open thread – February 2-3, 2018

by Alison Green on February 2, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. suspension retention*

    I’m off work today but no by choice. I got a reprimand and a one day suspension at work and now I’m thinking I need to find a new job. What happened was I have a co-worker who was diagnosed with cancer. She mentioned to a few people she started a blog so she wasn’t annoying people with cancer talk all the time and her family and friends could read what’s going on with her. The blog is called “Jane’s” cancer fight. I got into trouble for calling her out for using the word fight in her blog because it implies people who died from cancer are losers who lost the fight when it is hardly the case. I was just wanting her to check her choice of word and do better. She complained to our boss about me to her boss and got other people to complain too. I wasn’t trying to upset her but I just wanted to bring attention to her choice of the word fight. She says her support group of people who had or have cancer or lost someone to it picked the title. Since I admitted to HR when asked that I’ve never had cancer myself or had anyone close to me have it [I have had acquaintances and co-worker’s who’ve had it but never any family members or close friends] and I’m not close to Jane, I was told I have no right to question Jane and no idea what I’m talking about. I didn’t intend to upset her by pointing it out. When I come back after my suspension I will be sent to a different team away from Jane and since the job/pay/location of the office are the exact same I have no legal leg to stand on. I’m feeling a little dumbfounded it went as far as a suspension. Do you think I’m right to be dumbfounded or did I cross the line? I have an issue with her word choice and not her. I’m using my suspension time off to look for a new job but I just wanted an outside perspective re: my situation and her choice of word. I’ve never been disciplined at work like this. Everyone at work thinks I should not have called her and no one is talking to me unless it is about work.

    1. Bad Candidate*

      I’m not sure it necessitated a suspension, but I don’t think you should have called her out either.

      1. Murphy*

        ^ This. I think you were wrong to say that to Jane, but your company’s reaction seems a little extreme.

      2. Samiratou*

        Agreed. It was out of line to comment on it, but it sounds like it got taken waaaay too far. It should have been a “this wasn’t your place, please don’t bring it up again” and apology to Jane and everyone moves on.

        1. Jesca*

          Yeah, I was wondering about their kind of nuclear response as well.

          OP, were you just called in and told this the first time management brought it up to you? Or were you told after at least one initial discussion?

          1. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

            Or, OP, did you double down in justifying why you did it when called out? I would suspend someone if they dug in after I brought up an issue

        2. Snark*

          That’s probably what would have happened if Suspension Retention hadn’t doubled down on it with HR.

            1. INTP*

              Same. Suspending and then re-distributing her for one dumb comment would have been overkill, but honestly, I can see why they wouldn’t force Jane to work alongside someone that continues to be antagonistic about Jane’s verbiage about her cancer. (I know OP isn’t trying to be antagonistic for the hell of it, she’s probably thinking of the feelings of people whose cancer is terminal or whose loved ones have died, but that’s how this kind of thing is going to be perceived.)

            2. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

              Me too. Is they said to HR what they said here, I can see why a suspension happened.

          2. Hills to Die on*

            Yeah, calling it out in the first place is pretty…outrageous. Then doubling down with HR is extra bad. I can see where this happened if they felt like they weren’t getting through to you. I’m not sure I would have given you a suspension, but they had to do something to ensure you wouldn’t do this again and steps 1 and 2 went nowhere. That’s how it sounds to me anyway.

      3. MuseumChick*

        This. Suspension Retention, you were in the wrong here. You don’t tell someone with a major, life threatening illness what words they can and cannot sure to describe what they are going through. I do think they went a little far if this is the first, and only time, you have done something like this.

        1. Emi.*

          I agree, but even so, it sounds like you’ve burned a lot of bridges so it’s probably good that you’re looking for a new job—not because this one is so unreasonable, but because you seem to have blown it up.

            1. serenity*

              The bridge with management? Or with colleagues? Cause I think, as far as coworkers are concerned, that bridge is gone.

                1. HRM*

                  I think it’s possible the bridge with coworkers could be rebuilt with a sincere apology and the passage of time, assuming this is the only incident and something like this never happens again.

            1. Emi.*

              Right, but “Everyone at work thinks I should not have called her and no one is talking to me unless it is about work” sounds like the end of your work relationships.

      4. INTP*

        This. Calling her out was definitely wrong. Suspension and moving you to a new team seems over the top for the original event – but, while I don’t know the entire sequence of events, I’m wondering if that wasn’t their original decision but was made after you stood by your words rather than admitting you were wrong to call her out and apologizing immediately.

        1. Amy S*

          I’m guessing the move was due to the 1.) Doubling down and 2.) creating a better work environment for Jane.

        2. Safetykats*

          I’m wondering if this is the first time something like this has happened. It sounds like it had to have gotten pretty out of hand, if “nobody” is talking to OP. But being transferred on top of being suspended sounds like the conversations HR had with the rest of the group led them to believe the relationships weren’t reasonably repairable – and that doesn’t generally happen based on one bad interaction.

          OP, I would take a good look at how you’re interacting with your coworkers. Maybe try hard not to be “calling out” anybody in the future. While there are situations in which it might be reasonable to insert yourself – for example, if a coworker is doing or saying something that is hurtful or damaging to another coworker – it really sounds like you’re just calling out people you don’t agree with, and in ways that may be hurtful or damaging to them. Since you can’t see that, your best bet is to try to silent if you can’t be supportive.

      5. puzzld*

        As a former cancer patient… I hate the “fight” and the adulation that sometimes goes with “cancer survivor” but I would NEVER tell someone they are doing cancer wrong, writing, speaking, treating. This is Jane’s cancer and if the fight metaphor works for her I’ll help her strap on her boxing gloves.

        The suspension and reassignment may have been over the top, but we don’t know the context. Have you sad insensitive, inappropriate things to Jane and/or others before? Anyway, yeah, I’d be thinking about looking elsewhere because you may find this tough to live down. Especially since you don’t seem to “get” where you went wrong. If you were sorry and able to sincerely apologize for a totally tone deaf incident OK. But you seem to be doubling down.

        1. TV Researcher*

          Same boat. I was diagnosed in May and find it uncomfortable to hear myself described as a fighter, especially because a co-worker passed away from cancer about six months after my own diagnosis. And I didn’t fight my cancer better than she did. I just got lucky in that I got a “better” type of cancer.

          But, then, I also hate when folks use the word brave to describe my situation. But, I guess the difference is that I get to decide what words to use to describe my situation and I’d be miffed if someone told me that the word I used to describe my situation was wrong.

          To the OP, I’d just apologize and keep my head down.

          1. Geillis D*

            I’m so sorry to hear about your co-worker, and wishing you an easy-as-possible route to recovery.

            I hope I’m not being tone-deaf (please tell me if I do) but as a mother of two very small former preemies, I have the same reaction whenever preemies are described as “fighters” or when their parents are “strong” and “brave”. My kids did not fight any harder than their NICU mates, who sadly didn’t make it, or survived with life-long disabilities. I wasn’t any stronger or braver than their moms.

            On the flip side, a family member was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and made the decision to not pursue treatment. That does not make them cowards, I have the utmost respect to their decision.

            For some reason it’s incredibly difficult to grasp that bad stuff will happen to people with no rhyme or reason, and there’s enough survivor’s guild as it is, no need to stoke it. But again, everyone is doing their own thing.

            1. Safetykats*

              I think people just apply the words that seem to work for them. When my aunt decided, after her cancer retuned following many years of remission, that she was not going to go through chemo again, she told us she “was tired of fighting.” She lived the rest of her life on her own terms, which takes a hell of a lot of courage.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          It’s like the rule here about not jumping on letter writers for not using the exact perfect words that convey the exact perfect tone. Is Jane a friend who asked your input on the title before it went up? Then you can share your thoughts. Is she a work acquaintance who didn’t ask your opinion of her cancer vocabulary? Then you can have the thought in your head, and don’t need to share it with Jane.

        3. Anon Accountant*

          Same here. Cancer runs in my family and some relatives have said “fighting cancer” because it made them feel more “powerful” against their illness. If using those terms make someone feel better or helps them cope with a devastating illness then use them.

        4. nonegiven*

          You tell yourself what you have to, to get through it. Not everyone has the same needs for self talk. Sometimes you need the pep talk, sometimes you need a tranquilizer and Garbage cranked up really loud.

      6. LBG*

        Agree, this definitely falls into the “not my circus, not my monkeys” category. Why you thought you had any stakeholder claim to do this is beyond my comprehension. Why do people “care” so much about things that are so disconnected from themselves is a real point of confusion for me.

        1. Annoyed*

          Because they think they need to “check” their word choice and “do better.”

          I know we aren’t supposed to jump on the LWs and I’m trying here but I am seething with wanting to grab her, shake her around, and literally scream “who do you think you are?”

          One conversation one day where I said my son “died” someone not even remotely connected to me, or him, and who wasn’t really even part of the conversation proper was “triggered” by the word “died” and insisted I should say “passed/passed away” instead. Really? GTFHO!

      7. NNFN*

        Seriously. Also, there’s a difference between commenting on her word choice and “calling her out” on her word choice. Now I may be picking at word choice, but calling someone out sounds very adversarial.
        Commenting on it could have been done in an appropriate manner. I’d still question why you thought it was necessary, but if you felt strongly about “fight” being a hurtful word to use there are ways you could bring it up.
        I don’t think there’s any appropriate way to “call her out.”

        1. ContentWrangler*

          Also, it’s way over the top to find it necessary to “call out” something as insignificant as the title of a women’s personal blog meant mainly to serve as a journal and update for family/friends. This isn’t some national charity called Cancer Fight awarding gold medals to those who beat cancer. This is a woman dealing with a difficult disease who just wanted an outlet. You want her to check her choice of words and “do better”? You should check yourself.

    2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

      Sorry to say I do think you were out of line by taking this up with Jane. I’ve heard people object to the “fight” terminology, but I think there are appropriate times/places/venues to raise it, and with a coworker who actually has cancer is not the way to go about it, especially when you yourself have never been in her or her family’s shoes. I think a sincere apology to Jane is in order.

        1. Jesca*

          Well and one word can have multiple meanings depending on the context. Not every time the word “fight” or “battled” is invoked does it suggest the person is a loser for not “winning”. We can’t go around fighting all of the idiosyncrasies of the English language or we would never get anything else done! We just don’t have a word to describe someone fighting off a disease.

          1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

            Yeah, I have no issue with “fight” myself, but I can see why people with personal experiences with cancer are sometimes sensitive to it. But it’s not the place of a non-cancer-affected person to tell a cancer survivor to “do better” on their word choice, in any case.

            1. Coalea*

              Yeah, I agree that the OP was totally in the wrong to question Jane’s use of the word “fight,” and the the “do better” comment really took things over the top for me. Completely tone deaf.

          2. Anon for this*

            Exactly. in fact OP is being offensive in a way by saying that people who lose a fight are “losers”. Is OP saying that fallen soldiers are “losers”? Is op saying that people who do their best but come in second are “losers”? It could certainly be taken that way.

          3. Triplestep*

            Yes, this is what I was thinking. I do get why cancer patients and those close to them might not appreiate having the word “fight” applied to their treatment, but “loser” is not the opposite of “fighter”. Not sure how we arrive at the implication that those who died must be “losers” if those in treatment are “fighters”.

            Regardless, the OP was out of line, and the reaction from the employer tells me there may have been other problems there.

            1. ExceptionToTheRule*

              After pondering this overnight, this is as true an observation as there is on this thread. We’re all going to die. Life is a terminal condition. Dying is not “losing” at life.

      2. Typhon Worker Bee*

        Came here to say the same thing. I think it’s fine to call out journalists, hospitals, physicians, researchers, charities/fundraisers, and others who use that terminology (I 100% agree with you that it’s extremely problematic), but not people who are in active cancer treatment.

        1. focusfriday*

          Right. In my work, we publish things about life with cancer, and we’re very conscious of avoiding those phrases. When dealing with a patient story, though? People can use their own words to describe what they are going/have gone through. And as I understand it, this was your co-worker’s personal life, so not something where your feedback was requested or–clearly–wanted. If I were dealing with cancer and a co-worker went out of their way to tell me I was doing it wrong, I would be upset.

    4. selina kyle*

      It does seem like you might’ve nit-picked word choice on someone who is already going through a lot.

    5. Laura*

      “Calling out” someone who has cancer over their word-choice on their personal blog seems very ill-advised.

    6. Grouchy Old Lady*

      eek! This is a tough situation. Their reaction seems very extreme but I wasn’t there. I would have thought an apology and a “don’t do it again” would be enough. I think you crossed the line in the away. You didn’t mean any harm but someone is going through presumably the most difficult time of their life and you criticized part of their coping mechanism.

    7. Trout 'Waver*

      Nitpicking word choice is against the commenting policy here because it just never goes anywhere productive.

      In your case, we have a real world example of why it’s a bad idea in general. I think you did cross a line on this one.

    8. Penny*

      I think you crossed the line. You’re nit-picking something that’s in her personal life. If it was an article for your work, yeah that’s something to bring up. But nothing something about her personal life.

      Also lots of people call it a fight against cancer; it’s not an uncommon phrase. A friend of mine had cancer and she said it quite regularly. And even as a friend, I would not have corrected her because it’s her life, her medical procedure, she can call it whatever she wants to encourage herself.

    9. Amadeo*

      So this was a personal blog she happened share with you and had little to do with work at all? I suppose it’s possible that Jane may have overracted, but I think with a new cancer diagnosis she’s going not have the bandwidth for shenanigans right now, and your nitpicking of her word choice for her personal blog was kind of uncalled for. You’re free to disagree with her word choice, but I think it was over the top to ‘call her out on it’, at work. I’m also curious as to how you went about this since it resulted in a suspension and, of all things, a relocation.

      Dude, it’s her personal blog, she’s just been diagnosed with cancer, leave her alone. She can use the word ‘fight’ if she wants to.

    10. LKW*

      You wanted her to check her choice of words when it’s her fight, her cancer and her life?

      You do not need to express all of your thoughts and get everyone to see your “side” of things – especially when it’s not work related.

      Clearly this wasn’t some softly tossed comment – you upset her to the point where you received a suspension and they are moving you to a completely different team.

      I think you’re not telling the whole story and your part in this.

      1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

        “You do not need to express all of your thoughts and get everyone to see your “side” of things – especially when it’s not work related.”

        Oh my God, THIS. My mom used to say two things when I was growig up:

        1. We have private thoughts for a reason
        2. Not everything that goes through your head has to come out of your mouth

        Honestly, it’s such an insensitive and unkind thing to nitpick the word choice of someone who has cancer, combined with your company’s response to suspend/move you I have to wonder if they saw this more as a pattern of behavior rather than a one-off situation. If so they would have done well to point it out to you before this, but I think it’s worth reflecting on how often you’ve “corrected” co-workers like this in the past. It may well have been the last straw for them.

        1. Health Insurance Nerd*

          “Not everything that goes through your head has to come out of your mouth”

          I kind of love your mom. This is such a good saying.

            1. Pretend Scientist*

              Not quite the same, but Judge Judy says something in a similar vein: “God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason”

        2. anonami*

          Haha, my mom said something very similar to me but I was in my twenties. She may have put it while I was younger but I have no recollection of this.

          Her way of putting it, though was just because you have a thought anonami does not mean that you have to share it

      2. Youngin*

        “Clearly this wasn’t some softly tossed comment”

        I 100% agree. It seems like there is more to the story or maybe some negative previous history we don’t know about. It seems weird that her comment (while unacceptable, rude and unsympathetic) warranted her being removed from her department and a suspension

          1. Luna*

            I mean if they are willing to tell a cancer patient to “do better” when talking about their own cancer I don’t even want to think about all the other words they probably take issue with. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if there had been other complaints.

      3. Anonyna*

        “You wanted her to check her choice of words when it’s her fight, her cancer and her life?”
        This. This 1000x. OP, it takes a person secure with themselves to the point of fault to tell a cancer victim how they can cancer victim better. I’m floored that when a coworker is talking about their fight for their life, all you can muster up is “your wording is offensive”. I’m actually not surprised you’ve been moved to another team at all; if I were Jane I’d want to be nowhere near you. Humility and empathy are useful tools in both personal and professional life; perhaps you could gain some while apologizing to Jane and trying to make things right with management and coworkers.

    11. Parenthetically*

      Wow. The correct response to hearing about that is either polite silence if you can’t think of anything constructive to say, or a kind hope that her blog will be helpful to her and others. The correct response is definitely not to “call her out,” apparently publicly no less, especially not when by your own admission you have zero personal experience of a battle with cancer, over a euphemism.

      2. WonderingHowIGotHere*

        All that went through my head was that scene from Bambi where little Thumper was made to quote his father
        “If you can’t say nothing nice, don’t say nothing at all.”

        Come on, if a baby rabbit in a 75 year old movie can get it, surely professional adults should too.

    13. Nervous Accountant*

      You did cross a line. It’s one thing to discuss it in an anonymous thread (maybe it’s coem up here in open threads, I’m not sure) but to say it directly to someone who’s battling cancer is…..Pretty out there.

    14. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      In my opinion, yes, you crossed a line. Yeah, you could totally interpret that title as the way you are, but it’s nitpicky and unkind. So why do it? Your best bet right now is to sincerely apologize, wish her the best, and then leave her alone. Since you currently do not understand why you were out of line however, you need to work on that. That said, they over reacted as well, unless you were really more obnoxious about it that you make it sound.

      1. Jaguar*

        Yeah, this is my suggestion. Spend the time coming to the realization of what you did was wrong and why, and when you’ve gotten there, make right with Jane by offering her a sincere apology. This is how you fix the situation.

    15. Likely*

      Honestly, what you said was really insensitive. My grandmother has cancer, and it really is a fight every step of the way for her. She feels like she’s at war with her own body. She has had to force herself to eat when she could barely keep anything down, and when she’s undergoing treatment she looks hollow and drained all the time. It’s not like she was assigning the word “fight” to anyone else’s experience with cancer – just her own, because it feels that way. Calling her out like you did is extremely invalidating of her experience, and it’s no surprise it was so upsetting.

      As for whether you should have been suspended, well. I kind of understand that too. It seems like your relationship is primarily as coworkers – not as friends – and you came across as attacking her about a very personal, already upsetting health situation when it would have been far more appropriate to stay out of it.

      1. Where's the Le-Toose?*

        This comment captures everything I wanted to say on the subject. +1.

        And wishing the best for your grandmother!

      2. EddieSherbert*

        +1

        I lost my brother to cancer and I don’t mind the “fight” terminology. We used it all the time with him because it was an accurate description for his situation, and we don’t see him as a “loser” for passing away. Just unlucky.

        Good vibes for your grandma!

    16. fposte*

      I’m not overfond of the trend to call it a “fight” myself, and I understand the differentiation you’re making intellectually; I also know you’re feeling a bit stunned right now. But in real life that differentiation is not one that matters, and she doesn’t have to “check her choices” or “do better.” You told a cancer patient she was talking about her disease wrong, and co-workers are mad at you because that was a considerable unkindness to somebody ill and it makes people uncertain about what else you’d consider more important than other people’s feelings.

      It’s not enough not to intend to upset people. This doesn’t impact your work, and it doesn’t impact you at all anywhere near the way it does her; even if you were an authority on the terminology, which you’re not, it’s madly inappropriate to “correct” her. What I’d do if you were one of my staffers could be any number of things, but you were way out of line.

        1. ExceptionToTheRule*

          My mother died of cancer in early May after being diagnosed in late February. 10 weeks from diagnosis to death. My brother took the “you’re not fighting hard enough route” and got himself written out of her will for being an insensitive jerk. And was then surprised by it.

          1. Snark*

            I can see the place of fear of impending loss that welled up out of, but actually saying it to the person…..yeahhhhhhhhh, that gets you written out.

              3. Lora*

                A disappointing number of people think like this. Which is why I don’t share any medical stuff with a lot of people, including folks I used to count as friends.

              4. Kelly*

                Sorry for your loss. It’s hard losing someone that fast.

                My mom died from cancer in 2016. She had been in remission for over a year before it came back and had spread beyond the original site. The doctors caught it beginning of July, although in retrospect the signs where there starting in April that it had come back and she died first part of October. The last month was the worst because it was obvious that nothing was working and it was only a matter of time. We didn’t expect everything to happen so suddenly.

          3. paul*

            Someone made a similar comment after my gramma passed; I thought I was going to have to bail mom out of jail to make the funeral.

          4. a different Vicki*

            I’m sorry for your loss, and for your brother’s cluelessness–both in saying that, and in being surprised that your mother reacted the way she did.

        2. Triumphant Fox*

          There is something so incredibly tone-deaf about this situation that I’m not really surprised at the suspension. It’s telling that HR asked OP about any stake with regards to cancer – Any relatives/friends/animals suffering or having lost the battle with cancer? No? Ok, then.

          OP seems to be treating this as an intellectual issue, when it is fundamentally not. Digging in your heels and confronting to a suffering person to the point where you’re both judging them (Do better!) and questioning the very way they understand their own suffering is a serious signal to management. The thing is, OP didn’t apologize, confess to HR that this was misguided and doesn’t have an emotional reason that explains this inappropriate behavior. In that situation, I get why serious action was taken and this person was removed from working with Jane.

          Cancer (and chronic illness in general) is also SO impacted by the energy/support/attitude of those around you. As a manager, I can imagine wanting to create an environment that was as conducive to my employee’s recovery as possible and removing someone who was actively questioning/challenging/judging that employee from the situation would be on that list.

          1. Akcipitrokulo*

            I think HR was being very sensitive here… realising it was a pretty horrific thing to call out someone fighting cancer for word use (and she IS fighting cancer because that’s how SHE defines her own situation) … but also wanting not to be harsh if OP was dealing with it herself. Their response would have been very different if the answer was “my mother has cancer, she isn’t going to get better and gets very upset by that word…”

            Then they’d probably have gently explained why you don’t behave like this, and could have been able to smooth things over with colleague (“I know, she was wrong to say it, but here is context… are you ok if we have a word and leave it there?”)

            1. CEMgr*

              Yes, I think you’re right, HR was being compassionate by looking for an angle that could possibly mitigate the offense. And didn’t find one.

              1. Anna Held*

                I disagree. Everyone needs to be treated equally — it shouldn’t matter who that person is, or what their experiences are (or are willing to discuss with HR), it’s about what they said and how they said. And HR should absolutely know this! If OP had lied and said she’d lost her beloved grandma to cancer, would it all have been OK? I don’t know why they pried that much into it in the first place. I’m surprised it wasn’t just a reprimand once the OP had admitted she’d said it. Why ask about relatives at all?

                I think everyone’s overreacting. Maybe OP is 100% at fault, but maybe it’s a toxic environment and the OP chose a very poor way to push back (it happens, and it’s clear people don’t always realize they’re in a toxic environment). OP, time for some soul-searching as well as job searching. But this might be for the best in more ways than you realize.

                2. McWhadden*

                  Context always matters. It is not remotely logical to treat everyone the same as you are suggesting.

                  If OP had lost a loved one to cancer her objection would make more sense with that context. She would have heard Jane suggesting her loved one just didn’t fight hard enough. That is needed context. It would make OP’s otherwise baffling actions somewhat understadnable.

                  But OP didn’t she just wanted to correct a woman facing the prospect of her own mortality about the words she chose.

    17. JokeyJules*

      I don’t think you should have “called her out” either. She didn’t ask for your opinion on her choice of the use of the word, and that wasn’t your business to call her out on.

    18. Been there*

      It was probably not a good choice to call her on it. But I lost my dad to cancer and wholeheartedly support the effort to get people to stop using “fight.” My dad didn’t die because he didn’t fight hard enough, he died because cancer sometimes kills no matter what.

      1. anna green*

        Yes! 100% agree. My mother in law died of cancer, and I feel the same way. And yes, it was also not a good choice to call her on it.

      2. Snark*

        Sure. But if that framing makes sense to the patient, and they need that adversarial relationship with it to get through, that’s their choice. Where I think it makes sense to push back on this is with well-meaning others try to impose that framing as a pep talk. A good friend of mine died of pancreatic cancer, a variety that is basically not survivable, and he had friends and family that were like “YOU GONNA BEAT THIS THING WOO” and he’s like “No, actually, I’m probably going to die sooner than later, so please cut the shit, thanks.” And they needed the callout. But I would not dare demand a cancer patient “do better.”

        1. paul*

          Yep.

          I’ve framed some of my health issues as fights. That doesnt’ mean I think I’ll win; god knows I’ve lost physical fights too, can’t win every time. And with anxiety it’s more a long running stalemate where I fight to keep it in check.

          But it’s a framing that works for me and if someone tells me not to use it, the hell with them.

        2. Been there*

          Not sure where the “do better” quote came from. That was not in my comment anywhere, prehaps you misplaced your reply.

            1. Been there*

              Ok, got it. I wouldn’t dare call a cancer patient on that either if that is how they need to frame. I was just trying to point out how the warrior/fighter stance around cancer feels to those whose loved ones don’t make it. I understand people saying it doesn’t make anyone a loser, but it honestly feels that way sometimes, like they just should have fought harder. It is just hard, cancer sucks.

              1. Snark*

                It does suck. And like I said, I totally share your reservations with that narrative and framing device, as it’s commonly understood.

              2. Jesca*

                I understand. trust me I soooo do. But the warrior stance isn’t about any of us. It is about the person going through it.

                1. Been there*

                  If that’s the stance THEY choose. Many people pushed “fight it” “you’ll beat this” on my dad.

        3. Jesca*

          My sister-in-law is dying of cancer. My siblings, their significant others, and myself are all very close. The first time around it was a “fight” to her. The first time it came it back was less of a “fight” mentality and more of an “be aware that not all the stats presenting are accurate for cancer survival”. This last time, it is more of a “live the life you have while you still have time” mentality. (from diagnosis to now it has been like only 4 years). None of those responses are wrong as it is a personal choice. Just like you can’t tell a person with cancer to “suck it up” or “fight it”, you also cannot tell them not to look at it like it is a “fight”. They are the ones going through it and it is their choice in how they chose to label it.

      3. Observer*

        I agree with you. I commented on this just this week (on the post about a cancer survivor who invalidates everyone else in the place.)

        That doesn’t make what Suspension did at all appropriate. There is a time and a place for efforts of this nature. And calling out the cancer patient WHEN SHE IS JUST STARTING HER TRIAL is so far from the right place, that it’s “in a galaxy far, far away”. And then the OP seems to have doubled down on it – there was clearly a conversation with HR about it, but no apology. And, the OP still doesn’t see that she was out of line and STILL thinks that it’s ok for her to expect a cancer sufferer to “do better”.

      4. Spider*

        Amen.

        Kind of a funny story in retrospect…. My mother died of cancer a few years ago and loathed any kind of “warfare” terminology about her illness, and she was very open about this –she was a dyed-in-the-wool anti-war pacifist and was deeply uncomfortable with analogizing her experience with cancer to a soldier in combat. Not surprisingly, she was adamant that the phrase “battle with cancer” not appear in her obituary.

        She was also an active member of a Unitarian Universalist church full of other dyed-in-the-wool anti-war pacifists, to the point where the whole congregation frequently marched together in protest marches during the early years of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

        After she passed away, I wrote her obituary for the newspapers, her college alumni bulletin, and her remembrance card for the memorial service at her UU church, and of course I respected her wishes regarding terminology. I hadn’t realized that the UU church would write their own obituary for her in their newsletter, and guess what their opening phrase was? JUST GUESS.

        “After a long battle with cancer…”

        Goddammit.

        (My mom would have found this funny, though, so I didn’t mind…too much!)

        1. Samata*

          I think that memory will make you smile for many years. The ironic ones usually do when you look back.

        2. Typhon Worker Bee*

          A late online friend, the much-missed Jeanne Sather, wrote her own obituary to avoid this kind of language. She wrote some lovely posts about that process, but sadly the blog archives are no longer available.

          Some related quotes & posts I managed to find:

          ‘Let’s start with the cliches: “Died after a long and courageous battle with cancer.” Everyone who dies of cancer is automatically brave. Read the obituaries, you’ll see what I mean.

          Notice all the military metaphors and male imagery? Why is that?’

          http://archive.seattleweekly.com/2003-12-10/news/running-with-fear/ (scroll down to Soapbox #5: the Language of Cancer)

          ‘No one ever dies after a “brief, cowardly skirmish” with cancer, she said laughing in a recent interview. But she’s still hoping for a better alternative, maybe “lived well with cancer,” or “died after her long dance with cancer has come to an end.”‘

          http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/To-be-dead-sure-you-get-the-last-word-write-your-1134445.php

          (I miss Jeanne. I started reading her blog after I got a new job in a breast cancer research department, and was suddenly working on clinical research projects for the first time, rather than just lab-based science. I wanted a patient’s perspective, went googling, and found a treasure trove of thoughtful writing about cancer that changed a lot of my thinking.

          When the internet’s good, it’s really really good).

          2. Triumphant Fox*

            “Died after her long dance with cancer” … I just love this in a way I didn’t expect. Thanks for sharing.

            1. StevieIsWondering*

              LOVE “the brief, cowardly skirmish” and “dance with cancer”; those made me laugh.

      6. Jaguar*

        Some fights are unwinnable. Describing a fight with cancer doesn’t imply that if someone dies from it they didn’t fight hard enough. In a literal fight, you can fight twice as hard as your opponent and lose. I really don’t understand this sensitivity to describing going through treatment for something as a fight.

        1. Typhon Worker Bee*

          Part of it is that the “fighting” language from family, friends, and the media can pressure some people to opt for more aggressive treatments than they might be truly comfortable with. Sometimes it’s in a person’s best interest to make the most of the time they have, and start thinking about palliative care a lot sooner, than it is to go through extra rounds of very debilitating treatment with poor long-term success rates. There’s some research out there about how doctors and other medical professionals with poor prognoses tend to opt for fewer rounds of treatment than the general public – they know that in some situations, less is more.

          This is all of course hugely dependent on the specific diagnosis and the individual person. My FIL chose the acceptance/palliative care route, because he’d seen friends go through horrible side effects for treatments that would buy him a few extra months at most. It was the best choice for him and for the family.

          1. Jaguar*

            Okay, I can understand that. Thanks.

            Speaking to the broader conversation people are having, though, I don’t think it rises to the level telling people what they should and shouldn’t say. All language is persuasive and interpretive. One person’s freshened the house up is another person’s doing chores. Telling people what language to use because some people might make the decisions they otherwise wouldn’t seems like a poor standard. (I know you didn’t make any value judgement on whether or not to police other’s language)

          2. ExceptionToTheRule*

            This was my mom’s situation. One doctor who didn’t want to do any chemo & one who was willing to try something. All chemo did was make Mom sick. The cancer still spread like ditch weed in the spring. She isn’t any less dead and I’m left wondering how much chemo may have shortened what time she had left.

            HOWEVER, it made Mom feel better to try and there was no way I’d have said anything that would have taken away her hope.

      7. Kelly*

        My mom passed away from cancer and I also don’t like the term “fight”. I have family that uses that term and when they do, my response is a succinct “cancer sucks”. The one family member that uses that term does have a tendency to latch on to anyone with an illness or injury and try to play caregiver, regardless of how the person feels about both her and their illness.

    19. Susan K*

      Yes, you were out of line for arguing about her blog’s title. This poor woman has just received some of the worst health news a person can get and is preparing for a really rough time, and nitpicking the way she describes it is pretty insensitive. I can definitely understand Jane being upset about it. I don’t think using the word “fight” is at all offensive to people who have died from cancer (and I do have family members and friends who have died from cancer), and it is a commonly-used term for people being treated for cancer.

      Now, whether or not the discipline was warranted depends a lot on the circumstances. If you just said once that you didn’t like the title of her blog because of the implications about people who have died from cancer, that probably wouldn’t warrant disciplinary action. It sounds, however, as though you may have argued extensively and/or repeatedly about this, which may have made Jane feel harassed about her health problems, and I can see how your manager and/or HR would sympathize with her and want to protect her from being attacked for this.

      1. MsM*

        Or at the very least, they might not have wanted Jane to decide she was being harassed and the company wasn’t doing enough to prevent it.

      2. Rat Racer*

        This! OP, I think we’re missing a lot of the context around what your interaction was like with Jane. We can all acknowledge that it was unwise to nit-pick Jane’s word choice on her personal blog. But your question isn’t about whether you were in the wrong, it’s about whether your company over-reacted.

        When Jane went to management did you back down or escalate? I think the legitimacy of your company’s reaction really depends on the nature and dynamics of this conflict.

    20. DCompliance*

      “I got into trouble for calling her out” …your own words. Why would you feel the need to call her out? If you felt so strongly about this, you should have least approached her in a more delicate manner.

    21. AP*

      You were very rude to someone diagnosed with cancer, and is trying to come to terms with it via a blog, by nitpicking a word choice and telling them that they were wrong to use a word you disagree with.

      At the very least, your timing was very, very poor. But poor timing and what comes off as telling someone that their way of coping with a cancer diagnosis is ‘wrong’… well, I don’t really think this discipline is out of line, though a bit on the harsher side of the bell curve.

      This is the sort of thing where you might just eyeroll and move on, if you feel strongly about it. You’re in a professional environment, is it worth picking a fight over someone’s word choice in a severe life event? It’s poor judgment.

    22. The Person from the Resume*

      This shouldn’t be a work issue because you should not have called a co-worker out about the name of her personal blog at work.

      You called what you did “calling out” that seems harsh for a woman with cancer. And it also sounds like you doubled down and argued when she didn’t agree.

      Maybe work overreacted; maybe work didn’t. Your details are too vague to guess but suspension should not be for something mild so someone (other than Jane) thought you pushed too hard on someone who’s fighting cancer. Note: “Fighting cancer” is a common usage. Like fighting a cold and other similar usages

    23. it_guy*

      Of my Mom’s 7 brothers and sisters, everyone has had or died from cancer, so I don’t think the word choice inappropriate, because they are literally in a fight for their lives. I don’t think it was appropriate to call Jane out, but I feel it even more inappropriate to take it to the level of a reprimand.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        There is a war between life and death going on inside a person’s body. What else would you call it? Some people win fights, just like some nations win wars. Not really sure what you hoped to accomplish by telling her to use a different word.

      2. neverjaunty*

        …you think reprimanding someone for “calling out” a cancer patient is worse than the “calling out” itself? Really, why?

        1. Samata*

          I took it as it_guy saying taking it to the level of reprimanding Jane for her word choice, not the reprimand the company laid down, but I could have misread it.

          1. it_guy*

            What I intended to say was the word choice of was not out of line, so I didn’t see a problem with it. Calling out Jane wasn’t appropriate, and reprimanding the OP wasn’t appropriate.

            A trifecta.

            1. Akcipitrokulo*

              Reprimanding was absolutely appropriate – and probably HR are looking at protecting themselves – they cannot allow cancer patients to feel bullied by colleagues.

    25. ExcelJedi*

      To be honest, depending on how you ‘called her out’ – that is, if it was as confrontational as that phrase sounds – I would have probably suspended someone, too. If you just mentioned it to her once and let it go, I think that was really bad judgement but not suspension-worthy.

    26. Shoe Ruiner*

      I think your company’s reaction was extreme. I think you are allowed to have an opinion on word choice regardless of if you or someone you love has had cancer – you are allowed to think through things and decide how you feel about them. This idea of “well you never went through X so you don’t get to have an opinion” really bugs me in all circumstances.

      And I think it was inappropriate and insensitive for you to call out a coworker. Consider time/place/manner/relationship and what there was to gain from saying something.

      1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        Nobody is depriving anyone of simply having an opinion. What a strawman.

        1. Natalie*

          I think it’s coming from this portion:

          Since I admitted to HR when asked that I’ve never had cancer myself or had anyone close to me have it […] I was told I have no right to question Jane

          which *is* terrible logic, since having personal experience with cancer isn’t remotely the point. The OP’s correction of her coworker would have been inappropriate no matter how much personal experience with cancer OP had, since it’s never a permission slip to tell someone else how to frame and approach their own experience.

          I get what Shoe Ruiner was reacting to because I rolled my eyes a bit at that part too. But regardless, it’s a bit of a red herring since it sounds like the OP has bigger issues to deal with at this workplace.

          1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

            I know what part of the post it’s coming from. HR wasn’t having this chat for OP simply ~having an opinion~, it was for “calling out” Jane. It was valid of them to ask about OP’s own experience, since, while it would be inappropriate regardless, knowing that background would help HR better understand how the situation arose and figure out how best to respond.

            1. Natalie*

              Eh, disagree that it was relevant in the way it was phrased, but there’s also not much benefit in pulling apart language we’re hearing third hand. I just didn’t find Shoe Ruiner to be constructing a strawman argument, that’s all.

              1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

                Strawman may not have been the correct rhetorical term, but framing it as OP not being “allowed to have an opinion” is patently absurd.

                1. Shoe Ruiner*

                  Hi! I think my frustration with that part of the post overshadowed the point I wanted to make, which is that not every opinion needs to be shared. Did not mean to derail the conversation or distract with absurdity.

                2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

                  @Shoe Ruiner, sorry I didn’t respond to your post in full and that my initial reply was flip. I appreciate the point you’re making about the distinction between having an opinion and sharing an opinion. I agree that a loved one with cancer shouldn’t be a get-out-of-screwup-free card, but I can understand why HR would want that background when figuring out how to address the situation without trying to shame OP for having an opinion on something outside of their experience.

                3. Shoe Ruiner*

                  No need to apologize, it’s all good. I hurt my point by burying it under some not-necessarily-related frustration, I see that now.
                  Thank you for that perspective on where HR might have been coming from – I definitely did not give them the benefit of the doubt there.

          2. Nita*

            Maybe HR asked this question to figure out if there were some extenuating circumstances, for example whether OP had their judgment clouded by losing someone to cancer.

            1. Shoe Ruiner*

              That’s a good point, I didn’t consider that angle. I interpreted it with less-good intentions which may not be fair.

            2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

              This is my thought, and if OP had lost a loved one to cancer, HR might have made them aware of an EAP, for example.

              1. Anony*

                If something has affected you personally, you are more likely to have an emotional reaction and not necessarily exhibit good judgement. HR probably would have handled the situation with more compassion if that were the case. But it generally isn’t a good idea to have an academic debate with someone who is personally affected. It is likely to come off as callous.

            3. Bostonian*

              Yep. I interpreted that as HR determining if OP personally felt offended/hurt by Jane’s word choice because of something personal.

              1. Annoyed*

                Even if OP was personally hurt by Jane’s word choice, it is Jane’s personal blog.

                OP has no stake, no standing, no place regarding Jane’s choice of language. Full stop.

                OP way overstepped with the misguided idea that their opinion should matter. It does not.

                Considering the long missive trying to justify things to us, I can only imagine the floor of the HR office has gouges in it from how firmly OP’s heels dug in when reprimanded.

                If I were Jane I wouldn’t want OP anywhere near me again, ever. The transfer is a good thing.

            4. CEMgr*

              Yes, I agree that this is a likely explanation. HR was acting out of compassion and looking for possible mitigation of the OP’s actions.

          3. Shoe Ruiner*

            Thank you! Yes, that’s what I bristled at. I think my frustration at that overshadowed the rest of my point. I agree with the other points being made that not every opinion needs to be shared. The way I wrote my post ma have distracted from that point, which was not my intention.

          4. Slartibartfast*

            I think HR was looking for reasond to cut OP some slack. If they had a family member who had cancer and loathed the term, that would frame a reason to react as strongly as OP did to the word choice. It would also be a patch of common ground to rebuild bridges on.

            2. Aunt Piddy*

              That’s what I was assuming. Then HR could say to Jane, “I’m so sorry, Suspension retention recently lost their mother to cancer and she is especially sensitive to that kind of imagery right now,” or something similar. Instead it’s “Wow, Suspension retention decided to harangue a cancer patient over the wording of her personal cancer treatment blog for no reason other than semantics.”

            3. Bagpuss*

              Yes, I wanted to suggest this, it sounded to me as though they were looking for any extenuating circumstances.
              (we actually had a situation recently where we made a decision not to sack someone because we took into account their personal circumstances and the fact that those circumstances were likely to have affected their judgement. It was easier for us in that the victim in our case was one of the business owners, not an employee, which meant that they were aware of the surrounding situation,and also that they were involved in the decision about the outcome)

          5. Someone else*

            I think the point of asking that wasn’t that the outcome would be terribly different, nor that having personal connections makes the OP’s remarks more appropriate. I think the point was they may have communicated with OP slightly differently after asking. Like if it turned out to be one person with cancer quibbling with another person with cancer’s phrasing, then the discussion is maybe slightly softer, and about how you get to use whatever terms you deem appropriate for your own disease and leave other people to theirs. Or maybe they would’ve cut the OP some minor slack if it turned out this was more of a riled-due-to-own-personal-trauma-and-blurted scenario. It’d be a very subtle difference since the issue is still boundaries, but if there were some underlying reason (such as “I also have cancer and find that language upsetting”) I could maybe see it going in the direction of “that’s understandable but this is still unacceptable”.

          6. Akcipitrokulo*

            I think hr may have been lookung for mitugating factors as they wouldn’t have been harsh on someone who was objecting because of personal experience and dislike if the word from that.

      2. Snark*

        “This idea of “well you never went through X so you don’t get to have an opinion” really bugs me in all circumstances.”

        You can have an opinion on anything you please. But if that opinion is to police and invalidate a cancer patient’s word choice, having never faced a terminal health scare yourself to understand what headspace they’re in, the best choice is probably to keep that opinion firmly to oneself.

      3. Observer*

        Except the company didn’t tell her that she doesn’t get to have an opinion. They said that she doesn’t get to push her opinion on someone else!

        1. fposte*

          Yup. And pushing it at work about somebody’s private-life terminology about an experience that is legally protected. I suspect the suspension might be a reaction to fear of a hostile work environment claim.

          1. Jadelyn*

            I was thinking that, too – cancer is covered under the ADA, if I’m not mistaken. The company may be protecting themselves from a harassment claim by Jane, by demonstrating that they thoroughly disciplined the offender. More of a CYA than mere necessary discipline.

            2. Misa*

              Yes I was thinking this too. It feels like there is more to this story but regardless I can see enough here that HR likely felt it was important to take firm and clear action to protect Jane and themselves as a result.

      4. Not a Morning Person*

        Of course we all have opinions; we just don’t express all of them because we use our judgement on whether those opinions will be welcome, helpful, useful, or just cause ill will, hurt, or drama. I’ve heard it expressed as “Keep your opinion to yourself” and “Least said, easiest mended.”

        2. Akcipitrokulo*

          Also if your opinion is “the grandboss is ugly and incompetent and I wish he’d keep his red sports car away from everyone else because it’s just showing he’s having a mid life crisis” then assuming sharing that at work wouldn’t have consequences is naive to say the least :)

      5. Shoe Ruiner*

        I must have come off wrong, I didn’t realize. I really bristled at the part of the original post when the OP’s company asked if they or anyone they loved ever had cancer. I don’t think that matters in terms of how they acted. I agree they shouldn’t have called out their coworker, that was my last point. I wanted to say that both things can be true – you can think a thing, and not have to say a thing.

        1. Lalaroo*

          I think most people read the first part of your comment and got upset, then replied without reading the rest. You clearly wrote that what OP did was inappropriate and insensitive, so the only way the replies make sense is if people didn’t see the last bit.

          1. Shoe Ruiner*

            Thank you – I sort of buried my point under some frustration (for unrelated reasons, I am pretty sensitive about having opinions shut down) and I think I hurt my point in doing so. I can see why it happened, this is a really sensitive topic.

      6. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        There’s nothing about Suspension Retention being not “allowed to have an opinion” on this. Just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean you’re entitled to express it, and when you are not a cancer patient or close to any cancer patients, telling someone how they ought to frame their fight with cancer is in incredibly poor taste.

        Some opinions need to stay inside your head, at least while you’re at work.

      8. Violet*

        I don’t think that HR asking whether the OP or any of their friends/family have been through cancer was intended to determine if they could have a dissenting opinion. If Jane and OP were my employees and I asked OP this question, I would be trying to riddle out if the OP may have had such an extreme reaction because they were dealing with the loss of someone from cancer, and they were acting out due to grief – which might have meant that they would have been sympathetic and not suspended the OP.

    27. PR for Now*

      Woah, yeah, you leaped over the line. The biggest sticking point is that you’re not close to Jane and she is a coworker. Whatever your opinions are on her word choice in her personal blog about her cancer journey, they’re not welcome or needed. Navigating a cancer diagnosis and treatment is a super personal thing, she’s probably feeling vulnerable and your criticism of her word choice was hurtful to her. Sometimes being compassionate means keeping opinions to yourself and lending a listening ear. Good luck in your job search.

      1. Snark*

        A very, very close friend or family member might just barely be able to bring this up, if they approached it delicately and as a thoughtful and listening-heavy discussion. Maybe. A coworker’s standing to police a cancer patient’s word use is nonexistent.

        1. fposte*

          And even then, you don’t “call them out,” because they’re not making a mistake. They’re using a terminology that could be worthy of discussion, if you thought that discussion could be valuable in some way beyond merely convincing the other person of what you thought.

          1. Snark*

            Yep, exactly. If you thought that framing was – purely by way of example – not serving them well emotionally and were concerned that every time their condition worsened they were beating themselves up for not “fighting it” well enough, or something, then a close friend/family member could thoughtfully and sensitively bring it up. But “check your choices” and “do better” are not – not not not not not not NOT – part of that discussion.

            1. Jesca*

              Exactly. The person going through it gets to look at the way that works for them. If you see they are looking at the “fight” mentality like it is “win or I’m a failure” as opposed to “doing all I need and CAN do” type of thing, then yeah I think a conversation to reframe it then is warranty. People look at the word “fight” differently. A lot of times means “I’m going to do everything I can” but accept the outcome.

          2. Rat Racer*

            Yeah, what do you mean by “calling someone out” OP? Did you casually mention over email that her word-choice was problematic or did you confront Jane publicly leading to a heated argument?

    28. paul*

      You nitpicked someone’s word choice about dealing with an illness while they’re dealing with that serious illness. Yeah…I’d be side eyeing you too.

    29. Snark*

      Yeah, I’d take the administrative smack on the hand and the social fallout as a learning and personal growth opportunity, because calling out a cancer patient on how she chooses to frame her treatment and recovery period is staggeringly out of line. No, you had precisely zero right to question her or call her out on her language, regardless of how other cancer patients and survivors feel about that language as applied to their own situations. She has a right to use whatever word she deems best to frame her fight, recovery, struggle, or whatever it is, because it’s HERS. Your policing of that was aggressively sanctimonious and crashingly inappropriate, and I have no doubt she found it intensely upsetting, and am not surprised that your coworkers are aghast. And while suspension is a pretty strong reaction, I think one was merited, because you were far out of line.

      1. Snark*

        And if you can do so sincerely, you need to apologize to Jane thoroughly, specifically, and without qualifiers like “if I offended you.” And not in the “if I feed apologies into the machine, eventually it’ll drop me a forgiveness, right” mode of apology – you might not repair your relationships with these coworkers or with Jane. You just need to own and express contrition for the offense you caused.

    30. Temperance*

      I do think you crossed the line. She has cancer, and is calling her battle a fight. That’s fine! She gets to do that! You do not have cancer, and have never had cancer.

      It absolutely does not mean that people who die from cancer or related issues are “losers”. Sometimes, there are no winners.

    31. Undine*

      It sounds you doubled-down when you talked to HR. “I have an issue with her word choice and not her” is nowhere near “I’m really sorry she has cancer and I didn’t mean to say something that makes it harder for her to deal with it.” This was a time to just keep it to yourself. They may have concerns that you don’t understand how serious this was and that you may do it again.

      It also sounds like you’ve alienated your current coworkers to the point that it would be difficult to keep you on the team. Moving you to a different team could be the best thing for you, since working with people who don’t want to speak to you could be pretty horrible.

    32. Alpha Bravo*

      Yes. You were out of line. My spouse died of cancer and his last months absolutely were a fight. Not a fight to “beat” the cancer. That was not a battle he could win. He fought for more time with his family. I promise you this was no “loser.” This was a battle-scarred warrior who died fighting. Please learn from this, and in your own words, do better.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        In a similar idea, my husband pulled out all the stops to try to regain his health. He even went as far to get into a therapy pool to try to help his body along. The man did not swim and avoided pools all his life. I have never seen anyone work so hard and cast so many of their personal fears to one side in order to regain their health.
        Honestly, OP, I think if he heard someone debate the word fight, his response would be “Word choice is chump change. There are far bigger issues to deal with in every moment of every day.” In other words talking about word choice indicates the person seems to have no idea of the severity or the magnitude of the problem and all the work that is involved here.

      2. Where's the Le-Toose?*

        Not a fight to “beat” the cancer. That was not a battle he could win. He fought for more time with his family.

        It’s not very often someone can get me to tear up at my keyboard. Very well said.

    33. Tuesday Next*

      Yes, you’re entitled to your opinion. No, you should not have “called her out”, or made any comment at all. It’s 100% none of your business. You owe her an apology.

      Your suspension seems a little over the top, unless there’s something else going on that you haven’t shared.

    34. Semi-regular*

      Well apparently I’m in the minority because I don’t think their reaction is extreme, in fact, I would have fired you if it were up to me. I think your tone of not understanding what you did wrong came across in the discussion with your manager and probably led to the suspension decision. In my opinion, you were appallingly wrong. You’re entitled to your opinion and you’re entitled to voice it, but sometime your freedom of speech comes with consequences.

      2. Luna*

        Yeah I mean I’m not sure if I would have fired them, but this just shows staggeringly bad judgement. A suspension seems reasonable. I would be worried that a) they somehow thought this was okay to say in the first place, and b) that they did not immediately realize how wrong it was and offer profuse apologies.

        1. President Porpoise*

          Yep. That’s were I’m at too. If I was this person’s managers, I would never consider them for future leadership opportunities. The show of poor judgment and people skills would be a disqualifying factor. I would suggest finding a different job where you haven’t poisoned the well.

      3. Anon Accountant*

        I’m 100% right with you. I don’t find HR’s reaction extreme at all. I agree the tone of not understanding where suspension retention went wrong and doubling down lead to the suspension.

      5. IForgetWhatNameIUsedBefore*

        I don’t think it would be extreme if OP got fired over it either. This is one of those things that’s just so staggeringly inappropriate that firing on the spot would be completely warranted.

      1. Hills to Die on*

        Also a good point. Have you said something that’s gotten you in trouble before? Perhaps this isn’t the first instance of needing to know when to hold em and when to fold em.

        1. Rainy*

          That was my first thought–this wasn’t the first time but their manager really wants it to be the last.

          Unfortunately, especially given the tone of their post here, it probably won’t be.

    36. BethRA*

      I think others have explained the problem with your comments to Jane and your response to HR quite well, so nothing to add there, but I do think it would help your work situation if you could genuinely, sincerely apologize to Jane. And not a “I’m sorry IF what I said offended/hurt/upset you” but “I’m sorry that I DID offend/hurt/upset you.” It won’t make everything right, but it will go a long way towards helping Jane and your colleagues move on.

    37. Amy S*

      You way crossed the line and owe a huge apology to Jane. I guess I don’t understand the issue with the word “fight” as it relates to cancer (or any other medical issue). I don’t think it really implies that those who die are losers who lost the fight. My father had cancer and literally fought for his life every day for two years. He passed away, but that doesn’t mean the fight didn’t happen or that it was a waste and he lost. Cancer sucks. Apologize.

      1. Hills to Die on*

        Right. The thought would never cross my mind to tell someone how to refer to their cancer in the first place, but I wouldn’t think twice about the word fight either. You went too far.

      2. Natalie*

        There has been critical discussion of that framework, but a little more nuanced and complicated than the OP has presented it. But regardless, I’ve never known anyone who enjoys discussing our use of metaphor around illness to advocate for “calling out” individuals for their personal word choices.

    38. OperaArt*

      I was at my oncologist’s office yesterday for my 6-month post-treatment checkup.
      If someone had said that to me during my treatment, I would probably have gone nuclear on them. I was facing my own mortality every day, while going through exhausting treatments and feeling like ****. Someone who’s never faced this nitpicking my word choices at that time? BOOM!!!

      Now, they would get icely polite.

      Yes, you crossed a line.

      That said, your workplace’s reaction is excessive. However, if they’d left you where you were, I expect people would be treating you very differently than before.

      2. Emma*

        I’m also a survivor– I’m two years cancer-free on Sunday! And yeahhhhh. People said some ridiculous things to me while I was in treatment, and I somehow managed to keep my cool. But if a co-worker had nit-picked my word choice for a PERSONAL blog, I agree, I would have gone nuclear!

        1. AnnaleighUK*

          I just showed this to my big sister, who beat cancer, and she said ‘If I’d had that said to me I’d have backhanded her so hard she’d have ended up in China.’ And congrats on two years, Big Sis will be four years in April. Make sure you celebrate!

    39. Cher*

      A suspension sounds extreme, except when it’s for a “difficult” employee. My guess is that you might be the sort of person who shares her two cents on a lot of things that don’t affect you or aren’t your business. Am I close?

        1. Gilmore67*

          Yeah, I am thinking that too. And the fact that the OP doesn’t seem to ” get it”. The OP is still insisting that they can just say what they want. OP is ” dumbfounded” as to what happened.

          And in the post the OP is wanting from us, to affirm or deny that Jane’s word choice was wrong. OP just doesn’t get it. OP is still targeting the word choice and being with OK with their actions about it.

          OP, can you weigh in? Why did you feel it was OK to challenge Jane? And not about that you just don’t like the word choice. I mean why you feel it is OK to just challenge someone the way you did?

          I am truly very curious.

    40. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      Yes, you absolutely need to start job searching immediately. It’s going to be very difficult to continue working there. Take this as a lesson learned and move on.

    41. Elizabeth H.*

      Probably it would have been better not to say anything to her because it really offended her. I agree with you that the ‘cancer fight’ thing is unfortunate wording. Personally, my opinion is that it was wrong of Jane to complain to your supervisor and encourage others to complain. She should have just told you that she was offended and moved on. Her blog wasn’t work related, your comment to her wasn’t work related, and her reaction to what you said wasn’t work related. I think your company overreacted, and I don’t think that what you said was crazy. She has perfect right to think you are an asshole but it just seems like interpersonal drama to me. I realize I’m in the extreme minority on this, but that’s my opinion!

      1. ket*

        If everyone had just moved on after the initial exchange, I would agree with you, but it sounds like the OP pursued things to the point that Jane was justifying the title and the OP was saying the justification wasn’t good enough. I’m betting that Jane would not have reported the following: “I don’t like the word “fight” for cancer because it makes me feel like people who die are losers.” “My support group of cancer battlers suggested it. “Ok.” (move on)
        However, “I don’t like the word “fight” for cancer because it makes me feel like people who die are losers.” “My support group of cancer battlers suggested it. “Your cancer support group is also wrong. Do they want to feel like losers if they die?” “Um, I really feel like I’m in a battle, and now with you my coworker.” “Well you’re wrong, cancer isn’t a fight.” There’s a lot of extra dig, dig, dig going on here.

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          I didn’t exactly get that impression that it was a prolonged dig, dig, dig. I don’t really see any evidence about that one way or the other. OP wrote ” I was just wanting her to check her choice of word and do better. She complained to our boss about me to her boss and got other people to complain too. I wasn’t trying to upset her but I just wanted to bring attention to her choice of the word fight” – it’s impossible for me to tell whether they had a prolonged exchange about it or if it was a brief interaction like what you are assuming Jane probably wouldn’t have reported, three sentences. Who knows? If OP can clarify, maybe we can form more accurate judgments :)

          In short I interpreted “I was just wanting her to check her choice of word and do better” as OP explaining his or her *motivations* rather than paraphrasing the conversation.

      2. Forrest*

        I’m taking the “Jane encouraged others to complain” with a grain of salt. If I heard someone “calling out” my coworker with cancer about how to talk about her cancer – again, *her* cancer – I would say something without needing to be encouraged. Especially when it’s something my coworker created because she felt like she was bothering people by talking about her cancer – and then you come along and tell her she’s not even doing that right!

      3. IntoTheSarchasm*

        I think Jane should have taken OP out in an appropriate manner. Personally. Telling a cancer patient to “do better” at anything is insensitive, work or not. I think suspension/reassignment is too much unless there have been other incidents. But not everyone is wired for confrontation.

      4. soon 2be former fed*

        Elizabeth H., I couldn’t disagree with you more. The incident took place AT WORK, making it relevant for HR to intercede. Now you are down on Jane too? Damn, Jane can’t catch a break. There’s more than meets the eye here, OP likely has disrupted the work environment before.

    42. Eye of Sauron*

      So I’m going to leave the cancer/fight thing out my response, not to minimize that aspect of the issue, but focus elsewhere.

      I have to ask why you would comment to something that really has no impact or bearing on you at all. To be fair my response would be the same if you called out a coworker for wearing white after labor day, their choice of flowers they are telling you they planted in their front yard over the weekend, or who they choose to root for in the next really big sport event.

      ” I was just wanting her to check her choice of word and do better.”

      Your statement here is aggressive, and I am getting the sense of social justice warrior from you. I could have the wrong impression, but this is the vibe that I’m getting from your OP. I think I would recommend that you use this experience as a point of reflection for you and your future interactions with people. To put it bluntly, it’s not your place to tell people they should ‘check their word choices and do better’.

      If I were Jane, yeah, I’d be livid. If I were your coworkers I wouldn’t talk to you about non-work things as a preventative measure against hearing more of your opinions on my non work life.

      1. Snark*

        There’s nothing wrong, and a lot right, with being a social justice warrior. But all warriors, whatever they’re fighting for, need to have a keen sense of whether a given hill is worth dying on. This one was like charging a Japanese trench on Iwo Jima with nothing but a knife.

      2. Jadelyn*

        Eh, sometimes it *is* your place to tell people they should check their word choices and do better. Like the “mulatto” letter from the other day. Silence in the face of harmful language is not a virtue in and of itself.

        But what I get from the OP is that in their zeal for getting people to “do better”, they forgot that judgment and compassion also need to factor in the equation. It’s less a question of “ugh SJWs, stay out of things” and more “this was really not the right moment to be a SJW about this particular topic”.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Yes. It’s not a binary situation, it’s a ‘use good judgement’ situation.

          Like, for example, if this had been someone putting up a ‘save the tatas’ banner at work for breast cancer awareness, that would warrant a discussion of “hey could we maybe not use that language” based on reasons that are ultimately rather SJ-based. But given the combination of a) this wasn’t work-related, b) the terminology of “fight” against cancer is well-established linguistically and while there are people who don’t care for it, it’s not widely considered actively offensive, and c) you are not someone cancer-adjacent for whom this is personally troubling, and Jane is,/I> personally in a struggle against cancer, and d) you’re not even dealing with how she talks about cancer in general, but how she’s discussing her own particular experience of having cancer, this all adds up to DON’T GO THERE.

        2. Eye of Sauron*

          I don’t think that this falls anywhere near the line of racist, hateful, prejudice speech that most would agree to ‘call out’. I think that’s part of the problem. The OP is somehow unclear on where that line is.

          I’m trying to not project onto the OP, (and probably not doing a very good job at it) but I’ve encountered people who fancy themselves as the moral authority of all they hear. These people are cut from all different cloths and represent all different perspectives and stances. The thing they share in common is their need to project what they perceive as right and wrong and to have all those around them comply or die trying.

          This is why I attempted to take the cancer/fight verbiage out of my answer, however I probably should have left it in there. The bottom line is that OP was out of line and will probably find themselves out of line in the future if they don’t take this opportunity to learn.

        3. soon 2be former fed*

          I can think of no situation where taking a pass on calling out racist behavior is warranted. It’s wrong all the time. But this situation is not nearly so clear cut. The arrogance of OP here is astounding. Her zeal for getting people to do better was totally misplaced, because Jane was not NOT doing better, if that makes sense. OP was being a nosy busybody with an excessively high opinion of her own opinion. Frankly, she needs to learn to shut up.

        1. ket*

          I understand what you’re trying to say, but maybe we could just say “self-righteous” or “fake moral superiority.”
          Agree that it reminds me of the straight colleague telling a gay colleague they must say/must not say “queer,” or a white colleague explaining to a black colleague how Black History Month should be observed, or a hipster telling a hunter about the real spiritual value of hunting your own venison :)

      5. OhNo*

        I was coming down to say just this thing! There’s a lot of social justice rhetoric in the original post, which pinged my radar. OP, it’s good to be aware of word choice and to encourage others to think about their word choice when language might be problematic or harmful.

        But you missed a big rule for this kind of thing: if someone is in the affected group and using the word to describe themselves or their experience, then you don’t critique it to them unless they ask you to. You don’t get to decide what labels they put on their own personal experience.

        If it helps in the future, keep the circle theory in mind. The person affected is in the middle, and there are circles around them with the closest people nearest the center and more distant people further out. Criticism, heavy emotions, and concerns about how this affects you only go outward, never inward. You don’t tell a person who’s sick how inconvenient their illness is for you, and you keep your criticism of their choices for discussions with your own circle of friends and family.

    43. Elizabeth West*

      Suspension, I think yes, your criticism, based on no personal experience, was pretty insensitive. I’m not going to flog it as to how and why; other commenters have already done so.

      I think now you should concentrate on doing your best work on the other team. Keep your discussions focused on work, and be polite to your new team members. If anyone brings it up, I wouldn’t talk about it — just say something like “This was discussed with HR and I’d rather just move on now.” If you feel like you need to keep job searching, then that’s fine. Keep it to yourself. If you need to vent, do it outside the company and not to any coworkers.

      The fact that they intend to reassign you means they probably won’t fire you remotely, though it could still happen. But you’re walking a VERY thin line — if they went so far as to suspend you, that means they’ll be watching you for any more problematic behavior. It’s much harder to job search when you’re not working because you’ve been fired than it is while you still have a job. Good luck.

      1. Samata*

        I really think that even if Suspension did have experience with a cancer diagnosis or a close relative/friend with experience, it’s still insensitive.

        We don’t all handle illnesses the same way. A civil discussion/debate is one thing, calling someone out and encouraging them to “do better” when referring to their own struggle when they have just been diagnosed with a major health issue is never ok.

        And I realize we all have moments, but usually in retrospect we realize the error in our ways. I don’t know that OP is there yet. I do hope they read the comments though, and do some searching and understanding of what lead to the blow-back from this one comment.

    44. bunniferous*

      Well, my rule in life is the person dealing with the issue gets to choose the language. If you or a loved one had cancer they probably would have handled this differently.

      I assume the reason you are hung up on the word choice is that some cancer sufferers have shared that they do not like the terminology of battle and that absolutely is a valid viewpoint. The issue here is that in pushing back on that you are hurting and/or offending an actual cancer patient. I think you did not think this out thoroughly before you chose to say something.

      But look at it this way-the company did you a favor by giving you a fresh start with a new team. If I was on your original team this incident would probably have made me look at you differently.

    45. D.W.*

      You should not have mentioned it, but HR was heavy handed with the suspension.

      It is a fight. Her fight with cancer, and there a winners and losers in every battle. I’ve heard it said of many people that “so and so lost the their battle/fight with cancer”. Her use of the word does not demean those who unfortunately succumbed to the disease.

    46. Nita*

      That’s an incredibly petty bone you chose to pick. Really… way to kick someone when she’s down.

      As for HR’s response, was it a one-time comment you made? Did you repeatedly argue the issue with Jane, or say it in a very rude way/turn it into a personal attack? If it was the former, it does sound like your company overreacted. If it was the latter, you’ve gone from insensitivity to a serious lack of judgment, and no decent HR department would want to keep you on your original team.

    47. Fake Eleanor*

      You were so insensitive about how you handled a language pet peeve that you got called to HR. For upsetting someone with cancer. (Who will totally be writing about this on her blog!)
      When you were talking to HR, you didn’t back off or apologize. You decided to keep digging.
      You’re welcome to have opinions about the language people use when talking about their disease. But given that you’re, by your own admission, not part of that community, the people you can safely have that conversation with are other people who are not part of that community. That’s basic respect for the relative differences in your situations. Save the theoretical discussions for the theorists, not people in the thick of things.
      I can’t say whether or not you deserve your suspension, but your own telling of this tale doesn’t make you look good and doesn’t demonstrate that it was a wild overreaction.

    48. NW Mossy*

      As to why your employer’s taken this to a reprimand-and-suspend place, I can think of a couple of reasons. One, it likely violates company policy to behave this way towards colleagues, because of the venue (social media), the topic (a health condition), or both. Also, when Jane brought the issue to the attention of her manager (possibly also yours? can’t quite tell from how you worded this) and HR became involved, you reacted defensively and focused on justifying why you did what you did rather than accepting that you were wrong.

      Right now, you’ve burned a lot of relationships, including Jane, management, HR, and colleagues. They’re showing you that you’ve burned them by pulling back from their previous level of engagement with you to a more defensive and chilly posture. You’re probably right that some of these relationships are not repairable, or at least not repairable enough to make it comfortable for you to work there any more.

      Going forward, I’d encourage you think about what drove you to say this to Jane. Also, this is a good time to start recognizing that at work, there’s a big difference between being objectively “right” and being effective in working with others. You prioritized the former over the latter in this case, and you miscalculated badly.

    49. Jadelyn*

      When you say you “called her out”, what exactly do you mean? Did you publicly harangue her about it? Harshly criticize the word choice vs gently noting it? The fact that the company responded in a fairly extreme manner makes me wonder if perhaps it was a bigger scene than you’re presenting it as.

      That aside, even if you were being very gentle about it, you were absolutely over the line. You approached a coworker who has a serious, potentially fatal illness, purely to scold her about the word choice she uses to describe what she’s going through. That’s unacceptable behavior. This is not like someone using a racial slur where you *need* to call it out because it’s a major deal to let it go unremarked. This is a small, and frankly intra-community, point of contention in terms of how something is framed linguistically.

      And the intra-community part is relevant, too. You’re not a survivor, you haven’t lost anyone close to you. You’re not part of that community at all, so why on earth do you feel like you have not only the right, but the duty, to jump in the middle and start giving your opinion? HR asked you that because if you were speaking out of personal grief or anger, that would contextualize your response – even if it’s still not okay and you’d still have needed to apologize to Jane, like the miscarriage letter we had a week or two back, it would’ve made it much more understandable. But, lacking that personal connection, it just comes off as a massive overreach, inserting yourself into something that is frankly none of your business.

      I get the sense that you felt like you were stepping in to do the righteous thing, being the voice of those who weren’t present to speak for themselves, and in the abstract that’s a noble ideal, but sometimes, compassion needs to take precedence over righteousness. And that’s where you went off the rails here.

      1. Observer*

        I get the sense that you felt like you were stepping in to do the righteous thing, being the voice of those who weren’t present to speak for themselves, and in the abstract that’s a noble ideal, but sometimes, compassion needs to take precedence over righteousness

        What makes it worse is that they were essentially acting as though they were the voice for the person they were “calling out”. Nothing noble about. Talk about invalidating and silencing people.

        2. Jadelyn*

          Yeah, as noble as “being a voice for those who aren’t present to defend themselves” can be, “speaking over the voice of someone who’s standing right the hell there as you’re talking” is a very different beast.

    50. Emmie*

      What was your reaction when your manager discussed this with you? Others have sufficiently addressed the timing and appropriateness of your comment. I could see a manager re-assigning an employee if his / her reaction to the conversation was angry, hostile, and the employee was unwilling or unable to repair the relationship or see another’s perspective. I’m not sure you have to leave the company. Perhaps a genuine humble apology tour with some emotional distance from your reassignment might help. High quality work, and impeccable professionalism with your new and old teams would help too.

    51. Observer*

      This must feel like a pile on. I’m going to try not to repeat what everyone else has said.

      I just want to highlight something. I suspect that the suspension was not just because you made a single comment. But because you make it clear that you think you have the right to police other’s word choices in contexts that are totally not your place, that you project a stereotypically self-righteous social justice warrior vibe that’s especially hard to deal with when its directed at someone who is supposedly part the group you are trying to “defend” and you just would not back down. The who post makes it clear that you STILL don’t get it. So, in a sense, your company did you a long term favor because they kind of smacked into asking the question

      1. Eye of Sauron*

        Why is it that someone comes along and says what I was trying to say, but they do it so much better!

      2. Manders*

        Well said!

        I’m a part of some social justice-oriented circles filled with young and eager people, and while it’s awesome that they have so much drive to focus on making the world better, sometimes there needs to be an understanding of the difference between lofty goals and the real, imperfect world we live in. It’s like calling out people who describe their own struggles with mental illness using the word “crazy,” or refer to their own sexual identity or race with terms that were once slurs–the group of people who are experiencing a difficult thing get to decide the language they want to use, and a person who’s not in that in group is going to come across as incredibly rude if they try to lecture that group about how they’re allowed to talk about their own experiences.

        1. Serin*

          My kid, who’s a college freshman, says, “You deal with problems as problems. You deal with people as people. People are more important than problems.”

        2. Fiddlesticks*

          Yes! Honestly I read this (agog), and I thought immediately to Tumblr’s approach to social justice — which is almost always the wrong approach toward social justice.

          1. teclatrans*

            Yes, and I thought about the posts I have seen criticizing “call-out culture.” I keep thinking OP might have been influenced by that culture.

    52. A Fighter's Daughter*

      My mother died of cancer after several horror-filled years of increasingly futile experimental treatments. She willingly submitted herself to this because she wanted to stay alive for her four young children. (And while this wasn’t her first consideration, she also went into it all knowing that even if it didn’t save her life, it could teach the doctors things that might help them save lives in the future.) I can assure you that it was very much a fight. I can also assure you that precisely no one thinks she was a loser.

      Your employer’s reaction was OTT, but you absolutely owe your colleague an apology.

      1. CEMgr*

        I am so sorry for your painful loss. She sounds like an incredible and determined woman and her caring spirit is an inspiration.

    54. Mother of Cats*

      Dude, it’s not too late to make this right. Tell Jane that after some time of reflection, you realized you were out of line and apologize.

    55. Delphine*

      I think you crossed a line here, but I wonder if there were other instances where your coworkers felt you had made aggressive or insensitive remarks, and this was just the final straw? It’s moving you to another office and team that makes this feel like the conclusion to a long-term issue.

      1. Former Retail Manager*

        I agree. I don’t foresee a comment like this just coming out of the blue. It seems indicative of a certain type of personality. Perhaps some prior insensitivities/inability to play well with others has occurred to the point that it got management’s attention and this was indeed the last straw.

    56. Lissa*

      Oh gosh. “Do better” is a snappy Internet response to people saying problematic things. Using it in real life, especially towards someone who’s going through something that you aren’t, just comes across as incredibly condescending and lecturing. It sounds like you’re put yourself in a position of telling her not just what to do, but also assuming that you know what “better” is. I know there’s been a lot of pushback against “fight” lately, but to a lot of people, it still makes sense to frame it that way, and there’s nothing wrong with that. The pushback should be against making everyone use that term, not against anyone doing it.

      I can tell you’re dumbfounded because you thought that you were taking the side of good and right here, but I have to agree with the majority – yes you did cross a line. You were “correcting” someone on their own experiences, which is not a good look.

    57. AnonAcademic*

      ” I didn’t intend to upset her by pointing it out. ”

      I think you just learned the hard way what the saying “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” really means. And I agree with others that if you do not take this chance to soul search, you risk repeating the same pattern again.

    58. My Pops Had Cancer*

      Yeah, you crossed a line. It’s actually none of your business – especially where you don’t have/haven’t had cancer or anyone close to you have it, you really have no right to decide how someone chooses to go after their cancer battle.

      I think the suspension was fair.

    59. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Yes, you were out of line, and yes, I think they went too far.

      1) Not work related, you don’t really know Jane, and from your comments it seems like she didn’t make this statement about her site to you specifically?

      Based on what you said, it seems like your previous team was pretty much done with you, so HR may have moved you anyway. The suspension seems a bit much, but that’s just because to me I would have thought they would have required a sincere apology to Jane instead of a suspension (perhaps a writeup if you kept doubling down). I’m not sure what the suspension was supposed to do at all, unless it gives them time to clean out your desk and make sure that you aren’t near Jane.

      Is suspension what they do at your office before formal write-ups or notes to your file? Maybe that’s why it was a suspension.

      I’ll have to find that link on circles of comfort. In short, if people are experiencing some dramatic significant life event like that, comfort into the circles that are more closely affected, concern and comments like this one outward to people not as affected.

      1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

        Ah, it’s called Ring Theory.

        “When you are talking to a person in a ring smaller than yours, someone closer to the center of the crisis, the goal is to help. Listening is often more helpful than talking. But if you’re going to open your mouth, ask yourself if what you are about to say is likely to provide comfort and support. If it isn’t, don’t say it. Don’t, for example, give advice. People who are suffering from trauma don’t need advice. They need comfort and support. So say, ‘I’m sorry’ or ‘This must really be hard for you’ or ‘Can I bring you a pot roast?’ Don’t say, ‘You should hear what happened to me’ or ‘Here’s what I would do if I were you.’ And don’t say, ‘This is really bringing me down.’

        “If you want to scream or cry or complain, if you want to tell someone how shocked you are or how icky you feel, or whine about how it reminds you of all the terrible things that have happened to you lately, that’s fine. It’s a perfectly normal response. Just do it to someone in a bigger ring.

        “Comfort IN, dump OUT.” ”

        Link here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/promoting-hope-preventing-suicide/201705/ring-theory-helps-us-bring-comfort-in

        1. Manders*

          Yes, this is such a useful guideline! I think about it a lot, and it’s definitely helped me be more compassionate to my friends.

          My one very minor quibble is that this particular piece doesn’t go into detail about what someone should do if the dumping out is happening constantly, or is all directed at one person who’s becoming overwhelmed themselves, or is turning into a pattern of lashing out (like the case of Amy from earlier this week). But other writers like Captain Awkward have covered that in detail.

          1. Observer*

            Sure. But the idea was in reference to relatively “normal” situations. Also, the essential concept works even there, but obviously needs some tweaking.

            I don’t think that it’s really relevant to an “Amy” try situation, because no one is complaining to her. Not just out complaining to her about HER issues, but generally not even THEIR issues.

    60. senatormeathooks*

      I think you did cross a line, but at the same time I am dumbfounded as to the extreme response of your employer who, quite frankly, needed to stay out of a non-work-related disagreement between two employees, and HR had no excuse to ask you if you’ve ever had cancer. (I stand by this provided this situation didn’t impact your jobs directly).

      Did you comment your opinion with her word choice on your own time (like on the blog) or during work hours? Either way, and once again, I don’t think you should have bothered to call her out on it, not a hill worth dying on – dragging in your boss and employer into this (as you described) is very strange to me.

      1. fposte*

        The thing is, the employee can still be legally on the hook for possible harassment even if it happens off the clock.

          2. Natalie*

            Oh, there is a typo in fposte’s comment which I think might be causing some confusion:

            The employER is responsible for stopping prohibited harassment, even if it happens off the clock. That’s why the employer had to address this.

          3. KellyK*

            I think fposte meant that the *employer* will be on the hook. “Let the employee deal with it” doesn’t really help in that case.

        2. fposte*

          As people have caught, I meant “employer,” not “employee”; my apologies for the confusion.

          If one of my staff is harassing another member of the staff based on their race, religion, disability, or other characteristic protected by law, it’s still a legal problem for my workplace even if it’s happening outside of the workplace. I don’t know if they had to take *this* action, but they definitely had to take some action.

    61. Radius20*

      I’m glad they suspended you and relocated you. I had a coworker who felt the need to express her opinion on everything, whether it concerned her or not. She used to constantly nitpick my wording on things, and what I used to always think, but never have the guts to say, was “mind your own freaking business.” Since the blog she was created wasn’t even work related, it really seems that you had no business offering any opinion or criticism of her. It is truly none of your business. You should have just been supportive of her battle against cancer (no matter what words she prefers to use to describe it). Do you understand how unsupportive it is to point out she may want to use another word because of how many people lose their fight against cancer? Think about it if you were in her shoes, is that what you would want to hear? Or would you just want 100% support, knowing your life could be in danger of ending too soon.

    62. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      In the vein of trying to be helpful to the OP, here are my comments and advice:

      She mentioned to a few people she started a blog so she wasn’t annoying people with cancer talk all the time and her family and friends could read what’s going on with her.

      1. OP, did Jane tell you directly that she was starting a blog or did you hear about it through the office grapevine? If Jane didn’t tell you directly, tracking her down to tell her that you thought she used a poor choice of words is exceptionally petty. Going forward, don’t get involved in conversations that people aren’t having with you.

      The blog is called “Jane’s” cancer fight. I got into trouble for calling her out for using the word fight in her blog because it implies people who died from cancer are losers who lost the fight when it is hardly the case. I was just wanting her to check her choice of word and do better.

      2. I think everyone above has covered the fact that you were way out of line. There is probably nothing you can say or do to make Jane and your coworkers like you again. Jane deserves a heartfelt apology. But I’m not sure your employer will allow you within 100 feet of Jane to deliver it. Nonetheless, if you are really interested in making amends, I might suggest something like a $250 (US) donation in Jane’s name to a group doing cancer research or a hospice that helps cancer patients.

      She complained to our boss about me to her boss and got other people to complain too.

      3. If you called Jane out in front of all your coworkers, Jane didn’t need to get other coworkers to complain about you. This reads to me like you’re blaming Jane for you getting in trouble. Nope, that was all you.

      I wasn’t trying to upset her but I just wanted to bring attention to her choice of the word fight.

      4. Unless your employer is paying you to be the office’s grammar police, Jane’s choice of words was none of your business. The lesson here is that when things don’t involve you at work and they don’t make your work life more difficult, leave them alone.

      She says her support group of people who had or have cancer or lost someone to it picked the title.

      5. You must see how important the name of Jane’s blog was to her. She shared with her cancer support group that she was writing a blog, and the support group came up with the name. Jane’s “fight” wasn’t something Jane thought of out of left field. Her support group felt it was a fitting title based on their interactions with Jane. And you tried to take that meaning away from Jane because you didn’t like the word choice. That’s pretty arrogant on your part OP. You need to be more sensitive to your coworkers going forward.

      Everyone at work thinks I should not have called her and no one is talking to me unless it is about work.

      6. This is the proper punishment when people cross the line at work. You’ll just have to live with this one.

      1. Natalie*

        Regarding your first point, IMO it would be fairly petty even if Jane had told OP directly. Leaving aside the very fraught nature of this, when people tell you about their hobbies or whatever, they aren’t generally soliciting comments on the fairly superficial aspects of said activity.

      2. Observer*

        On your #5, there is another piece to this. A whole group of people with close experience with cancer say that this language works for them, at least in the context of Jane’s situation. Yet, OP, with exactly ZERO direct experience with cancer feels the need to call it out on the basis that it hurts the very people who chose that language.

        OP, you need to recognize the arrogance and absurdity of your position.

    63. Bea*

      I get it…but as a daughter of a father who miraculously beat cancer I would have snapped back at you as well. It’s a term cancer patients use. And likening those who lost the battle as losers isn’t what is done. They’re literally at war with the disease and yes, it defeats millions and precious few beat it.

    64. Beachgal*

      You crossed the line. If you did not agree with the word fight, then you should have closed out of the blog. I just lost my mother to cancer and you can believe she was fighting every single day. Next time just keep your opinion to yourself.

    65. Akcipitrokulo*

      TBH… harsh, maybe. Unreasonably so? No.

      She gets to use the word fight. It is HER fight, in HER blog, and you were in the wrong.

    66. Weyrwoman*

      This part really sticks out at me: “I didn’t intend to upset her by pointing it out.”

      As I’m constantly having to tell my mom when we argue (she has tone/word choice issues), what you intended doesn’t matter once someone else’s feelings have been hurt.

      I’d take the time to do some serious reflection on your history with Jane and the other coworkers. Have you previously taken it upon yourself to be the word police? To question others’ word choice on social justice or similar issues and informed them that they can “do better”?

      This is not workplace appropriate behaviour. At all. It’s very possible that Jane’s complaint, as many others upthread have mentioned, is coming on the heels of other complaints and hurts, and is the most egregious so far.

      Think back on your past interactions and conversations along these lines, and try to imagine how you would feel if someone decided that you couldn’t use the word “dumbfounded” ever again, because to someone (not them, and they aren’t tied to anyone on-spectrum) decided that the word was insulting to Aspie/Autistic persons, and then told you to “do better”. I have a feeling your answer to this would be “oh, omg, I need to stop saying that”. This is not necessarily the correct answer.

    67. Casuan*

      Suspension retention, your suspension does seem like an extreme response to your calling out the wording of a personal blog, which makes me think there are other factors involved in your suspension. There might not be, you’ve asked for feedback & that’s my impression of how your managers reacted.

      It seems that you’re not so much caught up in the word “fight” as you are with the implications that when one dies then one is then a “loser.” Hopefully your comment was meant to encourage your colleague in the sense of keep-at-it-and-stay-with-us, although I’m not certain this is the case.

      The thing is, you called someone out for using a term that is common vernacular for illness. Much like how a physician or an attorney “practise” medicine & law, one “fights”a cold or a serious illness such as cancer. So you were nitpicking a word that was properly used.

      The other thing is that cancer (& any illness, especially long-term) really is a “fight.” This can be difficult to understand if you don’t have personal experience with a severe diagnosis. It’s a fight to determine the diagnosis, it’s a fight to manage scheduling & attending appointments, it’s a fight to drag your body to walk 5 steps to the bathroom, it’s a fight to deal with the many side-effects of treatment, it’s a fight to process all that is going on & to explain things to others, it’s a fight to worry that you’re stressing out your loved ones & it’s a fight to accept that they’re willing to help you in any way possible & at the expense of their own needs just because they love you…

      Cancer can be sneaky & spread & even when it’s eradicated it can come back with a vengeance.
      So you fight again. And again. And when you don’t think you can fight any more you realise you still have fight left within you. So you continue the fight. Your loved ones can help you so very much although when it comes down to it you really are alone. The fight isn’t just physical- it’s psychological & for some it’s spiritual.

      We all die, suspension retention. By your logic that makes us all “losers” because we’ve lost our lives.

      The biggest thing…?
      We did what we were designed to do. We lived. We loved. We were loved. Eventually our bodies declared enough & we died.
      We didn’t lose. We triumphed in life because we fought for the things that mattered to us.

    68. Marvel*

      You don’t get to decide how Jane defines her own experience.

      I would have done the same thing, if I were your manager.

    69. Piano Girl*

      Just curious – what word would you have used???
      I am watching my younger brother battling cancer (and yes, it is a fight, and he’s not giving up) and I cannot imagine anybody telling he or his family how to title his blog. I’m just grateful to be able to read it and keep up with his treatments.
      It’s a fight for all of us. Our mother confided in me that she cannot imagine a world without him. Oh, how heartbreaking to have to think about burying your child. That alone is a battle.

      1. Thlayli*

        I’m with you. I’m baffled as to why OP even thinks the word “fight” implies the word “loser”.

        Like many people I have lost a loved on to cancer. She fought, and I very definitely don’t think she was a “loser” because she died in the end. I find OPs description of someone who fights and dies being a “loser” really offensive the more I think about it. I really don’t get where she is coming from.

        I can understand someone like the anti-war activist mentioned upthread being offended by the term “fight” or “battle” with cancer. But I just don’t see how someone who fights but doesn’t survive could be considered a “loser”. The two words aren’t related. Lots of fights don’t have a winner. Lots of “losers” never fought anything.

    70. The Strand*

      Hi Suspension Retention,

      I kind of understand what your thinking might have been. My husband doesn’t really like people referring to veterans as “heroes”. He’s a veteran, and he and his crew literally saved several people’s lives – but that’s what they were trained and paid to do. It makes him very uncomfortable and I’ve heard it from other veterans – also that they think some of the heroes are the ones who didn’t make it back. However, neither my husband, I, or the veterans I know will generally criticize someone to their face for using that kind of language, because we understand that civilians who do that are well-meaning, they are trying to be kind, they are trying to show gratitude. Sometimes the civilian is a military family member who feels strongly that their service member isn’t being respected (all you have to do is check out the national news to see why, e.g. that crummy teacher in Pico Rivera). Still, I don’t criticize them, because I don’t have any more ‘right’ to the correct use of the language than they do. What I do have the right to do is to ask them to use language in a respectful way. To your office, your challenge of Jane seemed like you were telling her you had more ‘right’ than she did, to define what she’s going through.

      It sounds like you felt defensive about Jane’s blog, and it could be from watching other people deal with cancer, even if they weren’t close to you. Or perhaps you have strong feelings or ideas about how and when people should implement words. You might want to explore whether there have been other incidents where you unknowingly caused conflict or hurt feelings because your strong ideas about what “should” be, interacted with the cultural norms of other people around you.

    71. Former Retail Manager*

      Cancer kinda trumps most everything and requires the utmost sensitivity. It’s not a time to debate or correct someone’s word choice. It’s her life she’s fighting for….so yeah it is a fight. You should have kept your mouth shut and I think the suspension was well deserved. If you’ve never stared death in the face, you have no right to make such a ridiculous remark to someone who is likely going through one of the toughest things they’ll ever face. Please get your priorities in order and show a little compassion to your fellow man.

    72. Artemesia*

      Well you are wrong. Lots of people undergo a lot of misery ‘fighting’ cancer and a lot of people ‘win’ i.e. are cured after arduous therapy. I am about to become one of them I hope (the winning part). I understand your point that cancer is not ‘one’s fault’ and a failure to be cured is not a moral or personal failing — but it is a lost battle. And what would possess you to pick at the words of someone facing something this scary and ‘correct’ her language?

      I think a suspension is an over reaction, but the behavior is pretty awful.

    73. Ladylike*

      I agree with others who have said you shouldn’t have criticized Jane. She can call her blog whatever she wants and in all honesty, it doesn’t really affect you. Live and let live.

      But, the company is being ridiculous to make this a work issue and suspend you. They should told you the topic was upsetting Jane and asked you to refrain from talking about it at work. Only a pattern of continual harassment should warrant such a drastic disciplinary action.

    74. nep*

      Excuse me if repeating as I’ve not yet read every comment here — but: Jane gets to call it whatever she wants. Period.
      Not dissing your sensitivity and your objection to the word *which doesn’t happen to work for you*, but that’s the bottom line. Sounds like it was a case for taking a couple deep breaths and thinking things through before speaking.

    75. Kuododi*

      OK…. I had cancer approximately 25 years ago and personally the whole “warrior, fighter” trend chaps my hide…but that’s my issue and not for me to impose on the world at large. If Jane wants to describe her recovery process as”purple pumpkins”, that is completely her business and not open for your involvement. You really stuck your foot in something that was completely none of your business!!!!

    77. Weak Trees*

      I get that this may have seemed to you like a natural thing to do because it’s a common thing online (including on this site, where “check your privilege”, “do better”, “have some empathy”, etc. appear dozens of times in any given post), but it’s pretty inappropriate to use any of these actual phrases at another person in real life. They’re helpful to societal improvement when used as internal guidelines, but as pithy verbal barbs at a real human, they only come across as condescending, clichéd, and unnecessarily antagonistic.

      My own mother’s 20 years with cancer could only be truthfully described as a fight – a physical struggle to stand, a battle of weakened muscles against gravity, an arsenal of drugs decimating disease and organs alike in targeted strikes – so my opinion differs from yours. She did lose, but damn it she fought like a beast. However, if it was really important to you to say something to Jane, I think a better approach would have been a quick, gentle aside to her later, maybe along the lines of “I’ve heard that people can find the framing of cancer as a fight hurtful. Are you sure it’s the word you’re most comfortable using?”

      Still, I’d personally opt for setting my own preference aside in the name of not kicking her when she’s down.

      As for the punishment, it does seem overly harsh from your telling. It may be that your tone was more aggressive than you realized, you’ve rubbed your coworkers the wrong way multiple times already, you doubled down with HR in a particularly aggravating way, or any number of other things we can’t tell from this. But what’s done is done. I suggest continuing your job search and keeping your head down and your thoughts moderated in the meantime.

    79. Lauren R*

      The main question I have is how long was it from the time of the comment to the time of the actual suspension? At first it seems like you made the comment and then were pretty immediately suspended – but then you say that none of your coworkers will talk to you unless it’s work related, which kind of makes me think this played out over the course of at least a week or maybe more. Otherwise I’m not sure how you’d really have time to be impacted by your coworkers’ distant behavior.

      The length of time you have been digging in your heels on this is really significant to me. Making one comment and getting suspended and moved to a different team that day or the very next day is perhaps extreme. But if you had a longer stretch of time to be aware that Jane was upset and you kept holding firm rather than trying to fix it and make nice with everyone you offended, even if you don’t agree with their view, then I think you need to accept that this is 100% on you. At that point, it seems you could have easily apologized and backed off but instead you’re still arguing your position. I don’t agree with the comment you made and think it’s an awful thing to say to someone dealing with cancer but people make unfortunate comments like this without it becoming an incident; it’s when you continue making the comment that it ends up being a problem.

      You are entitled to your opinion but at work the most important thing is being able to work effectively with others. They didn’t suspend you because of what you said. They suspended you because keeping you there was more trouble than it was worth. You’re there to work and you could no longer do that effectively when you’d managed to anger everyone on your current team. When you move to your new team, learn to pick your battles and save your personal beliefs about others’ personal lives for when you get home.

    80. Anon please today*

      As someone who just had a double biopsy this morning (one on each side), I’m with you on this. I hate that word and if I do get cancer and people use that word around me, they will be barred from visiting me. Also the word “battle,” even more so, and for the same reason. It really rubs me the wrong way. You were right to say something but it sounds like you had the wrong audience for those comments.

      1. Observer*

        Why was she right?

        I’m curious about your thinking here. I get that you do NOT want anyone to use that language with you, and I also understand why. That’s totally not my question.

        But do you think it gives you standing to tell someone else how to frame if for themselves? Do you think that you have the RIGHT way, and therefore it’s ok to call out others, regardless of their personal framing and need? Or are you just SO DONE with hearing that language that you want to hit back regardless of context?

        1. Anon please today*

          Hi, I just saw your question — I don’t usually participate in the open thread Fridays or the weekend free-for-all thread. I would say that it’s definitely the latter of the two scenarios that you posed.

    81. Student*

      I’ll spell it out for you.

      When YOU say: “I got into trouble for calling her out for using the word fight in her blog because it implies people who died from cancer are losers who lost the fight when it is hardly the case.”

      What SHE hears is a very unwelcome reminder that SHE might LOSE her FIGHT against CANCER and DIE.

      You might as well have started reading off mortality rate tables to her. “Oh, you have Atrocious Cancer, Stage 17B phase 2.1? Well, you have a 30% chance to die of it in the next year according to Wikipedia. On the upside, there’s a 70% chance you’ll still be around for the next company Christmas party!”

      It’s not that your data is wrong, it’s just that it’s beyond useless, to the point of being offensive, to the person you brought it to. She either survives this or dies. She does not have to worry about whether her blog title offends people who have other family members who have already died of cancer because she has a bigger worry – actually dying of cancer.

    83. Pearly Girl*

      ” I was just wanting her to check her choice of word and do better. ”

      This is so crushingly condescending on your part. What gives you the right to comment on someone else’s response to their own medical situation? Why are you the arbiter of her word choice in this case?

      Seriously, you should have minded your own business and kept quiet.

    84. MsVader*

      I would have done it one better. I would have fired you. Why? Because your judgement and complete inability to take responsibility for the situation denotes such a grievous lack of awareness and critical thinking skills that you would invariably put the company at risk. Your lack of foresight and common decency meant the company had to spend money on relocation and phone calls and meetings to alleviate the harm you put towards your colleague.

      You even refer to “Jane” as your colleague which suggests you don’t have a close personal relationship with her which means you have even less of a reason to “call her out”. You seem very self important and it would be good for you to reflect on that.

      Further, your lack of empathy is a huge risk as there are few jobs where you don’t have to demonstrate this quality at some point. Even if you are lucky enough to not have ever been personally affected by cancer, it’s common enough to know what impact it would have on a person which should have made you really pause before taking your colleague to task over word choice.

    85. MassMatt*

      I’m trying to be kind, OP, but it sounds from your letter that you really don’t think you did anything wrong and that the company overreacted. I believe there is probably a reason they went to this step, probably by your being argumentative in the HR meeting.

      Have you apologized to Jane? You should, unless contacting her would bring her more pain, and you should mean it.

      Looking for another job is a good idea, a 1 day suspension may not be a career ender (I don’t know your industry or company culture) but it sound like your relationships there are damaged beyond repair.

    86. sympathy*

      First, I’m going to call *you* out on your *ableism*. As a person who doesn’t have cancer, you have the privilege of being able to treat living with cancer as some intellectual debate.

      Jane doesn’t have that privilege. Serious sickness and disability are not theoretical debates to Jane – they’re her life now. You do not get to “call her out” (or anyone else who’s sick or disabled) by judging their lived experience and their coping strategies froma a place of relative health-privilege and finding it wanting.

      Seriously, knock it off. Never discriminate against people who are sick or disabled like that again.

      Now. the practical advice: Apologise. Sincerely!

      “I’m sorry I said what I said. I had no right. I recognise that I hurt your feelings, and I admit that I was wrong. I’m not asking you to forgive me. I just wanted to say, I’m really sorry.”

      That’s it. Don’t justify, excuse, argue, explain, or defend yourself – you’re not apologising if you’re still arguing your case for why you were right all along, or trying to say it wasn’t that bad, or that they shouldn’t have overreacted. Absolutely do not use any ‘if’ statements – you said it, it was offensive; Jane was hurt by it; those are all hard facts.

      Accept that you had no right to say what you said. Accept that what you did was wrong. Accept that you hurt Jane’s feelings. Accept that your intentions, arguments, justifications, defenses and excuses are utterly and totally irrelevant here – so don’t mention any of them! Accept that your workplace were right to call you on behaving so insensitively to someone who is ill.

      Don’t try to apologise unless you can accept all of that. There’s nothing worse than someone who’s lying their way through mouthing empty formulas to get out of a mess they made. Don’t do that.

      If you can accept that what you did was wrong, and understand why it was wrong, then maybe add something like, “I hope you and your group do really well with your fight against cancer” to your apology – but only if you can say it sincerely and really mean it.

      I recognise this will be hard for you. I suggest finding aplace to express all your emotions and hurt feelings in a big old mess, so that you can keep them away from Jane, your work, and keep the apology itself clean and straightforward. Don’t bring your emotions into that; it’s not Jane’s job to comfort you over a mess you made. Especially don’t demand or expect forgiveness or a fresh start.

      Learning to admit you were wrong is a valuable life skill and how to apologise gracefully is an essential social skill. Think of this as an opportunity to learn and grow and become a better person.

      Other people will gift you with their respect, until you do something unworthy of respect; then you have to change to prove you deserve to get their respect back.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Thank you for saying this. You’ve put in words what I wanted to and couldn’t. Thank you.

    87. McWhadden*

      Jane could die. No matter how good her prognosis is there is a much higher percent chance that Jane will die than there is for you. The fighter v. loser distinction isn’t an abstract for Jane. It isn’t some moral issue. She could be one of the people who loses this fight. She is very aware of that. She chooses to use the word despite knowing she could die.

      That’s her decision. That’s her right.

      If she were in recovery for a significant amount of time then *maybe* it would be OK because she would be putting herself as a “winner” compared to the “losers” but that isn’t what is happening. She is looking at the potential of death right now. And, trust me, is very very aware that she could lose.

      You crossed a line. A one day suspension is a fair punishment to make you reflect on how. I would just apologize.

    88. Anonymous for this blog*

      You argued semantics with a woman fighting for her life – that was never going to end well.

  2. Off to HI*

    I’m finally taking my first real vacation away from my new job! Anyone have any out-of-office message pet peeves? Do you check work email on vacation, and if so, do you ever respond before you’re back at work?

    1. selina kyle*

      Don’t check it unless you have something super pressing on the horizon! (I’d ideally say don’t check it at ALL but depending what level you’re at that might not be something you’re comfortable with.) Enjoy your vacation, set up an Out of Office reply on email.

    2. LKW*

      I leave different messages that allow people to know whether I’m checking email. I will include statements like “I will not be checking email” or “I will have limited access to email” or “I will be checking email”

    3. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      First, Yay for your vacay to HI. With regards to the out of office message. Just be sure to remember to set it up. Not sure about where you work, but where I work, it’s like going through hoops to get one set up for someone who forgot to do it. I don’t answer emails while I’m on vacay. However, I do let my colleagues know that they can contact me via my cell phone if there’s an emergency or something I need to know about ASAP.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      I spend 5 minutes a day while on vacation checking work e-mails. I very, very selectively respond, though. Five minutes a day on vacation saves hours or days when I get back to work. Plus it’s more relaxing to me to know what’s going on than the anxiety of being blindsided when I get back to work.

      As for pet peeves, don’t make it cute. Just the facts.

      1. A.N.O.N.*

        This.

        It doesn’t take much time/effort to check (not respond, just check) once every day or two. In the event that something major comes up, it’ll be so much easier to deal with it right then and there than to let it snowball for a few more days and have to deal with it then while also catching up on everything else.

    5. grace*

      Depends on the office! I booked a vacation in October months ahead of time that turned out to be the worst possible moment, and my manager still told me not to worry about the project — but I stayed up to date on emails from external vendors, and forwarded where necessary over the long weekend.

      I’d def recommend setting one up, but if you want to make even less worry for yourself, designate a person or something to do for requests/concerns. (IE: Please refer to Susan for project 18.)

    6. Nervous Accountant*

      I personally check bc I’d rather know what to come back to than to be in the dark. The latter is way more stressful for me. I was away during the holidays and responded sometimes. This time I was away for 3 weeks bc my father passed and I was out of the country. For the most part, most coworkers and clients were ok but every time I’ve been out I had 1 client angry I was away and coworkers email me work questions. For the latter it really upset me to see questions from them.

      If this happens to you, and it’s not something only YOU know and can help w, ignore the email. Put in the msg that u won’t be checking.

    7. CatCat*

      I do not check work email on vacation. My supervisor has my phone number if something really urgent were to come up.

      For out of office messages, I make sure they include when I will be back and who to contact in my absence if immediate assistance is needed.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        This.
        I will check if it I want to – if there is some benefit to me, but otherwise, I leave it until I return and know my boss will phone/text if she absolutely needs my assistance on something. Otherwise I just leave an away message with my expected return and the office general phone line if they can’t wait that long (which they normally have no problems with).

      2. Ama*

        Yes. Both my boss and my direct report have my cell phone and I make it clear to both of them that I won’t be checking my work email — unless they really really need my help, in which case they can text me and ask me to look at something. But I can trust both of them to know the difference between a real work emergency (which rarely happen in my job at a point when I’d feel comfortable going on vacation) and “hey I can’t find this file.”

        I could *not* trust my last boss to know the difference — in fact I used to joke that every time I flew somewhere on vacation, I’d get off the plane to find two text messages from my boss “Hey where is X?” and “Never mind found it.” So I would tell her that I probably wasn’t going to be near my phone very often so I may not see her texts, and then I’d tell a trusted coworker that if there was a *real* emergency, coworker could text me and then I’d know I really needed to respond.

    8. Persephone Mulberry*

      My only real pet peeve with OOO messages is when people forget to change them back after they return.

      It is helpful if you can give a specific instruction for a caller who needs their matter dealt with more immediately, i.e. “if your issue is time sensitive, please press 0 and ask for Chris / please press 9 and dial ext 321 for Chris.”

      1. K.*

        At my last place of employment, I called someone and got her voicemail. Her outgoing message said she was on vacation and would return on May 15. This was in September. I was like, “I saw her in the other building earlier today though? Huh?” And it cut off after the outgoing message – I couldn’t even leave her a voicemail. I emailed her instead.

      2. Someone else*

        I always set my OOO to start and stop automatically on specific dates and times. So if it’s an hour before I’m back, it’s still on, but it turns off automatically as soon as my workday begins. I work in a different time zone than most of my colleagues and clients. I’ve taken to not only saying the date I’ll return, but also the time including timezone, because for a while there every time I came back from vacation I’d have an email from some annoyed person at 5am and then 6am, the one at 5am with some normal work email, the one at 6am complaining that my OOO said I was back TODAY so why was my OOO still on and why had I not responded yet? Not suggesting you’d do that of course, just your peeve reminded me of that happening, since I make a point to ensure it’ll turn on and off on its own, and I still get flack.

        1. Artemesia*

          I always set mine to turn off at noon of the day I returned to work, so I would have the morning I came back to clean up any small disasters and catch up.

          1. Ten*

            A former coworker of mine did something similar: she set hers an hour or two before she left on the day before being out to tie up any loose ends and make sure she didn’t get thrown into anything at the last second.

    9. C.*

      At my last job, I got a lot of daily emails (menu from the lunch place in the lobby, conflicts check, etc.) so I would go in every day and just delete those so when I got back into the office to really look at my email I wouldn’t freak out over the number of unread messages, but I wouldn’t click into anything substantive. I was lucky in that I 1) worked with people with good boundaries who knew I was out and wouldn’t bug me and 2) my job was such that i was hard for me to do anything out of the office anyway since it was more hands-on, so other than make me get on a plane, they were stuck

    10. K.*

      I do check email on vacation but I limit it to 10 minutes/day max and I never respond. I more do it so that I’m not completely flooded with emails when I get back.

      My biggest out of office pet peeve is when people don’t do them! That was common at my last employer, so you’d reach out to someone and not hear back for days and not know why.

    11. Yorick*

      I don’t use them unless there is no way I’ll check. I don’t respond during vacation, but I look at the messages.

      I kind of don’t like OOO messages when other people use them, but I realize that’s crazy. I have to send John this email, I can’t opt to not send it to him, and it doesn’t make sense to sit on it for a week until he gets back. I don’t want to get a message back and think it’s a response and then realize it’s an OOO.

    12. Not a Morning Person*

      Offer a contact for urgent issues, and make sure that person/department is aware and accessible and not also out of the office! I have had the experience of calling the back up person…and that backup person was also out of the office. Frustrating!

    13. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      If your vacation runs M-F and you’ll be back the following Monday, the earliest I would check any email would be the Friday afternoon.
      Of course this depends on your role. If you have underlings, they should probably have a way of getting in touch with you earlier, but only if it’s URGENT (read: the building is on fire) or particularly TIME SENSITIVE (read: need a response by Wednesday or the building will be set on fire)
      If you don’t have underlings, and only managers, I wouldn’t check email until Sunday night so you have time to transition back to work. Anything URGENT or TIME SENSITIVE should already have been dealt with by people in a higher pay grade. But checking on Sunday night gives you the ability to get up to speed on any changes, gossip, etc., before Monday morning.

    14. Little Twelvetoes*

      In my opinion, to truly have a vacation, you should not check your work email. I only will check if I am expecting something in particular. Otherwise, I setup an out of office message which informs the person of who they can contact (my supervisor or coworker) in my absence. That contact has my cell phone number so that they can reach me if something cannot (or should not) wait (for example: “where is the Penske file?”).

    15. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Just include the pertinent information such as how available you will be (not checking messages vs limited to once per day), the expected return date, and who to contact if they need immediate assistance.
      Mine usually says “I will be out of the office with no access to email and will return MM/DD/YY. If you need immediate assistance contact A for this or B for that otherwise I will respond upon my return.”

    16. Eye of Sauron*

      Try to have alternative contact(s) in your OOO, even if only for urgent or time sensitive things.

      Which brings me to my pet peeve. If your backup is also not going to be there for part of your time off, make sure you mention their backup. Nothing more frustrating than getting an OOO that says to contact Jane for urgent matters, only to get an OOO from Jane telling you she’s out of the office. (Totally understandable for unexpected sick days and things).

      Here’s what I do…
      Thank you for your email. I will be out of the office 2/1-5, and will not be responding to email or calls. For urgent or time sensitive issues, please contact the following:

      Jane 2/1-3
      Fergus 2/4,5

    17. SarahKay*

      Make sure that your out-of-office message doesn’t refer people to someone else who is also on vacation. This is my biggest pet peeve.
      I’m a single point of contact for my department within my site, so I do check my emails daily in case of metaphorical fires but only respond to said fires, or really quick questions that I know I can help on and others perhaps can’t.
      The other thing I do is to give my personal mobile (cell) phone number to the site manager and my direct manager, both of whom I trust not to abuse it and only call me if there’s a real problem. But that’s definitely a case of YMMV depending on your mangers.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        I purposely just put the general phone line for this reason. Co-worker won’t be on vacay while I am, but if she gets sick or has an emergency, she might not be available. Whoever picks up the phone will know where to direct them if they call in looking for me.

    18. Karen K*

      I was just on vacation. In spite of watching the number of new messages continually mount throughout the week, I did not check. I left my programs in the experienced hands of two of my colleagues, who had my private contact information in the case of an emergency. I trusted them to handle the mundane. My only real pet peeve about out of office messages is when people forget to turn them off! I can set start and end dates and times, which is awesome, but others either don’t know you can do that, or like to drive people crazy.

    19. Alice*

      I like to include info in my away message about how to schedule something with me when I get back. That way, even though people can’t get advice from me right away, they can book something in our calendars and feel satisfied that some concrete step forward has been taken. Obviously this depends on having a good calendaring setup with Outlook or Calendly or something….
      Also about calendars in a different sense — I’d suggest blocking off some time in your first few days back to triage and respond to all the email that will have built up.

    20. Jadelyn*

      If you’re hourly, any time spent on email needs to be logged as paid work time, just FYI.

      That aside, hell no. My immediate manager and my team have my cell # and know they can text me if something is truly going up in flames that they can’t put out without my help, and I trust them to make the judgment call on whether or not to bring me in. If they don’t contact me, I assume they’re doing fine.

      I will sometimes check my email the night before my first day back at work, just to give myself some idea of what I’m going to be walking into the next day, but I don’t respond to anything.

      Re out of office messages, just make it clear when you’ll be back and who people can turn to for stuff that can’t wait! I honestly don’t care if someone tells me they’re on vacation, at a conference, out of the country…I don’t need to know that. Just tell me when I can expect a response or how to get what I need from someone else while you’re gone.

    21. Healthnerd*

      I think it really depends on timing, your position and office culture. For a long weekend (most often visiting family or friends), I will put an OOO but then check in occasionally to see if there are emails I can give a quick response to. For more extended vacations (which sounds like yours is), I do not check emails and remove the temptation to do so. I will unsync that mailbox on my ipad (my phone uses separate email apps for work vs personal email) and I make it very clear in my OOO that I will not be responding to emails until I return. For these, I almost always list another point person in case their is an emergency. I also update any frequent contacts that I will be out of the office and who to contact. I dont want a work emergency (that most often can wait of can be handled by someone else) to ruin a relaxing vacation. Again, this is all very dependent on your office culture and expectations.

    22. Blue_eyes*

      I do check my email on vacation, but next month I’m going on my first vacation where I won’t be able to check my email for some stretches (traveling internationally and will only have email when on wifi).

      I usually include something like “If this is an URGENT matter, please contact Jane at jane@company dot com”. Jane can’t actually do much of my work, but she is familiar enough to triage anything urgent and decide whether it’s worth calling me, our boss, or someone else.

    23. willow*

      And you can definitely put a name and email and phone number of an associate they can contact in your absence.

    24. LAI*

      My pet peeve is away messages that say “your email is very important to me”. Because that’s obviously not true! You have no idea what I’m emailing you about in advance so you can’t say whether it’s important and just saying that EVERYTHING is important means that obviously NOTHING is…

    25. Book Lover*

      I just say when I will return and give contact info for secretary in case something can’t wait and has to be addressed by someone else.

      I do check my email while away, but I have asked that I not be messaged with things that will upset me and can’t be handled while I am away (complaints, fortunately rare). I typically only answer if not answering could result in more work for me down the line (typically scheduling issues).

      I get irritated by out off office messages that say ‘I will have limited access to emails’ – that is a given, otherwise you wouldn’t have out of office on. And I don’t love the ones who say they won’t be back if they win the lottery, but these are minor nitpicks.

    26. MLB*

      Depends on the type of work you do, but when I’m on vacation I’m ON VACATION. I don’t check emails AT ALL, and we all back each other up in my office so if it’s super urgent my manager knows how to get in touch (but it’s never happened). Since you’re new, maybe ask your boss about expectations, but it’s your time off and you shouldn’t have to worry about work while you’re away.

    27. Susan*

      Hawaii is so fun – have a great time!

      I agree with others before me re: message including backup contacts, being clear on your availability for reading email (strong vote from me to not look while on the actual vacation – too easy to stress), and if possible setting expiration of the message in the email system if supported.

      I go on vacation starting next week (yay!) and realized that I own a lot of recurring meetings. I will be going through calendar and setting them so others can modify/delete as needed. Might want to check that, as well as things like document permissions, that people know where file ‘X’ is…

    28. Shark Lady*

      I do not check email AT ALL while I’m on vacation. My boss and my counterpart have my cell phone and will let me know if the building burns down. Everything else will have either been handled by them in my absence or can wait for my return. Of course, I’ll come back to 1000 unread emails if I’m gone for a week, so I do have to set aside time to go through those.
      I always say that I won’t be checking email and give the date I’ll be back, my department email distribution for general inquiries and my boss’s contact info for escalations.

    29. ModernHypatia*

      I do an internal out of office message, but I also get a non-trivial number of questions from people outside the institution (and I live in fear of the ooo message doing weird things in mailing lists. Apparently I can’t get over that happening in something like 1997.)

      So I dip in for five minutes every day or two, and forward anything relevant to people who can deal with it, or sometimes do a really quick “I’m on vacation, I’ll be able to look at this when I’m back in the office on X” (where I give the day after I’m actually getting back.)

    30. Ramona Flowers*

      Okay so I misread this as asking if you have an out-of-office message pet and was basically imagining a dog guarding your desk for you.

    31. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      No real pet peeves, and nothing to add on the email part, but something I learned from my vacation:

      With the time zone difference (depending on where you are from) you may not be able to respond in a needed and timely manner. Might be best to opt for “will not be checking emails”. Takes the pressure off as far as you feeling like you have to.

      My cell service was poor in the area I was in (I was wandering around Oahu) so while I could call checking my email by phone and responding took forever… I finally just gave it up for a bad job and checked at the hotel. If I remember correctly I might have updated my out of office to reflect not being able to check and notified my boss I wouldn’t be able to respond like I thought I could.

      Note that service on the island was generally good, my companions had no issue. It was just me. Maybe it was a sign I shouldn’t have been working. :)

      Enjoy your vacation!

    32. Windchime*

      Congratulations! I just got back from 10 days in Hawaii and it was glorious.

      And no; I don’t check work email on vacation because…….I’m on vacation. My boss knows I don’t check and she certainly doesn’t expect me to. If there was an emergency that only I could solve (not likely!), then I hope she would text me and I would hop online and take a look. But I don’t really have the kind of job where that’s necessary.

    33. Oilpress*

      Pet Peeve: Do not list an alternate contact in your out of office message unless you have discussed this with them beforehand and they are actually able to help cover what you do.

  3. Bad Candidate*

    Hello, AAMers. I had an interview this week that went well enough that they asked me back for a second one this coming Wednesday. First interview was with the hiring manager. Second one will be with team members, but the hiring manager will also be there I believe. What questions should I ask them? I’ve already asked about culture, goals, and management style. This is a new role so I can’t ask the “magic” question.

    1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Ask them what they are looking for in a fellow team member? Is this a new role for you or for them? if it’s a new role for them, ask them why the role was needed and what their expectations are for someone in the role 3-6 months down the road and then a year from now.

    3. Rat Racer*

      Or how about the career trajectory of this role – what could it potentially grow into? You can also ask broader questions about team growth and company strategy, if you have them.

    4. Anna*

      Since they’re team members, you could ask about how they collaborate on projects or where they see the new person fitting into the team.

    6. Emmie*

      What kinds of work will be assigned to the new position? Who is doing the work now? How will that transition be handled? How do you see this position helping / interacting with the team? What kind of advice can you give me about the position? What does a successful team member look like here? What does good performance look like? What are some big changes you’ve had as a team, and how did you handle that? (I’ve held several new positions. They evolve so much, and it impacts other people’s roles too. You want an idea of how they handle that.)

      1. designbot*

        ^ I like these. They seem most likely to help you suss out if you’re be relying on a specific person a lot (and then assess, are they someone you click with, or someone who rubs you the wrong way?), or if there’s no plan in place about how to include this new role.

    7. JD SAHE*

      Depending on the type of job, and your industry, it may help to figure out why things are structured how they are or ask them how they are planning on coping/changing things based on X. I just did a round of interviews, and I found that when it came to the last four employers, I went with the group that had the most well thought out plan for how they were going to reflect the big change coming down the pipeline in our industry – but i was also very interested in how each employer had divvied up the responsibilities. Is your manager just a manager, or are they the subject matter expert? How do you account of new or learning employees?

    8. The Ginger Ginger*

      The questions – What will a typical day/week look like for this employee? and How will you be measuring success for this employee? – are REALLY helpful always, but with a newly created role it will also tell you how deeply they’ve thought about the part this new position plays on the team and how they’ll be gauging performance. Both things that will majorly impact you if you take the position.

      They may not have every answer, and of course, a new role will always evolve somewhat, but you want them to have put some time and serious thought into the position going into it. You don’t want to find you don’t have enough work, or you have too much work, or the work is so scattered that it’s hard to complete successfully.

      1. Future Analyst*

        +1. Agreed: you’ll want some sort of indication that they’ve thought this through thoroughly. Otherwise, everyone could hold disparate ideas of what they want out of the situation, and everyone ends up unhappy (which wouldn’t be your fault, but definitely your problem). Good luck!!

    9. periwinkle*

      You can still ask the magic question! Just re-frame it to acknowledge that it’s a new role with some uncertainties around it.

      Something like this: “Based on the needs that prompted the creation of this role, what kind of results would you expect a successful performer to achieve over the next two years?” (followed by) “What would that person be doing to get those results?”

      I hear this called right-to-left thinking (yay corporate jargon) but it’s basically the model for my work: define the ideal results first and then figure out how to get there.

      1. o.b.*

        My version of the “magic question” is “What is the most important skill or trait someone needs to succeed in this role?” Totally applicable to all roles, old or new. Even if they haven’t thought about long-term deliverables (which they should have! they did make a position for it!), they’ll have thought about what kind of employee they’d like to hire

    10. nep*

      (What’s with the handle? Good candidate!)
      Congratulations on getting this far. Well done.
      I would ask an interviewer: What would be the most important task or set of tasks for me to really master and excel at as soon as possible…Something along those lines.
      All the best. Look forward to an update.

  4. Sunflower*

    I’m looking into applying for some sales/recruiting jobs that would be partially commission-based. I’ve never worked in this type of role and am wondering what questions to ask and what to look for in job postings to make sure the job is legit and the pay/breakdowns are on par with the industry average. I have absolutely no clue what kind of questions to ask or what numbers I should be looking for.

    1. ChicagoRecruiter*

      Most reputable staffing/search firms are very up front with how their compensation works (salary vs draw, commission plans, etc.). They are used to explaining comp plans to candidates so you won’t be out of line asking what the comp break down is.

    2. gabih*

      Maybe ask for an example of what your KPIs would look like? Also, be careful of roles that promise boatloads of OTE, especially if there’s a huge base salary/OTE gap. This obviously will depend on what industry/role you’re going for, but you want them to have realistic expectations of you.

    3. theletter*

      you’ll want to ask about training and onboarding, and what support you’ll receive then.

      These jobs are great if you like being on the phone, building relationships with with people, and you feel, at least a little, driven by money.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      You might also inquire about how commissions and client information are handled after you leave. Often in sales and recruiting you have put in a significant amount of time building relationships that may take time before they finally result in a billable deal. If you’ve put in all of the work bringing in a client or setting up a sale, but for whatever reason leave the company before the final invoice is paid — do you still get your commission up to a certain time frame — maybe a year? Is there a clause that you have to cease any business contact with clients and hand over all their contact information, or do you retain the ability to take your clients with you?

  5. Quitter*

    Quit my toxic job. And my boss’s reaction confirmed I made the right choice. This is going to be the longest two weeks ever!

    1. Penny*

      Congrats! I did the same around this time last year and it felt so damn good! Good luck with your last two weeks!

    2. Archie Goodwin*

      Wonderful feeling, isn’t it? Knowing you’re out the door from a place like that.

      Many congratulations, and I wish you all happiness in the future. :-)

        1. Quitter*

          We’ve gone through some tough times so I stuck it out. Got through everything got our department in excellent shape running smoothly, its our slow time now……But I’m leaving him in a bind and he demanded I stay longer.

    7. rldk*

      Remember Alison’s awesome language for the transition period with a bad boss – I linked a story in my username. If your boss is hostile or otherwise makes working two more weeks unfeasible, they’re sacrificing the professional courtesy of the notice period.

    8. Slartibartfast*

      Keep your eyes focused on the light at the end of the tunnel. They can’t hurt you at this point. Don’t forget you have the option to just walk away.

    9. Lady Phoenix*

      I am glad you left.

      I recommend maybe planning something special at the end of that 2 weeks (tickets to see a show/movie, a vacation, something awesome) so that it will give you an extra treat for seeing those 2 weeks off.

      Also I find that looking forward to something awesome helps makes the 2 weeks go faster and smoother.

      1. einahpets*

        Yeah, the night after I gave my notice I booked a fancy resort hotel for the week after I leave near a local themepark. I’m taking my kids and just going to be a kid myself for a few days!

    10. einahpets*

      I gave my notice this week too! The last two months I have been told multiple times that I was going to be part of a layoff, and then HR gave us an hour-long timeframe of when notices would go out. The director of our department sent an email AFTER that hour to say “by the way, our department was not effected by the layoffs”.

      When I gave my notice on Monday my manager was confused on why I’d be upset. I have been here for 6 months and for a third of that time I’ve been told it was a good idea to be looking for a new opportunity. I’m done. I have an offer at a place that is much more stable.

  6. Pros and Cons*

    I need help with the perspective of pros and cons of your jobs. I know social media is a big filter because of course the people I follow aren’t going to blast their employer on the Net but it can be frustrating to see the constant ‘wow, I love my job/greatest job ever’ online. Like I’m super envious of my friend who works with dogs and posts daily dog photos but I also know she is outside a lot no matter the weather and the work is only part-time. So can you all share the pros and cons of your jobs?

    I’ll start: I’m administrative support to a specials events planning team.

    Pros:
    – Work is definitely more interesting when you’re discussing center pieces and prize wheels, and there is always something new to work on, it’s never repetitive
    – Flexible hours and can work from home
    – Much more friendly coworkers than my last job
    – Researching a wide variety of interesting topics (upcoming events, unique gifts for clients)

    Cons:
    – Open floor plan (oh man, how I hate this)
    – Private company means less holidays
    – Despite the ‘fun business’, it always comes back to money, which gets tossed around a lot thanks to working so closely with our big bosses
    – Short timelines mean we’re always at max capacity, always in a busy season
    – It’s weirdly a little disappointing to create these fun and interesting events and not be able to actually take part in them

    So care to share your specific pros and cons?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Pros: Close to home, pay is good, company is well-respected and in a fun business. My boss is great, as is her boss; my coworkers are all nice-to-tolerable. Some flexibility with hours and a boss who would totally understand if I needed to leave early or arrive late. I can take on projects I find interesting. Cool freebies from time to time, nice, new, comfortable work environment. Great coffee available.

      Cons: Despite a company culture encouraging occasional to regular work from home, I really can’t (customer-facing, expected to help answer phones); things are slow to change and departments don’t talk to each other well (I’m trying to help fix that actually); November and December are extremely busy and it’s hard to get a lot of time off for holidays. We really need 1 or 2 more people in this department but it probably won’t happen.

    2. LKW*

      Pro: dealing with family issue so I am working remotely until I decide not to work remotely. Did not ask for this permission – told them this is how I’d be working.

      Con: Typical day is 12+ hours right now. Ah the joys of global teams!

    3. RManager*

      Caveat: I’m not on the US.

      I’m a regulatory manager (of processes, not people).

      Pros:
      – Flexible hours, can work from home in bad weather/when I have appointments
      – Salary is amazing (at my company but we’re generally relatively high paid)
      – Lots of interaction with different functions
      – Organization abilities are a big plus and I haz them
      – Eye for detail is appreciated rather than being taken as nitpicking
      – Variety! Often I don’t know whats happening that day.

      Cons:
      – Hours can he really really long
      – If something goes wrong hours are even longer
      – The work experience is hugely dependent on whether your colleagues are capable / know how to do their job, i.e. lots of dependence on other people
      – So. Many. Meetings. (and deadlines, but I don’t mind deadlines so much)
      – The variety surprise factor has a flip side, because so many things can go wrong

      1. Ms. Meow*

        I’ve actually had a conversation with my therapist about this yesterday. I’m a Lab/Project Manager

        Pros:
        – Amazing coworkers
        – Understanding management (both my boss and her boss are great)
        – 40 hour work week with sporadic, but minimal, overtime
        – Flexible working time/location (including adapting schedules for appointments and WAH options)
        – Comprehensive benefits
        – Great salary
        – Short commute
        – Great 401k matching

        Cons
        – Very few options for upward mobility
        – I find a lot of the work to be boring
        – Emails that warn about upcoming emails and then further reminder emails afterward
        – Poorly run meetings
        – Disconnect with company objectives and goals
        -* Hiring freeze that has left several groups running bare bones for over a year
        -* IT issues out the wazoo
        *Those last two have a lot to do with M&A activity which bigwigs say will improve ~soon~ but they’ve been saying that for months

        1. IKnowRight?*

          I found talking with a therapist about this stuff super helpful. It’s how I moved on from a low-paying “dream” job to something that fit my values and goals better. Good for you for discussing this with your therapist.

          1. Ms. Meow*

            Thanks! I actually started in therapy again because my general malaise about work manifested into depression. The pros of my job are a really rare and fantastic combination, but the main con is that I simply just don’t like what I do. But I’m terrified of a “grass is always greener” situation. I’m starting to apply for jobs but taking it slowly, and I’m being sure in exactly what is required for me to be happy and satisfied.

      2. Arlene*

        Program Director in a non-profit:
        PROS-
        -the programming and mission is near and dear to my heart
        -much of the work involves nurturing relationships and collaborations with partners around the state
        -always learning, reading, exploring new content
        -organization has a strong reputation, does a lot of impressive work
        -full time job with benefits in this field are hard to come by
        -job is close to home
        -good benefits
        -mostly reasonable workload

        CONS
        -paternalistic, condescending, controlling CEO (my supervisor)
        -never had a job with less autonomy (see above)
        -internal culture is silo-ed, defensive, lacking in accountability (see above)

    4. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I’m a database developer at a large state university.

      Pros:
      – I have good bosses – my biggest pro. They treat us like adults. I have set work hours, but if I’m 30 min late because I just couldn’t get the toddler out the door, no one cares. My manager trusts me to get my work done. We have weekly team meetings, but he’s not a micromanager or a hands-off manager – he does the right amount of managing!
      – I have a good team. They also treat me like an adult. I’m a young looking woman and I didn’t come into IT from a traditional route, so I have a lot of gaps in my knowledge. They are helpful and friendly and I don’t ever feel like I’m being talked down to. But they are also rather introverted like me, so we don’t overshare or talk each other to death – our personalities mesh well.
      – Pay is great for my skill level and what I do, largely thanks to my manager.
      – I have an actual career path and goals that I’m working towards, thanks to my manager.
      – Our division has a good CIO who share many of my same values (I mean, I think he’s good…obviously biased!).
      – Excellent benefits – my health insurance is amazing, I earn 10 hours vacation each month (and it goes up with my state service tenure), I get additional sick pto.

      Cons:
      – I am in a cubicle, which isn’t the worst, but I used to have a nice private office with a big window in my old job and I miss that.
      – I have to be in the office every day, I used to do 60% telecommuting.
      – Like any organization, there’s a lot of blame shifting that goes around when problems occur. I think our CIO is trying to work on this but it’s a difficult cultural problem to mitigate.
      – my commute is long since I have to drop my toddler off at various babysitters, but this will likely change in the future – I just live in an area that forces me to have some roundabout routes

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        I will add that my bosses let us telecommuting occasionally for things like the plumber coming over, or a bad weather day, or when everyone lost their minds about gas availability in DFW, etc. So it’s not totally banned, it’s just something we can use within reason.

      2. Weyrwoman*

        I’ve been a woman in IT myself and I’m wondering what the “traditional route” looks like?

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          Most of the people I work with came into IT because they did some type of CSE or Infosys degree in college, got a specific “IT” job (not just like para-IT department or something) right out of college, and worked their way up. I’m at a university so a lot of people did start at the help desk or entry level positions here, and then worked their way up. That’s what I consider “traditional”. In my instance, I got an English degree, messed around in a few different jobs with some “IT” elements (graphic design, instructional design, data analysis), but was never part of “IT proper” until this past year. The “traditional” people seem to have a much better grasp of overall IT infrastructure (networking, security, hardware, etc.) than I do. Like if I put in a firewall request, I often miss ports or some other necessary piece that for everyone else seems to be second nature.

    5. Lore*

      Production editor at large publishing company
      Pros:
      –tons of variety and lots of interesting projects to work on
      –generally flexible schedule as long as deadlines are met, and ability to work from home on a case-by-case basis
      –smart, engaged, articulate coworkers
      –lots of free books
      –respected company with good benefits

      Cons:
      –industry as a whole is lower-paying than many of the things people with my education/seniority could be doing
      –my position in particular is on the “low-glamour” side of the industry–lots of responsibility with not a lot of authority
      –very stable workforce which means few opportunities for promotion or advancement
      –truly terrible office space redesign a few years back has us in workstations very poorly suited to the nature of our work

        1. Lore*

          It’s a blessing and a curse. The piles are taking over my apartment. And my tiny, tiny cubicle. I think I’d have to not leave the house for two years just to get through the backlog on my iPad, let alone the piles.

      2. Penny*

        I’ve very interested in getting into editing and am very curious learn more about it. What is your background and what do you do on a daily basis in your job?

        1. Lore*

          I am not the kind of editor people usually think of–the kind who buys books from agents and works with authors on developing them. I’m a production editor, which means I handle all the logistical and content aspects of getting a book from manuscript to bound book–copy editing, proofreading, interior design, legal clearances and text permissions, working with the author to make sure all their late-stage changes are incorporated, etc. I don’t do all of those things for all of my projects–that’s why we hire a ton of freelancers!–but I supervise, coordinate, and “polish” them. I’m usually working on 20-30 active projects in any given month, so my days involve some combination of: following up with authors/editors/management on the whereabouts of materials I was supposed to have, hiring freelancers and trafficking work to them, prepping Word files to be imported into InDesign and to be copyediting, reviewing proofs and collating author and proofreader changes into master sets, reviewing jacket/cover copy or mechanicals, reviewing ebooks, database management, and just generally putting out fires. I’m also sort of the “team lead” for some of the digital workflow tools we use, so sometimes I’m either training or troubleshooting with that kind of thing.

          I got into this kind of work through freelancing–I had a part-time job in grad school at a publishing and research project where I discovered I had the innate skills you need to proofread (I can teach someone how to mark proofs, but it’s very very hard to teach someone to see like a proofreader if it doesn’t come intuitively) and learned the markup. When I left school, I was temping in the admin side of publishing and picked up some freelance proofreading and editing; that combination got me an entry-level job at a scholarly publisher. My leap to trade publishing was a lot of right-place-right-time–I had a friend at one of the big houses, someone in her department left, and my combo of database work, proofreading/copyediting, and early forays into digital publishing made me a good fit for the position. I’ve been moving around the same company ever since.

      3. nep*

        Sounds terrific, all in all. Free books.
        Hi, Lore. You recently suggested how one might find you on LinkedIn. A lot of editors came up and I’m not sure how to find you…Could you offer another tip? Thank you

        1. Lore*

          If you google the exact string I used (editor, writer, proofreader, copy editor) + LinkedIn, I am the first person who comes up, and my handle is part of my name.

    6. Landshark*

      I’m an adjunct professor at a community college.

      Pros:
      My college has several campuses that I can commute to, so I don’t get the feeling of being cooped up in one building, I’m doing what I love, my department and the college are very supportive of my colleagues and me, teaching adults is way more fun than teaching kids.

      Cons:
      I’m still only part time (hoping that will change within the next year or two!), things like enrollment change by the semester so much that I’m busy some semesters and basically free others (right now, I only teach one class because my classes are heavily loaded for incoming students in the fall), and changes in leadership at the college mean dramatic shifts in course offerings, college protocol, and future goals and paths for the college, but we’re mostly just along for the ride, for better or for worse

    7. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Pros: Easy commute; not too stressful; interesting co-workers; learning new technical aspects of the job; a few perks (some of the senior people will buy breakfast and/or lunch )

      Cons: open floor plan (I would give just about anything for a cubicle); Long hours; unable to telecommute

    8. TeacherNerd*

      Pros:
      — I don’t have to work in an office.
      — No ridiculous 9-5 office hours.
      — I get to work with teenagers. I love me some high school kids!
      — I’m home by 3:15 each day because I work 4 1/2 miles from home.
      — I get to chaperone high school dances.
      — supportive colleagues, administrators, and parents
      — I earn enough to travel internationally every summer if I want to (not that I do travel internationally every summer). And no, I don’t mean Canada or Mexico when I say “international” (ain’t nothin’ wrong with Canada or Mexico).

      Cons:
      — I have to be up at 6 a.m. (Boo!)
      — More to do with others’ attitudes; for example, people think teachers always have the “summer off.” (I do have the financial flexibility to not actually have to work summers, but I’m over 40 and childless, so I don’t have the same financial obligations others have.) I’ve also had students ask me how I can afford to travel. I don’t know how poor people think teachers are, but many of us go interesting places, like national parks and places on the other side of the globe.
      — micromanaging parents who think I hate their kid or blame me because the kid is failing because the kid doesn’t turn in the work, etc.

      1. Portia*

        I’m a teacher, too. :)
        Pros:
        -Mostly I get to focus on material that really interests me, and I can change material whenever I want to keep myself from getting bored
        -I love my students and seeing them learn
        -Summers off, holidays, spring break, etc.
        -I have my own classroom and enough prep periods to mentally recharge
        -Very supportive administration and parents
        -I’m usually home by 4:00 and (sometimes!) get to use that time to enjoy other hobbies
        Cons:
        -This year I have WAY too many students so I’m buried in grading. I constantly feel behind and semi-panicked. Administration understands it’s a problem but definitely isn’t able to fix it this year. If they don’t fix it as promised next year, I will really have to go to bat for myself on this. Ugh.
        -As a result of the first point, I take a lot of work home with me.
        -The pay is okay but not stellar. I know I could make more at a different school, but I really like my school.
        -I am “on” all day while teaching and, as an introvert, feel totally wiped out by the end of the day.

        On balance, the good outweighs the bad for sure. I really like my job.

    9. KR*

      Pro: I get to travel, short commute, flex my hours to a certain degree, bring my dog to work if I want, I have a great manager, the pay isn’t too shabby, and the company is big enough that I get a lot of benefits/swag/perks associated with a big company. I don’t have to dress fancy for work and I don’t deal with customers, which is great.

      Con: I really don’t like my office. My office chair is uncomfortable, the lighting is harsh and gives me headaches, the way my desk is set up (which is like the only option to work with our stupid floor plan) leaves me stuck in a corner with no room to spread out, and one of my co-workers can be seriously loud. I so wish I had a cubicle or office to myself instead of a big open space for the three of us. It’s in a shopping center too so there’s always random people walking by and music bumping and noise from our neighbors. Also, most of our team is remote which makes certain aspects of my job so much harder.

      1. KR*

        Re reading this my main complaint is clearly my office. Honestly if I could get some natural light instead of the awful overhead lights it would make my job 1000% better.

    10. Lora*

      I’m a professional geek for pharma (process development – somewhere between science and engineering).

      Pros:
      Pay is good. Decent, anyways. Benefits decent for a US company, we usually get three weeks of PTO and good health care, dental, life insurance etc. I have a nice middle class lifestyle.
      Job is really important. I make drugs for curing lots of horrible diseases. Have put multiple drugs in the clinic from Discovery. Worked in Discovery for a while. It’s a calling, not just a job.
      I’m in a hotspot for the field, so they generally treat us respectfully. Like adults, in any case. Safety and environmental regulations are mostly adhered to. I manage my own time for the most part.

      Cons:
      I’m in a hotspot for the field, and there aren’t many. The other major one is on the west coast. It’s not a good idea to move anywhere not a hotspot, because if you get laid off in a merger/acquisition (which happens about every 2 years if you’re in a major company) you won’t have anywhere to go and you’ll have to move again. Housing is a problem as a result.
      Our marketing departments are basically Satan incarnate. I’ve sat through a lot of company-wide trainings that were part of a massive multi-billion $ settlement (penalty) for Marketing Screwed Up AGAIN.
      Very white male dominated. Very sexist, much racism.
      Occasionally get asked by employers to do something shady for them. Professional ethics are tested with depressing regularity. Sometimes we are able to work it out – a senior QA person leaps to the rescue, the offending manager is fired or demoted, sometimes the manager actually listens and chooses a different course of action. Very rarely we are not able to work it out and then I find another job.

      1. Bea W*

        This sounds very much like my last employer. I frittered so much of my life away in Marketing Screwed Up AGAIN trainings that had nothing to do with my job function. They were also the main cheerleaders of the company’s PAC and started actively recruiting and sending out political action alerts last year telling employees which bills they should tell their elected reps to support/not support. *barf*

        1. Lora*

          Oh god. My first employer after grad school was really good about keeping politics out of the office and never mentioned anything to us unless it was in the news, and even then it was like, “this Supreme Court decision happened, and here is how it will affect us” or “this tax bill happened, and here is how it will affect us”. The company that bought us was very heavy-handed in contrast, fussing at us to donate to their PAC and all kinds of political crap about who we should vote for, to the point that we all stared at each other and asked, “is this legal?” even when they were telling us to vote for the person we would have voted for anyway.

          Answer: yes, it was legal. But creepy and intrusive.

    11. BlueWolf*

      Some things can be both pros/cons
      Pros:
      -Good benefits and salary
      -Mostly predictable work load/schedule
      -Almost never need to work overtime (non-exempt with set schedule), no after-hours work from home or answering emails if not at the office
      -Coworkers are nice
      -Good location
      -Hour long lunch

      Cons:
      -Not necessarily the most intellectually stimulating/meaningful work
      -Set schedule means having to use leave for any appointments (no flex-time)
      -Communication from the top seems a bit lacking
      -A lot of turnover in staff

    12. Amadeo*

      I am a web specialist at a US university in the main marketing office:

      Pros:
      – Extra holidays (that week between Christmas and New Year’s is so lovely) and shortened hours during the summer (who knew that an hour a day can make such a huge difference?)
      – All of our work is internet-based; I’m supposed to technically be in the office every day, but if I am sick or there’s more than a couple inches of snow (I have a longer commute than others) I have the unofficial option to work at home so long as it’s just once in a while
      – Salaried, nobody cares if I’m 10 minutes late
      – Awesome coworkers and occasional opportunities to learn a new skill

      Cons:
      – I’m in the marketing office. Ultimately we answer to the university president. Sometimes there’s A LOT of pressure to get something done, or get a result we can’t entirely control (i.e. enrollment numbers)
      – We’re beholden to the whims of the state’s government with the budget. We just suffered a RIF because of it.
      – Academics. Most faculty are quite reasonable, but there are a few with some superiority problems because of their education
      – See con #1 it’s occasionally feast or famine. Lots of projects can come in with very tight deadlines indeed, or we have to mine the site for redesign projects for something to do.

      1. Anon here*

        This has never happened to me on AAM before but I’m almost entirely certain we work for the same employer! Your description of the holidays and state budget cuts made me go, “hmm…” and then when I clicked the link in your name and saw where you’re located… I don’t know where else you could work. Super weird, and also a little creepy.

      2. KayEss*

        I’ve worked in marketing at universities and OH GOD THE ACADEMICS. I actually know someone who transitioned from a faculty role into a staff support role and was like, “you know, I never believed when I was faculty that faculty could be the problem… but faculty are absolutely the problem.”

        Worked for a while at a university with a large, prestigious medical school and learned that the only thing worse than faculty is faculty who are also (medical) doctors. Always kind of wanted to work somewhere with a big law program to see if faculty who are also lawyers could top that!

    13. CheeryO*

      I’m a regulatory engineer at a state agency.

      Pros: pay is good; PTO is fantastic; good health insurance; a pension; 37.5 hour workweek; the work is varied and interesting most of the time; atmosphere is generally laid-back, and we very rarely have tight deadlines; most of my coworkers are very smart and incredibly passionate about what they do; lots of flexibility to get out in the field as much as we want, on whatever schedule we choose; my boss is fantastic.

      Cons: small contingent of deadbeats lumping around until retirement, at which point they will make more in a year from their pension than most people make working full-time; a lot of paper pushing and bureaucratic nonsense; no budget to replace ancient computers/printers/etc.; having to prioritize projects based on politics; having the shots ultimately get called by people who have no idea what actually goes on in the real world; things can get incredibly slow since there is only so much proactive work we can do; no free anything, ever; culture is very much ~like a family~ with the line between work and personal life waaay too blurry at times.

      1. CheeryO*

        Darn, that’s a lot of negatives! I really do like my job most of the time. More positives would be our downtown location by the waterfront, large offices, and random holidays that a lot of people don’t get (President’s Day, Election Day, etc.).

        1. Where's the Le-Toose?*

          Managing attorney for the State of California:

          Pros:
          – Being a public servant. It’s rewarding, meaningful, and I’m so proud of what I do.
          – Fantastic health insurance, dental, and vision
          – Defined benefit pension plan, including for new hires
          – 40 hour work week 10 months out of the year
          – Some of the best people I have ever worked with in my entire life
          – Civil service job protection

          Cons:
          – The bureaucracy is the worst. Worse than the bad boss in Dilbert or Lumbergh in Office Space. Just mind numbingly awful.
          – 2 months out of the year my agency is working 6-7 days a week. And I’m salaried exempt.
          – While the number of weak performer employees in our office is quite few, the amount of paperwork needed to either reprimand or terminate them for sub par work is agonizing. It takes forever.
          – Civil service pay scale means no matter how hard you work, you will get the same raise as the person who is just meh and the same raise as the office slug. And then once you top out on the pay scale, you only get a raise when there is a salary COLA. You might get three COLAs in a row, then get no COLAs for 5-6 years. When this next COLA finishes in July, we probably won’t get another salary COLA until 2021-24.

      2. anoncanon*

        I was wondering whether another state worker would chime in. I’m a regulatory inspector for a state agency.

        Pros:
        -Great pay and health insurance.
        -40 hour workweek that is fairy flexible for us field workers. We generally have to start between 6-9am and finish from 4-6pm and we can flex (within reason) throughout the pay period to hit our hours.
        -I determine the majority of my days unless there is a meeting.
        -Interesting work and I get to work with a lot of different, but related, industries.
        -My good coworkers are very good at what they do and are very thoughtful.
        -My office is my home and we are provided state vehicles and computers. Office days mean no in person communications, which I personally enjoy.
        -I could conceivably retire in this position and I’m in my 30’s (assuming there aren’t massive state budget cuts and/or I don’t end up hating the position). Personally, I like this because I do not enjoy job hopping and I also do not live in an area with high job opportunities.

        Cons:
        -No more pension plan within most of our state agencies, but when the regulated industry is angry with me they often bring this up first (that I’m a lazy pension leech). Pensions haven’t been offered to new employees since the 90’s.
        -Definitely some deadbeats tinkering around. Or if they aren’t a deadbeat, they are extremely inefficient.
        -So slow to change. Even when we do have changes, our division in particular is horribly inept at recording policy and procedure updates.
        -Bureaucratic nonsense for sure. Due to stupidly rigid position descriptions, we lost out on promoting one of either two great employees for an important position. Instead, we hired someone who has never been in regulatory work and the repercussions are felt all.the.time. Upper management has lost a lot of our (already low) respect.
        -Some days can be very slow because often our work is reactive instead of proactive. No one wants to admit this and personally I feel guilty when this happens because I am a state employee.
        -My work team in particular has a “we’re a family” vibe, which I do not like and I often have to be the grouch
        of the group and push back.

        1. Your Tax Dollars at Work*

          I work for the state government too! I don’t know if I’m the person to ask about this because I…sort of hate my job, but here we go!

          Pros:
          -Short commute! My last job had a 1.5 hour commute each way, and now it’s only 20 minutes, on a bad day.
          -The satisfaction of serving others, blah blah blah
          -The actual work I do is awesome, researching policy, writing legislation, prepping statements. It’s exactly what I want to be doing.
          -Sorta flexible hours and great overtime benefits. For every hour I work overtime, I get a half hour of vacation time.

          Cons:
          -Politicians are nuts. All of them. No exceptions.
          -The pay is low
          -I can’t actually /use/ that great overtime benefit because my boss won’t let me take vacations from January to June, I’m not allowed to take more than a week of vacation at a time, etc.
          -But I have to work tons of overtime! Nights, weekends, holidays, you name it, there’s an event that day and I have to work it.
          -Even though I “work for the state” I can’t unionize because politicians don’t count as “employers” or something.

          1. anoncanon*

            Eesshh…luckily I don’t often interact directly with politicians. If I ever did (and it could happen) is when I am interacting with them during their “normal” job which falls under our agency’s regulations. I’ve heard from my coworkers that this can be super aggravating because they try to use their political sway and we just want to say “yeah, okay, well I’m here to inspect your business right now.”

            As for vacations, luckily we’re able to use our time, but some bosses barely look (or care) about workload to the point that work can come to a screeching halt in July and December because so many people in the main office are away.

    14. IKnowRight?*

      I work for a small nonprofit.
      Pros:
      – We’re a relatively rare beast: a unionized nonprofit! Therefore I’m pretty well compensated, even for the expensive city I live in.
      – We’re small (13 people serving an international community), so I’ve had the opportunity to take the lead on lots of stuff I’d never done before. I’ve seriously leveled up my skills in 3 years.
      – It took some staff turnover and culture change, but I like everyone I work with now.

      Cons:
      – Open floor plan. Burn it with fire!
      – My boss is a micromanager….who lives in another state!
      – We have a reputation for being a ‘too little, too late’ activist organization, which I believe stems directly from con #2, the micromanaging boss.

    15. Free Meerkats*

      I’m an environmental regulator for a municipality (aka, Sewer Cop).

      Pros:
      + Other than some things that need to be done either monthly or annually, it’s nearly totally free form, I have no schedule.
      + The work is varied, a combination of field and office work.
      +I get to see really cool industrial processes. Ever seen a waterjet machine cutting titanium? It’s a fireworks show! I was in the Boeing plant the day they broke the wing off the 777 static test plane (planned, they need to see how much it will take).
      + If it’s nice outside, I can decide it’s a day to be in the field; if it’s crappy, I can stay inside and do paperwork.
      + My boss, his boss, and my coworkers.
      + My work location; I have eagles in the trees, ducks on the pond, herons in the wetland – all right outside my door. I have several trails for lunchtime walks right outside the gate.
      + Reasonable pay and excellent benefits.
      + Office kitties!

      Cons:
      – It’s nearly totally free form with no schedule. This works for me, some people struggle with it.
      – I have to go into industrial areas I really don’t want to. High noise, chemical hazards, physical hazards, odors, monkeys in cages.
      – Sometimes I have to enter sewer manholes. Usually not all that bad, fresh sewage smells like dirty dishwater.
      – Sometimes when it’s crappy outside, I need to be out there anyway. Rain, snow, wind, heat, it doesn’t matter. Sometimes when it’s beautiful out, I have to be inside.
      – Certain other coworkers, who shall remain nameless.
      – My work location, the pond outside my door is a half-billion gallons of partially treated sewage.

    16. Erstwhile Anon*

      Pros:
      — I can bring my kid to work
      — it pays money
      — I enjoy some of what I do
      — I like my coworkers
      — it’s part-time

      Cons:
      — I would rather be staying home with my kid
      — my boss, whom I really like and appreciate in a lot of ways, is not skilled at setting standards and then helping his staff meet them. He’s a visionary and a spit-baller but execution and follow-through are not his strengths. He also tends to micromanage conflict which has been a continual source of frustration.
      — pay is ridiculously low but we can’t afford to go without

    17. Red Reader*

      I am a remote lead for a remote team of medical coders. My personal pros and cons are all specific to the “remote” parts of that statement.

      Pros: I’m currently sitting in a big armchair with my dog (ok, so she’s whining to go outside and chase squirrels, but usually she cuddle-naps) wearing fleecy pajamas and barefoot with cheesy crime shows playing on Netflix and I’m about to go raid the fridge for WHATEVER I WANT for lunch. I didn’t have to take time off when the furnace guy came out on Wednesday, or when my cleaning lady comes on Tuesdays. In order to be at work at 7, I have to get up at like 6:50, and when I clock out at 3:30, I’m in my living room with my knitting by 3:32. Because I’m not tied to office/building access hours, I can flex my schedule to work literally any time I want, including holidays, to conserve my PTO hours. A tank of gas lasts me for-damn-ever.

      Cons: I have a big wardrobe of work clothes that I don’t want to wear at home because puppy fur, which means my closet is full of clothes I rarely wear. I don’t get a lot of face time with my higher ups because they’re all on site, or with my reports because we’re not. I occasionally realize that I haven’t left my house or vocally spoken to someone I don’t live with in three or four days. (Luckily I have housemates, so I at least talk to humans semi regularly, not just the dogs.)

      Some people who work from home have problems with other folks not respecting that they’re working – I’ve mostly been lucky there at least.

      1. Sas*

        I like your comment. I always had a couple of questions about medical coding. If you could help, great, don’t have to. Do most work from home? People say that, but I saw somewhere where a lot work in the office, as in a hospital? What kinds of qualifications do people usually have for this type of position, anything really specific? And, do you have any links to companies that might be better than others for offfering these kinds of positions? Thank you ahead of time.

    18. lady bird*

      chemical engineer here

      Pros:
      – great (and I mean great) pay and benefits right out of college
      – 9/80 work schedule (work 9 hour days with every other Friday off)
      – get to work in a onesie jumpsuit and no makeup
      – my company hires large groups of college graduates so we have a strong group of young people/friends to work with
      – flexibility to change jobs and locations to find something that interests you

      Cons
      – sometimes very long days – working 7 AM to 6:30 PM has become somewhat regular
      – if a vital piece of equipment goes down, it’s non stop work until it’s fixed. like 24/7 hours. I almost had to cancel a pre-planned flight/vacation once
      – It’s not something I’m super duper passionate about but the money is too good to justify quitting when I’m not sure what else I want to do
      – high stress, always too much work and not enough people to do it

      1. lady bird*

        I like the concept of this post. On social media I post about the fun aspects of my life (concerts, trips, new car, etc.) but not about how I’m working 11.5 hour days in a stressful environment.

        1. NacSacJack*

          I have come to realize Social Media is your own PR platform. As any PR person will tell you, gotta craft the message.

      2. PX*

        Pretty sure I used to work for the same company, although in an office, and for sure. Seeing what site engineers had to go through if a machine broke made me pretty glad I wasnt one of them. I definitely love being able to leave work at work!

    19. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Pros:
      – I enjoy working with money
      – Right now I’m doing all written communication, which I enjoy and am good at
      – Digging deep for research is fun!
      – Well-paid, good benes
      – Employer-sponsored licensing

      Cons:
      – Lots of restrictions on what I can say or do even off the clock
      – Employer gets to monitor a lot of my financial activity for regulatory compliance
      – Unending massive bureaucracy because combination of being tightly regulated + high ethical expectations + gigantic multi-armed firm = enough red tape to wallpaper a skyscraper
      – Heavily male environment, a lot of clients get condescending and rude when dealing with women in finance

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Oh right, and more-

        Cons:
        – Tax season is six months long

        Pros:
        – Company caters meals multiple times per week through most of tax season, and it’s almost always delicious

    20. Boredatwork*

      I work in finance at a big company –

      Pros:
      Complete autonomy
      Flexible hours
      $$$
      Private office

      Cons:
      I work a ton of hours (60+)
      No room for upward growth (in title)
      intense sink or swim culture

      overall it’s a very good job, and all of my mangers treat me like an adult and leave me alone to do my work. The intense performance culture works well for me and I thrive under pressure (and when rewarded monetarily for success). Definitely not the job for everyone, and not low stress.

    21. Bea W*

      My current job at this specific employer (not indicative of my field)

      Pros:
      – It pays the bills
      – Good health plan
      – Large office with a giant window
      – Tech support is a billion times better than my last employer
      – Overall a great organization doing good things.
      – Decent raises

      Cons:
      – Horrible commute
      – Working remotely is not a thing
      – GrandBoss is a micromanager who doesn’t know what she doesn’t know
      – Inadequate infrastructure to fully support needs of my project.
      – Bored!
      – Cafeteria is 3 city blocks away and in house kitchen facilities aren’t great.

      I’m looking for another job. Unfortunately the commute and the GrandBoss (especially the GrandBoss!) make this one intolerable. :(

    22. Recruiter*

      Pros:
      -meeting LOTS of fascinating people
      -good opportunities for upward mobility and earning potential
      -the company I’m working for has a really good training program
      -office in the center of town, lots of big windows, lots of light
      -great pension scheme + rewards
      -company mentoring programs

      Cons:
      -huge open plan office (my BANE)
      -super-high turnover (60-70% first-year turnover in my company)
      -limited PTO, which, when your job is this stressful, hoo boy do you need
      -lots of illness? I don’t know if this is just my office, but about 50% of people here have basically been sick since Christmas, but they’re all dragging themselves in because, see above about PTO
      -disconnect between long-term needs and short-term drives to increase immediate sales (e.g. one of our best candidates almost left our agency because one of the other consultants here screamed at her to ‘just take this placement already!’ and implied she’d lose her current placement if she didn’t)
      -I’m in Education recruitment, so every few weeks I have to get up at 5 a.m. to take the 7 a.m. before-school shift.

    23. Maya Gold*

      I’m a researcher at a nonprofit.

      pros:
      – super interesting work that is incredibly timely and meaningful to me
      – wonderful coworkers who are smart, hardworking, and very dedicated to what they do
      – an AMAZING boss
      – pretty good benefits–in June I’ll be up to 14 vacation days + 12 sick days + 3 personal days + the week of Christmas Eve – New Years off
      – salaried–technically 9-5:30, but my boss is super flexible
      – the hours are very very consistent
      – lots of opportunities to grow/explore new things/fields

      cons:
      – the pay is noooot great, especially considering COL here
      – there’s a certain amount of office politics/personalities
      – the org is highly niche, and while it’s something I’m interested in doing now, it’s not what I want to do with my life–I’m worried about my ability to translate my work here into another job/field when I decide to leave this one.

    24. Spider*

      Pros:
      — The field I’m in and work I do is wholly aligned with my personal values
      — Very good salary here compared to the industry standard
      — Great benefits package
      — I live within walking distance of my office, so if I drive, my commute is literally 4 minutes.
      — Get along with most of my coworkers, and have become outside-of-work good friends with two of them
      — I’m constantly learning new and interesting things
      — Very low-stress job
      — Unionized, with a pretty strong union

      Cons:
      — The job itself is completely superfluous and makes me feel like a character in a Chekhov play, spending years of my life doing meaningless busywork.
      — My office is a post-hoc construction made of metal walls that don’t go all the way up to the ceiling, situated in the middle of an open floor collaborative workspace that can seat 100 people, so the noise level can be ridiculous. Right now there are only two people in that space, but I can hear their conversation clear as day. Earphones are saving my life.
      — No opportunity for advancement
      —- I have a Master’s degree (required for the professional positions) but am in a paraprofessional position
      —- There is a stark cultural divide here between professionals and paraprofessionals, which is particularly irritating since there are a lot of us paraprofessionals with our Master’s degrees and years of experience.
      —- Strong union means us paraprofessionals are forbidden from doing professional-level work, so we don’t get the professional-level experience required to become professionals.
      — I am bored to death.

    25. Joanne*

      I was a tech writer (contractor) for a federal agency.
      Pros:
      – Learned a lot about the agencies under us (FEMA, TSA, USCG, etc)
      -Learned a lot about government writing
      -Upgraded my Microsoft Office skills
      -Got to work with people who were in the military at one point
      -Worked with a very public facing division of the agency
      -Went to a lot of various places to support sector meetings and met sector chiefs
      -Met high-ranking officials

      Cons:
      -Youngest one there. The next youngest was in their 30s
      -Came in during the hurricane response, so I spent the first month in training
      -Learned the jobs of both admin assistants and tech writing, so I floated doing both
      -Got a lot of job experience for my first job out of college
      -Very micromanaged. I had to report to a government liaison who would talk to the government officer in charge and she would bring back assignments for us to do.
      -No talking/mingling with federal officers unless they initiated it
      -there was an official training course I didn’t take until December. I have the handbook at my office cube and notes about the agency. I did meet one of the military’s teachers (the people who create education courses for the military) and a lot of state agency officials
      -$$$
      -no performance plans (for my company anyways) and little to no time to meet with the managers

    26. Fiona*

      Assistant film editor!

      Pros: Exposure to really cool projects, I work with extremely nice people, it’s fast paced but people are flexible/understanding of life events, as long as you have coverage for your work.

      Cons: Unpredictable hours, late hours. (This is tough. Sometimes I’m not home until 10 PM or later). My role is reactive, meaning when someone needs something, I get it to them ASAP. Therefore, it’s not possible for me to work on my own schedule or control my own time. I am responding to others’ needs. Not the fault of my employer; that’s simply the nature of this type of job.

      Both Pro & Con: I don’t have the software/hardware at home to work remotely. The con is that I have to stay at the office late. The pro is that when I leave, I truly leave!

    27. Roja*

      I’m a dance (ballet and modern) teacher and a transcript editor, both part-time.

      Pros:
      – a lot of flexibility
      – I get to learn a lot of random stuff as an editor
      – knowing that the transcripts I produce help people who need them
      – working with kids/teens is great and watching those lightbulb moments as they progress is the best feeling
      – knowing that my dance knowledge and experience is very needed where I am, so I make a big difference
      – no commute (for my editing job)

      Cons:
      – no benefits and work level is not guaranteed (for the editor job)
      – pay is low for teaching in my area; standard rate here is what I was making straight out of college at my first studio
      – very long commute (hour each way) for teaching
      – not a lot of dance in this area, so there’s no one except my boss to talk to about my field. It’s very isolating.

    28. Ama*

      I run a grants program for a medical research nonprofit.
      Pros: I get to learn about cool science a lot and talk to really smart people doing the science, and it’s usually science that’s going to really help people.
      I work for an org that really understands that it is only as strong as its employees and that compensation, promotion and a good work-life balance are all key ways to keep those strong employees around.
      My opinion is really valued here and I can have frank conversations with our CEO about workload, timelines, etc. and also have a lot of authority to create or refine new processes within my department.

      Cons: I’m now going into my fifth year here which is long enough for the annual cycle of regular projects to start feeling routine and sometimes never ending.
      As supportive as my org is, we’re still a nonprofit, so there’s only so far the budget can stretch on staffing, and the busy times of year can be pretty intense.
      Also because we’re a nonprofit there are certain times when donor or advisor wishes have to be appeased and that can be really stressful and aggravating. (This org is actually better than most about trying to maintain some boundaries but that’s only reinforced how unavoidable this is in this sector.)

    29. Medical Librarian*

      Pros:
      – I get to work with thoughtful, talented researchers and students.
      – While faculty end up knowing “almost everything about almost nothing,” I get to contribute to, and learn about, lots of different projects.
      – I get to help early-career people who are so grateful for very simple things.
      – I never have to grade anything again!
      Cons:
      – In almost every case, library-oriented software is worse than similar software designed for wider audiences.
      – Every academic library expects significant involvement in professional organizations without full reimbursement of the associated costs.
      – It’s vanishingly rare for me to read a whole book for work.
      – Remember how Matt Taibbi said Goldman Sachs was a “vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money”? Well, scholarly publishers are vampire squid extracting money from science/academia and perverting incentives to conduct good research.
      – It’s hard to maintain my work-life balance when my collaborators (faculty and students) work 24/7.

      Some academic librarians would complain of not being respected by faculty. That definitely happens sometimes, but to be honest it’s really very rare among accomplished researchers, who tend to value skill sets that complement their own.

    30. Kath*

      I’m a technical person with a small mining company (I work on projects outside mine scope) that was recently purchased by a private entity.

      Pros:
      – I work in the corporate office in an actual city.
      – the work is very interesting and varied
      – I have a lot of autonomy in my position
      – my department has a “nook” with walls on all sides and an entrance (the rest of the office is open concept, bleh!)

      Cons:
      – I don’t have a lot of people to work with or depend on, our group is very small
      – I am the only technical person of this type in the company, so no one to talk shop with and get perspective on
      – longer commute than previously
      – I have to travel more than I’d like for longer than I’d like – mine sites aren’t that much fun to travel to

    31. The Turkey is My Spirit Animal*

      I work as professional staff in higher ed (non-teaching position).
      Pros:
      -Generous paid time off
      -Mission of institution is very positive/ contributes positively to community
      -Coworkers are mission driven and good people
      -Health benefits are very good (used to be excellent, but still quite good)
      -Easy to see the impact my work makes
      -Covered free parking

      Cons:
      -Pay. It’s terrible, unless you are faculty or administration.
      -Opportunity for advancement is nonexistent unless someone retires or dies.
      -Resistance to change aka “but this is the way we’ve always done this” syndrome
      -Ugh. The bureaucracy/ politics.

    32. Ann Furthermore*

      I’m an IT nerd and work with my company’s software to integrate it with ERP systems.

      Pros:
      – Pay is very good.
      – I get to work from home 3 days a week (love this)
      – It was a new direction in my career, and I’ve learned a ton
      – I have a great boss
      – It’s a very small company so there’s much less corporate political BS than at big companies
      – Working for a very small company means I get to do a little bit of everything and I’m not pigeonholed.
      – My schedule is very flexible, so I can do things like drop my daughter off at school, meet friends for lunch, or step out for appointments during the day

      Cons:
      – The small company atmosphere means that there are a lot of firedrills where everyone has to drop everything to work on this or that project
      – The software my company makes is very powerful, but there is a steep learning curve with it. This stuff would sell itself if we could make it easier to use. I’ve mentioned this many times but nothing ever happens. The developers and CTO are very technical and so immersed in the product that they can’t step back and look at the big picture.
      – Even though I only have to go into the office 2 days a week, it’s about 27 miles from my house, so it’s a long commute. However, this is offset by the fact that I can go in early and scoot out early to miss the worst of the rush hour. This is more about me preferring to not have to leave the house if I don’t want to.
      – There is some travel, which is fine, but the travel policy is super stingy. Like, we’re all supposed to fly Southwest, but I prefer United because I have premier status with them, plus 540,000 lifetime miles. I can usually find a United fare that is the same or less than Southwest, so I’ve been able to get around that. I also prefer to rent cars from Hertz or Avis, because they’re so convenient and easy to work with, but that’s frowned upon because they’re more expensive than others. I get it — small company, we have to be careful with how money is spent, but it’s still annoying.

    33. Overeducated*

      Interesting exercise!

      Pros:
      -Generous sick leave and can usually get approval and encouragement to telework when sick (which I am today, so I’m appreciating this)
      -The people are great – generally all friendly, knowledgeable, care about their work and like working collaboratively with each other
      -The material we work on is fascinating and I’ve learned a massive amount in my time here
      -Lots of training and professional development opportunities
      -Selfishly, my job is a good foot-in-the-door/networking type position to get to long term goals

      Cons:
      -Things take a long time and take a lot of approvals. A lot. Sometimes projects just never make it all the way to the finish line and fall through the cracks because people who don’t care about them have to approve them, and they just…never…bother, no matter how little time it would take and how many reminders you give them.
      -Cubicles, no windows
      -Being brought on as X Manager to “innovate” and think of “creative new ways to do X” and such and then finding out your leadership and organizational structure are really not supportive of doing anything different is…disappointing. Especially when they really weren’t doing X at all, so your major accomplishment in year one was a report on why and how they should consider doing X.

    34. Ingray*

      I’m a manager in a youth outreach program and I also do outpatient therapy for the same company.

      Pros:
      -the work is never boring
      -it feels good to help the community and get paid for it, I especially like managing because I can support people who are doing great work
      -coworkers are almost all really kind people
      -flexible schedule

      Cons:
      -can be very stressful
      -pay and benefits suck, I have a master’s and have been in the field for 10 years and 2017 was the first year I made more than 50k
      -coworkers can be crazy, a lot of people enter the field because of their own mental health problems, this especially sucks when one of the crazy people is your boss

    35. Weyrwoman*

      I work on a team of people that function similar to forum administrators/mods, but it isn’t for a forum.

      Pros:
      – generous WFH/sick/PTO policy
      – generous bonuses (seriously. I love this bit)
      – casual nerd office, I wear jeans every day and have Elder Scrolls statues on my desk
      – moderately friendly coworkers (my team seems to select for sarcastic jerks)
      – free healthcare and other massively helpful benefits
      – frequent food catering for other teams means there’s always free leftovers somewhere
      – I spend most of my day telling people that we can’t take their business anymore (I like this)

      Cons:
      – there’s a bit of a thought-police/groupthink atmosphere, makes it difficult for those of us who don’t fit all the way (like a miscut puzzle piece)
      – open office
      – IT’S FREEZING IN HERE (the office temp is controlled by the building owners, which isn’t us)
      – internal jobs seem to be aimed at specific individuals, but officially are open to anyone with quals
      – the team I’m on seems to be forgotten about a lot, which means we don’t hear about things until after they affect us.

    36. mooocow*

      I’m a data scientist working in e-commerce in Germany

      Pros:
      * excellent salary and benefits
      * 35 hour work-week (I have a part time contract) with super flexible hours (I can take entire days off and manage my own time as I see fit, as long as I don’t disrupt the team)
      * My tendency to Have Opinions is seen as ‘taking initiative’ rather than ‘being a pain in the ass’
      * Lots of autonomy and opportunity for working on my own projects
      * Extremely good atmosphere and wonderful co-workers
      * short commute, mostly through public parks

      Cons
      * There’s a certain level of creative chaos in the whole company that sometimes gets on my nerves
      * My boss’s communication style can be annoying at times (though he’s great in many ways)
      * A certain (too high!) proportion of my job is boring stuff I’m overqualified for (though there’s space for prioritizing and cherry-picking tasks according to my preferences, so it’s not too bad)

    37. LAI*

      I’m a higher education administrator.

      Pros:
      – I’m exempt so flexibility in hours, including the ability to work from home occasionally, excellent work-life balance and good benefits.
      – I get to work with college students and 99% of them are awesome.
      – Great co-workers and a fun, relaxed, collegial environment.
      – Lots of independence and the ability to self-direct my work with little oversight.
      – Getting to work for a cause (education) that I believe makes a positive difference in most people’s lives.

      Cons:
      – Dealing with endless bureaucracy. Seriously, I have to “submit a ticket” to do almost anything, and then it will take 3 days.
      – Limited opportunities for professional advancement. You pretty much have to look for a new job if you want more money or a better title.
      – Shared offices! Fortunately, I’ve managed to avoid these for most of my career but many co-workers have them. I always ask about this before accepting a job and it is a factor in my decision making process.

    38. ChrysantheMumsTheWord*

      Pros:
      – I work for a non-profit that has a mission I believe in and a CEO that is mission-driven and acts with integrity.
      – My job is 10-minutes from my home, which allows for a great work-life balance.
      – Co-workers are friendly & helpful
      – My stress level is zilch. I’m good at what I do and feel comfortable with the work that is given to me.
      – My skills and abilities are recognized by my superior and other high level managers and directors.
      Cons:
      – My job is much less challenging than my prior job and provides less learning opportunities. I like to get pushed out of my comfort zone at work and definitely miss that.
      – The pace of my job is unpredictable and I can have 3 weeks where I’m struggling to find work, only to come in to 3 days of absolute mayhem.
      – My coworkers are friendly, but I wouldn’t say they are friends. It can be lonely sometimes.

    39. periwinkle*

      Human resource development for a mega-major corporation…

      Pros:
      * Pay is solid, health benefits are good, educational benefits are astonishingly generous.
      * I work with some incredibly smart and dedicated people including (at least at my level) excellent managers
      * I get to work with people from across the company in a variety of roles – it’s a great way to learn the big picture stuff
      * My role allows for a lot of autonomy and variety, especially since I tend to get the non-standard projects which require me to be a matrixed team all by myself – I love this

      Cons
      * It’s a bureaucratic, risk-avoiding, huge corp with a middle management culture of “change is bad, doing what we’ve always done is safe”
      * Because of the company size, it’s hard to find information unless you’ve built up a good network. I had to de-introvert myself to create that network, ugh.
      * Process, process, process, so many of the damn things getting in the way
      * “We need training. Here’s a 50-slide PowerPoint deck. Each slide is crammed with a brain dump of words, illegible screenshots of forms which we insist stay even though they provide no information, a bunch of watermarked stock photos we found on Google Images, some outdated links to non-existent files, and a bunch of awful Microsoft clip art. Go make this into a course, our senior VP expects it to be available online by Tuesday.”
      * Parking sucks at my campus. When I’m lucky and snag a spot at the lot closest to the gate, it’s a mere 1/2 mile walk from there to my desk across asphalt and concrete. There are opportunities to be run over by a forklift or truck on that walk, including inside the building.

      There are days when I don’t love my job or employer. Most of the time, though, it’s a good place to be.

    40. College composition teacher*

      PROS:
      * I’m on a very small faculty, so I have a lot of control over designing my own courses.
      * Flexible academic schedule! Also some three-day weekends for federal holidays (MLKJ day) and a few student events.
      * Community college means less (no?) emphasis on “publish or perish” – I can relax about my output.
      * I really do love working with students, seeing them improve over the course of the semester and challenging them to think in new and creative ways.
      * Largely an intellectual job. I get paid to write, read, and talk about what I’m writing and reading. :)

      CONS
      * Community colleges don’t pay very well and this one probably pays less than most community colleges generally.
      * B/c of the unique features of my college, little room for professional advancement.
      * B/c it’s a small college, I don’t have any real colleagues in my department. I essentially work alone.
      * My boss and I get along . . . okay. Sometimes things go smoothly; sometimes, less so. My trust in him has been weakened over the past two years.

    41. SparklingStars*

      I’m a public librarian (cataloger).

      Pros:
      -Wonderful co-workers and supervisor ; simply the best group I’ve ever worked with.
      -Excellent vacation and sick leave – my more highly paid friends are all jealous of how much time I can take off. And I basically have no restrictions on when I can take my vacations.
      -Flexible(ish) work hours (only because I don”t work with the public).
      -Low pressure work environment ; very few hard deadlines that must be met by a specific day or time.
      -I never have to work more than 40 hours a week, and I only work on weekends if I volunteer for a special event (maybe 2 or 3 times a year).
      -Short commute (15-20 minutes each way).

      Cons:
      -Low pay (for a job that requires a master’s degree).
      -Sitting in front of a computer 8 hours a day can be tough at times.
      -Not a lot of variety in my day-to-day work (which is also kind of a pro, as I really thrive doing this sort of work ; I just get bored every once in a while and would like to learn something new at work.
      -Not many opportunities for advancement or moving into another position – I sometimes worry that I’ll be stuck as a cataloger forever.

    42. a nony mouse*

      Am children’s librarian.

      PROS:
      – part time work (20+ hours/week) and I get benefits (health, dental, pension)
      – high enough salary that I can afford to work 3 days a week
      – I only work one early morning a week, which is great because I am a night owl
      – not-exempt so my hours are very regular and no crazy long hours
      – I get to read interesting children’s books and explore YA lit for work
      – things I’ve done for work: teach myself to play the ukulele, sharpen my origami skills, learn about simple electrical circuits…
      – man, kids are adorable and way more interesting to work with than adults
      – reference work is so satisfying: helping someone find a book they really need, or teach them to download ebooks, or help a student assemble all the resources necessary for their homework/essay — it’s super cool.

      CONS
      – I work every Sunday and half my Saturdays
      – problem patrons… the public library is an open door institution, and librarians deal with an amazing variety of anti-social behavior
      – working with kids is great until it’s flu season and I get sick EVERY SINGLE YEAR

    43. Dr. KMnO4*

      Visiting Assistant Professor in STEM at a small liberal-arts college
      Pros:
      -A lot of autonomy – while the department decides as a group what topics we will teach I get to choose how I will teach said topics
      -Low pressure research – I have a couple of undergraduate research students, we are doing small projects, we may go to a conference but probably not publish anything, but my job does not depend on external funding or publications
      -My own office – I have a fairly sizeable office that I don’t share with anyone and that I can decorate pretty much any way I want
      -Not dealing with parents – I’m in my second year of doing this and I have never been contacted by a parent, and even if I was I would not have to talk to them about grades
      -My students – I love working with undergraduate students. I love helping them learn, I love helping them figure out what they want to do, I love helping them grow and mature
      -Holidays – I don’t have to worry about whether or not I’ll be able to get time off at Thanksgiving/Christmas/etc. And my summers are largely open.
      -Housing – This, I think, is a quirk of my institution but I live on campus. The rent is low, the utilities are low, I have free wifi, there are free laundry facilities in my basement, and it is a 5 minute walk from my apartment to my office.

      Cons
      -Sick days – They aren’t really a thing. If I’m very ill I can have a colleague teach my class, or cancel if I need to, but I work through colds and the like. I would have to be nearly dying to take off more time than a day or two.
      -Hours – This is part of my discipline, but I teach 210 minutes of lecture plus 180 minutes of lab a week for each section. Last semester I taught the night lab (7 to 10 pm! On a day that I also taught 8-11 am!). I also have high enrollments (88 students over 3 sections last semester, 56 students over 2 sections this semester). This leads to a LOT of grading.
      -Pay – I’m not on the tenure-track, so I’m paid by the class. I’m fortunate that I’ve had 4/5 and 5/5 contracts, and that my college gives me benefits, but the pay isn’t great and raises are not in our future any time soon.
      -Job security – the “Visiting” part of my title means that I’m on a year-to-year contract. Last February I was told that I would be offered a contract for this academic year but said contract did not get to me until June. I may or may not be at this institution next year, depending on how funding works out. I’m applying for jobs, but the academic market is not great even in STEM. Also my job security partly depends on my student evaluations. Thankfully they have been great overall, but I had a few disgruntled students last year. Probably the ones I reported for academic misconduct.
      -Academic politics – Professors can be petty, passive-agressive, agressive-agressive, territorial, cliquish, and more concerned about the appearance of fairness than actual fairness. There’s a bit of a clash between liberal arts faculty and STEM faculty at my institution right now. Also, everyone seems to use “Reply All”, especially in situations that do not seem to warrant it.

      Overall, I love my job. I love teaching at a small college. I love working with my students. It’s a ton of fun. It will be a lot more fun when I have some job security.

    44. Former Retail Manager*

      Revenue Agent (auditor) with IRS – audits small businesses (assets under $10 million) & high income individuals

      PROS:
      — Flexible schedule – Can come in between 6:00am and 9:30 as long as you work 8 hours
      — Work your own case load “independently” —- More to come on those quotes in the cons
      — Great pay and benefits
      — Fanstastic co-workers & manager (I’m lucky in this regard….this isn’t consistent from office to office)
      — Relative job security as long as you meet expectations
      — Telework up to 4 days per week, if you so desire

      CONS:
      — They say you’re “independent” but management involvement continues to increase with seemingly incessant reviews, case discussions, and manager approval required
      — Agency operates using antiquated systems that don’t communicate with each other and lengthy procedures to accomplish tasks that are considered simple and straightforward
      — Subject to the whims of Congress with regard to budget – We have lost tons of people but cannot replace them due to a lack of budget – Workload remains the same though
      — The expectations management expects you to meet, in terms of quality, are not always realistic due to the various quantitative measures that are also imposed; You can only have quality and quantity up to a certain point. After that point, you have to choose one or the other

    45. designbot*

      Pros: supportive leadership, great opportunity for growth with the company long-term, and good people generally. Lots of say in the work I do/authorship.

      Cons: not being part of the core business of the firm, so policies and leadership isn’t structured in a way that particularly makes sense for my team (but totally makes sense for 80% of the company). I have a lot of bosses, and learning to navigate that can be difficult. Also I think it’s time for a promotion as I’m bumping against the limits of my position, and that can be frustrating at times. Also also, we don’t know how to say ‘no’ or even, ‘yes, but not on that timeline’ to clients, so demands can be a little much at times.

    46. Middle School Teacher*

      Good question! I thought about this on and offensive for a while. (Note I am not in the US.)

      Pros:
      – autonomy in my classroom (our admin doesn’t micro-manage)
      – I work in a place with a philosophy that matches my own
      – kids are well-behaved and respectful (for the most part; we are talking about lots of teenagers in one place after all)
      – close to my house, maybe a 20 min drive most days
      – really great bosses, and I love most of my coworkers
      – tight staff, we hang out together outside of school
      – I can pursue my own goals (not admin, but other skills)
      – pay is on par with the big boards
      – I get cool opportunities, like international travel with students
      Cons:
      – a parent-run board means we are at the whim of their projects and desires
      – parents in general (the high-maintenance ones are extreme and can and will make teachers’ lives miserable)
      – sharing a building with an elementary school because their needs are different from ours and we are squeezed for space
      – benefits not as good as the big boards
      – hours can be crazy at certain times (report cards, interviews)

    47. Fortitude Jones*

      Pros:
      – The job is a 15 minute walk from my apartment
      – I like the people
      – I’ve relearned how to use some design programs I haven’t used in years
      – It requires using my degree

      Cons:
      – I have nothing to do most days, and my boss is being very cagey as to when I’ll be getting my next assignment. Therefore, I’m going to start applying for other jobs in this new field again to see if I can find something where I’m actually contributing something.

    48. DeeSocialWorker*

      I’m social worker and team leader
      Pros: meaningful job that helps people, there is always something new to learn or deal with, close to home, flexible hours and quite long PTO, continued education, working with clients (and institutions), possibility to travel for networking, great team and now great supervisor (the previous one wasn’t) and great and supportive organization culture, my creativity is supported
      Cons: sometimes I have to deal with child neglect, abuse, domestic violence etc, non-profit and social work salary could be higher, there is increasing amount of paper work, working with previous supervisor was stressing (and almost to a point of bossing from his side) and due to his bad management skills we still find things that are missing or not done even after four months, non profits in my country are now seen as parasites and enemy by increasing part of the public

    49. Akcipitrokulo*

      pros: interesting work, awesome colleagues and management that trusts us to do our jobs and really listens – also happyto invest in training and understands we probably won’t be here foreve and that’s ok. As a result, I’ve stayed in this job longer than any other and turnover in general is low!

      cons: 3.5 hours travel. wfh limited. can sometimes be boring. often frustrating when business does not agree to fix bugs.

    50. Research biologist*

      Love this thread – it is so fascinating to read about the day-to-day about other people’s jobs!

      1. Research biologist*

        Oops, posted too soon – I meant to contribute as well!

        I’m new faculty at a research institution, starting my own lab.

        Pros:
        – Intellectual freedom. I was hired to develop my own research program, which is exciting and intimidating (see below). But basically nobody tells me what to do and I get to pursue topics that I’m interested in.
        – Great colleagues – my department is very collegial and collaborative, and the atmosphere is so much nicer than many academic environments.
        – Excellent organization – it’s a prestigious place for my field with nice facilities and a lovely location.
        – Phenomenal support staff. Our admins are incredible, and make it as easy as possible to submit grant proposals, etc.
        – Lots of opportunities – I don’t want to get too specific, but I’ve already had one incredible, once-in-a-lifetime experience here.
        – Tenure-track position in an era where they’re about as easy to come by as unicorn pearls. Fairly well-paid and good benefits, too.

        Cons:
        – Soft money in a miserable funding environment. There’s a lot of internal support, which is great, but also constant reminders that a core part of my job is to bring in grant money.
        – Stress. This is mostly coming from me, but basically, I got this tremendous opportunity and the organization is investing a lot in me. If I can’t make a go of it, it’s all on me, and I worry constantly that I won’t succeed. It is a field where you are constantly getting rejections, often with really rude comments (thanks, Reviewer #2), and it can be really hard to take.
        – Loneliness. My partner and I moved here a year ago and don’t have any local friends. It’s an area where there aren’t too many people our age, and those who are typically have small children and no bandwidth for new friendships.
        – The area is flat and mostly settled, so my preferred hobby of backpacking is a pain in the ass, and I hardly ever get to do it anymore.

        The pros far outweigh the cons, and I’m thrilled to have this opportunity, but structurally it’s a job where you can never really relax and feel like you’re doing an okay job for any length of time. Wish me luck!

    51. kmb*

      I thought I would add, because my job is kind of like yours!

      I work at a science centre, where I’m a public programmer (person who figures out what activities visitors will do, supported by our facilitation staff, when they are at the centre), and I work mostly on our evening event series for adults, so my job is basically coming up with weird stuff for adults to do. This year we’re changing it up a bit, though, and other people are working on this event, and I get to work on programs for families.

      PROS
      – I work on a team of super smart, super thoughtful people, and working there has been a lot like finding my tribe.
      – we get to push the boundaries with the content we do at these events, so there’s a lot of leeway to do really fun an interesting things, and encourage adults to play and be creative.
      – I really love the mission of my organization and the approach to being a science centre (inquiry based learning).
      – I have been sent to a conference, and now from that and former colleagues I have a network of people doing awesome things and a bunch of awesome science centres and other institutions
      – You have days in which things like 4 random dance parties in one day (we were having a dance party craze for a while), turning the 60′ slide into a waterslide in the park and going down it to see if it would be safe for visitors to do (no), running around with a gizmo one person can use to control another person’s arm (Human-Human Interface from Backyard Brains), are pretty reasonable things to have happen, so you have a lot of awesome memories.
      – they let me reduce my hours so I can do grad school, which was really really awesome of them and they did not have to do it.

      CONS
      – I also don’t get to go to the fun events I run, but since I’m not running all of them this year, I could actually go to some!
      – my science centre is great at being a science centre, but not always so great at being an organization, so sometimes it does stuff that is really frustrating, and it seems all the more aggravating that it is otherwise such a great place to work.
      – some of the dynamics of the upper management team seem to have ended up making it not fun at all for my favorite manager, who got promoted to VP and ended up not liking and left. I miss her so much, she was a huge role model for me and I felt like she kept our culture alive. I am so glad she didn’t return to her home country and she’s still in our city.
      – My job is kind of actually making life difficult for coworkers in other teams (and the public programmers make life difficult for each other, but we tend to be pretty understanding about that) – I need to buy stuff on tight turnarounds, the things I make up run for one evening so there’s no time to train staff on it and they just have to run with it, it’s messy and weird and I often can’t confirm all of the exact details too far in advance because I’m working with a lot of externals, so even when I’m doing my job as well as I can, I’m kind of always making things more difficult for staff to make them more awesome for visitors. This leads to some kind of weird office tension sometimes.

  7. Susan K*

    The other day, I was looking up someone in the company directory and, due to alphabetical proximity, I noticed a familiar name: my ex-grandboss from my previous job. It turns out that he’s the counterpart to my grandboss at another branch in my company. I checked LinkedIn and he’s been there since October. Would it be weird for me to send him an e-mail to say hi? I didn’t work that closely with him, but I think I was on pretty good terms with him. He once gave me a promotion and substantial raise that I didn’t even ask for. I have no idea if he knows that I work for the same company (we are connected on LinkedIn, but he has lots of connections at many different companies). I don’t interact much with the other branches, but there’s a chance I’ll run into him at some point. I’m genuinely glad to see him working for my company because he’s a good manager.

    1. selina kyle*

      It seems fine to say hi and that you’re glad to be working with/around him again, I think that anyone reasonable would be flattered/happy to hear that.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      If you have an ounce of doubt that he might not remember you or might lose the context for a second, you can briefly remind him how he knows you. “I’m Jane, I used to work for Bob Roberts at Teapots Are Us when you were [job title] there.” It’s so nice when people give little reminders, I wish more people would do that.

    4. mooocow*

      Definitely send an e-mail! If he gave you an unasked-for raise, he probably thinks you’re awesome and will be happy to hear that you work for the same company!

  8. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    Two related questions:

    1. I’m in library school. I don’t want to work in a library, but rather a librarian-y/information-y type role in another type of organization. But I also want to work abroad. I’ve found several sites with international library positions, but I’m having a harder time knowing where to look for international informationy jobs. Anyone have any suggestions on where to look for those, or should I just focus on finding a library job? Living abroad is more important than not working in a library.

    One thought I’ve had was to look at large international companies (like Google, not that I’m particularly invested in working there but it came to mind), but while my skills are good, for most jobs they’re probably not unique enough to hire me over a local who won’t need the hassle of a work visa.

    2. If the answer to my first question is “Aim for libraries” (and I’m assuming it is, just hoping I’m wrong), would a two-week library placement be worth putting on my resume? I think I’ve mentioned before that I’ve been really struggling to find library experience while in school. It seems way too short to help me find a job. (Also I’m 80% sure I couldn’t take it without violating the terms of my visa, but that’s a separate issue. *sigh*)

    1. Angela B.*

      Archivist/records manager here. 1. You could try checking the websites of big international agencies–I know when I was applying I looked at archivist jobs with the UN, UNESCO, the World Bank, places like that. International corporations would also probably have postings for knowledge management stuff, although corporate is obviously not everyone’s cup of tea. You can also try international branches of universities, e.g., I feel like they’re always hiring at the American International University in Cairo. For archives there’s a great blog called archivesgig that will list international jobs along with all the domestic stuff, there may be a library equivalent! Ask around at your program, especially the people currently job searching. It might also be worth it for you to check out archivesgig just because some of the stuff they post is more on the knowledge management end,.
      2. At least until you have more job experience, you might as well list your two week placement–it’s not ideal but it’s better than nothing. I had a 6 week grad school internship on my resume until I got my current job, now it can cycle out because I’ve done enough other things. And if you really want to be more in the informationy side, there might be other things you’ve done that you can sort of massage into fitting that type of description.

    2. Sabrina Spellman*

      I would say that you should put any library experience on your resume. I went to library school, but never managed to find the time to get an internship or work experience while I was still enrolled. Now I work in higher education administration because no libraries would even interview me.

    3. misspiggy*

      If you want to work in developing countries, try Reliefweb and consider contacting Peace Corps, VSO and UN Volunteering. Volunteer placements of this type are good as a starting role, and are professionally respected and paid.

      1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

        Hm, interesting. A lot of the countries I’m interested in would be classified as developing. I’m a little confused by your saying that the volunteer placements are paid, though. Like I’d be a volunteer but still get a salary?

    4. Borgette*

      If you like data, there’s a niche of librarians who organize, store and query datasets for companies like Google. It’s a fairly rare breed, and they do some really neat work. Check out digital/data librarian work.

    6. Kath*

      Have you tried looking at data management for multi-national companies? You’d be surprised how much of a problem data management is for someone like BHP, and they do hire people specifically to address those issues. Once hired by someone like BHP you have a better change of transferring between operations!

    7. MarianCSRA*

      As for living abroad, military bases also have libraries (and probably other library-ish positions for which they hire civilians).

    8. blondie*

      What roles does one have or what kind of tasks does one perform as a librarian? What’s a typical day like?

      1. Corrupted by Coffee*

        That’s going to vary significantly, depending on the type of library, and even what type of librarian you are. For instance, I’m a reference librarian in the biggest public library system in the US, and I work mainly with the public answering information questions. Recent examples: someone trying to source when and where Muhammad Ali said a certain quote, kid looking for books on service animals, a woman asking how to apply for citizenship, a worker asking how to apply for a food handlers permit, how to find court records. I also answer a lot of tech questions: How do I do x in word/excel? How do I attach this to an email? How do I make a resume? I can’t get into my email. Etc. Round it out with social services and readers advisor questions: where can i find the nearest shelter, free tax prep, i’m looking for something good to read, I need historical fiction for a book report, I want a funny book on CD for my road trip.

        I also spend time on assorted other projects: digital readers advisory, book display planning and execution, computer class planning and setup, etc.

        Other librarians I work with do very different things. For instance, our teen and children’s librarians routinely give presentations at schools and community events, hold programs and connect with the community. They do much less reference. We also have digital and cataloging librarians who do no desk work at all. They work on our website, catralog and selection & ordering materials.

        In other places, librarians will be doing other things. For instance, law librarians will probably be looking up case law for attorneys, while medical librarians will concentrate mainly on medical issues. The national weather service employs librarians for their research, as does the art museum, the museum of flight, and the FBI and CIA. And that’s not even getting into academic or corporate libraries.

      2. schnauzerfan*

        I’d imagine my day couldn’t be much different than Corr.by.Coffee’s below. I’m an academic librarian at a small library. We’ve got one other librarian on staff, the director, and 7 other ft staff and 5-10 student workers. I’m the collections person. I decide (with varying levels of feedback) what we’ll subscribe to, what books we’ll buy. I spent a good part of last year setting up our new ILS. Spent 25% of my time doing webinars and conference calls planning for the new system. Spent another 50% of my time training/helping the rest of the library staff and our users prepare for the new system. But what I love is the archives part of the job. I assign scanning projects to our students, assign metadata to the scanned items… Get to dig through all sorts of cool old stuff.

  9. Jesca*

    I know sometimes people have been skeptical of whether or not a more unbelievable letter is actually real. I remember a few comments like this in regards to the pooping spy.
    Well something similar just happened where I currently work. I only know about it as I happened upon the “scene” minutes after it happened.

    So I have this very childish coworker (childish is the only word I can come up with to describe her) who recently RAN into the bathroom after someone pooped and started yelling that no one should be pooping in the bathroom and how disgusting that is and how the smell is just awful. She thought the woman she was exclaiming this to was the only person in there. Nope. Another coworker was in there doing her poop business at the same time!
    I found the other two women laughing (the poop patroller and the woman she was addressing her rant to) about it a few minutes later who then voluntarily told me the story. I did not laugh. “I said oh wow that’s really awful and how embarrassing for you”. That seemed to sober them up very quickly. And for once? There was no gossip about it that I had to hear about later.

    So haha yes! People are this bored/bananas/childish! I could not believe I had to witness something like that. And AAM scripts did work for me! I also know this woman has been put on a PIP for being disturbing to others and acting bizarrely – behavior she is now reverting slowly back to.
    I mean it was pretty mean, but then the other stories of this woman, what she has done, and what she is on the PIP for are so far more bizarre and worse …

    Also, she once developed some bizarre drama around me between me and her that I didn’t even realize was going on over something that wasn’t even real! I didn’t even know about it until her reprimand. So, that kind of gives some weird optics as well.

    Should I let management know of this issue, or just let my admonishment stand and let it go? What would you do?

      1. designbot*

        Mostly agree, though with the caveat that I’d respond honestly if I was asked whether I’d seen any more bizarre behavior from her, or someone asked ‘hey, what was up with that scene last week in the bathroom?’

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      I’d mention whatever I’d witnessed to mgmt. That’s just bizarre, and is really unprofessional. And yeah, truth is stranger than fiction.

      1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        My reasoning: this individual has a history of out there behavior, right? They’ve lost the right to have someone ignore it.

        1. Jesca*

          I know. She is bizarre AND mean! Picture this someone who speaks all the time in a way that you would to a five year old. Then combine that with the emotional and social mentality of a middle school cheer leader. AND then add in extremely almost obsessive type of behaviors regarding other employees that she decides to latch on to. And it seems management checks her, she then stops for a while, and then flies right back into the bananas stuff with no real understanding that she is getting disciplined for being disruptive. It is everyone else’s fault.

        2. Starley*

          I’m with you on that. I think it was handled beautifully in the moment and normally that would be sufficient , but the past issues with poop patroller’s issues manufacturing drama with Jesca gives me pause. I would give my manager a heads up in case the water closet warden starts making things up again. It’s better to get out ahead of that behavior than be on the defensive later, IMO.

    3. Don't Blame Me*

      I agree with fposte. I think you handled it well in the moment and it doesn’t need to be escalated unless she repeatedly harasses people.

    4. Seal*

      I would be tempted to send an email to my manager, with a copy to the poop patroller, asking for clarification about whether or not it’s OK to poop in the bathroom because there seems to be some confusion about whether or not that’s allowed. Because everyone poops. If you can’t do it in the bathroom, where else are you supposed to go?

    5. Landshark*

      I wouldn’t bring it to management unless they asked. If you were one of the poopers, it’d make sense, but all of this coming from a secondhand conversation seems a bit tenuous. I’m glad the AAM script worked though; she sounds nightmarish.

    7. INTP*

      I think you handled it adequately in the moment and there’s no need to escalate it. You just don’t want to be the employee that tattles because someone was rude about pooping. If you are asked about her behavior in general, though, like managers will sometimes do to check up on an employee whose behavior has been a problem in the past, feel free to mention this incident as an example.

      1. Jesca*

        This is the way I was framing it in my mind as well. Like I may be more inclined to say something is she started running around telling everyone what she did and how funny she thought it was. She is big on making scenes to try to “innocently” publicly humiliate people.

      2. Turtlewings*

        Agreed — keep it in mind if you’re asked about how she’s been behaving, since it sounds like especially relevant info in her case, but I fear that bringing it up might (rightly or wrongly) make you look a little, ah, overzealous.

        Btw, much love for the “Wow, how embarrassing for you” line.

    8. Little Twelvetoes*

      The poop patroller and the pooper were laughing about it together? Or did I read that wrong and it was just another coworker who thought poop patrolling was OK? Either way, it seems to me like there is cause to be worried that people are normalizing the childish coworkers behavior. We had a weird coworker for a looooong time. And even though everyone recognized some of her behavior as outrageous, and she was reprimanded by her supervisor and manager, she would pull something weird again later. She has now retired and everything is so much better. I don’t think they realized the extent the impact of her toxic behavior. Sometimes, we don’t realize until it is gone…

      1. Jesca*

        Yes sorry. i was trying to come to some way of describing it. So one woman was already in the bathroom like washing her hands or some suchness. The one who was pooping was still in the stall. When the poop patroler ran in, she was ranting to the coworker washing her hands without realizing the pooper was still in the bathroom in the stall. The hand washing woman and the poop patroler were washing their hands. The woman who was the pooper kept silent. She is very quiet and shy.

        And ABSOLUTELY there are a few people here who have normalized her behavior. A few of those actually landed on a PIP themselves for disruptive behavior. It is a huge issue actually and something that is brought up to management quite frequently. Everyone outside of this odd group has expressed wishes that they be separated AND moved to different floors. It is not uncommon for it to get so bad that people snap out on them very loudly and very publicly. Because, if you ask them to stop politely, they become rude and even more disruptive. Unfortunately, it is only then that management does something.

        1. ContentWrangler*

          Okay so if I’m reading this correctly and this patroller and another woman were standing around laughing at another coworker for having a bodily function, then I think you could bring it up to management, especially if this person has had boundary crossing issues before. She seems to take enjoyment in embarrassing others, which is cruel.

    9. Anon on this*

      I would never dream of bringing it up to anyone, but the bathrooms at my work are right next to my radio studio, where i spend six hours daily. It is horrible when someone poops. Air freshener makes it worse(and none of the men use it anyway), shutting the studio door doesn’t help, and the shit smell lingers for at least 15 minutes. Again, I’d never say anything, but I’ve definitely had the urge to yell “Quit shitting in station!”

  10. Introvert? Extrovert? What am I?*

    How did you know if you’re more suited to a job around a bunch of people or if you’re more suited to an isolated job? I was very isolated in my last job as my work rarely crossed with anyone else in person. I could go most of the day without seeing anyone. And that drove me crazy.

    But now I’m in a job where I’m definitely interacting more with people, plus am surrounded by constant chatter for being in an open floor setting. While I enjoy the engagement, I come home exhausted and not wanting to talk to anyone. I find myself missing those quieter moments.

    So how do I figure out the kind of environment that works for me? I like working with people, I loved working retail, but those were for short hours. I think the full time engagement is too much for me, but I don’t want pure isolation I don’t think. What the happy medium?

    1. A Nonny Mouse*

      You’re an ambivert, or just in the middle of the introvert/extrovert spectrum. Don’t go for an open office floor plan; don’t go for isolation.

    2. Goya de la Mancha*

      I’m an introvert, and as much as I would enjoy a solitary job or working from home, I KNOW that I would just end up a recluse. Being in my small office forces me to interact with others and then I can say without guilt at the end of the day that I’m done “peopleing”.

    3. K.*

      I highly recommend the book Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking, by Susan Cain. Even if you are an extrovert, it really helps people understand introversion – and that there are different levels of introversion, and that being an introvert doesn’t mean you hate people or that you can’t function around them. There is a section on introversion and work that includes questions for introverts and extroverts to ask themselves as they’re considering job opportunities.

      1. Nancy*

        I’d also read The Introvert Advantage: How Quiet People Can Thrive in an Extrovert World, by Marti Olsen Laney Psy.D. She also offers advice to extroverts on how to work with and manage introverts.

    4. INTP*

      It sounds like your happy place might be somewhere in the middle – like work that involves interaction with others, but in an employer with a more private cubicle/office setup with less constant background noise? I find constant coworker chatter more exhausting than interaction with people for actual work reasons, though of course ymmv – you may also be happy doing independent work in a chatty open office.

      For me personally, I just always knew because I’ve been an obvious introvert since childhood. Most people are somewhere in between though, I think.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      When I work around a lot of people, I need more rest than if I worked with only a couple people. It seems to be a sliding scale. I enjoy the people but also crave the quiet time.

    6. Jillociraptor*

      Introversion and extraversion exist on a continuum, and aren’t fixed, fully closed categories. So, you can exist somewhere in between, and have different reactions to different kinds of interactions.

      Can you reflect a bit on your triggers in social interaction? You might find it helpful to start monitoring when you start to get that “get me out of here!” feeling. Is there a time limit for how long your energy lasts in a typical conversation? What are the conditions of the room or activity? From your comment, it sounds like lots of background noise is more draining, while personal interactions are more invigorating. Do you get more drained by highly structured or unstructured interactions? Personal or professional topics? With strangers, acquaintances, or closer friends? When you have to do a lot of talking, or when you have to do a lot of listening?
      With a little data like that, you can start testing some hypotheses and, hopefully, structuring your day in a way that feels more balanced.

    7. Overeducated*

      This may be really dependent on individual workspace layouts and teams. For instance, I moved to an open cubicle workspace last year, but it’s mostly very quiet because…it turns out my team is the only one that regularly talks to one another throughout the day about our work. I don’t think I could tolerate what is a fairly grim physical space if I were also isolated and didn’t have any interaction with others during the day, as many of my cubicle neighbors seem to be, so the team is key.

      It’s something I’m nervous about in probably moving to a new job soon but I couldn’t think of a good way to ask about it.

    8. Argh!*

      I like working with and around people during the day because I live alone. If I lived with other people, I’d want to deal less with people during the day. Curiously, I fall on the halfway point of the introvert/extravert spectrum.

      1. What am I?*

        This makes perfect sense to me. I have a roommate who is super chatty. If she’s not talking to me, then she’s on the phone with someone else. Or she’s watching TV very loudly. So even at home I don’t quite get the alone time recharge that I need. Luckily she’s planning on moving out in a few months and I don’t need to replace her so I’ll be able to get more recharge at home. Hopefully that will balance out some of the work overload.

    9. Totally Minnie*

      I agree with the people who are saying that you’re probably an ambivert. I’m one, too. I generally need more conversations than your stereotypical introvert and more alone time than your stereotypical extrovert. If you do a Google search for “ambivert,” you can find some good information and confirmation that you’re not alone in this.

      As for work solutions, I was in a job a few years ago with open seating, and I totally understand how exhausting it can be. One thing that really helped was taking walks on my lunch break. I would leave my phone and my iPod behind and just let my brain wander wherever it needed to. Give that a try and see if it can help you.

    10. Bagpuss*

      how long have you been in the new job? Is is possible that you are still adjusting?
      If not, then I’d agree to look for something in the middle – not open plan, but around others.

    11. Friendly introvert*

      One of the reasons I love being a librarian is that you interact with people, but the very nature of the job calls for the interactions to be as quiet and as efficient as possible. Co-workers are usually friendly people who like helping others, but they are also often attracted to the job because they prefer a quieter environment. There are always overly-chatty exceptions, and if you can’t stand crying children, a public library is not the place for you, but overall this hits the sweet spot for me of engagement/quiet/physical activity – I can always do a lap of the building looking for patrons to help or displays to refill when I’m feeling crowded in the back office. The circulation department has a lot more interactions, btw, it is more comparable to a retail environment. All of this is predicated on a fairly busy mid-sized library.

    12. sympathy*

      You mentioned intoroversion/extroversion, but there are also several other factors here.

      Do you enjoy talking to people, but hate being interrupted and having your flow disrupted? Is the background chatter low-level distracting you all day? Are you bothered by the lack of privacy in an open plan setting? Do you constantly catch sight of people moving around, and find that visually distracting?

      Here’s the top three tricks I can think of for you to try out: use headphones, put up do not disturb signs for part of your day, or go work in a quiet area for a break. People who have to work in open plan spaces have lots of tricks and coping strategies; try some out, and at least you’ll get a better idea of what’s bothering you about your new situation. Then you can work on it from a place of knowledge.

  11. CC*

    From the ‘cultural’ differences post yesterday, it appears that flex time is a very rare thing in the US? Is there a particular reason why it’s not more popular (apart from jobs where you need coverage of course)? It seems like most jobs can be done regardless of the hours kept?

    Also, for those who don’t already have flex, if it /was/ offered to you, what would your preferred hours be?

    1. Sled Dog Mama*

      I have a sneaking suspicion it has to do with the put in long hours to prove how hard you are working culture that exists many places in the US (not all thanks goodness, but enough).
      If you’re already there (and expected to be there all the time) what sense do flex hours make

      That said I do have a slightly flexible schedule, part of that is because a portion of my work must be done outside clinic hours and I’m expected to have a life so if I know I’m going to have to stay until 8pm to finish things up my supervisor has not problem with me coming in a bit later than normal.

    2. Goya de la Mancha*

      We have the ability to flex our overtime hours, but since we have customer facing duties, it’s so hard to make it work – or at least make those flexed hours meaningful for ourselves. Sure I could come in a half hour late one morning (assuming someone will be here to cover the office), but the half hour really doesn’t add anything to my day. It’s not enough time to sleep in, or get a few errands done, etc. Leaving early would be best, but afternoons tend to be our busiest time, so it’s hard to leave.

    3. Irene Adler*

      Not okay to let the inmates run the asylum, so to speak. Flex time gives the employees more control over their
      jobs than most managers are comfortable giving them.

      I rather like early hours, say 6 am to 3 pm.

    4. Jayne*

      In my area (academia), we have flex time without calling it by that title. For example, I got here at 6:30 a.m. to avoid other people driving on ice. I have a class at 2:30 and will leave after it is over. Yesterday, I worked twelve and a half hours on various projects. Sometimes I go home at 4 in order to get the chickens more water when it is freezing. So I don’t technically have flex time, since I don’t have a different schedule. However, I can flex my schedule. A nice side effect of no one caring what I do, as long as it gets done.

    5. MeM*

      Most salaried people I know have flex time to some degree, so I wouldn’t say that it is rare. In some cases, states have their own laws put in place to protect hourly personnel from being taken advantage of, to ensure that they are paid any overtime they are due. Often, these laws take flexibility away from the employees. When I first started working, salaried in Florida, I could take vacation in 1 hour increments. When I moved to California, I could only take vacation in full days. I thought it was my new company’s rule, but it turned out it was the state law (which has since changed).

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. Here in NY, flex time is not looked upon favorably in the eyes of the law. I guess there was too much shenanigans in the past. You might find very small places using flex time on an informal, quiet basis, but medium to larger companies seem to steer clear.

    6. AliceW*

      Everyone I know has flex time. I think it is fairly common in the U.S. for certain industries and certainly at executive levels. My friends mostly work in law and finance. Many companies are global so you often have to jump on a call later at night or very early in the morning. Many of these companies don’t track your hours and your comings and goings.

    7. Spider*

      When I lived in the DC Metro area, I had flex time and it seemed like every job ad I ever saw mentioned flex time, as well. (I assumed it was due to the unpredictability of the horrible traffic in the area.) I LOVED it and wish I had it officially now — we have it “unofficially” in that we can make up the minutes we’re late in the morning by carving time off our breaks/lunch or staying late if we ask our manager, and that’s what I end up doing most of the time since I’m always late (despite living a mile away!) because it’s really hard to find close parking.

      My preferred hours back in DC were 8:15 to 4:45, which is coincidentally(??) the hours I work now, although I’m supposed to work from 8:00-4:30.

    8. Ann Furthermore*

      I have super flexible hours with my job, but it’s give and take. Like, I can leave for an appointment mid-day if I need to, but there are times when I need to be online very early to work with people who are in India. The timezones are pretty much flipped….they are either 11.5 or 12.5 hours ahead of us, depending on Daylight Savings Time.

    9. Naptime Enthusiast*

      We have flex time at work and while most people don’t use the policy from day to day, we set our schedules around it. We have “core hours” that we are expected to be in the office, I think 9-3, and we plan our arrival and departure around that. I usually work 7:30-4:30 with an unpaid lunch, my manager is normally in around 8:30, and my cubemate comes in at almost 10.

      We can also flex time within the week, so I could work 10 hours Monday and take a long lunch on Thursday or leave early Friday so that we still put in 40 hours each week for salaried employees.

    10. Flexitarian*

      I have flex time where I work in Healthcare. Not salaried. We can arrive anywhere between 7 and 9 am and work our 8 hours and go. But, we also have “make-up time” for up to 8 hours. So if I don’t want want to use PTO to take a day off, I can just work until as late as 7 pm to make-up the hours. So, I take every Wednesday off! I love it. First job I ever had with this flexibility. Plus I get 22 PTO days a year and will get 27 as of next year.

  12. Amadeo*

    I am so relieved you guys. We had our ‘restructuring’ meeting at work this week, Tuesday in fact, and I do get to keep my job. There’s going to be some shuffling and I’ll end up with a new manager to report to when the dust has settled, so that’s always got a little trepidation to go with it, but nothing I can’t survive.

    There’s nothing like getting that announcement that a reduction in force is coming down the river and then having to wait 3 weeks to get notification of how exactly that’s going to shake out, am I right?

    1. DDJ*

      Yay for you! Happy to hear that.

      My department has gone through several restructures over the last couples years. I went from being an individual contributor to managing people for the first time. In addition to my regular job! So basically…do your entire job, and also manage people.

      Then, there was a big shuffle, a bunch of layoffs, and then we were told “There are going to be more cuts, we’ll make the final decision and let everyone know within a month.” And then they set an actual day that that it was all happening. And then we got a message 3 days before “layoff day”: “Please ensure you are not scheduling meetings and are available during x time to y time.”

      So after THAT, we went through another restructure, and the people I manage are all different and their jobs are all completely different from the people I was managing before. So I’m learning about a whole other facet of the business. AND still trying to do my job! Because apparently they give you management responsibilities just on top of everything else. Why not, right?

      That was my very long-winded way of saying I empathize. And again, yay for you! I hope the new manager is awesome.

    2. Emmie*

      I am happy to that you were able to keep your job! I was thinking about your question and other’s answers when I heard an entire IT department was laid off nearby, and now 140 IT people are now looking for work in my major city. It reminded me that it’s a good idea to search when you hear that announcement. I’m sure those three weeks were very stressful. Congratulations.

    3. Jesca*

      OMG yeah it sucks. Only here, it has been like 4 months! No lie! And every other business area has completed their restructuring except ours. I still have no idea where I will be moved or even what I will be doing. The upside is though the restructuring isn’t due to funding issues but more of a response to customer feedback. Things got messy, confusing, and slowed way down under the previous structure. So everyone has a job! Just don’t know what that job will be! I am so glad you can now sit in relief.

  13. Cancer Crush Anon*

    I’ve had a week AAM. This is extremely identifiable so I’m on anon. Last Friday afternoon I not only found out that my dad’s cancer has returned after 20+ years of remission, but the freaking Owner/CEO/President of my company told me that he had a crush on me. Those words were used.

    I cried all weekend, told my boss on Monday and swore her to secrecy (our HR department is terrible) and thankfully my boyfriend’s brother is an employment attorney so if I get fired for not reciprocating or retaliation I’m going to be okay. Thing is, earlier that day I was singing his praises to a stranger so literally no one will believe me if this gets out. He is married, kids, church going, charitable, kind (yuck) and no one would believe me. I barely believe it myself and it happened to me.

    I contacted a recruiter and she is specialized in my field and we had a phone call and a meeting next week. My questions are:

    – How do I survive being at work right now with these extremely major things hanging over my head. My motivation is in the toilet and I keep excusing myself to cry. I have a mortgage and a dog and cannot just quit.
    – Do I tell potential employers that a senior manager made a pass at me during interviews when I am asked why I am leaving? This is a huge company and looks fantastic on my resume. People are going to ask, especially since I have a great relationship with my boss and there’s no other reason I’d be looking.
    – The recruiter asked me my desired salary. I told her bare minimum with phenomenal benefits I’d accept XXk, she said “Oh, that’s probably on the low end, you could do a little higher” did I just shoot myself in the foot? She seems like a good recruiter but now I’m worried.
    – What about direct hire vs contract to hire? Recruiter mentioned this to me. I’d be paid by the recruiting firm if I’m contract to hire and then I could maybe be hired on full time by the company I’m working for. She said that happens often and that they could negotiate benefits into the contract pay. Is this normal? I’ve never worked with a recruiter before.

    Sorry if I’m all over the place. This has been a week.

    1. Grouchy Old Lady*

      1. So sorry you are going through all of this. I would try and keep things as professional with the owner and avoid and non-work related conversation. Just do your best to get through it. Hopefully you find a new job soon!
      2. nope-come up with another reason.
      3. No, she’s a recruiter not employer so she’s going to work with your needs. She also wants to get you the best salary so she gets the best commission.
      4. I think direct hire is they are using a recruiter to find ppl for them to interview. If they hire one the recruiter gets a cut. Versus contract to hire is your more of a temp working but if they like your work they may hire you.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        3. No, she’s a recruiter not employer so she’s going to work with your needs. She also wants to get you the best salary so she gets the best commission.
        This usually isn’t the case in my experience. If recruiters are competing with other recruiters, they’ll try to lowball the employee so they are the cheapest option to the company doing the hiring. A lower commission is better than no commission. This is especially true for entry level positions.

        1. Previous Agency Recruiter*

          You are correct that this how many bad recruiters operate. Good recruiters do want to get the employee something she will be happy with. Most recruiters offer the employer some sort of guarantee and it generally lasts anywhere from 3 to 6 months. That means if the employee leaves (likely if they took a lowball offer) the recruiter has to give the commission back!

          This recruiter does sound like a good recruiter. They understand that if you are happy working with them you will also likely refer your friends and colleagues to them. Good recruiters success is built on long-standing relationships, often placing the same people over and over again throughout their career. Don’t let cynics scare you off a great way to get a job, but do carefully vet any recruiters you work with as they do represent you to the employer and it’s worth remembering that.

          Contract to hire can be a great way to get some extra cash up front – but usually doesn’t come with benefits. If you can be covered on someone else’s benefits but are able to negotiate the rate higher than the cost of that – profit! Then when you convert, it’ll likely be at a lower salary than the hourly contractor rate was because of the cost of benefits, 401k etc. The benefit of this arrangement for the employer is that they essentially get a try before they buy opportunity with you, it’s very easy to end a contract and much harder to fire an employee, even a new one. So you should also charge a premium for taking on the risk. The benefit for the recruiter is that they usually charge an hourly fee on top of what they pay you for the hourly rate and will then get a reduced percentage at conversion. That fee covers both the cost to employee you (payroll taxes, etc) and their profit.

          Hope this is helpful! I get really annoyed when I see blanket statements like this. Recruiting is a low barrier to entry market, so there are a lot of bad ones out there, but it’s also a really phenomenal tool in your toolbox as a job seeker. It’s absolutely on you to do your due diligence to make sure you are working with a good reputable recruiter, just like you would do for any other service.

          1. Cancer Crush Anon*

            Yes, that makes perfect sense, thank you for this information.

            She was recommended to me by a friend from high school in my field, and she seemed pretty knowledgeable when I talked to her. She’s young, but she immediately pointed out a few things I could put in my portfolio to help me. She also asked where else I applied and told me she has contacts there that she will reach out to and make sure they look at me. I felt good about her, I hope I wasn’t off base there.

            Unfortunately I’m too old to be on my parents benefits, and my boyfriend and I aren’t yet married (nor does he get benefits through work).

      2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        ^^ What she said.

        Also, do your very best not to be alone with creepy guy, ever. Get your manager to help you here if you need to.

        1. Cancer Crush Anon*

          Thanks, she has already prevented that from happening once this week. Unfortunately the nature of my job I do have to be 1:1 with him occasionally. She told me she will not let that happen again, but as luck would have it….she’s out next week so I’m now panicking about that.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Is there anyone else who could legitimately be in the meeting with you?

            Make sure you meet in a room where you can leave the door open. If he closes it say “I would prefer the door be left open, thanks. It’s a bit stuffy in here.” If he won’t open it, open it yourself. If you feel unsafe, leave. You can say “I don’t think now is a good time to meet. Let’s do this later when Boss can join us.”

            I know he’s the CEO but you can firmly say “Please don’t speak that way/do that; it’s inappropriate,” etc. if anything happens.

            *HUG* I’d be your security if I were there. I could fake-take notes or something.

            1. K.*

              I would too. Actually, it’s kind of fun to imagine a phalanx of AAM commenters running security for each other where needed!

            2. Cancer Crush Anon*

              Ugh this is going to out me but the 1:1 time is in a sound proof room that NO ONE but me goes in. Or has a key to. It’s a recording studio so we can’t leave it open.

              Yes, my boyfriend’s employment lawyer brother told me to make sure I said “This made me uncomfortable. It was unwanted. Never speak of this again.”

              1. ContentWrangler*

                Maybe look up the laws in your state to see whether you need 1-party or 2-party consent to record conversations? Some states you only need one half of the conversation. And you can download discrete recording apps on your phone. Then you have proof if he does anything creepy in your 1:1. So sorry you are going through this!

              2. Nita*

                Call out sick for the day of the meeting, without telling anyone in advance of course? Have a “trainee” sit in on the meeting?

              3. Elizabeth West*

                That is good legal language and yes, you should do that. The longer you wait to shut it down, the tougher it will be.

                As people frequently say here, the awkward is on HIM, not you.

          2. Reba*

            Could you take some days off while she’s away? Call in sick? You certainly have ample reason to, aside from “avoiding office creep.”

            He was testing your boundaries, and your response is great — proceeding cautiously despite your distress. Talk to the lawyer ASAP, don’t wait for something bad to happen but proactively learn about likely outcomes and possibilities.

            I’m sorry about your dad and hope everything goes well for him.

            1. Cancer Crush Anon*

              Thanks, we have an awful vacation/sick time policy and I want to save all that I can for my dad if he has multiple surgeries or whatever. Taking unpaid leave is considered a disciplinary action and my boss’ boss is very black and white about that stuff. My coworker had the flu and went through his vacation time and my boss’ boss told me that according to the handbook, he’s supposed to write him up. I also can’t afford unpaid right now.

              Thank you, I spoke with him. He defends companies against women like me :) He told me what things they do to pick apart a woman’s argument so that I can be protected and how I can protect myself.

          3. Slartibartfast*

            Is it legal whete you are to have a tape recorder in your pocket? I might do that even if it isn’t

    2. SoooAnonymous*

      Honestly, I have no advice for you. I am going through a tangentially related situation and am curious if anyone has advice, so I’m just chiming in to comment so I can find this thread again later. I am so sorry that you’re going through all of this and hope that you take some time this weekend to take a second and gather yourself. Take a walk, take a hot bath. Watch a favorite movie and cuddle with a pet or your boyfriend. Remember to take care of you in the midst of all of this.

    3. LKW*

      Woof – that is a bad week.
      1. Cancer treatments have made leaps and bounds in 20 years – so before you freak out, give your dad’s oncology team some time to come up with a plan and some more information.

      I have to wonder if something else is going on – like dementia or a stroke. Seriously – who the hell sees all of these folks getting roasted over this exact behavior and decides to do this? I just wonder if he’s that clueless?

      1. Cancer Crush Anon*

        The worst part is he said it as a follow up to his statement on sexual harassment. He asked me if he ever made me uncomfortable and when I said no, he said good because blah blah blah blah blah I have a crush on you blah blah blah.

        But that’s seriously what everyone I have told has said “how stupid is he in this environment and after all that’s happened this year?!?!

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          What a creep. There’s only one reason to tell someone you have a crush on them. And it most certainly is not to check your own behavior.

          1. Cancer Crush Anon*

            It was selfish. Extremely selfish. He had 0 disregard for me and my feelings and what that statement would mean to me.

            1. Jesca*

              I agree. It was selfish of him. It was almost like he was using the sexual harassment scandals as a lead in the sexually harass you. No way a CEO should be hitting on an employee like that.

              If you find yourself alone, tell him flat out that it made you uncomfortable. If he continues, get up and leave. If you have the slightest inkling he will try to block your way out, then angle yourself to the door in a way where he cannot before telling him. If he doesn’t do anything other than apologize, then its a lost cause to try to move on with him as the CEO of a company you work for.

              Ugh this stuff sucks. It sucks so bad, and you have my deepest sympathies. Whatever you do, know that it is OK.

        3. The Ginger Ginger*

          WOOOOOW. How does he not notice that he ended his question about sexual harassment by sexually harassing you? Gross. I am so sorry this is all going down. Please yes, let him know that he made you extremely uncomfortable with that comment.

          What a total sleazeball. Hang tough, CCA. Do what you can outside of work to keep yourself taken care of so you can be there for your dad. Don’t let this jerkwagon get you down.

        4. Overeducated*

          WHAT.

          Is that really what he took out of all this sexual harassment awareness: “wouldn’t want to harass my employees or make them uncomfortable when I hit on them at work”?

          I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

          1. Lissa*

            He was probably trying to go for some kindof plausible deiability. I had an old boss who would constantly say stuff like “Hahahaha, one day I’m going to get sued for all the outraaaageous things I say!” and bring up sexual harassment claims, how he “gets away” with things other people would get in trouble for, people “know he doesn’t mean it” etc.

            i’m so sorry this happened and I really hope this is the end of it. :(

            1. Overeducated*

              Yeah, I was phrasing that sarcastically, the idea of using sexual harassment awareness as COVER for sexual harassment at work is just so awful.

            2. Troutwaxer*

              Or maybe he’s been worried that his emotions towards the OP are obvious to her, (after all, the feelings are obvious to him, right?) and he is trying to be professional despite his feelings and he is worried about whether he is successful in being professional despite his feelings. (I might have had the same conversation for the same reasons when I was MUCH younger. Now I put a higher value on keeping my mouth shut and would have arranged things so I was not at the same sexual harassment training presentation as my crush.)

              1. Triplestep*

                I think it’s more likely that he’s being manipulative. Opening with a statement crafted to sound like genuine concern, and slipping the “crush” part in the middle. I’m guessing in his mind, if she feels similarly, they can then start planning their clandestine affair. If she does not return his feelings, well then … he’s just considerately asked her if he made her uncomfortable, didn’t he? He’s thinking “How can anyone fault me for that?”

                If there was a handbook for workplace creeps, I think this technique would be in it.

                1. Troutwaxer*

                  I think your explanation is more likely too, but I had some bad experiences in my younger day where my (admittedly clumsy) discussions of sex/romance were misinterpreted, so I thought I’d throw it out there.

        5. Close Bracket*

          Oh man. I’m sorry for everything you are going through. I am picturing you responding with, “Well, I WASN’T uncomfortable!” What exactly did he think the outcome of that would be?

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Oof. I’m sorry about your bad week.

      1. Would it be possible to take any time off? PTO or short term leave or something? Even just a few days to help you process things.

      2. I would not. Come up with something vague like “looking for new challenges” or “because of some family health problems, I am looking for something [closer to home/better hours/etc]”

      3. No. It is definitely in a recruiter’s best interests to get you the highest salary possible.

      4. Contract to hire is very common. It gives the employer a chance to see if you’re a good fit without having to pay benefits and all that jazz.

      1. Cancer Crush Anon*

        I’m taking PTO for my dad’s surgery. We do not have a good pto/vacation policy here. If I leave any of the miniscual vacation policy I use will have to be paid back and I can’t afford that. I want to save it for my dad’s surgery and if God forbid I’m still here in a few months.

    5. Chriama*

      So it might not be legal but if you ever have to be alone with him I’d record it. I would also be really no-nonsense with him. He’s lost his right to anything except cold professionalism. If he wants to play clueless and “hurt” I would tell him “what you said to me, as someone with control over my job *and* as a married man, was wildly inappropriate. Lets keep things strictly professional from now on, please.”

      Other than that, I would use the awkwardness as a cocoon. He’s not entitled to you pretending that everything is ok. You’re allowed to be tense and uncomfortable around him. Keep treading water and get out of there as quickly as you can.

      1. A Nonny Mouse*

        First suggestion is TERRIBLE. Don’t do it.

        Talk to an employment lawyer now. Not once everything hits the fan, not when your work product suffers from stress, but now. He (assuming it’s the brother) will tell you what you need to do to document this, how to protect yourself, and what to look out for in terms of retaliation.

        1. Cancer Crush Anon*

          Yes, I spoke with him. We are in a One party state and he made it very clear to me what my rights are and what my next path of action is.

          What I can say is he made it very clear to me that I need to say to the owner “That made me feel uncomfortable. It was unwanted. Never speak of this again.” He wants me to approach owner but I don’t feel I can do that. I will if it’s brought up.

          1. Observer*

            Please listen to your lawyer and approach it. You really want to avoid a “next time”. And you want to make sure that if he starts pulling stuff that’s possibly more “deniable” so that he could claim that he “didn’t realize” you have it on the record that he DID in fact know because you told him in plain language.

          2. Totally Minnie*

            I think your lawyer friend has a good idea when it comes to being proactive, especially since your boss is going to be away next week. You wouldn’t have to be confrontational about it, but I think letting him know you’re uncomfortable with the situation is definitely warranted.

            Say something like: “I need to postpone our next meeting until Mary gets back. What you told me last week made me very uncomfortable. I do not want to discuss that topic with you any further, and I would prefer it if Mary were involved in all of our meetings going forward.”

            Ask your boyfriend or your lawyer friend to practice with you so you’ll be prepared to deliver this in a professional way.

            I’m so, so sorry that you’re in this position. I’m on your side, CCA, and I’m pulling for your dad and his medical team.

          3. Close Bracket*

            I also live in a one party state, and I sometimes need to covertly record interactions for work. I bought a voice recorder and a clip on mic at Best Buy. I have two ways of using it: 1. I wear a tank top under a loose fitting button down shirt or cardigan and something with roomy pockets on my bottom half. The mic clips to my bra strap, the wire goes under my tank top, and the recorder goes in my pocket. 2. If I am carrying my purse, the recorder goes in my purse, and I clip the mic to a seam just below the top opening. My purse closes with a zipper, and I leave the purse slightly unzipped.

            I recommend practicing some scripts. “Boss, I want to revisit our conversation the other day. I would prefer that you not tell me any more about having a crush on me. I think it would interfere with our professional relationship. Let’s agree not to talk about it anymore. Now, about the TPS reports…”

            I am so, so annoyed on your behalf. That was a power play on his part, and you in no way deserve that. Nobody should have to deal with that.

        2. Chriama*

          Why is it terrible? She doesn’t need to tell anyone she recorded it. But having it will likely make her feel safer.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Surviving at work.
      Will your immediate boss work with you on doing a buddy system, so you don’t get caught alone with this guy again?
      Long ago, at earlier jobs, I was able to finesse things so that my husband would pick me up or drop me off. Just the physical presence of the SO may help a tiny bit. Random appearances are even better. Cameo appearances of course and you will still get your point across.

      You have one thing going right here, and I hope I can encourage you not to underestimate this thing. You are seeking opinions of others. This is a very powerful tool when used wisely. People here will give you great advice. In real life, go one person at a time and ask yourself, “Do I respect this person’s opinion over all?” When the answer is YES, then this is a person whose opinion/suggestions will probably be helpful to you.

      1. Cancer Crush Anon*

        Yes, she will and has already this week. But she’s out next week and I don’t want her to tell her boss about it because I definitely do not trust him.

        My S.O. dropping by would be odd in my workplace.

        His brother, the lawyer, told me that the more people who hear my story the better. Obviously I just want to put my head down and GTFO, but if God forbid I lose my job, he told me this would be good.

        1. Observer*

          Yes. Also, document your head off. EVERYTHING and ANYTHING that is at all related. And keep telling people about it. Even if it makes you sound like a “bore” – that’s not great but it means that people are more likely to remember. Like “Oh gosh! Of course I remember! She wouldn’t shut up about it.”

    7. Bea*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this.

      I had to find a job to get away from a hellbeast boss that flipped on me. It was horrible.

      You will succeed in getting out of there.

      Focus on leaving because you’re looking for a change if scenery and a new opportunity. Do not get reeled into thinking they’ll be shocked you are leaving a recognized organization. Everyone leaves for their own reasons and I only ever got questioned very limited amounts about why I was looking.

    8. King Friday XIII*

      You gave your own best reason for leaving – PTO options are awful and you are keenly aware because of your dad’s diagnosis that you need a job with a better work-life balance. Nothing wrong with that. I’m glad you’ve got your BF and his brother in your court and I hope you find something wonderful and your dad gets good news soon.

  14. tired of sexism at work*

    I’m getting really tired of the sexism at my organization. We are for the most part women-led in upper management and majority women overall. But it seems that since there are so few men, they get special treatment. A man gets treated like he’s 10 times as good as he is and sought out for special projects and opportunities. Or, to put it another way, women need to be ten times as good as the men. The men notice that they’re treated like they’re geniuses and develop a swagger and (often) unwarranted self-confidence. Aargh!

    1. Also Tired of It*

      I’ve been noticing the same at my female led organization. Men are blindly trusted and women are grilled about every decision. I don’t think people realize that just because your CEO is a woman it doesn’t mean that sexism and harassment ends. We have had a culture of sexual harassment and abuse of women and I thought our new woman CEO would put a stop to it. Nope. It’s even gotten worse.
      I read news articles all the time about how great it is to have females in leadership, but nothing has changed from my perspective.

    2. Arielle*

      I went to a college that was 70% women and this exact dynamic played out all the time. Sometimes a majority-female environment can be worse for the women and more beneficial for the men than a 50/50 ratio.

    3. Kramerica Industries*

      I don’t know if I can deal with it anymore. The men get a constant “Oh, that’s just how Joe is” pass for being blunt or standing their ground, but I get spoken to when I don’t end emails with “Let me know what you think” because I’m not facilitating open dialogue.

      1. tired of sexism at work*

        I’ve definitely noticed this as well. I’m supposed to be super nice and conciliatory at all times.

    4. Lumen*

      I noticed this when I was teaching in early childhood. Multiple schools/centers I worked for were so desperate for men to work with young children that guys who were younger, less experienced, and less educated than female staff were given outsized pay, perks, and praise. It honestly made me sick to see how women who devoted their careers to educating young children would be pushed into a corner to spotlight some 20 year old dude for whom this was just a waystation job before “his art really took off” or something.

      1. Bobbin Ufgood*

        It’s exactly the same with nurses – I have routinely seen male nurses get promoted to a job that would require >5 and more like 8 years experience for a female nurse after 2 (TWO!) years! NOT KIDDING!

    5. Engineer Girl*

      You’re not crazy. Lots of studies show that women are just as biased as men in giving credit for work. The men get more credit for the same thing.

    6. blackcat*

      I’ve heard this phenomena referred to as the “glass escalator” for men in female dominated professions… then end up at the top of leadership structures pretty quickly.

    7. Lissa*

      Yup yup yup. I complained about this at my volunteer organization. It’s mostly women, and and if there’s a guy around, there’s a decent chance the women will laugh way too loud at all his jokes and seriously puff him up. It’s hard to explain this dynamic without sounding like I’m blaming the women for doing this, which I’m not really, and honestly in my case sometimes I don’t even blame the guys because they just think “Oh wow I am so funny, I get so much attention for the hilarious things I say” and it never occurs to them what’s going on.

      1. Lumen*

        I don’t think you’re ‘blaming women’. It’s just that… well.

        Internalized misogyny is a hell of a drug.

    8. strawberries and raspberries*

      A while ago our funder came for a site visit and to go over our quarterly numbers, and the (all-female) team conducting the visit made a comment at the end of their introduction like, “And we’re so delighted to see so many males working at this site, as you frequently don’t see that and it’s so essential to participant engagement.” Like on the one hand I get what they mean but on the other hand I’m like, “Oh, so women working are actively harming our population? Cool.”

    9. BusyBee*

      We have a very similar problem where I work! Our CMO and other senior staff are all women, and tons of the entry- to mid-level are women, but directors? All men. And when they hire those director positions they will literally say “Oh, there’s so many women around here, I’d like to hire a man.” It’s extremely dispiriting, though, because none of the mid-level women are given a chance to move up to those director positions and we all report to men. It’s such a weird dynamic.

    10. anon for this*

      Oh yeah, this is the same dynamic at my office and it’s really frustrating. One particular element that annoys me is that women seem to always end up with all of the less glamorous, more tedious and time-consuming work because the men can’t be bothered to learn how to do it properly, so the men just get to cherry-pick and do only the work they like. And they omplain about it.

  15. Kerrie-Anne*

    There was a report recently that schools in the UK are limiting time devoted to subjects such as art and music in favour of ‘core’ subjects such as English, maths or science.

    While I understand the pressure to do well in these areas (which will influence school rankings etc), it seems like a pity. I have a degree in a STEM subject and work in that field, and would never pursue a career in an artistic field, but I have very fond memories of art and music classes and I do believe they have a positive effect on cognitive function.

    Ideally it would be feasible for students with those kind of interests to pursue them as extra-curricular activities, but often there’s a financial barrier and that’s just not possible. There are some studies that show benefits of the artistic subjects but nothing definitive enough that schools would reallocate funding based on the evidence.

    3. Landshark*

      Agreed. I’m a core subject teacher myself (English, to be speficic), but not having creative outlets and an opportunity to explore these things in electives is just sad. It hurts students in the long run.

    4. Emily*

      As someone who works in a STEM field, I completely agree – I flourish most when I am able to pursue athletics, arts, orchestra, and other creative hobbies in addition to my “main” scientific work. Granted, I was a pretty well-rounded student (pretty good at/interested in English, math, science, art, and music), but I still think it’s good for all students to be exposed to these subjects.

      Unfortunately, when I was in high school (late 2000s, southeastern USA), arts funding was already being cut in a lot of schools.

    5. The Senior Wrangler*

      It. Is. So. Stupid.
      My mum works in a primary school and is experiencing it first hand. They do formal tests all the time with a far heavier emphasis on STEM subjects. I admit I’m a self-styled “creative type” but creative subjects have helped me no end in my adult life, they teach you to think in a different way to STEM subjects and definitely have skills that can be applied. They also help with mental health, coordination, autonomous thinking…. I could go on.

    6. Jillociraptor*

      I also find it really unfortunate that there isn’t more art and music taught as *part of* the “core subjects.” (And physical activity! Recess is not enough!) You can learn a lot of math from music. You can learn a lot of chemistry from art. And so on. Art and music are, when taught well, also a great point of entry for students to develop the kinds of analytical skills that help them with literature, history, and other social science and humanities subjects. There are unique methodologies and intellectual histories to all of these subjects, and those are important, but I think we’d serve our students a lot better in general if we focused on providing an education that drew connections among the different subjects, through multiple modes of engagement.

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      It’s particularly self-defeating because music and art have really fantastic benefits to growing brains. Music is both math and language, and it’s proven that facility with music makes the brain better at learning language. Art therapy is a huge benefit to children. Scientific inspiration can come out of art. It’s so frustrating to see those subjects getting cut, and it impacts everything. Children who aren’t exposed to them aren’t taught their value, and they grow into adults who don’t value or appreciate art and music. And The Arts can have major positive social and cultural impact, but not when they’re not appreciated or funded.

      1. Slartibartfast*

        My art classes really help me when I am picturing anatomy to take xrays and analyzing cells under the microscope. The artists eye comes in handy.

    8. Akcipitrokulo*

      It’s a real shame. Unfortunately banging on about back to basics or the 3Rs is good for votes.

  16. Alternative Person*

    So I took an exam for a professional qualification two months ago. I found out last night that my exam paper was not with the consignment sent from my exam centre, one week before the results are due. I am so mad right now. I studied my ass off for that test. It is hopefully a clerical snafu between the exam centre and the marking centre but just urgh.

    2. Zombeyonce*

      Give ’em hell if they try and tell you you’ll have to take it again. You may already be doing this but, if not, be sure to talk with someone up the chain about how this will be handled. Document what they say and be sure to get their name.

      1. Alternative Person*

        It’s still in the gathering info stage, but if they don’t find it, I’m pushing up the chain. Thanks for the advice

    3. ContentWrangler*

      At the very least, if you have to take the exam again, they should definitely waive any costs or fees for the exam.

      1. Alternative Person*

        They should. I hope I could negotiate a pass based on my mock grade because I don’t want to wait for the exam to come around again.

  17. Lunching*

    I have a coworker who takes a long time to ask her questions. She’s very methodical and wants to go over every step. Our functions are such that she comes to me to verify her analysis – say she’s in Teapot Management and I am in Teapot Compliance. That being said, the level of detail and slow pace are not necessary. I support several other Teapot Managers without this issue. I realize I can say, “Now’s not a good time, could we set a time to discuss later?” But that doesn’t help the fact that the conversation takes far longer than it needs to. Any advice on getting my coworker to communicate more concisely?

    1. fposte*

      “It sounds like you’re asking me to go through every step, and I can’t do that without letting my own work go. Can you email me?”

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      This is one of the reasons I try very hard to shunt requests to email or our ticketing system. Most often I have the opposite problem, people don’t give me enough information, but once I have the info I want to be able to refer back to it. But having too much detail in a ticket or email means you can skim it and look for the important parts.

      If that’s not feasible, can you ask her for a high-level summary, abstract, overview, whatever term you think will prod her to give less detail? Ask her to start with that and let you ask questions, and if she tries to give too much detail you can always interrupt and redirect, and don’t feel like you’re being rude (assuming your tone and manner are polite), because it’s also somewhat rude to take up a lot more of your time than is necessary.

    4. Irene Adler*

      “Please “bottom line” this for me. I am unable to follow your analysis without knowing up front the issue you are having. Thank you.”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      “Coworker, I need you to shorten the length of your questions. Instead of you giving me a bunch of information then a question, why not just ask me the question and I will ask you for the pieces of additional information I need.”

      If that seems too harsh, just ask her if she can get to the punchline quicker. “Is there some way you can shorten this explanation/question?”

    6. Snark*

      I have dealt with this. I’d first address it in the moment with some specificity: “This is more background than I need to verify your analysis. When you come to me for verification, let’s get right to your question, and if I need more context I’ll let you know.”

      And then every time thereafter: “Jane, I can validate your analysis without the background, let’s just skip to that.” “Jane, I need to ask you to skip to the question.” “Jane, I appreciate all the context, but I don’t need it to answer your question”

    7. Ann Furthermore*

      I worked with someone like this once. Really, really smart, but super methodical and structured. With her it wasn’t taking a long time to ask questions, but when we would discuss something complex, she would have to talk through it a few times and take all these copious notes. We were accountants, who are a pretty methodical bunch anyway, but she was especially so. I can crank through some things pretty quickly, which she found very impressive.

      Our boss was even speedier — she could plow through stuff in no time at all. Plus she talked pretty fast too and was a great multitasker. We would work late one night every month to close the books. One time it was 8:30 or 9:00 in the evening and she was reviewing some numbers before the final close, and my co-worker and I were in her cube talking to her about something. She was talking to us, keying numbers into a spreadsheet with one hand, and using her mouse with the other. My co-worker was completely blown away — but it was pretty impressive.

    8. Argh!*

      This is a personality thing that probably can’t be changed. My techniques are 1) pretend to listen and then when they finally finish, summarize the important point with something like “So you’re asking me if we should paint the teapots blue as a trial, right? Okay, sounds good.”

      Or… 2) “I only have a minute. Can you send me an email?”

      Or… 3) (which I never do but I always want to) “Get to the point, already!”

      Even though I don’t do #3 it’s always my first thought!

      1. Argh!*

        Okay, I really do listen… but sometimes it’s so hard!

        My coworker who is like this reports to someone who is rather like that and probably encourages it, so I don’t expect any change.

        The real downside is that I’m reluctant to ask this person a question because the answer will be buried in a mind-numbingly boring set of unrelated (to me) details.

        1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

          Oh I’ve been there. Knowing that the answer to a question will be buried. Even worse this person was supposed to be my sole trainer for the role. It was a disaster.

          Totally not proud of this at all – but our work relationship deteriorated so much that sometimes she would get so frustrated with me that she would give me her version of the silent treatment. Those times were actually the most enjoyable and least stressfull for me, because I could finally just get work done and get very basic questions answered in a timely manner (not “how do I do this” questions, more like “step A of project X done?” because our work intersected quite a bit).

        2. Tipcat*

          Don’t assume it can’t change. Has anyone told her clearly and directly that this is a problem? Thanks, Allison.

    9. Dzhymm*

      Is it a matter of conversational style? I had someone working for me who also seemed to take forever to get to the point. After a while I came to realize that “narration” is her style of presentation; she wanted to start at the beginning and tell the whole story leading up to the problem she was asking me about. Once I realized this, I told her that it would be best if she could state the problem *first*, then work *backwards* through the story as necessary. Sometimes if she went back to her old ways I’d say “Jane, you’re narrating again”…

  18. Sophia*

    Argh, we moved to a new office recently and the fridge here is so tiny it’s not practical to bring food that needs refrigeration in case you can’t get space. Please give me suggestions for snacks that don’t need the fridge! (Other than nuts, fruits or trail mix, which are already on my list). I’ve also gotten suggestions to use an ice pack, does anyone use them? Are they effective?

    (Incidentally, does anyone know how long is hard cheese – e.g. cheddar – good for outside the fridge, I looked it up and there doesn’t seem to be a consensus.)

    1. Susan K*

      I use an ice pack in my lunch simply because our communal fridge can get gross and there’s not always space, and yes, it works. I use an insulated lunch bag and an ice pack, and it stays plenty cold until lunchtime. Something I’ve found that helps is packing an extra drink (i.e., I pack two cans of soda even though I only drink one). Since I keep the cans refrigerated until I pack my lunch, the extra mass helps to keep everything cold.

      Have you tried a snack subscription box such as Graze or Nature Box? They have tons of shelf-stable snacks.

    2. Lil Gumshoe*

      My favourite options are things like crackers/saltines, or veggie sticks (like chips but made with things like carrots or spinach). If you have access to a kettle, I also keep things like instant oatmeal, instant soup and ready-mixed coffee drinks which don’t require story any milk/creamer in the fridge.
      On the healthier side – granola bars, seaweed chips, roasted/dried spiced chickpeas.

    3. KAZ2Y5*

      I have given up on trying to store my lunch in the frig. If you are able to keep your lunch bag out with you here are my suggestions.
      1. Get a good insulated lunch bag. If you look at ebags dot com, search for “crew cooler” made by ebags. They are wonderful! The smaller one is probably what you would want.
      2. Ice packs are great. You can get the skinny ones – they look like a flat sheet of paper (sorry, don’t really know how to describe them). They don’t take much room but do keep your lunch cold.
      3. You can also stick frozen food/water in your lunch bag if you want. I always take 2 bottles of water and make sure one is frozen (you just have to be sure to take it out early enough to thaw). I also make lots of soups, casseroles, etc and freeze them in individual portions. Easy to grab for lunch plus keeps everything cool until you heat it up. This is assuming you have a microwave at work!

      1. Garland not Andrews*

        I’ve also found that if the space in your lunch bag is much larger than your lunch it helps to put a small towel over your food to help create a smaller space to be cooled.

    4. The Plaid Cow*

      If you put an ice pack in a cooler bag, I can’t imagine anything would have an issue staying good till lunchtime.

    5. Admin of Sys*

      Cheese sticks (the individually wrapped mozorella type) and the little wax-wrapped cheese rounds lasts for days w/out refrigeration. Harder cheeses are really mostly a ‘does it have mold y/n’ evaluation – parmesan has an amazing lifespan, the softer it is the less long it lasts, but if there’s a lot of humidity and mold, the timeline shifts.
      Any sort of hard sausage / pepperoni would be fine for a while, too – certainly for a day or three if sealed back up. Peanut butter and celery is always a goto for me, or peanut butter and carrots.
      I also really like the mini tuna salad kits, but, well, tuna in the office is pretty much a no-go. As for lunch itself, the insulated bag w/ an ice pack at the bottom is what I would do. And assuming you have a place to heat things up, you can freeze pre-made meals and they’ll be fine in an insulated bag until lunch. I do that with chili all the time.

      1. Anony*

        Personally I don’t like cheddar cheese that has been warm for more than an hour or so, but the way ones last great!

    6. essEss*

      1)loaf of bread in desk, and a jar of peanut butter (or peanut butter and honey)
      2) popcorn, if you have an office microwave
      3) snack crackers
      4) jerky
      5) hummus
      6) muffins, banana bread, pumpkin bread, spice bread, gingerbread ….
      7) doughnuts, croissants, cinnamon rolls

      1. essEss*

        Also, for lunch at my office we have a microwave so I’ll bring in cans of things… soup, stew, spaghettios (yes, I actually love these), chef-boy-ar-dee beefaroni, etc…

        1. Totally Minnie*

          I have a deep and abiding love for spaghettios, and I eat them in the office on a regular basis. I also keep an EasyMac in my office at all times.

          For the unaware: EasyMac is a single serving cup of macaroni and cheese. You add water to the line marked on the cup and microwave it, and it’s glorious. When I really want to go all out, I’ll add a packet of tuna to it and make my own single serving of tuna casserole. The vacuum sealed tuna packs don’t smell as strongly as canned tuna, and if you add it after the microwaving when the noodles are already hot, they warm the tuna up without you ever having to microwave fish in the workplace. :)

      2. Not a Morning Person*

        Nuts, almonds, peanuts, etc., will keep for a very loooong time. Small cans of chicken, tuna, oysters…of course fish smell may not be tolerable so you need to know your office. Canned or boxed soups and a mug for heating in the microwave.

    7. DDJ*

      There are certain pepperoni sticks that are shelf-stable – no refrigeration required! I’m also a big fan of beef jerky. I always have a big bag in my desk.

      I spent years in school bringing lunches in insulated bags with ice packs and never had a single issue. Especially with the hard cheeses, I’m sure you’d be fine.

      Here’s a delightful snack: rice cake sandwich! Two plain rice cakes, 1/2 avocado, couple slices of cheddar, salt and pepper. Wrap it in plastic wrap so that the moisture from the avocado softens up the rice cakes. It travels remarkably well (I’ve brought it on flights before, even). Since it only takes 1/2 avocado, you can make two, leave one in the fridge at home, bring one to work, and then boom, you also have a tasty snack for the next day.

    9. Natalie*

      Genuinely aged cheese doesn’t require any refrigeration – cheese making evolved as a way to preserve milk prior to refrigeration, after all.

    10. Not a Morning Person*

      Fruit and cut up veggies work, apples, berries, celery, carrots, grape tomatoes, etc. So do individually wrapped cheese sticks, including Laughing Cow wedges or Baby Bell cheeses. They do get softer but are still safe and edible for the day. I bring the occasional frozen chicken breast and it thaws enough by lunchtime for me to heat it in the office microwave and it works to keep some of the other stuff cold/cool in an insulated lunch tote.

    12. SarahKay*

      I use an insulated lunch bag with an ice pack – small when it’s just to keep my cheese cold (I like my hard cheese to be good and hard, which means cold), larger if my lunch is vulnerable to warmth as well (eg chicken salad, vs peanut butter sandwich).
      One thing to remember is that cold air flows downwards, so put your ice pack on *top* of everything else. I got told this just a few months ago, and it really does make a difference.
      If you find condensation is an issue, wrap a paper towel or small piece of absorbent cloth around the ice pack – the cold air still drops, but the cloth absorbs the condensation.

    13. My Family Owns a Cheese Store*

      Cheese can last for a very long time refrigerated. in fact, GOOD cheese is recommended that you eat it room temperature, not cold, so leaving it out before you eat it is actually probably preferable.

    14. nep*

      I’ve not tried those ice packs but it sounds like a good solution.
      Anyway, a few things that come to mind: hard-boiled eggs, peanut butter, avocado (if you’ve got time to peel/cut up…could mix w tomatoes).

      1. Blue birds fly*

        Assuming your food was properly stored ahead of time, if your food begins no warmer then 41 degrees F, and does not get warmer than 70 F, it is safe for 6 hours outside of refrigeration (for the general population). If it begins no warmer than 45F, it is safe for 4 hours. Throw away any leftovers that aren’t eaten. I prefer my food to be cold or hot, but these food science facts help me decide whether or not my lunch is safe.

    15. sympathy*

      Agreeing with the other comments, but I’d also like to add on more suggestion, if you have a window or reasonable amounts of daylight at your desk.

      Living salad leaves (they either come planted in a little tray of soil, or with a little cube of soil and roots in a plastic bag), pots of herbs (I find basil and chives grow really well), and for more advanced gardeners, buy a pot of chillis or dwarf tomatoes.

      You’ll need to water twice a week and feed them once a week, and spray them with anti-aphid and anti-fly stuff every so often (because offices have no natural predators for pests), and wash that off before you use them, but the taste and having fresh greens is worth it to me.

      I have to buy new salad leaves weekly because I use them up fast, but the herbs and veg plants can last months.

  19. JokeyJules*

    anybody work with/for google? I’ve got an interview coming up for an admin role, and would love any insight on those infamous interview questions!

    1. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      I don’t think anyone there is able to help you with the interview questions. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a NDA in place that includes the entire hiring process.

    2. Borgette*

      I’ve heard that they’ve moved away from asking the brain-teaser questions because they weren’t strong predictors of success. That said, I have no personal experience – Glassdoor interview reviews are probably the place to go for better info.

      Good luck!

    3. Bad Candidate*

      My brother works for them. I believe they’ve stopped doing those questions because it got too infamous. I think the advice would be pretty standard, show that you’re capable, knowledgeable, and good to work with. They may still do some odd ball questions just to see how you’d work with their culture though.

    4. Buffy*

      I’ve interviewed people who worked there and they said they really probe your fit for the organization or as they call it, “Googliness”. Another person explained it as be good, not evil but that doesn’t seem quite right.

      1. Zombeyonce*

        Google’s catchphrase used to be “Don’t be evil.” That may be what you’re thinking of.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          There came a time when it became obvious that they had removed the “don’t” from their motto… I do my searching with someone else now.

  20. Brainstorming*

    When we do brainstorming sessions at work it involves lots of coloured paper in different sizes, post it notes, flip chart paper, whiteboards, coloured markers, coloured dots, etc etc etc. This seems really silly and old-fashioned to me. Am I just being grumpy about it (because I’m expected to collate everything after the session)? Do other people brainstorm this way?

    1. Thlayli*

      Do they use lean six sigma by any chance? There’s recently been a swing back to those types of things in brainstorming and other types of group work, coz it’s much quicker and easier to have 5 people writing on postits and sticking them on a wall than to have 5 people sitting around a laptop while one tries desperately to keep up typing.

        1. Thlayli*

          Google lean six sigma tools and see if you recognise any of the methods. They can be very useful if used correctly but lots of people aren’t good at facilitating it properly.

          It might help to see what they’re trying to do even if they are failing at it.

    2. LKW*

      I would be grumpy only if that’s the ONLY way you brainstorm at work. People communicate in different ways – notes and dots and other methods allow people to express themselves without being in the spotlight or a bit anonymously. It gets people moving and interacting instead of sitting behnd their laptops and phones.
      Methods that require you to be in the same room and capture ideas in real time – better than assuming everyone is thinking the same thing and then getting seven different corrections to your notes.

      I miss being able to do that with teams – we’re spread out across the globe.

    3. Landshark*

      I work in academia, so my perspective is admittedly a bit skewed, but we do things like this all the time (or, barring that, have a whiteboard and just a ton of markers). It’s way easier to manage than one single set of notes, though it is a bit more old-fashioned and a heavy drain on resources.

    4. Louise*

      I brainstorm like this! I find it really helpful to have things I can pick up and move around, and using multiple colors for different types of items helps me organize things in my mind. I spent yesterday on the floor of a conference room with a stack of index cards and colored pens trying to map out a complex project. Totally get that this is not everyone’s jam, but it helps me think through things.

    5. Brainstorming*

      OK, maybe I’m just being grumpy :/

      I think there’s a lot of resentment in our organization about innovation and creativity, because one team is supposed to come up with all the creative ideas. And then those people are bad at doing things like getting their monthly reports in or reconciling their corporate credit card transactions because “they’re creative.”

      Sometimes it seems like we’re just throwing around words like innovation and failure because that’s what successful companies do. Doesn’t seem like the want ideas from the rest of us, even though we’re all supposed to be innovative.

    6. Engineer Girl*

      Different people think in different ways. The different techniques stimulate thinking for people who have differently wired brains.
      You don’t need it. Great! Others do need it.
      Since it’s brainstorming you want to get everyone’s input.

    7. Alli525*

      It sounds like a lot of your frustration is due to your being the one who has to tidy it all up afterward. Is there a way you can adjust THAT process to suit your preferences? I could see lining up all the post-its or flip charts, snapping a photo on my phone, emailing it to myself, and typing up the takeaways from that, rather than having to deal with all the unwieldy materials at your desk.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah I would just take a photo and write it up from the photo. Also if you stick the postits on a big piece of paper in the first place then stick sellotape over the post its they will remain in place and you can just roll it up.

    8. Ramona Flowers*

      You’re being grumpy. All that stuff makes it fun and playful which gets your brain working.

      1. TL -*

        Fun and playful is not helpful to everyone. It’s okay not to like it and it doesn’t get everyone’s brain working – the best way for me to brainstorm is with a simple pen/paper and talking. Colored markers, post its, and index cards aren’t going to help the creative process for me; they’ll eventually end up detracting from it.

        That being said, let other people brainstorm how they want to and bring to the table what works for you. If post-its don’t work for you, don’t use them.

    9. Akcipitrokulo*

      I find it useful sometimes… a lot of people do :) but if there’s a way that suits you better it’s perfectly ok to ask if you can try a variety of techniques so you can engage people who learn or process in diverse ways? Then you’ll probably feel more at home in one of the sessions, and be able to contribue a bit to your non-preferred one withoit being grumpy ;)

  21. Bullwinkle*

    My work has recently shifted to being more computer based, and in particular, higher mouse usage. I now routinely use several programs that require a lot of panning, zooming, clicking etc. For example, one is a CAD drafting software. As a result, I’ve been getting pain in my wrist from mouse movement, and in my pointer finger from using the scroll wheel. Someone suggested switching to a trackball mouse- does anyone here have any experience with them? Any other advice for figuring out the best ergonomics?

    1. Thlayli*

      Knew a bunch of coworkers who used them. If you are already showing signs of carpal tunnel it’s probably worth looking into. Or maybe a vertical mouse. Or just switch to using your left hand every few hours that works ok too

      1. MoreCheesePlease*

        I have similar issues (I don’t have carpal tunnel, just pain from over-use). The biggest thing that has helped me is switching mouse hands frequently. In some offices, I’ve had a right handed and a left handed mouse on either side of my keyboard. In my current setup I have a right-handed mouse and just got used to the different button orientation. Also, if there are any keyboard shortcuts you can use to select/move/resize objects, use them!!

        For specific recommendations, I’ve used the 3M joystick, which works pretty well but hurt ended up hurting my thumb (from clicking). I really like the penguin ambidextrous mouse but I’ve had two and both broke way faster than I would have expected (~6 months). I’ve also used the oyster mouse which is more traditional but let’s you move the angle from horizontal to vertical.

        1. Thlayli*

          Yeah I never bother switching the mouse to left-handed either, I just use the right-handed buttons with my left hand. It’s not any more difficult anyway.

      2. justsomeone*

        I switched to a vertical mouse with a good wrist support pad and my wrist pain evaporated. It’s been a few years and I’ll never go back!

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      I solely use a trackball mouse and have for years, and I’m completely satisfied with it. There is a learning curve, but it’s actually more accurate for teapot designing than trying to use a regular mouse since I can just barely move my thumb and the mouse registers versus have to coax my hand to barely move. My mouse is a LogitechM570. I think it was around $20 on Amazon?

    4. Samiratou*

      I use a trackball, but I don’t know how well they play with drafting or drawing software. They kind of suck if you need to do any freehand drawing or precision work, but if you need to zip around to different places on a big monitor without much movement, they’re great.

    5. Llamarama (Ding Dong)*

      I use a trackball and love it. I had a lot of pain that I thought was from a previously broken arm (because it hurt even when not using the mouse). After switching, it completely went away. I would never have attributed the pain to mouse use, but the difference was so astounding it’s amazing.

    6. Katiedid*

      I use a trackball mouse and really like it…now. It definitely has a learning curve as mentioned, so don’t be surprised if you don’t like it at first and takes some getting used to. It did help with wrist issues from using a regular mouse.

    7. The Plaid Cow*

      I have been exceedingly happy with the wireless “Logitech Wireless Trackball M570”. Since it has been replaced by a “better” model, you can get them now for only $22. Money well spent.

    8. Landshark*

      Trackballs are something I can’t really get used to, but I know people who swear by them.

      Oddly enough, another suggestion I’d pose if they’re not your thing is to get a USB gaming mouse. It doesn’t have to be one of the super high-end kinds with a million buttons, but I switched to using one for a few games and I really prefer the feel of them even for regular computing. They’re more ergonomically shaped to fit your hand, which might help with some of the finger issues at least.

    9. LCL*

      Wrist rest. I can’t use a mouse for 10 minutes without a wrist pad.
      And learn keyboard shortcuts for your programs. I am bad about this, I learned the mouse way, but am trying to do better.

      1. Solidus Pilcrow*

        My wrist situation is nearly identical to the OP’s, and I recommend a wrist rest. I use a gel kidney-shaped one.

        When my wrist first started hurting, I used a drug-store wrist brace in addition to the rest. After the stressed nerves calmed down (about a year), I was able to stop using the brace and just use the wrist rest.

        Also seconding the keyboard shortcuts. Although I know that it can be hard if you’re going between different programs. I can never keep the Photoshop shortcuts straight when I work in Word most of the day.

    10. Driving School Dropout*

      If it’s a lot of pan/zoom/rotate for graphical or CAD stuff, I highly recommend a space mouse for your non-dominant hand. I’ve been using a 3D Connexion SpaceMouse Pro for years. Their products are integrated into a ton of CAD and graphics programs. It allows you to use your non-dominant hand on trackball type thing to pan/zoom/rotate without having to click on a function. It’s a little difficult to get used to at first, but once you get into it you will never go back. If you need to justify the cost to your manager, there’s tons of studies that it reduces mouse clicks and increases productivity because you can continue functioning with your right hand while you move with the left. I think GE did a big study a while back, that might help you track down the specifics.

      I also use a vertical mouse in my right hand, which I find helps a lot.

    11. please*

      I had a similar experience and started using my mouse with my other hand sometimes. For me it’s right hand at home and left hand at work to divide the load.

      This might not be possible for everyone. I believed I was right-handed for most of my life and had been using a mouse with the the right hand. But when I started this new approach I realized I might actually be a lefty, so picking up mousing with what I’d thought was my non-dominant hand was pretty easy.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      I got this one. [Link in my reply.]I have had it for a long time( 15 plus years) and through many computers. No more wrist pain.
      I see there is another one where the ball is off to one side so you can work it with your thumb. I have not tried that one, but if you think that one would be good for you then I’d be willing to bet that you will not be disappointed.

      I can’t justify the expense, but if I had it to do all over again, I’d get the wireless one for even more comfort.

    14. krysb*

      I use one at home and the only real downside it has is that the ball and the inside get dirty and, after so long, no matter how much you clean it, the ball will stick.

    15. Red Reader*

      Gonna (third or fourth or whatever) the Logitech M570 trackball. Relatively cheap, ball is thumb-operated so you don’t have to retrain your clicking fingers, I love mine. That’s all I used for three years until a couple months ago I replaced two of them with a Logitech Ergo, which lets me use the same trackball on two computers. (I have very limited desk space.) The Ergo also has a button that slows the trackball response for detailed work, which I don’t think the M570 does, but I don’t know if that’s a sufficient reason to pay the difference. (The Ergo is like $85-90.)

    18. Trackball*

      I’ve been using a trackball for over 10 years. I developed problems with my right hand, so I use it left handed. It really messes other people up when they try to use my computer! :)

      I tried some different kinds ergonomic mice, but really, I just can’t use any kind of mouse with my right hand at all. I like the trackball a lot – part of my problem with the mouse was that I was clutching it too tight with my pinkie finger to control the movement. I don’t have that issue at all with the trackball. Because it sits on the desk and doesn’t move, you can use small gentle movements to control it. Some people have a hard time learning how to use it.

      I’ve only ever used the one with the ball on top, not the one with the ball on the side (they don’t make them for lefties).

    19. Bea W*

      I switched to a thumb trackball about 20 years ago for the same issue and love it. It took a bit of getting used to, but I find it so much easier and less painful to use than a regular mouse. I normally don’t have pain now, but if I have to spend the day using a regular mouse I have issues.

    20. baconeggandcheeseplease*

      It sounds like you already got a lot of great mouse solutions, but in the meantime, while you’re waiting for your new mouse to be ordered (or whatever option you go with), have you tried using your middle finger to scroll? I generally only my pointer finger to click, and then my middle finger sits like half touching the scroll wheel and the right click button. I (personally) find that way less stress on my pointer finger.

    22. Accountress*

      Make sure you’re doing exercises too! Get two squeeze balls (not too firm), and do 10-15 squeezes at the beginning, middle, and end of your work day. It’s cheesy, but important.

    23. LQ*

      I like the trackball too and used one for a long time. I have a standard mouse at work. But at home (I do a ton of audio editing work in my hobby/side gig) I’ve switched to a trackpad. (I use the mac one.) It is really nice. I think a lot of it is just changing up what you do. I’ve looked into getting a tablet/pen combo for home but I just have a hard time feeling like I’d be able to edit audio like that. (Though I thought the same about the trackpad but it is way better because zoom is 1000 times easier with the trackpad (and the right software). Not using the same input all the time is helpful overall.

      I miss the really old logitech trackball, I went looking to replace my mouse with that one and couldn’t bring myself to go for the thumb one so went for the trackpad instead.

        1. LQ*

          OH! That’s the one! …I might have to get myself one…I didn’t see any when I went looking last year so glad to see it! Yay…also…you might be a nerd when you get excited about ordering a decade old trackball…

    24. Alli525*

      This is probably prohibitively expensive unless you can ask your company to pay for it as an accommodation, but my grandboss uses a Wacom pad instead of a mouse (her husband is a designer of some type and had an extra one at home). You’d be gripping a pen-shaped instrument rather than a mouse.

    25. kittycad*

      I’ve worked with CAD and other graphics programs for over 20 years. So far, I’ve been lucky not to have problems with my wrist.
      Check your posture; you should be sitting up straight with your feet flat on the ground. If you are short, use a foot stand for your feet.
      Check the wrist angle when your hand is sitting relaxed on the mouse. It should be flat and add a wrist supporter to make the wrist flat if necessary. Replace the supporter when it’s too flat to help your wrist.
      Your hand should be relaxed on the mouse. If you feel you are pushing or pulling the mouse, the mouse may need cleaning, change the mouse pad, or if nothing else works, replace mouse. Go to a computer store and actually test the mice on display before selecting one.
      Ensure that you have the proper support when using the keyboard also.
      Ensure the monitor is at the correct height since this may help your posture.
      Schedule breaks from using the mouse, for example type using the keyboard, massage your hand, or get up and walk around. I normally type commands in CAD instead of using the mouse to select the icon. It’s a habit formed when CAD didn’t have icons for commands and old habits are hard to break.
      Above all, relax. Tension has a habit of making your hand work harder which can lead to aches.

    26. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      I occasionally have wrist issues and I’ve tried the trackballs–don’t like them.

      Lots of good suggestions below. Have you thought about a wacom tablet (one of the low-end ones?) It’s basically a drawing pad with a pen for a mouse. I liked it because you can just tap the pen against the pad to click on things, so no double/single clicks.

      The Bamboo version used to go for about $60. I think the new ones are similar. Refurbs may be even cheaper.

    27. sympathy*

      I’m extremely right hand dominant and never learned to touch type, so I use my mouse exclusively with my left hand to try and cut down on the amount of stuff I do with my right hand. and I also use wrist rests.

      I also use a touchpad accessory (like on a laptop, but a little square usb accessory that plugs in just like a mouse). I really like it and still use it sometimes; it puts my hand in a different position and use different fingers for the buttons, so I use it to spread the load when my hand starts to stiffen up from overdoing the mouse.

  22. Robin*

    Just a vent about something I definitely can’t change, but hoping for some sympathetic ears from people who share my dislike of hot-desking

    Basically, we’ve recently moved a hot-desk system, and it seems most people are okay with it. Most days people just go to the same desk, with some people who seem to enjoy moving around a bit more.

    Myself I tend to be the kind who would prefer a work area I can ‘personalise’ (not even in the sense of putting up photos or decorations, but just having my screen/keyboard/mouse set up in a certain way). So I usually go to the same desk and most of the time it’s not a problem, but on the occasions where I get there a bit late and someone else is sitting there, I feel…weirdly possessive? Like, I feel as if they’ve taken something that’s ‘mine’, even though I don’t have any more claim to a certain desk than anyone else? (It’s not like it’s even in a particularly desirable spot or whatever, it’s just a habit thing.)

    Yeah yeah, I know i need to get over it and get used to the hot-desking mindset, but I still can’t help grumble a little bit.

    1. DCompliance*

      On your laptop, can make your backdrop a picture that will make you happy and feel in some way your workspace is personalized?

    2. LKW*

      I get it – when you have a week long workshop – people take the same seats every day. We all have these habits. The person taking the seat hopefully doesn’t know it’s your preferred seat or that person is a jerk.

    3. A Nonny Mouse*

      If my workspace switched to hot-desking, I would look for another job. It’s demeaning, pure and simple.

    4. medium of ballpoint*

      I think hot desking would suck, and I’m sorry it’s an irritation you have to deal with!

    5. Lora*

      I know. I have no help for you other than being sorry and it sucks. Most of my employers have moved to hot desking the past few years. It’s the pits, I work from home if I can, but some of them like to hover over me or have me on hand to talk at in person.

      I was like that when I took the train to work every day. There was one car that was like, “my” car because it always had a few window seats or a table seat available, and I like to be able to either open my laptop and do work or else curl up into a ball leaning on the window to nap. If the car was all full of new people who didn’t take the train much, I got tetchy. Or if they swapped it with one of the older cars that didn’t have the more comfortable seats.

    6. Free Meerkats*

      I made this observation in a long ago job where I was commuting on a foot ferry that took about 15 minutes. People get REALLY possessive about “their” seat.

      One day I took a different time ferry than usual for early training. I’m terminally early to things, so I got there early (it was the first ferry of the morning) and grabbed a seat. As the boat was untying dock lines a woman rushed down the dock (delaying our departure) and I was In. Her. Seat. I pointed at a seat close by and went back to my book. She spent the entire ride standing in front of me fuming and complaining that she sat in that seat on that ferry every day and had for the last 10 years and how dare I force her to stand and on and on and on. Yeah, I could have just gotten up and moved, but I was enjoying the little window into the human condition; and I was cranky about having to get to work early for a 14 hour day instead of the normal 12.

      I don’t have to deal with hot desking, and it would drive me nuts. But if I did, I would deliberately sit in a different location every day. And that’s my advice to you, make a game of it and sit in a different place each day. Don’t get in a rut. Keep a map, x-ing out each desk you’ve used and see how long it takes you to sit in every desk available to you.

        1. Free Meerkats*

          I didn’t think of it that way, but make it a workgroup-wide competition!

          Rules:
          1. You can only claim one desk a work day.
          2. You have to work at that desk for at least a half-day.
          3. If there’s one especially bad desk (directly under the vent/next to the bathroom/whatever), it’s a Free Square.
          4. If there’s one especially desirable desk (by a window/secluded in a corner/whatever), it has to be used more than once.
          5. No disabling power strip or internet connection to make desk unusable.

          That’s all I can come up with on the fly, feel free to add.

    7. Bea W*

      My old employer is switching to this system. People are dreading it. There was a test area set up, and it’s as terrible as I suspected, with people being assigned a small locker for their belonings. You can’t have food or drink at your desk to avoid mess since it’s shared space. All of my former coworkers expect to switch to wfh pretty much all the time just to avoid this nightmare.

        1. Alli525*

          If you have a lot of remote workers or people in satellite offices that frequently come into the main office (and main office folks who travel a lot), it makes sense because then people don’t have to cross their fingers that they’ll be able to find a seat when they come in.

          But I suspect that most execs making these decisions spent 5 minutes learning about the concept, the words “DYNAMIC SYNERGY” flashed across their eyeballs, and they lost their marbles. Just like open-concept offices – or cubicle farms for that matter. It’s a trend, a bad trend in many cases, but most execs are so far removed from cubicle farms that they just don’t think it matters.

          1. Troutwaxer*

            I think it’s a matter of the difference between high management and workers. High management are frequently raving extroverts, and they do most of their work in meetings and by socializing/networking as they work out their ideas for the organization.

            But once the meeting with the workers is over, the high-ranking manager goes to another meeting, but the workers now have to concentrate on creating their own highly detailed piece of the larger picture, which means thinking and concentrating while not being interrupted. It’s not just “cheaper” or “have more control” but two completely different styles of working (and thinking about work.)

      2. Close Bracket*

        > You can’t have food or drink at your desk

        All the nopes. If the hotdesking hadn’t already driven me out, this would.

        Tbf, Bose had a no food/drink policy for their office workers bc the folks on the manufacturing floor *couldn’t* have them. That strikes me as fair.

    8. SarahKay*

      No advice, I’m afraid, just all my sympathy. I have my monitors *exactly* lined up the way I like them at just the right height, keyboard and mouse in very precise places. I’ve even asked the cleaners not to dust it; I’d rather do it myself so the monitors don’t get out of alignment. (What, picky, me?!? Surely not) If I had to hotdesk I would seriously look at finding a new job.

    9. ExcelJedi*

      We have a hybrid hot-desk/not system at my job, because a lot of people travel and are only in somewhere between 2-4 days per week. When I first started, I was asked to do it too until I came on full time. I hated every minute of it. I need at least 2 monitors to work, plus a real mouse and keyboard, especially if I’m working in a coding environment (which is about half my job).

      If they asked me to do it full time, I’d start looking for a new job.

    10. Close Bracket*

      That would make me nuts. I need to store my stash of tea and advil, and I need to feel like a space is “mine.” I don’t decorate at the office, but having my own space makes me feel like I belong. I’m also mildly autistic, and that might play a role. I’m actually very open to change and new things, but you bet I would use my autism to push back on a hotdesk situation (yes, I’m a bad person. idgaf.).

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, I need my own space and my things around me. I don’t have a ton of decor, but I have my cozy wrap for chilly days, my teacup and tea, my snack drawer, my extra shoes…..OK, I do have a lot of stuff. And I like it.

    11. Ann O.*

      Hotdesking seems like a worker’s comp claim waiting to happen to me. For desk jobs, a proper chair/monitor/keyboard set up is super important.

    12. Observer*

      Ask your IT folks if they can implement something called “roaming profiles”. This keeps certain information about your desktop linked to your login and on the network, so that it come up on any computer you log into. It’s not a complete solution by any means, but it does help a bit.

    13. sympathy*

      I hate hot desking because it discriminates against workers with illnesses/diabilities, elderly colleagues, pregnant workers, etc.

      It makes it impossible to have a quiet word with your boss and get your environment set up to suit you and minimise your pain or the impact of stuff like migraines or autism or whatever, without having to tell the entire office your business.

      Instead, you end up either having to go without your adjustments, make yourself stand out by having an ‘exempt’ desk (which some other workers will notice and hate you for), or having to announce your disability/health needs (and argue your case for why you need *that* desk, and yes, they need to move) with colleagues and visitors several times a week/month.

      I tried it – ONCE. It’s humiliating and exhausting. I quit my job rather than deal with it last time employer tried to bring it in. I AM NEVER HOTDESKING AGAIN.

  23. jstarr*

    It’s performance review time. I did well this year, I think. And while raises for anyone are looking rather dim, I would like to somehow express my desire to grow my roll in the organization to my boss. The issue is a)I’d also like to get paid for it and b)I’m a department of one and any “growth” would have to be in another department. How do?

    1. Ashley*

      Depending on what you do a great way is to show your new role would create revenue or save money for the pay difference.

  24. Internal applicant*

    When is the right time to ask questions about benefits etc. when you’re applying for a job in another department at the same company? My friend said I should ask before I apply because otherwise I am just wasting everyone’s time if I don’t accept the job. My husband said I should ask before the interview, if I get one, because it would look bad to turn down the job if they offer it to me. I thought the right time to ask was if they offer me the job. Thoughts?

    2. Natalie*

      In my experience different departments don’t have different benefits, unless maybe you’re transitioning from the retail floor to the corporate office or something?

      1. Internal applicant*

        I would be moving from a non-Union to a Union job. I could potentially lose some benefits & vacation time, but it’s complicated by the fact that it’s a term position.

        1. Natalie*

          Got it, that makes sense.

          My experience with unions is that the pay scale and benefits are all codified and easy to get from the union, so I would just go ahead and ask about it. Sometimes your supervisor can advocate for having you graded higher based on prior experience, and thus you can start at a higher wage and maybe more PTO.

          Since it’s an internal position, the usual rules about not talking about benefits until after an interview don’t quite apply in the same way.

        2. Thlayli*

          If it’s a union job you can probably contact the union anytime even before the interview and find out what the benefits and so on are. Many unions where I live even publish pay scales on their websites.

    3. StrikingFalcon*

      If it’s a job like retail for a corporate-owned store, where whether or not they offer benefits is beyond the control of the hiring manager, it makes sense to ask before you apply or before you interview if that’s a deal breaker (although it would also be fine to ask in the interview).

      I also don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask before the interview if they offer benefits if it’s a part-time job or other position where it’s common not to offer them, or if it’s difficult for you to take time off to interview. I wouldn’t get into any details then, just a quick “Can you tell me if benefits are offered for this position? I do need them, so I don’t want to waste your time if not.” I also think that would be reasonable to ask (minus the second half of course) in the interview.

  25. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    Decided to fire up the job search.

    Aaaaaaand after reading several job descriptions, I’m feeling so stuck. I don’t feel like I have any skills that will be useful elsewhere. Which, deep down, I know is untrue. Plus, I’ve read enough on here to also know it’s not true.

    I’m throwing myself a pity party today (possibly tomorrow, we’ll see what the weekend brings). I find if I lean into the skid at first, I can course correct after I exhaust the YouTotallySuck Monster for a few days.

    1. paul*

      Right there with you; it’s so easy to look at those descriptions and just….like freeze up, and think “Oh god they want someone so much better than me” and get into kind of a fear/self-loathing induced pit of thinking you’re not good enough to get a job. We’ve just gotta keep telling ourselves that’s not the case.

      Good luck fellow job-seeking-anxiety person!

      1. Britt*

        +1 — I’m going through the same thing right now. Many people don’t understand (I’m temp. living with my parents, who *really* don’t understand)…. it’s refreshing to read about those who experience similar anxiety! We will push through! :)

    2. Karo*

      Ugh, I know that feeling. Like, I’ve been doing llama grooming for years, but apparently my company does it ALL WRONG so I don’t have any real-life job skills that people need to get my level position at a real llama company. I had a one-way video interview last week and I gave up after I had to look up 3 definitions within the first 5 questions.

    3. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I’m right there with you, too. You KNOW you have skills that are transferrable. I believe there was a thread on here earlier this week about applying when you meet at least 70-80% of the requirements. That’s what I do. I know that one of the resumes will get in the right hands. It always has before.

    4. TGIF*

      Completely feel this. After struggling to find my first post-college job, I was told by many people that the second job would be a lot easier since I had a real job on my resume. Except my first post-college job did not give me a lot of skills and didn’t sound that impressive so it took me a very long time to get into my second job, where I currently am. It was so disheartening! So you have all my sympathy!

    5. hermit crab*

      I think this is one of those things that, if you’re worrying about it, it’s actually kind of a *good* thing — like, it’s a sign you’re on the correct side of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Good luck exhausting the YouTotallySuck Monster!

    7. Like The City*

      Same. I get frustrated looking at job descriptions and just stop for a while. It also doesn’t help that, on paper at least, I have a good job and anytime I try to vent or look for job search help with the few people I would trust with that info I get so many “but it’s such a great job, why would you want to leave” comments. I feel stuck and like I’m not going to find the right thing, which isn’t true but sometimes that’s how it feels.

    8. boop the first*

      I know this doesn’t help, but same! I’m being laid off in the spring from my retail job (along with several hundred others), but I loved the part-time schedule (which allows me to better pursue my side gig) and the walking commute so much that I don’t want to leave until the last minute.

      But I’m so unwanted here that I may not be able to land any new crappy job for a looonnngg time so I’m not sure when to start applying. I’m watching the listings in case something interesting pops up, but usually it’s 50 pages of total garbage I know I’ll just hate doing.

      My biggest fear is getting desperate, landing a horrible depressing job that forces me to work full-time and commute 45 minutes each way and I’ll have to quit the side-gig, which is my real passion and pretty much the only thing I want to do with my life.

      I can make a pretty good cake for the pity party though.. *throws confetti*

    9. nep*

      I can relate to ALL these comments. Can be so demoralizing — which is precisely the opposite of what we need if we’re going to be positive and believe in our worth. I must just continue to push on, search smartly, and keep refining my materials I’m putting out there.
      Good luck, all.

    10. anonagain*

      Same. I look at job listings and wonder what I’ve been doing all these years and why I have no experience in anything.

  26. Nervous Accountant*

    Yesterday was my first day back. It took me longer than usual to catch up to emails etc, bc a lot of ppl kept stopping by to talk to me, and I got lots of hugs and condolences, so that was very nice and welcome.

    I got a nasty email from a client who was upset that I was out of the country.

    Every email she had sent me had an auto away message that said I was away due to a family emergency.

    My coworker stepped in my absence and gave her whatever she needed and explained why I was away.

    Still today she sent an email that goes out to our upper Mgmt about how dare I be away.

    I hate people today.

    2. bluelyon*

      Agreed – people suck.
      And some are just demanding to be demanding – hopefully your management tells the client to grow up!

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Nope. Either she will be reassigned to some poor woman (client only wants a female) or ill have to talk to her and smooth things over. Shrugs

        2. Anono-me*

          I’m so sorry about your loss and about you receiving such a horrible email upon your return to work.

          Please explain how it is legal, ethical or smart for your company to allow this? (I understand in situations where there is personal contact, like a PAC or TSA screener.)

          1. Alli525*

            To allow what? An account to be reassigned from one person to another? That’s perfectly legal. Even the gender thing doesn’t really factor in from a *legal* perspective, because it’s a client’s request, not the company’s decision. If the client brings in a lot of money, it would be a *smart* decision to humor/placate the client. And ethical, sure, it would be great if the company decided to take a stand, but I don’t think there’s anything inherently unethical about NOT taking a stand.

            There’s just not a lot of impact here other than Nervous Accountant’s desire to be treated nicely.

            1. Nervous Accountant*

              Not sure what your last statement means. I’ve taken my fair share of shit here but this is some next level BS.

              Reassignments are actually common for us. Your accountant is out on vacation or has surgery or on medical leave? Ok u get assigned to someone else if you can’t wait til they get back. Bosses don’t give us a hard time about that. All clients pay the same amt of $$. I’m not sure where legalities come in to this. It’s not illegal to be an asshole.

              1. Anono-me*

                I’m very uncomfortable about the client being able to specify that they only wanted to work with women. What if they said they only wanted to work with men, or people who were _____?

                1. Nervous Accountant*

                  I have yet to see someone request a male only. The most common requests we’ve gotten are female only, or someone with no accent. In my experience, the ones who request females only tend to be the more unreasonable, difficult clients. I can sympathize a bit with the ones who have a hard time understanding other accents. But if and when it does happen, we are encouraged to accommodate the client best we can.

              2. Alli525*

                Sorry, I wasn’t responding to you about legalities – I was responding to Anono-Me who implied that there might be legal issues.

        3. Blue Eagle*

          Smoothing things over because they were upset that you personally couldn’t respond to them while you are at a funeral! Ridiculous!

          Better to have them reassigned to someone else if at all possible.

          Sorry to hear about your loss – sending you positive energy and virtual hugs.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            my mgr spoke to her. He said she didn’t care.And she refused to be reassigned. Wanted to work with me.

    3. Stormy*

      How on earth could management respond to something so ridiculous?

      “We’re very sorry to have inconvenienced you. In the future, we will only hire childless orphans so as to ensure that our employees have no personal lives and that you remain their focus.”

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I would be so tempted to reply to her and say “I’m so sorry my father dying was inconvenient for you.”

      [probably don’t take my advice]

      1. Lynca*

        I would have said something exactly like that if I had come back to an away message chastising me for being away in bereavement.

        I don’t think that anyone would have been able to stop me.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        One place I worked for had a standardized spiel that I thought was pretty good.
        “Teapots Everywhere understands and accommodates employees in cases of personal emergency. While not a common occurrence, there maybe times when an employee is not available to assist a particular client. In recognition that could happen, other employees are trained and are available to assist you. This is so the client does not experience a gap in service. Many businesses in our arena work in a similar manner because it is critical to answer the clients when they have questions or concerns.”

        In short: “Client, crap happens in people’s lives. Here’s how our company deals with it. Get over it.”
        The “get over it” part comes when you point out that it is fairly standard in the industry to have people lined up who will jump in when the primary person is not available.

        If you pass me your phone, I would be DELIGHTED to explain this to this individual for you. Very sorry you have to deal with such poop.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          So update. My mgr talked to her. And she knew what happened but didn’t care. They said she was heartless.

          I’m so close to walking out of work today and leaving on the spot.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            Someone convince me This horrible person isn’t worth losing my salary and job over.

            1. Overeducated*

              If your management said she was heartless, I hope they won’t stick you with her any more, having witnessed that. If they say you have to keep working with her, then walking would be really hard to resist.

            2. Radius20*

              Seriously, it is worth losing your job over if they force you to continue working with someone so heartless. This person obviously believes you are their personal slave.

            3. Mm Hmm*

              Don’t give her that power.
              She’s not worth your job.
              Your mgmnt called her heartless, so you have some support.
              Leave when *you* choose, not when a heartless person is decorating herself with Heartless label.

            4. Alli525*

              One person isn’t worth it. She’s a tiny, petty human, and yeah management is taking you off her account at HER request, but the silver lining is that now you don’t have to deal with a garbage person anymore! Some people are just determined to be miserable jerks – don’t let your anger, compounded by your grief at losing a family member, tank a job that (I assume) you otherwise like.

              Also, I assume from your username that you’re an accountant, which means your hours are getting longer and you have a lot of work stress on top of the loss of your father. If you have an EAP or a therapist/counselor, I’d recommend taking advantage of those resources. I’m so sorry for your loss.

          2. Epsilon Delta*

            Seriously? The client didn’t care? Right now if you can just manage to not tell her to f*** off and take her business elsewhere I think you deserve a gold star for professionalism and level-headedness. I don’t know if I would earn that star in your shoes.

            1. Nervous Accountant*

              I’m not speaking to her til Monday. Hopefully the weekend should calm me down. Once we deliver the final product she’ll be done w us. I sent her an email to acknowledge her “inconvenience” and that we have a call.

              Funny thing I checked her FB (out of curiosity) and it’s all posts & pix about being loving and kind and wonderful and other hypocritical bullshit.

              1. Totally Minnie*

                Is it at all possible to have your manager with you when you have this meeting? I’m worried that this garbage human is going to try and force you to apologize for having one of the worst experiences of your life, and you shouldn’t have to do that.

                1. Nervous Accountant*

                  It’ll be a phone meeting. He spoke to her first to field the issue and relayed it to me.

                  I will definitely post here next Friday w an update

    5. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Yeah… read the below. If everyone is paying the same $$, any particular reason your boss doesn’t want to fire this client? She seems like a rude terror.

      So sorry you have to deal with this on top of everything you are going through.

  27. polkadotteacup*

    I’m a grad student about to start my first teaching assistantship next week. I’m really looking forward to it but also terrified I’m going to screw up somehow. I know TA’s have a big impact on how students perceive the organization of the class and whether or not they enjoy it and I’m just scared that someone will ask me something and I’ll have no idea how to answer it. On top of this, my first task is to run labs the first week – I’m basically there to walk the students through the assignment, but I’m lowkey scared of the lab director, who will also be there to help run the machines (he’s used misogynistic language before and I’m a woman). I’m just going to steel myself and try to do my best because I am super excited about it but… also terrified.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      My time as a TA was spent running labs – the class itself was still taught by the prof. I found it’s not nearly as intimidating as teaching the full class, but it does take a little practice to get over the nerves. You’ll probably see that the lab assignments are easy to you but complicated to the students, so you might spend most of the time just answering questions. To me that was the best part.

      What I did was review the assignment and give the students a description of it for a few minutes at the start of class, answer any questions then, and then let them try it out. I’d walk around sometimes to see how people were doing, particularly since some will be shy about coming up to ask for help, or have questions that only occur in the moment. Hopefully you’ll find it fun (maybe in hindsight?), I did. :-)

      1. polkadotteacup*

        Thanks! I hope it goes smoothly. I’m just afraid of not knowing the answer to something. When I took this class as an undergrad I did really well but that was five years ago and since my grad work doesn’t have much to do with the class I’m afraid I’ve forgotten a lot. I’ve already gone through the reading for the first week and it’s coming back to me but the number of times I’ve thought “man I forgot about this” to myself makes me scared.

        1. StrikingFalcon*

          They don’t expect perfection. I TA’d for a while and now am teaching my own class. I fumble over my words at least once a class, and sometimes I have to pause to think about where I was going with the sentence I’ve started. I’m working on it, but honestly no one cares. All they really want is a teacher who is clear about the grading standards and who cares that they learn something. They can understand “this isn’t my area of specialty and occasionally I’ll have to look something up.” You still know more about the topic than they do.

      2. Murphy*

        ^ Pretty much exactly this is what I did. I ended up enjoying it as well.

        Also, if you don’t know the answer, that’s ok! You probably have a better idea of how to figure out the answer than they do and you can walk through it together.

    2. knapplepi*

      It is totally acceptable to tell a student that you cannot immediately answer a question but that you will get back to them with an answer as soon as you can! I have been teaching for over thirty years and every now and then a student will pose a question that is well outside of the typical question that I expect. I like to take the time to fully think through the question before I respond. Those students who approach my subject in new and unusual ways help me to stay on my toes!

      1. Landshark*

        +1 to this! I get questions like this where either I don’t know or, on occasion, I brain fart. It’s totally acceptable to say that you don’t know, but you’ll find out, so long as you follow through.

    3. Anonymeow*

      I work at a university supporting TAs in the teaching labs! I’ve only done a little work directly with the students, but from my semi-outside perspective, as long as you’re friendly and willing to work with them, the majority of them will enjoy the class. There might always a few students who are disgruntled or troublesome or just won’t like you for whatever reason, but I’ve seen those people very rarely.

      Don’t worry if you don’t know how to answer a question right away, since it’s all a learning process! I’ve been familiar with our experiments for years but sometimes I still have to take a moment to think about the question and work it through step-by-step with the student. It’s okay to admit that you don’t know an answer and you’ll look it up and get back to them, as others have said. You should definitely review the assignment yourself before you jump into teaching it to other people, but it’s not expected of you to know everything before stepping into the role of a TA.

      I’m sorry to hear about your lab director! If there are other support staff who are more palatable, I definitely recommend talking to them. They’re all there to help you out since we all want the labs to run smoothly :)

      Good luck and I hope you have fun teaching!!

      1. Gloucesterina*

        Just realized that my response (when it comes out of moderation due to a resource link!) echoes a lot of themes from Anonymeow!

    4. Gloucesterina*

      congrats polkadotteacup!

      one way I can think of to approach this is: you’re here to de-mystify the learning process for students, and as a TA you’re far better positioned than a faculty member to do it, since you may have memories of what it’s like to encounter material for the first time, what it’s like to push through difficulties and challenges (whether with the material or the environment in which you’re learning). that doesn’t mean knowing all the answers to every possible question, but modeling ways to get to the answer (what sub-questions to answer, what resources to refer to.)

      you might also find this resource out of University of Michigan’s teaching center on lab teaching to be helpful:
      http://www.crlt.umich.edu/gsis/p7_6

    5. CheeryO*

      Honestly, the fact that you care and are self-aware means you’ll be a great TA. I never ran a lab, but I did office hours, grading, and some limited teaching for three semesters. I was SO terrified before I started, because I didn’t feel remotely qualified, but I ended up doing fine and I’m sure you will too.

      I definitely had some moments where I didn’t know how to help a student, but I think as long as you do your best and follow up with them if you think of something after the fact, you’ll be fine. A lot of times just being there for them to talk out their thought process is helpful (and I found that some of the students were kind of delighted when I didn’t know an answer right away, because it made them feel better about being confused).

    6. Humanities PhDer*

      I was similarly nervous my first time TAing (in the humanities, so slightly different), didn’t feel comfortable with the material, and it was my first semester of grad school… The prof told me “remember, you know more than your students.” And he was right! Not in knowing every detail about the material, but in general being more advanced than them, better able to find out information, to think through problems. And responding that you’re not sure about something to a question is completely fine!

    7. Lora*

      See if the university offers teaching classes for TAs. My adviser thought it was a waste of time, but I found it really helpful learning how to develop grading rubrics and lesson organization and learning the quirks of the university’s website management software.

      Asking you a thing you don’t know how to answer will be the least of your worries. Trust me on this one. Here are the big things:
      “I studied really hard for this exam and I only got a B+! You should change my grade to an A!”
      “I didn’t do the [small, minimal effort, would have taken 15 minutes of Googling/Wikipedia/looking at the textbook before class] assignment, can I have an extension?” [After you’ve told them on Day 1 they get a 0 for the lab if they didn’t have it done.]
      [In the middle of an exam] “What’s the right answer to this test question? … What do you mean, you can’t tell me?!? That’s not fair!”
      “But I neeeeeeeeed a good grade in this class for [sportsball, graduation, medical school application etc.]”
      “I forgot to tell you three months ago that I need disability accommodations, so my last two major exam grades shouldn’t count and I should be allowed to re-take them and also you have to come up with a way to accommodate my disability for the next two exams and the class project.” [Without any of the official paperwork they need from the student support office for any of this.]
      “You assigned us too much reading, so I just didn’t do it.” The reading in question can be as little as four pages in a textbook, to be discussed in two weeks.
      Eating their lunch in the lab, getting crumbs everywhere and contaminating their own food.
      And finally, my personal favorite, putting biohazard / chemical waste down the sink or leaving it in the lab bench drawers to dry out and stink.

      1. Overeducated*

        Yes. All of this. These are the big things. Also, make sure you’re on the same page as the professor about a) how you will deal with students who have attendance or completion issues for non-medical reasons (family and life stuff) and b) how much flexibility you will have in making those decisions vs following a standard policy or having the professor make determinations.

        1. Lora*

          Oh, and cheating. Be really sure you’re clear on how cheating will be handled. I had one managing professor who gave zero fks and was ready to retire and happily handed out Fs to anyone caught cheating, and another who shrugged and said it wasn’t worth the time and effort to drag in front of the dean of students. My undergrad was a small college who would expel your butt if a professor accused you of cheating – it was NOT done and students who were caught cheating were booted out of the school with no mercy, so finding out that Huge State U would give you three chances and each time had to include hard evidence was a heck of a surprise.

          1. As Close As Breakfast*

            Oh yes, this. My worst day by far as a TA (and I did it in one form or another for about 7 years) was when I caught a student SERIOUSLY cheating on a midterm. I had to confiscate the exam, escort the student out of the room, notify the professor and side-step inquiries from the other students. After the exam the professor and I went over all of the ‘cheating’ materials the student had and decided to report them. This was at a big UC, and I ended up ‘testifying’ in disciplinary hearings about it. It was unpleasant all around. And tbh, more than once during the whole process I wished I had just never noticed the student was cheating.

            So, in summary, go over with the professor how they would like you to handle a situation involving cheating in case you are ever faced with it.

    8. Grad Student*

      Adding to what everyone else said:

      – You’ll grasp the material much more quickly than the students will, having done it before.
      – Different students will ask you the same question repeatedly, so if you bungle the answer the first time you’ll be a pro by the fourth time.
      – More importantly: if you don’t know an answer off the top of your head that’s ok! It can be useful for the students to see how a more experienced person works through a problem. Often when students ask me things (I’m a longtime physics TA) I may not know the answer immediately but I know what to think about in order to figure it out, and that’s usually more helpful to present anyway (“if you give a man a fish” etc.).

      I’m sorry about your lab director’s misogyny; that’s cruddy. I am sure that you are awesome no matter what he says! It is also clear from your comment that you care a lot about helping the students, which is important and unfortunately not true of every instructor.

    9. Yorick*

      If you feel it would help, you can work through the assignments (or write out how you’d do it) before they get them so you know everything they might ask about. But that’s not really necessary.

      For more general questions, you can say you don’t know the answer! I have googled things during class (or asked a student to) when there was a question. I’ve also said I’d look into it and then came to the next class and went over the answer if it seemed important or interesting enough to do so.

    10. Reba*

      I actually don’t think your impact as a TA is all that great — and I mean this in a good way! It’s not all on you. I was super nervous when I started teaching in grad school, but I quickly came to love it. I enjoy being “on” for class, coming up with new ways to explain things, and I’ve found that there are always some really fun students to balance out the duds :)

      I do think women instructors have a tough row to hoe particularly if student evaluations are important to your performance, since social biases in student evaluations are rife! And double that in your lab with the sexist supervisor, ugh. I’ve deliberately tried to create a persona for students that is approachable but not totally-at-your-service/Mom.

      Good luck and I hope you enjoy it!

    11. Overeducated*

      Good luck! It is terrifying the first time and I agree with a lot of the comments above.

      One thing I’d add is that even if you’re not 100% great at it in the first semester, that’s ok, so cut yourself some slack. Teaching is a learned skill, asking good questions at the right level can take some trial and error, and building rapport with students doesn’t come naturally to everyone (especially if you’re intimidated by someone else in the room…). I was a mediocre TA my first semester because I got thrown in with no training. I did my best, my students did well, and we had some great days, but we had some days with too many awkward silences and my evaluations were not an endless parade of 10/10s. I was a better TA my second semester, and a better primary instructor after that. Whatever mistakes you make, you’ll learn a lot from them.

      I’m sorry you are worried about the lab director, that sounds like it is not a great atmosphere. My advice to you would be the catchphrase “carry yourself with the confidence of a mediocre white man.” Seriously.

    12. Todd Chrisley Knows Best*

      As a student, my only preference for a TA was that they didn’t go on a power trip. My chem professor had a girl that was just a year ahead of me and she had the most annoying voice – which would have been fine if she wasn’t constantly using it to yell at us like we were her pre-k class. Treat everyone as a human and you’ll be fine!

  28. shep*

    This isn’t really a question, but I think I may have been borderline surly to someone in the elevator the other day as I was leaving work. I’m not particularly sorry, but I’m also wondering if maybe I overreacted a touch.

    I had my earbuds in and was vaguely aware of the two suited-and-briefcased men already on the elevator talking as I got on, and heard something about “the young lady with the ear plugs.”

    I didn’t feel well; I was exhausted and slightly nauseous per a medication switch, and not in the mood to talk. (Also general PSA: Don’t try to bait me by speaking about me in third person, ESPECIALLY when I likely cannot hear you.)

    I was scrolling through my phone to find the podcast I wanted, when I realized the men were watching me and smiling. (UM NO.) One of them literally LEANED DOWN AND INTO my field of vision until I finally looked up. (I’m a short human, so he had to go out of his way to lean down.) The exchange went something like this:

    ME: “YES??”

    HIM: “We were talking about you!”

    ME: “Sorry. It’s been a long day.”

    Then I booked it out of there as soon as the doors opened. I wasn’t entirely rude, but I made it very clear I was not pleased by the interaction.

    BUT THEN I got trapped in the elevator again with the guy who’d leaned into my space so patronizingly.

    This time, it was in the middle of the day. He goes, “Ohhhh, you’re not wearing headphones this time,” and I shit you not, the thing that popped out of my mouth was, “Yeah, and I’m not nauseous this time either.”

    I did NOT sound friendly, and once it came out of my mouth I realized it was probably a total non sequitur to him.

    I meant it as a shorthand way of saying, “Yeah, when you caught me last time I felt sick and gross, and I didn’t appreciate you patronizing me and invading my space and speaking to me like I’m an eight-year-old child expected to do its piece instead of an adult woman.” In retrospect, I probably should’ve said something more like that, but I’m no good at witty and/or snappy retorts in the moment.

    I admit that I have some mild social anxiety and making small-talk in the elevator, but I’m usually a very nice, friendly person when engaged with. I’m also totally conflict-averse, so it was not a characteristic thing for me to say.

    But OH MY EFF, was I ever rubbed the wrong way by him leaning into my space the previous day.

    Anyway, that’s by far the surliest I’ve EVER been to anyone in an office setting.

    2. rosenstock*

      he was being super rude. imagine how weird it would be if he leaned into the face of another man! i think you were totally fine. it’s okay for him to be peeved at you as long as he leaves you alone!

      1. Josie*

        OH SOOOO TRUE! He would NEVER have done that to another man! When men tell me to smile, I just ask them “Would you say that to another man?”

    3. Helpful*

      I think a wan smile and “I’m not feeling well” is all you need in a situation like that, should it arise in the future.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        I don’t think Shep needs to be conciliatory. Their behavior was deeply obnoxious and it’s perfectly fine for her to communicate that. My response to being told two strangers were talking about me would be pretty damn sharp, to say the least.

    4. Camellia*

      Yes, it was a non-sequitur but I wouldn’t worry about it. What I WOULD do is come up with a simple script you can use if you are ever stuck with him/them again, or with others who might do the same thing. Then practice it out loud, over and over. Maybe even remind yourself of it when you are waiting for the elevator, just to have it ready. Even something as simple as “Wow.” along with your deadpan stare, would be quite effective in getting across how unspeakably rude he/they are acting.

    6. Lois Lane*

      I don’t think you were rude at all. Talking ABOUT you is not the same thing as talking TO you. If they had tried to somehow get your attention or speak to you in the first encounter and you ignored them, that might be rude. But they were just talking ABOUT you. Women are conditioned to smile and be accommodating, especially to men, but screw that. You didn’t owe them an iota of your attention, let alone an apology.

      1. amy l*

        Oohh. I think you were polite. I would have definitely been more harsh. I hate rude people. I mean, how about minding your own ‘effing business and stay out of my face. Geez. Manners is a rapidly dying art.

    7. Turtlewings*

      I’m sure it was a slightly baffling comment to his ears, but the least he deserves is a little bafflement after being such a douche to you. Hopefully he’ll be confused enough to lose any desire to talk to you again. You’re under no obligation to perform any particular emotion for Random Elevator Guy; I really wouldn’t worry about it.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      That was all you said?
      You did very well.
      Give your tired mind a rest, let this one go.
      He’s a jerk, you’re fine.

    9. strawberries and raspberries*

      You weren’t out of line in the slightest. I can think of at least three separate times when men antagonized me in elevators and in all of them I either said nothing and ran out or cried. I even yelled at my own dad once for telling a “funny story” in which he called a young woman an “idiot” in the elevator bay because she was looking at her phone and hadn’t pressed the button. Older men need to get out of here with that nonsense.

      1. Tomato Frog*

        Not an elevator, but same deal: I (~3o y/o woman) was sitting on the bus reading on my smart phone when a man (~70 y/o) proceeded to make small talk at me about how people these days are always on their phone. After I made a few noncommittal responses, he said something about how no one talks to each other these days. I looked at him and said, “I rode public transportation before people had cell phones, and people didn’t talk to each other then, either!”

        He tried to laugh it off and said “Oh, really?” in a condescending tone. I said, “Yes, really.” So he started to make conversation with some middle-aged dude on the same topic and left me to read in peace.

    10. Tomato Frog*

      You handled it well! He was being rude and condescending, and you would have been doing yourself a disservice if you had acted more friendly. Let’s break it down:

      Him:
      * Talked about someone in the third person in front of them = textbook rudeness. Bonus rudeness points for his doing it to a stranger!
      * Ignored soft social signals of not wanting to interact (headphones, silence, body language, etc.) = rude
      * Making non-complimentary, personal comments to a stranger = rude! Bonus rudeness points for drawing your attention to the fact that you were being observed, on both occasions (bleah).

      You:
      * Replied politely — if not cheerfully and perhaps a little confusingly — to someone you didn’t want to talk to, who was being rude to you = rather nice of you, under the circumstances.

    11. zora*

      You are NOT OBLIGATED to be super nice and friendly to complete strangers just because you happen to occupy the same space for 2 minutes!!!! If this was someone you work with, or a client or something, I might have tried to find a polite but direct way to point out that it was rude to get in your space when you had headphones on.

      But in this case with a total random stranger, you did the 100% perfect thing for you in the moment. So, feel fine with that and be proud of yourself for taking care of yourself and not doing extra emotional labor for a stranger when you didn’t feel well. You didn’t overreact, don’t even think about this for another second.

      1. AnotherAdmin*

        100% this! I’m not sure why these men thought they were entitled to your attention, but you owed them absolutely nothing. You did the right thing. (And even if you had been feeling fine and were in a good mood, you still would not have been obligated AT ALL to humor them – especially considering how awkward and rude to you they were.)

    13. anonagain*

      You did great. If I were a bystander in that elevator, I’d have left thinking that those men were real creeps and I wouldn’t have thought about your reply at all.

      I actually think your comment about being nauseous wasn’t that confusing or out of the blue. I also think someone who ignores all of the social signals someone is giving and disrespects boundaries the way he did wasn’t really going to care what you said anyway. There was no perfect verbal explanation you could’ve given in that moment that was magically going to make him not a jerk.

      It’s easy to think up things that we could’ve or should’ve said or done after the fact. But a slicker response wouldn’t necessarily have changed the outcome. I think a “perfect” response is sometimes the one that’s available to us that gets the job done. It sounds like that’s how you responded here.

      I’ll also say that I’m a very conflict-averse person who has a hard time standing up for myself. Sometimes when I’m not feeling well and I’m under a lot of stress, my nonsense tolerance is severely diminished and I find the courage to tell off people who need telling off.

      I stress out about it after. I worry that I was too mean. I worry that the words I said sounded stupid or didn’t make sense. But when I tell the people that I trust, they affirm for me that I was completely right to say something. They reassure me that my reaction wasn’t out of proportion and that I wasn’t rude or nasty. Often they are relieved that I stood up for myself.

      I honestly think you did great in a situation that someone else made awkward. I think those men should be the ones replaying the interaction and questioning their behavior.

    14. Keep Your Eyes On The Prize*

      I’d go with, “Sorry, I was trying not to vomit on you.”
      And you were not surly at all, in fact, surprisingly restrained all considered.

  29. Jen RO*

    I wanted to add a small update to a question I posted last week (late in the thread, so not a lot of people saw it). I was looking for guidance on how to handle an underperforming employee who had a miscarriage. I wanted to get some opinions on when I can start addressing her work issues while also being compassionate.

    She ended up being away from the office for two weeks (I told her to WFH after her medical leave ended) and will return next week. I think having work to focus on helped her because the materials she has turned in in the past few days have been decent and she obviously tried to do a good job.

    She is still not doing well mentally and she is seeing a therapist, but she wants to return to work to have something else to focus on. We have talked about her medical situation in detail (more detail than I wanted tbh, but I think she needed someone outside the family to speak to) and of course I allowed her to go to all her appointments even if it meant they were during the workday.

    I have decided to skip any performance discussions for the next couple of weeks and then see how she is. I am hopeful, seeing that her work output seems to have actually improved, which I was not expecting.

    1. Anon for this*

      Thank you. I am currently going through a miscarriage – I have a dead baby inside me that could take weeks to pass naturally – and I am probably averaging about 4 hours of actual work each day. I would not be happy if my boss knew about this and still expected me to work at normal speed.

      I haven’t told my boss and so far no one has noticed I’ve slowed down but it’s only a matter of time.

      3. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I am so very sorry. I hope people are kind and supportive to you during such a difficult time.

      6. Anon for this*

        Thanks all. I’m doing ok. This is my second missed miscarriage so I know the drill. We have two living kids also so I’m trying to find joy spending time with them.

    2. fposte*

      Points for her for improving in a difficult time; I hope she gets to the required standard so you can happily keep her on.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      The one thing you can do is give kudos. Don’t rain down on her with praise, but where you see marked improvement compliment here and there. “That X report came out great. You did a thorough job of collecting up all the figures.” Reinforce the good work for the moment, see where that leads her.

      1. amy l*

        Wow. Shedding tears here. I can not begin to imagine what an incredibly difficult situation that must be. I am so sorry. If I were a supervisor, I would be extra gentle, encouraging and supportive for a couple of months.

    4. Yorick*

      Whether you choose to talk to her soon or not, I think the key is to make the conversation compassionate.

      I’m assuming the poor performance happened before the miscarriage – is it possible that it was due to being pregnant?

      1. Yorick*

        Obviously pregnant women can do their jobs perfectly well, but some don’t figure out how to effectively work around symptoms, etc

        1. Jen RO*

          Nope, the performance issues have been happening from the start (she has been here for over a year). I didn’t notice anything additional when she was pregnant.

  30. bluelyon*

    Can someone give me a reality check or confirm that I’m not wrong in being annoyed by this scenario?
    My office has been physically moving from the outer edge of the VA suburbs closer to DC for the last decade (they move a few towns closer every 3 years or so) we now work right across the river.
    Some of my coworkers take flexible scheduling to what seems like an extreme – they arrive at 6:30 and leave at 3 or 7:00-3:30. I work 8:30 to 5 and I’m the second to last person in the office.
    This is problematic for some of my work because nobody is ever here if I have something in the afternoon. We also work with a lot of people in Texas and California which means that some of them are literally halfway through the day when 85% of our staff leaves.
    I tend to think that flexible scheduling might mean come in at 8:00 or at 9:30 and stay til 4 or 6:30ish – primarily because then you’re here when the rest of the world is at work. Am I just being odd or is the new normal across the board coming in at these early hours?

    1. Just Peachy*

      I don’t think the flex scheduling in itself is odd. I would absolutely prefer to go in early and leave early (I work 7:30-4:30 with an hours lunch, but would definitely switch to something like 6:30-3:30 if I could!). The problem is that it sounds like it is affecting your/others’ abilities to do their jobs.

    2. Laura*

      I think flexible literally means flexible in either direction. It sounds like what you have here is more of a management problem. If coverage is needed later in the day, due to timezone issues, someone should be addressing that.

      1. LCL*

        Yeah, this needs management intervention. It is really common for a group of people to decide to all work the same hours given the choice, which won’t fully meet business needs. Which is why most shiftworker places end up with a written schedule so there will always be coverage when needed. I work 6:30 to 3 and have for years. Hate it. As our metro area grows and traffic becomes worse, I am meeting more people who start early if allowed.

    3. Mockingjay*

      We have flexible scheduling, but with core middle hours that everyone is required to be there. Since your company routinely works with offices in other time zones, you might want to propose using core hours to ensure they can be reached. It also helps with internal meetings and teleconferences – you have set hours each day when everyone is present so you all can get together for discussions.

      I think the extreme early hours are probably traffic avoidance, family scheduling, or something similar. Like you, I come in later – I focus best mid to late afternoon. (My husband, on the other hand, is an extreme early bird. We’re proof that opposites do attract!)

      1. Grad Student*

        I don’t know much about workplace schedule norms, but I do know that the DC suburbs are traffic nightmare central so I bet traffic avoidance is indeed a big factor in these extreme hours.

    4. Murphy*

      If your company needs coverage later in the day, they should have a policy about it. An office I interned at had “core hours” (I think they were 10-3) when you had to be in the office, but outside of that time, you could come and go when you wanted. Sounds like you may need something like that to make sure those later hours get covered.

    5. The Person from the Resume*

      It’s really a case by case basis. If your company needs people there they should set guidelines like core hours or coverage hours for a group of people.

      I don’t find 7:00 – 3:30 extreme in general. I consider 7:30 – 4:00 and 8:00 – 4:30 normal. But as someone in the central time zone working with many east coasters, they often want to start meetings before or just when I arrive, I understand the pain.

      If it’s a problem your company needs to do something about it. If you noticed a problem, you should tell your boss and try to get him to resolve it.

      1. Just Peachy*

        I’ve found that it’s pretty typical for people in the midwest/central time zone to work somewhat “earlier” hours. I leave work at 4:30, which seems to be pretty typical. I don’t really know anyone who works past 5 PM in my area; all of my family/friends leave work at the same time, or even earlier than I do!

    6. paul*

      I wouldn’t inherently consider that unreasonable in a vacuum but it sounds like it’s impacting the ability to provide for clients in different time zones. It’s A-OK to set core hours.

      Also why the heck do they keep moving, yuck. Moving sucks. We’ve relocated in the same town a few times and that was bad enough.

    7. Judy (since 2010)*

      The companies I’ve worked with that had flex time also had core hours. There were defined times that you had to be in the office. Usually 9-3, but at one it was 8-4.

      I personally prefer early hours, because it allows me time to get to kid things in the evenings. At my current job, the earliest I can flex is leaving by 4. When a kid has a game or practice at 5, it’s difficult to drive the 30 minutes home and pick up kid, grab a snack and head back out to the practice.

      1. only acting normal*

        But… 8-4 as ‘core hours’ is just ‘hours’ (in a bog standard office job of ~40 hrs a week).

    8. artgirl*

      I think in the DC area you would be hard-pressed to require people to come in at those hours. A lot of people structure significant elements of their lives–childcare, hobbies, willingness to live a certain distance from their office–around being able to get to work super-early and thus leave early as well.

      1. artgirl*

        hm poor word choice. not hard-pressed but rather, you would be putting yourself at a disadvantage and opening yourself up to morale problems and potentially loss of good employees to make such a big change.

    9. bluelyon*

      The core hours thing is funny – ours are 9-3 so in theory those are met. But, like most people have pointed out that’s only ok in a vacuum where it doesn’t impact our ability to provide services.
      They keep moving closer in because they had trouble attracting talent who was willing to work so far out it required buying a car (lord knows I would not have taken this job based on the most recent location – let alone the ones before it) This was apparently what was offered to make the people who were working there at the time willing to commute into Rosslyn.
      My previous DC jobs have all been ones where things were structured on 8:00 to 9:30 arrival side with sliding departures for things like childcare/commuting etc.

    10. K, Esq.*

      Those hours are totally normal around here. I usually work 10:30 – 7 to avoid traffic. Today I have an afternoon appointment so I came in early. If I leave the house by 5:45 AM, I get to work in 30 minutes. If leave the house by 6:30 AM, I get to work in 60 minutes. If I leave the house by 7:00 AM, I get to work in 75 minutes. So yeah, shifting start time by even half an hour can really make a huge difference in the commute. I’d quit before working at my office 9-5 because spending an extra 80 minutes in the car every day would be torture.

    11. Stormy*

      Starting at 6:30 or 7:00 is totally normal in my last three companies. They dictate “core hours” and as long as you are present within that range, anything goes (as long as it’s consistent).

    12. LadyKelvin*

      I actually think you are off base. If you need coverage for later in the day, then you shouldn’t allow flex time, but we have flex time with core hours (9-3) and probably half the office (me included) works the 6:30-3 schedule. I occasionally have to stay late because we have meetings with colleagues in Japan/Taiwan/Korea but most of the time I’m out by 3 sharp. I think your opinion of flex time being 8-9:30 is really restrictive and mostly a reflection of when you like to work, not when everyone likes to work.

    13. also in dc*

      I also work in DC, and my company has core hours, 9:30 to 2:30. As long as you are here (or accounted for with PTO) during those times, you can work hours as agreed with your manager between 6 am and 6 pm.

      In DC, especially with the new 66 commute, I don’t think 6 or 6:30 am is all that weird, nor is being done early. If you’re bicoastal that’s a company issue and you need company policies around that, but I don’t think your coworkers are being unreasonable or misinterpreting/abusing the flex time policy.

    14. Jake*

      In my industry if you aren’t in by 8 even with flex time, people would assume you weren’t coming in today.

    15. Engineer Girl*

      The core hours are normal. The issue is coverage for Texas and California, who are several hours behind. That’s where you need to make your case.
      I’d certainly raise the issue that you are the only one in the office to deal with California (3 hour difference). It’s a work distribution issue. I would ask for a 1-2 hour shift in the core hours.
      The real issue is that the workers hours don’t match the clients hours.

    16. Mike C.*

      I’m going to take a different direction here and say that you should talk to your manager about needing help, and being specific about what it is you need. Maybe it needs more people, or maybe some process or tool can help you take care of those issues when others leave in the afternoon. Maybe there’s some way to reschedule work or have it pass on to your other offices.

      I just feel like the issue of flex scheduling could be the problem, but that you shouldn’t jump to it right away when there could be other solutions and the curtailing of flex time is going to have serious effects on the personal lives of your coworkers.

    17. Laura H*

      I would think a little bit of this should fall on management… not that I’m suggesting Draconian measures but maybe bring it up and say “A B and C are stalled because there seems to be a lack of coverage-“ or better maybe is “As I do the 8:30-5 “slot”, my work is often hindered because my peers tend to lean for a 7-3:30 “slot” How should I navigate this?”

      in addition as CA is 3 hrs behind, time navigation is gonna be a bit squirrelly. TX is 1 hr behind, and that’s not as cumbersome but can still present challenges.

    18. bluelyon*

      Thank you all! I am not against flex scheduling as a concept – even in the come in earlier aspect, though I totally see how I come off that way, more against the “oh we’ll stay til the end of core hours/just past the end” and just say meh to the 1-2 people left to handle anything else.
      I’ve talked about it a few times with my manager and while she’s run into a lot of the problems I have it’s definitely not changing because the CEO is afraid there will be a riot if we do so. 7:00 onward I can comprehend – but even as an early bird I can’t see how getting to the office at 6:30 is effective, no other offices are open yet.

      TX is definitely less of a problem than CA in terms of time changes but I think some of it is me being sick of explaining that I’m sorry I won’t be able to answer this question major funder because my colleague who works with you is out for the day and so are all the program staff. Which is usually followed by a commentary on ridiculous hours.
      It’s definitely about traffic avoidance, (all I know is they aren’t dealing with the new 66 tolls) I walk or metro so I’m fairly inoculated unless it catches fire.

      Knowing I’m probably more off base is helpful – this is definitely not something that’s going to change regardless of how it impacts my ability to get work done effectively. Lest I sound like a complete crank – the 90 minutes after other people leave when it’s quiet absent their phones ringing is lovely.

      1. Rockhopper*

        We have had a very similar issue where I work, also in the DC area where people really do want to beat the traffic home, with clients that we serve all over the U.S. (even Hawaii). It didn’t affect me as my position rarely gets calls, but certain people get many and most of those people were on the 7:00-3:30 schedule. The one who worked to 5:00 (and often later) was very put out by it and tried to handle all the calls but eventually he was persuaded that the world would not end if some clients had to wait until the next day for a return call and he could ask the receptionist to send all but the most important calls to the appropriate voicemail.

      2. Melissa*

        What about talking to your manager/ floating the idea of remote work vs flex hours? Frame it was a way to provide coverage without “inciting a riot.” Have people WFH in the afternoons, or all day 1-2X/week, and take the 4-6pm EST calls from home. It’s an investment in tech to make that easy, but it’s totoally do-able.

      3. AngelicGamer aka that visually impaired peep*

        I’d be all for giving out the main line to the CEO everytime a big donor calls in for help and nobody but you are around with no way to answer the question. I also don’t suggest taking this advice, mostly because it’s terrible, but some version of it might be a wise idea.

    19. artgirl*

      Are the people in TX and CA under your organization’s umbrella? Could there be better coordination on their part to communicate with your DC office during the hours when most folks are available? They surely don’t call expecting an answer at 5pm Western Time…

      1. bluelyon*

        They aren’t – they’re either our funders, our volunteers or the people we serve but they’re not employees/people we contract with.
        Frankly I think that makes my position of needing more people to be available until 5 pm eastern available stronger. Because while they don’t expect an answer at 5pm western (they’re fairly reasonable) they do expect one from noon to 2.

    20. Windchime*

      I recently just switched my hours due to a horrible commute (Seattle area). I now arrive at work between 6 and 6:15 AM, and leave around 2:30. I’m not the earliest person in; there are several who arrive before me. By shifting my schedule, I’m gaining back almost 2 hours that I would otherwise be spending sitting in gridlock.

      Having said that, I agree with others that it sounds like management needs to put something in place where there are a few more people there during core hours.

  31. GigglyPuff*

    So I got a second interview with the job out of state, now I get to go there in person!

    I’m nervous and excited and worried. After the phone interview it honestly made me want it even more because it includes a variety of tasks not necessary related to just my main job. I currently work in state govt. so I’m very limited in want I can do to help and tasks outside my strict job description, and I really want something that will help me branch out.

    So kind of a stupid question, you can carry on hanging clothes to airlines still, right? All of my in person interviews I’ve driven to them, this is the first time I would fly.

    1. medium of ballpoint*

      I haven’t seen anyone do this in ages, so I don’t know if you can. Usually I’ll just pack my interview clothes and iron them at the hotel.

      1. AJ*

        I agree. I’ve never seen anyone in an airport/airplane with a garmet bag. I’d say don’t count on flight attendants letting you use their closet – I can see why they offered for a wedding dress, but there’s just too many contingencies to count on this kindness. If you are able to get space to lay your bag on top of other people’s suitcases in the overhead compartment, chances are it will have to be squeezed or will slide around. I’d say practice packing your suitcase to best work for the clothes and count on ironing when you get there. Traveling is already stressful enough. Good luck on the interview!

    2. D.W.*

      You can bring clothes on hangers, sometimes the cabin crew will let you hang it in their closet if there is space. They let me hang my wedding dress. A garment bag might be useful as well, that way your clothes will be hung, but you can also lay it in the overhead space in case the closet is not available.

      Congratulations on the second interview!

    3. Jayne*

      I believe that it is airline dependent. Back in the olden days, there was a small closet that garment bags could hang, but that may have gone the way of the comfortable airline seat. My remembrance recently is that you can take a garment bag and deal with whatever creases you get in your suit by having it doubled over during the time that you are in the plane.

    4. DDJ*

      The most recent flight I was on, there was someone who laid their garment bag over everyone else’s bags in the overhead bins, and no one seemed to mind. Maybe that’s an option?

    5. Engineer Girl*

      Most airlines now charge fees for checked bags. That means the overhead bins are stuffed to the gills. Many times there isn’t enough room in the overheads and the airlines end up checking the carry on bags. It’s that bad. I’ve given up even on carry on sized bags – I now travel with only an under seat bag. That way I know my bag will be with me in the cabin.
      There are several YouTube videos showing how to pack a suit in a carry on bag. When you get to your hotel you may want to steam your suit. Hang it up in the bath and turn on the hot water in the shower.

  32. Pickle*

    How would you approach a situation where an employee got a 5% increase when they became a supervisor but with an organizational restructuring (nothing to do with their performance) they weren’t going to be a supervisor anymore. Do they lose the 5%? I say they keep it, but am meeting resistance from upper management.

    1. Just Peachy*

      They should definitely be able to keep the increase. Unless the restructuring to where this person is being moved “down” from a manager position is a direct result of something they did wrong, they shouldn’t be punished by the restructuring.

    2. Kate*

      If their pay + 5% is within the range of what employees in their new role make, I’d let them keep the 5%. A demotion is already a big morale hit. If their pay is cut, as well, they’re going to be gone soon. And unless the org’s really really tight financially, 5% should not make or break the budget.

    3. CatCat*

      Is it worth 5% of the employee’s pay to lose the employee and have to recruit another one? Also worth any damage to morale?

    4. Engineer Girl*

      Most companies let them keep the increase but they stop getting raises until their salary aligns with the new job salary.

    5. Mike C.*

      If it were a much large pay increase, I’d say only if they’re still doing the role they should keep it. But 5%? Come on, that’s what some people get year over year.

      Furthermore, your company needs to stop restructing orgs such that folks lose their promotions. That’s the real issue here. That’s a serious d!ck move.

  33. The New Wanderer*

    I’ve been asked to write a proposal for some short term consulting work for a small company (50 or so people). Ideally it will lead to a longer contract with this company – they’ve told me they would love more work but funding is iffy so short term is a better guarantee for now. I’m not competing with anyone else, but I’ve never written a proposal for just me, or for a small scale project. I’ve looked online at tips for how to set a rate but most tips are things like “find out the market rate and charge within that range” which is great, if you have any idea what the market range is!

    The other thing is, they’re currently working with a consulting firm that does similar things to what I’m proposing, but the relationship is challenging because the firm is 3000 miles away so all their work is done remotely. Since I could work onsite, that’s a pretty big benefit.

    TL;DR: Any advice for a newbie freelance consultant writing a proposal?

    1. AnotherWomanEngineer*

      Do you have an idea of what you want your hourly rate to be or what it should be?
      Maybe this would help?
      https://www.forbes.com/sites/abdullahimuhammed/2017/05/19/a-5-step-guide-to-setting-your-freelance-rates-perfectly/
      Proposal rates for my company have anywhere from a 2-3 multiplier – to account for overhead, fringe and profit. So let’s say my salary works out to $35/hr when I generate a proposal based on how many hours I estimate to do the work I use a rate of $105. Also clearly state your scope and define interim client review/submittals and rework. You may also want to define #or hours of meeting you will attend. Not sure your industry but For me that’s what can cause you to lose $. So I write stuff like ‘owner/client directed changes After 75% (?) will require an additional service fee (signed) to proceed.’ ‘Will attend up to 4 team meetingns’ That all applies for fixed fee type work, but there is hourly or hourly estimated… again really depends on what kind of work.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Thanks! I had seen that article and a few others that were similar. I’ll be working with my contact at the company to refine the proposal, but he wants a draft up front. It’s for a tech company and I do a kind of specialized engineering-type assessment. I don’t want to set my rate too low or too high but I might be able to get him to give me a sense of what is reasonable and see how it aligns with my ‘floor’ rate.

        Good point on the meetings, I hadn’t really thought about that. The recommendations have been for hourly rates over a fixed-price package when starting out, but that advice seems to be aimed at people making a career of freelancing and this might be a one-off for me, I don’t know.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          My friend bid a job at 40k. Before it was over he had well over 90k in labor in the job. It was a nightmare. Part of the problem is things always take longer than we think because of unforeseens. And that is why the advice about hourly pay is given so much.

    2. LKW*

      Confirm the scope of work and your understanding of their objective(s)
      Provide an overview of how you’ll approach the work
      What you need from the client in terms of availability, participation in meetings and sessions, and the types of resources you need (IT, area of expertise, etc.)
      Timeline, effort in day or hours especially if you are not working full time.
      Proposed deliverables –
      Any credentials that you can share highlighting relevant prior experience

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Thanks for the outline! I definitely need to confirm the project scope. I got a general sense from my contact, but not the details yet. He’ll be helping me refine the proposal, so I’ll take a stab at describing the work I think they want done and go from there.
        Timeline is another one that’s tricky – at the moment, I honestly don’t know if this would take me three days or three weeks, which is a huge swing in potential pricing. When I’ve written up timelines for work before, I had to add so much padding due to side work, delays beyond my control, budget cuts, etc. Without all that overhead, I don’t know how long real work takes!

        1. LKW*

          In that case you can outline the estimated effort and note that the timeline is dependent on the client and assumes x% of their availability and responsiveness. So if you assume you need them at minimum 10 hours a week and someone plans a vacation or has a conference you may have to push the timeline out.

          It’s a proposal – not a contract. During the contracting phase you would put more assumptions of availability and dedication down.

  34. Jennifer J.*

    Has anyone had any experiences with using a career counselor that they’d be willing to share?

    I’ve spent my twenties bouncing from job to job without finding anything that feels like a good fit. Going to undergrad and then graduating during the recession made a big impact on my decisions, too – I didn’t feel like I could pursue the careers that most interested me because 1) a lot of them were in creative industries where you were expected to do a series of unpaid internships, and I couldn’t afford that, and 2) I felt pressure to take the “safe” jobs that were less fulfilling, but that gave me the security of knowing I’d be able to pay my rent and have health insurance.

    Now that I’m staring down 30, I feel like I need to start making more intentional (and perhaps riskier) choices or I’ll be stuck being unhappy at work for the rest of my life. I’ve started investigating career counselors in my area, and I’m curious to know if anyone has found them to be helpful for this kind of career exploration/transition stuff. Thanks!

    1. Kate*

      I’ve never seen a career counselor myself, but want to put in a plug for checking with your alumni association. Mine offers free first-come, first-serve career counseling sessions periodically (phone or in-person). They also keep a list of recommended career counselors who offer alumni discounts.

    2. Heather*

      Ooh, you sound just like me, except I just hit 40, if that makes you feel any better ;)

      I used a career coach once, but she was really focused on mind maps, “where do you see yourself in 20 years” exercises (if I knew that, I wouldn’t need you, now would I?), and other stuff that I’m sure is helpful to many people, but just didn’t mesh well with the way my brain works. It was freaking expensive, too. I did end up getting a new job, but it wasn’t because of anything I learned from her.

      Has anyone here booked a coach through The Muse? I recently discovered that they offer packages with career coaches that are more reasonable, but they don’t seem to offer the usual free initial convo to let you figure out whether it’s a good fit before committing. I don’t want to pay a few hundred bucks up front only to get more mind mapping exercises! I’ve Googled the coaches I found interesting, but I’m still hesitant to jump in.

    3. Jennifer*

      I would say that no, they weren’t helpful. Career counselors are better if you know what you want, not if you’re just vague and unsure. I got much better results from “Help me with my resume/cover letter.”

    4. DDJ*

      I have a friend who used a “life coach” which included career counseling, and it totally changed her life. When she was telling me about it, she said “I know it sounds hippy dippy and it’s not the kind of thing I’d normally do, but I needed to do SOMETHING and honestly? I’m so glad I did.”

      She’s self-employed now, and doing phenomenally. She left a super toxic job (like, she had to send a cease and desist because the owner of the company was slandering her to colleagues in their industry), and seeing the coach really gave her the boost she needed.

      I’ve personally started to consider seeing someone, just because I’m not sure if my plan to “just work at a job, doesn’t matter if you enjoy it as long as it pays the bills” is the best plan anymore.

    5. OtterB*

      There’s a range of things that goes under the umbrella of “career counseling.” Some time ago I worked for an organization that did career counseling. (I wasn’t a counselor; I was in the back room with the computers.) They would do a thorough assessment process and then discuss the results and what it suggested about roles you would be more or less of a good fit to. There were options for arranging more visits if you wanted more detailed help in implementing a change. The original model was that it was for high school / college students, but we got a lot of career changers. People seemed to find it helpful.

    6. Frustrated Optimist*

      I’d say that finding a career counselor that you “jell” with can be as hit-or-miss as any other type of counselor you might see…!

      As at least one other commenter noted, it can be expensive. My only recommendation would be to have at least one session to see how you like the career counselor before agreeing to any career inventories or assessments. Those can be pricy, and you don’t want to pay for that if it’s not a career counselor you’d ever return to.

    7. Tipcat*

      I have used a career counselor twice. Like you, I was bouncing around.

      The first time, I was in a small city that did not seem to have anyone who did only that. I went to a psychologist that advertized that she did that among other things. She said that it was not necessary for adults to take any kind of test. I talked to her 3 or 4 times about the things that I might be interested in. Then she gave me my results–she parroted back what I had said to her. Total rip off.

      A few years later, I was still bouncing around but in a much larger city. I found a guy with an Ed.D. who did only career counseling. I told him the story of my first attempt and he agreed that it was a rip. He said that adults do need an assessment test. I don’t remember what it was (not myers briggs). First he gave me the results in the form of personality traits (not the big 5). What he told me corresponded fairly well with the way I saw myself. For example, he would say that on the XY continuum, you are very strongly X. I’d say ‘Wow, I knew that I am sort of X-ish, but extremely?’ He’d reply something like ‘Yeah, 9th decile.’ So like I said, consistent with the way I saw myself, but some new information. I trusted the results.

      Next he presented the results of the test in terms of what kinds of jobs and fields I would like. He said that I would like an SEM job (rather than management) and in finance, engineeringor hard science.

      1. Tipcat*

        Sorry, having problems with the system.

        To continue: It also suggested sculpting. The problem with the suggestions was that there was not about what I realistically could do. I talked to him for 2 or 3 hour-long sessions about narrowing down what to pursue. I also did a lot of reading and talked to some professors at the local university. (Several of the professors made it clear that I was wasting their time.) The career counselor was sort of coordinating all of this. in the end, this worked for me.

        Once I had made that decision, I also had to cost it out. That is, How will I be able to pay for it? Savings? Loans? What is the payback period? He did not help with this, but I had enough business background that I was able to do that myself. Also I was also talking to a therapist about my parent’s objections to what I was doing.When I mentioned worrying about the length of the payback period, she had NO IDEA what I was talking about. ‘If it’s what you want to do, just go for it.’ I ignored her. (So again, a ‘counselor’ giving bad advice.)

        When it was all over, I had enough confidence in my decision to go back to school for a degree that my new field required. And I lived happily ever after.

        TL;DR There was no one-stop shop for this. It worked, but I had to go to half a dozen different sources and sort out who could give good advice about what.

        Good luck.

      2. Tipcat*

        Sorry, having problems with the system.

        To continue: It also suggested sculpting. The problem with the suggestions was that there was not about what I realistically could do. I talked to him for 2 or 3 hour-long sessions about narrowing down what to pursue. I also did a lot of reading and talked to some professors at the local university. (Several of the professors made it clear that I was wasting their time.) The career counselor was sort of coordinating all of this. in the end, this worked for me.

        Once I had made that decision, I also had to cost it out. That is, How will I be able to pay for it? Savings? Loans? What is the payback period? He did not help with this, but I had enough business background that I was able to do that myself. Also I was also talking to a therapist about my parent’s objections to what I was doing.When I mentioned worrying about the length of the payback period, she had NO IDEA what I was talking about. ‘If it’s what you want to do, just go for it.’ I ignored her. (So again, a ‘counselor’ giving bad advice.)

        When it was all over, I had enough confidence in my decision to go back to school for a degree that my new field required. And I lived happily ever after.

        Also find out exactly what the career counselor’s fee covers–test ony? x number of additional sessions?\
        TL;DR There was no one-stop shop for this. It worked, but I had to go to half a dozen different sources and sort out who could give good advice about what.

        Good luck.

        1. Chocolate Teapot*

          I have talked about my career coach on here before, and how it is important to make sure you can work with them, and also about their qualifications and experience. I am very happy with mine, but I know some posters here have not had such good experiences.

  35. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    Emailing a job candidate for an open position elsewhere in the org when I don’t actually know his odds of actually getting that position: good or bad idea? He’s very smart, just not quite a fit for the role I’m hiring for, and I have an internal candidate who I plan to move forward with. I think he’d be a good culture fit for this other team, but I’m not sure how well he fits the hiring manager’s vision for the open position, even though he’s on-paper qualified. Do I encourage him to apply and just make it clear that I have no input on the actual process but think he should go for it?

    1. Anon librarian*

      Pass his application onto the hiring manager and say you think he might be a better fit on that team but not contact the candidate directly.

      1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        Thank you! He’d have to apply to the position separately to be considered, so it might make sense to forward his resume/CL to the hiring manager and tell her that if he seems viable, I’d be willing to reach out to direct him to the posting.

      2. Alice*

        I think this is a great idea.
        Years ago I was the employee in a similar situation, one of two finalists who did on-site interviews. Hiring manager #1 hired the other candidate and strongly encouraged me to apply for another opening — one that I’d considered, but passed up, because I didn’t have the years of experience they asked for. I never got anything from hiring manager #2 — not a rejection, not even confirmation that they’d received my application.
        I run into both these people all the time, and I always remember, “hey, you’re the people who ignored me.” Which is illogical — why should hiring manager #1 get blamed? He actually took time to give me substantive feedback, as well as the encouragement to apply for the second position. But emotionally it was an unsatisfactory ending to the interview process and it comes to mind every time we meet up.
        Had #1 gone to #2 instead of bringing it up with me, #2 would presumably have said no, and I would never have known about it. My last memory of #1 would be the thoughtful interview feedback instead of the ghosting.
        Poor #1. No good deed goes unpunished.

    2. fposte*

      It took me a second to unpack–you mean you think he might be a good fit for the vacancy that will arise as a result of your hiring your new person? Yeah, I think you can totally contact him about that. “I wanted to let you know this opening is happening; I have no control over its hiring, but I thought your skills might be a fit and that you might wish to apply.”

      1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        Sorry if I was unclear – the open position is not in my department. Same type of work, different division. I would probably move forward with him if I didn’t have another strong candidate. I’ll give him a heads up that the position is posted and he might be interested. Thanks!

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I just read fast and got a little lost in the chain. We do that regularly here for some kinds of applications, and we also go the other way and tell hiring managers if we got an applicant who’d be really good for them.

  36. Anon here again*

    I sit facing the wall at work at my new job. When people walk by, they only address the people facing them. (Some of us face the wall, while others face the aisle.) Is this normal?

    1. RG*

      I understand why it feels isolating, but I think it’s normal. I feel weird not saying hi to me when I see people see me, but I also feel weird interrupting people who don’t look up/at me when I walk by.

    2. bluelyon*

      I think it’s probably normal – Our office is split, half the people face away from the aisle/hallway area half don’t. People don’t tend to talk to everyone when they walk by but they’re more likely to talk to people with whom they make eye contact by accident. Those facing the wall aren’t generally making eye contact.

    3. willow*

      It sounds like an open floor plan, and there is really no need for the passers-by to address anyone. It’s an interruption to their train of thought. I face the hallway to the restrooms, and if everyone engaged my attention as they walked by, I would get less than nothing done.

  37. Snark*

    So, last Friday afternoon, all my fears about my contract came true, and it looks like I and everybody who works for me turn into a pumpkin at the end of May. This is an eventuality which sucks. I am now working hard to avoid it.

    Typically, in this kind of situation, I’d be a freaked-out stressball. Weirdly enough, I’m not feeling it. I’m super concerned, and very much so for my people, but I’m not shitting myself with fear that I’m going to be unemployed. There’s a few different possibilities I’m aggressively pursuing that could keep me in this job a while longer or find a new one, and they seem sufficiently promising that I’ve only woken up at 4am with my heart pounding a couple times. And my clients and colleagues are bending over backwards to help, which is great.

      1. Snark*

        Thanks. I really appreciate it. It’s sort of part of the terrain of being a contractor on a single contract, unfortunately.

    3. Overeducated*

      Oh no! I’m glad you have options, and hope a good one works out, but that’s not a fun position to be in.

  38. Anon for this*

    Anyone have any advice for navigating an office/making worklife easier on crutches? I recently broke my leg and am on crutches for a few months. I’d appreciate advice any tips people have for making desk life easier and also on how to ask my coworkers for help with carrying things and the like without driving them insane.

    Thanks!

    1. Amber O.*

      This sucks! I was on crutches and in a wheelchair for about 6 months after blowing out my knee and having surgery. I would invest in a crutch bag that attaches to the handle of your crutch, which will allow you to carry small items like your phone, badge, pills, etc. They sell them on etsy, or you can make one if you’re crafty! My crutch bag was a lifesaver and gave me a lot more independence. I also used a small backpack to carry a notebook or laptop to/from meetings if someone wasn’t there to help carry my things. Most people were really kind and would offer to help me before I asked, but I was straight forward about it when I needed the accommodation. Hopefully your coworkers are the same way. Good luck!

      1. Amber O.*

        Also a quick note- I don’t know if the area you live in has ice/snow, but if it does PLEASE be careful while walking to and from your car (especially on work owned property). Crutches can slip very easily and you can come crashing down on your bad leg- ask me how I know. All it took was a small spot of water on a sidewalk and 30 degree temperatures.

        1. Anon for this*

          Thank you! I’m in New York City, which means I’m outside/on sidewalks a lot, unfortunately. I’ll also look into a crutch bag.

          1. Natalie*

            I wonder if they make any sort of attachable crampon, like YakTrax but for crutches. Probably worth the investment given how much winter walking you’ll be doing.

          2. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

            You have all of my sympathy. I was on crutches for about 6 weeks from late winter to early spring, in NYC, and I do not wish that on anyone (except for the guy who tried to steal a cab from me while I was on said crutches, in the rain – it was absolutely deliberate and I was ready to stand my ground with one crutch and whack him with the other if he hadn’t backed down).

            The only two pieces of advices I can offer:
            1.) Buses were easier to manage than the subway (unless you can cab it – unfortunately I was in a horribly toxic situation with awful insurance and an even awfuler boss who paid ridiculously low and told me I’d need to take unpaid time off if I couldn’t perform my job as required – this was after I asked him if he could pick up his own printing rather than having me try to carry it to him. The office was tiny.)

            2.) I had a boss at a different office that was on crutches for awhile. He used the crutches to get to/from work and then kept one of those knee scooters at the office. He got around very quickly on the knee scooter. I don’t know if that’s an option for you with the nature of your injury, but if it is, he was able to move around the office very easily and he had a little basket on his knee scooter to throw things in.

            Beyond those – just know that any one with a shred of decency will be more than willing to help you out.

            1. Anon for this*

              Thank you for the advice. I’m incredibly lucky to have a job that’s pretty willing to let me work remotely part of the week, which has made a huge difference. And I’m definitely getting to know the bus routes better. I can take the occasional cab, but I’ll be on crutches for months, so it’s not a sustainable solution. And you’re right, the subways are awful for accessibility! It’s really disgraceful.

      2. Landshark*

        +1 to the backpack and crutch bags. Also, definitely shoot for being on an outside desk. It reduces the risk of your crutches catching on other people’s things.

        Also, regarding desk life in general, it might help to get either an extra chair or a small footstool to prop your leg up with. I know when I threw out my ankle last year and was on a cane for a few weeks, having an extra spot to prop the leg up really helped me not be in pain while I was working.

    2. AnnaleighUK*

      Yes. I’ve done this several times (I need a less dangerous hobby).

      – Ask for a desk on the end of a row, or at least with ample space around you so you can move around okay and without accidentally harming colleagues with a misplaced crutch.
      – Just ask for help if you need it. You’re broken, you need assistance, and if they refuse, they’re bad people. They can see you’re hurt, and should offer accordingly.
      – If you’re in a cast currently, ask your doctor for one of those support bootie things asap to get the cast off. Life gets easier when you have one of those. And incidentally rulers are great for scratching under-cast itchy spots.

      Milk the sympathy as much as you can. I’m recovering from some minor injuries at the moment and I’m basically okay but my direct report keeps asking me if I need help with carrying or whatnot – I say no, but she keeps saying ‘well if you’re sure…’ Most co-workers are fine with helping those in need. Just be wary of tripping them when you’re navigating the office!

      Get well soon!

    3. Temperance*

      Oh, that stinks!

      I was in a boot for a month a while ago, and in my experience, people want to help you and aren’t going to feel put out. Trust me, what I heard from friends is that people would rather help carry your crap than be in a boot like you.

      The best practical tip I can give you is that an exercise ball is a very comfortable place to rest your leg. Are you in a boot or a cast? If you’re in a boot, I highly recommend picking up Leggings Depot leggings on Amazon. The velcro on your boot will destroy tights, and these leggings are ultra cheap and ultra soft.

      1. Anon for this*

        It’s the top of my tibia, so I’m in a knee brace, which is really lucky because I can wear jeans. I hadn’t thought about leggings, though, which would give me back the option of skirts back! I’ll definitely try the exercise ball.

        1. Temperance*

          Awesome! The softness of the leggings definitely made it a little better. I had a problem with jeans because the brace kept pulling them down, so I had to constantly adjust.

    4. Mike C.*

      I see folks with these medical push scooters instead of crutches. It’s like a Razor type scooter, but instead of placing your foot down, the platform is raised to about knee level, it’s got a ton of padding and you kneel on it instead. It’s way, way more stable than crutches, and you could easily attach a bag to it.

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        I had a boss that was using one of those around the office for awhile (mentioned it above). We actually (half jokingly) got a little bell for his. We had a couple of long narrow hallways and he kept zooming up behind people and scaring them!

        I would 100% absolutely invest in one of those if I’m ever on crutches or have foot/ankle/lower leg issues again.

      2. DrWombat*

        Seconding the scooter suggestion – those seem really good if you can bend your knee, and no risk of shoulder issues as a result (I can’t use crutches for that reason – they aggravate an old shoulder injury, so when I messed up my knee I was in a wheelchair till it healed) Best of luck for a swift recovery!

      3. Windchime*

        I was on a knee scooter for 6 weeks after ankle surgery and it was a godsend. Getting around in the office was a breeze; getting back and forth to work was a different issue since I couldn’t drive (it was my right ankle). I have a two-story house, so I actually rented two scooters. One would get parked at the bottom of the stairs and I would crawl up (with my backpack), and then hop onto my upstairs scooter, which was parked at the top of the stairs.

        I tried using crutches but almost fell off the front porch. I’m not good with crutches.

    5. Garland Not Andrews*

      What a bummer! All the advise is really good. I’d add a water cup/glass with a sealing lid. That way you can slide it into your crutch bag and it does not spill.
      Back in the late 80’s when I broke my leg, I used a Tupperware cup with lid.

    6. Anon for this*

      Thank you all! Unfortunately, I can’t take the knee scooter suggestion, since it’s the top of my tibia that’s broken (basically my knee), but I’ve ordered a crutch bag and non-slip crutch tips and hopefully that will be a good start. I’m also going to work on getting over feeling bad asking for help :)

    7. Pam*

      I’m currently very limited in mobility. I can walk short distances, but have had the most success using a wheelchair as my office chair.

    8. Merecurly*

      Not much advice other than to ask for parking and possibly seating accommodations near a bathroom. The crutch bag sounds like a great idea as well. There are usually coworkers more than willing to help you out. Maybe stock some snacks and stuff in your desk that you may otherwise get up to get? I’d also recommend finding a place under your desk to prop your leg up…the swelling comes on fast when you’re sitting in one place for too long.l!
      Good luck and hope your recovery is swift!

      My office crutches story: I broke my heel bone and a few other bones in my foot when I was 8 months pregnant and was required to be completely non-weight bearing for 12 weeks. So… not only was that a complete disaster in balance and coordination (picture an elephant on stilts), my job declined my request for parking close to the entrance and a request to temporarily relocate to an empty cubicle near the restroom (it was a really long building and the restrooms were on opposite end of my cubicle area and pregnant people only have to pee 75 days a day, give or take).

      So….my doctor ordered me a wheelchair to use. I was 2 days in to that when a colleague offered to help push me to a meeting being held in our company park/arboretum adjacent to our building. Well, she ended up rolling the chair too fast over an uneven seam in the sidewalk, and I ended up being dumped out of chair on to the sidewalk in front of the new CEO and everyone in the division of the company. (Totally not her fault…she was probably more mortified than I was).

      I mostly laughed it off but… it ended up being more awkward because no one acknowledged it at all until several hours later, telling me I could have a 0.5 hour paid time to go to the OBGYN if I felt like it was warranted.

      Needless to say I ended up taking early maternity leave immediately following that. The place was kind of bonkers in a number of other ways… sometimes I still find myself downright filled with glee that I no longer work there….

    9. BatteryB*

      If you have any key pad locked doors at work, see if they can be programmed to add a few more seconds before they relock. When I broke my ankle several years ago, I couldn’t get to the door fast enough after I entered my code on the key pad. Facilities was able to program the doors so that I had extra time to maneuver from the key pad to the door before it locked.

  39. DCGirl*

    I’m the poster who has previously talked about my company’s move in early December to a very noisy, highly designed open office. It’s the one where the CEO won’t allow coat racks so you can either hang your coat on the back of the chair and roll over the hem all day or leave it in your car.

    In 2004 I was diagnosed with attention problems, and I was really having a hard time with the noise and distractions. Because my neuro-psychological testing was done so long ago, I made the decision to have it redone in order to request a reasonable accommodation. The testing cost $3,000 and was not covered by insurance. I received the results of the testing, which diagnosed a non-verbal learning disorder and severe anxiety, about two weeks ago and immediately submitted my request for a reasonable accommodation the next day to Cigna, which manages the process for my employer.

    Guess what? I was laid off yesterday morning and immediately escorted out of the building. It was part of a round of company-wide layoffs as, so I was told, the company has over expanded in terms of facilities and staffing but doesn’t have the business to support it. My team of 12 people lost two positions, me and another woman – who is pregnant.

    So, let’s recap. Out of 12 people on my team, the two people who were selected for layoff were 1) the woman who’d just asked for a reasonable accommodation and 2) the woman who’d just told management that she’s pregnant. My supervisor was very careful to read from a prepared script to say that my requested accommodations were all reasonable and would have been provided had I not been selected for layoff.

    I’m sure you all understand why I don’t think that this passes the smell test. I’ll be consulting an attorney next week. In the meantime, I’m 60 years old, don’t function well in the open offices that are the wave of the present and future, and was the primary breadwinner for my family. At least our health insurance is with my husband’s job. (That’s the tradeoff we made – he earns significantly less as a government employee than he would in private industry, but gets great health insurance.)

    It took me over a year to find this job, and I was employed at my previous job while looking. I am genuinely scared about how long it’s going to take to find a job this time.

    7. Tea, please*

      I was laid off the week after I told an employer I was pregnant. The prospect of interviewing while pregnant and worrying if I’d be able to take maternity leave I’d get was overwhelming. If you are in the place to do this, please let her know what steps you are taking and easy/concrete ways for her to join your complaint. I wish I had filed a complaint, but I decided to focus on finding a job while I could still qualify for (unpaid) leave (in my state you had to work for an employer for two months.

  40. Amber O.*

    How unprofessional is it to sit at my desk with my legs crossed on my chair and feet underneath me? I’ve been dealing with a serious knee injury for the last three years, and if I don’t change my seating position every 30-40 minutes, my foot will go numb from the constant inflammation. I obviously cross my ankles and use a footrest, but I find myself sitting that way some days without thinking and began to wonder if other’s might have a problem with it. I always wear pants and have a private cube, but what do others think?

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I don’t think it’s bad. Right now, I’m sitting with one leg curled under me.

      Unless someone is crawling under my desk, they can’t see how I’m sitting. (Which, if someone is crawling on the floor of my cube there’s far bigger issues going on………..)

      1. Amber O.*

        I do that one all the time too! It’s just a lot more comfortable than sitting with both feet on the floor. No one has ever said anything about it and our department is fairly laid back, but now I’m a little paranoid.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          My feet don’t even get anywhere near the ground. I have a foot rest but….meh. It’s uncomfortable. So I figure changing my sitting position is preferable to swinging my legs like a toddler. (Which, full disclosure, sometimes I do because it’s fun.)

          1. Amber O.*

            Oh the few perks of being short! 5″ here, and my chair is all the way at the lowest setting, but my heels don’t even touch the ground…

            1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

              Indeed!

              Because of how our desks are set up, my chair can’t be on the lowest setting. Otherwise my hands will be at my ears. If I point my feet all the way, I can get the toes of my shoes to touch.

    2. Murphy*

      I hope it’s not because I do it all the time!

      The only comments I ever get about it are from older women who say things like “I used to do that when I was younger, but I couldn’t do that now!” It’s happened more than once. Kind of strange, but not unfriendly.

      1. Amber O.*

        Now that you mention it, I do realize that I’m one of the youngest people in the department…. Maybe that could be why I don’t see others doing it!

    4. fposte*

      It is slightly unprofessional, but I also think it’s a necessity for a lot of us short folks. I go to feet on the ground when I have to talk to somebody.

    5. hermit crab*

      I sit like that a lot too. I consider it one of the perks of working in a fairly casual office, that I don’t have to care about having perfectly professional sitting posture.

    6. bohtie*

      I do this, because I’m five feet tall and my feet don’t reach the floor in most chairs! I feel like it may look a little bit casual, but my office also isn’t super formal.

    7. LCL*

      I think it looks completely childish but I have too much to do to patrol the appearance of my coworkers. I would never say anything to someone who does this, unless they specifically asked me how they could be taken more seriously. If someone was teasing you about this I would tell them to stop.

      1. Amber O.*

        Oh no, no one has ever said anything. I just realized that it probably does look childish (I’m 26 and 5″ tall, so it doesn’t take much), and I wanted to know how it might come across to others. I had an office in my last job so I had a LOT more privacy than I do now, and that’s where the habit started. If people come to my cube now I’ll sit up and put my feet on the floor, but I do appreciate the candidness!

    9. Epsilon Delta*

      I do this all the time. I used to be all stealthy about it. Now I don’t care anymore and just do it.

  41. Alpha Bravo*

    After last Friday’s bad boss comeuppance story, something a little lighter. In last week’s installment, Exboss who terminated me shortly after my husband’s death and a week before Christmas asked me to come back to work and I declined. I believe in the organization and I have a hard time seeing my former coworkers struggle, but it would be insane to trust Exboss ever again. Exboss Jr. (assistant director) is a different story. He was always fair and as transparent with me as he was able to be. I know he trusted and relied on me. But in this org, all personnel actions are handled by the director.

    I didn’t know what Exboss Jr. had been told about any of this, and after thinking it over I decided he deserved to know. Monday I emailed informing him I’d declined Exboss’s job offer and why. I starkly stated the facts around my termination, concluding that coming back to work for Exboss would not be in my best interest. I wished Exboss Jr. and the org well and closed with “If at some point down the road you find you need someone with my skill set, I hope you’ll think of me.” He is the heir apparent so this is a possibility.

    He replied to my email, stating the job offer was genuine and the job permanent and still available but I’d need to let them know as they are moving quickly. I started to answer and realized he had put Exboss – AND EXGRANDBOSS – on copy for the chain.

    I walked away for a bit. Then I came back and hit “reply all.” I thanked him for the info and reiterated that I didn’t think it would be in my best interest to come back to work for Exboss, but that Exboss Jr. had always been fair and honest with me, and I’d come back to work for him in a heartbeat. And hit “send.”

    I’m REALLY glad this guy is there for my former coworkers. Though he can’t do much now, Exboss IS going to retire at some point, and then this is going to be a great place to work.

    2. Alli525*

      I’m SO glad for you that XBox Jr (that was a typo but I’m keeping it because it made me giggle) looped in GrandXBox on that email chain – what a perfect opportunity for you to make yourself heard!

  42. and Peggy*

    My female supervisor joked to me that “girls are crazy” and I didn’t laugh, just told her that I thought that comment was unnecessary. She complained to my coworker (her only other report) that I’ve been copping an attitude with her.

    I mean, I also disagreed with her when she wanted me to put cardboard boxes in the conference rooms for storage space (we have plenty of closets) and told her that her saying “that’s not a girl, she looks like a boy” about a small child on the TV screen was also an unnecessary comment, but, you know.

    This is really just one of many things and I’m getting extremely frustrated with her. How do I cope? Do I just need to calm down?

    1. Millennial Lawyer*

      I see where you’re coming from, and I appreciate you want to say something when there’s sexist comments/microaggressions going on. But this is your supervisor, and saying “I don’t think that comment is necessary” sound reeeeeeally aggressive to be talking to your supervisor like that – you do not police what comments are “necessary” from your supervisor. I would just respond with a less aggressive way of trying to say the same thing: “I don’t think girls are crazy at all!” Or “Oh really? I think she looks like a girl.” in a polite tone. Or just ignore it!

      As for the cardboard box thing, it’s one thing to suggest “What about putting them in the closet? That might save a lot of room.” But if she says, “no I’d really like them in the conference room.” Then you put them in the conference room – your supervisor made an executive decision.

      I’d love to hear other AAMers take on this, but I think for your job protection you have to change your tone with your supervisor. If it was a colleague on your level it wouldn’t matter as much.

      1. and Peggy*

        I really appreciate the verbiage on the less aggressive stuff–I soften my language when I’m talking to coworkers, but for some reason I just can’t do it with her, so this helps. The conference room situation is complicated because (as I replied to fposte below) they are my responsibility–but not one that I report to her on. Another person I report to checks them, and she and my supervisor dislike each other, so they tend to skirt around communicating with each other and talk to me instead. They’ve butted heads about conference rooms before. My supervisor ended up throwing the boxes away along with some other stuff on my desk, so that situation resolved itself.

        1. Millennial Lawyer*

          That situation stinks! When you’re caught in the cross hairs like that.

          I suppose in the cardboard box situation I would make my suggestion, if she disagrees then say “okay” but then ask for clarification from your direct supervisor (without mentioning that you plan to do that). Maybe you can ask clarification from your direct supervisor about what you should do in that situation, when the other supervisor tells you to do something that’s supposed to be in your/your direct supervisor’s wheelhouse. That part is clearly something they need to work out so you can know how to respond professionally.

    2. fposte*

      I don’t think it’s a calm or not calm thing; it’s about strategy. I would consider picking your battles. Pushing back on the TV screen comment, for instance, is likely to generate aggro without getting you anything. Cardboard boxes in the conference room–is that going to be a problem for somebody? Will the problem be yours or hers? I also think there are disagreements and disagreements–if you said “I was thinking in the closets, since there was room when I looked yesterday” and then let it go that’s one thing, but if you went deeper than that over cardboard boxes that was probably more about personalities than storage space.

      So detach, let more of this go, look at the upsides of your job or look for another job if you can.

      2. and Peggy*

        Yeah, I did respond in that way about the boxes (the fault will lie solely on my shoulders if the conference rooms aren’t to standard, as they are explicitly my responsibility), but I’ll definitely pick my battles from now on. I think I’ve just mostly been frustrated because every time she talks to me, she brings up other coworkers or partners and vents about how much she hates them (using swear words), so I just got sick of everything and retorted on the TV and “girls are crazy” thing. I’ve tried to deflect whenever she vents and have told her that I’m not comfortable discussing colleagues, but she persists. I guess I just snapped.

        Things get a little more complicated because she’s my supervisor, but not my manager–she’s in another office–and she doesn’t delegate my workload.

        1. fposte*

          If she’s not open to change, it sounds like most of this is just noise she makes and is going to make; call it fly buzz and give it the same level of attention.

    3. SparkyMcDragon*

      The general advice I’ve seen for any sort of unexamined -isms is to say “What do you mean by that?” with an air of genuine curiosity. Once people have to spell out the implicit biases underscoring familiar but offensive jokes they feel uncomfortable doing it. On the other other hand your frustration with her personality/attitudes is likely showing through on actual work issues. If you want to preserve a healthy working relationship you may need to compartmentalize your frustration.

      1. and Peggy*

        I love that advice; I think I’ll be doing that from now on.

        The work issues is a non-issue, I…think? She doesn’t delegate work to me and I don’t submit finished work to her.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I had a boss who did a similar thing. If you need the job then you may need to pick your battles. I targeted things that put down entire groups of people and I targeted things where she said something about me that was not true. I had plenty of those two problems so that kept me busy. I let the rest slide.

      I did find if I could take the emotion out of my voice and just give her an answer in bored tone of voice things went away faster. She seemed to enjoy upset. Keep an eye, see if she enjoys provoking people and enjoys upset. If you can get a handle on this part it might help you in deciding which hills to die on.

      Another way I limited my comments was to speak up only when I knew I was on firm ground. “No, we can’t put the boxes right there, because that is a fire door and we can’t block it.” Part of my underlying approach here too was to insist on logic not emotions for problem solving. This made me come up with logical reasons for doing or not doing a particular thing BEFORE I started speaking. And again, flat tone of voice is really good in these instances.

      I got into the swing of doing this and I remember one day a Big Flap occurred. While my coworkers were standing around complaining about the Big Flap, I was shutting it down with my usual logic. The Big Flap was over before they knew it. This is a great skill to develop and it will be useful for the rest of your life.

    5. Thlayli*

      Here’s the thing. You want to say “shut up” to her, but you can’t because she’s your boss. So you come up with a “subtle” way to tell her shut up. Like saying “why do you say that” or “let’s agree to disagree” or something. In order to pull this off, whatever phrase you say in place of “shut up” has to have an actual meaning that makes sense in this context, so the two of you can politely pretend that you said something other than “shut up.”

      That’s not what you’re doing. The phrase you have chosen “that comment wasn’t necessary” can’t be taken in any other way that makes sense in context. If you meant it literally, i.e. You were actually just telling her that a comment wasn’t necessary, that would be a totally nonsensical thing to say. We all say loads of unnecessary things every day. Small talk is literally just unnecessary comments. So telling her a comment is “unnecessary” could not be interpreted literally, unless you actually didnt understand how conversation works. And even if you did mean it literally, the meaning is still too close to “don’t say that” to say to your supervisor.

      So there is absolutely no way that either of you can do the polite pretence that you didn’t just tell her to shut up. No subtlety. So of course she thinks you have an attitude. Because you are basically telling her to shut up every couple of days.

  43. narwhale of a tale*

    I’m starting my new job on Monday at a Dream Company! Any advice on how to be successful in a corporate environment? Also, in th past, I tend to come into a new position with high expectations, only to be disappointed. Any tips on how to manage my own expectations and enjoy my time?

    1. ContentWrangler*

      Be prepared for a lot of downtime at first. This isn’t for sure, but in many corporate environments, the on boarding process and getting a new employee up to speed and with a full plate, can be really slow. So be available, offer your help, but don’t let it get you too down if there’s a lot of waiting around.

    2. a Gen X manager*

      The big mistake I’ve made in the past is trying to jump in and “get started!” too quickly. I’d suggest being mindful and intentionally observe more than you say and do (whatever is reasonable for your position obviously). Wait at least a month before forming anything more than polite “work friendships” so that you have a chance to observe people’s true behaviors – not just their best behavior.

    3. Lora*

      1. Chill. They have a lot of procedures that you should learn before suggesting any changes. Lots of people come in full of bright ideas for change, without taking the time to understand why a thing is the way it is.
      2. Find small things you can win that you can bang out in the first few months. Preferably visible things. Streamlining calendars, organizing something chaotic, setting up a document that people have been struggling with. Something that people can say, “oh yeah, narwhale did that!” happily.
      3. Find out if there is a social event for you to go to. There may not be, some places are really just, come in, do your job and go home. If there’s a Friday Night Happy Hour that lots of people go to, go there at least once though. If they have some sort of department team build-y thing, a chili cookoff or beer tasting or whatever, do that. You want people to know your name and remember you and demonstrate to your boss that you are making an effort to learn the culture.
      4. If there is a professional organization for your field, join that and see if you can organize a group of folks to go to meetings, or see if the company will sponsor an event for them. “narwhale is very career driven and active in the community!”
      5. Find out who the a-hole is (there’s always at least one) and decide how you’re going to deal with them.
      6. Big companies tend to have a lot of resources for training and probably a company library. Use this time to get as much training and do as much reading as you can, even if a lot of it isn’t directly assigned to you.

    4. periwinkle*

      To reiterate the wisdom of the Gen X manager, don’t jump into work friendships too quickly. Be courteous and polite with everyone, be nice and low-key friendly, but please take your time and evaluate objectively. That sounds both clinical and cynical, but it’s too easy to get drawn into the workplace issues when you are new and don’t know the people (both peers and management).

      Hopefully you’ll find that everyone on your team is a good colleague!

      Talk with your manager to set expectations – what are you expected to learn/do in the first week, two weeks, month, 3 months, 6 months, and year. Ask now what to do with your downtime; is there online learning to complete, industry websites to study, an intranet with company news and process documents, or other documentation?

      Congratulations on the new job!

  44. excuse my anonymity*

    This is a (very long) venting post, don’t mind me.

    My coworker is driving me bonkers. I’ve posted a few times about my smoking office mate who makes my whole office smell like smoke. But I also think he’s not used to sharing spaces. Examples:

    He has no inside voice. None. We’re very lucky and only have to share our offices with one person (so two people per office, in previous jobs I’ve shared with 5 or 7 others), but it doesn’t matter what he does, he is Very Loud. To the point where I have had to vacate the office because I couldn’t think when he was yelling into the phone. My coworker who is senior to me said I had to talk to him about that, because even she could understand every word. And I did. He still has no inside voice and, which makes it more grating for me, his voice is very droning.

    He stamps. his. feet. I don’t know if he has restless leg syndrome of if it’s the nicotine withdrawal, but he wibbles his leg continuously up and down, scraping along the fabric of the chair and I have ignored this no matter how much it annoyed me because that’s supposedly outside his control and complaining would be unfair. Then he started stamping his feet while seated at his desk. The whole floor was shaking and it was really loud. Eventually I had to tell him to keep his legs still. Which I’ve had had to repeat several times.

    The smell is still a wall of perfume and smoke that hits you when you enter my office. I keep the door open always, I open the windows three times a day or when it gets most pervasive (it’s -5 C here right now so I’m not doing it for kicks). I really try to be gracious, I’ve asked him if he can wash his hands when he comes back or maybe do the “long” round back from smoking (across the parking lot instead of the back entrance, makes a difference of maybe 50 meters) so that some of the smoke can dissipate, but he simply doesn’t care. And I’m getting very frustrated, because I’m sensitive to smell, it gives me headaches and sometimes even makes me gag.

    When he stretches (which he does often) his shirt rides up and I have to look at half his torso uncovered. I’m not usually prudish, but I don’t need that in an office setting. If it was occasionally (reaching up and it rides up a little? no biggie, happens to everyone) I wouldn’t mind, but we’re at the point where another (male) colleague commented on him half naked and I said jokingly, “haha this is not what I need at work” – other colleague “well, at least it’s covered by a lot of hair!” and you know, brrr.

    Performance is another thing. He started a few months after me last year (so we’re both pretty new) and this is his very first job in the field and his first job outside academia. We’re both on limited contracts (not in the US). Unlike me he holds the field-specific master degree, but I have the more hands on experience from previous positions. I have gotten amazing reviews from my manager, I’m not sure and honestly don’t care about his performance review. But he has started to politically position himself right away, and he keeps talking over people, keeps making statements that are factually untrue about work and even talks over our manager (“You are wrong, let me explain to you why I’m right”, verbatim, it’s very mansplainy, and I hate that word so much).

    So the litmus test, does it affect my work?

    Yes. It affects my work insofar as that he takes up a lot of time discussing his stances that are objectively wrong, defending those points and won’t take evidence to the contrary and shut up. We’re a 200 year old company of almost 200k people in a regulated industry, there’s simply not much space to question processes that HAVE to be done a certain way (as laid out in internal SOPs and regulations by our regulating body and the like). For the record, we’re not change managers or are in any position where it would make sense to question processes continuously, especially ones we’re yet unfamiliar with due to newness.

    It shouldn’t bother me, but it does, because whenever he questions et another process that has to then be explained to him for the third time in minute detail, his expression is SO SMUG. (To the point where he was recently saying we should have a global teapot lettering department instead of just our local subsidiaries….when he daily interacts with the people from the global lettering department.)

    I know it shouldn’t bother me. I think it’s a combination of all of the non-performance stuff and the fact that his discussing and political maneuvering (to get a permanent position? To advance to management? Idek.) are taking up a lot of my time. I should probably talk to my manager (especially since people have already commented to me about the loudness and the smell and the talking over people), but it’s all so subjective and petty and I’m still so new, I don’t want to be labelled as difficult. There’s no other space for me to sit anyway, offices are assigned and even if switching was an option, no one of my colleagues is willing to share an office with a smoker. Thanks for reading, sorry this got so long.

    1. Reba*

      Haven’t seen your previous posts, but definitely talk to your manager!

      Decide what issue or two is most critical that you want guidance or enforcement from above on. From my point of view that would be the smoking aftereffects (impacting your health) and the time spent on pointless argumentation. Tell her what you have tried to mitigate these problems and ask what she thinks should be done next.

      If he talks over your manager (that’s the manager of both of you, right?) then your manager will probably not be surprised to be having this chat.

      Good luck!

      1. CAA*

        This is good advice. You need to speak up, but don’t go in with a laundry list of petty complaints. Pick the one or two biggies and try to get those dealt with.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, he sounds awful. I wish I had some advice, but all I can think is if anything he’s doing is impacting your work directly, you might go to your manager and ask them how they want you to handle it.

    3. Spelliste*

      It’s totally reasonable that all this is bothering you. It sounds absolutely unbearable. Seconding Reba’s advice! A lot of this adds up to serious distraction and necessarily affects your work, as it would for the vast majority of people. The fact that no one else is willing to share space with him reinforces the validity of your concerns.

      Not helpful, but if I shared an office with someone who carried that much smoke and cologne odor, it would end in me migraine-vomiting all over them and pretending it was an accident. Or maybe this is just another version of my fantasy of doing this to the person who sprays perfume in the bathroom. I will send her a bill when my liver fails from all the Excedrin she makes me take. (Sorry – didn’t mean to rant over your rant!)

    4. Interviewer*

      It’s not your job to decide what the fix is – that’s up to your manager (or possibly HR). Tell them that the smell of smoke is causing significant health issues, and you need to be able to work without getting sick. Point out the efforts you have made on your own, but it’s not helping. Then your boss gets to do the work of figuring out what to do with your coworker.

    5. Anony*

      Is there a reason you have to share an office with him? If you are sharing because you work closely together then there is not too much you can do, but if it is just a space issue you could try talking to your boss about the issues you are having with the smoke. It might be possible for you to share with a non-smoker instead. Maybe not right away, but if someone leaves and they know you need a different office it might happen.

    6. Clever Name*

      Dude, I have so been there. Shared an office with a smoker. He was actually a super great guy, and did great work, but man, the third hand smoke gave me a headache. I was able to switch offices when the opportunity arose.

    7. Panda Bandit*

      I’m sorry that your coworker is so terrible.

      This is not good advice, but I’d be tempted to shoot rubberbands at his middle when he does those stretches where his shirt rides up.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      It’s good to work two ends against the middle.
      The consensus seems to be to talk to your boss. At the same time, find ways to help yourself calm down. Stuff like this can eat at us and ruin the job to the point we leave the job.
      Oddly, one way I have helped myself is to ask the boss for more work or to volunteer to take on more work. For one thing it’s a feather in my cap. But secondly, it gets me busy-busy-busy such that I have to stay focused and plan on what I will do next. This leads me to have a lot less time to think about what someone else is doing and it also helps me to rock the job.

  45. Job Searching for Recent Immigrant*

    My step-mother (my dad’s widow) is in her late 30s and has recently immigrated to the US from Armenia. She is living in Brooklyn. She has a college degree in International Relations but has never had a job since my dad supported her. She speaks fluent English, although her written English isn’t great (mostly spelling errors). I am trying to help her find a job, but I have worked at the same company for the last 15 years and I really don’t know where people go to look for jobs these days. What websites should she be using? Are temp agencies still a thing? I was thinking that might be a way for her to get some experience.

    1. Amber O.*

      Indeed is a great website to start looking at, and most larger cities/towns have staffing agencies for temp or contract placements. I know we have at least 3-4, and I’m in the rural midwest with lots of factories.

    2. K.*

      Temp agencies are very much still a thing, ranging from low-skilled to highly specialized work. Googling “staffing agencies” & the name of your city or town will get you started.

    3. Joanne*

      I’m in the DC Metro area and I’m aware of these few: Walton-Thomas International does a lot of conference and admin work, Solomon Page (based in NY), Beacon Hills (scattered across the country), Phoenix Group (based in NY), Randstad (across the country), LegalE (DC Metro area).

    4. essEss*

      Set up a Linked-In account for her as well. I get daily emails from companies and recruiters that use Linked-in as tools to find people with skills they are looking form.

    5. strawberries and raspberries*

      Try Upwardly Global- they’re a non-profit that specializes in working with recent immigrants (less than 5 years in the US) with advanced degrees. They focus a lot of learning the American job market and helping connect them with good networks so that they can get into their chosen fields faster.

    6. Overeducated*

      You might have her look into networking and employment possibilities at Armenian organizations in NYC, if she isn’t already. Armenian immigrant communities can be really into helping each other out and supporting each others’ businesses. Being fluently bilingual could also be a plus if she wanted to work for an Armenian-serving organization, since knowing the language is rarer among second and third generation Armenians in the US.

    7. brushandfloss*

      YAI.org
      Its an organization to help people with intellectual and developmental disabilities. They have lots jobs listed, most are direct patient care. It may not be a forever job but they always need people. My family member started a little over two ago and was just promoted to supervisor.

    8. Alli525*

      Temp agencies in NYC are manifold. She should check out Green Key, who I’ve used and really like; I’ve also worked with Atrium and liked them (I’ve used both agencies from both employer and job-seeker perspectives). Green Key has slightly more corporate contacts while Atrium has some connections with the arts and fashion.

      Maybe this is a little naive, but a bilingual person in NYC with a degree in International Relations might be well-served to look into U.N. agencies and their affiliates. And maybe the Armenian Embassy would have some good connections.

  46. AnonForThis*

    I need a new job. I am miserable.

    My company is fine, it’s just been 5 years and I’m sick of it. Many of my projects make it so I have to work in proximity to a person that is not easy to work with, and instead of fighting for change here, I’m ready to move on.

    I’m 2 years out of college, I have “manager” in my title, and I’ve worked closely with the Head of Operations here. Ideally, I’d love to work in operations. I love developing processes, strategies, and solving problems.

    Any tips? I know nothing else besides this company. I love my bosses, and they only want me to succeed, but I’ve recently gotten a giant raise and been invited to a really expensive conference out of town, so I can’t really tell them I’m leaving.

    1. Reba*

      The raise and conference do not trap you at Current job. But they do provide evidence of your successes and high regard at this company that you can talk about when you interview for exciting new jobs!

      Have you started seriously looking? What’s out there that piques your interest?

    2. Undine*

      Start looking! You don’t know what’s out there until you look & interview. Looking is not a commitment to leave, interviewing is not a commitment to take a job. Don’t tell them until you give notice. It could be months before you find what you want.

      They gave you a raise and a conference because they think you are worth it. That doesn’t create an obligation to stay on your part.

  47. CollegeAdmin*

    I work in higher ed, and I’m trying to decide if I want to stay there for my career or move to a different industry (some kind of corporate). Has anyone done this? Did you end up going back to higher ed, or do you like not being in higher ed? Why?

    1. Amber O.*

      I left higher ed for corporate about a year ago. I miss it a lot (the people were amazing and the sense of community was like a second family), but there’s so much more room for growth (and money) in a corporate career. I’d love to get back into higher ed, but I doubt I’ll ever find a university/college job that pays as much as what I make now.

      1. CollegeAdmin*

        Would you mind if I asked what you did in higher ed (e.g., institutional research, admissions, development) and what you now do in your corporate job?

        1. Amber O.*

          I was in Academic Affairs, but our campus was small and we all “wore a lot of hats” so I did a myriad of tasks. I was with the college for 5 years before I left. Now I work in the medical device sector as a project manager/coordinator- it was a pretty big jump.

    2. Anony*

      I left higher ed after 12 years and could not be happier. I worked in academic libraries (although my role was not librarian position and I worked predominately with departments and offices) and I hated the slow pace, lack of money (both for the department and in my paycheck) and the fact that we seemed to be light years behind what my professional peers in the corporate world were doing. I’ve now been corporate for 5 years and it’s a better fit for me personally. There are still the politics, annoying coworkers, and more work than I can do, but there’s also more opportunity, interesting projects, and definitely more money. I can’t imagine going back to higher ed.

    3. Damn it, Harrison*

      I left higher ed after 12 years and could not be happier. I worked in academic libraries (although my role was not librarian position and I worked predominately with departments and offices) and I hated the slow pace, lack of money (both for the department and in my paycheck) and the fact that we seemed to be light years behind what my professional peers in the corporate world were doing. I’ve now been corporate for 5 years and it’s a better fit for me personally. There are still the politics, annoying coworkers, and more work than I can do, but there’s also more opportunity, interesting projects, and definitely more money. I can’t imagine going back to higher ed.

    4. RobotWithHumanHair*

      I worked in Higher Ed for 17 years and left a little over a year ago. Never looked back. Got tired of the way the administration would consistently mistreat those of us in the trenches and the constant favoritism shown those who were terrible at their jobs, but clearly knew where the bodies were buried.

    5. Kate*

      I moved from higher ed to a healthcare company a couple years ago. I’m a recruiter, so it wasn’t a tough transition. I recruited staff (not faculty) for the university; now I recruit clinical staff. My reasons for leaving were very practical– 60% commute, 20% pay, 20% knowing I would be a stronger recruiter if I had experience in multiple industries.

      There are pros/cons to both. I miss the higher ed environment, and the kinds of people it attracts. I miss being in a mission-focused atmosphere. My university had a good culture overall and a lot of perks to make up for below-market pay. Weirdly, I miss that there were a million policies for everything. (I like knowing what the rules are.)

      I like that I’m paid a market rate. I like that there are more resources for me to do my job. I like that decisions can be made quickly, if you have support from the higher-ups. There aren’t layers and layers of approvals required for what everybody agrees is a good idea.

      I would go back to higher ed happily, but I don’t regret going corporate.

    6. Alli525*

      I worked in higher ed, kind of, right after graduation (it was an agency run by the university system, but we served elementary/middle/high school administrators) and it was an amazing job. However, my state decided that funding education wasn’t really all that important, and this was after the 2008 financial crisis, so the agency shuttered a few months in. I moved states, worked corporate for 5ish years, and then went back to higher ed, where I am now, and love it.

      There’s pluses and minuses to both sides, of course, and the corporate world will say “well of COURSE you want to switch, more money!” and the higher-ed world will say “well of COURSE you want to switch, more vacation time!” So it’s about priorities and the sacrifices you’re willing to make depending on the stage of life you’re in.

    7. KayEss*

      Depends on exactly what you do, I think… when it comes to certain jobs, like technology or marketing, staying in higher ed for a long time can hurt your chances of getting out of it. Higher ed tends to be 5-10 years behind in best practice trends and basic tech, so it’s hard to stay competitive as a candidate.

      Really my question would be: do you feel respected at your job? If the kind of work you do is not respected, that’s not likely to change institution-to-institution. I’m getting out of higher ed after a combined 6 years because it’s just not an environment that respects what I do, and I’m sick of working on highly insular teams that are treated like shit by everyone we work with. (For crap pay, to boot.)

  48. Potent Potables*

    How do you know if a job isn’t a good fit vs it’s you vs you need to give it more time? I just started my job a couple months ago and it seems clique-y. People only ask their friends for help/address those that they know. I can’t figure out why one girl is liked because she is snippy/rude/has attitude issues, yet everyone else loves her. She is pleasant and very social with them. I don’t get it. Is there some secret that I am missing? Is it me? I don’t know if I’ll ever be happy in a job. I’m trying, but it would be nice to be given a chance as well. Any advice?

    1. LKW*

      If the job is fine but the office personnel are a pain there are a few things you can do:
      1. Be very good at your job. Earn the respect of your co-workers. It’s a job after all.
      2. Be polite and inquisitive. Ask people about themselves, if they have pictures on their desk – ask them about them. Be attentive and compliment them. Don’t be fake but most people have something compliment-able.
      3. Pretend that you don’t see the mean-girl nonsense. Just be above it. If Heather Heather and Heather don’t say hi to you – fine.
      4. If you are running a meeting, especially anytime after 1pm – every so often bring candy. Everyone loves candy. The sugar perks people up, they make decisions and they like candy. Keep people wondering if you are or are not bringing candy.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It might be helpful to reframe. Instead of saying, they ask their friends, tell yourself they ask the ones they are comfortable with or the ones they are used to getting answers from.

      The snippy girl may have a dark humor and everyone just ignores the negative. Or it could be that she is snippy with new people but that goes away in a bit for whatever reason. I worked with someone who I knew was snippy with others and she was with me initially. The key to unlocking this situation was to just be friendly and chat with her. It took a bit. Finally she realized, “Hey, NSNR, comes over and chats with me from time to time.” Once we got on an even keel, we never went back to the old stuff.

      I would wait at least six months before deciding I had a problem. More likely, I would wait closer to a year. Just something I have observed but it seems like when I start a new job the conversation is all about them. Try to roll with that because it will change. Focus on learning their concerns, what they find helpful and so on. This is actually working on becoming part of the group.

      Last. Aim for being content. Happiness is fleeting at best. Jobs can yo-yo between good days and bad days. So aim for just settling in and getting to know the place and its culture.

  49. rosenstock*

    i’m having a difficult time with a trainee – she should be up to speed right now (it’s been several months), but she panics a lot in fast-paced, high-stress situations (which is a LOT of our job) and makes silly mistakes as a result. i’ve told her explicitly it’s important to take a moment to breathe, slow down, and take the time you need to get the thing right. i’ve told her explicitly it’s better for the boss to have the item 5 minutes late but have it correct than have it ‘on time’ but wrong. it doesn’t seem to have gotten through to her. also when she messes up she frequently says something like “i messed this up because i’m so f*cking stupid. i’m so sorry. i’m so f*cking dumb.” and that language makes me really uncomfortable because it’s like, what do i say to that??? i’m a peer trainer, not a manager, so i don’t want to overstep. it makes my job harder because i have to triple-check everything she does and it takes so much longer. gah

    1. rosenstock*

      she also has a bad habit of sending multi-paragraph emails explaining her whole thought process with a lengthy apology when someone corrects something small. like, boss says “can you print this on green paper instead of blue next time? thanks!” and trainee goes “oh my gosh, i am so so sorry, i considered it initially and i spoke to X but then because of Y and Z reasons i went with blue because of the weather conditions and my horoscope and blah blah blah”. i really think she should stop doing that, but again, i don’t want to overstep.

      1. a-no*

        The over-explaining is probably nerves, or residual weird behavior from former job. I’m slowly teaching myself I do not need to cover my own ass on everything, which is odd behavior switch to say the least.
        Also, even though you’re a peer maybe just being very blunt with her would help.
        “The simple mistakes would be fixed if you’d do X, but sitting there dragging yourself across the coals isn’t going to fix it and frankly, makes me feel really uncomfortable. Like what am I even supposed to say to that? What kind of response are you hoping for from me when you say you’re so f*cking dumb?”

        1. rosenstock*

          i think you’re right, and i totally get the panicking thing (considering i have a panic disorder, lol, but it is very well medicated). maybe next time i will throw out a blunt “i really don’t know what to say when you say things like that, it makes me uncomfortable”

    2. Hannah*

      I had a similar thing happen when I was training a peer. It got to the stage where I was doing a lot of her work myself and couldn’t trust her to do her work without errors. It caused me a lot of stress at the time, I was basically doing whole projects myself and reworking her contributions but finally I decided to talk to my manager and insist I couldnt work with her and as a peer it was difficult to be always insisting she d0 the work again. To be honest it did put strain on our relationship because my coworker felt that I had shopped her in. But everything was solved and she upped her game and a lot of the burden of managing her work was taken off me as my manager took over. Now it is much better. I would really recommend explaining this to your manager, I really regret not saying something sooner.

      1. rosenstock*

        thank you hannah! we have a few projects in the next 2 weeks that i want to monitor her closely on before going to my manager, but after that if i am having the same issues i will definitely speak with her.

      2. essEss*

        I’m not trying to be dense… but what does “shopped her in” mean? From context I can tell she thinks it’s something negative but I can’t figure out the actual meaning.

    3. LKW*

      It is possible to have her make a job aid for these tasks? If so, you can confirm the job aide and it can even have notes like “if y, then z but if x, then 7” . Then she can use the guides to check she’s done everything that she needs to do.

      If this already exists and she just can’t handle it – it may be time for her to go.

      1. rosenstock*

        actually before trainee joined our team, i was tasked to create a specific protocol document, which is SUPER detailed and (i think) easy to read – my bosses really liked it! i’ve asked her to read it and refer to it multiple times, so maybe you are correct, lol.

        1. LKW*

          So maybe have her take the protocol and create a checklist from it – a job aid that she can print and check off. Before she turns in the work – she refers to the checklist and confirms she did everything. But maybe her checklist has things like “spell check run” or whatever she needs.

          Or she just needs to go.

          1. rosenstock*

            hahaha. i’m going to watch her closely in the next 2 weeks and may take the checklist suggestion! thank you!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You have standing on this one because you are her trainer.
      Tell her to stop berating herself. And if you wish add, “all that cussing is not cool in this office.” People tend to use these statements like a crutch, somehow it allows them to continue making the same poor calls over and over. Point that out to her if you wish. But do tell her to stop berating herself, she will free up brain space to actually absorb the job when she does stop. Her choices are keep berating herself OR learn the job.

      Mistakes at high speed. Sit her down and tell her that you have tried to help her with her panic under pressure. Tell her you do understand that not every piece of advice works for everyone. Then go on to explain that the pressure and high speed are part of the job, there is no escaping that. Tell her that you want her to start to build a plan to help herself. Then say, “We will come back to this conversation tomorrow and I am going to ask you to tell me one thing that you will do to help yourself not to panic.”
      Next day make sure you ask what tool she has come up with to help herself. Hopefully, she will have come up with something. IF yes, tell her that is it’s a good idea and she should try it. Then you can encourage her to find more tools.

      I had a cohort who freaked out about everything. She really should not have been in the job. However, there she was. I started making her copies of the lists I use for this or that. Painfully, I had to remind her to use the list I just gave her. It was not my job to train her and I was considered her peer. But no one else was going to train her because of the nature of our setting. I did other little things to reduce panic such as putting clear labels on things with her. Yes, she needed hand holding on that level.

      This said, you can give progress reports to the boss. Be specific, let your examples tell the boss that this woman is not getting it. Be sure to ask the boss how long you should be training her before cutting her loose on her own.

      One thing I have done is train people how to deal with things when they no longer have a trainer. I will say, “Okay so you are faced with situation X. There is no one to ask. How do you break this down into parts and begin to deal with it?” Then we’d talk about what to do.

  50. LinkedIn Creatives*

    Those of you with creative-adjacent corporate positions, do you consolidate all your efforts on LinkedIn? For example, as an industrial graphic designer, should I mention that I also do private logo design and list my successful campaigns? Would a technical/service writer also mention published freelance pieces? Etc.

    1. ContentWrangler*

      I would/do. As long as you know that your manager and your company don’t have anything against side jobs.

  51. karou*

    How common are internal transfers are at different companies or industries? I often see comments here recommending people transfer to a different role or manager when a position or work relationship isn’t working out. I work for a mid-size company — about 400 people at this location — and transfers are just not an option. There aren’t other positions open or other managers to report to if you want to change (unless there is a job opening to apply to and go through the hiring process).

    1. CAA*

      It depends on the company. Big megacorps tend to let people move around more than small family owned businesses do just because there are more openings requiring similar skills.

      It also depends on what level and department you work in. In a company of 400, there is probably only one HR director, so if you do HR work and report to her, there’s no opportunity to move unless you can completely change your career path. However, there might be two or three customer support managers and you could switch from one to the other; but if you are one of those managers, you report to a single director and again there’s no place to move without changing your role.

    2. Grapey*

      It’s very common where I am, but I suspect my job is an outlier. There’s a lot of niche sciencey things we do, so people often migrate between software development groups and ‘hands on’ operations.

      What happens is that people spend more of their day with people in other groups and there’s a sort of osmosis of skills. e.g. Someone that was tasked with doing their project’s lab analytics works with our BI department to make pivot charts. He finds he likes it and moves into a longer term BI role once the lab project is over. Bonus is that he understands the lab process too, which a new hire likely wouldn’t have. Likewise we hired a software developer that found he liked working with lab automation, so he builds robots for the lab now. It’s like we do a bubble sort with employees until they find their ideal group.

  52. hermit crab*

    Had my first experience with “surviving” a big round of layoffs this week. Really, it was done as sensitively and thoughtfully as possible, and it wasn’t a huge surprise (we work on EPA contracts, so the budget situation is…. yeah), and my own particular job is pretty secure, for reasons. But still, it suuuuuuuuuuuucked. Wow, did it suck. One of my closest, dearest friends (from way back, before either of us started working here) was laid off, and now management is being suuuuuuuuuper nice to me and asking how I am and making sure I understand that my BFF’s layoff wasn’t personal and I’m like — seriously. I get it. BFF gets it. We’re adults. It’s business. But, really, I’m not the one you should be being so nice to. Ugh, ugh, ugh.

    On the upside, I loved seeing all the pet photos yesterday and I appreciate getting the opportunity to talk about my bugs! That was good timing. :)

    1. CAA*

      Layoffs are tough on those left behind too. A lot of people are probably feeling some survivors guilt and sometimes those effects are delayed, so your management team is right to be concerned about retention and morale among those who are staying and check in with them a few times.

      Yes, they should be compassionate and helpful towards your BFF and others who were let go, but in a group layoff there’s a single package and everybody has to get the same thing, so there’s probably not much they can do.

    2. periwinkle*

      At least your management is trying to be reassuring, albeit perhaps a touch over the top in doing so.

      I loved your bugs! Creepy, but in a cool way. Our photos bookended that post (my avatar is the same cat back in her less grumpy kitten days).

  53. Nervous Accountant*

    On another note…

    so I posted about my coworker from a few weeks ago (1/5 I believe) about how she emailed me an extremely simple question while I was on vacation and I got a lot of good advice here.

    An update on that–while I was away for the funeral, she emailed me a question that she could have literally googled (where she can find the link to something).

    I did what I normally do–checked my emails but waited to get back to respond. When I got back, I sent her a strongly worded response that I hesitated a 1000 times but then sent.

    I suppose you could say I’m no better than my boss who’s emailed me nasty things in the past. but….Ive tried to help her. It was worth any chewing out I got for it.

    1. Just Peachy*

      I’m sorry you got chewed out, what a frustrating situation!

      It sounds like this individual is intentionally emailing you questions while you’re gone so that she has an excuse for not doing her work on time (“I was waiting for Nervous Accounting to respond to my question!”)

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Oh no I didn’t get chewed out. I just thought if I did it’d be worth it.

        I got a “looked the other way” from 1 person and a clap from someone else so… ok I guess?

    2. Delphine*

      Had you already spoken to her about emailing you with those types of questions in a non-strongly worded way?

  54. Long time lurker*

    The question about spouses and business trips today reminded me of something. Similar to how you might have spouses or kids come along on a business trip, would that also be okay with parents? Or does that look bad? I’m a young woman in her early twenties, and, considering that, I’m wondering if it would look bad if my mom or my sister came along with me or if it would reinforce the idea that I’m a child. I personally think that it shouldn’t make a difference whether it be spouse, child, or parent. But do the optics change depending on the family member?

    1. Murphy*

      I wouldn’t bat an eye at bringing your sister to go sightseeing with. I can see how bringing a parent, particularly if you’re young, might get some weird looks, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.

    2. hermit crab*

      It might be weird if you did it all the time, or maybe if you brought both your mother and your sister, but what you are describing sounds fine to me. For example, I know someone whose parent tagged along to a conference because it was the same week as the solar eclipse, in a city that saw totality. And someone else whose parent came on a business trip that happened to be to the employee’s parent’s hometown. In both cases everyone’s response was like, “oh, how nice of Employee to invite Parent along!”

    3. Pollygrammer*

      Sadly, I think spouses/partners are different. There’s a natural expectation that they spend a lot of time together, with joint finances and decisions. 3+ days apart is abnormal enough for spouses that it’s understandable if they want to avoid it.

      I do think bringing a sibling on a business trip is going to look young, and bringing a parent is going to look very young.

    4. LKW*

      I’ve been thinking about this myself – although I’m in my 4o’s. My dad recently passed. He had health issues which made traveling more difficult. My mom can walk longer, farther and faster than I can. I have some potential international travel and was thinking if the opportunity presented itself, she might tag along – go do touristy things while I’m working and then we could take a few days together to do stuff. We travel well together as long as we bring anti-snoring earplugs.

      So – only weird if you limit your work activities to be with your parent – that’s an unspoken no-no.

    5. Engineer Girl*

      I’ve done it. In my case the trip was to the other side of the US, within a few hours drive of my parents home. I only saw my parents 1-2 times a year in normal years.
      And that’s how I framed it when I asked my boss. I told them that my parents were on the other side of the country and this trip was an opportunity to connect. Would it be possible for them to stay with me if I paid for the difference in the hotel fees? I told my boss that it would in no way affect my working hours and that my parents knew that.

    6. Paper Pusher*

      I honestly don’t think it’s an issue regardless of the relationship between you and your companion(s). As long as it isn’t interfering with your work requirements, what you do in your free time is your own business. It should also go without saying that no additional costs should be born by the company as the result of you choosing to bring a companion along (unless there are policies that allow it in certain circumstances).

      I’ve been on both sides of this — when I am traveling somewhere fun for work family/friends often join for all/part of the time and I’ve tagged along on several of their trips. As long as work comes first for the working person, it’s all good. My sister’s at a conference in CA right now — my mom, aunt, and cousin all flew in from various places in the country to meet up there and vacation. I’d be there too if my own travel schedule wasn’t already insane this month.

    7. Anony*

      It depends. If you were taking some vacation days and they joined you after the work portion of the trip was done, then it doesn’t look weird at all. But if your parents were with you for the whole trip it could make you seem somewhat dependent on them. If it was a particularly exciting location and you made it a point to spend most of your time doing work and networking while they did tourist stuff alone then it is less of an optics problem.

    8. Blue Eagle*

      I agree that bringing a sibling/parent on a business trip usually results in a negative impact. However, if they arrive and stay with you on the last day of your business trip so that they are with you primarily on vacation days after the trip, that has a totally different look that is OK.

    9. Book Lover*

      I took a friend with me to one when I was in my 20s. We shared a room and spent time together outside conference hours and it was nice. I took my mother with me to one just as a treat, then the next year she started coming with me to all of them because she is the babysitter and I had my first :).
      It is really standard in my field for conferences to be in tourist locations and there is no expectation that I network (it is continuing education) and so most people bring a partner and kids if they have them.

      But I think it is reasonable to look around and see if people usually go alone and do a lot of networking or if it is more like what I see at our conferences. And you don’t have to advertise who you are traveling with.

  55. ZuZu's Petals*

    I’m curious as to other people’s thoughts on companies who reimburse for education. My company is offering to pay for a certification program that I’m very interested in. It would help me professionally to gain knowledge that would be useful to my current company, and if I wanted to transition within my industry further down the line. The training would take four months, and I’d have to pass a certification exam at the end.

    My company instituted a new policy that if I leave within one year after completing the training, I would need to pay back the cost of the course. Considering the course itself is 4 months, this seems a bit of an excessive commitment. The cost is about $1500 which is not a huge cost to the company but would pretty significantly impact my finances. There is also no proration on the payback period, so if I left after 11 months, I would still have to pay back the full $1500.

    I know that of course they can make whatever policies they want, but I was curious how this compared to other people’s experiences? I would love to not be here for another 16 months, so I know that is also impacting my thoughts on it :)

      1. ZuZu's Petals*

        Thank you! I actually stole it from a romance novel, as the author named a store ZuZus Petals and had lots of other IAWL easter eggs as well.

    2. yup*

      I think it is pretty standard. Chances are if you do leave, you can negotiate a raise or bonus to cover the cost of paying back the organization. I would go for the certification if it makes you more marketable and increases your income potential.

      1. ZuZu's Petals*

        Thanks – my plan has been to do the certification regardless, and that’s a good point about a new role’s pay increase helping to compensate for the cost.

    3. Amber O.*

      That seems pretty standard from what I’ve seen with companies in my area. It’s a way for them to “insure” their investment and get some of the benefits from your education, which is why they paid for it in the first place.

    5. AndersonDarling*

      Yep, that’s our policy. I’ve weighed any educational expenses against the possibility of leaving each time I’ve used the benefit. But if you generally like your company, then a year passes really fast.

      1. ZuZu's Petals*

        I think it’s the “generally liking the company” that’s the issue so I know that’s clouding my judgement :)

    6. Millennial Lawyer*

      If you already know you do not see yourself with this company, it might be best to just try to pay for the course yourself if you’d like the certification. They don’t want to pay for someone’s professional growth just so they could use it at another company!

      1. ZuZu's Petals*

        I would do that, but then I’d have to essentially have to tell my company I don’t want to commit to them for another year, which I think would be tough. We’re a small, 25 person organization, so it makes turning down something like this a little more tricky.

      1. ZuZu's Petals*

        Oh wow, yes it is :) Turnover in my company is pretty high, so I doubt anyone would even take advantage of the situation if the wait period is that long (but, I’m in a field where certifications are generally a nice to have instead of a must have, and don’t necessarily effect promotions, etc)

    8. Irene Adler*

      Will there be opportunity to take similar certification training after you move to another company?

      1. ZuZu's Petals*

        It’s a pretty standard certification for the field, so I’m sure it could be a possibility. It’s more of a “nice to have” so I think it just depends on the company if they would pay for someone to do it.

    9. Red Reader*

      My org’s policy on tuition reimbursement requires a two year commitment after the completion of the degree program, though ours prorates.

    10. LKW*

      I did my master’s through tuition reimbursement. I don’t recall having a similar policy but it was a long time ago. I can see the point though – they’re offering to give you money but if you leave after completing the program – they derive no benefit from it.

      If you dislike your company that much, better to find a company with a similar benefit where you’ll stay and use that certification.

      1. ZuZu's Petals*

        Yeah totally understand the reason behind the policy. They actually put the policy in place because when they first brought up the training, I asked if the policy existed, and it didn’t. SO it’s my own fault haha. My concern was more on the length of the time commitment, but that seems really standard for most companies, so that is helpful for me! It’s tough because I like my job and my direct managers a lot, it’s senior leadership that causes issues and I know that just makes me see things less clearly sometimes, or feel like there’s an issue where there really isn’t!

    11. Engineer Girl*

      The company is paying for the education for their benefit. One year is a reasonable time period if they are footing the entire bill.
      If you don’t want to be bound by these terms you are free to pay for it yourself.

      1. ZuZu's Petals*

        Yes, agreed. I have already mentally allocated some of my savings as the “just in case” payback, should I find a new position before the year is up.

      2. periwinkle*

        This. The educational benefit is for the company as well as for you. When you leave, you keep the certification but they lose someone who has the certification. Do you like (or can tolerate) your current employer enough to stay for one year after finishing the certification? Heck, maybe if you decide you want to leave earlier and the certification has made you more marketable, ask if the new company will cover the cost as a signing bonus.

        The terms aren’t unusual. When I worked for a health care non-profit (which had excellent benefits otherwise), we were required to repay in full any educational benefit used within one year of leaving the org. At my current employer, it’s two years but only for graduate degree programs; graduate certificates, single courses such as certification prep classes, and undergrad degrees have no time commitment. I think they’re more of an outlier on tuition benefits, though.

    12. Sabrina Spellman*

      I don’t know if this happens everywhere, but I know it does in Higher Education. At the University where I work, employees are expected to say three years after earning their degree if the University paid the bill.

    13. Bagpuss*

      Like others, I think it is fairly normal. We have a similar policy, in our case it is two years from completion of the course , although that falls to 50% after 12 months and to 25% after 18.

    14. Thlayli*

      I think the rules sound pretty normal to me. This is a course you want to take but aren’t being required to take. They are generously paying for it, so long as you 1) pass the test and 2) stick around long enough for them to get some benefit from it. Totally normal and actually quite generous.

      I think the way to decide would be to decide is this a course you would want to have even if you left the company? If so, go for it. A year isn’t so long and if you find something awesome in the meantime you can just reimburse them and leave.

    15. Kuododi*

      DH is on the last semester of his second Master’s degree due to a combination of student loan and work scholarship. His degree program will take a total of three years and he will owe his job 5years at the end to “work off” the debt.

    16. GovernmentMule*

      I had a prorated 3-for-1 payback period for my grad degree. I looked on it as guaranteed employment, since that payback was void if they let me go during that window!

  56. AlphabetSoupCity*

    I work as staff in a university, and I am the project manager on a project where a junior faculty member is the lead and he is driving me crazy. He doesn’t tell me information that I need to help move the project forward, he ignores my questions, he ignores my suggestions, and the suggestions of senior faculty members who lead the program this project falls under, he doesn’t seem to care about ethical considerations around authorship, and overall he is stressing me out. I guess I just needed to vent! Also, does anyone have any suggestions for not letting it get to me? I am doing my best, but it’s making me so much more stressed and miserable to be working with him. I usually like my job and am able to have good home/work separation, but lately I have been dreading going into work, feel exhausted after, and keep thinking about how to deal with this when I’m off.

    1. Murphy*

      I’m also university staff and I feel you! I don’t work closely with any one faculty member, but I get a lot of that kind of thing from a lot of people, so I sympathize. I try to just focus on the task at hand, and making sure I get the information that I need to do my job. Everything else that’s not in my control and that isn’t necessary for me to do my job, I just let it go. Easier said than done on many occasions, but I try!

  57. Indeed vs Glassdoor reviews?*

    Does anyone rely on Indeed company reviews, in lieu of Glassdoor reviews?

    I’m looking for a side gig, and a friend of mine recommended online ESL tutoring with a company based in Canada/China. Glassdoor does not list the site, but Indeed.com does, and its reviews are mixed. In particular, two recent reviews suggest that it’s difficult to communicate with management and that paychecks are sometimes late. I hear a lot on AAM about relying on Glassdoor for company info; but what about Indeed?

    Of note: My friend and I are both in the US. We know someone (also in the US) who has worked for this company and had a good enough experience that she recommends that other people work for it too.

    1. a-no*

      I use Indeed as the same as Glassdoor. They are company reviews, BUT I do find Indeed ones tend to be overly positive or negative as they aren’t as regulated as Glassdoor.

    2. ZuZu's Petals*

      Regardless of the website, I think all online reviews should be taken with a huge grain of salt. If your friend was in a similar role, and had no issues, then I would probably value that over the online reviews. Also, I know that my company’s reviews are significantly worse on Indeed than Glassdoor – obviously just one example, but it could be a trend that Indeed has more negative reviews than other sites for whatever reason.

      2. periwinkle*

        Definitely. Plus, as we’ve all no doubt experienced, your direct management can make or break the employee experience. A crappy manager drives you away from an otherwise good job and a great manager keeps you going when all around is not so great.

        I’ve read reviews for my employer and they’re all over the place. The perceptions of my coworkers are also all over the place, depending on their experiences, personalities, and management chain. Some (myself included) see tons of opportunity to learn and achieve here, while others feel like they’re stuck in the chair cushions.

        Now, if I see consistent threads in reviews which appear to balance positives and negatives, well, that means more than a bunch of all-caps rants from people who might well feature in the next edition of Bad Coworker Stories.

  58. KK*

    I’ve been distracted and stressed out at work all week, as my husband had a biopsy on Monday (he’s had some enlarged lymph nodes in his neck for about 8 months). We were both thinking the worst, but the results came back yesterday afternoon and it’s NOT cancer! No signs of malignancy! Such a great start to the weekend. :)

    3. KK*

      Thanks! I am so relieved. My husband is currently in PA (physician assistant) school, so I think it’s just made him expect them worst because he knows/has seen too much!

  59. I Am Now a Llama*

    Ok, first time question for everyone….

    I’m a team lead of ‘teapot administrators’, and one of the admins on a different team, (think spouts admins vs lids admins) is being totally unproductive and plays with their phone all day. They are a contractor and is on the short list to get walked out if productivity does not improve. To cloud the issue they are a from a different country.

    What is the best way phrase this because I don’t have any clear authority over this person. I want to convey, “Straighten up your act, or you’ll be gone.”, but I don’t know how to best phrase this.

    Any ideas?

    2. Reba*

      Do you have regular check ins or one-on-ones with the team members? That would be the time to raise it. Although an extraordinary meeting could also convey its own kind of message.

      I agree with red Reader’s implication (?) that someone with the firing authority would ideally talk to them about their risk of being fired. But it sounds like you have some standing to talk to them about their productivity, that you and higher ups are aware of their level of performance and that it is not satisfactory, and offer concrete things you need to see changed. Good luck!

      1. Red Reader*

        My “implication” (?) was that -a- the Llama doesn’t appear to have any sort of supervisory relationship with the slacker, which (to me) suggests that any disciplinary issues on the other team are not their business, and -b- if this person can’t figure out on their own that playing on your phone all day puts your job at risk, why the heck would you still want them working for your company anyway?

        1. Reba*

          Oh yeah, I was picking up what you meant but totally missed that this person is on a different team altogether!

    5. Anony*

      Focus on how their work affects you. If there is no effect, then do nothing. If they are slow at getting things back to you or sloppy, then tell them that. The phone is irrelevant to your interactions.

  60. Another Kate*

    Any advice on navigating this particular tricky team dynamics? I’m working on this project that is an absolute cluster right now. I think some of it is just how things work here (I’m about 7 months into this job) but part of it is unique to this project. It is a massive project with an very aggresive deadline. To tackle this they threw a bunch of resources at it including me. The work was kind of divided into team A (highly technical) and team B (public facing) though there are obviously reasons these two teams should be interacting (but they aren’t). I am not a technical expert by any means. But team B is relying on me to be to go between and translate for them. I’m expected to deliver notes and organize agendas for these meetings which have nothing to do with my expertise. I am overloaded with work on other projects that are actually using my expertise. But team B keeps saying that I’m an important part of the team and I need to ask for more time to dedicate to this project. When in reality I feel like I’m just doing their job for them and a crutch for them to lean on so they don’t have to get fully up to speed on their project. When I keep pointing out that I’m just conveying other people’s opinions back and forth and not offering any guidance in what my expertise is in they just counter with “no your valuable to us!”. I want to respond “yeah, cause I’m doing your job!”. Any advise on how to push back on this and/or speak with my manager about this? I don’t want to come off as “this isn’t my job” but really it’s not where I add value to the process.

    2. Long Time Lurker*

      If you are sure that you aren’t adding value and especially if you are falling behind on other parts/deadlines of the project then check in with your team lead or project manager. “Hey, project B has been scheduling meetings with me to go over tech stuff so they can (whatevery it is they do with it.) I don’t mind helping but since I am spending x hours helping team b I am falling behind on x, y etc. Do we need to move x, y etc. off my plate or start limiting the hours I am available to team b?” Walk in with the number of hours spent talking to team b and not on your core work especially if you are working extra hours to make up for that time. Also have a list of tasks/projects you would be okay with moving off your plate so you don’t lose something you want to keep.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Can you ask your boss? Let her know that they expect you to be UN Interpreter and try to get a sense from your boss how much time she wants you sinking into this.

  61. WellRed*

    Last night, I met another Ask A Manager fan in the wild! Sounds like she found it via the ghosting letter.
    On a more work related note: The two editorial teams here caught an afternoon matinee of the Post yesterday and then went home. That’s my kind of team building!

  62. a-no*

    Hey, I have two questions I could really use some advice on.
    The first is that I’m really struggling staying focused at work. I hate this job and they’ve proven time and time again to me that they will take advantage and exploit everything they can. While I’m looking for a new job though, how do I get back to being productive? I have literally done NOTHING all week as I just can’t be bothered but I have piles of stuff to do. I don’t want to burn bridges but I’m struggling trying to convince myself to do any of the extra work I’ve taken on for them. Any tips you all use?
    The second is that I’ve been trying for a new job for about 6 months now, I’ve gone all the way down the AAM archives for help but I’m still not getting any calls. I know that we are in a bit of an economic downturn again (I’m in Alberta, Canada) but I’m still getting a 0% response rate. Part of me understands it’s the economy and part of me is starting to take it a little personally. Any suggestions/tips to try and get at least a call back or two?

    1. Ex Humanities student*

      Been there, done that… It is really difficult sometimes to go back to being productive, I know.

      The pomodoro method is not bad, and I try to find way to exchange with people in order to stay motivated (brainstorm etc…).
      I also trick myself into giving myself deadlines while informing other people (“I will get back to you on this on the (date)”) in order to be held accountable.

      Good luck…

    2. DDJ*

      I’m in Alberta as well! Things are finally turning around, but still…it’s really not the best market, which sucks.

      My husband has been looking for full-time work for 4 years now. He applies to a few jobs a week – it used to be more, but there’s just not a whole lot left, to be honest. He’s on contract, so it’s not the worst.

      I’d advise not taking it personally. I’ve hired for a couple positions in the last few years, and I got hundreds of applications for each. It’s getting better now, but there’s still an abundance of workers, and not nearly enough positions.

      To help you get through the days: think about your current job as being important in your job search. As important as having a good resume and cover letter! It really sucks, but most people who are looking at resumes find people who are currently employed to be more desirable. I still think that’s BS. And when I was hiring, it didn’t really factor into my decision all that much – I hired someone who had been unemployed for a year. They had strong qualifications, and it’s not like you forget everything you’ve ever done at work if you’re unemployed for a year.

      I know how it feels when you just don’t see the point anymore – it makes it difficult to find the motivation. Maybe reward yourself in small ways. If there’s a snack you really like, maybe bring it in, but make yourself do x amount of work (or a particular task) before you have some. I find that works for me sometimes when I’m having a really low-motivation day.

    3. Argh!*

      I have been looking for a better job for a few years (I’m picky). Meanwhile, my job duties are shrinking, my supervisor doesn’t support me, and my salary isn’t keeping up with inflation. It’s completely demoralizing.

      So… I decided to view all my job duties as part of my portfolio to help me get another job. It’s made me care less about my supervisor’s attitude, and it’s gotten me to focus on finding ways to do what I’m paid for in a tangible way (uploading to the web mainly).

      …. and I had a job interview last Monday! My first one in a few years.

      I feel your pain and I wish you the best.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      To avoid burning bridges, decide that you no longer work for your company. You now work for your resume. You want to do cool stuff and wear a superman/woman suit so you can look wonderful on paper to perspective employers.
      Maybe, just maybe this turn around in focus will leach over on to your job search and cause some good things there. I hope. I wish you the best!

    5. lychee*

      Think of the tasks as way to add accomplishments to your resume and get them done in a sterling manner. Yu are doing it as a professional and to your professional credit. Forget about what and how the current company views it.

  63. Lucky*

    Total not-my-business whine here, but my coworker who constantly shirks off work, comes in late, leaves early etc. has used all but one of her sick days as of today, the second day of the second month of the year. She did the same last year, and it didn’t slow her down – she called out sick another 10 or so times and still took all of her vacation time. I am supposed to be able to delegate work to her, but she is either not here or complaining that she’s so busy. I am verging on full BEC mode here. Ok, rant over. Someone brought donuts.

    1. Just Peachy*

      “Someone brought donuts”

      Haha, that alone makes the situation so much better! I feel your pain, though. I have a coworker who is consistently 15-20 minutes late (in a job where it’s important to be on time), stands at coworkers’ desks and tells long-winded stories (distracting others from their own work) for up to a half hour at a time. However, she spends the rest of the time complaining about how swamped she is, and (ironically) gets extremely irritated when others come to her for a quick question.

      1. Lucky*

        15-20 minutes late is nothing. BECky (new nickname for coworker) regularly shows up an hour after me, and leaves 45 minutes before me. But she eats lunch at her desk, so I guess that makes up for it. (Everyone eats lunch at their desk, BECky. I can see you checking your personal email and shopping on Amazon.)

  64. Anon for this*

    Weird situation at work.
    I started at my current job a couple of months ago. From the start my coworker, lets call her Regina, seems to strongly dislike me. Things have been frosty from the start. We are not part of the same department, but do have to share information at times (and an office). We are peers.

    I feel that I keep her and the department she is part of up-to-date. However, most of my e-mails to them go unanswered.

    Regina has started to complain to me that our departments do not work together (I am a department of one, she is of a department of four). I also have reasons to believe she complained to management about me. In order to discuss this and see if we can solve this, I planned a meeting with the entire team that she is on. Regina declined the meeting (her calendar was free). The others didn’t respond at all.

    A couple of weeks later she complained again that she didn’t feel we were working together. I discussed it with my manager, who is also her manager. He suggested we have a meeting with the three of us. During this meeting we decided that Regina and I would sit together once a week and that we would plan this. After I planned the meeting Regina told me that this was not necessary to plan the meeting for more than once (I made it a weekly meeting). She said it would be too much and just the one meeting would be a big step already, also, if we met every week, we would be meeting just to have a meeting.

    Needless to say, I am confused. She says one thing and does another. I don’t understand what her point is. I feel that it is Regina who doesn’t want to work together.
    I also get the feeling she is trying to make me look bad and I am starting to doubt myself.

    I’m not sure how to handle this – does anyone have any tips or insights?

    1. BadPlanning*

      Maybe do a “Hey, I feel like we got off on the wrong foot somehow.”

      I had a coworker who’s style really rubbed me the wrong way. Apparently my annoyance came out because one time he asked, “Hey, I feel like you don’t like me and I want to work together.” Then I did tell him a few thing that frustrated me about this style. He didn’t change much, but it did break the ice. In hindsight, I should have said something earlier and not just been generally annoyed.

    2. Laura*

      Tell your manager all of this. Particularly the part where she’s going against what’s decided in the meeting. Clearly there’s something going on.

      2. Lynca*

        I would also document what’s going on. She’s complaining to management about you, when she is the one being unwilling to work together. My boss would be livid with Regina for doing that after having a meeting where an outcome was agreed upon.

      3. As Close As Breakfast*

        Yes, let your manager know. It might be helpful to approach it in that “how would you like me to proceed?” way that Alison talks about sometimes. Less of a ‘tattling on awful and unreasonable coworker’ and more ‘I’ve set up weekly meetings as you requested and coworker has declined to participate after the first one. How would you like me to move forward?’

      4. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah. She can’t cut it both ways. She can’t ignore you then say that you don’t communicate.

        One long shot thought though. Are you sure she is getting your emails? Is it even remotely possible that your emails are not arriving where you think they are? I have see WWIII break out and it could have been avoided if people just checked the technology they were using. Again, long shot here.

      1. Margery*

        I’m wondering if Regina feels threatened by you hence complaining instead of speaking to you direct.

        I’d go to your boss in a calm way and explain how obstructive she is being.

      2. Queen B*

        Same, because my name is Regina and I had to read this post extra carefully to make sure it wasn’t about me!

    4. a-no*

      You could also try asking Regina. Next time she says one thing then tries to backtrack just say “I’m confused, we’re doing this as you are having an issue with X, but now your saying the issue isn’t X. So what is the issue and how do you think we should fix it?”

  65. ParalysedbyOverthought*

    I’ve registered my interest in the Secondment position.

    Now I just need to tell my manager. This is almost a question for Captain Awkward. Any idea on a script I can use?

    It’s been hell on toast for two days and the Teapot design team are not the most popular department as far as my boss is currently concerned. I’ve never felt less enthusiastic about a conversation…

    1. fposte*

      I wouldn’t tell the boss until you know you’ve got it. But I also think that you are ceding control that belongs to you here. You broach it to the boss by saying “Boss, I couldn’t pass up this opportunity so I’m leaving for the other department. My last day will be Frigga the eleventeenth.” End scene. If Boss fusses, say “I’m sorry this is upsetting; I wish you and this department the best, and I hope you can wish the same for me. I do want to get transition docs done before I leave, so I’m going to work on those now.”

      You’re locked in a thing with your boss where she pushes stuff onto you because it works, but that still doesn’t make it your obligation. I think it’s high time you moved on out of there and broke this dynamic up.

      1. ParalysedbyOverthought*

        Yeah, I realised I’ve kinda missed an important piece of information here.

        It’s our company policy – if you want to apply for an internal vacancy, your current boss must be informed as a matter of course when you apply, so that they can arrange the proper transitions and timing – in theory, she could put a complete hold on my moving for up to 3-6 months if business needs demand it (I’ve seen it happen, recently, in our IT department).

        So I don’t get to wait until I get an offer. I may not get an offer.

        1. fposte*

          Okay, but the same matter-of-fact principle applies; you know, if you’ve ever dealt with animals, that the rule is “if you treat it as a big thing, it will be a big thing.” You don’t have to take your boss’s emotions on about this or anything else.

          “Boss, I’ve really enjoyed working in this division, but I can’t pass up the opportunity to apply for the opening in Teapots Design, so I’ve put my application in.” The wishing-each-other-well stuff could still be strategically useful, too. You could also, if you can’t face the in-face conversation, email it; if you like, pad it by saying “I’m afraid I’ll get too emotional about leaving Lids if I say this face to face, so I’m informing you this way.”

          It’s okay if she’s unhappy. It’s not your job to make sure she’s happy.

  66. EvilQueenRegina*

    Just venting a bit really after having got so frustrated with my phone avoiding coworker that I reached the point of leaving the room just to get away from the situation and calm down (it was the better option than throwing the team mascot at her). It’s been sort of an ongoing issue for ages but this week our manager has been off with flu and she’s been ignoring lots of calls and logging out of her phone a lot and then in the next breath saying there isn’t a lot of work and disappearing to the bathroom to go on Facebook Messenger and making personal calls ! It’s getting frustrating having to constantly take her calls because we all have other things to do, but I can’t keep leaving the room to get away – how has anyone else coped with that? Is it best if we say something to her direct or raise it with our manager when she returns?

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        We’re effectively front desk. We have to take all the calls. Some of these could be urgent calls about children’s welfare (one team we support is social care).

        1. Temperance*

          Oh, that stinks. I might just talk to the manager and bypass discussing with her entirely, since it sounds like she’ll just get defensive and preemtively CYA with your boss.

    2. Mike C.*

      Any way you can follow her in the bathroom and repeatedly flush the toilet while she’s on the phone? I did that to a guy who was yelling at his broker once.

      A++++ Will do again.

  67. Temperance*

    Crowdsourcing advice: for those of you who work with interpreters, how do you minimize costs? Do you have any free sources for interpreters?

    I’m at the point where we have to limit costs for our immigration pro bono cases, because interpretation costs are so outrageous, and I can’t quite justify taking on more of these when other cases require no out-of-pocket costs.

    1. Anono-me*

      Call churches and other local religious centers that have large groups of the same population that you are looking to serve. They may know some bilingual retirees that are looking for volunteers.

      You might also be able to find a foreign exchange college student who would be interested in a volunteer position. (Or if it could be structured so as not to violate any visa resticions, a paid intership.)

      1. Temperance*

        I have honestly not had luck finding them, anywhere! Even the nonprofit interpreters charge $75+/hour, which isn’t really feasible for a large case that will require a lot of translation and interpretation services. It takes 4 hours to do green card applciations for a non-English speaking family of 5, so that’s $350 right there. It adds up really quickly.

    3. Kuododi*

      I have done legal interpretation on the side to bring in extra $$$. Check local University in your area to see if one of the language professors might be able to make recommendations. (ie broke Master’s level student with necessary language skills looking for extra cash,. Second on the language specific mission churches in your area. ). Good luck…if I were in your area we might be able to work something out!!!

  68. Someone else*

    I have a new director of my department starting soon, and everyone in the department is going to get a chance to have a one-on-one meeting, to basically introduce ourselves but also ask questions. I know I should have questions, but I’m a bit nervous about this and I’m drawing a blank. So, in an attempt to not think of what I wanted to say AFTER the meeting’s over, what are some good “new higher up is just starting” questions to ask? I will not be reporting directly to this person, if that matters. Thanks!

    1. Lumen*

      Since you won’t be reporting to them directly, I’d say spend some time on just ‘getting to know you’ chit-chat: where they’ve lived, what they like to do in their spare time. Keep it light and remember that questions we often think are sociable can bring up negative feelings for the person we’re talking to (ie: maybe don’t ask about family or kids; let them bring it up if they want to).

      I’d be interested in their philosophy about the industry and about managing other people. What drew them to the job, what they’ve liked about what they’ve seen so far, ideas they have. It’s not an interview, but this person is going to be influential in your organization, and it’d be nice to know what their vision is.

  69. Disappointed*

    An agency I previously talked to, who knows how much I’m currently making, contacted me about a job that pays significantly more than my current job. We scheduled an interview (which is for next week). After that conversation, I did more research and found the same ad (exact wording and everything) and found out the rate the agency offered me is at the lower end of the range (and it is a BIG range). I called them and tried to negotiate (which I’m not good at to begin with) and they insisted that was the maximum that could offered.

    I’m interested in the job, but not happy knowing I wouldn’t be paid fairly, especially knowing I tend to a high performer. So my question is: Is there still room for negotiation after the interview? Should I try to negotiate with the interviewer? Should I give up on this job/agency and better luck next time?

    1. ZuZu's Petals*

      This is through a staffing agency, correct? I think there are a few reasons for this. The first is that the company gave the agency a lower salary range, because should they use the agency, they have to pay a fee in addition to the salary. So, if it’s a 50k salary, and the fee is 25%, the company has to pay the agency $12500 for finding the candidate. If you had applied for the role on your own, the company wouldn’t be paying the fee.

      The second option is that your recruiter is trying to keep you competitive in the candidate pool (though I think they should tell you if that’s the case). So, if you’re at 40k now, and the salary range is $50-$60k, they may have told the company you’re a $50k candidate so as to not price you out (especially if other candidates have more experience, stronger backgrounds, etc).

      Any negotiation should typically be done with your agency/recruiter, not the hiring manager at the company. Also, just because they are offering you the lower end of the range doesn’t necessarily mean it’s unfair, because the range is most likely based on a variety of factors. I would go to the interview, and see how it goes and if this is something you’re definitely interested in. If it is, and you really think you should be on the higher end of the salary range I would go back to your recruiter and explain you’re interested, but you really think you’d need to be at xxx to want to move forward with the role and go from there.

      Keep in mind that the recruiter is also probably going off of whatever initial conversation you had regarding salary range, so if your expectations have changed, you just need to communicate that. A good recruiter will be receptive and transparent, even if the salary really is set in stone.

    2. a-no*

      Before you found the other posting where you happy with the salary offered? If so, forget about the range and proceed. I don’t really think you’re leaving money on the table if you were happy with the original and think it is fair for the work you’d be doing.
      It’s possible the top of the range is for applicants who bring 10 years experience instead of 3 etc etc, I often find with such massive ranges that it’s a scale and they are looking for a person within this window of skills and the pay reflects what step you are on.

      1. Mike C.*

        Before you found the other posting where you happy with the salary offered?

        This sort of reasoning leads to a whole lot of bad outcomes. It’s a great way to ensure that women are underpaid when compared to men, or that folks who were previously underpaid continue to be underpaid throughout their working career.

        2. a-no*

          and think it is fair for the work you’d be doing.* which is an important part of being happy with the salary offered. I’m not saying always take what ever they offer you off the bat, but were you happy and did you think it was a fair salary. If the offer was fair and you were happy with it before you saw the bigger range, there’s nothing wrong with proceeding to an interview to see if it’s the right fit. OP posted about an interview, it’s not a set in stone job. So if they were happy with the salary before seeing the range, there is no harm in going to the interview.
          *I put it the fair this in italics in my original comment as it’s an important piece that needs to be considered. This is based on the fact ‘fair’ is your personal opinion on what you bring to the table

          1. Disappointed*

            Was I happy? No, I was not. By the time the staffing agency contacted me, I already had a good idea what the standard pay was for the position. I knew what was offered was on the low end, but I said yes to the interview because the rate was still (as I mentioned) “significantly higher” that I’m currently making, and the staffing agency knew I was in no position to play hard to get. Plus, this is just an interview, so what was the harm in saying yes? But when I found the other posting, it was another punch in the gut because I knew starting out underpaid would remain at a disadvantage at least for a few more years if I took an underpaying job.

            I consider myself a hard worker and know of some people who get paid almost three times as I do who are not just less hardworking but all less capable and less knowledgeable. No, I don’t think it’s fair that their pay is fair for the work they’re doing.

            1. a-no*

              If you weren’t happy from the get go, I’d personally would probably go to the interview (may as well get some no pressure practice) but you’d be well within reason to cancel it and move on.
              If you did go to the interview and get an offer, you could push pretty hard to get a fair offer if you have the option to walk away or force them to withdraw.
              If they aren’t going to give you a fair offer, I don’t really think it’s worth your time.

    3. BRR*

      Some possibilities I can think of are:
      -How does your experience compare with what they’re looking for?
      -I’ve worked places with a large salary band but they always offered on the lower end to account for future raises. Is that a possibility?
      -They think since it’s already a significant increase they can offer you the bottom of the range.

      I think you can still try to negotiate but the time to do that is if you get an offer. I agree with a-no about it.

  70. Job Hunting for People With Random Career History*

    For those of you who have stumbled through your career from industry to industry and job to job without real rhyme and reason, how do you know what keywords to search for when job searching?

    My professional industry experiences are higher ed consulting, nonprofits and insurance.
    My job titles/ roles range from project coordinator to development person to teapot services coordinator….

    How do you synthesize these various experiences and use them as a benefit to showing various skills and knowledge?

  71. Persephone Mulberry*

    Business analysts: what do you actually do? What technical skills/know-how do you need to succeed?

    I have talked with friends about what the direction I’d like my career to go (in a very broad nutshell: process improvement [I have no formal training in this area but it fascinates me and I think I have a natural knack for it], project management, internal communications, technical writing) and I keep hearing “it sounds like business analyst is what you’re looking for” and someone else said “business analyst is a good stepping stone to project manager” but when I look at actual job listings for business analyst positions, they sound highly technical and not at all appealing, but it could just be that these types of job listings get really jargon-y? I feel like I just can’t get a good picture of what this role looks like on a day-to-day basis.

    1. Borgette*

      It does get pretty jargon-y! In my experience BA roles fall somewhere on the the spectrum between Analyst and Project Manager.
      I’ve worked with BAs that develop and deliver analysis, managing a lot of their own ongoing projects, along with a dash of process improvement. Right now the BAs I work with handle workflows for a developer/analytics team; gathering project requirements, handling prioritization, and assigning work. Both seem to use tools like Six Sigma and Lean.

    2. Jennifer*

      I can say that at my org, nobody knows what business analysts do. It widely varies from job to job. The ones in my office seem to work on various projects as far as I can tell. Theoretically they are supposed to figure out how to revamp things, but that doesn’t fly well with one manager so I don’t think that happens.

    3. EnglishMajorinIT*

      I was an English major and somehow now have a job as an IT business analyst, so I’m not particularly technical either. It honestly depends a lot on the application you’re working on. I would be sure to look for something that is primarily UI-based. I just switched away from an application like that to what is essentially a financial analytics database (with hardly any direct users), and I’m really regretting my choice. I enjoy finance, but this job is veryyyy technical so far and I’m not sure that I’m going to be all that great at it.

      From what you’ve said though, it does sound like business analysis would be right up your alley. I’ve written several user guides and tons of system requirements, so I would say it’s crucial to have great technical writing skills. You also want to be sure that you’re an effective verbal communicator, as you’re essentially the liason between the stakeholders/end users and the developers. Beyond that, I’ve done some minor quality control work and served as the temporary project manager on a number of occasions. I’ve even done some UX design as a business analyst, which I found I really love.

      Does that help at all?

      1. Future Analyst*

        Not Persephone, but can you tell us more about how you got this job? I was also an English major, and am now working on process improvement and automation, but landed here semi-accidentally. They’re changing my role to be much more content-based, and I’d like to transition to a more BA-type role. How did you market your skills? Thanks for sharing! :)

        1. EnglishMajorinIT*

          I actually started out as a project coordinator for a small IT consulting firm, where 90+% of my job was just taking meeting minutes. I did that for about a year and spent most of my second year writing several user guides. At that point, I asked to be promoted to a BA and they agreed. I worked alongside a senior BA on a project for about 3-4 months and then he switched to another project, which left me as the sole BA. I did that for about a year and a half and earned another promotion, but was still pretty underpaid so I switched companies recently.

          My company was sold on the fact that I could write and communicate effectively. Apparently it’s a rarity in the IT world, so I would definitely emphasize that. Sure enough, the vast majority of my job has been based around communication and general diplomacy. If you have technical writing experience, you’re that much better off.

    4. Library worker*

      We have a Business Analyst at our public library. She does pretty much what you describe, plus she’s been involved in a bunch of IT projects, researching new software to bring in, etc.

  72. Ex Humanities student*

    Hello,

    I’d like your advice / help on an career-related question.

    I met a girl when I was 16 about 12 years ago, and she became one of my best friends (still is). I studied Humanities, as did she. I decided against going into the cultural field because I needed money and because everyone advised me against it.
    I struggled a lot in the job market, I had awful bullshit jobs which payed the rent but were far below my qualifications. It has improved, but I now try to do my best to go back to my first love (transferring fields but not my specialty, which is digital communications). It is very difficult and I am in a adjacent field, but still no luck.
    My friend decided to go into the cultural field. Thanks to determination, luck and exceptional events, she has risen a lot, and is not only quite high up in the hierarchy on one of the most respected cultural institution, but she is also sought after as a creator (think playing music yourself if you are managing artists) now, which is something I have always wanted to do.

    While I am happy for her, and I know it isn’t a zero sum game, the comparison is just very hard to accept. When I see her now, I feel awful for days. I feel mediocre at best, I feel I wasted years and talent just because of fear, bad advice and circumstances.
    My boyfriend tells me I let myself be consumed by ambition, and he may be right, but it is still… a terrible feeling, and I can’t shake it.

    How do you deal with career failure this way ? How do you cope with the feeling you are not bringing that much to the world, especially when you see what you could have been ?

    1. CheeryO*

      I’m your age, and I’d say that the majority of my friends and acquaintances are still figuring things out, career-wise – not to take anything away from your friend’s accomplishments, but she’s an outlier, and you shouldn’t use her as the bar for comparison. Most people are not lucky enough to have a storybook career, no matter how hardworking they are. You haven’t failed or wasted your life – you just went through what sounds like a very normal amount of bumps along the way and still have some work to do to get into your preferred field.

    2. Lumen*

      Hi there!

      I feel you. I have been there, and to tell the truth, I started feeling like a failure around age 15 and kept myself feeling that way for… oh, at least another 15 years. And let me tell you! All the time I spent thinking about where other people were at and all the circumstances and choices that led to me being such a Failure led to success, great relationships, and oodles of happiness! I achieved goals I’ve had since childhood and gave back to the world what I know I was meant to give.

      Or…not.

      What you’re feeling is pretty normal, especially around the age it seems like you are. You’re in transition (age wise but also specifically career wise, as you described it), and one of the ways we (I mean ‘all humans’) figure out if we’re doing okay is by comparing ourselves to our peers. Also, tell your boyfriend that ambition is not a bad thing, so he can either figure out how to support your goals or he can keep his mouth shut, but he can’t gaslight you into thinking that ambition, itself, is wrong or bad. It ain’t.

      So: your ambition is not the problem. Your instinct to compare yourself to peers, especially a similar friend, is problemATIC but is not something you can magically make your brain stop doing.

      What you CAN do is recognize that creating a detailed and vivid narrative where you are a Failure and this is your Fate is proooobably not going to help you make a successful, connected, world-serving, happy life. You sound like you’re a creative person, so crafting a narrative like this is so deep in your wheelhouse you can do it without thinking. So start thinking really specifically about the story you are telling yourself… about yourself.

      You are not, at your essence, a Failure. You are the hero of this story. Your choices and background are unchangeable, but they do not define who you are and doom you. They are the challenges the hero overcomes. Your future is completely unwritten and undefined and what you accomplish will be all the better because life did not work in your favor to make them happen for you; you had to pull them from the maw of the dragon.

      This is your new mantra: “No thanks, I’m focusing on my own s**t right now.”
      – When you’re looking at jobs and they aren’t as high-status as someone else’s, say “No thanks, I’m focusing on my own s**t right now.” and apply for the ones that interest YOU.
      – When you get an offer that is lower than you think someone else is making, say “No thanks, I’m focusing on my own s**t right now.” and negotiate for the salary you want/need.
      – When you make something and it’s not as good as someone else’s, say “No thanks, I’m focusing on my own s**t right now.” and then make your own s**t.
      – When you get lost in the story of regret and ‘wasted years’ and how you’re too scared and you listened to the wrong people and you made the wrong choices and all these things have stacked up so high now that you’re so far behind and you will never, ever, ever make anything good out of your life, yell out loud, “NO. I am focusing on my own s**t right now!” and put all that shame and regret and self-recrimination into a dumpster, set the dumpster on fire, and push it down a hill*. It is not serving you. It is not helping anyone. It is not making the world a better place. It is 9000% useless to spend time on that. Find something useful to do with your time, and I really recommend two things above all else: 1) donate your time to aid others and 2) do something creative.

      If I sound intense, it’s because I am only just getting to the point where I can own any of this myself. I really want you to climb out of the Pit of Despair and GO FIGHT WIN, because the more time you spend looking backward or beating down on yourself, the less time you have left in life to do the things you know you were put on earth to do. Half of this post is me talking to myself, too.

      *PS please do not literally put anything in a dumpster, set it on fire, and push it down a hill. That is dangerous. I was using a metaphor.

    3. Michael Carmichael*

      First: you have not ‘failed’ in your career, at least not based on your story above. The thing about ‘failure’ (quotation marks because I don’t think it’s the right term here, I don’t believe it’s ‘failure’ when you don’t achieve things you don’t really want or aren’t really able to achieve) is that when things are hard and you struggle, you learn an awful lot, not only about the workplace and human nature and the world generally, but about yourself and what you are good at, not so good at, what you value. You are learning a ton right now that will come in handy later. You are in a totally normal place for 28.

      However, I think you need to stop looking at her and start really looking at you. Envy is terribly corrosive. I’d try to focus on you, and actively, physically if possible, reject any comparative thoughts – close your eyes and banish them. What do YOU want? Take steps to get there, even if it seems like a long trek. I remember being 28 and thinking that if I didn’t have it all together by now, it was hopeless, and I was out of time, which is complete crap, I can tell you now from age 50. If it’s mostly career related, reading this board is the best thing you can be doing, it will give you advice on how to position yourself to make the move into your chosen field.

      I really empathize with your situation because I feel like every one of my good friends is so accomplished (they are all high-earners with many degrees and renowned in their fields), but I have learned that the truth is, I didn’t really want to be in those positions or I’d have made it happen. I am far less accomplished but in many cases happier – the higher you rise, the further you have to fall also, and the older you get, the more you realize this, which is in itself stressful. It helped me to untangle what I was supposed to want from what I actually want. I hope this all makes any sense, and I wish you well!

      1. Michael Carmichael*

        Haha, Lumen’s post is so right on, didn’t refresh before posting! Especially the part about rejecting the narrative of ‘failure/wasted years/if only’ – excellent advice. KILL IT WITH FIRE.

        1. Lumen*

          *high five*

          Also, +1 to the fact that envy is not benign. It is corrosive and will not chill out calmly in your brain. It will turn toxic and hurt your success, your creativity, and most of all your relationships. Comparison happens; envy is what happens when we fixate on it and cast other people as the ‘haves’ and ourselves as the ‘have-nots’. It hurts us deeply and it destroys our ability to connect with others. Run far, run fast from that kind of thinking.

    4. Panda Bandit*

      You’re not a failure! Please don’t compare yourself to her: you can only compare yourself to your past self.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I agree with what everyone has said here so far.

      But let’s go the opposite way for a moment, because these nagging feelings of failure are tough to shake off.
      I have a theory that we are supposed to feel the sense of failure from time to time. It serves to remind us to push ourselves along. So when failure nags again, say to yourself, “What am I willing and able to do TODAY that will help me to up my game?”

      Now. You push yourself along PLENTY hard. I can see that from here. All you need to do is add longer term INTENT to your step. I know, it’s tough to remember to drain the swamp when you have to fight off alligators all day long. And I do understand that. Keep your longer term goal list short, so you don’t have to write it down and it’s easy to recite off the top of your head.
      This is an example from my own life.
      I was at Toxic Job, but I made okay money. I could see that one of the pitfalls of the job was that people finally got okay money and they blew through it. I made my longer term goal list of five things. New car, house, get control over my health issues and two other things. I could recite my list without referring to a piece of paper. I tell you, there were days where getting through the day was a major accomplishment and I could barely remember that I even had a goal list. Other days were better and I would go back to working on the same goals.
      The key here is that I just kept returning to the goal list. I hit 4 out of 5 goals. I realized in order to complete my degree I could not remain in the job as the job was just too draining. I got the money set to one side, I found a cheap way to get a degree from a decent school then I just went for it. And that was my fifth goal.

      Set midrange goals, these are shorter term goals that will not take the rest of your life to do. Use simple statements to define your goals so that you can remember the goals on off the top of your head.

      I wanna talk about fear, bad advice and circumstances.
      Fear. Without fear we cannot have courage. Courage is what we do in spite of our fears. You have courage. You already have had many times in life where you had to go through fear and do something anyway. You know how to do this. There are different levels of fear. Helping a dying parent. This one is not going to play out well AT ALL and we know our worst fears will become real. Applying for a job that is a bit of a reach. Unlike the dying parent fear this fear is different. There is a small to medium chance that this might play out okay, it does not have an preset conclusion. We don’t know if we will get the job until we go through the process.

      A good rebuttal to fear is good self care. Take walks. It is so simple yet cumulatively it can be so beneficial. Eat good meals. Get decent rest, even you cannot sleep lay in bed and listen to calming music. At least your body is taking some down time, even if your mind is still running. Do those things that you know comfort you and help you to reknit.

      Bad advice. Of the three this is the easiest one to fix. Look at the person talking to you. Do you respect their opinion? Do they have basis for saying what they are saying? Can you confirm it with another person whose opinion you also respect? When my washing machine broke here, I talked with people who had bought washers that they were happy with. I did not talk to the people who were UNhappy with their new washer. People who have had success on a given topic are the best ones to go to. (I ended up with a modestly priced washer that I am VERY happy with.)

      Circumstance. Every time I tried to do something I was faced with yet another dying parent. This is why setting midrange goals and good self care are so important. It’s an endurance contest out there. Life routinely throws curve balls and if it’s not a curve ball, it’s worse. It’s a volcano or a hurricane or something even huger. It’s not a waste of time to develop habits that help sustain us. I learned to do breathing exercises that I could do anywhere to help myself remain calm while the (figurative) volcano exploded. (Okay, I did not remain truly calm but I know for a fact I was better than I had anticipated.) It’s best to assume that there will always be some type of thing going on that will derail us. And that is why the goal list is important. We deal with the problem then we go back to the list.

      Last. It’s not too late. We know this to be true because you are still here and still kickin’. No. It’s not too late at all. Matter of fact, you could be right on time. Trust the universe to be kind to you, if for no other reason than it hurts too much not to trust the universe.

    6. ten-four*

      You are getting good advice from other folks so I’ll keep it short: your boyfriend telling you that your problem is that you’re too ambitious is dead wrong. Ambition is awesome and its a core fuel for all high achievers. Your next task is to plan out some steps on how to realize your ambition, not to pretend that you never wanted the life you envision for yourself.

  73. Social media introvert*

    One of the things I help with at work is maintaining our Facebook page. When I started, we somehow had it set up so that you could just log into an account that was set up just for that purpose, but it appears that Facebook is cracking down on that and is going to require me to assign a personal account as an admin or editor in order to be able to post.

    This is a dilemma for me because I’m big on separating personal and work stuff. Even if I post under the page name, I’m not entirely comfortable having my personal FB linked to my company’s page. I keep my account locked down and i don’t post anything particularly private, but still. We have other people who are willing to have admin or editor access, but I don’t want to be unable to help with this anymore.

    The thing is, I already have an account under my real name that’s tied to my primary non-work e-mail address. I was thinking of making a new account that’s just for doing stuff like this, but I don’t want to run afoul of Facebook’s TOS or anything.

    Thoughts? How would you handle this?

    1. Ex Humanities student*

      I would just create a second work profile under your name. It is not really against Facebook policies, and I know a lot of people who do that in order to separate their work and their personal life.

      1. The Person from the Resume*

        Actually it is against FaceBook’s policy for an individual to have multiple accounts, but people do get away with it.

        Facebook is a community where people use their authentic identities. It’s against the Facebook Community Standards to maintain more than one personal account.

        If you want to represent your business, organization, brand or product on Facebook, you can use your personal account to create and manage a Page. Keep in mind that a personal profile is for non-commercial use and represents an individual person. Learn more about converting your profile to a Page.

        If you’re using your profile to represent something other than yourself, you can convert it to a Page. If you’re a public figure, learn about allowing followers.

        If you have 2 or more accounts, learn how to move your information into a single account. You can also add another name (ex: maiden name, nickname, former name) to your account.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        That’s what I do! I have an account with my first and last name that is attached to my company’s Facebook page and is completely politics free.

        Then I have another account with my first and middle name that is my ‘anything goes’ FB :)

        1. Social media introvert*

          This is a little tricky for me because I go by my middle name both at work and socially. So I’m not sure what name would be best to use on a new “work” account.

          1. Detective Amy Santiago*

            Hmm, well… for me, I made it so that if anyone googled my first/last name, they wouldn’t find anything remotely objectionable.

            So my initial FB, and the one I use primarily, used to be Amy Santiago but then I changed it to Amy Lynn and created a second profile under Amy Santiago that is connected to my work stuff.

            Could you use Lynn Santiago as your professional one and then something like Lynn Ess or Lynn San for your personal one?

            1. Social media introvert*

              I don’t really want to give up my “real” name (that is, my middle name and last name) for a professional account that won’t be used for much. My Facebook is already super locked-down and hardly used, so objectionable stuff isn’t really a concern. I’d resent having to change the name on my account.

              I wouldn’t mind using my first and last name for a work account. It might just look a little weird when no one uses that name except my mother and the IRS.

              1. KayEss*

                Usually the page doesn’t even show the names of the admins, and you can reply to comments and messages “as” the page, instead of as an individual. So the work account can be otherwise completely blank, and no one except other admins will know. I had a blank Facebook account to be a backup admin at my last job, and no one cared except the one time one of the other admins didn’t know who I was and removed me… but an email to her took care of that.

                For the name thing, the important part is it has to be sufficiently related to your legal name that if Facebook for some reason calls your bluff (unlikely, but possible) you are able to “prove” via identification that you’re a real person. You really don’t want to get in a situation where all the admins of your page have had their accounts closed, it’s a huge pain.

          2. CAA*

            I know it’s against Facebook’s TOS, but this is one instance where I don’t even feel the slightest bit guilty about violating them. Make up a completely new first and last name that sounds like a real person, get a company provided email address for that fake person, then create a new Facebook account for her and use it to administer the company page. The advantage of this is that the account can be passed along to a new employee if you leave or get promoted without disrupting anything on the Facebook side. It provides consistency and continuity for the company’s followers.

            1. Bagpuss*

              Yes, I administer out work FB. The name of the person whose ‘personal’ page is linked to the work one is the name of a former owner of our business. He died in 1873, so I don’t suppose he’ll mind!

          3. bluelyon*

            I have admin control over our facebook account since we solicit donations there but I have a fake fb account with my (very common) first name last name and work email. My fake account has no info other than my org and I’ve made it as un-searchable as possible.

            It’s a different picture than my personal one so I can check which I’m in at a glance. FB may not like it but they shouldn’t have set up the system to not allow corporate control over corporate pages if they didn’t want people to do so.

    2. a-no*

      I personally think that you are entitled to your private life and if it is a work requirement, make a profile linked to your work account and don’t feel guilty. I look at it that Facebook’s rules mainly exist for people to not make a million accounts and spam people and use the site inappropriately. Using it as a business tool is a different but if you feel weird about it – you could also create a account for your work and use that to work on the page.
      We have a Teapots Inc ‘personal account’ as well as a business page that’s linked to our reception email as no one I worked with wanted to link the personal with the business page.

      1. Social media introvert*

        I would like to do a generic shared account, but I think our IT department isn’t crazy about the idea because of how Facebook is set up and the risk of getting locked out of the page if the admin account gets banned.

        I’m leaning toward trying to make a new account even if it’s technically not allowed.

        1. nonegiven*

          Use your same name, use your work email. There are so many people with the same name on Facebook it’s hard to find the one you want without an email or being a friend of a friend.

    3. Notthemomma*

      I would have your employer create a “teapots.facebook@company.com” email address so that it isn’t tied to YOU at work, then if you move on or another person assists with that function, the transition is easier.

      1. Social media introvert*

        That would be ideal, and we already have an email like that for that exact purpose. But I think our IT department isn’t very agreeable toward shared FB accounts, and the possibility of getting TOS’d based on having a fake name on the account itself has occurred to me. In any case, we should have enough people connected to the account that losing access shouldn’t be a problem. But it’d be ideal if we didn’t have to use personal accounts at all.

    4. Rookie Manager*

      My team used to all use their personal accounts to post on our services facebook page. This lead to huge boundary issues. When I took over I set up a firstname teamname account linked to my work email and asked any of my reports who needed to use social media to so the same.

      Facebook algorithms are clear we are the same people (people you may know for the new account included half my family) but there have been no issues.

    5. EddieSherbert*

      If it helps, they aren’t “connected” in any visible sense. Only other admins for the account can see the name of who posted something on the page. The general public won’t see any connections (outside of that you “like” it or it’s posts, if you choose to like it).

      The one thing I didn’t like was that my manager was the original admin for our Facebook and we had to be “facebook friends” for her to be able to invite me to the page as an admin.

  74. Misophonia Misery*

    This is so petty but I have to get this off my chest… My desk neighbor has developed the habit of smacking her lips at random intervals. Every time she does this it puts a shiver up my spine. I now have to have an earbud in one ear at all times and I resent it immensely. I’ve been sitting beside her for over two years and she only started doing this recently. Why??!

    1. Lazy Cat*

      Maybe she has a new friend or partner who does it? I know my partner and I have small things like that transfer from one of us to the other. I’m sorry, though.

    2. Camellia*

      Maybe a new medication that causes dry mouth? That’s what happened to me and my husband had to call me out on it. Now I keep water around to sip, and occasionally chew gum (quietly!) if it gets really bad. But at least I’m aware of it and TRY to prevent/control it. You may have to mention it to her.

    3. Merci Dee*

      I had a similar problem with the last girl who worked in the cube next to mine. She was a gum popper, and it drove . . . me . . . . insane. I had frequent and vivid fantasies of jumping over the top of the cube and kicking her gum (along with all of her gum-popping teeth) right down her throat. Needless to say, that was one fantasy that I never indulged in.

      But I feel your pain.

    5. Argh!*

      Maybe she has a slipping denture. If she doesn’t, you should absolutely ask her if she does!

      I used to have a coughing coworker who insisted she wasn’t sick and didn’t need to to anything about it. It was supremely annoying and distracting.

      I wish I’d known how annoying lip-smacking is. I could have tried combatting the coughing with some well-timed lip-smacking.

      Though in hindsight, I think our other coworker was even more annoying. She was the Food Nazi I have complained about, and she ate lots and lots and lots of vegetables, but apparently has not heard of Bean-O. She worked behind a divider wall and the rest of us didn’t feel we could say anything to her…. because we were (silently) laughing so hard!

    6. Kuododi*

      For quite a long time I was dealing with low grade lip tics and hand tremors as a side effect of an anti nausea med I had been taking for quite some time. The situation made me look like I was in the early stages of Parkinson’s Disease. Cleared up almost overnight when my internist switched my medication. I’m sympathetic to the situation…but I am unsure of any practical solutions to the problem. Unfortunately as much as I would like…the only person I can control in this life is myself. Best wishes…. I have faith in you!!!

  75. Anon For This*

    Earlier this week was the official last day of the founder of the program I work on. He’s been stepping back slowly over the past ten years (first from program director to another internal role, then to a part-time consulting role, and now finally to being done completely). He came in to drop off his badge and credit card and etc. and nobody was here to shake his hand and say goodbye (except me, but I’m not who he wants to see — he reasonably wants some recognition from the big bosses and old colleagues).

    There’s a lot of history there, including multiple large-scale parties at each stage of his stepping down AND lots of bad blood — he openly disparages the current program director and other staff. He was also asked if he wanted some sort of public celebration and he declined. So there’s good reason there was nothing planned… but it was still sad and awkward to watch him sort of wander around with no recognition today.

    1. Kathleen_A*

      Ooooh, that does sound bad. We had an analogous situation at my church – a pastor who came, caused lots of turmoil (much of it counterproductive as well as unpleasant), and ended up leaving to move across the country, all with little acknowledgment. I couldn’t even force myself to listen to her last sermon – I knew she would be unpleasantly martyr-like, and from what I hear, she was. But even so, it was…awkward and a little sad.

  76. Sled Dog Mama*

    This may not be work related enough, if so please delete and I’ll post tomorrow Alison.

    I think I may have done something that going to bite my personally at work.
    As I’ve said previously I have a daughter who died as an infant due to an unknown illness (literally the geneticists at the Cleveland Clinic looked at the results and went “We’re sure it’s genetic but we’ve got no clue what”), I also have an almost 4 year old daughter. I work at two sites for my company. Most of my co-workers at the primary site are aware that I have two kids but only talk about one of them, and I’ve learned from my supervisor that everyone pretty much figured out this meant one had died very young. My newest coworker has been here about 6 months so she started after the anniversary of my daughter’s death last year when I was a total wreck. She is definitely the office loud mouth and right about everything, I wouldn’t go so far as to call her a busybody because she’s not prying just loud and talks a lot more than other coworkers. A few days ago I showed some coworkers (including her) a picture of something my older daughter did (totally normal in my office to share the occasional adorable kid photo) and she asked if little one is my only child. Usually I say no I have two, but for some reason what came out when I opened my mouth was yes she is my only.
    Ok so it’s not bad and it’s my choice to share or not but what do I do when she inevitably realizes that I sometimes say I have two kids but told her I only have one?

    1. fposte*

      I think this is absolutely work related, for a start.

      What do you *want* to do? I think in some ways you have two children and in some ways you have one, so either is a perfectly legitimate answer and I wouldn’t hold an inconsistency against you once I understood. If you say “Two children” in another context and she questions it, if you say quietly “I have only one living” most people are going to let that go really fast.

      I think this is a bigger emotional issue on your end, very understandably, than it is in office communication terms, so I’d encourage you to identify your family how you please and not really worry about this.

      1. Conflicted and on the fence*

        Yes, this – there is no “right” way. You handle this YOUR way. Try not to stress about it – both answers are legitimate and the answer can change depending on the day. Grief sucks. I am so sorry for your loss.

      2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        THIS. However you want to classify your family is entirely up to you. Both cases are true. So you have nothing to worry about.

      3. Thlayli*

        What fposte said. Both scenarios are true. Also, as someone said downthread she’s very unlikely to get annoyed with you about “changing the numbers”. she’d have to be some a-hole to get annoyed with you about that.

        Also, she may well not even remember. I’ve spoken to loads of my coworkers about how many kids we all have and I can only remember how many kids 5 of them have. It’s just too much info to remember about too many people. If she overhears you talking about 2 kids some day she will probably just assume she got mixed up and forgot how many kids you have.

        Also, I don’t know if I’m reading something into it that’s not there, but you definitely don’t need to feel guilty in any way for not telling her about your daughter who has passed. You dont have to share your memories with anyone you don’t want to. You can even outright lie to her if you want because you don’t owe her any info about your personal life. what you say to her does not have to be the truth of your feelings, so please don’t feel like you “should” have mentioned your daughter at all. You have done nothing wrong to her, or to your daughter, by not mentioning her.

        1. Sled dog mama*

          Thank you. I probably did feel a bit guilty because I decided a shortly after her death that I am a mother of two but in the moment I just didn’t feel like getting into it.

    2. Laura*

      I’m very, very sorry for your loss. I think you can tell her whatever you want. If she has the poor taste to ask you directly about it you can just tell her that you had a child who died young and it can be difficult to talk about it. If she doesn’t get the idea to butt out after that….well, that’s her problem. You can definitely walk away from that conversation.

      1. Woo Friday*

        I think it would be a bit unfair to write her off for having poor taste for asking depending on how it came up. It could just come up organically, if she often says, “My two children.” In that situation I might assume I misheard/misremembered the first time, and ask for clarification. Sure, that’s not ideal, but asking coworkers about children isn’t totally uncommon, particularly if they were just mentioned.

      2. Thlayli*

        Yeah I don’t think it’s “poor taste” to ask how many kids someone has. That’s a very common conversational topic, especially if you are already talking about kids.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      Sorry for your loss.

      Say whatever makes sense on that conversation, or you’re comfortable with in the moment. Most people won’t notice.

      For example, I usually include my brother who passed away when I talk about my siblings (I have five, haha), and the conversation rarely goes beyond that… but the couple times someone has noticed the discrepancy in something I say, it’s usually a genuinely curious “Oh, I thought X?” and I just say “yeah, my oldest brother passed away a few years ago” and the conversation moves on.

      I’ve never had someone annoyed/rude/act weird about me “changing the numbers” based on the context. And quite frankly, they’d have to be a pretty awful person to be rude about that!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      “In general conversation I may say I have two kids. Sometimes it makes more sense to answer a question in the context of what is going on right now, so then I may say I have one child. ”
      Maybe consider adding:
      “But I do have two children. One here. And one forever in my heart.”

  77. LDN Layabout*

    What do you do when you can prove someone’s lying to you?

    A co-worker made a mistake, was told to correct it…and didn’t. Until he heard me discussing with someone else that something looked wrong and sneakily corrected it in the file, so when I checked the file it looked right.

    Except…I keep copies of the files I send to be processed. And I could see the difference right off. And I can also see what time the file was last saved.

    In this case, I reported it to our manager just to vent (we’re reporting to the client and it ate up another /hour/ of our contingency and if we’re late in reporting, there are 5 figure fines associated with it) and while we won’t call him out on this specifically, he will be watched a lot more closely.

    I’d just like to know what other people did in this situation.

    (I also want a strong drink, a hot water bottle, painkillers and chocolate)

    1. Engineer Girl*

      Argh. I had a report like this. She had falsified some test results. I reported it to my manager and had to redo her work. Eventually the report did other things. She transferred out of the group when my manager started firing procedures. My report filed false HR charges against me in order to deflect. I wonder what would have happened if I had not kept great documentation.
      You reported it, and he is being watched. Good.
      Keep all documentation and look for any new instances.

    2. Argh!*

      Part of the reason I’m dying to escape my job is the amount of lying that goes on. My manager and Grandboss have favorites, usually people they’ve known for 15-20 years. They will believe anything an old-timer says over what someone with less time in says. This has cost a coworker his job, and I’ve been reprimanded for things that are either untrue or carefully expressed by the other side to put everything on me.

      I’m glad to hear your organization doesn’t appreciate lying. I don’t think a lie would ever be punished where I work.

    3. Woo Friday*

      Honestly, this seems like such a small thing in most contexts (people forget things and make mistakes, assuming this is a one off by him, as opposed to a pattern of bad behavior), but it sounds like in your work context it could be end up being a serious cost.

      It seems a bit odd to me that you’re in cahoots with your manager against your coworker – are you senior to your coworker, or at the same level? I think ideally your manager would call him out on it, in an understanding way. “Jane noticed that you forgot to make the changes to the X file, and then did it after. I understand things slip through the cracks, but our stuff is very time sensitive and important, so we really want to avoid this.” I’m not sure what the benefit of *not* bringing it up is.

      1. Engineer Girl*

        Forgetting to do something is small. Lying about it is big.
        If there are regulations and disclosures it is big.
        It is not a small thing.

    4. Thlayli*

      This has happened to me a few times – not the exact scenario but coworkers saying they did or didnt do something to files which isn’t true. Each time I made sure our manager knew about it (both to clarify that it wasn’t my fault and to let them know what coworker was like). Each time manager accepted the info and commiserated with me, buy coworker didn’t get in any immediate trouble (no actual harm done in any case) but manager factored the info into future dealings with them.

  78. Definitely Not Me*

    I had an unexpected blow-up with a new employee yesterday. Now I need to figure out the best way to deal with the situation in the future. I had lunch with this employee and a male colleague. Afterwards she told me that she was so uncomfortable that I would have included a married man in our lunch- how wicked and unprofessional of me. (It’s not exactly that, so don’t get too hung up on the example.) But in the upcoming months we’ll be in this situation again- a lot. What do I say? I have something that says roughly “I’m not going to debate with you why I feel this is acceptable, just like I don’t want you to debate with me why you think it’s not. But since it’s going to come up again, let’s figure out how to handle it.” Do I tell them I won’t be including them in business lunches? They’re offsite meetings so it would be weird to just, what, leave them in the conference room with a PBJ?

    1. LCL*

      Not everything needs to be discussed and resolved. You hold these lunches? Your conversation with her should stop and end at ‘lunch will be served in the great hall at noon.’ If she is this volatile, this probably won’t be a continuing problem because she will get herself fired.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Are you her supervisor? If so and the lunches are business related, someone needs to tell her that her attitude is inappropriate.

      If you aren’t her supervisor and they are business related, ask her supervisor to address it.

      If the lunches aren’t business related, just don’t invite her again.

    3. Annie Mouse*

      If it’s something that’s industry normal for you (you said that your example wasn’t exactly right so for instance having lunch with the CEO in my organisation would be a bit weird but in others would be perfectly normal) then maybe tell her that regardless of her personal views, this is industry standard and while she is welcome not to take part if she so wishes, you won’t tolerate her telling other people including yourself that they can’t or shouldn’t do it. If that makes any sense given your situation.

    4. WellRed*

      Alison had a script for a similar issue. The one where a co-worker thought the OP was eating lunch with a man was inappropriate but it was her husband.

    5. Argh!*

      You don’t have to address personal feelings on either side. You can just say “This is the way we do things. There were no consequences, were there? There won’t be next time, either.”

      If she complains again, perhaps a little Shakespeare would work: “Get thee to a nunnery!”

    6. Bea*

      Waaaait even though there were two of you, it’s inappropriate that the third person is a married man? Am I supposed to be segregating lunch rooms now? I understand someone coming from a 1 on 1 perspective (yet will never not dine with a married man and my partner can indeed dine with other women despite our commitment to each other.)

      God bless this woman, she’s new to your company and hopefully to another one soon enough since she seems to butt heads so firmly so early on.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Are the off-site meetings a requirement of the job? If yes, I would let her know and ask her to figure out what she needs to do here.
      If you set up PBJs in the conference room will you have to do that each time a meeting involves her?

      I don’t go for the name calling at all. Let her know that she can ask questions about things but she is not to call anyone, including you, any names.

      I think I would bring in the boss at this point and let her know what I am planning to do with this.

  79. Should I forgive my high school bully or stop him getting a job?*

    So, I received a facebook message a few days ago from someone who bullied me badly all through high school for something I cannot help.

    For context I have a disability that affects the way I walk. It’s rare and identifying but think something like cerebral palsy. As such I walk with mobility aids and have done since I was quite young. All through high school this guy mocked me and several times hid my walking aids when I was sitting down, in the classroom we were in there was not enough room for them to go next to my desk so I would get to my desk and then the teacher would take my aids lean them against a wall and give them back at the end of the lesson. Several times he hid them or ran off with them (despite being yelled at by teachers). He also tripped me over a lot, I am a 5 foot tall woman with a physical disability he is over 6 foot tall and able bodied. He was horrendous to me and made my high school life hell even more than it would have been with my painful disability and health issues.

    Now I am in my twenties in my final year of uni, I am graduating later than planned due to the fact I needed several operations over the last few years. And out of the blue I received a facebook message from him apologising. It was not one of those non-apology “I am sorry if you were offended” types he took direct responsibility. I didn’t reply but I was convinced…now it turns out he has applied for a highly paid management job at a company in our home town. The CEO/owner of this company is my uncle. It doesn’t take a genius to work out what prompted the apology. My uncle and I have different last names but there is a display in the entrance to his company HQ showing his charity work with disabled people, I am in several of the photos and it may even mention I am his niece (I don’t know). But I suspect he saw the display when he went for his first interview and put two and two together.

    After talking to some friends who know both of us I have found out his Mum is sick and he needs to get a job in this area to care for her and his ex-girlfriend and their kids live nearby. Most of the jobs in his sector are in London if he wants the same job in our hometown it has to be this job with my uncle’s company. He has gone through to the second round of interviews and has a decent chance of getting the job.

    I don’t work for my uncle and have no reason to be in the HQ and therefore no reason to bump into him. However his daughter, my cousin who I am very close to does. She is head of HR and knows I was badly bullied in high school but I do not think she knows the details enough to know the name of this guy. I could torpedo his chances at getting this job very easily. And a big part of me wants to after all he put me through (I was even hospitalised once after he tripped me on purpose). Should I let it go? And I entitled to ring my cousin who I know would immediately put his CV in the bin?

    1. Potatoe*

      Honestly? I’d tell your uncle. This guy was directly responsible for you being fricken hospitalized, and if it were me and my company, I’d want to know if I were hiring someone who horrendously bullied my niece, apology or no.

      Also, even if the apology was heartfelt and well written, it doesn’t really change the fact that he had years and years to apologize to you and only chose to do so when it would have some kind of material impact on him.

      1. LKW*

        This. The timing is too coincidental to be completely selfless. He decided to apologize not because he felt bad. He apologized because he felt bad and knew that he needed to clear the air in order to get a job.

        I mean, you could be the bigger person here. You did say that his apology felt sincere, so maybe he has grown as a person.

    2. fposte*

      Wow, that’s a biggie. I would share in this case–high school doesn’t sound like it was all that long ago, the apology seems to be self-serving, the company prides itself in its approach toward people with disabilities, and there are almost certainly other people with family needs who are also applying for this job.

      If you wanted to be scrupulously fair, you could include the information about his subsequent apology. But it sounds like he’s a pretty questionable fit, so if you want to find a way to think about it that doesn’t feel so payback-y, consider it that way.

      1. Engineer Girl*

        Yes. Give all the info. Then let them decide what to do with it.
        I think the apology timing is suspicious.

        2. EddieSherbert*

          +1 same. I think it’d be best to just present your uncle with the facts and let him decide how/if to address it.

    3. CatCat*

      I am not at all telling you what you should do, this is so intensely personal. Just some questions to think on: will you feel better telling your family or not? Do you think this is data that your family would want to know? Like, could they stand to work with this guy if they knew (I probably could not work with someone who harmed a loved one even if the person was genuinely contrite about it)? Would you be willing to share the full facts with your uncle and cousin (what happened in the past, when you got the apology, what it said) and just let them decide?

    4. LDN Layabout*

      Look at it this way, if he gets hired and then turns out not to be a good fit?

      What are the odds he’d bring this up if he got fired? ‘They’re only doing this because I was a bit mean to ____ at school!”

      If your cousin is also head of HR? That’s putting her into a really hard position if she finds out later. This isn’t like reporting someone to your job and glossing over something, because hey, you might move on some time, these are family members.

    5. stitchinthyme*

      I’d tell them. The apology sounded sincere, and maybe it even was, but the timing makes it extremely suspicious; I have my doubts as to whether he ever would have apologized if he weren’t trying to get this job, no matter how sorry he might actually be. His own life circumstances are unfortunate, but then so were yours, and he still chose to make your life even more difficult than it already was.

    6. Stormy*

      The timing is SOOOO suspicious and seemingly manipulative, it’s almost worse than no apology at all. I’d tell for that reason alone.

    7. Millennial Lawyer*

      I would say something. High school was not that long ago relatively, and this speaks directly to his character. Companies have an interest in making sure their employees are of good character and do not impose any sort of legal liability. If he had apologized a long time ago, and was completely unconnected to his job search, I’d say let it go because people do have the capacity change. However you do not have that evidence right now, and it comes off even worse for him that his apology might be entirely self serving.

    8. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Would he have apologized if he wasn’t looking for a job at your uncle’s company? The timing suggests to me that this is the sole motivation for his apology. Given that I suggest you have a chat with your cousin.

    9. Pollygrammer*

      Judgement can improve with age, but character is character. Anybody can write a sincere-sounding apology when they need something.

    10. Anono-me*

      You need to tell your uncle about who this guy is.

      I don’t think you should call your uncle and say; please don’t hire this guy, he was mean to me in high school.

      I do think you owe it to your uncle and your cousin to give them very important data about someone that is applying for a job at your uncle’s company. And don’t sugarcoat it. This person verbally and physically abused you in high school to the point that you needed to be hospitalized. (And I am infering that putting you in the hospital didn’t cause this jerk to wake up and stop.)
      This person could still be a chronic abuser of people he perceives to be less powerful and more vulnerable. It should be your uncle’s Choice as to whether or not his company should be taking this risk. But it won’t be his choice unless he has the information.

      Although to be perfectly honest; if you were my niece and I found out about how this person had behaved to you. I wouldn’t hire the Jerk, even if I had a hundred percent gold-plated guarantee that he would never act like that at work.

      1. Should I forgive my high school bully or stop him getting a job?*

        The context of my being hospitalised was that he tripped me at the end of the school day and I feel awkwardly but I got up again and later in the day my legs started to hurt more and more and I was hospitalised in the evening. I was not carried out of school in an ambulance of anything.

        Naturally my parents complained to the school but it wasn’t on school property so they were useless (as were the police who we also complained to as they said there was no proof other than my word he tripped me).

    11. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Are you comfortable sharing the contents of the apology with your uncle and cousin? I’d probably send it to them in an email giving context.

      “I got this apology a few weeks ago from BULLY NAME and I just realized that he’s applied for a job with your organization. I initially thought the apology was sincere, but now I am suspect given the timing so I wanted to bring it to your attention.”

      2. Bagpuss*

        I’d agree. Speak to your uncle, give him the full picture: the bullying at school, the apology, and the information you have about his family and needs.
        Let him know that you are happy for him to make whatever decision he feels best, (assuming you are!) including choosing to hire this guy.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        This is the route I would go. Give your uncle and cousin the info and then walk away. Let them decide for themselves.
        People give each other information on potential hires all. the. time. Nothing unusual about you doing the same.

        If you were my cousin, I would want you to tell me. I would be concerned for you, if you did not tell me.

        I know for a fact that I have made comments to a boss and a candidate has dropped down or off the interview list. It happens.

    12. Former Govt Contractor*

      I’m with the others. This wasn’t that long ago, and it sounds like it was some pretty serious bullying, not just a one off. And c’mon, a 6 foot male picking on a small disabled girl? That’s pathetic.

    13. Anon librarian*

      If I thought he was sincerely remorseful, I would mentally accept his apology and do nothing to help or harm his candidacy.

      You are certainly entitled to tell your HR cousin, but I personally would not, especially given his circumstances. People do change.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        You don’t think the timing of the apology is at all suspicious? He had several years, at least, to make the effort, and yet he does it only when he’s applying for a job at her uncle’s company?

        Yes, people can and do change. But I’m skeptical about whether that’s actually the case here.

    14. Myrin*

      You sound like a kind soul, Should I forgive, but I do want to say that you certainly don’t need to feel sorry about his circumstances when he couldn’t be bothered to feel sorry about yours not that terribly long ago. I’m so sorry you were treated this way and I hope you have your disability in check at the moment. Im with the others – tell your uncle and your cousin. Sometimes things we do come back to bite us, and this is such a situation for him; he should have thought of that before he was so cruel to a weaker person.

    15. Yorick*

      The timing of the apology seems suspicious, but applying for the job with your uncle may have prompted him to see how bad his behavior was.

      You can tell your family about this, but also tell them about his message. Telling them should be about letting them make the best decision for the company, not to take his chance of the job away. Tell them so if they do decide to hire him, they’ll have a heads up if he starts acting questionably.

      1. Yorick*

        I mean that he may not have thought of you for some time but then the uncle’s name reminded him of you and he thought “wow, I was a major jerk”

    16. soupmonger*

      There was an AAM letter not so long ago from a woman who had bullied someone at school, and now found herself unable to work at a really desirable employer because the bullied person had told HR of the bullying. HR told the potential applicant woman she would never work at the company because of the bullying – the company stood behind their employee.

      Don’t think of this as family-oriented. Any decent company would stop a bully being employed to work with someone they’d bullied. Tell your uncle now, and stop this guy in his tracks.

      The AAM letter’s response was basically that this bully showed what she reaped. Tough, but fair. Same with this guy. Then try to forget him and his well-timed apology.

    17. Totally Minnie*

      I want to point out that forgiveness is not a “Get Out of Consequences” pass. If you believe his apology to have been sincere and you want to forgive him on a personal level, I think that’s wonderful. But that doesn’t necessarily have to go hand in hand with being comfortable having him in your life again, even in an indirect way.

      I think you should tell your cousin everything, the bullying and the apology, and the weirdness about the timing. Tell her you’re not demanding that this person be blackballed, you just wanted her to have all the relevant information. Let her use that information to inform her decisions moving forward.

    18. Artemesia*

      If this were the usual silly kids tiff it would be one thing i.e. a guy you didn’t get along with or someone who was mean once BUT this guy was outrageously awful to you. This is not a good person. I would tell your uncle in detail that he tormented you throughout school and be very specific about both the making fun and the stealing and hiding your walking aids. Let there be karma in the world; let him find another job in your city.

    19. Thlayli*

      I would absolutely tell your cousin. You are thinking that if he doesn’t get this job he can’t support his mother and kids. Not he case. He can get another job. He can stock shelves in Tesco. He can learn what it’s like to struggle like the rest of the world. This is not the only job in your hometown, it’s just the one he wants the most. He does not deserve it.

      1. Thlayli*

        Also, you would be doing your uncle a favour letting him know what kind of person he might be employing. He could bully people in your uncles company. What if he gets involved in the work your uncle does for people with disabilities? He could knock another little girl over (this is the bit I can’t get over – a 6 foot tall guy knocking over a 5 foot tall girl is unbelievable, regardless of disability/ability.) I highly doubt anyone who could do that as a teenager has grown into a lovely person; people don’t change that much. Proof being the timing of the apology – only when he sees a potential benefit to himself.

        1. Been There, Done That*

          +1

          My high school bully wasn’t anywhere approaching this vicious or sustained. I still am in touch with a lot of people from that small community and while she’s gotten much better at hiding her bullying behavior, she still is one. She can put on an amazing performance to seem apologetic and reformed, but she has found someone to torture in every workplace/social group she’s in for decades.

    20. Temperance*

      I would absolutely tell your cousin and your uncle about this. His resume can absolutely go into the round file.

      I’m sure that his apology was self-serving. There was actually a letter a while back from the bully in your situation.

      1. Should I forgive my high school bully or stop him getting a job?*

        I saw that. I was wondering if the situation was different because I do not work there and have no reason to be there. I currently live in London and my hometown is in Scotland so basically I’m at the other end of the UK for about 3/4 of the year (as a student I return home a lot during holidays). While I seem to remember the bully in that letter was applying for a job in the same company in the same area as their former victim, I also remember that bully showed their true colours as the update involved them admitting they had screamed at their former victim in public and was still sort of blaming her for everything that went wrong in the letter. Which again (along with the timing) makes me wonder how sincere this guy is. Since his thought process may have been the same.

        It is of course possible he saw the photographs in the entrance area or was somehow else reminded of me and in retrospect genuinely regrets his treatment of me. But the timing is very suspicious, also this isn’t something that happened decades ago. I graduated high school in 2012.

        1. Thlayli*

          He was knocking small disabled girls over as recently as 6 years ago. I very much doubt he has changed a huge amount in this time. He does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.

        2. soupmonger*

          He might regret doing it now, but only because it suits his purposes. I’d tell your uncle and cousin, and move on.

    21. AngelicGamer aka that visually impaired peep*

      OP, I was bulled in high school and had my cane (my eyes basically) hidden on me a few times. If I was in your position, I would be telling my uncle and cousin ASAP. I don’t care how nice that apology was, he could decide to do some low level bullying to a child or another person with a disability while representing your uncle’s company.

  80. Tea*

    I’ve been feeling very, VERY anxious about my work performance at my new job, and it’s stressing me out and causing me to lose sleep. Basically, I work an office administrative/client support/front desk job, so I’m responsible for most client communications and also processing all the paperwork for the office. Lately, the paperwork has been mounding up, everything my plate is projects that would take an hour or two of my time while I’m getting pulled away by the phones and client interactions constantly. Things have been slipping and I’ve not been as on top of various tasks as I should be, but at the same time I’ve been working 9-10 hour days and unpaid overtime just trying to keep it together and kind of failing.

    A couple times now, I’ve had coworkers question me on why I haven’t tackled X or Y task, including one who does pretty much exactly the same thing as me, but more. She’s also my trainer and manager. Her words were, “You keep saying you don’t have time… I don’t understand. Why don’t you have time? What are you even doing?” and it just makes me feel like I’ve really, really screwed up somewhere along the way.

    I’ve started keeping daily logs of how I spend my time, though it’s a little difficult given the “constantly interrupted” nature of my job. I’m not futzing around for hours or not working constantly, but the projects and paperwork are still sitting.

    I haven’t figured out yet if there’s just too much on my plate or if I’m just hugely inefficient or not getting enough done or what, and I’m dedicating myself to spending the next month to wrapping up as much as I can and getting a better handle on things, but in the meantime, any advice on what to do with this awful anxiety that I’ve got sitting around in my stomach 100% of the time? Or any scripts to gently push back on comments about my time management without seeming like I’m not getting anything done?

    1. misspiggy*

      In a role like that, it’s useful to ask to shadow coworkers doing similar duties for a day or two. That might reveal useful approaches, or show that your workload is heavier. It will probably be expected that you do your project work in small chunks of time between interruptions. Have you been able to do that?

    2. fposte*

      Recast the logs as a time audit–it takes you x time to do emails, x time on average to handle a client interaction, etc. Then go to your manager and ask what time you should be shooting for on those and how to get them down; I really like misspiggy’s idea about shadowing somebody experienced to see just how to do them more efficiently.

    3. Linzava*

      I’ve been there in almost every job I’ve had, some worse than others. In admin work, a lot of jobs are a series of never ending tasks.

      I recommend going in early one day, getting a notepad, and going through all your paperwork. Look through the paperwork and write down each task on the notepad. While going through the paperwork and tasks, try to organize the papers in a way that makes sense to you. On the notepad, put squares to check off to the left of the tasks you intend to complete that day. To the right, mark the deadline due date based on if there’s a deadline or make one up if it’s for one of your direct bosses. Don’t put a due date for stuff that doesn’t need one.

      As you are assigned tasks, add them to your notepad and check off completed tasks. At the end of each week, make a new list only with your uncompleted work.

      As you learn the job, tasks will come faster. Staying organized is the only way to overcome such a large volume of work. Good luck, it will click for you soon.

    4. Mm Hmm*

      You sound really conscientious. You need to stop working unpaid overtime. I understand the impulse to stay to make headway on your work, but unless you’re exempt (unlikely given the front desk role) unpaid overtime can get both you & the company in hot water.

      Ask to sit down with your manager & review priorities & your time/task log. Shadowing her might be great. Having her at your desk with you shadowing might bring up things she hasn’t known or noticed about the current version of the role, e.g. how often the phone rings or visitors arrive or other staff ask things of you.

      But don’t let it fester, & don’t work unapproved, unpaid overtime. Hang in there.

    5. Thlayli*

      When I get overwhelmed I find it helpful to schedule a meeting with my boss, and go in with a list of everything on my plate and an estimate of how long it takes me each week (for ongoing tasks) / how long I estimate it will take (for projects). Then tell him the order of priority I think they should have, and ask if he agrees. Sometimes he shifts the order, sometimes he tells me to hand something over. Sometimes he tells me I’m spending too long on something and I need to do it to a Lower level of detail, then he will answer my questions to help me figure out the level of detail. He’s never said “tough, you just have to do it all now”.

      Unless your boss is a sociopath, they will recognise that you only have so many hours in a day, and they should have a good idea of how long things should be taking. So try this.

      (If your boss is a sociopath look for a new job).

    7. JKP*

      Do the coworkers who comment answer the phone and work the front desk? I remember one admin I job I had where people used to make comments about how slow the receptionist was with the admin work and how many mistakes she made. But those of us who covered for her on her lunch breaks and days off could point out how much slower we were and how many more mistakes we made in her position. If I covered the front desk for a day, I maybe got 1/5 of my normal work done. Those interruptions are killer. Even if a phone call only takes 5 min, it takes a few minutes to figure out where you left off and get back in the flow of what you were doing.

  81. LivingNexttoMyEx-Manager*

    Should I tell my former manager I moved to her neighborhood?

    I am going through a divorce and moved to an apartment on the side of town where my ex-manager lives. (We are actually just across from each other, separated by a fairly large city park. She and I have a good relationship for the most part, but there were some rocky times. She could be a pretty bad micromanager (among lots of other new-manager mistakes–not realizing her reports can’t be her friends, for one) and took it extremely personally when I moved on to a great opportunity with the same employer. Things were weird for a few months (our work still overlaps) but have settled down almost a year later. I actually like her better now that I don’t report to her.

    So the question is: Should I pre-emptively reach out and say “hey I live close enough to you that we’re likely to use the same grocery store or gym”? On one hand, I don’t necessarily want to get into the WHY for moving to that side of town. On the other, it seems like it would make sense to do? (I was aware that the place I rented is very close to her before I took it, but decided that shouldn’t factor into how I plan my life.)

    What do you think? Tell or don’t tell?

    1. Amber O.*

      I wouldn’t, but that’s the antisocial introvert in me. I’d want to keep that part of my life separate from my home life, and if you do happen run into her in the area- which is probably unlikely, I never see my neighbors at the local stores or businesses- just act like it’s a surprise! “Oh, I didn’t know you lived in the area!” or “Oh, I didn’t realize you still lived close by!” would cover you just fine and you wouldn’t need to go into the details of why you moved in the first place.

    2. Stormy*

      Noooooo. Don’t tell. So many possible snafus. What if she wants to carpool? Act surprised if you see her at the store/gym, make quick small talk, then GTFO.

      1. LivingNexttoMyEx-Manager*

        I’ve read too many AAM’s where carpooling turns into a nightmare! I know better! LOL

    3. Kathleen_A*

      I wouldn’t tell her either. If you wanted to hang out or something socially, that would be one thing. But if your only non-work interaction is likely to be running into each other in the park or grocery store, I’d just let that happen all on its own.

    4. Artemesia*

      I see no purpose in saying anything. If you were in her building or next door, then you might prevent awkwardness by reaching out, but you are across the park. Just no reason to preemptively say anything and in fact it would like slightly weird to do so. If you run into her, you can say ‘oh yes, I just moved in on Fergus street’. and leave it at that.

  82. Linzava*

    So I have a question about dreaming about old jobs. I’ve been at my dream job for almost six months now, but I’ve been having recurring dreams about my last two toxic jobs.

    In all the dreams, I’m somehow, against my will, working at one of the two old jobs again. In the dreams, I always protest, telling them I don’t work there anymore. When I go to my current job, my manager tells me he was sorry when he heard I left, but I no longer work there.

    Does anyone else have experience with dreams like this, and how long did it take for yours to stop? It happens often enough that it’s become a bit distressing.

    1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I think you just can’t believe you finally have your Dream Job. Do you think you are undeserving of your dream job? How long did it take you to get your dream job? did you go on lots of interviews before it finally happened? I think you need to tell yourself “Yes, I am finally in my dream job and I’m no longer at toxic oldJobs”

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This! It seems like your brain is just processing those feelings from your old toxic job and maybe a bit of worry that this one will turn out like the last.

        I’ve dreamed about being back at old jobs, though it’s mostly stuff like I went to the deli where I worked and they asked me to help make sandwiches during a busy rush because I still remembered how, or that a spaceship landed in the parking lot. Or that I went back to Exjob. I did have a dream about Non-ProfitJob (I left there in 2003) last year; I dreamed I was in my old department and it was even more crazy, with twice the people and cubes and ten times the toxicity. But I just chalked it up to a bored brain sifting through old stuff, and I tend to have weird dreams sometimes.

        I think it will fade once you get settled in DreamJob.

      2. Linzava*

        You’re right, I still can’t believe it. It took a very long time to find a professional environment and in addition to a great job, I only work 30 hours a week making more than I did working at the last place at 40 hours. They pay 100% of my insurance and I have my own office doing the goal job I set for myself 2 years ago.

        I still can’t believe how lucky I am. I guess I’m not used to things working out this well. I was worried the dreams meant I had PTSD or something. What you say makes a lot more sense. I’ll just remind myself that I worked for this and have earned it.

        Thank you

        1. Windchime*

          I think that toxic jobs can absolutely give you a type of PTSD. My last job was so traumatic that I honestly thought at one point that I might never be employable again. I was depressed and upset and crying constantly. It has taken me a dozen counseling sessions and over a year at a new, healthy job to feel like I’m healed and OK again.

          And yes, you have worked hard and earned your current situation. When I was feeling stressed after leaving my old job, I would just remind myself that the past is the past, and my new boss isn’t like the old one. I also reminded myself that my work is NOT the most important part of my life; my family is. This is what worked for me; maybe something similar will work for you.

  83. DC*

    I’m just here to vent today.

    Two weeks ago, I asked my boss for a raise. Boss shot me down so fast I got whiplash, and basically told me that I basically never had a shot at a raise cause I was at the top of my “hiring range.” Never mind my additional duties I’ve taken on.

    This week, she went “You know, we should start having one-on-ones. I haven’t been giving you feedback because I didn’t think it was worth it.”

    1. The only thing I’ve ever asked for in reviews is more timely feedback so I can improve.
    2. We had scheduled one-on-ones. She neve wanted to keep them.

    1. ContentWrangler*

      I hope you’re job searching because these are two very clear signs of a boss who cares nothing about you and your career advancement. Sorry!

  84. Nancy*

    The working from home with pets post got me thinking. I’ve been in my new job for 6 months and one of the features I have, is the ability to work from home when needed (bad weather, illness, etc.). This isn’t something I could do at my former job. My home isn’t set up for a office. I could probably find a corner in the guest room for a small desk. I would use the dining room table, but the chairs in there are for short term sitting. I’ve been just sitting with my side table in the living room or putting my laptop in my lap and working from the recliner. So many of you talk about a designated space, I’m wondering if I should put some small effort into it?

    1. anyone out there but me*

      I work 100% from home (virtual bookkeeper/assistant) and I have found that I do better with a designated space. I tried the laptop on the sofa thing, but it was clumsy to me. I am able to focus better in my home office, where I have a desktop set up, dual monitors, comfy chair, plus it is at the very back of the house so it is super quiet (even though I am home alone, back here I cannot hear if someone knocks on the door, etc. so it appears nobody is home).

      I find that I am able to stay better organized in my office. I like to take notes and make to-do lists to keep myself on track (and I like that sense of accomplishment from crossing things off!). Being at my desk gives me space for all my notepads and supplies, and I have designated storage cubbies for everything I need to keep.

      Also, it is easier to separate “work vs. home” this way. I can take a break and put in laundry or whatever, but I have to go back into my office to check emails, or calendar something for my boss…. there is a very distinct separation between work life and home life and I enjoy that. Once quitting time comes, I can shut down my computer and walk away, and not really think much about work for the rest of the evening.

    2. Admin of Sys*

      I find that if I’m working from home for more than a day or two, it’s really useful to have a designated ‘work space’ and properly ‘go to work’ in the morning – getting dressed as if I was going into the office, starting on time, taking an actual lunch break, etc. But for one-offs like ‘snowed in for a day’ I usually don’t bother.
      Mind you, I’m not generally as productive on the days I don’t create my artificial ‘office space’. I’d say honestly evaluate your focus and productivity – if you’re being just as professional at home in the recliner then there’s no need to make a separate space. But if you get distracted by laundry or tv or whatever, then it might be worth it to create an arbitrary ‘work space’ for the house.

    3. Friday*

      Yes, do it. You never know what will come up. We had a natural disaster in my area that had schools closed, roads closed, etc. and husband and I realized damn fast that working all day at the dining room table really sucks. Now we have a nice desk with two monitors and a docking station that works on both our laptops and it’s awesome.

      1. Nancy*

        Okay. I will work on getting a small spot in the guest room fixed up. Anywhere else in the house I feel I will be too distracted.

    4. Windchime*

      My designated space isn’t fancy; I have a spare room that has a bunch of boxes and some extra lamps in it. But it also has a small desk with two monitors and a decent chair (I need to get a better one).

      I work at home one day per week. I usually start out in my PJ’s on the sofa with my laptop, but that only lasts an hour or so. Then I go up to my little office and work with the dual monitors. It’s easier (for me) to work when I can keep a spreadsheet on one screen and my programming on another.

  85. DorothyP*

    I work for a sports organization and just got an email from grand boss that there will be a staff event tomorrow morning. It’ll be a chance to workout with colleagues and higher ups in a more casual setting. I know that I’d get bonus points for going. However, I’m not in great shape right now and I’m unsure that I can do the full thing (I could if I wanted to be messed up for a few days/risk injury) so I’m thinking that I’d like to cut off early. Would that look flaky? I have a family event that day so I figured I could go and say that I have to head off at x time but that I really wanted to be able to at least come for some of it. Especially because I’m at a lower level I don’t want to look weak for not doing to whole workout but I also want to attend.

    1. Conflicted and on the fence*

      I would go and make the effort – you could always say you have a headache or are feeling a bit under the weather, but I think showing up and making the effort is worth it. It isn’t a competition (or at least, it shouldn’t be – maybe for a couple of people it will be, but let those folks take the focus off of you). To me it is more important to show up and be a present and active participant than whether you are in the best of shape of not.

    2. Amber O.*

      Some effort is definitely better than none! I doubt anyone is going to be judging you for seeming weak/out of shape- if they are then you work with a bunch of jerks and you should find a new job – but take it easy and slow so you don’t overdo it/get hurt and show your supervisors that you’re a team player.

  86. KMB213*

    Brief update:

    I wrote in last week’s thread about my terrible job and slow-moving job hunt.

    There hasn’t been any progress in the job hunt, but I did apply to four positions this week, which is what I’d been averaging each month. I have two more applications to submit tomorrow or Sunday. I know that’s still not a lot for some people, but it’s a lot for me! Thanks to all of those who encouraged me to step up and apply more.

    Things at my current job are the same, but, as a new bonus, my boss has started making comments on my weight – I could afford to lose a little weight (I’m a US 12, sometimes a 10, sometimes a 14), but, regardless of my size, I feel like it’s really inappropriate (at least in the US, I learned in this week’s thread on this topic that that is not the case everywhere). The comments were somewhat innocuous (talking about how I should go on a diet, saying how he and I both hate thin people when I have never mentioned thin people, that sort of thing) and I was able to shut them down quickly, but there were four comments this week. He’s made these comments sporadically before, but it’s been a once/month type thing. I don’t know why it was at the forefront of his mind this week!

    1. Blue Eagle*

      I like the comment that someone above said about a different issue – which would be to say to this fellow “hmmm, would you make a comment like that to another man?”

  87. Kramerica Industries*

    There have been a lot of changes on my team recently. Within the past 6 months, 3 people have moved on, and the now-team of 7 has been relocated and scattered across different work spaces (because of overcrowding). Because we’re understaffed, we’ve all had to pick up extra work, which is understandable. I’ve noticed that the team seems to have divided into those who adjust to new priorities, and those who constantly say that they’re too busy to help out with additional (small) tasks that pop up.

    Personally, I’m great at managing my time and try to focus on that, but am getting increasingly annoyed that those who claim to be “too busy”. I feel like this is exacerbated by how our desks are no longer in the same area, so it’s easy to keep your head down and shut out the rest of the team.

    My manager has also taken on additional work so we aren’t absolutely drowning, but I feel like this is taking away from her ability to see that morale is low. Is there any way I can bring this up?

    To clarify, it’s not the workload that is affecting me personally – it’s the non-cohesive team.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think that any work group has those folks who just will not do anything extra.

      OTH, I think you could ask the boss when the team will be located near each other again. As a supervisor, I know I would be all over this one. You may find that she is already working on it.

    2. Alex*

      I work in a field where there’s a lot of cool coding and creation… and an equal amount of dull checking required. When it comes time to check things, we have the exact same divide pop up.

      I find the best way to convince some of the less likely to volunteer folks that it’s their turn is, rather than at a stand-up or via group email ask if ‘anyone’ has time, wander over to them specifically and say, “Hey Judy, I’ve finished this data request and am hoping to send it off by the end of the week. Would you have a chance to check it for me before then?”

      If they’re genuinely busy, they’ll let me know, but half-assed excuses of no time are less likely to come without conscientious team members stepping up immediately.

  88. Snark*

    As a follow-on to my post about my contract getting cut short in May, above: I applied to another job on Sunday. They sent me a link to a screening assessment that was half personality test, half brain-twisting SAT-grade logic questions. I still would take the job, but….HR departments, there’s nothing gained by putting 35 year old mid-career professionals through jive-ass multi-choice word problems. I’ve got a PhD and 10 years of experience. I grew up specifically to get away from bullshit like that. Don’t do it. My ability to run an environmental compliance program does not hinge on my ability to solve “which of these statements must be logically true” problems. Jesus.

    2. fposte*

      And you know they’re congratulating themselves on not relying on that qualitative mush.

      Sorry about the stupid hurdles–hope you find a good prize at the end of the race.

    3. Parenthetically*

      “jive-ass multi-choice word problems” has me stifling snort-laughs. Never change.

      Also, seriously, all the job application juju.

    4. Millennial Lawyer*

      Ugh, I hate that. I recently applied for a fellowship (Extra curricular networking group, not job related) and the application had legit math problems and a personality quiz! I asked someone and they said it was to dissuade someone just casually applying. How ridiculous.

    5. Pollygrammer*

      If you get the job (fingers crossed for you!) take the first opportunity to share how inappropriate and demeaning their stupid screening was.

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      When I was job hunting a couple of years ago, I applied for a position with the title “Executive Assistant Ninja”. They sent me an assessment to complete that was basically logic type problems. I was apparently one of the 10-15% of people who actually passed it so they set up a video interview for me (it was a virtual position). The interview lasted about 5 minutes and she was like “I don’t think you’re right for this, but we’ll keep you in mind for other opportunities.”

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        I applied for a job at CompanyX. After I submitted the application, I was sent a link to take a personality/career assessment test. The other day, I get a message on my phone asking me to call them back to discuss the position that I applied for (now I’m getting excited). I call back and get the person’s voice message. A couple of hours later, I get a “canned” email from this company stating that after careful consideration they feel I’m not right for the position”. Whaaaaaaaaaaat??!! So I call the person back again and leave a message basically asking “What’s going on”. I’ve not heard back

    7. Elizabeth West*

      I hate those things. I had one forced on me for an admin position. None of the questions (general knowledge) had anything to do with what the company did. I have more than ten years in this field; what the hell. I withdrew my application, because the hiring manager was also a weirdo. Plus, I failed all the math questions because of course I did. >:P

    8. Plague of frogs*

      Oooh, I love logic questions! This sounds awesome. I hate personality tests,though, and always feel I am failing them. (True story: in elementary school, we were graded on our ability to socialize. I consistently got a D).

      But seriously, it’s a stupid way to hire and I’m sorry you’re having to deal with it. I hope your contract gets extended, or you get an even better contract, or you write a kick-ass cookbook that makes the bestseller list, or some other happy ending.

    9. Weyrwoman*

      To be honest, these days if I apply to positions and run into one of those stupid questionnaires, I stop the application and look elsewhere. I’ve seen local retail BigBox stores use them and inevitably there’s a question about “would you steal office pens”, and I just. I guess it removes the chaff, but no one in their right minds would answer yes to that question, even if they do in fact steal office pens.

      1. Artemesia*

        EVERYBODY steals office pens (not by the box, but certainly they all take a pen home sometimes)

        1. kimberly*

          I have never met an office pen worth stealing.

          I have, however, inadvertently “donated” the nice pens I buy on my own and bring to work because office pens are crap.

          1. Book Lover*

            I finally ran out of the drug rep pens I got in medical school and my secretary ordered me some lovely pens, including a super fine point sharpie. It makes my day every time I reach for one of them :)

  89. Princess Daisy*

    Does anyone else ever dream about how satisfying it’d be to go back to an old, toxic boss just to tell them how much everyone loves you at your new job? (yes, I know that would never be a good thing to pursue!)

    My experience in my current job has just been SUCH a 360 from my last job. I just want to go back to Toxic Job/Boss as say “Look at me now! They love me here and you missed you! You were wrong about me ALL ALONG!”

    Too much? :)

    1. Annie Mouse*

      Not a toxic boss but one job where my supervisor and I didn’t see eye to eye in terms of how much work the position involved, how little work life balance I should have, how criticism should be given etc. They didn’t like that I had an occasional weekend job (think one or two days every couple of months) and thought I should have stopped that (my actual boss didn’t have a problem with it).
      That occasional job is now my full time one and I am so much happier. I would love to come across her and just go ‘you know that thing you thought was a waste of time? Oh look, this is what I do now.’

    2. Pollygrammer*

      Oh, I am right there with you. Although I also fantasize about a simple “You are not a good person. I feel like you need to know that.” :)

    3. Sled dog mama*

      I have this fantasy with the job I was fired from. Going back and saying see all those things you told me I’d never accomplish I have.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        Not back to a toxic job, but to those places that DIDN’T hire me. I would love to go back and ask them “so, how does it feel to throw away a winning lotto ticket??”

    6. Weyrwoman*

      I’ve done this! I moved from a retail IT-type job to an actually IT-in-an-office job, and I would purposely go out of my way to shop at the retail store in my corporate clothing and have chitchat with coworkers about how valued I was at the office, while my horribly sexist exgrandsboss was around.

    7. Louise*

      I fantasize about running into old toxic boss and throwing a drink on him. God just thinking about him makes my blood boil.

    8. Starley*

      I won the lottery on this one. My last boss was awful. Constantly negging me, berating me for things that were objectively not a big deal or even my fault. My self esteem was in the toilet by the time I finally realized I could and should leave. My new boss, who is a fairly big deal in our industry regionally, and I were at a conference and we ran into her. New boss went on and on and on and on and ON about how wonderful I am, what great work I do, how she almost feels bad that they snagged such a great worker out from under them. My old boss looked like she wanted to vomit. It was beautiful. I cried happy tears in my hotel room that night.

    9. periwinkle*

      Not enough! You also need backup dancers and maybe some graphs on why Toxic Boss sucks. “In this graphic we see your integrity rating compared to those for an exemplary leader, a typical manager, a rabid wallaby, and a puddle of unidentified green goo.”

      At times I have longed to return to a particular workplace, go find my former boss and grand boss, and give them copies of all the papers I wrote during my masters program about the effects of poor management on productivity and job satisfaction. “See what the professor wrote on this one? She was truly appalled! Oh, and this one… this was a good one. Remember what happened with that pointless quality initiative? It was my best paper ever! You two were truly an inspiration… ”

      Perhaps it’s a good thing that I moved to the other side of the country since leaving that job.

    10. Ramona Flowers*

      Yep. And want to add: and I’ve told them all how awful you were and they ALL think you suck.

    11. valc2323*

      I sort of got to do this? I had a previous boss who was not toxic, but wasn’t terribly compatible with me. We had some very uncomfortable conversations about my terrible performance and my potential future with the company. A few months later, he moved on, I stayed. When I left two years later, no one wanted me to go because of the hole it would leave in operations — and I hadn’t changed a single thing about my performance after those conversations, just who I was reporting to.

      His was an internal transfer; so was mine. Ran into him in the elevator lobby about six months ago and he was falling over his feet to tell me how he wished he could hire me again and I’d be such an asset to his new team.

      Nope. We’re big enough I never again have to work for you, dude.

    12. Windchime*

      YES!!!! OMG, your post is so funny. Over the course of my career, I had constantly received top marks on all of my reviews, usually resulting in a nice raise and sometimes even a small promotion. At my last job, it was the same until my final year, where apparently I turned from a stellar employee to crap, according to my horrible manager. So I left, and fast forward a year to my new job and my most recent review. Apparently I am once again an awesome employee. I was SO TEMPTED to send a copy of my review to my crappy old manager! I didn’t. But I wanted it.

  90. Conflicted and on the fence*

    I could use your advice.

    I have a decent job with great pay and fantastic benefits (pension, health, PTO) but the new management of more than 2 years and I just are NOT in sync. I am well respected in my overall field and corporate environment, but in my local workplace, we just haven’t hit our stride. My position is limited at our other campuses – so I can’t transfer.
    Its a very, very niche field.

    I have the opportunity to become a partner at a small consulting firm – it might be a small hit in salary, but likely bonus potential, and I would be partner with profit sharing. They have healthcare but not as good and its a small company – I could create my own hours but I would anticipate working much longer hours than I am now. It’s just scary because its more “self-employed” which has it’s advantages and disadvantages versus my public sector, pretty secure job with its cushy pension that is stressing me the heck out trying to please bosses that have no respect for what I do (when really, I am one of the best in my field in my area.) They just don’t understand the job because it is so niche and they aren’t used to it and are stuck in their own stressful environment – its hell for everyone.

    I don’t know what to do – I am so torn. Can you help me with your thoughts here?

    1. ItsOnlyMe*

      As I get older, I really value personal happiness more and more. My instinct would be to go for the new job if your current job isn’t making you happy.

      Is there any way you can take a one year leave of absence? I know with public sector jobs in Canada, that is sometimes an option and would allow you to try a new position while having your old job still available for security should you want to return.

    2. Lizard*

      Is the buy-in significant? That is also important to consider. How long would you need to stay to recoup your investment?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      In accepting the job, part of the decision will be your determination to make it work.

      If you can find that place in your head where you decide “I am going to run it to the max. I am going to do everything I can to make this opportunity turn into a great one” then I’d say go for it. (Maybe you have St. Elmo’s Fire or similar running through you head as you think this, that would be a great sign.)

      While you are still contemplating here, review the info on the new job. Do you have everything you need to make a good decision, or as much as you can expect to have? Sometimes indecision stems from not having enough facts.

  91. stitchinthyme*

    (Sorry this is so long. TL;DR: trying to figure out the best advice to give a young female coworker in a mostly-male workplace about how to handle working with guys who can be jerks sometimes. Specifically, I have trouble figuring out how much of it might be her being oversensitive vs. me being long accustomed to ignoring or minimizing things that maybe I shouldn’t.)

    So – I’ve worked as a software engineer at my current company, which basically makes both software and hardware, for nearly five years. There are about 40 people in the company and only six women — two software engineers, two hardware people, and two admin/office manager types. After almost 25 years in this industry, I’m pretty used to being the only woman, or one of the few, in my work groups.

    The other female software engineer, whom I’ll refer to here as Jane, was hired about a year ago right out of college. (This was also pretty unusual; my company normally only hires more experienced people — she was the first entry-level person they ever hired.) We bonded pretty quickly even though I’m 20+ years older, partly because she’s a really nice person, and partly because we’re the only two female developers in the company.

    A few months after she got hired, Jane came to me to vent because some of the things our male coworkers said were getting under her skin. She didn’t give me too many specific examples, and I hadn’t noticed anything in particular…but then I have hearing problems and don’t always catch everything everyone says. I am pretty sure it was nothing legally prohibited (like sexual harassment). I think some of it may have been her being a bit oversensitive, but knowing the guys, not all of it was.

    A couple of examples: her main mentor (I’ll call him Fergus) criticized a bit of her code; when she said that’s how she’d been taught to do it in school, he replied that how you’re taught isn’t always the best way in the real world. I personally wouldn’t have been offended by that if it’d been said to me. Another time wasn’t at work at all: I invited her to one of our gaming nights, and Fergus was there too, as well as some non-coworker friends. At one point Jane disappeared out to her car for a good 15-20 minutes; I thought she was taking a phone call or something and we played a filler game while we waited for her. Later she told me that she’d gone to her car because of something Fergus said. She didn’t say exactly what and, although I was there, I either didn’t hear it or it just didn’t register to me as something that was upsetting (I’d have called him out if I thought so). Fergus tends to have kind of a deadpan style, and it can be hard to tell when he’s joking if you don’t know him well.

    After she talked to me about these things, I talked to a few of the guys (including Fergus) and also to our boss, and (as I had suspected) no one had intended to offend her; they thought they were treating her the same way as they treat each other. I told her to call them out when they said something that got to her; she seemed receptive to that. Since she was new and young, she didn’t want to rock the boat, but she’s also not the meek and cowering type, either. I later found that she did talk to one of the guys who upset her at the time (let’s call him Jake), and didn’t think she made a lot of headway in making him understand why she was upset.

    Anyway, things settled down for the most part after that, until a couple days ago when she came in to my office to vent again. She said she had just had to lead a meeting about something she’s been working on, and that Jake (the same guy she’d talked to before) kept talking over her and arguing with everything she said, to the point where a couple of the other guys finally told him to shut up and let her talk. She also said that she’s noticed a difference in the way the guys treat her; I suspect this may be because they know how upset she got last year and they’re being more careful around her, but to her it’s coming across as them disliking her and not respecting her.

    Thinking about all this, I realized that on the rare occasions when I have to attend meetings (I avoid them if I possibly can), I am always very quiet because I’m used to being talked over. If several people are talking in a meeting and one of the guys interrupts with a point, the others shut up and let him talk. If I do that, it’s like I didn’t say anything — they just keep on talking — so I’ve learned not to bother, and I only talk when someone addresses me directly. The difference is, I don’t give a crap; I work to live, not the other way around, and although I like most of my coworkers, I feel no need to be friends with them, nor am I particularly interested in advancement — I like where I am and what I do. So I mostly keep my head down, do my work, and go home to my real life. I like my coworkers for the most part, but I do see their faults and I can understand why Jane is angry at them.

    So I’m not sure how to advise Jane on her situation. She feels like when she pushes back, it doesn’t make them respect her; it just makes them think she’s difficult or sensitive or a b***h. (The perennial problem of women in the workplace.) And I do think that both Jane’s age and gender have a lot to do with it; I doubt the guys mean to treat her differently because she’s young and female, but unconscious bias is a powerful thing. And she hasn’t grown an “I don’t give a crap” attitude like 20+ years in the field have given me. I’ve grown too jaded about this kind of crap to be able to easily see the situation through the eyes of a young woman just starting out who’s eager to prove herself.

    Talking to our boss would be totally useless, btw. He’s great with technology, but a lousy people manager. When I talked with him about this last year, he basically said he thought she needed to grow a thicker skin. And I’m not sure any of this rises to the level of “actionable by HR”.

    For the record, my gut feeling is that the actual reality is somewhere in the middle between the two extremes of “Jane is being oversensitive” and “the guys are disrespecting her”. I think in the instance where Fergus criticized her code, for example, she overreacted and his assessment was not something that should have offended her (although with the caveat that I can’t speak to what his tone was when he said that). But when Jake spoke over her in the meeting to the point where others had to intervene, it’s totally understandable that she’d be angry and upset. (She said she would talk to Sam, another guy who was in the meeting and who she and I both trust to give an impartial opinion — he’s a genuinely good person who wants her to succeed — to get a reality check there. I don’t know if she has done that yet.)

    If you’ve made it this far, thanks for reading. And if you have any words of wisdom I can share with Jane, they’d be appreciated. It might just be that Jane needs to vent every now and then and doesn’t need help fixing things, but I don’t want to overlook something I can do to help (or advise her to do).

    1. Colette*

      I think both are probably true – she’s taking offense at things that are not offensive, and some of the stuff the team is doing is disrespectful.

      With respect to “how you’re taught isn’t always the best way in the real world” – this is true, and an important thing to learn on a first job, and (although it could have been explained better), is not something to get offended over. When you’re getting paid to code, you are getting paid to match the style and practices of your employer, not to do it however you want.

      However, the constant talking over women (you and Jane) is sexist and needs to stop. Honestly, you’re in a better position to stop it than she is since you have more of a history – but it will involve either calling it out in the moment or having a “big picture” conversation about it in advance.

    2. LCL*

      I think there are modern books that Jane can read about this. My perspective is that of someone who is at the end of their career, so some of this is out of date and probably borderline offensive, but this is what has worked for me.

      You (Jane) have got to learn to separate the personal from the professional. A critique of your work, if fairly done, is not personal even though it is about you specifically. Talking over you in a meeting isn’t personal, but it does affect your profession, so keep pushing and speaking up. You’ve already got some people on your side, DON’T ask for their opinion on if you are out of line! Never do this! You don’t want or need a referendum on how much you should be talking. Do tell them that you thought Jake was being a PITA, and ask for their techniques on getting the Jakes of the world to stop talking.

      For you personally OP, I know you are trying to help and gave her some good advice. But stop doing informal investigations trying to figure out peoples’ intent; that will blow up on you. It is great to listen to Jane and tell her if something she describes doesn’t sound personally directed at/against her.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        For what it’s worth, I do think I shouldn’t have talked privately with the guys last time, and I haven’t said anything to any of them this time, nor do I plan to unless Jane asks me to intervene or mediate. I can only say that I was trying to help. I like Jane and I want her to succeed here, not only for her own sake, but because we have far too few women in the company and I’d like to see that change.

        And the idea of talking to Sam about what happened in the meeting was Jane’s; I wasn’t there and he was, so she thought that this might be a good way to get the opinion of someone who was actually there about whether Jake’s behavior was over the line. (Based on her description of other people shutting him down, I tend to think it was, but again, I wasn’t there.)

        1. LCL*

          I didn’t say this in my earlier post, but good on you for staying in tech and trying to help a coworker instead of pulling up the ladder behind you.

          1. stitchinthyme*

            I find it a little depressing that apparently this is such a common thing that people feel the need to commend me for not doing it. I can’t imagine *not* wanting to help, let alone wanting to prevent other women from succeeding in the workplace. Is this really that common?

            I admit that I am not ambitious. I like to code, and have never aspired to do anything else. I make a good salary, I enjoy what I do, and my personality and temperament would make me entirely unsuited to, say, management. But even if that WERE my goal, I still can’t fathom wanting to hold others back in order to advance myself.

    3. she was a fast machine*

      I definitely think that you’ve learned to adapt to the culture and that Jane isn’t just being over-sensitive; she wants to be treated as an equal, and you haven’t been, but the difference is that as you said, you’re jaded and you don’t care. You’ve been in the world a lot longer than she has and have had to put up with more than she has, so it makes sense that you’ve developed a thicker skin to stuff that is truly offensive/annoying/microaggressions.

      I don’t have much you could say to help Jane but I do feel like it’s relevant to the culture shift that seems to be happening with tech where their insanely inequal practices are coming to light and being revealed and hopefully turned around. New people like Jane are expecting to be treated a certain way, and if companies can’t learn to ensure that all employees behave in a certain way to ensure equality, they’re going to lose people like Jane, fair or not. I’m also wary of the culture that your company might have with only hiring more experienced people (i.e. people who are accustomed to the way tech culture has been, and don’t notice or contribute to the environment that is making Jane uncomfortable).

      It might be relevant to explain to Jane that since you’ve been in the industry so long, you’ve become accustomed to how things are, good or bad, and you have difficulty seeing what might be clear to Jane. That could lead to explaining to her that you’re available if she wants to vent, but if she wants help problem-solving you’ll need specifics of what she’s seeing/thinking.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      Ugh, I probably fall somewhere in the middle of you and Jane on level of acceptance of this and have fully experienced all the issues you have to deal with myself.

      I do have some advice on being talked over in meetings. The best advice on this is for Jane to find one male coworker who can be her advocate. She can have a separate, private conversation with him along the lines, “Jim, I have noticed that when we are in department meetings, people ignore what I say/interrupt and talk while I’m talking/suggest my ideas as their own. I’ve noticed that you tend to listen to my ideas, and I need your help. When people talk over me, can you help interrupt them and ask that they let me finish speaking?” Ideally, if you were listened to and respected in meetings, this person could be you, but it sounds like it may need to be a man because you avoid meetings and they are rude to you, too. Additionally, if you or a man can ask for Jane’s opinion on the meeting topic before the meeting ends, that helps ensure women’s voices are heard. Suggest language like, “Jane, we haven’t heard from you yet. What do you think about [x]?” (This goes for all folks who aren’t heard–introverts in an extrovert culture, women, underrepresented minorities, etc.)

      1. WellRed*

        This makes me a bit uncomfortable, asking a man to help her. She needs to learn at some point to advocate for herself and that’s where stitch could help with some advice.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          I’m only passing on what has been shown to work and recommended by experts on women-in-male-dominated fields, not something I invented. I agree with you and understand what you’re saying, but there is some chicken-and-egg going on here. She can’t get them to listen to her in order to advocate for herself. The intent is to get the behavior/culture change started, and then she can advocate for herself.

        2. Rainy*

          Except stitch says that she doesn’t go to meetings and when she does, she doesn’t talk, because she gets talked over. So her advice is probably not going to be super helpful for someone who does need or want to go to meetings and then speak up when she’s there.

          1. stitchinthyme*

            Yeah – Jane is definitely more outgoing than I am. And I am well aware that my approach (avoidance and indifference) is not the best one for everyone.

    5. Engineer Girl*

      Fergus correcting Jane sounds OK. He gave great reasons for his position. No gendering there unless it was tone (and there is no evidence of that)
      Jake is classsic misogynist. He is discriminating.
      The real issue is lack of respect for tech women. That means the woman is assumed incompetent until proven otherwise. So men will talk over, mansplain, interrupt, etc because they don’t respect the person. And in tech, respect for the coworker is key to getting things done.
      Jane need to call him out in the moment. “Jake, I’m leading this meeting and you need to stop interrupting me.”
      “Jake, that’s the third time you’ve interrupted me in the last 10 minutes. If it happens again I will ask you to leave.”
      Then she needs to report the incident to Fergus. Not only is it gender discrimination but Jane is being prevented from doing her job. Fergus should care about that part.
      Also mention to Fergus that the criteria for discrimination is “pervasive”. There are multiple events with witnesses. Fergus should loop HR in anyway if only to seek guidance.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        Clarification: Fergus isn’t her boss, or mine. He’s basically at the same level as me (a developer), but has been mentoring her because the stuff she’s been working on is in his area of expertise. Our boss is…hands-off, to put it charitably. He really doesn’t like people coming to him for…well, for just about anything. I got a mild ding in my first performance review for asking him for more things to do — I had not been there long enough to “just know” what needs to be done. From then on, I’d just web surf if I didn’t have anything else to do. Anyway, he’s great with the tech and nice enough as a person, but he really isn’t a very good people manager. Jane says he also mentioned something similar on her performance review (that she came to him when she should have found someone else to ask a question). So it’s kind of understandable that she’d be reluctant to talk to him.

        As for HR…our HR service is shared with couple of other companies, and I’ve never heard of anyone going to them with actual work-related complaints; they only seem to handle benefits and that kind of thing. They do not work on-site. Seems like most times when people have issues or problems, they go to one of three people: the two company VPs (one of whom is our boss) or the president (it’s a small company). They’re all nice and all, but even I, who have been here nearly five years and in the industry for more than 20, would not think of going to any of them unless the situation were really dire (like, I was thinking of leaving over it)…and possibly not even then; more likely I’d just quietly start job searching. So expecting someone young and new to go to them about a problem involving people they’ve been working with for many years? Not realistic.

        1. Engineer Girl*

          Its possible that she needs a new company that actually follows the law.
          That said, she needs to loop on her manager and HR. If the manager dings her on her review then it is also illegal retaliation.
          Jake is keeping Jane from doing her job. That is a clear issue that management needs to address. You and Jane should both report it (makes it more believable, since you’ve both experienced it).
          Alison has often stated that this sort of problem should be framed as “I’m worried this will legally affect the company”. That shows that Jane and you care for the company, not just your own interests.
          Look what happened to Uber. They are now in crisis mode because management and HR did it addrsss systemic issues. It may take down the entire company.

          1. stitchinthyme*

            She didn’t get dinged for going to management about anything related to this — it was a work-related question she was asking, and she hasn’t actually addressed any of these problems with them. And I don’t think her performance rating actually got penalized (nor did mine); the review form just has a section for the manager’s comments about areas where improvement is needed, and that’s where it was mentioned. Like I said, boss just really doesn’t like anyone bothering him about anything.

            1. Engineer Girl*

              Well too bad on the not bothering! Under the law, she needs to tell the manager or HR about the issues. Under the law, the boss can’t ignore it.
              This is a legal issue, not an area that needs improvement.
              The burden is not on the female to turn the workplace into a non-discriminating workplace.

    6. Engineer Girl*

      I’d like to add one other data point. Misogynists like Jake will always call women a bitch. ALWAYS. There is no way any female can escape that label so she may as well suck it up and push back. Jake will rant and try to rope in the other male engineers. He will do it publicly. But if Jane behaves professionally Jake may not gain traction.
      It’s not fair, but empowering. It’s like an emotional manipulator calling you names when you correctly define boundaries. Once you realize that it is them, not you, you can move forward ignoring the name calling.

    7. Thlayli*

      I really don’t get what was offensive about telling her there is a difference between how you’re taught in school and the real work, and I don’t see how that could possibly relate to her gender or age. So I’m coming down strongly on the “oversensitive” side.

      I know some women feel that men talk over them, but some men feel that too. Personally I’ve been criticised for talking over people, and I know it’s fair criticism because I do talk over people. Personally I think it comes down to the family you grew up with more than anything else. I grew up in a big family and we all talk over each other constantly. I literally have to bite my tongue in the workplace to stop myself interrupting people left right and centre, because if I didn’t interrupt as a child I would have never spoken a word. My husband is an only child and is the total opposite – he thinks it’s really rude to interrupt. I wonder if Jane might be an only child and Jake from a big family – that would make more sense to me than that he was talking over her because she was a woman.

      Honestly if I were you I would stay out of it as much as possible. Anyone who gets offended over being told school is not the same as the real world could get offended over anything. So you are very likely to offend her with any advice you give her.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Did you explain to her that it is normal to be told what you learned in school does not work? I think on something like that you could just explain the norms to her. This is a fairly universal comment, many professions will say a similar thing that what is taught in school is not used on the job. I hope you explained this is a normal comment.

      Talking over people is rude, period. When men do it to women, it is hard not to start talking about women’s issues in the workplace because this is a very common complaint.

      Reading down through, your workplace sounds horrid. People who feel they are getting kicked around will not be able to discern which things are actually a kick in the teeth and which things are just part of the workday. Jane sounds like she feels kicked around. Worse yet, no one has her back. She has confided in you and I am not sure you have been able to help her. And you are saying the bosses don’t care and that is a HUGE problem. My guess is that she will leave when the first opportunity presents itself. It’s not up to her to teach everyone workplace manners, nor is it her job to teach people the laws.

    9. Unicorn*

      If you want to help and can go to any meetings with Jane you can try to employ the amplification technique used by women on Obama’s staff. I am one of only two women in our management team and we help each other out by backing and seconding each other’s opinions. It helps. It doesn’t eliminate some people’s attitudes but it helps us get heard. As you have a experienced yourself it’s almost impossible to crack this culture when you are the only woman in the room.

  92. Larval Doctor*

    I’m an academic who just started in a faculty role. Most of my colleagues work from home, but A) I can’t concentrate that well at home and B) I’m junior enough that I like to at least peek into the lab every day. But now that I’m finally spending most of my time writing, I’m struggling to get comfortable in my office. Part of this is that the ergonomics of my office is bad — I have a bad back injury and really need a better desk chair and a standing desk and don’t know whom to ask — but part of this is that I’ve always overcome writer’s block by getting up, walking around, moving, etc. I’ve tried to make my office as comfortable as possible in other ways (snacks, a hot water kettle, npr, slippers (and honestly a full set of comfy clothes) in my filing cabinet, etc.) Because working from home is the norm, I have a laptop instead of a desktop, so I can move around my office, but it’s just not comfortable. I’m typing this while sitting on the floor, leaning against my filing cabinet. I submitted my last paper lying on my stomach under my desk. I really want a comfy chair, but I’m not allowed to bring in outside furniture. I thought about bringing in something that could be small enough that facilities wouldn’t notice, like a beanbag chair or a folding camp chair, but I want to keep my office looking professional. This may be an unsolvable problem, but thoughts?

    1. friday fran*

      Sometimes people in that situation compromise by bringing in some kind of fancy back support for the provided chair.

      One university department administrator told me, oh yes, the department will buy one chair over the course of an academic’s career, and otherwise you can use your startup grant or whatever research grants you get. So you shouldn’t order on line without going to the store and sitting in them, don’t waste your one chair.

      1. Larval Doctor*

        A back support is a decent idea, but in general, sitting in a desk chair just doesn’t work in my life. And I have enough startup funds that I’d buy something if I could. It would totally be worth it. The problem is that I want, like, an arm chair, and I can only use my startup funds to purchase from my institution’s suppliers, which don’t supply arm chairs.

    2. Hobgoblin*

      One of the guys in my office has a back issue and he was able to get our insurance to pay for a standing desk, so that’s a thought.

    3. Monday*

      I have never heard of an academic with a lab who works from home! I absolutely support your wanting to work in your office. Your institution not allowing outside furniture, and at the same time not being willing to provide the appropriate chair, does not make sense. Can you ask the facilities people, or your boss, for clarification on what they are willing to provide, and the rationale for “no outside furniture”? I’m not thinking a beanbag or rundown couch, but an ergonomic office chair even if you have to buy it yourself. Congratulations on your faculty position.

  93. Squeeble*

    I do this embarrassing thing that is probably the most problematic for me at work. I have an eye for clothing design and fashion and my eye is constantly drawn to what people are wearing. Not in a judgmental way–I just notice lines/fabrics/colors like, all the time. But obviously, this can LOOK like I’m looking at people’s bodies in a way I really don’t intend! As a woman, I know exactly what it’s like to have people stare at your chest when they’re talking to you (even unintentionally), and I really don’t want to be doing that or make anyone uncomfortable, especially in a work context. I keep catching myself giving my coworkers a quick once-over when we approach each other and I know I need to stop.

    So I’m making a concerted effort to just look at people’s faces. Anyone else struggle with this and have any tips for how to break the habit?

    1. NaoNao*

      Hm! Maybe a couple things:

      If you’re looking in a positive way, compliment! Just keep it neutral (ie, not about how attractive the person is in that whatever). “Those shoes are divine! May I ask where you got them?” “Great tie, Harry? Is that hand painted?”

      I actually struggle to make eye contact as it feels intrusive and intense to me, so I’ve learned to slightly unfocus my eyes and look at the forehead/nose trick.

      If you want to look to take notice or look longer, just tell yourself you can do so when they are turned away or when they’re not talking to you.

      Finally, my mom told me “Most people are so concerned with themselves they won’t even notice what you’re doing” and it’s proven pretty true over the years!

      1. Squeeble*

        Thanks for this–your comment about unfocusing your eyes and looking at the forehead reminded me that I really like when people are wearing glasses, as it’s a thing that they’re wearing but I can focus on it without being weird. I struggle with prolonged eye contact too, so that helps!

    2. Murphy*

      I can relate! Someone walked past me yesterday (she was walking down the hall when I was coming around the corner, so I had to pause to let her pass) and I noticed her dress and shoes (both positively!) and I immediately became self-conscious that someone would have seen me “staring” at her.

      I’d say if you like someone’s clothes/jewelry, call it out! Most people will enjoy the compliment, and if someone noticed you looking at them, you have a quick explanation.

      1. Nita*

        I struggle with that actually! I never know if it’s weird to compliment someone on their clothes, even if I think they’re wearing something awesome. Like, if I start doing that, should I say something Every. Single. Time I see someone snappily dressed? Is it weird if I say that to some people but not others? Will it make them wonder if what they’re wearing is not quite office-appropriate since it got noticed?

        So then what happens is, someone will compliment me on their clothes and I’ll feel bad because I didn’t say anything about their nice outfit… but I still can’t get past my doubts about when to say something, and when to stay quiet.

        1. Murphy*

          If you were doing it on the daily, it might be a bit odd, but occasionally it’s not weird at all.

          Otherwise, it sounds like you might be overthinking it. (From one overthinker to another!) If anyone compliments you on your clothes, they’re likely not looking for a compliment back.

      2. Incantanto*

        I had an awkawrd one where I saw a woman with the most amazing red boots and I stared a bit too long.
        She then muttered at me for staring at a trans woman, Tbh I hadn’t even noticed: the shoes distracted me.

    3. Snark*

      As a guy, I may have navigated these waters a time or two, except you’re a fashion aficionado and I’m a product of a culture that encourages men to be swine.

      Part of it is just….not. Register in your peripheral vision that there’s something you’d like to look at but choose not to, intentionally and deliberately. Unfortunately, this is a lot of “dammit, stop, self” and it’s kind of exhausting, but eventually it’s pretty automatic.

      If you’re caught, and the person notices you, I think it’s probably not bad to throw a “Oh, I love the material of your sweater” or “The color of your jacket is really lovely,” just by way of explanation. But that’s also not something you can really do all the time, with people you work with every day.

      1. Squeeble*

        Yeah, I agree with you that most of this is just being really deliberate and intentional about not staring.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Most people at Exjob wore jeans and t-shirts, but a few people liked to dress up. Of course I always noticed, and I felt self-conscious for the same reason. One person had amazing dress sense, so I finally just told her, “Jane you have a great sense of style; I always enjoy seeing your beautiful outfits!” She was flattered, and then if I looked at her afterward, she would know I was admiring her clothes.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Why not just let it be known that you have a huge interest in clothing, design, and material choices. Just say you enjoy watching what is going on in the fashion arena.

      You know when we keep things hidden that is when thing grow big. You may find that a couple people talk with you about fashion once in a while and maybe someone will show you something new they picked up. Once out in the open you might find that it’s less of a deal. And it also opens the door for you saying, “Sorry. That was rude of me to stare like that. I just happen to love the fabric/cut on your jacket. I did not mean to be rude.”

  94. friday fran*

    This is a theoretical question so far but might not continue to be. If my employer were to close this small regional office and offer me the chance to do the same office work at home, is that something that they would expect me to see as an advantage/perq or something that I’d want to be compensated for? What kinds of expenses should I ask them to cover? Assuming I have a company laptop and phone already, I thought of a printer, part of the cost of my home internet, what I’d have to do to make my home-office warm enough to work in during the winter, arrangements for storage of papers and shredding, and consumable office supplies as needed.

    Also, would I hate it? Would it be lonely or unproductive? Would I get less exercise and fresh air, or would it be easier for me to go for short walks and eat healthy lunches?

    1. The Person from the Resume*

      Perk. My organization requires that we have an office with a door, but we pay for all internet, phone, power, etc. (They provide a laptop with docking station.) I contrast that to the cost (monetary, time, quality of life) of commuting everyday and dressing for the office and I feel that I come out ahead.

      I do have a friend who’s company pays for her work internet but she cannot use it for personal use so she still has to pay for that separately.

      They might pay for printers (because that’s on the form) but I don’t know of people who request it. I bought a monitor to use with my laptop because that impacts my quality of lie at work.

      So I’d fall onto the side that the company doesn’t pay for any of that stuff except the computer, but that’s just me.

      1. Artemesia*

        IN making a transition from office to home office you should expect them to pay for all necessary technology i.e. the internet, computer, printer etc. If they provided a good office chair at work you might ask if you could bring it home to your home office but the furniture is a toss up. But all technology that is necessary should be paid for and the moment of transition when they are unloading those costs at work is the time to negotiate that.

        I believe that the new Trump tax bill does not allow a home office deduction even when that is your only office, so you won’t have this traditional advantage that makes working at home a bit of a perk.

    2. Red Reader*

      I work fully remotely. My employer provides a computer with two monitors (and keyboard and mouse, though I chose to use my own), but no other equipment or supplies. In fact I’m not allowed to hook a printer up to my work computer. (I work with patient records.) My work phone is a VOIP phone through our office messaging system, for which they provided a headset (but again I opted to use my own).

      Per our policy: I am required to have a desk, a fire extinguisher, and high speed internet. They do not pay for any of those things. (I also would not be permitted to be the sole caretaker of a child under 12 while on the clock, but I don’t have any of those anyway.)

      As to your last question… that depends entirely on your choices. :)

    3. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      It can be really hard for people to tell whether they’ll like working from home. I love it and don’t understand people on here saying that they miss their office when they work from home. (I mean, not that I think they’re lying, just that it does not compute for me that someone might prefer to do work that could be done at home in an office.) But it can be really hard to know whether you’ll thrive working from home as I did or whether it’ll be difficult.

      If you’re a very social person who enjoys water cooler chat and stuff like that, it will probably be harder for you than if you’re a more solitary person. Also, if you work closely with other people and can talk to them in person, your productivity might take a hit if you move to working from home because often email and phones just take longer to communicate over.

    4. Nita*

      It’s normally considered a perk. For some people it’s huge because it cuts down on a long and unpredictable commute / lets them be close to family members / lets them juggle work and school pick-ups / allows them to work for the same company when they’ve relocated several states away / helps them in a health crisis. I guess the only way to tell if you’ll like it, is to try it. If you start falling into a rut of being lonely or not getting enough exercise, there are ways to fight that.

      Regarding expenses, my company doesn’t cover any, but I don’t work from home regularly. If it was a full-time situation, the arrangement might be different. Sometimes the associated expenses can also be tax-deductible, but the rules are complicated and depend on a lot of variables.

  95. Lazy Cat*

    I have a bad boss. I’m job hunting, but in the meantime I have the chance to apply for an internal promotion, which would give me the power to take over tasks my boss isn’t doing (yay!), but would also mean taking power away from them, which they won’t like (boo).

    I would still report to my boss in the new position. It’s a position I would want, regardless of boss. I can talk fairly frankly with my boss’s boss, both about work in general and boss problems specifically.

    What do I ask before applying for this job, or what do I bring up before the position is posted to try and make it as functional as possible, for whoever ends up there? I would appreciate any comments!

    1. Mouse full of Anon*

      Should definitely ask about what support you will have if/when current boss get’s upset/causes trouble/puts up roadblocks in the new position.

  96. MashaKasha (not for long)*

    I need to change the name I use to post my comments on this site, asap. We are getting a new VP that my boss will report to, who shares my native language. In the (hopefully unlikely) case he looks at my comments here, it will take him five seconds tops to figure out who of his employees I am. I don’t want that kind of complications in my life. Was wondering if any of the regulars could share how they got the ideas for theirs (especially if there’s a fun story behind one!) My mind is currently a blank.

    2. NaoNao*

      I use a nickname I was given overseas. Nicknames from childhood, favorite fictional characters, phrases “Don’t let the door” or “Jam today, Jam tomorrow”, names of scientific items (constellations, elements, phenomenon) variations on the word “anonymous”, favorite TV show/character, pet’s name, place where you used to live or childhood home town with some numbers added “Williamsville72”, flavors, colors, fabrics…really anything!

      My only question is, is “mashakasha” a word or phrase in your native language? Since you’re writing in English, I can’t quite see the “native language” connection.

      1. MashaKasha*

        Yes, the first half is my nickname.
        The second half means hot cereal :)
        And it would take a native speaker a second or so to make the connection.
        Thank you for the list of options, very helpful!

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          You could expand on it, start calling yourself “Varnishkes”. :)

          Mine is based on a character in The Wire, and I chose it for reasons I won’t share here. But if you have a favorite TV or movie character, you can start there.

        2. Ellie*

          While I do not speak Russian, one of my besties does, so I immediately looked at your user name and thought “Like Misha? Like breakfast cereal stuff?” ;)

    3. AnnaleighUK*

      Mines my middle name because I have a massively weird first name which would lead anyone else at my workplace to twig it was me. Luckily they don’t know overly much about my hobbies or what my fiancé does and I reckon only HR knows my middle name.

    4. The Person from the Resume*

      I’ve been jealous of people who picked characters from books or movies I’ve admired and thought I wish I had thought of that. (ie Cordelia Vorkosigan)

      I used to use one that played on the title of the TV and had kind of a my job title. Use your generic job title/description plus one other word. (Nervous Accountant)

      Funny phrases. My current one is from a comic I linked to where a job applicant was motivating herself by saying “be the Person from the Resume.” (The Hill to Die On)

      Yeah, mostly, I think that’s a great one. I wish I had though of that first.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I switched from a more identifiable name to this one after binge watching Brooklyn Nine Nine :)

    6. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Old name: just a generic “fantasy” type name.
      New name: temporary switch because I liked the SNL skit, but I kinda just don’t feel like switching back so I’m keeping it.

    7. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I saw a meme I liked and nabbed it! :) Prior to this one, I was using a variant spelling on an old family name.

        1. MashaKasha*

          Why, I believe I have read that book!

          There’s also a Thankfforallthefish on here somewhere.

    8. arjumand*

      When the internet started to become a thing, I had recently read a Connie Willis book called To Say Nothing of the Dog, in which some characters spend a while looking for a cat called Princess Arjumand. I liked the name, so I decided to use it for everything I do online, and I’ve done it ever since. Though recently imdb switched from using email addresses to real names, which I don’t like much.
      I have another name I only use for my fanfic, but that will never be revealed, heh.

    9. Sled Dog Mama*

      Mine is two very important parts of my life.
      My pups (3 75-90 lbs Alaskan malamutes) and my kids

      1. Em Too*

        I’ve alway wondered about yours. I have a doubtless completely inaccurate mental picture of you in the wilds of Alaska or somewhere, in furs.

        As for mine – there was already an Em on here…

    10. Nita*

      Oh no! Maybe the Kasha would throw your boss off the trail. Unless you’ve always got a bowl of kasha on your desk in which case, yes, there is a problem. Your name always makes me think of a favorite cartoon, so I’m very tempted to suggest a new name that’s bear-related :)

      Mine is kind of random… it’s like six degrees of separation from my actual name. Enough of a connection that I’ll remember it, but hopefully not close enough that a coworker would recognize me. Not that I intend to bash anyone here, but like you say, I don’t need that kind of complications.

    11. CAA*

      Mine is my initials. I know three other people with the same initials, so I figure it’s not too revealing. :-)

    13. Totally Minnie*

      Mine’s the title of a TV program I liked as a kid. It has nostalgia for me, but it will probably never come up in conversation with anybody at work, so I feel safely anonymous.

      1. MashaKasha (still)*

        I might mine the cartoon shows that my kids like when they were young, for names. That’s a good idea!

    14. Garland Not Andrews*

      Mine refers to my first name in a round about way, but only my first name, as my last name is not very common. Perhaps you could use something like that. Or as others have suggested, a favorite book character.

    15. MashaKasha (still)*

      Thank you, everyone! I’ll have to go through my lists of favorite books and movies over the weekend to see if I can find a character that I like. I really like Natalie Blake from “NW”. But that would be appropriation, because I’m white, and did not grow up in the projects. Outside of that, I feel like she is my soul mate. But I will keep looking.

      1. zora*

        You could jump off of that character somehow? “Natalie’s Friend” or “I Heart Natalie” …
        Or just put Natalie together with some other thing you love.

        My anon email handle is “zoradances” which I got from mashing up “Zora Neale Hurston” and “If I can’t dance, I don’t want to be part of your revolution.” So, stick Natalie together with ‘Kittens’ or some other thing you really love?

    16. Montresaur*

      Not a regular here, though I’m a daily reader and very occasional commenter.

      Mine’s a punny version of a literary character (Montresor from Poe’s “Cask of Amontillado”; I was so into gothic fiction in HS). It’s my inside joke with myself, imagining that dark and dreadful story (and my moody teenage self, by extension) lampooned with a cast of dinosaurs. I’ve carried it around with me for years and I’m still enjoying it. You can’t go wrong with a ridiculous pun!

    17. Mrs. Fenris*

      Mine’s kind of dumb and I should probably think of something better, but my husband’s gamer name is Fenris. He spends (an inordinate amount of) time chatting with people in game, and he references me so much I have become a bit of a mythical character. “Gotta go, Mrs. Fenris is giving me the stink eye.” So I have a username that has nothing to do with me, just my relationship with another person, and a part of his life that mostly annoys me. Oh well. :-)

    18. I Wrote This In The Bathroom*

      I’m back, testing a new name to see if it goes through.

      There is a back story to the name. Last year, one of my top 5 favorite bands (indie folk) was in town, and, at the venue’s bar before the show, I met a family of hardcore fans (mom and dad about my age, and a son in his 20s). As in, they follow the band on tours everywhere, have met them, have hosted events for them etc. I saw the family again after the show ended, and they were “come with us, we’ll introduce you to the band leader”. Followed by an awkward 20-30 minutes of the five of us standing in a circle, mom, dad, and myself being silent, and the son grilling Band Leader on what had inspired him to write this song and that song. I tuned out after the son said “What about (a song I really love)” and Band Leader’s response was “Oh, that one? I wrote that one in the bathroom” (DUDE NO NO I DON’T WANT TO HEAR, PLEASE NO) He said something else, but I tried hard not to hear.

      (I know no one will read this comment, but am leaving it here anyway.)

  97. BadStudent*

    Academics: Will my atrocious undergrad grades forever hold me back from getting an MBA from a decent program someday?

    I was a good student in high school and am a good employee with an impressive resume, but I just got too deep into my social life to the point where senior year I was doing the bare minimum to graduate. To add, my degree is from a very elite university.

    Since my focus is marketing, it’s not essential that I get an MBA now (I’m 25) but it would really suck if in the future Im presented with an opportunity where an MBA would be really beneficial and I ruined any chance of that. Have I basically shot myself in the foot with this or is it possible that at some point, relevant experience will outweigh the awful GPA?

    1. Sled Dog Mama*

      I don’t know how relevant this is to MBA so YMMV. I actually failed a couple of courses and had a pretty low GPA in college. I took two years off before applying to grad school. During that time I took a couple of classes and made very good grades in them while working full time.
      My grad school also required a personal statement and a large part of mine focused on what I had learned from from my not so good grades and how I had worked to overcome the obstacles that led to the grades (oh and BTW here’s an A in organic chemistry since then to prove I really have learned).
      The further out from those bad grades the more a program should look at what you’ve done since then.

      1. USM Professor*

        You want to specifically ask what is used to evaluate applicants. Although not universal, applicants are evaluated by a committee of faculty who are charged with assessing each applicant based on a specified set of criteria. Also determine whether or not exceptions are ever made to the criteria. For example, sometimes an applicant is granted a conditional acceptance, requiring a specific GPA be achieved in the first semester for continuing in the program.
        Take a good look at any reference forms or guidelines for your references, and be sure your references know about your abilities and skills in the stated criteria. You might write a cover-letter-like letter to your references highlighting your accomplishments, skills, and abilities relating to those criteria, along with your resume. Also, sometimes an application requires a statement of your purpose in getting an MBA, justification that you are capable of successfully completing the degree, or some other personal essay, so provide a copy of that to your reference.
        Commonly, the criteria are undergraduate GPA, GMAT or sometimes GRE, and recommendations. Think of it as compensatory; a deficiency in one (e.g. low GPA), can be offset by strength in the other two, although this is not universal.
        Also, determine the mix of references you should provide. For an application to Harvard, you might provide three – two solid higher level business people and perhaps one academic in a business related discipline. For a school with a more quantitative MBA, use two strong academics in quantitative fields, and one higher level business person who can support you as an applicant who is disciplined and sharp enough to successfully complete a rigorous graduate program.
        After you are familiar with the evaluative criteria, you might try to schedule a meeting or two with faculty teaching in one of the core MBA courses.
        Think of it as a full-blown reconnaissance to equip you to strongly compete with other applicants.
        Best wishes in your endeavor.

    2. JD SAHE*

      Absolutely. Grad Schools want a mix – they will look harder at the GPA/test scores of someone who has nothing else to offer, but they want to be able to 1) have higher average age than 22, to show that real people with real skills go there, and 2) provide insight to the real world to their k-BA/S students. I sit on my law school’s admissions council, as well as help with a local grad school’s program.

    3. Reba*

      Frankly, some schools will exclude you over it. Some even publish the cutoff GPA and GRE scores (which will help you know not to waste your application fees there!). Speaking of, have you taken/will you take the GRE? I feel it is an infuriating scam but if you test well that can give a good counterweight to ups and downs in the transcript. Going back later as you may, as opposed to right out of undergrad, also takes the focus away from those grades.

    4. LAI*

      I can’t speak to MBA programs specifically but I have heard that they tend to value work experience more than other types of graduate programs. The people you need to talk to are Admissions officers at some schools you’re interested in – you can probably just call them up and ask, or even better, go to an info session there. If it turns out that your bad grades are an issue, you might be able to mitigate it by taking some classes now and proving that you can do well. These could be classes through a university extension program (even elite universities like Harvard have extension classes that are open to the public) or a local community college. If you get a couple of As on a transcript, that will prove that you can be disciplined, meet deadlines, follow instructions, etc.

      1. periwinkle*

        I’d even recommend earning a graduate certificate in something relevant to your field. Not only would it be useful knowledge, but it would be a set of recent grades from graduate-level work. That could help balance out the low undergrad GPA.

        I graduated with a 3.08 but that required getting pretty much all A’s for the second half! It was enough to make the cutoff for most grad programs, thank goodness. Now, as noted, MBA applicants are expected to have professional experience and recent experience may be weighted more heavily than the D you got in intro to sociology at age 19. You might not be able to get into Harvard/Wharton/Kellogg, but then again those are tough to get into regardless.

        Incidentally, I just flipped through the bios of my employer’s top executives. Not many have MBAs (and quite a few never went higher than a bachelor’s), and very few of those come from top-tier schools. This is a Fortune 50 company. You can indeed be awesome without the MBA…

        1. BadStudent*

          That’s great advice thank you!

          I know MBAs aren’t a big necessity now, but the job market is always changing and like I said, it would really suck if I isolated myself from that opportunity because I screwed up for 4 years.

          And who knows, maybe my grandkids will someday be complaining to me that no one gets jobs without advanced degrees anymore…

  98. Truffles*

    Recent grad in the job market here. A couple questions:

    (1) Has anyone attended meetups/conferences related to your job, and were they helpful? Any comments on etiquette at these events (e.g. dress code, is it appropriate for someone who doesn’t yet have a job to attend)? The meetups I’ve seen seem like good opportunities to learn about different areas of my field.

    (2) Does anyone have experience with what it’s like being the only specialist in your field at your company? Pros/cons? One of the places I volunteered might have a place for me, but I’d be the only specialist (think tech-related) of that kind there.

    1. periwinkle*

      Meetups, no, but I did attend conferences as a new grad – appropriate ones, unlike this letter writer: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/03/i-got-fired-for-attending-a-conference-that-i-wasnt-invited-to.html

      Conferences are a good time to do a little networking; be sure to follow up with a polite email if anyone expresses a willingness to talk with you further about your career plans or about her interesting approach to calculating optimal teapot spouts. Attend the sessions which align with your specialization or key interests; this will give you something to talk about at interviews (“When I attended the Teapot Designer Association’s conference last April, I saw Earl Gray talk about his new research on tannins and tooth staining. In school we had learned about the Darjeeling manufacturing method for stain-resistant teapots and I thought that Gray’s findings might explain why the industry is moving more toward porcelain linings. What’s been your experience?”).

      If you’re concerned about the suitability of the conference and/or your wardrobe, check the conference website for the contact info of the organizing group. There should be a person or email address listed for general inquiries or registration questions. For a general non-executive conference, business casual seems standard.

    2. Thlayli*

      Yes to both of those. Absolutely go to the meet ups. Very good for networking.

      I have been the only specialist in ny field in my company. It’s a nice place to be. Definitely helps you climb the ladder a little quicker.

    3. Tea, please*

      As the only specialist you wouldn’t have access to more skilled colleagues who could help you grow you grow your skill set. My first job out of my grad program, I was the only person with my certification. I had amazing leadership opportunities I wouldnot have as elsewhere, but my skill set definitely has holes. I recently moved to a job at a much larger organization. I learned an incredible amount in the first month by just being around others in my field.

  99. Is this a reasonable work load?*

    My nonprofit is reorganizing, which involves hiring new staff and moving people around. I’m not a manager, but all staff are being asked to participate in rethinking job descriptions (for existing and new staff). I’d love your input on whether this is a reasonable workload. This is in the nonprofit sector; the programs are learning cohorts focused on different topics. The role does not do any of the training/facilitation for the cohorts — it is the program/operations manager.

    Role: Program Coordinator
    Salary: $70k, which is reasonable but not over market for the region and level of experience
    Time is split between Program A (25% but should probably be more like 50%), Program B (50% but should probably be more like 25%), and Program C (25%).

    Program A responsibilities: Overall leadership of new program launching next fiscal year, which will include 3 cohorts of 15 participants each. Manage all operational aspects of Program A (responsible for budget, recruitment, selection, alumni support, new program development, staff a volunteer advisory committee, etc.). Program A is a new, high-profile project that the CEO is personally invested in. Program participants are very senior, high-profile leaders (Fortune 500 CEOs, state government cabinet members, university presidents, etc.)

    Program B responsibilities: Support existing program with 3 cohorts of 20-25 participants each. Manage recruitment, selection, tuition negotiation. Manage alumni engagement. No responsibility for current participants, just prospects and alumni. Responsible for all communications with prospects and alumni (currently, a quarterly newsletter and twice weekly Facebook posts).

    Program C is a consulting business that the nonprofit operates. When available, program staff from all the nonprofit’s programs provide consulting in their areas of expertise to outside organizations and charge a market consulting rate to generate revenue for the nonprofit. This role’s responsibilities are to develop proposals and negotiate contracts with these clients.

      1. Is this a reasonable work load?*

        This role is the primary/accountable staff person for program A. Other staff also work on the program — a facilitator who does the actual training, an executive sponsor who helps to shepherd the program through organizational bureaucracy, and in theory .1 FTE of admin support but that role has not yet been filled.

        Program B has a 1.0 FTE program director, a .5 senior admin, and facilitators for the cohorts themselves. The program director manages the staff, leads strategy for the program, oversees instiutional fundraising, and is accountable for the budget. The admin handles all logistics (contracts with facilities and outside trainers, collecting and processing tuition payments, etc.). The program director, admin, and facilitators handle everything related to the current programming; the person in the role I’m asking about is accountable for everything relating to before (prospects/recruiting/selection process) and after (alumni) the program.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      This seems reasonable to me if this person also has the ability to influence or set the schedule so that the busy times for each cohort and program aren’t overlapping.

      1. Is this a reasonable work load?*

        This person can’t set the schedules for the cohorts, so it may be that the busy times of the various programs coincide. But we have a flexible schedule and good management and nobody will object to this person managing her own schedule and easing off during less busy times to make up for heavier workload at other times.

        1. Jillociraptor*

          I’d be less worried about time management or the person managing the ebbs and flows throughout the year and more worried about program quality during those busy times. The quantity and responsibility for this role is probably on point, but you’ll want to have a good conversation about clear goals and expectations for the programs and how willing you are for some details to slip if they’re not sequenced out strategically. If it’s vital that every cohort be a perfect ten, this position is probably not in line with organizational needs. If each cohort needs to be good but not operationally perfect, you’re probably good with this setup.

  100. The Grammarian*

    I just had a phone interview and I used a couple of Allison’s interview questions suggestions (how do you measure the success of a person in this role and what is the culture like–two things that are important to me). The interviewer said they were great questions. Fingers crossed about this interview! I would really like to get this job. It’s a combo of things I like.

  101. Nonny*

    Is five months too close together to take a week of vacation?
    I took the week of Thanksgiving off last year due to a family emergency in another state. I recently requested a week off at the end of April, for my sister’s wedding, also in another state. My manager commented that corporate may start to have an issue with all the time off, except other than those I haven’t really taken time off.
    I took a single half day in December because of flu, and was technically off for a day in January, because every school and daycare in the city was closed due to weather. Our office even closed at noon, so i only missed 4 hours.

    I think it’s just the companies culture surrounding days off. Multiple people every year lose 60-80 hours of vacation time because it’s use it or lose it, and no one seems to find time to take theirs

    1. she was a fast machine*

      In a normal world, that wouldn’t just be okay, it would be pretty…average. The fact that your company regularly has people losing that much vacation says a lot about their culture, namely that they don’t like people taking off/don’t care to make it important. And your manager’s comment is just icky to me, like, how on earth could anyone take issue with your time off knowing the reasons behind it?

    2. Just Peachy*

      No, I don’t think that’s too close together at all. It’s odd that your manager would comment on that. Your vacation is there to use; unless you’ve planned vacation during a critical time for you to be there, I don’t understand the issue (and really, FIVE months? That’s plenty enough spaced out). You also mention the fact that you’re never really gone for days at a time any other time, which makes it even weirder for your manager to say that corporate will start taking issue with it. I have a week long vacation planned in May, and another week long vacation planned in September, and no one at my work would flinch at this.

    3. Reba*

      I mean, five months is nearly at the limit of how much you *could* space things out, right?

      Your manager may not have a real close grip on your actual time usage, or as you said it may reflect a company culture where people don’t actually use their benefits! I think Alison has published some scripts before about being discouraged from using vacation, which is part of your compensation.

      I hope you have fun at the wedding!

  102. she was a fast machine*

    So I have a situation I need some help with because I’m a fixer and I don’t really know if this is something I can fix or I should even make an effort to try to fix.

    Background; I work at an organization where we train people, usually educators, and most of our professional staff are former educators themselves. I’m just a secretary, not a professional staff, but we fix everything and make it all work, as with most places. One of our staff, Mary, is relatively new(started in the fall last year), and has caused problems ever since she started. She took months to get up to speed when others who started at the same time were ready to work in weeks, and even now that she’s “working” she spends most of her time in her office and doesn’t do any on-site trainings or workshops, which is literally the job description. She tends to act more aloof than some of our other staff and comes from a private sector business unrelated to education(though she was an educator many years ago). Everyone who is here is here because they’re very good at their jobs and they love what we do, and all are exceptionally professional and aware of their internal and external perception. Except, seemingly, Mary. She drops out of presentations because she’s too busy, but then nobody knows what it is that she’s busy doing. Every single person in our 30+ department is aware of her…shortcomings, except, it seems, our director, Amy, who hired her. People make comments about her behind her back and discuss her seeming inability to complete vital aspects of her job, but nobody wants to go to Amy about it. And Amy is so busy herself, in and out of meetings, often out of the office, that she probably hasn’t seen it herself. Though, there have been purely speculatory asides from some staff that Mary has dazzled Amy somehow to the point where Amy won’t see Mary’s faults, but nobody has actually addressed it directly with Amy as far as I know.

    I have a good relationship with Amy, and am often her favored secretary for various things, but I’m not Mary’s secretary. I desperately want to bring up questions about Mary to Amy, because not only is Mary’s actual position(a content-specific position) going under-addressed, but it’s making people avoid Mary and say (honest) things about her that eventually will likely make their way to our clients and possibly tarnish our reputation. But I know that being that Mary isn’t my “person” and that I’m just a secretary with no direct professional experience and therefore “lower” on the totem pole, I don’t know if this is something I can even bring up. It’s frustrating me so much. Help me, commentors, what can I do here? Can I do anything?

    1. NaoNao*

      Well, Allison’s advice would be:
      Is Mary’s shorcomings directly affecting the workload or deliverables of you or your colleagues? If so, you can go to Amy.
      What you need to do is focus on the facts, not “Mary seems aloof”. Facts are what you could prove in a court of law. So “Mary was asked to present in X conference and declined.” “Mary was asked to provide feedback by 2/3 and it’s now 2/18. We can’t turn in client materials without her feedback.”

      The point is not how people perceive Mary, although it’s certainly arguable that it’s a key office skill to have, but is her work getting done? Could she be on special projects that the support staff isn’t aware of? Could she have been hired due to major connections in the business/private sector world and her job is kind of…networking as needed?

      Without being creepy and keeping excess tabs on Mary, maybe just take a couple notes when *concrete* things happen that directly affect your workflow and productivity.

      I mean, people talk. We’ve seen thousands of comments from junior employees tearing their hair out over toxic bosses and superiors, and somehow the company keeps going and either crashes and burns or doesn’t. Gossip and rumors and talk are part of doing business. Good clients and partners won’t listen and will gauge on their actual experience with the business, not “talk on the street” with no supporting evidence.

      1. Colette*

        I disagree that it’s not about perception – a discreet mention to Amy that people are avoiding Mary and that her relationship with others may affect the organization’s reputation with their clients is warranted, if Amy is the kind of person who would react well to that.

        1. she was a fast machine*

          We are in a big push right now where our funding is switching from being subsidized to coming directly and entirely from our clients and so I feel like this is information Amy needs to know, but I just don’t know how to broach it with her without it sounding so uncertain.

          1. Colette*

            I don’t think you need to be certain. Maybe something like “I’ve heard that Mary has been dropping out of presentations and that others are avoiding her since they don’t believe she’ll help. I’m not sure how true that is, but wanted to bring it to your attention in case you didn’t know.”

      2. she was a fast machine*

        There are definitely cases where it would be quite simple to show all the things Mary agreed to do/planned to do and didn’t, or compare her schedule of trainings to those who are at the same level as her and train on similar topics. It’s definitely possible she could be working on other projects that no one else in the department knows about. Even if she is, she’s not arranging someone to cover the slack in her duties(e.g. she was supposed to present on her area of expertise in another staff’s training, and when she said she was too busy they had to scramble to find someone else to cover it instead of her offering to find someone to cover it since it was part of her duties to present) and it’s causing stress elsewhere for people trying to serve her job description while she does things that aren’t necessarily in her job duties.

        The biggest thing is that our ability to help our clients kind of lives and dies on our reputation, and in our industry, unofficial networking/talk is how a lot of things go; if people start telling each other “well, X organization’s presenter on Y subject is useless/doesn’t present often/whatever” then we lose business because people won’t come to us for Y subject material because it’s pretty clear to see that Y material isn’t being offered on our website and scheduling system, so that kind of reinforces what’s being said. That’s what I mean about people honestly sharing her shortcomings.

        I will start keeping track of things I notice/are told to me that’s happening to maybe put a bug in Amy’s ear.

  103. Moi moi*

    What’s a polite way to inform someone that they don’t need to write “Apologies for any cross-postings” at the top of nearly every forwarded or informative email they send? Sigh. Do you guys see this a lot, too?

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I’ve never seen that. It sounds weirdly over-formal. And honestly, I’m not totally sure what that means… like “sorry if you already got this info?”

      But, assuming you do know what they are saying (haha), I’d just accept it as a weird quirk and probably not worth bringing up. Sorry!

    2. Chaordic One*

      I see this quite often at my current employer and also on several professional list-servs that I subscribe to.

      On the one hand, it is often unncessary and inappropriate. I guess that certain people have been criticized for doing so in the past (one mistake that their boss or co-worker won’t let them live down) and are overly-conscientious about it. If the people you wish to address fall into this category, you might say something to them along the lines of:

      “Your emails always deal with the topic at hand. I’m not aware that you’ve ever cross-posted inappropriately and I really think that you don’t need to include, ‘Apologeis for any cross-postings’ in your emails.”

      On the other hand, there are certain other people who cross-post inappropriate things because they haven’t read the entire email they are responding to, or they haven’t read the follow-up emails from others responding to the original email. This second group of people are really annoying and (IMHO) a bit lazy or dense, but if you point it out to them, they’ll always point out that they did include “Apologies for any cross-postings.” There really doesn’t seem to be any effective way to deal with these people.

    3. Windchime*

      The only context in which I’ve seen the word “cross-posting” used is in the old Usenet newsgroups. I’ve never seen it in the context of email; I don’t think of emails as being “posted” at all.

      So to me, it’s weird.

  104. Fmr biz analyst*

    How does one go about re-entering their professional career after a decade out of the workforce due to illness and multiple surgeries? What’s the best way to explain gap on resume or to potential employers without divulging private, sensitive health information?

    Probably looking to work flex at home and part time, because full-time pay isn’t critical with hubby working and providing health insurance. Any advice appreciated! TIA!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      In the cover letters or emails expressing interest, you can say something like “I have spent the last decade dealing with health problems that have since been resolved, and am very excited about XXX opportunity.”

  105. It's Friday I'm Anon*

    A comment on today’s letter #2 really leaped out at me:
    “MassMatt
    February 2, 2018 at 1:35 am
    “At bad organizations they will be…pigeonholed as impossible to promote as they are “too valuable” in their existing role.”

    What do you do if that’s you?
    I’ve been the linchpin of my team for 6 years now. There was an opportunity for promotion to team lead, but I hesitated too long and someone else got it. I’m not bitter as I like this co-worker and think they’re better qualified in terms of soft skills and breadth of experience. But how to you make a career as an individual contributor without falling into that “too valuable” trap?

    1. NoMoreMrFixit*

      I found working in a very specialized technical role that volunteering for new projects helped, but long term the only route upwards was to move on to new opportunities somewhere else.

      1. It's Friday I'm Anon*

        How do you do that when your only relevant references are within the same company? (It’s large, Fortune 500 with headquarters out of state but has a regional hub in my city.)

      2. Jennifer*

        Otherwise known as “The Hamilton” these days (hah). If they don’t want you to leave…then you leave, I guess.

  106. Adjunct Gal*

    I have been at my new job for one month today! Two days ago I was taken out to lunch by my manager and grandboss to celebrate and to show appreciation for how I cut through a garbage situation I inherited and got the project moving forward again.

    I feel like I’m getting things accomplished and learning new skills, while using old ones I’ve had in a new way. Things are good and I hope they stay that way. Yay me!

  107. Anon for this*

    I’ve been thinking a lot about job satisfaction and work-life balance and was wondering about other people’s experiences as they’ve moved up in their careers.

    I graduated a few years ago and am still in my first office job, as an admin. Overall, I like my job, but I know it’s not forever (I’d eventually like to earn more). But I’m kind of torn. I like that my job is strictly 8-5 and that I’m not expected to check e-mail over the weekend. I like that there’s some downtime. I know that I wouldn’t want a job with poor work-life balance or that’s hectic all the time. I don’t work well in environments like that, and I’m much more of a work to live person than a live to work person.

    In that regard, being an admin feels like it should be a decent fit, and I’ve been a little hesitant to branch out into work that might have greater obligations or responsibility. But I also find admin work frustrating at times. I don’t care for the customer service aspects of running the front desk. Sometimes I feel like I don’t have enough to do and am eager to help and other times I inwardly dread getting requests. Whenever I take time off, I worry about the e-mails and calls I might be missing. I’m really prone to anxiety in general, and sometimes I worry a lot about screwing up. This has been affecting my career goals because it makes me not want to take on more responsibility or have to be more available.

    But recently, I’ve had some opportunities to get involved with some projects where I’m more of a peer or leader than support staff, and I’m finding that at least so far, I’m not as easily frustrated or anxious and I don’t mind being “disturbed” as much. I think I like having more autonomy and feeling like I’m more involved in what I’m working on.

    This is making me wonder if my dissatisfaction is more because admin/customer service isn’t a great fit for me, or even just normal growing pains with entry-level work, as opposed to being unhappy with work in general. And I wonder if I’m selling myself a little short by assuming that because I get stressed out easily in this (honestly pretty easy) position, I’ll definitely be stressed if I move up.

    Thoughts?

    1. Amber O.*

      I can totally see where you’re coming from. I think it’s really easy to get frustrated with the monotony of admin/entry level work and the lack of variety. I’ve worked in an admin capacity since my second year of college in 2012. Last year I was given the opportunity to take a position as a “project coordinator,” which seems to be a half step between an admin and project manager. Half my job is admin support, and the other half is working on or leading projects across the company. It’s a decent balance that gives you some extra stimulation, independence, and responsibility while also providing a stepping stone to other things if you want. It would be a great way to get your toes (more) wet with taking on more. Maybe it’s something to look into?

  108. CorporateQueer*

    A couple of folks on the recent post about handshaking and sexism in the office asked me if I’d talk about what it’s like going from female to male on the job. I’m a trans guy in a big, liberal city. Before I decided to transition, I was initially presenting very femininely in an effort to “fix” myself. (Note, being trans isn’t something that anybody needs to fix, it’s just another characteristic like being gay or having brown hair, but I was struggling with my fears about coming out and was hoping that, if I pretended to be female for long enough, some switch would be flipped and I’d be happy with my body. Transitioning can be exhausting and both physically and socially dangerous, and it took me awhile to accept that I was trans.)

    I changed workplaces a few times after deciding to come out, so I’m not sure how much of this is based on office culture vs. my gender presentation, but it’s still interesting, especially at scientific conferences, which I’ve attended both as a female-presenting person and a man. I’m automatically given more space- people will step aside in the hallway for me or scoot over so I can sit down during a presentation, whereas before I had to ask a few times to get anybody to move. I’ve noticed female colleagues in a similar role to me tended to get their presentations more picked over and criticized than I did, too.

    A lot of trans men have also mentioned that they’ve gotten roped into really sexist conversations at work, because we can often “pass” as someone who’s been presenting as male for their whole life. That hasn’t happened to me, possible because of my work culture, or possibly because I’m pretty out and open about being queer and feminist.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      As someone who works in a male dominated field but is on the more “soft” skilled side of it, but crap I get is unbelievable. I do find your take interesting, because I’ve wondered if it’s just my perception coming from offices that were generally more female dominated (lucky me, genuinely) or if I’m just overly sensitive.

    2. bohtie*

      thank you for this comment! I was actually in the middle of writing one below about coming out as trans at work when this popped up and it’s really interesting to think about — I’ve always been really masculine-presenting, and I work with a predominantly female staff, so I haven’t had a lot of these experiences, but I always try to keep an eye out.

    3. fposte*

      Thanks–this is fascinating! I’m especially intrigued by the “given more space” thing, because that’s one aspect of gender the written communication minimal pairs haven’t been able to go into and I didn’t see it coming. I hope other people with relevant experience will add theirs.

    4. RulesFor*

      I’m also a transmasculine person, and it’s wild some of the differences that crop up. I did substitute teaching both before my transition and about three years later when I was well into it, and the reaction I got from both students and faculty were really different. I could tell a class to follow the rules as a man and they would. As a woman, not so much. I also tended to be perceived as “funny” as a man and “bitchy” as a woman, if I was being sarcastic.

      1. Rookie Manager*

        Teaching is one of those professions with a ‘glass escalator’ (as mentioned earlier). When I dallied with becoming a teacher my male classmates were always praised/taken more seriously.

    5. Rookie Manager*

      Thanks for commenting CorporateQueer, and anyone else who has/will follow. It’s always interesting to hear from people who have experience of different perspectives.

  109. JD SAHE*

    Okay, so I recently took a new job (less than three months ago). My wife works at the same place – normally we wouldn’t overlap much, but I am the assistant director of teapots compliance, and for this year only, she is the interim director of teapots advocacy. We’ve run into something weird – I used to volunteer with this organization in a completely different capacity, related to one of my hobbies. As a result, and as a result of how long she has worked here, about 1/4 of the company knows both of us, and knows we got married in the last 4 months.
    We’ve been in a number of meetings together in my first couple months, and invariably, when the folks running the meeting feel it necessary to do introductions for me, or ask if I know everyone, a number of people in the room laugh when we get to my wife. She usually handles it very professionally, name (we both kept our own last names), and title, but I’ve seen a number of people asking the laughing people why they are laughing. Neither of us really wants to stand up and say BTW, THIS IS MY WIFE, but what is the best way to knowledge the five year olds in the room, without making some folks feel there is a joke they aren’t in on? We both think its funny when someone doesn’t know and tries to introduce us to each other, but we are more weirded out by the dynamics in those meetings.

    1. Erstwhile Anon*

      Keep a big smile on your face. “Ah, ignore the peanut gallery — Jane and I got married a few months ago and it’s apparently such a fairytale romance that everyone is still aflutter about it. Now. If you’ll turn to page four in your handouts, you’ll see the data we’ve compiled about this month’s compliance reports.”

      1. Competent Commenter*

        Agreed. Acknowledge it briefly and neutrally and move on. Hopefully that will encourage them to move on as well.

  110. Junior Dev*

    I work in a cubicle I share with several other team members. Due to a history of back problems I have a specialized chair I paid for, and my company has provided me with a standing desk I had to provide a doctor’s note to get.

    The area right outside my cubicle has some tables and chairs, and people like to gather outside it and talk loudly, as well as parking themselves there to work while talking loudly. It’s so loud I can hear it through my noise cancelling headphones, and distracts me from hearing the videos that it’s my job to watch and review.

    If not for the ergonomic setup I might do what they’re doing and camp out in some other part of the building, but the reality is I need to spend most of my time working at my desk to avoid health problems.

    Apparently this area has been established as a social spot for years. I just started less than a month ago. Does anyone have advice for asking people to move or keep it down that will be effective and not get me labeled as a wet blanket?

    1. NaoNao*

      Can you get one of those decorative light signs that says Quiet Please and light it up when you really need silence? Could you hang out later and then after everyone is gone just subtly move the chairs and table further away (or get permission to do this?)
      Can you establish a friendly rapport with one of the people and then confess you really need quiet and you can’t move?
      Alternately: shift your hours so you overlap less with the rest of the office? Shift entire days (ie, work Tuesday-Sat or something?)

    2. fposte*

      I think this is going to be tough with this physical setup; it’s just too conducive to socializing. Is there any really easy place to move them to that doesn’t just make them somebody else’s problem?

      Absent separating your cubicle and the table and chairs, I think the best you can ask for is getting people to lower their voices. I’d consult with your manager first to ask about the best way to do that, so you have some buy-in upstream; I’m thinking maybe polite signs on the tables in keeping with company culture that give you a little leverage if you shush.

      But I also think that anything you can do in the way of mindfulness and focus will be a big asset right now since this problem isn’t likely to disappear entirely. Good luck!

    3. Competent Commenter*

      If you’re in a shared cubicle how do your cube mates cope? Can you all band together to ask for people to move on or lower their voices or talk to management?

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      Since you’re so new, this is definitely something you want to address through your manager, since they will have the capital that you don’t have as a new employee. Can you go to your manager in a spirit of brainstorming and say something like, “Since I’m dependent on my desk set up, I tried to address the problem with noise cancelling headphones. Unfortunately, I’m still finding that the noise impacts my ability to do X, Y, Z tasks. Is there a solution that you can think of that I’m not seeing as a new hire?” You could even add something like, “I know that’s an established social spot, and I dn’t want to disrupt what’s an office norm. I’m just hitting a wall on coming up with a viable fix.”

      That way, you’re not complaining, you’re raising a valid work concern. You’re showing you’ve tried solutions on your own, and you’re aware of office culture and your relatively new place in it. You’re also asking for advice and insight, not making demands. Being so new, I think any signage will come across as passive aggressive. You really want to loop in your manager so they can help you navigate. You don’t have the standing yet to do much beyond what you’ve already tried.

  111. Dr. Doll*

    I need a little pep talk. Maybe it’s just that it’s the end of the week, but — I’m tired of 90% of my job being coaxing people to do optional-but-good things, and 10% trying to deal with a really flaky and semi-competent team member. The emotional labor, it is heavy in this job.

    Maybe I need to retire and go work for a landscaping company or something.

    1. Dr. Doll*

      Also I am being driven bonkers by the flaky person also having constant sinus problems so they have lots of coughing and snorting and muffled talking. To top it off, the person walks in a shuffling manner, never lifting their feet. So it’s shuffle-shuffle, snort, cough, sniff, shuffle-shuffle, I hab a headache. I should feel sorry for them, I know.

      TGIF I guess.

      1. NaoNao*

        Scuffle scuffle feet makes me INSANE. I feel your pain. It makes me feel like a huge jerky classist but I’m like “pick UP your feet, you’re not a STEER!”

  112. user4231*

    My boss’s boss invited me for lunch. Not sure why.

    I’m new in my job.

    Any advice how I should react when I’m asked about my impressions? There are several things I like at my job but also several things which I find quite dysfunctional, which make me question how long I will stay before starting to search for a new position.

    1. Not So Super-visor*

      It’s probably a get-to-know-you lunch. I would hold off on any big complaints just yet when meeting with the boss’s boss. You could always frame things about being curious about a process. For example “I’m curious about your teapot nozzle replacement process. In my past experience, I’ve found X, but here we do Y. Can you give me more details about why we use the Y process?”

  113. ANNOYED*

    It’s -32C and snowing heavily. My boss asked me to go get him coffee, after he strolled in at 10AM, because he couldn’t drive through the snow to get his own coffee.

    This is not part of my job description. He has asked me to do this all week because he said it’s too cold for him.

    So I’m going to go get coffee, but I’m not coming back.

    That’s all.

    1. NaoNao*

      Wow! How is it too cold for him (is he a lizard?) and somehow not for you? The only possible thing I can think is he doesn’t drive and you do? But yeah, ugh.

      1. ANNOYED*

        We work at a car dealership, so yes, he drives. Car dealership explains the toxic atmosphere too. I was planning on quitting Monday, but this was just the last straw.

        1. BadStudent*

          I worked at a car dealership briefly in college and it was also a toxic environment. Is this a thing with dealerships??

  114. question about pumping at work?*

    Are there any working moms on here who breastfed but were not able to pump at work? I am 34 pregnant and it won’t be possible for me to pump at work. I wanted to breastfeed but if I can’t pump I’m not sure it will work.

    My workplace has an open plan. Every floor has an open office where we hotdesk. There is a meeting room on every other floor but two of the four walls are glass from floor to ceiling. We are also not allowed to be in those rooms except during meetings. Every floor has a hallway with some single stall all gender washrooms. There are no other rooms. Even managers hotdesk. The high ups and executives are in the main floor and they have offices just off the lobby but I can’t kick one of them out of their office. I’m entry level with less than three years. My work is in a commercial/industrial area and there’s nowhere else for me to go. I don’t have a car, we are on 2 bus routes and most people here take the bus like me.

    We aren’t FMLA eligible and I’ll only be able to take 6 weeks off. My company received an undue hardship exemption for giving pumping space before. The lawyer I talked to wouldn’t even try to fight the company because in the past someone tried and lost the legal case and the lawyer said it is a losing cause.

    Has anyone been able to nurse even if they couldn’t pump at work? I just want to see if I can even try or not? Quitting is not an option and this job has good benefits and pay, better than anything else around here. The turnover is low and I had a hard time funding a full time stable job before I got this one. Anyone been in my shoes before?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Oh, that really sucks, I’m sorry! Is your manager against you pumping or is she willing to work with you on a space?

      Do you have your own car where you could pump? Certainly not ideal and you’d probably want to put up some shades or something, but at least you could have your own space that’s not a bathroom. I don’t know about the electricity component of pumping in a car, but at the very least you could get a hand pump. I don’t know how much milk you could save out of that, but at least it would give you some relief and keep up production, so you could nurse in the evenings.

    2. Murphy*

      I’m thankfully able to pump, so I can’t speak to that. (I don’t know if this is your first child, so please forgive me if I’m telling you something you already know.) Particularly in those early days, it would have been very difficult for me physically to go that long without nursing. I would get uncomfortable and frankly leaky long before 8 hours. I think you can probably still do it, but the physical adjustment when you go back to work and stop nursing during the day may be a bit rough. I definitely recommend reusable nursing pads to capture any leaks.

    3. oldfashionedlovesong*

      I don’t know if this is going to be an option that works for you, because I can very much imagine this being a personal comfort thing, but after reading through your post, I thought I’d at least mention it. My office hosted a two day meeting recently with colleagues who came from around the country. One colleague recently had a baby. She brought this sort of… tent/cover type thing and periodically throughout the day, would put it on, set up her pump underneath, and go for it. She never left the room, never even got up from the table. You could hear the pump of course, but it was rather quiet, almost like ambient noise or a fan. No one cared and the meeting days went off without a hitch. (Everyone present at the meeting, men and women alike, works in women’s health, so that is a very big caveat!)

      So, depending of course on your own comfort level, is there any way you could actually do this at whatever desk you’re using that day, while working? Wearing a cover, for your own privacy – everyone would know, obviously, but hopefully if you had this conversation beforehand with your team people would be understanding (especially if you’ve only had 6 weeks off by the time you come back…) And are there any hotdesks near a wall or less exposed than others? Can you somehow make a request to everyone to reserve one of the less exposed desks during the period of time that you’d like to continue breastfeeding?

      I apologize if this seems utterly out of the question for you, but I thought of how my colleague handled it and thought I’d at least share!

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        I like this suggestion better than car pumping, simply because you’d be able to pump more often during the day, since that is important for production.

        I hate that OP even has to come up with solutions for this! Are there any state laws regarding workplace pumping you can look at, if federal law is not covering it?

      3. LilySparrow*

        This seems like a very normal thing to me. But I bf’ed 2 kids for 1-2 years each.
        I might not have had the gumption to do it when my first was a newborn.

        But if you’d be comfortable, I’d cheer for you.

        Your milk supply, once well-established, will usually adjust to whatever demands you place on it. But in the first few months it is more tricky. Some people can compensate at six weeks with some temporary discomfort. For others, it may be 3 or 4 months before they can deal with going so long between feeds.

        My main concern would be that you might get on a “reverse cycle,” where your baby wants to sleep all day and nurse all night, or that your body mimics that by getting engorged at night.
        But you and your baby will work it out and be fine one way or another.
        Good luck!

    4. Margaret*

      At 6 weeks, I think it would have been challenging, both from an establishing supply and a physical comfort standpoint. I’m sure some kind of combo feeding would be doable! But I’d be concerned that if I spend 6 weeks nursing round the clock, the first 8 hours back at work would be very uncomfortable! And put you at risk of plugged ducts, etc.

      If you’re comfortable pumping in a semi-public situation, it’s definitely possible to do it without actually showing anything. As mentioned above, you can wear a nursing cover over everything. There’s also a product called “freemies”, I actually used this to pump even though I could close my office door, as it was a great way to be hands-free and keep working. Instead of the flanges of the pump sticking out your bra and attaching bottles, there’s this cup that surrounds them, and you stick the whole thing in your bra. So you do have tubes going from your pump into your shirt, but it’s otherwise contained. (like, you can tell there’s something going on, but there’s no risk of flashing nipple).

    5. Mockingjay*

      Can they set some portable partitions or screens in a corner or against a wall? They could buy, rent, or borrow the screens.

      If not, does your job lend itself to telework? If so, I would put together a short proposal to request it. Be as professional as possible. Describe standard working hours, child care arrangements (optional; some companies may ask – YMMV), equipment needed/have, such as dedicated home office space, laptop & software, internet/wireless connection, printer, etc.

      1. Bagpuss*

        I wondered about this. a room divider or screen that you could use in a corner of a meeting room, or even (as they have glass walls, something as simple as a blind or curtain to cover one window plus a screen. Not ideal, but inexpensive and practical, and easy to remove for when they wish to use the room for anything else.

        IS there any specific (female?) manager or executive you are on good terms with who you could ask about using a room? I get that you can’t kick anyone out of their room, but is there anyone you could *ask* to use a room?

    6. Marie B.*

      I’m so sorry that you won’t be able to pump. I’ve never had kids so I don’t have any advice but I just wanted to say I’m sorry and send good vibes and hugs (if you want them).

    7. Competent Commenter*

      Oh this is awful. And it’s so ridiculous that they get an exemption. There are meeting rooms for crying out loud.

      While getting my MA and taking two evening classes per week I used a roomy handicapped bathroom stall that was out of order for weeks. I know bathroom pumping is not great but I didn’t have to sit on the toilet or even get near it. Maybe bring one of the tiny folder seats if you don’t want to stand. If you can’t hack pumping in a room under a coverup I’d use one of those gender neutral bathrooms. You’re going to need to pump 2-3 times per day for comfort and volume.

    8. anon this time*

      I don’t know how well this will work when your baby is still so little (and your supply is presumably high). At best, the transition might be a little tough for a few days. But: nursing is not necessarily all-or-nothing. For at least some people, with at least some babies, it can be possible to nurse at home in the morning, overnight if necessary, and in the morning — and maybe even during the day on weekends? — while the baby has formula during the day and you don’t pump.

      I was lucky enough to be (mostly) on leave until my baby was 8 months old, at which point she was of course also eating some solid food, so my situation was different. But — from when I went back to work until my baby was 12 months old, I did pump at work, but I couldn’t pump enough. So already at that point she got one or two bottles of formula every weekday at day care plus some pumped milk (and I just nursed her on the weekends, no formula).

      Then when my kid hit the 12-month mark, I stopped pumping completely (oh thank goodness), and we’ve still been nursing twice a day for 9 more months — again, this is a much older kid, but my supply has adjusted and it works just fine to nurse only mornings and evenings.

      If you have the ability to talk with a lactation consultant about your situation, they may have some suggestions or be able to lay out a range of options that you could consider. Best of luck to you and your new small person!

    9. question about pumping at work?*

      Thank you to all for offering suggestions. Unfortunately as I said pumping will not be an option so I’m looking to find out if it’s possible to breastfeed when I’m home with the baby if I can’t pump or store milk during working hours.

      1. anon this time*

        I really, really can’t say enough how helpful I found meeting with a lactation consultant to be. If it’s covered on your insurance or not too expensive, it might be worth a try!

      2. Slartibartfast*

        I couldn’t pump at work, the office supported it but I just can’t get let-down with a pump. I was still able to nurse before and after work, and overnight, but I did have to supplement with formula, ended up being 50/50. So it isn’t all or nothing, your body will adjust. And it was a small business, I was out 8 weeks with the first and 6 weeks with the second.

    11. Nita*

      I’m sorry, that sounds awful on so many levels. It’s certainly possible, I kept up nursing for months after I gave up pumping at work. Only it’s hard to say how it will go for you, because you’ll be going back to work before your supply is properly established. If it doesn’t work out, try not to stress about it. Formula is not evil, and if that’s what you’ve got to do, don’t dwell on it. Speaking from experience, being a working mom to a very young baby is already stressful on so many levels, so you’ve got to let go of worries wherever you can.

      Also, you say you’ve got single-stall bathrooms. If you’ve got time for one or two 20-minute breaks in your day, can you pump in one of those with a small manual pump? I’ve done it – not daily, only when I was in field assignments or meetings, but it was often enough. It’s not that bad if the bathroom isn’t horribly gross, the only really bad thing is that it takes so much time. And you can totally walk out with a scarf over the pump and bottles, to avoid attracting attention.

    12. Changeling*

      I don’t know if you are still following this, but yes it is possible to do partial nursing and supplement with formula. After I had trouble getting to pump on time for a while my supply dried up. So I switched my son to just nursing first thing in the morning, before daycare, then again after picking him up, and again before bed. He got formula during the day. Your body will adjust to make as much milk as gets used, so the more you pump/nurse the more you produce.
      The first few weeks switching from feeding full time to before and after work could be uncomfortable, and watch out for mastitis from not completely emptying, it’s a painful inflammation. But any nursing is better than none if you can. Good luck

    13. Thlayli*

      I know you might not want to do this, but they can’t stop you from pumping at your desk. You can use a cover. Personally if I was in that situation that is what I would do. And I wouldn’t even use a cover. I would sit there with my nipple visible though the clear plastic of the pump and if anyone mentioned it I would say “the company is apparently too hard up to pay for a couple of cubicle walls, so here we are”. I’m sure they would be able to swing the cash for a couple of modesty cubicle walls within a week or two!

    14. Tea, please*

      I don’t pump at work anymore. I nurse my daughter in the morning and at night. Once she started sleeping for longer periods at night periods at night, I could pump one side while she needs she nursed in the other in the mornings. I get a bottle then and I pump once I get home before picking her up from daycare. These two bottles plus my weekend morning pumps gets her through most of the week at daycare. We do have to supplement some with formula on the weekends (but this has the added benefit of allowing me to stay home while my husband takes her and our son for an adventure).

    15. Bacon pancakes*

      Is cutting out day feeds five days a week ideal at six weeks, no. But is it do-able? Yes.
      Your breastfeeding journey (I apologize if that sounds all flowery, we just weaned about two months ago so I am getting nostalgic) is your own journey. You can absolutely work towards feeding at night and before/after work! The first few weeks of the change will be challenging as your body over compensates and you have no relief. I would at least find a place to hand express or hand pump the first week for your own comfort. You can store it in a lunch cooler with cold packs. There are some pumping systems (Freemie? i think??) that can be worn under the clothes so you can pump discretely.
      FWIW this is total bullshit that they have been granted an exemption!!! I hope you can find a solution (personally I like the idea of thr conference room with privacy screens).

  115. Anony Llama*

    I work in a matrix organization where Andi hired me & did PAs & 1:1s, but Sam managed my work. Parallel to Sam was Chris, and Pat was Andi’s boss. I started off as a Llama Assistant, but progressed in my work over a few years to be doing a chunk of Llama Management. Sam praised my assistant work to Andi, but blew off most of the 1:1s I tried to schedule, wouldn’t agree to concrete goals, gave me vague answers to problems when I needed help with my llama team, told me flat out he didn’t know enough about what I was doing to give me feedback, and excluded me from Llama meetings. Basically Sam wanted to keep me at the assistant level.

    I was at the point of “your boss sucks and isn’t going to change“ when the company announced a re-org. Sam’s program was cut, Andi left, and Chris took on Andi’s role in the interim on top of her own job. Pat is still my grand-boss for the moment. I have been working under Chris now managing two llama teams; Chris is very happy with my work, and has said so to Pat. The problem is that Chris and Sam are good friends, and Sam would like me back. Chris actually said to me “I can’t keep you away from Sam.” Sam has political capital, and I need to stay on good terms with him, but I can’t face working as Sam’s de facto assistant again. Chris is out on leave at the moment, and Sam has been making overtures; I know I need to talk to Pat about protecting my current assignments. I thought of saying something like ‘Sam wants me in a role that I have outgrown.” Can you help me with other scripts to use?

    1. Reba*

      Talk about your goals and how your current track would support them and Sam’s track would not. I agree with your instinct to not say much about Sam’s management style given the friendship with Chris, but do you think more frankness about your experience could work with Pat?

      I’d also ask Chris frankly to expand on what they meant by “can’t keep you away from Sam” and to talk with you about how Chris sees your future on the team. Ask both Pat and Chris to verbalize your value in your current role and how it looks going forward, and express to them how much you want to stay on the current track.

      Good luck!

  116. Applesauced*

    Part of our annual review is about looking at our career path for the next 3-5 years. I’m in a good place now, but feel a little lost as to what I see or want further than a year or out out; I’d like to talk it out with someone, but don’t really have a mentor.

    How did you find your mentor? Is it someone at work, or just in your industry? If it’s someone at work, is it someone you work with day-to-day, or more peripherally?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      – stay hydrated!
      – wear comfortable shoes you can walk/stand in for HOURS
      – if you are bringing something like a purse or a bag to carry during the day, make sure it’s really comfortable – I got a small, professional looking backpack because hauling around a purse on one shoulder all day hurts

      What type of trip is it, like conference, or client visit? Where are you going?

      1. rosiebyanyothername*

        It’s a client visit in Mexico City! Thankfully I’ll be with a senior coworker who can show me the ropes a bit.

    3. KR*

      Second the suggestion for a good bag and to stay hydrated. Bring a book if that’s your thing for your off time, don’t forget a casual outfit to wear during the evenings and in your hotel room, and have fun! Try a new restaurant, walk around a new city, ect.

    4. Engineer Girl*

      First, I had a wallet with an extra pocket for temporarily storing receipts.
      I bought a multi compartment coupon holder for my receipts. This lived in my computer case. It had 6 sections – transportation unreconciled, lodging unreconciled, food unreconciled, transportation reconciled, lodging reconciled, food reconciled. Receipts would go in the appropriate section.
      I would log in to the travel website and try to reconcile as often as possible.

      If you are eating by yourself then think about eating at the bar. The waiting times are less. And many times you can get a seat at the bar when there would be an hour plus wait for a table. This is especially true at hot restaurants.

      I usually buy healthy breakfast and lunch food at the grocery. This saves money and gives me more to spend at dinner.

    5. BlueBloodMoon*

      As a woman, I wear black as a foundation to the wardrobe and throw in an extra camisole. Don’t futz with a lot of jewelry or changes, unless that makes you happy. Bring your own water bottle or coffee cup. Hang things up (and I pack by wardrobe – everything for day 1 on one hanger etc). Don’t leave your charger behind. Be ready for an extra event. Be ready for a lot of weird down time …. without my life at home I’m stumped what to do. I used to pack a whole extra bag of papers to sort thru or journals to read and go through them all on the big hotel bed. And if you don’t ever do it on recreational travel, and you can expense it, do room service in the mornings if it suits you. And do think about your expense structure. I work for a frugal organization, but a taxi from the airport is totally legit (even though I would usually take public transportation myself). But you are being compensated to be fresh and prepared and rested…so I have a different threshold for using taxis or room service etc. If going to a conference, decide if you want to bring stuff home or not. They will throw a bunch of stuff at you – I won’t accept any of it. And think about your work bag – if lugging a laptop or lots of walking, have the right set up to keep yourself happy.

  118. NaoNao*

    Any advice on a “good problem to have”: juggling multiple interviews while still employed?
    I’m ramping up a search after back to back layoffs barely missed me, and have been getting phone screens, phone interviews, and first/second/third interview requests. The phone screens and interviews are manageable–I simply schedule them for a good time and step away from my desk or schedule them for after work/before work. In person interview are harder, obviously :)
    I’ve used PTO once and I’ve also used my lunch hour on WFH days, but it’s kind of adding up here, and I’m not sure what to do. I don’t want to turn down potentials or insist on odd hours (early/late) but I also feel like it’s getting to the point where it’s a bit ethically shady to keep using lunch hours or leaving early/making up time.

    Any advice from those in a similar position?

    1. H.C.*

      I don’t think it’s unethical to use your lunch hour (which is your personal time to use as you see fit anyways) or even coming in late/leaving early if you make up the time & your overall work isn’t impacted by it. However, if it is a longer interview session (2+ hours) I’d generally take a PTO day for it.

    2. AnonyMouse*

      I’m also ramping up my search (no interviews yet though). I’m also planning on using PTO to either come in late/leave early if possible. If a place insists on a weird time, I may just have to take a full day (my current organization provides quite a bit of PTO and I’ve barely used it up to this point). But I also agree with the other person that your lunch time is your time to use as you see fit.

  119. AnonyMouse*

    So after quite a bit of contemplation, I’ve decided that I’m going to start actively job searching. I really wanted to try to stick out my current role for more than a year, but it’s reaching the point where I just can’t see myself staying in this environment. I recently came across an opening in an office I used to work for (I loved it there! Only reason I left was because I went back to school). It’s a different type of role, but I think that I still meet the qualifications. I know two people who still work there, but they work in a different area and likely won’t be involved with the hiring. My friends are suggesting that I reach out to them to let them know I’m applying. Do you guys think this would be a good idea? I just don’t want to do anything that would hurt my chances of getting an interview.

    1. Competent Commenter*

      I don’t think it would hurt to reconnect with your old coworkers. Just be clear why you’re doing so. You don’t expect that they’ll help you get hired but you want them to know that you’re applying and are so glad to see they’re still there, wish them well, etc. If you know them well enough it may be helpful to have a brief phone chat to hear how things are going in your old office and to confirm it’s still a good place to work. Things change and you may learn it’s become dysfunctional or toxic in the interim.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        That’s a fair point, and I appreciate your input! I was actually only a temp when I was there (I probably should have included that in my original post), so I’ll probably stick with an email. I also think that I will apply first, and then reach out. I definitely get that places change (I’m currently in a rapidly changing environment that is slowly revealing it’s dysfunction day by day), but I checked the staff page and there were several names that I recognized. There are two still there that I worked directly with. I typically look a longevity like that as a good sign (I was there maybe three years ago?).

  120. BRR*

    How do you respond when you get a raise that’s lower than expected? I asked for a raise and promotion at the end of last year and heard that I will get the raise (not sure about the promotion) but for various reasons I have a feeling it will be lower than what I asked for and deserve. This comes after last year where my departing manager had said she was working on a raise and promotion but left before raises and promotions were announced (we only do it once a year). I didn’t receive one so I asked my grandboss and she agreed that what I asked for was appropriate but was only able to secure a third of what I asked for and said something would be in the works for 2018.

    I’m pretty pissed that I was told last year I would be getting a raise and promotion and only got a tiny sum several months after it should have gone into affect. If my manager gives me a tiny number and no promotion, besides asking why I didn’t receive more can I ask for a higher number or is it usually final? I know the usual advice would be to ask what I need to do to get the full raise next year but given the history, I should be at that number and seniority level now (really last year). I really don’t want to just say thanks because there’s a good chance it will be insulting. I’ve been looking for a new job but there’s not much out there plus at this point it makes sense to stay to vest in my retirement.

    1. CatCat*

      How long before you vest? I’d keep looking with plans to leave shortly after vesting if nothing has been resolved.

      When this happened to me, I said I was disappointed that the number was not higher since I had been told it was appropriate, but I appreciated my manager’s efforts. I ultimately responded by leaving for another job 10 months later (when magically more money was a possibility… no thanks.)

  121. forcedtobeAdmin*

    So for a while now I’ve been self-employed/freelancing, but a few months ago I started a full-time job as a Teapot Designer. I’m still in my probation period, which ends in a week and a half, but right now it looks good that I’ll be hired on permanently once the 90 days is up, since I’m being given assignments that are due after my probation period ends and my manager has told me he likes my work.

    The issue is that I’m absolutely certain I don’t want this job at all. When I applied for and interviewed for the job, it required a lot of teapot design knowledge, a teapot design portfolio, and was described to me as mostly teapot design. But for a number of days now, I’ve been doing essentially admin work. I have teapot design projects I’ve had to put off because my boss keeps assigning me admin tasks that he says are higher priority.

    There is no one with an admin title here to do these tasks instead. For some reason the teapot designers do it; one is senior here and in a supervisor role, the other is in his first job out of college and has said he doesn’t really know what he wants to do with his career. He has said he likes doing mindless work, so I don’t think he minds the admin work much when he does it.

    I don’t want to do admin work. The description of my job duties when I applied to my job did not include admin work. When recruiters contact me, it’s about teapot design/development, or advanced teapot design. My job title is Teapot Designer, and future employers won’t look favorably upon the non-teapot design work I do here, so it’s literally a huge step back in my career to do it. I’ll have to leave it off my resume. The only way for me to do really great teapot design work right now is in the evenings/weekends, which sucks, because that’s my job title.

    Additionally, I accepted a smaller salary here than I wanted because I was told that there’s a good work/life balance and I’d be able to work from home, but now that I work here it’s clear that’s not true. Their sick time/PTO/work from home policies aren’t great, and the manager here is a “butt in chair” type. Employees often come in to work while sick, or work from home if they’re contagious, because of the attitude towards time off. An employee’s performance-based bonus was cut solely because she took time off to have a baby, even though they’re thrilled with her work and she’s essential to the business.

    How do I figure out the best timing to leave without burning bridges, and how to politely say why I’m leaving? Do I just say “I prefer to only to teapot design work and this job would be a better fit for someone else” and offer to stay on for a while to document my work/finish up projects? Do I say “feel free to hire me on part-time as a work-from-home teapot designer,” since that’s what I’ve done for the bulk of my career? Or since it would be hard financially, should I suck it up and stay for long enough to be sure I can afford to quit?

    1. Reba*

      I’d stay until you have your next position lined up, since you say it would be a hardship. *Unless* you think you can do better freelancing, for them and/or for other clients.

      When you leave, do the standard 2 weeks and if they ask, you can simply say “the new job was a better fit for my goals, I wish you all the best at Don’t Know What Designer Means, Inc.”

      1. forcedtobeAdmin*

        I can do better freelancing, as I have in the past. I mostly didn’t do well last year because of depression caused by a medication change, which took the wind out of my sails for about eight months. I stopped producing passive income work. The issue is over with now, and I’m starting to get my passive income back into place. In the past I’ve made more in passive income per month than I do right now working 40 hours a week.

        I honestly only started interviewing for full-time jobs because I thought that maybe my depression was caused by being isolated all day working from home. Then I changed medications, and now the depression is gone, despite me hating every moment of my day job and wanting nothing more than to go home and design. I wish I had my days to myself again, because if I could spend even just four hours a day building up my passive income, I would be making more money in 2-3 months. But I’m just drained every day.

        It’s so hard to know what the better choice is: quitting ASAP or waiting! The allure of doing skilled work for myself again is very hard to resist when every day I loathe all the tasks I’m being given, and my boss for essentially performing a bait-and-switch on me. I’m also worried that if I stay too long I’ll just become bitter and angry, procrastinate all the admin tasks I hate doing, and turn into a bad employee. On the other hand, freelancing is so unpredictable.

  122. Calling All Vet Techs*

    I commented 2 or 3 weeks ago about needing a career change. Thanks to all who responded, especially the nurse/hospital worker (I am terrible with names) who went above and beyond for me. I wanted to update.
    I’ve decided to take a leap of faith and have enrolled in an accelerated phlebotomist/ EKG tech/ certified medical assistant course. I’m about 80% really excited and 20% terrified, because I am commiting to being unemployed til June and cashing out some 401k money (eep!) to do it. Hubs is supportive, but there’s definitely a side of Mom Guilt spending this time and money on myself. But Hubs can (semi) retire in 5 years, the kids will still be in school, and having a job with healthcare benefits for them is definitely a factor. I will update you all on the other side :)

    2. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I didn’t see your post but made the transition from vet tech three years ago – it was just too physically demanding of a job and I worked too many hours to make so little money. Transition was scary but very worth it! I thought about Medical Assistant also, I hope you love it! Probably fewer of your patients will bite :-) I wish you the best.

  123. lilaaaaaah*

    I’m currently in the process of leaving my job, and my Line Manager just resigned (for similar reasons to me). I have two questions:

    1. Who do I ask for a reference? Do I ask my Area Manager, whose emotionally abusive behaviour forced my Line Manager and myself out, or do I just go via HR and offer my Line Manager up as a personal reference?

    2. What do I say when interviewers/application forms ask why I’m leaving? I feel like saying that my department is not-so-quietly imploding is probably bad form, so how do I phrase it in a way that doesn’t sound like I’m throwing shade?

    1. AMT*

      1. It’s pretty normal for applicants not to want prospective employers to contact their current jobs, so you’d be justified in not offering up *anyone* from your current position as a reference, manager or not. But it would be fine to list your former line manager, even if she’s no longer in the position, since she probably knows your work better than anyone else. It would also be okay to list a coworker.

      2. I’d lean toward not being 100% candid with them if your reasons are mostly negative. It’s okay to say something truthful that addresses some of your reasons for leaving, but not the overwhelmingly negative ones (e.g. “I’m looking for a role with more opportunities for advancement,” “I’m seeking a position with more opportunity to do X and Y tasks,” or whatever’s applicable to you). Full disclosure, I actually did give a negative reason in the interview when I applied for my current job, but (a) it was because I’d been there for less than a year, and (b) I framed it in a diplomatic, even-handed way.

      1. lilaaaaaaah*

        Thank you so much for the advice. May I ask what reason you gave? I’ve also been here less than a year, and I’m worried that prospective employers will see that as my fault (I stayed at a previous job for the full two years I was contracted to work there, but I’m still very early in my career, and two years isn’t /that/ long).

        1. AMT*

          I said that I had some ethical/professional issues with the way my facility operated and named a few examples. I work in healthcare and patient safety is very important, and the place I worked was known to be a bit shady, so it was plausible without sounding vindictive.

      1. lilaaaaaaaah*

        I would, but the last time I heard from him was the day after he left- since then, he hasn’t been answering calls or emails.

  124. Liane*

    I got a new job! It’s a half-time page position at one of the local library branches, and I am very much looking forward to starting Monday afternoon. They moved quite fast. I had an interview a week ago Thursday. (I mentioned it last Friday here but was in the afternoon, so don’t know how many people saw it.) Friday morning I got a text from Friend, who I have worked with on writing projects and was listed in the Additional References part of the application. “I think your interview yesterday went really well because I just got a reference call from them.” Sure enough, Monday afternoon, I got a call with a job offer!

    I have really needed something that brings in more than my remote copy editing/writing gig, which I will still be doing. The page job is a set schedule, so I am considering continuing to search for another part time job. I am going to wait for a few weeks and see whether I would want to work a second job just on my days off, or if I would be okay working mornings at job 2, then doing 5 hours as a page with a break of 1-3 hours between.

    1. NaoNao*

      I loved being a page! It’s a fun easy to do job, especially part time. My only challenge was that the “full librarians” with their MLS could be a tad territorial at times, especially over helping patrons, but that’s understandable: tax dollars pay for their expertise and they want to ensure patrons get the best experience.

      1. Liane*

        I hope this branch doesn’t have any of those librarians! Yikes! Regardless of field, that type deserves to handle a long line of difficult patrons, and I will happily leave them to it, while I deal with a cart of books & DVDs that can’t yell at me.

        Hypatia was very upfront that working the desk work was not a primary part of this job. Once trained, I will probably be doing a few 1 hour gigs in a 5 or 8 hour shift. Having done customer service desk (quite well) in retail I am fine with not doing so much of it. Incidentally, one of my work/study jobs was as a shelf reader, making sure the books didn’t stay out of order for long.

    2. DoctorateStrange*

      CONGRATS! I used to be a page and am now a part-time receptionist at the main entrance. I will say I do miss being able to listen to my podcasts when I worked as a page, but both positions have been rewarding for me, especially as I’m going to library school at the moment.

      I do know of a few other pages that had a second part-time job, so it’s not out of the question and I wish you luck on that.

      Are the pages under circulation in your library or are they with reference? As a page, I worked in the circulation department and interacted more often with the clerks. I only worked close to the librarians when I was transferred to reference.

      If it helps, people tended to ask the pages for assistance when they were on the floor, I think mistaking them (and me at the time) for librarians. I asked the librarians if it was okay and they all just told me that while the policy is that we direct the patrons to them, they don’t mind if we help out, especially if they themselves were busy with other patrons.

  125. The Ginger Ginger*

    Recently applied and interviewed for a stretch position with my current employer. I know I can bring a lot to the table, but like I said, some of this new role will be a stretch for me.

    For people who’ve made the leap successfully – What would you recommend for your first 30-90 days in a new role like that? Obviously listen and learn, but anything else? It’s a new department for me and would be a new manager.

  126. bohtie*

    hoo boy. so about six months ago, I came out as trans/nonbinary to my friends/family/girlfriend/etc. So far, so reasonably good. I’ve started treatment, and if all goes well I can have surgery in about a year. (I’m in my mid-30s and this has been a long time coming.)

    What I’m trying to figure out is if I should come out at work, and if so, how. I’ve been at my job for a decade; it’s a reasonably inclusive environment (as far as government agency-type things are concerned, and my state also has decent legal protections for trans peopl on the job) but there’s basically no representation for LGBTQs except cis, monosexual (gay & lesbian) folks. I don’t know any out trans people at work, in short, and our HR doesn’t really have any policies about it or anything like that. We have a resource group (like a networking club type thing that hosts socialization and education events) for LGBTQ folks but in the last ten years, no one has ever talked about trans folks.

    I’m not afraid to be the “first” one even to talk about it in the office, because I grew up a butch in a rural, homophobic small town and have been out since I was a teenager even when it was severely unsafe, but I just don’t know what to do. Like, do I have to come out to everyone in private? Do I just tell my boss and hope it trickles down from there? Do I just not bother to tell anyone? I’ve been extremely butch since I was ten, and I got this job in boots, a suit and tie, a buzzcut, and no makeup, so aside from the top surgery thing, my appearance is not likely to change all that much, and my coworkers have always been pretty accepting and good-intentioned if not always super-educated about things like this. All the resources I’ve seen so far have been about not getting fired for being trans in, like, a retail environment, and/or how to deal with being trans at job interviews and things of that nature. I’m mostly worried about the fact that these people have known me for ten years as something else and I’m not sure how to talk about that.

    As a bonus, I can’t change my gender marker because I don’t live in a state that has anything other than the binary, and I won’t be changing my legal name. (Outside of work, I go by a different name that sounds like a nickname for my birth name, but since all my work stuff email etc. is under my birth name, that’s what everyone calls me at the office and only at the office and it’s starting to make me feel a little bit tense.) So I really have no idea how to approach any of this. I know there are a few trans folks in the commentariat, and if y’all or anyone else with ideas would like to chime in, I’d be much obliged. <3

    1. Michaela*

      I have no advice, but congratulations on coming out, and I hope that whatever decision(s) you make about being out at work, everyone is supportive and kind.

    2. Little Twelvetoes*

      I’m a cis-female, but I’m going to chime in anyway.
      Do you have coworkers that you trust and are close to? I would start with them. If one of my coworkers came out to me, my first reaction would be to tell them how much I care about them and then my second reaction would be to ask if I could help them. Perhaps the trusted coworkers can give you advice specific to your workplace and help you navigate the work environment in some way.
      P.S. Congratulations and good luck!

    3. Alton*

      I found it really hard to find good coming out advice for work because so much of it seemed to revolve around the assumption that you were transitioning “completely” — ie, changing your gender presentation noticeably, legally changing your name, going on hormones, etc. It was hard for me because I’m not medically transitioning (at least not yet), and I already go by my preferred name and dress the way I want.

      I decided that unless I was noticeably changing my appearance or changing my name in an obviously gendered way, I didn’t feel the need to have a formal discussion. I’ve come out more gradually at work. However, I have a pretty LGBT-friendly workplace and I’m not the only trans person. I’m also not committed to correcting people if they innocently misgender me.

      Personally, I think it would be okay to privately let people know as you feel comfortable, and otherwise weigh this out based on how noticeable the change is, how important it is to you, and how much support you need. For example, switching to a nickname that’s close to your legal name might not attract very much attention, but going by something very different might. I don’t think you need to come out if you’re getting top surgery, but if you start HRT, that may involve more noticeable changes. If you have the feeling that people might be surprised/confused or you might get pushback (if you start using the men’s room, for example), that’s when it might be especially helpful to talk to your manager or HR. But with more subtle changes, I think you have more leeway.

      Good luck!

    4. Undine*

      I worked in a small company that had no LGBTQ support at all, and had a coworker who transitioned. She did change her name. I don’t know the whole process (because I only saw the public side of it), but first she came out to some people privately (including me) and also talked to her boss and to HR. I’m guessing HR did some research and decided what to do. They must have coordinated what they would do and worked with IT to change her name. I believe she also came out privately to coworkers on her team. Finally, at some point her boss sent out an announcement, which was coordinated with the name change in IT. The announcement included the name change and also addressed the fact that the coworker identified as transgender.

      I’m guessing that the coworker and/or HR found info and templates on the internet, because the email her boss sent is way more sensitive than he would have been on his own. The coworker also sent me a long word document about what it was to be transgender, and I think maybe some links.

    5. deesse877*

      I notice that you asked specifically about support from LGB people for Trans folks, when the latter are rare. My own workplace (a very large public agency in a major city) has seen trans visibility go from almost nothing to very important in, I’d say, roughly a three-year span. My sense is that LGB people (of which I am one) are sometimes ignorant but very solid. I have seen zero petty bullshit like invalidating trans identity as such (with the caveat that, of course, I definitely am not the authority–trans colleagues are, and they may choose not to tell me about real problems). It doesn’t seem to activate the sort of unfair personal criticism that, say, bi people with opposite-sex partners can get. NOw, that said, it does look to me like LGB people (incl. myself) need nearly the same level of education as straight people on things like pronoun use and the true nature of the bathroom dilemma, or the specific character of transphobia; they/we tend to grok the coming-out narrative, but not the daily grind, if you see what I mean.

      Congrats and good luck!

    6. Out and Equal*

      A solid organization that addresses LGBT issues in the workplace is Out and Equal Workplace Advocates. While they’re based in San Francisco and you may be in another state, they have a broad focus and might have some suggestions. Check them out online.

  127. MMM*

    I saw a job posting this week and while researching more about the company, I found out that they require uniforms for all employees. This includes both those on the production floor (which I could understand a little more), and all customer service, HR, marketing, sales etc. From what pictures I could find, it looks like polos/shirts/sweaters with the logo embroidered, all in the company color.

    Personally, this was a turn-off to me, and struck me as a bit too 1984-esque, considering it’s a typical corporate position, and not something where you would expect uniforms (food service, some retail etc.) I’m just very curious to see if anyone else has encountered this, or what anyone else thinks of it. Is it as weird as it seems to me? (For reference, the company is in the US)

    1. Just Peachy*

      It seems odd to me for a corporate job.

      To me, there aren’t really any corporate jobs where it makes sense to have everyone wear a uniform (except maybe those on the product floor, as you mentioned).

    2. k*

      It’s weird to me. I get it for people in like retail situations, or maybe for a company outing where you’re representing to the public. But in the office is weird.

    3. NaoNao*

      Yeah, I made a promise to myself once leaving the retail world that I would *never* wear a uniform again. To me, it’s a perk, a *major* perk not to have to wear a uniform or even a strict dress code (such as with clothing retail “only this season’s and our brand’s clothing”) and I would not want to give that up.
      The job would have to pay like, high 6 figures for me to consider it.

    4. periwinkle*

      This could be my employer. At one – and only one – of its U.S. sites, all personnel are expected to wear shirts/tops with the company logo. This confused the heck out of me when I discovered that my colleagues (in typical corporate positions) wore logo shirts every day.

      There’s a variety of styles and colors available in a wide range of sizes but nevertheless, you’ve got to wear something from the catalog. Odd. I can’t remember the rationale behind it, but it ensures that I’ll never request a transfer to that location.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Personally, I think this is great! It makes dressing for work incredibly easy. And (often) cheaper. If you like more individuality, can you accessorize the uniform?

  128. oldfashionedlovesong*

    I can’t decide if this is a “go get your dog” situation or not. Most people in my office are doubled or tripled up in cubes or offices. We recently acquired a few new cubes but no one has opted to move. One is a double cube, one is probably too small for anything but storage, and the last is quite a large one person cube. All three are quite far down the suite from the rest of my team. I currently share a medium office with my boss and another coworker. We all get along really well and I actually have a lot of fun sharing with them (I live alone so our 8 hours together is my primary social interaction of the day). But sometimes it is hard to focus, and when my boss and I have to be on the same phone call, I have to leave the room because there’s a weird echo listening to her voice both through the phone and in the room – so I take those calls in any empty conference room I can find, without my computer (desktop). I also have my back to boss and coworker, and I find it kind of intimidating to have my boss literally three feet away from me at my back.

    Anyway, during my performance review last week, I raised the idea of moving to one of these new cubes. I suggested the two-person one, which I’d eventually probably share with an intern, but she countered with having the big one-person cube to myself. Her words were something like “I don’t want to push you out of our office, but if you want to take that cube, I would support that, and [our space-allocating person] would be very happy someone is using them”. I was talking with our director later and mentioned I might move, and she was supportive. I’ve also been offered a printer that no one is using, and there’s even the possibility of ordering a couch (I said it was a big cube!) So, this all seems great. But… I seem to be struggling to make the decision to move. I feel… guilty? greedy? Help me decide whether to stay in my three-person office that is usually fun but sometimes inconvenient, or move to a far cube where I will be mostly isolated from my team (besides weekly staff meetings, daily lunch together, and a very robust slack chat)…

    1. Pollygrammer*

      If nobody else has requested the cube, I don’t think you should feel guilty or greedy at all. The isolation is another question though.

      1. oldfashionedlovesong*

        Yeah… as I commented below, one person did say something about that. I don’t know if it was truly a “hey, consider this!” or a way of trying to discourage the move. But I do like being alone – I live alone, love to travel alone, and often opt out of group lunches because I just need some alone time in the middle of the day. I feel like if I sat alone, I’d be more likely to go to group lunches and have more energy for interaction.

        1. Pollygrammer*

          I think you should take it then!

          I definitely don’t think you should risk sharing a cube with an intern :)

    2. Weyrwoman*

      If you get the couch, you could extend an open invite to your team to work on your couch with you if they have laptops?

      1. oldfashionedlovesong*

        Yeah definitely! I already suggested it to one person offhand (she’s the one who would order the couch for me, and it just came up organically) and I could absolutely extend the invitation to the whole team during a staff meeting.

    3. Bagpuss*

      don’t feel guilty. It sounds as though everyone is supportive and there aren’t people likely to feel cheated or passed over.

      1. oldfashionedlovesong*

        I think my feelings about cheating/passing over others are really coming into play here because I’m relatively new (March will be one year), and I am also one of about five people who gets to enjoy what others might perceive as a perk – frequent work travel. (I say “perceive” because even though work travel is, truly, a lot of work and exhausting at times, it also has its fun moments, and those who don’t travel might only see the fun side of it.)

        But you’re right, most everyone has been supportive – the only neutral-to-negative comment I got from one person was “you live alone, right? Won’t it be isolating to sit alone too? Maybe you should consider that.” (That didn’t help my indecisiveness and is part of why I crowd-sourced people’s thoughts here today!) But that was just one person, and I think overall I feel better about this after everyone’s comments!

  129. terabitz*

    Gah, I’ve spent most of my week this week at home sick from the flu. :( Where I work though, they stress staying home when sick. Only loss is that I won’t get paid for my time off due to being part-time and having no sick days available, but at least my job security is fine.

  130. Lillian Gilbreth*

    Dumb question about expensing things for work:

    At my job if we have to stay past about 8, we can expense a cab or an Uber/Lyft home. I generally call a car because it’s more convenient and often cheaper than a cab. However, at least on Lyft receipts they show the cost of the car and the tip separately. It’s still okay for me to request reimbursement for the tip? For some reason it feels weird/irresponsible with client money since it shows I intentionally spent a dollar or two more than was necessary.

    2. friday fran*

      One of my employers had a policy that we should tip as typical (typically tip? through the tulips?) because that was part of being good representatives of our employer, which the employer would pay. For hotel cleaner cash tips, I think that was one of the things we were supposed to cover with our miscellaneous/incidentals per diem.

    3. Thlayli*

      Ask if there is a policy. I think my old company had a policy on what was a “reasonable” tip which was actually up to double the standard tip in the area. I would just give the standard tip and expense that.

  131. Youngin*

    Hello Everyone!

    Are long nails considered inappropriate or unprofessional? I have longish nails (not ridiculously long, just longer than the norm) and someone has recently commented on them in a rude way. Her exact words were “No one will take you seriously with nails like that”. I never have my nails in obnoxious colors or so long I cant type or that it hinders my ability to work(for my ladies that get their nails done, at the salon the length would be considered medium). I never put any glitter or stones and its always one solid color (no ‘accent’ nail) typically only light nude colors or other variations of tan or light pink. In fact, I often get compliments on them, maybe once or twice a week from superiors in my company and out of it, male and female.

    It is important to note that the woman who made the comment doesn’t have a great professional reputation, and oftentimes comes off as catty. Which is why I wanted to explore other professional opinions first. She also has made comments about hating that women feel the need to draw attention to things that “shouldn’t have attention” meaning nails or eye makeup (I don’t wear makeup to work, ever). She doesn’t ever take care of her nails, and it shows tremendously. I personally think her lack of nail grooming is distracting and unprofessional in itself, but I digress.

    What do other readers think? I am going to try and attach a link to a picture of how my nails look so you can see exactly what I have going on. If my nails are actually fine for a professional environment, how would you suggest I push back on this in the future? She is older than me, by 15 or so years (I’m 25 and shes in her early 40’s) and is not my superior in anyway. In fact, she works for one of our subcontractors (I’m in construction) that I am frequently forced to meet with on behalf of my company. Thanks for your help and Happy Friday!

    Please note: The nails in the link are not mine, but the shape, color and length are similar. Maybe occasionally a tad bit shorter.

    2. Little Twelvetoes*

      “Wow. That is a really strange thing to comment on, Jane.”
      Your coworker is toxic. Do not normalize her behavior.

      1. Youngin*

        Thank you! Do you think having longish nails could be seen as unprofessional? I don’t know if she is right or just making me self concious

        1. Little Twelvetoes*

          One of the most professional women I work with (I really respect her) has longish, gorgeously painted nails. They are very professional looking – her ring fingers even had little flowers painted on them yesterday. I see hers and then I look at my short, sometimes uneven, plain (but clean) nails and think hers look so much more professional than mine.

          Too long could be a problem – but you mention that yours don’t interfere with typing, so I think you are fine.

          Your coworker sounds weird in other ways, too. I would not trust her judgement. In fact, her opinion might be the opposite of what you should believe.

          1. Little Twelvetoes*

            P.S. Both my coworker with the gorgeous nails, and me who covets them, are in the older category of ages (late 40s, maybe early 50s?).

      2. oldfashionedlovesong*

        Perfect script. Youngin, as someone whose nails break if I look at them sideways, I hope you keep on enjoying your beautiful, healthy nails!

    3. Old Jules*

      Who has time to notice? Really? I see female leaders with well groomed everything, including well kept longish nails and there is nothing unprofessional about it.

    4. Stormy*

      It really depends on the industry, unfortunately. I am in an industrial field, construction-adjacent, and deal with a lot of “good old boys” on a regular basis. They would definitely take me less seriously if I had long painted nails. It’s not fair, but it’s real.

      That said, if that’s the concern that she’s trying to convey to you, she’s going about it in a lousy and hostile way.

      1. Alexis Thompson*

        I currently work directly in construction. I am a field supervisor (actually just passed my GC exam in December wooh!) and I am pretty used to being not only the only women, but the only person under 35 on a job site. I have had no problems from the subcontractors I hire to work with me on site, and they all respect me, in fact my boss laughs at me occasionally because when i walk on a site, all the men look scared. However ive found that people that are going to show you respect, will do it regardless of nail color or length. I was just wondering if maybe i was in the wrong, which from other comments it sounds like a no.

        I did have to fire a few men in my first months with the company due to certain men not liking female authority and making it clear they wouldn’t respect a woman on a construction site (and a few more for sexual harassment, but that’s another story) but this particular woman is the only person that constantly undermines me. Luckily she isn’t a coworker and i don’t meet with her often, just at the occasional meeting where im forced to go to the office.

    5. Goya de la Mancha*

      While I personally would not be able to function with nails that long…I see nothing unprofessional about them.

    6. Pollygrammer*

      Ignore her nonsense. Nice nails and makeup are a personal choice and not the least bit unprofessional.

    7. mreasy*

      They are fine, and I am extremely jealous that you can maintain them! I had extensions for my wedding and it was like all my nail dreams had come true. But I’m back to ol’ stubbyhands now – which is surely less professional than a nice manicure!!

  132. FB group woes*

    I’m a member of a Facebook group for people in my (somewhat niche) field. I think the group in general is great, there’s a lot of good knowledge-sharing and just general commiseration that can be hard to find IRL. However, one thing I really don’t like about the group, and which is making me question whether I should stay, is that the group has a tendency to immediately jump on errors, mistakes, or other issues they spot from peers in the field, and publicize them within the group so that everyone can comment on them.

    The unfortunate nature of our work is such that it is *really* easy to make a mistake; it’s often not caught until the product is publicized; these mistakes can’t be fixed or taken back after the fact, and these mistakes are often displayed/sent to huge swaths of people.

    On one hand, I totally get why these types of things are shared in the group – we’ve all had something similar happen, and it can be kind of nice to know that it’s normal in our field to make hugely public mistakes. On the other hand, it just makes me feel icky to point and laugh at other people’s errors. Especially because a lot of the time, these mistakes are so easy to make and there are many things that could have contributed to it. They could literally happen to anyone for any reason. And, many of the mistakes that are called out in the group are mistakes that only people in the field would recognize – I’d be willing to bet the average person wouldn’t even know or care that there is a mistake.

    The posts often end up sounding pretty mean-spirited and it makes me not want to share any details about my own work, in case I end up on their list and end up getting roasted for something that is out of my control to fix.

    I guess that’s a long-winded way of asking if there is a way to tell people in the group to lay off it and maybe don’t call out errors when they don’t have anything especially helpful or constructive to offer? Or should I just keep my mouth shut, and not contribute to the pointing and laughing?

    1. Little Twelvetoes*

      don’t call out errors when they don’t have anything especially helpful or constructive to offer

      I think you have the script you need right there. Also, check out the commenting rules on this site, and use some of those to inspire you.

  133. newbie*

    Would anyone be able to point me in the right direction/give advice on what types of shoes are suitable/usual for day-to-day wear in an office – and for an interview, if that’s different!

    For context, I’m coming to the end of a PhD and looking towards getting a non-academic job, but my only real office experience was a summer internship, so I mostly wore (smart) flat black slip on shoes. I feel like I have a pretty good handle on what interview/office appropriate clothes would be thanks to previous posts on this site, but I have no idea what kind of shoes would work in winter – or is it relatively common to arrive in a pair of shoes more suited to the weather, and then change?

    (I’m in the UK, if that makes a difference, so I’d rather avoid spending a lot of time with damp feet if it’s at all possible!)

    1. AnnaleighUK*

      I do the ‘outdoor shoes then change’ thing in the winter – stomp in wearing my big walking boots then take them off and swap for my flats or heels depending on how I’m feeling. Most people in my office do that especially those that commute by train.

    2. Goya de la Mancha*

      I always change shoes. No reason to mess up nice expensive work shoes for the elements when the boots will do! We have a small office, but I don’t think it’s uncommon for people to do this.

    3. Serious Sam*

      In the UK I would have thought “(smart) flat black slip on shoes” would be perfect, but a lot depends on the field you are going into.

    4. Thlayli*

      I’ve worked in the U.K. And I think it’s pretty common in most offices for women to wear trainers or something for the commute and change at their desks to office shoes. British commuting does not go well with pretty shoes!

  135. Anonymouse*

    How cold is too cold for an office?

    I am one of those people who is always hot and even I’m cold. The thermometer on my clock says it is 62 degrees at my desk. For the fun part, there’s no one else around me and the thermostat is locked/controlled by facilities (which is building management and they only take requests from our out of town corporate office) so there’s no option of a mass revolt.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I just googled the OSHA recs and it says “OSHA recommends temperature control in the range of 68-76° F and humidity control in the range of 20%-60%. ”

      So your office is not meeting OSHA recommendations. Is that a consistent temp? If it’s lower than normal, there might be a maintenance issue that needs to be raised and addressed.

      1. Anonymouse*

        I’m wondering if it’s because I sit by myself (there are about 70 empty cubes around me that I’ve counted – the company shifted to work at home work and I’m one that didn’t get transitioned to that) and somehow it’s designed to compensate for body heat.

        1. Thlayli*

          Contact corporate office and send them a photo of the thermostat and a link to the guidelines and request a change. Be polite first time, short second and on the third contact tell them you will escalate if you don’t hear back within x days. Then go to your line manager with the email trail.

    3. Chaordic One*

      At least you’ve got proof. My old job was always freezing and being a bit of a smart-ass I went and brought in a thermometer that I pinned to the bulletin board above my desk. According to the thermometer the room was almost always at 70 degrees.

      I think that part of the reason I felt cold all the time was because the building was built on a “slab” foundation and we were sitting on a concrete floor (even though there was carpeting above it). I ended up almost always wearing rather clunky (but funky) looking shoes into which I put “thermal” insoles which worked quite well.

    4. ..Kat..*

      This is a case where a space heater under your desk makes sense. The company does not want to heat a space that can accommodate 70 plus people when there is only one person there.

  136. alice*

    I am currently in the middle of a masters program, and I’ve been applying to real jobs and internships for the summer when I graduate. I recently applied for one in particular that I’d love. I did a Skype interview because the position is in a different city. A few days later, the hiring manager emailed me and asked if it would be possible to “bring me on part-time” until I was available for full time work. I said of course, and got all login details from the company, signed an NDA, and met the rest of the staff via another Skype session. We set another time to go over exactly what kind of work was involved, and I assumed we’d be going over pay as well. Well when I asked about that toward the end of the meeting, he said it would be volunteer work until something changed.

    I am putting myself through school and honestly don’t have the time for a huge unpaid commitment. I do have a current part time job that I was planning on letting go of in order to do this. He’s asking for a solid 10-15 hours per week, which isn’t that much, but it is time that I need to be spending on paid work. I’m further concerned that there is no definite time when this could turn into a paid job, and also it’s not like a formal internship where I’d be getting a reference and school credits. Am I being petty or is this a bit unreasonable? It never occurred to me to make sure I would get paid as the job I applied for is full time and paid according to the salary on the job site. I am thinking about going back to him and explaining that with the course load I have and my financial situation, it’s just not possible for me to continue at this workload (I would be willing to do maybe three-five hours a week volunteering).

    It’s worth mentioning that I do have a lot of relevant work experience to this field already, so I don’t necessarily need something to add to my CV or another reference. But it would be nice. Also I’m in a very high-paying field where unpaid internships are fairly unusual.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, holy hell, no. “Bringing you on part-time” is not “we have volunteer openings.” This was slimy.

      I wouldn’t volunteer for them at all at this point; I’d be too wary of moving goalposts.

      1. fposte*

        BTW, if this was part of the question: “I’ve enjoyed learning more about possibilities, but I can’t take on unpaid commitments right now. If you have a paid opening in future, I’d love to know about it.”

    2. Stormy*

      I’d decline, explaining that it was a misunderstanding and you’re looking for paid work. You don’t owe them anything, and the way you’ve described it sounds like a bait and switch.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Also, I wouldn’t explain anything other than “Sorry, I am looking for paid work only.” You don’t owe them any details about your course load or need for money when you turn down this opportunity.

        Volunteer work “until something changes”? Hint: it will never change if you’re willing to do their work for free.

    3. Alice*

      Very sketchy. If you want to volunteer, find somewhere that communicates instead of surprising you with the fact that “part-time” means “volunteer” in their world.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      That’s bullshit. He should have told you UP FRONT it was volunteer. And he wants more hours than you can reasonably do? And you already have experience? All good reasons to decline. fposte’s script is good.

    5. ..Kat..*

      So, they want you to work for free part time until you are available to work for free full time?

  137. De Minimis*

    We had our first round of layoffs yesterday. Depressing. Since management has been so transparent, so everything was announced and has been public for the last few months. I’m hopeful that everyone finds a new position. The next group will be laid off in a couple of months.

    I will be laid off myself in a year’s time, but of course I’m really hoping to find another job by then, possibly even within the next couple of months.

  138. fundraiserfran*

    Does anyone else have unreasonably strong feelings of imposter syndrome on a regular basis? How do you combat it?

    1. Temperance*

      Yes! I do corny affirmations that remind me that I am a badass, and I totally (privately) do the Wonder Woman pose. (You might see this advice as the Superman pose, but, IMO, Wonder Woman > Superman!)

      I also pretend that I”m acting like a competent person would act.

    2. NaoNao*

      I keep a “kudos” email file and actually printed out my best/fave kudos emails and put them on my cube wall! I also periodically update my resume with new/updated accomplishments and occasionally write a specialized resume (technical, customer service focused, sales focused) to get ready for any dream jobs that come around, and that helps me see my varied accomplishments in a new light.
      Also weirdly sometimes a job hunt helps, because it shows me what the market is looking for and how/if I stack up and to what degree. It shows me where I’m missing key skills and experience and that way the worry is *focused*. It’s not “I’m terrible and a loser” it’s more “I see I need front end development and U/X skills. Okay, how do I get those.”
      So even if you’re not looking, maybe checking out job postings in your field to see what the market is like.
      Facts always help. Don’t get spun up on ideas or assumptions.
      If you check job boards and everyone with your job description is way out there ahead of you, you know what you gotta do!

      Also: keep printed copies of your performance reviews, and if you have this kind of job, keep a digital or printed portfolio. Helps a lot to SEE your work.

    3. Weyrwoman*

      I really love the idea of star jars – think pickle jars that you fill with little origami stars. You could put a star in every time someone comments positively about your work, even if it wasn’t in writing.

  139. It's bananas*

    Any advice on how to handle being in an office where everyone knows everyone else from being at other branch offices or those who are older/have been there for a long time? I’m new (4 months) and feel awkward and out of place. There are some nice people to chat with, but I still feel like they don’t trust me/are only talking to me to be polite. Otherwise they have their group of friends to eat lunch with/socialize with. I’m shy by nature, but am tired of feeling like this. I’m trying to be as friendly as I can be, but don’t want it to feel fake or forced. Any advice?

    1. Havarti*

      Do you want to socialize and have lunch with these folks or do you just want to feel like they trust you? Either way, it’ll take time. I’d say keep being friendly without faking or forcing it. 4 months isn’t very long even if it feels like it is. Maybe they have similar interests you can bond over? How’s your work otherwise? Do you like it? Are you good at it? (You don’t need to answer – just think about it.) If yes, then likely the social part will come with time as you settle in. But if they’re older than you or have completely different interests, you may never connect completely with them. And some people will never warm up to you no matter how friendly you are or how long you’ve been there.

    2. Senior Wrangler*

      This is really hard. I’ve been in the same spot. I’m a committed introvert and a young one in an office filled with old-timers. The unfortunate best answer is that you just have to give them time. Sometimes you need to give them lots of time to get to know you and to become enmeshed in their work culture, their trust, and their routines. Sometimes this can take years. Or even longer.

      However, there are few things you can do to help speed things along. You may already know all this, but I’ve personally found it speeds things up. People love to talk about themselves and their special interests. When you are chatting with people, make it a point to gradually find out what their hobbies are or what kinds of movies they like. Ask for recommendations for new restaurants to try or books to read or tv shows to watch. Follow up with them later. This is a great tactic if you’re shy because once you get somebody going, you just have to listen. And people love a good listener.

      Send a quiet e-mail to somebody who seems nice and ask them to go to lunch with you on a certain date. Don’t be wishy-washy and say, “wanna have lunch sometime?” Say something like, “Hey! I’ve been wanting to try ***** for lunch. Would you be up for it Wednesday?” If you get declined, say “No worries!” and send another e-mail to somebody else.

      Above all, please just try to be very patient and relax and be yourself. You won’t be fake or forced, and they’ll get to know the real you.

  140. Anathema Device*

    I’m a college student who is graduating this spring, and right now, I’m not sure what I want to do with my life—or, to be more accurate I’m trying to decide between two options that both sound good but are somewhat mutually exclusive. Both of these options involve grad school, which I’m not going to this year, so I’m looking for what to do in the interim. I majored in Middle East Studies and studied Arabic for two years in college and, regardless of which choice I use, I want to to able to improve my Arabic skills and use them on the job. So I have been thinking about trying to get a job teaching English in a Middle Eastern country, and would really appreciate any input/advice on whether this is a good idea.

    I studied abroad in this country for a semester last year and really loved it, so I’d definitely like the opportunity to go back. But there are some things I have reservations about. I’d mainly be teaching because I want to have an opportunity to practice my Arabic and learn more about the country. But there’s a part of me that feels a teacher should be teaching because they truly love teaching, and want to help kids learn and grow as a career. I like kids, in a mostly abstract sense, and I’d obviously do my best to teach them well. But while I think I’d enjoy teaching, it’s definitely not my passion. I also don’t want to be that person who goes “I’m a native English speaker—of course I’ll be fantastic at teaching it!” I’m really good at writing and reading English, but it’s mostly on an intuitive level—I know a sentence is wrong because it “sounds wrong,” not because I can pick out the grammatical inaccuracies.

    I know there’s a Fulbright offered for English teaching in this country, and I know some private schools hire foreign English teachers. I’d really love to hear any opinions you guys have about this—I’m definitely not committed to anything, so feel free to tell me if I’m way off base!

    1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      But there’s a part of me that feels a teacher should be teaching because they truly love teaching, and want to help kids learn and grow as a career.

      Some do. But for others it’s just a job. And that’s, well, not ideal, but it happens. And you’re not a bad person if you decide to go teach without it being your One True Passion. You just do your best. Sometimes it’ll be enough, other times it might not be.

      You’re right that being a native speaker of a language is not the same as being able to teach it. Take a look at some “how to teach a language” books and websites (I don’t know of any offhand, sorry, since my teaching days are done) and reflect on what it might be like to put those into practice. See if you find them at all interesting and whether they seem like things you might be able to put into practice.

      Also, are you a planner? It will help you a lot if you are. I’m not at all, and lesson planning is why I quit. I just don’t think that way, and you really do need to be prepared to teach, although some schools are pretty strict about wanting their teachers to be doing the exact same thing at the exact same time. (Put me in a situation where I have to improvise, though, and I’m great–my best teaching moments were when something totally unplanned happened and I could, guilt-free, throw away my lesson plan and focus on these unexpected student needs.)

      I’m not familiar with the Fulbright, but take a look at their website and see if they list alumni of the program you can contact to get more information about their experiences. I would be careful what you say to them, though, about teaching not being your passion if you do this. It might get back to someone you don’t want it to get back to within the Fulbright organization.

      You can also look into teaching adults, although that can be really hard when you’re young. I taught adult ESL when I was 24-25 (but still looked like a high schooler), and wow was it awkward teaching people old enough to be my parents/grandparents. Not so much because I’d been raised to respect my elders (which I hadn’t been), but I think it was difficult for some of them, who had grown up in a culture where elders are more respected. (And then there was the time when one of my students asked me out. *sigh*) (I said no, obviously.)

      1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

        Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I basically wrote a novel. Also just wanted to add a recommendation for Dave’s ESL Cafe: http://eslcafe.com/ for more info about teaching ESL.

        Also check out the various TEFL subreddits, although be warned that they are VERY cynical over there.

      2. Mephyle*

        Also country-specific groups and pages for EFL teachers in different countries and regions on Facebook. In both this field and others, I see that a lot of the interaction and knowledge sharing that used to take place in forums has moved to Facebook groups.

    2. Justin*

      Niot sure of your financial situation, but I taught overseas after college, and I took a week to get some experience with lesson planning and classroom management. Didn’t cost that much. Something like that will help you transition.

    3. Forking Great Username*

      As a newbie to the teaching world, I feel the need to warn you that it may mean much longer hours than you’re wanting to work. Granted, I’ve never taught overseas, only in the US, but I’ve been told wanting the first year of teaching is survival mode, and that turned out to be far more true than I had hoped. The school day may end at 3, but add on time for grading papers, lesson planning, making copies, organization stuff, etc., and I have absolutely no social life. I’m hoping that changes with experience, but many new teachers have terrible work/life balance.

  141. Changeling*

    I need help with a script

    For background, most of my coworkers are conservative, but a few are Uber religious conservative Republican right wing. I generally avoid religious, political talk at work because I am not. But these things become “current events” topics and are harder to avoid.
    One of the more conservative co-workers has taken to commenting on how I’m “misguided but she loves me anyway”, and that she likes to see how I think, because it’s amusing. About a week ago she posted a comment on Facebook that she feels sorry for my husband, for having to live with me, since I am so “misguided”. She has also repeated this a couple times since at work.
    I mentioned to my supervisor that I didn’t want to work with her, for awhile, since I didn’t think I would be able to maintain my cool. She agreed, but told me I had to tell my manager about this. I did and he wants me to sit down with coworker and discuss this.

    I’m at a loss for actually words other than rude ones. Help?

    1. Little Twelvetoes*

      I am so sorry you are going through this. I don’t think I have any useful scripts, because I would be absolutely enraged at her comments about being sorry for my husband (no matter what her political stance is, this is atrocious). But I would highly recommend the unfriending on Facebook.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        Second the unfriending. And I’d use a script at work, repeated verbatim, whether her comments are directed at you or just made in your hearing–something like “Please stop saying things like that.” The repetition really helps, especially in how your interactions are perceived from the outside.

    2. Just Peachy*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. This is why politics have NO place in the workplace!

      I have a couple coworkers who frequently debate over politics, and it drives me nuts (coming from both sides). It’s completely out of line for anyone (on either side of the political spectrum) to tell anyone else how they should think/feel. It’s a personal topic, not a professional one.

      Aside from it being unprofessional, it’s difficult for me as a bystander not to judge someone differently based on their political views (which I really shouldn’t even have knowledge on.)

      1. PoniezRUs*

        I am going through something similar. I am Latina. My coworker sounds like yours. Coworker said some stuff last week that wasthe last straw. I actually cried to sleep one night while talking to my husband because what she said was dehumanizing and attempted to invalidate my life experiences as a Latina. Well, this week I told my boss about it and he was stunned about what she said. He suggested I go to HR about it and eventually I got the courage to do it.
        I do not think this woman is a horrible person but I do not want to work closely with her. Telling HR and my boss was relieving and they will talk to her about keeping her Title 7 violating opinions to herself. I feel like someone knows and has my back. Now I am nothing but cordial to my coworker and keep the conversations short because I do not want to veer into her monologues about her opposite views.

        What this has taught me about handling this situation:
        1. Not every opinion needs to be expressed
        2. If it is veering towards Title 7 territory – Change the topic
        3. Be brief, be polite
        4. If you tell your boss, be matter of fact. Write notes before hand to help keep the conversation on track

        For reference, here is Title 7
        https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/titlevii.cfm

        Even though the rest of my coworkers are cool and we often talk about differences in culture, our backgrounds, etc., I do not want to be part of a situation that can create the potential for negative language to arise.

        GOOD LUCK!!

    3. fposte*

      Oh, I really don’t like that they put this on you rather than telling her to knock it off, but it’s what you’ve got. Make it about what you do want rather than what you don’t. “I want us to work together respectfully, and that includes treating our private views respectfully. I try and hope I succeed in doing this, but it makes that respect harder when people bring my views into workplace discussions and treat me dismissively. Could we just leave references to personal views out of our communication in future?”

      1. Reba*

        Ugh ugh ugh I agree with fposte’s very high-road approach.

        Also block this lady on all internet things.

      2. Changeling*

        Thanks, that works better than anything I could come up with.
        It’s been put on me, because the initial comment was “outside of work” and I am in a leadership role, so I need to step up my responsibility

        1. Little Twelvetoes*

          The original comment may have been outside work, but it sounds like she has brought it to work since then. Anyway, I like fposte’s script.

    4. Pollygrammer*

      Ughhh. I’d much rather have a coworker who behaved professionally than one who “loves me.” If you have a discussion, I think you should keep it to a simple “these comments need to stop.”

    5. Sally*

      Eesh, good luck! She’s being profoundly rude and condescending, so I wish you all the equanimity in the world in facing her.

    6. Bagpuss*

      If you have to speak to her, then maybe something along the lines of “Making comments that I am ‘misguided’, that you find my thoughts amusing or that you feel sorry for my husband are unprofessional and inappropriate. It is not necessary that you and I share the same views but it is important that we treat each other with respect. Can you do that?”

        1. Little Twelvetoes*

          Or “My husband is delighted to be living with me. It’s so odd that you would suggest otherwise.”

          1. Changeling*

            I like these last 2, my husband did join in the fb comments to defend me, and our relationship. But I was mostly flabbergasted that she is bringing up our marriage, and more than once, in a “joking” manner that she is surprised that he puts up with me

    7. Engineer Girl*

      The issue is a lack of respect.
      She uses the term “misguided”. That’s a value judgement that she is right and you are wrong. A professional would word it as “holding different viewpoints.”
      The comment that she feels sorry for your husband is a flat out personal attack and is highly inappropriate. Especially since she did It publicly on Facebook. Unfriend her so she can’t see into your life. Update your privacy settings to friends only.
      I’d say this “you state you love me but you publicly put me down and also tell me that I’m misguided in my thinking. That is very patronizing.” “I want these type of comments to stop immediately.”
      “I expect professionalism from my coworkers”

  142. My Cat Posted This For Me, MA*

    Hi all— are there any other seasonal affective disorder sufferers out there who are really struggling with work right now? January is the worst month for me and then things start to improve. This is my fifth winter since being diagnosed, and my second year on antidepressants, which made a massive difference. But I realized in late January that I was having breakthrough symptoms that were affecting my work, especially in areas like procrastination, avoidance and a general feeling of hopelessness (Carb cravings are absolutely through the roof but that doesn’t really affect work, I just keep a steady stream of chocolates at my side and hope for the best weight wise when this is over).

    It doesn’t help that I am really starting to burn out at my job after an extended period of an unmeetable workload. I’m home sick today with a cold and can’t stop thinking about how much I wish I could just not go back to work ever again. I have one particular very large project that I am now realizing I am completely stuck on. All my tricks for getting myself going have not been working. Of course this drives more anxiety and procrastination and avoidance. Just wondering if I’m the only person having a rough time right now. It’s been years since I felt this bad and I feel kind of blindsided, ashamed and embarrassed.

    1. NaoNao*

      Don’t have any advice but feel you so hard. “Bottomless pit” hunger, a feeling of “blah” and “who cares” and a struggle to even care….so been there, am so there right now.
      My town gets a fair amount of sun and has relatively mild winters but this winter has been cloudy and the wind has been very sharp and unpleasant. It’s “biting cold” and blah.
      My tricks are treats, heh.
      I have to motivate myself with treats. I got a new hair cut, I got a couple sharp work-only pieces of clothing, instead of public transpo I budgeted for a Lyft in the AM, then the bus home, and so on.

    2. Kramerica Industries*

      I’m a female and have started wearing funky socks with my loafers and dresses. There’s something refreshing to me about walking around in an office where everyone is black and grey, then there’s my red socks with gold polka dots.

    3. Mburnham*

      Maybe consider putting more light in your office, if you haven’t already? I find it really helps me in the winter to work in an environment with lots of light. You can try different color temperature lamps, too. Also, talk to your manager about it and try to let go of the shame.

  143. Just Ugh*

    Office question necessitated by the past two hours of misery: What are some ways to deal with sudden, acute sickness at work? I brought breakfast to work, probably ate some bad yogurt, and have been sitting very, very still at my desk while trying to let the nausea pass. The worst has come and gone, thank goodness, but an hour ago, I desperately wished I could take a cab and go home to lay down. I’m new to office culture and I’ve never had to contemplate excusing myself from work, especially so early in the day, so I’m wondering how others would handle this? Would you go home at all? Is there value in waiting something like nausea out for a couple hours before making the call? I know that going home for sickness isn’t great, so I’m sure my boss wouldn’t be ecstatic if I did, but is that a thing bosses understand sometimes happens? Or is there an expectation that, since I’m here, I may as well work around this light bout of food poisoning?

    (And just to say, my workplace isn’t mean about time off or sick days. If I got up the nerve to talk to her, I know my boss would be sympathetic. I’m just not sure what the expectations are around actually leaving work early for sickness, and how you talk to your boss about that.)

    1. Colette*

      Anywhere I’ve worked, it would be fine and expected to go home if you were at work and got sick (or discovered you were sicker than you thought).

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Generally speaking, the barometer I use (absent something like needing to sprint for the restroom repeatedly) is how much confidence I have in the work that I’ll be producing. If I’m still confident I can be accurate, even if slow, I’ll stay; if I’m pretty sure that anything I try to do is going to be a complete mess, I go home.

      For what it’s worth, any reasonable boss is going to accept that you need to go home if you tell them you need to; in my experience, most of them don’t want details.

    3. Little Twelvetoes*

      This is a thing that sometimes happens. You can leave work and go home. It is better than staying at work and feeling miserable.
      “Boss, I am horribly sick and/or feeling terrible and I am going to go home for the rest of the day.”

    4. anon24*

      I think it’s perfectly ok to go to your boss and tell her that you ate something for breakfast that didn’t agree with you and would like to go home and sleep it off. Give as many/few details as you feel comfortable.

      One job I worked at it was very strongly discouraged to call out sick. In 8 years I could probably count my call out times on one hand. It was normal to work very very sick. Even in that job though I could go home if I needed to. I remember when I got H1N1. I went to work in the morning and felt fine, happy and energetic. That thing hit me like a brick wall, in about 15 minutes I went from feeling great to curled up in a chair shivering uncontrollably. Told my boss “you’re never going to believe me but I think I just got the flu”. And even in that “do not take off work ever ever ever” environment I was allowed to go straight home.

      Now I don’t care so much. I’m an adult. If I need to go home, I’m going home.

    5. fposte*

      It’d be pretty unusual for an office to expect you to “work around” food poisoning, and trying to wait out nausea gives you too great a risk of waiting barfing in instead. If you tend toward a delicate tummy and get nauseated pretty easily, that’s another matter, but if this is an unusual out of the blue I-really-am-wondering-how-this-food-is-coming-out situation, absolutely go home ASAP.

    6. Starley*

      As someone’s boss, I would vastly prefer my team member go home than have them vomiting at work! Puking is bad enough, people should be free to go do it in the comfort of their own homes, at least. It happens. It would be totally fine to either pop your head in or send a quick IM/e-mail/phone call and let her know you’re not feeling well and heading home for the day. If it’s any consolation I’ve had to do this myself a few times when the coffee shop I hit up on the way to work didn’t get my order right and gave me regular milk (I’m very, very, very lactose intolerant and don’t go to that coffee shop anymore). Don’t sweat it next time and I hope you feel better!

    7. Kramerica Industries*

      I’ve done it. I’ve even said to my boss that I would be at my desk waiting for the nausea to pass so I can make it back home on public transit, but to essentially consider me gone and sick.

      Unless your boss is absolutely crazy, the majority of people understand that there’s nothing fun about trying to trudge through being sick.

    8. Lynca*

      I get pretty bad migraines and sometimes they strike mid day or it gets worse over time. My bosses have always understood.

    9. strawberries and raspberries*

      I feel your pain, as I just ate way too much penne alla vodka from a place that I was already lukewarm about and now I am contemplating taking ipecac. I have also gone home for migraines and cramps. I would suggest waiting it out for a little bit to see if it passes, but if it doesn’t and it’s really interfering with your work or you’re in a lot of pain (as opposed to just a little uncomfortable), it’s totally reasonable to request to go home. Most normal workplaces don’t want you in the office if you’re 1) contagious, 2) excreting bodily fluids, or 3) not being productive. All you have to say if you decide to go home is, “Hey, I ate something that didn’t agree with me earlier and I’m really feeling unwell. Could I please take the rest of the day off?” No further explanation necessary.

  144. Chronically (Ch)ill*

    I have a question about sick time and chronic illness!

    I deal with several chronic illnesses, the combo of which will out me, so I’m not going to go into detail. Some of these symptoms include: migraines, nausea, joint pain, and depression/anxiety. And I recently (eight months ago) started a new full-time job, my first one – if it’s relevant, I’m non-exempt. It’s been really great; my coworkers are fun, boss is good, the work itself is invigorating. The problem is that my body is not dealing with the stress of working 40 hours a week very well. I have taken sick time a couple of times a month, nearly every month, since I started working here, and occasionally have to take longer lunches and then work late to fit in doctors’ appointments (with my boss’s permission). I feel like this is probably too much, especially for someone as new as I am. (Is it?)

    So my question is – do I explain to my boss what’s going on? I am extremely worried that telling him will A) be TMI and B) make him think of me differently. But on the other hand, I don’t want him to think I’m shirking work or that I’m not calling out for a good reason. How have other people dealt with this?

    1. Just Peachy*

      I think you should tell your boss (and maybe even your coworkers if you can do it in a way without it being TMI). Your reasons for taking the time off are obviously valid. However, I know if I had a coworker gone 2-3 times a month taking sick time, I would be annoyed and assume they were faking it to get out of work (rightly or wrongly). It’s worth bringing it up to maintain good relationships with those you work with, since you are taking much more time off than the “norm”.

      1. Chronically (Ch)ill*

        Thank you! I have explained the migraine thing to them, but I’ve hesitated about going, “and here’s a list of my other five chronic health problems!” How do you suggest bringing it up to my boss? Should I wait until the next time I have to take sick time, or should I just go in there and say, “Hey, I have something to discuss about my use of sick time”?

        1. WG*

          I don’t think you need to go into details about the specific conditions. Just something general about having several chronic conditions that sometimes necessitate a few sick days each month. If appropriate to your job, maybe ask your boss or strategize with your coworkers about ways that the impact of your absences could be minimized. Is there documentation you can keep updated to help your coworkers when you’re out? Are there things you can keep ahead on so there aren’t delays or lags when you’re out?

          1. Chronically (Ch)ill*

            This is great food for thought! I am (luckily?) in a role where I’m not involved in major projects or really anything that would derail a workday – it’s very entry-level – but I could definitely do more that would give my coworkers better insight into what I’m working on daily so they can be aware if there are tasks that can’t wait. I think I’ll bring this entire thing up with my boss framing it like you just did – as in “I have this issue and these potential solutions, what do you think?” instead of just info-dumping the facts on him. Thanks!

  145. Geek Girl*

    I had a phone interview with Hiring Manager a couple weeks ago that went really well, and I’m really excited about the job possibility. A couple days ago I had a second phone interview with Director (Hiring Manager’s boss) who is in the corporate office out of state. Director was 25 minutes late to phone call due to prior mtg running late. Because we started the call late, he did not get a chance to show me the software that is a major component of the job. So we scheduled a secondary interview for this morning to show me the software. However this morning he said he had to reschedule for next week…

    On our call, Director seemed concerned that he wanted to be able to show me the software so I have a better idea of what the position entails. I have no problem with taking the time to see the software, but I’m concerned that since he seems to be a very busy guy (said most of his days are planned down to the minute), this might really delay the process if we wait to get this scheduled.

    Is it okay to let him and/or the Hiring Manager know that I am ok with skipping this step? I’m happy to just go forward and get an in-person interview scheduled with Hiring Manager. Or would that be too presumptuous of me to assume they even want to take the next step with an in-person interview?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I wouldn’t advise it. It sounds important to the director to show you the software, and it’s always good to get more data about the job itself to know if it’s a good fit for you. I also think it would be presumptuous to assume 1) they are going to move you forward 2) that the software demo can be skipped. It’s annoying to keep rescheduling, but I would just bear it!

  146. Expecting*

    Great news, I’m 5 weeks pregnant. I have only told my husband and the receptionist at the doctors office. But I just finished my first 90 days last month. So my health insurance is effective, and I’m not having any obvious symptoms yet, and I don’t work with chemicals. So I can get away without telling my boss for a little while.
    But I don’t know how and when I should tell my boss since I’m so new. My due date is exactly 2 weeks before I have my full year in, so I don’t know if I qualify for fmla for my maternity leave. I work for a large company so I know I’ll get maternity leave. But I just don’t know how to navigate this. Any help would help me.

    1. Little Twelvetoes*

      I’d wait another month or two, then inform my direct supervisor. They should be able to help you navigate the rest.

      P.S. Congratulations!

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I would probably wait to tell until around week 8-9, some people wait as long as 12 weeks since that is when the risk of miscarriage drops significantly. As for the FMLA, just start talking with your HR about it. They may be able to start you a little early, or you might be 2 weeks late, or the due date is adjusted along the way, etc. Your best approach is to assume they will work with you to do what’s best, and ask a lot of questions. Congratulations and good luck!

    3. fposte*

      The federal law doesn’t cover you if you’re out two weeks before a year is up, but if your company has a maternity leave policy that should spell out what you’re eligible for (and it might be worth checking with your state laws as well). As noted above, HR should be able to walk you through it, and there’s plenty of time if you want to wait until twelve weeks or even longer.

      1. Expecting*

        Just read the employee handbook. Their maternity leave policy is just fmla. The only thing I can hope for is saving my pto and sick which will be six days and hope they can give me my week vacation which I get during my year anniversary 1 week early. And Pray I don’t need any time off for the next 9 months. Or just ignore that I don’t qualify for fmla and let me take it anyway. I pray that I won’t be 2 weeks late because that sounds miserable. I think I’ll have to speak with corporate hr.

        1. fposte*

          Ugh. I’m sorry. It would probably have turned up in the handbook if it were relevant, but do check your state just in case as well.

          Remember that FMLA is *unpaid* leave; they may well be open to giving you unpaid leave on top of your paid stuff even if you don’t qualify for FMLA yet. So I’d consider proposing that.

          1. Expecting*

            I think they would be because they spent so much time training me in the first place it would be easier to give me the unpaid leave than to find my replacement.

            1. fposte*

              If you look through AAM columns, you can see it’s really not uncommon for employers to deal well with first-year pregnancies. One advantage to deciding not to tell for a little bit is that it gives you time to think about what you want, not just what you think you can eke out without annoying anybody. Presuming a decent manager, it’s okay for the decision about how much time you can take off to be a conversation between the two of you.

    4. Teal Green*

      Congratulations! If you’re not having any obvious symptoms yet, wait a little while. Tell your direct supervisor around 10-12 weeks (may have to be earlier if symptoms start affecting your work). FMLA doesn’t officially kick in until you’ve been there a year, but that doesn’t stop your company from offering you equivalent benefits earlier than that. Just that they don’t legally *have* to do FMLA. Talk to HR after you talk to your supervisor so you can find out what maternity leave will be available to you, how long, whether it’s paid or not and how (out of your PTO, short-term disability, separate paid mat. leave, or some combination).

  147. Grossed out*

    I keep, or kept, 2 different lip balms on my desk. Yesterday, I noticed one was worn down a bit more than I expected, but didn’t think anything of it. This morning, I uncapped the other one, started to apply it, and it was bumpy. Someone carved into the top with what looked like fingernails. EWWWWWWW! There’s no way it could have been the cap, I checked. So gross. I tossed both of them. But now I’m wondering what else has been contaminated on my desk? I’ve scrubbed my water bottle and travel mug. I guess I need to toss my eye drops, too. And my open jar of instant espresso.

    But why? Why would you do that?

    2. Michelle*

      Because some people are nasty and have no problem taking stuff they want/need, even if it doesn’t belong to them!

      I keep Nu Skin liquid bandage at my desk, for paper cuts or scrapes where a regular bandage just won’t fit/stick. One day my boss said he couldn’t keep a band aid on his knuckle. I showed him the bottle and said “get some of this”. He proceeded to take the bottle out of my hand, coat his wound and handed the bottle back. I just tossed it after he left. I keep everything locked up now. If you can’t lock your desk drawer, maybe you could get a small locking box to keep in your drawer. We shouldn’t have to lock up our stuff, but I’d rather take a few extra seconds of my day to lock/unlock my drawer than risk getting sick from nasty people who can’t keep their hands off my stuff.

    3. Michelle*

      My boss once used my Nu Skin liquid bandage on his wound* (he couldn’t get a band aid to stay on) and then gave it back to me. I tossed it and now keep all my stuff locked up.

      * I showed him the bottle when he complained he couldn’t get a band aid to stick and said you should buy a bottle of this. He just took it out of my hand and used it!

      1. Michelle*

        Sorry for the double post. My first comment didn’t show up for a few minutes and I thought it got lost in filters or something.

    4. Curious Cat*

      W. T. F. Ewww I just had a little freak out at my desk over the thought of that. I’m so sorry someone did that, it’s actually repulsive. I’ve been annoyed that things on my desk keep getting shifted around, but yikes, nothing compares to that.

      1. Grossed out*

        The only thing I can think of is that they were both corporate giveaways, and maybe they thought they were decorative, and I didn’t actually use them? Still gross, though. I’d rather they had just vanished one day.

  148. Sleepy at Work*

    I just started a new job two weeks ago, and I love everything about it! It’s an amazing team, a great move in my career path, and has so many opportunities to learn. I don’t have any regrets about the job switch, but am having one problem I would love people’s help on. My previous work day was from 5am to 2pm and I spent all day on my feet training, managing, and just generally interacting with people. My new day is much more of a 9am to 5 pm and mostly spent in a quiet cubicle alone. I’m having trouble adjusting! My body is still used to getting up early and I start yawning right around 2. I can’t get used to the quiet cubicle, and what’s worse is due to space I am on a different floor than my team, so I don’t know or work with anyone around me. I’m sure as time goes on I will grow accustomed to the team and make cube friends, but do folks have any advice for how to survive till then, or how to speed up the process?

    1. Little Twelvetoes*

      Plan for a break around 2pm to take a quick walk. Then maybe put on some tunes if you can. I am always more productive if I can dance while working. Plan to also find a need to connect with someone on your team in the afternoon, so you have an excuse to take a walk upstairs and talk to someone. (For example, if you have a question about something, try to hold it until the afternoon, if possible.)

    2. Overeducated*

      Get up and move around, even just a walk up and down the hall a couple times an hour in the afternoon. Tea. Sugar. That’s what gets me through the mid-afternoon slump.

      (I cringe saying that because the book Sweetness and Power argues that tea and sugar fueled the urbanization and industrialization of England…when your advice on getting through the workday is “follow the strategy of malnourished, poverty stricken child and adult factory workers in the 1700s,” well, it just makes you feel very proletarian. But at least child labor is illegal today, I’m not malnourished, and I get to have my tea *during* the workday instead of after a 12 hour shift.)

    3. Bagpuss*

      do you get a lunch break? A brisk walk (or run up and down the stairs) may help get through that 2 p.m. dip.

      I’ve never been very good at the getting to know people thing but little things like introducing yourself to the people in the next cube, asking for advice about stuff like the best local coffee / sandwich shop could help break the ice.

  149. Bluebell*

    Late today but I do have a question. I’m pretty sure one of my team members is pregnant. It’s still early days though and I would never directly ask her. I don’t want to give her any special treatment, but any advice on if there’s any way to make the path smoother for her? In a perfect world I’d prefer she tell me earlier than later as we are a team of less than 10. Thanks commenters!

    1. Little Twelvetoes*

      Wait to make any acknowledgement until she tells you. And when she does, don’t tell her that you already knew, because that can be annoying to many people. Just tell her “Congratulations” and then let her know that you are willing to help her make her maternity leave go smoothly.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’d say just follow her cues and don’t give her a hard time if she needs to come in late/leave early for a myriad of reasons (which could be doctor’s appointments that she doesn’t want you know about) or if she’s away from her desk a lot or whatever.

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      In the absence of her telling you anything specific or sharing her news, I think I would just try to shut down any speculative comments from other coworkers. I’m pretty private, and I didn’t share my pregnancy news right away, and I don’t want anyone treating me differently, even to help (unless asked). But it would mean a lot to me if someone shut down others’ comments if they heard them. I didn’t have too many bad experiences, but it was frustrating to hear that some coworkers were speculating about me around the water cooler.

      After I did announce, there were a few men who kept asking me over and OVER if I was going to stay home with the baby. That’s none of their business, and I got pretty blunt with them about telling them to knock it off. One guy kept saying things like, “Well they always say they’re coming back to work, and then they don’t…” So if you hear anything like that as well, please tell them to cut the crap!

      1. Bluebell*

        I’m not mentioning to anyone – also I’ve had widely varying experiences with staff on maternity leave. My guess is that she will continue to do an excellent job. She handles a lot, and very gracefully and competently.

  150. Underconfident*

    Does anyone have any advice for finding your confidence at work again?
    I’m a Trainee Teapot Fixer working in the field so I go to people with broken teapots and fix them. Previously, I was a Teapot Taper. I could patch the teapots but not fully fix them. Since I’ve been working as a trainee fixer, I’ve noticed my confidence is far lower than it was when I was a taper. Things I used to be comfortable with have me second guessing. I know part of the reason why but I’m struggling to overcome it. Noone has raised any concerns with my fixing ability, in fact most people have been nothing but positive. It’s not imposter syndrome because I know I belong in this job and I know I can do it, I’m just struggling to put that knowledge that I’m perfectly capable into practice.

  151. DeColores*

    Thoughts on what you would do if you found out coworkers were bribing/having to bribe another department to prioritize work differently? It doesn’t directly affect my work so I’m not sure if I should just stay out of it. The teapot analysts need the beverage review team to produce information for them. The TA’s apparently have to bribe Beverage Reviewers to get this information and not end up deprioritized to last on the list. Bribes like taking them out for drinks and dinners every week.

    1. Starley*

      This is nuts… do you know if they’re buying these drinks and dinners on the company dime? If they are, I’d lean towards speaking up.

      1. DeColores*

        No it’s out of pocket. One of the TA’s was telling me he really can’t afford to keep doing it but if he doesn’t then the information he needs will get done last by the Beverage Reviewers. Then the TA will be the one criticized for not getting his work done even though he has to have the BR info to complete it and the BR’s were the ones causing the delay.

        1. Lynca*

          I’d speak up.

          This is pretty unethical but the underlying problem (of the TAs not getting info timely) needs to get solved too. If they’re extorting one office, who’s to say they’re not doing it to others?

        2. Starley*

          Wow. I’d encourage the other person to stop doing it, and if he can’t get what he needs from that department he needs to kick it up to his boss. This is so unethical.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      What the heck?! This needs to be escalated to your manager so they can escalate to the other department’s manager. When another team is refusing to play well with yours unless you BRIBE THEM WITH YOUR OWN MONEY(?!?!) you’ve entered management needs to know yesterday territory. This is completely unreasonable behavior.

      Part of your manager’s job is making sure your team is getting what you need to do your job.

  152. AnitaJ*

    Attempting to move away from the binary in language. Finding it difficult to secure appropriate swap-outs for ‘ladies’, ‘gentleman’, ‘ma’am’, ‘sir’, etc. (‘All’ has worked well.) In my personal life, things such as ‘everybody’, ‘folks’, ‘gang’, etc. do well. But that’s just too casual for my office. Anyone have good ideas?

    2. extra anon today*

      Folks and everyone seem formal enough to me. What about “colleagues” or “everyone in attendance”? Obama used folks all the time and it never sounded casual.

    3. Lumen*

      I think ‘everyone’ rather than ‘everybody’ is a tad bit more formal and could work. And thank you for thinking about this – I work in a group of all women, and I identify as a woman, and yet I still rankle a bit when my supervisor addresses us as ‘ladies’. For some reason it makes me want to go “We’re not a sewing circle!”

      But I’m a crank, so. *shrug*

    4. Curious Cat*

      Been trying to do the same thing every time I catch myself saying “hey guys.”
      Depending on where you’re from, “y’all” has worked nicely for me as well as “everyone” (which I agree with the others is not too casual)

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My emails to groups of clients either start with, “Hi all,” or, “Attached is…” Not too casual, unless you work in a very buttoned up industry. “Team,” or “Hi, Team,” also works.

  153. cactus lady*

    Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for you advice in the past few open threads about navigating my job offer and leaving my current job! Giving my notice and negotiating time off ended up being a breeze.

    Just wanted to share the weirdest thing that has been happening since it was announced that I am leaving: I’ve learned that no one actually knows what I do. My job description (and what I was hired to do) is, say, a teapot designer. I work with other teapot designers and engineers and they ALL seem to think I’m an admin assistant. They have made comments to me about how much they will miss having me as an assistant/receptionist – Which I am not. At all. None of them realized that we are all a peer group. One of them made a comment when I told him about my new position that he was surprised anyone would hire me for anything except a receptionist. I was rather insulted, but it explains why they haven’t treated me like a peer and have sometimes made patronizing comments to me. And yes, I am the only woman in the group.

    So I am very excited to be leaving this place! Happy Friday everyone!

      1. cactus lady*

        I know Allison says you shouldn’t get senioritis during your notice period. but after all this I’m struggling hard with it.

  154. extra anon today*

    I am in Minneapolis, working downtown. My commute this week has been absolute hell. My boss scheduled a meeting offsite for this afternoon and I am not looking forward to being stuck in traffic with her for 2 hours while we try to get past the stadium to our destination.

  155. Littlelionlass*

    Hey there! (I think I may have asked Alison something similar a few months ago, but I am pretty sure I wrote it up and sent it while tipsy…..so I’m going to ask here a little more coherently)

    Long time reader, first time comment-er. I have a bit of a weird situation and I’m at the point where I need some outside in-put. Last year, I transferred from my company’s east coast headquarters to our smaller western satellite office. And by smaller I mean, there was maybe 7 other people out here when I moved (it has now grown to 10, with 2 more hires coming on in a few months). There was only one other person in my department out here at that time, let’s call her Jane.

    Jane has been with the company for 10 years, and is notoriously difficult to work with. She is unable to modulate her emotions well (everything is the End of the World worst), she reads every tone in emails as hostile and offensive (problematic as we are in a remote office and primarily communicate with HQ via email or skype), and is degrading and demeaning when she has to explain concepts.

    Somehow, the powers that be (after my former, wonderful, mentor of a manager quit to take care of an ill family member) put Jane in a managerial position. I was able to deal with Jane’s crappy attitude because it didn’t directly affect me and we were peers. Now, for the past 8 months, Jane has been my manager and it’s not going great. I am the most senior member of her team, so she will often rant/degrade/ridicule the work of the other, newer team members that she is reviewing to me. She is extremely overwhelmed by everything, and often spends a half hour a day sitting on my office floor venting about her position and how “no one trained her how to manage people”, despite her being flown back to HQ with our other remote manager for quarterly, week long management training. She did such a bad job onboarding a new hire in July, that he quit within 2 months and in his exit interview stated she was the sole reason he was leaving. Upper managements response has been to have me do all of the training and onboarding for new hires (which is going great! I’m really loving managing and teaching! just wish they would give me a pay increase or title change!).

    I have talked with our new head of the department back in HQ a few times about my difficulty working with her and asking what I can do on my end to improve things. Between what Jane and other members of our team are telling me, our very young production team is suffering as she is not really managing them. However, the response is “we are aware, and we are taking measures to fix the problem”. I should point out that we are a company that has had a higher than usual attrition rate the last year (mostly over pay- management has recently given everyone a raise across the board to match industry standards and will be giving out merit raises in April to fix this), and I think therefore is hesitant to fire her.

    SO (sorry for the novel other comment-ers), at this point, after talking to the head of my department and trying to set boundaries in person with Jane while not being as aggressive as I would like given the super small nature of our office- what should I do? Should I contact HR and provide them copies of the emails where Jane trash talks every one of our team members? Should I wait it out and hope that managements solution is either firing her or removing her from management? Should I just look for a new job myself? Help!

    1. Littlelionlass*

      Oh no I turned on email alert for comments, not realizing it turns it on for the entire post and not just my thread. How do I turn this off??

    2. Reba*

      Sadly this is likely a case of “your company sucks and isn’t going to change.” They are addressing some of their problems but won’t touch a big, obvious one with a ten-foot pole.

      I have had some success in stopping trashing with a boss (this was a person who was generally emotionally aware, just dealing with a lot) by saying, I don’t like to hear things like this; I don’t think it’s productive and it makes me wonder what you say about me when I’m not here.

      If she says discriminatory/legally problematic things, I think you should share emails. Otherwise, I mean, they know, right? they know already and they aren’t dealing with it.

      1. Littlelionlass*

        True. The emails don’t contain anything illegal. I think there is still some disconnect between our HR and upper management- I guess my hope with going through HR is they will also put some pressure on management to get rid of her/move her to a different position.

        I did have a one on one chat with my grandboss about how valuable I am to the company, so maybe I can job search and hopefully get offers to at least negotiate to a position where I don’t have to report to her…..I don’t even know. Thanks for the help!

  156. Casuan*

    This relates to the “Am I turning in work too quickly?” q&a from AAM’s last post.

    How to respond to a friend who has a high workload that is partially self-induced…?
    My friend (not a colleague) works in a small medical office & she cares more about the practise than its overly frugal owner/practioner does. Jane is the bookkeeper-now-also-receptionist. Her baseline is the job of at least two full-time staff & Jane is getting burnt out.

    My first advice to her is that she should stop caring more about the business than the owner because all he cares about is the bottom line. He gives Jane tasks because she will get them done. Finally Jane is starting to push back & she tells her employer that it might not be for several months. Usually he chuckles because he doesn’t realise that Jane isn’t joking…
    Among other things, I’ve told Jane that she should ask how he wants things prioritised & what doesn’t get done doesn’t get done until he decides to hire more help.

    Thus, the self-induced aspect: some of Jane’s high workload is because it makes her job easier.
    eg: any prep that relates to the patients

    I really do get Jane’s logic on this because I’ve been in that “easier on me” place myself. However, my situation [& ultimate escape] was a very different scenario than Jane’s so I can’t paradigm it too much for her situation.

    Any suggestions on how to counter the “Yes, I’m overworked although it helps me so I need to do it”?

  157. Amy*

    I’ve worked in the financial services field for several years and changed jobs a year ago. I am a good employee and receive good feedback from my direct supervisor. Overall I like my job, but my question is about my relationship with my manager (above my supervisor).

    The manager is nice to me, but she seems uncomfortable when interacting with me. I suspect that it is related to my devout Christian values and lifestyle, as I have discovered that she is married to a woman and I am a strong proponent of marriage being between a man and a woman (but I don’t talk about it at work, but it is on my social media accounts). The manager doesn’t talk about her wife, but she definitely seems more comfortable talking to everyone else in the office and sometimes I feel left out and more than anything I don’t want it to hurt my career opportunities.

    Also, my supervisor’s son is also in a gay relationship and has a child with his partner, which I whole-heartedly disagree with, but I would NEVER say or imply anything about my judgments about these relationships at work. I know how to act professionally and understand the difference between work life and regular life.

    A related issue is that my job would typically include being a Notary Public, but I have said that I am not comfortable with the responsibilities associated with being a notary. The problem is that at one point I agreed to become a notary, but now I don’t want to because the handbook for notaries states that a notary cannot refuse to to perform any notary duty.

    I explained to my supervisor that in my Christian faith only men perform marriages and she contacted the department at the state that oversees notaries and she says that they told her that in my state notaries are allowed to perform marriages, but that if you perform any marriages, then you have to be willing to perform any legal marriage including same-sex marriage – but that’s not what the handbook says about having to perform notarial duties so I am uncomfortable. I am concerned that my not having completed this assignment of becoming a notary hurts me in the eyes of my supervisor and manager and that it will be on my review next month.

    Should I talk to my supervisor or the manager about my concerns? If so, how can I raise my concerns without seeming judgmental about the manager’s marriage / lifestyle and without ruining my relationship with either or both of them? My supervisor and manager seem to discuss everything, so if I only talk to one, the other will definitely know about it and what was said.

    I appreciate suggestions anyone may have. I’d rather not leave this job, but I’m concerned that my personal beliefs will forever leave me as “the other”.

    1. extra anon today*

      These people don’t just disagree with your beliefs, they fully understand that you believe that they are sinners and are going to hell. Wow, can’t imagine why they wouldn’t be overly friendly to you.

      Further, if your beliefs conflict with a duty of the job, you shouldn’t have taken the job. You need to prioritize your beliefs over work, rather than expecting your employer to make an exception for bigoted behavior.

      1. Amy*

        I didn’t know that I’d be asked to be a notary; I wasn’t in my other similar positions and it is a responsibility that can’t legally be required of employees (in my state at least).

        I hadn’t thought about how they are interpreting my beliefs about sin and that is actually really helpful that you pointed that out.

        Should it matter that I’ve never said any of this to anyone at work and they would only know about my beliefs if they had / have looked me up on social media?

        Is this a lost cause? Should I just move on?

        1. Emi.*

          If it’s not an essential job duty, why not ask for a religious exemption (especially since it sounds like you can’t perform any marriages)? I recommend that you continue to not discuss this at work but it doesn’t really make a difference to the question of whether you can be required to become a notary.

        2. KR*

          Just move on, imo, and make sure you are impeccably polite and respectful of these co-workers who are avoiding you. They are just living their life the way that feels right to them, they’re not doing it At you.

        3. Pollygrammer*

          You can’t seem non-judgmental to people who know for a fact that you are judging them,

          Why, inside or outside of work, were any of your beliefs made publicly available? Social media, when there are sensitive topics involved, should be private or unable to be connected to you. There are going to be coworkers, clients, neighbors, etc. finding these things out as long as you have the public information out there. Everyone looks everyone up, it’s just how these things are.

          1. Amy*

            My social media isn’t set to private because I primarily use it for connecting with and for my church people and functions, and to connect with people at peer churches. I don’t use my social media accounts at or for work at all and because I don’t, shouldn’t it be acceptable for me to openly share things on my own time? free speech? Part of my church’s mission is to spread God’s Word and these days social media is a critical part of that.

            1. AnotherAlison*

              Plenty of people have had career crises because of what they shared on “private” social media. You’re free to share what you want, but you are also free to be no longer employed at your employer’s discretion. I’m social media friends with a former high school friend who has far-right Christian views, and I’m often shocked that he is employed based on what he shares on social media.

            2. Alton*

              Beliefs about other people aren’t the same thing as expressing religious affiliation in general, and if you post things that are judgmental toward people you work with, you can’t expect them to just feel okay with it. Religion isn’t a free ticket to express negative opinions about other people.

              Imagine if a man posted about how women should stay home and be submissive to their husbands, and justified this as part of his faith. Would you blame his female work colleagues for thinking that these attitudes apply to them?

              And the problem, too, is that beliefs like these can translate to actual discrimination. Believing that Jesus is the son of God and forgives sins doesn’t directly impact people who believe differently, but beliefs about groups such as women or LGBT people can manifest as unequal treatment (like not performing civil marriage ceremonies for gay couples or not providing career advancement opportunities to women).

            3. Pollygrammer*

              You’re free to share anything you want to, but just because you do it on your own time doesn’t mean it won’t make an impression at work. What you’ve made public is public: everywhere, all the time, to everyone.

              Free speech means you can’t be politically persecuted for what you say. It has absolutely nothing to do with how it impacts peoples’ opinions of you. It doesn’t sound like anyone at your work is angling to have you fired or actively trying to make your life miserable; they’re just (justifiably) uncomfortable around you.

            4. Kuododi*

              1. Many people get caught up with the idea of free speech as a way to license inappropriate behavior either in public or on the internet. “Free Speech” is only a protection from government intrusion into open communication.

              2. As an ordained, clergywoman I have been called upon to officiate many weddings. I have additionally turned down just as many requests to officiate because after consultation with the couple, I truly believed they were not entering into marriage with healthy goals and mindset. I have always referred them to appropriate counseling, clergy support in their area but there is no requirement stating that I must officiate a wedding simply because a couple makes the request. I suspect the same holds for your circumstances as a notary. My DH is also a clergy and a notary due to requirements of his job. Regarding the issue of officiating weddings…his beliefs are the same as mine on this concern. Trust me when I say…the couple’s we have officiated were rarely a traditional early twenties, first love, no other partner’s, bride was a virgin on her wedding night. There was Love, Grace and the presence of the Almighty at each one of those weddings.

            1. Bagpuss*

              Yes, you are. “my supervisor’s son is also in a gay relationship and has a child with his partner, which I whole-heartedly disagree with, but I would NEVER say or imply anything about my judgments about these relationships at work. ”

              You are making a judgment that they, their families and their most important personal relationships are wrong / sinful / inappropriate.

              You may not be advocating that they be punished for those things, but you are judging them, and you admit that you are open about those judgments, albeit on your personal social media and not to their faces or using their names.

              Imagine if you read the social media account of one of your colleagues and it was full of statements declaring that all christians are morally bankrupt, gullible fools. Would you feel friendly towards that person, even if they were polite to you to your face? Or would you feel uncomfortable and limit your interactions with them to what was required of your job?

              You are free to say what you want, or what your understanding of your faith requires, but equally, others are free to decide, based on the views that you express, that you are not someone they want to be friends with, or simply that they don’t feel comfortable relaxing and talking about their families with you because they are ware that you strongly disagree with their right to be a family.

              You mention that you understand the difference between work and personal life, and know how to be professional.

              It read to me that your colleagues do, too. They are professional towards you, but they don’t go further, and involve you in the more casual, friendly interactions which are about personal stuff such as families. Why would they?

              You feel like the ‘other’ and the ‘outsider’ but your views mean that you automatically consider those who are gay to be ‘other’ and outsiders – why would they include you when you won’t include them? And that’s before you even begin to factor in the fact that LGBQT people are still marginalised and discriminated against, and the impact that that embedded experience has on people on a day to day basis.

              In terms of the notary thing, is it usual for notaries in your office to perform marriages? I thought that the reason many US businesses want staff members who are notaries is in relation to being able to notarise documents etc. Unless your business is in the wedding industry it doesn’t sound as though it is likely to come up.

      2. KR*

        Hate to say it, but yeah. If you were really not making your beliefs known at work, these people wouldn’t be uncomfortable with you because they wouldn’t even have reason to know you disagree with their sexuality.
        The thing is, you can believe what you believe and they can believe what they believe. It doesn’t have a place in work at all. No one is asking you to be gay or say you love what sexuality these people are – they’re asking you to perform a function of your job that you’ve been hired to do (of your job includes doing regular marriage ceremonies, otherwise idk why this even matters at work).
        And just a note, if you’re a notary it doesn’t require you to perform marriages and if you’re in financial services I can’t imagine that would require regularly performing marriages. If you don’t want to perform marriages don’t hang your shingle out as a notary/justice of the peace – it will eliminate this whole dilemma. My dad is a justice of the peace/notary and he only does rare marriages for close friends and then uses his certification for work purposes.

    2. sheila_cpa*

      1) If your job requires you to be a notary, and your religious beliefs do not allow you to be a notary, you need to be job-searching yesterday.
      2) I’m queer, and my boss thinks there’s something wrong with queer people, as you do. I do everything in my power to avoid spending time with him and cannot relax personally when we interact because I know what he thinks of people like me (I’m not out to him). It’s not fair of you to expect your supervisor or manager to be comfortable with you when you think there’s something inherently wrong with them and the people they love. That’s the kindest way I know how to say this.

      1. Amy*

        1) I didn’t know that I’d be asked to be a notary. It wasn’t in the job ad and I haven’t be asked to become one in other similar positions. It’s not a “requirement” of the job because my state doesn’t allow employers to require it, but my peers in similar positions (at this employer, but not my prior employers) are notaries.

        2) Thank you for sharing your thoughts – yours and what extra anon today are really helping me to see their perspective. I think I’m starting to understand it and I can’t believe I didn’t before.

        1. Amy*

          I’ve been overwhelmed by just wanting to feel like I am being treated like everyone else. Maybe that has blinded me to how they are feeling or interpreting my faith. I thought that my supervisor would understand because she is Catholic, which is similar-minded to my faith on the subject.

          1. sheila_cpa*

            There are many, many Catholics and Christians who are queer and queer-friendly. I’m Catholic myself.

            Maybe sit a bit with that feeling of wanting to be treated like everyone else, and then look at your manager, or at one of the commenters here, and imagine a situation where we feel like that. I just want *my* boss to treat me like everyone else, right?

          2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

            Amy, my 2 cents. You can believe whatever you choose – that’s your right. You do not have the right to impose your beliefs on anyone else, and if you try, then you’re in the wrong.

            Very low stakes example. Say your religion doesn’t believe in eating pork. Ok. You don’t eat pork. You don’t cook pork in your home. You don’t serve pork. But. If you’re at someone else’s home, and they choose to serve pork, that’s not wrong! They don’t share your belief. You don’t have to the eat the pork, and can avoid cross-contamination if you’re that strict on the no-pork. But that other person did nothing wrong. You shouldn’t scold them, or tell them they messed up, or give them side eye, or think badly of them. Because they have different beliefs than you, and they are perfectly ok in that.

            It goes the other way as well. If your friend’s religion says don’t wear synthetic fabrics, and your’s doesn’t care, friend isn’t wrong. You’re not wrong. It’s just different. Your friend should not treat you any differently because you’re wearing synthetic fabric. They just won’t wear it.

            It comes down to “live and let live”. As long as no one is being harmed, then no one is wrong, and everyone is right. It’s just different.

            I know you’re religious and probably believe quite deeply. I’m going to give you a challenge. You don’t need to respond, and this will probably take some time anyway. In the New Testament, Jesus ate with the tax collectors. Do some research – this info will likely not be available in your bible, you need some historical rather than religious texts. In that time and place, who were the tax collectors? What did they represent, in that context? What was their standing in society? How were they treated by other people? Once you figure all that out, who are today’s tax collectors? Given how Jesus interacted with those historical tax collectors, how would he interact with today’s? Then take it one step further – how should you interact with them?

            Repeat this exercise with other passages as you desire, there’s plenty. Jesus was rather good at shocking everyone by treating people well.

          3. Detective Amy Santiago*

            Perhaps then you ought to treat those people the same way that you want to be treated rather than being a judgmental bigot.

          4. Oh boy oh boy*

            “I’ve been overwhelmed by just wanting to feel like I am being treated like everyone else. ”

            That’s exactly what your manager and supervisor’s son want, too. You feel excluded and that people are uncomfortable with you. This is what they’ve felt constantly, except a thousand times worse.

            I’m sure you think you’re not judging them, but if people can tell from your social media that you’re anti-gay marriage, boom — you’ve clearly passed judgement on them.

            Judge not lest ye be judged.

    3. Emi.*

      I’m a little confused. It sounds like your first issue with being a notary is that it might require you to perform *any* marriages, right? I would stick with that concern, because people are less likely to take it personally, and ask your supervisor for clarification—“Jane, you said the rule was X, but the handbook sounds to me like it means Y. Am I misinterpreting it?”—and if you can be a notary without performing any marriages, then go for it! (Maybe marriage isn’t a notarial *duty*, but only a notarial privilege or something?)

      1. Amy*

        Sorry, ya, that’s probably because I’m confused by it! The notary book says a notary can’t refuse any duty unless there is a conflict of interest (like a family member) or the individual(s) don’t provide proper identification. My supervisor (and the person at the state authority *verbally*) said that you can choose to not perform weddings, but that if you do any – even one – then you have to do all kinds upon request. She said that I could call and hear this directly from the person at the state office, but even if that person says I don’t have to, it doesn’t match the actual notary handbook.

        1. Undine*

          Handbooks don’t always get updated in a timely manner. I think if you call the state office, get the name of the person who tells you & maybe the statute number or other place the rule gets set, you can take that as the final view on notaries.

          Here’s something from a FAQ about notaries in Florida (one of the states that allows notaries to perform marriages):
          “Other non-statutory reasons to decline would include a conflict in the notary’s schedule or unavailability due to other commitments, or inexperience with the notarial act (such as a wedding ceremony) which could cause the notary to perform it improperly.”

          So if you just maintain inexperience with marriages (there’s a lot of paperwork to get right), you should be able to decline to perform any marriages.

          2. fposte*

            I don’t think that last sentence is true from a job standpoint, though. You can’t simply say “I won’t learn this task well enough to do it properly” and get out of the employment obligation that way.

            1. Undine*

              Yeah, it isn’t clear if this office does marriages, or if, say, she is becoming a notary to notarize documents (like at a bank), but is worried that somehow people will show up asking to be married.

              The link does say talk to a lawyer if you have questions.

              1. fposte*

                What I mean is the link is about what you’re allowed to do as a notary, but it doesn’t cover what an employer is allowed to require of somebody they employ for that purpose. An employer is allowed to require you to be good enough to the handle notary services they need, and somebody who tries to avoid notary work by saying they’re not good at it would be at risk of firing for not being able to perform expected tasks.

                1. fposte*

                  Addition: Amy notes above that her state says an employee can’t be compelled to become a notary; I can imagine that being true, but I also see that the American Association of Notaries website says “An employer has a right to require its employees to become notaries public as part of their duties of their employment in order to meet the needs of the business” and doesn’t list state exceptions to that.

    4. sooperanon!*

      I have a few thoughts:

      It’s possible that your supervisor does feel uncomfortable talking to you, and perhaps you can understand why that is. I would not feel comfortable around someone who has takes profound existential issue with who I am, especially when it doesn’t affect them whatsoever.

      However, it’s also possible that your supervisor might limit contact with you as a measure to protect BOTH of you, especially since she is your superior. She may be also trying to avoid making YOU uncomfortable, which would be really gracious of her.

      I don’t know about the laws in your state, but from what you wrote about what your supervisor said, it may be that if you agree to notarize ANY marriages, you must agree to notarize ALL marriages. There may be an ‘out’ in that you can request religious exemption from performing ANY marriages, ever. But I really don’t know the laws about notaries in general, much less in your state, so I would seek clarification from your supervisor. If you disagree with her interpretation of the handbook, then you would need to quietly go to the overseeing department; quietly because this will come across as undermining your supervisor.

      If becoming a notary is part of this job and you cannot become a notary due to your beliefs, then I don’t know if that qualifies as religious discrimination, because it’s not about “You are Christian so we don’t want you around”, it’s about “You cannot do the job as we need it to be done”.

      For what it’s worth, I am queer. I disagree strongly with your stance on this and felt really uncomfortable when you brought up your supervisor’s son’s family, because I can’t see what that has to do with your question. You seem worried that your beliefs will make you an outsider, even while your beliefs cast entire groups of people as outsiders. These beliefs are held by many, and lead to fewer housing opportunities, lower pay, less job security and even worse healthcare for LGBTQA people. If it’s okay to you that other people are put in that position because of beliefs like yours, then getting dinged on your review doesn’t seem like that high of a price to pay for your beliefs.

      1. sooperanon!*

        PS It’s possible that a coworker saw your social media and it’s been talked about. Offices, gossip mills, etc.

        1. sooperanon!*

          Thank you for being open to listening. I believe differently than you do right now, but I also think that faith and belief are lifelong processes; there is no ‘finding the one great answer’ and then you’re set forever. We can only learn, grow, and do good in the world if we remain open and compassionate to others.

        2. LawBee*

          I’m another gay commenter, and I have to say that how you are being really open and listening is a lovely thing. I don’t care if you approve of my gayness, and I don’t care what your religion says about it (fwiw, I’m also a Christian, but apparently not your denomination), but if you can at least see how society and laws are designed to make our lives harder and delegitimize me as a person and fellow US citizen – and get how much it absolutely SUCKS to be effectively punished for something over which I had no control – that is huge.

      3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Nah, it’s not religious discrimination. It’s simply how it is. If you are not willing to do the job, you don’t take the job. Discrimination involves your employer making the decision, not you — “you’re Christian, therefore we ASSUME you don’t want to solemnize these marriages, therefore we won’t hire you.”

        See also: I’m a Christian Scientist, and when I was looking for summer jobs I only looked for waitressing at restaurants that did not have a liquor license, because alcohol consumption is against my faith and I didn’t want to be involved in serving it. I wasn’t going to go to a manager and say “I’ll wait tables but if anyone orders alcohol someone else has to bring it to the table.”

      4. Elizabeth West*

        If becoming a notary is part of this job and you cannot become a notary due to your beliefs, then I don’t know if that qualifies as religious discrimination, because it’s not about “You are Christian so we don’t want you around”, it’s about “You cannot do the job as we need it to be done”.

        I’m not sure it would either–accommodations are supposed to be reasonable, and if the person cannot perform certain required aspects of the position even with accommodation, then it’s allowable to discharge them. That’s what I ran into with Exjob and my disability. Even with accommodations, I couldn’t do what they needed me to do. They were within their rights to replace me with someone else (that’s not why I got fired, but it would have been the ultimate conclusion anyway).

        Amy, if being a notary requires you to perform legal marriages if asked to do so, then I think it’s okay to ask your boss if you can decline the responsibility. If you have to be one for your job, then it’s never going to be the right fit for you and it’s probably time to start a job hunt.

    5. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      I’m concerned that my personal beliefs will forever leave me as “the other”.

      They will. Because you’ve already preemptively othered at least one coworker (and possibly others who might be LGBT but single or not out at work) and at least one family member of a coworker. It’s hard to imagine a scenario where this wouldn’t hurt you at work.

      Even if you get a pass on the notary public thing, I’m gonna second sheila_cpa here and say that you should be job searching yesterday.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        I don’t check any of your disagree-with-lifestyle boxes, as far as I know, but TBH I would be uncomfortable forming any kind of relationship with you outside of pure professionalism. If your beliefs were societal standard, there would be people I love and people I respect truly suffering.

        I know the comments are kind of piling on you, and you have my sympathy for that though.

    6. Kramerica Industries*

      What other duties could you do to make up for not being able to notarize? What I’m wondering is if your supervisor/manager are wondering if your religion is going to prevent you from doing other tasks in the future.

      For example, if you progress in your career, will they have to worry about you not wanting to approve mortgages to gay couples? Would something like this ever be a concern for you? Because if it isn’t, I might want to make it clear to the supervisor that you would never want to treat others differently in a customer service position and that you’re able to remain professional despite your beliefs.

      If you don’t want to leave, I think that the best approach would be to be direct with something like: “I wanted to raise that my religion prevents me from being a notary. However, I enjoy my job and would love to continue contributing to this team. Where else could I help out with?”

      1. Kramerica Industries*

        I’d also like to add that in such a polarized society already, I appreciate that you’re trying to gain some insight into others’ perspectives, and you sound respectful while doing it.

        I’m from Canada where we’ve had pro-LGBT and religious freedom laws for years now. I think what usually happens is that if you were met with a custom who you were uncomfortable with, you’d remain courteous, then say “We can help you with that – I’m going to refer you to my colleague who will be able to better guide your needs.”

    7. Bea*

      You are feeling uncomfortable and fretting over others who may be bothered that your opinions contradict their entire life. See how this is a mirror image?

      No. They aren’t comfortable with you thinking their wrong and using the term “lifestyle” when referring to their sexuality made me twitch.

      I don’t think you need to get a new job. I wouldn’t not want to work with you but I’m holding you to arms distance and keeping it professional.

      I’m a Christian and my POV is that of those who do not judge, do not rally to oppress others free will and all those things the faith I believe in has taught me. So do not assume that everyone under a similar umbrella are as staunch and strict as you are.

    8. 3:10 pm*

      How likely is it that you would be asked to perform marriage ceremonies? Seems like someone in the financial services field would not encounter this very often, so I’m a little confused.

      Honestly, I think you should think about finding a new job. Whether or not you have spoken about your beliefs at work, it seem your supervisor and manager know about your beliefs. The manager knows you disagree with her choice of a spouse and your supervisor knows you disagree with her son’s choice of spouse and the fact that they are raising children together.

    9. Alton*

      Here’s the thing: a lot of people who have your perspective see this as a difference of opinion or being equivalent to not believing in certain types of *behavior* (like having sex before marriage or getting divorced).

      But that’s not how most LGBT people see their identities. My sexual orientation is a part of who I am, and it’s a part that I cherish and see as fundamentally positive. It’s who I am, not what I do–similar to things like gender and race. So it’s impossible for me to feel respected by someone who sees that as a sin. If you’re married, imagine if someone thought that your love for your husband was sinful, or that being straight was sinful. Or imagine, if you’re a parent, that someone believed that having children was immoral. Would you feel comfortable opening up to people who felt this way?

      Also, keep in mind that the stakes are typically lower for you. The concern you have about feeling othered is how many of us feel our whole lives, sometimes even in our own families. And concerns about workplace discrimination can be routine for us. People who share your beliefs are often the ones who shoot down non-discrimination laws that would protect us. I live in a state where voters once chose to ban gay marriage, and I thought I would have to move one day to have a chance at a happy life.

      I also think that as long as someone is only “hurting” themselves or if they’re doing something that’s commonly accepted, it’s kind to be careful about expressing judgements in venues where they might see. We all have beliefs that *we* adhere to that are subjective and personal and shouldn’t affect how we treat people who have different beliefs. I’m vegetarian, but I recognize that not everyone feels the same as me and I don’t think meat eaters are doing anything wrong as long as they’re not being particularly cruel to animals.

    10. Merci Dee*

      Leaving aside your religious beliefs, because I think that others here have done a good job of putting forth some points for you to consider . . . . .

      If you’re still in the financial services industry, you shouldn’t have any problems with applying to be a notary. I work in accounting for a private industry, and my supervisor was granted a notary commission several years ago so that she could notarize our financial documents as needed. Our state also allows notaries public to perform wedding ceremonies, but this has never been an issue. In the five or so years that my boss has been a notary, no one has ever asked her to perform a marriage of any kind. Our state publishes a list of current notaries on its website, and someone could theoretically look up her name and call her for such services. But people tend not to do so — they usually look for notaries through more conventional search methods. Chances are very low that you would be asked to perform a marriage of any kind if you’re working as a notary in financial services.

    11. Kathenus*

      Amy – I fundamentally disagree with the beliefs you expressed in this letter, but I am impressed with your responses and how you are responding to comments on this. There are a lot of great thoughts expressed by the commentariat, some of which might help you see things from a different perspective. But if all people interacting with those that the have such polar opposite beliefs were as open to considering other people’s perspectives as you have been with other commenters here, our polarized society would be a bit better.

    12. Casuan*

      Everyone judges. It’s what we do with those judgments that matter. How you treat others should display your faith much more than which aspects of your job you can fulfil without violating your religious beliefs. These aren’t mutually dependant, although they do overlap.

      Could there be other factors at play here other than your religious beliefs? The timing suggests that it is your beliefs, although it’s worth asking yourself if there are other reasons as to what’s going on.

      You didn’t need to detail your beliefs to your manager. All you needed to convey was that your religious beliefs preclude certain tasks & to ask for the best way to accomodate your beliefs. However, you did specify your Christian beliefs & these beliefs are where they belong on social media… so yeah, that might have stereotyped you & dinged your reputation. You can counter this by showing your faith via kindness & respect, regardless of their circumstance, lifestyle & beliefs.
      eg: What if your supervisor’s grandchild became ill. Would you express sympathy or cluck that a gay couple shouldn’t have a child to begin with? Or what if they decide to attend your church to learn more about God? Would you welcome them or would you be indignant & rude because they’re gay?

      I’m A Little TeaPot has a great suggestion to help with perspective.

      Try to keep focus that someone is your colleague & not-the-sinner-who-lives-with-a-same-sex-partner & try to be conscious of if you’re giving non-verbal cues. If you can shift your thinking a bit then this might help. You don’t need to be wondering what others are thinking of you personally & you don’t need to have others thinking of you on any level beyong work.
      Which, of course, is much easier said than done!!

    13. Engineer Girl*

      Amy, you are already the other. The real question is if you can do your job as they require. If you can’t then you need to consider leaving.
      If your job duties violate your beliefs then you need to leave. Pray about this.

  158. sad nonprofiteer*

    Help pls! I work at a nonprofit and have been here just over 2 years. I currently make just over 40k a year, up from the 35k I made when I started. I found out today that a position my org is hiring for has a salary of 40k–for an entry level, just out of college position for a lower title than I have. (This position is in my department as well.)

    I’m really upset. I asked for a raise once outside of my performance review and was given a 1.5% increase (obviously not much). Then, when I got reviewed this year and my title changed (same level, more responsibility), my salary was increased to the 40k~ it is now. I pushed back when it was offered to me and was told that’s all they can do now. I am so offended/insulted/angry.

    What should I do? Budgeting is around the corner so I feel like now is the time to bring it up.

    1. a Gen X manager*

      I think others will have better advice than I can offer here, but I would suggest that in your approach think of it as a “wage adjustment” + merit increase, rather than asking for a big raise (not that you said that this was your plan!). The concept of a wage adjustment PLUS a regular annual merit increase will likely yield a more serious review of the compensation approach and a larger increase for you than just asking for a big raise.

      Good luck!

    2. Tea Time*

      Unfortunately, there probably isn’t much that you can do at this point. They already gave you a raise (btw, a $5k raise in two years is pretty decent for a nonprofit; At the nonprofit I worked at, you had to get a higher degree to even be considered for a raise) and they made it clear that was all they could offer you. Your options are to accept it and move on or start searching for a job that is willing to pay what you feel you deserve.

      Also, this isn’t something that you should be taking personally. Clearly they see a need for this position and they feel that 40k is an acceptable salary, that has no bearing on you or your salary. There are many reasons that an entry level position would make as much as a higher ranked employee. For example, it’s possible that this position requires highly specific and/or hard-to-find skills (such as web development or software engineering), involves a high amount of travel, or has the expectation of working more overtime than the rest of the office.

  159. Merci Dee*

    I’ve been doing happy little wiggles since 4:30 on Wednesday afternoon. All our 1099-MISC forms are in the mail, and I’m done with that garbage until next year!

    We had a process in place to make the forms process move faster, but we got a new CFO this month. Our Head of Department decided it would be a great idea to take a look and revamp the process . . . after I’d already prepared the filing and printed the forms for mailing . . . . and then decided to make some changes that meant I had to basically re-run the process and do additional forms printing. And he decided to do all of this last Friday, the 26th. When our forms were due to go in the mail on Wednesday, the 31st. Thankfully, we’ve put some updates in place, so next year should be really smooth. I’m keeping my fingers crossed!

    1. De Minimis*

      Right there with you, I hate that process every year. I still have to do the filing with the IRS, but I filed an extension so we have a while to do that. That part is usually a piece of cake compared to the printing/mailing of the forms.

      1. Merci Dee*

        We don’t have a huge number of forms to print, and thank heavens for that. I’m on a shared network printer, so there’s no way I can just load my forms and print away. I have to print two payees at a time on regular paper, then hold the printout behind my blank form A to make sure all the info lines up with the right boxes. Then I put my form A, copy B, and two copy 2s in the manual feed tray and photocopy the original printout onto the forms.

        Wash, rinse, repeat with the next two payees, then the next two ….

        Sigh.

        And all of this because the company decided a few years ago that buying toner cartridges was too expensive for the few of us who had individual printers at our desks. I’m tempted to buy a cheap little printer and bring it in just for preparing 1099s.

  160. 2015Royals*

    My question is how do flirt with someone above you? I am a BA and I am attracted to the Director of the IT group I work with. Is there a way to possibly flirt with her or should I just forget about that completely?

    2. AngelfoodorDevilsfood*

      Possible ways to flirt with a coworker:
      1. quit your job.
      2. wait for them to leave the company.

    4. Alton*

      I would avoid flirting at the office entirely. And while workplace romances can work out sometimes, definitely avoid anything with someone who’s your superior. It creates a conflict of interest.

  161. Curious Cat*

    This started happening like a month ago, and I’m a chronic people-pleaser who can’t say no/don’t know how to say no in the moment, so I neeeed some advice. I pass this guy’s desk every morning on my way to my desk and I generally smile, say hi, keep walking. Lately though he’s started giving me…offerings? I say hi and he stops me and will give me things. This morning he stopped me, asked if I like red velvet, I said sure (because who doesn’t?) and he magically produced a red velvet donut he got “Just for me.” He’s done this in the past with bagels and cookies and things of that nature. I never know how to say no. Like, yeah, donuts are great, but I don’t actually want the donut. It makes me feel weird. (Also as a note, I’m in my early 20s and if I had to ballpark his age I’d say mid-30s).

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      You could start with, “No thanks, I’m good!” as you breezily walk past him. Don’t stop, just give a friendly “no thanks” with no explanation as to why you don’t want it – because he might take an explanation as an invitation to argue.

      If he does anything other than smile back and stop bringing stuff “just for you” (as in pouting, pressuring you to take it, leaving it on your desk) then please feel free to be more direct and unfriendly with him. No matter his motives, if he in any way tries to make you feel bad for not accepting it, then the problem is on him. You don’t owe him any explanation of why you suddenly don’t want them. (If he leaves it on your desk, put it in the break room or something.)

      I’m a people pleaser myself and have had to deal with this issue from time to time in my life. As I get older, I care a lot less about, well, pretty much everything, and I have stopped many of my people pleasing ways. It gets easier with time and practice!

      1. fposte*

        This is a great response. Basically, when it comes to humans physics is wrong: not every action needs an equal reaction. Do not wonder what size deal this is to him; just decide that for you it is a small one.

      2. Curious Cat*

        I’ll need to start practicing just saying no. I have such problems with doing that with how I was raised/societal expectations of young women, but it’s something I do need to start practicing so starting with him and doing the “no thanks!” like you suggested is a good jumping off point (he can be my testing ground for saying no). Thank you, I think I needed a little push that it’s OK to say no.

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          Captain Awkward has some great scripts and suggestions for getting out of the people-pleasing mindset. This is a perfect situation to practice – it’s low stakes and easy to implement. One of the biggest things that helps me – and I still have to remind myself – is that others’ feelings are not mine to manage.

        2. fposte*

          I also think the advice *not to stop walking* is really significant here. When you say “He stops me,” you mean he says “Wait” or “Hang on,” right? Not that he physically interferes with your progress? So don’t stop for him–just keep walking and throw out a “Gotta get to work!” as you walk.

          1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

            That’s a good point too – just because he wants you to stop, you don’t have to. It’s not rude to move on past him on your way to your desk.

          2. Curious Cat*

            Right, he usually will say a “wait” or “oh hey, I wanted to ask you…”, some starter to get me to stop walking. So. Ok. Eyes forward, keep walking, gotta get to my desk (which, I do.)

        3. Kuododi*

          Ask yourself this question…. What is the worst thing that would happen if you gave this guy a firm non debatable “no”? Would the Apocalypse come to pass? Would you drop dead from the stress of possibly hurting his feelings? (BTW the correct answer is No!) ;) You will be fine, he will probably be a bit aggravated…but survive just fine and the earth will keep rotating. Guys like this have to be shut down with a firm no. You aren’t responsible for his feelings. Take care of yourself, be firm and keep us posted!!! Best regards…..

    2. Littlelionlass*

      Oof. I’d say stop greeting this guy every morning and put some distance between you and him. Is there another way to get to your desk without walking by him? Can you pretend to be on a phone call (or actually be on a phone call) when you walk by him?

      Otherwise a good script is “Thank you so much, but I ate a huge breakfast this morning. It’s all yours!” Or “I am just not up for sweets today, but I’ll put it in the break room for someone else to have a go at! Thanks!”

      1. Curious Cat*

        Unfortunately there’s no other way to get to my desk, and I do usually listen to a podcast/music on my commute in so I often have headphones in when I’m walking by, but when he offers me things he stops me so I feel obligated to take the headphones out.
        But I like your scripts! Along with just the simple “No thanks” suggested above, I’ll try to incorporate them. I especially like that first one. Thank you!!

        1. fposte*

          Then in addition to not stopping, leave your headphones in. Wave, “Morning, Bob–gotta get to the desk,” keep walking and stay plugged.

        2. Camellia*

          How does he stop you? I mean, does he physically come stand in front of you so that you can’t get by, or are you just automatically stopping because he has indicated that he ‘wants to interact’ with you, so to speak? I ask because I think there are two different responses, based on the situation.

          If you are just automatically stopping because politeness then, as others have said, just keep breezily going with a “No thanks, I’m good,” or similar. Also, don’t smile as much or maybe even at all – I mention this because I have a tendency to respond with a huge smile and I know I do it to try to indicate that I’m not really being mean or am a terrible human being. But all it does is encourage them.

          However, if he is physically doing something that makes you have to stop, then all appearance of niceness goes away. Don’t smile. Just calmly say, “No thanks, I just need to get to my desk now.” If he doesn’t immediately step aside, take one small step forward. If he still doesn’t move out of your way, say, “I need to get to my desk.” Each time you are forced to repeat this, get a bit louder. Don’t let him guilt you by saying he is just trying to be nice, etc.; the awkwardness is all on him.

          If these don’t make him stop I think you have a bigger problem that might need to be taken to your manager. But hopefully this is just his way of flirting or whatever and he will quickly stop when you indicate you are not interested.

          1. Curious Cat*

            I mentioned in a comment above, but it’s more of an indication that he wants me to stop or saying “Wait”, not actually physically stopping me. But it seems everyone is saying pretty much the same thing, keep my headphones in, don’t stop, keep walking to my desk.

            I’m assuming this is his way of flirting, but the whole situation just makes me really, truly uncomfortable. I don’t want to be offered ‘gifts’ at work, I don’t want to be ‘flirted’ with, I really just want to get to my desk and work.

    3. Pollygrammer*

      I don’t think turning the gifts down individually is enough, and this isn’t about the food itself. The age gap isn’t enough to think he’s just doing this out of the goodness of his heart; he’s flirting or hitting on you, and he shouldn’t be.

      The more you accept, the more leverage he’s going to think he has. He may think that your morning hello is already enough of an indication that you’re interested. If he asks you out, are you enough of a people-pleaser to agree even if you don’t really want to?

      I think you need to say “no more little snacks, please.” And firmly. Don’t hedge, don’t tell him it’s because you’re cutting down on sugar or anything like that. You don’t want “just for you” presents from him and that’s that. I know it’s hard! But I can easily see this situation getting harder the longer you wait.

      1. Curious Cat*

        I would like to think that if he got to the point of actually asking me out that I could say no, because (a) I’m not interested and (b) I just find it so inappropriate for this to be happening at work that I know my jerk reaction would be a no.

        I agree that I do eventually need to say “stop” to the food, but I’ll be honest that I’m not totally convinced that’s something I could outright say right now. I’ll have to start with the repeated “no’s” as mentioned above, and then if he still continues, and once I feel confident enough, actually saying “stop.”

        1. Anna Held*

          It’s hard, but you do need to learn to say no. (Practice it with a friend!) If you have that much trouble, though, just get to work earlier before he’s in.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Yeah, I had a (much older) guy start doing this, bringing me a certain kind of cookie that he knew I liked. It was a giant, individually wrapped cookie so not like “here’s an Oreo from the bag I’m noshing on” but indicated an effort. It wasn’t very frequent so I didn’t shut it down at first, and he did in fact escalate in a harrass-y sense. That was when I shut it down, but I really wish I’d put a stop to it sooner.

      Keep walking, minimal politeness to acknowledge him, and “No thanks” to any gift offerings.

  162. A.N.O.N.*

    Left Toxic Old Job where I was a dept. of one a few months ago and Big Boss decided not to replace me. I gotta admit, I felt a bit slighted that they thought my work wasn’t valuable enough to continue doing.

    Fast forward a few months, and the employees are rebelling against management, hoping to unionize.

    One of the things the union wants? To hire someone to fill my old position.

    Oh, karma….

  163. Startup optimist*

    At what point should a startup employee get nervous about job stability? I’ve been here for less than a year, but the company has been around longer. Recently the CEO has mentioned things about investors, sales, and runway that make me think we might be running out of money at some point in the not terribly distant future, but it doesn’t seem like people are generally worried. Or maybe they are and just aren’t talking to me about it. I really like this job, I feel confident I wouldn’t have too much trouble finding a similar one if I needed to, and I have savings to get me by in the meantime, so I’m not worrying too much about it yet. But should I be? Am I being overly optimistic and trusting?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you should always be worried. That’s part of what startup life is like. Could be a billion-dollar company. Or it could fold within the next month.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Done! I also requested that my library purchase a Kindle edition, which they have done/agreed to do. Woo!

  165. Rat_catcher*

    So I have a situation I could use some perspective on. We tried to hire someone for my department recently. Went through the process, got the internal okay to hire, posted, got 200+ applications, interviewed once, interviewed again, and then made the offer which was accepted. The start date was to be in a couple weeks, but, the offer was “withdrawn” (because of management idiocy and a dick measuring contest that is unbecoming of the execs involved). So the candidate had already given notice, been removed from all upcoming work schedules and was planning to start work with us and move to a new city when the rug was pulled out from under them.

    Has anyone had this happen before? Isn’t the candidate due some sort of compensation?

    1. a Gen X manager*

      Yes, the candidate was eligible for unemployment (but they had to have had the job offer in writing).

  166. Anon for This Post*

    Background: I’m a content manager, so my duties include reviewing writer submissions, editing them, providing feedback, and making sure writers are complying with house style rules as well as client-specific instructions. Earlier this week, I had to send back a submission three times because the writer did not follow the instructions. Every time she resubmitted the project, it still had at least one of the errors I already told her about. My shift ended before I could review her latest submission, so I asked my supervisor to review it. I told him that I had taken a quick glance and that it still needed work, as she still had not managed to comply with the instructions. I was surprised when I came in the next day and realized that he just completed the project and sent it to the client, with no edits and no note to the writer to tell her what she had missed. I am a bit taken aback because I think it sets a bad precedent. 1) The client receives work that does not conform to their standards. 2) The writer doesn’t receive the feedback she needs to improve her work in the future. 3) I think it kind of undermines the content managers’ authority a bit, as it teaches writers that they can get away with ignoring instructions/not implementing supervisor feedback.

    Would you bring this up with your supervisor? If so, what would you say? I am truly not trying to be critical, but my entire job exists because we’re supposed to be fixing errors and making sure projects are done according to client guidelines. I don’t understand why we would send out subpar work.

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      It’s kind of complicated since it’s your supervisor, but maybe a non-confrontational “I was surprised to see the final product that was approved for client X. It still didn’t conform to the client standards as I understand them. Going forward, should I be using different criteria for approving this content?”

      If you sound calm and curious, it should be okay. And approaching it as a question about your work will keep it from being accusatory, but maybe still trigger the “whoops!” response you’re hoping for from your supervisor.

    3. WellRed*

      Late to this, but honestly, at that point I would have done the same thing as you mgr. At some point, you gotta let it go/meet deadlines.

  167. ScaryBlueberry*

    Recently, we had a bunch of people leave my workplace for better-paying jobs. It’s a social work agency– lots of stress, not lots of $$. Unfortunately, that’s led to some personality clashes between new hires and old hires. My unofficial role is kind of the peacemaker. When someone says something critical about someone else, I tend to try & defuse things. (A very old habit, learned growing up.) But it’s been getting really, really tense lately, & I feel like it’s better to just stay out of it.

    For example, my direct manager, Isabella, is butting heads with another co-worker, Lydia. They’re very much alike in that they like to get stuff done, they don’t hesitate to get their hands dirty & work hard. But they also both tend to see things their way only. Anyone else’s way is wrong. This is leading to some really tense situations. I’m pretty sure our director is getting ready to intervene, from a comment I heard from yet another co-worker, but I don’t feel like that’s my issue to deal with.

    But in the meantime, I’m going to step back from that, & other similar conflicts. I’m just not sure what the best approach would be. My knee-jerk is “Don’t say a thing. When they’re done complaining, nod, & then go back to whatever the original subject was.” And when someone opens a conversation with “Can I talk to you about something?” I think my response needs to be “If it’s about my work, absolutely! What do you need me to do?” Or something like that? Scripts / input very welcome.

    (And FTR, we’re generally pretty stable. It’s just been a stressful time for everyone, & it’s going to take time for all of us to adjust to the changes.)

  168. gala apple*

    When job searching, how much stock do you put into Glassdoor reviews?

    I’m looking up every company that has roles that are somewhat-applicable, and the Glassdoor reviews all seem to sway me. Either the reviews are obviously faked, or the pay is so far below what I make now, or all the recent interviews got negative ratings…

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Eh, not much. I don’t put a lot of stock into reviews in general. In my life, I have found that they are pretty much only left by people at either end of the spectrum – either loved it or hated. It’s been truly rare for me to read a review on anything that was balanced and well-written.

      I would pay more attention to the cues you pick up on in an interview and how the interviewers talk about the job and the company.

    2. Goya de la Mancha*

      I guess I’ve never put much stock into the reviews on glassdoor, I usually look at it for salary estimates when I’m job hunting. But I would treat it like I do any other review, look for the 3’s (out of 5 stars). Those are the ones who are more likely to have the honest feedback. Too low and they’re just angry that the company screwed them in some way, too high and I feel like it’s a fake account.

    3. Phillipa Lanthropy*

      I use it as a baseline so that if I get to the interview stage I can try to guage if the glassdoor reviews were just overly frustated and burnt out people or fake good reviews

    4. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      I don’t really bother looking at them. If it’s a big enough company, the culture can and does vary considerably depending on where in the org you are. Plus, who’s more likely to take the time to post a review? The people with a problem. So they’re biased.

  170. Question Mark*

    One of my coworkers (Skylar) recently announced in a staff meeting that she has BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) and therefore would be asking us to call her whatever name of whichever “alt” (persona?) was “fronting” that day. No one has complained about this, but Skylar has taken to screaming at people when they use the wrong name, even if she hasn’t told them which “alt” is “fronting.”

    Everyone is getting really tired of this. Even worse, Skylar admitted in a text that she wasn’t ever diagnosed, she just read about it on Tumblr and it sounded “cool” and since it makes her “protected” she pretty much does whatever she wants and never gets any real work done.

    Our boss is pretty much worthless. He’s afraid since she claims its a mental illness, he can’t touch her.
    Anyone have any advice? I’ve thought about going to HR but I don’t know what to say.

    1. extra anon today*

      This is not even what borderline personality disorder is????? My mother has it so I’m pretty familiar. Regardless, screaming at people isn’t protected behavior.

      1. Overworked and Underpaid*

        Came here to say the same thing! Skylar is describing Dissociative Identity Disorder

    2. Manders*

      Uh, yikes. I have no advice, just sympathy–that’s very odd behavior.

      It seems like Skylar has a lot of accommodation options available to her, like having a set of name tags she can switch out as needed, or being referred to by her last name professionally. But “gets to scream at coworkers whenever she wants with zero consequences” and “gets a get-out-of-work-free card all day every day while still getting paid” aren’t reasonable accommodations in most workplaces, and your boss is seriously misunderstanding how the ADA works.

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Wow. So anyway, I’d still go to your boss just so you can have a documented conversation, and tell him the impact this is having on your work and the business. Even if he’s useless and won’t do anything, that is helpful to have documented when you to go HR. Remind your boss that simply claiming a mental illness doesn’t mean she gets automatic ADA protections, she has to set that up via HR. And also, he can still discipline or fire her for performance and disturbing the workplace.

      Since it sounds like he won’t do anything, take all this info to HR and explain the situation. I don’t know if you need to bring up the text – you don’t have to have “proof” of her illness but you can start with letting them know the impact and that your manager hasn’t done anything about it.

    5. WellRed*

      I’d start with falsely seeking accommodation for a disorder she doesn’t even have. Even uf she did, accommodation does not include abusing her coworkers. And frankly, is she mixing up BPD with multiple personality disorder?

    6. Amber O.*

      My advice? Run away! Skylar obviously sounds like she has some serious attention-seeking issues, and if your boss isn’t willing to do anything, it’s definitely not going to get better. As someone with a sibling diagnosed with BPD, they don’t have alternative personalities and even a quick google search would show Skylar and your boss that much.

    7. gmg22*

      Yeah, the “alt persona” stuff is not a symptom of BPD to my knowledge, but from what you’re describing it seems a possibility that there is some other mental illness issue present here. I don’t want to take speculation any farther than that and risk running afoul of the comment policy, but it seems to me you could just say to HR something along the lines of “we want to support our colleague with whatever’s going on, but we could use some guidance with regard to how to respond to any disruptive behavior.” This is their job — let them take it from there.

    8. H.C.*

      Document Skylar’s behavior (the screaming, the weirdness of asking others to call her by an “alt name”, the text she sent you that she wasn’t ever diagnosed) and let HR know that your colleague is exhibiting unprofessional/disturbing/etc. behavior in the workplace, and how it’s impacting your team’s ability to work (projects running behind because Skylar isn’t doing her share, meetings getting interrupted by her outbursts, etc.)

      Also, if your boss isn’t willing to do anything about it, you may want to bring this up to GrandBoss (if there is one) as well.

    9. Tea Time*

      YOU NEED TO TELL HR. This woman is lying about having a serious condition, further stigmatizing mental illness with her drama, and using it as an excuse to act unprofessional and get out of doing her job. This is horrifying behavior. She needs to know that what she’s doing is not okay.

      She’s already admitted to lying, which will be very helpful for you. Do you have record of that text? If not, see if you can prompt her to admit it again over text, email, or IM. Then bring whatever you have straight to HR, along with examples of how her actions are disruptive to the office. Hopefully it will be enough to prompt an investigation.

      Best of luck! I hope your company is willing to handle her properly.

      1. Question Mark*

        I don’t have the text, but another coworker does. We may just go to HR together. We’re really sick of this.

    11. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      A) That’s not even what BPD is
      B) Reasonable accommodations don’t include screaming at people or being disruptive. Emphasis here on reasonable.
      C) That’s not how protected classes work either
      D) Get thee to HR!

    12. BPD is Me*

      Oh sweet Jesus. That is NOT BPD. I have BPD. It sucks. I know that the Tumblr crowd loves to claim they have these mental illnesses, but they need to STOP. It is not glamorous. It doesn’t make you “awesomely different.” It makes you MISERABLE.

    14. Engineer Girl*

      BPD is usually not protected. Especially so since she has no formal diagnosis. And BPD is a hard diagnosis to get, as it is many times misdiagnosed. (I have a BPD sister).

      The screaming is not protected. This is not a “reasonable accommodation”.

      I’d call her bluff. She’ll escalate. Stay calm and she’ll escalate more. Eventually she’ll get herself fired.

      In the mean time go to HR.

      1. Engineer Girl*

        I realize I came off as mean. I really have NO tolerance for people that use the disability excuse to abuse others.

        But go to HR, because this needs to be shut down.

    15. Kuododi*

      Speaking as a clinician…Skylar is full of horse manure and really needs to up her online research game if she’s going to start randomly claiming mental health diagnoses without a report from a mental health clinician. Please in the name of all that is holy… report this silly person to HR and anyone else who might be able to help. Keep us posted and best wishes!!!

  171. Just a thought*

    Does anyone have tips or scripts for dealing with condescending colleges?

    I’m a young woman in a male dominated office doing government contracting. Some of the government workers and contractors from a competing company (they lost a contract that my company won), keep saying things like “oh since you’re young let me explain this to you” “I know you’re new” “I have a lot of experience and this is how we do it”. My supervisor said he’ll come with me next time so that they can’t say that to him, but I’m not sure that’s going to help me with credibility or anything. One of the government clients likes to also make passive-aggressive remarks about my company or me just “cut and pasting” something I discussed with him to get right. None of these individually are that bad, but it’s beginning to get tiring dealing with this every.single.day.

    2. Curious Cat*

      If they say something like “I have a lot of experience and this is how we do it” can you respond with an “I know, thanks.” ? or an “I’m already familiar with this.”

      1. Just a thought*

        For that specific case, it was not how we do it so I wasn’t familiar with his wrong way. Still, he could have explained it without repeating “I know you’re new” and “I have experience” so many times and then telling me his resume

    3. 2015Royals*

      I have experienced this quite a bit throughout my career and it mostly comes down to them being insecure and feeling threatened. You should almost take it as a compliment. Once I stood back and realized that is what was going on in my situations it actually made me laugh when these people did this. In my previous position at my current company my manager was extremely insecure. One day he was commending me for taking the initiative to do something, the next he was telling me that I shouldn’t have done that because that should come from his level and I should “stay in my lane”. It amazes me how people do these things to make themselves feel better.

      In the instance of a client making passive-aggressive remarks about “cutting and pasting”, I would ask him if he has any examples because you would like to look into it further. Putting them on the spot might just stop the comments. It doesn’t have to be confrontational, just point out that they have made these comments before and it concerns you.

    4. Engineer Girl*

      “Thank you for the input. I’ll consider it” spoken in an authoritative voice. Use a manager voice if you can.

  172. Marzipan*

    Gah. Massive anxiety spike this week, culminating in my grandboss sending me home today (nicely, kindly, having first gently insisted on calling my doctors and getting me an appointment for today). They have loaded me up with beta blockers to help stop the massive adrenaline-fuelled moments of panic that come on every time one persistent issue comes up at work. (The work issue, as is always the way, is not actually that big a deal, but my brain has apparently decided it’s a velociraptor and is reacting accordingly.)

    Meanwhile, my tutor for my master’s degree is taking time off to deal with a really, really tough and tragic personal situation, so my group has another tutor temporarily. She seems very nice but I feel terrible for my normal tutor. Also, we literally heard about this on the morning of a deadline day for a piece of work, and I didn’t have time to retrieve it and check there weren’t any points where I’d subconsciously relied on the original tutor’s knowledge of what I was working on (I’m submitting sections of the same novel for each assignment this year). So I am mildly worrying about that, on top.

      1. Marzipan*

        (…checks to make sure Elizabeth is not a velociraptor…)
        (…she is not a velociraptor…)

        Thanks!

  173. Ghostwriter*

    I could use some advice from the commenter contingent on managing mental health issues at work. Specifically, I relapsed with an eating disorder this fall after having been in really solid recovery for several years. I hate asking for permission to come in later or leave early for appointments (it’s usually +/- 30 minutes and I can make the time up, but I’m sheepish about the frequency). Any advice?

    1. Marzipan*

      Sorry to hear you’ve been dealing with this, and I hope your treatment and support is going well.

      Is there a particular reason you’re concerned people would have a problem with you rearranging your work schedule in this way, or is this a note internal worry? Very often, other people aren’t paying anywhere near as much attention to us as we fear they are – is just saying ‘I’m having some regular appointments at the moment to take care of a health issue’ workable for you?

        1. Ghostwriter*

          Our team has A LOT of meetings, and someone else is on an alternative schedule so they can put their kid on the bus, which knocks out most of the morning. I’ve mostly been leaving early. There isn’t a ton of respect for just blocking time as out of office on outlook, so then there are awkward conversations when someone tries to schedule a meeting during an appointment.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      How frequent and/or regular are your appointments? If it’s a matter of “I need to leave work at 4pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays” then that is something that should be reasonably easy to book as a recurring unavailability. If you’re making your appointments on an ad-hoc basis, that does make it more complex; would it be better in that case to just ask for a semipermanent schedule adjustment so you’re working, say, 7:30-4:30 instead of 9-6?

      1. Ghostwriter*

        It’s ad-hoc right now, but that’s the nature of the beast when you’re trying to get off wait lists. This would be a nonissue if there were standing times.

        1. BlueBloodMoon*

          Can you just approach it as any other chronic health issue (think: back pain) and explain that you need regular visits for a bit but can’t get them regularly scheduled right now. This totally happens with other health concerns that flare up. I see a therapist twice a month and I schedule all
          different times and days …so one never knows when I will be going and I don’t think anyone makes any asssumptions about where I’m going or why.

    3. LCL*

      The way I describe explain requests to our employees is, you have to ask us for vacation. You tell us if you are taking medical time, and we appreciate advance notice but it is never denied. I just went through this yesterday with someone who wanted vacation during a peak period, and I found out he really wanted medical leave.

  174. Like The City*

    Mostly a vent but if anyone has suggestions, I’m open to it! I work for a small-ish company that sells teapots. I run the Teapot Customer Service department, even though most days it feels like I actually don’t run it. The reason? The owner has allowed their new second-in-command to run everything. I don’t mean high-level reporting or things like that. I mean that I (and the other department managers) generally cannot implement any sort of change or do anything beyond the most minor decisions without Second-In-Command’s input.

    For example, last week I was told by this person that I would be absorbing another department so that I could correct some issues there. However, I’m not allowed to tell them that they’re moving, Second-In-Command wants to do that. It’s now been over a week since this was decided and Second-In-Command has told all other department managers, which means it’s probably all over the building. The only people who haven’t been told? The ones moving to my department.

    Once this department is told and the move is officially made, I most likely will not be able to make any minor and needed procedural changes without notifying this person first. Is any of this normal? Because this person has a hand in literally everything, it takes what feels like ages to get anywhere. I am completely fine with having someone to answer to, that’s not what this is at all. I just don’t like feeling like I can’t make any decision for my department. This is my first manager role and this is a different industry than I’ve worked in before so I don’t have anything to compare against. I’m pretty sure this is not normal at all.

    1. BatteryB*

      It is definitely not normal. Have you talked to either the owner or the new second in command about the changes in responsibilities?

      1. Like The City*

        I personally have not talked to the owner but have been in the room when others have tried and it did not go well. I think they’ve gotten to close as friends and it’s messing with work dynamics. When second-in-command was first here and things could’ve been reined in before they got too close as friends, the owner was gone pretty much all the time…which has led to the current situation, I’m sure.

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      Time to look for a new job. Your management sucks, and sucky management is the best reason to leave a job. Leverage your broader responsibilities to find a better job, working for someone you can respect.

      1. Like The City*

        I’ve been looking but I haven’t come across the right thing just yet. Hopefully the right thing will come up soon!

  175. Overeducated*

    Has anyone else been asked to agree to a start date before receiving a formal offer? I was asked this yesterday, supposedly because it has to be put on the actual hiring paperwork, but don’t yet have the written offer. The longer I wait, the shorter my notice period will be! I pushed back on the suggested mid-February start date because of my nervousness about this and agreed on the beginning of March, but I’m still a little concerned.

    It’s not just the start date, it seems like everything is going backward with this job offer. So far I’ve been shown “my desk,” taken and turned in paperwork for the computer security training, taken a multi-day in-person training for all staff (which I was able to get approval for because both current and new job are in the same national organization), been put on the list as one of the new job’s attendees at an upcoming national conference, and received a Facebook message from an acquaintance working in the new office saying “Hey! Glad you’re coming to work for us! I saw your name in the new employee onboarding system!” But I still have no written offer.

    WEIRD, RIGHT?

    1. Engineer Girl*

      I’d write an email to the hiring manager that your start date is delayed because you have no written offer.
      Let them know that your start date is two weeks after the written offer.

        1. Overeducated*

          Thanks to both of you. I agreed to start date 4 weeks from Monday instead of the one 2 weeks away, but if the offer is delayed much longer I will ask for that to be changed too.

          Also just talked to my boss – HR called HIM on Thursday to check in about the start date 2 weeks away, WITHOUT giving me an offer or me giving notice. (It’s a semi-internal hire so I guess they think it’s ok, but seriously?) He just called me on Saturday morning to ask about that and said he thought a month’s notice would be preferable. Thank goodness I was able to say I pushed back and got a month….

    2. Thlayli*

      Yeah weird. I once had a company send me a contract to sign before giving me a formal offer. I asked more questions about benefits and stuff and they kept fobbing me off. In The end I walked away. Something wasn’t right.

      1. Overeducated*

        Yikes. I know the org, I’m in it and it’s not sketchy but we’re having a lot of issues with bureaucratic hurdles right now…I think they are doing the best they can to run everything simultaneously to get everyone on board ASAP, but I am not very happy about how they are handling this offer/notice/start date process.

        Especially because if I get an offer from another job I interviewed for before this one officially comes through, well, I’d seriously consider it, and the other one wouldn’t start for 6 months….

  176. Me--Blargh I don't want my avatar on this post*

    I have an interview next week for an admin position in the training department at the corporate headquarters of a large company whose name you would know if I said it. It looks to be a pretty low-level job, judging by a very sparse job description (setting up training rooms, etc.).

    I just can’t make ends meet on the salaries here–a relative has been helping me and it’s not enough to cover. The price of things has gone up since my last bout of unemployment, but the salaries have not. My money market account is almost empty. I’m so f*cked. I’ve applied to this company before to no avail, and this is the first time they’ve called me (for a job I’m underqualified for, apparently).

    If I get an offer and it’s not rock bottom, I’ll take it. The recruiting intern asked on the phone about what I’m looking for, but she sidestepped my question about range, so I told her I didn’t want to throw anything out until I’d found out more about the position. She did say, “Mm hmm, oh great, very good,” when I talked about writing and editing as a strength, but I have no way of knowing if it relates to the position in any way.

    I’m sure I can do a good job in this position, but two things about it really bother me:

    –Unless I get to actually work on some documentation, I don’t think it would add anything to my resume; in fact, it would just take me further away from escaping admin work altogether. While that’s not really a problem for a stopgap job, there is so little around here that I’m afraid I’ll get stuck in it. The company is headquartered here, so there’s little chance of a transfer out of this market.

    This is more problematic:

    –A friend of mine had previously worked there (not the same department) and said when they found out she was married to a woman, everybody stopped talking to her, and she ended up quitting. It’s not a potential issue for me personally, but of course it makes me feel extremely stabby. As in I’d boycott this company’s retail locations over it.

    She is okay with me getting a job there (she said they have some good perks), but it makes me want to spit nails that I’m even forced to interview with a company that could be this shitty because I have no choice. It’s not the only place here about which I’ve heard rumors of this nature.

    If I should get the job, I know I can be polite and I don’t have to engage with coworkers in any way outside work, etc. But I don’t want them to know anything about me, especially religious stuff, since I’m a hellbound non-churchgoer who participates in heathen Buddhist rituals every weekend. /s

    What questions can I ask about culture? How will I manage if I actually get it and it’s as bad as my friend said?

    Of course, I may not even get the job. And it might not be like this, but I don’t want to listen to that crap all day.

    *headdesk*
    *headdesk*
    *headdesk*

    If only I could have a miracle, and the perfect entry-level stepping stone job in the right direction would open up and I would get it. Or even better, I’d get a lucrative three-book deal. >_<

    1. Havarti*

      Oh man, that sucks. If I were in your shoes, I’d probably take the job if it paid a decent amount and stick to talking about the weather. This reminded me of what Neil Gaiman said in a 2012 commencement speech:

      “Sometimes the way to do what you hope to do will be clear cut, and sometimes it will be almost impossible to decide whether or not you are doing the correct thing, because you’ll have to balance your goals and hopes with feeding yourself, paying debts, finding work, settling for what you can get.

      Something that worked for me was imagining that where I wanted to be – which was an author, primarily of fiction, making good books, making good comics, making good drama and supporting myself through my words – imagining that was a mountain, a distant mountain. My goal.

      And I knew that as long as I kept walking towards the mountain I would be all right. And when I truly was not sure what to do, I could stop, and think about whether it was taking me towards or away from the mountain. I said no to editorial jobs on magazines, proper jobs that would have paid proper money because I knew that, attractive though they were, for me they would have been walking away from the mountain. And if those job offers had come earlier I might have taken them, because they still would have been closer to the mountain than I was at that time.”

      Maybe if you get this job it won’t get you closer to your mountain but hopefully it’ll keep you fed while you work on making that 3 book deal a reality. Good luck!

      1. caledonia*

        This is such a great quote.
        Also, you can’t write a book if you’re dead. You need money for that.
        Fingers crossed. Sometimes having a job makes it easier to get another one.

    2. Kiwi*

      It’s easier to find a job when you’ve already got one, and it’s ok to take any job just so you can pay some bills.

      So don’t beat yourself up if you need to take it. Just keep on looking afterwards. A shitty job buys you time.

  177. Newbie*

    I’ve never posted in these Friday threads before, but I’ve been feeling a lot of frustration at work and I mostly just wanted to vent and see if anyone had any similar stories/words of advice.

    Generally put, I feel really held back by management from doing my job successfully. I work in Human Resources for a smallish company that is run by a team of siblings. I am the first person to work here in an HR capacity and it feels like there’s a lot of disregard for my opinion and I get left out of the loop a lot. Here is a recent example: We recently had an employee be fired under very dramatic circumstances (think along the lines of stealing) and when it came to payroll I included her hours into the spreadsheet that I send to the owner as usual, come to find out on payday that he didn’t pay her because he believes he shouldn’t have to due to the circumstances of her being let go. I have spoken with him to ensure that he knows that this is illegal and despite knowing this he still wants to continue to not pay the employee. I know this is wrong, HE knows it’s wrong but is not going to do anything differently because he believe the employee will not file a complaint… I feel at a loss of what to do besides shrug my shoulders and just accept that if something negative happens that I tried my best and made him aware of the circumstances.

    A similar but less dramatic case of feeling like my opinion and insight isn’t listened to: We are hiring currently and are very short staffed. The positions we are looking for tend to have high turnover as they are lower skilled roles. I recently spoke with someone who did very well in the interview. They did so well that I felt concern about him being overqualified, however I brought up my concerns and the candidate expressed that he was looking to downsize the stress in his life and we had an entire conversation about that. I was speaking with the owner of the company and mentioned my reservations but mentioned that the candidate and I had spoken and I felt that he understood the role well and would be a good fit with the understanding that it would be a step down but lower stress job for him. Well, despite me already having the conversation, the owner insisted that HE call the guy to “find out his intentions”. I felt very condescending and like my judgement wasn’t trusted. I just got an email from the owner telling me to hire the candidate because they had talked and “everything was explained”. Everything had already been explained!

    Ugh, anyway, I am looking to leave but until I get something new I am struggling with not having a major freakout every time an occurrence like this comes up.

    1. Jadelyn*

      Ouch. Luckily our management here is very good about listening to HR and involving us in things as appropriate, but that sounds awful.

      I think this really falls into the category of “your boss sucks and isn’t going to change”. My only advice, other than “get out ASAP”, is to make sure you thoroughly document EVERYTHING, so that if/when his actions come back to bite the company, you don’t get hit by the splash damage. Everything in writing, or at the bare minimum document your conversations in a word document that you keep privately. And keep copies of everything at home! Someone like this wouldn’t think twice about destroying incriminating records.

      1. Newbie*

        Thank you, I’ve been here for almost 2 years now and I think a part of me was wondering if I was being over dramatic, so it was nice to hear someone completely outside the situation back me up that I have a right to feel frustrated because I’ve been feeling this way for a while.

        I definitely do my best to record as much as I can when I feel that the owner does something particularly problematic (and there have been quite a few occurrences) but it’s those little occurrences in between that I feel so stuck in. Like with going over my head with hiring even though he never met the candidate and was not involved in our interview one bit besides what I shared with him after. It feels like “Why am I even here?!?!” when people constantly go behind my back or over my head. My supervisor is a family member of the owner and really feeds into his behavior so I feel like there’s no hesitation to cut me out of things because they can always just go above me and by the time that happens I don’t want to waste capital arguing with my supervisor or the owner so I just resort to dealing with it.

    2. Havarti*

      Holy smokes! The owner is made of bees. There is no fixing this. You need to leave like yesterday. If you haven’t started looking super seriously, do so now. And then disengage a bit because they’re not going to listen to you anyway. Do whatever you need to do to keep calm and stop caring because these things are just going to keep happening whether you freakout or not. So when the owner says HE’S going to do the thing you already did? Say “ok” and move onto the next topic. My only fear is how their (illegal) actions will affect you as their HR person so hopefully someone with actual experience can chime in on that.

      1. Newbie*

        Thank you, I do tend to let things go when he or anyone else goes above my head or cuts me out of a process that I should be included in. Since everyone’s family there’s really no one I can turn to with my frustration, it all just turns into internal rage haha Thankfully I love working out so I can let my stress out elsewhere but it’s very frustrating to be hired for something and then be held back by the people who hired me. I am actively applying though, so hopefully my ticket out comes sooner rather than later!

    3. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Regarding the ex-employee who isn’t gonna get paid – do something about it. Contact the person and let them know they need to file a complaint. Actually file a complaint yourself. Something. Because if you don’t, you’re also guilty- possibly legally, but definitely morally.

      And get a new job ASAP. Feel free to tip off the appropriate regulator after you leave of anything you’re aware of.

    4. Kathenus*

      I have split feelings on this one, honestly. The first example is crazy wrong as others have said. and I think you need to get written documentation that you told the owner that it is illegal to withhold pay for time worked, to protect yourself if there’s a legal action on this (or from them blaming you for it later if there is).

      On the second, I’m more mixed. I understand your wanting your opinion to be listened to and valued by the owners, but I can also see their desire to talk to the person themselves to get their own perspective on this. Especially if it’s a role that’s had high turnover and maybe the feel this candidate can bring some stability. To me this would be all about how it was done (if they were condescending, dismissive, etc.) versus that they wanted to speak to the person themselves. I could see myself wanting to do that in some cases, and a few years back I did have a conversation with a vastly overqualified candidate to better understand why they were interested in the position.

      But, that said, I agree with the other commenters that you might be best served by looking for another job for your long-term career and sanity standpoint.

  178. Lumen*

    Hey everyone. I’m struggling lately with the cliques at work. Even though I know better. *sigh*

    There’s a group of 3 or 4 in my department who do the usual middle-school things: gossip and whisper 3 feet from me with their backs turned, schedule lunches and outings with each other in front of everyone, even though no one else is invited. It’s just low-key, slightly petty, exclusionary, semi-unconscious behavior. Not a huge deal.

    And most of the time for the past year and change, I have been able to ignore it, partly because: I don’t really have much in common with them or really want to be friends with them anyway! I also know that a few of these coworkers have had an issue with me since I started, solely because they had a beef with our supervisor Jane (who hired me). I even know that cliques like this pop up where management is weak and… Jane is great, but not a super strong manager.

    Still. It’s gotten harder since Jane hired Sally, who is very similar to me. I used to think “they don’t like me because I’m younger than them/not religious like them/don’t have a spouse or kids like them/was hired by Jane who they dislike”. But… Sally is younger than me, not religious, doesn’t have a spouse or kids, and was also hired by Jane! It really hits my “so what’s wrong with ME? :(” buttons. It ends up feeling like it’s somehow purposeful and targeted, and I have moments of feeling like a rejected loser sitting alone in the cafeteria.

    I think the most helpful thing is going to be working on building up my relationships outside of work, and also remembering that these people have ZERO influence on my status at work. My boss, grand-boss, and great-grand-boss all think I’m doing a phenomenal job and seem to have appropriate workplace goodwill towards me. I got an outstanding annual review last month. And plenty of coworkers outside of our group/department are really friendly with me, too.

    Does anyone else deal with this? Even ‘knowing better’, and even knowing ways to help myself, it still is such a deeply upsetting feeling. Any other ideas on how to cope? (Or horror stories. Those are also interesting sometimes.)

    1. Havarti*

      Yes! Focus on relationships outside for work and hobbies. Do things that make you happy. Work is work and it sounds like the important folks are happy with you so you’re ok there. You don’t want to hang out with shallow, petty jerks and if that’s wrong, I don’t want to be right! Sally might be twisting herself into all sorts of shapes to make them accept her or she might be just a shallow, petty jerk. It hurts because you’re human and no one wants to feel left out. Just keep reminding yourself that socializing with piranhas would probably be more pleasant than hanging out with those people. You are awesome!

    2. Kathenus*

      I absolutely get how you’re feeling. I’m in an organization where the vast majority of people have spent their whole careers here and I came in from the outside. Definitely feel a ‘sitting at the kid’s table’ vibe a lot of the time and ascribed much of it to this. Then along comes another new person who seems to fit in seamlessly, so I feel your pain. I’ve realized this is part the culture here, but that some of it is my own issue, a bit of slight social awkwardness on my part, and not always feeling fully comfortable in my own skin which probably comes out. I’ve tried to focus on the people I have been connecting with and growing those relationships and focusing less on the people I don’t connect with so much. The change in perspective has helped, and I think it let’s me stop ‘trying so hard’ which could just make things worse. I empathize, good luck.

    3. Artemesia*

      Can you seek out people not in the clique to cultivate for lunch or whatever. Maybe ask Sally if she wants to grab lunch with you at an outside place tomorrow or whatever i.e. build your own group. You said they do this in front of everybody so that suggests there are others in your department you could take the initiative with for lunch etc. There is a big difference if there is a clique within a larger group and if there is a clique that only excludes one person. I got the impression at first it was the former; if it is the latter then it is a lot tougher. Are there people in other departments you could cultivate in the cafeteria? And as for dealing with them? They sound awful, like people you wouldn’t want to know. Cultivate your own internal disdain and self righteousness with regard to these losers — just don’t let it show beyond a hint of gentle amusement. The ‘anthropologist’ stance can help you frame it in your own head and find it amusing rather than diminishing.

  179. Pip*

    I have to decide if I want to apply for a higher up job in a different department this weekend. I think I’m not going to because I like where I currently am and who I work with, I know I have support here to do some extra study and because I feel like I could use a bit more time in my position to grow but it’s hard at the same time to let go of the idea to feel like I should apply and the ego boost of possibly getting a promotion. I think I’m making the right decision, but it feels a bit like a let down when I’ve been thinking about it so much but then the right decision is to change and do nothing lol.

  180. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

    Anyone have any creative ideas for light duty for an employee who can only use their non-dominant hand?

    1. Jadelyn*

      It really depends on what her regular job is and what kind of company it is. I’d assume computer use is involved, but that’s probably out if she’s one-handed for now. Phone duties? You can hold a receiver with your non-dominant hand, or use a headset or speakerphone. Filing takes two hands, unfortunately. Hmm.

      1. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

        Hmmm, actually we do have quite a few boxes we were saving up for a shredding service. But we do have a shredder we could use for that. Thank you!

        1. fposte*

          Ha, I’m delighted that might work! It’s an issue in my office right now, which is why I thought of it.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      My dad is a truck driver and had surgery on both wrists (separately) over the past 2 years. He had to take disability and didn’t have an opportunity for a light duty assignment. I can’t think of anything out of the distribution center that could be done in this scenario, that isn’t already part of someone’s regular job.

    4. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Is there any internet research that needs to be done that could be mostly mouse driven?

    5. Nanc*

      Take inventory–whatever kind, office supplies, cleaning supplies, break room supplies, tool bins.
      Safety audit–go around and check fire extinguisher expiration dates, are first aid kits stocked, cables and wires secured, etc.
      Any professional development they could do? Even if it’s just taking a computer course or seminar.
      Marketing research. Are you looking for new clients? They may be able to research company names and contacts.
      Light cleaning, dusting windowsills and surfaces, watering plants, straightening cupboards.
      Customer service. Can they help answer phones, return calls, deal with walk-ins, make copies, update logs?
      Recruiting? Could he help HR with job descriptions that might help them make better hires?
      Whatever you come up with, make sure there are good directions and cheat sheets. I’d say have him create them if they don’t exist but then you run into the non-dominant hand thingy!

    6. Engineer Girl*

      Review policies and procedures? As someone in the field he would have a great perspective on policies that do and don’t work.

  181. Jadelyn*

    Just gonna vent for a moment here – my manager has just asked me to train her on using our SurveyMonkey account FOR THE THIRD EFFING TIME! I’ve sat with her and run her through it twice already! And she just sent me an email asking if we can do it again! It’s because she barely takes notes, doesn’t actually *use* what I showed her, then six months later when she’s asked to do something with SM she can’t remember how to do it, and she comes back looking for yet another refresher on it.

    Like, sure, I definitely don’t have anything better to do with my time than to sit down and repeat the same exact training for a third time. Sounds great.

    ARGH!

    I’m going to make a tutorial and give her that after we do this next one. So she can just review that when she forgets again, rather than making me do the same training for the same person a fourth time.

    1. Lumen*

      Tutorial with screenshots and then next time she asks, refer her back to the tutorial. Because it sounds like she WILL ask.

      It’s also probably okay to say “I know we’ve gone over this previously. I need you to begin trying to find the answers on your own using Google or notes from previous trainings, because I have to focus on other things.”

      1. fposte*

        I think that language is fine if it’s a co-worker, but I wouldn’t go with “I need you to” with your manager.

        2. Jadelyn*

          Yeah I wouldn’t quite say it like that to my manager, lol. We’re a laid-back office and she’s generally pretty receptive to a certain amount of pushback on things, but that might be a bit much. I’d probably re-send her the tutorial next time with a note saying “can you review this and then just let me know if you have questions?” or something along those lines.

    2. Info Architect*

      I feel your pain! For people like this, your best best is to make *them* do the work while you instruct, instead of them watching you. Many times this helps the instructions “stick” better.

      Have your manager create a dummy survey WITH any documentation you have, and you can answer questions as she works. Good luck!

      1. Louise*

        Yes, this is what I was going to say! Ask her go through the process herself so you can see where she’s getting hung up, and then correct her as she goes. I know I’m a super kinesthetic learner and being in the driver’s seat when learning new software makes it a lot easier for me. Plus, it puts the burden of identifying what’s going wrong on her, not on you, and will naturally force her to be more engaged.

      2. Bibliovore*

        I actually feel for your manager. I know this sounds horrible but I have other gifts and if I couldn’t remember how to do something and had to have repeated training, the survey monkey talks would immediately become your other duties as assigned.

  182. Help*

    No one on my team knows what we’re supposed to be doing and our boss acts like it’s our job to figure it out. We have a manager who is married to one of the top people at the company, and it’s pretty clear that that’s why they’re the manager. We have no tasks given to us, or if we do it’ll be like ten minutes of work to take up the entire month.
    I’ve said “You know I’m really running low on work here, is there something else I can do/anyone I can help etc” or if I say “I don’t have much to do but I was thinking about doing x, y, or z with the downtime, what are your thoughts?” I get these very strong pushback like they’re extremely annoyed with me for bringing it up. We work in a skill field using software that’s constantly changing so most of the days I’m there I just do tutorials but honestly I don’t understand why they’re even paying me. It’s great that I have a salary but bored out of my gourd and my team is constantly checking in with each other going “Just to be clear…there’s NOTHING else that we’re supposed to be doing? Really??”

    Because of our company structure the only person we could bring this up to over our manager is the manager’s spouse.

    1. Jadelyn*

      This is a “your boss sucks and isn’t going to change” issue tbh – especially given the married couple dynamic at play. You have a terrible manager, with no recourse to the manager above her – the only thing you can really do, is either just accept that it’s like this and going to be like this for the foreseeable future, or start looking to get out and go elsewhere.

      1. Help*

        Yes as much as I hate admitting this, it’s likely the case:/ I just wish I felt I had other recourse to turn this around

  183. Corporate Credit Card*

    My company is pressuring me to get a corporate credit card. I’m wondering how this may affect my credit score, particularly if I leave the company and have to close the card. My credit score is good but I only have two credit cards, and only one of which I actually use. I don’t have immediate plans to leave my company, but would love not to be here in a year. I’ve asked my company about whether this will show up on my credit report, but they haven’t been able to answer this. (No one really seems concerned except for me.) The card would be in my name through our AMEX corporate account, and I would be responsible for paying the balance directly (company would reimburse). Any insight?

    1. Goya de la Mancha*

      That seems weird to me? But I don’t deal with this a lot. I just know that our department has a card that is under the company and my bosses name – and the bills are paid by the company monthly. My boss has to itemize the bills for which account codes everything should be paid out of, but the company does the physical paying part. I don’t think that my bosses credit is attached to it in any way.

    2. a Gen X manager*

      It will depend on whether they use the company’s tax id # / ein or your social security number in the card set up. Also, you’re VERY smart to be concerned about this!

    3. mreasy*

      If you are paying the balance, not the company, this is just a credit card in your name, I think? Corporate credit cards draw from the company account. I would push back against this!

    6. Thlayli*

      That is not s company credit card. That’s just a normal credit card. Why can’t you just use your existing card and have them reimburse you.

  184. Festive Terrarium*

    How do people really feel about team-building/ice-breakers at work? I hate hate hate them – but there must be someone out there who enjoys them, right? I was on a one-hour call yesterday during which the first 15 minutes consisted of an ice-breaker. Everyone on the call has been working together for years. Am I the world’s biggest grinch for hating this kind of thing? Is there really a business case for this stuff?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Why do you hate them?

      I don’t have super strong feelings about icebreakers, but I think they’re generally fun and useful only when pretty much everyone is into it, so there’s a culture element. I think that meetings in general are usually a waste of time because they’re very poorly facilitated, so often the icebreaker is the least annoying part of a meeting for me!

    3. Amber O.*

      I haven’t done icebreakers since college so I can’t speak for those, but I actually really like team-building! The way we do it with my department though is fairly inclusive. 2-3 times per year we cater lunch and block off a few hours of a Friday afternoon for whatever is planned. In the last year we’ve had a murder mystery party and a gingerbread house building contest. They’re usually set up to be group based and everyone gets a different group each time so they learn to work with others. Everyone gets paid for their time, and a few hours off from the drudgery of emails and data reports. We’ve never heard a complaint and people are free to sit out and keep working if they don’t want to/can’t come.

      1. Curious Cat*

        Those team building activities sound great! I’ve had to do some ice breakers at work where we pass a multi-colored beach ball around and whatever color you get you have to answer a question about yourself/give a fun fact… those types of team building I hate.

        1. Leela*

          I usually like team building activities but this sounds awkward and honestly, like the manager read an article by a self-proclaimed “team building guru” or some similarly branded person, and then they just implemented it without questioning.

          Knowing how someone functions and how they think, where their strengths/weaknesses are, how they create things etc (like in an escape room or ginger bread house building contest) help build a team. Creating relaxed, informal situations where we can get to know each other as people like in group lunch or something help build a team.
          Knowing that Kathy in accounting has three cats and two of them are orange because she had to say SOMETHING from the beach ball color doesn’t really help me know anything useful for team building, except now I feel obliged to remember this random fact in case her cats somehow come up in conversation later. I’m sorry this is how you’ve been experiencing it!

    4. Curious Cat*

      I strongly dislike ice breakers too. I hate being put on the spot and having to say something about myself (I feel like I always have to keep small facts about myself on hand at all times). I truly don’t see the point of them, surely there are other ways to introduce people to each other and find commonalities.

      1. Festive Terrarium*

        this is exactly my deal. I don’t like having to share something weird with my co-workers. It always feels a bit like I’m being bullied.

    5. Jennifer*

      I took a series of classes on this for work and socially, they are apparently mandatory for keeping people awake and refreshed enough to pay attention to your class.

    6. Ramona Flowers*

      I like icebreakers. But also you need to get people energised before launching into the actual thing so they do have purpose.

    7. Thlayli*

      Is this really a thing? How strange. I don’t know how I would feel. I loove talking about myself but most of my coworkers would hate it.

  185. Devil's Advocate*

    Anyone here a federal employee? I’m currently working for the USDA, but I incredibly frustrated with the new regulations that are being passed. We now have extremely restricted telework (one day a week vs. three) and the possibility of having to move our office. I love my job, but the dribbling of what is to come is driving me crazy–every few weeks we get more “news” (like a picture gradually loading). I’d rather know what the who picture is so that I can plan for my future. Any suggestions?

    1. Struck by Lightning*

      I’m a fed too but in DOI. Been contemplating hopping over to FS actually to get out from under Zinke. We still have our telework but there’s a ton of other bizarre stuff. The refrain in my office is mostly “we survived Watt, we’ll survive this” with a lot of “we went into this because we believe in it & we won’t let them destroy our parks without a fight”

      We spend some time at lunch every few weeks brainstorming what the administration’s best tactics would be if their goals are: 1) make the public hate even loved agencies like NPS, 2) maximize opportunities for donors to rake in cash, 3) transfer public lands to state & private management and 4) completely demoralize the employees so the best people leave making agencies as inefficient as possible. So far, that seems to pretty accurately predict what is coming next. But we can survive 4 years.

      1. BlueBloodMoon*

        Fed too. But in an agency relatively unscathed. I really only want to express my empathy…people ask how I am and I tell them I’m so fortunate to be working in an agency that isn’t under attack or led by a moron with no clue (or with a clue but intent on killing their own agency?!?).

        Please know, we think of our federal brethren and we hope that in 3 Years, *you* are still here. My agency depends upon the health of all the others … many of us believe in your work and underlying Agency integrity. And yes, we have survived a few ‘complicated’ Cabinet picks too, and they are gone and we still open our doors and do our work every day for those we serve.

        I hope you can see a way to stay. We need these agencies to be able to bounce when the regimen change happens – and I think it will – but only if the skilled and committed workforce is still there.

      2. BlueBloodMoon*

        Fed too. But in an agency relatively unscathed. I really only want to express my empathy…people ask how I am and I tell them I’m so fortunate to be working in an agency that isn’t under attack or led by a moron with no clue (or with a clue but intent on killing their own agency?!?).

        Please know, we think of our federal brethren and we hope that in 3 Years, *you* are still here. My agency depends upon the health of all the others … many of us believe in your work and underlying Agency integrity. And yes, we have survived a few ‘complicated’ Cabinet picks too, and they are gone and we still open our doors and do our work every day for those we serve.

        I hope you can stay. We need these agencies to be able to bounce when the regimen change happens – and I think it will – but only if the skilled and committed workforce is still there.

  186. Christmas Carol*

    I swear, the ad that just popped up on this this thread was from the Gecko Insurance Company with the slogan “Save money today, extra guac tomorrow.” Don’t anybody tell accounting about this, they might audit my travel expenses.

  187. some dress code advice for the men*

    If other people can tell whether or not you’re circumcised, your pants are not appropriate for the office.

    Thank you.

  188. AnxiousAmy*

    I am currently working at a job that I am not good at and my manager has tried to be helpful but I feel his patience has work thin and I don’t blame him at all. Today has been a particularly bad day. I believe the only reason I haven’t been let go is because we are short staffed.

    I want to have a meeting with my manager to discuss the situation. Would it be crazy to let him know during this meeting that I plan to leave and to ask for time to look for a job before he fires me or would it be better to just quit and look for a job. I recently bought an apartment but I do have enough saved to pay the mortgage for a few months.

    1. fposte*

      Well, you can start to look for a job right now without quitting *or* telling your manager, so do that for sure.

      But do you like your manager reasonably well, and do you know how this workplace deals with transitions? I think with a good manager it can work very well to say “I’m trying hard, but I think this job isn’t working the way either of us would want. Could we talk about a transition plan so I can prepare for somebody to take over and find something else that’s a better fit?” But it’s a risk, so think about your workplace before you try that route.

      1. AnxiousAmy*

        In regards to your first point, I have definitely started looking already. =)

        I do like my manager and I think he would be open to discussing my transition. I feel like it might actually be a relief for him to know that I am aware of my situation and that I plan to do something about it. I rather have that conversation then possibly be fired once our staffing situation is resolved.

        Thank you for your insight. I will take the weekend think it over though. I might just be in reaction mode now because I’m having a crappy day.

        1. fposte*

          I definitely think this is not a Friday afternoon decision. I hope you have a restorative weekend.

  189. ITChick*

    How and when did you talk to your boss about a semi-internal transfer? I applied an am going to the second round of interviews for a sort of sister organization of ours, an IT partnership where we contract resources from. It a job that was isn’t initially sure about but the more I think about it, the more I really want it. It would be a good career move into something I’m interested in and something I can grow and advance in, way more than the position I’m in now. But, I’d still be doing work for our organization and I’d have to work with all the same people I do now, including my boss, just in a slight different capacity. I really don’t want to burn this bridge, but I’m terrified of letting my boss know this is a possibility. If I don’t say something before it goes through and they offer me the job, I think he will take it far worse than if I bring it up to him before that.

  190. Icklebicklebits*

    How much do i owe my boss that I like? I said I would petsit for her in 2 months but an out of state job has opened up for me. I won’t know for another few weeks if I got it and there’s a chance as my boss she’ll be upset that I applied but maybe not. I don’t want to leave her hanging bc her pets are super high matienance

    1. fposte*

      You shouldn’t miss a job opportunity over petsitting. “Boss, I’m sorry, but it looks like I might need to be out of town then and I’ll have to cancel.”

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I’d just let her know something came up and you won’t be able to do it, the sooner the better. You don’t really owe her anything – but letting her know as soon as possible would be considerate.

    3. Engineer Girl*

      Let the boss know early so you don’t leave her in the lurch. Getting a pet sitter at the last minute is expensive.

    4. Thlayli*

      Tell her now that you might have to be out of state, that you can let her know for sure in a couple of weeks, but that you wanted to let her know in case you do have to cancel. Maybe come up with a plausible reason (e.g. Your cousins wedding is possibly gonna be on that weekend) in case she asks.

  191. Kath*

    There’s currently a big nerf battle going on in my office. It’s awesome, though I’m a little disappointed that nobody told me so I came to work unprepared.

    My office does things like this all the time. I absolutely love it and love working here. But when I tell friends and family about some of the things that I do at work I get lectures on professionalism and productivity and so on. Then it gets worse when they find out that much of my office is friends outside of work too and they hear about some of the stuff we get up to. Nobody else I know seems to work in an office like mine.

    Truthfully, I’ve never worked on a more motivated and high performing team, and I don’t think that this kind of thing should be an issue at all because it really doesn’t affect our work. We’re actually leaders in what we do! To the extent that we now If we can produce high quality work, have a nerf battle, and party after hours, why should it matter? I actually think that this atmosphere contributes to our success (and turnover rate here is super, super low!).

    So this has me wondering, what are people’s thoughts on mixing fun and work? Does this ever happen at your work? And how do I portray a professional image to my friends and family while still being honest about what I also do?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think if you like the nerf battles, then nerf on! Ignore the lectures. You know your team is different; you enjoy it and seem to fit into the culture; it’s none of their business. You also seem aware that this isn’t always the case in other organizations – so it’s not like you’re gonna show up at an interview with your nerf gun.

      Re: friends and family, I’d drastically reduce the amount of information you give them. Seems like they have Strong Opinions and there will be no swaying them, so the best option there is just to not give them anything to go on. If someone asks how your day was, you can just say “well we had a big meeting and it went well,” no need to add “and we also sprayed each other with silly string.” Keep it boring!

      Re: mixing work and fun, I have no issue with it as long as 1) everyone is on board 2) no one is ostracized for not wanting to engage or not “fit into the culture” 3) boundaries are respected 4) work gets done. The team I’m currently on definitely mixes fun in more than any other dept I was in, but we work hard and we respect each other.

    2. Colette*

      I think this kind of thing can be great, but it’s also a really good way to limit your team to people who like that kind of thing – which likely doesn’t include people with mobility disabilities, parents, people over 40, etc. – and that can be both legally problematic as well as limiting to your company (because you won’t build products that work for people who aren’t like you).

      1. Sarah*

        I know as a person who’s worked in a nerf gun environment and feels uncomfortable with that kind of thing (being in a space where nerf gun battles are happening makes my anxiety skyrocket and it’s far more difficult to focus), I felt pressured to go along with it at the risk of being the person who killed the fun.

        1. Colette*

          That’s the issue with this kind of thing – people won’t speak up if they don’t like it (if they think they’re the only one) and ultimately they end up leaving because they don’t fit in – and that can cause big problems, if the people you’re driving away are the ones who could otherwise give you perspective you’re missing.

          1. Kathleen_A*

            Exactly. I, for example, would try be a good sport but most of the time, I wouldn’t like this at all. I myself have been known to fly a paper airplane…but you know, just a couple of times a year, not as a regular thing. And I love far from the office, so after-hours partying is so not my thing. I would end up feeling really left out in an office where this was an expected and generally accepted thing.

            1. Kathleen_A*

              Oops – *live* far from the office, not *love* (although I guess in some ways, that’s true, too :-) ).

          2. Kath*

            I feel like I should clarify that it’s not an expected thing at all! There are people who choose not to participate, although the majority do, and I’ve never seen anyone be ostracized for it. They’re actually pretty good about accommodating everyone here I find. I definitely see where this kind of thing could start causing issues though.

            That said, part of the reason I left a prior job was because they took themselves way too seriously and I couldn’t even make small talk. I hated the culture and felt like I couldn’t speak out against it. So I get this entirely. I guess the key is balance.

            1. Kathleen_A*

              Yes, balance is extremely important. So is having a nerf-free zone – or whatever wackiness X percent of staff enjoys-free zone. Because even if there’s no pressure to join, I would not enjoy being surrounded by a nerf battle that I could not or did not want to participate in. If there you are with a headache or a deadline or grumpiness or childcare woes or introversion or whatever, a nerf battle in the vicinity, be it ever so optional, is A Very Bad Thing. :-)

    3. Weyrwoman*

      My office regularly has nerf battles – and sometimes the fun spreads to nearby departments!

      And honestly, if your external friends and family can’t understand that it’s part of your office culture (“I understand that in a regular office this wouldn’t be okay, but it’s perfectly normal at CurrentJob, so I’d appreciate it if you stopped criticising my professionalism”), I’d just stop mentioning it around them.

  192. Darth Brooks*

    At my job we have a program that rewards superior achievements. Things like creating efficient programs, saving the department money, and/or going above and beyond your job in a special way. It’s fairly uncommon, but someone in an adjacent team did just earn one about 6 months ago.

    I’ve completed such a project. It took many months of work, benefits the entire department, saves time and money, eliminates human error, and it’s not my job to create these systems. On top of this project which I initiated, I also completed my own workload and was promoted to team lead.

    I’ve asked my boss to recommend me for this award because he’s generally not great at supporting the team or standing up for us, and I have reason to believe he never would have done it on his own.

    He still hasn’t responded to my request, and I’m wondering if I should prepare myself to approach another manager who has benefited from this project. It’s really a huge accomplishment and I’m wondering how far is appropriate to push.

    1. Engineer Girl*

      Yes approach the other manager! Ask the manager if they’d be willing to support your manager for the nomination. That leaves your manager as the owner, but gives a little peer pressure from manager #2.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      It might be worth asking if you can just nominate yourself for this award. If I were in your shoes, I’d at least ask about that. It shouldn’t matter how you came to the award committee’s attention, just that they consider the project you worked on and its beneficial outcome(s).

  193. The Senior Wrangler*

    Take the train, I said. It’ll be fun, I said.
    I have started to get a few paid singing gigs in the past year or so (yay!) and am waiting for one to start any time now…
    This involved a three hour train journey, which, as it turns out, included delays, getting lost and missed trains, for a 40 minute set for £25 expenses…
    But I enjoy it and am hopefully going to meet some schoolfriends in the city tomorrow so should be an overall success.

    1. LCL*

      May I recommend a song I always suggest when the topic of playing for money comes up? Search for ‘I Hate Music by the Hillbilly Hellcats.’ You will fall out laughing. Good luck on the gig.

  194. Kramerica Industries*

    Speaking of personal grooming, is it weird to use blotting papers (to control oil) at your desk?

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Officially, probably yes. Following the “don’t do personal hygiene stuff at your desk” rule. Bathroom would be fine though.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I have only done this in my private office with my chair turned so I face the back. You can get away with some discreet, hunched-over blotting, but nothing extensive.

    3. Amber O.*

      I’ve done this at my desk before, but it was done quickly and discreetly with my back turned to the opening of my cube so no one could see me.

  195. Long time listener, anon caller for this*

    My boss and members of our team have been bullied by an administrator for several months, since we were transferred to her department. There’s evidence that my boss was targeted because of his membership in some protected classes. The administrator does things like berate him publicly and tell him he’s paid too much and is “stealing from the company”. He has a meeting with an EEOC investigator on Tuesday. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what to do next? Any advice?

  196. agmat*

    Just want to throw my annoyance out into the void…

    I am in a regulatory position and might have to get a warrant to collect some paperwork from an entity. I’ve not had to do this before. I’m also in my third trimester of pregnancy and am a total worrywart that the person will become violent. I am bringing someone else with me, but still…this is just not going well and I wish they would just hand over the paperwork that they are required to provide.

    1. Environmental Gone Public Health*

      As a health dept. employee who has the unfortunate job of deeming homes unfit for habitation….I feel ya. Good luck! Definitely bring someone with you. I carry a MagLite during my inspections. Never let anyone get between you and the exit. If you feel unsafe at all, leave. Just leave. It’s not worth it. You can always come back with police.

      1. agmat*

        I am fairly sure they aren’t going to let us in the door to begin with, but I do know they have dogs (based at home business). Good idea on the MagLite.

        My coworker will definitely take the lead if necessary. He has more experience with situations like this and I am not trying to prove anything. I want to get my job done, for sure, but I will leave if I have to.

        1. Environmental Gone Public Health*

          The dogs make it interesting. We usually require during inspections for all animals to be penned up securely. If they can’t get it done right then, we schedule a time to return when the animals are secured. If they still won’t do it, then we involve police. Probably 95% of the time, they’re okay with putting the animals away, since they don’t want to risk further charges or the animals being removed forcibly.

          I had a coworker that didn’t ever want to leave an inspection if it was unsafe. Drove me nuts, and put her in very bad situations that were completely unnecessary. We walked into a home at one point where there were 5 or 6 rifles and pistols on the kitchen table right next to where the guy was sitting, as he was picking them up and moving them around, and we knew this guy had a violence-related criminal history. I wanted to nope right the heck out, but she wanted to stay. She had seniority, and we came in one vehicle. One of the most needlessly tense inspections I’ve ever been on.

  197. Lavender Gooms*

    I desperately need some advice. I think I’m in danger of being fired from my job for health reasons. Some background: Almost a year ago I got a non-flu/cold viral illness of some kind (sore throat, cough, fever, chills, etc.) and it ended up really screwing up my body. I began passing out, having chest pain, being unable to stand for long periods, all sorts of scary stuff. I went on leave twice, once for six weeks and once for three. I’m still not better, though. I can’t stand for long periods still–I start to get really hot but don’t sweat, tremble, and feel lightheaded–and sometimes it feels like I’m walking through syrup. Doctors think it’s some form of autonomic dysfunction, but I haven’t been able to treat it with anything except for salt pills and excessive water consumption. I’ve always passed out from needles/blood since I was a teenager (I’m 25 now), but now if I see or think of anything even mildly upsetting–stuff that a year ago wouldn’t have bothered me–I start to feel woozy. Even if I don’t see something upsetting, there’s a chance that I’ll get lightheaded just from being in an environment that’s too hot or standing for too long. I’ve almost passed out while driving, sitting at my desk, whenever. I usually throw myself to the floor whenever I get the warning signs (graying vision, nausea). I can go for weeks or even months avoiding any “weird spells” but a cold or other virus can knock me right back to where I was before.

    My managers were initially really understanding back when they thought it was a passing health concern. Now they’re losing their patience. Today I laid down on the floor AS A LAST RESORT because applied tension wasn’t working, and the warning signs weren’t going away. My direct manager became really, really upset with me and told me I was being a distraction and I needed to go home. I began to cry quietly because not only can I not control my body, which is embarrassing enough, but I felt like I was being punished for trying to avoid fainting at work. She knows that I have trouble with hypotension and vasovagal episodes. The spell passed after only a few minutes and once I was able to sit up I called my husband and he came to get me.

    I don’t know what to do. I work in HR but my team definitely looks down on people who request accommodations or take intermittent leave. I’m so tired. I want to get better and I don’t want to be fired, but I’m losing hope. Any advice you could give me would be so, so appreciated.

    1. Lavender Gooms*

      Let me add that I am recovering from a cold, and I think that’s why today was worse than usual. This is the first time I’ve had to lay down at work.

    2. fposte*

      Safari ate my long response, so I’ll try to be shorter:

      Assuming you’re in the U.S.: They can look down on you for taking legally protected leave, or they can look down on you for lying on the floor. One way you get to be at home and you have some job protections. Isn’t that option better? Go in Monday and file a request for intermittent FMLA.

      But you mention you have a spouse–would your household be financially okay if you didn’t do this job right now? Because if you could make it work financially, not working right now sounds like it might be a good thing for you; it’s tough to manage these nonspecific post-viral syndromes and the stress really isn’t helping. It’s no fun to be fired, but it’s not a personal failure if your health isn’t up to it.

      Good luck and feel better.

    3. Book Lover*

      Sounds like your doctors think you have POTS? You need to request accommodations – I believe that would give you legal recourse if they retaliated against you or fired you.

  198. KayEss*

    So as per usual, my job search is turning up responses only from the jobs I applied to that… I don’t really want. One in particular that I applied to despite general feelings of “meh” called me back and wants to go straight to an in-person interview, which I agreed to. Then I started looking deeper into the company and oh boy, do I viscerally not want to work there. I give it a 95% chance it would be exactly like my last hell-job, which brought me to the point of intrusive fantasies about killing myself in the office. I’m already having anxiety attacks based on that and the interview isn’t until Tuesday.

    Part of me wants to cancel the interview, but it would be good practice when I haven’t interviewed in over a year… and I’m also struggling with the usual “but what if this is the best I can get?” feelings. I applied for a really great job that’s a bit of a stretch last night, but I doubt I’ll ever hear back.

    1. Overeducated*

      Whoa. Normally I’d say “always go to an interview, it never hurts, you can always be open to changing your mind,” but given that you see strong similarities to a situation that brought on extreme intrusive fantasies, instead I say just don’t put yourself in that situation. I’ve been in the situation of getting an offer for a job I don’t really want, and it’s harder to turn it down than it is to not get the offer in the first place, so if you want to cancel to avoid that, go for it.

      1. CM*

        Agreed, it’s not worth the anxiety attacks! Let it go. If you want practice, ask a friend to roleplay with you.

      2. Effie, who is at the end of her rope*

        Yeah, it’s better to prepare for an interview for a job you actually want to get. I think preparing for an interview for a job you don’t want doesn’t really help with your interviewing technique. And you might subconsciously sabotage yourself which would also be bad practice for interviewing. Plus then if they reject you for the job it might give you a shame spiral of “I can’t even get a crappy job :( :( :(“

  199. LAI*

    Oh my gosh. Is there somewhere where you could have more privacy if this kind of thing happens but is temporary? I had a terrible migraine last week and didn’t think I could safely drive myself home, so I lay down on the floor in my office until I felt better. But I have a private office with a door that I can lock. I don’t know anything else about this subject but just from being a regular reader of this blog, I suspect the answer may be getting a doctor’s note and invoking official accommodations…

    2. Lavender Gooms*

      I’m in a cubicle farm, unfortunately (albeit with tall walls). And usually I’m not able to stand up when I start getting the warning signs–that could bring on the faint even faster. We’re about to get new furniture in a few weeks and convert to an open floor plan, so there will be even less privacy. I’m at a Fortune 500 company.

  200. Sparkly Librarian*

    Here’s a bit of a giggle to share (I’m choosing to laugh rather than despair):

    I had a conference call earlier this week, with about half a dozen other librarians. The host set it up, emailed us all a number to call and a passcode to enter. This is… standard, yes? I gathered it doesn’t happen as often here (this library system) as face-to-face meetings. More than one participant commented on the “new technology” we were using and about how they’d had an easy time connecting, “even though they weren’t a techie”. I felt compelled to point out that I considered voice-only conference calls pretty “old-school”… I have this visual stock photo (which I did not share with the group) of businesspeople in ’80s gear sitting around a table and yelling into a phone speaker to someone(s) in another country/office. I didn’t even get into how much the meeting would have benefited from a screenshare (join.me, gotomeeting, etc.). I don’t think we’re all ready for that leap.

    1. Just Peachy*

      Haha that’s hilarious! I love the mental image of the businesspeople in ’80s gear around a table. :)

      I’m 3 years post college, and don’t think I’ve ever been in a conference call that was voice only. There is ALWAYS a screenshare!

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        There are very, very rare instances where this occurs, and generally it’s because it’s faster to talk than type between my departmentmates — the majority of whom are remote employees. I feel like a typing test should be part of the screening process though because watching the “Fergus is typing” and waiting 5 minutes for a 7 word sentence to appear is excruciating.

      2. Overeducated*

        That’s funny, in my office we only use screen share if we want to share documents or software processes, never to actually show our faces. My coworkers would be horrified by the thought. They aren’t intimidated by the software, they just don’t want people watching them through webcams!

        1. Sparkly Librarian*

          I feel the same way about webcams! I always disable mine if I can get away with it. It’s just that this meeting was discussing website usability, and we really needed to SEE the page and where the leader was clicking and what the tools looked like in admin mode, etc.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Ha, that’s pretty funny. But maybe this will become outlier technology, and most people will be nervous about dialing a phone. My 13-year-old would not remember having a home phone, or a phone with buttons.

    3. beanie beans*

      We like to throw our hands in the air and say “Technology!” every time even the most minor (and not very technological) thing proves to be difficult. Phones, coffee pots, dry erase boards. It makes me laugh.

  201. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

    I would say definitely go to the interview. There is that 5% chance that it might be just what you want. If it’s not, at the very least, you will have gotten the experience of an interview.

    2. KayEss*

      Yeah, I mean, they’re probably not going to trap me there and force me into the job. Probably.

      I think I’m partly nervous about contacting them afterwards to remove myself from consideration, but I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it.

  202. Office Pooper*

    Hey guys, I’m sure some of you remember me. Despite the fact that I use the work bathroom for number 2 business, they have seen fit to give me a $2 an hour raise! I almost want to go take a victory poop right now!

    4. nep*

      Let’s all take a victory poop in OP’s honour.
      Congratulations! And even in spite of your BIZARRE bathroom habits — i.e. using the toilet for its proper purpose.
      Enjoy.

      1. Office Pooper*

        Yes I did! I ended up putting my big bottle of it in the bathroom for all to use. Although some poopers seem to prefer their own odor over that of the Poopori judging by the stench I encounter on occasion. But hey, to each his own, right? If you want to bask in the glory who am I to stop you!

  203. Effie, who is at the end of her rope*

    Any dance/yoga teachers here? I need advice about dealing with a student with whom I’m at BEC mode to the point that I’d be willing to fire her as a student so that I don’t have to deal with her anymore (currently not an option as I don’t have that ability; the studio owner does), even though it would mean losing a lot of money.

    Background: after returning to teaching at my home studio 7 months ago, Student became my first regular student. She signs up for all my classes. Over time she became very relaxed around me, to the point that more than once I’ve had to say while teaching something along the lines of “I’m the one teaching this class.” Somehow along the way Student got the impression that we’re really close friends and that she runs my classes. I’ve been successfully reestablishing professional boundaries with her so I think I’m experiencing an extinction burst. She constantly gives me attitude and complains and it’s gotten way worse (she started doing this around when she thought we were really good friends and that I cared what she thought about what I teach. I really don’t. I’m a damn good instructor and I know what I’m doing. Yes, I care that my students are learning; no, I don’t care that you think my combination would be better if we add three steps before we do a turn). The last time she took class with me, she signed up for 2 classes in a row. The first one was ok, she was a bit pissy that she didn’t get “her spot” in class (it’s first come first serve, she’s just been very fortunate over the years) but less attitude than normal. The second class, I took the spot she wanted and she got in my face (I don’t always teaching facing the same way since we have mirrors all around the room so I’ll move the class direction depending on how many students and what angle I want them to be at so the mirrors are used most effectively). I moved the class along, but I’m seriously annoyed. That was the worst I’ve felt after teaching a class. The studio owner is aware of the situation. How can I stay professional? How do I get into my happy dance teacher headspace when I’m dealing with this? Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

    I don’t let her pull me into any arguments, I don’t debate with her about the merits of different combos, I’m quite good at reestablishing authority. I do get annoyed/mad/frustrated easily internally with her when she’s in my classes.

    1. AMT*

      It sounds like you’re handling it right so far (especially based on the seeming blowback you’re getting from her), but do you get the sense that the studio owner might be receptive to being approached again about firing her? Were you explicit about actually wanting to fire her as a student as opposed to just making the owner aware of the situation? Can you frame it to the studio owner as something like, “It’s affecting the other students’ experience, so I really do need to ask you to let me fire her”? Is there a compromise available, like having her take classes with a different instructor?

      1. Effie, who is at the end of her rope*

        The studio owner and I are on good terms. After these last two classes I spoke with the studio owner again (I’ve been keeping her in the loop) and said “it makes me literally want to fire her as a student”. The studio owner commiserated.

        The thing is, we’ve never fired a student before. We’ve come close with another boundary-pushing student (who was WORSE than my student) but in the end she pulled back so we didn’t need to. They both spend a TON of money at our studio. And since I’ve been keeping professional boundaries strong I think this is really just an extinction burst so just looking for strategies to ride it out (and venting, this is a good space for that).

        There are no other instructors who teach what I teach. We each have our own specialty classes. She likes my classes since she’s had tons of injuries and so have I so I’m really good at modifying my classes/combos for injuries and my students get strengthening and conditioning exercises they don’t in other classes (to the point that Student and her friend think that my classes are “easy” which FLAMES. FLAMES ON THE SIDE OF MY FACE. THEY’RE “EASY” BECAUSE I’M A GOOD INSTRUCTOR. Bitch you wouldn’t be able to handle a real class!)

        Thanks for reading :)

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Hmm, well if she’s making the class really unpleasant for other students, then the studio owner may end up losing money if something isn’t done. People may not want to come back for more classes. It’s very much like good employees quitting when managers don’t do something about problem coworkers.

          1. Effie, who is at the end of her rope*

            Thanks, that is a very good point. We haven’t gotten any complaints but people could vote with their feet (and money). If the extinction burst doesn’t end I’ll talk more with the studio owner.

            I still teach other students to their full capacity. My classes are open level and I’m good at teaching and modifying to everyone’s level. But apparently Student thinks it’s “easy”. I’ve tried challenging her and she just gives up.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      So far as the spot thing goes, I know how everyone gets comfortable in their own position and so on, and it seems like you’re doing well rotating things. If she prefers the front to the back, run through a combination a few times, then make the rows swap. Suggest to Student’s parents (hopefully she’s not an adult and acting like this?) that she could benefit from a variety of teachers/styles and Clara’s class meets at the same time, so her schedule wouldn’t truly change.

  204. Alakazam*

    Does anyone else get unreasonably nervous when their boss asks to speak with them?

    I got back from lunch with an email from a coworker saying, “Boss called for you, he wants you to call him when you get back from lunch.” My heart was pounding when I called him, only to find out he just wanted a quick answer about a printer setting. He’s never called me for anything serious, and most of our calls are 30 seconds long, but I still get so nervous!

    For context, I have received nothing but praise from this boss (he’s fairly new). He constantly compliments my work, jokes around with me from time to time, and is really supportive and values my opinion. So, I basically have no reason to fear him wanting to talk to me, but I can’t stop myself!

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Yep, I still do that, and I have a great boss. It’s just ingrained in me from years of people-pleasing, bad bosses, and a general fear of conflict. It’s getting better though since I started my current job.

    4. Kathleen_A*

      I have been in the workforce a long time, but I do get usually a bit nervous when I get one of those “Boss wants you to call him/her” messages. And that seems to have been the case no matter which boss it’s been: the laid-back one, the basically-OK-but-slightly-touchy one, the boss who wasn’t really interested in supervising anybody at all, the one I’d known for years before he became my boss, etc. It’s very odd.

    5. Weyrwoman*

      Omg yes. I had a grandboss message me asking to be able to call my cell and I had a major freak out moment as a result. Turns out it was just an info-pass-along about a Teapot Purchased making a stink on social media.

    7. Engineer Girl*

      Every.single.time.

      It doesn’t matter how many performance awards, kudos etc. I still think I’m going to be reprimanded.

  205. Phillipa Lanthropy*

    Hey I’m OP 3 from this letter https://www.askamanager.org/2017/09/employer-stole-the-work-sample-i-created-for-an-interview-coworker-uses-an-offensive-word-and-more.html

    Roughly a month after the letter got published I was able to get a new job and thankfully I don’t work with any micromanagers and so far has been a great.

    I have two questions regarding my current job
    1. Is it rude to not give responses when coworkers are entering and exiting the building? The context is, I occasionally cover the reception desk and when others are entering and exiting the building they’ll make general statements or jokes as they pass by. I’m not sure if I should respond to them or not. Usually, I stay quiet but at least non verbally acknowledge them. When they make jokes its a little more complicated since it takes me a bit to process and/or understand and have a delayed reaction with awkward laughter. Should I be doing something differently or, is this just part of adjusting and getting used to a completely different work atmosphere than my previous job.

    2. Any advice on how to get other employees to stop going to my coworker (who used to have my current position) to try and get me to do task they want done immediately? Such that “Jane” will have a non urgent request for me. I give her a timeframe, usually its something that can be completed same day, and Jane says thats perfectly fine. No more than 5minutes later my coworker “Norma” will tell me that Jane just asked her to help me with her request. When I talk about it with Norma it seems like Jane (and a few others) frame it as if I don’t know what to do so that Norma can “help” me do it right then and there.

    1. CM*

      #1. If they say something to you, it’s OK to nonverbally acknowledge them but better to say something back — just “hi” or “bye” or “have a nice day” or something should be fine. Unless it’s constant, then just smiling or waving is probably fine.

      #2. Does this happen with certain people? If so, when Jane asks you and you say you can do it later that day, you could add, “Can you let me know if you ask someone else to do it instead? That way I won’t still have it on my to-do list.”

    2. Havarti*

      1. I usually default to smiling and sometimes waving. If they say something and I didn’t quite catch it, I just laugh a bit and let it go.

      2. We need to wean Jane from summoning Norma. How does Norma feel about being used like this? If she dislikes it, ask her to tell Jane that she (Norma) no longer works in that position so Jane will need to talk to you (Phillipa) and redirect her back to you. But if Norma doesn’t mind or doesn’t understand, when she shows up, just tell her you already spoke to Jane, already agreed on a deadline of later today as you are working on something else right now and Norma is free to return to her desk. If she offers to return later, politely thank her for the offer but you can handle it solo. If it doesn’t stop, you may need your boss to step in.

  206. Forking Great Username*

    How do you get a thicker skin when it comes to criticism at work? I’ve always thought that I was good at taking constructive criticism, but student teaching is a little bit different since there is someone whose job is literally to watch everything I do and nitpick my every move. I’m overall doing a great job and had been told that by my cooperating teacher, but of course there are always things you can improve on, and it’s starting to emotionally affect me that it’s just constant criticism throughout the day – every single hour it’s “that’s still not loud enough/you should have organized XYZ differently/stop the talking faster/be bossier/you don’t need to tell them X/repeat the instructions more often…just constant criticism. And I know that’s their job. I’m trying to reframe it in my head as opportunities to grow and improve because I know that’s what it is. But it’s still really wears on me to constantly hear all of the ways that I need to improve for eight hours every day.

    1. Havarti*

      Oh man, that sounds tough. That would wear me down into the ground too. I think criticism should be balanced with things you are doing well but I don’t know if there’s some way you could ask for that. Like concrete examples of awesomeness, not just “you’re doing a great job overall.” But I don’t have experience in teaching.

    2. Woodswoman*

      I’ve worked as an educator, including mentoring others. I would find what you’re describing unnerving while I’m trying to teach. Can you talk with your cooperating teacher and ask for a single feedback session at the end of the day instead of feedback all day long? It sounds like you’re getting positive feedback as well as suggestions of what to change, and hopefully this would balance that better while not having you constantly on edge during the teaching day.

  207. A.N.O.N.*

    How long is reasonable to take off for a honeymoon?

    I have tons of PTO, and fiance is a teacher so he has the entire summer free. I’ve told him that the max I can reasonably take off in a given period is two weeks. He thinks that I’m being too conservative and if I have the vacation days, I should be able to take more.

    For reference, I don’t think I can think of anyone in my office who’s taken more than 2 consecutive weeks off, including for honeymoons. Even though we have a generous time off policy, taking time off means someone else in the office has to cover.

    Thoughts? Am I being too conservative or is this standard practice?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      More than 2 weeks would be unusual in my office (and past offices), but I have had a handful of coworkers save up PTO for a 3- or 4- week vacation to visit family overseas. That’s the exception, though, and I think it would look weird to take it off to hang out at home after your honeymoon trip. (If you wanted to do something along those lines, people taking every Friday off or 4 weeks spread out is probably doable in my office.) I think a 3-week epic honeymoon abroad could be requested in the right circumstances.

    2. Forking Great Username*

      Depends on the office, but everywhere that I’ve work out I strongly agree with you about the two weeks thing. Something else to keep in mind is that you may end up meeting a day or two off for your wedding just when you’re getting all of the final preparations taken care of, so it can really ends up being a bit more than two weeks. I would think your fiancé would understand since there’s no way he would allowed to be taking that much time off during the school year (I’m assuming anyways – that’s how all the districts in my area work.)

    3. Overworked and Underpaid*

      I would say it depends on company policy. I have generous PTO allowances as well, but I can “only” take it in minimum increments of 4 hours and maximum increments of 2 weeks. I would say that two weeks in a row is pretty standard practice.

    4. The Person from the Resume*

      IMO 2 weeks is at the high end of reasonable. I’ve never done it, but a honeymoon is worth it the two weeks. Beyond that it getting a long time to have someone fill in for you, and possibly a lot for you to catch up on.

      Obviously role and position do impact this a lot.

    5. Lynca*

      Honestly it’s reasonable to ask about it. Even though I know I can take a month vacation (and have) I still officially come to my supervisor and talk it out first.

      1. beanie beans*

        This is what I would recommend also. If you want to take 3 weeks, talk to your supervisor and see if it would be approved – a honeymoon certainly seems like a reasonable time to make exceptions to the norms!

        And I don’t think there’s any reason to limit yourself to 2 weeks if it’s not a clear policy. If that’s what you want, no harm in asking!

        Of course, if you’d rather not spend it all on one trip, that’s up to you – decide what you want first!

    6. A.N.O.N.*

      Thank you everyone! It sounds like 2 weeks really is the standard max, so I’ll let fiance know that I really can’t exceed that.

      So question for the heavy travelers out there:

      If you want to go somewhere with significant travel time, like Southeast Asia, where you generally want a minimum of 2 weeks there, how/when do you do it? The travel bug in me now worries that I won’t be able to travel to far-off places until I retire…many, many years from now…

      1. Anon For This*

        Some of it really depends on where you and where you are going. For example, I went to Australia a couple years ago, and I found a flight that left pretty late in the evening so that i could work the same day. That meant with the time change I arrived on a Sunday. And I got almost two full weeks before I left.

        You can do it if you are careful about planning when you fly, and you might have to be willing to pay a little extra to get on those flights. I think you also have to be careful of how you budget your time at your destination and realize that you aren’t going to be able to see and do everything.

    7. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I would say typically 2 weeks is the max. I do know of some people who take more, but their are either very senior, or they were doing something like visiting family overseas (one coworker takes all of July off to visit her family in Turkey once a year, but she has been here a very long time and is a director). I don’t think you’re being too conservative.

    8. Millennial Lawyer*

      Definitely ask if you could do more than 2 weeks for your honeymoon! At my office its normal for people to do 2 and a half if they have the days. It’s your honeymoon, not any ordinary vacation. You could probably even do 3 weeks. If they say no, then at least you have 2!

    9. soupmonger*

      Are you in the US? Because that makes a difference :)
      I’m in the U.K., and got married while in a management position. I took a 4 week honeymoon and also a week off prior to that. I asked my upward chain and it was approved with no problems. It took a LOT of work to achieve, but well worth it.

    10. Espeon*

      Congratulations! I’m in the UK, and I’m taking three weeks off for my wedding and honeymoon, no problem at all.

  208. AnonForThis*

    Does anyone have advice for dealing with an incomplete degree on a resume? I ran out of money for tuition about 75 percent of the way through university, but what I did complete is still relevant to jobs I’m applying to. I worry that not handling this properly on my resume is keeping me from landing interviews.

    1. Weyrwoman*

      You could try listing skills you picked up as result of the coursework? And maybe mention in your cover letter that you intend to complete the degree in the future?

    2. Millennial Lawyer*

      For now I would put “completed significant coursework in X” and even expand on your courses. There should be examples of this.

      Do you intend on finishing? Because you can note that you didn’t finish for financial reasons but are saving up to continue your studies. That might stop people from assuming that it wasn’t just because you gave up or something like that.

    3. GriefBacon*

      So I do have a B.A., but decided I needed to go back and get a second B.A. because reasons (dumb ones). I was working full-time while going to school full-time and ended up getting laid off in April when I supposed to graduate in December. I knew I wasn’t going to be able to find a full-time job that would work with my school schedule, so I had to withdraw from school and moved cross-country for a new job. (And then realized that, actually, my internships in the field I was studying were terrible and I didn’t want to do that, so it made no sense to spend the money to transfer and finish my degree elsewhere).

      But, the second degree was a much more practical/marketable major, so I list it as “Bachelor of Arts in progress, year-year — Major”. I’ve also listed relevant coursework when it’s applicable.

    4. nep*

      I put: Coursework in SUBJECT MA program, XYZ University…

      If it’s fairly recent (mine is not), you could expand on it in the cover letter if you think there are some good selling points in what you did accomplish. Otherwise I think I’d just put something like that and address it if it comes up later.

      1. AnonForThis*

        Best part is that fits on one line, which is basically all the space I can afford for this. Thanks!

    5. Elizabeth West*

      I put it in my cover letter for jobs it’s relevant to, something like this:

      In addition to a BS in Teapots, in 2012, I began a professional Coffee program at XYZU in City. Although I was unable to finish it due to financial constraints, I did gain knowledge that helped me at Exjob and enabled me to complete an editing project for the Coffee Documentation department. You can view the latte art style guide in my portfolio; the link is on my resume as well as this letter.

      It’s something I actually used at work, and it’s the only thing I have to show from Exjob, since most of it consisted of confidential client reports.

  209. Stranger than fiction*

    So, anyone watching Corporate on Comedy channel? I’ve been watching an episode on my lunch break all week, and somehow I’m not as angry in the afternoons now.
    (Much like when reading this site sometimes I’m reminded it could be so much worse.)

  210. Story Nurse*

    I just want to thank everyone who stays home when they have the flu. I know it’s not possible for some people and some jobs, but I’m really grateful to everyone who’s reducing the risk for my toddler by reducing the risk that one of us adults will bring the bug home from the office or catch it from a commuter or a shop clerk.

    1. Alton*

      Yes! I agree. It’s a shame it’s not possible for more people. I work on a college campus, so it’s hard to avoid this stuff. Sadly, I unknowingly picked up the flu and gave it to a relative who has health problems, and now said relative has chronic breathing issues that require treatment. I feel terrible about it even though I did everything I could.

  211. MLB*

    Does anyone know of any resources for legitimate work from home jobs (typing or data entry, not anything involving customer service or phone calls)? My husband and I are trying to get our debt paid off as quickly as possible and I have free time for a part time job. But anything I did outside of home wouldn’t pay enough to make it worth it.

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      I know people that work from home for Cox Automotive and Apple. The former is an accoumt management type role and the latter is customer service.

    3. Story Nurse*

      If you’re a fast, accurate typist and can hear well, I recommend looking into medical transcription. It pays pretty well and involves almost no human interaction or phone calls, though you are listening to recordings of people talking.

  212. S. Ninja*

    So, anyone have irrational fear of applying to jobs? I’m trying to figure out a way to overcome it so I can finally get better work, but I think it’s a combination of fear of rejection, general depression, and not really knowing what I’d do if I were actually called in for an interview. Help?

    1. 2015Royals*

      I tend to over think it when looking at jobs. I probably don’t apply for as many as I should, while I have friend and co-workers who apply for everything.

    2. nep*

      This describes me exactly.
      And yet I know that my current situation is absolutely unsustainable so I must go through the steps of applying. I find it impossible to envision landing one of these jobs I’m applying for (which I think would change if I would get some kind of positive feedback…a phone screen…anything…).
      I really don’t think that doubt is coming across in my letters — I am pretty happy with cover letters I write.
      One thing that helps me is to look up websites of inspiring people I admire in my field of choice. Not at all comparing myself to them…just as a way to steep in some positive talk about the skills, the work. I learn some valuable things and it helps keep me motivated.
      I hear you. I wish you all the best.

  213. 2015Royals*

    I apologize in advance if I ramble and jump around. I am not sure how to talk to my manager about promotions. Supervisors and managers at our company are more “workload” managers than they are “people”. Managers and supervisors are always off the floor, meeting about God only knows what. 1-on-1 meetings are almost always canceled, and the “Goals” we put into the system are always vague and generic so there is no real development plan. This is a switch from me because I have always been a goal oriented and ambitious person who seeks feedback.

    Our company is rather large and is very lacking in the way of documented processes. About a year and a half ago our VP actually gave his guidelines for “how to get promoted”, acknowledging that there is no actual process. My manager, recently promoted from supervisor, and I discussed promotions and such shortly after I started in this position because I made it known I am not the type of person to just and do the same thing for 5-10 years. She made the comment that it would be easy for me to promote at my 1 year because I was already met all the minimum requirements for my position. Promotions are done twice a year and there are 3 of us that came in around the same time. At our one year with the group only one of us was promoted (there is no limit on how many people can be promoted) and it was explained that yes while he was a 2 he was really doing 3 level work. Another promotion cycle went by and neither one of us still at 2 were promoted, and there were no conversations. We had 2 level 3 positions vacated, and rather than promoting the two of us from 2 to 3 and then back fill 2’s, they posted the level 3 positions and filled from external. I’m not sure how to bring this up with my manager. My function is more technical than business, and she isn’t a fan that this function is on her team. She has zero understanding of what or how I do my job, and when I have sought out feedback to make sure I am doing things in a way that she prefers her response is “whatever you are doing is working so keep doing that”.

    Suggestions? I feel like my manager is clueless.

    1. ExcelJedi*

      Is there a way you can take your manager aside when you see her. I know I’d be able to say, “Hey, I know our last one-on-one was cancelled, but I really want to talk to you. Can w chat now, or can we put something on the calendar for this week?” It really sounds like you need to pin her down and have a conversation – specifically one where you can solicit feedback and make your goals known.

      Overall, though, this place sounds pretty dysfunctional. Is it a good culture fit for you otherwise? I’d probably start looking for a new job, given your description of this one.

      1. 2015Royals*

        The culture is extremely dysfunctional. There is a lot of work that is created just to have work in my opinion. I fit well with our IT partner, but not really with the group I am in because my function doesn’t really affect them. My manager is new to the whole “leadership” thing as she was only a supervisor for a year and half before being promoted to manager. Our director actually said “we didn’t want to lose her to another group”, which in my opinion is never a good reason to promote someone. She never really has any feedback, all she cares about is different metric views on how things are completed.

  214. Get Me Out of Here*

    I’m struggling with finding ways to stay engaged and be at least somewhat successful in a situation that feels hopeless. The company I work for is in dire financial straits. We just came through a re-org that was completely political – all of the people who were demoted or fired had been previously targeted by one (awful) VP for completely personal reasons, and actions were finally taken against them in the name of cost cutting. Really good people, and in many cases, really good performers, were fired or demoted in the process, and morale was completely destroyed among everyone left behind. Everyone I’ve spoken to is job searching, and we receive “Fergus Smith has submitted his resignation” emails almost once a day. People are leaving in droves. My department went from 9 people to 3, and management has given zero direction on how to transition the work – the 3 of us left behind are picking up the pieces on our own. The management team is delusional at best and tyrannical at worst. I have no confidence that they will right the ship or that they have any clear vision for the future. I’m not even sure they can keep the company afloat for another year.

    I have 2 major, visible projects with hard deadlines that I now have to pull off with zero support and 1/3 of the resources. The remaining resources are angry, unmotivated, and may be gone in the middle of my project timelines.

    Obviously I’m job hunting aggressively. But what I’m expected to achieve in the next 6-9 months is laughable. If my projects fail, there is no doubt it will reflect poorly on me. My mental health is suffering. I’m lethargic and depressed when I’m here, and each day brings more depressing/discouraging news. I’m struggling to do anything but stare at my phone or the computer screen. This is not my personality at all. I’m a high performer, normally very upbeat, and a problem solver.

    I would love to hear some suggestions on how to pull it together, do my best, and remain employed until I can get out of here. Any words of wisdom would be appreciated!

    1. Havarti*

      Oh that’s just terrible. When you say “remain employed” does that mean you don’t have a financial cushion if you just quit right now? The reason I’m asking is because you also said your mental health is suffering. Those deadlines are not likely going to be met even if you stay those 6-9 months if everyone else is bailing or angry. For the sake of your sanity, I feel like you just need to get out right now. But if that’s not possible, can you meet with your boss on what can be realistically done on the projects? I mean, it’s rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic but maybe that would relieve some of the pressure you’re feeling? Or just mentally check out and collect a check until they throw you out? Though I would suggest trying to save aggressively and cut down on expenses if you haven’t already. Any cash cushion is better than none.

      1. Get Me Out of Here*

        Thanks so much for the reply! Unfortunately, leaving without another job isn’t an option. My husband and I are working on building a cushion, just because things are so unstable. I have thought about laying it all out for my boss and telling her to pick the priorities. I think right now, the management team is ignoring anything that isn’t a squeaky wheel, so maybe I need to make more noise! :)

    2. Thlayli*

      There is absolutely no way they will fire you! They would be shooting themselves in the foot big time.

      Once you realise that (and let it sink in) remember they need you as much as you need them. You have power.

      Bring your list of tasks to your boss and tell her the priority order you think they are in and ask her to confirm. Then tell her you are willing to spend x hours a week (and if x is your contracted hours that’s fine) and this is how much you expect to get done in the next week and ask does that change the priority. If she starts yelling Stay firm and remember she can’t afford to lose you.

      1. Get Me Out of Here*

        Thanks for replying! I’ve definitely thought about the fact that I’m holding some power. One of my projects is achieving a certification that the company needs by a specific deadline, and it’s required by our customers. Right now I’m the only person in the company with the right training/expertise, and hiring someone else and bringing them up to speed in time would be rough! That does give me a level of peace, but I’ve seen this management team make some very unreasonable decisions lately, so no one feels totally safe.

  215. EddieSherbert*

    Late to the party today but, good news! I got an unprompted 10% raise this week! *happy kick your heels up type dance*

    I didn’t ask for a raise this year because it’s notoriously hard to get raises at my company (a lot of hoops to usually end up with like 3% raise), plus manager and I butted heads on a couple things semi-recently, and the company overall was down in profits for 2017. So it was a really awesome surprise!

  216. beanie beans*

    I think the letter earlier this week turned my humor into something twisted. I want to respond sarcastically to everyone’s questions and rants with “At least you don’t have cancer?” Yes, including the first one.

    2. Thlayli*

      I must have an evil sense of humour because that hilarious. Op of the first comment, if you’re reading – cheer up, at least you don’t have cancer!

  217. Joanne*

    I just returned a phone call from a recruiter from a contracting company that seems to be based in India. They require everything below before starting and going through the email the recruiter sent, is full of errors. For example, “Experience with Rational preferred Some experience in business, information technology, or a related field, is required along with 0-2 years of experience in technical writing or in a related area.” To me, it seems like a scam since “rational” and “some” shouldn’t be capitalized, and candidates shouldn’t have to reveal their visa status or any other identifiable information to the recruiter via phone or email.
    Here’s what the recruiter wanted from me:
    Full Legal Name:
    Best number and time to reach:
    Email ID:
    Visa Status:
    Date of Birth (MM/DD):
    Current Location (City, State & Zip code):
    Willing to relocate (Yes/No):
    Current Rate you making on W2:
    Expected Rate on W2:
    Availability to Start:
    Any Offers or Interview in hand (Yes/No):

    What does everyone else think?

    1. Future Analyst*

      Uh, yeah: I’d pass. If you really do want to interview, supply your name and contact info, along with city, state, and willingness to relocate. The rest is definitely none of their business at this stage.

      1. Joanne*

        That was my feeling as well, and the emails the recruiters sent all went into my Spam box too. I’m a bit wary about them as well, because when I did some research on them the building itself is in a very remote location and there are a lot of contracting companies here in the DC Metro area.

    2. CAA*

      Rational is the name of a suite of software products that’s currently owned by IBM and it is properly capitalized. There’s a period missing after the word “preferred”, which is a pretty minor typo. Also, in the U.S. it’s totally normal to reveal your visa status right up front. Many, if not most, employers are not going to interview anyone who refuses to say whether they have a right to work in the U.S. without visa sponsorship, so of course the recruiter needs to know this.

      The questions that do concern me are “Date of Birth” and “Current Rate you making on W2”. Revealing date of birth can lead to age discrimination, and current salary is an illegal question in some states.

      1. Fake Eleanor*

        “Visa status” is an odd prompt when you could just ask “Are you legally authorized to work in the US?” But I attribute that less to malice than unfamiliarity with social nuance in the US.

        1. Joanne*

          I’ve always seen “Are you legally authorized to work in the US” rather than “visa status” on every job application I’ve filled out.

          1. CAA*

            Yes, me too, but in the context of a contracting firm based in India that’s almost certainly employing visa or green card holders, I think it’s just a lack of knowing what to ask and how to frame it appropriately.

            Given the new limitations on H-1B visas and requirements being placed on (or at least talked about for) H-1B Dependent employers, these companies need to start hiring a lot of Americans if they want to stay in business; so I think we’re going to see more and more of this sort of thing and there are going to be some growing pains as they learn about some labor laws that they’ve been able to skirt around in the past.

            1. Joanne*

              I’m surprised that a contracting company based in India would be recruiting for a U.S. federal agency though.
              My understanding is that federal jobs are posted to USAJOBS rather than sent out to contracting companies, and if it is sent out then it would be American contracting companies, rather than ones based in India.

  218. CheerfulPM*

    Any suggestions on handling knee-jerk “NO” reactions? Sometimes when I make suggestions to our director, he’ll form a very quick opinion and just says no based on preconceived biases. Today I threw out a suggestion to evaluate if a certain big software platform might have a solution for us, since we might be able to get it at little to no cost. I was met with an immediate While that ultimately might be true, this company has a whole range of software products in their solution set beyond their most commonly used one.

    1. Havarti*

      In general how does your director act after the “no” reaction? Does he stand by it until death or can he be reasoned with some time later? Does he bend if you provide addition information on why you made a suggestion? Sometimes I’ve been successful changing someone’s mind but it meant going to battle prepared with all the printouts and without an audience for the person to perform in front of.

      1. CheerfulPM*

        If you collect a lot of data the director can definitely be reasoned with. In this case though, it feels like I’m being shut down for even suggesting that we do some digging and get an understanding of the offering – for no other reason than a perception of the software a decade ago.

        1. Havarti*

          What if you did the digging anyway and brought back the info? Beg for forgiveness instead of asking for permission, so to speak.

          1. CheerfulPM*

            Oh, that’s definitely an option of course, but in this case the digging would be a lot easier by contacts that the director has. I think I’m mostly annoyed that it was such a strong reaction where the director seems to be questioning my judgement for even suggesting it.

  219. Anonymous Ampersand*

    I’ll find out next week whether my job has been put back into the structure or whether I’m screwed.

    I’m also dealing with a pretty bad spike in my depression right now.

    I have too much on my plate right now.

    (Formerly purple snowdrop)

    1. Havarti*

      It does sound like you’re dealing with a lot. Pamper yourself this weekend if you can. A relaxing soak, a good book or movie, yummy food – whatever floats your boat. Then figure out what’s the worst case scenario (“screwed”) and then what you can do to mitigate it (update resume, look up some temp agencies or something). You got this. Good luck!

    2. Effie, who is at the end of her rope*

      So sorry to hear.

      Sometimes I hide under the bed for a few minutes, then I feel better after. Could you find an unreachable (for others) place for a few minutes? Putting my face in a towel (hot is really nice, but any clean towel will do) works too.

      1. Anonymous Ampersand*

        Funnily enough I’ve been fantasising about hiding behind the sofa (or hiding under my desk in work, but I decided to hide in a meeting room instead). I will do that later. I think it’ll help.

        1. Effie, who is at the end of her rope*

          I hid under my desk once! I took a really long time to plug something in. It helped.

          Hope you feel better today!

  220. Daycare Mom*

    I really dislike my current job. Got hired for another one that I think I would like a lot more, but the shift (2nd) wasn’t ideal for daycare and there was no such thing as weekends and Holidays. My current job is at a daycare center, which allows me to see my daughter throughout the day. They’ve also been very understanding with unpaid time off for her recent illness. Ultimately I decided to stay at the job I dislike in order to spend more time with my daughter and hold out for a 1st shift job, which would greatly increase the availability of quality daycare options.

    I let the new company know and now I feel very sad about the finality of it; that that job offer is gone for good and probably won’t be available in the future since I initially accepted the offer and then rescinded. Does this sadness mean I made the wrong decision?

    1. ContentWrangler*

      I don’t think your sadness necessarily means you made the wrong decision. You had two options, neither of which were perfect, and it’s normal to feel a bit of loss when you have to give up one thing for another. The reasons why you made your decision haven’t changed and you just have to remind yourself of that.

      It’s possible, if you’re like me, that your sadness is also a bit of guilt for accepting the offer and rescinding. No one likes to think that they’ve let people down or that people will think worse of them.

      Just focus on finding a job that balances your needs.

    2. Overeducated*

      I don’t think so. I made a similar decision a few years ago, turning down a great job opportunity because it was not compatible with my family’s needs at the time. I am still sad about it sometimes given the direction my career has gone instead (and that a friend got the job after I turned it down so I get updates on what could have been!), but I don’t think it was the wrong decision. I think it just means things don’t always line up in the right way at exactly the right time. A few months earlier or a year later would made things entirely different.

  221. Epsilon Delta*

    Sigh. My productive hours are 8 AM – 10 AM and 4 PM – 7 PM. I am pretty much useless in between. Sometimes I wish that I was single/childless again so that I could actually get stuff done then! Right now my schedule is 9 – 5, which is kind of the worst of both worlds – I lose most of my morning productivity with getting set up/meetings, then I am a blob for a few hours, then I start to do stuff around 4 and then it’s time to go home.

    When are your most productive hours?

    1. Weyrwoman*

      I used to work 8-5, but then we had someone leave from the 11-8 shift and I volunteered and holy hells my productivity has gone up. I’m definitely a 12p-6p type, which was really confusing to me at first because I’d always thought of myself as a morning person.

    2. Been There, Done That*

      I’m a total nightowl and have been literally since I was born (please don’t get my mom going about about the misery she went through trying to get me to sleep at night!) Best shift I ever had was a 3-11pm. When I was working on a special project, my manager let me work 1pm to 11pm so I could have meetings with other staff then work on my intense project after everyone left for the day. It was AWESOME!!!!

      I’m working 8-4:30 now and I feel like my brain doesn’t really engage until after dinner in the evenings. We’re not supposed to, but I have a tendency to work on things from home for an hour or two before bed if it’s something I know requires some serious critical thinking and attention to detail.

  222. Erika22*

    This is semi-related to the cultural differences thread earlier in the week, but does anyone have an idea of how hiring managers perceive foreign applicants who are legally able to work in that country (so not a foreign applicant who would need visa sponsorship, just someone who has not worked in that country before aside from an internship a decade ago)? Specifically how they’d view someone from the US applying to positions in the U.K. I’m not physically located there yet, but even once I have an NHS number/permanent address, will seeing my work history based in the US be a mark against me due to the added burden of a cultural learning curve, or will it not matter?

    1. CAA*

      I can’t speak for UK interviewers, but it’s never been a problem for me in the U.S. to hire foreign workers who don’t need visa sponsorship, and I’ve done it many times. Sometimes they’ve had no U.S. work experience, sometimes they’ve had internships or work-study type jobs at a U.S. college.

    2. Thlayli*

      Mention in the cover letter that you already have a NI number (NHS number irrelevant for employer), and what your timeline for moving would be. Other than that I don’t see why it would be an issue at all.

    3. Bagpuss*

      It wouldn’t be an issue for me, (as a UK employer). We do have to check for all employees that they have the appropriate right to work in this country.
      Obviously there may be individual managers or companies that may have concerns, but I wouldn’t assume that it would automatically be an issue.

  223. AnnaleighUK*

    Question regarding LinkedIn etiquette – I don’t use it very much so I honestly have no idea how to do this.

    I have a third level connection with someone who I’d love to work with. Is it creepy/weird/rude to say ‘ohai, I see we are connected by Fergus Wibbleton who also knows Jane Flibble, let’s connect because I have X coming up and I think you would be perfect for the project’ (obviously without the ohai).

    I’m just a bit cagey about approaching someone I don’t know online, but if they see we’re connected by Fergus and Jane, should that make them think ‘ah, she isn’t some weird creeper’ especially as I’ve been endorsed by Fergus. We could use someone with this particular skill set but I’m a bit hesitant to reach out!

    1. H.C.*

      At third level I would really approach it as if you two don’t know each other (esp since you don’t know how strong those other LinkedIn connections are). You could mention you found that person through mutual LinkedIn connections, but that’s about the extent of it.

  224. nep*

    I saw an ad the other day for a job I think would be quite a good fit for me; I’d like to apply. It was not clear in the description whether it’s on-site or remote. (It’s a field in which both are common.) I sent a note asking whether it’s remote, using the email address for applications/resumes. Was that a stupid move? Would you have done so if the answer determined whether you’d apply or not? I’ve not heard back to my question and I’m thinking it was a turn-off in some way.
    Overthinking, anyway…

    1. nep*

      Well I screwed up. Looking at the ad again today and I see the words ‘virtual setting’. Was that there before?? I should have copied and pasted the ad when I first saw it. But I might have missed that. In which case I won’t bother applying because now I look like a non-detail-oriented jerk emailing them to ask whether it’s a remote position.
      Next…

      1. nep*

        Yes, another conversation w myself…but just for the record — After thinking this through I realise the phrase ‘virtual setting’ was *not* in the ad when I first read it; I now clearly recall the words that were in its place.
        So the company revised the ad. Not sure whether they saw my initial inquiry but in any case, at least it wasn’t a case of a stupid oversight on my part.
        OK — done.

      1. nep*

        Thanks.
        I’ve got this block now, given that they didn’t respond to my email question. But that’s silly, and no harm in applying.

  225. Samantha*

    I’m planning to quit my retail job. It’s the first job I’ve ever had and I’m hoping you guys can give me some advice on the proper procedure for resigning. I’m part time and my boss is pretty much never there at the same time I am. I’ve been there over a year and knew the old manager pretty well but she moved, and the current manager has only been there for a few months. I’ve only met her 2-3 times and it wasn’t very interactive, just in passing. How do you resign when the person you’d typically need to notify isn’t around and isn’t someone you have any sort of rapport with?

    We don’t really use email to communicate – she has one but I’ve only seen it used for the hiring process. Scheduling requests and that sort of thing are all done by writing it down in a binder that’s kept up at the front desk. If you need something outside of that, sometimes people text her but that doesn’t seem appropriate for a resignation. The phone seems like a bad option too because I’d be calling the main store number rather than a line directly to her, and therefore could call in the middle of a rush or when she’s not there/available.

    I feel like email is the best option since it ensures she’ll see it at a time that is best for her and I can avoid interrupting during a rush. Alternatively, could I just write a simple resignation letter with my end date and give it to whoever is working the front desk to pass along to her? I’ve never quit a job before and I’m pretty nervous since I don’t want to burn any bridges or come across as uncaring.

    1. H.C.*

      I would do the email and the hand-deliver letter (if you can’t come to store when she’s working, then yeah – have a colleague pass the letter to her.) And follow up with text if you didn’t receive an acknowledgment or reply after a few days (just so you two are on the same page about your last day & any offboard tasks you need to do before then.)

  226. EAB*

    I’m job-hunting and am getting really close to having what I hope will be two offers. This is super exciting, but the sad thing is leaving my team at a time of great turmoil for the company. My direct reports all know I’m interviewing, but my indirect reports don’t really yet. I have two questions:

    1) Managers, how have you told your teams you’re leaving without throwing your company too far under the bus? Practically everyone on my team of ~20, direct and indirect, is scrambling to get out too, but I want to give optimism and encouragement to ease the transition for the few who aren’t ready to leave yet.

    2) I have a final interview across the country on Monday, so will be out Mon and Tues. I don’t want to lie and say I’m sick if possible, but my VP is not likely to allow two consecutive unplanned PTO days for anything short of the plague. I was thinking of having a “sudden and unexpected family event which requires travel” on Saturday. A job is technically an event concerning my family if you squint at it, right? I don’t care if they are suspicious but want to stop short of saying “I have an interview on the West Coast”, just in case neither offer comes through. Anyone have good scripts?

  227. Peeved Ex-Boss*

    I’m a manager at a non-profit social service agency. I’ve had many people leave the job over my tenure and it’s never been a significant issue. But this week was the last day for one of my staff and I was highly dismayed to find after she left that she had not done a number of important work tasks. I had specifically asked her if she had completed them and she lied to my face, stating that she had. What makes it more annoying is that she had me sign off on a number of professional papers related to his professional licensure this week before she left. If I had known she was purposefully misleading me, I likely wouldn’t have signed the papers. I totally understand that it’s my responsibility at the end of the day to double-check work and I failed to do that. But I have always found that I could trust people when asked a direct question up until know. My question is…Should I email her letting her know I am aware and that I am very disappointed? I can’t make her do the work now and it wouldn’t accomplish anything other than making me feel some satisfaction in her knowing it didn’t slip my notice and hopefully feeling a bit guilty. What do you think? Pointless gesture or an important lesson I should attempt to teach her? Thank in advance for anyone’s thoughts.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      If she’s planning to use you as a reference, I would think about telling her you will be unable to provide a good one based on the way she left that job. Other than that… I’m not sure it would do much good.

    2. Thlayli*

      She’s burned her bridge and if she needs a reference from you in the future, she will get her comeuppance then.

    3. Bagpuss*

      Do you have any reporting responsibilities to the licencing body? I mean, would the reason you wouldn’t have signed the forms that it was a favour and you wouldn’t have wanted to do her that favour, or were you being asked to sign off on her fitness to practice / integrity etc and you now feel that your answers were not correct?

      If it is the latter, the consider whether you need to tell your professional body. Otherwise, it’s up to you, although I personally would leave it unless and until she asks you for a reference, and at that point you can let her know that you are not willing to provide one (or that if you do you would have to be honest)

  228. Cats and Dogs*

    I’m late to the party today, but hopefully there are some night readers who may sympathize with my plight. I wrote a couple of weeks ago about how I’m temporarily running my department after 1 boss quit and another went on maternity leave. (Both bosses were in my direct reporting chain, with me reporting to the one that quit, and the quitter reporting to the one on maternity leave. Anyway, I’ve been tasked to “lead” my other two colleagues, who are absolutely my peers. For the most part it has not been fun, there have been stressful moments in regard to others. But, today, I was in the fortunate position of pissing off both my colleagues with one work assignment. Colleague 1 is working on an assignment that is challenging. In hindsight, I perhaps should have taken ownership of it, but I didn’t and it felt wrong to take it from her after she worked on it. But as things got complicated, I stepped in to assist and also notified our department head, which I told my colleague I would do. She apparently got upset with me because I didn’t cc her on the email. Which I understand, but I would appreciate a little understanding and slack as I don’t normally run the department. Colleague 1 and I typically get along, though she sometimes will give me an “attitude” (for lack of a better word) if I do something she disagrees with. Colleague 2 was upset with me because Colleague 1 and I did not involve her in a discussion about the assignment because there is a peripheral part of the assignment that touches on an area she’s familiar with. (She overhead us talking about it, though didn’t approach us. I got a passive aggressive email later) The reason we didn’t involve her is because the person who actually runs the area she’s familiar with was already involved in the assignment, which I explained. To which she didn’t respond.

    I’m willing to flag some of my own mistakes in this situation and own them. But, am I wrong to ask for a little slack from my colleagues here? I’m not technically in charge, I’m just bailing the ship while we right ourselves. We’re all overworked and tired and cranky, but we all need to be nice to each other!

    1. Thlayli*

      Why on earth is your company not hiring a temp to help you through this? Unless they are paying her full salary while she is off they can afford it.

      That sounds so stressful. I think you are all stressed out and overworked by your company’s refusal to hire any temporary help, so I think you should all cut each other some slack. Try not to take it personally, they are stressed too.

  229. Introverted introvert*

    I just started a newly created position and have been there for 5 month. I work with one other woman, “Lisa.” Lisa is nice and funny, but she was in the department by herself for 10 years, so I don’t think she’s used to having someone else to work with. She encourages me to apply to other positions when I mentioned a position at another place. There is an open position in another department and she told me that I should apply since it might “pay more.”
    She is older than me and seems to get along with the other older women who work there, but that shouldn’t mean that she doesn’t like me because I’m younger. She always compliments the intern that works with us, but the intern doesn’t even have a high school diploma (I’m working on my PhD.)

    My friends and family tell me that she might feel threatened, but I don’t know how to make her feel less threatened. Any thoughts?

    1. Temperance*

      You probably can’t make her feel less threatened, if that’s what her issue is. You’re younger and presumably have more education than she does.

      If your intern is in high school, she’s not a threat to Lisa’s position.

    2. A*

      Possibly a dumb question, but are you sure that she dislikes you/feels threatened? Maybe she’s just thinking that you’re interested in those positions you’re mentioning.

      As for complimenting the intern but not you, some people might be more likely to give compliments to coworkers in junior positions.

      If she does feel threatened, I agree with Temperance — not a lot you can do.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah I don’t see why you are even mentioning other positions if you don’t want to apply to them? If someone was talking to me about Job openings I would assume they were interested in them, and I would be supportive of their decision to apply unless I thought it was a really bad idea. I’m sure she’s just trying to be nice and supportive.

        At this stage since you’ve brought up other jobs so often, she’s probably convinced you hate working there and are desperate to move on anyway, so the only way to get her to stop “supporting” your job search would be to tell her you’ve changed your mind and are happy where you are.

        1. Introverted introvert*

          True, but it’s just conversation about people leaving and the position is open. She usually brings it up, not me. She usually brings up job searching, not me.

  230. KayEss*

    Oh, thought of another weird issue I encountered that I’d appreciate insight on!

    I found a brand-new job listing I’m interested in on LinkedIn, posted by a recruiting agency but (for once) listing the actual employer as well. The problem is that when I try to apply on the recruiting agency’s site, it… doesn’t work, and in a very weird way. Their “apply” link goes to a page of generic results on a totally different job search board, and while I managed to locate the posting there, the “apply” link on THAT then went to generic results on yet ANOTHER search board. I decided to cut out the (now seemingly kind of sketchy) middleman and went straight to the employer’s website, but the position isn’t listed among their open jobs.

    I found the internal HR recruiter for the company on LinkedIn, and am debating sending him a message like “I’m really interested in this position and would like to apply but this weird thing is going on, how should I proceed” but I decided to wait a couple days and see if it either gets fixed or the position shows up on the employer’s site. Thoughts?

    1. atexit8*

      I see no problem with reaching out to the internal HR person and asking whether there is a direct link to the position.

      That’s what I would do.

      If they have decided to only go through a recruiter, the internal HR should be able to provide you with a contact email or telephone number.

    2. EAB*

      I work with ATS software, and I can take a good guess: the person who originally posted the job just screwed up the entry of the apply URL when copying-and-pasting it into the job distributor. I see this a lot, and it’s a lot more likely to be human error in a complex posting process than sketchiness.

      I would definitely DM the internal recruiter and/or use any “apply to our Talent Network” links you might see on their career site, but be aware that if they messed up the apply URL, it’s very possible that they posted in error or took it down later. I wouldn’t expect that the recruiter would be upset about a single LinkedIn DM, though I would do *one* DM only and not email them directly. If you don’t hear back, move on. Good luck!

    3. Casuan*

      You have a legitimate concern about a questionable link & I’d even question the recruiter’s credentials. No reasonable person will be upset if you verified the link.

      To me, this is the online equivalent of a company calling me for sensitive information; for me to comply I need to return the call via a telephone number that I know or can discover myself. It’s extremely rare that I get chastised for this.

  231. atexit8*

    I am struggling with my resume.

    For reasons I won’t get into, I want to make a career change into an administrative assistant type of position.
    But I don’t know how to phrase this in my resume.

    I have a college degree.
    Unfortunately, I am 50+ which makes this type of jump harder to explain.
    I have even thought about saying that I was early retired and now seeking “other” work.

    Any ideas?

    1. nep*

      I would certainly address that in the cover letter, not in the resume. In the letter you could write something like: ‘After x years in abc industry, I am now looking to work in xyz…’ You could expand on it a bit if you want to put a line as to why, but I don’t think you need to go on about it. Focus should be on whatever skills you’ve developed that will be useful in the new type of position.

    2. Thlayli*

      I did this! I am a chartered mechanical
      Engineer in my mid thirties (at the time) and for personal reasons working full time didn’t make sense, I knew there was no way I could do my usual work part time, and I needed a pay cheque even a tiny one each week to qualify for government benefits I needed. I was a stay at home mother and I went to a temp agency that had a part time position advertised, gave them a cv (resume) that went into detail on the experience I had that would be relevant to office admin work and also listed as one-liners my engineering experience, and told the lady I was bored at home but not ready to go back full time and just wanted something easy to get me out of the house one day a week. She accepted that story and I got a few short term part tim me jobs out of it.

      If you tell them you are early retired and just want something relatively easy to get you out of the house, they are likely to believe that.

      1. Thlayli*

        And yeah, I think it was in the cover letter email that I basically said the above, not in the cv itself.

  232. nep*

    Anyone here ever work at PETA? I have looked at some reviews online — Just interested in what anyone here with PETA experience has to say about working with them.
    I’m not currently applying there. Have in the past.

  233. Scared*

    A coworker confided in me that she hates our new boss and wants to get rid of her. She feels betrayed by our boss and doesn’t want to work with her anymore and doesn’t trust her anymore. She has confided this to other people on our team as well. I know the specifics and I disagree with my coworker, but I know what she feels like because when our new boss first joined, I felt like that too. I felt left out and ignored and I think that’s where this mistrust is coming from.

    However, I also think that bad mouthing the boss without any intention of fixing the situation is just wrong. I’ve talked to coworkers about our boss too but only to figure out how I can fix the situation, since I’m only in control of my own actions.

    I believe our boss can fix this. And I believe she should be made aware of this situation. If for no other reason than knowing that this coworker is spreading doubt and mistrust amongst the team in our boss. I want to tell our boss this. But without any specifics. Just that this coworker has an issue with her and has talked to others about it. And can she please figure out how to fix it.

    Would I be wrong to do this

    1. Thlayli*

      I dunno about “wrong” but you’re certainly opening yourself up to a lot of retaliation from your coworker, for very little gain that I can see.

      Personally I try to stay out of workplace politics as much as possible, and try to maintain a cordial relationship with everyone, and not get into “he said, she said” unless it affects work directly.

    2. Observer*

      Right or wrong is not really the issue. The issue is what do you really expect to happen?

      Your coworker is complaining. By itself it doesn’t sound great, but not a big deal. If you think she’s going to try to sabotage something, then it IS a big deal and you need to bring it to your boss. If you think she’s likely to lie about things, yes, bring it to your boss. She starts complaining so much about your boss that it derails conversations, bring it to your boss. I could give more scenarios, but I think you get the point – If this is something that is likely to have an actual concrete effect, you need to let your boss know.

      Otherwise, I don’t see any point. Either she’s complain so much that people are going to tune her out and / or the boss will realize that something is up and deal with it. Or she’ll stop complaining and just simmer internally, in which case it’s just not your problem.

  234. The New Wanderer*

    I just received a rejection notice today (for my application, didn’t get to the interview stage) from a big company. It included an advertisement of sorts for some kind of “private network of companies” called Stella that helps with recruiting. Has anyone heard of this?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        There was the Jan 15 letter about a rejection notice offering a discount for resume writing services, but this was for a recruiting service and I wanted to ask if people were familiar with that service.

        Anyway, I read up on it – it’s an AI service (there are multiple AI services now) that is supposed to fast track applications with smarter filters or something. Free to job hunters, member companies pay fees for the service. I signed up, will post if anything interesting happens.

  235. Cute Li'l UFO*

    With some hours behind me I feel like that interview went pretty well. It was a technical interview over video which I was kind of like “I don’t know why I thought this was just talk and screenshare but here’s a video component”

    I always get dressed for interviews (in person and otherwise) because feeling ready is part of feeling capable for me. I had a large box of blinds sitting behind me so I was like “I apologize–I’m in the midst of reinstalling some blinds”

    We were supposed to meet for 45 minutes and ended up meeting for twice that. He asked that I show some solutions, walk thru the process of what I did, in regards to resolving some navigation things. There were some other aspects but a lot of it was about process and handling those problems. Definitely a more technical interview than anything but because myself and my interviewer had time after the original slot we were able to go more in-depth and go for more questions.

    guess we’ll see if things move on!

    1. Bacon pancakes*

      Congratulations on making it work! I would be encouraged that you were able to spend the extra time, that at least signals that they were interested in continuing beyond the expected/intro questions.

  236. Wrench Turner*

    Just a whine here. I’m a white guy with very long hair -long past my shoulders- and I have to cut it for a new job. I’ve been growing it out for 4+ years and only cut it for very deeply personal reasons. It’s clean and neat (I shower every morning, needed or not) and long hair is an actual safety risk at my current job (HVAC tech) but nobody cares. If I was a woman with long hair, or an African American man with neat twists or dreads, this wouldn’t be an issue. But no, if I want this gig, and I do, I have to cut it.

    It’s not the first time; I cut it for the Army, for a role on stage, for an early corporate job or two, and (except for the Army) each time felt dirty and violated, like I had lost autonomy over my own body. I hate it. I hate it so much.

    In the grand scheme of workplace things, this is small. People face actual gender and racial discrimination that affects them in real, meaningful ways that I likely never will. Still hate it. Being this beautiful has never affected my very high professional standards.

    1. Panda Bandit*

      Is this new job one temporary step along your career path or is it more of a long term thing?

      My sympathies. I’m very much into metal and I hate how people tend to think only short hair is professional or respectable.

      1. Wrench Turner*

        I’m still in negotiations but if the income projections are what I think they are it leapfrogs several steps in what I want to do and getting someone else to pay for certifications/training will save me many, many thousands. It’s worth it, as they say.

      1. Wrench Turner*

        Nope. From what I understand, long hair women do what they want as long as it’s neat and safe. There are some hazards, but minor compared to what I do now.

        1. Engineer Girl*

          This is gender based discrimination.
          If it is safe for the woman it is safe for you. If this requirement is only based on safety then I don’t see how they can force you to cut your hair.
          If, on the other side, there is a customer appearance component then you may be stuck.

    3. Anono-me*

      I’m sorry that you need to make this sacrifice for a career opportunity.

      Is there a way to give this haircut some additional meaning? 1.Think of the difference you can make with either with the new position or the increased wages. 2. Donate your cut hair to a wig charity. 3. Have your hair cut by a student stylist in a very experimental style for an exam or a competition first. Then get the short and conservative cut.

      1. Wrench Turner*

        I’m trying to look at it like casting a spell. The long term results will be worth the sacrifice now.
        Fire burn and cauldron bubble, etc.

    4. Thlayli*

      I’m sorry you’re going through that. If they wouldn’t force a woman in your role to cut her hair, then they legally can’t force you to, as far as I know. So if you still feel cutting it is the best option, maybe you can focus on why that is, and remind yourself of those reasons. And take before/After photos. Maybe do a shave your head for cancer thing or something so you feel better about it?

      1. ZarinC*

        This is going to sound weird, but it might be a solution. My brother-in-law faced a similar situation: he loved his long hair and had been growing it out for quite awhile, but he needed the job that had a “dress code” that required short hair. So he got a wig. He tied up his hair in a bun and wore a short hair wig over it. It was an acceptable solution for everyone, since he could go back to his normal look evenings and weekends.

        Eventually he got used to looking at himself with short hair and cut it, after wearing the wig for maybe a year or so. But it was not traumatic at all at that point and it was his choice.

        1. Wrench Turner*

          My hair is way, way too long and thick to fit under a wig. When it’s down I have a mane like the Disney Beast from Beauty and The. Is what it is, and like I said, it’s just a whine.

    5. Millenial Lawyer*

      Can you ask if you can wear a “man bun”? It’s a perfectly mainstream style and you can have it neatly secured.

  237. Clever anonymous name*

    I’d like to ask for feedback from my manager who resigned this week, but I’m not sure how to frame it or what to ask.

    It was almost time for my annual performance review. My manager is only here for a few more weeks, so my formal performance review won’t happen. I would still like to sit down with them to solicit feedback, suggestions for improvement, and recommendations for professional advancement, etc.

    For the first few years we worked together, we had a challenging work relationship. (My manager has earned a reputation in our field as being somewhat difficult.) If they’d announced their resignation last year, there would have been cheers and celebration.

    Over the past year, though, we’ve finally reached the point where we get along better and have a much more productive working relationship. I take a lot of credit for this change: understanding our respective communication styles; adjusting my communication/workflow to align with what seems to work with them; being less frustrated by their personality quirks. For example, I’ve had a lot of success in my role this year. As I’ve kept them informed of the status of projects, great feedback, etc., I’ve framed it in terms of how my work supports the organization’s goals and strategic plans (i.e., how it makes them look good).

    I’m not sorry to see my manager leave, but neither am I doing a happy dance.

    I’m also aware that, during my next job search, I can now use them as a reference – especially because we now get along so much better.

    Given how much progress we’ve made in our working relationship this year, the success I’ve had in my role in general, and with a possible future reference in mind, I’d be really interested to know what my manager has thought of my performance this year. Also, now that they won’t be my current manager, I’d be interested if they have suggestions for my career path, next steps, etc.

    I’m looking for suggestions on how I can frame this and any questions/themes/topics I should ask.

    Also, does it make sense to have this conversation while they’re still my manager, or should I wait until they’ve left?

    1. Wrench Turner*

      Just be open and ask for it. They could be leaving tomorrow or years from now. That’s got nothing to do with how you perform and the progress you made. Maybe they can grow in to a professional mentorship later, but for now, just ask!

  238. Jessen*

    So somewhat of a mix of personal and work issue here. My mother has taken to texting me to let me know that she’s nearby my work when I’m getting off shift, when she’s in crisis mode and I’m not answering the phone. There is a reason I’m not answering the phone. I do not expect discussing that reason with my mother would do anything except give me a headache.

    My concern is that calling work or showing up at work because she “needs my help” would very much be in character for her. I feel like generally people tend to be more sympathetic to her and expressing that I’m trying to stay out of things simply results in me being chided. It’s generally a PITA to try to explain emotional abuse to people who have no idea what emotional abuse is. So I’m not really sure how to react if that does happen, because I know the pressure would be on me for making her resort to such extreme measures.

    1. Temperance*

      I highly recommend checking out /r/RaisedByNarcissists or /r/RaisedByBorderlines on Reddit.

      I would advise you not to tell her your schedule going forward, and for now, maybe invent a white lie about how you aren’t able to have cell phones out at work. Can you change your times?

      1. Jessen*

        I can’t change my schedule without losing a significant chunk of income, and it’s stable every week.

    2. Thlayli*

      I’m sorry you’re experiencing this. I’m a big fan of straight talk. If someone gives you any flak look them straight in the eye and say “among other issues my mother is extremely manipulative and is manipulating you right now, and using you to try to manipulate me. I have good and valid reasons for avoiding her that are none of your business.” Then turn around and walk away. If that doesn’t shut them up then probably nothing will.

    3. Nacho*

      Talk to your boss. Ideally your company should have some kind of security procedure in place for when someone shows up to talk to an employee who doesn’t want to talk to them. You don’t have to explain the abuse, just say you don’t want to talk with her and that’s all that matters.

      1. Wrench Turner*

        That’s it there, start with your boss. You don’t have to get too detailed, but her being around will affect your performance and may stir up drama for the company, so she’s not welcome.

      2. Jessen*

        Leaving aside security procedures, we don’t even have security. We have a badge on the doors, but that and a few security cameras is the extent of anything that could be called security procedures around here. I’m not even sure how we’d implement a procedure for that.

    4. Bacon pancakes*

      Is your position unavoidably front-facing (e.g. retail) or is there a receptionist who your mom would have to go through to get to you? I would think a quiet heads up to the receptionist and your boss could help deter/reduce any in-office drama. Like “my mom may call/stop in unexpectedly, and regardless of the level of ‘emergency’ she claims, please tell her I am out/with a client and relay any message she may want to leave.”
      My mom also likes to text and call while I am at work and expects immediate reply. It is frustrating when anyone demands that you be on-call to their needs and disregards your obligations.

      1. Jessen*

        It’s not quite as bad as retail, but it’s call center work. Due to my shift there’s no sort of receptionist or anything – any agent in the building could answer the phone, and there is typically no sort of management around or anything like that, other than our “team lead” who is the very last person I’d trust to be helpful on this.

    5. Observer*

      I actually think that most people would realize that “mom showing up to work” is unusual enough that your saying “Yeah, my bother crosses a lot of boundaries. It’s an issue and I don’t want to get into the details of my personal life at work.” would resonate. SOME people will try to push, of course, but your best bet in those cases is to refuse to discuss it, and repeat “I am not going to discuss my personal life at work.”

      Don’t try to explain emotional abuse. A lot of people will recognize what’s going on, but for those that don’t it’s a losing endeavor. And, in some ways it’s easier to grasp the specific “she’s crossing a boundary by coming to work” than the larger concept.

  239. Anonyby*

    Hello community! It’s been at least half a year since I’ve been on here! I received one promotion to FT (split between two offices, so not normal hours) at the beginning of last year, and then a second promotion to standard FT at an even higher level position in July! I’ve been super busy, but I’m much much happier with the work I’m doing and having regular M-F hours! Now if only the pay can catch up… (my company’s grandparent company imposes a max on how much of a raise you can give someone based on percentage of their pay, even in cases of promotions. My boss is giving me raises as high and as fast as she can in order to try to get me up to my peers.)

    Here’s a question… How do you re-frame how you deal with a coworker when you’re not sure if their seeming incompetence is because of cultural background (growing up blue collar vs white collar, for instance) or if it’s just laziness? I’m dealing with a weekend admin who doesn’t pull his weight, and doesn’t remember how to troubleshoot problems with our systems despite us bringing him in to teach him multiple times. (And he’s not going anywhere–bringing it up to the boss is useless.) I’m looking for how I can reframe how to deal with it in my head so I don’t drive myself nuts with what I can’t change!

    1. Thlayli*

      I don’t see why it’s relevant what causes incompetence. If they aren’t able to do their job despite lots of help that needs to be escalated. A heads up to them in advance would be a kindness. absolutely do not say anything like “it’s probably because they’re parents are poor do it’s totally not their fault, but…” when escalating it. Stick to the facts and how it affects your ability to do your work.

    2. Observer*

      Please don’t reframe incompetence as “cultural issues” – it’s a good way to set yourself to entertain a lot of bias in the future.

      I also have a hard time thinking of a cultural context that would explain what you are describing. The only thing I would ask is if the person is getting clear and consistent directions. Not just the instructions on how to troubleshoot, for instance, but clear instructions that troubleshooting IS part of his job.

  240. Broke Researcher*

    So something big kinda happened today. I found out that I had been overpaid almost $1000 per month for the past 5 months I’ve been working at my company. I know there’s lots of people who will say that I should have been checking my paystub…and they’re right. I was…but I was looking at the # thatwas actually going into my bank account. I don’t really need advice, I just have to wait to see what happens with HR and payroll and whatnot and I won’t really know what happens until then. I guess I’m just venting because I’m so worried that I will have to pay this money back. I honestly never thought anything was weird because my paycheque was consistently the same # since I started, it seemed a bit high but as my contract is temp, I get a % vacay pay added on (and stupidly i didn’t know that # either). This sucks. Check your pay stubs. I honest to god wasn’t trying to get extra money, something was just wonky with payroll from the get go i guess..

    1. nep*

      I look pretty closely at earnings / pay stubs to check for errors. (Generally errors are not in my favour so it’s in my interest…I have found errors in my favour in the past and when I pointed them out there was a reason behind it or business officer let it go.)
      I hope they will allow you to pay it back in installments anyway. That’s a pretty big hunk of change to have to hand back at once.
      Good luck.

    2. WellRed*

      You most likely will have to pay it back, probably through some sort of plan or payroll deduction. Also, and please someone else weigh in, don’t overlook potential tax issues that will need to be sorted.

    3. Thlayli*

      Start saving the extra amount now, as well as however much you can afford, in case you do have to pay it back. I know this is dishonest but if I couldn’t afford to pay it back right away I would say nothing and wait and see, but he saving money to be ready to pay it back when it’s found out. Once you’ve saved up the 5k backlog plus however mucjnekse you owe by then, keep it all separate in a high interest account if possible and keep paying it in and don’t spend it for a year or two after the end of the last tax year in which you worke at this company.

  241. Look Back In Ingres*

    A minor thing that bugged me yesterday:

    So, meeting for IT yesterday, about 40 people there. The CIO is talking about a new piece of software we’re gradually making BAU and he says “nobody even knows what TeaGlaze3000 is except for a few guys in Lids”.

    Except perhaps me, as my role was created to bring administer TeaGlaze3000 and bring it over from Lids to Handles? And who also was sitting directly in front of him at the time and who works in the desk behind him? And who constantly talks about TeaGlaze3000?

    Like, I’m sure it was an honest mistake, but there are only 4 young women in the team and we’re all ex-admin and we’ve all had to really battle to get taken seriously and not to be lumped with organising the Christmas party (which we did, actually). But I’ve been reading a lot about how it’s small actions that add up to disadvantage women in the workplace and idk, I’m really smarting about it and kind of wished I’d put up my hand and said “Also me! That’s my job! I’ll happily explain it to anyone!” at the time.

    1. nep*

      Your frustration is understandable. And I hope that if there is another such occasion, you will do just that. I think that would be a fine way to clarify things, right in the moment.
      (What’s BAU in this context?)
      All the best.

      1. Look Back In Ingres*

        It means Business As Usual – so, in this context, a piece of software we’ve played around with for awhile and now want people to use as part of their everyday work. It might be a regionalism, idk!

    2. Thlayli*

      I’m assuming CIO means chief IT officer and you are in his department?

      Did he mean it in The context of “none of our customers know what it is” or did he actually mean “we don’t have anyone in the department who can do this” i.e. He does not know that he has hired someone specifically to deal with this already? If it’s the former I wouldn’t worry but if it’s the latter then I think he must not have very good communication going on with his subordinates if he doesn’t know that he’s already solved this problem. If so I think you should absolutely contact him to let him know you exist!

    3. Bacon pancakes*

      Can you ask him about it Monday? Like “hey, you brought this up in the IT meeting last week, and I thought it was strange that you would say that. I was in the meeting and know quite a bit about the software and would be more than happy to help anyone interested in learning more about how it runs.” There is no reason you can’t correct it in hindsight.

  242. Environmental Gone Public Health*

    I am feeling a bit torn right now. I’m growing more and more dissatisfied and frustrated with my job. My boss manages like a drunken squirrel, there is no possibility of upward mobility, and my workload is exponentially increasing – and this is county level gov’t, and they’d have to create a position with funding, which the commissioners would never approve. I manage 5 service programs the county offers, with apparently another 3 on the way. Most counties have several people per program. I have spoken to my boss (starting with subtle and ending very bluntly) and she has not seemed to understand or care about my concerns.
    I’ve started to job hunt, but I’ve only been at this position a year. I’m hoping to move entirely out of the gov’t sector and into a private company. I feel bad that I’m planning on leaving the department, but I’m going insane with the ridiculous workload and amount of red tape I have to go through with a wishy-washy supervisor and limited resources.

    1. Environmental Gone Public Health*

      To add: part of my job is unsafe housing complaints/calls. I literally force people out of their homes. Adults I don’t usually have a problem with. Kids? Very difficult for me to handle. I’m not a social worker. I have no training as such. Seeing kids in these situations makes my heart hurt. There’s no support for this. No additional training. No counseling in how to handle this. It’s an additional level of emotional and mental stress that is really draining on me.

  243. StarLights*

    For the past year, I have been working in healthcare management for a company that has high ideals. These ideals were very attractive to me in the interview process. However, I soon found out that the company requires a LOT from employees without appropriate staffing or compensation. This results in poor work/life balance and high turnover. I plan to leave the company within 6 months and go to a new geographic location. As I look for a new job, I find myself fearful that I could end up in the same situation. How do I try to figure out what a company will actually be like to work for? Besides glassdoor and Indeed? I’ve tried using the “best places to work in America” as a guide…

    1. alice*

      In interviews, I usually ask questions like “What’s the day-to-day like for this position”, “Who is the ideal candidate here”, and “What’s your favourite part about working here”. It doesn’t always work, but sometimes they’ll throw in something that gives me a hint. For example, I asked the second question once and the response was something along the lines of “Someone who will go home and learn something if it’s not in their skillset already.” This translated as extremely long hours and me required to pick up new tools at a fast pace.

  244. paul*

    I broke one of AAM’s cardinal rules and am giving massively advanced notice at work; discussed time frames with my boss today.

    Can’t lie, I’m very nervous about the next 6-8 weeks.

      1. paul*

        We’re coming up on our fiscal year around the time we’re scheduled to move and the funding situation at my job is kind of crappy (non profit, partially state funded, partially grant funded). Basically looking at possible headcount issues.

    3. MissDissplaced*

      There is nothing really wrong with giving a long notice. It just depends on the company and situation and your role. Some people have more to wrap up. A good company won’t push you out sooner.

  245. I've been put on leave...*

    So I filed an harassment complaint with Human Resources and after doing so I was put on leave. The complaint I made was against not only my boss but his boss and then the facility manager. I was called in by HR for an interview in regards to the complaint and with me knowing the close relationship the HR representative has with my boss I felt like she couldn’t be an impartial third party in the investigation. I stated as such so they table my interview until they could bring in someone from a different district. The same day I’m called into a second meeting with the facility manager and the area manager. The area manager asked me if I were recording the conversation and I stated that I was. He said he wanted to talk to me about my “performance” but did not want to ask questions while being recorded. At this point I was flabbergasted because now all of a sudden after I filed an complaint of harassment my “performance” is now in question. The area manager stated that since I did not answer the “performance” questions they were putting me on leave. They then proceeded to take my badge and keys and then escorted me out of the building as if I had been fired. I’ve never felt so humiliated in my life. Two days later they brought in another HR representative to do my interview and to start the investigation. Not having been through something like this before, does HR question all parties involved separately? The reason I am asking is because a number of my coworkers were texting me and letting me know that the HR representative they brought in was talking to two of the other parties together. Then I find out I’m the only one they put on leave. The HR representative stated that after she is done with the investigation then it goes to the legal department? Does anyone know why this would happen?

    2. Thlayli*

      I would be very surprised if the didn’t involve the legal department – surely it’s part of legal s job to advise on whether laws were broken and what should be done. Make sure you tell the he rep everything including the fact that they refused to ask you questions then put you on leave for refusing to answer the questions they never asked.

      1. I've been put on leave...*

        Thanks for the reply Thlayli! The HR rep knew they had put me on leave because it was brought up during the interview. She stated you were not let go because of the complaint; you were put on leave because I did not answer the “performance” questions. I was already on leave before talking to the HR rep they brought in.

    3. ExceptionToTheRule*

      Get a lawyer but it is normal for HR to interview all parties to a complaint and to involve the legal department.

  246. FroYoYo*

    My former boss, Ned, left our company more than a year ago. Ned’s position was never filled. His duties were split across several direct reports, including me. It was not surprising they denied replacing a managerial position like the one Ned held. The company has been trying to cut the size and budget of our department for a few years. Our team began to report to another manager, Daenerys.
    We could use more help. Daenerys wants us to have more help. My grand-boss has expressed that he also wants us to have more help. Unfortunately, every proposal to add an entry-level position to our team is shut down.
    Ned has recently approached other members of our team to express an interest in coming back. When a colleague mentioned it to me, I asked Daenerys if the company would consider bringing Ned back to give us more support. Daenerys confided that she and grand-boss were told by c-suite exec Joffrey (my great grand-boss) to look for a way to fire Ned.
    I chose not to disclose this to Ned when he approached me directly about whether it was possible to return to his old position. I mentioned only that we did not have the buy in from senior leadership or the budget to get more help (which is also true). Ned has resolved to talk to one of Joffrey’s direct reports who has a lot of political pull. Am I doing him a disservice by not telling him what I learned?
    I would rather not betray Daenerys’s trust. At the same time, I feel like it is not collegial to dance around the facts if Ned is investing time in finding an opportunity to return. I also worry about whether Joffrey will take our team’s requests for help seriously if he gets wind of Ned trying to return to help solve the problem of our team being short-staffed.

    1. KayEss*

      I don’t have anything useful to say, but that sounds like a sucky situation that would be much improved by the strategic application of dragons.

    2. soupmonger*

      I’d say nothing to Ned. He is not going to be allowed to come back and finding out they had been looking for ways to fire him wouldn’t benefit him at all. Or you, if Daenerys finds out you’ve blabbed a confidence.

    3. Observer*

      You don’t really owe Ned this level of information. If he’s a reasonable person he’s not going to invest a ridiculous amount of time, energy or resources here. And if he’s not a reasonable person, it’s not on you to save him from himself, especially by breaching your manager’s confidence.

  247. Comms Girl*

    I had an appraisal this week (commented about it this last week but very late in the game so I wasn’t expecting any replies). It went way better than I expected – my anxiety makes me fear these things way more than I should and I had been psyching myself out all week. It was the first time ever that I asked for a raise, and the first time I’ve ever gotten one :) it’s not gigantic, but it makes a huge difference at the end of the month, and I loved the sensation of seeing my hard work and commitment to the company pay off :) Have a lovely weekend, everyone!

  248. Chocolate Teapot*

    The person who also does the same work as me has just handed in her notice. I am not entirely surprised as some of her behaviour has been a bit odd lately (longer than usual lunch breaks, arriving late and leaving early, dressing differently etc.)

    Thankfully we will have a period of handing over, and HR is already on the lookout for a replacement, but I have a feeling I will have to train up somebody with little experience, as they will be cheaper to employ.

  249. Bacon pancakes*

    A friend of mine from my college retail job is a manager at a retail store and just received word that thier employee dress code is changing… women will now be required to wear makeup and heels while on the clock.
    No word on what men will be required to wear. I am guessing not something that would be tortuous to spend 8 hours on your feet in.

    1. Chris*

      That sounds awful!
      I was a retail manager for several years and can not imagine working that job in heels. My feet hurt bad enough in my old lady support shoes. Hopefully her bosses see how ridiculous this is quickly, and before someone hurts themselves.

    2. nep*

      Ugh that is awful. BOOOOOO to the people who come up with such rules. That would certainly have me polishing up my resume.

    3. Observer*

      In the US, that’s probably illegal unless they have some very strict rules for men. Also, HEELS in a retail environment? Are they out of their minds?

  250. Wrong Number*

    I am feeling annoyed this morning as I discovered that the number I was told to call back for a job interview was some random dude’s phone number. He just called, quite confused as to why I was leaving him messages about a job.

    I will call them on Monday on their main number but now I’m worried I’ve missed the chance to interview for the position. And I’m trying to figure out a tactful way of saying it’s because your employee gave me the wrong number to call back. Argh.

    1. AnonAndOn*

      When you call them back say, “Good morning/afternoon. I attempted to call Mary to schedule an interview, but I may have been given the wrong number by mistake. The number I was given was (123) 456-7890. Is this the correct number?” You’ll be acknowledging that you got the wrong number but won’t be saying, “Mary gave me the wrong number!”

      Hopefully they’ll confirm with you what the proper number is and let you reschedule. Good luck to you.

  251. Prof Wrangler*

    Bit late on this post, but I wanted to share my success story.

    Just under a month ago, I decided I wanted a part-time administrative assistant job to go with my current remote job as operations director for a nonprofit. While I have a great deal of responsibility at that job, I actually have no “regular” office experience, and I felt that could be a real issue if I ever wanted another nonprofit management job.

    I was concerned because, in some ways, I was both over- and under-qualified for entry-level office work. I was also looking for a part-time position, when most companies in my area want full-time coverage. In other words, I had steeled myself for a long search.

    I’m happy to report, however, that — using a resume and cover letter shaped entirely according to AAM’s advice — I got two calls leading to interviews in the first week of my search, and I started my new job on Thursday. It’s always hard to say for sure this early on, but it seems like the exact type of learning experience I need: accurately following established procedures with an efficient and successful organization. (The nonprofit I work for is quite small and my position in it self-created, so I’ve had to make up a good many things as I go along. That’s a truly useful skill, but it’s also rather a relief to *not* have to do that.)

    This company was downright eager at the interview to assure me that they would give me whatever schedule flexibility I needed. Though I was too nervous to perceive it at the time, I recognize now that they were actively working to sell me on the position. I have no doubt that AAM’s guidance helped me to make the best possible impression with my application materials, which convinced this company to hire me even though I could be considered a bit of an odd fit.

    Thank you so much, Alison, for publishing so much useful advice! I feel really good about this position and this company, and I couldn’t have gotten here without you. Here’s to good luck for all your job-seeking readers!

  252. Tomato Soup*

    I have an interview tmrw but I don’t know what time yet still waiting for recruiter.
    I’m kinda anxious and scared I’ll mess up again. RIP

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