coworkers talk about childbirth over lunch, employee is abusing candidate referrals, and more

by Alison Green on March 13, 2018

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My coworkers love talking about childbirth during lunch and it’s grossing me out

My coworkers enjoy talking about childbirth at lunch. It seems like I can’t even eat my lunch without someone discussing a torn perineum. I’ve tried making jokes like “ha ha, I just want to eat my lunch without a side of placenta” but they just keep talking about it. I think because I’m a woman in my mid-20s they assume that I want to hear about this stuff, but the fact is that I find is disgusting. It doesn’t help that we have two pregnant women in the office so everyone wants to share their horror stories.

Should I just pack more snacks and eat lunch later or eat at my desk? I love to talk about weekend stuff, music, pets, anything but bodily fluids and babies.

I think you can ask — clearly and directly and without making a joke about it, so they know you really mean it — if they wouldn’t mind stopping. But if that doesn’t work and it turns out that everyone but you likes the topic and wants to continue with it, then all you can really do is remove yourself from the situation. (That doesn’t mean the topic is polite or appropriate; it’s not.)

So in this case, you could say, “Hey, can I ask y’all a favor? I love eating together and getting to catch up, but I’m really uncomfortable with all the explicit talk about childbirth. Would you be up for reining that in? If not, I can eat on my own — but I enjoy our lunches together so much the rest of the time that I wanted to ask.”

You will probably get some ribbing about this, but they still might agree to cut it out.

2. Employee is abusing our candidate referral program

I work in HR in a recruiting function, but I manage the entirety of the process, everything from resume screening to phone screens to moving people forward, to offers. We promote employee referrals (and offer a referral bonus) and I’m usually glad to get them into our pipeline.

However, we have one employee who loves to send referrals. Rather than referring friends or old coworkers, he “screens” people on LinkedIn who are looking for new jobs and sends them to me. I usually ask how he knows the person he’s referring and the answer is something vague “works with my old roommate” or “found them through their uncle on LinkedIn.”

I recently screened one of the referrals he sent over and didn’t think the candidate was anything special. Very average and not someone I would want to move into the in person interview stage. The employee then came to ask how the screen went and I told him point blank that I wouldn’t be moving them forward. He became very defensive and said that they sounded great when they spoke on the phone and they had a lot of skills we are looking for. I didn’t want to divulge too many details as I felt that would be inappropriate to my candidate, but I simply said that they didn’t have specific skills I was looking for. I also didn’t tell the employee that they aren’t trained at screening people and shouldn’t be attempting to do so. The employee came back again to talk about it and casually mentioned that he thought the candidate deserved “a fighting chance.”

This employee has previously referred people who have made it to in-person interviews and my managers have never liked his referrals. I’m at a loss. Should I address this with him in any way? Can I tell him to back off and stop trying to do my job? Tell them to only refer people he knows very well and can vouch for? I feel like this wouldn’t go over well with him as there are no standards currently in place to be able to refer someone, and I have a feeling he will attempt to skew this as something where I’m out to get them.

You can absolutely tell him to stop seeking out strangers on his own to try to recruit them! He’s not a recruiter, and you haven’t authorized him to do that (and he’s doing it badly).

You can say something like, “Please only refer people who you know fairly well or have worked with. We don’t want you to go looking on LinkedIn for candidates on your own, since you haven’t been trained to recruit for us, and generally you shouldn’t be doing your own phone interviews with people.” (That last part is tricky, because if he had better judgment, it would make sense that he’d want to talk with a candidate before agreeing to refer them. But if he’s just screening random people he seeks out himself, it’s going to come across to them as an interview, and he’s not authorized to interview candidates on your behalf — and he could be saying things that are legally sketchy or otherwise misrepresenting your company.)

It’s possible that saying this will be at odds with how your company handles referrals generally; you may not require others to only refer people who they can vouch for. (Referrals are different from recommendations in that way.) But if he points that out, you can say that’s true, but in his case he’s sending an unusually high number of referrals and it’s taking a disproportionate amount of time to screen them all. It’s not cool for him to try to refer as many people as he can in order to get the referral bonus, which probably what’s happening.

That said, in general it’s good practice to give employees feedback on how their referrals did so that they’re better able to target their referrals in the future and so that they don’t feel like their referrals are being ignored. That might help with this guy — if he sees that he’s clearly referring people who aren’t right — but it also might be too much burden on your time. That’s another reason to tell him to only refer people he actually knows and can vouch for. (To be clear, that’s not a rule you’d want to place on all employees — the point of a referral program is to get more candidates in the door — but it’s a rule for him, based on his behavior.)

You could also loop in his manager on what’s going on. You could even ban him from making referrals at all, but that may get into internal political considerations that I don’t have enough info on.

3. My coworker is visibly uncomfortable around my service dog

I recently started bringing my service dog to work with me. I went through all the required processes with my supervisor and HR, and found out that one of my neighboring coworkers (I’ll call her Carol) is very scared of dogs. I said I was willing to move desks, but they said it would not be necessary. However, Carol avoids me and my dog, and even refuses to walk within a few feet of my dog. If we’re walking in a hallway towards each other, I have to duck behind a wall or Carol gets visibly scared. I would like to help her be more comfortable around my dog, but don’t want her to feel pressured or coerced. Do you or your readers have any suggestions?

For context, my dog is about 65 pounds and tall. So she doesn’t exactly blend in. I keep her well groomed to make sure she doesn’t smell or shed excessively. She’s very quiet and doesn’t make any fuss.

I don’t know that it’s your place to try to help Carol be more comfortable around dogs unless she expresses an interest in that on her own (although I certainly understand the impulse to want to!). But you could tell her that you’ve noticed she’s uncomfortable around your dog and ask if there’s anything you could do differently to make her more comfortable, or if there are any questions you can answer about your dog that might help put her more at ease.

You could also mention that you’d offered to move to a different desk but HR didn’t think it was necessary — but that you’d be willing to bring it up again if she’d like you to.

Read an update to this letter here.

4. Our new office toilet paper is terrible

The company I work for had a change over in president recently. This president has a much more significant financial background. Computers went from being upgraded on a certain timeline to only if they break and office supplies all got cheap, including tissues and toilet paper.

The toilet paper we now use is very rough single ply, and it’s causing havoc with my body. Over the weekend when I’m not at work, everything starts to feel better, but then I go back at the beginning of the week and it goes back to hellish uncomfortable conditions. I’ve always been super sensitive to things in that area but I’m a loss what to do. I really don’t want to have to carry toilet paper back and forth between my desk and the bathroom in our open office plans. Do you have any other suggestions for what to do?

You can try talking to whoever orders the supplies and asking if it’s an option to switch back to the previous toilet paper, but chances sound pretty good that you’re going to hear no. If it’s truly terrible toilet paper — like less sensitive people are also dismayed about it — then you might have more luck approaching it as a group. (Which will require you to discreetly ask coworkers you’re close to if they hate the new toilet paper too, which is exactly the kind of conversation I would enjoy but you might not.)

But otherwise, then yeah, unfortunately I think you’ll need to bring in your own. Rather than carrying a roll of toilet paper about the office, you could put it in a bag or purse, although I realize that’s still not ideal.

5. Employer has rejected me twice but keeps encouraging me to apply

I applied for a job and made it through multiple rounds of interviews, down to the final two candidates. I did not get a job offer. The HR person called me to tell me that they offered the job to the other person, but emphatically stated that my skill set was exactly what they were looking for and really encouraged me to apply for other openings.

Initially, I thought she was just being polite, but, I decided it was worth giving it another shot. I applied for another job with that organization about a week after being rejected. They contacted me to begin interviewing for the second job (different HR person, who is very new to the organization, and who I don’t think realized that I had just interviewed for the first job). Again, after several rounds of interviews and making it pretty far in the process, I did not get an offer. Again, the HR person called me personally to tell me that I was a great fit for the organization, the competition just was very stiff for that position and that there would be openings posted soon that he “definitely encouraged me to apply for.”

It’s a place I would love to work, I just starting to feel like this is a lost cause. I haven’t been getting any response from other places I’ve applied. This place seems to like me, just not enough apparently. Are they just being polite when they say all this? And is it worth the time/effort to continue to apply for jobs with this organization?

They’re almost definitely not just being polite. Employers are very used to rejecting people and don’t generally go to the trouble of calling someone to encourage them to apply again if they don’t really mean it.

And yes, given the encouragement you’ve received, it’s definitely worth applying again if you see something that looks like a strong match.

I’ve hired people who had applied several times before. Sometimes it’s just not quite the right match, or it was a good match but someone else was a stronger match, but it’s worked out later on. As long as they keep encouraging you in this very clear way, you should take them at their word.

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  1. Mike C.*

    OP1’s situation feels significantly different from talking about a tv show or hobby because while latter are normal topics of polite and safe for work conversation, the latter (especially graphic descriptions) aren’t usually considered safe for work, let alone polite.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It depends on the specifics, but in general talking about a medical procedure or childbirth is different than talking graphically about, say, sex. Neither is appropriate at work, but if a group of coworkers wants to spend their lunch time talking about their experiences of childbirth, the OP doesn’t have the same clear standing to insist that it stop as she would if it were sex talk.

      1. Beatrice*

        I don’t think it is ok to talk about any medical procedure in enough detail that it brings up images of blood and generally talking about any subjects involving genitals can be touchy. For example, talk of experiences about prostate exams might make me a bit squeemish and that I was learning way more than I wanted to about my coworkers.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Maybe I need to reword the answer to be clearer. I’m not saying it’s polite or appropriate or okay. It’s none of those things. But the question for the OP is how much standing she has to push them to stop. If this were something that would fall under sexual harassment or hostile workplace, she could insist on it. But it’s not, and so her options are more limited. She can ask them to stop, but if they choose not to, she can’t require it.

          1. Traffic_Spiral*

            Yeah. Graphic medical discussions aren’t sexual harassment, but they aren’t appropriate for meal time talk.

            1. essEss*

              I had this same problem at a previous job. They would go in detail about bodily fluids and sickness. Polite attempts to jokingly ask them to change the subject didn’t work. I finally used my words and stated clearly that these graphic descriptions were causing me to become severely nauseated and I was very seriously struggling not to throw up while trying to eat my lunch in the lunchroom with them and that it was very unfair of them to have these types of conversations around others who are eating. They finally got the message and realized how they were affecting the people around them.

              1. Specialk9*

                “Hey boss, I’m uncomfortable with how often Jane and Kelly talk about their vaginas. I’ve asked them to stop, but they keep on, after saying that they know I don’t like it. How should I handle this?”

                How I’d fantasize about dealing with it. In real life it would be a fight I wouldn’t take on.

        2. boo*

          If I were the OP I would actually lean on “Ew, medical stuff while I’m trying to eat!” if she’s worried about asking the coworkers to lay off childbirth specifically. I think it is pretty easy to understand someone saying “Please, I can’t eat while we’re talking about blood and afterbirth.” (BTW solid joke on the “side of placenta,” OP, I laughed!)

          1. Rhoda*

            OP1, how about if you became an overly enthusiastic participant? Ask probing, detailed, intimate questions, “Did you see your mucus plug? What color was it?, I saw an episode of ‘Untold Stories of the ER’ where…, When my friend’s mother had her C-section…, When your water broke, did it just gush out, or did the baby’s head act as sort of a plug and cause it to simply trickle?” There are questions that don’t involve gore; “Did childbirth affect your sex life?, Did you experience stress incontinence as a result of childbirth?, Have you experienced any hair loss?”

            Or bring up other medical issues, “My mother has friends your age whose husbands have started using Viagra, have any of you found that helpful?”

            After all they have apparently made it clear there are no holds barred.

            1. Nita*

              That will backfire. I suspect OP’s coworkers would be really, really happy to share all the TMI with a fresh listener. They might even start buttonholing OP at the water cooler to fill her in on whatever they didn’t discuss at lunch.

              1. SusanIvanova*

                +1. I once worked at an office where the receptionist was young and pregnant, and a couple of other women were old enough to have several teenagers. *Every* time I saw the older ones at the front desk they were sharing pregnancy horror stories. It’s like there’s some compulsion to make sure the next generation knows everything the previous generation went through.

                1. Totally Minnie*

                  “Hey, I see that you’re about to go through a medical experience you may be nervous about. Allow me to describe to you all the ways it could go wrong.”

                  I know women have done this with pregnant acquaintances since the dawn of time, but it always just feels so mean.

                2. Cafe au Lait*

                  It’s an act of sharing knowledge. I just had a baby. I loved when other mothers shared their stories with me, the good and the bad. It helped me work through the level of intervention I wanted before my labor. After, the stories reassured me because my labor ended up being very difficult and hard and completely unexpected. (As in, I am seeing a therapist for issues surrounding my labor & delivery).

                3. Pregnophobic*

                  I sat next to a pregnant woman and she literally told me before she told her husband. I heard absolutely every detail of the pregnancy, constantly heard about her nausea and various pregnancy related issues, then she told me I had a year to find a man and have a baby when I became suddenly single days before my 29th birthday. I have no kids so I was just subjected to horror stories I couldn’t respond to or relate to every single day.

                  I don’t miss her and pregnancy talk makes me queasier than ever.

                4. Rana*

                  It’s because the popular impression of pregnancy and childbirth is limited and glosses over the truly unpleasant parts. You get big, you want to eat a lot, some stuff makes you throw up. Then your water breaks, you push and yell and squash someone’s hand, and there’s a baby. The end.

                  When in fact there’s a lot of weird, uncomfortable, and even nasty stuff that happens and it’s perfectly normal. So I think some people are being “helpful” – they were blindsided by it and don’t want anyone else to have that experience – and others are still processing the trauma of all that, because our culture doesn’t give us any better way to acknowledge what a mess pregnancy and birth can actually be.

                  This is an explanation, though, not an excuse. Don’t inflict horror stories on an unwilling audience, no matter the subject.

                5. Liz*

                  It’s not quite the same, but when I announced my engagement, several co-workers felt compelled to tell me all about their divorces. More than one person actually said “Not wanting to go through with it is a perfectly good reason not to go through with it.”

      2. Sylvan*

        I agree somewhat – I think I would agree more if they weren’t, apparently, getting pretty graphic with it. Nobody really needs to get that explicit about that part of their body at lunch.

      3. JessaB*

        I have to ask a question I haven’t seen yet, mind I haven’t read but half or so of the thread but, OP is there a reason why maybe they don’t want you at that table? Are they a mean clique who does not like you for some reason? I mean at the point where they’re clearly acknowledging you don’t want to hear this, are they TRYING to get you to go away? And if they are, is this something you want to deal with in a different manner?

        I hate to say it but we’re all discussing whether pregnancy talk is okay at work and not a lot about why a group of supposedly reasonable people (if they’re not ignore me,) is deliberately freezing OP out. They do not get to take the “we don’t know she doesn’t like this,” route, when they specifically TELL her they know she doesn’t. Is this tactic a specific attempt to control the space? And does that change the response to it at all?

        1. Annabelle*

          This seems a little more far-fetched than like, pregnant people and people who have had kids bonding over their experiences and not realizing how uncomfortable it makes other people.

          1. Just Tired*

            This was my experience. Two of my work friends were pregnant at the same time and reading all the same books. We didn’t have a central break area, so it wasn’t a break room conversation issue, but any time they came together, suddenly I was treated to conversations about mucus plugs, losing bowel control when giving birth, etc. I would say, “Nope, I’m out. Glad you have something to bond over, but this isn’t my thing.” When they asked me to go to lunch with them, I would give them a head’s up, “Overly graphic pregnancy conversation will result in me leaving, so if you really want to eat with me, please find subjects we can all discuss together.” Because, frankly, that’s what it came down to in that situation. If they wanted to be a social group, they should be considerate of everyone in the social group. OP’s situation is slightly different. If these aren’t friends of hers, trying to involve her in the conversation, she might not be able to do much to get them to stop talking about it, and is just going to have to change her lunch routine.

          2. JessaB*

            I only asked because they were specifically saying “we know you don’t like us talking about this,” and then going on and doing it anyway.

                1. Nines*

                  Got it! Thanks. I was so confused for a bit there. Apparently I did not read comments far down enough/closely enough.

        2. Clisby Williams*

          Does everybody eat lunch together? That sounds strange to me. I’m 64 and retired now, and never worked anywhere that co-workers expected to eat together If you don’t like the lunch conversation, eat somewhere else.

        3. SophieK*

          This crossed my mind.

          But I think maybe it’s more akin to my high school Home Ec teacher who announced the first day that she hates it when microwaving is referred to as “nuking.” Guess what word everybody went out of their way to say? And she was a veteran teacher, so the tactical error cannot be chalked up to being new.

          The other possibility is that they simply don’t appreciate the OP dictating what they can and cannot talk about. I used to accomodate requests like this, but one day a co worker who I didn’t like asked me not to swear. I apologized and then went waittaminute. Because this lady did nothing but talk about the contents of her granddaughters diaper and told gross stories about being a janitor at the Tacoma Dome. I asked her why she can talk about shit but I can’t say shit. And she shut up and I permanently lost a fuck thst day.

    2. Mad Baggins*

      Yeah, I was kind of surprised at this answer too. I would put this more in line with that time my [insert body part here] got infected, what color my poop was, who is going to Hell, and my romantic life with my anime boyfriend in the general “OK to talk about with some of your friends, not OK to talk about at work but won’t get you fired” category.

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          I am going to hell. I know that, because, well, I hate to admit it but…

          ….I laugh at my cats when they do stupid stuff.

        2. AKchic*

          When you sit on the throne, it’s a given that you will go there.

          Please feel free to stop by the Throne Room for your welcome hand basket and the wifi password if you happen to visit.

      3. Samata*

        I guess I am torn on this one. I think it’s inappropriate for work and to discuss around people who aren’t interested…but it’s also lunch. And unless its a working lunch people have a choice about where to spend it I might imagine. So it’s not the middle of the office during work hours.

        If they didn’t take her “hint” before but still continue after she specifically says “I don’t want to talk about this” then they move into bitch territory. I’ve had to start eating on my own because people only wanted to talk about their kids or pets and while an appropriate topic it’s still not always something I wanted to talk about or could even be a part of.

    3. Thursday Next*

      Agreed. Details about bodily functions, descriptions of medical procedures, or any topic that graphically describes something your body expels or a way in which it malfunctions should not be fodder for mealtime conversation, unless everyone within earshot is an enthusiastic participant. (I’ve given birth to two children and am not squeamish about discussing childbirth privately with people who ask me about it, as some pregnant women do.)

      It’s not limited to childbirth. I will say that the older my parents and in-laws get, the less appropriate their choice of mealtime conversation topics is. I…do not want to hear about their friends’ colonoscopies over brunch. And my kids definitely do not need to know about all the ways bodies can fail, in all the graphic glory grandparents seem eager to share!

      2. Sarah M*

        I agree, Thursday. I’ve had three kids. The first experience was a horror show (next two were C-sections). I’ve only shared the graphic details with my sister, a few close female friends and only those doctors who’ve needed to know. Everyone else gets the “We almost didn’t make it.” I can’t think of a situation other than a maternity ward where the continual graphic detailing of the childbirth process would be a normal (socially acceptable) conversation.

        OP 1: I hope you can use Alison’s advice to get them to stop. This is really not okay for work.

        1. OP1*

          They have figured out that I do not like the childbirth topic and now they preface stories with “OP1, you aren’t going to like this story- but …” and they just continue on talking about it.
          I’ve made some comments during their stories like “do we need to discuss this during lunch?” and “I’m sure this is interesting to you but I don’t like talking about this” but they really really want to keep talking about it. So sometimes before I sit down at lunch I’ll ask them “hey, what are you guys talking about?” and if they say “childbirth” or something like that I sit at a different table.

          1. Thlayli*

            That sounds like a good approach – asking what they’re talking about and then sitting elsewhere.

          2. Samata*

            Reading this after my comment above I think you are going to have to continue what you are doing. In your letter I thought you have-joked your way to saying you were uncomfortable but it sounds like they got the message and are ignoring it. Unfortunately it sounds like they aren’t going to change their ways.

          3. Samiratou*

            OK, seriously, these people aren’t just rude, they’re boring.

            Childbirth is the only thing you have to talk about? That’s maybe a lunch or two worth of conversation, not every damn day. Seriously people, get hobbies.

            2. Scarlet*

              Omg, yes. To be honest, everything becomes boring if it’s the sole subject of conversation.

            3. lost academic*

              Even my mother couldn’t have talked that long and she was a nurse who’d had three kids! (We each knew all of our birth stories in full medical detail)

            4. RVA Cat*

              They’re doing it to get to the OP. Sorry but they are not her friends. The “you’re not going to like this, but…” is the kicker. I hear that same thing all the time when my husband’s family brings up politics.

            5. Rana*

              Seriously. No one, even my very best friends, wants to hear my labor story more than once.

              I suspect they’re acting as each others’ therapists at this point, but, dang. If you’re not over it now, you need to talk with someone trained in helping you process trauma, not your echo chamber.

          4. Pollygrammer*

            Ugh, it actually sounds like you’ve made it about as clear as you can, and your coworkers are just massively inconsiderate.

          5. Nanani*

            I suspect at least some of these people are deliberately using the topic to make you go away. Very high school, but some people cling to those tactics forever.

            1. OP1*

              Eh I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion. I think they’re just in that stage of life where they are about to have babies or are nostalgic about when their kids where little. I expect it to cool down when the pregnant ladies are on maternity leave. Also they don’t exclusively do it around me, now that I eat separately more often I’ve heard a few other co-workers comment on how often they talk about childbirth.

          6. GreenDoor*

            Well, there you go. Next time they start in with ,”We know you won’t like this story bu…” immediately cut them off and say, in a quizzical yet pointed tone, “Wait. So you know I won’t like the story, but you’re going to tell it anyway? Huh.” And then just stare until they understand that their preface does not magically undo the fact that they’re doing something they know makes someone else around them uncomfortable.

            1. Plague of frogs*

              They like gross? Give them gross. Buy some fake blood capsules, and next time they start up, discretely bite one. Stare at them with blood running out of your mouth like Gene Simmons. When they ask you what’s going on, innocently say, “Oh, I’m sorry, I thought you really liked gore.”

              (Disclaimer: do not do this ever).

          7. AKchic*

            Yeesh. How many ways can you describe your labors and deliveries? I’ve had four kids and I don’t need to endlessly discuss them. Move on and find other topics! I don’t know if they are boorish, purposely stuck on reproductive loops, or purposely being catty for some reason, but I would permanently find another table to sit at, bring a book, and pop in some headphones. These people do not deserve your company.

          8. BananaPants*

            So accept that these people aren’t interested in having their discussion topics dictated by you, you’re clearly not into what they’re talking about, and find a new place to sit at lunch. This isn’t middle school, you can decide to dine elsewhere if the lunchtime conversation isn’t to your liking.

        2. Grapey*

          “I can’t think of a situation other than a maternity ward where the continual graphic detailing of the childbirth process would be a normal (socially acceptable) conversation.”

          Baby showers.

          I went to maybe 3 or 4 as a young adult when my family forced me to go. Never again.

      3. Like a Stone*

        > I will say that the older my parents and in-laws get, the less appropriate their choice of mealtime conversation topics is. I…do not want to hear about their friends’ colonoscopies over brunch.

        Oh my. This is happening to me, too. My father (mid 60s) described his colonoscopy prep bowel cleanse while we were eating. Apparently it didn’t clean him out properly and he went into detail about having to do another cleanse and reschedule the colonoscopy.

        He described all of this VERY loudly in the middle of a restaurant.

        I find poop funny (because I’m 12, apparently), but I don’t think everyone in a 5 table radius felt the same.

      4. aebhel*

        Same. I’ve had two kids and I’m not personally that bothered by discussion of the topic, but who on earth thinks that’s an appropriate conversation for lunch at work??

    4. Thlayli*

      Graphic descriptions of childbirth have been a topic of conversation at every single workplace I’ve ever been in with a pregnant or recently post-partum mother. So while a lot of people do think it’s gross and not appropriate for work, there are also a LOT of people who think it is an acceptable topic of conversation. It’s much more common than you seem to realise.

      Maybe this is a cultural thing, but I doubt it. Some people get grossed out by it here too. My younger sister who does not want kids and is grossed out by even the thought of pregnancy, hates it. But she works with 90% women so she basically has to just put up with it or make a fuss. She has elected not to make a fuss, which is her choice to do with politics in her workplace.

      I work with a lot of men and one of them has a baby on the way and the guys are all trying to gross him out with descriptions of when their wives gave birth, so it’s not just women who do it either. It’s really common.

      1. Mad Baggins*

        I wonder if this is the kind of thing where, once you go through it, it doesn’t seem that bad/squicky anymore so it’s OK to talk about. I can talk about surgeries I’ve had in detail but I don’t want to hear about anyone else’s.

        (Also by “cultural” perhaps you meant “work culture”? I’m certain this varies by country, and that might be something for new parents to keep in mind)

        1. Thlayli*

          I said cultural purely because a lot of people on this site are American and I’m not. I’ve never had this conversation in America so maybe it is genuinely considered h acceptable by a majority over there. But I do know of lots of people in my country who think it’s gross and don’t get why anyone would want to talk about it, so I think it probably doesn’t vary all that much by country, within western culture anyway. I haven’t worked in countries outside of western culture but I imagine it would probably be considered very rude in a predominantly Hindu workplace for example (I’m basing this on the fact that my friends auntie was scandalised by me wearing a bikini to a water park near Mumbai). It probably does vary by work culture though.

          I think you’ve hit the nail on the head re why most people feel it’s ok to talk about after they’ve been through it. When you’ve given birth there’s really very little mystery left. There’s a funny scene in scrubs where JD thinks about saying to a pregnant lady “you will pee fart and poop in a room full of strangers, all of whom will be staring intently at your vagina.” That’s not too far from the truth for a lot of births. Once you’ve been through something like that you just lose all inhibition.

          The good news the inhibition eventually grows back. My youngest is nearly 3 now and I hardly ever tell strangers about my private parts any more haha.

      2. anon scientist*

        I think I would start describing all the gross things about my dog and his bodily fluids.

          1. Thlayli*

            Then you would get people saying “are you comparing my child to your dogs poo?”

            I would tread lightly with that one.

            1. anon scientist*

              That was kind of my point – I assume they don’t want to hear about my gross stuff, I don’t want to hear about theirs either! To me, gross stuff=gross stuff, doesn’t matter who/what it comes out of.

              1. Thlayli*

                I think if you try that tack you will get plenty of people pushing back on the idea that their baby = gross stuff.

                1. anon scientist*

                  And they will get push back from me if they start discussing their torn perineum.

                3. Lara*

                  Or they’ll start telling you about all the gross stuff their baby does. If you don’t want to hear about childbirth, you really don’t want to get anybody started on meconium poops, baby mustard, blowouts in public, blowouts in car seats, blowouts while nursing, blowouts in bed… and that doesn’t even touch on the emissions from the top end of the baby.

              2. Observer*

                Do that only if you want to torch your relationships with a LOT of people. There are plenty of people who don’t find graphic discussions of childbirth work appropriate AT ALL, who would be very offended by this comparison.

                1. anon scientist*

                  Understood that my comparison was not the best. But the principle stance that I was trying to make was that there are topics that are not appropriate for a general/open/public conversation.

                  And with that, good day to all! Back to work.

              3. Jule*

                Nah, people are going to have a different reaction to you…literally comparing a pregnant woman giving birth to a dog excreting feces.

                1. Autumnheart*

                  More like literally comparing a pregnant woman excreting feces during birth with a dog excreting feces on some other occasion. If someone gets all offended like “How dare you compare my detailed description of my bodily fluids with those of a pet” then that person is part of the problem.

            2. Mike C.*

              In the specific context of topics that aren’t safe for work, absolutely.

              Just because some people relish in “the magic of motherhood and childbirth” doesn’t make the graphic discussion of such safe for work.

              1. Thlayli*

                You are perfectly entitled to that opinion. I’m merely pointing out that it’s sooo common that there are loads of people who do think it’s safe for work.

                I work in engineering so we have pretty filthy conversations – so ymmv. But my sister is a school teacher and she complains about these conversations in her workplace too.

                What’s safe for work seems to depend on the opinions of the majority, and in this situation it appears OP is the only one who dislikes it – so saying “that’s not appropriate” probably won’t fly in this situation. But I’m sure there are workplaces where it would not be considered appropriate. I’ve never personally worked anywhere where it wasn’t a welcome topic though.

                1. Mike C.*

                  No, it doesn’t depend on the opinions of the majority. I can’t sit at work and talk about how sexy the receptionist is in her figure-hugging dress even if all the other dudes around me vehemently agree, for instance.

                2. OP1*

                  I’m not the only person who doesn’t like it. Some of the other more junior women and most of the men don’t like it either. It’s not that I think it’s totally inappropriate all the time, it’s just I don’t want to be around when they talk about it and especially not at mealtimes. I think a bunch of my co-workers just have problems oversharing. One of my co-workers thought it was appropriate to describe to me how she avoided a hangover by making herself vomit. I said “That is really gross, why are you talking about this at lunchtime?” and she seemed startled that I didn’t view her story as funny like she did.

                3. Thlayli*

                  You can’t do that because sexual harrassment is illegal. Discussing childbirth is not illegal.

                4. newmom*

                  Well, there’s a big range in possible discussions about childbirth. I visited my workplace with my four week old (to say hi and attend a super important meeting). People asked how the birth was. I responded with things along the lines of “Fast, but uncomplicated!” “He came out so fast his face didn’t get smooshed at all!” “Next time I’ll know to head to the hospital sooner so I don’t have a baby in a car!” Stuff to indicate that the birth went fine but was a bit too fast/intense. I see this as not graphic and work appropriate discussion (others may disagree).

                  The “OMG the feeling of my vag ripping apart was the worst” and “I went from 6cm to baby out in half an hour and holy hell that 30 minutes was the worst of my life” and similar was reserved for close friends. I needed to complain about that stuff, but I wasn’t going to share it with coworkers!

                  (Also, I’d never share it with a pregnant woman! The last thing you need to hear before labor is how much it sucks. The only thing I shared with a pregnant colleague who asked was that things were fast, fine, and (mostly) manageable without drugs. I did not add “everything was fine until my vag started ripping!”)

                5. myswtghst*

                  “What’s safe for work seems to depend on the opinions of the majority”

                  Unfortunately for OP#1, I think this is the key. As Alison mentioned, if it’s outside the realm of sexual harassment or hostile workplace, even if it seems pretty obviously NSFW, it’s often a calculation of how much capital you have / want to use on trying to get it to stop. If OP#1 has spoken directly to them about not wanting to talk about this stuff at lunch and they continue anyway, they’ve pretty clearly shown they value their ability to talk about gross stuff over OP#1’s comfort, which means this is unlikely to change. It doesn’t mean they’re in the right, but it does kind of limit their options.

                6. Kate 2*

                  Mike C is right. Even leaving out talking about people at work, it STILL isn’t appropriate to let the majority dictate conversation at work.

                  Switch out childbirth for people graphically discussing sex and their kinks. Or for their medical procedures and surgeries. Discussing sex is just as intimate as having to hear about a coworkers torn perineum at work, or the color of their sh*t.

                  Just because the majority wants to talk about it doesn’t make it okay to make the minority uncomfortable or disgusted. Really that’s one of the excuses used to defend holding work lunches at Hooters.

        2. Amy S*

          I work in an office full of pet owners and this would totally be an acceptable and appropriate conversation to have. In fact, as I type this to coworkers are having a detailed conversation about their cats’ litter box habits. I think it’s a case of know your audience. In the case of OP #1 seems like a majority of people in the office are ok with it. It’s happening in a common space and not near her desk. I think the best option is to just walk away when the conversation turns to childbirth.

          1. OP1*

            Yeah it’s not that everyone 100% loves the childbirth talk, some of the other more junior women and most of the men don’t like it either.
            But lucky for me that gives me some options for avoiding the conversation.
            I think it’s really interesting in the comments how some people view childbirth as 100% ok topic for work and some view it as totally not ok.

            1. Amy S*

              That’s good if you have other people around who aren’t into it. I would just work on starting other conversations with them so that you’re otherwise engaged in conversation and listening to the childbirth talk. I am definitely on the side of this being an ok topic if other people are into it as well, but I can see why some people wouldn’t be into it.

      3. Bonky*

        It is important that pregnant women have people to talk to and are able to share worries, get information (medical professionals are amazingly bad about preparing you for some of what happens, and other women are by far your best source of facts), and normalise what can be a pretty scary time. Some women at work did share things with me when I was expecting my daughter, and I’m very glad they did. Perhaps OP1 could pull back a little from this group until the two pregnant ladies have given birth? The support they’re getting is probably of more weight to them than the discomfort OP1 is experiencing is to her.

        A caveat about very public pregnancy talk. I do have a baby girl now, but for years I thought I was unable to have kids (we had a lot of failed IVF attempts, and actually conceived her naturally when I was 41, when we’d given up on the IVF). Pregnancy/childbirth talk could be very upsetting back in the day, especially when we were going through yet another failed round; I knew which lunchtime groups to take part in and which to avoid when it was necessary.

        1. Sam.*

          It’s useful to share information, yes, but a group lunch is *not* the place for that unless everyone has specifically opted in. I know there’s a new moms lunch at my office – they get together once a month or so to share experiences, commiserate with challenges as working parents, etc. – maybe OP’s coworkers should consider something similar if they feel they must discuss such things.

          1. Sarah M*

            Yes, I do think that’s the key: everyone in the discussion opting in. Just loudly sharing it with everyone indiscriminately, whether they want to hear it or not, is pretty rude.

            1. Mike C.*

              Just because the participants “opt in” does not justify talking about nsfw topics. People can feel pressured to opt in and you can easily be overheard by others who didn’t.

            2. OP1*

              One lady in particular shares her childbirth story which each and every new female employee (including myself and no, I did not ask her- she just started in on the topic). I get that she had a bad experience and everything that could go wrong did, but I agree that it’s not something you bring up unless you know the other party is interested.

              1. Pollygrammer*

                That is actually my biggest problem with the childbirth talk you’re subjected to–they would probably be a lot more reasonable about avoiding it around you if you were male. Grrrr.

                1. newmom*

                  +1, particularly with childbirth.

                  And that’s not helpful. The more bad stories you hear, the more fearful you are, and the more fearful you are, the more likely you are to have complications.

                2. Andraste's Knicker Weasels*

                  And c’mon, people who have given birth, at least it’s not an eating disorder or cancer.

              3. Jennifer*

                I used to get cornered by a coworker where she’d tell me everything horrible about her pregnancy to make sure I never had kids. There was no need to argue that with me, mind you, I don’t want any, but…argh.

              4. swingbattabatta*

                I don’t understand this at all. My experience was so traumatic that I really don’t want to talk about it, and if pressed, will say something along the line of “I got sick, but we were both fine in the end”. Maybe it makes her feel better to tell the story over and over again, but I find that to be pretty unusual.

              5. LCCE*

                It’s possible she’s trying to process her experience in some way by retelling it. It’s not a free pass, for sure, but maybe it could help you understand her a little better.

          2. Quinalla*

            Agreed, there is nothing wrong with conversations about childbirth, etc. as long as the folks in the conversation are ok with it, especially in a shared lunch space at work. These conversations are important to have, but not everyone wants to participate or even hear a conversation like that and it is presumptuous to assume that just because someone is a women, etc. they are ok with it.

            I too would be more direct with them about it. Hopefully they will stop once they know!

            1. OP1*

              No, since I emailed in my question I have tried being more direct, but the women who do like this topic do not care that they are making myself (and other junior women, and the men) uncomfortable.
              I have said “does this need to be discussed at lunchtime?” and “I don’t like talking about medical stuff when I am eating” but they still want to talk about it.
              I’v started eating lunch at a different time and I switch tables sometimes if they start up after I join. I know switching lunch tables in the middle of lunch is a little rude but I pretend it’s about work stuff like “Oh, Steve, I didn’t see you come in to the lunch room- let’s sit over there and talk about client X”

              1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

                Eh, I don’t know if it’s rude at this point. If you’ve addressed it and others have as well and they’re STILL continuing on, well, switching tables is just returning the rudeness back.

              2. BadPlanning*

                I think that’s what you have to do. Sure it’s a little rude, but it’s rude to talk about gross stuff when everyone is eating and everyone is not okay with it. Whether it’s about a gross infected toe or birth adventure.

              3. KellyK*

                I want to reassure you that you are *absolutely not* the one being rude here. The people you’re eating with know that this makes you uncomfortable, because you told them, and they’re continuing, even saying “Oh, OP1, we know you don’t want to hear this.” I mean, you’re not stalking off in a huff or rolling your eyes or making snide comments, right? It’s your lunch break too, and there’s no obligation to share it with people who are deliberately grossing you out after you asked them to stop.

              4. a1*

                I don’t think it’s rude at all. They are the rude ones. They are forcing people to hear a conversation they don’t want to hear. They don’t care at all about what other people want to talk about. If they have no problem running rough shod like this, and don’t care at all about what you want to talk about, it’s on them when you leave. I wouldn’t even make an excuse. I’d just get up. They do not care.

              5. TootsNYC*

                I’m w/ the Princess: It’s not rude.

                Or, it’s a perfectly acceptable form of rude.

                They know; they are prioritizing their conversation over you. Give them what they want.

                Get up and move when they start. I might even say, “Gross, TMI, I’m outta here.” OR “I only sat with you guys because I thought you weren’t going to get gross again. Bye.”

                Don’t be -nasty- about it, but don’t hide the fact that you’re a little annoyed.

                1. Ave*

                  I think the proper response really depends upon the impact bugging out will have to her work.

                  For example, when I worked in A&D, one critical group would take smoke breaks together. If you didn’t smoke, or didn’t go out with them, your career would be damaged. They were gatekeepers.

                  If it is a peeer group that isn’t career critical? Not as important?

                  Who is in the group? Anyone important to OPs career? Is the group itself important?

                2. Jersey's mom*

                  I’m on board with this. It’s not rude.

                  In fact, this group of women are being rude AT you. You have clearly stated you do not want to hear this discussion. They heard you. In fact, they preface their comments with “Oh, I know you won’t want to hear this but….”. That is clearly being rude AT you.

                  You can certainly take the civilized route of getting up and stating, “As I’ve mentioned, I cannot listen to this type of conversation over lunch”, getting up and walking away. You are not being rude!

                3. Autumnheart*

                  Get up and say, loudly enough for the whole room, “I’m sorry, Barbara, but I just can’t listen to yet another conversation about your vagina and placental abruption! I have no idea why you keep bringing it up day after day!” Then sit at another table while a deafening silence falls over the room.

              6. essEss*

                I don’t pretend that it’s for work stuff. If they’ve been told that the gory stuff is making you ill and they continue to do it, they need to be aware of the impact that it has on others including that they are forcing people to move to avoid them.

              7. Rusty Shackelford*

                I know switching lunch tables in the middle of lunch is a little rude but I pretend it’s about work stuff like “Oh, Steve, I didn’t see you come in to the lunch room- let’s sit over there and talk about client X”

                It’s not rude at all, considering that they insist on having conversations that they know you find disturbing. They’re the ones being rude, not you. Next time, laugh and say “Oh, you guys are back on that topic? Guess it’s time for me to go.”

              8. foolofgrace*

                I wouldn’t even bother with the “Steve” pretense. THEY are the ones being rude. If it were me, I’d get up, go to a different table, and put earbuds or even big-a$$ headphones on and crank some tunes. As I left their table, I would probably say “Sorry, I just can’t listen to this.”

              9. Artemesia*

                What I find weird is that they discuss is all the time. I can imagine discussing it among women especially soon after and then the other women sharing, but continually? I could have the best theater experience of my life and talk about it all one lunchtime, but then it has been discussed. Or my vacation. Or an incident at my kid’s school. But why would they discuss the same thing day after day? I have had children and one pretty terrifying birth and one easy one and I have certainly discussed these with other women when they were discussing childbirth — but I don’t recall ever discussing all this with the same group of women repeatedly. For this to be the problem it is for the OP this needs to be frequent. How weird is that?

              10. AKchic*

                It sounds like they’ve created an ersatz lunchtime talk-therapy group, and have roped everyone eating lunch within the same room into this group as a non-optional attendee.
                I can only hope that some new woman is given the sob story and shuts it down spectacularly with “Carol, I don’t care, leave me alone to eat my lunch without the gory details of your vaginal discharge.”
                And seriously, it has been brought up to them repeatedly that people *don’t* want to hear about their vaginal excretions, tearing, labor and deliveries, and pregnancies in general. It’s in the past, they have discussed the events to the point of staff memorization. Management should probably be notified. It is getting ridiculous.

          3. CheeryO*

            Yes, that would be perfect. Nonstop baby talk is boring anyway, not to mention potentially hard for anyone who would like to have kids and doesn’t, and the birthing details are really TMI for lunchtime. I’d expect it at a work baby shower, but anywhere else deserves a little pushback, imo.

        2. Thlayli*

          Very good point about it being beneficial for the pregnant ladies. I knew a woman once, born about 60 years ago. Her mother thought she was going to come out of her belly button when she went into the hospital! The last thing we ant to do is go back to the bad old days when childbirth is a hush-hush secret topic and women don’t know what to expect.

          obviously these days it’s very rare for someone to not understand the basic mechanics, but it’s often surprising how little people know about the details. If you don’t know that your perineum might tear, it’s a lot scarier when it happens. And if you know that perineal massage can reduce the risk of it tearing, you might be able to do that and avoid the tear altogether.

          Not wanting women to talk about perineal massage because it’s “yucky” is basically saying “my feelings about what is acceptable conversation are more important than giving you the info you need to prevent your perineum from tearing.”

          By all means ask them to keep the details till after the food has been consumed, or just sit at another table, but don’t tell people not to share useful info with pregnant ladies.

          1. Mike C.*

            Just because “it’s helpful to pregnant women” doesn’t mean you get to ruin lunch or otherwise create a work environment that’s incredibly uncomfortable for others. No one is generally going to work for the sake of someone else getting pregnancy information, so I’m at a complete loss to understand why work is an appropriate place to discuss these issues publically.

            It’s not work safe.

            1. anon scientist*

              Totally agree! Also with your comment below. They can find another setting where it is more appropriate. Or just go get a coffee with each other and discuss whatever they want.

            2. Lindsay J*

              Yeah, I mean, it could be helpful to someone and important for their relationship to discuss options for having enjoyable sex with someone whose penis is rather small, or rather large. That doesn’t mean it necessary or appropriate to discuss it at work.

              Or how they have vaginismus.

              Or, to take this outside of the realm of sex since pregnancy isn’t equivalent to sex- it could be helpful and important for someone to discuss their struggles with anorexia or bulimia. Or how they came home one day to find that their sibling had committed suicide and how you could see their brain through the gunshot wound. Or their struggles with or recovery from alcoholism or drug addiction. There might even be people in at work that could understand and be supportive. That doesn’t mean that work is an appropriate place for that discussion to happen.

          2. Nita*

            Good point, but lunch really doesn’t seem like a good time to discuss that, because someone’s bound to lose their appetite. Also the chatters are going to have a captive audience of whoever else is eating near them. They can have this discussion elsewhere, people always find a few minutes to chat in most offices. Besides, there are so many other source of this information now… if the chatters think they’re performing a vital public service, they may be giving themselves too much credit :)

            I’m also kind of scratching my head that this seems to be a regular discussion. I would think this topic would exhaust itself after a few days, after everyone has shared their horror stories!

            I think Allison’s advice is sound – all OP can do is ask them to stop, but they don’t seem to be violating any rules, just being really inconsiderate.

            1. Rounded*

              Aren’t there specifically classes offered by midwives or nurses aimed at preparing women for childbirth? I honestly get so Squamish and can easily vomit at gore or graphic tales during lunchtime and would be pretty upset when my break time is ruined by continually war stories about giving birth. It would affect my work performance so I agree with Alison here.

              1. Nita*

                Yes, there are classes! I took one at a hospital. They managed to strike a nice balance with getting all the info across without getting really, really graphic.

          3. OP1*

            They are not exclusively talking about perennial massages or breathing techniques. Actually I haven’t heard those topics come up (yet). To me sometimes it seems like a contest of who had a harder birth like “Oh yeah? Well I was in agony every time my husband drove over a pothole for months! I was bleeding from my V*** to my A***”
            “Oh yeah? Well I was in labour for TWO DAYS before I had an emergency c-section and I could see the doctor lifting out my intestines to be able to get the baby out!!!”
            ps I’ve excluded some of the grosser details from those stories… you’re welcome.
            I’m sure it is useful for pregnant women to hear the stories of other women, but there is a time and a place for such conversations. If I was talking about my period with a group of friends outside of work but I could tell I was making one of them uncomfortable I would change the subject. And I would not talk about medical stuff/body stuff during mealtimes.

            1. Thlayli*

              Ah, the childbirth pain olympics. Yeah that does get tiresome. I can’t see how they are dragging that out for weeks!

              It sounds like you have other options at lunch though since there are other women and men who don’t like talking about it… so the easy thing to do is just sit elsewhere.

              1. Elspeth*

                Yeah, but that doesn’t excuse the co-workers’ rudeness. Having such TMI/NSFW conversations often, when others have asked them not to – I mean, really, don’t they have anything else to talk about?

            2. someone else was using the same name*

              Going to be honest, I don’t have kids and I didn’t know what perennial massages were. My face after Google must have been pretty priceless! I would maybe try to create a separate table with the others who don’t want to hear the pregnancy talk and talk about sports or movies or pets. If you have a couple people joining you, you might be able to tune the others out.

          4. Episkey*

            Actually, when I was pregnant, I hated this! I do NOT want to hear your horror stories when I’m about to go through the same thing! It just makes me more anxious as a first time mom.

            1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

              Same!! Like I said in a comment below, my memories of being pregnant or giving birth are pretty rusty, since it all took place in the 90s, but one thing I do remember is that horror stories were THE LAST thing I wanted to hear when I was pregnant!

            2. Lindsay J*

              Yeah. I have not been pregnant before. And honestly, a lot of these types of stories – plus the stereotype of your life being over as soon as you have a kid – scare me off of wanting to ever have kids.

              It took some of my best friends getting pregnant and having kids, and having relatively normal experiences, for me to reconsider. Like yes, your perineum might split all the way down, but it might not. Your kid may be colic-y and scream and cry all day and nigh, but it might not.

              1. Grapey*

                I saw “the miracle of birth” video when I was like 10 years old in sex ed and that closed up my shop forever. Guh-ross.

            3. CarrieT*

              I agree. To all women with birth horror stories – do NOT tell them to first-time pregnant women! Scaring people absolutely leads to worse outcomes in childbirth! I actually had a wonderful, positive birth experience, and I wish that all women could go into it knowing that it has the potential to be beautiful, empowering, fascinating, etc. Pain is made worse by fear and tension, so it’s ideal to go into birth expecting the best rather than fearing the worst.

            4. Clisby Williams*

              Really! I used to tell expectant mothers the story of my father’s first cousin. She was admitted to the hospital to give birth to her first child, and at some point a nurse comes in, realizes the baby is about to be born, and gets her rushed off to the delivery room. Later, they said “WHY didn’t you call us?” She said, “I kept waiting for the pain to get really bad.”

          5. Scarlet*

            There is a time and a place for sharing this type of information though. I think all of us here agree on the importance of sex ed, but would it be acceptable for colleagues to discuss about vaginal dryness and the comparative merits of lube brands at the office? I think not. It’s not like the ONLY time people can communicate is at work…

            Also, let’s not forget that this kind of conversation could be upsetting and exclusionary for people who are currently struggling with infertility or who have had a miscarriage.

          6. justcourt*

            What?! Asking people you’re eating lunch with to not share graphic medical stories is not unreasonable. Asking people to not ask their coworkers to not share is extremely unreasonable, though.

          7. Annabelle*

            Lots of conversations that are both incredibly work- and lunch-inappropriate would be helpful. I have a handful of somewhat common chronic health conditions and expounding upon my symptoms would probably be helpful to other people with my diagnoses, but that doesn’t make it a totally fine and okay mealtime conversation.

          8. Plague of frogs*

            This is like saying it’s OK to talk about sex at work because in the past people weren’t properly educated about it. It’s not.

          1. Bonky*

            As I mentioned above, doctors and medical professionals are kind of rubbish at telling pregnant women about a lot of what happens to your body, and how to mitigate it. I think it’s out of a misplaced politeness, or a patronising “she’s better off not knowing”. And I would have loved time to visit a specialised support group when I was expecting – but I have a very demanding job which meant my ability to find spare time was very curtailed, especially with obstetric appointments in the mix. And as far as I’m aware, outside the UK’s NCT classes (which tend to push a “natural birth” ideology and are surprisingly politicised – not my cup of tea) there’s nothing like that in my area anyway. I was lucky to have good friends and yes, kind colleagues.

            I gather from your username that you haven’t given birth.

            2. Gwenhwyfar*

              There’s still the option of discussing whether they should get together some *other* time to discuss it, not while I’m trying to eat my food. Sharing information is great, but are you really going to argue that these people do not have access to, say, the internet? Or other women?

              Also, that last add-on about their username was uncalled for. Mike can be a name for someone who can/has given birth. It’s rude to assume.

              1. grace*

                All of this. I’m just beyond perplexed by the thought that ‘sharing information’ has more weight than someone’s discomfort with a conversational topic.

                There are so many other venues where this topic may be appropriate; lunch at work is so, so not one of them.

                1. Tuxedo Cat*

                  I agree. I can’t tell but I know in some workplaces, I could literally not be sitting at the same table and still hear the entire conversation. The break room simply wasn’t that large. I suppose I could take lunch to my desk but I still had to microwave it and wait around for it.

                2. TootsNYC*

                  yes! OK, so you find out that a coworker might find your anecdotes helpful; you have that convo somewhere more private, even at work–maybe you stop after work by the car for a little bit, or something.

              2. Specialk9*

                Who gets information on pregnancy and childbirth from doctors? (What, in the 7 minutes they have with you?) I was glued to Baby Center online, and other online forums. I also really appreciated “Pregnancy Sucks”, because it was funny, and it brought up a lot of weird stuff to expect (and a few things even I didn’t experience, so that was nice!) but not in a complaining way.

                Pregnancy is like this great entry for all the secrets – people pop up to tell you all kinds of awful things about having kids. My brother and his wife (previously all ‘everything is great!’) got gleeful looks when I announced my pregnancy, and spent a half hour straight listing all the ways children ruin one’s life. Thanks guys!

                I had a terrible rough pregnancy and childbirth (like BAD), then several weeks in the hospital, then 2 years recovering. But even I only tell the mildly amusing stuff – weird smell aversions and working through it – or the super high level description.

                I would *not* tell this stuff to a pregnant lady (or if I accidentally did, somehow, to someone not showing I’d reassure them with all the reasons I was high risk and don’t worry you definitely won’t have this happen). Because it’s really cruel to scare people who are likely already scared.

              3. SarahTheEntwife*

                Yes! I’m pretty open about talking about medical stuff, and have definitely gone “oh, you’re having (procedure/surgery/thing)? I went through that last year; let me know if you ever want to chat” with coworkers. But I don’t talk about it all the time in the lunchroom, because *not everyone wants to know about the contents of my gall bladder*.

            3. anon scientist*

              There are lots of topics where talking to other people who have had similar experiences would be helpful, but are not appropriate for a group lunch. Should everyone have to hear about my IBS or Crohn’s disease just because I find out my coworker has IBS/Crohn’s, and we want to discuss it but have busy lives and can’t go to an outside support group? Probably not. IBS-coworker and I can take a break together sometime and discuss it without making everyone else suffer through the discussion.

              1. Thlayli*

                If you and a fellow IBS sufferer are eating lunch together and someone else joins, is it not on them to decide to leave if they don’t like the conversation?

                In this case it seems OP is the odd one out and everyone else is on board with the topic – to stick with your analogy it’s as if OP is going for lunch with s group of IBS sufferers and she is the only one not affected. And up till now it seems OP has not made any real effort to explain how much she dislikes the topic.

                Plus, as I said above, many people would take offence to the idea that talking about defecation is comparable to talking about birth. Poo != baby.

                1. anon scientist*

                  You also commented above that there are workplaces where you are where a discussion like this is not appropriate so I am confused why you insist that the coworkers should continue to discuss this.

                  And actually if a coworker showed up during my IBS discussion, I would stop discussing the IBS, or tell the coworker that I’m sorry, we’re having a private lunch to discuss private issues. Additionally, IBS and Crohn’s are not all = poo issues either.

                  I think we can agree to disagree whether talking about graphic birth stories is appropriate for an open/public lunch conversation.

                2. Sam.*

                  If you set up a lunch time and space specifically to discuss very personal common experiences, I think you alert anyone who wanders in that the conversation is for that specific purpose (or you stop talking about that thing, if that makes more sense). That whole situation is very different than discussing it with a large group of people in a common space who are mostly there for a 30 minute socialization break before they go back to work. Don’t get me wrong: I think it’s extremely valuable to share this information! But you have to pick your setting.

                  I also think it’s also worth keeping in mind that people constantly fixating on a single topic is usually unwelcome, even if it is a topic that’s generally considered SFW.

                3. Thlayli*

                  I don’t get what’s confusing? There are some workplaces (like Mike C’s and yours) where talking about childbirth is not the done thing. There are some workplaces (like every one I’ve ever worked in and OPs) where talking about childbirth is accepted and welcomed by the majority.

                  The point that I’m making is not “it’s always acceptable”. The point I’m making is that it’s very common and in lots of workplaces it is acceptable. It’s a “know your workplace / audience” thing, not a “this is a banned topic from every workplace ever” thing.

                  Op has posted above that she has the option of sitting at another table, which is what she’s doing.

                4. Tuxedo Cat*

                  I think the point is generally to err on the side of caution. There are tons workplaces where things are acceptable because either everyone is afraid to say something or the norms are off.

                5. TootsNYC*

                  I would say it’s not polite to discuss at in the lunchroom at work where people can overhear. If the lunchroom is such that we can discuss it without other people hearing, and then someone joins us, I would say that we should wrap it up and move on to a topic of interest to all of us, and that is not about bodily fluids and bodily functions.

                6. myswtghst*

                  Ran out of nesting so this is a response to the responses…

                  We can comment til we’re all blue in the face about how it’s an inappropriate subject for work, but based on OP#1’s follow up comments, it sounds like it’s unlikely to stop or change. So while it might be reassuring for OP#1 to know that people feel for her / agree with her, it isn’t likely to lead to helpful advice, because confronting the coworkers full of righteous anger about how people on the internet agree that their topic of choice for lunch convos is inappropriate is more likely to start drama than it is to make things better (not that I think OP#1 is planning to do this, for the record).

                  You might not agree with Thlayli, but they have a point – if a group of people clearly find value in these conversations, to the point that they continue having them even after OP#1 has clearly stated they’d rather not hear about the topic at lunch, there is probably not much OP#1 can do to change their minds. That means that strategies like finding other people to eat lunch with or leaving when the conversation turns to birth talk are OP#1’s best bet to avoid the topic.

                7. Joielle*

                  I have a feeling I’m in a serious minority here, but… obviously poo is not literally the same as a baby, but I think the analogy is still valid. The point is that you can’t talk about things coming out of genitals at work. Or, at the VERY least, you can’t talk about them at work with people who don’t want to talk about them.

            4. Nita*

              So? He can still have an opinion about this. You don’t have to be a woman to be able to imagine yourself trying to eat, while someone is loudly discussing how much blood they lost right next to you. I agree doctors aren’t great with this sometimes and that there’s nothing wrong with seeking out support wherever you can find it, but that does not mean the discussion with coworkers has to happen *in the lunchroom at mealtime.*

            6. Decima Dewey*

              I haven’t given birth either, and I’m a woman. I do have a horror story involving my own birth that I would never tell over food.

              No one wants to hear about what effect my diabetes medication sometimes has on my digestive tract. There’s a time to tell the story of my spectacular case of appendicitis, and the branch potluck isn’t that time.

            7. Annabelle*

              There are lots of free pregnancy focused groups online that would surely be helpful to people who appreciate these conversations. And there are surely other resources that don’t depend on making one’s coworker’s uncomfortable.

              I think it’s great that we’ve gotten to a point, culturally, where it’s the norm for people to talk about what actually happens during childbirth. But that still doesn’t mean everyone needs to hear it or that lunch in the office is the appropriate forum.

              1. CarrieT*

                I agree that it’s great that conversations about childbirth are happening, although detailed descriptions of body parts, fluids, and medical issues probably don’t belong in the office lunchroom. Literally every human has gone through childbirth (being born) and yet most people know nothing about it and find it scary or icky. We balk at the unfamiliar, but it’s worthwhile to try to overcome our reflexes. Childbirth is natural, normal, incredible, and absolutely safe for the majority of women.

                1. Annabelle*

                  This isn’t about the unfamiliar. It’s about being considerate enough to realize that some topics are both incredibly fraught and personal and just don’t belong in some spaces. There’s a massive stigma surrounding menstruation as well, but I choose not to gleefully inform my colleagues about the cysts I get every time I’m on my period.

                  There is a time and place to change the way we talk about or view certain things, and I really don’t think the office break room will ever be that place.

                2. Annabelle*

                  I also think it’s telling that the general instinct in the comments is that people don’t want to talk about this because it’s unfamiliar. Realistically, there are just as many people who dislike these conversations because they’ve had a traumatic childbirth experience of their own, or maybe they’ve recently miscarried, or had a stillborn child.

                  There are so many different reasons why someone would rather not talk about this stuff with coworkers. It’s not necessarily just people being squeamish or naive.

                3. Mike C.*

                  Again, just because you find childbirth to be magical and full of wonder doesn’t mean I need to hear about it during my lunch at work. Why is this so hard to understand?

                  I don’t subject my coworkers to intense discussions about politics, different genres of trance music, cartoon robots or personal medical issues because as a social animal I understand that these topic bore, upset, anger or embarrass those listening.

                  Why should the graphic details of childbirth be treated any differently? Why force it on other people? Why do I need to “overcome my reflexes”?

                4. MizA*

                  Sure, it’s natural and awesome and full of wonder. And it’s supergreat to want to demystify things! But you don’t know if your coworker has miscarried or might be dealing with infertility or might be scared shitless of the birthing process or might just be tired of all the birthin’ talk. Unless it’s a conversation everyone’s buying into, its place isn’t the only shared mealtime.

          2. Health Insurance Nerd*

            I agree. I’ve given birth twice and have never felt compelled to share the dirty details over lunch with coworkers. If someone wants to join a moms group there are PLENTY of options that don’t include having inappropriate conversations at work and alienating people who’d rather talk about less stomach-churning topics!

            (I’ve seen a bunch of your comments and people seems to be reacting pretty strongly, but I’m with you 100%)

        4. Tuxedo Cat*

          There’s other options… They can go grab coffee together, the pregnant people can join a group.

          I’ve gone through plenty of scary things where I could use support (multiple deaths, a traumatic medical incident, being stalked and abused, a sickly partner). It was helpful to talk to others, but I wouldn’t graphically be talking about these things at work.

        5. Anon-a-mouse*

          Was going to say something similar. Recently I was stuck in the middle of a protracted conversation about pregnancy and childbirth and one of the participants turned to me helpfully to explain what a certain blood test meant. I snapped at her “I know what that is, I’ve been pregnant before I just never ended up with a baby.” Met with dead silence and a change of topic, which was welcome, but I did feel bad for snapping at her.

          1. JessaB*

            Yes but when you’re discussing something as emotionally and socially fraught as pregnancy you run the risk of saying something to someone who wanted to be pregnant and couldn’t be or who lost a baby or any other number of reasons why a lot of places think this is a bad thing to talk about.

            I am sorry you went through that but your snapping at them wasn’t necessarily a bad thing to do. Sometimes people have to hear that to realise that what they’re saying can be hurtful. And sometimes good, nice people snap at you when you say something hurtful whether you meant it or not. (See standing on my foot meme.)

            Which is why any conversation about pregnancy should be strictly OPT IN and people should be kind about it.

          2. Plague of frogs*

            I’m glad you did snap at her. People are really, really thoughtless around this. I am childless by choice, and I’ve had a lot of comments made to me that were mildly annoying, but would have been heartbreaking if childlessness wasn’t my choice.

            1. Specialk9*

              I’m glad you snapped too. It was exactly right, and I hope they learned a lifelong lesson.

          3. MizA*

            Your reaction was intense, but not out of line. I’ve been there too. Sometimes people need a little reminder.

          4. Like a Stone*

            I agree it’s not your fault for snapping at her. But this is exactly, exactly why such topics can be painful and not just unwanted.

      4. Shop Girl*

        It’s really common in every workplace I have ever worked in. I think the reason is that this is how younger women learn about childbirth, traditionally. Is it still true in the modern workplace? I think wherever women are together these conversations are inevitable.
        I was fortunate (through nothing I did, just pure luck) to have had easy births. I tell my story to expectant mothers all the time because it isn’t all horrible.

        1. Q*

          No. No, it is not. I don’t want to be taught about childbirth by my coworkers. That’s just creepy and uncomfortable and weirdly maternalistic.

          1. Scarlet*

            “No. No, it is not. I don’t want to be taught about childbirth by my coworkers. That’s just creepy and uncomfortable and weirdly maternalistic.”

            THIS, 100%. Also, some of us have no plans on getting pregnant ever and do not want to “traditionally learn” anything from their oversharing coworkers, thankyouverymuch.

        2. Ave*

          Traditionally, we lived on farms or near them. We lived huddled together in cities, Kids were delivered at home. Girls as you as 4 were in the room to help. There was no privacy. So girls saw birth of siblings, cousins, etc.

          There is no tradition of talking about this at work. At least in the USA.
          Unless you consider the past 50 years of women in the workforce long enough to be a tradition.

          I’m not trying to call you out specifically here. However, a lot of things we think are “traditional” are less tha 100 years old as practices.

          We need to be really wary of using words such as traditional, normal, or typical.

          1. Thlayli*

            I think the point Shop Girl was making is that since we no longer have that sort of community learning outside of work, it is being partly replaced by learning from older female coworkers.

            This is obviously not everyone’s experience, but I personally have had older female coworkers and younger female coworkers and have had this sort of “transfer of knowledge from older woman to younger woman” type conversation.

            I agree with you that it’s not universal, but it definitely does happen for lots of women.

            I’ve worked in high female ratio and all-female workplaces and these types of conversations are definitely a part of workplace experience for a lot of people.

            1. Ave*

              That well may be, but it’s still not “traditional.”

              That’s a very loaded word. Often used to justify behavior with no other points to support it.

              That’s, all.

              1. Like a Stone*

                Exactly, it’s also traditional to marry of children in my culture, or to stone gays to death. That doesn’t mean we do that shit here in the states.

            2. Autumnheart*

              Yeah, now we have the Internet, where we can traditionally learn these things on communities with thousands of members from all over the world, and from actual medical resources like Mayo.org.

              It is patently ridiculous to argue that one “needs” to learn about childbirth from their fellow teapot designers in the office break room. It’s 2018 and we have Google now.

              It’s also ridiculous to try to argue “tradition” about information concerning childbirth when TRADITION also dictates that you don’t gross out your dining companions by talking about bodily functions at the table! Especially not when they have already expressly asked you not to do that.

              1. Specialk9*

                Especially since the things that people pass on about childbirth and having children is often questionable, to downright harmful.

          2. Shakti*

            Haven’t women been working forever? I don’t think it’s a in the last 50 years thing. I agree though that learning about child birth from your colleagues is not helpful or appropriate. When I was pregnant I desperately wanted out of all child birth stories at work and in general

        3. Pollygrammer*

          This is a strange and kind of dictatorial assertion. Not all younger women want to learn about childbirth. I don’t actually know any young women who want to learn about childbirth from coworkers.

          1. Jules*

            +1. If and when I become pregnant I will be learning from the wise and maternal internet. I’ve worked for years so that my coworkers (male and female) see me and competent and confident. I don’t want want that image replaced by “ignorant and terrified, won’t be able to manage without hearing about my torn perineum”.

        4. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          That was not how I learned about childbirth (and I worked in a team at the time that was 50% women, was the youngest of them all by ten years, and all but one of my female coworkers had kids, so it’s not like I never got an opportunity to learn from them) and I still somehow managed to not screw mine up.

          Seriously, in this age of easily accessible information, why on earth would younger women reach out to coworkers to learn about childbirth? Among other things, I don’t want to know the details of how my colleagues gave birth. Unless they are also my close friends, and want to tell me as a friend.

        5. Annabelle*

          I don’t think this is typically how younger women learn about pregnancy. Most young people have someone in their life who has had kids, probably more than one person. I learned pretty much everything I know about childbirth from non-coworkers who have children.

        6. LCCE*

          THANK YOU. We need more women to tell expectant moms that there are stories out there that are not horror stories.

        7. Like a Stone*

          Traditionally, women did not work outside the home, so there were no workplaces in which they learned about childbirth. They learned the same way we learn about periods, from mothers/sisters/aunts/other relatives or friends. I’ve worked in four different offices, two of which were female dominated, and this was at most an occasional discussion topic.

          1. Bleeborp*

            It clearly differs by workplace and your definition of “traditional.” I’ve worked in a couple female dominated field and have had many, many graphic conversations with fellow female coworkers about their births. I wouldn’t say that’s the primary way people learn about childbirth of course BUT it is a scenario where I’m around older women that I wouldn’t usually be friends with outside of work but we spend a lot of time together and it comes up and it’s educational in a way (in that they have had children and I have not.) I don’t have/want kids but I find it fascinating and am not easily made squeamish so I always welcome it and would probably be at that break room table savoring all the graphic pregnancy information. Obviously, if you don’t like your coworkers or you are easily made squeamish or just don’t like hearing about pregnancy for whatever reason, you don’t want to encourage this kind of conversation but if you show interest you can “learn” about different kinds of pregnancies and births in a way that I find really interesting. I had one coworker with 4 kids and she had each one differently- epidural not induced, epidural and induced, c section, and no epidural or induction- her insights were so interesting! And I don’t think it’s always inappropriate work conversation just because it involves the body but of course people should be considerate about the people around them and their comfort level.

      5. Katie the Fed*

        as a recently pregnant woman, this actually drove me crazy. Everyone seemed to want to tell me ALL about their horrible birth experiences (or worse). People I barely knew told me about how they were in labor for 48 hours, how they delivered at 27 weeks, and one woman even wanted to tell me all about her stillborn baby. PLEASE JUST STOP.

        1. Bonky*

          Yeah – I had one colleague who spent my whole pregnancy telling me about all the terrible things that would definitely, inevitably happen to me, or blight my baby. Another colleague told her to put a sock in it. Most of my workmates were very helpful, though, and many told me things I was glad to learn.

          It’s not just colleagues who do the “dreadful things will happen” thing; it’s women (of my acquaintance) in general; I have no idea why people do it. Men I know have a similar thing, only about parenthood: lots of moaning about how much worse life is with a child. I made a resolution NEVER to do the same. (Helped by the fact that I think life with a child is pretty brilliant.)

        2. Parenthetically*

          YES. “Oh god, I lost twenty pounds my first pregnancy because I couldn’t keep ANYTHING down! I had a third degree tear! I had to have PT! Diastasis recti! NICU! HELLP syndrome!” and on and on. I want to hear positive stories, if anything, and get a dose of reality from my closest friends ONLY.

        3. OP1*

          Yeah I’m still on the fence about the whole children vs. childfree decision but hearing these conversations has filled me with dread if I ever decide to take the plunge into motherhood. Having a baby sounds like everything that happens after conception is just plain awful.

          1. Q without U*

            I wonder what would happen if you said that one day. Do you think it would be eye-opening for them, or would they think you were just joking?

          2. newmom*

            As someone who has not slept more than 3 hours at a stretch in 8 weeks (5 week old kid + miserable last 3 weeks of pregnancy), I am inclined to agree with you. I also hate people who claim their X week old was sleeping through the night. B**** don’t tell that to a new mom who has a baby who only sleeps 2 hours at a time and only while being held by people.

            Childbirth was fine, though (and I had no drugs). I’d do it all over again just for a single good night’s sleep. I need sleep.

            1. Katie the Fed*

              @newmom – solidarity! My 10-week old is still waking up 2-3 times a night. The people whose babies slept through the night at 4 weeks REALLY seem to want to tell me about it.

            2. Specialk9*

              One of my two pieces of advice to new parents is this (which is the opposite of what every parent told *me*, and of what every article I read said):

              You will sleep again. Really. Hang in there, it’s tough, but it gets better.

              The other is that it’s totally normal to *want* to throw the baby out the window sometimes, but the trick is not to *actually* throw the baby out the window. You’re not a bad person or parent, though.

              That’s all I got.

          3. Kyrielle*

            Well, if it helps: I’ve had two kids. The first one was rough and I suppose I could go toe-to-toe with some of your coworkers if I wanted to emphasize those parts, but I recovered fully and he’s fine and an awesome kid. The second one wasn’t rough at all (and he’s an awesome kid too).

            There are lots of things that can be a problem during childbirth, and if you decide to take the plunge I recommend researching them *because* some can be made less likely and others are more distressing if you don’t know they might happen.

            But it’s not inevitably going to be horrible. Neither of mine were horrible, actually – it’s all in what you talk about. There are parts of pregnancy and childbirth that are unpleasant, but for most people it’s not 24/7 misery, I don’t think.

          4. Nita*

            It’s not necessarily that bad. You’re probably getting the worst stories, exaggerated for extra effect. I agree with newmom that the lack of sleep afterwards is the worst thing ever, but I won’t give you my horror story here :) especially because after talking to other people, it seems I’ve drawn the short end of the stick and most kids sleep much better than mine.

          5. Nanani*

            Don’t tell this group your reproductive plans. I have a very strong hunch that the grossness will increase AND you’ll get an earfull on how you’re doing everything wrong.

          6. Lindsay J*

            Yeah, I commented about this above.

            I’m 32, and only in the past year when a couple of my closest friends gave birth and it wasn’t traumatic and their life didn’t end immediately did I start to reconsider. And yes, I still know it wasn’t all sunshine and daisies. But it was the first time I got an actual balanced picture rather than just the child birth horror story Olympics.

            These types of things put me off of the idea of kids and pregnancy specifically for close to a couple decades. (Like, I think I’ve been hearing about how terrible child birth is from other women since I was old enough to get my period.)

            1. newmom*

              This is actually something my childbirth class emphasized: the popular narratives around childbirth are really horrific. And that leads to fear/stress, which is known to cause problems in labor. Certain people love to play misery poker (like OPs coworkers), and childbirth really seems to bring that out. If all these people had had kidney stones, I’m sure they’d be constantly sharing those horror stories

              I feel very lucky that all of the stories I heard growing up from the women in my family ranged from “Yeah, I guess that sucked, but so do many medical things” *shrug* to “Childbirth was totally fine, I don’t know why everyone says it’s so terrible.” The women in my family have terrible pregnancies but relatively easy births (despite large babies). And hearing neutral to positive stories growing up helped me in my childbirth. I could have experienced it as terrifying and awful (because it was super fast and no one–not me, not the midwife–was really “in control” of the situation), but instead I came out feeling like it was fine (the brevity of the experience greatly off sets the “well that sucked” aspects).

              1. Nita*

                That’s very true! There’s sometimes a psychological element to pain, and the worse you expect it to be… so I’m not a fan of the older generation sharing horror stories for this reason too.

              2. Ali*

                I remember reading a study that found that women that had overly-optimistic or overly-pessimistic expectations for childbirth, tended to have higher incidences of PTSD. The women who had more realistic expectations, basically a good understanding of the physiological process with the knowledge that things could potentially be easier or harder than baseline “normal” births, tended to do the best of all and suffer the least trauma.

          7. Sally*

            FWIW, it can also be the most wonderful thing! I loved pregnancy and had a very positive birth experience. I’m excited to do it again. I truly believe that more people have positive experiences than negative, but the negative voices are louder. Also, your expectations and your mindset alter your reality. So this perpetual “horror story” dump actually makes the situation worse for future women. We need more positive pregnancy and birth stories out there!

          8. Mike C.*

            Since no one else is saying it, not having children is also awesome. Do what makes you happy, not what others convince you to do.

            1. OP1*

              Aw that’s sweet! Don’t worry, I’m as stubborn as a mule so I definitely won’t have kids unless I truly want to have kids

            2. Like a Stone*

              I have simply never wanted children and never reconsidered. I am bisexual and have dated women who were willing to physically have the child, and I still didn’t want kids. An ex (male) suggested adoption, and I was not interested. Pregnancy/childbirth has very little to do with wanting/not wanting kids, at least in my experience. You’re only pregnant for nine months. You have to raise it for 18 years.

              1. Like a Stone*

                I also do not date single parents/ people who already have children, for the same reason.

      6. Mike C.*

        I would absolutely make a fuss if people did this to me, repeatedly until people stopped. I don’t go to work to hear about the bodily fluids of my coworkers.

        1. Thlayli*

          I think that you are very lucky that you work in a place where the majority of your coworkers share your opinion. If you made a fuss about being grossed out like that in my workplace then some of my colleagues would probably escalate it to make you even more grossed out! But this may be a cultural thing as I don’t think Americans really do that.

          1. Tardigrade*

            I have worked with RNs and other direct caregivers (am not one myself) who would start discussing the most disgusting aspects of their jobs during lunch, and we set up a hand signal system for when they started doing it and it would remind them to stop.

            If they can be considerate and realize that not everything is lunch table appropriate, then I bet just about anyone could.

          2. YuliaC*

            Haha that’s exactly what happens when one tries to hush a lunchroomful of (American) med techs talking about childbirth et cetera… They ramp up the goriness and the volume with enormous glee. I’ve seen that at 3 different workplaces now.

          6. Augusta Sugarbean*

            Maybe lay off the “Americans do this” or “I think Americans must do that”. Generalizations about people in the US, or any other country for that matter, are rarely accurate or helpful.

            1. Thlayli*

              Well I know from commenting here that most of the people who comment here are not from my country or culture. So when I see people saying “omg that’s so terrible” about something I think is perfectly normal, I’m gonna assume that’s a cultural difference. And it usually is.

              But yes, I should be more careful about assuming that ALL Americans think similarly. As Yulia says above, some Americans also will gleefully try to gross out their squeamish colleagues, so that particular behaviour probably transcends cultural differences.

      7. paul*

        It’s common and damn annoying. I’m the only male in my office, and discussions about childbirth (and menopause, and PMS) aren’t particularly common but they’re not rare either. I generally shut my door and try to ignore it; I don’t want to hear that my coworker’s vag was messed up after their kid weighed 9.5 lbs or that they’re constipated because PMS.

      8. Chocolate lover*

        3 children have been born to my female colleagues in the last 3 years, and no one has discussed this level of detail in groups of coworkers, whether it was about pregnancy or any other bodily experience or medical procedure. Nor did mothers in my previous offices. I think it’s perfectly ok for OP to ask them to be mindful of the whole group overall, and also not to discuss it while eating.

        1. SarahTheEntwife*

          Same here — several coworkers have had children, and I’ve overheard only a few very general pregnancy discussions.

      9. OP1*

        Yeah, it seems to be that the women who are older and have already had children are enthusiastic participants but the men and younger women in my office are generally uncomfortable with the topic.

        1. Q*

          I wonder if it’s not because they haven’t had someone to discuss childbirth with in a while? These conversations tend to crop up when topical, and they might be feeling nostalgia or something.

        2. Ave*

          I wonder if any of these women have ever considered how damaging their conversation is to women or men struggling with infertility, who have lost a child, or people who have to use surrogates.

          It’s pretty clueless.

          1. SittingDuck*

            I don’t think this is fair. You can’t ask people to avoid all potentially touchy subjects to others – or no one would ever talk about anything.

            I lost my mother as a teenager – it had a HUGE effect on my life – but it doesn’t mean I get upset when others talk about their (still alive) mothers because I realize that having and losing loved ones is part of life, and it is my burden to bear, not to project onto others/make them feel bad for talking about their mothers because I don’t have a living one anymore.

            Everyone has different life circumstances, and telling someone they can’t talk about a HUGE part of their life (motherhood/childbirth) because someone else might not be on the same path, or might be struggling to get to that place is unrealistic. Everyone has things that make them uncomfortable or sensitive -but part of life is learning to life in a world that has these things and still getting by.

            1. Annabelle*

              You can ask people to avoid explicit medical conversations in the workplace though. Idk why people act as if asking someone not to constantly talk about childbirth or pregnancy is the same as asking them to avoid literally every potentially sensitive subject.

              1. Eye of the Hedgehog*

                Because the stated rationale to which SittingDuck is responding was not about people being grossed out by medical procedures.

                1. Annabelle*

                  I didn’t say anything about being grossed out. Medical situations and procedures, pregnancy and childbirth included, can be and often are traumatic. It’s completely rational to avoid talking about specific things you know are fraught so that you don’t inadvertently hurt someone.

        3. SympatheticMom*

          I think the psychology here is very similar to people who fought in a war together or something. When you go through something traumatic, you feel closer to those who shared the experience. But if you asked them if they regret it, I’m betting that they would all say not at all. Honestly, personally, birthing was horrible, and the sleepless nights were much, much worse. The horror stories were not an exaggeration, but neither were the stories of the transcendental feeling of love that isn’t like any other, and fundamentally changes you as a human being. It’s this contrast that makes the conversation keep coming back over and over, I think. I am not defending their behavior – I think you’ve shown that you don’t like it, and it’s very bad manners that they keep doing it. I think if you just walked away one day, they might get the hint. They might get seriously offended- ” are you suggesting my children are disgusting?” kind of response – but that’s on them. Or more gently, can you just bring the conversation more towards raising small children, the joys and the difficulties – hopefully less disgusting, and maybe even interesting for you if you’re on the fence about having kids?

      10. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        Wow, that is eye-opening for sure. I’m in the US, in a mostly-male field, and I can think of exactly one time in my 21 years here when my coworkers and I discussed childbirth. It was at an office holiday party, a group of us women were trying to chat amongst ourselves, and the office Casanova kept butting into our circle and trying to join in our chat; until we figured out that saying “so that one time when I was giving birth…” makes him immediately exit the conversation. We used that to run him off. Never had, or heard, any conversations about that in the workplace!

        I have two sons myself, had them both naturally without painkillers (not because I wanted to, there just weren’t any other options), my memories of them being born are pretty rusty at this point, but I guess I could still participate in a conversation about it, I just was never in a situation in a workplace where childbirth was being discussed and I needed to weigh in.

      11. bookish*

        I think America is pretty terrible when it comes to pregnancy and childbirth stuff, and that attitude probably shows through social situations as well, when people who haven’t given birth think that’s something that’s gross and should be kept private.

        I’m a “no kids ever” person but I wouldn’t mind childbirth talk one bit, I find it fascinating because when I think about it, or hear about the details, I’m always so in awe of people who have done it! Like, it’s terrifying to me but that translates to me being incredibly impressed. If I’m being honest I saw the question and immediately got a little steamed because it seemed misogynist. Frankly it does feel a little bit like… ok so (mostly) women’s bodies creating life is disgusting to you? How do you think you got here? How much did your mom have to go through to give birth to you?

        I get that OP is squeamish about it but gosh I always think it’s best to do whatever I can to support women who have given birth. It’s annoying that they are like “oh OP you’ll hate this but here it is!” and maybe that would require a more serious talk if you really want to keep eating lunch with them (in which case I’d focus on just being too squeamish to talk about body stuff at lunch while you’re eating and maybe frame it as “sorry, this is a weird thing for me, I just can’t eat if people are talking about body functions!” – but also if this is all they talk about… do you really want to be eating lunch with them? I don’t know your office culture etc, maybe you can eat with other people or something if you can’t stand being around them.

        I also… don’t think that they “assume because you’re a woman in your 20s you want to hear this stuff” if you’ve already said you don’t like it? But maybe they assumed it was a safe space to talk about childbirth since they were around women. (Shrug)

        1. Lindsay J*

          What about supporting the people who can’t give birth for whatever reason, or who lost a child to miscarriage or still-birth or death shortly after birth, or just plain don’t want to?

          Traditionally, women who do not or cannot reproduce have been much more maligned than women who have children.

          1. Scarlet*

            +1
            It’s often quite unpopular for a woman to state she has no interest in childbirth. Trust me.

              1. Specialk9*

                I’m sorry to hear that.

                I’m an enthusiastic mom – I love having a kid, I always wanted kids. And I am so careful to be respectful of the fact that others may not want kids, or can’t have them, or have complicated feelings or experiences on the topic. I don’t get why this is so unusual.

                1. Like a Stone*

                  It’s unusual because you always wanted kids. That’s beautiful. Most parents I know tell me “I didn’t want kids until I had them!” etc. as if to suggest not wanting kids shouldn’t be a barrier to having them.

            2. Like a Stone*

              Yes, or for a woman with one child to state that she will not be doing it again.

              My former coworker almost died and her son spent two weeks in the NICU (he’s 7 now, and doing well, Thank God). But that wasn’t enough of an excuse for some of our (then) coworkers.

              1. Like a Stone*

                Thankfully, we both left that workplace. Management was toxic and allowed bullying not just about children, but about other medical issues, religion, even race.

          2. Annabelle*

            I’ve noticed that a lot of online commenters, in general, not just here, tend to be really unsympathetic to people who can’t have kids. People tend to get really dismissive or kind of angry whenever someone suggests limiting these types of conversations so as to avoid hurting people struggling with infertility. It’s really disheartening.

            1. LCCE*

              Annabelle, while I get that it is hard for childless couples, it is ALSO very disheartening to hear that we cannot talk about or share a huge part of our lives.
              You may not realize that it very much CAN come off as DON’T TALK ABOUT THE PEOPLE YOU LOVE THEY ARE OFFENSIVE TO ME. And that’s not appropriate, either.

              1. Annabelle*

                But you can talk about your family without going into details of your birthing experience. I love kids. I worked with them for years. Show me all the baby pictures in the world, but please do not talk to me about your pernieum tearing. I do not want to have that much intimate knowledge about the people I work with.

                Also, as someone who has had a traumatic experience with pregnancy and is actively struggling with infertility, I don’t care a whole lot if preserving my mental health comes off badly to parents. I’m not going to pretend that their is an inherent privilege in being a parent, because that would be silly, but it would be also be silly to act as if our culture didn’t treat women who can and do bare children with a little more respect and deference than those of us who don’t.

              2. Annabelle*

                Also, if you hear “the people you love are offensive to me” when someone says “I find the topic of childbirth to be a bit too graphic and personal for the office”, then that’s on you.

                1. Ali*

                  But that’s not what you were saying at all. You’re trying to say that people should avoid childbirth talk because it might offend someone unable to have children. If someone is offended by childbirth talk because they themselves can’t have children, they’re not being offended by the graphic description, they’re being offended because of the emotional issues tied to them being unable to have children. The offense is in the discussion of children/parenting, not graphic medical descriptions. There’s no reason to believe someone who finds it emotionally distressing to hear others childbirth stories wouldn’t also be emotionally distressed by hearing about your kids birthday party.

            2. Specialk9*

              Annabelle, yes.

              We parents can expect that you will deal with us having a family, and that you’ll find a way to manage with hearing the routine ‘weekend at soccer games’ stuff.

              But we don’t need to act like having children is a given or a rite of passage to adulthood, and we can take a few seconds to try not to hurt others who may be quietly suffering. Being kind is what we should all strive for.

        2. Q*

          ….What?

          I don’t want to talk about sex loudly at work over lunch either. That doesn’t mean I think sex is bad and wrong and shouldn’t happen.

        3. OP1*

          Human bodies are gross in general, I don’t want to talk about any medical stuff when I’m eating.
          I never said that specifically women’s bodies are disgusting- it just so happens in my workplace culture that the women are more open to talking about their bodily functions and the state of their genitals when I’m trying to eat.
          Picture this: you’re sitting at lunch and one of your male co-workers starts to talk to you about ejaculation and you are grossed out but he keeps talking about it anyway.
          I could argue that ejaculation is a necessary part of procreation and that half your DNA came from sperm so therefore you must hate men and their bodies if you don’t like talking about ejaculation at lunchtime.
          But I bet you don’t hate men or their bodies, you just don’t want to talk about some stuff when you’re trying to eat which is where I’m coming from.

        4. Specialk9*

          “America is pretty terrible about” is a huge wide brush.

          I’d be shocked if you’ve even lived in 15 cities in the US. (There are 35,000 cities in the US, nd that’s not counting the rural areas that don’t quite fit that count.) So even if you had lived in 15 cities, which I doubt, you’d still only know less Stan 0.004% of the US.

        5. Bleeborp*

          I’ve basically stated the exact same thing in a comment above- I don’t want kids but find the whole process very interesting and not gross or inappropriate for work. I’m a librarian so I’m “bookish” too! I am really free with the fact that I don’t want kids and maybe I get judged silently but the moms I work with don’t care and sometimes I think it’s kind of freeing for them to talk to someone without kids since I am not going to judge them or be like “oh don’t tell me that, it’ll scare me when I give birth!” I do think it depends on the situation of your coworkers -I think people should be respectful of other people who don’t want to hear about it for whatever reason but at lunch it’s optional to sit with these women so if hearing about childbirth is a problem, not sitting with them seems like a fine solution (it’d be different if one could not escape the conversation while it was taking place in their workspace.)

      12. aebhel*

        Ugh, I’m glad I missed out on that. I work in a female-dominated workplace, but I’m the only one there who has kids, so I got to miss out on the ‘LET’S BOND OVER OUR UTERUS-RELATED HORROR STORIES’ bs.

    5. Geoffrey B*

      Depends on the TV show. I would probably be more bothered by a blow-by-blow Game of Thrones recap than by most childbirth discussions.

      1. Thlayli*

        You should check out One Born Every Minute lol – my husband won’t even stay in the room when it’s on haha.

        1. Fiorinda*

          Or Call the Midwife. For a show with a reputation for being cute and fluffy it goes to some pretty stomach-turning places on a regular basis.

    6. Aphrodite*

      OP. you are far from alone I suspect. I am a woman who has never had any interest in having children and am now past the age of being able to do so. And that conversation would gross me out to the vomit point. (To be fair, any detailed medical conversation has the ability to do so, but that one? It’s particularly gross to me.) I wouldn’t joke about it at all. I would be dead bang serious when I asked them to stop or I might decide it wasn’t worth it (because it’s only me and maybe ten of them). But I would completely stop socializing with them at all. I’d rather eat lunch at my desk or in my car than hear one word about that.

      People: Medical stuff that gets into any kind of detail should be kept to yourself and any others who you are POSITIVE want to hear about it. If you are not sure, please do not share it, especially at work, and most especially at lunch.

      GROSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

      1. OP1*

        Thanks! It’s nice to know I’m not the only one who doesn’t like to talk about that stuff

  2. Thursday Next*

    #4–Ugh, why do places skimp on toilet paper? It’s so essential and rough toilet paper is extremely demoralizing. OP, I agree that you should discreetly poll your coworkers—you wouldn’t even have to get into details; just ask how they feel about the new TP. Chances are, that will elicit some feedback.

    But yeah, if your employer is cutting this particular corner, you may not be able to get much traction in a campaign to switch to a more humane variety of toilet paper. You have my sympathies.

    1. Circus peanuts*

      Quality toilet paper is important. I didn’t used to think so until I started trying to save money and got the absolute cheapest brand and had to deal with lint butt until the package was finished. I have since learned that a medium priced brand is a good compromise on quality and price.

      1. sacados*

        Sooo true. One of my roommates used to buy this one particular brand of toilet paper cause she thought it was “pretty.” But it was THE WORST quality toilet paper I have ever encountered in my life, and she just did not get why my other roommate and I were so insistent that it was never allowed in our house again. “But what’s wrong with it? It’s so pretty!” (ugh)
        Eventually we had to just forbid her from ever buying any because she just kept getting that awful stuff.

        1. Amber T*

          I’ve heard a lot of silly things in my life, but buying toilet paper because it’s pretty is pretty high up on that list.

          1. Lindsay J*

            I mean, they wouldn’t make it pretty if it didn’t influence some portion of the population to buy it.

        2. copy run start*

          I had a memorable argument with a roommate over TP at Walmart once, completing with snickering little old ladys in the other aisle. We each bought our preferred brand and it was a bit of an arms race whenever the stockpile ran low.

          Another roommate would always go buy the thinnest, cheapest mega pack of TP he could find. I was broke as heck but I always bought the good quality stuff whenever I beat him to the store. Of course the sheer number of rolls he’d bring home meant more often than not, the TP was crappy.

      1. me too*

        Ha! A former roommate had that hanging in our bathroom. I was so sad when she moved out and took that with her.

    3. Artemesia*

      I travel a lot and so always have tissues in my pockets; often they come in handy when there is no TP in a public rest room. The OP is going to have to do something like that. Keep a pack of kleenex in the purse or a few folded tissues tucked in a pocket and then no worry about it. Of course you can request a change in supplies but the odds this works seem low and who wants to be the ‘toilet paper lady’ who makes a big fuss at work about toilet paper?

      1. Thursday Next*

        Making a big fuss isn’t the way to go, for sure! But I think it’s not unreasonable for the OP to try to see how coworkers are responding to the change. If OP is met by shrugs all around, then yes, carrying personal toilet paper is the way to go.

        LW, you can bring partially used rolls from home, to cut down on the bulk you’ll be carrying in your bag.

        1. WellRed*

          If I walked into my office and said, “Does anyone else hate the new toilet paper?” my coworkers would be likely to all pipe up in agreement and I’d say something to the powers that be. But if they all shrugged, I’d have my answer and find my own way to deal with it.

      2. Queen Esmerelda*

        Be careful with this; Kleenex is not designed to degrade like toilet paper and can clog toilets/pipes. Signed, woman whose husband is a wastewater engineer and has to hear about this more than she wants to.

        1. Cookie*

          Clogging the pipes might be the thing that gets through to the business in the end to show that they’re being penny wise and pound foolish.

          1. RabbitRabbit*

            It will show them that they have employees who don’t understand what gets flushed (or who enjoy committing sabotage), and not that their toilet paper is subpar.

            1. Observer*

              Not really – If someone doesn’t have a reasonable options, they’ll use what they can. If the employer stopped providing toilet paper, people would do this too. Essentially, what is happening is that the employer has stopped providing usable TP.

            2. myswtghst*

              Yep. In my experience, this does not lead to better TP, it leads to bathrooms being shut down to be fixed and cleaned, and passive-aggressive signs about what is appropriate to flush. I’ve never worked anywhere that management would have made the connection to the crappy toilet paper they provide.

          2. Amber T*

            It may be a reason they switched to single-ply in the first place though. My office manager had to listen to everyone complain for months when we switched over to single ply (and she looked for the best quality / most comfortable single ply toilet paper she could) because the toilet paper we had been using was the source of all of our plumbing issues.

        2. straws*

          This is true. They do have travel packs of toilet paper that are about the same size as the tissue packs, so that might be the best option.

        3. Artemesia*

          I don’t use it at home, but I don’t care that much about the pipes of people whose businesses don’t provide toilet paper or provide horrifying stuff. The wet wipes can cause system wide problems, but the face tissues, well if it plugs up the plumbing at the company maybe they will get a clue.

      3. Chinook*

        A trick I learned from backwoods camping is to take a fresh tp roll and pull the centre tube out. This way it is easily squashed flat and into a Ziploc bag (to keep it dry, reduce the space it takes, and keep it from rolling away) while allowing you to pull it out of the centre instead of the outside (which can get dirty when being hauled around). It essentially works like a tissue box but for a much cheaper price.

      4. Jerry Larry Terry Gary*

        Flushable toilet wipes are quite portable and aren’t as obvious as a roll of toilet paper.

        1. Catherine who works for a water utility*

          Flushable toilet wipes aren’t actually flushable, despite what the packaging and marketing is trying to convince us of. They do not break down, they do plug up the system, and they are the bane of wastewater collection and treatment workers everywhere.

          Please everyone, do not flush them!

    4. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

      I am forcibly reminded of the time my manager (professional services within a hospital) got an email from the head of the cleaning department saying we were using too much toilet paper, and she needed to do something about it.

      1. Espeon*

        At Awful Financial Company they were OBSESSED with tp usage. If you went to fetch more for your floor’s bathroom it had to be signed-out by a member of accounts *crying with laughter* Oh and, it was of course the cheap kind.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          *sigh*

          Ours is decent – not luxury, but good enough, and it’s stored in cupboard under sinks in bathroom with expectation if any runs out you grab another roll. It’s seriously not worth upsetting people over.

        2. whingedrinking*

          I’ve recently moved into my own place after almost a decade of living in large, multi-roommate share houses, and my number one question is “were my former roomies eating the TP or what?!”, since it’s now disappearing at a much slower rate even allowing for the fact that I’m not sharing my bathroom with another person. I still didn’t go as far as the roommate who tried to implement an individual toilet paper regimen where everyone had a designated storage space. She just wound up with everyone taking it from her spot.

          1. Bagpuss*

            Maybe one of your former roommates was tking it in to work because they had terrible paper there…

          2. Oxford Coma*

            A girl on my dorm floor in college dried herself with TP after a shower instead of using a towel. You can imagine how fast it disappeared.

            (I didn’t say anything to her, it seemed like a possible OCD situation.)

            1. Be the Change*

              Only if you haven’t adopted the washable rag + tumbler of water solution. A roll of tp lasts me a month at home. I admit this doesn’t help at work.

            2. Pomona Sprout*

              Yes, and I would explain why this is, but I don’t want to gross everyone out (like OP 1’s childbirth chatters, lol)!

          4. LS*

            I thought this too, but not long afterwards my former roommate (and current friends) was finally diagnosed with Crohn’s Disease, so she really did need all that toilet paper.

        3. Anecdata*

          I worked at a place where the extra TP (and soap!!! ugh, I don’t want to think about it), were kept in a locked closet that only the head of accounts was allowed to access. We had an early-morning cleaning service who left before head-of-accounts arrived; so they were only restocked if someone came to the finance dept and insisted (and I don’t want to think about how often I found the bathrooms /out/ of these essentials and wonder what my coworkers were doing!).

          I was in a middle management position and felt like I had a bit of capital to burn so I started digging around for the root of this policy; and no one seemed to really care but no one wanted to risk (Cleaning service says “we’d be happy to restock the tp but the lock is really important to finance dept”; finance dept says “I have more important things to do that manage the tp-closet key, but HR insists on it”, HR says “…I never started this system so I’m not authorized to change it”). When I got to the point where everyone agreed it could be changed, but everyone was worried they would get in trouble if they just did it (“…but would it be okay with the CEO?”); I put my foot down, and said I was requisitioning a week’s worth of tp and soap at a time; keeping it unlocked in a stairs closet; telling the cleaning service where it was; and if the CEO was unhappy, everyone was welcome to blame me.

          And what do you know, the CEO of a multinational company somehow had enough things to occupy them that they never came to complain about the TP Rebellion.

          1. Kms1025*

            LOL! I was picturing all of these meetings/discussions about TP and soap. So funny :). And all to end in rebellion, “well I’m just doing it!”. So funny….good for you for enforcing some common sense into this silly situation. : )

          2. ScoutFinch*

            I saw a man making over $100K a year (in the late 1990s) lose his IT job because he got caught stealing toilet paper from the bathroom. Facilities services noted that the bathroom near him was going through MUCH more TP. TPTB pulled up the security cams at the exit doors.

            1. Xarcady*

              A couple of grad students on work-study jobs at a lawyer’s office were found to be the reason the TP was disappearing quickly. They were on limited incomes, and the closet full of TP was just too tempting.

              The firm gave each of them a $100 gift card and told them to use it for TP only. At least one of them did exactly that. (I know because he is my brother. These days he is a partner in a law firm, and he gives $100 gift cards to all the law student interns each semester, out of his own pocket. He doesn’t tell them why, though.)

        4. eplawyer*

          I have never understood this. Small business, sure you have to watch every expense. But for a big company, TP is NOT that much of a budget item. If you think you can trim the budget by getting cheaper TP, you are not really helping that much. Cheaper TP is not going to save the company. But good people will leave over this. Stupid penny pinching never goes over well.

          1. Observer*

            Even in a small business, unless someone is actually stealing the TP, decent stuff is not THAT expensive. Sure, if you go with the “premium” it’s going to cost. But decent? Let’s get real.

            1. JessaB*

              and the way to mostly stop stealing even in a small company is to get those large roller type dispensers. Slightly more expensive initial expense, but after that it’s really hard to lug around one of those 4 inch core rolls and they do not FIT in a home system.

              1. Kelly L.*

                Yep. And not by using one of those “low-waste” type dispensers that they put in kindergarten bathrooms. You know the ones that will stop turning if you take more than a square or two? In kindergarten, there’s a reason for it–little kids might play with it and waste it. But it irks me both as an employee and a customer when I run into it as an adult. It makes me feel like I’m being treated like a small child who can’t be trusted to know how much TP I need for the job at hand. And yes, I know there are people out there who mess with TP, but nonetheless, that’s still my gut feeling about it, and it’s turned me off a few businesses.

                1. AKchic*

                  We got “new” dispensers that only allow you to take one sheet at a time. You have to keep pulling each square individually, and it jams a *lot*. The only way to fix the jam is to alert the cleaning staff. The paper itself is thin, generic and extremely useless.
                  I bring my own from home and keep it in a locker with my other personal items.

            2. Teapot PM*

              That is actually why my husband bought the cheap TP from Costco for his business (small business <20 ees) We had bought it at home and it's regulated to the "only use in emergency if all out of others"

              He mentioned that he had to buy that kind for his office because whenever he bought a better kind it "walked away"

      2. Daisy Steiner*

        Our office manager tells us off for using up the water in the cooler too quickly. No joke

        1. Thirsty Office*

          Your office manager would have a fit in my office. We get a delivery of about 10-12 jugs of water every 2 or so weeks. It’s not uncommon to go through one jug in one day. Everyone was beside themselves the one time we ran out of water before the next delivery.

        2. The Other Dawn*

          Perhaps they should think about a filtration system. It looks just like a water cooler without the jugs. It’s hooked up to the main water line. We have that at our company and we never have to deal with running out of water.

          We had a water cooler at my last two companies and it amazed me how fast we emptied those jugs.

          1. Wondering One*

            I’ll second the filtration system. They’re wonderful! Ours also has a hot water option, which is great for making tea, etc.

            1. JessaB*

              Absolutely on the hot water line. Best thing ever. We actually back in the 70s had a bottled water dispenser that had a hot tap. Wasn’t perfect but OMG for a quick cup of tea? It did work and tea at that company was OMG IMPORTANT, we were a Japanese import house. Tea was bigger than it was in the UK there. And they drank their tea when they only wanted one cup from the cooler hot tap. When they wanted a pot, I made tea (it was the 70s, admins made tea and coffee when needed.)

          2. Melissa C.*

            We had a fancy filtration water cooler, but then the building changed something in the plumbing and our filter kept getting clogged to the point where it wouldn’t work anymore. Back to the Culligan man…

        3. Triplestep*

          Well, she’s not completely out of line if people are using it to fill water bottles (especially if they dump and clean their bottles at the end of the day.) I use a water bottle with a filter I can fill at the tap so that I don’t deplete shared water cooler jug in my small department. More for others and guests, fewer requests of someone strong to change the jug, less money spent on bottled water, and better for the environment.

          1. Observer*

            You’re kidding? Right?

            You can’t seriously mean that people shouldn’t be allowed to drink as much as they need to. Because there is no difference between filling a water bottle and drinking that water and filling up numerous cups and drinking that. For someone who claims to be concerned for the environment that’s actually a BETTER choice because you have one reusable bottle that doesn’t go into a landfill, rather than several cups PER DAY.

            As for requiring staff to provide their own filter bottles so they can drink the tap water, just NO. It’s the employer’s responsibility to provide drinkable water.

            1. JessaB*

              On the other hand I’ve worked in a lot of call centres, and the general tradition whether it was a sales place, a support place for a cable company, an answering service, an insurance company is that during onboarding EVERY employee got two very specific pieces of company branded swag. You got a weighted bottom, covered cup that you could use for coffee, tea, soda pop, or hot chocolate, and you got SOME kind of filter water bottle.

              The rule was you had no drinks at your desk unless they were in a covered container, so the company bought zillions of the things and made sure you could NOT say “I don’t have one.”

              The swag Mr. B’s company gave out were these steel cold bottles, that I swear you fill one day and 24 hours later are still cold.

              Everyone in the company would come over to me and borrow my personal wite out because I had the pen type and they could write their names on their cups with it. Or I had one of those sharpie paint pens in silver or gold. I finally told the boss to buy me a few of them so I wasn’t running mine out, and if I was doing a training class I’d pass a couple around for people to write on their stuff with.

              But those are cheap in quantity, I mean even the answering service I worked for and we were less than 100 people total when I left, had company cups. Although I left them before the water bottle thing became a common item. He barely made the minimum order to have branded swag done. He finally decided to make a bunch extra and gave em to the doctors front end people that we answered for.

              1. Observer*

                Well, if you are giving people filter bottles, then sure, make people use those things. I think that’s a great idea. And, even aside from the issue of covered containers, it may be less expensive than a water cooler.

                I like what your boss did.

            2. Triplestep*

              Nope. Not kidding. If people fill water bottles then dump out the water (or leave and take it with them) it depletes the amount available for consumption in the office. OTOH, if they fill their water bottles instead of refilling cups (who would use multiple disposable cups?) then you’re right – it’s the same.

              I am not suggesting anyone dictate the use of filter bottles. I said I use one because I don’t want to deplete the water cooler jug and there’s more for others. *shrug*

              1. Observer*

                Please. Most people are not using their water bottle to take home.That’s just a huge stretch.

              2. Totally Minnie*

                I don’t see the problem with people filling their water bottle before they leave. Some people have a long drive home in rush hour traffic, and there’s no reason they shouldn’t be able to have water to drink on the way.

              3. SarahTheEntwife*

                Are you living somewhere with a severe drought? Or is water otherwise unusually expensive? If not, this seems like a bizarre and demoralizing thing to monitor in the name of cutting costs. Would you also go around and the end of the day and make sure I actually finished my mug of crappy break-room free coffee instead of pouring the last half-inch on my desk plant?

            3. Autumnheart*

              Tap water is drinkable water practically everywhere*.

              * For the moment. EPA deregulation and other government shenanigans can be a topic for another day.

              It really depends on the size of the company. My office complex houses several thousand people. There are drinking fountains and bottled water vending machines. If people want nicer water than what comes out of the tap, they buy it or bring it from home. No way would it be reasonable to expect the company to furnish water coolers so everyone could have filtered water.

              I think it’s entirely reasonable for a company to expect an employee to bring her own filter bottle if she wants filtered water, same way I think it’s entirely reasonable for an employee to buy her own pop or coffee.

              1. Observer*

                Well, there isn’t easily available tap water in many offices unless you want to get your water from the bathroom. Also, there are a LOT of office buildings where the tap water really is not drinkable. Despite the EPA, there are still areas where people legitimately don’t want to drink the water (Flint, Michigan is only the most egregious example of the real problems that show up, but it’s NOT the only place with problematic water.) And, even where the water supply is essentially ok, the piping is a real issue. Sure, if you are in a brand new building, you are probably ok, but if your building is older, it’s a real problem.

      3. Artemesia*

        When I was a child my grandfather, a nasty stingy horrible hold man, made a fuss about our family of mother,father, girl and boy using too much TP when we visited. My mother than insisted that the ‘right amount’ of paper was two squares. 70 years later I still have memories of resentment at both her and my grandfather and a full sense of how stupid that was. Even as a pre-school child I could see how stupid that was. If I had had a situation like this with my own FIL, I would have brought a case of TP on the next visit as a hostess gift.

        1. Kittyfish 76*

          I remember my grandmother giving me this lesson when I was little, also. Only I think I may have been allotted 4 squares.

        2. oranges & lemons*

          My grandfather also gave me a two-square allowance but in his case I think it was a joke. It was hard to tell sometimes.

    5. Not my real name but close*

      I once worked in a large medical clinic that used the cheapest toilet paper ever. It was so awful that it made me bleed. I had no idea why, at first, so I saw my gynecologist and after several visits, she couldn’t find the problem. Only after I changed jobs did it stop. Then I went to a seminar at a hotel where they obviously used the same TP as I started bleeding again.

      1. Not myself today*

        Years ago, my company changed bathroom equipment suppliers and the new supplier used horrible toilet paper. People started raising it in their exit interviews. The company changed back.

      2. SpaceNovice*

        This is literally the worst toilet paper horror story I have ever read. I’m so sorry you had to deal with that.

    6. Wintermute*

      I know more than one person that uses toilet paper quality when selecting business partners. If they’re meeting a new prospective vendor or client or partner they scope the facilities: Having automotive finishing sandpaper in the loo says, in her mind, either your company is penny wise and pound foolish (because they’d save 2 cents a roll at the cost of morale and comfort) or is in dire financial straits and they’re looking at every last cent that can be saved enviously. She’ll never do business with a company that doesn’t have decent toilet paper and feminine hygiene products in the bathroom

      I wonder if the tight-fists that make these choices realize they’re being judged on these criteria and it could be costing them business or opportunities?

      1. Triplestep*

        This is really interesting! I never thought of TP as a yardstick for evaluating a company, but it’s a valid one (especially in light of many of the comments here.)

      2. SpaceNovice*

        Oh, I need to remember this tip from now on! I’m adding it to my growing list of things to judge companies by when I interview.

      3. Andraste's Knicker Weasels*

        They should be explicitly told that those criteria are costing them so they know. It’s good reasoning, IMO, but it won’t change if people aren’t hit over the head with a clue-by-four.

    7. MW*

      #4’s new president sounds like a dingus to me. “I’ll show everyone how good I am at finances by getting a load of cheap sandpaper in the toilets and letting all our computers fall into complete disrepair!” I don’t think these measures are the sign of good financial sense, but of myopic penny pinching. I’m sensitive to the computer thing because I work in IT and have seen a fair bit of chafing at computers that meet the bare minimum requirements, but reduce productivity because they’re not really up to spec.

      2. SophieChotek*

        Yes! I was floored when my boss told me he is still using his computer from 2002!!!!! (How does it even work????)

        1. Observer*

          Well, maybe “use” is too strong of a word. Perhaps it’s more of a desk decoration than a useful tool…

        2. SusanIvanova*

          About the same as Dilbert’s Pointy Haired Boss and his Etch-a-sketch. Or a CEO who said he was “running the company” from a particular model of hardware which at the time only existed as a cardboard mockup.

      3. Perse's Mom*

        Can you explain that last bit to the IT at my company? I’ve had something like 4-5 different PCs since I started at this company ~8yrs ago. I’m pretty sure they just swap out the latest dying machine for one that’s merely *almost* dying.

        1. copy run start*

          Hand-me-down PCs… gotta love it. I got an ancient creaky laptop that was virtually unusable, an already 2-year-old smartphone and desktop when I started at my company, which was fairly standard for my position. Since moving up the chain I’ve been successful in getting it all replaced but the desktop. New employees aren’t getting desktops and I seriously need a separate laptop for what I do so I’m stuck there, sadly.

    8. Trout 'Waver*

      I don’t know about the rest of you, but I use much more TP when it’s low quality. I don’t understand how you supposedly save money with the cheap stuff.

    9. Calico*

      I think the new president is just cheap. I work in finance too, and fully understand the difference between penny pinching and mindful spending.

      Actually we had a change to our head of facilities in my office and she actually upgraded the tp. I find that I use less of the better quality paper (even at home), so it was one of the first things to impress me about her judgement.

      1. Triplestep*

        Your new Head of Facilities is female, and the OP#4’s new president is male. Not the only thing contributing to their awareness about the impact of poor quality TP, but it’s definitely a factor.

        Related to this, we had OK-quality TP in a former workplace of mine, but the new rolls were impossible to start – the ends of the rolls were somehow glued to the body of the TP, and combined with the shape of the holder (it was the kind that had a cover) you could just not get your hand up inside to really get a grasp on this thing. It was not uncommon to walk into a stall and find a good amount of torn little pieces of TP all over the floor; it only meant that someone had recently had the frustrating experience of trying to start the roll. Seriously, being caught with a new roll had made me late to meetings!

        I knew the Facilities Manger pretty well (we reported up to the same VP) and I asked him if he could ask the cleaners to *start the roll before placing it in the holder*, and described the problem. After all, this would create less of a need to sweep up. It was win/win! Nothing changed. I seriously think that had he been female, this might have been addressed.

    10. Justme, The OG*

      My workplace has okay toilet paper, but we recently upgraded the soap dispensers and the soap it takes it horrible.

      1. BadPlanning*

        Our new soap dispenser somehow don’t…retain the soap? You have to pump the soap several times to get it to come out (they are dispensers under the sink). I have checked and they are full of soap…apparently the soap just oozes back to the container?

        1. SpaceNovice*

          It’s either a low viscosity soap (thin) when a higher viscosity soap (thicker) is needed, the tubing in the new pumps is big enough that it allows the soap to flow back down, or both. So either the product isn’t a good match for the soap dispenser or the soap dispenser has a design flaw. (Places I never thought I’d use hydrodynamics: talking about soap dispensers.)

      2. Artemesia*

        At a place I worked they decided to use some new eco friendly hand soap. It had a smell that was so horrifying to me that I not only stopped using it (I had purell in my purse) but also avoided using the restroom if at all possible until I was out of the office for lunch. It was clearly a perfume in the stuff but it made my skin crawl.

        1. Totally Minnie*

          I worked at a place where the soap smelled terrible a few years ago, but someone gave me a gift card to Bath & Body Works that Christmas and they were having a massive sale, so I ended up getting an extra soap dispenser for work. After that, we all took turns getting good soap. Not a thing we should have had to do, but it made our days a little more enjoyable.

    11. Irene Adler*

      Might seek out another female who is high up in management. They might be receptive to the TP sensitivity and advocate for a better brand. Sometimes it’s a matter of ignorance; your president has no experience with TP irritation issues.
      I’m lucky as the CFO at my work is female. She insists that we have a good brand of TP. In fact, the rolls provided don’t quite fit the holders. But she will not budge. They will provide the good stuff. The other C-suite members don’t have a preference but they will not argue with CFO.

      1. Observer*

        Eh, men deal with irritation issues too. And a LOT of men have wives, girlfriends and daughters. So it’s not like men as a whole have never heard of such a concept.

        1. Nanani*

          In my experience, it has not often been the case that the existence of women family members makes a man give a shit. (pun intended)

        2. Chinook*

          True but it is also possible for a man to go months or years of using the bathroom at work without using toilet paper if they only use urinals at work. For women, we use it every time we go and there are times during the month where we have to use the washroom more frequently for reasons your average man never will (man is it hard to talk about this without getting graphic). There is a very good reason why women care more about quality of tp.

        3. Lady at Liberty*

          You’d be surprised. My husband didn’t understand the importance of good toilet paper until his first horrible diarrhea attack happened while we were using the cheap stuff.

          He now keeps a weather eye out for sales on the good stuff.

    12. fposte*

      We’ve been through *two* toilet paper downgrades at work. It’s the state, so it’s not changeable, but yes, it’s demoralizing.

    13. Ann Nonymous*

      LW should use “disposable wipes”…they invariably clog the plumbing and when they do, it can be mentioned that they are being used because the new, cheap t.p. is insufferable.

      1. FoxyDog*

        Agreed. As an IBD sufferer, these are a lifesaver at work (we also have crappy TP). If OP is female, the ladies room should have sanitary disposal bins in the stalls so the wipes don’t need to be flushed.

    14. Fafaflunkie*

      I hear you, OP1. Hence the reason my body trained itself to suppress the need to drop a deuce at work. I’d rather pinch a loaf at a nearby Tim Hortons than at the office, so you can pretty much guess the quality of the butt-wipe there.

    15. Lauren*

      Honestly, I’d take the toilet around like its a notebook or pen brought to a meeting. If anyone asks, say that “the new toilet paper feels like sand paper – so I’m bring my own. And no, you can’t have any of my stash.”

      If they laugh, let them and play off it – “you laugh now, but you’ll be texting me from a bathroom stall begging for a fix soon enough. Double ply is $1 per square. No discounts.”

  3. Beatrice*

    I’m not sure I agree on #1. To me, talking about childbirth to the extent that torn perineums come up is the same vein as talking about a surgery or a prostate exam. Both involve bodily fluids and parts of the body that are generally considered private. Many people do not like hearing about bodily fluids while eating and I don’t think it would be unreasonable to ask people to stop talking in detail about their bloody scabs or medical appointments over food.

    Yes, childbirth is a natural part of life and we should feel free to talk about it, but so are a lot of other things that are considered impolite to talk about while eating.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think we agree that it’s totally reasonable to ask that it stop! But she doesn’t have the standing to insist that it stop. But she can ask.

    2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I agree that it’s graphic (and inappropriate). But I also think that if OP’s coworkers aren’t willing to accommodate a direct request to refrain from talking about torn perineums, then it’s unlikely that OP can change their minds, and it may be less frustrating if OP recategorizes the problem as her coworkers lacking self-awareness about how much they’re droning.

      1. Casuan*

        …and it may be less frustrating if OP recategorizes the problem as her coworkers lacking self-awareness about how much they’re droning.

        Love this suggestion!
        OP1, if you do ask your colleagues to stop, they might ask why you waited so long to mention that you dislike that topic. I can’t give you suggestions because the responses that come to mind are all a bit sarcastic. They’re true, although I can’t edit out the snark.
        ;-/

        1. JessaB*

          But you don’t get to call it lack of self awareness when they start out with “OP we know you don’t want to hear this but,” and keep going. They lose the claim to being unaware at that point.

      2. Sabine the Very Mean*

        I’ve honestly never come upon a situation where I said, “can we please talk about something else?” and the other person/people did not agree to do so.

        OP, assume positive intent and do that! I bet a million they’ll stop until you leave.

          1. Gazebo Slayer*

            Ugh, my dad used to talk about really inappropriate stuff at dinner and get angry and yell if I told him to stop. Eventually he learned, but it took years.

      3. MLB*

        There’s probably not much she can do about it. I’ve never been pregnant or birthed a human, and didn’t get married until I was 42, so I was single while most of my close friends went through the marriage and baby years. I was somewhat interested in the conversations because they were close friends and I cared about them and what they were going through, but sometimes it got to be too much. If it bothers the LW that much, she can mention it, but it’s likely that the topics will go back to the stuff that grosses her out because that’s what stage many of them are in at the moment.

    3. Totally Minnie*

      If these conversations are happening in the break room at the office, could the higher ups institute a “no medical talk in the lunch room” policy? I know you can’t necessarily restrict what people do on an unpaid lunch break, but surely you can set parameters for what’s appropriate on company property.

  4. OperaArt*

    OP4, look into fragrance-free flushable wipes if you have no luck getting the toilet paper upgraded. You’d still have to carry them with you, but they’re more discrete than a roll of toilet paper.

    1. Detached Elemental*

      Many flushable wipes aren’t actually flushable. Here in Australia there have been massive sewerage line blockages caused by the buildup of these wipes.

      1. Chameleon*

        That might cause the PTB to re-evaluate “saving” money on cheap TP if they have to shell out on plumbers instead…

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Although then you go down as the person who broke the pipes with wipes :(

        2. LouiseM*

          This seems counterintuitive, since one of the many reasons smart businesses prefer single-ply is that it clogs the toilet less readily than its fluffier cousins!

            1. Half-Caf Latte*

              We take the OPs at their word, though.

              Also the computer repair example supports this being financial and not eco-minded.

        3. Elizabeth the Ginger*

          They cause problems for the whole municipal system, though, not just the toilet they’re flushed down. It’s not reasonable to punish the wastewater treatment plant workers (and possibly even affect the water quality of the released effluent) because the company is being miserly.

          1. Observer*

            It’s not about “punishing” anyone, though. It’s about providing usable sanitary supplies. Unless you really want to suggest that people just not wipe?

            If a company is really using bad TP, then there are no really good options, to be honest.

            1. CheeryO*

              Why not just bring your own toilet paper? There have to be smaller rolls or packs available for this exact situation.

              1. Observer*

                Because, unlike the tissue packs, they are harder to find, often inconvenient sizes and frequently less discreet.

                1. JessaB*

                  And expensive unless you buy in bulk, these kinds of things are mostly designed to carry by travellers in countries where they don’t normally supply any outside of hotels designed to serve western patrons.

        4. TootsNYC*

          actually, the clogs are most likely to happen in sewer lines, so it’s the municipality that pays.

      2. Thlayli*

        They have been banned in many European countries because of this. They are usually not flushable.

      3. The Other Dawn*

        This is exactly how my former Tenant From Hell massively clogged the main line going out of my house a couple years ago. When Roto Rooter came in to snake it, they pulled out MASSIVE amounts of supposedly flushable wipes. And this was after we both told her many times “absolutely DO NOT flush wipes.”

      4. Rod*

        Yeah I use “flushable” wipes all the time and I never flush them, I put them in the trash. I know some plumbing systems won’t be able to handle them.

    2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Noooo, don’t flush wipes! They cause massive problems for nearly all wastewater systems and are expensive to fix. A person could easily pre-tear lengths of toilet paper and bring those in (folded to a discrete size) if there’s fear of having to carry a roll of TP with them.

      1. FaintlyMacabre*

        Yup! I lived in a part of the world where TP is not provided in public restrooms. Everyone just brings some from home, folded up in a pocket or a pouch. Not a big deal, really. Especially since if OP forgets, there isn’t the added stress of no TP, it’ll just be (sorry in advance) shtty TP.

      2. Tardigrade*

        I’m nesting this question under your comment, but does anyone know why wipe-makers are allowed to label them as flushable when they aren’t?

            2. Part-time Poet*

              There was a time in the not too distant past when baby wipes were not invented yet. Oh! My! What did parents do then??

              1. Falling Diphthong*

                Wash cloths. Lots of them. I am not volunteering to launder the poopy wash cloths, not when we’ve decided our butts don’t get that treatment.

                (Baby wipes are usually disposed of with the disposable diaper, or by tossing them in a trash can. Most diapers are changed in nurseries, not bathrooms.)

              2. Artemesia*

                My kids are middle aged and we had wipes then. There was a time when babies were nested in leaves too, but a while back.

                1. Joielle*

                  Idk why “a while back” made me laugh so hard, but here I am, trying to suppress a snort-laugh in my office :D

            3. TootsNYC*

              most baby wipes are not used in the bathroom; they’re used at the changing table, and they end up in the garbage pail w/ the disposable diapers (or in the garbage pail next to the diaper pail, if you’re using cloth–and some people who use cloth diapers use cloth wipes).

              Some companies claim to have changed their wipes to be more flushable than previously. But I’d still be hesitant.

        3. CheeryO*

          I’m guessing it’s because they are flushable in the sense that they probably won’t make your toilet itself clog. Whether or not they cause problems in the collection system or at the treatment plant is dependent on the condition of the system, the technologies in place at the treatment plant, the velocity of water traveling through the pipes… it’s probably difficult to say, “No, you cannot call these flushable because they will eventually cause problems somewhere.” It looks like D.C. tried to crack down on the labeling, and the wipe manufacturers claimed it was a violation of the First Amendment.

          1. Artemesia*

            Well that is stupid. There are all sorts of labels mandated on products. How is this different?

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      I have a distinct memory of a chat here where someone was flushing entire rolls of toilet paper to flood the toilets, and they eventually staked out the bathrooms until they found the miscreant. This took… a lot longer than you would think, given that “assume people will not deliberately flood the bathroom” had failed.

    5. Janie*

      In defense of not-actually-flushable wipes, IF you are a woman you can just discreetly throw them away in the little box that is usually for sanitary products. This is what I do at work, I have a bunch of individually wrapped ones I bought on Amazon. For men, it would definitely be harder as I presume you don’t have waste receptacles in the stall.

  5. TP*

    4# – oh man. this is different, but recently i went on vacation and the place where i was staying had TERRIBLE toilet paper. that was one of the reasons I don’t think I’ll go where I went again, though some other stuff factored in too. i have never wanted to go home JUST so i could wipe my ass with my ultra charmin. oh man.

    1. Keep Your Eyes On The Prize*

      I buy the really good toilet paper, so good you don’t need a lot to do the job. Then I got a roommate who used a whole roll every other day. So I bought the generic brand for her and kept the good stuff tucked away for my use.

  6. the Viking Diva*

    #4 : “…will require you to discreetly ask coworkers you’re close to if they hate the new toilet paper too, which is exactly the kind of conversation I would enjoy but you might not.”
    Alison, this is why we love you!

  7. LouiseM*

    OP #4, I’m sympathetic to your situation but I’m afraid you will sound like a lunatic if you ask your coworkers to band together and protest the new toilet paper. Even if I agreed with her, I would find it very off putting to have a coworker ask me about my experience using toilet paper. Truthfully, for probably everyone in the office except you, TP quality is just not a big enough deal to justify breaking the massive social norms around discussing something so personal.

    That said, if the toilet paper is really making you so uncomfortable, I urge you to see a doctor. Although many people think of the vagina and vulva as a delicate ecosystem, the truth is they are very resilient and tend to take care of themselves pretty well. This extreme reaction you’re having may be a sign that something is wrong. Listen to your body, OP–just don’t make your coworkers listen to you talk about the toilet paper! Good luck!

    1. Artemesia*

      Cheap products may have more chemical residue that is irritating. I use baby wipes at home because they are a lot cheaper than the identical product made for adults; the generic CVS sensitive wipes are great; for me the Pampers sensitive wipes are irritating. I assume most people wouldn’t have this problem with them. People have different things they are sensitive too. It doesn’t mean they have a problem — just a problem with the product.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Eh, it’s not a big personal discussion about anyone’s genitalia. It’s just “hey, have you noticed this awful new toilet paper?” followed by “you think we can ask Jane to order the old stuff instead?”

    3. Mad Baggins*

      I mean, dudes have butts, too. Everyone has butts. Presumably they use toilet paper on their butts. Everyone likes fluffy soft toilet paper on their butt. I don’t think it’s as personal or gendered as you say.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yeah, I found that confusing. I’m not sure it makes sense to assume OP is a woman with lady-part-problems simply because the TP is uncomfortable and sucks? Most people, of all gender identities, prefer not to have to use thin, sandpapery TP.

        1. LouiseM*

          Not to nitpick, PCBH, but assuming someone has a vulva (which I still didn’t do) =/= assuming someone is a woman or has (yeesh) “lady parts.” Come on….

    4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Ok, I’m going to out myself as someone who lead a TP revolt… at two different jobs. And I’m fairly certain it’s not what people think of or remember when they think of me.

      At one job, staff responsible for procurement switched to crappy TP without management asking them to do so under the rationale that they were “saving” money. Of course, they did not—we went through exponentially more TP because people just doubled (or tripled) up on the amount they used to reach the ply-level they wanted. After running out of TP multiple times because procurement hadn’t accounted for the uptick in use, I gently suggested that we’d probably save money using a better ply level. Once I made my comment, everyone was bursting at the seams to agree and endorse a better ply. We switched back to a decent TP, and it made everyone much happier.

      At the second job (feds), we were stuck with crappy Kleenex and crappy TP because of stupid rules that I’m convinced are made up about sourcing paper personal care products. We had already gotten in the habit of pooling our money to buy better hand soap, so I suggested we may want to do the same for TP and Kleenex, since both were used by our guests and by staff. Again, everyone was relieved that someone mentioned how much both things sucked, and simply mentioning it made people feel more comfortable about chipping in for the office TP/Kleenex/Soap fund.

      So I think there’s a way to bring these issues up without it getting into TMI territory or without making OP look like the “TP lady.” And if it’s really that uncomfortable, I suspect others are also suffering.

      2. Wintermute*

        You are awesome.

        And it’s true, if you get 1-ply paper people just USE MORE– it’s the law of ply and demand.

      3. WellRed*

        I so agree with your last graph, PCBH. This doesn’t have to be a big. thing. I bet most of her coworkers have the same complaint.

    5. Perse's Mom*

      Yeah, no. Most people have an opinion about the office toilet paper and when the office goes from reasonable-quality TP to (pardon the pun) crap quality TP, people are likely equally dismayed. I suspect OP would get quite a bit of support.

      Also… not so much asking for details on your experience with it, like nobody wants to know how many times you had to wipe with the new stuff vs the old stuff, but a flat ‘it’s terrible and I hate it’ is sufficient.

    6. AJ*

      I disagree. I think we need to take the OP at her word. Just because she’s sensitive to crappy toilet paper doesn’t mean she has a medical problem. And if her doctor is anything like any doctor I have ever seen their answer will probably be “don’t use rough toilet paper”. Also even if it wasn’t irritating her, it’s not unreasonable to request somewhat decent toilet paper.

      1. LavaLamp*

        I am actually allergic to certain brands of TP. It’s awful to experience actual hives on your girl parts. I would get a doctors note if I had to. It’s not always an underlying infection\issue. It’s possible to be allergic to toilet paper.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          I’m actually curious how that would work out, legally. Would ADA accommodation cover require an employer to purchase a specific brand of toilet paper for an employee? Or would they be able to tell you to bring your own?

          1. Apollo Warbucks*

            It seems like a reasonable thing to accommodate to me. The cost difference would be marginal at best and the inconvenience of carrying your own supplies would be more of a problem.

          2. CM*

            It isn’t necessarily about what is legally required. Decent employers do want their employees to be happy and if a recent change is causing medical issues may be convinced to switch back regardless of whether or not they are legally required to.

            1. Amber T*

              The key word is “decent” employer here though. We already have an employer here who thinks its a good idea to buy sandpaper TP and wait for computers to break before fixing them. If it would be legal to tell OP (or the employee in question) to bring in their own TP (which would seem to be cheaper than switching over to better quality TP – and I say “seem to be” given PCBH’s comment above), I don’t doubt they would just “screw it.”

              1. Bea*

                Oh come on. The op has a cheap boss but even my cheapest boss changed his tune when approached with something like “this change is leading to a problem for me.” I got better pens when I explained the Bics do not fit in my giant lady paws and I actually break a ton of them with my grip.

                We used to just use PCs until they died. With our line of work and the solid backup system it was just fine.

        2. LouiseM*

          Maybe I’m confused with the nesting, but I don’t at all understand how this contradicts what I said. Being allergic to toilet paper does, in fact, qualify as “an underlying infection/issue.”

      2. LouiseM*

        AJ, it’s precisely because I took OP at her word that I left this comment.

        Normally if someone used the word “hellish” to describe USING TOILET PAPER, I would assume that they were a) unimaginably prissy and b) exaggerating for effect (like when someone who is afraid of something says they have a “phobia,” or who dislikes a food calls it an “allergy”). But since on this site we take OP at their word, if someone is *this* sensitive to crappy toilet paper, that does in fact mean they have a medical problem. That is in fact the ONLY explanation we can draw, if we really are to believe that the OP is truly having such an awful reaction. See what I mean?

        1. Close Bracket*

          That’s awfully presumptuous of you. I would say that taking OP at their word means believing that the toilet paper genuinely is terrible and that there is a problem with the toilet paper and *not* with the OP.

    7. Yorick*

      I disagree. If other people think the TP is bad, they will not find it crazy to ask that it change back. Even if I didn’t mind the new TP, I wouldn’t think it was crazy that other people did.

    8. Observer*

      Actually, the first thing most doctors will ask you about if you come to them with irritation is how you’re cleaning yourself. Getting irritated by really bad TP is not something most doctors are going to treat – it’s actually generally not a sign of deeper problems, and even if it were it STILL makes sens to to deal with the symptom.

      As for it not being a big deal – maybe to YOU it isn’t but to a lot of people it IS. And the norms are not quite as massive as you make out. I’m not saying that “no one” considers talking about this stuff to be so off limits that you ONLY EVER mention it to your doctor NO MATTER WHAT. But, that’s far from an almost universal “norm”.

  8. Junior Dev*

    Re: 3, it might make sense to talk to HR about moving to a different desk, not because it’s “necessary” for Carol, but because it makes *you* uncomfortable to work next to someone who is clearly scared of your dog.

    If you phrase it this way, make sure you’re clear you aren’t upset with Carol’s behavior, but instead focus on language like “I want to minimize distractions.”

    1. Elizabeth H.*

      I think that’s a good point. Clearly it IS pretty distracting for the letter writer – because she’s having to constantly be aware of where Carol is, try to go out of her way to avoid her, etc. It’s thoughtful of the letter writer but I can imagine everyone would be happier with more distance. I would be constantly distracted/feel guilty/be hyper alert of Carol, my dog, etc. if I were letter writer.

      1. Clisby Williams*

        I agree. If I were Carol, I would have asked to be moved ages ago, because no way would I want to work around a dog. I’m not phobic about dogs, but I’d definitely like them as far as possible away from me.

        Frankly, I don’t care if this is distracting for the letter writer – the LW is the one bringing the dog into the workplace, and he/she is the one who needs to empathize with people who are afraid of/don’t like dogs.
        It sounds like he/she gets this, so proceed.

        1. Pomona Sprout*

          Seriously, moving Carol would be a win-win. I’m sure there are plenty of people who would just love to work next door to a well-behaved service dog. (I’d be first in line myself.)

    3. FieldBiologist*

      Yeah, I get the impression Carol doesn’t want to be the one who causes trouble because she’s afraid of dogs… now whenever there’s dogs in the office, I think of that poor person with the allergies who got shunned.

      1. Sylvan*

        That letter writer was in a “dog-friendly” office populated by jerks, though. The letter writer here is one person working with a service dog when they need to, and they don’t seem interested in pressuring or bullying Carol.

        1. FieldBiologist*

          Oh no, I wasn’t trying to say OP is pressuring or bullying! My point is, a lot of people feel pressure to like pets even – since she has a phobia, I’m sure she’s had tons of people in her life try to convince her dogs are great. It’s possible she figures she can get by and not cause trouble, and she’s worried about becoming known as the person at the office who doesn’t like dogs.

          2. Clisby Williams*

            There’s nothing in the letter to indicate Carol has a phobia about dogs – just that she’s extremely uncomfortable around them.

            If Carol had written about this, I’d have told her there’s nothing wrong with being uncomfortable about potentially dangerous animals, or about asking to be moved. Accommodating the LW should not mean refusing to accommodate everyone else.

            1. OP #3*

              If you’ll read my other comments, I have suggested that I would move desks. HR presented this accommodation to Carol, and she turned it down. If I were your coworker, I would have proposed the same thing, and I am guessing you would accept it.

            2. Plague of frogs*

              Carol needs to ask for accommodation if she needs it. That’s how ADA rules work.

      2. Gen*

        I’m terrified of dogs and won’t willingly get in biting distance of them, but I also understand that service dogs have a vital job too do. I don’t want to get close enough to a service dog that my fear will distract it, and I really don’t want to be the person who caused a fuss about a disability accommodation (since I need several myself). So I can totally understand Carol doing her best to just keep away from it and keep quiet about the situation. I would object strongly to being forced into any amateur attempt at phobia treatment. I think that’d make a lot of peoplee uncomfortable unless management insisted or something. Please go back to HR and look at moving desks again with the framing suggested above

        1. Audrey Puffins*

          I think the idea of the LW asking Carol if there’s anything in particular she can do to help doesn’t necessarily have to be, like, a week of graduated dog-exposure or anything. It could be that Carol is more nervous of dogs that are standing up, so perhaps it might be easier for the LW to simply have the dog sit when they pass each other in a hallway, rather than the LW+dog changing direction to duck behind a wall or whathaveyou. Maybe not a great example, it’s pretty early in the morning here, but even if Carol doesn’t have any suggestions like that, or even any questions, it could – if nothing else – be reassuring for her to hear that the LW is at least aware of and sympathetic to her discomfort.

          1. MaHow*

            That’s actually not a bad idea. As someone with a fear of dogs, I am more triggered by a dog that is jumping, walking, licking, etc. If a dog is sitting and calm, I’m much more able to deal with being around it because my mind doesn’t automatically envision that dog biting me.

        2. LBK*

          Agreed – I think Carol is trying to be accommodating because it’s a service dog, but she doesn’t realize it’s not necessarily any better to be blatantly scared of the dog than it would be to just adjust the situation so neither of you have to deal with these encounters anymore.

      3. Tuxedo Cat*

        I don’t blame Carol for that. People can be strange about dog fears. One of my good work friends wanted to start bringing her dog to work and got permission from our kind but clueless boss; we were not a dog friendly office. My friend and another coworker were talking about the dog and how awesome it would be. When I pointed out that my friend might want to send out a general email, asking if it was okay for the office (allergies and whatnot), the other coworker looked at me like I was the devil. It wasn’t even her dog and my friend knows I love her dog.

        1. Mallory*

          It’s funny–I am obsessed with dogs (have my own, always have, love him/care about him more than 99.9999999999% of humans) but I do not like having dogs in an office. I find them to be a supreme distraction- ESPECIALLY for people who love dogs and think any moment spent not petting a dog is a moment wasted.

          1. Jennifer Thneed*

            I just want to bring my cat to work. He’s old, he doesn’t do much, he enjoys sunshine and being petted. He’d mostly just find a patch of sunshine and sleep.

            …oh wait, I *do* bring my cat to work. No, wait, got that backwards. I bring my work to cat. (I work from home 4+ days a week and having my guy curled up on the couch across the room is a big perk.)

      4. I'll come up with a clever name later.*

        My 12 year old daughter is terrified of dogs but she doesn’t enjoy sharing her fear with others – mainly because so many people fall into one of two categories : they either don’t think that a person could really be afraid of dogs or they think that their dog is the one that will cure her of her fear. I could see her being Carol in this scenario and I could honestly see her quitting her job rather than say something. It wouldn’t surprise me if Carol has entertained this thought. LW, ask for your desk to be moved. I think if you insist both you and Carol will be happier.

    4. OP #3*

      I offered to move desks at the beginning of all this and Carol said it wasn’t necessary. And so far, the problems have actually most been while I’m walking around with my dog, so now I don’t know if moving desks would help anything. Unless I moved units altogether, and no longer worked with my current unit/department.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Thanks for clarifying. I got the impression that you asked HR and HR said it wasn’t necessary. I was going to say that Carol is the one who should be asked and that HR shouldn’t speak for her.

        Perhaps the fact that the dog is mobile is what bothers her. Meaning, maybe when your dog is laying down and quiet she doesn’t see it as a threat, but when the dog is walking around it makes Carol nervous because the dog could approach her much more quickly.

        1. OP #3*

          Yes, I should have been more clear in my letter to Alison. HR asked my neighboring coworkers if they had any issues with dogs, such as phobias or allergies. Carol said she was scared of dogs but that she didn’t think either one of us moving was necessary.

          She has reacted fearfully to my dog lying down, though. So I don’t think it’s mobility that worries her.

          1. The Other Dawn*

            Ah. OK. I was thinking maybe mobility was the issue. A friend of mine is OK as long as a dog is still and quiet, but becomes really nervous when a dog is up and about. Her thought is that it may pounce on her or chase her.

          2. Tardigrade*

            You’re a great coworker for trying to make her comfortable, but it’s on Carol to resolve at this point. But I am curious about how fearfully she’s reacting. If she’s causing a scene every time she sees your dog, then that’s probably going to start being a problem for more people than just Carol.

            1. OP #3*

              Basically running/semi-fainting sideways or going in the other direction. So far it hasn’t caused a scene, but I definitely think it’s within the realm of possibility.

              1. Thlayli*

                Do you think it would be worth you asking carol again if she thinks moving would be good? She may have been over-optimistic about her ability to cope, and be worried that she can’t change her mind now.

              2. [insert witty user name here]*

                Oh wow. Semi-fainting is actually a pretty extreme reaction! How has any of this affected your dog? I mean, I know service dogs go through A LOT of training and are generally selected for their calm demeanor and non-reactivity, but they are still dogs and therefore, pick up on things like fear and can react to them accordingly. Hopefully your dog is just suuuuuper chill about the way Carol acts, but it’s definitely another consideration if they are exposed to this all the time. A minor consideration, hopefully, but one nonetheless.

                Good luck!

                2. FCJ*

                  Depending on what the dog is trained for, this could be really crucial. I have a friend who has a service dog for anxiety and PTSD, and the dog’s training and instincts are to go TOWARD people who are stressed. She’s very well trained and under my friend’s control, so there’s no danger of her physically intruding on people who don’t want her attention, but sensing such a strong fear reaction from someone nearby might distract her from assisting the person she’s supposed to assist. I don’t know and I’m not asking why the OP requires the dog, but if that’s any part of the reason, then your point is even more important.

              3. Ave*

                Have you asked her if there is anything specific you can do to make it easier for her?

                It’s admirable that you were trying to ensure that she doesn’t have to deal with your dog. However, it is entirely possible that she is actually trying to face her fears and desensitize herself.

                If you don’t know her preference, don’t assume it. Yes, she may want to avoid the dog at all costs. But she also may want to be around it and try to conquer her fear.

                Don’t assume her best interest. Ask.

                1. OP #3*

                  I did ask Carol and she said she didn’t know. She just want to never see or get near my dog, but that is proving impractical.

                2. Snark*

                  @ OP3 – How frustrating. If someone is reacting that strongly to you, “I don’t know” is not really an acceptable answer when pressed for a workable solution.

                1. Tardigrade*

                  Yeah, it sounds pretty scene-ish to me too. And my point in asking was I think Carol does probably need to move desks. I’m not unsympathetic to being afraid of dogs, but she can’t act out a horror movie scene every day; that’s not fair to OP or her other coworkers.

                2. Clisby Williams*

                  And this is a sign that OP needs to move himself/herself and the dog away from Carol. Jeez, why is this not obvious? The OP is bringing a potentially (I’m having to restrain myself from saying inherently) dangerous animal to work. The OP is the one who needs to bend over backwards to make sure the dog is not bothering anyone.

                3. OP #3*

                  @Clisby Williams, as I have stated repeatedly, I offered to move to a different desk. HR asked Carol if she wanted me to move, and she said no. And I cannot simply move to a different desk without permission, as my work does require me to use certain software that isn’t not easily transferable. Also, you seem fixated on my dog as a threat. I assure you that the fax machine is more of a hazard to my coworker than my dog. She is trained to assist me, and your ableism appears to be clouding your view.

                  Again, I offered to move desks. That Carol refused is in the past, and is besides the point now.

                4. Snark*

                  Clisby, you’re out of line. If you perceive inherent danger in a service dog, that’s your business, but such a belief is completely irrational and uninformed – not to mention incredibly discriminatory against the disabled. And Carol was offered the chance to move and didn’t.

            2. else*

              Carol might be trying to work on her own fear through exposure? If she thought, “well, maybe if this dog that I KNOW to be well-trained and managed is there, I can reduce my fears”, but it isn’t working well for her this way… I do think that it’s more on her at this point because she’s been offered the chance to move, but it might be good to ask once more, and then just let it go. It has to be annoying and it might unnerve your dog if she’s jumping and skittering every time she sees it, but as long as it doesn’t lead to her actually refusing to work with you or harassing your dog, there isn’t much more you can do without her lead. I think you’ve done all you can try to do, which is very kind of you, as you aren’t obligated at all.

              1. nonymous*

                yeah but the way to work through that isn’t “force myself to work 2ft away from dog I’m scared of”, it’s “I’m okay with dogs at 2ft for 5min, now try 5min30sec” or “I’m okay with dogs at 20ft, now try 19ft”. Small, incremental steps that set the person up for success. If someone is at the fight or flight stage, they’re pushing it too much. The goal is to start at the “eh, okay” point and move into the “slightly squicky” stage and find the coping mechanisms that will turn this stage into “eh, okay” territory. Rinse and repeat.

                Carol has such a strong reaction to dogs at this proximity, all she’s doing is flooding her own system, and that is not a technique with a good track record for desensitization.

      2. eplawyer*

        Just out of curiousity – how long has it been? I have a phobia of dogs. But not service dogs because I know reputable ones are well trained. Still a bit nervous but I could cope with a service dog. Also familiarity breeds well familiarity. If this is still fairly new, her brain is still processing that it’s okay to see a big dog walking around. After a few months, her brain will have processed — big dog walking around but nothing will happen to me. It might make lessen her reaction.

        1. CM*

          I like the idea of having a conversation with Carolyn, and maybe it would help if you explained how thoroughly service dogs are trained. It’s nice to see a problem where both people are doing their best to be mature and thoughtful instead of the usual “my coworker is being a jerk.”

          1. Lynn Whitehat*

            I wonder if she just doesn’t know it’s a “real” service dog. Now that so many people are ordering “therapy dog” vests from Amazon so they can bring their pets with them everywhere, it’s hard to know which dogs are legit.

        2. OP #3*

          I’ve had my dog at work for several weeks but there are other service dogs in the office for months. As far I know, Carol avoids those dogs too.

          1. Jennifer Thneed*

            OP, please stop asking Carol what she wants or needs. Please just *tell* HR that *you* need to move desks. If you’re sitting where Carol doesn’t need to see your dog every day, it will probably be easier for her — and for you too, since you won’t be distracted by her distraction. (And probably easier for your dog, too. Even though they’re trained for calm behavior, they’re still handling a stressful situation.)

            But the hallway thing needs dealing with, and that’s not just your dog, right, but all dogs? Carol maybe needs an understanding with everyone that if she crosses paths with you (any of you), she’ll stand still and quiet and you’ll pass her as quickly as possible. Or something similar. Maybe you and another dog-having person can take Carol out for coffee and a frank (and dog-free) conversation? I think everyone has the same goal here, even if Carol doesn’t realize it.

          2. Bleeborp*

            Ultimately, does Carol’s reaction cause a disturbance in your work or others? I do feel like even if you move desks you will still be privy to her reactions when you walk around. As a kind person I’m sure it sucks that you see her distressed but if you can continue walking quickly where you need to go, the interaction will be over quickly. It doesn’t seem Carol knows what she needs and doesn’t like being asked- I’m sure she wishes she knew a workable solution, too. If the only way for Carol to not have a negative reaction is to not ever see dogs, there’s no way you can make your dog invisible and it is kind of out of your hands beyond being as considerate as you have been.

  9. LouiseM*

    Ugh, OP #1, that sounds terrible! Ironically, even though I am a trained doula, I do not enjoy hearing childbirth talk over my PB&J. This reminds me of my old workplace, where I had three coworkers give birth within the span of a year and a half. As someone who has not been able to get pregnant, AND the person who had to pick up all of their slack at work while they each took as much as 12 weeks of maternity leave, you can say I wasn’t thrilled. It was hard not to get a bit resentful after awhile, but I chose the higher road by asking them about their babies and filling them in on all the things they had missed when they were gone. I think they eventually got the hint.

    1. Lucy M.*

      “AND the person who had to pick up all of their slack at work while they each took as much as 12 weeks of maternity leave”

      Ouch. The maternity leave in the US sucks as it is, please don’t make women feel guilty for exercising their legal right. I understand that having to cover for others for 36 weeks over the course of a year and a half must have been frustrating, but that’s on your employer for perhaps not hiring temps or the like, not on the 3 women.

      1. Mary Connell*

        Yeah. “As much as 12 weeks.” As if that’s some sort of luxury. A year would be reasonable, like other civilized countries, with employers taking coverage seriously.

        1. Julia*

          That’s how you get a next generation of workers for the company, after all. And people who take care of us when we’re old and need it (not that I expect my future children to do that, but someone has to work in the nursing homes).

          1. TootsNYC*

            It’s how you get the next generation of CUSTOMER for the company, and taxpayers for our country. If you want to be only mercenary about.

        1. Anonny*

          Agreed. As someone who has been trying for a long time and struggling (many failed attempts and some losses), seeing other people leave for maternity AND having to cover for them is painful. It hurts.

          12 weeks isn’t nearly long enough and all women should get longer leaves in the US. But it feels like an eternity to me, sitting at my desk, covering people’s work, wanting nothing more than to be a mom myself and it not happening.

      3. Thlayli*

        “That’s on your employer for not hiring temps”

        This. So much this. I am on a working moms board and the number of women who have UNPAID maternity leave, whose companies do not hire temps to cover, is astounding. They get so much grief from their coworkers that they feel guilty exercising their legal right to take time off. It’s awful.

        Put the blame where it belongs. If you know in advance that someone will be our for 3 months (and usually unpaid three months) then you hire a flipping temp!

        1. Colette*

          There are many jobs where temps aren’t an option – because it’ll take too long to train them or because they need special security clearance that takes a long time to get or because they need special, rare qualifications.

          That doesn’t mean that people should avoid taking leave, but temps are not always a solution.

          1. Thlayli*

            Usually people don’t spend 100% of their time doing those tasks though. A temp cab also function as an additional body in the department to take up the slack on non-expert tasks. So instead of 3 llama experts, you have 2 llama experts and a secretary to help them with all the admin stuff that goes along with llama experting.

            Plus, in this case we are talking about doulas. Doulas are pretty much interchangeable – hence why LousieM can “pick up the slack” for her coworkers. So why not just get another doula in on contract for 12 weeks? Most doulas are self-employed where I live so I can’t imagine it would be all that difficult to find one to cover maternity leave.

            1. YeOldAdmin*

              Oof, the mothers I know that used doulas did not at all find them to be “interchangeable”. Most seemed set on a person that they trusted and jelled with, so dropping a rando on them would have been stressful to say the least.

              There are just too many factors that we don’t know, for us to determine what her company could/should do. In any case, it doesn’t sound like she is in charge of staffing, so this isn’t her decision to make.

              1. Thlayli*

                Ok that was bad wording. Doulas are not completely interchangeable, and presumably LousieC’s colleagues don’t take on clients who are due to give birth around the same time as them.

                However they must be interchangeable to some degree, otherwise LouiseC would not be able to “take up the slack” at all. For the parts of the work that Louise is doing, another doula should be able to do.

                This is the case with most work. Some aspects of the work can ONLY be done by the specific person (like the elected representative who wants to bring her newborn baby with her to cast a vote who was discussed on them open thread last week). Some aspects can be done by other people in the specific team, for example using company-specific databases or software, and some can be done by any other qualified person, for example a locum Doctor, pharmacist, midwife or doula.

                In LouiseC’s case there were 3 women on leave within a year, so it wouldn’t even need to be a temp, it would have been better to hire an additional doula for the year to cover the extra work.

                In most countries it’s completely the norm to hire someone to cover maternity leave. Many young professionals work for a few years doing maternity leave cover before getting a permanent job. This is extremely common in predominantly female jobs such as teaching, nursing and midwifery. Though, as I said, most doulas are self employed here as our government-funded healthcare system does not cover doulas. Just Midwives and doctors. So it would be up to each individual doula to organise cover for her own maternity leave.

                1. Colette*

                  I’m in a country with year+ maternity leave, and I’ve never seen someone get hired to cover. It’s just not an option in the jobs I’ve had – either because of the work or because of the budget. Teams adjust in a variety of ways.

                2. Thlayli*

                  That’s bizarre. In my country we have 10 months and many people only take 6 months, but maternity cover contracts are the norm. You can’t expect a 3-person department to work for a year with only 1 or 2 people.

                  Are employers obligated to pay maternity leave for a year where you live? Where I live it’s covered by social welfare and employers don’t have to pay a penny (though many of them do top up the social welfare payment as a way of retaining/attracting staff).

                  If not employers are not legally obliged to pay maternity pay, then the “we can’t afford a temp” argument is a total red herring.

                3. Colette*

                  Most of maternity leave is paid for by the government; employers top up. But that doesn’t mean that there’s a bucket of money newly available if someone is on leave – they still have the commitment to the salary on the books, and they may not be hiring for unrelated reasons. They’ve never said they couldn’t afford a temp, but they did move work around, give acting promotions, and otherwise adjust.

            2. LouiseM*

              I see that my comment must have been unclear in a variety of ways…I’m explaining more downthread, but here I’l just point out that the work I was talking about was not the work of a doula. That’s a side volunteer thing for me, my day-to-day is completely different. I simply brought up my doula work to demonstrate that I am, generally speaking, comfortable with childbirth.

      4. YeOldAdmin*

        Who said she was making them feel guilty? She just said she didn’t love hearing about childbirth while eating, as a person who has hasn’t been able to get pregnant, and from several women she had to cover for a large portion of the time. Any one of those sucks on its own, but altogether sucks enough that I’m not at all shocked she wasn’t thrilled.

        No need to nitpick and pile on over the wording commenters use, and certainly not appropriate to insinuate they’re guilting other women in their office.

        1. Murphy*

          She’s complaining about how much maternity leave they were taking. That’s not being nitpicky.

          1. YeOldAdmin*

            The nitpicky part imo is determining that because she worded things that way, she is guilting her coworkers, blames them instead of the employer/crap maternity leave in this country, or thinks 12 weeks is a luxury.

            She is allowed to be frustrated (& probably hurt) because the situation sucked on her end. It doesn’t mean she is automatically frustrated with the individuals or taking it out on them. It sounds like she covered the leaves, asked about the babies, and has been friendly with them, so anything beyond that is coming from people nitpicking on wording or projecting.

        2. MLB*

          “AND the person who had to pick up all of their slack at work while they each took as much as 12 weeks of maternity leave, you can say I wasn’t thrilled”

          She emphasized the fact that they took 12 weeks for maternity leave. That stood out to me more than anything in her statement too. I can understand if she’s upset that she can’t get pregnant while everyone at work around her is having a baby, but bitching about a full 12 weeks off after having a baby is petty and unnecessary.

          1. grace*

            I took that to mean more that it was up to 12 weeks each — which from any standpoint, is a long time to be covering for coworkers. I’d be pretty resentful personally. Though I notice you left out the part where she mentions she tried not to be resentful and engage them in conversations about their babies….

            2. Thlayli*

              You’d be resentful if people took 12 weeks off to have a baby?

              You should be resentful… of your EMPLOYER who is forcing you to do the work of two people, not of your colleague who is taking the lowest amount of maternity leave in the developed world.

          2. YeOldAdmin*

            I took that comment as an explanation of just how much time she spent picking up slack. If she had just said 3 maternity leaves, that could be a whole lot of different scenarios. Covering for one person for twelve weeks, on three separate occasions, is a large amount of time.

            She mentioned frustration in a comment section, not to these women. Telling people they aren’t allowed to express frustration or pain, because it is unnecessary and petty, is not going to do anyone any good and is incredibly unkind.

            1. MLB*

              I never said people couldn’t vent about frustrations. She put the emphasis on the 12 weeks part, so that’s what caught my attention. To me, she’s basically saying “How dare they take a full 12 weeks maternity leave”, when 12 weeks i not enough time (but that’s a separate issue altogether). If she had to cover for them, and had little to no help, that’s an issue with how her company handles leave, and her frustration should be aimed at the company and not at the women who dared to have babies.

        3. LouiseM*

          Thanks, YeOldAdmin. I see now that I could have worded my comment better, but I’m still surprised by how many people chose the least charitable interpretation of my words.

          To clarify, I think maternity leave should be a great deal longer and that companies should make it much easier than it currently is for new parents (of any gender) to take leave. The resentment that people were picking up on from me was not directed at my colleagues who were exercising their legal rights, or anyone, really. I was simply commenting that for me PERSONALLY it was demoralizing to never have been pregnant, to be overworked for a variety of reasons, and to then hear my coworkers talking about something I will never experience.

          1. Snark*

            If you find that people uncharitably interpret your words often, there’s a common denominator there. My impression of your posting style is that you often choose to express yourself in a manner that, if it’s not consciously abrasive and rude, is very easy to interpret that way.

            1. CutUp*

              No, I think that this comment section is pretty heavily populated by people who take extreme positions (including your positions, ie jumping on anyone who proposes something outside of western medicine as “Woo”). Just because there’s a pile on doesn’t mean that the consensus is justified. I think Louise is a breathe of fresh air and certainly no more abrasive than anyone else.

              1. Snark*

                Feel free to challenge my posts on topics unrelated when we’re actually discussing them, but you can’t possibly think a gratuitous, snotty personal attack legitimately advances the conversation here and now, can you?

          2. 12345*

            I understood what you meant. There is a tendency on this board to take someone venting about something here – on a web blog and forum – as a sign they are shitty to the people they work with. I find it weird. But it happens A LOT.

    2. Susie Q*

      Legally they have the right to take 12 weeks. Your issue should be with your employer not doing the appropriate temp staffing and not with the women taking their legal right. Frankly, 12 weeks of unpaid maternity leave feels like the least a developed nation like the US could do.

    3. Tobias Funke*

      Between “there must be something wrong with your vagina” and “actually took maternity leave, you have really shined a light on how you feel about women. Consider the replies your comments get and take them into account.

      1. CutUp*

        I don’t think that mentioning that someone is describing unusual amounts of pain is the same as having a sexist attitude. Also, Louise clearly said she makes a point to act professionally and politely to her colleagues. Your inferences are pretty absurd and bordering on thought policing.

          1. CutUp*

            I agree that the comment about maternity leave is debatable. I don’t think there’s anything sexist about saying pain is unusual. One questionable comment is not a pattern, so there’s nothing to point out.

  10. OwlSays*

    My coworkers also love to talk about childbirth, and pregnancy, at lunch outings. As someone who couldn’t have a child, ouch. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve snuck away and stood around in the restroom for as long as I could, only to return to the table and find the conversation still happening. I’ve never said anything, because I don’t really feel I have any right to. I just try to avoid going to lunch with my department. It’s truly a painful subject and I can’t really deal with it emotionally. I sort of wish people could just talk about work at work, most of the time. Team-building lunches are the pits.

    1. Chameleon*

      Yeah, when I was trying to get pregnant and had been told that there was no hope of natural conception, that was right when about three co-workers got pregnant and talked about nothing else. It was pretty terrible. (Turns out the doctor was wrong, thankfully!)

    2. Amelia*

      I’m so sorry, OwlSays. I’m in the same boat, and it is super painful. When I think of all the times right after my pregnancy losses that I put a smile on my face and powered through conversations that were all baby, all the time…I feel like there is an Oscar with my name on it.

      1. Julia*

        Not an Oscar, a freaking gold medal! I’m very sorry. :(
        I have endometriosis and we’re pretty set on adopting, but every time someone who knows I have problems and take meds asks “are you pregnant?” because I don’t like to mix meds and alcohol, I die a little inside.

    3. AJK*

      I’m so sorry, OwlSays. It is so hard, I’ve ducked away from many conversations myself. When I was actively trying and going through treatments I shared my cubicle area with three other women, all of them mothers, and it seemed like all they talked about was pregnancy, childbirth, and babies. I thought my head was going to explode sometimes. It took years for me to get to a place where I can sit and smile and nod and not have to escape during those conversations.

    4. Ave*

      Thank you.

      It’s not just the topic can be gross, medical, or focused on genitals.

      It’s that the topic of pregnancy can be triggering for folks who have difficulty conceiving or who have lost a child.

  11. Amy Farrah Fowler*

    OP 5 – I soooo feel you. I have been in your situation and it sucks so bad to come in 2nd (or 3rd or 4th). Before I got my current position, I was a part-timer for several years and got through many hoops before being turned down for a full time role about 3-4 times.

    The last time, I wasn’t going to apply because I didn’t feel like I could handle more rejection, but one of the managers reached out and invited me to apply. I’ve been in my role for about 10 months now, and I love it! I’m sorry you’ve been a runner up multiple times, but if you were truly a bad fit, they wouldn’t continue to encourage you to reapply. They want a strong candidate pool and they think you are a strong candidate.

    1. OP5*

      Thanks, it’s definitely frustrating. Every time I get close to a new job and don’t get it, its such a letdown. Everything that annoys me at my current job seems magnified. It’s hard to go back to it. I had sort of written this place off, but they actually reached out to me again to ask me to reapply, which I ultimately did. We’ll see what happens! It’s nice to hear about it working out for someone though!

      1. Katie*

        Another note of encouragement: my husband interviewed for a job at (government agency), was shortlisted, didn’t get the job, they asked him to continue applying. This happened about four times. After eight months or so of this, they called him to say that they had an opening that they thought would be perfect for him, and that if a preliminary interview went well, they wouldn’t even post the position publicly. He’s been in the job for four years and loves it.

          1. tangerineRose*

            I had a co-worker who applied a few times before he got a job – management encouraged him to reapply too, because they wanted to hire him. He didn’t get the first jobs because there were better candidates, but he was still a good candidate.

      2. Amy Farrah Fowler*

        Yeah, it was really hard for me because I was already part-time at the company and so getting the rejection meant that I could continue in my part-time role, but it was beginning to sour me on the company overall, making me think I needed to get out of the company all together because I couldn’t take the rejection anymore. After the last rejection before I got the position, I told my husband that I wouldn’t apply to full time roles anymore because emotionally I couldn’t handle being rejected anymore. I really think that if the manager hadn’t reached out, I wouldn’t have ended up applying at all, and I would have missed out on a great job that I love. It is so SO SOOO hard during that time though. I wouldn’t blame you if you decided not to continue to apply there, and focused your applications elsewhere just for the sheer frustration. But I do hope you get it this time!

      3. Artemesia*

        If you are getting interviews, you are good. After that it is either small things, or bad luck. Obviously you evaluate your appearance, interview skills etc and work on those, but most of all concentrate on the fact that you are getting interviews and are therefore competitive and impressive. My daughter had a run of luck like this with countless interviews where she was runner up; then she landed a great job that paid about 30K more than her previous job (her company had folded when she was out on maternity leave). Hope your luck changes but know that the fact that you are getting interviews says a lot about what you have to offer.

      4. Tad03102*

        One more note of encouragement. After my second interview for my current job the recruiter reached out to me and told me I wasn’t going to be moved forward to a third interview. She made it a point to tell me how happy my interviewers were with me, and that the company just wasn’t hiring in my location. I remember the voicemail so well because it seemed like the nicest rejection ever!!

        Two weeks later she called me back and scheduled a third interview and I got the job.

        True to their word though, they never hired anyone in my location after me and the office recently closed.

        Sometimes it really has nothing to do with you.

    2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      It sucks from the employer side too! At my last job, I had a coordinator role that has several analogous roles throughout the company, and I found a candidate when I was helping to hire for one of them that was really good, but just edged out by someone else. Since then, I’d referred her to probably 4 other similar jobs at the company; she got interviews for almost all of them, and all the interviewers agreed that she was really good, but she ended up not getting hired again and again (in one case, they ended up promoting internally; in another, they ended up cutting the position, etc). I felt so bad! But, I did keep doing it because I knew she could be a good match. This story doesn’t have a happy ending, at least not yet, but we’re now connected on LinkedIn and growing a professional relationship and hopefully we’ll be able to help each other out in the future :)

  12. kas*

    #3. I’m afraid of dogs (although I’m usually fine around service dogs) and I don’t think there’s anything you can do to make Carol feel comfortable other than to avoid her.

    I’ve had people try to get me to be comfortable around dogs by trying to get me to pet them, feed them, etc. and I would rather they not.

    I agree with Alison’s suggestions though, I’d speak to Carol.

    1. Tau*

      +1, as someone else who’s not comfortable around dogs. There are people who think that clearly exposure is the issue and if they pressure me into being around their dog and interacting with their dog I will magically turn into a dog-lover. They are wrong, and the resulting experience is not fun.

    2. Sabine the Very Mean*

      You’re also extremely sensitive and kind about all of this. Lesser people would be resentful. I think you’re already half way there, OP. Maintain a great attitude about it and you can’t go wrong.

      1. NotAnotherMananger!*

        Yes, I agree with this! My daughter is (inexplicably) terrified of dogs, and I am always so grateful when people are compassionate and don’t push her rather than insisting said dog is “really friendly!” and encouraging her to interact with it more. We hope that she will grow out of it, but it’s nice to see someone being sensitive to those who aren’t comfortable with dogs.

        I’m not a huge dog person, but, in my experience, service dogs are well-trained and never an issue, behavior-wise. It’s not uncommon to see them on the metro, and they are invariably curled up under their owner’s seat.

    3. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      Just curious – if you do see this… I have a small dog who is extremely calm and non-reactive. Sometimes when I can tell someone has a fear of dogs (usually its strangers – typically a small child with a parent actually, but it’s happened with closer friends/acquaintances as well) I’ll offer to let them pet my dog or bring my dog over to them if they’d like to try petting her, while noting that she’s very calm/friendly. I just like to offer because if the person would like to work through their fears, I know that my dog would be a very good first step.

      I only ask once (I’d never push if they decline), and I never make a physical move towards them until after they verbally agree. Also if they hesitate – I take that as a no and tell them “no worries if you’re not uncomfortable” and move on.

      Do you think that’s ok? I don’t want to “force” people to face their fears – that’s totally up to them and how they want to handle the situation. I just figure that if it is something they would like to work on (I guess I do encourage everyone to work on any fears that might effect their day-to-day life, but do recognize that ultimately its a personal choice) – well I have the perfect dog for it.

      1. kas*

        I think what you’re doing is ok! When asked those questions my answer is no 99.9% of the time but if asked once and the dog owner drops the questioning, I’m ok with that. I’ve said yes once or twice when the dog was super small.

        I’ve had people ask me multiple times after I’ve already said no or try to inch closer which is not cool.

      2. bonkerballs*

        Personally, if you were a total stranger, I’d find this off putting. I think a lot of people who aren’t comfortable with/are afraid of dogs get a lot of crap for it. I know I do. From people I know and from strangers. People who absolutely will not take no for an answer, even if it’s just of the variety of showing me pictures of their dog while telling me “no one could be scared of MY dog, he’s the best boy in the whole world, isn’t he so sweet?” And people can get nasty about it. We’ve seen it in comment threads here on occasion. So you may know you’re just giving people a chance to face their fears, and that you’re totally willing to take no as an answer, but *I* don’t know that. And since I’ve already come across to you as uncomfortable or scared of your dog, engaging with you even more about your dog is absolutely not something I want to do. But that’s just me.

    4. Half-Caf Latte*

      Yes to this. And I do not understand why the near-universal reaction of dog-owners is “you’ll love my fluffykins if you just get to know her!”

      1. nonymous*

        My assumption is more along the lines of “My dog might like you if she got to know you, but right now she’s kinda scared!” Honestly, someone who is extremely fearful of dogs may unintentionally do something harmful (like offer them a piece of chocolate cookie).

        Even my goober of a lab who thinks most humans are just giant treat & ear rub dispensers doesn’t like everyone he meets. Dogs may be naturally curious and most don’t have any desire to start conflict, but that doesn’t mean insta-friends.

    5. HS Teacher*

      I’m uncomfortable with certain breeds, but fine with most dogs. I have a beagle at home, but still have a scar from a vicious pit bull attack when I was a child. I am certainly fine with service dogs, but I do hate this trend of people bringing their dogs everywhere. I also wish there were stricter rules about how businesses can handle dogs being brought in.

      I love my dog, but he doesn’t belong at a grocery store or a restaurant, unless said restaurant has an outdoor area specifically for dogs.

      1. kas*

        I hate that trend too! Years ago when I was interning, I accepted a position at a nearby company and I didn’t know they had an office dog (they didn’t bring it in the day of my interview or mention it). Imagine my surprise when I see a big, black Lab on my first day.

        When my internship ended I had the chance to stay on and I didn’t. I just did not feel comfortable with a dog in the office.

        1. Ali*

          I absolutely adore dogs and have a couple myself, but I totally agree with you. I’ve worked in offices with people from various African countries where dogs are often carriers of disease or half-wild and can be dangerous, so have fear responses to dogs. I’ve worked with Muslims who do not want to be around dogs for religious reasons. Much as I would love an office FULL of dogs, I don’t think dogs belong in offices because I’m aware not everyone shares my doggie love. For qualified service animals (not “therapy peacocks” or whatever nonsense people are trying to pass off now) accommodations absolutely should be made, but people who just want to bring their dog to work? Nope.

  13. Kaleid*

    #4 -women often take their purse to the bathroom because they have to carry sanitary products. Just find a discreet looking small bag you can put tissues or a partly used roll of tp in. Put it in your pocket if you can. Most people will not even notice it, or think you are going to the lunchroom, or out on an errand. If anyone does happen to ask, just tell them that it is some personal care items, or a medical requirement, and change the subject. (If your skin is being irritated it is medical- you could get a dermatologist to tell you this, but you already know!)

      1. AcademiaNut*

        But men get pockets. So they discreetly carry some tissues in their pocket when they go to the washroom.

          1. Us, Too*

            I use it to blow my nose, wipe my eyes if I’m teary, etc. And I imagine men have similar use cases.

    2. Yorick*

      I don’t carry my purse to the bathroom and I’d be annoyed to have to start, especially because the office cheaped out on TP.

      OP4 can carry their own TP, but I think it’s totally appropriate to ask whoever is in charge if they can switch to the old TP.

    3. Bea*

      I’ve never seen a woman in an office setting taking a purse with her, that would be so odd. You take your purse for safety purposes, you’re out and about in a public restroom. In an office you put your napkin or tampon in your pocket! Or palm it when you have giant hands like me.

      1. Kelly L.*

        It would seem weird to me to find it weird to take your purse! :) It’s very normal in my experience.

        1. Pomona Sprout*

          Agreed. I’ve always taken my purse to the bathroom wherever I’ve worked. I don’t notice if others do or not, and I don’t care.

      2. Bleeborp*

        Same, I’ve never seen a woman take her purse to the bathroom. To be honest, I’ve never been sure where other women put their sanitary items- we don’t always have pockets! I put mine in my bra, I have big boobs though, I don’t know if that’s an option for everyone!

      3. Ali*

        I used to palm my tampon too, until I decided f*ck it, if someone gets offended seeing a wrapped, unused tampon, that’s on them.

      4. Teddie Kuma*

        I actually have a small soft make-up pouch of sanitary products, not a purse. I have extras in there, since sometimes I’m not sure if I need a full pad or just a liner so I just keep them all in one pouch.

        For TP, though, I really probably wouldn’t care if anyone sees me carrying one to the bathroom. If someone asks I can simply shrug and say, “I just prefer this TP.” and move along. I’ve heard and smelled all sorts of stuff in the restroom, I’m past being discreet – people pee and poop, and we’re all adults. :)

  14. Artemesia*

    Re referral guy. This is so wildly inappropriate, that I would be discussing this with him immediately after bringing it up with your own supervisor (unless you are the head of HR and maybe even then) and I would probably give his manager a heads up. It should be made really clear that he is not authorized to interview or recruit candidates; he could be doing some major damage with this not to speak of misleading candidates who believe they are being recruited or interviewed. By calling up strangers he is interviewing. I’d be even inclined to ban him specifically from making any referrals in the future. Can’t you imagine a glassdoor review in which his clumsy attempts become the public face of your companies recruitment efforts?

    1. Casuan*

      Yes, he’s abusing the system & he should be told of this &or restricted.
      OP22, as Alison said, you can definitely tell this employee that he shouldn’t be screening candidates & referring them. In theory, I think it’s practical to update the employee on the referral, however I don’t think that’s warranted in this case because the employee can misinterpret this as validation.

    2. Perse's Mom*

      My employer has referral incentives – if someone you refer lasts X months in good standing, the referrer gets $. This has backfired multiple times in my department. I’m sure it’s partly because our hiring methods are sub-par (cue: “but he’s so nice!” from my boss about one new hire who took 3x longer to train) but also because a couple of referrers have made promises they had no authority to make (sure you can telework! (in a position that’s not eligible for it)).

      I kinda wish referrals were treated more like recommendations. Might get people to more carefully consider who they refer.

      1. Antilles*

        Right. It *should* be treated as vaguely similar to a recommendation. Maybe not quite to the same standard, but along the broadly similar. Of course, you’re not a hiring manager and might not be in the best position to completely judge the viability of someone’s candidacy, but…well, you work here already, you should have some kind of idea the skillset/culture/etc that we like here.
        Also, a referral should basically be separate from the hiring process. You gave us the resume, explained the connection, mentioned why you thought he might be a good fit…and then you took a bow and walked offstage, because you have no more lines in this play.

      2. LBK*

        I’ve always thought of them as the same thing. I guess interpreted literally, a referral is just a neutral passing along of information without any editorializing while a recommendation carries an explicit endorsement of the person for the job, but I think in either case the implication is that you think the person would be a good fit for the job. You shouldn’t even be referring people if you don’t have a pre-existing sense of their qualifications (and I don’t mean skimming their LI page like this guy is doing).

      3. Marillenbaum*

        I only referred one person for a job (it was my only post-undergrad job before I went back to grad school), but I feel really good about how it worked out. He was a friend from undergrad (the job was at our alma mater) and I’d always had a good feeling about his work ethic and professionalism from when we did theatre together. I told him to apply when a position came open, since he was looking to move back to the area, and mentioned his application to my boss. Apparently, he nailed the interview so hard that afterwards, my boss told me to tell him that “if he doesn’t hear from us right away, it’s just because HR is slow and not that we didn’t like him, because we really really like him!” He started about a month later, and was essentially a model employee until he left to move to Boston with his girlfriend. I feel like going forward, someone has to be another Nate for me to refer them.

      4. Ceniza*

        I hated my old companies referral incentive. I did phone screens and we had one employee who would refer multiple people every time. They often had plagiarized resumes – he’d submit two candidates with a different first page, but the same second page. The candidates would list his number under a different name as a reference. And he would demand to know why we didn’t move forward…

        I don’t entirely blame this employee. Our company’s hiring practices left a lot to be desired. I’d complete a phone screen and note my concerns (previous employer indicated a lack of professional-level writing, candidates who called me up to 8 times a day to ask about their job even though I was never involved in hiring decisions, candidates whose spouses called me multiple times asking why they couldn’t be a reference when the candidate had no job history) and we hired each of these people. None of whom lasted past four months.

    3. One of the Sarahs*

      I’m pretty horrified he’s “screening” candidates by phone too – so dodgy in so many ways!

      1. CM*

        It does seem like that should be a reason to revoke referral incentives for him. Not necessarily say he can no longer refer anyone, but he won’t get anything out of it. Yes this is specifically directed at him because he is acting as a recruiter without any authority or training to do so!

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          At the very least, there should be an annual limit on referrals that earn bonuses. (And the bonus should only apply if the person lasts x amount of time, too.)

      2. LBK*

        Agreed – it would be one thing if he were basically just forwarding LinkedIn profiles along blindly and trying to pass them off as people he had some vague connection to, but the fact that he is basically phone interviewing them before passing them to the OP is shocking. That’s extremely inappropriate to the point that if he didn’t stop immediately I would consider firing him – completely unacceptable to be positioning himself as a representative of the company in that way.

        I think you can be very clear with him that while there aren’t explicitly written rules saying you can’t do this, it’s generally understood that the referral bonus is meant for people who refer candidates that they have an existing relationship with and can vouch for in some way. He’s shown a clear lack of understanding of the spirit of the program and he’s also wildly overstepped his boundaries in terms of contacting people about open positions at the company and as such, he’s no longer allowed to submit referrals. And then it may behoove you to write up some more formal guidelines for acceptable referrals so that you don’t run into this in the future.

        1. Reba*

          Yes, I think OP2 is right to intuit that the employee will try to do some rules lawyering when their scheme gets shut down (“but the policy doesn’t say X! I’m not breaking any rules!”) But that does not mean that OP2 can’t challenge them and exercise some authority. In case of rules lawyering you can say something like, “we don’t have detailed written rules about this because most people understand how referral bonuses, a common workplace practice, work. You are the only one trying to do it this way.”

          Another tack might be looking at how much time the employee spends on faux recruiting rather than their actual work — AND how much extra work it creates for OP2. Although OP2 doesn’t manage the employee, if it has really become a hassle, and the person has been asked to slow their roll but hasn’t, it could be something to bring up to their manager?

          1. Interviewer*

            Responding to rules lawyering, if it happens – “Congratulations, you found the loophole. We’re going to close it now, and also, we’re going to make another rule that applies only to you.”

        2. Bostonian*

          I agree that this is pretty severe. OP should definitely talk to this employee’s boss, too. Reaching out to strangers and doing screening calls for open positions when it’s not his job is wildly inappropriate.

      3. Artemesia*

        I am sort of horrified that the OP feels any hesitation in putting a stop to this. This guy is a loose canon misrepresenting the company. He has made himself an official recruiter and that is how his referrals are going to see him. He is the face of the company hiring to those people he is interviewing. Just major awful and dangerous.

    4. CityMouse*

      Agreed with everything here. He can be doing serious damage to the rep of your company because random people are going to think he is working in some kind of official capacity. This needs to be shut down asap.

    5. Hills to Die On*

      He sounds pretty clueless (telling you the guy just needs a ‘fighting chance’ after you already looked at him—!) and needs to be shut down in no uncertain terms. I would definitely get his manager involved and stop him from doing any referrals at all. He’s being ridiculous.

    6. Grumpy*

      I wonder if he’s taking money from candidates to refer them and get them an interview.
      By that I mean, I suspect he is taking money from candidates to get them an interview.

      Also, that Kureig ad this morning? It’s covering the articles on the screen and I can’t read them — and I’m in the market for a coffee maker for the office, but it definitely won’t be a Kureig right now. Grr.

    7. Naptime Enthusiast*

      +1, I tried to post a similar comment but I think it got eaten.

      I had to be trained by HR to do phone screens for potential interns, forget about full-time hires. Behavioral questions to ask, skill sets to ask about, rating system, questions that we CANNOT ask even if we used to ask them or we think they’re relevant, how to avoid answering questions that we’re uncomfortable with. I guarantee this guy is asking all kinds of bad questions, or giving bad answers to very good candidate questions (can I work from home? Sure! Is it a flexible schedule? Absolutely!) without considering whether that’s actually true across the board.

    8. Cassandra*

      OP2, is there any chance at all that Referral Guy is using your company as an excuse to run the “let’s meet to discuss the opening OH BY THE WAY let’s date” scam?

      This isn’t anywhere near a certainty based on what you’ve said, but it’s an eerie possibility that’s cropped up on AAM before. If you get even a whiff of this, the sooner you shut RG down, the better.

      1. LBK*

        Eh, I think that’s a stretch – given that there’s a referral bonus involved, I think the simplest explanation is just that he’s trying to make money off it by submitting as many referrals as he can. That’s a sufficiently shady behavior to shut it down without having to add a creep layer to it.

    9. Jesmlet*

      100% would ban him immediately from referring. He’s misrepresenting himself to these randos on LinkedIn for his own benefit. Any other suggestions depend on the structure of the referral program but I would also really recommend putting something in writing about who is being referred. I’d want you to be able to either vouch for them professionally or vouch for them personally for it to count as a referral.

    10. kapers*

      I come down pretty hard here. He’s presenting himself as a rep of your company, so he could really get your company in trouble (if he asks illegal questions, makes promises, makes financial arrangements; he could also just make you look really bad and damage your company’s public reputation.) It’s also a pretty serious abuse of the spirit of the perk, at least the way it works in every company I’ve worked for.

      An unqualified employee is plucking strangers from the web and setting up his own unauthorized HR department in an attempt getting money out of your company. I’d take the privilege away entirely. It’d be a good idea to rewrite the policy to make it clearer that it’s not to be used in this way, but even absent that, he needs to be shut down.

    11. Newt*

      My employer has referral bonuses in place, but requires that you refer people you *have a previous, reasonably recent working relationship with*. The idea being that you’ve observed that person in a working environment, have had your work impacted by theirs in some way, and can therefore vouch for them based on direct experience of their quality of work and their preferred office culture etc.

      What the “referral” amounts to is either the applicant putting our name/contact info on their application as a referral and us confirming we agree to act as referral, or us triggering the online job system to “invite” them to apply. Followed by us being asked about the applicant if they’re going to be invited to interview.

      I certainly wouldn’t invite strangers or linkedin contacts, and I absolutely wouldn’t conduct phone screenings! LW is right to be concerned and I really hope they nip this in the bud.

  15. Nobody Here By That Name*

    #4 This still puts the solution in your hands and on your wallet, but you can get small, portable rolls of toilet paper which might be easier to carry to the bathroom without drawing attention to yourself. Generally speaking they tend to be the size of the core of a regular roll of toilet paper.

    I’m pretty sure the comment system here sends links into moderation, so instead I’ll say if you’re interested you can search for “travel toilet paper”, or “toilet paper to go” to see options.

    1. AcademiaNut*

      Or when your TP rolls at home get near the end, grab them for work use. For that matter, you could just make little packets of TP that can be discreetly tucked into a pocket.

      1. Judy (since 2010)*

        For camping, we put rolls into a sandwich ziplock and pull the center cardboard off. You then use from the center of the roll, it takes up less space, and it can flatten out.

        1. Marillenbaum*

          I buy the rolls that come without the cardboard in the middle–this is because I am lazy, and found I was refusing to change the rolls when I had to pull off the cardboard bit to put on a new roll. Now, no problem!

    2. Wintermute*

      it’s ALL toilet paper “to go”? one of life’s ponderables.

      But I second the recommendation, bringing your own toilet tissue is really common in some countries, such as Japan, and they sell products just for that purpose, in very nice little packages that range from discreet to adorable.

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      I used to go backpacking all the time. You can buy “Tissue to Go” packets that easily fit in your purse or even your pocket! They are small, discreet, and inexpensive. The quality sounds higher than what the OP is dealing with; I remember them being at least 2-ply. I used to buy them at REI, but a quick internet search shows there’s tons of options on Amazon.

    4. TootsNYC*

      I would be so very tempted to MacGuyver some sort of mini shelf or Command Hook up underneath the sink itself, so no one could see it, and stash my TP there.

    5. Anon5*

      This is more of a “know your bathroom” situation, but if there are some storage cabinets in the bathroom, you could also leave a roll or pack of rolls in there. Other people may use it as well, but at least you won’t have to carry it from your desk all the time. In fact, if you saw someone taking the good TP from under the sink (or wherever storage is) you could ask them to contribute to the good TP stash!

      1. Perse's Mom*

        I think if it gets to that point, it’s probably better to ask people to chip in from the start, otherwise you run the risk of people thinking it’s free from some kind-hearted person and then being upset at being asked to help pay for it.

        Then again, based on the description of the person responsible for the change to awful tp, I kinda suspect if he found out his employees were “willing” to pay for their own tp, he’d just stop providing it entirely and let them foot the bill.

  16. Espeon*

    OP1, I’m with you. I find pregnancy/childbirth stuff just revolting (not to mention boring) and I’d be frustrated too.

    It’s just not polite or appropriate to casually discuss graphic or intimate things at work – unless that’s your job! If these people won’t take you seriously, remove yourself from the situation content in the knowledge that you’re not the problem here.

    If it starts happening during actual work (not breaks) then you can bring it up to your manager – I’ve had to do this previously, because I work with several horrid people.

    1. CanadianEngineerLibrarian*

      Revolting!

      Is breathing revolting?
      Is urinating revolting?

      It is being human .

      1. grace*

        Oh, come on. There’s a lot involved in childbirth that entails things we generally think are gross or icky or make us squeamish. Just because it’s human doesn’t mean someone can’t find it ‘revolting’.

      2. Espeon*

        As both a human being and, specific to this topic, a woman, I am perfectly entitled to find all manner of bodily functions revolting.

        And no, I don’t want to talk about urination at work either ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      3. paul*

        I don’t talk about the epic leak I took first thing in the AM at work either though.

        Or how thick my mucus is because these damn allergies.

        Or my sex life.

        Or any number of other things that are part of being human.

      4. Snark*

        And being human is, in point of fact, the illusorily coherent experience of a consciousness riding an occasionally leaky, not always perfectly functional wad of meat, gore, stinky things, and things that make embarrassing noises. Human bodies are objectively gross.

        If I were holding a detailed conversation about the precise shade of yellow, aroma, and duration of my morning piss over lunch, that’d be revolting too.

      5. Pollygrammer*

        I think an umbrella rule that anything involving body fluids is not an appropriate meal conversation is pretty reasonable. Urine, vomit, amniotic fluid, pus, etc. (Ugh, ven typing that grossed me out).

      6. Had Matter's Pea Tarty*

        As someone with tokophobia – a fear of pregnancy and childbirth – yes, they are revolting and overhearing someone go on in graphic detail about them will make me want to throw up.

      7. OP1*

        I mean, getting periods is part of being a human female but it doesn’t make it a good topic for mealtime.

      9. Mike C.*

        Not every graphic depiction of the human experience is part of a safe for work discussion.

  17. Stellaaaaa*

    OP3: You can’t “get” someone to like dogs if she simply doesn’t like dogs. This applies even more when there’s a genuine fear in play. It may feel like Carol is rejecting an essential part of your being, but it’s not your place to encourage her to overcome a fear just to make you comfortable. After all, your dog is making HER uncomfortable. These are the compromises we make when we want to participate in society. It would be a kindness if you told her you wouldn’t be offended if she moved desks.

    1. AJ*

      I don’t think the OP is trying to make/force Carol to be comfortable with her dog. The OP’s expectations sound very reasonable – that she understands not everyone likes dogs. It doesn’t sound like she is at all worried about “an essential part of her being getting rejected”

        1. Ice and Indigo*

          Come on. There’s no reason to assume that Carol has any issue with disability. My son is disabled and I’m a bit wary of dogs; the two have nothing to do with each other.

          1. Sylvan*

            If it affected your son’s ability to use a service dog if he needed one, well, they would have something to do with each other.

            I have had people visibly upset by my using crutches and/or leg braces. I wish they would try to manage that, but maybe they are already doing what they can. It makes using assistance when necessary more difficult than it needs to be and it makes you feel like just staying home.

            1. Ice and Indigo*

              I understand – believe me, I know those moments when you feel ‘Why did I leave the house?’ – and it’s really rude of people to put that on you. In solidarity, allow me to say: down with those people. Let us flip them off together.

              That said, I do think there’s a difference between a fear of dogs that inconveniently happens to include service dogs, and a fear of people going round being a living reminder that disability is a thing that can happen to people. Personally, I’ll take ‘awkward clash of difficulties’ over ‘can’t deal with reality and makes that other people’s problem when said other people are dealing with enough challenges already for Pete’s sake’ any day! One is about the disability itself, the other isn’t.

              And since you evidently have enough annoying people to deal with already, I won’t press the point any further; I’ll just wish you a nice day. :-)

              (Oh, and in case you’re worried: if my son ever needs a dog, I’ll just make myself get used to it. Let’s hope Carol will get more used to this one over time.)

    2. Sylvan*

      It sounds more like OP wants to make the dog less scary to Carol, though, not to get Carol to want to be BFFs with it.

      1. Marillenbaum*

        Exactly. It sounds like OP is coming from a place of compassion–her coworker is uncomfortable, and she would like to (within reason) ease her discomfort, because it can’t be fun to feel afraid at your desk.

    3. Phoenix Programmer*

      Oof. This came off a bit preachy. OP needs a service dog and their coworker who sits near them is afraid. It’s a human and thoughtful response to ask “can I help them not be afraid?”

      The answer is of course no but there doesn’t need to be a lecture on the societal contract and not feeling like your core being is rejected. Give the OP some credit.

    5. OP #3*

      I don’t want Carol to be BFFs with my dog; that could interfere with my dogs’ work, as she is supposed to be focused on me and not other people. My hope is that she could walk by my dog without fear, or at least not react fearfully when she sees my dog lying at my feet.

      1. Emi.*

        Hi! I am someone who is often nervous and uncomfortable around dogs, and I really appreciate the approach you’re taking (a lot of people are all “no my dog is great DON’T YOU LOVE HIM IN YOUR FACE RIGHT NOW,” which is the worst). I think Alison’s answer is good, and if you bring it up by email/phone/im/whatever’s usual in your office, so the dog isn’t right there, that might help too.

        Dogs that are visibly well-trained and under control are wayyyy less nerve-wracking, so if yours is, the problem may go away on its own as Carol gets more used to your dog and gains confidence that it’s safe. (By “visibly,” I mean visibly to non-dog-people, which mostly means leaving people alone, which it sounds like your dog is doing. It’s way easier to have confidence that a dog that’s always by its owner’s side is going to stay there than that a dog that runs up and sniffs you is going to *only* sniff you. My aunt used to have an enormous black lab that was perfectly trained to ignore you if you put your hands behind your back–it was seriously like you just became invisible. I was pretty scared of dogs at the time but I felt very safe around this one.)

        1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

          this. I’m uneasy around dogs because I can’t read their body language. If I can predict what a dog will do based on past experience, then I know how to deal. If that prediction is “looks at me and wags tail”, then I know the dog is friendly but won’t bother me. That can take some time to develop though.

        2. Riding Along*

          I’m afraid of dogs and I’m the same as you with regards to calm/well trained dogs being way less scary than, say, boisterous dogs. So, for me a well trained service dog would be something i could cope with.
          However, I am also afraid of bees, and that fear is far less rational. No amount of it calmly minding its own business prevents my fear response around them. it sounds to me like Carol falls much more on that end of the fear spectrum than our experience with dogs so I don’t think any amount of normalising this situation is going to allow Carol to be comfortable around dogs.

        1. OP #3*

          I’m not trying to control her reactions, but I was wondering if there was anything I could do to help reduce her fear. That’s why I wrote in to Alison. :)

        2. LBK*

          That’s kind of rude – sure, the OP isn’t under any obligation to do anything about it, but it’s nice and considerate to recognize that some people are uncomfortable around dogs. Is being nice and considerate not worthwhile in your opinion?

          1. Stellaaaaa*

            OP would prefer that Carol not react in the way that she does. I’m aware that it’s coming from a place of awareness and kindness, but it’s something that OP just has no say in. Carol may not want to become comfortable around this dog.

            1. justcourt*

              OP3 has responded to your thread at least twice now to clarify that she isn’t offended that Carol is afraid of her dog and that she doesn’t want to control how Carol reacts. OP3 has made it very clear that she wants some suggestions on how to help alleviate Carol’s fear. You’re misunderstanding or putting words into her mouth or projecting. It’s not helpful.

              1. Ice and Indigo*

                Besides that, the idea that Carol would rather stay afraid than gradually get more used to the fact that this is a safe dog and relax a bit seems … far-fetched. I’m not wild about dogs, and I’d much rather get comfortable, especially with a service dog that’s a genuine necessity for someone. Who prefers discomfort over comfort?

                OP3, you’re already doing the most effective thing a dog owner can do with a dog phobe, which is accept that the fear is involuntary and not get angry or pushy about it. (Rarer than it should be, alas; pushy dog owners can make up a big part of the phobia, as never knowing when you’ll be attacked by a person for being nervous of their dog massively raises the dog-stress: it feels like two potential threats at once.) I’m sorry it’s a problem for you, but you’re being awesome about it, and I hope that Carol picks up on this and starts to relax.

        3. Jesmlet*

          There are plenty of effective ways to confront phobias – exposure, systematic desensitization, counter-conditioning, etc. OP isn’t trying to control Carol’s reactions, she’s just asking what she can do as a non-therapist to help her feel more comfortable in some way, which FYI is an extremely nice thing to be doing.

      3. Vin Packer*

        I’m so impressed with your compassion for Carol, OP #3.

        I hope she comes around, for both of you.

      4. Clisby Williams*

        If you always keep your dog on a very short leash, do your best to put yourself between the dog and any approaching person, never allow the dog to approach another person, and never allow other people to schmooze with the dog so that it gets the idea it should interact with humans other than you, she might be able to deal with it in time.

        However, I vote for moving desks. I would never want to work around a dog.

        1. OP #3*

          Making demands of how a disabled person must interact with their service dog based on your comfort would likely not be considered a reasonable accommodation under the ADA.

    6. Snark*

      “It may feel like Carol is rejecting an essential part of your being, but it’s not your place to encourage her to overcome a fear just to make you comfortable. ”

      I’ll do it, then. If anybody is so phobic of dogs that the presence of a tranquil, well-trained service dog causes them visible fear and causes discomfort to the person who needs that dog to function, then I think the phobic person needs to work on overcoming that fear.

      1. fposte*

        “Could work,” maybe. “Needs to work” is pretty strong. It’s not like you go in, take an anti-phobic, and walk away cured, and it’s not like people have unlimited supplies of resources or have to put treating a phobia at the top of how they use them. Not every problem needs to be solved.

        She gives the dog a wide berth but is okay with a dog in the office (though I’d suggest the OP stop ducking behind walls). She may even *be* working on overcoming her fear–this is the kind of controlled exposure that a therapist could well approve as a desensitization.

        1. Lynca*

          But she really doesn’t just give the dog a wide berth. The OP mentioned in another thread that Carol runs or semi-faints when they are approaching. That’s a huge reaction that shouldn’t be put on the OP to deal with just because they need a service dog in the workplace.

          1. fposte*

            I agree it’s not the OP’s problem to deal with. I don’t agree that it’s imperative Carol decide to go to therapy as a result.

            1. Snark*

              Fair, but it is imperative that Carol stop treating the service dog like Cujo at work – however that works out.

              1. fposte*

                It’s really not, though. It’s desirable, but it’s also okay if Carol stays scared of the dog and the OP just keeps on keeping on.

                1. Snark*

                  I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect someone to keep on keeping on with someone visibly terrified of an accomodation they need for a disability. It’s ludicrous to imagine someone running in fear or faining at the sight of my hearing aids, or a prosthetic limb, or a wheelchair, but it has some of that flavor – and I don’t think it’s fair to make a necessary accomodation that big a deal. In effect if not in intent, I think it’s tantamount to harassing OP and the dog.

                2. Snark*

                  I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect someone to keep on keeping on with someone visibly terrified of an accomodation they need for a disability. It’s ludicrous to imagine someone running in fear or faining at the sight of my hearing aids, or a prosthetic limb, or a wheelchair, but it has some of that flavor – and I don’t think it’s fair to make a necessary accomodation that big a deal, or more to the point, to treat a disabled person differently and worse in the workplace.

                3. fposte*

                  @Snark–but I don’t know what you’re proposing. Is it that Carol be fired for being unable to conquer the visibility of her phobia, which is itself a condition that falls under the ADA?

                4. Snark*

                  @ fposte: I…..I dunno. Like I said below, we’ve got kind of an unstoppable force, immovable object thing. I am very not on Team Carol here, and I am angry that OP has to deal with her reactions. But a phobia is covered by the ADA. And she could be reassigned or relocated, but that doesn’t very well help OP.

              2. Susie Q*

                Phobias can be classified as a disability that is protected by the ADA. Granted this is on a case by case basis. But phobias are classified in the DSM-V and it would be best to tread lightly as it could cause backlash against the company if Carol decided to lawyer up especially since HR didn’t do something like change desks which could easily be classified as a reasonable accommodation.

        2. Snark*

          That’s all a fair point, but she did refuse to switch desks, so she’s not actually giving the dog as wide a berth as she could be. And as Lynca points out, her reactions are fairly dramatic.

      2. stefanielaine*

        I think you probably don’t realize what is involved in “work on overcoming that fear”

        1) Research phobia-specializing therapists in your insurance network
        2) Take time off work to meet with therapists (most people have to try a few)
        3) Take time off work to go to therapy appointments
        4) Expend mental energy at therapy, which leaves you with less mental energy for family/friends/work
        5) Pay for therapy (usually expensive, potentially not covered)

        This is a lot to do so someone can tolerate being close to a dog at work.

        1. Snark*

          I realize all of that. But at this point, what else is it? Carol refused to switch desks. She refused to acknowledge the problem. Yet she continues to react visibly, which makes OP uncomfortable with her own disability accomodation and leaves her feeling obligated to manage Carol’s emotions, which I don’t regard as fair or reasonable. So Carol needs to either do that, or switch desks, or otherwise manage how she’s dealing with this, because it’s not really OP’s job.

          1. fposte*

            The OP can decide to stop managing Carol’s emotions. That’s going to be easier for her to choose to do than for Carol to keep her phobia from visibility. I think the OP is a really nice person, and I understand her inclination here, but I think it’s better for her and for Carol if she walks where she needs to walk and shrugs Carol’s reactions off.

            1. LBK*

              Right – if Carol isn’t actively asking the OP to change anything and Carol has rejected the OP’s attempts to be proactive about changes that might help her, then I don’t think there’s anything more for the OP to do except stop doing Carol’s emotional labor. Everyone actually seems fine with the situation, so I don’t know that anything needs to be fixed right now except for the OP not caring about fixing it anymore.

              1. Snark*

                I don’t disagree….but. I couldn’t just ignore someone half-fainting and sprinting the other way. Like I said above, that’s super intense.

                1. LBK*

                  I think part of the point of writing in/having this conversation is giving the OP permission to start ignoring even those more dramatic reactions that might be harder to brush off naturally.

            2. Snark*

              I’d agree if we were talking about, like, nervously glancing at the dog and kind of avoiding them in the hallway, or startling when catching sight of the dog unexpectedly. Running away and quasi-fainting is an intensity of reaction that is very hard for most people with functional senses of empathy to just shrug off.

              It’s kind of like the coworker the other day who burst into dramatic sobbing when criticized. It’s possible to ignore and overlook a coworker who gets a red face and leaky eyes when angry or really stressed; it’s impossible to ignore someone being weepy and emotional for hours over a courier signature. Same distinction here.

              1. fposte*

                I absolutely think it would be better if Carol’s phobia improved, and if Carol were writing in I’d encourage movement toward that. But I think the only viable option in the mean time is for the OP to work on shrugging it off, and I think it’s easier to learn that than it is to overcome a phobia. She really can’t insist that Carol get treatment or that her treatment become more effective.

                1. Snark*

                  Phrased like that, and as reasonable as you are, I can’t disagree. But I have Feelings about someone being this visibly reactive to a disability accomodation, in a way that has the effect of treating the disabled person differently, and less favorably, than abled folks. It’s kind of an Unstoppable Force Meets Immovable Object thing, because I recognize that phobias are not resolved overnight, but Carol also can’t keep treating OP this way.

                2. fposte*

                  @Snark–I definitely don’t disagree with that, and I don’t like it either. But I think this is the real version of that hypothetical question we get asked sometimes: what if somebody had a disability that made proximity to dogs a problem? And I think this is what “working it out” might look like–the OP is uncomfortable with Carol’s reactive disability and Carol isn’t comfortable with the assistance the OP uses, but they’re both soldiering on. I’m reminded of the Israeli writer Amos Oz talking about any resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as being not the end of a Shakespearean comedy where everybody’s happy but being a Chekhovian comedy, where everybody’s smiling through gritted teeth. I think we got here a Chekhovian resolution.

                3. Tardigrade*

                  Snark, I fully agree with you that Carol should have moved desks (and probably still should move) and that it isn’t fair for OP to deal with Carol’s fear responses and that behavior ideally shouldn’t continue for the sakes of everyone involved. At the same time, Carol isn’t being afraid of the dog at OP, just the same way OP isn’t having a service dog at Carol.

                  It’s, uh, clearly a complicated situation.

                4. Snark*

                  @ Tardigrade – Yeah, complicated.

                  Carol IS kind of being afraid at OP3, though, in effect if not in intent – whether it’s a dog or a limb or a chair, a disabled person’s assistive device/animal is an extension of their person. She’s not pointing and laughing, but she is treating OP’s person differently than an abled person, which is why I feel like the onus is ultimately on her, but that doesn’t actually get us anywhere.

                5. KellyK*

                  Snark, would it help to view Carol’s phobia as possibly a disability as well? Because it may very well be. (I mean, none of us is qualified to diagnose via the interwebs, but it sounds pretty severe from the OP’s description.) This reads to me less like a situation where a disabled person is being treated badly because of their disability and more like a situation where people with different needs are having those needs come into conflict.

                  In that case, I don’t think it’s the responsibility of one disabled person to seek specific medical treatment geared toward making another disabled person feel more comfortable. It would be horribly ableist to say that OP3 just needs to find another accommodation, or take it upon herself to avoid Carol completely so that Carol can be comfortable. But if you turn that around, it’s also potentially ableist to say that someone with a phobia needs to find some better treatment to make the OP comfortable.

                  If, hypothetically, Carol’s dog phobia were an ADA qualifying issue and OP3 knew for a fact that Carol was doing everything she reasonably could to address it, she’d still be left in the same situation. She’d still be dealing with some very dramatic and unpleasant behaviors, but not be able to do much about them.

                  For that matter, Carol’s *boss* has standing to tell her that turning and running away when she sees OP3 coming is not acceptable behavior at work and can address it that way. (And if it was a disability issue, Carol could bring it up to her boss at that point.)

                6. Snark*

                  @KellyK: I see the logic of what you’re saying, but to be frank I just can’t get there. OP offered to move and Carol didn’t go for it, and also Carol hasn’t offered to move herself. If Carol isn’t willing to move or amenable to OP moving, then she’s declined the most obvious reasonable accomodation of her putative disability.

                7. Plague of frogs*

                  I’m having a lot of problems with this one. I keep thinking of a friend-of-a-friend who has a phobia of little people. So, OK, it’s a legit phobia, but I don’t think a little person should ever have to deal with it at work (or anywhere, for that matter).

                  For what it’s worth, I think the LW is dealing with this really well, and I feel bad for Carol, and perhaps Carol could be dealing with this better, but I’m not in her shoes so I don’t know. I do believe Carol should avoid LW desk–she *knows* there’s a dog there, so why go there at all?

      3. LBK*

        I don’t think most people anticipate seeing dogs in the workplace, ie somewhere they’re forced to be for 40 hours a week. It may have never been enough of an issue before to require getting over it since it’s generally easy to avoid extended encounters with dogs if you don’t own one.

      4. Viki*

        That’s unfair.

        People who are terrified of dogs (like myself) don’t always need help/work to overcome their phobia. I don’t care if the dog is the most tranquil, well-trained service dog. I got bit by a German Shepard when I was four and since then, I keep the furthest away from any dog. I don’t trust them. For me, and my life dogs are not an issue.

        The OP is doing as best as she can, and Carol is from what I can tell, is doing as best she can.

        People generally aren’t expecting to deal with their phobia at work. Carol and the OP are doing their best, and saying Carol needs to get over her phobia is unkind, unrealistic and not useful here as Carol is presumably not reading this.

        1. Snark*

          I actually quite disagree that Carol is doing the best she can. Reacting to a service dog to the point of visible, significant fear is not fair to someone who depends on that dog for basic life tasks. It places an implicit onus of emotional labor and responsibility on OP, to the point that she feels compelled to write to an advice blog about how to manage that fear. That’s not okay in my book. My point is not to give Carol advice but that, at some point, the onus is on her to manage her own reactions in a way that’s fair to OP – not on OP to manage them for her.

          And as someone who was also attacked by a dog when I was small and had significant fear of all dogs for quite a while afterward, I think irrational fears of everyday things are both changeable and worth working on. Your mileage may vary and you may agree to disagree, of course.

          1. fposte*

            We have no idea if Carol is doing the best she can or not. However, the fact that she’s having this reaction doesn’t prove she isn’t doing the best she can–you’re talking as if her going to treatment would mean she’d be fixed by now, and that’s simply not true. (Again, setting aside the fact that not everybody has the money or the time to get treatment in the first place.)

            And just as it’s on Carol to manage her fear, it’s on the OP to manage her own *reaction* to that fear; it’s not Carol’s obligation to make sure the OP doesn’t leap to emotional management.

            1. Snark*

              Carol placed herself in a Catch-22 – she declined to move. I don’t expect her to be insta-fixed, but if she’s not going to move, and she’s not going to react appropriately to the dog, that’s putting a lot on OP to just ignore.

              1. fposte*

                The OP has said she doesn’t think moving would help anyway, since the reactions are so frequently when they’re not at their desks.

                If there’s a whole nother floor or building that Carol could have moved to, that’s another matter, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case.

              2. Lissa*

                I’m torn about this. I was one of those who had a “huh” reaction to Stellaaaa’s original post because nothing in the OP indicated she blamed Carol in any way so it seemed like jumping to an unnecessary defense.

                I think the only thing, though, that Carol has done “wrong” is refuse to move, which could’ve been because she thought she’d get better with exposure and isn’t, maybe, or lots of other reasons. I don’t think she has more of an obligation to change/get over her fear of dogs just because she has a coworker with a service dog. I understand there’s room to disagree there but – I just can’t get there myself.

                That said, I think at this point that it might be worth figuring out if there’s a way to change the seating arrangements, because what’s going on now doesn’t seem to be good for the OP or Carol…

            1. tangerineRose*

              Running from dog isn’t a good idea though, and the co-worker might run into problems with other dogs if she regularly does this. The OP’s dog must be very well trained to deal with this.

              Dogs are fast, at least compared to humans, and when someone or something runs from a dog, that usually activates the dog’s hunting instincts.

              Never run from a dog if you can help it. If you don’t know a dog well, don’t run when you’re around the dog (the dog might misinterpret this). Don’t turn your back when you’re close to a dog you don’t know (I was bitten once by a dog when I did this).

              There are a lot of great, sweet dogs out there, and I love dogs, but I am cautious around dogs I don’t know.

            2. Plague of frogs*

              That’s not really the point. There would be nothing irrational about me, a woman, being afraid of men.

    7. TootsNYC*

      I agree that this comment misconstrues the OP’s concerns.

      The OP isn’t offended, and she doesn’t want to “make” Carol like dogs.
      The OP is focused on how to ACCOMMODATE Carol’s fear of the dog. The OP is upset ON CAROL’S BEHALF that Carol is as frightened in the hallway, and the OP wants to do any reasonable thing that will make Carol less frightened.

      Our OP is willing to make even more accommodations than she has already made.

      I don’t think our OP deserves this scolding, and I encourage you to read that letter again without this knee-jerk filter.

  18. DogTrainerGuy*

    For LW #3, I’d give it some time with Carol and bringing in your service dog. I would recommend not doing anything, except to give her some space whenever possible in narrow areas (like you’ve mentioned).

    I don’t know the depth of Carol’s fear. However, I have seen instances where people who aren’t expected to interact or “get over it” do become more comfortable over time with the presence of the service dog. I’ve trained service dogs both for a non-profit org and also working with private owner-trained dogs. The best “remedy” for the situation of someone who is afraid is letting them experience that your dog is trained, unobtrusive, and need not be part of their work day. Typically, this only comes with time – from the realization that your dog won’t do anything, and that they won’t be forced to engage with the dog.

    1. Jerry Vandesic*

      Time might help, but it also might not. I worked in a dog friendly office, and worked with someone with a dog phobia. Another teammate would bring in their dog, and the colleague with the phobia was often visibly afraid. She tried to give it some time, but it didn’t help. To accommodate the disability, the company offered the teammate with the dog two options: either stop bringing in their dog, or move a different department. He chose to move to a different department.

      1. DogTrainerGuy*

        That may be so. It may be the case here too. However, service dogs in the workplace behave differently from even well-behaved pet dogs brought into dog-friendly workplaces. They are not remotely comparable.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          But it might not be about the behavior of the dog, simply their presence. A phobia of well-behaved dogs (service or not) is still a disability.

  19. Espeon*

    OP4: Ugh, cheap toilet paper is such false economy! It really says a lot about a person/manager when they buy cheap tp…

    I’d just bring my own roll, and use the open office plan to my advantage; in a silent protest, I would stride toward the bathroom, quality tp in hand, and trust that it would inspire others to do the same. You would then have your allies for a confident group pushback. You won’t be the only one annoyed by this – but someone must be the first to protest! Display your toilet rolls on your desks! Ham it up, ruin the look of the office with toilet rolls everywhere.

    Alternatively, for a more underhand approach, you could all agree to bring your own tp in secret (keep it hidden), and just get rid of a whole roll (or half a roll or whatever) every single time you use the bathroom, so the company ends up spending FAR more on the cheap stuff than they ever did on the good stuff. It seems like ‘money talks’ with this manager, so exploding their mind like this might be the way to go.

    Fare thee well, intrepid bathroom warrior.

    1. AlwhoisthatAl*

      Totally agree, just found on Google that they do gold toilet paper at £150 a roll – Tempting to have on display on your desk ! Seriously I would keep some good stuff on my desk and if you ever have visitors, hand them the roll.
      Perhaps even wear the paper Bandolier style like Chewbacca as you head loo-wards.

    2. KHB*

      I was thinking the same thing, although I’m less shy about these things than some people are.

      I think this is a good application of the principle of “let it be awkward, because you’re not the one causing the awkwardness – they are.” You’re not the “crazy toilet paper lady” – they’re the office that skimps so much on supplies that employees have to bring toilet paper from home just to make it through the day. You don’t have to be embarrassed or ashamed, because you haven’t done anything to be embarrassed or ashamed of – but they have.

    3. Not Australian*

      I’m not sure I’d be restrained enough for a silent protest, personally. I’d be all “Just taking my own paper in with me, can’t stand the rubbish the office provides!”

      I guess the only real excuse for not having decent paper in the bathroom would be if the plumbing was really ancient or you were in an ecologically-sensitive area, but it doesn’t sound as if either is the case with the OP.

    4. Blue Cupcake*

      Yeah. Everyone is talking about discretion but I would carry quality TP to the loo with no shame. I bet if others see one person do it, they’ll find the courage to do it themselves.

    5. TootsNYC*

      just get rid of a whole roll (or half a roll or whatever) every single time you use the bathroom, so the company ends up spending FAR more on the cheap stuff than they ever did on the good stuff.

      Ha!
      This is very subversive.

      (My husband, as a teen, went on a campaign of stealing all the full-size or nearly full-size pieces of chalk at his school, with (he says now as an adult) the intent of bringing the school to its knees. He did it for at least 2 years, and had to get really crafty to keep it up, bcs they started hiding the chalk more carefully. After he graduated, he took the shoebox of chalk out of the bottom of his closet and plonked it on the desk in the school office.)

    6. Half-Caf Latte*

      This was my first thought. I’d stroll to the bathroom, roll in hand, without shame.

      I have always been more at ease with bodily functions than most people, though.

  20. Elizabeth H.*

    Re letter #1, I have never had a child but I actually don’t mind graphic discussions of childbirth! Even over lunch! (I’m pretty unsqueamish) However, I’m saying this as context for the fact that OP is totally within her rights to ask not to talk about medical stuff in vivid detail at lunch, as plenty of people find medical related anything unnerving/appetite killing.

    Re. letter number 4, my experience is that toilet paper preference is very subjective. I like cheap toilet paper and hate the soft paper. I also was kind of confused by the new CEO having a more financial background. It just sounds like he is more of a fan on cheaping out on personnel satisfaction, I’m not sure what his background has to do with it.

    1. Birch*

      Same on both accounts. Re: lunch conversation, I think it’s always OK to point out that the topic is too personal for work, but if you get push back, you gotta deal with your own reaction to it. Same goes for talking about religion, politics, death, money, etc.

      I also prefer cheap TP–I read somewhere that the super fluffy kind isn’t actually good for you as it shreds easily and sticks to the skin. I’m just amazed that any workplace has “good” TP–I’ve only ever had that giant roll of 1-ply locked up in the plastic dispenser, public restroom style! I think it’s cultural, too–there definitely isn’t a huge market for super fluffy TP where I live compared to the US. IMO the whole TP debate misses the point anyway. Bidets FTW!

    2. 30ish*

      Yeah, the problem is not so much the topic of childbirth as such but the fact that OP is being made uncomfortable.

    3. The Other Dawn*

      Agree on the TP. Despise Charmin and love Scott.

      As for the childbirth discussion, I wouldn’t want to listen to it. It’s actually not the graphic nature of it, but more that I don’t have kids and never want them, so it would be really boring for me to listen to everyday. I’d probably try to change the subject a few times and if it didn’t work, I’d just pull back from the group.

    4. One of the Annes*

      Totally agree about the soft toilet paper. However, the skimping on ply is an issue. One-ply is never good.

  21. alexa, set timer for ten minutes*

    OP2, you have my sympathy. It would be difficult for me to do anything but tell the serial referrer to stay in his lane, full stop.

    You do need to discuss this with his manager – and yours, I think. It’s important that he understand that he cannot contact people on behalf of the company to discuss potential job openings (!!!) for the reasons Alison mentions – it’s also potentially a liability issue for the company. He could be making wild misrepresentations of one variety or another. I think it’s unlikely he is doing something legally problematic, but if you will humor me, a story:

    I once had someone who could not have *possibly* been authorized to contact candidates tell me they needed to increase the number of [protected class] type of people at their company and that they were excited about my skills. My eyebrows were nearly permanently affixed to my hairline after I heard that. I’m still trying to restore them to their original upright position.

    Ideally his manager (or someone above him in the org) needs to explain that referrals are really intended to be people whose work product he is familiar with – and that he thinks it is of the quality that would work in your company (and that the person would also be a culture fit).

    I have reservations about his judgment based on your letter but I do think once the above convo occurs that you should try to give him the benefit of the doubt for a little while (sometimes it takes awhile for feedback to stick), unless there is no change in his referral rate or the quality of the candidates being referred.

    I’m wondering if there is some serious financial problem brewing for him that is prompting this behavior, or if he is unhappy with his compensation and this is how that’s manifesting, etc.

    1. Dan*

      Yeah, I think the emphasis of the letter is misplaced — the guy can’t be abusing the referral program if he’s never getting any referrals. (I thought I’d be reading a letter about a guy who was getting ten referral bonuses in a year or something, to which I would have said, “lucky dog”.)

      What he is doing is causing all kinds of other problems that need to be quashed. This isn’t about “refer less people, or only refer those you know are qualified”… this is about giving off the impression that the guy represents the company in a hiring role, when he does not. *That* is the behavior that needs to be addressed.

    1. MsSolo*

      But bin them, don’t flush them! They don’t degrade and cause massive issues for sewerage systems. They’re up there with microbeads for “did anyone actually think about whether our plumbing can deal with these? no? oh well, let’s label them like they did!”

  23. MommyMD*

    I feel bad for the coworker afraid of the dog and now probably dreading every day at work. I’d tell my manager I want to move to a new desk and make sure there’s no negativity towards coworker. They should accommodate her as well and it’s not on her to warm up to the dog.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        OP mentioned up-thread that she asked Carol if OP should move her desk and Carol said it wasn’t necessary. I thought the same thing, that HR took it upon themselves to answer for Carol.

    2. Nonnon*

      OP3 moving to a further-away desk may actually help Carol a little. I have a moth phobia, but I can handle a moth at the other end of the room much better than a moth flying around my head. (That was actually part of how I ‘trained’ myself to be more calm around moths and butterflies – although I’m still not going into the butterfly house.)

      Carol will probably never be a dog-lover, but it’s a lot easier to handle anxieties/fears if you’re not in a constant state of ‘!!!’

  24. Akcipitrokulo*

    OP4…ymmv, but I’d quite happily display my personal loo roll to and from toilet to let people know it was necessary…

    Quick question – do clients have to use it too? Might be a way into discussion.

    But this kind of penny pinching does not pay off long term.

    1. AlwhoisthatAl*

      Absolutely ! March proudly down the corridor with your luxury loo roll on show OP, have your co-workers sigh in envy as you display your triple layered, quilted, aloe vera containing perforated squares of bliss

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        Make it the highpoint of the day; people on the phones to customers look longingly at the clock, waiting for the break in the monotony that is the luxury toilet paper parade.

      2. tangerineRose*

        You might want to keep your TP locked up if you’re open about it – I wouldn’t be surprised if others want to “borrow” it.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Ooh, good point. If clients have to use it, one quick, “OMG, the client noticed that we switched to Sandpaper Brand!” in the right ear might solve the problem.

  25. Ayla*

    I once worked somewhere where we had this exact topic come up. I don’t know who brought it up but one day we had an all staff email about the one ply toilet paper and how they wanted our input on it so they could talk to the building owners.

    I still remember the toilet paper was closer to paper than tissues. You could write on it.

    I used to bring tissues in with me because of that toilet paper.

  26. AlwhoisthatAl*

    About the toilet paper, I wish I could remember where I had read this, it was an article about an auditor of some kind who checked out companies for their financial stability. One of the main items she would check on a visit were the toilets – if they had cheap toilet paper, bar soap and no sanitary items for the ladies it was a red flag (oops no bad pun intended there) as the firm was obviously cost cutting to the max.

    1. Phoenix Programmer*

      I have never worked for an office that provided women’s sanitation products and I have worked for some of the most profitable banks in the US. Is that a cultural thing? Also nowhere I have worked has given out facial tissue either. Just TP.

      1. hermit crab*

        We’ve always had tissues, but not feminine hygiene stuff. Though our current building provides hand lotion – the really nice Aveeno kind! – which is pretty great.

        Also, our office bathrooms are stocked/maintained by building management – the bathrooms are outside of our suite, in the elevator lobby, so they’re not only “ours.” I’m sure that, as tenants, we could push back on building management decisions if necessary but it’d be odd to judge us based on something that was mostly out of our control.

      2. Not a Real Giraffe*

        My last job (a Fortune 500 firm) provided free tampons/pads in the ladies’ room and it was my favorite thing EVER.

        1. Marillenbaum*

          They have them in the bathrooms on campus, which is just so smart–in both the women’s and the gender-neutral restrooms (I have no idea about the men’s, but that’s just because I’ve never been in there).

        2. BadPlanning*

          My company provides them too. I work in a male dominated area so when I interviewed and saw those items provided in the bathroom, it definitely was check in the “good” column for me.

          At one point in budget cutting similar to awful TP, they put up signs that they were going to discontinue the pads/tampons. Then the sign disappeared. I heard through the grapevine that they were not going to put in paid machines and a woman in upper management said, “No way, the items stay.”

          1. Plague of frogs*

            My first job had them, and it was a big point in the company’s favor when I saw them while interviewing. Not because I use them–I prefer to bring my own–but because I work in a 90% male industry and it was nice to see consideration shown for women.

      3. Akcipitrokulo*

        We have a cupboard near HR (that isn’t in plain view) where they keep various stuff including tampons and sanitary towels. It’s not meant to be supplying everyone, but there as an emergency – and no-one monitors who’s using it. It just gets refilled if supply gets low.

        It is the first company I’ve worked for that does that, and it is very awesome imo.

      4. Rusty Shackelford*

        I’ve never worked at, or visited, an office that provided them. I have been to two or three restaurants (in my entire life) that did.

      5. Emi.*

        I provided them at my wedding reception. I have never expected them at work, and honestly I think it’s a little weird.

        1. Close Bracket*

          Why is it weird? There is really no fundamental difference between tampons/pads and toilet paper. They are all for absorbing and removing waste that exits the body.

          1. Emi.*

            I mean, it’s not standard in any environment that I’ve ever been in, so it strikes me as unusual. But it’s also that they come in a much wider variety than toilet paper and many women have much stricter preferences than people do about toilet paper, so it’s less generally useful.

            1. Al Lo*

              To me, any place that provides them has mostly been for emergency situations, when I care(d — I have an IUD that means I haven’t had a period in 7 years) way less about what it was than I did about having something — anything — available. It’s not about meeting my preferences for my everyday needs.

            2. a different Vicki*

              I have preferences, yes: but there are a lot of pads, in particular, that I would class as not what I prefer, but much better than bleeding on my clothes or trying to improvise something from paper towels. I might use one of those if I had my period unexpectedly and thus had no supplies handy; it will do until I can get to the drugstore (even if that takes five minutes rather than hours, it’s five minutes when I’ll be happier to have the sanitary napkin in place).

      6. AKchic*

        I have never worked for a company that provided them either.

        I personally have brought a three-drawer Rubbermaid stand and donated a multipack of tampons, liners and a variety pack of pads for visitors at my last job because we’d have guests during conferences/training sessions who would run out or otherwise need this necessity and there would be none. It was an inconvenience and an embarrassing situation for these women. I chose to alleviate that situation, and it also allowed our female staff to toss in a few personal emergency supplies in the communal bathroom “just in case”. We labeled one drawer “Communal/For All” and then the rest had small containers/baggies with each staffer’s name on it for their personal supplies within the drawer, and the bottom drawer had extra TP, paper towels and soap.

    2. aNon*

      I worked at a casino and they had them in the single stall restrooms for employees. Such a great benefit on those days I was less than prepared.

  27. Leslie*

    About childbirth talk: the letter writer says that her colleagues are sharing childbirth horror stories and there are pregnant women in her office. I just want to step in here and say that telling scary stories about childbirth to a pregnant woman is not a good idea. There is a great deal of uncertainty around an impending birth and many pregnant women are afraid of what might go wrong. Telling horror stories to a pregnant woman can make her more anxious than she already is. My rule of thumb is to always talk about the positive around pregnant women. Something along the lines of “I gave birth at that hospital and it was a wonderful experience. I loved the nurses there” etc. Those are perfectly appropriate things to say in almost any context.

    1. dragonzflame*

      My midwife told me to ignore the horror stories and pointed out that the vast majority of births are so boring nobody wants to tell/hear about them because they just don’t make good stories. Also, people with the horror stories often feel the need to get it out by talking about it a lot so you’ll naturally hear more of them.

      And indeed, I, too, ended up with one of those desperately boring stories. But I’ve never really found pregnancy and childbirth a scintillating topic of conversation anyway.

    2. Thlayli*

      Some people want to hear the horror stories. Personally I want to know as much as possible. I watched every episode of one born every minute before I had my eldest, and listened to every story I could. That knowledge was invaluable to me when my baby’s heart rate was dropping and they had to attach a monitor. If I had only heard the “boring” stories I would have been terrified. But because I knew it all I knew it was not time to worry yet but it was time to get a move on and prepare for maybe needing assistance.

      We definitely don’t want to go back to the bad old days when women didn’t know what to expect and were terrified by the unexpected.

      Knowing is definitely better, for most people.

      That said, I know women pregnant women who didn’t want to know anything at all in advance. Horses for courses.

      1. Julia*

        I feel like that should be up to the woman giving birth. If she wants to know, tell her. If not, don’t. Or maybe she wants to know about the possible risks without having to hear every detail.

        1. Thlayli*

          In this case OP says that her colleagues all seem to enjoy it.

          I do know a few women who didn’t do any research and didn’t want to know anything before hand. While that is totally their right, I would point out that one of them had infected stitches for months and didn’t tell her doctor or anyone else because she thought it was normal. She wanted to have a section on her second because she assumed that happened to everyone! She was surprised when we all told her that no, that it is definitely not normal to still have pain for months afterwards.

          So I stand by my belief that the more you know, the better!

    3. Susie Q*

      I also think that it is the pregnant women’s right to speak up for themselves if they don’t want to hear anything not OPs. If OP speaks to her coworkers about not wanting to hear about childbirth, then she should focus on her own discomfort and not speak for anyone else.

      As someone trying to get pregnant, I’d rather hear the whole truth instead of just positives. Not everyone becomes overly anxious or worrisome.

    4. Shop Girl*

      I agree. I had ridiculously easy pregnancies and births. Just the way I am. I did nothing to cause it. People used to send expectant mothers to me to tell my stories.
      Birth stories are ubiquitous and traditionally how women learned and prepared for childbirth. I think it is imbedded in us.
      That being said in the modern workplace we should be considerate to the person who can’t have children.

      1. Lena*

        No, it isn’t embedded in us and many of us choose not to have children. This should be a topic that is assumed to be of interest to anyone female.

    5. Guacamole Bob*

      There’s also the fact that for some women who haven’t had ideal births, taking about it isn’t fun. I had a very stressful pregnancy with my twins, a difficult birth, and some complications for one of the babies that made the first couple of months of an already hard time (infant twins are no joke even in the best of circumstances) even harder. I blame my postpartum depression in part on those circumstances, and talking about it, especially with people I don’t know well or with people who had easy births and happy maternity leaves, can still bring up a lot of emotional crap that I don’t really want to deal with in the workplace on a regular basis.

      I wonder if all the women in OP’s office are really happy about participating in this daily conversation, or whether some of them are gritting their teeth and going along with it out of some sense of social obligation.

    6. Roz*

      I don’t necessarily disagree about “horror stories,” but some of the things that the OP described are pretty routine. I think birth stories for many women are our “OMG you will never believe what happened to me” type of crazy story. Despite the fact that humans have been giving birth since the beginning of time, I don’t think society (and especially not depictions of birth in movies and TV) really prepares you for what it actually feels like. And when it’s over, it’s likely to be one of the most unexpected and surprising experiences the mom has ever had. So while it’s really not very nice to talk about over lunch, I think the place these women are coming from is “this is a crazy story! you never hear about it!” and not “we love talking about gross stuff!”.

    7. Dee-Nice*

      I had a perfectly normal labor and was still emotionally traumatized by it. It was the single worst experience of my life. I don’t approve of telling people stories with the intent to scare them, but when people ask me about my labor I tell them the truth. I don’t think it helps anyone to downplay how dramatically it effects your body both during the birth and after, during the recovery process, which nearly NO ONE had ever talked to me about.

      I find it cathartic to discuss these topics with other women who have given birth. HOWEVER, I also think it’s perfectly reasonable to not to want to talk about it at work and if I were in the position of OP’s coworkers, I would apologize and cut out the chat.

    8. Rae*

      I have always wondered why people only tell sunshine and roses stories when someone DOESN’T have children, but the instant someone is expecting they bring out the horror stories.

      1. Mike C.*

        I’ve noticed this too. Random people always tried to blow smoke up my backside when they found out I wasn’t interested in having kids, but my friends with kids always tell it to my straight.

  29. AdAgencyChick*

    OP2, is your company’s referral bonus equally generous if the employee has worked with the person before as it is if the candidate is a friend or relative outside of work? Most places I’ve worked at have a huge differential between the two — as in, if you are referring a friend, the bonus is only 10-20% of what it would be if you have worked with the person before and can provide firsthand info on what she’s like in the workplace.

    At the time I found the differential annoying — why should someone who refers a great candidate get paid so little just because they haven’t worked together? (Especially since an outside recruiter would get paid many, many times that amount to bring the same person in.) But now I see that system is designed to prevent situations like yours.

  30. Rebecca*

    #3 – I think it’s time that either you or Carol move to another desk. Perhaps HR could find a coworker who likes dogs, or at least isn’t so apprehensive. Me, I’d love to sit next to you and your service dog :) I imagine this has to be stressful for Carol, too.

    #4 – I work in a smaller office, and our bathrooms have cabinets for storage. Many of us store feminine hygiene products in them, labeled with a post it note or just initials written on the container so we don’t have to take items with us each time. Perhaps you could bring toilet paper from home, put it in a cabinet or storage area in your bathroom, label it, and just grab it when you go in?

    For reference, we buy our own post it notes in my office because management feels they are a waste of money. No one really wants to rock the boat and demand something so small, so we just get then on sale, in bulk, at a big box store and split the cost.

    1. Bea*

      They are a waste but even my cheapest boss(they’re all notoriously delightfully thrifty) used them, so that’s a shocking one to me!

      I chop up old documents that are otherwise trash to scribble notes on, a hold over from my original OG cheap boss.

  31. ChaoticGood*

    OP3 –
    Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability?
    What work or task has the dog been trained to perform?

    These are questions that are legal to ask, and in order to me to formulate an opinion I’d need to hear the answers.

    Also… You wrote your dog is “very quiet and doesn’t make a fuss”. I know *you* believe that, and I’m sure your dog is very nice. But… if a co-worker has to hug the walls when your giant animal approaches them, then, let’s compassionately suggest that there’s not a clear consensus on whether your dog doesn’t make a fuss. I come down pretty solidly on the side that your dog is, in fact, doing exactly that.

    1. Kms1025*

      I’m sorry. What are you suggesting here? I thought we took the letter writers at their word on this site. Presumably her employer has “proof” of her disability and need for a service dog. I don’t think it helps address the issue by questioning that???

      1. ChaoticGood*

        Have you never had someone take advantage of the common good before, and watched as the people who were tasked with gatekeeping that behavior looked the other way to avoid getting the company into trouble?

        It’s OK to question the premise of a letter writer. It’s been done many times.

        1. FRC*

          You’re assuming the letter writer doesn’t need a service dog based on… what? The fact that a small number of people pretend their dog is a service dog? There’s absolutely no evidence that the dog is 1) barking 2) approaching people 3) being aggressive 4) doing anything other than accompanying a disabled person that requires its help. There’s nothing in the letter at all that would indicate that the letter writer is faking except the existence of a person scared of all dogs, but your assumption seems to be “if anyone finds this person’s ADA accommodations inconvenient, those accommodations must not be necessary.” Automatically looking at someone with a disability using assistive equipment or a service dog and assuming they’re faking their disability until they’ve proven themselves adequately disabled for your standards is a really messed-up attitude to have.

          1. tangerineRose*

            Plus, the co-worker is running from the dog, and it sounds like the dog is just ignoring her – that’s a well trained dog!

        2. fposte*

          In the very commenting guidelines linked above your comment box: “Give letter-writers and fellow commenters the benefit of the doubt.”

        3. Pollygrammer*

          You’re basically saying “but what if you’re lying?” And that is immensely unproductive, not to mention rude.

        4. Observer*

          You’ve gone way beyond that. AND ignoring the evidence, as well.

          Unless the OP made the whole story up, it’s clear that HR actually did its homework to see whether this is actually a service animal, and to see what accommodations others need. Furthermore, the make it clear that the OP actually has a need for their dog to not make a fuss – they clearly state that they need their service dog to be focused only on them NOT engaging with other people or doing anything else. And the extremeness of Carol’s reaction indicates that this actually is about her fear rather than the OP’s dog.

          That’s not to say that Carol is a terribly person who is manufacturing a problem. But, it is to say that the problem is not that the OP is lying about the situation.

    2. MissingArizona*

      65 lbs is not a giant dog, and the coworker isn’t hugging walls when crossing paths. The OP is trying to figure out how to be sensitive to another person’s discomfort while trying to navigate having a service dog at work. And the “legal questions ” you insist on, were already taken care of with hr and management at the OP’s company, so it doesn’t matter if you deem the answers good enough to give an opinion. Yes, a living being “makes a fuss”, all living beings make a fuss, but as fellow living beings we all have to coexist with each other, which is what OP is trying to do because they want their coworker comfortable.

    3. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      You’re not this person’s coworker, or someone working in a shop or similar that the OP visits. Therefore you have absolutely no reason to ask “the legal questions” in such a tone.

      1. Rachel M*

        Yea, if anyone was wondering why disabled peoples often don’t disclose a disability if it’s not absolutely necessary, here’s why. In general, unless necessary, it’s best not to ask for “proof” that someone is disabled. Ableism is so real. I’m not sure why people think there are a ton of able-bodied people in the world asking to be discriminated against.

        1. AngelicGamer aka that visually impaired peep*

          Ableism is very real. I was bullied to the point where I didn’t want to use my cane and seriously hurt myself trying to fit in during high school (fell down the stairs). People need to stop making those of us who are disabled feel like we need to triple check if our own disability passes able people’s sniff test. Including those who give me the side eye for having a red tipped cane while also reading my phone or using my laptop. Get the hell over yourselves and either ask me or go the f away.

          1. Sylvan*

            I’m so sorry that happened to you. I have hurt myself by avoiding wheelchairs, crutches, and leg braces when I needed them.

            People who are dealing with a disability shouldn’t have to manage the feelings of everyone around them every time they leave home. I appreciate OP’s sensitivity towards Carol, but the current thing where Carol can’t deal with OP but nobody does anything about it – like moving them away from each other – isn’t great.

            1. EJane*

              I have an invisible disability–a panic disorder–and ableism is so ingrained in society that it took me SIX. YEARS. to realize that part of the reason I was doubting myself and had such a massive issue with being labeled as “disabled” was subconscious ableism. I’d internalized the idea that if I just worked harder, I wouldn’t be sick anymore. Still working on getting over it.

    6. MakesThings*

      WTF?
      I’m pretty sure the letter writer explained that management cleared the dog. No one is required to explain their disability to you- do you ask every person who walks with a cane to explain what exactly the cane does for them before you decide that their disability is valid? Are you a doctor? It’s absolutely not your place to ask these questions, random commenter on a website.

    7. Snark*

      And I come down pretty solidly on the side that you’re very far off base and straying further every time you post.

    8. Apollo Warbucks*

      The dog could be extremely well behaved and still make the owners co-worker uncomfortable if they have a general fear of dogs, and as for if the dog is truly necessary for the OP lets take it at face value the company is accommodating the presence of the dog because they have already established it is necessary.

    9. MakesThings*

      Also, dude. Dude. Your username, it does not suit. Rules lawyering a disability accommodation is not usually characteristic of chaotic good alignment.

      3. Had Matter's Pea Tarty*

        Hear hear from a Chaotic Good Elf Wizard.

        I like how they seem assume that they’re the first to ask all these questions/raised the issue of behaviour and not, say, OP’s employers, management, and the people who trained the service dog in the first place…

        1. MakesThings*

          Haha, yeah. This unbelievable level of entitlement and self-importance, where does it come from?

    11. OP #3*

      You seem nice.

      Yes, I am disabled and my dog is a service dog trained to assist me. I don’t exactly feel comfortable sharing the details since I don’t get the impression that you are asking in good faith. I don’t think my dog would qualify as “giant” but then I think of giant dogs as pony-sized Mastiffs and Newfoundlands, which usually weigh 2-3x as much as my dog.

      The things that have caused a fearful reaction from Carol have been: my dog heeling close to my hip (as in, only a couple of inches away from my leg), and my dog lying down close to me as I was talking with another coworker. She has not barked, growled, jumped, or lunged at Carol.

      Also, if my employer requiring proof of training for my dog and weekly check ins with my supervisor and HR counts as “looking the other way”, I’d be curious as to what counts as adequate supervision in your view.

      1. MakesThings*

        So glad to hear from you, OP3.
        I was just thinking about how awful it must be to encounter self-righteous glass bowls such as this commenter, and having to engage with such people about your disability on a regular basis.
        Why do some people believe that anybody owes them a detailed explanation before they decide to believe in someone’s need?

      3. Justme, The OG*

        I grew up with a Sheepdog and a St. Bernard. Your dog is child sized, and therefore “not large” to my estimation.

        Also, you’re awesome.

      5. Health Insurance Nerd*

        You responded to that comment way more politely and diplomatically than I would/could have. I’m so sorry you have to deal with people like this OP!

        1. OP #3*

          I’m used to it. 99% of people are pretty chill, but the 1% that aren’t can be pretty annoying/scary. I’ve had people scream at my dog, follow me around demanding I tell them everything they want to know about my dog, and grab her. Luckily she’s awesome and doesn’t really react to any of the nonsense.

          When I lay it all out like that, it sounds like it’s not worth it. But the alternative to having her around includes very unpleasant things like medications that have things like suicidal ideation as side effects, so…

          Anyway, she helps me a lot. And I just want to make sure my coworkers are comfortable around her.

          1. Snark*

            There’s a limit to how much emotional labor you need to do on their behalf, though. At some point, Carol needs to deal, or needs to move. It’s nice of you to be aware of her fear, but you’re not obligated to manage it.

          3. blackcat*

            “Luckily she’s awesome and doesn’t really react to any of the nonsense.”

            And that is the mark of a true service animal. Service animals are trained to not react to that type of stuff!

            1. OP #3*

              Well, she did bark when she was grabbed. But she was grabbed around the neck from behind by a drunk/super hungover guy. Scared the crap out of both of us, and I yelled at the guy to get his hands off my dog.

              Ah, the joys of the early morning train.

              1. tangerineRose*

                Your dog sounds amazing! And barking when grabbed by a drunk stranger – that sounds like a good thing to do.

          4. Snark*

            I got right up in a dude’s face for harassing a working service dog. I am so very not there for that bullshit.

          5. Sylvan*

            OP, I really admire your compassion for your coworkers. However, you can’t be their therapist. You were right to raise the possibility of moving away from Carol and I hope that it happens so you don’t have to keep dealing with this all day, every day.

      7. Observer*

        I responded before I saw this. As annoying as this level of oversight must be to you, I give your company credit for covering all of its bases. As long as they are not nitpicking stupidities, it’s probably a good thing for you as well, ultimately.

        But at this point, it’s clear that you have done pretty much everything you can. Yes, asking Carol if there is anything you could do to make things easier would be nice. But really, it’s on her to figure out what needs to happen and how to make it happen.

        And kudos to you for responding so calmly and professionally to such a ridiculous challenge.

    12. Katie*

      “These are questions that are legal to ask, and in order to me to formulate an opinion I’d need to hear the answers. ” I thought pretty much any question is legal to ask on a blog website :) Why do you feel the need to say your question is specifically not illegal? :)

    13. Phoenix Programmer*

      Legally I have the right to ask if you are the product of your father’s drunken night in the barnyard. That doesn’t make it a polite inquiry nor obligate you to answer.

      1. MissingArizona*

        Some people like to stir the pot and hide behind being “technically correct”, these people are generally annoying.

      2. Laura H*

        I’m so glad I’m not eating or drinking anything right now because I laughed waaay harder than I should have.

        One can ask any questionsthey like, but should realize that some are questionable to ask, and be able to refrain accordingly.

    14. KellyK*

      But… if a co-worker has to hug the walls when your giant animal approaches them, then, let’s compassionately suggest that there’s not a clear consensus on whether your dog doesn’t make a fuss. I come down pretty solidly on the side that your dog is, in fact, doing exactly that.

      There’s absolutely no evidence of that. People who have dog phobias can be scared of quiet, polite dogs, even sleeping dogs. The OP actually said above that Carol has been nervous around her dog even when the dog was lying down.

      You seem to be creating a situation where the OP is potentially faking and the dog is disruptive out of whole cloth.

      1. Justme, The OG*

        I hug the walls when people pass me. Does that mean they’re making a fuss? Or just that I get out of the way when people pass?

      2. Dust Bunny*

        I grew up on a block with not one but *four* unsafe dogs and was absolutely terrified of dogs in general until I was an older child (upper elementary age). (I’m still cautious with dogs but over it enough to be functional. I even worked for a veterinarian for a few years).

        No, the dog doesn’t have to do anything. If somebody is phobic, they can be afraid of a dog that is asleep in a corner.

        HR should have moved Carol to a different area, though.

    16. Akcipitrokulo*

      I believe that the employer could ask that – and I’m certain has. I’m not sure random co-workers can – that seems to tend towards harassment to me (NAL).

      In any event, it’s bloody rude. HR have done the necessary due process.

      1. Justme, The OG*

        IANAL but I’m going to paraphrase the employment law textbook on my desk: Employer can, once a disability and accommodations are brought up by the employee. Random co-workers really cannot.

        And yes, totally rude.

        1. fposte*

          That’s a useful differentiation there. If I found out a staffer had taken it upon herself to quiz a co-worker on her disability, the fact that the questions would be legally permissible if she were a shopkeeper wouldn’t be enough to get her out of discipline in a situation where she’s not.

    17. Tuxedo Cat*

      I had a friend in college who literally pushed me to the ground to escape a puppy that was calmly being held by someone a good 30+ feet away.

      Some people have fears that they display even if it doesn’t make sense to most people. I know people who are afraid of my 8-lb geriatric cat when she’s asleep.

      3. AKchic*

        my 2nd ex-husband’s girlfriend is also scared of cats. Our 6 pound black cat she can tolerate if it’s across the room. The 16 pounder? Nope. If she so much as hears Foxy purr in the same room, she starts hyperventilating. She was attacked as a little kid.
        Luckily, my cats aren’t big on new people and will only give a quick glance of “oh, you’re here? Fine, I’m going to go eat in the other room” and ignore her. And luckily she lives across country.

    18. AngelicGamer aka that visually impaired peep*

      Nope. Unless they’re NOT wearing a vest, you’re not allowed to ask that. You can be sued under ADA law and, if you asked me in a work situation, I would take you to HR so fast your head would spin. I’ve had enough of people wondering if an accommodation is needed and you should go Google what you’re allowed and not allowed to ask under ADA law.

      1. fposte*

        I don’t think that’s correct either, though. There’s no requirement for a vest and it has no legal meaning, and they’re also often worn by emotional support animals, which aren’t service animals. I think you’re thinking of the “where it isn’t obvious that the animal is a service animal” clause, but I don’t think a vest is enough to make it obvious, and the ADA FAQs don’t say that it is.

        However, I’m overall in agreement with you. You get to ask those questions *if it’s your job to determine whether the dog should be allowed.* It is not the job of a random co-worker to determine that, and the law doesn’t pave the way for it being acceptable for everybody to quiz the disabled as long as they stick to those two questions. An employer that tolerated that would be on thin ADA ice, so it’s likely an employee that asked such questions would be disciplined and possibly fired.

    19. Plague of frogs*

      Ah. You’re one of those fun people who screams at people who park in disabled parking spots.

  33. Cat*

    OP #4 — perhaps a way to bring up the bad TP situation would be channeling your inner Elle Woods for some humor?

    “It has come to my attention that the maintenance staff switched our toilet paper from Charmin to generic. All those opposed to chafing please say aye.”

  34. ChaoticGood*

    You shouldn’t listen to your fears. Here is my fear about service dogs when people don’t ask the legal-to-ask question “what work or task has your no-doubt lovely dog been trained to perform?” :

    My fear is NOT that the answer is “they provide emotional support” (alongside “I can’t see the crosswalk sign” or “I need help in the restroom” or “I can’t reach things in the kitchen” or the many thousands of things you might need a service dog for, all of which are valid, and all of which I feel like a two-cent heel if anyone thought I meant there wasn’t a good reason to have one.)

    My fear is that that legal, fair question doesn’t get asked.

    My fear is that HR cares deeply about protecting the company from lawsuits, and about staying out of some Buzzfeed list of Companies Who Hate Dogs So Boycott Them.

    My fear is that it’s so easy to buy a vest and fake paperwork online to trick flight attendants, waitstaff, and HR to say you’re legally allowed to bring your animal somewhere.

    My fear is that one person in OP’s letter gets to feel better, but every Carol out there now is the one who has medical costs, psychological and emotional costs to pay, and that allowing one person their emotional support has cost someone else theirs.

    My fear is that having an emotional support animal might provide enough happiness that you feel like things are OK, but that you justify putting off the difficult, ugly, EXPENSIVE work of seeing a therapist (therapists are nightmarishly costly) and of digging deep into yourself to find those sensitive pain points and slowly work them out, the way a good massage therapist does. Which takes time and a LOT of therapy. Going to a therapist isn’t the work; it’s the place where they tell you what work to do, and then you have to go do that work. My fear is that an emotional support animal takes the place of that process.

    My fear is that you can use easy-to-get happiness in a lot of ways to cover up the things that you want to fix. Antidepressants. Weed. Partying well into adulthood. Or a dog. Only a dog isn’t something we’d call addictive, or judge anyone for (though, aren’t I kinda getting around to judging here I guess? ugh. Maybe. I’m trying to work through this while not judging, as you can see). But getting easy happiness doesn’t mean that you’re doing difficult work on yourself.

    I know this rant is dark and full of terrors, that it’s judgey while pretending to not be, but… I’ve been burned before. Dogs have lunged at me, tbh, and several, and though I’m not a Carol, I’m not stupid. But I promise I’m trying to weigh things here, instead of just racing to conclusion.

    I know that you shouldn’t listen to fears. But so many people will take advantage of you for any minor reason, they are willing to spoil the commons so that they can profit even a little bit, that… I feel like I *should* listen to my fears.

    I just shouldn’t act on them.

    1. [insert witty user name here]*

      Yes, there are a lot of jerkwads who get fudged paperwork to call any animal a service animal. If OP has cleared it with her HR department, then we will follow the site’s commenting rules and give OP (and her HR department) the benefit of the doubt.

      What is clear in the OP’s letter is that she is someone who is conscientious of her coworkers. She is trying to help Carol. What part of this letter, exactly, prompted you to think that OP is anything other than a law-abiding, courteous coworker who is trying to do something she has no obligation to do to help a coworker?

      1. Close Bracket*

        In the spirit of “the more you know”:
        > Yes, there are a lot of jerkwads who get fudged paperwork to call any animal a service animal.

        Service animals don’t require any paperwork. There is no form of certification what so ever for an animal to be a service animal. Service animals are trained, both to provide their service and in general, but there’s no certificate or paperwork (except maybe your check stub!) for that training.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The OP says the dog is a service dog, not an emotional support animal. This comment is weirdly rude, and I’m reminding you for a second time of the commenting rules here. Please stop this.

    3. Tuxedo Cat*

      I don’t think there’s a single policy, social service, or kind act that hasn’t had at least one person take advantage of it. There will always be at least one person. I think you’re being unfair to the letter writer- I don’t think she called it an emotional support animal or said it’s a cover for anything.

      I hope you get support your need from a medical professional because you’re projecting on someone you don’t know. It’s possible that the letter writer has a horrific dog, but it’s just as equally if not more so likely that the dog is fine.

    4. OP #3*

      Well, then.

      I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences in the past. But you don’t know me, and you don’t know my life or what I’ve gone through. And to assume that I’ve just gotten a random dog and a vest is insulting. Assuming my employer just let me bring my dog without any due diligence is erroneous. And trying to assume people who have service animals are not also under medical supervision, or that they are addicts (?), is an ableist assumption.

      I’m just trying to make sure everyone is comfortable, including Carol. And you. But you also have to think about the conclusions you are jumping to.

      1. tangerineRose*

        OP3, I think you rock for trying to figure out a way to make Carol more comfortable. I’m not sure it’s possible though, but you sound like you’re doing the right things. Good for you!

    5. Akcipitrokulo*

      I can understand that you have fears, and am sorry about your previous experiences.

      Fears can make people act in less than ideal ways; while having compassion for the fear, it’s also important to recognise that the fear does NOT make that behaviour OK.

      The behaviour in randomly demanding that disabled people justify their service animal is not OK behaviour.

      The “legal questions” are designed to be asked by service providers (eg taxi drivers) or employers, and they can expect to get a factual response.

      No-one else is owed such a response.

      Now – about some of the fears – they do seem to be “I fear that (my preferred medical solution) is being ignored in favour of a service animal.”

      That is none of your business.

      People may not want to undertake the kind of therapy that you feel would be beneficial. They may feel a service animal is more suitable for them than certain prescription drugs.

      That is none of your business.

      You also fear that people may be taking advantage of their employers, or that their employers are choosing to go along with “weak” cases for a service animal.

      First – that is none of your business.
      Second – if there are a few people who are taking unfair advantage
      – and the questionning from co-workers or strangers would right this injustice and end the transgression
      – it is STILL not worth the pain and stress it would cause to people who have service animals for legitimate reasons. It is not OK to expect people to justify themselves to you.

      I’m sorry if that sounded harsh – I do understand that you are speaking from a place of fear – but that fear is yours. I hope you are able to find ways to deal with it that bring you peace.

    6. MakesThings*

      Oh, I see. Now we will score depressed people for how easy or hard-won their happiness is, and judge them accordingly.
      Have you tried not being this way?
      No idea why others are being full of compassion, but I’m going to just go ahead and be harsh.

    11. Annabelle*

      This is not directly relevant to the matter at hand (though your comment isn’t either, really), but I do hope you reconsider that people taking psychotropic meds are somehow taking the easy way out. That is extremely ableist. Talk therapy (94 CBT and DBT, for that matter) cannot fix everything.

    12. 1.0*

      This is SO MUCH assigned to the LW, and I think she’s been awfully kind to respond to you at all, honestly! And, all else aside —

      “My fear is that you can use easy-to-get happiness in a lot of ways to cover up the things that you want to fix. Antidepressants.” oh come on, this is ridiculous. Speaking as someone who is in therapy and making great progress even though it’s the hardest thing I’ve done in my life, and also need(ed) an antidepressant because I was physically incapable of getting out of bed, this really took me aback!

    13. Lindsay J*

      I’m really uncomfortable with you insinuating that people who take prescription medication or who need service animals are not putting in the work.

      That’s just not true.

      I’ve been to therapy. A lot of therapy.

      I refused to take medication because of the ideas of people like you – that people are overmedicated, that the pills were going to turn me into a zombie, that I didn’t need medication because there was nothing wrong with me other than being lazy and disorganized, or that taking medication was the easy way out.

      And I fucked up my life for years until I sucked it up and decided I was going to try medication. Therapy isn’t going to change my brain chemistry. And frankly, I don’t care if you believe that or not. I’m hoping you’re not a therapist or medical professional. And even if you are you’re not my therapist or medical professional so your opinion on this holds zero weight.

      And it’s incorrect to group positive self-care steps such as taking prescription medication under the guidance of a doctor, or getting a service animal, with maladaptive addictions to drugs or alcohol or just plain pretending the problem doesn’t exist.

      Also, a real service animal is hugely expensive. Much more expensive than therapy in the short term.

      And you say you’re not judging, but you are clearly being very judgmental about this.

      If you are really weighing these things, this probably isn’t the proper forum for it. Ironically, a discussion with a therapist would probably be a more appropriate venue for working through these ideas, as well as the idea that s someone having a therapy dog might be taking advantage of you.

      It’s just plain rude and inappropriate here. (Kind of like the idea that someone who passed away might have not been a good person, but it would be rude to say so in front of their family at their funeral. There is a time and place for everything, and questioning whether somebody actually needs a therapy dog to their face when they’ve written in f0r help with trying to minimize their coworker’s discomfort is neither the time nor place).

      And I hope you can examine what you’ve written here and see how a lot of what you said is deeply ableist.

      I would love to be able to manage my depression with just therapy. Or therapy and exercise or meditation or diet changes or whatever else. I can’t. I’ve spent decades trying. It doesn’t work. It’s like telling someone with type 1 diabetes “Just make a normal amount of Insulin – if you worked hard at it you could do it.” Taking medication is expensive and inconvenient at the best of times (and I’m still paying for therapy on top of it, not in lieu of it as well, don’t worry). There are unpleasant side effects. I have to do regular drug tests for work and the medication causes me hassle there. There are challenges with traveling overseas with them. If people happen to see my bottles I risk getting judged (like you’re doing for taking medication, or for just plain having a mental illness in the first place) as being lazy or incompetent or unstable. I can never get a pilot’s license even if I stop medication at this point. There are people who outright won’t date anyone with mental illnesses. There is no reason I would do it if I didn’t have to. However, the alternative is not being able to do anything other than sit around like a lump. So all that shit is better than the alternative.

      Same with the assumption that someone with a therapy animal is trying to get something over on people. What, exactly? Most people who just plain love their dog are not going to lie about having a disability (and all the baggage that goes along with that) to be able to bring their dog to work with them or into a grocery store. Do you feel the same about people with handicapped placards on their cars? What about someone who gets the “privilege” of carrying their CPAP machine or insulin kit onto a plane along with their regular carry-on?

      I tried really hard to respond in good faith to you here, because I didn’t really feel like your message to the OP (or indirectly to any of us here with disabilities) was in good faith at all.

      1. Just Tired*

        I rage against the mental illness stigma all the time, and often use the insulin example as well. And cancer. Sorry about your brain tumor, have you tried CrossFit?

    14. Close Bracket*

      “My fear is that you can use easy-to-get happiness in a lot of ways to cover up the things that you want to fix. Antidepressants.”

      lol, kiddo, I *wish* anti-depressants made happiness easy to get! They don’t even make mental wellness easy to get, and as a reminder, antidepressants don’t bring happiness. Antidepressants, if you’re lucky, bring wellness. Not the same thing at all.

      Me, my fear is that people with broken legs use easy to get wellness to cover up the broken bone that they want to fix. Casts. Wow, that sounds just a stupid when applied to physical health as it does when applied to mental health.

    15. Kelly L.*

      So my friend who’s blind could just stop being blind if she didn’t have a Seeing Eye dog?

    16. Thursday Next*

      There are many fears you cite here, and I think it might be good for you to take a deeper, longer look at each of them. For instance, you fear people’s attempts to defraud “the system” (which system? Whose system?) by falsely claiming an animal is a service animal. Why is this something you *fear*? What’s at stake?

      Similarly you fear that people are “taking the easy way out.” What do other people’s medication regimens or treatment plans have to do with you? What, to you, seems “easy” about them? And how do you leap from the idea of treatment to “happiness”? Treatment for many mental illnesses is not about creating an artificial happiness, but about restoring some balance to a mind that is engaged in self-deception. The things that depressed brains and anxious brains tell us are highly misleading.

      Most importantly, I’d ask you to reflect on why accommodations for disabilities are pinging your fraud and “easy fix” radars. It’s very difficult to ask for, and sometimes even harder to receive, accommodations. Why does this bother you so much.

      (As an aside, it took six months for me to get a city disabled parking permit for the car we bought to transport our disabled child. It involved getting forms filled out by our pediatrician, having them reviewed by city transit physicians, and getting her a non-driver’s license to be considered eligible. Yes, I had to wait on line at the DMV with my disabled six-year-old. This is not the kind of process most people undertake for funsies, and it’s only one of the many accommodations processes people with disabilities have to go through.)

    17. Reboot*

      Antidepressants are not “easy-to-get happiness” that “cover up the things that you want to fix”, tyvm. They’re a part of that difficult work on myself.

  35. Midlife Job Crisis*

    OP2: Do you think this person is trying to make money in general from referrals?

  36. Irish Em*

    OP1, I have experienced this in both my jobs. The most recent instance of it happening, the bosses daughter was pregnant and some of the members were chatting with her about their own experiences (yay horror stories) while my shoulders crept closer and closer to my ears.
    One lady, who I’m fairly sure spotted my discomfort, said something along the lines of “good job we’re all women here and want to hear all the gory details.” It could have been my chance to say I was a bit discombobulated, but… It was the bosses daughter who was the focus of conversation and I couldn’t have said I was uncomfortable if my life depended on it.
    All I can say to you, OP1 is Gah! I hope you are able to get your coworkers to give you a break on the Call the Midwife chat.

    1. Had Matter's Pea Tarty*

      >“good job we’re all women here and want to hear all the gory details.”

      Urgh! Wrong! Wrong, wrong, wrong! Why is that even an assumption someone with a halfway functioning brain would make? Oh yeah, because all women love babies, right? /s

      1. OP1*

        THANK YOU!
        Not every woman wants to hear about childbirth and all the “gory details” that go with it.
        Having a baby sucks, I get the concept that it is a painful and mostly negative experience, I do not want to talk about it during meals.

  37. Snark*

    “I can’t even eat my lunch without someone discussing a torn perineum.”

    Well. This was written, here.

    1. hermit crab*

      That and “a side of placenta” cracked me up!

      (I was raised by a charmingly enthusiastic OB/GYN and this kind of stuff was literally our dinner table conversation when my brother and I were kids. My poor teddy bear was used more than once to demonstrate to us where C-section incisions are made. I am immune to the ick factor and will happily engage on all manner of reproductive health topics. But I still do not think the details are appropriate for office lunchroom conversation!)

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I come from a family of nurses. I feel your pain. (Imagine four nurses around the table at Thanksgiving, with a discussion not limited to reproductive health topics at all, and maybe you can feel MY pain.)

        1. hermit crab*

          haha oh yes – have you had anyone hold up a piece of turkey (or whatever) to demonstrate something about bones & muscles? I find that sort of thing hilarious/fascinating, but it’s definitely not OK for most workplaces.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Oh, nothing as benign as bones and muscles… think “things that can prolapse.” :-/

        2. Chinook*

          My university roommate was a student nurse and I quickly became immune as well. Which is good because I can now stomach DH’s responses when I ask how his day as a cop went (let’s just say I now know the many ways one can die in a traffic accident and leave it at that).

      2. Snark*

        Oy. I’m charmingly enthusiastic – maybe – about invasive species, but I’m not chattering on about Russian olive at the dinner table, for Chrissake.

  38. Naptime Enthusiast*

    OP#2, my company offers bonuses for referrals as well. It is mentioned in our staff meetings by our managers that the referral is available, but they always make it clear that it is someone you know well/have worked with before, and that you would be able to give a glowing recommendation for. They’ve also told us about idiots that have referred random strangers that didn’t work out, and it made management question their judgment. Would that kind of language coming from his manager make this guy cut it out?

    As for the phone screenings the guy is doing, that is absolutely not okay in our work. I was given a decent amount of training by HR on how to conduct phone screens, including behavioral questions to ask, skill sets to inquire about, questions we COULD NOT ask even if we feel it’s relevant, and how to answer inappropriate or uncomfortable questions from interviewees. I’ve been asked by prospective interns about my salary and what they could expect to make (fair question, I don’t blame them for asking but I don’t know the answer for interns and what I make isn’t what an intern will make!!!), and I was very glad to have the tools and language to not answer that without being a jerk. I doubt this guy is avoiding answering those kinds of questions in his “screens”, and it might get your company into trouble depending on what he’s saying.

  39. Product Manager*

    OP2, have you talked to the employee about why they are doing this? That’s a lot of work for a slim shot at a referral bonus.

    If the employee is a member of a group that is underrepresented in the firm, they may be trying to do some recruiting in their community.

    More generally, if they are motivated by an interest beyond just getting a bonus, maybe there’s a way to get them some training and involve them in recruiting? They are taking initiative and might become effective with guidance – if you’re in a competitive hiring market, that interest could be worth cultivating.

    But if this is purely a coin-operated interest, telling them to cut it out is legit.

  40. OP5*

    Thanks for answering, Alison! More has actually happened with this situation since I sent my question. Last week, first thing Monday morning, the admin who has contacted me to schedule every interview I’ve had with this organization sent me an email with subject “Position Update” and said that the HR manager (the other people I’d been working with were recruiters) wanted to have a phone conversation with me. I spoke with her later that day. She said the recruiter from Job 2 was “no longer with the team”. She said the job went to an internal candidate and again “everyone was very impressed with you” and asked me take a look at another job that had just been posted. She said if I was interested in it “or any other position” just to email her directly. It was for a very low level job that I was not interested in. I sent her a polite email to say thank you, but I’m looking for something more challenging. Yesterday, I emailed her again that I was interested in another job that had been posted that’s a little more what I’m looking for. The saga continues!

    1. MissingArizona*

      It’s great that they’re communicating with you, and I hope all of the back and forth is worth it. Good luck!

  41. NewHerePleaseBeNice*

    In one of my current roles the stuff provided in the ladies is so appallingly thin and scratchy that I now bring my own loo paper (and my own pens, and notebooks, and post-its and board markers but that’s another story entirely).

    As I’m a contractor, and I have very little filter about these things*, I keep said loo paper on my desk and take it to and fro when I need to, er, utilise it (usually for the obvious need, sometimes for cleaning the whiteboard in my training room).

    *I definitely would NOT want to hear about anyone’s torn perineum over lunch though…

    1. The Wall of Creativity*

      You take post-its in there with you? Quite a good idea to be fair. It gets around the problem of blocking the pipes with unflushables.

  42. Delta Delta*

    OP 3 – When I was a kid I got chased by a dog. He was a big German shepherd-sort of beast. The dog had gotten out of his fence a few houses down and ran over to me. Maybe he was being friendly – I have no idea. But I was about 5, and I was outside in the back yard on my swing, and suddenly there was a big dog coming at me. He might have been barking, but I don’t remember that part. I jumped off the swing and I ran as fast as I could go until I got into the house. The dog followed me and stopped when we got close to the house. Until I was about 25 I couldn’t get close to a dog without being really worried, based on that experience. (BTW, my mother, who is 72, was attacked by a chow when she was about 6 years old. She still gets visibly scared when she sees a dog that looks like the one who attacked her)

    Something like this might have happened to Carol. Carol may completely intellectually understand that people have service dogs, but still be afraid of dogs (that was me!) Carol may also not feel she can speak up and say she’s uncomfortable because the dog is a working dog, doing his job so the LW can do her job. It feels a little tone-deaf for HR to say there’s no need to move desks if it’s clear Carol is uncomfortable, especially since it seems to be having a ripple effect on LW, too.

          1. OP #3*

            I offered to move desks. Carol would have been able to stay in her desk in the arrangement proposed by HR.

            1. bonkerballs*

              So I realize this is wild speculation, but it could be that since it would be *you* moving desks, Carol may be trying to put up with the situation so as not to look like she forced you out. I know that I’ve gotten a lot of crap from people about not liking/fearing dogs, and I would imagine that Carol has too. And this is a dog you actually need to accommodate your disability, not just a dog friendly office. So it may be (but again, just speculation since I don’t know anything about Carol) that Carol really would prefer you to move desks, but also doesn’t want to be seen as the person who can’t handle someone else’s disability accommodations and is (albeit, somewhat poorly) trying to make do.

              1. Snark*

                That’s probably the dynamic. But, while the optics of being the person who forced the disabled person with the service dog to move are Not Good – and frankly, she would absolutely be doing that, so it’s not like she’s totally off base – the optics of being the person who treats the disabled person and their dog like Cujo is approaching are so very much worse. Carol should move, and if there’s optics there that don’t favor her, that’s too bad.

                1. bonkerballs*

                  To be fair, if this is an actual phobia (which it sounds like) Carol then also has a disability and has just as much right to accommodations as the OP, so coming down hard on Carol like it seems you want to do based off several of your comments (and please correct me if I’m wrong) isn’t a great option either. I think OP is doing everything she needs to do, I just wanted to offer some potential perspective on why Carol may have refused the desk transfer option.

                  Also, quite frankly, it doesn’t seem like that would help the situation all the much anyway. I believe OP mentioned that the frightened interactions are appearing more often in passing than actually at their desks.

    2. tangerineRose*

      Your experience sounds terrifying. German Shepherds tend to be fast runners, so the dog was probably just trying to be friendly, not trying to attack (or it would have bitten you), but a large strange dog running at you – that’s scary.

      Several years ago, a German Shepherd ran up to me and since I didn’t know the dog, I was scared (I’m an adult, and I love dogs, especially German Shepherds). It turned out OK – the dog was just being friendly, but I love dogs and am still cautious around dogs (big or little) that I don’t know well.

      There are plenty of great, sweet dogs out there, but there are some dogs that aren’t so nice.

      The unpleasant experiences I’ve had with dogs (if it helps to know about this so you can avoid it) happened once when I turned my back on an agitated dog who was near me and once when I was running near a dog. But most of the dogs I’ve met have been great.

  43. Nonnon*

    Well, the problem seems to be solving itself… although I personally wouldn’t want to be using paper from the toilet to print my documents.

    1. The Wall of Creativity*

      Better that than having to clean out the musty basement with photocopier paper, which is what OP#4 is having to do.

  44. MarySue*

    I don’t usually discuss childbirth at work but after a recent one on one conversation with a fellow mother, I sent her a video of the Miracle of Birth song from Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. So funny. Then I spent the next day worried that she would not find it funny and I’d get fired for sexual harassment. “Tear tear tear goes your vagina!” If that was inappropriate for the workplace I think any discussion of the birthing experience that is detailed enough to include perineums would also be. If these conversations are happening on the regular in the presence of non mothers or anyone who is not comfortable with the topic, isn’t that creating a hostile workplace?

  45. Ladylike*

    Just wanted to chime in on the toilet paper situation because I’m dealing with a similar situation at my job. Money is tight and the company has stopped refilling the automatic air fresheners in the bathrooms. The men’s and women’s restrooms are tied together on the same HVAC system, and sometimes the stench is overwhelming. Also, I’ve always had issues with the industrial hand soaps in public restrooms – like the letter writer, my hands are in horrible shape throughout the week, and they recover on the weekends, only to be dried out to the point of bleeding again by the following weekend. So, I took it upon myself to start stocking the restroom with inexpensive moisturizing hand soap (79 cents a bottle) and spray air freshener ($1 a can). I don’t mind if others use them (which they do). I just bring enough so it’s there when I need it. Who knows? Someone else might catch on and start contributing too. The toilet paper might be more of a challenge, but some restrooms have cupboards where it could be stashed so she wouldn’t have to carry it back and forth.

  46. Rusty Shackelford*

    #1 – I think the seventh level of hell is women telling their “birth stories.” (And I say this as a woman who has given birth.) I’m not even squeamish. It’s just that, for some reason, the women who want to tell me their stories are (a) convinced they’re writing the Great American Novel, (b) convinced they’re writing a horror movie, (c) toppers, (d) complaining that they haven’t truly enjoyed a minute of their child’s existence because their carefully scripted birth plan didn’t happen, and (e) in the case of my inlaws, all of the above. If there is any polite, reliable to way to change the topic, I’d love to hear it.

    1. DCompliance*

      I think one of your inlaws could be I friend of mine. She is great, but when it comes to her sharing her “birth story” all if the above.

    2. LiveAndLetDie*

      This. I had my baby six months ago and I have no desire to share my birth story nor do I want to hear other people’s, but I get asked ALL THE FRIGGIN’ TIME “what’s your birth story?” by other recentish moms, and often have just found myself mid-birth-story before I even realize what’s happening, because some folks seem to think it’s how you say “hi” to other new moms. It’s exhausting.

      1. Grapey*

        Never a mom but I’m chuckling at the idea of “Gave birth.” as the reply to “what’s your birth story?”.

      1. Lissa*

        d) is super freaking weird, and I don’t get it. I have encountered people like this about their weddings and that’s odd enough.

  47. Observer*

    #1 You certainly can ask people to back off on the graphic parts of the childbirth discussion. But, don’t tell people it’s “disgusting” – even if they accommodate you, people will be offended. Stick to “I’m squeamish” and “Eww, graphic medical stuff.”

    1. OP1*

      “Do we need to discuss this during lunch?” and “I’m sure this is interesting to you but I don’t like talking about this” that’s the level of bluntness I’m willing to go to. In my head I’m thinking to myself “why did you look down there with a mirror the day after?! Why are you telling me about this?!” “Stop telling me about the hemorrhoids it gave you!” and “EWWWWW!” but I don’t say those things out loud.

  48. Emi.*

    #4 If you want to carry toilet paper discreetly, you can cut the cardboard out and flatten the roll so it’ll fit better in a pocket or purse, especially if it’s a roll you’ve already used part of.

  49. Observer*

    #$ Lots of luck with your new president. He definitely sounds like the “penny wise, dollar foolish” type. This is not about having a financial background – I work in a non-profit and all of our top finance people have always been VERY focused on saving a penny if we can. But the changeover with your computers caught my eye. Servers and stuff REALLY need to changed on a schedule, NOT “when they break”. And even with desktop computers, waiting till the break, as opposed to “getting too slow to use appropriately” tends to wind up costing more than its worth.

  50. Merci Dee*

    My concern with OP #2 …..

    If the guy is doing all this referring during the day, when is he finishing his work? Seems like that is definitely something his manager would want to get a handle on.

  51. Not Alison*

    OP#1 – I’m going to disagree with Alison on this one. Although I agree with OP that I don’t care for talk on this topic, if my co-workers wanted to talk about it during time that is not work time, they totally have a right to do so.

    If it were me, I would mention to the co-worker that I was closest to that I would prefer to only come to lunch with them when the topic was something other than childbirth and would suggest that one day a week be childbirth free talk.

    Asking them to refrain from EVER talking about a topic of interest to them during their personal time (i.e. lunch) seems kind of rude to me. On the other hand if they are talking about it near your desk during work hours, that is a totally different answer and I would agree with Alison’s counsel.

    1. lawyer*

      Well, OP is part of the group that’s having lunch. I think it would be rude if she were intervening in a conversation that she isn’t part of to ask them to stop, but she isn’t. That said, I think Alison said, and I agree with her, that the OP can ask that they stop but not insist on it. That is, she agrees with you – they have a right to do it if they want to, but the OP also is just as entitled to request that they choose a different subject.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Also, this seems to be an ongoing thing. Sure there is *something* else that interests them? How much can they have to say about one topic before they’re just rehashing old traumas?

    3. LBK*

      If she weren’t a part of the group and were just overhearing this conversation I might agree with you, but I don’t think there’s anything rude about asking the other people in a group you’re a part of if they can change the subject/save that talk for when you’re not around.

      I mean, we do this dance in my office every Monday when Game of Thrones is on depending on who was able to watch the episode last night. It’s not that hard to just change the subject and be cognizant of what the people you’re talking to might not want to hear about.

      Just because it’s someone’s “right” to do something doesn’t mean you can’t ask them politely to not do it anymore of their own volition. You can’t force them to, but sometimes – gasp – people actually like to be considerate of others and would be happy to not talk about something anymore once they realize it’s grossing out their friends.

  52. Allison*

    #2 If you have a referral bonus, he’s probably trying to make a little extra money. At my last job, we did occasionally encourage people to look at their LinkedIn networks, we even created a link that would show people all of their connections that may be qualified, but generally we didn’t want or need employees actively sourcing for our openings, that’s my job!

    You need guidelines for this referral program. You need to make it clear, both to this employee and others who may consider doing the same, that it’s not appropriate to conduct a phone screen prior to submitting a referral, and once a decision has been made about a referral, the employee needs to accept that decision and not argue. Consider having a lower referral bonus for people the candidate does not know personally and had not worked with directly, and make it clear that if someone is abusing the system by frequently sending in people they barely know and who are barely qualified for the roles, they may be prohibited from referring candidates, or ineligible for the bonus.

  53. Camper*

    OP#4- they have travel TP that is smaller (doesn’t have the middle cardboard roll) that will fit better in a bag or tucked into your waistband.

  54. Dust Bunny*

    LW1: I used to work for a veterinarian. I’d be *glad* to send you some stories that will make childbirth sound like a day at a spa.

  55. Lena*

    1. This is why early in my career I tended to chat more with male co-workers and not female … when I was in my 20s (in the late 80s) it seemed that other women my age wanted only to talk about weddings, pregnancy, childbirth, and childrearing. My interests were elsewhere and it probably was apparent (I managed to plan my entire wedding without dragging the entire office into it – LoL!). My male colleagues were talking about a wider array of topics and this is where I gravitated.

    1. Kate*

      I work with mostly men, and you could swap weddings and babies with football. Just football…even when it’s not football season.

    2. OP1*

      I’ve been sitting more with the IT guys for now. They talk about video games, bitcoins, pets, dieting, ect. They seem to have a wider breadth of conversation right now

  56. Madame X*

    OP#1: You can choose not to eat lunch with the ladies if you don’t like the conversation. Doesn’t even matter what the topic is. I am occasionally compelled/expected to have an official dept lunch, and the conversation is always, always about my co-worker’s kids and/or childcare issues. I have no children, so I have little to contribute. I try to sound interested, because that’s polite, but frankly, it’s boring. Someone will occasionally recognize the monopoly on the conversational topic (and my minimal participation), and there will be an announced attempt to discuss something else for my benefit (!!… how embarrassing and awkward), but that lasts mere minutes until someone launches into a kid story again. I only go if it’s an official dept lunch, and otherwise, I don’t eat with those co-workers.

  57. Lindsay J*

    #5 It’s definitely possible that they really mean it.

    My boyfriend applied to a ton of jobs to get his current position. And his current position isn’t one that he applied for. He interviewed with his now manager in December two years ago for an entirely different position. It wound up being an “I like you, but not for this. We have another position coming open soon that we think you would be a great fit for”. And, about 4 months later, the manager gave him a call, said the position he mentioned was now open. They had an informal interview about it, and he wound up getting it.

    After accepting that job, in the next year he got called back by companies a couple times about positions that had been put on hold due to hiring freezes, or positions where their first choice didn’t work out, to come in again. It was strongly implied by those companies that they would hire him if he were interested in their open spots.

    I know when I’m hiring, if HR sends over a candidate that isn’t quite the right fit for one of my positions, but is a fit for a different position I have open, I will have them call and ask if they’re interested in the other position as well.

  58. Lala*

    #1 — My general response to these kinds of conversations is “Aaaand this is why I have no interest in ever having kids.”

  59. Hiring Mgr*

    I’ve worked in companies that provided substantial ($10K) referral bonuses…These are typically high growth co’s that are hiring like mad, and the recruiters would sit down with you and go through your LinkedIn connections one by one.. That’s just to say that while referral guy is clearly not going about it the right way, it’s not THAT outrageous given what I’ve seen happen… But yes, he shouldn’t just be doing cold outreach to people

  60. Former Retail Manager*

    OP#4….If the new president is a numbers person, you might consider approaching them with numbers. If the awful toilet paper you mention is the typical 1 ply stuff that you need half a roll of to accomplish the goal, perhaps some data on the cost of the 1 ply versus a higher quality paper, that you use less of, would influence him. I have always wondered if the cost savings of the cheap stuff is really worth it considering how much more of it you have to use. Hopefully, that data exists somewhere on the great internet. If it turns out that the cheap stuff really is a better deal, I’d take my own. Sympathies…nothing ruins your day like an irritate tushy.

  61. TootsNYC*

    “now they preface stories with “OP1, you aren’t going to like this story- but “

    Maybe you should just get up and take your lunch with you when they do that. Don’t say anything–just leave.

    And don’t come back.

    See if a couple of times of that will stop them.

    (and seriously–how many lunches can they spend on this before they’re just repeating themselves?)

    1. fposte*

      Or, alternatively, consider this a nice warning, and laugh and say “Thanks for the alert!” and get up and move. That eliminates the risk of looking like you’re sulking while still taking away what seems to be a pleasure in pushing buttons.

  62. CollegeInstructor*

    Occasional commenter, new name to avoid outing myself.

    I teach intro physics. When my university switched to GOD AWFUL toilet paper, I wrote a homework problem about how likely it is to accidentally break the terrible stuff while trying to pull on the wheel. My students thought it was hilarious, and rightfully pointed out that at least I could have the good stuff at home. They all lived in dorms and had that terrible stuff 24/7 unless they kept their own stash (which several said they did). +1 for bonding with students.

    They also gave serious thought about the maximum force you could pull on it with, and how that depended on how much was left on the roll. +1 for learning physics.

    Win-win.

  63. Terrified of Dogs*

    RE: OP#3:
    I suffer from a serious phobia of dogs. When I was 16 years old, someone’s “service dog” (which was really an “emotional support dog” or, more accurately, a pet) attacked me viciously while I attending a wedding. This person and their dog were attending another function, but both spaces shared a restroom. I was washing my hands, minding my own business, not even talking to the person or her animal when suddenly it lunged at me.

    I had to have 20 stitches, lost feeling in my wrist for a good while, and to add insult to injury, the offending party refused to cooperate and provide vaccination records. So, I had to have a rabies series. She was very quick to tell everyone he was a “service dog” when the management of the venue got involved and called for an ambulance.

    I’m sure your dog is lovely, and well trained, but I would be nervous around him. Still, I would find a way to make it work like switches desks or something. I will tell you, I would make sure you were not in a shared restroom with your dog, because I still have nightmares about the incident.

    I think talking to Carol might be your best bet. I don’t know that you’ll be able to ease her fears (I’m going on 8 years of my fear and still working through it). But, you may be able to understand what’s going on better.

    1. Terrified of Dogs*

      *I would make sure I was not using the restroom when you were in there, and I would ask that you not take offense. Sorry, that wasn’t very clear.

    2. Observer*

      That’s just horrible!

      The refusal to provide vaccination records says everything you need to know about the legitimacy of the this “service dog”. Beyond that, it’s just a HORRIBLE thing to do. I’d love to see some sort of regulation that if a dog bites someone and the owner can’t / won’t provide records, the dog either gets tested (with or without the owner’s consent) or destroyed. Once a dog bites someone, it becomes a public hazard.

      1. tangerineRose*

        I think that or something similar is the law in some places. The veterinarian said that if an indoor-only cats bit someone,and the cat wasn’t vaccinated for rabies, the cat would have to be in quarantine, even though, as an indoor-only cat, the likelihood that the cat would have rabies was very small.

    3. MissingArizona*

      I got bit at the dog park by a “super friendly dog!”, took 3 hours before the person would cough up vaccination records cause the dog was mixed with a breed not allowed on base, and security forces had to call their commanding officer before they complied. Extra uncomfortable because they just moved in across the street. I still take my dog to the park, but I am way more vigilant. Took about a year before I could actually relax around new dogs.

  64. Aphrodite*

    For OP #2: I’m also curious about how he represents himself to these people. Does he imply he is with HR? Does he tell them he’ll get them the job? What does he say? It might be VERY interesting to call two or three of these people yourself and find out exactly what he says and does.

    I realize there is no indication of this, but what if–just IF–he is using this not only to get a bonus from your company but to sexually harass women (or men) or try to get them to give him personal information such as home address, social security number? It seems to me the potential risks to your company go far beyond ripping a bonus out of them.

  65. Master Bean Counter*

    #1–Can you put on head phones and still enjoy your lunch?
    #2-Are you monetizing referrals? That’s the only reason I see that this guy keeps screening. If that’s the case put up a rule that after 3 bad referrals there will be no rewards.
    #3-Bless you for being so considerate!
    #4-My boss had said that if anybody buys one ply for our office, they will be written up.
    #5-They really do like you. Eventually something will stick, or they might create a position where you are the perfect person.

  66. Rod*

    OP4: I’ve dealt with IBS and extreme anal sensitivity for over 10 years. If I use any toilet paper – even good, soft stuff – I immediately start bleeding. At home I use a bidet, but when I’m out in public or work, I always have wet wipes with me. They can fit discreetly in a pocket, or in a bag (I’m a guy, so I carry a small shoulder bag with me wherever I go). At work whenever I have to go to the toilet I just slip the packet in my pocket and no one’s the wiser.

  67. nnn*

    For #3, if moving desks would (or could be perceived as) mean getting a better desk, it might be good form to ask her if she would like to move desks, or if she would prefer that you do so.

    Also, if you go to have a private conversation with Carol to figure out how to make things easier for her (or for any other reason), is it logistically possible to do so without bringing your service dog closer to her? Or, at the very least, can you physically place yourself between her and the dog?

  68. nnn*

    Idea of questionable quality for #1: “Excuse me, I just remembered I have to go take my pill.”

    I (as a childfree woman of childbearing age) have actually used this one successfully, but it depends enormously on context and personalities.

    1. bonkerballs*

      I”m not sure why this would have any effect. I mean, being on birth control doesn’t mean you never want children, for one thing. And for some people, it’s use has nothing to do with actual birth control at all (and instead regulates pain, acne, hormones, and all sorts of other things). And also, people can be engaged in conversation about activities they have no interest in ever participating in. If someone said that to me while we were having a conversation about childbirth, I wouldn’t register that as any different than another person excusing them self because their phone rang or someone else needing to use the bathroom.

    2. Joielle*

      Haha! I don’t know that it would make the conversations stop, but it would be hilarious.

  69. Cringing 24/7*

    OP3 – Alison’s last paragraph underscores an important point. If you haven’t already had a conversation with Carol, it may behoove you to do so. She may have brought her fears to HR and HR may have (as is unfortunately common) decided that they couldn’t do anything for her out of a misguided fear of violating ADA, when you were completely willing to move desks. So perhaps rehash with her what her needs are and where those may align with your ability to assist.

  70. Kelly*

    OP#1: I work in a hospital so that convo, and much more graphic, happen all the time at lunch. So much so that we sometimes forget that when we’re out with ‘regular’ non-medical ppl, it may not be appropriate. I have never been offended when someone asks us to stop talking about it, I appreciate the reminder.

  71. Oxford Coma*

    LW #3 Haven’t seen this mentioned yet, so I just wanted to point out that Carol might actually think things are going well in regards to her fear of your service dog.

    It’s probably worthwhile to try to improve the situation further (and you’re so kind to want to do that) but it might also be that, while you see her shrinking back and avoiding the dog, she may be mentally congratulating herself on not verbalizing her fear/actively running the other way/hyperventilating.

    1. a1*

      I, too, was wondering if Carol thought she was fine (or fine for being around a dog). Or if she thought her reactions were small. How we see ourselves is often different than how someone outside sees them.

      (I’m usually the opposite, but it’s the same thing. E.g. After a bad situation or issue I’ll say something like “Man, I was freaking out all over the place there” and get blinks and blank stares with “You were? You seemed the same as normal. I was glad to be with someone so calm, it helped me.”)

  72. Applesauced*

    #4 if you have to resort to BYOTP, try camping toilet paper. It’s not super high-quality, but it’s fine, and importantly for you – it’s packaged without the roll, so would be easy to bring with you

  73. Goya de la Mancha*

    #1 – I’m VERY squeamish. So those types of conversations would bother me so so so much – to the point of passing out or throwing up if they got bad enough. I go pale quickly and since I’m not very tactful, my go to is always “New topic!” and then start rambling about some random news piece or inane trivia tidbit. Most family/friends/co-workers know this about me so it’s not as jarring to them as it is to strangers. If I don’t feel comfortable saying this, I just get up and walk out.

    I think you have every right to ask the co-workers to keep to more lunch appropriate topics, though it will likely take some time and reminders before it happens regularly.

  74. Bookworm*

    #5: I don’t blame you for feeling this way. Typically I’ve never been *called* but I’ve had a couple of instances where employers have encouraged me to re-apply and/or have asked if I’d be interested in another job. At least one or two of these instances were genuine but there were definitely other situations where I really wasn’t qualified and/or whoever interviewed me were clearly only doing so because of the recommendation (ie I wasn’t the choice). I’ve also been asked if I was interested in another/similar position and that’s it. No interview, no follow-up, no response. In those situations (and a few of the ones I previously described) I strongly suspect they just need a “pool” of candidates to talk to for these things. I’ve never been hired at a place after repeated application attempts, even if it goes through the interview stages and it seems like I really might have a shot, although I’m glad to see that it’s always a possibility.

    If they keep contacting you it might be worth going for the sake of networking and/or building up connections, getting a feel of a place (are you SURE you want to work there?). But I do understand your frustration and hope it works out.

  75. There's a Reason Nobody Likes Me*

    Hey OP #1 — I’ve shut down conversations like that before with enthusiastic descriptions of the different types of smegma. I think it helps that I’m a woman with a face like a kewpie doll.

  76. Manager Mary*

    OP #3, PLEASE mention to Carol that you are willing to switch desks!! I think it is a total jerk move that HR declined on her behalf as it’s pretty clear they didn’t bother asking her. As someone who is TERRIFIED of dogs, I would quit my job if I had to work near a dog. Not because I don’t like you or you have a bad dog, but because my fear is irrational and nothing you or I do can make me not afraid of your dog. I would be eternally grateful if you approached me and mentioned you were willing to switch desks, and I think it speaks volumes about the sort of kind and thoughtful person you are that you’re willing to do so.

  77. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

    #2 I wonder if the referral program could be modified so that the applicant has to be the one to ID who referred them and provide how they know the employee. Take the employees out of the hiring process completely. IME this is usually how businesses handle client referral bonuses — for example my gym will give me a bonus if I refer a new member to them, but the new person is the one who has to submit that I referred them and give my membership number. It can suck a bit for the one doing the referrals because it relies on the honesty of the applicant to benefit the employee, but might cut down on “stranger off the internet” referrals.

  78. leslie knope*

    The comments always get so strange when dogs are involved. Carol isn’t under obligation to get rid of her phobia just so she can come to work.

    1. Observer*

      No one is claiming that she needs to get rid of her phobia. The OP, in fact, is trying to accommodate her!

      1. AManHasNoName*

        I think this may have been referring to some of Snark’s comments above, where they did claim that (before it was pointed out that phobias can also be covered by the ADA).

        I think it is great that the OP is trying to accommodate Carol, but I think this ultimately is one of those cases where if Carol claims it is fine the OP may just need to act on that (since even if it isn’t, there may not be anything she can reasonably do about it-and we don’t want to guess what would be best for Carol once she has declined).

        1. Snark*

          Just to clarify: I understand that the situation is complicated by a phobia’s potential ADA protection, but I maintain it’s absolutely Carol’s responsibility and obligation to control her reaction to the service dog, relocate, or quit.

    3. tangerineRose*

      The OP is just trying to help and try to do something that makes it easier for Carol. Carol doesn’t even want to move desks.

    4. Snark*

      But she is, though. Dogs aren’t a part of it; her behavior is singling out a disabled person for their accomodation, and I rank that above a phobia.

  79. LiveAndLetDie*

    OP2: This guy is basically doing unofficial phone screens as if he’s representing your company, based on what you’ve said here. I would absolutely get his manager involved, he’s misrepresenting the company and could do serious damage to the company’s public image if some of those folks he’s “recruited” get upset and start reviewing your company online or something.

    If this is a case of him trying to spam your referral system in the hopes that something will “stick” so that he can make some cash, it needs to be made clear to him what the parameters of the referral system are and that his own reputation will be affected by the folks he refers in–at every company I’ve ever worked at, if you refer someone, you are vouching for their skills and work ethic, and if they are a terrible match, it reflects on you as well.

  80. Government Lawyer*

    Re #5. I applied for my current job 3 times, was turned down every time, and then they hired me based on the third recruitment without advertising the position again. They kept telling me to please apply for the upcoming recruitment. Once inside, it turned out that there was an inside temp person for the first one, the second one didn’t match up quite well enough to my skills (and I am so glad that one isn’t my job). And the third one I was barely beat out and half the office wanted me and the other half wanted the other person who was picked. It was supremely frustrating at the time but I LOVE my job, have been promoted twice (so clearly I wasn’t just a borderline hire), and have been here 5 years now. Also the last person to beat me out is a good friend now and we constantly rely on each other on tough questions. Suck it up and keep trying!

  81. bopper*

    I use the universal conversation changer/stopper: “Hey, how about those Mets!” (substitute local sports team as appropriate).
    People even realize it is a conversation changer,…but then start talking about the Mets.

  82. Kimberly*

    #1 – I would go with a very blunt but neutral – We are eating could we please not talk about medical procedures at lunch. I actually have done that before and it worked great. (Got it from my Dad who would get nauseous reading Green Eggs and Ham much less my Mom and her friends’ discussion of transplants (they were medical researchers)

    #3 I think both you and your coworker are caught up in the “I have to bend over backwards to be polite” loop. I love the answer given. My niece has been attacked 2x while simply riding her bike. Once by wiener dogs that were allowed to run loose because “they are little and can’t harm anyone”. The 2nd time was by a German Shepard being walked by kids that couldn’t control it. (For the record the wiener dog injuries were more severe). She isn’t phobic, probably because every household on her Dad’s side has 1 or more dogs. She would be much more comfortable if she could be introduced to a service animal that she would be around daily. Also, you acknowledging that the co-worker’s fear also needs some accommodation would probably go a long way. I have a severe contact and sinus allergy to some dogs, and I suspect to some of the grooming anti flea and tick stuff used on them. To the point that I carry a note* from my doctor on planes to hopefully make switching to a later flight easier if the problem comes up. (The contact allergy can cause a skin reaction that won’t kill me but will be extremely painful and take anywhere from a month to several months to get under control.

    *the note about this, allergy meds, and epipen for peanuts in on his Rx pad paper. It has saved my rear with security and customs back before the epipen got so much publicity and people thought it was for bee stings only.

  83. foolofgrace*

    OP#$ — A company I once temped at found an interesting way to save on toilet paper — they sent out an all-hands memo telling everyone that having bowel movements at the office was no longer acceptable. Seriously.

  84. Nep*

    Regarding the toilet paper situation: Try Balneol. I had it recommended to me by my colo-rectal doctor after a series of hemmorhoidectomies (it was as terrible as you expect). It’s basically a lotion to put on the TP before wiping. He said it makes the experience as “smooth as butter” and he was not lying. It is inexpensive and fits easily into a pocket or a purse and is safe to use as often as you need. I highly recommend it – you can find it at any drugstore or at Amazon.

    Seriously – I am in no way affiliated with them, I just need my butt experience to be good.

    1. KayEss*

      That is legitimately the best thing I’ve seen all day. Bad washroom paper products: the first step on the slippery slope to communism!

  86. JennyFair*

    One of my tasks is ordering things, and the first time I made a TP order, my boss quite specifically told me that I was free to order the same kind we had, or a better version, but I was *under no circumstances* to accept anything of a lesser quality.

    These things are important. And the OP is probably not the only one suffering. Actually, someone should do a randomized trial and see if TP affects office culture.

  87. Doctor What*

    OP 1: I am SO sorry this is happening to you! This happened to me when I would eat dinner (along with other ladies) during scrapbooking events at a local craft store, years ago. The women would be making scrapbooks about their children and then the competition as to who had the worst birth experience would start. I couldn’t believe they thought it was meal appropriate conversation!

    I’d finally had enough, and one night I just told them their birth stories were too gross to be told while others were eating. They were surprised, but they never did it again.

    Good Luck!

  88. DarkMatter*

    OP #3:
    First of all, I have disability myself – so no ableism here.
    But I could not help but notice that you stated that having your dog prevents you from taking medication that can lead to suicidal thoughts.
    I know that antidepressants can lead to this – and cannot help but wonder if your dog is an emotional support animal and not a service dog?
    I cannot find this information anywhere in the thread?

    1. OP #3*

      I stated in my letter and repeatedly that my dog is a service dog. Not a therapy dog or ESA. And there are multiple medications that have depression/suicidal ideation as aide effects. Even things like acne and cholesterol medications. It’s not limited to psychiatric medications.

Comments are closed.