open thread – February 9-10, 2018

by Alison Green on February 9, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Pat*

    Since this came up a few times this week: in terms of perks/working conditions, what would you consider big enough a deal to leave your current job over? I specifically mean change in CURRENT conditions, not about perks that would sway your decision on whether or not you’d accept an offer.
    For example, if your dog-friendly office has decided to ban dogs (for whatever reason), or they switch to hot desking, or take away WFH arrangements etc.

      1. Nyxalinth*

        Long-time TES fan appreciating your name!

        I hate host desking. I encounter it a lot in my call center jobs. It feels impersonal and like we really aren’t valued.

        2. Jesca*

          I literally just got an email from my son’s teacher today telling me that in his 4th grade classroom, they are implementing hot desking!!! In his forth grade class!!!

          1. Itsnotacoldjustafever*

            Hot desking was designed to save space – the design means less desks that the number of employees, for companies whose staff are at off site meetings, at back2back meetings. Does the school really suffer from that high a rate of absenteeism, or do they really expect the kids to be in meetings all day? (Ms. Teacher, hold my calls, I’ll be in the board room)

            1. The Curator*

              It is not unusual for elementary and middle school student not to have a “permanent” desk. I worked fifteen years in a school where there were no “desks” just tables that moved around in groupings . Personal items, jackets, books and notebooks were stored in cubbies.

              Its funny that on this blog this is referred to as “hot desking” when groupings with no permanent desks are considered best practices for this age group.

              1. Jesca*

                It is not refered to on this blog as hot desking. That is literally what the note said.

                And yeah kids do normally have permanent desks that are then switched around at various times throughout the year. They keep things in their desk that they are working on. Now, they will not have that. Also, just so you know, my son is atypical and on a 504 plan. Keeping himself organized now is a struggle. Now that every day he doesn’t know where he is going to sit? Best practices? Please gurrrrl.

                1. DouDou Paille*

                  I never had an assigned desk at any school I went to, but I’m 48, so maybe this is a newer thing? That’s what lockers/cubbies were for – storing your stuff since you couldn’t keep it in a desk.

                2. Falling Diphthong*

                  Ouch. I know some kids who struggle with that, and upending their routine and sense of predictability is rough.

                3. Oxford Coma*

                  I was just going to say that having preferential seating is a very common IEP accommodation, so I’m surprised to hear that hot desking in a classroom is the norm.

              2. T3k*

                That’s really odd to me, because I can remember having assigned seating all through elementary and middle school. It wasn’t until high school that we didn’t have assigned seating (but by then, most followed the common practice of “we don’t have assigned seats, but I”m claiming this seat” mentality).

                Where I am, people love to display things on their desks and shelves and is almost part of the company’s culture, so if they switched to hot desking it’d definitely ruffle feathers, not to mention losing personality for one’s workspace. Thankfully, because certain groups really need specialized equipment and rooms, I can’t see the company doing this anytime soon.

                1. Jesca*

                  It is a lot newer concept. And it not exactly like people are describing it here. At his school they apparently refer to it as hot desking. But there are other names.

                  Basically it is meant that kids walk in every day a decide where they want to sit in the room, who they want to sit beside, who they want to work with that day, and on what type of “object” they want to sit (like how in some hot desking places they have couches and different types of furniture). The bullying aspect of this is going to make my son’s life hell. It already is hell. Hell, his entire therapy right now only involves how to deal with the bullying. They won’t even let him sit down at lunch where there are no assigned seating.

                2. Coalea*

                  Back in the Dark Ages when I was in elementary school, we had assigned seats, but some teachers would choose to “shake things up” by revising the seating plan at the start of a new quarter or semester.
                  I’m grateful that we had assigned seating back then because I was socially awkward and unpopular. If the trauma of the lunchroom carried over into the classroom, it would have been excruciating.
                  I work from home now, but in past jobs I always had an assigned space (cube or office). I cannot imagine hot desking, as I am very particular about how I like my space set up and because I have so much printed material that I rely on.

                3. Beth Anne*

                  When my mom taught 4th grade she did a version of this with a lot of kids. All there stuff were stored in a box in the coat closet. But she did this more b/c their desks would get so GROSS. They’d put all sorts of weird food and stuff in them. They would just shove papers into the desk and they couldnt find assignments. So basically certain kids lost their privilege of having a desk.

                4. memyselfandi*

                  I am on the old side, plus I went to an elementary school that was built in 1873 and had desks from the 1930’s with inkwells. The desktop was a heavy wooden lid that lifted up and you stored all your stuff in the desk . This was in an old New England mill town. If you’ve ever read Amy and Isabel by Elizabeth Strout you have a pretty exact picture. Keeping your desk neat was something we were evaluated on. It wasn’t until high school that we had lockers. The high school was modern. It was the first single story high school built in my state and the design was considered to be innovative. Having my own desk was very anchoring for me as a child. I grew up in a large family and everything was shared. It is different for most children today at home, but I still think regularity and routine are important. Whether or not you need a desk at school for that, I don’t know, perhaps there are other ways, but it seems some children, like Jesca’s find it useful.

              3. Elizabeth H.*

                My experience was: lab school for grades 1-2, no desks at all just tables. We had cubbies for our stuff. Grade 3, our own desk with a space underneath for our own things. We had our names on name cards taped to our desks and they were in a U around the room all facing the teacher. Grades 4-5, we had tables that were like islands with four kids assigned to each desk. It got switched a few times during the year. We kept our stuff in backpacks/in coat etc area. Grade 6, we had our own desk in homeroom where we kept our stuff, and that was our classroom for two classes, but for other classes we sat at other kids’ desks (assigned). No desks after that, I think. But we always had assigned seats. I think in high school, for most classes, we could pick where we sat but then we had to stay there. I think it’s really bad not to assign younger kids seats, regardless of if they’re desks or tables, because it is absolutely awful for kids who are shy, who are bullied by peers, or who have some kind of social problem. everyone’s more comfortable with an assigned space. (Same with partners in gym – I will never for the life of me understand why any teacher, ever, lets kids pick partners rather than assigning them )

              4. Akcipitrokulo*

                Always had my own desk until high school (where you’re in the classroom for 50 minutes).

              5. Totally Minnie*

                All of the elementary school teachers I know prefer to assign seats. One reason is to accommodate students whose educational needs mean they need to be closer to the front of the room, or farther away from distractions. Another reason is that 8 and 9 year olds are not known for their impeccable judgement. You assign seats so that the kids who would end up bickering all day aren’t always on top of each other. Or so that your two class pranksters don’t end up sitting together and causing shenanigans that upset the learning of everyone else.

                I’ve never known of a teacher allowing kids to choose their own seats before about age 12.

            3. Coffee Cup*

              This is so strange. I personally know a 4th grade class (my own) that would have killed to have “hot desking” but was told that we weren’t old enough to not have assigned seats…

          3. AnotherJill*

            Honestly, I don’t think that is such a bad idea. If students are moved around, it has the potential of letting them get to know other students and maybe fewer cliques are formed. Giving the students an opportunity to pair or work with various people can help them broaden their horizons a little.

            1. Jesca*

              Sure. Unless you happen to be atypical and the target of bullies. My son can’t even get a seat to eat lunch and normally has to throw all his food away as he spent most of his time trying to find a place to sit. All of his class mates will not let him sit to eat. One day a student even stood up and knocked all the food out of his hands. So now when he walks into class … yeah you can put it together. So nah. Good for some kids. Not good for others.

              Sigh. Just another thing I need to worry about and another thing I have to go into school to discuss (he is on a 504 and this little exercise interferes)

              1. Teacher trainer*

                It sounds like you have a majotpr bullying issue, with or without this approach to seating. That’s not really about the educational benefits of the seating policy in general.

                I’m sorry you are having to deal with that. I hope you and your son’s school can sort that out soon.

              2. Anoun E Moose*

                Is it possible to have your child switched to a different school in the district? There are honestly so many issues here. The fact that the teacher and/or school aren’t taking steps to stop the bullying is mind boggling. And if your child is on a 504 and it’s reasonable for him to have a regular, assigned seat…then why in the world wouldn’t they just give him an assigned seat? The whole point of placing a child on a 504 plan is to make adjustments (within reason) to accommodate the child.

                As the parent of a child on an IEP, I understand the challenges and I’m so sorry that you and your child are having to go through this. Hopefully you’re able to get things straightened out for your son.

              3. Lissa*

                Good for some kids, not good for others, as you say, but does this mean you think they shouldn’t change what’s going on because it’ll disrupt some kids, or just that you’re personally frustrated? I just can’t tell from your posts if you’re saying you think this type of system is something the school should not be implementing at all.

              4. Half-Caf Latte*

                Sorry to hear that your son has these struggles and that this adds to your worries.

                It sounds like you’re a wonderful advocate for him, and I hope that you’re able to solve this problem quickly and painlessly.

                Gentle hugs from an internet stranger, and evil glares at the adults who allow such blatant bullying to go apparently unchecked.

              5. Specialk9*

                My sister’s kid was being badly bullied, was on an IEP but the school was not really following it (years of struggling), and was covering up the bullying. An older kid tried to kick him in the head, but a teacher stuck her leg out instead, and the teacher had to go to the ER from the force of the blow (so, basically, a potentially killing head kick). The school covered it up completely – someone who witnessed it told my sister, and the school still tried to hide it, but once she knew and was able to make the right demands, it all came out.

                She had to sue, and won, and the school district had to pay for him to go to a fancy private school for his needs. It changed his life – he had friends for the first time, with a classroom full of other kids as awkward and with the same issues as him. And he finally started talking about all the bullying, which he thought was just normal. A lot of problems that we thought were in his brain chemistry were actually stress.

                All to say, it sounds like your school is allowing bullying. Lawsuits sometimes are the answer.

            2. T3k*

              This is a bad idea to me. Having been the outcast for many years in school, it was tough enough having to find a group to join for mandatory group projects, but if I was then forced to have to sit with a group because it was the only available desk and I can tell they don’t want anything to do with me, I’d be angry and upset. Having students freely move around will only let cliques form because now they can choose to sit with their friends rather than be forced to be beside someone they’d never willingly interact with if they could choose. Hell, even lunch was a nightmare trying to find somewhere to sit until I made a few friends.

            3. KayEss*

              Unfortunately in reality it plays out exactly as it does in the office world, where everyone has an unofficial “claimed” seat and sits there every time. It’s pretty much human nature to want a consistent space of our own.

            4. Falling Diphthong*

              What you are describing would be the opposite of elementary hot-desking–the teacher assigning seats and overruling kids’ desire to sit in their existing cliques.

            5. pcake*

              It would have been awful for me. I was great socializing with adults when I was 5 through 13, but I wasn’t good with kids my own age. I felt cut off and miserable, and having to sit near different kids each day would have made things much worse. Besides, from middle school on (I’m older so we had Junior High School starting after 6th grade), things are so cliquey that the loners will end up relegated to the least appealing seats every day.

          4. Jules the Third*

            My 4th grade kid has not had an assigned seat in at least three years – International Magnet school in a large, relatively well-off district, US South. 33% free / reduced lunch, if that works as a benchmark.

            The classes are all small round tables, 3 – 4 seats at each. The kids do a group project two or three times a week, or break out into small groups to study different topics (eg, 1 desk has ‘rocks’, the other has ‘minerals’, and the next day they switch). It is designed to give the kids more of a chance to learn team work, or at their own pace. The teacher starts the class with a brief lecture (eg, ‘here’s things to look at with Rocks or Minerals), but then lets the kids free to fill out worksheets and do some hands on work. Also, some of the tables are higher, and the kids can stand while writing. It’s great for fidgeters.

            Resources like pencils / papers sit with the desks, not the kids. We send in a package of supplies at the beginning of school, the teacher manages it. It’s a quiet way for us to support the poorer students.

            My kid did great with this through 3rd grade; he’s now struggling a little bit with the less structured environment, but we’re working with the teacher on ways for him to handle it. It works best with classes that have 1 adult per 12 – 15 kids, usually Teacher + Aide.

            So, don’t dismiss ‘hot desking’ in school just because of the name; like Common Core or New Math, there are reasons behind it, and studies that show the benefits for kids overall. Some kids will struggle, but that’s true in the ‘rows and lectures’ version too.

          5. essEss*

            This is a bad thing in school. Kids will gravitate to sit with friends and will be distracted by talking and sharing among each other. I recall in school that the teacher frequently had to adjust the seating chart to keep the ‘talkers’ from being seated next to each other in order to keep order in the classroom.

            1. Luna*

              Yes, exactly, and the “uncool” kids will be ostracized. We always had assigned desks when I was in school in the 80s and 90s, the teacher would usually just switch up the seating arrangement every quarter or so, this way the kids are forced to socialize with almost everyone in the class by the end of the year.

            2. Natalie*

              It really depends how it’s done. A friend has some kind of set up with a speak-and-spell toy that assigns the kids seats, for precisely the reasons you outline.

          7. SallytooShort*

            I went to elementary school in the late 80s/early 90s and we didn’t have permanent seats. I don’t think this is new.

      2. Comms Girl*

        Luckily hot desking doesn’t seem to be a thing here in the Old Continent – or at least for full-time employees.
        I think most people would find it majorly weird because each person has their projects dossiers, their own office supplies and material, their own space, etc. Playing musical chairs, office edition, would just demoralise everyone and possible cause a few arguments.

    2. Rat Racer*

      If my company took away my WFH privilege I’d be gone in a hot minute. It is one of the major reasons I’m at this job, and why I think it will be so hard for me to leave. The nearest office isn’t even that far away, but I’ve gotten so accustomed to working East Coast hours from California in my pajamas all day long that I can’t fathom having to put on real clothing and driving to an office. My whole life would have to change: I’d have to hire a baby-sitter for my kids in the afternoon, buy a whole new wardrobe. It would be a deal-breaker.

    3. Justin*

      Actually leaving my job?

      Uh, well, I’m paid by a university (although I don’t actually work on campus), and they pay for education up to a certain point. If I get into my doctorate program (fingers crossed…), my job will pay for what works out to, oh, 40% of it.

      Soooo yeah if they took that away I’d…. find some other job that would pay for it (or go into more debt than I want to, on top of my masters).

      1. Buffy*

        Good luck on getting in! I work for a University as well, getting my masters 75% paid for and loving it.

        1. Justin*

          Thanks.

          And yeah, I should have done this for my Masters, which I have 5 more years to pay off (public service, which even Betsy DeVos cannot succeed at taking away from my wife and I since we signed up years back).

          If I play my cards right, my household will be debt-free by the time this program finishes, if I get in. Then, maybe, we can buy property. Lots riding on this, so definitely a deal-breaker for the job.

      2. KL*

        Another university employee here! If they took away for our program, there would be rioting on campus. We have pretty awesome one were you can up to 9 hours for free each semester and your only responsible for taxes after you go over a certain amount in tuition each year (I don’t want to out where I work). There are caveats, like you can’t enroll in certain programs on this program, but this is one of the big reasons I’m not looking to leave for a while.

        1. Justin*

          Yeah, they only pay for classes related to your job at mine, but that definition is very broad (and mine is anyway, but still).

          There are 20ish people on my team and it seems almost half of them have become students at some point during their tenure.

      3. Specialk9*

        I don’t understand – you’re paying for PhD instead of being paid? I thought that was the deal – students pay for undergrad and Masters, and get paid (a pittance) for PhD.

        1. Maude Lebowski*

          I used to work at a university (in an admin job) that paid for tuition for undergrad and Masters. As for PhD, it varies by place and program. I paid for my Masters myself (not at the uni I worked at), but did get some Teaching Assistant and Research Assistance work (however I still had p-t jobs outside of school at the same time). For my PhD, I got into a school in the US and one in the UK, neither of which offered any tuition assistance nor did they guarantee any income (in the form of a TA or RA), so I declined both (too flipping risky not to be guaranteed some kind of job). In some schools / programs you get funding bec you are aligned with a prof (ie supervising you) who brought in a research grant and you work on and get paid for that project for x years (so that would be the topic on which you’d be doing your dissertation). In my university, at home in Canada, we get no reduction in tuition, but do get a guaranteed TA position for x years (a generous number of yrs that the uni is now trying to reduce) BUT for my ~$19,000 a year in wages (I forget exactly – that sounds about right), I had to pay approx $6000 in tuition a year. On top of that, you apply for government grants to do your research, but if you get one of those then the university claws back your TA/RA wages, in effect subjecting you to a maximum you’re allowed to make in a year.

    4. hermit crab*

      Casual dress is a big one for me. I’m not sure I’d *actually* quit if I suddenly had to wear a suit/nice shoes/makeup/etc. every day… but I’d definitely consider it.

        1. Specialk9*

          I mean, maybe – between eBay and ThredUp, you can get an awful lot of the basics, especially if you already know the pieces that look good on your body shape and with your coloring. (And if not, MissusSmartyPants dotcom provides that for $15/3 months.)

      2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        Oh, yes. I will absolutely not ever work in an office that requires anything better than pajamas, tbh.

      3. Peggy*

        me too. I’d be ok giving up hoodies and sneakers, but don’t take my jeans away! I am on the phone or slack all day, or working independently… wearing an uncomfortably formal outfit would be absurd for my line of work, and if it were arbitrarily enforced I’d be trying to get a new job right away.

      4. T3k*

        This would be mine as well. I’ve been lucky so far that all my jobs have been casual/jeans/sneakers, type so in my late 20s, I still don’t own more than a handful of nice clothes, and only 3 non-jean pants, and I prefer it that way.

      5. Lissa*

        If I had to wear makeup and heels I’d leave, definitely. (this would be super weird in my job so I could find another place where I didn’t…)

    5. Alex*

      for me was the work from home. Not having to do rush hour commute and not dealing with a bus and 2 subways have done tons in improving my mental health. Even only once every two weeks (i have to balance with in person meetings) have done wonders on my stress and anxiety level.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        Work from home + travel expenses (mileage, hotel, meals) when I travel to our HQ every two weeks. It’s about 3 hours away, so no way could I commute every day, but I do go often, and they pay my expenses, which over the course of a year are significant.

    6. Tableau Wizard*

      I basically left a job when I knew my parking was about to be shifted off campus. It would’ve added 15+ minutes to my 75-90 minute commute and it just wasn’t going to work for me.

    7. Murphy*

      If I lost the ability to work remotely. I don’t use it regularly, but to have that option for snow days/sick me/sick kid/house maintenance is really great.

      Also flex time. I’m usually pretty regular with my hours, but I’ll adjust them slightly if I have an appointment, and having that flexibility is nice.

      1. Amber T*

        There’s an eternal battle between our two head honchos regarding flexibility. I think our top guy would let everyone be flexible on everything, which would honestly result in chaos, and our #2 would want everything to be super rigid, which would result in at least 75% of the firm quitting (probably more). Sometimes it feels like a great balance between the two, and sometimes it feels like everything is gonna blow up in everyone’s faces.

        2. Matilda Jefferies*

          I had two bosses like that once! Once was all “We can do anything we want, if only we DREAM BIG ENOUGH!!!!” and the other one was “We must have RULES and PROCEDURES for everything!”

          They managed to keep each other pretty much in check when they were both in the office, but when either one went on vacation, it was absolute chaos.

    8. Anon For This*

      Open floor plan and a cut in PTO.

      We have some other benefits, like casual Friday’s, work-from-home, etc., that I would be bummed to lose but wouldn’t drive me to quit.

    9. Anony*

      Flexible schedule. I physically couldn’t handle it if they got rid of that (and my work doesn’t fit will into typical 9-5 anyway).

    10. HRM*

      Some flexibility in my schedule. I don’t do well with rigid start and end times, and luckily for me I’ve been exempt for about 4 years now but if rigid hours were suddenly put into place I’d definitely have a hard time adjusting and would consider leaving.

      1. Kate*

        Same. My office’s culture assumes we’re all adults who can manage our time. (Everybody’s exempt.) Everybody’s expected to work roughly the same hours daily, but we have flexibility in setting our own start/end times (within reason). I’ve never had any push back on things like taking my kid to a doctor’s appointment. If I suddenly had to arrive exactly at 8:00 every day, or use PTO to attend a check-up, or have my lunch breaks scrutinized… yeah, I’d be job searching pretty aggressively.

        1. Ms. Mad Scientist*

          I get lots of small perks, but probably the biggest deal breaker for me would be loss of schedule flexibility.

        1. OwnedByThCat*

          I recently left a job in large part because of this. Even when flex time was approved by my boss my toxic coworkers would be so petty about it, and go complaining to her that I wasn’t working.

          When I started thinking about returning from maternity leave, I couldn’t fathom having to be at my desk 8 plus hours a day and not having the freedom to go check on my daughter, pick her up if she got sick etc.

          Honestly, if I’d known that I was returning to a flexible schedule and could just get my work done as I needed, I would probably have stayed!

      3. AMPG*

        Same here. In fact, when I was offered the job I have now, they told me the regular hours were 8:30-4:30, and I just flat-out told them I couldn’t do that due to the school bus schedule. I negotiated a 9:00 start time instead, but within my first six months that became a 10:00 start time, and so now my regular hours are generally 10:00-6:00 unless I need to be in early for a meeting (I stay late whenever my workload requires it). I don’t have an externally-facing role and I work mostly alone, so if they insisted I keep the same hours as everyone else (and incur the loss of time with my kids in the morning and additional expense of before-school care), I’d probably leave.

    11. Odyssea*

      If I had to start accounting for every second of my time and adhering to a strict schedule. I’m full time exempt and allowed to set my own schedule for the week – i.e. if I need to leave early or come in late, I can adjust my hours to handle that, or if we’re super busy and I don’t take my lunch break, I’ll leave 30 minutes early instead. If I didn’t have that flexibility, I would very much consider leaving.

      1. Antilles*

        That’s mine as well. My company and most of my industry basically operate under a general philosophy of “you’re a professional Teapot Engineer, we expect you to bill enough hours to be profitable and get your stuff done, but we’re not going to sit here with a stopwatch as long as you’re taking care of business”.
        And I really value that flexibility because it plays into everything. Being able to go out a couple hours for a doctor’s appointment without needing to burn a vacation day. Having the chance to take my ‘lunch’ at a slightly shifted time if I need to run errands. Being able to make evening commitments downtown without worrying about how I’m going to fight traffic. Showing up late if traffic is nuts without worries. And so on.

      3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        I think I might leave over that as well. I have fairly set hours but my bosses don’t care if I’m late because of traffic, or kids, or need to leave early for an appt, etc. I think I’d really be mad if I had to start doing timesheets – which started happening at my last job. We worked from home 60% of the week and ONE PERSON started slacking off, so instead of managing them, my bosses started requiring “timesheets” from everyone. They were a joke and hardly anyone turned them in, so it fell by the wayside, but the principle bothered me. Just another example of terrible management at my last job!

      4. Spcepickle*

        Yup, me too. Being able to leave early when work is slow because they know I will be here late to meet the next deadline is critical.

    12. Kittymommy*

      Restructuring the department I fall under. Right now I work directly for my bosses, who are the highest ranking in the company. If they changed that, but the job didn’t change, I’d start actively looking

      1. Just Jess*

        Restructuring is the first thing that came to mind and I wasn’t sure if it counted. This would be a change to my personal work and not necessarily a perk.

    13. Falling Diphthong*

      This is hypothetical, as I both work from home and freelance. (Like, right now I’m hot-desking on half the couch, while the dogs hot-desk one and a half couches, one cat hot-desks a sunbeam on the dog bed, and I don’t know where the other cat is–probably parkouring off something.) But if I had a job where I went into an office every day, I believe hot-desking would result in sending my resumes far and wide. It’s this perfect encapsulation of being treated like an interchangeable cog while adding piles of inconvenience–if you’re going to annoy me this much, it needs to be for a reason that grudgingly resonates with me.

      2. Specialk9*

        Perfect encapsulation of hot desking. “It’s this perfect encapsulation of being treated like an interchangeable cog while adding piles of inconvenience.”

    14. Can't Sit Still*

      Switching to an open office, especially if it’s that pod thing where everyone sits in a circle. Side by side is bad enough, but I would think I would actually snap if I had to sit in a circle all day.

      If we suddenly had piped in music like offices did in the 90s. Bonus points for terrible FM radio reception over the speakers!

      1. Midge*

        I interned somewhere last year that piped music into the open plan office. I think it was Pandora or Spotify stations. I had totally forgotten about that. It was one of the reasons I was kind of hoping they didn’t have a job open at the end of the internship!

    15. Detective Amy Santiago*

      My office may be relocating from ~7 minutes from my house to 25-30 minutes away. I am currently looking.

      1. Neosmom*

        This happened to me years ago. And I actually had to go through the fiction of ordering myself business cards for the new location and then giving my notice a couple of weeks before the company moved.

      2. Future Analyst*

        Ugh, sorry. Been there, I ended up negotiating WFH for 6 months, and it was the loneliest 6 months of my life. I’m 100% an introvert, but apparently I need people in my periphery.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I would love to WFH. I am so so tired of dealing with people. Unfortunately, that’s not an option in my current role.

        2. Mel*

          I am the exact same! I was WFH for almost a year at Old!Job and I absolutely hated it. I have WFH Fridays at Current Job and it’s just the right amount. I wouldn’t quit over losing WFH once a week, though I guess going back to full-time remote would push me to look.

    16. C.*

      Parking was my first thought – either relocating it so that it was more than a block away (I love walking! I do not love walking to my car in the rain after a late night at the office) or charging employees for it.

    17. selina kyle*

      Working from home would be a big one (at least partial working from home!). I love the idea of staying in something comfy and being able to work in Photoshop without being interrupted.

      1. selina kyle*

        Oh shoot – early Friday reading comprehension is low! This is what it’d take to sway me over to a new job haha.

    18. Sam Carter*

      I would be upset by switching to an open plan office, but could deal with that. If I lost flexible scheduling and unlimited PTO though, I would have to leave.

    19. bluelyon*

      Frankly losing any of them would probably be enough to make me look. I took a pretty steep cut in benefits to take this job and every time I turn around I find something that makes me even more irritable. (9 holidays not 12 which no one mentioned in my offer letter and I didn’t ask about it because it’s so outside the norm for my industry/region, only being able to take sick/vacation in 1 hour increments, crummy health insurance etc.)
      I’ve been here nearly a year and I have about 18 months before I can start looking – and if something changes dramatically between now and then I will probably start looking on day one of my potential timeline

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        I don’t understand the increments of sick/vacation time… isn’t it good to be able to take it in small chunks (i.e., you don’t have to take a full day of PTO to go to a doctor’s appointment?)

        1. Becky*

          This may not be bluelyon’s experience of the increments, but my husband is in the public sector and is required to take two hour increments of sick time when he’s got a doctor’s appointment, regardless if the appointment will be done much sooner. It’s a little odd.

          1. Totally Minnie*

            I’m public sector, and we’re allowed to take sick time in 15 minute increments. So if I’ve got a short doctor visit near the office, I can take 45 minutes, or an hour and 15 minutes, etc.

    20. Audiophile*

      If my current office moved to a true open office setting or hot desking that would bother me enough to job search.

      Second to that, my office culture is pretty relaxed as far as WFH, which I really appreciate. Also, being a pretty casual dress office is a nice perk, work attire is expensive.

      1. Beth Anne*

        Yes my first job out of college I had this admin job that paid like $8.50/hour but she wanted us to dress like we made $50k a year. She had a lot of high profile clients with money. But they were all retired so they came in not dressed nice. But it was so frustrating b/c I could barely afford to live let alone supply the wardrobe she wanted me to have.

      2. Betsy*

        Yes! Work attire is so expensive! I’ve mostly worked in very casual workplaces. We were poorly paid, so it was great that you could basically wear whatever. I’m in a job now where the pay is good for the country and the industry, but I’m personally struggling to just pay rent and bills at the moment. People here dress much more formally, although there is no set dress code, and I really resented having to spend a significant chunk of my month’s pay check on a few dresses recently.

        1. Artemesia*

          My daughter starting out did really well with this by using thrift shops. She had one where she was such a regular that they would look out for stuff for her and she got some nice pieces like for evening events that way. When I started out, I ended up wearing stuff I had for dress up in college; really terrible stuff. I remember how uncool I felt never having anything really nice for work but the pay was ludicrous and I couldn’t afford a shopping spree.

      3. MassMatt*

        Work attire is especially expensive for women, IMO. I suppose you can always spend more than you have on clothes whatever your gender, but most guys can get away with a couple pairs of shoes and a few suits or jackets (or not—often just a shirt and tie is sufficient) but women are expected to have a lot more variety and the items are pricier. And that’s without even considering hair and makeup.

        1. OhNo*

          Agreed. I can get away with mixing and matching the same four shirts and four pants in different colors for ages before anyone notices, let alone comments. But when my boss wears the same dress twice in a month, I’ve overheard people mention it. It might just be the colors making it more obvious (everything I own is black or grey, while my bosses’ outfits cover the entire rainbow), but it’s still a very different reaction.

    21. ExcelJedi*

      Lots: If my office moved out of my current small city and I actually had to drive to work.
      If they stopped paying for all or the majority of our health insurance (we’re non-profit and my salary is somewhere around 30% less than market rate, but pay nothing for health insurance).
      If they asked those of us in the office 100% of the time to hot-desk.

      I think I’d stay if most of my WFH privileges were taken away (as long as they didn’t expect me to make it in in snow storms), or if some of our generous PTO was cut into, but it would be hard.

      1. Windchime*

        Same here. My commute is already at the limit for me; any longer and I’d have to start looking somewhere else or move. Which I can’t afford to do, because houses in Seattle are insanely expensive.

    23. stitchinthyme*

      My #1 is having my own office. After spending most of my career in cubicles, it is *so* nice to have my own space, and know I can close the door if I want to. (I almost never do, but it makes such a difference knowing I can!) I got a job offer from another company a couple years ago and the main reason I turned it down was because their office environment was not only cubes, but basically open ones (“wall” only maybe a foot or two above the desk). I can put up with a cubicle, but only if it has walls. And even that would be really hard to go back to after my own office.

      Also, losing scheduling flexibility. That basically happened on my last job. I generally go to the gym in the morning before work, but as I’m not a morning person, it’s next to impossible for me to get up so early I can make it to the gym, do a full workout, shower, and get to work by 9am; I normally get in around 9:30 or so. At my last job, I did this for several years, until a medical issue forced me to stop going to the gym for a couple months, so I was coming in by 9 during that time. When I was able to go back to the gym, I let my supervisor know that I’d be going back to arriving a little later (and staying later) like I’d done before…and he told me I couldn’t because the owner had decided to be more strict about when people needed to be in the office. I left not that long after — my job is not one that involves dealing with customers or requires me to work specific hours or be punctual. That wasn’t the only reason I left, of course; getting only one raise in five years was the main one. The schedule thing was just the last straw. (He also denied another coworker’s request to come in and leave a little earlier or later since a recent move had left him with a horrible commute if he came in for “normal” hours. That coworker left a few weeks later.)

      Other things that I’d quit over:

      * Business attire — I have had one job that required suits, and I hated that aspect of it. Business casual is ok (although this job is totally casual, which is way better).

      * Loss of vacation time. I work to live, not the other way around, and I love to travel. No way I’d ever deal with a reduction in time off.

      * Loss of Internet access. Not just so I can goof off on AAM, but also because I actually need it to do my job. I have had two jobs in companies that didn’t allow access to the Internet, and at both of them it was often really difficult to work because I couldn’t just Google when I needed to know something. Don’t think I could work without Stack Overflow. :-)

    24. srs*

      It’s a little different because I’m in government so we don’t have perks like dog friendly offices. But I took a job in a new department in December because the acting director in my former office became increasingly inflexible about things like WFH and flexible scheduling. And then we moved to a new office building which basically doubled my commute, and I had a bunch of major life challenges all at the same time (bought a house, did major renos on the house, and miscarried a very wanted pregnancy at 11 weeks) so the lack of flexibility went from an annoyance to a real issue with huge quality of life impacts.

      I’m lucky, because I have a somewhat specialized skill set and can work in pretty much any department, so I put the word out that I was looking and had an offer almost immediately. I’m very happy in my new office and am literally working from home right now.

      1. JustaLurker*

        I’m curious. What specialized skill can be transferable to so many departments? Honest question.

        1. srs*

          I work in program evaluation and performance measurement. Its basically applied social science research with a strong focus on outcomes. The same principles apply even if the specific program or department changes. It isn’t that the individual skills are so rare, just that I have the right mix and a good track record.

      2. Sarah*

        I’ve worked at a government job that had a dog friendly office. There was one dog that came in regularly, which was amazing, as the job was located in a place with a serious woodrat-in-the-car-engine problem and it was a hunting dog. That dog saved a lot of people a ton of money on car repairs.

    25. NylaW*

      Open office or hot desking, lack of parking, complete lack of work-life balance, inability to work from home, bad PTO plans, bad health insurance plan, doing anything unethical/illegal/against my principles, terrible management.

    26. Half-Caf Latte*

      My reporting structure got shifted around several times at OldJob in under 2 years.

      When I took the position, it shifted my hours so that my commute got worse and I needed to commute in 2 more days per week. I negotiated 1 WFH to mitigate that, and worked for VERY flexible bosses who cared about the work being done, not when/how.

      When I got restructured to reporting directly to CEO, all of that was ended by disapproving CEO. It made work-life balance untenable, and I moved on.

      When I interviewed for NewJob, I was told by manager that she trusts employees to manage their own time, and was issued a laptop “because they want you to be set up to WFH if you needed to.”

      Was a little taken aback this week,
      by how harshly a colleague’s lightly-floated “hey, I’m gonna take my laptop home in case I can’t make it in tomorrow.* I plan to try to come in, but just in case” was shot down.

      Keeping my eye on it, but pay, benefits, commute and other aspects are better than old place, so not totally looking to bail yet. Perhaps a little bummed, but so be it.

      *Tomorrow, in this instance, being yesterday, and the commute issue being the glorious celebration of our SUPER BOWL CHAMPIONS!

    27. Spooky*

      Summer Fridays. I think it’s still mostly an NYC-area thing, but it’s popular enough here that you can usually assume every company offers some version of it. We currently have the “work early and late M-Th, leave at noon on F” all summer long, and it makes a huge difference. If my company ever cancelled it, I’d seriously consider leaving for another one that did offer it.

      (For people who aren’t familiar with the system, we actually end up working half an hour more per week, but getting that afternoon free every week is definitely worth it.

      1. 2 Cents*

        The best part about my OldJob in NYC was that my department head never made us stay the extra hours to “earn” that half a Friday off. Her philosophy was (we were all exempt from earning OT) that summer was the company’s slow period, we put in extra hours at different times the rest of the year when it was crunch time, so why make us stay late in the summer to just twiddle our thumbs? It was honestly awesome.

        1. Geillis D*

          OldBoss was a staunch butt-in-chair proponent so we did our daily hours, winter or summer, and let me tell you nothing kills morale quicker than staring at AAM at 3:30 PM on an August Friday, when you have didly squat in the work department (but welcome to take off at the expense of your hard-earned banked overtime or stingy minimum vacation days – same goes for the days between Christmas and New Years Eve. Dude never, ever closed the office).

          NewJob is awesome – longer hours between January and June, when no one has time to breathe anyway, and very relaxed summer and fall: Fridays off between July and October, office is closed between Christmas and New Years Eve, an extra week of vacation. This makes a world of difference as at this time of year I’m twice as busy as I was at OldJob but have none of the frustration and fatigue, knowing summer Fridays will start with a long walk on the trail, then with lunch with a friend, then afternoons on the patio with a book and a glass of something cold. Now I crave summer.

      3. Ree*

        Somewhat ironically, this was also popular in Manhattan….Kansas(I am not making this up, the “Little Apple” as it is affectionately called is where Kansas State University is located :)
        I worked in the construction industry and Summer Friday’s Are A Thing. Heaven help you if you wanted anything from anyone on Friday after about 12-1pm, maybe even as early as 11.
        In winter we usually left about 3 or 4pm on Fridays.
        Hands down one of the best and rarely talked about benefits in that town. It was just.. expected? I miss it!

      4. RJ the Newbie*

        I miss that so much. Had it at my old place (engineering firm), but I have better flexibility/WFH where I am now.

      5. K.*

        I loved summer Fridays. I had half-day Fridays and my then-roommate had every other Friday off (we both worked at NYC media companies). Even if you weren’t going out of town, you could get all your weekend errands done on Friday afternoon and have more free time on Saturday and Sunday.

      7. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        I’m not that far from where the Kentucky Derby is held and we called these “Derby Days”. I so miss my half-day Fridays (the company was sold and the new parent company took that perk away).

      8. nonegiven*

        DH’s office does that but alternate between Friday 8 hours and Friday off. They actually count their week from noon Friday to noon Friday to make it work out. They love every other weekend being 3 days.

      10. HigherEd Person*

        YESSSS. I never had that until my current university, but we have Summer Fridays. The whole university shuts down at 3pm on Fridays during June-August. It’s glorious.

    28. not to be identified*

      I can’t really think of anything, because the inertia is strong with me. I hate uncertainty and I hate selling myself and I’ve got a feeling that my mix of skills isn’t obvious to people who don’t work with me yet and probably isn’t that unusual anyway …

    29. Book Lover*

      Hmm – I wasn’t too excited when there were discussions about potentially having to share an office, but I would have just spent my spare time in an exam room instead. Not ideal, but not a deal breaker. Plus, everyone complained so much that it didn’t happen.

      This isn’t exactly what you were asking, but I think if I had to see double the number of patients I see now, that would do it. Or maybe even an increase of a third but I would probably give that a try rather than promptly quit.

      I think a lot of things that are perks I just look at as being the way things are – free snacks and beverages, covered parking, expenses covered for books and memberships and trips. And I could live without any of them, though it would annoy me a bit if they went away. It’s not possible for me to work from home but I can imagine that if I did work from home and that were taken away, it would be awful. But the perks we have are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.

      So it is the basics of the job that are the most important really.

    30. Lora*

      WFH. I don’t need to WFH every day, but once in a while I need to focus on getting paperwork done, and I can’t do that in an open office. I just can’t. It’s the pits. I can put up with a long commute if it’s only a few times per week, but every day gets old.

      Mainly I’m very picky about who I work with. There are certain people in my industry that if I heard they were getting hired and I’d have to work with them directly, I’d nope outta there SO FAST. “Not having to work with Irene” isn’t really a perk though…

    31. Anonymmm*

      Counter-thread comment – I would be actively looking to leave my job ASAP except that we have an unfortunate retirement vesting system. If I don’t stay for three years then I lose 100% of my employer’s retirement contribution. I don’t feel this is fair, but it’s keeping me here regardless of what perks are taken away.

      One handy perk is that I receive additional PTO when working overtime. If I had to work tons of overtime and lost the option to use it later as PTO, then I would start actively looking.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        In these situations it’s important to really define the value of that perk that you’re staying for.

        Humans are naturally risk-averse, and so it’s easy to see the $10-15k you’d be losing, but not what you could gain.

        I had to regularly remind myself that a $12k loss of banked sick time was not worth hanging around for if I could get even a $10k raise, better commute, etc…

      2. A Cataloger*

        I understand completely! I was planning on staying at my previous job for 5 years for the same reason. I left at a little over two (after 3 budget cuts, and 2 more predicted in the next 6 months (and no raises)). My new position paid almost $12K more, I’m immediately vested in the retirement system and they pay in 10% of my salary to my 5% (opposite my previous position). My thought process was similar to Half-Caf Latte, what I lost from them, I’ll make up due to the higher salary and the higher rate my current employer pays into retirement.

    32. DrPeteLoomis*

      Probably if we moved offices and my commute became any longer or impossible to take public transit. My commute is already long-ish because I take transit. The time is worth it to me now because it saves me a lot of stress, but if it was any longer I’d be pretty sore about it.

      1. Just Jess*

        This would be a deal breaker for me too, but I wasn’t sure if it counted. Who wouldn’t start looking if they had to add five to 10 hours a week to their commute or buy a car because of an office move? WFH could offset this, but I like coming into the office at least twice a week.

      2. DDJ*

        I don’t drive, so if the company moved to an area without public transit accessibility, I’d have to quit. I wouldn’t be able to get to work unless I had a coworker who was willing to drive me! And I’ve read enough AAM to know that’s probably a very, very bad idea.

    33. karou*

      Hotdesking, blocking non-work related internet use ( I would not be able to get through my day with AAM and Twitter breaks!), moving to the other side of the city.

    34. Ihmmy*

      No sun. I’m lucky in that where I’m at I get lots of sunlight, and I could live with a reduction, but not a complete removal of seeing sun during the day outside of my breaks.

      Lack of respect for admins / staff. Not everyone here is respectful but enough people are and enough of the higher ups value the staff and admin. If that changed and slipped into a toxic kind of environment I’d be out. I’ve worked at an awful and toxic place before and I just don’t have the energy to deal with that nonsense again.

      Ban on music. I’m not allowed headphones in my current role (back up reception) but we use speakers on a fairly low volume and it’s fine. If headphones and speakers both were banned I’d lose my mind.

    35. a-no*

      hot desking. I’d be out in a heartbeat.
      I’m currently looking for a new position partly because I’m getting moved into a bull-pen set up. Nope nope nope. If I had a cube or more than a single desk height partition maybe – but there’s zero privacy or sound muffling and I do accounting. Getting moved into a room of people who do customer service so they are on the phone 90% of the day and talking to each other for the other 10%. Not happening.

        1. Windchime*

          I honestly don’t understand companies that don’t allow headphones for people who aren’t doing customer service. It was common to see them banned 25 years ago (“People can’t work while they listen to music!”), but it’s been a long time since I’ve been prohibited from wearing headphones. I’m sorry that you can’t use them.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            My last couple of jobs had strong customer service components to them, and even we were allowed to use headphones to listen to music.

    36. grace*

      My company is HQ’ed in upstate NY, with my office in a Southeast city. If they took away the office and required us to move there or to WFH all week, I’d definitely be looking! I can’t imagine they’d do it, but I suppose it’s technically possible.

    37. galatea*

      a one-two punch of surprise homophobia from upper management and taking away WFH privileges

      either of the above I would probably grumble but stick around; both together — yeah I’m out

      1. MassMatt*

        Sorry, I just had to laugh at the mental image of “surprise homophobia”, I was picturing a crowd of people jumping out yelling “GET LOST, [SLUR]!” With confetti and noisemakers.

        1. galatea*

          Haha, I’m imagining it too, now — in some ways I think that would have been easier to deal with! Alas, nothing quite so entertaining and/or overt.

    38. Persephone Mulberry*

      At my current job – loss of the casual dress code. Loss of half-day Fridays (these are inconsistent but more often than not, but if they brought the hammer down and said we would absolutely be working full day Fridays, I’d be out). Relocating further west – this was on the table last year but that potential line of business fizzled. I AM searching, but the dress code and the short Fridays are really what is keeping me from looking harder.

    39. Bad Candidate*

      Open office, hot desking, PTO cuts, and parking. Right now we have a parking garage and it’s paid for by our company. If they stopped paying for it, that would be a deal breaker. The building we’re in has been sold and the new owners are said to be converting some floors to a hotel. If that screws with our parking arrangement, that might cause the company to leave the building, but it would definitely make me look elsewhere.

    40. Ingray*

      There’s a rumor that my company is looking into enabling tracking on our work cell phones so they can confirm employees are where they say they are. This is bad enough at work but as a manager I’m sometimes expected to have my phone with me on snow days, weekends, and I am not OK with that. If it turns out to be true it’ll be interesting.

      2. Bea W*

        I would leave in a hot second over tracking location, but I’m not in a job where that matters, like delivery or bus driver or plowing snow.

      3. Lora*

        My work cell would be permanently abandoned in my desk drawer if this happened. Couldn’t get me on the phone at 9pm? Sorry, I was in the shower.

    41. Leela*

      I had a company halve the amount of time we were allowed to use the restroom when we got bought out, to increase productivity. I noped out so fast!

      1. Just Jess*

        Why would that increase productivity? Like, show me the study. If people are slacking off in the bathroom then they will slack off at their desks instead. They’ll start using up sick leave that they don’t need.

        Great move getting out of there since that new management probably had tons of “great” ideas that no one bothered to research, test, or think about for more than three seconds before diving right in.

    42. Ama*

      Mine are all largely travel related — I work at a nonprofit so I know that the fact that my org doesn’t force us to share hotel rooms or take the absolute bare bones cheapest flight isn’t something every nonprofit gets, and I would absolutely quit on the spot if I was told I had to stop flying direct for coast to coast flights or share a room on a trip. I am extremely appreciative of the fact that my org’s leadership and board understand that being cost efficient doesn’t mean making their employees’ business travel miserable.

      However, I’d also probably start looking if my job ever changed so I had to travel more than I currently do (it’s currently 1-2 long trips of 4-5 days and 2-3 short 1-2 day trips a year). I have colleagues whose jobs require multiple trips monthly and that’s just not a job that’s for me.

      1. Koko*

        I work at a nonprofit and love that we’re required to take direct flights whenever possible because we track our carbon footprint and purchase offset credits to remain carbon-neutral. Flying has SO MUCH carbon emissions associated with it that going along two sides of a triangle instead of a straight line majorly increases the carbon footprint.

    43. #blessed*

      I’m probably in the minority here, but I have a fantastic boss and would consider job hunting if he left our company.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Absolutely. A great boss can make or break how you feel about a job. I had a boss I LOVED go on maternity leave for 4 months, and it was rough. I realized then that if she left the company, I’d leave too. (She did, and I did.)

      2. Hey-eh*

        No, I agree. I have essentially 3 bosses that I report to. Two are expected to retire in the next 5-6 years but if the other one up and quit I would follow him to a new company or start looking. He is the glue that holds this place together.

      3. Healthnerd*

        my boss is the only reason I am in my job (academia grant funded). Without him, there would be no money for my job but he is also very understanding, supportive of work-life balance as well as professional development. It has been an extremely positive experiences as this has been my first job out of grad school.

      4. Koko*

        Similar to the flexible schedule I mentioned below, I would say my awesome boss is something that keeps me at my current job, but I’m not sure I’d leave if he left, because there’s no guarantee that a new boss somewhere else would be better than his replacement. If he left and if his replacement sucked and if I had credible inside information about another boss who was great, then yep, I would probably leave.

      5. KayEss*

        The one time so far that I left a job (rather than being laid off), it was partially because the director had left for a new position. She was instrumental in advocating for my team’s specialized work in a departmental environment that was otherwise pretty much openly hostile to us, and it was clear that the search for her replacement was not prioritizing or even taking that quality into consideration. Less than a year after I left, the team had been dissolved and members who couldn’t be transitioned to new positions were forced out, so I think I made the right choice, even though it landed me in Hell!Job.

      6. Ten*

        I very seriously considered leaving my last job when my boss got forced out. The only reason I stayed was that I thought another sudden departure would just be kicking my team while they were down.

    44. NacSacJack*

      So much has already happened, I’m already at the “Thinking its time to move on” phase
      – parking moved from under the building to three parking lots away – think city block-size parking lots
      – open plan office/loss of cubicles – my co worker now gets to see me sneeze snot all over my keyboard :(
      – loss of team mates – only remote worker on team, but still sit in an office
      – 401K match given at Jan 31st the following year (all of 2017 match just got deposit last week)
      – Building move / now smaller space
      – lack of upward mobility (for me) right now – a struggle to overcome past reputation – remember that people!
      – lack of skills development (starting to change this year – whoo hoo !!!)

      What would it take?
      – Required to be in the office for early morning meetings (all meetings run on East Coast time)
      – Loss of cafeteria
      – Hot Desking
      – No more WFH / Limited WFH
      – Loss of my boss (he is great!! Awesome! Wonderful! – Would not still be here if it weren’t for him)
      – Benefits cuts – we get a 7% increase in cost of benies every year, come to expect it, but they are GOOD.
      – being told no upper mobility, no opportunity to develop skills (told in absolute terms, never gonna happen)
      – No raises two years running in great economy

      1. NacSacJack*

        Oh, and if the office moved to the other side of the cities or even further southwest or northwest (horrible commutes)

    45. Akcipitrokulo*

      We’re fairly flexible about start and end time – that would be a bit of a dealbreaker for me. If they clamped down on internet usage that would be a pretty big red flag – not because I want to waste time, but because it indicates that they’ve stopped trusting their staff and I’ve seen things go downhill from there before!

      Also travelcard loan is a big thing.

    47. What's with today, today?*

      Small market, family owned radio station: we only get one week of paid vacation per year, but I get comp days for working every major holiday and anytime the office is closed, about 10 Days per year. (exception, I’m off on Christmas). I have it set up where i use most all of those days all at one time (yes, I know the laws) as an extra week of vacation. Last year, Grand-boss briefly considered changing it, and paying time and a half instead. I’ve been there 17 years and I’m the personality, so it was easy to talk GB out of this, but for a few minutes there I was considering options. That second week is IMPORTANT to me.

    48. Peggy*

      I would hate hot-desking but I think I could survive it if I kept me 2 or 3 days per week WFH schedule. If I only had to do it 2-3 days a week I’d adjust, I’d just have to bring home a lot of plants and tea/coffee paraphernalia.

      I think my breaking point would be if they took away WFH – they’ve threatened it a few times but it never sticks. I wouldn’t quit angrily and storm out, but if they permanently removed our WFH privileges, I’d immediately start job searching.

      I was thinking I’d probably want to leave if they made us 9-5 because I’m used to a lot of freedom with my working hours. I deal with people in other time zones and often take breaks to run errands or do a load of laundry or other personal stuff during the “regular” work day because I start working super early to deal with India or the UK, or because I’m working late to deal with people in CA. But the more I think about it… if they made us 9-5, I’d work fewer hours. I’d have my mornings and nights back so it would work out for me in the end, even though it would be an adjustment!

    49. Scott*

      I recently interviewed for a position that involving shift work, that would essentially allow me to have 3 weeks off at a time every other month. As it was, the pay range was much higher than mine now, but even if it wasn’t I would take the job just based on that perk, because while the hours are insane, the potential for travelling is through the roof. Most people in that job are travel junkies.

    50. K.*

      An open floor plan, hot desking, and a commute longer than 45 minutes (public transportation or driving).

    51. clow*

      hot desking, even completely open floor plan would do it. My productivity dropped dramatically when we switched to a floor plan that was one giant room with desks all next to each other in long rows. I will never work somewhere like that again.
      if my manager changed to someone awful, i would look for a new job too.

    52. Ramona Flowers*

      Having to work set hours instead of flexible ones. I need to be here between 10-4. I can start any time from 8 and leave any time up to 7, and vary that as I please so long as I keep my various commitments and work enough hours overall. If I have to be there for a precise time and sit there until arbitrary o’clock just for appearances then forget it.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Oh, and something else I forgot until after I hit post: my interest-free season ticket loan. My employer pays for my annual season ticket and takes it back out of my salary. Which means I can buy a year up-front (you can cancel and get a partial refund if you don’t need it any more) and get the cheapest possible price.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          My company had never done season ticket loans before. HR asked me to send them details of what I was proposing, they took it to head of finance, and I’ve had one ever since :)

          It is such a big thing.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            Ah, I’ve just realised it might sound like a sports thing to a non-Brit. Over here a ‘season tickets’ means a travel pass – I get one for the train into London and it costs thousands, but is a bit cheaper if you buy a yearly one.

    53. rubyrose*

      A timely question.
      Unfortunately, the ability to effectively work only 40-45 hours a week Monday through Friday has become a perk. I warned management about this about a year ago, to no effective avail. In addition, the expectation is that I hand-hold other staff who have been on board longer than I have on basics, such as doing daily reminders on what they have been assigned, saving their work on the network so they won’t lose it when their laptop crashes, talking them through processes we have been over and over and over. I am not a manager, not getting manager pay. These people are experienced staff, not new to the workforce, not new to their position.

      I expect to work strange hours at times; it comes with the nature of the job. I expect (and actually enjoy) training and mentoring others. I don’t think my official purpose should be consistently compromised by others not progressing and being overloaded with work.

      If this situation does not change, it might be time to leave.

      1. Specialk9*

        What the heck? Yeah, good lord, start looking, that’s not normal, and is hugely disrespectful of you as a professional.

    54. Bea W*

      Moving the office outside my perferred commuting area.

      Requiring me to be in the office before 9 AM or a shift to frequent pre-9 AM meetings even if I’m allowed to take them from home. (Huge reason why I won’t return to a former employer bought by a French company 6 hours ahead.)

      Certain changes in management – the type that make your job miserable, like reporting to someone who sucks at managing.

      Expecting non-essential employees to physically come to the office during dicey weather conditions even though the Governor and Mayor have shut down government offices and are telling businesses to let people work remotely and to stay the heck off the roads. (This happened recently. Deal breaker!)

    55. Spcepickle*

      I know I seem like a cold hearted person saying this, but I would quit my job in a minute if that stated letting people bring dogs to work. (I am talking pets, service dogs are amazing).
      I already don’t shop at two grocery stores that let people shop with their dogs.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        Yeah, saying “I don’t like dogs” is more often than not met with people trying to convince you that you’d like *their* dog. I’d be out at dogs in office, too.

      2. Specialk9*

        I have and love dogs, and ALSO affirm your right not to. For what that’s worth. :D It seems like a reasonable line in the sand.

    56. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      Academia related leave. The CEO and my boss expect us to take as much days as needed, but without abusing it. If that perk ever stops we would start job searching immediately.

    57. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Well, obviously, any change would be weighed against what my other options were.

      But, the things that would make me start thinking about job hunting would be:

      – A significant reduction in PTO.
      – A significant increase in my commute.
      – A switch to a less-flexible schedule (I manage my own time and would struggle if I were expected to be on a strict 8-4 schedule or unable to work from home to accommodate a plumber or whatever).
      – I don’t use the healthcare benefits my employer offers (we use my husband’s instead), but if I did and if the cost of that increased significantly.
      – Being asked to share an office. I don’t prefer open plan offices or hot desking but they wouldn’t drive me out. But having to sit in a tiny cube with another person up in my personal space all day would make me really uncomfortable.

      Some benefits we have that I don’t care much about:

      – We get (small) annual performance bonuses. I work in the nonprofit sector so this is a super rare benefit, and of course I love having more money, but it’s small enough in my overall household income that it wouldn’t be a huge frustration if it were to disappear.
      – We also sometimes, depending on the performance of our organization’s endowment, get extra bonuses paid directly into our retirement accounts. Because this is irregular anyway, I don’t count on it and so wouldn’t factor it into a decision to stay or go.
      – We get $500/year for professional development. That’s nice, but it’s small enough that it’s sort of hard to spend, and I’m not sure I would miss it.

    58. Bea*

      I will never work in a cube again, if when we move one day they want me in one, I’m out! On site parking is a must, I did a temp gig a million years ago at the hospital and they used a shuttle. No no no no.

    59. All I want is blissful silence*

      This will sound petty – I can roll with a lot of things, but two deal-breaking-quit-on-the-spot type issues for me: #1 – open table seating (hot desking as well) and #2 music over the PA.

      I took a job at a professional consulting firm that played a 80s/soft rock Pandora station on public speakers all day long every day in the office. If I had known that, I would literally not have accepted the job. I don’t even want to listen to *my* music all day every day, but I got to the point when Tom Petty or the Eagles came on, I would fly into a face-burning rage. I left that firm after only a few months for other reasons, but to this day when I think about that place, the psychological torture of the PA music is the first thing I remember most.

      1. Hlyssande*

        They do classical music in the elevator lobbies and bathrooms at my current office. At the old location they used to pipe in Christmas music starting right after Thanksgiving…in the office areas as well as the halls, etc. If I ever hear anything by the Carpenters ever again, it’ll be too soon. I feel you.

    60. Lily Evans*

      Having flexibility with requesting time off is big for me. Both jobs I’ve had since college make it really easy to request vacation time off and I’ve gotten used to it. I know so many people who have to pick weeks for vacation at the start of the year and once those choices are made it’s almost impossible to change them and at this point I’d hate that kind of inflexibility.

    61. Betsy*

      My company makes us make up shifts that were scheduled on public holidays. It’s not the exact same thing as having to work them, but it drives me mad because effectively we’re not getting public holidays at all. I’d probably cope with this better if the annual leave provided wasn’t already extremely limited. For some reason, it doesn’t seem to bother my co-workers. There’s also no real scope for promotion or growth.

    62. Healthnerd*

      If they implemented a strict dress code. No official dress code but anything from jeans to business casual are the norm (they are explicit about not staying in workout clothes all day). But if I had to wear a suit/ dress and heels all day, I’d be out. A comfortable outfit really helps me feel more comfortable in my working environment.

      Also maybe a change in how time off is accumulated. We have a roll over system for vacation that maxs out at 22 days. Its nice to know that even if I use a big chunk early in the year, I will still have days accumulated by the end fo the year. My husbands is a set number and a use it or lose it so we have to really budget his vacation days throughout the year.

      The campus is currently under construction so parking it very limited but at least there is an end date in sight for that (they are building a new parking garage).

    63. AnotherJill*

      Every job I have left has either been for a change of career or because of people or processes. I can’t think of any perk that I couldn’t have done without. (Not really considering vacation time as a perk, although suddenly losing all of it would certainly be a contender.)

    64. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      Logistically… the only one that would truly lead me to quit is if they took away WFH… I work entirely remotely several states away from our corporate office, so if they revoked that I would have to move to a much higher COL area and away from all my friends and family.

      I don’t think they’ll do this though. Great place to work and lots of emphasis put on company culture.

    65. SurpriseScarf*

      Don’t have many perks here, but if they downsized our PTO and retirement and stopped providing continuing education for free I’d be out so fast, and I’ve already got a 1.5 feet out of the door.

    66. Serin*

      I have a cluster of things that all together add up to “the company treats us like adults.” (For instance: even if you have a position that doesn’t allow for remote work as a permanent status, you can decide to work from home because you have a sick kid or need to wait for a delivery or don’t want to drive in the snow. Our sick day policy is “if you need a sick day take one; we trust you to stay on top of your work and keep your accounts informed.” We don’t “request” vacation, we just work it out with our backups and then put it on the calendar. We wear what we like. If we want to work a non-standard schedule, we work it out with our accounts and inform our boss; no need to ask permission.)

      I can imagine circumstances where the company/department might need to restrict some of those in some way, but I would be very alert to any change in the attitude behind them. Start requiring me to find a doctor who’ll agree that I’m not lying about being sick? My job search would start the same day.

    67. Shortie*

      Loss of teleworking privileges or drug testing. (I don’t do drugs, but have no problem with others responsibly using, and I refuse to pee in a cup for anyone except my doctor.)

    68. Koko*

      I currently WFH two days a week, and on the other three days I keep shortened hours in the office and work an extra couple of hours from home so that I can avoid the commute rush.

      Those benefits are a big part of why I stay in my current job, but it’s hard to say I’d quit if they were revoked because, well, it’s rare to have this kind of flexibility so it’s not like I could just quit and go get another job that did offer it.

      And these aren’t exactly benefits from drug testing, using a time clock, and similar practices that signal the company doesn’t trust me would have me looking for a new job.

    69. RES ADMIN*

      –hot desking
      –so over loaded with work that I end up losing weeks of vacation time because I have no back up and consequently never approved for any real leave time (one of the big reasons I left last job)
      –a manager that treats me as a tool not a person (I’m pretty easy going. For years, I put up with a manager that expected employees to do/adapt to whatever she wanted without communication, support, or training–and definitely without pay adjustments or complaints. I didn’t realize how oppressive it was until I left–and I won’t deal with that again).
      –a bad boss (covers a lot of ground–I have a reputation for being able to work for impossible people and have ended up with some doozies. I’m too close to retirement to put up with that meshuggenah now).
      –I would say micromanaging, however my current boss wants to have a say in every single thing and it doesn’t bother me. She’s nice about it, though, so it hasn’t been a problem.

    70. always in email jail*

      If I found out I had to move offices to a shared office
      If they decided to put my on-call 24/7 with no compensation (I left my last job over this)

    71. Sarah*

      I think I’m at the outer limit of my commute tolerance right now, moving much further away would be unmanageable. (It would be hard for my office to do that without actually moving to a different city, however.)

      Another thing (that is incredibly unlikely given the nature of my job) would be a shift away from a normal M-F schedule. I can deal with the occasional long hours or weekend in an emergency, but I value having a fairly standard schedule. I still remember when I used to work retail and the horrible hours were one of the worst aspects of it.

      Any other one thing would probably not be enough to make me leave.

    72. kible*

      definitely the being comfy with working from home. we’ve already had to start using timesheets (bleh) and setting goals (BLEH)

    73. LQ*

      If they moved out of an easy commute distance (I currently walk, stroll really, to work and it’s about a 7 minute walk). I don’t own a car and I’m not going to buy one ever again in my life if I can manage it. If the building moved from my core “walkable” commute, or maybe easy easy bussing, I’d be looking for something else.

      There is also one specific manager who if I had to report to I’m pretty sure I’d be looking to leave. It’s been a pretty serious concern for me over the last year or so because I’m working really closely with her. On the upside I’m pretty sure my director wants to make me a peer of hers, not a report of hers. Which I could manage. And even though it really would have made sense for me to be reporting to her for the last year, he’s left me continuing to report to my boss (which, honestly makes no sense) who I get along great with and who is really just letting me work directly with director on this project and not getting in the way but being really supportive. (He’s a great boss.) I haven’t said this explicitly to my director, but I’m pretty sure someone else did and I think he knows. (If he didn’t, he would have just switched me over to reporting to her at the start of this project.)

    74. Kylo Pen*

      Was thinking about this today actually! I work at a JK-12 private school and I would quit on the spot if we had to work summers and breaks, and if we didn’t get a discounted tuition rate. I realize that sounds SO spoiled, but the reality is that our pay is low enough that those benefits are a huge incentive (especially the tuition).

    75. Typhon Worker Bee*

      Flexible hours (especially start time – cycling is safer and transit is faster/less crowded if I aim for a 9:30-10 am start)
      Casual dress code, headphones allowed
      Ability to pursue your own projects on your own time without being hassled about it
      WFH (I don’t use it much, but I have a long commute and sometimes at the tail end of a cold you’re well enough to work, but not to cycle or sit on a crowded bus for an hour each way)

    76. zora*

      -Hot desking (fully open plan MIGHT be a dealbreaker, but it would depend on the layout and what I could negotiate)
      -Location change (the bay area is huge, and I just can’t contemplate a 2 hour commute each way, even if it was a company shuttle bus, just can’t do it)
      -Drug testing (on principle)
      -Rigid work hours – I am currently basically 8:30 – 5:00, and I’m hourly, so I’m not as flexible as the exempt folks. But also, I’m not reception or anything, so if my bus makes me 10 minutes late, or if I want to take a long lunch to meet a friend, it’s no big deal. I would not be willing to work for a clock watcher again.

    77. AVP*

      Flexible schedule / working arrangement, and at least a modicum of input on what clients we take on. I’ll work with almost any client happily, but knowing that I can probably spike one every few years if they’re truly awful is a sanity-saver.

    78. Heaven*

      It’s kind of funny to see people who hate hot-desking in the sense that I always thought I would be one of those people. I was kind of worried about accepting a job where there was an open office layout because I thought it would be hideously distracting.

      Now I’ve been there two months I adore it and wouldn’t want to have an office of my own.

      The office floor I work on is flooded with natural light which is doing wonders for my serotonin levels at the most challenging time of the year for me (I have clinical depression, anxiety, and I’m pretty sure I get an extra layer of seasonal depression in the winter. Getting access to sunlight is a must for me).

      Also, I love working around so many other people! I’m quite shy but the nature of the layout means it’s easy to dip in and out of conversations with my team; talking for a five minute break or putting on my headphones to signal I’m in the zone as needed. If I was in an office, even a cubicle, I know I’d turn into a hermit, never speak to anyone, become lonely and convinced everyone hates me, and be miserable.

      We’re moving to hot-desking on the next floor down next month (it’s currently being renovated) and I’m really excited! I like the idea of being able to move between workspaces depending on what I’m doing, and since we’re becoming increasingly paperless as long as I have my laptop I have everything I need. The only thing I’m slightly worried about is getting to a workstation with an extra monitor for when I’m doing spreadsheet work, but given the average capacity in the office now I don’t foresee it bring a problem.

      My boss is also great about people working from home pretty much when they want to. Just this week one co-worker had a planned WFH day because she was having a new oven installed at her house, and another decided about an hour or two before going home that he was going to WFH the next day. So there’s a lot of trust and flexibility, which helps.

    80. Chaordic One*

      I once worked at a dying company and following layoffs, they did away with dental and vision coverage and this was accompanied by employees having to pay higher premiums for health insurance.

      It was “Buh-Bye” from me, and quite a few other employees. The company went out of business about a year after I left. I’m sorry they went bankrupt and couldn’t be saved, but the management should not have tried to balance their budget on the backs of their employees. The insurance things probably didn’t even help them to stay in business for another month or so.

    81. PB*

      I’ll agree with others who said hot desking. My work space is very important to me. I have to spend 40+ hours per week there (I’m exempt, so overtime and weekend hours happen). Currently, I have a private office. A year ago, there was talk about moving all of us office-dwellers to cubes, which was upsetting enough. An open office, or a hot-desking set up? I’m probably be gone.

      Otherwise, I can’t think of too much other than the obvious. If my job took away my retirement match, or drastically cut back on our insurance, I’d be out. Other benefits are always subject to change, and IME often as part of an overall cultural shift. My last job had a great inclement weather policy, which they torched a few years after I started, forcing employees to use vacation leave even if the office was closed. It came in conjunction with hiring freezes, raise freezes, decreased work from home, and the threat of eliminating spouses on health insurance and eliminating the most popular health plan. All of that together, combined with a toxic office, pushed me right the heck out.

    82. Weyrwoman*

      oh man. Hotdesking for sure – being able to personalise my space is core to my workplace happiness. Also if CurrentJob stopped certain benefits like healthcare.

      On a less serious note, I’d be really miffed if I lost access to the 3D printer.

    83. Jesmlet*

      Capping commissions, change in dress code, requiring me to go to multiple offices in a week (I work at the one second closest to my house but hate everyone at the one that’s closer), if my direct boss left and I wasn’t given his job (which I basically do 90% of anyway, but only because I genuinely like the guy), or if either/both of my closest work friends left because I only tolerate this job because of them. It’ll be dominoes up in here.

      1. PB*

        I had “if my direct boss left and i wasn’t given her job” on my list and my last job. Or, more specifically, if she left and Toxic Awful Coworker was given her job, I would have quit.

    84. sparty07*

      The biggest reason I left my last job was due to my direct manager leaving and going up one level to reporting to a Sr. Manager who didn’t understand how to show appreciation for us working until 11 a few nights a month. THe manager who left would make sure to thank us, praise us, etc, let us out early on Friday because of the long hours earlier that week.

    85. The Original Flavored K*

      Nothing specific in my current job, since it pays me beans and I’ve gone back to school fulltime, but in future jobs, if ANY perk that had been the influencing factor in my accepting an offer were removed, I’d be pushing back in whatever way my fiancee and I deemed appropriate, and then, if I was still unsatisfied, I’d be out the door.

      The good thing is: future jobs are likely to be in nursing, so I probably wouldn’t stay unemployed for long.

    86. Someone else*

      My position is 100% remote, with very little travel. If they decided I needed to be in an office, or upped my travel to over 3 trips/2 weeks a year, I’d bail.

    87. Oxford Coma*

      Dealbreaker: requiring me to seek coverage. As someone who has worked in education and food service, never again am I willing to work in a job where I have to find someone to hold my place before I can use the bathroom or answer the phone.

      (While you would think that would be an obvious job requirement that doesn’t change, as one of few women in my field I have sometimes fallen prey to the “oh, get the only other woman in the office to back up reception” trick. No.)

    88. Oranges*

      Unlimited PTO and health benefits (employer pays 80% of premiums and gives us $~1,000 in an HSA for the $2,500 deductible).

    89. Delphine*

      Going from having all vacation days available on January 1 to an accrued system. Going from an office + cubicle setup to a open office plan or hot-desking.

    90. Technical_Kitty*

      I’m actually thinking of leaving right now but will give the company some time to resolve. I work in a small group under a manager and the only other person besides me has the same title, gets paid more than I do and does 10% critical work to my 80% critical work. We also have the same title and my boss has agreed that he is not only very junior to me in the department but he is not doing a good job.

      My boss acknowledges it is an issue but because of restructuring his hands are tied right now. But he also gave me a line about how it all evens out eventually, I’m not very happy with that sentiment.

      So yeah, will be talking to a recruiter next week.

    91. Midge*

      If I had to sit next to a smoker. Second-hand smoke really bothers my allergies, and there are a couple of smokers in my open plan office. We’ll be moving into a new space soon, and people say it’s basically impossible to change your desk once you’ve been assigned one (for IT reasons or something). So I’d be outta there fast if my desk position was affecting my health.

    92. Kiwi*

      Hot desking. I don’t understand how companies get away with it without killing people’s health. When someone starts here, we get an occupational nurse in to make sure their chair, monitor etc are in the right place for them. If I had to hot desk, every time I moved I’d have to spend 15 min adjusting everything, or I’d get a migraine. Absolutely no way.

      And flexibity – and more, autonomy. If I got a micromanaging boss who wanted me at the office at very set hours or to have lots of control over my team’s work, I’d be looking hard.

      1. Specialk9*

        That’s not a common situation, in my experience. My mega-corp once had an ergonomics guy, but laid him off. Most places I’ve worked have not provided ergonomics.

    93. anonynony*

      If I started having to actually run things by the person who’s technically my boss… I don’t think I could handle it, because I just don’t respect him.
      Otherwise, this question is making me see how few perks I have–minimal flexibility, no working from home, no dogs, no parking, no private office, pretty much the minimum time off offered in my industry… dang.

    94. not myself*

      I’m quitting because the boss decided that if we wanted to keep our jobs, we had to move to the other side of the country. A lot of people are quitting for the same reason.

      1. Specialk9*

        You might check your local unemployment laws – quitting because they moved far away is often eligible for unemployment still.

  2. Sunflower*

    For those who have changed careers and had to re-write their resumes, how did you go about doing this?

    I’m in the process of tailoring my resume(mostly event planning and some marketing experience) for recruiting or sales jobs. So far, I’ve been using the requirements/duties in job listings I’m interested in and trying to work them into my resume. I’m curious what others have done.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I just put what I actually did. When I did my first major career switch, I just had about zero experience with what I ended up getting a job in, all I could do was be honest and hope someone took a chance on me (which is what happened eventually).

      You’re in a much better position, because sales and marketing have a lot of overlap. And recruiting can have recruiting events.

    2. MissGirl*

      I added a summary paragraph at the top (about 4 or 5 sentences) tying my past experience to the current role.

    3. Revolver Rani*

      I tried to frame my responsibilities in the previous career in terms of skills that were required for the new career. I was moving from patent law to technical writing, and I figured the folks evaluating my resume would not have a deep understanding of what I did as a patent lawyer, so I emphasized that a lot of really was actually a form of technical writing – I phrased my work as a lawyer in terms of what kind of writing I did for different audiences. I used my cover letter to help explain those connections.

    4. Thlayli*

      I have written resumes with a section titled “llama-grooming experience” at the front that goes into detail on my llama skills and achievements and “other experience” After that to basically fill in the gaps in my career history. In the “other experience” section I will mention any tasks or achievements that would be relevant to llama grooming also.

    5. NaoNao*

      I didn’t change careers per se, but I am looking at jobs that are a bit of a stretch for me and would be management, which I don’t have professional experience in.
      Starting from scratch, I tailored each job accomplishments to focus on networking, change management, pushing new ideas and products through the company, working with tons of groups and levels throughout the company, and so on.
      I kept the accomplishments but tweaked the job duties one liner (for each job I have a one line or two line max description of what exactly I do, as my job titles can be confusing and often HR or phone screen people have no idea what my job titles do!) and the accomplishments to match the jobs I was looking at.

      I also added in my 10+ years of retail management experience, and added an awards, honors, and publications section (to kind of pump up the profile and show possible transferable skills) and changed my “log line” (the one liner about me. In this case from, for example “Tea Experiences and TeaPot Materials Designer” to “Tea Service and Pouring Manager, Tea Service Expert, Tea Experiences Designer”—that kind of thing)

    6. theletter*

      I wrote a master resume that includes all of my achievements, and then I started creating templates tailored to the specific job listing. Copy the master and eliminate everything that’s not specific to that job until you’re down to one page.

    7. LAI*

      My advice would be to also address your career change in your cover letter. Explain why you are changing, and what about the new field particularly excites you. I have reviewed a lot of applications from people who are apparently trying to change careers but leave this part out – then it just looks like you are randomly applying for jobs that don’t fit your background, so it seems like you are maybe spamming every job opening you see. The person reading your application wants to know that you understand what job you are applying for, that you want that specific job, and they want to know why.

    8. Ramona Flowers*

      For me what helped was to stop thinking I had to list all the main things I did at each job, or list things in a way that was proportionate to the role. So for example, if I mainly brewed new tea flavours and also did a bit of coffee development, that didn’t mean mainly focusing on tea flavours and only devoting a bit of space to coffee.

      Instead, I started listing the main things that would interest that employer. If they were only going to care about the coffee, I focused on that.

    9. Emmie*

      Look at the job skills on a few job postings. What have you done to demonstrate experience in that area? Sales has skills like sourcing, closing, negotiating. You’ve probably done that in event planning by sourcing vendors, negotiating prices, and marketing the business. Likewise, you probably have some experience boarding vendors, ensuring a good experience, creating systems and processes to improve that, and sourcing vendors (transferable potentially to sourcing candidates.) So, you have more experience than you think you do. Others have talked about addressing this in your cover letter. I would not call this a career change. I don’t think this really is one. It’s possible that you love certain things about your job, and realize that sales or recruiting (be specific to the field in your cover letter) is what utilizes those skills best. Good luck!

    10. Wordy Nerd*

      I did what Alison hates and created a functional resume :) I was making a shift from project management into editing and really wanted to highlight my writing and editing experience, so I sorted my experience by type and put my writing/editing experience front and centre. I did have a section that listed my roles in chronological order, so that hiring managers could still see what positions I had held, the dates, and the progression of my career in terms of level (I’m government so the levels are very clear and broadly understood – it’s not like private sector where the same position can have 17 different titles).

      It seems to have worked – I’ve successfully moved into an editing role and in the interview they commented on my writing/editing experience.

    11. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      These are all amazing – I am looking to make a subtle shift in focus in what I do and was wondering how to rework my resume appropriately, especially as I am looking to move back from public to private employers. Given me a lot to think about – thanks Sunflower for asking the question and everyone else for answering!

    12. Anonymous Poster*

      My resume had my accomplishments, rewritten in the lens of the new thing. So for example, my old job I ran a lot of little projects, so I rewrote those into real ‘projects’ for more of a project management role versus what I used to do. In other words, I translated from my old job-ese to new job-ese.

      I also directly addressed that my old role did a lot of the same sorts of things, high level, that the new role did and drew the linkages together. So I said things like, “While in my previous role as XYZ I did this, I was managing a project of $W where we did ABC, from initiating up until preparation for initial project launch…”

      That sort of stuff. It’ll take time, but your job is to translate it into something your future job will understand. They won’t translate it for you because they don’t have the time and bandwidth. Good luck!

    13. WorkingOnIt*

      Thanks for the Q! This is basically what I wanted to ask, but completely forgot to get on here on time, and great answers from everybody – going have to play and see which works best.

  3. Is this a bad idea?*

    I am actively job hunting, but my company doesn’t allow access to personal email accounts from work computers – some IT protection thing – we were hacked a few years ago and it was a big scandal. Anyway.

    It is hard to keep up with email from hiring managers and recruiters from my phone, and I’m considering whether, in some situations, it makes more sense just to send an email from my work address. Here’s the question: if the only risk is that my employer reads my email and finds out I’m job hunting, I can live with that. But if it makes me look naïve and stupid to the people I’m corresponding with, that’s a separate issue. Thoughts?

    1. Dovahkiin*

      Don’t give your new company the impression that you’re using your current company’s resources to job search.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        This. Do you own a laptop? If not, can you buy or borrow a tablet with an external keyboard? A laptop on your lunch break is the answer to being able to compose long emails. (I assume that’s the issue–emails composed on my phone are short, akin to texts.)

    2. JokeyJules*

      I would absolutely NOT send anything from your work email. On top of the stress of hoping they don’t somehow find out, something about that doesn’t sit right with me. I’d liken it to searching for a new job from your work computer (which I hope you aren’t doing also!)

      Otherwise, good luck! I’m sure hiring managers understand you might not be able to respond within minutes during the workday.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Don’t do that. I would think it was inappropriate and strange to use your employer’s email for job hunting. I’ve had people hand me their current employer’s business cards in an interview, which I think is weird, but that may be more me. I already have their contact info if I’m interviewing them, and do you want me to call your work desk phone?

      Do you not have a phone you can check email on during the day?

    4. ANon*

      I wouldn’t do it. It could come across as odd to hiring managers. Can you check your personal email account on your phone while at work?

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Don’t do it! It does look “off” to the people hiring. Even if they assume your company knows you’re searching, it’s still not a great look and brings up all kinds of questions, including whether you’re aware of certain workplace norms/conventions. You are much, much better off replying from a home computer in the evenings if it’s tough to do so from your phone. In my experience, recruiters, hiring managers, and HR are very understanding about late-in-the-day emails from applicants, so you’re perfectly fine waiting.

      1. Lily Evans*

        Your last sentence is exactly what I was going to say. Hiring managers know you’re currently employed, so not responding during work hours is fine (and if they expect immediate responses, it’s probably a red flag anyhow).

      2. KimberlyInOhio*

        I’d even send a quick reply on my phone letting them know to expect a more detailed one when I’m not at work.

    6. Sunflower*

      I would definitely not do this. I think the risk of looking naive to hiring managers is actually greater than the risk of your company finding out. I also think it might be confusing to hiring managers if you’re using one email on your application but you are responding from another.

      Can you set up a specific email address to use for job applications? If the issue your facing is difficult trying to separate out what is a job email from a regular email/spam, that may help.

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      Don’t use your company email for your job search. It’s a bad use of company resources (especially for a place that will actually ban personal email use at work), and it will also mean that some potential employers may continue to try to contact you at that email address after you’re gone (yes, ideally, there would be some overlap, but what if your company lets you go for using your work email for job searching?).

      1. Lance*

        And that’s another key thing: you don’t always have access to your work e-mail. You do, however, always have access to your personal e-mail. That alone makes it very key to use your personal e-mail for such correspondence, since there’s no risk of losing any of it.

    8. Like The City*

      I wouldn’t do it. From an employee standpoint, I’d be concerned about my company finding out. I know you said you could live with that so it could depend on your employer but I wouldn’t want mine to find out. From a manager’s standpoint, if I received an email from an application that was using their current work email I’d have a lot of concerns. (Ex. Would they use other work resources for personal reasons? etc.)

    9. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Some employers wouldn’t care, but I wouldn’t do it, it will look bad to some of them, especially if you ask for them not to contact your current supervisor. Is the problem with notifications on your phone, or not having the time to look? Can that part of the issue be addressed instead?

    10. Artemesia*

      Can you carry a personal laptop to work to do that from? I am not that tech savvy but can you not use a gmail account accessed through your work computer if all else fails. It runs the risk of internal audit but would it not look ‘clean’ to the recipient? I would absolutely not do it from a work computer if the new company could see that you were so doing. This tells them you would be an employee who cheats the company and misuses company resources.

      1. NacSacJack*

        No, in my office, they have banned any email program. I have an off-brand, non-gmail account with a webmail UI and they block that. I can get as far as the UI, but thats it.

    11. Anony*

      Is there somewhere with WIFI nearby? You could bring your laptop and catch up on e-mails during lunch. Although it seems like it is unlikely you will receive an e-mail that cannot wait until you get home to respond.

    12. Ann Furthermore*

      Yeah, don’t do that. You run the risk of your current employer finding out, and if anyone on the hiring side notices, it could raise questions about your judgement, how much time you spend doing personal stuff during work hours (I mean, everyone does a little bit, but there’s a limit to how much is acceptable), etc.

      I used my personal email for my job search about a year ago and I’m still getting flooded with emails from recruiters. Next time around, I will set up an email specifically for job searching and direct everything there. In your case, you could do that, and if you’re concerned about not being able to respond right away, set up an auto-reply to say that your current situation does not allow you to check emails during the day, but that you will respond within 1 business day (or whatever is reasonable for you/your industry/etc).

      2. Lily Evans*

        It’s also a good solution in that OP could just ignore that email during the workday so they don’t feel pressured to reply ASAP, when completely ignoring their personal email might not be an option.

    13. MLB*

      Nope don’t do it. Just explain to potential new employers that you are unavailable during the times you are at work.

    14. Elf*

      Don’t send from your job email, but if the issue is typing professional-looking emails on your phone, you could consider sending yourself drafts of the emails and then just copying and pasting on your phone, which may solve your tech issue.

    17. Goya de la Mancha*

      Definitely don’t send it from your work email. Just not a good picture for the prospective employers. Can you access your personal emails on your cell phone? A tablet with nearby wifi access?

    18. C.*

      Seconding everyone on it being a bad idea, but I’m curious about having trouble keeping up with it on your phone. Do you have work and personal email notifications going to it and that’s why you’re missing things? Might be worth turning off work email notifications so you don’t miss personal emails, especially if you’re primarily using your work computer to access work emails.

    19. NylaW*

      Don’t do it. Just don’t. You never know what your company is monitoring, and it also can look bad to recruiters. If you’re using your current work email to job search, they would consider that you would do the same thing while you were working for them. The only exception would be if you were self employed and had your own domain and email.

    20. Antilles*

      In addition to what everybody else is saying, I’d just like to add that if your concern is missing an important email for a few hours, you really shouldn’t worry about it.
      Anybody who’s good at hiring will realize that employed candidates are often not able to reply immediately to emails – as long as you’re checking every evening on your home computer, reasonable people won’t be offended that you replied to their 2:00 pm email at 6:15 pm (you might not get a response until the next day of course, but they won’t judge you for ‘non-responsiveness’ or anything).

    22. Thlayli*

      I don’t think you should be job-hunting on your company’s time or using your companies resources full stop. If your phone isn’t sufficient borrow a friends laptop or find an Internet cafe or something.

    23. theletter*

      Set up your phone to notify you when you get emails. Hiring managers and recruiters should know that since you work, you may not be able to reply to emails until your lunch break or quitting time, and you may not respond with a lengthy treatise.

    25. Samata*

      I would caution against this. We once had a candidate we were on the fence about write a thank you note on her current companies stationary and send it to us. It was enough to sway us to not hire her. Just not good judgement.

    26. Jadelyn*

      I won’t pass on someone over it, but I’ll admit it raises eyebrows when I see a candidate’s emails coming from a current work email.

    27. Bad Candidate*

      Additionally, what if in a year or two some HR person remembers you and wants to connect but you’ve moved on from OldJob and no longer have access to that email. Unlikely but not impossible.

    28. Bea*

      My thing is you do not want to use two emails intermingled, that’s where the trouble starts. I honestly never notice what email address someone uses but you’ll lose the email chain if you suddenly respond from another source. Or what about when you’re at home and suddenly cannot access your work email?

    29. Uncertain*

      It’s not immediately clear why using your phone is making it difficult. Do you not have email access on your phone? If you’re worried about using the office wifi, use 4G.

    30. Anonymous Poster*

      It reflects badly on your professionalism. Your new job will wonder if you’ll be using their computer resources, too, for job hunting.

      It’s a larger issue than a current employer optics problem.

    31. Bored IT Guy*

      One thing that hasn’t been mentioned yet – if you are applying for an internal transfer within the same company, then you probably should use your work email address.

    32. Casuan*

      It is a very bad idea.
      Do not do this.
      An unintended consequence could be that if you did use your work email for personal reasons, your future self might think “I did this once & it worked out so I’ll do it again just this once…”
      That next time there might be easily avoidable consequences.
      Even if you don’t know you were caught- ie: it was discovered after you left- that could work against you. Someone who knows about it might be asked for a referral, or if you cross professional paths in the future, they might remember the discovery as dishonesty on your part.
      Probably the odds are quite low. Even so, do you really want to risk your credibility on this?

    34. Specialk9*

      If your company has any kind of monitoring, they are often looking for emails to and from from Gmail etc. Especially from your work address to your own private email. (It can be a fraud or corporate espionage thing.) I always stop and think before mixing streams that way, imagining a fraud investigator looking at it and how it would look.

      So no, don’t job search on company equipment.

  4. Pros and Cons*

    Thank you so much to everyone who responded to my pros and cons thread last week. It was incredibly enlightening reassuring to see other jobs in from other points of view.

    My counselor was the one who pointed out that social media is a very manipulative filter to view the lives of our friends and family. We only share what we want people to know, normally the highlights of our lives, while hiding the bad away. It’s true not just of jobs but with all of life’s activities; I just found myself especially hard hit with job difficulties, that seeing my friends post about their jobs frustrated me. All jobs have their struggles, and social media is there to show of the good.

    One friend is a children’s librarian and she shared on FB a fun story time she had with the kids earlier this week. But I know that the rest of her week was full of organizing volunteer schedules, getting yelled at about overdue book fines, and helping out people who barely know how to use a computer. So every job has its pros and cons.

    Would love to see more if anyone else want to share. Thank you again for all the insight; it was great to see that the grass is not always greener on the other side. Thanks!

    2. jm*

      +100 to all this. My social media feed is 98% positive, or positive spin when something bad happens (like my sweet old dog passed away recently, but I used social media to share cute pics and reflect on what a wonderful friend he was). HOWEVER, I’m part of a closed Facebook group for parents of kids with ADHD and behavior/learning struggles, and I am much more willing to share the good, bad and ugly in that group. One person from my general feed is also part of the closed group, which is kind of awkward.

    3. Forking Great Username*

      I’m in education, so things I share definitely have a rose colored perspective, basically because it’s just not appropriate for me to share negative information about my students! So you’ll hear about the ones who brought in poetry they wrote and how awesome it was on social media, but I definitely won’t say anything about the fight I broke up, the medical issues, the kids who are rude and don’t care about their grade at all, etc.

    4. kmb*

      I have really wanted to post about some work struggles on social media lately, but I haven’t been, because I know I will get sassy and mopey if I do. So that’s probably another reason we filter our lives on social media – not only because we want to show that we’re doing good, but also because we could hurt others or our reputations if we talk about the bad.

      (Also we just had another employee make veiled complaints about our CEO on facebook, so the point was hitting pretty hard that I maybe don’t want to be sassy about my empoyer at the moment and it might not be a good look)

      1. Specialk9*

        Exactly. I was mega PISSED about two things that happened at work recently – to me and to another person – but you’d never know based on my LinkedIn or Facebook posts. I give serious side eye to people who post negatively on LinkedIn. Less so for Facebook, bc it’s more appropriate to be more real rather than curated, but there is a threshold even there.

    5. kb*

      I have really wanted to post about some work struggles on social media lately, but I haven’t been, because I know I will get sassy and mopey if I do. So that’s probably another reason we filter our lives on social media – not only because we want to show that we’re doing good, but also because we could hurt others or our reputations if we talk about the bad.

      (Also we just had another employee make veiled complaints about our CEO on facebook, so the point was hitting pretty hard that I maybe don’t want to be sassy about my employer at the moment and it might not be a good look)

    6. Former Retail Manager*

      Couldn’t agree more about social media and the positive spin that everyone likes to post. It can be exhausting, especially when you know what’s really up. I feel it’s sort of like Disney…..they’re trying to sell me the “fairy tale.”

    7. Betsy*

      Not so much work-related, but I really understood this a lot more when I went home for Christmas and caught up with a couple of old friends. Both have exciting looking lives on social media (one has a lot of photos from a recent charity run and looking very fit, and the other seems to constantly be taking short breaks in other cities or sipping cocktails on the beach). Talking to them, I realised one of them had just had a difficult break up and the other was having some issues with trying to get a job in the field after graduating. I’m someone who goes for a balanced approach to social media– I like to reveal some vulnerability without sounding like a massive whiner. I often forget that others are presenting their nicest, shiniest selves online. It was a bit like I’d forgotten that other people also have difficulties, since I’ve recently been living in a different country where I mostly only know people on a quite superficial level. I was only seeing all my friends from home’s lives through facebook, and I hadn’t stopped to think how heavily filtered the perspective I was getting was.

    8. Lissa*

      This is so, so interesting to me as I feel like I have the opposite problem! Too much internet makes me feel like everyone is miserable all the time, and has also given me a skewed idea of how many people seriously struggle on a day to day basis with things like toxic families. If I read too many forums I start to forget there are actually quite a lot of people out there who have positive relationships with their families, like their jobs, haven’t had work environments that gave them trauma etc.

      I am one of my only friends who really likes their job and doesn’t have huge problems with it, and I spent 10 years in pretty miserable job situations – which I feel like I have to defensively mention so people don’t think I’m super privileged!

    9. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      I put the positive spin on social media to motivate myself to see the positives in my life. Because the truth is far from awesome.

      I’ve been married for almost 5 years now. I thought marriage would be the best thing ever, but it hasn’t. After my son was born three and a half years ago, my wife had post partum, which dovetailed into major depression and anxiety, along with agoraphobia. My wife won’t go to couple’s counseling. She’s only been to two therapists for herself. One session with the first, then refused to go for 2 years, then saw a second for 2 months and then stopped going. She has continued to see her psychiatrist at least, and has made some improvements in her mental health, but those have pretty much been baby steps.

      Every time my wife’s mental health improves, she takes 5 steps back. A few weeks ago, to combat my wife’s allergies, chronic hives, and intermittent insomnia, the psychiatrist put my wife on Prednisone. So this week she had a major change in mood and started throwing things, which has never happened before. My wife then put herself on a timeout and made an emergency appointment with the psychiatrist, who is now weaning her off the Prednisone.

      I can’t stand cigarettes and my wife started smoking 4 packs a week. She used to smoke in her younger days, but when we got married, she had been a nonsmoker for 3 years. She rarely brushes her teeth and doesn’t want to go to the dentist. She probably showers about once a week. She’s been unemployed for almost 2 years, and when I come home after a long day at the office, there is a 50% she will be having a massive anxiety attack when I walk in the door. She hates my parents, who are some of the nicest people you’ll ever meet, and they aren’t welcome in our home. But I have to tolerate her mother, who’s not very warm to begin with, for 8-10 weeks at a time when she comes to visit from Europe. About the only saving grace is that my wife is a wonderful mother to our son and her mental health issues haven’t impacted him.

      Through everything, I’ve tried to be the best, most patient husband I can. When my wife’s having a good spell she always tells me how wonderful I’m being to her. How much my support means to her. But when she slides back into her depression and anxiety, I’m enemy number one, her figurative human punching back.

      My frustration continues to grow because I feel like she isn’t doing everything in her power to get better and fight for our marriage and her mental health. And after 3 and a half years, I don’t know how much more I can give.

      Then I come to work. There is so much I love about my job that I really don’t want to leave it. But there are two things that drive me nuts about my work and make me want to leave. First, I’m a government attorney and our agency head, along with the # 2 in our agency, are terrible about monitoring and supervising the managers in our office, of which I am one. Normally I wouldn’t care because I’m good at my job and do whatever I can for my direct reports. However, this lack of oversight runs right into the second problem. About 5 years ago we reorganized our office to have two managers “co-manage” each of the three major divisions in our office. It didn’t work on the American version of The Office between Michael and Jim, and it doesn’t work in our office either. My other co-manager is a goldbrick. He’s the laziest person I’ve met. He loves giving our direct reports a hard time, and he is a universal a-hole to everyone.

      Even when I get him to agree to a consensus on an issue, he goes sideways at the last minute. When I call him on it, it says, “you’re not my boss.” When we go to our boss to resolve our differences, our boss throws up his hands, disclaims any responsibility to fix the problem, and says, “we pay the two of you to get along.” So my loser co-manager basically gets to veto through inaction anything he doesn’t like because of our hands off boss. And when I implement changes on my own to make our division better, the praise from above is directed to both of us, because we’re co-managers.

      By the time I get to post on social media, if I don’t post something positive, it just makes me sad about my life and what it has become.

      1. jm*

        Where’s the Le-Toose? – I’m sorry for the struggles y’all are facing. I hope things improve for you and your wife.

        1. Where's the Le-Toose?*

          Thanks jm! And I’ve always liked the expression “y’all.” We don’t get it enough here in California.

      2. Lora*

        I’m sorry you’re going through this.

        Sounds like your wife and my ex should hook up. He had shameful hygiene and wouldn’t go to therapy or stay on SSRIs, preferred to self-medicate with alcohol, weed and coke. Which didn’t work.

        Have had major depression. It’s hard to keep people from getting frustrated with how little you’re able to do, how little energy you can summon. So on that front I understand, but it’s also not your job to be her therapist/doctor.

        And it sucks extra because you keep hanging in there hoping the nice version you married will somehow reappear with the right combination of therapy and whatever. One of my uncles stayed with his severely mentally ill wife until she died, hoping that somehow the right combination of medication and ECT would fix her, carting her around to every treatment and hospital in the country. It didn’t. And you don’t want to be the bad guy who abandoned her while she was sick, because that would make you an a-hole, and who knows what would happen if you weren’t there to bring home the bacon and make sure the house isn’t a sty and there’s food in the fridge.

        Honestly, there’s no great solutions. I got divorced and after a looooooong recovery period got my act together and decided to focus on my career and a couple of hobbies I adore. I have friends who stayed together and plan to stay married until the kids are grown – to stay close to their kids who would otherwise have to live with a grandparent part time, as well as for financial reasons, and because getting divorced when there’s mental illness of that particular stripe in the picture is absolutely nightmarish. Neither option is any fun at all.

        I’m sorry. This sucks.

      4. InfoSec Semi*

        That personal situation sucks, I’m sorry.

        If you can, I hope you are working with a therapist for you, to support you in this really stressful life. Caregiving for a sick or disabled person is rough at the best of times, and you’re not describing the best of times.

      5. TL -*

        That really, really stinks and I’m so sorry.

        I don’t want to add on but I do want to note that your wife’s mental health issues are impacting your son. She can still be a really good mother but if her hygiene is bad and she’s having anxiety attacks every other day and is struggling with agoraphobia – it’s impacting your kid. Kids with mentally ill parents tend to be really, really good at hiding their problems from their parents, even from a young age, because they lack the security/trust necessary to let their issues show. But they still notice and it still affects them.

    10. anon library person*

      I once posted about a bad day at work and was chastised at work about it. They said I had to take down the post. We are not allowed to say anything negative about our workplace or jobs. This happened during banned book week and I work in a library. So free speech to all except the employees.

      1. Specialk9*

        That seems pretty reasonable to me. Free speech means free from the government killing or imprisoning you, not freedom from consequences or rules. Your work saying you shouldn’t complain publicly about work is… a pretty basic expectation. Use strict privacy settings if you really feel the need.

    11. Oranges*

      There was a study that setting expectations was incredibly important in overall happiness. I mean we have it so much better than people 200 years ago however we’re not any more/less happy because the way our brains work. We are content/happy when we’re getting the same (according to the social rules of what work gets what rewards) as other people in our current environment.

      If (generic) you see a bunch of people who’s lives look perfect of course you’re going to expect that from your own life and then be sad/depressed when it doesn’t happen. You can’t even remind yourself that they’re only posting positive things because it only slightly offsets the effect. It doesn’t cancel it.

  5. Amber Rose*

    Am I in the wrong here?

    We got hit with snowmaggedon yesterday. By 7 am the snow had mostly covered my car tires. By 10 am the snow was over my wheel wells and half my car was buried. The roads also had several feet of snow so even if I made it out of my spot I’d probably be stuck in the road. I called in “probably late” and waited to see if things would improve.

    The snow worsened. The news showed accidents on every major road. Husband’s boss told him to stay home. Visibility approached zero. I made the executive decision that my life is more important than my job and gave up on going to work.

    My supervisor had taken the day off but ended up going in to handle work. I get the impression most everyone else went in too. I feel like people are mad at me.

    Am I nuts or are they? I don’t want to die in a ditch for a job. In the space of a couple hours, over 100 accidents occurred. Isn’t my safety worth anything? Or am I just being a wuss.

    1. Lora*

      They are nuts.

      Source: lived in Lake Effect area and New England many years. If you don’t stay OFF the roads, the plow trucks cannot clear them in a timely fashion.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I don’t think you’re in the wrong. We’re in the Chicago area and getting that snow today. My whole team stayed home, my husband was planning to stay home anyway and they closed his work. I did have to physically bring a phone home to answer calls, but it’s fine, and better than being out on the road. Your physical safety trumps going to work. If other people want to put themselves in danger, well… that’s their prerogative, but I think your company and boss suck for putting people in that position.

    3. NoName*

      I live in a snowy clime. I’d have stayed home too. “Snow over wheel wells” is not safe driving – it’s tricky even if you have a tow truck. I have a neighbor who drives for a towing company and has to be careful not to get stuck himself on days like that.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        The only time I’ve ever actually called a tow truck: I had pulled into a circular driveway with some snow (mid-winter, lots of snow piled around) and it quickly turned into a foot or so uncleared rather than a few inches from that morning’s snow. The tow truck wasn’t equipped to handle that–they could only pull you out if they got to park on the plowed road and pull from there. (My husband, who is wonderful, came when he got off work and told me to take his car and our child and go home–I was freezing–and he eventually shoveled and traction matted it out.)

        The moral of this story being don’t assume the tow truck can pull you out if you get stuck. Stay home.

    4. Nutella Jar*

      Nope! I don’t think you’re nuts at all. You didn’t feel safe to drive in the snow, and I think being safe is the right choice.

    5. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Nope, you are not a wuss. Your safety is absolutely more important. Let them be mad, there will be times that you will need to fill in for them at some point and it will equal out. You can feel better knowing that you were not on the road and being in the way of plows and emergency personnel.

    6. AnonyMouse*

      Also in snowmageddon territory. I had a training in another building (would have required me to drive there) at 9 am. I texted my boss to ask if I could drive straight there instead of coming to the office first (to minimize the amount of driving I was doing today) and it seemed like my boss was also annoyed. But I agree, I’m not going to die over a job that would probably replace ASAP if I died. Someone gave me that advice once (“don’t kill yourself over a job that would replace you in a matter of weeks if you died”- obviously it’s meant to be more of a metaphor, but literally applicable here) and it has stuck with me.

    7. Snark*

      I think you’re on safe ground. The drive some people have to “go in to handle work” when they have no business being on the roads, getting in the way of snow removal and emergency response, utterly baffles me. It’s like, god damn, dude, you’re not going to get a medal for it.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Right? I had a couple orders sent in but I doubt the delivery trucks were able to get them so what the heck. The customers aren’t going to throw a fit over a snow delay of one day.

      2. DrPeteLoomis*

        Yeah, this is my big problem with the people who act like they’re a hero for going in to work during a snow storm. Like, no, actually you’re just getting in the way of those who have the real work to do right now – ya know like clearing the snow and saving your sorry ass when you slide off the road.

        Amber Rose, I think you are in the right here, but I totally get how you can feel wrong when everyone else goes in to work during conditions like these. Especially when one person came in when they had the day off. It might affect your reputation at work, which really sucks, but there’s not much you can do about it if everyone else is going to be unreasonable about it.

      3. designbot*

        or maybe they just live in a neighborhood that got less snow, is closer to the office etc.
        It sounds totally reasonable that Amber didn’t go in given her circumstances, but others might have had different ones.

        1. Fiennes*

          +1

          Different people will have different levels of difficulty getting through a big snow. Somebody who lives within walking distance can almost always get in; someone with an hour commute from a rural area that got hit hard probably can’t, etc. Here’s hoping your office folk realize this.

    8. Guacamole Bob*

      I think your coworkers are probably the nuts ones, but this really needs to be calibrated to the typical winter weather where you live. In the vast majority of the U.S., at least, a multi-foot current snowstorm (not overnight snow, but snow actually falling fast during the morning) would be reason to stay home and anyone who’s mad at you is being ridiculous, but there may be places where lots of snow is common and expectations are different.

      If there’s public transit where you live, was it still running normally? Did the highway department or the governor or police or anyone urge people to stay off the roads? Did local schools close? Those are some indicators of how people in your area are expected to handle different amounts of snow.

      1. Amber Rose*

        The trains were not running. The buses were, but with delays. The government issued a snowfall warning and begged people to stay off the roads. Public schools did not close, but I’m led to believe that’s because the one time they did 15 years ago, parents threw fits. Surrounding townships and private institutions closed their schools.

        AMA estimated 7 hour waits for a tow.

        1. Antilles*

          The government issued a snowfall warning and begged people to stay off the roads.
          This has always been my clear and unbreakable line.
          I follow the laws and orders of the municipal government as best as I can – if they’re telling me to stay off the roads, then I am not driving. End of story.

        2. Guacamole Bob*

          Yeah, your boss and coworkers suck. As did whoever didn’t close the public schools. At the point where the government is asking people to stay off the roads, you really shouldn’t be expected to go to work unless you work in emergency services or some other legitimately essential role.

          When I was in college I remember the dining hall being stripped to minimal staff during major weather events – but it was literally the only place for hundreds of college students who lived in dorms on that campus to get food on those days, so they had to mandate that at least a handful of people come in, even in terrible conditions. Same with people who staff hospitals, nursing homes, etc. Regular office work where health and safety aren’t immediately affected? Please stay home.

          1. Annon Former Grocery Worker*

            Barely above minimum wage job at the grocery store…essential workers. Mind numbing

        3. JeanB in NC*

          School wasn’t closed even when the govt asked people to stay off the roads? That seems kind of stupid. Plus, there were probably more parents that kept their kids home than those who actually sent their kids to school.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            That astonishes me.

            I think my own district’s sane closing policy of the last few years grew out of an early aught episode where they dismissed early, into the teeth of a ferocious blizzard that had brought most ice-covered roads to a complete standstill, dotted with turned over cars.

            1. Jules the Third*

              yeah, we had one of those about the same time. They let the schools out early, but after the ice started, and it accumulated much faster than expected. Some kids didn’t make it home that night – they had to go back to the schools bcs the busses couldn’t make it over the ice. Parents who tried to get home ended up gridlocked on ice. I spent 2 hrs going a half mile on I40 – forward two feet, back one, sliding back down the hill on 1/4″ of ice, wait 5 minutes for the next chance to move. There were easily 40 cars on the shoulder in that half mile; a few waaay off from sliding, but most running low on gas.

              After that, they have erred on the side of closing early. Ice is no joke.

              2. Yetanotherjennifer*

                Our district has a policy of not closing early, so if snow is forecasted for the end of the school day, they’ll cancel the whole day. It’s nice because then parent’s aren’t left scrambling to arrange child care.

          2. Talvi*

            Where I grew up, schools never closed. (I’ve never had a snow day!) School buses (especially in rural areas) would be cancelled during bad weather, but the schools remained open to ensure that those kids who did show up had somewhere warm to go.

          3. Elizabeth West*

            When I was growing up, if the buses couldn’t run then they closed the schools. It was a small rural community so they had to judge whether or not they could get to the most remote pickups. If the answer was no, we stayed home and played in the snow.

      2. Forking Great Username*

        I think a lot of it depends on how long it has been since the snowfall as well. I live in an area where regular big snows are pretty typical for winter, but the way we got hit very early this morning meant that as morning commute time came, most roads hadn’t been plowed and salted yet – there just hadn’t been enough time. And then you had the indicators you and others had mentioned, like the police issuing a warning to stay off the roads unless absolutely necessary, schools (even universities where students live on campus) closing, etc.

        So yeah, I’d say the employer is the unreasonable one here. I get it though – my husband did make the very unsafe drive in this morning. However, he works in an industry that is more important during winter weather, so obviously there’s an expectation due to that, and the employees know that.

    9. CheeryO*

      I live in one of the snowiest cities in the U.S., and my office would be a ghost town on a day like that, unless it was a very narrow snow band that only affected a handful of people. It’s almost not physically possible to get to work through several feet of snow.

    10. Menacia*

      Nope, not a wuss at all, considering the alternative to what could have happened. It’s too bad more don’t feel that way. I have done the same and did not think twice about it.

    11. MLB*

      Agree with everyone else – your safety is more important than trying to get into work. If they don’t understand that, you work for a crappy company and/or manager. Any reasonable person would understand.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      They are nuts.

      But. I have worked for many employers who did not see sever weather as an excuse for not showing up. The boss gives people “The Treatment” if they fail to drive through a CLOSED county during an ice storm. So you end up choosing between the ice terror or the boss terror. In the end I realized I would not die from the bad boss but I could die from the ice. The ice won.

      A person asked upthread about deal breakers. This is one my very few deal breakers. Bosses who make you come in no matter what.

    13. Future Analyst*

      I had the same issue when we had ice in Houston. My refusing to get on the road actually had less to do with unease on ice (I lived in the midwest for 14 years), and way more to do with drivers down here not having a clue how to behave on icy roads. I felt like my manager was annoyed that I didn’t make it into the office (we were only open for 2 hours that day anyway), but I’m just fine with that. You made the right call– almost everyone I know in your region (I’m guessing) stayed home today.

    14. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      I just shoveled 6 inches of snow, and it’s still falling. My office is open, but pretty much the only people there are the ones who don’t need to drive to get there or absolutely have to be there. There was even an email that went out from mgmt that it’s a snow day – work from home.

      They’re nuts. The best thing to do when it snows a lot is to stay home, out of the way.

    15. Mbarr*

      Sooooo I’m going to be the one person who maybe kinda disagrees? There’s so much context that determines an answer to this.

      1. Do you have the ability to work from home? Could you have brought home a laptop in preparation of snowmaggedon?
      2. Was the snow actually that high everywhere? Or just drifts in front of your wheels? Could you have made it to a main road that had been plowed?
      3. How often does snowmaggeddon happen where you live? If this is part of every winter, then you probably need to get used to it.

      That being said, as everyone else has stated (and I agree), your life is more important than your job. My dubiousness stems from a) being Canadian, b) there’s always that one coworker who panics over the snow when it’s part of every day life that we have to deal with here. My personal entertainment for snowy evenings is watching cars try to drive up the hill my house is located on, get stuck, and have the slide back downwards cause the road is too slushy to make it up the whole way…

      1. JHunz*

        Re. #3, I think any company that operates in an area that has multi-foot snowfall every winter needs to do some contingency planning for working from home or office closings when appropriate. It’s not reasonable to expect employees to endanger their vehicles and lives on the road in unsafe conditions.

        And just because main roads are plowed doesn’t mean it’s safe to drive. A couple winters ago my car was totaled by a city snowplow while trying to get out of my subdivison (he was plowing the wrong side of the road on a curve that meant we couldn’t see each other until too late)

      2. Rainy*

        In re 2: Even if the snow “isn’t that high everywhere”, you can die trying to “[make] it to a main road”. Not everyone lives a block away from a plowed road.

        I’d also tend to argue that if the majority of cars trying to drive up your hill can’t make it, your neighbourhood is probably pretty unsafe in inclement weather.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yep. I live four blocks from a plowed road and it can be a huge PITA to get to it if the snow is deep or if there’s a lot of ice. We don’t get our side streets treated. You can easily get stuck in your neighborhood here.

      3. Amber Rose*

        1) No. My job, the time sensitive part anyway, is to handle sales and process orders. There’s no way to do that from home, I need access to inventory and the shipping bay. Regardless, there’s no such thing as a company laptop here. My boss is anti-tech. We don’t even have voicemail on our phones.

        2) Yes it was. There was no wind, it just blanketed the city. Like I said, even if I’d dug out my car, the entire parking lot and all the side streets were just as deep. The main roads were being worked on, but main here means highway and downtown.

        3) It happened once last year, and prior to that it hadn’t happened in probably a decade. Lots of snowfall during winter is normal and expected. Snowmaggedon, where it dumps feet of snow in a matter of hours, is rather rare.

      4. Falling Diphthong*

        I live in New England, where would-you-get-off-the-roads-already?!!! storms probably happen about once a winter on average. Snowmageddon can be routine and expected, but still dangerous enough for the state to want everyone off the roads.

        Weekly October-April, sure, everyone keeps sled dogs.

    16. Snow Day Lady*

      I don’t think people are mad at you just because they went in and you didn’t. You might just be overthinking it. I live within walking distance of my office, so when it snows I can still make it to work unless the weather is so severe that they need to close the office. However, several of my coworkers have to commute and they will often be late or wont make it in on these days. I completely understand! I would never fault them for trying to be safe just because my commute is more convenient than theirs. That said, when this happens they always work from home unless the office is closed. So maybe next time you can just plan to work from home? If that isn’t a possibility for you, then I’d say don’t worry about it. It’s your health and safety on the line, not theirs.

    17. Akcipitrokulo*

      They may not actually think you should – unless someone actually says it, it’s best acting as if they agree of course you were reasonable! If they are being reasonable, that’s all correct, and if they are disapproving, behaving as if of course they are sympathetic is good!

      1. SP*

        Also in Chicago and everyone is in the office today who lives in the city is here because transit was running ok. Except you know who isn’t here? The boss who sent the all staff email saying we were expected to come in today…

    18. Bea*

      Hell no. I’m glad you stayed home and are safe. Also happy your husband’s boss is a logical person who values his employees lives more than a day or so of productivity.

      If you’re not in medicine or first response nobody should be out in those conditions

    19. Emmie*

      You’re not crazy. There are very few positions where there are exceptions to this: police / first responders, nurses / doctors, tow truck drivers.

    20. WonderingHowIGotHere*

      Playing sort of Devil’s Advocate here – did you upgrade your “probably late” to “Definitely not coming in”?
      Just a thought, but people could be a little ticked off by a lack of update? Not risking your safety, but if they think you might be risking it and then don’t let them know until the following day when you are next in – they could just as easily think you had died in a ditch in your attempt to just be “probably late”.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I did though. When I realized it wasn’t getting better I sent an email saying I was stuck and not able to go in.

        1. WonderingHowIGotHere*

          Then I completely rescind my advocacy and echo the other comments: your co-workers are the nuts ones, not you!

    21. Millennial Lawyer*

      It’s possible because you’re worried about this you’re misinterpreting others being mad at you for that specific incident. If even your supervisor took the day off, but then something came up I’m assuming, I would assume that it would be encouraged for others to take the day unless they wanted to.

    22. A.*

      I got stuck in the snow on my way to work once. Now I will not drive in snow or if it is icy out. It is an automatic WFH day for me. My safety is more important.

    23. LilySparrow*

      Where I live, we don’t get a lot of snow, but the terrain and weather patterns vary drastically.

      You could live on 1 side of town and get a dusting, or the other side and get completely iced in.

      You could have a dry clear highway to your office, but be unable to get your car out of your neighborhood because the entry road is a 45 degree grade in the shade, and stays impassible for 2 days.

      Decent managers understand that not everyone is affected the same way and trust their employees to exercise reasonable judgment.

    24. Oranges*

      One way to parse if you’re overthinking this: Does your office culture run on dysfunction? Are people who put out fires (usually of their own making) given raises/accolades while the people who actually follow procedures get ignored? Is it always about how much you give to the company and a feeling of one-up-manship?

      Those all point to signs that you’re in a sick-system and in those, oh man can people be… unreasonable.

      Otherwise you’re probably just feeling guilty about the script of “I should have tried harder” and no one else is actually giving you side eye. Okay, one or two might be but they’re being idiots.

    25. Elizabeth West*

      That’s stupid. You couldn’t get out of your house–it’s a valid reason not to go. Do they live closer than you? Are you on a road that doesn’t get plowed? At OldExjob, one person could never get out of his driveway if it snowed a lot–he lived in a more rural area. I could get there but if it were icy, I’d always be late, since I’d rather drive like a little old lady and be tardy than spin into a semi truck. Access does vary in a snowstorm.

  6. Nutella Jar*

    I have two things. I’m sorry this is so long.

    1.) I’m worried my boss’s “current” daughter-in-law and her former daughter-in-law are costing me my job.

    I work as a full-time teapot maker at a small family business with 6 employees, including the owner. When I was hired back in August 2017, we were super busy, but since December we had very little client work. 5 of the 6 employees are teapot makers, including the owner Mavis, a full-timer Cana, and part-timer Lucy. Our work involves customers bringing teapots for us to alter, and we give customers estimates based how long it will take to do certain changes.

    Mavis and Cana have a close relationship as Cana is/was dating Mavis’ son. All I know is he kicked Cana out a few months ago, but according to Cana they are still “dating”. Lucy is Mavis’ former daughter-in-law, though they are still very close. (No, Cana and Lucy don’t work the same hours, since Lucy’s ex-husband cheated on her with Cana)

    During our busy season, Cana would take work home and claim overtime, though her work would always come back incomplete and looked untouched. Meanwhile, Mavis would pay Lucy a special triple pay for certain tasks that are part of our every day job. For clarity, if Lucy did 3 hours on one task, she would get paid 9 hours for it.

    With the combination of false overtime, triple pay, and less work, our finances fell into a hole and we’ve struggling. Cana is on temporary lay-off but receiving unemployment benefits. Lucy has only worked a few days since December, and the other part-timer has not been in since December. Besides my boss, I’m the only full-time teapot maker at work every day.

    Our office manager (Erza) has been on temporary lay-off since December and is not receiving unemployment benefits. She warned our boss finances would go downhill from the fabricated overtime and the triple pay. However, Mavis is giving Cana work that I should be doing, and the few times Lucy has worked she still receives triple pay. We still have to pay taxes and such, and sales have been so low for the past two month that I’m worried my check is going to bounce. Erza told me I should start looking for another job and offered to help me job search. I really love what I do, and at my last and very toxic employment it took me a year and a half to find a new job. Our sales will increase in April just based on our industry, but I’m still worried about my job security. Should I try to stick it out since we will get busy again or start job searching?

    2.) We all work in one room at the same work station. I’m a shy, quiet, introverted person in my mid-twenties, while everybody else is over the age of 45. These ladies love to chat/talk/gossip as they work, and as a quiet person who is normally focused on my (tedious) work, I don’t normally participate in these discussions, especially since many of them are super personal (and probably unprofessional to bring up at work). There are many times when someone will ask me why I’m so quiet. Sometimes I can be bubbly (and sweet as these ladies put it), but sometimes I just want to focus on my work and not talk, especially since engaging in conversation can consume a lot of energy for me. How do I get my coworkers and boss to stop asking me why I’m so quiet?

    1. Eye of Sauron*

      “How do I get my coworkers and boss to stop asking me why I’m so quiet?”

      By telling them that you’re too busy looking for a new job to chat with them.

      Seriously, I think you have answered your own question in #1, this is a sinking ship that is being mismanaged. Just because the shenanigans can be hidden during the fat times doesn’t mean that it will be able to forever. Start looking for new work now, because sooner or later you will show up to work with a bounced payroll check in your hand and a “Closed” sign on the employee door.

      This won’t get better.

        1. Kathleen_A*

          Me too. Time to start looking, IMO. If it does get better, that will only be temporary because you have a boss who is completely clueless about some extremely fundamental things.

      2. Casuan*

        +1
        Even if things get better, it will be temporary.
        there’s a caveat:
        You already have more than enough evidence to know how dysfunctional this office is. So just be sure not to let the “good” (ie: if/when things are operating with some normalcy*) convince you that the situation isn’t as bad as you were thinking it was.
        Nutella Jar, I hope you find a new job soon!!

        *normalcy: the definition here is “an office that strives to function as the textbook ideal”; ideally the definition is whatever is considered normal in this office, although I don’t think you have a baseline for that

    2. Aaron*

      IWhen things get busy will you have an easier time finding other teapot makers that are hiring? That might be an option.

    3. AMD*

      1. Start job searching. “Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change.” That is a super dysfunctional environment.

      2. I definitely feel you here – I got in trouble at my first job because I was so quiet, everyone else pegged me as stuck-up and cold and so I was terrible mistreated. Make a point of saying hello, how are you, etc.. Find out a sports team, family member, and/or hobby of the other ladies, and make a habit of asking after them. “I saw the Pirates played last night, how did they do? Did you watch the game?” “How’s your adorable grandson?” Especially during break times. Then announce things like, “I’m sorry, I’m enjoying this but I need to put my head down and focus on (task) for a few hours.” Kind of thing?

    4. hiptobesquared*

      This sounds extremely poorly managed, to say nothing of the apparent ex’s of the owner’s son all working together?

      Even if sales increase, I doubt Mavis will change how she handles anything. If Ezra thinks you should leave, you might want to take that advise to heart.

      And in response to your second question – there is nothing wrong with being quiet, so a simple: “I’m a quiet person, it’s part of who I am, and would prefer to just focus on my work” should be enough. Being direct in these situations is usually best.

    5. Sunflower*

      Yikes this sounds super dysfunctional and talk about drama. Start job searching now. This stuff doesn’t change.

    6. Natalie*

      I really love what I do, and at my last and very toxic employment it took me a year and a half to find a new job. Our sales will increase in April just based on our industry, but I’m still worried about my job security. Should I try to stick it out since we will get busy again or start job searching?

      You’re kind of making it a mutually exclusive thing when it doesn’t have to be. You aren’t going to quit to start job searching, so there’s nothing keeping you from starting a job search now and just seeing what happens in April. Maybe you’re thinking (consciously or not) that you have to decide whether you’ll take a job offer or not before you even start looking, but actually you don’t! Cross that bridge when you get a job offer, and decide based on what’s in front of you *at that time*.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        That’s an excellent point. “Job searching” =/= “job changing.” So by all means, see how it goes, but in the meantime, start planning for if it goes badly, and that includes a plan to exit.

    7. Ann Furthermore*

      I would start looking for a new job, since you said it took you quite awhile to find the one you have now. I worked for a family-owned business in college, and while there were some great things about it (people were very close, the owners were awesomely understanding about me needing to study for exams or write papers and needing to cut back my hours for a week or 2 here and there, the office manager “mom” would slide me a $20 every now and then when I was really broke), it was a weird and dysfunctional place to work, and the family dynamics always made their way to the workplace. Bottom line — if you’re not a blood relative, or deemed “family” due to your relationship with a blood relative, whatever that relationship may be, chances are you won’t be part of the inner circle and probably the first one let go when the business starts to struggle. That’s not to say that the job or work itself can’t be rewarding, or that you shouldn’t work for a family-owned business, but it is something to keep in mind if the business is struggling.

    9. KatTheRussian (France)*

      As Alison often says, “family” businesses often have a lot of problems, and your job is like the poster child for them!
      I too think that you should start jobsearching. It’s not like you’d have to accept any offer that came along, but it does sound like things might go south very fast if you’re already worried about checks bouncing, so I say it can’t hurt to look around for something that you’d enjoy doing more.
      Also, believe it or not, there are workplaces where no one will ever pester you about why you’re so quiet all the time, and you may end up in a better work environment overall.

    10. Havarti*

      1.) Get out ASAP. That place is toxic even if sales increase in April. In family businesses gone bad, the outsiders will always be the losers. All that who is dating or cheating on who is the sort of drama you get with teenagers working retail. You don’t need that drama.

      2.) Given 1.), I feel like this is the least of your problems. But you can try some light-hearted comments like “Oh I was just in the zone” or whatever. If it were me and I didn’t care about getting fired, I’d sing “100 bottles of beer” at the top of my lungs when asked. Or do that cowboy yelling bit from the song “Big Enough.”

      But seriously, get out.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      This is a sinking ship because the owner refuses to change to better money management practices. You are probably still there because of your rate of pay. The chances are pretty high that you are being used.
      While I understand that it took you quite a while to find this job, you should start looking NOW. stat.

      Getting them to stop asking you why you are so quiet, is probably the least of your worries here. Pick a statement and keep repeating the statement. “I am just concentrating on my stuff here.” Craft a sentence in your own words that you will be semi-comfortable saying and use that sentence as your go-to. Once you get used to it you can build in some slight variations but with the same meaning.

    12. King Friday XIII*

      I’m hoping this is one of those cases where it’s helpful to have a dozen people tell you your office is full of bees.

      YOUR OFFICE IS FULL OF BEES. Start job hunting now. If you’re still there in April, you can see if it picks up. If the worst case scenario happens, you’ve already started your job hunt.

      1. Specialk9*

        Full of full of full of bees!!!

        Let’s recap:
        My company openly engages in fraudulent finances based on nepotism, overlooks slacker liar because of nepotism, and oh yeah the company as a whole is slowly driving off a cliff. It’s takes awhile to find a new job, should I start looking now?

        Uh, yeah.

        Yes indeed.

        Start today. Like actually start today.

    13. Falling Diphthong*

      Finances would go downhill from the fabricated overtime and the triple pay. However, Mavis is giving Cana work that I should be doing.

      Run. Run now.

      Or, okay, job search. Job search now. You are telling yourself the classic terrible relationship thing where if things were good once, they can be that way again if you’re just patient and wait long enough. Even if things pick up in April, the terrible financial practices and family-first mentality is going to bring things down soon.

      Just this morning I was reading a national news story, and reminded of Alison’s rule that there ain’t no crazy quite like small, family-run business crazy.

    14. Nutella Jar*

      Thank you everyone for replying and giving advice. Looks like I’ll be sending Erza my resume to get her feedback. While she’s been on lay-off, she’s been taking classes, so it looks like she’s planning her exist. Mavis is expecting her to come back when things get busy again, but I know Erza is so fed up and very likely won’t come back.

      The work culture is quite… strange. It’s almost like a girl’s club. I’ve seen Cana and Mavis cry, a lot of hugging and pats on the shoulder, Cana’s constant talk about her ex/SO/Mavis’s son/whatever and how he’s going through a midlife crisis, personal discussions of mental health, and lots and lots of gossiping.

      1. Natalie*

        For what it’s worth, in that kind of environment deflecting is a great strategy. Be obsessive about something innocuous in your life – your prize winning roses, your dog, a terrible reality show, doesn’t matter. “Share” by sharing a lot of shit you don’t actually care about and they won’t notice so much that you’re not talking about all of your deep personal life details.

        1. Casuan*

          This is great advice & I just realised I need to incorporate it more in my own life.
          Except my impression is that Nutella Jar doesn’t want to talk much about anything because she is introverted & just wants to concentrate on her work. I can relate!
          Which leaves compromise: “Yes, I had a great weekend. The weather was gorgeous & I spent lots of time outside with my dog, Fido. If you’ll excuse me, I need to get this work thing done before I lose my thoughts on it.”
          or: “I had a great weekend! Now I need to get to work.”

          If things are really verbally untenable, make your topic about something you know that person doesn’t like. That’s pushing your own limits although it can pay off quite quickly.

      2. Samata*

        I know you said your last job was toxic. But quite honestly this one doesn’t sound healthy at all. I think polishing up your resume and forwarding it on is the right choice here.

      3. Ursula*

        Sounds like you picked the right pseudonym for Erza, she’s definitely the one to follow in this situation!

      4. DDJ*

        I’m really sorry you’re going through this. My brother worked for a family business like this (fabricating timesheets for the owner’s children, people who got paid but did no work, etc) and when they were eventually bought by another company, it turns out that the owners had been slowly shredding and disposing of a LOT of files that would have gotten them into trouble. Which was discovered because entire months of financial reporting were “misplaced.”

        The new company ended up paying employees for weeks of work that hadn’t been paid yet, overtime, etc.

        Of course, turns out that the buyers are ALSO a family business and things are not really much better. Ugh.

        Not saying a family business can’t work, but I have yet to see a case where it does, personally.

        I agree with Natalie about deflecting/coming up with something super innocuous to talk about. Survivor is starting again soon, so that’s going to be my go-to. Also food. I talk about food all the time. People at work think I’m some kind of weirdo about food, I’m sure, but it’s such an easy thing to talk about.

    16. MsChanandlerBong*

      Oh my gosh, this could be a story taken out of my experience with my FIL’s business. My husband worked there for four years, making the princely sum of $7.25 per hour. He asked his father for a raise to $8.00, and his father said no. If he wanted to make more money, he could come in early and stay late. Mind you, he doesn’t pay any overtime–the extra time would still be at the $7.25 per hour rate. Meanwhile, my FIL’s second wife also worked for him, except she made $15.00 an hour (for the same job my husband did) and was paid overtime. She would put 100+ hours on her time card in a single week, and my FIL would pay her the first 40 at $15 an hour and the other 60 at time-and-a-half. My husband got disgusted and left the company. As you can imagine, their years of financial idiocy have caught up with them, so now the company is down the tubes.

  7. Volunteer*

    How do you respond (if you do) to co-workers who talk out loud to themselves?

    I sit next to someone who does that, and I never know whether I’m expected to acknowledge/respond to them. She does it at the same volume as she does when she’s actually talking to me, but if it turns out she wasn’t addressing me then it feels a bit like eavesdropping if I reply (much like you wouldn’t interrupt any other private conversation).

    1. ANon*

      “Sorry, where you saying something to me?”

      Hopefully done enough times, and she’ll start realizing.

      2. Naptime Enthusiast*

        I do this. Sometimes they’re talking to me, sometimes they’re on a conference call, and sometimes they are talking to themselves. I don’t think it’s impolite or eavesdropping either when phrased this way.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I just would ignore it. If she is really talking to you and you ignore it, she’ll repeat it more loudly and address you directly.

    3. NoName*

      I think if there’s any doubt, you can say something like, “Ginger – are you talking to me, or just processing?” and then when she responds that she wasn’t talking to you you can say “Ok, just checking. If you do need something from me, just get my attention first!”

      That is the approach I take with my kiddo who both talks to himself a lot and also will start addressing the room at large when he needs help without checking to see that someone is listening.

      It communicates that 1) you can hear her, and 2)you’re going to ignore her voice unless she explicitly asks you to listen, so you can start tuning it out.

    4. Snark*

      I think you can ask them to stop, personally. I get occasionally muttering to yourself under your breath, but if you’re talking to yourself in a conversational tone, that’s HELLA ANNOYING and you need to stop.

    5. Argh!*

      I used to work near someone like that, and I kept raising my head from my work to answer her. I asked her to use my name when she needed to talk to me, and otherwise I would ignore her. Sometimes I told her to stop talking when I really needed to concentrate. I know it took tremendous effort for her to do that for me.

    6. Maude Lebowski*

      Given that you describe it as her talking and you’re not sure if she is talking to you (instead of it e.g. being a case of it driving you nutso, which you don’t seem to imply), I think it would be reasonable to say, “Hey, Jane, I’ve noticed you talk to yourself, but I’m not quite sure if you’re meaning to address me. Maybe if you want to get my attention on something, could you explicitly ask? Otherwise I’ll just go merrily about my work.”

      1. Dinosaur*

        As an external processor who definitely talks to myself a lot, this would be my preferred way for someone (who wasn’t irritated about it but just confused) to handle it.

    7. Tableau Wizard*

      I have a coworker who does that. I can usually just ignore her, but it sometimes means that she has to call me by name or make some other obvious signal that she’s trying to talk to me in order for me to register what she’s saying.

      It might help if you had headphones in so that she has to alert you when she’s trying to get your attention. Plus it’d be easier to ignore her.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Start talking out loud yourself?

      I would just say, “You know, every time you think out loud, my train of thought derails and I have to start over.”

      Don’t expect any immediate miracles. The times I have used this I have gotten maybe a 50% reduction in out loud thinking.

    9. Sunflower*

      If it doesn’t bother you, I would just ignore it. I know I have done this by accident time to time (whoops!). I always directly address someone when I have a question since I assume they may be busy or working on something and not be able to chat right away.

    10. Thlayli*

      The guy I share an office with and work closely with does this all the time. He also doesn’t hear me if I ask a question unless I give him a heads up beforehand. Also both of us have lots of phone calls too!

      We have come to an agreement that if either of us wants the others attention we say “excuse me Fergus can I ask a question” first – and we basically ignore everything else we say unless prefaced by this. Otherwise it gets too confusing.

    11. Muriel Heslop*

      I am that co-worker (though I try not to be) and I advise you to ignore me. When I realize that no one is listening to *anything* I say I become more aware and diligent about keeping thoughts to myself.

    12. K.*

      I occasionally mutter to myself at work and it’s totally fine to me to have someone say “Sorry?” or “Are you talking to me?” Also if I’m at work, the muttering is always about work so I definitely wouldn’t consider it eavesdropping. It’s stuff like “Dammit, the internet is slow today” or whatever. Totally fine to comment on, IMO.

    13. Kittymommy*

      I occasionally talk out loud to myself and no I don’t expect anyone to acknowledge it. Heck, half the time I don’t even realize I’m doing it. And when I’m around others talking out loud to themselves, I just ignore it.

    14. Ten*

      Ugh, my deskmate does this. It’s SO irritating. I’ll just ignore her until she addresses me by name.

    15. LilySparrow*

      Unfortunately, I do this sometimes. I know it’s terribly annoying and I don’t mean to. Most of the time I can keep the quiet part quiet, but if I’m concentrating hard on something tricky, my filter slips. I usually don’t know it’s happening, or don’t realize until it’s already happened.
      This is why I try to get workspaces on my own and why working from home is better for me now that I have the opportunity.

      You’re not eavesdropping. If you really aren’t sure if she’s addressing you, just ask. This is the best way to reboot the filter.

      As far as long-term reducing the behavior, I wish I knew. I’ve been working on it for 40 years.

      But if youre trying to get her to stop, don’t pretend to be confused when you’re not. That’s passive-aggressive.

      It’s really no different than any other annoying, semi-conscious habit like humming, tapping, or talking too loud on the phone.
      Mostly a short conversation about how it’s distracting and could she please try to keep it down, is a good place to start. Then the occasional “you’re doing it again” or whatever your friendly equivalent may be, should suffice.

    16. Triplestep*

      I share an office with someone who does this. At first I just kept saying “What?” Or “Excuse me?” Or “Are you talking to me?” as natural responses. But then I got used to it; I can tell the difference now and know when to tune in. Because I really like this guy, I find it kind of endearing, but I can See how it would be annoying. I think had I not gotten used to it, my initial responses would have broken him of the habit eventually.

    17. Casuan*

      Duct tape solves most problems.

      That said, you have more appropriate options.
      What works for me:
      -Any random conversations are background noise, regardless of how close the voice[s].
      -Thus, I ignore the noise, whilst inwardly cursing at the person who talks too loudly whilst he’s on the phone, the other person who goes into too much detail about her dog’s intestinal issues when she replies to someone’s “How’s Fido?” query, myself for not being able to ignore her words, that poor Fido [who doesn’t deserve my inward curses] & the idiot who can’t talk because he’s too busy chomping his chewing gum.
      sorry, I digress…
      -The key here is that I’ve trained people that I will ignore comments unless they get my attention first by saying my name & that they might need to repeat it & wait a moment for me to process that they’re talking to me.

      This is actually quite easy to pull off & I’ve never had anyone be offended by it.
      “Jane, just so you know that I tend to filter all conversations as background noises so if you need my attention please get my attention first by calling my name/tapping on my shoulder/knocking & I’ll do the same with you. Is that okay?”

      :::checking to be sure the duct tape is still in my drawer:::

  8. Bobrowsky*

    What do you do to quiet the all consuming guilt that happens when you’re job searching / interviewing during a busy or stressful period, knowing your departure will cause everyone a lot of pain and stress? Especially re: the question about Fergus dropping work on his team, now I’m extra nervous!

    As reference, I’m applying for a few jobs and there’s a decent chance I’ll leave in the middle of the rollup to a huge event, for whom I’m a main organizer.

    I know it’s just business and you should do what’s right for you. I know the company would fire me in an instant if they needed. I’m not really feeling bad about leaving the company I’m feeling bad about leaving the people working there. I like them for the most part! And I feel so guilty knowing I am going to be the reason for a few super stressful months.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Sometimes you can’t help but feel guilty. But you have no reason to. Yes, it sucks for any company if someone leaves in the middle of an important project. Companies deal, though, they should be set up to do so. It will be a strain, but they can manage. Leave a lot of good documentation?

    2. Maude Lebowski*

      Ya, make your announcement to boss, leave good documentation like Bobrowsky says, give a reasonable amount of notice, offer to meet (more than once if req) with staff who will be taking over (that would be in addition to the documentation – gives them a chance to ask questions), keep the company as a good reference, move on to something that hopefully gives you lots of work satisfaction. Ppl might be cranky and stressed, but they’ll be understanding / get over it if you’re a good colleague about it.

    3. Artemesia*

      If it were in the company’s interest to fire you tomorrow regardless of your family need, mortgage or career they would do it in a heartbeat. Never assume the need to be loyal to a company in the sense of sacrificing your own interests. If you died tomorrow, they would replace you and not miss you in a couple of months. Never penalize yourself or tie yourself in emotional knots over a job. They do not do the same on your behalf.

      The only exception would be a company that say carried you for a long time through an illness or disability above and beyond your normal benefits. I can see feeling committed to sticking with them for some period of time after that. Otherwise, it is business. Do what is in your interest; they will certainly do what is in their interest even if it means not promoting you, not giving you a raise or laying you off.

      1. Lora*

        This.

        It took me many years to realize that I was in many instances the only person who gave a crap about people who didn’t give a sh!t about me.

        If they don’t care for themselves enough to get it together on their own behalf, let them drown.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You could just decide, “Yeah, I feel bad about leaving these people but I am going to do it anyway.”

      If you think people would not repeat what you say, you could express regrets to those folks. “I am sorry that this is such a bad time. I have really enjoyed working with you and I do wish you the best.”

    5. Sunflower*

      I think this is natural and a lot of people feel the same way you do! It’s very normal- what’s not normal is letting the feelings affect your job search or not leaving because of the feelings of guilty. All you can do is remind yourself the company will still function and succeed without you. I’m sure your coworkers are sane people who won’t take it personally and understand!

    6. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      If you have a bit of spare time one day, you could compile a short list of consultants who seem like they could pick up where you left off? Just so you can present it to the company as an option. I don’t think you have an obligation to do it at all, but it might help give your co-workers footing to request some outside help!

    7. Jules the Third*

      One way to ease the guilt is to be comfortable you’ve done what you can to make their transition easier. Some strategies for that:
      * Focus on leaving your work in good shape, and with good documentation – for example, both big picture project overview (timeline / tasks) and detailed list of the vendor contacts / phone #s and responsibilities, posted in a project team room.
      * See if there’s someone you can cross-train on what you’re doing before you give notice.
      * Consider an extended notice period – 4 / 6 weeks instead of 2.
      * Consider offering them 1 – 2 meetings after you leave to answer specific questions.

      All subject to your health and time constraints, of course.

    8. peachie*

      Oh boy, I don’t have an advice but I am right there with you. I’m leaving my job a week before a major conference I’ve been planning for a year and was supposed to run by myself. Also, I work in a department of two and I am genuinely worried about the number of things which only I can do. I don’t feel bad for the company, exactly, but I feel so bad for putting my boss, who is an amazing boss, in a rough position.

    9. Betsy*

      I have a really similar issue. I have a job interview, but I know the new job would want me to start before my current contract ends. I feel terrible for even thinking of leaving, and I’m hoping I could finish teaching for this semester before starting at the new job, but I don’t know if the timelines quite work out. I am super stressed about this, but I don’t want to miss out on what could be a great opportunity.

    10. Sam Foster*

      Let it go. It’s a normal feeling but as you stated, you have to do what’s best for you and any one of your coworkers or bosses would do the same thing. Empathize with those who remain but guilt is far too much.

    11. Casuan*

      Paradigm Shift:
      You’re in an accident & away for several months. The company will stay in business & your colleagues will sort things out without you.
      Because life happens.

      You, In the Real World:
      You have decided to job search & you might be leaving the company. The company will stay in business & your colleagues will sort things out without you. You can help them by documenting what they should know, especially the things that aren’t easily discoverable (eg: the spreadsheet no one thinks of tho you find it a good resource, to only talk to Fergus at Teapots Inc because he’s the only one who really knows anything over there, etc).
      Because life happens.

      From my experiences, I’m never as vital as I seem to think!
      The work will persevere without me & so will my ex-colleagues. I’m valuable, just not vital.
      :-)
      Good luck!!

  9. TJ*

    I’m the one who sent in the third question in this morning’s 5 answers post. I wanted to thank Alison. It was a great answer. It was good advice and exactly what I needed to hear. I am appreciative of your response. I am baffled by the comments though. I didn’t really see anyone answer my question. I’m stunned people are urging me to disregard the wishes of my former employee who was fired. The police arrested the user of the device. I don’t know why people would think there was no investigating the company devices and I needed to tell them to do it or about a “cover-up”. The first thing the police did was search all company devices at the same time they searched the user’s personal ones. There was no cover-up. Nothing was found on any other company stuff and no one else was involved. The company didn’t even know until the police told them. I’m not a police officer and in no way will tell them to do anything.

    The police know she was fired. They have no standing to do anything. It is not a criminal matter anyway no matter how wrong it was it isn’t even illegal under the laws in our country. She has no case. The police know and they don’t care because there is nothing they can do about it. The arrest has been in the news. I mentioned it in my post. My fired employee didn’t want to keep the entire story hidden. She just doesn’t want it public she was the one who told the police or got fired. She doesn’t want her name in the news. She doesn’t want to sue and can’t anyways because under the law her firing was legal. The company never threatened her. She has a new job now. She wants to be left alone. I stated as much when I wrote in. I’m stunned people want us to sick the reporters on her even after what I said when I wrote in. There’s no way me or my other employees will disrespect her wishes in spite of the suggestions in the comments. Although I am beyond pleased with Alison’s response I can’t say the same for the comments at all.

    I will say thanks to Alison again for offering helpful advice and actually answering my question. I do appreciate it. Your advice is why I read here every day.

    1. Eye of Sauron*

      If it helps I was a little baffled in the comments myself. I’m sorry you have been in the position you have. It must be absolutely horrendous to work in this situation.

      1. hermit crab*

        I was surprised too. I think maybe people were so taken aback by the horribleness of the situation that they kinda went into overdrive.

        TJ, I’m really glad to hear that your employee has a new job! I hope none of you has to go through something like this ever again.

      2. Specialk9*

        The cover-up we were talking about was the one in which they apparently thought the right approach was to tell them first and not the police. Why? That’s not how convictions happen, in fact it’s how convictions fail. Because they have already acted in malignant bad faith for firing over following the law over policy, we are assuming that the only reason they would want to know before the police is to try to cover it up. (It’s not farfetched, it’s what Subway, Uber, and many other companies have done.) I didn’t see anyone thinking she had been threatened, I may have missed it – if it was said it wasn’t said often.

        It may not be illegal in your country, it is in the US. Sorry, you didn’t mention that you’re not in the US, and we can’t know what laws apply to you if you don’t tell us. We’re not mind readers.

        I thought there was a good dialogue about whether the fired person should have the final say, or whether there was a broader responsibility to reveal a corrupt company. You may have tuned it out.

        Sorry our commenting didn’t meet your needs. We’ll try to provide free services more to your liking next time.

    2. oh my*

      OP I’m sorry for all the conflict you are in the middle of. For the reporting employee, I wonder if there is sometype of whistleblower or discrimination protection? This is way beyond some internal office conflict. For all you know if it had not been reported to the police, it may have been swept under the rug. Has your former coworker spoken to a lawyer to at the very least protect herself, find out if there is anything she needs to do to protect her career. I too am surprised by some of the comments. I think Alison’s advice to support your team as best you can is the way to go. This scenario would leave a bitter taste and I personally would look for another job. Perhaps once you leave, you would be able to better support your former coworker with a reference and better communication.

      1. Amber T*

        I think what TJ is saying is she wants to let sleeping dogs lie (lay?). She played her part, she did exactly what she was supposed to do, and she still got punished, and there’s unfortunately nothing she can do about it. She just wants to move on. It sounds like she has a new job and is starting the process.

        TJ, best of luck to you and the rest of your coworkers – I hope you all get out of there ASAP and into better, less toxic jobs. I hope upper management sees the error of their ways (hopefully in the form of a mass exodus). And I hope your former coworker moves on and truly knows how awesome she is.

      2. AVP*

        There was a really good interview with Peter Buxtun, the Tuskegee whistleblower, published recently in the American Scholar. It talks about how hard it is to “see something / say something” for exactly that reason – outside government employees there’s really not a system in place to help people in this situation. It mentions a small Harvard study of people who blew the whistle on fraud/corruption at pharma companies, and how in the end most of them felt like it wasn’t worth it due to the personal devastation – “30% were financial ruined.”

        It was really an eye-opening story – I think as Americans we expect there to be protections for this and are surprised when they just don’t exist. I’ll post the link below if anyone is interested.

        2. Grits McGee*

          I was reading a another article recently (maybe in the Washington Post?) that said that even for federal workers, there’s almost never a happy ending for the whistle blower. I have a friend who reported misuse of a federal grant. (The nonprofit was using the money to keep the lights on rather than for the program it was intended.) Her position was funded through the grant, so when it was revoked she lost her job and the nonprofit folded. It’s been years since then, and her career and finances still haven’t recovered.

    3. Buffy*

      I just came from that post and I agree, some of the reactions were odd. I think sometimes that’s the nature of groupthink, everyone makes an echo chamber a bit. Glad to hear she has a new job.

      1. Nope*

        I think some people are worried that because the employee was fired, if this happens again then a future employee won’t report it to the police because they want to save their job and the company will hide it. But that doesn’t justify some of the replies, especially the ones advising OP to throw their employee under the bus with the media against her wishes.

    4. MissGirl*

      People are angry and can’t accept there isn’t some big justice for your coworker or comeuppance for the company. Rather than accept that sometimes situations just suck and there’s not much else to do, they are desperately coming up with ways for the company to get in trouble.

      Your coworker did the right thing, and I’m sorry she was punished for it. I hope you find something soon. Good on you for supporting your team under trying times.

      I think if I ever write in, I’ll avoid the comments.

      1. Jules the Third*

        They used to be good, adding specific and interesting experience / details that Alison doesn’t have experience with / time to go into. Google “ask a manager domestic violence Marie” for a great example of the caliber of commentary that used to be normal (though that one is outstanding in any forum).

        Unfortunately, AAM comments are becoming like every other commentariat on the web as she becomes more popular. I’ve watched this evolution before, it sucks. But it takes a lot of time and effort and tech to curate comments into something that doesn’t suck, once you hit a certain level of popularity.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Eh, I think that stuff is still there. There’s more noise in addition to it than there used to be, but that’s the function of there being a larger number of comments. I agree there were advantages when it was smaller, but I still find the comment section far more civil, thoughtful, and useful than the vast majority of others.

          1. Andraste's Knicker Weasels*

            I agree. I’ve been in countless communities/commentariats over the years, and this site is one of the absolute best.

            Sure, sometimes people can get focused more on unhelpful advice because they’re shocked/upset that something happened. But plenty of communities regularly insult each other in snide, nasty ways and focus on snarky zings than being helpful. This place is still a haven from that.

      2. Oranges*

        Agreed. With the first part.

        For the second part I think it depends upon what I wrote in about. Something that will make other people see red? Then yes comments = skipped. Normal stuff, probably not. But that would be my choice. Other people will choose what’s best for them not me.

    5. The Tin Man*

      For one, the company ordered you to not give a reference to the fired employee OR the employees quitting over this? I am fully on board with you ignoring that.

      I hadn’t seen the comments about it yet, it sounds like people want the company to be punished and the best way for them to be punished is to go public. This ignores that the fired employee would have to go public and that would affect her life. It’s saying that she should sacrifice her privacy to make this scummy company pay.

      There is no good answer beyond what Allison said. If that many people are quitting or job hunting it will affect the company, but who knows by how much.

      Good luck with the job search to you and everyone else leaving!

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        I think what people forget in wanting to make the bad guy pay is, that other good people can lose out. If I were the fired employee I would be thinking about what results my actions may have. If fired employee went to the media and it blew up there could be bad consequences for coworkers who did nothing wrong. While the OP said many of the staff are furious and want new jobs anyways what if bad press led to decreased revenue and eventually lay offs? People on social media these days fire first and never ask questions. Innocent bystanders (aka other employees who had nothing to do with it) could get ripped to shreds.

        It sucks, and bad things happen, but I think the fired employee took the right route. Agree with you about Alison’s advice.

    6. LKW*

      Consider that for most of us – the response was immediate outrage and wanting to right a wrong (your friend being fired). Of course we say this from a position where we have no obligation to your friend, no obligation to keep working for a bad company and no idea of the laws of your country.

      It’s the initial reaction to hearing such a terrible story – both in the initial crime and the subsequent firing. But yes, your question wasn’t really answered. And I don’t know if I have anything other than what Allison advised. But good luck in finding a new job and I think you’re right to still provide references even though you’ve been told not to.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        It’s the old axiom – no good deed goes unpunished.

        The coworker did the right thing and got penalized for it. That is definitely going to get people up in arms in any circumstances, but especially when you’re dealing with something so egregious as CP.

        I am glad to hear that she’s found new employment and I wish TJ the best of luck in his own search.

    7. Bagpuss*

      Thanks for commenting,. It’s always good to hear back from LWs.

      I suspect that the reasons (or one of the reasons) people were suggesting that you disregarded your coworkers wishes was because the actions of your company were so egregious that people want to see them punished for it – on the fact of them, sacking someone for reporting a crime (particularly a crime of this type) is so outrageous that people don’t want to accept it.
      I think also that there is a concern that if the company has a policy where staff are discouraged (bu the risk of being saved) from reporting something like this, it creates an environment where it is less likely that the next person who stumbles across something of this nature will feel able to report it, out of fear for reprisals, so it help to create a situation where crimes are more likely to go unreported.

      Personally, i don’t think you should ignore your coworker’s stated wishes but I think that you would be doing a good thing if you were able to find a way to publicise what happened, and how the company behaved, without ‘outing’ her or bringing the press to her door. whether there is any way to do that, I don’t know.

      1. Anony*

        I think many people either skimmed and missed the comment about what the coworker wanted or forgot about it in their outrage.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          What the co-worker wants is not the end of the story. If the co-worker wanted the LW to keep quiet about a crime, would that be OK? I wouldn’t think so. And some would argue that the company is committing a crime by firing a whistle-blower.

            1. Jerry Vandesic*

              That sort of determination needs to come from a judge, or at least someone well versed in the law. By keeping it all covered up, it’s hard to rigorously determine legality.

    8. Muriel Heslop*

      What a crummy situation for everyone (except the person who was arrested – he’s terrible.) I think that offering to be a reference for your former employees and for others who may be looking after is the best you can do. I’m sorry your company handled everything so badly and I hope you find a new job with a great company very soon. Good luck!

    9. Michelle*

      I just reread your submission. It didn’t say that the fired employee had already found another job. The fact that this woman might have been unemployed could have caused some of the comments.

      Also, this line: The company says she should have notified our manager so the company could investigate and interview both her and the employee before deciding whether or not to call the police . That makes it sound like the company may have decided not to call the police.

      I think your former coworker did the right thing and it seem really unfair that she lost her job for following reporting laws regarding child pornography. Your company sucks and should be ashamed of their self.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This sounds like a variation of what the Catholic church went through. Child abuse of any sort is not an internal problem. It’s an external problem because it’s against the law. “Solving it” internally is not an appropriate or ethical response at all. (And it’s also not a solution, either.)

      2. Kittymommy*

        Yes this. The directive from the company about bit being a reference coupled with the admonishment that they should have been consulted first, before the police and implying that they may not inform about the crime, definitely got people up in arms. And coming on the heels of the USA gymnastics and Hollywood scandals, ehh, there may have been more passion than necessary in a comment thread.
        That being said, some streams did take a decidedly unpleasant turn and that wasn’t cool at all.

      1. Natalie*

        You mean the comments on that post? There is a post near the bottom from TJ, and as far as all of the individual comments if I was them I wouldn’t even know where to start.

        2. fposte*

          And it’s also not the OP’s obligation. She’s been kind enough to fill in the picture for us here; she doesn’t have to do that, let alone do that in particular spaces or more than once.

          1. Mike C.*

            I don’t think there’s an obligation either.

            It just feels a little unfair to complain about people in a separate area without even addressing them directly. More importantly, there are often important details that an OP can add later on that greatly improve the understanding and usefulness of the ongoing analysis that occurs in the comment threads.

            1. fposte*

              One of the things that never stops fascinating me about this site is the way people tell their stories and how different that is from what I’d like to know. I bet if you’re doing something like unemployment hearings that must be an ongoing challenge.

            2. Ask a Manager* Post author

              The OP did respond over there as well.( But I strongly agree with fposte that letter writers have no obligation to engage with the comments at all, or engage in the exact way people want them to.)

            3. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

              I don’t think posting in a separate thread was intended badly. I think it’s just that the situation is really personally and professionally taxing, and engaging dozens of individual commenters can seem overwhelming and exhausting when the letter is your lived reality. I think many commenters come to the site for the discussion, which I often find thoughtful, passionate, and constructive, but these situations are still distant to us. A lot of letter writers just write for the advice and don’t intend to hash out their situation with strangers. I think that’s understandable.

              1. Lissa*

                Yes, I agree! I imagine that had the OP engaged with some of the more intense comments, the response would not have been an immediate “oh, I get it now!” but rather more arguing and explaining to the OP why they were super wrong, how if the commenter was in that place, they’d do X and Y, then the OP would have to come back again to say, well no that wouldn’t have sense because of other things….it would be extremely emotionally difficult, much more so than for the people angrily dashing off a comment about a situation they only have a bit of into about. I’ve seen this exact thing play out where OPs end up going into the comments and arguing with all the commenters who see their situations differently and honestly it rarely ends productively or well.

    11. Todd Chrisley Knows Best*

      I think so much of it may be because from what I have seen, a lot of the commenters here are in America (although we do have a good amount of diversity!), and given our current climate around crimes of a sexual nature, it was just an addition of fuel to the fire many are feeling right now. Of course, I don’t think this would be taken lightly at any time, but maybe a lot of us read into the fact that the company was outraged that she went to the law first, and it almost seemed (given recent experiences especially here in the American media, I can’t speak for other countries), that maybe the company would have wanted to just cover it up, like has been happening here. I think it’s largely an emotional reaction, which doesn’t make it somehow less irksome for you, I know.

      If the former employee wants to leave it alone, that’s certainly fine. It also seems you’re in a different country, maybe? Here the firing would have been pretty illegal, I think, so perhaps that also didn’t come to mind during the outrage.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        I have serious doubts about if this situation would be illegal in the US. I am not a lawyer, but I read reddit’s legaladvice thread and the amount of insane sucky things companies do to their employees that is perfectly legal is amazing. So it would not surprise me if this was legal in the US and the company could come up with some BS excuse about Not to mention the many letters Alison gets where companies do horrible things yet nothing illegal.

        1. Nope*

          I think that, were it to come out that a company had a policy of requiring employees to report crimes to management first and crimes had been covered up because of it, that would be illegal.

          Unfortunately, I think in most states having the policy at all or firing employees who didn’t follow it would be questionable but not necessarily illegal. Even if it was considered wrongful termination, in an at-will state an employer would just have to wait a couple months and then make an excuse.

    13. Little Twelvetoes*

      Your former coworker is a hero and deserves to have her wishes followed. You are a good person for respecting her wishes, and I would applaud your decision to ignore the company’s rule about references.

      Makes for an interesting “Reason for leaving previous employer” – “I /coworker got fired for turning in a pedophile to the police.”

    14. Lora*

      “The first thing the police did was search all company devices at the same time they searched the user’s personal ones. ”

      This is relevant. Many police departments are not sufficiently funded or trained to investigate or prosecute computer-related crimes. Many many many. There have been high profile instances of women getting death threats and rape threats and people dying in SWAT attacks where the police just shrugged and said, “well don’t go on Facebook then” and didn’t know where to begin with it because that’s really not what they are trained for.

      Without this information, it appears very much from your initial letter that the company was trying to cover up something shady by firing your colleague.

      1. Perse's Mom*

        …and stating she should have reported it to them first so THEY (the company) could decide whether or not child pornography was serious enough to report to the police… oh and also you’re forbidden from giving her a reference! Those are not details that should be dismissed out of hand; they’re very serious, concerning behavior!

    15. essEss*

      I started to ask if this was a violation of the whistle blowers act. I did a quick google search and I was stunned to find out that employment protection for alerting law enforcement to illegal practices is only protected for federal employees (or military/contractors on federal jobs)

      1. fposte*

        That is a limitation of the actual federal Whistleblower Act, but additional protections often apply at a state level.

        (Obviously it’s a moot point since it turns out this person wasn’t in the U.S., but it’s useful to know.)

      2. Specialk9*

        I posted 18 USC 1513, which protects one from being fired for reporting a Federal crime. Not apparently applicable for the OP after all, but useful for other commenters in the US.

    16. Jules the Third*

      The comments section has not been as thoughtful as it used to be. I avoided reading those this morning because I have been so disappointed lately, and I could tell that people were going to be intense about your letter.

      Kudos to you for respecting your employee’s wishes. After the kids, she’s the person most harmed by this, and she’s the person whose wishes (I think) should be respected.

      I wasn’t entirely sure what you were asking, if that helps explain the comments. Alison answered “How can I best help my current employees”, but there’s room for interpreting that post as an ask for “how do I get justice for my fired employee” and “how do I make my employers become decent human beings”, which are probably the questions that lead to weirdness in the comments.

      If you want to poke at those last two questions:
      It wasn’t clear to me how high the issue went in your company – I would say that if this was just a level or two above you, you might have room to take the issue to the top levels and explain to them the moral, morale, PR and legal risks of the company’s reaction to this situation, and ask for them to review their policies with this in mind.

      If the top levels of the company were involved with firing your employee, or set the policy in the first place, well, your boss sucks and they’re not going to change.

      1. Annie L.*

        Hate to concur because I love this site, but yes, I believe you are right; the level of vitriol in the commentariat has increased. Not sure if it is due to the site becoming more popular and/or because the national discourse in the U.S has become so debased… ugh. Alison’s advice, thankfully, remains spot on.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I think one problem is that people forget not every situation has a pat solution. Life isn’t a TV show where the problem is wrapped up in 45 minutes, or with just the right suggestion at the right time. Things aren’t always as straightforward as all that.

          It’s tempting to what-if it to death, but that’s not always helpful, especially if there is nothing anyone can do about it. As much as we want to do something, sometimes we can’t, and we just have to say “Well that sucks,” and let it go.

          1. Tedious Cat*

            Yep. I was talking with a friend and fellow reader about my frustration with the dogs in the office question from this week: “It’s not fair to lose a perk like that while other people in your office get to keep it… but it’s also not fair to have to deal with an animal you’re terrified of at your job. Sometimes there are no good answers.”

    17. DaniCalifornia*

      I too thought comments about sicking reporters on the company was out of place. I get that what the company did was a terrible thing to your employee who reported the crime. But in many cases and in many countries it would not have been illegal. Maybe I read too much of r/legaladvice on Reddit, but if there is a doubt the first place to check is with a lawyer, not create a news story.

    18. DietCokeHead*

      Thank you for the update! I’m glad to hear that you fired employee has found a job and I want to wish you luck in finding a new job as well.

    19. Madame X*

      I’m so glad to hear that your coworker found a new position. I hope it is with a better company and overall better fit for her career wise. I thought Allison’s response covered everything you need to know in light of the information you gave her. As for the comments, I think that people were just so angry for your coworker that they wanted some type of satisfying closure in which the bad guys (a.k.a your company) were rightfully punished. However, as you said, none of that is relevant now.

    20. Delphine*

      People were outraged on the employee’s behalf and expressing that emotion. And reacting to the fact that it seemed like your company was more concerned with their inability to cover up the crime, rather than the crime itself.

  10. would you apply?*

    When job hunting say there is an advertisement for a position with a salary range of $50-60k. The position is in your field but in a niche you have no experience in. You have 15+ years experience; the advertisement wants a minimum of 3 years. You meet all other requirements except for some specific niche tasks that the company is willing to train you on. Your asking for a salary range of $60-$70k. You are willing to accept $60k, but that’s the absolute lowest you can go. This would be a great way to learn some new experiences (in a niche that is considered difficult to learn and extremely hard to break into) but it seems like there is very little wiggle room for negotiating salary wise. Would you apply?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You can apply. Unless you have something extraordinary to offer them (15+ years’ experience but not in the niche field they need isn’t going to cut it, if I’m understanding you correctly), they really have no incentive to A) hire you or B) put you at the top of their salary range.

      Most of the time—barring all candidates being horrible—hiring managers will just go with whomever they think is the best candidate. If you’re the best candidate, you can make demands. If you think you’ll be up against people who do have 3-5 years’ experience in this niche of your field, then you don’t really have a place to bargain. If you have a feeling you’ll be in the top of the candidate pool because the niche is so niche as to basically not exist, then maybe you can bargain it up.

      I would apply. $60K is in the range. They don’t have to hire you, and you don’t have to take the job.

    2. Ambpersand*

      If it was a niche that I wanted to break into and wouldn’t have many options otherwise, I definitely would. The lower salary would be a bummer, but as long as it covers your cost of living there is always room for growth with raises and bonuses as time goes on in the position.

    3. artgirl*

      I wouldn’t. The experience differential is huge, and what they would want out of an employee at the 3+ year level would probably be very different from I would want out of an employer at the 15+ year level.

    4. Janet*

      Sure — what’s the worst that can happen? You might waste some tie on an application/interview. Give it a try.

    5. MLB*

      You have nothing to lose in applying, but keep your expectations realistic especially since you require the high end of the salary range. Keep an open mind if it comes to the point of an offer and it’s lower than $60K, because there may be other perks that can compensate for the loss in salary.

    6. Natalie*

      I definitely wouldn’t apply unless you’re genuinely willing to accept $60K without asking for more. They’ve given you their range already.

      Also, consider whether getting into this specialized niche is a) something you want to do and b) worth sliding back down in position level quite a ways. The latter can be surprisingly grating, and it might be worth holding off until something a little more mid-career (5-10 years experience) comes along in this sub-specialty.

      1. Anony*

        I should also say that it depends on how prominent those niche tasks are to the job. If you will mostly be working on things that you have experience doing and the niche tasks will be 10% of the job, then go for it! If the niche tasks are 50% of the job it will be a stretch and you should only apply if you are willing to spend the time based on a slim chance they will meet your salary requirements.

    8. Thlayli*

      Apply. If you are the best candidate and the lowest you can go is 60, you will get 60. Ask for a little more than 60 I would suggest; that way you are more likely to get 60. But then you risk that they have another candidate who only ask for 60, but if you are strong they will probably cal you back and tell you it’s 60 or nothing.

    9. Falling Diphthong*

      I would apply, on the reasoning that you won’t know if you don’t ask.

      That advice would change if your entire job search were reach jobs below the salary you want, but as a one-off unexpected opportunity wandering by, no harm in offering it a cookie.

    10. AnotherJill*

      I think it really depends on how much you want to make the change, how desirable the new organization is, and whether or not you can feasibly take a lower salary. Sometimes the things other than salary are the most important, so it really depends on how important salary alone is for you. Personally, I moved from industry to academia with a 40% reduction in salary (which I could fortunately do as part of a two income empty-nester family) and never felt a twinge of regret.

    11. Bea*

      I would apply. This job market is slushy and they may give you a shot depending on the pool they’re drawing from.

  11. LO*

    Hey everybody!

    What questions did you ask in an interview to get a feel for the company environment and to avoid a bad environment/bad manager?

    1. Rob*

      I asked how long people had been here. Several people had been here ten plus years, with three being here 20 plus years and one co-worker who just had his 30th anniversary! This showed me, in my opinion of course, this was a pretty god place to work. I will be here in 9 years in June.

      1. Future Analyst*

        This can go both ways, though. When I hear people have been there for 7+ years, I want to know if they’re still in the same dept. and/or roles… sometimes, when people have been in a company for so long, it very much lends itself to “we’ve always done things x way,” and can be isolating for a newbie to walk into.

        1. Alternative Person*

          Yeah. I work for a company that has zero upward mobility for the semi-specialised role I’m in, none of the concurrent support/semi-supervisory roles and zero training expectations/best practice standards (this is part of the toxic mentality around my field+geographical area, not just my company). The two people who are my peers have been here since the office opened six-ish years ago and probably will be there long after I’ve gone (I’ve been there nearly two and am on track to be out by the three year mark). I don’t entirely fault them for this, one of the things the company did get (mostly) right was the pay/hours system, it’s better than pretty much everything else at this level.

          Unfortunately, the rot of minimal targets and minimal incentive to be better/move on has well and truly set in, not just with my full time peers but the part-timers too (even if its not reflected in their pay). One of the full timers stopped talking to me after two months, the other after about six and they have by some degrees set other staff against me (I haven’t been totally innocent in this) and it’s been pretty isolating. I asked for a transfer, even partial which looks like a semi-starter come the new financial year.

          I’ve been fortunate in that I have a manager who is supportive of me and my ways (thought he won’t let me train staff for fear of upsetting them), and an exit strategy . Whilst I can’t say I would have done much differently, this job allowed me to save up for the further training I’m doing faster than 99% of other same-level positions, I do wish that I hadn’t/don’t need to make the calculation of B.S vs. money vs. long term plans both when I took the job and when a co-worker says something ridiculous.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        That can be a good indicator. Sometimes it can be a bad one, though. I had one place brag to me about how many long-time employees were there. It wasn’t a horrible place to work, but the tiny bit of toxicity there was definitely due to the long-time employees. There were a handful of people who’d been there 10-20 years, and they were all in upper management and were never going to leave. Lots of bright new employees with fresh ideas would leave within 1-3 years, because they saw they’d never be decision-makers or have a chance to move up.

        2. zora*

          Yes, one place had too many people who had been there for too long, most of the senior staff had started at the bottom and worked their way up, which can be great. But most of them had literally never worked in another organization in their entire adult lives, so they had no perspective and it was really hard to suggest changes or even just to point out when something was outdated.

          This is still a good question, but it’s good to dig for a little more information about whether people get promoted, how good they are at leadership development, things like that.

        3. K.*

          Yep. There’s a woman where I used to work who has been there for literally decades and can’t keep a person under her for longer than a year. The average tenure is around six months. She does things objectively, quantifiably wrong, people come in and point this out, she rebuffs them, and they leave. She’s very senior and close to retirement, so I think they’re just waiting for her to retire.

      3. Anonomatic Yo Yo*

        Im in a place right now with what seems like a barbell shaped distribution – a ton of long-tenure (20+ yrs) senior management at the top, a ton of grads in the grad program at the bottom, and the people in the middle all seem to change over in 1-3 years. The graduate program is really strong and as such the grads are highly networked…. with each other. And since they can’t recruit enough people externally they build up the grads… by giving more experienced workers the shaft and giving their work to graduates to keep them engaged. Let me tell you, its bizarre, it sucks, and I am looking to get out of here ASAP.

        I would amend the question to ask about how long people tend to stay and move around – to indicate that it is possible to move/be promoted internally, a lot of people take them up on that, etc. Of course there will always be long term types who have a lot of the knowledge – the problem is when the balance is tilted too far that direction and poor work habits and thought are allowed to fester.

      4. Specialk9*

        I ask some really direct questions. I learned a lesson from a story about someone who was giving a security clearance background reference, and the investigators didn’t ask the right questions to get ‘he was a total unstable and vindictive loon who above all you shouldn’t give a clearance to’, so the guy got the clearance. So now I try to guess what question would get me to give a hint about an office full of bees, if I were the one doing the interview. (Because many of us have been miserable and looking, but don’t have a job yet to jump to, and don’t want to make waves.)

        I’ve had suprising luck with “Would you recommend this job to your favorite person, if they were qualified for it?”

    2. ANon*

      -How would you describe the culture here? Do you have any examples?
      -What’s your favorite/least favorite part of working here?
      -Would you say the department is more proactive or reactive? (YMMV for this one – it was pretty telling for me in HR)

      1. Linzava*

        This, I always ask about the company culture now. A lot of red flags can pop up during this question.

        I also ask what their management style is.

      2. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Oh the proactive vs reactive is the most critical question for me. I’m not in HR, but it’s huge for me. I worked in a 100% reactive department once and it was my personal hell.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      No question is foolproof, because some people are just smooth talkers and really good at making things up. That said, asking how a person finds the balance between not knowing what’s going on and being a micromanager can give you good insight into the culture of the place. Even asking what they like best about the company right now and what they would like to see changed in the future can give you a sense of what their priorities and concerns are.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      And, of course, just be in the lookout for red flags like “We’re a family” or “We like to work hard / play hard.”

      1. Leela*

        Oh man. “We like to work hard/play hard” = We do not respect your personal life or time at all but hey! We have a Foosball table and sometimes drink on the job. Isn’t that fun?

        1. Bostonian*

          I see that criticism a lot, but I work at a place with a “work hard/play hard” motto. If I had seen that as a red flag, I would have missed out on a job that’s a great fit, offers WFH, 4 weeks of vacation (that I take guilt-free every year), great pay, bonuses, stock awards, commuter reimbursement, supportive boss and coworkers… I could keep going, here.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            “A red flag” doesn’t mean “Under no circumstances should you ever work here.” It just means you should be wary about taking that job. I mean, I could walk up to you and say “I hate you,” and then not rob you or do anything mean to you and, in fact, be a nice person. That doesn’t mean “I hate you” is not an indicator that you should be on guard with that person. Same deal with “work hard/play hard.” It’s often an indicator that there’s no respect for work/life balance (all work, no life). You managed to find an exception. There will always be exceptions.

    5. Mbarr*

      “If you could change one thing about the company, what would it be?” This was a great question that got me some interesting responses from my interviewers.

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      When I’m talking to the hiring manager I always ask what kind of work style do you work well with? What work style would struggle? How do your direct reports know when they’re performing well? How do they know when/what they need to improve? Do you have regularly scheduled one on ones with your direct reports? What would your current employees say is your management style? What type of person will mesh well with your existing team? What kind of person will struggle?

      This will hopefully tell you about both the manager’s management philosophy and the team’s dynamics, and it may shed some light on larger culture too.

    7. Science!*

      Twice I got red flags from what I thought were innocuous questions during the interview:
      1. the first was for a post-doc position in a university. I asked about work-life balance and got a long story about how the PI and his wife got divorced because he wanted her to go back to work after the birth of their children before she was ready to. But the other post-docs assured me that he was better now. But it was a red flag on top of other uncertainty.

      2. The second was for a post-doc in a government lab. My speciality was a bit different from the specialities of the other people in the lab (which is why I thought I was being interviewed) and I asked how the PI could see my skills fitting in with the current projects or if I would be starting a new project from scratch. He hemmed and hawed and admitted that he had really thought how I would fit in at all. That was a red flag that combined with his behavior when he called to make the offer made me say no (I already had another offer to consider so I was not very worried).

      1. So Very Anonymous*

        Ohhh I am glad you posted #2 because it is fantastic wording for a question I’ve been trying to figure out how to ask. Many thanks!

      2. Anonomatic Yo Yo*

        This is amazing phrasing – will absolutely use this one next time because I have been caught more than once in a “well we had to fill the seat or use it and kinda get busy for 5 weeks out of the year so…” situations.

    8. Uncertain*

      I try to get a sense of how a company deals with a situation where everything is going wrong: how do they resolve these kinds of situations, who takes charge, how do they manage a crisis “in progress”, what do they do once the situation has been resolved.

      They’ll probably lie, but the way in which they lie can be quite revealing.

    9. Irene Adler*

      Ask the person to whom you would report: How do you support your reports? A good answer includes things like making sure directions are understood, tools and what not are always made available or procured as needed, time is made for 1:1 interaction betw. you and boss, feedback is given, etc. A bad answer: “No one but I can yell at you. Just kidding!”

      Ask how folks spend their lunch time. If they spend it at their desks- problem. IF folks know about the local eateries, or they tell you about the lunch spaces they provide, that’s a good sign.

      Ask what topics the upper management talks about to the employees. Request a story to illustrate how they interact with the employees.

      1. zora*

        Oh yeah, I think that’s how I worded it, too! ( I wrote something similar below)

        “How do you support your reports?” is really good, because I am looking for a manager who sees it as a two way street, and have had trouble with managers in the past. I think the way they answer this can give you a lot of info.

      2. Displaced Midwesterner*

        I love all of these. I never would have thought to ask about lunch before my current job, but people’s lunch habits can be such a huge part of an organization’s culture. We don’t have a lunchroom at my job, and most of my colleagues are really interested in food/the local dining scene, so lots of people go out for lunch or order takeout every day. I couldn’t sustain it financially, so I started bowing out more often and either eating in my office/going for a walk during that time, and I feel like my relationships with my coworkers have suffered a bit for it.

    10. Koko*

      I ask anyone who interviews me when their last long vacation was and where they went. I try to ask it during the small talk part of the interview if there is one, so it seems casual, but my ulterior motive is determining whether employees are actually permitted to use their PTO easily or if there’s de facto no PTO because you’re not allowed or it’s culturally unacceptable to use it.

      I also work for nonprofits so I ask a few questions in the Q&A portion to suss out how involved the BOD is. I’ve worked for places with both a negligent board and a board who was way too involved in day-to-day operations so I try to steer clear of both.

    11. zora*

      “Why is the position open?” Or some other question to find out what happened to the last person in the job. This can reveal a red flag. Once I asked this and the two interviewers (Hiring Manager and Grand-Manager) exchanged a look and said really weird vague things about “It’s our policy not to talk about former employees.” Yup, red flag!! Didn’t take that job! And in another job, this might have helped me stay out of the bad situation, because it turned out they hadn’t told the person I was replacing that she was fired yet! That was a clusterfork to walk into.

      “How long do people usually stay here?”

      “What are the procedures for dealing with difficult volunteers?” or whatever you deal with in your job, clients, customers, vendors, etc. This can give you some indication of whether management will have your back in difficult situations.

      “What does a typical day look like?/What hours does this position typically work?” That helped me find out that a very low-paying job had insane hours expectations.

      “How do you handle communicating mistakes as a manager?” I can’t remember exactly how I phrased this, but when interviewing as an assistant to my current boss, this led to a really good conversation about handling mistakes and errors.

    12. MMM*

      I ask about how feedback from managers is handled, both on a formal/informal basis. Ideally I’d like to hear that while they have some sort of formal review process (annually, semi-annual etc), there is also open communication and ongoing feedback, so that nothing is a surprise at review time.

      This stems from my last job, where my boss would blindside me at my performance review with things I had been apparently been doing wrong for months, but he didn’t mention until reviews (I’m talking small, fixable things that I would have changed immediately if he had pointed them out)

    13. NutmeG*

      1. What are the best things about working here?
      (A nice opener to “Have you any questions for me?” )

      2. What are the worst things about working here?
      (Obvious 2nd half)

      Then follow up with the manager by asking:
      **3. And what are you doing about them?**

      It gives you an idea of not only what the role is like now, but the direction it is headed. It also tells you if your manager is willing and able to make a difference to his reports’ daily experience, or a conduit telling you this is how things are and don’t expect change.

    14. Elizabeth West*

      At my interview on Tuesday, with a company I had serious misgivings about, the HR person said the manager of the position’s department was a really good manager. I asked what made him a good manager. She said he was very laid back, very much helpful to his employees, and really knew his stuff. That left me with a much more positive impression.

      I have some questions for him, if I get a second interview.

    15. David*

      When I was interviewing for my current job, I asked how they handle it when an employee chooses to leave the company. I wanted to get an answer showing that they have a procedure for transitioning people out that isn’t unreasonably hard on the employee leaving.

      Any time I sign up for something, I always think about how easy (or not) it’s going to be to get out of it if I decide I don’t like it. I came up with this rule for things like email accounts, but it seems to makes sense for jobs too.

  12. Kathleen*

    Would you advise someone against wearing makeup to a job interview if that someone was a man?

    It’s nothing outlandish, just basic foundation / eyeliner / lip gloss type stuff – the kind that, had it being on a woman, most people wouldn’t even notice.

    He’s never had issues with it before, but now he’s moving from what would be considered a very liberal industry into a more conservative one (say, theatre to insurance).

    It’s not a question of gender identity or sexuality (he very much identifies as cis and heterosexual), so I don’t think it’d be a ‘protected’ class. His reasoning is that well, if it was the sort of office that wouldn’t accept this then he wouldn’t want to work there anyway.

    That sounds reasonable enough but if you were the interviewer would you consider it something too ‘out of the norm’ for interviews that you’d question his judgement? (E.g. some offices have very casual dress codes but candidates are still expected to be in suits etc.)

    1. Just Peachy*

      In a conservative workplace, I would say in may be considered “out of the norm”, even though you say it’s not (rightly or wrongly).

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      If he wants to wear it every day and it’s important to him, then he has to wear it to the interview. He’s right – if I doesn’t want to work in a place that won’t accept that he wears makeup he won’t feel comfortable working there. When I worked retail I had several male colleagues who wore makeup and I have a few male friends that do. No men that I have taught with wore makeup to school but did on their private time.

      On reflection, I know a lot of men that wear makeup. Good for your friend for doing what feels best for himself.

    3. Future Analyst*

      I think it depends on how selective he can be right now. If he’s okay effectively screening out places that would hold that against him, he should wear it to the interview. If he’s desperate to get a new job, he shouldn’t wear it for the interview, and try to assess if they would hold it against him if he showed with makeup on on the first day.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would be concerned that interviewers would be so taken aback, they’d have trouble remembering him for anything else. I don’t condone that, and I don’t think it’s right, but I can see it happening. For that reason I’d be cautious; maybe tone things down, leave out the lip gloss. Especially at a conservative company and especially in the first interview. I would be less surprised at a woman without makeup than a man wearing foundation, you know? It’s one of those situations where I wouldn’t want that surprise to cloud everything else.

      (This reminds me of that scene in Rock Star. “Is that… eyeliner?” “Um, I’m in a BAND?” “Oh, ok.”)

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Ideally, the foundation shouldn’t even be noticeable other than “wow, what a good complexion.” If you’d take that much notice, then it’s less about the makeup per se than it is about the bad hand with it.

    5. Eye of Sauron*

      Clarification question… does he normally wear makeup or is this a test to gauge reaction?

      I guess if he normally wears makeup and it’s a deal breaker, he might as well go ahead and wear it for the interview knowing that it may disqualify him. But if he doesn’t normally wear it every day then he should attempt to gauge the culture differently during the interview process.

    6. AnotherAlison*

      I’m in a conservative “manly” type industry, and I don’t think that would fly here. We had a skinny pants/bowtie guy here for a while, and people commented on his clothes a lot. Also just interviewed a guy with shoulder length hair who sparked some post-interview comments from my co-interviewers. Most of the colleagues I deal with are at client facing at least some of the time, and I think that would be the problem. Even if he would take it off for client meetings, I can imagine people saying, “Is he going to wear makeup to the site?”

      1. Curious Cat*

        It never fails to baffle me how if a woman decided not to wear makeup, often people would have that opposite reaction. “What do you mean she isn’t going to wear makeup to meet with clients?” I understand the culture we live in, but I am shaking my head at the world.

        1. DDJ*

          I was actually thinking about this exact topic this morning. I may have to start job hunting soon, and I don’t wear makeup at work. Ever. It’s not my thing. I wear it a handful of times a year for special occasions (weddings, anniversary dinners, fancy parties).

          But if I’m going to interviews, I’m wondering if I’m going to come off looking unprofessional if I don’t wear makeup. But I also want to work at a place that doesn’t expect me to wear it every day!

          So I’d say he should wear it if it’s something he does all the time to make sure the workplace is a good fit for him, if he has the option of being choosy.

          1. TheCupcakeCounter*

            My friend is anti-makeup and also works in finance (at a somewhat high level). She wears mascara and a lightly tinted gloss to interviews – she is comfortable with it and just gives her a slightly more polished look for the interview. Plus no one really notices a significant difference when she goes back to her normal.

    7. Ambpersand*

      This reminds me of something I came across several years ago while working at a community college (in the bible belt, no less)… We were hiring for a full time Philosophy professor, and this guy came in for an interview that had long, thick black hair, tied back into a pony tail, full kohl black eyeliner, and a white linen suit and pale pink shirt. Think Khal Drogo meets Miami Vice. He was charismatic and actually overqualified, but immediately after his interview we had a serious discussion about how he would be perceived in our admittedly conservative culture. It was a real fear that by hiring him, he wouldn’t be accepted (or worse, could be mocked). We personally didn’t mind the makeup or the “look,” but we couldn’t speak for the rest of the employees or students. We all kind of held our breath during the first few weeks after he was hired. He ended up getting hired and became one of the most beloved professors we had, but his look was a real factor that almost cost him the position.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        OMG. Your description of “Khal Drogo meets Miami Vice” is painting quite a vivid picture in my head. LOL!!

          1. Ambpersand*

            I’m not going to lie- he was AMAZING. And I’m not lying about the Khal Drogo meets Miami Vice vibe… He had a really eclectic selection of suits. Some three piece and pin striped, some wool. It was insane. His love for GOT went so far that he named his daughter Khaleesi. He was really intelligent though and managed to engage even the most uninterested students. His exams were structured as open discussions, and he’d often order pizza for the class and take his lectures outside. Although he was only with us for a few years, his classes were always the first to max out on enrollment. He was definitely one of those professors that changed some students lives. It was incredible to watch, eyeliner and all.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I had a professor who didn’t dress quite as extremely but he was a dead ringer for Col. Sanders (the KFC mascot), outfit and all. He was a senior prof by then and one of my favorites. Glad it worked out for your guy too.

      5. Anion*

        It’s awesome that people were cooler and more easy-going than you guys gave them credit for. What a great thing to find out! He sounds like a fantastic teacher & person.

    8. selina kyle*

      Depends where you are/what you’re doing (sadly enough – I wish it didn’t matter! It shouldn’t matter!) but I do also think that if it’s not super noticeable go ahead? Maybe skip eyeliner but keep the rest if it makes him more comfortable.

    9. C.*

      I think there are arguments for an against, but for some reason the lip gloss stood out to me, if only because I probably wouldn’t wear it to an interview as a woman. I think because it was such a hallmark of my middle school years that it strikes me as a little immature, or as going-out wear. I think a nude lip or a your-lips-but-better color would be the way to go if he chooses to wear makeup to the interview.

    10. Bagpuss*

      I think that it depends a lot on how important it is to him to get the job, and how important it is to be able to wear makeup regularly if/when he gets it.
      Does he have any friends or acquaintances in the company he is applying to, who he could ask?
      I personally wouldn’t care (and I work in a fairly conservative office) but I can think of colleagues who would notice and would be less likely to proceed to an offer.

      1. Bagpuss*

        Also – it depends a lot how obvious it is. Eyeliner is hard to miss but I am not sure how noticeable foundation and lip gloss are if you aren’t expecting them – maybe he can focus on using neutral colours so it’s a very natural look?

        1. Thlayli*

          When I hear “lip gloss” I assume OP is talking about actual gloss – ie his lips look shiny and glistening. That’s pretty out there for an interview, even for a woman! I wouldn’t wear lip gloss to an interview.

          Some light foundation that’s done well so it just looks like he has really good skin wouldn’t even be noticeable, but lip gloss is kind of “making a statement” type makeup. Which of nothing else will distract from what he is actually saying with his shiny glistening lips!

          1. Makeup Addict*

            Wow, this is so weird to me. Lip gloss is so everyday and normal, I’d be surprised if anyone noticed that someone was wearing it at all. It’s not like all lip gloss is bright pink and vinyl gloss effect, most are quite subtle and just add a subtle shine. Lip gloss is the furthest thing from statement makeup to me!

            1. Thlayli*

              It sounds like we mean different things when we are talking about lip gloss. What I call lip gloss would definitely be noticeable.

              OP if by “lip gloss” you mean something that someone wouldn’t even notice he was wearing, then I don’t see any harm in wearing it.

              1. Petals*

                Lip gloss comes in a lot of different formulations. If you are using that term to mean the 80s style vinyl lip look, that’s a very limited and out of date understanding of what it is. I wear gloss to work all the time, it’s entirely professional looking and no one would ever bat an eyelash at it.

          2. Anxa*

            I don’t know. I’m wearing glosses right now, but they don’t really look glossy at all. I can’t wear matte lipsticks, which seem to be dominating the market right now. I have a bit of dry mouth and my lips are always a little dry, even in summer. When I drink red wine I get that dark line in the middle of my lip (horizontally).

            A “nude” lip is much more intense and obvious on me.

    11. LKW*

      If he wants to wear makeup every day then yes, he should wear makeup to the interview. But he should understand that if he’s in a client facing position, insurance is very conservative, and he will likely have difficulty finding a position. There are companies that require women to dress in skirts. Companies that expect suits every day or have strict policies on visible tattoos. What may be acceptable in one department (IT – jeans and polos), would NEVER fly in another (Litigation – suits and ties). So it’s really how much he wants to push on this.

      I would say that if his makeup is very elaborate – it will likely be very confusing to the hiring team. If he can go for a “natural” look – he might have some success – but yeah, he’s going to have some challenges.

      1. Anony*

        I agree. If being able to wear noticeable makeup is a dealbreaker for him, it is better to find out now rather than later if that is going to be ok.

    12. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Personally, if I noticed, I’d consider it a plus for him, but I’m also staunchly progressive and queer as heck, so take my opinion as you will.

      It sounds to me like you’re looking for ammunition to dissuade him from doing this, and to be honest, I don’t think you should. He’s already told you that he’s using it as a filtering device. That’s his call to make.

    13. Mari*

      There is actually some advice that men should wear subtle makeup to look younger, more awake, fresher, etc…from reputable sources. Is his foundation/eyeliner/lip gloss actually that noticeable (no-makeup makeup look)? If so, I wouldn’t worry about it at all. And, if it is and it’s something he wears regularly, I would ABSOLUTELY wear it for an interview to self-select out the people who would have a problem with it.

    14. Snow Day Lady*

      I see no problem with some foundation and mascara to bring out his natural features. It’s less likely that this sort of thing will barely be noticed. I’d lay off the eyeliner and lip gloss unless both are used sparingly, but I would advise women of this too. For the most part, eyeliner and lip gloss are best saved for the club.

      1. Samata*

        Honestly, my makeup advice for a man would be the same as for a woman.

        Very natural, if applied correctly shouldn’t be noticed anyways. Maybe some blush and nude or toned down lip (as someone else stated) but not glossy, light mascara & possible eyeliner but not heavy. Maybe some concealer or brightening serum around the eyes. Anything to enhance, but not distract, from the interview itself.

        1. Snow Day Lady*

          Yes, exactly! There was a typo in my comment, what I meant to say was “it’s less likely that this sort of thing will be noticed”. I completely agree with you. Keep it natural and light so that the interviewer thinks “wow he has nice skin” or “he looks like he is glowing”. It would be exactly the same for a woman.

        2. Betsy*

          But a man wearing make-up would be noticed. One of the main reasons we don’t notice make-up on women is that we’ve naturalised it so much that we even think they look wrong or ‘tired’ if they don’t. As one of the few women who doesn’t wear make-up, I get asked if I’m tired all the time, even when I’m really not.

          1. Lissa*

            trueeee. I’m also a woman who doesn’t wear makeup – it’s annoying how many guys will say things like “Oh I don’t like women who wear makeup”, because I’m well aware they sure do, they just consider those women “naturally attractive” and aren’t really thinking of it. A lot of guys think a woman is only wearing makeup if it’s like, ruby red lips and dark liner. But the number of women I know (most) who just can’t imagine the idea of going to work etc. without makeup, compared to how uncommon it is for guys to wear it ever, shows how much of a gendered issue this is. I hear women say things like “well, I personally *have* to wear makeup because of X feature” but like, if they were dudes they wouldn’t feel that they *have* to no matter what their features were. (99.9% of the time caveat for people who love exceptions!)

        3. SC Anonibrarian*

          I’m going to disagree strenuously here. Most men (correction, most herero cis men) will probably not realize if a man is wearing very high quality and well applied ‘natural’ makeup. On the other hand, most women, regardless of their own makeup preferences, will ABSOLUTELY know. A decent subset of gay men will ABSOLUTELY know. It’s not actually a subtle ‘invisible’ makeup effect, it’s just internalized in our culture to be not noticed on women’s faces. If he is otherwise masculine, especially if he has facial hair, it will be quite obvious that makeup is involved, especially if foundation or eyebrow color is involved. I dearly wish for more men to wear makeup, so I selfishly hope he does stick to it and weeds out the fusty old fashioned people. But I really disagree with the notion that people simply won’t notice. At best, if he’s very good at it, some men may not notice.

    15. NaoNao*

      What an interesting question! This is one I haven’t seen and it really made me think!
      I frequent Ulta and I confess I do a double take when I see a man in “the full beat” makeup look but I bet tons of men are wearing a dash of powder or a brush of concealer and I don’t even notice!

    16. Falling Diphthong*

      His reasoning is that well, if it was the sort of office that wouldn’t accept this then he wouldn’t want to work there anyway.

      Sounds like he is already aware of the norms of the two industries, and willing to actively narrow his search to the hipper corners of insurance.

      If he asked you, sure, be honest about your opinion. I could see someone naively thinking “splinter” when people in the industry would be “Nope, two-by-four.” But if you’re wondering if he just hasn’t noticed that men don’t tend to wear lip gloss in most industries, that’s probably not a problem.

    17. Jules the Third*

      My guess is that in a conservative field, 90% of interviewers for customer facing jobs would find this ‘too out of the norm’. For internal jobs, maybe 50%. The remaining 10% would be people in large liberal urban centers (NYC, SF, London).

      A lot boils down to how much does your friend want a job in a conservative industry? How much is he willing to compromise for it? Would he be ok with just foundation and subtle eye-liner? I find lip gloss to be most noticeable; an interviewer might not notice natural foundation or subtle eyeliner, especially if there’s glasses involved.

      But yeah, if makeup is a deal breaker for him, then he may want to find similar job roles in less conservative industries.

    18. NacSacJack*

      This is very thought provoking. I’m very curious to see what cis gender men look like with make-up. I have one acquaintance who wears make-up when he’s out and about and it is noticable. (PS I’m not talking men in drag or theatre)

      1. SC Anonibrarian*

        It’s a startling thing because it is just as ‘natural’ as the ‘natural face’ makeup styles women often wear, but because we’re culturally accustomed to seeing women walking around looking airbrushed and ‘polished’ but very rarely to see men looking that way, it comes as a shock. When you get used to it, it looks perfectly reasonable, but there’s still an underlying ‘ooooh that’s a taboo!’ feeling when you see ‘normal’ men looking facially polished and finished like that. It makes most people think that it’s overdone or fake or trying too hard in a way that is rarely attached to women’s equivalent makeup looks, and it’s entirely because makeup is currently coded as a female-specific (with minor exceptions) type of visual improvement. Culture is so weird.

    19. Emilitron*

      It’s hard to answer, because different interviewers might respond differently. While I can respect his reasoning of “if it was the sort of office that wouldn’t accept this then he wouldn’t want to work there anyway”, there could also be concern from the interviewer that this is the tip of the iceberg – if he’d show up to an interview in eyeliner and lip gloss, he must be testing the waters for coming to work daily with glitter eyeshadow. I think that’s the line of reasoning for “we wear jeans to work but expect better at an interview”.
      To continue that analogy though, dress code often is meeting halfway: normal is jeans, conservative-interview is a suit, compromise interview is a sport coat. So he would reject anyplace that would reject him for not wearing a suit, but he might compromise for the interview by wearing a sport coat even if he wouldn’t do that every day. Or to put it on-topic: eyeliner OR lip gloss, not both.

    20. LilySparrow*

      If he wants to self-select out of companies that wouldn’t accept him in makeup, this is a great way to do it.
      The impact on his opportunities is going to really depend on where he’s located.
      I’m in a very conservative part of the US, and I can’t think of any public-facing professional job where this would be accepted.
      And in environments where a lot of women don’t wear makeup all the time, it’s really noticeable. Even “natural, neutral” makeup sticks out a mile.

  13. I need a new job*

    I applied to a job last December without a cover letter (still learning) and the job is still posted, can I reapply with a cover letter. My skill set doesn’t necessarily show itself from my resume but I can make a strong case in my cover letter. Is it worth the risk? I’m really interested in the job but I don’t want to be “that guy”.

    1. Future Analyst*

      Eh, I wouldn’t. It’s too recent, and unless your cover letter really, truly would make you a more viable candidate, it’s not worth it.

    3. SubwayFan*

      Is it possible for you to add a post-script that says something like “I realized that I accidentally left out my cover letter when I applied for this post in December–apologies for the double application”? I’m thinking of that time I applied for a municipal job and had assumed I’d be uploading my cover letter and resume into the system as two separate files, but there was no place at any point to upload the separate cover letter. When I realized my application got submitted without a cover letter, I created a new file with resume and cover letter together and reapplied with a note like that.

      Note: I didn’t even get a phone screen for this job, but it was also a stretch job for me and ended up going to someone very politically connected, so I don’t think it was my double application that hurt me there.

      2. Fabulous*

        I would probably try something like this, but only if your application was submitted via email. Reply to the email with “I just realized that I left my cover letter off my initial application in December. Hopefully it’s not too late to add it! Please see attached for my cover letter (and resume again) to apply for this position.”

    4. PieInTheBlueSky*

      The ATS that we use at my workplace allows a candidate to go back and update an existing application. You could see if it’s possible to add in your cover letter to your existing application. There’s no guarantee that they’ll look at it, of course.

      At my job (higher education), we have hiring committees that decide on the candidates. If the committee hasn’t met yet to select the finalists, then at my workplace you would still be considered even if you added your cover letter at this time.

    5. T3k*

      I probably got one of those “an exception, not the rule” scenarios, but I did exactly this and ended up landing a job within my dream industry. The kicker was 1) the site had no way to upload a cover letter (it was literally as simple as “click to apply”, upload resume, and that was it) 2) it was an entry level position and 3) it wasn’t simply a re-posting but a new position (basically they’d hired someone from the last posting, took down posting, then a few months later posted the job up again for another position of the same name). So my advice is, unless you know it’s actually for another position and not simply the same one you applied for, I wouldn’t do it.

  14. hermit crab*

    Continuing my “help me figure out what to do next” question from a couple of weeks ago… :)

    Another thing I’m considering is taking a year to do an AmeriCorps program. Can anyone share their experiences doing something like this, particularly if you did it at a more “mid-career” age rather than in your early 20s?

    I’m lucky to be in a financial place where I could swing this. I have some skills that could be useful to contribute and there are placements in the city where I live. I know many AmeriCorps programs have no upper age limit, but is this a thing people actually do when they are in their 30s? Will it look strange to future employers?

    1. Action Heroine*

      I can’t say whether or not it will look strange to future employers, but I am a 30-something woman who just completed an AmeriCorps position. I decided to do it as a part-time job while in grad school full time (that being said, jury is also still out on how future employers will look at a 30-something deciding to take a break from a full-time career to go back to school, but I really hated what I was doing immediately prior and had to get out of there). In my case, doing it as an add-on to grad school will probably help frame it as part of my larger goal of redirecting my career path toward something more public-service oriented.

      My placement was at a food bank and I was tasked with delivering a program that brought fresh produce to underserved populations. I very much enjoyed what I did. Importantly (as related to clarifying career goals), I found that it wasn’t talking to people I didn’t like, it was talking to high-maintenance super wealthy people who expected to be catered to and with whom it was impossible to set limits without jeopardizing my job that I didn’t like. Beyond that, I found it really rewarding to be doing something that helped my community. Getting out from behind a desk for the first time in my professional life was also a nice change. While most of my AmeriCorps colleagues were recent college graduates (and one senior in college), there was another woman there of nontraditional age (50s); she had just left her job as an executive director of a social services nonprofit and wanted to do something a little more low pressure. This may have been more a function of having an extremely young, inexperienced program director, but my major frustration was the lack of management — we were kind of just left to our own devices.

      Hope that’s at least a somewhat helpful perspective.

      1. Jules the Third*

        Employers are totally ok with 30-somethings going back to school for advanced degrees. As a matter of fact, advanced degrees are one of the top recommendations for people who want to switch industries, as a way to get the equivalent of experience quickly.
        – MBA at 32, switching from IT to Supply Chain.

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      As someone who did an Americorps-type position at an older age than the rest of the cohort (but still relatively early in my career), it worked out really well for me, in that I got a full-time job out of it, got some useful training (some non-useful training), and a strong network. However, this was at peak Great Recession and basically became a way to jump start my career in a way that wouldn’t have been possible without basically volunteering for a year.

      I’m not clear whether you’re doing this as a career change or a gap year. If it’s the former, I don’t think employers will look at it strangely. I’d focus on what your day-to-day work will be (do they have a clear idea for what you’re doing and is it meaningful, or will you just be picking up loose ends or filling in on projects as needed), your supervision/support, and what paths there are to full-time jobs in that company. If it’s the latter, I’m not sure how future employers would look at it.

      1. hermit crab*

        Thank you (and Action Heroine) – your perspectives are both really helpful!

        Re: your second paragraph, I’m not entirely sure yet either. “Redirecting my career path toward something more public-service oriented” (as Action Heroine puts it above) is definitely part of my motivation, I’m just not sure yet what form I want that to take.

    3. August*

      Hi! I’m a recent grad who immediately transitioned into an AmeriCorps VISTA position, but I know a bunch of VISTAs ranging in age from 27 to 70, so, no, it’s not odd at all to become a VISTA when you’re a bit older! The VISTAs I’ve spoken to who have done VISTA mid-career and then went on to other full-time jobs got generally good reception from employers. The key seems to be 1) explaining what VISTA is (i.e. that it’s a one-year gig, that it’s national service, etc.) and 2) explaining why you went for VISTA (i.e. love of service, gaining important career skills, etc.). So, when you’re applying for VISTA positions, consider how what you’d learn in that position would be relevant to jobs you’d apply to in the future.

      Also (and feel free to take this with a grain of salt, since I’m new to working full-time and experiences tend to differ) I’d advise being reeeaaally thorough in vetting supervisors/organizations during the interview process. In my region, there are several organizations that are well-known for getting a ton of VISTAs (meaning they’re masters at reworking their applications so they can get new rounds of VISTAs past the three-year terms) and for exploiting their VISTAs. Some organizations can draw up very pretty job descriptions, but, in actually, they’re having you do secretarial work, or they end up keeping you for constant 15-hour days to help with events that aren’t within your VAD.

      Didn’t mean to have such an ominous last paragraph, but, so long as you find a position that works for you, VISTA is an amazing, challenging experience!

      1. Spcepickle*

        I was a peace corps volunteer, and they jump all over mid career people. Turns out fresh college breeds don’t know nearly as much as they think. I say go for it!

    4. Joanne*

      This isn’t my experience but a friend of a friend I knew in high school so take it with a grain of salt. The AmeriCorps program she was in paid very little, and was very much a “work hard, little pay” environment since it was focusing on the skills being brought in, and I believe you don’t get to choose the area where you want to go.
      You may want to look into the Peace Corps instead – they’ll let you choose up to three places where you want to go and they’re always looking. You do need to go through several rounds of interviews (as I recall, you need to go through a phone interview and then possibly an in-person one) but they’ll take anyone up to age 60 (unless the country has a requirement – no one over the age of 50 can apply due to these restrictions) which will be made available on their website.
      I don’t think doing AmeriCorps will look strange to future employers, but a lot of the people in the AmeriCorps/Peace Corps programs tend to be younger and recent college grads.

      1. Natalie*

        You definitely get to chose where you are for Americorps! Americorps positions are essentially just jobs at various non-profits, but they are paid through an Americorps stipend. You apply and interview for them same as any other job.

        (They are all poorly paid as far as I recall, since they are full time jobs but the stipend is low. I don’t know if the organizations are allowed to pay you more than the stipend but I doubt many (any) or them do since they’re generally non profits without extra funding.)

        2. Grits McGee*

          The VISTA program in particular is designed to be poorly paid and is tied to poverty levels in the area the position is located in. (Even to the point that you weren’t allowed to do any other paying work.) When I was a VISTA we were told it was so that we could understand the challenges facing members of the community.

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        A couple of corrections:

        AmeriCorps is an umbrella program that oversees placements at thousands of organizations. The work and culture will depend on the organization with each volunteer works.

        You definitely do get to choose where you are placed. You apply directly to the placements you are interested in (or, sometimes, through an intermediary organization). It’s not like Teach for America, for example, where you apply to the program itself and wait to find out to what region you’ve been assigned.

    5. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      What is your goal in doing AmeriCorps? Is it primarily to be of service, or to get experience in a field or role that’s new to you, or to make a change in your career?

      In my experience as a manager of VISTAs, the experience can be really effective in making inroads into the nonprofit sector in your region. Excellent VISTAs’ reputations go beyond their organizations — good managers definitely brag about their VISTAs and will work to help them find a permanent role elsewhere if their organization can’t hire them at the end of their service. The program helps you develop a powerful network (especially if your VISTA position is through an intermediary organization like the New Sector Alliance or Promise Fellows).

      1. hermit crab*

        All of the above, I think? I’m currently in consulting and would definitely like to transition into non-profits or government, but maybe not in the exact area where I’d want to spend a year volunteering. So what you say about network-building sounds awesome.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          VISTA managers will be thrilled to have someone with some professional experience — and they will be concerned that you may not stay the whole year.

          VISTAs leaving before their term of service is up is a big problem; it’s very difficult to replace a VISTA member mid-year, because of the required training that happens at the beginning of the year, which means that if a VISTA leaves mid-year the organization is often stuck without anyone in that role.

          That can happen with anyone, of course, but as a manager I’d be more worried about it with a mid-career participant who is more likely to have other options. So I’d encourage you to be prepared to talk about that directly (your commitment, what you’re hoping to get out of the experience, your understanding of how difficult it is when someone leaves before their term is up, etc.).

          I’d also encourage you to really investigate whether you can make it work financially. The pay is super, super low — below minimum wage, in some cases. That’s the main reason that folks leave before their term is up — they weren’t able to survive on the AmeriCorps stipend.

          1. hermit crab*

            Oh, that’s interesting – thanks. I’m pretty well-placed to do this financially (supportive spouse with a well-paid & secure job) but the “more experience” = “more options” thing wouldn’t have occurred to me. I really appreciate your input!

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      Former Peace Corps volunteer, and I think it’s a great idea. It’s likely to give you something new and out of your comfort zone, which is a great way to figure out where you want to go. And as spcepickle says, people who already have work experience are gold–they just tend to have children and mortgages and not be at a point in their lives where dropping it all to do something else for two years at low wages and high disruption makes sense. But if you don’t have dependents to consider, two years of this can be great.

    7. Displaced Midwesterner*

      My husband completed a year in the VISTA program. He had a title (“Llama Specialist”) within the organization where he was employed, so on his resume, that time appears as a “Community Llama Services: Llama Specialist, 20XX – 20XX.” Sometimes he specifies that it was a VISTA-funded position; sometimes not (going with more general language about it being a contract/grant-funded position). If applications ask for a reason for leaving, sometimes he explains it there. So, if you’re worried about it looking strange down the road, there are ways to describe that employment experience without centering the fact that it was an AmeriCorps position.

      I know that he has used his coworkers there as references; they managed to keep him on a second year with funding from another source, so that was also pretty great. He was a little older than the rest of his VISTA cohort (just out of law school as opposed to just out of undergrad), but he wasn’t working directly with most of them, so it didn’t really make a difference. He currently works for the government in a department that is directly related to the issues that the organization he worked with for VISTA addressed. He’s sitting next to me as I type and says that it was really helpful for him as a way to “kick-start” his resume and make connections. So, if you can swing it, it could be a really useful way to start down a different career path.

    8. valc2323*

      I think I saw at least two people above who said this already, but echoing — I can’t speak to the AmeriCorps angle, but as a Peace Corps volunteer leader (in my mid-twenties) I looooved my older volunteers. They had a ton of relevant experience, they were more open to new things, and they integrated into their communities so much better than a lot of my fresh-out-of-college volunteers. You said you were in a financial place where you could swing an AmeriCorps assignment, especially if there are some in your city, and Peace Corps is a whole ‘nother level of complicated if you have mortgage, car, etc, but think about it.

      Peace Corps volunteers tend to be early twenties or mid-fifties and later because of the requirement that you not have a custodial arrangement with dependent children, so my older volunteers were mostly retirees and not looking to get back into the workforce afterwards. For the younger group, Peace Corps opened a lot of doors. Some people did it because they wanted careers in humanitarian or nonprofit organizations; some people did it for the adventure; some people did it to add some spark to a lackluster college transcript when applying for graduate or professional school. I did it for the language training – which is definitely a skill that has led to a lot of professional opportunities or me.

      As a hiring manager I wouldn’t think “you’re weird for doing a year of service in your 30s”. Instead I’d be thinking “how awesome that you did a year of service. Tell me about the skills you applied to that job (or learned from it) that will transfer to this one.”

  15. Just Peachy*

    This sounds awful, but my supervisor has the WORST sense of style I’ve ever seen (not to mention, it’s just not appropriate for a business casual workplace.)

    Today she is sporting a striped sweatshirt with a GIANT Mickey Mouse head decal on it. She also has a sweater with rainbow watches on it that she sports frequently, and another with snowmen and presents on it that looks like something you’d wear to an ugly Christmas sweater party (she sports it from about October-March). She also wears shirts with random logos of other companies on them. It’s honestly embarrassing when customers come in to meet with her. We don’t get a ton of customers in-office, but I can’t help but think of what they’re thinking of her when they do come in.

    1. Porgy*

      Yeah, if you’re meeting with customers or clients, you probably shouldn’t wear the Mickey Mouse sweatshirt. But if there are no clients and no one cares? I wouldn’t be bothered by it. I have no meetings today and am not coming in contact with any clients and I’m wearing a Star Wars t-shirt so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      1. Just Peachy*

        Unfortunately, we work in the kind of office setting that customers just walk-in to inquire about different things (so, it’s not normally a planned meeting where she knows ahead of time to dress appropriately!)

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Hmm. I don’t see anything wrong with the Mickey sweatshirt, to be honest. It’s a bit quirky, maybe, but not terrible, especially if you have a relatively casual Friday culture. I do have an issue with people wearing other company’s logos when they’re client-facing, because I think that’s a professional no-no, not a style problem. The sweater with rainbow watches? I’m having a hard time picturing it. But then, I have a cardigan with little hot-air balloons and another covered in elephants and I love them, and I’m also known to wear rather unusual socks. And I know I look appropriate for my office and my past offices.

      Remember, style is in the eye of the beholder. If her clothes are neat and clean and she doesn’t look unkempt, then let it lie. I doubt the customers are thinking anything much of her at all beyond getting their needs met. Unless you work in a modeling agency or a high-end dress salon or a hedge fund.

      1. Just Peachy*

        It’s more acceptable on Fridays than other days, but she wears it frequently on other days of the week. I think it’s more that the Mickey Mouse is like, a separate piece from the sweater, sewn onto the front. It’s like a 3D head popping off the rest of the sweater.

        I do agree though that the logo-clad clothes are worse. For instance, last week she wore a green polo with the Starbucks logo in the top corner. It makes me more curious than anything where she GETS clothing like that. It looks like the kind of polo baristas would have worn in the ’70s when Starbucks first opened. Also among her logo-ed collection are Microsoft, Walmart, and Ernst & Young accounting firm.

        She also wears cargo pants every day (khaki, black, army green), with black non-slip tennis shoes that waiters and waitresses often wear, which to me is definitely not business appropriate.

        For what it’s worth, it’s not a hill worth dying on since we don’t see TOO many front facing customers. It just doesn’t look very good to me the times we do see customers. I’m more just venting!

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Eh, honestly, I’d work hard to give her a real mental pass on footwear. There are a lot of reasons why people have to opt for those types of shoes.

          But I understand your criticism. I have a colleague who doesn’t look as put together as I think he should (all of his pants are about two inches too short). The only “recourse” I have is to go home and bitch about it to my partner.

          2. Freelance Accountant*

            Yes! I use to work with a fellow who was a little shorter than average, and he seemed to buy his pants off the rack and not get them tailored. The back hem of his pants would wear right down and fray because he was constantly stepping on the hem. And if it was rainy or snowy outside the hems would be just filthy. Not my place to say anything, and I know it’s a bit petty of me to pay attention to it, but I noticed (and judged, a little) constantly.

          3. Rainy*

            Same. In general I think that footwear requirements should be significantly less prescriptive than they are. Foot issues are rampant, and it’s annoying to be trash-talked for wearing footwear that isn’t going to kill your feet.

      2. Porgy*

        I just bought myself a sweater with lemons on it, and I have at least one shirt with a hot air balloon print. I own like four pairs of socks that AREN’T covered in some kind of crazy print. Today they have pizza slices on them. I’m sure some people think I’m bonkers, but my clothes are clean and when I need to dress up, I do. Life is too short to wear boring clothes.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Our business casual code includes no graphics on your shirts, no sweatshirts, no sports apparel, etc., even on jeans Fridays. So, it sounds inappropriate and embarrassing to me, but if someone else is wearing, say, a hockey jersey, I guess it’s fine, even though it’s ugly. I think it depends on the specifics of your dress code.

      1. Just Peachy*

        On Fridays, we are allowed to wear jeans, but are supposed to still wear:

        -A semi-dressy shirt on top, or
        -A half zip, jacket, or nice looking t-shirt with our company logo

        She’s just abused the dress code for so long (on Fridays and other days) that I feel like no one is ever going to say anything.

    4. hiptobesquared*

      Since she is your superior, the only thing you could do, especially if clients seem put off, it to speak to her manager (if you have a good relationship with them) about a dress code for client meetings.

      Other than that, if the position isn’t client facing, I say let her be comfortable.

    5. LKW*

      If they’re satisfied with the work she’s doing then they’ll be thinking “She is a really weird dresser but she does good work.”

      I had a friend a long time ago who had the worst style ever. For her birthday a group of us bought her some new clothes – a crisp vintage sleeveless top navy with white beading and a very hippy dippy brown, yellow, black and white skirt.

      She wore them together…

      1. Just Peachy*

        Hah, unfortunately she has a track record for being a pretty poor employee. She behaves pretty erratically when she receives any push back, so I think her boss probably thinks it’s just not worth it to bring up.

        The thought of that outfit combo is making me cringe though! At least you tried. :)

    6. NaoNao*

      Is it wrong I sort of want that sweater with the rainbow watches?

      Heh, all joking aside, perhaps you can “gift” her with a stack of glossy fashion mags that you’re “done with” or a fashion book you’re “getting rid of” or something?

      But lemme tell ya: I love fashion and live for fashion, style, textiles, the whole bit. And I am in the extreme minority of people on this planet. Most people are like “is your body covered? okay, cool.” Now if she’s, say, working at a VC firm in a tony part of town and meeting wealthy clients at Latest Hot Bistro in her Mickey Sweater, then in that case, you have a point!

      1. Forking Great Username*

        The magazine thing would probably: 1. Be super obvious and seem snarky. 2. Be super unhelpful. How often do you see office-appropriate clothing in fashion magazines?

        1. NaoNao*

          True! But I love fashion magazines because they give me ideas that I will then translate into more wearable stuff, and because they provide me with inspiration to dress up/nicely.
          I subscribe to many mags and it wouldn’t seem mean or snarky at all to just leave a stack on a coworkers’ desk “hey, I’m overloaded, thought you might like these!”

          Magazines can be pricey so I feel like this could go either way: nice gesture, or “mean girls”. Depends on the relationship I guess!

    7. Freelance Accountant*

      My old firm tried to do “Business Casual Fridays” for a while, with the stipulation that if you were meeting with a client the regular dress code applied. There were several emails sent to clarify what “Business Casual” meant, with lists of “These Types of Clothes are Acceptable” and “These Types of Clothes are Not Acceptable”, including pictures and examples.

      Most people were fine. But some . . . one woman wore, on several Fridays, yoga pants and a baseball jersey. Just way, waaayyyy too casual. I get that not everyone has an enormous wardrobe that can finesse the difference between Business / Business Casual / Casual / Literally Playing sports, but enough people had Friday client meetings that you could continue to just wear your regular work clothes instead and no one would even notice.

      Business Casual Fridays did not last long.

      On the flip side, one woman in our office was reprimanded for wearing dressy shorts, which were Not Allowed, even during our brief Business Casual Friday experiment. These shorts were REALLY dressy, and nice. They were almost to her knee (any longer and they’d be capris) with a cuff, proper waistband with belt loops, and a nice dark brown colour and quality fabric. With a nice blouse and dressy sandals, perfectly in the spirit of Business Casual. However, shorts were Not Allowed, and HR obviously didn’t want to get into policing the dressiness of everyone’s shorts, so HR told her she couldn’t wear them.

      Dress codes are just a huge headache.

    9. WellRed*

      I simply can’t take someone dressed like this seriously unless they work with kids or something.

    10. Oranges*

      From your other replies i think that your outrage over how she dresses is a bit of a red herring. She’s a bad employee who is getting a pass on following the dress code and management isn’t doing their job where she’s concerned. That would make me angry also.

      Is management failure impacting other areas? Probably. Is it something you can fix? Sadly no.

    11. Woman of a Certain Age*

      Yeah, since she’s your supervisor it really isn’t your place to say anything. If her supervisors, or even your customers were to complain about it, that would be different. I’m afraid that you’re just going to have to bite your lip.

      She reminds me of when I was in college there was a architecture professor in her 50s or 60s who had similar odd taste. Her clothes were all expensive and well-made, but she put together the most awful combinations of things. In particular I remember a bright green over-sized blouse with flowing bell sleeves and an oversized flowing wing-tipped collar combined with a tight mohair mini skirt over top of knit green leggings. And bright henna red hair. (This was back in the late 1970s and early 1980s.)

      When the art club had a Halloween party, someone came dressed as her for their costume.

  16. straws*

    I’m curious what people think about short online skills tests prior to a job interview. We typically send one to candidates before their first in-person interview. They’re brief (10-15 questions), the questions are aimed at getting a really basic idea of what they know (pretty low-level questions on grammar, reading, math, spreadsheets), and it’s specified that they aren’t expected to necessarily know everything. Our company works with a number of proprietary online applications, one of which allows us to administer tests. So a big part of sending this out is to see if they can enter the system and complete the task without a lot of hand-holding. The positions we send this for are 0-5 year experience jobs, so not upper management or high-level professional jobs. We’re getting some push-back on sending it because candidates could either be offended because the questions are too easy or lose interest in the job because they think the questions represent the role. The job posting is pretty clear, so I’m not so sure about the latter concern, but I was heavily involved in putting the process together so I was thinking some unbiased opinion would be helpful.

    1. k.k*

      I’ve had to take one of those, and was not too thrilled about it. The job was fairly entry level (I think 2-3 years experience) and required a degree. Given that to apply for the job you had to be a grown adult with a college degree, it felt a bit patronizing being given what felt like a middle school quiz. I completed it, because I’m in need of a job. But I rolled my eyes the whole time, and if I was in a position to be more selective I probably would have passed on applying.

        1. Free Meerkats*

          You’d think, but one of our unsuccessful candidates in our last hiring process failed because her writing essentially sucked. And she had a degree from a well respected institution.

          At the interview we do a practical test that requires reviewing data from a fictitious regulated user, identifying the violations, and writing a notice of violation – these are all essential for this position. We give them the report, the regulations, and a computer loaded with MS Office. Her notice was rife with grammar and spelling errors. She didn’t move on in the process.

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            But does this kind of test get at writing that sucks? It seems like a cover letter/writing sample/writing assignment later in the interview process/etc. would be a better way to get at that.

            1. Free Meerkats*

              For us, I think it does, they can’t have someone else proofread their work. And we DO leave all the spell and grammar checking in Word turned on.

              With our process (Civil Service), this is the time the writing test makes sense. It’s also a way to see if they can catch obvious and not so obvious problems in a report.

          2. Triple Anon*

            So, some people succeed in school despite all of that stuff. I mean they get the degree while still lacking basic knowledge. A test that people can do at home imitates an academic environment. Most people will be honest, but some people will get help and won’t be transparent about it. Probably the same people who did that to get through school. So if you’re going to have a skills test, I would administer it in a controlled environment, maybe onsite. And, to convey respect for applicants, make the questions challenging.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      It it was being sent to candidates with zero work experience then I might find it acceptable. Especially if it was for an intern role. But if I was applying for a Jr. Analyst position and questions asked me if I could do a mail merge in Word, then I’d really question what was going on.

    4. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      At this point, if the questions are this simple, can you confirm that they’re not cheating? Does it matter if they cheat?

      1. straws*

        I suppose it depends on what kind of cheating. For answering questions, I don’t care if the answer is already in your head or if you can quickly find the answer from another source. If they’re having someone else go to the website and log in for them because they can’t, that would be a pretty big concern. Then again, that would likely come out during the rest of the internet process.

    5. MLB*

      If it’s a good test of basic skills I think it’s fine. I’ve worked with plenty of people (in the IT field) who were great at their specific job but couldn’t perform basic functions in MS Office to save their life. And it was super frustrating.

      1. straws*

        Yes, those people are the ones that inspired this addition in the hiring process. It’s difficult to work at an internet-based company with employees who can’t successfully open a browser and visit a website, even after multiple assisted attempts (which is a thing that has happened here).

    6. Not So NewReader*

      This assumes they have good internet service, or they can easily get to good internet service.

      I think you run a very high risk of losing good candidates.
      I look at it like this, grammar and reading you can figure out by looking over their cover letter and their resume. If their cover letter matches most of what you had in your ad, then you can figure they can read.
      Math and spreadsheets can be covered in your ad by saying, “Please include your experience with math and spreadsheets.” Again, you will learn that they can read because they will include this.

      My husband took a practical test for a worldwide company. He was allowed an hour to do the test. He did it in 12.5 minutes. He got home and in the process of telling me about it he could not stop laughing. One of his many talking points is that the test had nothing to do with the job and he found it concerning that the company did not know that.
      My point is that while you are judging them on basic skills, they are judging YOU (your company) on a higher and broader level.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        PS. The court ruled that the test my husband took was discriminatory. The company was ordered to stop using the test. The advice I have read about tests includes this pearl: Run the test by your attorney to make sure it will hold up in court.

      2. straws*

        Good points! No one has come back with an internet problem, but that could certainly come up in the future. It probably makes more sense to include anything that we really need to test on in the actual interview using our own internet/resources.

        1. zora*

          Yeah, I would be strongly in support of doing it during the interview with your own resources. It just feels different to me as a candidate to do it all in one block of time, rather than be expected to devote my own time before I even come in. Plus, the issues of logistical problems others brought up.

          But I do think skills tests are a good idea!! I agree with your reasoning for these positions, but do it on site.

    7. Anony*

      It makes more sense to me to do that after the 1st interview if you decide to move forward with them. That lets them know that you aren’t just wasting their time and gives you a chance to explain the goal of the test.

      1. Anony*

        Ideally, set aside half an hour or so during the second interview and give them access to a computer. Then internet access won’t be an issue and they know you are seriously considering them. If it takes too much time to do it during the interview, then it takes too much time period.

        1. straws*

          Yes, I like this idea and said something similar above. The “test” only takes 10 minutes, but we could even truncate it down since we’d be in the office with them. A quick log in and navigate around the system would be more than enough.

        2. Betsy*

          I actually hated the one time I had to do a test in the interview. There was time pressure, and I was really nervous in a way I wouldn’t have been at all if I had been completing a similar task as an employee. It was a fairly low-level admin role, so it wasn’t like I was applying to be an air traffic controller. I think a significant number of people perform badly on practical tasks under exam type conditions. One of the tasks was also to write a formal email to communicate with someone in the department about a grant. As I wasn’t sure how formal their office culture actually was, I think I over-compensated by being far too formal, but it’s an industry where expected levels of formality differ between departments. I really felt like part of what they were rewarding people for was just correctly guessing department culture.

    8. Natalie*

      Grammar, reading, and arithmetic are pretty odd things to test people on for a professional job. You should be able to determine from their application materials and interactions with them whether or not they can read, and grammar and arithmetic don’t sound relevant to the job enough to risk unintentional bias issues. I would definitely be puzzled by it as an applicant and it would make me concerned that the job was lower level than described. If I had other irons in the fire I would probably withdraw.

      That said, since the primary purpose is to see if people can self-direct online, is there some other thing you could have them do like fill out a form or do one of those MS Office tests? Those seem more normal, so even if they aren’t strictly necessary they shouldn’t raise eyebrows to candidates.

      1. Natalie*

        Ah, you said in another comment that this is for jobs that don’t require a college degree. That seems less odd to me, so I wouldn’t be quite as concerned that you’re turning off good candidates by having a weird requirement no one else has. But I still think an MS Office test would come across as more typical.

      2. straws*

        Also good points. As suggested a few times above, I’m thinking that having them go in during the interview and navigate would solve many of the issues coming up. Part of our goal was to make sure we weren’t making candidates come in if they were obviously deficient in something. But I also think some of that might have been fueled by some less-than-honest self-assessments on the part of previous hires. This gives me a lot (of good things!) to think about.

    9. Seespotbitejane*

      It matters a bit how the tests are structured. For instance Prove It! tests are infuriating. You use a software emulator to prove you can do a mail merge or make a pivot table or whatever but if you don’t use exactly the keystrokes the test wants you can still get the answer wrong. And I’ve definitely taken “customer service” tests that ask questions like “Do you think a customer can ever be wrong?” and you lose points if you answer yes. I don’t want to work somewhere that before I’ve even interviewed is already docking me points for failing to tow what I think is an unreasonable company line.

      There are so many crappy tests out there that frankly the content of yours doesn’t much matter, you’ll definitely have people passing on it because they assume it’s another one.

      2. A*

        Agreed. I took an Office skills test recently that had very specific menu options they wanted me to use and marked me wrong if I tried to use keyboard shortcuts. Super aggravating.

        1. Chaordic One*

          Quite a few years ago I took one that was the opposite. It wanted me to use keyboard shortcuts and when I tried to use menu options I was dinged for it. I didn’t get an offer for that job.

    10. Guacamole Bob*

      I would have rolled my eyes at this pretty hard when I was new to the workforce 10-15 years ago. I expected basic skills testing from a temp agency since they get such a wide range of applicants and fill a wide range of positions, but for a regular professional position, can’t you see from my resume what kinds of skills and education I have? My instinct is that if you really need to give me a test of basic grammar and math, you’re probably hiring for a position that I’m overqualified for in some significant way.

      Do you talk about the purpose of the test in the phone screen before you send it to them (“we like to see how candidates do with our software”)? It sounds like you’ve been doing this for a while, so have you found that you get meaningful information from the results?

    11. DaniCalifornia*

      I’ve sent very short skill ones to two positions we’ve hired for. One is a seasonal temporary position. It’s not a position that we could let someone go the first week and hire someone else. It’s the most boring job ever but you need to be extremely detailed from the start or you will mess up several people’s work flows after you. It’s not a position that requires a degree or really any kind of experience. Just that you can be detailed oriented and follow our directions to the letter.

      The second is our front desk person. This is the person who emails 100% of our clients and our boss is particular about how we address them. Cover letters and resumes can be edited by others who have better grammar and spelling than the applicant so I like the short test for this again. This position does not require a degree either.

    12. Solo*

      Short skills challenges (1h MAX) that are targeted to the job seem totally OK for some professions, such as simple coding challenges for a programming interview. When I was working temp assignments for administrative roles, I took a lot of typing speed tests and tests on common office software (Excel/Word). In some cases these were after a phone interview but prior to an in-person interview. In a couple of cases I had on-site exams during an in-person interview. I would say I’d expect a general-computer-literacy test for a job that doesn’t require a degree. I’d also expect short skills challenges for a job that’s targeting the recent college graduate crowd.

      But now that I am somewhat established in my career, if I received a general-computer-literacy test for a job that requires my experience, I might feel somewhat insulted and would definitely be questioning whether the organization could be a decent fit for me. (It’s also a relevant data point to me that most of the interviews I’ve had with a rote skills challenge wound up with the interviewer giving me the feedback that ‘we thought you were great! but we also think you would get bored with this role, so we’re not going to make an offer.’)

    13. Tutor Recruiter*

      I’m following this. I recruit for a tutoring company and it’s rather appalling how many people can make it through a phone screen, a second interview *with a teachback exercise* and still be unable to tutor for us because they don’t have a strong enough grasp of the concepts that we tutor. I’d love to give our tutor a short academic test before hiring them to make sure we weren’t wasting each other’s time.

    14. Jiya*

      I once applied for an entry-level professional job that would involve extensive, sometimes-difficult customer interaction, writing under time pressure, and use of computer databases. As part of the application process, I was asked to come in for a test, and it was on…basic grammar and spelling. For me, at least, it was instantly off-putting – I thought that their HR was wasting my time, because you couldn’t even get to that stage in the process in the first place without graduating college or having several years of related work experience. And that seed of doubt about their HR made me doubt the organization as a whole.

      I actually got hired by a different branch of the same org a year later at a higher pay level, and the test was a timed essay prompt, which at least has some faint relationship to the job duties. And actually, FWIW, that job was really good to me.

  17. Lillie*

    Do they still have typing lessons at school anymore? Or if not, do kids still have ‘formal’ typing training? In the electronic age I guess most people start using computers (or tables/phones) before they’d need them for school, so does typing just ‘happen’ now?

    I ask because I’ve noticed a lot of my younger (early-20s) colleagues don’t seem to type using the ‘standard’ approach (i.e. use certain fingers for certain keys) and just tap away freestyle. (For context, I’m in my early-30s and didn’t type regularly until I was about 11.) They’re pretty efficient at it (and really, they don’t actually need to type super-fast for the job they do), but it made me wonder if this kind of ‘standardised’ typing is going out of style.

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      I’m 26 and did take a typing class in middle school, but i’m a bit older than the age range you’re asking about.

      1. Emily*

        Also 26, and I had typing lessons in elementary school (I’m pretty sure that’s where I first learned touch typing) and in middle school.

    3. Artemesia*

      I see young people mostly as rapid hunt and peck typists and it seems unfortunate that they don’t early on get a few weeks instruction and practice in touch typing. It would make it all so much easier. I don’t think you pick that up without a little instruction. Touch typing is probably the most useful thing I learned as a teen.

    4. Ambpersand*

      I don’t think they do. Just a few weeks ago I was talking about this to a 17 year old high school co-op who works in my department. I’m only 10 years older than her (and went to the same school), but she complimented me one day on how quickly I could type. I laughed it off and told her it was because I had to take a computer keyboarding class in HS during my freshman year, and it was like typing boot camp. She was a little wowed because she had no idea classes like that even existed, and it didn’t sound like they still even offered it.

      1. Anony*

        I still remember those cardboard boxes they put over the keyboard so that we couldn’t see. I hated it!

        1. Ambpersand*

          Yes! We had those, and these black rubber covers that were vacuum formed to the keyboard like second skin. I hated the class at the time but it really saved my butt during college when I could write my English papers in half the time of my other classmates!

          1. Mimmy*

            That’s something we emphasize to keyboarding students at my job – that learning to touch-type helps you become more efficient in your work.

            By the way, when my co-instructor was the primary keyboard instructor, she sometimes used a box for students who had usable vision to force them to not look at the keys, but it was usually the box that one of the keyboards came in, lol.

        2. As Close As Breakfast*

          Lol, I was just thinking of the covers! Ours were wooden bench type things that I think the wood shop teacher probably made. I regularly (jokingly) threaten to get one for my boss because he uses a pretty slow hunt and peck method that involves staring intently at the keyboard. I’m in my mid-30s and he’s only in his mid-40s, so it’s kind of interesting how someone another 10 or so years younger might also differ in typing training.

        3. D.W.*

          Yes! We had those too, and I hated it, but literally one of the most useful skills I have now.

          Students in schools where this skill is not being taught are definitely missing out. Being a fast hunt-and-peck typist doesn’t compare.

          1. Ambpersand*

            Even if they can type fast, the hunt-and-peck method isn’t very helpful when you’re copying text from one document to another, either. I love that I can look at a second screen/piece of paper and type the new text without looking. Its just so satisfying!

            1. Alternative Person*

              I had to do some audio transcription this week and I couldn’t have done within the time I had without being able to touch type.

              Also I’ve carried on conversations with other people whilst touch typing, it really weirds them out.

              I never got formal training and essentially learned to touch type over time and semi-necessity and it is so useful. I feel bad for people who never did learn/never picked it up. I really worry about the progression of technology in general, with all the swiping, tap and go going on, I worry that fast typing is going to go the way of handwriting.

    5. Goya de la Mancha*

      I think the class was offered at my high school? but I don’t know of anyone who took it. I self taught all of my typing skills from growing up on ICQ, AIM, MSN (aging myself aren’t I). I can do about 74 wpm at 100% accuracy, but I do not follow conventional typing rules at all. The only thing I can say I do is hover my hands at homerow. other then that….I just let the fingers fly and don’t worry about which finger is hitting the shift, or “R” key.

      1. Mimmy*

        I’ll admit that this is a slight qualm I have about touch-typing…it’s feels very nit-picky.

        As I mentioned in my comment below, I’m a keyboarding instructor and follow a touch-typing curriculum using a program for the blind & visually-impaired. The instructions in the program are very specific about which fingers to use for specific keys. When I see students deviating from the proper fingering, I want to correct them, but feel like it’s very nit-picky. I do strongly encourage using the correct fingers, but will tell a student that it’s fine to deviate as long as they are consistent to ensure accuracy.

    6. MeM*

      Most of my nieces and and nephews have taken it, but called it “keyboarding” instead of typing. (They are all in Florida.

    7. MLB*

      Not sure but I took a typing class in HS (in the late 80s), but went into programming so there wasn’t a lot of straight typing after college papers. So I hunt and peck with about 5 or 6 fingers and type really fast. Granted I have to look at the keyboard, but if I set my fingers on the correct keys, I have to think too hard about where the letters are and I’m way too slow.

      1. Samata*

        My mom can almost keep up with me and she is a hunter and pecker. I took typing in hs 20+ years ago and last tested at 70 WPM. I’d ballpark her around 60. The only difference is she has to look at the keyboard and I don’t.

    8. Anonygoose*

      I’m 25 now, and I vaguely recall some typing lessons when I was about 6 or 7 (with the focus on the home keys and things) but I don’t think we ever really officially were taught. I think I generally know the home keys but my typing habits just evolved separately of that because I had to do it so frequently I didn’t focus too much on the ‘right’ way to do it. I imagine most people my age and younger are similar. I type about 60-65 wpm so my speed isn’t impacted too much, I don’t think.

    9. Julianne*

      I work in a large urban public school district. Our kids do not have dedicated time to learn keyboarding, although they use computers pretty frequently. In my building, I would say that students in grades 3-8 generally use computers in content classes for various purposes 4 out of 5 days per week. (For example, to type essays, do research in content area classes, online math practice, etc.) Unfortunately like handwriting before it, keyboarding is one of those simple, essential skills that we just can’t make time for, especially with the current standardized testing regime. Additionally, many districts emphasize time spent on “deep, meaningful, cognitively demanding” learning, and so there is pressure to not devote time to activities seen as more basic.

      Last year I actually had my students do some keyboarding using an online program we have access to through the district. Even though the program is well-paced and incorporates many games and activities to practice typing, my students strongly resisted 10-finger typing. Most persisted in hunt-and-peck typing. Maybe it would have been different if I was the keyboarding teacher, but I’m the English teacher, and I had/have too many other fights to fight to devote energy to getting kids to do 10-finger typing.

      2. friday fran*

        It suddenly occurred to me to wonder whether smaller-size keyboards were available for children, just like there are smaller-sized violins and basketballs. It must be difficult to see the value in learning 10-finger typing when the pinky finger has a long reach.

        1. Julianne*

          That might be true on full-sized keyboards. My students only have access to Chromebooks in school, so I don’t think that was a factor in that case. I could definitely see where building the muscle memory for the required finger movements was challenging for my students, though.

    10. Curious Cat*

      I’m 22 and had a formal typing class in the 6th grade! My baby boomer dad types everything with his index fingers, which drives me crazy. Not sure if it’s still happening in schools, though.

    11. Persephone Mulberry*

      My son is 10/5th grade and has had touch typing integrated into the curriculum since…third grade I think? He is expected to complete X minutes of typing practice as part of his homework each week.

      My 17 year old also touch types, although I don’t remember exactly when or how it was introduced for him.

    12. Namast'ay in Bed*

      They offered typing classes back when I was in middle school (late 90s, early 2000s), but I never took one. But I did learn the standard approach from watching my mom type and from my girl Mavis Beacon.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I know that a lot of people have made fun of Mavis over the years. But she knows her stuff and her DVDs about learning keyboarding work.

    13. KR*

      I graduated high school in 2012. We had computer class in elementary school where we played Type to Learn on those multi colored Mac Desktops. We had other projects where we made PowerPoints about planets and practiced doing kid friendly research, but a lot of classes were just straight Type to Learn. I also spent a lot of time on the computer when I was a teen in chatrooms and playing games. I don’t follow the typing “rules” religiously, but rather type what feels natural to me. I still can do 70+ wpm if I’m rushing but I’ve never felt I get more work done or faster by typing faster.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I’m late 30s and was forced to join a computer class at sixth form (further ed) college – then kicked out as my very very fast typing was distracting the others.

        I don’t touch type with all the correct fingers but I do touch type (I once failed to notice that a bunch of letters had worn off my keyboard). At 133 wpm!

        1. Reba*

          My computer at home has a keyboard, picked out by my computer nerd-ish spouse, with large, comfortable mechanical movements (as opposed to the flat keys on many laptops). I type so fast on it and it is LOUD! I feel so powerful clacking away!

    15. Emma*

      The responses above have been interesting to read because I’m 29 and never had any kind of formal computer training. I actually grew up with a computer in my childhood home, my dad was an early adopter of technology, but he taught me how to use it and I went to substandard public schools so there was definitely no typing class. I turned out fine in terms of tech, I work as a designer, but most of the people I know around my age that went to so-so or worse public schools didn’t get any formal training having to do with computers.

    16. Lady Jay*

      I’m in higher ed, and my impression is that no, “kids these days” are not trained in formal typing. I see the “hunt & peck” method used, and my colleagues tell me that when they type without looking at their hands, the students are surprised that the work comes out correctly.

      It’s a shame, because in my perception, this slows student work down a lot.

      1. Lady Jay*

        I should add: I was homeschooled, graduated HS in 2003, and I *did* take a typing course (Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing, I believe). It’s been very useful.

    17. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      My daughter is 20 and graduated from high school 2 years ago. They did not teach touch-typing in either middle or high school.

      That said, I’m 47 and I never learned to formally touch-type either. I type all day at work and have written novel-length fiction in my off hours and it doesn’t slow me down at all.

    18. Ten*

      I think it varies by school district, similarly to teaching cursive writing; some do and some don’t. FWIW, I did take formal typing classes in school but didn’t retain the skill at all, and I can type just as fast as the next person doing it my own way.

    19. Green Goose*

      I’m in my early thirties and I never learned the standard type. I only use four fingers when I type and I’m pretty efficient at it. I’ve always wondered if people noticed that I type “wrong”.

    20. Middle School Teacher*

      Our school got rid of info pro (as it was called) a few years ago to bring in “fun” options and every year I beg for it to come back. I am always told we will have to drop something else and also they should be learning it in grade 4-5. The grade 4-5 teachers never do it and say it should be done in jr high. It makes me crazy that we expect kids to do tons on stuff on the computer but no one seems to be teaching typing.

    21. zora*

      I’m 39, I didn’t take it in school, but my mom forced me to take typing lessons one summer around 7th grade, and then required me to practice a certain amount of time per week for the rest of the summer. (On our electric typewriter! We were late adopters). I hated it at the time, but now I’m so glad I did it, my typing speed has been a good asset for me.

      My mom teaches elementary school, and the middle grades learn typing as part of their biweekly(?) computer skills class. They have basic typing instruction, and by 6th grade are learning basic coding stuff. That is just crazy to me, but I think it’s great!

    22. Ejane*

      I’m 25, and I took typing lessons in middle school–and would use Mavis Beacon in high school required computer classes because I was bored out of my mind, but I’m not a conventional touch-typer.
      My hands naturally fall close to the middle, but not on the home keys; they’re usually a bit above. I also have a tendency to levitate my left pinky while typing, like i’m drinking from a teacup. I have NO IDEA why. I’ve got good muscle memory for where things are, but I can lose my way and get stuck a key to the right or above where I need to be, and then I look down at the keyboard.
      I think part of the problem is how much time my generation and the generation after me spends on the computer or using a qwerty-format keyboard; any touch-typing learning we have is overpowered by the amount of time we spend typing organically, so it’s very hard to rewire.

    23. Orca*

      I took a keyboarding class in HS in what would have been 2007 or 2008. I already was an extremely fast hunt and peck typist (not quite the right words as I don’t look at the keyboard, but) and my mom made me take it because I didn’t type “properly”. The first day they did a wpm test just to see where everyone was and the teacher was definitely like “why are you taking this.” I never got faster than my hunt and peck so I still do that now.

    24. M*

      I’m 22 and did take a typing class in middle school, but I think it was an elective class that also got bundled with art for some reason, so half the year we did typing and then we switched with the art class.

    25. mAd Woman*

      I’m 27 and took typing class in middle school. But my fingers are really short so I literally can’t reach all the keys from the standard position and just freestyle it.

    26. Aurion*

      I did have a keyboarding glass available in high school back in the day, but I took it for easy marks because…I had wicked keyboarding skills by the time I started high school that only improved when I discovered the internet. I practiced my keyboarding at home with a Resident Evil (or some sort of zombie typing game), and honed it with MSN chatting with my internet friends in high school. The teacher for the keyboarding class got to the point where he said “I have to test you on this but you know and I know you don’t need it” (my friends and I had competitions on who can set the record highs for the class; we were both around the 95 WPM mark at the time).

      So I can certainly understand schools not having classes for this nowadays but I feel like it’s something you can easily practice at home with a computer. I’m sure there’s more online typing practice available than back then. And being able to touch-type without looking at the keyboard pays off in spades when I have to transcribe something.

    27. JustaTech*

      I’m 34 and I almost failed 10th grade because I could not pass the Mavis Becon teaches typing software test. I went home and practiced every night and cried and finally the teacher and my parents were like “whatever, she’s changing schools, who cares”.
      I didn’t really learn to type well until Instant Messaging was a thing.

    28. MsChanandlerBong*

      I’m in my thirties, and I never had to take typing in school. I don’t type correctly, but I test at over 100 WPM, so it doesn’t seem to be hurting me any.

    29. Elizabeth West*

      We had it when I was in high school, but I didn’t take it–it wasn’t mandatory. I didn’t learn how to type properly until like 1993 or so, and then it was Mavis Beacon.

      Fun fact: Joining a real-time chat room in 2003 helped me improve my typing speed. I had to type fast to keep up!

    30. Windchime*

      My kids both took keyboarding in school in the early 2000’s. One of them types correctly according to “home row” position. The other types with three fingers of his left hand and two on his right. His typing is super fast and accurate but looks really funny when he does it.

    31. Mimmy*

      I’ve been touch-typing from a young age and almost never have to look down at the keys. I’ve been working as a keyboarding instructor for almost a year, so now I notice when people aren’t doing it the “correct” way. I do think touch-typing is a very useful skill, but I try not to be overly-strict about using specific fingers if a student finds using alternate fingers is more comfortable. For example, the “correct” finger for the C key is the middle finger, but a lot of people find it easier to use the index finger. I tell them that, as long as you’re consistent (so that you’re always hitting the right key), it’s fine.

      By the way, my students are blind and visually impaired adults, and the range of experience and openness to learning touch-typing is interesting. Many of the students who are blind from birth or a very young age were taught in grammar school, so they already have excellent typing skills when I first meet them (all students must have keyboarding classes where I work, even if they only need to see me for a couple of weeks). Those who lost their vision later in life were generally hunt-and-peck typers in the past, so I get to teach them the “proper” techniques; many of these students really appreciate learning this skill and tell me my class is one of their favorites.

      While I don’t love my job, I have come to appreciate the benefits of learning to touch-type. If anyone wants to hear more from the instructor side, shoot me a comment :)

    32. Nope*

      I’m 36 and never learned typing in school. It was an elective at my high school, but it was offered one period a semester and I know they struggled to get enough students every spring.

    33. Koala dreams*

      I’m in my 30s and had typing lessons in primary school. Our computer class in high school didn’t have a typing component. Today a lot of schools use iPads or similar instead of laptops/computers. I don’t think I could type very fast on an iPad, even though I’m pretty good with a traditional keyboard. Luckily my job is all keyboards, and no iPads.
      I also want to add that typing games online did more for my typing speed compared to school.

    34. /amqueue*

      While I realize I’m not in the range of ‘kids these days’, I wanted to comment anyway.

      My dad taught me to touch type out of a paperback book on an old mechanical typewriter when I was 9. He noticed that when I was trying to write an essay, my handwriting (which I’d learned in 2-3rd grade, parochial school) couldn’t keep up with my thoughts and I’d either lose concepts or be unable to read my own writing. The other kids in grammar school thought it was weird that all my English stuff was typed, tho the teachers were impressed. I did get to use an electric typewriter for actual homework. Intriguingly enough, I noticed that after I learned typing, my guitar playing improved, and I was able to trade off on that for a while.

      When I got to high school, we were changing school districts and missed the correct meeting to get me placed, so I was placed in the ‘average’ track my first year, which involved ‘survey of business courses’ (a few weeks in each of the business courses the school offered), one of which was typing. I don’t recall a box over the keyboard, but I do recall getting corrected on proper posture and positioning, most especially regarding having my feet flat on the floor and hands up off the keyboard. (the only other classes I recall were business math, which made no sense to me, in that it was all just arithmetic, and business machines, where I expanded my touch typing to a 10column push button machine with a big lever to input the numbers. that was fun!)

      When in college (in the early 1980s) I was in a school that was on the ARPAnet and had a very strong computer science department. One person could type faster than the computer could echo (tho it didn’t lose any characters) and he’d realize he’d made a mistake and hit delete key, and keep going, sometimes before the characters showed up on the screen. My husband touch typed also, which was interesting with his mild dyslexia. I believe he learned in high school, but I’m not sure.

      When realtime chat stuff started up (IRC, ICQ, etc) I found that I would fail to correct minor typo/transpositions (teh, hte, wiht, et alia) because getting the line out in time for the conversation felt more important. After a while of that, I found myself making those type of mistakes in my handwriting, both cursive and printing. It was very odd the first time I noticed…

      I think, in my late teens, I typed 70-90. One typing test I took in the early 2000 had me 90-100. I don’t know what it is now.

  18. curious*

    A little long….. Ok I’m actually asking this for a friend who fearful that this post would get back to her employer. My friend, Jane, is getting back to work after taking time off for an extended maternity leave. She took a long term temp assignment. The company she is working for will be closing down in the next two years. As employees leave, they are being replaced with long term temps, like Jane.

    One of Jane’s coworkers, who wears way too many hats to begin with, was a bit overwhelmed with some new projects. Jane offered to take over some of them and the Coworker would be available to answer questions.

    Recently someone in upper management left and was replaced with a long term temp, Jarod. Jarod has a flexable schedule -in the office 3 days a week and works remotely 2 days (not sure if that is an important factor in this situation). Jarod has a lot of excellent experience in a majority (90%) of the upper management job requirements. However the remaining 10% of common industry tasks, Jarod’s experience doesn’t extend beyond a textbook definition knowledge. While it’s understandable that no one will have 100% knowledge of a job, there are rumors that Jarod fibbed a bit claiming to know this material. Based on how Jarod acts, Jane and Coworker are assuming that in the past Jarod delegated these tasks.

    This project that Jane took over from Coworker is a common industry task. Jane is getting a bit uncomfortable with Jarod – Jarod is asking her for her training notes; Jarod standing over her while she works on project; Jarod wants to sit in on training sessions to make sure that Jane is “understanding” it; Jarod has not been a great resource of help . While Jane is the ultimate team player, she gets the feeling that Jarod is trying to learn with Jane (totally acceptable) and take credit for the work since he “oversees Jane’s work”. From what I’ve been told it seems like Jarod is riding her coattails. Unfortunately these tasks aren’t something that can be watermarked. With Jane being a temp she doesn’t want to be petty going to HR/ someone higher up. Is there something Jane can do to protect herself? Or is Jane making a big deal out of something that isn’t?

    1. MLB*

      Since the company isn’t going to be around much longer, I don’t really think she should worry about it. If the job was going to turn into a permanent gig I’d say bring it up to someone, but IMO this is more of a “yeah it’s crap but just suck it up and ride it out”.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreeing and adding:
        If Jane wants to do something about it, the best thing she can do is put herself out there. Talk with people, be knowledgeable and friendly. The subtly is not lost. People quickly pick up on who knows what. Through ordinary conversations with others Jane can show her confidence in her working knowledge.
        So what does this look like? It could mean take actual breaks in the break room so there is an opportunity to meet others. It could mean taking walks on nice days and meeting cohorts that way. It definitely means every time she picks up the phone she puts on her “professional best” because you never know when the person on the other end of the line might pop up later on in her career.

        Sorry, simplistic analogy here. I have some screwdrivers and some hammers and a couple saws. Just because I own these tools does not mean I know how to build furniture. Likewise with Jane’s boss, just because he is acquiring some of Jane’s tools/skills and just because he claims her work as his does not mean he will make out well in the long run. When a future employer says, “Okay build me a dining room table”, he probably won’t know how to do that. But Jane will and she will be okay with that future employer.
        Encourage her that time levels the playing field. If everything else is okay with this job, then she should let the job sharpen her in as many ways as she can and then move on. Her next employer will be very impressed with her.

      2. Anony*

        I would agree. It sounds really annoying, but it doesn’t sound like it is affecting her current work or hurting her job prospects. For me, it wouldn’t be worth making waves.

    3. Casuan*

      Jane doesn’t need to “protect” herself here, imho.
      Let Jarod be Jarod & time will show his strengths & weaknesses.
      Even if he’s temp, still he’s management. So it’s reasonable to assume that Jarod will have some credit for Jane’s work. Jane can help herself by keeping good track of her responsibilities & successes &or building her own portfolio so when she does move on she’ll have a record of her work.
      The caveat here is that Jane’s employer owns her work, so she’ll need to be sure not to betray that (sorry- I don’t know how to phrase this better).

      If Jarod wants Jane’s training notes… I’m not clear if that implies industry handouts or her personal notes? If the latter, I think she’s within her rights to refuse although that would be a bit awkward.

  19. Future Analyst*

    AAMers with kids: how many sick days do you usually take a year to take care of your kids? And does your spouse split the time with you? (E.g. I take this day, you take the next?) Just curious about the spread.

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      I take 1-2 sick days a year. My husband has way more vacation/sick days accrued and it’s an absolute pain for me to get a sub last minute during flu season. My husband has taken one sick days this school and this school year, I have taken none.

    2. Murphy*

      My daughter’s less than a year old, but she’s in daycare, so she’s been sick a fair amount, as I have I, so I can’t remember how many days I’ve taken were because she was sick and how many were because I or both of us were sick.

      In general, my husband and I split the sick days and her doctor’s appointments based on a few factors. He has one bank of PTO (sick, vacation, and holidays) but he’s exempt, so he can miss some time and not have to take PTO. I have sick and vacation in separate banks, and I’m nonexempt, so every hour I miss I have to either use PTO or make it up that week. Last time she was sick we each took a day, I stayed home with her when he had a big meeting and he stayed home the next day. She was sick enough that she had to be taken out of daycare and brought to the doctor one day, and I did it because I’m closer to her daycare.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        If it makes you feel any better, the daycare sicknesses do reduce in frequency, or at least they did with my daughter. When we first put her in daycare, my husband and I traded a cold back and forth for about 6 months. It was awful. My daughter of course got it, got over it, and then was fine, while we alternately felt like we’d been run over by a freight train. After the first few months, it got much better.

        1. Murphy*

          Thanks, it’s just been tough! She’s gotten several colds (all of which I’ve gotten, some of which my husband has gotten), hand foot mouth disease, RSV (with a persistent cough), and a stomach virus. Those last three all since December. Oh, and she got a food allergy in there. (That one’s obviously unrelated to daycare, but it did lead to missed work and doctor’s visits.)

          1. Guacamole Bob*

            Ugh – that sounds like the first year that our twins were in daycare! It was seriously rough for a while. We didn’t have any RSV, but they did get pinkeye a couple of times, at least one ear infection, croup, and something that may or may not have been strep.

            If it makes you feel any better, they’re four now and the only time I’ve taken in the past few months for my kids’ health has been to take them for annual physicals and flu shots. I had to take my daughter in to the doctor for a sick visit back in May, but I think that was the most recent unplanned sick time?

          2. Ann Furthermore*

            Oh man, that sounds awful. For us it was just run-of-the-mill colds, which was bad enough. But we used a daycare that someone ran from their home, so there were not as many kids sharing their specific version of the Andromeda Strain.

        2. TheCupcakeCounter*

          Seconding this – the first year is a nightmare but my son hasn’t missed more than 2 days of year per year for illness since then.

      2. Future Analyst*

        Yeah, that’s similar to our situation. My husband is exempt, so can WFH for the day when the kids are really ill (he ends up working much of that night then, too), and I’m NE, so I have to use PTO if I’m home.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I went to every appt., so in the early years and we alternated home sick days as best we could, so it was probably 8-10 days a year (we sometimes called daycare “the Petri dish”), and then at school age we started alternating or choosing who stayed home based on how flexible our schedules for that day, so probably 4-5 days.

    4. Tableau Wizard*

      Our “in theory” plan was for my husband to take more sick days for our daughter because his job offers sick time separate from vacation/PTO and because I started a new job with very little PTO.

      In reality, it usually falls to me, the mom. For one reason or another, his work schedule seems to be a bit more rigid than mine – and I think the “Reason” is that I’m a mom who can/will more easily cancel/miss something for a sick kid and he’s the dad that can’t/won’t.

      It’s a bit of a struggle. We’ve probably taken 5 or so days in the last 12 months – some full, some half.

    5. NoName*

      My spouse works only part time, so if the kiddo is sick on a day he doesn’t work – he automatically is the one to stay home. He also usually can arrange a sub for his other work days, so he handles the bulk of “kid is sick” days. If he is also sick, or if he can’t get a sub, THEN I stay home.

      I think we have had 8 days of kiddo being home sick from school in the past 12 months? And a week of that was the flu last fall which isn’t usual, and both parents were sick too so we were taking sick time anyway.

      I have had to take a decent amount of time to go to appointments with kiddo (managing some ongoing conditions – we tried having just one parent take him to the appointments but we always end up with the non-attending parent needing to call and ask their own questions so it makes sense for us both to go). But that’s a different question than dealing with a typical kiddo with no “extra” health conditions.

    6. Ann Furthermore*

      I work from home 3 days a week, plus my schedule is super flexible. And my husband runs a machine shop, so those are not options for him. So I am usually the one to stay home with the sick kiddo. However, he always offers to stay home if I’m not able to. Plus I travel a fair amount, and he’s had to stay home a few times when I’ve been on the road. So it pretty much evens out in the end.

    7. King Friday XIII*

      I have some flexibility with relief days during the week, so if I know the day before that kiddo is sick (like daycare calls about a fever) I will often stay home. But my wife has more PTO and her job is less dependent on coverage so it’s often a little bit of a word problem who will be the “best” choice to stay home with her.

    8. NW Mossy*

      A timely question, as I respond from my kitchen table sitting across from a sick toddler. Mr. Mossy just went into the office to work on something he can’t do from home, and will be back around lunchtime to let me get some stuff done. Depending on kiddo’s nap schedule, I’ll either dial into meetings or reschedule them.

      We’re fortunate in that we both have fairly flexible office jobs and that on the relatively rare occasions that the kids get sick, they tend to spend most of the day sleeping it off. My job’s a bit tougher to juggle for a last-minute need simply because most of my work is meetings with others, but it’s rare that I have a day where I absolutely must be physically present.

    9. Anony*

      I don’t have kids, but when I was a kid both of my parents worked. My dad never took a sick day to take care of us. My mom would when possible, but as a teacher it was difficult. Instead, often she would drop us off at the neighbor’s house when we were too sick to go into school.

      1. NacSacJack*

        When I was a kid, my parents never took time off from work when we were sick. (Hospital visits not withstanding).

    10. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think I took about 3-4 days last year for my toddler daughter. She is taken care of 3 days by my MIL and 2 days by my friend, who has 2 toddler boys of her own. Most of the time I will take that first day off and stay home with her, so I can monitor her and get her to the doctor or whatever. If she’s still sickly the next day, I usually send her to my MIL – there are no other kids are her house and she is happy to take care of her.

      I have tons more PTO than my husband (I’m a state employee so I have like 3+ months built up right now and he only gets 3 weeks PTO every year), and also his job used to be more shift-based and there would only be one or two other guys at the data center, whereas it’s pretty easy for me to take a day off. However he was recently promoted to a more manager level with a flexible schedule so he will probably take some more time off than he used to, especially since I’m pregnant again and trying to save all my PTO for my maternity leave.

    11. Thlayli*

      I have a Childminder who comes to the house to mind the kids. One of the reasons we do it this way is because she gets sick a lot less than the kids do! So far I’ve only had to take one sick day to mind the kids when my Childminder was too sick to work. My husband was out of the country at the time so the question of who would do it didn’t even come up.

      1. Thlayli*

        Note my kids were actually sick at the time too so I was able to take a “force majeure day” which is when you have to take off to mind a sick family member – so I didn’t have to even take a “sick” day.

    12. Juli G.*

      I do the majority because I have paid time off and the ability to work from home and my husband has neither. It’d be a more equitable split otherwise. If I can’t miss something, he’ll take a day or leave early/go in late.

    13. Guacamole Bob*

      I have twin 4-year-olds, and this has varied so much. They had one of us or a nanny home with them for the first 18 months, so we only had to miss when they were super-sick and needed to go to the doctor or the nanny was ill – a couple of days a year. Then they started daycare and it felt like the illness was constant. We’d trade off and/or each work partial days, and catch up in the evenings. We both had super-busy but super-flexible jobs at that point, so it was just a lot of juggling. If it looked like the kids would be sick for several days (because they nearly always got sick sequentially!), we’d call family to drive up and stay with us for a few days, but even so one of them probably needed a parent home at least 10 days that first year, maybe more.

      Now we’re in different jobs and they’re older, and they get sick way less. My job has more PTO, so I end up doing a bit more of the coverage, but we juggle based on whose work that day is more urgent, who can work from home or call in to meetings, etc. I started my job two years ago and I’ve used 7 days of sick time total in that time, and that includes taking a couple of hours at a time for annual physicals, getting the kids flu shots, taking them to the dentist, some doctors and dentist visits of my own, etc. It’s probably only like 3 days of actually staying home with a sick kid. My wife has probably taken a bit less, but still a few days.

    14. LisaB*

      Depends on the age of the kids- the younger they are, the more time you’ll blow through. The first year with both of my kids I blew through all of my annual sick time, and that WAS with my hubby splitting coverage. If it’s not the million well-child appointments in the first year then it’s the million bugs they’ll pick up at daycare. Now that one’s in school and one’s in daycare we usually have 5-7 sick days a year between the two of them.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        I am most likely going to be putting my toddler in daycare this fall, along with our new baby (who is due in July) after I return to work….and I’m starting to get nervous about all the illnesses! My daughter is pretty robust and rarely gets sick, and gets over it quickly when she does, but she’s been with family and friends this whole time.

        However with them in daycare the grandmothers are going to be more free to take care of them when sick so hopefully they will be willing to help out there (I know my MIL will, but my mom is, um, very anxious about germs). I’m just going to blow through all my PTO for my maternity leave because I want to be paid during that time.

    15. Anon-mama*

      So far 0 (I only work nights/weekends, so no time has to be taken off), but when I hopefully regain daytime work, it’s likely he may take on more days than I will, simply because he has 4 weeks vacation and 1 week of “absence with permission” (typically taken in a couple hour chunks to do things like wait for repairmen, but can be approved for whole days if the supervisor is nice and will help preserve vacation days/he’s running out). He cannot use his own sick time (a third bank) for anyone but himself. Plus, his work he can make up later in the week; I have shift work that can’t be brought home, and if I took off time, we couldn’t plan for very many vacations together, given I already have half the time he does.

      1. Future Analyst*

        That’s an intriguing PTO policy his work has! (And what I would give for 4 weeks of vacation.) Though the inability to use sick PTO for anyone but himself is different than anything I’ve come across.

    16. A Non E. Mouse*

      Halfsies, but loosey-goosey style.

      So it’s not a strict “I took today, you take tomorrow” (though that’s usually how it works); it’s usually “this week I cannot miss one minute of work and in fact will likely be late getting home each day” so the other parent takes any duties that week (sick, leave early for school event, etc.).

      We just take care to make sure it’s not impacting one of us more than the other.

  20. peachie*

    How concerned should I be about a background check that’s taking a long time? Mine began 3 weeks ago and was supposed to be done by this past Monday at the latest. I can’t think of anything “bad” they’d find, but I’m still nervous. I need to relocate to a few states away for this job, and it’s really stressing me out to have this last contingency hanging over my head as I try to arrange the logistics.

      1. peachie*

        I’m hoping that’s the case. I can’t think of anything that could be a problem and I certainly didn’t falsify any of the information on the background check forms.

      2. Fiennes*

        Sadly, in the age of identity theft, this isn’t remotely true. Maybe worth doing a credit check/google search to make sure no shenanigans are going on.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Have you lived in places that have been experiencing bad weather? If they are having to search records from municipalities where courts have been closed for a day or two, that could create a huge backlog.

    3. Chris V*

      First, a caveat: The nature and thoroughness of background checks vary by industry, so my remarks might not be applicable for your field. In general though, if you don’t have anything troublesome in your history, don’t worry! I know in the U.S., background checks can be delayed when agencies/organizations/state governments/universities/past employers don’t reply promptly to requests for information from the company conducting the background check.

      I know it’s hard to be kept in a holding pattern especially when you’re planning for a move, but try to be patient! If you have a firm offer that’s only contingent on passing a background check and if you’ve passed background checks in the past in your industry and you’re pretty confident that you’ll do so again (that is, you have no “strikes” against you), I’d suggest that you move forward with your planning.

      You could also enlist the help of your new employer by asking them for an update — I’m sure they’re excited to get you on board and are just as eager as you are to get the background check finished. Your new employer might be able to get details from the company conducting the check about any delays — for example, waiting for agency X to get back to them.

      Good luck, and congratulations on your new job!

      1. peachie*

        While I’m not 100% sure of everything they’re checking, it’s not a super intense background check (meaning, not government, not a field where they’re verifying a certification, etc.). I know they had a snag reaching a former employer last week (it’s a business with functionally one full-time employee, and I verified with HireRight (the background check company) that she provided the requested information later that day.

        I’ve passed every background check I’ve been subject to (housing, current job, etc.) but the new job is a slightly new industry. It’s not one that requires additional certifications or anything, though.

        Unfortunately, new job definitely does not have any more information than I do–they’re waiting on it to come back so they can do some setup/orientation things they already wanted to have done. I checked with HireRight yesterday and they said they could not share more information but they weren’t done and didn’t need anything more from me.

        I know it’s probably going to be fine, but I’m so anxious about signing a lease on a new place, moving a subletter on to my current lease, or even announcing that I’ll be moving in less than a month/seeking a subletter until I know for sure. It’s getting really down to the wire.

    4. Kate*

      Depending on where you’ve lived, 3 weeks is on the long side, but not crazy. A lot of counties don’t have their records digitized. A criminal records search literally means someone physically looking through records. Anything that could case a courthouse to close– weather, holidays, a shutdown– lengthens the timeline. If you’ve ever lived internationally (for more than a study abroad), that’ll really stretch out the timeline.

      If your background check includes a degree verification (many do), that could also be it, especially if you graduated 30+ years ago. Older records (usually 1980s and before) often aren’t digitized, so the registrar has to dig through paper records. If your college merged with another or if your specific program was eliminated, that can also make it more challenging to find the record.

      I hope it’s finished soon– I can only imagine how stressful it is to be waiting on this.

      1. peachie*

        I’m hoping the digitization thing or something similar is it. I haven’t lived internationally and I graduated about 5 years ago. Ugh.

        1. Your Weird Uncle*

          I’m sure you’re fine! I had to do one a few years ago when I moved back to the States from living abroad for about 6 years, and it took absolute ages. (In reality I think it was about a month, but it felt like four months!) I also had a smidge on my record which I was slightly worried about….nothing that I needed to worry about, as it turned out, but your mind tends to overinflate things when you’re worried about it.

    5. PR for Now*

      My fiance’s background check for his current job took a few weeks longer than expected. He followed up and it turned out that the 3rd party company doing the background check had completed it and forgot to let anyone know. It could just be a clerical mix-up, maybe follow up with your contact in the next week or so if you don’t hear back.

      1. peachie*

        Unfortunately, I know this isn’t the case (contacted HireRight yesterday). Just crossing my fingers really hard that there’s a delay elsewhere.

    6. Anna*

      Have you lived in a lot of places? My husband had to have a background check recently and it took FOREVER because apparently they check with every county you’ve lived in, which was 6 different places for him. And of course, some are slower than others.

      1. peachie*

        Not too many–lots of apartments but only 2 states (and they didn’t ask for past address/landlord information).

    7. nep*

      I’ve known background checks to take weeks.
      But — do you have anything to worry about? Or are you concerned about some kind of identity theft sort of thing? Because as Anita-ita says, if there’s nothing to worry about there’s nothing to worry about.

      1. peachie*

        There’s nothing I can think of to worry about. My credit is fine but not great and I’ve gotten a bunch of parking tickets (paid, it’s just something that happens to everyone all the time in my city), but that’s really it. I know that should make me feel better, but I’m just racking my brain for anything sordid in my past I’ve repressed into oblivion. (I don’t think I have, just, this is how my brain is dealing with my stress.)

        I don’t think I’ve had my identity stolen, so I hope it’s not that.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      The last time I ran a background check it was a fiasco. It took me months because of Many Reasons. Some of those reasons are professionally embarrassing to explain and they never got explained.

      Remember Alison’s advice about not having a job until we actually have a job. Keep looking around and seeing what other opportunities are out there.

      Did you set a time line for when you would be available? “I will start x number of weeks after acceptance to allow time for moving and giving notice at my current job.”

      1. peachie*

        Ugh, I really really hope this is not the case. I actually have a specific start date with training schedules, benefits, etc. already being set and coordinated. They gave me 6 weeks from the offer acceptance, which was very generous, but the clock is ticking down.

    9. KR*

      Mine took a month. My state doesn’t have their records centralized so when the employer requested a check the state office had to send out a request to every county so they could check if I had a record. It took forever. The worst part was that they kept saying, it will be available on x day and when that day would come they would say, oh wait we need to push it back a week, and so on. It’s excruciating but be patient – it will come.

      1. peachie*

        Oh boy, I really hope that’s not the case. I’m moving quite far away and have a TON of logistical things I can’t hold off on, and many of those are not the sort of things that can easily be reversed, like signing a new lease/putting down a deposit and transitioning from my current job. I am a nervous wreck.

    10. DietCokeHead*

      I have so much sympathy for you! My background check took a few weeks and it actually was to the point where I thought that the company was ghosting me. I have no idea what the hold up was, so I have no good advice but I just want to say hang in there! It is definitely stressful and anxiety causing.

  21. Discouraged Academic*

    I am a very junior faculty woman in my 40s with a PhD in a clinical research field. Academia has provided a lot of interesting opportunities for me, but I am daunted by trying to climb up the faculty ladder (it’s very difficult at my university- say, 20 years to full professor) and I am, frankly, not ambitious enough to work 80 hours a week for the next 20 years with very little progress to show for it. I also work on yearly contracts for soft money, so I always have to hustle and take assignments that are uninteresting and not likely to further my career. There aren’t many ways to either advance or be successful.

    All of that is to say- I think I want to jump out of academia to industry. All of a sudden I feel like I don’t have any skills and don’t know how to position myself for jobs outside of academia. I feel discouraged and overwhelmed. And old to be switching directions! And my mentors don’t have much help to give, except they agree this current road is a tough one.

    Do any of you have experience with this? What kinds of jobs are available and what have your experiences been? Potential pitfalls? Are you glad you left? Any general advice would be welcome- either from people with this kind of background, or those of you who hire/work with people like me. Also, any advice from those who have made a major career shift in (early) middle age?

    Thank you!

    1. NoName*

      Look at the Chronicle of Higher Ed forums – there’s a subforum specifically about making the transition out of academia! Probably lots of support and advice there.

    2. periwinkle*

      Also, join the Versatile Ph.D. website, which is all about making that transition. You are not alone!

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Seconding the Versatile PhD recommendation. I transitioned into applied work not long after finishing my PhD when I realized that the academic job market in my field was a) ridiculously competitive and b) I didn’t want to fight that hard to have to move to North Dakota (no offense, ND! You’re just too cold!) or wherever would take me as an assistant professor.

        My story is this: I did the adjunct game while working as a temp for a while at a fire department to pay my bills. The fire chief pretty quickly realized that he wasn’t using my skills at all (I was literally sorting papers into colored piles and doing data entry) and the department hired me full time as an analyst. That gave me enough “real world” job experience that 18 months later I got an applied job in my field (social science).

        I found the hardest thing about transitioning out of academia is that there is a (somewhat justified) stereotype of academics as having their heads in the clouds a bit and not focused on practical results. Things that bothered me as an academic you have to learn to let slide in business (e.g. perfectly conforming to research methodology best-practices–in applied work you have to get the work done, and sometimes that means you know your sample isn’t quite right or whatever, but you can still get insights from the data). Make sure you can pitch yourself as practical rather than overly theoretical and you’ll be fine.

        1. periwinkle*

          FYI, this is basically my dissertation topic – how academically-trained people adapt to practitioner realities and pressures.

          1. Discouraged Academic*

            Good luck on your dissertation. That’s a project I would love to read- very relevant to many of us!

            1. periwinkle*

              I’ll post in a weekend thread when it’s done and defended. It might be… a while. Phenomenology is tough to do (and spell).

              1. Discouraged Academic*

                I will be very interested! Phenomenology happens to be my area of specialty. Very best of luck to you!

        2. Discouraged Academic*

          Thanks so much for that perspective. Although I resist that stereotype of academia, I realize that it’s sometimes very true, e.g. that deadlines are often kind of suggestions, and the issues in methodology you mention. I appreciate the suggestion to pitch myself in terms of practical skills, rather than theoretical.

      2. Discouraged Academic*

        Thank you so much for those two resource recommendations. I’m going to visit both of those today!

    3. Overeducated*

      I know sooooo many people who’ve done this. (I have a PhD, but not in a clinical field.) So many. Most of the ones with clinical, lab, or field research areas either went into data science/tech research or environmental or cultural resource management. I also know a few people who went into biotech/pharmaceuticals, but mostly through the traditional post-PhD consulting route where they interviewed with recruiters on campus. This could still be something you could do, especially if you work in an applicable area, I just don’t know the process for mid-career transitions. Many of the resource management people went directly into jobs in the private and public sectors because their field work and research is directly and obviously applicable – this is the area I’m in, though the path from short term to permanent employment has been just as long as the postdoc to faculty route in my case. The data science/tech research people mostly worked on their own to improve their coding skills and did short boot camps, mainly for the networking/portfolio building/industry lingo aspect, or internships .

      Good luck! I think reinventing yourself mid-career must be really tough, but you can totally do this.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      Do you live in a hotbed or clinical research? If not, you may have to relocate to one. RTP, Boston, and California all come to mind.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Seattle area too – I see lots of jobs posted requiring PhD and clinical background at various hospitals, affiliated research centers, and biomed start-ups.

    5. SarahKay*

      Not advice, just encouragement – you *can* make that change and it may well take you into something you love. My mum was a teacher for 20 years – part-time/subbing for all ages when my sister and I were younger, full-time primary teaching once we were in our teens. At fifty she quit teaching and went back to college to learn accounting – which she absolutely loved! She stayed in accounting and book-keeping until she retired a few years back.
      Bonus – she sold me on double-entry book-keeping and how much I’d love it. So much so that aged 34 I went back to college myself (although evening classes rather than full-time) and also got my accounting qualification, and was lucky enough to be able to move into a finance role in my current company.
      So: you’re not too old (not by a long way!) and it could lead to a whole new thing you love. Go for it!

    6. Betsy*

      I can’t remember exactly where I found it, but I read about a recent study that found that PhD graduates who work outside academia are happier than those who stayed. I totally believe this too. I am thinking of slightly ‘downsizing’ to a lower level research position at the moment, because I already adjuncted for many years before getting my current position, and I don’t think I can do 80 hours a week for years in order to jump up a rung or two.

      1. Overeducated*

        I totally believe it as well. I got what I think was my last academic rejection yesterday (I applied for a few tenure track jobs as part of my broader job search last fall) and posted an article on Twitter about how that job market isn’t nearly so bad when you have other options…a couple friends who want to stay in/go back to academia responded telling me they were really sorry, and I was like “thanks, but not my point!”

    7. Discouraged Academic*

      Thank you, all of you who replied, for your suggestions and encouragement. Reading through your responses makes me much less discouraged, and more hopeful that I can be someone who is happier once I leave academia! Being a low-level struggling academic can be such an isolating experience, with so little structure. I’m grateful for guidance and for solidarity in knowing that I’m not alone in not wanting to give up my quality of life by decades of toil, moving to a place I don’t want to be, or adjuncting for the rest of my life. I will be visiting those sites you suggested and looking for some supportive community.

      It’s difficult to think of re-inventing myself in midlife. But not as difficult as contemplating staying stuck for the REST of my life in a place that won’t ever allow me to succeed. That perspective is one of the best parts of AAM and its commenters!

      Thanks, again.

  22. Clever Anonymous Name*

    I’m looking for wording/suggestions of questions to ask my manager who has resigned.

    My manager has resigned and will be leaving next week. I’d asked them if we could meet before they leave so I could get feedback on my work over the past year. My performance review had been scheduled for a few weeks from now, so it seemed an opportunity to hear from them. I’m also aware that I will be able to use them as a reference when I’m job-searching, so I want to leave on good terms. (We’ve had a rocky relationship that has only recently begun to settle.)

    When I’d asked for the meeting, we’d discussed that it would be an informal talk – an opportunity to receive verbal feedback, suggestions or recommendations for the future, etc. Now they’re asking for specific questions/topics to discuss. I’m getting stuck on actual questions without making the conversation seem more formal than I’d expected.

    I was hoping for a general conversation with feedback on my performance this year (what I’ve done well; where I could improve; what skills I could build to better support the department) as well as suggestions for career development.

    I’m also curious about their suggestions as to how to move my career forward. I feel like I’ve stalled: there’s little room for advancement here, but I’m not getting the experience needed to move to a higher position at another organisation. At times it feels like I’ll be stuck in this role until I retire (many decades from now). :/

    Any thoughts/suggestions on wording I could use?

    1. Eye of Sauron*

      I would keep it general. In fact you stated it beautifully right here:

      “I was hoping for a general conversation with feedback on my performance this year (what I’ve done well; where I could improve; what skills I could build to better support the department) as well as suggestions for career development.”

      You could add something to the effect that you understand this won’t be part of any official performance appraisal and you would treat the feedback given as informative for you only. (this may help them to understand you don’t plan to rebut your official appraisal with any of the feedback you receive from the outgoing manager.

      1. Clever Anonymous Name*

        Thanks Eye of Sauron. I appreciate this.

        I’d written that nearly word for word in the meeting invite (including that I wasn’t looking for a formal review), but my manager is now asking for more specific questions. That’s why I’m stumped.

        1. Eye of Sauron*

          Hmm… if that statement prompted the question I’m not sure what they are looking for.

          Maybe mention that you aren’t looking for performance to goals might help to. If I were your manager I would want to know if you were anticipating me preparing anything or doing an evaluation on specific performance, if that makes sense. You might also use the terms strengths and weaknesses and their opinion on how to address the weaknesses and capitalize on the strengths. This might help steer it way from sounding like a goal measuring session.

        2. Naptime Enthusiast*

          Are there questions that you’ve been holding back from asking in the past? If so, this sounds like a really good time to ask them. If you can’t think of any, here’s a few that might work:
          – Have I plateau’d in this department?
          – What do you think would hold me back from advancing in the near future?
          – What should I be doing to get X experience?
          – What are my peers doing right that I am not?
          – What am I currently doing better than my peers?
          – Are thing being said about my skill set/performance that would be helpful for me to know? (this depends on your relationship with your manager and how candid they are willing to be)

          1. Clever Anonymous Name*

            These are great. Thanks, Naptime Enthusiast! And thanks for the follow-up, Eye of Sauron. Most appreciated!

  23. Marian the Non-Librarian*

    I have a librarian/library question. I started out as a shelver at a public library, earned my MSLIS. Then the economy crashed, so librarian jobs were difficult to find. I ended up being a library technical assistant at a non-profit. It was a great company, but only part-time, so I moved on. I then went into Records Management and now work in the pharmaceutical industry.

    I really am hoping to utilize my MSLIS and work in a library as a librarian, but it doesn’t seem possible. Public libraries say that I have no *recent* library experience and question why I want to work in public libraries; academic libraries don’t want me because I have no academia experience or I need another master’s degree. Otherwise for certain positions I’m overqualified because I have an MSLIS; other places I don’t have enough experience.

    Should I give up hope at ever finding a librarian position?

    1. Teapot librarian*

      Don’t give up! I would suggest trying to get a job in a special library–corporate or medical. It may not be your long-term goal, but it will get your foot in the library door which will hopefully then make it easier to transition into public or academic. (The rationale for this suggestion is based on the hiring I have done in a very small information center: public libraries and academic libraries tend to have more standard expectations when hiring, I suspect, and smaller institutions like many special libraries are going to need you to be a jack of all trades, as opposed to “we’re looking for a teen librarian with 3 years of experience leading engaging programs that teenagers actually want to come to” or “we’re looking for a cataloger with experience in the physical sciences.”)

      1. Nynaeve*

        Yes to medical libraries! (These might be in a hospital, consumer health center, or an academic library attached to a medical school.) Your work in the pharmaceutical industry would be a plus. You can network through your local chapter of the Medical Library Association (the main MLA fees are expensive, but you can usually join just the regional chapter for much cheaper).

        Be prepared to talk up transferable skills from your current job and plausibly explain how you would get up to date on the skills you haven’t used as recently (such as reference skills, interlibrary loan, literature searching, etc.). Good luck!

    2. MagsM*

      It might help if you look for an on call librarian position for a start, which will let you get relevant experience and then look for full time?

    3. AlmondJoy*

      I had what I thought was a decent amount of experience prior to and during grad school working in libraries. Unfortunately, after I finished school I never was able to get a job in an actual library. In the meantime I had been applying and occasionally interviewing for jobs, but it’s been over 8 years since I graduated. I have pretty much given up hope of ever working in a library because I don’t have any “real” experience. From a hiring managers point of view I can see that they would obviously prefer someone with recent experience, but it definitely sucks. Maybe relocating to a different area where the job market is different would lead to different (better?) results. I have thought about volunteering at public library, but so far I haven’t had time. My current job uses some library skills, but it doesn’t require a degree and isn’t classified as anything library or information-related. I hope you can find something that works for you. I know the struggle is real, and every semester more people are graduating and flooding the market.

      1. JeanB in NC*

        I’m the same – I got my MLS in 2002, have worked less than 1 year as a professional librarian most recently in 2009. I don’t think I’ll ever get a librarian position, unless it’s after I’m semi-retired and find a part-time position in a small library. I’m looking for technical services positions also (9 months as a public librarian was enough to tell me it’s not for me) and they really want someone with experience. It’s a little frustrating, especially since ALL of my student loan debt comes from that master’s. Complete waste of money.

    4. Angela B.*

      It sucks but I think records management is far enough removed from librarianship that it would be an absolute uphill slog to get back to where you want to be. I’m a former archivist/currently records manager and I would never apply for a librarian job because I just don’t have the knowledge or qualifications for it. This kind of goes double for the pharmaceutical piece; I don’t know about the library side, but on the archives side, there’s a real cultural divide between corporate archivists/records managers and everyone else in the profession, especially on the part of academic archivists. It’s ridiculous and completely bogus but it does exist, unfortunately. One thing you could do, although this would be playing the long game, would be try and move into government records management at a state archives, and then sort of sidle your way into the library end from there. I was a government records archivist before I made the records management jump and at least at my agency, it was fairly common for people to move around the different units within the agency. Alternately, there have to be corporate libraries, you might be able to get in from that angle, especially since you have experience working in a corporate environment.

    5. perpetuallytired*

      No, don’t give up hope.

      It depends on what kind of librarian position you’re looking for. Try to find jobs that have the same skillset without the title; if you’re lookinng to be a reference librarian, try to find jobs that utilize those skills. That canbe one way of bulking up your work history. But if it’s something that you want to pursue now, then apply the skills you’re using now to the job position. So depending on what you do for the pharma industry…. Let’s say taht you have to research xxxx a lot, so that could be reflective of your reference skills. For records management, I cannot see how that would be held against you in an academic library. In fact, with your pharmaceutical background, you could definitely apply to a hard-sciences/bio-library at one fo the larger univerisities.

    6. SparklingStars*

      Any chance you can do an internship or volunteer at a library for a few hours a week? I’m a public librarian, and my library will often allow aspiring librarians to work as interns (especially our local history department ; they are always desperate for help from skilled library folks). That would give you some recent experience to add to your resume.

    7. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      Marian, when you mentioned academic and public libraries, were your searches limited to county libraries or university libraries? If so, you may want to look for being a librarian for a state agency.

      A lot of the larger state agencies in California have their own librarians and staff, especially if the agency has a lot of lawyers because they will need their own law library in-house. At my agency we have a head librarian (who has her MSLIS) along with about 4-5 assistant librarians. We have about 80 lawyers in my agency. Our old librarian went to work for another state agency.

      Also, our State Archives is an option. Their archivists and librarians are exceptionally helpful when I go over and you get to geek out on all the historical records they have.

    8. Anon librarian*

      I agree with trying to find an on-call or substitute job. You should be able to keep your FT gig and work nights and weekends subbing in public libraries. Still might take a while though to transition.

    9. bb-great*

      Are you geographically mobile? Of my classmates from library school, the only ones who have full-time employment in the field are those who moved to take a job. The others are either out of the field altogether or have multiple part time positions. If you can get one part time job in a library and swing it somehow, with or without a second job, that could be an inroads as well. Or as other people are suggesting, an on-call type of position.

      None of these options are great, but unfortunately you have to suffer to break into this field.

      I still think it’s worth keeping an eye out, as you never know when a job that suits your particular skillset will pop up. There may very well be a position where you background is an asset and not a liability.

    10. KayEss*

      My husband got a public library job fairly fresh out of his MSLIS by aggressively volunteering at that library, like teaching-several-basic-computer-skills-course-for-free levels of volunteering. I supported us close to 100% during that time, which was at least months if not over a year, and I still support our household 70-80% because seven(!) years later he’s still only part-time (though admittedly part of that is because he doesn’t actually want to be in public library administration). They did finally give him a collection to manage last year, though.

      1. KayEss*

        He wants me to add that a lot of public libraries, when hiring for entry level positions, are looking for customer service experience–which does not necessarily mean retail, but anything you can spin into “able to be consistently positive and professional in a public-facing role” can help you.

        Also that full-time positions are very rare, because the people filling them tend to be very static. IIRC most of his colleagues work part-time positions like his in multiple area libraries to make up a full-time week.

    11. amanda_cake*

      I am beginning to feel your pain.
      I will finish my MLIS in May. I’m super excited and keep applying for jobs, but haven’t had any luck yet because I lack experience. I hope to volunteer in a library after graduation. My current job is very travel heavy, so I don’t really have the time to volunteer while still in school. I’m hoping to get in a good routine of volunteerism this summer at the public library, which will hopefully help me.

      I’m considering a second masters degree in my current field (I work in higher education) but I doubt that would get me into a library.

    12. I'mma be that guy/gal*

      I’m going to buck the trend here. No, you don’t have to give up on a library job — but ask yourself, do you want to work in a library, or do you want to make a living wage? Because if if it’s the latter, you probably should give up. Librarianship is a flooded industry with piss-poor advocacy from its own professional organization, the ALA, which seems to think “Libraries are MORE IMPORTANT than money!!11” is a completely acceptable professional response to Forbes pointing out that librarian salaries are a wretched return on the required master’s degree. Everyone knows this but no one is willing to acknowledge it. The fact that someone encouraging you in this thread still hasn’t got a full-time position after seven years should tell you everything you need to know.

      I know this sounds harsh. Please understand it’s not you, it’s the field. You could be the best librarian in the world, but the field is broken. If you truly want to be a professional librarian, you need to accept that that is pretty much the only priority you’re allowed to have. Forget money, work-life balance, being near your loved ones.

      General to anyone reading this: If you’re seriously considering library school without having any work experience in a library, you are a fool. If you’re seriously considering library school without having any work experience in a library because you just love to read, you are a fool who frankly deserves to be separated from their money by one of the many library schools that takes in more students than they can ever actually hope to place.

      1. SC Anonibrarian*

        I hate to add to the negative nancy choir but I DO have a full time librarian position; that I got because I knew the right people and have been working in libraries as a part time or full time para since I was still IN HIGH SCHOOL (yes, even through college). Even with that, it took three years after I completed my MLIS degree (which I got while working full time in yet another library) to actually be declared as a professional and paid somewhat less shittily.

        I’m in my mid thirties and I have reached the top of my income bracket unless I move into higher level administrative positions, which I would hate. Unless you really really truly love the work and can be sustained by passion, a spouse, or a second job, please consider something else. In about 20 years all the glut will be retiring out and things may loosen up then, but that’s not going to help any of you poor inexperienced degree-holders actually get a job now.

        If you ARE desperate, then your best way in is to find a part-time para position in a large system, volunteer relentlessly in as many library areas and programs as you can, get another part-time job as a shift lead or manager at a retail place or a restaurant (for the required supervisory experience) and just resign yourself to the 5-to-10 year slog of getting internally promoted up the ranks as the higher-ups retire or shift around. I’m so sorry our field is shit right now.

  24. Who the eff is Hank?*

    In 2014 I was a freelancer while looking for a full time job. Through my network I was connected with the owner and CEO of a small company who needed a project done that was right up my ally. We drafted up a contract with my pay and the scope of work and set off. The project took about three months and even though the scope ended up changing and the work was more involved than originally planned, I finished it on time and according to the CEO’s desires. After the project was turned in and the CEO confirmed it was good and done, I sent in my invoice. And I never heard back.

    I tried emailing and calling multiple times over the course of the next month. I also stopped by the office in the hopes of getting on the CEO’s calendar, but the receptionist told me he was traveling for work for the next month. I asked if I could speak to someone in payroll and was told all contractors had to go through the CEO. I tried pinging the CEO about once a month for the next couple months but finally gave up once I found a full time job.

    Fast forward to last night. I got an email saying a new person asked to connect with me on LinkedIn and lo and behold, it’s the CEO who ghosted me 4 years ago! He didn’t send me a message or make any mention of the past work I did for him. I got married in 2016 and changed my name so I get the feeling that he may not realize I’m the same person.

    My husband said I should send him a LinkedIn message with an invoice attached. The petty side of me kinda wants to but I wonder if it’s worth pursuing so many years later.

    1. bluelyon*

      I’m petty so I would send the invoice
      More realistically it’d be better to ignore the request to connect.

    2. Grad Student*

      I know nothing, but I would be rooting for you so hard if you do send the invoice. Sure, it’s been years, but it’s also so completely unacceptable to simply not pay you for your work!

      1. Grad Student*

        He might not want anything in particular–LinkedIn can get pushy about asking you to invite all your contacts (in your email or whatever) to connect with you, so you can send invites without even reading the name of every person you’re inviting.

    4. MLB*

      I’m more curious about why you didn’t contact a lawyer to force him to pay you 4 years ago, especially since you had a contract. I treat LinkedIn like FB – if I don’t know you personally or professionally, I don’t connect.

      1. Who the eff is Hank?*

        That year was a pretty crazy one for me (job searching, housing displacement, losing a close family member) so I had a lot going on and honestly didn’t focus my efforts on getting paid after that first month. And once I landed a full time job I was very wrapped up in that, so it fell by the wayside. His LinkedIn request actually jogged my memory, I hadn’t thought about that situation in awhile.

        1. MLB*

          Ok makes sense. Back when I was in my 20s, I broke up with a boyfriend after a year, who owed me about $3K when we split. We agreed on a pay back plan which he only paid for one month and then nothing. So I took him to court and won, then when he didn’t pay me within the 30 days he was given, had his wages garnished and put a lien on his house until it was all paid back. So I don’t mess around when people owe me money LOL

      2. Natalie*

        I have a lot of small businesses in my family and for what it’s worth, this is often not worth it. The court system will give you a judgment but they won’t collect the money for you, so it’s on you to file liens, hire debt collectors, etc. It’s intensely aggravating to let people get away with it, but sometimes that really is the best choice.

    5. Radius20*

      I think it would be insane NOT to send the invoice. I also think you should have pursued it in small claims court.

    6. AnotherJill*

      I would send it with a short note explaining the situation. It doesn’t seem like you have anything to lose.

    8. As Close As Breakfast*

      I would definitely send the invoice! I probably wouldn’t do any sort of follow-up, I would send a short message with the invoice attached and figure that I would never hear from him again. It would be completely a result of my petty side with no actual expectation that I would get paid. I mean, what’s the worst that could happen? You offend him and he ruins your career? Seems unlikely, right? He’s the one that looks bad here. Best thing that could happen? You get paid. Most likely thing that will happen? You’ll never hear from him (and maybe he will have suffered a few moments of personal embarrassment!) So yeah, it might be petty but I for one would totally do it.

      If you do go for it, report back!! :)

      1. K.*

        This. I would accept the invitation and submit the invoice without further comment. “Please find attached the invoice for Project X, completed on [date from 4 years ago].” Best case, you get your money; worst case, you don’t and you’re no worse off than you are now! And it should cause him some embarrassment, which might be enough for me (although … probably not, I would REALLY want my money).

    9. Betty (the other Betty)*

      If you do send an invoice, find out the email address for Accounts Payable (not Payroll) and CC them if at all possible.

      I’d add a note like, “I was reviewing my bookkeeping for tax time, and realized that this invoice from 2014 has not been paid.”

  25. Bostonian*

    Does anyone have any tips for setting up your workspace in a way that discourages people from taking over your space after hours?

    I work in a traditional 9-5 M-F office with assigned cubes. I just realized that someone (possibly overnight cleaning crew? I don’t know who else would be here at night) has been regularly using my desk.

    It started out with me coming in and noticing my monitors were slightly off their usual spot and things on my desk being slightly rearranged. Once my keyboard stand was off its track, which was a pain because it took a while to figure out how to get it back to the right ergonomic position. But I didn’t think anything of it at first… and then I came in this morning. My chair was covered in crumbs, both my monitors were out of position, my laptop dock was in a weird place, and the phone had been pulled up to the edge of the desk, indicating that someone had been using my phone.

    I really wouldn’t mind someone just using my chair during the night, but I do mind coming in to a mess and having my ergonomically-arranged equipment being out of alignment. So… what do other people do? Put something heavy on my chair? Create other physical barriers (examples)? Other suggestions? I definitely do not want to go the route of a note.

      1. Why Oh Why Does this keep happening?*

        Oops – this got delayed and I thought it was forbidden to post a link so I re-posted.

        1. Grad Student*

          I think (could be wrong) that it’s just that comments with links go through moderation before appearing.

    3. cookie?*

      If the monitors were just slightly off, I’d say the cleaning crew maybe tweaked them while cleaning. But it sounds like you have a definite “Goldilocks” situation here. You could ask your manager/the office manager if someone is authorized to use the workspaces after hours. I would find it odd that the cleaning crew would be allowed to use the company’s equipment in this way (especially if they’re leaving it dirtier). They could be majorly violating their contract. If the office manager says “oh yea, so and so comes in” then that is a different story.

    4. LCL*

      Since you want to go physical solution, get some kind of cable lock (think of something for locking up a bike) and lock the chair to the desk in such a way it can’t be pulled out. Why don’t you want to leave a polite note?

      1. Bostonian*

        I feel like even the most nicely-written note will still come across as passive aggressive. Thanks for the cable lock idea.

        1. Casuan*

          Bostonian, a cable lock would be even more passive-aggressive. Really just aggressive. A reasonable person wouldn’t mind a nicely-written note. The interloper might not realise how much inconvenience they’re causing you. Of course, they might not care, either.
          Do you not want them to use your area at all or do you just not want them to move things around & your space a mess?
          Can you password protect your computer? I’d say leave a note & if that doesn’t work then talk with whomever manages the shift in question.
          Sorry you need to deal with this; it would drive me bonkers!

    5. BadPlanning*

      If it’s the cleaning crew, leaving your desk messy seems ironic.

      I would alert your manager. Either it’s someone from the cleaning crew and they probably need to be redirected to a breakroom or common area (using someone’s cube to have their food break doesn’t seem like the best plan). Or it’s someone working weird hours — but maybe they shouldn’t be (someone moonlighting for another job) or they should be told, “Hey, we need to to use this specific desk, not Bostonian’s desk.”

      1. WonderingHowIGotHere*

        If it’s the cleaning crew, leaving your desk messy seems ironic.

        Not ironic, but par for the course, especially when cleaning staff are low paid and don’t generally care.

        One of only ways I can tell my desk has been “cleaned” is when my phone has been shoved onto the adjacent desk, my keyboard is completely off kilter, my framed wedding photo no longer faces outwards, and there’s a slight…stickiness to the desk surface. I usually end up using my own antibac wipes to clean up their “cleaning”.

        OP it might also be worth leaving a note on your desk requesting that it not be cleaned, and bring your own wipes in for general hygiene.

        1. empg*

          I think saying that cleaning staff ” don’t generally care” is an unfair generalization. I think lots of cleaning staff I’ve come across are really wonderful people who definitely do care.

          1. WonderingHowIGotHere*

            I appreciate that, and should probably caveat that my sweeping generalisation is based entirely on my own experience (and personal observations through staying late at the office) of over 90% of cleaning staff who do not care, including the man who thought it was entirely appropriate to rearrange any novelty ornaments in karma sutra style poses, and another who used the same cloth for the desks as for the bathrooms. A third who didn’t change the cleaning bucket from start to finish, so if your desk was at the end of the route, you were getting all the muck from all previous desks.

    6. MLB*

      I would take pictures and go to your manager. If you don’t share space with others this is NOT okay. Especially if you have your chair/monitors/etc. set up in a way that’s comfortable for you. It takes me FOREVER to get my chair just right when I get a new one.

    7. UtOh!*

      You should speak to your facilities manager to designate an area for the cleaning people so they aren’t using any’s desk for their breaks. I have noticed the same in my office, and the kicker is that my garbage can was left full! As you have a cubicle, it would be hard to put any barriers in the way, it’s better that a conversation is had and an alternate area for them to take their breaks is designated. Do you have a lock on the drawers of your desk? To discourage using the phone, you can lock it up every night.

      1. Natalie*

        Definitely, I think the first step should be asking for it to stop. If you rent and don’t employ the cleaners directly, let your landlord/property manager know.

    8. NaoNao*

      Maybe one of those old fashioned plastic computer “covers”. It drapes over your computer so they would have to remove it to use it.

      It seems like maybe they’re moving it to clean, if your station is password protected (if not, that would be step one!). If this is the case, could you proactively move items yourself every night, and that way you’ll know the position and can easily move them back?

      My one colleague was having food and drink items taken (like, snack stash, sodas stolen) so she put up a note “You’re on hidden camera” and she hasn’t had an issue since.

      Perhaps one of those “snowball” or “spider” web cameras attached to your computer and phone in a prominent location? Doesn’t have to work, just has to get people to think twice!

      1. Bostonian*

        I definitely like the idea about covers for monitors, keyboard, etc. to create more of a barrier (and keep things clean/less dusty, of course). I don’t have to worry about anyone actually using my laptop at the docking station, though, because it gets locked up or taken with me every night.

    9. KR*

      How about a piece of paper taped to your desk/chair in large capital letters that says PLEASE STOP USING MY DESK. Also, I would loop your office/facilities manager in because they aren’t doing their job if they are leaving it messy.

      1. Windchime*

        Yes, this. I used to keep a case of diet Coke under my desk and knew how long it should last, but I kept coming up short so I started taking note. They were disappearing at night so I was pretty sure it was the cleaner. I left a note: “Please stop taking my pop. It isn’t yours.”

        The next day, she told one of my co-workers that she had had low blood sugar and that’s why she was stealing my pop. Nice story, but there is no sugar in diet Coke. She stopped taking it after I left the note.

    10. a-no*

      I work the reception desk which people seem to take as a free for all. I started leaving my stuff EVERYWHERE. I hide my good pens and such but I leave things where I finished all over the desk (and clean the actual desk myself, as our ‘cleaner’ doesn’t actually clean but is married to our accountant so that’s a whole other barrel of monkeys)
      Since I started doing that, I have not shown up to have garbage all over my desk (irritating enough, on the part of my desk with the garbage underneath), no sticky hand prints and no crumbs. I think it’s become ‘too obvious’ that they’d used my desk and so they stopped.
      Also talk to your manager – even if she says Jack moonlights and uses your desk, it gives you the opportunity to ask that he not eat at the desk or if he would please remember that he shares your desk.

      1. Bostonian*

        hahahaha thanks for your story. My cubicle is the first one when you walk into one corner of the floor, so it is a prime location. However, there are plenty of desks on my floor that are completely empty and uninhabited (and have chairs!), so that’s why I want to go the physical barrier route (which sounds like it worked for you!)- and not be the path of least resistance.

        1. a-no*

          yeah, just leave piles of paper/files everywhere on your desk. if you have some extra files that move around put them on your chair (I put anything I needed to prioritize the next day on it, in case I needed to justify why I left things on my chair). I’m pretty sure they all think I’m the most organized dis-organized human on the planet but it worked. Plus, it sets up the opportunity to play the “can you ask who ever uses my desk at night to please stop re-arranging? I leave it a specific way so I know where I left off plus what I need to get to next”
          My last straw was when who ever was using my desk drank out of my water bottle. I don’t wear lipstick (I’m anaphylactic allergic to most of it) and I do not use any non-mint scented lip products so it wasn’t me that left lipstick on the rim. I shamelessly leave a big ol’ mess every day. I have a drawer of useless papers/folders I use when I don’t have work to leave out.

          1. Rainy*

            I made this face when I read the line about someone drinking out of your water bottle: O.o Like, who DOES that?!

    11. ToodieCat*

      I don’t know what your office setup is like, but I bet if you moved your chair into, say, another office (so no chair was available at your desk), that might do the trick.

      1. essEss*

        I was thinking to leave books and other items in your chair so that it’s harder for them to just plop down there.
        Also, tape your phone receiver down a few times (keep a pair of scissors with you to cut the tape in the morning). You should hopefully only have to do it a couple times to discourage the squatters and get them to move on to another desk.

          1. ronda*

            how about just unplugging it and locking it up with computer? If the phone is the attraction that would do the trick. (maybe check the call log to see if that is the attraction?)
            If something else is the attraction….. then something else.

  26. Mary (in PA)*

    Hello hive mind: I have a question about phone reimbursement. Our company is looking at putting together a policy for cell phone reimbursement, but the issue we’re having is that there doesn’t seem to be a single applicable standard for all our employees. We have two offices in different states, plus remote employees in two more states. Our base in PA doesn’t have or offer phone service (it’s a hipster co-working space), while our base in MD has standard phone lines. At the same time, a lot of employees prefer to work from home on occasion, or from the road if they’re traveling, while our fully remote employees are in their own autonomous locations.

    We want to institute something that’s fair and reasonable for everyone—from those who use their cell phones for the occasional business call to those whose cell phone is the only business phone they have and who are participating in or conducting multiple conference calls each week. Do you have a cell-phone reimbursement policy at your office, and if so, what does it look like?

    1. hiptobesquared*

      We have a flat rate, not matter what. If you use a cell phone for work, the company either provides it or we reimburse. Done.

    2. LCL*

      We don’t have a cell phone reimbursement policy. If we need a cell phone we are issued one. The only downside is per institutional policy we have to have an eight digit password if it’s a smart phone, and it can’t be the obvious sequential password.

    3. Can't Sit Still*

      Our sales staff is provided cell phones by the company, while everyone else gets a $75/month reimbursement for their cell phone bill, plus the company offers a 21% discount if we switch to their cell phone provider. Most companies I’ve worked for have a similar set up, with the actual reimbursement amount varying from $50 – $250/month.

    4. Shortie*

      We provide a generous flat monthly rate (so no submitting proof or receipts) to employees who are required to be on call. They either profit or lose depending on their own choice of what plan to get.

      We do not provide anything to employees whose cell phone is the only business phone they have because we offer VOIP phones. If they choose not to use the VOIP phone, well, then that’s their choice.

    5. Annie Moose*

      We have the option of either my company paying for a work phone for us, or they will reimburse us $70/month to use our personal cellphone. Almost everyone takes the reimbursement option, because we all have cellphones anyway. We have no desk phones in the office. (Well, the receptionist might have one.)

      This is available to everyone, regardless of their role/position.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Forgot to mention–no receipts necessary for the $70 reimbursement. We just have to submit it with our other expenses (which is all done electronically).

  27. how would you handle this?*

    A little long….. Ok I’m actually asking this for a friend who fearful that this post would get back to her employer. My friend, Jane, is getting back to work after taking time off for an extended maternity leave. She took a long term temp assignment. The company she is working for will be closing down in the next two years. As employees leave, they are being replaced with long term temps, like Jane.

    One of Jane’s coworkers, who wears way too many hats to begin with, was a bit overwhelmed with some new projects. Jane offered to take over some of them and the Coworker would be available to answer questions.

    Recently someone in upper management left and was replaced with a long term temp, Jarod. Jarod has a flexable schedule -in the office 3 days a week and works remotely 2 days (not sure if that is an important factor in this situation). Jarod has a lot of excellent experience in a majority (90%) of the upper management job requirements. However the remaining 10% of common industry tasks, Jarod’s experience doesn’t extend beyond a textbook definition knowledge. While it’s understandable that no one will have 100% knowledge of a job, there are rumors that Jarod fibbed a bit claiming to know this material. Based on how Jarod acts, Jane and Coworker are assuming that in the past Jarod delegated these tasks.

    This project that Jane took over from Coworker is a common industry task. Jane is getting a bit uncomfortable with Jarod – Jarod is asking her for her training notes; Jarod standing over her while she works on project; Jarod wants to sit in on training sessions to make sure that Jane is “understanding” it; Jarod has not been a great resource of help . While Jane is the ultimate team player, she gets the feeling that Jarod is trying to learn with Jane (totally acceptable) and take credit for the work since he “oversees Jane’s work”. From what I’ve been told it seems like Jarod is riding her coattails. Unfortunately these tasks aren’t something that can be watermarked. With Jane being a temp she doesn’t want to be petty going to HR/ someone higher up. Is there something Jane can do to protect herself? Or is Jane making a big deal out of something that isn’t?

    1. JustaCPA*

      Let me see if I have this right.

      Jarod is her manager and has delegated some work to Jane which he is then micromanaging. Jane feels he is micormanaging because he doesnt actually know how to do the work and is trying to learn? None of them are going to be there in two years?

      Let it goooooo, let it goooo….

  28. OperaArt*

    Business travel and dietary restrictions…
    I recently had to start an extremely restricted diet for medical reasons. I don’t travel often for my job, but I’m thinking ahead.
    How do those of you with dietary restrictions deal with business travel? Find places to stay that have kitchens? Make sure to have a car so you can shop for groceries? Carry food for the days of actual travel? How do you deal with event meals?

    1. Michael Mouse*

      I had a coworker who had dietary restrictions and we traveled together a lot. She would always request a minifridge in her room (almost all business type hotels offer this as an option even if it’s not included with the room), and would bring some prepared food and snacks that she knew would work for her. She also would usually research if there was a grocery store near the hotel, so she would know if that was an option or if she should bring more food. If a car rental wasn’t feasible, I think she sometimes would take a cab to the grocery store if necessary. Event meals – it’s great if they can accommodate you, but if that’s not possible, I’ve definitely seen my coworker just bring her own food and eat it at the table with everyone else.

    2. LKW*

      I have a friend that travels with nutrition bars because she’s a super picky eater. She’ll travel for months at a time (she’s retired) with one carry on bag filled with nutrition bars. She’ll buy new clothing while traveling and bring some with and leave some clothes behind. These are her priorities. I would not travel with her.

    3. cactus lady*

      I always check out restaurants in the area ahead of time to see what looks best for my dietary restrictions so that I have options in mind for eating out (which inevitably happens with colleagues/stakeholders at some point, then I can just say “I’ve heard restaurant X is great, we should check that out”). I also carry my own snacks, but I haven’t requested a kitchen before.

    4. Ambpersand*

      When I travel, I always pack snacks and breakfast items that I can eat. Nuts, granola/protein bars, pre-cooked bacon, some small apples or fruit leather, etc. It ensures I always have something as backup just in case. Then I do research on area restaurants to scope out the menu to see what will/wont work for my needs. It takes some planning but its easier than going grocery shopping during a business trip.

    5. NoodleMara*

      I bring food with me. Mostly it’s snacks because I’m usually never travelling long enough for it to be days and days. Granola, fruit, nuts are all excellent. I also sometimes bring a cooler along with some prepared meals for the first few meals as long as there is a microwave available. I almost always skip event meals unless I think the cheese platter and things are untouched by the crackers. Granted my main issue is gluten so it’s become much easier to survive. It also takes a long time to get used to eating differently and experimenting with what works and doesnt. It might be worth doing “pretend” travel where you have restrictions on how you can prepare things. That might help with figuring out how long you can eat one thing and still feel okay, etc

    6. Rovannen*

      I bring my own safe food, usually protein powder with a good shaker/water bottle. For event dinners, I pretty much fake it; I eat what I can and move around the rest.

    7. Rainy*

      I usually take a box of Kind bars with me, and then explore when I get there. (I have a long list of food allergies.) I have a really good handle on my allergies so I can generally find something to eat at restaurants, and I also check out whatever is the closest grocery and go the first day to buy a selection of cold things that will make good cold dinners/lunches to keep in my minifridge. I find that catered meals at large conferences are way more likely to have the kind of variety that guarantees I can eat something than catered meals for 50 people or less, which basically maybe one in three times have anything I can eat. (My favourite are the meals where even the fruit is mixed cut fruit full of melons or bananas, so I can’t even snack on grapes or something.)

      It gets a lot easier when you’re used to whatever your dietary limitations are than it is in the beginning, though, so by the time you’re traveling it might not be as intimidating as it seems right now.

    8. DrWombat*

      I have celiac, and especially with the rise of gluten-free food as a fad, even places with gluten-free menus may not be safe for celiacs. Hotels are almost always unsafe, ditto event meals (though I do call ahead just in case, sometimes the gluten-free meal is literally a plate of plain lettuce/chicken burnt so badly it’s mostly charcoal, etc, so even if there is a ‘safe’ meal it might not be enough to last you very long).

      I call the hotel ahead of time and request a minifridge in the room and make it clear it’s for medical reasons so they should not be charging me extra (I’m very firm about it so they usually don’t). If there’s a grocery store nearby I will get enough yogurt to last me the week for breakfast, and then eat some combo of jerky/granola bars for most meals. If it’s a conference and we’re on our own for dinner, I research close by, affordable restaurants that are safe for me and do that. Otherwise I drink soda/lemonade so I have something in my stomach during an event and I sneak a granola bar if I can.

      Airports are similarly difficult so I usually pack food in my purse – daifuku mochi are my current go-to because nonperishable, protein + starch, get through TSA easily (though I have gotten some curious questions) and there’s a wide variety of flavors. Basically I just plan as if there’s not going to be any safe food for me and be pleasantly surprised if there is.

      Best of luck!

  29. Applesauced*

    I asked this last week, but was late to the thread and it got buried
    How did you find your mentor?
    Is it someone at work, or just in your industry?
    If it’s someone at work, is it someone you work with day-to-day, or more peripherally?

    1. Buffy*

      There is a women’s mentoring program at my University and I applied there and got assigned a mentor.

    2. Alex*

      This was several years ago, but I was a member of a professional organization that had a mentoring program. I was matched up with someone in a different city and we had regular bi-weekly phone calls and email exchanges. It was nice to have someone with more knowledge and experience to talk to, but also someone who didn’t know me personally or know anyone at my work. I found it extremely helpful.

    3. bweaver*

      I identified someone I respect and admire professionally in our company – totally different department, some overlap but rare – but also with a position/title I aspire to. During a slower season I asked her if we could have lunch and we’ve been keeping it up on a quarterly(ish) basis. I’ve found that I, the mentee, have to make the relationship a priority as most potential mentors are incredibly willing but also incredibly busy.

    4. kmb*

      I met someone I really admire professionally and like how she does things while I was a vounteer at my current employer, then she hired me at the organization and was my boss, left for a year, and came back as my grandboss. She has since left my organization, but I consider her a mentor, and try to set up coffee with her and things. She is a great both professional role-model and like, being-a-human role model for me.

      I worked closely with her as a volunteer, and then very closely when I was her direct-report, and not closely at all (but obviously her work impacted my work) when she was my grandboss.

    5. Thisisusfan*

      I look forward who is doing well in my industry it a parallel one and reach out and ask to meet with them. I then take time to write out questions and at the end ask to meet regularly.

  30. AnonyMouse*

    Anyone have advice for staying motivated in your current job when you’re actively job searching? I’m reaching burnout levels of lack of motivation in my current position, and mustering up the motivation and energy to complete my work has been getting increasingly difficult. I obviously don’t want to leave on bad terms, so I know I need to get my act together quick.

    1. k.k*

      I wanted to ask this same question today. I’ve reached a point where I struggle sometimes to even find the motivation to apply for new jobs. Very counter intuitive, but my I’m is such an “over it” head-space :/

      1. AnonyMouse*

        I’m in the same boat! I’m really trying to ramp up my job search and apply for as much as I can, so it almost feels like I’m working two jobs right now- my actual job and then the job that is job searching.

    2. this too shall pass*

      I was in the same place recently, constantly worrying, being occupied with my career path 24/7 (working during the day and job searching at night). What helped me was actually pulling back, caring less about my job. This might not make sense for everyone, but it helped me to take the pressure off. That it is ok to do an ok job if that is all that you can do and that this does not reflect on you personally. In a way I’m also “over it” but I know I do care about my next job/career path. So I focus mostly on the good parts of my current job, which are for me constantly learning, working on transferable technical skills (I lack experience in the niche field I want to move in). What motivated me was finding a way to incorporate my job search into my current job (in an “extending your resume skill list” kinda way, not “browsing job openings” way).
      Also thinking about how nothing lasts forever and how great your next job will be, is a great reminder to zoom out. I don’t know if this helps (or even made sense) but good luck on your job hunt!

      1. Newbie*

        I feel like this is me right now. I’m currently job hunting but it’s taking longer than I had hoped and expected. I just feel very “over it” about everything- the job hunt that’s taking so long, trying to stay engaged at work, etc. I just keep repeating to myself little mantras like “Nothing lasts forever” or “No job is perfect” to get me through haha

    3. Seespotbitejane*

      I’m in the middle of the same thing. Everyone in my office is being laid off at the end of March and I have very little actual work to do anymore and even less motivation to get it done. In my case it doesn’t really matter since this entire branch is closing.

      Have you thought about bullet journaling or some other organizational method? Put down the tasks that you need to get done to perform adequately. You don’t need to be exceptional anymore, but you want to make sure you’re getting the base job done. And maybe reframe your thinking about the work to make it a part of your job search. “I need to do this so I can get a reasonable reference for New Job.”

      It’s hard though. I feel you.

    4. Manders*

      This may not work for everyone, but for me, “I’ll make them miss me when I’m gone!” was a powerful motivation.

      That said, if you’re burning out because you’re doing too much (instead of because you’re bored with your daily tasks), scaling back to a reasonable amount of work isn’t a bad idea.

      1. Seespotbitejane*

        Oh man, spite is such a powerful motivator for me. Sometimes when I get what I think is a stupid assignment I go “I’m gonna finish this stupid thing so fast! Then you’ll see how stupid it was! That’ll show you!”

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Tell yourself you no longer work for the company, you work for your resume. You want to make your resume look great.

    5. Jukeboxx32*

      Oof, this was me last November. Honestly the only thing that helped was staying away from my desk as often as possible. Taking 10 minute breaks twice a day to walk around, taking lunch outside of the office, even if that means eating in your car, all of it helps.

    6. AnonyMouse*

      Thanks everyone! It was helpful knowing I’m not the only one who feels/has felt this way. The “working for your resume” thought has been helpful today. Basically approaching all of my tasks by thinking “if I get this done now I can talk about this in my next interview!”

      In regards to why I’m burnt out, it has to do with being bogged down with too much work, but sadly I can’t do anything about it. We have one coworker out on leave until mid-spring, one coworker leaving shortly after she comes back (and they’re probably more over it than I am), and another coworker who I have a sneaking suspicion may also be actively searching (to give you an idea of the dysfunction levels). I’m covering the workload of the person who is on leave and also covering some of the workload for the person who is leaving.

      I know searches take time, but I’m really hoping to have something lined up before my lease is up at the end of May (my last job search took four months). I’m contemplating leaving at that point and temping if need be until I can find something permanent (I’m in my early to mid twenties, so I feel like that’s somewhat forgivable for me still given where I am in my career). I just can see myself staying longer than that for my own mental health.

    7. Product person*

      I don’t have any particular advice on staying motivated in your current job when actively job searching, but this reminder may help create some external motivation to continue to do your best until you leave:

      Studies show that people remember two things about their experience: the peak (best or worse moment) and the last thing. (See the last book from the Heath Brothers, “The Power of Moments”).

      Ask yourself, “how do I want to be remembered if in the future someone reaches out to this organization, formally or informally, to ask about my work?”. Imagine doing a stellar job for years, but then spending your last weeks or months as a slacker with no energy to complete your work. Do you want one of the two things that people remember about you to be your subpar performance at the end?

  31. Applesauced*

    I recently applied for an internal leadership program at my office; the applications said participants would be notified the week of 2/5…. It’s Friday, and I haven’t heard.
    Do I assume I haven’t been selected? Is there any harm in contacting the program coordinator and ask about it? Any phrasing suggestions?

    1. Artemesia*

      I would assume you haven’t been selected but then I always fear the worst. Things tend to take longer than they take, so it is entirely possible that they are just behind. I’d let it ride another week and then touch base.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      I wouldn’t follow up until next Wednesday, just because things can always take longer than you might hope.

      1. Shortie*

        Agree with Artemesia about waiting a week. Timelines often slip.

        I definitely wouldn’t follow up today since the week of 2/5 isn’t over yet. The person who is supposed to contact you may be planning to work late tonight or over the weekend, so it could annoy them if you follow up before they’re technically late. (Disclaimer: This really annoys me, so I’m projecting onto them.) :-)

        Re: phrasing suggestions, I would just do it in a low-key way, something like replying to the last email they sent about it and “just checking in” to see if they have made a selection decision or need additional information. But if they don’t respond, I wouldn’t follow up again.

  32. Myrin*

    Oh man.

    There was a job posting two weeks ago that was basically made for me – I have all the required qualifications, it’s in my very niche part of my field, it’s exactly the kind of work I want to do, I happen to know the whole team I’d be working with/the boss I’d be working for (who’re all impressed with the work I’ve done so far), and it’s working with materials that are quite prestigious in my field. So.

    The downside? It’s in a city – and a part of the country, really – I would never, ever, ever want to move to (which I’d have to do for this position). I wasn’t really a huge bummer because that location really was an instant dealbreaker as soon as I saw the ad and I’m not really thinking about it often but when I do I’m like damn, couldn’t you have been literally anywhere else?

    1. Cruciatus*

      Does that company have other locations? Maybe at least now since you know they have work you’d like to do you could see whether it exists in better locations and keep them in mind for the future?

      1. Myrin*

        Sadly no – it’s a university library. I work with medieval manuscripts and sadly, there are only so many of those. I’m eagerly waiting for the exact same project – although exactly the same isn’t possible; the “prestigious materials” I talk about are a group of manuscripts which have a bit of an outstanding status in my field, although there are others of similar value – to be picked up by my home library or at least one that isn’t in this place.

    2. MLiz*

      I took in a job in a dealbreaker city. Once. I regretted it for the whole time I was there and when I was laid off (position eliminated) I hightailed it out of there. I’m employed again but I’m low key always looking for a job where I like it better.

    3. a-no*

      Ugh I feel you. I recently applied for a job that was listed in my area (I filter them to only be within my city). It was perfect, spent the time doing my cover letter and tailoring my resume. Sent it in then realized that while it was all listed in my city, the physical location on the map was in a city I would never ever move to.

  33. Snark*

    It’s been a while, and I feel like we could all use some frivolity, soooooo…..

    Do you have a smartass question in need of a smartass answer? Do you think Alison’s advice is occasionally too reasonable and actionable? Does your Friday need a dose of sass, frivolity, and weird humor? Well, then, muchachos y muchachas, it’s time to….

    ASK SNARK

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I had been wondering if Alison would publish some fake questions for April Fool’s Day. I’m sure there are some questions that are obviously fake and it would be great to get a absurdly fake answer.

    2. periwinkle*

      Our VP announced that there will be no promotions-in-place. If you want a promotion, you need to either move to another role or move into a vacant position on your current team. I was just assigned to a brand new team and will be doing exactly the work I want to do – but it was a lateral move.

      There will be others on this new team, and some are likely to be in a higher-level position. Clearly I will need to kill one of my teammates to get a promotion.

      Is it better to do this on a Friday so I’ll have the whole weekend to engineer the alibi, or on a Monday so I can spend the weekend preparing the deadly trap?

      1. Snark*

        Thank heavens, I got worried there and then you ended right in my wheelhouse.

        I’m kind of liking the deadly trap on Monday alternative, because you can both engineer the alibi and prepare the trap at your leisure. But I’d actually do it midweek. Have you ever known anybody who got murdered on a Tuesday? Do a coffee run for the whole team on Monday and deflect suspicion.

        1. periwinkle*

          A follow-up question: I was thinking about digging a pit and filling it with wolves. Should I warn people at my own level, in case they have allergies?

          I was leaning towards a Friday scheme because this is not normally a pet-friendly workplace. People would notice the wolves. However, we are allowed to wear sports team gear on Fridays; if I put Seahawks jerseys on the wolves, people may not be as likely to notice they aren’t really engineers.

          1. Snark*

            I think it’d be only polite to warn people with fur allergies about the pit of wolves. And I love the jersey idea, because who’d think twice about a hirstute, aggressive creature in Seahawks gear?

        2. Goya de la Mancha*

          But I mean, if you did it on a Monday morning, you’d really be doing your co-worker a favor, because Mondays.

      2. Casuan*

        A walk in the woods helps me relax & release tension.
        The fact that I am dragging a body should be entirely irrelevant.
        -author unknown

    3. selina kyle*

      Riddle me this – what’s the logic behind folks who take the last of the coffee and leave the empty pot on to burn until some other unlucky soul finds it?

        1. Snark*

          Fresh coffee is actually formed by the coalescence of void energy tripped by a quantum waveform collapse intiated by the observation that the coffee is all gone. Schrodinger’s latte.

          1. Casuan*

            Okay, so I need some coffee before I can process all of that… What coffee would you recommend?
            A Hair of the Schrodinger’s latte?
            Probably I need to tell the coffee place how to make it, so recipe, please.

        3. Annie Moose*

          This appears to be the same logic behind all of the people at my workplace who walk up to the dishwasher, look at the magnet that is CLEARLY on the “dirty” marker, and put their dirty glass on the counter directly above the dishwasher instead of taking the extra half a second to pull the dishwasher open and put their glass inside.

          I refuse to load their dishes for them because a) I don’t use the glasses so why should I be responsible for them and b) I’m not going to give the patriarchy the satisfaction of me cleaning up after it.

      3. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Actually, according to the Uncertainty Principle, the pot is not burnt until someone sees it is burnt, so it’s your fault for finding the burnt coffee pots!

    4. hermit crab*

      It is becoming increasingly clear that the only way to please one of my clients is to learn how to read his mind. Do you have any tips for brushing up on ESP skills?

      1. Snark*

        The CIA experimented with giving people acid. And hey, it’s Friday! You’ve got all day tomorrow to trip. Report back.

    5. Symplicite*

      Dear Snark,

      I have to deal with an office overseas who has been engaged in my project since July 2017, but is only NOW realizing that their systems are impacted and need to provide information (despite getting signoff and limited agreement back in October). I want to set them ablaze in every possible way, but it’d be killsville for the work environment, and a seriously C-L-M (career-limiting-move) if I did. Am I fucked? Any suggestions for how not to let my aggravation show?

      1. Snark*

        I keep a tiny table from a dollhouse on my desk precisely for these moments. I get an email, go outside, primal scream, come back inside, flip my little table, then compose a professional if slightly icy reply.

        2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          Yellow card! That response was entirely too reasonable and actionable. I suggest a Boring Company (not a) Flamethrower. They are “Guaranteed to liven up any party!” and
          “World’s safest flamethrower!” therefore totally not killsville or C-L-M, right?

    6. bluelyon*

      My coworker can’t understand why nobody takes her seriously…. I’m inclined to think it’s because she behaves pretty much like Regina George absent the burn book.
      How can I make that clear to her without pushing her in front of a bus?

      1. Snark*

        “Have you considered not acting like a 22-year-old portraying a 15-year-old rich blonde girl in a Disney Channel comedy sitcom aimed at tweens? MAYBE TRY THAT, BECAUSE FETCH IS A THING.”

        1. bluelyon*

          Snark,
          It turns out there is a group chat that may be an adult version of the burn book… we work across from a high school
          If your initial phrasing doesn’t work can I claim it was an accident when I go the bus route?

    7. The Cosmic Avenger*

      My friend does Bad Advice Monday on Facebook, sounds like a similar service! :D

      Also reminds me of this old favorite desk sign, pre-Internet:

      ANSWERS: $1
      CORRECT ANSWERS: $5
      HELPFUL ANSWERS: $20
      Snide commentary is free!

    8. Goya de la Mancha*

      Almighty Snark:
      I work in a small office and have a co-worker who is BEYOND nosy. He is a helicopter parent to extreme and it has over flowed into his work life. He can not stand to be left out of meetings (even when they do not pertain to him in the least), makes snarky comments like “since I wasn’t invited”, is just plain bad at hiding the fact that he reads your computer screen (no matter what is on it). I am in need of a snark script.

      1. Snark*

        “Well, of course you weren’t invited, Huey.”

        “BUT WHYYYYY THO”

        “Mostly because we don’t like you.”

        And always keep a Word doc open with “I WILL NOT KILL MY NOSY ASS COWORKER” repeated 100 times on it, then switch to that when he approaches.

          1. Goya de la Mancha*

            Thank you! :’-D

            (Seriously wishing I could use these, but I think my boss would take issue…not to mention Huey!)

            1. Betsy*

              We have this exact same co-worker. He turns up to meetings he was never invited to, and people wonder how he even knew about them in the first place. It’s slightly paranoia inducing. Like, does he eavesdrop on everyone and then make a detailed spreadsheet of every meeting in the fifteen-story building?

      1. Snark*

        So, we’re dogsitting for some friends, and their pup Morrie is smallish. We have a collie who’s much taller. They play wrestle. You’d think the big dog has the advantage, right? Morrie always wins, though, because she goes straight for the ankles.

        I trust the strategy is obvious.

        I recommend a heavy metal ruler or similar implement, applied briskly to the shin or ankle bone.

            1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

              I think that might actually be a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

    10. Plague of frogs*

      Snark, I am spending a lot of time on AAM. Am I correct in assuming that reading about other people working is the same as working?

    11. Lol, I'm loving this thread*

      I have a coworker who’s a total A-hole and sits one level above me in the organization. I want to make him aware of his a-hole-ness, but I tend to avoid confrontation. Do you think setting his car on fire would get the message across? I dream of it often.

      1. periwinkle*

        That seems passive-aggressive. AAM’s advice is usually to be direct with the person with whom you have an issue.

        So, set your coworker on fire. A high-quality flamethrower will eliminate the confrontation element. And the surroundings, really.

      2. Snark*

        Depends. Is it a late-model German executive sedan with the base four-cylinder and the Premium Package? If so, don’t light it on fire, because that only hurts the leasing company. I’d personally go with the ignited paper bag of dogshit on the welcome mat, if you’re feeling flamey.

    12. Nervous Accountant*

      Oh snark, Id love your take on this. A client was upset he couldn’t get in touch with me. I was away for a few weeks bc my father passed away. He wrote….and I quote. “I was never notified that my accountant was out on a family emergency. Only through an out of office message did I learn of this”.

      1. Snark*

        I would, with great professionalism and friendliness, notify him of every schedule discrepancy.

        “Dear Client, I will be leaving 23 minutes early this afternoon to pick up a bottle of wine on the way home. In my absence, please feel free to connect with my coworker Fergus for any needs you may have.”

        “Dear Client, I will be delayed returning from lunch by approximately four minutes due to traffic. In my absence, please feel free to connect with my coworker Fergus for any needs you may have.”

        “”Dear Client, I’m taking a half day today because day-drinking sounds like a thing. In my absence, please feel free to connect with my coworker Fergus for any needs you may have.”

        “Dear Client, I am the office pooper, so i’ll be away from my desk for the next twelve minutes. Don’t worry, I use poo-pourri. In my absence, please feel free to connect with my coworker Fergus for any needs you may have.”

    13. Nervous Accountant*

      Snark how can I tell my boss and upper Mgmt to go f themselves without getting my direct manager in trouble (love him don’t want to screw him over)?

    14. J.B.*

      Dear Snark,

      I am leaving my job in several months and super huge ego manager insists his work is SUCH A HIGH PRIORITY my team must do it all the time instead of being trained by me. It is quite likely that I will not be able to pass on mission critical knowledge. If they come back begging me to consult (for 2x current hourly rate), what bribes should I require?

      1. Snark*

        “Ever see a rap video with the guy just flicking benjamins off a stack? Come over with a few thousand dollars and a bottle of Henessey and I’ll just tell you when to stop.”

    15. Merci Dee*

      Most Amazing Snark,

      My cube is the last in the line in our cube farm, which means that I am closest to the door that leads from our admin offices out onto the production floor. Very often, people are making phone calls when they come into the door from the production floor; as a result, they are bellowing at the top of their voices into their phones, as though they were trying to pass the message over the many miles to their recipient without benefit of the glorious technology in their hands. Many of these loud-mouthed conversationalists do not seem to understand that, once they have walked through the door into the quiet admin offices, they can lower their voices to a more appropriate office for the environment. They simply continue to scream into their phones for the entire length of the call. How do I get these people to stop yelling once they’ve entered the quiet office where I am working? So far, I’ve tried glaring at the worst offenders, or putting my finger to my lips to encourage them to lower their voices. None of these tactics seem to work. I’m now considering launching small hard candies into their gobs with a slingshot when they walk past my desk. Is this a good idea? If so, which flavor of candy would you recommend? (I’m leaning toward Lemonheads, because they’re small and spherical and should fly quite nicely when launched from the slingshot.)

      1. Snark*

        The aerodynamics of Lemonheads are compelling, and they have the compelling advantage that nobody actually likes them, but that strikes me as a short-term solution. You want something that will make them shut up for an extended period AND which nobody actually likes.

        I propose Bit-O-H0ney. Inferior aerodynamics, but they taste like they were invented in 1924 because they were, and they will cement the bellowers’ teeth together almost as well as honey that’s been sitting on the shelf since 1924 because I think that’s all they actually are. Swedish Fish would also be a possibility, but I know of one person who actually enjoys them.

          1. Snark*

            But everybody loves them. That’s the thing – you don’t want to inadvertantly condition them to expect a reward for bellowing.

            1. SarahKay*

              I do not love them.
              Years ago (when they weren’t available in the UK) a friend brought some back from the US and offered one to me. From the picture on the box I thought it was caramel in the middle, and instead got a horribly gluey mouthful of peanut butter. While I quite like peanut butter, the texture and taste were so different from what I expected it was a totally bleurgh shock.
              I have never forgiven them for that accidental bait and switch.

              1. Snark*

                Reese’s do have a very particular texture. It works as the sort of pie-shaped peanut butter cups, but I do not love the consistency of a Reese’s Piece – it’s dry and grainy in a way that only works if chocolate is melting into it as you chew it.

        2. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Necco wafers. Not only are they chalky little discs made of compressed sawdust and disappointment, they’re so hard that you could probably put an eye out with one.

        3. valc2323*

          Potentially Atomic Fireballs? They would fly as well as lemonheads, plus the cinnamon burn.

          I like Bit-o-Honey. May I recommend substituting those peanut butter things wrapped in orange and black waxed paper instead? They have the beneficial attributes – cementing teeth together, tasting like something that’s been sitting on a shelf for almost a century – while also adding the strange disappointment of something that is almost, but not entirely, completely unlike peanut butter.

    16. Thursday Next*

      Would you accept gold chains as payment for your advice? It could solve your shirt-unbuttoning quandary.

    17. Wallflower*

      Dear Snark: I’ve been working hard, hoping that management will notice my accomplishments and give me a bigger role in the institution, but it hasn’t happened! My work is consistently good, but other people get the leadership roles. What should I do??

    18. zora*

      Dear Most Glorious Snark,
      People on our floor have become office slobs (not employees of our company, this is a cowork space) and have started leaving the kitchen tables a mess, piling their mugs in the sink instead of putting them in the clearly marked bins.

      Since I don’t actually know or work with these people, what can I do to punish them for being gross and rude and not cleaning up after themselves?

        1. zora*

          Unfortch, the mugs are provided by the management, and there is a cleaning staff that handles the dishwasher, all you have to do is put the mugs in the big red bus bins that say “DIRTY MUGS HERE”

          If I see someone put their mug in the sink or on the counter, can I just go pour the leftover coffee over their head??

      2. baconeggandcheeseplease*

        I know a girl who was an RA in college and she used to put people’s dirty dishes in their beds, so whatever the office version of that is? But I think pouring coffee on their heads works too.

    19. Weyrwoman*

      Dear Snark,

      I recently burned the literal bridge from the parking deck into my officespace. I’m sure that there is camera evidence of my crime, but how can I backtrack this to make it sound like I was just ensuring everyone had the same opportunities for personal development?

      (*Please note: no crime described here was actually committed in the writing of this message, before the writing of this message, or after the writing of this message.*)

    20. Oranges*

      I just want to do the fun parts of my job. Like the coding stuff that’s cool. However my job is 50-70% boring coding. How can I make the boring parts go away?

    21. Lissa*

      Ok I’ll play, this is “question” from my time in a super dysfunctional chain restaurant.

      “My manager is the mother of two other employees, one of whom is a supervisor. I recently found out the supervisor was doing illegal drugs with the owner in his office. When I send an email from an anonymous, throwaway account, detailing all I know about these encounters, to the Manager Mother, Employee Sister, and Owner’s Wife, should I use CC or BCC?”

      1. Weyrwoman*

        I’m sure snark will love this one buuuut. Go for broke. Create the biggest drama llama you can – CC everyone listed, and maybe a major news outlet while you’re at it.

      2. Snark*

        As Weyrwoman says, CC that shit. Include the district and regional managers and all employees, including yourself so it’s not obvious who it came from.

        If you’re gonna burn shit, burn it all down. Snow angels in the ashes, save some to make a festive snow globe.

  34. MadeUpUserName*

    I’m starting a new job in two weeks and have the next two weeks off. I’m traveling to see friends and family and then decompressing/resting the weekend before starting, and I’m curious how other people prepare/get ready when they’re starting new jobs. What do you do? What’s worked and hasn’t worked for you?

    1. Why Oh Why Does this keep happening?*

      Testing the commute so I know how much time I need to allow.

      Checking out what food there would be for lunch so I know if I need to pack a lunch.

      Anonymously going to the workplace to see what it’s like and to experience what it’s like for a customer.

      1. Tableau Wizard*

        I would definitely not show up to the workplace to scope it out. I can’t think of a single industry / type of job where this wouldn’t be weird.

      2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        You said you have two weeks off before starting the new job? On your 2nd week, start setting your alarm again so you can get back into the habit of getting up early (if that’s an issue). Also, test the commute and check out the area where your new office building is.

      3. a-no*

        I do the same up to the workplace lurk – that’s a bit much.
        Usually two times in the week before I start I make the commute in the morning then go home again. I live in a city where traffic is a bit illogical so it’s kind of worth it – by illogical I mean if I leave before 7:20 or between 7:33 to 36, or at 7:50 I will get to work by 8 am (on time).
        If I leave out of any of those windows, I get to work between 8:15 – 8:30. Totally illogical as somehow I’d end up passing myself to get there on time? I don’t even know how it works, but 4 years of exact results doesn’t lie.

    2. BigSigh*

      I’m starting a new job in two weeks too! CONGRATS!

      Honestly, I have no idea what’s needed. They sent me this amazing intro packet. I need to bring a passport or license/ss card. They told me food options available and that a fridge and microwave are available in the company kitchen. The location is on the way to my current place of employment, so I already know how long it takes to get there….

    3. Good luck!*

      I find it helpful to plan out my outfits for the first week. This minimizes stress and decision-making in the mornings! Make sure your fridge is stocked, too, or at least plan to order takeout on your way home from work. There’s nothing worse than coming home from an exhausting day at a new job and realizing you have nothing easy to fix for dinner.

  35. Nervous Accountant*

    Update on the awful client from last week who was mad I didn’t answer her emails when I was away for my fathers funeral:

    When she had spoken to my mgr on Fri, he said that she was upset and wanted to speak to me only and refused to work with anyone else.

    I emailed her on Friday to acknowledge our meeting on Monday. I spoke to her on Monday. She said “oh i have no idea what to talk about, I didn’t even want to talk but they forced me to have this appt so you guide me”. So guide I did–anything I said, she was angry and kept interrupting. Basically whatever I was trying to explain, she was angry she didn’t already know. Even though…the purpose of the call is to explain things? But whenever I tried to explain, she went off ranting and screaming.

    At this point she could have still requested another accountant and we would have reassigned her but I realized that it seemed like she’s intentionally trying to bait me to get angry and say/do something regretful and get in trouble (God knows why). I’m on my own w this bc my company won’t do anything about it.

    So I decided to just go on the attack. She was mad I couldn’t respond? I called and emailed her 2x a day to make sure she had everything and to move things along.

    yes, this is all fucked up, but it’s taking every ounce of professionalism and decency to not leave right now. I have my fantasies of walking out in a blaze of glory but that’s what it is, just a fantasy. I know realistically that work can be unfair, people can be ugly, my dad’s not coming back, and I’ve worked too hard over the last few years to throw it all away on 1 human dingleberry.

    1. Murphy*

      I’m so sorry for what you’re going through, and that this client is making a difficult time even more so.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      This whole thing makes me so angry on your behalf, but I am definitely fond of the “kill them with kindness” approach and love that you’re over communicating now.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I had another client upset this week at me not being there. He emailed the complaint on Friday, no one attended to it over the weekend and Sunday night he msgs one of our VPs on Linked In. He specifically wrote “no one told me my accountant was out on a family emergency until I got her auto response.”

        Like—what the heck? what the actual F?

        I didn’t get any issue for it thank goodness, so I’m not mad at that, just amused and annoyed. The VP contacted my manager and mgr talked to the client. He told me that the guy was like “yeayea whatever death whatever I want my $ back.” he cancelled his services so I didn’t have to talk to him thank goodness.

        Idk if this is something normal in all industries–my company never expects me to go out of my way to inform clients I’ll be away but if they are mad, oh well. My generation gets such a bad rep, but these are people in their 50s and 60s acting like such entitled brats.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          … so he expected them to proactively contact every single one of your clients? That makes no sense! I mean, yeah, if he had an appointment or something on your calendar, I could see being annoyed about not being notified, but that is kind of the point of an OOO message!

          Please be good to yourself this weekend. You deserve some down time.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            No no, my company doesn’t expect that (thank god). If it comes up as a topic of convo (for a vacation) that’s ok but obv not this.

            Any appts are monitored and calendars are blocked in advance so clients can’t schedule appts. I’m not sure what this guy was expecting, thats such a ridiculous comment it made no sense at all.

            It’s funny that this guy who acts like this makes 5x more than I ever will in my life.

          2. As Close As Breakfast*

            And honestly, if you’re a client with an appointment on the calendar that gets missed and you aren’t proactively notified, you can be annoyed right up until the point where you learn that the reason she missed the meeting with no notification is because of a death in her family. Sure, that much info doesn’t need to be shared and “family emergency” should cover it, but it sounds like maybe these ‘problem’ clients are finding out. Basic human decency should win out at that point! A**holes.

        2. LKW*

          Your clients are absolutely unreasonable and while I’m closing in on 50… people in their 60’s and 70’s and beyond can be awful, entitled pr**ks. I had a similar issue recently. I emailed a few people and said “I’m out until I’m not out”, turned on my out of office message and that was that. No one gave me grief. When I figured out when I’d be back, I told them and they were fine with it.

        3. Espeon*

          Where on Earth is your company finding these clients?!

          This is (one of the reasons) why the financial world was not for me, so many unhinged, angry, and often late-middle-aged people with a completely screwed view of priorities… and that was just my manager! Noped our of there within a year.

          I’m sorry NA!

      2. Liane*

        If you *have* to talk on the phone–or, heavens forbid, in person–use the honorific “Ma’am” liberally, promiscuously. Every phrase, or at least every sentence. It was one of my top customer service tools for dealing with that extra-special-ice-crystal type. Just make sure you don’t let a subatomic particle of annoyance, sarcasm, condescension, etc. show. Normal pleasant, professional tone–not purple-unicorn levels of sweetness (1 or 2 puppies/kittens worth, max).
        Of course, communicating solely by email, IMs etc. would be better for you. I find it gives me enough distance to keep from going all Must. Control. Fist of. Death! like Engineer Alice on them.

      3. The OG Anonsie*

        Yeah, I think this response is honestly perfect.

        I am biased because it’s how I deal with people when they’re being crazy, but I find it works pretty well.

    3. Artemesia*

      When you have to abase yourself like this, the only thing that works for me is to become the anthropologist i.e. distance yourself, find her pathology ‘interesting’, take note or notes of the behavior, feel deep and abiding contempt. And think of it as a funny workplace story you can share with colleagues when you have dinner at conferences and are telling war stories.

      She knows it was your Dad’s funeral? What an awful awful person. It does amaze that people like this manage to rise enough in the world to be a client of anyone.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Well I said it to her otp that I was out for my dads funeral and she said “idk why everyone keeps saying that, my issue was w the person who helped me” (we looked it over, my support did a great job in helping her. She just didn’t like the way he spoke or that he was male).

        W the second guy I just mentioned, we had a good laugh about him. He may have had legit complaints but he lost all credibility with “I had to find out from an auto response!”

  36. Why Oh Why Does this keep happening?*

    Button-up (Oxford) shirt question:

    How many buttons can or should be unbuttoned in a casual but professional office?

    Is the number the same for women, men and non-binary people?

    This is assuming there is no undershirt or camisole.

    What is the practice where you work?

    1. Snark*

      I usually have my shirts buttoned to the second button down or to the hollow at the base of my neck/top of my sternum. I’m a fella; any further and I’d be displaying chest hair, and I just don’t have the gold chains for that.

    2. EnobyPro*

      NB here. The most buttons I’ve felt comfortable unbuttoning on a button-down Oxford shirt is one, that makes it look more casual, but still professional. The answer is probably different depending on the style of shirt (like a “women’s” blouse)

    3. HannahS*

      I’d say I see the top button undone pretty universally in not-formal environments, but not more that that.

    4. Arielle*

      I love this question. I think second button unbuttoned is too much if there’s no undershirt, but I used to leave that button undone when I was dressing more femmey, always with a camisole underneath.

      With my current gender presentation/style, I find that buttoned to the neck reads “lesbian” while collar button unbuttoned reads “masculine.” (Why, I do not know.)

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        … You know, I’ve noticed the same thing about lesbian/masculine reading and I just cannot put into words why it works that way. All I know is that I deeply miss my butch days.

        1. Arielle*

          Going from a pixie to an undercut (and buying a couple of bow ties) really pushed me over into visibly queer, which I like because I’m a bi cis woman married to a man and I’m pretty invested in people not assuming I’m straight.

      2. EnobyPro*

        Oh my god! That’s why everyone was calling me “she” at a networking event last night! Y’know, except for the people who looked at my nametag and saw my pronouns listed as “they”…

      3. Emi.*

        I think the exception to your buttoned-to-the-neck rule is if you’re wearing a necklace outside the collar.

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Top button is the only one I’ve seen when there’s nothing underneath.

      For me, I can’t button them over my bust unless they’re either generously cut for curves or hilariously oversized, so I always go with a sleeveless top of some description underneath.

      1. Merci Dee*

        I have the same problem with the Oxford option that’s part of our “team wear”. I’m a plus-sized woman, but in an hour-glass kind of way (bust and hips, but my waist still tucks in some). So for the Oxford shirts, I can fasten, like, the 4 buttons in the middle that live between my bust and my hips. So I didn’t even bother. I would wear another shirt with a cool pattern under the Oxford and just leave it unbuttoned.

        Then management decided to add another few options for our team wear, and I threw away the Oxford shirts with a big sigh of relief.

    6. Eye of Sauron*

      Pet peeve of mine. Forget about the buttons… wear an undershirt or cami regardless of sex, gender, or day of the week.

      1. JeanB in NC*

        Why? It’s a shirt that’s made to cover your body. Why do I need to put another shirt underneath it?

        1. Eye of Sauron*

          I never said it was rational… just that it’s a pet peeve of mine :) And you don’t need to do anything, I of course will be silently judging you though.

          (this was said in humor because I really do know it’s my hangup and oddity)

    7. Yams*

      I’m a guy in a casual office, so 1 button until the sun swallows the earth or I need to wear a tie. I’m not even sure under what context I would unbotton 2 but I’m unusually buttoned up, so ymmv.

      Fun story time, a couple months ago some guys came over from a supplier to introduce their new product lines. Their sales guy had 3 unbottoned buttons. There was no undershirt. So. Much. Chest. Hair. It was both disturbing and distracting, dear god I don’t know who told him that looked good but holy crap. It was too much. To this day I’m still not entirely sure what they sell, but holy crap do I remember his chest hair.

    9. Ghost Town*

      In my old position, someone higher up constantly wore button down shirts with no undershirts and always left the top two buttons undone. It always made me uncomfortable, didn’t look professional, and honestly, kinda feels like a power play on his part (definitely superimposing my own perceptions of him as a whole onto those two undone buttons).

    10. Totally Minnie*

      I use my old religious school method to determine an appropriate level of unbuttonedness.

      You place your thumb in the hollow between your collarbones and lay your hand flat across your chest. If there is skin showing between your hand and your shirt, you should do up another button.

    11. valc2323*

      I work in a relatively casual office in a conservative-ish industry. Most men leave one button undone, undershirt or no; most women don’t wear button-ups. I have one coworker (male) who doesn’t wear an undershirt and always leaves two buttons undone. I do not need to know that much about my coworker’s chest hair.

  37. Blue Anne*

    How much weight do you give to glassdoor reviews?

    I’m applying with a lot of local companies and have just been asked to interview at one. It’s a small company and I wasn’t expecting to see anything on glassdoor, but there’s one terrible review.

    What would you do?

    2. k.k*

      If there is only one review, I keep it in the back of my head but don’t give it too much weight. When interviewing you can look out for signs or ask questions that would give you a clue as to if the review was true. Like asking about company culture if the review lambasted management attitude, etc.

    3. Super anon*

      I take them with a grain of salt. An unhappy employee is way more likely to write a negative review than a happy employee is to write a positive review.

      That said, don’t ignore negative reviews entirely. Current company is a very toxic workplace. They had terrible reviews on Glassdoor, so they’ve been asking specific employees to write (positive) reviews. More negative reviews followed calling them out on this practice, followed by more positive reviews saying the negative reviews were fake news and that no such practice is taking place. It’s actually hilarious to read through all the reviews.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I look for consistency in reviews. If many people say the same good thing or many people say the same bad thing, then I give it a lot of weight. But if there is one bad review and 10 good reviews (that don’t read like PR stuff written by an HR rep) then I let it go.

    5. Snark*

      It’s kind of like Amazon reviews. The one-star reviews are generally lunatics unless there’s a ton of them all agreeing. The 3- and 4- star reviews are going to be the most thoughtful and reasonable ones.

      1. Sunflower*

        That’s a good point I hadn’t thought of. I’ve read quite a few that say they can’t think of anything bad to say and my only guess is that that person must be brand new to the org.

      2. Lady Jay*

        Off-topic, but I find the two-star reviews give me the best idea of potential problems in the product. Problem was serious enough to warrant a low review, but two stars means the reviewer isn’t flying-off-the-handle-angry about it, and will be able to demonstrate reasonableness and accuracy in the review.

    6. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      It would depend what the review said… If it’s one vague review (ala “This company is awful! No one should work here ever!”) I’d completely ignore it. I have no idea who wrote this or why they think it’s awful or if they are someone whose judgement I should trust.

      However – if there’s something specific in it (and the more specific, the more weight I’d give it), then I might end up keeping it in mind/probing a bit more about the specific issue within interviews.

      But overall – I don’t think one anonymous review would ultimately sway me if everything else seemed good and if I probed that specific issue. Unless the review said “management fired my colleague for turning over child porn to the police” (reference to the letter this morning!)

      1. Anony*

        If it is specific and mentioned by more than one person I would give it weight. If it is vague or isolated, then I would ignore it.

    7. Bagpuss*

      I think for me, it would depend a bit on what, specifically , the review says, and whether it sounds more like a personality clash or something more pervasive, and then keep it in mind when interviewing.

    8. Ten*

      I once mentioned Glassdoor reviews in an interview – there were *many* that made the same negative points and I asked the interviewer if he could address those particular issues. He talked circles around them instead and I considered it a bullet dodged when I didn’t get a callback.

    9. zora*

      If it’s just one review, grain of salt. I think Glassdoor is more about trends, if the same things are mentioned by multiple reviews, you can start to see things to pay attention to. But one review isn’t much to go on.

      I would get lots of open ended questions together, and go by the interview.

  38. Cruciatus*

    I know this isn’t illegal and stuff at work isn’t always fair, but I’m still interested to know if anyone who works at a university (or even company) with multiple campuses throughout the state has ever worked out a solution to this. Our university never closes for weather. Ever. And we just broke a record for snowfall in my city. But many other campuses throughout the state do close often, and that means those people get paid days off, often for just the threat of snow and it’s usually actually snowing badly where I live. If I wanted to call off for weather (and fortunately my office is cool about it, but not all on campus are) I could but I’d have to use vacation time. But so far this year many other campuses have called off 3 or more times. Again, I know nothing illegal is happening here, but has anyone else encountered this and received any sort of compensation by their employer (something like snow day time to be used when the weather is awful that doesn’t eat into vacation time, or an extra personal day for those who work at the never closing campus)? This isn’t a deal breaker or anything, but after a slew of closings earlier this week I started wondering about it.

    1. Murphy*

      I work for a state university, most of our facilities are close together, but we do have a few in other areas of the state. We do close for weather sometimes. When we do, it specifically says “Employees working in Teapot County may not report to work today” so I assume those located elsewhere still go to work if their weather is OK. We can work remotely if our job allows but if we don’t then we have to make up that time. We have a special leave we take that’s weather related and we have 90 days to make up that time, or just use PTO.

    2. hermit crab*

      I have no advice, but I feel ya – my spouse works for a federal agency that allows people to pick their start times, as long as they are in the office for certain core hours. Spouse’s start time is 10am. Today there was a government shutdown that ended around 9am. So his coworkers who arrived before 9am were sent home for a free day off, while Spouse is in the office all day because the shutdown ended before he arrived.

    3. lisalee*

      A very similar thing is happening to me today. The local schools are closed, lots of businesses are closed, the city is begging people not to drive, the roads aren’t plowed…and yet we are open. It’s extremely frustrating, especially since we are not remotely essential to the functioning of the university. My boss is fairly flexible and is letting people who live far away leave early, but that’s the only concession we get.

    4. MLB*

      I can sympathize. I’ve been working professionally for over 20 years and only once has my company closed due to snow. Over the last 8 years I’ve been in some sort of support role, so I never get a snow day even if I work from home and the rest of the office is closed. I’m bitter but it’s a trade off because I do work from home 2 days a week and as needed.

    5. C.*

      Out of curiosity – do you know why your school doesn’t close in bad weather? I only ask because I just heard the (apparently not apocryphal!) story about why mine doesn’t close: back in the 60s classes were canceled for snow and students were throwing snowballs at cars and a driver got pissed and shot and killed someone. Since then they only close if it’s an actual blizzard. So now whenever I hear about places that don’t close I wonder if there’s a similar story behind it.

      1. SlaveToTheFaxMachine*

        I know which school you’re talking about, I work there. Classes were actually held that day, the students were just laying out. So dumb that something that happened over 50 years ago still influences policy today.

    6. CheeryO*

      Yeah, I have kind of a similar situation (state government). We do close occasionally now after a particularly bad snowpocalypse put the fear into everyone a few years ago. Our downstate offices close more often, though still fairly rarely. Our union has gone to bat for us in the past to try to get retroactive PTO for days when basically everything in the area was shut down except for our office. I don’t think they’re generally very successful (most of it dates back to before I started, so I’m not sure), but it still feels nice to have someone advocating for you.

    7. LAI*

      I work for a public university with several campuses. We don’t get snow here, but it’s not unusual for one campus to close due to some kind of weather or natural disaster in their area. In my experience, policies and practices vary widely from one campus to another and you really won’t get anywhere comparing them. I don’t think it could hurt to ask for “snow day time” (if that’s a thing – I’ve never lived in snow) but I wouldn’t base it on what’s happening at the other campuses. They are in a different geographical location and their decisions are being made by other people.

  39. Alternative Person*

    I mentioned last week that my exam for a professional qualification went missing. Well, the exam board found it, I got my results earlier today. I passed! I’m so relieved.

    1. Blue Anne*

      Oh man, that situation would freak me out! I’m so glad it worked out well! Congrats on your pass.

    2. Teapot librarian*

      I’m glad it all worked out for you; I was sympathy stressing over here with you. And congrats on passing!

  40. Nervous Accountant*

    On another note…..

    I’m having a super hard time getting through this. I don’t know if it’s grief or something else.

    I loved my life before.. Work was stressful but it gave me money, a sense of purpose, and the means to travel and do other things I like. I had good attendance at work, I rarely ever called out.

    Now i just feel like quitting and throwing it all away. I’ve had at least 4 conversations with my husband talking me down from quitting, and I promised my mgr that I’m not quitting during the season. My responsibilities changed from reviewer to preparer and I’m super angry about it bc while I don’t mind doing the work, I feel like they will just use this against me to not give me a raise. My mgr assures me it’s bc they need the help and not bc its a reflection on my quality of work and I will not get penalized for it but idk.

    I spent most of Sunday crying bc I had to talk to this awful client. I really felt like travelling back home to be with my mother. In 4 years of working here I’ve NEVER felt this way.

    Tuesday I had a panic attack on my way to work and along with other stuff…I went to the ER thinking it was a heart attack. Everything was “fine” but I begged the Dr for a note ordering me to stay at home for the rest of the day…. just to give you an idea, at one point I had had a miscarriage a while back and I still came in to work the same day….that’s how “power through it” I was.

    WFH isn’t an option my boss rejected it bc I was out for 3 weeks already. I just got downgraded from a reviewer to preparer because they need the help. But I also know that in a few months when it comes time for raises my boss will just use this against me. She’ll use my 3 weeks away, my 1 sick day so far, and my “change of responsibilities” and use them all against me for BS reasons like I’m not setting a good example, I didn’t put in as many hours as others, a preparer cannot be paid as much as a reviewer. I know my mgr will fight tooth and nail for me, but this won’t happen til June/July and I honestly don’t feel like staying long enough.

    I’m trying to get through every hour, every day, one by one. Monday was bad then good, Tuesday was bad, Wednesday was bad then good and Thursday was good I don’t know how today and this weekend will be, although I’m guessing not great bc im mad again.

    I just don’t know what to do anymore.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Does your workplace offer an EAP? With everything you’re going through, it might help you to talk to someone.

    2. Blue Anne*

      Oh hon. I don’t know what to say except that I have deep, deep sympathy. I’m interviewing with other companies right now. I really don’t want to do another season. I’ll go off the deep end, with everything else I have to do.

      You may have promised your manager, but you need to protect yourself too. Keeping your word and keeping a job isn’t worth losing your sanity and health.

    3. EnobyPro*

      I feel for you. I was in the same situation with my previous job, and it got so miserable that I started crying every day after work. If you’re not job searching already, I would start doing it. I wish I had started sooner, because then I might still have a job.

    4. MissDissplaced*

      I think if your work is harming your physical and mental health THAT much, you probably need to stop.
      I’ve had bad, horrible jobs where I wanted out, sure, but only once felt like that. Ideally, you should try to find something else first, but if it is honestly making you ill, I would quit if you’re able to do so.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Idk if it was the job alone that made me sick and go to the ER, I thjnk it was a combo of things (already sick, already prone to panic attacks; missing my dad etc). I’m just feeling more and more angry at work.

      2. Sally*

        +1. I quit a job like this and I’m so much happier now. Quitting IS an option. A job is not worth your life.

    5. Q without U*

      The thing about depression – caused by grief or otherwise – is that it makes everything harder. Coping with normal day-to-day stuff is harder that it ever has been before, and logically you know this, which makes it worse. You assume that it’s your fault for not being able to hold it together when you think you should. Every possible solution seems like it’s just going to make things worse, and so you’re paralyzed to take any action. Even the little pleasures are overwhelmed by everything else, so it’s hard to see that there’s any reason at all to get up in the morning, or to go to work, or function like a normal human being.

      I don’t know if you’re depressed, but it would definitely be a good thing if you could go to your family doctor to talk about what you’re feeling. And this is a concrete thing that you can actually do, right now – call and make an appointment. You could be depressed, you could be dealing with a hormonal imbalance, you could have something else going on, and your doctor can treat you or point you in the right direction.

      The one other thing I’d recommend is setting yourself small, management, achievable goals – even things like fold the laundry or buy yourself a fancy coffee. Something you can look to at the end of the day and say, “Yes, I accomplished something today. I set a goal and then met it.” Even if it’s a little thing, it can help you feel better about your ability to take action, and help you feel a little bit less paralyzed.

    6. WellRed*

      It takes longer to grieve then you might expect. I didn’t take enough time off from work when my dad passed and definitely found myself having less patience for work stuff (the good and the bad). I think because death puts work in perspective in terms of what’s really important in life (But we still have to work).

    7. Catherine from Canada*

      The kindest thing anyone ever said to me was, “When my dad died, I was rat-shit for a year.”

      When my dad died, I was 27, had four kids, almost no money, a mother and two sisters who were basket cases about it and expected me to make them feel better and no idea that I had any right to take time for myself. Being told that it was okay to be “rat-shit for a year” gave me permission to grieve, to hate music, the Christmas tree, happy people, to hate everything and keep going until it got better.
      So I pass it on to you, “when my dad died, I was rat-shit for a year.”
      But it gets better.

    8. LKW*

      I am so sorry that you are going through this. I’m not going to compare grief but I lost my dad many years ago and very recently lost my stepdad. On the morning of, I put my arms around my sister and told her very quietly what I am going to now tell you:

      This is going to be awful. I can’t tell you how awful this will be. I don’t know how long you will grieve. It could be weeks, it could be months, it could be more. Things will not look the same. When I went to my dad’s funeral all I could see was that the world hadn’t stopped and I couldn’t understand why the world hadn’t stopped because my world had been turned up side down. You will think of him and you will cry. You will forget and think you need to give him a call, then you will remember and it will be awful. You will always miss him. But this heartache does get easier. This burden does get lighter. You will come out of the other end but it will take longer than you ever imagined. Be patient with yourself. Be patient with the people around you (at least those who deserve your patience, like your husband). Be good to yourself.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      This is the convergence of grief and a not-so-great job.
      So the answer is yes, both grief and job.

      Grief is an odd thing because it can get us thinking about all the different aspects of our lives. Sometimes we can drift into, the “meaningful work” area and we start thinking about our jobs.

      I am sorry if this sounds bad, but I haven’t been that impressed with your employer. I have thought that you are as tough as they make ’em to keep showing up for this place. And I can see where you really tried to turn things around and make it work. My impression of your place is sort of like an assembly line, blank paperwork in and completed paperwork out. Well, that is fine if people are grateful for the help. When they are not grateful or management misconstrues a whole story line and things rain down on me then I’d start looking at that exit door.

      Losing a parent is like a portal in life. We know are lives are forever changed because Parent is no longer there. It’s pretty normal to look at what we are doing and say, “You know what? I have been putting up with too much crap here and I need to move on.”
      Loss seems to provoke these huge insights for us like this. This happens often enough and to enough people that I think loss is SUPPOSED to make us THINK about what we are doing.
      It’s okay to want something better or want something different. It’s okay to want more out of life. It’s okay to redefine what is important to you and what is not. I hope I can encourage you to follow your new vision of what you want your life to look like.
      Take baby steps and give each step the logic test. Does this step make sense to do? Is there someone I respect that I can talk this over with?

      When my father died, my rose colored glasses came flying off. All of the sudden I started having a bunch of reality checks about a lot of things. Well, this was long over due. I should have been making improvements to my life right along and I had kind of let that slide. So I went slowly and carefully. I set goals and I stuck to my goals.

      Based on what you say here, you sound pretty normal to me. Grief and souring jobs hit people pretty hard. And for grief periods, yeah, a year, perhaps two years is a really hard, hard period. Then a sense of normal sets in because the new normal starts to feel established/anchored. But the grieving does not stop, we can still get pangs in our hearts decades out. Grieve changes form.

      One thing I have told myself, if someone can die and no one feels moved by that, then what kind of a person was this person? In an odd way, the fact that we feel moved by losing a person is a subtle tribute to their life.

      You can test out my theory privately. Just ask yourself, “If I promise me I am out of there in x time frame, how do I feel about that?” When the exhilaration rolls in, you have your answer.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Tbh I have no idea what I want to do career wise. I don’t feel like looking for another job…I just want to be around family and loved ones. I just want my health and peace of mind back.

        1. misspiggy*

          Not So NewReader said everything I came here to say and more, especially about your workplace. While it makes sense that applying for jobs might be too grim at the moment, would you be up for letting your network know that you’d like to hear of any opportunities going?

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        If i thjnk about leaving in a few months. I just feel scared? Nervous? I hate the unknown and uncertainty.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I can relate. In the past I have waited until I hated the job more than I hated uncertainty. That was not a good plan. Because it put me in a place where I could not be more selective about the next place I worked at. I had to take whatever I found and make it work.
          Tell yourself that you do not “have to” do anything, you can just look around and see what options you might have. Who knows, maybe something would catch your eye. Or not. People who feel they do not have options can feel very cornered/trapped. The real truth is many of us have options and good options, too.

        2. WonderingHowIGotHere*

          You have all my empathy and support (as well as practically the whole AAm community across the world), but I think what you really need is some help from your GP, because when you say that you “just want your health and peace of mind back”, I damn near burst into tears on your behalf. It actually took my bursing into tears in my own GP’s office (I was there for a routine check up so the tears came as a surprise to me as well as her!) for me to realise how broken I was at that time. It seems like you’ve already realised it, but you need a professional to give you the help you need, be that medicine, or doctor prescribed time off.
          But if you do take the time off, don’t put pressure on yourself to come up with a solution straight away. Give yourself permission to just sit in your PJs and listen to the radio, or watch trashy daytime TV (nothing news or reality based – I was pleasantly surprised how soothing I found watching old Bugs Bunny cartoons – I’m not being facetious; the cartoons gave my conscious brain something non-taxing to watch while my unconscious brain worked through my anxiety and depression). But that permission only lasts a day. The next day you get dressed. The day after, other small victories, like folding and putting away laundry. And you *gently* (cannot emphasise this enough) realise what you want. And it won’t be unknown or uncertain, because you’ll have worked it out over time, and with a plan. You may even (as I did) decide that you are ready to go back to your current work, that the challenges won’t be so challenging, because you will have recovered in your own time.
          Breathe.
          Peace and love be with you

    10. Weyrwoman*

      To be honest, if you can, I’d start job searching. If nothing else, it’s a great way to keep your mind on other things while you deal with work that is beneath your pay grade or otherwise demeaning to you.

    11. LilySparrow*

      Grief is a sonofabitch, and the more “power thru it” you were before, the bigger freight train will hit you all at once.

      Loss is painful, inescapable, and beyond your control. Our natural response is to look for sources of pain we can control, and try to escape them.

      Yes, it sounds like your job is honestly obnoxious right now. But that’s not the source of your big pain, and escaping it won’t fix your feelings.

      Now, it could be that finding a less-stressful job would be good for you, especially at this point in life. But that’s something you need to plan for realistically, not just throw a match and run.

      As far as the overwhelming up-and-down feelings, Bach’s Rescue Remedy spray got me through many days when I was about to come apart after losing my mom. Again, it doesn’t magically fix things, but it helped me think straight long enough to find a private place to come apart in.

      You’re going to lose it sometimes when you’re grieving. You just need to make time and space where you can lose it safely.

    12. Totally Minnie*

      I’m sorry this is happening to you. I wish it wasn’t.

      I was young when my dad died and I didn’t realize it at the time, but it was like a switch was flipped in my brain and in an instant I was an entirely different person. It sounds like a version of that is happening for you. Your old coping mechanisms aren’t working, because you’re not who you were.

      It sucks that your boss isn’t supporting you in this. That he made you have one on one contact with a person who was mad at you for grieving is not a good sign. But I’m inclined to agree with your husband that this might not be the best timing when it comes to life altering decisions.

      You’ve already said you intend to stay at your current job through the end of the season, but in the meantime, see if you can find a grief counselor or support group to visit. I didn’t talk much about my grief as it was happening, and I wish I had. Finding someone to talk to might help you to sort out your feelings about your personal life as well as helping you figure out what kind of professional change you might want to make.

      Whatever you decide to do, you’ve got the support of the AAM crew.

  41. EnobyPro*

    So I just got fired from my job (long story that I’d rather not get into, but it was not meeting a performance metric). I did see it coming, and kickstarted my job search as soon as I saw the signs that I was going to be let go. I’m really struggling with the idea that no one will want to hire me after I’ve been fired, especially since some applications now ask you to explain the reason you were fired. I was wondering if any readers have had experience with being hired again after being fired from a job. I could use some encouragement as I’m applying for jobs that my career is not over.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I wasn’t fired, but I walked off my last job and knew I couldn’t get a good reference. I thought I was doomed. But I went to a temp agency and got a contract gig for a few months and I found a new permanent job in three months. I think the key thing is being honest about what happened and if you are asked prodding questions, you need to be ready to explain it in a neutral manner. I think interviewers know that things go wrong, but they want to know that you handled it well and hold no grudges.

      1. EnobyPro*

        Yeah, that’s the standard advice. I’m really worried because right now, it’s hard to talk about the firing without choking up. I think I can frame it in a way that shows I’ve learned my lesson and won’t make the mistake again, but it’ll take a lot of practice to not cry while I talk about it. I just feel so ashamed mostly.

        1. August*

          Ooooh, that’s the worst, I’m so sorry! When I had some difficulties with my manager, I was great at writing out the problems in a neutral, rational way– but then when I had to look someone in the eyes and talk about it, I would get so ashamed that I even needed help dealing with my manager that I would dissolve into tears. Do you have any close family members or friends who would agree to sit down and talk it out with you? That way you could get practice at telling someone, without worrying about choking up during an interview.

        2. Blue Eagle*

          How about writing the answer out. Then take a couple of days away from it, then edit it so that it reads in a more neutral fashion. I have found that if you get it down on paper (i.e. the particular words that you want to use), and read it to yourself a couple of times, it is easier to talk about it with less emotion seeping in. Hope this helps you.

          1. EnobyPro*

            That’s probably what I’ll do. I’ve been using my bullet journal for writing out things I need to say, among other things, and hand-writing it seems to help me be able to get the words out without being flustered.

    2. LKW*

      I got fired but I had already found a new job. I was laid off and I got rehired at a place I had worked previously (the job that hired me before I was fired).

      Your career is far from over. Maybe you need a job that measures you differently. Just acknowledge that what you do well and what that company needed from you were not well aligned. You have skills, they just weren’t the skills that company needed.

      1. EnobyPro*

        “You have skills, they just weren’t the skills that company needed.”

        Thank you so much for saying this. This is exactly what I’m afraid of, that being fired means I’m worthless and can’t contribute to a workplace at all in any meaningful way. I know I can, but the way I felt at that job was basically if I couldn’t click a mouse fast enough without my wrist being in pain, I can’t do anything useful at all.

    3. JHunz*

      I got my current position after a firing. I had performance problems because I had totally lost motivation due to hating the work and being at BEC stage with both of my managers (two at the same time with different priorities, which was a huge part of the problem). In interviews, if I was asked about it, I calmly explained that I wasn’t at my best in that workplace due to having to deal with multiple managers competing for priorities.

      A couple years later, the hiring manager for my current position told me in a conversation that he had had major reservations about hiring someone who had just been fired, but that the way I was honest and calm about it convinced him to take a chance. Practice the explanation with a friend or two before you go out for real interviews. It sucks, but it’s not the end of the world.

    4. Espeon*

      In order, my last three jobs – I got fired for not hitting targets any more because I’d burned out (then took a four month break before even job hunting), quit without notice because it went from a nice place to work to toxic as hell in the space of six months and I was losing my sanity (took a six month break before even job hunting), left after five months after knowing by the second day that I wanted out and then started having panic attacks on the way to work (was already job hunting, two months between leaving and starting the job I’m at now).

      Don’t you worry! Do you want to work for someone who doesn’t understand that these things happen anyway? Being secure in your reasons and calm and self-assured in the delivery is all you need for a sensible employer.

      1. Not My Usual Name*

        When I got terminated, one of my first reactions was the shock of “How am I going to explain this?” I found it got easier as the notice period went on and I had interviews to practise in. I didn’t come straight out with saying I had been terminated though.

    5. Joanne*

      I was fired from my job in January 2018 – literally five days after the New Year. I didn’t see it coming but in hindsight I should have – doing a lot of busy work, the section not knowing what they wanted and changing direction on a whim, not interacting with the staff unless the staff initiated it and even then, it was things like “how was your weekend”, etc.

      I framed it as “The contract ended, and my position was unfortunately made redundant” and left it at that. If your position was a contract position, you could explain it as “the contract ended and I was not needed” if it was for the federal government.

      I’m sure you’ll find something!

      1. JHunz*

        I would really recommend not lying about a redundancy. If they have any way to check a reference at the position you were fired from you’ll be culled from consideration just for that.

        1. EnobyPro*

          Yeah, I want to be as honest as possible. I don’t think I handled the firing very well, because I couldn’t even pull myself together enough to ask what will be said about me if someone happens to call my old job to ask about me. So I will assume the worst and be as honest as possible when going for interviews.

        2. Joanne*

          I wasn’t lying about the redundancy. My former company was the subcontracting company and I was in a junior position while the prime contractor looked for someone to fill my position. A lot of what I was doing was busy work – creating manuals for new hires, setting up meeting spaces, and really not doing what my job was supposed to be. I think I did something like 5 meetings total but a lot of it was training (which is understandable) and then busy work.

          The day before I was fired the prime contractor had found someone to fill my position, I was called into my company headquarters and told “Your writing isn’t what the client is looking for” and was let go.

          When I asked for references, HR said that they usually just confirm the person worked there from these days (e.g. Person A worked here from Jan. 2017-May 2017).

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Someone will hire you.

      Typically, I have seen the advice offered, “I was let go for x reason. I now realize that I need to do a, b and c. I have learned my lesson and I am able to prevent that from happening again.”

      You will probably find people saying, “oh, we don’t measure performance that way!” or “Wow. That is high. If you do 50% of that we’d love you and keep you.”
      In other cases some places are known for their training. “Teapots Inc trained you? We don’t care if they fired you for not doing 1000 teapots and hour and you only did 995. We want you. We want 50 teapots and hour is that okay?”

      I changed fields. My last boss, who was not management material, offered me a demotion or the door. To her surprise I took the door. She falsified information to show I was not doing the job. I actually was, but I was not going to put up with all the lying. My next bosses never once asked me what happened to the old job. Well, one boss knew it was a bad place because her daughter worked there and she quit. The other bosses did not care at all.
      This is something that routinely surprises me. Other employers KNOW who the bad employers are. Perhaps your old company has this rep, also.

      1. Lora*

        Yes, this.

        At CurrentJob: Who did you work with most at NightmareFactory?
        Me: Uh, well, I was supposed to be working with Awesome OldGuy, which I was really excited about because he has so much great experience and I was really looking forward to learning from him, but shortly after I joined they re-organized and had me working with Ken.
        CurrentJob: Ken…Ken A-hole?
        Me: Yes.
        CurrentJob: You know he got fired, right? We had a lot of people who left to work at NightmareFactory and came back a week later saying they couldn’t work with Ken A-hole. We know how he is. So at NextJob…

        Caveat: this may be endemic to your region or your field. When I worked in a certain Midwestern state, and where I grew up, unemployment was relatively high and bosses didn’t have to be nice or even behave within the confines of the law to be confident that if you didn’t want the job there’d be lots more who did. Where I live now, unemployment has been fairly low even through the Recession, and there’s a hotbed of industry in a city that has absolutely no sense of humor about regulatory requirements, and the combination means that working conditions are more likely to be half decent.

  42. Overeducated*

    When you’re waiting on a written offer, how often is too often to check in with HR? I asked Monday, was told “Monday or Tuesday at the latest,” and…still no offer. I did speak with them on another matter yesterday and the HR person *asked* if I’d received the offer yet, but didn’t offer an updated timeline when I said I hadn’t. Hiring manager has very clearly let me know I’m the person they want for the job, but the offer has to come from HR, and hiring manager happens to be on vacation this week.

    (Got rejected from the other job I was waiting to hear back from, so now I’m getting VERY antsy because all my eggs are in this basket. Yes, I know I should try to lay some new ones, but it’s hard to be motivated when someone says “your job offer is on the way”!)

    1. WellRed*

      If the HR person asked if you received the offer, but they are supposed to send you the offer, shouldn’t they know you haven’t received the offer?

      1. Overeducated*

        I wondered that too…I naively hoped she would think, “oh, I wonder why she didn’t receive it, let me make sure to follow up and get it to her,” but that hasn’t happened and I don’t know if it would be too pushy to call again. Probably a moot point as it’s almost the end of the day Friday.

  43. polkadotteacup*

    just an update from last week… I’m done with my first week as a TA. It has been a lot of fun so far; my students are curious and inquisitive, and the labs that I had to do have been going pretty well. So far the students have not really had any trouble, so they just ask me random extension questions. But man, 2 hour lectures are so long! I don’t know how I did it when I was in college. Thanks for all the encouragement last week. <3

    1. Jillociraptor*

      That’s so great. I loved working with students when I worked in higher ed, even the sometimes irritating parts. My partner is a TA and he teaches two, back-to-back, 2-hour sessions, which honestly just seems like a human rights violation (for him and the students).

      If I’m remembering correctly, you also had a concern about the lab manager for your course, right? I hope everything is going well on that front too!

      1. polka*

        OP on mobile here. Yeah I was a bit anxious in that front but so far nothing remarkable has happened on that front, so I’m counting that as a win. :)

    2. DrWombat*

      Huzzah re the curious students! I hope things continue to go well – lab TAing can be really fun (some of my craziest TA stories are from a lab course I TAed because it involved so much hands-on stuff). Just remember that you can ask the professor for backup if needed – you’re working for them but they are supposed to have your back, too (like if a student pitches a fit about the rubric used for grading, or similar). Best of luck!

  44. Goya de la Mancha*

    Work “Uniforms”

    Not employer mandated ones, but “this is what I wear to work everyday like Mark Zuckerberg” type. I’ve been working on intentionally becoming more minimal, and have purged things down in my life to the essentials – except my work clothes. Bringing the rest of my life to a more minimal style has been very freeing and I’m loving the idea of waking up, not having to decide what to wear. I just can’t get over the feeling that this is only something the big names can get away with. If you do this, what is your “uniform”, do you have some do’s/don’ts for someone who’s starting this? How was this perceived in your job when you started it?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I’ve gone to a fairly strict color palate, so it’s pretty easy to just blindly reach into my closet and immediately have a matching outfit. It’s a matter of “is it cold enough outside to need a heavier sweater or is the lighter weight buttondown sufficient”.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        I should note everything is varying cuts/styles within the color scheme I’ve devised. Just makes being half asleep and trying to get dressed easier. Also cuts down on the number of shoes I need to own.

      2. JeanB in NC*

        For a long time, I only bought work clothes in black, white, and grey. (I saw a movie once where the main character did that and I liked the idea.) That way you don’t have to worry about it – everything goes together. You could throw in a colorful accent once in a while, but no real need to. It’s the next best thing to a uniform (which I would actually like a lot).

        1. Ejane*

          I like this a lot. My roommate teases me for the number of white shirts I have, but they’re all very different: this one is a classic oxford, that one has a pussy bow, the one next to it has larger sleeves that make me feel like a pirate, and I need the one I just bought, get off my back, I didn’t have one with ruffles.

          I find fit and cut much more visually interesting than busy colors. I’m also very pale with almost-black hair, so it’s a fun way to make the rest of me high-contrast.

    2. Snark*

      I think “uniforms” end up being kind of weird, honestly, when it turns into the same thing every day, and unless you’re a big name, I think it comes off a little oddly.

      My approach is for all my work clothes to basically work together. My pants are in two shades of gray, a grayish-tan taupe, and two shades of brown. My shirts are (dominant color) blue, green, dark red, or purple, with sweaters in black, gray, purple, or blue as an option. My shoes – actually chukka boots – are dark brown or caramel. I can basically grab any shirt, any pants, and any shoes, and they all work okay together even if, say, I really like my eggplant sweater with charcoal pants.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        This is like my wardrobe. Pants and skirts are in grey, brown, and black. Tops are traditional so they don’t go out of style, but are still in interesting colors. I have cardigans and blazers that can be mixed and matched. I focus on having well fitting clothes instead of being in style. Classy all the way.

      2. periwinkle*

        After a closet purge a couple years ago, most of my trousers and work-suitable jeans are black, dark gray, or navy blue; tops/sweaters tend toward darker jewel tones plus grays and blues. Shoes and ankle boots are all black, eggplant, or dark green. Now I can get dressed in the dark and still look fine as long as I’ve managed to put the sweater on the right way around (no guarantee since I love cowl and mock-turtle necklines). It’s one less thing to fuss about.

        My casual wardrobe is not quite so uniform-y, but it was nevertheless weeded down to a smaller collection that works fine if you grab items at random. I leave the wild colors/patterns for my socks.

    3. HannahS*

      I honestly doubt most people would notice or care. The truth is, many people do a version of this–someone might wear khakis and a button down every day, or a dress and a cardigan, or whatever. If you’re concerned about people noticing and don’t want to do the whole fashionable “capsule wardrobe” thing, choose one outfit in various neutral colour palettes. If you want inspiration, you can google “capsule wardrobe” and see if you like some of the suggestions. If you do really want to wear exactly the same thing every day, choose something neutral if you want to blend in, and buy lots of copies so that you’re not constantly doing laundry.

      1. KB*

        I agree, I doubt people would notice unless you are in a particularly clothing-focused industry / culture where looking slick is a big deal.

        I do a version of colour-palette wardrobe, except my colour pallet is “bright” so I still tend to blithely combine almost any top and bottom (and other pieces) unless they are almost the same colour, but not quite.

    4. CheeryO*

      I think you can keep things extremely simple without going ultra-minimalist. I have a lot of tops, but I put almost zero thought into my wardrobe because I just cycle through crewneck sweaters (in the winter) or sleeveless/short sleeved tops with a neutral cardigan (in warmer weather). I have a few pairs of jeans and two pairs of dress pants, two pairs of flats, and two pairs of booties.

    5. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      No advice because I don’t do this – but MAN I miss wearing scrubs to work. This getting dressed and looking professional every day thing is for the birds.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        Agreed. My boss veto’d the whole “wearing a track suit” to work when I suggested getting matching ones for the whole department, so I guess I’ll have to adult…

    6. Eye of Sauron*

      I guess it depends on how rigid you mean by ‘uniform’? If you will only be wearing black pants with identical green shirts, then yeah it could come across as odd.

      My work uniform consists of :

      Black pants (I have 3 styles, but generally buy multiples within the styles, so imagine 2 each of each style all very similar in cut)
      Tops: Gauzy/silky (with cami or long sleeve layer underneath) bright colored patterned, Gauzy/silky black and white patterned, White cotton or linen button down.
      Sweaters:
      Winter- black, white, gray, burgundy cardigan -wool or cashmere
      Summer- White or light colored cotton/silk/linen cardigan
      Fun patterned wool socks (winter)
      Shoes
      Winter: Black Mary Jane 3″ heel leather
      Summer: black summer weight Mary Jane (3″ heel) or black nice heeled sandal
      If needed- Black blazer

      The only thing that gets rotated on a regular basis are the blouses. I generally buy trendy ones inexpensively each season and rotate out the ones I’m tired of. Most are long sleeve which work in the summer and winter with an adjustment to the under layer. Sweaters are classic cuts and colors, so can be worn multiple years until they start to show wear.

      I think for me I just naturally ended up with this uniform, it wasn’t anything I tried to do, but it happened because I’m drawn to the same comfort level and style.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        I’d LIKE to do the whole several of the same top/bottoms, but that sounds like it’s out. I think I could swing the same color scheme look at the very least.

    7. LKW*

      Trousers – often black.
      Cardigan – often black
      Shirt – usually a color.

      I try to mix it up but when I’m travelling I need to pack quickly and it’s easy if I know everything works with everything else. It’s like I’ve built a personalized adult garanamials wardrobe.

      1. Eye of Sauron*

        Oh yes the traveling. I used to wear colors in the brown family. Right up until the first time I forgot to pack brown shoes for my work trip.

        Nope… never again, I’ve systematically eliminated all browns from my wardrobe.

    8. Just Jess*

      I don’t have a strict uniform since I like changing up outfits, but I do have a stylish formula that I usually use.

      Pants: three to five pairs of dark gray pants with one or two being heavier materials for cold weather
      Shirts: three to five white collar, button down shirts (three of these are the exact same shirt), and two or three light gray collar, button down shirts.
      Shoes: one pair of black or brown dress boots (captoe or wingtip), one pair of black shoes (clean toe, captoe, or wingtip), one pair of dark brown shoes (clean toe, captoe, wingtip)
      Sweaters: one gray crew or V neck and one gray turtleneck
      Belt: reversible black/brown belt
      Jacket: one gray wool jacket and two cheap, light gray jackets

      Do’s and Don’ts
      I get bored with this and have other old and newer pieces in my closet for work. However, 1) it definitely reduced the amount of time I spend coordinating an outfit and 2) there are so many shades of gray (50?) that I don’t actually look boring. Use colorful accessories.

      I’ve gotten rid of most of the old stuff that was giving me a headache to coordinate. Don’t be afraid of fast, cheap fashion if that’s all you can afford and if you are just trying out a work wardrobe. Don’t worry about buying everything at once; you can probably get two pairs of pants (plus tailoring the pants) and three shirts for under $200 to start by shopping thrift stores and fast fashion (H&M, Old Navy, Uniqlo etc). Start really investing once you know which looks you’re going for.

      1. Eye of Sauron*

        We should never stand next to each other at work… nobody would know where one of us ended and the other began :)

        1. Just Jess*

          I’m totally indistinguishable from a giant flaming eye tower.

          Goya de la Mancha, take this as evidence that a basic wardrobe does kinda sorta exist…But wait, Eye of Sauron, don’t you go with black bottoms rather than gray ones?

    9. Joielle*

      I basically do this. Every day I wear a pencil skirt, a v-neck blouse, a blazer, and black pumps. All of my skirts and blazers are grey or black, and shirts are black/white/grey or a combination. So it’s just a matter of black skirt/grey blazer, or grey skirt/black blazer, and then whatever shirt I grab. It’s great! Nobody cares or has even noticed, as far as I can tell. But it’s not like I’m wearing the exact same thing every day either. (Although honestly, even if I did wear the same thing every day, I don’t think anyone would care as long as it was clean.)

    10. Lora*

      I do this with clothes I buy: neutral pants/skirt, neutral jacket, blouse may be neutral or color (but the only colors I really had were blue and burgundy). Then a friend who was cleaning out her closet gave me a bunch of work-appropriate dresses, so now I just grab whichever of those is clean, one of the approximately 56401561 neutral blazers/sweaters I own and black or brown tights. The dresses are mostly neutral too. I don’t think anyone has ever noticed, to tell you the truth.

      The big thing for me is that I can’t have white blouses. I had a great many white blouses at one point, and the sad fact is either the armpits get yellowy or somehow gross no matter how diligently I wash/dry clean, or I spill tomatoes/coffee on it. White blouses, however neatly they go with all my other clothing, do me no favors. Used to have a pair of light tan pants too, and those got destroyed in record time. They were pretty cute, too. Dark colors for the win.

      I have my closet strictly divided into Work Clothes and Anywhere Else Clothes. Guess which shelves the cats prefer to sleep in.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        Obviously the work clothes, but only on the ones opposite their fur color. Just like my yellow lab only leans against my legs when I’m wearing black pants.

        1. Lora*

          The black cats, owing to the sheer number of black clothes I have, prefer to lay on the red and green bedspread and rarely go in the closet. The mackerel tabby cats have the best choice of hiding places…

        2. Grandma Mazur*

          We have a tuxedo cat and a ginger cat. There is literally no colour of work clothing I can wear that cat hairs don’t show up on.

    11. Candy*

      I have a uniform but no one really realizes it: my secret to getting ready quickly every morning yet always looking “put together” is that I only wear dresses — all day, every day, even during my non-work hours. It’s a uniform in the sense that every dress I buy looks good with black tights, black ankle boots, and a cardigan (or bare legs and mary-janes in summer). I have well over 200 dresses (I’ve been collecting vintage since I was a teenager and I hardly throw anything out) but the process of deciding what to wear is incredibly simple — I don’t need to make sure x shirt matches y pants which match z shoes to make a complete outfit (I’m exhausted just thinking about that) — all I have to do is grab one piece of clothing every morning, which requires little to no thought at all.

    12. a-no*

      I found that people started noticing I was wearing the same 5 outfits every week, so what my wardrobe consists of is black and grey pants, black grey and colored blouses. To mix it up I have 4 blazers – 2 black (different styles) a bright red one and a mid-tone grey one. My work sweaters are all black or grey with 1 colored one (my winter one is burgundy, summer is darkish blue that goes with all the jewel tone blouses I wear).
      It is a little larger than a minimalist wardrobe but it’s under 20 pieces and most people don’t even realize its that small due to the combo’s I can make out of it. It’s amazing to get up, select a pants, pick a shirt at random and either pick a sweater/blazer at random or choose my bold sweater/blazers. Takes under 30 seconds to pick my outfit for the day as 95% of my clothes go together without thought. Or at times I make a bunch of outfits on Sunday hang them on one hanger and just blindly pick one in the morning and that’s what I am wearing.
      My biggest tip is only buy things you can return. Take them home and try them on with different combos and make sure it’s versatile enough it fits with the majority (80%+) of your current wardrobe. If it doesn’t, back to the store it goes.

    13. DDJ*

      Google “capsule wardrobe.” Or “ten items ten ways.” I finally sorted through my closet and put together a winter work capsule and I’m really enjoying it! It’s more like having a uniform, but isn’t as rigid.
      Current capsule:
      2 pairs pants: one black, one grey
      2 long, warm cardigans: one black, one purple
      1 blazer: black
      5 tops: 4 with purple accents that match the purple sweater, varying styles/sleeve lengths/patterns; 1 black and white polka dot that’s a little more neutral

      If I pick out a pair of pants, a top, and a sweater or blazer, it all goes together. But it’s 30 outfits. If you like skirts, throw a skirt in and maybe get rid of one of the tops. Or have 11 items instead of 10. Add in some accents (scarves, jewelry).

      I’m working on paring down my wardrobe to be made up of several different “capsules” for the different seasons so that it’s not wearing the same things all the time forever. Plus, when you put away a capsule for the season and then bring it out again when that season rolls around, it’s like having a new wardrobe. I was just going through my spring wardrobe and I’m excited to start wearing some of those things again.

      And then I just push everything that’s not current to the sides of my closet and keep the current capsule front and center. Easy peasy.

    14. Ten*

      I don’t have a single “uniform”, but I do have several standby combinations; I wear some iteration of ‘black slacks, jade blouse, grey cardigan’ about once a week. I’ve noticed coworkes who do the same thing. As long as what you’re wearing is clean and appropriate, I’m pretty sure no one cares.

    15. Oxford Coma*

      I started doing this unintentionally. I gained a lot of weight due to some major life crises piled on top of each other, and I was too angry about it and too cheap to buy more than a few replacement items.

      I bought three pairs of the exact same black pants. I only wear black flats, black business heels, or black knee boots. In the winter I have 6 sweaters that I rotate, and in the summer I have 6 buttondowns that I rotate. I do not wear jewelry, scarves, or other accessories ever.

      Not a single person has commented. (Oddly I am weirdly observant myself and notice other people doing something similar, but I say nothing and merely admire them for it.)

    16. ronda*

      i feel like men do this without question.

      I do think some people will notice, & different offices have different standards, so I think it is very office specific.

    17. Kelly*

      I wear black/gray/navy 90% of the time. Occasionally I throw in a burgundy or Kelly green. Apparently I do it often enough that when I came in today in a floral pattern blouse, that is black, pale orange, pale pink, I had no less than five people stop and comment on it (insert eye roll). Guess people notice when you DON’T wear your uniform as well.
      Kelly

  45. Lily Rowan*

    Hi,
    I was hoping for some advice on how to deal with co-workers who get mad/upset/passive aggressive when I need to miss work. It’s very rare when I need to call in sick (maybe one day every quarter, if that) but every time I’m gone, I get attitude about it, or comments implying I wasn’t actually sick. I am the receptionist, and I know it’s a chore for my one co-worker to handle the phone calls (and I always let her know I appreciate her working extra for me), but I just don’t understand why she gets so angry with me for getting sick. I missed work Wednesday, and when I returned Thursday, multiple coworkers made a point to tell me how upset she was, and how she complained all day about it. I just don’t know what to do.

    1. BadPlanning*

      Maybe suggest that you have more than one backup? So if you are out Coworker1 does AM and Coworker2 does PM? Maybe “sharing the pain” will make her less grumpy?

    2. Kj*

      I think you ignore it. People get sick. She can complain, but you still get sick and that is just that. You aren’t getting sick at her and your sickness is far from excessive. Tell other people you don’t want to hear about it. Why are they telling you? You were sick, not off on a fun trip to a tropical paradise (although you have a right to take days for that too- what do they do when you are out on vacation?)

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Right? You could always respond “Well, I would have gladly let her have my bout with a stomach bug and answered the phones instead.” And just walk away. People aren’t robots; they get sick.

    3. Nanc*

      Well, point out to her that you’ve spent months and months researching what actions you could take that would piss her off the most and worked hard at implementing said actions at the times which would most inconvenience her and you hope the level of inconvenience x number of occurrences = a top-level KPI and will be rewarded during your annual performance review. Be sure to list all the other employees who contributed to Project Piss Off Prissy in the Most Egregious Way Possible so they can take credit to.

      Prissy is an unprofessional ass. I’m sure you’re other co-workers and the folks coming into reception are thankful you keep your germy self at home.

      You could make a point of thanking her for covering while you’re sick and if your co-workers report her complaints say something around if she’s concerned about having to cover she should talk to her/your manager and see what other options might be implemented.

      You did nothing wrong. And I am always cranky about folks being scolded for daring to be ill which is why my answer is longer than your question.

      Harumph!

      You did nothin

      1. LKW*

        This. Reinforce however possible that you intentionally got sick to inconvenience her. Specifically her. That you do this to make her life difficult. Because that’s how you operate.

    4. Havarti*

      She can be upset all she wants. If it bothers her that bad, why hasn’t she gone to the boss to find someone else to cover for you? You could try talking to your boss if you think it’s worth it to maybe find someone who is less of a martyr. Otherwise, I’d be tempted to ignore it. Thank her for covering on such short notice and then let it go. As for the coworkers, why are they playing messenger? What do they want you to do about it? If it’s just to make you feel guilty, that’s not cool.

      Your responses can vary from bland “I’m sorry to hear she was upset. Anyway [subject change]” to the mildly puzzled “Ok…? Anyway [subject change]” to the more sarcastic “Yeah it sucks you can’t schedule an illness. Wouldn’t that be neat? Anyway [subject change].” to the frostily polite “If she has a problem with it, she can talk to me or boss about it.” It all depends on how well you know these people and what they best respond to.

    5. LCL*

      I’m going to channel my mom again. Wow, twice in one week.
      She’s mad? So what. It’s not up to you to do anything about it, except continue to treat her professionally. As for coworkers, when they make a point of stirring the pot, ask them ‘why are you telling me this? They may respond ‘I thought you would like to know.’ You respond again ‘why would I like to know? Does that prevent me from being sick next time?’

    6. ContentWrangler*

      Your coworker is being super unreasonable. And honestly, the rest of your coworkers aren’t doing much better, making a point to pass on her complaints. You’re a human being. You’re going to get sick occasionally. It sounds like you’re already conscientious enough to recognize you’re being out causing extra work for her but that’s just what happens when coworkers provide cover. I don’t think you should feel obligated to do anything but if you really wanted to, I guess you could approach your manager and ask if there’s any other way to handle your sick days. Perhaps getting more coverage options will make this person whine less.

    8. Natalie*

      You might consider responding to your multiple coworkers who are passing on her complaints. “Why are you telling me this?” “I don’t really need to a Jane Complaint Report today, thanks!” Something like that.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Eh, if it’s worth it to you why not say, “Gee, Jane you mention this often. I think we should request a meeting with the boss and the three of us sit down and figure out what to do here.”

      She’ll say no. If she mentions it again, “Jane, offer is still good. We can do that sit-down.”

    10. Lily Rowan*

      Thanks everyone! It really helped to hear that she’s the one in the wrong, she had really gotten me feeling guilty!
      I will definitely bring up the idea of a backup cover with my manager, that is excellent and practical!

  46. Fabulous*

    I don’t know if anyone else is in the Midwest US, but we’re getting dumped with snow. A lot of people I know got snow days, but my office rarely (if ever) closes. I don’t have a laptop either to work from home if I wanted. So, I’m in the office today staring out the window at the snow accumulations… it’s probably up to about 4-5 inches already (a little deceiving since they plowed the parking lot this morning…) In any case, this afternoon’s commute home is gonna SUCK!

    On a good note, I hit 40 hours at 9am this morning so I could technically go home at any point today and be fine.

    1. Snark*

      I’m on the front range of Colorado. We’re gonna get two whole inches tomorrow. That’s more than we’ve seen at once all season.

    2. k.k*

      I’m with you! My husband got to work from home today, so I have the added mental image of him on the couch in pjs with our dogs (and laptop, I know he’s actually working), while my car is being buried in the parking lot. On the up side, my office doesn’t have windows so I don’t have to actively watch my car being buried in the parking lot.

      1. Fabulous*

        Ha! I’m a little jealous on that front. My car is literally right outside my window. I can tell it’s gonna be a bitch to dig out already…

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      Midwest here, too. We got about 8 inches overnight. But I’m lucky enough to be able to remote connect to my work computer from home, so I’m in my apartment right now, doing the work.

      I may bake cookies for lunch.

      Can you preemptively scrape your car windshield a couple times so it’s not one massive chore at the end of the day?

    4. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Oh dog, I shoveled something like 6 inches about 10am and there another 2-3 now. (I’m horrible at estimating how much snow we got though, so it’s probably way more. I don’t actually want to know.) At least I’m working from home.

      If you’re ok on hours and generally can, just go home before it gets worse. Guarantee you that emergency services would rather have everyone home than on the roads getting into accidents.

    5. Slartibartfast*

      Took today off work 3months ago to go to a concert. Not going to make it because of the snow. I think the universe hates me.

    6. Middle School Teacher*

      So, schools in Canada hardly ever get snow days. We’ve had probably a foot of snow this week, and it’s been around -20C without wind chill… no snow days. Indoor recess every day. It’s been awful. I would LOVE a snow day.

      (Some rural schools will have kids stay home if buses can’t make it, but teachers are still expected to come in.)

  47. MissDissplaced*

    To those who work in communication or social media.
    Your job likely involves spending a lot of time online: researching or posting.
    Do you ever get those feelings of guilt that you are somehow “slacking” becsuse you spend so much time online?

    Maybe it’s a little bit of imposter syndrome, but I do. But also I have worked places where the executive’s idea of social media strategy was to simply retweet or dash off a comment, and that it only took, like 5 minutes, and why was I wasting so much time.

    1. perpetuallytired*

      Imposter syndrome for sure.

      Social media strategy is more than a simple retweet or a comment. If anyone questions you, tell them it’s about being able to commuicate to the right audience and strategizing how those communication channels will be most effective within severe limitations. In other words, use big words that scare the bigwigs.

      1. MissDissplaced*

        Lol! True, they love big, jargon words!
        I guess I’ve just had some very clueless bosses. I don’t anymore, but that feeling still happens. I think with social media work, it’s more pronounced. And social is really only about 1/4 of my job duties.

    2. Buffy*

      You could also mentally frame it as “bench marking”. I work in communications for a university and I definitely spend some time every week looking at what other universities are doing, seeing what makes an impact.

    3. a girl has no name*

      Oh yes for sure. I also worry that my coworkers will think I am slacking. Don’t stress about it. Every single thing I have ever learned about communications is that it is done best through a ton of researching and writing. It is so important to make sure you know your audience, your stuff is relevant and tailor made. Just remember this is crucial for your job. I get these feelings sometimes, but when I get good results that feeling goes away!

    4. mAd Woman*

      I head up a digital marketing dept in an ad agency. Even in the agency, there is a lack of knowledge about social media marketing and other teams will make barbed comments about how we’re slackers. Another part of that is my team is all under 30 but the other teams are all over 30 so there’s some ageism towards youngsters.
      My best advice is lean on your metrics. If you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are making an impact on the bottom line, you will get respect.

  48. Driving School Dropout*

    Reality check/venting: I work as an engineer in a heavily male-dominated division of my company. I am a woman in my mid-30s. Most of the engineers are men older than me. Several of them had lunch together the other day. As the group walked in the door, Fergus said “Women!” in an eye-roll tone. My office is by the door and I heard him but we couldn’t see each other. Another woman, Jane, was in the hall and lightly inquired “women what?”. It turns out that at lunch there had been a discussion of the recent spate of sexual assualt accusations. Fergus started talking to Jane about Steve Wynn, and what a shame it was that he had been driven out of a company he worked hard to build over (heavy emphasis) allegations of sexual assault. Jane sort of mmm-hmmed – she’s much younger than him and junior in position. I was unsure if I should break in until Fergus started to talk about Harvey Weinstein and how he was driven out over that one actress who seems really troubled. That was too much for me. I walked out into the hallway and looked directly at Fergus and he said “uh-oh”. I was concerned that I would lose my cool so I didn’t want to debate the issue. I said that this was a difficult conversation, I wasn’t interested in hearing it and I’d appreciate if he’d wrap it up. Fergus sort of chuckled and said “okay, okay” but then he paused and said “I just wonder why all these allegations are coming up *now*”. I said as calmy as I could that this sort of thing has been happening for a long time but women finally feel like they will be taken seriously. He agreed, then started in with a “but…” and I cut him off and said I was serious that it’s a fraught conversation for a lot of people and I wanted him to at least take it out of the hallway. He was condescending and definitely humoring me, but he agreed to do that. I was furious. I still am. I want to do something more, but I think the situation is resolved as best it can be, right? I shut the conversation down without losing my cool. He’s not my manager, he is a higher-level specialist with no direct reports. He is very well-connected to higher level management, so he’s not one to tangle with lightly. He’s an oblivious ass, but I can’t fix that.

    1. Thlayli*

      I think you handled it perfectly. He’s an idiot and an ass but I don’t think making comments like he did would be enough justification to fire him in most organisations, so I don’t think there’s much to be gained by doing anything else. Perhaps HR might be willing to have a word with him and let him know that talk like that is inappropriate, but I suspect it would fall on deaf ears and just make trouble between him and you.

      Also, I’m pretry impressed that the most sexist oaf in the company says “uh-oh” when he sees you! You go girl!

    2. BadPlanning*

      I think you handled it very well. It’s hard to literally step into a conversation like that and I think cutting off his “but” was definitely a good plan.

    3. Lora*

      Ugh. I think you handled it as well as anyone could.

      I am an Old, so I can tell the men to stop talking NOW and never speak of this in my presence again. At that point several of the married men and men who I was close with were able to tell the guy, “shut up before she makes you sleep on the couch, hur hur hur” which sucks on its own level but at least he’d STFU. When I was your age and everyone was older than me, yeah, it was a problem.

      Did he used to have reports? If so, this may be one reason why he doesn’t anymore.

      1. Driving School Dropout*

        He never had reports at this company. He came in as a sort of trouble-shooter specialist who does his own thing. I’m sure there’s going to be some “Dude, don’t say that in front of Driving School!”. I’d prefer “Dude, don’t say that in front of humans!” but at least there’s a possibility he’s realized that what he said is problematic even if he doesn’t really get why, and he’ll refrain from opining in the office. I’m an optimist!

        1. Lora*

          Unfortunately this is one instance where male allies are more helpful than anything you could say yourself. Have seen dudes like this change their behavior when a fellow man they respect or like explains it to them, but not when a woman says it, because…yeah.

    5. Natalie*

      Can you cover Fergus’s office in itching powder? Just for fun.

      (I have no actual helpful advice)

    6. Barney Barnaby*

      Harvey Weinstein had it written into his contract that he couldn’t be fired for sexual harassment and assault. He threw a reporter down a set of stairs. Seth McFarlane openly said at the Golden Globes that this stuff was going on.

      This was all “found out” because of investigative reporting (just like the Nassar case).

      I would have told him to get his facts right before forming an opinion. I also would have asked him why decades of cover-up and blacklisting were, to him, less worrisome than decades of people being silent about it.

      But I don’t play well with fools.

    7. J.B.*

      You are awesome for speaking up. If he has an ounce of sense, he’ll watch what he says in the future. And your younger colleague saw your example!

    8. Emmie*

      I am sorry you had to deal with this. You probably have to deal with a lot of “this” too. You handled it well, and he is an a**.

    9. BigSigh*

      I have a coworker I had almost the same conversation with last month! He kept emphasizing the “now” aspect. At first I tried to give him informative articles and have a real discussion. Does nothing and is pointless. Don’t talk about it at work. Period. That’s where we’re at now.

    10. dr_silverware*

      You’re good. Your purpose cannot be to resolve the situation such that the person at fault feels ashamed, knows they’re wrong, changes their ways, etc; that’s impossible and to measure your success against that standard would mean constant failure. You did incredibly well at a parallel, equally valuable purpose: show Jane and onlookers that you’re watching and supporting Jane, and you will step in.

      This chump seems like a condescending jerk no matter what you do, and it sounds like you handled it well and provided a valuable model for your younger coworker.

    12. Merida Ann*

      Uuugh. I’m so sorry for you.

      I had a somewhat similar incident not too long ago. I’m the only female engineer in my section and a few weeks ago I could vaguely hear some of my coworkers discussing Weinstein out in the hall. I had to go down the hall to get something from the printer and had to say “excuse me” to get past because they were all standing in a clump. After he stepped back, our draftsman, “Pete” said “Don’t worry, we won’t touch you,” right after I had passed him. Another guy made a sort of chiding sound, and Pete responded, “She doesn’t know what we’re talking about.” I was already down to the copy room and was far too taken aback to know what to say, but I was immediately mad and I’m still furious every time I think about it. I waited in the copy room for about a minute until they had all dispersed and gone back to their offices.

      I’ve never felt threatened by any of my coworkers before, even as the one woman in a department of 12, but Pete’s comments made me feel sick. First off, he should never, ever have made the first comment. It would never have occurred to me that my coworkers would even consider touching me, and the fact that he chose to bring it up just because I needed through the hall is really disturbing to me. Then, the follow up that I “didn’t know what they were talking about”???? Even if I hadn’t been able to overhear them in the hallway (although we all keep our office doors open), it’s not hard to link “don’t worry, we won’t touch you” to the current news. Frankly, “we won’t touch you” might have been *more* disturbing if I hadn’t known the context that brought it to his mind in the first place, so his condescending “she doesn’t know” comment is even more disturbing with that in mind.

      Uuuuugh, all of it just makes me so mad and creeps me out and I have not been able to think about Pete the same way since then. I hate it so much.

      1. Driving School Dropout*

        Sorry, that sucks. It’s one thing to know, in the abstract, that some people are dickbags. It’s another thing to find out that people you have to work with and might otherwise like just fine are dickbags. Uh, I wasn’t worried until you brought it up, Pete. Blechhh!

    13. Driving School Dropout*

      Thanks, everyone. I feel a lot better. In the moment, my action felt inadequate, but I know that Fergus suddenly becoming a more compassionate, enlightened human being wasn’t likely to happen no matter what I did. I’m glad I didn’t leave Jane to deal with it unsupported or let Fergus’s point of view stand unchallenged.
      Thanks for the kind and supportive words!

    14. beanie beans*

      Thank you for speaking up! I think you handled it well. I’m glad these conversations are starting to happen in a way where we can speak up, but it’s obvious we still have a loooooong way to go.

      Recently I overhead one of my coworkers say “Man, all these allegations are out of control!” My coworker said “Um, no, all this sexual harassment is out of control!” It still blows my mind that the mentality of a lot of people is still that the women speaking up are the problem.

    15. ..Kat..*

      Fergus, if you keep your clothes on, don’t grab coworkers bodies, and keep your p*nis to yourself, you’ll be fine.

  49. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

    Question for everyone – at what point can I start leaving the date off of my college degree on my resume? I feel like it’s generally too soon (I’ve been in the work force for almost 10 years), but I think it might help my resume make a bit more sense.

    I graduated into the recession. Bounced around for the first 4-5 years, though luckily had no gaps – for this reason I’ve left every job I’ve had on my resume. Then the last 5-6 years I’ve had a more stable and logical career trajectory. At this point the first five years don’t add much value (and they make me look pretty job hoppy – but it was a startup that went bust, a long-term temp assignment, then a poor choice I made out of desperation for benefits/left after a year) so I’d like to start leaving them off. I don’t want to have graduation date, 4 year gap, then work experience.

    Should I just leave the graduation date off?

    1. C.*

      I don’t think you ever can – it’s such a standard thing to have on resumes that at best employers will think you didn’t proofread and left it off by mistake and at worst that you’re hiding something.

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        I have disagree that you always have it on the resume. I review resumes fairly frequently and I have seen quite a few without it, but they they have always been for folks with 20+ yrs of experience (and do seem to skew female, fwiw). It’s never been an issue with any of the hiring managers I’ve worked with if they were interested in these people.

        Though, I guess maybe that answers my own question – at the 20 year mark.

      3. ArtK*

        There’s this thing called “age discrimination.” Leaving it on forever is a great way to get yourself out of the job market. My BS was in 1981 — 37 years ago. Totally irrelevant to any job I might do today. That date is *not* on my resume. I’m finishing a master’s degree this year and am debating about whether to keep the date on (look somewhat younger) or leave it off.

        1. Warrior Jeans*

          It doesn’t make you look younger, it just makes you look like you’re hiding something. Leaving it on is a great way to get your resume dropped to the bottom of the pile.

      4. Ask a Manager* Post author

        It’s super, super normal to leave the graduation year off. The majority of candidates I see don’t include it anymore once they’re 10+ years out from graduation.

    2. Fabulous*

      Sounds like we’re probably same age. I keep the dates on mine, though I’ve taken off the first couple jobs I had right out of college (because they no longer fit nor reflect my experience or field). I also went back to grad school later on, so it helps tell the story.

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Has anyone ever asked you what you were doing between graduating and the first job on your resume?

        1. Fabulous*

          I’ve actually never been asked that question. I imagine they probably assume I was doing something unrelated, or realize that there just isn’t room to name everything. But during the “tell me about yourself” question I usually mention a bit about my transition from college to working.

      2. GriefBacon*

        Same here. I graduated 10 years ago and I leave my dates on. Partially because I look younger than I am, but mostly because I also graduated in the recession and worked what random (mostly retail) jobs I could find for my first 6ish years out of college. My experience level is closer to that of someone 5 years younger, so I like to make it clear that I’m older than my experience makes me seem.

        Because my full resume makes me look like a job hopper (in the past 4 years I left one job intentionally, got laid off from another, and had my position cut due to funding shortage from a third), I start with a “Relevant Experience” section that goes in depth, and then include an “Additional Professional Experience” section that just lists title/company/dates/location. That way, I don’t have gaps, but I also don’t treat those initial jobs like they matter all that much.

        1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

          Hmmm – the age thing is a concern of mine too. I’m female and also also appear younger than I am. I like the idea of dividing up the experience into Relevant and Additional. Maybe that will de-emphasize those other roles enough that the lengths won’t seem all that important, but enough to show consistency.

    3. meesh8910*

      i have had my date off since I started my second job after 3 years of work experience. I found it was easier to leverage to a higher job rank without calling attention to how old I am :) I say take it off!

    4. King Friday XIII*

      I started leaving the dates off once I was five or six years out of college, mostly because I spent seven years working on my degree and I hated having that listed there for hiring managers to ask about.

    5. Jiya*

      I think we’re about the same age – I split my resume into experience in my field and experience outside of it. I graduated law school during the recession, which was…fun, and didn’t get my first “proper” job until well over a year later. The non-relevant section includes my temp work, volunteer work, summer jobs, and the work-study I did in law school and college, so unless someone is trying very hard to reconstruct my entire timeline, I think it does a good job obscuring the gaunt times.

  50. Dolphin*

    Top performers who consistently receive excellent feedback from their managers – do you ever feel that if you switched managers your new manager may have a different opinion of your performance than your current manager?

    Perhaps it is is imposter syndrome, but this is one of my main concerns about switching jobs – right now I receive nothing but complimentary feedback from my manager, and I am worried that in a new job I will no longer be recognized as a top performer. My work quality would not change, but perhaps my new manager will have a different perspective on top performance than my current manager. Right now I am on the promotion fast-track – if a new manager will not support that then it is not worth switching jobs until I have made it to the top.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      There was a restructuring at my old job and I got switched to a new manager. I was very nervous because I had a great working relationship with my manager and was one of the top performers on the team. My boss frequently referred people to me to answer questions when he didn’t know the answers and I would cover when he was out. I was definitely nervous about having to rebuild my reputation with a new manager. Lucky for me, my new manager had heard about the good work I did and was thrilled to have me on her team, so I was worrying for nothing.

    2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I’m willing to bet that you new manager has already heard that you are a Rock Star! so just continue to do an awesome job. As someone once said, “If you do a good job Anywhere, you’ll do a good job Everywhere”

    3. Anonymom*

      I just switched jobs – from a company where my boss told me I was a rock star, but an extreme outlier among my peers, and that I needed to tone it down to maintain good work culture – to a place where I’m a medium rock star among very talented, smart hard workers who have had the benefit of high level training. It’s weird, but I can now see the potential for growth because the bar is so much higher. New boss has a different perspective of me, but it’s because she is much more knowledgable and can actually give me feedback in ways old boss couldn’t.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      If you have another boss who is also professional then your reviews will probably be consistent with what you have now. I had a wildly unprofessional boss and my reviews tanked. Bad.

    5. Jiya*

      Yup, I definitely had that thought process – and I stayed where I was, and I got that promotion. But if you’re a rock star, surely you have qualities that will carry over no matter what your position – good work ethic, an ability to learn, reliability, etc. Do you have to be a rock star in your field in order to get a promotion, or will merely being excellent suffice? Because maybe then, even if your supervisor gives you an A- instead of an A+ you can still meet your professional goals.

    6. Jessie*

      I think certain aspects of being a top performer are fairly universal. Others may differ, depending on the manager.

      My current boss loves that I “manage up”. I had to reign it in at my last job, because my boss felt it was overstepping. It depends on the boss!

      Top performers, in my experience, tend to be the ones that work hard, do what needs to be done, and has a good attitude about it. I think you’d have to be in a pretty dysfunctional organization if a top performer in one job became the dud colleague in another. That said – it’ll take time to get up to speed, to prove yourself, and gain the level of knowledge you’ll need to be considered a top performer. Don’t mistake being on the learning curve for not being a top performer.

  51. Free Meerkats*

    Following up on the first comment string in the “Employees have to ask for a raise” post from Wednesday, https://www.askamanager.org/2018/02/should-employees-have-to-ask-for-a-raise.html#comment-1842046 and Alison’s comment,

    This is really important, because if we paint all salary inequality as “this is about companies paying more based on race,” then it’s really easy for managers to think “oh, we don’t do that” — when in fact, if they took a more thoughtful approach, they’d realize that their intent doesn’t matter; the outcomes do.

    What is the general opinion on the apparent fact that female uber drivers earn less than male drivers when the algorithm that uber uses is gender neutral?

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      It’s a classic case of disparate impact. The algorithm is gender neutral in the sense that it doesn’t specifically track the gender of the driver, but the results aren’t.

      1. The OG Anonsie*

        The algorithm is gender neutral in the sense that it doesn’t specifically track the gender of the driver, but the results aren’t.

        Exactly this– folks like to point at things like this to say, see, it’s impartial and does not account for gender, it’s all about choices. But “doesn’t use gender as a variable” doesn’t mean “is not impacted by gender.” A lot of the variables that are measured in any given calculation for pay rates, or analysis of existing rates, are indeed impacted by gender. And in some cases (probably not this one, from a cursory read, but in plenty of others) the variables chosen and way they are weighted can absolutely be heavily gendered.

        So then we get to the why. Like Alice says below, are the differences in what male and female drivers do just free choices that the drivers are making, or are they triggered by constraints that are outside the control of the drivers themselves?

        1. Scott*

          I think the biggest money in Uber can be made at the most… dangerous times, like bar closing hours where the surge is double or even triple. As a male, I’d have no problem dealing with drunk people, but as a woman, I might think twice about having up to 4 drunk men in my car. This could explain part of the pay gap as far as Uber goes.

          1. Free Meerkats*

            I see this like shift differential pay. Companies will pay those who are willing to work graveyard shift more money because it’s less desirable. Is that gender discrimination? I’d argue no, but graveyard tends to have a higher proportion of men than days or swings. The reasons are largely societal, but does that rise to disparate impact?

            1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              I’d look back on what The OG Anonsie said above about whether the constraints involved are outside the control of the drivers. From what I understand, most graveyard shift work does not have a very different psychological or physiological impact between men and women — which cannot be said about being in a car full of drunk dudes!

            2. Barney Barnaby*

              Societal or prudential?

              I would be a lot less worried about a man driving for Uber at 2 am than a woman. It’s just that women are more frequently targets of violence of opportunity. That doesn’t mean I think we need chaperones or any nonsense, but the reality is that a lot of women who have no problem working at 2 pm wouldn’t want to meet strangers at 2 am.

    3. Alice*

      Well, the algorithm can be gender neutral, but the world isn’t.
      The working paper ascribes the gender gap to the time and location of driving, experience with the Uber platform (which helps drivers figure out where and when to drive, and which trips to accept), and the fact that men drive faster. Are these three factors preferences or constraints?

      2. Buffy*

        Yes! In a graduate class I’ve taken, we did an entire lesson on how algorithms can actually support biases. (The example my professor gave was in the criminal justice system, if an algorithm takes in all a person’s data to determine their recidivism rate in order to decide to grant parole, it could conclude that race is a pertinent factor.)

        1. Natalie*

          Which has actually happened! I’m not sure if this was public when you took the class, but some jurisdictions *do* use algorithms in sentencing and the algorithms do reflect the racism in society.

      3. Sam Foster*

        Came here to point this out, thank you for doing it more eloquently than I would’ve been able to. :)

  52. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    People who work in non-profits: what was your job title in your very first, paid non-profit job? Did you transition from another field or did you start out in non-profit work?

    1. Anonygrouse*

      My title was “admin project coordinator” at my first paid job after college (nonprofit, but at a very large institution). I was essentially an admin assistant for two managers.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I was a Coordinator. It was my second job out of college, but I’d only had about a year or so of experience. It was my first non-profit job (I had come from the hospitality sector, but again, this was very early on in my career).

    3. Ada Lovelace*

      I transitioned from retail/customer service (10 years experience and went back to school at 26) to nonprofit work starting as a grants coordinator. It was supposed to be admin work for the grants department but even when I asked, they never gave me any work.

    4. bluelyon*

      Marketing and development associate which turned out to be code for office manager/millennial who must be good at social media/person at the front desk who sometimes had to deal with people bringing me dead animals… all things I was glad to leave behind
      I started in non-profits right out of college. I’m always curious about transitioning to for-profit down the road

    5. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      My job title in my first full-time nonprofit job (i.e., not jobs I had during college) was “Junior Policy Associate.” This was right after finishing a Master of Public Policy, and with one year of full-time work experience (at a university) and several nonprofit internships.

      1. E*

        I’m thinking about doing an MPP down the road – can you talk a little about your experience and whether you found it useful? I’m nervous about the debt and am trying to balance the allure of a top-tier school vs. a cheaper one with less prestige.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Sure! I did mine 14 years ago, so take this with a grain of salt.

          I did my MPP after one year of post-college work, at a prestigious university.

          I wanted to do an MPP rather than an MPA because I wanted to hone my analytical skills, and I chose the programs to which I applied based on their focus on statistics, economics, and analysis (… and their location; I wasn’t willing to move to Bloomington IN or Syracuse NY, no matter how good the program was).

          I applied to four schools: the Goldman School of Public Policy at the University of Calfornia – Berkeley, the Harris School of Public Policy at the University of Chicago, the Humphrey School of Public Affairs at the University of Minnesota (my local university), and the school I attended.

          I ended up choosing my program based primarily on cost. Because I received a scholarship at the school I attended, it was roughly the same cost as the University of Minnesota, where I had access to in-state tuition rates. I did not receive scholarships at Berkeley or the University of Chicago, so those were totally out of reach for me. I ended up with just under $40,000 in student debt and was incredibly fortunate to graduate at a time with crazy-low interest rates so the repayment was doable.

          I ended up taking a career direction that didn’t use the analytical skills I’d been so focused on, but the program really improved my writing. In high school and college I was always a good student with really high test scores… but I ended up feeling like I didn’t really learn to write until I went to graduate school.

          That being said, the main value of the program was not in the actual skills it developed, but the bump it gave to my resume. I am 100% sure that my degree from a famous university was a significant factor in getting the job I got out of grad school. I had little experience, but the degree was enough to make my boss notice and slow down enough to see the possibility in my cover letter and resume (… he told me this explicitly). It also affected the raises I got; my boss was aware of the possibility that I could move on and he wanted to give me reason to stay.

          So for me the value of the prestigious university was significant (it had more significance that it deserved, at least in that first job search). And, for me, the cost wasn’t more than the local university — so don’t be afraid to apply to the bigger, fancier schools, which tend to have bigger endowments.

          Assuming you’re planning to go full-time, I’d also think about the opportunities you’ll have during school. I went to grad school in a city with a lot of opportunities for a policy/analysis person, and that meant I had some good internship experience on my resume when I graduated (which would have been a lot harder to come by in Syracuse). Think about the level of policy you’re interested in and factor that into where you want to be. If you want to work on Capitol Hill, or at a think tank working on federal policy issues you probably want to be in DC; if you’re interested in state-level policy (lots of health care policy is done at the state level, e.g.) then a state capitol might be good fit; if you’re interested in international issues then NYC or the Bay Area (depending on the part of the world you’re interested in) might be the best fit.

      2. Mimmy*

        Adding to E’s question: I know every program is different, but is there a set of emphasized skills that is universal to all MPP programs? A few people have suggested I pursue a policy-related career which does sound interesting–I am a good writer and would probably enjoy analyzing policies. However, the part that makes me hesitant are the financial and economic courses that seem to be common; these are subject areas I was never very comfortable with.

    6. Ramona Flowers*

      I had done freelance writing for non-profits but then transitioned into a new area of work and this is my first actual full-time role in a non-profit. I’m an officer (eg Llama Programme Officer).

    7. zora*

      Organizer, then Canvasser, then Chapter Organizer.
      I basically started by doing a lot of work as a volunteer (founding chapters and small organizations) while working a day job, and then got the first opportunities to get paid for organizing.

      Field Organizer was another title, on a political campaign.

  53. NaoNao*

    Hello AAM
    I’m declining a relatively decent offer for a specific reason that might be valuable for the hiring committee to know about. On a small team of 6 total, with the top person being the Director of the department, they’re attempting to hire a tenured, mid-career person into the second to lowest spot in the org chart/team. The only position lower is a general co-ordinator post, and that post reports to the same manager as the open post.

    A couple of my friends argued that the duties and salary were more important than the actual org chart, but this is a job that requires change management and leverage with clients both internal and external. Being located almost dead last on a very small org chart was a big sticking point to me and I brought it up a couple times and couldn’t get a clear answer (“we don’t really talk about it” and “we all help each other” and “Well, you’ll report to me [the manager]” were some of the answers I got when I politely probed about it).

    Is it worth bringing up tactfully and politely in the “decline” email I’ll be sending later? Or is it like, eh, that’s their problem and they’ll either figure it out or not?

    1. Anon Anon*

      I wouldn’t. If they are interested they may email you and ask. That would provide you with the opening to provide some feedback. But, if they don’t ask, they don’t care.

    2. JHunz*

      I don’t see how bringing it up could do any good. If it’s a six-person team it’s pretty unlikely that they can restructure it in a way that brings that position up the chart and still makes any sense. I also don’t see why it matters whether you’re low on the chart if the team itself is fairly senior, which seems to be the case.

      1. NaoNao*

        In the position itself, it matters in a couple ways:

        The perception by other people in the org. The business is a structured, “heritage” (over 100 years old), very hierarchical place in a conservative industry. Who you report to and what your title and position are can have a lot of meaning.

        The ability to get calls, emails, or meeting invites returned, answered, taken seriously by “higher ups”.

        Also, again, the team members are not all, say VPs, under a grandboss. The team member that would share my immediate manager was a “general co-ordinator”, which in this org is one step above an intern. So the team is made up of a very junior entry level post, the open post, the manager, two senior posts, and a director.

        But agreed, it’s a bit of a moot point and “someone else’s problem” :)

    3. Lora*

      “this is a job that requires change management”
      ” second to lowest spot in the org chart/team”

      So this is an honorary position because they’ve been told that Change X is needed, but they don’t want to actually DO X, they just want to put some window dressing like they are thinking about it and gosh X is sooooo haaaaaard…

      You were right to turn it down. This is not a role you or anyone else would have been especially successful in. You would be frustrated and swimming against the tide the whole time.

  54. Lora*

    I just wanted to share a moment of vindication:

    About 5 years ago, I did a few months of consulting for a company that had received a Consent Decree from the FDA. This is when the FDA tells a company, you have effed up so badly, we are padlocking the doors, and everything that goes on at this site will be monitored by a third party because you people can’t be trusted to do anything right. You don’t get a Consent Decree by accident, you get one because you’ve had literal years to get your act together, you’ve been explicitly told how to get your act together, and you persisted in being fk-ups. People who get one, richly deserve it.

    The company wanted me to help them with some validation work. The Consent Decree was given because they had metal shavings in their product which was to be injected into people, which came from crappy old equipment. They had bought all new equipment and needed help validating it. Okay.

    The problem was, it’s not just that their equipment was old and crappy, it’s that the people who thought it was just peachy keen to keep on running with crappy old equipment that left metal shavings in the product were still employed there. I helped them a little bit, but also recommended that they fire the useless idiots. They said, we can’t fire them, we never fire anyone here. I said okay, understood – but then remove them from a position where they can actually interact with anyone. Make them in charge of Internet Cat Pictures and Porn Downloading. These people are goddam monsters because not only do they think this sort of thing is A-OK, they are bullying normal people into acquiescing to their nonsense. That is my official recommendation. There were multiple other consultants they had brought in who agreed with me and supported me on this point. They were probably hoping we would disagree, but we were pretty much unanimous.

    Management sighed and shrugged and did take away some of the people’s responsibilities, and shuffled others around. Two were sent to a site they had planned to divest anyway. One was put in an office by himself and told to work on SOPs (he chose to spend the time texting his girlfriend all day, which…fine, whatever). A few stayed in their positions. They did fire some, in one case an entire department was fired. One guy who was widely considered the worst offender, died of a heart attack. A few others left of their own accord. But a few people were still there, in positions of power. And this, my friends, is A Problem.

    This week, the parent company got another inspection notice from the FDA (FDA is slow to post letters, I won’t find out non-rumor details for a few weeks) and decided to shut the place down and lay everyone off.

    They have spent over $1B (billion, with a B) on this boondoggle, and lost it because they would not fire the incompetence of Fergi that infested this site. I hope other companies take a lesson from this, but they probably won’t. Do not employ a-holes. Just don’t. You may as well set money on fire, for all the good it does you.

    Early in my career, my employer got a Consent Decree for a site and they basically nuked the site from orbit. I thought that was a bit harsh; it was near my hometown, and a lot of people who lost their jobs were unable to find another – it’s not the most economically active place in the world. Some had to get out of science altogether, or go back to school for another degree, because they were essentially blacklisted. Then I saw this site that is now closing, and I realized that no, that employer did exactly right.

    1. Havarti*

      *spits drink* So is an incompetence of Fergi like a murder of crows or gaggle of geese? Anyway I’m glad they got shut down. Injecting people with metal shavings is bad.

    2. PX*

      While this is a horrible situation, your description of it has been very pleasant to read. Sad that it takes so long for the FDA to act, but at least they finally do!

      1. JHunz*

        The FDA’s responsibilities vastly outstrip their funding and number of employees. I’m surprised they’re still able to function at all. But the power they wield when they are present is extremely scary – one of the more memorable moments of my career so far is explaining a ticket in detail to an FDA auditor.

        1. Lora*

          Heh, the special training I got on How To Deal With FDA Audits has been enormously helpful in so many aspects of my career and personal life.

          1. Damn it, Hardison!*

            My training was along the lines of the advice I got from litigation counsel – answer the question succinctly and then stop talking!

            1. Lora*

              Yes.

              Never talk because it’s quiet. Silence is fine. Do not fill in conversational gaps. If you get a stony glare, return it with a smile.
              Answer only the question being asked, only as it relates to the job. Do not answer any questions outside of your expertise or your role at this company. Stay in your lane.
              It’s A-OK to say “I don’t know.” You can try to direct them to someone else who is in charge or could help, you can direct the question to QA/Compliance, or if you know the relevant documentation, you can refer to that.
              Always be chilly-polite and distant, detached. If someone yells, if someone gets overwrought (not the auditors usually, but some managers would just crack and throw tantrums) just keep your chill.

    3. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      My only concern is that everyone who deserves to get a job gets a job, and that you get paid even though your client was shut down. All that bunch of Ferguses got what they deserved.

      1. Lora*

        Oh, that part is all taken care of. NewJob asked if there was anyone I knew who they could pick up from the site closing. I gave them a couple of names – turns out those folks had left a couple years ago, seeing the writing on the wall.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It seems to me that the best idea would be to remove the old crappy equipment from the site. They chose not to do that. It could have been an easy way to reduce the Fergi too. “Oh, look. Your favorite machine is MIA. Too bad, how sad.” And watch them walk out the door.
      The fact that they did not remove/disable the equipment says to me that this is a company that had more than one problem going on.

      1. Lora*

        That was one of the first things I asked when we were talking through the consent decree: why didn’t you contract everything out for a few months as soon as you got the warning letter, trash the old equipment and get new right away? you could have been up and running in 6 months, 9 months tops. Instead this has dragged out for several years and there’s no end in sight, plus the consent decree trashed your stock so badly you had a hostile takeover.

        “Well, hindsight is 20/20…”

  55. Alina*

    My first time commenting here, but I’ve long followed this thread.

    I’ve been unhappy working as an assistant to the boss of my org for about six months now, but fortunately I was able to have a relatively frank conversation with her about how I’m not the right fit for this position and how it would be best for both of us if we could do a smooth transition. The plan is for there to be some overlap between me and my replacement, giving me more time to find a job while still receiving a paycheck. The problem is, I dread waking up every morning and having to deal with my boss yelling at me for yet another mistake I’ve made. While things were slightly better the week after we had the transition conversation, she still goes out of his way to find something to yell at me about, even if I did nothing wrong.

    What coping strategies do you use to deal with a mean boss? I can sort of see the light at the end of the tunnel, but since the transition is going to last over the course of several months, it is not giving me much optimism. The stress is really affecting my mental and physical health at this point, so part of me is relieved; I’m just worried that I’m going to rage-quit and I really can’t afford to do that right now.

    Also, if anyone has any advice for what to tell interviewers about a mutual separation from a job, please let me know. Technically I’m resigning, but I just don’t know what to tell interviewers about why I only lasted six months there.

    1. JustaCPA*

      ” I’m not the right fit for this position”

      You said it right here. With such a short time period, you can say, I realized relatively quickly it wasnt the right fit for me and after talking to my boss, was able to work with her to schedule my transitioning out so that she had lots of time to find and train my replacement.

    2. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      Oh – I’m so sorry to hear that you are going through this! I don’t have a ton of advice, and in all honesty there may not be much you can actually fo but just keep on hanging on. What I can say is – I was just in almost the exact same position. I was in my assistant role a bit longer, but not enough to look decent. However my situation has ended very happily. I don’t mean to brag, but I hope hearing a sucess story will give you hope!

      – Its great that you were able to have a frank conversation with your boss! It sounds like they’re tough to deal with, but honestly they are being pretty reasonable about giving you time to job hunt/transition. Maybe try to remind yourself of that whenever they do something mean or jerky. I wrote a list of the positives about this job (it was a very short list) and looked at it whenever I started to get upset. It didn’t make it better, but it helped me to keep holding on.
      – I was in the same position in that the stress and frustration wer really affecting my health. Everyday for about two weeks I started crying every time I stepped into the elevator going up to my office. I started going to the gym or doing something active everyday before or after work. Every fiber of my being just wanted to curl up in bed, but it really did help my mental state and whenever one of my bosses did something jerky I’d imagine their face being stomped on everytime my foot hit the treadmill (sorry – this is such cliche advice! all I can say is it did work for me)
      – I had a back up plan. If things continued to get worse I was going to try to talk to my dr about how my stress was effecting my mental health and try to arrange for some sort of FMLA leave. During that leave I was going to job hunt so hard.
      – I prioritized job hunting. I figured I was never going to make my boss happy. I did the best I could to keep up with my work, but I gave myself permission to make some mistakes and made peace with the fact that my boss was never going to be impressed with my performance. So at least if I made some mistakes they’d be in the service of getting out of my current role.

      Hang in there! Do whatever it is that makes you feel good/better! Look into self-care ideas – maybe there’s something out there besides exercise that would help. My job hunt ended up being much shorter than I anticipated. I’m hoping the same happens to you!

    3. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      Oh another thing – start thinking about why you and your boss are not a good fit. Interviewers will definitely ask this. In my case because I was able to articulate why (I said I have a more proactive work style, whereas my boss is more reactive – this made it very hard to be in alignment on priorities/goals/etc.).

    4. Barney Barnaby*

      “I was not a good fit for the position and I worked with my boss to manage a smooth transition to the next employee.”

      If you’re that bad, they don’t let you hang around collecting money.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I think I would tell her that she needs to stop yelling.

      My advice is just get out of there as fast as you can. It’s really easy to feel exhausted from this. Job hunt as often as possible. Maybe build in a week off before starting the next job.

  56. Thlayli*

    I took this week off sick because I had a miscarriage (which I posted about anonymously last week – I was waiting for it to happen then but it actually started last weekend). For various reasons I don’t want to tell most people in work, though I did tell my boss with whom I get on pretty well and he was very understanding.

    I should have just said I was sick when I rang in on Monday morning but I kind of messed up and told the guy I spoke to it was a family emergency and to let them know at the morning meeting that I might not be in for a couple days. So most people will know about the family emergency and I can’t just say I was off sick.

    My plan is to say I had a death in the family and if someone asks who (people are a lot more inquiring about personal lives here than seems to be the norm in America), I will just say I don’t really want to talk about it and change the subject. I think this would work fine in general, but there is one thing that may scupper this. I was physically sick last week – I took one day off and when I was in I was puking in he bathroom a lot.

    Im worried the combination of me being sick and having a death in the family but being really circumspect about it will make people wonder. My place is full of gossip so I just want to give them a simple explanation that shuts down all speculation. Is my plan the best it can be or is there anything else I could say that might shut down speculation better? The only other thing i can think of is to invent a close relative who died, but I would not feel comfortable with that.

    1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      I’m so sorry. How about just something a bit more plain, like “someone in my family had a medical issue, it’s resolved now.” And if the gossipers pry, just say, “they asked me not to discuss it with others, thanks for understanding.” Take care of yourself.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you could say that you were sick and misspoke when you said it was a family emergency. That might not actually stop the gossiping, but there may be nothing you can really do about that unfortunately.

      I’m sorry that you have to deal with this additional stress at such a difficult time.

    3. Overeducated*

      I’m so very sorry.

      Do you think you could say something like “it’s painful and I’m not ready to talk about it” until people lose interest? I’m not sure if that would shut down speculation, but I hope it would keep it out of your face.

      1. Liane*

        So sorry as well.

        I know there have been letters or comments (cannot recall which) here where people have had good outcomes with asking their boss or a trusted & close coworker to pass the word that their loss/illness/emergency is very painful, and asks that everyone let her focus on work so the office can be a place she doesn’t have to think about it

    4. sitting with sad salad.*

      So sorry you are going though this. How would it be to say that your family emergency involved a personal medical issue which you dont wish to talk about? Then you can assure them you are on the mend. If that won’t work and you think that will indeed lead to gossip then the “death in the family” story will probably work. I would say something like, “thanks so much for your concern. Its hard dealing with loss when you are going through your own medical issues, so I would prefer not to talk about it.” Then its vague enough without actually lying, and will probably shut most people down.

    5. Plague of frogs*

      I’m so, so sorry.

      If it were me, I think I would stick to family emergency, and then add, “And on top of that, I got food poisoning! Still getting over it.” People tend to believe that trouble comes in multiples, so there shouldn’t be much comment.

      1. Yetanotherjennifer*

        I like this one. Very believable and involves gross body functions that need no further details.

        And I’m very sorry for your loss.

    6. Havarti*

      Thlayli, I’m so sorry for your loss. But yeah, you probably shouldn’t invent dead relatives unless you plan to keep track of them down the line so you don’t accidentally kill them off again. I kinda like Frog’s suggestion of keeping the family emergency which is now resolved and you got ill as well. I’ve sighed “man, when it rains, it pours” numerous times and most people nod sagely along.

    7. Thlayli*

      Thanks for your input everyone. I think I’m just gonna stick with the plan to tell the truth – that there was a death in the family but I don’t want to talk about it. I will use the “it’s painful to talk about it” line from overeducated if anyone pries after that. If anyone mentions me being off sick I will use the “yeah it never rains but pours it sucks grieving when you are sick too” line.

      I appreciate all the suggestions – thank you all.

    8. Casuan*

      Just say that it was a very close relative & you prefer not to discuss it. People will gossip regardless & you don’t need to care about what they say.
      Take care of yourself & your family. You needn’t invent this relative because the relative was real.
      Thlayli, I’m so very sorry for your loss.

  57. Seespotbitejane*

    I’m job hunting and I’m looking for jobs that will give me a substantial pay increase because I am currently both under paid for my position and under employed. I have an interview next week for a job with a company that seems really cool but top of the salary range I listed is 2k lower than the minimum I set for myself on this job hunt but I could live with it assuming everything else is great. The bottom of their salary range is lower than I can afford to take. So when salary comes up at the interview what should I say? Should I say my starting number is their top number?

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      I have a related, two-part question. (Not trying to hijak Seespotbitejane; hoping people will be able to help us both!)

      My context is that I work in a non-profit field in a large city, where there is a huge range of salaries for similar positions (entry level positions can be anywhere from $34-55k, and managers make anywhere from $50-$90k). After 10 years in the field and some luck/strategy in job changes, I’m now solidly above the median for my level of experience.

      Unlike Seespotbitejane, I think it’s unlikely based on my past hiring experiences in this field that salary will come up before a job offer is made. How should I approach jobs where there is no salary range posted, but based on description and organization I think there’s a good chance that they’re thinking of the position as capping out $5-$10k below what I’d look at? On the one hand, I don’t want to start premature salary negotiations, and they’re not likely to bring up a range until an offer is made. On the other hand, I’m really not interested in taking a job that’s a substantial pay cut from what I’m currently making, I’m not interested in wasting my time or theirs. Is there any way to ask about salary range earlier in the process without raising flags? Or should I just know that I might need to turn down an offer if they’re not willing to come close to what I’m asking for?

      Second (and related): How do you approach salary negotiations when there is such a huge range in the field? (Thinking of Alison’s post here: https://www.askamanager.org/2015/04/how-to-determine-what-salary-to-ask-for.html). If someone offers me $X, where $X is in the middle of the field’s standard range, but $10,000 below my absolute minimum, can I reasonably ask them for $10,000 more than they offered? Do I say, “I am looking for something in the range of $X+$10,000 to $X+$15,000”, knowing they might try to meet me halfway but still come in below what I’d take? How do I make it clear that what they’re offering isn’t unusual, and I know it might be a stretch for their organization, but without undercutting that what I’m asking for isn’t unreasonable?

    2. Anony*

      If that is what you would be willing to accept then yes. I’m not sure what else you could do. Naming a number higher than their top number as your motto number would look really out of touch.

  58. Michael Mouse*

    I just started a new job, and I’m a grand-boss for the first time! There are many staff members who report to people who report to me, and I’d like any thoughts as to how to be approachable and have a good connection with them. In my own experience, I’ve had some very nice grand-bosses, but I always found them kind of intimidating based on their role, and now I notice people are having the same reaction to me. I am only at the same site with them once a week, and there’s only minimal opportunity for casual social interaction. I’ve asked my reports to tell me if one of their reports does something really great, so I can reach out to personally thank/congratulate them, and I also will have some all-staff meetings so we can connect in that way. Any other thoughts or ideas?

    1. ContentWrangler*

      This is more difficult if you’re only on site once a week, but when my new grand-boss started, she set up 1:1 meetings with each of us and encouraged us to reach out to her to set up another “skip-level” meeting if needed. I appreciated how she took the time to hear about our work directly from us.

      1. Windchime*

        This is what my grand-boss does, too. She is a very busy person but she always schedules a meeting with each new employee. It’s very low-key, just to get acquainted. Mine felt a little awkward, but it was nice to get to know her as a person so now I feel comfortable saying, “Good morning, Jane” when we pass in the hall.

    2. NaoNao*

      I found skip-level meetings pretty helpful. Also if the grand boss was looped in or included during a few routine meetings, that helped make it feel less “Activate Death Star” when we saw her name on a meeting invite.

      1. Epsilon Delta*

        Definitely go to a few meetings if possible/if it makes sense for your role. If there is something like a weekly “team meeting” it would be nice to attend that on occasion. The few times Old Grand Boss attended our team meeting was to tell us bad news, so I kind of came to associate him with that even in other contexts.

        Another thing that made my former grand-bosses scary is that I didn’t ever interact with them (not even by email) or have a sense of their personality, yet they had a lot of influence over my future at the company just by virtue of being my boss’s boss.

    3. Lumen*

      I have a boss, a grand-boss, and a great-grand-boss, and that’s all before we get to the C-suite.

      My grand-boss sits with the rest of our department, so that helps level the playing field and our perception of her, but she’s also in meetings almost constantly so sometimes we rarely see her.

      A couple of things she does that I think help: if she assigns a task, sometimes she is the one to run through the how-to, so that narrows the gap a bit. She also makes herself available to answer questions or chime in on complicated issues, so we loop her in without overly stressing about how ‘busy’ she is. She knows she’s busy, so think she actively works against that perception so that we don’t cut her out in an attempt not to bother her.

      Also, I think downward-flowing praise may work a bit better for you in this case. My boss tells me when my grand-boss has good things to say about me, and that makes me think better of my grand-boss and feel like we have a good relationship even if we don’t connect much. When I do have time with my grand-boss, she tells me about things my great-grand-boss has said about me, which tells me that she’s sharing positive things even higher up, with people I NEVER spend time with.

      A way to do this would be, say, if your report tells you about something the team accomplished, ask for specifics on who did what, and maybe even explicitly ask your report to tell THEIR reports that you were impressed. Ie, “Make sure Sam knows I’m really pleased with this new teapot design, it’s just what I was looking for.” It means training your reports to follow through on sharing that praise, but I think the end result will be better.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      When my grandboss hears good feedback on our work, he sends a team email about it. He also emails just to let us know that he found the llama grooming documentation so useful and easy to find, or to thank people for how fluffy the llamas are looking.

    5. Blue Eagle*

      My #1 suggestion is to learn all of their names and address them by name when you walk by them in the hallway. I was always psyched when my grandboss knew who I was.

    6. Weyrwoman*

      My grand-boss’s boss has skip-level open office hours he calls “snack and chat”, where you can munch on candy and talk to him about work related (or not!) topics!

    7. mAd Woman*

      My team sounds smaller than yours (9 people total) but I’m also a grandboss for the first time.
      1. Stay casual with them and they will stay casual with you. Even if you can only talk to them once a week, make an effort to remember things and ask them. How was their recent vacation, did their dog learn any new tricks, etc. Or if you don’t know those things, what are they watching on Netflix lately or have they tried any new restaurants. Often it seems the grand boss is just as nervous as the team so just be friendly.
      2. Give praise personally but let the managers do the performance talks. It’s very scary for employees when the big boss they don’t know comes in to talk about how they could do something better. You don’t want them fearing your visits.
      3. Have transparency meetings. Once a month, I get my whole team in one room for a team meeting. I hear from everyone on the team what their priorities are right now and what news they have. And I share any company/dept news with everyone at once so I know they’ve all been told and there’s no rumor mill. I also bring up ideas or changes I’m thinking about to discuss.
      I also do monthly skip level meetings with each person to check in on their well-being and let them bring up any client or personnel issues they are facing.
      4. Make an effort to ask the indirect reports for explanations and ideas. Especially in meetings, it’s easy to think as the grandboss you already know and can explain it better. But it really boosts the morale of lower employees to be given the floor by their grandboss.

  59. Sandy*

    So I started a new job a week ago. The vast majority of my coworkers are wonderful: competent, kind, patient, genuinely welcoming.

    Unfortunately, the colleague that I need to work the most closely with is NOT. He is very competent, but he has been close to hostile to me since I started. He won’t answer questions, he sniggers when I bother asking them, he won’t copy me on relevant emails.

    Any suggestions for how to nip this in the bud?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m a confrontational type of person, so I’d be inclined to call him out in the moment.

      “Fergus, why are you laughing that I’m asking you a question? Fergus, why didn’t you copy me on the email about the Teapot Distribution Center?”

    2. ContentWrangler*

      When his hostile behavior prevents your work from being done, you should address it with him directly. If you’re not a fan of confrontation, maybe try to take a tone of “Of course you’ll stop doing this bad behavior/help me with this because you’re a reasonable person”. You could definitely use Santiago’s wording.

      And then, if directly calling him out doesn’t work, then these are definitely issues you should take to your manager. Framed as less about him being a jerk and more about it preventing you from working efficiently.

    3. o.b.*

      Overall — Talk to your manager. They’ll have suggestions for how to deal with this (such as going to your colleague’s manager), and should be looped in anyway on anything affecting your ability to do your job.

      Won’t answer questions — SO frustrating. Ask him how he would like you to ask them (email? call? schedule a meeting? corral him in a corner and shake him down for answers?). It may be less intention and more incompetence. If you’re not already, consolidate your questions so you can ask a bunch at once instead of each one as they come to you. Also, take peace in the knowledge that the longer you’re in your job, the fewer questions you may have AND the more people you’ll know who may be able to

      Sniggering — If possible, don’t react. Act like you didn’t hear him and wait in ruthless silence for him to answer your question. Feel free to redirect the conversation back to your question (with polite confusion) if he tries to skip past it.

      Not being copied on emails — Be very politely puzzled. “What email? I didn’t receive that. Would you mind forwarding it to me?” Your coworker is an ass, but since you’ve only been there a week, it’s *possible* these omissions are accidental.

      Anything else where you are waiting on something from Jerk Coworker so that you can move on with your work — just say so. “Sandy, what’s up with the llama grooming invoice?” “I am waiting on clarification from Jerk Coworker about how to bill for a medium-length trim. Let me follow up now.” Use other people as an excuse — “oh I am SO sorry to bother you again (you’re not sorry) but Cindy is looking for an update on the llama grooming invoice. Can we revisit my question about trimming?”

      This is annoying. Good luck

      1. o.b.*

        To clarify—when you raise this with your manager, you should frame it not as “Coworker is a stupid jerk” (though possibly true!) but as “Coworker’s (list specific behaviors) can sometimes prevent me from (impacted parts of your work). I’ve tried x and y already. How would you suggest I best handle this?”

  60. Detective Amy Santiago*

    I am so, so tired of people who talk over me, don’t listen to what I’m saying, or just plain disrespect me.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      No advice, just YES. I find this more frustrating than just about anything else. I wish you the strength to give them dirty looks, pause, “As I was saying…”, etc.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Ugh, yes. It’s better now that I’m off the phones, but client condescension is one of the worst parts of my job.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Ugh. I have never had an external client say something condescending to me (I’m pretty fortunate like that) but colleagues and internal clients? Hoo boy. I once nearly threw my laptop across the room (in the privacy of my own living room, mind you) because I gave my VP some information that she completely freaking ignored.

        A client once said something really nasty to my boss via email, but the way he did it was really confusing to her because he referred to something very NYC-adjacent and she was in LA. (I’m trying to be vague here, but trust me.) She called me and said, “I don’t understand– what does he mean?” I had to tell her and explain what he was implying and listen to her go off while trying to compose a neutral email to this jackass.

        Amy, you’ve hit a nerve. :)

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          I’ve had to interact with a lot of older male clients who really, truly, deeply have not caught up with the notion of talking to omg a woman about the stock market. The ones who try to weasel around it by asking me if they can talk to someone who “really knows what they’re talking about” makes me want to throw things out the window.

          But I just get my satisfaction in talking more knowledgeably than them. (Which isn’t hard, since they’re usually thinking of the market of 30-40 years ago.)

    3. Anonish*

      I’m in the process of trying to get transferred to another team because I have one coworker that I cannot put up with for another minute. My favorite is when he (older man, I am younger woman, SHOCKER) interrupts me halfway through a sentence to say the thing that was the second half of my sentence. Happens at least once per meeting.

    4. Lora*

      *raises cup of tea in solidarity* Yes. Me too.

      The worst has always been when a customer/client is talking to me like a normal person and clearly happy with my work, and then boss or grandboss jumps in to say something condescending (example: “we’re so sorry about this, she’s new – normally we’d consider TotallyWrongThing instead”) or looks shocked and says, “OtherDepartmentHead, is this right? You really would put the tea IN the teapot?” and OtherDepartmentHead replies, “uhhh…yes, Lora is quite correct, this is the most efficient way to make tea in a low cost way and doesn’t affect the teapot function or validation.” And then Boss or Grandboss act like it was some foolish newfangledness and the customer is looking at me like, 1. WTF is going on 2. Can we go back to talking like people now?

      Fine, you think I’m a gorram idiot, but I’m still the gorram idiot who has made the client happy, so STFU.

  61. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    Super minor question: I’m American (so my resume generally conforms to American standards) doing an MSc program in the UK. On my resume, can I change the “MSc” to “MS,” or would that be weird/dishonest somehow?

    1. NaoNao*

      I don’t think it’s weird, but if anyone does a background check, you might run into issues. Maybe put the UK phrase and then in parenthesis put (equivalent to US MS)

    2. LadyKelvin*

      I don’t really understand the question. I assume the MSc you are doing is a Master of Science just like an MS is a Master of Science. They are just two different ways of abbreviating them. Am I wrong? (I have a MS which I have seen people abbreviate as MSc so I’ve always assumed they were the same.)

      1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

        No, they’re the same degree. I just want to know if, because my institution abbreviates it one way even though I prefer the other, if there would be a problem if I used my preferred abbreviation since they are, in fact, the same.

    3. Thlayli*

      I have a similar issue. My primary degree is shortened to a three letter acronym which no one outside of my country has heard of it. When I worked in the UK this was equivalent to a British MEng and I used to have on my cv “[qualification, date, institution] (equivalent to UK MEng)”.

      However like other commenters have said in your case it’s literally just two acronyms for the same words so I think you could just put “MS” instead of “MSc (equivalent to US MS).

  62. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    So we were supposed to get a ton of snow last night and didn’t get as much as forecast. I anticipated having to work from home, so I set everything up last night. This morning they sent an email that the office was open, and that if we were close we could be late but if we were further we could work from home. I’m ~40 minutes away. So I looked outside….my tiny car was not moving anywhere due to the lack of plowing. I emailed them that I’d be working from home.

    Now…..it looks like I’m the only one working from home. So I’ll be made fun of mercilessly on Monday.

    Add to that the sound of the batteries dying in my neighbor’s smoke alarm and a severely disgruntled chinchilla……I’m miserable.

    1. Just Peachy*

      It annoys me that people will make fun of you mercilessly for this on Monday for this type of situation.

      Your work said if you were further away, you could work from home. So, why wouldn’t you take them at their word?

      I too have a tiny car, and my apartment complex does not plow well, so I totally get the logic in staying home.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Even the state department of transportation was saying “stay off the roads unless necessary, if you do have to travel take supplies if/when you get stranded”. Pardon me, but I’m not risking my life when I can get my work done safely from home.

        1. Lumen*

          Coworkers: HURR HURR HURR WE R SO FUNNEE BULLYING IS COOL
          You: *deadpan* Yup, you’re right. I’m just a lazy slacker. *roll eyes, move on with day*
          Coworkers: DURR AWWWW DON’T BE MAAAAD
          You: *already moved on*

          1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

            They’ve extended the winter storm warning another six hours. This isn’t letting up any time soon. So my best friend just texted me that when they start giving me a hard time reply, “And how long did it take *you* to get home Friday night?”

            (By the way, this caused me to laugh so hard I woke the chinchilla. I am now getting barked at. But it was worth it.)

          1. Tris Prior*

            Yeah, eff that. I live in Chicago too, have all my life, and this whole “We are tough Chicagoans who sneer at legit safety concerns!” has gotten so old.

    2. NaoNao*

      Lemme tell you a chincilla story that might make you feel better.
      My long ago ex and I would stop into a little pet store that carried chinchillas and admire/pet them every once in a while for fun. We called them “the fluffies.”
      Well, we had vacation plans fall through at the last minute, and I was very upset and tearful. He made several attempts to cheer me up and then landed on “want to go see the fluffies?”
      We did, and we noticed that there was a group of chinchillas all fluffing around and happy in a cuddle pile and then off to the side in a crate was a jet black, badass looking big ol’ chinchilla.

      We asked “How come that guy is in a crate?”
      “Oh, that’s our stud chinchilla. He…has to be separated from the other chinchillas.”

      It was just such a perfect match between the look of the animal and his “job”!

    3. nep*

      If you put in a day’s work like everyone else, no basis for any flak. To hell with anyone who would mock (and — ahem — probably waste precious work time doing it).

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Because this is her sleepy time. And I’m home. Next to her space. With a light on over her cage.

        She’s been in her hidy hut. Butt sticking out. Nose buried in the corner. Every so often there’s a shuffling noise. And she pokes her head out.

        She makes a cranky sound.

        Then shuffles back in.

    5. Annie Moose*

      Meh. A bunch of us made the trek in to the office this morning and then left at lunchtime–we didn’t get as much snow last night as we expected, but it’s been snowing so heavily throughout the day that things were clearly going to get worse. And I’m very glad we all left, because there was so much snow (and so little plowing) that I could barely tell where the road was half the time! (my apartment complex was the worst–the road was totally covered in pure white snow, which was indistinguishable from the pure white snow covering the curbs and sidewalks. It’s a good thing I drive that road every day, because I just had to guess where the curves were!)

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        I went out to sweep off my car. I had to shovel it out a little bit because the plows don’t get super close to the cars.(Which is much appreciated). My front bumper wouldn’t have cleared it. There’s NO WAY I could have reliably gotten to work.

        I’d rather be annoyed with jerky co-workers than dead.

  63. Lorna D*

    I’d like advice on a previous position in case something like it happens again.
    I was totally at the whims of my boss’ wild guesses. She thought of herself as someone who was very intuitive and could figure people out (she wasn’t) and she’d start ascribing all sorts of false things to me based on “intuition” and if I tried to explain what was actually going on, she’d accuse me of being defensive.
    Examples:
    – I was having trouble with one of our tools and couldn’t figure it out, so I called her over. She looked at everything and said “oh, there must be a bug, you can log off and wait for an hour or so and try again.” It really didn’t seem like a bug but she’d been using the tool for years and I’d just started so I figured she knew and said ok. Later at a performance review she brought this up as my having a lack of knowledge but trying to blame it on a bug in the system to cover it up! I told her that’s not what was going on and she told me to stop being defensive. She said she could tell by my facial expression and body movements that I was nervous and that was ok but to not blame not knowing things on bugs anymore.

    – A really good friend of hers worked in tech support (this was at a call center where everything we did with our phones was recorded btw) and I had a tech issue so I called, and he was very, very rude to me. He snapped at everything I said and got very frustrated when he told me to do X, I’d do X and say “sorry that doesn’t seem to be working” and he’d accuse me of not actually doing it/doing it wrong. He was so rude I considered it bringing up to my boss but figured maybe he had a bad day, first time I talked to him so I let it slide. Then later I get a call from my boss that he said I was very rude to him. I ask her if she’d listened to the recorded call. Surprise surprise, it’s mising! (Guess who has access to delete them? Tech support. It was definitely not a thing for our call recording system to miss calls) And she said that she was calling to get my side of the story and give me a chance to say what happened, but when I did she angrily sighed into the phone and said “Look, I’ve known Wakeen for a long time, he’s bubbly and I just don’t think he’d do something like that. I can tell by your voice that you know he’s right.” I told her that truly, I did not think I’d did anything wrong in the call but I could send Wakeen an e-mail apologizing if it came off weird? She forbade me from e-mailing him (why?) and told me that I was being defensive. She also used this incident to cost me a promotion and the wages that came with it for “communication issues.”

    -She decided she knew I had a crush on someone because she could tell by how I was acting and that I was always over there” (even though she’d assigned us both to work on a special project that involved us communicating and because of a call-center nature we really needed to get off the floor to get anything done). She wasn’t upset/scolding me or anything, it was more like she was happy and in-the-know, but she was way off base and it was very odd for my boss to insist I had a crush on someone, especially because she thinks she can read people and it really came off like she was just trying to prove it by guessing this.

    And a million more examples, but this is already a long post. I know that this is likely a “your boss sucks and isn’t going to change” situation, but I was completely held hostage by insurance, it was in the worst of the recession, and grandboss was no help at all. Anyone have experience talking to a boss who makes wild guesses and then tells you you’re defensive when you respond with reality?

    1. Plague of frogs*

      Uggghh, she was so unprofessional!

      To my mind, the best solution would be conditioning. You will need a spray bottle.

    2. NaoNao*

      “Hmm. Well, that’s weird because I don’t actually feel that way at all. Guess the radar must be on strike today!” (said lightly)

      Or
      “Huh. That’s a weird thing to say. I am actually doing x because of y.”

      Honestly, call centers (and I have worked in many) can be hotbeds for unprofessional stuff, abuse, and toxic work environments. But the good news is that moving UP is fairly easy–could you apply for trainer, manager, floor manager, etc? Just get out from this woman’s purview.

      1. Leela*

        I wasn’t able to move up, because I was up for a promotion but because of example number 2 she took it away from me unfortunately. But yes, call centers are awful, awful, awful, and they’d better thank their lucky stars for the recession because they wouldn’t have had any staff at all if we were in a position to leave.

    3. Havarti*

      I’m sorry you went through that. That was a toxic job. Honestly, there’s no way to make someone see reason when they don’t want to so either you roll with the punches and meekly agree you were indeed rude to tech support (which is basically be a victim in an abusive situation) or you get the hell out as soon as you can. She’s clearly living in her own reality and her behavior was wildly inappropriate. Unless you’re planning to risk getting fired by verbally smacking her down every chance you get (and some folks thrive on conflict so they would actually enjoy you doing this), there’s no amount of talking that can fix that or make things less stressful.

      1. Havarti*

        I take that back. You could try the gray rock approach and basically not respond. But still, if you have the option to escape such a situation, you should take it.

    4. Me*

      Your boss is loonytunes. I’d deal with her by being as expressionless and computer-like as humanly possible while I searched for another job, although I’d fantasize about responding to her nuttery by telling her that she’s clearly not actually psychic because her intuitions: are always wrong, and every time she spouts some bullshit about her purported mental gifts, she’s embarrassing herself and too delusional to notice.

  64. Normally A Lurker*

    Hi! Ok, I’m making my resume to send out to some headhunters, and I have a problem.

    My current job title has literally nothing to do with what I do. (Think Teapot Organizer, when really I do very light weight Teapot design.)

    I would like to apply to jobs closer in what I do, rather than in my job title. How do I put that on my resume in a way that people will understand?

    1. Artemesia*

      On your resume can you list your job as Teapot Organizer (primarily doing light weight Teapot design). i.e. make what you actually do part of the title.

      When someone has a completely stupid title: Llama Ninja then doing this becomes obligatory. so it is Llama Ninja (llama manicurist)

      You don’t want to ‘lie’ about your job so hence the title needs to be used, but it then makes sense to clarify it as part of the title in a parenthesis).

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      If the bullet points in your resume describe what you actually do, I think people are likely to read them and respond to them, not your title. Think about how you can make the first bullet point as clear about that as possible.

      I also highlight my actual skills in the first paragraph in my cover letter, and I think you could do the same in your resumes to head hunters. “As an expert in light weight Teapot design, with skills in handles, spouts, and lids, I am looking for my next position.” (I am having a hard time with grammar, but hopefully you know what I mean.)

  65. AnnaleighUK*

    We’ve been interviewing people for an open position on our team and today we had one interviewee that… well, he stood out!

    For context’s sake, I am an average height, slight-build woman. Our interviewee was male, easily nearly a foot taller than me and built like The Rock.

    He had all the qualifications and skills we needed, which is obviously why we were interviewing him. All was fine, he impressed us with his answers right up until we asked about his hobbies. He said he likes bodybuilding (which we’d figured) and then looked at me and said ‘I could pick you up with one hand.’ Then he looked at my manager, who is also a woman and smaller of stature than me, and said ‘actually I could probably pick both of you up at the same time.’

    We laughed along with him… right up until the second he stood up and said ‘Shall I demonstrate?’ We shut that down with an instant ‘No thank you!’ and said we’d be in touch.

    That was… very odd! I’m still trying to wrap my head around the fact he was willing to lift up two women who would be his superiors if he got the job just to demonstrate how much he could lift. Apart from that, he was a really good candidate. Quirky, creepy, or massive red flag? Argh!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Definitely creepy and a perfectly valid reason not to move forward with his candidacy.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I laughed. So I guess it would depend on how it was delivered? Because reading it I was amused. Hearing it said to me I have no idea.

      1. AnnaleighUK*

        It’s a shame he did something like that because he was so good in the rest of the interview but that’s really made us go ‘ehhhh what?’ We do have more people to interview next week so we might fill the position then. My manager did say that we could always hire him then if he turns out to be the best candidate but if he turns out to be totally weird we have his probation period to decide if we want to keep him. Perfectly pleasant chap other than wanting to pick us up!

        1. MechanicalPencil*

          I’ve been thinking about it and the more I think about it the less amusing it gets. So…I’m really not sure. Definitely some rules about leaving coworkers on the ground if he does get hired. Which I guess makes your workplace a little like elementary school now.

          1. Anony*

            I would say delivery would determine if it was a red flag or yellow flag. It would definitely make me more cautious and could make me just say “nope!”. Maybe if lifting things was a part of the job…

        2. JHunz*

          Maybe he was trying to be funny, but the moment he offered to demonstrate was the moment I’d have consigned his resume to the shredder (at least mentally)

    4. Curious Cat*

      If he was totally pleasant and professional otherwise, could it maybe just have been a case of interview nerves? Maybe he’s been kicking himself ever since for saying that? Not trying to defend it, because it is odd, but if he’s otherwise been professional and fine, I’m tempted to give the benefit of the doubt.

    6. Struck by Lightning*

      Saying it in a clearly joking manner wouldn’t have bothered me at all, the actually standing up to do it (!!!!!) would be an at least yellow flag that this guy is going to need a lot of counseling on appropriate workplace behavior. If he had hard to find skills and was young enough to not be too set in his ways, it MIGHT be worth the trade off of knowing I was going to need to monitor him closing for interpersonal behavior but I’d sure try to find someone else.

    7. Yams*

      I have a lot of powerlifting friends and it’s not all too uncommon. Since I’m often the smallest of the bunch I have actually been lifted a lot. Therefore I’m way more likely than the average person to find it quirky and amusing, but in your particular case it can be a little creepy, honestly I think he may have just gotten carried away with the conversation and been a little jittery from the interview setting. If he was otherwise professional and stood down immediately after being told no without questioning or trying to push on the matter, I wouldn’t count it too harshly against him.

      1. Thlayli*

        Im kind of leaning towards the whole thing including the standing up was a joke that came out wrong. If he actually thought it would be appropriate to do that in an interview then that would be concerning. But without knowing him it’s hard to know if he was actually going to do it or if he was just trying to be funny and failing. If you think he is the best candidate, I would suggest a second interview. But like your boss says if you have a probation period you can always fire him if he turns out to be a creep.

        1. Thlayli*

          I mean, obviously you can fire him forbeing a creep anyway, but the probation period makes it easier.

      1. Bostonian*

        LOL.

        What he did would maybe be funny in a social setting, but absolutely not at work! I would say creepy (especially the whole “both at once” thing)!

    9. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Ok, when I read this, It brought to mind the commercials for Planet Fitness where the body builder guy is getting a tour of the gym and all he says is “I lift things up and put them down” — and then he’s led right out the door (as in, we don’t want you here). LOL.

    10. Louise*

      This is one of those things where it’s like… if he was willing to cross that line during his interview (when you should be on your absolutely best behavior), what lines will he cross once he has the job?

      1. beanie beans*

        That’s a good point! And if the interviewers were male, would he have done the same thing?

  66. magda*

    I have a question. Does Alison publish every update or just some? If the update is boring or really out there as an example. I really enjoy this site especially the part with the updates. I am just wondering this. Sorry if the answer is obvious. Also English is not my mother language so I hope my question makes okay sense.

    1. Forking Great Username*

      I know she doesn’t always post them right away, she hangs onto several and does a big end of the year update thing. But I once sent a pretty boring update in, and it was still posted.

    2. NaoNao*

      It’s my understanding that she publishes every update. Oftentimes the OP/updater will even specify “this is a boring update” or “you’re not going to believe what happened!” but as far as I can tell, she publishes those as well.
      Updates are extremely popular with readers and there’s no downside to publishing them, so my feeling is she does them all! Could be wrong though!

    3. Anony*

      There have been several where the update is pretty uneventful. My impression is that she publishes all or most but sometimes hangs on to them for a while to make one post with multiple updates.

  67. Long Time Reader*

    I am going to be blunt and confess that I have never really worked a day in my life. The reason is that I have an (mostly) invisible handicap and have been on benefits since I was 21 (for the record I live in Western Europe).
    I have been doing volunteering work since over a year. I work as a front-desk assistant / receptionist at a medical house (a doctor’s practice that targets people with lower income) for a few hours a week – mostly 3 & 1/2h , sometimes 7h.

    The thing is, I am mid thirty and while the benefits aren’t bad, the end of the month is always tense. So I was thinking about getting a job (and to be fair: I’m also struggling with the idea of “now or never” and perhaps with the idea that later on in life I might regret not going for it). But I do wonder what I can offer since I am already 35. I have a Bachelor degree in Journalism and a Master degree in Visual Communication but apart from the volunteering job, I have no relevant work-experience.

    To be fair, freelancing jobs in journalism, would – not literally (I hope) – kill me health-wise. This is indeed another point, I need to be picky concerning my health and not taking on any physical-heavy jobs. On the other hand, with no experience to show, some might see it as me being entitled to be so picky.

    Can you give me any tips on how to find a first job so “late” in life ? Should I mention my disability (Some say yes, others have said no when I asked professionals if I should).

    1. Bagpuss*

      Are there any options to transition from voluntary to paid work in your current organisation?
      If not, then I think looking for part time work where you can build on your current experience is likelyto be the easiest first step.

      How recently did you complete your degrees? I think that employers are likely to see a recent degree earned by you as a an older student differently to the same degree earned 10 years ago with no evidence of any relevant work experience since.

      What sort of job do you want / feel you can do? It might work best to think about where you would like to get to, and then try to ‘work backwards’ to look at how you might gain relevant experience to help you reach that point.

      on the other hand, if ideally you would like to be paid for your efforts but are reasonably happy doing what you do now, then I’d look for similar types of reception / admin work on a part time, paid basis.

    2. Super B*

      35 is young and luckily you won’t have to deal with ageism yet. If I were you I would use your current front-desk assistant experience and tailor your resume to admin assistant/ executive assistant type of jobs. They usually pay well, especially EA jobs (at least in the US, not sure in Europe). I too have a degree in Journalism but moved to the US and with English being my second language, never got into working with it. I also always knew it to be a stressful career with long hours and a lot of my skills learned in college – Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Photoshop, that stuff – can be of high value in admin positions supporting executives. It doesn’t hurt to take classes to sharp on those skills while you apply for jobs, and you may have to take a lower paying admin position at first, but by 40 you could be an EA making higher pay – you just have to put yourself out there now.

    3. Thlayli*

      Journalism doesn’t necessarily have to include investigative getting out of the house work. You could look into freelance writing jobs – opinion pieces etc. They are not well paid to being with but if you are good you make a name for yourself and work your way up I believe.

      Also I’m sure you know to do this but look into how much you can work/earn and keep your disability benefits – you may be surprised. Where I live (also EU) you can work 20 hours a week and earn a considerable amount and still be entitled to a full disability benefit.

    5. Torrance*

      Are there disability assistance groups in your area/country?

      In the States, there is something called Vocational Rehabilitation and, back when I wasn’t officially the big-D disabled, they helped me find training opportunities and connected me with an organisation that helped me locate relevant job listings and those sorts of things. It turned out to be all in vain when my condition worsened but it was somewhat useful at the time.

      The only other bit of advice I can offer is that you really shouldn’t consider yourself picky or entitled. A job isn’t worth dying for. It’s wise to recognise both your strength and your limitations. That’s not to say that there won’t be people who won’t think negatively of you but eff them. Your life is not theirs to live.

      Good luck finding your path!

      1. Jenn*

        Are you in the UK? Remploy are pretty good at helping people with disabilities into work. You’re assigned an advisor to meet with regularly and they can help with getting interviews with recommended organisations who are known to be accommodating to people with disabilities.

        Good Luck!

  68. Plague of frogs*

    A recruiter made a resume for me without my knowledge or consent, and gave it to at least one hiring manager. Is this a common practice? It really annoyed me.

    The recruiter works for EvilCorp. I have friends over at EvilCorp, and one of them had contacted me to ask me if I was interested in working there. I said no, because I’m happy with my current job. A few weeks later, my friend contacted me again, saying that his boss had just shown him my resume. My friend is the nicest guy in the world, so he didn’t sound miffed, but he said that if I had changed my mind I could always submit a resume through him. I told him I didn’t even have a current resume, and he said that in that case, a recruiter must have made one up for me from LinkedIn. An EvilCorp recruiter contacted me the same day to ask if I was interested. That confirmed to me that my friend is correct.

    I told the recruiter no and left it at that. The recruiter contacted me again, which I ignored.

    I wasn’t happy about this because:
    1) Someone I don’t know is, in a sense, representing themselves as me. What if they made a crappy resume?
    2) This had the potential to damage multiple relationships. If my friend hadn’t contacted me to ask about it, it could have damaged our friendship.
    3) I am happy in my job and I don’t want there to be rumors that I’m not.
    4) It makes me seem flaky to the hiring manager—I “submit a resume” and then I won’t come in for an interview. If I ever do want to come in for an interview, he is less likely to consider me.

    It’s been a few months so I won’t do anything about it now. But in retrospect, I wonder if I should have said something sharp to the recruiter, or contacted their manager. I certainly will never work with that recruiter now. But I wouldn’t have anyway, so it doesn’t really feel satisfying.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I can see a recruiter that you’re working with tailoring your resume for a particular job, but they should still ask you if you’re interested in that position before putting in any time or effort, much less submitting that resume. But for a recruiter that you have no agreement or relationship with? That’s pretty sleazy, IMO.

    2. ContentWrangler*

      Even if it’s been a few months, I still feel like you could contact a manager. Creating a resume for a person you haven’t even spoken with yet is sooo out of bounds for a recruiter, that if I were their manager, I would still want to hear about it even 3 months later. What if this recruiter is regularly doing this to people?

  69. stitchinthyme*

    Curiosity question: How many of you have quit jobs because a manager you liked working for left? (Doesn’t have to be the ONLY reason, but *a* reason.)

    I have done this three times. In all three instances, the company was kind of horrible, but the managers kept the worst of it from affecting me and made the environment bearable, so when they left there was no reason left for me to stay.

    Anyone else done this?

    1. Anonygrouse*

      Twice I’ve left a job either because my manager had already left or I surmised that they were planning to leave in fairly short order themselves. It was similar to your case both times, where I was somewhat insulated from a lost of toxic nastiness thanks to them, and staying without that buffer would be untenable (at least without a lot of benzos and/or a drinking problem). For one job, it was also that the manager put a lot of time into my professional development, and without that kind of mentor the position would have turned into a dead end.

    2. anonyme today*

      This is why I’m currently job hunting. I had a manager who was great and eventually left. My new manager is a very nice person but is bad at delegating tasks, to the point that I often have very little to do. I have the same title and pay, but it feels like I’ve been demoted since I’m sometimes not even aware of projects that previously would have been 100% my responsibility. I still like the company and other coworkers, but it’s no longer the job I signed up for.

    3. Overeducated*

      I have sort of indirectly – at a point when there was a lot of turnover at the higher levels, a lot of things had to basically halt and wait for leadership to settle in and set priorities, and that in turn halted my professional development and ability to take on interesting projects. It made it clear that it was time to move on faster.

    4. Kj*

      Yes, I quit a previous job because my manager got promoted and she was the reason I was staying. I didn’t mind the new manager, but I didn’t get very good supervision (a legal term in my field) from her and I was being given a lot of things to do that I was tired of doing without the extra pay people usually got for that sort of work.

    5. kittymommy*

      Once. It was at a non-profit crisis advocacy type organization and when my supervisor left the whole toxic, co-dependent environment just got too stifling for me.

      1. kmb*

        I have also done that! A favourite manager left, her boss took over managing us, he was not fab at managing, and I was hanging on and getting more and more frustrated, and had set up a skype call with my previous manager to figure out how I could deal with him, and … that was the day it was announced she would be returning! She then became my grandboss, and left this past summer due to frustrations with the senior management situation, and now I think some of that general nonsense is not running up against her pretty staunch commitment to the organizations stated values / way of doing things, so more things are happening that I think she would have been like “hold up, should we do that this way?” and those things are making me consider leaving.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      It was not directly because Former Good Boss was demoted. My New Boss was NOT professional at all. When I saw my Former Good Boss get demoted, I knew I would not thrive in this environment. So I guess the Good Boss’ leaving was the last straw for me.

    9. sometimeswhy*

      Once. The owner was awful and his sons were thieves. Our manager was good to us and ran a ton of interference. Then one day owner and manager had a screaming fight in the back office and the manager walked out. Most of the waitstaff, bussers, kitchen, scullery, and the only bartender (me!) walked out with him.

      They closed not long after. I found out later that the owner had that particular brain tumor that turns you into a raging jerk and died not long after. I still don’t regret it.

    10. Totally Minnie*

      I’ve done it once. My manager and I were both relatively new to a department that had long since turned dysfunctional and been left to its own devices for too long. The manager had been trying hard to turn things around, but 10 months of order and rules to follow can’t really make up for 10 years of the Wild West, so not a lot of headway had been made. Then my boss got promoted into a different department and I couldn’t stand the thought of being left alone with a staff full of people who resented the very idea of being expected to do their jobs. So I left too. I still have friends with that organization and I’m told the department is still a hot mess, so I definitely made the right choice.

    11. Buddythefox*

      I’m just going through this! My amazing manager left, and a few months later my entire department was restructured, which changed my role in a direction I don’t want to go in. Due to the combination of those things, I will be moving on to a new position in 2 weeks! It is sad but was honestly a great chance to learn what I do/don’t like in a job and in a boss.

    12. Anon-profit*

      In my last job (big non-profit), I was hired to join a small, fabulous team. Several years later, when I had really grown to love my org and my role, all three of my co-workers – boss, boss’s peer, and grand-boss – left over a period of six months for three different reasons. Another co-worker, who we worked with kind of peripherally, was brought in as my manager. He was pretty incompetent but mostly left me alone to do my job in peace; recognizing, I think, that he didn’t have the experience in my area to really help me. Unfortunately, they didn’t hire anyone else to replace my colleagues who had moved on, so I was left doing the jobs of my former boss and my former boss’s peer in addition to my own. They eventually (a couple *years* later) hired someone to replace my former grand-boss, but that person was also awful. It took me a while but I’ve been at a new place for a few years and I’m much happier.

      If my boss was the only one who left, I would have stayed, as the other two on my team would have handled it well and replaced him with someone great. I really think the org leadership was caught totally off-guard when they all quit, which contributed to how poorly they responded. But the loss of my entire wonderful team, and the fact that they were replaced way too slowly and by idiots, was too much.

  70. Elizabeth H.*

    I’m interested that there’s another makeup related question above because I had planned to ask a makeup question in the work open thread this week!
    I wear really basic/neutral makeup to work daily: powder foundation, eyeshadow, and finishing powder (no mascara or lip color). I am really bored with my usual makeup, particularly eyeshadow. This is what I usually wear – https://www.maybelline.com/eye-makeup/eyeshadow/expert-wear-eye-shadow-quads/designer-chocolates. I work at an art school and it’s not especially conservative – I’m comfortable trying more ‘out there’ looks as long as they are not so distracting that people can’t look away. I sometimes do hot pink but haven’t branched out that much and I’m open to lip color too. I would love to hear suggestions for interesting/fun makeup looks that are still reasonable for a workplace, if anyone else has ever thought about this!

    1. NaoNao*

      I have two suggestions:

      The clean face/bold lip look. Especially in a bright, saturated red, it can look very professional and polished without being too “out there”. So you would keep everything very understated and fresh (ie, no eye shadow, just eyelid primer) and just a wisp of foundation and blush, and then go for a high end, bold, rich red lip.

      The colored eyeliner and mascara look. Maybe start with eyeliner. I have turquoise, bright navy, rich teal, and gray as my eyeliners. I haven’t branched out into colored mascara because back in the 90s when it first came around it didn’t really show up but I’m considering giving it another shot now that pigments and formulas are likely very different. Just choose a bold, clear color such as green, blue, purple, and lightly line eyes. Finish with neutral shadow in light colors and keep rest of face understated.

      Good luck!

    2. Katie*

      I wear almost no makeup – often none at all – but I think a bright lip with otherwise-neutral makeup can be both fun and professional.

    3. Louise*

      A small cat eye and a bright lip is always fun, especially when it gets a little sunnier out! I’ve got a bit of a highlighter addiction, so when I’m feeling like I wanna be extra, I just swipe that ish on til you can see my cheekbones from across the office.

      2. SC Anonibrarian*

        Yes! I love makeup questions! It’s so regional and universal and fascinating and I have sooo many opinions.

  71. Recovering Hermione*

    I need a pep talk! I’m hoping some folks here can offer some encouragement/tips for how to not be totally miserable in a job I hate.

    I’m not doing the work I was hired to do, I’m not using my skill set, and I am leading a project that I feel is doomed to failure. My boss and another Director are the chief stakeholders in the project, they have completely different and conflicting ideas of what they want out of it, and neither of them are willing to budge. I’ve been here 11 months now and I keep thinking things will get better but they only seem to get worse.

    I thought seriously about quitting early on, but decided to stick it out (a decision I deeply regret). I feel like if I leave now, I will damage my future employment prospects because I will look like someone who quits when things are hard and who abandons their employer in the middle of major projects. But the anxiety over this job is having a huge effect on my life.

    How do I get through this?

    1. stitchinthyme*

      I would start looking for a job now. If they ask you why you want to leave, just keep it simple: “The job did not turn out to be what I was hired to do, and I am looking for something more in line with my skill set.” If they want you to elaborate, you can follow with, “They hired me to do teapot design, but I’m actually doing accounting, and accounting is not what I wanted to be doing.” Unless you have a history of job-hopping, I don’t think most employers are going to fault you for moving on when a job is not the right fit. I once left a job after four months because they didn’t give me anything to do. I kept it on my resume because I didn’t want to have a gap, but I’d tell the truth when interviewers asked me about it. As far as I know, it was never held against me; at least, I never had a problem finding a job after that.

      If you can’t/don’t want to do that, my best suggestion is to compartmentalize. Don’t take anything at work personally, and distract yourself with other things when you’re not at work so you don’t think about it too much. Do your job to the best of your ability, but don’t let work take over your life — work to live, not the other way around.

    2. Havarti*

      Listen, I’d much rather be branded as someone who leaves when the situation has gone from bad to worse than stick around and have a nervous breakdown. It’s a lot harder to find a new job when you’re piecing your physical and mental health back together. Get out. Use stitchinthyme’s script. It’s been almost a year. That’s more than enough punishment. And stop thinking things will get better if you just tough it out (sunk cost fallacy) because they won’t. Put your life vest on and get out ASAP.

      1. Havarti*

        Also, do realize that people leave companies in the middle of big projects all the time. And yet, somehow, life goes on. You don’t owe them. You’re not abandoning them. They’re grown people making very poor decisions and you don’t need to suffer for it. Bad bosses don’t deserve keeping good workers.

        1. stitchinthyme*

          ^THIS! Remember that if they decided that for whatever reason, they no longer want to employ you, they will lay your butt off without a moment’s hesitation. Alison has said many times here that losing workers is part of doing business, and no matter how indispensable you may seem, they WILL get along without you. I’ve been at plenty of places where crucial people left, and the company always figures out a way to deal with it. You need to look out for yourself, because the company certainly isn’t going to.

        2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

          Yes!! Never think that a company will not survive without you–forcing you to stay when you are not happy (or productive). Get your resume together and start sending it out. Also, look for positions in other departments at the company (if that applicable in your case). Or if worse comes to worst (and only if this is doable)– Resign. I had to do this one. But fortunately, I was able to find another job fairly quickly.

        3. zora*

          Nope, do what Havarti says!! I was in a remarkably similar situation (I am pretty sure I didn’t post this morning, but maybe I’m wrong) and I stuck it out for four years, which was WAYYYYY too long. Mostly just because of imposter syndrome scaring me from getting out there and searching. And that was way worse, because I had such a long time with no good accomplishments for my resume! So, not only all the things the toxic place did to me psychologically, but it left me in a really bad place career-wise. I didn’t have any good accomplishments because the situation meant I was prevented from accomplishing anything, PLUS a huge gap in my resume of the things I am good at and do want to do.

          Also “sticking it out when things get hard” is not something employers are really looking for. They are looking for someone who is going to accomplish amazing things in current circumstances. And you have a pretty good reason with “the job turned out to not be what I was hired for.” And be specific “It was 90% X and Y, while my skills are in A and B and that is what I am looking to do.”

          Don’t make the same mistakes I made. Start job searching now!!! Good Luck!!

      2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        Havarti is spot on – I toughed it out at a super toxic place and started job searching 3 months before the end of the contract. I should have gotten out long before, but I didn’t want to look like a quitter on my resume (yeah, wtf). Anyway, took some time to regroup but was physically destroyed for a good 4 months, to the point where I ended up taking a sub-optimal job (which I am now trying to extricate myself from) in order to recover from the stress and health issues caused by the previous one, even though I was very apprehensive about the org, the role, the industry – EVERYTHING. Since I am now unhappy with this choice I can feel the cycle starting to repeat itself, but this time you better believe I am starting to job search now AND make my health a priority.

        At the end of the day plenty of projects fail for all sorts of reasons – conflicting plans and visions are definitely high up there. If you have given it the best you could, gave it the best chance of success, tried to reconcile key issues and move it forward and still couldnt? That’s not on you at that point. Take care of yourself first!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like you are a pawn in their game. Neither one of them will budge and you get to take the hit.

      I would consider telling the big boss that because of this there is not a lot you can do to help them.

      I have seen it here numerous times where people tell prospective employers that they were not doing the work the were hired for and that seems to be an acceptable reason for leaving.

      Bail. Quit finding reasons not to bail. The anxiety will only get worse if you don’t take care of yourself by getting out of there.

    4. Green Goose*

      The same thing happened to me when I started at my current organization three years ago. My position was listed as being mostly advising (I have experience) and administrative work (I have experience)and some payroll (no experience). Well, the actual job was about 60% payroll and it was really overwhelming. I spoke with my boss about it and he basically said that this is what the role was and I could leave if it was a problem.
      I ended up sticking it out, and that manager is now gone, and I actually like my role a lot now. For you, if the work is absolutely not what you want to be doing I think you should speak with your boss to suss out if the work you are doing now is temporary and/or when will you start with the work you are hired to do. And if its clear that your current work is your permanent work, then its fine to leave.
      If you are constantly jumping from job to job, that could be a problematic trend, but its fine to leave a job that is not a good fit. In future job interviews you can always spin it to your passion.
      If they ask why you were at a job for a short period of time, you could say.
      “I was originally hired at OldJob to do teapot design, which is my passion and why I took the role. However, the needs of the organization changed quite quickly after I started and my role was converted to teapot sales. While I am able to do teapot sales, my passion and drive are with teapot design and I wanted to move to another organization where I could continue to do that type of work.”

  72. Anonim*

    Anyone else every experience having a co-worker who seems to think they are your boss/manager when they are not? My company has gone through a lot of changes in the past year in our office and had a lot of title changes, etc. Basically myself and this coworker are on totally different but interdependent teams and he can assign work to me but inversely I can also assign work to him. He’s not in my (for lack of a better descriptor) chain of command; I report directly to C level as does he. He does technically have a “higher” job title than me (think senior in the title which I don’t have but I don’t have junior in my title or anything) but otherwise we’re even. It’s only come up every once in a while where I realized he thinks I’m one of his reports but during those moments it is awkward. Additionally, he also sometimes utilizes me for things that aren’t mine to do; I’m supposed to be utilized for putting on tea pot handles, researching the best ways to put on tea pot handles, talking to tea pot handle makers but he’ll sometimes ask me to do tasks more in line with like office administrative things or something a receptionist might do. I’m not afraid to push back if I’m swamped with work from my bosses or direct him to someone else who is more in line with those job duties but it kind of leaves me feeling gross because I am a young female employee (but I’ve been with this company for quite a long time now and in this industry a bit longer than that so I’m not junior or inexperienced) and he’s an older male employee. He’s generally nice about it and not condescending; he really does seem to genuinely think in the org chart I am part of this team. But I’m not so it always feels a bit like an age and gender thing.

    1. Anonim*

      And also a lot of times I’ll just do the task that isn’t part of my job because it’s easy and won’t take much time which probably doesn’t help the perception.

    2. Artemesia*

      Don’t do those admin tasks or they become your job. Always have urgent tea pot handle work so you won’t be able to get to that task. Are there admins? If so, suggest he give the work to Sylvia as you are totally covered up with research on teapot handles all week.

    3. Bagpuss*

      Could you have a conversation with him about it (preferably at some point when neither of you is snowed under) – say something like;
      ‘I’ve noticed that at times, to allocate work to me as if I were your subordinate or one of your team members.Obviously when you have work for my team, such as [example] it’s appropriate for you to let me know, and request that I arrange for my team to do the work, just as when I have work which needs to be done by your team, it’s appropriate for me to give that work to you.
      However, when you give me work which you ought to be allocating to someone in your team, it causes delay. I’ve notices that you’ve specifically asked me to [examples] – that kind of work should normally be given to [Admin] or to one of your subordinates. Can you try to make sure that you do that, going forward?” If you want, you can a in something about how you know it can be confusing with all the rearrangements we’ve been having – and even say ‘you do know I’m not part of your team?’

      Then after that, if he does it again, just return it to him with a brief note – “Can you allocate this to someone in your own team, please, it’s not a [your team] matter” or “This is not something that falls under my responsibility, as [Your job Title] – you’d need to speak to [name of Admin / reception], or get someone in your own team to deal with it”
      Then don’t do it.
      If you do, then it is likely to become your job, or the job of any other women in the group, and to reinforce his idea that he has that authority. if you don’t do it and he complains, then you’ve covered yourself by responding to remind him it isn’t your role.

      i think that if he doesn’t accept this then it would be reasonable for you to peak to your own manager and explain the issue and how you are dealing with it, and ask for support., Do you share a boss, and are they likely to be reasonable about it?

    4. cactus lady*

      Just say no. You don’t have time, you’re a busy lady. You can push back because you have your own work to do even if you’re not “swamped”. “I’m happy to help with xyz but you should talk to the receptionist about abc”.

      I had a situation like this but to a more extreme degree and I ended up getting my manager involved to clarify our roles to my colleague.

      1. zora*

        YES. Or “Oh, actually, ABC are not my responsibility, you can ask Jane or Fergus to help with those kinds of things.”

  73. Cat*

    Any occupational therapists here?
    I’m considering applying to grad school for it. Any perspectives from you or someone you know would be appreciated :)

    1. Kj*

      I work with a lot of OTs. The job is pretty cool and there are a number of places you can work, from school to hospitals to nursing home to private practice. Hours are generally like a doctor’s. Pay is good. You can pick your population, I work with kids so the OTs I work with work with kids too, but OTs work with the elderly often too.

      1. HannahS*

        Seconded. I’m not an OT but I seriously considered it, in part because the scope of what they can do is so large.

    2. ManderPants*

      My roommate is in school for it at Bay State College in a two year program. During his first summer between classes he had a “glorified internship” and now in his last semester he’s doing it again during school months but with more responsibility somewhere else. Lots of group work. He seems to be always studying and it can be quite brutal as you can imagine with needing to score ~85% to continue. During practical tests working on a “patient” and forgetting something important can be an automatic failure. I’ve heard stories where he juuuust scraped by (by pickung up a patient entirely and putting them in a wheelchair so they didn’t touch the ground, because they weren’t wearing hospital grip socks and therefore couldn’t touch the ground. The prof saw he realized his mistake and worked around it….barely!) Other times he’d say he was doing something, and the prof would ask about his reasoning why. He knew it was a procedure but couldn’t quite remember why. Stuff like that.

      1. Cat*

        Good to know! I used to work at a nursing school so this sounds pretty standard haha. In a way I’m glad that education for healthcare is so rigorous, from the patient’s perspective. Thank you very much for responding!

    3. I'm an OT!*

      Occupational therapy is a great field! I’ve been an OT for over 30 years, and have appreciated the opportunities to work in various settings without having to return to school. Of course, I’ve taken continuing education courses along the way to develop my clinical skills. Now is a good time to get your degree; last year it was announced that OT will be moving to a doctorate degree effective 2027. If you get your masters now, you will be grandfathered in and will not have to get a doctorate. I would be glad to answer specific questions!

      1. Cat*

        Thank you so much for offering to answer questions about the field – I would love that! I can be reached at ncbound12345 @ gmail.com. (No spaces)

  74. Tina*

    How do you deal with a manager who’s so into being positive that she’s no longer dealing in reality?
    This manager responds to specific questions with vague, nice-sounding platitudes and it’s impossible to get an answer out of her, and that can have serious effects.
    Our team has metrics that we were having a very hard time hitting–the job was calling smokers who’d been sent to us by their workplace insurance, often unknowingly– and getting them to 1) sign up and 2) give a random stranger they weren’t expecting a call from their Social Security Number, address, etc. Stuff we already had and we were just verifying but they had no reason to know this. The companies were supposed to let their workers know but this last batch clearly hadn’t been told anything about it.
    A few of us came up to her and said “I’m really concerned about hitting our numbers this time around, this last batch is very angry about the calls and it doesn’t seem like their workplace even told them about the program.” She’d respond with “just do your best!” or “All you can do is all you can do!” And we’d sit there blankly for a moment and go “alright but…we’re not being judged on doing our best right? We need strategies, any ideas?” And she’d respond with more of the same, assuring them it was fine. Then a bunch of my team didn’t hit their numbers and got laid off. I asked her about this because a bunch of us had been told it was fine and they really just needed us to do our best and she went “Oh well if I’m really positive that will drive up morale and everyone will do better!”

    We also got a script written for us to follow that was over a page long of just us talking, and if someone on the phone interjected with a question we were instructed to just ignore it and keep reading the script. It was ridiculous — when we call, people want to know who we are, why we’re calling, how we got their info, etc, but the script was this long, long launch into the history of our company, followed by statistics of how many people we’d helped etc, the whole thing took about 5 minutes. Would you sit quietly on your phone for 5 minutes to hear someone else clearly reading a script and saying “I’ll get to that in one moment” when you ask them questions and then they just ignore you? Of course not, no one would. We told her in the meeting we were given the script that there is no way this would work, we were all very upset and she’s like “now everyone calm down. Think positive! If you think positive, you can do ANYTHING!” and she forced us to use the script, which obviously crashed and burned. This resulted in a ton of us getting let go for not hitting our numbers.

    I worked with her for 2 years before I was finally in a position to leave. I don’t think she was faking it; I really believe that she believes if you put out “positive vibes” you can overcome any circumstance. She also got to be a manager by working my job at a time when it was only a smoking cessation program within a single insurance provider, who only called people on that insurance who had specifically requested calls. What worked for her really couldn’t be applied to our situation because it had changed so much. I felt like if you tried to talk to her about us needing more direct input from her and that the positivity was sort of conflicting with that, you were written off as a big meanie who just liked being negative. She was also really really into The Secret (no surprise there) and would bring it up at work instead of giving us actual advice on the situations we were facing. Anyone here experienced something similar?

    1. Forking Great Username*

      I had already determined she was into the Secret before ou even said it. Unfortunately, I don’t know that it’s possible to reason with someone that buys into their strategy to that extent! Sounds very frustrating.

    2. Artemesia*

      She did this because she has no idea what to do. There was no helpful advice to be had from her. Glad you were able to get out.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. She had no clue. Leaving was the best answer. I hope you told her to cheer up someone else would take your spot.

  75. Forking Great Username*

    I asked part of this question last week, but it was at the end and got pretty buried, so I’m throwing it out there again.

    How do you develop a thicker skin for criticism? Is there ever a good way to ask your boss to change the way they critique your work? I’m student teaching, and my cooperating teacher has told me that I’m doing a great job, she’s just nit picking to help me fine tune everything. That makes sense and I get it, but the way she goes about it drives me a bit nuts. Basically all day she’ll interject little criticisms – it’s often when I’m in the middle of teaching. Like I’ll go to the desk to grab a pen, worksheets, etc., and she’ll quietly tell me that I need to make sure I’m projecting my voice all the time/point out that one of my sentences trailed off/tell me she would have done X before Y…you get the idea.

    It throws me off when I get a critique in the middle of the lesson – I need to immediately continue with what I’m teaching, but I’m also trying to process the feedback. I wish she would tell me these things between classes instead of during class – it’s high school, so there’s an opportunity for feedback between classes every hour.

    I always thought I did well handling criticism, but I’m finding it harder right now. I suppose that’s because I’ve never had a situation where it’s someones job to watch me, just me, all day, and give me constructive criticism on literally everything I do. She is starting to leave the room when I’m teaching more frequently, so I’m hoping that between that and my making improvements, this will get better on its own. But realistically, I’m always going to have room for improvement (can anyone give presentations for hours a day, five days a week, and never lose their train of thought or jumble a word?) This is probably part vent, but I welcome any advice, or just people letting me know if this would bug them too or if it’s just me.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It doesn’t sound as if you need to develop thicker skin. It sounds as if you just need to tell this to your cooperating teacher:
      It throws me off when I get a critique in the middle of the lesson – I need to immediately continue with what I’m teaching, but I’m also trying to process the feedback. I wish she would tell me these things between classes instead of during class – it’s high school, so there’s an opportunity for feedback between classes every hour.

      You are perfectly willing to accept and take to heart criticism. You just need it at an appropriate time.

      1. Curious Cat*

        +1, it sounds like you just need to talk with her about how you’re open and of course want the feedback, but how it could best help you by being delivered in between classes instead of during. Just sounds like different styles conflicting with each other, is all.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yes, and honestly your cooperating teacher may not even realize she’s doing this. Something occurs to you, you come over, and she just whisper-blurts something to you. As long as you aren’t overly hostile/accusatory and she’s a semi-reasonable person, her reaction is likely to be “Of course. I didn’t even realize I was doing that. I’ll keep my notes until you’re done with class.”

          Just so you know, I’ve been observed many times (by mentor teachers, department heads, etc.), and I’ve never had someone interrupt me in the middle of class to offer feedback. They usually just sit quietly in the corner taking notes and then debrief with me after class or even after school or the next day.

          1. Forking Great Username*

            In general she’s reasonable – the reason I’m hesitating here and wanted to make sure other artists thought this was an okay thing to ask is that in my interview, she asked more than once about how I handle constructive criticism. She also explained that she’s had issues in the past with student teachers who can’t handle constructive criticism. So now with this situation, I’m wondering on whose end that problem was actually coming from.

            1. Anonymous Educator*

              Well, you can do only what you can do. I think you just need to be really clear that you’re very receptive to all the criticism, but it’s really about the timing, and you’d much prefer to get it after class and not during. If she then decides that means you aren’t able to take criticism, that’s on her… and would really indicate that she can’t take criticism.

      2. when it rains...*

        Totally agree with anonymous educator. Also, corrections in the middle of a lesson can seriously undermine you in front of the students.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yes, even if she’s whispering it softly so the students can’t hear it, they know that some “more real” teacher is talking down to the student teacher in the middle of class about something that apparently can’t wait. It screams “This teacher needs help and isn’t ready to teach us,” even if that’s not at all what the cooperating teacher means to do.

      3. Thlayli*

        Yes this. It’s not a problem with your thick skin. It is genuinely distracting to be given criticism like this. I have a super thick skin and I would be really distracted and thrown off my game if someone was interrupting my flow of thought every few minutes to criticise minor issues.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Oh, that would SO bother me and throw me off my game. In a past role I presented a ton, and if anyone said anything critical to me during the meeting or during a break, it would have had a real effect on my flow. You say you have the opportunity for feedback between classes… any way you can formalize that? Say, “I appreciate your feedback so much and it’s been really helpful. But I can absorb it better if we take time between classes to talk– that way I can take notes and ask you questions. Can we switch to doing that?”

    3. Nancy*

      I’m a teacher who has trained many student teachers over the last 20 years. I wouldn’t give feedback in the way your supervising teacher is doing it, and I think you are quite reasonable to object to it. I think you should be able to tell her what you said here – you appreciate the feedback, but getting it in the moment makes it harder to process so could you meet briefly after class to go over things instead. She may think that this approach is more low-key and less stressful than a subsequent review of the lesson, but she should be willing to listen and adjust her approach if she is good at her job.

  76. SurpriseScarf*

    Struggling this week. My current task is to understand why our sales report numbers don’t match up. I feel like I’m losing my mind trying to get to the bottom of it, and this is my 5th day trying to figure it out! Where is the line between “this is good enough” and “I’m knowingly reporting some false sales numbers (+/- .4% of sales volume)?”

    Also, I’ve been trying to find a data analyst position for 10 months and I haven’t come up with anything, but I put in 10 apps this past week. Advice and good vibes appreciated.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Take that number (.4%– but the actual dollar amount) and see if it is evenly divisible by 9.

      Ex. Let’s say your actual dollar amount is $27. Well, 27 divides by 9 evenly and equals 3.

      If your number divides evenly by 9, then you have two numbers somewhere that are transposed. Like 325 should be 352. OR one of your number is missing a zero at the end.

      Go get a drink of water, move around and then come back and take a look.

      1. SurpiseScarf*

        It’s number of items sold – so I have one report saying my store sold 5000 products when another report says we sold 4980. And another report that says 5100, etc. even though the same parameters (that I can see) are on all three.

  77. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

    Question for those in the Publishing field. I’m a long-time administrative assistant looking to get a position as an Editorial Assistant. when I look at the requirements, it seems as if a good deal of the job is administrative. My question is, could I parlay my administrative assistant experience to an editorial assistant position?

    1. IKnowRight?*

      Hi, I worked in publishing for about 8 years. Yes, you could probably parlay your experience in to an EA job. Be aware that EA jobs generally pay terribly but are still difficult job to get, and, at least in higher ed publishing, the next step in your career is often sales, rather than being able to move right in to an assistant editor role. For those reasons, I ended up working in production project management, which I found satisfying and better paying.

      1. Super B*

        EA jobs can pay really well depending on where you live! I’m in the Bay Area and make $75k plus 5% bonus and that’s low – I know EAs in San Francisco making $120K+. It’s a great career path if you are into it!

        1. Super B*

          I just realized EA stands for ‘Editorial Assistant’. in this case. I mean Executive Assistant. Sorry about that :)

      3. ANon*

        Worked at a book publishing company in NYC and can confirm that competition for jobs is high, the pay is low (expect low $30k), and the workload intense. At the company I worked for, you could definitely stay in editorial after an EA position without going to sales or another department.

        You can definitely transfer skills. Keep in mind, though, that internships are huge in the publishing industry; I think nearly all of the EAs at my company had had an internship at another publishing company or literary agency before getting the job. Any chance you’d be able to take on a part-time internship while you work as an administrative assistant?

          1. ANon*

            Not sure what your time constraints are, but if they’re limited then I recommend contacting some literary agencies to see if you can intern for them. You may be able to review submissions and write readers’ reports remotely.

        3. K.*

          Agreed. Worked in trade book publishing for years on the marketing side. EA jobs paid around $35K max, depending on the size of the publishing house. One of my good work friends went from marketing to editorial (same publishing house, same imprint) and started as the assistant to a senior editor, which included a great deal of admin work. My friend is now a senior editor and her assistant interned in college (my friend hired her right out of college). I have a few editor friends who climbed the ranks through editorial.

    2. Wishtree deserved the Newbery*

      Late to this party but admin work definitely carries over to editorial assistant. A lot of what they do is read through the slush pile, prepare p&ls, help with calendars, edits, etc. Entry level salary is $33-40 depending on the house, some are lower.

      That said, the average EA posting gets 100+ resumes in the first week so I would recommend tailoring your resume and cover letter to the exact imprint you’re applying to (EX: listing some of the major or well-reviewed books that imprint has published recently, or excitement about upcoming books) and sign up for newsletters like Publishers Lunch, Publishers Weekly, and Shelf Awareness. The more you know about the imprint and even the specific authors/books the hiring editor acquires, the more you’ll stand out.

  78. bluelyon*

    Can someone confirm whether a week of looking at all the Eagles paraphenilia on my desk is sufficient to qualify as being a good sport? I’m a pats fan and my *charming* colleagues decorated with a ton of go eagles things when they won last week.
    It was pretty funny Monday but now I want them gone.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Yes, I think a week of this is enough. I’d pack them up and return them to the likeliest colleague and cheerfully say, “see you next season!” or something.

    4. paul*

      I wouldn’t have batted an eye if you’d cleared it at the end of the first day….I may have left a printout of Wentz and Foles with the Lombardi on a coworker’s desk Monday myself…

    6. rocklobstah*

      I feel ya. We still have Christmas shit up in our office. I hate Christmas and feel like going on a rampage to throw all this cruft out.

      1. bluelyon*

        Trust me I contemplated it… but I decided I would get more enjoyment out of how baffled they were that I went along with it….. we have a clique of “cool girls” … I am very much not in it

  79. Alex*

    For people who have left their jobs to relocate for their partner’s career, what was your experience? Did you find a job in your field in the new place? Did you do a career pivot? Did you go back to school? Stay at home? Are you happy with what you chose? What would you do differently? Thanks.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I had to do this only once, and I ended up having to do a super-long commute for a year, because there were no jobs for me near where my spouse went back to school. No regrets on that front. Yes, the long commute sucked, but you have to support each other.

    2. A. Ham*

      I did this almost three years ago. It was really scary and overwhelming- I work in a pretty niche industry, and I had no idea whether or not (or how quickly) I would be able to find a job. Luckily we moved to a city with relatively low cost of living, and my husband got a great job (thus the decision to make the move) so we were able to survive with me being unemployed for awhile. It took me 5 months to get a job (well, 4 months to find it, and another to get hired). Those months were pretty awful – in a new city, not knowing anyone, and not doing anything- I didn’t see a light at the end of the tunnel. But in hindsight, that wasn’t a very long time at all, and I actually love my current job way more than I liked my previous one in former city. And now we really love our new adoptive home. In the end it worked out for the absolute best.
      Good luck!

      1. Katie*

        My now-husband’s moved for my career twice.
        1. We both moved to new cities about six months after we started dating – job for him, grad school for me. He started looking for a job in my city about 18 months later and moved when he found a job in his field my city about six months after that.
        2. He telecommuted to his old job for a couple of years after we moved, then eventually found a job in his field (though different subfield) in the new city.

    3. KR*

      I left a great job to relocate across the country where my spouse was stationed. It is in an economically depressed rural area, an hour away from the nearest city. I was out of work for four months. I had never been out of work that long. I got very depressed. Our finances were tight because we weren’t used to living on so little money. Now I have my job and I love it so much, and I’m so happy I have this job and not the one I had before for a variety of reasons. And it’s so worth it to be with my spouse.

    4. NeverNicky*

      I didn’t actually leave my job when I relocated to be with my partner – my organisation suggested I could work from home when I talked to my boss about planning for me to leave within the year.
      It’s working really well. I spend 3 days a month back in the office to keep in touch.
      I don’t think I’d do much different – maybe have talked to my employer sooner (partner and I did the LDR thing for several years for various reasons)

    5. NW Mossy*

      I was very fortunate that I had a long time to think about this situation when it came up for me. My spouse was finishing a Ph.D. and accepted a job offer about 6 months before he actually started, so I had additional time to do research on employment options in our new area. They weren’t numerous in my niche field, but I ended up being able to coordinate an interview with an apartment-hunting trip we’d already planned and got the job offer about a month before we moved. It was a huge weight off my mind to set out from my home region knowing that there was already gainful employment waiting for me. I ended up taking about 3 weeks to move cross-country and settle in, which I strongly recommend if timing and finances allow.

      That was 8 1/2 years ago, and I’m still at the same company. Much as I loved the job I left, working for a bigger organization has given me a lot more advancement opportunities than I would have had at the small business I left. I really lucked out, and my adopted home is so wonderful that I can’t imagine ever wanting to live anywhere else.

    6. Sopranistin*

      We have relocated twice for my husband’s job, both were big career steps and substantial raises. Plus, his salary is and always will be 2-3x more than mine, so it’s made the most sense for us. Both times I was unemployed for 4-6 weeks and then worked an unrelated job (retail/food service) for a few months to pay the bills. During that time, I’d actively job search and eventually found jobs in my field. It’s definitely disheartening being under- or unemployed for a while, and our finances took a hit each time.
      Thankfully we knew people in our new locations, another reason the moves made sense for us. Even then, it feels lonely for a long time, moving to a new place. Making friends and finding a community takes time.
      It’s worked out for the best, but I hope we never have to go through it again. We’re both happy where we are now.

    7. Ann O.*

      I didn’t have any problems work wise, but I’ll be the cautionary tale of things not working great to counter other people’s happy ending stories. I was really happy where we used to live and felt very integrated and valued within our social community. We’ve been where we live now for almost a decade, and I have acquaintances but no friends. Things certainly could be worse, but I feel isolated and lonely a lot.

      In my case, I did know that I didn’t like the area we were moving to, but my husband didn’t get any offers anywhere else. His salary, benefits, and overall security of his work were waaaaay better than mine, so it didn’t make much sense to have him give up work to stay. In retrospect, I wish I had taken the possibility that he wouldn’t get a job in our area more seriously and talked through potential places to move more.

    8. Buddythefox*

      We moved across the country for my husband to start his PhD, and it was extremely hard, but it ended up being a great chance for me to do a pretty big career shift. I was previously working in a job I didn’t love, but with the BEST managers and office environment. I probably would have stayed there forever despite not liking my actual work, because the co-workers and management were so great. Making the move really forced me to take a second look at what I want career-wise, and it took me about 4 months to find a position in my new industry. I’m still on the very entry-level side, so I just hopped from an entry-level role in one industry to another industry. The hardest part has been leaving friends and family and struggling to find a social network.

  80. Super B*

    Working from home: does anyone who does it actually wish they didn’t? I’ve done both and now I’m in a job that requires me to be at the office 8:30-5 with a 30 min break and no flexibility with that, but I think getting out of my funk, putting on nice clothes and make up and driving to work has been really good for my overall self esteem, even if this is not my dream job (I don’t know what my dream job is, so al is cool). My commute is only 10-15 minutes driving and parking is free, so I guess that helps.
    I was recently offered the chance to work another job (similar pay & benefits) where I’d be working from home 100% of the time. I’m torn between having the freedom to do laundry and exercise during the day at work-from home job and the self-esteem boost that being in an office surrounded by other adults. Thoughts?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Any chance you could afford some time at a co-working space? That way you can still have your laundry and exercise days, but you can also have your dress-up-and-see-people days. A friend of mine opted for that with her new job and she’s really happy with the arrangement. She pays for it out of her own pocket.

    2. SallytooShort*

      I don’t currently but I previously did. I HATE working from home.

      It’s just not for me at all. I like the structure of going into the office. I like having my work and home life separate (and I know some people have areas dedicated just for work but that is definitely not enough for me.) I like the social interaction. I like being able to easily bounce idea off a co-worker and having them do so to me.

      I would just never do it again.

      I think everyone is different. And you need to think about what works for you.

  81. Tris Prior*

    Is there any way possible to find out, before taking a job, whether they’re reasonable about the fact, that, occasionally in life, one might need to make a personal phone call during business hours? Without sounding like a huge slacker who’s going to be on your phone all day long?

    Boyfriend’s company forbids all personal calls other than during their 30-minute lunch (which often isn’t enough time to get a task done). It puts a lot of pressure on me to make the calls instead, because my boss doesn’t care as long as the work’s getting done, and there are some things I literally cannot do since we’re not married and don’t share accounts.

    He’s looking (for many, many other reasons besides his inability to make a necessary phone call once in a while), but how do you even ask the question in an interview, or more likely after the offer is made, other than general “what is the work-life balance like here” questions?

    1. NaoNao*

      “Can you tell me a little about any restrictions you have in the workplace, such as white lists for websites, personal phone use, breaks, things like that?”

      3. beanie beans*

        To me this sounds like a weird question to ask because it implies that you’re already thinking about web surfing and making personal phone calls during work.

        Could it be phrased it a little different but still get the same answer? “Can you tell me a little about the workplace expectations for the position? Such as work schedule, flexibility, desk setup, other restrictions? (and hopefully they would either tell you or you could get a feeling for how restrictive their rules are?)

    2. Irene Adler*

      Ask to read the employee manual. State that your acceptance of the job offer is contingent upon your being given a copy of the employee manual to read.

  82. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    For those of you who have done/are doing fertility treatments and working, what do you say about time off for frequent doctor’s appointments?

    I’m part of a small team (just me, my boss and one coworker) and my boss will definitely ask if something is wrong if I’m going to the doctor all the time. I’m fairly healthy and when I take time off for appointments I usually tell her “dentist” or “I’m getting LASIK!” or whatever. But I don’t really want to talk about things like “egg retrieval” at work. (Doubly so because my partner and I are starting the process now because we’re already mid 30s, but plan to freeze the embryos for a few years before trying to get pregnant, so it’s not like this is going to result in a baby in the next year.) I realize now that I maybe should have been more circumspect from the get-go, but vague “medical procedure” is going to sound super cagey I think at this point.

    1. Anon,Anon, Anon*

      Can you make something up that is vague, non-threatening and close to true? I am pregnant (just posted about it below) and due to my history, I’m being tested all the time in the first couple months. I’ve been saying “the docs saw something at my physical and want to do more testing- no big deal, but I need to go!” That makes people feel like they have info, BUT not too much. And most people have enough shame to not ask further questions. If coworker does, I’d say, “I’m not ready to talk about it- I’m sure you understand.”

    2. Anon Anon*

      I just went through this last fall. First, I tried to get the first appointment of the day at my clinic, so that I could arrive to work pretty close to on time (my clinic had 7a.m. appointments, so I could almost always make it to work by 8a.m. to 8:30a.m.), and then I told my boss I needed a medical procedure and that the date was uncertain (I also lied and told my boss that I got a cancellation slot).

      I’m doing a FET later this spring, and that is easier to manage as it’s fewer appointments and you have a much better sense of when a transfer will occur.

    3. DCompliance*

      I try to do all my blood work 1st thing in the morning before work. Before the egg retrieval you are usually going in for ultrasounds and blood work. Is it possible to work a flex schedule before those two weeks?

  83. when it rains...*

    Any advice on returning to a former employer? In August, I left a decent job at a small but underfunded non-profit I really liked for another job at a big and well funded non profit which promised a shorter commute to the home office and half the number of field sites to visit. It turned out to be a huge mistake. (Bait and switch, toxic boss, horrible morale….) I left the first company on great terms and stayed in touch. Due to some restructuring, my old job is no longer available but I did interview last week for a different position. I might be a bit nervous because I haven’t heard back from them yet.
    Any advice?

  84. Earthwalker*

    Affirmative action question. I joined Old Job in the big downturn and considered myself lucky to get a job at the only place left in town that used my skillset. Right off the bat, though, men in project teams to which I was assigned told me I was affirmative action. “You’re not a REAL ” They left me out of meeting invitations and forgot to share project information with me. When I found work that needed doing, someone would say “Don’t do that! That’s my job! You just go do some paperwork or something.” I told my manager over and over that someone else was doing the work that he had assigned me and he would just say, “Oh, that’s good, it’s getting done, let them do it,” leaving me with long stretches of time when I had no assignment or role-based work to do before another go-around on the next project. I struggled with this for several years but eventually got an opportunity and left. Recently I met a very talented woman just hired at Old Job and was surprised to hear her say that she’d been told she was “just affirmative action.” With her skills in a hot employment market, she can move on whenever she wants, I suspect. But it reminds me of the question that’s been bugging me ever since my “You’re not a REAL employee” days: what tactics do others use to deal with “You’re just affirmative action. You’re not supposed to do real work,” other than finding another job? Seems like someone ought to stay to fight for change but I felt like I was trying to break a brick wall with my head, and I’m dismayed to hear that the wall is still there.

    2. Thlayli*

      Yeah I’m pretty sure affirmative action is illegal in theUS now. And the EU. If you’re in one of those two places, I would pushback big time. Look up the law where you are and then talk to your manager and find out straight up if you are actually an “affirmative action” hire. That may help you make a decision about what to do next.

      1. fposte*

        There have been different state challenges to different flavors of affirmative action; it’s not correct to say it’s straight out illegal in the U.S. The legal version of affirmative action, however, isn’t “put an underrepresented person on the books and call it a day”–the problem with what they’re doing isn’t the connection to affirmative action, it’s the discriminatory treatment of an employee.

      2. Lora*

        Doesn’t matter legal or not, the people who say things like this are a-holes who wouldn’t know an affirmative action hire from their elbow.

        I am sorry to say, finding another job is pretty much the least personally stressful option. And let your whole entire network know about what a-holes work at Old Job.

      3. ket*

        I don’t think this is useful. To people like the coworkers described above, every woman and every minority ever is an affirmative action hire, even if they have better credentials than the guys there. Cutting someone out of work assignments, not sharing papers and calendar invites and meeting notifications, that sort of thing — that’s a bad work environment and it *doesn’t matter* if you actually were an ‘affirmative action’ hire or not. When you deal with those people, you need a good manager who will basically say, “I don’t care what you think and I don’t care what you say at home, but at work you need to be professionals.” If you don’t have a good manager, you’ll often have to find a new job. Every now and then you can have one of these throwdown moments and show your alpha self and become part of the pack… but sometimes that’s impossible.

        This is not about how you were hired. It is about people discriminating against you in the workplace. As a woman mathematician, I’ve seen this a lot. People (men and women) will say, “Oh, you’ll get a job no matter what — *everyone* wants to hire a woman these days.” And then all the jobs will go to young men “with potential” (1 published paper) instead of women like me who “haven’t yet established themselves” (3 published papers) and once the women finally get a job they’ll be told they got it because of their secondary sex characteristics instead of their qualifications. Take the names off of resumes/CVs and it’s very clear. I’ve been told I’m an “affirmative action” recipient so many times it’s nauseating. For almost all of the hoops I’ve jumped through, affirmative action is not a thing.

      4. Thlayli*

        I am certain Alison has mentioned more than once that it’s illegal to hire or not hire someone on the basis of something like their gender or race. I think she also said on the basis of disability though I’m not certain how that would interact with things like reasonable accommodation. So I don’t think OP can be an “affirmative action hire” in the US. I also know for a fact that hiring someone based on these things is illegal in the EU. However we don’t know where OP is (she may have mentioned elsewhere in comments but I haven’t seen). I’m oretty sure in some countries affirmative action is not only legal it has at times been mandated by law (for example in South Africa a few years ago it was a legal requirement for at least some organisations to hire a certain amount of black people – I don’t know if this is still the case). I don’t like assuming people’s location without knowing and I think the way OP deals with this would be different depending on whether she actually is an “affirmative action hire” or not. Time the very first thing to do is to give out is that actually the case.

        If it turns out OP is not an affirmative action hire – eg if she lives in a country where that is illegal – then the solution is simple. She reports these a-holes including her boss for straight-up discrimination and possibly harrassment depending on the specifics of their behaviour.

        On the other hand, if OP is actually an affirmative action hire, the situation is a bit more complicated. In that situation the next step I personally would take would be to find out if I actually am qualified to do the work or if I was hired to meet a quota and have not got the necessary skills. I would have a straight up conversation with my boss about whether they think I need any additional training in order to actually do my job. This would be a tricky one because in some cases “affirmative action hires” are totally capable of doing the work, but the inherent racism or sexism or ableism or whatever means their boss thinks they are not capable. But in some cases they are not able to find anyone in the affirmative action class who is capable of doing the job, and so they do actually just hire someone to meet a quota. So you would have to really figure out in that case whether you are at the standard already, or if you need some additional training. If you are at the standard but your boss thinks you are not, it’s back to going to a higher level or HR or whatever. If you are actually not at the standard, you need to work with your boss to come up with a plan to get there. Whether that be training or working in a more junior role than your title suggests for a while.

        Tl;dr it’s possinke that OP is not an affirmative action hire and these guys are just bigoted jerks, including her boss. But it’s also possible that OP is an affirmative action hire, and it’s even possible that she would benefit from additional training and support to grow into her role. The first step is to figure out which is the truth.

    3. NylaW*

      That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. She should go to HR immediately and tell them what has been said. Which makes me curious if you ever told you manager why others were doing your work, and they said to you about being an affirmative action hire? A good manager would have quashed that immediately.

      1. Earthwalker*

        I told my manager about being left off meeting announcements and left out of the information loop, but I did not say “They said I was affirmative action and told me that I was supposed to look busy but not do real work.” I believed from things that happened and all the hallway talk that he must already know, and since he wasn’t acting on it, he approved. I confess that at the time I felt so low and ashamed that I couldn’t face his explanation if I did ask. But this was awhile back when such workplace behavior was still fairly common. I’m rather floored to think that women today are *still* hearing it.

  85. Anon,Anon, Anon*

    I just learned I’m 6 weeks pregnant. This is good news for me personally and we are hopefully it will work out. But professionally, I’m worried. I’m an independent contractor at a facility that cares for injured teapots. I knew going in I don’t get maternity leave, but I am wondering when I need to tell them I am expecting. In a normal job, I’d share at about 12 weeks. But I’m worried they won’t give me teapots to care for if they think I’m not going to be able to finish the job. Caring for teapots takes about 6 months on average, so if I tell them at 12 weeks, I might not get new work until I return. I usually work faster than other teapot repairers, so I am not worried about not being able to do my job and help my teapots- I can help teapots in 3-4 months, on average, but they aren’t good at tracking that. I’m also specialize in a type of teapot that few people want to touch, so maybe that will help. But I am wondering if it makes sense to hide the pregnancy for even longer, maybe until I’m closer to 20 weeks. Thoughts?

    1. LavaLamp*

      I have no advice to offer, but the image I got of a teapot needing a spout or handle glued back on and looking very grumpy about it just made my day.

    2. Artemesia*

      I did not show till 5 mos for my first pregnancy and didn’t have morning sickness; if you have my luck no reason to disclose till then. Depending on your build, you may be able to conceal pregnancy by how you dress for up to 6 mos. Unless you work with hazardous materials there is no need to disclose until it is obvious. And by then you will have work projects that see you through to delivery. Perhaps you will be able to negotiate an unpaid leave. No reason at all to disclose at 12 weeks; tell your mother right away or at 12 weeks, but your workplace has no need to know until much later. Hope everything goes great.

      1. Anon,Anon, Anon*

        Thanks! I’m worried I about concealing it- I’m very small-boned, but I do wear loose dresses a lot now. I know they’ll want me back, that isn’t a concern, thank god. But I really want a nest egg before I give birth. I don’t go to work until 2pm most days, so my slight morning sickness hasn’t been an issue.

    3. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      Thanks for answering me above. :) If I were you I’d wait until 20 weeks unless you have a reason that the pregnancy would impact your ability to care for teapots. That should still be plenty of time for them to plan for your leave. Congratulations!

      1. Anon,Anon, Anon*

        Thanks! I’m going to try and wait. I work with lots of women, so I’m worried I’ll be spotted. But most of them are contractors too and will get it if I ask them to keep it on the down low. I’m not going to tell them, but if they figure out and ask, I’ll tell the truth and ask them not to tell the company. None of us like the company, so that is an easy sell.

        1. Thlayli*

          I would also wait in your situation. I’m small framed too and managed to hide it with baggy jumpers till 5-6 months both times I had babies.

  86. CW*

    Question for the group:

    I have a toddler who is almost two, so I spend a lot of my patience on him. He needs to be told/instructed multiple times on the simplest things, like washing his hands, sitting down to eat, not pulling the cat’s tail, etc. This is all expected, as he is still learning how to be a person in this world and working on his language skills.

    I also manage two employees who are in their early 20s and recently graduated from college. I get very frustrated with them when they:
    a) don’t write things down and ask me to repeat the instructions/answers to their questions
    b) don’t write things down and then forget to do them
    c) write down instructions but then don’t follow them
    d) don’t ask questions when they don’t understand something

    I feel like I have higher expectations for people in their 20s than I do for my toddler, so I resent having to (essentially) treat them the same and hold their hands through everything.

    Any advice on how to handle this without showing my annoyance towards my colleagues so frequently? Or should I just tell them they are acting like toddlers and need to shape up?

    1. Kj*

      Don’t tell them they are acting like toddlers. Just don’t. But do ask them to take notes if you are going over something important. If you have performance reviews, I’d discuss this as part of their review as well. They might not know you can take notes at work or might worry it makes them look young. They might worry they are annoying you with questions. If you have let annoyance slip in the past, they might have a reason to worry. I’d go over this with them and emphasis what you want to see.

      1. Annie Moose*

        At my first job, I didn’t carry a notebook to meetings with my manager because I didn’t realize that was something I could do–I thought I was just supposed to go and listen and remember everything in my head. (which does NOT work for me) It wasn’t until I was getting (professionally) chewed out for forgetting stuff that I realized that… oh. It was OK for me to carry a notebook to meetings and OK for me to write things down in it. For some reason, up until that point I literally did not realize that was an appropriate or expected thing to do.

    2. Artemesia*

      A surprisingly high number of newbies don’t have basic life skills like making a to do list for the day, writing down instructions etc etc. Since you are supervising them, make this job 1. Provide them with a notebook and insist they write down instructions; if they ask a second time, refer them to their notebook and suggest if they continue to have trouble that they make themselves a job aid on a notecard. Require that they have a to do list for the day. By closely supervising this for a few days, and then not rescuing them but sending them back to their notes you may housebreak them. Annoying though.

    3. Amtelope*

      Unfortunately, in my experience working with entry-level employees, you’re likely to have to do some training on organizational skills. My suggestions:

      1) If some of the instructions are for tasks or procedures that aren’t one-time things, they should be documented in writing (this is also important in case you get hit by a bus). Tell them to go look at the instructions first, and then come to you if they don’t understand the instructions.

      2) If you’re giving them lists of tasks they are supposed to write down, either send out a reminder email (as we discussed, you’re going to to X, Y, and Z), or, if you’re too busy for that, tell them to send YOU a summary email (as we discussed, I’ll do X, Y, and Z).

      3) And tell them to shape up if they have written instructions that they understand, but they aren’t following them. That’s not okay, at all.

      1. Amtelope*

        With 1), if you have procedures that you haven’t documented, and you don’t have time to do it, have them do it: after you explain and they take notes, have them write up a set of instructions, and you can look the instructions over to make sure they have everything correct. But at least in my office, “I’m going to explain the thing verbally and you should write down what I say” is not really sufficient documentation, and leads to a lot of “wait, how do I do the thing again?”

      1. Thursday Next*

        I would say be clear that this handholding will taper off. Lay out your expectation that they be able to do X and Y steps to organize and manage their tasks by Z date.

        You can also say, “X and Y are strategies I use, but I encourage you to develop strategies that you feel will be most effective for you.” (Because there are different approaches—this also signals that you expect some reflection from them on their work processes.)

      2. Artemesia*

        It is aggressive non rescuing that ultimately prevails. Handhold on their documenting procedures but don’t let them come back with questions without reviewing notes or instruction guides first.

        1. zora*

          This: “Aggressive non rescuing.” The problem is, it takes longer for you, and it means things take more time for a while. So sometimes it feels easier to just rescue them. But you have to really stick to it! You can do it! Whip those whippersnappers into shape!! ;)

    5. Thlayli*

      A technique you could try is after you give them instruction, tell them to send you a short email describing what you have just told them to do, before they start. The first time they will get it all wrong and call them back in, tell them again, then ask for another email. They should start taking notes quick enough.

      They may come in to you asking more questions before sending the email. That’s fine, answer the questions, and hopefully they will start asking the questions at the initial meeting soon enough.

      It’s also a good idea to tell them at the start that you are going to ask this and ask if they’re want to get a pen and paper to take notes first.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Be sure to have them redo the work that is incorrect, also.

      And when they ask you a second time for instructions, unless the answer is very brief, ask them a few things first. Did they write it down? Did they check their notes? If they did not write it down, then they need to write it down this time.

      Also go over with them when you want them to ask questions and if they can ask each other first or should they go directly to you?

      While I do understand that this is very taxing, some of it comes with being a boss. I found it helpful to decide that there was brain drain involved in having people work for me. You can enlist them to help you so your brain does not feel so drained. For example, I would ask them to help me figure out what components we were low on. They got very good at estimating this one. I also had them ask each other some of the more basic questions before asking me. That one went over very well because they did not know me very well and they were HAPPY to ask each other, it was less intimidating. I found other ways that they could help keep track of all that was going on. I have to say, they were VERY GOOD at helping this way.
      There is a path out of this one but it does take a little bit of time.

    7. SallytooShort*

      If possible you should send your instructions through email. Then when they don’t follow through they 1) don’t have the excuse and 2) you can point to exactly where you said to do X. And it may lead to fewer screwups.

  87. paul*

    Has anyone here actually gotten good job leads from LinkedIn? I’m finally setting up a profile but I’m just feeling skeptical as all hell that it’ll actually do anything

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      Yes — people in my network have posted things that I wouldn’t have seen otherwise. Also, it’s a really good way for me to see people I know who work at places I’m interested in.

    2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      Nooooooooooooooope. I still have a profile and keep it updated, but I never expect anything to come of it.

    3. NaoNao*

      Yes, my last two jobs were from LinkedIn and all the current interviews and prospects (and one offer!) are from LinkedIn. I’ve also been approached multiple times by recruiters from LinkedIn. Now the thing is, I got those two jobs using the “InMail” feature which is for premium members only. So YMMV.
      But I’m not premium now, and I just got an offer yesterday, from a job listing I found on LinkedIn, so it does work.

    4. nep*

      I was verrrrrrry late to the LinkedIn party — setting up a profile only last year, having been in the workforce for more than two decades.
      I have not had any job leads on it, but I reckon it’s a possibility. That said, I am pleasantly surprised by how much I learn via LinkedIn and by the connections I’m able to make. I’m not on Twitter (though I browse some accounts fairly regularly), FB, or Instagram so this is the extent of an online presence for me. I have learned a lot by following or connecting to people in my field and seeing their posts in my feed.
      I do see job announcements, too, through the companies, organisations, or people I choose to follow.

      1. nep*

        Was it a job you saw in the job listings on LinkedIn, or one you learned of through a connection or recruiter?

    6. Lora*

      Oh yes! In fact most of my jobs in the past 7 years or so have been via LinkedIn.

      Plus, it’s extremely comforting when you have a crap day at work to gaze upon the inbox full of recruiters trying to woo you.

      1. nep*

        I’ve yet to hear from a single recruiter and I’ve been on LI since July. Clearly I’m not presenting anything too attractive to employers or recruiters.

        1. Lady Jay*

          If you want to hear from a recruiter, you might check your account settings? I’ve been playing around with my LI, mainly following companies, and noticed recently that accounts have a setting for I am/am not interested in a new company – basically, you can set your account to show up, or not, for recruiters.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I think it’s pretty field dependent. I hear from recruiters a few times a year, regardless of my settings (was not open for multiple years, changed to open 6 months ago, no sudden influx of recruiting contacts).

    7. Natalie*

      The recruiter that placed me in my current job found and contacted me through LinkedIn, if that counts.

  88. Contractor for now...*

    I have a dilemma and I would appreciate anyone’s thoughts on it. I currently work half time as a contractor for a federal agency. I adore what I do—it’s pretty much my dream job—and it gives me a lot of freedom and flexibility. What I do now with that flexibility is have my own freelance consulting business.

    I’m finding myself on the edge of burnout with my business, because I find that much of my free time is taken up with freelance work. And that’s the deal with freelance; you can’t really pick and choose what you get, and you don’t know a lot of the time if you’re getting anything in advance.

    When I first started doing freelance, I figured it would be a few dollars here and there, but it’s turned into about a quarter of my overall income. It would be tricky at this point to scale back to living without it. Most of my freelance work comes from a single company; different divisions contact me for different services. This company has made noises about hiring me on full-time, and has repeatedly requested my updated resume and told me that they’re looking into it. I told him each time that I’m happy where I am, but I’m always open to conversation. Because I knew that the work and culture would be very challenging, when asked for my salary requirements, I gave them a very very aggressive number, in the low six figures. That number is in line for a very senior person doing my duties at the federal agency where I work, so it’s not insane, but it’s well over twice what I make now.

    I got an email this morning from a fairly low level staffer at the big company asking me to update my materials to be bid on a contract of theirs. It was quite out of the blue, and I haven’t been contacted by anyone else there or read the RFP, but I’m assuming that the company is still moving forward with looking for a way to hire me.

    So my problem is this: I really don’t want to go back into consulting, and I truly don’t want to work for this company. I get emails from people at all hours of the day and night and on weekends and holidays. Before I went to working part time, I worked as a full-time consultant, and it was pretty terrible. However, the outlook for an FTE at the agency I work at is l grim, since it’s one whose mission is antithetical to the current administration‘s agenda. I know that there was an FTE with my job description in the past, but that individual passed away several years ago, so I don’t know what’s happened since then. And I plan to talk to my immediate supervisor at the agency, but I am pretty sure that she will tell me that the likelihood of an FTE anytime in the next several years is very low.

    At the same time, if the big company offered me that huge sum of money, I would find it very difficult to turn it down… buuuut I would also worry that I was burning bridges at this federal agency that I love so much, and that I’m so proud to be a part of. I also don’t want to string on the big company; the people there are very kind and professional, it’s just the nature of the industry that is challenging, not that specific company.

    So far, I’ve spent the past several months possibly waiting to see what shakes out, but when I got this email about being bid it made me realize that it may be time to make a decision. Do I stay at a job I love that gives me tons of flexibility and I am extremely happy at, but which will pay me less than half of what I could make in the private sector? And where the future is quite uncertain? Or do I bite the bullet, hate my job for a few years, and reach some long-term financial goals?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Bad jobs can bring on health issues which chew up a big paycheck. I am not sure how this lands for you, but don’t sacrifice your health just to make some big bucks. It’s not worth it and you could end up in the minus numbers.

      As I read this, you have it narrowed down to these two jobs. It might be worthwhile to think down new paths and see where else you can go.

    2. WellRed*

      You don’t want to go back into consulting, you hated it full time when you did it. You are concerned about the worklife balance and culture at this company. Those are pretty big data points.

  89. Ann Furthermore*

    This is not work-related for me, but is work-related for others. My daughter’s birthday is tomorrow, so today we stopped at Krispy Kreme on the way to school to get donuts for her to share with her class. On an impulse I also bought a dozen for the staff in the front office. They were so tickled when I dropped them off that it put me in a great mood and started my Friday off on a very positive note.

    So…if you can, commit a random act of kindness that improves someone’s work day, and it will improve yours too. :)

  90. I'll come up with a clever name later.*

    My husband recently started a job for a new company. He has been there for less than 90 days. His position is an assistant director and since day one he’s encountered hostility, undermining, and general unpleasantness from the staff. His boss has provided no direction and then gets upset that he’s not doing things correctly. He hasn’t been trained on anything, but she told him he should “just know what to do”. She has told him he has the authority to write up staff but when he has tried she has told him he can’t do that. The field he’s in involves taking care of people who are not able to care for themselves and this week he stepped in to assist with an individual when the staff was involved with another individual. He got written up for it and his boss put him on a PIP. She basically told him that he shouldn’t be doing things he’s not trained to do, that he’s “afraid” of the staff and that he needs to be assertive with them, that he has “favorites” among the staff (he doesn’t…they really don’t like him and have actually started lobbying for him to quit or transfer), that he should be doing the job she hired him to do, and that his learning curve period is over and that he has one month to get it all together or he’s fired. He’s SO confused. She was the one who interviewed and hired him. He was her choice but she’s been hostile to him since the beginning. He’s asked for training since day one. She’s refused to provide it. She tells him he’s not in his office enough so he made changes and started working in his office on tasks she assigned to him and then she told him that he’s in the office too much. He starts working “on the floor” and she yells at him in front of the staff. She tells him the staff doesn’t respect him so he works on that and then she’s telling him hes trying to hard to get their respect.
    Obviously…this is a bad fit job and he needs a new one. The issue is he carries our health insurance and he won’t quit until he’s got something else. He’s actively looking…the mad scramble now. My question is: anybody have any suggestions on what he can do to keep this jerk boss happy until he can get out? What worked for you in that moment of “oh-my-gosh-I’ve-made-a-big-mistake-taking-this-job-but-I-have-to-eat-so-can’t-quit-right-away”? Going back to his old job is not an option…the situation there was pretty bad too…though that took years to get to that point.

    1. Mr. Demeanor*

      Really bad situation – I’m sorry. I’d recommend he show up, follow the PIP, make as few waves as possible (if that is possible), but continue to put any and all spare energies into finding a new position (which you indicated he is). Also, you and your husband should map out the finance and insurance issues if he loses his job in one month. Best of luck to you both.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like he has my ex-boss. No, it’s probably not her but it sure could be.
      He will not win this one, make a plan and get out.
      This is what I mean by wildly unprofessional.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, is his boss’ name Barb? If so, he’s working for my old boss. There is no way to win as long as the higher-ups support her. I agree with NSNR–start making plans to get out.

    4. And so it goes*

      He can’t keep her happy. Honestly, the only thing you can do in that situation is try to handle the points on the PIP and develop an exit strategy. And document EVERYTHING in case you need a paper trail. Re: health insurance, Maybe you can look into Medicaid and the affordable health care (obama care). Also in sone states now, you’re entitled to free health insurance for the family if you are on unemployment.

  91. SophieChotek*

    Each year I get asked to write reports/analyze iniatives, sales, market trends, etc. Each year, despite data to back up my claims, my reports are dis-regarded by the bosses and we continue to do “the same things” despite sales numbers continuing to decrease. While I am sure the bosses have a better overall view of the company than I do; it’s rather disheartening.

    Last week my boss sent in a report to HQ discussing last year’s sales and an iniative to get more product introduced. He wrote an analysis of data/sales figures, which basically boiled down to that the pilot program was good but might be better if more products were included this year and some other stuff like that about opening project up to other vendors, etc. HQ wrote back and basically said his analysis was wrong and that the only reason the program didn’t do well is that our customer service was probably not good enough.

    Eh, can’t say too much without too much detail…sort of disheartening.

    Do you just shrug and move on when you feel like your bosses/HQ don’t get what you are trying to say/your suggestions from improvement?

    1. Wendy Darling*

      My last job did this but the problem was the analyses and reports were my whole job and leadership routinely ignored them because they didn’t confirm their existing assumptions about what was happening.

      I ended up leaving because of that and some other reasons that were honestly directly related, like that my boss and her boss felt I wasn’t “doing anything” because reports people decided not to take action on didn’t “add value”. I blamed myself and struggled to be more persuasive for a few months, and then ended up quitting. Maybe there is someone who could have persuaded them to consider engaging in data-driven decision-making but I don’t know who it is and they were definitely not getting that person for what they paid me.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thanks! Glad to know I’m not the only one that has this experience! You hit it right on the head: “leadership routines ignored them because they didn’t confirm their existing assumptions about what was happening” — that is exactly it.

        I feel like leadership already decided the problem must be “the people/employees” (whereas I think the problem is the product and price point)…

        Hoping I can find a new job too and get out of this…but I am learning a lot anyway, as this is my first “business” job out of college…(I would chalk up their not listening to me because I am new employee, but my boss has been there for over 17 years and they do it to him too, so its a corporate/HQ thing…)

  92. A. Ham*

    I have recently been invited to apply for what seems like an excellent professional education opportunity. It is pretty intensive- the state-wide initiative lasts for two years and consists of monthly phone/webinar training and a couple in person meetings with faculty and other professionals in the field. It will be a lot of work but it looks like it would really be useful and right up my alley (the title of the initiative has my job title right in it… I mean come on…) so I think it would be worth my time. Of course, it’s not a guarantee that I would get in- in fact they are accepting a small “class” so it may be a long shot- but I would still very much like to apply.
    When I first heard about it I had minimal information but told my boss about the opportunity and she was very encouraging. However, after doing some research I found a catch. The group they will accept will consist of teams of two people from each organization. So I can’t do this by myself, I have to convince someone I work with to apply with me. I work at a small non-profit, so we are all stretched thin as it is. I can certainly make a good argument as to why this would worth my time, and beneficial to the entire company big-picture wise, but I don’t know how I could make an argument that someone else (that is not so directly involved in what this initiative is about) should also take their time to do this.
    I have weeks before applications even open, and another month before the deadline. I don’t want to give up on this too easily. What is the best way to approach a perspective “partner” in this endeavor? Is there any hope?

  93. Nyxalinth*

    I moved to Bloomington, Indiana over the summer, and had immediately started a job in a call center. It was a good job, but I couldn’t keep up with the hefty sales quota we were required to maintain, despite the leads being 2+ years old. (Every noob was required to work the graveyard list. I guess they figured if you could sell that, you were awesome at sales). Anyway, I was let go for failing to hit quota, though they were otherwise very happy with me, and are happy to provide references.

    My question is this. I’ve been applying at other places locally, but there’s far more retail and food work here, and the other two call centers in town–despite hiring every week–have blown me off after interviews with them this summer. What can I do to increase my chances to find work outside of call centers? I don’t drive because of different reasons, so traveling to Indianapolis for work is out. Is it possible to approach companies in Indy to work from home? My last job hired people to work remotely, so it might be possible. I’d rather not make a fool of myself, though.

    I already looked at Flex jobs, and it wasn’t terribly helpful for me.

    1. Cobalt*

      How about jobs with the university? I don’t think I would bother applying with positions in Indy unless they mentioned that remote work is a possibility.

  94. LavaLamp*

    I have a bit of a gripe. My company had a blurp in the system and when I took a booked day off, the system paid me 16hrs vacation instead of 8. Work is being super difficult over this: I’m not sure why I can’t just take the day in the future unpaid. They’re solution is “Keep the pay and loose the day you never actually took or pay us back and do a mountain of paperwork just for us to turn around and re-pay you this money when you actually take a day off”. It’s not the money thing that bothers me, it’s them expecting me to just not care about the total inconvenience and not doing things the easy way.

    1. Lalaroo*

      If you keep the pay and lose the day wouldn’t that be the same as just taking the day off unpaid in the future? They’d just be making sure their records are accurate about how many paid hours you have available, right?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It’s probably something in the way they keep their books and they have no choice but to follow this SOP. I don’t think they are deliberately trying to tick you off. It probably ticks them off that they have to tell you this.

      1. LavaLamp*

        It’s not that they overpaid me for it, it’s that they will not in anyway let me take the day unpaid. Infact, my manager thinks it’s unfair to everyone else to take it unpaid because. . . I got paid so why am I complaining about a vacation day that I now can’t actually use?

  95. Beancat*

    Any advice for people looking to completely change fields that have similar types of duties (but not identical)? Bad management is driving me to the point of wanting nothing to do with this field anymore.

  96. July*

    I’m in my thirties and, as part of a career change, will soon be trying to land a competitive internship. It’s weird!

    Do any of you clever people have any experience either being or hiring an adult intern that you’d be wiling to share? I’d also love advice about how to cast my relative maturity and well-developed sense of professional norms as an asset without making it sound like I don’t think I have things to learn or that I’m criticizing my classmates.

    1. nep*

      I’ll be interested in responses here. I’ve eyed ads for internships, though I’m old by job-searching standards and it would be really odd for me to apply for an internship.

    2. ContentWrangler*

      I was an intern before being hired on full time at my current job. My three closest desk mates were all also hired through an internship program and the youngest is 31. The other former intern on my actual team is literally twice my age. All of them participated in a training program/internship because they were changing careers. So it’s not as weird as you think!

      However when it comes to how to talk about your maturity/sense of progressional norms, I think you should go with show, not tell. They’re going to be able to tell you have more professional experience than the average intern. Pointing it out seems unnecessary. Talk about how your previous career and experience gives you tools that would be useful in this new industry and what you want to learn from this internship. That’s what matters.

  97. Jan Levinson*

    Does anyone have experience having a spouse with a traveling job?

    My husband graduates PA school in May. He recently heard about an opportunity to work as a traveling PA upon graduation.

    Pros:
    -It pays significantly more than regular PA jobs (an already fairly high paying career)
    -Flexible scheduling; he would literally be logging into a website, and having his pick of what temporary job he wants to take based on what is available (anywhere from a week stint, to a 3 month stint, in whatever location that is available looks good to him). There is a huge need for this job, so he would pretty much be able to work as much/as little as he wants without having to compete for these temporary jobs.
    -We both love to travel, and this would give us an opportunity to do so.
    -Housing is completely paid for for the PA AND his family (in our case, just me!) wherever we go.
    -Not having to pay for a house/apartment in our home city; we would probably just live in my parents’ basement when not traveling.

    Cons:
    -I’d have to leave my job (which I’m not married to by any means) but I’m not sure what job I COULD have if we’re traveling all the time. Although, hubs may be making enough to where I don’t need to work (FWIW, we’re finance gurus and are responsible with our money)
    -Benefits are not provided – you have to buy your own benefits independently.

    I would love to hear other peoples’ takes/experiences!

    1. Anon Anon*

      No experience, but I would be very wary if no benefits are being provided. And you may find that paying for your own health insurance, life insurance, and contributing to retirement means that the salary gains are eliminated by paying for your own benefits.

      Do you want kids any time in the near future? Because that may be something to take into consideration as well.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        I understand that, and we are trying to weigh whether that will be a deal breaker.

        We are wanting to try for kids in about one year. However, it’s actually quite typical in these sort of jobs for PAs to travel for only 1-2 years, then go back to a “normal” PA job when they want to settle down/start a family.

        1. ronda*

          If you like to travel, I say go for it for a while. You might even end up finding a place that you love and end up wanting to stay.

          And if you end up getting tired of the travel, start the looking for the location stable job then.

          I think your job prospects depend on how long the PA assignments are. Do you do work that is feasible for doing via a temp agency? That is probably the most flexible situation.

          I am having to buy my own benefits now. It is not cheap, but when I was laid off, the price of paying for myself or going thru my ex-employers cobra was about the same. So just make sure the salary includes enough to cover the insurance amounts. (life insurance is generally not necessary if you dont have dependents, disability insurance might be more valuable to you — all depends on your life situation)

      2. Kj*

        I agree about the benefits. I’d research now what benefits might cost and if they would be any good. If you are moving from state to state, that would be even harder, as plans often don’t travel over state lines well.

        If you like the lifestyle, the benefit thing might be surmountable. But your lost income and lost opportunities could be rough in the future. Are you in a field where you could freelance from afar? Or could you start a small business that would let you work remote? My job is not portable- my husband and I have talked about how if he wants to move for his job, it has to pay a lot more, as I can’t easily move my work from state to state.

    2. Joielle*

      That sounds fun to me! Of course the benefits are something to think about, but I feel like this is a neat (and rare) opportunity to have some adventures before you have kids and all the responsibilities that come along with that.

      I’ve never done anything like it but my husband works for a huge company with opportunities for international transfers, and we’ve talked about maybe taking one for a couple of years before we have kids. Our main hurdle is that I love my very-niche job, it’s impossible to do remotely, and it would be very unlikely that I could get my job back after being gone for that long. But if you don’t have that hurdle, I’d say go for it!

    3. Chaordic One*

      My father recently had to spend a month in the hospital (well, three different hospitals, actually) and in the course of his being there I ran into a lot of traveling nurses. (Not quite the same thing, but sort of in a similar situation.) He lives in a very rural state and they have trouble attracting and retaining medical professionals of all types. I would imagine that many people would find that living there makes them feel kind of isolated. The traveling nurses I met were all either single or if married, they were both medical professionals. (Like two nurses married to each other.)

  98. GT*

    I was rejected from a job posted in October (rejected December). They just reposted it. The only difference seems to be that instead of a start date of “ASAP” the start date is listed as flexible. I am going to apply again (worst they can do – say “no” again), but would it be better to apply from my university email account instead of my personal one for this go round? (Position is academia/academia adjacent – university emails are a “thing.”)

    1. LAI*

      If you’re talking about a staff position, I can almost guarantee that your email address won’t make a difference. I work at a university and have done a lot of hiring, and we don’t even notice that. It is very common for people to use their personal email addresses, even if they have a university email address, because most people do not want to use their work email address to apply for another job. If you’re asking about faculty positions, I can’t speak to that – it’s probably more common to see university addresses but again, I really doubt it matters. One of the deans I currently work with uses gmail for everything.

  99. Job Title*

    I’m trying to figure out what job title my duties fall under in other organizations. I have a generic title at my company, but my duties not exactly mainstream for that particular title. In this position, I manage the forms for our company. Anything in our stores that customers fill out, or reference, posters etc. I manage that whole process. Any time there’s a change, I manage the redesign and printing process, etc. I also maintain the online, employee accessible versions of our policy and procedures documents. Any time a policy changes or a procedure is updated, I integrate the change into our official policy documents and send company-wide notices of the changes. I have a variety of other, smaller side tasks too, but those two are my major responsibilities.

    If I were to look for a new job, any suggestions on titles to look at?

      1. Job Title*

        I’m not doing the graphic design, just managing the process. Other than the writing of the content updates, I’m mostly managing the process for both functions.
        I did wonder if the title was going to be technical writer.

        1. SophieChotek*

          Managing Technical Writier
          Technical Writer/Editor

          …my job title doesn’t really fit/adequately explain what I do either, so in theory my resume (with bullet points) and cover letter should explain better my abilities and experiences…

    3. kw10*

      The policies and procedures part sounds like knowledge management to me. Not sure the best way to work the forms part into that, though…

    4. Oxford Coma*

      Tech Writer is more, well, technically focused, and what you’re doing seems to straddle that as well as marketing/communications. I’d go with Documentation Manager or Communications Coordinator.

  100. Sartorial wondering!*

    Sartorial question! I’m a highly qualified candidate moving to a new, smaller city for my husband’s job in the next few months, and through some networking I have set up some meetings to discuss possible jobs and my industry’s market more generally during an upcoming trip (the trip is part of my husband’s job’s recruitment—-they’re showing is different neighborhoods, letting me meet his coworkers, etc). My industry is fairly formal; anything other than a conservative suit would be odd during an actual interview. These “conversations” are obviously going to function in part as interviews (and some of them are structured in the way of normal second-round interviews in my field—eg a schedule of meetings with a few folks who I might work for at their offices). But they weee set up in a much more informal way—e.g. a friend put me in touch with her friend, a high level person, who after hearing about my experience said “I’d love to bring you in and give you a chance to learn more from my colleagues whose work I think is right up your ally!” So I guess my question is: should I wear a suit? A non-matching-blazer-dress outfit? Something else? I don’t want to seem underdressed—but I also like the general atmosphere that’s been established so far of “discussion about possibilities,” rather than a standard interview and am worried that dressing as formally as I would for a real “callback” will change the tone of the conversation. (Yes I’m overthinking this!)

    For what it’s worth, given my past experience and the new city’s market, I am a strong enough candidate that I am not worried about getting hired in general—the real question for me is, is there work/workplace culture that I’d be excited enough in this smaller city or will I be happier setting up a commuter situation in a bigger nearby city?

    1. July*

      I would definitely run this by the commenters over at Corporette. They’re super judgy, but they’re usually a great resource on questions like this. Personally, though, I’d dress as though I was there as part of my current role for a meeting rather than for a job interview.

      I’d also double check what the dress norms in the smaller are really like. As you’re probably aware, smaller communities are often more casual–even in more formal industries.

    2. NaoNao*

      Second the Corporette recommendation. They can get into the extreme weeds about very specific stuff, but they also have very helpful, concrete suggestions and links to buy stuff. This type of one-off, specific corporate business-formal situation is their bread and butter.

    3. Hey you, yes you!*

      I’d go with a blazer and dress combo rather than a full suit – the full suit seems to me what you’d step up for if the meeting led to a formal interview, and if you start with that then you don’t have anywhere to go, plus it suggests somehow that you thought this meeting was more than it really is. But I’d third the recommendations to post on corporette, this sort of thing is discussed almost daily over there :)

  101. Internal Candidate*

    For an internal interview, suit or no suit? The dress code is business casual but the department I’m interviewing in is more casual than the one I’m in now. Only about 3 people here every wear suits, the CEO and a couple of women in HR. So it would really, really stand out if I wore a suit. Plus I don’t have a suit! Should I get one?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think I’d wear very sharp business casual. By that I mean, nice slacks or a pencil skirt and a button up shirt, with or without a sweater or vest depending on weather and what you like to wear. Also women typically have more unique suit options – if there is a more casual type suit, either in cut or fabric, you could find that was still on the neutral side, that might work as well.

      Even then, it still doesn’t hurt to wear a suit, even if it’s only the CEO! You could always just bring the blazer with you and not wear it if you feel that’s too formal. But if you don’t want to buy a suit, you could try the above options.

    2. NaoNao*

      Agreed-very sharpest business casual. Perhaps go luxe in materials (a suede waterfall cardigan, wool trousers, high end shoes) or go with a very sharp look–a solid, perfectly fitted and tailored sheath dress, chunky high heeled loafers, and a sharp, fashion-forward blazer? Then you can sub out flats and a comfy sweater before/after and the sheath is just a skirt.

    3. LAI*

      Can you buy a blazer? My go-to interview outfit is a black blazer with a black pants, so it basically looks like a suit – they don’t exactly match but I don’t think anyone is looking closely enough to tell. Plus if I don’t want people to know I’m interviewing at my current job, I can wear just the pants with a sweater, and then throw the jacket on right before I walk into the interview. The blazer was a great investment because I’ve been able to wear it to various events for several years now.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        Even if they don’t match, a blazer on top of slacks or chinos can dress up a casual look, and you can find blazer pretty cheaply at places like Target that still look nice.

    4. Tallulah*

      I had an internal interview recently in a very casual department. I have also been on the other side of the table and interviewed internal candidates to work with me in the same organization. I think a good rule of thumb is dress how you would dress if you were giving a big presentation or important meeting in that environment – to help you present confidently and to communicate you take this interview seriously. The last internal candidate I hired wore a black sheath dress and cardigan. Her hair was in a bun and I don’t remember what kind of shoes she was wearing. for my own internal interview, I wore tan pants, short black boots, a nice black crew neck sweater and pretty scarf. I wore my blazer as a jacket but took it off because it was really hot in the office.

      1. Windchime*

        I work in IT for medical organizations, and at my last buisness-casual job we actually interviewed an internal candidate who was in scrubs. It was what she wore during her day as a nurse and so we understood that she was wearing her normal work-day clothing. As people often say, IT can be different. But nobody thought a thing about her attire.

  102. Comms Girl*

    With a bigger income comes greater responsibilities: following my raise last week, I am now the official supervisor of our new intern. It’s her first post-uni placement in her desired area, she’s really nice and puts a lot of effort into everything she does, but this first week was a bit of a struggle for me as I tried to find to review her outputs and performance on top of my usual duties, tasks and her induction week. I’ve worked and supervised interns before, but always in an “unofficial” way (as in, they would work with me in project X or Y and I would still be the lead, but would have higher-ups as mentors and official supervisors). Hopefully I’ll get the hang of it soon :) Happy weekend, everyone!

  103. Wendy Darling*

    Do people feel like interviewing has gotten more onerous in the last few years?

    I’ve only been in the real workforce for ~6 years (before that I was in grad school and we didn’t apply for graduate jobs so much as state our interest and then get chosen, like pokemon) but I swear interviewing has gotten more arduous since I first looked for private sector jobs six years ago.

    I just interviewed for a 12-month temporary job and the process is:

    1. Phone interview with staffing agency (45 minutes)
    2. Phone interview with company (1 hour)
    3. Second phone interview with company (1 hour)
    4. Writing exercise (???)
    5. On-site interview with company (multiple 45 minute interviews with different team members)

    This is pretty similar to a lot of jobs I’ve applied for — an initial screening with a recruiter, 1-2 phone interviews, some kind of take-home exercise that takes anywhere from 1 hour to days, then a lengthy in-person interview involving multiple people that can take as long as six hours.

    Is it just that I work in tech (even though I am not a dev) and tech interviewing is out of control? Or are other fields like this also?

    1. Kj*

      I have friends and relatives that work in tech and I think it is tech, not jobs in general. Tech wants to have clever interviews and exercises. Some are needed per my friends and relatives, but some are just excessive. Some are really about cultural fit and they are assessing you for that and want multiple people to weigh in.

    2. A*

      I applied for an administrative assistant job at a tech startup and went through something similar.

      1. Answered questions over email
      2. Phone interview
      3. In-person interview
      4. Remote Excel skill test
      5. Another phone interview

      After that the interviewer did ask for my references and it seemed like she was going to offer me the position, but I had already taken a different position at that point. It does seem like this may be a tech thing. It hasn’t happened to me with other administrative jobs I’ve applied for.

    3. Windchime*

      My last job (in IT, and I am a programmer):
      1. Phone interview with manager and a couple team members
      2. Second phone call with manager, way less formal (she noticed my salary requirements and wondered if it still made sense to talk)
      3. In person, 1-hour “technical” interview with part of the team (super easy questions)
      4. In person, 1-hour general interview with the team, and then some introductions around the department

      So it sounds pretty typical, other than the writing exercise.

  104. In a (brain) fog*

    My production has been, for lack of a better word, majorly sucking lately (for good reason), but my boss hasn’t seemed to have noticed. I’m wondering if I should proactively discuss it with him or wait for him to come to me if he has a problem with it. I’ll explain: I had a minor brain bleed last year. Luckily, I was back to work in about a week and a half, but I began to develop progressively worsening migraines. My case was somewhat of a medical mystery and it took another eight months and bunch of tests before the doctors finally pinpointed the cause of my bleed (a rare condition that affects, like, some 0.15% of the population). My migraines have intensified now to the point where even though I’m on anti-seizure meds twice a day, I still get headaches 3-6 days a week.

    Technically, I’m on FMLA, but I haven’t used much sick time apart for medical procedures. For one, the headaches almost always come on in the afternoon when I’m already at work. Nothing I do alleviates them, so I’d rather tough it out at work and try to get at least *some* work done than fall even further behind by going home. Plus, I work on a small team and couple of my coworkers tend to take excessive use of their sick time to the point where others in our larger department mock them behind their backs. Even though my use of sick time is legitimate, I’m extra sensitive to using it because of how flagrantly they abuse it and the perception it creates.

    Boss knows about my general condition, but doesn’t really know the full extent of it or just how much the headaches affect me or my productivity. The anti-seizure meds I take also cause brain fog and cognition issues, which makes focusing at work even more difficult. I’m incredibly behind on a lot of my projects, but he hasn’t mentioned it to me. Our work environment is pretty laidback in general and we’re very autonomous over our workloads; even though I’m behind on these projects, it’s not really problematic or a crisis. I check in with boss each week on my projects, so he knows where they stand.

    Should I proactively mention all this to him, or just assume that he will let me know if he has a problem with my productivity? I’m a pretty private (and proud) person and prefer not to disclose just how much I am struggling here. And, while boss is a good guy, if he hasn’t noticed the drop in my productivity, I don’t really want to point it out to him, either.

    1. CatCat*

      It doesn’t sound like there is actually a problem to resolve with your boss here on the productivity. You know where your projects stand and he knows where your projects stand. If you might need to lighten your workload or perhaps adjust your schedule (e.g., come in earlier and leave earlier since your condition flares up in the afternoon), that would be something to bring up and work out.

      Neither you nor your boss sound like a problem here, at any rate. It sounds like you are anxious because you have some gossipy colleagues who are making fun of people for using sick time. That’s ridiculous and none of their business. Is your boss a reasonable boss? If so, who cares what the gossipers are doing.

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      If the headaches tend to start in the afternoon, do you think that it’s the time of day or the number of hours you’ve been awake? Could you flex your time to start and end work earlier? Or arrange your schedule so that you’re working hard in the mornings and have less-crucial or easier tasks for the afternoons? Is there something about the environment you can change to see if that triggers fewer headaches, like how long you’re looking at a screen or taking more breaks? All suggestions to improve productivity and also make it clear to your boss that you’re working on what you can do – no need for you to actually answer here. Just might be worth some consideration.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I’d open the conversation as part of an on-going conversation.
      “Boss, I haven’t been up to par lately. I am getting concerned about falling behind. I would like to know your thoughts on my productivity levels.”
      Hopefully he says useful things and then you can thank him and let him know that you want to keep the door open for any concerns he may have.

      I am a big fan of preemptive strikes. If I am pretty sure something will be an issue I go to the boss and do not wait for the boss to come to me. At one place I had issue X, which looked like it could blow up in a spectacular manner. I went to both my bosses, while I was off the clock and told them I had X problem. They both said, “It’s not a problem, don’t worry about it.” Well, X blew up in a spectacular manner with investigators and the whole nine yards. And it all boiled down to, “If NSNR had bad intentions then WHY did she come tell BOTH of us on HER OWN time that she had a problem?” That single action saved my butt. Yeah, I am big fan of being the first one to get to the boss.

  105. Savannnah*

    My last day is in two weeks and my replacement is starting this Monday so we will have 2 weeks of overlap. I’m moving out of my office today so she can start fresh on Monday. I’ve never had any overlap in past position changes and I’m not sure entirely what I should be doing with her. I don’t have good guidance from my very hands off boss but I have to get her up to speed on a number of large scale high stakes programs and projects. I’m trying to think about what would have been useful to me when I started. What was helpful to anyone who did have an overlap like this? Any things not to do?

    1. Snark*

      Don’t try to download everything. It gets overwhelmingly confusing. Instead, make sure she knows where to find stuff she needs – in other words, give her a path to figure out what she doesn’t know and how to figure it out, rather than trying to tell her everything she doesn’t know. Focus on letting her know where stuff is, transfering files in an organized and easy to find way, how the shared drive is laid out, that kind of thing. And of course the broad outlines of programs and projects, and general history and where they’re currently at- but don’t get lost in the weeds.

  106. Snark*

    So I just glanced over at the window and there’s a goat walking by like it ain’t a thing. Fridays are so weird.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Trade you? Total accumulation of snow since the last melt – well over a foot and in the middle of a multi day snow storm now.

    3. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      A deer walked by my office yesterday. There are woods nearby, but we’re literally right on a turnpike. Guess she wasn’t too concerned.

    4. Environmental Gone Public Health*

      I distinctly remember a day many years ago in high school when I looked up and saw a cow walk past the door of the English classroom, which was a floor above the FFA classrooms.

      My school’s nickname was Cow Pie High.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I went out for drinks with family years ago. I was sitting in a booth of a restaurant in a mall. I looked out the window and there were two people carrying baby tigers. Gosh, they were cute.

      Never did find out why people brought baby tigers to the mall.

    6. NW Mossy*

      While working from home, saw one of the neighbor kids cruise by with her chicken on a hoverboard. And no, that’s not a typo.

    7. Windchime*

      I was outside pruning rose bushes one day (this was at home) and I heard the clip-clop of horses coming down the street. I went to look and nope–it was mules. Two loose mules trotting down the street.

  107. Employee perks*

    Our organization does not want to spend money for any amenities, like water or microwave or whatever. Is this something companies would usually get? or do you pass the bucket? and if so, how do you ask/who buys the thing etc? Probably not everyone would actually use them. I get these are perks but I think some of these things are really cheap and would do so much for morale, but I’ve been told no. We are about 100 people if that makes a difference.

    1. Snark*

      Yeah, it’s really typical – to the point that they’re not really perks. It’s generally and reasonably expected that the office will have a fridge, microwave, coffee maker, and possibly water cooler – that’s the minimal level of equipment any office should have as just a matter of course. Your employer is being unreasonably cheap and stingy here.

    2. Wendy Darling*

      Everywhere I’ve worked has just HAD that stuff. I work in tech and it would be considered outrageous to make employees pay for a microwave or a water cooler. I worked for a large company known for being cheap and even they had microwaves, hot drink options (tea, coffee, instant cocoa), and a drinking water dispenser in the kitchen.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I would be pretty surprised that there isn’t a microwave and coffee maker that the business provides — those seem pretty standard office equipment and are a one-time expense. Providing them also will (mostly) eliminate the possible hazard of someone bringing in rogue appliances that may not be safe or placed in appropriate areas.

      Consumables like bottled water/coffee/tea etc. aren’t as standard IME. Those are on-going expenses that can add up and everyone tends to have different tastes so it can cause drama or waste.

    4. LAI*

      I work for a public university so they don’t pay for anything. I’m sure it has to do with how taxpayer money gets spent. I’m not sure where the refrigerators come from, but all of the other amenities in our kitchen are staff-supplied. Usually someone will bring in their old microwave because they got a new one but the old one still technically works, or something like that. If we needed a new one and there wasn’t one around, yes, we’d take up a collection for it and people could choose to contribute or not.

      What do you mean by water? Do you mean a water cooler, or do you literally mean paying the water bill to run the tap? The former would be a luxury at my job but I’m pretty sure the latter is legally required (although I’ve learned that they’re apparently not required to heat it).

    5. KR*

      I don’t think I’ve worked somewhere without a microwave and employee fridge. The two food service jobs I had didn’t have an employee fridge but they had a designated spot in the walk in fridges for employee food that was away from food food customers. The grocery store I was a supervisor at had a mini kitchen – fridge, Keurig, toaster oven, microwave, sink, and water dispenser, and it provided free paper plates, cups, napkins and utensils. In current job we have a fridge, water dispenser, Keurig, and microwave. We also order plates, cups, utensils, k-cups, electrolyte freezer pops (for work outside in the desert) and get water delivered. The offices at company headquarters have full kitchens with even more amenities.

    6. Overeducated*

      I work somewhere where the org can’t spend any money on food or drink at all (taxpayer $), we’ve recently moved into pretty minimalistic quarters, and we even have an office fridge, microwave, water fountain, and Keurig machine. Being able to store and heat up food is a pretty basic need.

    7. Irene Adler*

      I donated one of the two microwaves used at my office.
      Someone else donated a coffee maker. Each time a coffee maker dies someone donates one.
      And no, no one was ever compensated for their donation.

    8. LCL*

      At big government (TM) we used to have to buy microwaves for our remote installations. Since our work group was the heaviest user, we passed the hat. And someone stole one about two months after we put it in, but that is another story. Since microwaves became ubiquitous they are now provided by facilities. If anyone wants a fridge at a remote location one is found from someone’s basement. Drinking water isn’t provided unless potable water isn’t available.

    9. WellRed*

      They have to provide potable water. As to the rest, their not wanting to spend money on what they consider perks/amenities (that most of us would consider basic and necessary) begs the question, why on earth would they be so cheap?

    10. zora*

      Yeah, that’s bull. I worked at a very tiny, very broke nonprofit with less than 30 employees, and we had a fridge, microwave, toaster and water delivery. That is ridiculous, those are normal things that make people feel like humans and cost very little in the grand scheme of the organizational budget.

      This would be a Russian May Day level of red flags for me, I would not work at this place.

      1. zora*

        and, I mean, we found the microwave at a thrift store for $6. How on earth is that too much money to spend to give your employees a little bit of convenience while they are doing the work that keeps your business running???

    11. Betsy*

      We don’t get any of those things. But I walk past other departments and can clearly see that they have a kitchen set up. It may be petty, but I do feel resentful that they can’t even provide us with a totally normal thing.

  108. Editrix*

    Question inspired by the dog letter earlier this week: What does “this office is X-friendly” mean to you?

    I would have described an old job as dog-friendly. That meant that occasionally there would be a dog in the office for a couple of hours, usually going to or coming from the vet. If you wanted to go see the dog, you could. I’d also describe my current job as kid-friendly. That means new parents bring the baby by once while on leave, you might hear a toddler run by at the end of the day, or run into a tween in the kitchen on a school holiday. In both jobs, these were things that happened every few months at most.

    In neither of these jobs would I have taken “dog/kid friendly” to mean dogs and kids all the time, all day. So if I interviewed somewhere and they mentioned the office was “dog-friendly”, I wouldn’t take that to mean dogs are always around. I wouldn’t even bring up a dog allergy or fear, as I wouldn’t think that I’d have to interact with the dog at all. After the last few years of reading AAM, I realize that I was off in my interpretation of those phrases and I’m wondering if anyone else had the same experience.

    1. LAI*

      I would assume that dog-friendly means that dogs are allowed in the office at any time, so someone theoretically could choose to bring their dog every day if they wanted to. My workplace does not allow dogs or kids, but I see them about as frequently as you mention – this is because people with lenient bosses just break the rules as often as they can get away with it. By my definition, hopefully no workplace is kid-friendly because I can’t imagine a work environment where it would be acceptable to bring your kids with you every day…

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I would think that if the employer specifically mentions that they are dog/kid friendly it would mean that dogs/kids will be there a majority of the time — maybe not the same dog or kid everyday, but there will be at least one in the office on most days. If they don’t mention it as a policy then the default is no animals/kids and the issue becomes enforcement — will a manager let someone bring in a dog/child every once in a while for emergencies or are they strict about the policy. I also think that anyone with a serious allergy or fear should actually inquire about the presence of animals because even if there is an office policy of no dogs, someone could have a qualified service animal that is permitted by law.

    4. fposte*

      I may be with you in that I think ten years ago I probably would have thought as you did. But knowing what I do now about the cultural significance of dog presence in a lot of workplace, I would now take it mean “people bring their dogs on on the regular.”

      1. Editrix*

        I was definitely unaware of that significance, though I also think that it coincided with the last decades rise in start-ups. In my prior dog-friendly office, I worked with people obsessed with their dogs, but they too only brought their dogs in occasionally. So I guess it never occurred to me that this is something people want to do. Now I know better!

    5. Thlayli*

      I’ve never worked at either but I would assume the phrases “dog-friendly” and “kid-friendly” mean bring your dog or baby/child in all day so long as they are not bothering others.

    6. Nacho*

      Kid friendly means parents will bring their kids after school to avoid paying for daycare, and dog friendly means at least 2 people will have their dogs with them every day.

    7. a-no*

      I 100% thought the same as you. My offices have always been dog & kid friendly which means sometimes a dog is there for a day or two or a child comes in for a couple hours for awhile. I’ve never heard dog-friendly to mean full time pups until the last year or so.
      The kid one is so hit or miss and I’ve never encountered it in real life (I don’t think I could work with a kid next to me all day every day so I would have a big problem with it. I like kids, I just can’t get a lot done around them)

    8. Windchime*

      The office I used to work in was unofficially “dog-friendly”. Which meant that some people might bring their dog in on the Friday before a holiday, or if their dog had a vet appointment or the painters were going to be at the house. It definitely wasn’t a “bring all the dogs on all the days”. Most of the time it was OK, but there was the day that someone brought a crying puppy in a kennel and then went off to meetings so the rest of us had to listen to her puppy whining and barking all day.

  109. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

    I know people are usually interested in networking help and love to have job referrals drop in your lap but…

    Anyone in the creative fields ever get an out-of-the-blue freelance job referral/offer that you weren’t in the market for, and frankly weren’t happy to receive? I’m a graphic designer employed full-time and haven’t done freelance work for a very long time. Early this week I got an email, to my work address, from a stranger who was given my contact info by a print vendor, Wakeen, that I’ve had a good business relationship with for over a decade. I get cold solicitations from all sorts of vendors constantly and my contact info is available on my employers website so at first I thought it might be spam except he mentioned Wakeen by name. The email was also sort of presumptuous in that it was written like a list of “here’s what I need you to work on” rather than “are you interested in a freelance job?” Maybe that’s clouding my perspective. I confirmed with Wakeen that he did indeed give out my name and work contact info to this person, but I didn’t really address it with him further.

    The situation is resolved, I turned the offer down politely so I’m not sure I need advice there, but if anyone else has ever had this happen, I’d like to know how you handled it or even if it bothered you. I think it was totally out-of-bounds and rude to give out my info without getting my permission or at the very least letting me know. Maybe I’m overreacting but it seems like I should say something to Wakeen. I don’t want to blow this business relationship up — they are one of my preferred print vendors for 2 big projects I work on — but I don’t want this to happen again.

    1. Green Goose*

      I think its fine to say to Wakeen, “Hey Wakeen, I wanted to circle back to that print vendor we discussed before. I actually don’t do freelance anymore and am not looking for additional work so I don’t need my contact information being shared with potential clients. In the future if you want me to get in contact with someone I haven’t met, make sure to check in with me first. Thank you.”

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      When I freelanced I was sometimes annoyed by other freelancers recommending me for work I didn’t want or wasn’t free to do that I then had to spend mental energy refusing. I can understand clients recommending you but from a vendor that’s annoying. Take a deep breath and move on though.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        PS by recommending I mean sending a joint email to introduce me – making it super awkward to then have to turn around and say no.

    3. Montresaur*

      I wouldn’t feel affronted that Wakeen gave out your info without asking you first; it’s likely he thought he was doing you a favor. Some of my favorite repeat clients came as surprise unsolicited referrals; they also didn’t start with the attitude that I already worked for them, as it seems in your situation.

      All that said, if you’re overwhelmed by the number of requests you get from Wakeen’s contacts, and / or are certain you’re not looking to take on freelance work anytime soon: wait until you get another request, politely decline as you did this time, and send Wakeen a quick email thanking him for his willingness to refer you to his contacts, but unfortunately you won’t be able to take on any freelance work for the foreseeable future and would hate to waste his / their time when you’re not accepting external projects (or something to that effect).

      Obviously, these requests for work are a drain on your time and energy, not his, but framing it as a consideration of Wakeen’s time and reputation will be good for the business relationship you need to maintain, while letting him know that you won’t be available to his contacts. Then, if you get messages you don’t have the energy to deal with, there’s no surprise that you didn’t get around to responding.

      For unwanted work requests that don’t come as referrals: can you see any harm to your company or your reputation to simply not respond? If someone’s looking you up on your employer’s website and using your employee email to talk about freelance work that they have no reason to believe you’re interested in, I don’t see how it’s reasonable for them to expect a response.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        “For unwanted work requests that don’t come as referrals: can you see any harm to your company or your reputation to simply not respond?”

        I already don’t respond to those and usually they go away quickly. I was going to drop this one into a black hole too except for the mention of Wakeen. I’m an in-house designer — I don’t have other clients at all. If I were self-employed or employed by a design firm, obviously it wouldn’t have been a big deal and referrals would be appreciated. I guess my irritation is that if I worked for a boss/company that would penalize me for “job hunting” or moonlighting on the company time and computer, this could have jeopardized my job (luckily I don’t). I would never give out someone else’s contact info without permission — similar to getting permission to use someone as a reference.

        1. Montresaur*

          Ah, good point. I’ve always been freelance, and while I assumed that you didn’t have any clients, I hadn’t considered how some employers would react to moonlighting, especially if they suspect company resources are being used. In that context, I understand your annoyance.

          I’d still be cautious if my temptation to say anything to Wakeen came from a place of irritation, though I realize you want to preempt any more unexpected third-party requests. Since you’re not concerned about retaliation from your boss, and Wakeen’s a longtime preferred vendor who appears to have made a single faux pas, you’re likely better served by letting this one go.

  110. Cappuccino*

    I’ve heard on the grapevine that grandboss is planning to retire next year. She is responsible for staffing and budgets alongside great grandboss.

    In light of this, I would like to (subtly) ask about promotion. I started as an apprentice and was then made an assistant. The next step up would be to officer grade. My responsibilities aren’t very different to the official officer on the team.

    Is it reasonable for me to ask my manager what the long term plan is for my role, and if/when I am likely to be moved up the ladder? Grandboss has always looked out for me and it would be great if she could bump me up before she retires.

    In case it’s relevant, I have been in my current role for three years

    Thanks!

  111. Green Goose*

    I have a work issue: I work in a nonprofit, and my role has a lot of overlap with our Finance department but I’m not in the Finance department. My work cannot be completed without Finance. Imagine that I’m the first part of a process that involves our clients getting paid, but Finance is the final stop. At our regional offices there are Client Managers who are supposed to manage our clients and they will contact me with questions, but sometimes the clients call me directly. My coworker, Jane, is on the Finance team and her and I work together a lot because there is a lot of trouble shooting with our work. We also sit in the same cubicle pod.

    Jane is very sweet, she is nearing retirement age and she has been with the org for almost ten years; I’ve been here three. The organization has scaled a lot during that time, and because of this, her workload has increased significantly. She is not the type of person to say when she doesn’t understand something, and never turns down projects even if she does not have the capacity to complete the work. This has gotten me into trouble in the past when she told me she would meet a deadline that it was not possible for her to meet and I only found out when an angry Client Manager said the payment did not go through. Similar things have happened since so I know to double and triple check with her when a deadline is coming.

    I used to be in charge of Aluminum teapot payments and Clay teapot payments but for the past year I only do Clay teapot payments. Aluminum teapot payment requests go directly from the Client Managers to Jane. My issue:

    It seems that Jane is overworked, does not respond to emails or answer her phone so Client Managers and clients will email and call me repeatedly about Aluminum teapot payments. If I have time, I’ll check the system to give them an update on Jane’s behalf but lately the emails have increased. I forward and/or cc Jane on the emails, and pass messages onto her but she just will not respond to them and it seems like payment times have increased. One Client Manager emailed me about five times in one day with the final email demanding an explanation from me about Jane’s behaviour. This person knows I am not Jane’s boss and have zero authority over her.

    It got to the point that I told my manager and asked for advice on speaking with Jane. When I did speak with Jane It was awful. I explained that I was getting lots of angry emails and didn’t know what to do, I offered a few ideas for how to help, and encouraged her to tell her boss that she needed help Jane she almost started crying and begged me not to tell her boss. She made it seem like she was on the verge of being fired and if I were to say anything, she will be.

    My yearly raises are directly tied to client’s and Client Manager’s reviews of my work, and I’m concerned that their frustration over late payments will be reflected in my reviews because no matter how many times I explain that I am not the point person anymore, they will just keep emailing me. I’ve told three separate Client Managers that I am not the person who can elevate this issue and they need to elevate it on their own, but when they are tasked with informing Jane’s boss they have said they don’t want to be the bad guy.

    I don’t know what to do at this point. I’m thinking of going back to my boss again and saying that the situation has still not improved and I don’t know what to do, but since its a nonprofit and people are so busy I’m not sure my boss will have any answers either.

    1. Mr. Demeanor*

      Jane is not doing her job to the level required of her position. I’d go back to your boss, reiterate your concerns stressing your concerns about getting bad reviews of your work. If they are okay with it, I would request a meeting with Jane and her boss together and outline these problems and how this can be resolved.

    2. Temperance*

      Did your boss talk to Jane’s boss? At this point, you can’t get Jane to do her job, and it’s going to impact you.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      No way would I take a hit on my review for someone else to keep their job. No way.

      You could try one more time. “Jane, I am not willing to get a bad review to protect you. I would like us to look for solutions on this matter.”
      If she starts crying and does as she did before, then you could:
      Start forwarding the client emails to your boss for resolution.
      Ask your boss to speak to Jane’s boss.
      Ask your boss if you can go speak to Jane’s boss.

      But my very first step would be to let my own boss know that the conversation did not go well with Jane. If my own boss did not come up with solutions or take over the matter then I would offer something that I could do. And I would point blank say, “I know that it impacts my work and I am not willing to have a poor evaluation over this.”

      This will not get better when Jane quits because the new person will probably be slower because of the learning curve. So with this idea in mind, I would not let this situation go on and on without speaking up.

    4. WellRed*

      Jane needs to be fired. I am also not impressed with your manager for putting this back on you instead of … managing.

  112. Teapot librarian*

    I’m looking for advice on how to give constructive feedback on written work. I’m thinking of three separate needs for feedback:
    1. Lack of proofreading, or poor proofreading. This includes things like “he” instead of the “the” (and “pubic” instead of “public”) but also things like words missing from sentences and statements that don’t make sense (this is my favorite example: “teapots are organized chronologically by subject”).
    2. Generally poor writing. That is, the type of writing that an English teacher would be justified in commenting and grading on, but that is complicated to navigate in a professional context. Some of this may be lack of proofreading (see: “teapots are organized chronologically by subject”) and some is just…it reads like a middle school student wrote it. I don’t have a specific example, though.
    3. Tone. This is specific to one of my employees and the comments that he provides on other people’s written work. I understand the build up of frustration that has gone into his comments (see 1. and 2. above) but he writes things like “The directions for teapot spout shaping are ridiculous. There is no justification for shaping a teapot spout the way you described. To do so is an insult to teapot spouts.” My employee knows that I have concerns about his tone–this is why *I* have his comments instead of him giving them directly to the person who wrote the document in question–but he thinks he’s done nothing wrong, and I can’t figure out how to provide constructive guidance. (Most of his comments aren’t as egregious as the one I “quoted” above; they are generally more along the lines of “DON’T SAY X. SAY X-PRIME. THE WRONG FORMAT IS USED. THIS ISN’T ENOUGH INFORMATION. YOU DIDN’T FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS. YOU DIDN’T GIVE US [thing we never asked for].”)
    I feel like the writing courses I took in college didn’t prepare me for providing this type of feedback, possibly because all of my classmates wrote better than the people whose work I’m reading now.

    1. Amtelope*

      Are these errors in the work of people who report to you, or are you dealing with another department whose work you’re supposed to edit? For poor proofreading/writing from direct reports, I would suggest both pointing out patterns of errors and returning work that is super-messy with a “This has multiple errors — please proofread it again before submitting it to me” email. If you’re editors cleaning up another team’s work, this may just be what the job is, although you could try a general “Please proofread documents before submitting them; this process will be faster if documents are clean when we receive them.”

      For the “tone” question, your employee may just need some coaching about professional ways of making those statements: “X should be X-prime according to the style guide. This should be revised to use X format. Suggest adding more information on X to provide context for Y. As we noted on (date you gave them the instructions that they didn’t follow because they are awful), please use the template provided. Suggest adding (thing you didn’t ask for, but now see would be helpful).” Etc. Most of these sound like phrasing issues that can be fixed.

    2. Betsy*

      I’m in Higher Ed, so you can take this with a grain of salt, as it may not be 100% relevant. However, I do spend basically my entire life giving feedback on writing.

      1. I either just change the grammar or add a bubble comment (in Word) that just says ‘grammar’.
      2. I use ‘simplify’ if the sentence needs simplifying. I would be tempted to just highlight ‘teapots are organized chronologically by subject’ and let them sort it out. If it reads like a middle school student wrote it, I would say ‘avoid I statements/ use third person’ or ‘use more formal language’ (perhaps you could also point out the aspects of their language use that aren’t professional enough). I find that people often use very simple verbs, which might not be appropriate, depending on the context. Sometimes I also tell people to cut out adjectives, as this often makes writing better.
      3. I think I would just tell that person to stop being a jerk. My personal opinion is that far too many people give feedback in an overly brusque manner.

      Alternatively, you could have someone quite harsh give feedback on his writing. Often people give that kind of feedback when they’re busy, or they don’t realise how harsh it sounds because they have never received that kind of feedback themselves. I received feedback that made me cry quite a few times in grad school, and I honestly think it was just due to bluntness rather than maliciousness.

      I feel like one person could see an issue and write ‘This has errors’ or ‘this is wrong’ and another person could see the same issue and say ‘you could improve this section, by doing X’ or even ‘work on strengthening this section, by making changes to X and Y’. The first comment would probably upset some people and the second would be genuinely constructive.

    3. Competent Commenter*

      Ooh, this is tough, and I’ll be hiring a writer soon (am a writer myself) so I’ve been thinking about this kind of thing. I’ll take a stab at this and hope I can be helpful! I’m assuming these people are subordinate to you.

      1) If you keep marking up the same kind of sloppiness, stop marking it up. Go back to the employee and say “I’m seeing a lot of errors that would be fixed with better proofreading. Could you please review this and resubmit it?” Basically, don’t do their work for them, and see if the problem is carelessness, laziness or lack of ability. Repeat 1-2 times per project to see how much more they catch. And if this is not someone who reports to you, maybe gently return the document and say “There were a lot of errors so I thought maybe it wasn’t ready for review. Why don’t you review it and let me know when it’s ready for me.” Be less helpful, essentially, while being polite.
      2) Ooh, that one is hard. That one sounds like genuine lack of ability. If this person was my subordinate I’d consider moving them out of the role where this needs to be done. If it’s a colleague and it doesn’t reflect on me/my team, then maybe I’d let it go and stop proofreading for them on the grounds that you don’t have time, worded politely. I was assigned a temp who was supposed to write for me and had to fire him after three weeks because he wasn’t a writer. I mean, really wasn’t a writer. I don’t know what the temp pool was thinking. And I debated teaching him to be a writer and then thought, Why? That’s not my job. I’m not his high school composition instructor. This is beyond the scope of our relationship.
      3) On tone, Alison gives a lot of advice about how you can indeed tell someone that they need to be nicer to coworkers—a lot of us think you can give critical feedback on performance, but that social behavior is somehow off limits. So applying her guidance, I think it’s okay to say “Bob, I need you to rein in it a bit. You can’t use words like ridiculous. You do need to be polite. This isn’t negotiable.” On the less egregious examples, similar message, just less intense: “Can you please work on your tone a bit? It’s enough to say that it’s the wrong format. No need to say they didn’t follow instructions.” Send the work back without making corrections, and tell him he needs to work on tone and resubmit it to you. Repeat until it’s better, or you have to have a talk with him about insubordination.

      Good luck!

    4. fposte*

      TL, I gotta say, is this mostly That Guy Again? Because if so I wouldn’t spend this amount of time on him. He’s not likely to change his writing style based on feedback any more than he’s changed anything else, and I bet you could benefit your library a lot more if you were perfunctory on this and spent time to things you could actually improve.

      I’ve been working with writers for a long time. Even the best ones find it difficult to change their level of proofing and other process elements, and they’re motivated. That Guy isn’t motivated.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        It’s partly That Guy Again and it’s partly a contractor. And there’s an additional layer of complication here which is that the contractor is writing documents that need to be approved by That Guy Again as well as by me. And I hear you on spending time on things I can actually improve. I had two separate conversations with TGA today and realized from both that he just is committed to disagreeing with anything I say. I’m kind of tempted to just start saying the opposite of what I want when I talk to him, but then he’ll just have more fuel for the “Teapot Librarian is always wrong” fire.

  113. Tahiti Calling*

    More of a vent/rant, but if anyone has suggestions, I’d love to hear them.
    I am beginning to really dislike one of my coworkers. They always want things to be changed to make it “easier” for them, even though they are the only one with the issue. The latest thing is she doesn’t have passable Excel skills, so she had someone in her department teach her how to convert files/documents to PDF and then it’s a pain to try to edit/update anything she has worked on. Also, she spends so much time “shopping” for events that she generally works less than 30 hours per week, even though she is full-time. Then she goes in crisis mode when things she is responsible for doesn’t get done on time and begs for help. Other than her, I like my job very much. I’m trying to stick it out because she’s due to retire soon, but until then I just want to scream. Our manager has been out for a few weeks on leave and she has really amped up her selfish “make it easier for me” ways and shopping trips.

    2. Thlayli*

      Is it even possible to update a pdf? That sounds like a nightmare. I would raise that one with her boss as it’s a significant impact on your work.

      Regarding the shopping thing, I dunno maybe that’s part of her job? I think the best thing you can do there’s is push back when she asks you to do her job and say something like “sorry I have an appointment tonight I can’t change so I can’t stay late to help you with your work” and then follow through. Every time. Don’t do any of her work unless your boss specifically directs you to.

      if your boss directs you to, do it one last time but at the same time book a meeting with your boss to discuss work distribution, at that meeting say something like “this is the 12th time I’ve been required to finish glazing Janes teapot at late notice. It makes it hard to plan my own work and results in me doing lots of unplanned overtime and having to cancel personal appointments at late notice. I have a proposal for a more efficient way to distribute his work. For example, I’ve noticed Jane spends 2 hours a day shopping for teapot lids. I think I could do that task more efficiently, leaving Jane an extra 10 hours a week to complete the glazing. Me buying the lids would mean [impact on your other work]. If you don’t want to have that impact, perhaps we could delegate the lid shopping to someone else entirely.”

  114. Death to Open Offices*

    My large, traditional corporation is moving to open offices. I think they believe this will immediately result in “innovation” through some sort of underpants gnome style transformation.

    In my last job I spent several years in an open office. I managed the HR reps and the Recruiters and it was such a pain trying to find a conference room for any sensitive or private conversation–which frankly is a great deal of conversations in HR. This was particularly fun for us and for Finance, as we had to lock up any paper on our desk if we wanted to, say, go to the bathroom.

    I’m an extrovert and I like workplace camaraderie, but it’s too much even for me. How can we rid the world of this scourge?!?

    1. Green Goose*

      I’m in a similar situation, I’m extroverted and friendly but it was a huge pain for me to adjust from my own private office to the “cube farm” about a year and a half ago. I find it distracting, and I really don’t like the idea of people hovering behind me and looking at my work (pet peeve) so I try to find an empty office whenever I can.

      I think its helpful to have a conversation with your boss early on about your concerns, and make sure the concerns are around productivity. “I need to know that I’ll be able to have a quiet/non-distracting place to get x or y done, how can we make sure that happens?” Hopefully your office will be more open to remote work if they are moving towards cubicles?

      1. Death to Open Offices*

        My boss is great and doesn’t mind the occasional remote work day. I’m not aware of anyone abusing it. Unfortunately, the corporate stance is that we need to be consistent and since remote work isn’t ok for some positions, they want to end it. Blah! Boss also hates open office idea, but is supportive in general. My direct reports are also pretty dismayed. I think everyone will try to be respectful of each other, but no one is happy about it.

        Also, they’re even getting rid of cubes. It’s all open. I believe they’ve contracted Satan as the office planner. And I agree that people who hover behind others to peek at work are the worst. I’m always tempted to flip to a window with something awkward like, “Preparing for Your Pap Smear: What you need to know.”

  115. Just for today*

    So I’ve pretty much made up my mind to leave my job at the end of April. I realized that I really don’t like working full time in general, and this job in particular. But I don’t know what I want to do, and we recently had a couple meetings about a new management structure that I’ll hate a little less than the current one. And now I’m second-guessing my decision to leave.

    I know these changes won’t make me happy long term, and I feel like my experience here has disillusioned me of office work in general. However, it pays well and has excellent benefits. A career change would mean a 20k or more pay cut, which I’m not prepared to and still have to work 40 hours/week.

    I don’t really know if I have a question. Maybe suggestions for part time jobs that pay a living wage? Or any advice you have for a 24-year old who’s about to go crazy and have a manic episode and probably end up homeless because the thought of working full time for 20 more years is horrifying?

    1. Havarti*

      I’m a decade older than you so here’s a secret I’ll let you in on: No one likes working full-time. We all wish we could work part-time and make oodles of money. Unfortunately it doesn’t really work that way so you may have to make your peace with that.

      1.) I recommend therapy if you’re truly feeling like you’re about to go crazy and have a manic episode. Talk to someone to figure out why exactly you’re feeling this way. Do you have anxiety?

      2.) Stop thinking about having to work for the next 20 years. Living in a perpetual state of existential crisis (or just plain fear) is exhausting. Most folks function by taking it one day at a time.

      3.) How much money are you saving up? Are you living within your means? You say the job you hate pays well. Save as much as possible for as long you decide to stay there. A cushion of cash gives you more options.

      4.) Can you find another job that pays the same? You might be happier somewhere else. Not all offices are the same.

      5.) Do you have hobbies and friends? Cultivate those. Life is more than just working at a job.

      1. Havarti*

        Also, at 24, what you’re feeling is pretty common. People that age are usually out of school and trying to build their lives and don’t always know what they want to do. And that’s ok.

        1. Chriama*

          Thank you for your kind words. I would be ok with a pay cut if I worked less. And I’ve thought of going into business for myself. But I don’t really know what I want to do other than not work full time. I have enough savings to take a risk on something (new job, going back to school, etc) if I felt strongly enough about it. But the ‘traditional’ office career doesn’t appeal to me and I don’t know where to look.

          1. Havarti*

            Starting your own business is hard. I suggest trying to start it as a side-gig while working a more traditional job. I know someone who was laid off and decided to start their own business rather than look for work and well… it flopped because it takes time to build a client base, time she didn’t have ultimately and she lost her house. And do realize going into business for yourself means you do everything so you’ll likely be working full-time anyway: making the product/providing the service, advertising/social media, accounting, communication, etc.

            I’ll be honest – working in an office isn’t really my thing either. I regret not being more aggressive with saving money when I was younger so I’m really buckling down and setting some budget goals this year and thinking about starting something outside of work.

          2. Amtelope*

            Starting your own business will also mean working at least full-time hours, probably for less pay while you’re getting established. Have you discussed how you feel about working full-time with a therapist or doctor? It really is what the vast majority of people need to do in order to support themselves, and if you’re experiencing it as unbearable, it’s possible that it’s something about your mindset (or mental or physical health — untreated depression, physical problems causing low energy, etc.) is causing the problem.

            And it’s possible that you just hate office jobs, and would be much happier if you were working outdoors or from home or flexible hours — all those things are possible in various jobs. But the idea that there is some job out there in which you can make enough money to retire early while only working part-time, and if you look hard enough you’ll find it … that’s not realistic. You need to figure out how to live with putting 40-ish hours a week into doing something to make money for a long time.

            1. Just for today*

              To be fair, I don’t need all of these things to be true. My initial track was to mark time in this job and live frugally until I can retire. But I don’t think I’ll make it that long, so I’m prepared to extend my timeline as long as the journey itself becomes bearable.

    2. Thlayli*

      20 years? Retire at 44? You must earn a lot! I expect to be working another 30 years and I’m 38.

      Like pp said most people don’t like working full time. We work to live not the other way round.

      That said if you hate your job, you can totally get a new one. Part time jobs that pay a living wage are few and far between, and if you find one please let me know how. But you should definitely have a job that at a minimum doesn’t make you feel crazy! Believe it or not if you are in a job you actually enjoy, you won’t mind the full time thing so much.

      I think the root of the problem is simple – you don’t know what you want to do with your life. It’s time to figure that out. If you can afford it consider visiting a career guidance counsellor. If you can’t afford that there are loads of online career sites where you answer a bunch of personality tests and it will give you a list of jobs you might enjoy. I dunno how scientifically accurate they are but I’ve done them a few times just for fun and I’d say at least 75% of the recommendations were for jobs that I think I actually would enjoy, including some I never would have thought of myself.

      Make a shortlist of maybe 3 jobs you want to do, then figure out how to get there for each. Do you need more education or can you try to get into the industry and work your way up? Then figure out which is the most realistic for your circumstances. And just take it from there.

      This is something almost everyone does at some point – you’re just doing it a little later than most but that’s no big deal. There’s still loads of time to find a job you like. Good luck.

      1. Just for today*

        Well it’s more a matter of savings rates, as per this article (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/). I never planned to work until my 60s so I’m careful with my expenses. Working part time would obviously change that equation but so would things like getting married and having someone to share expenses with.

        I thought about changing careers but my fear again is that the decrease in pay isn’t enough to offset the fact that I’m still working 40 hours/week. But I might just be making excuses because I’m afraid of the unknown. Sometimes I feel like unhappiness I know about is better than striking out and becoming unhappy in new and terrible ways.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You’d have to find something to fill up your time. Working part time does not fill up your life.

      Have you calculated what wage you would need to pay your bills?

      1. Just for today*

        Haha, working does not fill my life in general. It just sucks so much energy from me that I don’t really feel capable of putting energy into anything else. I thought I just needed to “adjust” but it’s been almost 4 years since I graduated so that seems unlikely now. It could be because of my specific job, as others have suggested, but I guess I’m worried that I’ll drop into something else and find that I’m still as exhausted and unhappy and now I’m getting paid less to be that way. Assuming 24 hours/week (3 full days) I’d probably need to make like $30/hr to live and save like I want, but part time work looks like it’s typically low skill and low pay. I hoped to find ideas of careers to research but haven’t found much. The working world doesn’t seem set up to accommodate views like mine, I guess.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Having been through heavy bouts of exhaustion myself, it might be worth checking in with a doc to see if there is a medical basis for it.

          1. Just for today*

            Did you have medical condition? Or was your doctor able to help you make lifestyle/diet changes to treat your fatigue?

            1. Jennotype*

              I know I’m a bit late to this one but I went to the doctor about an extended period of exhaustion. Obviously it might not be the same for everyone but it turned out I was anaemic. Treating the underlying cause and some time on supplements has made a huge difference to me.

    4. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      What are your hobbies? It could be that an office job isn’t for you but another job would be. Do you like being out and about?

      Maybe you would like being a police officer, a parking enforcement agent in a city, a fire fighter, a nurse (would need more school for that), a fish and game officer?

      You’re still young and you likely have 30-40 more years of work. Maybe a non-traditional career is more your speed.

      I don’t think there is any quick fix part time get rich job unless you want to enter the realm of the illegal.

    5. Buddythefox*

      My suggestion would be to figure out what you would rather be doing, and then leave to do that (as opposed to just leaving while you’re still figuring it out). I’m just about your age, and I have struggled a LOT with figuring out what I want to do … and so far I still have no clear answers. But in each of my jobs, I have tried to learn as much as I can to hopefully get a better idea of what I do/don’t like and then move to a new job that’s slightly closer to the things I like and away from what I don’t like. Obviously money is a factor, but we spend so much darn time at work that if you like what you’re doing and who you’re doing it with, in my opinion, that can make up for a slight pay cut.

    6. Windchime*

      Maybe you’re not cut out for an office job? I’m happy in office jobs, but a lot of people don’t like them at all. So now I have a son who is a cop and another who is a manager at a grocery store. Neither one of them is cut out for the office, as it turns out.

      Maybe think about things outside of the office?

  116. Tea and Sympathy*

    Just a mini-aaaaargh: my direct report told me yesterday she’s applying for an internal promotion within our department, so I chatted about the role, competencies she would need to demonstrate, etc… (I have misgivings, but I was being supportive and also figure this is a good development opportunity, going through the process of aligning her skills to the competencies of the higher level role, practising interview answers, etc) Today, talking to my manager, I mentioned this, and my manager replied : “you need to tell her there’s no chance she’s getting the promotion, she’s simply not ready, and I’m not wasting my time interviewing someone who I wouldn’t want to see in the role”.

    So… yeah. Great. Can’t wait for *that* conversation. Roll on Monday. [sigh]

      1. Chriama*

        I don’t think misleading her report is a good idea. This is just one of those tough conversations a manager needs to have sometimes.

        1. Tea and Sympathy*

          Thanks, yeah, pretty much my thinking on it too. Don’t want it to backfire on both of us! I’ll figure it out… just a sucky situation, but hopefully she’ll come out of it feeling supported, rather than stabbed in the back!!

      2. Tea and Sympathy*

        Maybe, but that could backfire, since it’s an internal role and she’ll therefore know if the post doesn’t get filled. I’m thinking along the lines of: “I was thinking about bit more about the vacancy over the weekend, and I wanted to raise a couple of things about the expectations of the role you might find challenging, and how perhaps you need another year or so before you apply for a promotion to this level….” – then pick out a couple of the areas I see as where her development needs lie. Try to get the convention in such a way that SHE decides not to apply this time round, but that we have a planned approach to the coming year to help stand her in better stead next time. I’ll plan it out over a lazy Sunday afternoon coffee shop visit. :)

      3. Starryemma*

        Or just that you mentioned it to the higher ups & unfortunately they don’t think she’s a good match.

        1. Artemesia*

          “I talked to grandiose and while she is impressed with your work with the hamsters, she doesn’t think you are at the point where you are ready to take over Llama branding yet, so you probably need to plan to put off applying for internal transfers for another year or two.”

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Yep. Specific information is useful information. Vagueness is insulting. “They are looking for someone who has x, y and z.”
            And perhaps you can help her develop a plan so that she is able to compete better.

    2. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      I think that if you frame it the way you have here (this is a good development opportunity, going through the process of aligning her skills to the competencies of the higher level role, practising interview answers, etc) that will hopefully soften the blow a bit. That way instead of it being a “this is never going to happen” conversation it’s a “not this time, but let’s work on how to get you up to snuff so you’ve got a shot next time.”

  117. Sunflower*

    HELP! I share a small office with my boss (we’re a non-profit). She constantly chews/smacks/blows bubbles with gum all day. She chews with her mouth open and it’s so annoying to hear right behind me all day. She’s a gum addict. If she’s not chewing gum, she’s crunching on almonds or wasabi peas ONE BY ONE with her mouth open to make the crunchiest sound possible. She also makes huge moaning sounds when she yawns. It sounds nuts but it’s actually driving me so crazy that I start to get panic attacks when I hear it. I can’t use headphones because of the nature of my job and I don’t know what to do!

    1. nep*

      Oh, GAWD I feel for you. Doesn’t sound nuts at all — you should see the state I get into when I hear something like this — particularly at work. I couldn’t stand this for more than a second. So bloody inconsiderate.
      I once had a colleague who was popping her gum while we were both at our computers writing, in an open office setting. I had to say: ‘Jane, the gum noise is really distracting.’ (Something close to that — it was a long time ago.) It subsided for a bit then she started up again and I repeated — it’s distracting.
      Let us know how it goes. For your own sanity and productivity, you’ve got to say something. (Have you ever mentioned this to her before?)

    2. Det. Charles Boyle*

      There’s an actual medical condition that some people have that makes them very sensitive to chewing/eating noises. Maybe you have this and can ask for some type of HR accommodation? I hate loud chewing noises, too. I usually have to leave the room when someone starts up.

  118. Beancounter in Texas*

    Is this issue worth bringing up with my boss?

    I have non-allergic rhinitis and severe sleep apnea and when my rhinitis acts up (cold weather is a trigger), I’m balancing not over-using nasal sprays so I can breathe with trying to get good sleep. Good sleep is not always achieved even with my CPAP, seemingly for no apparent reason and also because I have a four year old that sometimes wakes me up in the wee hours of the morning. This week has been hell in the sleep department. I’m considering leaving after lunch today because I feel so horrible.

    The thing is, I consider this like any personal problem that needs to be handled at home and it is not the employer’s problem. But it’s affecting my performance and honestly, there are days where I feel another hour of sleep would be wonderful (after husband/child have left the house no less!), but I feel guilty about asking for lenience for this. Due to my childcare arrangement, I would not likely be able to make up missed hours very quickly.

    My boss also has sleep apnea (we’ve discussed it openly), so I believe she’d understand, but I don’t want to appear like I deserve special treatment. I feel like I’d be letting her down. What say y’all?

    1. Competent Commenter*

      This isn’t special treatment. I suggest a mental reframe: You have a medical condition that’s acting up, and will need to use some sick time or have some flex time to cope with it. That is perfectly reasonable. You want to get well as soon as possible and be as productive as possible at work.

      Ask your boss what arrangement would work best for periods like this. Maybe she wants to hear something like, “I’m having a flare up, and for the next week or two would like to come in in the 8-10 range instead of daily at 8 am. I’ll use sick time/take that off my timesheet/whatever you all do there. I’ll avoid scheduling morning meetings during this time.” No need to be overly apologetic, in fact, that won’t serve you. Be matter of fact. And don’t worry about making up the time; you wouldn’t if it was sick leave. If you were recovering from mono or surgery or something you might have to make a similar arrangement.

      If you’re exempt it might be a little more complicated but where I work, you have to take 8 hours of sick or none at all; on the flip side if you work at least five hours in a day you don’t have to take sick leave. So you’d say the above without the part about sick or unpaid time.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        That’s actually perfect. I do have 8 hours of sick time, but I always think of 8 hours = 1 day, like I can only use it one day at a time (which is not true). Thanks!

    2. Thlayli*

      YOu need to frame it as “I need a special accommodation due to my medical condition” not as “I want time off for a nap because my kid is a bad sleeper.”

  119. AnnonLurk*

    We’ve had some organizational changes and it’s been an uphill battle keeping things working (layoffs of people at a critical time). But those personal troubles aside, I’m starting to get worried that my increased workload will not be compensated properly in time and I’m starting to feel major burnout and animosity to my position/work.

    Me and one other coworker was told we were going to be moved into a different department at the end of January this year, and we would both be getting tittle changes and raises. The company pays on the lower end of the area’s average, but I like what I do. The physical seating arrangement has been tied up (on some end don’t know where) and now its gone radio silent about when and if we’ll even move. The other department is eagerly awaiting us and its an unspoken “everyone knows its happening” kind of deal. However, I’m getting frustrated being promised a promotion, and yet still doing more than what my position is responsible for, since I was being trained into said new position. How long is too long to wait and should I be pushing for more updates?

    The other part of this is that due to people getting pulled out from under and around me, I’ve had to take on training people and filling in multiple roles. This has caused some of my tasks more important to my upcoming position to slip through the cracks, but it has not been critical items yet. I feel though that this is will hurt my ability to negotiate.

  120. Britt*

    Short question: I’m curious…. did you find your current job by applying online? Or through someone you knew? :)

    1. Murphy*

      Just applied online. Didn’t know anyone. (Well, it’s a large university, so I knew people there, but not anyone even remotely connected to the department I work in.)

    2. ANon*

      Online. My entire job search was online. First I would use job boards, but when I had applied to all the applicable postings there, I started thinking of companies/places I’d like to work and went to their websites to see if they had any openings – and that how I got the job I’m in now!

    3. Red Reader*

      I was a temp in the coffeepots department of Llama Wranglers Ltd. but I’m a certified teapot designer. So when Camelids R Us offered me a teapot designing position, I went in to give notice to my manager. I expected her to be like “Cool, have a nice life” – what she actually said was, if someone in the teapot department can beat CRU’s offer, would you stay with LWL? I said sure, and she forwarded my resume to several people, one of whom hired me based on that manager’s recommendation after six months of temping, my resume, and a five minute phone chat.

      Since then I have been promoted and now manage a team of teapot designers for LWL.

    5. Alex*

      Online. I work in the public sector so I am constantly amazed at how things are in the private sector. Other than having someone tell you a job is open, connections don’t really get you very far.

    7. Britt*

      It’s great to read so many that applied online! I -felt like- I got lucky with a position a few years back… applied online to a fortune 100 company and got the job – moved cross-country. I’ve now moved back east, and have been job searching. I have a good lead with one company – but I’ve just been reading all over how many people found jobs networking and that applying online is like a black hole. Glad to see it’s not all true!

    8. Olive Hornby*

      Through someone I know, with a couple of degrees of separation. I’ve actually never gotten a (non-internship) job only by applying online. Sadly, this is typical for my industry, but I think my industry is weird in that regard.

    9. Thlayli*

      I applied for a job that was advertised online. Didn’t get that one but they hired me to do something else anyway.

    10. Goya de la Mancha*

      Current job was an internal promotion, but the job that got me in the door was word of mouth that company was hiring a llama herder position at the llama grooming building. I’ve always thought that I was horrible at the whole networking thing, but looking back….90% of my work history is because of people I knew.

    11. Julianne*

      Applied online, but not to this job specifically. I applied to my employer’s “talent pool;” they found me and interviewed me for another job, passed on me for that one, then hired me for a different job (at which I’m much better than I’d have been in the first job, I think).

    12. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      This role, I got by applying online for a temp position, and then making them dependent on me and getting converted to full time. But my work history is a hodge-podge of getting referred by people and applying blindly. Oddly, my best jobs have been the ones I’ve applied to blindly. A lot of the jobs I’ve been referred to have been nightmares, and then I felt obligated to stick it out in order to not hurt my referrer’s reputation.

    13. Weyrwoman*

      I did! And it was a stretch job because it was out of state and I was looking to move into state. I found my last job online too.

    14. Windchime*

      Applying online. I knew a couple of people who worked in the larger department, but I didn’t contact them. I work in an IT department that is somewhat connected to a university.

  121. Bend & Snap*

    I’ve been interviewing with a company since September. Lost count of how many interviews. They disappeared for about 6 weeks and I wrote them off. Then they called and asked me to interview for a new role. That was a month ago, then nothing. The recruiter popped up this week for an intake interview and next steps are at least 4 more interviews.

    This is the…5th?…position they’re interviewing me for and I don’t have any feedback on why they didn’t hire me for any of the other ones. I have asked.

    This is a sister company to my current company and I can’t figure out why they keep putting me into these long interview processes and then not hiring me or giving me any feedback.

    Am I an idiot for doing this again? I don’t really have any hope that they’re going to hire me.

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      Hey, how much is your time worth to you? I’ll be more than it’s worth to them. I wouldn’t do this if you like the job you’re in okay.

  122. Dubious Penguin*

    Hey everyone. Long-time reader, first-time poster.

    I work at a large company that is in the US but has a lot of Indian employees. Because of this, a lot of departments have a Diwali celebration every year. Our department’s “engagement team” is currently considering doing a “Hallowali” celebration instead, because Diwali falls so close to Halloween. The gist I get is that it will basically incorporate elements of both, so there will be a costume party and pumpkin-themed treats, as well as Indian food and dress.

    I don’t know, this seems…borderline offensive to me? It feels like taking someone’s cultural celebration and mashing it up with a secular celebration for no other reason than calendar proximity. But maybe I’m overreacting. I’m not Indian and I’m not close enough with any of my Indian co-workers to ask them what they think and feel confident of getting an honest answer. Anyone have an opinion on this?

    1. Snark*

      Ooooooh, yeah, that seems not great. Diwali is….well, it’s not like Christmas at all, but it’s got a similar prominence in India to Christmas. It’s a Big Deal Holiday. If it were something like Holi, which is somewhat less important and is also crazy and playful, I could see it, but Diwali is not something I’d combine with a fairly frivolous and unimportant holiday in Western culture.

      I actually think it’s worth it to bring this to the “engagement team,” because if they’re not Indian, they’re not going to appreciate how they’re kind of minimizing and trivializing a fairly important holiday. And like you said, the Indians in the group might not be comfortable speaking out about it.

    3. LCL*

      Mash up parties are for immediate friend groups only, because the good ones are tacky by design. No company should be doing this kind of party, regardless of how many Indian employees they have.

    4. EJ*

      This is a nightmare waiting to happen. You need to go to the “engagement team” ASAP and tell them this is a bad idea.

    5. Dubious Penguin*

      You are all confirming what I was thinking. I’m going to bring this up with the engagement team ASAP. They’re in the middle of doing all the planning for our department activities for the year.

    6. Thursday Next*

      I’m assuming the creators of “Hallowali” (I cringed while typing this) aren’t Hindu?

      It’d be kind of like, I don’t know, doing a mashup between Easter and Groundhog Day. Not advisable! I’m a pretty relaxed Hindu but this would be a line not to cross. I think your instincts are good.

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        So, like, on the third day when they rolled back the stone, Jesus came out and if he saw his shadow there’d be 6 more weeks of Lent?

    7. The New Wanderer*

      Please stress that they seem to be conflating “dressing up in costume” with “wearing cultural attire” which is really not cool. See also every news story about someone/some group appropriating another culture and facing significant backlash over it.

    8. Thlayli*

      Why not sound out a couple of your Indian coworkers first before assuming they are offended? If they are actually offended I suggest you offer to go as a group or on your own to hr. if they are not offended then you don’t need to be.

      Personally I wouldn’t be in any way offended off my company had a party to celebrate both a religious holiday I celebrate and another holiday that occurs at the same time. I would be like “yeah more reason to party”. But I’m not particularly religious. Perhaps your coworkers feel the way I do; perhaps they feel the way you do, but I junk you should at least ask them how they feel before getting offended on their behalf.

      Also bear in mind that husband wouldn’t even have been proposed if there was no one who wanted to celebrate Halloween. If you make a complaint and this gets cancelled, they will probably just be able to pay for one celebration which presumably would be Diwali. the Hindi coworkers could then get some shade from the coworkers who wanted to celebrate Halloween. So maybe let them make the decision before bringing that down on them, or else make sure you tell any complainers that you were the one who got Halloween cancelled.

      Or they might decide no celebrateion at all, in which case the Hindi workers might be annoyed.

    9. Nacho*

      It’s not uncommon. A lot of places have winter holiday” parties that are supposed to celebrate Christmas, Chanukah, Kwanzaa, and the winter solstice.

      It’s done partially to avoid having a billion parties every year, and partially because these are religious holidays and not everybody celebrates them.

      I’d leave it up to the Indians on your team to speak out about it, and try to avoid being offended on their behalf. It’s possible they don’t actually care, and you don’t want to be the guy who gets offended at the drop of a pin.

    10. Lissa*

      I think the most important question is – are there any Indian coworkers on the “engagement team”? If not, i would definitely speak up because that has the potential to be really really bad. Though they might have talked to coworkers who celebrate Diwali and it’s fine so I wouldn’t jump in guns blazing, but would deeeefinitely bring up that this could go very wrong.

      if there are people on the engagement team who are Indian and celebrate Diwali then I would leave it. Otherwise you risk looking like woke white person telling people they’re doing their culture wrong.

    11. Ann O.*

      I have a question about what you know of the process of how this decision was made. Who was involved? Who had an opportunity to chime in?

      I don’t think you have the cultural knowledge to decide that this is offensive or to go to the engagement team with that language. But I think there are some common sense guidelines about the decision making that you can raise (maybe? it’s unclear from your letter what you can actually do). It is a common sense guideline that the people most affected by the Diwali celebration should be central to any decision making about how the celebration is well… celebrated. So if the engagement team failed to that, I think that’s an issue you can and should raise.

      Although FWIW, as a non-Diwali celebrator also in an area with a lot of Indians, this seems way off base to me, too.

    12. Nervous Norvus*

      Chiming in a bit late, but anyone remember The Office’s “Diwali” episode, where Michael Scott and his gf show up in costume (two-headed version of himself and cheerleader, respectively) to his employee’s Diwali celebration? Then again, while there’s commentary, no one ends up really caring.

      I agree with the comments that the engagement team should be – well, engaging the people who would most be affected by how Diwali is celebrated, and if they haven’t, then maybe that’s the level you should bring your concerns on.

      Also consider that combining the two seems like it would block (or at least make it futzy for) your Indian coworkers from participating in the Halloween costume party if they wanted to, too!

  123. Maya*

    Anyone have recommendations for moving out of admin work? I’m currently in my first job out of college (and not looking to leave anytime soon, but trying to think through what I would do when I am ready to move on), working at a nonprofit on international policy issues (which is what I eventually want to get into, something involving research or political advocacy) but mostly doing event planning and admin organization rather than getting direct experience in the type of work I’d want to move into. If anyone here can talk about their experience moving from an entry-level admin role to something more specialized, I’d love to hear about it!

    1. Tea and Sympathy*

      Hmmmm, personally I would say think about what transferable skills you can gather in your current roles related to the field you want to move into. If you can’t get the right sort of experience, you can maybe still find a way to demonstrate the right sort of skills. So, perhaps in your current role, see if there’s a mini project or workstream you can ask to get involved with, or identify a process improvement in your area that you can offer your manager you can put in place, make efficiencies/savings, train other staff how to do it, etc… basically, do the “extra” things that aren’t part of your job, but demonstrate you’ve got skills that could be used in other fields of work. I moved out of an admin role into a specialist role by demonstrating particular skills (not in a Liam Neeson way, haha), rather than specific experiences, in my application and interview.

  124. My Cat Posted This For Me, MA*

    Dealing with a difficult faculty member situation. I direct communications for a unit in a university. We used to have a shoddy main website plus lots of separate websites that faculty members/projects set up on different platforms and with different designs. A few years ago we paid the big bucks for a comprehensive website and brought everyone into it. Now we’ve got a hotshot tenured faculty member who joined us recently from another institution who has had her grad student launch a separate website for her special program. Different platform, different look. They even took the custom URL and pointed it to this new site. We’ve got a nice design for programs like this so our program mini-sites look good, have lots of big banner photos, etc. I made it clear before faculty member did this that we could meet their needs if they wanted something our current site doesn’t do, explained why this wasn’t a good idea, etc. Didn’t hear back. Have continued to maintain and support their content. Then they went and did developed this new site anyway. Now there are two sites. This faculty member is in general difficult to work with. I have support from our Dean on this, and we’re all going to meet, but I can tell that the Dean has to tread lightly (the email was very carefully worded). I find this so frustrating. It’s hard to get much respect as a communications person—nonprofessionals don’t always understand why consistent branding, voice, quality, etc. matters. This situation is really pushing my buttons. Any advice, similar experiences or sympathy welcomed.

    1. Bend & Snap*

      Can you propose university-wide branding guidelines and process, and any platforms in violation of those will be brought into compliance? It’s a long-term project, but gives you something concrete to point to when people go rogue, and the authority to fix it.

      I work in comms too :)

      1. My Cat Posted This For Me, MA*

        The university does have branding guidelines, and I’m actually going to bring that up with another issue with them. Very happy to be able to use the appeal to authority in that case! But with the website, I don’t want to get into too much identifying detail, but they are essentially not violating university branding guidelines. I am practicing my arguments for why their separate website is undermining our unit identity and branding.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Lots of sympathy here. My first question was, who the heck pointed the custom URL (I’m assuming at your university’s domain) to the new site? That’s something only the administrators should be able to do, and it’s really bad SEO. Some browsers will alert you that you’re being redirected to a different site, and give you some kind of security warning, because it’s a BAD IDEA. If I was surfing Teapots.edu and I got sent to LlamaTickling.com, I’d close my browser immediately and assume that the site was hacked.

      That said, it’s up to people like us to make sure their needs are being met. If his only need is to have ultimate control and have his ego stroked by being the exception, you probably can’t meet those needs and it’ll be up to the Dean whether the professor is allowed to keep the site as representative of the university. In my field we have style and accessibility requirements that I can do better than anyone who hasn’t been working in this field for years, so that’s one incentive for our individual areas to put their content on the parent org’s site. But if they object, sometimes I’ll try to train them to do the quality control themselves, which sometimes overwhelms them, but sometimes they get it, and it’s less work for me, even if it is inconsistent.

      1. My Cat Posted This For Me, MA*

        Yeah, the URL part is frustrating. It was done by an IT person elsewhere on campus (not in my unit). They should have alerted me, though, as I’ve told them to stop helping rogue faculty/staff who ask for new sites and this is rogue site plus hijacking the URL. But the ownership of that URL is unclear because it’s handled based on who the requester was, and I only connected faculty and IT person, didn’t make the request directly. I’m doing more research on this. But I don’t think it will create a security issue for visitors (too bad!) because it’s more like llamas.teapotuniversity.edu whereas the URL I can make myself for them on our site (say we’re the engineering department) is engineering.teapotuniversity.edu/llamas.

        And yes, you’re right, the Dean will have to make the decisions. I’ll do my best to make using our site be the more tempting choice, and also to get more data in front of our Dean about why this undercuts his specific promotional efforts right now. Thanks for the sympathy! I need it!

    3. Ten*

      I’m going to be a contrarian here. Humans need visual cues to distinguish things and that goes for websites as well. If all the pages look the same, then on some strange, unconscious level in our brains, they ARE all the same. Think of it this way — if we look at a field of flowers, we see the field, not individual flowers. We have to force ourselves to see each flower separately. If the faculty member wants to be outstanding, they can’t just look like everyone else.

      1. My Cat Posted This For Me, MA*

        I feel you on this, which is why our website is very customizable, and I made special graphics for them. And ironically, the design they chose for their rogue site is one used by a lot of other people, so it looks extremely generic for our field, and not particularly like a high-powered program of any kind.

    4. KayEss*

      Oh my god, the literal bane of my existence as a former university website manager. Unfortunately, without high-level administration backing, there’s little you can do. It sounds like the dean is on your side and willing to confront the issue, which is a lot more than I can say about some situations I’ve experienced. If the dean winds up having to shrug his shoulders, you may unfortunately have to just… let it go. It’s frustrating as all get-out, but academic politics has no solution.

      Also, at the risk of sounding bitter (I’m hella bitter, btw): university marketing/communications is a field/industry combo in which you will never get any respect. Ever. No matter what you do, it will be an uphill battle the entire way.

      1. KayEss*

        One possible last-ditch argument you could throw would be that, with the way modern SEO works, the .edu URLs of your university pages almost definitely have a lot more SEO “weight” than the new .com or whatever site they have set up.

        But be prepared for that to not work and for them to then whine to you that their site is not getting enough hits. (Actual situation I experienced.)

        1. My Cat Posted This For Me, MA*

          It’ll still be .edu. So not much leverage there. But I think I do have the leverage that they’re a premiere new program that the Dean specifically wants promoted…but there can’t be two websites for the same program out there. We can’t link to this new site, which doesn’t even mention our unit. We would hate to have to remove them completely from our website and what, not promote them anymore? Maybe they’ll get that.

      2. My Cat Posted This For Me, MA*

        Thanks, that all is actually really validating. Which must mean I’m well on my way to bitter too! :)

        1. KayEss*

          My last university job, the marketing director made a joke to the team during my onboarding: “she already has university experience, so we won’t have to watch her soul die!” I loved everyone on my team (adversity makes for a very tight-knit, us-against-the-world feel), I loved the actual work I did, and in a lot of ways I genuinely loved being part of the higher ed environment… but it was so hard, and everyone was SO bitter. I don’t know what would make me take a job at a university again at this point. Working in an environment where the people you’re serving are dismissive of or actively hostile toward your work and expertise is crushing.

          1. My Cat Posted This For Me, MA*

            Wow, that sounds even worse than my situation. I won’t forget that quote! I’m pretty new to university work, although I have many years of communications experience in other areas. My biggest problem is that I don’t have enough (any!) staff to manage everything and I’m burning out hard on the workload and the constant feeling of never being enough.

  125. Liane*

    Finishing up my first week as a library page this afternoon. here’s how it’s going.
    First, for Doctor Stranger–sorry I didn’t answer you last week. It was late when I saw your reply and wasn’t sure you’d see it. I am a circulation page; I don’t think we have any specifically reference pages here, as it is a small branch library. (Our system is the largest in the state with 9 branches, mostly in my county and many reciprocal agreements.)
    I do typical page things–shelve books, check the book drop, fill carts with books/DVDs/CDs to be reshelved, pull books with reserve/interlibrary loan requests, and closing duties. Later on, I will be trained on the desk. Like all the pages here, I report to the branch assistant manager, Hypatia.

    VERY pleasant week with great bosses and coworkers. Everyone came up to greet me as soon as they saw me and are so helpful. As an experiment they had the great HR person, Kara, come out to onboard me onsite, rather than sending me to the Main Library, then I met with Hypatia for an hour. They covered pretty much everything. Hypatia has planned for me to spend about an hour a shift reading manuals, rather than days of just reading, which wouldn’t get the work done. The rest of the time I shadow one of the other pages, helping them with the tasks. Hypatia also noted down on her calendar when I needed time off for a previously-planned trip, which I had brought up when she offered me the job. (Thanks Alison for the script and timing advice!)
    Next day, I met with Eve Baird, the manager, who is also great and made sure I knew that “My door is open” means just that and so does her and Kara’s “Tell us if anyone harasses you, patron or coworker, so we can deal with it” also means just that.
    While this is a parttime 20 hour position, the way hours are handled is great. My schedule is set, unless I need to make a change, with 1 Saturday in a 2 week pay period–so I can easily plan my weekends in advance. I’m expected to make up time I miss but I don’t get paid if my shift is on a holiday–yes I am going to ask if I can make that time up too. On the other hand, Library System’s policy is that if they close or have short hours due to weather and you are scheduled for that time, you get paid for that full 4-8 hour shift.
    Oh, one more great thing, before I end my novella. HR Kara told me that if I wanted to I could get a full time Library Assistant position without the library science credentials. I may talk to Hypatia and Eve about this later on. If anyone’s read this far, is my 3 month review a good time, or is 6 months better.

  126. Cappuccino*

    Ugh! I accidentally clicked submit on my first post, but when I did a find in page I couldn’t find it

    1. Cappuccino*

      Aaaand I just did it again…

      This is a duplicate question which I have asked further upthread. Alison, please feel free to delete this one if you would like to.

  127. go eagles*

    What’s reasonable to expect of employees when you have an unusual day that makes travel limited?

    Yesterday, the Eagle’s superbowl parade was held in our city. We are located about 20 minutes outside the city, and just 1 block away from the closest train station (that travels to the city). As a result, some folks live in the city and travel here for work.

    During the parade, the train schedule changes drastically (no trains coming to us in the morning, nothing going back to the city in the afternoon (until 7), plus our station was closed). All of our part time folks pick their own schedules, which mean some work as many as 35 hours and some work as little 10-15/week. Everyone is able to move hours around to another day. So when we found out about these changes, most employees moved their hours to Wednesday and today. One person, however, did not want to do this, and wants to be compensated for the hours he will lose that day, if we couldn’t find a way to get her here. (We have no sick or vacation time for part time people.) What is the right thing to do in this case? A couple people found a bus that would get them here roughly on time (lateness is absolutely not an issue here; like I said, employees are beholden to hours scheduled, not days).

    I feel like people are obligated to find their own way to work, and if they can’t, they should do their hours another day of the week. If they can’t, they forfeit the hours. Am I horrible or way off base?

    1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      I’d be curious to see if Alison will see this and what she thinks. I live in the outskirts of this city myself, and I have friends that work in the city that had a few different scenarios. One was told by her employer that everyone could work from home, as most take the trains in to work and they were running either full or at off times. The other is a contractor, and he was given the option to work (right near city hall), but he would have to leave at 3:00 am, and wouldn’t be able to leave the city until after 7:00 pm.

    2. LCL*

      You have already done the right thing, which is allow her to pick a different shift to get her hours. Your last paragraph sums it up. You are not horrible. Not that one should be cavalier with part timers’ hours; missing hours can really hurt them, but you are allowing her to make up the hours.

    3. First time buyer*

      I agree with you, it’s a shame the service employee missed some hours but they need to take responsibility for getting to work.

    4. Kinsley*

      I experienced this a couple years ago when the Royals won the World Series. Our company made us simply figure out how to get there. Full stop. We weren’t even allowed to take our vacation time (policy was that it had to be requested two weeks in advance) or sick time (had to have a doctors note). I think letting your employees work a different day is 100% a great move. The employee is being ridiculous. If they don’t work the hours, they shouldn’t be paid for the hours.

  128. Rookie Manager*

    Do you ever wish work karma would leave you alone?

    One of my reports is young and enthusiastic. He had an idea for a process that will help our clients and has developed it. It’s a great idea and he’s done pretty well with the execution. HOWEVER, the execution could be awesome if he wasn’t so wrapped up in his vision. Trying to edit and perfect this with him is a nightmare because he is so stubbon. Then suddenly he’ll go ‘What? It’s okay to use blue handles and red lids for these teapots to make them easy to tell apart! Ok, yeah, that will really work!”

    *sigh* If only he would listen and accept my experience. It would be worse if I didn’t remember how young, enthusiastic and stubbon I once was.

  129. Can't Sit Still*

    How do I persuade my boss that we don’t need to keep hard copies of all of the journals she receives? Our industry is changing so fast that studies can be out of date by publication, and everything older than a year is definitely outdated. We are rapidly running out of shelf space and I’m the only one that looks at them, and that’s only because I’m the one shelving them.

    We have online access to all of these journals, plus we have an in-house library with librarians on staff 24/7 if we really need to find something specific in a hurry.

    1. fposte*

      Why does she say she wants to keep the hard copies? What is it that you hope to do with the shelf space/labor hours if you stop getting them?

      I suspect she’s at the “It doesn’t hurt anything” level of the approach, so the “it doesn’t hurt anything” approach to change won’t convince her of any advantage. What I’d emphasize is what change *would* get the office–it would free up 4 hours per week for you to get to the origami project and shelf space for the tragically boxed up antique stapler collection.

      But if you can’t make a case for any significant advantage of not doing it beyond the fact that it seems silly to you, I would suck it up and keep going for a while.

    2. Itsnotacoldjustafever*

      Maybe you can convince her to donate them to a university/professional organization library?
      If you can’t find it, then keeping it is worthless. If the index in online, and the articles are online, it makes no sense to keep the hardcopy journals.

    3. zora*

      Ha, I am in a similar situation with my boss! Not stuff constantly coming in, thank goodness, but some old stuff she wants to keep “Just in case”.

      One idea: can you write out a one-sheet with all of the steps (including screenshots) to either find something in an online edition, or to have the librarians retrieve it? Part of it with my boss is she is not entirely tech-comfortable, so it worries her that she might not know how to do something.

      And then start with small steps? Suggest you only keep the last 6 months or 3 months on hand, and you will keep the guide on hand in case she needs anything older than that. Or whatever amount of time will only require a few inches of shelf space instead of the whole damn office. ;o)

      I’m waiting on my situation now, but at some point I’m going to start slowly and surreptitiously weeding the collection until it is a more reasonable amount. Because, no, we really don’t need 300 page guides to “Promoting Your Brand On Social Media” from 2012. {{{eyeroll}}}

  130. New To This*

    How important is it to have good clothes for an interview? I’m a college student and next week I’ve got my first ever actual job interview (yay!). The problem is, I don’t have many dressy clothes with me on campus, and I’m a broke college student- how big of a deal would it be if I showed up in business casual instead of a suit?

    I’m sorry if the answer is really obvious, I don’t want to mess this interview up.

    1. Anon Anon*

      I think it depends on your definition of business casual and the industry.

      If it’s say a very nice sweater or blouse and slacks/pencil skirt, then I think it would be fine (especially if you dressed it up with accessories) for most industries. However, if you are interviewing in finance, medicine, law, etc., those tend to be more conservative industries, and you should probably wear a suit.

      1. Little Twelvetoes*

        For finance, needing to wear a suit might depend more on what kind of company you are applying with. A CPA firm, to work as a CPA? Probably wear a suit. A financial consulting firm, to work as one of their consultants? Probably wear a suit. A local government, to be a staff accountant? Nice slacks or skirt, semi-dressy shirt or blouse (blazer or sweater a nice extra) could be fine.

    2. Eye of Sauron*

      Generally speaking you really want to dress for an interview in professional interview clothes, in other words a suit. You may need to define what business casual means to your wardrobe.

      There are exceptions to this; industry, known environmental, and direction from interviewer on what to wear.

      As a college student, it can actually go either way, some may cut you slack because you are a student. Others may judge you more harshly because you are just starting out and without much experience you should at least hit softballs.

      Assuming none of the above exceptions exist; At a minimum, you should wear something close to suit-like. Black pants, blouse or button down shirt, smart shoes (heels or dress), and something jacket like. Cardigan for women and a tie for men.

      Quick lower cost suggestions for this time or next (yes please make an interview outfit a priority because you will need one): JCPenny’s if you have a close one, discount retailers (Marshalls, TJ Maxx, etc), Kohls or Target. Thrift stores may not yield what you need in your time frame but doesn’t hurt to try. Can you borrow anything from a friend? Ask Mom or Dad to ship you some of your dressy clothes from home. Last suggestion if dresses are appropriate for you, suit dress if applicable (can be cheaper because it’s one piece).

      Good luck!

    3. clow*

      It really depends on the industry you are interviewing for. In mine, coming in a suit would look weird because we are known for being very lax in dresscode and business casual would be fine.

      1. clow*

        i should add, my rule of thumb is to look at what people wear at this place and dress a step up from that.

    4. LAI*

      Depends on the industry and how casual your business casual is. Since you can’t know exactly what your interviewer will be expecting, it’s always better to wear a suit if you can (other posters have already mentioned some low-cost options to consider). If you absolutely can’t get a suit together, at least wear conservative colors (black or gray), understated accessories, etc. In more casual environments, you might be fine with the kind of outfit that Eye of Sauron described. I still remember the recent grad who came to her interview wearing a polka-dot cocktail dress…

    5. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Check to see if your university offers free interview suit rentals for its students through its career center. I know ours does!

    6. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I’d start asking around if anyone has something you can borrow. I’m betting that someone on campus has something that you can wear.

    7. Temperance*

      Check your local thrift shop! I bought my interview suit at Macy’s. Calvin Klein separates are a pretty good steal, if you have some money to work with. If not, maybe ask your parents to FedEx a suit?

    8. Weyrwoman*

      I know another replier suggested thrift shopping, but it might also be useful to ask around your dorm/classmates? Maybe someone is nearish your size, has clothing, and is willing to lend a shirt and skirt out? (don’t forget shoes! Smart black flats are always a good investment)

    9. Anono-me*

      Lots of communities have charities that provide people with professional clothes for interviews and sometimes for the beginning of the job.

  131. DorothyP*

    How can I stop taking my boss’ crankiness personally? My boss’ stress levels very much dictate how she interacts with my colleagues and I (when she’s overwhelmed, she can be snappy and dismissive, or when I ask a simple question she’ll give me a huge expansive answer that includes a lot of details that I’m well aware of which in turn makes me fear that she thinks I don’t know these things). It’s frustrating because when she’s in a good mood, she’s super nice and supportive, encouraging even but she’s getting married in the spring and we’re in a busier time with some definite (out of our hands) disappointments which has led her to be prickly more often and it’s hard to not take it personally and let it affect my mood. It doesn’t help that I’m bringing my own hefty insecurities to this role which I’m already working on getting past.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      The only thing I have is to turn the tables. Be consoling. “Yes, Boss, I understand. I will do it. It will be okay.”
      OR
      “Yes, Boss, I have done these before and you seemed pretty happy with how I did it.”

      At some point maybe you can work into conversation that her tone of voice changes and people notice. She may not even realize how other people read her tone of voice. And that could look like, “Oh, Boss, you sound tense today, what’s up? Can I help with something specific?”

  132. Someone else*

    I asked this question in a previous open thread, but it was late and I didn’t really get any responses so I’m trying again.

    Could someone explain networking to me? Pretend I’m five years old and have never heard this term before and tell me “what is networking?” Please don’t assume I have any preconceived notions about networking. Treat me like I know nothing and it’s a brand new concept. Thanks.

    1. Little Twelvetoes*

      To network, you should start by meeting lots of people in your company/industry and/or field. You might meet these people while working at your job, attending conferences or other industry events, etc. Try to learn about how their interests, skills, and knowledge connect with yours. For the people you form a good connection/fit with, try to keep in contact with them professionally after meeting them. Share your knowledge with them – this should be a two-way exchange. You can then also make more connections through your first connections.

      Let’s say you meet Jane at an industry conference and you enjoy talking with her about your love of teapot design. On a later normal day at work, you are stumped by how to accomplish designing a new teapot handle using a material you have never used before. You remember Jane talking about her experience with this material, so you call/email her with a question. She responds with some tips, but she mostly has experience with lids, not handles, but she works with Wakeen who specializes in working with this in materials when designing handles. She asks Wakeen if he would be willing to contact you. Wakeen does and is able to answer your question. Congratulations! You just added another person to your network. And now Wakeen might contact you in a few months, because he remembers that you have had extensive experience with glazing teapots and he wants to learn more about glazing! He also has heard from his friend Cersei that her company is looking to hire someone with glazing experience and he would like to put you in touch with her in case you would like to be considered for the role.

      …and so on and so forth…

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      I explain things to five-year-olds all the time; I’ll give it a whirl.

      Networking is what it’s called when you meet and get to know and keep in contact with people who can help you with your professional goals, such as getting a job or learning more about the industry you work in or would like to work in. That group of people, who may know each other but more likely just have you in common, is called your network.

      People like to spend time with other people who are agreeable/pleasant to be around, or whom they admire. They also like to make YOU part of their networks if you can help THEM. If you are a part of their network, they are a part of yours. You have connections to people in their network that way. So one way to make that happen is to offer the other person something of value to them: for example, an introduction to a friend or coworker of yours that is hiring. If you don’t have something that is of great value right now, you might engage in a conversation about a recent article on your shared profession, or do something else to appear pleasant and helpful. Then they will remember you as a nice person to work with, or someone with good professional insights, etc., and will be more likely to either offer you something of value (job, club sponsorship, lawyer referral) or say yes when you ask them for something.

      1. Someone else*

        Thank you, this is very helpful. It also now makes a lot of sense to me why I never grokked networking.

  133. Persephone Mulberry*

    Lately I’ve really been struggling with feeling like I’m about 10 years behind schedule on where my career could or should be. I can’t figure out if I’m running afoul of some serious impostor syndrome or what, but I’ve been in the workforce for 15+ years but I feel like I have five years’ worth of skills, max. It’s frustrating and demoralizing and I don’t know what the solution is.

    1. Irene Adler*

      For what it’s worth, lots of people feel this way.
      For a start, have you actually written out what your job skills are, what things you’ve accomplished in your jobs and what all you do at your job (current and priors)? I’m suggesting doing this over a period of time, not just a quick jotting down of a few things.

      If you do feel you are lacking, then seek out ways to remedy. Take classes, earn professional certifications, join -and become active in- a professional organization, volunteer, etc.

    2. Betsy*

      I feel this way too. I also think a lot of people do feel this way, but especially perfectionists, because we can be so hard on ourselves.

      I think it helps to take a bit of a reality check. Most people compare themselves with super successful friends, but if you think about all the people you know, and not just the super high-achievers, most people have pretty average jobs, not superstar careers.

      There are those lucky people who went straight through university and got good professional jobs straight away, and were given regular promotions, but I honestly only know a few of those. For most people career changes or raising kids or life circumstances all got in the way at some point. I think many people are justifiable proud of their jobs, but not because they’re neurosurgeons. Most people make a positive, but quite modest contribution to society.

  134. WG*

    Wow – just came across this actual job description on a national job posting board:

    Vibe Manager
    [company name and location removed]
    $18,000 – $19,000 a year
    Job Summary

    Feel out the office vibe

    Responsibilities and Duties

    You’ll figure it out.

    Qualifications and Skills

    You know it if you have it.

    Benefits

    Karma

    Job Type: Full-time

    Salary: $18,000.00 to $19,000.00 /year

    Don’t think I’ll apply!

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Oh goodness. So not even the company knows what a Vibe Manager does? Is this serious? I’d apply just to see if they call back, what kind of people they are.

    3. Chriama*

      Reminds me of a posting I saw to be a volunteer teacher. The ad said you can expect 70 HOURS/week (40 of teaching classes and then additional time with after school clubs and grading and admin work) and we’re trying to present it as a great opportunity to volunteer. I can’t remember if there was a stipend or if it was unpaid but I remember being po’d at the gall they had. 70 hours of work for a position paying peanuts or maybe nothing. I’m still mad just thinking about it now.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I feel like if someone told me they were a Vibe Manager, I would think their job was, uh… adult in nature.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Oh, that’s true. I was picturing someone like Otto from The Simpsons. “Just gotta feel the vibes, dude.”

        Your interpretation is equally hilarious though.

  135. Higher Ed Database Dork*

    Just a little celebration – my department is working on getting a legit lactation room set up for me (and future pumpers)! They had intended to do this for a while now, but 1) rarely have new, nursing mothers working here 2) the only person to pump recently has her own private office. I’m in a cubicle, so I went to HR and talked with my boss, and everyone is being super accommodating. I first thought I was just going to get a little storage room but they are actually converting an old office into a permanent lactation space.

    It makes me feel good that this will benefit other people in the future too. There are some really nice lactation rooms on our main campus, but not here in the data center, so hopefully this will get HR thinking about the other non-campus buildings that need this kind of space! I’m also proud of myself for actually asking and not just sucking it up and pumping in the bathroom, like my mom suggested. She’s very conflict averse, and if there wasn’t an accommodation already in place, she’d NEVER ask.

    Also I recognize I am privileged in this manner because I’m at a large institution that has the FMLA coverage. I keep thinking about that open thread poster from last week who was not going to get any accommodations. I hope she was able to find a workable solution!

    2. KayEss*

      This is awesome, and you’re awesome! Thanks for taking that stand both for off-campus facilities, and particularly ones that might skew toward male-dominated like a data center.

  136. Gloucesterina*

    Microsoft Word experts and/or Googling experts:

    I’m having trouble getting my various CV items with dates to line up flush with the right margin. E.g.

    Milk Chocolate Teapot Training 2017
    Dark Chocolate Teapot Training 2016, 2017

    What should I google or what Word tools should I use to make these line up?

    1. Gloucesterina*

      I should say the above example exaggerates the degree of misalignment with the right margin. That is, I can get some items exactly lined up (usually when there’s only one year to list) and when there’s a YEAR, YEAR or a YEAR-YEAR range to list, the alignment looks off by a character or so, and I can’t seem to fix by hitting the space bar, which I assume is the wrong thing to use to try to create alignment in the first place but am stymied in my Googling for alternatives. Thank you!

    3. SkyePilot*

      If you haven’t already tried this, you may want to turn on the “Show/Hide ¶” function so you can see what kind of spacing you are dealing with. Makes it easier to spot errant spaces or returns!

      1. Gloucesterina*

        Thank you SkyePilot, I did turn on that function, and have gotten rid of all the random tabs and spaces!

    4. LCL*

      I’m not a word ace, but I can do some things. The example has everything lined up on the left margin. Do you want it lined up on the right instead? That would be flush (align) right, from the home menu in the paragraph section select align right.
      Or do you want everything to take up the same amount of space? From the same menu, select justify.

  137. too much time in the car*

    Commutes! How long is your commute? I’m starting an exciting new job (with a major raise in pay) in a month, but my commute is going from 25-30 minutes to 35-40 minutes each way, and I’m terrified it’s going to suck. (I’m going the opposite direction of traffic and should rarely, if ever, get stuck in any – it’s just a lot of highway miles.) Do people survive such long commutes?? Am I crazy to take this on? Is that untenable? My fiance and I are considering moving, to shorten the drive by ten minutes each way, but we love love love our neighborhood.

    1. Ambpersand*

      I just moved last summer from the middle of the country to a neighboring city and my commute went from 25ish minutes to 45-50 minutes (depending on speed and traffic). Not going to lie, it sucks, but it’s been made a ton better by lots of audiobooks, podcasts, and upbeat spotify playlists. As an introvert I don’t hate the commute because it gives me some good decompression time after a long day at work, but I do wish it was shorter. I also use some of the extra time to chat with my mom or sister, and get in those long “catching up” phone calls. Sometimes I even just call my husband (who is already home at that point) to talk about our day, decide what we want for dinner in case he can start prepping something, or plan for the weekend. Those make the time go by faster.

    2. Can't Sit Still*

      My current commute is 35 minutes to travel only 9 miles. I’d much rather drive 30 – 40 miles during that same amount of time, but then, I really miss driving without stopping every 3 minutes, so YMMV.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yes to this – I’ve done both and being able to just drive without constantly braking is so much better. I never got stressed out on the reverse-traffic commutes but I go straight to rage-stroke level in heavy traffic. I have categorically ruled out all jobs that require commuting in heavy traffic if they don’t allow telecommuting a majority of the time. It’s limiting my job search but I know there’s no way I can tolerate that kind of daily commute long term.

    3. LAI*

      I recently moved and my commute went from 8 minutes on high-speed rail to 45 minutes in traffic. I was very nervous about this. The only thing that is making it tenable is that I was able to negotiate to work from home one day a week, and keep a flexible schedule (so I can come in a little later and leave work later after traffic has died down somewhat). I’ve started listening to a lot of books on tape, and I also got a Spotify Premium subscription so I can listen to the music I want in the car. It’s been ok so far but I’ve only been doing it for about 6 months. I’m not sure yet how long I’ll want to keep this up, especially if there are kids in the picture some day…

    4. Amber Rose*

      My morning commute is an hour to an hour and a half depending on traffic, and my trip home is usually around 45 minutes, but may be an hour or more if traffic sucks.

      I don’t really know that a difference of just ten minutes would change anything about how I feel about my trip. Half an hour, sure. But ten minutes is such a short amount of time.

      2. Betsy*

        I agree. That’s super small to me. But I have only lived in countries where commutes are typically long– an hour each way is completely normal to most people here.

    5. Overeducated*

      I’m looking at going from 25 minutes driving/35 minutes biking to a solid hour on public transit. The trip home with day care pickup will also go from 30 minutes driving/45 biking to something awful like an hour and a half with a walk, a train, a walk, a bus, and a walk. Not excited at all but sometimes you don’t have many options; I’m waiting for spouse’s job search to resolve so we can figure out where we want to be long term.

    6. CheeryO*

      I wouldn’t move over 20 minutes per day, but of course that’s up to you. Can you do something to make the driving more enjoyable – audiobooks or podcasts or something? I have to admit that I’d strongly prefer 35-40 minutes with good traffic over my current 15-20 with heavy stop-and-go traffic, but that’s me.

    7. clow*

      my commute is an hour each way (not a lot of traffic, i just live in the middle of nowhere). I do it because i love living where I live more than I hate the two extra hours it adds to my day. You may want to just see for a handful of months if the commute is ok.

    8. too much time in the car*

      Thank you all so much for these replies!! You’re making me feel less anxious about it. It’s not ideal, but these comments help me lean more towards “also not the end of the world.” I’ll try it for a few months and re-evaluate then!

    9. Goya de la Mancha*

      Definitely up to the person….I HATED my 35-40 min commute and am happily only living 3 miles from my office. A friend, LOVED his 45+ min commute because it gave him time to decompress before getting home and having to deal with the demands there. I personally wouldn’t move if you love our neighborhood that much, 10 minutes is not worth it.

    10. KayEss*

      I did a 45-60 minute driving commute for about five years. It wasn’t the end of the world, and I only found that it got really bad when I went through a period of serious, untreated depression, because it was a LOT of time to be alone in my own head without distraction. If you live in a place that gets a lot of snow or other driving-affecting weather, feel out what your colleague’s commute length is relative to yours and be prepared to proactively bring the issue of working from home or leaving early/arriving late in the case of bad weather with your manager if everyone else has short commutes.

      I’m currently looking at jobs that would give me a commute of 20-30 minutes drive followed by an hour on light rail/subway, until I can move.

    11. DDJ*

      I commute an hour each way. I like to listen to music, for the most part, or the radio/news, but lately I’ve been getting into audio books and it’s been a great change. If you have access to audio downloads from the library, I would highly recommend! Most of my friends like podcasts, I’ve just never really gotten super into them.

    13. Aussie academic*

      My commute is about an hour (50 minute drive + 10 minute walk, or 30 minute drive + 20 minute train + 10 minute walk, but I prefer to drive so I can work late even when the trains only run hourly, and not have to plan my leave time too far in advance). This assumes I leave home by 6:30am at the latest – any later and you can add 15-45 minutes to the commute time as the highway gets clogged; coming home is never as bad. It’s about 32kms to give some context.

      Honestly, it’s not too bad. I love where we live and living here meant we could buy more house for our money, and have a small mortgage. Sometimes when I talk to colleagues who live 20 minutes away from the office I feel a bit jealous, but then I remember how happy I am to have financial room to breathe. This goes a long way to being happy with my commute.

      Oh and on the practical side of things, I listen to my favourite music on the way to work, and on the way home I call a friend or family member and have a quick chat with them while they commute or prepare dinner or whatnot. I’m not great at keeping in touch so this has helped in that respect, and it helps me feel the time isn’t wasted.

    14. Book Lover*

      Mine is about that, with a bit of traffic. I like it – I listen to podcasts or music and relax. And I have a hybrid car, so feel slightly less guilty.

    15. Windchime*

      My commute is 45-50 minutes to drive about 28 miles. I have to leave at 5:15 AM in order for it to be that short, though. Leaving any later would put me at 60-90 minutes, minimum. I used to ride the train (over 90 minutes) and then the bus (60-70 minutes at least). I finally decided to shift my hours to earlier and drive; it’s made a huge difference in my peace of mind and my stress level. It’s more expensive, though, because now I have to pay $17/day to park.

      I’ve considered moving closer but rent for a tiny, shoebox-sized apartment would be more than I am paying for my single-family home. So for now, I’ll stay put and deal with the commute.

  138. amanda_cake*

    In one of the early comments on this post, someone posted about whether or not it was okay to use their work email address for job hunting purposes.

    I work at my undergraduate alma mater. I have an employee email and my student email. I have always used my student email on resumes. When it’s time to move on from this position, would it look bad if I used my student email on my resume? Will people assume it is my work email address? I could use my personal gmail, but would prefer to just keep that for personal and coupon purposes.

    1. Anita-ita*

      Yes, you should create a personal email address and start using that one when you apply to jobs.

    2. Ambpersand*

      Yeah, it would start to look weird. Unless you’re a student, it doesn’t really make sense to use a .edu email address. Plus your student email won’t always be valid (they usually expire after a certain time frame post graduation), and you wont have that problem with a personal email.

      1. amanda_cake*

        My university gives us our student emails for life and in the past we’ve been encouraged to use them for professional things (especially since we keep them for life). Guess it might be bad advice nearing three years after graduation.

        1. Anita-ita*

          Definitely bad advice! In my opinion it looks unprofessional. Mine is still active and I graduated 8 years ago, definitely don’t use it though and haven’t for professional things since before I graduated.

        2. iDoNotMakeTeapots*

          I have been in charge of hiring multiple roles, and a .edu email address never rubbed me the wrong way. What did rub me the wrong way was when people had ridiculously unprofessional email addresses listed? Like princessfairy@gmail.com or something of that nature. If your school email is your name & you have it for life, I don’t see it as an issue. However, my university also granted my email for life, so I am possibly biased in understanding that you can have a .edu address & not still be in school.

          1. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

            No lie, I had someone apply for a job with a ridiculously NSFW email address, realize his mistake and then reapply with his much more appropriate and professional email address. I showed my colleagues and we had a laugh about it. It was really really inappropriate.

        3. Reba*

          I don’t think it’s unprofessional so much as confusing. If I saw a .edu address I would assume you either are a current student or are currently employed at a university. (Or that you are really enthused about your alma mater in a way that is not problematic but that I’d find a bit weird.)

          My university is great but I personally wouldn’t want to closely associate my identity with it indefinitely.

          1. amanda_cake*

            I have never thought of a university address as associating it as a huge part of my identity. I have been involved in a lot of hiring and most of it has been of people using .edu addresses. I work at a small liberal arts schools and a lot of our hires within my department are people from other small liberal arts schools who keep their emails for life. My personal gmail is not inappropriate to use (it is my small town’s name and a number—I played sports there), so I might just switch to that.

            1. Reba*

              Totally possible that norms around this are changing since I graduated in 2008, since email for life is more common.

              And I certainly have my own hangups about this–but it’s right next to your name, at the top of most of your written communication! Probably lots of folks don’t notice this, but I would be concerned about making that association of “student” each time I emailed.

  139. o.b.*

    What are your SMART goals? I’m in a support role without real metrics related to anything like revenue or tickets; my goals are around training and increased workload/ownership of work, and I’m struggling to fit them into a SMART criteria.

    I already have really high standards of accuracy and timeliness (which thankfully my workload allows—obviously the more I have to do, the harder it is to do it all on time—definitely this isn’t the case for all positions!), so it would be a cop-out to focus on, like, “process 100% of llama requests on time” since I am already doing that.

    Anyway, I work best with examples—so what are yours?

    1. Eye of Sauron*

      Here are few that might work for you.

      1. Eliminate X Non Value work
      Value can really be defined as anything; process steps, time, emails, cost, physical resources (paper, etc.) It could be you, your department, or the organization
      2. Proactively identify a risk, mistake, or incident that would have a negative impact on the business- quantify results.
      This is the easiest goal in the world to accomplish and the hardest to identify for most people. Examples of this could be; Found a scheduling mistake and fixed before sending a trainer on site – $200 in travel avoided. Caught a mistake made be another department on an invoice, $200 dollars found that was not included.

      It’s hard to not think transactional for goals, but if you think that time is money then you can probably come up with some quantifiable goals.

      Also add in some professional development goals. Sometimes those are the easiest, since you either did them or not. “Attended seminars x, y, z. Completed required safety training, Cross trained with Y department on X process.

  140. Expectant Expatriot*

    Any hot tips for an American trying to get a job and employment-based immigration sponsorship to Denmark? My job isn’t usually on the positive list but works under the pay limit scheme.

    I’ve been trawling Work In Denmark and there’s lots of recruitment for people that do what I do, I’ve applied a few times but I’m told the competition for jobs posted through there is fierce.

    I actually used to do pharmaceutical research in the US and would like to go back to something like that again. I’ve been trying to figure out if there’s a good way to network with Danish pharma folks from overseas? I’ll be in Denmark this summer, too. I wonder if the field is as connections based there as it tends to be here.

  141. Ruby*

    Are there any Americans working in Kenya? Any thoughts on moving with no current job prospects or tips for job searching? I’m thinking of going with a partner who’s about to finish graduate studies and who has a job likely lined up (nothing is set in stone about this as thesis finish date is much later this year). I enjoy my job medium-well, truly enjoy the people I work with, and believe in our mission – I’m at a non-profit currently. It’s my first job out of college, and not at all related to my degree field. I’m not married to the idea of my degree field or staying in this current one. I just don’t feel utterly satisfied and want to consider making a Big Life Change while I’m young, but I don’t know if it’s even remotely practical employment-wise – throwing out all personal/family considerations here.

    1. nep*

      Do you look at ReliefWeb’s job listings? I regularly see Kenya jobs there. reliefwebDOTint/jobs
      If you’re on LinkedIn, maybe follow some companies or organisations you know have offices in Kenya — they’d probably post job openings on LI from time to time.

      1. Ruby*

        ReliefWeb looks like a great resource, thanks! Most of the companies I’m familiar with or have any sort of connection to don’t have any offices on the African continent at all, unfortunately. My degree is in a general field that’s applicable to all countries but is more of a Western nation type of niche, if that makes sense.

        1. nep*

          I see.
          You’ll see quite a wide range of things on ReliefWeb — keep watching it. The job listings update regularly throughout the day.
          Any thought of looking into something at the embassy? (In any case their website might have some useful resources.)
          Also, definitely worth finding expat classifieds websites.

          1. Ruby*

            I think you’ve actually managed to provide good resources for my field, despite my unbelievable vagueness in attempt to avoid identifying myself. I think I’m just feeling a bit overwhelmed by the idea of it all and couldn’t even think of anywhere to start. Much appreciated, nep!

  142. What's with today, today?*

    What is Six Sigma? I’m not in an industry that uses anything like this, and I’m curious.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Seems to be a quality management system for manufacturers. I get emails about it all the time, but I don’t think it’s as good as ISO 9001, which is an internationally recognized designation.

    2. Thlayli*

      It’s a project-based system of continuous improvement. It originated in manufacturing where the term 6sigma refers to the mathematical concept of 6 standard deviations between the average of a process and the specification limit, which correlates to only 3.4 defects per million opportunities. It was extremely successful at improving manufacturing outputs and was so successful that it started being applied to management methods as well. The mathematical term 6sigma doesn’t really make sense for theh management-y type stuff, but the name has stuck.

      Basically a 6-sigma project has defined stages and the key difference between it and other methods of project management is that you measure the outcome before and after you make a change – so you can see if you’ve actually improved anything and how much you have improved it by.

      There are loads of 6sigma tools for everything from brainstorming methods to process improvement. I have a 6 sigma green belt and another project management qualification and I like 6signa more than other project management systems because it focuses you on getting the job done rather than filling out useless paperwork.

  143. SkyePilot*

    To expense or not to expense? Three to four times a year, I travel one town over to meet with vendors. Round trip is probably fifty miles or a smidge less. Part of me wants to expense this mileage (these are infrequent trips, I submit other expenses monthly anyway, I am taking my personal car, etc) but part of me also feels that it is pretty petty to expense the $20. Any thoughts?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Totally legit to expense the mileage.

      I never bother to expense mileage, but that’s because I don’t have any other expenses and I’m too lazy to bother filling out the forms just for the mileage. I think of it as my little extra contribution to my employer (a nonprofit).

    2. MissCPA*

      I process payroll for a few clients and one employee submitted one half a mile for reimbursement. If it amounts to $20 even once, I’d expense it.

    4. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      It’s a legit expense if you drove your car for a work related reason. Do you also park your car in a garage when you drive for work travel? Again, a legit business expense.

    5. LAI*

      Similar question! Occasionally I have very small charges, under $20, come up for work, like buying coffee for a colleague during a business meeting at a cafe. I haven’t wanted to expense them because I have to email our finance person to figure out which account to use, and I have to email my boss to get official approval to submit with the request – it seems petty to bother them over such small amounts (especially my boss, who is high-up and very busy). But I did notice that I happened to have several charges like this this month so they start to add up…

      1. Bagpuss*

        Can you speak to finance to work out whether it would be practical / permissible to submit one claim, maybe once a month? Even if you have to assing a claim to a specific client account doing a batch of calims at the end of the month (or mid-month!) might be easier for you and finance, and if you were asking your boss to approve once a month, rather than several times, it would use less of her time.
        Depending on the amounts, you could also raise the issue and ask whether your boss can give you blanket approval for amounts of less than $x – so that (say) a claim of less than $10 (or whatever makes sense) can go direct to finance rather than via your boss.
        If your boss doesn’t have the authority to do that because of a company-wide policy then go ahead and submit the claims – if it bugs your boss she may raise the possibility of a change to the policy, with the higher-ups.

      2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        Where I work, if it’s a colleague (a person that works at the same company) then no, that would not be counted as a reimbursable business expense Unless you got prior approval. Now, if it was a client (someone from another company) it would be reimbursable.

    6. Thlayli*

      Do it. If you weren’t expensing anything else it might look petty but since you are doing the expense claim anyway just stick it in.

    7. ArtK*

      Expense it! It’s not trivial at all and it’s compensation that is due to you. Otherwise, you’re funding the company, not the other way around!

    8. London Calling*

      I deal with company expenses. You spent it on company business, it’s a legitimate claim, expense it. Trust me, no-one looks at the amount and thinks you are being petty – well, not anywhere I’ve worked, anyway.

  144. Kat Em*

    I’m in a ROWE right now.

    If that changed and they started demanding I put my butt in certain places at certain times, I’d find another job. The flexibility is what makes it worthwhile.

  145. Cancer Crush Anon*

    I’m late to the thread but wanted to provide a small update to those who saw my post last week. You can find it on last week’s thread under this same username.

    So on Monday my boss told me that she went to the head of HR. I was initially upset, but I understand why it had to happen. It protects everyone involved and my boss had to have some high level support backing her when she takes me off the project with the CEO.

    I met with head of HR and she basically told me that she would talk to the CEO. She said he would want to apologize just knowing him and I said no, please don’t. I don’t want him to. She said that would be fine.

    Boss and HR talked about a new role for me in the company, to keep my confidentiality since we all know grandboss won’t handle it well. Boss went to grandboss about giving me a new role since I’ve been here years and he basically told her he doesn’t think I deserve it because I don’t stay late and work overtime (ummm we’re told no overtime due to budget).

    So I met with a recruiter in my field this week and hopefully I’ll get something out of it. She seems to be a good recruiter. It’s hard to stay at work with this hanging over my head. I thought I heard the owner’s voice today in the lobby and I froze. I just want to GTFO.

    1. Cancer Crush Anon*

      Oh, and as an update to my dad: It looks like cancer hasn’t spread. There’s a spot that’s suspicious but they’ll find out during surgery and he has an MRI next week. It looks better than feared though, and he may not even have chemo/radiation. We’ll see!

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m glad you have Boss and HR backing you up even though it is such a frustrating situation.

      Good luck on the job search! And also excellent news on your dad.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      If they’re trying to put you in a new role (which it sounds like may not succeed), it better be equal to or better than your current role, or there’s no way for them to argue that it’s not retaliatory. I hope you get out of there soon; you do not need job stress on top of your other stress. I’m thinking of and pulling for you and your dad!

  146. Lumen*

    In our big meeting this morning (like 100 people in the room) a coworker put her large tea on the table next to my arm and didn’t let me know because it was just for a second. But in that second I happened to turn to gesture to someone and of course, this big cup of hot tea flies off the table, spilling all over the carpet and splashing another coworker.

    ABSOLUTE mortification. It doesn’t help that this sort of thing reminds me of being angrily reamed out and publicly shamed by my dad any time I spilled or dropped anything as a child.

    My coworkers have been gentle – no bully or teasing that doesn’t know when to quit. No one was angry and it didn’t derail the meeting or anything. And I of course apologized and helped clean up, and I told one coworker I owed her a drink and she waved it off very kindly, but I still feel terrible. I’m thinking about running to a coffee shop and getting a small gift card for both the coworker whose drink I ruined and the coworker who got splashed. But I’m not sure if this would make ‘a thing’ out of it and just make it awkward, because I may just be obsessing over it due to my childhood issues.

    For color: the coworker whose drink I knocked over is a VP of a different department, so several ranks above me but not supervisory to me at all, and the coworker I splashed is in another department but about my same rank.

    So… should I get them a little ‘so sorry’ gift or would that be making too big a deal of it?

    1. Eye of Sauron*

      Let it go. It’s a big thing in your mind but I can almost guarantee that nobody else is thinking about it.

    2. MissCPA*

      I think you are making too big a deal of it! As a child I was always made to sit on the edge of the rug in the living room because if we spilled we were in MAJOR trouble. So, I can understand your reaction, but I think purely it was accidental and not a big deal.

      1. Lumen*

        I really appreciate you commenting. I knew that the intensity of my reaction had something to do with how terribly I was treated for accidents that are really normal (especially for kids). Everyone drops or spills things sometimes, I just happened to be taught that I am a terrible person when I do it.

        Thank you for saying something. I’m going to take some breaths and shake this off.

    3. LadyKelvin*

      This sounds like a complete accident and neither the person’s whose tea you spilled nor the person who got splashed is upset. I’d not make a bigger deal out of it by buying them a gift. It seems inappropriate. I know if it were me who put the tea down and it got spilled, I would consider it my fault for not warning you that it was there.

      1. Lumen*

        You know, I started to think about that, too. If it had been my cup I would have felt like it was my fault for not warning someone it was there, and I’d feel even more awkward if the person who knocked it over bought me a gift over it. Yeesh. I definitely don’t want to do that.

        Thanks for chiming in, I am so glad I remembered today was Open Thread Day so I could get some perspective.

    4. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Perhaps another cup of tea for the VP (just bring it to her with a smile and say “I’m so sorry about knocking your tea over in the meeting” Laugh again and then leave) and for the co-worker, maybe a bagel or a donut. Again, smile/laugh it off and then return to your office/desk

      1. Lumen*

        You know, I may keep my eyes open for opportunities to do something nice or pick up the coffee tab for these two people in the future, but not make it an immediate “I’m sorry” gift.

        (Luckily I did find out that the tea wasn’t too hot so the person it splashed on didn’t feel a sting. She actually came by and laughed later about something I’d said long before the tea was spilled, so I think she and I are good.)

    5. league*

      That would be making too big a deal out of it. You made an innocent mistake that anyone could’ve made, and apologized for it and helped clean up. In the regular world – not the one your dad made you live in – no one else is even thinking of this, or blaming you still. You’re officially off the hook for this! (where “officially” = “league thinks so”)

      1. Lumen*

        “In the regular world – not the one your dad made you live in – no one else is even thinking of this, or blaming you still”

        Thank you for this. Just… thank you.

    6. nep*

      For sure, let it go. Normal that it would be magnified 1,000 times for you, compared to everyone else’s perspective.
      Sorry this happened to you. Best left in the past.

    7. Blue Eagle*

      If you spilled the drink of a person who makes less money than you (or is lower on the org chart), then yes – replace the drink. If the person makes more than you, no worries.

  147. 2017 was a rough year*

    Performance reviews are coming up and I’m nervous this year. For many (detailed below) reasons I’ve been much less productive this year than previous. I know my boss is a bit frustrated with specific productivity lapses even if he is overall understanding of the situation. I need to review my dialogue from last year so we can discuss what of my goals I met and what I failed to meet. And come up with new goals. I’m not worried about job security (well for the next 6 months at least) but I hate to think that I’m going to hit a “needs improvement” on some of the criteria.

    Backstory is just a couple weeks after last years performance reviews (so after they’d been signed off on) I was put on medical bed rest due to complications of my pregnancy. My boss knew about the pregnancy before the review, so some leeway was written into my goals due to my expected maternity leave, but I wasn’t expecting to be on bed rest for 6 weeks. Followed by 8 weeks of maternity leave. Then a month after I came back from maternity leave my father unexpectedly passed away and it fell to my sibling and myself to manage the funeral and all the issues with the estate (still working on that…) I took off only 4 days to plan and put on the funeral, which was probably too few. And I think I just felt overwhelmed after all that so my productivity continued to suffer through the fall.

    Now I have to figure out how to address all that in my dialogue without making excuses or seeming like I’m failing to take responsibility for my actions. I think I’m doing better now, especially since November, but that’s not a lot to show for what is expected of me.

    1. EB*

      Have you been doing well recently? I think framing all of this by saying that you’ve been on an upward trajectory is very reasonable considering what you’ve gone through. I’m a cancer survivor– I took two weeks off after surgery and made the decision to work part-time from home while I was in active treatment. My boss can be notoriously self-centered and my annual review following treatment was a little bizarre but I managed to come out of it okay because I had been consistently improving overall. I definitely still had dips where I was dealing with emotional fallout, but I feel like a good manager should be understanding and forgiving of that! Especially in a situation where you may still be processing the sudden loss of your father.

    2. Buu*

      Sorry you’ve had such a hard time, and don’t beat yourself up over it. I don’t think anyone could expect you to be at 100% following all that. Your bosses frustration is their failing..they say they understand but they are still showing annoyance.

      You’re already showing signs of improvement so make sure you emphasise that, then I’d suggest you contribute some further improvement points yourself. You’re not making excuses you’re stating facts that it’s been a hard year, it has impacted your work but you can prove you’ve already improved and you have a clear idea what you’re going to do next.

      A single performance review with a needs improvement is OK, it’s how you deal with it going forward.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Just say you know you missed time because of life stuff and going forward you anticipate things will settle down and you will be back on track.

      As far as making excuses, companies who do not understand that we have actual lives going on are not companies I am interested in working for. You weren’t asking for time off because you had a hang nail. These are major life events. A company that says having a baby or losing a parent is an “excuse” does not deserve the privilege of being in business.
      Chin up, walk tall. You have done nothing wrong here. Tell them you appreciate the time off for Life Stuff and you will work your absolute best because you are so happy to be back.

  148. Alice*

    I’m an individual contributor, not a manager, in an unit that is very non-hierarchical. My manager has encouraged me to delegate and to leverage the skills and specialties of colleagues. I want to do this, but I find it a little awkward.
    With support staff, I find it hard to impose a deadline. I don’t know what other tasks they’re trying to juggle, or who on the support staff team will be working on it (or what their schedule is, or who to follow up with).
    With colleagues at the same level, I feel awkward when they circle back having finished their part of a project. It’s uniformly great work, and my instinct is to say that enthusiastically and publicly. But I wonder if what I intend as praise-and-thanks might be taken as praise-and-feedback, as if I’m trying to manage them.
    Any advice? I love the extra time that this kind of delegation and collaboration has opened up.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      I’ve been the support staff person and I’ve been the person who delegates to the support staff. When you delegate to support staff, you owe it to them to impose a deadline. If your deadline is reasonable, they’ll be happy because they know how to prioritize it. If your deadline is unreasonable, they’d rather have the conversation now to set expectations. A project with no deadline is a huge pain unless people are literally sitting around bored.

      As for colleagues, it’s not a big deal unless you’re acting like that to them in other ways.

    2. ArtK*

      Go ahead and impose deadlines — assuming that they’re reasonable given your deadlines. Treat them as professionals and capable of managing their own schedules. If your deadline doesn’t work for them, it’s up to them to push back and negotiate. Or escalate to their boss so that their existing work can be prioritized against what you’re asking.

  149. AnotherLibrarian*

    I just found out I was rejected, without even a phone screen, from a job I was told to apply for by a mentor if mine.

    The email came from HR and not from her of the hiring committee. Do I follow up with her? If so, what do I say? I don’t want to be rude or demanding, but I am a bit hurt that I didn’t even get a personal note.

    Thoughts? How should I proceed?

    1. Lumen*

      Don’t follow up. They reviewed your information and even with the connection, they determined you weren’t what they were looking for. It sucks, especially since you had reason to think you’d at least get to talk to someone in the company, but pushing it will just make you (and possibly your mentor) look bad.

      At most, next time you and your mentor have coffee or chat, you can bring it up and ask if there was any feedback that can help you do better in other applications, or see if something happened that was totally out of your mentor’s control there. Either way, keep an open mind. I’m sure this just means that the job wasn’t a good fit and there are better opportunities for you out there.

      1. Millennial Lawyer*

        Your comment sums up the one I just left but even better! I think it’s general courtesy to drop the mentor a note to briefly thank for the recommendation and to let the mentor know the outcome of OP’s application, but otherwise 100% agree.

      2. Alice*

        I think this is good advice if the mentor isn’t very close to the hiring process for this job. But if the mentor works at this company AND is closely connected to this particular opening, I’d reach out to her now, not at your next chat. It could be “I’m closing the loop on your suggestion” or it could be “have you heard any feedback”?
        On the other hand, if the mentor just said “I saw this on a listserv and I think you should apply,” then everything Lumen said is right for sure.

        1. Lumen*

          Very good point. If the mentor is directly involved in hiring, I think it’s fair to inquire what happened. If not…

          1. AnotherLibrarian*

            Yes, my mentor is not just involved with the hiring, she’s head of the department. But she is not the manager of the job. So, that’s what makes this a little more complex. It if was just that she said, “hey, I saw this and thought of you” than I would not be confused as to the right way to proceed.

            1. Alice*

              I think you should come back to her with the update, asap. You’re not asking for reconsideration per se, you’re sharing information that she may or may not want to act on.
              Fingers crossed that it was some kind of systems problem and things work out!

    2. Millennial Lawyer*

      Is your mentor on the hiring committee? Even if she is, I don’t know if I would have expected a personal note from her.

      I would drop a note and let her know you just received notice you were not selected for the position, and thank her for her encouragement. Depending on your relationship with her and her connection to the company I’d ask her if she happens to know what they were looking for and what might improve your chances next time around since you’re still interested.

      I would definitely not a) ask for any reconsideration or b) voice discontent with the process, because so far it seems normal.

      You also never know why you were rejected even without a screener – it could be another person on the hiring committee’s nephew was a shoo in, or they decided to go in a different direction, or any number of things that aren’t personal.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        My mentor is both on the hiring committee and head of the department, though not the supervisor for this particular job.

    3. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I would definitely let my mentor know that I was rejected from the job he/she told you to apply for. I would then (nicely) ask if they had any idea why.

    4. CM*

      I would email the mentor and say “Just wanted to let you know that I applied for the job you recommended, but unfortunately I just got an email saying I was rejected. Thanks for the suggestion, and please let me know if you hear of anything else in the future!”

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        ^this! It surfaces the rejection, but keeps it couched in terms of “thanks for thinking of me, please keep thinking of me in the future”. It doesn’t demand an explanation or anything. If mentor wants to follow up with the rest of the committee this should be enough to trigger it.

        You could also add something like, “If you’d be willing to give me feedback on my candidacy, I’d love to have coffee sometime to talk it over. I was excited about the position and I’d like to be a stronger candidate the next time a similar role is available.”

  150. SophieChotek*

    Do you feel guilty or feel like you should work “extra” when you just have a not-very-productive day?
    Do I just need to accept some days are just like that?
    (I am not talking every week, I mean like once a month…maybe 2x a month…sometimes…not always, though…)
    I might feel different about it if I didn’t work-from-home, but because I know it’s a perk, I maybe feel guiltier (than I would, if I sat and stared blankly at a screen in the office all day)?

    I guess I am asking – not feel too guilty when it happens every once in a while…try to work extra?

    1. Millennial Lawyer*

      I think it depends – for me I end up *have* to work extra when I don’t have productive days because I have deadlines and it’ll catch up to me. But if you’re in a position where you don’t really have a deadline, and having a non productive day doesn’t have an adverse effect on your work or others’ work, it’s just a general feeling of unproductiveness, then I wouldn’t worry too much about it! We’re not all machines. I’d only feel guilty and need to work more if it’s hampering the quality of the work you do.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thanks. I often don’t have deadlines – or they are far enough out that 1 day isn’t going to make me miss my deadline. When I have a 24 hour project turn-around then I am usually “in the game” and make it, and on those days will have to work “extra” to get the work in on time

        …I think my “general feeling of unproductiveness” tends to come when I am in the beginning or middle of a weeks-long/months-long project, or just the routine stuff that never really ends.

        Thanks. Okay I don’t feel so guilty now…=)

    2. Lumen*

      Sometimes there’s less to do. Sometimes our heads just aren’t in the game. I assure you, everyone has not-that-productive days. Let it be, catch up the next day when you’ve recharged a bit, and don’t worry about it. The fact that you work from home is just messing with your head.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I usually just make work for myself. How can I do X more efficiently? Can I write more or better documentation on Y? All done with even all that? Maybe I can learn a new skill that’s not directly related to what I do but still helps with my job tangentially.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It took me years to realize that everyone has ups and downs in productivity levels. High producers even on a bad day will still produce more than average producers. Usually average producers just dip down to the low end of their range of productivity, but still not that bad. Bad workers are just bad workers, period.
      I have watched it in myself also. Hey, by Thursday I am tired! I learned to set my work up so that I was doing the easier stuff when I reach the parts of the day/week when I was usually tired. And I learned things to make the difficult tasks easier and quicker.

      I will work extra sometimes, under certain situations but usually not. For good bosses, if a person’s work averages out to be very productive most days then it’s really not a big concern. It’s the people who have poor productivity all the time or the people who yo-yo up and down that are a concern.

  151. RidiculousRaise*

    Hey y’all! So I wrote a few weeks back about how a peer of mine in my organization (different boss) got a raise that nearly doubled his salary and when my boss found out she went to HR to try to see if I could get some kind of salary adjustment. Well, I have a development and I guess I’m just coming here to make sure I’m not insane.

    We’re in the process of hiring another designer now in the middle of all this to work alongside me. And my boss just told me that I will get a salary adjustment, but it will be based on the salary of the new designer. I’m pretty insulted by this. I understand I work for a public university and funds aren’t unlimited. It just seems like literally basing my pay on another person is the least appropriate way to handle this situation. Especially when I look at the numbers.

    The range for this position is 48-60k. The 48 is not a coincidence– I make 47 now. But this means that if they hire someone at 48 my “salary adjustment” might amount to nothing more than a small COL increase. If they decide on someone more experienced (but to be clear, LESS experienced than me), I stand to make up to 15k more than I am currently making.

    …. I mean, I know what this means for me and where I stand here and how I’m valued and I’m acting accordingly. Just… UGH.

    1. Lumen*

      I don’t think you’re crazy. Your salary shouldn’t be based on what a brand-new hire is making, especially when you have seniority. Start looking for a new job, because this one apparently doesn’t know how to pay people.

    3. BlueWolf*

      Is it possible they didn’t mean that your salary would equal the new designer’s salary, but that they wanted to see what they would pay the new person in order to make sure you get a higher salary than them? For example, if they bumped you up to say, $55k now, and then hired the new person at $60k that wouldn’t be fair to you. But if they hire a new person at $60k, they may decide they should pay you more than that.

      Obviously you have more information than I do, so if they told you explicitly that it would be the same as the new person, you can disregard my comment.

    4. Irene Adler*

      You are not insane.

      If I were you: I’d want to know why they are basing your pay on the salary of the new designer. Who decided that was the criteria? Are there other employees receiving a salary based on another employee’s salary? If not, why is your salary being limited in this manner?

    5. Millennial Lawyer*

      Did you point out what the other employee makes and that you’re in the same position, just a different boss? I’m curious to know the demographic dynamics too because they could be unwittingly having a discriminatory affect. Bad news for a public university.

  152. AAM Newbie*

    I had commented in an open thread around Christmas time….I was working for a company whose owners belong to a religion that is generally known as a cult (I am in Clearwater, FL….). They were demanding $20 from each employee to buy a gift for the CEO (not what you can afford, but an unyielding $20 per). General consensus was that I should run, fast and far.

    Well, due to the holidays, I was unable to run at that time and before I could gather my feet under me, I was laid off. Very hinky situation…..there were two of us in Customer Service and my team mate had given notice three days before. Then they laid me off so they have no one in customer service who knows what is going on, not to mention all the irons I had in the fire at the time. Soooooo many customers were left hanging. :)

    I am now back in the job market and getting depressed. I don’t know if it’s this area or what, but I am finding quite a few companies are now subscribing to L. Ron Hubbard’s Administrative and Guiding Principles (or whatever it’s called). Is this some new thing, where even non-religion that is not a cult companies are using? Or am I just applying to companies that are owned by folks who belong to the religion that is really a cult?

    (On a side note, I just sent them an email demanding to be paid for the time I spent sitting in the parking lot waiting for the office to be unlocked as well as paid out for my accrued PTO. Sent them DOL and FLSA links backing up my request. I also reported them to the FTC for their backorder policy which is….no policy. If someone ordered something that wasn’t in stock, they would print the UPS label so it would look like it shipped out but that label would be set aside or destroyed. So the company collected the money and never sent the product, nor did they ever reach out to the customer. They would just wait for the customer to reach out. I took a call in November from someone who ordered in March and still hadn’t received their order. The FTC was very interested.)

    1. Rebecca*

      Wow, this sounds so much like something that happened to a good friend of my family. He liked to order a produce product from a company in Florida, and did so for many years…until this year. He placed orders for produce as gifts back in November, still no produce in December despite promises the items were shipped, fast forward to January, oh, we missed placing the orders. Then orders were shipped to the wrong zip code…long story short, he got in touch with his credit card company and got everything canceled.

      And yes, he was not notified of any delays, he asked the recipients, hey, did ya’ll receive your produce from X company, and not one recipient got anything. Hmmmm…..

      1. AAM Newbie*

        We didn’t handle produce, LOL, so I can say it’s not the same company. But I’m stuck wondering if this is some new way of making money. Or if this is some “new trick” the religion that’s really a cult has latched on to.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I would say that you’re going to be far more likely to run into companies with those guidelines in the Clearwater area. Definitely vet any potential employers very very carefully.

      And if you want more insight into the cult, I highly recommend The Underground Bunker, a blog by Tony Ortega.

      1. AAM Newbie*

        I will definitely check out that blog, thanks!!!!
        I know a lot of it is geographical, but I’ve lived here 20 years and this is the first time I’ve seen anything like this! Got me kind of freaked out. The last thing I want to do is go to work for a company that is run by those folks!!!!!

  153. Not So Super-visor*

    What is the best way to deal with a DR who complains that you are treating them like a child but is legitimately acting childish? We work in a large corporate office with a lot rules — they’re not my rules and some of them seem silly, but I’m still charged with making sure that my department adheres. Examples: casual wardrobe (jeans) but no tennis shoes, no hot or messy food at your desk (only in the breakroom), all papers/garbage cleaned up from your desk before you leave, etc. In addition, since our department covers the phones, attendance and following a set break/lunch schedule are hugely important. It’s a pretty rigid environment and not everyone takes to it well. I have a DR who has been here for 10 years but started having major attendance issues within the last year. When she was given a write-up on it, she started pushing boundaries in other ways: wearing bright orange tennis shoes to work, heating up a box of pizza rolls or microwave popcorn in the break room and bringing it back to her desk, leaving her desk littered with emptied soda bottles at the end of her shift (despite an email about a large client coming into the office the next day with extra reminders from the president to tidy up). When we had the discussion over the write-up about her attendance, she went to HR to complain and stated that she was being treated like a child. When I had to come down on her about the hot food at her desk, she filed an ethics complaint against me. She stops whichever action after being confronted about it but pops up with something else a few days later. It’s like a ridiculous game of whack-a-mole. After her ethics complain, HR sided with me but suggested I document all actions. I feel like I now have to document every interaction with her as she has turned to eye-rolling and sarcasm. It’s pretty draining. I’m pretty much at BEC levels with her while I have a good relationship with everyone else in the department.

      1. Samata*

        Ditto. Sounds like she is fishing for a dismissal if you ask me. If she has been there 10 years and the rules have always been the same it’s not an adjustment issue.

        I mean, she is blatantly disregarding set rules and falsely filing complaints when you enforce said rules…that she followed for 9 years. There has to be more recourse to her actions that just letting it go on and talking with no action. How much longer do you think you’ll have to document before something actually gets done?

        I realize this isn’t helpful but I am flummoxed.

      2. ArtK*

        This is rising to the level of insubordination. Not-so-super seems to have made the expectations clear and the DR is acting out. I agree that documenting everything is critical at this stage. Both to head off the spurious accusations of ethics/discrimination/nose-picking, but also to make a case for firing. If it’s happening every few days, it shouldn’t take long. (I know, I know… companies are bad at firing people who deserve it.)

    2. Havarti*

      Out of curiosity, have the rules been in place for the 10 years she’s worked there? Is she trying to get herself fired? I mean, if I disliked the rules, I would leave. What’s the quality of her work like?

      1. Not So Super-visor*

        It’s tricky. Most of the rules (food, cleanliness, etc) were in place but not well adhered to until we moved into a brand new, shiny building 3 years ago (prior to my becoming a supervisor). When we moved into this building, they were enforced with hyper-vigilence (think VPs roaming departments to ensure adherence). The dress code was actually relaxed when we moved in — before we were business casual with no jeans ever (and definitely no tennis shoes).

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It needs to be impressed on her that no one is singling her out these are the rules that everyone must follow. I used to say it does not matter if we agree or disagree we still have to abide by the rules.

      How much longer is this allowed to go on? Why are you documenting when she is just plain not following the rules? Like any five year old she is counting on you to be too tired to deal. So deal, yeah, it’s a PITA but your crew needs you to be a boss. Don’t forget they are watching this crap and saying wth. HR wants paper give them lots and lots of paper. It can’t be hard to find things to write about.
      I’d find out if I could put her on a PIP. And, yeah, of course she reported you, she sees you as weak so she will continue to escalate. (Sorry that was blunt but that is what is going on. She is just going to keep pushing your buttons until you get her to see the light or the exit door.) Get with your boss and try to get an idea of time frame as to how long she should have to shape up.
      There are too many people out there who will try to comply with all the rules whether they like the rules or not. I know as a supervisor I had a hard time enforcing some rules because the rules were stupid. But it was my job as long as I stayed at the company. In some cases I was able to make a solid case behind closed doors for abandoning some of the stupider rules. The group never knew I did that, though.

      If she says she feels that she is being treated like a child you can:
      a) Tell her that the rules apply to everyone. Everyone else is following the rules.
      b)Tell her whether she agrees or disagrees with the rules is moot, when in Rome do as the Romans do. Welcome to Rome.
      c) Tell her that these rules exist for reasons, we may not know the reasons but there is a rationale behind the rule.
      d) Or remind her that anywhere she works will have rules. The chances are pretty good that people will be annoyed by at least a few of the rules.

  154. office Q*

    what’s one question you want to ask a coworker but you can’t?

    i have a coworker (older, male) who has a grown daughter. in over two years at working at his company, he has not ONCE mentioned even remotely related to the daughter’s mother. obviously you can’t ask about it… BUT I’M SO CURIOUS. is she dead? did they have a horrible divorce? did she walk out? is it painful? he’s dated other women recently….

    I JUST DON’T KNOW. I actually have this fear i will get too drunk at a work event and ask him. luckily the company party has passed this year.

    2. EB*

      OHH I know mine. I’ve been at my current job for five years and my boss will occasionally mention her “ex-fiancee” but it’s always in a context where I would never dare ask for the full story. For some reason, I find that so much more mysterious than ex-husband/ex-boyfriend. Like, you were serious enough to almost get married but didn’t– what happened? Why is she still talking about it, when, as best I can tell, this breakup happened 10+ years ago?

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I want to ask the lead DBA on my team if he doesn’t like me, and why. Or is he just curmudgeonly with everyone?

      He doesn’t treat me rudely or in any manner that is a problem, he’s just…curmudgeonly. lol He has been friends with my boss for many years and this is their second time working together, and they are the same age/life situations, and the rest of my team is young (we’re in our early 30s, some have kids, some are about to have kids). He will joke around with us sometimes but I often feel like I’m really annoying to him. I think maybe he’s just a very quiet/private person and all us young’uns are just a little too weird.

    4. KayEss*

      One of my former coworkers had a car with a license plate reading “OVER YOU.” Others in the office (I was a newcomer) conveyed that it was related to his divorce. I kind of wanted to know but also was aware that I probably didn’t, and it would never be appropriate to ask.

      1. KayEss*

        Remembered another one: I worked with a young woman who went to a fairly prestigious art school and graduated with a degree in animation, and I always wanted to ask her how she wound up doing social media management. But I went to art school with big dreams, myself… so I knew that kind of question would likely be unwelcome and possibly extremely painful for her.

    5. beanie beans*

      Not a question, just a statement I’m dying to make to a coworker. “It’s for all intents-and-purposes, not intensive purposes!”

      1. miyeritari*

        There’s a person in my office – superior to me, but not my boss – who misuses semicolons. Every time I see it, I got ADHJF;KAJAGASNGAHDG in my head.

    6. Betsy*

      I think this could be fairly common? As someone’s grown daughter, my parents split up when I was five, which is almost thirty years ago now. I can’t imagine my dad would ever need to mention my mother to any of his coworkers.

      1. Office Q*

        I’m not saying the circumstances are interesting, but it’s the fact that I don’t know what the circumstances are that makes me curious!

    7. Lissa*

      Yes, I had a coworker for awhile who used a name that can commonly be for men and women, let’s say, Jamie. My coworker presented very femininely. Once or twice I received an email from her that had an email “signature” that included an almost-always male name, say, Evan. But the name on the email header was Jamie. Once when we were out and about an acquaintance came up and started chatting to her, calling her Evan. She seemed totally fine with this and introduced me etc. I also once looked to see if she was on Facebook and found no profile for Jamie, but one for Evan. I always was curious if she sent the email to me by accident and I should ignore it, or if she maybe wanted me to ask and would prefer people call her Evan! I kept calling her Jamie because the email could’ve been a mistake.

  155. V*

    I’m currently in the interview process with two different companies and o was curious- on average, how many interviews do you expect to do until you’re either offered the job or rejected?

    The first place I had a fifteen minute phone interview followed by a two hour in person interview where I met the HR rep, hiring manager for the department, and the VP of the company. They said they’ll have a decision early next week.

    The second company I had a phone interview that lasted about half an hour. Then I went for an in person interview with the VP that lasted about an hour. Then I went in today for an interview with the president that lasted forty five minutes. This was all within a week. They said they’d contact me next week about scheduling a third in person interview.

    An I wrong in thinking the second company is asking a lot? I understand wanting to make a good hiring decision, but this just seems excessive.

    So many interviews did you go through before being made an offer?

    1. Curious Cat*

      Nope for my current job I had a pre-screening call, an actual HR phone interview and two in-person interviews (first one with a future team member and supervisor, second one with the director of the program + another team member).

      1. Curious Cat*

        Ignore the ‘nope’ at the beginning of my sentence…I had been typing one thing and then another and forgot to delete it :)

    2. Environmental Gone Public Health*

      First job was just a phone interview, took about 45 minutes. Second job, I had just left First Job and had called up the office for Second Job asking if they needed any citizen volunteers (lakes research, related to First Job) because I didn’t see any openings. They made an opening for me. Second And A Half Job I interviewed over the phone (I think it was about 20 minutes), then a quick in-person interview. Third Job, one in-person interview that went realllllllly long – I think it was usually a 2-interview process, but the right people were in the office and available, so they combined it. Fourth Job was a transfer from Third Job. Fifth Job, two interviews only because at the first interview one interviewer didn’t show up. All these jobs have been government/university in a STEM field.

      I don’t think that the number of interviews for Company 2 is too much, but I’d be slightly peeved at the timeline, since I am working full time and it’d be really hard to justify to my boss with all that time off in less than two weeks.

    3. Thlayli*

      One for my current job. I think I’ve only ever had 2 max. A few times I’ve had more than 2 interviews but all on the same day. But it seems to vary massively. A friend of mine interviewed for some high up jobs in IT a few months ago and she had 7 interviews with one crowd! 7 different days. I can’t even imagine wanting a job enough to put up with that crap.

  156. best be anon*

    File under “good problems to have, if it’s even a real problem”…

    I’m a couple of months into a new job that I really like so far. The thing is, my new manager seems to be very impressed by what I think of as very minor/trivial accomplishments, like organizing a small internal event or basic proofreading. I get what feels like disproportionate amounts of praise for these things, which is nice but somewhat uncomfortable. It’s the first time this department has hired someone in my type of role before, most of this manager’s reports are early career staff, and my previous job was not great at recognizing individual strengths and contributions, so maybe it’s just that, but I feel a bit uneasy that maybe this might cause problems in the long term? Like maybe my real, big, truly impressive accomplishments in this role won’t be appreciated proportionately by comparison, or that when I move on this manager might give a reference that doesn’t focus on the right things?

    I’m also never sure how to respond in the moment. I don’t want to go the “aww shucks it was nothing” route, but I don’t want to make it look like I, too, think it’s a huge deal to fix a few typos. So far I’ve said things like “thanks, it was an interesting document to work on” but maybe there’s a better strategy?

    Hopefully this will all be resolved when I get up to speed and can start making some really big contributions, but any advice for the short term would be appreciated!

    1. Mediamaven*

      She likely had a major deficit in that role before and you’ve taken a lot of work off her plate! Don’t under estimate how certain things are a real struggle for a manager and make their lives easier when a pro does it. I hired someone this year who has no idea, even when I tell her, how much she has made things so much better for me. You are doing a great job!

      1. iDoNotMakeTeapots*

        I agree- I have been in this situation before. We went through quite a few employees in a seemingly “easy” position, and finally they put me in charge of hiring and we haven’t had to rehire. To this day, after experiencing all of those people who did easy tasks horribly wrong, I find myself praising them for ridiculous things like taking notes in meetings. (Because honestly, we never had an employee do the job well before and I am just so grateful)

        Sounds like this supervisor is really grateful to have you, and when you do something really great I’m sure they will be proportionally grateful.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I agree. I had a similar situation. I have a great boss but she got burned badly. Instead of talking all the time about how she got burned she would mention all the things I did well. I mean all of them. “You turned the computer on…” uh. that is really not an accomplishment. But from where she had been this was a big deal.

        It will wear off in time, most of it. You two will move on to do other things together and she will probably pass interesting work your way because she knows you are up for the challenge. Time is on your side here. Meanwhile, you can say thanks if you want. Or you can just say, “I’m just doing the job you are paying me for.” I have even gone with, “I am here to help. That is what I am here for.”
        Let her have the time to process whatever it is she needs to process. She may never totally give up complimenting you on basics, but it won’t be as much as she does now. If you feel like it you can say, “Thanks, I enjoy working for you/ working here.” If that is true.

    2. Reba*

      Congrats on your new job! I think give it more time–your manager wants to praise you, and you haven’t done really big projects yet (right?). You don’t have that much information about your manager to weigh their excessive praising style against. Your response acknowledging the praise is great.

      Do watch out for a pattern as the weeks go by, though. I’m a woman, so I would be sensitive to whether I was getting praise/recognition for doing stereotypically feminized work and not for other tasks. There was a post in a recent open thread from a woman who worked among engineers for YEARS as a peer, and learned upon leaving that they had all thought she was a secretary.

    3. Thlayli*

      Just say thanks. I have that a bit in my current job. I get lots of praise for doing some stuff that I think is just so obvious and simple. But I know there are other aspects of the job I’m still learning. I’m not about to turn down any praise that’s legitimate.

  157. Anonforthis...*

    What are you supposed to do when all you want to do is quit your job but you can’t b/c life/bills/etc?

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      1) Get away for a weekend. Being in different surroundings, where you can’t catch up on chores because the chores are physically 30 miles away, can really help with perspective.

      2) Plan. Do you have kids? Other dependents? A partner? You may owe reliability and consistency to them, and that should be acknowledged. Other obligations, like a mortgage? What would be needed to leave your current job–another job at the same salary/benefits/commute, or can you be flexible on one or more of those? Figure out your constraints and options. Plan. We have all encountered the person who claims to want change but dismisses every small obvious rational baby step as a mountain no one could possibly surmount–don’t become them.

    2. Joielle*

      Maybe focus on your life outside of work? When I’m frustrated at work, I ramp up my efforts with my hobbies and it helps remind me that there’s more to life than work. Plus it forces me to connect with friends (my main hobby is pretty social, which helps).

    3. Moi moi*

      Find one thing that you CAN improve about your job, and work to improve it. For everything that you can’t change, adopt an internal IDGAF attitude (but still perform adequately for outward appearances). ;-)

      1. Det. Charles Boyle*

        Save, save, save, so you can quit and take a lower-paying job that fits your needs better.

  158. AnonAndOn*

    Weekly unemployment thread: Feel free to talk about how your job search is going, vent, ask for advice, or commiserate. How are things going for you?

    Me: Applied to a few jobs this week. Still looking.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      Solidarity! I have basically the same update as you. Applied to some new places, either haven’t heard on any previous applications or been rejected outright, still looking. I’m considering taking some continuing ed courses in some things I think might be useful. And I’ve drafted a short-term contract proposal that I’m waiting to hear feedback on before it’s formally submitted.

      It’s really hard to plan for anything – change of career, taking classes, family vacations – since I don’t know when or if I’ll need to be available for stuff.

      Personal vent – I applied to two companies that I have friends at, and emailed to let them know I applied but NOT to ask for anything, and no responses at all. I wasn’t looking for anything in return except “hey good luck.” It’s a bummer if I think about it too much.

    2. beanie beans*

      Coming off of a break since January from looking for about a year. After a couple of promising positions that fell through, I’m finding it hard to get motivated to start over with applications.

    3. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      About two weeks ago I applied for a position at XYZ company. A few days after I submitted my application, I get a voice message on my phone asking me to call back to discuss the position (I was all excited). I called and got the person’s voice mail so I left a message that I was calling back to discuss the position. A few hours after I left the message, I get a “canned” email stating “We have reviewed your resume and after careful consideration, we have decided not to proceed with your application”. Whaaaaaaat??!! So I called the person back (got the voice mail again) and asked them what was going on. I’ve not heard back from anyone. Grrrrrr! I hate job hunting.

    4. nep*

      I’ve had a couple of these moments recently: ‘That’s it — I give up. I can’t look at any more job listings…can’t work on another resume and cover letter. That’s it.”
      And of course, I’m searching and working on my resume…Have to keep at it — no choice but to keep at it.
      Good luck, all.

      1. nep*

        (Confidence is absolutely at nil right now, which doesn’t help.)
        (The copy editor in me has to note that I messed up the quotation marks above.)

      2. Truffles*

        I’ve definitely had moments like that. Job searching is quite the roller coaster. Good luck to you!

    5. KayEss*

      Just finished a phone interview with a place that, thanks largely to my reading of AAM, I was able to determine I Do Not Want To Work. I’ll probably withdraw my application if they follow up wanting to continue with the process, but I feel like it may have been clear from the questions I asked (thanks again, AAM!) that it wouldn’t be a good cultural fit. This will be the second position I applied to that I’ll have withdrawn from in less than a month of searching, which is both a little scary and kind of empowering! I feel good about having a decent grasp of what I want from a job and workplace and knowledgeably avoiding places that will likely make me unhappy, but at the same time… the clock is ticking.

      I do have another place on the table that I’ve had two interviews with and am waiting for further follow-up, and if they wind up making me a good offer I’ll probably take it. It’s certainly not a position I’m “dream job”-levels of excited about, but seems “yeah I can see staying here at least a couple years”-decent?

      1. nep*

        Sounds promising.
        Good for you for knowing what works and what doesn’t, and acting on that.
        All the best. Keep us posted.

    6. Truffles*

      Still looking. Had a couple interviews in the past week and currently working on a take-home test. Feeling cautiously optimistic, but don’t want to get my hopes up too high. Good luck to all!

  159. Dweali*

    I’m going to be asking my company’s HR for a raise in April and I was surprised that people were saying that having a list of why you deserve one isn’t something that should be expected of you? Was it just the level of detail that person was asking for or is that just in general?

    I had planned on using my review and the reasons why I gave myself those marks (which my manager ended up agreeing with), the fact that my job duties have drastically increased by about 4x what I originally was hired for, and if need be, the newer hires are being hired in at about $1 less than what I make (although I don’t want to bring up other people’s pay if I can avoid it).

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      All of those are good things to use when you argue for a raise. I’d even go so far as to suggest you try to figure out if the deciding person likes charts, or text, blunt numbers or storyline arguments.

      People objected to the idea that raises should only happen to people who ask for them. And that the asker should know how their compensation compared to everyone else’s and adjust their ask accordingly, something about which the manager usually has data and employees don’t.

      Basically–if you’re initiating the conversation, you should have a supporting argument based on the value you have added to the organization since your last raise. (And not, as in one old letter, that you have plans to spend more money.) The argument came down to the issue of whence raises originate, or should–value added vs gumption. If you know you’re somewhere that requires gumption, then you need to work with that.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      You do want to have to talking points – what you’ve achieved (your reviews), what the market rate is for people in your position, etc. You do need to support your request. The issue with the letter was that she wanted people to essentially write a paper or presentation with all this information and give it to her, their manager, who should already have a good grasp of their achievements. What should have been a conversation between manager and employee became some kind of hoop to jump through, just for the sake of doing it the way the manager perceived as correct. And if they didn’t perform “raise request” correctly, she wouldn’t advocate for their raise.

    3. Dweali*

      Awesome, thanks for reassuring me I’m on the right path as far as what I should have to make a stronger case ☺

      Hopefully by the time April rolls around I’ll know how I want to word the email (no onsite HR for me)

  160. Lucas*

    This isn’t my problem, but my friend’s. I’m hoping someone with some tax expertise might be able to weigh in.

    Backstory: My friend (Ariel) works as a part-time nanny for several families. It’s all very informal, and she’s paid in cash. Last year, in early April, one of her families was told by their CPA that they should count Ariel as a contractor and then they could deduct childcare expenses. These people had not given her a 1099, and never mentioned Ariel being a contractor before they spoke to this CPA. Ariel did not put any money away from taxes, since she only nannies to pay the bills while caring for an ailing relative. Ariel spoke to a tax attorney, who agreed that this is illegal misclassification. By IRS standards, Ariel would be considered a household employee, not a contractor (doesn’t make her own hours, works at their residence, doesn’t buy her own supplies, etc.). The family finally agreed to pay half the taxes Ariel owed, since that still made the deduction worthwhile. Ariel declined to work for them after this.

    Cut to this year: the family sent Ariel a 1099 for the few months she worked last year. We still believe it’s illegal misclassification. BUT the real question is this: She made less than $5,000, which I believe is the minimum requirement for filing taxes for regular employment for a single filer. She wants to know if she has to file since contractors have different tax rules.

    I don’t think she should file, both because she earned so little and because she’s misclassified in the first place. Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Primary advice: I would be concerned about the payment of SS/medicare, and whether the 1099 triggered this as an expectation, and would at a minimum pick up an EZ form and go through it. If she earned less than $12,000 that the IRS knows about, she should be okay. The minimum is designed to let people not have to file taxes for every scattered $20 for driveway shoveling. I know once my teen was working for a place that took out taxes she started having to file the EZ. But she only counted the summer techie income, not the babysitting for cash or shoveling for riding time from elsewhere in the year.)

      Anecdotally, my mil jumped through hoops to make sure her housekeeper got all the SS/medicare stuff properly paid, which was really important when she developed health problems in her 50s. Is Ariel getting food and housing from the relative and babysitting for a little cash while well under the minimum income to owe income tax? And likely for a year or two, not decades? Or is she working but all her income is under the counter? That last could screw her over down the road, because you only qualify for, say, SS disability if you’ve paid into the system. I’m annoyed at the family and CPA not thinking through anything beyond “hey if you call her contractor then you can save money, no need to check the legal definitions.”

      1. Lucas*

        Ariel is living with her ailing relative, so most of her income goes to her car payment and smaller bills not covered by her relative. All her income is coming from these cash arrangements, but it’s only for a few years. She’s previously worked full time, and hopes to get back to full-time work eventually.

        I’m very angry at this relatively wealthy family taking advantage of my friend, and I’m worried about giving Ariel bad advice just because I’m angry.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          Given that Ariel is earning income and not paying taxes, I don’t think you nor she have any standing to be angry. I think her situation is beyond the help of anonymous internet commenters; she needs a professional at this point.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            You can earn income and not owe taxes on it. $80 to Friday’s babysitter, $50 to the kid who shoveled your driveway, $100 to the high schooler tutoring your middle schooler, $40 to the person who looked after your cats on vacation, and a $15 Starbucks card to the friend who consulted on your drapery choices–you don’t get to classify those people as contractors so you can deduct that money.

            I agree that she probably needs a professional, but not that it’s clear she should be paying taxes, much less as a 1099 contractor.

            1. Nacho*

              All of those people still owe taxes on that money (except maybe the friend, not super clear on how giftcards work tax-wise). It’s just that if they make less than a certain amount, their tax rate is 0. If Friday’s babysitter also had a part time job at Burger King that made her $10,000 a year, then legally she has to report that $80 to the IRS. She won’t, and the IRS probably won’t find out about it, but she’s still breaking the law by not doing so.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          It might be worth a visit to a basic tax professional. Google suggests this can be free or $60. And it might get her the money back, if the family did it despite her not meeting the definition of a contractor. Or reassurance that it’s a one-off and she is paid up, not accumulating late fees on $5 somewhere. She should first align all ducks to be as simple and straightforward a case as possible. e.g.
          • I didn’t work full-time this year because I am caring for an ailing relative and moved in with them. I do some babysitting for money to cover my car.
          • I babysat for one family who midway through the year tried to classify me as a contractor for their tax purposes, even though I was actually household help. I earned less than $5000.
          • When they did it, I wound up owing these taxes, which I paid. *copy of paperwork*
          • I stopped working for them. Do I need to file? Do I owe anything else?

          As often seen on the blog, there can be a lot of space between my and your advice “That llama is outrageous, I think X should be true and fair” and “I am a llama wrangler; you cannot X.” So if you know someone who works as a contractor or household help, they might shed real light.

          When my kids were young, the fact that I could deduct daycare and summer camps who had a tax ID number and pay through the dependent care pre-tax amount, but that didn’t apply to my teenage Saturday night babysitter, was just a cost/benefit of the different options. I didn’t get to claim my babysitters were freelance contract workers by sheer force of my will.

    2. Anon for today*

      if she was paid more than $600, then legally she has to be sent a 1099. That said, she is most definately misclassified. Houehold helpers/nannies are almost ALWAYS considered employees unless they work for an agency.

    3. MissCPA*

      If she earned less than the filing requirement (10,400 is single) then she doesn’t need to file at all, regardless of receiving the 1099. If she earned more than that, she needs to file, but can file a form 8919 to alert the IRS that they classified her as a contractor and not an employee. Hope this helps! I do taxes for a living for a large public accounting firm

    4. VITA Volunteer*

      I think she needs to file. Yes, she earns under the $10,400 gross income threshold for a single taxpayer under 65. But there are other situations that require a tax return and one of them is having net earnings of over $400 from self employment. It doesn’t matter that she probably shouldn’t be considered self-employed. As far as the IRS knows they have the 1099, and so they are expecting her to file. She should also be aware that she is probably considered her grand parent’s dependent since that person seems to be paying more than half the expenses for the household and for your friend’s keep. And since you mention she nannies for several families, she should be aware that the a dependent is required to file if earned income was over $6,350.

      VITA provides free tax preparation for individuals and families who earn under $54,000 and AARP also provides free tax preparation for anyone, not just seniors. I think their income limit is higher, but I’m not sure what it is. I’d recommend your friend look for one of those services. Those people will have more experience and can advise her on if and how she can address the improper categorization.

      1. Lucas*

        Thank you! I’ll pass this information on to her. We’ve been looking for low-cost/free help for her.

  161. Joielle*

    This is kind of a silly problem, but – I work closely with one particular coworker, and the culture of our office is to just stop by someone’s office and knock on the open door when you want to talk to them. His office is set up such that if he’s on his computer, his back is to the door, and he has a terrible startle reflex – so I end up inadvertently scaring him at least once a day when I knock on his door!

    I don’t think I knock particularly loudly or anything, or at least nobody else is ever startled by my knocks. I’ve tried knocking more quietly but then he doesn’t hear it, or just saying his name or “hey” or something when I walk up, but that feels weird since nobody else does it. I wish he’d just reorganize his desk so the computer was in the other corner, but alas. I’m not sure if I’m looking for advice or just commiseration, but it is a little cathartic to type out either way :)

    1. Anita-ita*

      lol! this is totally me. I am very easily startled. My dad used to play silly games with horror stories and hiding in the bushes with fake Jason masks on and to jump out and scare my brother and I. He also loved to knock on my windows late at night when I had sleepovers pretending to be the boogy man. I’m also completely deaf in my left ear so it’s likely I won’t hear anyone walking up on my left side. I blame this and my dad for my easily startledness :)

    3. Buddythefox*

      I’m like your coworker – very easily startled! I don’t want to speak for him, but as someone in a similar position, it is no bother to me when people come and knock, even if I do a little jump. I’m sure he knows it’s a quirk of his and isn’t annoyed at you at all!

  162. NoTalk*

    How to deal with silent treatment?

    A very young colleague of mine, 23 years old, is giving me the silent treatment for some reason I cannot discern. She will make a point of engaging everyone else in the room, except for me, and will sit or stand where I must walk right in her path to enter, exit or take a seat.

    We are finishing the second week of this behavior, and I don’t know if or how I can truly resolve it. Our supervisor is currently out of the office, so there’s no one to whom I can discuss this matter from a more objective perspective.
    I know she’s upset about something to do with my relatively new presence on the team, but I’m completely at a loss to what it could be. Our work rarely intersects and we don’t socialize within the same groups.

    Please share any strategies you have for resolving this. I don’t want to cause anyone discomfort, but I believe that we need to have a conversation to de-escalate the situation and work toward a more collegial relationship.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      She’s the one causing the discomfort. If she walks in to the room and says hello to everyone except you, loudly say “Hi, Regina, how are you today?” Put it back on her.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. I did this to someone. The results were amazing. The issue just vanished and never returned.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      Treat her like you haven’t noticed any weirdness. This works for both Deliberate Weirdnessing and Unintended Spaciness.

      1. London Calling*

        I have one of those as well – in my case moodiness and snippiness descending all of a sudden, and heavy sighs when you give her something as if one more piece of work is the last straw that’s going to drive her over the edge – and I second this. Plus a cheery ‘Thanks!’ whenever she does something for you or gives you something.

    3. fposte*

      In general, there’s nothing so galling to a sulker as having the sulk not noticed. Greet her like you’d greet everybody else, if she’s in your way, say “Whoops! I need to get right past you there” and when she glacially moves say “Thanks!” All in breezy, slightly absent-minded cheer, like you’re really thinking about puppies.

      I would also say that you don’t have to “resolve” this. You just have to be able to work with it. Regina’s being a twit, but it’s also okay if she doesn’t like you and she doesn’t have to say hello to you. Don’t let that be a metric of your success.

      1. Struck by Lightning*

        +1

        I worked with a woman who gave people the silent treatment over imaginary offenses all the time. It was a running joke in the office. Completely ignoring it and treating her with perky good will was definitely the most effective means of dealing with her. She really craved the drama of her Being Hurt and when everyone ignored it, she didn’t get that positive reinforcement. (I actually grew to like her quite a bit but she definitely took a thick skin to work with!)

      2. nep*

        +1
        ‘…like you’re really thinking about puppies.’ Oh this is going to be my approach in so many ways from here on out.
        fposte, you are priceless. This response is spot on.

    4. The OG Anonsie*

      Are you sure that’s what she’s trying to do? Presumably the everyone else in the room in these circumstances are people she already knows well and has worked with for a while. As you say, you don’t really work or socialize together, maybe she’s not engaging with you as actively because she doesn’t really know you. I’m sure she is most likely not aware that you’re taking this as a slight, especially since it sounds like you haven’t actually tried to engage with her either.

      Hell, maybe she wants to talk to you and is intimidated, perhaps because she’s picked up on you being unhappy with her. Talking with your supervisor or having a “de-escalation” conversation both seem like pretty dramatic overkill. Start talking to her yourself.

      1. NoTalk*

        The OG Anonsie:

        No, I’ve been in the position for nearly two months, and she’s only adopted the silent treatment strategy within the past two weeks.

        Also, she and I got along fairly well until two weeks ago. We made small talk and acknowledged each other’s presence. Nothing major, but nothing hostile.

        I’ve definitely done something to upset her, and she’s decided to freeze me out rather than confront me. While I could point-blank ask her about it, I don’t want to yield to such childish behavior.

    5. Thlayli*

      I would ignore it. She is being childish and ridiculous. Also it doesn’t sound like it’s actually impacting on your work, so you can safely ignore it.

      I’m sure she must behave childishly in other ways too, so I doubt anyone will assume you are in the wrong.

    6. ArtK*

      I agree with all the advice to ignore the silent treatment. Continue to treat her exactly as you did before she started sulking. Not any friendlier and not any less friendly. Carry on as if nothing was happening. She’s being childish one one of the best ways to get a child out of a tantrum or sulk is to ignore it.

  163. mAd Woman*

    I’m the manager of a team within an ad agency. My issue is that I don’t feel like my team is “hungry” for new information about our field. I’m always the one sending articles to them, making them go to professional development workshops (left to their own devices, they never would), and reading updates on the software they use and I really don’t. I wish they would come to me about trends they read about or updates to the programs they use. Is this unreasonable to expect them to do? Overall they are bright young professionals, just not ones who are mentally invested in learning.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      What do you do to incentivize them to continue stretching and learning? Do they have a workload that allows them the time, energy, and brain-space to do so? What do you do to foster an environment of discussion and information-trading?

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        And to add to my food-for-thought questions — how closely are you watching them to see if they do this? Is it possible that they are finding ways to expand their understanding of the field, just ways that aren’t as visible to you?

    2. miyeritari*

      If you’re not requiring your employees to improve themselves (especially outside of work hours or with their own money, which isn’t clear from this post) they’re under no obligation to do so, especially if you think their work is otherwise quite good.

      You could add this information into performance reviews or a rubric, but if it’s not required then they might just have other interests they’d prefer to spend their time on.

    4. LAI*

      I think it’s a little unreasonable. In my field, I’d say it’s considered a bonus if you seek out professional development opportunities but that might mean doing to a conference once a year or attending a local workshop occasionally. We aren’t required and plenty of people don’t go and are still good at their jobs. We are super busy so honestly, no one has time to read up on articles and definitely not to go around talking to other people about them – unless it were a truly newsworthy article that impacted our day-to-day work, people would just feel like you were wasting their time and distracting them from the work they need to do.

    5. NW Mossy*

      This is one of those topics where if you want engagement from your team on it, you need to make it explicit exactly what the benefits are to them, your customers, and the business as a whole. It may seem obvious to you that this is a Good Thing, but it’s clearly not obvious to them because they aren’t doing it. If it’s something they need to do to advance in their careers and/or produce a better quality product, say that – otherwise, you’re forcing them to fumble around in the dark to understand your expectations.

      In the process of trying to articulate this to your team, I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if you find it difficult to describe the benefits in terms of concrete business results. If that happens, it’s an important cue for you to think more about whether or not this is something that falls into the category of a style preference on your part rather than something that’s truly essential to be successful in the role.

  164. Therese*

    Does anyone feel that half the jobs posted on job ads are fake? So many of them just seem sketchy. After bad experiences with staff agencies and temp jobs I refuse to use them. Plus I don’t want to leave a permanent job for a temp job. Also so many of these jobs being posted the pay is so low like $10-$12/hour..like how am I supposed to be making a living? No one wants to pay for benefits. The only way my boss was able to negotiate a raise was to stop having the company pay benefits so dumb. Blah. My generation is going to work till they are 90.

  165. iDoNotMakeTeapots*

    Need help navigating this tricky situation. Apologies in advance for this is a bit long winded, and fairly complicated.
    I work for an online Teapot retailer (we design our own teapots and have them made, and then sell them on our site). I pretty much manage all of the company’s day-to-day operations (without the title of COO, of course). Technically, I am paid the average salary that my title should receive, even though my duties expand far beyond this role. I do a good portion of the accounting, so I know the numbers- they cannot afford to give me a raise. I have been looking for a new position elsewhere, but I’m picky- and quite honestly scared. I have been here for over 5 years now and i am crucial to the success of the company (not to sound arrogant, but i definitely have job security).

    I work very closely with the owner of our Teapot manufacturing facility. The Owner, I will call them Andy, has noticed that I am overworked and underpaid. They too, are looking for more opportunities to make money (they have kids, enough said). Andy approached me the other day and asked if I wanted to help them run a side business- basically help them run operations of a “white label teapot manufacturing business”. (If you dont know what white labeling is, it is basically that we would make the teapot, and then repackage it with their logo, and it would be rebranded as if the client made it).

    This is tricky because the founders had become angry with our full time designer when they asked if they could freelance design for another company. (Now i feel this was warranted, as their ideas are what give us product to sell, and sharing that would mean less for us). The teapots that we design are quite niche to a specific customer, and the teapots i would be making with Andy would be quite generic and frankly, for a different customer. There would be no overlap in teapot designs (Andy would not be using any designs my company has made in this new business of ours).

    1. Do i flesh this out with Andy and then let my company know that i am doing this, or just keep it quiet?
    2. Do I ASK if its ok with them instead of just telling them?
    3. Is this too risky in the first place? Am i putting myself in a conflict of interest situation? I will be using knowledge, knowledge, contacts, and relationships that I have fostered in my current position to help me in this new endeavor.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Did you sign a non-compete contract? It’s common onboarding to sign a bunch of stuff, and point 3 might be a legal no-go.

      Unless you’ve always wanted to run your own business, and Andy’s project sounds like a fantastic way to start that part-time and build it to full-time, and you have nothing else going on outside of work–starting a business is a huge time suck, usually–I would pass. This is earning more money by working a lot more hours–you want a job that pays you more for the sort of work you’ve been doing, and it sounds like you would be more likely to find that at a new employer.

      1. iDoNotMakeTeapots*

        I just checked my original offer letter that i signed, and i do not see a non-compete clause. There is a clause about intellectual property, but I think that is pretty run of the mill- (all stuff created here is property of the company blah blah blah).

        So here’s the “cool” part about Andy’s project (and i realize in my OP i was not clear..) The “operations” per say are already set up, I basically would just interact with the client, give them options of what they can order (teapot colors, teapot sizes, teapot materials, etc), and then let andy know what they ordered, and then Andy’s factory would make up their order & ship it out to them. Obviously this is an *extremely* oversimplified version of events, but I have the resources & relationships to curate clients & offer material choices. Believe me, i am fully aware of the ramifications of starting a business (the current company I work at was started about a year before I was brought on). I don’t personally feel it will be a huge “time-sucker”, especially once the catalog is created. (send catalog, they ask questions, they print logos, we make it & label, we send it out, and then i get a cut of the profits, instead of a commission)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      #3 gets me. If there is any way they can say you took business away from them OR if it even looks like you took business away from them that could be a problem. Either notify all parties involved or don’t do it. Instead make a clean break and go to Andy’s company instead if possible.

  166. ANon*

    Office-friendly, non-sweat-inducing exercise tips?

    Trying to get in better shape and would like to better utilize my lunch hour. Ideally, would like to close my office door and do something that won’t make me all sweaty and smelly! Suggestions would be wonderful!

    1. ANon*

      I should note the germaphobe in me is really grossed out by the idea of touching the floor, so anything I can do while standing would be extra appreciated!

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I try to walk everywhere and take the long route. Like go to the bathroom that is at the end of the hall, instead of the closer one. Take the stairs. Park further away. Little things like that help.

      As far as in-office, non-sweaty exercises….well there’s not much you can do that will make you super fit but you could do some stretching. You could keep a yoga mat in there, or just do some standing stretches, and work on your breathing and posture. Over time your body will thank you for this! It also helps lower your stress levels and just be more focused and aware.

      You can google or youtube videos for office exercises. Amazon video also has a lot of exercise videos.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        Also lots of people love standing desks as another way to improve overall health, so you might look into that if you are interested!

    4. Cruciatus*

      There’s not much I can think of that won’t get you a little sweaty behind closed doors except stretching, as already mentioned (though even stretching sometimes is its own workout). I walk during lunch and when the weather is bad I walk around the conference room table (assuming it’s empty, of course). It can be a little boring, but I usually catch up on social media or play games while doing that. I get warm when I’m walking indoors but not a sweaty mess. Better weather has me outside. Sorry I don’t have more indoor ideas.

    5. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Squats are good, and bring in some small hand weights and use them with the squats, and then do some bicep curls, triceps kickbacks, etc.

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      I really like Barre 3, which is very adaptable. Both physically–the videos often have one person doing normal, one turbo, one modified to address physical issues–and you can also find a workout that is all standing, that is 10 minutes or 60, that is focused on cardio or stretching, etc. I have their basic membership level, mostly just using access to the workout library.

      Link to a 10 minute sample standing workout on Youtube in my username. You can kill the horrid background music if you’re doing it on their website.

      1. MissCPA*

        I just purchased an under-desk elliptical. It was $65 on amazon. Super quiet and can pedal all day!

    7. Nacho*

      You can do desk-pushups without touching the floor (like normal pushups, but use the edge of your desk instead of the floor), but other than that it’s mostly leg related. Squats, knee highs, leg raises, calf raises, etc…

  167. Gi*

    My company was purchased by another, much bigger company, and when the merge was finalized on January 1st last year, one of the changes we had to make was that we had to manually fill out a timesheet at the end of every month and send it to Larger Company’s office every first week of the month. Today I got an e-mail from HR, asking me to verify and sing a contractual clause about having to complete 8 hours a day five days a week and hand in said timesheet after the month ends, but the space where I have to sign off on this contractual change is dated January 1st 2017 instead of February 9th 2018, and it just hit me off the wrong way. Is this normal? Should I raise this concern before I sign the clause and send it back to HR? They want me to sing and send it off today, and although I have already been doing this since January of last year, I don’t understand why it took them 13 months to send me this clause and why they’re dating it as if today is 13 months ago.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Oooh, I don’t like that. Maybe I’m paranoid, but I wouldn’t want to sign an agreement about my work hours that was backdated like that. What if you cross out the date and correct it?

      1. Future Analyst*

        Same, I feel like it’s sketchy that they want you to attest to having worked 8/5s since last Jan. I wouldn’t sign without updating the date, and would say that you wouldn’t want to inadvertently misrepresent anything, since you cannot possibly remember if those conditions were met for over a year, dating a year back.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d just reply back that the date was erroneously marked as 2017 instead of 2018. Just treat it like “of course this is a minor mistake that will get fixed right away”. Hopefully this isn’t anything nefarious.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Don’t sign it until it’s fixed of course, but give them the opportunity to fix it until they do something sketchy like saying that 2017 date is correct. Then start eyeing them askance.

  168. Time Traveller*

    Today I saw a help wanted sign for a job I thought I could do, so I went up and asked about it. They asked me a few questions and then asked if I had a resumé. I said not with me but I could e-mail it to them. They said to please print it out instead and bring it to them. I said all right. So I went home, updated it quickly, and put it onto my 1 GB pendrive that seemed so large back when I was in uni. I looked up printing and copy shops in my city. None are open at this time of night on a Friday evenings but one or two will be open for a few hours on Saturday morning, one of which is only a half hour walk from where I live. Tomorrow, I’ll go on a walk and have them print it. I think I’ll get ten copies, so that if there’s another help wanted sign somewhere else, I will be more prepared for it.

    I have been doing most of my job hunting online like a normal citizen of the 21st century but a surprising number of places where I live still put up handwritten help wanted signs. Sometimes I feel like a time traveller.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      This is really common for small businesses hiring one person now and again–you are far more likely to encounter options physically walking up to them, rather than looking at any webpage they maintain.

    2. Goya de la Mancha*

      Does your local library have printing services/is it any closer? Ours charges like 5-10c per piece of paper? Obviously wouldn’t work if you are looking for bulk printing, but for cases like this, I think it’s a good thing to keep in mind.

      1. Time Traveller*

        That’s a good idea. I looked it up just now. The few smaller library branches near me are closed on weekends, which is a shame because I’ve been wanting to spend more time at the library. The big one downtown is open later on Saturdays than the copy shop is, but the big library is bit farther away (still walkable though) and costs more than 4 times as much as the copy shop which isn’t terrible when we’re talking about 27 cents (for ten copies) vs $1.17 but it’s not nothing either.

    3. Time Traveller*

      UPDATE!

      I had to walk 11km because the first couple copy shops i tried couldn’t get it to work for some reason and then i had to walk all around town to take my resumé to the place I had been yesterday.

      When I went up to the counter, I offered my resumé and said i was interested in the job. They said “oh the boss lady is here right now, we can show it to her.” So I had a job interview! At one point, she asked me when the earliest i could start would be. I said I could even start tomorrow and then we talked some more about what the job would be like and the pay and benefits.

      So, uh, tomorrow at 9am, my trial period starts!

      2. Just Jess*

        That’s awesome and congratulations. When the next gumption post pops up and you’ve got your in-person resume submission story, be sure to post the disclaimer that you got a job by applying in-person since the business literally had a “Help Wanted” sign in their window.

  169. Marzipan*

    Today I was not very anxious at all! After a week in which – not kidding, here – I was literally even getting anxious about the interactions between shoppers and consultants on episodes of Say Yes To The Dress from about a decade ago, that I was watching as the lowest-stakes thing I could find, that’s a big improvement. Hopefully it will continue. In the meantime my boss and grandboss have let me still be at work doing non-alarming things, even though they would probably have preferred it if I’d agreed to be off sick for a little while. So I’ve just been doing admin things, and they were terrifying too, but at least I got to still be vaguely functional and contributing in a small way.

    On a side note, I would just like to say that I feel Kylie Jenner has let the side down a bit with that ‘i’. (KUWTK being my all-time lowest-stakes distraction watch.) Storm would be such a good Kardashian baby name, but sticking an ‘i’ on the end just seems a bit middle-school. But hey, congratulations to her, and whatever.

    1. Marzipan*

      (I know that last bit isn’t really work-related but it’s *someone’s* job. Aaaaaaannnnnddddd, now I’m anxious about saying that in the wrong day. Not cured yet, evidently!)

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      You’re fine! This was work related, and your ‘i’ comment made me laugh. You got this!

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      So that’s why NPR had female economists on All Things Considered today. I noticed they switched up their normal economist experts today.

    2. Reba*

      Thanks for sharing! Going through this now (not at all scientifically) with the citations in my dissertation.

    3. Curious Cat*

      Yes! I really enjoyed this article. Thought it was great, with concrete ways to expand diversity and also holding oneself accountable.

  171. k*

    I had a really frustrating thing happen at work and I don’t … think there’s anything to be done.

    My team had desks in the lab offices, beside a prototyping space we use all the time, which had about 8 people sitting in it who had similarly creative job functions, so we would chat through ideas a lot. We were the worker-bees on my team (6) with the worker-bees or another team (2), the other team developing physical experiences and the 6 of us developing activities. The office had walls you could put stuff on, a chill atmosphere, a couch, places to keep stuff, and even a window, and it is also just a place you can chat because it will be relevant to those around and, with only 10 people, the noise of reasonable conversations doesn’t become overwhelming.

    On Wednesday, we were told we had to move to a set of cubicles in the main office area, which being cubes have no walls to put stuff on (we are allowed to display personal items at our cubes, but it’s not as easy to store items we need for work and ongoing project at our desks, they say they are working on replacing our previous desk spaces with storage … yay), no direct windows to the outside (it does have windows you can see other windows through), a lot more people, and many people whose job functions don’t heavily rely on talking ideas through, and who really need to focus on their work and quiet to do it.

    We are being moved because the team the other 2 people in the office are on needs better cohesion, so 2 other members of that team (one who was quite nearby but in a different room, and their manager, who was on the cube side because there used to be an “all managers must sit in the main office area” rule) are moving in there, and the 6 of us got kicked out. Since I know that one particularly difficult person (who is a bully and doesn’t seem to have much interest in doing his actual job, he just wants to build cool stuff) is the primary team cohesion problem they have, and that this difficult person has used his bullying behavior on me, I can’t help but feel I’m being evicted from my much-beloved desk I’ve had for almost 4 years because there’s one jerk who’s difficult to manage. One of the people on the team who’s staying in the office said she didn’t think it would help, because it’s still not in the same room with Jerk.

    They also didn’t talk to us about it at all before hand, they just issued a diktat to move by Friday, and hadn’t told the people whose space we’d be moving into (some of the empty desks were being used for storage) we would be moving, hadn’t asked if we had any concerns so we could address them, just told us to be loud and it’s the people who need to focus’ problem if they don’t like our talking, and also that this will make us closer with other teams, even though we will be trying to do our chatty jobs in their primarily quiet workspace that isn’t set up to make chatting not super disruptive. I have someone who comes in on Saturdays to help with an event, and I said “what about her, where will she go” and my boss was like “oh yeah, I hadn’t thought about her” uh-huh. If they had gotten us on board with the idea that we were going to try this to see if it helps the other team, and had done stuff to make the transition easier — like set up structures to talk about noise levels — maybe we wouldn’t feel like we’re being screwed and would be on board!

    This is also an organization that says it values collaboration and being empathetic. Half of the people who just got kicked out of our desks are on our employee engagement committee, and it’s like maybe we don’t need this committee, maybe we just need to treat people with respect. Sigh. We are also all considering quitting, not over losing our desks, but over loss of trust in our boss to treat us with respect.

    If anyone has thoughts of things we could do, I would love to hear them. I don’t think we can reverse the desk decision. I also remember how much worse it was in the cubes because I sat there when I started, so the “this will be a great new way to work” thing isn’t holding much water with me.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Many people whose job functions don’t heavily rely on talking ideas through, and who really need to focus on their work and quiet to do it.

      If you have any room to push back on this move, this is where to drive the wedge. It impacts your job and the job of all the people around you.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Give the new work space a shot and really try to make it work. You’ve got a groupthink going on.

      1. k*

        Thanks for the advice, and obviously I’m not going to be an ongoing jerk about it when I get there, but it’s in fact not a new work space. I’ll be sitting one desk away from where my desk was when I first started. And it took a lot of effort and lobbying (to a manager who has since left) to be moved over to the other office in the first place. The cubes are certainly not like some sort of waste land (although the people in the cubes do call this row of desks “skid row”), the people over there are pleasant, I’ll still be sitting with my team, and there are some people I’ll be really happy to be nearer to, but the problems that made it difficult to be over there last time have not vanished, and I think are really primarily due to the actual structure of the two spaces.

        Additionally, the primary problem isn’t having to move desks – it’s that our manager (and the manager of the team taking over the other space) apparently thought “just do it quickly so they’ll be mad and it’ll blow over so you don’t have to talk through any concerns” would actually be the best way to get this done. And she’s gotten us to do plenty of things we are not all super excited about before (like switching project portfolios from what we were hired for) by talking them through with us, allowing us to talk about concerns, understand why we’re doing it, and moving forward with a plan to address the concerns as they arise. This was not that. I don’t think they thought it would be as much of a breach of trust as it was (and this is probably situational and part of the weirdly competing cultures at our workplace), but based on how everyone else reacted, it’s not like if they had asked around people would have been like “yeah do it that way.”

  172. Kylo Pen*

    What is the correct way to respond to negative feedback? For instance, if you receive feedback that you screwed something up is it best to: 1) just say “yes” and move on, 2) explain where things went wrong or 3) do some combination of the two? I feel like if I don’t explain what went wrong I look naive or like I don’t understand that I screwed up. I also though feel like it can look like I’m trying to make excuses if I try to explain what happened …

    1. clow*

      I think its in the way you explain it. You can explain where things went wrong by saying what you would do differently if you had to do it over.

    2. beanie beans*

      I think it’s important to not look like you’re resisting receiving feedback if you did screw up. You could word it something like:
      “I understand that I screwed up by [miscategorizing the llamas]. I want to make sure I don’t make this mistake again, so do you mind if I explain what happened so I can make sure I’m clear where things went wrong and how I can do better in the future?”

    3. Nanc*

      I read a really great book around this.
      Thanks for the Feedback: The Science and Art of Receiving Feedback Well by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen. In fact, I think it was recommended on an AAM open thread.

      I ended up buying a copy after getting it from my library.

    4. fposte*

      It varies, but I would say your better choices are 1) say yes and move on or 4) explain what you’ll do to make sure it doesn’t happen again. What you really want to avoid is being the person that goes for an explanation every. single. time. you get told something is wrong.

      It’s fine to sometimes provide some information where there’s a genuine misunderstanding–“I’m sorry I put the unfired teapots on the wrong shelf; is that because Jane’s stuff is in there now too, or do unfired items just go elsewhere?” But as a manager, in general I’m not keen to know why a mistake was made and it’s not usually a good use of my time to hear why on the regular; I just want it not to happen again.

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I think the first step you need to take is to acknowledge that you did in fact mess up, and make sure whoever you’re speaking with understands that you understand that you were wrong. Once that’s clear, you can say “I reasoned it out like XWZ, but now I can see that it should have been XYZ instead. Did I get that correct?”

      So for example, I had this come up recently in a discussion with my boss. Here’s approximately how it went down.

      Boss: Hey, let’s go over this call together. [We listen to call.]
      Me: … Oh, this is about the treats I told her to give her llama, right?
      Boss: Yep. Llamas actually shouldn’t eat horse treats.
      Me: Oh lord. I’m so sorry! I was running internet searches on the ingredients of llama treats and horse treats while we were talking, and it looked like they had the same balance of sugar. Is it something besides the sugar that’s the issue?
      Boss: Right, it’s the amount of fiber that’s the problem.
      Me: Oh, gotcha, I understand. Right, horses are way bigger and they have different fiber needs. Now that you’ve pointed it out, I see it. This didn’t get covered under the Licensed Llama Groomer cert, should I let other teammates know?
      Boss: That’s a great idea, please do.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is a great example. Notice the immediate apology. It’s hugely important to show the attitude of “I want to fix this” as opposed to “I am right and you are wrong”.

        The next thing to notice is that while “me” gives an explanation, there is a question at the end. And the explanation is very short, it assumes the boss knows enough background to pick up the conversation. Again, the question at the end also shows a willingness to change direction.

        And bonus points for figuring out ways to not make that mistake again or helping others not to fall into the same pit.

        Overall the focus is on the work itself and not on personalizing the critique.

    6. Nacho*

      1, never 2. You don’t want to look defensive or like you don’t understand that you messed up, and the other person really doesn’t care about your excuses. They just want to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

    7. NW Mossy*

      One good way to get started off on the right foot in taking negative feedback is to say thank you. It sounds weird, but it’s an easy way of acknowledging that you’ve heard the feedback and that you intend to take it seriously. From there, you can get into specifics about what your ideas for remedies/prevention are, which is really what most bosses care about. In doing so you might talk a little bit about why you did what you did, but that’s generally scene-setting, not the focus of what you’re saying.

  173. clow*

    my manager told me yesterday that I should write down all the things ive done this project and how they made the project better so that I can maybe get a raise (i didnt ask about raises to be clear, he just told me to do this). Reminded me of the letter from the other day. I’m not sure what to think, but I guess I will write down whatever I think of.

  174. KayEss*

    So I made a bit of a misstep in my job search… during an HR phone screen for a position, I named my desired salary as $60-$65K. That’s the number I’ve had in my mind relative to my previous salary. However, in moving through the interview process and personally reviewing things that would need to change if I take this position (much longer commute involving both parking and public transit costs, eventual move that may only partially alleviate that while incurring other increased costs, etc.) I’m finding that I’m really going to need $65K minimum in order to make things work comfortably. Any tips on negotiating this gracefully if it comes to that?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t wait until it comes to that. I would get back to HR and say what you said here—that that was the initial salary you were considering, but after re-evaluating, $65K would be your minimum. If you wait longer to say that, it seems disingenuous.

    2. ANon*

      There’s some leeway to say, “After learning more about this position, I realize the estimate I originally gave you was a bit low…” and explaining what you learned about the position that changed your salary requirements.

    3. Reba*

      I think there’s a natural opening once you have an offer and have seen the whole benefits package to have the conversation starting with the above opening “after learning more… based on the whole compensation package I’d need 65+ to come on”
      Bonus points if you learn more about market rate and your value (not just what you need in your personal budget). Good luck!

      1. KayEss*

        Thanks, this is kind of what I was thinking. I’ve found that $60-65K is pretty middle-of-the-road average for my position and experience in my area, which is why I felt comfortable giving that number in the HR screen. I feel like I’ll be okay pushing back a bit if they offer below $65K, but if they decide to really play hardball I’ll have a tough decision to make.

        At least it’s less awkward than if I realized I’d need $70K or something after quoting $60-65K! Lesson learned.

  175. The Guilty Replacement*

    After 8 months of unemployment, I think I’ll be getting a job offer next week. But I’m “the replacement” as in the person in the position is still making teapots. I’m not sure if/what the person knows since they purposefully avoided us having even a chance interaction during the in-persons. I know that searching for a new employee before you’ve fired the old one is a major red flag, but this would be a serious step up for my career. Since it’s kind of a small industry & we have multiple mutual connections, can I ask the hiring manager during negotiations how they plan on ending things with the about-to-be former employee? Can I ask for a little extra time in between the letting-go & my onboarding to avoid suspicions and so I don’t feel bad about posting the news?

    1. Buu*

      I’d not mention it to the hiring manager! I left a job a little while ago and my replacement I think was interviewed while I was still there, I never saw them and that was a job I quit on good terms.

      If you’re concerns are about sharing the news, I’d wait until you’ve been at the job for a bit. I tend to wait until I pass probation to update my professional stuff! That way I suspect most people won’t even realise. I know you’ve been out of work for a bit but a little ” I wan’t to settle in a bit before I share the news” would be a good response back.

  176. Reba*

    Just got out of an EEOC/harrassment prevention training — it was actually good! I found it really interesting and was most pleased by the supportive and employee-focused attitude of the representatives.

    Very different from a training my spouse recently had on the same topic, in which they were told to never apologize for things they may done wrong!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            So many people believe this.
            And yet I read of people saying, “I would not have sued if they had just said they were sorry. But they’d choke and die if they had to say those words.”

  177. Bella*

    What is your favorite management book, preferably one that covers topics such as difficult conversations or being a first time manager.

    1. MissCPA*

      I have the book Radical Candor: be a kick-ass boss without losing your humanity by Kim Scott on my to-read list. She also has an amazing podcast which I’ve listened to if you’re into that sort of thing!

    2. NW Mossy*

      My favorite management podcast (Manager Tools) recently published a book called “The Effective Manager” – I’ve yet to read it, but they offer really good practical advice for how to talk to employees and get good results from them. Their deep podcast library is searchable and offers really targeted advice for specific situations – “How To Manage an Arrogant Producer” and “My Direct Doesn’t Want to Change” are ones I found really helpful, but there are tons more.

  178. Anonymous Ampersand*

    I’ve had a really good week in week. Doing some projects in an area I haven’t done for a while and got really good feedback on them. Had a day trawling through emails, got a load deleted and found some outdated stuff that is nonetheless useful for something I’m doing now. And the best bit, it looks like I’m likely to have a better job after the restructure. I’ve never been promoted or regraded since I started working 20 years ago. I’ve never really seen any proper career path anywhere I’ve ever worked before but I’m really enjoying this and I can see options for where I could go next.

    But any keeping fingers crossed for me would still be much appreciated!

  179. Environmental Gone Public Health*

    I have an interview next week! It’s with an ethanol plant as their environmental manager.

    Biggest question: I already have the interview, but they’re making me fill out an application form, I assume for their records. It asks past salaries and my salary expectation. I have always worked at either state or county gov’t, which pays really, really low. I don’t think my salaries as a public servant have any relation to what I would make in the private sector. The box just says “salary”. I don’t want to fill it out and have them low-ball me just because I’ve made pbbbt before. Would it be awful of me to put N/A in the past salary boxes? Also need to decide what to put in salary expectations since the interwebs vary wildly. A previous supervisor gave me a suggestion (which is a number that blows my mind), but I’m having a hard time justifying the number to myself because it would more than double my current salary.

    1. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

      If it’s a paper application, you could just leave the salary part blank. They already know that people don’t want to share this info.

      1. Environmental Gone Public Health*

        I was thinking of that too. I was a little bit worried at the legalese at the end with misrepresentation or omission of fact may be grounds for rejection. I would hope that any half way decent companies wouldn’t base too much on not including that information. Right now I’ve put in a “seeking xxx range”.

  180. BigSigh*

    Do the big number!!! If yuo’ve never priced yourself out of a job, you’re doing it wrong. Check glassdoor and see what those ranges are.

    For the salary portion, but your preferred range.

    current salary: seeking 100-150k

    salary expectations: seeking 100-150k

  181. Rusty Shackelford*

    Trying to figure out if I’m the a-hole, or if my coworker is… If you’re in an office or cubicle setting, do you think your neighbors should expect to hear your radio? Or do you think it should be kept low enough so that only you can hear it?

    1. Fabulous*

      That’s what headphones are for, unless you’re in an office environment where music is to be expected.

    2. Reba*

      I would be mortified if others could hear my music. Not because of the music, but because I don’t want to bother people!

      I am always amazed when for example people pull out their portable speakers in the park (a crowded urban park on a beautiful day, so my picnic blanket is like a few inches from theirs) because it just would not occur to me that it would be ok to impose my music, played out a of sh*tty speaker, on everyone else.

      But clearly this is not a universal belief. And also, it’s kind of part of being around other humans, we make noise sometimes.

      1. Environmental Gone Public Health*

        My current boss does this all the time. We all have private offices, but she puts her Bluetooth speaker on max, refuses to close her office door, then gets irritated with me when I close my door or put headphones in. Dude, I don’t wanna hear your awful music! I just want to concentrate on work!

    3. Francesca*

      I think you should wear headphones and not inflict noise on your colleagues, ideally. Failing that, you should keep it low enough that only you can hear it.

    4. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

      I would expect people to use headphones if they don’t have their own office.

    5. Curious Cat*

      Yeah definitely either keep volume so, so low only you can hear it, or wear headphones. Although I have someone on the floor of my office who enjoys playing the banjo with his office door open. Many times I have had to go over to him and ask to close the door.

    6. Goya de la Mancha*

      We have a fairly open office, and everyone uses pandora/spotify at their desk. We can’t wear headphones, so there is a little mixing of tune-age sometimes, but it’s hard to balance the “I can hear it” VS “I can hear it 5 feet from my desk”.

    8. Yams*

      Goodness, I had a coworker who always had her radio on. I absolutely loathed her because of it! I celebrated the day she resigned. I had another coworker who always had terrible music on a small radio that “only he could hear,” this was such a quiet office, where we weren’t allowed headphones, that I could hear every single word. He loved a very polarizing genre of music that drove me insane.
      Please, have mercy on your coworkers and wear headphones. In a quiet environment I’m not even sure there’s a volume that’s not disruptive.

  182. Just Peachy*

    Of course it should be kept low enough to wear only you can hear it. Or, the obvious, wear headphones!

  183. tangerineRose*

    Pros and cons of being a subcontractor? Trying to figure out what I need to do. This is in software development.

    Sorry if this is too late in the thread.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Not the same but perhaps similar enough. I have seen in construction where the contractor bids the work for x amount. He does a crappy job at estimating how much work there actually is, he fails to factor in unforeseens and a host of other issues.
      Then, whoops, no time to do the job, so will subcontracter it out. Enter in subcontractor. He believes what the contractor told him about the job and believes that is the full extent of the work. So he takes the job, not realizing the contractor failed to mention extenuating circumstances A through D. The subcontractor starts the job and over a few days realizes there is way more work than he bargained for but he agreed to do it for what is now a very low price. Subcontractor is screwed, he has to take the loss. Contractor ends up unhappy with the subcontractor and the property owner ends up mad at both of them. What a mess.

      If someone is basically deciding your price FOR you (subcontracting), watch what is going on. There is a reason why they do not want to do the work.

  184. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

    Hope this doesn’t get lost at the bottom. Please read!

    I’m trying to figure out what levels of seniority/authority correspond with different types of tasks. Let’s say my title is “Teapot Lending Program Manager” but I think most of my work is at an assistant level. Not admin work, but more like a program assistant or executive assistant (I report to the EVP), which is a position I held out of college, 11 years and a professional degree ago.

    What level would you put the following tasks?
    a) providing a 3-5 sentence update to the EVP on the completion status of various projects, based on reports sent by our external partners (not summarizing anything, just pulling out percentages and dates).
    b) writing advocacy letters to congressional staff
    c) listening in on industry conference calls on behalf of EVP when she is unable to attend and updating her afterward
    d) editing funding proposal cover letters
    e) reviewing and approving fund disbursement requests for investments by checking invoices to ensure the total requested has been accurately documented
    f) following up with clients who don’t send their reports to make sure we receive them
    g) ensuring that we send our required reports to our funders on time (but not actually preparing them)
    h) attending industry conferences and meetings along with senior staff

    I feel like, at best, this is something like junior associate work. I am actually well paid, and the working conditions are fairly laid back, but I feel pretty disengaged, unchallenged and underutilized. I initially turned down the position, saying that I was looking for more of an opportunity to grow professionally. But I was asked to reconsider it and did after the EVP and President assured me they understood what I was looking for and that this would be that opportunity. They also changed the prospective title from “Sr. Associate” to “Program Manager” But there’s no real decision-making, no supervisory responsibilities, mostly assigned tasks that I feel they could train someone with less experience and education (and salary) to do.

    1. KayEss*

      I can’t really assess since my field is very different, but one thing you could do is investigate open job postings with titles similar to yours in your field and compare the listed responsibilities.

      Title inflation is very real in some industries, usually because they’re trying to use a “better” title as compensation in lieu of money. I once saw a director with one report below her (who had no reports, himself) negotiate her title up to “executive director” because she was gaining a second report position that would for some reason come with its own director-level title. It was wild.

      1. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

        That’s a good idea. I actually found one for a “program assistant” at a leading org in this industry asking for a BA and 2 yrs. experience. Seeing those duties listed helped to validate what I’ve been feeling.

    2. plaid unicorn*

      I agree, those responsibilities are in line with an EA or program assistant. Inflating your title is not the same as actually giving you the kinds of responsibilities and challenges you want. Honestly, if this is their solution, it’s time for you to move on.

      My org has just adopted some new role titles which includes heavily revising the responsibilities of the teapot records manager and changing their title to teapot records program manager (obviously not the real titles). Despite the “manager” title, this is an administrative role which requires learning the records software and being great at searching, coordinating, maintaining, following up on things… but definitely not managing. When you search Indeed or Glassdoor for this new job title, the postings are for jobs involving budgeting, strategic planning, and other responsibilities that make sense for someone managing a program. So not only do they have an inflated title, they’re at a disadvantage if they want to job search because their current title doesn’t match what other companies would call the job. Daft.

  185. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

    Does anyone have any advice for dealing with a colleague who constantly shoots down everybody’s ideas–including mine? For clarification, this is religious employment. This colleague and I are equals, but she has been at our church for 15 years, whereas I have only been there for 1 year, so she has a little more authority than I do. One of our current concerns is growth, and my colleague often complains that we aren’t actively doing anything to facilitate growth. But, every time that someone has an idea, whether it be me or somebody else, she instantly shoots it down.

    “We tried that 10 years ago, and it didn’t work.” “I’ve been trying that for the past 15 years–if it didn’t work then, it won’t work now.” “That’s not going to work. In the neighborhood that we are in, nobody is going to be interested.”

    I very much respect her as a colleague and as a person, and I don’t want to threaten our relationship, but I’m really getting frustrated. I understand that she has tried many different things over the years, and everyone appreciates all of her work and her insights, but knocking every single idea down because she already tried it once isn’t getting us anywhere. I have noticed that others are becoming less and less willing to suggest things, and I can’t help but wonder if its because they are getting tired of being shot down. I am becomingly increasingly annoyed with her complaints about our lack of growth and outreach, because at this point, she’s part of the problem by not allowing anyone to try anything. Is there a kind but effective way to say, “Margaret (not her real name), every time we discuss the growth problem, you immediately veto everyone’s ideas. If we keep sitting here month after month, listening to you shoot down ideas, no positive change is ever going to happen. Either let us try, or stop complaining about it. You’re part of the reason that nothing is happening.”

    1. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

      Maybe you can start asking her questions about why certain things didn’t work in the past. That way you’ll either learn something new or that she’s just a pessimist. With more information on why she thinks different ideas won’t work, you can then offer modified suggestions that improve upon what was done in the past.

      Has she offered any ideas herself?

    2. Manders*

      This sounds like it’s basically a marketing problem for your organization, so is it possible for you to bring on an outsider who specializes in marketing as a consultant or a volunteer?

      Something that’s really frustrating when you’re trying to promote an organization is that you can screw up the execution of outreach, fail because of some small technical issue or oversight, and end up thinking that that type of outreach doesn’t work at all. Sometimes a campaign doesn’t really pick up steam until you’ve been working at it for a while. And once in a while, an outreach campaign just doesn’t work for reasons no one can predict or fix. I’ve known a lot of people who worked at small organizations for too long and developed unshakeable prejudices against certain types of project because their efforts flopped once. An outsider who’s an expert in this type of work might be able to get through to Margaret better than a colleague.

    3. Anony*

      Try engaging her when she says “It didn’t work”. Ask what exactly was done and why exactly it failed (and how). Did it have no effect or just not enough of an effect? Basically make her put work into shooting ideas down and hopefully help everyone learn more about what happened to improve your understanding of the issues. It will either make it a more productive discussion or at least make her think twice about whether she wants to speak up.

    4. ArtK*

      This is one of those situations where it’s appropriate to turn it around on her.

      She: “We’re not growing”
      Thee: “I know. What ideas to you have?”

      Don’t suggest anything in response to her. If she shoots you down in a meeting, turn it back on her again. “Oh, I didn’t know it had been tried before. What ideas do you have?”

      There are lots of people there who like to complain but never want to actually do something. I absolutely hate the “Don’t come to me with a problem unless you have a solution, too,” but people like your colleague are the reasons that gets bandied about.

    5. ArtK*

      Something additional, since I didn’t completely read your post (sorry, bad habit.) You’re looking for a “kind but effective way” to say that. I can read your mind and what you’re looking for is a way to say it that she won’t push back on or get offended. It doesn’t exist. There are no magic words that can make an unreasonable person see reason.

      Push back given the things you’ve got here (frankly, your phrasing is fine.) If she gets upset, that’s on her, not you. Just because someone else is unhappy, it doesn’t mean that you’ve done anything wrong.

    6. zora*

      I would approach this by organizing a little better. Have regularly scheduled meetings to discuss “growth initiatives” and make it a more structured meeting. You need to be an active facilitator, not just let her de facto take over.

      – Tell everyone ahead of time about this meeting and to come prepared with some ideas
      – Have structured brainstorming. But approach it from a strategic place. There are tons of resources all over the internet for different ways to do this. One way is a SWOT approach.
      – During brainstorming NO ideas are shot down, everything gets considered.
      – Use some of many techniques for picking the most realistic ideas and implementing them. It can be majority rule or whatever, but basically, you need to prevent her getting a de facto 1-person veto.
      – Then a team is assigned to implement these ideas. She doesn’t have to be on the team, but she can’t prevent it from happening either.

      One angle for looking for resources for yourself would be for managing volunteers and volunteer organizations. I get that she is paid, but in a religious organization there is a higher bar for being kind to each other and it can be useful to approach this as if she is a supportive volunteer, not someone you can boss around and give blunt direction to.

      I would actually recommend you find yourself a meeting facilitation training asap, before you try to do these meetings. It’s harder than people realize to run effective meetings, especially when you have a disruptive person you can’t eject from the meeting. I think more people need to take some actual training, it makes a HUGE difference in the effectiveness of meetings if someone knows how to guide it.

      Alternatively, you create a “Growth Committee” (that could be a combo of paid staff and congregants) and Margaret is NOT ON IT. You can frame this to her as “I know you are way too busy with other stuff, so the committee and I will take the lead on making some stuff happen” and you have a smaller group that can actually try out some of your ideas without her having any say in whether or not they are ‘good’ ideas. But I don’t know if this is possible with your structure.

      1. zora*

        Also, reframing this a bit might help you manage it better. Someone who has been a staffer in a small religious organization for 15 years with very limited resources is probably Burnt The Heck Out at this point. Her negative attitude is a very common result of working hard for many many years without enough support to really accomplish anything big. Not that it is an excuse, but if you can approach it as her being burned out, rather than her just being a big jerk, it might make it easier for you to be patient with her, and to get at what she is really saying instead of just “everything is the worst”.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Random suggestions:
      Ask the pastor to have a talk with her. Let the pastor know she is causing yet another hurdle.

      Ask the pastor to move her to something else besides “growth”.

      Bring in outside resources such as members from your hierarchy or other churches in your group to toss ideas around. This is probably your best bet, bringing in outsiders.

      I know that many church groups pray before they start the meeting. Maybe you can lead a prayer that says something to the effect of “Help us to focus on what we CAN try.” Or “Help us to focus on positives.”

  186. Negative Nelly*

    Is it normal to dread work travel?

    I NEVER travel for work, but have to do a week long training at our corporate office and stay in a hotel. Per out itinerary, some corporate personnel are taking us out to dinner every night after training. This sounds AWFUL to me. One night would be fine, but I feel like the only time I’ll have all week to relax and wind down from training is being taken away from me, and the only time I’ll have to myself is when I go to sleep. Just thinking about it drains my energy. Am I being ridiculous, and would it be antisocial of me to gracefully bow out on these after work social gatherings? For what it’s worth, there are 11 others in this week long training, none of which are from my office, so, I will never see most of these people again. I have excellent rapport in my own office, and do not think that bowing out of these dinners will make me be seen in a bad light.

    On another note, I’m dreading this trip anyway for other reasons:
    -I’m a total homebody and hate the thought of leaving my husband all week
    -I’m planning on a career change next fall (for many reasons, which have been well-thought out), so I feel like this trip is a huge waste of time.
    -This training is actually geared towards Teapot Salesmen. I’m just a Teapot Supporter, and think a lot of the training wouldn’t be relevant to me even if I WEREN’T planning on leaving my company this year.

    How do I stop my negative attitude and make the most of this?!

    1. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

      Well, you do have to eat dinner, right?

      You could probably get away with skipping one night, and others may as well. But you might cheer yourself up by realizing that it’s just a dinner. All you have to do is eat and laugh at appropriate times. Don’t stress yourself over something that doesn’t need to be stressful.

    2. Irish Em*

      The only advice I can offer is to order your favourite foods each night, and if socialing is required just talk about how delicious the food is (unless you *want* to network/work chat with anyone).

    3. Kathleen_A*

      I’m with you, Nelly – I would just *hate* this. Some dinners would be OK, but every night? Blech!

      But although I think you have to attend at least some of the dinners (if I had to guess, I’d say you probably should go the first night and the last night), I think it might be possible to dodge out of at least a couple of them. In my experience, the people who arrange these dinners are almost doing just to be nice – they are simply trying to be hospitable to all the out-of-towners, particularly those who love to have dinner plans every single night. And in that case, they don’t necessarily expect everyone to attend every dinner.

      Can you ask your manager about this to find out if bowing out of some of the dinners would be OK? Because it really and truly might very well be. Honest. It would be at almost every conference and so on that I’ve ever attended.

      If you aren’t OK with asking, what I would do is midway through the week, I’d go up to the organizer right after the training ended, and I’d say, “I’m sorry, but I’m not feeling very well.” (Which in my case would be true – if I had to eat dinner with a bunch of near-strangers every night, I would not be at my best!) “I think I’m just going to have a quiet evening in the hotel. I hope that doesn’t inconvenience you in any way?” And I can pretty much promise you that the organizer would say (and mean), “Oh, that’s fine – I hope you feel better tomorrow.” And then he/she won’t think another thing about it, except to ask you the next day if you’re feeling better.

      Then I’d grab a quick bite in a nearby restaurant (one nowhere in the vicinity of the restaurant the rest of the group is going to) or order a pizza or room service, and have a quiet evening in my hotel room all by myself.

      One other evening, you can claim you have some work to catch up on.

      It could be that as you attend dinner #2 or #3, you’ll notice a few other people who aren’t there either. That really is pretty normal for these group dinners, at least in my experience.

    5. periwinkle*

      The corporate office folks are likely offering the nightly dinners as an opportunity to network, be social, and otherwise not be stuck in your hotel room the whole week. It’s hospitality and not meant to be torture!

      Attend a couple of the dinners when the restaurant sounds tempting, but if you prefer, bow gracefully out of the others. You’re tired/you need to catch up on some work/you’ve schedule a Facetime chat with your spouse/etc.

      When I attend a conference with colleagues I know and like, great, I’ll spend most dinners with them plus maybe one or two evenings chatting in the car. If I’m there with people I don’t know well (or at all), room service or takeaway food plus Netflix is lovely.

  187. Question Mark*

    I wrote last week about the coworker “Skylar” who claimed she had “BPD” (Borderline Personality Disorder) and was using that as an excuse to be abusive to others, and admitted that she made it up in a text after reading on Tumblr how ‘cool’ it was. She claimed her BPD made her have “alternate personalities” she called “alts” and that each had their own name.

    Anyway, four of us went to HR together. HR had two people in the meeting–they looked at the texts and had us explain what was going on individually. We’re certain there’s an investigation open because others in our department have been called in as well. And, Skylar has stopped coming in and screaming at people for calling her by the “wrong” name.

    So we’ll see what ends up happening.
    Thanks for all the advice.

    1. fposte*

      That is good news; I’m glad you were able to work together and report this, because it shouldn’t be happening.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Dear Skylar – if you are going to fake a ‘trendy’ mental illness, at least call it the right thing.

      Like, I know that’s hardly the point of the issue at all, but it has been bugging me since your post last week.

    3. Temperance*

      It sounds like she does have some serious mental health issues, but not the one she thinks is cool. Also, no one thinks BPD is cool, unless she’s really into Crazy Ex-Girlfriend or something. Yikes.

    5. Louise*

      Ya know it’s people like this that make it hard for those of us with actual mental illnesses to be taken seriously. God that’s infuriating.

  188. Bw*

    What are semi-personal issues that are acceptable to bring up to your manager? My attitude has always been that a manager isn’t your friend and you should be careful about what you say to them because it may make you look like someone they don’t want on their team, but I’ve seen coworkers complain about all sorts of things to their managers and they have not been let go – so maybe I have a bad understanding of what a manager does.

    One issue I currently have is my level of stress due to a Fergus at my company (see blog post before this one). He’s not directly under my manager, but I do have to work with him and his incompetence is affecting my workload. I thought about transferring to a different department, but unfortunately his position does call for him to interact with just about every department in the company, and the goal is to NOT have to work with him again. As a result, I have seriously thought about quitting, even though I otherwise like everything about my job.

    Is there any way to phrase my situation without flat-out saying “I don’t like Fergus” and not look like I’m not a team player? Have I stewed over for too long that at this point I have no choice but to quit and start over somewhere new?

    1. fposte*

      I think for something like that the question is how actionable the statement is. “Manager, I struggle with Fergus sometimes–do you have any guidance for working with him more smoothly?” is actionable. “I don’t like Fergus” isn’t. So what action are you hoping for? Is there something your manager could do so his incompetence doesn’t affect you or affects you less? That’s a thing to talk about.

      And you’ve already identified him as being incompetent in a not-uncommon way, so there’s a risk that you’re uprooting yourself just to find another Fergus in your new job. Not all workplaces do, but it’s frequent enough that it’s worth thinking about that possibility when you make the choice and seeing if there are other strategies that can minimize his impact in a job you otherwise like.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think a good guideline is to think about the impact to your work. Obviously Fergus is impacting your work – and that’s legitimate to bring up to your boss. As fposte said, phrase as something actionable.

      I don’t typically bring up personal things to my manager, unless it is something really big – a death in the family, plumbing flooded my house, etc. Can you describe some of the personal things your coworkers have brought to your manager that you consider would be worth firing them over?

      A manager is not meant to be your “friend” but it doesn’t mean you can’t be friendly with her. I have a pretty good rapport with my manager – he asks how our families are doing, he’s interested in my kitchen remodel, etc – but he has very good boundaries and is a good manager, so I don’t feel pressured to overshare, but I also don’t feel like I have to censor myself just to make sure I don’t seem like I’m high drama or anything like that.

      1. kmb*

        Yeah I think talking about what’s going on in your work is a good way to approach it too – just laying out what’s going on, what you’ve tried to do about it (have you asked Fergus what’s up? Can you?) . Often I’ll kind of go with a plan and see if my plan sounds reasonable, or if I have no idea what to do, ask if I can get help or some suggestions.

        You might also see if anyone else who also reports to your manager has challenges with them – and then see if you can address it as “this is a teams working together problem” not a “Fergus vs you” problem. Probably, other people would be having the problem, and as long as you could keep it so your language isn’t like “ugh we hate Fergus” and more like “we need to find a better way to collaborate” that might help get something standard sorted out for everyone.

    3. ArtK*

      Your boss doesn’t care that you don’t like Fergus. Your boss cares that you get your work done. If Fergus is holding up your work or otherwise affecting it, that’s what you need to tell your boss about. Document, document, document! Lots of “follow up” e-mails: “Fergus, per our conversation this morning, you agreed to staple the TPS report today. Thanks.”

    4. NW Mossy*

      One other thing you can consider is talking to your manager about the best way to get feedback to Fergus’s manager when it’s impacting results for the business. It’s certainly true that one person’s feedback typically isn’t enough (and generally shouldn’t be enough) to get someone fired, but pieces of feedback from multiple people often starts to put together a picture of how well someone’s doing in their role. I actively encourage others to give me feedback about those who report to me and I do discuss it with them so that my employees are getting the info they need to be effective in their jobs.

      I’m sure part of this is because I’m a manager myself, but I’m pretty open about sharing with my boss when I’m running into roadblocks with someone else. What exactly happens after that conversation varies – sometimes, I’ll go direct to the person I’m struggling with, sometimes I’ll go to their boss, and sometimes my boss will go to their boss. A lot of that depends on the relationships and the politics of different levels and how different departments work with each other, but it’s definitely a big part of how I deal with situations where someone else’s behavior is getting in the way for me or my team.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I think you are mixing two things that do not need to be mixed.

      Personal issues are health, family, budgeting and so on

      Disliking Fergus may not be a personal issue. The first thing to keep in mind is that it does not matter if we like or dislike someone, we are being compensated to get along with them anyway. I have worked with a few people I would never, ever invite to dinner, but this does not matter. And no matter where we are working there will always be that one person who annoys everyone.

      So what is Fergus doing that has provoked this strong reaction you are having?

  189. 2nd shift*

    How do you guys deal with your manager being weak and not willing to hold his reports accountable for their actions or lack thereof ?

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      If you’re not in a position to find another job, what I have done is make sure I do my very best and document everything I can – meaning, if a coworker is supposed to do task A in order for me to complete a project, and Manager doesn’t make sure they complete it, I’ll have it documented that task A was assigned to them and they are the hold up. I try to be very transparent with everyone I work with about our responsibilities – I send a lot of emails with action items to everyone and to the manager.

      Basically my strategy is to be very open and clear that *I* am doing my work, and let it show through that no one else is. And try to find a new job…but I know sometimes you just can’t do that, and it does take a long time/lots of energy to get one.

  190. Leaving Anon*

    Hi – asking in case anyone has had a similar experience or happens to have expertise. For ref, I am in consulting and this is my first job out of college. I have been a very good employee (good reviews/relationships with managers/partners) and am leaving for grad school to become a teacher. I gave one month notice (I have in writing) about a week and a half ago (was under water with multiple projects at work and set up a meeting with my manage to figure out how I could manage – felt strongly that I didn’t want to lie to him considering my notice was upcoming). I felt as though they would be appreciative, it would allow me to smoothly wrap up client work and transition out. I was told (no discussion) by my manager that my last day will be a week and a half earlier than the day I gave notice for.
    Have I been let go? Do I have any basis for severance or unemployment benefits?

    Thanks in advance – no need to comment that I should’ve given two weeks notice, too late for that :)

    1. Dovahkiin*

      Unless you have a contract, no, you haven’t been let go, and no, you don’t have any basis for severance/unemployment since you gave your notice.

      Once you’ve announced your resignation your company can release you early. Giving a last day is a courtesy and sometimes companies are happy to have a long notice period, but in some companies, you’ll pretty much have to turn in your laptop and collect your things right after turning in your two weeks.

      Good luck in grad school!

    2. fposte*

      Severance is highly unlikely, but that’s governed by your employer’s policies, so you would have access to that information.

      UI varies by location, so I’d go for the “it couldn’t hurt” approach and apply.

      And what they did sucks, because it’s a real benefit to the employer to have a longer notice time and you shouldn’t be punished for being generous.

    3. ArtK*

      For the future, whenever you give notice, be prepared to be walked out of the building immediately after. It happens enough that planning for it is important. I know that you wanted to be nice, but it’s clearly backfired on you. There’s nothing you can do about the current situation, sadly.

      1. 2nd shift*

        Yes this! I’ve worked at places where walking people out the same day as their notice was policy.

    4. Fiddlesticks*

      Some companies are really aggressive about getting leavers out the door as quickly as possible. When I quit my job at a company with this kind of policy, my path out the door was literally conference room to resign to my manager > HR for exit interview escorted by manager > out the front door of the building, never to return hahahahahha!

      In my case, though I was “released” day of, I was paid for my notice period, so you may not even need to worry about the unemployment, but it would be worth a call to your company’s HR department for clarification, as they should be able to provide some details.

      Congrats and good luck in grad school!

  191. Nacho*

    My job’s in the middle of a massive reorganization. My role and another role that does similar, but still different, things are being combined into one, which means we’re about to take on a LOT of extra responsibilities (with no increase in pay, of course). My boss is usually pretty nice, but whenever anybody points out that both teams are about to change drastically in ways we were never told when we took these jobs, she tells us that we signed up to do whatever the company wants us to do, and if we don’t like it we can quit. Is there any way to talk to her about maybe being a little more respectful of the fact that not all of us are ecstatic about these changes?

    1. fposte*

      Ugh. Not pleasant to hear, I’m sure, but I’m not seeing that as a useful thing to raise to a manager, either. Can you clarify why people are pointing out to her that these jobs are going to change drastically in the first place, since it seems like she already knows this? I can’t tell if this is a stressed manager dealing with her own expectations for role change who’s hearing “But that’s different!” too many times or if this is somebody making sure she’s understood that she’s to arrive at 4 am instead of 8 as the CEO’s email indicates.

      The one thing I can think of is to talk to her about the possibility of her working more closely with the group to meet this challenge as effectively as possible. That’s a way to turn “This is hard” into something managerially actionable rather than asking her to take a different tone.

      1. RVA Cat*

        Maybe ask for help in prioritizing all of the tasks – especially the new ones, as you don’t have as much context for their relative importance?

    2. periwinkle*

      Oh good grief, the next thing your boss will say is “you should be grateful you have a job.”

      My whole function is in the midst of a massive reorganization, with some roles vanishing and others changing. In my division, many of the old roles are simply vaporized and replaced with new ones; the basic overarching responsibilities are the same but almost everything about how they’re accomplished is changing. The managers in my chain of command have been as sensitive and transparent as they can be because they know we’re all freaked out.

      What she may be hearing now when people say “this isn’t what we signed up for” is “change is scary, I don’t wanna do it,” especially if this is raised repeatedly. Perhaps you could shift the conversation by asking her to discuss with the combined team how she envisions this reconfigured role, her expectations of people in the role, what the organization expects of her team, and what concrete steps the whole team (not just her) can take to ease the transition and get everyone set up for success.

      I’ve noticed that in our division, people who have been actively involved in developing/documenting the new processes are very positive about the change happening. Those who have not gotten involved are pessimistic, fearful, resistant, and otherwise not ready to adapt – because they don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes. Perhaps if the people in the combined roles can be involved in determining workflows and streamlining processes, everyone (including your manager) would feel more prepared for the change.

  192. HannahS*

    A few weeks ago, I wrote in about a peer of mine, Fergus (link to original comment in my name, if I’ve done this right). TL;DR: We’re in a medical school seminar course that requires us to give each other constructive feedback midway through and at the end of the course. A few weeks ago, I suggested that he cut down on needling the group for constant positive reinforcement (although I phrased it more gently). He sent me a tempter tantrum of an email, copied to our professor, about how I wasn’t showing him the respect he deserves, because he’s so much more mature than everyone else, etc. Then, he gave me the sulky silent treatment for a few days, and someone in our group told me Fergus was complaining about me to him over Facebook. He’s 32, we’re going to be doctors, this is ridiculous. A classmate privately told me that Fergus has some mental health issues, and that he yelled and stormed out of a feedback session with his previous group. That gave me some context to understand that his behaviour is not about me at all, but obviously the way he’s handling himself is not acceptable.

    So! Our end-of-unit evaluation is coming up on Monday, and I have to find something to say to/about him. I’d sure like to tell him that dealing with criticism with maturity and civility is a necessary part of professionalism, but I’m not sure it’s fair to allude to a mostly-private conflict in front of my other group members. I don’t know how to unequivocally let him know how egregious his behaviour is while still being professional myself. Any ideas for scripts?

    1. ArtK*

      If he’s copied your professor and is griping about you on FB, it’s not private at all. You can call him out and still be professional. “As I’m sure you’re aware, Fergus, dealing with criticism from colleagues is part of the job. Some of our interactions have been unpleasant.”
      Honestly, it sounds as if this is not a good profession for him if he’s going to fly off the handle like that. I can’t imagine what his residency is going to be like — adding extreme stress and fatigue to an already fragile ego is going to be a disaster.

      1. HannahS*

        Oh wow, it hadn’t occurred to me at all that I could just frankly say that! SUCH a good suggestion, thanks.

      2. MechanicalPencil*

        Yeah…if he copied your prof on that email he’s already removed the need for privacy. I see your point that your groupmate told you info in confidence, but even removing that, you do have a leg to stand on. It’s not even criticism from solely colleagues — patients will push back too. “Are you sure this is the right course? My understanding is that this treatment is generally used for…” or “My uncle took Prescriptionium when he had these symptoms, why aren’t you giving me that?”. Fergus will need to know how to react professionally to people from both a peer standpoint and a doctor/patient standpoint. He has no chill right now, as you know. I like ArtK’s script, mostly because I can’t arrive at anything better right now. Where’s fposte when we need her?

    2. WellRed*

      Yeah, I remember this. I also don’t think it’s private and even if it was, I guarantee others have had similar issues. Both of your posts on this have struck me as calm and reasonable and as long as you rehearse ahead if time, I imagine you will be professional. Fergus, OTOH, may not.

    3. Thlayli*

      What pp said. He is the one who has made it public not you. I think you have a duty to his future patients and coworkers to be totally honest about his behaviour. Write it all down and read out the facts of what he did calmly and clearly. He will probably throw another tantrum and hopefully this will be included in his final evaluation. This man should not be treating patients.

      1. HannahS*

        I completely agree. It makes me so mad that he took a spot at one of the best schools in the country that someone else could have filled so much better.

      1. HannahS*

        Yes, thank goodness! And the class is large enough that it’s unlikely we’ll ever have be in close proximity again.

  193. Irish Em*

    So, my doctor is *finally* listening to me about my chronic pain issues (four years later, but oh, well) and I am on my way to getting a proper diagnosis of fibromyalgia, which is SUCH a relief to me. Unfortunately I have been having staggering levels of “fibro brain fog” and have literally forgotten entire conversations with new members/clients. I have begun writing down every conversation that results in a question for my manager because I WILL forget to pass them on otherwise, but what about the small conversations/tasks that I need to remember to do and keep dropping the ball on? Any advice for someone just muddling her way into the world of fibro-at-work?

    Also, my contract ends in May, and I’m debating how much job searching I need to be doing because I want to get my diagnosis official and decide with my doc if I stay part-time and get some disability assistance from the Social Welfare (because honestly I dread the idea of a 40 hour week). How do I broach the topic of having a chronic invisible disability with a potential employer? I will be looking at benefits packages in particular to see what companies/jobs would suit me in my current condition, but I don’t know how or when to ask for accommodations.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Re: remembering tasks – I always carry a notepad with me and take notes no matter what. I don’t have fibromyalgia, but I do frequently forget things so I just make it a habit to write EVERYTHING down (this was especially essential during my daughter’s first year when I was very sleep deprived). I also keep my tasks in OneNote on my computer – and you don’t need that or anything fancier than a regular Word doc – but I find that transferring everything to a digital version helps me keep it better organized, and also legible. I like OneNote because I can group it by project, or person, or whatever. I have a group of notes for my big project, a group for my team meetings, a group for my boss, etc.

    2. HannahS*

      I have fibro, too! *gentle fist-tap of solidarity*
      When I was having trouble forgetting things, I kept a List. This was separate from my agenda; just a plain piece of 8.5×11 paper that got folded into my pocket along with a pen at all times. I wrote everything down. I started saying to people, “I’d better write this down! If I don’t, it’ll be in one ear and out the other, but if it gets on the List it gets done.” That way, it sounded more like the quirk of an organized person.

      I can’t speak to American disability laws, but I would say, in general, don’t disclose until you’re hired, and then give only the minimum amount of information required. Personally, I find dealing with others’ Opinions on chronic pain utterly exhausting (why yes, I have heard of yoga, thank you) so I generally just tell people I have joint problems. Which, nowadays, is primarily how my fibro manifests, so it’s true, and hereabouts they aren’t legally entitled to know the exact nature of my diagnosis. It’s also somehow less obviously vague to say, “I have trouble with my [body part/system] so it’s hard for me to [task],” rather than, “I have an…illness,” because people don’t usually say that unless they’re deliberately not telling stuff. Which I’m not, but I prefer that people not notice :p

      The most important thing I’ve found in asking for accommodation is knowing what accommodation I need. Sometimes, are really taken aback by an apparently healthy person needing stuff, and even if they’re good folk they can get awkward and they might don’t know what to do or think. I find being matter of fact is best. I say things like, “Sometimes, I have trouble with my grip, so writing by hand for prolonged periods of time is hard. Could I use a computer for this instead?” (We’re in Canada, so being that polite does, in fact, convey that I’m not really asking, I’m telling.) That wasn’t an initial conversation, of course, but asking for accommodation.

      1. Irish Em*

        Woo! *gentle fist taps back*

        I have a similar mantra for when I’m writing down the smallest requests (so many “oh, sure you don’t need to write it in The Book, you can just say it to Boss Lady when you see her!” Me, to myself, “yeah, two chances of my remembering, slim to none” LOL) I just need to expand it to ALL the things, I guess.

        Oh, man the yoga evangelists in my family (let alone the wider world) are exhausting. I’ve actually tried it so I now cut them off with “Tried it. Made it worse. Not happening again.” The look of disbelief on my awful aunty’s face when I contradicted her on the benefits of *shudder* Hot Yoga was worth losing the social capital with her.

        That politeness would certainly work here in Ireland, too. I’ll have to suss out what does and doesn’t work when looking for accommodations. (Mind you, it took WEEKS of repeated pestering for Boss Lady to get the stairwell clear, and that was a FHS issue not an individual accommodation, so I guess these things will take time.)

        Thank you for the advice!

    3. Izzy Legal*

      First, I’m glad (all things considered) you have a diagnosis so can properly address this health concern.

      I’m going to tackle the how-to-work with a health issue question. I carry two notebooks. One is the ‘write everything down/take notes’ notebook. The other is the to-do notebook. It’s easy to get caught in a meeting or conversation and all of sudden, it goes from informational/etc to a ‘here’s a task/to-do item.’ The task can get lost in the shuffle of notes and be glossed over. But if there’s a ‘to-do’ notebook – especially with tearable pages, checklist format, etc, it can be easier to manage.

      Good luck!

      2. Irish Em*

        I’ll have to make sure I don’t get the two mixed up, lol!

        I’ve been telling and telling them for years, so it’s nice to actually have a medical professional actually listen to me. *sigh*

    4. Thlayli*

      honestly you are probably better off just applying for part time jobs and not even mentioning your disability until after you get an offer – and even then only mention it if you have to.

      Good luck.

    5. LNLN*

      Have you checked the Job Accommodation Network (JAN) for ideas on addressing the issues you are having? It is a great resource even if you are not actually requesting a workplace accommodation. Easy to google!

  194. NW Mossy*

    So this has been a Heads Will Roll week at work – first one we’ve had in some time. First a high-mucky-mucky in Llama Sales got the chop (not unexpected, given his unusually low profile and reporting line changes a few months ago), and now I just got an email that a manager in Llama Leading is “no longer with the company.” Makes me relieved that my own boss has been going out of her way to let me know that she’s really pleased with me and my team’s work right now!

  195. Onanon*

    Is this a red flag? I started a new job a couple of months ago (yay!) and my new boss wanted me in asap for training before year end… and then went on holiday three days later without giving me any kind of training at all. Then, the last new starter left abruptly – she handed in her notice after being off sick for six weeks, saying she couldn’t deal with the pressure and the lack of support, then halfway through her notice just got up and left because the manager had given her month end to do and no support. And I mean, got up and left, leaving her belongings behind. The manager is pretty indignant over it all but I’m pretty sure the woman didn’t leave for no reason.

    Should I start being concerned?

    1. ArtK*

      To me, it sounds like a red flag, with a bull charging up behind it.

      How is your job right now? Are you getting the support/training you need? If the answer to that is “no” then this goes from “concerned” to “job hunting.”

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      If you don’t feel you’re getting enough support/training, what’s management’s response when you specifically ask for more of it? If your manager is just pretty bad, but can get it together for clear requests, well – it’s probably salvageable as long you are committed to advocating for yourself and being explicit about what you need. If asking for support or training gets you a huge wall of NOPE or even anger – then you may need to be job searching, because your manager is actually terrible.

    3. Wrench Turner*

      You owe your boss a chat with your concerns about YOUR not being trained/supported sufficiently. An attitude of “I want to do good by you, by the company, but I need these tools.” goes a long way to assuage grumpy bosses. Get measurable goals from them, and then if it looks like they just won’t follow through, be sure to grab your belongings on the way out.

  196. Bigglesworth*

    Hey all! I’m applying to my first series of summer Law jobs. My career services people told me to wait until February or March to start applying and want to me completely revamp my resume. I’m glad I didn’t follow the first portion of advice, but I’m beginning to debate if I should follow the second portion either. They’re recommending that I switch my bullet points to a paragraph style resume and remove the periods at the end of each bullet point. Are these things to do with legal resumes? I’ve heard both sides and was wondering what you all thought.

    I should also mention that I’m not a strong legal writer based on my legal writing grade, but the rest of my grades or at or above average. I just don’t think I understood my writing fellow’s teaching style and that effected my grades. Is there any help or resources available for someone who struggles in this area?

  197. Precisely*

    I recently took a few days off to attend a funeral (my grandfather’s) I worked the week between his passing and attending the funeral and only mentioned my loss to my manager, and his manager as well as one or two co-workers who were going to be picking up some tasks for me when I was out of the office. I am distraught over this loss but wanted to maintain professionalism in the office. The day I returned to work (when most of my team thought I had just taken a long weekend) I broke down in tears when it was my turn to speak in our daily stand-up meeting. I grabbed my things and exited the room but I’m mortified. I feel like I should have been more realistic about when I would be able to return to work. My boss and the rest of the team are being incredibly kind and supportive (I worked from home for the rest of the week, and my manager would have approved time off if I requested it) I’m trying to figure out how/if I should apologize for my unprofessional outburst without drawing further attention to it.

    1. Anon Anon*

      I don’t think you need to apologize. If you behave professionally the rest of the time, people get that losing someone particularly close to you means that sometimes you have emotional moments. And if I was in your co-workers and boss’s position, I would feel very awkward receiving an apology from you, when all I’d want to know is that you were doing better.

      And I’m really sorry for your loss.

    2. Kate*

      I agree with Anon Anon. It’s great to be professional, but at the end of the day we are all human. It seems like your co-workers realize this.

      I’m so sorry for your loss.

    3. Wrench Turner*

      Grief and mourning are very hard in ways we cannot predict. We’re not machines. If your coworkers and boss are understanding, that is itself enough. Just do your best. That, too, is enough.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Email to coworkers: I apologize for crying at the meeting. Even though I thought I was okay to come back to work after my grandfather’s funeral, I was not. Thank you so much for your understanding and support.

      I have found that reasonable people understand when you give them some context. Plus the last sentence tells them what you expect (hope) from them.

      If necessary, you can add something like: this is very difficult for me to talk about. Thank you for giving me the space to deal with this without having to talk about it at work. Work is my safe space from these emotional difficulties.

  198. Anon right now*

    I have a question about the best way to approach superiors or a colleague over a long-term situation involving extra work:

    I work in academia. I have a colleague with elderly dogs who, last semester, required a lot of class coverage and other favors (like proctoring tests for students) because her dogs were sick and she needed to take them to the vet, or go home and check on them/walk them/etc. I covered her then without complaint, because I assumed it would be a temporary situation. However, she’s now announced she will need coverage this semester because her dogs are still sick and wants me to cover an evening class. Doing that would actually cost me a lot of money, as it’s at a time when public transit in the area stops running and I would need to take a cab home every evening I covered it; I can’t drive. The colleague also said she “could see it” continuing all summer and into the fall. I don’t normally teach during the summer, but she wants me to cover the class she would be teaching “most of the time” if her dogs are sick.

    Administration is absolutely in love with this colleague and has told her she can do whatever she wants. I am not being paid extra for this and I find myself actually no longer giving a crap about my these dogs. How do I approach this in a way that ends the situation while preserving a professional relationship?

    1. Anon Anon*

      I think all you need to say is unfortunately you won’t be able to cover these classes. If the administration thinks she’s so amazing, they will either find someone else, or they will pay for an adjunct (or offer a permanent faculty member more money to teach those classes).

      And the reality is, even putting the financial hardship aside, you have to focus on teaching your own classes, your own scholarship, and your own committee work. You’ve done your fair share of coverage. Let them find someone else.

      1. Anon right now*

        Thanks, Anon Anon. I feel a little better than I did. I got the e-mail from her and was freaking out about it since I was calculating cab costs and sunk time and wrestling with the “I don’t CARE about your dogs, you haven’t even said thanks once” snarky impulse that, luckily, I can control, so I didn’t reply to the e-mail yet.

        I understand that she’s upset and grieving, but I’m tired of the high-handed way she just assumed I’d jump at her command. We’re peers with exactly the same level of seniority, and she’s always talking about how she just can’t make meetings or deadlines because she’s so busy with committees/scholarship/teaching, so I really resent that she evidently thinks my time is so much less important than hers. I’ll just send the e-mail with your line about it being unfortunate. Thanks again.

    2. KayEss*

      This seems like a really similar situation to the letter this week about the person who would no longer be able to/no longer wanted to give their disabled coworker rides to work. It was in the multi-letter post on the 6th, and a lot of Alison’s advice and the comments apply–“I’m sorry, but my circumstances have changed and I won’t be able to cover any extra evening classes this term or going forward.”

      1. Anon right now*

        Yeah, I saw that one. Just didn’t think I’d be in a situation so similar right away!

        But it’s a good suggestion to go back and read it again. Thanks.

        1. KayEss*

          Also FWIW, I would be 110% done with her dogs if I was in your position. I’d sympathetically cover for a colleague’s need to make an emergency vet trip or two, but months? And then going on through summer and into the fall (which sounds like it would be close to a full year)?

          I realize people love their pets, and maybe this makes me heartless, but I think that if her dogs are that sick she needs to be either evaluating their true quality of life and possibly arranging for final care, or finding a long-term solution like a dogsitter to care for and monitor them while she’s unavailable. Such as, y’know, while she’s doing the job she’s professionally obligated to do. So don’t feel bad about setting a boundary here. You’ve more than done your part.

          1. Anon right now*

            Yeah, believe me, that’s about where I am. It sounds like multiple, chronic, ongoing health conditions for both dogs + emergencies. I would never say to her, “This is what you should do,” but I do want to!

            And I have a bird I love, but I have to admit I would not ask my colleagues to cover for me while I went home to check on him. Then again, birds don’t tend to have the same kind of health conditions dogs do.

    3. Pollygrammer*

      Can you discuss it first with someone above both of you? Say you’re happy to fill in (in whatever ways you’re actually willing to fill in) but you’re not able to provide coverage evenings or summers, you’re planning to explain that to your colleague, you just wanted to fill them in on the situation first.

      1. Anon right now*

        The administration sent a lot of “e-mails of support” last year about how whatever she wants to do is totally fine with them, and “they urge us to support her in this time of grief and transition.” (Transition that does not seem to be happening…) She gets very high teaching evaluations and her classes always fill up, so I don’t think talking with them will work. I have one colleague who didn’t cover for her because she has a child and made it flatly clear that taking on extra work that would mean missing times to pick up her child at daycare and so on for the sake of someone else’s dogs was not going to happen. The administration was vocally unhappy with that colleague. “But she’s grieving!” was the usual response.

        OTOH, nothing actually happened to my colleague-with-a-child professionally, and I see now that two other people in my department have responded to the e-mail chain sent by colleague-who-needs-coverage saying they won’t be able to do it, either. So at least this semester, I’m part of a united group pushing back.

    4. Lissa*

      I’m not clear on how things work exactly but is that normal, to have to cover someone else’s classes at time you wouldn’t normally be working with no compensation? You’re not being paid extra, so does that mean you’re essentially working for free on top of your other classes? Or do you get paid for the class you teach but not extra for it being unexpected?

      I agree with the others, definitely say you can’t do it! I think the only advice I’d give is to not bring up the dogs, or the fact that you are sick of hearing about them (I agree with you but…) I mean, i wouldn’t be doing extra work for free regardless if it was dogs, cats, kids, the Pope etc….

      1. Anon right now*

        No, definitely not normal. The only remotely similar situation that happened before was when someone died in the middle of the semester and people scrambled to cover her classes. We are working for free on top of our other classes. Meanwhile, she gets paid to spend time sitting at home with her dogs and mesmerizing the administration. (It is so freaking weird how many e-mails they send about her and her great work and how many times they’ve stopped me and other people in the middle of the hall to say, “[Colleague with dogs] is such a wonderful person!”)

        Oh, no, I wouldn’t bring up the dogs. Those are only my snarky thoughts. The main reason they’re at the top of my “never-want-to-hear-about-again” list is how much time the colleague spent using them to justify her extensive absences and play “My burden is greater than yours” last semester.

    5. Thlayli*

      It sounds like you haven’t actually been ordered to do this by your boss but are just being encouraged to help out. So I think you will be on pretty safe ground to push back and say you aren’t available to do x this semester/summer. If you are still willing to do y then offer to do y; that will keep the professional relationship in good nick, especially since it sounds like you might be the only person doing anything at all.

      FYI your administration are a-holes for the way they treated the parent. Their reaction amounts to suggesting that someone should leave their kid in daycare longer then they need to, in order to allow someone else to spend time with an animal. Unbelievable.

      1. Anon right now*

        Yeah, I offered to proctor makeup tests during my office hours; that’s all I’m willing or able to do. That e-mail she sent actually ASSIGNED people to various things, like, “Anon right now, I need you to cover my evening class. Colleague-with-tenure, you’ll take my early morning class…” when, uh, a) asshole behavior and b) she didn’t even check to see if we could. Colleague-with-tenure has an early morning class at the same time, for example. No, he’s not going to cancel his class or somehow combine them so she can take the dogs for walkies.

        And yeah, I agree. They’re being assholes in general, acting like the fact that my colleague gets high teaching evaluations and full classes and does workshops for people means that she can do no wrong and she’s the only one whose time and commitments matter. No, your children are less important than her precious doggie animgels!

  199. Pathfinder Ryder*

    Anyone have tips on feeling safe at work again after a violent incident in the workplace? My ward had one this week (luckily no one was injured) and I have been quietly seething over the lack of a security measure that every other ward has and over all the red flags that had been treated as orange by higher ups before it happened. (I mean, I also raised our lack of that security measure with my managers, for the third time since we first opened without it and since another violent incident some months ago, and this time one manager escalated it to health and safety who agreed that we really should have it, but now I’m once again waiting for this to be installed.)

    1. Wrench Turner*

      This is hard, I’m sorry. Usually you’re lucky enough to be a squeaky wheel and then your safety issues get addressed before something actually happens. At least there is some progress on the horizon.

      I’d be upfront with your bosses (and their bosses if necessary) and say “I don’t feel safe here. We had a security incident I warned about, and until these measures are actually put in place, effectively nothing has changed. What concrete things can be done right now -like new guard postings, etc. to make it more safe here, or can I be transferred to different duty until the fix is actually in.”

    2. Anono-me*

      If you don’t feel physically safe, because of some freak occurrence, then yes you need to work on your feelings.

      However, if you don’t feel physically safe because you are in a actual physically dangerous environment, then you need to work on the actual dangers (or find a way to leave the environment or learn how to live as safely as possible in an unsafe environment).

      It sounds like you have valid safety concerns that need to be addressed before you will be safe.

    3. Triple Anon*

      Go forth and do something about it. If you can’t speak out at work, what are your options outside of work? Does your field or industry have a community you could reach out to? Could you blog? Even anonymously? I would identify the key issues and work to change them.

      But if you can speak up at work, I would do that. And be matter of fact about it. “Until X measures are in place, our safety will continue to be at risk. When will things change? What is the plan for the interim? Are any temporary precautions in place until we can adopt XYZ?”

      Good luck with everything. It sounds like a very difficult situation to be in.

  200. Cats and Dogs*

    I have a coworker Charlotte with mental health issues. I also have mental health issues, so I empathize. I both understand and appreciate that she has some form of depression. She doesn’t let it influence her work, but she does let it influence her attitude.

    To catch everyone up, I am not her boss, I’m her colleague. But our bosses are currently gone (1 on maternity leave, 1 quit). So until boss 1 returns from leave, I’m in defacto charge.

    Charlotte has a tendency to feel left out, regardless of whether it’s her project or not. She has a tendency to assume that our other colleague (Samantha) is getting all the “good” assignments. When in truth Samantha is getting the hard assignments, because she’s more senior. Today, during a training, Samantha couldn’t attend due to a last minute work request. Charlotte made a snarky comment about how I didn’t tell her about Samantha’s project. When Charlotte works on a project she doesn’t like or a person she doesn’t like – it is obvious. Not just to me, but those she works with.

    I’m just tired of both the griping and need for attention. To the point where now I give her a figurative pat on the back and walk away. I know she needs more attention. But, I’m afraid I don’t have it in me to give.

    1. Wrench Turner*

      Bring it up with whoever is in charge above your bosses. The lack of leadership unfairly sits on your shoulders – defacto boss does not a manager make- and someone actually needs to be in charge. Otherwise maybe you, too, should be looking to head toward the door.

  201. miyeritari*

    guess who got a raaaaaaaise

    (it’s me)

    I was psyching myself to negotiate up, but then my boss said “we haven’t done your performance review, so expect that in the next couple of months. we’ll adjust from there.” i will be prepared.

    in my last performance review, I negotiated up and then we settled in the middle. Six weeks later, they called me in and said “Actually, we should have paid you what you originally asked for, based on how much we like you” and bumped me up. Not too shabby, past me.

    Hope other people get some good news this week. <3

    2. Wrench Turner*

      Very well done! It had never occurred to me to negotiate for a raise. I’ve always been told “here is your raise, like it or leave.” sometimes in those terms.

  202. Kate*

    I asked my boss if there were any dates “blacked out” for taking vacation in a certain month. She said no. Now that I requested my days she says she has a problem with them as they are too close to a big campaign. I have already booked my flight. I have all of this over email. I am speaking to her about this on Monday. Any advice?

    1. Weyrwoman*

      Did you ask in writing about the blackout dates? How long ago was that (maybe the campaign thing is newer)? How closely are you involved with the big campaign?

      If you have the initial ask in writing, that receipt may be a useful starting point to say something like “Hey boss, on X date I asked if there were any dates that I needed to be careful of when planning a vacation. Since you said no, I planned and have paid for a vacation from Y to Z. I understand that there is a big campaign around then, but I can [insert stuff you can do before vacay] before I leave so that when I get back I can finish up with [other small things] before the campaign.”

      1. Kate*

        Thank you! This is really helpful! I do have it in writing (I asked via email). In fact, she gave me some dates in March that were “blackout” so I didn’t book for those.

        The campaign isn’t new-it happens yearly so she definitely knew about it. But I will remind her of the date of our email exchange when we talk and come up with some proactive points of what I will do to make sure everything is in order.

        1. zora*

          That sounds good, and I would also add: Is there something I should do differently next time when booking vacation?

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Unfortunately you really shouldn’t have booked your flights before getting the days approved and I think you might need to acknowledge that so she doesn’t think this will set a precedent.

  203. Sled dog mama*

    So my husband is in experiential education, he’s one of the people who comes in to facilitate team building, mostly he works with high school/college age but has been moving into more corporate work recently. They are very big on challenge by choice and only participating at your comfort level and ability. His partner called him today and said “you are not going to believe what I just had to talk a client out of.”

    Two day program for this client (several small groups over two days) and the guy in charge (works for the client) wants to end with a bang and his brilliant idea is…. a flash mob, in the capital building, while the legislature is in session. Boss seriously had to explain to the guy that they would get arrested and that completely aside from the ability to scale that for different ability/challenge levels, having your employees arrested at a work sponsored event was a really bad idea. I wish I was making this up. So now they are trying to figure out something that qualifies as “ending with a bang” and allows for scaling for different ability/challenge levels.

    Anyone seen anything they thought was a cool idea that can be scaled and allow for different participation levels?

    1. Weyrwoman*

      maybe a flashmob in a public park? For which you can get any city/state/etc required permits to do?

    2. Wrench Turner*

      Maybe your local performing arts community has an improv theatre troupe that can work with them for a fun day. Improv helps get people used to working creatively together, teaching the principal of “Yes! And…” or something to that effect. Most improv troupes are funny as heck and can be tuned to be ‘work friendly” if they tend on the spicy side. You don’t have to be good at it, just a willing participant.

    3. KB*

      If you can do a feelings bonfire outside, that’s fun! Or any kind of bonfire. You can either make it on-topic or just yay fire.
      Bubble wrap dance party (different levels of dancing possible)
      Dance party with how-to-survive-a-dance-party instructions (IE, building creative confidence, with adaptations for various abilities )
      Adaptable but active-ish games? (I have to do a spectacle for an event about once a month and active games are some of the most popular things)
      Make something and smash it? I made a cloud out of paper mache and had people put their assumptions about a topic in it and we smashed it to kick of a brainstorm. An on-topic pinata, I guess.

      If you can make it happen, explosions are always fun to say “the thing is done”.

      You could also try some Space Deck things, maybe? http://thespacedeck.com/ (not all work that way, but some work in a group, like Taste Meditation)

  204. Wrench Turner*

    It’s amazing how fast “it will take 2-3 weeks to process your raise” changes to “HR is working on that right now” when you say you won’t come back until it’s done. I’m owed a lot of money. It’s been that kind of day.

    I haven’t quit per say but I’ve made it clear I’m done with the unprofessional behavior, hypocrisy on safety and other double standards. I’m just waiting for a written offer from a different place that I had 2 great interviews with and we’re both excited to move forward.

    Out of curiosity, how does your workplace handle something like a raise “effective X date”? Is that the date the raise is submitted for approvals and processing and then you start getting paid more later when it’s all done, or is the approval and processing all done and you start getting paid more on X date?
    Have a good weekend y’all.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      My workplace is really good about it, but when I was new there eons ago, I had a boss who had checked out and retired in place. One year he was many, many weeks late with the paperwork for my review, and hence my raise. I mentioned to the VP in charge of HR that I had missed out on the pay increase because of my boss’ negligence, and the VP told me I’d get the raise retroactively! I think it came out of my boss’ pay, but I can’t be certain.

      Back then, your review and raise were supposed to be effective on the anniversary of the date you were hired, so the pay period that contained your anniversary was the one that saw the increase. Now we have it the same time of year for everyone, and someone who starts 6 months into the fiscal year gets a prorated raise of 50% of the raise they would have gotten any other year. (I think less than 6 months and you don’t get a review or raise.)

    2. Someone else*

      Where I work “effective X date” means starting on X my pay rate increased to whatever. Even if the paperwork didn’t happen until afterward. In fact, I’ve had multiple raises I was told about in, say, August, but was told at the time it was effective the start of fyear (July 1). They spread the back pay over a couple of paychecks, rather than one big lump on the first one.

  205. What the heck*

    Probably nobody will see this, but my job was posted on indeed today. We are a small company and I’m the only one in my position. There is not enough work for a second person… they can’t even keep me busy. I’m definitely not getting a promotion, as I’ve only been there 3 months. So, yeah, I’m bummed.

    1. Wrench Turner*

      Bring it up with your boss right away. “Hey, this is really awkward but I got an alert saying this job was posted that sounds a heck of a lot like mine. Know anything about it?” Saying you got an alert sounds a lot better than “I was browsing the Help Wanted ads, and…”

      1. What the heck*

        When I asked him about it, he said indeed was posting random ads and charging them for them. Huh? He was trying to brush me off, I gauged how far I could push without triggering an actual firing and then retreated. Bummer for my weekend mood, but what can I do? Just start applying to other jobs. They can’t fault me for it. He did ask me how I found it, I said a friend saw it. Actually, I searched my company name on a hunch and there it was. It had been posted for three hours. What prompted the hunch? Four things happened this week that told me my job was in danger.

    3. Effie, who is pondering*

      :( On the bright side, 3 months isn’t a huge resume gap if you end up needing to leave this job off your resume?

      1. What the heck*

        Feels like a huge gap to me. :( I’ve never been fired and only had a few week gap once when I had cash in the bank and could comfortably take my time finding the next opportunity. As long as I find a job quickly, I may end up leaving it off in the future. But for now, I don’t see how I can not include it. What if someone asks what I’ve been doing for the past three months. To make matters worse, I left my last job for this one, so that would have to be another story I’d have to invent. :(

        1. Betsy*

          I agree that three months is really nothing. Plenty of people take off three months to to travel or to care for an elderly relative, or just to take some time off between jobs.

  206. nep*

    Just saw an ad on Indeed — every single aspect of this job sounds perfect. And everything I see about the company makes me want to work for them even more. This has boosted my job-search mood a bit; just when I think I’ll never see any more openings that seem suitable, something pops up to remind me I’ve got to just keep looking and put myself out there. Won’t get my hopes up about this particular one — Just heartened to be reminded that decent prospects will continue to come up; I’ve just got to nail it one of these times.
    I’ll certainly be working on my letter and resume for this position over the weekend.

    1. KayEss*

      I’m a strong supporter of the oxford/serial comma, but that seems like a stretch to me… the sentence in question doesn’t make grammatical sense if you assume the final two items in the list are only one, because then the list itself lacks a conjunction. But I assume the legal case itself is more complicated than just “what is the more likely meaning of this sentence.”

      That, or I’ve spent too much time in places that had to use AP style.

    2. nep*

      Love this. That case gets cited a lot in debates over the Oxford comma.
      Without the serial comma, vague.
      In my view, though, the revised version should have used commas instead of semi-colons.
      (I’m a big fan of the Oxford comma.)

  208. Banana*

    I’m probably too late to the game, but when does an individual situation of “That one female happens to make less than her three male colleagues” rise to the level of an official complaint of inequality?

    I recently found out that there was a bit of a kerfuffle about my pay rate in relation to my colleague. My colleague and I have the same job, the same education, the same amount of experience, but he was hired one year after I was. The way that raises have been done has lead me to believe that we were being treated exactly equally, which I was OK with. We are both high performers. I can’t think of any reason why he would get a higher merit raise than I would–in fact, in my opinion, I think I work a little harder and do a little better than he does. But now I come to find out that he may be making more than I do, or at least the same exact amount. If we were being treated equally, he would be making a little less than I would, since he has not been here as long. This would mean at some point, he received a higher raise than I did.

    This is coupled with the fact that all of my male colleagues received promotions more quickly than I did. When I pointed this out, I was told that this was for a bunch of reasons like bad luck timing for me and other reasons that had nothing to do with me, and it was just a coincidence that it was happening to me, the only female.

    I get glowing performance reviews (and not all of my colleagues do), so I’m really aggravated that it might be the case that not only is my climb up the ladder the slowest of the four of us, my pay is also the relative lowest.

    Do I have a case with HR if it turns out this guy is making the same amount as I am? I feel like my sample size is really small, and the difference is really small–just one years’ raise, really–but on the other hand, there’s no good reason why I should be treated as the worst of the group. I’m not the worst of the group. I’m just the only female.

    1. Effie, who is pondering*

      Ugh, that sounds really aggravating. I have no advice, just want to give you some commiseration.

      From my not-very-experienced POV, I don’t think it would hurt to point out that if all things are equal you should be making a bit more than Newer Guy. See how they excuse that.

    2. Thlayli*

      I would raise this with your manager. Maybe frame it like “it’s in the company’s interests to avoid any appearance of inequality” if he gives you the line about it all being just bad luck and timing and so on. It sounds like it’s been consistent over a few years so it can’t all be bad luck and timing.

      It may be a case of the age-old men getting more because they ask for more and women don’t.

      1. Banana*

        I definitely know that it is not because the other men asked and I didn’t. I HAVE asked. I’ve brought up my pay/lack of promotions a number of times. I’ve laid out cases for an increase in these. What little I’ve gotten has been because I’ve fought for it. I know that this hasn’t been the case with my male coworkers.

        1. Thlayli*

          Hmmm, this is sounding more and more like straight up intentional discrimination. I actually think you should go straight to HR rather than to your boss. And yes I do think you have a case.

  209. Effie, who is pondering*

    Interns who treat their managers well and treat their peers/admins with less respect/disrespect…that’s bad, right?

    My day job involves supporting my company’s intern program as the program admin. I coordinate the program and as-needed support the managers. My boss and the program managers made it very clear to me that I do NOT support the interns.

    I could use a little perspective – there are a few interns that rub me the wrong way. I’m making allowances for them being new to the workforce, that this is a good time for training, that I’m not in a place to give them feedback, etc etc. I feel comfortable letting their managers (the program managers) know when something egregious happens but I don’t feel quite right letting them know about a pattern of low-level disrespect because I can’t pinpoint any one big thing, it’s an overall feeling. Does that make sense?

    There’s a few interns in particular who are respectful to the point of obsequious with the program managers, their trainers, etc (anyone they perceive to be “higher” up I guess) and turn around and treat their fellow interns and me…differently. I’ve seen it happen literally. As in they were speaking with a manager and turned around to talk to me and there’s an attitude 180 complete with facial expression change (pleasant to…not)!

    Is this just something I should ignore? Or should I bring it up to the program managers in a “head’s-up” kinda way? Is there a way to nip this kind of behavior in the bud? Even if there is, am I even in a position to do so?

    I’d love to get some perspective on this (as I see I said above :P)

    1. Claire Elise Alverne Robinson*

      I am not a manager, so I can’t offer too much perspective from that end, but I did complete something like 6 internships/apprenticeships in my field and can confidently say that what you’re describing is 100% bad, bad, bad. I had a peer who was like this during one of my apprenticeships – he would coast at the office on his charm and deference to his manager, and then be exceptionally rude and self-important “at home” in intern housing. I did not like him and would not work with him again if I had the chance. It is not good for this behavior to go un-remarked-upon, especially with people who are new to the workplace. Consider it your chance to stop assholes in their tracks!

      I’m not sure how to nip it in the bud, except perhaps to go to their managers (with a couple of very specific, documented examples) and say something like ” I’ve noticed that Scooter the Intern speaks to me and his peers in a very disrespectful manner when he’s not being observed by a supervisor. For example, last week after the company meeting, [insert example here.] I realize you may not be aware of this, since he’s always very pleasant in your interactions, but it’s a behavior I’ve definitely noticed and want to make sure you’re aware of as their manager. I worry that this is negatively impacting our workplace culture and want to give Scooter a chance to fix the problem before it gets worse.” Then leave it in the manager’s hands. This may ultimately just be one of Scooter’s character flaws, so probably this wouldn’t fix the problem long-term. However, as long as they keep it buttoned up at work, I don’t see the problem for your company.

      1. Effie, who is pondering*

        Thanks for your detailed response! I actually did say something similar to both my boss and one of the program managers since they asked me for my feedback. The thing is that I soft-pedaled – I said, it’s still early, maybe they’re still settling in, maybe it’ll go away so let’s just keep an eye on it.

        Funny thing – right after I said that Intern only does this around peers and me and definitely NOT in front of the managers, the program manager said “They’ve never acted that way around me!” in surprise and I was like, yes, that’s my point. I think that means that they know better. Or it could just be nervousness around “higher ups” that cause extreme politeness. :/

        1. Thlayli*

          I think you should raise it again. Try to get some specific examples like the one with the complete change in facial expression. That sounds like something from a horror movie about a sociopath or something!

    2. Banana*

      I think it is perfectly reasonable to call them out in the moment. It’s hard to tell exactly what the problem is with their behavior from your comment, but let’s say they are doing something like calling you “bi**h” in a sort-of-friendly way they might refer to each other jokingly.

      “Please don’t refer to me that way. It is very unprofessional in this office.” Is a perfectly reasonable thing to say to them yourself regardless of whether or not you supervise them. This isn’t about their work, this is about their behavior towards you, so you automatically are in a position to say something about it.

      1. Effie, who is pondering*

        Hm, yeah, but they don’t say bad things per se. It’s the attitude, the tone of voice, and the expression – it’s very clear (to me) that I’m not at a perceived level of respect in their opinion. That’s why I’m second-guessing myself.

        I have no problem calling out in-your-face bad behavior, especially since my evening job is a dance instructor. But not even a judge can tell you to apologize for tone, can they? :/

  210. C.C.*

    Well, I thought I could stick it out a bit longer in my dream job, but it may be time to bail, and I hope you can help me sort all this out! One of my coworkers, “Suzie”, has recently gotten a title bump and been put in charge of supervising everyone’s work in my shop (about 10-15 people depending on the workload). Her technical skills are fine (not great, but fine), but she’s a micromanager who often speaks condescendingly to people on her team, and assumes she knows more than anyone else because she has a master’s degree. In fact, when I first started working there and was experiencing a really sharp learning curve, Suzie berated me so harshly that I cried in the bathroom after work one day. I get that there’s a struggle between being hands-off and making sure that works gets done the right way the first time, especially for newer managers, but there’s no need to snap at people or talk to them like they are elementary schoolers. In short, she’s on a bit of a power trip right now. Our department head loves her because they are both perfectionists who have the same management philosophy, so past complaints about her behavior have not resulting in meaningful change from Suzie.

    This is on top of management at my company:
    – Yelling at everyone for forgetting to turn in their paper (! who still uses paper?!) timesheets on time on a Friday, and threatening to delay processing payroll for the next week (this is the first I’ve heard of people’s occasional forgetfulness being a problem);
    – F***ing up the FMLA paperwork for several people who took pre-approved, unpaid leave for health reasons, therefore jeopardizing their health insurance coverage;
    – Eliminating on-campus parking privileges for all but a few older/disabled employees, and moving everyone else to an unlit parking lot two blocks away;
    – Fighting tooth and nail to keep us from getting a $1/hr raise, spread out over three years;
    – Laying us off for a whole month right before Christmas.

    Those of us who are younger all have one foot out the door and would all jump ship in a second if a better opportunity presented itself, but we still kick ass and take names doing what we do. Problem is, there are only three companies in town who employ people in our field full-time. One’s an awesome place to work but is rarely hiring, and the other pays worse and has worse working conditions than our current employers. On the bright side, this year we’ve got an exciting new project to work on that is coming up next spring, and the new-er floor supervisor (she’s been there just about a year) is a million times better than anyone else who’s been in that role in the 3.5 years I’ve been here – warm and competent, strong technical skills, good at giving constructive criticism and shutting down toxic BS that other people like to engage in.

    What do you think? Try and stick it out, hope that the new Micromanager-in-Chief will learn to chill out a bit, and focus on the good parts of my job? Approach my awesome floor manager and say “Look, now that she’s suddenly and arbitrarily in charge of all of us, Suzie needs to stop being an asshole?” Or is it time to enroll in that evening paralegal class I’ve been eyeing for the past few years? I love this field and don’t want to leave it, which is why I’ve been putting up with the lower pay, nonexistent benefits, and general BS from my company for years. I’d like for this to not be the final straw. Help?

    1. Effie, who is pondering*

      I really think it’s time to go. Your overall work environment sounds terrible and not worth it at all. I think it’s unlikely that enough things will change for the better because these are not small annoyances you’re talking about – it sounds like a band-aid solution for an oozing pore problem. Let the sunk costs and emotional investment go, and walk away before you’re burned out. I’m sorry :/

      1. CC*

        Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. You know, seeing it all written out in black and white really makes it clear how messed up parts of my workplace culture are. Time to brush up that resume, I guess :/

        1. Effie, who is pondering*

          You are most welcome! One more thing – I think it would be fine for you to go to your awesome floor manager about Suzie since there’s not point in being as miserable as possible on your way out :) Just keep in mind that even if she is able to limit Suzie’s nastiness, it’s still a temp pain relief instead of a long-term cure and you should try to get out regardless.

          Best of luck to you!

  211. nep*

    Just wondering about others’ reading habits for this work open thread — Many people when posting late-ish write things like ‘late here — hope this will get read.’ Do you look through the thread on Saturday? (It’s dated for two days…just wondering how many people continue to look for new content on Saturday.)

    1. Fashionably Challenged*

      Good question! For me, I’m on US pacific time and I tend to not have time to look at the thread until Friday evening at the earliest, so I’ve been that “late here” person before (including today, though implied). If there are posts I’m interested in, I’ll return on Saturday to see if there have been more additions or developments (or responses to my late Friday post).

    3. Thlayli*

      It depends on time I have. Some weeks I don’t look at the thread at all. This week I’m sick in bed so I’ve read all the initial comments (and sub comments on ones I am interested in/think i can contribute to).

      I know from experience trading the whole thing and commenting on everything I’m interester in can take a few hours If i go to it on a Saturday, so I sometimes will set a limit of say 20 mins for myself if I just have a little time. Sometimes I start from the bottom as there are less sub-comments there and more chance to actually contribute to the OPs issue instead of repeating what others have said.

      1. Thlayli*

        Ok I definitely proofread the whole comment this time, so either my phone is seriously messed up this week or else I am!

    4. Overeducated*

      I read from the bottom on Friday afternoon/evening or Saturday, it’s the middle comments that I never get to!

    5. Ron McDon*

      Hi! It’s Saturday at 5.30pm for me. I will often read through entirely on Friday evening, then move to the weekend thread on Saturday/Sunday, but if I don’t get to finish reading it on Friday I’ll come back to it on Saturday.

      Sometimes that means I miss getting in on a lengthy thread that I would ordinarily have contributed to had I seeen it before it became so long, but I do like to try and read all the comments on the open threads, even if that takes me a few days.

    7. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I read this thread on Friday, then come back to it on Monday, Tuesday, etc. I feel weird commenting in response to other people’s posts after the weekend is over though. I have no way of knowing if anyone will see it!

  212. Pink & Gray*

    I don’t know if anyone will see this (I’m not in the US, so I’m always sad that the open thread happens when I’m asleep!), but I wanted to ask an industry-related question for a friend. I work in education and have never worked for a for-profit company, so I’m totally useless in this situation!

    I was wondering if anyone on here is in the travel industry, particularly on the tour operator side of the business. I have a friend who started a job at a tour operator about six months ago, and she’s already burning out, so she’s wondering if her experience is an industry-wide norm, or if her company sucks. Basically, she was hired when the company got a new client (a new travel agent in a different country selling tours to our country), so there’s some sense of the way the client works and the product that they want being new and the company hasn’t worked out the kinks yet, and also that they’re still onboarding new people to work for this client. But on the other hand, various people above her seem to have different ideas about what needs to be prioritized, and if she talks to her boss about there not being time to prioritize everything she’s been told to get done by the end of, for example, the week, her boss just tells her to stay later. Most of her coworkers are staying until 10 pm or later and still not getting all the work done, and while she stays late a lot of nights, she was specifically told when she got the job that there would only be overtime during peak season. She’s been working overtime since her training finished, and peak season in her corner of the industry hasn’t even started yet. Labor laws are a little different in our country, but she doesn’t get paid overtime, and her salary is barely enough to make ends meet in the high-cost city that we live in.

    TL;DR My friend works in tour operations and is being told that an impossible amount of deadlines need to be met each week, and if she and her coworkers try to say that it’s impossible or push for more help or clarification, they get told to stay at work until it gets done. Travel industry people, is this normal, or should my friend be looking into other jobs in the same industry?

    1. Thlayli*

      Sorry I don’t know it this is normal or not, but I think she should start job searching both within the industry and in other areas.

      1. Pink & Gray*

        Thanks for weighing in! Yeah, she wants to start job hunting no matter what, but if everything in the industry is the same, she’ll have to put thought into what sort of job she wants to look into next, especially since the amount of overtime she has to do was misrepresented in the interview process for this job. This was her first corporate job, so she doesn’t have much context to make an informed decision.

  213. Shouldabin*

    I’m late to the party today but I wanted to ask for some advice about an overbearing coworker. I don’t think things are BAD yet but I see red flags all over the place.

    I’m a relatively new (youngish) staff member at a library. My coworker, Jane, has been there for quite a long time. She is very traditionalist and proud of her position and experience. We work in the same department but I report directly to Grandboss while she reports to a lower manager. My job description is very loose so I’ve been helping perform duties that overlap a bit in an area where she sometimes works, say teapot arranging. She does not manage teapot arranging. It’s an area where people have previously just chipped in as needed. I very much enjoy arranging and I’ve been given basically a carte blanche by my Grandboss to do as much or as little arranging as I want. Other staff are very excited that someone is taking care of this neglected area and have been supportive, including Jane.

    Lately, though, Jane has been increasingly critical of aspects of what I do. We have different approaches to teapot arranging. She makes suggestions that aren’t out of line or unreasonable, but expects me to incorporate them immediately. I sometimes don’t do what she says because I’ve deliberately taken a different approach. When I don’t take her advice, she sometimes repeats it to me several times a day, even after I explain that I’m doing something different. Jane hasn’t reached actively hostile behavior yet but she’s very insistent and I feel a growing tension. On other tasks we work on together, she treats me like a subordinate even though I am definitely not.

    How do I make sure the nitpicking doesn’t escalate further into a situation where our working relationship suffers? How do I tell her I appreciate her advice but I also don’t take orders from her?

    1. Thlayli*

      Maybe something like “thanks for your input Jane, but this is m decision and I’ve decided to do x. Can I ask that you stop recommending y please”

    2. Wrench Turner*

      “I apprecieate your perspective and experience. Grandboss supports my lead on this project so I’m doing it this way for now. Thanks for your input, I’ll consider it.”

  214. Drama Llama*

    As part of an exit deal, I am contractually obliged to provide “Diane” a reference.

    The problem is my reference would be largely negative. She constantly complains about her workload even though she’s only given a small number of basic tasks. She frequently misses deadlines without any acknowledgement. Many employees complained of her rudeness and unreliability.

    I live in New Zealand where terminating employees is extremely difficult and costly. I would actually feel guilty recommending her to an employer. Yet Diane literally has no one else who would act as a suitable referee.

    How would you provide a reference for a poor performer with major conflicts with other staff?

    1. Betsy*

      I think I would mention anything positive I could think of (after racking my brains). Or you could have a chat with Diane about her achievements and put those in the letter.

      If you don’t believe in her, but need to write a letter, it most likely won’t come across as glowing, which is fine. You could just focus on details like how long she worked there, and what her responsibilities were. I think if I received a letter saying ‘Diane maintained a strong record of attendance, rarely missing work’ and ‘Diane completed tasks such as teapot spout painting, and teapot testing. She is competent at applying paint to teapots in order to create designs’ I would realise that your recommendation is not that strong.

    2. Thlayli*

      Can you ask your manager or whoever did the exit deal with Diane for guidance? You may be prohibited from saying anything negative, so it’s best to understand what your limitations are. Ask them what are you supposed to say when asked about hitting deadlines or politeness.

      I doubt they would tell you to outright lie, and if they do you can say you are not willing to outright lie and if that’s what they want they need to get someone else to do the reference.

      Assuming you can’t say negative things and you don’t have to lie I would just tell the person who rings the dates she worked there and the role she had and then answer any questions honestly. If a question warrants a negative response then that’s where the guidance from your manager comes in.

    3. Wrench Turner*

      Oh Diane, yes! She bathed regularly. That was nice. Her performance? Well she stopped picking her nose when we asked, so that was a marked improvement.

    4. Blue Eagle*

      “You will be lucky to get this person to work for you.”

      “I would urge you to waste no time in making this candidate an offer of employment.”

      “I can assure you that no person would be better for this job.”

      “I am pleased to say she is a former employee of mine.”

      Hee, hee, hee!

      1. RocketSurgeon*

        Ah – the “L.I.A.R.” (can’t remember the acronym) assessment! “You would be fortunate to have this person work on your team.”

  215. WhiteBear*

    I’ve been out of work for a few months now and need a job. I’ve just been offered one, not a great salary, but standard 9-5 for decent work. Unfortunately my beloved 12 year old dog’s health has taken a turn for the worse and the vet estimates she has a few weeks to a few months left. I’ve had her since I was 13 years old and this has completely shattered my ability to focus on anything else. I can’t justify leaving her at home by herself for possibly 9-10 hours a day, 5 days a week (travel is about 25 minutes each way, but with rush hour traffic and winter weather it could be much longer). Could I or should I try to ask for some kind of flexible schedule, for example, working 6 hours a day, or 4 days a week? Should I turn down the only offer I’ve received in a long time even though I’d rather find something closer to home? (Currently my dog appears in great health, she runs, jumps, plays, walks, barks, eats, and sleeps as normal. She’s definitely not as energetic as she used to be, but she has a tumor that the vet says is fast-growing and I will start to see a very rapid decline. We are making plans to have her humanely put down, but until she actually starts showing signs of ill health we want the end of her life to be happy and comfortable, and I want to be there for her).

    1. Thlayli*

      You can ask but I very much doubt the new job would be willing to accommodate that straight away. You may have to choose between spending time with your dog and keeping the job. So this comes down to can you afford it really.

      An alternative option would be to hire a dog sitter or put the dog in daycare. This may be cheaper than giving up the job.

      1. Wrench Turner*

        Find a local reputable dogsitter / dog walker to spend time with the pup during the day while you’re gone. You can schedule a morning and afternoon visit, too, so they’ve got a little more company than just the one walk per day. Check for insurance, etc, and your dog will enjoy the New Friend!OMG that comes to visit every day while you’re out.

    2. Triplestep*

      Another vote for finding a dog sitter or day care. If it’s not too uncomfortable for your dog to ride in the car, maybe you could find a doggy day care near the new workplace. That way if there are any emergencies you’d be close by.

      If I were your new employer and it became apparent you had made arrangements for end of life care for your dog – rather than ask for time off at the start of a job, or passed it up all together – that would earn points with me. I’d consider you a considerate employee, and a compassionate dog owner.

      Good luck, and I’m so sorry about your dog.

    3. NacSacJack*

      I’m in a similar situation and to be honest with you, this is just something that comes from owning a dog, they have shorter lifespans than we do. The situation you describe, being gone 9-10 hours with a 25 min commute is very typical. Regrettably, she may pass away while you are at work. Hopefully, you will have a few days warning or be able to plan the passage over the rainbow bridge. With this said, I would take the job, be there as much as you can, ask your vet for warning signs and discuss with him/her a possible end date. So sorry for your future loss.

  216. Fashionably Challenged*

    I’m opening up the workplace-appropriate attire can of worms. When this topic comes up, it makes me wonder about specific pieces I’ve bought (or would consider buying). For instance, I have this top (in green):
    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/39406565468776311/.
    And this one (in white): https://www.pinterest.com/pin/24629129192890085/.
    You can — and I usually do — wear a tank top underneath both of these tops to camouflage bra straps/reduce amount of skin showing under the lace designs. But should I be avoiding wearing them in the workplace ever, at least without a cardigan on top?

    My overall thought is just that it’s tricky to find that balance of flattering and not-too-boring, but that’s probably one of the eternal struggles of fashion.

    1. Effie, who is pondering*

      I think the long-sleeved top (the first one) is fine. The second one looks a bit casual; I tend not to do short-sleeve tops in the office (short-sleeved dresses yes because dresses inherently look more formal IME). Would be fine with a cardi :)

      1. Fashionably Challenged*

        Makes sense about short-sleeved tops looking more casual on their own. I don’t have a rule about never doing so, but interesting to keep in mind. Thanks for weighing in!

        1. Effie, who is pondering*

          I also get cold easily so keep a spare cardi at my desk anyway just in case. I’ve seen other women wear short-sleeved tops and look professional. Some tops just look expensive/professional/good quality, you know? I can’t pull it off because I’m too short and get cold easily :P

  217. Teapotty*

    I used to work for my local government but the thing that drove me not to apply for permanency was having to chase answers about annual leave. I didn’t mind not being granted the leave or negotiating days off but just not to hear was awful. Even when I chased to know if I could have say a Friday off at the end of the month, I used to be told ‘oh, we’ll look at that later and let you know; there might be something crop up we need you in for’. Note the word ‘might’. It mafe it difficult to make plans or train/plane fares would jump whilst I chased leave requests. A lot of people simply took a sick day or claimed their child was sick if they had an appointment they wanted to keep so it went from planned leave to unplanned with obvious knock on effects. When I finally quit over a mixture of reasons, my manager said that she was sad to hear this as ‘you come in on time (early), sit down and do your work’. I’m not a manager but isn’t that the baseline expectation of an employee?!

    1. Nacho*

      I feel the same way, but apparently not since I’m one of the only people who does it at my office too. I’m not sure what you did, but at low levels, people definitely care less about their job, and are more willing to just go “fuck it, I’m not going in today.”

    2. Wrench Turner*

      You would be AMAZED at how rare the baseline for professionalism -showing up on time, doing your job as best you can, being a team player/helpful to your coworkers- actually is.

  218. Database Geek*

    I’m hard of hearing and sometimes have trouble hearing on the phone. It seems that most of the jobs I am applying for have at least some phone use requirement – usually answering specific questions. I’m struggling how to figure out when and how to explain that sometimes I have trouble hearing on the phone… because I don’t want to say I can’t use the phone because that’s not actually true. But it is true that there probably will come a time when someone is on the phone I cannot understand no matter how loud they try to speak (because the volume isn’t the only problem). Accents and other issues make it difficult to understand as well…

    1. Wrench Turner*

      If a job is clearly phone-heavy you may want to avoid it. When it comes to accepting the offer for a job you like, however, you can bring this up and ask for some Reasonable Accommodation. It helps if you have some medical documentation to support this. If you’re great at the rest of your work it shouldn’t be a big deal at all.

      1. Database Geek*

        I avoid the ones that are phone heavy already. It’s the ones where it’s not the main part of the job/might only be the occasional phone call that I’m not sure about. I mean sure my preference would be no phone calls at all but I’m not sure that’s possible. Even at my previous job, I had to deal with the occasional phone call though I was more easily able to ask a coworker take the call for me if I was really struggling to understand the person…

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I placed someone who was HoH and she has a special phone as an accommodation. I don’t know the specifics of how the phone helps her, but maybe you could research if there are option that would make it easier for you on those occasions?

      1. Database Geek*

        I’ve been wondering if one of the captioned phones would be a possibility but there may be concerns about confidentiality especially when money is involved… but I’ll have to look into it further.

        1. anonagain*

          If you are in the US, I know the relay services have confidentiality rules for their operators. If you’re concerned about whether that is enough of a safeguard in your particular field or what your options are, I recommend the Job Accommodation Network (askjan dot org). They have information about different types of accommodations and consultants you can talk to if you have questions.

          The consultant I spoke to was extremely helpful. He gave me information about specific accommodations I might try, talked about my legal rights and sent me reference material, and gave me suggestions about how to talk to my boss.

          It may also be that there are ways of rearranging the work so someone else answers calls, you communicate with people by email instead, etc.

          Good luck with your search.

    3. Overeducated*

      I think it might be worth treating as a disability if it rises to the level of impacting what kind of job you can take. That means that at some late stage in the hiring process you can ask about assistive technology/services for the phone. For example, if you are a government employee there are relay services you can call into or request, for free, that will do things like real time captioning. I don’t know too much about them, just went to a single awareness event, but there is stuff out there to help, that I didnt even know about, that larger employers are likely to provide.

  219. Godzilla the Kitty*

    I’m 10 months into my first post-university job in a small non-profit and have just been given ownership of my first fundraising project, which is exciting but mostly terrifying! It’s going to be a huge learning curve for me, which my bosses know (it’s not the main focus of my role), and while they’re not just throwing me in the deep end without a lifeline, I need to show them I can step up to the plate. I have no fundraising experience. Any advice?

    1. nep*

      Great tips from Wrench Turner.
      Just want to say congratulations. Great that your employer handed this to you — they see in you the potential to nail it. Sounds like an ideal situation to learn and grow professionally, with your bosses knowing it will be a learning curve but giving you the opportunity to take it on.
      All the best and do keep us posted.

  220. Wrench Turner*

    Keep a spreadsheet or easy to search calendar log of your contacts and key points of that contact because you’ll meet a lot of people, take a lot of calls, and it will be great to target folks for things you need:
    1/12/18 – Lady Chatterly – Teapot Rescue.org – talked about teapot rescue, adoption and transport. Knows donors.
    1/13/18 – Earl Sandwich – Delicious Catering – fostered 34 teapots, said would do in-kind donation catering for events.
    1/14/18 – Bender Rodriguez – reminded about offer to bend metal for charity auction, still interested.
    etc.
    That way when it comes time to throw an event/gala (because there will always be one) or do a specific ask you can quickly put together lists of helpful people you already have established contacts with. It helped me a lot when I was working with non-profits, even in a logistics/support role. When random needs came up I could search my contact log and say “Hey I know a guy who…”

    1. Wrench Turner*

      That was supposed to be a reply to Godzilla Kitty, above. Not sure what happened. Apologies (i need more coffee)!

  221. Triple Anon*

    Part I

    Sort of a follow up to the first post here. If you could choose your perks, what would you want?

    Here are mine:

    1) Manage Your Own Time – unlimited vacation, work remotely when you want to, set your own hours, with the understanding that you’ll do good work and be around as needed.

    2) Naps – I know this sounds silly, but I would really like to take a ten minute nap in the middle of the work day sometimes. It would make me more productive. I don’t know how it would be arranged in practice, but it would be nice.

    3) More Money – I don’t want free chocolate cake and discounts on car washes or whatever the latest thing is. I just want more money. Don’t buy me things. I don’t want a “cool office”. I want a place where I can do my job and the most money you can give me in exchange for that.

    Part II

    Unrelated second question. This sounds like a canned response to an interview question, but here it is. I work too hard. I mean I tend to work harder than my co-workers and it offends them. I don’t like socializing at work much. I’m there to do my job. Since I have to devote a certain amount of time to being there and doing the job, I do it to the best of my ability. I don’t like distractions or down time during the day. It shifts my focus and makes me less productive.

    So people think I’m uptight, brown nosing, trying too hard, trying to out do them, being unfriendly, taking my job too seriously, all of that. But it’s really just that I’m hard working by nature and I can’t multitask. I’m not good at working and being social at the same time. And it’s my nature to do the best that I can at whatever I spend my time on.

    At my next job, do you think I should explain this to people? I mean something along the lines of, “I’m not very social at work because I’m not good at multi-tasking. I like to focus and then socialize when I get my work done,” or something like that?

    How can you be a good worker without offending people?

    1. nep*

      Re the second part — Seems to me you certainly don’t need to apologise or excuse yourself for your work ethic and your way of working. I certainly don’t think you should turn it around to ‘I’m not good at multi-tasking.’ Everyone is different — this is what works for you. Own it. You don’t owe anyone excuses.
      Has anyone ever commented that you’re cold or unsociable in the workplace? How do you know you’re offending people, or that people think you’re uptight, brown-nosing, etc? In any case I’d say pay no mind. You’ll never know precisely what everyone is thinking, so it can turn into an unnecessarily messy path if you start putting out disclaimers based on how you think others might see you.
      Keep on being a great worker. Period. My 2 cents.

      1. Triple Anon*

        Yes, people do comment. That’s how I know it’s an issue. I’m the office dork who works too hard and who, therefore, no one wants to be friends with. Which is kind of ok with me because I’m not there to be social. And I can mitigate it, to an extent, with after work drinks and conversation. I make an effort to get to know a few people when I’m not working.

        But it’s an issue when it leads to more serious things. Like getting screamed at by someone who feels superior because they’re been there longer (“Know your place! Don’t ask questions!” “But I found a mistake and I think we should fix it…” “Accept the chaos, newcomer!”). And, you know, people trying to sabotage my work, not wanting to work with me, not including me in social things because they think I’m no fun and probably friends with the boss, all of that stuff. Then I get stuff from higher ups like, “Tell people you don’t know how to do that,” “Tell people you didn’t do that. I don’t want them to think you’re higher ranking or higher paid. Know your place.” In other words, they want me to pretend to be less motivated and less knowledgeable so as to make the team structure make sense or something….

        It’s definitely not all bad, and mostly a good thing. I just want to work on the ways in which it leads to conflicts or other issues with people.

        1. Triple Anon*

          Oh and the most common is that it changes the expectations for other people. If I start doing Annoying Extra Task, then everyone will be expected to, and that’s annoying. But I’m kind of all or nothing by nature. If I slow down and work less hard, I can’t focus and I just check out. I need to work work work and then, when that’s over, I shift into non-work mode and forget what even happened during work time.

        2. nep*

          Wow — sorry you’ve got to deal with that kind of stuff at work. Some of that sounds pretty perverse.
          I’d be interested to hear from others — is this fairly typical? Yikes.

        3. Blue Eagle*

          Not being able to multi-task is OK. The problem here seems to be that you don’t take any time to be social. So, maybe when you complete one task, step away from your desk to fill your water glass and on the way to or from the drinking fountain engage someone in a short conversation (say 1-2 minutes to ask about a sports team or a television show or a hobby of theirs). Then on to your next task.

          It sounds like you are ONLY task focused and not social focused at all and maybe you need to think about include a daily social task on your “to do” list.

    2. Overeducated*

      Manage your own time would be amazing. That is the #2 thing I miss from academia (#1 being winter holiday closure so you dont have to use up 1/3 of your vacation for the year just to see family between Christmas and New Year’s).

      A tea break would be nice too. Maybe I should work in the UK or Ireland.

  222. UncomfortableAtWork*

    Please help! I have a colleague who smells unpleasant. We share an office (I, a female, with 4 men) and I have to constantly open the window throughout the day (in minus temperatures sometimes) to air it out. It looks, from his hair, like he doesn’t shower often, and certainly not in the morning. I go out of my way not to come too close to him, but the entire room smells! No one else has mentioned this to me, nor have I ever encountered this problem before. I feel so uncomfortable and don’t know how to proceed. We share a manager, but I feel like this is too “personal” to bring up to her??? Any tips??

    1. nep*

      This is a tough one. I think I’d talk with the manager about it. You can’t be the only one noticing.
      (I know people at work often smell my chronic bad breath — I feel bad subjecting them to it and I do my best not to…I’ve told colleagues to signal to me if it’s overwhelming and I’ll go do some temporary fix…)
      I once saw a flight attendant so beautifully handle a case on a long flight — a young woman had very bad body odor and you could tell everyone was noticing it. This flight attendant was an absolute rock star; she discreetly talked to the young woman and gave her a toiletries kit. The young woman spent a good while in the restroom and she was positively glowing when she came out. Odor gone — but also she had a completely different demeanor. Who knows what her story was…Anyway it was beautiful to behold and I always regretted not getting the airline worker’s name to write a letter of commendation.
      Rambling here — All this to say I think if there is someone in the office who is able to step up and have a talk with this employee in a tactful, respectful way, it would be a great solution for all involved. No one wants to be offending people with an odor; it’s a sign of caring and respect to tell.

      1. nep*

        (P.S. Is he otherwise unkempt? Do his clothes appear clean and cared for, or are they messy, wrinkled..?)

        1. UncomfortableAtWork*

          Thanks for replying!
          He is not unkempt. He dresses sort of like a student, I would say. But his clothing appears clean. He also lives with his girlfriend, and they have a new baby (no, this is not a sudden change due to the baby), so I do wonder how she lets him out like this… But that’s probably me assuming a lot.
          I guess I’ll have to talk to our manager. She doesn’t usually deal with issues in the office that well, perhaps because she is the same age as most of the employees, but in this case I suppose there isn’t another option.
          Cheers!

    2. Triple Anon*

      I’m sure this goes without saying, but also keep an open mind about the cause of it. I think there are medical conditions that can cause people to smell bad. Or there could be a situational explanation (stuff outside of work that keeps him so busy he can’t shower? tight budget?). I mean I would approach it as though the cause might beyond his control.

      You could try saying something like, “It smells bad in here. Has anyone else noticed?” Maybe he’d respond by letting you know what’s going on, or get the hint (which ever one applies). Going to the manager could be a back up plan if that doesn’t help.

      1. UncomfortableAtWork*

        I have done that enough times. I generally say it to excuse my opening windows in the winter! No one really comments other than to agree with me. I has not gotten the hint.

        Of course I am sensitive about this, which is why I have not approached him (I am a direct, but empathetic person). But it isn’t a question of budget — I know how much he gets paid, and his girlfriend also has a full-time job. Also, where we live water is the cheapest in all of Europe.

        Thanks for you reply though.

        1. Det. Charles Boyle*

          Someone needs to take him discreetly aside and tell him it’s an issue. Don’t ask any questions about it, just let him know it’s an issue and let him know that HR/EAP is available if he needs assistance. It might be a medical problem, and you don’t want to get involved in that. But he may not know it’s a problem and it’s unfair to expect him to solve it if he doesn’t even know about it. Don’t mention it to the office at large or send a group email. That would be cruel.

  223. A. D. Kay*

    I need a reality check from y’all. What is a typical length of time for a company to inform you about their hiring decision for a permanent, full-time job? I’ve worked as a contractor for most of the past 10 years, and contract jobs usually have a quick turnaround. I interviewed for a full-time job on Tuesday, Jan. 30 and still have not heard back. Since it’s been nearly two weeks, I’m thinking they went with another candidate and I need to move on.

    1. buttercup*

      It can take a long time for some jobs. For my current job, it took 3 weeks after my final interview. I already had assumed I didn’t get it, but got the phone call the following Monday.

      1. A. D. Kay*

        Thanks for the feedback. I’m trying to be patient, but I also am pursuing some contract opportunities in case the full-time position doesn’t pan out.

  224. On PIP (but not really?)*

    On Thursday, I got put on a performance improvement plan, though my manager was careful to explain to me it was not a traditional PIP in that it was a last step to getting terminated (unless, of course, I continue to get worse.) She says I am a generally good performing analyst who had some performance issues crop up in the last couple months of last year (October-November) that she attributes to procrastination and time management, so she wanted to address them. Rather, this is supposed to put me on a path to being a stellar employee.
    The main issue is that we are given 6 days to complete client-facing reports. We have to turn in drafts to our client supervisors each day. Back in December, one of my supervisors complained to my manager that the outline I turned in the 2nd day of the project wasn’t complete (I had turned in a skeleton outline because I spent the first 2 days doing research, plus I had back-to-back meetings during the day on 2 other projects.)
    Also, during October, I had turned in a couple of Powerpoint reports that weren’t good quality, despite my best efforts. We had just switched from Word doc reports to Powerpoint overnight. I was never trained to write stand-alone reports in PPT format, so I admit I had trouble transitioning, but my supervisors also didn’t tell me what they expected in the report.
    For some context, I started this job 8 months ago. In the first 4 months, I received nothing but praise for my work from project supervisors and clients (who are not the same as our managers.) Starting around October, after we switched to Powerpoint-only, I completed the 2 projects that were below satisfactory. However, since post-Christmas, after learning from my previous mistakes, I delivered 3 reports all receiving good evaluations, including one on Monday. I have never missed a deadline. But now I’m on PIP for the mistakes I made in the two months before Christmas holidays.
    I do plan on taking my manager’s recommendations seriously (because I want to keep my job), but how can I avoid future miscommunications on what is expected of me? Basically, I want to avoid this ever happening again, in this job and future jobs.

    1. OlderThanDirt*

      You might want to re-post this question next week since it’s a late one to get more responses. I would try to diplomatically push back on your manager’s diagnosis of poor time management since the problems were more about an unusual meeting schedule and switching platforms for deliverables. That said, are you sure that the manager is basing the observation only on your deliverables? Are there any other places she could observe you having a time management problem? Are you ever late in the morning? If the reports are the only problem, I’d ask her for help on what to do when you get a crush of meetings during a project and also get feedback on what kind of research she thinks is necessary and thorough. I’ve got a tendency to keep researching because there’s always more info! I depend on a deadline to keep me from going down too many paths.
      If there are more places where she might diagnose time management, searching through the threads could bring up a lot of suggestions you could try. My immediate take is 8 months! Major change in deliverable platform! I think you can stop worrying that this is a problem that will dog you your whole work life.

      1. On PIP (but not really?)*

        Thanks for the feedback. I will try posting this again in a later thread, as I am traveling next week. I’m rarely late to work – if I am, it’s because there was some unusual incident in traffic or something. I’m still trying to navigate where I went wrong to deserve this PIP-lite, and I think it comes down to not really realizing what was important to my supervisors and managers. I was so focused on executing the end deliverable that I didn’t realize I was pissing off my supervisors by not giving them the drafts they wanted. To some extent, I blame my managers for not being clear about these expectations in the beginning, but I hold myself accountable for being tone-deaf.

  225. Solaire*

    I just left a short term job that ended badly for a new one, and I’m not sure how to present that on my resume and future interviews.

    Here’s my recent job history:
    * May 2016 – June 2017: Midsize tech company
    * June 2017 – December 2017: Megacorp
    * January 2018 – present: Startup

    (I know that a year is a pretty short stay at some jobs, but I’m a software engineer in a huge urban center, so it’s not really stigmatized)

    I’m going to leave the bad short term job (megacorp/job #2) off my resume – basically my boss started antagonizing me and threatening to fire me for disclosing a disability, and HR was dragging their feet on doing anything. However I’m not sure how to present that gap – I was thinking of one of the following options.

    1. “I tried to independent contracting, and while I was getting work, I realized I’m much more comfortable on working on a long term project with a big team.”
    2. “There was a family health emergency, and I needed to be around to help my parent recover 24/7. I left Midsize Company on good terms and I’m still close with a lot of people there, but what I was doing there isn’t what I want to make my career into.” (the part about being on good terms with job #1 is completely correct)

    I’d love any advice on what the best course of action should be. Thanks!

  226. nep*

    In the hope that some are still looking at this thread late-ish on Saturday —
    Should I put unpaid consulting work on my resume? Context: I am returning to an industry after a few years away. When I list ‘relevant experience,’ those dates are now four years ago. I do have a line in my profile that I’m returning to this work after three years in xy industry, and I address it in my cover letter.
    In the past year or so (up until present) I’ve done some work for two colleagues/friends in the discipline I’m returning to. Unpaid. But it’s something recent that links me back to this industry — Should I list it? If yes, just as consulting work, and not mention paid or unpaid unless that comes up in (heaven help me) an interview?

    1. nep*

      Of course I should have done an AAM search before posting this question — Alison gives a very helpful reply to a similar one.

  227. Allison*

    I recently found this site and I used a lot of the tips to work on my cover letter for an awesome position I found. I spent all week perfecting my cover letter and updating my resume, only to find that the position already closed when I went to submit my application. There wasn’t a closing date posted and I was pretty frustrated over spending so much time working on it and not actually being able to apply for the position. Does anyone have advice for writing strong cover letters in a timely manner?

      1. Effie, who is pondering*

        Practice and letting perfectionist standards go. Sometimes good enough/competent really is good enough. Working on it myself :)

        1. AeroEngineer*

          Yes, this. I have actually gotten the vast majority of my interviews from cover letters which I deemed just good enough (all but one I think), and they have gotten much easier with practice overall.

          If the posting doesn’t have an end date, I try to get the letter done within the next 24 hours, ideally the same day (so within 8 or so hours). This also puts a deadline on the writing, which makes it easier for me to get it done.

  228. Observer*

    OMG – This post is actually called “Office Perks Employees Actually Want”

    The thing that made my jaw drop?

    Are foosball tables and open space designs really necessary?

    If you ask me, it is. It is not about the foosball table, it is about the atmosphere. Having a modern office design beats the old cubicles in every possible way. With modern open space design workers are one next to the other, they can communicate, help each other and, what is the most important, they will bond. There is no better way to bond a group of people than to put them in one room 8 hours a day, 5 days in a week.

    https://hr-gazette.com/office-perks-employees-actually-want/

    1. periwinkle*

      Saw your post on the weekend thread so I had to pop over here to check it out.

      Please note that the idiotic piece about office perks was written by a foosball enthusiast. If you visit his site, linked at the end of the page, you’ll see that he is a former professional foosball player (which I did not know was even a thing). He’s not an HR writer, HR professional, or someone with any apparent HR or workplace credibility. But he would likely love to have a foosball table at work.

      Based on a quick scan of other “guest blogger” pieces on that site, expertise is not a requirement for submitting writing to the site.

      1. Observer*

        Which begs the question of why would any self respecting site allow any idiot to write any drivel? Clickbait?

        1. SC Anonibrarian*

          Clickbait. I hope that at least half the outraged people who click on that site mail the gazette their unwanted work foosball tables.

    2. Sam Foster*

      I do NOT want to bond with my coworkers. I’m an old with decades of experience as a programmer with SDLC and Agile methods in cubes and offices with increasing responsibility across collaborative teams to use the “jargon.” Open floor plans are a kludge to force low social skill loners to interact with each other. If you are so bad at collaborating that you can’t function unless you sit in close enough proximity to touch other people there are much bigger cultural issues going on that need to be addressed.

      2. NacSacJack*

        And open spaces do not encourage collaboration when part of your team sits 1500 miles away and another part of it is 10,000 miles away with a 12 hour time difference.

    3. copy run start*

      We have a foosball table, a pingpong table and a pool table. They’re nice, easy way to encourage people to take breaks and blow off steam, and we have little tournaments regularly that are fun to follow.

      But I feel like we already have a good, healthy office and almost everyone gets along well. So we already have a moist and delicious chocolate cake covered in decadent buttercream frosting… these things are just the frosting roses along the top.

      And for the record, we have the traditional cube farm, though some cubes only have 2 walls.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Spoken like someone who never outgrew college. I love foosball but it is LOUD. Same with having a pool table or ping-pong table. We had them in the open spaces in our dorm and it really promoted bonding. You know what didn’t happen there? Homework. Studying. Focusing. Getting work done. All that stuff was done in quiet places like individual dorm rooms or library carrels. Since the point of going to an office for 8+ hours a day is to do work, the environment should foster work.

  229. Pathfinder Ryder*

    Moved from weekend open thread: People with fictional character display names, what workplace problems would they write to Alison about?

    1. Pathfinder Ryder*

      Dear Alison,

      My father recently died and passed his job down to me, including equipment which cannot be removed without killing me. This is not a hereditary position, as his (now my) boss likes to remind me, and I’m not trained for it. His planned successor keeps making my father’s death all about how she was supposed to get this role, and won’t let me talk about how it’s affecting me. Dad and I were distant so I have no idea why he gave me this role instead of my coworker. How do I get my new boss and coworker to support me in this unexpected new role while I’m grieving?

  230. Tomato Soup*

    How important is linkedin presence as a candidate looking for job?

    I’m in this weird situation where I’m still looking for work but i dont want college folks to see me where I drift to LOLOL. so I haven’t been updating it

    1. Effie, who is pondering*

      I barely use my Linkedin and it hasn’t hindered me much in my job search. I’ve had several former stalkers so any position that requires me to have a Linkedin wouldn’t be a good fit for me.

    2. Sam Foster*

      I’m having career coaches say it is incredibly important but I can’t tell if they’re blowing smoke, have factual data to back it up, or just have some special tools on the site that make their lives easier.

  231. Fresh Faced*

    On the last week of my contract and as grateful as I am for this opportunity (my first full-time job in my field!) I am ready to move on and go home. Feels good to update my CV with some relevant work. Let the job hunt restart!

  232. Anon8888*

    I am on a team of two people and my coworker just started medical leave. That’s all fine and good except for the fact that I am going through a severe depressive episode (I have bipolar) and the possibility of needing medical leave in the immediate future has already come up with my doctor. I get intellectually that this is just one of those things that we can’t control and if I need medical leave, I should take it. The obligations of the job, the fact that none of our work will get done (and there is nobody else who can do it), and that a huge part of our job is communicating with external stakeholders (we’re in govt) makes it seem like it’s not even an option. Add to that it’s for a mental illness and I can’t stop thinking that I need to just get my shit together and take care of business, which is just making my depression worse because I can’t get myself there. How do you handle the possibility of overlapping medical leave or an entire team (albeit tiny) out on leave? I am just at a loss and I don’t want to be seen as unable to step up when it’s really needed or that this situation contributed to my need for medical leave (it didn’t – I had already talked to my doc about it when my coworker informed us of her leave). I haven’t disclosed my illness to my employer and would really prefer not to. Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. Ktelzbeth*

      I don’t have any concrete advice and I don’t know if you’re still around, but I just saw the post. I think you have to take care of yourself as if you are the only person in the world. Whether your coworker is out has nothing to do with how sick you are. Mental illness is no less severe, serious, meaningful, or whatever you want to call it than physical illness. Your situation is tough since you haven’t mentioned your illness to your employer in the past, so the initial timing is going to be bad. If you need the time, though, you will have to talk to them eventually. I don’t know where you are to know if your employer can ask what your illness is. As for the entire team being out, if you work yourself into unplanned illness, you’ll both be out and in a much less planned and controlled manner than if you take medical leave in time to keep yourself together. Someone else will manage to pick up the pieces. After all what if you were both hit by a bus or ran off to Timbuktu together after winning the lottery? Good luck. Let us know how you are doing.

  233. Anono-me*

    Check on FMLA and what needs to be disclosed and what doesn’t. AAM has some good posts and links.

    You have a medical issue and your medical doctor told you you might need to take some sick leave to take care of it.

  234. eventsgurugirl*

    Has anyone come across “technology benefits” on a job posting? It’s listed under the job benefits with 401k, PTO , etc.

Comments are closed.