open thread – March 2-3, 2018

by Alison Green on March 2, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. bluelyon*

    How do you make someone let you finish speaking when your boss reprimands you for asking them to let you finish?

    My coworker is rude, condesending and generally obnoxious. We had a meeting Wednesday where I did not get to finish a single complete sentence let alone a multi-sentence answer to a question. My current method of dealing with this is to stop talking until she finishes and then pick up again as if she hasn’t said anything when she stops.
    I’d like to be able to say “you’re interrupting please let me finish” but the time I’ve done that I was reprimanded.
    This coworker has been trying to undermine me and my successes since I started here 10 months ago so I’m also at BEC stage with her which isn’t helping my case.

    1. Free Meerkats*

      Have a discussion with your boss immediately after it happens next time and ask her how she wants you to handle those interruptions. She may see your current way of doing it as the “right way.”

    2. Yet Another AAM Librarian*

      Who reprimanded you? Interrupting coworker, your boss, or someone else?

      1. Yet Another AAM Librarian*

        Ah, I see that you clarified that int he first sentence. Sorry! What’s the general reaction (from coworker, boss, others) when you take your usual method of picking up after her interruption?

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I would talk to your boss about it sometime that isn’t in the middle of a meeting. Just say “Hey, I’ve noticed this issue where Jan cuts me off repeatedly when I’m speaking. This can result in prolonging the meeting and making it more difficult for people to clearly understand my point. How would you like me to handle that?”

      If you want to bring up the bigger picture about feeling undermined, I would collect specific examples that demonstrate the pattern you’re seeing, and again, come to your boss with an attitude of asking for advice on what you can do differently.

      1. Hills to Die on*

        ^^ This is the one. Point out how is impedes you from doing your job and remain unemotional.

    4. Irene Adler*

      If this interrupting behavior occurs during work meetings, then the chair person should be addressing this. They can tell this coworker to stop. Then return the floor to you to finish your comments. If chair person is not doing this, suggest bringing this behavior to their attention -prior to the next meeting. And also ask them to address this behavior should it occur.
      You can also address the chair person during the meeting when the interruption occurs and ask them to deal with the interrupting behavior (“excuse me, Chairperson, I did not yield the floor. May I complete my comments please?”).

      If this interrupting behavior occurs with private conversations between yourself and co-worker, you can, when interrupted, turn and walk away. Don’t give them audience for their ugly treatment of you.

      1. Yorick*

        In my experience at all my jobs, most meetings aren’t formal enough for this to happen.

      2. Peanut*

        Yes, whoever is running the meeting should be laying out “ground rules” and making sure people stick to them. I don’t know what gender all the people are, but there is tons of research about how women are undermined in meetings by being held to unconscious biased expectations/roles, getting interrupted frequently, having their ideas ignored, etc. Even if OP is a man, it is certainly reasonable to say that on light of all the research, it is best to operate meetings by a standard, agreed-upon set of rules that will help insure that no one (male or female) is being treated unfairly.

        Now if no one is officially running the meetings, that makes it harder. Depending on the company, you could try bringing it up at the start of another meeting, as a meeting topic itself. If no one has started interrupting anyone else yet and you are discussing theoretical issues rather than one which is occurring at the moment, it is a lot harder to argue that everyone should be allowed to interrupt others.

        1. Specialk9*

          My read was that the manager sees the interrupting, doesn’t reprimand the interrupter, but reprimands the one who asks the interrupter to stop interrupting.

      1. Queen of the File*

        This feels very rude in the moment (so is interrupting, of course) but has been surprisingly effective for me.

        1. Naptime Enthusiast*

          This is especially effective on conference calls, since there’s sometimes a delay and people don’t realize they’re talking over you.

          1. MissDisplaced*

            Conference calls are a little weird though. You can’t see, so sometimes misread the cues, thus thinking a pause is the end.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Totally, but it can be helpful to remind yourself that you’re not being the rude person (the interrupter is), which can make it easier to talk past/over them. But it definitely is uncomfortable, so it can be helpful to practice with a friend (i.e., the friend is aware and is roleplaying with you) before implementing it in real life.

      3. Temperance*

        This is the best way to deal with it. I also tend to speak louder in those moments, too.

      4. Peanut*

        Yes, and possibly combining this tactic with a very brief acknowledgement. Something like, “let’s address questions and comments in a moment” (if you’re in the middle of a presentation) or even just “one moment, please” if less formal, with a nod in the interrupting person’s direction. Don’t pause for a response to that but jump immediately back into what you were saying.

      5. Lucky*

        That has worked for me with some interrupters. Where it hasn’t, I will let the interrupter finish, then ignore what they said and start back to what I was talking about. Like this:

        Me: blah blah software testing is going well for X, but
        I’er: We should start testing on Y and Z immediately and also I am way too important to wait my turn to speak.
        Me:
        Me: As I was saying, software testing is going well for X, but Y and Z won’t be test ready until ABC component is complete.

        I also find it helps stop interrupters when I stand, though that only really works when I’m the one presenting.

        PS Did I ever tell you all about the time that two coworkers interrupted my answer to their question to get into a back-and-forth argument about what each thought my answer would be? That was fun. Ten points if you can guess each of our genders.

      6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Totally agree. If your boss won’t let you call out the behavior, then I’ve found talking over someone as if they’re not speaking to be really effective. Usually the interrupter is relying on you feeling startled by their interruption (and momentarily mute) and then wedging their way into that silence. Don’t give Jan silence.

        I’m sorry you’re dealing with this :(

      7. Optimistic Prime*

        I’ve started doing this when people interrupt me (which happens all the time, it’s kind of the culture here). I raise my voice slightly and just keep talking. It does feel rude initially, but really they’re the ones being rude by interrupting you and you’re just trying to finish what you’re saying so you can understand each other.

        1. boo*

          I was going to say this (and keep saying it if anyone interrupted me!) You also have to power through with the knowledge that people will miss some of what you’re saying, but you can always repeat it later: don’t start repeating yourself while the interrupter is trying to interrupt, or the whole thing breaks down.

          Whatever one thinks of her, Hillary Clinton in the presidential debates is sort of a worst-case training video for this technique. If you don’t want to re-experience that, lots of women in politics do it (Sen. Kamala Harris comes to mind) or you could just come hang out with my mother.

          I know my take on this sounds adversarial, but usually by the time I’m in a situation where someone (or multiple people) feels free to interrupt me repeatedly, it’s already adversarial.

    6. Cajun2core*

      Frankly put, your boss is a jerk for reprimanding you when someone is that rude to you.

    7. DCompliance*

      Did your boss specifically tell you not to do that when your coworker interrupts or was or during another time? is it the words themselves that your boss does not like? Maybe he thinks saying “you’re interrupting please let me finish” could be phrased differently.

    8. bluelyon*

      Thank you all!
      We’re all women but there is an age gap – interrupting co-worker and my boss are about 20 years older than I am.

      Conference calls are a bit easier – I just keep talking since nobody is face to face and as everyone agreed, interrupting is usually an accident.

      I think I’ll try just talking over her – everyone (boss included) tends to let her just keep going – ignoring the interruption may get me further than trying to actually address it.

      I was reprimanded after the fact for saying something to the effect of “I’m still talking can you hang on a second” casual language but it was a casual meeting.

      1. Moonbeam Malone*

        One nice thing about just continuing talking is that even when it doesn’t stop them it can at least make it register in their brain what happened. Some interrupt as a matter of habit and don’t really…think about the fact they’re interrupting? Hard to ignore when you spend 10 seconds talking at the same time as someone else. (This happened to me once with a classmate and while she didn’t initially yield she actually apologized about it after the class. I don’t think she’d have even noticed if I hadn’t tried to keep talking.)

        1. Specialk9*

          Yeah, I’m an interrupter, it’s how I was raised, so I don’t notice I’m doing it sometimes, till someone keeps talking over me. Then I feel awful and apologize. But it’s not on purpose, and it’s actually appropriate in some cultures.

    9. Thlayli*

      It sounds like your boss only reprimanded you once when you asked her to stop talking. So you could try that again. There might have been a particular reason your boss didn’t want you to say that on that particular day, but maybe would be ok with it on other days

      1. bluelyon*

        ugh – In hindsight I didn’t phrase that well – she said it was a pattern of admonishing people for interrupting me. Something I found particularly aggravating because, it’s not like I tell the boss or the CEO not to interrupt me. I ask my peers to let me finish.

        1. Teapot librarian*

          I had someone tell me in what felt like an overly assertive tone to let her finish speaking. I was annoyed at the time because, well, I didn’t think I’d interrupted, but in retrospect I figured she’s probably been interrupted by men a lot and has practiced a “I was still speaking please don’t interrupt me” assertiveness, and just happened to use it on me. All this to say that I wonder if there is something in your tone that you don’t hear/realize/do consciously that is making it come across as admonishment rather than you claiming your airtime.

        2. AnneNotCarrots*

          If there’s a pattern of you having to ask people not to interrupt you – enough that your boss told you to stop – is it possible that you’re domination conversations? Have you looked at your patterns of talking to make sure that people don’t have to interrupt in order to clarify, ask questions, etc? That might be helpful in trying to figure out why this feels common for you.

          1. Specialk9*

            Or if you’re in an interrupting culture and have to navigate it better – they may find you terribly rude because interrupting is appropriate in their culture. Sometimes interruptions are not actually to stop the flow, but to support or encourage or collaborate. Sometimes they’re to take over or guessing (esp aggravating when wrong) what you’re going to say. It could be useful to take a spirit of genuine inquiry and ask an otherwise sympathetic interrupter what it’s about for them and how you should better navigate. Wait vs Interrupt cultures. https://www.lesserwrong.com/posts/LuXb6CZG4x7pDRBP8/wait-vs-interrupt-culture

    10. Marcy Marketer*

      What if you just kept talking, getting louder as he tries to talk over you? Right now you’re stopping and letting him talk so your boss might not realize how much it happens.

      When they’re talking over you, as you continue to talk, hold up a hand. when they pause, say, “just want to finish this thought,” or “thanks for letting me finish that thought,” in a friendly way.

      If you end up getting into multiple talking-over-each-other battles in a single meeting that your boss is in, talk to your boss after and ask if they’d be able to intervene with the employee. Say that it’s distracting and impeding your ability to share important points in meetings.

    11. Managing to get by*

      Have you tried ignoring her and keeping talking as if you were not interrupted?

  2. Adam anon*

    This morning there was supposed to be a meeting to discuss things relating to a critical project. My boss and the other supervisors and managers instead spent the entire time discussing the lawsuit against Google because they won’t hire white men anymore. There is a memo where the diversity committee is being disbanded and there will be no more diversity stuff in our hiring. A while back the company instituted blind hiring and it didn’t make things more diverse. They bought in a consultant and tried again with the same result. My boss and the others are using this as an example of why diversity hiring sucks (their words) and how they are glad the CEO cancelled everything. I had to gear about this all morning. I want to shake my boss because he isn’t even white. I can’t wait to get out of here. I wish the market here didn’t suck because I’ve been looking for almost 2 years but I need full time, I couldn’t survive on unemployment or part time. I was born and raised in this city and except for one cousin who lives and works abroad every relative I have lives in this city or within a one hour drive of it. No way I am leaving my family. It’s selfish but I just can’t. I just want to get out of here so I don’t need to listen to the stupidity like there was this morning. I didn’t even know what to say to push back.

    1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

      Ugh. For starters google does hire white men still … and double blind is great! I actually specifically request blind so that I am not biased in my hiring as much as possible. Google the won the lawsuit too so this is especially odd that they are using that lawsuit as an example of how what google did was wrong ….

      1. Michele*

        Not sure how Google could have won a lawsuit in that was just filed within the last day or so, unless I am misunderstanding the American legal system? I think you are confused or mixed up because the lawsuit was just filed.

        1. NJAnonymous*

          The NLRB ruled 2 weeks ago that Google did not violate federal law when it fired Damore, after Damore filed a complaint with them. Damore apparently withdrew his NLRB complaint and is now focusing on the class action lawsuit.
          Any legal eagles care to comment on the probability of the class action lawsuit even going forward?

          1. Michele*

            So the lawsuit Adam anon is talking about is brand new and has nothing to do with whoever or whatever Danmore is or the EEOC or class action. It is completely different. Link to follow in my next post.

                1. paul*

                  *If* what the lawsuit alleges is true it seems like it’s a slam dunk…but I have to admit to being hard pressed to think Google wouldn’t know better. Simply saying they won’t interview white males for class III jobs would be a textbook example of illegal discrimination.

                2. Nichelle*

                  I’m a women who is not white. I think AA and diversity hiring is important. I believe in diversity in the workplace 100%.

                  But it’s wrong for a company to refuse to interview people of a specific race and/or gender across the board. If the allegations are true it is not a terrible lawsuit at all. You can’t just tell your hiring people to disregard all people who are X across the board. If Google wanted to be more diverse that is not a problem and should be encouraged. But if they are doing it by refusing to interview white and Asian men that is wrong and illegal and Google has to be punished.

                3. Observer*

                  *IF* what the suit alleges is true, then they’ll almost certainly win. However, I suspect that it’s actually not true. It’s not at all difficult to cherry pick emails, or pieces of emails, to make it look like you have a case. We’ll see what happens when they get into court, though. TOTALLY different thing.

                  Given their employment numbers, the idea that Google is refusing to hire white men, though, is pretty absurd.

                4. Hey Nonnie*

                  Yeah, it’s hard to argue that Google isn’t hiring white men when the very high proportion of white men in their workforce hasn’t changed significantly in years. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

                5. Autumnheart*

                  For a company that supposedly prides itself on innovation, it apparently can’t operate its HR department without fucking up spectacularly. First they’re under investigation for overwhelmingly preferring white and Asian men in both hiring and promoting, and pay disparity, and now they try to equalize their hiring diversity and do it in such a way that makes them a lawsuit magnet.

        3. Wendy Darling*

          It is one of many lawsuits against Google re: diversity issues so it’s not hard to get confused.

          I’m a member of a programming group that is made up of white men and tends to skew toward college students and recent grads, and I’m hoping they don’t go for another round of “white men are soooooo persecuted because Google wants to hire some people who aren’t white men” — they’ve done it before and if they do it again I’m gonna flip shit.

          1. Mike C.*

            Not that it’s your responsibility to, but if you do so I’ll certainly be rooting for you. Sometimes people need a slap in the face.

            1. RVA Cat*

              Yeah I’m picturing that looped video of Tyrion slapping Joffrey again and again and again….

    2. Reba*

      WOW.

      It’s not selfish to want to live where you want to live. Sorry you have to deal with that and good luck in your search!

      1. paul*

        amen to that. Having a preference on where to live isn’t bad or a sign that you’re selfish. It’s pretty normal. God knows most everyone I know has places they’d prefer to live and places they’d like to avoid living.

        1. Betsy*

          I completely agree. Having moved countries recently has made me realise how much support networks really matter. There’s this idea that everyone should be willing to move around all the time, but no real discussion about how bad moving all the time is for your relationships. I’ve moved around a little bit- four cities in 11 years. I don’t regret the first cities, but I honestly think my friendship networks and social supports are quite weak. Not many people have strong, supportive families, either, and to me, that’s worth a lot more than mobility.

    3. Britt*

      I just want to say that it’s not selfish that you don’t want to leave your family! I worked at a fortune 100 company across the US from my family, and realized I needed to move back to be closer (plus a toxic work environment didn’t help) If family is a core value to you – that’s so important to take into consideration!

    4. neverjaunty*

      These people are garbage fires, but you knew that. Hoping you find something else soon.

    6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      These people are awful, and I’m so sorry you had to endure this. They also clearly have their heads up their asses.

      In my experience, groups like this make it almost impossible to ensure diversity in hiring, even if the organization says it’s committed to diversity at higher levels. I worked at a place like that, where a handful of our POC staff argued we should hire an underqualified straight white guy who had performed poorly in his panel interview (rude to the women on the panel, including the Exec. Director; said horrific things about the populations we served; etc.) because “white men are under-represented in the legal department.” [Cue my head exploding.]

      If people really don’t understand why AA and diversity hiring programs exist, or if they don’t believe that there are still structural barriers for women, people of color, etc., they will always undermine these efforts. I think the only option is to minimize your interaction with them, and to get out—but I think you know that. I’m really sorry :(

      1. Artemesia*

        It is easy for people rejecting white male applicants to make comments about ‘need for diversity’ to soften the rejection. I have personally known situations where men whined about not getting a job because ‘they had to hire a woman’ or ‘had to hire a minority’ where the actual person hired was in fact another white dude.

        1. copy run start*

          Yes. It’s never that there was a stronger candidate, it must always be because that person was a minority race or gender. As if a woman or PoC can’t possibly be a stronger candidate than them.

          1. neverjaunty*

            Right. And you never, ever hear these Chads whining when another white dude gets a job because of his connections. Merit? But Fergus is from my alma mater, bro! Merit is only for when they hire chicks!

    7. Optimistic Prime*

      I have a lot of thoughts about this but the allegation that Google doesn’t hire white men anymore is so absurd it’s laughable.

      I also don’t think blind hiring is the solution – for a variety of reasons, but mostly because blind hiring doesn’t actually change a company’s culture or the hiring team’s mindset to make them value diversity and practice inclusion. It’s great to hire a more diverse workforce, but the next problem on that ladder is retention – you’re going to lose all your diverse candidates if you haven’t done the work to ensure that your team is prepared to work with a diverse staff.

      I think blind auditions in a symphony orchestra is very different from blind processes in jobs where interaction and interpersonal skills are going to be necessary to measure.

      1. Former Employee*

        I heard that blind judging was started by the Metropolitan Opera many years ago to get the judges to focus on the voice/voice quality and not on the appearance of the singers.

        While I agree that interpersonal skills are important, there is so much bias towards people who look like the other people who already work there that I think the people who do the hiring end up being unintentionally biased against a candidate who looks very different from the current group.

        1. anonagain*

          I think that orchestras are a unique situation. It’s not clear to me what the curtain would be in more typical hiring scenarios.I know when we’ve had these discussions in my workplace, the instinct is to remove names from resumes, but is that enough?

          What if the applicant graduated from a women’s college? Or holds a leadership position in the National Society of Black Engineers? Or has publications/patents from over 20 years ago?

          How do you “blind” the people doing the hiring to the applicant’s demographic characteristics without also obscuring their qualifications?

          I worry that this kind of approach serves mostly to give the appearance of fairness and can lead to complacency. If an organization tries blind hiring and nothing changes so there’s no reason to look further at their recruiting, how they are assessing applicants, working conditions, etc.

    8. Jenny*

      This is no way addresses the issue you’re actually writing about… but I’m very curious about why you feel it’s selfish to stay in your current city?? Is staying someplace because you have family there more selfish than moving away for a better career option? I actually don’t see how a decision like this on where to live could be selfish, but a friend of mine said something similar recently, and it left me totally befuddled!

  3. She who has never baked a potato*

    I started a new job recently and my manager is the person who used to have this role. From my understanding she was something of a superstar in this job – she was promoted pretty quickly, and from what I’ve seen of her work (especially compared to that of other people at her level) I can certainly understand why.

    So far she’s been nothing but encouraging and helpful but I keep worrying that she’d judge me against ‘her’ standard, so every time I get feedback that something wasn’t done 100% correct the first time I freak out a little bit (despite her reassuring me she had similar issues when she first started). Even though I know it’s unrealistic to make zero mistakes when you’re new on the job (fresh out of university) but when your predecessor was so great, it’s hard not to try and match that (kind of like trying to live up to an overachieving older sibling I guess).

    So…how do I realign this mindset? Is there some way I can take advantage of having such a proficient manager instead of treating it like some kind of mental barrier? People complain about bad managers all the time so this seems like a ‘good’ problem to have, but it’s still something I need to get over!

    1. Freya*

      Managers don’t expect you to never ever make mistakes. That’s not what matters! What matter is that you’re listening to the feedback and not arguing or, like, throwing stuff. You don’t need to be perfect, just reflective and teachable. You’re good :)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ask her how she would like you to handle it if you make a mistake. Seriously, confront the concern head on.
      Generally, people how are superstars got to be superstars in part because of their ability to fix mistakes.

      I do realize that asking about any mistake ever is a big question. So I would ask about specific things from time to time. “Boss, I get concerned about running the X reports. I worry about mistakes a, b and c. Do you have any tips on how to prevent/correct those mistakes?” These types of questions can open conversation.
      Take one concern at a time and ask before you have problems.

      1. Reba*

        This is great advice that mirrors techniques for dealing with recurring anxious thoughts in general: don’t tell yourself (or your child, spouse etc) “Oh that thing you’re worried about will never happen!” The chorus continues, “but what if it does, what if it does”… Instead, talk through what you would do in the event that Thing happened. What would be the worst case, how would you deal, who would you call.

        You don’t want to do an emotional download on your boss, but I definitely think a conversation about mistakes and corrections (so, *not* about insecurity and her freakish performance) would do you good!

    3. Susan K*

      I totally understand how intimidating it can be to follow in the footsteps of someone great, but there are also some upsides. First, you aren’t inheriting a bunch of problems that you have to clean up. Also, you know what good looks like — you should have a lot of examples of your manager’s work to help guide you on how you should be doing it. Finally, you want to learn from the best, right? That means you are lucky to have someone so competent still around to show you the ropes.

    4. a-no*

      I always treat them like my guru, learn from them as much as you possibly can. Learn how she did it and why – then if you need to make changes make them as it’s now your job. I always loved having bosses that were promoted from the position I worked in as it means you have the ultimate resource right beside you and they’re usually very happy to pass on the little nuggets of information they learned in the time in the position giving you a bit of a head start if you listen and apply those nuggets.
      Also frame it the other way around, if you were promoted and hired someone you liked – how would you treat them? How much grace would you have for them? You’d have significant patience for growing pains as you understood what she was going through and the learning curve – it’s the same thing your manager is likely thinking.

    5. OtterB*

      Can you try approaching the job with more of a growth mindset (cf Carol Dweck). Making a mistake doesn’t mean you have revealed yourself to be an ignorant screwup impostor. It means you have now learned something that will make you even better at your job and move you in the direction of being the superstar your boss became in the role.

    6. Turquoisecow*

      Sometimes, the “superstar” title is earned with a little bit of hindsight. An employee starts out as an average newbie and eventually gets good at their job, and when they leave their job, all anyone remembers is the part where they were awesome, not the beginning weeks or months where they struggled. Even if your boss spent less time struggling, there was still a period where she was new and not a superstar.

      As for positives, having a boss who actually has done your job can be a major asset. I’ve had bosses who knew no more than I did about how to do the job when I started – they knew what I was supposed to do, but no idea about the day to day processes that involved. And in a lot of cases, it was hard to figure out how to do those things, because there was no one else in my exact role. Leverage your boss’s actual experience as much as possible. I’m sure she doesn’t expect you to know everything immediately, and won’t think you’re stupid for asking – and it’s better to ask.

      I’ve never been a boss, but I have been a trainer, and sometimes I’ve had people act VERY apologetic for asking what they perceived to be stupid questions. My philosophy is that it’s better to ask then to do it wrong and then possibly need to spend more time fixing the error.

      1. Specialk9*

        Asking dumb questions on occasion is a superhero trait. The biggest freaking cluster of a project I ever dealt with was because the PM refused to act dumb questions – he didn’t want to let on that he didn’t know everything so he pretended he knew everything. After everything feel apart, I took over and asked the dumb question every time I wasn’t sure, and pulled it out (slightly mangled but reparable) from the garbage disposal.

        1. Turquoisecow*

          Oh, the “I don’t want anyone to know I don’t know everything type!” Those are the best. Like, dude, no one expects you to know everything. And even if you don’t admit it, we all know you don’t.

          Don’t be that guy.

    7. Jadelyn*

      It might help to remind yourself that she wouldn’t have hired you if she didn’t think you could do the job. So maybe that will help your confidence.

    8. Mission Accomplished*

      Even superstars make mistakes. What makes them great is how they handle it when they do. Can you treat this as a great opportunity to learn from your manager how best to handle things?

      1. Turquoisecow*

        Yes! Mistakes happen. Sometimes things happen that are beyond your control. Superstar doesn’t mean you have great luck, just that you can deal with stuff when it breaks. And some of that just comes with experience.

    9. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      In the jobs I hire for, there is a LOT to learn and it is a very steep learning curve. I look for enthusiasm to learn and grow, initiative, and strategic thinking. I know there are going to be mistakes. I remind my newer staff who are in your shoes that it took me many years to get the knowledge I have now, even if it sort of appears I ascended quickly.

    10. Trout 'Waver*

      As you point out, your manager is encouraging and helpful, because she remembers all the mistakes she made when she was new.

      You have a manager who understands the challenges of your work and supports you. You’re on the same trajectory she was on when she was in your spot. That means, with your continued effort, you will be at where she is now eventually. You’re ahead of the curve!

      1. Freya*

        And you’re having the same struggles she had. Not different ones. This actually bodes well if you think about it.

    11. EA in CA*

      She hired you, which is a huge compliment to how she views your ability to do the job you are hired to do. I have recruited for my replacement before and let me tell you, my standards were a bit higher than the other of the recruitment committee because I knew all aspects the role entailed, especially all the stuff that would be listed under “other duties as required”. So the fact you made it through the hiring process and was successful is a big achievement.

      It’s going to take you a good 6 months to feel comfortable and confident in your role. You are going to make mistakes. Hell, I am 10 years in to my career and I still make mistakes. It’s how you handle them that is really key. Flagging when you make a mistake and then proactively taking action to correct it is part of a highly valued work ethic/skill. And having that confidence will take some time. I still struggle with controlling my need for perfection and ensuring that I will never make a mistake. It comes from wanting to ever let the people who rely on me down. It seems you are in the same place. Mistakes will happen and most of the time, what I would consider 80% perfection is someone elses 100%.

      Just remind yourself, you cannot compare yourself to her. Her experiences are hers alone, you have to develop your own. It’s great to have someone understanding mentor you and help you succeed in the role. And it seems like she is really trying to support you as you learn the responsibilities. Having a conversation to outline clearly the expectations of milestones she wants to see you achieve as you learn the role may help. Anytime I enter a new role, I sit down with my manager/supervisor/trainer to establish clear and concise what is needed to be successful in the first 3 months, 6 months, year.

  4. Irene Adler*

    Lil help here, please!

    I’d like to assemble a list of behavioral interview questions. Can folks add a few to my list please?

    You know the kind:
    Tell me about a time when you had to work with someone with a difficult personality. How did you make this work?
    Tell me about a time when you had a disagreement with a co-worker.
    Tell me about a time when you could not make a deadline.
    You get the idea.

    Reason I’m requesting this:
    These are the questions I do poorly on during interviews. My brain has trouble conjuring up a situation to answer these questions. So, I’m left with nothing to say except I can’t recall anything (maybe there’s some level of anxiety at play here).
    (Yes, I know about the STAR method to answer these questions. But that is predicated on having a situation to talk about in the first place!)
    So, I’m building an extensive list to practice with. I know I can’t anticipate all possible questions. IJust hoping that practicing will help lessen my anxiety with these questions.
    Thank you so much for your help!

      1. fposte*

        And its complement, tell me about a time you took individual responsibility for a project.

      2. Hannah with an H*

        “There was this time that I was asked to organize a weekly sex club with two other people …”

    2. copier queen*

      Tell me about a time when you had to complete a large project. How did you stay organized? How did you meet deadlines?

      1. copier queen*

        Also, tell me about a time when a client/customer was dissatisfied. What steps did you take to assist them?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Why not tell the candidate BEFORE they come in for the interview what to expect? Not necessarily the exact questions but indicate that you will be asking for examples of stuff from previous jobs so they can start to think about what they would like to talk about.

      1. Irene Adler*

        Wonderful and sensible way to handle an interview! I was blindsided with an interview that consisted of 20-24 behavioral questions. This was the first interview. No questions about skills, interest in the position, or my background etc. Just “Tell me about a time when…”
        Needless to say, I failed the interview miserably.

        1. kmb*

          Is it unusual for interviews to be mainly behavioral? Of course some questions about interest in the position would make sense, but if I want to know about someone’s skills, I want to know how and when they used them.

          When you answer the more general questions, do specific examples come to mind while you’re thinking about it (Like if they asked you, “how are your Excel skills” and you were thinking “oh they’re very good, I can do these things”, in your mind you also have like “yeah I built that awesome report two years ago …”)? If that were the case, maybe you could re-structure your answers (and give the interviewer a heads up that this is the best way for you to think through this) where you take the core skill of the “tell me about a time when” (like teamwork or autonomy) and you start talking about your aptitude for it in general, which could give you a way to get to your memories about using that skill without trying to call the specific instances up cold, and then you can add “for example, two years ago I lead of team of cats to victory at a sheepdog trials by doing X, Y and Z things”

          I can totally understand it being aggravating if your memory just doesn’t work that way, but everyone wants concrete examples so that’s what they ask for, so maybe you can wire your answers to make it easier to remember those things.

      2. KitKat*

        I did this sometimes, especially for entry level jobs. It was actually really helpful because I could easily dismiss candidates who ummed their way through questions I told them ahead of time I would ask, instead of wondering if I should give them the benefit of the doubt. And good candidates had much better answers!

    4. Penny pen pen*

      Tell me about a time you received feedback on something you hadn’t realised you had done wrong. How did you respond?

      Tell me about a time you intentionally stepped out of your comfort zone to learn something new.

      Tell me about a time

    5. KitKat*

      Some that I’ve heard or ask myself:
      Tell me about a time when your manager gave you feedback that you didn’t agree with
      Tell me about a time when you had to learn a new skill/task very quickly
      Tell me about a time when you failed or felt you had made a huge mistake
      Tell me about something you’re proud of accomplishing
      Tell me about a time when you had to work with a diverse group of people
      Tell me about a time when you had to work with multiple internal/external stakeholders to get something done

      1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

        I’m curious – what is your goal with the first question?

        My answer would be. I smile, thank them for the feedback, and reflect on it more later.

        Honestly the real answer is, unless it’s something like do X instead of Y I ignore the feedback if I disagree. This is usually when a manager tells me something like “You were wrong to feel A”. Also if it’s something that is legally wrong like – do X instead of Y and Y is legally required I would bump it up. Not sure what that tells you about me as a worker though.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Re that last, it tells me that you are the type to keep an eye out for compliance issues on your own rather than blindly doing as you’re told, and you’re not afraid to push back if you see things getting into shady legal territory, which is good.

          If you just answered with the “thank them and reflect later” bit, I’d have follow-up questions for you about “Okay, once you reflected on it, what did you do?” and “What changed about how you handle [whatever issue you’ve described as the feedback thing] after that?” because I’m trying to get a sense of what actual concrete results came from giving you feedback.

          The point is to figure out if you’re going to be the kind of employee who gracefully accepts course-corrections and is willing to listen, or if you’re going to be that PITA who ignores feedback and does what you want regardless of what you’re told, so the manager ends up either having to just let you do what you want or having to fire you. Because I think we can all understand why the latter is a situation hiring managers would rather avoid.

          1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

            I would not answer honestly if you probed more. I may say, well it depends on the feedback. And then use the compliance example. But yeah if you are just trying to get me to say “I ignore feedback” I’m not going to admit to is. The answer is “I ignore feedback that trys to tell me how to feel about a situation” but an interview is not a place where we can dig down that nuanced and it not come across like I am bashing a supervisor.

            1. Jadelyn*

              Well, and that’s your choice – but I imagine many hiring managers/interviewers will be able to pick up on some things not being said, whether they get exactly what is going unsaid, or just that you’re being evasive.

              But in the end that’s just an inherent weakness in the interview system of making hiring decisions, regardless of what you ask – people can lie. It doesn’t make the questions themselves worthless, however.

              1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

                I disagree – the question phrasing really is important. And it’s not a lie to simply not bring up an item that you know will look bad without 20 minutes of context. I think Terra Firma’s 1st question below is a much better way to phrase the question if you are really wanting to understand how someone responds to feedback. In general it’s a never a good idea to put anyone on the defensive if you want the truth. I would ask for example: “Tell me about a time you lied to an employee about raises” that’s just not going to get honest or helpful results.

        2. KitKat*

          I usually only ask that when someone has answered previous questions about teamwork with multiple stories about how they disagreed with a coworker and they were right and the coworker was wrong. Basically if I’m getting the sense that the person can be adversarial and doesn’t like to reconsider their position, I will either ask that question or will straight up ask them to share about a time when they realized they were wrong about something.

        3. Queen of the File*

          I’m not KitKat, and I’m not a hiring manager, but if I asked a question like that I would probably want to get some clues about how a person responds to criticism or negative feedback (or even ‘do X instead of Y’ corrections). Depending on the scenario… did they ask for more information, or reflect on it, so they understood where the feedback was coming from? Did they examine the situation to re-evaluate their thinking or actions? Did they argue/defend? Did they ignore it? Do they seem disproportionately upset or angry retelling the story? Did they take steps to change? Why or why not?

          2. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

            To me – how you handle feedback is VERY DIFFERENT than – how did you handle a time you disagreed with feedback? There is a difference between – DIluted you need to improve X type feedback. Which I take and do vs “Diluted you shouldn’t be upset I left you locked outside in the cold two hours.” One feedback I ignore – the other I don’t – and your question makes me think of the second and not the former type situation.

      2. Anon for this*

        That question could be fairly uncomfortable for someone who’s coming out of a job where they’ve had a personality conflict with their manager, or if they’ve recently dealt with an abusive manager. Someone in that situation may have a difficult time coming up with an honest and good example of taking feedback well because they’re receiving even necessary feedback in an abusive way.

        2. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

          Yes exactly. I worked for a bully – I ignored a lot of her feedback. That doesn’t make me a stubborn never listens to feedback type – in fact I have recently been complimented at how great I am at taking feedback and how I am an asset to the team because I help garner support at a peer-to-peer level for unpopular changes. I like Terra Firma’s question below much better than the 1st of KitKats to delve into feedback.

          1. Anon for this*

            Yeah, I worked for someone who provided feedback that I would have been able to respond to comfortably had it not been for their aggressive delivery and random personal attacks thrown in the mix. It’s a situation that tricked me into thinking I was some entitled arrogant ass who couldn’t take criticism well because I’d lost perspective.

            Thinking of the interviews I had when looking for my next job, the behavioural questions were less about how I reacted to feedback, but more about how I handled not meeting a client’s or stakeholder’s expectations. Somehow that subtle difference was enough to keep me from tapping into experiences that would have have painted me in a negative light.

        3. Legal Beagle*

          Even a personality/culture mismatch can create this situation. I was once given feedback (by a boss I liked and respected) that I was being perceived as unfriendly for not saying individual “good mornings” to everyone in the office. (I was not a front desk admin or the greeter for the office in any way, and other people didn’t say good morning to me when they passed my office on their way in, so I didn’t even realize this was an expectation.) I thought it was ridiculous but I just said ok because it wasn’t worth arguing about, and then ignored it because I wasn’t going to stop in 10 separate offices every morning to interrupt people’s work for a basic greeting. Ended up leaving that job a few months later and my boss gave me a great reference, so who knows!

      3. Still personable*

        Tell me about a time when your manager gave you feedback that you didn’t agree with:

        I was told it seemed like I had “confidence problems” during an annual review by my outgoing, obnoxious boss because I’m “too shy”. First, I can be shy sometimes but shyness and introversion (what I actually am) are completely different. Introverted people are definitely NOT lacking confidence. I’m quiet at times but am also very chatty with colleagues and clients too. I carry myself professionally and politely but I am just quiet by nature. I definitely know how to perform when I need to. In fact, I spoke to a group of 300+ people months earlier at my department’s conference after only being prepped for about 15 minutes. I did great and my colleagues were really happy for me, especially since most said they would have been too anxious. And for someone who used to be close to tears in high school before presenting, I consider this to be one of my biggest accomplishments.

        The “lack of confidence” comment upset me at first because it reflected on what I’ve always been told as a kid for being too shy. Then, I reminded myself of all of the times I went into social situations with anxiety and I didn’t show it. People love to pick on “flaws” they think make someone else seem inferior. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being shy, quiet, introverted, etc. You just can’t let your doubts or anxiety consume your thoughts.

        I am slowly learning that you can’t take ever comment or criticism to heart because there will always be someone dissatisfied with you and they’ll try to use it to make you forget your strong qualities. : ) And what a boss says to me about MY being doesn’t change how I see myself. Someone’s subjective opinion is just their own reflection of their reality. It doesn’t mean anything unless you buy into it.

        1. Specialk9*

          Good for you! Presenting to 300 people with only minutes to prepare? Yeah you’re killing this.

          People who are not healthy or appropriate themselves are not generally good judges of others, but they seem uniquely inclined to speak up often and loudly so it can be hard to dismiss them.

    6. Terra Firma*

      Tell me about a time you received feedback on an area of development. What steps did you take to learn and improve?
      Tell me about a time you exceeded a target or goal.
      Describe a time you had to work with other members of your team or wider network to achieve a common goal.
      Give me an example of a time you’ve challenged yourself to be the very best at something.
      Describe a situation where you had to manage multiple priorities under tight timelines or circumstances.

      1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

        I like #1 so much better than the “Tell me a time you disagreed with feedback question”.

    7. Britt*

      I would suggest working on the anxiety part – because I think that could definitely be at play here. When I get an anxious moment in an interview – I know I “blank” and I loose all train of thought. And I know how much I hate it and worry about it happening.
      To work on it – I now bring a notepad into the interview. I quickly write down notes about the question so I can refer back to it if I’m talking too long, or get stuck. It’s also OK to ask for a few seconds to compose your thoughts. also! practice talking slower, so you have a bit more time to think about what you are saying… good luck!

    8. Jubilance*

      A Google search for common behavioral interview questions will also get you a lot of results which you can use to practice beforehand. I always do this before an interview, and I write out my answers in the STAR format and then practice them outloud.

      1. Leela*

        awesome, I bet you ace the interviews! I use to work in hiring and I can’t tell you how many meandering or non-answer answers I’d get.

        “tell me about a time you had a conflict at work.”
        “I never have”
        “……”
        etc.

        It is much appreciated when a candidate has something to answer with and especially in a format I can use easily. We never (at least I didn’t) ask these questions to catch people off guard; we were expecting that they’d either know these offhand or look up common interview questions

    9. Naptime Enthusiast*

      Tell me about a time you encountered a problem with a project, what was the issue and how did you resolve it?

      2. straws*

        Yes, we use a similar question: Tell me about a time you disagreed with how a project or process was being handled. How did it make you feel, and how did you handle the situation?

        1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

          I like this question, minus the how did you feel part . (Why do feelings matter? It’s actions that count?)

          In general I think it’s a bad move to put people on the defensive though – like tell me a time you disagreed with your boss or your bosses feedback. That’s just awkward phrasing and would feel like you are fishing me to bash my company/supervisor. If I was asked – tell about a time you disagreed with a process – I can answer that. Or tell me about a time you received critical feedback – I can answer that. Without feeling baited.

          1. aNon*

            Diluted – You come across kind of defensive in a lot of these responses. As someone who conducts interviews regularly, I do want to hear about how you felt during a disagreement. Because yes, actions count but I also want to hear if you were frustrated or upset in dealing with a coworker (which is normal) and if so, did your actions reflect your frustration or did you stay professional. And if I’m asking about a time you disagreed with your boss, I want to hear that you aren’t a yes-person who will agree with anything. I want to hear you will bring your own mind to the job and not just be a robot who agrees with everything. Especially if the boss says or does something stupid or unethical.

            All of these questions have been really good and I’m not sure why you are disagreeing with so many of them. Are you going to tell someone in an interview that their question is poorly phrased? Probably not. So it’s good to see the questions people are asking regardless of if you think it is well-phrased because you are still going to see them regularly.

            1. Phoenix Programmer*

              I think it’s important to remember that hiring is a two way street. It’s important to not phrase questions that will turn off the best candidates.

              For what it’s worth I would be turned off if an interviewer asked me how I felt after disagreeing with my boss too. It just puts weighted assumptions and emotions in a place where it does not belong in my opinion.

              I have participated in about 6 hiring decisions and we never asked any questions about feelings or boss disagreements. We do ask questions like “tell us a time you worked with a difficult coworker” and similar variations. We also ask for them to tell us a about a time they received critical feedback.

    11. Bostonian*

      Instead of (or in addition to) trying to anticipate any possible question that might come up and preparing/memorizing an answer to it (you pointed out yourself that you couldn’t possibly think of every potential question!), I strongly suggest also trying the “what color is your parachute” approach.

      Write out (yes, actually write this stuff out) details about your job, your skills, your achievements, with specific examples, and be really comfortable with them. Any question you can be potentially asked is going to draw from this information. This includes:

      -skills you have and have used in your current position (and past positions/volunteer/other work, if applicable)
      -for every skill, list 1-2 examples of how you use that skill in your current work
      -everything you like about your current job (the work, the environment, culture)
      -everything you dislike about your current job
      -how you like to be managed/what type of management allows you to thrive (think of specific managers you’ve had in the past and what has or has not worked)
      -your top 3 or so achievements in your current role (with details about process and any collaboration with others)
      -the top 3 or so challenges you’ve faced (again, with details of process and outcome)

      Good luck!

    12. MoreCheesePlease*

      One thing that’s helped me is taking the opposite approach to preparing: think of 3-4 projects that you are proud of and list out which “categories” they could be applied to.
      For example, if you were the lead llama groomer for the state llama competition and you did an outstanding job, you probably have examples of organizing groups, working with difficult people, quality control, project management, etc. Etc.
      I do try to have at least two different projects that I discuss during an interview but they don’t all have to be unique! I’ve said something like “oh yes, I have had to manage difficult stakeholders! In the example that I just mentioned about quality control (where we won best llama grooming team) there was a VP of alpaca grooming that wanted us to die the llamas pink. I did blah blah blah, which helped her feel better about my decision to stick with naturally colored llamas.

      1. nep*

        Similar approach helps me. I get a bit overwhelmed thinking of the number of possible questions. Instead I think of some good ‘stories’ — some work experiences that I can flesh out well and that can potentially address one or more questions or demonstrate one or more traits.
        (Now to get to the interview stage…)

        1. NK*

          This is the advice I always give too. Recall a handful of work stories that are rich with detail and complexity, and then based on the question, you can tell the angle of the story that applies.

        2. Betsy*

          That sounds like good advice. I tend to do the worst on behavioural questions. I didn’t do so well on one recently, because I struggled to think of a conflict I’d had in a research situation (until after the interview). I usually use a teaching situation when going for other roles, because there are generally a few difficult students to deal with, even if you have great classes overall.

          For government positions, I was actually given feedback that, while I had answered the behavioural questions clearly, the situations I’d presented really didn’t speak to my strengths as much as they could have.

      2. Tau*

        I also do this. I come up with a bunch of projects, events, experiences, etc. that I wouldn’t mind talking about in an interview and think show me in a good light. Then for behavioural questions, instead of trying to dig through my entire professional history (which is just not something that works for me) I just go through the different stories for the one that fits best. I try to have a bunch so I don’t have to use the same one twice, and try to have a diverse range of things to cover the various questions people ask. (E.g.: not just things that went flawlessly, because a lot of behavioural questions are specifically about conflict and failure.)

        1. Irene Adler*

          Bless you for writing this! This is exactly what I’m trying to accomplish. But, I needed questions -such as the ones posted- to assist me on thinking these up. I needed help with the conflict/failure ones. I tend to take the lesson and tuck the memory away for these sort of experiences.

      3. Windchime*

        Side note: I actually went to a horse grooming competition at the state level. My team won.

        Carry on.

    13. Future Analyst*

      Tell me about a time your manager asked you to do something you disagreed with (not unethical, just related to workflow or process), and how you handled that.

      1. Baggage claim*

        I was told to carry a heavy, 15 lb package of equipment (we do events) on a 6 hour cross country flight because in past years our packages had be lost by the post office en route to our conferences. The package would have been my carry-on “luggage” and it looked suspicious too (it was for a game show and had wires and buttons that obviously looked like it could be dangerous).

        So, I told my manager this made me uncomfortable because it looked suspicious and could possibly get me into unwanted issues with the TSA. I told my manager I’d ship it with a tracking number to our conference. My manager (has a habit of roping people into corners to make them uncomfortable) didn’t seem happy with this suggestion and tried to press me but I put my foot down as professionally and politely as possible. Maybe it made me not look like a team player but I refuse to risk my security, especially since flying can be nerve-racking even without these issues. I’m NOT responsible if the post office previously lost packages and I’m not a courier either. The package arrived to the venue perfectly fine too.

    14. paul*

      How do you react to stressful situations? Give us an example of a situation you found stressful and how you handled it.

      IDK how common that is, but it’s one I know we ask.

    15. A. D. Kay*

      Here’s one I got recently: Tell me about a time you had to make a big decision. The interviewers wanted me to walk through my decision-making process, etc.

    16. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

      What are 3 work values that you believe are important to have and please give an example where you demonstrated each of them

    17. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Tell me about a time when you had to work with people you did not agree with. What was the outcome?

      This next one may not be as helpful, but we ask it because we’re in legal services, so there’s high stakes but also a tendency toward perfectionism, and it helps us better understand the candidate:
      Would you prefer to be micromanaged, or to fail? Why?

      1. NewJobWendy*

        That’s a great question. I’m curious, but are you looking for a particular answer? (I know what my answer would be! :)

    18. Trout 'Waver*

      The 3 I always ask: (I’m in a STEM field)

      1. Tell me about a time you had to communicate a technical concept to a non-technical person.
      2. Tell me about a time you had to quickly shift priorities. How did you respond?
      3. Tell me about a time you had to make a decision without 100% confidence.

    20. NW Mossy*

      One I ask because it’s very germane to the roles I hire for: Tell me about a time when you had competing priorities and couldn’t get everything done in the expected turnaround time – how did you decide what to do or not do, and how did you communicate that to others?

      I look for people who recognize the need to prioritize effectively and who can show good judgment in what they choose to do, as well as people who can push back on requests that aren’t reasonable or appropriate. Someone who answers this question with “I just work longer to get it all done” is someone who’s going to flounder in an environment like ours where the supply of work to do is basically unending but it isn’t all equally valuable work.

    21. NewJobWendy*

      When I interview, I always ask: “Tell me about a time you solved a problem at work.”

      What I’m looking for in their answer is to demonstrate their ability to think about work, business processes, and taking initiative. One of the best answers I ever received was (summarized) “The company was paying for a shuttle bus to / from public transit stop and the office but not many people used it. I did a bunch of research and we discovered if we switched to Uber we’d save $6,000 a year.”

      The worst response I got was “In basic training someone collapsed during a run and we tried to save him but he died.”

      The first answer is great because the person gave a detailed answer that shows they pay attention (noticing not many people use the service) and they can generate ideas (asking to research alternatives) and see them through to a final solution (making a proposal to the appropriate decision maker).

      The worst answer was bad because handling an emergency that’s happening right in front of you is not always the same thing as problem solving, and it’s a little bit heavy for an interview. It was pretty hard to transition from “I watched someone die in front of me” to the next interview question.

      So give some thought to what you’re answer is actually communicating about you and about how you work / interact with people /shows off your skills etc.

      Practicing is really great! Also, before interviews (like the day before or a few hours before) I always write myself some notes so if I’m IN the interview and draw a blank, I can look at my list. Just cliff’s notes like:

      Problem Solving – big excel project X, array formulas
      Leadership – organizing monthly training
      Saving money – implemented annual vendor review process

      Just a few key situations or accomplishments to prevent brain freeze.

    23. Q*

      Tell me about a time you were in a stressful situation and how you handled it.
      Tell me about a time you were having difficulties with a group you were working with.

    24. Ann Furthermore*

      Have you ever been asked to do something you felt was unethical? If so, how did you handle it?

      Tell me about a time when you disagreed with a co-worker (or boss). How did you handle it?

    25. Brett*

      I like picking specific technologies out of their resume that they are looking for, and probe for their understanding of the pros and cons of that technology. I couple this with their ability to speak out and persuade on technical decisions.
      “On this project, you choose to use this specific technology. Tell me about how that choice was made and what you considered in making that choice. How did you/your team convince other stakeholders that this was the correct choice?”
      Or “In this project, you moved from an existing technology to a new technology. Tell me why the decision was made to make that transition and what you considered in choosing the new technology to move to. How did you/your team convince stakeholders that you needed to use the effort to move from an established technology?”

      Another one I like is, “In job x, it sounds like you worked in a team. How did you divide up tasks and responsibilities in that team? What was your most common role in the team?” … “How did your team make decisions? What role did you most frequently take on in team decision making?” … “Tell me about how your team interfaced with stakeholders, whether internal to your organization or external clients? What interactions did you handle in your team’s relationship to outside teams?”

    26. designbot*

      How do you handle it when a client insists you do something you are sure is a bad idea?

    27. Totally Minnie*

      I think everyone else has listed some really great questions, but I wanted to chime in to say that if you can’t think of an answer to the question, it’s okay to answer in a hypothetical. So if you’re asked “Tell us about a time when a customer you were working with got upset,” and you don’t have a story to tell, don’t just say “that’s never happened to me before” as the entirety of your answer.

      The point of these kinds of questions is for the interviewer to get an idea of what kind of employee you will be, and how you will react in some relatively common circumstances. So it’s absolutely okay if you say “I can’t think of a time when that has happened, but based on my experience in similar situations, I would respond by (describe how you think you would deal with that situation).” That way, at least the interviewer has gained some solid information about you as a person that might translate to what you would be like as an employee.

    29. Kiwi*

      We’re interviewing people next week, so this is very timely!

      I think this kind of question can be split into a few super-questions:
      – how you deal with people – teamwork, difficult coworkers, difficult clients
      – how you deal with difficult situations – ethically-questionable tasks, screw-ups, decisions you disagree with, failing projects
      – how you deal with pressure – conflicting priorities, impossible deadlines, being put on the spot
      – how you deal with new situations
      – how you solve problems

      Maybe you’d find it helpful to list examples of projects or jobs for each of these categories.

    30. Irene Adler*

      Wow everyone! I’m overwhelmed.
      My heartfelt thanks for all the responses! AND, for including the thought processes I could follow to help answer these behavioral questions.

      I’m copying down everything you folks wrote.

  5. Leaving*

    Today is my last day at a job I disliked. I start my new job on Monday. I thought I would feel… happier?

    How long did it take you to shake off the stress from your old (awful) job and relax into your new (better) one?

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah. Almost a year for me. And I still had a bad attack of nerves just today when I drove past that office on my way to lunch. I had to remind myself that is in the past and it doesn’t help me to dwell on it any longer. But yeah, it takes awhile to recover from a stressful work situation.

    2. Katarina*

      About 6 months before I felt like a human again. A bit longer to get my confidence back.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      It took me 6-8 months to really feel like myself again. Good luck! Congrats on the new job!

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It took a very long time for me, and I’m still working on it, to be honest. I had four months of unemployment during which I did a lot of “refreshing”, but once I started my new job, I realized I still had a long way to go. My prior job was stressful and killed my self-esteem. Some days I still get those twinges, but I’ve been here over a year and the “omg I’m going to be fired” feelings are much less frequent.

      In other words, YMMV. :) I kind of wish you had given yourself some time off to recharge, but that isn’t feasible for everyone. Just take in all of the information you can, take a lot of deep breaths, and know that the first few weeks are going to be exhausting but you will be fine!

        1. Green Goose*

          I think since you are starting a new job right away there may be stressors about that (new jobs are always a bit stressful at the start) that are overlapping with the feelings from your current job and might be blurring together.

          I had a seasonal job that I hated for about five months and I was planning on working there for six months but I had to get out of there. That relief was pretty immediate because I had a month off in between gigs, but as long as your new job is better, I bet that once you are more familiar with the new role and company you’ll notice that there is no more residual stress from Awful Job.

          Good luck!

          2. Betsy*

            +1 I’m in a similar situation and this helps me to understand it too. I hadn’t really taken into account that starting a new job can be stressful, and I need to move countries too.

      2. Tax Nerd*

        (I am finally watching The Wire on HBO GO, and can I just say that I love this user name now that I get it?)

    5. Seal*

      My first job out of college started out well but within a few years became an absolute cesspool of incompetent management and rampant bullying, much of which was aimed at me. Both because this was a job that supported my outside artistic activities and because I was too demoralized to job hunt due to the ongoing bullying, I wound up sticking it out far longer than I should have – almost 13 years. When I finally got up the nerve to leave – without another job lined up, mind you – I felt a combination of relief and panic. After all, awful though it was, there was some warped comfort in the know versus the unknown. I actually cried all the way out to my car on my last day.

      I was fortunate enough to be able to take the entire summer off, which helped immensely. Then I took a temp job that turned out to be awful for different reasons that my previous job, but it gave me perspective. Still, it wasn’t until I got another permanent job almost a year later in the same field that I have originally left that I was truly able to shake off the stress from my old job. Again, perspective.

      1. Leaving*

        I totally hear you about the known vs unknown! Funny how the brain works. Relief and panic… yeah.

    6. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      I’d also say 6-8 months. Previous boss was an irrational micromanager and it took a long time for me to recalibrate my settings so I wasn’t bothering my team lead to tell her I was going to the bathroom, and stop walking on eggshells when I had legitimate concerns to bring up to my manager.

      I feel you – I also was not as excited as I’d expected to be when I escaped OldJob. There’s was just this weird unease, waiting for the other shoe to drop and reveal that the new place was just as bad as the old place – or maybe even worse! It took much longer than I thought to trust what I was seeing – that my new company was a much better fit and that my new manager was one of the most outstanding supervisors I’ve ever had the privilege to work for.

      1. DC*

        The whole “other shoe” thing is exactly what I’m waiting for right now, when I start my new job in a week. It’s nice to hear that sometimes it’s just the bleed-over stress from the old place.

        1. Future Analyst*

          Yes– this a good thing to remember, and to acknowledge the feeling without deciding it must be true.

    8. crying at work is fun!*

      I had a really horrible job during the recession that I left pretty quickly. It still took at least a year to get over the workPTSD. (Ask A Manager really helped me re-align some of my worldview to understand just how horrible and not-okay things were; I’d blamed myself for a lot of it.)

    9. Vivien*

      A month working for the family business and then I was hired as a temp to replace a on-leave employee. They decided to leave the position entirely so I was hired on after 6 months. The stress was mostly gone within that time because of the giant step down. I went from being the director to a receptionist. I still have little tics left over from the previous job (certain notification sounds make my stomach drop, for instance.) I have since been given responsibilities of about the same caliber now (I am still working the front desk, but now I’m in charge of several large aspects of the business), and I do not have the same stress reactions as before.

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        OMG, I worked at a job once where the phone ringing sent me into a panic because it was usually someone calling to chew me out. :(

    10. anonym*

      I’m at 2+ years removed from the toxic job, and honestly, I still can’t even find the motivation to start looking for a new job because I’m so dispirited from the whole experience.

    11. Leaving*

      Oh wow, that was not was I was expecting. I’ll have to re-calibrate my expectations. :/ I just thought I would start feeling better right away.

      1. Not a Morning Person*

        It really depends on so many factors! You will feel better and it may be shorter or longer than what others are advising based on their personal experiences. It may also be that there are things that feel better right away and others that take more time. Look for those better things during your first days and weeks and then make sure to remind yourself of them when you have some of that old job-related PTSD. Also, learning a new role and a new company may have the the impact of sometimes wishing you were back in the role you were doing because it was a role and a place you knew…let that fool you! Even when the old job was horrible, change can be uncomfortable and have us longing for the former life only because it is what we knew and got used to. Do what you can to take care of yourself during your first few weeks and months. Eat well, get enough sleep, spend time with people who love and support you. That helps. Good luck and congratulations on your new job!

          1. Leaving*

            Thank you! That’s great advice. The “better the devil you know” attitude is what kept me here for so long.

      2. NewJobWendy*

        Don’t forget that starting a new job is stressful too, even if it’s good stress! So “better” can be a relative term? I changed jobs about 6 months ago and am still dealing with some residual stress and other emotional stuff, but my new job allows me to get more sleep so I ALSO feel so much better physically and am therefore much able to cope with the new / different stress in my life. So you might find you DO feel better fairly immediately, but that may not mean “not stressed.”

        1. Leaving*

          Good point! I know it takes ~6 months to settle in to a new job, but I didn’t think of it in terms of stress.

    12. SparklingStars*

      A full year – but things were REALLY bad and I had been there for 6+ years. Hopefully it will be easier for you!

    13. DC*

      This post is really timely, and something I’ve been worried about all week. Thanks for asking so others can see it, and know you’re not alone!

      1. Leaving*

        I’m glad it helped you too! I’ve noticed a lot of recent posts have been timely for me. It’s great to have this community. :)

    14. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      1.5 years, but I was working at a toxic job and had all sorts of post-work head-f***ed-up-ness. For a job I simply disliked, about 3-6 months before I felt comprehensively happier.

      If the lack of happiness lingers, it may make sense to try out counseling? I’m kind of a therapy evangelist —I think everyone needs a safe, “neutral” place to share their feelings, regardless of any underlying mental health “problem.” But I also find that in periods of stress/transition, it can help to have someone who can listen and help you reframe or identify what may be causing that lingering stress.

      1. Leaving*

        I haven’t had any luck with therapy. I’ve tried multiple counselors over the years but I always seem to feel worse, not better.

        1. Specialk9*

          I also am a therapy advocate. But it took me 5 therapists to find one I clicked with.

          1. Windchime*

            Same here, I’ve had therapists who were too clinical, one who was too cavalier, and some that let me flounder for months with no progress. The one that helped me the most was the one who listened to me and said, “Yeah, your reaction is totally normal for someone in that situation and I agree that you should try to find a different job.” She validated me, let me know that my reactions were appropriate, and helped me formulate a game plan. She was supremely helpful and I only saw her 5 or 6 times.

    15. Bea*

      A week. After a week at my new job I realized all the differences and stress gradually slipped away after that.

      You’re busy learning and creating a new work life. You will be okay.

      I’m sorry you’re not happier but understand. I danced out the door my last day but I was dreaming of dancing on the grave of that shhthole.

      1. Leaving*

        Haha! I thought I felt that way, but I’m feeling surprisingly anxious about leaving. I did not expect to!

    16. ginkgo*

      Solidarity – it’s my last day at a job I hate, too (though I was laid off and am leaving without anything else lined up). This definitely falls under “good problems to have,” but I have a phone interview on Monday and a multi-hour in-person interview on Wednesday for two great companies I’d love to work for, and I just feel too burnt out! This company kept me around for five weeks after the layoff decision was made and I’m literally just coming in and playing games on my phone at this point. My attitude right now is terrible and I don’t want that to come through in my interviews. I wish I had just one week to veg and recover.

      Anyway, please do something nice for yourself tonight and have a restful weekend! (I’m getting pizza and cheap beer and watching Office Space… see, bad attitude :P)

      1. Leaving*

        Good luck with your interviews! I know what you mean about feeling too burnt out to interview well.

        Yeah I was hoping to do something fun this weekend. I’m disappointed because my husband has to work all weekend. Maybe that’s why I’m feeling kinda bummed… I was hoping we’d celebrate together. Since we’re in the grip of a massive snowstorm, I like your idea of staying in, eating pizza and watching shows :)

      2. Betsy*

        Solidarity to you and OP too, gingko. It’s very hard to drum up motivation after a job you really don’t like. I haven’t left yet, but there’s a pile of work I need to get to and I just can’t really bring myself to do it right now. Hopefully our motivation all comes rushing back once we’re in jobs we like again!

    17. Journal it*

      Congrats on the new job!

      I have a habit of internalizing stressful things so it takes me a long time to shake off bad experiences at work. So, I keep a journal and write down my problems/fears about a particular day or event, and then delete the page from my computer after a few days once I’ve processed it emotionally. Once I vent, I don’t allow myself to relive every single feeling. In a new job setting, I am usually so consumed with adjusting the new experience that I barely give myself time to worry about the times things went terribly on an old job.

    18. Fortitude Jones*

      Immediately, but that was because I left a position that was customer facing during hurricane season and moved into one with no customer service facet on my end at all. I was on cloud nine and still get up happy to go to work four months later because I know I won’t have to put up with the extreme BS I dealt with most of last year.

    19. Betsy*

      I was just offered a new job. I’m quite surprised that I’m feeling a bit anxious and strange, because the job is everything I wanted and I get to move back to my previous city. It also pays more.

      I’m nervous waiting on the official offer from HR, because that’s been taking a long time. I’m also nervous in case I won’t be good at it or will find it too stressful. I need to resign from my current position too and I’m worried about that.

      I’ve been annoyed at myself for not just being overjoyed, but maybe it just takes a few weeks to settle down, feel relaxed, feel confident and trust that this will probably be a better environment for you.

      I’ve recently had people who know I might leave, but don’t know that I will leave, trying to sell me on my current job too, so it’s been disconcerting. Even though I’ve had a horrible time, and the new job will probably allow me to advance much further in my career, I have this critical part of me that is saying, ‘You should have stuck it out. Maybe staying longer would have looked much better on your resume. Most other people seem happy enough with it- what’s wrong with you?’

      1. Leaving*

        Ugh, yeah. After something thinking, I realized that some of my regret/anxiety was because people were being nicer to me since they knew I was leaving. They had a goodbye party for me, and my toxic coworker brought me two pieces of cake and cleaned up after, and even got everyone to sing “For she’s a jolly good fellow” (super embarrassing). Peopled talked to me more in my last week, and generally I just felt more like a human being.

  6. Paranoid*

    When you start a new job, when is it okay to take a sick day or PTO day? How do you handle snarky comments from co-workers when you return?

    I started my job 10 months ago and used 2 sick days because I was really sick- brought a doctor’s note back and everything, yet they didn’t believe that I was sick. When I walked away from my desk, one said, “Wow, she really was sick.” I didn’t lie and play hooky or anything. I don’t get it. They don’t do it to other people.

    Yesterday I left 2 hours early for a tax appointment in the city and the next day I received the cold shoulder and attitude because I left. I have the time and the manager said it was okay, so what is the problem?

    My coworker that I work closely with took off 2 days the previous week.

    Is it because I’m new? Is this something to bring up with my boss or should I let it go?

    1. Karo*

      I’m interested to hear the replies on this one. I wouldn’t have thought that 10 months was particularly new anymore, and that once you’re past a probationary period you can use your time off however you want.

      4. paul*

        yeah, the issue here isn’t that you’re new I don’t think. It’s that they kinda suck.

        1. Irene Adler*

          Yep!

          C’mon, everyone gets sick now and then. Two sick days per 10 months is reasonable. AND you brought in a doc’s note to verify. I’d say you did more than necessary so there’s no reason for the coworkers to act as they did.
          Maybe next time, bring in whatever contagious illness you have, and share with these co-workers. It would serve ’em right

          1. Liane*

            Yes. And stay just long enough to make sure all your work is covered. By going to every co-irker individually, standing over them and breathing on them as you ask repeatedly if each one “has everything you need from me, and can you handle ABC. Oh I already got someone to do that, so cover DEF Oh what else will you need from me because it clearly caused you major problems when I was out sick for 2 days last year and I totally don’t want to put you or anyone else to any trouble. Also use your (unwashed) hands to lean on their desks, use their phones/computers to check that you left OOO email/vmail/IM messages, and check the shared printer/copier to make sure you didn’t leave the tray empty or forget your printouts or originals.
            Then go back home.
            (I don’t know how serious Irene Adler is, but I am being totally facetious.)

      5. anonymousME*

        Yep.

        Is it one particular coworker driving all of this? If that person is a bully, I have found it more successful to respond by calmly and immediately directing questions back to the person.

        So for example, if you walking away and you overhear coworker saying in a rude voice, “I guess she really was sick,” you turn back around and say, “you sound like you didn’t believe I was sick. Is that what you meant to say?” in a curious, non-confrontational voice. (Approach it like an a uninvolved nthropologist, meeting the Passive Aggressive Cubicle tribe for the first time.)

        Then just wait. Silence is your friend here as you wait for a response – in my experience, bullies hate to be called on their bullying and back down quickly once they are on a position of acknowledging their own behavior. If the person actually is able to respond to you, give that response full consideration (again, you’re an anthropologist) but address not just the words being said but the body posture and tone.

        Ignoring the problem completely and pretending you didn’t hear anyone make a remark in the first place just tends to make bullies stronger, although often “rising above” and ignoring certain issues is a better tactic for most workplace situations.

      6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yup. Unless your absence had a material, stressful and unanticipated impact on their work (which frankly, the manager should have assisted with by reassigning or reprioritizing work), they are nosy jackholes. Even if it affected their work, they shouldn’t be jerks about it—everyone has to cover for everyone at some point.

        Is it just one coworker? I couldn’t tell from your post, but it sounded like you had one coworker who’s lead bully/instigator, and then others who are also just dour jerks. I’m sorry you’re working with people who behave badly :(

      8. Samiratou*

        Agreed.

        10 months? This isn’t a new job anymore. “New job”, for the purposes of not wanting to take sick or PTO time is 3, maybe 6 months most places.

        I have a feeling it doesn’t matter if you’re there 10 months or 10 years, your coworkers will still be jerks.

      9. K.*

        Yep. 10 months is not new. Taking two days off in 10 months should be a complete non-issue. Your coworkers are jerks.

    3. ThatGirl*

      Ten months is WAY more than enough time.

      Like, ideally I think you shouldn’t use PTO (unless pre-arranged) or sick time (unless truly really miserably sick) within the first three months… but after that… ridiculous.

      1. Anon for this*

        You may feel it’s not okay for you to do, but please don’t impose that thinking on your colleagues. Life still happens in the first 90 days of a job.

        1. GG Two shoes*

          Yeah I have a chronic condition and I waited 2 months, but I really paid for it. I should have taken time sooner but I was surrounded by never-sicks and thought they would look down on me. However, I now realize that without my health, I can’t work, period. It’s better to be upfront and explain the situation to my boss and coworkers so they have a better understanding of my situation.

        2. ThatGirl*

          I did say ideally. That was a very general, best-case-scenario, no prior planned vacations statement. I would never judge someone for being sick and taking PTO or a sick day, nor taking a preplanned vacation. In fact, my own husband had to call in sick on the second week of a new job once, because he got a stomach bug. I’m not unreasonable, I’m not a manager, and I’m not judging anyone. :)

          1. Anon for this*

            Well, I’m glad you’re not judging anyone. It’s hard to assume that people aren’t when you’ve dealt with problems over using PTO and are really over trusting anyone to mind their own business, sadly.

            1. ThatGirl*

              If I (or anyone) had said something actively jerky, I’d certainly say it’s fair to call me out on it. But I don’t think I did… and I would have no way of knowing yours/anyone’s personal PTO problems.

              I can only speak from my own experience, I changed jobs last summer, and was asked to try not to use PTO or sick time in the first 90 days if possible. Nobody would have hassled me if I’d truly been sick or if I’d had a pre-planned trip. It was just a general guideline and I don’t think it was an unreasonable one. It doesn’t excuse busybodies, it doesn’t give others the right to judge or snark.

              1. Bleeborp*

                I knew exactly what you meant. Now that I’m well established in my job and have ample sick time and have no other obligations on a particular day, I may take a sick day for something relatively minor that I COULD work through. When it’s the first 3 months of a new job, I wouldn’t take that time off because I know it wouldn’t look good and it wouldn’t have any really negative effects on my own health. Obviously, employers should understand that illness can occur (and often does) at inconvenient times and shouldn’t pressure anyone to come in sick!

              2. Fortitude Jones*

                And see, I’m almost four months in to a new job, and they asked me to take PTO a month in during our slow period (first week of January) so I wouldn’t have to try and schedule it during our busy season (March fiscal year-end and proposal bonanza). Our PTO is use it or lose it, my boss wanted me to use my pro-rated time, so I took her up on it and it was lovely (seriously, I had NOTHING to do in January).

        3. only acting normal*

          I once got food poisoning in my first *week*. It was… colourful, they really wouldn’t have wanted me at my desk. They were fine about it though, because life happens.

        4. Triumphant Fox*

          I took a week off in my first month and a half – I was pretty much comatose with the flu. My manager was like “don’t touch us with a ten foot pole – I do not want to see you until you are well again” and I really, really appreciate it. It’s gone a long way toward making me feel welcome.

    4. Zip Silver*

      10 months? Your coworker is just a jerk and you should ignore it. 2 days in 10 months is nothing.

    5. CM*

      I’m not sure if there is anything you can really do about their attitude. Did your coworkers need to cover for you while you were out? I can see them being a little miffed if you left early and there was a pile of work to do, but the attitude over sick days really has no justification since you did not know you would be out. How is your relationship with your boss? If it is good then you can ask her about the office culture around time off.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah this mostly reminded me of when I worked a job where I had some front desk/basic office admin responsibilities. When I was out my coworkers had to cover some of my tasks like answer the phone and sort the mail. One of them was particularly awful about it (she’d moved up from my position and thought she was too important to do coverage even though it was in her job description) — if I was sick for more than one day at a time she’d send me an email demanding to know how much longer I thought I’d be out (she also once or twice tried to insinuate that I should be responsible for hiring a temp when I was out, which I just ignored because that was ridiculous). I would either ignore her or just say “Well I’m definitely not in tomorrow but I’ll let you know as soon as possible when I feel better.”

        That particular coworker thought she was my manager even though she wasn’t and just continued to try to escalate her attempts to “manage” me until I finally told our actual manager what was happening and she told coworker to back off. So it might not be a bad idea to just mention casually to your boss that some people seem a little irritated by you taking time off and you are wondering if there’s some part of the process you are missing (is it a thing in your office to cc everyone in your department when you’re going to be out?) That way if this is your coworkers being jerks you’ve alerted your boss without accusing anyone of anything, and if there *is* some part of the “system” for PTO you aren’t aware of you can figure that out, too.

        1. Justme, The OG*

          I do not understand people like your coworker. If a department is short staffed, particularly in a position you are capable of doing, you suck it up and help out. In my old department, I was promoted from the front desk position. One day, all of them called in sick. Our supervisor, someone else promoted out, and myself all womaned the desks for the day.

          I do agree that maybe the OP should alert her boss to it, too.

    6. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

      Sounds like your coworkers a BusyBody McJerkjerks. I would ignore their snide comments and instead focus on your performance. In every job I’ve ever had it’s fine to ask for time off to be sick. Especially if you apologize for the impact and are otherwise reliable. Yeesh.

    7. MuseumChick*

      I think you just have some obnoxious co-workers! I had to take a day off 3 months into my new job because I had my first ever migraine (I cannot express how awful I felt). No one questioned me or made comments. They trusted I was an adult who know when and how to take time off if needed.

    8. Muriel Heslop*

      In some places that is just the culture. In my last school, people weirdly judged each other for any time off while still taking time off themselves.

      Your co-worker sounds like a jerk. Maybe you could ask the co-worker with whom you are most friendly what the deal is with people’s attitudes?

    9. Fiennes*

      The first one—I don’t know, it was so early in your tenure that they might’ve been overly skeptical. The comments still seem rude, but maybe the last person in the position abused time off.

      But leaving a couple hours early, with permission, after 10 months in? That’s not something reasonable people should be weird about. Honestly, I’d just flat out say something like, “you do realize I had permission to go, right?” If they’re still snide, keep asking the obvious questions until they either apologize or realize they’re being made to look ridiculous. To me this feels like an attempt to put you down/undermine you a little, and standing up for yourself in a calm but very direct way might end it.

      Me, I’m the kind of temper who would say something like, “so, should I have had my doctor do my CT scan here? Where should we put the machine? Oh, good, there’s a spare outlet.” But I no longer work in offices, which is probably for the best.

      1. TheCupcakeCounter*

        I was also wondering if the LW’s predecessor abused the system or the position was vacant for a long time so they couldn’t use any PTO for a while in order to cover that role and are still in burnout mode so anytime LW takes some PTO they freak.
        Or they could just be busybody asshats.

    10. Hellanon*

      Maybe your coworkers are suffering from a subtle form of Stockholm Syndrome, and see your ability to take days off as a sign that something is wrong with them? My experience is that people who are told something they have been doing is wrong will sometimes fight like cornered honey badgers to protect the belief that they are right…

      1. Earthwalker*

        This. I’ve known coworkers who felt intimidated about taking sick days or vacation, or felt guilty when they did, to take it out on others in just this way. It’s all about them, not about OP.

    11. Adele*

      First, realize you are not doing anything untoward or out of the ordinary. I assume you have accrued the PTO and you have the right to use it or you have made arrangements to make up the time or take it without pay. Your manager has approved it.

      Next time someone says or does something snarky, stop, look directly at them, and ask, “Is there a problem?” The person will probably say “No,” to which you can reply, “Good” and move on. If they do tell you, you can deal with the issue: I was ill; I had pre-approved PTO; and Did my time off affect you negatively? Is there something we can do to make it easier when someone takes time off?

      Then, unless they say something truly egregious, just let it go. It is their problem.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      It could be that they do this to every new person.

      Is there a cohort who seems to be in your corner? Maybe you can ask her for the backstory on why you are seeing this.

    13. Half-Caf Latte*

      Yeah, your coworkers are jerks.

      I started a new job 6 weeks ago, and had to take 2.5 days (thanks, norovirus!)

      Folks either said nothing or asked if I was feeling better when I returned.

      1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

        Oh God, that happened to me once! I think I had been there maybe 4 weeks, if that? My boss and coworkers THANKED ME for staying home! (I tried to go in but didn’t even have the energy to get dressed, let alone actually get to the office.)

    14. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      No, it’s not because you’re new, it’s because they’re all banana crackers nuts. No sane employer expects you to go ten months without needing some kind of time off.

    15. Naptime Enthusiast*

      I used my first sick day after 3 months when I had a stomach bug, nobody commented and honestly very few people noticed I wasn’t in outside of my cubemates and direct mentor. Of course this varies on your work, but honestly I think your coworkers suck.

    16. Annie Moose*

      I agree with everyone else. That’s definitely enough time to take a couple sick days off, in my book!!

      When I was about six months in to my current job, I got terrible food poisoning (as in, was lying on the floor of the single-person bathroom at work in between bouts of throwing up until I managed to pull it together enough to drive home) and was out for three and a half days. (had to leave work early on a Thursday, was out Friday, was sick all weekend, then was out Monday and Tuesday of the next week!) Nobody said a word, except to be glad I was feeling better once I came back to work.

      Sicknesses happen–reasonable coworkers and reasonable managers are not going to judge you for taking just two days off!

    17. Jadelyn*

      …I’d mention it to your boss, just so she’s aware, because this is some ridiculous mean girls BS. When you said “new job” I was picturing someone 2 weeks in who takes several days off, but ten MONTHS in? Good lord. That’s WAY past the “it’s too soon to take PTO” point. If you’ve got the time, it’s yours to use, and as long as your manager has approved your PTO, your coworkers have no business judging you for it.

      I mean, even if you were new, 2 sick days and leaving a couple hours early for an appointment is supremely normal, I wouldn’t even think twice about it. Your coworkers are jerks.

    18. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Just to play Devil’s Advocate, maybe the “Wow, she was really sick” was “OMG, she was so sick she went to the doctor and got a note, poor thing!” not, “Oh, guess I shouldn’t have judged.” (It sounds more likely your coworkers suck, but it could be this too.)

      1. Alton*

        Yeah, it sounds like there’s a larger pattern here of people looking like jerks, but if it was just that one comment, I think it depends on tone. Sometimes people say stuff like that as an equivalent of “Wow, you look/sound horrible!” Not always super tactful, necessarily, but not always an expression of doubt. I had people make “Wow, I guess you weren’t faking!” comments once when I returned to work when I was still recovering from laryngitis, but the tone was clearly light-hearted and I didn’t think they meant it in a bad way.

        But these people sound like they might be jerks.

      2. A*

        That’s a good point. Sounds like a pattern of disrespectful attitude in this particular case, but the statement by itself could go either way.

        I sometimes phrase things that can be interpreted the opposite way that I intended. For instance, I was talking about Almond Joys with two other coworkers. They both said they don’t like them. I like them but it doesn’t seem like anyone else does, so I said, “Wow, nobody likes them.” It sounds worse over text, but I meant it like, “Man, no one else seems to like them.”

    19. Master Bean Counter*

      You work with a self-made martyr. Just accept that they are going to have some snide comment every time you take time off. This person has probably come into work with the flu at some point and almost never takes a day off, until it’s their vacation time. Which they think they totally deserve because they work so hard and don’t miss a day the rest of the year.
      Anyway the best way to fight this is to not react at all. Snide remark, just smile and move on. If you get asked why you were out answer with, “I had a thing.” Thing being anything from a cold to needing to do your taxes.

    20. Montresaur*

      It does sound like your coworkers are suspicious and judgmental to a ridiculous degree. Also, 10 months is long enough to have established your reputation in a job, and taking a sick day plus a couple of hours is not a big deal at all.

      For comparison: I took a temp job several years ago, during a company’s peak busy season. At the end of my first week, one of my coworkers (who helped a lot with my training, so we spent most of our shifts working together) mentioned she was feeling ill. I woke up Saturday with the flu and ended up missing half of my second week on the job! I was so nervous that I’d look flaky, and that people would be annoyed at having to pick up my slack, but everyone was understanding when I returned. Didn’t even need a doctor’s note.

    21. Lady Boss*

      I absolutely took a sick day about a month into a new job because I was sick. Those people are just being assholes.

    22. Bea*

      What? We can use PTO after 90 days. NOBODY CARES one way or another and everyone uses their time whenever they please.

      These people aren’t snarky because you’re new. You found yourself in a hellhole who offers PTO but acts as though it’s a sin to use it. That’s a thing, I’ve dealt with it. They suck. Unless you are not staying caught up and burdening them with your away time they can kick rocks

    23. rez123*

      You can take sick day any point when you are sick. It doesn’t matter how long you’ve been there. If you are sick, you are sick. As for PTO, I think it’s ok to use them whenever your contrat states that it is ok to use them. if contract doesn’t say anything then i would wait a few months. At 10 month youa re not new. You co-workers are just jerks.

    24. Anon for this*

      Here’s the thing, you can technically use your accrued PTO however you like as long as your manager approves, but some people are going to have a lot of trouble with people who use PTO in a way that doesn’t look like the “normal” ways that people in that environment use PTO. It attracts attention and people get weird about it, even if it doesn’t impact the flow of the work. It can put a target on your back.

      1. Paranoid*

        Plus I’m single with no kids- most of them have families and can use the “my kid is sick/has off/etc.” while I can’t.

        1. Anon for this*

          Yeah, I know that feeling. I’m a hardcore perfectionist and live and breathe work because I feel like I have to overcompensate for ever taking time off and that if I don’t, I’m an entitled millennial.

          But everyone else can get sick and take time off for appointments, no bloody problem at all.

    25. EA in CA*

      It reminds of me of a previous job where I and any junior staff had the same experiences. All those types of reactions came from the office martyrs, the two people who always came in early, worked late, never took any leave or time off unless was made mandatory to them. They were toxic to any new employee to didn’t align to what they thought was right: being at your job 110% of the time so you can dedicate yourself to the cause like them was considered a virtue and anything less was deplorably in their eyes.

      They left shortly after the company was sold and new management came in with their fancy new ideas on flex days and work from home. They couldn’t take the stress of not being allowed to work 60+ hours a week and to have a work life balance that they both quit within a week of each other.

    26. Super B*

      Yea this is ridiculous. Ignore your co-workers, laugh if they give you an attitude. You’ve been in the job 10 months, not 10 days (and even if it had only been 10 days, if you were sick you were sick! and no place should require a doctor notice btw!)

    27. Someone else*

      You work with childish people.
      The only circumstance where this type of attitude might be understandable (note I’m saying understandable, not reasonable) is if there were some conspicuously suspicious behaviour on your part. Like…if you’d previously talked about really wanting to go to some event that was over particular dates, and then suddenly were sick on those days. Then they’d have some fact-based reason not to take your sickness at face value.
      But absent anything like that, your coworkers suck.

    28. MissDisplaced*

      This isn’t really normal behavior. 10 months is a fairly long time to be on the job and 2 sick days when really sick is not at all out of the norm (especially considering flu season this winter). Nor is leaving a bit early or coming in late (like 1-2 hours) for a scheduled appointment once or twice in that amount of time. Usually a doctor note is not required for 2 sick days either!
      Typically, that’s not done until you’re off a week or more for a more serious illness.
      But if it’s your snarky coworkers and not your manager giving you grief, I’d ignore them or tell them to “Go pound sand!”

      I’ve been on my new job for 5 months. I have 1 vacation day scheduled in my 6th month and 5 days scheduled off in my 8th month. NORMAL. I haven’t been out sick at all though.

    29. A.M.*

      That’s crazy. 10 months isn’t new anymore. You can take a sick day when you are sick and need it! But if you can hold out, I would say wait for PTO for 3 months.

  7. Neosmom*

    I’m a female EA. A male member of our customer service team passed my workstation yesterday and commented, “Pretty in pink!” I almost didn’t respond. But then I did reply, “And now, time to be productive in pink.” Saying that felt so good!

      1. Specialk9*

        I was presenting at a professional conference, at a panel for promoting women in the male dominated field. So it was especially fun for a man to tell me he’d stand up to let me get to an open seat in another session because I was so pretty.

        Oh thanks. I was unaware it was 1960, dude. Just sigh.

    5. Free Meerkats*

      Coworker I haven’t seen in a couple of months commented to me Wednesday, “You look great in pink!”

      She’s a she and was commenting on my current hair and beard color.

      3. Liane*

        Where’s the +1 button? And can I damage my mouse or Alison’s server by clicking it a few hundred times in one spot?

        2. Polar Bear don't care*

          Oh! I clicked hoping to be impressed but instead I’m totally delighted! I’m down with a wicked cold and you made my day. You look terrific!!

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      While your response was awesome, what he said was ridiculously inappropriate. I think you know that, but I just wanted you to know you aren’t imagining things—you should not have to deal with that.

    7. strawberries and raspberries*

      Oh my God my hero. I probably would have thought to say, “Vaguely insecure and kind of weatherbeaten in [whatever color he was wearing]!” like eight hours later, when I was at home, after being annoyed about it all day.

    8. Mobuy*

      Why be offended? He was trying to be nice. I don’t get why so many people are looking for ways to be offended.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Um, because it was a highly gendered and minimizing “compliment?” The general rule is, if you wouldn’t say it to a male employee, don’t say it to a female employee.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Also, people should be judged at work for their work, not their looks. People commenting on your looks at work is creepy, especially if it’s a man calling a woman “pretty” at work.

        2. Mobuy*

          No, it wasn’t. I mean, yes, we mostly don’t call men “pretty,” but we do compliment their looks. So what? It’s small talk. It greases the wheels of interactions. He meant to be nice. Nowhere does Neosmom mention that her coworker doesn’t respect her work. Maybe there is context that I’m missing, but if someone commented positively on what I was wearing, I’d be flattered, not looking for an EEOC complaint. (That was hyperbole. It should be obvious, but this thread…).

          1. The New Wanderer*

            I meant literally, if you wouldn’t say “pretty in pink” to a male employee, don’t say it to a female employee. Same category of non-compliment/unnecessary comment as anything in the “Smile!” category where the recipient is almost exclusively female.

            FWIW, I have been flattered by compliments on something I’m wearing. I’ve also been creeped out by “compliments” about how I’m wearing it. There is a difference. Good compliments at work don’t reflect a specific gender’s qualities.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Why are you offended? This person was just trying to relay her very real experience. I don’t know why so many people are looking for ways to be offended.

        3. Mobuy*

          I’m not offended at all. I’m confused. She got a compliment. I compliment male coworkers all the time. “Nice shirt.” “You look great.” Not at all gendered. Stop thinking everyone who compliments you is a sexist. They are not.

          1. London Calling*

            I’ve told my (male (CFO) I like his tie and are they his college colours? and I’ve complimented him on a suit he wears sometimes. But I am a woman, if that makes a difference.

      3. Elizabeth H.*

        I tend to agree with the sentiment, BUT I understand finding the remark not great because it’s not especially professional to be told you look “pretty” when you’re at work. I think that’s what the reaction is because of. My guess is that something like “Great pink sweater!” or “That color looks nice on you” wouldn’t have been irksome. Although with the latter (color looks nice on you) I would find it to be a little weird/overpersonal comment unless it was from a coworker I was very friendly with.

      4. Kiwi*

        It’s the connotations of the word “pretty”. People tend to say it to young girls, not adult women, so the subtext is that you’re a child, not a skilled, competent adult. Similar problem with “cute”. Like someone said below, if your male CEO was wearing a shirt and tie that looked great on him, would you tell him he looked cute? No, you’d say “great tie”.

        And yes, connotations matter. A huge amount of the meaning in conversation comes from the connotations.

        1. soon 2be former fed*

          I have been called pretty many times as an adult woman. I think cute is more for children. Doesn’t bother me in the least.

    9. not so sweet*

      Was it Wear Pink to Stand Up to Bullying day where you are, yesterday? It was here.

  8. Social Work Questions*

    Questions for social workers!
    Background: I currently work as a case manager at a nonprofit agency that employs social workers in a lot of different capacities. I want to get my MSW fairly soon, and a lot of programs offer the option to do your first internship with your current employer, as long as it’s in a different capacity.

    Has anyone done this before? How long had you been working in your position? How did you approach the conversation? Did you get paid a different rate or not all for the hours you were interning? What did you do for your second year?

    Thank you!

    1. Sunshine Brite*

      In my state, MN, they can’t do the same job as interning. The employer can be the same but not the position. It’s to encourage branching out and gaining additional clinical experiences. That’s something to consider too when thinking about choosing an internal internship.

    2. strawberries and raspberries*

      Me me me!

      This will largely depend on the state you live in and the school you go to. My school did what you’re describing, in which my first year of social work school I went to classes while still working in my full-time role, and then in my second year I designed my own field assignment that encompassed “new learning” at my organization. I would still be working my full-time job, but I had to devote a minimum of 14 hours per week to the “new learning” component (with agency approval and field supervision and all of that stuff). Then as it happened, I got promoted and moved to a new site halfway through my second year, and the school accepted my promotion and transfer as “new learning” (since it was a totally new contract and my first management role).

      The upside was that I was still making full-time money at my regular job, so unlike some of my full-time student classmates, I didn’t have that struggle. The downside is that I had so. Much. Work. And while I was doing this, I had really no oversight due to infrastructure changes at the agency, so I relied heavily on my field supervisor and field adviser at school to get me through the difficult parts. For entrance into this particular program my school required at least two years of continued employment at one agency.

      1. Social Work Questions*

        This is so helpful, thank you! When you decided to go back to school, was your supervisor receptive to being flexible with you and your position for a couple years or did it take some convincing? And if you don’t mind answering, what school did you go to?

        1. strawberries and raspberries*

          I went to Hunter!

          My supervisor and upper management were fine with it (we’re not that large of an organization, so they know me and they know I could handle the workload- some classmates who worked for larger city agencies ran into some conflict).

    3. harp+dash*

      I did this, but it was my third semester and not my first. I was working in child welfare at the time, which has unending possibilities of work to do. I didn’t get paid extra, just did additional work hours. Choosing to do a practicum at the current place of employment was pretty common at my agency, just for convenience sake. I wouldn’t say it was the BEST learning experience I could have possibly had, but it wasn’t bad and I did learn some new things. Doing an MSW while working full time is really difficult, but I’m glad I finished it.

    4. banana&tanger*

      Look at nursing. School sucks but case management type jobs are plentiful with better pay. I got similarly convinced and am so glad.

    5. Kuododi*

      Somewhat related… when I was working on my LMFT credentials the state where I was at the time allowed candidates to use 50 percent of clinical hours required from my current place of employment. (State mental health clinic counselor). The rest I had to have from an approved MFT clinical internship. It was part of my post graduate degree program so I didn’t have to go hunting for my internship. I would suggest keeping a dialogue with your advisor. She/He would be able to direct you to options within the community for internship, congruent with your training goals to help you when the time is right for internship in your particular program.

  9. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

    Our director’s administrative assistant is driving me and all the other departments’ leaders crazy. He is definitely pulling “Assistant Director” vs “Assistant to the Director” type shenanigans. Let’s call him Ryan.
    Some examples:
    Manager tells their staff to skip an all staff meeting for higher priority work. Goes to tell Ryan not to send staff the meeting quiz – Ryan refuses stating they will have to do it anyway.
    I email director asking for guidance on a project – Ryan responds to do A, B, and C. Turns out all of those are incorrect and he never got the information from director. Just took it upon himself to answer.
    Director asks you to send Ryan and email asking to set up a meeting with himself and the VP. You send along the details stating that the director asked you to set this meeting up with him and VP within x timeframe – Ryan asks if the meeting is really needed? Is it actually a priority? Does VP really need to be there? …. I just told you all I know Ryan!
    You decline a meeting Ryan set up for you and your direct reports and ask him to cancel. He doesn’t cancel the meeting – wasting all the direct reports time who show up while you are at another meeting.
    You send an agenda item for the upcoming meeting and Ryan questions it: is this the best mode to communicate this item? Can’t you just meet one-on-one with everyone instead? If you are just sending this because of A it’s not necessary. No Ryan! There is a lot of context you are not privy to.
    I’ve tried talking to him directly about the business impact of all this pushback as well as getting involved too deeply in some projects and he just gets completely defensive and shuts the conversation down with statements like “I am not one of those assistants who says yes to everything”. I’ve tried talking to our director about it – but he is very hands off on all things he deems “inter-personal” issues and just directs to go back. Ryan also gaslights a bit – stating you are the one getting to personally hurt by him just doing his job and doing it well.
    Anyone have advice? Is this just what a good Admin Assistant does and I’ve only worked with mediocre ones (who only ask questions pertinent to scheduling) or is Ryan really getting too involved?

    1. Michelle (An Admin)*

      Ryan is getting to involved. Good admins do not do these type of things and question every single thing you ask of them. Ryan sucks.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      Ryan is a terrible admin. I was a terrible admin too, but not like this! (I was immature and disorganized not argumentative and disruptive.) This seems like some weird power-play gaslight shenanigans and I am sorry your director is being a hands-off about it. Can you cc your director on some of these communications with Ryan? Maybe if he sees it for himself he can take a firmer hand.

      Good luck!

      1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

        I have – and when I go to talk about it with director later he states that he saw there was a lot of back and forth and just ignored it. When I mention that the push back caused business delays he goes back to the “interpersonal”. Also Ryan shares an open vent with the director so every time I have tried to have conversations like this he finds a reason to burst in then will text me saying I already told you X! Don’t bother director about it.

        1. Natalie*

          When that happens, would you feel comfortable firmly telling him to butt out (in more office appropriate language)?

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      A bunch of you need to push back with your director about this, saying that it’s not “interpersonal” but a business problem that needs to be fixed.

      1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

        The one time I tried this, I was young and stupid, it went so so so wrong. I read your post on it recently though and see where I went wrong before. I will try this next. See if it’s just me and the one other person or all 6 of us who feel the same way and go from there.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      He doesn’t say yes to everything? Does he say yes to ANYTHING. It sounds like his go-to is NO.

      Don’t do this/ Start telling him the opposite of what ever you want. “Ryan, do NOT cancel tomorrow’s 2 o’clock, okay?”/ Do not do this.

      This guy is contrary just for the sake of being contrary. Someone, ideally a group of someones, needs to clue his boss.

    5. Adele*

      Yup, Ryan sucks.

      Next time you get a message from Ryan questioning/redirecting something in which the Director is involved, forward it on to the Director asking for clarification. He needs to see what Ryan is doing.

      If only someone could compile clips of Dwight Shrute pulling this Assistant Director bullshit and show it at the next leadership meeting.

      1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

        I’ll be honest – I worry Ryan would just delete it. He has read/delete/write on behalf of access to the directors inbox.

        1. Marshmellin*

          Wow. Sounds to me like the director doesn’t care, then. If Ryan has read/delete/write access, then he’s essentially privy to the same information as the director. Is *is* an interpersonal issue, but not the way the director means…

        2. Hey Nonnie*

          I would definitely (and in person) bring up the time when you emailed Director for guidance, and Ryan answered incorrectly on Director’s behalf, causing delays/other problems and how that impacts your ability to effectively do your job.

          You’ve got a number of examples like that, you just need to lead with how this is hampering business. If Director tries to blow it off as “interpersonal,” you and your group will have to redirect him to how it’s causing harm to the work you’re supposed to be doing.

      1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

        All staff meetings are mandatory. If you do not sign the attendance sheet you have to answer quiz questions that Ryan sent out proving you read the minutes. Not my favorite thing but it’s directors prerogative. Also considering that not understanding the staff meeting discussion can lead to someone getting injured I get it.

        1. Natalie*

          Uh, maybe it’s time to look for a different job? This one sounds… kinda messed up.

          I can BS my way through a quiz pretty fast (especially if it’s open book, or open agenda rather), but I wouldn’t retain any of it. I’m not a workplace safety expert but I rather doubt this is considered an effective technique. It sounds like more of Ryan’s weird power complex.

          1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

            This one is legitimately from the director and not Ryan. I agree though – ctr-F makes it easy to answer these questions. I see it more as a concrete – you were told to do x. You didn’t – there is no “I didn’t know excuse”. Agree though that for safety if probably doesn’t make a huge difference. We have other processes for education around these. Staff meetings are just a reinforcement venue for all processes.

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              This is insane. No wonder no one is curbing Ryan—the Director is also a petty tyrant!

              1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

                Meh. This is certainly odd, but it’s not one of many weird issues impacting work. It’s one quirk. Director really is supportive otherwise. Just very hands off anything deemed interpersonal. Director has personally supported me getting raises, bonuses, etc. and had to fight HR for it. He fights for other staff privileges. I’m not gonna begrudge him one odd request you know? I think it also potentially relevant that almost all our staff are mobile or remote.

    7. Trig*

      I’m sorry, did you say “meeting quiz”?! Like, they make you do a quiz after all-hands to see if you were paying attention?! I’m inclined to say your company sucks in addition to Ryan! (Though I know that’s just one detail and not a means to judge your whole company. But yeeech.)

      1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

        My company rocks! I love working here. The quizzes are just for people who did not attend. It’s a way to make sure that they understand the processes. A little odd … but people can die if these processes are not followed so I get it.

        1. anonagain*

          So what you’re saying is:
          The quizzes are for people who miss the meetings.
          The quizzes are important since they test knowledge of processes where mistakes can result in death.

          Why is Ryan’s refusal to let some employees get out of taking the quiz because they were busy (this is why you have the quizzes, right?) a problem? It sounds like he’s doing what he is supposed to do in this case.

          1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

            No I explained better up above on the other comment about the quizzes. For true safety issues we have a different process so that’s a bad example and kind of a non-sequiter. I blame my sleep deprivation for conflating that.

            I don’t want to get to industry specific – but as an example. Let’s say you have someone who handles nuclear waste, disposes nuclear waste, and handles invoices for nuclear waste. If the invoice processer misses the meeting … it’s not the end of the world. Also their manager told them not to go – because they are going to review the relevant pieces with them. Having Ryan step in and be like “NO! You take the quiz about nuclear waste handling anyway ” is the problem. Also it undercuts the manager who said – don’t worry about this I will catch you up.

    8. The Tin Man*

      Ryan sounds terrible. And the director does too, being “very hands off on all things he deems ‘inter-personal’ issues “.

      But really, it is Ryan’s job to schedule the meeting and not to dictate the agenda or question if it is really necessary.

    9. MuseumChick*

      Sadly this sounds like something that won’t change until its more uncomfortable for the director. How comfortable do you feel pushing back on the “this is an inter personal issue” argument? Would you be able to say something like “I really disagree. This is a business issue, the work my team and I perform has been severally negatively impacted by Ryan’s behavior. Speaking directly with Ryan has had no effect. I’m very worried about not just the only going effect on a day to day business but also the morale of my team members. Can you give me an concrete idea on how this will be handled going forward?”

      1. Ama*

        I’d focus on the requests that Ryan is directly ignoring. You asked him to cancel meetings and he refused. You were following the director’s request to work with Ryan to set up a meeting and he wouldn’t give you any possible times. Print out emails if you need to.

        I worked with someone like this once — her boss also stayed completely out of it and it wasn’t until a group of department heads called a meeting with the boss to lay out all of the times they’d asked Jane to do X and she’d done Y instead and then refused to correct it that he realized Jane wasn’t just “a little prickly” she was literally refusing to do large chunk of her job. I can’t remember whether she was fired or just reassigned but she definitely didn’t have the role she had up to that point (to much rejoicing from the staff).

    10. Jadelyn*

      No, this is not a good assistant. A good assistant *supports* the work of others, rather than impeding it just to make themselves feel powerful.

      Has anyone talked to Ryan’s manager, the VP? In particular about the things that have real business impact, like being told wrong information about a project because Ryan decided to answer things for himself without consulting his boss. The VP is the one who really needs to know what their assistant is doing to everyone, because what Ryan does reflects on the VP he’s acting as a proxy for.

      Your director is also being a weak manager by labeling this as “interpersonal” and refusing to get involved. How clear has everyone been with the director about the specific business impact of Ryan’s behavior?

    11. Hilary*

      I have no advice and that sucks that the Director dismisses it—can you figure out a way to reframe it as strictly operational, even if it’s a bit absurd?

      But mostly I’m deeply curious about what kind of workplace has meeting quizzes. That sounds like something out of a first year lecture to try to make sure students showed up…

    12. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Ryan is the definition of a terrible admin. This is not what good admins do. He’s way too personally involved, and he needs to stop trying to make executive decisions. It’s having a business impact on your work. Bring it back up to your director, with others, and emphasize the business impact.

      Also, I am side-eyeing your director’s refusal to address “interpersonal” issues. Don’t let him mischaracterize what’s happening as a personality clash. It’s not a personality clash—it’s Ryan’s fundamental failure to fulfill core duties, and his failure to do so is creating waste, redundancy, and the misappropriation of business resources (most importantly, you and your staff’s time, which is finite).

      If your Director continues to be frustrating on this point, you may also want to set up processes so that Ryan doesn’t get to see any of the booking, etc. (i.e., create your own shadow AA). But of course don’t do that if it’s going to get you in trouble with the Director.

      1. Super B*

        Agreed and I just can’t believe the director either. To give Ryan full access to his email and permission to respond and delete messages? WTH? that’s not how those things work… not even the CEOs I’ve worked with give their EAs that much power. No wonder why Ryan is confused about his own role… having that power over the directors communications and possibly some confidential info has gone up to his head big time.

    14. TL -*

      Can you stop arguing with him and just reiterate your request?

      Email: Ryan, Director has asked for a meeting on Tuesday. Please schedule.
      Ryan: What? Why? Necessary?
      You: Please confirm when the meeting is set up.

      Then (especially for meetings with director) if it’s not scheduled, you can follow up in person – “Hi, Director, did you decide the meeting wasn’t necessary after all? I asked Ryan to schedule twice and I never got a confirmation; did your priorities change?”

      If it’s the back and forth that’s freaking out your boss, I’d stop engaging if at all possible. Just send your requests through and talk to Director when they aren’t followed.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        Alternatively, what would happen if you just dropped your end of the rope and let it be someone else’s problem (preferably someone higher up). So if Ryan balks at scheduling a meeting, you go back to the VP or your manager and tell them “Ryan wasn’t willing to schedule the meeting” and let them handle it. Or if Ryan is deleting emails, don’t follow up and let things be difficult for the Director.

        It’s very common for an assistant to have access to the director’s email, and to be able to respond to some types of emails, so if the director is okay with the level of control Ryan has over his communication, there’s not much you can do to change it.

  10. Susan K*

    We all know it’s illegal to discriminate against women for pregnancy, but what about discriminating against men who are expecting (because of a pregnant wife or perhaps a planned adoption)?

    I have a coworker, Jim, whose wife is pregnant. Our manager offered him a temporary promotion to team lead for an important project, but then rescinded the offer before Jim had a chance to decide, on the basis that the manager assumed that Jim won’t want to take on extra responsibilities and extra hours when he has a new baby at home. Now, that may be true, but shouldn’t it be Jim’s decision?

    1. Parenthetically*

      What the hell? This seems like exactly the same discriminatory mindset to me. I’ll be interested to see an expert response on this.

    2. Amber T*

      Ooh that’s a tricky one. I have a feeling that falls under “probably isn’t illegal but should be and is definitely icky.” (Not a laywer.)

      1. C.*

        Not a lawyer but a law student who just took a course on this, and that’s sort of my feeling too? Because the Pregnancy Discrimination Act only covers pregnancy/childbirth itself and I don’t think anything else in Title VII covers having kids. I wonder if manager thought they were doing Jim a favor? Do other people in the office have kids and has the manager acted this way before?

    3. Kristin D*

      In California, employees are protected on the basis of their association with members of a protected class. So, in California, Jim would be protected. However, I’m not sure if federal law would protect this, or other state law.

    5. OtterB*

      It should definitely be Jim’s decision, unless perhaps he’s already put in for some significant amount of parental leave that the temporary lead position would conflict with.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Even then, though, if we’re talking about protected leave like FMLA or California’s CFRA, it would not be legal to count that against him when considering promotion opportunities since that would be an adverse action based on using protected leave (or at least this is my understanding of it), and the whole point of protected leave is that people can’t suffer consequences for using it. That’s what makes it protected.

        1. Natalie*

          It sounds like this is a temporary promotion though. It’s perfectly acceptable to not given someone a project because they are going to be on leave *during* the project.

    6. The Tin Man*

      That is suuper unethical but, as others said, I’m not sure about the legality. Perhaps Jim really wanted the promotion because it would be a pay rise and he could help better support his growing family! Or maybe he didn’t, but that is his call!

    7. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

      Being a pregnant woman is only protected by sex discrimination since it’s a discrimination that can only impact women. I’m not sure how easy it would be to prove sex discrimination for denying Jim a promotion. I do think Jim should talk to HR though to get feedback.

      1. Natalie*

        That’s incorrect, it’s a separate law. (Or more specifically, a separate amendment to the Civil Rights Act.) Link in reply

          1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

            Wow! Thanks for educating me. I had it totally wrong. NPR had a segment on this yesterday and was wrong too!

            1. Natalie*

              I think it gets confusing because related things like parenthood or family status (married/unmarried for example) aren’t explicitly protected but can be an aspect of sex discrimination.

    8. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Ugh, this is awful. Unfortunately, state law and not the federal Pregnancy Discrimination Act will let you know if he’s covered. In California, for example, this is almost certainly an example of unlawful discrimination. The same could be true in the 22 or so other states that recognize discrimination on the basis of familial relationships (which often cover parenthood/pregnancy).

      All that said, Jim might be able to state a claim for third-party discrimination under Title VII under a sex discrimination theory, but it would be a real stretch.

    9. Triple Anon*

      I think that would fall under “family status”, which is on the list of things you can’t discrimminate against in some states.

      *I am not a lawyer. This is just a guess.

  11. Entry level*

    The post – and comments! – about overqualified candidates annoyed me SO MUCH. I got to the post late and couldn’t be bothered to reply to every comment but it grated so much that so many people are okay with overqualified people in entry-level roles. So now in addition to how difficult it is to just get ANY experience at all people genuinely at entry level have to compete with these overqualified people for entry-level roles – as if getting started wasn’t difficult enough as it is!

    1. Parenthetically*

      You know, I sympathize. I remember what it was like trying to get into teaching right out of grad school. But overqualified applicants could just as easily say, “As if getting back into my field isn’t hard enough, I have to compete against folks who are fresh out of school, young, happy to be in an entry level role, have way more energy, don’t feel like they’re embarrassing themselves applying for an entry level position,” or whatever! It’s frustrating for a lot of folks in a lot of fields, and I don’t think it’s helpful to get into a competition over who has it worse. There’s enough crappiness to go around.

    2. Argh!*

      That’s what it’s like to live in an economy that has been screwing people for at least a decade. Those overqualified people thought they would retire at 55 and now they can’t retire until age 67. A lot have been laid off from good-paying jobs in “reorganization” or “downsizing.” What are they supposed to do? Move to cabins in the woods?

        1. Argh!*

          You shouldn’t be. They are going to retire in their 70s if they live that long, and live in poverty.

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Ok, I think I understand — you’re speaking about folks who were close to their retirement when the crash happened. Yes, that’s a uniquely awful situation.

            It’s also a (crappy) generational change that expected retirement age has pushed so far back for young people. I’m Gen X so I’m sandwiched between these two generations, and I don’t know anyone (other than the rare wealthy person) who expects to retire before their late 60s at best. It’s not worse for someone who is currently 55 to work until they’re 72 than it is for someone who is currently 25 to have to work that long.

            1. Argh!*

              If you have 50 years to plan for your retirement, you’re ahead of someone whose retirement income will be based on the last years of their work life, which was cut by 1/3 to 1/2 when they were 50 and whose retirement fund lost half its value in 2008 and has barely recovered in the past 10 years.

      3. Manders*

        Agreed. It’s one of those big structural problems that can’t really be fixed on the individual level–people need to eat and pay rent, and we all make the best choices based on the opportunities we have available.

        (I do totally feel you on the frustration of being stuck outside the job market needing experience to get experience. That was me a few years ago. It sucked, I hated it, but I don’t blame the more qualified people who also needed those jobs I applied for.)

        1. Argh!*

          If you’re 20-something, you can live with parents or with roommates to cut costs. If you’re 50-something your parents are dead and you don’t want to live with 20-something roommates.

          1. Manders*

            That’s a generalization I’m not comfortable making–plenty of 20-somethings can’t rely on their parents’ support, and plenty of 50-somethings have living parents or will happily live with roommates. You can’t always guess a person’s life circumstances by eyeballing them.

            Plus, If a hiring manager is basing decisions on who seems the most desperate for the job, something’s really wrong with that company. They’re not looking for the best candidate, they’re looking for someone who’s more likely to put up with mistreatment or outright shadiness.

          2. JamieS*

            50 somethings have also had the advantage of having had more time to build a nest egg to not need to live with roommates/parents. If they do need to cut costs, they also have the option of living with more age-appropriate roommates if they don’t want to live with 20-somethings.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Did you see the post about how mid-career folks need those opportunities too, because they’ve never quite gotten on their feet due to the recession that began in 2008?

      It’s just hard, for everyone. Employers want to hire the best person for the job — which might be someone “overqualified,” or might be someone who is just starting out. But the “overqualified” people aren’t your enemy; they’re applying for the same jobs as you for the same reasons: they need them.

      1. Natalie*

        But the “overqualified” people aren’t your enemy;

        Indeed. Resist the urge to be a crab in a bucket, pulling your fellows down anytime they start climbing out.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          The crabs in a bucket analogy doesn’t really work in the case of limited opportunities.

          1. Natalie*

            I’m not sure how you figure. If there are limited opportunities, then there is a larger structural problem that isn’t going to be solved by crapping in your fellow workers because they have the temerity to seek out a job.

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              If only 1 crab can make it out of the bucket, then game theory suggests that pulling other crabs down is an optimal strategy.

              1. ginkgo*

                This is the most nihilistic thing I’ve read all day and I can’t stop laughing. I think I’m broken.

                1. Dankar*

                  Haha. Same! But then, nihilistic humor is pretty much where I live these days. I guess I’m broken, too?

              2. Natalie*

                Oh for goodness sake. As it’s an analogy and not a literal bucket, I doubt the OP actually has the ability to pull any other crabs down (that is, keep other more experienced people from getting hired ahead of her). But she sure can work herself into bitterness about other people’s jobs; I’m not sure what game theory says about that.

              3. President Porpoise*

                The last time I put crabs in a bucket, they pulled off each other’s legs. This may be a better strategy.

                2. hermit crab*

                  I used to work with crustaceans (in a zoo setting) and we had one poor crab with some kind of mineral deficiency… so occasionally he would pull his OWN leg off. And eat it!

                  Really, really do not recommend that as an employment strategy :)

              4. Argh!*

                How are older workers pulling younger workers down? It’s the economy doing that, not the people who got laid off in the prime of their career.

              5. Trout 'Waver*

                I’m sensing some hostility here. I think I’ll see my way out of this particular bucket.

              6. Observer*

                Not really true, even according to game theory. Because it STILL doesn’t get you going up. And bedsides, this really is NOT a situation where only either newbies or “overqualified” people can get jobs.

                And, in any case, the idea of actually blaming people for trying to get by and claiming that it’s not ok is not rational in any context, even applying game theory.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        And many times they are not considered, so there is that, too. There are many ways that the world of work is NOT kind and in some ways wildly unfair. I have thought this for a long, long time. The popularity of Alison’s blog here is proof.

        I can remember 30 plus years ago, bosses saying that I had to take a cut in hours because I was only a student and did not really need money. (Thanks for deciding that for me, Boss.) Fast forward about ten years ago I got told that I had to take a cut in hours because tuition bills are more important that homeowner bills. (More important to whom? Could you find a different way of framing that?)

        It’s really important to remember that we all need to eat and have a roof over our heads.
        The next thing to remember is companies are burning people out at a steady clip. We will always have talented people who have had to chose health over level of employment. This is sad, because it’s a waste of human talent.

      3. Luna*

        Yes, and a lot of us who were impacted by the recession have HAD to go from one entry level job to another, because no higher options were available to us. Last year was the first time ever that I finally landed a non-entry level job, and I graduated in 2006 and have a Master’s degree! It took me three years of applying to get the offer, because I was repeatedly told that I now had too much work experience for half the jobs, and not enough experience for the other half. It sucks for everyone.

        2. Argh!*

          If it makes you feel better, as a younger baby boomer, I had to wait a ridiculously long time to move up because the older baby boomers were clogging up the veins of the organizations I applied to.

        3. Elizabeth West*

          I’m in this place now. Too experienced and educated for low-level jobs; shut out of higher-level ones. It sucks.
          And you know what? Constantly working low-level, lower-paid jobs means that when I do finally take Social Security, I won’t get much. It’s based on your wages.

          1. Argh!*

            Yup. I got a job paying 2/3 of my previous job after I got laid off. I thought it would be just for a few years, but it’s been 10 years.

      4. SallytooShort*

        Many of them don’t “need” them they just think it will be a nice break from stressful “real” jobs for a couple of years. Lots of comments reflecting that, as well. With absolutely no reflection on how elitist that is.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Well, we could argue forever about what constitutes a “need,” but that’s not helpful.

          In any case, I don’t see that as elitist (with the exception of the “real job” language, which sucks — all jobs are real). It’s true that some jobs are more stressful than others, either across the board or for individual people (e.g., I’m not stressed out by tight deadlines, but I’m very stressed out by ambiguity — others may have the opposite reaction.

          1. SallytooShort*

            You don’t see how dozens and dozens of comments of people who are educated and have had experience complaining about how unfair it is to be passed over for positions for equally qualified *for that role* people can be elitist?

            1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              I genuinely don’t know what you’re referring to — I don’t see those comments here or on the original thread.

              But I’ll agree that it’s frustrating for both sets of people. Frustrating for folks without experience to never have the chance to get that experience because “overqualified” candidates are being hired; and frustrating for someone who brings extra experience to be rejected in favor of someone who has objectively less experience and skill than them.

              (I reject the idea of “equally qualified” on its face. This comes up in a lot of other situations — folks wonder about how they are supposed to pick between two “equally qualified” candidates, etc. But, as a hiring manager, I’ve never encountered “equally qualified” candidates. Candidates A and B might have the same years of experience and type of education, but Candidate A worked in a real estate office and Candidate B worked in a law office; Candidate A managed a project that got derailed by a leadership transition and developed deeper skill in “managing up,” while Candidate B managed a project that had its funding cut midway through and developed deeper skill in budgeting, etc. etc. etc.)

            2. scorpysuit coryphefuss arterius*

              Just because someone is educated and has experience does not mean that the job market in their particular area of expertise is actually viable or will anyway support their ability to sustain their existence in capitalist society.

              1. scorpysuit coryphefuss arterius*

                *their need to sustain their existence in capitalist society.

        2. Natalie*

          Is it more or less elitist than presuming that stress isn’t an actual negative thing that people might need to get away from?

          1. SallytooShort*

            There are lots of ways to mitigate stress and switch jobs in an industry without monopolizing jobs better off for people who need them.

            1. Clare*

              But there are not always lots of ways to switch jobs. It’s not that easy. That’s why people at all levels end up in these types of situations (needing to take a job that they might technically be over qualified for ).

            2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              I don’t really know how to respond to your idea about “monopolizing” jobs. Do you really believe that Person A should decline a job that they want and that wants to hire them because an unidentified, theoretical Person B may need the job more than them?

              How on earth do you propose people make those assessments? Should I not work at all because my family could survive with my husband’s income only? Should someone who is trained as massage therapist refuse to take a job waiting tables? If someone with a law degree is unemployed, should they turn down the nonprofit program management job they are offered because a JD isn’t a requirement for the role?

              I hear how frustrated you are, and I’m sorry about that. But other people, doing their thing, trying to make the best lives for themselves — those people are not doing you wrong.

              1. Specialk9*

                Yeah. It’s this weird idea that because I feel annoyed, others should change their behavior, based on a rule I made up. It’s oddly self centered.

            3. Natalie*

              Jobs aren’t a commodity. A person can’t monopolize something they only have one or maybe two of.

            4. copy run start*

              But if someone needs to mitigate stress with a less-stressful position, then aren’t they a person who needs that particular job? By leaving the more stressful position they are opening up a position for someone who was waiting for that opportunity.

            5. Observer*

              That’s just not true. Sometimes the only way to mitigate stress is to change industries or to move a different and “lower” type of job. That’s a reality that is not going away just because you decided that one someone has a high paying job they must never prioritize their mental health over the possibility that someone else might need a job.

        3. Bea*

          Okay, so I should have just literally killed myself because of all the stress instead of taking a breather. That’s cool and not at all destructive.

          I didn’t see a damn thing about referring to a lower demanding job being a fake job and not real. That’s vile if anyone did say it in those words.

          What about career admins and people who never want to move up or who can’t move up due to limitations? Are we just picking at those who could go kill themselves in a high pressure toxic position?

          Have you ever been so overworked due to your skill set you thought of suicide? Because I sure the hell just got out of that situation. Sorry I took a job below my low level executive abilities and that I’m trampling on poor folks who didn’t get to have that wonderful problem.

          2. SallytooShort*

            “I didn’t see a damn thing about referring to a lower demanding job being a fake job and not real.”

            Oh, really? There were tons calling it “underemployed.”

            1. Triumphant Fox*

              That is the technical term for having a job that doesn’t actually meet your qualification level/pay? It’s literally the underuse of a worker’s skills.

              I see this as a false equivalence.

            2. Safetykats*

              Actually, the term underemployed refers to either working fewer hours than needed (as in part-time rather than full time) or working at below your skill level due to necessity. So if I really need and want a full-time job and can only find temp work, I’m underemployed. However, if I take a part-time job on purpose (for example, because I want to be able to spend more time with my kids) I’m not under-employed – even if the job I take is technically below my level of education or skill. In that sense, under-employment is definitely a personal judgement, and I don’t think you can decide for someone else whether they are under employed.

          3. SallytooShort*

            And, yes, I have been suicidal. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s a horrid practice to block people who have limited opportunities from these positions if you have more opportunities.

            1. Specialk9*

              It feels like you want to make universal moral rules that are only applicable to you.

            2. Managing to get by*

              Isn’t staying in a higher-level job also blocking people who are currently at a lower-level and want to advance?
              Any job someone has is not available to someone else while they have it. That doesn’t mean anyone having a job is intentionally blocking others from taking it, regardless of whether their “on paper” qualifications are higher than the minimum required for the job.
              Taking a job that is a good fit for them even if it appears to be below their educational and experience qualifications is not horrid. If someone cannot handle the stress of a high-level job, then they aren’t qualified for that job.

              1. Lance*

                Basically, all of this. And as for the ‘limited opportunities’ point? Everyone has limited opportunities, based on skillset, location, wage requirement, preferences, etc., etc. None of this is about ‘blocking’ people, it’s about finding a job that fits for you.

        4. Lehigh*

          Wow, what? Are you really saying that if Person A has a stressful job she needs to stay there in perpetuity because someone else might “need” the receptionist position (for instance) which Person A would enjoy more? Person A doesn’t get to factor in her own health or well-being?

          Let’s remember that with the high-stress position open, Person B who was just below it can move up, clearing her own job (and pay rate!) for someone another step down the ladder.

          Sure, it sucks to be Person H waiting for an entry-level job to open up, but I don’t see how it confers some kind of special righteousness.

          1. Argh!*

            Person A may have limited options. It’s easier to get a job if you have a job, and being jobless is incredibly stressful, too.

          2. SallytooShort*

            There are lots of ways to move around in stressful careers to deescalate stress without monopolizing the few jobs that should go to people starting out or who don’t have college degrees.

            1. Argh!*

              Nobody thinks “I’ll take away this job from a entitled young person just because I can.” They’re thinking “How can I pay my mortgage and support my 3 kids?”

            2. Natalie*

              And there are lots of ways for young workers to get experience and start in an industry, so you’re really not supporting your argument that they’re somehow entitled to entry-level jobs.

            3. Fortitude Jones*

              That’s not actually necessarily true, though. I had an extremely stressful career in claims and tried like hell to move into less stressful claims or claim-related positions, and yet I kept being shut out of those jobs because I either had too much experience for the claims roles (and, thus, they’d have to pay me more than was budgeted for the role) or they didn’t see me as anything other than a claims person who would potentially get bored and want to transform the position into something more high level than it actually was (the non claims roles). So I ended up leaving the field altogether and took a job in proposal management that has more recently been a role at my company filled by newer grads and/or people with 3-5 years professional work experience (I have 7+). I’m extremely happy with the change, less stressed over all, and I do not feel the slightest bit of guilt that someone entry level may have missed out on this opportunity because the company thought I was the better fit. That’s life – no one is entitled to any job.

              1. Safetykats*

                And this is a fantastic lesson. Sometimes, whether you’re really experienced or less so, you need to make a change to get what you want or need. I’ve gone back to school twice, while working full time, to expand or change my skill set. If there really just aren’t enough entry level jobs in the field you’ve chosen, the obvious answer is to expand your skill set or change your focus. There are fields currently paying hiring bonuses for entry level workers. If you’ve unfortunately chosen a field that just isn’t hiring, the obvious solution is to make a different choice.

        5. Anon and So*

          That is such an offensive assumption that demonstrates a limited understanding of the vagaries in life that can force a transition from a “real job” like that: a health condition, a change in or elimination of an entire industry, or a family crisis or tragedy or an evolving interest. Those are all legitimate and not your business. Check your own privilege in making such a generalization about the circumstances and histories of people you don’t know, and that includes your intimation that a job requiring fewer formal qualifications isn’t “real.”

          1. SallytooShort*

            People chronically unemployed because these job paths are completely blocked off have it so much easier.

            1. Argh!*

              It’s not a matter of who has it easier or not. It’s a matter of everyone needs a job and the most qualified person gets it, not the most deserving or most entitled.

            2. Ask a Manager* Post author

              I’m going to ask that you stop comparing who you think has it better or worse; you’re talking about individual people with individual circumstances that you can’t know, and in doing that you’re being pretty insulting to real individual people here. Thank you.

            3. scorpysuit coryphefuss arterius*

              The good news! is that you can be both “overqualified” and chronically unemployed.

              But we (jobseekers, citizens, people) don’t need to pit ourselves against each other just because structural problems make things difficult for so many.

      5. Glomarization, Esq.*

        > “overqualified” people aren’t your enemy

        Thanks for this. The 1-percenter types have made it so the rest of us are fighting for the scraps of jobs that have been left. This is an oligarchical capitalism issue.

    4. fposte*

      Agreeing with Victoria. While I know it’s frustrating for the applicants, when I hire I’m looking to fill the role with the best fit, not to create an opportunity for a particular class of person; I’m not going to set aside the best candidate for a broader point.

      1. Adele*

        Yup. that is spot on.

        It is frustrating for the person trying to enter the workforce but it can also be demoralizing for the person who needs to take a position below his or her training and skills. People make that choice for various reasons (I did, when the hours and stress had burned me out and life circumstances demanded more of my time at home), but others don’t want to be there, they just need a job and after months of not finding one, they apply for and take the best they can get.

    5. Laura H*

      Ok. But on the same hand, I’m sure the overqualified people might not like this either. It’s who’s the best fit for the job. There’s the matter of experience level that plays into it, but also there’s fit and the ability to do the job.

      Just as it’s not equal to be up against someone with more experience, it’s not an equal judgement to pass that all these more experienced folks are taking entry level jobs as a predatory move. You don’t know their story. They don’t know yours.

      (I say this as one who is underemployed, but happy where I am at the moment.)

      1. Argh!*

        It’s also not equal for an experienced worker to be presumed to have out of date skills compared to someone fresh from school. I’ve seen older people being passed over for this reason or even laid off.

    6. An Underemployed Millennial*

      I agree with you so much!! I recently applied for an internal admin-type job I really wanted and did not even get an interview despite meeting all of the qualifications because another internal candidate with a PhD and decades of experience got it. And now, the person who has that job is constantly complaining about how boring it is and I am so angry because it’s like wow, you took that job away from other people who really wanted it and you have the audacity to complain?!

      1. Luna*

        That is really frustrating and I can see why anyone would be upset by that. But I think your frustration is directed at the wrong person. The other candidate didn’t “take away” the job from anyone else, the hiring manager made a choice. In this case, it sounds like a bad choice.

        But if you had gotten that job, there could easily be someone else out there who is currently unemployed
        who might feel like you had no right to apply because you already had a job, and they needed it more. There is always someone else more in need.

        1. An Underemployed Millennial*

          Good point! I actually did need a job because I was a temporary employee and the organization doesn’t allow temps to just be suddenly made permanent, they have to make the temp job a permanent job and take applicants, but I’m definitely more angry with fate than the person who got the job or the hiring manager. I did get another temp assignment pretty quickly though, so that was cool :)

      2. Monsters of Men*

        Ooooh, you just reminded me about how I applied to be a supervisor for my department. It’s shift work and I always worked closing, which none of the supervisors for the other 18 locations did, so it was perfect. I had years of experience, was the incident commander for ten plus emergencies we had, and was completely qualified.

        My coworker got it because she had an HR diploma, even though we worked in recreation — and then two months later she quit for an HR job.

        But I was so frustrated I had quit a month earlier.

        Ahhhhh. Good times.

    8. Felicia*

      I used to feel like that applying for my first entry level job, because it’s not fair, but it’s really not fair to anyone and it’s not the overqualified peoples’ fault. And it kind of perpetuates the cycle of people not getting jobs at their qualification level. I do think it’s unfair when hiring managers think more experience doing something totally different = totally qualified for entry level admin roles, because it’s not really an anyone can do it great kind of thing, and that’s not fair to anyone.

      Basically, sucks for everyone in different ways and it’s not really an indiivdual problem.

      1. Manders*

        Yeah, there’s a lot more going on from a structural perspective, it’s not quite a zero-sum game even if it looks that way to a job candidate. For instance: a lot of companies got very comfortable with burning out salaried workers with too many hours during the lean times of the recession and didn’t really adjust back down to normal when the economy improved, churn and burn became more acceptable in certain sectors of the market, some jobs got easier to automate, some employers really went nuts with expecting employees to hit impossible metrics over the last decade, a lot of people with qualifications on paper ended up underemployed or unemployed for a long time, fields like academia cut out a ton of long-term stable jobs permanently, etc.

        Those are massive sector-wide problems that can’t really be fixed by overqualified candidate A who wants a less demanding job bowing out of a hiring process because entry level candidate B needs the job more.

      2. Argh!*

        A person who has had any kind of full-time work for a length of time has an edge over a first-time applicant because at least they have a track record of being reliable workers. This is why internships and volunteering are so important for recent grads.

  12. slackerbro*

    Question: what percentage of your work day do you do actual WORK?

    (I’m guessing I’m around 75%, which means that I slack off/waste about 2 hours every day on personal emails, chatting with coworkers, surfing the web, etc. This seems excessive to me. My husband says this is totally normal and par across the board of office-working professionals.)

    1. SoCalHR*

      I literally researched this yesterday as part of a time study for the admin team. It seems that 75%-80% is the “normal” expected range, but some studies show people only actually work about 3 hours per day?!?

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I’ve definitely HAD days where I only worked 3 hours either because it was a slow time and that’s all I could scrape up or, common in my current job, the tools I need to do all the work I currently have on my plate broke and it took ops 2 days to unbreak them so I did everything else in my backlog and then read the paper for 5 hours.

        I get the sense that my team is ~80% most days but we drop to like 60% on Fridays. We’re all remote and Friday afternoon is when we socialize in the group chat. It’s definitely not mandatory, though IMO it serves an important function, but it’s not strictly speaking “work”!

        1. paul*

          a ton of my work the last 2 weeks has been being on the phone with different tech vendors running diagnostics to figure out why mission critical software is FUBAR’d on my boss’s computer. Its…frustrating, ties me up, but doesn’t really occupy my mind you know?

      2. Hellanon*

        My uncle oversaw a group in an office setting for many years. I remember asking him once how many people worked there and he said, “Oh, about half.”

      3. Queen of the File*

        I am interested in what studies show! I feel like bias could cause people tend to naturally overestimate the amount of productive time they have in the day–like when asked to estimate how much money they spend on take-out coffee in a year, or how many calories they eat in a day. I think unless we’re actually tracking (which I know some people do), or looking at a job where the boundaries of “working” are very well-defined it’s pretty hard to be accurate.

        I once worked with someone who used to chastise coworkers for being 5-10 minutes late to work when she herself would often spend hours a day wandering around chatting. I think people have different ideas about what constitutes productive work time :)

        1. Betsy*

          Yes, I imagine most people would look back and say, ‘I was really very productive, just checked Facebook for a bit and chatted to colleagues’ and might be surprised about time wasted.

          I do know with me some days I’ll put in heaps of hours and not get much done and other days I’ll get so much done in the first three hours and not achieve that much for the rest of the day.

      4. Little Bean*

        Thank you for this! Until now, I have always worked in very high-demand jobs where I would say I was definitely almost always working a minimum of 40 hours per week, and still not getting everything done. I’m in a new role now where the work comes in suuuuper slowly and it’s on me to figure out what to do with myself most of the time. There’s a limit to how much I can motivate myself to come up with a new project or work on my professional development that will maybe pay off in 6 months. So in my current role, 75% sounds right. I have been feeling really bad about it, but I’m glad to hear that it’s normal for other people.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          I need to work 40 hours a week, but I can really only be productive like 75% of the time, so I’m spending 50+ hours in the office. Oh well!

    2. Forking Great Username*

      100%. But I’m in education, so there really isn’t any option but to constantly work when you have a class of students in front of you. Or when school ends and you have a stack of papers you’ve promised to get back to them with grades ASAP, plus you need to figure out your lessons for the following week, ways to differentiate for students with special needs, and get together all your materials/make copies of them for students.

      On the other hand, today we have a snow day, so woohoo for a day off! (Sort of – working on the previously mentioned lesson plan stuff.)

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        Yes to this. There is no downtime in teaching.

        Except I am drinking coffee while my kids watch a movie about the book we just finished reading. I stayed up until 11 last night grading. I don’t feel guilty.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, this. I’ve been “busy” in office jobs, but when I switched from full-time teaching to full-time office work, I always felt no matter how “busy” I was at my office job, it was nothing compared to how busy I was on the “slowest” day of teaching.

        Oh, you can go to the bathroom whenever you want? You have a few minutes to just chat with your co-worker while you’re “so busy” trying to get that report done?

        It’s not that office workers don’t work hard (I do at my current job), but it’s just a completely different level. You are not on all the time. Even when I was a receptionist answering phones ringing off the hook, I was still less busy than when I was teaching.

        1. Julianne*

          My husband is consistently astonished at my perpetual dehydration. “It’s bad for your health!” “So is desperately trying to hold in my pee for 4 hours every day.”

        2. Traveling Teacher*

          “You can go to the bathroom whenever you want”

          +100! I couldn’t believe just how life-changing this one small point was until I completely changed what I was doing, too. The no more grading/insane amounts of time doing bureaucratic nonsense was the biggest obvious benefit, but this one really was too…

      3. Julianne*

        Came here to say the same thing! Sometimes I am sufficiently on top of things that I can “do nothing” during the 30-60 seconds it takes my weekly helpers to pass out papers, or my students to clean up materials before transitioning to a new lesson…but usually there’s someone (or 10 someones) who is confused/having a feeling/bleeding/needing to tell me something during those seconds.

    3. Horse Lover*

      Totally depends on if we’re in our busy season or not. Right it is slow and I am searching for work to do. Once we ramp back up again it will be 100% work.

      1. David*

        Yeah that sounds about right for me too.

        I’m sure the range of acceptable answers (and actual answers) varies wildly by the type of job. For context, I’m a software engineer. I used to be a scientist and I think my answer would have been similar then.

    5. Fiennes*

      I probably did about 5 hours in the average day. Another 1.5 were usually spent waiting for turnarounds or calls back, walking to and from buildings, or sorting through various company communications-the stuff that’s kind of work and kind of not. Other 1.5, chatting, slacking, etc.

    6. Kat*

      90%. 10% for making tea and hiding in the toilet when I need space.

      I’m not allowed to use personal email or surf the web at work, so that definitely helps to keep my productivity high.

    7. Anita-ita*

      Oh I do so much more goofing around than that! My job is dependent on how busy my boss is – and he is gone at least 50% of the time (whether that is at an offsite meeting or traveling for business/fun). When he’s here, sometimes I don’t even have work to do.

      I probably spend an average of 4 hours a day not doing work.

    8. Susan K*

      I am very interested in responses to this, because I’ve often wondered what’s “normal.” I personally work almost nonstop. I do not read or write personal e-mails from work (they block gmail and I only use my work address for work stuff), and I do not surf the web except for things directly related to my job. That includes this site — I only come here before and after work and on days off (today, for example, is my day off). I do sometimes chat with coworkers, usually just while I’m working, but occasionally will stop what I’m doing for a longer conversation. I am allowed a 30-minute lunch break and two 15-minute breaks during my 12-hour shift, and I rarely take more than 30 minutes total in breaks.

      TL;DR: I am probably actively working at least 11 out of 12 hours of my shift, or about 92%.

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        You’re awesome for being able to keep up that level of productivity! I need mental breaks during the day.

      2. Zathras*

        I’m the same. I don’t think the company blocks gmail but I’ve never tried to find out. I just don’t do personal stuff on the work computer, full stop. I do usually check personal email and read AAM on my phone at lunch time (like right now) but that’s pretty much it.

        That said my company is really great about work life balance and trusts us to manage our own time. I find this makes it easier to be 100% at work when I am working. If I have extra personal stuff to take care of on a given day I can come in a little late or leave a little early and no one cares as long as my stuff gets done. If I hit a good stopping point at 4:15, I can just leave, I don’t have to pretend to work until 5.* If I need a mental break I take 5-10 minutes to get a coffee from the nicer machine on a different floor, which has the added bonus of a little bit of stair climbing exercise.

        *This is pretty rare, but it’s nice when it happens. The flip side is that sometimes I end up staying very late or jumping back online from home when there is an Urgent Thing.

    9. Naptime Enthusiast*

      Depends on the week, usually I’m at 70-75%. The problem is my conversations with coworkers will start with work talk and devolve into chatting, but my managers will come around and chat with us too so it’s considered fine as long as work is getting done when it needs to. For example, just a few minutes ago a manager noticed my engagement ring in a meeting and asked when I started wearing it (for the record, over a year ago!), so that distracted us for a good while.

    10. Starley*

      Probably 85%, and the responses to this post are making me feel so much better about that! I thought I was wasting too much time. I’m a sprinter, not a marathoner. If I try to focus on work 100% of the time, I end up getting less done.

    11. Not Me*

      I’d say it depends. Right now I’m working around 25% but there are times when I’m working 100%. The reason for this is I don’t have a good manager (she’s good but has too many direct reports) and she can’t give me what I need for a consistent work flow: project managment/product management/etc.

      So things are either on fire and must be fixed now! or the deadline is so far in the future and the project isn’t mapped out/tasked out/etc that it’s hard to actually work on it since the project seems overwhelming and the deadline is so far in the future so what does it matter.

    12. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

      It’s feast or famine in my world (research). When I have multiple projects going or one big one, I spend probably 80% of my day doing real work. But the last two weeks have been painfully quiet, so I’ve probably spent closer to 25% of my day doing actual work.

    13. Not Me*

      PS. I’ve asked for project management for a year now; does anyone know good scripts to get through to her that this is something I NEED? She seems to think she can do it all and then… doesn’t. I’ve kinda given up. I’ve told her I need structure but I can’t figure out how to phrase it so that it doesn’t seem like I’m asking her to hold my hand. I just want a task list with accountability dammit.

    15. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

      Average is 95 – 120% with the odd 50% thrown in there once every year or so. Like today! 120% equals at work for overtime all week taking only bio breaks to crank something out!

    16. another person*

      I track my hours to the minute (for exclusively personal reasons–I’m a grad student in a lab with minimal supervision so if I don’t track my time I find the percent of actual work I do drops off until I’m not getting anything done) and I usually work 6-7 hours of being at work 8-9 hours, so about 75% of the time. BUT my work also has a lot of 5 minute incubation times (depending on what experiment I am doing) which i count as being productive, because there isn’t really anything I can do during those 5 minutes except check e-mails or mess around on the internet (like right now!). I also go in cycles, though, where I get several weeks of 8+ hour days followed by a week or two of 6 hour days.

      1. another person*

        Also, I don’t have set numbers of days I can take off, or whatever (it’s all vague) so some days when everything dies and I can’t do the rest of my experiments I do just give up and go home for the rest of the day, and so occasionally have days where I work 1 hour that ends up getting nothing done. (So much failure in science).

    17. Serin*

      Great thread. My job right now doesn’t have quite enough for me to do, and it’s hell on my work ethic.

      My sense of “normal” may be out of whack because my longest-term previous jobs were church secretary (105%) and small-town journalist (basically no line between ‘working’ and ‘not working,’ and nearly impossible to have friends who don’t also work for the same newspaper).

    18. Mimmy*

      It fluctuates wildly for me, depending on whether I have one or two students in a given period and how much help they need in completing their lessons. In the one “prep” period we get, I try to catch up on notes or reports unless I have a case conference.

    19. Goya de la Mancha*

      Day/season dependent.

      I spend some days doing maybe 15% work when I have to wait for others to finish theirs. Once they get theirs done and I can do mine, it’s probably closer to 90-95%.

      And then there are days where the boss announces that she doesn’t feel like working….so we all do about 5-10% ;)

    20. What is work?*

      Really important question: Do meetings that should take 15 minutes, but are actually scheduled for and take 2 hours because of the inevitable off-topic discussions count as work?

      1. Zathras*

        I had the same thought. My suggestion is – if you have the power to change the meeting, then no. If not, then yes. :-)

      2. Betsy*

        Oh, they definitely count. But sometimes I sit there and think ‘this is the easiest work I’ve ever done’. I’m in a very hierarchical workplace, so they actually seem to prefer that we don’t contribute. I am a good-two shoes and usually like to put effort into contributing to meetings and seeming like a good team-player, but since no-one else speaks except the supervisors, I’m just trying not to be a loudmouth at the moment and sitting meekly.

    21. Delphine*

      There are days when it’s 100% and days were it’s 30%. Last week I had two days in a row where there was just about nothing for me to do. I went into a folder to complete a write-up for next month and found I’d already done it on another slow day! I definitely prefer the 80%/90% working days.

    22. boy oh boy*

      I know this thanks to a cool app called Rescue time. On average, I’m 86% productive! This is based on about two years’ data gathered automatically by the app.

      I started using it because I knew I wasn’t productive, and this helped me find out exactly what the problem was and measure improvements. It also does it with zero effort on my part.

    23. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      well, today, my actual work output appears to be about 0. Next week isn’t looking good either. Not happy about it, but it’s part of the deal right now.

    24. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      Now that I have a desk job, I range from 50% at the slowest (boss is out of town or it’s summertime) to 90-95% at the busiest – I have done a handful of 100% days when the grants are going in or something else huge is happening.

      In my previous job as a veterinary technician, it was 95-100%, always. We chatted, but while we were doing something else – if we weren’t actively involved in patient care, we were cleaning. If it was truly slow, some of us were sent home. I have to think teaching is probably the most 100% (or higher if you count grading/lesson plans/meetings after school hours) job you can have. Yikes!

      1. Live and Learn*

        I manage projects and as company policy we actually estimate that a full time employee who normally is at work 8 hours a day will only spend 6 of those hours working, so we don’t overestimate how quickly they will accomplish tasks. When people ask we explain it as 6 hours work and 2 hours in meetings, talking to co-workers, taking bio/food breaks, etc but realistically we assume its more like food/bio breaks, slacking time, personal calls/email, etc. 75% seems like a reasonable average.

    25. Bea*

      Depends on day, time of month and time of year. Books go in cycles, if I’m not closing or working on budgets or quarterlies, I’m up to my ears in free time with the scale of accounting required for my one person department. Also I have gaps where I’m waiting for the internal review where if I’m extra fast (which is a lot), more downtime.

      I mean I could do custodial duties but we have a cleaning service and I’m no longer an OM so it would be weird and questioned if I did.

    26. Lillian Gilbreth*

      I bill my hours, and on average I have an hour to an hour and a half of non billable time from eating, browsing AAM, and chatting with my coworkers. Sometimes it’s more (right after New Years work slowed way down and I had 4.5 hours of GO time for a day) and a few times I’ve been so absorbed in a project I literally bill a whole 8 or 9 hour day minus 15ish minutes for bathroom and water breaks.

    27. H.C.*

      At current job, I’d say fluctuates between 50-80%, but there have been moments when it’s closer to 30% and others when it’s 100%. But I think this is industry dependent—I knew my productivity is closer to 90% when I worked in foodservice (where there’s no opportunity to web surf/email/text/chat & an never-ending list of downtime tasks to do during slow periods — and if it’s REALLY slow, they’ll just let you off your shift early.)

    28. user7842*

      100%. More than that actually – I officially have a 0.75 h lunch break I don’t get paid for but normally spend just 20 minutes eating, then work.

      Yes, this is sad. No, I’m not proud of it.

      1. H.C.*

        You should take the full 45 minutes if that’s what’s allotted for your unpaid lunch, use the other 25 minutes to take a walk, listen to a podcast, etc. Your manager/workplace can get in trouble for you doing unpaid work.

        1. user7842*

          My manager does very well I do unpaid work (not only 25 minutes daily) and expects me to.

    29. GG Two shoes*

      Like most, it varies a lot. I thought I would be much busier as head of a department and doing my role, but honestly I found ways to streamline or otherwise delegate out work (to help keep my staff busy too, otherwise they get antsy) that I now have much less work than I anticipated.
      I spend too much time on the internet but my work is quality, turned in early, and better than previous employees and I seek out new tasks so there isn’t much they can complain about. I’m confident I could do this work part time, but I’m not telling my boss that!

    30. Chaordic One*

      Back at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. I probably worked between 90 to 95% of the time. It was an extremely heavy workload and extremely detailed work that required a lot of intense concentration. It was made more difficult by the open office and the constant stream of interruptions. It seemed like there was never enough time to do anything thoroughly and I was always rushing, squeezing 12 hours of work into 8 hours of day. I was very burnt out when I was ultimately fired from that job.

    31. Spelliste*

      A friend who’s a high level project manager (think 10+ teams of 10+ people apiece) and 30 years into her career told me that if she gets 6 hours of work per day out of someone, she’s satisfied. 8 is unrealistic for most people, and interaction and breaks make people happier, better employees, resulting in better product and less turnover.

    32. Jillociraptor*

      On average, I’d say I probably get about 8 hours of actual work done per day, but not all of it is done during the workday. I usually respond to a bunch of emails and texts while I get ready, and then knock out a couple of things every night. A few times a month I get to do my favorite thing (seriously, this is my very favorite way to work), get absolutely in the zone between 12-3am and do about three days’ worth of work in three hours.

      During the 9-5 when I’m in the office, I’d say I’m working about 5 of the 8 hours? I do a lot of strategic thinking and decision-making and I’ve found that I need a lot of extensive breaks–not just 15-20 minutes here and there, but like an hour of apparent time wasting–where my brain is just doing NOTHING, so I can balance my energy throughout the day. I’ve never really had the endurance to keep up a moderate pace over a dedicated period of time. In school and in all of my work experience, I’ve always been more of a HIIT person.

    33. Akcipitrokulo*

      Our sprint planning assumes 6 hours (out of 7.5) per day – that takes into account meetings, but also just being asked things, going for a coffee, etc. It works out pretty reasonably.

    34. Annie Edison*

      I’d say about 75%. I tend to work pretty hard through the morning and can easily get my day’s quota done then. Once I take lunch everything falls apart, I burn out, and I tend to work slowly, check my social media, chat with coworkers, etc. I’d say this is pretty par for the course in my office – my boss doesn’t really care what we do with our time so long as the work gets done.

      When I worked at my dysfunctional job, I worked the full 8 hours, no question. We had to submit detailed, down to the minute time sheets of what we did (to the extent my boss knew how long I was in the bathroom that day, yuck). And we were watched like hawks to make sure we were actually working. If they even saw your cell phone they’d confiscate it and write you up!

    35. Bleeborp*

      I think 75% sounds about right but my husband is much more rigid and doesn’t like to goof around at work as much. We both have office-ish jobs but his is much more output oriented than mine so I think that makes sense but it’s obvious his coworkers doing the same work goof off more than he does and, if anything, he’s the one out of the norm.

    36. Elizabeth West*

      At OldExjob, it was probably 80-85%. I sometimes had slack periods in the late afternoon, after FedEx picked up. However, I couldn’t go online, so I used the time to write. All that typing made me look busy, haha.

      At Exjob, I had long periods of slack time waiting for material from other people, so it was more like 60% and some days even 40%. On days where reports came in or I had to do the revenue data matching, my mornings were busier. Overall, the pace there was much slower since it wasn’t front desk and I didn’t have to answer the phone or deal with walk-ins, vendors, etc. I liked not having the constant go-go-go, but there were times I got colossally bored. AAM helped; so did having homework, which my bosses said was fine for me to do.

      It bothered me that I had so little to do at times, but I found I vastly prefer being left alone to set my own pace. I seem to work better and faster that way. However, I probably won’t be that lucky again, at least not in any jobs I could get here.

    37. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      I’ve had jobs where (including my current one and the one before) where part of the deal was that you might be needed at any time between 8 and 4, so some days you do nothing until you get 5 tasks at 3:30, or some days the tasks come steady every hour and you work all day.

      I’ve generally found there some tasks I do faster than my peers (and just as well) so then I end up with more downtime. Sometimes I still do work – organizing, filing, general background research. Sometimes I’m reading this site, etc. :)

      So I’d say averaged out, I work about 60% of the day.

    38. Super Anon for this*

      Nearly every Corporate America job I’ve had hasn’t had enough work to keep me busy for full-time hours. I’d say on average I have work to do about one-third of the time (at best), and it absolutely drives me NUTS. I honestly have no idea how to address it, because I can’t exactly afford to talk myself out of a job/paycheck by bluntly letting them know that they don’t actually need me there. I have asked “What would you like me to do today/now?” only to be given a ten-minute task and then left to my own devices. I have asked for lists of priorities to work through, and get vague answers and/or a promise to discuss it “later” which of course never happens, and I’m not sure how often or how many times I should be reminding them that I’m still waiting. I have even proposed projects myself, but never get authorization to run with them. I know managers have other responsibilities too, but this is ridiculous; I’ve never figured out how to solve this without clearly risking my job. And sitting doing nothing is really detrimental to my mental health.

      To be clear, if a manager gives me something to do, I’ll jump right on it. The problem comes when I finish it in a few hours and they clearly weren’t expecting me to give it back that soon.

    39. Writelhd*

      Mostly 90%, occasionally I’ll hit a burn out period and it goes down to 70% and I waste time surfing, other times it ramps up to past 100% with lunch breaks skipped and such. Actually lunch breaks are pretty damn often skipped, I just usually recoup them by taking longer ones later in the week to go to the gym. But sometimes too many meetings and site visits and phone calls and I just can’t. For days, weeks on end. But I try to get up and walk around parking lot for 10 minutes or so at least.

    40. Managing to get by*

      In my prior job, about 70%. In my current job I’m slammed all day long and then continue working from 5pm to 7pm to catch up on emails and review urgent issues with my boss, who has been in meetings all day so not available for escalations. It sucks and we both are striving to get back to regular working hours. I’d be happy around 95% to 100% (with an actual lunch period and a couple of breaks, but busy for 8 hours) if I have to get up and drive to the office I’d rather be busy than wasting time.

    41. YaH*

      I’ve been doing a time analysis since the beginning of the year, and I apparently am spending about 95% of my workday actively working. 4.444% of my time each day is spent doing hallway duty, which is my only non-role-specific duty. I work through lunch every day and only get to chat/socialize with coworkers before or after school hours.

  13. Elodie*

    I work with another co-worker, “Sofia”, who is older than me and slightly senior. Sofia and I are the only ones in our department.

    Sofia often asks for my help on projects or the managers assign me to help her.

    Sofia gets into moods and either snaps at me or leaves the room when I enter and goes to talk to other people. If I have a question about something, she claims to not know or tells me to ask someone. (Even though I help her.) She bosses me around, but then asks for my help and in return never helps me.

    Everyone else works together well and they are friendly with one another- they go out to lunch together, get coffee together, hang out, etc. (Except Sofia and I) I’ve tried- we went to lunch together once when I started and that was it.

    I want to straight out ask her what her problem is, but that would be unprofessional, etc.

    What should I do? Should I say something to the boss?

    1. fposte*

      I think this may be a “Your co-worker sucks and isn’t going to change” situation (IIRC from your post last week, she’s also snotty about you having a master’s degree, so she really is just kind of a jerk). If you think your manager would be concerned about how much help you have to give her, or if her refusal to help you slows the work down, you can loop your manager in. Otherwise, you don’t have to be bossed just because Sofia wants to boss you; you don’t have to leap to help her just because she asks; you don’t have to put in work to make her like you or find out why she doesn’t. Don’t use the other team as a benchmark for your relationship, either; lots of workplaces don’t have employees who hang out or go to lunch together.

      1. Spelliste*

        It may do to check with your boss about how much direction they expect you to take from Sofia. And where that should fit with your work priorities. (“Sofia often directs me to XXXX. Since this affects my ability to do YYYY quickly, I wanted to check with you on what your expectations are.” Response could include, “Please help Sofia out, unless you’re working on items A or B. Helping her takes priority over items Y and Z.”)

        This won’t work with all bosses, but I had repeated confusion and tension with a colleague (alarming, first time ever in a decade of working!), and was comfortable enough to go to the boss and ask if he had recommendations on how to work best with the person. Turns out, she likes things very structured, and responds better to working out issues over the phone or in person rather than over email. It was really useful, and I’ve had no problems with her in the year since.

    2. neverjaunty*

      Take an attitude of friendly disinterest – like you feel a little sorry for her but don’t otherwise notice her much. That lets you be professional, but keeps you out of the morass of trying to make nice with her while she’s unpleasant to you.

      1. Purple Puma*

        That’s actually how I generally behave to my own moody bossy controlling coworker (who fortunately I don’t have to work with much anymore). I keep it polite and professional, and otherwise stay distant from her. It’s been super helpful in keeping me sane – another coworker of mine gets pissed off regularly by Ms. Bossy and it adds a lot of stress to her day.

  14. Misa*

    I’m in a job that is not a good fit for me, for over 2 years now… there are a lot of factors and I have tried many things but have come to the conclusion that I have to move on eventually. I’ve caught myself wishing that things would change but now I feel I just need to accept the truth of the situation and plan accordingly.

    But my job is relatively secure and the benefits are the best I’ve seen (people don’t leave and it adds to the dysfunction here). My husband’s company was bought out and they are starting to lay people off and make other changes. So I want to hang in there, a year or two here, start looking slowly for another position and my question is:

    What suggestions do you have for surviving in a job you’re unhappy in, until you can move on? I’ve stopped working overtime where possible and turning more energy to life outside of work but I am struggling with feeling angry and frustrated and it affecting all other areas of my life. I really want to change my thinking, appreciate the good things here (benefits, work from home one day a week, etc.) and make the most of it and not let this place drag me down so much. But I’m really struggling.

    Thanks in advance,

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      There have been several variations on this of late–check last week’s thread. The advice that stuck out to me is to come up with a break-glass plan you COULD implement within a few months if you really wanted to. Rather than framing everything in “two years from now….” terms. And view staying in your job as a way to build up savings, get any optional medical procedures done, etc–steps toward a desirable long-term goal. Putting emotional energy into things outside of work is good; building up savings is good; these may conflict.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed, you survive by making a routine habit to take baby steps that are part of your plan to get out of there.
        So what small steps can you take next week to inch your way toward that door?

        Here’s the deal. When others let us down that is one thing. BUT when we let ourselves down that is a bfd. Promise yourself to work on getting you out of there starting right now. And decide not to let you down. If you want, talk to us here about building an actionable plan.

        1. Quinoa*

          One thing that has helped me tremendously in a toxic environment I can’t afford to leave: a daily reaffirmation of my choice to stay. Every morning, when the alarm goes off that tells me I have 30 minutes to get myself out the door, I shut off the alarm and then CHOOSE to go to work. It’s amazing what a difference that has made for my attitude. I’m no longer there because I have to be. I’m there because I choose to be, and that feels tremendously powerful.

          1. Misa*

            I really like that. I have a really hard time with feeling that I’m trapped and that I can’t leave and have no other options (which I know isn’t true but I can get ahead of myself sometimes). Thanks!

    2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Im in the exact same spot right now. Honestly, I’ve tried many of the same things you have and there are days when it still gets me down and I need to go home and hide under a pillow for a half hour or so. Even worse, I was in a department where at any given time a third of the team would not really be assigned anything because the higher-ups couldn’t get their act together and decide what they wanted to do. Or I would have work and then it would be taken away from me and reassigned to one of the graduates so they “could get experience”. No, I don’t need to tell you how insulted that made me feel.

      Anyway, I have done the following:
      1) Took a project on another team just to have something to do and a change of scenery to test the question: is it me or this place (answer: this place)

      2) Remembered why I took this job – I gave it a fair shot, realized I didnt want to be promoted to the next level (even though I should have started there), or stay long term. I remembered I took this in order to get healthier and use the benefits to help me transition to a new career

      3) Do something little each day to move you in your preferred direction – for me when I start to flag and feel frustrated again it is usually because I haven’t been as proactive lately. I feel much better when I start to take positive actions towards my goals – setting and working on exercise goals or taking a course in the area I am looking to move towards, attending a meetup, etc.

      4) Being around positive people – this can be in a club unrelated to work or maybe a local career group. Just talking to people can be invigorating and make you feel less alone

      It doesnt work 100% of the time, but it has helped temper some of the wilder swings I experienced in the first nine months. What you are doing with dropping overtime and focusing on life outside of work is good too, but I know how long those 40 hrs a week can still drag.

      1. Misa*

        I can totally relate to what you’re saying and while it’s possibly little comfort, you’re not alone.

        My position for me has turned out to be very remedial and no matter what I try to do to do other work, projects, etc. I seem to only be given grunt work, expected to handle catering for meetings (I have actual skills) while there are so many people here that don’t have skills at all… Some don’t know how to use Outlook and don’t want to learn… And the general attitude is one of indifference… Generally if you want/need something to get done you often have to almost do someone else’s job and…. And it all makes me nuts…

        Sorry… anywho I was thinking of listening to podcasts and doing other things like you mention, to focus on my personal goals while I’m there. Try to get in some walking at lunch (and get some air)… Things like that, to help balance it out. Lately I find I’m always trying to take time off and that’s no way to manage this.

        Best of luck to you. Hopefully there are better things waiting for us, just around the corner!

    3. Chaordic One*

      I would start my job search ASAP, like yesterday. Even though there are a few good things about the job, it will only get worse as time goes by. It is hard to look for another job when you’re feeling down about your current job. Also, since you still have a job, it will make you a more attractive candidate to potential employers, and you won’t feel like you have to take the first thing that is offered to you if it isn’t quite what you want.

    4. LilySparrow*

      I focused on reducing my stress and making myself happier in other ways, including small physical things.

      I brought in some plants and tchotchkes that made me feel good (pretty pencil cup, a favorite mug).
      I quit eating lunch in the flourescent-lit basement break room and went to the gym or walked outside, or even read a book & ate at my desk, instead.
      I planned and packed meals & snacks and started tracking my sleep & water intake.

      All these things had practical benefit as well as sending myself the message, “I am taking good care of myself. I deserve to feel good and be happy.”

      It really helped.

      1. Misa*

        That is so great, thanks. It took me a long time to bring a few things in and then I removed them quickly because I felt like it meant I wouldn’t leave… So I didn’t want any personal items in the office, to make it clear to myself this was temporary. But I can totally have some things and reframe my thinking… And then take them home on my last day :)

    5. foolofgrace*

      I encourage you to read an earlier post here in a different thread by anonymousME — I thought it contained great advice on dealing with difficult people. anonymouseME recommended viewing these people as if you were an “uninvolved anthropologist, meeting the Passive Aggressive Cubicle tribe for the first time.” You could say “Oh here comes Atticus Ponificus, let’s observe his behavior today!” Sorry you’re going thru this and sorry I don’t have more help but I do second the comments here. Hang tough!

      1. Misa*

        Interesting, I’ll look for it, thanks! I have tried to imagine myself as an actress giving an Oscar worthy performance when I walk in in the morning but that hasn’t quite lasted more than a few minutes :)

    6. Safetykats*

      You don’t say why this job isn’t a good fit, and it sounds like maybe it’s not a terribly toxic workplace, just sort of disfunctional? I find it’s a good exercise to try to find one good thing, however small, and concentrate on that. It’s easy to concentrate on the things that frustrate you, but that’s not a helpful strategy if you goal is to make it work out at least until your spouse has more job security. (And I agree that it’s a good thing not to have both of you potentially changing jobs at the same time – my husband and I have always tried for that also, which has sometimes meant that one of us stays somewhere longer than we would like.)

      Another commenter talked about finding a new or different project that might have you working with some different people, or maybe learning some new skills. If you can do that, it might make things feel better. I would also maybe try to figure out exactly what isn’t a good fit, and why, and see if there isn’t something (however small) you can do to change that thing. I think that often we have more autonomy than we think, if we only realize and practice it. That’s hard to do when you’re feeling stuck, but it can make all the difference.

  15. Loopy*

    Does it ever appear unprofessional to do things with a fellow coworker outside of work? Like friend type things? This is someone who could never be my boss, and we are equal peers on a team. We are going to a movie tonight and have referred to it maybe in passing once and I wondered if it possibly made us look less professional to be “hanging out”. If it matters, we are the same gender/sex and both in relationships so I don’t think any gossip could come from it.

    1. dr_silverware*

      I don’t think so, but since you’re worried about it, it seems you may be in a more formal workplace than I am. Still, just don’t brag on it and make people feel excluded; it’s totally ok to be friends with your coworkers. These are people you’re spending 40 hours/week with!

      1. Anne of Green Gables*

        I don’t see it as a problem. I do advise you not to advertise in the office, though. I think who you are friends with is your business, but you don’t necessarily want it to be one of the first things people think when they think about you.

    2. Bridgette*

      I would say as long as you are peers, it it fine. I got to movies with people I work with about 3x a year. Sometimes when it’s a really popular movie or a movie that many people like, we will go as a big group.

    5. grace*

      I think I differ from a lot of others on this site in that I don’t think friendships with your colleagues are inherently bad/something to be worried about – and in this case, it’s definitely not! If you can handle spending time with someone after spending 40+ hours a week with them, I think that’s awesome :)

      Full disclosure that my coworker and I share an office and get along like a house on fire, to the point where people have asked if we’re sure we only met each other after working here. Our office is not formal at all, but I’m not keen to work somewhere this would be frowned on, YMMV!

    6. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

      I think it is totally fine. I had three coworkers over to my house last weekend for brunch. None of us report to each other and we never will.

    7. The Tin Man*

      I don’t think that’s an issue. I would be the same with worrying about it though because I was reluctant to invite my cowork and her husband to a Friendsgiving I was hosting with my partner. I was nervous about how melding work and friends would go but it went very well. We haven’t done anything outside of work since then but I am just fine with that.

    9. Thlayli*

      Maybe in some regions this would be considered unprofessional but I’ve done it in every job I’ve ever had and lots of other people have too

    10. Lindsay J*

      The only way I could see it being a problem is if the two of you are in a department of 3 and so it could be perceived as you excluding the 3rd person.

      Or if the other person is in a different type of role than you, and one of your roles could require the appearance of impartiality. Like if you’re a manager and she’s an HR person, you wouldn’t want your reports to feel like they couldn’t go to HR if they had an issue because they were afraid she would automatically take your side or what they said would get back to you. Or if you were in a quality assurance role and she was in production, you might not want to risk making it look like you would go easier on her than you would on someone you didn’t hang out outside of work with.

      But otherwise, no, I don’t think there is anything unprofessional about hanging out with someone or being friends with them outside of work.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yes, this–and the other thing is that work friendships sometimes tend to fall apart once one person leaves the job, since both parties no longer have that shared experience. But if you have stuff in common and you’ve cultivated a relationship outside the office, it doesn’t have to.

    11. Cajun2core*

      Hell, I have I worked with roommates. Granted, we were on totally different teams. I worked their first (at one location) and then get got a job at a different location. I then moved to his location.

      Everyone knew it and no one had a problem with it.

    12. Elizabeth West*

      The two consultants on my team at Exjob hung out all the time. So did the two leads on the team near where I sat. Nobody ever thought anything of it, other than that they were friends. As long as you keep any drama out of work, and you’re not acting like mean girls to other coworkers, then it’s fine.

    13. Traveling Teacher*

      At one old job, about half of all coworkers were also roommates, so it would actually be quite strange to never do anything with them! (But obviously, this is so not the norm!)

    14. David*

      Depends on the workplace maybe? Everywhere I’ve ever worked, doing friend-type things with coworkers was an extremely normal thing, so much so that it would never occur to me that anyone might see it as unprofessional.

      Maybe your workplace is different about that, in which case you probably shouldn’t take my experience to mean very much.

      1. Safetykats*

        This has been perfectly normal at every job I’ve had. Not everyone hangs out together, but most people have a few good friends they hang out with and work with. In one job it was so prevalent (most people spending at least part of every weekend socializing with people from the group) that when we got a new boss who thought we might need to do some team-building activities we thought it was pretty funny.

    15. Hobgoblin*

      Well, I hope not considering I’ve done the following with coworkers: went to France with her church group, played paintball, married one, all sorts of eating and hanging out shenanigans, and working out. I think it’s a know your work culture deal. We are close knit by default so no one bats an eye but in some places it might be weird? Although, even if it was, I just wouldn’t talk about it at work.

  16. Jane's Replacement*

    I could use some help here.

    I recently started a new job as an analyst for a small organization and I’m worried that I might be getting set up to fail here. I really wanted this job to be the one that I stay in for a while, and so I was careful during the interview process to make sure this job would be a good fit. By all accounts it was! It seemed very similar to my previous job (which I excelled at) except for better pay and benefits. I was told that I would be replacing Jane, who is retiring, and that Jane had agreed to stay on part-time for the first several months in order to help train me. I figured that I would be lucky to have access to my predecessor while learning the ropes.

    It turns out that Jane has been at this company for over 20 years and is extremely good at her job. She has invaluable knowledge about the company’s data and systems as a result of working in multiple capacities during her time here. Everyone here has taken advantage of her proficiency and in return she has enjoyed a high level of autonomy. This is now problematic because nobody- not even my supervisor- knows how to do her job. Although I am able to recreate some of her reports using my own methods, often times a report will come up that Jane has been doing for years and I have absolutely no idea how to address it. Jane and I have been doing our best to document her processes, but I know we will not be able to cover it all before she leaves. She retires in May and has made it clear that she is not willing to work a day beyond that. My boss expects me to be up to Jane’s level by the then. The truth is that I would have to work with Jane for at least another year, preferably longer, before feeling like I could adequately take over her position.

    I want to leave, but I worry about launching another job search because I don’t have the most stable job history and I have already been here for 4 months. Going back to my previous job is not an option, as they have already hired my replacement and have no room for me elsewhere. Is it worth trying to leave? Is there anything I can do to make sure this doesn’t fail spectacularly? Has anyone else been through something similar and lived to tell the tale?

    1. CM*

      It is unreasonable to expect someone new to the job to be at the same level as someone who has been there for 20 years. Hopefully that is not actually what your boss thinks is possible. For you sanity, stop comparing yourself to Jane and focus on the tasks.

    2. Anne of Green Gables*

      Maybe talking with your boss and asking him/her to prioritize what they want you up to speed on most? I know the answer is always “everything,” but you could say something like “I obviously can’t learn 20 years worth of knowledge in a few months. With two more months left to work with Jane, what are your top priorities for what we should be using our remaining time together going over?”

      I agree, it’s ridiculous to expect you to be at the level of someone who has done a job for 20 years in just a few months.

      1. Future Analyst*

        I like this script– hopefully it helps to ask your manager to prioritize what you should cover before Jane leaves. But I don’t think you have to quit, Jane’s Replacement! Give it time, learn what you can, and after Jane is gone, if your manager asks for something that you don’t know, be honest about the fact that you didn’t get to cover that with Jane, and then do your best to come up with an approximation of what’s needed. You don’t have to be Jane 2.0: just show that you are eager to learn and happy to work on what the business needs. If things are still tense/frustrating 6 months after Jane leaves, reconsider if you want to stay, but definitely don’t preemptively quit!

    3. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      My boss expects me to be up to Jane’s level by the then.
      Has your boss said this explicitly?
      There are three routes here:
      1) your boss expects you to be able to functioning at the same level as Jane once she leaves.
      2) your boss expects you to be able to complete all the tasks Jane has when she leaves.
      3) your boss expects you do know all of Jane’s tasks and the processes needed to complete them by the time Jane leaves.

      The first thing you need to do is make a list of all Jane’s tasks. Put a number value between 0-100% next to each one and honestly assess yourself regarding: its purpose, its process (tools and timeline).
      The second thing you need to do is meet with your boss and ask him what his expectations really are.
      Show him your status and come up with a game plan because Jane is leaving whether the boss likes it or not. And better he helps the person who is helped by Jane than let you fail and start the next person without Jane.

    4. Natalie*

      My boss expects me to be up to Jane’s level by the then.

      Is this something your boss has said explicitly to you? If so, you probably need to go back and talk to them again about what’s realistic 1 year in (which, obviously being equivalent to a 2 decade veteran is not). I know that probably seems risky, but just ignoring it is equally or more risky.

      But if they haven’t said it explicitly, I’d start asking yourself how you know this. It could be something you’re inferring that isn’t accurate, they could be making bad dumb jokes that are making you nervous, etc.

    5. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I would also try to have Jane explain to boss and coworkers that things will have to be different after she leaves because there is no way someone 3 months into the job will be able to do everything a 20yr veteran did. Focus on the stuff you do for boss as a priority and try limiting what you do for others (maybe have Jane work with a few of them on how to run the reports themselves as long as there are no access issues).
      New eyes are also a great way to bring updates and new processes into a role. I know when I started at current job that was one of the things they really wanted me to do – take a look and things and see if there were better, more efficient ways to do thing.
      The important thing is start communicating your bandwidth to boss and coworkers so you can adjust their expectations. Have a conversation with Jane and ask her to help you communicate that out – maybe a small meeting with you, boss, and Jane to discuss what will and won’t be possible after she leaves. Having the “superstar” clearly state that their expectations of you are unreasonable will help your cause. A little praise her way (truthful of course) about how much you are learning and how impressed you are with her knowledge might go a long way to getting her assistance in that.

      1. Samiratou*

        Yes, this. I was going to suggest having Jane help set those expectations. I’m a bit of a Jane, in that I’ve been the only one supporting a couple of products for a few years, with nobody else able to cross-train, so if I got hit by a bus tomorrow there’d be a lot of institutional knowledge lost.

        You can’t learn everything. Learn the priorities, and set expectations (with Jane!) that when Jane is gone, stuff is going to change and it may take longer to fix things or make updates as you familiarize yourself with everything.

        But you’ll be fine, and the organization will be fine, and you will find things that maybe Jane didn’t do perfectly or that have changed since Jane created them and you will make improvements and that will be fun, too.

    6. Fabulous*

      I agree you need to talk to your boss about expectations and what’s reasonable by the time Jane leaves. Let her know that a) you’re not going to be able to cover everything with Jane, b) you feel like it will take you at least a year to become 100% proficient on the things you have covered with Jane and you’ll be around 50% (or whatever) when she leaves, and c) you’re both doing your best to get Jane’s processes documented that you won’t be able to cover but there will likely be things you’re going to have to learn on your own. Twenty years of history and knowledge is a lot for anyone to learn!

    7. Emilitron*

      You’re getting good advice about setting expectations. The other thing to remember is that Jane has taught you a lot in a few months – you’re going to be spectacularly good at this job as compared to anybody who never worked with Jane at all. Meaning, you have some leverage here – as soon as Jane leaves, you’re a very valuable employee and hard to replace, even if you’re not as perfect as she was.

    8. anonagain*

      I’ve been in this situation only with a longer overlap period. I echo the advice to have Jane help set up reasonable expectations.

      Maybe sit with her and write out a plan for the remaining weeks and then talk to your boss about it. Be conservative, since you won’t have access to Jane after, but if you do more than you planned that will be a positive.

      Also, get the names and contact information from the people Jane works with. I would try to get information about the contact people’s roles, too, not just their names. That way when someone in another department leaves I still know how to find the information I need.

      I would also ask her if there are other people in the company who you can go to for advice when she is gone. No one will know your exact job, but there will be people who can help with different pieces of it.

      Good luck. It’s not easy to be in this position.

    9. Jane's Replacement*

      Thank you all for your helpful comments and insights!!! I feel a lot better now moving forward with a plan.

      To clarify, my boss has explicitly stated that he expects me to be at Jane’s level by the time she leaves, but as I said before he has no idea the extent of what she does. Per the advice many of you gave, I plan to have a conversation with him and Jane this week to set expectations moving forward. I will also have Jane write down the names/email addresses/departments of her key contacts, and have her introduce us in person if we have time.

      Some of you also made the good point that I have a bit of leverage here as the only person in my position who will have any sort of interaction with Jane. Firing me on performance alone (given that I’m trying my best) probably wouldn’t be the best idea for the company, as its unlikely my replacement would fare much better. With this in mind, I plan to stick it out and see how it goes, and if it’s truly unbearable by the end of the year then I can resume a job search.

  17. Andrea*

    London’s gotten more snow last week than it has for years, and public transport has been problematic (driving isn’t really an option for most). I live close enough to work to not have to use public transport, so I didn’t need to WFH, but I discovered an additional benefit of companies that allow WFH: I got to work in a half-empty office that was nice and quiet, instead of having to deal with irate co-workers who had to deal with bad service in the morning and are anxious about getting home later. So yeah…flexible working arrangements can be good even for people who don’t need them.

    (And yes, colleagues from the US, Canada and continental Europe have been mocking how transport grinds to a standstill in weather they don’t even consider that out of the ordinary, but fact of the matter is the infrastructure here just wasn’t built to deal with these conditions, it’s got nothing to do with how people here are just ‘soft’).

    1. bluelyon*

      I hear you on working in the office when nobody else is in- those are my favorite days. DC is having a wind-crisis today and there are four of us in my office. I’ve gotten so much more done with nobody yelling about coffee pots or walking by to distract me with a 3 minute question etc.

      1. Bostonian*

        Yes! I definitely choose my WFH days based on how quiet the office will be, when possible. Fridays are a great day to go in because 75% of the office isn’t there and the train isn’t packed in the morning :-)

      2. Future Analyst*

        Yes! I love working the week between Christmas and New Year’s day– I have most of the office to myself. :)

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        Agreed, if you don’t have enough plows or salt trucks for all of the roads then it really doesn’t matter how much snow you’re getting!

      2. Wren*

        Seattle being one. Sometimes we grind to a halt because it rains too much. Or is too sunny. Really, anything other than overcast with light drizzles.

        1. Merci Dee*

          Yep. Central Alabama stopped completely with 2 inches of snow in December, and with 4 inches of snow in January. Personally, I loved it. Though I told my daughter that she was witnessing a miracle, because I couldn’t even remember a time we’d gotten two rounds of snow in one winter, let along approximately 4 weeks apart.

      4. Managing to get by*

        The Seattle area shuts down with 1-2 inches of snow. No one knows how to drive in it and we don’t have the equipment to keep the hills drivable. I had to go in to the office the day after the last bit of snow – there was no traffic and my commute was great!

    3. Ama*

      Heh, for awhile I lived 4 blocks from my workplace during a year we both got a lot of snow/ice and had a new CEO who had relocated from California (we’re in the Northeast– that winter was bad but not cripplingly so aside from one major blizzard). So she was constantly declaring a “use your best judgment” day for bad weather that my coworkers with longer commutes were more than happy to do work from home for. At the time my significant other worked from home full-time so I’d just walk to work and have a nice quiet day at the office (plus they often bought us lunch if it was actively snowing so we wouldn’t have to go outside).

      Now I live far enough away that work from home is a lot more appealing (depending on if the transit by my house is functioning at normal levels or not), but we have a CEO who only calls for “judgment” days (hee) if it’s truly an epic storm or the peak will hit during the morning commute.

    4. HannahS*

      I’m Canadian, and I’m with you, the performance of toughness over cold weather is stupid and very irritating. Our cities are built to handle snow. We’re taught how to dive safely in snow and ice and freezing rain. We already own suitable clothing and footwear. Why on earth would a city unaccustomed to that kind of weather be prepared for it? When cold countries have heatwaves, people die in far higher numbers than they would in equivalent conditions in, like, the Caribbean, because our buildings aren’t built for it and people don’t know how to be safe in weather that hot.

      My theory is that when the place you live sucks, you need something to lord over other people. Each successively colder city I know of in Canada snarks on the less cold ones–so people from Manitoba make fun of Ontarians, and everyone just sh_ts on Vancouver, but it’s because we’re all jealous. Here’s a response I might use, to just take the fun away from the people ribbing you:
      “HAHA Londoners are so soft, you guys can’t even handle a bit of ice! In Winterfell, where I live, that’s t-shirt weather.”
      *look confused* “Well, yeah, obviously. London doesn’t deal with kind of weather regularly, so we don’t have the infrastructure for it.”

    5. boy oh boy*

      I work in London and have had a lucky few days – my train line has had minimal delays so travel has been simple, if a bit cold. Most of my co-workers have been on strike (unrelated to snow), WFH, ill, or on leave. It’s been very quiet.

      However yesterday, the entire computer networking system died for many hours, and the heating failed due to a leak. Emergency repairs this weekend!

      It has been a very strange week between the pickets, snow and general upheaval.

    6. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      I’ve got coworkers in London, I’ve heard a bit.

      I’ll gently mock anyone who can’t deal with normal or expected weather conditions where they live – and then tell them to figure it out. (If you live where it snows regularly yet you can’t drive in snow, LEARN.) But when you’re dealing with something that really is extraordinary, I get it. I might still tease you, but I do understand.

      Unless you’re my cousin in Florida who has a long history of complaining about lower temps in a nasty way. Then you get zero sympathy or patience from me.

      1. Specialk9*

        Floridians aren’t actually complaining about that ‘cold’ 60° weather in winter, they’re bragging.

    7. Liane*

      “(And yes, colleagues from the US, Canada and continental Europe have been mocking how transport grinds to a standstill in weather they don’t even consider that out of the ordinary, but fact of the matter is the infrastructure here just wasn’t built to deal with these conditions, it’s got nothing to do with how people here are just ‘soft’).”
      If it makes you feel any better, we Americans who live in parts of the US that get very little snow also receive lots of snarks about how we are “soft,” “lazy” or even “lacking work ethic” because we need to call out/work a shorter day/WFH for any amount of snow and ice because there’s no infrastructure for dealing with it. There are many examples of this in the comments on #3 in Wednesday’s Short Answer post. (link in reply)

    8. Thlayli*

      It’s happening where I am too. There was an expert panel on the tv talking about it and they made some really good points about why financially it makes more sense to just have a snow day once every 10 or 20 years than to buy snowplows and make everyone buy winter tyres etc, when you would literally only use them once every 10 or 20 years.

    9. Business Manager*

      Here in Boston where we have shitty weather all the time, and are currently having a once-in-a-generation storm for the second time this winter (But it’s rain not snow, so…), our transit system isn’t faring much better than yours. Because our state government refused to put more money into infrastructure.

    10. Anonymous Ampersand*

      All my work’s office across the whole of country closed. I am still shocked.

    11. Kelly*

      If it snowed like that where I am (Northern California, South of SF, North of San Jose), people would freak the F out.

    12. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      I had three snow days this week because there was so much snow that there would be absolutely no point being on site.

      I grew up in Colorado, now live in the UK, and it drives me slightly nuts when people mock the UK for its inability to cope with snow. Back home I was taught how to drive in snow and ice, always got snow tires or all-season tires, knew how to use tire chains if I really had to go somewhere treacherous, and the city had multiple snow plows working all day and night. But we got multiple big snowstorms (like 6-12 inches) every winter, and got huge spring storms that dumped several feet of snow fairly regularly.

      In the nearly 15 years I’ve lived in the UK we have had snow that actually piles up more than half an inch and sticks around for more than an hour maybe three times. It’s perfectly OK to just shut things down when a big storm does happen, because it’s not worth the money to get the equipment, hire extra people, redesign roads, get snow tires, etc. for something that only happens every 5 years or so. It doesn’t make the UK soft or stupid.

    13. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve been following The Beast from the East on Twitter and it’s bonkers. So many NHS people staying overnight so patients can get care. And one person I follow got the ONLY train out of Paddington station (to Cornwall) and tweeted the entire journey like, “It’s the only train and I’m on it!” “This plucky little train is going to make it!” and “I’M HOME!” It was hilarious.

      But this weather is no joke. Everyone stay safe and keep warm!! xx

  18. jstarr*

    My annual performance review is Monday and I crushed it this year. I’ve got glowing reviews from clients, hard data on hand, etc. I plan on asking for a raise or title change but here’s the issue: I’m in academia. Raises and promotions are almost unheard of here and this particular section of academia is known for having people bounce around to other schools in order to get raises. Is there anything else I can ask for perks wise that’s reasonable? We’re in a cubicle farm so an office with a door is out.

      1. jstarr*

        I’m already paid monthly so I sort of set my own hours and PTO is set by the university. :/
        Work from home would be nice but part of my job requires I be in the building for at least a day or two to access files.

        1. Annie Moose*

          What about working from home part of the week? We have several people at my office who are in the office one or two days a week but work from home the rest of the time.

    2. Katarina*

      A training that might otherwise be too expensive, conference in your field (with great network opportunities)?

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        Seconding a conference, especially if there’s one that you’ve been dying to go to in the past and they know it would be beneficial.

    3. copier queen*

      New computer, double monitors, new tablet or fancy smartphone?
      I second the comment on them sending you to a great conference (pick somewhere you’d want to visit anyway and tack on some vacation days before or after the conference).
      Also, I would ask for a raise anyway. It could be that raises are unheard of because the highest performers are sometimes getting them, but are asked to keep it confidential since it is not common to your org.

      1. jstarr*

        Our salaries are subject to open record requests so anyone with searching capability can figure out what we make.

        I think the conference might be a good idea.

    4. NoMoreMrFixit*

      former IT tech in academia here. New tech to play with, conferences and training were all perks. Getting to participate in special projects was considered the number one perk. I got to present at conferences and write white papers. Extra one shot duties as the opportunity arose. Same pay but some really cool variations in my day to day working life made it a lot more interesting and even fun to go to work. There was a point I actually enjoyed walking in on a Monday morning because there was so much variety and challenge.

  19. ThatGirl*

    Today is the one-year anniversary of my surprise layoff, which happened the afternoon before the rest of my 15-person team.

    It was not only a big surprise to us all but very weird/bad timing for me – I found out the afternoon before everyone else because I was due to be off the next day to travel for a vacation, and the same night, our water heater failed and leaked everywhere.

    But, I got to literally run away from my problems, then spent the spring/summer job searching, found a great new job last July and here I am. It’s closer to home, pays better, and is more interesting. So I’m happy.

    5. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

      Thanks for posting this! I always like to see stories about > life went to crap > then it got better then even before. It gives others in similar situations hope.

    6. [insert witty user name here]*

      Woo hoo! Glad everything worked out for you! It’s funny how that works out sometimes :)

      I was laid off from a job almost 10 years ago. At the time, I was devastated because I was young, had started to switch fields from what my major was, felt like I was going to have to move back in with my parents, and just didn’t know what to do since there aren’t a lot of opportunities in my small town. That first day, I cried a bit then got double stuff oreos and boxed mac and cheese. I literally ate said mac and cheese out of the pot and had myself a little pity party on the couch. I was a little despaired over the weekend, but then realized that between my small severance, PTO being paid out, and unemployment, I’d be fine for quite some time. I ended up being out of work for a little over two months and got a job from my sister’s former boss that ended up being a BIG salary bump and has turned into the career I’ve stayed and thrived in for about 10 years. I actually remember being a little shocked when I got the job so quickly and had to start within a couple days; I was like man, I am probably (hopefully??) never going to have a sabbatical like this again!!!

  20. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    I’m so excited!!!

    I applied for a job Monday. Had a phone interview Tuesday where I was immediately invited to an in person interview yesterday. I’m feeling oddly Zen about the whole thing (probably from reading this site…). I’ll know in a week or two if I move forward to the next, and final from what I was told, round of interviews.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Thank you!

        I initially fretted for a bit that the person I met with didn’t offer up a timeline of when I might hear back so I asked (because it’s me, I’m not happy unless I’m panicking about something…). But, one, it’s an extremely laid back company and, two, if I’m already ruled out…why in the world would I want to work somewhere that doesn’t want me?

  21. Poppy*

    Am I undermining myself as a woman by not initiating hand shakes? Had a team conference this week with folks from around the US (predominantly male). I noticed that the men tended to greet each other with a handshake, and give me a little wave. I suspect it’s because they are a little older and are more used to the etiquette of women initiating a handshake. I tend not to initiate because it seems a bit overly formal to me, and also, germs. But am I unknowingly undermining myself in this very male environment?

    1. dr_silverware*

      Maybe? But I think the more important issue is the awkwardness/non-awkwardness of the situation. If it’s an awkward, “uh, hi, haha, I guess we’re not shaking hands” kind of wave, that may be a weird note to start a business relationship with. If you’re forthright and friendly as you wave and introduce yourself, you’re probably ok.

      1. Specialk9*

        If the men are reaching out to shake hands and you’re not, then yes, you’re undermining yourself.

        1. Specialk9*

          Oh and this is from a woman who hates casual touch. But handshakes are just a thing one does, barring pain or cultural alterative like bowing.

          1. dr_silverware*

            I kind of agree (and I like handshaking, and I’m a woman) but I do think it’s possible to not shake hands. On the other hand it would require a lot of social skill and a dollop of charisma to not have it stand out weirdly.

    2. SoCalHR*

      I agree, as a female myself, I feel like sometimes men aren’t sure what to do when greeting a woman. If you confidently go for the handshake, I feel, it reduces the awkwardness. Also, it also serves to ‘assert’ myself as an equal party to the group as I am on the young-ish side and typically not the one leading the meeting (so I feel it helps me not appear as just the lovely silent assistant). Re: the germs – just keep hand sanitize in your purse I guess.

    3. Argh!*

      If you’re in a situation where two men would shake hands, then you should absolutely stick out your hand. They may not be hesitating because you’re a woman but because they sense your hesitation.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah this is my thought too. I never heard of this etiquette of women initiating but I think people are better at body language than you think so you may be giving off “don’t touch me” vibes without realising it.

    4. fposte*

      I don’t know about undermining, but I definitely think you should initiate handshakes. I suspect it seems overly formal mostly because you’re not used to it, since the men around you are doing it. It’s a basic greeting ritual that’s good to have in your armory, if only to fend off cheek-kissers.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      Initiate the handshake.

      Your concerns about germs are very real. Lots of men (gross) do not wash their hands after going to the bathroom. Just make sure you wash your hands before you eat.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I haven’t done a full-blown study. I just know anecdotally based on what I’ve seen in public restrooms. I’m not saying you, as a man, aren’t washing your hands. I’m talking about other men.

        2. Thlayli*

          There was a study where they put peanuts outside restrooms in a bar and within an hour they had traces of 20 different peoples urine on them. So lots of people don’t wash – I don’t know if men wash less than women, but I do know men tend to physically touch their genitals when they pee while women just wipe with toilet paper. So that alone would indicate men who don’t wash probably have more germs on their hands than women who don’t wash.

          (For cisgender people obviously).

    6. KR*

      I hate handshakes and I have small hands which are easily dwarfed by the average men’s hand so if I’m not offered a handshake I don’t do it, professional consequences be damned. I just make sure I make eye contact and give the person a solid “Hello, nice to meet you.”

    7. LilySparrow*

      There’s also body language and verbal initiation. Do you introduce yourself, or were other people introducing you?

      In most cases, I don’t really see one person initiating a handshake “cold.” It’s two people sort of moving toward each other while exchanging names.

      If you’re just standing there with your hands folded, or something, it is going to seem awkward or unwelcome for someone to stick their hand at you. Particularly if you’re letting someone else speak for you.

      It’s automatic for me to lean forward, put my hand out, and say my name all at the same time. Or if I’m with someone *very* senior who is introducing their team, I’ll do the lean-and-reach while saying, “nice to meet you,” or “hi.”

      I find that initiating handshakes seems to put everyone else at ease, especially in situations that could be ambiguous, like a networking lunch or running into a colleague by chance and being introduced to their companions.
      It just provides clarity and context.

      Most folks do feel momentary awkwardness or uncertainty when meeting people, and are quite happy to have someone make a decisive gesture.

      You can always get more casual after a handshake, but it’s hard to warm up after an awkward wave.

      1. Lehigh*

        Yep, I agree with this.

        Additionally, for *some* of the men, they may be feeling awkward because in some social circles the men shake hands with each other and hug the women. It would be inappropriate to hug you at work, but the handshake may not come as automatically as it does with other men.

        1. Mimi*

          “The men shake hands with each other and hug the women”? It is completely the other way around in my social circle! The guys hug each other and unless the woman initiates a hug they will shake her hand.

          1. Lehigh*

            Oh, that’s interesting! Yes, among most people I know the women hug each other and the men. The men typically shake hands with each other, unless they are particularly close (then they hug, too).

    8. MissDisplaced*

      I’m not sure it’s undermining, but I do sort of see this as possibly showing a lack of confidence.
      I’me very introverted myself, but early on in my career I learned to not be afraid to introduce myself and present an outstretched hand and give a firm handshake more along the lines of a the way a man would do it.
      I don’t know if it makes men respect me more, but at least I know I made the effort.

      And I have to admit, I hate when women have weak, floppy or limp handshakes. I’ve found a lot of women actually turn their hand palm downward in a handshake. What’s that all about?
      And don’t get me started about the awkward European style kiss-kiss greetings!

  22. Travel mug?*

    My workplace is rolling out a new policy for food and drink in work areas and as a result, I need a new mug. I would appreciate recommendations!

    Must be:
    Spill-proof (e.g. with lock-on or screw-on lid, or otherwise advertised as spill-proof)
    Ceramic or glass (for the interior, at least)

    I would prefer it to be on the small side — coffee mug-sized rather than tall take-out coffee-sized. Aesthetically-pleasing is also a plus!

      3. Travel mug?*

        Those are lovely, but it seems like you have to choose between leak-proof and ceramic? I really would like something that is both, and I’m increasingly uncertain that it exists.

      5. Ama*

        Yeah my contigo has never ever leaked when it’s closed even though I throw it into a tote bag in the morning in which it does not always stay upright. Actually I knocked it over once on my desk when the top was open and it only spilled a few drops before I got it righted, because the opening is pretty small.

      6. Margaret*

        Yes! The only complaint I have about my Contigo mug though is that it doesn’t fit well in the Keurig so I have to awkwardly tilt it in. As an accident prone person it works well.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I agree contigo has some great options, I also highly recommend hydroflasks, which come in all shapes and sizes and are great for hot or cold drinks.

      1. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

        I love my Hydro Flask! My husband got me a new one for Xmas, with the straw cap. I use it for coffee. If the straw is closed, it does not spill. As a matter of fact, I knocked it over with the straw flipped up and it barely dribbled.
        Expensive – and totally worth it!

    4. TheCupcakeCounter*

      The best one I have is contigo as well but it is very tall and slim. Ceramic inside, metal outside. Multi-thread screw on lid with an additional twist opening. It literally fell over in my bag completely full and not a drop spilled.

      1. Travel mug?*

        Sounds dreamy. Looks like they’re still available in the wild, even though they’re not on the Contigo website.

    5. CAA*

      Have a look at Keepcup. They have glass cups that are sized more like mugs with plastic sealing lids.

      1. Travel mug?*

        I really like the look of those. Not technically spill-proof but I doubt anyone would inspect closely enough to call me on it….

        1. London Actuary*

          I have a glass one which is spill proof. There’s a thing on the lid that you can rotate to cover the drinking hole.

          However as much as I like my mug, it’s very difficult (for me) to get the lid off. I spilt tea down my front yesterday trying.

    6. NW Mossy*

      I was all excited to evangelize for the Zojirushi insulated mugs (more of a canister shape, really – think slightly slimmer than a S’well water bottle), but I don’t think it’ll work for you because they’re metal inside and out. I’ll still add the recommendation here, though, in case someone’s looking for a spill-proof option – I’ve had mine for a couple of years and it’s only spilled when I’ve overfilled it. It has a locking lid and I’ve never seen so much as a drip, which for messy me is the holy grail of coffee receptacles.

      1. Lindsay J*

        I’ll add that I’ve been using Corksicle Canteens, and I like them a lot. Screw on lid. I carry mine around in my bag and it doesn’t leak. I have ice in my drink at the end of the day like 12 hours after I filled it. I’ve never tried them with hot, but they’re advertised to keep things hot for 8 hours I believe.

        I just like the form-factor better than my Contigo. Also, the one I have holds 24 oz which means I have to refill it less often, and fits ice cubes unlike some other options (and is wide enough to fit a bottle cleaning sponge through it). I usually make iced tea in mine (ice, agave sweetener, lemon juice, teabag, cold water).

        And we threw one really hard against a brick pillar (long story) and while the outside had a significant dent in it, the inside was not misshapen at all and it still works perfectly.

        1. Specialk9*

          I read a magazine that said Corksicles hold a full bottle of wine, so a restaurant used it to keep white wine cold outside in the heat. I have several of them and it makes me smile. Mine just has water, I swear!

      2. Epiee*

        Zojirushi mugs are awesome but they almost keep things too hot. I have made coffee in the morning, put it in my mug, and decided to drink it at 3 p.m. and burned my tongue! That is amazing but I definitely wouldn’t recommend drinking coffee you just made out of one, or coffee that you are going to keep covered continuously when it isn’t being consumed.

        They are perfect for bringing in the rest of a pot of coffee from home that’s had a chance to sit, or if you can pour it into a normal mug at your destination.

        1. Specialk9*

          I have that problem with most of my insulated mugs. It just means I make coffee or tea and then make sure it’s actually a drinkable temp before putting on the lid (with water, milk, ice cube). As opposed to making coffee too hot on the assumption it’ll cool down over the day.

    7. Elizabeth H.*

      Contigo. Contigo. Contigo. You can store them upside down full of coffee in your purse. They have all different sizes. The 14 oz size is pretty small. I’m not sure they get smaller than that though.

    8. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      I have a Bubba Brand Insulated Stanless Steel Travel Mug with TasteGuard and I LOVE IT! I put my hot coffee in it around 7:40 am, and it’s still hot at 10:00 am. I also knock it over or drop it all the time (I’m clumsy) and it doesn’t spill.

    9. Not a Morning Person*

      How are they planning to police the inside of the mug? And what’s the reasoning that the inside must be glass or ceramic? That seems oddly specific.
      I’ve been trying to find a mug that will be spill-proof, keep coffee warm and also work in a microwave. No luck.
      But I really am curious about the fact that the office specified the material for the inside of the mug. What’s that about?

    10. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      For some reason, TK Maxx here in the UK has a huge selection of travel mugs and water bottles. Perhaps check out TJ Maxx, Ross, Marshall’s, or similar, if you have one in your area?

    11. foolofgrace*

      Stanley makes a couple of travel mugs that I can swear are absolutely spillproof. But they’re not ceramic or coffee-cup sized, For me I’ll take absolutely spillproof every time. Check Amazon.

    12. Casuan*

      Tervis Tumbler.
      There’s a large selection of styles & designs. Very high-grade acrylic that will serve for cold or hot beverages. Microwave-safe unless the design has metallic elements.
      An excellent exchange policy if the product gets damaged.
      Not glass or ceramic although I thought I’d mention it anyway. :-)

  23. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    What’s the most embarrassing thing that you did or happened at work?

    Recently I was listening to the “It” audiobook and, well, I was in the open office at work…got to the worst bit and and made a weird yelping sound that sounded like a dog being murdered, because I was trying to stifle a scream! Then everyone wondered if I was ok and I had to explain!

    2. Opulent Octopus*

      This was some years ago now, but I’m still mortified. My husband and I worked opposite schedules, so I often got dressed pretty much in the dark. I had a pair of dress pants that didn’t have any zippers or pockets. I got to work early so it was just my boss and I in the office. We talked for about five minutes, and I looked down and slowly came to the realization that my pants were on inside out. I have no idea if she noticed or not but I was so mortified. I ended the convo pretty abruptly, backed out of her office and dashed to the bathroom to fix it. I’m cringing now at the memory.

      1. another person*

        My mom wears her clothes inside out all the time (and has my whole life). Also backwards. To the point that we call wearing our clothes inside out “pulling a [mom’s name]” in our family. She also was a teacher and sometimes wouldn’t notice until she got to school and one of the kids would point it out to her.

      2. No Parking or Waiting*

        Just imagine you’ve walked the length of the building in the morning (half a city block), being greeted by name, by half a dozen people, until you reach your desk, to be told by cube mate that there’s something sticking out of your pant leg.
        Now imagine looking down at the cuff your black pant leg to see pastel panties with elastic edges, looking KMart as h3ll not peeking out, but half hanging out, about to fall on the floor.
        Oh yeah, inside out pants? Amateur.

        1. The Grammarian*

          I remember this happening to me in high school. I’m cringing just thinking about the granny panties coming out of my flared jeans leg.

      3. LurkNoMore*

        The inside out shirt just happened to me and yes, it’s because of getting dressed in the dark! I’m in sales and one of my buyers never reserves a room to meet in, so we end up getting bumped from room to room – up and down stairs. Once we settled for the 4 time, I removed my ‘uniform’ cardigan sweater over a crepe blouse because I was warm from hauling my crap all over the building. It was at least 20 minutes before I noticed a wayward thread in a strange place and then made the realization. I quietly slipped on my sweater, even though I was still schvitzing.

      4. Specialk9*

        I’m fascinated by the fact that you were so embarrassed. I’ve done that with shirts aplenty, and it’s just a chuckle and, ‘oh hey I shouldn’t be allowed to dress myself before coffee’. And I’m someone who squirms with embarrassment at dumb things I did, like it’s my job. Somehow that one isn’t even a thing for me.

        1. Opulent Octopus*

          You know those people who sometimes wake suddenly in a cold sweat, having had a nightmare about a mildly awkward thing they said 20 years ago in middle school? That’s me. I’m those people. I also had a bad case of imposter syndrome at the time, and I think it was one of those moments where it was like “wow, you can’t even get dressed properly, you truly are a worthless sack of garbage and everyone knows you’re just a kid in a grownup suit.” I’ve, uh, improved.

      5. Emilie*

        I have days (especially if I have very early classes or shifts at work), where I’ll go to the bathroom during the day and realize, that I’m wearing my underwear back-to-front. Luckily noone can see that I’ve managed to dress myself about as well as a toddler, but it feels horribly akward having to strip down in the bathroom to correct the mistake. But it’s a good indicator that it won’t be one of my most productive days…

    3. Annie Mouse*

      I’ve fallen out of ambulances a few times. In front of patients, coworkers and while on the phone to managers. You would think after 5 years I’d have learnt where the blinking step is!!

    4. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I split my pants at work once. They were my oldest pair (and if I am honest I had gained a few lbs) and I squatted down to pick something up and RIP – belt loop to mid crotch. Best part is I was wearing lime green undies with a leopard print lace waist.

      1. Wardrobe malfunction*

        And this is why I always have a sweat jacket at work. I can wear it when I’m cold, or tie it around my waist if I split my pants. (Which did, indeed, happen once. A similar situation to you, except the undies weren’t lime green with a leopard print lace waist.)

      2. Elizabeth H.*

        I split pants also! At a work training! They were corduroy pants and quite old and I think I did it while riding my bike there. I didn’t notice till I got up to use the bathroom at lunch. NOBODY SAID ANYTHING. Why?? Thank god I was wearing black underwear because I often do not wear underwear at all. I shudder to think of it.

    5. Recently Diagnosed*

      I work around a lot of high level execs, but have not actually met many of them in person. We communicate through emails, and there isn’t a lot of co-mingling to put face with names. Well, one day I’m at my computer and this gentleman walks in, requesting information. I have never seen this man before in my life. He asks me to email him some information about an account. I respond “I’ll be happy to! Forgive me, what’s your name?” He gives me a bemused look, smiles, and says “Fergus Ferguson?” Like that, like a question, like he can’t believe I don’t know his face. He was, of course, the COO. I was so embarrassed!

    6. another person*

      My boss and my dog have the same first syllable of their name, however my dog’s name is clearly not a human name, and my boss knows that it is the name of my dog. The number of times I have called my boss by my dog’s name is WAY TOO HIGH (I mean, once would be bad enough, but this happens several times a year to his face).

    7. Temperance*

      I once sat in bus deodorizer and didn’t realize FOR HOURS that I was the stinky one in the room. I kept wondering exactly why I smelled bus everywhere I went. Did I mention that I went to an offsite meeting?

      (For those of you not in Philly, Philly buses have a particular smell. That’s how I smelled.)

    8. Goya de la Mancha*

      Plenty, but most recently – tried to hold back a sneeze and ended up passing gas instead…

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Ha! A few weeks ago I was doing yoga and was in a knees to chest pose…farted. Loudly. No warning.

        1. Goya de la Mancha*

          I don’t know which is worse? The “oh crap here it comes and I can’t stop it” feeling? or the “Where the hell did that come from?”

        2. Future Analyst*

          I’ve been in my share of yoga classes with people who loudly fart… and then I’m giggling on my mat like a weirdo. Idk what it is, but I can’t NOT laugh at a fart.

          2. Sci Fi IT Girl*

            Me either – no matter how formal, well dressed I am, the meeting audience, etc. If someone lets one go I giggle. Just time machine me back to age 6. And when I try to stifle the giggle and draw in “must be grown up” it gets even worse.

    9. Can't Sit Still*

      I was wearing a brand new wraparound skirt when it suddenly completely unwrapped (something unraveled, IIRC.) The co-worker I shared an office with was helping me pin it/sew it back on, when a manager from another department opened the door, saw co-worker on her knees with her hand up my skirt, said “I’ll come back later,” and gently shut the door. Co-worker and I laughed about it for days afterwards. I think we ended up stapling the stupid skirt together for the day, plus some strategic binder clips.

      1. Traveling Teacher*

        This story has just made my day–this is eleven types of fabulous. That reply! I’m dying!

    10. Ann Furthermore*

      Way back at the dawn of my career in the Dark Ages (the 80’s), when everyone was wearing shoulder pads with everything, I had a sweater on one day with velcro shoulder pads. I was in someone’s cube, leaning over their desk, talking about something, and it fell out onto the guy’s desk. It was light pink. From the horrified look on his face I’m pretty sure his first thought was that it was some sort of feminine hygiene product. I said, “Oh, excuse me,” and picked it up and stuck it in my pocket.

      And the day that I was sitting at my desk, working away, and looked down to realize that one of the underwires in my bra had poked through the fabric, worked its way out of my top, and was arced in a big half-circle over my boob was the day I learned that there are some things you should be willing to spend money on instead of buying them on sale at K-Mart. Bras are one of those things.

    11. Thlayli*

      Not me but a friend of mine once messed up his email signature and sent emails all day signed
      “Retards,
      Fergus”

    12. Dankar*

      I ordered a dozen graduation sashes with the Denmark flag on them for students who’d participated in one of our abroad programs. I was proud of how quickly I’d gotten through the process for all the different countries (purchasing, coding and wrangling trip leaders for authorization) and was boxing them up for the big day.

      It didn’t click until that moment that the students had been studying in Amsterdam. Which is definitely NOT the capital of Denmark. I had to go inform the Director of International Ed (my boss) that I hadn’t realized what country they’d been in for the program.

      1. Emilie*

        This is hillarious, and the sort of mistake I would totally be able to make as well (my ability to group Eastern European countries with their capitals are embarassingly poor)! I’m picturing that your brain has a box labelled “Countries; flat, tall people, obsessed with biking”, where the two – understandably – got mixed up.

        To paraphrase a danish comedian; “Danmark? That’s the capital of IKEA, right?”

    13. Traveling Teacher*

      I’ve already shared the most embarrassing on another open thread, but the second most embarrassing was the time I got my period at work, had no idea (I was only 16), and walked through the entire store with a giant red patch on my rear. An elderly customer finally flagged me down and told me. So embarrassing!

    14. Brunch with Sylvia*

      Felt some tummy pain and stood up to go to the ladies room and promptly pooped my pants..big time! I was wearing business casual clothes but work in a hospital so I called up to the ICU and a (dear) friend brought me a bath pack and some scrubs (which paired not so nicely with my sensible pumps).

    15. Totally Minnie*

      I went to a meeting with some Very Important People, including my boss and the three bosses above her. We took a short break and I went to use the restroom, where I realized that my blouse had been inside out all morning.

  24. keto girl*

    I follow the keto diet. This means sometimes I am in ketosis and it makes me smell. I wear clean clothes and shower each morning and brush my teeth. But I can’t help that it makes me and my breath stink. It’s just the way it is. My boss told me I need to do something because people have been complaining about the smell and the person I shared an office with quit and no one wants to share an office or be near me.

    I know I smell sometimes. I think they are overstating it because it isn’t that bad. I’m not prepared to stop keto and the smell comes with it. Anyone have a script I can use when talking to my boss? Thanks in advance.

    1. Temperance*

      There has to be something you can do to mitigate the smell, and the impact on your coworkers. I know it’s hard to hear, but people who stink don’t necessarily always realize how bad it is.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah, keto girl you don’t want to accept that you smell very very very bad. But you’re the office pariah because you smell so bad. Denying the situation isn’t going to help you. This is on you to resolve.

        1. Emilie*

          This is not very constructive – or nice. I can completely understand that you might have strong feelings on this topic because of personal experiences, but I think your comment is borderline mocking Keto Girl.

          1. Twin city twin*

            It’s not mocking to state the facts. It may not be “nice” but it’s honest and keto girl sounds like she needs that more than anything!

    2. Colette*

      It’s affecting your job, so it is that bad. Our brains will stop paying attention to things we smell all the time, so you won’t be able to judge the smell accurately yourself. I strongly recommend that you take steps to mitigate the smell – your coworkers are avoiding being near you, and that will harm your career.

    3. ThatGirl*

      I don’t think you get to decide what “isn’t that bad” for other people. That said, if it’s your breath specifically, can you use breath mints, or drink more water, or something along those lines?

    4. CM*

      First, don’t argue about the level of the problem. People (plural) are complaining so it is bad. We generally can’t smell ourselves as well as others can because we get used to it. You can defiantly tell your boss that stopping the diet is not an option for health reasons. Then, talk to a nutritionist to get advice on how to mitigate the smell. You can also use some sugarless mints to freshen your breath or even chew on some mint leaves.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think they are overstating it because it isn’t that bad.

      This is … probably unlikely. Most people dread bringing up a colleague’s odor issues, so if they’re raising it, it’s because it’s a problem!

      That said, if the diet is something you’re doing for medical reasons, you can point that out and probably get some protection that way. But I’d be prepared for the reality that it’s likely to impact how you’re perceived at work, so you want to factor that in as you think about this. (You may not care! But don’t tell yourself it’s not really a big deal.)

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I know someone–head of a small company, normally the model of social IQ–who paid his wife to tell an employee she stank. It has to be really, really bad to get to the level that anyone will say anything, and OP you have multiple people willing to speak up–that suggests it is extreme.

        2. Emi.*

          My favorite part of this story is that the wife wouldn’t do it as a personal favor to her OWN HUSBAND—this was so awkward she insisted on being paid.

          1. Temperance*

            In all fairness, HE found it so unpleasant that he had his wife do it! This whole thing is hilarious to me.

          1. Emilitron*

            I’m imagining the ad in the “gigs” section of Craigslist: Social Oddjobs – I will convey awkward information and have uncomfortable conversations on your behalf! $50 per conversation.

            1. Elizabeth H.*

              I would be happy to do that. I am superb at doing that with other people’s problems! Other people’s problems are always easy to deal with, while my own are intractable. :D

            2. Emilie*

              There’s a german movie called Schlussmacher (The Break-Up Man is the english title), about this guy who runs a company where he is paid by people to break up with their partners for them. There’s also a guy named Thorsten and a rather large potted plant involved.

          2. K.*

            Me too. I’m good at breaking bad news, and hey, I don’t have to work with the person!

      2. Marie B.*

        Honest question, I swear I am not trolling. Say keto girl is following the diet for medical reasons or a medical condition and she is protected. How does that work if the smell is so bad people are quitting rather than working with her. I’m not familiar with employment law and medical protection so I am just wondering how it works. Where does someone’s protection end if it infringes on another? Thank you to anyone who answers.

        1. Juli G.*

          I’m thinking the company should attempt to reasonably accommodate her – can she have a private or out of the way workspace, call into meetings instead of sitting in small places, if it’s customer/client facing then is there a comparable role that doesn’t.

          As IANAL, I’m not sure where the line blurs if the company is pushing the accommodations as opposed to the employee. You would to probably consult a lawyer first, define a very specific accommodation process, and proceed cautiously.

          1. Lance*

            That’s what I would think… but beyond that, it wouldn’t do anything to any hits to her reputation amongst her co-workers. Accommodations aside, it would be best for all parties if she found some way to effectively contain the smell, along with dropping the line of thinking that ‘I don’t think it’s a big deal, so it’s not’ when other people clearly do think it’s a big deal.

        2. Elizabeth H.*

          I got the impresssion that it was more that her coworker quit for unrelated reasons, and now nobody is willing to move into the vacant space.

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      I think they are overstating it because it isn’t that bad.

      You really, really, really don’t know this. It’s very hard to detect your own odor–humans adapt to anything, and filter out what’s not ‘new’ information.

      Are you following a keto diet because your doctor insists it is medically necessary? If so ask them for advice. If not, then I think you need to consider that ’emitting horrible smells’ is not usually a sign that your body is responding well to what you’re doing to it.

      1. Anita-ita*

        Smelling is a very normal part of being in ketosis – it doesn’t mean that our bodies aren’t responding well to the diet.

        1. ThatGirl*

          If you’re diabetic, being in ketoacidosis (and having that smell) is a very bad thing indeed.

          Obviously in other situations YMMV.

          1. Adam*

            Ketosis and ketoacidosis are two different things. Ketosis as part of the keto diet (what keto girl is going through) is not harmful or evidence of a problem.

            1. ThatGirl*

              I know, that was a bit tangential I’ll grant you. They are related, though. And both come with funky smells.

      2. Specialk9*

        I’m pretty skeptical that a doctor would recommend a keto diet. But then again, doctors are *terrible* sources of nutritional advice. Get a good RDN and stick with them, and ignore doctors and online fads.

    7. Cookie Monster*

      I think it depends on whether or not you are doing a keto diet for medical reasons. I know people who are on keto diets because there is documented, legitimate medical research that it mitigates their conditions. If that’s the case, I think you have more ground to stand on here. However, if you’re on the diet for personal or non-medical weight loss reasons, then it might be a little harder to push back, especially if the smell is impacting your coworkers to the point where they bring it to your boss/no one wants to be near you.

      1. Marshmellin*

        What is non-medical weight loss? Are you asking if ketogirl is already a normal weight? Why would that matter?

        I agree she needs to work on doing what she can to mitigate and contain, but even if she’s within the normal weight range for her height, her diet can still be related to her health.

        1. Bleeborp*

          It would matter- if she just wants to weigh less and she does not have a doctor suggesting they lose weight, then it’s not “medical” in the sense that would help her argue her case as easily. Plenty of people desire weight loss who are not overweight and that would just make her case harder. It would be much more clear cut for ketogirl if there were a specific condition that she was treating with the diet, not just weight loss because that may or may not be something medically necessary or at the very least there will be some debate about if it’s something that requires accommodation (not to mention there are lots of other diets out there for weight loss that do not make you smell weird.)

          1. Betsy*

            I think if it’s for medical reasons, like epilepsy, then of course it’s understandable and work might need to make some accommodations like a single office away from others.

            However, it does seem inconsiderate to be on a diet that would make you smell if it’s not for medical reasons. If, for example, I wanted to be on some kind of diet that would make me highly flatulent most of the time, then I consider the impact on others.

    8. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I think you need to be the one to make some adjustments. This isn’t something you can’t control; it’s something you’re choosing. And it’s apparently a significant problem for your colleagues.

      So I think you need to be prepared with some suggestions that inconvenience *you*, like: move cubes (and accept that you might be in an undesirable location), shower mid-day, only follow keto on weekends and/or work from home days, etc.

      The conversation could go like this: “Boss, thank you for telling me that folks have been commenting on the way my body smells. So you know, that’s a side effect of a diet I’m currently following. I’ve been doing my best to mitigate the smell but I can see that it’s not working well enough. How about I move to that empty cube downstairs while I figure out a new routine that I hope will improve the situation?”

      1. Anita-ita*

        You cannot pick and choose which days to follow a keto diet – it defeats the purpose. Initially, it takes a couple of weeks for your body to go into full ketotis and any addition of non keto foods will bring you out of ketotis. The idea behind the keto diet is to change the way your body runs – which is off of fat and protein instead of carbs and sugar. You would not be following a keto diet if you only did it on the weekends.

        I second the comments on seeking advice from a nutritionist, preferably someone who specializes in keto diets.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Yes, I’m familiar with the keto diet.

          But you can’t come to work smelling so badly that your colleagues can’t sit next to you. So ketogirl needs to make adjustments (either in her diet or her workplace — and those adjustments might need to be drastic, like changing her diet or choosing a different job).

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I just did a quick Google search for keto diet and body odors.

      It’s temporary, be sure to explain that.

      Sites offer suggestions such as regular exercise to make yourself sweat and push stuff out. Another site recommended soaking in salt baths. I think if you look around you might find an idea that works for you.

      For breath problems I see the recommendation for natural gums, I know you can find breath mints in health food stores also.

      Again, be sure that people understand it will pass and you are working on it.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        The phrase “sometimes I’m in ketosis” makes me wonder if she is going on and off, and so hitting the horrible smell period over and over? It also seems like if someone has already quit, and multiple people have already complained, this isn’t something that’s been in issue for 3-5 days.

        1. CM*

          She said that the person who used to share the office with her quit but did not say that it was related to the smell. She said it in the context of no one else wanted the desk.

        2. Aria is Not My Name*

          Yes, this stuck out to me as well, as someone who has been in ketosis for months. Smelling is normal during the first couple of weeks. Not for months on end.
          (Also, I work from home so I did not offend anyone!)

    10. CatCat*

      I think you need a plan to address it and then explain to your boss that you are taking steps to address the issue. Some ideas:
      – If it’s a body odor, when you visit the restroom, take baby wipes and deodorant with you and just give yourself a quick wipe down and refresh deodorant.
      – If it’s just breath, try mint. Like mint tea or even keep a mint plant at your desk (I used to have one that I grazed upon).
      – Get an air purifier. They can be pricey and maybe your boss would be amenable to the purchase for the office. “Boss, I am taking steps to address the body and breath odor issues. In addition to those steps, I would like to suggest that the office purchase an air purifier that I could put in my area. I could research air purifiers and find out which ones are most effective.” (And then research it, internet, consumer reports, etc. if the boss is amenable.)

    11. bb-great*

      Echoing everyone else that you really can’t say your coworkers are overstating the smell. You don’t get to decide what level of smell your coworkers have to endure so you can stay on your diet.

      How long have you been keto? The smell shouldn’t last indefinitely; if it’s been more than a few weeks or months, something’s off. Try adjusting your diet to have less protein and more fat, as the excess protein can cause the smell as well. I personally had to switch to a stronger deodorant but I don’t smell any worse than usual unless I’m actively sweating.

    12. paul*

      If you’re getting multiple complaints about it, I think you need to accept it’s a noticeable thing. Don’t try to minimize it or act like it’s not an issue.

    13. Phoebe B*

      Script: “Boss, I am mortified that my odour is affecting my coworkers so badly. I’m really sorry about that. I am taking these steps to avoid this being a problem in future (list steps). Again, I apologise for this and understand how unpleasant it has been.”

      And then do whatever you can to fix it (breath products, nutritionist advice, changing your diet…).

      You don’t mention this diet being something you are doing under medical advice due to a condition, but if it is you may be able to get some protection under that. If you go that route, do still be aware that this really is unpleasant for your coworkers and it is not at all unreasonable of them to be unhappy about the situation. This is a very real problem, and you are going to have to deal with it one way or another. Your boss has told you that, and refusing is not an option.

    14. Triplestep*

      This is a diet with a following, so there have to multiple message boards where people post about all things Keto. I would search for answers there. If it’s really the diet causing the problem, you’re not alone.

    15. Master Bean Counter*

      Green tea is a great natural breath neutralizer. Using Epsom salts in a bath is reported to help pull toxins out. At the very least if an Epsom salt soak can tame my stinky feet, it might be an option for you.

    16. LilySparrow*

      If the smell is supposed to be temporary and isn’t dissipating, you might have an issue with your clothes. Fabrics, especially synthetics, can hold onto smells through ordinary laundering.

      Try pre-soaking your laundry in cold water with a cup of baking soda and using a detergent formulated for sports/activewear.

      1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

        My work clothes can get really nasty because I sweat a lot sometimes doing manual labour in them. I got some flowery smelling disinfectant and put it in the laundry with the regular soap and it fixed the funk. Perhaps something like this could help? I tend to wear a lot of synthetic thermal stuff so it was certainly a factor for me.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Oh, this is a good point. Her clothes may be holding the smell. I used to work at a steakhouse and it was impossible to get the food scent out of my work clothes with just regular laundering.

        1. Specialk9*

          White vinegar in the wash. It smells like vinegar while doing laundry but after it’s clean and fresh.

    17. Ann Furthermore*

      My husband and I are both on the keto diet. It does make your breath stink. The best way to combat that is to drink tons of water. Tons. It helps with your breath, and it’s good for you too.

    18. Earthwalker*

      I read once that some dentists will test breath on request. Maybe yours could tell you if it’s serious or not.

  25. Future Homesteader*

    This morning’s conversation about clothes that are comfy/will accommodate fluctuations in waistlines got me thinking. I’m just finishing my first trimester, and while I definitely don’t fit into regular pants anymore, I bought a couple of maternity dresses online and at the moment, they fit like flour sacks. I’m sure I’ll need them later, but I work in a fancy-side-of-business-casual office in a front-facing role. Does anyone have suggestions for in-between clothes, or something that will look professional now but expand with me? I don’t want to spend a lot of money for something I’m only going to wear a few weeks, but I’m also pretty uncomfortable in my pre-pregnancy wardrobe (even my forgiving shirts no longer fit my bust).

    1. SoCalHR*

      What about those dress clips (yes, that older ladies wear and/or from the 80’s), but maybe something to temporarily take in your maternity clothes for now? Or even safety pins on the inside of garments? Or does putting on a tighter cardigan/jacket with the looser dress help the problem?

      1. Specialk9*

        I relied on eBay, and wrap dresses. I still wear my maternity wrap dresses, bc they are just wrap dresses. (You can wear a tank under for modesty or if you get super busty). Jessica Simpson maternity is also very comfortable and flattering.

        Gap has amazing maternity trousers, and I can’t usually wear Gap. (Uh I still wear my black maternity trousers too, bc so comfy — I love the over-belly black panel that nobody sees.)

        I don’t wear wrap cardigans usually, but for pregnancy it’s a good option.

    2. Forking Great Username*

      Maternity dress pants that have a high waist made out of super stretchy material worked for me for most of my pregnancy. Another option if your regular pants fit unbuttoned is a “belly band” – basically a strip of thick fabric you wear around the top of your pants to keep things in place when you can no longer button them up.

      1. E*

        Belly band saved me for those months where regular clothes almost fit except I couldn’t button pants. I just wore longer shirts over the pants, but also the belly band ends up looking like a camisole layered under your shirt, because of the bottom few inches showing if your shirt is shorter.

      1. Future Homesteader*

        Will have to buy a belt, but that’s a good idea! (I’m a very pants/shell/cardigan kinda lady, this is going to mean exploring my wardrobe options more…not a bad thing, really.)

        1. Specialk9*

          Target has awesome skinny patent belts – I have one in every color of my wardrobe. Otherwise, braided elastic belts for under 10 dollars on Amazon.

    4. Juli G.*

      Consider getting a few things in a size up. Not everyone is the same but I used mine in earlier pregnancy and in the first months back to work after baby because I don’t have Beyoncé’s trainer. And for me, even returning to pre baby weight didn’t make my button downs fit while still nursing.

      I also planned for (and had) a second pregnancy, so they got more use.

      2. Specialk9*

        Oh, and ruching. You’ll notice that plus size and maternity items both rely heavily on ruching – the gathered materials on the side seams that creates little horizontal drapeys, skimming over some areas and leaving room for a pregnant belly to expand (without looking dumb when smaller).

        The miracle of ruching is that a child or frat boy could manage it. Start with a shirt that is a little long and a bit loose, and better with a kind of drapey fabric (t-shirt material, jersey, knits).

        Get a needle and thread, tie a good knot, turn the shirt inside out, and start a couple inches up on the side seam – just go up the side seam (in and out every 1 inch), then stop a hand width from the armpit; pull the thread and push the fabric until it’s as ruched as you like; tie a good knot and cut. Repeat on the other seam.

        After the pregnancy, you can just snip the thread, and return to the original shirt, nobody the wiser.

    5. Sopranistin*

      I am 13 weeks pregnant with the same issue! In between regular and maternity sizes. I bought a Bellaband (made by Ingrid & Isabel) from Amazon. It’s a stretchy band that you wear over the waistline of your pants so you can wear your regular pants unbuttoned/unzipped. To the outside, it just looks like an undershirt peeking out from under your blouse. It’s also supposed to be good to hold up maternity pants that you haven’t filled out yet and post-pregnancy as you lose weight. I’m pretty happy with it, it works with all the pants I have, jeans to dress pants. I’m thinking of buying a 2nd in another color.
      As for dresses, could you try a wrap dress? You could tie it tighter now, but it will have room to expand later once your bump is bigger.
      I haven’t delved into maternity wear yet, but I’m thinking flowy blouses in a stretchy material will be able to last throughout pregnancy.

      1. straws*

        I loved my Bellaband! I lived in mine both pre- & post-pregnancy. I also second the recommendation of a belt further upthread.

        1. Future Homesteader*

          Alas, between the severe nausea and a general hypersensitivity to clothing, the band has not been my friend. :-( I bought one and haven’t actually managed to wear it once. Even the maternity pants cause a little extra stomach upset because of their panels. Hopefully this will abate as the nausea and vomiting do…

          1. Specialk9*

            Oh hon, so much sympathy!!!

            I lived on ginger candies from World Market, and real strong ginger beer (the Jamaican soda, non-alcoholic).

          2. Slartibartfast*

            You can take a hair tie or rubber band through the button hole and loop the ends over the button. Depending on the band and if you fold it in half and loop both ends on the button, or loop it through itself and one end over the button, you can gain 1 to 3 inches in the waist.

    6. Natalie*

      A friend of mine just got through this stage and she had good success with maternity leggings with regular dresses and skirts. I guess the maternity leggings fit better than the maternity pants on a first trimester abdomen.

    7. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I posted this in the comments there as well but I bought New York & Company’s pull on pants for the first half of my pregnancy. They will also be great for post delivery as you are losing the weight so you could get more use out of them than you are thinking. Swing style camisoles/shells and empire waist tops are also great with a cardigan/blazer

      1. Future Homesteader*

        Probably too casual for work, but those look great for outside of work options!

    9. Colleen*

      Wrap dresses. Maternity wrap dresses can work too.

      Size up in pants. Don’t go maternity yet, just go bigger.

      I’m in the end of my second tri with my 3rd. I’ve gained a ton of weight each time. I’m just now moving into true maternity clothes vs sized-up, except for my maternity yoga pants which I’ve been wearing since Christmas ;).

      Sizing up is also great bc you can wear that stuff again as your post pregnweight comes off.

    10. K, Esq.*

      I got two belly bands from Motherhood Maternity, one black and one tan. I think it was around $20 for the pair. They kept me in my regular work dress pants until about 6 months pregnant. I’m due in 3 weeks, and dresses with stockings and an open blazer are the most comfortable and work appropriate now.

    11. BetsCounts*

      how about a clothing rental service for a few months? I am fluctuating between sizes and Gwynnie Bee has been a lifesafer.

    12. LilySparrow*

      I loved crossover-neckline tops. You can find them in all sorts of fabrics, they’re very forgiving of size fluctuation, and they don’t scream “maternity”. I kept wearing them well into normal life, because they were so flattering to postpartum body changes as well.

      Seconding the belly bands – I stayed in some of my normal pants for a long time by leaving them unzipped, using hair elastics in the buttonhole, and using a belly band to cover the gap. It just looks like you’re wearing a long layering piece underneath your shirt, if it’s noticeable at all.

      You can find the elastic waist band clips someone else mentioned at fabric stores and big-box stores – they’re called “fashion fit clips” or “hip huggers”.

    13. Faith*

      I loved wrap dresses when I was pregnant (not the faux wrap, where they are just ruched around the middle, but actual dress that wraps around your body and is tied with a sash). They don’t even have to be maternity dresses, which is a plus because you can still wear them after you give birth and they don’t stretch out.

    14. HR preggers*

      Get loose fitting non-maternity dresses. Like wrap dresses. They allow more expanding room in the belly area than regular pants or fitted dress. I got some from NY and co. and wore them from about 10 weeks until delivery. Just make sure they are longer than you would normally wear because they will ride up a bit with growing belly. I also bought a few pairs of black maternity dress pants from old navy. Its elastic so they will stay up now, just be a little loose, and they will stretch as you stretch.

    15. K, Esq.*

      The fabric on most maternity pants sucks – it’s cheap, and doesn’t look dressy at all. The only nice maternity pants I’ve found are slacks from Ann Taylor Loft’s maternity line. They run a touch small and are $90/pair, but they’re made of wool and are business appropriate. You’ll be heavily pregnant in the summer, so you’ll have more dress options which is nice.

      1. Future Homesteader*

        I know! I bought two pairs of maternity pants from a maternity store because I was desperate, but they’re barely a step above leggings. Good to know about the Loft – that’s my go-to for work anyway.

      2. Specialk9*

        I like the Gap dress pants. I went low cost everywhere but there, but I’m glad I got them.

    16. Mephyle*

      Besides wrap dresses, Japanese-style shift dresses are another option for loose-fitting dresses.
      Also, this tip might be way out of date, but thirty years ago I had one maternity jumper (‘pinafore dress’ in UK English) in a neutral colour, and wore regular blouses under it, unbuttoned from the bump down. The jumper was a well-cut garment so it ended up looking all right from the time I couldn’t fit into some of my regular clothes right up to the 9th month.

    17. CML*

      Check out Target – I was able to find fitted maternity dresses and skirts that fit when I first started showing (that awkward in-between stage) and when I was at the final weeks of pregnancy. They were snug by the time I was at the end of my pregnancy but nothing was inappropriately tight and I would use items such as cardigans or blazers to keep them “dressed up” and provide some coverage. Maternity maxi skirts were my go-to.

    18. J.B.*

      A line dresses with some stretch, possibly with a nice jacket over top. They will also be good if you come back to work after kiddo arrives (it takes a little while to lose the weight too.)

      Congratulations!

    19. Traveling Teacher*

      I borrowed several pieces from friends! They were about 8 months postpartum and done wearing their mat-wear when I was about 2 months along. Very thrifty option! (I could only borrow tops and dresses because I have wider hips than they do, but it saved me a boatload).

      Also, I echo the advice to use a belt creatively! One of my favorite things to do was to layer a maternity sweater over a nice midi- or maxi-length dress (empire-waisted, so very full and forgiving!) once I was 5+ months along and then belt below my bump and sometime use two thin belts.

      I also have two maternity tops that I still love to wear, years later! They have secret nursing pockets, but you’d never, ever know. Because I got it in a small size (bought postpartum for nursing), it doesn’t look like maternity wear, and I feel like I’m getting maximum frugal mileage out of them. I’ve also recently bought a new dress on clearance from the maternity department! It fits so well and is so comfy. If you really love a piece, you might find yourself wearing it for longer than expected…!

      1. Specialk9*

        “Also, I echo the advice to use a belt creatively! One of my favorite things to do was to layer a maternity sweater over a nice midi- or maxi-length dress (empire-waisted, so very full and forgiving!) once I was 5+ months along and then belt below my bump and sometime use two thin belts.”

        Wait, this sounds interesting. How many belts were you wearing at a time? One above and one below? How did that look?

    20. Deus Cee*

      I didn’t fit my regular pants, but barely showed until about 7 months (I’m overweight and with eating healthier and walking a lot during the pregnancy my weight didn’t increase, it just all shifted to baby instead). I found most maternity stuff wasn’t comfortable up until that point, so before then I would just use a hairband/elastic to slightly extend my pants and ensure the tops went low enough to hide it. Drapey tops can be great – ones for post-maternity might be better for your current shape, and they’ll have use afterwards if you’re planning on nursing.

  26. Anon O'Mouse for this*

    I work for a small company that is having some tough times, and rather than lay me off they’ve given me a paycut of 50%. (Ouch.) The owners are convinced that things will turn around and we’ll all be making more money next year, but they are not seeing clearly here (the problems are deeper than they are willing and able to acknowledge). So, I’m working but looking for a new job. I need the owners’ references, so have to stay on good terms. I’ve only been here a couple years, and before that was out of work for health reasons for 3 years, and stayed at the job before *that* only a year, so I am sure this will be a challenging job search. What would you say in this scenario at an interview about why you’re looking to leave – keep it as a “ready for new challenges” kind of answer?

    1. crying at work is fun!*

      Cold you say something like the circumstances of the job had changed from when you took it? You took it at X salary, but now you’re getting paid half, and that’s enough of a dealbreaker. I also wonder if you could gloss over and just mention that the company is going through financial difficulties and leave it at that.

    2. Opulent Octopus*

      I would be honest that the business is experiencing financial problems. Nobody reasonable would expect a person to stay at a job long term when the salary drops by 50%! Good luck.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Absolutely not! You’re not looking for new challenges, your company has severely altered the terms of your employment. Without bringing your decreased salary into the picture (potentially affecting future offers), I think you can say the company is facing financial hardship and there’s no guarantee your job will last.

      Not that it was your choice or if this is helpful, but I would rather have been laid off – unemployment pretty much gives you half your salary and would leave you plenty of time to job search. I hope they’ve halved your hours along with your salary! (I don’t know what you were originally making, but check that your new salary doesn’t bring you under minimum wage.)

    4. Opalescent Tree Shark*

      My organization is going through a budget crisis right now and although there are no layoffs yet, I am not holding my breath, so I am job searching. I don’t know if this is the right thing to say, but in interviews I have been saying that my current organization is facing major budget cuts and my department will probably be hit hard, so I am using this as an opportunity to seek new challenges and advance my career rather than wait to get laid off.

    5. Anon O'Mouse for this*

      SO I think I am getting hung up on feeling bad for my bosses – this is a SUPER small company, and so this is personal for them, and I worry that by talking about any struggles the company is having, I’ll be messing with their ability to help the business recover. (As in, it’ll get back to clients – one of my bosses knows EVERYONE in this industry, it seems – and that will cause problems for the company.) I should probably get over that feeling though, and be straight (ish) about the changes.

      (I’m still not close to minimum wage, and I’m making a little more than if I were on unemployment so I felt compelled to stay while I job search- but in my state, such a big drop in pay would likely still have let me get unemployment. Kinda wish I’d taken that chance…it is so hard to stay motivated now!)

      1. Natalie*

        Yep, this not your responsibility to take on. Nor is it particularly likely that someone interviewing is going to be the cause of their failure (if they do in fact fail). They are already having problems, which means something is *wrong* that wasn’t caused by someone interviewing.

        I used to see this kind of irrational thinking in failing tenants – they’d start paying things late because they didn’t have the cashflow to cover it, but literally do nothing else different as though putting off a few payments was somehow going to fix their problem. Frequently when a business goes under, there’s something so structurally wrong (bad economy, bad business model, no market, mismanagement, etc) that little things like interviewing just don’t matter at the end of the day.

      2. CAA*

        It is perfectly fine to say that the company is having financial problems. You can also say that they are no longer able to pay the salary you originally agreed upon for your work. You don’t have to say that last part, but if you feel it explains more clearly why you’re leaving, then a sane interviewer is not going to hold it against you if you say it.

        If your bosses are as well connected as you say, then be prepared for them to find out that you’re job hunting. Obviously this should not be a surprise to them. Also, it is very likely that the community will find out they’re having financial difficulties. You really do not have any obligation to refrain from mentioning that when you interview, but of course you should not give out any proprietary information. The fact that they are not paying you a fair market value for your work is information that belongs to you, and you do not have to keep it a secret if you don’t want to.

    7. Former Govt Contractor*

      Why is having to accept a 50% pay cut because the business is failing not a legitimate reason to leave? You don’t need to get creative here.

    8. Bea*

      Nope nope nope they’re circling the drain. Wtf kind of world do we suddenly survive on 50% of our income. Even when you’re a good saver and frugal most rentals or mortgages take 1/3 or more of your pay.

      Also no, you don’t need the references. I learned that quickly. Unless it’s an industry who heavily relies on them, nobody called on mine last time. The one person who did was at my urging because I was moving and knew it would be to my benefit. I’m not saying to burn a bridge but do not accept this abuse as a requirement not to have them suddenly start slandering you to potential employers.

      Tell new opportunities you had a 50% cut in pay and need to move on. Normal people do not cut wages let alone slash them so violently. They will be horrified.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, no one has done a reference check on me since 2010, and I’ve changed jobs and industries three times since then.

    9. Middle School Teacher*

      Maybe say that you are looking for something with stability, and while you love the job and the company (assuming that’s true), ultimately you need something more stable?

      Sorry you’re dealing with this. It’s a crummy situation all around.

    10. KayEss*

      Look into partial unemployment benefits, if they’re available in your state. A 50% pay cut is significant and may leave you eligible to collect partial UI while you are employed there and searching.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      I went through something like this Anon. In fact, I didn’t get paid for a whole entire month!

      I would say something along the line of “My company is experiencing some financial difficulties and staff has impacted as a result.” And then focus on why you’re interested in the their opportunity.

  27. Quaggaquagga*

    How best to manage reports who don’t have much work to do? I’m doing my best to keep people busy with small projects, tutorials, and encouraging them to do some creative work-related play, but I feel terrible that most of them are probably sitting around twiddling their thumbs. Also, if this is simply a temporary lull in workload and there’s not much I can do other than wait for work to come in, how not to let it stress me out so much? Let’s assume that sending people home early will be highly frowned upon.

    1. Freya*

      How about personal development stuff e.g. doing online MOOC courses or learning more about specific aspects of their job? Writing documentation?

    2. Morning Glory*

      Instead of small projects, is it possible to come up with a couple of non-urgent but still useful long-term projects for them to work on when their standard work is slow?

      I have a few of these which prevent me from ever running out of work.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Ask them to share their ideas of good projects. This might be a good time to rearrange work flows, push furniture around or whatever, if those things are allowed. I know I could spend days just straightening up stuff on my computer.

      Depending on your setting, I have gone to my boss and asked for projects for my group, also.

    4. bb-great*

      Make sure they know it’s a temporary lull if that is the case. Otherwise they might be concerned there isn’t enough work to keep them all employed, or that the job will always be this dull.

      But this really isn’t a big deal, I don’t think. There are way worse things than having downtime at work!!

    5. [insert witty user name here]*

      Ummmm can I ask what work-related play is?!?!?! I am intrigued!!

      1. Quaggaquagga*

        We’re in a creative field and use a lot of different development software and tools. So I ask them to experiment with new techniques, see how they can adapt existing material for new delivery methods, stuff like that. Should be fun, but I understand it may also feel aimless and not terribly urgent or motivating.

    6. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      as someone in that lull…

      1. if there’s other stuff that could be done, that would be nice.
      2. tell me what you’re doing to fix it/how long it’ll be/whatever you can
      3. I would love to be sent home early (I’m salary). not my fault there’s no work for me!
      4. training is good, but there’s a limit to what you can stand.

      1. Earthwalker*

        Yes! Also don’t restrict reading, web browsing, etc. if there’s nothing left to do. Enforced wall-staring is the worst.

    7. Ann O.*

      Personally, I am happy to sit and be paid to surf the Internet during a lull in workload. But I was not happy to do that when I didn’t know that my manager is on top of things and that there are plans in motion to get more work back on my plate.

      I’d recommend blunt conversations about expectations and what’s allowed. Are you fine with letting people surf work appropriate sites? Taking longer lunch breaks and other forms of breaks?

      You also say “if this is simply a temporary lull,” which implies that you’re not sure it is. So could your stress be less about keeping people busy in the day to day and more about the possibility that you’re overstaffed for the amount of work available?

    8. Cajun2core*

      Ask them to document their jobs in detail. I did that once when I was in a lull and it helped the person who came after me when I left that job. By in detail, I mean every screen, every click, etc. Have them create a *very* detailed Process and Procedure manual (P&P for their jobs. It will give them something to do (at least for a while) and it will be helpful if one of them leaves. Further, if possible, have them switch jobs and test out each other’s P&P manual.

    9. Specialk9*

      You said let’s assume sending them home would be frowned upon. Are you sure?

      My friend had a long term project with huge delays on the client side, and there was virtually no work to do. They all worked from home for months at a time, but were responsive if pinged, and came in if necessary for meetings or to see the client.

      It was a really respectful arrangement. I was impressed by the company for looking beyond the butts-in-seats mentality, to keeping good people.

  28. Yams*

    So, sales people. I’m in a sticky situation. Has a client every “propositioned” something very personal to you? How did you handle it? I played dumb, made some extremely awkward small talk and bailed. Unfortunately the guy has to approve a project I’ve been working on for the last 6 months and I don’t want this derailed by this. I don’t really know what to do. I’m afraid to go to my boss because I’m not out at work yet. Help. I’m panicking.

    1. Squeeble*

      Sorry you’re dealing with this. I’m wondering if being out or not will make a difference. If someone makes an inappropriate pass at you at work, it shouldn’t matter what either of your genders or orientations are–it’s still inappropriate and your boss will hopefully be able to help. But maybe there’s additional context that would make it more risky than I’m imagining.

    3. Yams*

      The problem is that the guy in question is the engineer in charge of project approval at my customer’s location, so I can’t just brush him off as brusquely as I usually do unwanted advances. I mean, I think my best bet is to keep playing dumb until the project gets approved (we’re at the last stages before signing everything into place), because once that’s done I shouldn’t have any contact with him anymore. Just the purchasing staff, who are completely different. I’m just very worried about having this falling through because of this guy, I’ve worked very hard on it :(

    4. Naptime Enthusiast*

      I don’t think the fact that you’re not out has anything to do with the situation, since the client is behaving inappropriately to you. It is their behavior that is wrong, since it is unwelcome and using the power differential between you to their advantage. That is some of the language directly out of our anti-harassment training at work.

      In the short term, is it possible to have someone else in these meetings with you? Maybe you can bring in someone junior under the pretense of getting them more experience, and that way the client can’t say anything further without someone else hearing as well.

      1. Yams*

        That’s a great idea! I hadn’t thought about it–still in a bit of a panic. I can have my boss come with me to the meetings and frame it as: you’re such a important customer to us that we want to have a member of management looped in to speed everything along. Pure BS of course, but it gets me out of the problem with minimal embarrassment for anyone. Thank you so much!

        1. Naptime Enthusiast*

          That’s even better, and I doubt the customer would balk at that explanation. Best of luck to you, please let us know how it goes!

        2. LilySparrow*

          If your boss is a decent person, you’ll be in a stronger position if they know the real reason.

          As we see from the #metoo movement, there is zero chance that you’re the only person this creep has been creepy to. Indeed, your boss may already know about the creep’s behavior and your information could be valuable to getting it stopped.

          1. Yams*

            He’s a new customer I’ve been prospecting and my boss hasn’t actually met him yet. Fortunately, it might just be a case of a guy who’s too young and inexperienced to know better, he’s in his early twenties while I’m 25–and honestly, in the context of two young attractive guys I would’ve been thrilled to be hit on by him, but since he’s my customer that introduces a huge risk that makes me way beyond uncomfortable.
            I would love to be able to bring this up in a:” dude, chill the eff out, this is totally inappropriate, illegal and can definitely get you fired” but, crucially, I don’t feel like neither my company nor myself have the capital to spend on something like this. It would definitely poison the well, since, somehow, he’s one of the top engineers. Bringing my boss and remaining professional is probably the best way to go, and I hope that he either learns the lesson by himself, or in the future when I’m in a stronger position I can go in and tell him how wrong he was. I definitely do not want to be in this position, but I don’t have much of a choice.

            1. Specialk9*

              It sounds like you’re worried that you’re going to be outed involuntarily by the fact that a gay guy hit on you, or perhaps that you can’t imitate a straight guy outrage convincingly?

              For the first, gay guy gaydar can be very hit or miss. (Makes sense, any behavior you can imagine, there’ll be a population spectrum of people’s ability for that thing.) Lots of straight guys have been hit on by gay guys. That won’t out you. (Even if you know extra details, like he saw me at a gay club and that’s why he hit in me — your manager won’t know those.)

              And if you’re worried about not reacting straight enough… I’ve heard straight guys (the cool kind) reference unwanted passes from men by saying something like “I’m flattered, but…”

              (For what it’s worth from a straight woman who has dealt with sexual harassment, but not having to hide my orientation.)

  29. Erin*

    I’ve been at my job since December, and I’m already looking to leave. My manager left three weeks after I started (which I knew after accepting the job), and the negativity around here is incredible. I don’t have a manager, my acting manager doesn’t know all of the finer details of our job, and my unit teammates hate our acting manager and don’t make much of a secret about it. I constantly hear people complaining about the incompetency of senior staff, and the turnover rate is so high right now, with people openly discussing applying for new jobs and looking to leave. I know I made the right decision in leaving my old job, which I loved but just did not pay enough to live, but it would be so much less stressful than this one!

    I don’t know if I necessarily need advice, but I just wanted to vent an AAM seemed as good a place as any!

    2. Specialk9*

      So here’s a secret. If you can find a way to tune them all out and take pride in your work, you have the chance to be the one left standing. Chronic complainers don’t usually have the whole truth, and they’re not the ones who solve problems.

      My husband was in a similar situation and has been so motivated by this former Navy Seal turned author on work transformation, Jocko Willink, and everything I hear second hand sounds really good. (I assumed he’d be super aggressive or dogmatic, but he actually reminds me of a really good therapist who helped me get unstuck.)

      You should check Jocko out, there are free podcasts (that you can listen to instead of complaining coworkers), and a book if you want to know more. (No affiliation.)

  30. Questioning Consultant*

    IS THIS UNETHICAL? I work for company A but they ‘lend’ me out to company B to serve as an consulting resource for workers comp claims. I now have an email and business cards for company B (in addition to my cards for company A). At client meetings company B implies I am an employee of the company. They have even said it more or less outright. I’m a bit uncomfortable about this – I don’t mind the spin of “she works with us” or something like that, but to tell clients I’m an employee is a lie. Am I being too weird about this??? ( I won’t go into the fact that I don’t really want to work with/for company B but I don’t really have a choice in the matter – and no, I wasn’t hired to be an outside consultant, it just evolved into that).

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Does it make a difference to the clients? Would knowing you work for company A change anything for them?

      1. Questioning Consultant*

        I’d say about 50% of them *specifically ask* which tells me that it does matter to them for some reason. I guess that is why it bothers me since I assume that if it really wasn’t a big deal they wouldn’t bother asking.

        1. CM*

          Is giving them your business card for company A an option? You can always try that and say that you are consulting with company B. Other than that, you can correct them when they say or imply that you work for them directly “Actually, I am a consultant with company A but I have been working with company B for X period of time”. If company B pushes back on either of these, loop in your actual employer.

            1. CM*

              I think the best thing you can do is talk to company A about it and how uncomfortable you are with how they represent your working relationship to clients. See what company A says before you decide if and how to push back.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          Can you tell them “Actually, I’m employed by Company A but they’ve got me working with Company B right now”? Are you allowed to do that?

    2. MissCPA*

      Are these companies related? Brother/Sister companies or is Company B a client of Company A? When I interned at my current place of employment, my fellow intern was lent out to help a client so she was still being paid by Employer but doing the work for Client. Client was then billed by Employer for her hourly wage. I don’t know if this is as big a deal as you’re making it out to be, honestly. I think it might be too much for Co. B to explain to a client “oh we borrow her from Company A, who is related to us/we are a client of/etc.”, but I don’t know all the details.

      1. Questioning Consultant*

        Definitely unrelated companies. Different types of companies even. Technically B is a ‘client’ of A, but just because of my services. I agree that it really shouldn’t be a big deal to clients, but it seems to be because they ask. Also seems to be a big deal to company B that I get positioned as an employee and not a contractor, which then increases my uneasiness about the misrepresentation of the relationship. If the client found me on Linked In it would reveal that I’m *clearly* not an employee of Company B. And as a client if I had been told explicitly or implicitly that so-and-so was an employee and then found out they weren’t, that wouldn’t sit well with me.

    3. CAA*

      Looking at it from Company B’s point of view, no, it’s not unethical. It’s no different than hiring contractors through a staffing agency. It would be very weird to introduce people to clients as “these are our employees and these are our contractors”. They’re all working for you and you’re responsible for the quality and outcomes of their work whether you issue them a W-2 or pay an invoice from their actual employer.

    4. Texas*

      Are you working on the carrier/TPA side, or the employer side? Because if you’re working on the carrier side, there could be some problems generated from this. Carriers have legal obligations about the advice they give clients/insureds, employees are covered by the E&O insurance where contractors/consultants aren’t, etc.

      1. LilySparrow*

        I don’t know the insurance and outs of workman’s comp, but my first thought was that the concern has something to do with your duties and relationship to Company B’s clients, like fiduciary duty or attorney-client privilege.

        If you being a contractor doesn’t change your obligation to the end-client, it might not be a big deal. They just want reassuring.

        But if your status does have a practical impact, then there is an ethical issue.

  31. Jane*

    Talk to me about when you’ve missed an obvious solution to a problem. One figure was off in a spreadsheet I created that impacted the final totals. I spent so much company time trying to figure out what was wrong, thinking it was a huge variable that was affecting it, when it was really my own typo. My boss is being pretty cool about it, but I still am feeling pretty dumb.

    1. Bridgette*

      My supervisor created an excel document for our monthly events meeting. I just couldn’t understand the numbering he was using for the events. Then one day I was looking at it and it just clicked. I felt dumb afterwards, as well, but I chalked it up to people just processing things differently.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Oh, I do this constantly on client emails. I receive an email for researching typically 1-2 days after the client sends it — do my deep research, spend ages looking up information and typing everything up nice and diplomatic, and then check contact history and see the client called yesterday and got the short version of the info I just wrote up! Drives me nuts. I’m trying to change my email handling habits to mitigate.

    3. Ten*

      At least you caught it. I let a serious typo slip by that no one noticed until AFTER the book was printed (100’s of copies). Like, the text should have been ‘teapot design’ and it was ‘peapot design’. Got kidded about ‘peapots’ for several years at that job.

      1. hermit crab*

        At least it wasn’t public/pubic, which seems to be the embarrassing error of choice at my organization!

      2. Tuna Casserole*

        I once sent out a brochure where I misspelled t-shirt. I’d left out the ‘r’. My boss was cool about, she thought it was funny, but I was mortified.

    4. JokersandRogues*

      I once spent 10 hours trying to trace down a problem in some SQL, getting more and more frantic to find 20 records that had vanished. Yeah, about then I remembered I had deleted them (for good reason) in a side window.

    5. crying at work is fun!*

      Some years ago, I was working with a trainee who was trying to figure out why her pivot table showed values that she’d deleted from the source data. We went over the source data and the pivottable over and over again… until about an hour into it, I realized that the numbers on the side of Excel were blue. She had a filter applied. Remove the filter and voila, there are the missing values.

      Now guess what’s the first thing I check ;)

    6. hermit crab*

      I do stuff like this all the time, and so do other people I work with. I bet your boss does too! It’s just part of being human.

      It might make yourself feel better (and lead to better outcomes all around) if you can come up with a plan or system for preventing similar errors in the future. But don’t beat yourself up about it!

    7. Annie Moose*

      I spent four hours the other day trying to track down why a piece of code wasn’t working. It’s part of a case management system that’s supposed to display details of related cases for a particular client; in this case, I was trying to get it to take a numeric code and turn it into nice user-friendly text. (e.g. it takes “17” and displays it as “In Progress”) Because I was just trying to get the display side of things working, I was giving it some test data instead of using a real client’s data. And it just wouldn’t display the text, only the number!

      Turns out the code was working completely as expected. I was just giving it bad data, a numeric code that didn’t translate into text. Massive headdesk moment.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I had one just this week.
      I got a new printer. The touch screen did not work. They sent a second printer. That touch screen did not work either. (This is a story spanning out over weeks.)
      This week I learned I had to use my pinky finger on the touch screen. My index finger does not work.
      I had no clue.

    9. Samiratou*

      Pretty much anyone who has written even a fairly easy computer program has spent hours debugging a missed comma or semicolon. There should be specific pull-out pads you can put over your keyboard for safe headdesking when you figure it out.

      And I’m not even a programmer, and yet I’ve done it. *sigh*

        1. Windchime*

          Or putting parenthesis in the wrong place (or omitting)…..

          WHERE Condition A and Condition B or Condition C instead of
          WHERE Condition A and (Condition B or Condition C)

    10. Anonymous Ampersand*

      I was in a meeting one day when a manager was talking about doing things”ground up”. I could not understand what he meant and was on the verge of asking for clarification when it hit me that what he meant was the opposite of top down, not something you might do with a mortar and pestle. Close call.

    11. periwinkle*

      This was back when I worked tech support… I came back to work after taking a few days off. Turned on my computer and external hard drive (this was back when internal hard drives were not a given). Hmm. It’s not starting up. Computer is fine but the hard drive isn’t booting up. How odd. Well, I’m a tech support person, I need to troubleshoot this. Could it be a power problem? I remove the HD case, check the connections, still nothing… basically I did about 15 minutes of physical troubleshooting with the HD’s power before I realized something.

      Someone had removed the cable that connected the hard drive to the computer. It took me 15 minutes to notice this, despite the fact that I had been disconnecting and reconnecting every other cable.

      Let me reiterate. I was a technical support professional, hired to fix problems on this very computer setup. At least it was a useful anecdote to use with customers berating themselves for doing something stupid. “Oh, don’t worry, everyone goofs up sometimes. Let me tell you about what *I* did!”

      1. Elizabeth West*

        LOL this happened to me at Exjob. I called IT and everything before I realized I’d accidentally unplugged something. And I even checked, but I missed this particular connection. Calling them back was sooooo embarrassing.

    12. Merci Dee*

      I had built some spreadsheets for some annual federal reporting that we do, relating to capital expenditures. My spreadsheets were epic and beautiful, showing the flow of information from one set of data to the next. As it happens, my spreadsheets were also quite large because of the types of activity that we do. I’d gotten my federal report finished and submitted for review, and my boss passed it along to grand-boss for final approval. Grand-boss thought there was a way to pare down and simplify the spreadsheets, and he explained it to my boss. She, in turn, tried to explain it to me, but it just seemed like there was this one huge category of information that was missing from their idea. I tried a couple of times to explain this to my boss, but she assured me that the calculations she and grand-boss went through were accurate and took those into account . . . I just couldn’t see it. I finally perched at my boss’s desk and talked this through with her for almost an hour, and kept running into this one category as a roadblock. Finally, my boss made the one comment that caused everything to click into place for me, and then she started laughing at the look on my face when the light bulb finally blaze to life over my head. And, of course, I had to laugh, too, because I couldn’t believe how I’d managed to overlook the obvious. My spreadsheets got revised, everything was much simpler for the reporting, and I made copious notes so that I won’t have to go through so much work this year when I start the reporting process in a few months.

    13. As Close As Breakfast*

      Ok, so this was in grad school and it was pretty freaking bad. The first part of my research basically focused on fracture testing samples. The ‘breaking stuff’ part of the project was only the last 5% or so of the practical/hands-on work before the data analysis part. The 95% leading up to that was the sample-prep part and was WAY more involved. The first step was calculating the sizing for the samples, based on what I was trying to test, what the material was, and the load capabilities of the machine. Like, this was work done in the first 5-10 pages of my lab book. This was followed by OVER A YEAR of sample prep work. So there I am, like 18 months after I started, trying to make sense of all of this freaking data. I’m looking at it and I know, I just KNOW something is wrong. It’s all really off. Not in a “huh, this isn’t what we expected to find” but in a “this seems to go against the very nature of fracture mechanics!” So I methodically go through months of processes, steps, decisions and notes. And then I found it. Around page 3, I was doing some cross-sectional area calculations. Super simple and easy. Except… EXCEPT I DROPPED A 2 SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE. Everything after that was off by 1/2, which was then exponentially compounded a few times… and yeah. I cried. I cried a lot. And then I started over. Those were very dark days.

    14. Jeminy*

      When I was an undergrad, I took this accounting course where something like 55% of our grade depended on this massive final project based around doing a(n obviously highly simplified) year’s worth of accounting work for a company, with multiple examples of every kind of transaction and possibility we’d covered over the semester. There were something like 500 transactions to record and all sorts of related calculations – it was a seriously huge project.

      Well, my undergrad self was a slacker and kind of a flake, and I skipped the day the project was officially “assigned” (although the professor went over the importance of the project on the first day, and the Excel file we were to do all of our journaling and posting and financial statement-ing (a technical term, lol) in was on our online shadow course). The next class, I asked the professor about the project instructions, and he told me they were all in the Excel file. So I was all set, right?

      Unfortunately, that slacker thing came in to play, and instead of spreading out the work over the course of the semester, I saved it all for the weekend it was due, in true Jeminy style. Problem was, I sat down oh, say, 48 hours before the due date, opened the Excel file, aaaaaand…….no instructions. There were numerous separate sheets all set up as the various components – journal, ledger, this, that, the other – but not a single transaction for me to enter.

      I was too embarrassed to email the professor and admit I was only just starting the project, so instead I spent at least an hour desperately combing every single bit of course content on our blackboard. I turned up the project description, a whole separate document on how important it was to space out the project over the semester, and the project grading rubric, but couldn’t find a transaction list anywhere.

      Finally, in desperation, I googled a few sentences from the project description and founded where someone had posted it on Chegg (which is a homework help site; if you’re a paying member, you can post homework questions and people with varying levels of dubious expertise will answer it for you) in full, transaction list and all. I didn’t use the answers (in fact, as I wasn’t a paying member, they weren’t visible to me – and even if they were, I wouldn’t have looked), but I did use the transaction list to complete my project. I could tell there were differences between my project and the Chegg one, based on the set-up of the Excel file, but I didn’t see any other option, and figured it was better to suck it up and turn in a completed and wrong project than not turn in anything at all.

      So I did this whole project, feeling absolutely sick the whole time because I KNEW it wasn’t going to be right, and submitted it to our course blackboard a few hours before the due date – and this is when the obvious (other than contacting the professor, which years later I’m so annoyed at my younger self for not doing) kicks in.

      For anyone who doesn’t know, Excel lets you make multiple “sheets” in a single file (“workbook”) – think of like tabs in an internet browser. But there’s limited space to display the sheet names, so instead of just continually making them smaller and smaller and smaller, Excel has a certain number of sheet tabs it will show at once, and the rest get hidden, with a tiny and unobtrusive button you hit to expand them.

      Sure enough, as soon as blackboard showed me the preview of the first few sheets of my submitted Excel file, I realized – the project description, project instructions, and transaction list were in three separate sheets, the tabs for which had been hidden at the beginning of the workbook. They really were RIGHT THERE the whole time.

      Dumbest I’ve ever felt – and I’m facepalming now remembering it.

        1. Jeminy*

          I did! After all that anguish, I’m pretty sure he just ended up checking for completion – that every sheet had the correct number of entries or something – because I ended up getting an A, even though I went back and compared and there were some major differences between the Chegg list and the one we were actually supposed to use.

          All’s well that ends well, I guess?

    15. Windchime*

      I spent several hours last week trying to understand why Report B (which I was developing) had numbers that were way off from Report A (the official version). Turns out that the numbers weren’t tying out because I was comparing different months. D’oh!

  32. Britt*

    Short background: I’m currently under-employed working part-time while looking for a new full-time job after moving back to my hometown. I’ve been away from full-time work for about 6 months now. I applied for Teapot Quality at a local great company, went through the interview process, was told I would be a great fit and they were waiting on Q4 budget approval. Well, approval was denied and I was told to apply for positions in the new year. 



    So a position opened that is such a great match to my background, I applied the day it was posted, and contacted the internal Talent Acquisition rep that I was in touch with the last round. She emailed me back literally one minute later and said she was happy to hear from me: she had my resume lined up for this position and already spoke with the hiring manager — you can imagine my excitement reading that email!



    Their process is a HireVue interview, which I completed last Monday. I’ve been waiting on communication back about further steps. The company rep called me yesterday morning — but I missed the call! :( They left a voicemail to call them back when I had the chance, I called back 15 minutes later, but haven’t heard back from them so far.



    I know I’m letting my excitement about the position get in the way… it’s just that there are not many positions in my field in my city. So I’m just going to negative thoughts that they may not respond back if it’s not good news, or that they are going with an internal candidate. 

And beating myself up that I missed the call

    ***So, Question: From reading AAM, I know the best thought process is to move on like I don’t have the job……but does anyone else have advice about how to really move on from a position you were so excited for? And…how often should I try to get in touch, if at all?

    1. CM*

      I would contact them again either today or Monday to follow up on the missed call. You were told to call them back so calling a second time would not be too pushy.

  33. Lucky*

    During a conversation yesterday about our small department’s lack of administrative staff, my boss complained that he didn’t know how to schedule a meeting in Outlook. I must have looked both puzzled and bemused, because he then blurted “I’m 50 years old. I can’t figure out this technical stuff.”

    I am not that much younger than him, and can recall using Outlook back in the late 90s. It may be the only email & calendar tool I’ve used in my professional life. I don’t think “proficient at Microsoft Outlook” would even be a line item in either of our job descriptions. I’m just completely flummoxed that someone doesn’t “get” Outlook.

    1. misspiggy*

      It’s not his age, it’s that he doesn’t want to arrange meetings himself. He should get used to the side eye, because the ‘I’m too old for technology’ excuse doesn’t fly these days. He probably thought that by the time he got to 50 he would have a secretary…

    2. copier queen*

      I have the same frustration – My boss is paid six figures and is highly regarded for her professional expertise – but she has trouble using Outlook. Yes, I happen to younger than she is, and more proficient with technology in general, but Outlook is REALLY user-friendly.

    3. Jadelyn*

      My mother is turning 60 this year. When we got our first family computer when I was 10, she had no idea how to use it, and my brother and I had to help her install programs and configure stuff. Even up through my college years, she would call me or my brother to have us walk her through computer stuff or wait til we came home for a visit and have us fix computer stuff for her.

      But then she went back to work full-time. And she is now one of the most tech-savvy people in her department. At almost 60.

      So it’s not his age. He could learn it if he was willing to put in the effort. Or just freaking google it.

      2. Natalie*

        My dad is about that age and designs and codes websites for a living. Self taught, as it didn’t really exist as a degree when he was in college.

        It has nothing to do with age. Personal computers have been a part of basically every workplace for 20 years at a very generous minimum. What was his excuse when he was 30?

      3. zora*

        exactly. My dad is in his *80s*. Yes, 80s. And he has been a technical writer for about 30 years, works with all the normal Microsoft programs all the time, and knows more about Excel and complex databases than I do. I don’t buy the “i’m too old” excuse from anyone. Most people could learn this stuff if they made the effort.

    4. Adjuncts Anonymous*

      I can figure many things like that out if I know that the program has the capability to do something. I don’t always know that Outlook or Gmail/Google can do things, so I don’t do them. Maybe your boss can take a workshop on this. Not everyone understands the miracle of computers.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I am in my 50s and I hate Outlook. I use it but it involves cussing. I try to pay close attention when people here are talking about how they use Outlook. I never get to try any of the things because I do not have enough hours in my day. So for the time being I am sticking to my plan of trying to absorb OTHER people’s enthusiasm for Outlook.

    6. CAA*

      When he came into the work force, the IBM PC had already been in use for several years. I’m older than him and my roommate had one while we were in college. Also, I had one on my desk at my very first job in 1985. Office software very similar to Outlook was available on mainframes and we also had instant messaging.

      So no, it’s definitely not his age. It may be that he has no interest in technology, which is fine, but if part of his job is scheduling meetings and knowing how to check other people’s schedules, he should take the time to learn that.

      1. Anoni-nonni for this one*

        Is he an academic? (She said snarkily….). I had one faculty member tell me that everything I sent her had to be in a doc format. She can’t open docx or pdfs. She also ALWAYS showed up 6 hours early to meetings. Turned out her calendar was set for wrong time zone.

          1. Specialk9*

            Ha ha ha that’s just… I mean, I *totally* get doing that once, but never again. 6 hours early for an 8 am meeting is 2 am. For a noon meeting is 6 am!

    7. [insert witty user name here]*

      We hired someone who had worked for our parent company for several years in an admin type role and had been working in offices on and off for 20 some years. She came recommended from our customer (turns out he didn’t really know her work and he was embarrassed afterwards but we had no reason not to believe him at the time) and seemed like she would be OK.

      Y’all. She couldn’t even attach a file to an email. Seriously. She didn’t know which Microsoft Office program was which, she inadvertently printed things when she was trying to save them, she was a “hunt and peck” typer, she couldn’t consolidate slides in Power Point, I could go on….. My teammate and I that were supposed to train her knew within several days that this wasn’t going to work. Our supervisor was offsite but trusted our word. We unfortunately couldn’t fire her because she’d worked for “our” company (the parent company) for several years and HR said they needed to put her on a PIP first (why we had to do that is beyond me – and how someone hadn’t realized these problems before is just a whole other can of worms) but it turns out, she didn’t ever come back to work after the first week. She called out all the next week with “back problems” and then went out on short and then long term disability. No idea what happened to her after that, other than she never came back to work. But UGH – it was AWFUL. Since then, when hiring people, we asked HR if we could do some sort of computer skills test, but got kiboshed (again, WHY?!?!) so we had people bring in hard copies of work they’d done. We could at least get a feel for their skills by asking them to walk us through how they put stuff together.

    8. AJennifer*

      I have had to explain to both my boss and some coworkers that when I send a meeting invite in Outlook that it’s not just an FYI, that you should actually respond to the invite and when you accept it it will go on your calendar and you’ll get a reminder.

      I have also had to repeatedly explain to people I find in our conference room that I’ve reserved at a particular time that our conference room is scheduled through Outlook and if they need use of it they need to reserve it, like I did. Despite having sent step by step instructions, to the whole staff, multiple times.

      Or, I’ve set up shared calendars for specific projects that I manage, and shared in team meetings what will be shared on the calendar and how they should update it. Only to have them never accept the invite to access the shared calendar and then when they miss a deadline simply say “I don’t see that on my calendar so how could I know?”

      I’ve come to the realization that “proficiency in Outlook” on a resume means only that a person knows how to send or respond to an email.

    9. Thlayli*

      Ive met loads of older people who don’t know how to do it. 50 would be near the bottom end but you’d be surprised how many people have never needed to use outlook to book meetings. Any time anyone says anything like that about any software I offer to show them how and about 80% of the time they accept the offer and I teach them in 5 mins and then they know.

    10. Ann Furthermore*

      Oh, FFS. I’m 50. That’s a complete BS answer. The guy is just lazy and doesn’t want to put forth the effort to learn anything new.

      There are things that make me feel about 1,000 years old, or that I just don’t understand the kids today, but using freaking Outlook isn’t one of them.

    11. Jillociraptor*

      I’ve been trying to be more patient with this because every time I open Snapchat I have to google how to apply a filter, #thisis30, but yes, I relate to your flummoxedness.

      One of the very best lessons my mom taught me by example (she is in her 60s now) is to be confident and curious when encountering stuff I don’t know. She is totally proficient with social media, sets up all the tech in her house (usually by trial and error rather than reading the manual, but what can you do) and gets excited when there’s something new to learn. I really appreciate having that model in my life.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Haha this. I’m 52 and if I don’t know how to do something, I google it– enough people have usually asked the same question that I can almost always find an answer within just a few minutes.

      2. Traveling Teacher*

        Aw, that has to be one of the sweetest things I’ve read about parents and tech! Your mom sounds like a treasure.

    12. Bea*

      I’ve had tech-phobic bosses and one who loved technology but needed me to help him with his iPhone frequently.

      It’s not age. I had a college grad a few years back not know what a PDF was and how our email system worked. His dad was the tech phobic previously mentioned and didn’t see technology as important despite being well educated.

    13. Totally Minnie*

      50 is not very old. And if my 93 year old grandmother can figure out how to use her email client, so can your boss.

    14. MissDisplaced*

      I am 50 and that is so not an excuse. I’m the digital communications manager and work in all sorts of highly technical areas.
      It’s called laziness or worse, Type 1 Misogynist (Mild) behavior where he seems to think this is “woman’s work,” which traditionally has been the Admins. Or without the misogynist behavior and just is acting as a executive who doesn’t think he should have to do those things himself.

    15. Teapot PM*

      Yikes. I’m 51. I know more about Outlook and things like complicated Excel spreadsheets than my teenagers

      25 years ago those of us who are in our 50s now helped some of the more senior executives learn technology and figure out email, spreadsheets etc. They had an valid excuse having truly worked decades before PCs were on every desk but they were willing to learn. His age however is not an excuse.

      He’s 50, not 90!

    16. Betsy*

      I am mildly sympathetic to your boss, having tried to teach my mother basic skills like email and how to use the internet, and Word. She’s in her 50s, but spent a lot of time raising children and never really had exposure to computers for most of her life. She can use the internet OK now, but I think there’s still a lot she’d be behind in. Obviously, someone who is a boss would generally know better, but I do have some sympathy for people who didn’t grow up with technology and are really bad at learning it.

  34. Development*

    I have a question about raises. I currently am the sole prospect researcher at a mid-size nonprofit. The idea was recently put out there about me possible managing all of development operations which sort of is managed by a frontline fundraiser but it’s not her strong suit. This would greatly increase what I’m responsible for and I would go from no management duties to managing one or two people. I also only have a background in prospect research so I would have a steep learning curve.

    Can I ask for a raise before I accept this position or do I need to do the job first then ask for a raise? Additional information, I just received a merit increase and also received one in July of last year. However, these were really both part of a raise that I should have received in March of last year (I was told a raise and promotion was in the works then my manager left). I’m concerned my manager thinks these new duties correspond to the raise I just received and by asking for a raise it will show that I’m lacking in judgement.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Definitely ask for more money. But it shouldn’t be framed as a “raise” on what you currently make, but rather the appropriate market salary for that role.

    2. Aria is Not My Name*

      Ask for a raise based on additional responsibilities; you received your merit raise for the job duties you’re already responsbile for so that shouldn’t come into play. New responsibilities = new salary negotiation.

      As for the learning curve, find out the metrics that your new team will be responsible for meeting (or how they will be judged) and start there. I managed software developers for years and I can’t write a lick of code, but I developed relationships with senior developers who could act as mentors for their technical issues, while I focused on their HR, professional development, employee satisfaction, etc.

  35. Fishsticks*

    Tldr: I’m trying to determine if I can ask my boss for a favor on behalf of my girlfriend’s job and if it’s a yes, how to approach it!

    Extended version: My girlfriend works as a manager in charge of organizing programs for individuals with developmental disabilities. She wants to show them what are different jobs they could do and a variety of careers. My boss is a consultant and she would want to have him talk to some of the people about his career and different stuff he did in his field so that the people would be exposed to all sorts of jobs. My concern is that since it’s my girlfriend it may be taken weirdly, versus if my job just got cold called by someone wanting to speak with my boss about doing a talk. Would this be an okay thing to ask him to do or is it completely out of left-field and I should tell my girlfriend I can’t do it? Any advice would be helpful! Thanks!

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think you’re over-thinking it, to be honest. This would be, basically, volunteering his time in a career-day like setting, right? He wouldn’t need to sign up to be a long-term mentor, just show up and talk about what he does? I’ve done things like that, and I’ve set up connections between friends and colleagues to do things like that. It’s ok that it’s your girlfriend! “Hey boss, my gf works for Career Helping Hands, and she was wondering if you might be interested in coming in to talk to the group one day. Would you be interested in that? May I pass along your contact info?” Even better if he knows her already.

    2. bb-great*

      I don’t think this is a big deal at all! I would just make it clear that it’s totally voluntary and don’t make it seem like of course he’ll do this favor since it’s your girlfriend.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Yes, this is fine. And this is how services are expanded for folks with disabilities through connections such as you and your girlfriend. It’s those one-on-one conversations that build programs for people.
      Just as it is fine to ask, it is also fine for your boss to say no. If I were asking I would start by, “Boss, I have a question and I TOTALLY understand if you have to say no, but I would like to ask anyway.” Build an easy “out” for the boss into how you phrase your question.

    4. HR preggers*

      I agree you are over thinking this. The only way it would get awkward is if you kept pushing this idea on him. Mention it and if he says no drop it. If he says he might be interested ask if you can pass his contact info onto your gf.

    5. Goya de la Mancha*

      I don’t think it would be weird to ask, but definitely give an easy out for him and don’t push it if he says no.

    6. Fishsticks*

      I actually have a problem of overthinking things like this so that’s why I wanted to ask XD
      Thank you all for the responses! I’m going to ask him Monday and see what he says!

    7. Thlayli*

      Does it have to be your boss specifically? Maybe if you frame it like “could you or one of our other consultants do this” it might be better

    8. AJennifer*

      I think it would be completely appropriate to ask your boss if it is something he would do. I would frame it in a complimentary way. “Hey boss, my girlfriend works with people with developmental disabilities to help them understand different types of jobs and careers. She’s looking for people with a variety of backgrounds to talk about their work experiences and thought your experience as a *successful consultant to many clients* would be of interest to the clients she works with. I understand if you don’t want or have the time to do something like that, but if you’d be open to talking to her more about what the organization does and what they’re hoping to accomplish with this effort, I’d pass along your contact info and the two of you can take it from there .” And then you’re out of the loop and whatever happens, happens. I can’t imagine your boss would think badly of you or anything negative could come from such a request, and you don’t push it beyond asking to make an initial introduction.

    9. Triple Anon*

      You could say, “Would you like to or do you know anyone else in your field who might be interested?” And I guess you could say, “friend,” instead of “girlfriend.” “A friend of mine is looking for speakers to talk about various professions. This is a volunteer gig.” Something like that.

  36. Like The City*

    Question about response times from larger companies: I’ve held two jobs since college, each for 4 years. My first job was for a regional bank (around 500 employees) that only ended because my position (the whole group of us in that position) was eliminated during a merger. After that I moved into my current job for a company (around 150 employees) that sells items for llamas via catalog and web. I’m the manager of the llama customer service department. For various reasons mentioned in a previous Friday Open Thread, I’ve been looking for a new job.

    Yesterday I applied for a position with the local office of a Fortune 500 company, so I’m not sure what to expect as far as response times to my resume, assuming I even get a response. With the first job, it wasn’t long (maybe a week or so?) after my application that I was called in and with this current job, I actually started as a temp and ended up being hired on and moving up from there. Any advice on a timeline for a company this large? (Assuming again that I get any sort of response at all.) I’m just curious to see how it compares to my previous experiences with hiring. I’m obviously still continuing the job search and will do so until I have an accepted offer in hand from someone. Thanks!

    1. Susan K*

      I know this isn’t the answer you want, but it varies a ton between companies, departments, and even jobs. Some will get back to you within a week, and for others, it could take months. And that’s just for the initial interview — the rest of the hiring process (the time from the initial interview to the second interview, if there is one; the time from the interviews to the offer; the time from the offer to the start date) is even more unpredictable.

      1. Like The City*

        There’s no particular answer that I want, just curious at how things may be different from going to small businesses to large ones. Thanks for the insight!

    2. crying at work is fun!*

      For timeline for first contact from when you’d apply… maybe a month? You don’t necessarily know when the posting closed, or when they started looking at resumes (maybe they were doing it while the posting was open, maybe they were waiting until the end), or if you were in the first round of people being contacted. I’d give it a month or two for a big place. Hopefully they’d get back to you sooner, though.

    3. periwinkle*

      It all depends on the company, the position, what’s going on with the hiring process, the phase of the moon, what color socks Fergus in accounting is wearing today – who knows?

      My husband and I both work at Fortune 50 companies, and both applied for those jobs online through the corporate websites. His company contacted him less than a week later to do a phone screen and schedule the first interview. My company contacted me 3.5 months after I applied (yes, months).

  37. Poet Laureate*

    At my desk
    Upon a chair
    How I wish
    To not be there.

    I have pushed
    I have prod
    To fit this mold
    To make this job

    Looking back
    At years of waste
    Sadly, in
    a career of haste

    But, how to change
    and how to shove
    the skills I have
    to skills I love?

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Oh how I know this dreadful pain you bear
      When work — nay, toil — all satisfaction lacks.
      But what to do when every day’s despair
      A burden adds upon your struggling back?
      Here, first, your spirit you must gently tend
      Lest melancholy never let you free.
      You shine your best when hope is in your hand,
      And cheer will feed your work’s vitality.
      When is a skill far more than simply skill?
      When diverse works its structure may support.
      When every business has broad roles to fill,
      It’s rare to have a skill you cannot port.
      My friend, I’ll cheer you on each day and night
      And trust that soon you’ll find the job that’s right!

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Thank you! I’m terribly fond of both the sonnet form and ballad meter – either way, iambic heaven!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      So you list
      The skills you love
      And you post
      Like above

      Then you wait
      For the brilliant here
      And your info they will incubate.

      (I will be under my desk.)

    4. Jean (just Jean)*

      Keep reading AAM, my friend,
      to find solutions without end
      and deep emotional support
      while you a happier work life chart.

      With wisdom here—all kindly spoke
      by souls who range from sleep to woke
      and work paths middling, high, and low—
      you’ll mix your own thoughts and past deeds,
      determine which road next you need,
      what skills to deepen, source to read,
      or heartfelt warning “Don’t!” to heed.
      In time your confidence will grow,
      your next direction’s image glow
      inside your mind, upon a page,
      behind a desk, atop a stage.
      Propelled by Plan A, B, or C
      you’ll forward move and calmer be.

    5. Zuisho*

      There was a poor soul in a chair
      Who’d succumbed to thoughts of despair.
      Alas we can’t force
      A reversal of course,
      But we can versify while we repair.

  38. And Now A Mouse*

    Product Managers, Developers, DBAs, & people who understand these things! Can you recommend beginner Resources for Cosmos DB, .NET…..etc?

    This is a very specific cry for help, but I’m hoping someone can at least point me in the right direction. I was recently promoted to a product management position focused on internal tools and architecture, and I am in the process of transitioning now (Yay!). I’m a SME when it comes to USING these tools and products, but I’m coming into my new role with no concept of the development side of things. As in – literal NONE; I don’t even know enough to be able to ask intelligent questions at this point; no coding background, no software development, etc. For example, I jumped on wikipedia really quick yesterday to read up on Cosomos DB and ended up 5 articles deep ON THE FIRST SENTENCE as I had to click to follow key words to figure out what they meant.

    And while I know I don’t need to be an expert on these things to own the products, some kind of base knowledge seems like it would be useful so I’m not constantly pestering the rest of the team with “can you explain that?” and generally slowing down their velocity to cater to my ignorance.

    Can anyone recommend any laymen resources for Cosmos DB, .NET, database architecture theory (is this even a thing?????); Heck I don’t even know what I need at this point. I’m willing to take an intro class on my own time; I can learn from a book if it’s really written for the uninitiated layman, and not someone with a basic understanding of coding/db architecture/software develpment. Is there a Cosmos DB for Dummies (I though that would be a joke, BUT IT’S REALLY NOT OMG)? Is the intro documentation through Microsoft basic enough, or will it assume I’m at least a semi-competent developer so I need to start somewhere else and work my way up to that? I’m willing to put the work in here to learn; I just don’t even know where to start. Help?

    1. Samiratou*

      Check out free course sites like edx.org, udacity, coursera, codecademy, etc. They have many free intro-type courses that might get you started with the concepts and lingo and point you in the right direction.

      I started Harvard’s CS50 through edx, for similar reasons. I was trying to increase technical knowledge both so I can communicate better with technology teams and so I could start learning what I could to do tech support for a product that had been basically abandoned by the company. I haven’t finished it, and have learned I will never be a programmer, but even the first few lectures taught me a lot about the language and how to think about things. Their lectures are also out on YouTube.

      1. And Now A Mouse*

        Thank you! I will check these out this weekend. And that’s exactly what I need. The language and the mental framework.
        I love learning new things, but I’ve kind of forgotten (in my old role) what it feels like to be at the bottom of the learning curve. Starting from zero is hard and daunting, but I’m kind of excited too.

    2. OtterB*

      Depending on the dynamics, you might not want to do this, but if your team respects the knowledge you bring to the project, you might ask them to suggest resources. Tell them you don’t expect to acquire their level of expertise but you need to know enough to understand discussions. That may be better for the project than trying to gloss over your need to learn.

    3. Jaguar*

      Is it important you know how to code? The resources Samiratou recommends are good for diving into learning how to code, but first you should know what is actually expected of you. If you don’t know what is expected of you in your role, saying “I need to know coding from databases up to UI” is like jumping in the pacific in California and swimming west with the idea that you’ll stop when you reach shore.

      As to those specific technologies, you can start thinking about “Cosmos DB” as “SQL” – if you learn how SQL databases work conceptually, that should be enough to understand what Cosmos DB is (a cloud SQL database). .NET is Microsoft’s pretty massive and, IMO, byzantine framework of all their different technologies, but the most important one is C#, which is a Java-like (not JavaScript) language. If you develop a conceptual understanding of C#, that should be enough to start feeling comfortable. I would recommend watching YouTube videos or Lynda.com videos that go over those topics at a high level. But, really, more important is to understand what is expected of you in this role and then aim to hit those targets. You don’t need to understand pass-by-reference/pass-by-value in C#, even though it’s an introductory concept, to understand conceptually how software is written in C#. If you don’t have a destination in mind, it can be really easy to get lost in the weeds learning coding.

      1. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

        I never fully understood the .NET concept, even after I attended a course to learn. At one point I gave up and accepted that if my code worked as expected I would call it a day. Even now, years after that I still get lots of calls for .NET gigs that I refuse on the spot.
        BTW isn’t Lynda paid? Every video I’ve ever tried to watch is behind a paywall. Maybe it’s for my country only.

        1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          The high level view is that you’ve got a group of languages (C#, VB.NET, F# (I’ve never met anyone who uses F#)) that can all do the same things, and after they’re compiled, they all end up the same.

          So conceivably you could have a project with code written in multiple languages (one per file, many files per project) that all works together after it’s compiled. I’ve seen this once in the wild (C# and VB.NET).

          I’ve taken classes on programming in C#. I’ve done work in VB.NET – even though the syntax of the two languages is wildly different, I was able to pick it up very quickly between knowing another .NET language and the built in hints (IntelliSense) in my development environment.

        2. Jaguar*

          Lynda is paid but it’s not very expensive and you get a trial period. Their tutorials are very good, though (although, there are a lot of YouTube series that have closed the gap and even moved past YouTube in some subjects).

        3. And Now A Mouse*

          I am currently compiling a list of likely Lynda courses. My company has a membership that I can use, so that’s a good idea. And yes, really what I’m looking for is a conceptual understanding of what’s going on in the back end, not necessarily a technical or practical understanding.

          Thanks for all these suggestions! I had kind of an “OH NOOOOO” moment after a meeting yesterday that went way over my head, but I’m feeling better again today. Touched base with my mentor on the team, too, which helped.

      2. Tau*

        if you learn how SQL databases work conceptually, that should be enough to understand what Cosmos DB is (a cloud SQL database)

        It’s… not really, though? As far as I can tell it falls more in the NoSQL side of things – there’s a SQL API, sure, but it specifically says that it’s used to query JSON documents, and there’s also a MongoDB API, a Cassandra API, a key-value store interface, etc. That’s a pretty big difference from your average SQL-based relational database like MSSQL, Postgres, etc.

        Which isn’t to say that knowing the basics of SQL databases isn’t going to be helpful, because then you know what the alternative is and what a non-relational/schemaless/etc. database exists in contrast to. But I’m pretty sure that thinking of CosmosDB as a SQL database is not going to lead you anywhere useful.

        1. Jaguar*

          Hrm. Looks like you might be right and I just assumed it was an extension of their existing Azure infrastructure.. I use a lot of Azure’s cloud SQL Server services but Cosmos DB looks like it might be API/JSON-based.

          Nevermind what I said about learning SQL, And Now A Mouse.

          1. And Now A Mouse*

            No worries! I think the only thing I did manage to retain about CosmosDB in my research last week was that is was NoSQL. I don’t know what that means yet! But I learned it :/

            Thanks again for your help!

    4. J.B.*

      If you want a conceptual overview of databases, Stanford has some really good online open courses. There are some mini-series that suggest a particular sequence.

  39. Ajaya*

    What do people expect to see on a resume for an entry-level part-time, service oriented resume? Think retail sales associate, food service, hospitality, or usher. I am a full-time professional with years of work experience, and would like to pick up a part time job on the side. Since flexibility and weekend/evening hours are a requirement for me I’ve been looking at standard retail and food service jobs, but have been surprised by the number of jobs requesting to see a resume instead of just filling out a job application. What would employers at these types of jobs expect to see on a resume? I’m assuming they wouldn’t want my standard, professional resume with years of unrelated job experience.

    1. Samiratou*

      I’m trying to remember if I needed to upload a resume when I applied for my part-time big-box retail job. Don’t think so, but that was pretty generic.

      I would say it depends on the job posting. If you’re looking for part-time at a big-box retail chain, in a non-specialized role (eg. electronics sales), don’t worry about it too much. Experience is rarely required in that context.

      What requirements are listed on the job descriptions? If they have experience requirements, obviously those would go on there, even if they’re old, but know the might not want someone without more current experience. If the listing doesn’t have specific requirements beyond the basics, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. The fact that you have an established, reliable work record probably speaks far more to the hiring manager than any actual experience, unless your work experience would qualify you for higher pay or a specialized role.

      1. Ajaya*

        Ok, so I wouldn’t have to create a simplified version of my existing resume?

        I’ve applied to a few already and never heard back, so I was worried that they were scared away by my professional resume.

        1. CM*

          It could be that they need someone with more schedule flexibility and are scared away more by the hour restrictions.

    2. NaoNao*

      I am in the same exact spot! What I do is list my current and last two professional ‘office’ jobs with a brief, glowing summary of my duties/accomplishments, and then a line “For more about my x career, please see my LinkedIn profile”.
      I then list my retail/customer service experience, and any specialized skills I have or special events/special circumstances (for example, I completely overhauled a vintage shop that was crammed with stock, and furthermore had an unusual layout—and without any of the usual tools! (no carts, racks, bins, etc).

      I think the general things they’re looking for:
      Consistent employment
      Any duties, accomplishments, or circumstances that apply to the current job
      Generally strong communication skills

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreeing and adding:
        Accuracy is a huge, huge deal.
        The work is steady, you never stop moving. They will want you to indicate that you understand this. This could be as simple as, “I like being busy, I like having plenty to do.”
        Problem solving and dealing with people who disagree with you are givens- you have to show you can do that.

        Retail jobs and service jobs are “behind the times” in that people still sometimes talk to the hiring manager before applying or before setting an interview.
        It probably would be good to say that you are looking for part time work for a supplemental income. This way you can find an employer who needs a part-timer for the times you specify. Otherwise you could find yourself with more hassle than it’s worth.

    3. HR preggers*

      A lot of times its not necessarily that they want a resume its that their software requires one. (I’ve shopped a lot of applicant tracking softwares for various industries) I think toning down your normal resume is fine. If you have skills relevant to the industry maybe put those towards the top of your resume and experience on the bottom. If there’s a cover letter option I’d suggest typing a brief message explaining why you are applying. So they know why your overqualified but applying for that type of job.

    4. We Hire A Lot of Part-Timers*

      I work in the survey research industry. We have a call center that works primarily nights and weekends and we hire a lot of people for whom this is a second job. Our interviewers typically work 2-4 evenings a week from 5-9pm and from 4-8 hours on Saturdays (16-30 hours/week). It’s a clean and casual work environment, and wile the job itself is structured and repetitive, the projects are generally meaningful (our focus is in public policy and healthcare).

      We want your actual resume, whatever it is, along with a cover letter that explains why this particular job is of interest to you. We can train people to do the job if they have basic computer and people skills, so we look as much at why someone is interested in the job as we do at what particularly relevant experience they have. Second job to save up for a down payment on a house? Good. Student looking for hours that don’t interfere with classes? Yup. Recent grad with a full-time job looking to pay down student loans? Sure! Stay at home parent who wants to do some work at times when his/her partner can be home with the kids? Come on in! We find that people who approach the position as a job that meets their purpose/needs rather than thinking of it as a career are better fits. After all, it’s part-time and we’re giving you a flexible schedule, and in turn there may be a week or two between projects when we don’t have work for you.

      For what it’s worth, we start these positions at $12/hour in a small, New England city. Monthly performance bonuses are up to $3/hour. We have a paid time off benefit, but there are no health benefits for these positions.

      1. Ajaya*

        Thanks for sharing your perspective! It’s really helpful to know that the hiring managers would appreciate that level of transparency.

  40. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

    Today someone at the office said one employee “went to see backend implementations” for his holidays at the Caribbean. I’m still laughing.

    1. C Average*

      Nice. A colleague and I cannot stop contriving excuses to talk about ball fringe at work. (I work in a fabric store. “Ball fringe” is the true, actual name for that seventies-style trim with dangling pom-poms.)

    2. Britt*

      Our company frequently used the phrase “data dump” when we needed to export info from company software to excel. got a chuckle every time

    3. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      I work in IT and I’ve occasionally overheard conversations about….sharding. Which, um, phonetically sounds like the other one.

    4. Anonymous Coward*

      I learned from a coworker that the spinny thing you see on the screen when a page is loading is called a “throbber”. When it doesn’t load and just spins forever? A “hung throbber”.

      It was funny the first time he said it, if somewhat rude. But when he kept explaining that to various groups, and laughing, it lost its charm.

  41. SurpriseScarf*

    I commented two weeks ago and wanted to let you all know I GOT THE JOB!!! Thanks Alison and AAM hive!

    So now I have a new question – I accepted the offer last week, and now have 2 weeks until start. HR email said to contact my new manager for where/when to report the first day. Is it better to ask now, so far away from my start date, or should I wait until a week before, and what do I say to my new manager in this first email exchange?

    2. Ama*

      I think it’s fine to just email something like “Hi, I’m so excited to be starting on (start date). (Name of HR contact) said to ask you when/where to report that day, what would you like me to do?

      I’d actually go ahead and ask now because sometimes the hiring manager will have forgotten that they need to figure that out — or they realize they’ll be out of the office all that day for a meeting or need to rearrange something and this will give them plenty of time to work that out.

    3. Specialk9*

      Do it now. Your new manager has to get you a place to sit, a computer, set you up in the system, etc. It’s usual to contact them now.

  42. Tara2*

    Oh my god, I am working for a super micromanager. Luckily, he’s not technically my manager, and was just overseeing a project I was working on, so hopefully I want have to deal with this too often. But I do graphics arts stuff (though its not my real job title. I’m a social media manager, they just don’t have a graphic artist and I know how to use the pen tool and used to be a photographer so they figured “close enough”?).

    He must have made 100 corrections and changes to this small flyer I made. Some of the changes were to change back changes he’d made previously. I think he just wished he knew illustrator and didn’t want me to design it, but wanted to have me just place the stuff while he did the flyer.

    At one point, he made me change the subject line of the email I sent him of the flyer file from “Flyer Draft” to “Proposed Flyer”. I nearly lost it.

    1. Bridgette*

      He sucks. He also sounds like a control freak. I hope you don’t have to deal with him too often.

    2. Annie Moose*

      That’s honestly hilarious. He’s such a micromanager that he made you change the email subject line?? The email that was between you and him??? That’s absurd! Has this guy not got anything better to do with his time?

      Some people just want to feel important by sticking their fingers in every possible aspect of a project.

      1. WonderingHowIGotHere*

        Yes, and don’t they just make you wish they’d stick their fingers in a plug socket instead?

    3. Bea W*

      I’m working with this guy’s twin sister, and I’m going mad. This project is several years long. I just can’t! May your torture be much shorter lived.

  43. BadPlanning*

    I have a coworker who is either struggling but doesn’t ask for help, doesn’t care or doesn’t realize that we’re starting to think of him as Useless Coworker. Not exactly sure what/if I should do something. I’m not assigned to mentor him. And to be frank, I’ve been burned before by coworkers of similar personality confusing me taking an active role in helping them out with personal interest.

    1. Samiratou*

      Do you share a manager? If so, have you raised specific concerns with your boss? If you’re not in a mentor role and your culture isn’t one where people do the “just an FYI/just so you know” type tips, there may not be much you can do to help him directly, but his boss should definitely be made aware (if he isn’t already). You could bring this up to your boss even if you don’t share a manager, but it gets trickier.

      Regardless, though, if his boss is aware and doesn’t care, well, there’s not much you can do unless his uselessness directly impacts your work and then about all you can do is bring that to your boss and find out how they’d like you to handle it.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Do nothing.
      The last time I worked with one of these, I just made sure that I laid out my own work area with my tasks that I will do and I let him go live his life. He progressed to a point that conversations no longer made sense so that gave everyone even more to talk about.

  44. Tech Imposter*

    I work in higher ed IT, and I had my annual review the other day, and it went great – I’m very happy in my job and my bosses are happy with me. The one thing my boss wanted me to work on though, is being more assertive. She said I am a great employee and I have a lot of upward mobility potential, but I should really capitalize on the knowledge I can learn from my coworkers and other teams. Also, when it comes to resolving issues, to be a little more assertive and push forward with getting results.

    So I have no issue with asking my coworkers for help more often – I figure, we are all a team, let’s help each other out. Where I’m struggling is getting up the nerve to be more assertive with other people in my division. I came into IT from a more app support/business analytics background – so my foundational knowledge of IT infrastructure is lacking. I have an English BA and never took any formal CS classes in college, and the IT training I have done in my job is mostly application specific. So I feel like I have no standing to push veteran IT folks for results, because of my lack of knowledge and experience.

    Resolving this issue will take time as I gain knowledge and experience, but what can I do in the meantime? I feel like a lot of the veterans around here just sort of ignore me and my problems until one of my more experienced coworkers steps in. My boss gave me some good coaching, but what strategies have helped other people out there? I struggle a lot with imposter syndrome (because of my background, and I am young/young looking and a woman), so it’s anxiety-producing for me to get out there and push for results, especially when we are all super busy. Thanks everyone!

    1. Gloucesterina*

      I’m in higher ed and know that the hierarchies can be weird and complex (especially on the academic side, but this can be true in admininstrative/staff roles as well). So the 1st thing I’d highlight (at the risk of stating something that’s already super obvious to you): it’s not a personal problem caused by you that it’s hard to be assertive in this context!

      Since I’m not in IT: what does it mean in your context to “push for results” from senior folks? Does that mean that they provide certain information or need to complete certain things in order for you to do your job? Or am I missing the mark entirely?

      1. Tech Imposter*

        In this context, I think it means when someone goes “Welp I don’t see any problem on my side” to not just accept that answer. I do my best to provide all logs, error codes, etc up front so they have all the information they need from me, but if a server admin pulls up just one monitoring application and looks at once timeframe, but doesn’t really go through logs or anything like that, then I need to push harder to get that admin to dig deeper.

        The culture here is often that people take a cursory glance at their portion of a machine and if they don’t spot anything immediately, they just say “not my problem.” I can certainly ask them to go through logs or dig deeper, but I have trouble asking for that when they are busy, and also asking again if the first answer is “no.” Of course if they have a reasonable explanation as to why they can’t do that (like the log level I need wasn’t enabled, that data is not collected, etc.) then I would accept that, but most of the time it’s just, “Welp I don’t see anything here, I’ve got other stuff to do.” I feel like I’m being rude and pushy and telling them how to do their job if I ask them to take another look.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Not an IT person, but sometimes I have found it helpful to tell people WHY I need to know something. “I know this means more work on your part, but I need to see X so I can ascertain A, B and C.” If I don’t get movement, I go in again and take the boss’ name in vein. “Hey, can you help me? Boss wants me to figure out A, B and C so I reeeally need to see X in order to get Boss what she wants here.”

      2. Specialk9*

        I’m a very young looking (but not young) woman SME/manager. My job means that I work across the org, with super specialized knowledge of my stuff, and I need a superficial knowledge of what all of them do. In short, I am often the most ignorant person in the room about their stuff, especially the techies. It requires this weird mix of humility and confidence. I’ve learned that my instincts are good – when I think there’s a problem there usually is, when I think someone is BSing me they usually are, etc.

        My strategies are to have relentless organization, establish friendly relationship with key knowledge people 1-on-1 (coffee, lunch, IM), being very friendly but not hesitating to go back to my manager (or theirs) if they’re F-ing with me, and occasionally being stern… But above all you must have inside your own head confidence in your own ability (‘yeah I don’t know this but I’m smart, capable, and can handle things’). It is all trial and error and occasionally exhausting, but also kinda fun to get things to work.

        Sometimes though you can’t win, no matter what, and in that case you need to move on. (Even if you’re comfortable and scared of change.)

        That said, you work in higher ed IT! There are classes available to you.

        Another thought, check out cybersecurity. It’s huge and growing and well funded, and there are spots for people with broader non-techie resumes. Some guys at my company just took a cybersecurity program (~1 year) and started at $100k as entry level.

    2. neverjaunty*

      If these veteran It folks have a tendency to go “welp looks good to me” because they don’t want to be bothered, the issue isn’t your undergrad degree.

      I highly recommend the mental exercise of What Would Chad Do? that has been posted on AAM in the past. Chad Chaddington IV, privileged white dude and all around chill and self confident guy, would not hesitate to say “Hey, friend, I know it looks good on your end but I need you to take a look at why the rice-sculpture algorithm is broken.” Chad would not feel anxious about his undergrad degree, because even if he doesn’t have the skills, he can figure it out, right?

      WWCD.

  45. LDN Layabout*

    UK people!

    Who has/hasn’t made it into work this week?

    I’ve had to be in the office all week (big project – if it were any other week I’d work from home) and I’ve never dreaded a commute more.

    1. caledonia*

      We have been off work since 1 pm Weds as our workplace was closed. It was hoped we would have been open today as the red warning was downgraded for all staff/students who could safely make it in but we are now closed until Monday – although the library etc are now open during the weekend.

      I could’ve really done with being at work tbh, at least today. Oh well, it’ll keep for next week.

    2. Tara2*

      Is it… really snowy there?

      Just curious, because in Canada its the weird spring week with a mix of super warm days and some freezing days. We were supposed to get a “really bad” snow storm over night last night, but there is only a small flurry (I don’t imagine snow plows were even needed).

      1. caledonia*

        It is quite snowy. There is also the fact, as mentioned in a different comment thread above, that the UK isn’t as set up as Canada because generally speaking, this much snow is rare (and so wide-spread) and therefore our infrastructure isn’t set up to cope.

        1. Tara2*

          That makes sense. I once lived in a town that was designated as “historical” and so they weren’t allowed to properly plow/salt so I get how much that makes a difference. Probably even worse, though, because at least we were used to driving in terrible conditions.

          1. caledonia*

            We don’t have to have snow tires, the transport minister was actively twitting that people should not be attempting to drive due to the conditions, the buses stopped running and there were limited trains. A lot of the shops were closed or closing early yesterday.

            It’s better today in that at least the buses are running.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              A Scottish YouTuber I follow was posting snow videos. I don’t know where she is exactly, but the snow was very deep. It was hilarious watching her dogs try to run through it–they’re corgi-sized and it was nearly over their heads.

      2. LDN Layabout*

        Our infrastructure isn’t set up for it, people don’t have the clothes for it, people don’t have the /footwear/ for it…For example, my flat is above a shop and it has a back entrance. Which means I am trying to go up two flights of outdoor metal stairs. With no salt/grit on them.

        The last time people remember snow like this happening is…10 or so years ago?

          1. LDN Layabout*

            I’m down south and I can’t remember it ever being this bad? Not for an ongoing basis, this is almost a full week now.

            I’m still in the office running final reports and hoping I can get home and under a duvet soon…

      3. Thlayli*

        It’s not just the snow there’s a big storm at the same time. It’s a once-every-20-years combination.

      4. IT Squirrel*

        As others have said, it’s not particularly snowy compared to other countries, but we don’t get it very often so we aren’t set up for it – and it isn’t worth investing in the infrastructure for the few days of snow we might get once every few years. Cheaper overall to just shut down and wait for it to melt.

        I believe Scotland (and the North of England) tends to be more prepared only because they get more snow – it’s quite a large weather difference between the north and south of the UK if you consider how small the distance actually is!

    3. lollyscrambler*

      Made it in, in London, but the buses were so crowded and slippery it seemed dangerous.

      1. LDN Layabout*

        I’m on one of the tube lines that hasn’t had issues yet, but I’m bracing myself if the bus becomes necessary, especially the double deckers, I hate those bus stairs anyway, let alone now.

    4. PX*

      They closed our office yesterday and worked from home today! No buses were running and most roads that I saw have not been gritted, so happy to not be out there.

    5. Claire (Scotland)*

      I’m a teacher and my school has been closed since Wednesday so no work for me. I’ve been going to the Sainsbury’s round the corner from my flat each day just to get out for a few minutes!

    6. Rookie Manager*

      I shut our office for 3 days! Felt a little guilty as I live on the coast but work in Glasgow… round here is very manageable but where the office is has been at a gridlock for days.

    7. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I walk to work and Thursday was a sloppy mess and my boots arent really flexible so now my (bad) foot hurts a bit. Today was fine in sneakers, but about 2 pm I looked outside and it was definitely time to bail. Honestly, it felt like right before Christmas when no one is around!

    8. Anonymous Ampersand*

      North East England here. I made it in Tues and Wed no probs – somehow on Tues even with the snow I got in quicker than normal! But on Wednesday morning there was thundersnow and a proper blizzard and as I was thinking I might need to leave early a message went round that our office was being closed at lunchtime and to work from home (the vast majority of us can). I am having internet issues so couldn’t work Wed pm then my child’s school was shut yesterday. Worked from home today.

      I cannot believe the snow and dreadful wind. I remember that 2009-2010 winter was dreadful but I think this is worse, although so far it hasn’t lasted as long.

    9. Bagpuss*

      We sent everyone home at 3 yesterday (and one employee ended up having to abandon her car and walk the last but home). We also took the decision last night to stay closed today, as police and the met office were advising against all non-essential travel.
      The worst of it was yesterday afternoon and evening, here – icy winds and heavy snow. I have 3 foot deep drifts n my driveway.

    10. Freya*

      I made it in until Thursday then got snowed in and had to WFH while kicking myself for not taking home some stuff I really needed meaning I’m now behind.

    11. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

      I got sent home a bit early on Tuesday and haven’t been back since! Mostly this is because I work outside and it would have been really pointless to be on site. We still have several inches of snow on the ground although it is slowly getting smaller. Still having the odd snow showers though.

    12. NeverNicky*

      I normally work from home in East Anglia but had to be in Yorkshire for meetings Mon-Wed. Getting home Wednesday took 6 hours rather than 4 but at least the train was a better option than road – the A1 and A14 were chaos.

    13. IT Squirrel*

      Our office started clearing out Thursday lunchtime as the schools started closing, even though the snow hadn’t arrive yet.
      I’m on a 24 hour section, so no snow days for us. I still managed to cycle my way in though (it was more of a workout than usual plowing through the snow!) and we did a bit of swapping so those of us local have done extra shifts and the ones further away didn’t have to risk driving.

      No bread or milk to be found though. What is it with people panic buying food at the mention of snow…

  46. Non profit question*

    Question for people that work at non-profits. Does your agency encourage employees to donate (beside United Way campaigns)? Our marketing director recently told us they would like to say that their employees are supporting our capital campaign. We have been active for almost 30 years and have had capital campaigns before but this is the first time they have explicitly asked employees to donate. Just curious how other non profits handle this.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Ours does (non-profit private college), but I refuse to donate. I think it’s really rude to ask your workers to send you back part of their paycheck. I also think, given that most of our salaries are below market rate and we’re working here because we support the mission, it’s grossly inappropriate to expect us to be willing to take even less take home pay. I don’t owe my employer money.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        I previously worked at a private college and their donation tactics were super rude. And it was always back to the college….at my current university, they send a glossy postcard out once a year about donating part of your paycheck back, but it’s very easily ignored (in addition to the state campaign I mentioned below). But at the private school – UGH. Dozens of fliers, dozens of emails, videos of all the super rich professors and administrators gushing about how *blessed* they were to give back (on their 6-figure salaries of course). We even had special meetings called once a semester where the president and whatever speaker would gush about it some more. Just one of the many reasons I’m so glad I don’t work there anymore!

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I work at a state university so we’re non-profit, and yes they encourage us to donate via a yearly state giving campaign. There is usually one person in each division who coordinates the communication, but it’s not very intrusive. Basically just some emails go out and they put fliers in the break room. No one has ever implied that we’re required or STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to donate. They also have tons of different charities so you can pick what you want.

      1. Nana*

        At the non-profit where I worked, there was gentle encouragement to donate…and people who dutifully provided a $5 check each year. Easy-peasy.

    3. Academic Librarian in the Midwest*

      We were asked to contribute to our library’s charity fund right after the university purchased a $400,000 building they won’t even use for years and initiated a supremely stupid marketing campaign that they paid $800,000 for.

      And I didn’t get a raise last year.

      And my budget has been shrinking every year.

      So, no, I did not make a contribution to our fund!

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        I’ve never donated, either. I think some of the state campaign stuff is good, but I’m really reluctant to donate back to my university, when they are doing the same thing – HUUUUUUUGE STEM building is being built, right after another STEM building was built, and we haven’t had any COL raises in the past 3 years. Because we need at least a dozen STEM buildings.

    4. cathammock*

      My organization hasn’t done this yet, but I get the sense that expecting staff to donate to their own organization is fairly common in the nonprofit sector. Whether it’s right or fair to expect that is another issue entirely.

      I remember when this question was asked in the Nonprofit Happy Hour Facebook group, most folks were indignant at the suggestion that anyone wouldn’t donate to the organization they work for. “Why should anyone support your cause if you don’t?” was the general attitude. Got to the point where people were suggesting that you shouldn’t be allowed to work in the sector if you weren’t willing to “support” your organization.

      Like I haven’t already volunteered to get paid less and work longer hours with fewer benefits than I would in the same role in for-profit. Sure. OK.

      1. Academic Librarian in the Midwest*

        … in other words, non-profit “work” should be reserved for elites who don’t really need jobs.

    5. Afiendishthingy*

      I’ve worked for a few nonprofits. One out of maybe four actively solicited donations from employees. It was a really dysfunctional agency and I was getting paid $20k a year – on the east coast, in 2010-ish -for a doing a really physically, emotionally and mentally demanding job (human services).

      I did not contribute.

    6. This Daydreamer*

      The most pressure I’ve had to deal with was being asked if I used Amazon Smile when I mentioned an order I had just placed.

    7. KayEss*

      There was a big push at the last nonprofit private university I worked at to get staff to donate, like along the lines of a “staff giving day” with the goal of a certain number of contributors rather than a total dollar amount, and a lot of promotion of that in the run-up to the day itself. I was actually willing to kick in a token amount, like $10, because the majority of the students were on some kind of school-provided financial aid and they were good kids, and I was actually proud of working there and supporting the school’s (purported) mission at the time. Then literally the day before the big giving day, there was a story in the student newspaper about how the school had forbidden one of the student clubs from donating the proceeds of a fundraiser they ran to Planned Parenthood. So instead of giving $10 to the school, I gave $50 to PP, because spite.

    8. Legal Beagle*

      No, never. And I’ve worked at very small non-profits with less than $1M budgets and very large orgs with over $250M budgets. I would find it very inappropriate to be pushed for donations at any non-profit. Working there IS my contribution to the organization, in my view. I don’t know why people think this will make the organization look good, particularly – it seems backwards to ask employees to return any portion of the money paid to them by their employer back to the employer.

  47. Samiratou*

    Has anyone dealt with “mistaken identity” in the workplace? Not getting someone else’s emails or anything like that, but people from other teams or departments not realizing you and someone with a similar name (or not, even) aren’t the same person? Did hilarity ensue? Any good stories?

    Dealing with this now at my part time retail gig. I have an unusual name IRL, and another new-ish part-timer has a similarly unusual name that’s off by a letter, and apparently she kind of sucks. Our hours don’t overlap much, and it seems there are people in other departments who don’t realize that there are two of us, so they’re confusing Samiralou’s actions (or lack thereof) with me. This is a new experience for me, having an unusual name, and I’m curious to hear from people who might have other stories.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Not to that extent, but… at one time, there was another woman in my office who was the same amount overweight that I am. When I started straightening my hair, I noticed a couple of people said “Hi Jane” when we passed in the hallway instead of “Hi Rusty.” So I guess that even though she’s 10 years older than me and dresses completely different from me and has a different complexion, certain people only knew “there are two overweight women with similar-colored hair in the Chocolate Teapot division; Jane is the one with straight hair and Rusty is the one with curly hair,” and thus when I straightened my hair I became Jane to them. Kind of an annoying shorthand, to me.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      In my previous department, there were about 5-6 young women with long dark hair, and we were constantly mixed up. I was called by every one of their names, got their emails, etc. Most of the time we could easily correct people but some stubborn old dudes held out (old professors who should have retired 20 years ago).

      My new department gets confused with another one on campus – the other department is in charge of the main campus SIS database, and my department handles every other database. But of courses people just think “database” and pick the department with “data” in the name (mine). So I’ve gotten a lot of rude emails demanding project updates for a system I barely access and don’t support. Good times!

      2. Elizabeth H.*

        Off topic but would you mind sharing, how did you end up working in higher ed databases? Do you have background in IT/systems/programming? How did you get your current job? I work adjacent to that type of stuff but wish I did it directly.

    3. Kelly L.*

      I once had the president of my old job call me up and unload a long lecture about how displeased some VIPs had been with the event “I” had just thrown. It was probably at least five minutes before I could get a word in edgewise and ask her, as deferentially as possible, WTF she was talking about (obviously I didn’t phrase it like that!). Some other Kelly in a different department had been in charge of the event.

    4. C Average*

      So, at my former job, there were two women (Lynn and Connie) in my department who had been there for decades and were regarded–accurately–as absolute treasures and fonts of wisdom. I was introduced to both of them within my first week, along with many, many other people.

      For the next five years, I received and replied to emails from both of them. I said hello and had brief conversations with both of them in the hallways. I would say I had an excellent working relationship with them both.

      Five years into my time at this company, at a department-wide function, Lynn received an award, and the woman I had always assumed was Connie went forward to receive it. I realized I had had Lynn and Connie backward in my mind for my entire five years with the company! I told Connie about it and she laughed and laughed. I’m sure she told Lynn, too. (I wasn’t as close to Lynn, but Lynn and Connie were friends.)

      I felt like such an idiot, but it was really funny.

    5. Squeeble*

      For about the first year here, I was constantly confused with another woman. I don’t think we really look that much alike, but we did start at about the same time, are similar in height and hair color, and have similar dispositions, so I guess I can see it.

      I occasionally get this woman’s mail, and someone once asked me how I liked working with her boss, to which I was like, uh, he’s fine I guess when I…pass him in the hallway?

    6. Trig*

      I have a very similar name to a previous coworker, though I go by a short form. Think Theresa/Therese with me going by Teri, or similar. She was senior to me, but we had the same function and the same manager. Our company emails are firstname.lastname@company.com, and mine is for my full name. To make matters worse, the way you pronounce her name if you’re a franco is the same way you’d pronounce my full name if you’re an anglo. (Important note in my biligual city.)

      About a year ago, we had a big round of layoffs. This included my manager and my similar-name colleague. I happened to be in the office that day, while they were working from home. I got quite a few people come by my desk to express sympathy, and at least one of them definitely thought I was the one who’d been let go. It would have been funny if it weren’t so sad!

      I’m sure there were other little confusions between us for the time we worked together, but I was never privy to any.

    7. MMM*

      At my last job I was routinely mixed up with another girl whose first name was similar to my last name (let’s say my last name is Martin, her first name is Martine). We worked in different departments and the majority of our interaction came from us forwarding each other the emails meant for the other person or walking over files that got hand delivered to the wrong person. Somehow, I never got mixed up with the girl who actually shared my very common first name.

    8. Susan K*

      Something absolutely bizarre used to happen to me at my old job. When I call someone in another department, I start by saying, “Hi, this is Susan K from Accounting.” On numerous occasions, the person answering the phone would reply, “Oh, hi, Jenny.” There was another woman in my department named Jenny, and I suppose we had some similar physical characteristics, but I don’t think we looked so much alike that people would get us mixed up. Still, I would have understood if I passed someone in the hall and the person thought I was Jenny and said, “Hi, Jenny,” but in these cases, I JUST SAID, “This is Susan K,” so why on earth did they still think I was Jenny?! This happened on numerous occasions with several different people, and I am still completely baffled.

      1. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

        Do your office phones have caller ID? Ours do, but don’t show your name to YOU, only to those you are calling. So you have to put in a telecom ticket to get your phone to show your name, versus for instance your predecessor, or whoever had that phone before you. My phone in my second office says my boss’ name, and BOY do people answer that one with alacrity. Ha ha ha.

        I am one number of the entire university help desk line (I am the kelp desk) – and I get several calls per day sometimes. I could get a new number but I actually find it amusing and sometimes I just help the person (like if they are calling about an obvious phishing email).

      2. Anonymous Ampersand*

        My sister apparently always gets called a name that’s similar to hers but… different.

        She was once introduced to someone of this name. Hilarity ensued.

    9. shep*

      My workplace has increased quite a bit in size over the past few years, and the old tradition of taking new folks through to meet everyone in the office has died a quiet death. There are people who’ve been here AT LEAST a year, and while I recognize their faces and have a shortlist of likely names for them, I don’t ACTUALLY know who they are unless I work with them frequently. It’s so embarrassing. So now I try to surreptitiously peek into people’s offices and match them with their nameplates–except that some people are in cubes and DON’T have nameplates (or at least not immediately evident ones) so I like in slight mortal terror of accidentally putting my foot in my mouth.

    10. Master Bean Counter*

      My old boss started dating someone with my name. Except he never really talked about his personal life. One day the receptionist asked to see his new car, as she was considering a similar one for herself. The boss tossed her the keys and said, “Take it for a test drive, but don’t let Bean Counter know. She’ll be upset.” Receptionist came out of his office gave me a strange look and left.
      Down the road, the other Bean Counter showed up to go to lunch with him one day. Introductions were made. They left. Everybody started telling me they thought I was dating the boss. Laughs all around.
      Fast forward to the first day I’m training my replacement. Boss gathers everybody around and tells us that he’s taking a job in a town 200 miles away. His girl friend also lives in this town. Coworker asks if Bean Counter is happy with this. My replacement turns her head and just stares at me. Explanations followed after everybody stopped laughing.

      1. Fabulous*

        Have you told this story on here before? Sounds slightly familiar. Still hilarious either way!

      2. Hobgoblin*

        My boss once brought an older guy by my office and introduced him as “Lisa’s dad”. It seemed strange that he wanted me to meet the HR specialist’s father but, ok, whatever. Yeah, a few weeks later, I learned his fiancé was also Lisa…

    11. CM*

      I had the email issue. I have the same name as someone hired in IT. I had a hard time convincing IT that I did not in fact work for them and would they please stop assigning me tickets.

    12. CheeryO*

      Ohhh yes. I have a coworker who’s a few years younger than me and started about a year after I did. We have very similar first names (both “M” names), and our last names rhyme. We also look vaguely alike, to the extent that I was creeped out at first that they hired a mini-me. We get mixed up alllllll the time – our admin gives us each other’s calls, people from other departments constantly call us by each other’s names or copy the wrong person on emails, and some people have taken to jokingly calling us by a mash-up couple name. Luckily we sit next to each other and are pretty good friends, so it’s easy to laugh off and straighten people out.

    13. Ingray*

      My boyfriend and his brother work at the same place, their email format is firstinitiallastname@place, and their first initials are right next to each other on a keyboard, so he constantly gets his brother’s emails and vice versa.

      I used to work with a woman who had a very similar first name to mine and the same last initial and we frequently got voicemails intended for the other. We used to call each other name twins. Luckily it is no big deal to forward a voicemail!

    14. I'll come up with a clever name later.*

      Apparently I have a face that people think they know. About twice a week I have a stranger I’ve never met coming up to me to say “You look so familiar, where did we meet” or some version thereof. At my last company one of the higher ups thought he knew me and every time he saw me he’d stop me for conversation. It was that weird conversation that you have with someone you know you know but can’t remember…except that I knew he didn’t know me. So every time it was him saying something along the lines of “Hey you! How have you been!? Long time no see. How is the family doing?” It wasn’t until after the second time he did it that I realized he thought he knew me, but because I hadn’t corrected or questioned him about it either time I realized that there was no easy way to correct him without making it uncomfortable. Fast forward a year when he’s touring the company with a BigWig and our paths crossed. He goes into his routine and the BigWig asks for my name. I give it and you could see the moment he realized he didn’t actually know me at all. His eyes narrowed, then widened and he nodded like he knew me, but after that he would nod in passing with a smile any time we met.

    15. a-no*

      I used to work with a lady who could have been my twin we looked so similar and our names were off by a letter but said the same way. Think Ronnie & Ronit type similar.
      We worked retail in a mall and it took 9 months for our third associate to realize we were not the same person. We were the two full times and third associate was the part time person. I had stopped to get my pay stub while shopping and third associate looked like she saw a ghost.

    16. Asperger Hare*

      My favourite time was when I volunteered at an animal shelter and I shared a name with the pot-bellied pig.

      “Asperger Hare’s made a terrible mess on the carpet.”
      “What?! Ohhh, the *pig*.”

    17. Mephyle*

      It happened a long time ago. Curiously this happened to both me and my husband in our separate, very different workplaces. For both of us, the secretaries sometimes mixed us up with a co-worker who had a somewhat similar name, on occasions passing on a phone call for one mix-up-ee to the other, and giving the mail addressed to one mix-up-ee to the other. The bizarre thing was that each of us differed from our respective mix-up-ee by being 1) a different colour; and 2) having names from totally different languages and ethnicities.

    18. ANONforthis*

      At a former company, there were two young women who had the same role. They were the only two who had this particular job. One of them got involved with a married man who also worked in the same company and whose wife also worked at the company. (Small town with lots of relatives working at the company.) The president called in the woman he assumed was the “other woman” and gave her a lecture about her behavior, but it was the “other” other woman who the talk was intended for. Oops. (I heard this from the innocent and extremely offended woman who got the first lecture.) Ouch@!

    19. Traveling Teacher*

      I have an extremely common name that has a version in just about every European language. At a former job, one particularly outspoken colleague thought my name was CommonVariant2 when its actually CommonVariant1. She went around correcting everyone, telling them my name was actually 2 when it’s 1. Add to that colleagues who consistently called me by RegionalVariant3, and you definitely have a case of mistaken identity!

      I ended up laughing it off, trying to correct people at first, but by the end just basically responding to anything vaguely resembling my actual name. At least the students all got it right!

    20. Elizabeth West*

      Long ago, I worked for the food service company that ran cafeterias in my hometown’s factories. I went by Liz. There was a woman who worked for the factory also named Liz–I’ll call her Liz 2.

      Everyone there knew I was dating Fergus, whom I’d met at work (my boss actually fixed us up). I suddenly started getting all these inquiries about how I was feeling, etc., which puzzled me. After about a week of this, someone came through my register line near the end of lunch break, when no one else was around, and asked if Fergus was excited. About what!? I collared her and asked her why everyone was asking about my health.

      Turns out Liz 2 had unexpectedly gotten pregnant (she was on BC but had also been on antibiotics). With twins! Everyone thought it was me!

      Next time Liz 2 came in, I told her what was going on and we had a good laugh. That’s when she told me about the antibiotics. I’m glad she did, because up until then I hadn’t known they could scuttle your BC pill. D:

    21. kmb*

      I also have a very common name, such that once there were five people at my organization with that name, with various spellings and short forms. I used to sit beside one of them, whose preferred name is one letter shorter than mine, and is easier to pronounce, who is roughly my age and has a similar haircut (her hair is darker in general, but she often dyes it), a vaguely similar build, and we have a decent overlap in interests and are on sibling-teams. I get called her name all the time and she gets called mine sometimes, and I have never gone by her preferred short version, so I don’t think of it as my name. Also, I sometimes can’t tell if people have US confused, or just called one of us the wrong name. Last week I was meeting people she had met a month ago, and for a second he thought I was her, especially because the consonant syllable at the end of my name is is harder to hear.

      Once, I gave a presentation on a Tuesday for a group who was doing a weeklong workshop with us, and then I lead an activity on Tuesday afternoon, and she lead a couple of sessions later in the week, and one of the participants asked her about the projects I was talking about in my Tuesday presentation.

      We also sometimes move in similar social circles, so I’ve met people who think I’m her and vice versa, and our old boss’s new date met me and talked about following me on Instagram and I’m like “nope, that’s the other one.” That boss also had the same name as we do (she goes by the full version or her last name), and I once had a meeting with an external partner, my colleague, and my boss, so all the people at our org in this meeting had the same name.

      I’ve also gotten emails that I can’t actually tell if they were meant to go to her or me. There’s also a person in finance who seems to think I have her job, and would put my purchase card statements in the mailbox of her boss instead of my boss. Even though I do enough purchasing for the function of my job that I am pretty sure this finance person knows who I am and what I work on.

      Actually right now I sit beside one of the other people with that name, but she looks less similar and we have less similar interests and I think people find it easier to separate us mentally.

    22. tamarack and fireweed*

      My ex-boss and sometimes academic advisor is Austrian. In the neighboring division, same department, there’s a Swiss scientist. The two share first names (a common one, which exists with the same spelling in English) and their last names are very similar. Think Peter Blatter and Peter Ladter.. They get confused ALL the time. My original hiring, I learned later, was delayed for months (I thought I was rejected and quite surprised when I was re-contacted with “are you still interested in the job?”) because my documents had ended up on Prof. Ladter’s desk instead of Prof. Blatter’s. (And the “wrong” one is, by the nature of his field of study, regularly away on field work for months at a time. Also, he’s quite neglectful with boring paperwork.) Once, my boss was waiting for a very large travel reimbursement check (several thousand $$) which just didn’t arrive. On pushing, he was informed the check had been issued AND CASHED. By his credit union. He requested a copy of the check and saw the scrawled signature wasn’t his. Went to the credit union… it was the OTHER prof who had received and cashed it (they’re at the same credit union).

      Well, now my ex-boss has two new team members (a postdoc and a PhD student). Their last names are different only in one letter….

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        Oh, and as for myself, I have the exact same name as my stepmother, though I go by a shortened version of my first name. My first job was as a summer intern at her workplace, at age 16. We’re about the same height and both wear glasses, but are not related by blood. We got constant “compliments” about how much we resemble each other, from the people who didn’t know she was my dad’s second wife and not my mother.

  48. MMM*

    I had an initial phone screen for a job and the woman from HR said that the salary for the position was $X-$Y, with the target being somewhere in the middle. $Y is basically the lowest I would be able to go, but I continued with the interview, mainly because it was still at the phone screen stage and also because I figured that if I were to get an offer, I could try to negotiate a salary closer to $Y. Was that a mistake? Technically the salary could work for me if they are willing to go above their “target” but still within the range, but looking back on the interview I don’t know if it was misleading of me.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think it depends on this: Are there no circumstances where $Y would make you happy? And are you really willing to work for $Y for several years? When you are at the TOP of a range, it often means they can’t given raises as easily.

      So, I think it really comes down to, how big is their range and would you honestly be happy with $Y?

      1. bb-great*

        I agree with this, being at the top of their range might impact raises or lack thereof in the future. Also don’t forget about the value of benefits.

      2. MMM*

        I would be happy with $Y for the time being (even if it meant no raise after a year or 2). Just frankly anything much less than $Y wouldn’t be enough to justify/sustain me moving to that very high COL area

    2. Thlayli*

      They said they are willing to go as high as Y so it’s definitely not unethical to stay in.

      Good luck getting Y

    3. Anonymous Questioner*

      I have a similar question. I considered applying for a government position where the salary range for the job was posted as $X-$Z, but the hiring target was $X-$Y. I currently earn about 15% more than $Y & 20% less than $Z. With a government position, you have to jump through hoops to start at more than the starting target range, so ultimately I didn’t apply. The closing date for the job has passed, but now I’m wondering if I should have applied anyway.

  49. Very Anon for This*

    The recent discussion about dramatic changes in appearance day to day has gotten me thinking – is it unprofessional or distracting to wear a binder to work? I am not trans or NB, but I am a queer woman who likes to wear men’s clothes and masculine styles. I am also quite petite and have a large chest, so I will occasionally wear a binder that significantly reduces the size of my chest, depending on my mood and what I’m wearing that day. Ideally, of course, we wouldn’t be noticing the size of our coworkers’ breasts at all, ever, but the difference is very noticeable to me so I imagine it is noticeable to other people. Is it weird to have G-cups one day and B-cups the next? I would think the biggest difference between this and the hairstyle question would be that hair is generally appropriate to comment on (within reason) in the workplace, while breasts most definitely are not.

    1. dr_silverware*

      I think some folks are always going to have a dramatic change in appearance/presentation really stand out to them. Like the comment in the makeup thread about the coworker who usually wore sneakers & no makeup sometimes coming in with heels & a full face–noticeable.

      But you’re already dramatically changing clothing style. I think if someone has a problem that’s what they’d focus on (and they’d be a real tool for doing it). I don’t think your cup size would factor in.

      1. Specialk9*

        If I noticed, I might think that you wear a padded bra normally, or that you were wearing a sports bra, or you had hang-down breasts and were going braless. But I’m not sure I would notice. I try to keep my eyes on professional areas. (I’m a woman, so it’s not quite as taboo to look below the neck as it is for a man, but it seems like a good practice.)

    2. Academic Librarian in the Midwest*

      How could you go from G to B without extreme levels of pain and difficulty breathing?

      1. Very Anon for This*

        There are ways to bind safely. I’m large chested enough that I’m always going to look like I have some breasts but I like the more streamlined look it gives me when I’m wearing certain types of clothes.

      2. NaoNao*

        My guess would be sort of…pancaking gently, so the “outward thrust” isn’t as obvious and the mass is redistributed. Most women’s bras create and “up and out” motion, so that your natural breast shape (which is usually softer and lower) is more emphasized. My guess would be a binder flattens the tissue and lowers it (or allows it to be comfortably low) so that the “profile” reads as a B rather than a G.

    3. Samiratou*

      Do you wear masculine clothes every day (or mostly), so the main change would be to your chest? If so, I would say it’s not that big of a deal, as your general style of dress is something people expect so in my mind it’s more a styling thing at that point.

      1. anna green*

        I agree with this. Also, breasts can look different depending on which bra and/or shirt I am wearing on any given day so I think its more of a thing that people are used to looking different? I don’t think its on the same level as hair that anyone will think any differently of you. Do what you want :)

      2. Very Anon for This*

        Yeah, my overall style is pretty much soft butch, I just have some shirts that fit/look better with a flatter chest.

    4. Wednesday*

      I suspect this will depend on your office, some places are more bigoted than others, but I’ve started binding occasionally at mine and nobody has ever commented on it.. I’m a DD and who’s almost totally flat when bound, which I’m sure is noticeable to other people. I’m sure there are people who think it’s weird but I don’t care what they think. I dress and behave appropriately for the office. If somebody wants to make my tits or lack thereof into a problem they’ll have to come out and say it. :)

      1. Very Anon for This*

        That’s good to hear! Yeah, my office skews young and liberal but also pretty cis hetero so I don’t think anyone would have a problem with it so much as be confused. I have a Pride band for my Apple Watch and I had a coworker who asked me in hushed tones if I knew what it meant. :)

        1. Wednesday*

          I think you’re safe to give it a go! It’s kind of the same environment here. There were a couple older lesbians around, but neither of them were particularly butch. I was really self conscious the first couple days, but it’s been totally worth it. I feel so much more like myself!

          It’s one of those things where you have to decide if the benefits are worth the risks. If you bind at work, especially if you bind some days but not others, people are probably going to notice. Some people are probably going to think it’s weird and some people will judge you for it. You’ll have to decide if binding is worth those possibilities to you. Most people probably won’t say anything about your boobs. However, you might start hearing innuendos about your “professionalism.” I haven’t encountered this, but other butch, trans, and gender nonconforming friends have even in more liberal workplaces. The way to combat that is to maintain an impeccably professional appearance and take the power move of acting like the problem is all about your clothes (or hair or piercings etc). People making comments like that are cowards. Most aren’t going to want to admit their real problem is how uncomfortable they are with the size of your chest and will back off.

          Good luck!

          1. Gollum*

            as a cis-hetero someone who is overly endowed in the chest area, I can’t even imagine what type of undergarment takes you from a DD to a B or flatter that doesnt absolutely smoosh you painfully! (I’m jealous) Can someone post a link?

      2. General Ginger*

        Wednesday, what brand/style of binder do you use, if you don’t mind answering? I own a GC2B full tank which tends to be pretty highly recommended, and which several friends use to great success, but I find it doesn’t do much for me.

        1. Wednesday*

          Ah, the GC2B full tank is what I use and love unfortunately. :( Have you checked out Underworks or Shapeshifters? I can’t speak for them personally, but I’ve heard good things.

        2. cryptid*

          Chest tissue is pretty variable between people, and if yours tends toward dense you may not be able to bind effectively. I never could: the tissue wasn’t compressable. Only top surgery worked, but I’m also nb.

      3. General Ginger*

        Wednesday, do you mind sharing what style/brand of binder you use? I usually use a GC2B full tank, which tends to be highly recommended, and I have friends who use theirs to great success, but I’m very chesty, and find it doesn’t do much for me.

      4. KayEss*

        I’m having a hard time imagining someone crass enough to comment on a coworker’s bust size but subtle enough to do so in a way that didn’t leave them open to a much more serious HR complaint.

    5. Thlayli*

      If a coworker of mine did this my first assumption would be that she was wearing push ups or chicken fillets on “big” days rather than binding on “small” days. That’s if I noticed at all. And I would assume that was to look good in a particular item of clothing.

      2. LilySparrow*

        Yes, binding is so off my day-to-day radar, I’d assume that was natural and the fluffy days were “assisted.”

        And I would consider it none of my business.

      3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I have a number of different styles of bra that can make a surprisingly big difference in how big the girls look, even though none of them are push-up, “enhanced”, minimizing, or whatever. G to B is pretty dramatic but I doubt most people would really notice that much. They will be more amazed at how cool you look in your masculine suit. (I’m imagining a pin-stripe 3 piece zoot suit with a cool hat here).

        1. Very Anon for This*

          I’m not sure I can pull off a zoot suit but I wore a suit with a velvet bow tie to our office holiday party and got a lot of compliments!

    6. ..Kat..*

      Well, if you really are a G cup one day and a B cup another, that is a big difference. Some people might see you as a natural B cup who is inappropriately sexing up her look by using some amazing Victoria Secret bra on your G cup days! It would really be profession and office culture dependent.

      Is the binder at all comfortable?

      1. Betsy*

        I sort of wonder if people notice breasts that much, though. I’m quite feminine, but not someone who wears anything remotely cleavage-y, and on the rare occasions breast size has come up with close friends people have been shocked that I’m an F-cup. (That might also be because my back is small so I’m sure a 34F looks different to a 40F). I also wear a lot of black, which is quite minimising. I had just assumed people noticed I was walking around with larger than average breasts. But since those conversations, I think maybe if I reduced them to a B-cup people might think ‘oh, there’s something different about Betsy’ but I’m not sure if they could actually pinpoint the difference.

    7. Super Anon For This*

      I’m trying to figure out the same thing. I’m large chested and I think “gender fluid” is probably the most accurate textbook term for me. In an ideal world, I would come to work in a dress with a normal bra and feminine look one day, then bind and dress like a man the next day. And I’d tell people I’m a gender bender (or whatever seems easy to understand) and that’s just my personal style. I’m currently self-employed, working gig to gig, so I can do that. I don’t see the same people every day so no one notices.

      I think the most challenging part is that when you find a large chest, it can actually look larger or more, uh, sexually provocative. I hope that’s the right term . . . I mean that when I wear a binder without enough layers over it, I get some, “Woah! Large chest! Compressed! Hot and freaky!” sorts of looks from people, male and female, who seem to like large chests. The result turns out to be similar to showing cleavage.

      So I go the subtle layering route. Wearing a jacket of some kind helps. And I think that would be a good way to switch looks, so to speak. Dress in loose fitting clothing and add undershirt layers. I hope this helps!

      1. Very Anon for This*

        You’re right, when my chest is compressed it definitely…takes up more space? There’s sort of a collarbones-to-waist situation happening and I don’t think I would wear just a T-shirt and call it a day. That said, I’ve only been doing the 100% soft butch thing for the last six months or so and I’m not sure what that’s going to look like when the weather gets warmer. As of last summer I was still wearing a lot of dresses.

      2. Specialk9*

        This whole thread is making me wonder if I just don’t ever see people binding (which given my trans heavy social set seems improbable, but maybe?), or if y’all are very self conscious about something that doesn’t register at all for others. I’m thinking the latter, but open to the former.

  50. AeroEngineer*

    How early is too early to apply for new jobs? I am currently in my first job out of my masters degree, and while it is ok, it is 100% not what I want to do (nor where I want to do it). I decided in the last week, and plan on moving to a nearby country/city and would stay there for most likely the next years. The biggest hurdle will be finding a job, and I have already started looking (as I am restricting myself to only one city it makes it much easier to start gathering information)

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’m not sure what you mean by too early? The hiring timeline depends on the field. In Academics, I know we have a lot of wiggle room and a six month hiring timeline isn’t uncommon. In other fields, I think it can be. So, I’d work to sort that out.

    2. Naptime Enthusiast*

      Going just by your username and what I know about related industries, I’m going say that anything less than a year is going to be frowned upon. It takes 1-2 years new engineers in aerospace companies to get up to speed and be self-sufficient, so stays shorter than that are typically disappointing for everyone involved. Of course, if it’s not the right fit then staying longer isn’t going to fix that, but be prepared for some shocked reactions from coworkers and management.

      1. AeroEngineer*

        Yea, this is one reason I am planning to stay at least a year where I currently am (6 months to go), but while my current job is related to mechanical engineering, it is quite far removed from aerospace. Staying here will not actually help my chances much to enter into the field I want to, and the internal promotion possibilities take many years and are very few. The pay as well in this country is quite a bit lower than the equivalent positions in neighboring countries, and as I have quite some education debt, this also is a factor.

        People come and go quite often (4 are leaving or left this month), besides the core group who have been there for years and years I don’t think they will be completely surprised when I leave, as my background and interests differ quite a lot from my current position (and they hired me knowing this), it just happens that I ticked all the boxes in requirements.

        Getting a job in my field in the city I want to go to will take time, so it might end up being 1.5 years or 2 in the end…

        My question is more so of when applying for jobs which don’t have a listed start date, is there a standard expected time period to start? (like 2 months, 6 months etc…)

        1. Naptime Enthusiast*

          It’s highly dependent on the company, department, and even what project you are applying to. I would pay attention to the closing date on the posting. If the posting is open for a few months, then I would expect the interview process to be a similar timeframe, or that they are hiring for multiple positions and they all are pretty open ended. In my group, we hired someone in November and he started in January. I would say 4-6 weeks is a pretty understandable timeframe when there’s moving involved, especially international if you need to get visas or anything else.

    3. AeroEngineer*

      Oops. I think I misphrased something, reading this again. I am referring to job postings which don’t have a listed start date, is there a standard usual time which the start date can be within? Like 2 months, 6 months etc?

  51. Kat*

    I’ve been off work since Wed because of the ‘beast from the east’ making it impossible for me to get to work. I live 35 miles from work and drive usually, but the trains have been all cancelled too, so I had no options. This has never before happened in my 6 years working there. Usually our policy is to work back the time over 10 days. Clearly, with 3 days of work this isn’t possible. My manager has suggested I try to do this over 4–5 weeks instead, which means at least an hour of extra work a day. Some days won’t be possible because, well, I have a life and other commitments. I’d considered whether to take one or two of the ‘days off’ unpaid, even though this would be a hit to my pay cheque. I am reluctant to take leave because my holidays are very precious to me, especially later in the year when it becomes more stressful and pressured. What do you think? Take the extra work option or just be unpaid and have a much less anxiety-provoking schedule?

    I will probably just work the time… and I know the workplace can’t just give me the time off (although other places do), but the weather was totally out of my control. I’d much rather have been in work. I am getting cabin fever by this point and don’t even have the mental energy to read or get some writing done.

    2. CheeryO*

      I had the same option a few years ago when we got seven feet of snow and the office was closed for three days, and I took the days unpaid. I could swing it in my budget, and I couldn’t bear the thought of working extra hours at the time.

    4. Espeon*

      (UK snow-hit also) I’m taking it as unpaid leave – my time is more important to me than money. I won’t work more and they’re sure as hell not having my holiday off me! I don’t earn a lot, but enough.

      Hate that employers do this when it’s not our fault we couldn’t get in.

      1. Kat*

        I am thinking this too. I already find it hard to be at work. Extra hours every day will possibly have a bad effect on my mental wellbeing.

        I’m considering make up two days and take unpaid for one, or vice versa. Three is a big pay hit, but one or two could be possible. Luckily, no council tax is due this month!

    5. Specialk9*

      Can you ask your boss point-blank to be decent and comp everyone the time, the same way that any employer who isn’t a dick does in a natural emergency? (Perhaps don’t use that word – but come on employers, it’s a very low bar to decency. Don’t screw over your people when it’s an emergency.)

  52. Lou*

    I’ve got a small issue regarding my boss, who sits opposite me in an open office. We get along well and he’s generally quite an amenable, almost bumbling character but when he gets irritated at a work problem (once a week or so), he slams both his fists on the desk and raises his voice in a way that is always totally out of proportion to the issue.

    I know this is something I should tolerate but I left an abusive relationship last year and I’m very sensitive to displays of anger. To be honest, it upsets me, but I haven’t shown any outward signs of discomfort at these moments. The rest of our small team are women and none of us bang the desk like this. Can I quietly ask him to stop or is it not worth the risk of looking oversensitive? I think he’d be surprised that I’d bring it up, although I wouldn’t bring any personal context in.

    1. Quaggaquagga*

      You can absolutely ask him to stop! It’s disruptive and upsetting, and you shouldn’t have to tolerate it. I’d choose a time when he’s in a good mood (not right after he’s thrown a tantrum, which is what he’s doing). Maybe something like “Hey Fergus, yesterday you seemed upset about something. When you bang on your desk, it really startles me. I’m sure you don’t realize, but it’s quite a distraction. Would you mind toning it down a bit?”
      Good luck!

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      You’re not over-reacting. His behavior is wildly inappropriate. If you get any pushback whatsoever in asking him to stop, it’s an even bigger red flag.

    3. Reba*

      Just for another data point I do NOT think this is something you should tolerate! I would be so distressed by it. And I wonder where the idea comes from that “I know this is something I should tolerate”–has your boss or the company culture given you other indications that no one is supposed to complain about things like this / this behavior is normal? Think about whether you would feel safe talking to him about this.

      If you want to bring it up, I’d avoid mentioning your trauma and just say that it startles you and interrupts your work. You can phrase it like, cheerfully, “yes I’ve always had a strong startle reflex, it’s just one of those things!” (even if this is not true). Maybe he genuinely doesn’t realize how loud and disruptive it is.

      1. Lou*

        Thank you for your thoughts, everyone. That’s really reassuring to know that I’m not overreacting here and I’ll definitely follow the advice you suggested. I feel so much better now that I’ve put it out there.

        In regards to that sentence Reba, that may have been me being overly anxious and misphrasing it in the moment. I think what I meant to say was ‘I think’ or something less certain. That said, this particular company culture sees people being a lot blunter than I’ve ever worked in before (with mixed results!) and that also means that people have ‘thicker skins’ and can be a little dismissive. I guess I’m just worried that they’d see me as making a big deal of something. That said, if I spoke to him in the way you guys have suggested, it wouldn’t need to be a big thing at all.

        1. Reba*

          Yeah, it sounds like you do have a good sense of company culture and how to fit this issue into it in a productive way (hopefully!).

    4. Triple Anon*

      I would ask him to stop. He probably has no idea how it comes across. You could phrase it as a team thing, not about you personally. “Hey Bob, do you think you could quietly punch a Nerf toy or use one of those squeeze ball things when you get annoyed about something? We all understand where you’re coming from, but the desk thing can be distracting when we’re trying to get our work done.” Or, if he has this kind of sense of humor, just get him something that’s designed for those kinds of things. Like a stress relief squeezy thing. And just leave it on his desk. Or give it to him as a group. But only if he’s the kind of person who would think that was funny. I know, don’t give gifts to people above you. But do gag gifts count?

    5. Anono-me*

      I want to reasure you that you are not being overly sensitive by not liking the yelling and the banging on the desk.

      I have worked in many different work environments in the last 30+ years. What you described would not have been appropriate in any of them. This includes several blue collar environments with heavy machinery noise where all conversations took place at “holler” volume.

  53. DecorativeCacti*

    Good morning, everyone!

    How would you quantify experience when moving to a new field? I had a fantastic informational interview with someone in training and development last night and want to shift my focus onto instructional designer jobs. I’m currently in document control (10 years) with a ton of transferable skills and even some actual training experience.

    But now I’m trying to figure out salaries and I’m not sure how to count all of that. I feel like saying I have 10 years in training is obviously not true. My direct training experience starts on my resume about five years ago now. Can I say I have five years? There are a ton of overlapping skills and experience based on what my contact said last night.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Do you have any background in educational theory or educational analysis or developing online programs that are assessed based on these principles? Because from my experience, Instructional Design is a lot about developing and then assessing learning experiences. So, if I were to hire someone in this field, that’s what I would look for.

      Someone once told me to calculate “non-field” experience that relates on a 2 for 2 basis. I have no idea where they got that number, but basically they suggested that if you have 2 years of related experience, it would be like having one year of real experience. I’ve always thought this advice was dubious at best, but might help?

      1. DecorativeCacti*

        I have experience developing internal training materials (modules including checklist, quizzes, trainer handbooks, etc) as well as some of our SOPs.

        My workplace just kind of makes it up as they go along and they don’t want to give me the support to approach it in a more organized, well thought way. That’s why I’m looking to move on.

    2. krysb*

      BLS has data on wages for Training and Development Specialists and Managers. You’d have to look it up for your specific area, but they do have the data down to metro areas nationwide.

  54. Anon because identifiable*

    My father’s just accepted a job offer, his first private sector job (at 50+ years of age), going from academia to CEO.

    As an employee, what do you look for in your CEO? And if Allison’s around or anyone else has any ideas, are there any intensive courses/qualifications you’d recommend for a case like this?

  55. Anon here again*

    Any advice for dealing with older women in the work place who have been there a long time or just have stronger personalities?

    I’m in my job for about 7 months and I thought it would be getting a little better, but I still feel like the odd woman out. It’s a bit clique-y and I don’t know if people are just territorial or what, but it’s difficult because it’s divided into groups. The women are also very competitive.

    A couple of them are nice/polite towards me, but it’s more of an exchanging of pleasantries. A couple of them make snarky comments towards me (one of them greets me with, “Oh, you’re here.”), but there isn’t anything I can do or call them out on it without looking like an idiot. (I’m polite to them, but otherwise I try to avoid them.)

    Is there anything that can break the ice or make them accept me? (I’ve tried donuts.)

    1. Bridgette*

      The next time that person “greets” you by saying “Oh, you’re here”, I would say in a neutral tone “Yes. Why wouldn’t I be here?”, just to see what they say.

      1. Margery*

        Seconding Bridgette’s tactics. It shows that you’ve got a voice and are not going to put up with their shenanigans. Good luck.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I’d respond to the “Oh you’re here” with a smile and a confident, “Yes, I am!” or if you think you can say it and be funny, “And so are you!”
      Keep it light.
      Try to ignore half of it at least.
      Decide that you will probably be That New Person for at least five more months. Hopefully it will get better.

      Tell yourself at least they are put together enough to realize they should exchange pleasantries with you. I really hate it when people can’t even say “good morning”.

      Focus on doing a bang up job, give every day your best shot. Sometimes new hires can build credibility just by rocking the job.
      Also keep your eyes wide open, one of them may realize that you are experiencing some bs and that person may try to befriend you to help you.

      1. Britt*

        Question about the pleasantries – in your opinion, how do you feel about this in open office settings? In my pervious office – I would generally say ‘hello’ or ‘good morning’ if the situation felt right, ie – making eye contact, or it doesn’t seem like someone else is too busy at their desk. I also felt very strange saying ‘goodbye’ and the end of the day (it was acceptable to be wearing headphones) and my general feeling was that I didn’t want to disrupt anyone. Sometimes someone would make a general ‘have a good night’ announcement to everyone but I usually felt weird about that. I’m also fairly new to office work, so I’m genuinely wondering! I would hate to come across as being rude

        1. Not So NewReader*

          My go-to is copy what you see others doing. This could mean dragging your heals a little so you are not among the first few out the door at night so you can observe other people. It also might mean coming in a little early to watch what everyone does when they come in.

          For the time being perhaps a good compromise would be to say good night to the people immediately next to you. That might make sense because maybe you were just in conversation together or maybe you have random communication through out the day.

          Whatever you chose to do, don’t force it. Go with what makes sense in the moment. If three people are standing in the doorway when you leave, then say good night to them. Do the easy, logical part first then figure out what you want to do overall.

    3. Thlayli*

      The best way to get friendly with people it to ask them questions and listen to the answers. Once you establish a good relationship with enough of them individually the group snarkineas and distrust should disappear.
      Example:

      “So what did you do last weekend / up to anything this weekend?”
      “Going walking with my dogs”
      “Oh what kind of dogs do you have”

      Then the next time you see them ask about how the dogs are.

      most people love when you pay attention to them and their lives. And the what are you up to at the weekend question is perfect for letting them share as much or as little as they are comfortable with.

      1. Specialk9*

        I don’t know, a certain kind of Queen Bee sees that kind of interaction as acknowledging her superior position and accepting a role as minion.

    4. Betsy*

      I tend to do the opposite and be as bland and inoffensive as possible. It seems to work quite well for me. When I’ve worked with people like that they’ve tended to be quite insecure and someone coming in, especially at the same level, and if you seem young and not-jaded, is like a threat to them. The ones at my workplace, while not excluding me, will try to dampen any happiness and hopefulness I express, but then if you join in wth them and complain, they insinuate that you’re overly negative. I think it’s part of wanting to assert authority both ways: ‘you’re so young and new you don’t know what it’s really like working here’ and ‘you’re so young and new you haven’t seen the worst of it, so you have no right to complain’. I’ve even found innocuous comments such as nice food at the cafe get shut down with ‘I went there and it wasn’t’.

    5. Triple Anon*

      Well, you have two main options – avoid them or befriend them. I think there is something to be said for the former. While they’re being cold to you as an outsider, it might be less stressful than being involved in their cliques and everything that goes with them. Do you want to be part of their competitions? What if they contact you outside of work? What if they want to be friends? And get involved in your life? And get you involved in their lives? If you take that route, I would be prepared to have really firm boundaries.

      But, yeah, I have worked with older people who were cliquish and type cast me as an undesirable younger person. You can often cross that divide by acting mature and finding common ground.

      I would try to keep a safe distance from the cliques while being friendly. “Oh, you’re here.” “And so are you. How are you today? How are things going?” And if you get a snarky response, just leave them in peace. “Ok, I’ll let you get back to what you were doing.” But at least you’ll know that you were being the normal, friendly person and they’re the one creating the issues. They might come around in time if you keep being nice. Or they might not. Just focus on the work and when things are bad, keep in mind that you won’t be there forever; you can use it as a stepping stone to a better job. Maybe it’s just practice for dealing with difficult people and not taking things personally.

  56. Polaris*

    I generally enjoy my work, but I am pretty angry at them for not closing the office today despite the horrifying nor’easter going on outside, the fact that the streets around the office are flooding, and there’s an emergency warning for our area. I had to use PTO to call out because I didn’t feel safe, and another co-worker can’t leave until noon (for which she will also have to use PTO) despite aforementioned flooding and major power outages.

    1. Cookie Monster*

      Same here! A lot of our higher-ups are already out today at a Teapot conference, so it’s mostly junior staffers at work today having slogged here through the nor-easter.

    2. hermit crab*

      Yikes! I am at work today in the DC area, but the federal government and all the schools are closed due to the intense winds. I live so close to the office that it’s fine for me to come in, but our company’s policy is “we never close” so if you can’t make it in or work from home (e.g., if your power is out) you have to make up the time or take leave.

      I hope you & your coworkers stay safe!

      1. Reba*

        TIL that I don’t know where the light switches are in my office. They are not in predictable places! Most people didn’t come in; I totally missed the memo.

  57. Possible Remote Worker*

    I have been asked for my salary requirement for a job that is similar to the one I currently hold, but is remote. The company is based in San Francisco and I live in Atlanta. Do I base my research on the market on how much people make where I am based or where the company is based? With SF in the mix, it definitely makes a big difference.
    Also, I currently get a decent bonus. Should I express my requirements as my base pay or my total comp?
    Input is much appreciated!

    1. ToodieCat*

      I don’t know what to suggest for the SF/Atlanta mix, but if you’re considering a remote position you might also want to nail down details like who pays for what (office supplies, computer, internet and phone, etc.) and who pays for travel to the home office when it’s needed. At my company, some teleworkers get that covered and others don’t.

    2. rmj11*

      In my firm if you work remotely – even if your team is in another high cost of living area – your pay is set by the geographic area in which you reside. This company you are talking with will probably have a policy around this issue as well as bonuses.

      It might be helpful to ask the recruiter if they have a structured bonus program or any policies around pay scales and geographic area that you should be aware of? Good Luck!!!

      2. As Close As Breakfast*

        Also find out how that changes if you move. I feel like there was a letter in the not so distant past, where this came up. Like, if you move from your current location to a lower or higher cost of living area, how does the company handle that?

    3. anycat*

      i’d say it depends on their pay structure, honestly. when i worked for a company that was based in SF with an atlanta office, people in the sub offices were paid based on wages in that city. for example – SF was the highest paid, then ny/nj, etc. the people in our sioux falls office definitely weren’t getting paid sf wages – their cost of living is very different.

      hope this helps!

    4. ..Kat..*

      Since you would be working extremely remotely, I suggest you give them your salary expectations as well as your benefits expectations (10 weeks vacation; 6 weeks sick leave; $100,000 yearly employer contribution to retirement fund; $10,000 yearly allowance for foot rubs; etc). One lump sum could be confusing. Plus, how will health insurance be managed? I expect that an insurance company used in SF might not be available in your area, or have a vastly different number of providers. For example, you won’t be traveling to SF to use an approved health care provider for your annual physical. Good luck!

      1. Possible Remote Worker*

        That sounds perfect! I think I’ll copy and paste your suggestions. Haha
        Great point. I have been thinking about insurance, as we have historically used my job’s benefits for our family.
        Thanks for all the tips, everyone!!

  58. Daphne*

    Asking this again since I am frantic and didn’t really get an answer last week –

    I am in a small town, and the fairly new head of my division is very influential and well-networked here. She seems to have put out the word that other companies like ours should not hire any of “her” staff. I basically feel like I a serf now, tied forever to this company with no opportunities to grow my career or negotiate a higher salary (opportunities to move up in my company are basically non-existent). Is there anything I can do? Should I talk to HR about this, or approach her and ask her have mercy and release me from my indentured servitude?

    1. crying at work is fun!*

      That sucks :( I don’t know your situation but the thing is, you’re not a serf and you’re not in indentured servitude. If other places won’t hire you because of what your boss has said to them, I don’t know if that’s something you in particular can change. I might mention it to HR. But just remember, you can leave. I know saying to someone “well, you might have to move” is a bad thing to say, but, if you’re being sabotaged in your job search locally because of someone, and there’s no room for you in your current place, you might have to move or look for virtual positions that would let you work from home but for other people.

      I’m sorry you’re going through this :(

    2. Temperance*

      A few questions: do you know for a fact that she did this, or is it a rumor?

      I definitely do NOT recommend talking to HR, or asking her to for a release from “indentured servitude”. If she’s as well-connected as you say, she might tell her network.

      1. Daphne*

        All I know is that I applied for a job at a company where she was previously a high-ranking exec, my qualifications were absolutely a perfect match, and they held my resume in the active pool for three months and then sent me a form “ding” email – the position is still unfilled a month later. I should note that the ding email came the day after I told a colleague who had mentioned that she would be a reference for me that I had applied for the job – but as soon as I told her I was *actually* looking she kind of freaked out and started begging me not to go and said she would try to make my current position better, so I am pretty sure she immediately told our boss that I was trying to leave – and when I told this colleague about the ding, she pretty much told me outright that the other company was not going to hire me because of our boss. Right now they are supposedly “considering” ways to improve my current position, but I think they are just stalling – there are a variety of reasons, but I *really* want out of here! I can’t really respect people who would shut down a job search this way – it seems un-American.

        1. NaoNao*

          Well, all of those things aside, even if the well networked boss *is* saying “don’t hire my staff” who says they have to listen?
          Here’s what I would do:
          Pay for one month of “Premium” or whatever they call it, LinkedIn. Directly contact the hiring manager or HR person posting the “perfect” jobs, if possible, and see if you can avoid the “application” trap.
          There may be other reasons why you got the “ding” email, rather than your boss scaring people away. Even if your qualifications were a perfect match, they could be holding the post open until the VP’s son returns from his Grand Tour or whatever.
          Human beings see patterns and make up stories, it’s just part of who we are. But a lot of times, it’s just coincidence, not actual conspiracy!
          Also, would you consider jobs outside of this small town at a major hub, just “eating” the commute times? Or would you consider moving?

          It seems a bit extreme, but if it’s a very small town and she’s got a firm grip on the other 2 PR firms or Realtor’s offices or any other businesses run on the “who you know” model, well, you might be up ish creek!

        2. Not So NewReader*

          It’s a bluff, don’t get sucked in.

          The times I have seen this, each time it worked out to be total bs.

          I would be sorely tempted to tell Henny Penny that you are going to go talk to your boss to find out what the rest of the story is. In all likelihood, Henny Penny will back-pedal, “Oh, I did not really mean that she would block your hiring.”

          Remember companies are heavily invested in their own survival. However grand a person Boss is, no company would be willing to throw away its future just to placate Boss. I would take a very serious look at your cohort’s story here. She sounds like a drama queen.

        3. anonagain*

          Your colleague was the one who begged you not to leave? I think you should not use her as a reference or talk to her about your job search.

    3. Specialk9*

      You’re granting total power to someone who only has some power. You also only have one data point (one – one – job rejection) and gossip from an unreliable source, spinning you into this tizzy.

      So here’s the secret – applying to jobs is a numbers game, you can’t get too invested in the job that’s your perfect match, for so many reasons (they have 1,000 perfect matches, the quals on paper aren’t the real quals in the hiring manager’s head, etc etc). You need to apply to dozens, maybe dozens of dozens of jobs. You can’t look once and quit.

      Also, look at your true skills and consider other jobs that use them. Don’t just look for that exact job.

      And yes, if this boss does actually have a network and has managed to get away with illegal hiring practices that for Silicone Valley companies into so much trouble, then yes you need to move – move cities or move careers.

  59. Karen from Finance*

    I’m job searching and had a phone interview with a recruiter. It went well and she called me two days later to let me know the next step would be an in person interview with the team. I gave her my availability in the next week and she told me she or her colleague would email me with the interview date/time. That was Wednesday and I have yet to hear anything. Should I reach out today to follow-up/check-in? My availability was all early next week so I was hoping to hear something by now. It’s a possibility their offices are closed today due to inclement weather (as my office is closed).

    1. Britt*

      I don’t have advice….just that I sympathize because I am in a similar position, inclement weather and all – and want to follow for advice about the follow up! The waiting is so hard….like they aren’t just going to “ghost” me right!? I hope you hear back!

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Thank you! I just got an email with my interview details (guess I need to be a bit more patient lol); I hope you hear something soon! Good luck!

  60. Free Meerkats*

    Argh! Feeling behind the curve. Previous Superintendent (grandboss) stuck something we had been talking about maybe doing in a couple of years into the budget just before he left. I didn’t find out that it had made it through Council until this week. Our fiscal year=calendar year.

    It’s a Good Thing – moves our specialized software to a hosted solution and allows our field people to do more in the field – but we now have a pile o’ money and haven’t started the process it takes to spend it. So I’m having to dance for our departmental IT Liaison so he doesn’t have to dance too much for the IT Planning committee.

    It will all work out, just not a good time because of Other Stuff going on eating my time and spoons.

  61. No name for this*

    Ugh. Not sure if the American readers/commenters are aware of the row over the Cancer research UK billboard and how they said obesity causes cancer. At least two bloggers and activists have pushed back on social media and are receiving little support. Mostly there is trolling and hate directed at them. People are telling them to hit the gym and stop eating or that their feelings don’t override science. People are telling them to get back to the safe space or yelling triggered. One of the bloggers is anti-dieting because of the harm and when she called out the people telling her to go to the gym because she walked by the billboard in question she got hate for “being so fat that walking is an accomplishment”. People I work with (I’m in HR) think this is so funny and they have been laughing at the social media hate and coming up with quips of their own. So has others in other divisions as well as the board. It’s being openly e-mailed and shared. I’m the only person who works here that is overweight and no one gets why this a problem or will listen when I tell them. Ugh I wish the work day was over so I could go back to the peace and quiet of my flat.

    1. PM-NYC*

      Ugh, I’m so sorry you have to hear disgusting remarks like that. I can’t wait to live in a world where fat shaming no longer exists.

      For now, I wonder if pulling back from the conversations at work might help? I’ve been in situations at work where I tried to explain why a racist or sexist comment wasn’t ok, but sometimes it’s like talking to a brick wall. Better to put some headphones on, delete those emails & do what you need to do to take care of yourself.

    2. Michelle*

      Recently I have noticed when a company that advertise clothing for larger women, there is always handful of people who get preachy and say things like if you would lose weight, you wouldn’t have to worry about not fitting in to regular clothes. Also, the ones who say we shouldn’t make obesity normal or an accepted thing because it’s not healthy (or other preachy, not helpful things).

      Fat people know they are fat. They don’t need other people telling them they are fat. Trying to fat shame them into losing weight doesn’t work. Sometimes fat people have actual diagnosed medical conditions that make losing weight and maintaining a “normal” weight extremely difficult. Sometimes the medication you take for medical conditions can cause weight gain (such as the question about leggings earlier today).

      If you think making fun of fat people is acceptable, you suck. Get a life. If you agree with and join in with people making fun of fat people, you suck. Get a life. You if threaten or harass someone who is fat and doesn’t appreciate your comments, you suck. Get a life.

    3. lollyscrambler*

      Yes, all my friends are talking about this on social media and I had seen the billboards on bus stops and found them gross. Thanks, Cancer Research UK for providing No name for this’s workmates with an excuse to indulge in fat hatred! I hope you can get through it and when you get home maybe you can show support for the people who are bravely pushing back on it if that helps which reminds me I should too. Your colleagues are insensitive monsters.

    4. TheCupcakeCounter*

      This bugs me on so many levels because you never know what someone does or what is affecting their bodies. When I was 20 I was 5’9″ and about 150lbs. I workout on the daily, had a flat stomach, great muscle tone, and wore a size 4 pant. Without looking up from a file in HER hand, the scrawny nurse practitioner told me that I should look into an exercise program because I was overweight and borderline obese. When she did look at me I took off the paper gown, showing off my very nice shape and full C/small D boobs, and told her to go fuck herself and that I was reporting her. I did have warning as this had happened to 2 of my friends (we worked at the hospital’s fitness center together so had the same insurance) so was prepared. I put my little gown thing back on and went into the hallway and asked to speak to the actual Dr and told her what was said. NP was UNDERWEIGHT to the point of causing health issues where as everything on my panels was excellent to the point of perfection.
      Still is and I am close to 180lbs (and long gone is the flat stomach and size 4’s). I can kick ass and take names of a lot of healthy looking people even though now I actually am in the overweight category. I’ve seen overweight people beat skinny people in all sorts of activities and most of them are more committed to a healthy lifestyle because of their body type than the skinny people who look healthy. There are all sorts of medications, genetic situations, etc…that make a person overweight. That doesn’t mean they aren’t healthy.

      1. Michelle*

        Great example. I don’t understand why many people think women have to literally be stick figures in order to be considered healthy. My poor sister has such large breasts that if her insurance would approve a breast reduction, I bet the loss of that weight would put her in the “normal” category.

        1. Michelle*

          Oh no, of course not! I didn’t mean that at all. I just wonder what chart that nurse was looking at that made her believe TCC needed to lose weight.

    5. KylieHR*

      I am so sorry you’re having to deal with that. I have seen the advertisement and the hate that’s going around on Twitter about it. I am sorry that your co-workers are so terribly insensitive and just plain gross. Especially since they’re in HR.

      I hope your day gets better, and I want you to know that I totally understand why you’re upset. I’m also overweight, and pregnant, so it’s also hitting me pretty hard right now. This kind of crap is the stuff that leads to bad medical outcomes for overweight people who can’t get doctors to pay attention to anything but their weight. You’re not alone here, even if it feels like it at work.

      1. Ron McDon*

        You’re so right about doctors – I recently lost three stone, but before that, every.single.time I went to the docs they would relate my medical issue to my weight. I know that being overweight does cause health problems, and it can make some health problems worse, but it was all that was mentioned, every time.

        It made me stop going to my docs, even when I should.

        Fat people know they’re fat. They also know about the health risks associated with being fat. This sort of fat-shaming doesn’t help.

        1. A.N. O'Nyme*

          I’m lucky to have a doc who sees more than my weight. He once told me that yes, i could lose a few pounds, but other than that I’m healthier than a lot of “fit” people he sees.

      2. Lyme*

        “You should exercise and eat veggies. No no you don’t have Lyme, stop asking that. You know you’re obese, right?”
        -Way too many doctors, who all missed that it was totally Lyme.

    6. Ambivalent*

      Cancer Research UK is saying that 70% of millennials are or will be obese. That does seem like a legitimate health concern. But the hate is a totally different thing, and is completely unacceptable. I can’t think of any response that could do more damage to a campaign that is essentially trying to help people get healthier. Do you think there is anything that the medical community can do to raise awareness about the health risks of obesity, without causing fat-shaming and hate? I don’t agree with those that say that the health risks are well known and there’s no point repeating it. I have seen plenty of parents feed their children terribly unhealthy food daily, and I don’t think they would do it if they fully realized how dangerous it can be.

      1. TL -*

        Isn’t that 70% overweight or obese? (sorry; 70% obese is extraordinarily high – close to 3x higher than any other Western nation.)

        The obesity epidemic is really concerning and does have serious health implications, but it’s something to be dealt with by national strategies and making healthy lifestyle changes both easy and part of the culture (especially with children), not by targeted cruelty towards individuals.

      2. Triple Anon*

        So they’re playing into the “millennials” stereotype too. I get the point of educating people, but there has got to be a more productive way to do it. Make it about what people are eating or how much exercise they’re getting and avoid hot button words like “millennial” or “over-weight”.

        Why not just say, “To reduce your risk of cancer, eat five pieces of fruit or vegetables per day. Eat less saturated fat, refined sugar, etc.”? There is a reason. Entire industries are dependent on people eating too much of things that are unhealthy, and they can afford to hire lobbyists and prevent their industries from being publicly attacked. I wish people could understand the financial interests behind all of this.

        1. TL -*

          I mean…. the USA government has been saying that for years. As has, I presume, the UK government. It’s been less than effective.

    7. Earthwalker*

      This burns me. My first thought was that until the medical world can figure out why 95% of weight loss diets and exercise programs fail, there’s no point in reminding people about the hazards of overweight as if it were a simple problem to solve. If it were so easy to lose weight then doctors would not be overweight, and many are. And yet news programs, magazines,
      billboards, and total strangers seem to think it’s okay to be patronizing to the overweight as if they could possibly have missed noticing the whole social stigma of it. What the cancer research billboard said may be well meant and factually true, but it seems unhelpful and it provides yet another invitation for people to be pointlessly mean.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        This is kind of where I’m at. Yeah, I’m fat and I know there are health risks associated with that. But until someone can come up with a way to lose weight that actually works, is permanent, doesn’t cause mental and/or physical problems, doesn’t involve mutilating my internal organs*, or developing unhealthy disordered eating, I am going to just stay fat and try to be as healthy as possible. I am reasonably strong and healthy, and I don’t see why my size and the spectre of maybe someday developing cancer should mean that I spend my entire life terrified of cancer and self-loathing. The stigma of being fat is a large part of why I developed lifelong depression. Cancer Research is not endearing itself to me by jumping on the fat shaming bandwagon.

        (*Apologies to anyone who has had weight loss surgery. I know it works very well for some people but the whole concept freaks me out and I am not going to ever consider it for myself).

      2. KylieHR*

        The biggest issue is that the way they presented it is not even true. Obesity does not CAUSE cancer. Obesity CORRELATES to higher rates of cancer without taking into consideration the causes of obesity that can also contribute to higher rates of cancer. Fat people tend with higher rates of poverty which affects living conditions, food availability, food affordability, and other issues such as doctors disregarding what fat people say about their bodies and just diagnosing weight loss instead of testing. There is no weight loss solution in the world that cures cancer.

        Also, if being fat causes cancer, then I should have died 20 years ago.

        1. Willow Sunstar*

          My mother passed away from breast cancer when I was in high school. She was tall and thin.

    8. ..Kat..*

      I suggest you check out the Dances with Fat blog. Also, email the blogger about this. She will probably have good advice for you.

    9. A.N. O'Nyme*

      I once knew a woman who was overweight and occassionally receiving mean comments about it. She then put a picture of a seemingly overweight man on her desk. When receiving a snide comment if that was het fat bf she showed a video.
      It was a picture of Hossein Rezazadeh, and a video of him lifting 263kg (more than 500 pounds) over his head.
      That person never bothered her again.

  62. Trouble in the library*

    I might be making a mountain out of a molehill, but I am not sure what to do! I work in a support role (library technician) at an elementary school and lately I feel so unappreciated, but not by the students… but by the staff. I don’t even know how to verbalize how unappreciated I feel, but I find myself so angry and irritated at work sometimes. I’m tempted to talk to the principal or assistant principal about how I feel, but I don’t want to sound like a whiny baby. I just can’t take it anymore. I’m not a slave to the teachers, I don’t see why it’s okay for them to waste my time and treat me like I’m a lesser being. I don’t know if it’s even WORTH talking to either the assistant principal or principal about this, because obviously they’re teachers… so how could they possibly understand the situation from my non-teacher perspective?

    Like, for example, while I sympathize with new teachers… some of them need to learn how to control their classes when they are visiting me. I sympathize with them, but their salary is 3X more than mine and they actually have, you know, SPECIALIZED EDUCATION regarding how to teach and control their students. I don’t see why this task has to fall on me because some of these new teachers are plain incompetent (I don’t mean to be harsh, but it’s true!!!). Other teachers don’t come on time, or don’t bother to let me know they will miss their library time, so I end up wasting my time getting ready for them to come in… when they don’t actually come in. Okay, I didn’t mean to rant so much about that! I just want to bring these up somehow to the principal/assistant principal, but if they’re teachers and understand THAT perspective… how could they possibly understand why I am bothered by the behaviour of other teachers? I should probably just grin and bear it, I’m also working on a professional masters degree now, so I should be out of here in a year and a half. I just don’t know what to do to make their behaviour more tolerable.

    1. Forking Great Username*

      As a newbie teacher (even one who just wrote a comment about how to not beat myself up so much about it when I make mistakes), I absolutely feel like you should talk to either the principal or individual teachers about this! Have you tried just saying something to the teachers when this occurs? For example, “Could you please let me know in the future if you are going to be missing your library time? I’m often juggling many tasks, so I don’t want to waste time setting up for your class if they’re not going to be here.” I would be very apologetic and work to correct the issue immediately. Of course, I’m sure that’s not the case for all teachers – but that doesn’t mean it would be out of place for you to say something!

      1. Yorick*

        Talking to them should help about canceling the classes. They may not realize how much set-up you have to do.

        I would talk to the principal or assistant principal about the behavior of students in the library (focusing on that, not the teachers). They may have tips for you, or they may send a reminder to teachers that they need to monitor the kids’ behavior.

    2. Parenthetically*

      I don’t understand why you think your principal (or teachers in general) would be unsympathetic simply because they aren’t librarians or because they have a teacher’s perspective? I’m a teacher and I understand your irritation perfectly well.

      I feel like the library is the domain of the librarian, and I wouldn’t want to step on your toes by enforcing my rules when you might believe it was your job to enforce your rules. It’s possible that every single one of your colleagues is using library time as responsibility-free babysitting, but even so, having a more generous mindset toward them might help as you approach your boss.

      I think it would be absolutely fine to sit down with your principal/assistant principal and say, “Hey, I’d like to get clear on whose responsibility discipline/class management are when classes are in the library. It seems there’s some confusion about whose role that is and sometimes the classes get pretty out of control while they’re there. If it’s my role, could you talk more about what I can do if a child is being particularly disruptive? I don’t want to seem to be undermining the teachers’ authority, but I need to have more order during library time so we can get more accomplished.”

      And I think you can address the teachers not showing up for their appointments as well — maybe with them first, pre-emptively. When they make the appointment, can you send a confirmation email, saying something like, “Thanks for making an appointment to talk about using library resources with your 3rd grade class, Mrs. Holzapple! I’ll be prepared with resources pulled and the reference area set up for your arrival at 12:40 on Tuesday. If your schedule changes and you can’t make it, please let me know ASAP.”? That gives you room to follow up if they no-show, and to discuss it with your boss if it continues to be a pattern. Something like, “I want to make the best use of my time, and at least twice a week/almost daily/however often, a teacher who has booked a time to come in with her class doesn’t show up, which means the time I’ve spent setting up and preparing a lesson/project/whatever could have been spent on something else, and it also means the time slot they booked can’t be used for another class that might have wanted it. How can we address this? I’m happy to be flexible where I can, but I’m sure you can see that a pattern like this is going to create some frustrating situations for me and other teacher and classes, and isn’t the best use of our resources!”

      1. Trouble in the library*

        Well, I assume the principal/assistant principal would automatically have more sympathy for the teachers in these situations because they once were teachers. Of course they remember what it’s like to be a new teacher, but they don’t know what it’s like to be support staff. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t think they’d care that much about my perspective.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          But the only chance they will have to understand your perspective is if you actually give them your perspective.

          I assume the principal/assistant principal would automatically have more sympathy for the teachers in these situations because they once were teachers.

          This is not true across the board. I hope you’re saying this because you know the principal and assistant principal at your school and happen to know this to be true about these two individuals. This is not a generalization that applies to all administrators who used to be teachers.

        2. Reba*

          I think the conversation doesn’t need to be about perspective, sympathy, and feelings. You can talk to the higher-ups about how things like lateness and unpreparedness are impacting your work — things like taking time away from other tasks, not reaching goals for library use, or whatever.

          It sounds like this is really demoralizing for you. It’s possible that the teachers are careless snobs, of course, but it’s also possible that it isn’t personal. Good luck!

        3. Parenthetically*

          I absolutely agree with both of the above comments — particularly that this doesn’t have to be about sympathy or feelings, but about the facts. That’s what you lay out to administration.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      So in your first paragraph I thought you were saying you feel unappreciated, but in the second paragraph it really just sounds as if you’re dealing with a few highly unprofessional or overly stressed teachers.

      they actually have, you know, SPECIALIZED EDUCATION regarding how to teach and control their students..

      I’m not saying that teachers should leave classroom management up to librarians, but do you know they actually have received that specialized education? I got my master’s degree in education (teaching specifically), and I got zero explicit instruction about classroom management. I had to pick it up on my own.

      Other teachers don’t come on time, or don’t bother to let me know they will miss their library time,

      What they’re doing to you is horrible. Do you know that it’s intentional? Either way, it has to stop, but there are basically two ways to explain this (and they’re not mutually exclusive):

      1. They’re just inconsiderate jerks who want to waste your time.

      2. They’re extremely overwhelmed and barely keeping their heads above water so can’t get it together to let you know.

      Either way, I think you are perfectly justified in talking to your principal. It isn’t your responsibility to figure out why your co-workers are acting unprofessional, just to let management know that they are acting unprofessional and that is directly affecting you. Before you do that, I would talk directly with these teachers, too. They may not care about what you have to say (or maybe they will), but you should at least make the effort to say this is bothering you, if you haven’t already.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I was going to say, of the teachers I know NONE got any training in how to control a classroom or how to present material in a certain manner and a few other things. I used to have lengthy discussions on this.

      2. tamarack and fireweed*

        There’s a third possibility and that is that they may not be aware that there is much of an issue.

        This looks to me like a case where the best course of action is to take a step back internally, and be extremely professional about it: what two or three things are most disruptive and how would you expect, or suggest, they should be handled? That could be teachers not giving you notice for changed plans and student behavior management while in the library. And then take them to the right person, in a focussed and controlled manner. Stick to those 2-3 things that you want to address this first time and don’t expect to change the whole culture of how the librarian (or in general, support staff) are treated in one go. Because you’re right, they could be jerks! Or they could be overwhelmed and frazzled. So any change will come in small steps. If you burst into the principal’s office and let out all your frustration, however justified, you’ll just become yet another problem to manage. So offer them a solution, but be firm about making clear that you as a valued employee can expect them to address what you bring up.

        You could start with an individual teacher – keep it friendly and collegial, just request a moment for a discussion out off earshot of everyone else (don’t dress them down in public or do anything that could be perceived as such!) and bring up a specific instance: “I understand that plans change, but when you reserve the library like last week for your 4th grade struggling readers group, I adapt my work plan for the day and set up for your class. When you then don’t show up, and I wait around, it scrambles up my task list. When this happens, could you please [send me a quick email … whatever the right way to notifiy you is]? I’d really appreciate it.” This is not just to establish you with the teachers as someone whose rules and work constraints they know (and learn to respect), but also to give you practice. Then go to whoever is in charge of solving systemic issues. For example the principal or VP. Do the same, but with your small list of issues. Don’t make it an individual issue (if it isn’t), as in pinning it on particular teachers if it’s more of a widespread issue. And you can say something like “This has been bothering for a while, and I’ve started to address it with some individual teachers. But I think it would be really helpful if you could remind all of the teaching staff to [stick to the list of library rules / do X, Y and Z…]. Because when this happens again and again, it doesn’t look like the library and its staff are respected. I also can’t help thinking it sets a bad example for the students.” Or whatever.

        (You say you’re a library assistant. Isn’t there a head librarian that oversees this? They should be looped in! At the minimum, they could provide some guidance how to manage this. If there’s a suitable list of how to deal with the library, they might even be in a position to send a stern reminder to the teachers or even school leadership on their own. But even if you’re all alone here, or, worse, have no support from the librarian above you, you can start working on addressing these things.)

    4. Annie Moose*

      Can I offer a little commiseration? My mom works as a paraprofessional/aide in a special ed classroom, and half the teachers won’t even say hi to her or other parapros in the hallway. It’s like the parapros don’t exist. Thankfully, the teachers she works most closely with are great, but it’s just absurd to me. Just because someone doesn’t have a teaching degree doesn’t mean they aren’t a valuable part of education!

      Anyway. Hopefully you can at least get people to give you a heads up if they aren’t going to make their time and such–that’s definitely a clear issue that can’t be dismissed as interpersonal problems.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Anecdotally on the other side, the paras at my (veteran teacher) mother’s school are highly valued and the positions have very low turnover because everyone treats them with the respect they deserve. They’re vital to the teachers being able to do their jobs!

    5. Thursday Next*

      You should definitely report this to the administration. Perhaps there needs to be a clear policy about cancellations? Or even a posted schedule on the door—a bit of public pressure to make their appointments?

      I’m sorry some of the teachers have been disrespectful of you. I taught in higher ed and scheduled mandatory library sessions for my students. I—and therefore they—took these sessions Very Seriously.

    6. Julianne*

      On the issue of teachers not showing up for scheduled library time: I think you should talk to the teachers first about this, but I guess if you’re really uncomfortable bringing it up, you could address it with whatever administrator most closely oversees your work. As a teacher, I’d really rather hear it from you, though.

      On the issue of management: The assumption that teachers have specialized training in behavior management may or may not be accurate; I had no classroom management training during my teacher prep program, but I can’t presume to speak for all teachers. It’s not clear to me from your post whether the teacher is present during library time or not. If the teacher is not present, then I do think it’s your responsibility to improve your management in the library, which is effectively your classroom. (Think of it this way: I can teach my class the rules and expectations in school, and can react to compliance and non-compliance when I am present and in charge, but ultimately I lack the power to control student actions when I’m not there. Even the best teachers have students who test boundaries when conditions change.) But this is also something you could talk to teachers about. You could develop rules for the library and ask teachers to review these with students ahead of library visits, ask teachers for strategies they use with their classes (especially for challenging students), or even collaborate with other specialist teacher students (ex. art or music teachers) to create common rules for these special learning spaces.

      If the teacher is present during library time, discuss with them who is responsible for responding to misbehavior in that space. At my last school, teachers were present during library and the librarian established the expectation that she was responsible for the lesson and asked that teachers be prepared to respond to significant or persistent misbehavior.

      1. Betsy*

        I think they’re very rude to not tell you when they need to change their plans. They should realise that it can take a long time to prep a class, and that goes for you too, if you’re designing something for their class.

        However, as someone who teaches at a university, I can be reluctant to intervene too much if a librarian is coming in to do a workshop with my class. I’m always conscious of not wanting to overstep and take over. So they might feel like it’s not their place. When students give presentations, I have to try very hard to stop myself from jumping into help manage if they’ve set a short discussion or activity for other students to complete.

    7. LibLady*

      I am credentialed librarian ( teacher with an additional credential as a librarian) and many of the teachers don’t know I am credentialed, and therefore on their “level”. Some treat me in a similar manner as TITL described. If a teacher misses their scheduled time without notice, I definitely let them know about it. Additionally, I let the teacher handle discipline until it gets to the point I need to step in. It is my classroom, after all, and if they won’t regulate the noise or mess, then I will.

    8. Traveling Teacher*

      As far as not disciplining the kids while they’re with you in the library, if they’re really young, maybe they’re thinking, “Thank God, I don’t have to deal with these kids for the next XYminutes!” It’s not fair to you, of course, but maybe there’s a middle ground of just being plain burned out!

      As my moniker suggests, I’ve taught in a lot lot lot of different classrooms over the years, and while the best teachers were the ones who disciplined their classes if there were looming behavior problems while I was teaching (as it was in their classroom, they knew the kids best, yadda yadda), often the teachers who didn’t were having behavior problems for a large percent of the day in their classes and either had stopped really noticing it or viewed the 30mins-1hour I had the children as their mental health break (and in a few classrooms, after awhile I couldn’t really blame them!)

      Would it be possible for you to institute more of a pattern/routine for the more problematic classes? (You are probably already doing something like this, of course, but just a suggestion. For me, routines were one of my top strategies for behavior management. Little kids get so stressed when they don’t know what’s going to happen next and just act out in such strange ways to express that!) If they know that they’ll always have a certain routine, they might be somewhat easier to handle.

      Also, I’d bring it up with the teachers on a one-on-one basis; sometimes, it’s really easy to think that they’re doing something purposely when the truth is that they just have never really given it much thought. I had to have a “talk” with two teachers, for example, about constantly scheduling half-day field trips on their lesson days with me, plus not informing me, so I’d trek across town to get to their school, only to find that I didn’t have to waste 45 mins on a bus! Plus, the kids weren’t learning enough for their exams at the end of the year with all the missed classes. On their part, it was genuinely unintentional; they hadn’t realized what they were doing, and they reformed somewhat.

    9. ..Kat..*

      I think you should not go to the principal or vice-principal first. As a library technician, I assume that there is a librarian you report to. I suggest you talk with the librarian first about how to handle this.

      1. Former Librarian*

        As a former librarian I’m surprised you as a paraprofessional are teaching library classes. Usually that is for librarians with master degrees. I second talking first with the teachers before the principal. So many teachers are doing everything they can to not drown they don’t realize they are being inconsiderate. Also if you have any specially problem students ask that particular teacher what works for them or the other elective teachers.

  63. jenniferthebillionth*

    Work anxiety update: My therapist and I have agreed that with some advance notice (usually four hours), I can call her for a 15 minute chat at lunch or immediately after work and ask for suggestions in managing my anxiety in the moment, when I can’t close my eyes and be in a quiet room with no distractions. It’s already helping.

    1. jenniferthebillionth*

      It also helps that my company now gives us free premium access to the Calm app. But that’s more for when I’m at home and have some quiet time! I’m on day 4 of the 7 Days of Calm now.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Apps are such a lifesaver for managing mental health, for so many people. I’m at a point where I no longer use them, but I used to religiously use mood-tracking apps for handling my stress/depression. It’s funny how such a small thing can help so much.

    2. Goya de la Mancha*

      I’m a big fan of Pacifica :) I used to have the premium version and it was worth the fee as I was not handling my anxiety well. Now that it’s a generally under control, I just use the freebie version.

      1. jenniferthebillionth*

        late-reply – I have just downloaded Pacifica. I may not get the premium version as I have premium Calm, but the diary sections are super useful! Thanks

  64. Blue Anne*

    I posted last week that I was interviewing for my “dream job” at a local craft brewing that was growing exponentially.

    Well, I didn’t get it, but they were extremely complimentary in rejecting me. The owner called me personally to tell me it was a very tough choice and he would love to see my application in the future when they had more openings. So that’s good.

    Instead, I’ve taken an offer at a small manufacturing company up the street from me. I’ll be getting out of public accounting, making a little more money for a lot fewer hours, learning about social media marketing and probably replacing their financial controller when he retires next year. They know that I run a bunch of rental properties –
    they like that I’m someone who works with my hands – and they’re not concerned about that night business. And they’re happy for me to dye my hair pink, and they don’t mind if I start in mid-April so I can work out the rest of tax season. No burned bridges at my current employer.

    I’ve worked hard, but I feel really lucky that I’m in a position where my second choice is still so great. It’s definitely a result of reading this blog for years. (A decade?) Thanks Alison!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Wow, this has been a while in coming for you, Blue Anne, this is so great. Congratulations! I wish you many happy years in your new place!

      1. Blue Anne*

        Thank you so much! The rentals have been taking off so well that I’m cautiously optimistic about this actually being my last job. Hopefully I’ll like it enough to stay for years and years. :)

  65. Forking Great Username*

    Anyone here who has (or used to have) the tendency to beat themself up about it when they make a mistake at work? I’m trying to figure out how to stop doing this, and so far it’s not as simple as just reminding myself that it’s unproductive and that I need to stop.

    I’m a student teacher, so this is probably harder for me because I’m constantly getting feedback on everything I do, and of course it’s my cooperating teacher’s job to help me improve, so it’s importabt they point out where I can do better. But I’m finding myself dwelling on the corrections, and I know it’s just causing my unnecessary and unproductive stress and anxiety. How do you curb these thoughts?

    1. AnonToday*

      I think this is something that just gets better with time. As long as you are learning from your mistakes and they aren’t super egregious, you should be fine. Especially with teaching which is a tough time. You are a student teacher for a reason, you are there to learn and mistakes are part of that learning process. Try to focus on learning from your mistakes instead of negative feelings about them.

    2. caledonia*

      Definitely me. It has helped me to have a safe space, like writing it all down at home and then folding it up/ripping it up and when my mind drifts back to re-hashing it firming telling myself “no. I’ve gone over this already” I still definitely over think and worry but I can sometimes successfully put it to one side. My manager also helps because she as very straight to the point and says that nobody died, did they?

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Is this the cooperating teacher who’d interrupt you in the middle of your lesson to give you feedback?

      In any case, I was a student teacher once and making mistakes all the time and beating myself up about them. But you just have to constantly remind yourself that teaching is hard and that you’re new, and it takes a while to get good. I know maybe three teachers (out of thousands I’ve met or worked with) who have been good at teaching instantly. Most people take at least 3-5 years to be any semblance of good.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Instead of making negative marching orders (“I need to STOP”) why not say positive affirmations? “Yep. I made a mistake, so I will just clean it up.” Then quickly start the clean up before you have time to beat yourself up.

      Later you can autopsy, like a scientist. “How will I prevent that particular mistake from happening again?” Go all Dr. Spock, practical or analytical. Trace the problem back to where the derailment started, put a guard in at that point so you don’t make the same mistake again. “When I see X, I will use that for a memory trigger that I also must do Y and Z.”

      Honestly, telling myself not to beat me up, never worked for me. It’s when I started thinking through what went wrong and how to prevent it that my tired mind stopped beating on me so much.

    5. Reba*

      Notice that telling yourself not to beat up on yourself is just adding another layer of negative-framed thoughts….

      What will you do (positive) instead?

      Similar to Caledonia’s writing and tearing up, I sometimes do a visualization where I hold the thing in my hands and then gently lower it into a river or lake or ocean. Cheesy, perhaps, but it does actually work for me in letting it go.

      1. Forking Great Username*

        Somehow I had never noticed this – the another layer of negativity. Wow. You are so completely right!

    6. ..Kat..*

      I have had problems with this. My solution was two fold.
      1). I would answer three questions. What did I do wrong? What should I do instead? What could I have done to anticipate this problem happening? Then I would forgive myself and move on.

      2) I would imagine that a respected coworker at my same job had made this mistake. What would I say to them? What would I suggest? Would I counsel them to be kind to themselves? (This is based on the fact that I am always harder on myself than others.). Well, I should treat myself as kindly as I would treat these coworkers.

    7. Triple Anon*

      I’ve found it helpful to connect with others in the same field. Anything you can do to hear about other people’s successes and mistakes, whether it’s reading blogs or books or getting together with people in person. Whatever works. Then when something goes wrong, you know other people have gone through similar things and that it could have been worse!

  66. The New Wanderer*

    I’ve seen the advice a lot lately to contact the hiring manager via social media when applying for a job, because connections get you seen a lot more often than cold-applying thru an online application.

    But I’ve also seen advice not to appear to be jumping the queue by going to the hiring manager rather than letting the application speak for itself.

    Soooo, what’s the best strategy here? If contacting, then what should the message say?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If you don’t know the hiring manager or have a contact who does and who will connect you, this will annoy 98% of hiring managers. They want you to use the system they put in place.

    2. Jen RO*

      If you were on the “to interview” pile, it would raise some serious red flags. I would probably still interview you, but my coworker, for example, would write you off.
      If you were on the “maybe” pile, you would move to the “no” pile.

      So yeah, don’t.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you should ask yourself if you’d like to work at a company for which this is true. If they genuinely let total strangers “jump the queue” by contacting the hiring manager via social media instead of via the online application, that’s a severely dysfunctional place.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Thanks! My instincts were to not even to connect to hiring managers on Linkedin solely because I applied to their job posting, much less message them so I haven’t. It’s just hard to keep seeing that advice along with “statistics” about only 5% or 20% or some low number (it’s always different and never cites a real source) of direct applications actually resulting in a job.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I applied for a job through LinkedIn and it suggested that I connect with the job poster, so I did, sending a note that said I was applying for X position and was very interested in the company and hoped to speak with her soon.

        She told me during my initial phone interview that she’d already flagged my application, but my connection confirmed her decision. I ended up as one of the finalists but ultimately didn’t get the position.

  67. L.*

    How do you get over the immense guilt that comes with leaving an organization that is run like a dumpster fire… by really nice people who you really like?

    I’ve been job hunting for a few weeks and have landed an interview already. My place of work is not ideal for a number of reasons – poor staffing choices, extremely high turnover, and a fundraising team that has underperformed for years against their budget, leading to serious program cuts. (I work in programs.) Just problem after problem, crisis after crisis, and no end in sight – not even a real plan to improve anything. But although people can be annoying, I don’t think anyone is toxic, I’ve had really great opportunities here, and I do really believe in the work we do. So job hunting has me feeling like a traitor, even though I know that these problems are loading my desk with work that is not related to my job (because we don’t have enough people), even though I’m at a point in my career where I really need to be pushing myself technically.

    Just. I know I can’t set myself on fire to keep anyone else warm. But is there a way to feel less like I’m abandoning a ship full of nice people!?

    1. Argh!*

      When you leave you’ll be one more data point added to the pile of evidence that the organization needs to change its ways. If you have the opportunity, use the exit interview to discuss those things.

      1. L.*

        This is so true. And honestly – I’m at the tail end of a series of resignations that should have already sent this message. We’ve lost something like six senior managers in the last few years (some were replacing others) and my own boss (who was amazing, and whose loss made me really reconsider my future here) quit a while ago. If the message isn’t through, it’s not going to get through, and I cannot keep working in this unnecessary chaos all the time.

        1. Argh!*

          One department where I work has had 100% turnover in the past year. All the new people are from outside the organization — no internal candidates. I wonder how long they will be here.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve been there. Believe me—every toxic workplace has extremely nice people in it. That’s usually how it stays alive. The people who are largely responsible for making it toxic are the ones taking advantage of the extremely nice people who feel guilty about leaving.

      Just leave.

      And encourage your extremely nice people former co-workers to leave, too.

      1. L.*

        This is so, so, so true. Part of my problem with the management is the constant enabling, and I want to take myself out of that system of having to validate bad ideas. Or saying “I think this is a bad idea” and being ignored until it blows up, at which point my right-ness is a cold comfort.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I’m saying that you should take yourself out of that system and encourage your extremely nice people former co-workers to do the same. If you don’t want them to be treated badly, encourage them to leave, too.

          Unfortunately, your pleas may go unheeded, especially if your extremely nice people former co-workers have martyr complexes.

          1. L.*

            To some extent, many of them who wanted to leave are already gone – the ones who remain are enabling a lot, which is frustrating, but ultimately there isn’t anything else I can do at this point.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Those nice people have not done anything to stop the dumpster fire. Think about it.

      OTH, these are all individuals with the autonomy to go find another job. So they can go find another job, just like you did.

      “Guilt” is not a good glue to use to hold a company together. It’s not a long term plan. If people are staying there because they feel guilty leaving each other then this is a messed up culture. It’s also a recipe for many problems. You need to leave before you forget what normal companies look like.

    4. Buu*

      If any of them asked you if they should take a job you’d tell them too. Resist the urge to flip your table and storm out and attempt a proper handover.

    5. Betsy*

      Commiserations! I am leaving a department that’s a bit of a dumpster fire. I feel really guilty because the students might suffer.

      But, they’ll hire a new professor and most professors I know are quite good at their jobs and might be better than me, so they might get a better educational experience.

      The turnover here is very high too, and I hope it will make someone notice, but the supervisors seem to have a way of rationalising this.

      I really think you can’t sacrifice yourself and your career development and happiness to stay in a role where you’re overloaded and have no room to grow. Even if you didn’t have strong reasons- like if you wanted to leave because the office walls were green and you hate the colour, or if you want a job that will let you move to Tahiti and work remotely, or you want to focus on developing your creepy realistic doll-making side business- then that should be OK. You need to make the right decisions for your life.

      I feel bad about leaving some of my nice colleagues behind too, but they have good reasons for wanting to stay there, like it’s their wives’ hometown, or they just want a simple job until retirement. They could leave if they wanted to too, and I think some people are just a bit more oblivious to dysfunction. Some people might just deal with things by doing the minimum and not putting in extra effort. That doesn’t fit quite so well with my personality, so it’s probably better for me to work somewhere where I can do a good job, be supported to do a good job, and be recognised for it.

    6. Fish Microwaver*

      My org is a bit of a dumpster fire too. We have lost quire a few people in recent years and nobody is happy. I feel a mass exodus is imminent. I am not actively looking because I have some personal issues I need to resolve so starting a new job would not be ideal, but if the right opportunity arose I would go for it.

  68. crying at work is fun!*

    Bizarre question, but… has anyone had any luck switching supervisors? I got a new supervisor two quarters ago and it’s been horrible. From talking to people with other supervisors, these issues are localized to my supervisor. We’re pretty redundant organization (a lot of people doing the exact same thing), so the supervisory groups are very arbitrary. The supervisor stuff has gotten so bad, I’m looking to leave my job over this issue. But if I could switch supervisors, the situation could change; I might still leave because of other issues, but I won’t be as urgent as I am right now.

    The thing is, I have limited experience in places with a lot of supervisors, and in my last position, yes, if someone had gone to the director and made a case for changing supervisors, it probably would have been fine. But I don’t have enough visibility of the higher levels here to know if it would work or if it would be weird.

    Would someone asking for a different supervisor be a weird thing for y’all? I don’t even know how I’d go about it, and I’m so conflict-averse I think I’d be more willing to be unemployed than do it, but… but things are getting really bad with this supervisor. Think “if I were in a union, I’d go to the union about it” kind of bad, with a side of “I’m documenting everything he says to me”.

    I’ve been here more than half a decade. I’d rather the thing I left because wasn’t *this*.

    1. AnonToday*

      Unfortunately, it really depends on the organization. Some places would be fine with it, others would not.

      Do you know if anyone has done it before? That would be a good sign. In my org people do it and it is accepted but it is clear the old supervisor will be a bit upset by it.

      1. crying at work is fun!*

        Unfortunately, getting the new supervisor was part of a giant merger, so I don’t know much at all about the history and about the new folks in charge, and the people who were above me pre-merger have all been sidelined.

    2. Naptime Enthusiast*

      For my department it’s very tough to change managers without moving to a different project, and that depends on whether there are any openings available. If it’s extremely busy and a team is short-staffed it might be easier, but normally your manager has to agree to the move or be told by higher-ups.

      If your higher management and HR are unhelpful with respect to your issues with your supervisor, can you phrase it as you’ve been working on the same thing for 5 years and want to get a wider breadth of experience?

      1. crying at work is fun!*

        We actually project-hop a lot, and our supervisors have nothing to do with project teams. Supervisors control which projects we get to a certain extent (enough that I’m worried about sabotage from him), but I’m not on any projects with any of the other people who are supervised by this guy. There’s nothing to tie me to this group other than that’s how I was randomly assigned when they drew it up post-merger.

        I’ve also been told, by the supervisor, that my existing wider breadth of experience doesn’t matter. That was a great conversation :(

  69. EmC in Higher Ed*

    I’ve been working at a job for nearly 6 months now, and I hate it. The role isn’t as described, there isn’t enough work to keep me busy, my boss seems disorganized, and to top it all off there is a poor cultural fit with my coworkers. It is a very lonely and unwelcoming office environment where no one talks or has lunch with each other, which is a hard adjustment for me from former more social offices. Needless to say I’m actively job searching.

    My grand boss scheduled a lunch check-in with me next week. She interviewed me, and it would be the first time I’ve been able to talk to her one-on-one since I started my role. Is there any benefit in raising my concerns about the poor fit of the position and office culture?

    Usually, I would just keep my thoughts to myself until I’m ready to leave, but my grand boss is also fairly new as the department head, and has been open in expressing that she’d like to change the office culture. She was very involved in my hiring process, and I’m worried may take it personally if I leave so soon.

    1. Havarti*

      I think it’s worth talking to her about the role not being as described and the lack of work and see what she says. I wouldn’t mention the lonely environment though. Grandboss has a big job in front of her if she’s looking to change the culture so that’s not likely something that would change quickly anyway. But perhaps she can help make the rest of your stay while you look for another job more tolerable work-wise? If she reacts poorly, then you’ll know for sure you need to get out sooner rather than later.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yeah, you don’t actually want to work for someone who’s going to demand that people have lunch together.

        1. EmC in Higher Ed*

          You know what? That’s totally true. I guess there is nothing that can be done there. Now I know what to look for in future jobs.

  70. Nervous Accountant*

    Good thing bad thing idk. It’s been INSANELY BUSY this week. Good in the sense that it’s work stress, and that’s something i’m used to. I think about my dad less and less when I’m busy with work and my pain and bronchitis is gone.

    So the bad–

    A few weeks ago, a client wrote a complaint on google. Boss sent me, team and my mgr an email blasting us for letting this happen, saying that we didn’t communicate with the client.

    I simply forwarded her the chain of allllll the emails between myself, client, my coworker, etc. We had all responded to his requests and emails asap, there were multiple phone calls that are documented–all in all we did our fornicating under the king jobs.

    Once I sent her the proof, she just said thank you. My manager had stepped in to explain but she said he was making excuses. (I dont’ get how saying we actually DID do our jobs is an excuse?).

    I hate that our team is constantly crapped on by her. Shes always blasting us for how low our #s are.

    In total we have like 2000+ tax returns that need to be completed so far (not counting new ones coming in soon). We’re also required to respond to all of our clients in 24 hours. There are phone reports that track how many calls go unanswered. We have an online portal where clients can send text msgs and we have to answer ALL of them. We get multiple emails a day encouraging us to work on our tax returns and messages. My manager doesn’t like sending these emails but has to.

    Tax season has always been rough, but this feels like the roughest one yet with all the reports and tracking–a lot of ppl are saying we’re being micromanaged. I never got that vibe before, but I can see why they’re saying that now.

    I work 10-13 hours a day. My team is here long hours every day. My manager is here before me and stays later than me including on weekends. Yet every single day we both feel like we’ve not accomplished anything. Every time I sit down to do a return, the new guys next to me have questions, an email pops up, or I have to take a phone call from an angry client who wants to complain that our website is slow or some other stuff I have literally 0 control over, or help out my manager with something..The last thing I really don’t mind doing but the rest are frustrating. And when I DO get a few quiet minutes, I can’t focus.

    Is any of this normal at other places?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Tax season seems to cause a special kind of craziness.
      But I don’t think your boss is normal for thinking you guys can control what is posted online by other people. I think you boss is bizarre on that point.

    2. MissCPA*

      We get a color coded time report emailed to us every week. Red = not enough charge hours, green = good, orange = too many charge hours. To be green, you have to work 70 hour weeks because there’s no way to be chargeable for a full 12 hour shift when you’re training the interns/new hires. I don’t have to answer client questions on tight turnaround, but to me a lot of this stuff seems “normal” for public accounting. I can’t wait to get out to be honest, I am not made for overtime.

  71. I'll come up with a clever name later.*

    So my husband interviewed for a job this morning and it went well (YAY!), but the job itself is one that is a bit weird. The job involves the handling and transporting of deceased animals back and forth from a pet crematorium. It’s a bit weird and he actually wondered aloud this morning “if I got this job, can you imagine how people will react when I tell them what I do for a living?”
    So it made me wonder…..does anyone else out there have a job that is one that makes other people’s eyebrows raise when they hear what you do?

    1. Argh!*

      A computer training company recently had a contest rewarding the person with the worst job with free tuition. The winner cleaned out garbage trucks every day.

    2. Natalie*

      My husband used to install and repair grinder pumps for septic systems. They grind up what you would expect. He was certified to do confined space work in septic tanks as well.

      This is the job he had when we met.

    3. HR preggers*

      I think he just needs to come up with some clever/tactful way answering when ppl ask “what do you do for a living?” Or simply say “I’m a driver.” Some people get weirded out by anything dead. But I don’t see any shame in this job. He’s doing something that needs to be done.

      1. Betsy*

        I think he should say he works in Pet Mortuary Logistics. I just like the way that sounds.

    4. Wigged Out*

      My GBF told me about a job opening for an administrative assistant at a company that manufactures and sells “wig tape” for wigs, toupees and hairpieces, to keep them attached to heads. My friend is bald and was afraid they’d want him to wear a hairpiece himself, so he didn’t apply.

    5. Death Becomes Her*

      Handled a lot of assorted cremains, they use them in many handblown glass items that serve as memorials.

      He’s a hearse driver essentially.

    6. Arjay*

      Yeah, he can be a “courier” if he doesn’t want to get into specifics.

      I have relatives who manufacture caskets for a living. At least they have job security.

    7. Hobgoblin*

      I’m a cop. You can imagine the reactions I get… I just tell people I work for the county (which is true). If they ask what I do, I just say “paperwork” and ask them about their job/shoes/feelings about dogs wearing sweaters. It works. I love my job but I don’t love the negative, repetitive conversations about it and I suspect he’ll find the same thing.

    8. NoTurnover*

      My job is difficult to explain, and the simple question “what do you do?” plus normal/innocent follow up questions often leads to a half-hour conversation about educational philosophy. Sometimes I’m good with this–I want people to know about the work our school is doing. Sometimes I’m not up for it and try to answer in the most boring way possible: “I’m an administrator at a private school” or similar. I imagine your husband might take a similar tack–sometimes telling people the whole story and sometimes just saying “driver.”

  72. Jen RO*

    I have a new joiner (finallllllly) joining the team in about a month and this time I want to do it better! I am going to create a 30/60/90 plan for her and hopefully share it with the other managers in my group.

    So, technical writers: what would you expect a new joiner (without any prior TW experience) to know after 30/60/90 days? Right now I have two people on my team and they had very different learning curves (one of them was ahead and one is still behind), so I don’t know if my expectations are correctly calibrated…

    1. Jen RO*

      I’ve written down a couple of things, here goes. (This is the abridged version, without any specifics, of course. Note: release notes are a big deal in my company and they take up at least half our time. The product is also very complicated, so it can take years – literally – to be able to write truly high quality documentation.)

      30:
      Meet & greet – meet coworkers, understand the departments we work with
      Admin training – internal HR & IT processes (how to request time off, how to log tickets)
      TW training – introduction to our tools and standards, release processes
      Simple tasks – release notes and simple doc bugs

      60:
      Product-specific training – watch tutorials about existing features
      Doc – more difficult release notes; apply internal writing standards (formatting, syntax etc); mistakes from a product functionality POV are ok.

      90:
      Doc – document small features, document even more release notes, learn how to publish the client-facing documentation

  73. Sara*

    I have an interview on Monday! Its for an HR job at a school district and I’m excited about the possibility. But I’ve always worked in very corporate offices, is there anything ‘school’ related I should know or ask going in? I’m already aware of the difference in retirement plans, but I didn’t know if there’s anything else obvious I’m not thinking of.

    1. HR preggers*

      Public sector HR is so different than corporate in some ways. Review their strategic plan things of that nature. Public sector is much more black and white when it comes to policies because they are under scrutiny from the public. Maybe talk about cost savings, since every single penny has to be accounted for in public sector. It’s been a while since I was public sector and I can’t think of anything off the top of my head right now to help prepare you. Good luck!

  74. Starley*

    I have a weird situation with my boss, and I’ve love some suggestions for navigating it. She started about a year ago, and overall I’m happy reporting to her. My problem is that she seems uncomfortable acknowledging the fact that she’s my boss. I have brought up a few times that I would like her to give me more constructive criticism. She gives me none at all and doesn’t take my evaluations seriously. Her response to my requests for feedback is that she doesn’t see our relationship that way, my work is fine (it is), and she thinks of me as an equal and a friend, not a subordinate. I’m glad she respects me, and it’s nice that she likes me, though that’s certainly not a requirement for me in a boss. She oversees three departments, and mine is the smallest and most independent. I don’t know if it’s because it’s easy to ignore us, or if she feels uncomfortable about managing me because of the gap between us in age and experience, but beyond occasionally running interference with other departments and advocating for me when necessary, she doesn’t do much managing. Does anyone know if or how I can bring this up again, or does it sound like a lost cause?

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s worth bringing it up again and asking in a way that might make it likelier to get the feedback you want. “I’m looking to grow in this field, so I’m really keen to find ways to improve. Since you’re the closest observer of my work, could you give me two or three suggestions for areas I could raise my game in or go deeper on?”

      If she balks at that, I think she’s a lost cause, and I’m side-eyeing her “Oh, I don’t feel like our relationship is like that” big time. It doesn’t have to feel like a managerial relationship to be one, and she has responsibilities here.

      1. Starley*

        I may or may not have been screaming internally while she was saying that about our relationship. I think this is the first time she’s managed a senior level individual contributor. She actually doesn’t even review my work, no one does – I was really hoping that would change when she came on board! I think you’re right and I need to be much more explicit, so maybe I’ll ask her to look at my next project and to tell me if she would have done it the same way. Perhaps asking more casually and not during a meeting where it seems more formal will help her feel more comfortable with it.

    2. Cherie*

      This isn’t very specific, but I wonder if there’s a way to address the specific issues in a way that doesn’t challenge her strange ideas. Maybe there is a way you can ask for feedback that sounds like how you might as a co-worker for advice or something?

      1. Starley*

        I think you and fposte are right, I need to change how I’m going about asking. I know I have blind spots to my own weaknesses, so there are going to be things I just don’t know to ask about. For technical stuff, though, I can definitely break it down and be more casual about it, which will give me something concrete to start working on.

    3. Flinty*

      I’ve found that sometimes you have to ask more specific questions with people like that AND once I became a manager, I also realized that thinking of concrete critical feedback can actually be difficult if the person is already performing well. So maybe try along the lines of:
      “Was there anything you would have handled differently about Project X?”
      “I’m not sure I made the right call on Y, what do you think?”
      “I’m looking to improve Z skill, and I’m trying to focus more on doing ABC to start with. Do you have any other suggestions?”

      1. Triple Anon*

        That’s exactly what I was going to say. Make a list of things you would like from her as a manager and ask for those things.

  75. SelfStirTeapots*

    I have a phone interview today with a pretty prestigious company – and of course I have nerves combined with a cold! Trying to chug as much tea and honey as I can so that I don’t sound like a toad on the phone!

    1. crying at work is fun!*

      Good luck! If it helps at all, it’s “sick season”, so if you’re a little croak-y, they’ll probably understand. (And if they don’t, that might give you useful information about how they perceive illness.)

  76. Long time lurker*

    *TW abuse*

    So one of my coworkers was joking the other day about how many hangers he broke beating his kids. And I’m just… At a loss for what to do in a situation like this. I just smiled and nodded at the time, I’m sad to say. But is there anything else I could have done?

    Normally when people at work make jokes or have conversations that I’m not comfortable with, I just smile and don’t comment. Part of it is my extreme aversion to conflict, but I’m also not sure how else I can tackle it while maintaining civil professional relationships. Is there a different way I can approach this? Would it be vary depending on whether I’m dealing with a coworker or my boss?

    1. fposte*

      Do you know what you want to have happened in that moment? That’s a place to start.

      I’m presuming that you don’t believe he actually hits his kids, with or without hangers; if you do, calling CPS is the first course of action. If you don’t believe that but you just don’t want to hear that joke, I think you can politely make that point: “I know you don’t mean it, but I get really uncomfortable with jokes about hurting kids. Could you skip those with me? I’d appreciate it.” You don’t have to teach him the error of his ways or anything; just ask him not to.

      1. Lyme*

        I have never ever ever ever heard anyone joke about beating their kids, much less with such specificity. I think he is beating his kids, and was likely raised to think that’s normal behavior that everyone does. Seriously, please call CPS.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      just smiled and nodded at the time, I’m sad to say. But is there anything else I could have done?

      I think another way to approach this kind of situation in the future is to say “Wow!” and then absolutely nothing else afterwards. Or to ask “What?!” and then absolutely nothing else afterwards. Or “Uh, that’s messed up.”

      But if you genuinely believe he may be beating his kids, you should report him to CPS, for sure.

    3. ggg*

      Ugh, god, there is a guy I used to interact with occasionally who would always bring this up. Like “my kids don’t behave unless I really beat them into shape.” And he was also a really Jekyll and Hyde personality, who would be totally reasonable one day and screaming about minor mistakes the next.

      I never said anything and eventually we didn’t need to work together anymore. But sometimes I wish I had said something.

    4. Havarti*

      I’d be tempted to stare at him with a horrified expression. “You beat your children with hangers?! Why on earth would you do that?!” And when he inevitably says it’s a joke: “But why would you joke about beating your children? That’s an awful thing to say!” But that depends on not really knowing the guy. If you work often together, a frown with “Dude, that’s not cool. Don’t say stuff like that. That’s not funny.” is probably best. Repeat if he insists it was a joke. “Jokes are supposed to be funny. Beating your kids isn’t funny. Seriously, don’t talk like that.” and then change the subject before the whole afternoon is lost to “But it was just a joke!!!1111”

      Once when I was at a car dealership, the guy was talking about his awesome relationship with his awesome manager who pulled a knife on him once as a joke. I didn’t really give a rat’s behind if his manager wanted to shank him or not but geez you don’t tell a potential buyer that! So I went full DEFCON 1 with the pearl clutching. Opened my eyes real big, let my jaw go slack. “He did WHAT?! Is that even SAFE?! How could you work with someone who did THAT to you?!” Watching the man frantically backpedal was almost hilarious.

      1. Havarti*

        Also even if it’s your boss, I still think bad behavior should be called out. Maybe privately after the fact if you judge it best. If they get mad, do you really want that person to be your boss?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Another idea you could use is to say, “Coworker, I think I know you well enough to realize you are probably joking. However, CYA, if someone overhears you and they do not understand that is a joke you could have your life descend in to all new levels of hell that you never, ever anticipated. I read articles all the time of parents who got reported on false charges and their lives were never the same. Take care of yourself, dude.”

    6. Thlayli*

      Do you think there’s any chance he was serious? If so report him ASAP.

      If you don’t think he’s serious I’d just forget about this instance and plan something to say if anyone jokes about this again. I usually say “I know you’re only joking but I don’t think child abuse is an appropriate topic for jokes.”

    7. Ann O.*

      Oh, the freeze response to shockingly inappropriate “jokes” or statements. This is my personal struggle, too.

      I love Captain Awkward’s “return the awkward to sender” philosophy, and it’s what I’m trying to do. IMHO, it takes a lot of practice to get past the freeze/shock to actually implement, though, so if you have friends or a romantic partner who can role play with you, practice. I’ve found that Anonymous Educator’s recommendation of a simple “wow,” or “that’s messed up” is most effective. What you’re trying to do is give negative reinforcement instead of positive reinforcement to shift the norms over the long term. You can’t expect to have the perfect response or completely change someone’s mind/heart in a single encounter.

      Also, agree that if you think the co-worker may genuinely be beating his kids, you should contact CPS.

    8. Someone else*

      Call the police. I’d be very concerned he were not joking and it shouldn’t have to be your responsibility to figure it out. I’ve been the kid where the adult made obvious comments about what they were doing that everyone brushed off as not to be taken literally. Please call the cops.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      This sounds like one of those really strange and weird Southern sayings, like
      “Ain’t no point in beatin’ a dead horse…’course, can’t hurt none either.”

    10. LilySparrow*

      Full-on, slack jawed astonishment is a perfectly appropriate response.
      Make sure you have his home address handy when you call CPS – they’ll ask you for it.

      People who brag about violence may not be speaking the literal truth, but they aren’t joking, either.

    11. ..Kat..*

      I think you should call child protective services (1-800-4ACHILD to get the local reporting number). In my opinion, anyone who thinks this is funny could be doing this to their children. It isn’t funny! What you do is call CPS and say that your coworker says he has beaten his children so hard that he has broken hangers.

      I wish that my parents had been reported for saying things like this. Maybe I would have fewer scars – both mental and physical.

  77. AnonToday*

    I need to vent a bit/ask advice.

    I agreed to a temporary work project last year (technically a promotion from my old job). I only agreed to six months. I knew pretty early on this a bad fit and declined to apply for the actual job a couple months ago. I should clarify that I would be paid more if I took the actual job, but am not being paid more for the work project (due to OT availability, I am actually being paid less, I am exempt but my org offers OT, but not in my temp role, so I am working uncompensated OT).

    But now that my work project should be up, it just isn’t. I made clear I wanted to go back to my old job and my old manager (who knows I want to come back( advocates to get me back, but their line is that they are having trouble filling my temp job and need me to stay. I agreed to an additional month but now it just keeps getting pushed further. They tell me one thing and my manager another and then I got yelled at for sharing what I knew with my manager because “those plans haven’t been finalized yet”.

    I hate this job and I just want my old job back. I loved my old job but I worry I have ruined it by not going along with senior management’s desires to keep me in my role. I was good at my old job which is why they went after me to move up, but this role is just a different skill set and I hate it. I should clarify I was well rated in my temp position but I am miserable and headed to a burnout. I had handled aspects of this job before but wasn’t prepared for just how much more I would be working or the cliquey politics of it.

    Anyone have experience with this? I try to be helpful to the organization but I would rather leave and go elsewhere than stay in this role.

    1. Marcy Marketer*

      What if you went to your supervisor and said “this position is not a a good fit for me, and as a consequence I am facing burnout and will need to develop a plan to transition out of the role. I can remain in this role for one more month, but then I will need to move on.”

      You can then job hunt and get another job lined up. Ideally they would offer you your old position back, but if they don’t, it’s better to have another one lined up. Then, they face either losing you from both roles or losing you from just the one role. That allows you to take control of the timeline instead of constantly relying on them to set the pace for when you can go back to your previous role.

      1. AnonToday*

        Returning to my old job shouldn’t be controversial, people do work projects all the time and my agreement said I would return to my base job after six months. The last three people to have my role, one left the org but two returned to their old jobs. They are facing a management shortage right now (someone else just elected to be demoted from the full job, they let her do it). I could go to the union, I am technically still a member (though in abeyance as temporary supervisor). I was assured I could always return to my old job if I didn’t.fit when I was recruited for the project, that is part of why I am so upset.

        1. AnonToday*

          (The irony being it would have been easier for me to go back to old job if I had been bad at this temp job. but because they are happy with me, they are resisting letting me go.)

          1. ..Kat..*

            Start being bad at this temporary job. Tell the powers that be that you want to transition back to your old job. And buff up your resume and start looking for another job so that you can see what kind of options you have.

  78. AnonAndOn*

    Weekly unemployment thread – How is it going for those of you looking to get back into the workforce?

    My updates: My phone interview earlier this week went well. I start a part-time temp job today that’ll be a few weeks long (knock on wood). Progress!

    1. Grace*

      Congrats! I’m also unemployed and looking. Had a few phone screens this week and last, but now waiting to hear if I’ll get in-persons. I have an issue with bad or lack of references that I posted below. Hoping some people can chime in with advice!

    2. Anonawife*

      My husband is having an awful time. He did have an interview this week for a temp gig but learned today that they chose a different candidate. It’s been almost 3 months and he has met with several recruiters and temp agencies and had a few phone screens but only 2 in person interviews. He’s getting pretty depressed.

      1. AnonAndOn*

        I’m sorry to hear about what your husband’s going through. I hope things get better for him.

      1. AnonAndOn*

        I am sorry to hear that. I truly hope that you find something, Elizabeth. I’m rooting for you…many people here are rooting for you.

  79. catsaway*

    I commented about a month ago about asking for re-location money for a post-doc position. Based on advice here, I asked and got some relocation money added, no issues! I’ll be able to get up to $X covered in moving expenses, where $X is definitely more than a moving pod. (And, as I understand, it’s reimbursement so its not taxable)

  80. Melody Pond*

    tl;dr – given the length of my tenure at my company so far, is it too soon to talk to my supervisor about my career interests in other departments at my company?

    I’ve been working for a regional health insurance company for about 8.5 months, doing billing & eligibility work. I’m probably a little overqualified – I had a failed attempt at public accounting (a terrible idea for me, as it turns out), I have a four year degree and then some, was studying for the CPA at one point. I landed in this job because I really needed to build my confidence back up, after feeling so out-of-my-depth in public accounting.

    To make a long story short, I’ve had just enough exposure to data analysis and data science, that I’m pretty sure THAT’s the career I want. I dabbled in it at a very low level at my first real office job, and one of my best friends from that job is an excellent data analyst, and so I have a decent window into the work.

    There’s decent opportunity for data analyst jobs at my current company – data analysis is pretty big in healthcare. But it would mean moving to another department. I’m more and more sure every day that that’s what I want, and every day I find myself feeling more and more “done” with the limitations of my current job.

    Our annual reviews happen in March. Even though I haven’t been here for a full year yet, my “annual” review will take place this month along with everyone else in my department.

    My question: should I talk to my supervisor now about my long-term career interests? Is it too soon?

    I’m pretty sure I’ll want to have moved on from this role, by the end of this year. My relationship with my supervisor is… okay, but I’m never completely at-ease talking to him about anything other than technical aspects of the work I’m doing now.

    What would you do, if you were me? Thanks in advance!

    1. analytica*

      It might be too soon, esp if you have an old school manager to have this talk with someone so recently hired. If you did initiate the conversation, you could frame it like you’d like to take on more technical projects in the department and you want to grow your skills in that direction. That is less threatening to a manager than “I want to be out of this by the end of the year”.

      Then do your research, really. Find out when people can move internally and whether a boss can block it or not. Being a data analyst is a whole huge slew of skills that you probably have a good chance to put your head down and work on those for a good long while anyways. If you work on yourself, you’ll have a better chance to move both internally and externally.

    2. Borgette*

      9 months feels too soon to say “I want to move to a different department” but not too soon to say “I’m interested in learning/doing more projects like [example here]”. If possible, express interest in projects that involve the other department or tools that the analysts at your organization use. Work on polishing your analytics related skills, build your reputation as an Excel [or other analytical skill!] guru, and try to figure out what roles would be a good fit in the future. Then, in December/November ask about transferring.

    3. Melody Pond*

      Thanks, to both of you. We do have a standard rule that you can apply for other internal roles after being in your existing role for 6 months, which of course I’ve already exceeded.

      And also – I would be totally happy staying in my current role for longer if there was ANY opportunity to grow my skills in this direction, from where I’m at. The main skill set I’m lacking is the ability to write queries, like in SQL. I’m already really good at Excel and using it to automate and analyze data wherever possible. But in my current role I’ve been met with a lot of resistance from both my supervisor and team lead, towards making improvements with Excel. And I’ve asked – there’s no way I’d ever be able to get even “Select” permissions to be able to practice writing SQL queries. That’s just Not A Thing.

      So, this is why I’m feeling the urge to move on sooner than later. Otherwise I’d be happier staying where I’m at for longer. But, even though that’s the case, you both might be right that it’s still too soon to openly mention to my supervisor that I’d like to move that direction.

  81. NGL*

    OMG, just a little rant of the audaciousness of our temp. Brought her on just under three weeks ago to help cover my woefully understaffed department. It was obvious pretty early on that she wasn’t the right person for a long term placement, but for doing really basic work (mailing, data entry) she at least lifted a little bit of the load off of my shoulders.

    One her third day she called in sick. She definitely didn’t impress my manager with that move, but I do know that shit happens, and I don’t want a sick person around ultimately, so I was okay with that.

    Then yesterday she just…didn’t show up. I e-mailed her at noon asking if she was okay, and two hours later she responded that she was taking a mental health day. Again, I empathize, but there’s a way to go about taking a day off, and just not showing up isn’t it. So her temp contract was terminated immediately.

    Then I find out chatting with someone else today that this isn’t even the first time she just skipped out! I was out on Monday and apparently she didn’t come in that day either!

    I’m just totally flabbergasted here that anyone would think this was okay. It’s not even like she was fresh out of school! Entry-level employee, but with a bit of office experience behind her.

    1. Starley*

      I see you hired my former employee! Day one, no problems. Day two she was over an hour late without calling first, saying her other job kept her up late because she had to close. She was off work at 8 p.m. so I’m not sure how that really made her late to her job with us 12 hours later, but I guess that’s not my business. We talked about it and I stressed how important punctuality was in this role (it involved front desk coverage) and that being more than five minutes late without communicating it wasn’t acceptable. The third day, I had her scheduled to train with another employee because I was out. The fourth day I’m back in the office, and by noon she hasn’t turned up. The person she was supposed train with then shared with me that she hadn’t shown up or called the previous day, and they had assumed she’d quit. I called her and she said she overslept (by four hours!!) but would be in shortly. 3 p.m. rolls around, no sign of her, so I assumed she was ghosting us. Nope. She came in around 4:00 (we closed at 4:30!), clocked in and started working like nothing happened. It… it didn’t work out.

        1. Starley*

          She was a legend. I know entry level employees often have a lot to learn, but she years of experience in food service and retail, where strolling in whenever you feel like it is one of the fastest ways to get fired.

      2. Buu*

        Check with the agency did she sign in on the Monday she skipped out, if so she’s defrauding your company and you should get a refund.

        1. Havarti*

          Ok. As an FYI, you probably shouldn’t be contacting the temp directly. In the future, contact the temp agency and tell them your temp is a no-show at whatever is supposed to be their start time. This creates a log with the agency if the temp becomes problematic. And it also makes the agency do all the work of tracking the temp down and listening to whatever the latest excuse is. If a temp can’t make it in, they’re supposed to notify the agency and the agency notifies you. Or at least that’s how it worked when we had temps a decade ago at my old office. If the rules have changed or you were contacting the agency, then please disregard. :)

          1. AnonAndOn*

            You’re correct. Those types of communications are supposed to go through the temp agency. If the temp’s not working out, she can be terminated from the assignment and replaced with another temp.

            1. AnonAndOn*

              And I missed where NGL said that the temp was terminated from the assignment…my mistake!

              1. Havarti*

                But if they weren’t contacting the temp agency, this whole mess might have been dragged out longer than needed. The agency would have likely offered to find them someone else before the mental health day had rolled along.

    3. HR preggers*

      This is the normal I’m finding. And if one more person blames millennial’s I’m going to smack them! I’m seeing this behavior from every generation. Its so frustrating.

    4. MassMatt*

      There are lots of people like this unfortunately, especially in entry-level jobs. For some it’s drug or gambling problems, for others is’t just being inconsiderate or just never growing up learning basic things like show up for work. Or they don’t really need the job (it’s their 2nd gig, or they have other income) so they don’t treat it seriously. I managed retail many years ago and had to fire someone like this, over the years I’ve seen him working in lots of stores and restaurants, never for long. Some people just go through their life bouncing around between short term jobs. I suppose the “crime” brings about its own punishment, such people don’t escape dead-end jobs.

  82. Anon for this one*

    One of my coworkers seems to be gone. Security searched his car and office (late, when almost no one was around), and I haven’t seen him since. He’s currently not listed in our public directory, although I never had a reason to look him up before so maybe he was already unlisted for some reason.

    At what point, if any, does it become appropriate to ask about this? I don’t want to pry (okay, I do, but I’m trying not to) but it also seems very weird that he should just vanish without a trace.

    1. BC Enviro Gal*

      If you have a good manager, you can totally approach them on this. Something non-intrusive like “Hey, I haven’t seen Fergus in a while. Is everything OK? Are you able to share any information?”

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        The “Are you able to share any information?” is key to not coming across as prying – you recognize that the answer could be “I can’t tell you”. If it’s been a few days, can you ask at your next staff meeting or 1-on-1 meeting with your manager?

        1. Anon for this one*

          It’s been like two weeks!

          Also, in case this is relevant, we work for the government and he may have (had?) a security clearance.

        2. President Porpoise*

          And… it may not be what you think it is. Management at my job shared zero news with anyone about a coworker’s disappearance. He was just gone. However, I knew through outside avenues of communication that he had been the perpetrator of a murder/suicide. I sincerely hope that’s not what happened here.

    2. Lynca*

      Your manager should be able to tell you a yes/no if they’re no longer with the company. Prying would be trying to find out under what circumstances they left. Which they might not be able to tell you.

  83. Grace*

    Hi everyone! I’m fairly new to AAM but I’m in the throes of a job search now and I know I’ll run into a snag when it comes to references. In the past I had a few managers give me good references however, one manager has gone M.I.A. I was laid off from that company and he always agreed to give references but now he’s nowhere to be found and I think he might’ve even passed away?

    I left my current job due to a toxic work environment and a strained relationship w/my boss, who had previously given me good performance reviews. Yesterday I asked her if she would ever give me a reference should I need one down the line and she flat out said no.

    Aside from these 2 previous managers I have another that would be willing to provide a reference but she managed me over 10 years ago. I’m really at a loss now. Without strong manager references I’m afraid I won’t be able to get work. I have good peer references and “dotted line” references from some places but I know hiring managers and HR always aim for references from past managers.

    Anyone here have experience from a similar situation and if so, how did you overcome this? In the meantime I am going to comb through the archives here. Thanks in advance!

    1. Lyme*

      Put together the list you have, and look at other ways you can establish your work reliability (volunteer, etc). Look at other temporary work you can do now to get reliable references.

  84. a girl has no name*

    I have a phone interview this afternoon for a marketing/PR position with a financial/tech startup. The interview is with the president of the company, and I am so nervous! I think it’s because I have many of the skills they are looking for, but I don’t have much experience in the financial/tech sector. Any advice about calming my nervous would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

  85. atisketatasket*

    Good morning, all!

    I’m nearly four years into my first office job, and I’ve consistently taken on new responsibilities/morphed within the role on request from management. Coming in, I made some definite mistakes on a professional level, partially due to being new to an office environment. One of these was not being responsive enough via email – I was given this feedback just over two years ago and have improved significantly since then.

    I may be up for promotion soon, and I’ve just learned that one of my managers is expressing concern for promoting me due to one particular instance of email non-response that occurred during my first year on the job. I’m a little flabbergasted – a) they were not the person that gave me the feedback/a person that has ever given me feedback, I hadn’t even realized there was a concern; and b) it was nearly three years ago! I know I’ve improved a lot, but honestly, it’s making me question if I can stay at this company and expect to continue to grow. I’m not sure why, but it was a huge hit to me when I was feeling really good about all of the work I’ve done over the last couple of years….do I talk myself out of it? Is it reasonable to think I could stay if mistakes clearly stay so fresh in higher-ups minds?

    1. Havarti*

      Ouch! That’s not cool. Is there a manager that is like your main boss? The one who does provide the feedback? I think it’s worth having a talk with them about how this 3 year old mistake would affect your ability to advance within the company. It’s possible the concerned manager may not have much say in whether you get promoted or not. Or they’re nitpicking fussbudget and no one takes them seriously. The answer you get will determine your next steps.

      If people didn’t get promoted because they made relatively minor mistakes at some point in their career, then no one would ever get promoted! I bet concerned manager screwed up royally at least once in their life. Or do they think they’re perfect???

      1. atisketatasket*

        Yes, there is that manager – I work under a strangely parallel structure, so imagine two Directors of Teapot Construction that oversee separate teams of Teapot Designers and Teapot Engineers. Our work sometimes crosses, so I technically report to Fergus, the Director of Teapot Construction, but Cleveland is the other Director of Teapot Construction, and he has the concern. I’ll definitely reach out to Fergus and see if I can clarify if there are still concerns on his end.

        Thank you for making me feel a little less nuts – I understand that mistakes are never optimal, but it just seemed so surreal to have it brought up as still concerning. I appreciate it!

  86. Why Oh Why Does this keep happening?*

    For the umpteenth time, my supervisor has sent her reports an email about her vacation on the night before the first day of said vacation.

    In other words, she never EVER tells us about her vacation plans! We have to ask her permission for a boatload of things (more than necessary in my opinion), and it’s evaluation time. I have a long list of things I’d planned to discuss in our one-on-one on Tuesday.

    I want to tell her she’s just plain rude and inconsiderate, but I know that’s not the right approach. When she returns I plan to tell her how disruptive it is to have her up and disappear when we need her input/permission. She has a designated mini-me who stands in for her, but that’s not the same.

    1. Susan K*

      No advice for you, but the managers in my department are also terrible about telling us when they’re going on vacation. More often than not, I only find out that they’re already on vacation when I send an e-mail and get an out of office message! I don’t expect them to tell us where they’re going or what they’re doing, but it would be nice if they could at least tell us in advance the dates they’re not going to be here.

    2. copier queen*

      It would be easier if she would email everyone the DAY before, during the workday, so you could ask her that day who should sign off on the Llama Grooming requests in her absence – or does she want the requests to wait until after she returns. Perhaps you could ask her to consider giving everyone a little more notice that she will be away? Or set up a system with her so there’s a permanent designee in place to sign off on the requests in her absence?

      I’m pretty sure people get frustrated with my boss because she goes on vacation/professional conferences without giving them advanced notice. I think she feels it causes less disruption in the office if she doesn’t shout from the rooftop that she is away. However, she responds to urgent emails while she is gone, and for those who ask in advance, she either gives them a signature designee, or asks that all reports be left on her desk for when she returns.
      Do you think it’s unusual that she scheduled a one-on-one with you when she knew she would be on vacation? Or is this a standing meeting for every Tuesday?

      1. Why Oh Why Does this keep happening?*

        Our one-on-one meetings are automatically set in Outlook. This time she rescheduled, which is nice. Usually she doesn’t bother.

    3. Yorick*

      You can ask how she wants you to go about getting approval when she’s out. If there’s an opening for it in the conversation, you could possibly mention that knowing about her vacation in advance would allow you to get approval before she leaves.

    4. Why Oh Why Does this keep happening?*

      Clarification: her mini-me can approve things, but I have written an evaluation that *has* to go through her. She handed me her “corrections” (she rewrites everything) yesterday afternoon, so I won’t be able to finish the evaluation process for over a week. Grrr!!!

  87. GriefBacon*

    Interested in opinions about 2 week’s notice timing. Do you consider 2 weeks to include the day you’re giving notice? Or does 2 weeks start the day after you give notice.

    1. Starley*

      In my experience, it includes the day you give it, and it’s given as early in the day as possible. With maybe one or two exceptions, notice was given Monday morning and the following Friday was their last day.

  88. Career Confused*

    I’ve been working in an office for several years (reception and administrative assistant at a couple of places) and have started to realize that it’s not something I enjoy or can suck up and just do. The things I’d like to do don’t translate into stable income so I’m at a total loss as to how to proceed with my career. Can anyone offer any tips or even blog posts that may help me get out of this rut? Thanks!

    1. Havarti*

      What is it that you like to do? What are some kinds of non-office jobs you might be interested in doing? Would you want to repair things for example? Would you be open to vocational training or an apprenticeship? Some people do suck it up and work jobs they don’t like because it pays the money they can use to do the things they do like. But if you’re looking for a career or a calling, what is most important to you?

    2. Oogie*

      If you’re looking for something different, try banking. With your experience it shouldn’t be hard to get a teller or CSR position.

    3. AliceW*

      You could try temping which would give you exposure to a number of different types of industries to get a better idea of a potential field to transition into which might be of more interest. I left my first job out of college as an admin assistant to temp. Or you could keep on with your current work and pursue your hobbies as a side hustle. I eventually transitioned into finance, which I have never considered a career. It is just a well paying job I don’t hate. I continued to pursue art and creative writing as my hobbies. At about the age of 34 I decided to save, save, save all my money for early retirement. I worked to save and only developed my “career” so I could make and save more money. Next year I will be 47 and plan to fully retire from my 9 to 5 and pursue my hobbies full time. I still feel young. We’re all generally living longer, healthier lives. You could always decide to start to pursue your true passions once you have become financially independent and simply work to achieve that financial independent as early as possible. Good luck!

  89. Is it weird to send coworkers an edible arrangement for completing a work project?*

    There is an internal team that produces work for my team (think they make teapot parts and I work on a team that is responsible for the quality of teapots. I am responsible for the quality of spouts). They recently completed a big project for my area and were working long hours. I QA work thoroughly and brought a lot of their work back for re-dos until it matched the exact specifications required. I’m sure this was frustrating for them, but I also think it was essential in making sure we had a polished product. I want to recognize the work they did, and how challenging of a client I can be, with a nice gesture. I bought thank you notes that I plan on sending, but would it be weird to send an edible arrangement to their office? I have done that for others outside of work (like my realtor or mortgage broker) but don’t know if it would be weird to do for coworkers.

    1. Queen of the Duck Club*

      I think it depends on how much interaction you’ve had with them. If you saw them everyday or two and the interactions were positive I would say go for it as long as there is enough for everyone on their team. Everyone likes to be appreciated. But if you think they would see it in any other was other than positive feedback for a job well done, I wouldn’t. Also, see if your company has any sort of policy against gift giving first to make sure you don’t break any rules.

      1. Marcy Marketer*

        This probably gives it away, but I spoke with the BAs every day and very rarely with the developers, though they were doing work for just my area (which only I manage) every day. Both the developers and the BAs worked very hard and I want to recognize that somehow.

        1. Queen of the Duck Club*

          I think it would be fine then, it can be nice to be appreciated even if you have never directly worked with them. I know it developing positions it can seem like you are forgotten sometimes and its very easy to see the negative. I think that if it were me I would appreciate the fact that someone outside my department is taking the time to recognize the excellent work after a period of stress.

  90. SJPufendork*

    As part of a merger, I’ve picked up two new direct reports transferring from similar teams to mine. My group is a full time remote working group, which others are not. Likewise, as long as the work gets done accurately well and efficiently, I don’t really care about people’s hours.

    Unfortunately, my two new reports are having a little problems adjusting to this type of freedom. As an example, one has a medical procedure scheduled shortly, which will put him out of office for about a week. No problems from my end — I’ve got coverage ready to go. But, we just found out that a project has been rescheduled to the same time period and he wants to reschedule his surgery because (and I quote) “that’s what my old manager would expect.”

    This phrasing/concern has happened more than once — things like asking to sign out at 4:30 pm to go to a drs apt with the assurance that they’ll make up the 30 minutes later (not needed) or apologizing for having to take a sick day when they have the flu (take the time! we have generous leave!).

    I know in the end it’s probably just a matter of time and follow through that’ll get them through this. But it can be so tiring reassuring the new people that I mean what I say without saying anything negative about their previous manager (who has since left the company). Does anyone have any additional ideas?

    1. Havarti*

      I don’t know there’s anything else you can do except give them time and don’t reassure them after the first few times for the sake of your own sanity – that’s quite a bit of emotional labor there. I would address the whole rescheduling surgery thing because… yeah. But if they ask to leave at 4:30 and add they’ll make it up later, just respond with “That’s fine. Thanks for letting me know!” and ignore the part about making up the lost time. Let them work the additional 30 minutes if they want to. Out with the flu: “Ok, hope you feel better soon!” and ignore the apology.

      Or, if you feel like you haven’t been clear enough, sit down with them each for a one-on-one and do one last “Hey, I know your previous boss wanted things done a certain way but we’re able to be more flexible here. I understand you have a life outside of work and people get sick and need medical care and that is ok with me. All I need you to do is to keep me in the loop on your schedule so we can plan around the scheduled things and just email me when you’re sick and can’t come in. I would never expect you to reschedule surgery or apologize for being sick so please don’t do that.” And then stop reassuring? Good luck!

      1. SJPufendork*

        You’ve got a good point! I do need to stop reassuring them, mainly because I do find it exhausting.

        I think a lot of my own aggravation is I’ve spent many years fighting the “butts in seats” mentality and I’m annoyed in absentia at their previous manager, mainly because I’ve got two good performers who clearly are terrified of doing something “wrong”.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Write out your expectations, or give them a faq sheet. You will have to repeat yourself especially if their previous boss was an ass.
      You can say things like “I prefer a different structure…” or “In our group, we…. and now you are part of us so you are expected to do the same…”
      It will take about a year for them to start to settle in. Yeah, this is how destructive toxic bosses are.

      You might be able to speed things along by asking them their opinion on things, where appropriate. It also helps if you answer each and every question sincerely and respectfully no matter how basic the question is.

      1. SJPufendork*

        That’s another great point. I hadn’t really considered how toxic the former manager must have been. But based on the little comments they make regarding my deadlines (mine are very reasonable and doable, which seems to stun these reports, since I build in QA time), I am thinking the previous guy really did a number on them.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah, that is what it is sounding like to me. I had a group that had been pretty beat up. It took at least 6 or 8 months to get them to exhale after I started and it was a good year before they finally settled down.

          1) I made sure never to yell across the room at them. I would walk over to them. I went as far as to lower my voice when I was talking in boss mode- giving instructions, guidance or correction.
          2)I ask them their opinions on things we were using or doing. I took their suggestions seriously. And implemented as many ideas as possible.
          3) I never talked about anyone of them with other people. This was huge.
          4) I worked my butt off to be consistent with them. I did not say ‘do A” on Monday and then “never do A” on Tuesday. If I gave them erroneous information, I made sure I clearly stated, “The info I gave you on Monday was wrong. I am sorry. The correct info is to NEVER do A. I apologize for the confusion on that.”
          5) I apologized when it was appropriate, such as I misspoke, made an error or neglected something. If I created more work for them because of my error then I would help clean up the mess.
          6) I showed them how I wanted them to handle recurring problems. Sometimes they had to get me and sometimes they could figure it out based on rules of thumb I gave them.
          7) I made sure they had what they needed to do their jobs. I busted my butt to get them anything they were lacking.
          8) I made sure they understood company policies and I made sure they understood expectations regarding the work in front of them.

          I gotta say what happened next was one of the most remarkable things I have seen. This average group of people became super productive- like knock it out of the park productive. They ended up being better at my job than I was, they had ideas that were fantastic. They were better at forecasting completion times than I was. My role became the glue that kept them together and kept them up to date on what the current goals were. It was an amazing experience.

        2. Observer*

          Any boss that expects their reports to reschedule surgery to accommodate a new project must have been quite toxic. I supposed if it’s the launch of the new vaccine for an expected flu pandemic, that’s reasonable. But for a typical business project?!

          Yeah, it’s going to take some time for your new guys to calm down.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Please tell them explicitly what your expectations are. This should calm things down considerably.

  91. Notthemomma*

    it’s time to move on from a job I loved for over 5 years. But with 175% turnover in 4 years, no raises, no promotions, and me taking on the roles of two other people, I can’t sustain this.

    If/when I leave, there will be no one who knows how to do what I do in a company of 23k globally. I install and train on right handed red teapots with intricate brewing instructions while our sister team installs and trains on left handed blue teapots with simple pour and place teabags (not even loose leaf tea options!). Their team doesn’t know our processes, doesn’t have system access, and are, frankly, unwilling to go beyond what they currently do (one rep is still asking basic questions two years in) I’m trying to put update old processes, but I simply don’t have time to explain every . Single . Step/term/why. The company has changed so much that I’m frequently at a loss of what a team has been renamed to.

    It’s okay to do ask much as possible, say ‘here are the gaps, and good luck’ right? Mentally I know it should be, but I feel like I’m leaving them to fail due to my managers lack of planning in putting an emphasis on cross training.

    1. Marcy Marketer*

      I’ve learned from my time working at a non-profit where everyone had learned helplessness that you can’t control others behavior. If they refuse to do the work, the work will not get done. This is not your problem— it’s the problem of leadership who retains people who refuse to learn.

      What you can and should do is talk to your boss and tell her that you believe no one at this company is trained to produce red handled teapots. Ask her if she would like to designate someone to learn so there is backup. Whether she said yes or no, now it’s not your problem; it’s an organizational decision. Write as much down as you can in terms of processes that way at least you did your due diligence.

      1. crying at work is fun!*

        Yes. Document what you can, train who you can, but at the end of the day, it’s up to the company to decide what’s important to them. If it fails after you leave, well, you did what you could and it’s not your problem to fix.

    2. Artemesia*

      Document as best you can in a job aid of processes for what you do. And offer to cross train someone during your two week notice period. Then move on and disengage. Don’t respond to more than one or two follow up calls for help. It is reasonable for them to realize they don’t know where you keep X or to get a password that somehow didn’t get communicated — but nothing beyond that.

    3. Reba*

      Not your fault the company is arranged that no one else knows what you do. All that stuff that’s making you leave, not your fault.

    4. Buu*

      Yes it’s their fault they are understaffed not you. You didn’t sign on for eternity! Do what you can to handover properly and leave on good terms then never look back.

  92. A colleague called it a pink ghetto and it stuck*

    Two positions came up in the same unit in my organization last year. Job 1 is the more junior position, and handles issue A. Job 2 is the more senior position that handles issues B and C.

    Issue A is an interesting subject, but it was going to be a move downwards, and I wasn’t keen on that at this point. It also happens to be an issue that is stereotyped as being “women’s work”.

    I am an expert in issue B. It is in a male-dominated field and it took a lot of work to get to the level of expertise and experience I now have. It is considered, even by me, as being more ‘serious’ than the other fields. Going to meetings for this issue, it’s a fight for a place at the table and not at the back of the room.

    I have no experience whatsoever in issue C. It is not something I have any particular interest in and it is considered almost exclusively the purview of junior female employees. Going to meetings for this issue, it is 98% women under the age of 30. Extremely competent women, but there is rarely, if ever, a male employee there, and if there is, he’s an intern that is warming the spot.

    So I started the B/C job a few months ago, figuring that I can keep up my specialty in B and C is good experience even if I have absolutely no background in it.

    I learned earlier this week that our grandboss’ “vision” is that I drop B and take on A. I don’t yet have any particular reason why (it hasn’t been raised as a performance issue at all, just as a need for bodies in certain places at certain times).

    The problem is that I don’t want to. I have no previous experience in either A or C, it’s a rock star kind of shop, and I feel strongly about being able to be really good at at least part of job and not be set up for failure.

    If I am being honest though, I also don’t want to be shuttled into the “pink ghetto” while someone else handles the “hard” and “serious” stuff.

    Is there ANY way for me to raise this with my boss without sounding like either a whiner or a jerk?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Yes. I’ve done something very similar (although not in the same context), where I laid my intentions out clearly for my boss: “I came to this organization to do B, and frankly I’m not interested in investing more time in A. There’s a clear need for my expertise in B, and I’d like talk through plans to shift my work/ensure that my work stays in that area.”

      This conversation was grounded in four realities that gave me the power to do this: 1) There was genuinely a need for someone to do B; 2) I was the best person available to do B; and 3) I would be willing to leave if I weren’t able to do B (I eventually had to say that explicitly but they should be hearing the implication from the beginning); and 4) They didn’t want me to leave.

  93. Blank*

    UK academics: can you suggest scripts for informally reaching out to named contacts in job posts? I’ve been told – by trustworthy sources – I should get in touch to clarify what they’re looking for, but I’m stuck on what to say in the email. Help?

    (It’s apparently normal for my discipline to do this, so I’m not looking to be talked out of making contact before I formally apply!)

  94. CleverGirl*

    I need help! When I get stressed out or feel put on the spot, my mind goes blank and I forget simple words that I’ve known my entire life. It happened in an interview for my current job, when I was asked a technical question and I wanted to say that I would parse a string and I couldn’t remember the word “parse”. Keep in mind I have a CS minor from undergrad and have been programming to some degree for over a decade. This is not a new or unfamiliar word for me. (I somehow got offered the job anyway but I think that’s because the person asking me the question has a reputation in this group for being difficult and confrontational so they didn’t put much weight on her questions or my answers to them in the interview.) More recently, in a volunteer capacity I was trying to answer a question and couldn’t remember the word “strategically”. I was trying to navigate around it and ended up saying “with… a plan in mind…” but it sounded stupid and like I didn’t know what I was talking about.

    I’m worried that I’m never going to be able to get a job again because of the way I stress out in interviews and forget simple things I’ve known forever, so it makes me look like I don’t know things that I actually do, and it makes me look stupid in general. I don’t know how to fix this. I’m great at public speaking. I’ve given many scientific talks and presentations and I always do really well. It’s just the part where people ask me questions and I feel put on the spot that stresses me out. I think a lot of it is insecurity (and imposter syndrome) because I feel subconsciously like I won’t be able to answer the questions because I don’t know very much about the subject and then I will be found out. Does anyone have any suggestions? Right now my only plan is “make friends with someone who owns a company and get them to hire me without an interview” but I don’t think that strategy is going to work.

    :(

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I do this too! And I actually know some words will always give me a problem in high stakes situations because….reasons? My brain is weird? I have no idea. “Amplify” is my big bugbear for whatever reason. The way I get around this by practicing the words and phrases I know are going to get slippery when I get nervous, plus any words/phrases/concepts that are key to the role I want or the role I’m leaving, or really the industry in general. (I hit the ones you have slipped up on before especially hard.)

      And don’t beat yourself up to much for rephrasing on the fly. That’s actually an excellent skill to have. What you said meant the same thing, and the only one who knows you meant to say it differently or more succinctly is you. If it happens again, just make sure you say your rephrase with as much confidence as you would your original vocab choice.

    2. Parenthetically*

      There is a LOT of good stuff in the “I’m hypersensitive to criticism” comments section from a few days ago, about embracing/accepting your responses to stress as a way to halt the spiral of “Oh hell, it’s happening again, now I’m getting even more stressed, agh it’s getting worse, nooooooo”. Lil Fidget had some excellent advice, and there were lots of recommendations for books/Ted Talks, etc. Highly recommended if you haven’t read through it — I know it’s not perfectly analogous to your situation but I think there’s enough overlap that you might find something helpful there.

    3. Cherie*

      I used to have issues like this giving presentations. There are basically two main approaches. One is to work on the anxiety itself. The other is to work on coping with it. I’ve found that overpreparing and practicing helps with both. You might also find some good suggestions by looking into resources for people with social anxiety. Not suggesting you do, but the strategies mat be similar. Good luck!

    4. Why Oh Why Does this keep happening?*

      “stress out in interviews and forget simple things I’ve known forever, so it makes me look like I don’t know things that I actually do, and it makes me look stupid in general. ”

      I have had this problem since a severe concussion years ago. I have discovered a few strategies that work for me, but it requires taking a moment to think in the mental pathway that works, and I forget to do that in high stress situations. (It happens at almost any stress level and isn’t totally predictable).

      I’m considering consulting a psychiatrist to find a drug I could take, like an ACE inhibitor. I know that ACE inhibitors work for some things like that.

    6. Specialk9*

      I have word retrieval problems, in general, and almost always with appliance names. So research “word retrieval problems” and talk to a speech pathologist if you think it’s necessary. It’s not being stupid, it’s about being wired in a certain way that you need strategies for.

  95. Mimmy*

    Career advancement quandaries!

    This is more of a vent than a question –

    I am currently working as a part-time (per-diem) instructor at a state-run vocational rehabilitation training facility, but am really itching to either get my duties expanded or just move on. My students (adults with a specific disability) really like my class–and I like them–but for me, it can be very boring because I’m just teaching a specific technique – once I get them started on a lesson, I just sit back, checking their technique and helping/prompting when appropriate.

    I’ve now developed an interest in this particular disability population and think I could really contribute my skills in this somewhat niche area. I have hinted to my supervisor that this is not a job I want to stay in for many years, and I think she gets that. I want to grow but I feel stuck because 1) of how much my students enjoy having me as an instructor, 2) I am rusty on some skills and 3) lack experience needed to advance or move on. I have a good idea of my long-term goals, but just don’t know how to get there. Yes I am aware that there are lots of training options, but I don’t want to spend money when there’s no guarantee it’ll help and, because of my job classification, I don’t think I’d be eligible for professional development support.

    You’ve all been really, really helpful over the years, but what I really need is help with mapping out a realistic plan. I probably need to find a mentor or career counselor.

  96. Kat Em*

    People who’ve negotiated for a relocation bonus, can you tell me about how that worked? This is the first time my husband and I have ever moved for a job that wasn’t an internal promotion. (There’s a job offer on the table, but he hasn’t formally accepted yet.

    1. Yorick*

      I’ve gotten relocation expenses covered twice, and both times it was not adversarial or tricky. The first time, I just asked if the company offered assistance with relocation, and they came back with an amount they would reimburse for. The second time, it was offered so I didn’t have to ask for it, but I would have started the conversation the same way.

      But make sure they put it in the offer letter – the first company refused to and I didn’t have any problems, but they later claimed they offered my coworker 1/2 of what they actually did.

    2. Thlayli*

      As I recall I asked if it would be included. Or maybe I asked how much relocation would be – but I’m not certain.

    3. Borgette*

      My husband’s new job offered us relocation money after we requested it. Honestly, there’s been a frustrating amount of red tape, but once we get the POD charges reimbursed it will have been worth it.

  97. RoboGirl*

    What are your best tips for sticking out a really boring job with a lot of detailed work? I’m working on a master’s and this job gives me a foot in the door and lots of room to move up, but the entry-level I’m at now is 90% drudgery. The other 10% is what I’ll be doing in higher positions after my degree and I LOVE it, I just have to get through the next year and a half.

    1. Thlayli*

      I find giving myself a challenge works best eg “last week I did 30 of these let’s see if I can do more this week

  98. I Love JavaScript*

    Not a question, but a vent…

    I’ve changed careers over the last year and got my first software engineering job offer about a month ago. But this company has been nothing but a pain in the ass since then. The company is based in the Midwest and all their hiring norms and benefit seem to be out of sync for the market here in SF where their engineering team is. Some examples:

    1. They initially offered their standard vacation package (0 days for the first 6 months, 5 days after that, 10 days after the first year), which is way below the norm for engineers in SF. Industry standard is 15 days to start, so I negotiated and they agreed to give me the extra days.

    2. Their monthly healthcare premium contribution was more than $300, just for the employee. That doesn’t include a spouse or any dependents. My husband’s job (also in tech) covers both of us for significantly less than that total.

    3. They sprung a drug test on me and made my signed offer contingent on passing it. They’re including pot in it, which is actually legal here. I pushed back on this, but they were willing to blow up my offer over it and I wasn’t. Any jobs after this, I’m going to refuse (if it’s even asked–everyone I’ve told about it has been incredulous), but this is my first chance at professional experience as an engineer, so I don’t feel like I can walk away.

    4. I won’t have a company-issued computer for a few weeks, so I’m going to have to bring my own in and use it until then.

    This stuff may seem pretty normal to someone outside of tech in SF, but it’s decidedly not normal here. Especially the drug testing–they’ve already admitted it’s caused problems for their hiring and the lead engineer out here is trying to find a way around it for future hires. This has all turned my excitement for the opportunity into frustration and I’m upset that I can’t just be happy about the new job.

    1. Oranges*

      Hello fellow JavaScripter! Yeah, that’s just plain dumb. I could count on my fingers the number of good JS programmers I know (two). So they’re really not understanding what a good one is worth since “anyone can code JavaScript”. This is true but anyone can build a house (or at least something that resembles a house if you squint at it) but unless you know what you’re doing that house is gonna be leaky, and structurally unsound and is gonna collapse in a year. You need a construction worker. Same with JavaScript. I can’t tell you how much bad code I run into.

      My Rant: I get so annoyed by people who come from a class based language and want JS to follow that structure. It’s like, NO, that isn’t how this works, JavaScript is a very flexible fluid language and you’re making it brittle and weird and it’s not working. Granted there does need to be more structure if you’re building a large web application but just… let JavaScript BE JavaScript.

      1. I Love JavaScript*

        Preach! A lot of people crap on JavaScript (especially Node), but it’s a remarkably flexible, performant language. It’s easy to get started with (which means it’s easy to write really poorly) and there are a million different ways to do the same thing–each with their own tradeoffs.

        And I agree with you on the class-based structure. Sure, there are times an object-oriented approach makes sense, but there are also other times when a functional approach makes sense. You’ve got to use all the tools in your belt–you shouldn’t just stick to one.

    2. Marcy Marketer*

      Because you’re going through a career change, you may need to accept a package that’s different than “standard.” I know I did when accepting my first job. Once you get your foot in the door and have some experience, you can try to find a place with better packages.

      Also, I’ll say that drug testing is pretty standard for major corporations and that weed is illegal federally so that’s probably why.

      Not having a company computer would be a total dealbreaker, although I also had to use my own for my first job.

      1. I Love JavaScript*

        I get that, which is why I’m dealing with the non-standard aspects of the new job, but it definitely dampened my enthusiasm.

        That said, drug testing is really uncommon in this part of California, especially for skilled positions. I’ve been in the workforce for awhile and have never had to have one, even when I was working in highly-regulated industries. It’s pretty common where the company is headquartered and their only employees in California are engineers, so the HR department there doesn’t really get how out of the norm this is. If this were my second engineering job instead of my first, I would’ve walked away at that point. I consider it ethically problematic to screen out employees based on what they consume in their off hours, even if it is illegal on the federal level.

        Also, I had to do the drug test twice. The first time didn’t get them a good enough sample, so I had to go in again. This wasted hours of my life and pushed back my start date because I’m not allowed onsite until the results come back, but they didn’t tell me I needed to retest until 2 days before my scheduled start. Needless to say, I’m kind of pissed.

        Hopefully the new computer will come soon, but getting that sprung on me was also really startling.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Let me guess – you’re doing a development for a company whose primary business is NotTech.

      I’m also in the Midwest and have to deal with #3 at my company – probably because our parent company isn’t a tech company. But it was made clear well in advance that this was a requirement.

      #4 is just weird. Granted, I don’t like BYOD anyway, but if they want you to work for them, they should give you the tools to actually, you know, work.

      Are they at least paying you an appropriate salary for your location, or are they expecting you to live on a Midwestern salary? Because the COL difference is kind of a lot (one reason I don’t want to take a job that would require me to live in the Bay Area).

      1. I Love JavaScript*

        Bingo! Got it in one. Stodgy, old, NotTech company with a tiny engineering team (I’m #5) and only the engineers are based in SF.

        #4 is weird. They just got their offices in SF set up (before this they were in a coworking space) so it’s probably a function of that–they’re ordering things for everyone and it’s routed through HQ, so it’s taking time.

        And don’t worry, pay is market rate for SF. I’ve lived here for more than a decade and I made six figures in my last (non-engineering) role, so during our initial discussions I made it clear that I’d only accept market rate for the industry and area. The offer was fair ($$-wise anyway)–I was shocked at the standard benefits, but at least I was able to negotiate my vacation time to an industry/location standard amount.

    4. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      This is an aside – but would you be willing to share a bit about what prompted you to make a career switch, why and how you decided this path, and how long it took? Its nice to see someone else making a change also, I would love to hear about the thought process and potential pitfalls!

      1. I Love JavaScript*

        Sure! I graduated from college during the recession and I took whatever jobs I could to pay rent for a couple of years (temping, call center, retail, etc.). My first real job a few years later was as a Receptionist at a Private Equity firm in SF. The pay was decent and the benefits were good, so I decided to stick with it and follow the admin track. By this time last year, I was an Executive Assistant supporting a Group Head/Partner and his team, making 6 figures. I was really good at it, but it wasn’t for me. I was bored and I needed something that used a different part of my brain to be happy.

        A couple of years ago I started coding in my free time as a hobby (Codecademy classes, r/dailyprogrammer challenges, etc.), but about a year and a half ago I realized that it was something I wanted to do for my career. I researched the various paths and eventually picked the bootcamp in my city with the best reputation from employers and the highest rates of employment post-graduation. I prepared for the interview (they require you to be very fluent in JavaScript before you come in–they describe it as a 60-120 course, not a 0-60 course), got in, quit my job, did the program, and am now about to start my new job.

        The biggest challenges I’ve seen for people that attempt this are:
        1. Money/Time: it’s expensive and you can’t work for at least 4 months (3 months for the program + job searching, most people usually experience a closer to 6 month gap) because it’s 80 hours a week while you’re doing it.
        2. Pace: it’s extremely fast paced and not everyone excels at “drinking from a fire hose”-style learning, no matter how smart they are.
        3. Autonomy: while there are staff to help you out if you get really stuck, you’re expected to not call for help at the first sign of trouble. You’re expected to try to struggle through the material on your own, since that’s the way it’ll be at a job. Not everyone is good at this type of learning either. There was a woman in my class who had a computer science degree from an ivy-league school and she was hard to work with because she couldn’t seem to figure anything out on her own. She needed detailed instructions to get started on every project.

        Let me know if you have any other questions! I’m always happy to talk about this stuff.

        1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

          Very cool – thanks for the response! I would be looking more towards UX (research or design) as it fits my background very well and is something I have been poking around the edges for a number of years now. But I wanted to start doing some light HTML/CSS/JavaScript learning in my free time over the next few months while I wrap up this big project a work, just for a new challenge to keep me thinking. I currently do project management and strategy work, but I desperately miss product specific strategy/development/design/marketing, the whole lot and would like to go back to it, just not necessarily in a central strategy role. I know there will very likely be significant downtime after this project as there is a reorg at work, so may as well start in order to use my time more effectively at work!

          Glad to hear the bootcamp approach worked – I was considering a part-time course here with one of the better known providers (especially since it is handily just up the road from our home) but was concerned about what happens after in regards to getting a job.

  99. Ask a Manager* Post author

    MEN OF AAM: For some reason, all the guests I’ve scheduled so far for the Ask a Manager podcast have been women. (Interestingly, my mail in general doesn’t have that same divide.) I’m hoping to get some dudes on as well! So if you are a dude and you have a work question you’d like to talk over with me on the show, please email it to podcast@askamanager.org. Thank you!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      (I should clarify that I have had some questions from men, but I’m looking for questions that I think will benefit from a lot of back-and-forth discussion and I haven’t received any from men yet that I think will work really well in that format.)

    2. Serious Sam*

      The obvious person to talk to would be Matt Reed. His blog is here: https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean

      Questions could be:
      What should community colleges be teaching?
      What are reasonable expectations of a hiring manager ?
      What has Matt Read learned as a manager?

      (Some of his posts, although focused on higher education, are applicable to all fields, e.g. “Her line, which I remember to this day, was “don’t you want to know the whole person?” I surprised her with a “no,” saying that it’s not up to me to judge the whole person. My job was to evaluate job performance. The rest of a professor’s life wasn’t any of my business, as long as it didn’t interfere at work.” https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/hugging-really ).

  100. Goya de la Mancha*

    Requesting a new Service/Sales Rep: I’m not sure how I should go about addressing this, do I email the creator/owner?

    We have a program that we utilize for about 75% of our day to day business, for the last 5 years. While I’m far from an expert, I feel I have a very good grasp on how the program works. Recently (within the last year or so), I’ve seen the quality of the software support provided deteriorating. I’m not sure if this is a company wide issue (can happen easily when new-ish companies grow faster then they can support) or if it specifically the person who answers our support tickets. Also, I’m not sure if this person is like a one woman tech support team or if she’s just assigned to us as she’s the only one who answers my ticket requests.

    The most recent event was in regards to the a grooming software update. I emailed support regarding if it was possible to have a check box added or if it was possible for us to upload scanned items for the forms because we CAN NOT have customers coming around counters/past intake to our work desks to sign the consent form when they come to drop their llama off in-house. The response given by this specific support person was that I can have people sign at our computer, or our department should purchase a computer/tablet to utilize specifically for this reason. Neither of these is a viable solution (nor shows that my request was actually read as I stated that it was NOT an option).

    There have been other questions that I’m unhappy with how they were handled, but I’m unsure of how I go about addressing this. As I’m not sure how the company structure really works, the only person I KNOW is in charge is the creator of the company and the only way to get a hold of someone else is to create a support ticket (which is just answered by this problem person).

    1. Havarti*

      It’s possible your request was read but the answer is “no, we will not add a check box or make it possible to upload scanned items” but they don’t want to actually come out and say it so the tech support rep is forced to write a response that makes her look like an idiot. Ask me how I know. :D

      That being said, it’s worth setting up a call between the creator/owner and whoever is high enough up in the hierarchy on your side (you, boss, grandboss, ceo, whoever) and have a discussion about how this software is or isn’t meeting your needs at this point. Is it something you pay for on a yearly basis? A multi-year contract? Does the creator make changes to the software based on customer input? Did you get it as-is or was it custom tailored to your needs? Is there a maintenance contract that covers what sort of things you can request from them? Is there another software out there that can do the thing but better? You don’t want to kill your existing relationship and lose the ability to do your job if they terminate support but I think a discussion should be had if you’re getting this frustrated.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        “Ask me how I know. :D”

        ughhhH! How frustrating on that end, gives me a LITTLE more sympathy for her, but still not forgiving her for talking to me like I’m a troglodyte during other support tickets.

        It’s a yearly contract, so cancelling isn’t a problem or anything. It’s a base model type program, but certain modules are able to be toggled on/off based on company needs. They do take suggestions and have worked very hard over the last 5 years to keep rolling out updates/new features. The real problem is that there isn’t a lot of other programs out there that fit our niche needs as well as this one. Most companies like us only do Llama and Alpaca grooming, but our department does Llama, Alpaca, and Emu grooming. So while we can find Llama/Alpaca OR Emu software, no one does all 3 – so we band-aid fix it as best we can and make it work.

        My main thing is that I feel weird contacting the creator/owner (when I feel like it should be handled by lower management), but the only other names (sales people) I have from the company aren’t really in manager positions to be dealing with this.

        1. Havarti*

          Ok, first try seeing if the salespeople can escalate your request for a meeting to someone higher up and then go to the owner if that doesn’t work. People can forward messages internally. And the owner can delegate to someone in lower management if needed. But if you’re going to the owner, make sure it’s someone on your end with enough clout doing the contacting to make them sit up and realize this is serious. Even if the actual talking is handled by the tech people, having like a VP in the room listening in is a good way to drive that point home.

          Improving tech support should be doable – that’s not an unreasonable request. If business is booming, support should be expanding to match. In theory.

          Adding check-boxes will likely depend how much they want to keep your business and whether the money you give them is enough to justify making and debugging the changes if you’re the only client asking for that feature.

          And don’t worry, you’re not required to forgive her if she’s been unpleasant.

  101. Llamatown*

    You guys! Someone who was following up with me on a job application they had submitted used a script of Alison’s and FORGOT to remove the llama reference. It was so amazing. She updated all relevant parts, but left this in: “I was hoping to check in with you about the *llama wrangling* job.”

    After an hour of laughter, I responded with an update and also a mention that I, too, am an AAM follower.

    2. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      This is fantastic. I really hope you told her that you hope she also apply for the open rice sculpting position!

    6. Former Govt Contractor*

      This is the funniest thing ever!!!! Is she still in the running for the job?

      1. Llamatown*

        She is – the update that I gave her is that she interviewed extremely well (obviously under Alison’s tutelage) and she’s in the final two. I also assume she might be reading here today … *waves*

    9. Not So NewReader*

      That is awesome.
      Well, Llamatown, she accidentally let you know how much she wants to be a good employee and work for a good employer.
      Of course, I hope the best person for the job gets the job, but if it were me, the fact that she reads AAM might push me in her direction.

    10. Drama Llama*

      OMG….this is awesome. I really, really hope she gets the job. Make sure you get her business cards as a Senior Executive Llama Wrangler.

  102. Laura H*

    Policy update etiquette?

    Alison, if this is too loosely related to work- please delete.

    So I found out that a policy has changed at the service I use to get to work for my weekday shifts when I called in this morning to inquire an ETA on my ride’s arrival time for my pickup. It’s a good policy (to confirm the reservations on a month to month basis) but the fact that gee it’s not useful to be told the new policy at the first of the month that you were supposed to confirm for that month and that you have no ride.

    Fortunately today my shift starts on the later side and I have an alternative way in. But how much responsibility is mine and how much is it theirs? I only call in when things go wrong (in this case I didn’t get a call with an ETA yesterday- and the times those come in vary enough-or may nor come in at all-that I thought nothing of it.)

    It’s a gov subsidized public transit and I have already emailed the head of it to convey my annoyance and tell them that advance communication of this new policy was not done and that it could be more than a minor annoyance for someone else if another policy change happens and non-conveying is the option they choose to take.

    1. fposte*

      I think the policy has to be announced before it’s implemented to give people time to book under the new policy. While a service like this can’t necessarily call or email everybody, they should paper the vehicles with notices about the change and hand out leaflets.

    2. Mimmy*

      The communication from my service isn’t great either, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a common problem. Sometimes there’s a recorded announcement before you hear the menu options, but I don’t call that often (I do most reservations and cancellations through their website).

  103. Maybe BSN*

    Has anyone here gone back to school for a second career as a nurse? Would love to here about your experience going from an office job to working on a hospital floor.

    1. Slartibartfast*

      Currently working on going from vet tech to CMA, virtual fist bump and good luck :)

    2. ..Kat..*

      I have. I went from being a computer programmer to a nurse on a hospital unit (PICU). It is hard work, but I love it. I can’t imagine ever going back to an office job.

      Do you have any specific questions? What kind of job do you do now? What attracts you to nursing?

      1. ..Kat..*

        I’ll check back over the weekend thru Sunday for any questions from you, so don’t feel it is too late to ask.

      2. Maybe BSN*

        Totally missed your reply. GAH!

        I’d love to know how you found the switch from 9 to 5 to the 12 hour shifts. Do you miss being in an office? Do you find the different schedule sustainable? Was there anything you’d wish you known before taking the plunge?

  104. Dotty*

    What would be your ideal first day /week/month in a new job?

    So I have some new staff starting in my team in two weeks – it’ll be the first time I’ve had new staff for six years because the rest of my team have been in post for at least that long. I’m really excited but also weirdly nervous! What can I do as a manager to welcome them and get them off to a good start? whether about their role or the company more widely? Any suggestions welcome!

    Does anyone have any particular good experiences to share about starting a new job (or horror stories – I.e what not to do when on onboarding new staff!)?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, I would give them a couple of options. One place I started at had this whole orientation week, in which you spent the day with a couple of people who would show you parts of their job (and how it would interface with yours) and then you had scheduled lunches with various different departments, too. It was well-intentioned and would probably work for a lot of people, but I’m an introvert, so it ended up being a fairly stressful week.

      I think I’d be happiest with “You don’t have to do anything in these first two weeks, except get comfortable. Here are all your logins. Here’s a list of who to go to for what. Feel free to ask questions or just explore.” That would fit well with my personality type.

      That said, most places I’ve started with just hitting the ground running. I just have to start doing my job, and I learn things along the way and get surprised by random things I don’t know or random procedures I’m not familiar with.

    2. Yorick*

      I think the biggest thing is to have everything ready for them. It’s the worst when you come in for your first day and there’s no computer and you have no login because none of the paperwork has been processed and you just sit there looking at the wall for 8 hours.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Following on from that, making sure they have stuff do to moving forward is good too. My husband found himself newly hired shortly before a major data entry week (in his field data entry comes in spurts), and because he hadn’t been trained on that yet, he had a week about 3 weeks into his brand new job where he got paid to sit and doodle for 8 hours a day while everyone else was hard at work with no time to train him. Not a very auspicious beginning.

  105. Leaving BUT omg*

    I’m finished my terrible job next week and it’s like I can suddenly see that all the problems I had were caused by my department manager.

    She has two managers in my department but refuses to use them instead choosing to directly manage the 15 person team. She loves the guy who bullies everyone and she even striped the role and responsibilities of the manager who was on parental leave (for only 2 months)!

    After talking to her about how she got her job it seems like the only reason she got this position was because she was the only person doing her job when she got promoted and it pretty just snowballed from there.

    So glad to leave.

  106. T3k*

    So I’m job searching again because my contract is running out very soon. Apparently the one in charge made this position a permanent, 6-month revolving door type so no hope of extending it. My main boss has been really helpful with boosting up my resume and sending me links to similar jobs in the industry. The problem is, while this is a prestigious company and well known within the industry, I don’t think 6 months experience is really going to make me stand out when I apply for ones that require 3 or more years, and this is my only experience so far in the industry. And the recruiter here is very busy and takes a week to respond to my messages, even when I message them by Hangouts about a posting in a different department. While they said they’d get back to me with updates, should I just go ahead and apply through the site again?

    1. T3k*

      Whoops, to make it more clear: I only expressed interest about the job opening to the recruiter here, I didn’t submit an actual application yet.

  107. DivineMissL*

    Looking for opinions…
    My 14-year-old son is filling out his first summer job application (which happens to be at my employer, but not my department). He has TERRIBLE handwriting. Should he fill it out by hand anyway, even though it will be hard to read; or should he scan it as a PDF and type the responses in text boxes? He’s also attaching a resume. I don’t want to fill it out for him because he has to learn how to handle these things on his own and that’s too helicopter-ish. Thoughts?

      1. Elizabeth H.*

        I would absolutely not ask. Can you have him fill it out but check the handwriting? Or have him like copy it over multiple times? I have terrible handwriting left to my own devices, but I can write neatly when I concentrate on it.

        1. Artemesia*

          Most people can print legibly even when they, like I, have terrible handwriting. But if he can do it as a PDF, why not?

    2. I Love JavaScript*

      Not a fix for the immediate issue, but he needs to learn how to write things legibly. It’s going to really hold him back in high school and college if his teachers/TAs/professors can’t read his answers on exams. There are some really great handwriting practice books out there–one I’ve seen recommended a lot is Write Now: The Complete Program For Better Handwriting. Unless he’s got a learning disability that’s causing the bad handwriting and he’s able to get an accommodation, he’s not gong to always be allowed to type things up for class and so he’s going to need to be able to write legibly.

      1. T3k*

        Not to be the spoiler here, but I was asked/allowed to type up test essays because, while my handwriting isn’t illegible, it’s really small and hard to read for the older professors (younger ones tend to have no problems). This only happened a couple times, as the only times we had to actually write by hand an essay was usually for tests.

      2. Thlayli*

        If he’s capable of learning best handwriting then yes I think he should. However if his handwriting is this bad at age 14 I’m assuming it’s for a reason. A relative of mine has a disability that causes his hands to shake constantly – only a small amount so you wouldn’t notice to look at him – but his handwriting is like an 8 year old’s. No amount of concentration will make it better.

        Either way I think getting better handwriting in a day is unlikely, so I think typing would be better.

        1. I Love JavaScript*

          You’d be surprised how many people have bad handwriting just because they don’t care or haven’t bothered to practice. I used to be an Executive Assistant and the guys I worked for had handwriting that was barely legible (at the best of times). None of them had disabilities, they just hadn’t had a reason to get better.

          If the OP’s son does have a disability, then it’s obviously a different conversation. Most schools will let you type things that typically have to be handwritten as part of your accommodation, which is why I mentioned it above. But if your handwriting is just bad? You’re typically SOL and don’t get to type everything up.

          1. Observer*

            You don’t know why the people you worked for had bad handwriting. You don’t have to have a diagnosed disability for handwriting to be a problem. And keep in mind that while the guys you worked for didn’t need to be able to write at THAT POINT OF THEIR LIVES, that probably wasn’t true when they were in school and early in their careers.

            What you would be surprised at is how many people actually DO have significant trouble with their handwriting even though they are not lazy and careless.

      3. Observer*

        Firstly, you are wrong that he won’t be allowed to type things. It’s possible that some teachers won’t let him type, but plenty will. It depends on the school and the teacher.

        Also, the assumption that anyone can develop a decent handwriting is simply not the case. There are a lot of reasons for it. Sure, it’s preferable to have the ability to at least print legibly, but “just get a handwriting book” is not necessarily going to work.

    3. Salyan*

      He’s likely going to have to fill out all the new hire paperwork by hand. I’d take it as an opportunity to teach him tips on improving that handwriting – maybe by slowing down? I have horrible handwriting, but if I slow down to 10% of my usual writing speed, it becomes legible and not completely horrible.

    4. crying at work is fun!*

      Have him fill it out by hand, but use capital letters or take very care to write slowly. That’s if they for sure want paper resumes. If they also post online, apply online.

      1. DivineMissL*

        Thanks for all the input, the majority seem to think that he should fill it out by hand (although I like the idea for for him to print carefully). He knows he has bad handwriting, maybe this will give hin a reason to practice!

          1. Kerr*

            Applications should ideally be filled out in print or block letters, not cursive, so he shouldn’t have to worry about his cursive. Printing is easier to read and input into a system.
            FWIW I have decent penmanship and my applications still look like (legible) drunken scrawls. His biggest problem may be fitting it into the tiny space allotted on most forms.

  108. Decima Dewey*

    I finally got my performance review on Monday. I’m happy about it because I got a great review (focusing particularly on my willingness to be acting branch manager, when I don’t want to be a full branch manager in the first place) and because I can now tell my staff that when Crazy Ex-Boss calls, they should just take a message and I’ll get back to her. (Or not.) On the other hand, the process for promoting people so that I can stop being an acting branch manager has stalled again. No shocker there.

    A couple weeks ago all three of my full-time circulation assistants called out sick, and when I was locking up the branch last Friday my branch master key got stuck in the door (guard got it out again). Other people have been dealing with a possible kidnapping at another branch. Never dull at the library!

  109. Not Me*

    I don’t have a good manager (well, she’s good but has too many direct reports) and she can’t give me what I need for a consistent work flow: project managment/product management/etc.

    So things are either on fire and must be fixed now! or the deadline is so far in the future and the project isn’t mapped out/tasked out/etc that it’s hard to actually work on it since the project seems overwhelming and the deadline is so far in the future so what does it matter.

    I’ve asked for project management for a year now; does anyone know good scripts to get through to her that this is something I NEED? She seems to think she can do it all and then… doesn’t. I’ve kinda given up. I’ve told her I need structure but I can’t figure out how to phrase it so that it doesn’t seem like I’m asking her to hold my hand. I just want a task list with accountability dammit.

    1. ainomiaka*

      can you take on more of this project management/task lists? It seems like a good way to grow in your job. It might be easier to try and set up a meeting together to do this project management once than asking her for short tasks every time you complete one.

      1. Not Me*

        I tried to. I failed on it so hard. I’m so bad at creating structure for myself it’s not even funny. It’s also not something I’m interested in at all. I just want to code interesting things and be the SME for our department. If I took on this work I’d quit my job because it would turn into something I didn’t like.

    2. Freya*

      I don’t know how realistic this is – is it your manager’s job to make your to-do list for you?

      1. Not Me*

        I see in a different part of our org that they get things like stories and a tfs board and a person who is in charge to make sure everything’s on track and that the deadlines aren’t impossible.

        Right now our process flow is something like “I dunno put it on the tfs board and hope” and the board never gets cleaned up and half the stories don’t have the info (it’s getting better) and it just… I don’t know what I need but I need more structure somehow somewhere.

  110. Lucia*

    Hi! Long time reader, first time commenter. To make it short – I’ve seen the advice here that there is questionable value in paying for professional resume writing, as many are not worth the price. Is there anyone out there who has found a service they’re happy with? The person looking is primarily in engineering/tech. He has tried all the standard advice but thinks he is not implementing it correctly and needs help doing so. (He’s already tried having friends help, several times, with no success). Thanks for any suggestions!

    1. ainomiaka*

      If this person is a member of a professional association some of them offer resume/job seeking help that seems to have been better (my experience is with American Chemical Society). At least these are people in your field.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think unless your résumé is just horribly put together, it’s probably fine and doesn’t need some kind of professional makeover.

      When I’ve been looking at candidates (at least flipping through résumés to see which ones should get an initial phone screen), I’m honestly just looking for experience. What have you done? How long have you been at which places and what were your responsibilities?

      Yeah, if you have excessive typos, disgustingly over-the-type gaudy fonts, and a meaningless full page list of “skills,” I’ll probably throw your résumé away.

      Sure, it’s cool if you can list actual quantifiable accomplishments and not just responsibilities, but I don’t write off candidates who have only responsibilities lists, because those give me a sense of the scope of the job. If the candidate’s experience is relevant enough, I can ask follow-up questions in the interview to see what the candidate actually did accomplishment-wise.

    3. Irene Adler*

      Some ideas:

      I had my resume “polished” when I applied to a job at an employment agency. This was a science-tech related agency. I applied for a Quality Assurance job. They felt my experience matched what their client was looking for. The recruiter there did a nice job with emphasizing my skills/experience. The client responded favorably to the resume. Funny thing: I had applied for the job directly to the client many months ago with the “unpolished” resume and never heard from them. Then when they engaged this recruiter, they really liked the “polished” resume.

      Also, any professional resume writers you engage should have in-depth knowledge of the engineering field you are working in. They will understand the jargon used in the industry.

    4. Librarygal30*

      I used my local public library, since they have lots of online job searching tools. I uploaded my resume, got lots of feedback/corrections, made those, re-submitted it, and then used my new resume for the interview that landed me my current role.

  111. C Average*

    Does anyone have any suggestions for improving one’s ability to understand people with heavy foreign accents?

    I encounter a number of customers of various ethnic backgrounds in my retail day job, and I also interview artists with thick accents for one of my writing jobs. I have the hardest time understanding them sometimes! I’m hours into trying to transcribe quotes from an interview I did with an artist earlier in the week, and I am having a near-impossible time understanding a word they’re saying.

    (And I feel like a real jerk saying this, because I speak only English. I so admire people who take the time and do the work of learning a new language, and these people’s proficiency is actually really impressive. They’re just hard for me to understand.)

    1. Oranges*

      I have this also. I can at least say that I had an ear issue as a child and therefore it can be harder for me to understand people. I do this since there are a lot of negative social stories about “learning English” and I find it circumvents the knee jerk reaction some people can have when I’m asking them for the nth time what it was they said.

      For the artists: is there a way you can send them the transcript with the parts you’re unsure of highlighted so they can check it?

      For retail: I used to tell them what I thought they said Eg: “You want a stool parrot” and usually that would help since then they’d know exactly what words I didn’t understand.

      Good luck!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Only here to commiserate. I have the same issue. I feel horrible about saying “What?” or “Can you repeat that?” three or four times and then still not understanding. Most of the time I just pretend I understood what they said. It’s very frustrating, and this has happened to me in both professional and personal situations. My spouse, on the other hand, is excellent with understanding strong accents.

      Honestly, I’m so bad that sometimes I can’t even understand native English speakers who just have strong regional accents that aren’t my region!

    3. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      I have similar problems. One coworker is in London, another in Ireland, and I can only understand 2/3 of what the guy in Ireland says. In the past, I’ve found that practice does help, but there are certain accents I have a much harder time with. Indian for one. No idea why.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Indian is easy for me, like with CSRs, but the bigger problem is if they’re overseas the connection is usually awful and I can’t HEAR them. I’m good with most UK accents, but dialects sometimes throw me.

      2. TL -*

        I’m usually really good with Indian accents (lots of practice) but I have a classmate who speaks incredibly quickly and has a very thick accent and I have to really concentrate to understand him. (I think multiple people have started asking him to repeat and he’s starting to speak a little more slowly.)

        I find Kiwis very hard to understand. They mumble all the time and I end up just nodding and smiling.

    4. I Love JavaScript*

      Practice is really the only way to get better. If you can find a way to practice when you’re not on the clock, so to speak, then it’s going to be easier to do later when you are. Pick a couple of the most common accents you run across and work on those first.

      1. Future Analyst*

        This. I work in immigration law, and over time your brain gets better at putting together what is being said. In the meantime, “sorry, can you repeat that?” and “what was the last part?” gets repeated A LOT.

    5. HannahS*

      The only way is to practice. Are there certain accents you encounter again and again? See if you can find youtube videos–whatever you like, like comedy, cooking shows, interviews, etc. There’s even a function on youtube to slow down videos. If you grew up in an environment where everyone sounded like you, then it might take a while to acquire the skill of hearing words you know pronounced a different way and recognizing them. But you’ll certainly improve.

    6. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

      I think there was actually a question about that on this blog a while back…I would try watching movies/listening to recordings of people with accents different than yours. It sounds weird, but I think it might help!

    7. AeroEngineer*

      Yep, practice is the only way. Just listen to recordings or watch movies or youtube etc.

      I learned German with a bunch of Japanese people in my class, and since I did, I later had absolutely no problem understanding this 70 year old japanese guy when he spoke German (or other non-native speakers). Multiple native German speakers admitted they couldn’t understand him at all.

    8. Jean (just Jean)*

      I agree with the other commenters that practice makes a difference. It was a great idea to suggest looking for audio/video of non-native English speakers on YouTube (etc.). You might also try to analyze why different types of accents are so hard to decipher. Sometimes I have had difficulty not in interpreting a different pronunciation but in following a speech rhythm that echoes the rhythm of the speaker’s original language. A variation of this occurs when the speaker pronounces words correctly but rearranges the syllable emphasis.

      I share your discomfort with this situation especially as I too am an American stuck speaking English only!

    9. Mimmy*

      I have a great deal of difficulty with this as well. Some of my students and some of the staff have heavy foreign accents, and it’s so frustrating when I can’t understand them, even with asking them to repeat what they said a hundred times. It does not help that I also have a hearing impairment and some processing difficulties.

    10. Reba*

      For the transcripts, can you get a assistant who speaks the artists’ native language, or someone to just check in with (i.e. “can you take a quick listen to this and tell me what you think was said?”) as you work? Slowing the tape down slightly can also help. It’s just hard.

    11. Jillociraptor*

      Have you ever learned the phonetic alphabet? I took voice lessons for about a decade and learned the phonetic alphabet, as well as got lots of experience thinking and talking about how different sounds and phonemes are produced throughout the whole vocal structure. That makes it a lot easier to both produce phonemes in another language that we don’t have in English, and also start to see patterns in accents that helps me decode. For example, once you can piece together that the person’s accent doesn’t have the “eh-ee” dipthong, like in the word “day,” but just pronounces the “eh” half of it, you can merge the sounds in your brain and understand better. Being able to tease apart how you translate the sounds you hear into intelligible words (i.e. by having the “vocabulary” of the phonetic alphabet) is a good starting place for being able to do that.

      It might also be helpful just to start by noticing any patterns in the person’s accent for words you do understand. My grandparents had very heavy Norwegian accents, including difficulty with the combination “thr,” like in three or thrive. Knowing that as a general rule meant that if I couldn’t tease out what they were saying and it sounded like “tr,” I might try adding an H in there to see if it made a word that made more sense. If there is a relatively finite number of native languages you’re working with, you could familiarize yourself a little bit with the linguistics of the native language to see where there might be differences. Probably not practical if there’s no real pattern in what you’re likely to see, though.

    12. Anonymous Ampersand*

      This is not exactly the same, and not helpful, but a good few years ago now I overheard a conversation between someone in my office with a strong Northern accent talking to someone in London. They could not understand each other. It was hilarious.

    13. Anono-me*

      I find it helpful to block out as many distractions as I can.

      For example if I am on the phone, I will literally close my eyes and cover my other ear.

      In person, I will face the person directly
      And put one hand up to my temple on the side away where there is the most going on.

      Also please keep in mind that sometimes even people who are very fluent language get a word or two wrong.

      1. Aria is Not My Name*

        I do this as well. I also, in addition to asking them to repeat it, ask them to repeat it more slowly, and that seems to help mitigate the number of times I have to ask them to repeat it.

  112. Allison*

    Does anyone else sometimes feel guilty for staying home due to illness? I came down with my cold last week, took a sick day, worked from home on Monday, and tried to resume my normal life but my boss sent me home yesterday after hearing how bad my cough still is. So I know she’s okay with me working from home today, which is what matters, and I know I need the rest, but I still feel anxious and weird about it because:

    – growing up I was often dismissed or second guessed when I had a cold. “Are you sure you’re sick?” “Do you really need to stay home?” “It’s just a cold, that’s no reason to miss school.” “You know, sometimes you have to suck it up.” So now I worry that people think I’m faking, exaggerating, or just being a big baby.

    – I’ve encountered plenty of workplace martyrs in my day, the ones who are definitely sick and are told to go home, but insist they can’t, because they have so much work to do. Last week, one of my colleagues was sick but felt like she had to suck it up, and she’s absolutely the type to say “she’s out?? well I’m sick too, but I have to be here, the damn place would fall apart without me, I don’t get to be sick until the weekend . . .” I feel bad that I “get to” take a sick day when I need one, but others supposedly can’t.

    Please tell me I’m not the only one who feels this way.

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      God, no.

      If I can sit upright, I feel guilty for staying home.

      (I also feel guilty for staying home when I cannot physically get my car out of the parking lot due to snow and end up working from home…)

      1. Allison*

        When I was in high school, my mom told me “if you can sit up at the computer, you’re well enough to go to school.” I don’t know if she was trying to get me to suck it up, or if she was worried about me faking so I goof off on Gaia all day. So naturally, I just didn’t use the computer when I was sick.

    2. ainomiaka*

      you aren’t the only one. I don’t have much good advice, other than my coworker has been coughing for something like 3-4 weeks and I hate that more. so you can frame it as you are doing the less bad thing by staying home.

    3. BioPharma*

      Yes I feel guilty as well… but then I remember HOW ANNOYED I get when I’m at work and someone’s coughing or sneezing, spreading all their germs and potentially getting me sick!!! Grrrrrr.

      1. Allison*

        Truth, I was so mad at the helpdesk guy who was walking around going “nooo I can’t go home, people need me!” No, people need to stay healthy, let your manager figure it out! But then I probably spread my germs this week trying to go back to my normal life prematurely. I guess it’s not that simple sometimes.

      2. AeroEngineer*

        Yes, this. I am so happy that my current supervisor and boss are like “get out of here!” when people are sick, as I feel crazy guilty about it.

        I had a 6 month traineeship where I was sick for half of it as people (especially the secretary sitting directly behind me) kept coming in while sick (either the beginning or the end of the illness, but still obviously contagious). I think I caught every single thing going around that year and was pretty miserable as I had the workload of a normal employee, and now I just think about that when I feel any sort of guilt.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      When I was teaching, yes. I felt very guilty. In fact, I usually didn’t stay at home at all but would just go in sick and tell the kids to stay away from me.

      After I started doing office work? Absolutely no qualms about staying home sick.

    5. Temperance*

      The family rule when I was a kid that you had to have a fever or throw up. So in my brain, if I’m not throwing up and don’t have a high fever (over 101), I should go to work. Stupid!

    7. Rookie Manager*

      My mum never let us stay home sick without lots of evidence; “if you’re that sick the school will send you home!” More than once I threw up on my way to school… I’ve got over the guilt though as I know my body and know if I can push through or doing so will make me worse for longer. Larkin had a good point!

    8. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      90% of the sick days I take are mental illness ones and since I’m not about to say “my depression and my anxiety have teamed up and stomped on my head,” I always say “allergies” or “migraine” or maybe a cold. Then I feel guilty for lying, too!

    9. Kuododi*

      Not a bit….. I learned a long time ago that noone is indispensable and the work place functioned before I came….will function after I leave and therefore if I need a day or two to recover from the snotty miserable then I will take it and get on with life. Additionally, my colleagues really don’t want me sharing the grossness!!! Guilt is either useful or useless. Useful guilt tells us we have done something to injure another and it is necessary to make amends where appropriate….. useless guilt is everything else and is a waste of time causing headaches, lower back pain and gastric upset…..good luck!!!

  113. a-no*

    So after a solid 6+ months of searching for another job while working at my one I’m under-employed at – I had three interviews this week.
    This morning I found out job #2 (the one I want the most) has called my references this morning! I am both so excited but also feeling more guilty as I really do like my direct boss and I hated lying to go to these interviews.
    My question is – how do you get over the guilt?? What did you tell yourself to get rid of the feeling like your commuting some sort of betrayal to where you currently work?

    1. crying at work is fun!*

      In terms of guilt, remind yourself that you’re fulfilling your end of the bargain. You’ve worked for them, but you don’t owe them the rest of your life, and you’re under-employed, so you’d like to do something else. And it’s totally okay to want to do something else! Your agreement with your job is that you would give them your best. And now you’re hopefully moving on. It’s a normal part of life and a normal part of business.

    2. Artemesia*

      This guilt thing seems to be baked into women; I have never met a man who felt guilty for growing his career and moving up in the world. (I am sure there is one somewhere, but it is so common for women who are raised to sacrifice their own interests) They would lay you off in a minute if it were in their interests to do so; always make professional choices in your own interest. There is no ‘guilt’ in that; there is no wrongdoing in that.

      1. a-no*

        Yeah, I could see that being true.
        I think a lot of the issue is this is the first professional job I may be quitting (various contract gigs & 1 lay off – I’ve always been unemployed or expected to be looking for my next contract/job, I’ve quit many a retail job though) but it’s just so awkward when my co-workers/boss ask how my appointment went and if I’m feeling better/okay and I’m just over here thinking “yeah, that interview actually went pretty well I believe”

  114. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    Any advice on how to pitch working remotely long-distance to your employer? My partner and I are planning a cross-country move in the fall for her grad school and it would be immeasurably easier if I could keep my job, rather than finding a new one. I already work from home 3-4 days per week, but I also travel around my state (quarterly) to attend required meetings. I think it would be no problem at all for my boss if I moved somewhere else in my state, but moving to another state (or possibly across the country + 3 time zones) might be a hard sell/no go. My company is in many states nationwide, but I work for a state-specific subsidiary. I’m not sure if there are other reasons that I couldn’t work from another state (maybe tax reasons if there’s no company presence in the state we move to?).

    I’d love advice from anyone who has successfully convinced their boss that it’s better to have a far-away employee than to lose me altogether. I’m a high performer and the role is somewhat niche, so hard to fill. However, I’m probably also on the higher-paid side for my role and they could probably get away with hiring someone less qualified, if I’m being totally honest.

    1. crying at work is fun!*

      At my old place, there were many people who did this and they were able to stay in the org. They just moved into positions that didn’t require regular local travel for in-person meetings. Is there a position like that you could move into that doesn’t have the quarterly meetings? As for time zones, either you’d work in the time zone you’re in, or the time zone the office is in. We mostly had people work in the office time zone, but there were definitely times when having someone able to be there later, without anyone one in the home office working our-nights, that was good. Time zones could be helpful to provide an additional service to your company.

      1. crying at work is fun!*

        (or early morning hours, if I’ve gotten the cross-country move backwards)

        1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

          Yeah–I’d have to get the time zone thing worked out–I’m on the west coast and if we end up moving to the east coast I’d be miserable with an 11am-8pm schedule! I’m already an early riser and would work 7-4 if I thought it was a reasonable request.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I did this when we left the state for my partner’s PhD. At the time, I was an east coast-based employee for a west coast company, and my time zone didn’t change. I also didn’t see clients that often. It was a pretty easy sell to my boss, but the CEO hated the idea. It was a terribly boring job anyway, and I resigned about four months after our move.

      Your role and your state-wide meetings are a huge wrinkle here. If they truly need you to attend these meetings in person, then you may have to be prepared to handle some of the costs yourself, or at least to offer (if you’re not based in CA, that is). Can you look into a transfer to a different state?

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        I am based in CA, which makes this tricky for multiple reasons. I believe that I can’t offer to take on part of the cost of travel due to CA laws. Also part of what makes my role unique is that it is a position that is required (by regulators) in CA, but a position analogous to mine doesn’t exist in any of the other states. I’m definitely on the hunt for true remote positions at my company, but there are few I’ve found that are a good fit for my skills. I’m thinking about asking if one of my coworkers from my department could attend my quarterly meetings in person and that I can call in for them. Unfortunately though that puts a bunch of travel burden on someone else, which doesn’t seem all that fair.

    3. Specialk9*

      Most people who work remotely at my company did what you want to do: establish themselves, then transition to remote. We don’t do many remote positions from the get-go. So make a document laying out the details of how it would work. Include details on how you will provide status reports or check in daily/weekly, so they will know you’re working when if they can’t see you. Reassure them subtly that you won’t be creating more work for them, and can be trusted.

  115. Jeminy*

    I’m working on getting my first office job out of college. I’ve never had an internship and instead work full-time in the most casual environment you could imagine – think hippie/spiritualist. My coworkers are lovely but very, very eccentric (my boss changes her name every three days because she doesn’t want her soul “weighed down by the limits of a tangible identity”) and after browsing through the archives here, I’m starting to worry about how I’m going to adjust to a professional environment, especially as my field of interest is pretty conservative.

    So, does anyone have any tips for a first-time professional? Things you wish you could sit interns/entry-levels down and tell them before you have to work with them? Things you had to learn the hard way? Things that aren’t really important enough to make a big deal over but omg why doesn’t everyone know this? And so forth.

    Any and all help would be very appreciated, thank you.

    1. Gloucesterina*

      I got this advice as a student for working effectively with an academic advisor, but think it applies to professional settings as well: either in the interview or on your first day have a talk with your potential or actual supervisor about how and how often they expect you to communicate with them about your work. E.g. do they expect do an in-person daily check-in? A daily check-in email or 2-minute phone call? A weekly check-in and in what format? Do their expectations vary based on other factors (e.g. if there are seasonally super busy times in your organization). In your role, what types of information is useful for you to provide in a check-in?

      You might also consider suggest framing the above discussion as “what are your expectations” or “what is the typical practice” for communicating about work in progress/work completed rather than “what do you want me to do” since it signals that you are thinking more broadly about learning about the organization/particular profession as opposed to just meeting that single advisor or supervisor’s wants or needs.

      1. Jeminy*

        Ohh, thanks so much! That’s exactly the kind of advice I was looking for – something I’ll obviously need to know but would never think to ask about – and I especially appreciate the wording advice! Thanks, Gloucesterina!

    2. KayEss*

      “my boss changes her name every three days because she doesn’t want her soul ‘weighed down by the limits of a tangible identity'”

      Good lord, you must have some amazing stories about that place. I neeeeeeed to know more.

      1. Jeminy*

        lol, so many – I could keep you here for weeks. :)

        The one thing that tends to crack people up the most is the reason I, non-hippie, non-spiritualist, hopeful-future-accountant that I am, was hired: they needed someone who was a little more “tied to the concerns of the physical plane” because all the other employees were “too in-tune with astral presences” and it was affecting the bottom line. Basically, they were arbitrarily increasing or decreasing selling prices (sometimes even to the point of literally giving away hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise) based on, idk, customer’s auras or something like that. So the owner (who was just as guilty as all the rest) needed a cashier who would just sell things at sticker price!

        Like I said, lovely people but very eccentric. :)

        1. KayEss*

          This sounds like the premise for a TV show I would watch religiously. Five crystal hippies running a business hire a down-to-earth (possibly too-serious?) accountant to help them figure out why it’s not going well, hilarity, life lessons, and unlikely friendship ensue.

          Seriously, pitch this to Netflix STAT.

          1. Jeminy*

            It could work! I don’t know that I’d watch it (too much chance of work-related trauma, lol), but I could totally see that landing well. I should send an email or something ;)

    3. Specialk9*

      Ask A Manager just started selling a book with all of that. Check out the top of the page. It’s exactly what you’re looking for, like exactly.

      Also, she changes her name every 3 days? That’s … Special and awesome.

  116. BioPharma*

    Should I avoid becoming “friends” with members of my team? (i.e., “hey whatcha doing for lunch today” level). I don’t mean preferential treatment towards one, but just in general. On a personal relationship level, maybe it’s best to keep it a manager-direct report relationship. On a company-wide level, maybe it’s better to be “friends” with those of the same level for optics (I already look on the younger side and want to be taken more seriously and as a manager/leader).

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You’re the manager of these people? Yes, avoid becoming friends with them or even “friends.” Be polite, cordial, and friendly. But there isn’t even a reason really to ask what they’re doing for lunch.

    2. Thlayli*

      Be friendly to everyone anyway, but that doesn’t mean you have to be friends.

      Definitely don’t try to be friends with people you manage. Being friends with people on your own level is fine.

  117. The Original Flavored K*

    So, I’m currently studying for (assuming I get accepted into the program) a BSN so that I can get an RN license. Has anybody else made the transition from med finance/clerical to clinical? I understand it’s a heavy course load, but tbh I’m most worried about being able to find a practicum in my tiny NM town. Am I crazy to be borrowing 2020’s troubles today? Did anybody else find the transition nerve wracking??

    1. Hellanon*

      Shouldn’t your school arrange the practicum & any required clinical placements? You might ask about that – even prior to acceptance they should be more than willing to make sure applicants have that info.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Yes, your school should be lining up your practicums and clinicals. At a minimum, they should be giving you guidance on how to do so. As a nurse in the US, I would wonder about the quality of a school that did not give you clinicals with a clinical instructor employed by the school. Is this an accredited school?

        1. ..Kat..*

          Some questions for you to research before you commit a large amount of time, energy and money to this school:
          1. How many students successfully graduate from this program? What percentage graduate?
          2. Of the students who graduate, what percentage earn their RN license?
          3. Of the students who graduate, what percentage go on to work as nurses? And what kind of jobs do they work in? Are these jobs that interest you?

          Reputable schools have these numbers readily available.

  118. ainomiaka*

    Back to needing help managing noticing a bunch of details simultaneously. I’m not making huge mistakes, but stuff has to be done again. and I hate it. I have started doing only one thing at once, but there’s enough lag time that I feel both guilty and bored. But the only advice I see is “double check everything”-I do, and this helps me find stuff instead of my supervisor which is good, but doesn’t help the issue. Any advice getting checklists that work while process is in flow? other ideas? If I do the “mistakes aren’t okay” it just gets more anxiety which leads to more freaking out and missing things first pass. So I have to diffuse the anxiety while still not having mistakes be okay.

  119. Jessi*

    What responsibility does your boss/ employer have to let you know what is happening to your job?

    I am getting very close to my current visa running out, and while I would like to stay in my current position and renew with my job/visa, I’m getting to the point where I just want to know what’s happening so I can plan my life!

      2. Jessi*

        The problem is that I don’t think she knows. Lets say my job is contingent on a contract and we don’t know if we have the contract or not.

        I guess a better question would have been: ethically, how long should I wait before I go looking for something new?

        1. PX*

          Start now! Give your boss a heads up, but any reasonable person understands that visa issues are kind of more important, so if they cant guarantee you a job then you will obviously be looking.

  120. saradactyl*

    Does anyone have any tips for how to make my call center experience more accomplishment-based on my resume? It’s my first real job out of college and I desperately need a new one, but my job is one of those that don’t really lend to measurable achievements or innovation in a role; I come to work and take calls and go home. Also, since I’m in an inbound role, I almost never hear about the results of the calls I take because I’ll speak to someone when they call and won’t hear from them ever again unless I get them if they just happen to call back. I’m really struggling with this and it’s starting to have an effect on self-esteem stuff that I already have problems with in the first place, so any advice is helpful.

    1. Yorick*

      Do you have a sense of whether you take more calls than others, or resolve the call/transfer them to the right person more quickly?

      Do you assist coworkers with their calls, or help train new employees, or work together with coworkers to streamline processes (e.g., “we’re getting lots of calls about x recently, let’s respond by doing y”)

      If you have callers who are reporting issues, you may not know if the issue was resolved but do you feel you helped ease their frustration or otherwise made them feel better about the situation?

      Basically, what are you doing that makes you a good call center employee?

      1. saradactyl*

        1) I know my aftercall work time is several minutes lower than the average or target time we’re supposed to hit, but I have no idea what mine is in relation to other reps in my role.

        2) I don’t train or help my coworkers much more than maybe a comment or suggestion between calls or during calls about a way to handle something, and unfortunately there’s not really much in my role I can do to streamline or change any processes. My expectations and targets are set by the upper managers and we basically do what they say we should do – I don’t have much freedom at all beyond the constraints of my role. It’s very demoralizing, actually.

        3) We’re a healthcare nonprofit working with cancer patients. Sometimes I do get the sense that I’ve helped someone, but a lot of times there’s just not much I can do for them because of their illness or general situation. I can’t say whether or not one happens more often than the other; it’s probably pretty even? What I wish the upper managers would do is keep track of other metrics for the calls we take like how many programs we’ve organized for patients or how many helpful referrals we’ve made, but they don’t, otherwise I’d definitely use those numbers. My metrics are a mixed bag of some arbitrary things like “how pleasant my voice sounded” and some target-based stuff like how often I attempted to make a new record or gathered an address.

  121. Can't Sit Still*

    I received my comp letter last week. I was expecting the usual two sentence letter about my new annual salary, and thank you for all your work in the past year. Instead, I got a page full of charts and graphs, with footnotes, spelling everything out in detail, which ends up meaning that, in 2018, I will make 50% more in total compensation than I did in 2016. And I haven’t even been here a year yet. My boss told me not to worry, next year will be much better. LOL! It took me the whole weekend to grasp everything.

    I am not sure if I have been drastically underpaid for years, if it was finally finishing my bachelor degree, how long salaries were depressed, or a combination of all three. At any rate, my chronic, middle-of-the-night anxiety about money is gone, and I will finally be able to start paying down some debt instead of just treading water financially.

    2. copier queen*

      Good for you!! DH and I are finally making decent money and are at a more solid place financially – and we’re using Dave Ramsey’s guidance to help us make good financial choices. Highly recommend his daily podcast/radio show/You Tube videos.

  122. WorkTravellin'*

    We have a less-than-desirable work trip coming up and my senior coworkers are slowly dropping out. I’m still a junior but I have a feeling I’m going to get asked to go. Is there a way to negotiate better circumstances, or to use this at my yearly review to ask for more $$$ ?

    1. BC Enviro Gal*

      I can’t see how being asked to go on a work trip will allow you to negotiate a raise or any other perks. I wouldn’t recommend pursuing that strategy. Even framing it as “the rest of the team dropped out, but I stepped up” won’t get you far, and may even backfire. Some parts of the job are less pleasant, and sometimes they get foisted on juniors. This isn’t you going above and beyond for the team. It’s just a part of the job.

      1. WorkTravellin'*

        The thing is I’m basically an admin assistant who’s been given more tasks outside of my job description – which I’ve accepted gladly and have been told I’m doing a good job. Is it fair to say that since I’m doing more I should get paid more and have a job title that actually reflects my responsibilities? This is my first job out of college.

        1. Yorick*

          If you’ve grown to do more complex work than is in your job description, you can possibly say that your value to the company is higher than your pay reflects.

          And if you go on the work trip and do a good job, it’s something that maybe should be reflected in your review, but it probably isn’t enough to get a raise and promotion.

          1. BC Enviro Gal*

            +1
            If you’re doing more than your original job, then you certainly can approach your boss to discuss this. “Hey, I was originally hired to do X, but now I’ve taken on A, B, and C, which I’m very happy to do, and I’m enjoying these tasks. Could we talk about changing my job title to reflect my responsibilities?” As for a raise, you absolutely can bring up these new responsibilities as long as you’ve been at them for a while (say, 6 months?) and have been relatively successful at them. Alison has a lot of posts on how to ask for a raise, which I recommend you go check out.

            Also know that a job description doesn’t equal the job in practice. If you talk to your boss and they tell you that this is a part of this job, then that’s probably your answer.

  123. SpaceOddity*

    Question for the hivemind!

    I’m the Communications Manager at a church in the downtown area of a city. For years, this church has hosted several lunch series. These events are an hour in duration, though folks could leave early. and occur in weekly series, shortest of which is 5. The church leaders are frustrated by a decline in attendance. The volunteers/committee chairs are all retirees, and they put a lot of work into these events, framing these as a ministry to the downtown population of our city.

    I’d like to offer them some context about changes in work culture that may affect the attendance.

    From what I hear, the heyday for these events was when it was less common for women in the church’s historical demographic to work and or for the bulk of the workforce to work in either the nearby large corporations or government offices.

    Also thinking of travel time, people working flexible schedules, and people who may not be comfortable coming into a church.

    I’d be curious to hear what ya’ll think of this kind of thing and would appreciate what could make these more appealing or what stands out as discouraging factors.

    Thank you!

    1. Colette*

      Well, an hour long event means at least 1.5 hours away from work. Since many people eat lunch at their desk, you’ve ruled out a bunch of people right there. And anyone who doesn’t work during the day may have other plans at lunch time (i.e. kids coming home to eat, meeting someone for lunch, etc.). I’m not sure who the target audience is, but that’s where you should start.

      Can you:
      – offer a series at 5 instead of noon?
      – offer a series at 10 a.m. for people who don’t work during the day?
      – offer one-off sessions that don’t require a multi-week commitment?

      Alternatively, since this is supposed to be a ministry to the downtown population, perhaps it’s time to change to something else. (Hosting a meal for the homeless population? Collecting winter clothing for people who need it? Holding community clean up days?)

      1. SpaceOddity*

        This is in addition to other ministries, but it does take up significant volunteer bandwidth! Thank you! Excited to pass these suggestions along.

    2. copier queen*

      Some thoughts —
      Is the subject matter relevant and appealing to churched and non-churched people? Or is it mostly appealing to only people who are already in church, or people of your denomination?
      I bet potential attendees are put off by each series being 5+ parts. Most people don’t want to add another long commitment. They may attend a two or three part series, but not 5+ parts.
      Also, I find that, bless their hearts, the retirees at my church (people who are 62+) have very different ideas about what is appealing subject matter than people who are 20-60.
      Marketing — are you posting fliers about the series in nearby offices, elevators, etc.? Talking with opinion leaders in the offices? Creating events on the church’s Facebook page for people to share or indicate interest?

      1. SpaceOddity*

        It varies! One is a preaching series, one is music, another is justice/policy issues. Yes, all that and then some marketing-wise, but I would like to see more word-of-mouth from folks here. Thank you–I’ll definitely note duration etc as a concern.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      Is your church still located near a bunch of corporations/office buildings? I know my city’s downtown corridor has shifted a bit, which would make a walking commute that much further.

      Maybe consider doing more one-off topics instead of such long series. I can make maybe 2 weeks in a row, but trying to do 5 in a row? No guarantees. And maybe those topics could be more hot button, in-the-now issues.

      Have you tried surveying your participants and seeing what they want? Is it food quality that’s the issue? Are they not liking the speakers/pastors? Is the sound system overbearing? Is it too hot/cold? Are they unclear of where to go when they enter? Are they not being greeted/spoken to at all? Where are you advertising? Most companies have spaces in break rooms for flyers, so maybe you could talk to them to advertise.

      1. SpaceOddity*

        Hmmm, yes, to my eyes downtown has shifted similarly. It’s worth noting that none of the key leaders live in the downtown area around the church, so they might be sticking to an old idea rather than tracking shifts.

        One is hot-button issues, not so much the rest. I hear you on the length–I work there and my schedule doesn’t accommodate going!

        Ooh, I have suggested surveys, but there is more a culture of “So-and-so said we should do X, so we should do that right away.” (So-and-So isn’t in the target audience though?) I think the system is used to running on individual preference rather than structured feedback.

        Thank you!

    4. The Original Flavored K*

      I’m a rather militant apatheist, but here’s what I would suggest: making these events not be lunches. Lunch events are just not accessible to most people during the work week, and I cannot imagine telling my boss that I needed to take a slightly longer lunch for a church event.

      It might be more expensive, but can these events be hosted in the evenings? Possibly not in the church, like somebody’s house, or an affordable restaurant?

      What about focusing more on youth outreach — not just youth groups and VBS, but also mentorship program?

      1. SpaceOddity*

        As a rather militant apatheist, your perspective is particularly valuable–the idea is all of these events are non-proselytizing and would be appealing to you.

        There is…some…of that, but yeah, I think “ministry to the community” should be defined more rigorously.

        Thank you!

    5. saradactyl*

      I’m a millennial churchgoer who divides her time between a college ministry (more actual young adults) and a big downtown church in my city. I work a very rigid hourly schedule and work on the far north side of town – commuting into downtown for a lunchtime lecture would be basically impossible for me. I was actually talking to the priest of the college ministry about this the other night and he talked about how some of the women’s orgs in churches were great groups and did very good work for their communities (like Daughters of the King) but couldn’t seem to figure out that having meetings on Tuesdays at 10 AM meant that you would have almost no young people. He definitely seemed to think it was attributed to contrasting generational perspectives like that.

      1. SpaceOddity*

        EXACTLY! You are the imagined target audience (particularly since it sounds like the same denomination!)

        Also, when Boomer X says “Here’s how we can get more local millennials…” and I say “As a local millennial, I think we should consider x,y,z…” and it goes nowhere….is not my favorite style of conversation.

        Thank you!

    6. MagsM*

      Most places only give at best an hour lunch… maybe change the length to forty minutes ago there’s time before and after for people to get there?
      Do they offer refreshments? If not food, coffee and water, fruit.

    7. Rilara*

      Yeah the fact that it’s at lunch during the week is the problem. Even if you offered food, the only way that it would be feasible for people who can take a hour lunch break (which is the maximum time for lunch that I’ve seen so far) would be if this was 30 minutes.

      When I was working full time, even if something I was doing during lunch was supposed to be brief, I would often end up taking up my entire lunch hour with travel to and from what I was doing.

      Refreshments should definitely be offered if this is taking place during lunch as well.

      1. SpaceOddity*

        Food is either catered or fixed by volunteers. But yeah, travel time is going to be a problem. Thank you! I’m really glad for anecdata on this–when I have brought things like this up, there has been a “well, you eat lunch at your desk, so you don’t get it” response, which, well, not false, but not the whole picture.

    8. crying at work is fun!*

      “Lunch” is the big problem there for me, I just wouldn’t be able to make it, even if I was exactly in your target demographic.

      One thing to consider is offering an internet-version. When my local religious organization was doing some important meetings and stuff, they put it online for those of us who couldn’t make it in person. I really appreciated it. I’ve also been able to virtually-attend funerals that, due to distance, would have been out of the question for me to be there in person.

      I don’t know what your ministry is, but offering an online version in addition to in-person could really help reach your audience.

      1. KayEss*

        Yes, depending on exactly what the topic/format of this series is, but if they are more like lectures or one-way talks, an online version could really set you apart and broaden your reach! Even if it’s not an interactive webinar format, but just a recorded lecture or interview that you put up on YouTube. You could take questions by email or in the video comments and address them in a follow-up video. Unfortunately, that level of technology involvement may put off the volunteer base.

        If the format is more discussion-oriented… you really have to play to specific target audiences. If you’re committed to attracting young professionals, it really has to be after five. Maybe push a kind of “happy hour” format with refreshments, and the lecture/discussion followed by mingling? If the topic is more for retirees, you can do 10AM or 2PM or whatever. But trying to appeal to everyone at lunchtime sounds like it isn’t working, and it’s not going to magically start working.

        (Also I assume the dismay is over an overall drop in attendance, not “we only get half as many people at lecture #5 in a series as we did at lecture #1, panic and calamity!!!11” because that’s… statistically normal.)

        1. SpaceOddity*

          The dismay is both! The overall drop is a factor, but so is “oh, we have this one speaker who packs ’em in, but the rest, not so much.”

          I snorted out coffee at “isn’t working and it is not going to magically start working.”

          The online thing is a question, but yeah, tech literacy is a huge factor. A lot of the folks can’t handle online registration, but they like the idea of streaming everything. I never watch video at work, but I think “make it all a podcast” could be a gamechanger. Thank you!

      2. SpaceOddity*

        I’m really glad you’ve had access to meetings, and oh gosh, particularly funerals that way.

        What are some formats you would recommend?

        Thank you!

    9. Temperance*

      I don’t think many people who are not already churchgoers are going to attend a lunchtime lecture series in a religious institution. I think it’s so dependent on the local culture, though. This might be a norm in the bible belt, but I don’t picture it happening in Philly.

      Speaking as a pretty militant atheist, I feel like any event hosted by a church or at a church is an effort to proselytize. Which may be the goal, but might also be why it’s a challenge to get butts in seats.

      1. SpaceOddity*

        Thank you–yeah, I feel like the church crowd’s assessment on that is not self-aware! The idea is “we’re not proselytizing, anybody can show up! An atheist would be totally comfortable at this!” but that is coming from folks on the inside.

    10. Alton*

      Like others have said, an hour-long lunch event in the middle of a weekday isn’t convenient for many people who work an 8-5 M-F schedule or something equivalent. It can be an issue for multiple reasons: some people don’t take formal, “off-the-clock” lunch breaks, some people have little flexibility because they have to coordinate their shifts with other employees or aren’t always free to take their break when they want, and some people who are hourly or non-exempt might not have much flexibility. An hour-long event will realistically take longer than that since people have to travel to and from the event.

      I also think you should consider your ideal demographic. If people are willing to go to these events during their lunch break, they’re probably more likely to do so if they work close to the church. Retirees might be more likely to have time in the afternoon. How and where are the events advertised? Are the events religious in nature? Are people who belong to the church or denomination more likely to find out about the events and be interested than people who have no connection to the church? If so, what are the church’s demographics like, and would these events be likely to appeal to them?

      As someone who works 8-5, has limited flexibility beyond an hour lunch break, and has limited transportation, a five-week series would be intimidating. I would only go if 1) the event wasn’t a full hour long and 2) I could easily walk between the church and my office and 3) I either didn’t have to attend for the full five weeks or the time commitment felt worth it in terms of what I was getting out of the events. As someone who isn’t Christian, I’d be unlikely to be interested in an event that seemed religious in nature and would probably only go if it was marketed as a secular event that just happens to be organized/held in a church.

      1. SpaceOddity*

        Thank you! I really think a huge factor is not understanding workplace customs, particularly if your lunch breaks are formally or informally regulated/hemmed in by other factors. I’m looking forward to talking with folks about all the factors commenters here are bringing up!

    11. Felicia*

      I think there would be a big jump in attendance just by making this an evening thing. You could try other ways to promote attendance after that, but the fact that it’s lunch during the week will be a barrier to most retirees.

    12. Kathenus*

      Apologies if someone else suggested this already and I missed it, but have you thought about doing a poll/survey to find out from your attendees (current and past) and church members what they would like? This could include topics, time of day, # in a series, duration, etc.

    13. Kerr*

      Lunchtime is probably the biggest obstacle, IMHO. Many workers (especially younger ones) have stricter schedules and, at most, an hour for lunch. An hour-long “lunch” event means 1.5 hours away from work at a minimum. I couldn’t do that except infrequently, and the topic would have to be extremely compelling.

      Also consider that attendees might want to spend time chatting to other attendees – most wouldn’t want to eat and run. That’s an extra 15 minutes right there, and now you’re looking at almost *two hours* away from work. That’s a LOT of time for someone not in the “golf & lunch is part of my job” class.

      For lengthier topics, could they split things into different parts that could be attended independently? I’m sure there’s a lot of valuable information, but it might need to turn bite-sized. A “Part 1” for 2-3 weeks, then a “Part 2”? For me, anything past the 2-session point moves from “interesting, might look at that” to “this is a commitment to a class.”

      1. SpaceOddity*

        Seriously!

        Ooh, I hadn’t thought about that–the informal pressure to stay rather than eat and run.

        Thank you–I’ll definitely also mention the series idea.

  124. medium of ballpoint*

    I need some clothing help, y’all. I’ve hit the trifecta of being fat, short torsoed, and rather blessed up top. I wear a lot of camis/tanks under shirts and dresses for modesty, but it’s hard for me to find tanks that come up high enough and actually do their job. Any recommendation for higher necked camis/tanks? I’ve tried camis from Old Navy and Target that don’t quite do the job. Camis from Lane Bryant work well, but they’re always sold out or only have a few neutral colors. Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      Are you looking online or just in stores? If the latter, start going online–generally there will be a lot better range of choices. You can try shopstyle dot com, searching “high necked tank,” to see what you can find in merchants you didn’t expect. I also find that things labeled “shell” tend to have higher necklines.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Ann Taylor has camis with adjustable straps. They are my go-to for work wear. I’ve collected several dozen over the years in basic neutrals and some brights for punch. (Hit the clearance rack! I’ve gotten them for $2 apiece during sales.) Walmart has adjustable camis too. Walmart can be hit or miss on the quality and colors, and theirs tend to run long in the torso.

      I shorten the straps quite a bit to avoid displaying cleavage. Occasionally this means the side of the cami comes up a little closer to the armpit, but I don’t find it uncomfortable. I also tend to buy camis a size smaller than my usual shirt size, so they fit closer and don’t gap.

      1. Reba*

        AT and Loft always have these in a bunch of colors. They are pretty durable and can sometimes be had with 2 for 20 deals. I wear them almost daily. But I cannot speak to their cleavability.

        There are also one bazillion lacey bandeaus and bralettes on the market these days — would that be a possibility (I’m imagining wearing this in combination with actual structural garments, just for the coverage)?

    3. ToodieCat*

      They aren’t camis, but I sometimes wear the sleeveless shells from CJ Banks for the same purpose because I also like to have more coverage up top. (In high school I once wore a dress for a formal that had a lowish neckline and was told that my cleavage made me look like a Miss Piggy bank. Old memories die hard.)

    4. HannahS*

      Would shortening the straps help? I used to do that in the mid-2000s when it was all about those low cut V-necks with tanks underneath. It’s an easy fix to do on your own with just a needle, thread, and scissors, as long as the straps are akin to bra straps and not integrated into the cloth piece of the tank top. You can look up a tutoial online–if you’ve never sewn before it might seem intimidating, but honestly once you try it a few times you can get it done in about 10 minutes.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      I found camisoles/tanks with adjustable straps on herroom. Good stuff and not terribly pricey.

    6. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Torrid’s camis are a miracle! IME they’re better than Lane Bryant’s — sturdy material, long enough to not roll up, and can adjust to sit high if you need. (I am also large, short-waisted, and pectorally blessed.)

      I also sometimes use a cami plus a lace bandeau for additional modesty.

      1. medium of ballpoint*

        Ooh, I hadn’t thought about a lace bandeau. Any suggestions on where to find them?

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Torrid has great lace bandeaus too. I like them because they actually have straps. They’re not very high cut, but you might try wearing one backwards (the front dips but the back is straight across).

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          I also get my bandeaux at Torrid for maximum color matching! The basic lacy ones can sit pretty high depending on your comfort level and overall bosom dimensions.

    8. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Lands End for higher neck tanks, although they are on the thicker side in terms of material (think thick T-shirt), I’ve also had good luck with Talbots (they have petite plus).

    9. bb-great*

      I wear tanks from Woman Within. And they’ve always got some kind of sale or coupon code going on.

  125. JustAGirlTryingToMakeIt*

    Can my fellow AAM readers help me with a tough situation at work?
    I’ve been at my current job for nine months, most of which has been absolutely awful. My boss was a former manager at an internship I had in college, and I came to work for him because it sounded like a great opportunity, and it has been. I’ve learned a lot. The issue is, I am the only employee under a toxic and verbally abusive boss. He screams and curses at me in front of other colleagues in other departments and quite frankly, I think he enjoys knowing he can humiliate me. He’s extremely stressed and is stretched quite thin, but it’s not an excuse for his behavior towards me. I don’t know what to do or what to say – he scares me when he gets in these moods and I feel like I’m waling on landmines when he actually does come into the office.
    Any advice on how to cope with a demanding and toxic boss situation, readers?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Have you heard the expression “People don’t leave companies; they leave managers”? I wouldn’t cope. I’d leave. Maybe you can’t leave (you didn’t mention any reason in your original description). If you can, definitely leave. Short-term stints (job-hopping) can look bad on your résumé if you have a few in a row, but if you have one 9-month stint, that’s not bad. Start looking for a job right now. A light at the end of the tunnel would be the only way I could cope with what you’re describing.

      1. JustAGirlTryingToMakeIt*

        That saying is so true, sadly. I’m currently in the process of looking for a new job in my fiance’s city, 2 and a half hours away. I work in politics, so I’m not as concerned about “job hopping” being an issue on my resume. Folks in my field tend to work 6-12 month stents with campaigns and such, which is what I’ve done.

    2. Sarashina*

      Oh, I wish I had advice – I worked for a manager like that and I left after a year. The only thing for it is to try as hard as you can not to internalize his behavior towards you as something YOU’RE doing or something YOU can control if you do [x] thing. Which is easier said than done, I know.

      Good luck. I hope you find something new extremely soon.

    3. Queen of the Duck Club*

      If your company has some form of HR I would go to them to voice your concerns. Or if you are feeling particularly bold stand up to him. No one deserves to be walked on and verbally abused and he could end up respecting you more because of it…. or you’ll end up shooting yourself in the foot and need to leave anyway. Good luck!

    4. SciDiver*

      I worked with someone similar a few years back in an artistic field: extremely demanding, belittled any mistake, screamed at and cursed at the team I oversaw as well as at me. Definitely did it because he enjoyed the power and being able to humiliate the people working with him. It’s good that you’re on the hunt for something better, because nobody should have to put up with that kind of abuse in the workplace. As far as getting through it, there’s three things that I found helped me:

      1. Imagine your boss as a bit of a cartoon villain. Steam coming out of the ears, evil cackling, etc. Once I saw my boss as someone who had no respect for me and who had no issue berating me to the point of tears, it got easier to see how ridiculous and out of line his behavior actually was. He wasn’t going to change his behavior regardless of what I did, so I could detach myself from the personal attacks in his outbursts. I made sure the changes he needed got made and that mistakes were corrected, but tuned out all the other “are you completely incompetent?!” or “Just BE BETTER”.

      2. Make sure you give yourself small rewards or encouragement for the parts of your job you’re doing really well! At the end of the day make a list of the things you’ve accomplished, leave yourself sticky notes of encouragement reminding you that you’re doing a good job (I did this all the time when I had to email something to myself). When you’re working for someone awful, it’s easy to feel like you suck at everything. If there are coworkers who compliment your work, make a note for yourself when you’re feeling down.

      3. Not sure if it’s applicable in your situation, but I discovered somewhat late in the game that my boss would stop his tirade if I apologized and took responsibility for a mistake right away. Maybe he was more self conscious about screaming at someone who admitted they messed up, but it took the wind right out of his sails!

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this right now, it is completely horrible while you’re still dealing with it every day. Hopefully you’ll be in a new job soon that isn’t supervised by such a toxic person. Best of luck on the search!

      1. JustAGirlTryingToMakeIt*

        SciDiver,

        Thank you for taking the time to offer some advice. It’s comforting knowing I’m not alone in being treated this way by a superior. The cartoon villain- ha! That’s exactly what my coworkers and I say!
        As far as apologizing for mistakes, that doesn’t seem to work. Usually he screams at me when something is put on the back burner for another fire drill that he instructed to do so and gets angry when project x isn’t completely done when he asks about it. It’s just a bad situation in general. It stinks because I truly enjoy the work I get to do for him.

  126. Christina*

    Any advice on getting my boss away from using Facebook as an “official” way of communicating with our internal team?

    Background – we’re a small nonprofit that mostly works remote, we have email and IM and texting, but we also have a team Facebook group for staff and others (about 12 people total, a few board members, consultants, some volunteers, some people who haven’t been involved in the org for months to years). She uses it to post questions to the team, stuff that I think is way more effective as an email or should be through another more business-related vehicle (asking about staff meeting times, tasks/assignments for one person, stuff for the team to review that’s not relevant to anyone else, posting pictures that should be in our shared drive, happy birthdays and “great job team!” stuff).

    It drives me up the wall. The birthday and great jobs, fine. But the real business-related stuff… First, I don’t like having work mixed with my social media (I already manage our official SM accounts for the org), and I get notifications from this group when I’m off work, but can’t turn them off completely or I miss stuff that’s posted when I am working. It’s one more place to have to keep track of to-do items/assignments or questions when getting an email or IM would be so much faster and more effective. It’s hard to search (especially for photos that should be in our shared drive anyways). Stuff gets lost or missed.

    I asked my boss about why we use it vs. other tools and she finally said it’s so the other people in the group outside our immediate team can see we’re busy working on things, so it’s essentially just for optics/busy work for people who either shouldn’t care if we’re busy (consultants/volunteers) or should know we’re busy through other methods of communication (board).

    Am I just stuck with dealing with this or do I have any other options?

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I ended up already full on content for this week so I’m leaving this up — but if you want to repost it again on Friday (because my saying I was going to use it as its own post may have disincentivized additional comments), please free free!

    2. Manders*

      Would an option like Slack be an acceptable alternative? It sounds like she does want something that lets her dash off messages quickly, without feeling as formal as email. Slack has a search feature and lets you set up channels for groups you’re in, so you get the benefits of an instant messaging service without having to mix your work and personal accounts.

  127. I Love Thrawn*

    So, this was a not fun work experience, from last Friday: I was holding the door for an ex-employee (1099 worker who did janitorial), 75 year old man, with his hands full of stuff, including his cane. And as I was standing there, he got tangled up in his cane and/or had a moment of muscle weakness (very common for him) and he… went down, and then kind of fell backwards. And snapped his femur in the process. Ambulance, surgery, now in rehab. It was such a strange experience. He’s the kind who always wants to stay busy, do stuff, can’t stand to be sidelined. We didn’t exactly let him go, just required a dr’s note to return to work, which he was never able to get. I guess it’s good that he wasn’t actually employed when he fell.

      2. I Love Thrawn*

        I think he’s doing as well as can be. This is just his latest health problem, but the worst so far. He’s just so stubborn about not being careful.

  128. EnobyPro*

    Thank you again for all your advice. I had a phone interview for a tech company this past Monday (still waiting to hear back on whether I made it to.the second round), and another phone interview for a university. I really appreciated everyone who encouraged me that my professional career is not over. I’m still scared of being unemployed, but I’m feeling a little more hopeful that I’ll find a better job soon.

  129. Ruth (UK)*

    Does anyone else get really nervous/worried about performance reviews/appraisals even if they know it will (probably or definitely) be good?

    I had my first appraisal in my new job earlier this week and it went well. Without going into too much detail about it, my boss praised my work (and nominated me for a recognition/reward thing within the place I work) and said she had no concerns, and then discussed further training etc for me.

    Despite pretty much knowing it was going to go like this (or at least very well) as I’m lucky enough to have a boss who gives feedback and is generally quite direct, and with whom I feel I have a good relationship.

    I discussed my nervousness about my upcoming appraisal (before the fact) with some (non-work) friends, who couldn’t understand why I could be nervous if I knew it would almost definitely be good.

    I think first of all, I worried that there would be some sort of issue/problem with my work that I didn’t know about but should do (because maybe it would be really obvious) and I’d be caught off guard.

    But most of all, I think I was just anxious about the (social?) situation of being in a formal conversation with my boss, that is structured/organised to talk specifically about my performance, and then written up.

    I have gathered people tend to think I come across as confident, etc, but internally I do feel quite socially awkward in a lot of situations, and this was one that was causing me stress.

    Anyway, it did turn out to be ok – not just that my performance was good, but it was a lot less tense/awkward/etc than I’d been picturing… So maybe I should try not to worry next time (except I probably will!)

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Yep! I ALWAYS get nervous. I have to convince myself that it’s going to be fine and they aren’t going to dramatically fire me. My work is good. My coworkers love me. Everybody I work with at corporate loves me. But every year I panic…for FIVE years now.

      However, I also get nervous when I get emails saying “Call me.” And every time it’s never a big deal. Just calling to explain/ask me a question/turn off a space heater/etc.

      One time it was because my GrandBoss at the time forgot to shove the birthday balloon back under her desk and she didn’t want it to set off the motion detectors.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Oh yes, I’ve always been like this. I had my review this week, and it went great – the only “negative” feedback was something I was aware of any way and just kind of a general improvement sort of thing, not anything really bad.

      My biggest fear is that I’m “doing it wrong” without realizing it, that I’m totally oblivious to all the ways I’m messing up. This comes from growing up in a family that overreacted to everything, good and bad, so I always felt like I had to walk on eggshells because I never knew what was going to trigger my parents. I feel this way in pretty much all aspects of my life. When people say, “Why are you worried? You know you’re doing a good job/it will be positive/etc,” my response is, “But do I REALLY know that? How do I know?????” (Re: family, I also get embarrassed/anxious when I receive praise – because my parents would gush and embarrass me if I did something good, then brag about it to their friends, so I was always embarrassed around people – in turn, I don’t handle compliments or attention well).

      It’s great that you have such a good boss. I do as well, and at this most recent review, it was the first I ever got through without feeling super anxious and shaking. Hold onto the memory of that good experience – and whenever you start feeling anxious again, pull up that memory to give you some confidence. That is how I get through things!

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        I think my boss knew I was this nervous as well… She made a pot of tea for both of us and made mine (poured and did the milk). (Normally, I make the tea).

        I don’t know why I’m like this – I don’t think my family were quite like that (I mean, what you describe is something I can relate to, but as a milder version). I have had some previous bad jobs/bosses though… I think I definitely felt caught off guard by things said in my performance reviews at my last job…

    3. Tris Prior*

      Yes, I get nervous too. Even though my boss has flat out told me before, “I don’t want anything in your review to come as a surprise, and if I have a problem with anything you are doing, I will address it at the time and not store it all up for review time.”

      I feel like it only takes one boss who is NOT like this, to set one up for future anxiety at review time. I’ve gotten feedback before about not smiling enough and other critiques that were more about my personality than my work, and I always fear that this stuff is going to come up again. Even though it’s amazing how those things ceased being problems now that I’m working somewhere that isn’t toxic and treats employees like people and not robots who do not need to eat or sleep or rest. Funny, that!

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        Yes, this! My previous boss had problems with me – saying that while I was quick and good at my work, I was ‘combative’ and difficult to deal with. My boss regularly said sexist things (eg. if he spoke to a woman on the phone and thought she’d seemed in a bad mood, he’d make comments like ‘probably on her period’) and racist things (eg. calling anyone with a Chinese name (on the patient list) ‘ping pong’ or with an African sounding name ‘chumba wumba’ etc). When I said these things were inappropriate or racist/sexist, he would a) deny it and b) tell me I was combative/argumentative/seeking a fight, etc. He told me I dealt poorly with feedback and ‘cared too much’ about things.

        Now, I work somewhere where these things are not happening, and suddenly I’ve got no reason to be ‘combative’ and ‘argumentative’ and now I’m being by my colleagues that I’m easy going and friendly!

        And even though I knew I was ‘in the right’ before, because what he was saying was wrong, it still feels awful to always be labelled as The One picking the fights instead of just letting everything slide/drop, letting those comments go, like I ‘should’, especially when I really would like to be able to get along well with people!

        So now, I suppose my personality isn’t an issue (as it is not clashing with my boss’s) so I really can just be assessed on my work. (My previous boss did constantly acknowledge that my actual work was always very good, and did in fact give me a very good reference when I left, which I wasn’t sure he would).

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Bullies like to make others feel bad, you were supposed to feel awful about being accused of picking fights.
          This was a person who probably had to find other people to blame for everything.

    4. Red Reader*

      I hate performance reviews and am always convinced I’m going to get canned, never mind that my boss and two different grandbosses both keep shoving me at promotion and advancement opportunities hand over fist.

    5. NW Mossy*

      This is so common, and in fact is the reason I decided to change it up with my team this year and give them the option of either a) waiting to hear their merit raises at their next 1:1 or b) scheduling a one-off meeting with me sooner. It was a roaring success, and something I definitely want to do again in future years, schedule permitting. I feel so much better being able to send my folks into the weekend anxiety-free!

    6. Chaordic One*

      I’m sort of paranoid because I have previously worked at a couple of toxic, dysfunctional workplaces where these kind of reviews would be where I ended up being blindsided by seemingly innocuous or inconsequential things that happened several weeks previously. I really felt that if these were problems they should have been brought up when they happened, and not weeks later at the review. I kind of think it was a form of gas lighting.

    7. Artemesia*

      I think this goes back to early childhood. I still always have anxiety around phone calls and when back in the day it was a phone call from the boss or client, I always assumed the worst. When you are raised with a lot of disapproval and shame it gets deep in your bones. My parents were not abusive or bad people but the rigid moralistic thing still made for a guilt inducing childhood — and some of us take this on more than others.

  130. paul*

    Is it weird to want a job where I can just be in Excel all day? Or maybe Access (but I haven’t learned that software). I like running pivot tables and reports and getting if-then statements out of huge groups of numbers. It’s very soothing and relaxing. At least so long as I can take a breather ever 2 hours or so when my eyes start to feel fuzzy

    Unfortunately I’ve not seen jobs where it seems like that’s a lot of what you do.

    1. Alex*

      I feel the same way! I think accounting types use Excel a lot. I mostly work with text based data, but I love sorting, filtering, concatenating, using if-statements. I don’t have enough tech skills to be a data analyst, but it’s something I think I would enjoy.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Nope. That’s not a weird desire at all. Not that this is exactly the same thing, but have you thought about being a database admin?

      1. paul*

        That’s actually part of my job now (I wear like 2-3 hats) but it’s a very niche database software based around health and human services, not something broadly used outside of this field. We know better than to make caseworkers or intake workers try to use Oracle or w/e.

    5. Thlayli*

      I think I’d enjoy that too. Not sure what kind of jobs do it though. Maybe working in insurance probability assessment?

    8. Boy oh boy*

      Have you thought of accountancy specialising in data analytics? It’s a rising field. The Big 4 accounting firms are really pushing it right now.

      My university recently hired a data analyst (not accountant) to create complex reports on things like recruitment, attrition, research grants etc. You might enjoy roles like that.

      If you can combine superb excel skills with some industry knowledge you’ll do well. If you are also comfortable talking to people and “interviewing” them to understand their reporting needs, you really will smash it. (A lot of people don’t like doing this, but it will give you a huge boost.)

  131. Anon for this question*

    Any advice would be so welcome!

    I applied for and got an internal transfer at work in December 2017. It is a different line of work, but a lateral move. Generally, if merited, the company gives some sort of token raise, maybe just an annual increase of $1000 or something. But I make 95% of the midpoint already, so that didn’t happen. Not to be immodest, but I make that much because I’m pretty awesome at my jobs, and have been ever since I started. I have always received amazing performance reviews and have been compensated accordingly.

    Now, we are getting our annual bonuses and merit increases. Based on my glowing review from my previous manager, I got 100% of the target amount. Which I am so grateful for.

    But my current manager advised that because she has to maintain pay equity on the team, I cannot have a raise this year. She added that it didn’t mean I wouldn’t be eligible for merit increases later, but it’s not possible this year. I will mention here I am a white woman.

    Ok. I knew this was a lateral move. But I’ve done lateral moves at this company and that’s never happened.

    What I really need advice on:
    – She just told me I will never get a raise in this role, right? Because I’m guessing she didn’t give everyone on the team a raise to match me, so there’s not going to be pay equity next year or the next or the next.
    – I’m still new, so getting a feel for her, but she seems to be a fair person and good manager. I need to approach her about what my development path looks like, right? Again, she just basically told me I can’t grow on this team.
    – I can start applying for new jobs internally once I have been in this position 12 months.
    – The wrinkle in this is that I am pregnant and will be taking the parental leave offered by my company. So I started this job Dec 2017. I’m due next month in April 2018 and will be coming back in August 2018.
    – My concern is not burning bridges. I have to do what’s best for my career and all that, but sometimes that means accepting reality. If she confirms that I will be stagnant as far as earnings go, will starting to try to leave in December 2018 be ok, or should I wait until August 2019?
    – I know once I talk with her about my development potential, this could all change. If she says there is a path to promotion, I could be happy at this job.

    Thank you!

    1. NW Mossy*

      I’m in a very similar position, minus the pregnancy (congrats, BTW!). I didn’t get a bump when I made the lateral in April last year, and both then and now I’m making basically the top of the market range for my job level. As a result, my merit increase was pretty dang small and I can expect that to remain the case as long as I’m in the job. My boss was very open with me about this from the start, and by now it’s just factored in for me. I love what I do and my boss is fantastic, and in a way, it’s nice to know I’ve already performed well enough to be maxing out my earning potential in this role considering that I’ve only been at this level for 3 years.

      In reading your post, though, I think you’re leaping to some assumptions that don’t feel warranted by what you’re saying. Pay equity for one year doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ll never get a raise; it’s more likely to mean that raises that happen for you at this level are likely to be smaller and probably tied to how much the market range for your position is adjusted each year.

      Also, lack of pay growth definitely doesn’t mean there’s no scope for professional growth in this role. Think about why you took this job in the first place – what were you hoping to get from it that wasn’t available to you in your previous role? Is it still possible to do those things? Have you talked with your boss about what you want to get professionally from this position, and where you might want to go next?

      Bottom line: not getting a merit increase in one year when you recently made a job change is NOT a for-sure sign that you’re in a dead-end job. A lot can change over the remainder of this year, and you are already going to have a massive change in your personal life. Go easy – you don’t need to decide all this right now. Start the conversation with your boss about where you want to go next and see what she says.

  132. Alex*

    Does anyone know of any career resources (websites, organizations, blogs, etc.) that focus on public sector employment in the US? All the career resources I’ve come across are very corporate-centric, which isn’t very helpful. The few public sector things I have seen all seem to be from the UK.

    1. Little Bean*

      What sort of resources are you looking for? Or, as an example, what are the corporate-centric resources you’re looking at and why are you finding them to be irrelevant?

      1. Alex*

        If you Google any career type question, such as how to negotiate a raise, expectations for interview timelines, etc., most of the responses are from Forbes or other business-focused publications or organizations. There appears to be very few comparable articles for public sector workers.

        1. Cheshire Cat*

          The short answer: there is too much variation in public sector jobs to make generalizations, so I don’t think there’s a lot out there.

          I’ve worked in the public sector most of my career, in several states (my spouse was career military, so we moved a lot), and you didn’t negotiate raises, or even starting salaries, in any of the agencies where I’ve worked. Congress/state legislatures/city or county councils determine pay, including COLAs, and merit increases are uncommon but also not negotiable. Governments are ultimately responsible to taxpayers, and there are always some very vocal ones who think that government workers should all earn poverty-level wages.

          Hiring timelines will vary depending on the organization, but in general are going to be longer than for businesses. I worked for one organization that couldn’t post a job opening until a person had left, and then there were rules designed to be fair to all applicants that dragged out the timeline. For example, you had to post positions with the closing date at least 30 days away, and review of the applications couldn’t start until after the closing date. Reviewing applications could take one week, or three, depending on the hiring manager & how many people applied. And then you had to interview 3-5 people … there was a lot of red tape!

  133. Nant*

    hey y’all o/ no question from me, but just wanted to give a shout out to my sibling’s boss! my sibling works as a carer, and their boss thought it would be appropriate for my sibling to come and stay at a client’s house for 35 unpaid hours before the start of their paid shift on the weekend because of the uk’s snowmageddon. their boss had in fact expected all six of the carers rostered for the end of the week to cram themselves into this poor client’s bungalow. :’)

    2. T3k*

      Woooow… I mean, I get wanting to prevent any issues with them getting there, but unpaid and have to stay in a stranger’s home?! Oh no no no.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        And I’m sure the client loved the prospect of everyone being in their house at the same time. Sheesh.

  134. Jazzyisanonymous*

    So, being new to the working world- is this normal?
    Whenever someone makes a mistake management sends out a department wide email. They say it’s to prevent the mistake from happening again, but they put the file number and sometimes the employee’s name on the email.

    Is there really anything to be gained from this? It puts everybody on edge and sometimes makes people cry.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Whenever someone makes a mistake management sends out a department wide email.

      Normal? Not really. Acceptable and justifiable? Sure.

      they put the file number and sometimes the employee’s name on the email.

      This is ridiculous. Put a confidential note somewhere with the file number and employee’s name. There’s absolutely no reason to include that in an email to a bunch of people.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      There have been some past posts about this stuff. Consensus:

      • Public shaming is a bad management tool
      • Corrections should be meted out in private, not public
      • Failure analysis (someone come up with the official term…?) is an important tool in many companies, and a great place to use the passive voice. If it’s a new discovery of a unique way to mess up that should go out to all hands, the phrasing is “the door was held open” not “Fergus held open the door.”
      • The department-wide email is appropriate if you don’t know WHO is leaving their dishes in the sink. The miscreant will probably assume the email doesn’t mean them and it won’t work, but it’s not like the admin has nothing to do but stand in the break room and police the sink.

    3. Murphy*

      Management did this at my old job. They didn’t use names, so usually it was either a) Everyone definitely knew who it was or b) Nobody was really sure, possibly including the person who did it, because they also didn’t actually talk to the person who had done it. (Also it angered people because management also never went back to the employee about their side of the story, so sometimes it was “Somebody in the teapots department said we’re making our water too hot. Don’t do that.” when that’s not what happened at all.)

      I don’t get it…they said it was because if one person needed a reminder than other people could benefit from the reminder which, sure OK. But if it ends up more shaming the person making the mistake, or taking the place of addressing the issue with the employee directly then I think it does more harm than good.

      1. Jazzyisanonymous*

        They’ve argued that it works the same way as when they send attaboy emails for good work that include file numbers.
        Everybody knows it’s them, management isn’t vague. It just feels like they send out an email to make the person feel extra crappy.

    4. Susan K*

      This is very common in my industry, except that they don’t include the employee’s name (although most of the time, everyone already knows who it was). They also at least try to frame it as, “Here are the lessons to be learned from this,” but there’s also a public shaming undertone.

      I don’t think there’s any benefit to this as a disciplinary action, but I do think it can help to prevent recurrence of the mistake. I have seen a few things like that and thought, “Yikes, I probably would have made the same mistake.”

    5. crying at work is fun!*

      I think I had that guy who did this as a teacher in grad school. At least, he bragged about doing this and other public humiliations. He was a business guy who taught a class in the business school, so he was still doing it at the time of the teaching, too.

      Anyway, no, this is not normal. Run away. Run very away.

    6. Why Oh Why Does this keep happening?*

      Normal? It happens. Some managers are so conflict-averse they can’t have a one-on-one conversation with the one person who made that one mistake.

      Effective? Only if you want your employees to hate you and groan when they see you’ve sent out yet another email about something that has nothing to do with them.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Bad managers do this.

      They could, you know, train people to do the job instead of using public humilation. There’s a thought.

  135. Murphy*

    This is more of a vent, because I don’t think I’m in a position to do anything about it, but my employer is introducing some kind of virtual parking permit where we don’t need a physical sticker, but the system will be able to read our license plate. But because of this, we won’t be allowed to back into parking spaces or pull through! I pull through all the time, and I’m actually really annoyed about this. I didn’t realize how much I cared about such a small thing.

    1. a girl has no name*

      That is annoying! Also, what if you don’t have the same car everyday? Sometimes my spouse and I switch cars so he can work on mine, or what if you are renting a vehicle because yours is in the shop? This change seems really silly. I too am a fan of pulling through.

      1. Murphy*

        I wondered that as well. Apparently we can resister multiple cars (including temporary ones), but they can’t both be here at the same time. But if it’s a rental or a new car, we have to make sure we register it right away so we don’t get a ticket….remind me why this is easier than just moving my sticker from one car to another? It’s just needlessly complicated.

    2. WG*

      I’m married to a firefighter and would have a hard time not backing into a parking spot or pulling through – I’ve been trained to always park facing out for quicker response to a fire! I’m also more comfortable not backing into a parking lot for pedestrian safety. Even with backup cameras and sensors in newer vehicles, I like driving out of a parking spot better than backing out.

      I’m assuming you live in a state where front license plates aren’t used/required. My state requires front and back license plates on all cars. It sounds like your new parking system requires seeing the plate and it’s easier/less time consuming to have all vehicles parked with plates facing outward.

      1. Murphy*

        Yes to all that. We can pull through/back in if we have a front placing plate, which no one here does.

      2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I’m with you. My car is very short, and going in nose-first, even when I make an effort to only pull in far enough that I’m not hanging out of the space, routinely I find myself hemmed in with GIGANTIC MONSTER SUVs so that I can only see directly behind my own vehicle until I’m well out of the space. Backing in or pulling through is how I do unless I know I’ll need easy trunk access with whatever I’m getting.

  136. Queer Anxiety Blob*

    What are folks’ experiences around verbal job offers materializing into formal/written job offers? I was given a verbal job offer back in January by my previous boss (who said he would make space for me if I ever wanted to come back after I left about a year ago), including some negotiating around start date scenarios and salary. Due to some vacations/family emergencies/HR formalities with posting the job internally on the part of my previous employer, I am waiting to hear back from him today with an update (either the job offer or that I might have to go through some additional interviewing steps). I managed or played a large role in the programs I’d be responsible for when I worked there previously and would need no onboarding to the mission/culture/etc of the organization, although I have less formal experience with accounting which they said they’d be happy to train me on initially. While I’ve repeatedly been told that he couldn’t imagine anyone else at the company being better suited to the role than I would be, the two people getting phone interviews today were referred by current employees and I don’t really know what I’m up against or whether their potential experience in some aspect of the position means that they are reconsidering whether I’m the strongest candidate. Thoughts on any similar experiences folks have had?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      While I’ve repeatedly been told that he couldn’t imagine anyone else at the company being better suited to the role than I would be

      I don’t think this is a verbal job offer. It just sounds as if you’re a serious contender.

      I don’t really know what I’m up against or whether their potential experience in some aspect of the position means that they are reconsidering whether I’m the strongest candidate.

      Sounds about right. Just do the best you can. It’s out of your hands after that.

      1. Queer Anxiety Blob*

        I suppose it doesn’t sound like a verbal job offer with the information I provided; I was given a salary amount during our initial meeting and told they’d get me the offer letter later that week. He got some pushback from HR about him hiring me without the position being posted, hence the current situation.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          In that case, it sounds as if your former boss wants to hire you but is being held up by the proper channels.

  137. StarHunter*

    I know it was discussed before how cover letters were going extinct, but if I have a job posted for a membership/customer service manager with a requirement for nonprofit experience, and you are a paralegal or do film production, please send be a note why you are applying for this job. Please? Or your resume says you are only willing to locate to a city that is 2 hours from where the job is? Why did you send me your resume? Note to job searches out there: If you are going to use Indeed, set it up so you get alerts and can read through the job description, not just have your resume randomly sent out based on keywords. Happy snow day!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I know it was discussed before how cover letters were going extinct

      They aren’t going extinct. There are just some industries in which not including a cover letter won’t bar you from being considered.

  138. Anon For This*

    I have a colleague who I would describe as having a chip on her shoulder. She has good reasons for (some of) this, but man it’s a pain to deal with.

    For our work together, it mostly manifests as her feeling as though she’s not being appropriately looped in to conversations or decisions that she thinks she should be looped in on. Of course, sometimes she is right and I or others haven’t perfectly engaged everyone who should be involved in a process. But more often than not, she just… thinks she should be involved more or sooner than she needs to be.

    This week, for example, in a meeting that involved all managers in our division, she raised the complaint and worry that she hadn’t had a chance to talk about how her program would be involved with a new program that I am launching. She and I (and the other relevant program staff) are meeting about this next week; it’s been on her calendar for a couple of weeks and she has the agenda. She could have a legitimate complaint that this conversation should have happened earlier (it should have, for sure — but this whole program was delayed for seven months when we had a leadership transition, and we’re just now picking it back up) — but she was claiming that she was being left out altogether.

    Any suggestions for how to interrupt this?

    1. Former Govt Contractor*

      Did you respond to her in the moment and ask her, “what about the meeting we have scheduled next week to discuss that very issue?”

      1. Anon For This*

        After she finished speaking, I said (to the room, because her comment was directed to the room) that we had a meeting scheduled on that topic for next week. The meeting moved on from there.

        1. Anon For This*

          This particular moment wasn’t a big deal (I resolved it in the moment); but the pattern is frustrating.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      In a private moment maybe you can say, “Gee, Jane, you say that a lot. Are you happy here?”

  139. Queen of the Duck Club*

    Okay, so I have been temping for a while now at a teapot handling facility and it is not certain that the job will remain mine after another two weeks. People that I work with have made it clear that they appreciate that I am here but I am getting radio silence on what is going to happen. A friend recently reached out to me with two positions that are opening at her company that involve a lot of growth potential and higher wages but I would love to stay at my current workplace if they decide to offer me the job. If I do decide to seek the other job offers and they want to interview me how do I tell my current “boss” that I will need a couple hours to go for an interview without shooting myself in the foot on keeping this job?!

    1. Weyrwoman*

      how do I tell my current “boss” that I will need a couple hours to go for an interview

      To put it bluntly – you don’t. Tell your boss you need to take some PTO for a couple hours for an ‘appointment’ – I feel like many bosses will assume you mean a doctor’s appointment, and generally don’t question further. Bring a change of clothes with you if the clothes you plan to interview in are different than what you normally wear to work.

      1. Karo*

        Totally agreed on saying you have an appointment, but I have a question about the change of clothing. Where does one get changed in this type of scenario? I can see pulling off into a parking lot somewhere and changing if one of the articles of clothing is a skirt (i.e. skirt is on, dress pants go under, skirt comes off – or vice versa), but if you’re changing from jeans to dress pants, where do you do this?

      2. Anon for this*

        And some will become combative if you try to use PTO for an appointment. Heck, I had a boss who got suspicious when her (salaried, exempt) staff left the building for their entire lunch hour, and got really angry when people tacked PTO onto their lunch hour for an “appointment”, which meant that it wasn’t easy to interview for jobs.

      3. Queen of the Duck Club*

        The issue with this is the fact that I do not have PTO or any time off as it is a 60 day position that has been just created and they are unsure to the fact that the position will still exist after the time period is up or whether it will be permanent. So leaving AT ALL is frowned upon.

        1. Weyrwoman*

          Yikes. Okay, so still tell your boss you have an unavoidable appointment, and maybe offer to make up the hours elsewhere in the pay period?

        3. bb-great*

          You’ve been given no guarantee or even indication that your current position will be renewed or become permanent. A boss who would hold it against you for job hunting under those circumstances is completely unreasonable. So I would guess either he would actually be okay with it, or he’s not someone you would want to work for long term anyway.

          1. Willow Sunstar*

            As someone who was a temp for 10 years, I disagree. Most companies have no qualms about firing a temp for minor things that a permanent employee would only get warned about. Don’t make the mistake of being too honest, especially if you are single and have only yourself to rely on for earning money.

  140. LatinaAnon - The Update*

    So I originally posted on the January 12th open thread, and although I had very few replies, here’s the update in case anyone’s interested:

    I cracked and told Fergus about how I suspected my job was in jeopardy, and he agreed to try and help me. Unfortunately he’s been busy, along with Julia, with the new office they’re trying to put together, and when HR didn’t respond to him too, he didn’t know what to do, so I did the unthinkable: I contacted Dave, Julia’s manager.

    I wish he was the person I’d contacted from the beginning. Fergus really sold my value to the new team, and thus Dave is really invested/interested in making this transfer work. A miracle: after ghosting Dave for a week, HR FINALLY replied, saying they unfortunate don’t fund work visas, but Dave agreed that in this particular case the cost of the work visa for myself would (probably) cost less than hiring and training an employee from scratch, and that he’d talk to them to maybe see if an exception can be made. I also offered to cover the expenses, if push came to shove, and he told me he’d let me know what they say.

    Pray and cross your fingers for me everyone. The reply I got wasn’t the one I wanted, but the one I expected at this point – and it’s not a “no” yet, so I’m trying to keep my hopes up. Also I’m just glad I got a reply at all. It’s something at least you know?

  141. Crylo Ren*

    Has anyone else here dropped out of a graduate program or MBA? Do you have any regrets?

    I’m thinking of quitting my MBA program but am wondering if it is too soon for me to make such a decision. I’ve only finished 2 semesters so far (just “foundational”, general core courses) but I already have a lot of misgivings about it. Should I stick it out for at least another year and see if it gets better when I take more classes that are more relevant to my career? I’m hesitant to sink even more costs into the program considering I’m not getting any kind of tuition reimbursement and the ROI outlook for this school and for an MBA in general is not great for my chosen career.

    1. Little Bean*

      Several people dropped out of my graduate program and it was a really great, well-respected program. I think the common factor was that most of them had come in very shortly after undergrad, and hadn’t fully 100% thought through the commitment – not just the commitment to the 3 years of the program and the thousands of dollars of tuition, but the commitment to wanting to work in that field for the rest of their career. If you don’t see yourself working in a field where this degree is going to advantage you, then it might be better to save your money and your time, and get out now. You could also ask them if there’s the option of taking some time off and coming back to the program later.

    3. Can't Sit Still*

      Don’t throw good money after bad, first of all. But it’s worth exploring why you wanted to do the program in the first place.

      I’m just over halfway through an MSML, and I wonder why I’m doing this quite often. As in daily. Then I remind myself that I had a very specific reason for getting this degree and the program has already proven itself worthwhile for me professionally. But I’m not paying for it, either, and I might feel differently if I were.

    4. Library School Dropout*

      I dropped out an MLIS program, and mostly I regret the student loans that I took out and am still repaying. I think that there was a slim chance that I might have been able to have found my dream job, but I became disillusioned by my inability to find a part-time job in a library while going to school and the way that library hiring managers seemed to be looking only for bubbly, “rah-rah” type extroverted young women. (I realize this is an unfair generalization, but these seemed to be the kind of people that ended up being hired for the jobs I was applying.) The jobs themselves didn’t really pay that well (even for people with an MLIS) and had weird, frequently shifting, hours.

      Then there were some problems with the college itself. They hired a horrible dean and all of the really good profs resigned in the middle of the program. (The dean was temporarily suspended and ended up resigning in disgrace following several incidents of racist behavior, but this was well after I had dropped out.) The student advisor who was supposed to guide us had a bizarre set of circumstances that meant she wasn’t really able to provide the support that she should have. And there were weird problems with class facilities themselves.

    5. scorpysuit coryphefuss arterius*

      Hi yes I have done this thing. I left my PhD program; I was ABD and had a good deal of my dissertation written.

      So far, I feel ambivalent about it – but I’m still processing the whole thing: my time in grad school, my departure, giving up on a lifelong dream, all of it…. But even so, I do not regret leaving. I somewhat regret starting my PhD program in the first place / not leaving sooner, I’m sad that it didn’t work out, I feel a lot of things about the current state of academia, but I don’t regret leaving.

      Here are some questions I considered as I pondered leaving:
      1. Would finishing my PhD be financially advantageous? (A: in the right circumstances, the answer would be yes)
      2. Would finishing my PhD make me more hire-able? (A: for some things it would help, for some things it would not)
      3. Do I have the support and the resources I need to complete the program? (A: nope)
      4. Do I really have a future in academia? Can I reasonably expect to have one? Or am I just sinking vast amounts of resources into trying to fight my way into a broken system? (A: *harsh, broken laughter*)
      5. How does finishing my PhD & pursing a tenure-track career help or hinder me from my other goals in life (like being available to help support family members with health problems, etc)? (A: Outlook not so good)
      6. Can I continue to work on my dissertation / pursue work in this field AND survive that choice? (A: at this point, can’t really afford the risk, mental-health-wise)
      7. Am I making the decision to stay or go under despair? (A: despair – and the inertia it produced – kept me in it longer than I probably would have otherwise chosen).

      Of course, these questions may be of limited help to you, since getting an MBA is a different sort of endeavor than getting a PhD & pursuing tenure-track work.

      I will say that every now and then, when I am reading a book in my free time or playing with my cats or working on my for-fun writing, I am occasionally hit with that old familiar stab of guilt: I Should Be Dissertating! (As a PhD candidate, I felt a pervasive sense of guilt about any moment spent not-dissertating). Then I realize I’m free. And that feels kind of wonderful.

      It might be helpful to picture yourself: a) the day you would graduate with your MBA, moving on to whatever future that the MBA opens up for you, and b) the day you are free of your MBA program and everything that goes along with it.

      In any case, it’s a really difficult decision. One thing a lot of people who haven’t experienced grad school might not appreciate is that it actually takes a lot of bravery to make the decision to leave. I wish you the best, whatever you decide!

    6. Triple Anon*

      I haven’t, but I wish I had. I knew the field was a bad fit for me as soon as I started the coursework. I took bad advice and succumbed to pressure to stick it out. This led to a massive amount of wasted time, student loan debt, and years of experience in a field that is still a bad fit. I’m left trying to explain all of it while transitioning to something else. And did I mention this field is a really bad fit? And sends the wrong message about what kind of person I am and what I’m good at?

      Anyway, sorry about the rant. I say go with your first instinct and avoid wasting any more time or money. Unless you’re pretty far into the program or you think there’s a way to make it relevant to the career direction you want to go in.

  142. Sarashina*

    Hey all – any new manager tips for getting comfortable with delegating? I have only ever worked for extreme micromanagers, so my main strategy coming in here was not to treat my direct report that way… but it turns out she actually needs a lot of guidance and checking in and gentle pushback. The majority of her workload needs to be delegated through me, too, so this ends up being a daily thing.

    My own manager thinks I’m holding the line pretty well (and could stand to be even firmer at times) but every time I have to repeat something I heard from one of my past managers, I just cringe. Any ideas?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you meet once a week and lay out her assignments for the week?

      Do you clearly state where she is allowed wiggle room?
      Are you teaching her how to make decisions when she is in doubt?
      When you give her an answer, do you show her the reason why that is the answer?

      I can’t tell if she is new, if she is burned out from bad bosses or if she is afraid of messing up with her new boss (you).

      1. Sarashina*

        Thanks so much, this is great. Yeah, I think the main things with her have been teaching her when and where she can use her own judgment, and pushing back when she wants to hand back things she doesn’t like (calling people on the phone, for example.) She had to do my position on an interim basis during the search and did not really like being in charge, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s burned out.

        Moving to more of a structured check-in setup is a good call. When I proposed it before she was pretty lukewarm on the idea, since we share an office and she can ask me questions whenever, but I think now I have enough of an idea of how she works that I can point out where it’d benefit both of us.

    2. DDJ*

      Here’s the thing about clear direction: there are times when it’s needed, and times when it’s not. If it’s a new task, then you’re doing yourself AND your employee a huge favour by giving clear direction.

      There are some people who just like to be directed a little more than others, regardless of tenure or comfort in the role. I have one employee who is basically fine to be left alone all day, and I have another who likes to check in periodically – he’s been here longer than I have, but he still likes to hear “Yep, you’ve got it right” every now and then.

      There’s no one best way to manage people. If I handled every employee in every situation on every task exactly the same, it would be a disaster. If your employee has one task she’s doing all the time and she’s consistently making the same errors or having the same issues, or asking the same questions over and over, then that’s something to be addressed. But having to give someone clear direction isn’t micromanaging if the direction is needed/appreciated!

      You may also want to talk to your employee about this once you’re more comfortable in the role. When you say that she “needs a lot of guidance and checking in and gentle pushback,” is that with everything, or does she just seem to respond better when you use this method? Do you feel she needs the guidance, or does her performance indicate that she needs a bit of hand-holding, or is it just for new things?

  143. Rilara*

    I have a question about relevant experience vs not relevant experience in a resume. I’m currently in grad school for engineering and have had 2 engineering internships. These take up enough space in my resume to make my resume almost a page, and were right after each other so they are now my most recent jobs.

    I also had a library work study job in undergrad that I did for about a year right before my internship (I did a good job and have a great reference, but I don’t have tangible accomplishments from this position), and a telemarketer job from a couple years ago (where I worked for 2 years and eventually got promoted to an assistant manager position).

    Should I try and include one of my two jobs experiences that weren’t in my field onto my resume? I worry that it will look like I’ve had no job experience besides internships.

    If I picked one, I would prefer to put the telemarketing job since I had a lot of accomplishments, but the problem is that the library job is much more recent, so I feel like it would be odd to not include the library job even though I had no real accomplishments to discuss.

    Does anyone have a suggestion on how I should do this? I’m also thinking of just severely condensing my internships a ton and putting both of my jobs that weren’t in my field, but I’m not sure if that effort would be necessary or if employers would care about the other other experience.

    1. Weyrwoman*

      You may want to consider condensing your resume down. Maybe something like listing school(s) like so:
      Ms of Teapot Engineering at University of Awesome, [Year/In progress]
      [Location of school]

      Also consider font choice and size! I like to use non-standard but readable fonts like Trebuchet MS or Verdana, and those can often be condensed to 10pt or 11pt font without impacting the readability of your resume too badly.

      1. Weyrwoman*

        And then you can condense your internships like the schools, and probably still have room for your professional job experiences too!

    2. Teapot librarian*

      I got a 6 page resume from a recent college graduate. Please don’t include non-relevant experience. People looking at your resume will see that you are in/are just finishing grad school and it will make sense that your relevant experience is limited to engineering. That said, don’t rule out telemarketing and library jobs as non-relevant. Are customer service skills important in the positions you’re applying for? Remember that clients are customers even though the experience isn’t the same as a retail type of job. What did you do in your work study? Did it involve shelving or copy cataloging or some other responsibility that would demonstrate your keen attention to detail, which is important in engineering? Think about those transferrable skills when deciding whether to include the positions on your resume.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      My opinion would be to condense it down enough to include the two jobs, but still keep the description of those very brief. I don’t normally care too much about non-engineering work on an entry-level engineer’s resume, but having that office/managerial experience could tip the scale in your favor vs. someone identical without it. (I’m assuming you worked the telemarketing job after high school. I wouldn’t include anything that isn’t directly related that is from high school.)

      My interest is definitely going to be in what you did at your internships over everything else.

    4. CheeryO*

      How much info are you including for your internships? I see a lot of resumes from (mostly undergrad but senior-level) engineering students, and almost all of them include way too many details about their internships. I feel like you should be able to get one or maybe even both of the “non-relevant” jobs in there on the bottom if you strictly limit yourself to maybe 3 lines max for each internship.

    5. Rilara*

      Based on the overall consensus, I’m going to condense my internship bullet points to three and try to include at least one of my other jobs. My bullet points definitely have some info that can be deleted or put into another point so I’ll start there.

      I did shelving and weeding processing at the library, and it didn’t even occur to me to play up the attention to detail part of that job! I have a job I’m excited to apply for this weekend so I will keep that in mind when I’m editing my resume.

      And don’t worry Teapot Librarian, I wouldn’t dare making my resume more than a page at a point in my career :D!

      I’ve been using Book Antiqua for a long time with 11 point font but I’ll try Verdana and Trebuchet and see if I can get more words in there without sacrificing readability.

      Thanks so much everyone!

    6. Thlayli*

      I have sometimes done a resume that’s got “engineering experience” where I go into detail and then “other experience” where it’s just a line or two to show that I was employed.

  144. Kyleah*

    I love the company I work for but I find it hard to respect my manager. She is 8 years younger, has zero experience managing, is careless and clueless about most things, and relies heavily on me to do tasks that I feel should be her job. For context, she is the HR manager while I am the office manager. However, I do the hiring and onboarding while she only ever does payroll, keep track of people’s annual leave, and big picture stuff like discussing payroll budgets with the higher-ups.

    I feel shortchanged as I have not gotten a salary increment for all the HR work I do. (Been a year now since doing HR work.) I asked her about it at my last QR and she seemed surprised I would feel that way – she said the OM role would always have other duties assigned other than office management at no additional pay. I look at how little work she does and how much I do and how little I am being paid compared to her, and I resent her. I have an expressive face and have not been able to keep a straight face at all. I snap at her, I roll my eyes – and she noticed this and is asking to have a ‘formal chat’ with me next week. Yikes.

    FWIW, when I told her I felt overwhelmed, instead of offering to take some work off of me, she goes, “This is why we have our twice-weekly catchups, so we can lay out exactly what your tasks are and I can help you prioritise.” She proceeded to literally number my tasks by priority and put the duration in brackets. I don’t need help prioritising – I know what I have to do and when. I just needed her to take one or two of the tasks away from me!

    Am I justified to feel miffed or is this just what I can expect from being a subordinate?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t know, but it does sound to me like your job isn’t going to change and that you don’t like it. Can you start looking?

    2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      If you’re feeling that much resentment for your boss that it’s physically showing, I think it’s time to start looking for another job. Even if she were to take one or two things off your plate, the resentment has already set in. And that’s a mighty hard thing to overcome. At this point, it doesn’t seem like there’s very much she could do to earn your respect back. And as much as you love the company, this will start to poison that outlook (and, possibly, your interactions with other coworkers).

    3. Trixie*

      I think feeling miffed it justified. I am an admin assistant/office manger and a few years ago, I had HR duties shifted to me at no additional pay. I hate, hate, hate that “other duties as assigned” baloney because that’s basically a way to force admins to do the stuff that should be done by others but they feel they are too important to do or they just don’t want to do them. I don’t mind doing my job, even the most undesirable parts of it, but I don’t think I should have go move the company vehicle the Director of Development left under the loading dock because it’s raining, he didn’t have an umbrella and doesn’t want to get wet or try to explain why identifying documentation is required for the I-9 and argue about dress code.

      During your “formal chat”, I would tell her that your workload has become overwhelming, even with her prioritizing “help”. Tell her you need to shift one or two tasks back to her and if she doesn’t have time to do them, maybe she should consider hiring part time help.

    4. Margery*

      Same happened to me. I resented my boss at the end and ended finding another job where I’m so much happier.

      She won’t change and will constantly take the praise for what you do.

    5. Lindsay J*

      Honestly, you need to reign in your physical reactions to her, now.

      If my subordinate was snapping at me and rolling their eyes at me, the formal chat I would be having with them would be letting them go.

      And basically, she is your boss. She gets to delegate work to you. If she has decided that she wants you to do hiring and onboarding, then those are now your duties. For what it’s worth, I don’t necessarily view those as only or primarily HR tasks. Most places I have been, the department the person is going to be in does the hiring and the onboarding (except for communicating specific things like the intricacies of the health benefits and 401K vesting and stuff like that).

      Part of effectively managing a department or a company is delegating duties to the lowest level that can effectively handle it – like, it’s not effective for a regional manager to get down into the intricacies of the sales process, or to make their own copies, if those tasks can be delegated to the sales manager and an admin, respectively. That frees the regional manager to do the high level work. It sounds like that’s what your manager has done here – she is handling the high level budgeting stuff and leaving you to do the day-t0-day work.

      Also, I’m not sure why her age was brought into the discussion at all. I currently manage a team where I am the youngest member. In fact, for a lot of my career I have managed or supervised teams where I was the youngest person, and often by a lot more than 8 years. Being young doesn’t have anything to do with her level of competency.

      (Not having any experience managing is another thing entirely. But, well, everyone needs to have their first managing job sometime, and whoever hired her felt that her background showed that she had potential to do it.)

      Have you specifically asked her to take tasks away from you, or specifically told her that you cannot get everything done in a 40 hour week and asked her what tasks it was okay to let slide? Was her point in putting the durations to show you that you should be able to get everything done in a 40 hour week, and were the times and expectations reasonable? What would happen if you pushed back and said, “Well, you’re saying here that I should be spending an hour on hiring for the receptionist position, but in my experience, between screening resumes, answering questions from the candidates, playing phone tag to set up interviews, and actually doing the interviews, it takes a lot closer to 7 hours. If I do this, I can’t make the supplies order, oversee IT installing the phone system, or prepare the XYZ report on time. What would you like me to do?”

    6. Hannah with an H*

      Use the prioritized list and draw a line, with things below the line being things you won’t have time to do. Let your boss know that based on her priorities, some thing (the things below the line) won’t get done, at least not by you. She will have to deal with the impact.

    1. Espeon*

      I wonder about this LW too – because his letter is how I found AAM in the first place, Googling about hating work. I too hate having to work, with a passion. The whole system makes me angry and upset.

      I think it threw me a little here, as so many people agreed with and were kind to him – but when I’ve posted comments from my perspective on things (which will almost always be pro-the employee and ALWAYS ‘your life and who you are comes before any job’) I’ve been piled on so many times, I’m on like, my fourth(?) username.

  146. SoftGray*

    I have a work attire question: essentially, how appropriate is it to have a wildly varying style/fashion sense? The main point I’m worried about is that I love skirts and dresses and feminine scarves, but there are also days where I want to dress in a masculine style like a button up shirt and khaki pants. Hell, I’d wear a tie if I could get away with it, but that’s pushing too far.

    For extra context, I’m about to start my first fulltime job after grad school as a software engineer. Unfortunately, there are no other women my age in the office to base my attire on. (There are two other women – one is older than me and the other isn’t a software engineer and is also older than me, but not by as much.) I noticed everyone in jeans while I was interviewing, and I asked a few days ago about dress and was told that it’s jeans but with a nicer shirt and to stay away from t-shirts. That’s less formal than my internship where I pretty much wore slacks and nice sweaters, so I still have those to do too plus some blouses. I’ll definitely feel out how conservative the office is before I branch out.

    At home, there are days where I want to wear cute outfits, lots of days where I could care less, but occasionally I just straight up wear men’s clothing. I identify as a woman (cis) right now, but I had top surgery for dysphoria reasons and I’m thrilled with being able to wear a variety of clothing and loving my figure. I’m certainly not going to tell anyone at work about that, but I do worry if dressing in a masculine way sometimes would make them wonder.

    An aside: I can’t stand wearing women’s jeans because they’re so tight and restrict motion. I never wear jeans, so when I wear pants at work, it’s going to have to be black slacks or khakis.

    1. HannahS*

      I think it’s ok, and that it wouldn’t draw attention if you stay within roughly what style your coworkers are wearing. So, if all the men are wearing nice jeans and a dress shirt, plus the occasional sweater, I don’t think anyone would bat an eye if you wore khakis and a men’s dress shirt one day, and shirtdress with a fun scarf the next, followed by a business-casual skirt and blouse, followed by pants again, etc. If you were swinging from a full vintage pinup look with curls and cat-eyes one day, to dapper tweed + tie with no makeup and plain hair the next, then I think people would notice more, because those are pretty distinct styles. But going from conventional men’s clothes to conventional women’s clothes, within business casual–I don’t think it would rate notice, especially with straighter, looser cuts being trendy on women right now.

    2. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

      Your office has a clothing standard (some even have a written dress code) and you will easily be able to determine this on your first day, simply by looking around at what others are wearing. Sounds like office casual attire, based on what you have already observed and been told. This means, to me, that you may choose from jeans, pants, skirts, casual dresses, sweaters, blouses, etc. For the first day, I would wear pants or khakis, nice top. Then suss it out once you get there.

      As for wearing a variety of types of clothes, I don’t see a problem with that. The point is to look groomed and “professional”. By professional, I don’t mean a suit and tie. I mean clean, well-kept clothes that fit you reasonably well and fit within your office’s clothing standard. Women wear khakis and buttoned shirts too. Are you proposing switching back and forth between women’s clothing and actual men’s clothing (made for men)?

  147. Annie Mouse*

    This has been an interesting week. We were supposed to be back in training for the week but the Beast from the East put paid to that idea. The first day of wintery chaos was a bit confused to start with but ended up with reporting to my nearest location and being tasked. And I had a great couple of days driving around in the snowy countryside keeping our vital service going. We saw buried cars, whiteouts and snow drifts. We also saw communities come together and help each other. So many people offered us a push if they thought we were stuck, shovels to dig us out and thanks and sweets to keep us going. And my colleagues gave me a push when my car got stuck!
    Sooo proud of what we do and where I live this week.
    Very glad to be wrapped up warm on a study day today though!!

  148. staying anon today*

    I’m looking to see if I’m the only one this has happened to or not. Has anyone ever hidden something like a learning difference or mental illness or something from their work/boss and had it backfire on them? I have dyscalculia. Numbers and math are not a normal part of my job and it has never been an issue before. I was asked to assist someone in another division (a peer) on a report. There were numbers and statistics involved. We were hired at the same time but I didn’t really know her. I didn’t tell my boss about the dyscalculia. I don’t know why I was ashamed I guess. I botched the numbers I had to deal with. It messed up the whole report. The other person I was working with provided backups and copies of her work when we were called to the carpet about messing up so badly and making the company look bad in front of clients. She said she didn’t want me to take her down with me. The supervisor of her division told my boss he won’t send anyone to assist our division in the future. My boss is angry with me for not telling him and he says I might be disciplined or end up on a PIP. I am so ashamed I tried to post this last week on the open thread but I couldn’t do it. Am I the only one something like this has happened to? I know I was wrong not to tell my boss but I was embarrassed and now I am in trouble over it.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      No, you’re not.

      I have it too–pretty severely. It limits what sorts of jobs I can do. Exjob was perfect for me because it was all document-related with very little Excel work and almost no math. Then my boss retired, and we were incorporated into a larger department, and the new boss revamped my role into an executive admin position with a ton of budget work. I lost the job because I let my anxiety about the changes get the better of me. Nobody there knew either, until I was put on a PIP for my attitude (my anxiety presents as being pissy, then proceeds to panic attacks if left unchecked). I alluded to it with my old boss, but I never actually told the company–now I wish I had. Unfortunately, even if I’d been open about it, the job had changed so much I couldn’t do it even with accommodation.

      I’ve decided to be open about it upfront, so I can advocate for myself without an employer thinking I just don’t want to do something when I might actually need accommodation. Having a learning disability is not anything you can help. It doesn’t mean you’re stupid. It’s nothing to be embarrassed about. Identification and educational support can help but it has to take place early. I didn’t even know for sure what it was until 2012.

      As to your boss, I would give him a sincere apology and do your best to work through the PIP or whatever discipline they decide on. I would also see HR and ask them about accommodations. The Job Accommodation Network (JAN) at askjan.org has a ton of info about legislature, rights, etc. and it even has helplines you can call to help you figure that out before you talk to them.

      *hug* Good luck with the boss thing. Remember, even if the worst happens, this does not mean you can never get another job. You can and you will.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Many people don’t understand statistics or use them properly – even without having the additional problem of dyscalculia. While I think you should have told your boss that you don’t understand statistics when he assigned you to this project, I would have expected your boss to ask about this before assigning you to work that you have never done at your job before. But, when you saw things going badly, you could have given your boss a heads up. And your coworker, who saw things going badly – her only response was to make sure you would be blamed, as opposed to updating boss?

  149. Drama Mama*

    Anyone here have a small FSA managed in-house? As in one of your coworkers handles all the paperwork rather than a third party? Suddenly Susan wants to see *detailed* info for reimbursement, like drug names, diagnosis codes, etc. I am uncomfortable with the people I work with every day seeing that info, and until this week, a generic receipt from the doctor’s office or pharmacy was sufficient. The company doesn’t offer/use an FSA debit.

    1. Weyrwoman*

      I’d push back on why Susan wants that info – IANAL, but I feel like that detailed info is protected in some manner…

    2. WellRed*

      She doesn’t need to see details. Push back hard. Also, I am not a lawyer or benefits person, but if she is privvy to all the details, HIPPA might come into play. Does the company want to be responsible for the hell that will rain down if she violates it in some way?

      1. Observer*

        She actually probably does need to see this stuff. Our FSA is managed by a fairly large company and they ask for a fair amount of detail.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Has Susan been trained to know that she should not be sharing this information with anyone other than to do her job? Will the company be willing to fire her if she blabs? Is the information that is submitted to her secure? You have a right to know the answers to these questions.

  150. nep*

    I don’t know whether this has ever come up on here, but…Imagine you’re going to interview for a job and the interviewer is Alison.
    How would you feel about that? Would you be excited to show her all the brilliant tips you’ve learned from her, or would you be freaking out because…it’s ALISON?!

    2. Overeducated*

      I would feel insanely self conscious! But also remember that she seems like a reasonable, empathetic person so it might not be so bad. But still more self conscious than normal.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’ve interviewed people before who at the end of the interview have told me that they read AAM. It’s always so nice to hear! (But then on my side, I worry about what they thought of me. Did I live up to whatever they expected??)

    5. Ruth (UK)*

      I’d get too embarrassed and hide under the table and start my new life as an under-table dweller. This isn’t very professional at all, so she wouldn’t hire me – but she’d also struggle to get rid of me, because her table is now my home.

      But on a serious note, I think I get too worked up and overy-thinky in my head over interviews as it is, so I think it would just be another thing that would add to my level of anxiety. Then again, I’d take comfort in knowing that even though I know who SHE is, she doesn’t know who *I* am (other than being the person currently being interviewed). Then again, I might worry that if I did anything too drastically awful, I’d end up being written about in her blog, in a post titled, for example, “My interviewee took residence under an office table and won’t leave”

    6. Gandalf the Nude*

      This is probably the one situation where interview anxiety would overtake me because, try as I might, there’s no way I wouldn’t eventually slip up and say, “By the way, I’m Gandalf the Nude.”

    7. Chaordic One*

      I think I’d have mixed feelings. I respect Alison a lot and would worry about not measuring up, much more so than with most hiring managers because it seems to me that they don’t actually do all that much hiring and most of them are not that great at interviewing. In most interviews, if I don’t get the job I can always tell myself that the interviewers didn’t really understand how much value I’d bring to the position, and I couldn’t really say that so much with Alison. If Alison rejected me, it would sting a little more than usual, even if there were good reasons for doing so.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Well one could develop a mindset that goes like this: “I probably won’t get the job, but I am going to have a rarity: I am going to have a FUN interview.

    9. Anonymous Ampersand*

      I would be star struck. I think once I stopped squee-ing I’d be ok though :)

    10. JamieS*

      I probably wouldn’t visibly react or mention I read AAM for fear the interview would spiral into me demanding to know what’s up with the llama references while Alison frantically calls for security.

  151. A.Ham*

    I am so sick of sexist old white men this week I could scream.
    We are, quite publicly, going through a leadership transition. We announced our new leader a few months ago, and it is a woman (a first for us). She is smart and innovative, and has an excellent plan for the future of our company. Our entire staff is super excited about her. My colleagues are NOT the problem.
    This week we had an event with donors and board members and some other long time supporters where our new leader came into town (she will not start officially until the summer) to talk about her plan for next year. She did a great job! It’s a challenge because people are still quite attached to our current, *beloved*, leader of 20 years. But for the most part everyone was responding really well.
    Then the Q&A started. The amount of man-splaining, and patronizing attitudes, and “I just like to hear myself talk so I am just going to drone on and not actually ask a question” that happened was mind-blowing. It was, of course, just a handful of backward thinking old men that caused a problem and dominated the conversation, but the whole positive atmosphere of the night was really taken down by them.
    she handled it like a champ, and it ended up ok, but what a downer.
    Rant over.

    1. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

      Ugh, I feel you. It shows up in so many weird ways. Currently working with a dude who loves to not pay attention in meetings and then messages me multiple times, on different platforms, later in the day to ask about something that we definitely covered in the meeting. This has happened a bunch of times and about stuff that is not urgent- finally I said, “hey, can you take notes so I don’t have to remember stuff for you?” and it’s gotten a little better. Still hasn’t stopped him from presenting himself as the fun, cool “idea” guy, and me as the sour, grumpy girl person who just wants to do stupid stuff like…planning. And scheduling. And making things actually happen in 3D space. *sigh*

      1. ..Kat..*

        Start replying with “we covered this in meeting you attended. Were you not paying attention?” Does your boss know that he does it and that it creates more work for you? Can you stop answering him so quickly so that it impacts your work less?

  152. TardyTardis*

    Do people besides me have clothes with ‘personalities’? Like, ‘this is the shirt I wear to get an A, but I have to wear something over it because it’s falling apart’, or, ‘this is the shirt I usually get B’s in, and I like it, but I also get traffic tickets when I wear it’? (I finally had to lay the A shirt to rest, while the B shirt got given away to a thrift store).

    I would just enjoy hearing stories about Special Clothes with quasi-magical powers.

    1. Weyrwoman*

      I have clothes that I wear when I need a confidence boost? Like, a tunic top that I love, and I’ll wear when I want to feel more punk/pretty. I have an “interview” shirt that’s this really nice ribbed knit, short-sleeved, purple turtleneck – anytime I’ve interviewed in it I’ve gotten at least a call-back to tell me if I got the job or not.

    2. Ruth (UK)*

      I was actually in the middle of replying when I stopped and thought that this probably goes in tomorrow’s free-for-all open thread, and not today’s work-related one.

      However, if you post it tomorrow, I will definitely reply (especially because I can’t really go anywhere anyway, due to all the snow here).

    3. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I don’t have Special Clothes. But I have Special Jewelry. I have wishbone necklace (as in a small charm, not poultry shrapnel) that has always gotten me to the next round of interviews. I also have a ring my dad wore and a ring my grandfather gave me on a chain, I wear that whenever I need to have on “armor”.

    4. HannahS*

      Hah! I used to try to save my favourite socks on days when I thought I’d be uncomfortable or stressed. Tests? Wear socks with ducks on them. Air travel? Socks with foxes (tragically lost in Brussels Int’l Airport). These days, I make sure I have my coziest (and coziest-looking) wool socks available for those days. Charcoal with black at the heel and toe are like a security blanket.

    5. Emi.*

      I inherited my mother’s East Asian Studies Department sweatshirt from her college days (and by “inherited” I mean I rescued it from the rag bag over her protests) and wore it for Chinese exams. I dunno if it helped but I did get mostly As.

      My shirts are divided into Good Posture Shirts and Okay To Slouch shirts, which I try to wear only at home.

    6. KayEss*

      I try not to do that, because inevitably what happens to me is clothing I really like winds up with “B shirt” status because of a freak incident where I like… wore it for travel because it’s comforting and calming, but then threw up on the plane and had to spend half an hour covered in humiliation and vomit. Finding clothing I actually like is really hard, so forming event-based associations isn’t beneficial if one really bad day will ruin my favorite shirt forever.

    7. Lissa*

      I used to have a joking “bad luck shirt” because I happened to be wearing it both while I had a medical situation, and then again on the day of Political Event That Shall Not Be Named. I wore it a few times to get rid of the bad luck, and then it disappeared! I have no idea where it is now but I like to think it’s hiding in my apartment collecting bad luck.

    9. DDJ*

      I definitely have a “makes me feel like a badass professional” clothes. One particular outfit, which honestly is pretty run-of-the-mill, makes me feel awesome and confident every time I wear it. I save it for special days (when I’m conducting interviews, meetings with third parties, big meetings) and it’s nice to have something like that. I’ve been slowly working on converting my whole work wardrobe so that I can feel like that all the time, but it’s definitely a work in progress.

      Although it’s sort of backfired because I like all the individual pieces, but I have trouble wearing them if they’re not in “the outfit.” Like, I can’t just wear the blouse with a cardigan and a different pair of pants, because it goes with the black pants and the green blazer.

      If you haven’t read The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up by Marie Kondo, I highly recommend it. The first thing she recommends organizing is clothes, and she suggests holding every single article of clothing next to your body to see how it “feels.”

      It’s made a huge difference to me. I went from wearing blah, “they’ll do” pants and “eh, it’s comfortable and fairly professional” tops (like, company-branded polos), and now I actually wear blouses and cardigans and pants that fit properly, and accessories! And I feel better.

    11. Cute Li'l UFO*

      I definitely have those. I have a few “interview ____” that replaced my former “interview dress” that had a black pencil skirt attached to a blue secretary blouse. Finally outgrew the Interview Dress (literally) a couple years ago but I have some other similar things. Anything that makes me feel strong and confident is a high contender and also with necklines I know I don’t have to mess around with or whatever. I’ve had a Burberry trench coat for 13 years that looks as incredible as the day I received it. It makes me feel protected and even when it’s windy I can show up and my outfit won’t be untidy. Depending on what shirt I’m wearing I might wear my Tiffany necklace but since they can make noise, sometimes I just carry them in my purse. One was a gift from an ex (we’re still great friends) and the other has a very important date engraved on it. Not really a date that I explain to people I’ve just met, but keeping it as a reminder of how far I’ve come makes me happy.

      I do seem to have the habit of finding all the right clothes in all the right colors. Acid yellow Valentino lace skirt? Neon green silk Alice + Olivia top? I’ve always been drawn to bold colors, to say the least. I used to tell myself things like “This dress got me all the interviews and my jobs!” and then I realized it was the ONLY thing I’d wear for them!

  153. Deadlines shmeadlines?*

    Holy smokes this week has been inTENSE. More major deadlines than any one person can manage at a time, but I think it will all work out in the end. (I committed to my boss to get something to a third party “on Friday” and when I talked to the third party, I asked her if “before the work day starts on Monday” was equivalent in her mind to “on Friday.” She said yes, so as long as neither her boss nor my boss get involves, I should be okay.) On top of the major deadlines, today is the last day for one of my employees–part of the major deadlines is the work to get his position posted–so I need to do all of the regular wrap-up stuff with him. He’s been working on a MAJOR project through this morning so there’s a lot to wrap up!

  154. Weyrwoman*

    I have yays and nays today!

    Yays!:
    * Going for a second round phone interview for a company in a field that I love, with better pay and similar benefits.
    * Got accepted to two of the four online degree programs for a BS in Cybersecurity! (I’m still dancing inside my head for this, cause one of them is my preferred school!) This will be my third undergrad degree and second bachelors.

    Nays:
    * My cat caused a situation two nights ago that spilled water on my expensive gaming laptop and now it won’t boot properly. I’m taking it to a repair shop tomorrow but right now I’m just ;_;

    I can start classes as early as April 2, but whyyyyyy did my laptop have to possibly die now of all times :(

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Congrats! I feel you on that laptop….my husband and I share a gaming laptop, and he spilled taco juice on it once and it ruined the keyboard. So we got another one (it was time to upgrade anyway), and then the cat knocked something heavy onto it and knocked out a couple keys. So now we must live with missing keys until it’s time for the next upgrade!

  155. BookCocoon*

    This is more of a vent about how waiting is hard.

    I spent about two months in a very thoughtful, very thorough interview process with an organization I’m excited about. Last week HR scheduled a call with me in which they essentially said they were trying to wrap things up as soon as possible, but what was my timeline and was it going to cause problems if they took too long. I told them honestly that I’m not active job seeking right now and applied for the position because I’m genuinely excited about it, so they’re not going to lose me to another offer at this point, and she seemed relieved. Since I knew that they were expanding their team and adding more of this position, I asked whether I would be considered in the future if I wasn’t selected this time, and she was VERY emphatic that I would be and said, “Everyone was extremely impressed with you throughout the entire interview process.”

    So now it’s been a week and a half and I’m just waiting. I know they haven’t called my references yet. I’m trying not to get my hopes up too much, but based on that phone call it sounds like they want to make me an offer. Right now at work I’m wrapping up one big project and will be starting another one mid-March, so it’s hard to stay focused on preparing for the next project when I know I might not be here.

    From discussing with friends everyone confirms my impression that the phone call was very promising and the consensus seems to be that because they’re hiring for two of the same position, they’re probably trying to get both nailed down to on-board both at the same time. I had originally applied for a different position that would have been a stretch, and when this one (one step down) opened up they asked if I wanted to interview for that instead so I wasn’t qualified for the original one yet, so I think I got into the second position’s interview process much earlier than other candidates. But man… waiting is hard.

    1. Chaordic One*

      Oh, I can relate. I applied for several jobs last week that had application deadlines of February 28, and now I’m waiting to hear back from them and, so far, nothing. Maybe next week.

    2. Buu*

      If they are expanding and the delay is funding approval it may be a case of waiting a few weeks for the new financial year.

    3. BookCocoon*

      …And I just found out I didn’t get the job. I am honestly relieved that the anxiety of waiting is over!

      They did reiterate that they really liked me and hope that they will have another position open soon and that I would still consider working for them. So that’s basically the nicest possible rejection I could have gotten :)

      1. Buu*

        Sorry to hear that, at least you know. You can at least take some pride in the fact you presented yourself well.

  156. Helena Handbasket*

    Where is the line between mentor and manager? I know that your manager will inevitably mentor you in some aspects, since they are giving direct feedback to help you succeed, but is there a clear distinction? I am in my first job out of college and though I have good rapport with my manager and we do have a good and trusting relationship, I want to avoid making them feel like I am depending on them for advice outside of what a manager would be expected to give (personal career advice, etc.). They have been happy to guide me along so far but I don’t want to reach a point where I make them feel uncomfortable and obligated to help me.

    1. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

      Can you provide a specific example of a question you would like to ask your manager? You mention personal career advice, which could be career advancement/development in general, which doesn’t sound unreasonable.

      1. Helena Handbasket*

        Things like how they progressed in the company, which people would be most beneficial to form relationships with, what they considered when they were applying to internal positions. My manager also just agreed to spend a significant amount of time personally preparing me to interview for a promotion that I ended up getting – they were out of the office when they got the email notification but still called in to let me know and congratulate me. I’m so grateful for the support, but am now unsure if I am starting to take advantage of their kindness and asking for too much.

        1. CM*

          Asking how they progressed int he company is a good first step. That indicates your interest. If they shut that down or give a short answer, then stop.

    2. CM*

      I would say that a manager is interested in helping you succeed at your current job while a mentor is interested in helping you advance in your career. The two can overlap or not depending on circumstances.

  157. nep*

    Hope this is OK for the work-related thread — I’m asking about people’s knowledge of or experience with an organisation, but I’m asking because I’m thinking of applying there.
    Anyone have experience with Rotary International? I like (the bit I know about) what they do around the world, but I’m not crazy about the lack of women in leadership, and the fact that women weren’t even *allowed* till pretty recently. I’ve not ruled out applying (it would be a contractor sort of thing, not permanent at their offices) — I’m interested in hearing of people’s direct experiences with Rotary, good or bad.
    (Understand if this needs to wait till Sat/Sun thread.)

    1. anyone out there but me*

      I like Rotary too, for what they do around the world and in their local communities. Rotary is a great charity organization, IMO.

      Here is what I found the catch to be, for me at least. They have a pretty stringent attendance policy for meetings. They meet once per week and sometimes that is hard to do for someone with a very busy schedule. The answer to missing is to do a make-up session online. Again, might be simple for some, but schedule depending, maybe not.

      To me, there is an upside to the attendance policy. I have met so many business people who join organizations just for the sake of joining, to put it on their resume or CV. They have no intention of actually participating. The attendance policy does tend to weed those out. So, that’s good.

      I believe they also require each member to serve on a committee within the local chapter, so that means more meetings. I am not certain that is true of all chapters, but it was with mine when I was a member.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I’d check it out if I were you.
      My former boss, now more a friend than anything, belongs to a local Rotary. This is a person who I highly admire and respect. His group has many projects including international projects. Every time I see him he has to tell me about his international project. I could go on, but it’s too identifying. However, the punchline is this terrific person has found a way to grow himself, round out his life, and make a contribution to our world. As the years have gone by my friend has become more centered and more content. Just my opinion but I think the Rotary has something to do with that.

      If the group was sexist, ageist or anything, my friend would not have stayed with the group. He is a very inclusive person.

      If this is the type of person the Rotary in your area attracts then it will probably put you in with a real good group of people. Am trying to keep my excitement here low key because as they say, YMMV.

      1. nep*

        Cool. Thanks for this insight.
        (Part of me says — hey, even if the organisation’s got a sexism issue (or history), if I get the gig it’ll be one more woman there.)

  158. Not in the Witness Protection Program*

    I work in the corporate office of a small company with about 75 employees. My employer uses photos of employees in pretty much any way it wants, including posting large numbers of candid photos of employees (taken at company events, for example) on social media, where the photos are available to the public, as well as posting on the company intranet. The company also posts photos of employees’ family, children and friends who are attending the events, as well as other third parties who are involved. The company is very into promotion on social media, but this is being done at the expense of personal privacy. I raised this issue with my employer, and following that, to its credit, the company solicited a consent to use of image on social media from each employee, which I declined to give. In fact, there was already a general consent to use of image embedded in the company’s confidentiality agreement, which all employees must sign, and I try to be vigilant about not having my picture taken unnecessarily because of that agreement. But with so many co-workers taking candid photos at work and at company events, it has become difficult to manage. Despite the company’s solicitation of the consent related to social media, the internal usage of photos continues with abandon.

    I understand the use of a photo for the employee directory and other traditional business purposes. But my employer seems intent on finding novel ways to use employee photos. I don’t want to see my photo hanging on the wall in the reception area, or in a huge collage decorating a conference room (yes, they did that). I don’t want my unflattering candid photo in the annual company wall calendar that is distributed to employees (yes, they did that). On a related privacy note, I also don’t want my birth date–month and day–posted prominently on the home page of the company intranet, to make sure that everyone knows it’s my birthday (yes, they did that). I have declined to have my photo taken and to be on video on multiple occasions. I no longer pose for group photos, because they will be put on social media. I have asked for my photo to be removed from a few places, but not the directory or any place that seems a reasonable, professional and internal business use. As a result of my efforts to control the use of my image, I am now a designated misanthrope. Oops.

    Am I over-reacting to this? Are my actions reasonable? I have worked in quite a few corporate offices, in various industries, but I have never encountered this issue.

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      It sounds like they’re not taking you seriously for whatever reason. Maybe you need to be more explicit and site a serious reason like you previously had a stalker or something like that (even though it’s a fib). For all you know they’re saying “oh that Jane I don’t know why she hates her pics so much she looks great!”

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Well she doesn’t have to fib–it’s a good reason for pushing back on the policy, or at least on making the policy opt-in rather than opt-out. It’s possible they could have an employee, or hire one in future, who would have that concern.

        Either way, it should be an opt-in thing because not everyone is comfortable having pictures of themselves out there. I know people who don’t mind having them taken if they’re kept private but don’t want them on the internet because they have no idea what the photo can end up being used for.

    2. Midlife Job Crisis*

      Maybe speak with your manager further or ask your colleagues what they think? Granted, it sounds like your company wants to be super social, but you should be able to voice what you’re comfortable with doing.

    3. bb-great*

      Honestly, it sounds like a culture mismatch. I don’t think you’re unreasonable for not wanting to have your photo shared and I wouldn’t like it either. But it sounds like even if no one had a problem with that in theory, in practice it’s always going to be a hassle because of the norms at your company. I’d say it’s a judgement call for you, whether the job is worth the vigilance, or whether the vigilance is going to eventually make you stand out in a bad way and affect your standing in the office.

  159. Tuna Casserole*

    I’m looking for lunch suggestions. I bring my lunch everyday; but for the next week I will not have access to the staff kitchen as new carpet is being installed. So, what can I bring for lunch that doesn’t require a fridge or a microwave?

    2. Zathras*

      I might be in the minority on this but I wouldn’t worry about not having the refrigerator. I don’t put my lunch in the fridge at work unless I’m going to leave it overnight (e.g. if I brought my lunch but there was surprise free food so I ate that instead). As long as I’m not storing it outside in July in direct sunlight, if it was in my fridge this morning it’s still fine at noon. YMMV, but in that case there’s also the insulated lunch bag + ice pack option.

      If I won’t have the ability to heat my lunch I usually default to a sandwich, or sometimes I’ll do a piece of baguette (or similar crusty bread) with a chunk of cheese and piece of fruit. Leftover pizza is also still delicious at room temperature.

      1. Dr. Doll*

        I’m like you, I don’t worry about non-refrigeration for a few hours a bit. And, I am happy to eat things at room temp that most people would want to heat up, like tuna casserole. Not YOU, Tuna Casserole! ;-)

    3. HannahS*

      Cheddar and lettuce sandwich with some carrot sticks, cherry tomatoes, and/or cucumber slices in a tupperware is a standard stick-it-in-my-bag and carry it around all day lunch for me. Fruit, too. A small container of hummus with crackers or vegetables would be nice. I don’t really worry about cheese and veggies being out of the fridge for the time I leave until lunch. Hardboiled eggs, as well, I wouldn’t worry about, although I’d leave them in the shell.

    4. Stranger than fiction*

      Funny your name, because I was going to suggest those vacuum packed packages of tuna, which they have all different flavors now.

    6. Librarygal30*

      An insulated lunch bag would work. I have salad almost every day, and keep the lunch bag in my office, since our fridge is used by students, faculty, and staff ( I work for a super small university), and we run out of room quickly.

  160. Joy*

    There is a group of people that go to lunch regularly from my office. One day I asked if I could join them. They said, no. that this was a group of ‘ethnic group deleted’ people only.

    Ok, so it is rude. But, is that a reason for any of them to get fired? None of them are my boss. Just co-workers.

    1. fposte*

      There’s a lot of room between “firing” and “accepting.” Unless there was something else that shed a different light on the situation, as a manager I’d tell them to knock it off big time, but I wouldn’t immediately fire them as long as they did.

    2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I just want to make sure I understand. So are you an alpaca and it’s a group of llamas going?

      If that’s the case, I’m not sure if it’s fireable. But that might depend on your company policy. I just looked through our company handbook, and it seems in the grey area of what we have. Regardless, it might be worth bringing up with your manager.

    3. Why Oh Why Does this keep happening?*

      Not fired, but possibly disciplined. More likely, HR would instruct HeadBoss or GrandBoss to have mandatory diversity training.

  161. Stranger than fiction*

    Just wanted to share this outside-the-norm experience my friend recently had with a recruiter, twice actually.
    He had two experiences recently with two different outside recruiters – one where they said they’d schedule an interview that week and then ghosted; one where he’d gone on an interview and they said everything had gone great and they’d schedule a second interview and then ghosted…
    Well, he’s notoriously direct and of course frustrated because he’s been looking for a while (thinks it’s because he has no degree but no one has come right out and said that).
    So he emailed one of these these two recruiters last week and politely called them out on their behavior and then called their boss! Next day, he had an offer for a 6 month contract! Feeling all confident that had worked, he then called the other recruiter and did the same thing. Next day, he had another job offer for a permanent position and is now t deciding which one to take!
    I know Alison would probably be shocked and not advise this method but for whatever reason, it worked. Two times in a row to boot!
    Anyone ever have or hear of such an experience??

  162. Resigning while interviewing for new jobs*

    Need some advice! I’m planning on turning in my 2 weeks notice on Monday. I don’t have another job lined up yet, but I need to get out of this place. I have enough saved up for 10 months, maybe more if I really cut back.

    I’m currently in various stages of the interview process with 3 companies. My question is, do I need to disclose in any way that I’ve resigned? I marked currently employed on all the applications I’d filled out, which was true at the time.

    Also, any tips on what to tell my current employer? I can’t say I’m leaving for a new job quite yet, and even though I’m frustrated with them I’d like to leave on a relatively good note.

    1. CM*

      I think you can wait to bring up your resignation until it is relevant. If they ask for an updated resume or mention your current employer it gives you a good opening.

    2. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

      I understand there are intolerable or unacceptable situations in the workplace, but I want to point out that there is a disadvantage to job hunting while you are unemployed. There is a bias against the unemployed candidate. It’s not fair, but it exists.

      The problem I see is that during each interview with each person, you are presenting your resume as accurate. (I assume you have a resume.) After your last day working at your current job, if you continue interviewing with new people, it feels dishonest to continue to present that same resume with new interviewers. I would also be surprised if it doesn’t somehow come up in the interview discussion. It’s a gamble. If you volunteer the information immediately after your last day of work, it may disadvantage you if you are still interviewing. On the other hand, if you don’t volunteer the information in a timely manner, and they find out later, it may disadvantage you even more, if it looks like you were hiding it.

      I don’t know your exact situation, but if it was me, I would stay in my current job, not say a thing to my current employer, and see if these prospects lead to a job offer before I quit my old job. But I am, admittedly, very conservative in this area.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        I understand what you’re saying and totally believe that bias exists, BUT I also know, from people close to me that it’s happened to, sometimes there’s just no way to job hint and interview when you’re in a toxic situation. Especially if one of the toxic symptoms is ungodly amount of hours worked. Not only that, I have a friend that’s currently got the time to look, but his brain is so jumbled and confidence so low from working at the current place, he’s bombed his last two interviews (where normally he would have aved it). Said he’s just not on his game ‘cause the place has gotten to him so badly. Whereas last time, he resigned and took a couple weeks to decompress and did well in interviews, although he also got drilled about the reason he resigned from a couple interviewers too. Sometimes you just can’t win!
        But as far as this Op, I believe they already resigned, so I think they can get away with not saying anything for a few weeks. After that, it’s going to look bad if they don’t update the resume from “present” to March or whatever.

        1. Resigning OP*

          OP here! To clarify, I haven’t actually resigned yet, but am planning on doing so on Monday.

          Stranger than fiction pretty much has the situation pegged. I am working an insane amount of hours. I have 4 interviews lined up over the next 2 weeks, so it’s already getting very difficult to manage. I would likely give a 3 week notice to my current employer, so I would still technically be employed during the interviews that I have lined up… just don’t want to do anything that would be considered improper and put a potential offer at risk.

  163. BizzieLizzie*

    Feeling down & dumb
    Made a couple of mistakes at work this week including 1 really bad one, which I suspect is close to a fire-able offence.
    Got my boss & bosses boss shouted at. Caused extra work and hassle for colleagues & customer. Niggling feeling that its seen as not only incompetent but dishonest (though not sure why as can’t see what I had to gain either way).
    In hindsight – ‘how could i have been so stupid’ – at the time blissfully ignorant, thought I was doing a fine thing.

    Well nothing I can do now only hope for the best & brace for the fallout.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Oh this is so hard. Take responsibility for the parts that are actually yours. Sometimes (not always) people can salvage a bad situation by being forth right and being willing to pull out all the stops to fix it. I am thinking of credit card guy. Will try to post the link in a reply below. He is an excellent example of doing everything in his power to remedy what happened.

  164. Little Bean*

    Has anyone ever been to a business meeting that turned out not at all what you thought it was, and honestly, kind of hostile? Recently, a colleague asked me to meet with her director because she said he was interested in the work I do. Except as soon as I sat down, the director’s first question was “what do you do?” and his second question was “so, what can we help you with?”. And my thought was, I don’t know, you’re the one who invited me to this meeting! I was thrown but came up with something on the spot that I could thought we could collaborate on. The director then proceeded to make it sound like it would be a huge inconvenience and I was making a lot of demands – the whole time, I was thinking, I don’t even really need this thing, I was just answering your question! He also insulted the work I do as “fluffy”, and made several inaccurate statements about my field (things that I am 100% positive about and that do not have room for negotiation, like “oh, teapot spouts and handles are the same thing” and I’m like, no, I make teapots for a living and spouts and handles are definitely not the same thing). Anyway, I was flustered throughout the meeting and I feel like my face was probably showing my emotions a little bit. I tried my best to keep it together and it did end on an ok note. But I’m really uncomfortable with the idea of working with this guy anymore. Any ideas how to handle it if we have to meet again?

    1. crying at work is fun!*

      If he asks about meeting again, and politically at work you can’t straight turn him down, can you say you’re really busy with stuff ,but you’d be willing to answer some questions via e-mail? That would give you a bit of a screen to help.

    2. Trillion*

      Sounds like a jerk! Why do people have to be such jerks?! And what’s with the meetings just for meetings’ sake?!

    3. Buu*

      I think you should have explained your colleague asked for you time, as it sounds like they instigated it. It’s not up to you to guess what they are thinking. Perhaps ask the colleague about it?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, it sounds like you were set up to walk into a hornet’s nest here and you were not clued in on that part. I would check with the cohort and ask, “What went wrong here?”

    4. Earthwalker*

      I had an uncomfortable meeting with a senior manager who was trying out his idea to have one-on-ones with random individuals in order to “do communication.” I only knew this because I asked his admin what I should prepare since he’d given me no agenda. I was still somewhat taken aback to walk in and have him ask, “So…what do you want to talk about?” as if I had initiated the session. He was dismissive and defensive until I switched to bland comments about what a great organization we have. I suspect he didn’t want to listen but to check off a “communication done” box. Your description sounds a lot like that meeting. (If your director has a friendly admin, you might be able to get details.) I never had a second turn on the hot seat because the effort didn’t last long. Maybe you won’t have another meeting either.

  165. Joanne*

    I wanted to give an update. I recently wrote in asking when I would get my things back from my previous office, and I’ve received them, minus a few things. I’m now in a new office, under new management and in a different agency component and really liking it.

    I’m just wondering-when is the best time to discuss benefits with the manager. It was touched upon briefly during the interview and they told me to think about it, and I told them I would like to do my RDO schedule on Fridays, since almost all the other contractors take theirs on Mondays. When is a good time to start an RDO schedule, and how long in general should you be at a job to start discussing these benefits?

  166. Just Peachy*

    I’m an hourly employee. I will have 82 hours (2 hours OT) for the current 2 week pay period by the time I clock in from lunch today at 1:30 PM. I rarely get OT at my job, but attended a workshop (required for all employees 2 years into their tenure) last week at our corporate office, in which I worked several 10 hour days.

    Would it be okay to ask by boss to go home early today? I have done this in the past the few times I’ve had overtime, but I have a new manager now. He’s been here for about a month and seems very laid back overall, but I don’t want him to think I’m a slacker (I have a very good reputation here). However, I’ve had a slow week and don’t see any reason to be here all afternoon – I would literally just be sitting at my computer with nothing to do, getting paid. I would rather be home than collect more overtime. I was thinking of asking to go home about an hour early (at 3:30), just so I don’t look like a total slacker for leaving at lunchtime.

    1. WG*

      Federal law required (with a few exceptions, such as government employees) that OT be evaluated on a weekly basis. Even though your pay period is two weeks long, OT calculation is for each individual week. So hours worked last week can’t carry to this week. If you worked 42 hours last week, you employer is required to pay you 2 hours of OT for that week.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      This probably won’t go over well, I would not do it. However, you could ask for something else to work on as you are not busy. Sometimes that will cause bosses to say, “Well you might leave early if you want.”

  167. happyCat*

    I am not sure if I over reacted:
    A casual friend of mine, Fred, recently lost his job. My company is currently hiring for two roles, we need multiple people. The role Fred suits best is role 1. For role 1 we don’t need many people, and the role is very easy to fill as there is no formal training or certification needed.
    Role 2 is MUCH harder to fill, and that is the one we are actively recruiting and interviewing for it.
    Que me asking my work mate, same level as me, who is doing the interviewing, if he would interview my friend, as a favour to me, and he agreed. This time of year is incredibly busy, so I was grateful to work mate for agreeing to meet Fred. I sent along Fred’s resume and set the interview up.

    I sent an invite from my work email address to Fred, listing date, time, location and who he would be meeting with, asking him to reply if this would work for him.
    AND nothing from Fred. Two days. Nothing.
    I messaged Fred by text. Another day goes by.
    Nothing. (we have and do communicate via text)
    I see him on FB Messenger, so I try there. ‘Hey Fred, did you get my email? Can you make the interview?”
    Fred replies ‘sure, tell me when and where… ‘ I tell him and then I also remind him the week before said interview.
    The DAY of the interview as Fred’s time gets close, I send him a friendly ‘hey see you soon!’
    Fred replies, ‘Actually I was just going to tell you, I can’t make it in, I did not sleep well and don’t think I would give a good interview.’
    I call Fred, and let him know, it will be super relaxed, and basically, if he shows up and can be decent, he will have the job. Fred says he is just not up to it, but could I reschedule him for when he feels better?

    And wow, was I pissed. Fred pretty much had a guaranteed job! And I know he is struggling as he is often asking for money (I have given him money too) Which I know isn’t smart, but I felt bad for him, he and his wife are lovely people.

    But all of that aside, I feel really bad for being so upset. I calmly told Fred I could not get him another interview as this one was a favour, and I could not call two favours for this. He said he understood, and if we were hiring again to think of him. Which left me beyond frustrated. I told him I was disappointed, and that as a friend I understood, but as someone that takes her job seriously, I was not impressed with him.

    I wish I had been more sympathetic.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Me too. Of course you’re upset! He caused you to burn political capital with a colleague!

    2. Manders*

      I had a similar thing happen to me! To be honest, it did damage my impression of him as a person, and was a part of a bigger picture I hadn’t seen before of him taking other people for granted.

      In my case, I think the guy I was trying to help may actually have been lying to his financially supportive partner about job hunting, and I accidentally called his bluff by having a job available. I don’t know what’s going on with Fred, but his behavior was so odd that I think some frustration on your part is normal. If I were you I’d back way, way off on doing favors for Fred–no more job hunting help, and definitely no more money.

    3. MuseumChick*

      You are 100% justified in being upset and I’ll even go so far as to say that you and the people around Fred need to be a little less sympathetic to him. He blew you off multiple times, is asking for money from multiple people (which he is getting), and doesn’t have enough interest to take low hanging fruit to support his family.

      Don’t feel bad. Fred has a lot of growing up to do.

    4. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I would be upset too…I don’t think I would have even gone so far as to get him the interview, especially as he was non-responsive earlier. It’s a good desire to want to help someone get a job, but this is all on Fred.

    5. GigglyPuff*

      Fred is a moron.
      I just don’t get people like this.
      I mean I just flew out of town for an all day interview with dinner the night before. I got maybe 3-4 hours of sleep the night before, my flight was at 6am, so I had to leave at 4am for the airport. A new medication I was taking caused me to have nausea and throw up multiple times all day, couldn’t even keep liquids down (that was not on my airport bucket list). I had a presentation that I hadn’t polished. It was a nightmare, but you do it. Luckily I didn’t have to take the medication that night so I was good for the day of the interview, but I’ve been playing catch up the rest of the week.
      I mean you do what you have to get the job. Fred is a moron and thank you for being firm. Honestly I’m the least confrontational person, and I would’ve been like WTF?

    6. Little Bean*

      Well, the only thing I can’t tell from this story is whether Fred was actually interested in this job in the first place. I mean, I suppose someone who is unemployed and asking others for money probably shouldn’t be too picky, but if this job would be a big step down for him or something he’s just not interested in doing, I can see why he might not be jumping at the chance to interview. If he specifically asked you for help finding a job, then I totally see why you’d be upset after putting in all that effort.

      1. Irene Adler*

        I agree. Fred didn’t ask for you to set him up with an interview.
        But he handled this poorly. So yes, I can see some justified anger over this.
        If Fred was not interested in the position, he should have said so right after the first contact was made regarding the interview. Ignoring the invite was the wrong way to go about that.
        From what was written, he appears to be someone who avoids confrontation or does not like telling people things that might be disagreeable to them. Man up!

    7. Susan K*

      You have every right to be upset. You went out on a limb to help Fred get this interview, and not only did he fail to show appreciation for your help, but he made you look bad by not showing up after you recommended him. You may have dodged a bullet here, though, because it looks like Fred is a seriously flaky and unreliable person, and if your company had hired him and he pulled the same kind of behavior on the job, it could have hurt your credibility since you were the one who recommended him.

    8. Squeeble*

      Wait, you told him you could not get him another interview, and he said he understood and then immediately said your company should “think of him” when they’re hiring again?

      This guy does. not. get. it.

    9. Ruth (UK)*

      It sounds like Fred either doesn’t realise or doesn’t care (or a bit of both) how much you went out of your way to try and help him.

      He was difficult to get hold of, asked you when and where after you had put that in the email already, and then accepted the interview initially, but then called it off (and it sounds like he was really blasé about that).

      If you otherwise like Fred (and his wife) and want to remain friends with them, then I hope this won’t change too much how you feel about him BUT I certainly would recommend against doing him any more similar favours in the future.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      You tried.
      We really can’t help the Freds of the world. They won’t let us.

    11. Casuan*

      HappyCat, I wouldn’t use the term over-reacted although I do think you have reason to be vexed. And you could have done things a little differently. To be clear, I think it’s cool you went out of your way to help your friend & I share your indignation from Fred’s attitudes.

      My understanding is that you arranged a cold-interview for Fred…?
      If so, probably you should have asked Fred if he was interested in the position. Even if this was the perfect job for him, really it was the perfect job for him to you. Regardless of his financial needs, Fred could have several valid reasons for not taking the interview.

      That said, If this were true, then Fred should have been candid with you from the start. If someone doesn’t reply to a time-sensitive written request, it’s reasonable to assume that it didn’t go through. At some point just pick up the telephone & call.
      It’s vexing that Fred admitted he received your message & couldn’t bother to reply. And unless there’s an emergency, there’s no excuse for his same-day cancellation— which he seemed to bother sending only because you texted him that you’d see him soon.

      You can use your sympathy now in that Fred seems depressed. Depending on your relationship, you might consider asking him or otherwise asking if you can help. This help should not be getting another interview for him; that boat has sailed.

      It’s never wrong to try to help someone in good faith; in this case you used political capital & risked a ding to your reputation. Just be certain to thank your colleague for his willingness to interview Fred & know that it’s probably a good thing Fred doesn’t work with you because if he did & used his laissez-faire communication style then your reputation would get a dent [aka a ding-plus].

      1. Hellanon*

        If somebody tries to do you a favor you are not interested in, the thing to do is immediately say, “Oh, hey, thank you for thinking of me, but that’s not something I am interested in – can we cancel it?” not string the friend out in a way that promises to make things worse.

      2. happyCat*

        Thanks, that is a lot of very good advice! I had asked him if he was interested before setting the interview up for him, but I can see why it appeared I just went ahead and did it.. Fred had a clear understanding of the job, and we talked in person as to how suitable he might be for it. Now that I have calmed down, I can understand that he may have agreed to said interview to boost his own confidence, or for some other personal reason that I won’t understand. As others have pointed out, it might change our relationship, but I like the idea of focusing on what (outside of work) I can do to be a good friend.

    12. Hellanon*

      Sympathetic? No, nonsense, “pissed off” is a much more reasonable response. I wouldn’t loan him any more money either.

  168. em*

    I have a networking question.

    A girl I attended college with works at a company that I’m really interested in and submitted an application to this week. We were in the same program but she was a year ahead of me and we only had one class together. She definitely doesn’t know who I am. We aren’t connected on linkedin, but would it be okay to reach out to her and ask her about the company and how she got started there? I am having trouble breaking into what I perceive as a difficult/competitive industry to break into (public policy analyst/research) and feel like I need all the help I can get.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think it would be okay, in the way you describe – asking about the company and how she got started, and not really as a “plz recommend” kind of way.

    2. Ebrofin*

      Yes, I think that’s fine. It would be good if you added that you don’t expect her to help you get a job, but that you do want her advice or insights. Otherwise, she might be hesitant thinking you are asking for a recommendation which she can’t give because she doesn’t know you. Once you’ve connected, she can decide if she wants to offer help.

    3. Ambpersand*

      I don’t think it would hurt! It’s an innocent enough request (since you aren’t asking her for a reference or anything while she doesn’t know you), and if I were in her shoes I’d be open to a coffee chat about it.

    4. Little Bean*

      I think that’s totally fine! I once reached out to someone who was an alumna of my program. We weren’t even there at the same time and never met each other, but it was a smallish program and she was super happy to help out. I’m the same way – I love to find out I have a connection with people and it makes me more inclined to help.

  169. AnonyMouse*

    I missed last week’s open thread, but I figured I’d share some updates on my job search! So I’ve been contacted about three positions, so I feel good that my application materials seem to be in order. The first position unfortunately didn’t work out (I’m guessing it had to do with the start date, which I posted about two weeks ago. They were looking for someone to start basically within the next 2-3 weeks and I knew realistically I couldn’t make that happen), and I got the decline email yesterday. Second interview was also yesterday, and I know based on the interaction that the position is not the right fit. I have another interview next week that I’m very hopeful for (the phone interview went very well), so hopefully the third time is a charm!

  170. Elizabeth West*

    No word from any applications.
    I got up super early to protest today, so hopefully that will help reset my body clock, which has defaulted to the hours of 1-8 am. D: That’s not very conducive to an office job, LOL.

    And a bright spot in the week:

    I won a Goodreads giveaway of Alison’s new book!!!!! \0/

    3. Caledonia*

      Nah humbug about the job silence but hurrah for free book, esp as it’s Allison’s!

  171. Ebrofin*

    I would welcome some insights about my follow up note after a job interview. Today I had a panel interview for a job that based on the description is a good match for my skills, at a company with a very good reputation. The job is for a senior leader, setting strategy and policy and working with the board. The questions from the hiring manager were very broad, but I’ve practiced to expect almost anything, and I did OK.

    One of the interviewers was very antagonistic, interrupting both the hiring manager and me, and even spent a few minutes lecturing me about an answer he didn’t agree with. The questions from the antagonistic interviewer also weren’t well aligned with job description, for example, asking detailed questions about shearing llamas when the job is for a member of the leadership team. I do understand that companies want to make sure you have a good understanding of the work, and that you can be hands on, but the confrontational approach was not comfortable for me. If it makes a difference, he is a contractor and not an employee. We ended up not discussing a lot of things in the job because we went off on these tangents.

    I’d have to seek out the hiring manager’s email to send a follow up, but should I even send one? I have mixed feelings, as the company does have a good reputation and my other interactions with them were positive. Today’s interview gave me a negative impression, and I’m less positive about working for them now. I see my options as:
    1. No follow up email, and just see what happens (I am leaning this way.)
    2. Send a follow up email, and mention that they seem to want someone with more detailed X than I have but here’s what I am great at from the role. (This is what my husband suggests)
    3. Send a follow up, mention a few of my strengths, and move on. Again, I would still have to ferret out her mail.

    Writing this out has helped! I think I also needed a little commiseration, why would you invite someone to interview with you and then allow one interviewer to dominate the conversation and be antagonistic? If you don’t think I’m a good match, then don’t bring me in for an interview! I don’t mind investing the time, but I do mind showing up to be treated poorly!

    1. crying at work is fun!*

      I think it hurts nothing to send out the e-mail. If you don’t still want the job, you could use it as an opportunity to withdraw from the process. If you do still want the job, the third one sounds good, and maybe if you didn’t get your questions answered due to the loud dude, you could add it in there.

    2. Trillion*

      I think the third is good. It gives you more time to think about it and research the company. Perhaps you’ll have another interview and get another shot at assessing them. You can always withdraw later if you would like.

  172. KK*

    Hi all, it’s me, the girl whose boss got fired at Waffle House 6 months ago for unethical behavior.

    Anyway, just wanted to let everyone know that ex-boss has recently been contacting sales reps in our office. He’s now working as a manager for a roofing company (we are a janitorial/equipment supply company), and has been giving our sales reps potential leads of people in his new industry who he thinks could be potential customers at our new company. Now, just today, he has faxed in an account application for his new company to become a customer of ours. He also requested a quote from one of our sales reps on thousands of dollars worth of equipment.

    It’s just super odd to me that he’s trying to connect with people at our company after the manner in which he got fired!

    1. T3k*

      I’d be very iffy about his kind of behavior. Depending how vindictive the guy is, part of me wonders if he’s trying to set something up to try and blame you guys for.

      1. Buu*

        Either a scam or he’s lied about how he lost his job and is trying to prove he’s still on good terms.

    2. Observer*

      Is he asking the reps for a cut of the accounts he’s sending along? Is he going to expect a kickback from the reps for the business of his current company?

  173. Mbarr*

    Director: Hey, can you lead a presentation introducing our department next week?
    Me: Sure, but can someone sit in on it in case there are questions I can’t answer.
    Director: Sure me, and [other manager from the department] will attend.
    Me internally: Then why don’t you guys lead this presentation?!

    1. Teapot librarian*

      Ooh, maybe they want to give you more experience or exposure to help you grow in your position?

    2. Thlayli*

      Because it takes about 3 times as long to produce a presentation as if does to give it, plus they can check email / have lunch / take a mental break during the presentation which they couldn’t do if they were leading it.

  174. Ambpersand*

    Resume question! I’m looking to change jobs and transition into my “ideal” field in the next year (marketing), but I’m in a bit of an odd state. My entire work history is admin/project coordination work in very different industries (academia and medical devices), but my education is in Communication and social media. In order to gain some relevant real-world experience, I work as a volunteer Social Media Coordinator for a large non-profit organization, and I’m lucky enough to be given some consulting opportunities by family members who have their own businesses (3 in total). I’m also looking to get a few certifications to fill in the gaps, and it will be a few months until my portfolio is robust enough to start applying.

    When I’m ready to update my resume, how should I best emphasize my consulting/volunteer experience to showcase my skills, rather than my unrelated job history?

    1. Weyrwoman*

      Put the stuff you want them to have the best impression of at the top. Maybe even label it? So your consulting/volunteer work goes at the top as “Relevant Experience”, and the rest of your history can go under “Work History” or whatever you want to call it.

      1. Ambpersand*

        This is exactly what I had in mind, but I didn’t know if it would be considered odd or bad to change the “traditional” order of things in such a way.

  175. Certification thoughts?*

    I’m wondering if any of the teachers or teacher adjacent readers have guidance for me? I’m graduating college in the spring, and while I have a degree in the subject I want to teach, I don’t have a certification in my state or an education major (I didn’t realize I wanted to teach until a little later in my degree.) I do have a fair amount of teaching experience– I’ve taught and worked with kids in the relevant age group every summer and academic year in a few different roles. My college offers a 1-year post-bacc that would let me get my PA certification, in addition to more classroom experience and formal training. It sounds like a great program, but it would probably require me taking on more loans, and I’m a little nervous about that. I was also considering applying for a position at a private school, since I know a couple of grads who didn’t have education degrees but were still able to find jobs there. Then, the thinking is, I could go for a master’s later if I think that’s really what I want to do. At the moment I’m thinking I should apply both for the post-bacc and for some private school job postings, and use the application process to figure out what I should do. Were any of you in a similar boat, or have any thoughts on that process?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I did actually have a degree and a certification and had taught in public schools, but when I moved, the state I moved to had a ton of hoops to jump through to get certification (despite the two states having “reciprocity”), and I just didn’t want to deal. Plus I had other reasons I wanted to switch to private from public. Private school is definitely a way to go, and you do not need to have any kind of certification or grad school degree (though having a master’s in something makes you more desirable and ups your pay slightly).

      If you’re looking for private school jobs, this is the month to start. Are you in the U.S.? If so, I’d sign up with Carney, Sandoe & Associates (national) and the regional placement firms (CalWest, Southern Teachers, etc.). Carney Sandoe is free for you. I think CalWest has a nominal application fee. For the actual placements, the hiring schools pay for that.

    2. Julianne*

      I think your instinct to apply both for jobs and to the post-bacc program is a good one, as it keeps your options open. If your main goal is to be working in the fall, you could also look for long-term substitute positions in area public schools; in some districts and for some types of positions, administrators might prefer a long-term sub with content knowledge but no certification over a certified sub who doesn’t know the content area well. (But YMMV on this.) You could also investigate whether any local public school districts have apprentice teacher programs that would allow you to earn a salary while training with a licensed teacher and getting certified. (My district has a few of these, but the quality/requirements/benefits to the apprentice really vary.) TFA could be another option if their philosophy and practices appeal to you.

    3. ANON*

      At least in NYC, you can get a job as a public school teacher even without your master’s. You just have to get it within a certain amount of years (2? 3? anyone else know the details on this?) if you want to continue teaching. So for example, fiance’s coworker started teaching immediately upon graduating college. I think in her second year of teaching she enrolled in a master’s program that she is taking while she continues to work as a teacher. So you could try teaching and, if you like it, you could then get your master’s.

      1. School Psych*

        This is not exactly true. I was a NYC public school teacher after graduating from college in a non-teaching area. If you are willing to work in a hard to staff area(Special-Education, Math, Science) or hard to staff school, you can be hired without being fully certified as long as you are actively working towards certification. Your school has to fill out paper-work certifying that they were unable to find a certified candidate for you to be hired into the position and you have to pass the state content area test for your teaching area before you can get your temporary certification and start working. You also have to get your masters within 3 years to obtain your standard certificate and continue to hold your job. I would think the easiest way to go about doing this would be to go through an alternative teacher certification program(teaching fellows, TFA), so they could help you with the paper-work side of getting approved to work without the teaching certificate and finding placements that were able to/willing to hire an non-certified candidate.

        1. ANON*

          Thank you for the clarification – I knew I was missing details!

          (The teacher I was thinking of is in fact a STEM teacher at a high needs school, so that makes sense.)

    4. Little Bean*

      In general, it seems like taking out loans to get a teaching credential is a pretty safe investment. At least in my area, there is always really high demand for teachers, in pretty much every subject but especially math, science and special ed. I’ve heard mixed things about private schools. I know teachers who have been very happy at some, but I’ve also heard of some that have much higher expectations than your average public school (like being available on your home phone for tutoring for several hours every evening). There are also internship programs out there where you can get a teaching job that pays while also completing your credential program at the same time (but honestly, being a teacher sounds so difficult that I doubt I’d want to jump in the classroom without the right training).

      I like your plan to apply for both. You can ask a lot of questions about both along the way, which will probably help you figure out what is the right path for you. Good luck!

    5. ScienceTeacherHS*

      In lots of states there are alternate certification programs that allow people to get a paying teaching position while completing the required education courses to get certified. That’s what I did (took 2 years to finish while I was a full-time teacher at a public school). I’d look into that too.

  176. nonprofitperson*

    For those working in a nonprofit/social benefit environment, what are the coping/self-care practices you use to prevent or help burnout?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I was in this area. I ate whole foods, hydrated, exercised, read up lifting materials, kept a regular sleep and activity schedule and in the end I quit the job anyway.
      But hey, I got many aspects of my self-care in order before I quit.

  177. MsChanandlerBong*

    I’ve been reviewing resumes, and I really wish it was acceptable to write to candidates and say, “Oh, no. Just no. Please don’t do this to yourself.” One person wrote in his resume–not even in his cover letter–that he’s a God-fearing individual. While reading it, I thought, “In this job, a fear of God is only helpful if you miss a deadline.” Another woman sent in a writing sample on John Lennon and the “Beetles.” Yet another person sent in a cover letter that contained a paragraph about her sister’s personal problems (I understand that you can explain a gap in employment by stating that you were attending to a family emergency that has since been resolved or something like that, but she went on about her sister’s issues, how she had to move to a new city because her sister is a mess, etc.). Just…no.

    1. Weyrwoman*

      Oh the mutual pain. I got a temp job at a law firm in college, and because of my fast reading speed they had me doing the initial filter on resumes. So tempting to message some of those people to explain that they were Doing It Wrong and couldn’t reasonably expect to be hired if their resume looked that bad.

    3. SallytooShort*

      The Beatles thing sounds like a gimmick. I bet it’s making the rounds on those terrible trendy social media job hint sites. Not the Beatles specifically but I’d bet all I have it’s a “Demonstrate your passion and your skills by writing about something you LOVE not just work.”

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        We actually give a short writing assessment as part of the application process. One of the options is to write about a favorite musician. So her choice of topic was fine, but the spelling errors were not.

    4. Kathenus*

      Or, just write them a quick thank you note for making it so easy to decide in which pile to place their application materials.

    5. nep*

      OhMyGodWhyCan’tIAtLeastGetAnEmailOrPhoneCallIfThisIsTheKindOfResumeCompaniesAreReceiving?!

    6. valc2323*

      I got one this week where one of the letters of reference is from a parish priest (this job is in no way religiously affiliated) and the main talking point was the candidates “good moral character and mental stability”.

      While those are positive points, they’re not enough to get you an academic fellowship in the sciences.

  178. hopeful candidate*

    Thank you to the amazing posters last week who sent me positive vibes last week… I got the job!

    Despite my concerns about the internal candidate, they said I was their top choice and they were excited to have me.

    It comes with quite a nice pay boost which is a bonus!

  179. Master Bean Counter*

    I need help. What kind of computer language is this:
    SUM(CASE
    WHEN [Type] = ‘Budget’
    THEN [Amount]
    ELSE [Amount] * -1
    END)
    /
    NULLIF(SUM(CASE
    WHEN [Type] = ‘Actual’
    THEN [Amount]
    ELSE 0
    END), 0)
    And what would be my best way to learn it?

    I’m getting really tired of software support guys that have no accounting knowledge trying to help me and insisting I’m wrong when they have no clue what they are talking about.

    1. GigglyPuff*

      It looks like what you’d use for Microsoft Word and Excel in VBA codes. But for that I usually just search comment boards until I find the code I’m looking for and have figured out enough to tweak it a little, so no idea on where to actually learn it besides online tutorials.

    2. Manders*

      That looks like SQL to me (disclaimer: I’m not a professional coder, just a curious googler). Khan Academy has an intro course if you want to learn it.

      Where are you seeing this, and why do you want to learn it?

      1. Master Bean Counter*

        It does pull information from a SQL database. And I am using this in reporting software that bypassed anything useful for financial accounting, even though it is contained in the software the reporting software supports.
        I’m in a situation where I have to create fields to get the reports I need out of this system that has the worst Excel interface I’ve ever seen. It’ll export, but not like you see it on the screen, and good luck getting your fields back where you want them.

    3. Annie Moose*

      I agree that it looks like a form of SQL. Unfortunately, SQL isn’t quite a single language–there’s slightly different versions of it for different database systems. So I’m not sure what exact “dialect” this is (or if it’s actually something else that uses a very similar syntax).

      However, W3Schools has some good basic guides on how to write SQL queries! Even if the system you’re working with isn’t using “real” SQL, you might be able to use it to get a better grasp of what sort of things are possible and how to read/write your own queries. (I’ll put a link in a reply to this comment.)

      As a quick overview, as far as I can tell, the first bit you posted is basically saying, “For every record, if the Type field has the value ‘Budget’, get the value in the Amount field. Otherwise, get the value in the Amount field * -1. Then add up all these amounts and give me the sum as the final result.” And the second bit is saying “For every record, if the Type field has the value ‘Actual’, then get the value in the Amount field. Otherwise, use 0. Now add them all up. If the sum equals 0, then the final result should be null [that is, an empty value or indicating “we don’t have this value”]. If the sum is something other than 0, the final result should be the sum.”

      1. Annie Moose*

        W3Schools link: https://www.w3schools.com/sql/default.asp

        Probably will include a lot of details you don’t need! But if you play around with the “Try it yourself” sections, you should be able to see how it works pretty quickly. SQL can get very complex when you’re trying to write complicated queries (I write SQL frequently and still have to look up weirder syntax), but most queries are quite straightforward.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Unfortunately, SQL isn’t quite a single language–there’s slightly different versions of it for different database systems.

        This is absolutely true, but the differences are often subtle (`top 10` before the select query versus `limit 10` after it). If you’re learning the basics of SQL, you can just pick one (Oracle, MS SQL, MySQL, etc.) and go with it, and 85% of what you learn will translate fairly easily to other “dialects.”

      3. Master Bean Counter*

        From your explanation I now understand why this field isn’t performing as expected. So thank you for that. And I will definitely check out that link.

        Thank you!

  180. Book Page*

    Any advice for coworkers being petty and not talking to you because you did work they tried to get out of? On week 3 of at least 1-3 of my team (there are 4 of us) not speaking to me. And one is being intentionally cruel about it.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, I second Weyrwoman on talking to your manager. If your manager won’t do anything about it, leave. That kind of environment, in which you get punished culturally for doing less, is not one in which you will thrive.

  181. Ann A. Mouse*

    Hi AAM Hive Mind,

    My job is a fairly unique one: I travel quite a bit, within a very large metro area, and visit sites where a particular initiative is being implemented. I have a desk, theoretically, but it’s in a somewhat inconvenient and remote location, and since the real expectation is that I’m on the road doing site visits, I’m not there much (entire weeks can go by without me making an appearance at my “office,” and even our team meetings are frequently off-site).

    It’s starting to grind, and finding a new job, at least in the short term, is not something I’m really working on; I don’t actually mind the work itself and I’m good at it, I’m well-paid, I have good health insurance, and I’m trying to get pregnant, so the hope is that that will happen relatively soon and I’ll be able to roll an extended maternity leave into something new, potentially somewhere else in the country.

    That said, since I’m going to have to deal with job for up to another year, I need suggestions for 2 things:

    1.) Since I’m always on the road, I carry a lot: laptop, notebooks and related supplies, lunch, gym clothes, coffee, water, etc. etc. I have one of those giant L. L. Bean backpacks, and that actually works great, but it’s not super-professional looking; that said, I need something equally big and it has to be a backpack, to keep the weight evenly distributed. Any ideas?

    2.) I’m starting to really struggle with eating healthy on the road. I don’t always have access to a refrigerator and/or a microwave, so it needs to be food that can sit in a bag for a few hours and still be safe/appetizing to eat. I welcome your ideas on shelf-stable food that is relatively convenient to carry and prepare!

    1. Ann A. Mouse*

      Oh, and I left out the most important detail: this is a large metro area and I do all my travels by public transit, so “leave it in your car” is not an option. :)

      Thanks!

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      When you’re thinking about healthy eating, what are your biggest priorities health-wise? Low calorie, low carb, high fiber, high protein, something else?

      1. Ann A. Mouse*

        I’m giving Weight Watchers a go, which, as I understand it, is really trying to get folks to cut down on carbs and sugar. I have a hard time feeling and staying full, and my preferred exercise is running, so if I’m going to feel woozy half a mile into a run, that’s not going to work.

        1. Ambpersand*

          If you’re having a hard time feeling full, eat more protein. It can help keep you feeling fuller, longer. It will also take you about a week or so to get used to the reduced carbohydrates. If you do eat carbs, eat whole wheat, oats, and less refined items. I run and do kettle bell strength training and eat AT LEAST 100 g of protein a day on a 1400 calorie eating plan. I usually eat a small granola bar or a banana about 30-40 minutes before exercise, and I never feel woozy. Enough carbs to sate my hunger and give me some energy, but not wreck my eating plan.

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Definitely protein then, and go for vegetable fiber as well. Lots of veggies will do just fine for a few hours unrefrigerated!

    3. Ambpersand*

      1.) Swiss gear makes some really nice backpacks that hold a lot of stuff. Tons of pockets and great for traveling. They’re all very basic in terms of look, and are plain black. That would be my go-to.

      2.) I’d invest in a small insulated bag that can hold your lunch with a small, flat ice pack to fit in your backpack. When I pack my good/healthy food, I usually pack light sandwiches, fruit, sliced raw veggies, cheese sticks, nuts, etc. All are easy to eat on the go and stash in your purse or bag. I also buy pre-made chicken bacon that doesn’t need to be refrigerated until it’s opened up- but an ice pack would keep it just fine until you eat it. It’s a great high-protein, low-fat snack. Even most of those would be fine without an ice pack in the 4 hour wait until lunch.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Definitely a small insulated lunch bag or bento box (so it’s flat). Hard-boiled eggs (pre-peeled), fruit (especially small things like grapes and berries), hummus, veggies… all travel very well and don’t require a fork. I’m also doing Weight Watchers, and I eat a lot of tofu; I often make baked tofu at the beginning of the week and pack it in lunches, and it makes a great finger food.

    4. T3k*

      I don’t know if this is an option for you, but I like to make my own lunchables: basically I pick my own lunch meat, cheese, crackers, then throw in a couple servings of veggies and fruit (grapes, cherry tomatoes, bananas, carrots, etc.). If I feel the meat and cheese won’t do well (or I know I’ll eat later than usual) I throw in an icepack. There’s also some nice lunchbags out there that look like purses to try and keep it professional looking :)

    5. Susan K*

      I don’t see a problem with the L.L. Bean backpack, but would a small rolling suitcase be an option? We have service reps come to our site from time to time, and my recollection is that most of them carry their equipment in these. It might look a bit more professional than a backpack.

    6. Reba*

      Timbuk2 and Chrome both do backpacks that are sleek and much less schoolkid-looking than LL Bean offerings.

    7. Alianora*

      I like Everlane backpacks for a sleeker look, although I’m not sure if they have the size you’re looking for. Mine can carry my laptop, toiletries, one or two changes of clothes, and miscellany.

  182. Submit for appraisal*

    Any records managers here? Looking for someone to settle a debate. We’re writing a retention schedule. One of the records series is not obviously temporary or obviously permanent. Old (like 40 years old) schedules say “submit to archivist for disposition” for record series like this. I say that’s the equivalent of “submit to archivist for appraisal and a disposition determination,” shortened to “appraisal.” Our retention schedule format includes a clear statement: TEMPORARY or PERMANENT, so for the ones that need a deferred appraisal, I’m proposing APPRAISAL as a statement of the records’ disposition. My colleague thinks I’m using the wrong terminology and the correct word to use in place of TEMPORARY or PERMANENT is DISPOSITION. But “temporary” and “permanent” are dispositions. The disposition cannot be DISPOSITION. Right? Or am I wrong? I don’t want to dig my heels in if I’m in the wrong, but I really think my colleague is the one who is wrong.

    1. SallytooShort*

      I think you are absolutely technically correct but I do get where he is coming from. With this stuff you always want to reference your source and it’s the norm to closely shadow the language.

      I totally get that appraisal is basically what the schedule is saying. But it’s not what it literally says. And it’s common to want to track the schedule language as literally as possible.

      In any real world normal situation you are 100% right. In the weird world of record retention I definitely can see it both ways.

      Also, normally permanent and temporary wouldn’t be considered the disposition. Those are statuses. The disposition would be the final thing you do with them. So “retain” or “discard” would be the disposition.

      1. Submit for appraisal*

        Thanks in particular for that last clarifying paragraph. I will (try to!) modify my language to reflect this.
        We’re working on updating the horribly old schedules that have the “submit for disposition” language, so I’m not concerned about tracking the schedule language–I’m more concerned about creating model language for the future. The totality of your comment makes me think I need new language altogether. I appreciate this!

        1. SallytooShort*

          Oh, I totally get you. I have waded in this nightmare world of record retention before.

          I wasn’t really agreeing with your co-worker and I don’t think language *needs* to be literally tracked, at all. I was just saying that’s probably what his thought process is.

          I’d also say my only fear with “appraisal” is that will invite these records to just sit around without anyone ever looking at them, at all. “What are these documents?” “Oh, they are waiting on appraisal.” “Oh, OK.” 100 years goes by and they eventually disintegrate. But that would also happen with “disposition.” My situation was government and… that would be the case there. But that’s likely not your issue to deal with. You just need everything appropriately handled.

          1. Submit for appraisal*

            Oh no, this is government. Horribly understaffed government. (Hence the 40 year old retention schedules.) And in this particular situation, the option is either “appraise later” or “keep forever” and I am desperately trying to overcome our tendency towards hoarding. So if they sit around not being appraised, it’s no different than what’s happening currently :-)

            1. Struck by Lightning*

              PLEASE don’t try to overcome the tendency to hoard in government records! You have no idea how many court situations I have been in where an adjacent landowner or permitee is suing claiming an old right (one of the key years is the 1904, another is 1898) and the ONLY thing proving to the judges’ satisfaction are some old fireld notes or working maps. Or how many of these we’ve lost because all I can find is a line on the front of the box clearly listing exactly what I need…with a note saying “disposed 1989”.

              1. Teapot librarian*

                Well, there’s retaining records that ought to be retained because they have long-term value, and there’s retaining records that never were disposed as appropriate and now “they’re valuable because they’re old.” Or retaining records because “someone might want to do research on [insert random thing like “the weight of awards given to senior government officials in the 1990s”].” It’s a delicate balance. (And at least you have a note saying that what you’re looking for has been disposed. I have someone looking for records from his agency that may very well have been disposed (completely inappropriately) but with no documentation anywhere of what actually happened to them.

    2. Yorick*

      I agree that APPRAISAL is better (maybe NEEDS APPRAISAL), and I like SallytooShort’s suggestion of RETAIN or DISCARD. These are all actions so it makes it obvious what needs to be done in these cases.

  183. Cobblestone*

    I took an external training course with two coworkers. One was on her personal phone for about a quarter of the time during the lecture (i.e., not during the breaks). Once she must have clicked a video link because her phone started blaring. She quickly shut it off and apologized. But she was back on her phone a few minutes later.

    It was a small class (about 10 people) so I’m sure it was obvious to everyone at the round table what she was doing. She didn’t mention an emergency, and she was on her phone for every day of class.

    Our boss wasn’t in attendance. We are client-facing, and some of our potential clients were taking the class, so I felt it left a bad impression. I’m the most senior of the three of us, but I am a peer. We are both young women. I gave her looks during class, but she ignored me and I didn’t bring it up directly with her. Should I bring it up with our boss?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Unless it impacts your work in some manner, you may have to let it go. I guess I would just avoid sitting next to her in the future.

  184. Pet sitter*

    This week:

    – I saw tortoiseshell cats all day every day for several days. I don’t know how it happened! No other cats. No dogs. One snake.
    – This absolute sweetheart of a cat, who is diabetic, purred and cuddled while I gave her insulin. A+ best cat. Her sister groomed my hair.
    – Another cat, who is basically a pillow with legs, usually didn’t like being touched. Today she greeted me at the door when I came in and flopped over for a belly rub.
    – My client’s cat needed to wriggle his feet while he was lying on my stomach, and I didn’t have the heart to push him away, so he scratched my hip above the waist of my jeans. This is the price of having a job where you can lie on the floor with a cat on top of you without anybody thinking you’re lazy. I’m okay with paying it.

    2. Trillion*

      I didn’t see your name initially and was dying to know what kind of job lets your interact with kitties all day.

      HOW AWESOME.

      1. Kuododi*

        I saw a post recently about a vet clinic in Dublin Ireland which only saw cats…..They were advertising for a job opening for a “cat cuddler.” Sounds like heaven to me!!!! Getting paid to love on cats all day…. glorious!!!!

  185. SnoringSally*

    Anyone have advice on traveling with bosses? I’m going to be taking an international trip for work, and have been seated next to my boss for the ~20 hours of flying there and ~20 hours of flying back. We’ll also be sharing a car, staying in the same hotels (different rooms), working on the same projects together on the other end. I’m happy to have the time to get to know her (I started recently), but it’s a lot of face time. Advice? Suggestions? Ways to avoid drooling and snoring on my boss 14 hours into a flight?

    1. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

      Follow your bosses lead. If she puts on headphones leave her alone. If she starts conversations participate. Remember that you are always “on” for this trip. Be helpful, low maintenance, and problem solver.

      Not sure if you are serious about the snore drool question – I have never slept on a fellow passenger I was not related to. If that is an issue for you try one of those neck pillows.

      1. nep*

        ‘Be helpful, low maintenance, and problem solver.’ Excellent advice — great to have this in the forefront of your mind at all times.

    2. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

      Try not to give too much away. Treat it almost like an interview. Take as much “me” time as you can and give yourself rewards and off time as much as possible before and after the trip. It’s going to be a lot of strain.

      1. Havarti*

        Yes, don’t feel the need to fill the void with chatter. Though in my experience, neck pillows still let people drool and snore, just mostly upright. ;)

      2. oldfashionedlovesong*

        Oh man, I definitely co-sign “try not to give too much away”. Early on in my last job I had a work trip with a particular nosy supervisor in my department – not my supervisor, but parallel to my supervisor. We had some downtime while waiting for a flight and she poked and prodded with a lot of questions about my childhood and family and so on – and I, not knowing any better, said more than I would have ideally said. Work after that was awkward and draining because she now felt like she was a confidant of mine (no) and she had all this personal info about me. 100% my fault and I absolutely learned that lesson.

        Take as much time to yourself as possible: in the evenings, via good headphones during the flight, etc. Is there any chance you can change your seat on the flight? Most airlines let you do that online if you have the booking info. In my current job I travel a lot with coworkers and while we all get along swimmingly, we have an ironclad no-sitting-together-on-planes policy. We all know we need the space.

    3. Ambpersand*

      Be on your best behavior! Unfortunately work trips with bosses mean you need to be “ON” the entire time you’re together- which is a lot longer than 8 hours a day. Stick to professional and safe discussion topics, be polite, and pretend like you’re in the office together and not traveling.

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      Oh lordy. Whose bright idea was it to seat you next to each other on the plane? Is it possible to change your seat assignment and pretend the airline did it?

      I mean…in your shoes I could deal with the other stuff (though I wouldn’t like it; I once had to share a car with my boss for a 2-hour drive, we had opposing political views, and he insisted on talking about them the whole time), but man, a 20-hour flight would be torture.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Ha, yes, me too. Even if I liked my boss, I have certain “plane behaviors” to help me relax, and I don’t want to worry about my boss in the middle of it all. My boss usually gets upgraded so this isn’t even an issue, but I am so glad he doesn’t insist I travel NEXT to him. With him is enough for both of us.

    5. Trillion*

      I just experienced this! Your boss may be as ready as you to get some private time in the middle of all this, so take it when it’s offered (“I’m thinking of doing my own thing for lunch, see you back here in an hour?”)

      I’ve had nothing but good things come from such situations, myself, and I’m terrible awkward sleeper (thing farting and drooling). My advice for any time I get to sit next to a stranger on a plane: take two pashminas. Tie one around your knees and the other around your upper body (like you would wear it normally). This keeps you all tucked together so you’re not sprawling in your sleep.

      The Embrace Sleep Collar is trash and so completely uncomfortable. Don’t fall for it.

      Have fund, good luck. Hopefully your boss will get a little tipsy around you. That’s always fun.

      1. Trillion*

        Whoops, after reading through the comments, maybe my advice isn’t the best. Better to be more careful than giving too much away, apparently.

  186. Make an assessment.*

    Hello, wise commentariat – I have a two-parter for you regarding my current job search.

    1a: I was laid off in mid-2016 in the sixth round of a massive sale/closing that took out about 75% of our 1000+ person company. I was fortunate enough to have a lot of good industry contacts and have been freelancing ever since on a variety of interesting projects, but I’m lonely and I’d like to go back to a “real office” since I’ve been remote for 8 years. I’m worried I’m not presenting my freelance work, which is my most recent, attractively enough to potential employers. Do you have any best practices for its presentation? I currently list my self-employed status and provide 2-3 achievement bullets from various clients (i.e. designed materials that directly led to a raise of XYZ in NPS) – is that the best method?

    1b: the first week of January, I applied for a job at a small local company that was a great fit but probably a step back in seniority (director to team manager). I wanted to get back into team coaching, so it made sense to apply, but I didn’t get any contact. I learned that the HR person left in January, and a similar job at the director level has just been posted this week by her successor. I would love to be considered for it, but I don’t want to trust that they’d review former applications for fit. Is there a way I can apply for this job without looking like a spammer?

    1. Havarti*

      1b.) Apply! If you originally applied in the beginning of January and the person left shortly after, who knows what happened to your application. Applying twice in 2 or almost 3 months with a probable org upheaval in the middle doesn’t sound spammy to me. What’s the worst that can happen? They don’t contact you? Go for it!

  187. Environmental Gone Public Health*

    Excited to say that I’ve accepted a job offer working at a private ethanol manufacturer! I am giving notice in about an hour, which could go interestingly. First day is March 19th!

      1. Environmental Gone Public Health*

        Thanks!

        So, I didn’t get walked out, but she did cry at me. Then immediately told everyone in the office, and seemed confused when I asked if HR needed a resignation letter or email, and if I need to contact HR or if she has to.

  188. This...isn't good*

    Many thanks to stej, Jules the Third, MissDissplaced, Ellen Ripley, The Ginger Ginger

    I posted this (https://www.askamanager.org/2018/01/open-thread-january-5-6-2018.html#comment-1791339) almost two months ago. There have been three close but not quites and more than a few disappointments since then.

    I saw a posting that looked great in terms of a career change I’m attempting to make last Wednesday, but it was nearly a week old for a fairly low-level role. I applied anyway hoping it hadn’t been filled. They called Monday morning. I interviewed in-person Wednesday morning. The hiring manager asked for my references as I was leaving. I thought nothing of it because I’ve been asked for references, shown “my office” and met so many teams that it doesn’t move me.

    They conducted reference checks yesterday morning.

    I was offered the job last night and I start Monday-two months after this breakdown. It’s 15k less than I want (not need, huge difference) in terms of pay, but I’ll be away from HellJob and relaxed enough to make a more strategic exit. I gave my notice this morning and Boss freaked out. Now he’s telling me I’m his best employee, this is going to hurt them, he’ll need at least three people to replace me, it will take months to find and won’t be cheap, maybe I can just take a week off to recharge and half days Fridays for a few weeks. He’s currently sulking in his office.

    The Ginger Ginger-I will be having my thyroid checked because there are some other things going on with my body that are pointing to a problem there or with a vitamin deficiency, so thanks for the tip.

    3. Weyrwoman*

      Nice going! And the mental image I have of your boss is making me laugh – funny how you’re suddenly invaluable when you say you’re leaving, yeah?

      1. This...isn't good*

        He claimed all I had to do was tell him I was unhappy and ask for help and he would have done anything for me. Sure, Jan. The sulking was my favorite part. He walked up to me at one point to give me something and said, “This is due next week, but I guess it has to go to Fergus now, huh?”

        Yes. It DOES need to go to Fergus now.

    4. stej*

      Omg, I was so surprised to see my name and then this great news! Congratulations!!! I am so overjoyed!

      And watching the Ex-HellJob Boss’s meltdown when I gave my resignation is quite possibly the best feeling I have ever had in my life.

      1. This...isn't good*

        I didn’t know if people searched their names, so I was hoping you’d see it.

        I looked around and found that the community gyms are free for city residents and the one near me is always empty with a rowing machine. I’ve rowed many meters while listening to podcasts. I even went to sleep last night at 11.

        He came in at 5 and said I could go if I wanted. Thanks, guy.

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      OMG I’m so happy for you!!! Sometimes the escape is definitely worth the lower pay. I’m glad you’ll have the opportunity to take a deep breath and take care of yourself. Good luck with your new role and with your doctor appointment! Fingers crossed your can slough of the crazy from Old Job(!), and reset your expectations in a saner place.

      And, a bit more thyroid talk – thyroid issues can be tricky sometimes. There’s a range of “normal” that you can fall into that will cause a GP to say you don’t have any issues, but really – if they’d been charting YOUR normal before all the nonsense started, it would be a wide (problematic) swing for you. (So if you lived your whole life at the bottom of the range, then suddenly swung to to the top; you’re technically in the “normal range” but you’ve had a huge change FOR YOU.) In my case, I was very far outside normal range so it was obvious (and I don’t want you to get to worried about this before you even see your doctor). Mostly I’m just encouraging you that if your GP doesn’t find any issue to explain your physical symptoms (thyroid or otherwise), don’t be afraid to get a second opinion somewhere else or ask for a referral to an endocrinologist – especially if your thyroid levels are on either the top or bottom edge of that normal range. Also, certain vitamin deficiencies (especially vitamin D) can sometimes go hand in hand with thyroid problems (it did for me!), so it may all be tied together.

      Regardless, you got this! Congratulations on your escape!

  189. Giggles*

    Coworker has a high-pitched giggle. Cute when you’re 5, not when you’re in your 60s. Besides earplugs, any ideas on how to drown it out?

    1. SallytooShort*

      The woman in the office across from me is really nice but also REALLY loud. And just has a running commentary all day long. Kind of like the copy machine guy in the old SNL skit.

      I’ve started playing classical music on spotify in headphones. It’s not distracting and works better than other music at drowning out the sound.

  190. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

    Apparently some higher up told our client’s CEO that the product is done and ready to be released, which is a wild exaggeration. Now we fear the CEO himself is going to demand a live demo, or even drop by unexpectedly.

    2. Free Meerkats*

      If the CEO does drop by, act confused and honestly say that it isn’t done, is nowhere near release ready, and obviously there was a misunderstanding somewhere.

      Don’t try to cobble together something just so you have something to show.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      In my dreams the higher up gets told “CEO is here. You can demo that product that we don’t have to him right now.”

  191. Employee Gifts?*

    I’m looking for ideas for small gifts ($10 or under each) for employees. Has there been anything you’ve received from your employer that you’ve appreciated?

    Some background: We have around 30 employees and recently restructured our org chart and hired a few new people. No one’s day to day job changed drastically for the negative (a couple people were promoted to team leads), but teams changed around.

    We’ve also been working on improving processes and customer experiences, so our leadership has been very hands-on in areas they wouldn’t normally be (and this is temporary). While it’s necessary, I could definitely see how some of our team could consider it micromanaging.

    I’ve been asked to help think of something we could do for the team, like a small gift or activity, as a thank you for being patient during the last few months of growing/restructuring pains. We already get lunch for everyone on a semi-regular basis, so we want to do something more than just that. They can be semi-customized (like get everyone their favorite candy instead of getting every the exact same candy), but it’s probably not going to be doable to get everyone a completely customized gift (like a coffee mug for Harry and a calendar for Hermione and hat for Ron).

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      If I have to get something under $10, I’d prefer some kind of gift card, preferably to a local business but large corp will do, too.

      Really, though, a real raise or cash bonus would be best. Or maybe an extra floating holiday or vacation day?

      1. Employee Gifts?*

        We already have unlimited PTO and recently changed an optional holiday (you could choose between MLK Day or Good Friday) to a floating holiday. And because of the nature of our business, we can’t close early or unexpectedly. Otherwise, my suggestion would definitely be something along those lines (or something along the lines of a surprise half day).

        I know some people did receive raises during the restructuring, so I don’t think that would fly with our owners, unfortunately (for context, I am an individual contributor, not part of the leadership team).

    2. H.C.*

      In the cheap gifts category, I appreciate microfiber wipes. Moreso because I’m four-eyed, but they’re great for monitors and phone/tablet screens as well. Lunch bags with reusable stay-cool packs are nice too, but that depends on how many folks bring their lunches in.

      Otherwise, I’d say go with Starbucks gift card – it’s a bit generic but almost everyone can get something there (and it’s also easy to re-gift, if they really have absolutely no use for it.)

      1. Employee Gifts?*

        Lunch bags would actually be great! We have a lot of people who bring lunch but almost none of them use a lunch box. Our fridge is kind of a mess or random Tupperware and groceries shoved everywhere.

        1. Grumpy*

          Baggu makes cute, practical, reusable nylon bags.
          Or “Nite-Ize” bottle opener/carabiner gadget.
          Or Starbucks cards.
          Or mini Mag Lites.
          All very re-giftable.

    3. Effie, who is pondering*

      I like hand sanitizer and pocket kleenex, but I’m unromantically practical.

      1. Employee Gifts?*

        As someone with hand sanitizer, tissues, lip balm, hand lotion, and dry shampoo at my desk at all times… I feel you.

        1. Effie, who is pondering*

          I have all of those too! Plus powder deodorant, band-aids, and ibuprofen.

          Maybe you could get company-branded hand sanitizer?

        2. H.C.*

          That reminds me one of my better work gifts was a wallet sized “work first aid” kit w emergency sewing kit, aspirin packs, bandages, breath mints & individually-wrapped sanitizing wipes.

    5. Colette*

      Could you give them a few choices choices – i.e. gift card, coffee mug, flashlight) and have them each choose the one they want?

    6. Trillion*

      I’m using it right this minute! I thermal mug: https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/magellan-outdoors-throwback-20-oz-stainless-steel-double-wall-insulated-tumbler#repChildCatid=5127523

      Eliminates the need for styrofoam cups.

      A previous company I worked for played silent bingo. They would scroll the bingo numbers across the marque (each number for quite a long time, like 5 minutes) so that the reps could still play while taking phone calls. When someone got a Bingo, they’d IM their manager who would come over to confirm. Then they’d announce the bingo on the scrolling marquee. The reps looked forward to all the time.

      What about letting everyone have even just an extra hour off, on a rotating basis? (Draco leaves early today, Severus leaves early tomorrow). It may not be a full day, but its easier on your budget and can still be so refreshing for the reps.

    7. ANon*

      Where I’ve worked, everyone always goes crazy for food. Since you already do lunches every so often, could you bring in something like good-quality cupcakes/cakes/donuts (providing alternative options for those with dietary restrictions)?

    8. Thlayli*

      Something i can regift would be my preference. Like a bottle of wine or box of chocolates.

    9. Earthwalker*

      One boss got our department phone chargers – the little brick that holds a day’s extra charge in case you run out when you’re away from your charger. They were very well received.

  192. Triplestep*

    Parents of soon-to-be grads: Alison’s guide “How to Prepare for an Interview” is invaluable for your kids. I have been trying to get my daughter to avail herself of the advice here, and she has been willing but it can be a little bit overwhelming at times. Alison’s guide comes with a downloadable PDF, and a presentation version which Alison narrates. My daughter and I watched this together last weekend (she had come home for a job interview) and it was so helpful! She then downloaded onto her own laptop and watched it again, writing down all the questions she needed to get comfortable answering.

    I think for students in particular, the presentation is key. This way the guide doesn’t have to be just another thing in the pile of things they are reading. And of course the advice great – I think my daughter was not only better prepared than she would have been, but less nervous. I really enjoyed getting to see the transformation.

    Thank you Alison!

  193. Laura in NJ*

    Does anyone know of any services that help those still struggling with job searching? My local One-Stop Career Center only helps if you’re on Unemployment (I went there a few years ago and was basically told to go away since I had finished my UI back in 2012). I still can’t get any interview to save my life and I don’t know what else to do.

    2. Nanc*

      Is there a local community college, university, parks and rec or public library that offers a class? You could also check out ed2go.com. If they don’t offer a class in your area they may have an online version.

      Unfortunately, none of these are free options but you may be able to find something at a reasonable cost.

      If you’re not on LinkedIn, it might be worth signing up to join some of the groups that are in your industry area. Some of them post jobs and if nothing else, you’ll be keeping up with your industry.

      Are there professional organizations in your industry? Can you join a local chapter? Again, this may not lead to a job but it will keep you in touch with folks and issues in your industry.

      Good luck and let us know how it goes.

    3. Mimmy*

      I see you’re in NJ – this makes me sad because I’ve thought about going to my county’s One Stop Center myself, but I’ve gotten the sense that they’re not all that helpful.

      I’ll be curious to see what others suggest.

  194. TGIF*

    I work with an instigator who loves gossip and drama. She’s been giving me attitude all week- nothing I say or do is right. How do you handle people like this? Do you develop and maintain a poker face? We have to work together, so it’s difficult to avoid her…

    1. Effie, who is pondering*

      I’ve tried killing with kindness, which did not work enough of the time (it worked if she was in a good mood) and made me want to barf. What worked better was change my private perception of her to pathetic and laughable, in a way that made me feel kinda sorry for her and want to laugh. Kinda like her own life is so boring, she needs to make up stuff just to get attention. While this may or may not be true (maybe she really was a manipulative, evil person), it kept my blood pressure low and it helped me ignore her antics.

    2. Havarti*

      Pretty much. You could try the grey rock method. Change the subject back to work items whenever possible. Practice selective deafness. Be polite and professional but a bit distant. Remind yourself she’s your coworker and not a friend. Sometimes when someone tells me I’m wrong, I just go “ok” and change the subject rather than fight to prove I. Am. Right. because they’re not going to listen anyway. It tends to knock the wind out of their sails.

  195. Damn it, Hardison!*

    I got an unexpected promotion this week! I really did have a good year – all goals met on time and on budget- and have taken on a heavier workload and senior responsibilities, so it was nice that my work was recognized. Apparently there is a raise as well, but that paperwork isn’t done yet so it will be a surprise. It was a pretty good way to end the week.

  196. KayEss*

    So this week I had a promising place I interviewed with call me back for a second, cross-department interview… and then immediately call again and change it to a phone interview with just an IT developer. I’m trying really hard to see this as “turns out we couldn’t get all these people in the same room at the same time, ha ha scheduling amirite” and not “someone inspected the code on your website and it’s trash and you’re trash and we’re going to berate you for 45 minutes for having the gall to waste our time pretending you can do this job” but ANXIETY.

    (I CAN do this job and my code is maybe not the absolute google-sanitized cleanest but it’s JUST FINE and UGH.)

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Scheduling sucks. It does. Probably just that. Deep breath, do whatever you need to left this go.

    2. bb-great*

      If they thought you were garbage they wouldn’t be interviewing you at all! It’s definitely scheduling or efficiency issues on their end.

  197. cathammock*

    Is it cheesy or a waste of space to include winning “2017 [Name of Org] Employee of the Year” on my resume?

    My concern is that this sounds too much like “Employee of the Month” and may end up reading like a filler/throwaway accomplishment. On the other hand, it also feels like a potentially good and concise way to substantiate that I have been and will be a valuable asset to an employer. Or maybe it will raise uncomfortable questions (why are you leaving an organization that values you so much?), or maybe no one will care either way.

    I don’t know! What do you think?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I think it’s more of a cover letter thing. Or an interview thing. It’s not that I don’t think it matters, but just listing it in a resume doesn’t tell a hiring manager what you did to earn it.

      1. cathammock*

        Yeah, one way or another I want to include details about the award criteria – I agree that just listing the name doesn’t accomplish much.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Can you quantify how rare it is and how you received it? My former employer called its highest performance award literally just “Achievement Awards,” which could easily be a participation trophy. I include it in my resume but explain that it’s awarded by departmental leaders for sustained high performance and is awarded to less than 1% of our department.

      1. cathammock*

        I definitely wanted to qualify the award by describing the criteria, but it hadn’t occurred to me to quantify how rare it is. I was assuming it would be apparent from the name that it was a “one person out of the whole agency each year” thing, but clearly it’s not that self-explanatory.

        Thank you! Blind spot identified. I feel a lot more comfortable including it knowing what I need to explain to make it noteworthy .

  198. Amber Rose*

    I went to a concert last night. I showered and wore clean clothes this morning but it occurs to me that my jacket probably stinks like weed too. -_-

    Hopefully nobody notices before I can febreeze it.

    Just my luck to get stuck sitting behind the smokestack. Ugh.

  199. Effie, who is pondering*

    WOC admins, can I ask for your perspective here? How do you explain being the target of unconscious condescension to others? Is there a way? A couple things* have come up in the last few months and I’m generally at a loss to explain this succinctly and practically to the managers I’m supporting. (*among our interns, not among our managers) They tend to brush it off with, “our interns are still young, they’ll learn.” Which is unhelpful and makes me feel like a drama queen when I’m just trying to tell them my experience so they can know that it’s happening.

    “Strikes” against me:
    – I look really young, even with makeup, even with dressing professionally in structured, tailored clothing
    – I’m very obviously a WOC, not even close to passing for white
    – I’m an admin, and since this is most of our interns’ first office jobs I guess they don’t know how to interact with me? I’m not their age (even though I look it), I don’t want to be their friend, I just want them to be professional
    – I am young enough to be the managers’ daughter so maybe they’re taking me less seriously?
    – our department is primarily not POC and most of my managers seem to have rose-colored glasses on about our interns

    Good news is one of the managers seems to be taking me seriously and wants to have a bigger conversation with the entire management team and me about how this can come up and how we should respond, support me, etc. So I guess I’m looking for advice about how to tackle this conversation when it comes up, which will most likely be in the next few weeks.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Effie, who is pondering*

      In case this is helpful info: it’s a paid internship and very competitive (we interview over 50 people per opening historically). Interns get a ton of training, get to try all kinds of fields in the company, get lots of face-time with C-levels if they take advantage of it, and upon completion of the internship are guaranteed a full-time job.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        More context: Are there other admins who are not POC, and if so, have you noticed how the interns treat them? If the answer is “yes, and the interns use a more respectful tone when addressing the other admins,” by all means tell your boss this!

        If the answer is “yes, and the interns are condescending to all the admins,” then I think you still have a case for asking your boss to address why the interns shouldn’t perceive admins as lower-status individuals just because they might be on a different career track. (And hell, it behooves you to be nice to the person who supports your boss!)

        If the answer is no, you’re the only one, I think you can still push on this, but the more specific examples you can cite, the better. It’s hard when there’s no easy comparison (“the interns say please and thank you to the other admins, but are always ordering me around”) so I think the more you can cite specific examples (“When I told Fergus I needed to work on something for you instead of making copies for him, he audibly sighed at me”), the better.

        In any case, if you get “well, they’re young,” then I’d come back with, “Yes, and this is the perfect time for them to learn how not to be this way.”

        1. Effie, who is pondering*

          Good questions. I’m the only admin for the department. I haven’t seen how they interact with other admins. Also, based on the nature of the internship, for the first few months to a year they really only interact with higher ups who are giving their time to the internship (ie giving trainings), the intern managers, older interns, and each other.

          Exactly, I think for a lot of them they’re not quite clear on what an admin does and why it’s important.

    2. Effie, who is pondering*

      I don’t even know why it’s happening, whether it’s because I’m young-looking, female, a POC, an admin, some of the above, all of the above, or whatever. I just need to know how to 1) not sound delusional 2) not sound like I have a chip on my shoulder when I don’t always have quantifiable evidence. Sometimes you just know, you know? Argh here I am talking to myself. Sorry!

      1. oldfashionedlovesong*

        I’m not an admin, but I am a young-looking WOC in a professional environment and hopefully from that perspective I can be helpful. I’m so sorry you’re being condescended to by folks who are new to the working environment. It does speak to their character and I’m on your side that it’s not a matter of them being “too young” and that “they’ll learn” – these behaviours will accompany them as they grow, and now is the time to nip them in the bud, not ignore them! If this internship

        Would the supportive manager be interested in reviewing/doing an intern training on unconscious/implicit bias? I don’t want my comment to get caught in moderation by including a link, but if you google “unconscious bias ucsf”, you’ll find some excellent resources that could be useful to both of you as you figure out how to address this issue.

        2. Effie, who is pondering*

          Thank you for validating my POV, I feel a bit like I’m going crazy.

          My company as a whole is actively trying to diversify and offers regular trainings in unconscious/implicit bias. I hope that the other managers don’t say something like “it’s too early to be thinking about this!”

          I did overhear some older interns the other day who’d gone to one of those trainings and the young non POC guy was asking the young WOC what she’d thought and it sounded like he was trying to get her to agree that it was a waste of time and I couldn’t stand to hear it and walked away. We are not here to massage your ego, dude. Thinking from your privileged position that you’re “not that bad” makes you a part of the problem.

        3. sunshyne84*

          I agree, even just a general office etiquette meeting would be helpful. People don’t always understand the work others put in to keeping a company afloat and everyone’s job should be respected. I think someone stressing the importance of what the admins do should light that bulb in their head that hey the admins are pretty important too! Good luck.

  200. Newbie*

    I am happy to put out there that I had a job interview today that I felt went really well! I got along well with the manager and the job sounds like something I’d be interested in. There was one odd part of the job interview though. Halfway through they had me take a basic “IQ test”. The questions were really simple but it was so random. I went along with it but I kept expecting at some point the manager to be like, “JK, this was really a test to see how you handle stress, thinking on your feet, etc” but that never happened… it was just a straight IQ test placed in the middle of the interview. Not weird enough to deter my interest in the job, but weird all the same. Has this happened to anyone else?

    1. Weyrwoman*

      That is super weird. I had to take a sort-of IQ test years ago when applying for a Capital Police job in DC, but I think that was more of a personality/risk thing than a proper IQ test.

  201. The Other Dawn*

    I’m so frustrated and my brain hurts! I feel like I’m entering a state of analysis paralysis today. I don’t know if I’m overthinking, or if this is truly complicated and I’m not grasping it. I’m creating a worksheet that would help employees calculate business ownership percentages and I’m totally stuck. I can do the first layer of ownership easily, but once it enters into that second layer (business that owns another business), I’m just totally blank.

    1. Havarti*

      Take a break and get some coffee. Go for a quick walk to rest your brain. Is there existing documentation? Is there someone you talk to about it even if it’s just to knock ideas loose? Good luck!

  202. Librarygal30*

    I want to know what are some of your weirdest hiring stories, both as a a manager and an employee. Generally the process goes: learn about the job, apply, interview, offer extended, acceptance, start work (with maybe some extra steps in between those big ones). The path to my current job went like this: learn about job, email resume, phone interview (all in the same day), wait two weeks and I formally applied, got my verbal, then written offer in that time, filled out my HR paperwork, and went to the location before my start date. My last day at OldJob was on a Friday, and I started CurrentJob that following Monday.
    I’ve been at my job for almost 6 months, and it’s been a learning experience, but I’m happy with my choice!

    1. Trillion*

      Hi Library, The second path doesn’t seem all that unusual for a very specialized role or for something they’re trying to fill fast. Congrats on your new job!

      When I was in HR, I had a situation where we lost a new hire. He was flying into the US from Asia and starting within hours of landing. His plane landed, but he was no where to be found! We didn’t have a phone number for him or emergency contacts we could call.

      Finally towards the end of the day, we learned he’d been held up in customs all day. We were just so happy to know that he was okay. We told him to take a few days to recover and rest, and we’d see him later in the week.

      It was incredible to me how often new hires were late to their first day of work. I onboarded new hires every other week, and seriously I’d have someone late in just about every class. Is that really how you want to start your first day? We even started them later in the day so they weren’t fighting morning traffic!

    2. Teapot librarian*

      I had a summer job in law school where the process went like this: send a bunch of identical emails being careful to edit the organization name and contact in each one. Mess up on one of the emails. Get an email back “I think you meant to send this to Y so I forwarded it for you.” Respond “oh no, I just missed one of the references to X in my email, I did mean to send it to you.” 15 minutes later “we’d love to have you.” (It was a non-profit and I was going to be working for free. Though I still don’t know why they hired me without even an interview!)

      My last law job before becoming a teapot librarian, I was referred by a colleague, had coffee with the boss-to-be, was hired. No resume, no formal interview… it was awesome.

    3. Newbie*

      I do the hiring at my company and I have had some weird experiences for sure! I think the WEIRDEST interview I’ve ever had was a candidate who came in for an interview started crying as soon as we sat down. She told me she was so thrilled to be interviewing for the job because she loved the company and that speaking with me was like “speaking to a celebrity”… ooooookay. I was totally taken aback so I think I said something vague and asked if she’d like a minute to collect herself and she replied back, “It’s okay, I’m just high.” WHAT?!?! The interview did not go very far after that haha

    4. el*

      I interned at my current company for a long time during college, and when my boss decided to move on, the team wanted me to replace her. My “interview” involved me attending her goodbye party.

  203. Trillion*

    ARGH, I’m interviewing like crazy, and it seems like there could be three offers coming my way. My #1 choice is being so sloooooooow about the whole thing, even though they claim the VP wanted to fill this position *yesterday*.
    My current position isn’t tenable beyond the end of the calendar year, so I can’t afford to turn anything down after having “a fews to think about it.” But I always want a place I can stay at for a good long while.

    I’m so worried that one of my backup choices will offer me something soon and I’ll have to accept and miss out on #1 choice.

    (I know this seems like the stupidest thing to call a “problem.” This is the first time I’ve job searched and had the luxury of being picky.)

    Of course, I worry even more than none of the three will make an offer and I’ll have to start the whole job search over again.

    2. Ashk434*

      you should definitely continue applying to jobs because you never know what could happen. If one of your backups offer you a job, get in touch with you #1 choice and say you received an offer and would like to know if they will be making a decision any time soon regarding your candidacy. There’s probably a much better way to word it but just make sure you’re not pressuring them or demanding an answer on a spot.

  204. Lissa*

    Any advice dealing with defensive coworkers who seem determined to take things as an insult? I understand there are often underlying reasons but in the moment I feel like I’m walking on eggshells.

    Examples:
    I asked Coworker if she’d heard from Client, and she said “I’m very good about forwarding all emails I get from Client to you, so no, I haven’t heard from her.”
    I asked Coworker if she knew any details about X upcoming project (I literally only know that it exists) and she said “I don’t know any more than you do; have I ever slacked on a project like that before?”

    It’s like… I’m asking informational questions that I don’t know the answers to but I feel like I can’t do that anymore because she takes everything I say as an indictment of her work ethic. It’s a weird situation because I feel like we got along super well for the first 2 years of working together but sometime in the last few months it feels like I can’t say anything right. One of these interactions happened in email and I answered with something like “I didn’t mean to imply you wouldn’t tell me, but sometimes emails get lost in the shuffle.” To which she replied just “Fair enough.” So…??? It’s hard to explain because each interaction by itself is not terrible but taken together, when this never happened before, it’s starting to grind me down a bit.

    1. Colette*

      I wouldn’t even comment on the defensiveness. Coworker says “I’m very good about forwarding all emails I get from Client to you, so no, I haven’t heard from her.”, I’d probably respond with “So the answer is no? OK, I’ll follow up.” So don’t reassure her that you think she’s a good worker, or apologize for asking a reasonable question, just respond as if she were responding appropriately.

    2. Trillion*

      Maybe have a face to face with her (if possible) where you ask something like “have I done anything that would make you think when I’m asking for information, I’m judging or attacking. I want to make sure that I’m using appropriate language.” And see what she has to say.

    3. Havarti*

      Two possible routes depending how you want to handle it:
      1. Ask her what’s going on. Have a chat over coffee or something and ask her if something has happened that’s causing her to respond like you’re somehow doubting her ability to do her job. Maybe you made a throw-away comment she latched onto. Maybe her personal life is a mess and she feels out of control. Maybe she’s just a jerk. See what she says.

      2. If 1. doesn’t work or you don’t want to ask: don’t acknowledge the bad bits. To both scenarios, you could respond “Ok, just checking! Thanks!” and pretend you were deaf and blind to the “I’m very good at my job how dare you question me” and “are you implying I’m a slacker” parts because what you’re doing and saying is so common to the work world I don’t know why she’s getting her feathers ruffled like that. But yeah being around someone who is constantly being defensive is draining.

    4. LCL*

      What changed a few months ago? Reorg, new boss, threats of layoffs? What I’m saying is her new attitude may have very little to do with you, and a lot to do with her circumstances.

      1. Lissa*

        Nothing much really – the only thing I can think of is that I got a pretty significant raise, but she was one of the coworkers encouraging me to ask for one! Maybe something in her personal life happened…

    5. baconeggandcheeseplease*

      Is there some reason you can’t just be CC’ed on those sort of client emails? It seems like a pain (for everyone involved) for the client to email her just so she can forward it to you when you can just be cc’ed on things and cut out these follow up emails.

      1. Lissa*

        I usually am CC’d on them! I just asked her that one time because I thought maybe the client had forgot to CC me, so I hadn’t gotten it. It was more a “I haven’t heard from her, have you?” rather than a request for her to forward an email, which isn’t normally procedure.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      “Coworker, for quite a while we got a long great. Now, all of the sudden it seems like I can’t say anything right. I seem to be offending you every time I ask a question. What’s up with that?”

  205. Pookie Lou*

    When I took my current job in an unfamiliar industry last year, I thought it would relate enough to my interests/preferred field to be an okay fit for me. It is, in fact, a horrible fit for me on every level, from the culture to the work itself. My mental and emotional health have majorly suffered since working here. I. Must. Leave.

    For several months now, I have studied and prepared extensively for a transition to a freelance career in my desired field, which I previously didn’t feel ready to pursue. My husband is supportive. We can live on his income until my freelancing is profitable. We feel that this is my best move. Bonus: Freelancing will accommodate a medical issue that can make working set hours in an office incredibly difficult.

    I plan to give my resignation Monday. A member of my team is on maternity until May, but at the rate things are going, my mental/physical/emotional health won’t hold out until she is back (My family, friends, and therapist all agree; I have to take care of me). So I am giving 4 weeks’ notice to give my boss a good head start hiring my replacement. It seems like the right thing to do.

    So what do I give as my reason for leaving? I know people will ask, especially my boss. He remains oblivious to my struggles, despite me regularly bringing them up, and even saying outright that I would thrive better in a different role, so he might feel blindsided.

    It’s not like I got hired elsewhere and MUST start in April. The timing is 100% my choice. I can say an exciting new opportunity came up, but it didn’t “come up”; I created it, as my LinkedIn profile will soon attest. My medical issue came up after I decided I want out, so I can’t honestly cite that as my reason. How do I respond professionally and positively if/when people ask why I can’t just stick it out until May, if I am leaving on my own terms? (Is it suddenly acceptable, by chance, to respond that I already feel like every day is “sticking it out”, give everyone the finger, and loudly sing a meddley of breakup songs as I dance out of the building?)

    1. analytica*

      You have brought up your struggles to your manager. If he feels blindsided, that’s on him.

      Do people know that the medical issue came up after you decided to get out? Because if not, that’s perfectly appropriate enough and valid-sounding enough that people won’t be able to question you on it.

      If you’re moving into freelancing anyways and people will soon find out on LinkedIn, then I presume you’re not counting on all their references moving forward. Don’t feel like you need to give everyone the perfect answer for your departure. If people ask you why you can’t stick it out till May (which is rude IMO), you are free to say “I considered it, but couldn’t make that work out; I hope you understand” and end it there.

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      You don’t need to justify your departure if you don’t want to, but if you feel you must you can always be vague, “I’m excited to start a new career path and my plans only allow for a 4-week notice period,” and then keep them on lather rinse repeat if they keep asking. “Oh, I’m leaving to start a new career path.” “My plan is to start a new career path.” make a game of saying the exact same words in different order
      to amuse yourself. “In weeks, numbering 4, the path of my career will begin anew.”

    3. Kir Royale*

      “An exciting new opportunity came up” sounds perfect. And its true, the fact that you created the opportunity doesn’t make it any less true. If things are really that bad, then no need to drag it out, give two weeks notice.

    4. Mel*

      You don’t owe them staying until May, or a detailed explanation–I think you can just say “I’m moving on to a new direction in my career, and won’t be available after XX date due to those obligations.”

      1. o.b.*

        Absolutely! Be so, so vague. I wouldn’t even say “due to x obligations”; I would just cut it off at “not available after x date.” You’re not available. You’re moving on to a great opportunity. You’re giving a generous notice period. (You are!)

        And major congratulations for being able to move onto an exciting and healthy opportunity.

    5. Observer*

      You don’t need an excuse.

      You are leaving to start your own business and this is the best time for you. Lather, rinse repeat.

  206. E.L.*

    I recently resigned from my tech job of 3.5 years and appropriately gave two-weeks notice. I’m taking a year off to travel, which has been a plan of mine for years. Unfortunately, my manager (and longtime friend) was angry with me and condemned my decision to leave alongside my CEO. Together, they berated me for almost an hour and were dismissive of my reasons for leaving and questioned my future. That evening, I was instructed not to come back to the office the next day. As a necessary asset to my company, I was surprised to be cut off without a chance to transfer my projects over to my other team members.

    Now, two weeks out, my manager has been contacting my personal email with work question after work question. I’ve been responding to him. Friends are telling me he didn’t have my back, so why should I have his? I resigned politely and respectfully, and offered a two week courtesy that was turned away. Should I block him and go off the radar entirely?

    1. MissCPA*

      Based on how they reacted when you resigned I don’t think you need to respond. If it were me I wouldn’t reply. They probably shouldn’t have had their temper tantrums about it and let you take care of this during your notice period. Too bad they didn’t!

    2. Effie, who is pondering*

      I’m really tempted to answer “yes” and my hesitation is in whether you need this company as a reference in the future.

      I think you should stop working for free. Maybe the next time he asks you for help, tell him that you’d need to be paid a retainer/consulting rate? And then don’t answer any more of his other emails unless he/the company agrees and pays you.

      I think if you can afford to burn this reference to burn it though. He’s being very disrespectful.

      1. Trillion*

        Yes, this is the best of both worlds. You get to cut him off or you get $$$ (and consulting fees ain’t cheap!)

    3. Colette*

      I wouldn’t block him, but I’d be slow to respond (let the email sit a couple of days before answering) and then provide answers that take less than a minute to send, including whatever time you need to figure out the answer. And if you can’t remember, you can’t remember.

    4. Murphy*

      I’d probably send one more message to say that you won’t be answering any more questions, and then don’t respond to anything else. Something like “I gave two weeks notice, and would have been happy to discuss these matters during that time. That period of time has now passed, so I’m unable to discuss these issues further.”

    5. CatCat*

      It kind of depends whether you want to smooth over the relationship or not.

      If not, I’d reply to the next email that you are no longer able to answer work questions and then set up an email rule dumping all their emails into SPAM. I think Murphy’s script is to the point.

      If yes, “I’m sorry, but my schedule no longer allows me to devote time answering these email questions. I can set up a quick 20-30 minute call to answer any final questions, but after that, I am not available.” And then stick to it. But this is only if you really care about preserving a relationship here. They certainly didn’t do anything to try and preserve it on their end!

    6. Mel*

      I don’t think you need to block him, but you absolutely don’t need to respond to him. You offered to stay on your two weeks and help with the transition; he instead made you leave that day. He made his bed and now he should have to lie in it.
      If you don’t want to just ignore him, you could respond one last time and say something like “I won’t be able to help you with work requests anymore.”

    7. o.b.*

      Absolutely agree with everyone else that if you like, you can completely write off the emails. If you’d rather keep things explicitly civil and give a heads-up, you could use some language above to explain that you’re not available for questions anymore.

      My personal opinion is that it is kind (they may not deserve kindness, but you may choose to extend it anyway—perhaps for the sake of your coworkers or perhaps just to feel good) to reply to brief, specific questions such as “what is this password that only you know?” or “where can I find this file that no one else can locate?” but basically nothing beyond that. And since they didn’t give you time to appropriately plan a transition, again, you aren’t *obligated* even to do that.

      Alison also has a bunch of great posts on this.

  207. LUCYVP*

    Does anyone have suggestions for training/education for a staff member who is struggling with some admin software skills.

    We are restructuring and I have a team member who is trying to take on more high level administrative duties but is struggling with utilizing Word/Excel/Outlook beyond the basics. He wasn’t hired for those skills so his limits in that vein haven’t been a problem until now. This restructure could be a great opportunity for him to move up in our organization and I want to support him with some training or assistance.

    I answer specific questions he has (how do I do X) but often he doesn’t know what to ask, I think he needs a general overview.

    I have considered Lynda.com/Linked In but I’m wondering what the other options are.

    1. Admin admin*

      I really like the courses on Lynda.com. If he knew what to ask, googling would get him some good help, but since he doesn’t, you’re right that he needs some kind of course. Sorry, I don’t have suggestions beyond Lynda.com!

    2. Chaordic One*

      In the past, some of my former employers sent employees to the local community college on company time to take formal classes in various MS Office courses. If the employee passed the course with at least a “C” grade, the company would reimburse them the cost of tuition and books.

  208. Wired*

    Okay, I have a story about tech issues at work. My office didn’t have phone or Internet for about 2 weeks. We were still expected to come to the office, bring our personal laptops, and use our own WiFi via cell phones or work on a slow office hotspot (think dial-up bad). We got reimbursed if we went over our phone data and had to pay more money. Needless to say, this made everyone upset, particularly the commuters. Without phones or web access no one could do their jobs and we would have been better working from our own homes. The office obviously can’t shut down but expecting employees to waste time (and money) commuting and barely being productive is ridiculous. Thoughts?

    1. Trillion*

      Yes that would have royally pissed me off. What a waste of time for everyone, including finance who had to do all that reimbursing. Plus, I’m pretty sure people wouldn’t be able to receive the reimbursement before the bill is due.

      Also I would have refused to use my personal laptop. That opens up all sorts of fun potential problems for the future.

      Nope nope nope. I wouldn’t have died the hill and gotten fired over it, but I would have certainly brought this up with whatever compliance or IT security personnel were available.

    3. Mel*

      This seems so odd to me. Two whole weeks?! How is that possible in this day and age? What was so wrong that it couldn’t be fixed in two weeks?? And like others have said, even if they reimbursed you for going over your data, what if some people didn’t have personal laptops?

      1. Wired*

        Major server issue that took weeks for our IT outsourcer to fix. And the people without laptops would just come in on their cell phones or borrow one of the spare two computers. Yeah, it was insane.

        1. Mel*

          I can’t imagine doing all my work on my cell phone for one day, let alone two weeks. Ugh.

        2. Observer*

          It took TWO WEEKS for your IT people to fix your problem?!?!?!?

          I think that everyone needs to push the PTB to find a new service provider. That is utter insanity. We’ve totally replaced servers in less time than that.

  209. Sparkly Lady*

    Is there a way to motivate a peer to be more pro-active about doing more than the bare minimum for the job?

    I’m part of a small documentation team. It’s a small company that hasn’t had writers, so everything is new. My peer is a senior-level writer with years and years of experience. They’ve mentioned to me struggling to fill their time and find work to do.

    But there is a TON of work they could be doing. The primary deliverable that we collaborate on is a hot mess in terms of tone and consistency because it’s cobbled together from different SMEs. They apparently didn’t bother to find out who the expected users for the documentation are or even what the primary form for the deliverable is, even though the potential options include completely non-technical users or technical experts. If they were overworked or a brand new writer, I would understand not knowing enough to do this type of developmental editing work, but they’re neither.

    1. sunshyne84*

      Do you have a whiteboard or something you can use to list tasks? When they aren’t doing other things, maybe it would help to see exactly all the other things that they could make some progression on?

      1. Sparkly Lady*

        We do not, but I have created a list of tasks that includes finding answers to these questions. I’ve also identified some technical areas that we need to know more about relating to optimizing our workflows. I’m the official superuser, so it’s my responsibility to figure out the specifics. But if they have time to kill (as they say they do), doing some background reading and learning more about the basic issues would be logical.

        To me, it comes across as waiting for me to give them very specific tasks. I’m not opposed to giving tasks if it would be helpful, but right now it feels like overstepping since I’m a peer and not a manager.

        Your question is making me wonder now if I can incorporate some of this into our workflow tracking, though. We’ve borrowed the software development workflow as a starting point. It applies pretty well, but I’m already tasked with improving it.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      I would try, “have you been doing X, Y, and Z? I find that it’s really helpful to the end user, and I consider it part of our job.” And talk to your manager (assuming it’s the same one for both of you) about formalizing steps that you are taking and they are not, to become required parts of your process if that is helpful to the end user.

  210. Higher Ed Database Dork*

    For Elizabeth H. –

    I worked in adjacent roles like you did – started as LMS support in the distance education department, so I gained a lot of IT knowledge and worked with our main help desk, but just at an application troubleshooting level. In my same dept, I started filling a need for reporting – people wanted usage stats for students using the LMS, so I started learning SQL and database fundamentals. My dept was reorganized into a learning analytics unit (separate from IT), and I came along in a BI analyst role. After a couple years, another BI analyst position opened in the actual IT department, and I applied, and joined a team responsible for all non-SIS databases on campus. I was then promoted into a developer role and now I’m mostly working on ETL development in our two data warehouses. My career goal is to be a database administrator, and my boss is working with me towards this goal. Our senior DBA is an Oracle guy, and we also support MySQL and MSSQL.

    I do not have a background in IT or programming. In fact my bachelor’s degree is in English. I never took any CS or programming classes. I have loved working with computers since my family first got an old 286 back in the 90s, and I taught myself basic web design using HTML/CSS. I also did some graphic design. I have always been pretty tech-savvy so I can pick up stuff quickly, and that’s helped me get where I am today. I originally planned on being either a teacher or librarian! But my first job out of college was working on digitizing a specialty archive – sounds cool but it was actually just taking a bunch of index cards and entering them into an Access database for a bunch of elderly ladies who volunteered at a library to keep records of their women’s organization. From there I got into distance education/LMS support.

    If you are wanting to work directly with databases or development, I would say start cultivating relationships with your IT division. Talk with people, ask to help them out, ask if they have any openings. Most schools seem to love hiring from within since that means you already have the institutional knowledge, so really play that up. I’m happy to answer any other questions you have!

    1. Elizabeth H.*

      That’s so cool! This sounds so much like me. I have a humanities bachelor degree and absolutely no formal training in tech, programming etc. but I always pick up stuff like that quickly, I love anything analytical or systems based and I developed a lot of reporting and analyzing methods in my previous job (working in graduate school office). I started teaching myself database functions basically just for the sake of learning it, and trying to organize all of our student data which wasn’t imported into our SIS when my school merged with another. I was planning on trying to pick up some SQL next (all of this is pretty outside the original scope of my job, but helps). Now I work in continuing education, and recently I’ve been working outside of my main role on an IT project integrating a new platform into our existing systems, so I’ve been thinking a lot more about how I could move into more technical roles. I’m pretty sure I want to do something that is more higher ed research/policy rather than technical work, as my “end goal” for career but still looking at options for getting there. Thank you so much for sharing!

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        In that case I would speak to people in institutional reporting or analytics, things like that. Your experience sounds great, and can really parlay into that kind of work well. If you haven’t already, try to learn Tableau, Power BI, and some other visual analytics tools.

        Raw SQL is always good to know, even if you’re not writing it that often. It’s just good to understand the underlying logic. There are lots of good free tutorials out there, I like the Brent Ozar series (some are free, some are not) because they explain things pretty well.

        Also keep an eye on the job board and apply for stuff that interests you as soon as you see it, even if it’s a stretch. In my case, I applied for the developer role first, but I just didn’t have enough experience in the area they wanted. But they hired me in the BI analyst role because of my knowledge. And 6 months later, I was doing so well that they promoted me into the developer position! Of course it’s different at every school, but I get the sense they are more willing to train internal candidates because you already know how your school works.

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          Thank you for the suggestions! I will definitely look into Tableau and Power BI. I subscribe to the newsletters etc. from Chandoo.org, an Excel site I love, and he has a lot of content about Power BI lately. I really appreciate the advice.

  211. Yorkshire Rose*

    Those who have been job searching and landed a new one – how long did it take you to find and get the new position?

    2. Effie, who is pondering*

      When I was working at ToxicJob that sapped all my energy, 8 months.
      When I moved and was really picky since I could afford to be and was doing lots of self-care, 5 months.

    3. Anon around the world*

      To get first job out of college, a year. 2 months to get 2nd job (got laid off, so I panicked and took the first thing that came along). Almost immediately realized that one wasn’t a good fit, so I casually started looking several months in, then actively a year later. All in all, took over 2 years to get the third job. Hopefully it won’t take as long to find the next one.

    4. o.b.*

      Last time, I applied for about 10+ jobs (small industry representation in my area was limiting—I applied for basically everything reasonable), interviewed maybe at 4 of them, and took 4 months to find a job that made me an offer 2 days after the interview.

      This time, I applied for 1 job and it took 6 months to get through the whole process. That was them moving quickly ;)

      Some of my friends out of college? A year or more to find something in their industry of choice.

      So “months” is totally reasonable, even if it feels endless.

  212. Unladen Sparrow*

    How soon is too soon to change roles internally in an organization? This is my first job out of college and I’ve been here about 9 months. I’m working as an admin assistant for one department at a non-profit, a department which I’ve come to really enjoy. However, an opening was just announced for what is essentially the same as my position, with possibly a slight step up and some added duties, and it’s in the department that’s more closely aligned with my degree and would be working with clients who have degrees like mine. However, I still wouldn’t actually be using my degree, which is in a sciences field. I really like the people on my current team, and I know a couple of the people on the other team and like them, but haven’t worked directly with them much. I’m not sure that I would get a raise with as small of a step up it would be. So, is it too soon to transition? I’m sure this role or another similar one in other departments will open up again in the not too terribly distant future, but I admittedly would like the chance to work a little more closely with my field.

    1. Mel*

      At least a year is a good general rule to go by. But if you really want to apply, the role you’re applying to isn’t a big step up from yours, and you’re in good standing at your job, I don’t think applying at 9 months would be totally ridiculous…the worst they can do is say no, you haven’t had enough experience yet.

    2. Little Bean*

      Since you’re talking about changing internally, I think the window is shorter than if you were leaving your organization. I’d still say about a year, but I think 9 months is close enough to apply if you’re really interested – it’s quite likely that by the time they go through all the interviews and reference checks and negotiations, and you give notice, it may be a year anyway.

      However, my concern would be leaving a job you enjoy for one is only a slight step up. Personally, I wouldn’t leave a job I liked after only a year unless either a) the job was terrible and I couldn’t stand it any longer, or b) the new job was significantly better in some way. I feel like it takes usually a year to really get to know a job and be doing it well, and I want to build a track record of doing it at a high level for a while before I consider leaving.

    3. Internal job hopper*

      Heh, I applied for (and got) an internal job 2 weeks after starting at my company. People move around a lot here. I’ve had around 10 jobs in the 10 years I’ve been here. The longest has been 2 years, the shortest 6 weeks.

  213. Jillociraptor*

    Please share resources for learning about nonprofit accounting and financial analysis!

    I work for a smallish nonprofit (so: lots of hustle and multiple hats!) and it would add a ton of value if I could develop some moderate expertise in accounting and financial strategy and analysis. I know how to build and track budgets, and read reports like forecasts, P&Ls and statements of financial position, but most of my experience is in basically spending down an annual allocation from a central office. I need to learn the vocabulary, financial accounting systems, how to manage restricted funds, how to deal with revenue, etc., to start, and then some deeper learning to get me to the point of being able to oversee a finance function of experts (e.g. we can hire a bookkeeper and a financial analyst to do the work, but I need to know what they’re doing and how it fits into our financial strategy.)

    Do you know of any good classes (bonus if online!), resources, books, etc. that would help me on my way? I could pay for a program but generally learn best independently first–still, would definitely take suggestions of more formal programs to check out!

    1. Observer*

      A lot depends on where you are. If you are in a larger city, check to see if there are programs from either government agencies or non-profit advocacy / umbrella groups.

      The Foundation Center is in Manhattan, but a lot of their resources are on line. They may have something useful, as well.

  214. AnonShoppingHater*

    Late, but a clothes question.

    I am a mid-level, mid-career professional taking a new role that will be more outward facing. I do just fine dressing myself now, but I am in a biz casual office and only occasionally client facing. I’m a mostly neutral colored slacks and sweaters/tops kind of person.

    Is there a rule of thumb to figure out how much to spend on wardrobe and what to wear? I have suits, but I always kind of feel like a 40 y.o. kid dressed in an interview suit, and I am not one to get separates properly pulled together. I also wonder if I should be wearing nicer, more expensive clothes and shoes. I tend to buy my nicest stuff at Express and it goes downhill from there. I am happy to buy a $3 sweater on clearance at JCP, but a $200 jacket sits in my closet because it is too nice. Only because I don’t know if it matters, my role pays in the $150k range in the Midwest. I have not stepped up my clothes game at all since I was entry level; in fact, I wear pants that are 10 yrs old sometimes. . .

    1. Queen Bee*

      Hi there not sure if you’re a gal or a guy. If a gal (thinking maybe b/c you mention JCP..but I could be way off) then I would recommend browsing through Corporette, specifically this post: http://corporette.com/wardrobe-essentials-for-work/
      They give solid advice for various budgets that I have followed in the past.
      Also….if I am struggling with a decision for an outfit, work or otherwise, I usually ask the most trendy looking & friendly sales associate at the store I am at. Have NEVER gone wrong with that, they give really good advice.

      If you’re a guy…then the clothes-savvy gentlemen here should weigh in :)

    2. Mel*

      As long as you look polished and professional, I don’t think there’s a certain budget rule for how much your clothes should cost, or where they should come from. Most people can’t tell where clothes are from or how expensive they are anyway. How you dress now sounds totally fine, but I wouldn’t worry that a nice jacket is too nice to meet clients either.

    3. fposte*

      Corporette is the blog people always point to for this stuff. However, I also think there’s other stuff going on there. Do you have a budget that identifies how much you expect to spend on clothes (and other things, including retirement savings) for the month and/or year? When you say the jacket is “too nice,” what does that mean you’ll afraid will happen when you wear it? Are you worried that you’ll ruin it, worried that it’s too nice for the likes of you and that you’re putting on airs by wearing it, something else?

      I think there’s a lot to be said for upping one’s clothing game, but there are a lot of different ways to do it. I think you could stick within your current pattern of neutral slacks with sweaters and just upgrade the materials and cut, get tailoring done, and practice a solid accessories habit, for instance, rather than becoming a suit person (and there’s nothing wrong with 10-year-old slacks if they fit you and look good, rather than looking like they’re ten years old). What you might consider doing is deciding on an amount that you want to spend to do this and hit up a Nordstrom for a personal shopper. And really figure out a minimum, not just a ceiling–this is allotted money for a purpose, not a spree.

      I also really like the YouTube channel Justine Leconte officiel; she’s got a particularly good video that talks about the difference between well-made and poorly made clothes that I think you’ll find enlightening.

      1. Observer*

        When you say the jacket is “too nice,” what does that mean you’ll afraid will happen when you wear it? Are you worried that you’ll ruin it, worried that it’s too nice for the likes of you and that you’re putting on airs by wearing it, something else?

        This is something that jumped out at me. Combined with the comment about feeling like they are “a kid dressed up”, I think that that’s something to unpack.

        I think you could stick within your current pattern of neutral slacks with sweaters and just upgrade the materials and cut, get tailoring done, and practice a solid accessories habit, for instance, rather than becoming a suit person

        Very much this. Especially in a fairly casual environment.

        And really figure out a minimum, not just a ceiling–this is allotted money for a purpose, not a spree.

        This, too. A lot of us have some rather odd ideas about spending money on clothes. And it can be hard to address because it’s often not conscious. But it’s not wasteful, vain or selfish (or any other negative things) to spend money on clothes that fit well, are of good quality, and look good and appropriate to the environment. And, yes, I get that some people cannot afford. That doesn’t mean that when you can afford this, it’s a problem to spend that money.

    4. Delta Delta*

      Cheers to the $3 sweater from JCP! I had one of those that I wore until it basically turned into nothing. It was a great sweater. And it was cheap (although I seem to remember mine being $4.77.).

      To answer you seriously, I’m a lawyer and buy most of my suits at J.Crew, as I find they hold up very well and tend to be true to size. I also buy a lot of non-suit, but still good-looking clothes from some outdoor retailers, like Patagonia, Prana, Ibex, Columbia, etc. Good looking, durable, and often on big sales at the ends of seasons.

    5. Observer*

      I think that the first thing you need to do is to change your mind set a bit. You need to feel comfortable wearing “nice” clothes. Nothing should be “too nice”.

      Now, it’s possible that any given item is too formal or too dressy for a particular environment, but that’s a different calculation.

      From what I’ve seen, once you are comfortable and confident in your clothing choices and don’t feel like stuff is “too good” or “too adult” or “too ” for you, you’ll have an easier time of settling on an appropriate wardrobe. And, to the extent that your wardrobe non-typical, it will be less likely to make you look less serious or competent (assuming you are not doing anything ridiculous) because it’s coming from a place of confidence not of underselling yourself.

      Having said that, I do think you should probably step up your dress game. Not that a nice pair of pants with a nice sweater is inappropriate. But they should be NICE, well cut, good quality pants and a sweater. When you are client facing, you may want to step that up a bit, but that largely depends on your industry.

      1. Observer*

        Oops. I forgot that the angle brackets make things disappear. After the third “too” it should have said “positive descriptor of your choice”.

  215. ThatLibTech*

    For those of you who went from being an assistant/tech to a librarian, what made you want to make that jump? Do you think you would’ve been better off staying as an assistant/tech due to job finding issues?

    I’m torn between going back to school (2-4 yrs depending on the degree and where) and go for my MLIS or staying as a Tech but I’m hesitant. I like what I do, but I also like the idea of being a librarian? Idk.

    1. Librarygal30*

      I knew I wanted to be a librarian, so I made the decision to get my MLS. I had a super hard time finding an entry-level librarian job, so I took one as an on-call library assistant about a year after I finished my degree. I worked there for over a year, and now I have been a real librarian for almost 6 months! Life complicated a few things in that process, but know that it may take a while for you to find a librarian job, in a location you want.

    2. SparklingStars*

      I would only recommend getting your MLIS if your employer will help pay for it. It’s not a cheap degree, and it’s a pretty competitive field.

  216. Queen Bee*

    Anyone have advice on planning meals for longer days at the office? I’ve had several of those lately and next week it’s looking like that too. Those days are seriously messing with my gut. I have to eat small portions frequently, instead of having , say a big lunch and then dinner. I thought I was pretty good at managing, but I still ended up getting hungry at 5pm and buying a bagel with cheddar cheese at our caf, and having a smallish dinner at 9pm after finishing the day at 7pm. I don’t like doing that cause I usually end up feeling gross with such a late meal and bloated the next day. I work hard to eat healthy…but this timing thing is not working out well. I have a bout a 40min drive home and sometimes will stop to do an errand or two on the way and once to twice a month I’ll end up eating chips btw home and work. The other thing I end up doing after long work days is having brie with crackers right before heating up dinner…again feels gross afterwards. With a touchy stomach, this is a terrible idea, but the craving is sometimes stronger than my willpower. Any tips/tricks on a) managing food on longer work days and b) curbing pre-dinner cravings?

    1. paul*

      how are you on fruits and veggies, or do they mess with your stomach? I kept a lot of bananas, pears, carrots, apples and the like at the office when we were in full disaster mode. Gave me something healthy and satisfying when pulling those 12+ hour shifts. I felt weird bringing an ice chest to work (our fridge crapped out), but hey, it worked OK for me. That and cold chicken.

      1. Queen Bee*

        Thx for sharing your strategy. And great question..I am ok but not in crazy amounts ..i.e. can’t have 5 servings of fruits in one evening and I have to have granola or something with it anyway cause otherwise I end up more hungry..go figure.

    2. baconeggandcheeseplease*

      High protein snacks! I sometimes get a bag of almonds (like a pound) and keep them at my desk. Trail mix would work too. Cheese & grapes, or cheese and crackers, or peanut butter + crackers/(whole grain) toast. Yogurt. Smoothies?

      When I’m not lazy, I make oatmeal (the quick cooking kind but not instant packs) with peanut butter + a banana at work and that usually holds me over for way longer, and then I can save the snacks for the afternoon. Hummus & pita. Make sure you’re drinking a lot of water too.

      1. Ambpersand*

        +1000 for high protein snacks. They are a lifesaver. I really like Dannon Oikos yogurts and pre-cooked chicken bacon. Both really high in protein, very satisfying, and I never have that “yuck” feeling after eating them.

      2. baconeggandcheeseplease*

        Sorry if that reads sort of dysfunctional haha, I have a lot of thoughts about snacks…

    3. Ambpersand*

      I have strategically planned snack breaks and pack for them every single day. I’ll eat them even if I’m not super hungry because if I don’t, I’ll be starving and hangry by the next meal time- then I end up gorging or binging on something really unhealthy because I don’t want to wait on cooking a meal. My big one though is eating something during the late afternoon/right before my commute home, which is between 45 min-1 hour long. It’s usually a small Muscle Milk protein shake, organic granola bar, or even just a piece of fruit (all of which I can keep in my purse or at my desk because they don’t need to be refrigerated), but it’s enough to top me off until I can get home and take my time to cook a decent meal. For your situation I would just increase the frequency of those snack breaks and make sure you aren’t missing them.

      1. Queen Bee*

        Yes the gorging on something unhealthy before cooking a meal keeps happening to me way too often. And the drive home is the same problem for me..I thought I was the only one with poor self control on that front. I got some really solid ideas from everyone..and after 4pm on a Friday at that:) Thank you :)

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      Hi, are you me? I know you’re not, because you drive to work, but I completely sympathize.

      I’ve started keeping beef jerky and graham crackers at my desk — better for my diet than most of what’s available at our vending machine. The cafe downstairs has really disappointing fruit/veg options, so I mostly deal with a combination of a) bringing a filling lunch, b) stocking my desk with decent snacks, and c) having a couple of go-to meals for dinner orders, since we’re in enough of a crunch period right now that I eat dinner at the office once or twice a week right now :(

      Fortunately, my office allows individual dinner orders if you’re working late — I’d tear my hair out if I had to figure out every night what I can eat that fits into whatever place the majority of my coworkers voted for.

      1. Queen Bee*

        Thanks so much:) have never actually tried beef jerky…so might as well try it now. And yah it sounds like you might be me, the non-driving version…because our caf has also crummy fruit/veg options and closes earlier than it should, compared to how long some ppl stay to work. Also their lunch food upsets many stomachs so equally disappointing on that end too.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Single serving tuna fish or salmon in pouches. Beef jerky is pretty unhealthy. Check out the Epic Bar (epicbar dot com). I get these healthier meat snacks for my husband. Single serving Mario brand olive packs (I get these in bulk from Amazon).

    5. Kuododi*

      My sympathies…. I’m an insulin dependant diabetic and I additionally struggle with gastroparesis. (What I eat, I throw up.). With time and practice, I have discovered I tend to do better managing my sugar and chronic nausea if I stick with high protein, low acid foods. (ie Almonds, cheese, lean meats, fish, no tomatoes, onions, citrus fruits etc). Additionally I have for the most part decaffeinated myself. Best wishes!!! Hope this helps!!!!

  217. Mel*

    Does anyone have coworkers who seem to be otherwise normal people, but have really strange, really random quirks?

    I ask because I recently moved desks in my office, and the woman next to me is on my team, but our work doesn’t overlap. She has been perfectly polite and friendly…except that she keeps moving her desk trash can to under my desk. At random points throughout the day I come back to my desk to find that it has been placed next to my chair. There is a large bookshelf in between our desks, so it would be hard to do by accident. At first I thought the cleaning staff was just placing it randomly after they emptied the trash, so I would just slide it back under her desk, thinking she must want her trash can. Then…about a week ago, I was sitting at my desk when she arrived at work. She said hello, and when I went back to typing, she slid her trash can away from her desk and under mine. Said nothing, and did it right in front of me, like this was totally normal. I was so taken aback I didn’t say anything. She doesn’t throw away anything gross, but she still uses it while it’s under my desk. For the life of me I can’t understand why she does this, and why she thinks it’s fine to just put her trash with my stuff. She is moving to a different office soon, so I’m just putting up with it until she leaves, since there’s an end in sight…

    Anyway! What strange coworker quirks have you experienced?

    1. Queen Bee*

      The guy who sits across from me (facing me) hums as he works along. NEVER saw that coming. He is such a quiet, normal dude. I think I’m the only one that hears it haha.

    2. Havarti*

      Does that mean you have two trash cans under your desk? I would be so tempted to slide to back her way while maintaining eye contact the entire time. Or move it to other side of your desk so she can’t reach it easily. My trash now. Thank goodness she’s moving soon.

      1. Anony*

        I would relocate the bin too either to the other side of her desk, my desk or literally anywhere else it can go. And I would do it when she is there so that she knows that I don’t want it under my desk.

        1. o.b.*

          This would be so off-putting to me (and also, like LCL said, something she probably doesn’t even think about impacting you—which might be instinctual, but is still rude) that I would just call it out in the moment. “Hey, when you move your trash can, can you put it somewhere other than under my desk? (Note: phrased as a question, but not actually optional.) I get that we have limited space etc etc, but moving your trash can to my desk just takes up more of my space. Is there somewhere neutral it can go?”

          Anyone who pushes back on this EMINENTLY REASONABLE request is RIDICULOUS.

    3. LCL*

      I know why she does this. I felt a little bit claustrophobic reading your post. She wants more space. She’s not thinking about it beyond her animal brain pushing an obstacle out of her way. So it is a deliberate action, but there isn’t a lot of thought involved.

      I’m the one with the strange quirk. If I’m at a meeting I neatly lay out my silenced phones and notepad and pen. Then I start squaring them up and rearranging them. I’m trying really hard to stop this, it looks very derpy.

      1. o.b.*

        Haha, probably true—and MY animal brain would be like, get your stupid obstacle OUT of MY space!!

        I would die on this hill.

  218. TotesMaGoats*

    Had my first annual evaluation. To my surprise, because I fully expected a “meets standards” since that’s what I would’ve given me in my boss’s shoes, I got the highest score in the sub categories and overall. Not that we get raises or anything but I was so surprised. My boss said I was made for this job. When I think to my last boss and how that place really messed me up, I can’t quite fathom how I managed to get somewhere so supportive.

    I’m also sure that my counterpart did not get those scores but will also not have any consequences. That’s frustrating.

    Also, it’s so windy today that the blinds inside my office are moving. Seriously.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      That must have been great to hear! It is hard to recalibrate after a difficult situation.

  219. Rock Prof*

    There was a post this past week where someone asked about their campus using some portfolio software. I think there was a general consensus that school projects, accept in some specific fields, weren’t particularly useful or wanted (I’m generalizing, of course). And I have a particular question that might just be my field-specific but maybe could be applicable to others. I want to note that I have worked only at universities since I was in high school when I had an internship in a lab, so I am probably the embodiment of the unaware academic.
    I teach in STEM (geology), and for quite a few of my classes, my students produce projects that involve original research on their part. Quite a few of my classes are based on both theory and the skills needed to study it, so I’d teach about llama formation and change, and we’d also do labs and things on applied llama mapping, llama identification, etc.
    For some of the projects, these are more academic science (non-applied) studies that can be presented at the campus research symposium or, occasionally, regional conferences. I don’t really think many people care about the students actual powerpoint or poster, but just a line about a presentation, at least, is a valid thing to include on a resume, right? I know it’s great on an academic CV, but I’m pretty bad at translating between the CV and resume.
    For others, my class or independent study students are working with a local nonprofit group, say llama conservation. Students actually collect real-time data on llama frequency and location, and they produce reports, maps, graphs, etc. for this group. The group actually uses the data, and I guide the projects based on what the conservation group actually wants. Again, I’m not sure how useful these materials are as an actual, physical/virtual portfolio item, but is this kind of project something that could reasonably be put on a resume without someone thinking the student is totally naive? Particularly if they highlight the conservation group connection?

  220. Fabulous*

    Why is it with some people that when I ask (what I think) is a fairly straightforward question via email or IM, they feel the need to call and talk to me for 10+ minutes about thought processes and minute details of the topic that in no way relates to the question at hand? I have a coworker that’s done this to me twice today. And she’s our team lead too! I put together a presentation of all out month-end data and just need her and our other coworker Jane to send me their reports. I don’t understand WHY she feels the need to call and explain things when it most often requires literally a one-sentence answer. Our exchanges today were as follows:
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Me: What does “Supervisor” mean in the coaching column on your report?
    Her: Well, I didn’t think it was fair that this person had XYZ when everyone else wasn’t getting any and I felt bad doing any at all so as it happened ….. and so when I passed along the info I thought I would send it to their supervisor instead of the rep and I put Email in this other place and then for this …… and that’s why I put “Supervisor” in that spot.
    Me: Ok, so it’s just coaching feedback you sent to the supervisor.
    Her: Right.
    Me: …
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Me: Were you able to get Jane’s details pulled yet for City A?
    Her: I’m confused. Jane’s details?
    Me: Oh sorry, I meant the scores not the details. You send an email with the scores for Cities B, C, and D but not A. It’s the only score I’m missing.
    Her: All of Jane’s scores were in the email I sent before. I did City A.
    Me: Oh, ok I just had it flipped. Do you have the scores for City A yet?
    Her: I wasn’t able to pull them because the form is missing in the program and I have to go into the intricate areas and try and find the form but I don’t know where it is or what happened to it …. I still have 10 more things to do for Boss and I might have time to pull it afterward …… I don’t know if it’s even going to be there, it just disappeared because other people keep going in and messing with the settings on the program and I don’t know why they just can’t leave it alone.
    Me: Ok, so you don’t have them. That’s fine. Do you have an ETA?
    Her: Like I said I still have 10 more things to do for Boss and I don’t even know if they’ll be in there if I’ll be able to find them and if I can’t find them then we won’t be able to get historical data and …..
    Me: Ok, well I’ll let you go finish those 10 things for Boss and make a note on my presentation that we don’t have the data…
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Fin. SMH.

  221. JakeYashen*

    I am in this really frustrating situation where, despite the fact that i have secured a job in China and will be boarding my plane in just a few weeks, my mom (who I have been visiting with prior to leaving) is demanding that I walk into a local grocery store and get a job stocking shelves in the meantime.

    I’m not the crazy one here, right? It is completely unreasonable to expect to me to find a job, work that job, and quit that job within the span of 2-3 weeks, right?

    1. Ambpersand*

      Uhh, yeah. Definitely. That wouldn’t even be long enough to get trained, and no business is going to invest time an money onboarding an employee just to have them leave in a matter of days.

      1. JakeYashen*

        She seems to be under the impression that I could walk into the nearest grocery store and get hired on the spot stocking shelves.

    2. Thlayli*

      Is she supporting you while you are staying with her? If so She may feel that you should pay your way for those few weeks.

      1. JakeYashen*

        I offered to pay rent for these few weeks and she refused. She claims that I am not financially sound, even though I have $3000 to my name and am spending essentially no money, and claims I am “delusional” for thinking so.

        1. Havarti*

          Getting a job for 3 weeks is pointless. No one will hire you. But $3000 is kinda like Schrödinger’s cat – it both is and isn’t a lot of money. Or rather, it’s a lot of money to spend at once but not a lot to have in the grand scheme of things. So I sorta agree with your mom there. Hope the job in China pays well. You have housing sorted out? Good luck!

          1. JakeYashen*

            I will be teaching English in China, which actually pays well enough that together with my boyfriend we will be pulling in an upper class income (by chinese standards).

            Part of it is that she is concerned that the process will get delayed (again – the whole process has at this point dragged out over multiple months) but I am at the endgame now. I have a job offer and the paperwork for my visa is estimated to be in my hands by March 12, at which point I will mail it off to D.C. for processing, which takes three days. So right now I am looking at a departure date around March 16.

            (To answer your question, yes housing is already sorted. My boyfriend flew out ahead of me and already has an apartment ready)

            1. fposte*

              Have you been staying with her through all those multiple month delays? If so she may not realize that things are genuinely about to come through. (It still doesn’t make her right, but it at least makes her a little more understandable.)

              1. JakeYashen*

                Nope. I have been staying with her for about a bit more than a month now, and that’s it. I expected to be gone sooner, but a job I had signed a contract for(!!) pulled the job offer out from under me despite stringing me along since December. I had to act fast and find a new job, which is the one I’m about to fly out to.

                (Prior to visiting with my mom we were visiting his own mother — part of the reason for all of this is we feel pretty strongly that we are probably going to end up married)

        2. Manders*

          Is it possible that she’s anxious about you moving to China, and it’s showing in this weird money anxiety? My mom was the same way–when she was worried about a really huge thing, the anxiety would leak out as an intense need to control smaller things.

          1. JakeYashen*

            I suppose it’s possible. She won’t shut up about how I’m “moving to a COMMUNIST country!!!!” after all.

            1. Anna*

              Not sure what that’s got to do with anything. Is she worried you’re going to be converted or something?

              1. JakeYashen*

                I am not sure exactly. FWIW she is really nationalistic about the United States. She has on many occasions stated outright that “the USA is the best country in the world” and “none of the other countries in the world are as good as this one.” So i think part of it is just a knee-jerk reaction.

        3. Fabulous*

          I agree with Havarti that $3,000 both is and isn’t a ton of money. If a job doesn’t pan out, that amount will only cover you MAYBE for 3 months. Probably closer to 2.5 months. But it is also pointless to get a job for 3 weeks. You’d add maybe 5% to your savings with a part-time minimum wage job.

          1. JakeYashen*

            The thing is, if something happens and the student visa starts getting really drawn out, in about 25 days the option of a tourist visa opens up to me, and that route is even less likely to involve delays than the student visa. In that scenario I would fly to china on the tourist visa and then change over to a student visa once I was ready to start working.

            (Quick note that working on a student visa is legal, in case anyone is worrying)

            I am spending essentially zero money here in America, and in China the cost of living is incredibly low (think a full healthy dinner plus leftovers for US$2), so after getting to China the $1500 or so I’ll have left after airfare could last me quite a long time.

            1. Thlayli*

              Since you are staying with your mom and spending zero money then she is supporting you. I don’t think she should be screaming at you, but since she is supporting you and she has legitimate reasons to think that this support might be expected for longer than you currently plan, she absolutely has the right to tell you that you either get a job or get out.

              I suggest you find someone else to house and feed you for the three weeks till you plan to start your job since your mother is pretty clearly telling you that she doesn’t want to support you any more as long as you are unemployed.

              1. JakeYashen*

                I know she is supporting me right now. That is why I offered to pay rent — an offer she refused.

    3. Delta Delta*

      My husband’s dear grandmother – who never worked a job a day in her life – suggested to him that during the month between taking the bar exam and starting his brand new first-ever job as a lawyer, that he should get a job “at a soda fountain” (because those were still a thing in the early 2000s in her version of reality) so that he’d be working in the meantime.

      Maybe there are just relatives out there who say things like this.

      1. JakeYashen*

        Unfortunately she’s not just saying — she told me (screamed at me, actually) that if I did not comply she would kick me out of the house. While I don’t have a car. My former roommate is coming to pick me up and take me to her place tomorrow.

        1. Reba*

          Yikes, sorry you’re dealing with that. It sounds like it’s a good thing you’re going to get a lot of distance soon!

        2. fposte*

          Yeah, if your housing is contingent on this, you have to either comply or move housing. And unfortunately I don’t think you’re going to convince your mother of the folly of her requirement anytime soon, so I think finding someplace else to crash and getting some distance from Mom is a good plan. Make sure you take all your crucial travel documents with you when you go.

          1. JakeYashen*

            Yeah, I made the mistake of trying to reason with her and only succeeded in getting myself yelled at (again).

            Tbh, after having her berate me like this so much ofer the past week or so, it started messing with my head. Had to call my boyfriend and have him calm me down (I was panicking) and that’s also why I’m posting here — needed a sanity check.

            Don’t worry, my bags are packed and all of my documents are in one place.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              At this point I am thinking this is a piece of a much larger story.
              Basically, we cannot reason with people who refuse to use reason. I think you know that and you are just holding out for all last hope.
              You failed to get a two-bit job but your mom has failed here on a epic scale. Keep that in mind.

              FWIW, grocery stores put you through so much training before you can start work that very few places would consider your app for three weeks worth of work. By the time you got through training it would be time to leave. Your mom is not up to date on what is going on out there.

              1. JakeYashen*

                I think that is a big part of this — she has explicitly said that I could get hired and start immediately because “stocking shelves doesn’t take any training.”

                The last time she held a job like this was when she was a teenager. She is in her fifties now.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  I am in my 50s also. So I know exactly what she is thinking. A long time ago, you opened a box and threw it on the shelf. That is not what is happening now. It’s more complex than that and you have to be health code trained and compliant.

      1. JakeYashen*

        Thank you so much. Like I said, this whole episode of shenanigans has really messed with my head and I really needed a sanity check.

        I’m so excited about China! I can’t wait.

  222. Butterbean*

    Boss’s birthday is tomorrow. Three days ago, Grandboss emailed me and another coworker (who also reports to Boss), asking us to help him gift a bottle of wine to Boss. Grandboss is on East Coast, and Boss and my team are on West Coast.

    Grandboss said he would reimburse (i.e., he was not asking us to contribute) but he suggested that we go to a specific wine store on the other side of town. I replied that I wouldn’t be able to run the errand—my response was a polite and firm no. (I don’t know how colleague replied, if at all.)

    What I wanted to say to Grandboss: a) running this kind of errand is not part of my or my colleague’s roles; b) if you have a credit card and the internet, you can buy/ship this gift yourself, and nobody has to make a trip across town or front any money; and c) it’s odd that you (male) Grandboss would ask this of two female employees specifically, neither of whom reports to you.

    Grandboss has suggested a meeting to talk about what kind of support I need in my department: I think when I turned down the wine errand he heard “I’m overworked” which is not the case. We have a good relationship, though Grandboss does say sexist and culturally insensitive things pretty often. I have an opportunity to tell him what I really thought of his request, and am curious: would others do the same?

    1. No Way*

      There is no way I’d go get something across town or even across the street for my boss for non-work purposes. Jobs like to guilt trip employees into doing nice things for one another when they would never do the same. Definitely not an inappropriate reaction to say no. And people have personal reasons for not wanting to get involved in office gifts or parties. That should be respected.

    2. Drama Llama*

      This is what casual sexism looks like. If this was a one off incident of sexism I wouldn’t mention it, because it’s only likely to make him defensive and less receptive to your suggestions. But since you say Grandboss frequently says sexist/culturally offensive things, maybe it is worth having a discussion with him (depending of course on your level or rapport and the likelihood of him actually listening to you).

      The wine thing: A lot of the older generation (and I’m going to presume Grandboss is an older dude based on his Grandboss title) don’t immediately think of Internet purchases. So you can politely mention to him “Oh, it would be much more convenient to buy online. Should I send a couple of websites to you if you wanted to choose yourself?”

  223. Diamond Minx*

    I haven’t seen any discussion about the letter from a burlesque troupe that was read on the podcast the other day. I’m a burlesque performer from Canada and now I’m desperately curious about this poor troupe. Our world attracts some very interesting and unique personalities. It can be both intensely feminist and empowering, and terribly dysfunctional – it is a world populated by larger than life strong personalities after all.

    I agree with the advice of going to the boss en masse and laying it out clearly that he needs to act to change the situation. The suggestions to point out the non normalcy of her behaviour might help, but my fear would be that it would just rile her up even worse. You have to remember that they are a bunch of scantily clad women sharing what is probably a tight backstage and getting ready to perform then coming offstage with the emotions that brings up. It’s a vulnerable environment, and I absolutely sympathize with how hard it is for them already.

    I think focusing on the financial hits the company is taking from the boss’s girlfriend might help, and perhaps pointing out to him that she seems depressed and unhappy and might be helped with counseling.

  224. scared*

    AAM commenters, how would you handle this situation? I slept with a consultant for my company a few months ago expecting to not see him again in a professional capacity, and then he broke up with me in a very harsh and threatening manner. It’s been a few months and I’ve gotten over it and thought it was behind me, except now it turns out he’s going to come back and consult for our company again. To make matters worse, I’m in the closet and I’m afraid he could out me.

    How can I handle myself safely and professionally? Should I tell HR?

    1. Drama Llama*

      Considering his personality, is it likely that he will out you or treat you badly based on your previous sexual relationship?

      I would wait and see how he works with you before making any appointments with HR. If you preemptively meet with HR there’s really not much they can do when this person has not done anything that would warrant HR intervention. Just treat him professionally and normally as you would any other consultant who works at your company. Hopefully he will respond the same way. If not, then take your complaints to HR.

      BUT- my answer is based on the assumption that you two are on roughly the same level of seniority. My advice would be different if your position was significantly junior to this person and there was potential power play issues. If a senior consultant was sleeping with, say, an intern or a junior assistant, the possible repercussions (for both the company and the junior employee) are much more serious.

      1. scared*

        I don’t know if he would. I thought he was a great guy until he broke up with me and turned really quickly from affectionate and tender to cruel and threatening. When I asked for an article of clothing back that I’d left at his place, he told me he’d out to me to my family if I ever texted him again.

        I wouldn’t want to meet with HR for anything disciplinary, just to let them know that this could be a factor going forwards.

        Technically he does not work for the same company I do, which is the justification we first used for engaging in a sexual relationship. He comes in on a contract basis. I’m not sure how that factors into seniority but I do know he’ll be leading my small team in workshops. He’s also significantly older than I am, I am very new in my field of work.

    2. The future will be better*

      Do you have to work with him at all? It might be worth saying something to him (frankly I wouldn’t want anything in writing) along the lines of, “Despite our previous relationship not working out, I hope we can have a great professional relationship going forward.” And then act like it never happened.

      I wouldn’t go to HR… unless, well, you think he would, and he can prove something happened and you want to get ahead. I’m not quite sure what he would get out of it, and there’s no reason to out yourself at work if you don’t want to. Just hope it blows over, and don’t hookup with anyone at work going forward.

      1. scared*

        Yes, he will be leading my team in workshops. I am hoping that I can just pretend it didn’t happen.

        I don’t think he’ll go to HR but I honestly have no idea what he’ll do. He threatened to out me to my family for asking for a piece of clothing back, which I never expected when we started our relationship, so I no longer feel like I have any ability to trust my judgment of someone’s character.

        1. The future will be better*

          oh whoa, that sounds… pretty intense. will he actually have supervisory power over you or anything, or just show up and do some workshops and then be on his way?

          and don’t be so hard on yourself! everyone makes mistakes when judging character at least once, and usually people learn a lot from it. and well, you’re not trying to hold onto a terrible person either, which lots of people do.

    3. Anonymous Ampersand*

      I don’t have any advice but I wanted to send you good luck. I hope he acts better when he comes back – but document everything, at home, ok? Just in case.

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, it sounds horrible :(

  225. Cece*

    So I have an issue with an office a-hole..Lets call him Fergus. I work in the automotive industry in the corporate purchasing area. We are responsible for a lot of cost save initiatives, and Fergus in particular heads that area. He is not a manager but is basically the only person in that role. Fergus typically says borderline inappropriate comments or just “jerky” things, but recently he said a comment that I felt went wayyyyy too far, not only in a professional environment, but just in the “BEING A DECENT HUMAN BEING” department..We were in morning huddle with everyone in my department, including the director and the VP and Fergus got frustrated with a coworker trying to set up the projector and said “Bob, you might as well go kill yourself”… I immediately was appalled and shot back, “THAT IS NOT APPROPRIATE AND NOT SOMETHING TO JOKE ABOUT”, but literally everyone else in the room just kinda brushed it off and didn’t acknowledge it or even say anything—not even the VP!!! Both of my parents work in the mental health field, so I guess I am pretty Intune with mental health awareness and things like that but I couldn’t believe this wasn’t addressed appropriately. The next day, I went into the VP’s office and asked if I could talk to him about the situation, I explained how inappropriate I thought it was of Fergus to say that and how uncomfortable it made me feel, even if it wasn’t directed at me, and that I was disappointed that no one besides myself (who is entry level btw) said anything…I know for a fact that someone else in the room had a family member attempt suicide so I was obviously very concerned. The VP said that it was a “red flag”, but “you can probably tell Fergus is hard to manage and blah blah”, but basically nothing that addressed the problem head on.. I conveniently had a 1 year review with the HR department a few days later who asked specific questions about how I feel in the workplace and I was brutally honest and told her what happened..She was shocked and upset and said it would be taken care of…Fast forward a few months and nothing has happened, actually I now sit closer to Fergus than I did previously and his terrible comments continue and don’t seem toned down at all..What can I do at this point?

    1. Drama Llama*

      To be honest, not much.

      Whatever action HR took against Fergus, they won’t share with you. So you don’t know if “nothing has been done”.

      All companies have a black sheep employee who’s difficult to manage. At my old work there was a notorious bully who would rant and rave over petty things and have provoked several grown men to tears in meetings. He was under performance management on several occasions. Each time he would tone down a little, but eventually go back to his old douchebaggery self. The company kept him because he was excellent with sales and delivering results (probably because he was such an in-your-face jerk who didn’t back off until he got he wanted). So the senior management tolerated his outbursts and occasionally intervened whenever too many people complained at once.

      The reality is that there’s somebody like this in every organisation. In yours, Fergus is one.

      You could push back directly with Fergus when he makes inappropriate comments. But beyond that, you can’t control someone else’s asshole behaviour. If nothing changes it’s then up to you to decide how much of Fergus you can tolerate, and weigh that up against the other pros and cons of working at your department.

    2. Havarti*

      Consider looking for a new job. They know what Fergus is like and he’s still there. VP is full of horse poop. Maybe HR is building a case to fire him. But probably not, I’d say. You’re new and entry level (if I’m reading your comment correctly) so you probably have no weight to do anything more than you already have. And it’s possible you’ve made yourself look like a “special sensitive snowflake” to the VP and HR. Especially if you’re young. You can shut Fergus down politely in the future if he speaks to you directly but in a group setting, you aren’t going to get any support.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I would give the HR person one more shot. Tell her what the current status is, see what she says.

  226. SophieChotek*

    When you get a bonus do you thank your boss or take it as “well-earned”?
    I got a bonus this year — which was surprising because my company did not do well. I was told my boss that the CEO decided to give bonuses anyway (out of his own pay, apparently) to “encourage” us all anyway.

    1. Havarti*

      I thank my boss when we go over my new payrate and bonus because it doesn’t hurt to be nice. I once got a special bonus so I definitely thanked my boss for making that happen.

    2. Reba*

      You can be grateful for the recognition of your work–not quite the same thing as a gift.

  227. Drama Llama*

    I have an ethical workplace dilemma.

    We have an opening for a manager position and I want to promote “Gertrude” into the role. One objection from Boss was Gertrude is actively trying to get pregnant right now. She started trying last year, sadly had a miscarriage, and she mentioned she wants to get pregnant again before she gets much older. She’s in her early 30s.

    I live outside of the US and most women take one year maternity leave, and come back on a part time basis while their children are young. There’s no way this job could be done effectively part time. Plus it will involve weird shift hours and occasional travel.

    I hate that I’m factoring this into Gertrude’s possible promotion. But this job is going to require significant investment in training. The reality is that if Gertrude does take parental leave and/or subsequently resigns after a baby (or even goes to part time hours), it would have been a complete waste of time and company resources to train her into the manager position. Given the high profile nature of the manager position, it would also cause significant disruption to the business.

    What would others do in this situation?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Given the circumstances, Gertrude might not even want the promotion. Have you talked to her about it?

      1. Drama Llama*

        She does. I can kind of see where she’s coming from. I don’t think she wants to hold off on her current plans while waiting for a baby, because she’s been trying to get pregnant for over a year and babies aren’t very considerate of adult schedules.

    2. CatCat*

      Have you even talked to Gertrude? Is she interested in the promotion? Start there.

      If so, I would not factor in “maybe she’ll get pregnant and then off for a year and then only come back part time” into the decision. You’re making a lot of assumptions about what will happen with Gertrude. That’s not really fair. Anyone else you could be considering could also “maybe [string of events where they leave]”.

      1. Drama Llama*

        It’s not baseless assumptions, though. She said herself she is trying to get pregnant.

        It’s true anyone else we hire might end up leaving because of family issues, health problems, or finding better opportunities elsewhere, etc. But hiring decisions are about minimising risk and finding the best fit for the role. If Gertrude is actively trying to get pregnant it’s highly likely she will take parental leave if she has a baby. Considering some of her personal circumstances it’s also highly likely she will want to work part time, or will struggle with working full time after she comes back.

        1. Havarti*

          “highly likely” != “will for sure”
          You assume but you cannot know what the future will bring. And neither can Gertrude.

        2. CatCat*

          If you’re going to take Gertrude out of the running based on your string of assumptions (that she will get pregnant, that she will get pregnant soon rather than years from now, that she will get pregnant and carry to term, that she will take a year of leave, that she will come back part time), can you be transparent with her about that?

        3. Sparkly Lady*

          I don’t know what labor laws are like in your country. But absent labor law issues, I’m going to diverge from the general responses. I think your concerns are valid and legitimate. Gertrude is actively trying to make something happen that would make this promotion a bad idea.

          However, given that no one–including Gertrude–knows what will happen, it does seem unclear. You say you’ve talked to Getrude and that she’s interested in both being promoted and continuing to try and get pregnant, but it’s unclear whether you’ve talked to her explicitly about what she’s willing to do should both promotion and pregnancy happen. If not, I think you need to start there. If there’s a win/win, you want to work with her to find it.

          1. Drama Llama*

            The difficulty is that we shouldn’t be having discussions around her potential parental leave plans because this should not be a factor in her promotion (or non promotion). But realistically, I can’t disregard it given the importance of the role and my questions around her willingness to commit full time long term.

            1. Stellar*

              You have to. Legally and ethically, you simply cannot factor this into your thinking. So ignore it, pretend it isn’t happening, do whatever it takes to remove the possibility from your thinking.

              And any time you find it creeping in, remind yourself that the same thing/similar things could be true of any of the other candidates and you don’t simply do not know.

              Factoring this into your thinking is just not an option. It’s discriminatory, and if you let it influence your decision you are opening your company up to legal action. Don’t be that person.

            2. Thlayli*

              It sounds like you already know that it’s illegal and unethical to take it into account but you are looking for justification to do it anyway.

              I suggest you look elsewhere since I doubt many people on this forum are going to tell you to discriminate against a woman for wanting to have a family.

            3. Observer*

              You can’t have it both ways. Either this is something that is legitimate to take into account, in which case you need to talk to her, or it’s not legitimate to take into account, in which case you CAN – and must – disregard it. The MOST unethical thing you can do is to make assumptions, take this into account and not even give her the chance to clarify. And, at least in the US, not talking to her about it would not help you at all with the legal aspect of things. A case can be made without you ever having said a word about it.

    3. Havarti*

      I’m assuming Boss is a man? How would your company handle things if a woman got the manager position and then got pregnant out of the blue? Why would Gertrude be different? Simply because you know she wants to get pregnant? Isn’t that kinda like discrimination? She might not conceive for a long time. Are you going to deny her a possible career advancement now in case she might one day in the future successfully carry a child to term?

      And people resign all the time. Any time you fill a position, you risk it being a waste of time and company resources even if you’re convinced you’ve picked the perfect person for the job. That’s the nature of business. If Gertrude is willing to do the job with its weird shift hours and travel and she’s the best person for the position, well, there you go. But maybe consider how the job can be set up with a back up because while a man can’t get pregnant (yet), he can certainly get run over by a bus just like everyone else.

      1. Thlayli*

        It’s not “kinda like discrimination”. It’s 100% discrimination in both a legal and moral sense.

    5. Thlayli*

      If she’s been trying for over a year and had one miscarriage and no baby survive to birth, she may well have a medical issue that could make it extremely difficult for her to have a child. Imagine if you don’t give her the promotion because she’s trying and then you find out she can’t have kids anyway. How shitty would you feel then?

      Also, I dunno where you are but in the EU as far as I know it’s totally illegal for you to not promote her on the grounds she might get pregnant.

      Leaving aside your feelings and legalities, it’s totally unethical for you to punish her for trying to have a baby, especially since you wouldn’t be punishing a man in the same way.

      1. Drama Llama*

        This would be my response too if it were someone else’s company.

        Well, a man can’t get pregnant. But if I knew a potential male candidate was actively looking at moving to Poland for a year, that would be a reason for me to seriously reconsider his candidacy for a role.

        1. The future will be better*

          Yeah, but they just aren’t ultimately the same thing – one is a voluntary move, the other is part of being a woman. The fact that they have the same consequence is irrelevant. You are literally punishing wanting a family in a way that you wouldn’t punish a man. You do see how it’s wrong, right?

          Could you talk to Gertrude about how it would work out? She must have some notion of how the job would need to be, and how she would do it if she got pregnant.

        2. Thlayli*

          If you found a man was actively trying to impregnate his wife would you use that as a reason not to promote him?

          Unless the answer is a resounding yes, you are being sexist.

          “I can’t give that job to a woman because she might get pregnant and leave” is probably the single biggest cause/excuse for sex discrimination in employment since forever. Are you not aware of that or do you just not care?

        3. Havarti*

          Hey, were you the one who posted this:
          “Drama Llama
          March 2, 2018 at 4:40 pm
          This is what casual sexism looks like.”

          in the above thread about the boss wanting his female employees to order wine? Because if yes, I’m afraid you’re guilty as well.

          1. Observer*

            This is a lot worse than casual sexism. It’s overt and highly damaging in a direct and immediate way.

        4. Observer*

          Moving to Poland doesn’t have the positive societal impact that continuing the species does. So, maybe that’s just a TOUCH different? (I’m not making claims about the comparative moral worth of people who choose to have children vs choosing to not have children. But, it’s a fact that if we want our species and economies to flourish we need to have a certain number of children in the aggregate.)

          Also, moving to Poland is something that is far more in the control of the person who is looking to move, and far more practical to actually know what’s going to happen. Nothing like that is true for having children.

    6. BRR*

      It sounds like it’s illegal to take it into consideration so if that’s the case I would definitely not take it into consideration.

    7. Umvue*

      This has echoes of the bad old days. Why waste a coveted {job, university seat} on a woman who’s only going to get pregnant? Heck, might as well sack them as soon as they get married.

      Whatever value you see in Gertrude that makes you want to promote her is value that will eventually be systematically missing from half the population if we permit “could get pregnant” to be a factor in hiring decisions. Don’t just do it because it’s the law. Do it because modernity has given you a talent pool twice as deep as it used to be and you don’t want to screw that up.

  228. GradApp*

    I’m applying for grad school, and I’m so excited! I spoke to my adivsor about next steps in the application process and he reminded me to have letters of recommendation sent to him. Having been out of school for a while, I… had forgotten I would need those. I’d love if anyone can provide input on the potential letter-writers I’ve thought of so far–whether they’re appropriate/would strengthen a grad school application (at an admittedly not competitive school).

    1. Either my manager or my department head (both love my work). I’ve been at my job at a nationally renowned institution for a few years, but it’s a completely different industry than my field of study.

    2. My former professor from when I took community college classes a year ago to get a specific certificate (tangentially related to my field of study). I was a good enough student that he offered me a part-time teaching job after I completed my certificate as long as I went through the whole application process, and I initially communicated that I was very interested in the position. However, the opportunity to start taking classes to prepare for grad school came up and I had to stop pursuing the position…and didn’t tell him/left him hanging. Do you think I’ve soured our relationship enough that I shouldn’t ask for a letter of recommendation? Would his recommendation even boost my application much since he can only speak to my success in community college level coursework?

    3. My former undergrad advisor. I was not a good student in undergrad. My school cut me a lot of slack, offered me a lot of support, and let me take time off and take my time to finally graduate long after I should have, and not with a high GPA. (The grad avisor I’m working with is happy to work with me and my low GPA, so that’s not a problem.) My undergrad advisor helped and supported me a lot. Sometimes I felt like I was one of his special projects. I think he was frustrated with me sometimes since he wasn’t really able to understand what was holding me back, but I’m sure he was happy for me to finally finish my degree a few years ago. I could ask if he’ll agree to write a letter, but should I? Given my track record, is there anything he can write to recommend me to this program? I could also ask professors from undergrad, but I didn’t make much of a connection with any (and performed poorly in many of those classes).

    1. The future will be better*

      It sounds like you’re already talking to a potential advisor for a program you admit isn’t competitive… is it possible that this doesn’t even matter that much? I think the priority it asking the potential advisor about this.

      Is this for a more academic graduate program, or professional? I think it would vary quite a bit if you’re going to get an MBA versus a degree in theater history, for instance. In general, graduate schools want academic references, because that’s what they really know. Anyway, here’s my thoughts (but I would speak to the advisor first):

      I think a reference from your current work is a good idea, and a good non-academic reference.

      For two, did you ignore his emails, or was it more of a mutual fade out? I would try and establish how he feels before asking for him as a reference, if you think he might be unhappy with you.

      3 sounds like someone you should use. Sounds like they were supportive of you and will write something good, and you have had a significant relationship with them.

      Good luck!

    2. Reba*

      Academic over industry, even though it’s been a long time, I think. Maybe this depends on the degree program though, since I could see the work references being relevant to a professional degree, even if it is a different field.

  229. Anon for this*

    I found out yesterday that my colleague, hired less than a year after I was for the exact same internal job, makes 10% more than I do. He’s a few years older than I am, but we have very similar career backgrounds at this company.

    I’ve long suspected the higher ups see me as a bargain for some reason, and that they might be sexist (I’m female). I know there may be valid reasons for the salary discrepancy, but I’m having a hard time believing that right now. He did mention he didn’t negotiate, and I did. I tried hard and couldn’t get an inch.

    I’m remaining calm (externally, anyway) and trying to think of ways to ask for a raise not based on my colleague’s salary. I’m getting my master’s in May in a related field, but other than that I’m not sure what to use to make my case. I don’t really work in a department where I can quantify my contributions. Any advice?

    1. Havarti*

      Definitely use the degree as ammo. Also what’s the salary range like for your job in your area? Where are you on it? How long have you been there and do you know how long it took for others to get a raise?

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        I’ve been here in some capacity, mostly full-time, for 12 years (this week, actually). He was hired around the same time, give or take a year. We both moved around a lot internally since then, with one external jaunt. He was actually laid off a few years back but came back. I moved to another state in 2010 but came back and started working here again in 2011 (freelance) and 2012 (full-time again). We both have bachelor’s degrees and very similar backgrounds, just in slightly different departments. There are no formal reviews, which is annoying, but the company gives everyone small raises every year or two, depending on how it’s doing financially.

          1. Anonymous Ampersand*

            If you email Alison with the link she’ll change it for you. I’ve been there!

    2. Reba*

      I don’t know, depending on your company culture and relationship with manager I *would* think about mentioning colleague’s salary. Ask them why you are not paid as much as he is when you do the same job (presuming you do it equally well). Equity matters.

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        I figured I’d be penalized for mentioning it. Not as in retaliation, but just frowned upon and that they’d focus on me knowing his salary in the first place instead of focusing on the issue at hand.

        1. Reba*

          That is definitely possible! You know your workplace best.

          But honestly what they are doing may be illegal discrimination, and *surely* they would want the chance to correct that?

  230. The future will be better*

    It sounds like you’re already talking to a potential advisor for a program you admit isn’t competitive… is it possible that this doesn’t even matter that much? I think the priority it asking the potential advisor about this.

    Is this for a more academic graduate program, or professional? I think it would vary quite a bit if you’re going to get an MBA versus a degree in theater history, for instance. In general, graduate schools want academic references, because that’s what they really know. Anyway, here’s my thoughts (but I would speak to the advisor first):

    I think a reference from your current work is a good idea, and a good non-academic reference.

    For two, did you ignore his emails, or was it more of a mutual fade out? I would try and establish how he feels before asking for him as a reference, if you think he might be unhappy with you.

    3 sounds like someone you should use. Sounds like they were supportive of you and will write something good, and you have had a significant relationship with them.

    Good luck!

  231. Nacho*

    How do you figure out the market rate for your job if you live in an area with an incredibly high cost of living that buoys wages up by a fair amount (though not enough to actually help with the high cost of living)?

    I’ve got a not quite entry level job and anywhere else in the country, I’d be significantly overpaid for it. Here though, it’s not uncommon to make $15/hour just working at Starbucks, so I’m trying to figure out what I should be making compared to other people in my area, not people living half way across the country.

    1. CAA*

      One place to start is the BLS wage database. It gives statistics by occupation and region.

      You can also look for job postings in your area and see if you can find any which include salary ranges.

    2. The future will be better*

      CAA has good advice, so here’s my other stabs at it:

      Have you tried asking around your friend group? I feel like most people I know have had an entry-level job at some point, and might have an idea of what it means for your area.

      Assuming you’re in San Francisco, or some other major city, you might have some luck googling as well!

  232. Anonymouse*

    I’ve been offered an opportunity at work for a pilot mentoring program, which is great! Except I have no idea what my future goals are in my work.

    I really enjoy my job and what I do but there is some nebulous idea in my head that it would be nice to “advance.”
    In the email I got it asked me to review and consider a list of questions which includes such things as what are your goals in your career and what specific things could a mentor help you with.
    I feel like I have no idea! My current position doesn’t have a clear path to follow. Some people in my role have gone on to different roles in the same department but I’m not sure I am interested in those roles.
    I feel like I would be wasting these peoples’ time because I just don’t know what the possibilities are.

    Now the mentorship doesn’t have to be about advancing necessarily and I do know there are places I would like to improve my skill set to apply it to my current position and responsibilities. Would it look bad if my focus is currently on improving myself and my team at my current level and not “become team lead in two years” or something?

    1. Havarti*

      I think you should find out what the possibilities are first if the path isn’t clear. Are the different roles others have moved to the only roles you can consider for advancement?

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      Can you say that one of the things a mentor could help you with is narrowing your career development path and identifying opportunities for you to pursue? Doesn’t have to be a new position, but maybe targeted training, networking groups that could help you find out about your options, advice on how to talk with your manager or your peers, etc.

  233. Bea W*

    A team member who is not my manager and also not my manager’s manager ambushed me in a meeting between her, myself, and my manager. At the end of the meeting she tells me not to question or contradict anything she says in front of other people. It was important for her image. That was bad enough, but then my manager jumps in and explains it’s for political (office politics?) reasons. I’m pretty sure whatever screwy look on my face I had before got matched up another notch. That was probably the absolute worst reason to present me with. I suck at this type of self serving office politics and I find them unpalatable.

    This explains why everyone just yesses this person to death even when she’s absolutely saying incorrect things, being unreasonable, or making me inwardly question if she has serious memory issues. It probably explains how she’s allowed to constantly step all over me and my doing my job.

    She also said it’s because she feels responsible for the end product, but I know when there’s an issue (and there will be because she won’t let me do my job) I’ll probably be the first person she tosses under the bus. If everything goes well, she’ll take all the credit. As it is she makes sure I have virtually no visibility. It’s kind of crucial in my role to be highly visible to certain people and functions and be able to cultivate good relationships. This is a huge problem!

    I don’t know if this kind of thing is ever acceptable in the workplace, but it’s totally unacceptable to me. I just can’t with the self-serving politics.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Eh, tell your manager that it’s important for your image that people do not argue with you. See how that goes.
      NOOOO do not do this.

      I’d be job hunting, if it were me.

      1. Bea W*

        I started job hunting before this. This is just the cherry on the crazy sundae.

        I’m so disappointed in my boss. There were various criticisms and accusations that weren’t true, and my boss had been on all of the emails. Not a peep. :(

        This woman is her own worst enemy, and she’ll drag down my reputation if I don’t speak up when she goes over my head and gives the department I have to work most closely with undeserved verbal beat downs and unreasonable orders to do what she wants exactly how she wants it. I feel so bad for them!

  234. atexit8*

    Interview re-imbursement on 1099.

    My sister drove to a in-person interview with a major corporation.
    Going in the out-sourced HR told her that the mileage and tolls would be re-imbursed which is rare these days.

    My sister gets back from the interview and was told that she would need to give the potential employer her Social Security Number so that they can give her a 1099 for the re-imbursement.

    I shocked by this, but apparently this practice isn’t that unusual now, but I didn’t encounter this 25 years ago when I graduated college.

    I have since read that my sister doesn’t have to report this “income”, but issuing a 1099 for this is assinine. It isn’t income. She spent her money to interview with them.

    What is the point of this? To get her SSN to secretly run a background check on her?

    1. Little Twelvetoes*

      No, it’s probably because they are lazy and don’t want to have to sort out what does need to be reported and what doesn’t. So they just issue 1099s to everybody and wipe their hands of the mess and leave it to the payees to deal with it.

    2. Effie, who is pondering*

      My company used to ask for that for reimbursement so they could set up the candidate as a vendor. It was ridiculous and involved back and forth between then admin/recruiter and accounts payable, explaining that it was a one-time payment and we were not setting up a vendor relationship. Maybe your sister could ask the HR to step in? Good to her, it’s really frustrating.

      2. fposte*

        I’m super-curious now to know if my university does this, since we have to set people up as vendors for just about everything else (like, if we give them an award), so I wouldn’t be surprised. That’s really annoying for an applicant, though.

    3. MissCPA*

      did they specifically say 1099 or could it possibly be a W-2? The reason I ask is I have some payroll clients who get mileage reimbursement and it goes on the payroll check to get the funds to them, but it is not taxed. Normally, you don’t need to issue a 1099-MISC to someone unless you paid them over $600 so I’m not sure why they would be issuing her one for this (as I assume it is under $600). I’d try and push back if she can on the 1099

      1. atexit8*

        No, not a W-2.
        She is a job applicant.

        She even said that the outsourced HR person found this to be a bit unusual.

        She as indicated she is not pushing back but will not given them her SSN.

        I suggested that she leave a review of this on Glassdoor. Other applicants should be warned.

    4. o.b.*

      Unless the mileage and tolls total $600+, they don’t need to issue a 1099. Posting irs dot gov link below. I suspect Little Twelvetoes is spot on.

  235. peony*

    How do you stop being resentful of your friend(s) who don’t have to work? I have a friend whose spouse makes more than enough money for the both of them and gets to spend all day working (or NOT working) on whatever creative projects she chooses. Meanwhile, I have to bust my ass at Toxic Job all week and push all of my creative stuff to nights and weekends, and even then I’m often too drained from the workweek to accomplish anything.

    Can I just go back in time and be independently wealthy? LOL. But seriously.

    1. The future will be better*

      Life isn’t fair. It sucks, but it’s how it is. It’s a bad habit to compare yourself to others, but we all do it. Ultimately, everyone in the world has someone that’s got it better than they do.

      I’d say if you’re working on improving your own situation, you’ll start to feel better about it. Just the feeling that things are on their way to better really helps! Maybe start job hunting, and so on?

    2. Manders*

      I’m right there with you and trying to get better about not letting that resentment fester.

      I found that it helped a little bit when I stopped hanging out with a few people who were pretty blatantly just dating others for their money or manipulating people for cash. I still have a few friends who had the good fortune to be born into or marry into wealth, but they’re lovely people, so I feel less resentful about them getting to have nice things. Finding a better job also helped–I genuinely do like coming into the office and feeling productive. And I started a small, achievable creative project so I’d always feel like I was producing something.

    3. Havarti*

      Yeah, maybe try looking for a less toxic job if possible. A better job might leave you with more energy to tackle personal projects. Though I don’t know how to stop feeling resentful. You have to make some sort of peace with yourself on that and let it go. If your friend is the sort that kinda rubs it in that she doesn’t need to work, maybe you don’t see her as often.I can’t even really do creative stuff at night because I need to sleep. The days of barely sleeping and still functioning are long gone. :(

    4. nep*

      When thoughts like this creep in, it helps me to think about all the things I’ve got that others pray or yearn for. It’s all relative. There will always, always be someone better off and worse off.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Speaking as a widow, this is a very foolish move on your friend’s part. If anything happens to her spouse, heaven forbid, her road is going to get much, much harder. If I knew your friend, I would tell her for you.

      For your own part in all this, put more effort into building a life that you value. Let her remind subtly remind you that you are not where you want to be and you CAN push a little more and more often to get yourself where you want to be.

      1. atexit8*

        Not just the husband dying, but what if he becomes disabled?
        If they don’t have enough saved up and the disability is not able to cover the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed.

        Or what if they get divorced. 50% chance of that according to the statistics, and she has to go out in this unfriendly job market.

        That friend should try to “stay relevant”.

    6. Thlayli*

      If you had a job you enjoyed you wouldn’t feel like that. It’s hard not to feel jealous of non-workers when you hate your job. The solution here is to find a job you like.

  236. Extra Vitamins*

    More of a complaint than question. Next week, the majority of the coworkers in adjacent offices will be away at a conference. I though “Yay! I can get things done in the quiet and (especially) Fergus will be gone!” I just found out everyone EXCEPT Fergus (who needs constant ego feeding and validation-chats about nothing) will be gone. So just Fergus and me. I already feel annoyed, and I’m considering taking vacation. Or sick leave.

    4. Anono-me*

      Headphone. Big old-school headphones.
      (Say the little ear buds have started bothering your ears if asked.)

      You can listen to music or not as you prefer; but ignore Fergus until he is practically shouting in your face. Then turn off the headphones, slowly remove them and say ” I’m sorry Fergus, What did you say? “

    2. Thlayli*

      In my experience colleague is usually used for higher paid jobs, and co-worker for lower-paid ones. But it’s not a hard and fast rule.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Colleague is a non-boss, who is not an immediate coworker?
      But I have used the word colleague to disguise someone that I worked with daily. The ambiguity there has worked for me.

    4. Reba*

      For me, colleague can include my peer or person in my field at a different org, e.g., “I emailed my colleague at the Bodleian Library and she says that books bound in llama skin are exceedingly rare.”

    5. Nacho*

      I call my coworkers coworkers, but whenever I’m referring to them while talking to a customer, they’re my colleagues.

  238. RemoteDreams*

    I was initially planning on doing school fulltime since I haven’t found another job since my last contract ended, and we’re going to move when my partner finishes school in a few months anyway… but I’ve started applying to remote jobs and gotten quite a few interviews! Feels good to get interviews after no luck in this tiny town :)

      1. RemoteDreams*

        Thanks! Since I was already planning to do school full time, my cover letters had a bit more flair than I’m usually comfortable with (They say they want to see who I am? Alright then!), and it seems to be helping. Alison’s example cover letters really inspired me to be less (frankly) boring and rehashing my resume.

  239. The Lion's Roar*

    I feel like I’m working in a circle where I have not been before. I manage a company that makes teapots. I recently transferred from another location to fix this location with its reputation with turnover of teapot orders and staff. Regulations state I must have so many employees per teapot orders. Lately I’ve had an increase in teapot orders but lack the employees to complete orders and have called other locations to borrow staff. I am also making teapots alongside my staff. In order to make sure my staff get a lunch break and we can make teapots, I have not had a break and I’m lucky if I get to eat lunch. This is a stressful situation as my boss will not let me put a hold on orders until I have staff. Every day I pray we’ll make it through. Any chance I get, I call applicants, set up interviews and hire. I lost 3 staff in one day a couple weeks ago. One went on maternity leave early, one was convicted of a crime requiring her employment to end, and another resigned. This is a field with a high turnover and I’ve managed other locations but this is insane. My boss says I’m working hard but not smart. It’s so frustrating that this I am unable to control. I also have lost another due to relocation, another is resigning due to an ill family member and another is having a baby any day. Then today, one of the new employees went on break and never came back. My assistant and I feel like we’ve got some bad karma going. I would think this is all my fault but I had a great retention rate at my last location.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I hate what your boss said. Ask him how he feels you could be smarter about your work. Ask in a sincere manner.
      You need time to hire people, period.
      My guess is that the chaos going on is helping people out the door.

      Crews mimic us. If we are distraught then they will become distraught. Start by deciding that your people are doing the best they can given the givens. Try to calm yourself a bit. Look at this way, it’s a train wreck regardless of whether you are upset or not.

      I could be mistaken, but I think you need to speak more directly to your boss. Tell him that “Given the people we have we can only meet goals #1-3. We will not be able to complete goals #4-10 in a timely manner. We do not have enough people to do this.”

      If you are doing measurable work, it’s very helpful to know your stats. “Three people can produce 10 units a day. If we want 100 units a day we will need to hire 27 more people and get them trained.” (30 people would equal 100 units per day)
      I have turn the tables on conversations like this by saying, “Boss, the machine produces 4k units per day. If you want 15k produced daily, I will need the use of 3 more machines all day and a 4th machine part of the day. That would bring me up to 15k coming off the machine. Now I need assemblers or else there is nothing to run through these machines. If a good producer can do 500 units per day, I am going to need 30 assemblers each day to have 15k units for the machine each day.”

      That ended that conversation, cold, hard stop. I no longer got blamed for “lack of productivity”. If possible use numbers to convey your message.

    2. Betsy*

      It sounds like there are major problems with staff turnover, but it also sounds like pre-existing problems from before you came, if you had great retention previously.

      I don’t think you should blame yourself, but it might be good to try to find a way to get some *honest* feedback on why everyone is leaving. If everyone’s leaving at once, most of them will give a plausible, polite reason because they probably are concerned about not receiving a good reference in future. When I resign from my position, I will probably stick to plausible, polite reasons, too, just because it’s easier to save face.

    3. Yetanotherjennifer*

      It takes time to turn a business around. It’s not like you can come on board and suddenly all the turnover problems magically disappear and you have a line of applicants out the door. (That’s meant for your boss, I’m sure you are well aware of your lack of magical powers.) It might be helpful to have some statistics about what and how long it does take to fix something like this. And can you give your boss some reasonable production numbers based on the staff you have? But also, maybe you do need to realize how much more like a marathon this is. It’s natural that you haven’t been able to fix this already. What you really need to do is remove the pressure of those pending orders. Can you send some to the other locations? Can you let the ball drop and ship orders late? Can you bring in a bunch of temps to handle low-skilled stuff so your experienced staff can focus on the skilled stuff? Also, as admirable as it is for you to be working alongside your staff and making sure they get breaks while you skip yours, your time is best spent on the management tasks that will get you the staff you need and be able to retain them. No one else can do that job.

  240. Getting Dizzy*

    My whole life I have what I thought was an advantage of stamina and adaptability. That is. I am willing to do just about any job offered. Cooking? Yes. House cleaning and renovation? Sure. Wheat weaving? It has a paycheck.
    Bartending for tips? it’s still money and I have a phone bill.
    Thing is, I’m willing to try anything because I need *something*. I’ve always needed the money & figured it would show versatility.
    Except that in the last few years that has proven to clearly not be the case. Instead it looks random and I’m getting the feeling interviewers are silently asking “Why so many different jobs? Why do none of these jobs last? Why are there long spaces of unemployment?” The answers are pathetically simple;
    1) I need money to live. (duh)
    2) They are temporary or seasonal by nature.
    3) No one will hire me for long term stable jobs even though I am a good worker, because no one hiring for stable jobs likes that no one will hire me for a stable job so no one hires me for stable jobs.
    How do I break this cycle?!

    1. RemoteDreams*

      Alright, so I’ve got a work history like this just due to my field, and I’m currently hoping to leave it, and I can say what has worked for me. I still haven’t found the right position (that’s another matter all together, I have had offers that weren’t suitable because I decided I’d rather not move), but I’ve not had any concerns about my work history. So, obviously your 1-3 are not what to say.

      1. Head this off at the pass. If the jobs ended because the season/work/whatever ended, put that on your resume. I don’t do this because it hasn’t caused me trouble, but your history is particularly sporadic, it would make it clear you weren’t ditching these jobs before they were over.

      2. In your cover letter, say something like: “While I have enjoyed the short-term jobs I have taken and (the flexibility that gave me/variety of experiences/whatever), I’ve realized that I would like a permanent position in which to grow professionally.” If you can go on about why *that* specific position is the best, even better! So -explain why you want longer gigs, as if you did the other stuff on purpose (don’t make excuses like “I couldn’t do better”, spin is positively), and explain why *this* particular position is the one you want to commit to. Yeah, you’re probably applying to all sorts of stuff, but they don’t know that! It’s really normal to want a permanent job – everyone will believe you when you say you want it.

      3. Have you had kids, family, anything that explains this? Using that is another great reason for why you’re changing things up. I wouldn’t want to do this in a sappy way, simply a “Due to a health issue with a family member/kids/whatever, I was unable to commit to a permanent position, and am excited to have the chance to do so now.

      4. If you’ve got anything to fill long spaces of unemployment, do it. I took some time off to be a backpacking hippie around the world, and that’s on my resume. It’s only got a few bullet points (hey, you get skills traveling!) and says “Yeah I was doing things). In fact, I often spin that as, “I have explored myself/the world/whatever and now I know what I want, and it’s this job!” You’d be surprised – literally everyone, even stuffy financial types, think it’s cool!

      1. Hellanon*

        Totally agreed – swing straight at the issue, and think about ways to emphasize a) keeping a roof over your head & the lights on and b) you enjoyed the chance to learn new skills/new things, and feel your willingness to pitch in and work hard wherever you are needed speaks for itself. However, now you are anxious to learn bigger-picture skills/management skills/whatever. My resume is a little scattered, and I explain it by pointing out what common thread all my jobs share, and by the fact that I like being able to leverage new challenges.

  241. KatieKate*

    I applied for a job two years ago and got pretty far in the process, but ultimately got turned away because of experience. Now two years later the position is open again. I’ve been ‘friendly’ with the manager (it’s a small world so I run into them at work functions a lot) in that time and I was wondering if a “hey I saw the position was open again, I’d love to throw my hat in the ring again” email be appropriate? Should I attach my resume? Or should I just apply the normal way?

    1. RemoteDreams*

      I’d probably send an email with my resume attached (“Hey, how’s it going, I’m still interested in that job, here’s my resume for reference”), I feel like as long as it’s in a casual/nonpressuring way it’s fine. Especially since you know him outside of that interview process.

      If you don’t get a response or get a favorable response, can’t hurt to apply online as well (you probably will have to, since they’re going to interview other people no matter what most likely). If he says he still thinks you don’t fit, well, at least he saved you the time?

  242. KatieKate*

    Another question: I am a woman who doesn’t shave her underarms in the winter, but now that we’re heading into spring I really don’t want to shave them. In the office I’m in longer shirts or cardigans, (mostly because the office is freezing) but I’m often out in the community in the organization t shirt, and if you’re looking closely I’m not totally covered up. Appropriate or inappropriate? For further clarification, I am doing things like outdoor volunteering projects where it would be uncomfortable to wear more layers.

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      you’re fine. Just make sure you shower regularly, use deodorant, etc. Shaving is optional, whatever anyone thinks.

    2. RemoteDreams*

      I think it depends on the job, honestly. Probably wouldn’t fly at an investment firm, definitely would fly with your local LGBTQ charity. It shouldn’t matter, but in some situations it would anyway.

      As a side note, if you’re self-conscious about it, using a beard trimmer like thing would make it less conspicuous but possibly be comfier than shaving? Of course no pressure on my end to change, I think it should be acceptable to not shave at all :)

  243. sagegreen*

    So, does anyone have any advice on how to deal with supervisors who try to guilt me into working hours I don’t want to work? We have an employee going out of town for five days, and my supervisor asked me to change my hours for those days, but I really don’t want to. It’s a night shift, and I’m fighting depression and honestly, I think it would make me feel worse even though it’s just for a few days. I am under no obligation to, as we have set schedules, and when I said no thanks, he said he would remember this next time I wanted a favor. He asked me what I was doing that I couldn’t do it, and kept badgering me about it. I already clock in early several days a week as a favor, which is ok, but just do not want to do this. The thing is, we don’t have enough people and our company doesn’t want to spend the money on a new hiring class. If we do the work, they won’t have to. But that’s not my responsibility right? Any advice on how to deal with this in a professional manner? I work in a call center so almost nobody acts professionally, but with reading this column, I am learning what that means in a job and want to respond that way the next time this happens.

    1. The future will be better*

      > he said he would remember this next time I wanted a favor.
      >I already clock in early several days a week as a favor

      As Alison says, your boss sucks and he isn’t going to change. It’s your job, he’s your boss, this is NOT about favors. If you’re not looking to get another job, I would just make up an excuse for why you can’t – hell, make it a white lie – watching family member’s kids, other obligations, etc. He lost the right for honest when he started being an ass.

      1. The future will be better*

        Actually, I do like the other commeters response of not giving details – I just imagined that not working with such a pushy boss, but just keep it up! Think my irritation at your boss being a jerk got the best of me :)

    2. Casuan*

      Sagegreen, it’s commendable that you want to be professional in an environment that isn’t. :-)

      Use as few words as possible. Become a broken record.
      “I’m sorry. I’m not available for those hours.”
      When pressed: “My availability hasn’t changed. If it does then I’m glad to let you know.”
      Don’t play ultimatums.

      Also!!
      Remember that these very people probably wouldn’t hesitate to use you for their advantage. That doesn’t mean you should do the same, rather it might help to keep things in perspective.

      2. sagegreen*

        “My availability hasn’t changed. If it does then I’m glad to let you know.”

        I love that, thanks! And even though he will keep standing there waiting for me to give in, I have to stay strong. The problem is, guilting me has worked in the past and he knows it. :/

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      We don’t have enough people and our company doesn’t want to spend the money on a new hiring class.

      So they know the problem, they know the answer, but they have opted to try to guilt the remaining people into the night shift.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      This is very typical in many retail jobs or other service jobs. The pressure is extreme. The times I have pushed back have not gone well for me. In the long run, I think you should start looking for other work. It sounds like you have a boss who manages by retaliation.

      Maybe you can get a doctor’s note for health reasons. But that is a long shot and probably won’t help you reason with someone is not reasonable.

    5. Yetanotherjennifer*

      Hold firm! With bosses like that it tends to be all take and no give. When someone does need some time off, does he give it willingly or come up with excuses. If you take on the extra shifts he will not feel in your debt, he’ll just know to ask you the next time.

    6. sagegreen*

      Well, a new development occurred today. They had nobody to cover the shifts so they started offering incentive in the form of gift cards for Amazon. Hell, if they had done that in the first place, it wouldn’t have been an issue. I signed up for two shifts, and was firm that was all I was going to do, and they didn’t push.

      Thanks for the advice y’all. Oh, and is there anyway to get notifications for responses to my post?

  244. Delta Delta*

    I bumped in to a former colleague from a super toxic ex-job. He told me that Big Boss has now instituted a policy that the weekly staff meeting is every Thursday at 4. And has “no cap” on how long it goes. They’re often there until 6 or later because people drone on and on and nobody takes charge. I sympathized and then later giggled with glee that I’m not involved in any of that anymore.

  245. Paper Towels*

    Knowing when you are burnt out and taking corrective action vs. Leaving during a colossal project when you don’t want to hurt your reputation

    Last year, I worked on a major project for my company that required 50 to 65-hour weeks for 7-8 months. My boss said no time off until the project was complete and he held us to it – national holidays were the only respite. I was hospitalized on a Friday night due to serious illness and come Monday I was working from home (I took one half day until I was fully recovered b/c no days off). Luckily, the project went phenomenally well! I did finally get a long break/vacation over which I realized have to be better about protecting my time and my self to avoid going crazy.

    This year, they want to do a bigger version of the major project. There is no extra help for the project. There is no reassigning other work during the project. When I ask my boss for support, he passes on advice he got from on high – “Suck it up.”. I’d like to be that person and rises above but I also want to feel in control of my life, to reduce my stress, and to pursue hobbies. I don’t want to work as much, not even for a raise.

    My goal was to stay on through the second Big Project but am 75% of the way to having a major meltdown at work – I didn’t hit this stage 6 months in last time around (there are still 6 months ahead). Should I take a job offer – if it is a good fit – even though the current big project is not done? Do I tell my boss I am looking? I am worried about punitive action – especially his habit of badmouthing people who leave and blaming every error on them in the 3-6 months following their departure – and I’d rather be on good terms with people because the last big project went so well.

    1. The future will be better*

      Don’t tell your boss you are looking, and look for another job. This is your life, it’s completely reasonable to not want to work 50-65 hours a week. I’ve worked hours like that, and it really can make you crazy. You admit you are 75% of the way to a major meltdown – I know from experience, that 100% can sneak up on you and be really difficult.

      > especially his habit of badmouthing people who leave and blaming every error on them in the 3-6 months following their departure

      Frankly, if he’s going to do this no matter what (I think that’s what you mean?), then who cares? The only way to avoid it is to never leave that job, which is totally unreasonable.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      I’d like to be that person …

      I honestly thought this was going toward “… and rage quit the next time they ask something unreasonable.”

      Should I take a job offer – if it is a good fit – even though the current big project is not done?

      Hells yes.

      There’s a psychological rule that you can put up with anything for about three months. If it’s going to run longer than that, then it becomes your life. Dangling a carrot a year out there just is not inspirational enough to keep swimming through merde.

      It sounds like your boss badmouths people when they leave. There is no way you can quit in a manner so considerate that he will be pleased and speak flatteringly of your decision, so drop that as a goal. The company is following the playbook “Make things miserable enough, and your employees with options will leave.” It’s okay for the natural consequences of that to occur. It doesn’t even sound like they celebrate the end of the project by pouring buckets of money over you, which might be a reasonable motivation to stay that long–they celebrate by allowing you to once again take a day off, which most other places is just normal.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You can’t make a mean boss be nice. It isn’t going to happen.

      He is probably well known for bad mouthing people and probably has discredited himself a long time ago. When you interview talk about your accomplishments and talk about how much you have learned on this job.

      I hope this story helps you. I know of a manager, “Martha” here who hired people who worked for “Joe” in another company. Joe was not a good manager. Picture a five year old being in charge of a group of adults. Martha would pick Joe’s old employees as often as she could. She knew what Joe was doing to people so she never called Joe on anyone. Rather, she interviewed the person and based on her interview she would decide whether the person would be a good fit for the job. It became her mission in life to rescue Joe’s victims as often as she could.

    4. Caledonia*

      I agree with everyone else – get out and do not look back.

      I bet you haven’t really recovered from your previous project – working so much for so long puts a toll on you more than you realise. And also you know what is coming down the line as you’ve been through it before.

      Don’t die for a job.

      1. Observer*

        Don’t die for a job.

        Please take that literally. The idea that you were back at work, even from home, on Monday, when you were in the hospital on Friday tells me that your company really, really doesn’t care if you drop dead as long as it doesn’t inconvenience them.

    5. Overeducated*

      Yes. Take a good fit offer and don’t look back. This is an easy one, from the outside!

    6. Thlayli*

      Get out while you still have some semblance of mental health left and don’t even think about feeling guilty.

      This job literally made you ill before and now your boss is telling you to “suck it up” and do it again. Run, run away as fast as you can.

      Also if there is any way you can while remaining employed, refuse to do the new project.

    7. Observer*

      Don’t tell your boss that you are looking. But, if you get a good offer? Of course you should take it! Give the standard notice, whatever it is. AND THAT’S IT.

      You won’t blow your reputation.

  246. Salary Ranges*

    Hi all,

    If an interviewer asks for a salary range, would it be okay if I present a range that spans $10,000 (i.e. $60,000 to $70,000)? Or would this be too great of a gap for the interviewer to take me seriously?

    I also wanted to know if there are any websites that can give me salary ranges based on BOTH job title and industry. I know that the same job title can be paid quite differently depending on if you work for a nonprofit or corporation.

    Thanks

  247. RemoteDreams*

    Does anyone have opinions on the validity of glassdoor reviews? I often get excited about a job then wary when I read reviews, but at the same time, I really feel like my own experience has to be the factor, because so much online is not true or perhaps that person had an incorrect perspective

    1. Nacho*

      Glass door reviews are left by people with strong feelings about their job. Generally, you don’t have strong feelings about your job unless they’re negative. Not many people seriously love their job enough to go around telling people how awesome it is, but plenty of them hate it enough to go around complaining.

      1. Paper Towels*

        > Glass door reviews are left by people with strong feelings about their job.

        This! When a place has some damning reviews, it may also be left by people who are friendly enough with the organization’s HR team to write up a nice or neutral review when asked.

        I would assume people do not have an incorrect perspective. Based on their position, team, or manager, they have the right perspective on what things are like for their department’s or pay grade’s microculture. Do they have a bias in what they are trying to tell you? Totally – but so do most people when telling you anything ever.

        While Glassdoor reviews tend not to detail team for anonymity, I find the position level indicator and time worked to be a useful guide in how seriously I take the review. There are a lot of places out there with excellent reviews from starry-eyed interns while the paid employees’ comments indicate average satisfaction at best.

    2. nep*

      I take them with a grain of salt. I watch for trends (are 10 people in a row saying management exploits employees? are 12 people noting that the work-life balance is especially good?).
      Much of it is going to come down to the person, of course. Example — a colleague yesterday was telling me about a place she’d recently applied; she talked about how progressive and innovative the place is and what a cool place it would be to work. I looked at the Glassdoor reviews later. Many of the things people praised about the company and the atmosphere would be turnoffs for me and I know I wouldn’t fit in.

  248. G*

    I’m in a bit of a pickle. At university we are coming to a time where exams are in two months and a whole load of assignments are due in so there have been some temporary timetable alterations. The thing is when these alterations occur on days I have lectures the university tends to only give short notices because they expect you to be able to stay at the university that day and put it first. Now I had a timetable alteration which meant that I have to stay at university until 2:30 rather than 1 on Wednesday and I put in a request for time off at work until I could get there at 4:30 with an explanation as to why (approximate travel time is 2 hours) however work have denied my request saying that it’s too short notice and they have scheduled me to start at 3:15. What do I do? I did originally try to have Wednesdays off completely in case of something like this but they made me tell them what my typical uni hours are per day and I didn’t want to be dishonest. I think work are getting frustrated with me because they’ve booked me in on a Wednesday twice in February and both times I had to tell them that I would be late because of university work.

    1. Colette*

      Is this the kind of job where you can get someone to cover for you? If so, can you do that until you can get there at 4:30?

      Can you talk to your professor and see if there is another class that fits your schedule for that one day?

    2. Thlayli*

      I’m confused a bit – is it now every Wednesday that you have to stay late, or is it just happening occasionally?

      I’m willing to bet some of your classmates are in a similar position. Can you go as a group to the lecturer(s) that keep changing hours at short notice, or to your head of course or whoever is appropriate and point out that you have to pay fees, you have to work to pay fees, you have to know what hours you are available to be able to work. Tell her she needs to let you know the hours for the next 8 weeks unless she wants you all to lose your jobs and not be able to pay tuition fees.

    3. A Nickname for AAM*

      This sounds like something they used to do at my college. Classes were M/W/F or Tu/Th, and if there were holidays or snow days that fell such that class got cancelled on one day/set of days more than the other, they’d “fix” it by delcaring a day a different day. So you might, say, have a Tuesday that follows the “Monday” class schedule.

      As for your work, I honestly don’t know what to do. I supervise student employees and I would *never* give them a hard time for such a thing. School comes first, and if you’re not OK with that, don’t hire students.

  249. Imposter?*

    There was some discussion recently about how the term “Imposter syndrome” has been over used, and a lot of people who say they have it actually don’t.

    This is my issue: Every time I do something good and get praised, I feel like it’s a fluke. Every time I screw something up, I feel like that’s a true reflection of my capabilities. When my manager talks about my skills based on past things I’ve done, I feel panicky, like – It was just a lucky accident that I did that. What if I can’t do that again??? I just feel like I can’t do anything, even though people at work think I’m competent and organized. I feel totally incompetent and disorganized in my head.

    Is that imposter syndrome?

    1. Agathe_M*

      First, I’m not a psychologist/therapist/counsellor or at all qualified to diagnose, let alone diagnose through comment. But I think your question perfectly illustrates some of the problems with Official Terminology™.

      What I can say, without attempting to diagnose you specifically: many, if not most, people have some level of insecurity. A question that only you can answer is, “is this interfering with my life in ways I’m not okay with”.

      If that answer is yes, then I recommend finding a therapist or counsellor who can help you figure out solutions, whether or not you feel this counts as official, capitalizable, Imposter Syndrome. Problem don’t have to match the book to be worth fixing :)

      Then again, if the answer’s no, and that feeling of disorganization is something you’re okay with, that’s fine too, even if it could be Official and Capitalizable for someone else.

  250. SubbyP*

    So the other day I screwed up and missed half a shift at Dream Job In My Field because I had a total brain failure and assumed that February was the same length as other months. I came in as soon as I realized, and my boss said it was okay (“just don’t let it become a habit”), and I’ve been otherwise punctual and productive beyond his expectations, AND he’s been giving me responsibility faster than he said he would when he was training me–but I’m still paranoid that I’m going to get fired (give it up forrrrrrr….ANXIETY DISORDER!!).

    Bit of backstory: I once got fired from another job for what was a real actual total fuckup, but it was exacerbated by the fact that they didn’t train me and I didn’t fit in with the office culture. This situation is clearly different–I was trained, I fit in well, the screwup was a lot less awful, and my boss OUTRIGHT SAID EVERYTHING WAS FINE–but I still can’t convince myself that I haven’t completely blown this golden opportunity.

    I guess my question is: how can I keep myself from continually panicking over this?

    1. kmb*

      Can you make a plan for how you can avoid this type of mistake again? Sometimes that helps me feel like I’ve Responded Appropriately to a screw up and allows me to calm down.

    2. Observer*

      Well, it sounds like you have a therapist. This is a perfect thing to discuss with them, if that’s the case.

      If you don’t have one, and this kind of thing (overthinking and get panicked over mundane situations) happens to you a lot, and is making your life difficult, then you should try to find a therapist of some sort who can help you develop some good strategies.

  251. Alianora*

    Does anyone know if being an administrative assistant/clerk in a legal setting is significantly different than administrative jobs in other sectors? I’ve been applying to a lot of admin jobs, and I have a couple interviews coming up — one working at the district attorney’s office and the other at a state court. Any advice?

    1. Hmm*

      It is as a clerk or an admin? From what I know (not a lawyer so only so helpful, mother is a lawyer, I’ve spent a lot of time in her office, briefly filled in as an admin), a law clerk is essentially a law student or recent grad, so that’s a much different position than an admin.

      It seems like a lot of the stuff would depend on the particular position. Some could be more admin based, and others might want you to do more clerk like things. My guess is that more paperwork-ish things could end up in your domain, or the occasional researching.

      Understanding all the documents and law stuff is a lot about just working smart though… if you can read and are attentive to detail, you’d be able to pick a lot of the admin stuff up. I would focus on your ability to research/learn new things, if that is in the job description.

      Good luck! You know, if I get a chance I’ll ask my mom about it.

      1. Alianora*

        I replied below, but one job is as a Legal Process Clerk and the other is as an administrative assistant. The clerk job only requires a BA or two years of clerical experience, so it doesn’t seem like they’re looking specifically for law students.

        Thanks for your input — I really appreciate it.

        1. Alianora*

          Oh, I should also note that I didn’t specifically apply for either of these positions — I applied to take exams that would qualify me to be interviewed for them. After I passed the exams specific departments have been contacting me for interviews.

        2. Hmm*

          Ah, that explains it, the title isn’t law clerk! That is a specific title for students/recent grads who are well, law clerks. That is not colloquial, it’s a job title – so make sure not to shorten Legal Process Clerk to law clerk (which you didn’t, but just letting you know :) )

          Since you took (what I assume is) some sort of civil service test for these, you should have pretty specific job descriptions already, right? I found some when I googled it online. I would focus on that, since the specifics of where you end up at the DA/state court might be pretty hard to know until talking to them further. Goodluck!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      As you would need medical terminology for a doc’s office, you will need legal terminology for a lawyer’s office.

      If you can find the websites for these places read as much as you can find on the sites.

      Once you are in the job the first thing you will learn is that word choice is really important. And following instructions, there are reasons why you cannot tell people certain things. Even if it does not make sense in the moment, follow the instruction anyway. It will make sense later on.

      You can probably blend into the crowd on a random day at the state court. Go an observe a court day. Dress rather bland, so you aren’t memorable and see what you can learn. You won’t be able to do this with the DA’s office.

      For the DA job, Google your DA and see what she is up to in the news. Find out what she is working on, what she supports etc. You can do the same for the judges you might be working for. While you are looking at the DA online, look at the cases. These will be the people you will come in contact with. No, not all of them and not a lot of contact, but be sure to understand the nature of the work.

      Law is one heck of a lot of reading. Whatever you can get to read to prep for these interviews will help in some manner.

      I also agree that admin and clerk are not the same. Go back to the job ad and get the right term, they will notice if you use the wrong term because it’s a big difference.

      1. Alianora*

        One has the title Legal Process Clerk and the other has the title Administrative Assistant. Sorry that was unclear.

        Thanks for such a thorough response!

  252. Bunny*

    Hi, everyone:

    I have 2 (two!) job interviews next week. I am looking to transition from news to PR. I attempted this once before, and hated the potion. The work was great. The people were insane and it was like working for Harvey Weinstein. I am being far more careful now, chosing where I would like to go.

    The first position is with the state; the second is with a group with a great reputation I would very much like to work for. I have very big names going to bat for me in the second.

    There are probably more experienced PR people who would like these jobs. I am more news heavy, with a touch of PR experience, and I believe I could get results.

    I have to close these. Any tips?

    I am terrified and quite nervous.

    Thank you

  253. RemoteDreams*

    Does anyone have advice for salary talk when switching fields? My experience is applicable, but I still feel a bit awkward suggesting a number because it pays a LOT more than what I do – but I don’t want to lose on ten grand because I didn’t push hard enough.

    The company has a lot of their salaries for this position on glassdoor, can I trust those numbers? It’s hard to just look up the position itself, because it has a very bland title that encompasses a lot of different jobs that have varying salaries.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Hopefully you’ll come back and look. I would look at not just the company but also metrics for your area via something like Salary.com with a few different titles. That way you can negotiate with some confidence in case what’s on Glassdoor is for a different location or is from a person from several years ago or whatever.

      1. RemoteDreams*

        I did come back and look, so thank you! :)

        It’s actually a remote position, so I’m not sure if that would affect the salary? I suppose they would still pay based on their location city, right?

        The ones on glassdoor vary in how recent they are, and I suppose another thing I worry about is that it’s the sort of position that could take people in at various career levels – some new graduates and others who’ve already got more experience or degrees. So in short, if it turns out they value my experience enough to pay me more, I’d hate to lowball myself. But if it turns out they don’t, I’d prefer not to look like an idiot.

      2. RemoteDreams*

        Huh, I think my comment got eaten!

        It’s a remote position, so would the salaries be based on where the company is located?

        The bigger thing is that it’s the sort of job that they could hire people with different levels of experience, and I’m not sure if what’s posted is entry level or not. I do have work experience… and if it turns out they would pay me more for that, since it’s somewhat related, I’d hate to lowball myself. But if it turns out they don’t think it’s related enough, I don’t want to come across as out of touch!

      3. RemoteDreams*

        Final update: As of yesterday, I’ve managed not to whiff it! So at least there’s that :) Should hear in a few days if I’m going to the next round, fingers crossed!

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