open thread – March 23-24, 2018

by Alison Green on March 23, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Ann Furthermore*

    Job searching again. Ugh. My company is struggling financially, so I’m putting out feelers. I got a job notification email today about a position through Virtual Vocations. When I went to look at it, it wanted me to register, and then pay a fee. Has anyone used this? Is it a scam, or is it legit? Having to pay to see job listings seems fishy to me.

    2. JobinPolitics*

      Ann Furthermore, I’m so sorry to learn your workplace is going through financial hardship.

      Although I’m not familiar with Virtual Vocations, I believe asking a job seeker to pay is troubling and would advise you search on job boards and professional association job banks.

      Good luck with the search!

    3. Artemesia*

      I don’t know this organization but it reminds of those companies in college towns that ‘help you find an apartment’; when you walk in and say what you need, it is ‘no problem, we have lots of places like that.’ And you pay a fee and then are ushered into a room with rental notices on a bulletin board but they are all inappropriate or unavailable when you call. But they have your money. I’d not do this unless you know someone who succeeded with it.

      Have you tried ziprecruiter? Hope something comes along soon.

    4. Nanc*

      My only interaction with Virtual Vocations is when they copied and posted a job we had paid to post on LinkedIn. Nope nope nope nopeity nope. We were already paying for a posting elsewhere and we certainly weren’t charging folks to apply.

      I found out because I got an email from an applicant who had seen it on LinkedIn and then saw it on Virtual Vocations and wondered why. It was the Wednesday before Thanksgiving and as they weren’t answering phones or responding to emails I called a lawyer friend who happens to live in the same town and she went down to the physical office and had a short talk with the person who was working–in a nice way, just saying take it down, we didn’t give them permission to post it.

      Take my story with a grain of salt–but they’re not a company I would ever use based on that one experience.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        It never really makes sense to me why the company hiring would want to restrict the posts to paid sites. I can understand from the job-seekers point of view why it would be valuable to get pre-screened WFH jobs, but why would the company be willing to limit their pool of applicants like this?

        1. Nanc*

          I have no way of knowing because I won’t pay to have a membership on their site but I suspect they simply go out and harvest jobs they find on LinkedIn, Craigslist, or wherever. There’s another company in Australia–can’t recall the name, that does this with all our job postings. It makes me so mad–I get emails and calls complaining about the application process and all I can do is direct them to our website or the LinkedIn posting, where it’s free and super-easy to apply!

          I feel bad for job seekers like Ann Furthermore who have to try to navigate whether it’s worth it to sign up for these paid sites. My gut reaction says no–you shouldn’t have to pay to find a job!

          1. Detective Amy Santiago*

            Virtual Vocations and FlexJobs are aggregators but they vet the jobs they list to make sure they are legit WFH opportunities. That’s why you have to pay for them. I think they both offer free trials. I used both when I was job hunting a couple of years ago.

    6. Ann Furthermore*

      Thanks all. You can’t be too careful. I just got a text from someone full of bad grammar and misspelled words from someone saying they worked for this weird, random-sounding company called “GN Group of Company.” I looked up the company, and there was just a bare minimum website, with a bunch of nebulous information and an incorporation address in the Cayman Islands. They wanted my email address to do an interview via chatting in Google Hangouts. I did about 30 seconds of research and found out that this is a scam (shocker).

      You’d think that anyone attempting to pull a fast one on people would make more of an effort to sound legitimate trying to con you. Sigh.

      1. Lirael*

        Actually, in some cases with people running scams, they’ll intentionally have a bunch of red flags at the beginning! They want to screen specifically for people who don’t notice those initial red flags, so they’re not spending time on people who don’t end up giving them money/info/whatever. But it does feel a little insulting when you get something so obviously sketchy, haha.

    8. DizzyFog*

      I haven’t used Virtual Vocations, but I did pay for a membership to FlexJobs two different times and it’s the same principle. It’s a search aggregator, so the job postings aren’t found ONLY on that site, but if you’re specifically looking for jobs with flex options like telecommuting, it has already pulled those out of the mix and verified that the listing is legit. Both my husband and I found jobs via FlexJobs. We both work from home now 100% and are loving it (me going on 5 years, him 2 years). Worth the fee to me, but probably only if you’re specifically looking for that type of job.

      1. Samata*

        I have thought about using Flex Jobs to find part time work from home opportunities to supplement income. Sounds like you were looking for FT, but does Flex also list part time – or do you even know?

    9. WorkingOnIt*

      Also not familiar with this firm, but there are lots of companies you pay monthly fees to see a job board, unfortunately a lot of the time this information is skimmed from other sites, or available on other free sites. Google what you can from the information they’ve given you, to see if it’s available on a free site.

    10. De Minimis*

      Right there with you, I have the luxury of knowing my layoff date nearly a year in advance, but I’m looking now.

    11. Penny*

      I’ve never heard of them but I’m going to suggest avoiding it! There are tons of jobs posted out there & they are free. And it’s very possible they are just taking those free jobs & reposting them & trying to get people in need of a job to pay for what they think is special access.

      I got a call once from an angry job seeker that they had to pay to apply to my company’s job. Well he was on one of those sites that scrapes our jobs & was trying to take advantage of people. I guess he didn’t understand it wasn’t iur site or us charging people. We would never charge someone to apply to a job nor would any legit websites or staffing agencies we work with. Don’t do it!

    12. MillersSpring*

      A good practice when you’re concerned that a company might be a scam is to google their name + scam (or complaints). Often helps!

    13. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      I’m not familiar with that particular one, but I DO know of legit (and good!) job boards that you have to pay to be part of (Tom Manatos comes to mind for the DC area). They’re often scams, but not always!

  2. TGIF*

    Myself and another woman, Jane, are both administrative support for a particular team. We work closely with the team lead, Chris, for answering phones, editing documents, creating invoices and other stuff like that to keep the team on track. I’ve been here a year, Jane for three years. Chris has recently been strict about not wanting both of us out on leave at the same time. Jane said it’s the first time he’s ever done this. It’s frustrating but hasn’t been a problem since our leave has never overlapped.

    Now I think it will be a problem. Our leave is ‘use it or lose it’ on the anniversary of our hire and Jane suddenly realized she had a bunch of leave that she was about to lose at the end of March. With Chris’ reluctant permission, Jane has been taking Fridays off for the last five weeks to use up all her leave before March ends. Except I was also planning to take the last Friday off to attend an event happening that day. I mentioned the overlap to Jane, and she simply shrugged and said ‘Well, Chris granted both of our leave requests so that’s on him’.

    She and I both know he is very forgetful; he’s asked me where Jane is every Friday she’s taken off even though he agreed to her plans (he asked me about 30 min before posting this if she was coming in today). We know for a fact that he accepted both of our digital requests and won’t realize we’re both gone until the day of. I’m a little annoyed with Jane because I know she doesn’t have anything to do that Friday; she said she’s enjoyed her long weekends this last month but she doesn’t have any plans and just chills at home. She knows I’m taking the Friday for a specific reason, to attend a ticketed event happening only that day; I don’t have flexibility for my time off like she does. I was hoping she would agree to switch her last leave day to another day but she’d rather let it go. I know Jane has been annoyed with Chris stressing he wants at least one of us there all the time and I think she’s doing this as a small rebellion.

    Should I do anything? Should I mention to Chris that I think we’re going to be out the same day? Should I outright ask Jane to move her leave? Should I let it go and then defend myself when it comes back that I had a ticketed event to go to that I couldn’t miss? I don’t think we’ll get in big huge trouble for this but I know Chris will scold us and double down even more on our leave. What should I do? (And yes it is the Good Friday of Easter weekend but neither of us need to be out for religious reasons.)

    1. Maya Elena*

      This is a great case of ask forgiveness not permission. Only bring it up to Chris if you know the outcome wont be you losing that day.

    2. Workerbee*

      If your leave was granted before Jane’s sudden slew of Fridays, and you have a way to prove that (system documentation/email/etc), then perhaps just do a “Just a reminder, Chris, I’ll be out this Friday per your approval on X date.” If you feel you should, add in that you’ll be attending a planned purchased event.

      Ordinarily I wouldn’t say to remind him because of the chance he’ll try to rescind his approval, but if it would help you avoid any stress or worry about what you’ll be coming back to…?

      If you don’t have any way of “proving” to Chris’s own mind that he agreed to what he agreed to, take off anyway. Let him scold if he’s going to; it’s your leave to take, and Jane certainly has no problem forging ahead merrily with hers.

        1. Michelle*

          Seconded. You said Chris was forgetful, but it’s easy to purchase a small calendar put the days you request off, with the date you requested it.

          I actually have the same situations as TGIF, except that our boss knows that occasionally I and the other admin will be off the same day. We do try to minimize overlap, but if the office can’t function one day without both of you there then that’s something Chris needs to make a plan for (other than you can never be off the same time).

          Have you outright asked Jane if she would agree to move her day since you are going to a 1 day ticketed event? I would try that first. Good luck!

          1. Rose*

            Yeah, seriously – you can generally avoid planned vacations at the same time, but what if one of you is out of the country and the other comes down with the flu? Does he expect them to show up anyway? What if that person’s parent dies or they end up in the hospital? The office needs to have a plan in place for that happening every once in a while.

        3. Thlayli*

          Yes. Send the email reminder at 5pm on Thursday and if possible do it as a reply to his acceptance of your request.

    3. ThinkingOutloud*

      Was your request in first? I think it’s in your best interest to mention to Chris the overlap and that you have a ticketed event. Then it’s on him to make adjustments with Jane, not you. I’d rather he know this week rather than be taken by surprise and be angry at you both. Maybe he’ll ask Jane to move to a Monday, but either way, I don’t think you have the standing to ask Jane to move her leave, since Chris did approve it.

      1. Blue Eagle*

        Rather than remind Chris that he approved both of you being out that day, I would only say something like “This is a reminder that I will be out on Friday to attend xyz ticketed event (you approved this back in January when I bought my tickets)”

    4. Susan K*

      It’s nice of you to care, but unless everything will completely fall apart with both you and Jane absent, I think it’s not your problem. If Chris really can’t deal with both of you being out on the same day, he should have paid more attention when he granted your requests. What would he do if you happened to get sick on the same day Jane had scheduled leave? I bet he can survive for one day with both of you out.

      1. I See Real People*

        I agree with Susan and will add that the OP is also not responsible for Chris’ forgetfulness. If he’s not responsible enough to remember that he granted one or both of them leave, perhaps he should not be in charge of them.

      2. Joielle*

        This is where I come down on it too. If Chris can’t figure out a system for tracking these overlapping requests that he’s so concerned about, that’s on him. What if you and Jane had never talked about the requests and never realized they would be on the same day? I don’t think this is on you to figure out.

      3. TGIF*

        The office definitely wouldn’t fall to pieces without both of us there; Chris just prefers to have one of us nearby. I totally agree with the possibility of one getting sick and the other out on leave; it hasn’t seemed to cross Chris’ mind.

        And he does actually have a calendar printed out weekly with the leave requests of the team for the next few months on it. Our overlapping days have been there for him to see for at least a month and a half but he hasn’t noticed it. And he has directly put it back on Jane and I manage, saying that when we make our leave requests, make sure the other is here. I check mine with Jane and she was fine; then she realized about her leave that was going to expire and put in for every Friday through March. When I pointed out my Friday leave to her, that’s when Jane shrugged it off.

        1. This is She*

          Yeeaahhhh…. you are completely in the cleear here. I mena, I thought you were before, but now, with this new calendar info — he hasn’t got a leg to stand on.
          I also agree with the courtesy heads-up email — at 5:00 Thursday.

          You’re golden, TGIF.

        2. Life is Good*

          What’s sort of annoying for me is that Jane is not being very considerate of your concerns. It is nice for her to be able to take long weekends to use up the leave, but pretty inconsiderate of her not to give up this one day (and take another day that week) for you. I know you said you think she is just annoyed at Chris for his policy, but does she realize she is putting you in an awkward position? She is being kind of selfish.

          1. Oilpress*

            Jane is the sort of person I would want to fire. Not a team player at all. Someone needs to remind her that she works for someone/thing, not the other way around.

        3. What's with today, today?*

          Are you 100% sure he hasn’t noticed? Maybe he has, he realizes it’s only one day and has no need to say anything.

    5. Adlib*

      I’m not sure of the best thing to do, but if it were me, I’d probably bring this up to Chris. Knowing that he’s forgetful of who is out when, it’s surely something that will be a problem for him the day of. Who knows what he would do then. Call both of you to see where you are? I agree with your assessment – he will likely double down on the policy, and while I don’t think it’s reasonable, it sounds like the most likely scenario. If both of you got sick at the same time, would he still demand one of you come in?

      I would bring up to him that you have an event that is planned and ticketed also. Is there also a way to get your leave days on his Outlook calendar? That’s how many teams in my firm do it to keep track. I get Jane’s inclination to let it go, but I think that’s going to have the opposite effect of what she’s hoping for. I’d be annoyed with her too. If it were me, I wouldn’t ask her to move her leave, just remind Chris you’ll both be out. I have no idea what he will do, but I think telling him is better than not.

    6. LizB*

      Oof. There are so many tricky things colliding here (your company’s annoying leave policy, Chris’s absentmindedness, Jane being kinda passive aggressive). I think if it were me, I’d talk to Jane and say, “Jane, I know that Chris approved both our leaves and therefore shouldn’t complain that we’re both out, and in principle I totally agree… but thinking pragmatically, I worry that if we just let this happen without warning him or trying to resolve it, he’s going to get even more picky and unreasonable about approving leave for us in the future. I don’t want to make this worse since it’s already an annoying situation. Can we alert him ahead of time, and maybe come to him with a potential solution ready to go in case he insists on having one of us here on Friday?” (and then transition into a conversation about moving around leave — can Jane take Monday off so she still gets her three-day weekend, just on the other end?)

      2. Arjay*

        It sounds like Monday might work this weekend (3/26), but the Monday of the following weekend would be after the “lose it” date of 3/31.

        1. LizB*

          Yeah, a lot would depend how flexible the policy is or how much leeway Chris has. I’ve seen it done sometimes where you just have to have the leave booked/entered/approved before your “lose it” date, but the actual day you book can be after the deadline… but that’s far from universal.

    7. LKW*

      Can she switch that Friday to the following Monday? She’d get the long weekend and you’d manage your coverage.

    8. Menacia*

      Oof yeah, if you were already approved, and Chris forgets, it’s on him. Just do what you were planning and don’t worry about it.

    9. Thorgar*

      You know Chris is not going to be happy. Although obviously he should have put two and two together, he’s going to feel outmaneuvered by the two of you. “Lawyering” your boss is not something that usually works well, even when you technically have him dead to rights, as you do here. You should remind him that both of you will be out the same day. It’s not worth burning trust over this.

    10. Robin Sparkles*

      I get being annoyed with Jane…I really do because I have been in a similar situation in past positions. BUT- this is not her problem either and it really isn’t your place to judge her on how she uses her approved leave time! It especially isn’t on her to be nice and switch if she treasures that Friday. She also got approval and knowing what she is doing with the approved time-off isn’t really your place. The real issue is Chris’ forgetfulness and, frankly, asinine policy that you both be there at the same-time every single time if there isn’t any business need for it. It’s just one Friday.

      1. TGIF*

        You’re right, I know you’re right, and I totally normally wouldn’t be judgy. If it was just the one day, I wouldn’t judge her. My frustration is stemming from this being a multiple-week day-off thing. To be fair, it wasn’t even her choice; Jane asked if she could do a longer run of days off (four day weekends as opposed to three so she would have used her leave faster) but Chris wouldn’t go for it.

        So though I know it totally isn’t her choice or her fault with how her time is being used, I’m still frustrated because I know I will be scolded for my one day off I’ve taken since the winter holidays while Jane has had six three day weekends in a row. I know it’s unfair to think like that; it’s just how my brain is interpreting it.

        1. nonymous*

          I think it’s helpful to re-frame this as “your Friday” and not a battle of seniority. You will never be senior to Jane – does this mean she can swoop in and steal your scheduled vacation whenever she wants? No. The policy is that when requesting leave to verify that no one else has already scheduled this off, which you did.

          I suspect you are concerned that when Chris discovers that both you and Jane are out that Friday, the new story will be that Jane coordinated with you so she could have all the Fridays. If this happens, just keep calm and point to your approval + the ticketing situation. Yes Chris’ policy is dumb. But if anyone broke the crappy rules it was Jane and Chris, not you. It is not your job to manage Jane’s use-or-lose leave. It is not your job to manage Chris’ ability to look at a printed calendar.

          1. Happy Lurker*

            Hopefully, since it is the Friday before a holiday weekend, it will be a quiet day and Chris will be out too!

          2. LeRainDrop*

            Yeah, I agree with this right here. You should be in the clear. And try not to focus on how Jane spends her time off because that’s really besides the point. Enjoy the event!

      2. Robin Sparkles*

        No I do get it- and honestly-it would be nice for her to do this one day for you. I think approaching it as a favor is better but since she already said no -you should follow the advice of notifying him the evening before and if it becomes a problem -remind Chris that you received approval and yours is a one-time ticketed event that you couldn’t reschedule. It means he will go after Jane but that’s not your issue. He can address it and she can fight him on that one!

    11. Sweet T*

      I’d be a little annoyed by Jane’s attitude too. She knows Chris wants at least one of you in the office. She apparently does not have actual plans on the Friday in question, and you do. It would be nice and reasonable if she would just take off that Monday, and you could both have three-day weekends, with Chris having someone in the office, as he expects.
      I would ask Jane again to consider taking Monday instead of Friday to avoid upsetting the apple cart.
      If Jane doesn’t agree, I would mention it to Chris and see if he will ask Jane to take Monday instead. “Chris, you actually approved for Jane and me to both be out on the 30th. I’m not sure you intended to do this because I know you expect for one of us to be in the office at all times. I have an important commitment on the 30th. Would you want to ask Jane to take off Monday instead?”

      1. Grumpy*

        No. Chris is the jerk, it’s his stupid policy and it’s his job to administer his own stupid policy. The team can answer their own damn phones and the invoices can wait for a day.

        1. Sunflower*

          Yes. Both Jane and OP did exactly what they are supposed to do. It’s not their job to manage Chris’s forgetfulness. If Chris wants to go ahead and blame OP for not having anyone in the office, I think OP might have bigger problems at work.

          1. Happy Lurker*

            Chris: TGIF I told you I wanted coverage
            TGIF: I put in for my day off in January when I purchased the tickets and didn’t give it another thought.
            Don’t mention Jane at all. Jane can have her own conversation with Chris.

        2. Jennifer*

          Much as I wish life worked like that…. it’s gonna end up on the OP and/or Jane if Chris is displeased.

    12. MissDisplaced*

      It would seem Chris could survive ONE Friday without both of you. Or maybe Jane would agree to work a 1/2 day in the AM to at least cover some of the day.
      I can understand not a whole week or something, but one day not so much.

  3. Marina*

    I’ve been in my role for 7 months. I work with “Elaine” and “Jerry” is our boss. At a recent meeting, the auditor “Jenny” was assigning times and when she got to our group, she goes, “Is that time okay, Jerry and Elaine?” Completely ignoring me.

    My boss then turned to me and said, “Marina, is that okay?”

    I don’t know why Jenny left me out- there was a time when I had to work with her and got a little emotional because it was a stressful time, but I wasn’t mean to her.

    I don’t get why I was overlooked. Is it normal to feel this way 7 months in a job? Am I just being sensitive?

    1. ZSD*

      I think you’re being too sensitive about this particular thing. If the auditor continues to ignore you, then yes, that’s an issue, but if this was a one-time thing, I’d guess that she just felt like saying, “Jerry, Elaine, and Marina,” would take too long.

    2. CTT*

      I don’t think we have enough information to judge. Did she know you would be accompanying Jerry and Elaine at the meeting? Could she have forgotten or been told you wouldn’t be there? Has she done anything like this before? If this is the first time, I think it’s best to assume it’s an innocent mistake.

    3. Artemesia*

      Be happy your boss visibly looped you in and stop thinking about it. Dwelling on stuff like this just makes you miserable.

      1. Lynca*

        Yeah. The fact he addressed it in the moment is really good. I’d put my energy there and not worry about Jenny.

    5. Jules*

      I’d let this one go, personally because she is showing bad behavior while my leader is there as witness. I’d be curious enough to ask my boss if it’s normal for her to only include 2 other people in consideration. But it could also be how it’s always done.

    6. Workerbee*

      I’m not sure–I’m equating this to emails, where sometimes you just check in with the boss of a project/situation because that boss will then disseminate / check in with his or her team. I’d err on the side of thinking the auditor was just being overly protocol-y and assuming that what’s good with the boss should therefore be good with you, versus deliberately overlooking you out of spite.

    7. LizB*

      It’s inconsiderate, for sure — but could Jenny possibly have forgotten your name, and this was her awkward way of working around it?

      2. Marina*

        This is what my husband suggested, but my name was right up there with Jerry and Elaine’s name.

    8. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      You’re way overthinking this. Let it go.

      I’m an auditor. I assume that I’ll primarily be interacting with boss and maybe the next level down. I generally don’t talk to the people at the individual contributor level unless it’s been specifically ok’ed by the boss. Since you and Elaine seem to be at the same level, but you’re new, I’d assume unless told otherwise that I’ll probably be working with Elaine. Now, if boss has set expectations and auditor isn’t following them, that’s on the auditor. However, we’re people too. If you started crying while I was talking to you, I’m going to feel really awkward. Beyond that, the auditor may have simply forgotten your name, or whatever. Auditors can deal with hundreds of people, different offices sort of blur together.

    9. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I would let it go. There are so many innocuous and non-rude/marginalizing reasons for this conversation to have happened the way it did that I don’t think it makes sense to invest emotional energy in trying to figure out why Jenny didn’t include you in her original ask. I also don’t think it signals some kind of breakdown in your relationship with Jenny. Most likely, she was being thoughtless, as all of us are from time to time.

      Re: whether you’re being sensitive, have other things happened at work that make you feel excluded or overlooked? I can’t tell how upset you were by this specific experience, but I assume it’s a non-minimal amount of frustration / hurt / upset because you asked about it, here. It may not be that you’re sensitive; it could be that this exchange triggered something else that’s been building up or bothering you at your NewJob.

    11. WorkingOnIt*

      Hmm – I think you both are and aren’t being ‘too sensitive.’ It’s valid to feel somewhat slighted by someone missing you out – and its great your manager both took note and rectified it. However you can’t fixate on this one instance (unless like others are saying this is a pattern) I think unfortunately you have to brush off a lot of insensitive moments in your work place – otherwise you will appear ‘too sensitive’ even if these are real slights. I would also not fixate on your past behaviour, you can’t fix what you may or may not have done, and you can’t get inside this woman’s head to figure out how she feels about you. You’ll probably have found you’ve done small things that have upset other people, without actively thinking or trying to do so (or realising). If it becomes a pattern of behaviour then you might have a cause to raise it with your manager – and in this case you may have support from your manager to rectify seeing as they chimed in straight away. Personally I think the thing to take away from this is your manager has your back, and is inclusive, and so clearly they think you’re an important part of the team.

  4. JobinPolitics*

    Short-term contract ended, looking to get into politics

    I’ve recently ended a short-term contract and am looking to move into working with an organization for this year’s mid-term elections.

    To date, I have applied to individual campaigns (vacancies already filled), state parties (applications still being processed), nationwide agencies (job banks and website accounts), and am looking at other ways to have my resume seen.

    Please let me know of any suggestions you have. Campaigns are currently hiring higher level managers, with which I have some experience, and I am excited about the opportunity to be involved.

    Thanks for any advice you care to provide!

      1. JobinPolitics*

        I’ve applied to jobs through ListServes, job boards and candidate websites.

        We’re just as the beginning of the election cycle with the primaries scheduled for May. I’m hoping to get in early and make the most of the experience.

        1. grace*

          You might try Idealist or reaching out through networks – my friends in politics generally get their jobs by networking, either with former coworkers, alumni networks, or just friends of friends. They’re used to it, so reaching out through LinkedIn to a virtual (heh) stranger that you have some connections with is less frowned upon (though if you can get a connection to link you up, that’s way better).

          I hesitate to suggest interning, because almost none of them will pay, but it can be a way to get your foot in the door if you’ve got the savings and no other recourse.

          1. Frances*

            Yes! It’s a field where networking is so important. I think beyond field grunts, not many people get hired without knowing anyone. And if it’s a high profile race, that applies to the field grunts, too.

          2. zora*

            I second work your network. Campaigns tend to hire people they know have some experience, because it is such a short timeline, you really don’t have a lot of time to fire and rehire if someone flames out. And it really isn’t the job for everyone, so flaming out is a real danger.

            You say you have some experience, ask around anyone you know from campaign work and ask if they know anyone working on a mid-term in your area. This is a good time to do it because people aren’t so slammed yet, so they have time to do this. And yes, people in campaigns are used to this, so don’t feel awkward about it. And it’s a small world, so no matter where people are located currently, they know people running campaigns all over.

            Also, if you are on the Dem side, check out Democratic Gain. At least last time I did campaigns it was the main place people were posting Dem campaign jobs.

            And interning is unpaid, so that’s not ideal, but be explicit in your cover letter about being willing to start at a lower level, people can move up really quickly in a campaign, so if you’re willing to start lower and do a lot of the grunt work for the first couple of months, showing them your work first hand can be the best way to quickly get promoted into a higher job when they start staffing up in the summer. I know a lot of people that started as, say, Communications Staff, and were Deputy Comms Director by July.

            1. JobinPolitics*

              Zora, what a great comment and breakdown of resources! Thanks!

              I just looked at Democratic Gain earlier as well as EMILY’S LIST and MoveOn.org. I have opened accounts on each site, complete with cover letter and resume.

              Additionally, I have reached out to my former employer with whom I have a decent relationship and asked for any leads they could provide. It’s only been a few days, so I want to give people a realistic and professional amount of time to respond.

              Again, I appreciate your response. Thanks!

              1. Heather*

                I think Wellstone Action also has a job board that’s similar to Democratic Gain. And The Arena has one, although I’m not sure how frequently they update it.

          3. JobinPolitics*

            Grace, thanks for the reply and suggestion of using LinkedIn!

            I have reached out to some people via LinkedIn and have touched base with some people who work for the different political parties. Given that I’ve only just started and it’s March, I know I need to be patient and strategic.

            To help ingratiate myself, I am planning on attending some meet-and-greet and panel discussion events. I’m hoping to connect with some people there.

            1. zora*

              These are great ideas!!
              Don’t be afraid to just keep putting it out there, too!! Post on your fb, twitter, post on your Linked in that you would love to work on a campaign, if anyone has leads.

              Email/Linked in anyone you can think of that might have connections in that world. Don’t harrass people, obviously, but people get busy, so sending a reminder in 2 weeks if you haven’t heard from folks is ok. The events is a great idea. Think of it as almost running your own mini-campaign ;o) for yourself and keep putting out feelers. Something will come through, it’s just about timing at this point. Good luck!

            2. nonymous*

              Also try reaching out to your former peers. As someone else said, it’s a very narrow field and even people who were successful in one cycle may find campaign positions are not for them (for example, if they now have young children). However, they still might know someone or know of vacancies that would be a good match for you.

    2. Amy Gardner*

      I recommend:
      – Democratic GAIN (seconded Zora!)
      – Jobs That Are Left (progressive Google group)
      – Wellstone Action (progressive Google group)
      – District Daybook (mostly progressive)

      Some friends have gotten on campaigns through campaign job fairs, though I’m not sure how to seek those out. For example, one friend went to a job fair in Philly and moved to Austin the following week. Make sure you’re prepared to move somewhere random on very short notice!

      If you’re trying to get on a conservative race… I can’t help you :-p

      1. zora*

        Oh yeah, true, for higher level jobs a lot of people get hired to move/live in another state for the campaign cycle, so just be aware, if you’re not able to do that then you are competing against those people, too. It’s a special world, campaign world. ;o)

      2. JobinPolitics*

        Amy Gardner, thanks so much for this helpful list!

        I have visited some of those websites but am not familiar with District Daybook. I really appreciate the info and plan to keep your friends’ experience in mind as a I move forward with the application process.

    3. Double A*

      You are acting like it’s early, but many campaigns are in full force right now. I’ve been working on the congressional campaigns in my district (on a volunteer basis) for a year. Granted, that was recruiting, and now is the time campaigns are shifting into GOTV, but do not think you’ll be walking into an organization that is just gearing up. The good news is that campaigns are incredibly accessible. I mean, I have my Congressional candidate’s personal cell phone number because I’m someone she’s networked with.

      I’d say the easiest campaigns to get into would be ones that are local to you or that you have a geographic connection to. Also, that makes it easier to show up to a campaign event. Campaigns are a bit of an exception to the “gumption” rules, where showing up, introducing yourself to the boss (the candidate) can be a good way to get in. You can meet the candidate, introduce yourself, say you’re looking for a job, and ask who to contact in their campain (don’t hand the candidate your resume).

      Also, if you start volunteering for a campaign and show yourself reliable and energetic, you have a good chance of getting a job if you want it.

      Just make sure it’s a campaign with enough money to staff up!

  5. Naptime Enthusiast*

    So, I got a very weird phone call at work. It was apparently from a recruiter at another company, but I wasn’t familiar with the company name and frankly very annoyed that someone would call me on my work phone number about a job at another company, so I cut the recruiter off and said “Thank you but I am not interested at this time, please don’t call me on my work number about opportunities again”. Kinda rude, I know, but it was unsolicited and I’m on a deadline at work and hadn’t finished my coffee yet.

    But then I started thinking about it more, and noticed these issues:

    1. I never list my work phone number. Anywhere. I only have it on my business card, but I hand those out to our suppliers or other business contacts, and I don’t know anyone at this company. And even if I did, why wouldn’t that person reach out to me directly since I gave them my card?

    2. The phone number that came up on caller ID is similar to our company phone numbers, which is why I answered immediately. When I looked it up in our directory, it belongs to a technician of the opposite gender than the person that called me. So it looks like they spoofed their phone number, but WHY?

    3. We frequently receive training about phishing/social engineering and being aware of the different methods scammers will use to get information, and after realizing the phone number was spoofed, my spidey senses are tingling.

    4. I tried looking up the company online but couldn’t find anything, but I didn’t write it down before cutting the recruiter off so I might not have the name exactly right.

    AAM experts: Was this a social engineering/phishing attempt, or just a recruiter that caught me on a really bad day? Had I been a little more awake I would have asked where they got my name and phone number from, or even listened to what they had to say, but in the moment I was more intent on getting off the phone with a recruiter than figuring out how they came to call me.

    1. Trillion*

      I think your hunch is likely correct, especially because of the caller ID thing. I think you handled it just fine.

      1. Jesca*

        Sorry hit send too quick.

        I would also report this incident if your company has a policy regarding phishing and social engineering.

        1. Naptime Enthusiast*

          We do, I usually only use it for emails so I had to go and find the phone call policy.

          1. Natalie*

            Well, there’s no harm in reporting it. If it was benign presumably they’ll be able to figure that out from the phone records.

            1. Thlayli*

              Agreed. Report it to the relevant person at your company (or to your boss if you don’t know who that is).

    3. paul*

      The call spoofing kind of removes any reasonable doubt to me. Treat it like a scam/phising attempt.

    4. BlueWolf*

      A similar thing happened to me (recruiter called me at work), but in my case I think he called reception and then they transferred him over to me, so the number may have come up like it was reception calling me. Could it have been a similar scenario? It is also possible it was just a spoofing thing.

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        We don’t have a receptionist that I know of, our local admins are more office managers and our front desk is security. But that doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

    5. Joielle*

      Could it have been a test? Our office often does training on this kind of thing too, and then they’ll randomly send us a sketchy email or a weird call to see if we recognize it as phishing.

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        It might have been? Usually we get email tests because they’re a lot easier to “grade”.

      2. Sapphire (formerly EnobyPro)*

        Ooh, OldJob did this too. We got to the point where a legit email that just looked like phishing got reported, because of course.

    6. Elizabeth H.*

      It could be some kind of phishing attempt but without knowing what kind of information they were trying to get out of you, it could just be cold sales calls (for recruiting or for whatever reason) or spam in general. I would just forget about it and not a big deal. I get spoofed number calls pretty frequently, they try to hit as similar to your number as possible.

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        This is true, I’ve just never had a recruiter call me ever, so I would think they wouldn’t call me at work? Especially so early in the morning.

        1. Coalea*

          I get occasional calls from recruiters on my work line. I don’t think it’s that unusual. Even if you don’t give out your work number, there are plenty of ways to suss out that information online. The caller ID part is weird, but I don’t think you need to be overly concerns about it.

        2. RachelR*

          The sketchy ones will. When OldCompany got sold, recruiters were calling our customer service line and asking to talk to employees.

    7. The Photographer's Husband*

      Yes, I’d say at best, just a bad recruiter that might have bought a list of phone numbers somewhere and is going through them. At worst, a Russian hacker attempting to infiltrate your company’s network for nefarious purposes (though through the guise of a recruiter, I’m not sure how that’d work.)

      Either way, I think you’re pretty safe in both your response and just shrugging your shoulders and moving on, but perhaps keeping an eye out for other suspicious calls/emails. Does your company have a policy to report that? Some encourage it so that their IT department can block incoming calls/emails.

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        We do have a policy, but I had to go and look it up for phone calls since it’s much less common than emails.

    8. KG*

      Could someone internally have transferred the call? On my company phone system, external numbers will appear as internal if transferred.

      This isn’t my style as a recruiter, but… If the recruiter found your name or resume somewhere but didn’t have your number, they may have called whatever number they could find at the company, then asked to be transferred to you.

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        Minions like me don’t get calls forwarded, only big wigs with admins :) I know there is a way to transfer calls but so few of us actually use it that I don’t know what it would look like.

    9. SallyF*

      It sounds like you went with your immediate gut instinct and your reaction was appropriate for what it absolutely seems to be – something “phishy.”

    10. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      I think there’s three options here:
      1.) If someone transfers your call to another line, does the call display as the original call number or the number of the person transferring that call? All of my recent jobs are the latter. If that is the case, the most likely scenario is that the recruiter had the tech’s number and your name (maybe saw it on LinkedIn). Recruiter calls tech’s number and asks them to be transferred to you (they might have been honest and the tech didn’t care or they could have lied “oh I’m a friend of Naptime’s, must have dialed the wrong number – would you mind transferring me over”). Shady on the recruiter’s part, but at least not a social engineering/phishing attempt.
      2.) This is still a recruiter, but a really, really, really shady one who has invested in spoofing software and somehow had the Tech’s number (which they purposely chose to emulate). This one is pretty unlikey, but theoretically possible. No reasonable recruiter would do this, but I’ve met a couple desperate/shady ones out there…
      3.)Some sort of phishing/social engineering attemp – or a test from your own IT dept. I would definitely report it to your IT dept if you think this is the case.

      Personally – I think #1 is the most likely. You can probably test this out with a co-worker and a cell phone to confirm either way.

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        I can’t remember any time I’ve transferred a call or had it done for me and really couldn’t tell you how to do it on our phones. We usually give someone the phone number of the person they’re trying to reach and they hang up and call the correct number. So if it was transferred it might show up as the technician’s phone number and not the recruiter’s, and knowing our technicians they wouldn’t be inclined to be helpful for no reason.

    11. Oxford Coma*

      It sounds like corporate phishing rather than personal phishing. So, less “what is your name and social security number” and more “what is your company’s budget for Q3 and which markets are you targeting”.

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        That’s what I meant by social engineering too but it didn’t come across that way – sometimes people try and build up hierarchies and figure out who the big wigs are, or who works on what teams and products. Or at least that’s what the training videos with really bad acting seem to say.

    12. BenAdminGeek*

      Sounds fishy- can you report it internally so folks are aware? At OldJob we could do that, so I would send along stuff like this to the appropriate team and then let them handle it.

    13. Naptime Enthusiast*

      Thanks all for your comments and suggestions. It probably was just a cold-calling recruiter, but I’ve reported it internally just in case.

      If it was a recruiter, I do still feel bad that I snapped and cut them off when they’re just doing their job. I’ll probably dwell on this for the next four years and remember what a terrible person I am.

      1. KG*

        Nah, don’t. I’ve been the cold calling recruiter. The typical success rate is 1%. You get a tough skin pretty quickly.

      2. Epsilon Delta*

        Oh my gosh no you don’t need to feel bad for what you said, whether it was a “real” recruiter or not! Not only are they being rude by cold-calling you about something they have no reason to believe you are interested in, but they are putting you in a really awkward/downright bad situation at work where you are using company property to discuss job opportunities outside the company! They are the ones being rude here.

    14. designbot*

      I’ve had this happen too. I call them out for the indiscretion of it and ask how they got this number.
      Of course it helps that I’m not looking…

  6. Detective Amy Santiago*

    So frustrated this week by lack of communication among our internal staff. People never tell me what is going on and I’m the first point of contact so I end up looking like an idiot because I have no idea what callers are talking about.

    This is why I’m looking for a job where I am not the first point of contact.

    1. Michelle*

      PREACH It’s not that hard to cc people on emails or shoot them an email, phone call, text, etc. if something changes. Maybe you could suggest a monthly calendar with goings-on listed? We use Outlook and although I do get annoyed by somethings, it’s helpful to see what it happening each day/week/month.

      1. WorkingOnIt*

        Hmm I was asked to send out an email with an attachments to clients, if I hadn’t read the attachment (no details in the email) I would have been unaware of what the idea was – and as brand manager it was kind of essential I did especially as it was telling the clients how to contact me about this initiative – which hadn’t been explained to me. I guess this isn’t cc’ing in – but really communicating with your staff shouldn’t be that hard, especially when you want them to communicate about these ideas and act on them with others. Lol I’m not bitter about this at all.

    2. Ama*

      I hated that so much when I was in that position, too. (The worst part was my boss never remembered what she had and hadn’t told me, so she’d tell me the same thing five times but forget something else.) I now try to make sure our first point of contact knows when I am expecting a lot of inquiries about something because I remember how frustrating it was to suddenly get half a dozen calls about something the person in charge forgot to tell me.

    3. WorkingOnIt*

      My last job was like this – have no idea why higher ups think its a good idea to put out initiatives and then not fill in the person who answers the phones and speaks to the public. This is part of your communications/marketing/PR and making your team feel included and you know valued. Also inclusion of the people who actually deal with these activites day-in day-out would also lead to them being trouble-shooted beforehand, rather than the person learning about it while they’re asked about it by a customer and then not actually knowing or understanding the process of what they’re meant to do – and also the process is ridiculous because higher-ups don’t know how any of these things worked.
      Anywho… I left that job and I too hope I don’t have to work as first point of call, or at least the next job loops me in and values my opinion.

    4. oranges & lemons*

      I had a similar issue this week–I wasn’t sure if we had received a document from a client so I asked my coworkers and everyone said we were still waiting on it. Of course it turns out he sent it a month ago and I look completely disorganized.

    5. Jennifer*

      Been there.
      Though sometimes now that I’m not FPOV, I end up being unpleasantly surprised myself so it’s not like I could have informed that person either. Like the time when I contacted a guy to get back to me ASAP online, which he did not for days on end, and then without talking to me he took 2.5 hours to drive over here and of course he shows up in person needing me the one morning when I’m in a work class. FPOV was mad at me, but hell, I didn’t know he was going to do that either!

  7. Anon here yet again*

    My work place has been a real soap opera this week. It’s high stress due to demanding work loads and the people are very interesting.

    My co-worker got mad at my boss because he supposedly “gave her a look” and stopped talking and just sat there in the meeting. She then locked herself in her office until lunch.

    My boss was mad at his boss and was going to quit on the spot if his boss made him sign off on a document. (Luckily he didn’t!)

    My other co-worker just sits on Linkedin and gmail all day long. People in the WHOLE department make fun of him for it and we all think he’s job searching because he’ll randomly leave for a few hours and then come back with some bs story.

    There’s always something going on. It’s been interesting and well, stressful.

    Anyone else have an office where it’s more like a soap opera?

    1. JobinPolitics*

      Anon here yet again, your workplace sounds awful and very emotionally taxing!

      I recently left an office where extended silent treatment was tolerated, management was largely absent, and gossip was allowed to the point of almost being encouraged. My only advice is to find an exit strategy as quickly as you can.

      Seeing a colleague lock herself in an office and people fighting over supposed looks is not healthy, mature or remotely professional.

      You have my sympathies!

      1. Anon here too*

        JobinPolitics, that sounds like what I am dealing with! Silent treatment from another coworker for going on 6 months! Maybe management can’t fix it, but it doesn’t even look like they are trying. I feel like it’s bullying behavior at this point. Any advice to help me deal until I can escape?

        I’ve tried opening up communication with this person, but it went very poorly with the person reacting with hostility towards me. It’s definitely not me, it’s them!

    2. The Original Flavored K*

      Anon, your office sounds wonderfully insane. Are you getting through by pretending you’re an anthropologist studying an “undiscovered” culture?

      Have I mentioned My Highly Efficient And Well-Administrated County Hospital? Literally the day I was hired here, my hiring manager and several other highly placed, important people were let go with no notice and no plan for continuity, including the wife of a state rep. The husband, annoyed, started a fight in the local newspaper, and our CEO fought back. People who had been here ten years or more were marched out of their offices by police, and all the locks on the associated clinic doors were changed.

      I was purposefully kept out of the space where my office was supposed to be for the first month after my hiring because it was deemed a toxic environment, and then when I finally did get here, one of the receptionists called a manager a “dumb broad” in front of a patient. She was suspended for that, then brought back, then loudly discussed her meeting with HR (including several four letter words) in front of patients (AGAIN). One of the patients knew a doctor’s wife, and the doctor’s wife texted the CEO a play-by-play. Literally the only reason she wasn’t packing her desk that day was that the other receptionist was on vacation — but they had a temp in as “help” for her the very next day, and the day that the other receptionist came back, the problem child was fired.

      1. Anon here yet again*

        Oh, yes. I do the anthropologist idea and also think about SNL sketches. (My coworker and boss could totally be an SNL sketch!) It’s crazy and some of them are very b****y as heck, but they can also be caring and supportive. So it’s crazy, but at the moment, I have no other options for income. I’m sending out resumes though, so fingers crossed!

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        I was just coming here to say that exact thing. I’d be doing the same thing if I was working there!

      2. Anon here yet again*

        True, but he has actual work to do that he is not doing and that’s a problem. We all have to fill in for him and help out.

    5. hbc*

      Well, let’s see. Everyone thinks the main manager on site is sleeping with the HR person, who was hired by him despite having no HR background, and happens to share the same unusual name as his wife. The owner is randomly bringing two people from a competitor to our biggest tradeshow as our company’s guests and not giving an explanation, so the sales guys are spreading rumors that we’re going to be sold. Another team ended up firing someone by phone when he was home sick because they had interviews scheduled for his replacement before even telling him his job was at risk. I announced I’m quitting the same week someone else in our small office gave notice, and one of the kind-of-joking-but-maybe-not theories is that we’re both leaving because we’re having an affair. But no, I’m primarily leaving because I’m finding evidence that someone was sabotaging my team (probably through incompetence rather than malice) and then used it to get ahead. I had at least six people in my office crying about my leaving.

      So yeah, soap opera, but at least I get to change the channel soon!

    6. SophieChotek*

      Wow…it would be great if it was a TV show or comedy (maybe); sorry to hear you are going through it in real life, though.

      My boss resigns every other year or so (I think because she disagrees with the CEO) but then never actually leaves/keeps pushing her “last day” out; but that’s pretty tame.

    7. AFineSpringDay*

      Oh yes!

      My new boss loathes one of my colleagues and is actively taking work away from her and claiming she has an attitude about everything. My colleague is the kind of person who wants to be SO HELPFUL ALWAYS, but her helpfulness always veers into overbearing. So she has tried to be as helpful as she can but new boss is not responding well. She actually spent an hour on the phone with HR complaining about my colleague.

      Our new boss is the type of person who thinks she knows everything about everything and doesn’t need our help to learn anything about our department or company, or even need to spend time building relationships with us, her team. Not joking here, she’s out of the office in meetings with other departments 7 hours a day. And she has publicly (internally) said things that are 100% not true or she should be more circumspect about.

      My other colleagues and I are trying to stay out of the line of fire.

    8. MsChanandlerBong*

      My company is usually pretty drama-free, but we’ve had a little excitement this week. It’s our busy season, so we hired someone to work nights for the next two months so that I don’t get bogged down when I come in at 8 a.m. We have tons of freelancers, and my boss usually hires temporary and part-time workers from the pool of freelancers who have proven they do good work. He offered someone the temp job, but then that person turned it down. So, the temporary position went to another writer. Well, it turns out he’s a total jerk. He has been sending the nastiest comments to our freelance writers, telling them they can’t write, that their command of English is poor, etc. This morning, I came in to find out he’d been arguing with one of our best writers (and, coincidentally, our first choice for the temporary position). He gave the writer wrong information, and the writer knew it was wrong, so he refused to do what the temporary editor told him to do. I am glad this guy will only be around until mid-May, and I hope to heaven he’s not asked to come back next time we’re busy.

      1. WellRed*

        Aren’t you afraid the freelances will get sick of the abuse and say “see ya!” After all, they aren’t beholden to your company.

        1. MsChanandlerBong*

          YES. I cringe every time I read one of his messages. The guy he was arguing with is in our top three best freelancers (which is why we initially offered him the temp job), AND he does a lot of specialized work not many other people can handle. If he gets mad and quits, it’d be a real loss. The guy’s already been told to tone it down. His idea of toning it down was copy/pasting a list of a freelancer’s errors into a message and then challenging him to figure out what was wrong with them. I mean, yeah, there were errors, but that’s why we have editors. The writing wasn’t bad overall.

    9. Spooky*

      Our CEO and one of our VPs are no longer speaking to each other (they’re both men, for the record). So, you know, that’s great for morale and business direction.

    11. Viva*

      Well.

      Annie and Bert had a baby. Then they broke up, and Bert dated Chrissy while continuing to sleep with Annie. Bert’s BFF Danny was also in love with Chrissy but having an on-and-off relationship with Ellen. Bert and Chrissy eventually broke up, and during one of Danny and Ellen’s off periods, Bert slept with Ellen too. Bert is now sleeping with all three women. Danny found out about Bert and Ellen and was very upset. Bert and Ellen got together officially but he was still cheating on her and now Annie is pregnant again! Ellen may also be pregnant! Chrissy is not pregnant! (Bert asked her if she would like to be and was offended when she said no.) Bert left Ellen and went back to Annie (while continuing to sleep with Ellen and Chrissy). Meanwhile, Ellen tried to hook up with Danny again but he was now dating her roommate Fiona. Bert left Annie again after about a week and begged Ellen (who is not pregnant, in the end) to take him back, which she did. He continues to sleep with both Annie and Chrissy.

      Almost all of these people live in adjacent apartments. (The neighbors downstairs are also my coworkers and have their own set of drama. Small towns are great.) Everyone but Ellen was once my coworker. At the same time. Annie, Bert, and Chrissy would call off frequently in order to either sleep together or prevent the other two from sleeping together (if Annie was scheduled to work but Bert and Chrissy were not, Annie would pretend to be sick so that she could stay home and interrupt them. Bert would also feign injury so that he could leave early and have sex with whichever girlfriend was not at work). Everyone involved received disciplinary action ranging from write up to suspension to demotion for their inability to show up and work a full shift. Annie and Chrissy eventually both found new jobs and left, which lessened the amount of drama I deal with on a daily basis.

    12. OhGee*

      Is anybody out there a former non-profit person who has successfully made the switch to for-profit? After several years in publishing, I got a master’s degree in an arts field, and have been working in non-profits for the last six years. I currently do communications, event management, and fundraising for a non-profit in a mid-sized city. The pay and benefits are solid, but the city is one of the most expensive in the country. Me and my partner bought a house about an hour away, in a much more affordable area (with a less robust economy), close to a smaller city. I’ve been interested in changing jobs for a while now, and the long commute (90-120 minutes each way, compared to 30-45 when I lived in the city where my job is located) has convinced me that now is the right time to make a shift. I’m considering going back to the corporate world, but am worried about two things: passion and skill set. In the past, when I have considered going back to a for-profit company, I’ve been repulsed by the idea. I think I’ve moved past that now, but I am worried about whether my skill set will prevent me from getting a for-profit job that isn’t totally boring. I am a project and event manager, but I am not PMP-certified. I have above-average technical knowledge, but I am definitely not a programmer. I feel like I am going to take a huge pay cut (30%) in order to either do similar work for a nonprofit that’s closer to my new home OR to do lower-level work in a for-profit, while I build a stronger technical skillset or pursue something like PMP certification. Have you made the switch? How do your passions fit in to your life away from a non-profit job? What the heck is a nonprofit program manager qualified to do in the corporate world?

    13. spegasi*

      Bro hold on to your socks cause I’m about to tell you a story. We were left without a boss for a couple of months and a new one finally came in. Except she started out her introduction by telling us no one was ever going to betray her and basically asserting herself as the best person to ever grace the planet. She also threw a small tantrum over how the budget is handled and made everyone who doesn’t speak a second language and a masters feel like shit. Over the course of the weekend most people started looking for jobs because there was no way we were going to be able to work like this, especially after she forbade us from ever looking at our phones and eating anything unless it was our lunch hour. But lo and behold on Tuesday she is fired and she tells us how much she is going to miss us when she couldn’t remember anyones name, unless she asked you to be her driver cause she needed one aparently. Later on we find out she wanted to fire all of us and bring in her friends, which is why she was fired. She even tried to negotiate getting a less important position cause she quit her previous job to come here. It was a fucking wild ride.

    14. oh so anon*

      A few jobs ago I worked at a small drama llama farm. Anakin, our head boss, opted not to wear underwear, which was painfully obvious and made one-on-one meetings awkward. He also pawned off all his work on his female underlings while he traveled around the country on his side gig. He was unrepentant about being out of the office so much, because his side gig brought in solid money. Then Ben had some fairly serious substance abuse issues and none of us knew how to help him so he had to be pretty publicly arrested before anyone stepped in. And there was Leia, who was constantly being hit on by fellow coworkers, which made her uncomfortable. She started going out with Han, who was super jealous and controlling and worked on Leia’s team, and it was nonstop drama after that. Plus, we were losing POCs left and right and no one really cared to take action on the simple and reasonable things they could do to retain us, so I took my happy black behind right on out of there and to a much better job. I feel bad for the colleagues I left behind, but it’s a pretty broken workplace and I doubt things will change.

    16. vegetablelasagna*

      My current job, yup. I have a coworker who monitors any time someone isn’t at their desk and tattles on them if they’re late to work or are in the bathroom too long (management is getting fed up with it and asked her to stop. Now she just sends her complaints to her friends and asks them to make it look like they’re the one complaining). Another coworker who is so angry all the time that we have all been advised to not talk to her unless it’s absolutely necessary. She almost slapped the coworker mentioned above because she interrupted her during a phone call. Another coworker overshares her and her entire family’s medical history. Right now she has chronic diarrhea and she wanted us to know that for god knows why. And lastly, a coworker who keeps getting in trouble for late work who spends most of the day doing crafts and coloring instead of working.

    17. laylaaaaaaaah*

      I just left a workplace where, in my interview, I was told ‘you need to be a drinker to work here’. I thought they meant they went to the pub sometimes.

      They did not go to the pub sometimes.

      Highlights:

      -big area boss was married to one of her subordinates, and would scream and swear at him in front of literally everyone

      -big area boss cultivated an ‘elite group’ of yes-men who could do no wrong.

      -(they did so much wrong, from lying to clients, costing us hundreds if not thousands in revenue, to aggressively hitting on any attractive woman in the office, all the time)

      -big area boss would also invite other managers who were below her over to her house to get drunk with her and stay the night

      -my immediate manager was making up at least half of our P&L figures, which big area boss knew about and tacitly allowed, right up until he pissed her off

      -the office had a 100% year on year turnover rate, with the exception of big area boss and her boys

  8. Purple Puma*

    I’m hoping I can get some other perspectives on this.

    Due to the most recent Nor’easter, our office was closed on Wednesday and opened at 11 a.m. on Thursday. On Thursday, two of my coworkers came in at 11, but also took their regular lunch hour and left at their regular time. Is this normal/acceptable? I chose not to take my lunch hour because since the office opened so late, I didn’t see the point in doing so. (I did leave at my regular time though.)

    For reference, my office pays us (“us” in this case meaning “all of the non-exempt, hourly employees”) for a full day if the office is closed due to snow or if the office opens late/closes early, and it doesn’t come out of our PTO. (You know, that thing that every workplace should do, but that plenty don’t.)

    1. ZSD*

      I certainly think leaving at their normal time on Thursday was reasonable, and expected. Coming in at 11 AM but then leaving at 8 PM would kind of defeat the purpose of the late start, since you’d still end up driving over ice in the dark. So I would certainly still expect people to leave at 5 (or 5:30, whatever your office does) on a day with a late start.
      As to taking the full lunch hour, eh, I think I personally would be inclined to cut mine a bit short on a late-start day, but if they didn’t have a lot on their plates on Thursday, I think what they did is fine.

    2. ThatGirl*

      It’s kind of like a 2 hr delay at school… you still get to leave at the normal time. I don’t see a problem with it.

    3. Purple Puma*

      Sorry, to be clear, I don’t have a problem with leaving at regular time after a delayed start, but it just seems weird to take your lunch hour when you’re already working a shorter day.

      1. Whoa*

        I’m with you on this one. We get “early release” afternoons on various days throughout the year- almost always on the day before a holiday or holiday weekend. Management will release the staff at 1 PM for an extra paid afternoon off, but it’s an unspoken rule that you don’t take an official lunch. But it’s not anything official, just the way our culture handles it…. More like a “Hey, you’re getting this paid time for free without needing to use PTO or make up the hours, so do the right thing and don’t take advantage of the perk.” If it were a similar situation to yours though, we would operate the same way and either take a short lunch (20 minutes, maybe 30 max) or eat at our desks.

        1. Purple Puma*

          See, your work situation is the same as mine! We get paid for a full day despite early releases, and we also get paid for a full day if the office is closed due to snow (or if the building’s power is out, or whathaveyou). Normally on early-release days, we don’t take a lunch for the same reasons you outline. I’m just not sure why it would then be okay to take a lunch on a delayed-opening day.

          1. Dragoning*

            We have to take our lunch during early release days because we can’t act like we’re going home early until we do, in fact, get an email from the director saying to go home.

            1. Whoa*

              Yeah, we always get an advance notice for our early release. Usually 2-3 days, that way everyone can account for their workload, avoid scheduling meetings during that afternoon, etc.

            2. Lia*

              Same here, and about 1/4 the time, we don’t actually get released early, so you can bet we take lunch.

      2. Fiennes*

        People still have to eat. Unless there’s something really time-critical going on at your office that the late start endangered, I can’t see any problem with still taking a lunch break.

        1. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

          I agree with a lunch break, but not the full hour. When I have a shortened day (delayed opening due to weather, early departure for an appointment, whatever), I try to reduce the time I take for a food break.

          1. AMPG*

            Really, though, if you’re not leaving work undone or coworkers in the lurch by taking a full lunch, and company policy allows you to do so, where’s the harm? This seems like a MYOB kind of situation.

      3. Naptime Enthusiast*

        I probably wouldn’t have taken it but I could see that if there isn’t a specific policy saying you can’t, people still will. Is there an issue with required breaks on a regular day that people assumed also applied to a shorter day?

      4. WellRed*

        People still gotta eat. If I ate my breakfast at 8 do you think I should wait till supper to eat again?

        1. Whoa*

          She’s not saying don’t eat, rather the issue is taking the full hour break when you’re already almost half a day off. You still have the option to either pack a lunch to eat at your desk, or take a shortened break to go get food instead of that full hour.

          1. The OG Anonsie*

            But like… Why though. There wasn’t some specific business need for them to not just take the normal lunch schedule that everyone’s used to, so why is it important for them to change it? Some people like their routine, let them have it.

            This really feels like that arbitrary “anything short of the highest possible level of effort at all times is lazy” kind of productivity accounting.

      5. Hangry is A Real Thing*

        Personally, my body runs on a specific schedule. If I don’t eat at certain times of the day, ‘hangry’ is a real issue (thanks to low blood sugar). For a day with a late start, while I might not take a full lunch break, I absolutely have to stop and eat.

        So for me, that doesn’t seem particularly strange especially if they were able to get their work done.

    4. Anonanonanon*

      Just because your office opened late doesn’t mean that no one is entitled to lunch or that they have to stay late unless that is specified. I don’t see a problem with the fact that your coworkers treated it like a normal day unless they ignored some policy or instruction that told them to do something different.

    5. Elizabeth H.*

      Does your workplace have a pretty established (whether by policy or just by culture/practice) of people taking a lunch hour at a specific time and length? We don’t here, people almost always work through lunch or sometimes go out and get something at random times of their own choosing that are typically somewhere around an hour long but maybe less or more. If you have a more established culture where people have a scheduled lunch hour and basically always take lunch, it makes more sense. I agree with you that I’d probably choose not to interrupt my work by going for lunch not very long after arriving there in the first place, but to do so seems more personally weird than weird in terms of work optics.

      1. Purple Puma*

        “Does your workplace have a pretty established (whether by policy or just by culture/practice) of people taking a lunch hour at a specific time and length?”

        Yes and no…the exempt/salaried folks often work through lunch, or when they do go out, there’s no set time/duration. The two coworkers I’m asking about are non-exempt/hourly, as am I. The hourly folks are officially expected to take a one-hour lunch, and it’s an unspoken rule that they take their lunch at the same time every day (or thereabouts), though they can decide what time that should be, to a certain extent. This is so the salaried folks, who depend on the hourly folks for a lot of stuff, know when the hourlies are going to be away from their desks.

        1. zora*

          Yeah, this seems to be the key for me. I would probably do like you and skip the lunch, but if this is normally such a regimented, scheduled thing, I would understand some people doing like a normal day and taking their lunch. And I would try to let it go and not let it bug me. I get that your saying the company is paying them extra, but also, it’s 1 hour. That’s not a lot of money in the big scheme of things, and it’s a rare occurrence.

          This seems to kind of line up with your company culture that it’s sort of expected to be regular, but sort of up to the individual, so it can be up to the individual whether to take their regular lunch or not, and both ways are ok. Making a specific point about telling people NOT to take their lunch would be kind of making a big deal about it, and if these are good employees who do their jobs well the rest of the year, this is the kind of thing a good manager would just be a little flexible on and not worry about.

          1. Luna*

            I’m not sure that the company even is paying them extra. It depends on the place, but at my company when we have a snow day or late opening the hourly employees do not get paid for that.

            I don’t think them taking lunch and leaving at the regular time is anything to be bothered by.

          2. Autumnheart*

            I suspect that if one were to rigidly examine departure times and lunches taken, the overage would be comfortably to the company’s favor and not the employee’s. One hour in the employee’s favor is not going to bankrupt the company or morallly corrupt the employee. I consider it to be pretty petty to hold it against an employee when this is a result of weather conditions in the first place, not a situation created by the employees.

            If a company wants their employees to put in a full 8 during a snowstorm, then create some solid work-from-home functionality and skip the 2-hour drive entirely.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Is it possible they took their lunch at the normal time in order to ensure appropriate coverage? Because it kind of sounds like that.

          I don’t think it’s unreasonable for folks to follow their normal, non-delayed schedule, even when their start time is delayed.

    6. Cookie Monster*

      We had the same situation last Nor’easter, but working remotely on Wednesday. Personally I always take my full lunch break during busy season unless I cannot stay late that day because of plans, because I’d much rather work later and have that time to take a break from work and regain my focus! If they didn’t have a ton on their plates after that, I think it makes sense, especially since it’s not like y’all weren’t getting paid during the late start.

    7. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I personally wouldn’t take lunch if I were already getting a late start, but I know several people that would and I think that’s fine. Some people need to eat at certain times to keep their blood sugar in check, some need to let pets out at certain times, some might have errands that due to the weather they didn’t feel safe running earlier in the day.

    8. Dragoning*

      Eh, I’m only supposed to take my lunch if I work for at least six hours. So, if I left at, say, 6:30 or later on a normal day, then yes, I would still take a half-hour for lunch, since I’d still work for six.

      Other than that, I’m not really approved for them. I expect they’d let me take one anyway if I reported it on my time sheet accurately, but if I came in at 11 I could’ve eaten at home (and I usually start at 7:30, so half my day would already be gone!)

    9. DivineMissL*

      We had the same thing at my office, late opening on Thursday, but everyone is paid from regular start time. The point of the delayed opening is to give people time to shovel the driveway and scrape ice off the car, and for the sun to melt some of the snow on the roads, so everyone can get to work safely. I spent an hour at 6:30 am digging my car out, then getting ready for work and driving in; I still worked 6 hours. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for folks to work most of the day and also be able to eat lunch; shoveling snow is a lot harder work than sitting at my desk!

    10. JR*

      My previous job had a similar policy for office closings related to weather. I would usually work though lunch if the delayed opening was at 10am or later, however some of my coworkers would take a lunch break. My boss never cared either way. I think that is the good thing about having an office with this policy, you can choose whether you want to keep the lunch break or work through it and it shouldn’t matter.

    11. Alton*

      I think it depends on the workplace. I’m non-exempt, and at my workplace it’s explicitly clear that we need to log eight hours in a day, and things like sick leave and office closings count toward those hours. If I don’t log a lunch hour on days when I come in late due to office closings, I’d be into unapproved overtime.

      1. Dragoning*

        Oh, I didn’t consider that. Yeah, if the coworkers are getting paid for the entire day, not including a lunch break would trigger some problems depending the DoL.

    12. Observer*

      Why is this even your concern, though? Did they leave you with work that they should have done? Did it impact your work, the office or your clients?

      1. LurkingAlong*

        I’m also of this opinion and not to be snarky but I really don’t understand the concern. I feel if it were the other way around and these coworkers were working through lunch and staying late nights then this wouldn’t be as much of a problem for you. Since they’re not hourly workers then it’s their work product and being available when they are needed that really matters and not following some arbitrary visibility rules. Is their work usually up to scratch and are they available the hours they’re boss requires? If so, then this should not be a problem at all.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        If there is no written policy/procedure then I would expect many people would take their regular lunch.

        Look at it this way, it was a late start because of a storm. Maybe they got up at their regular time, cleared their cars/driveways and by the time that was done it was time to go to work.

        Employers tend to believe that employees beam themselves to their work places. I remember my husband getting up at 3 am to plow/start cars etc. He was late for work by a half hour. (Work was 50 miles from home.) He boss ordered him to start earlier. So he calmly said, “I started at 3 am. What time would you like me to start?” I told him to call in the next time, take the whole friggin’ day.
        It might be helpful to think of people as doing a full day’s worth of work just to GET to work.

    13. Bea*

      Some ppl are hardwired and they take lunch at 1.30 every day so just because they started at 11 that day, they’re wired to go to lunch that time. So I wouldn’t bother caring if I were you unless it’s strictly forbidden on delayed start to do that.

      I’m the kind of person who doesn’t adhere to a strict structure well. So if I’m coming in at 11, I’m probably going to eat something at my desk or prior to starting so wouldn’t take lunch unless it were slow.

    14. sheep jump death match*

      I’m hourly and if I DIDN’T take a lunch in this situation, I would have to have a Very Serious Meeting with my supervisor about working unauthorized overtime and not adhering to meal break policy correctly. Companies are weird.

    15. Zennish*

      This is totally normal. If the office closes so that you can’t maintain your normal hours, that’s on them… (with a good company, anyway) and you just proceed with the remainder of the day as though you arrived at the regular time.

    17. MissDisplaced*

      I probably would have picked up (or brought) something and eaten at my desk… but I do that every day.
      Is it normal? Well, if you didn’t bring any lunch, I suppose they had to eat right?

  9. Cancer Crush Anon*

    I had a few interviews since last friday. The first was really old-school and felt very conservative and there’s only 1 woman in leadership. I’m really over good ole boys clubs. They liked me enough to send me a personality test to complete. Jesus. It had IQ Test like puzzles to solve and math involved. I was so irritated. If you’re hiring me based on how I do on SAT problems for a creative role, I don’t want to work for you. I just didn’t get a good vibe from the place, and it sounds like I will be working a TON if I go there based on what they told me (no downtime, 30% travel, get interrupted a lot).

    Second job was for a design agency. It was amazing. Great culture, very, very, small (6 people). I could do the work and it would grow my portfolio like no other. Owner was very nice and seems like a cool space. Unfortunately, he told me his top salary range for this role was 42k. I currently make 45k and feel stretched thin with money. With bonuses, I made 55k this year. I’m not sure if I could stretch 42 and a bit longer of a commute. They’ve been apparently working 12 hour days the last two weeks to make deadlines, too.

    I really, really, really, liked them. I sort of told him I was looking more for 50 and he told me to think about it and get back to him with what I would need. I believe him when he says that this is his top range. I’m thinking about emailing him and saying I was looking for 48-50k and see if there’s any room for negotiation there. I could probably swing 45k, since I’m doing it now, but working 12 hours a day and only making what I make now is not very appealing. I need to get out of my current job, but taking a pay cut does not seem to be a good move.

    I’ve heard that agency experience can allow you to work anywhere and makes you more attractive to employers. If I stay there a year or two and really pinch pennies, is it worth it? I’m not sure it is. It gets me out of a terrible environment, but at what cost? I’m sorta bummed because this is the first job I’ve interviewed for that I really felt excited about.

    1. Artemesia*

      But you aren’t doing it now — you are getting an additional 10 in bonuses. If you are just getting by, having to get by on less will get old very fast.

      1. Adlib*

        Agreed. If they want someone of your caliber, and it seemed like a good match for both you and them, they need to up their range. If you already told him you were looking for 50, and he told you to think about it, that’s not a good sign. They need to be willing to accept that good candidates (which it sounds like you are) will walk if the pay doesn’t match up.

        1. Cancer Crush Anon*

          Yes, but the year before that I only got 3k in bonus, so it really depends and is not guaranteed. I also threw all my bonuses at my student loans, which I just paid off this year, so I never really felt that money.

          1. neverjaunty*

            Then the year before it would have been a $6k pay cut and things are already tight for you…. if it’s that great, they should find the money. Don’t trap yourself by rationalizing away being underpaid.

            1. Cancer Crush Anon*

              Don’t trap yourself by rationalizing away being underpaid.

              Yes, you are completely right.

          2. Jules the Third*

            With the loans paid off, you should have a little more room financially, and you might be ok with a delightful job at the same pay. Ask for 50K or 48K plus extra paid vacation, to signal that you are willing to be flexible.

            For a job I loved, I’d probably be ok with 45K (no change in salary) plus some kind of schedule flexibility / extra days off.

            I’d want to check whether the 12hr days are something expected or something that will be improved by your hiring. If that’s expected, and more than your current position, you should hold firm at 50K. 9hr days are no biggie, 12 is a huge deal.

            1. Cancer Crush Anon*

              Yes, I completely agree about the 12 hour days. I got the sense it was unusual, but I will absolutely ask.

    2. ZSD*

      Gosh, that’s a tough situation. Personally, I think that since you’d have a longer commute on top of the pay cut, it’s not worth it. You’d be signing yourself up for two years of maybe stretching to make rent, giving up vacations, etc., in the hopes of it helping you with your next step…which it might not. If you next employer (foolishly) bases salary offers on salary history, then you’d really be hurting yourself.
      So unfortunately, I vote no, even though the opportunity mostly sounds like a great one.

      1. Cancer Crush Anon*

        Yes, this is where my head is. I’m just sad more than anything. I really want to make this work.

        1. MissGirl*

          Don’t let that blind you to the realities. How feasible is it there’s a yet unknown Door 3?

    3. Workerbee*

      I don’t think second job’s owner is going to stretch. When you said: “I sort of told him I was looking more for 50 and he told me to think about it and get back to him with what I would need,” I thought, you ALREADY told him what you would need! The 12 hour days + no bonuses (maybe?) + you’ve been feeling stretched thin for however long = keep looking. You can of course come back with your firm $50k and see what he says. It’s worth the interview experience and knowing what kind of environment you prefer, too.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think you’d just be trading one kind of debilitating stress for another. What’s their PTO like? Can you tap into it immediately? I can maybe see that working for a bit if they had extremely generous PTO that they would actually be okay with you using. That would be critical with your dad’s medical situation. And would 12 hour days be sustainable for any length of time while you’re trying to care for him, too? Are you wanting to be able to see him before/after work at all, or are just weekends workable?

      But don’t discount the money thing. You said you’re running tight at 45k AND BONUSES. Are you even bonus eligible at this smaller place? And if so, do they seem attainable? I wouldn’t go back with 48k. That’s not enough of a difference from 50k to elicit a different response from the hiring manager. The ball’s in his court for him to counteroffer at this point. If you’re really wanting to try to make that amount work do some serious budget forecasting and do it with the taxes and whatnot deducted so you’re working with your take home pay (and with no assumption of bonuses). Do it 12 months out and see if it’s sustainable. When you’re cutting back that much and you’re already close to the line, you have to be really clear on where all your expenses and income are by using hard numbers. Don’t wing it.

      I understand desperately wanting out of where you are now (I really want that for you too), but now is definitely a bad time to compound your stresses by adding more money stress. That will permeate your whole life – not just the work piece, and if your work/life balance is also going to be off-kilter with 12 hour days…..it’s going to be really rough. Don’t be so eager to leave where you currently are that you discount that or forget to do your due-diligence in all the usual ways with this employer. Be really clear eyed about what that trade off will look like for you. If you still think it’s worth it, then you can leave with your plan in place and knowing what you’re in for in the next couple years.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Also – 6 people is really small. Right now the benefits that come with a bigger company could really help you. It may just be that despite how great this other job seems, it’s not right for you RIGHT NOW. You’ve got a lot of balls in the air in your personal life and a small shop just may not be the right fit at the moment, as heartbreaking as that feels.

        And I just re-read about the longer commute. 12 hour days PLUS the the longer commute. Does that mean 13 hours from when you leave the house to when you get back? 14 hours? More? That’s pretty major. That alone would be enough to give me huge reservations without the other factors involved.

        1. Cancer Crush Anon*

          My dad’s care is actually minimal. It turns out he doesn’t need chemo, and he went back to work a few weeks ago because he was bored (lol) so THANKFULLY, that’s no stress for me at this point.

          I think he said 2 weeks after the first year…which I would try to negotiate to start immediately. He said 7 sick days? It’s all combined in one bank I believe. He seemed unsure and would have to consult the manual, which means he probably is lassaiz-faire about vacation.

          The bonuses I have always used towards my student loans, and this round of bonuses completely paid them off, so I never really “had” the bonus in my pocket. The commute would be 30 min vs 15 min, so it’s not terrible but it’s still more mileage on my car.

          He seemed to imply that the 12 hour days is abnormal. He said they were understaffed. I’m not sure. Lots of questions still…

          1. Serin*

            > He seemed unsure and would have to consult the manual, which means he probably is lassaiz-faire about vacation.

            Maybe I’m too cynical, but to me “boss isn’t sure exactly what compensation is in a particular area” reads as “boss wants to be free not to offer very much compensation in a particular area.”

          2. neverjaunty*

            Lots of unknowns. They need to give you details – extrapolating from what they implied or might mean, or what you might negotiate but don’t get have, is not enough information for you to make a decision.

          3. Don't Block the Door*

            If this guy isn’t doing something about the “abnormal” 12-hour days and the understaffing, you might find out that suddenly, it’s going to be the “normal.” Is this really what you want to sign on for?
            I can hear the alarm sirens blaring – heed the warnings.

          4. The Ginger Ginger*

            OH, I’m so glad to hear that about your dad!

            And the rest of that does change the calculation a bit. Still, I agree with other posters that those “abnormal” 12 hour days are pretty worrisome. Is this a new-ish company? Are we looking at a startup mentality here? Did the manager give answers to other questions that seemed like he and the company value actual work life balance – and not just in a lip service way? Is this actually a busy time of year for your industry? Is the role you’re hiring for a replacement for someone who left? Are they hiring to bring down the crazy hours for everyone, or would you be expected to join the insanity? I’ve done sustained 12 hour days, and they’re pretty awful. I burned out really hard, and I dread that for you.

            1. Cancer Crush Anon*

              They’ve been in business for 12 years, which is awhile for a design agency. He said that they have gotten a few new clients recently, which was good because they got more work, but bad because they are understaffed and could use another person. Hence why they are hiring right now. They have only been in 12 hour days for the last two weeks and that’s to finish up on clients stuff.

              12 hour days are not fun. I’ve done them before, but I would then get to leave early on friday or something. I will say that I don’t think he’s nefarious. My best friend’s mom does freelance work through him and has known him since college, so I trust that he’s a good person.

              1. Grumpy*

                The Owner is bluffing.

                I very much doubt the company finances are in such a narrow window where a 45k new hire is essential to keep up with demand but a 52k hire is a reckless extravagance.

                And if they are, how secure is the job?

                1. Cancer Crush Anon*

                  :( That’s disappointing. I felt like he was being genuine…but obviously I’m pretty trusting given what situation I’m involved in now.

    5. The Photographer's Husband*

      If I’m guessing right that you’re in the advertising industry, I can confirm your hunch that sometimes working at a smaller shop that has the ability to grow your portfolio can be very beneficial in the long-run.

      The pay disparity would be hard to overcome, certainly. But I’d also keep in mind that the advertising industry (again, in my personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt) is a little more lenient on the ‘job-hopping’ view of things, so I don’t think you’d need to stay there for too long. I know people who have gone to work for absolute sweat-shops, but 6 months later had put together an incredible portfolio and used that to move somewhere else with higher pay/better hours. I’d also note that it may not be the case that just because they’re working 12-hour days now means that they always do – it makes sense that they’d be burning the candle at both ends to make deadlines, that’s pretty common. When the pressure is off, I bet the work hours are a little more relaxed.

      In any case, I wish you the best of luck.

    6. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I wouldn’t do it. I took a job that on paper was the same pay. However, my last job was just 5 minutes from home and OT was plentiful. Here, I have a 45 minute commute and I work a straight 40/wk. The lack of extra money from OT was a real hit to my budget. I was making an extra $12k/yr in OT and just didn’t realize how much I had come to rely on it. Not to mention the added costs of the commute.

    7. Cancer Crush Anon*

      Oh! I forgot another question I had:

      There’s a job opportunity I’m qualified for where my boss’ daughter works. She has met me a few times, and she would absolutely recognize me if she saw me. I haven’t told my boss I’m looking (though I don’t think she’d be surprised). Her daughter would absolutely tell her mom/my boss that she saw me.

      Should I mention this in a cover letter that I know my boss’ daughter works there and if they could keep it confidential? Should I mention this if I get an onsite interview? Any ideas?

      1. The Photographer's Husband*

        I wouldn’t mention it in a cover letter, it would just distract from you selling yourself there.

        If you get an interview and see the daughter there, perhaps you can greet her and mention off-handedly that her mom doesn’t know you’re job-searching, and you’d appreciate it if she could not mention it.

        Even if daughter does see you and tells her mom, this all seems pretty low-risk to me, because I gather from everything that’s gone on, your boss is highly likely to be understanding of the fact that your job-searching.

        1. The Photographer's Husband*

          Wow, I don’t know what happened with the end of that sentence. My grammar.exe file must have suddenly blue-screened.
          *you’re *job searching

          1. The Ginger Ginger*

            And honestly, you’re boss sounds like she’d be supportive if she did know. I agree, just mention it casually if you see the daughter, but otherwise don’t make it a big deal. And when you do mention it, don’t make it sounds covert or anything. Just pose it as, “I’d prefer my boss hear it from me instead of the grapevine, so I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t mention it to her until I have something concrete to share myself.” That’s a perfectly legitimate request, and it doesn’t make you sound like you’re being sneaky (which you’re not, of course!).

    8. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      This is such a personal matrix of priorities/risk/etc… But I think I would handle it in the following way:

      I think I’d consider making the move to small firm IF they could meet your current salary of 45k. It sounds like it would be a draw compared to your current job (longer commute + potential long days in exchange for a better environment). To me, that would be a reasonable trade off. Then the tie-breaker for me would be the potential to grow your portfolio. I’m excluding the bonuses because you mentioned that you didn’t use them “to get by” on, you only used them to pay off loans.

      Of course there’s other considerations – the main one being – how likely are you to find a reasonable job (maybe not as good culture-wise, but manageable) at the salary that you’re seeking (48-50k)? Is that a bit on the high side for your market/level of experience? If so I’d be more inclined to consider small firm. If not, then I’d be inclined to pass.

      This is definitely a tough one! I hope you are taking it as a positive that you’re being brought back for two jobs – they might not be the right fit, but it’s always nice to know that a potential interviewer wanted to continue with you. At least for me, it gives me more confidence that other potential employers will too.

      Also – solidarity on the not wanting to work somewhere with no/few women in leadership. In my most recent job search that was hard requirement for me. I work in a pretty traditionally male field (it’s changing, but it’s been slow) so that was a big consideration. I didn’t have a hard number (like must have at least 20% of leadership roles being done by women), but if I scrolled the company directory and only saw a sea of white male face, I passed. Just something that I decided to prioritize.

      1. Cancer Crush Anon*

        45k is low. 50 is even a little low. I did research on my current role and I should be around 55k. I am working with a recruiter and she thought 60k felt about right for me….so I am absolutely underpaid right now.

        And yeah, this experience has left me wanting a female friendly employer. I’m tired of being harassed everywhere I work.

        1. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

          Ah – that would definitely be a pretty big factor in my decision making matrix. If 45k is pretty solidly low, then I would probably pass it up.

          Which is a bummer! It sucks when you find a place that *feels* great culture-wise, but some other factor makes it a no-go. Culture can be so tough!

          I really wish you the best! You had two solid roles that wanted to proceed with you (one of which was a full offer). Other employers, who pay more in-line with market rates, will too.

    9. Bea*

      Ask him about how he pictures salary increases in the future.

      I took a 2.5k decrease to escape my hell. And 3 months in, I’m up to just a 1040 decrease with that being fixed within another 6 weeks time. Do they have any bonus structure? Unknowingly I also should bank a big enough bonus I’m ahead of where I was by the year end.

    10. Yorick*

      If you just paid off your student loans, you could take a look at your finances and see if you could make it work. It seems feasible since you said you mostly spent the bonuses on student loans.

      Don’t forget to consider whether the benefits will be better or worse than your current job. That could make the pay cut more or less severe.

      I’d consider a pay cut the job were good, especially since you’re trying to leave your current job.

    11. Hmm*

      Wait, are you the one posting every week about how horrific it is to work with the CEO after he said he has a crush on you? This is really relevant information, getting out of that job environment might be worth a paycut, depending on how hard it has been for you mentally

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Two thoughts:

      Don’t let your desperation to weigh in too heavy here. Let’s say your current job was okay, not great, just okay. Would you take this job with the small place? So remove the desperation from your story line and what do you think you would do?

      The fact that you have had to think about it so long and so deeply is a clue. You know YOU best. Do you have a habit of thinking about things until you sell yourself on them? I have done that especially with jobs. If we have to convince ourselves that New Place is a good deal, it’s probably NOT. So think of the past where you have had similar situations that you tried to weigh things out and tried to convince yourself to do something you were iffy on. How did that play out for you in the long run? If you know you can run at it with everything you have and whip it up into something for yourself, then I would say go for it. But that is not what you are saying here.

    13. I'm keeping the books*

      Put a price on your extra working time, and the extra commuting time. Work out how many extra hours you’d be doing each week, price it all up, and label it ‘BURNOUT’. That’s time that you can’t be doing other things: sleeping, relaxing, socialising, de-stressing, household errands and chores, and visiting with your Dad. At a bare minimum, if you can take time off to do it, actually do the ‘new job’ commute at rush hour one day, and see how long it really takes and how it feels for you.

      An extra 20-30 mins a day can be the difference beween feeling rested vs physically exhausted, and between being able to get home, eat, change, and go to the cinema with friends vs spending evenings alone most nights of the week. Is it worth it?

      Also, the pay cut. If he’s asked you to get back to him, he’s still negotiating. At best, he’s really hoping you’ll take the job because you’re a great hire (You made 10k in bonuses! You’re amazing!), and will turn out to be willing to take you at a wage that matches what you’re worth. Neutral, he’s bluffing, but he will actually come back with a mid-range counter offer if you give him a higher number (you say 50k, he offers 48k, for example). At worst, he’s trying to low-ball you because… actually, who cares? If he’s low-balling you when you’re already underpaid for your current job, and he’s expecting longer hours and higher level responsibilities from you in the new job, that’s really pretty disrespectful of you and your skills.

      I work in finance, and I used to do some payroll. Depending on his position and how the budgets are set up, your potential pay packet could be in direct competition with the hiring manager’s own future pay rise or performance bonus. It’s not the case in every job, but especially in small businesses, it’s frequent enough that you can’t rely on hiring managers to advocate for your best interests.

  10. CrystalMama*

    Hi Commentors, happy Friday everyone! Was it a long week or is that just me lol. I swear some people think money grows on Trees!!
    I have a problem at my workplace which I think a lot of you will be able to help with. I have one colleague (let’s call her Mabel) who I just LOVE to pieces but who always has something to chat about. She is a pleasant lady so there’s none of That going on, but I do have work I need to get done!! My problem is always that I am a Supporter so I have trouble cutting her off or breaking the flow. I am a relationship person so anything that feels like it will jepordize my connection with someone is painful!! Any advice?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Just say “Mabel, I love to chat with you but I really have to get back to this,” and do your work.

      It’s totally fine to set boundaries especially when you DO have work to do.

      1. k.k*

        I would say that, and maybe add “Can we catch up at lunch/break”. That’s only of course if you actually want to finish that conversation.

        1. JR*

          I like this! That way she knows for sure it’s not personal. You really do want to chat, just not at the moment when you are juggling multiple projects and trying to stay focused.

    2. LouiseM*

      CrystalMama, I confess I’m surprised to read that you have coworkers! Based on your username/past posts, I had assumed that you were a SAHM or WFH-type with a blog. Just goes to show that you shouldn’t stereotype based on a small amt of information!

      Usually when this happens to me I let my colleagues know that I’m putting on my headphones to focus on X project. You don’t need to listen to anything if you don’t want to. Good luck!

    3. Rookie Manager*

      I would recommend clear boundaries; I’m on a deadline, lets set up a weekly lunch or daily coffee break. As long as you are genuine in saying you can’t talk right now but… she should be ok.

    5. JR*

      TGIF!!

      The next time you run into Mabel, tell her you are working on something that is seemingly urgent. Maybe you are prepping for a meeting, working on a deadline, or expecting an important call. It’s not technically a lie; you don’t have to be clear that the meeting you are prepping for is next week, or the deadline is next month, or the call is from your mom…

    6. Thlayli*

      I’ll happily chat with anyone. And when I need to get back to work, if there’s no obvious lull in the conversation, ill interrupt their monologue to say “sorry, I really have to get back to work now” or “can I stop you for a second, I’m gonna have to get back to work real soon, can you skip to the end of the story or tell me later?” Or something.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I had a coworker who I loved dearly, I still do but I no longer work with her.
      Chatty Cathy was her name. We shared the workload, if she did not do it that meant I had to do it and visa versa.
      One day I could not take the Chatty Cathy stuff any more.
      I said, “Cath, you know I love ya. But if you do not help me, I will fall over and die. You will have to call the rescue squad.” She knew I was right, our workload was impossible.
      I would suggest a similar idea for your friend. “Cath, you are always a delight to talk with. But I have to get some work done or I will no longer be here for you to talk with at all! They will fire me because my work is not getting done!” If you wanna add something about getting lunch together or grabbing a coffee after work then add that in also.

  11. Susan K*

    I have a shift work job on a team of 12 people. We have about 100 tasks that we have to do on a regular basis (about 40 every day, 30 1-3 times per week, and 30 once per month or less), and they can be categorized as handles, spouts, lids, vessels, and other/miscellaneous. Different people have different preferences, and each person eventually gravitates towards handles, spouts, or lids (vessel work is infrequent and irregular, so no one really specializes in that). Everyone is trained on all 100 tasks, though, and needs to be able to perform any task if necessary, such as when there’s only one person working.

    What’s the best way to distribute work in a situation like this? It’s nice to let everyone do their preferred category most of the time and avoid doing what they don’t like, but then people get out of practice at the things they don’t like. Plus, the way the schedule works, there are different combinations of people each shift, and sometimes there can be, say, three people who like handles, two who like spouts, and nobody who likes lids.

    Right now, the manager usually assigns the work when she’s there, but sometimes she’s not there or she just allows us to decide amongst ourselves. The manager doesn’t seem to have any system for assignments, but usually assigns people to their preferred areas. Some people are more assertive than others about their preferences, which means that, if there’s a conflict, the more domineering people usually get their way and the more cooperative people get stuck with things they don’t like.

    The reason I’m thinking about this is because my manager is considering creating a team lead role, who would be responsible for assigning the work, and I’m going to throw my hat in the ring for it, so I want to be prepared for how to handle it if I get this role. I know I’ll never make everyone happy all of the time, but I’d like to try to make people mostly happy while also being fair and efficient.

    1. An Underemployed Millennial*

      I would let people do what they want most of the time and only schedule them for shifts they don’t like once in a while. I have been in this situation before as an employee and it feels pretty demoralizing when your boss asks and acknowledges your preferences for shifts and then schedules you for shifts you don’t want most of the time anyway. If all the people who like spouts are out a certain day then sure, schedule someone who likes handles, but otherwise let them have their handles when there isn’t a logical reason not to.

      1. Susan K*

        I wouldn’t have any control over the scheduling of the shifts, so I would just have to work with the people who are scheduled on any given day, which might mean that everyone there on a particular shift hates spouts but the spout work still has to be done.

        1. An Underemployed Millennial*

          At that point rotate out who does spouts so that the work is distributed fairly. People will be resentful if they don’t like spouts and have to do it every shift but they notice Jane never has to do them.

      2. Hannah*

        I think I might assign work equally, then allow people to trade if they want to, with the extra requirement that everyone do one of each kind every month, or whatever would make most sense for a time interval. Trades must be mutually agreed upon.

        That way you don’t have to keep track of what everyone likes best, and no one would ever be shut out of a certain kind of work, like if Spouts were universally most popular.

    2. Irene Adler*

      Don’t put too much stock in making people happy. Certainly not at the expense of the company goals.
      As my boss told me years ago, you cannot make anyone happy. It’s just not within your ability to do so.

      Fair and efficient is good.

      Just be ready for a lot of criticism of your decisions. From your reports and your boss. Early on , get boss buy-in/support on how you wish to run things.

      1. Jesca*

        Yes! And get the buy-in from your manager. And also look for ways to show how the new way improved things. Think about what KPIs exist that can show this.

      2. Susan K*

        Yeah, I definitely realize that I can’t make everyone happy. One of the things I’d like to do is distribute the workload more evenly by assigning more to the people who don’t pull their weight, and I’m sure they will be upset about having to cut back on their Facebook time (though I’m hoping it will make the high performers happy because they won’t have to pick up as much slack from the lazy ones). What I am struggling to decide is (if I get this role), should I have a system, or just play it by ear like my manager currently does? Is it worth the extra time to make a system, and can I sustain it? Every time we get a new manager, the new manager tries to plan the assignments in advance, and it never lasts very long because too many emergent things come up unexpectedly, and the manager can’t afford to spend so much time planning out the workload. The manager always ends up going back to making assignments on the spot without any planning or tracking, and I don’t want to have just another failed attempt.

        1. Irene Adler*

          Systems ae good! The more predictability the better. Just don’t let it be so rigid that it cannot accommodate spur of the moment changes.

          You sound like you have good instincts for the role.

        2. TardyTardis*

          Systems are brilliant. I created a system to manage expense reports (they were all manual before that, and it was ghastly, and this was before they all went to Concur), and my system saved my life when the other accounts payable person slid off to a better job a few cubes over, the dirty rat! (still a good friend, but boy did I miss her!). At least it made it clear that with the extra work, I couldn’t possibly do wires (which was a really ugly manual system which I fear they still have there).

          But yes, systems are your friends, because this way even Jane will be cross-trained on lids and make everyone feel you’re being fair.

    3. Jesca*

      This is sort of like a set-up the rest of the employees follow in the department I work in (I have a much different role on the team). What they do now I will say isn’t working from an outsiders prospective. You have one or two people jumping at all the “tickets” and the rest just kind of wait around to see if those people take them. So if I were to run numbers on who has done what, I would speculate that 40% of all work is being completed by one person. That person happens to be the only woman in this role as well. It doesn’t look good at all.

      The system would work much better if it was distributed more fairly. As in, first come first serve in some relative order and depending on the time it takes to complete a certain task. I know people may like to do one thing over another, but generally I think that works better if you just have them assigned to those then and only those. Otherwise, you may run into a situation where one employee is doing all the work while the rest wait, or one employee is doing the least because they *only* take task X.

    4. emm64*

      I used to work in an environment like this, although the tasks were not highly specialized. The manager dealt with this by assigning tasks to employees via a daily schedule. He usually had employees doing multiple types of tasks per day, which might not work as well when the tasks are quite specialized, but it worked well in our context. He also tried to give employees opportunities to do preferred tasks when possible, with the understanding that everyone did have to do less preferred tasks on a fairly regular basis (due to the nature of the work).

      I was a part-time employee and quite young compared to many of my coworkers (it was actually my first job), so that likely influenced my perspective, but I never had a problem with this system. It was also well-established by the time I started working there. I could see where some employees might bristle at a change from full choice to no choice, so this might not be the best solution for your case, but some modification might be helpful.

      1. Aealias*

        Oh, we used to have a system where each of the five daily shifts did different tasks, so your shift hours determined your work for the day. If your people float between shifts, that works really well.

    5. SCAnonibrarian*

      Is there any public system of documentation of who did which if the 100 types of work?

      If so, then tell everyone at the start that they’re expected to be competent and updated with all 100 tasks, and to that point, you expect to see everyone doing each different task at least once a week /2-weeks/month /quarter /whatever. Let them know that they are responsible for this, BUT you’ll be checking the logs to confirm this, and if anyone ‘forgets’ then you’ll assign them shifts with the whatevers that they missed to insure they are up to date. I have a feeling there will be grumbles and a few people will not do
      them all to see if you mean it (or will legit forget) and then you just calmly and routinely schedule them to do what you need them to do, and once they’ve completed their assignments, they can go back to picking their preferences again.

      1. hbc*

        Yes, this. I would also try to work in a flagging system where you could identify their favorite and least favorite tasks. So everyone has to do a minimum of 10 spouts and 10 handles in a month, but on any particular shift where you’ve got two spout haters and one will have to do spouts, you can assign the person who’s been luckier this month about getting the tasks they like.

        1. Susan K*

          You know, I was actually thinking about (if I get this role) sending everyone a survey to identify their favorite and least favorite tasks. Most people not only have preferences in categories, but also individual tasks (e.g., someone may generally prefer handles to spouts, but hate painting handles). But then I worry that this might be making things too complicated. On the other hand, I wonder if it might placate people if I could say, “Ok, I know you hate painting handles, but I’m assigning you to do it today because Amy also hates painting handles, and she has already had to do it twice this month and you haven’t had to do it at all.”

          1. Arjay*

            Is there any room to rotate theless-desirable tasks throughout the shift? So if you have four spout people who all dislike handles, they could do 2 hours each at the handle task (if that makes sense with how lengthy the tasks are themselves). That way they aren’t hating the whole day, the handles do get done, and they all get some practice along the way too.

            It’s like having to cover the reception desk. I might not mind having to do it for an hour at lunchtime, but I don’t want to be stuck there all day long.

          2. Irene Adler*

            Good. Fairness is good. Just don’t let “refereeing” the tasks distract from your overarching goal.

      2. Susan K*

        Yes, everything we do is logged in a database, and I happen to be the administrator of that database, so I can very easily get this information.

        1. changeling*

          Yes, and keep track of who has been doing which task. Also watch out for task switching. We have people that do that that. Not that there is anything wrong with Susie and Mary switching handles and spouts if they both agree, but if that means that Susie hasn’t worked with spouts in years because she always trades, and isn’t keeping up her skills, then it’s a problem.
          We have daily task assignments, and people do tend to gravitate towards their favorite tasks, but I think the most difficult part is keeping track of whose turn it is to do what, for the infrequent stuff, and the universally disliked stuff

    6. Gov doc lib*

      Can you have a rotation of people who get first pick of jobs, say perhaps 20 % of your employees get first choice their tasks on Monday and the rest fill the other tasks from there, a different 20% choose for Tuesday, etc. As for the undesired tasks, just tell them they must have done all choices at least once in a certain time period.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      If you are going to create a rotation for doing the Disliked Tasks, make sure you have the boss’ buy in. If you don’t your rotation won’t stick.

      I had a boss I could not count for backing. Even if she said yes, that sometimes meant no. Here’s what I did:

      1) First and foremost treat everyone with the same level of respect ALWAYS. And treat everyone in a similar manner. In general, do not do something for one person that you would not do for everyone else. This is your foundation and it is important. Don’t skip this step.

      2) Reinforce good choices when you see them. This can be as simple as being overheard saying, “Thanks, Sue, for taking over Disliked Task this week.”

      3) I used to tell the crew, “We need Tasks A, B and C done today. Do I have any volunteers?” No one would answer. I would put a little smile on my face and gently say, “Volunteer or be drafted. We have to get these things done. I know some days I just don’t feel like doing a particular thing but other days are better. If you are having one of those better days, now is a good time to take your turn at it. Then you have done your turn and you are set for a bit.” (Believe it or not this worked. People started volunteering. After I said this I did not have such an issue with getting folks to take their turn.)
      I have also taken a preemptive strike. “Okay today we need to do tasks A, B and C. Bob, Mary and Sue have done these tasks a lot lately, and I would like to see someone else volunteer to take their turn at these things. Do we have any volunteers who are not Bob, Mary and Sue?”(I used this later, because there seemed to be one or two tasks left that just did not get done. So this is how I got everyone on board with doing all the tasks.)

      4) Where time allowed, I found it really helpful if *I* was seen doing the Disliked Task also. People realized that I was taking a turn, too. This helped them to realize it’s not much different than those chores at home we don’t like. We just do them anyway.)

    8. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      Are the tasks dependent on each other? Is there a set amount of each process that you have to do each day? That affects the answer, I think.

  12. PunchDrunk*

    I’ve been working for a toxic boss for several years. It’s a fact that’s well-known across the company, as we have turned over almost my entire department 5 times in the last few years. HR and management don’t seem to want to do anything. 

    I’ve been pretty good at managing her, largely thanks to the advice I’ve read on AAM, and I’m hoping you can help me figure this latest problem out.

    In August, my Mom got sick, and we learned that she has terminal stage 4 pancreatic cancer. Things have been getting pretty steadily worse since the first of the year. My boss is the only one I’ve told, and I only told her because I knew I’d need some additional flexibility as I help care for my dying parent.

    Predictably, my boss has been not-great. Every PTO request meets with an instant no, unless I justify it by telling her exactly why I need it. Even with everything that has been going on, my PTO usage has been far less than my coworkers- I checked the calendars to be sure.

    I have almost 5 weeks of PTO banked, and I’m about to hit my cap. I’m a reliable employee, who always meets or beats her deadlines, and routinely handles more than my own desk. I can’t think of a logical reason she’s so set against me, and I’m really uncomfortable with the amount of very personal information I have to tell her in order to use my time. 

    This week, she told me that I have to apply for FMLA leave, and tell all of my coworkers what’s going on. I’m bewildered, and exhausted. I have an appointment with HR next week, but I can’t see my boss’ angle here. Beneficent has never been her thing, and I’m worried she’s setting me up somehow. Can anyone tell me if I’m opening myself up for trouble by applying for FMLA? Does anyone have any other suggestions? 

    1. Miri*

      What would happen if you started looping in HR on your PTO requests? They’re part of the benefit of your job and your boss should have to justify why you can’t use them instead of you having to justify why you can.

      1. Nonprofit worker*

        Yeah, I would do this too. I had a pretty awful boss who treated me pretty poorly for two years at my company and I kept it to myself mostly. I thought that he was more valuable an employee and was worried that his boss or HR would side with him. When I finally did loop in HR they were really great and validated that the way he was treating me was not okay.

        As an outsider reading your message, it’s not appropriate for him to deny all your requests and it IS time to loop in HR or his boss for support. You can say you need advice for talking to him, maybe coaching and that way they’ll be aware of the situation without you feeling like you are tattling (even though you aren;t anyway).

      2. The OG Anonsie*

        Ehhh as someone who’s a regular FMLA-needer and has dealt with plenty of punitive bosses and crappy HR departments, I honestly wouldn’t. Unless PD’s experience with HR there is that they’re super helpful and accommodating, in most instances they’ll just say that the manager has discretion and back up the boss.

        Since she already knows that their HR department is generally useless, going straight to FMLA and not bringing up the existing dispute is going to be the safest and most effective bet IME.

    2. Anonanonanon*

      I’m so sorry you are going though this. Applying for FMLA sounds reasonable. That way if your request conflicts with someone else’s there is an official justification for why you get precedence. Telling everyone does not sound reasonable to me. You should definitely talk to HR about that and say that you do not want to give specifics to your coworkers. I can see it being helpful to know you have FMLA but there is no benefit to explaining why.

    3. Madeleine Matilda*

      FMLA may actually be a good thing for you as it is protected leave. I would talk with your HR about it. As for telling your co-workers, I don’t understand why that is up to your boss to decide. If you are going to be out for several weeks and they will need to cover for you then you might want to consider telling them that you will be out for a family emergency, but you only should share what you are comfortable sharing.

    4. Jesca*

      I would honestly push back on this very hard. I would start with sitting down with my manager and stating that you have 5 weeks of PTO that seemingly she is not allowing you to use. And then I would ask her why she feels like you cannot use it? Ask her specifics – like if she likes a certain time frame or whatever. If she pushes on you again to use FMLA (which BTW usually requires you to use up all of your PTO time), I would then tell her flat out and politely that you will discuss the FMLA request to HR and that you will of course have to explain to them why you are being asked by your manager to go that route. It is not threatening, but it also lets your manager know that her request to you to use FMLA requires you to give all the information as to why to others.

      Actually, I would go do this now. I am so sorry you are going through this. I have two very close family members dying from cancer right now (grandfather and SIL). You should not have to deal with this ridiculousness from your boss, and I would definitely loop that into the conversation you have with HR.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        FMLA doesn’t require you to use up all your PTO! It depends on the employer’s individual policy. Some employers require you to take your PTO and then unpaid FMLA leave (this is called “consecutive leave”), while others require that you run both concurrently (i.e., your PTO also runs down your FMLA clock).

        I would loop in HR on your PTO requests. Your boss cannot require you to disclose that your mother is dying and you have caretaking responsibilities right now—that is really out of line and, imo, cruel. FMLA intermittent leave may be a good thing in that it’s protected leave, so if she tries to set you up, you may have additional legal recourse. But be cautious and review your company’s FMLA policy.

      2. Observer*

        FMLA doesn’t require you to use your banked time. And technically, the boss can keep her from using her banked time, even though it’s part of her compensation package. FMLA protects her, because they HAVE to let her take it.

    5. SoCalHR*

      Applying for FMLA shouldn’t be inviting trouble, its actually a legal protection to allow you to take time off. Although I agree that if you have sufficient PTO for your requests and you’re not slacking in work, it doesn’t really matter WHY you’re taking time off (although keep in mind that managers can deny PTO requests for business needs, so that is still at her discretion). And there would be no reason to require you “share the specific reason with all your coworkers”. At most saying you have a personal issue to tend to or family demand and you’ll be taking more time off than normal should be sufficient for a team announcement. You’re on the right track with meeting with HR, try not to panic too much until you hear their perspective on it.

      The one negative I can think of with FMLA is maybe your boss is trying to get you in that system to limit the amount of time you can take off to the 12 weeks. But I’d check your handbook on this, specifically, do they make you use all of your PTO before going into unpaid time? or do they require you to use PTO and FMLA concurrently? You may want to address with HR the fact that your boss requires you to give her a reason when you request PTO, is that company policy? (Allison has prior posts on this)

      Toxic bosses suck, but its extra horrible when you’re dealing with personal issues, so I empathize with you on that. Hang in there!

    6. A Person*

      FMLA sounds like exactly what you need in this situation. You can set it up directly through HR, and you don’t have to tell colleagues anything other than you are out on family leave (because that is your status).

      If the boss tries to retailiate against you, that FMLA status gives you legal protection and an opening to go to HR and a lawyer, if needed, with the magic words “FMLA retaliation”.

      1. RobbieNYC*

        I’ve been there… if upper management likes the boss and the boss isn’t an idiot in how they give you grief for FMLA usage, they will get away with a lot. Remember that HR’s job is to protect the company.

        I’m not saying “don’t take it!”, I’m saying “document, document, and document.”

        1. Observer*

          Document your head off. But if HR is competent, then they will know that once you have explicitly asked for FMLA, there is a limit to what they can get away with.

          To the extent that if they try to keep you from applying, push back. And document that they tried to keep you from applying for FMLA. Keeping people from taking FMLA leave is illegal. Also, if you have that on record, it’s going to be much harder to get away with other things.

          1. Clem*

            So here’s my personal story with using FMLA and how my boss used it against me.

            I was in a similar situation as OP was. My dad got ill very suddenly, and I took FMLA to help take care of him. My boss and I never got along, and he told me that I couldn’t tell anyone about going on FMLA or my dad’s health problems. While I was out in FMLA, a bunch of coworkers deleted me or blocked me off Faceboo, so he was telling them something sketchy about me.

            For the first few weeks after I got back, he refused to talk to me. After a few weeks of that, he put me on a PIP set up for me to fail. The PIP didn’t have any quantifiable goals and referenced things which didn’t happen (like “many missed deadlines”. When I asked my boss what those deadlines were because I hadn’t missed anything except when I was on FMLA, he said it looked really bad that I didn’t know). I brought it all to HR under claim of FMLA retaliation, and they insisted that he was a manager in good standing and the investigation didn’t show anything.

            I could’ve brought this to the EEOC or a lawyers but the years of cost and stress it would’ve taken weren’t worth it.

            OP, I still recommend that you take FMLA to be with your mother. Just keep in mind that a reasonably smart manager can cook the books to get back at you for it, and be really proactive about documenting everything. Save old emails and performance reviews, plus any correspondence between you, your boss and HR.

    7. CatCat*

      FMLA will actually give you some protections against any retaliation by your boss so I would definitely go for it.

    8. Ali G*

      I think talking to HR about your options is the best idea here. Your boss doesn’t sound like she has your best interests in mind – she sounds like she’s trying to make this situation best for HER and that means not having to deal with your PTO requests. Typically I think you have to exhaust your PTO before you can take FML, but I could be wrong.
      I would approach your meeting with HR like this: Tell them what is going on, that you are having trouble understanding why your boss needs so much details for using the PTO you’ve earned (hopefully you are at least trying to schedule the PTO in advance/not at times it would be horribly inconvenient for boss – and if so stress that), and then tell them boss said you had to take FML and that you are confused and need guidance on next steps. Hopefully they can help you resolve this and you can stop stressing about this and instead focus on your mom.
      As for telling everyone why you are taking leave, that’s not your boss’s call. You may need to say something though, so just have something prepared, like I have a personal issue that is requiring me to be out of state for a little while and so I need to take a leave of absence.
      Good luck to you. I’ve had a horrible boss in the past and this must make everything with your mom so much harder. Take care of yourself too!

    9. Jadelyn*

      Honestly, I would’ve suggested that you take FMLA sooner than this anyway. If she’s trying to set you up by having you go on FMLA, she’s an idiot, since FMLA specifically protects you from her doing anything to you on the basis of your taking PTO for FMLA purposes. My guess would be rather that someone in HR or someone above her found out from her and told her she needed to have you apply for FMLA, and the drive to get you on FMLA is coming from beyond her, since she doesn’t seem like the type to care otherwise.

      I’m sure you know this, but I’m just going to stress that applying for FMLA doesn’t mean you have to tell anyone aside from HR, and that only because they have to have the paperwork for it. I don’t believe she can force you to disclose the nature of your leave to anyone.

    10. PunchDrunk*

      Hi Everyone,

      Thanks for all of the info and advice. Dealing with my boss tends to feel like playing chess against a really erratic opponent on the best of days. Dealing with her now is exhausting beyond words, and I’m concerned that I’m missing something.

      The other week, she told me that I wouldn’t be allowed to take any time off, including already scheduled time, until I completed a project that wasn’t scheduled to be finished until May. I’ve been working overtime like mad, and finished it this week, but needed a day to catch up on all of the things I’d neglected or rescheduled because of it. That request is what triggered this latest thing.

      I feel like I should discuss all of this with HR, but we’ve all learned not to expect much help from that department. I don’t want to open myself up to more retaliation if HR gets back to her with what I’ve said.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Does it make sense to leave? Your boss sounds like a workplace terrorist, and this whole situation sounds awful. I’m really sorry that you’re going through this, especially at such a difficult time. :(

        1. PunchDrunk*

          I was working on leaving before Mom got sick, but the job search wasn’t going well. Since then, it’s just been too much.

          I was planning to start a certification program, and will probably do that after. The doctors think Mom only has a few months left. My FOF would probably keep me for 4-5 months, I really don’t want that stress right now. I just need to hang on.

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Totally understandable—I don’t know that I’d be able to job search and balance everything on your plate right now. I’m really sorry this is happening :( There are not enough warm thoughts to send your way, nor enough angry imps to send your boss’s way, over this situation.

      2. Jules the Third*

        So sorry about your mom. Hugs if you want them.

        On the Sucky Boss: Document document document… Be consistent with boundaries without challenging her directly.

        Make sure all your PTO requests are in writing, so that you can demonstrate her immediate ‘no’ response, absurd requests (a month+ early?!), and intrusive questioning.
        Check your company’s PTO policy, and learn the terminology is in the handbook. Don’t be explicit when you’re discussing it (eg, don’t say ‘company policy says this’), just use the terms from the company policy. This lays the groundwork, because she will recognize the terms, but it doesn’t challenge her directly.
        Have a 1-1 with her where you say, ‘Can you make sure you assess the business needs before you review my PTO requests? I’ve noticed a lot of denials on my PTO requests that are reversed after you check the business needs, and I’d like us to get more efficient about it.”
        If she pushes further, or asks why you are requesting, the answer is: “PTO is a part of my compensation package from the company. The company includes this because they understand that employees need breaks. I know you understand that, O Competent Manager, I just want to address an inefficiency.”
        Try not to discuss your mom, and avoid framing it as ‘PTO to care for your mom.’ Up until you use all your PTO, it is none of her business what you use the PTO for. Maybe mention that you will be signing up for FMLA after your PTO is used. PTO is a benefit of your job, you shouldn’t need to FMLA (and risk using up your FMLA days with PTO.)
        Follow up with an email thanking her for the conversation, repeating whatever resolution you got.
        When asking for specific PTO, if she continues to resist, push back gently and consistently, every time – put the ball back in her court with ‘Is there a business reason why you are denying / delaying this request?’ (assuming ‘PTO will be approved unless there’s a business reason’; substitute whatever’s in the handbook for ‘business reason’ as needed.)

        Good luck.

      3. The OG Anonsie*

        You’re protecting yourself by applying for FMLA, so do it ASAP. Like pull the paperwork and try to get moving on it as soon as you possibly can, because once you’re covered by that she won’t be allowed to pull literally any of the things she’s pulling right now. Don’t even loop her in on the fact that you’re doing it until it’s done, so there’s no way she can try to disrupt it. You’re right to be wary that HR isn’t necessarily looking out for you, for sure, but if you just quietly get in your documents and everything they will typically just handle it and not start any weird trouble.

        Two things this will get you that are important: 1) She won’t be able to play games with approving your leave, and 2) She won’t be able to require you to tell her or your colleagues personal details about why you need the leave. It also protects you from her overtly retaliating, although I’m sure you’re aware of all the ways it’s possible for her to skirt that, it at least puts up a partial barrier.

        I’m sorry about your mom and I’m sorry you have to work with a total fuckhead at the same time.

    11. Observer*

      Actually, if you apply for FMLA, you’ll be in a better place because she HAS to grant you that leave once it’s set up. And you do NOT have to tell anyone else (outside of HR, of course) what is going on. And if SHE decides to tell the world or punish you somehow, that’s retaliation with is illegal – and opens up the company to legal issues. So, if HR is in the least bit competent, this is one thing they will handle reasonably. Not because they understand management, but because “lawsuit” is something that most barely competent HR departments do get.

    12. foolofgrace*

      It seems to me that overlapping your PTO and FMLA is not a good deal for you. If you can take the PTO first (and I don’t see how your boss can prevent that, talk to HR), then take FMLA, you get a total of nearly 17 weeks off. If you overlap them, you get a max of 12. It’s just math. Talk to HR about your boss prohibiting you from taking your PTO. Sorry for your hardships and best of luck to you, keep pus posted please.

      2. Natalie*

        If you can take the PTO first (and I don’t see how your boss can prevent that, talk to HR), then take FMLA,

        They can absolutely prevent it, as your employer can require you to take your time off as FMLA leave. You don’t have any legal entitlement to protect your PTO.

    13. Bea*

      You don’t have to tell everyone else your situation except for HR. They are the only ones who need this information. Your boss is a scumbag.

      I’m so sorry you’re faced with this difficult personal time and have a nasty boss to deal with. You deserve better. When my dad was ill my mom’s boss bent over backwards and when she took FLMA to leave for 3 months, they did everything to keep her after the mandated 12 weeks were over. So srsly your boss is gross and I’m sickened by it.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      A toxic boss like this? Yeah, she is setting you up for “The Treatment”. It could look like this, “OP, left us in a lurch to take vacation time, something about her parent dying? I dunno. However,I told her I would make sure she did not get paid for her extended vacation.” (This is to scare the crap out of your coworkers and keep them in line by bending their minds even more.)
      For you, it will look more like, “I have to take you off of Desirable Task/Project because you are just not reliable. Look at what you have done to this company. It’s a mess. I don’t think you can salvage your reputation after this fiasco. You know that no one else any where is going to hire you after all the time you have taken here.”(This is to scare the crap out of you and keep you in line by bending your mind even more.)

      Been there, seen it.

      If you can afford to quit the job, then give your notice and quit. No job is worth this crap. None. This boss is out beyond toxic, when people don’t care about dying parents that is the end of the road.

      In my experience, the behavior stemmed from the idea that the boss thought the employee would get a substantial inheritance once Parent passed and leave the company because of new financial security.

      As far as your coworkers, if you must notify them realize that you can notify them and instruct them all in the same email. This could go like this, “Boss wants me to tell you guys that I will be out for a while because my father is gravely ill. I understand some of you will be absorbing my work and I want you to know I truly appreciate that. Please also understand that this is nothing I wish to discuss in detail as my time at work is my downtime, my break from my personal life. Thanks, everyone.”

  13. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Another heads-up today that comments may take longer to come out of moderation than usual but I’ll release them as soon I have a chance. (I’m on the final day of recording the audiobook version of my book, so I’m in a recording studio all day with limited breaks.)

    Don’t panic if you don’t see your comment (and please don’t repost it since then we end up with multiples of the same comment). Thanks!

    1. hermit crab*

      That’s so exciting – good luck with the audiobook recording! I can’t wait to listen to it.

  14. Pickles*

    Just wanted to post a follow-up on a question I posted last week! The original question was–

    Got a question I was hoping you guys could help me with, not an imminent problem but something I want to work out a plan for in advance when it inevitably will arise.

    There is a guy who sexually assaulted me, and later plain assaulted-assaulted me. From the look on his face, I have no doubt that he would kill me if it was advantageous for him and he knew he could get away with it. I reported these assaults to our organization at the time, which did nothing. I didn’t involve law enforcement because I didn’t think they’d do anything, and because I thought it would provoke him into assaulting me again.

    We’ve both since moved on and have reached very prestigious positions in our careers, the sort where we both now fly all over the country to give presentations. What do I do if I get invited to give a presentation in his city or at his organization, or vice versa? It would be a serious threat to my life to be in the same location as him. If I’m aware and alert and around people I would be fine, but it would only take one moment where I let my guard down when I’m somewhere alone for something really, really bad to happen.

    If he comes here, do I see if my employer will hire a bodyguard for me, or do I leave town for a few days until he clears out? What do I tell my employer? And if I get invited to give a talk where he is, do I ask the people inviting me if they’ll hire a bodyguard for me, or do I turn them down, and what do I say?
    —-
    A lot of people suggested informing building/hotel security not to let him in. Unfortunately, this isn’t an option because there *is* no building security. The nature of my work requires that anyone off the street can walk in and meet me in my office, and state law specifies that they can even do so carrying a loaded gun.

    Any other ideas?

    2. Susan K*

      This must be very frightening for you. I would really urge you to look into getting a restraining order so you can call the police at the first sign of trouble from him. If you’re not willing to go to the police, there’s not much you can do. It’s highly unlikely that your employer will pay for a bodyguard for you, especially if you haven’t taken any steps for your own protection such as going to the police or getting a restraining order. Going to the police might also help to show him that he can’t get away with hurting you because if you are harmed, he will be the prime suspect.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        This is your best bet. Depending on your state (I’m going to speak of my own experience), you’re going to have to show a preponderance of evidence to prove to the judge why you need a protective order/restraining order; a police report would be very helpful in that situation. Having that handy sheet of paper doesn’t do much other than allow you to call the police and have him removed. Like Susan said, he would also become the prime suspect should any future events occur.

      2. neverjaunty*

        It’s absolutely untrue that there’s not much anyone can do absent a restraining order – especially since she might not be able to get one given the passage of time. (And then what does that signal to him? That he got away with it.)

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I read Susan to be saying it’s difficult to receive physical protection if you’re not willing to go to the police (not that you must have a restraining order).

          But I agree that there are other things that can and should be put in place that don’t require going to the police. Both your employer and event organizers should attempt to help protect you, Pickles, because if nothing else, it’s a massive legal liability if you disclose your concerns/request and they don’t assist you.

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Seconded. States will often respect a protective order from another state, and this would give you the most legal coverage. It may also persuade hotels, building security, etc., to keep him far from you to avoid having to deal with police coming over to enforce the PO if he threatens you or gets too close.

        This sounds scary—I’m so sorry.

    3. Forking Great Username*

      I don’t think asking your work to hire a bodyguard is reasonable, unfortunately. Have you considered carrying around mace or something along those lines in case it ever becomes necessary for self defense?

      I’m also an assault/sexual assault survivor, and of course you don’t owe us any details here, but have you talked to a therapist or someone about all of this? Based on your previous post and this one, it seems like this is something you’re frequently thinking about, and I wasn’t sure if there was reason to believe he would be aware of your travel and whereabouts and actually go to the trouble of tracking you down. Is that how those situations occurred in the past, or did he threaten that?

      The only other thing that comes to mind is telling your job that it’s unsafe for you to travel to X area due to personal circumstances. But if he’s in your area? With no building security, at that point you need to talk to law enforcement and get their advice. I know you don’t wish to do that, but its just very outside of most professional norms to ask work to hire a bodyguard.

      1. Forking Great Username*

        Also, I want to clarify that I’m more talking about just being in the same city as him – clearly it would be different if it was actually at one of your organizations!

    4. Lora*

      If I was invited to give a presentation where someone assaulted me, I would turn it down and be extremely clear to the conference organizers about why and what measures would need to be in place before I’d feel comfortable giving it.

      “Dear Conference Organizers:

      Thank you for the invitation to speak at MegaConference with Mr SpaceyWeinstein. Unfortunately on Date, I was sexually assaulted by Mr SpaceyWeinstein. I’m sure you will understand why I am unable to present at the same conference as him. I would be delighted to present at any other venues where Mr SpaceyWeinstein will not be present, of course, and I appreciate your consideration.

      Regards,
      Pickles”

      It doesn’t actually matter if there is no building security in a hotel or whatever. That can be arranged, there are TONS AND TONS of private security available for hire for small short term things. Hotels do that stuff all the time for celebrities and whatnot.

      If his organization asks you and you have to tell them why you won’t do it…sucks to be him.

      2. Specialk9*

        Lora, would you really? Have you ever had someone you thought would kill you, literally?

        Is there someone who you’re always scanning crowds for fearfully?

        Have you planned out how you’ll step in front of, or away from, people to protect them from bullets or knives?

        I have, and I would NEVER put that target back on me, by getting him fired and shamed publicly. At this point, OP is likely only one of many people he’s done this to (because dogs don’t change their spots), and there’s a good chance she’s not high on his radar.

        Your advice is great Internet stranger advice, but I can’t imagine following it.

        2. Lora*

          Yes. Sexually assaulted twice, once as a child and once as a teen. Ex was abusive, both physically and mentally, and had lots of guns although I’m told his lawyer convinced him to get rid of them. Thanks for asking.

          I’ve never been anything less than forthcoming about why I will not associate with those people, in the event that someone asks (thankfully it’s rare but it occasionally happens).

          OP is likely one of many he’s done it to, I agree. How are you going to find strength in numbers otherwise though? Start a Google Doc ? I’m serious, if there’s not a Google doc of Crappy Men In Your Field, start one. Only the OP can judge what is safe and what will bring his wrath down on her, but I personally found that most people were helpful – they’d seen enough crap themselves to know that there are monsters in the world.

          1. fposte*

            I also think that different people take different approaches in response to this kind of threat, and I think both the strong defense and strong offense approaches are legitimate choices–you make the one that works best for you and your own circumstances, and you can change over time if you want, too.

            1. orchidsandtea*

              fposte, I consistently admire your balanced and insightful advice–here particularly.

    5. Opalescent Tree Shark*

      Unfortunately, I don’t have a lot of faith either in the police or restraining orders. I would say that if you get invited to do a presentation where he is, turn it down.

      If he comes to you, I think that kind of depends on the relationship you have with your manager. If you trust them, I would have a discussion with them. Just lay out the facts that this is a person who has previously assaulted you on more than one occasion and threatened your life and that you absolutely do not feel safe around them. You can discuss with them what options are and aren’t feasible on their end.

      I would also seek out a victim advocate, maybe even before you talk to your manager. They may have a better idea of what your options are and how to stay safe. Just search your state and victim advocate and services should come up. My husband is a victim advocate and in my obviously biased opinion they are wonderful and super helpful.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I wouldn’t turn the opportunities down without disclosing why (see Lora’s script). Giving presentations is often seen as a sign that someone is a leader in their profession, and Pickles should not have to sacrifice career-building opportunities because of him. Many organizers do this badly, but some will disinvite the assailant if another presenter raises the issue.

      2. MechanicalPencil*

        Seconding the helpful nature of victim advocates. Having mine help me through a swath of paperwork is probably one of the few things that made me actually proceed with a few items. Mine is attached to my local police department and contacted me after I filed a report, otherwise I probably never would have done it on my own or known about half of the resources I’ve now tapped into.

        1. Lora*

          Yes, thirding the recommendation for a victim advocate. I had one from the local DA’s office and she was super helpful and understanding, even though I ended up not following up on charges – she was able to get together a lot of paperwork for me because the criminal proceedings would have been nightmare fuel, but there was enough documented evidence to get a very nice $ettlement in a civil case.

          Plus, Pickles is a leader now. God knows I’ve done this as needed:
          Colleague: Hey, Famousdude is looking for someone to collaborate on–
          Me: Nope.
          Colleague: But it’s Famousdude!
          Me: You collaborate with him then. (meaningful glare) Famousdude is a gotdamn pervert.
          Colleague: He is?
          Me: Yup. He’s a boob man. And that’s all I’m saying.

          You don’t need to give details. Just stating facts: he’s done bad things and needs to stay away from you. Ideally other human beings too, but staying away from you is the bare minimum.

          I mean, what’s your other option, poison his coffee at the conference?
          (don’t poison him)
          (well maybe poison him)

      3. Jules the Third*

        +1 to a victim advocate.

        My experience has been that POs are not incredibly useful, but they do serve as documentation, and documentation that demonstrates a certain level of commitment and sincerity. I think you’d have a tougher road to hoe if you started sending letters that said, ‘X assaulted me’ without a police report and PO.

        Not that he hasn’t made the road tough already, just that documentation helps get the audience on your side.

        2. Susan K*

          Yes, exactly. I’m sure this guy will deny all the accusations and maybe even accuse Pickles of slandering him by telling event organizers he assaulted her. If this guy is equally (or more) prominent in the field, event organizers are probably going to be reluctant to treat him like a criminal based solely on Pickles’ word, especially if he comes up with a story about why Pickles has a personal vendetta against him and *he’s* the victim here. While a police report and PO are also based on the victim’s word, I suspect the documentation would give Pickles’ concerns more credibility.

          A PO itself won’t stop the guy from harming Pickles, but it would allow her to have him arrested if, say, he shows up at her workplace or an event where she’s speaking.

    6. Observer*

      Firstly, go to the police. It doens’t matter how long ago it was. Hopefully they will be helpful. But even if they aren’t, it’s something that will put you in a better position to advocate for yourself.

      Secondly, find a Victim advocate. Perhaps, even do that before you go to the police – get their help in reporting it. If the advocate is any good they will be the best person to figure out what your options are to stay safe.

    7. Specialk9*

      It sounds like you’re saying this scary man is in a different city and a different company. You are worried that you will be hired to speak in his city or company. You are worried of him coming after you if you report him to his company or to the police.

      So tell your company that you will not speak at Acme Inc, or in Anytown USA. (Don’t ask – if asked why you can say you were repeatedly attacked by an individual who lives/works there.) That’s a clear bright line that you get to make and defend with the ferocity of a Mama Bear. And in the age of MeToo, I can’t imagine that much pushback.

      That said, it sounds like you know your own workplace and its lack of protections, but on travel, I’m not sure your belief that there is no protection available is correct for other companies than your own. Lots of companies have (esp the big ones) routine protection for assault / domestic assault. At my company we do a whole host of things, and it’s basically a low key conversation with Security (you provide a photo or restraining order and ask for a reserved close parking spot, and/or guard escort to the car).

      I understand not wanting to go after someone so scary. I have two people who if I saw them in my space, I’d be convinced I was about to die. I also wouldn’t go after them legally or try to report them to their company.

    8. WorkingOnIt*

      It seems like it would be a good idea for you to seek independent legal advice, someone who would be able to walk you through what your options might be. I feel like meeting someone in real life would be more effective, where you can clearly explain what happened, your concerns, and they can support you.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Good managers know how to start to handle these things. They know what guidelines are in place and/or they know who do bring into the discussion. If you have a good boss, then loop the boss in. If not perhaps seek out an HR person who has a good rep in your company.

      Remember the only discussion is keeping YOU safe. The goal of talking these folks is not to build a legal case. This is important to hang on to what the goal is here. As you talk with other well chosen people you will see their sense of outrage build. You may need to remind them that the focus of the conversation is keeping YOU safe, and the focus is NOT about righting past wrongs. The latter would be a separate activity.

    10. Anonymous Ampersand*

      If I was in your shoes I would talk to a domestic violence team.
      Also pick up a copy of the gift of fear if you haven’t before.
      I’m sorry this is something you have to think about :(

  15. Llama Wrangler*

    I am a finalist for a position where the majority of the work is remote. What questions do you think I should ask about the setup and expectations for the work before committing? (There’s been a lot of questions and discussion about work from home; I didn’t see this question asked before but apologies if I missed it.)

    As context, I have always worked traditional office jobs before. My current position allows us to work from home occasionally, which I do particularly when I have a big project that I need to focus on but my home is not set up for regular remote work, nor do I think it could comfortably set up for it (I live in a small apartment and have nowhere to put a desk, nor any space for any kind of regular office setup). This position involves a lot of travel to sites and there’s a coworking space possibly available for our use in my city. The things I’m wondering about are: what technology they give us (laptop? hotspot? cell phone?) and whether it’s okay to use the coworking space as our office on any days we’re not traveling, but I don’t know what’s appropriate to ask about, and I also wonder whether there are important questions that I’m missing.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      If using a coworking space is ok, ask them if they would pay for it (or at least part of it). They likely won’t, but you won’t know unless you put that on the table.

      1. Adlib*

        Agree with this! I’ve visited/used many coworking sites in my city, and they are wonderful – not quite a typical office but not as casual as home. It’s nice to have somewhere to go that isn’t home.

        I would ask about anything you are genuinely wanting to know. I don’t think there’s an inappropriate thing to ask when you are not familiar with the ins and outs of regular remote work. Good luck, and I hope it works out!

    2. Red Reader*

      What are their requirements for work from home? My org requires that I have a space in a separate room (but no door required), a fire extinguisher in the room, appropriate homeowner/renter insurance to cover my work-provided equipment, that I am not permitted to connect a printer to my work machine, and that I cannot be the primary caretaker for a child under 12 while on the clock. (Oh, and that I have to have high speed cable or DSL internet, no dialup.)

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Wow, yes that is much more formal than the sense I got from them, but it’s worth asking those questions.

        1. Ali G*

          Thanks for asking this! I am in a similar position, so looking for answers too. I would add asking about reimbursements for office supplies (printer ink, paper, etc. and other stuff that would normally be freely available at an office).
          Also be sure to ask yourself if you would like to work from home. I’m pretty good with it, but it does take some restraint to not do your laundry, or take a long lunch break, or get wrapped up in personal stuff because it’s all so accessible. So make sure you can handle being at home without “being at home” if that makes sense.

          1. Llama Wrangler*

            Yes, Ali, the question about whether I’m okay not “being at home” is a good one, especially because my apartment is so small I’ll have a hard time finding a physical separation of space.

        1. Red Reader*

          I work with medical records, so they specifically don’t want us printing off anything that even might have patient information on it offsite, and we’re a largely paperless system anyway. A couple of times a year I email myself a training certificate to print and file, but that’s about it. Anybody who has to print documentation for work reasons is required to do so at a printer onsite.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I would ask about:
      -work laptop/accessories (mouse, lock for laptop, bag, etc.) – will all that be reimbursed
      – high-speed internet (at home) if you think that could work (but it sounds like not) or cover cost of hotspot
      – can they set up a VPN if you need to work at a coworking space or some place similar (another option might be a library, if you have on near by. The one in my town is actually quite quiet, so I often go there when I am job searching or even when I work remotely)
      – cover cost of work cell phone
      – I assume you will be reimbursed (mileage/flight) to travel to sites; not sure if you could get reimubrsement to go to coworking space (though you could ask about co-working space being covered, but I’m not sure)
      – expectations/communication styles with remote co-workers/bosses
      – oversight/management from remote bosses (I work remotely and have to write a pages-long report every week about what I did; my mom’s husband only works remotely a few times a month but has to do the same thing too)

      1. Emmie*

        To this comment and Red Reader’s comment: What kind of net speed is required? Is it available in your area, or with your provider? Also, think about your back up net plan. Having your net go out is like having your car break down in a sense. It’s good to have a plan B – especially if live in an area where net goes down periodically. (I don’t have this issue, but some may.)

    4. Emmie*

      * Ask about the hours, and which time zone your schedule must align.
      * What percentage of the workers are remote? Lower numbers would trigger additional questions about how they manage the position, and whether this is a new remote position.
      * What is the management style with the director’s remote employees?
      * How much do you need to travel? Where to? How much notice do you receive for travel requests?
      * Who provides your office supplies? Laptop, etc…
      * Are you an employee, or an independent contractor?
      * Do not overestimate the tax write offs you’ll receive as a WFH employee. Sometimes remote work is code for the company will pay you less because you don’t have the traditional commuting and in office requests. But, you’ll have extra expenses for electricity, gas, and even bathroom tissue. You may also spend more getting social interaction too.

    5. Llama Wrangler*

      Thanks for everyone’s responses! Because the majority (but not all) of the travel will be to various sites in my city, the costs will not be that much different from what I would incur if I were going to and from an office every day. Reading through all of these answers is making me realize that I likely would just want to work out of the coworking space they are already members of on a regular basis, so I think I should ensure that is okay. In any case, there is still the question of supplies like laptop, cell phone, and hotspot for when I’m off site. And if they’re not willing to let me work at the coworking space most days, then I’d need to figure out what makes sense. (could I work in the lounge in my building? is it enough of a pay bump to cover if I want to work in coffee shops or other coworking spaces?)

      1. foolofgrace*

        I worked remotely for two different companies and all I got was a laptop and carrying case. No reimbursement for anything else, everything was on me to provide. But I didn’t care, I loved it, and yes I would throw in a load of wash now and then (but not fold or put away, just throw in the machines). I suggest that you be very attentive to being available on whatever IM system they use — it looks very bad to disappear without putting up a notice as to how long you’ll be gone. Good luck.

        1. Red Reader*

          Same, my office doesn’t provide any office supplies at all, just my laptop/docking station, monitor, and they’d have given me a keyboard and mouse but I preferred to get my own. But the only things I’ve needed to supply myself in the last three and a half years have been pens (which I have a zillion of anyway) and I think I’m on my second pad of sticky notes. Because I lost the first one when I rearranged my office.

  16. It's bananas*

    Are some people just jealous when you take a day off and they have to be at work? I’ve been at my job for almost a year, but when I’ve been sick or have taken PTO, they seem to get hostile towards me. The woman I work directly with (not my boss, but senior to me), acts like she doesn’t believe me when I’m sick or out. It’s okay for HER to take a day, but no one else. She even lied once and told everyone she had a doctor’s appointment and the next day talked about how she got her hair done and then looked like, “oops!” because it was obvious she lied.

    I don’t get it! I have the time- what’s the problem?

    1. The Original Flavored K*

      Sounds like pretty much exactly what you described. Some people just get bitter and resentful over people using the time.

    2. Lynca*

      There’s not one. That’s just how some people (weirdly) are. I still get comments about using time. I get comments about not taking enough time.

    3. An Underemployed Millennial*

      They might be jealous, they might already feel overwhelmed and resentful that they have to do extra work on days that other people are off. It’s not your problem though, you have the right to use your benefits.

    4. Natalie*

      I don’t know if it’s people so much as it’s clearly that person. She sounds like she kind of sucks! I would just try my best to ignore her.

    5. Madeleine Matilda*

      If your coworker abuses her leave, perhaps she assumes everyone else does as well. Or she could think you take too much time off for what she considers unnecessary reasons (not that it is her business why you take time off).

    6. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      You already know she lies about why she takes time off. I’d assume she thinks everyone else is lying too. I wouldn’t worry about it. PTO is there for you to use. You don’t need to justify it to anyone.

    7. EB*

      I have a coworker that works 7 days a week. It’s essentially her choice to do that, even though she doesn’t see it that way. She socializes a lot during the day so she needs to put in extra time to get her work done. She REALLY cannot handle it when I take a whole day off– constantly asking me if I’m sure I can get all my work done. It’s tempting to point out her shortcomings but I’m always polite about it. Plus she DOES get her work done on time so it’s not my place to say anything!

    8. Lumen*

      The problem is that she sucks, which isn’t your problem.

      Though to dig a little deeper: this coworker clearly lies about her reasons for taking time off, so she thinks everyone else does, too. And while she can justify HER lies so that she isn’t doing a bad thing, she is not interested in there being any justification for YOUR lies (remember: in her reality, everyone is lying).

      Things she cannot tolerate: realizing that most people aren’t lying about their time off (which means she’s doing a bad thing, and then comes the shame). Realizing that she needs to stop lying about her time time (“but I don’t waaannaaaaa”). Accepting that other people’s time off is none of her business (deep fear of losing imaginary control + her backup for ‘it’s okay when I lie because everyone else is lying’). Probably plenty of other things, too.

      But yes, same story: she sucks and it’s not your problem.

    9. Menacia*

      Just ignore the way she acts, it’s none of her business why you were out, you have the time, you took it, end of story. Some people just like being nosy PITAs, you just need to pick up the all essential “I don’t care what you think.” skill.

    10. Bridgette*

      Whenever I schedule a day off, my counterpart will immediately schedule herself to be off the day before or after. She got mad when I reached my 10 year mark and got 4 weeks of vacation.

    11. LDP*

      I haven’t been at my job long, but both times I’ve taken sick days at this job my boss has made comments that I was either taking the time off to go get drunk or that it was my own fault that I was sick because I had been “making out with too many guys”. I’ve never talked about my drinking or dating habits with her, so I have no idea where she gets it from. I’m assuming she’s projecting.

  17. The Original Flavored K*

    How do people remain professional and pleasant when they’re running on a nasty sleep debt? I haven’t slept well in weeks, and got almost none last night. I’m headachey and my go-to solution is to consider setting things on fire, but I have to deal with insurance reps without rage monstering.

    Anybody have any tips?

    1. CTT*

      Eep! I hope your sleep cycle gets better. When I’m in situations like that, I try to always take as much time as I can before responding to something (so, a second or two if face-to-face or on the phone, a minute if it’s an email). That way I’m not running the risk of unjustifiably snapping at someone.

      1. Earthwalker*

        Me too. If I felt really intense about what I was writing (particularly if I found myself editing and re-editing what should have been a quick note, aiming for a precise level of snark) I would get it perfect and then mail it to myself. Then I’d let it sit unopened for as long as possible. On rare occasions I’d forward it out of my inbox the next day, but usually I’d read, shudder, and delete. Also on really sleepless days I’d reorganize my schedule so that difficult tasks were put off and stick as much as possible to work that I couldn’t make a mess of.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m assuming you can’t take a sick day? Because that would be my first advice. But beyond that, drink a lot of water, try to avoid too much caffeine, make sure you get up and take breaks (all that water will help). Take a deep breath if you start to get rage-y. Write everything down, because in your current state, you might forget something.

      But seriously, if it’s all possible, go home. That kind of sleep deprivation is never good, and coupled with a headache, it just sounds like a recipe for a miserable disaster. If you can’t function, then your work will suffer and you’ll end up doing everything again anyway.

      1. The Original Flavored K*

        Fortunately, I’m part-time, so I’ve just gotta make it through four hours. Thanks for the tip about the water, though.

        1. Mockingjay*

          Food also helps. Nothing heavy, think nourishment over calories. A good bowl of soup or hearty salad; trail mix to snack on. Graze every few hours instead of eating a large lunch to keep energy levels stable. A huge, greasy McSandwich will only weigh you down and make you sleepier.

    3. paul*

      Caffeine and water and more carbs than normal (small doses, at intervals, not a ton all at once) is what I’ve been doing this week–allergies been keeping me up most nights.

      1. strawberries and raspberries*

        I agree- my partner snores like a demonic pig and we just got a new kitten that likes to wake up at the devil’s hour and tear-ass around until just before I have to leave for work, so I’m lucky if I get five hours anymore. Having a croissant with my coffee does amazing things for my concentration, as does drinking water all day.

    4. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I’ve been going through a bout of insomnia (which happens to me at least a few times per year). My biggest tip is to get as much quiet time as you can. I’m not sure what your role is, so it might not be feasible for you – but what I do is basically close myself off from other people (closed door, wear headphones, etc.) as much as possible throughout the day – people don’t care, they just assume I’m on a tight deadline – and then I can reserve my energy for the times when I need to deal with people. Ha.

    5. Badmin*

      omg me too. I’ve been cranky all week but when I remember today is Friday, it cheers me up. Maybe just remind yourself you’re in a mood and you don’t people to remember you/view you like that? I think I rightfully was firm with a coworker this week, but I made sure to be extra sweet next time I saw them.

    6. Lumen*

      Oof. I feel you. As others have said,: take deep, slow breaths, drink water, limit caffeine, get up for mini-walks regularly.

      I’ve found that running cool tap water over the insides of my wrists for about 10 seconds brings my core temperature down, and it can be oddly calming to just stand there feeling the water flowing over my skin and focusing on that.

      Give yourself some gentleness: being sleep deprived is not entirely unlike being ill. We tend to speed up when we’re not feeling great, which is just a compensation mechanism. Slow down as much as is reasonable and don’t beat yourself up for that: you are not well today. It is okay to go slow.

      And be safe going home! Sleep deprivation is serious business.

    7. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      It’s ok to tell people you’re a bit under the weather. That doesn’t give you free license, but it will let you off the hook a bit on the professional and pleasant parameters.

    8. General Ginger*

      Seconding the “write things down” comment. My memory is one of the first things to fail me on sleep deprivation days; I could promise you the moon and a herd of camels in the AM and forget about it by lunch.

    9. fposte*

      Deliberately speak a little slower. That’ll refocus you on the communication and give you time to rescue the tone of a sentence that starts out sharp–if you end nicer people will often forget that you started out brusque.

    10. K.*

      I’ve battled insomnia for my adult life (things are going well, knock-wood), and I agree with the light, healthy eating advice. When I’m sleep-deprived, eating healthfully really helps – I just feel better, overall, which helps combat the tiredness. Heavy food makes me feel sluggish even when I’ve slept well, and it’s that much worse when I haven’t. Don’t overdo it on caffeine – you’ll just crash.

    11. Ama*

      I have occasional insomnia, so I feel you. If you can’t take a sick day (which I recommend if you really don’t think you’ll be able to get work done, but I have been in a position where that’s not possible), I try to keep myself to tasks that are relatively simple — nothing that requires me to write long emails (unless it is a form email I’ve already drafted and I’m just copying and pasting), nothing that requires a lot of “let’s see I’ll get item A from this document and item B from that file and oh for the entries that need C I’ll have to look up this thing.”

      I also find that arranging my workflow so I’m not trying to multitask too much helps — instead of doing half of task A, taking a break to go to a meeting, doing all the follow-up from that meeting and doing task C, I’ll do task C because I know I can get it finished before the meeting, then go to the meeting, set the follow-up aside for the next day (if possible) and to get a long unbroken stretch of time on task A. It tends to minimize the amount of errors I make and helps me focus as much as possible.

    12. Bea*

      When tired and stressed my default is depression and weeping easily. I think it truly depends on core characteristics in many cases. There are also crazy folk who apparently need only to sleep for a few hours to recharge, they’re practically machines so don’t try to keep up to those standards!!

    13. OhNo*

      I have a terrible habit of never getting enough sleep, and I work in customer service, so I know lots of tricks to keep pleasant even when I’m exhausted.

      One option is to just smile all the time. I go for a small smile, like you’d use when acknowledging a stranger on the street. You don’t have to be happy, but smiling projects an air of pleasantness to everyone that can see you, and it’s noticeable in your voice if you’re working over the phone.

      If you can get away with apologizing a lot, do that too. There’s something about the words “I’m sorry” that can tone down your remarks if they’re edging into impolite territory. Plus, it’s great if you get that sleep deprivation brain fog – “I’m sorry, can you repeat that?” is my most commonly used phrase when I’ve got the brain fog going.

      Definitely take lost of breaks, too. Get up and walk around a little, drink a bunch of water like others have said, and generally just get away from your normal workspace for a couple minutes. Starting “fresh” after a break is some of my only productive time when I’m sleep deprived, so I take breaks as often as possible.

    14. Moonbeam Malone*

      Agree on the comments about water and snacks. I’m also prone to eyestrain and spend a lot of time in front of a computer, so occasionally doing some eye exercises (just moving my eyes around a bit, looking away from my screen, opening them a little wider and then blinking,) can help me out. I try to pay attention to my posture, stretch if needed, not slouch too much. It doesn’t help much, but it is better than when I don’t do it.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      Can you make a list of talking points in prep for the conversation?
      This may help to turn the conversation into more of a fact collecting mission and therefore pretty benign?
      It will also help you to know when you are done conversing. Seriously. It’s hard to figure out when to stop talking while running on an empty tank. If you have a fair idea of what you need to get out of the conversation BEFORE you start, then you have a little road map for yourself.

      If there are things you must do, make a to-do list as you converse. If you need to repeat it back to them, “So you need me to count the number of llamas we have right now?” When they say yes, write down “count the llamas”. And “You said to call you on Tuesday with the count?” Then write down, “Call on Tues w/ count.”
      What I am trying to show is write down things that seem obvious, don’t take it for granted that you will remember. If I don’t write it down in these situations later I tell myself that I screwed ME. Then I am mad at me. None of this is good on top of being exhausted. Write down the obvious.

  18. Opalescent Tree Shark*

    I have a question that boils down to who’s right, me or my boss. My boss was reviewing one of my presentations and loved it accept she wants me to make out a joke I make about clowns being terrifying. I believe that it is socially accepted that clowns are scary, but she does not want to potentially offend any clowns that may be in the audience. (For the record, she liked all my other jokes)

    This is an actual real thing my boss and I are having a disagreement about. Is it ok to make fun of clowns?

      1. Not So Super-visor*

        Agree with Snubble. Unless the joke 100% makes the presentation, take it out. If your entire presentation rides on this one joke, you might need to re-evaluate the presentation if your boss wants it out.

        1. Observer*

          I was going to ask the same thing.

          It’s not like she’s asking you to take out a joke about asteroids because she’s afraid that you’ll offend an asteroid in your audience.

        2. Opalescent Tree Shark*

          I don’t really care about keeping it. I was asking more tongue-in-cheek because I think it’s silly my boss is worried about offending clowns. I am not at all committed to keeping the joke in

          1. Totally Minnie*

            But there are people in the world who are professional clowns. It’s not silly to not want to hurt people’s feelings.

            1. Observer*

              And there are people who do clown stuff specifically to help people, effectively, I might add. I imagine that finishing off with “I don’t mean those clowns” wouldn’t do much for the joke.

      1. Anonanonanon*

        Yep. The question is not whether the joke is appropriate or not. It is whether you will listen to your boss or not. She doesn’t like the joke so you should remove it.

    3. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      In general, I think it’s perfectly fine to make fun of clowns and I find her objection a bit weird. But I agree with Snubble and ZSD that it’s not worth the energy to defend the joke in this situation.

    4. Susan K*

      I think it is fine to make fun of clowns, but it is not a hill on which to die, so if your boss wants it out of the presentation, just take it out.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Unless clowns being scary is somehow relevant to the topic of the presentation (is it a circus? a children’s hospital? some other place where clowns might be?) it is definitely not worth arguing over.

    7. Mockingjay*

      I had a similar issue with someone who snuck a new acronym into a presentation as a tagline on every page. When I proofed the brief, I asked what the acronym stood for. I was gobsmacked to find out it was an obscenity. The coworker was absolutely convinced this was fine.

      No, we do not put jokes or obscenities in work products, especially when presenting to the customer who funds our program. The tagline was removed.

      Please do as your boss says. Presentations convey your company’s branding. Save the jokes for the water cooler.

      2. Opalescent Tree Shark*

        Just to be clear, my presentation is supposed to be fun and engaging. If it was all business and no jokes it would be the completely wrong tone for our particular audience. My boss did specifically say that she wanted me to keep in the other jokes, it was just the clown one that she objected to.

        1. Pollygrammer*

          Unless this is the greatest joke in the history of jokes and you’re being scouted by SNL during your presentation, I don’t understand why this matters to you.

      3. alannaofdoom*

        This has just reminded me of my first “real” job when I wrote “WTF” as a note to myself on top of a report that had an error. A report which my boss, unbeknownst to me, was going to discuss later with *her* boss. He asked what “WTF” meant and I think she scrambled and said something like, “it means ‘What’s this for?'” and that’s how I learned to assume that my grandboss will eventually see anything I write down, even if it’s a note to self.

    8. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Clowns are totally creepy. But I agree with the other commenters, it’s not a fight worth having.

    9. SoCalHR*

      We’re at the point in society that we’re afraid of offending clowns??

      Who is this audience that could randomly be comprised of clowns?? Will they be in costume or undercover?

      What type of presentation is this that would make sense to have jokes about clowns in the first place?

      I have so many questions! lol

      1. Opalescent Tree Shark*

        Haha, since we present to a wide array of people, I assume my boss is concern that there is a chance that someone in the audience could be a clown in their off hours. I can’t imagine there would be a costumed clown in our presentation.

        The presentation is on climate change, believe it or not, but trust me, the clown joke makes sense in context.

      2. Yorick*

        Right?! What are the odds that someone in the audience is a clown in their off hours? This is a super silly critique.

        But still I’d take it out just to make Boss happy.

        1. Yorick*

          And would a clown really be that offended to hear a joke that people think they’re scary?

          1. Observer*

            Do lawyers think lawyer jokes are funny?

            Why would you expect someone who is a clown to find jokes about how they are scary to be funny?

    11. Opalescent Tree Shark*

      To clarify, I will, of course, do as my boss asks. But, like any good advice column asker, I just want people on the internet to tell me I’m right :P

      2. The OG Anonsie*

        You are indeed correct and this is a hilariously weird note from your boss. Like, take it out, but it’s definitely weird!

      3. Sparkly Lady*

        I actually know a fair amount of clowns. The clowns are scary thing can indeed be a sore point with people who do clowning. I have no idea what the likelihood of people who clown being in the audience is, but I think your boss is right. It sounds like there’s no upside to leaving in the joke, but there is a potential downside albeit a small one.

    12. LKW*

      Agreed -not the hill to die on. Maybe she’s got a clown relative through marriage. Or grew up in an area with many clowns. Take the joke out. You can always try open mike night if you need to tell that joke in public.

    13. Wintermute*

      It’s fine to make fun of clowns – socially. But at work your boss gets to decide that. Take the joke out.

    14. Hellanon*

      “Clowns are scary” is very culturally specific as well, and I’d always want to err on the side of not telling jokes certain groups may not get.

    15. Observer*

      So, people mentioned that it’s not the hill to die on – not even worth an argument. Also, someone mentioned that this is a culturally specific joke and might go over like a lead balloon with some people.

      I also have another issue. Why is it necessary to make fun of any group of people? Replace “clowns” in your last sentence with almost any group, and you can see why this could be offensive. There are almost always other ways to make a point without needing to poke fun at a group of people. Just because “it’s a thing” doesn’t make it ok.

      And, by the way, “clowns are scary” is a thing, but it is far from a universal thing, even in the US.

      1. Yorick*

        Jokes don’t have to be offensive. A “clowns are scary” joke is probably one that people would think is all in good fun.

        1. Observer*

          WHICH people? That’s always the issue with jokes that make fun of a group.

          Lots of people think that jokes about women being emotional, or guys being macho or X-Group being Y-ish are “all good fun”, but the women, men or people in X-group don’t necessarily think so.

          1. Apari*

            I agree, it feeds in with a culture where making fun of other people is amusing. Yes, there are many more egregious examples, but if you can avoid going there at all, that’s a win.

            Also I do know people who dislike clowns so much that just hearing about them is uncomfortable, and if nothing else, you want people to be thinking about your presentation and taking it in, not distracted because you started talking about clowns.

    17. WorkingOnIt*

      Lol – the clowns in the audience part seems like it’s a joke in itself, but yeah take it out, it might be a fun joke to you, but it might be coming across as unprofessional, or just silly, her reasoning why you shouldn’t have it seems kind of silly, but perhaps valid to her. For all you know half her family are clowns. Either way she’s the boss, she doesn’t think it’s right and it doesn’t affect the message of the presentation, so not something worth haggling over.

      1. fposte*

        FWIW, I think the “clowns are scary” thing is a little played out, on the order of “Nickelback is just the worst.” I might nix it on that basis alone.

  19. NoodleMara*

    I started a new job on March 1st. I didn’t realize, and they didn’t tell me, is that my health insurance doesn’t start until April 26th. I didn’t continue my insurance with old job but from what I remember, i can get some kind of continued insurance from them within 60 days.

    Is the HR person at old job the only one to contact about this? Because I suspect he might be a royal *ss about it and not respond to my email. Or really drag his feet.

    And yeah, the company was pretty small so he handled all hr things.

    1. The Original Flavored K*

      You might be able to deal with COBRA directly, but I suspect you’ll need information from Old HR Guy. Is there anybody you can loop in to make sure he keeps his nose clean? I’d email him and CC that person.

    2. Artemesia*

      your company should have provided the COBRA paperwork when you left. The good news is that if you can get this registered ASAP you won’t have to pay for the insurance. There is a 60 days window where if you need it, you can use it and pay the insurance, but if you don’t, you just don’t pay. But you have to actually apply for it and thus get the paperwork from them.

      1. NoodleMara*

        He did it verbally over the phone, and I took notes but in the chaos of moving, have completely lost them. I emailed him yesterday afternoon, and I know he isn’t busy. Idek. This is my first job change so there’s all these little things I didn’t realize.

        1. Bea*

          You should get paperwork mailed to you. Call the insurance company directly. The dbag HR guy had to have canceled you so they weren’t paying your premiums anymore,the insurance or their broker/administrator is your best bet since he’s a dingleberry.

      2. Natalie*

        Some minor corrections:

        Most companies contract with a benefits administration company to handle COBRA so they don’t actually have paperwork to hand you on your last day. The company has a 30 day window to notify the plan administrator of a qualifying event, and then the plan administrator has 14 days to send the notice, so it could be over a month before you receive the paperwork. On the plus side, your enrollment clock does not start until that notice is sent out.

        You also have up to 60 days to enroll, and then an additional 45 days to pay, so you can stretch out that “maybe coverage?” window for 3 months. As long as you haven’t previously declined coverage, the coverage will be retroactive to the day your last insurance ended.

        1. SoCalHR*

          Exactly Natalie – COBRA paperwork comes from the COBRA administrator.

          If you actively need your insurance: you may be paying cash for a bit and then have to get reimbursed (unless you know your doctor well enough and they’ll bill the insurance later) until you get a chance to sign up for COBRA and then it kicks in.

          If you don’t actively need it: then yes, it may be worth it to ride it out and see if you need it retrospectively. If you have a major incident then you can sign up for COBRA before the enrollment period ends. If not, then simply sign up for your new insurance.

          I find it a little odd that your new coverage would start on 4/26 (i.e. not the first of a month) so you may want to double check that, you may not have new coverage until May 1st.

          1. Natalie*

            Even if you actively need it for a couple of appointments, it might still be worth paying privately and then seeing how much money you’re actually talking about. My spouse and I ended private paying for about two months because even with several appointments each, we were breaking even with the premium cost at best.

            1. Enough*

              Especially as for COBRA the employee pays 100% of the cost of the insurance plus a service fee.

            2. NoodleMara*

              Yeah, it only came up because I had to refill a prescription that my previous insurance has covered. I had an HSA before that’s got a good chunk of money in it, so I’m not super worried about things like that. Just if I got super sick or had to go to the hospital. I didn’t do any official decline paperwork, just verbally said I probably didn’t need the insurance. That’s why hr dude said I had 60 days if I so chose. Thank you all for your help!

          2. NoodleMara*

            The coverage had a 56 day waiting period which is why I was a bit blindsided. None of the onboarding paperwork mentioned the waiting period. I had to dig through the insurance plans website directly.

            1. Bea*

              56 days is a bizarre number but I’ve never seen insurance start day one, frequently there is at least a 30-90 day preliminary period. Something to keep in mind if you change jobs again!

            2. AAAA*

              A waiting period is not unusual but 56 days seems like an odd and arbitrary number. Typically you’d be eligible for insurance on the first day of the month following date of hire, or the first day of the month following 30 days employed, or 60 days, etc. Waiting periods are not unusual, 30-90 days is what is typical, though a good employer will cover their new hires ASAP (we do first of the month following date of hire on health and first of the month following 90 days employed on ancillary coverage – dental, std, ltd, life, etc.)

    3. Jerry Vandesic*

      You should be able to use COBRA to cover any medical care you need covered during those 56 days. And it won’t cost you anything if you end up not needing any medical care.

      You have 60 days from the time your employment ends to notify your former plan administrator that you would like to accept COBRA. You can do this retroactively, so on day 59 you can accept COBRA, and you would have coverage from day 1 onward. So, if you don’t need medical care before your new health insurance starts, then you simply let the deadline go by. If for some reason you do need medical care during those 56 days and you would like to be covered by COBRA, simply send the form accepting COBRA before the 60 day deadline. That way you only pay for COBRA if you need it.

      Also, if you need more time (e.g., your old health insurance ended before March 1), you can use the COBRA rules to get an extra 45 days. It turns out that you don’t need to send in your first COBRA premium payment for 45 days after you accept COBRA. If you need more time, accept COBRA on day 60, and then wait for 45 days to make the payment. Again, if you don’t need any covered medical care during those 105 days, simply don’t send the payment in and it will cost you nothing. But if you do need covered medical care, send in your payment before the end of the 105th day, and you will be retroactively covered by COBRA.

  20. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    Well. The one job I applied for and moved through the phone interview and in person interview got back to me this week. They’re going in a different direction. As in a teapot coordinator to llama trainer. It’s not even CLOSE to what they put in the job description. I’m actually feeling a little bit like I dodged a bullet there.

    I have another phone interview next Tuesday. I’m looking forward to that. The company is big on philanthropy. And pays for your insurance. Fingers are crossed for that one!

    And here…..yeeshk. So much drama. FiredEmployee is back in today. Apparently there was something that was promised to him and a client before he got terminated, so they’re trying to regain his email. Which, okay. But he showed up with bronchitis. So. I’m carrying Lysol wipes with me everywhere.

  21. It's performance review season!*

    At our company, individuals identify a few people they work closely with to contribute feedback on their performance. Contributor feedback goes into an online system where it can be viewed by an employee’s manager and incorporated into the employee’s performance review. Different people/groups take this varying levels of seriously.

    I’ve been asked to contribute feedback for my manager. I have some fairly serious concerns about her that I’ve noticed and also that other people have brought to me. I haven’t raised them with anyone because the repercussions really only affect me, as her only direct report; I’m worried that the concerns will be written off as a personality conflict, I don’t want to burn capital in case I need it to advocate for my own staff, and I’m trying to leave anyway (but who knows how long that will take).

    I can:
    1. Write something bland, which avoids any potential drama but doesn’t allow for CYA on my part (i.e., if my manager puts negative things in my review related to these issues).
    2. Write something candid (and hopefully constructive), which could backfire and be more trouble than it’s worth.
    3. Ask to provide verbal feedback directly to my manager’s manager, which has similar constraints to #2 but at least would allow for a conversation and I wouldn’t have to agonize over what to put in a written record.
    4. Ignore the request and just not provide feedback, which honestly would probably be fine. (Word on the street is that my manager’s manager hasn’t provided written reviews for his direct reports in years.)

    Any thoughts? At the very least, writing this out has helped me realize how dysfunctional this situation is.

    1. Miri*

      If other people have brought it up to you, it’s clearly (as in, clear to someone outside the situation) not just a personality conflict. I would do either 2 or 3 and be clear that other people have raised it as well.

    2. SCAnonibrarian*

      First rule of keeping your job in a dysfunctional company: don’t put anything on the record that could get you in trouble, unless you HAVE to. So if this is something that could be “burning capital” or is in any way something you can ignore, then its much better to just keep your mouth shut and not get burned by any potential consequences. If you REALLY feel like you want to pass on your concerns, then I would say 3 could be your best option, but it still might not be worth the trouble. It’s not exactly the “right” thing to do, but sometimes you have to do the “safe” thing in order to protect yourself. Oxygen mask for yourself before others and all that.

    3. Blue Eagle*

      If you haven’t brought them up to your manager FIRST, then I absolutely would not put them in writing. Noone likes being blindsided by seeing something negative for the first time in some type of performance review.

      1. It's performance review season!*

        Oh, definitely. But it’s not a performance concern so much as bizarre overreactions to normal office stuff, e.g., she is accusing staff of maliciously undermining her authority based on things like forgetting to CC her on an email. I bear the brunt of it as her direct report, but I know she’s done it to others, so it’s not just me. I was going to just let it roll off me and continue job-searching (like SCAnonibrarian and Jules are suggesting) until I got the formal request for feedback.

        1. Product person*

          Oh, definitely. But it’s not a performance concern so much as bizarre overreactions to normal office stuff, e.g., she is accusing staff of maliciously undermining her authority based on things like forgetting to CC her on an email.

          Still, have you brought up your concern directly with your manager? If not, I’d think it’s not fair to mention it in a written feedback, because you haven’t given the person a chance to course-correct yet.

  22. Jake*

    Started my fourth job in 6.5 years yesterday. Need this one to last, for my resume’s and sanity’s sake.

  23. Amber Rose*

    My desk sits across from the training room, facing the wall. It’s super hard to focus on my work when it feels like the meetings in there are right on my shoulder.

    It’s only for two or three more months, but it’s just really bugging me today. And since I’m reception-esque/sales, I can’t leave my computer or phone and work elsewhere.

    I don’t have anything to do either, since we’re dead this week for industry reasons. I’m making a show of it with my spreadsheets but… ugh.

    It’s gonna be a looooong day.

  24. Underpaid*

    Just wanted to say many thanks to those who gave me advice on asking for an equity increase a few weeks ago! I had a stellar performance review and was able to raise the issue with my supervisor. He was very supportive! Now it’s just a matter of finagling the budget and working with HR to iron out the details :)

    1. Ali G*

      I wasn’t on that thread but just wanted to say that’s awesome! Good on you for advocating for yourself!

      1. Underpaid*

        Thank you! The book “Ask for It” was also immensely helpful, I can’t recommend it enough

  25. Dingo*

    My spouse got offered a wonderful job in a small town! He’d been trying to over a year to get into this company, so I’m so proud and happy! The only downside is now I must find a job out there. I’m struggling to figure out if I’m truly qualified for some of the positions I’m interested in. For example, I meet 7 out of 8 minimum requirements for one of them, but the one I’m missing is “Experience in travel planning” which I truly have zero experience in. I know every company is different, but do I have any chance for even an interview if I’m missing a requirement like that? Or am I just psyching myself out possible opportunities?

    1. Artemesia*

      Travel planning is easy to do and learn; of course you apply. If you can sit down with a travel agent or someone who plans travel at your company to get a briefing it might make you feel more comfortable. If it comes up in the interview you can indicate what you would do to come up to speed there.

    2. Snubble*

      You definitely have a chance, and you should not filter yourself out like that. It might be that it’s a hard requirement and they’re not going to hire you, but there’s a good likelihood it’s not vital if you tick enough of the other boxes. It’s not like you’re going to get the job under false pretenses. If travel experience is truly necessary, you won’t get hired. But it’s really their problem to decide how much they want that part. Don’t cut yourself out of the running – let the interviewer do that!

    3. CTT*

      I don’t think you have any way of knowing if you have a chance unless you apply, so go for it!

    4. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      I’d apply. You can read about travel planning, practice planning trips, etc. before the interview (and keep doing it if you get the job). Don’t lie and say that you have actual experience in it, but that seems like something people may be willing to budge on for someone who meets all the other requirements. And congrats to your spouse!

    5. The Person from the Resume*

      I think you’re psyching yourself out. Give them your resume/application and let them decide. My answer would be different if you met none of the qualifications, but 7 out of 8 is quite good. It’s possible that travel planning is not their highest priority or something you could easily learn. It’s possible that travel planning is critical and without experience they won’t invite you to interview, but with meeting 7 of 8 requirements let them make the decision because understand the priority of their requirements.

    6. ContentWrangler*

      I think meeting 7 out of 8 of their requirements is definitely worth applying. You don’t have to perfectly match 100% of a job’s requirements to apply. I think you’d still have a good chance.

    7. selina kyle*

      So I’ve been at my job for about eight months and really enjoy a lot of aspects of it. There are some frustrations and dealing with things I don’t enjoy (but I know that’d be true anywhere!) but for the most part it’s good. The benefits are great and the pay is…fine? It’s not amazing but it’s enough for me to live on comfortably.
      The issue is a company in a field I’m interested in (archaeology) has posted a job that seems perfect for me. The requirements suit what I’ve been doing here/what I’ve done in the past. I don’t know what the pay/benefits would be like, but I’m sort of interested.
      I feel a bit bad because the busy season for my job (I work in higher ed and graduation is looming overhead) is coming up, but I have most elements of what I need for that lined up and set up, so if I left it would put them in a bit of a lurch but not totally helpless/out of luck.
      Is it awful to apply somewhere that soon (for what it’s worth I’m only a couple years out of college) after starting this job? Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

    8. Karo*

      Definitely apply! Alison actually has a post about this (linked in username) that talks about why you should apply even if you don’t hit all the marks.

    9. Emmie*

      Men apply for jobs when they meet 60% of the qualifications. Women apply for jobs when we meet 100% of them. Apply! Apply for jobs where you meet 60% of the qualifications too. Not only because you should, but also because it’s a small town and its employers probably prioritize who will stay long-term at the job over those who are there temporally. A spouse working in the small town probably means you are likely to stay.

    10. Little Bean*

      Of course you can apply. Almost no one meets 100% of the qualifications for any job. And you probably do have *some* experience in travel planning – have you ever planned a trip for you or your family? Or had to travel for work before and book your own flight/hotel? In a case like this, I think it’s perfectly fine to use your personal experience, with an explanation that you understand it’s not the same as booking travel as a job but you understand the concepts of how it works.

    11. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      When I apply to a position, as long as it’s not something highly technical (like being a whiz at some software program) or that I’m way off with the years of experience they want, I’ll go for it. And as someone who lives and works in a small town, there aren’t a ton of qualified candidates for most beyond entry level jobs, so 7/8 requirements makes you an excellent match! :)

    12. foolofgrace*

      Maybe you could mention in your cover letter the steps you have taken / are taking to get up to speed on travel arranging. Well, maybe not; it might be a tossup. But if you’re really concerned, it might be a proactive move. You could talk up how you’ve been arranging family vacations for X years, etc., have interviewed a travel agent, and so on.

    13. Bea*

      My job description matched me about 80% strong, 10% kinda iffy and 10% “never have before”. I slam dunked it within a month.

      Believe in yourself. You are able to learn. And jobs you’re 100% at are boring AF in my experience.

    14. WorkingOnIt*

      Apply! Realistically you’ve arranged your own travel so you have some experience, I think there’s a rule out there that you should apply if you’ve got like 70% of the requirements, but don’t apply if you’ve got like 30%. Go for it!

    15. Purplerains*

      Apply for any positions where you meet 2/3 of the requirements. In my experience, you actually don’t end up doing all of them in your job anyways. (And travel planning is super easy to do. If you apply for and get this specific position, ask for these things from the people you are coordinating travel for: a list of any preferences for airlines, hotels and rental car companies, mileage plus numbers, rental car reward information, hotel rewards program numbers, known traveler number/TSA-pre if any, etc. Chances are all of this is already in place. If there are conferences you’re scheduling travel for, there are most likely conference hotels that will be used, or you can call the conference organizers for suggestions. Good luck!

  26. Promised Promotion*

    I’m looking for some help with how to word something or even if this is a hill to die on. About a year ago my previous manager said he was working on a raise and promotion for me but left for another position shortly after. I asked my interim manager, who is the head of our department, for a raise and promotion. He eventually secured me a portion of what I asked for and said the rest of a raise and a promotion would be in the works for 2018 (all promotions happen at the start of the year).

    I got a new manager in the fall and followed up with her about it. I was able to get the rest of my raise earlier this year but I have no idea what’s going on with the promotion. She sounded receptive at first but all 2018 promotions were announced which obviously did not include me. I’ve tried following up a few times with questions like “I was told by ‘previous managers’ this was in the works, I don’t understand what changed” but I haven’t really gotten a clear answer. I sort of feel like the answer is no but she hasn’t directly said no. I know one aspect is we have a deflated title structure. At similar organizations I would be a director. I asked for associate director which is still several steps up here from where I am. Also I work at a nonprofit and our title structure is centered around the program field while I’m in a different department, so the next step up here is a title that is literally never used in my field.

    My performance review is next week and I know my growth at the organization is going to be a major topic. Since my follows ups have not really been addressed directly, should I try and make one more attempt at advocating for my promotion? If yes, what’s a good way of saying “I was promised a promotion, wtf happened?” I know the usual advice here would be to ask what I need to do for a promotion but I’m so pissed off at not getting what I was promised that I don’t want to wait another year. My position is much more expansive than when I interviewed and I literally cannot take on any more.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      You should absolutely be job searching! In your next conversation, you’d say you were promised a promotion over a year ago and there’s been no sign of it materializing. I find that once I’m truly committed to leaving if I can’t get what I was promised, they can just sort of tell. Suddenly they’ll either move heaven or earth to make it happen or I’ll be happy when I go (and they’ll certainly feel that I gave them fair warning).

      1. Artemesia*

        This. And of course don’t even hint you would leave, but before the review already have the wheels in motion to search so when you go in you have that inner glow of someone who has a plan.

      2. Jules the Third*

        I have to disagree – PP got the raise, so the company is working with him/her on the things that make a difference right now, despite 3 managers in a year. Lotta paperwork can get missed in that churn. I would actually ask about what a promotion requires, document the heck out of the work I did that demonstrates that I deserve the promotion, and see what happens in 2019 before I hunted.

        I’d also chalk the 2018 no-promotion up to ‘Current manager was too new to be an effective advocate.’

    2. Ali G*

      I’ve been in this position before and from my experience, the new boss doesn’t want to give you a promotion. It sucks, but she isn’t required to fulfill a promise from her predecessor.
      I would approach it this way:
      Remind her that you have been promised this promotion by two former supervisors, but acknowledge it’s her decision and ask her what she needs from you to be comfortable with promoting you. Her answer will provide you the info you need to know if you have a growth path under her or not.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        It’s also, to be fair, a new supervisor probably has limited chits to cash, and they aren’t sure where to use them most strategically – prior supervisors knew the landscape and knew the limits and abilities of their power when they promised you that raise. However, this doesn’t make it your problem. If you know you’re capable of doing higher level work and earning more money, go get that job!!

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yeah. Unfortunately this is why it helps to have these agreements in writing :(

    3. mrs_helm*

      Definitely be job searching. Your situation is eerily similar to one that happened to me…promises, manager changes, and all. Then they changed my job title and had me crosstrain others for my old job. I eventually got the raise…retroactively…the day I was “laid off” because they eliminated “new job title”. Not saying that will definitely happen, but it did for me.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      So your old boss left.
      They hired a temp boss.
      Now you have your permanent boss, I assume.

      And the progression seems pretty normal, a lot of places do this.

      I would look closer here. The way these people were treated is pretty much what you can expect for yourself.

      Old Boss. Was there someone in line for his job? Does the company think about succession plans? Why did old boss leave? If old boss left because of the lack of a promotion this is a huge clue.

      Temp Boss. Where did she come from and where did she go to? Did they promise her a permanent position and then reneg? Maybe she agreed to do the job just to help out. How did the company treat her when it was time for her to leave? More clues about how this company flies, do they run from fire to fire or do they actually function?

      New Boss. Was she hired from the outside? Would it have made more sense to hire from within? Is she supported or is she left to her own devices? Stuff rolls downhill. If she is not supported well, then she will not know how to support her subordinates.

      You don’t have to answer here but what you are looking for is patterns of thoughtlessness, ball dropping and so on.

      They did give you the raise, eventually. Are you compensated reasonably for your workload? Do you have the authority you need to get your work done?

      You company, well at least your department seems chaotic. But you seem really upset in spite of your raises. So I am thinking there is almost too much History here for you to continue on with a happier or at least a more content mindset. Our mindset will do us in, meaning if you stay your work and/or attitude could reflect your discontent and that is not good.

      This is going to sound stupid, but I would start at square one. I would go into the review with two lists, one list of the things I am currently working and another list of things that are under my watch but may not be working on this week or this month.
      Next, lay out WHY you need the title. For example, let’s say your place is boarding my llama for me. I want to talk to someone about a payment plan for boarding. If your title is junior llama groomer, I am not going to be convinced I am talking to the person with authority to finalize a payment plan agreement with me. To expedite basic transactions you should have the title that matches your authority. Additionally, I could question why the junior llama groomer is handling some of the financials for the organization. This could work into the organization is discrediting itself in the eyes of the public.

      That is just one example of a talking point. The overall idea is you will need to come up with persuasive reasons why the company needs to get you the title you should have. I think that your point about what other orgs are doing is a good point and you could use that as a talking point. So you arm your boss with these reasons so she can go to her boss and use your rationale to argue effectively on your behalf.
      Sad, but there it is.

  27. Fenchurch*

    I have an interview in 2 weeks! I am so excited!

    Meanwhile work has become unbearable. We had been slow for a little while so our management team decided to more than triple our subscriber list. This has increased our workload tenfold. To help, they have decided that we need to create training material and train 2 contractors to assist with our work. But we still have to do a full audit of everything they do. This has not helped relieve our workload in the least so far. We also get conflicting directions regarding priority, whether we should focus on being as efficient as possible (which decreases client experience) or to deliver excellent client experience (which decreases efficiency.

    If I don’t get this new job, I am going to throw myself into applications elsewhere. This is stressing me out.

    1. Irene Adler*

      Wouldn’t hurt to start applying elsewhere now. What if the job interview two weeks from now yields nothing? Then you’ve lost 2 weeks of applying for other positions.

      1. Fenchurch*

        That’s fair, I guess I just have a lot on my plate between wedding planning (getting married in less than 2 months! AH!) and being a volunteer editor outside of work hours. The only reason I was able to apply to this role is that it’s an internal position, and I do really love my company.

    2. Fenchurch*

      Also this week my manager forgot I was calling in on a meeting she attended and basically told everyone in the meeting that I was only hired because of the 2 people who applied to the position the other person dropped out. She apologized after she realized I was on the call, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Do NOT say this/ “It’s okay, Boss. I am not offended. I am only working here until I can find a real job with a real boss. So no worries, alright?”/ Do not say this.

  28. confused*

    I’ve been waiting for this thread all week.

    I want to change my job title and tasks and want to know how to go about asking. I am not after a raise (though if I was offered one I’d obviously take it) but what I really want is a change in title and in my written job description that better aligns with what I am actually doing, which is drastically different to what I was hired for.

    Basically I have fallen into a task that is taking up so much of my time it should be a job in its own right. My company deals with a lot of important people from one specific country, these people often do not speak fluent English. I lived in this country when I was child and went to school there for several years as a result I am fluent in the language. After an interpreter cancelled last minute I stepped in to help out the VP in what I expected was a one time thing. But since then whenever we get someone from that country in the office I get to sit in on the meeting, I’m not always needed some of the clients speak fluent English but the VP likes me there just in case. I have also been tasked with taking clients to tourist attractions, shopping e.t.c during the work day, I still paid though.

    The problem is this is taking up increasingly more of my time, to start with it was taking about one or two work days a month. It was a bit of extra work but I enjoyed it and it kept me in the VP’s good books which I felt was a good idea. But now it is taking about ten working days (or two weeks) as well as this I am having to do my actual job that I was hired for. The VP is also suggesting I start arranging our companies business trips to their country and has recently hinted I should go on the next one which will be a week long. I want to go but I was hired as a trainee teapot painter and I am already far behind my coworker who was hired at the same time due to doing these things for the VP. As such I am not getting many good assignments from my manager as I am not much good at painting teapots, part of this is due to lack of training part of this is because I have discovered I don’t actually like the work and that I have little aptitude for it. If I wasn’t so useful to the VP I think my direct manager would have fired me by now.

    I want to propose that it becomes my job exclusively to deal with incoming international clients and outgoing business trips. I want to propose I stop being a trainee teapot painter completely and become something like “client relations liaison (working title I’m open to suggestions)”. I don’t think this is unreasonable especially because if I start doing all the new stuff the VP wants me to do I will have no time left to paint teapots, but this is my first job out of university so I am unsure how to go about this. Whether I am told I can change my job or not I definitely do not want to be a teapot painter and if I am not allowed to change internally I will definitely start looking for jobs more aligned to what I have been doing. As the VP has become used to my being around to help whenever she wants something I feel this might motivate her to let me change my job if she feels I might quit otherwise but I do not want to sounds like I am blackmailing her especially as I expect it would take me months at least to find a new job given my lack of experience I do not want to be fired or pushed out early or burn any bridges. I also think it is weird when a client asks who I am and I have to tell them I’m a trainee teapot painter even when they have seen me in meetings with the executives I don’t think this makes our company look very professional.

    I have a good relationship with the VP, I like her as a person but I am not sure she is a great manager (as evidenced by the fact the only person able to communicate with some of her most important clients is the 23 year old new hire). My manager is less friendly though I think most of that is stress as he has one less employee than he needs due to my other tasks but if I get my job changed he could then hire a new person to do my old job so I think he would be happy. But I am essentially asking for a promotion if not a raise and as I am only about 7 months into my first ever job I do not know if this is appropriate. Am I being completely out of line? If I am can someone explain why? If I’m not can someone suggest how I go about doing this without offending anyone? Do I go to the VP directly? To my direct manager first?

    1. ladydoc*

      Is your VP your boss’ supervisor? If so, I think you can lay out a compelling argument directly to the VP about changing your job description and job duties to fill the new role. Be clear about the time the work is requiring and how it impacts your productivity in your original role. Also make your passion for the client project show–don’t threaten to leave but make it clear that you enjoy this work and really want to focus on it. I probably wouldn’t ask for a raise right now though–they have to create a new job and a new salary line to backfill your position, and upping your salary as an inexperienced person filling a brand new role is not going to be a high priority.

      If they don’t bite, you MUST get an agreement to lower your teapot painting quotas in order to continue to do this work. If you don’t, you risk being a failure in your primary job function, and if your VP ever leaves, you will likely be fired. Get whatever you can in writing.

      Also, if you do get a new position, keep metrics–how many clients assisted, how many meetings arranged, funds you might have saved by negotiating, whatever it might be. Those metrics will be how you make a case to get promoted after a year or so has passed.

    2. Blue Eagle*

      Does it need to be a promotion or can it be a lateral move to a new job title that is created for you? If you are dead set on a promotion, then I’m not sure what to tell you as 7 months is not very long. But if you can frame it as a new job title where you are working directly for the VP, I would definitely go for it.

      Prepare a presentation and write everything down to be clear about what your proposal is and why you can add value to the company with this proposed job. It is not enough to just think about what you are going to say. Write it down and go over it so that you are clear and concise. You don’t necessarily have to memorize it, but if you write it down word for word, and practice it, then when you talk to the VP about it you will sound more polished and professional. Good luck!

      1. confused*

        My ideal is a job where I am a department of one directly reporting to the VP. Though if she put me under any of the managers (its a small enough company I know them all at least in passing) I wouldn’t be upset none of them are lunatics (as far as I know, even my manager just doesn’t like me because I don’t do my primary job well which is not unreasonable) and I could see why they might not want to put me in a department by myself given lack of experience but as the VP is always giving me tasks directly it seems logical to me reporting to her directly would be easier. I used the word promotion because if things happen as I want my grandboss would become my boss (does this count as a promotion? As I said I have little experience).

        I don’t know if this would count as a promotion but it might be perceived as one which is why I used the word. I am not expecting a promotion 7 months into my first job ever I am hoping for a job with targets and expectations more aligned to what I am spending most of my time on.

        I hope this made sense.

    3. Naptime Enthusiast*

      Do you want this to become your full-time role? I think that’s the first question your have to ask yourself, since you hired in to a completely different set of responsibilities that you’ve really not been able to work on the same as your colleagues.

      If you do, then I think that needs to be a conversation with the VP and not your manager, since your manager really doesn’t have a say in creating a new title. Is this something that really needs a person to be dedicated to full-time? Or is it just during this client project, and as soon as it’s finished you will no longer need to be the liaison, then what will you do? Phrasing it like this to the VP may make him realize that he’s asking you to do too much outside of the scope of your job, and yeah it’s great that he’s paying you for that but you’re not actually doing the job you were hired to do and that’s a problem. He may realize he needs to scale back on the requests and let you do your actual role under your boss.

    4. foolofgrace*

      It’s clear that the situation cannot continue as it is. I like the comment warning about what if the project is over, you’re in your new position and no longer needed, what happens? If it were just a case of being overloaded, I know that when that happens to me, I go to my manager and say “I have X, Y and Z on my plate and can’t accomplish them all in the time I have — please prioritize for me so I know what to focus on.” This puts the onus on them to fix the problem. I think a form of this would be good to take to your manager with the goal of maybe lessening your teapot painting duties but still keeping them active in case the translation project falls through.

    5. OtterB*

      Since you’ve said that you would rather not do the teapot painting anyway, I think your line of approach is that while you are interested in your organization’s teapot line, you have found that you like the client liaison role and think you are serving the company well in that way.

      Would a title like “Special Assistant to the VP” work?

      But agreed, you need to discuss whether this is a long term need of your company and, if not, what happens to you later? Also be thinking about the directions in which this will take your career. Will the skills and connections you will develop in this role be ones you would like to continue with?

    6. Samiratou*

      Personally, I think talking to the VP first might rub your boss the wrong way. He may be annoyed with you, because it’s easier to be annoyed with you than with the VP, but going above his head will probably just make him even more irritated. So, I’d talk to him first, with an eye toward how this new position might benefit him. He wants the full time teapot painter he hired. You want the new role with the VP. Talk to him about how the two of you can position the extra head count to the VP so that you can move into that role and he can hire a full time teapot painter who is actually painting teapots full time.

  29. Buffy Summers*

    I’ve got nothing specific to ask, I am just so discouraged in my job search that I want someone to commiserate with me. I’ve been looking for months now and have had exactly one interview. I’m miserable every day in my current job and I want out so badly. Yes, I get it. I’m just one big stinkin’ ray of sunshine.
    If anyone has advice or encouragement I would be deeply grateful.

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I looked for 18 months when I was in retail. Had exactly 3 interviews. Almost everyone rejected me due to my lack of office experience. Luckily, the last one hired me. It was discouraging and I wanted to throw in the towel. But I kept reminding myself, “I only need the one.” Keep plugging along – it will happen!

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I don’t understand why I’m having such poor luck – I keep hearing the economy is better than ever! But I found a job in 2008 as the recession set in, and I’ve been searching now (on and off) for over a year. I don’t understand what changed but you definitely have my sympathy.

    3. Trillion*

      It is hard and SO MUCH WORK. I think everyone forgets, once they get a job, how much work properly job searching can be.

    4. paul*

      /high five in commiseration

      I’m sitting on a ton of applications and postings in Dallas, and absolutely positively sure 100% that I’ll get none of them. Maybe after we move it’ll get easier.

      Job hunting sucks. It really, really sucks.

    5. ContentWrangler*

      At least you aren’t working at Doublemeat Palace. Hope things get better for you soon! Is there anyway for you to broaden your search? Maybe there are some related fields where you could find more options?

    6. L*

      You can hang in there, remembering that just because you don’t see light at the end of the tunnel (of job hunting) doesn’t mean there IS no end. Can you find ANYTHING good about your current job (like, at least I can pay the rent and feed myself on my earnings)? Try to focus on that instead of on the misery. I get you, truly. My workplace gets more dysfunctional each passing day. But there are no equivalent jobs in my little town, I am well over the age where employers would be glad to hire me (except maybe as a Walmart greeter), and I have decided to ride this pony until it falls in the canyon and breaks its neck. Then maybe social security and grow my side gigs. But my paycheck hasn’t bounced and I am getting my financial ducks lined up so that I’m ready when the inevitable happens. You can, too!

    7. SophieChotek*

      I completely commiserate with you. I want out of my job too — been looking for over 4 years too for a new job and can’t seem to get any traction. Hang in there!

    8. k.k*

      I’m so with you. I’m at a point where I know exactly what types of jobs I want (something I’ve really struggled with in the past). They exist in my area, but just don’t get posted every day. I want out so bad that I feel like I should be sending out 100 resumes every day (or at least one), but I also know that I don’t want to take a job out of desperation only to be stuck in another bad situation.

      The only thing keeping me sane right now is taking a conscious effort to savor every second outside of work. Every second at work is “Only 4 more hours and then I get to go pet my dogs!” “Only three hours til dinner!” and at home, “Cleaning the bathroom sucks but at least I’m not at work!”. I’m not a very peppy person so all this force positivity is a stretch for me, but it keeps me from screaming at someone on a daily basis.

    9. Lumen*

      Job hunting is THE WORST. It is awful and terrible when you are unemployed, and it is surprisingly not any better when you are employed in a job you really want to leave. I don’t blame you for being depressed.

      Also, who cares if you’re not a ray of sunshine? You’re a person, not a joy battery. You are allowed to not be happy about the current state of affairs.

      One thing that worked for me was to make it a habit that I worked on every day. At first it was ‘look for other jobs at least once a day’ and later on, it was ‘apply to at least 1 job a day’. It was there right along side ‘make your bed’ and ‘drink 8 cups of water’ and ‘feed your fish’.

      For me that made it less of a loaded, emotionally charged thing where I would binge-hunt for hours at a time and just feel depressed and exhausted. Every day, even if work was terrible and I got no replies, I knew I’d at least done one thing to help me move forward.

      It took nine months, which was actually not the longest job search I’ve ever had. I got responses from companies that turned out to look super shady, so I wouldn’t interview with them – that would be like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. But it did happen. Someone saw my resume, thought I would be a good fit, and I had an offer a week later.

      I really hope things get better for you. I know how hard this is, but you know what?

      At least you’re not working at the DoubleMeat Palace.

      1. General Ginger*

        It’s just the name of the process.

        But yeah, I’m in that serious binge hunting boat right now, and it is the absolute worst. I have a pact with a friend who is also looking (in another state/industry, so we’re not competing at all), where we keep each other in the loop about our searches — a little bit of commiserating, and a little bit of encouragement once a week. It really helps.

    10. LL Cool G*

      I can totally empathize with you.

      Have you tried to re-do your cover letter or resume? Currently employed but also want out. I’ve had interviews, phone screens and a few companies went ghost on me once I gave them availability for a phone screen or in-person interview. Just keep swimming. Is there a chance you can take a personal leave of absence (FMLA could cover this) for a while?

    11. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Ugh, that sounds exactly like me, down to the 1 interview. It’s so demoralizing. To me the worst is the feeling that my future is completely dependent on the whims of the person reading my resume (if it even gets past the hiring software filters!). I’ve got a side business that I’ve been doing for years and decided to push hard on it to see if it can maybe be my escape hatch. It’s really all I have control over.

    12. AnonyNewb*

      I was looking for over a year for a new job and FINALLY received an offer on the 13th of the month. It SUCKED looking for that long and it got super discouraging, but keep your head up! They seem to come up all at once – I had two companies super interested in me at the same time after months of searching. Hopefully a situation like that can come up for you and you get to hold the bargaining chips!

    13. WorkingOnIt*

      Is it worth staying at your current job, would it be possible for you to join a temp agency and then shift to doing work for them? I wish I’d thought of that, I hated my job, got sick and stressed and left it and now am only really searching for jobs months later, it’s disheartening and I wish past me had thought things through properly, but unfortunately everything got on top of me and I wasn’t thinking clearly at all. I’m about to get set up with a temp agency, and then hopefully I’ll be in a non stressful environment, and so finding the right job will be prioritized over getting out of a horrible situation/gettting any job. Getting an interview is great though – you’re making progress. Wishing you loads of luck!

    14. Oblomov*

      I can commiserate. I’ve been looking for 10 months now. I’ve actually gotten a fair amount of interviews, but it doesn’t matter – none of them have turned into a job. Having read AMA enough, I know 10 months isn’t a crazy amount of time, but I’m unemployed and our financial situation is getting dire. To top it all, my daughter is supposed to go back to daycare next month (we pulled her to save money) and if I don’t have a job by then we’ll have to keep her out and lose our spot. Daycares are so competitive in our area- I have know idea how I’ll be able to job search without knowing exactly when I’ll be able to get her enrolled somewhere. How do people manage that? I’m especially miserable right now because I had an interview that went so well two weeks ago for a role that I was extremely excited about…but once again the deadline to get back to me has passed and…nothing. I’m sitting here trying to figure out if it’s worth emailing them to follow up. I’ve been volunteering, networking, applying, and working some freelance gigs where I can, all while watching my daughter full-time. I’m exhausted and ready to give up.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This is one of the tough parts for (want to be) working parents. I have to keep explaining to various well-meaning people that even though I’m home now, we have to keep our kids in day care/after care because we can’t afford to lose their places (sign ups for the next school year happen 6-7 months in advance and the wait lists are insane here) WHEN I get a new job, which hasn’t happened in seven months of searching now. We’re fortunate to still be able to afford it but it even feels a little frivolous to me to be home all day not working and yet spending money on child care. The plus side is I can really focus on searching and applying and be ready to go within days, but it’s frustrating all the same, particularly when I don’t hear anything for weeks and rarely have an interview ever.

    15. sange*

      That is so frustrating and hard. I’m sorry – I think lots of us have been in your position and know how frustrating it can be. It took me about 2 years to find my current role, and my husband has been looking for something for almost 3 years. Have you thought about starting from scratch with your resume and cover letters? Just totally erasing and building a new document? Maybe there is a structural error or problem with your resume that you aren’t seeing, but is turning off your audience.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      It’s darkest before the dawn. Dawn will be here any minute. Just have the brass to keep going, when it does not make sense to keep going.

  30. LDP*

    Not really looking for advice, just wanting to vent a little bit. I work on a small team, and one of my coworkers just got promoted and transferred, so now it’s just my boss and I. My boss has been spinning her wheels trying to re-delegate the tasks my coworker used to do, and has basically just shut down and just sits on Instagram or chit chats all day. So, I’m an admin who’s basically running our department. She gives me menial tasks (like taking inventory of our giveaway items), which wouldn’t be a problem if I also didn’t have a website to manage, invoices to pay, social media accounts to monitor, blog posts to write, and revenue reports to generate. So frustrating.

  31. Dan Crawford*

    How long do you think it takes to feel at home in a new job? I’m about to finish my second month and now that the excitement and jitters have worn off I just feel bleh.

    People are friendly but I still feel like the new kid, and I still don’t quite feel like I know what I’m doing yet. Honestly I feel kind of useless and impotent. I know this is normal… but I guess I’m just feeling homesick for my old job where I felt super competent and loved my co-workers.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It really depends, but at two months in, what you’re experiencing is very, very normal. I’m 15 months in and I still feel like that sometimes. It always depends on the role. I was told it would take me 12-18 months to get up to speed, and while I feel so much better about things than I did a year ago, there are still areas where I question myself.

      In my last job, I was expected to be OMG AHMAHZING after three months (they told us it would take longer, but their expectations did not match the words that came out of their mouths) and I would say, out loud, that I missed my old job, where I was a rock star. Then I realized it took eight years to become that rock star. Remember that it takes time to get to the level of competence and confidence you felt at your last gig; you didn’t start out that way.

    2. Trillion*

      What you’re feeling is quite normal, in my experience (but it still sucks). I generally give it 6 months before I decide how great/meh/bad the job is.

      Hang in there :)

    3. Lil Fidget*

      So, so normal. I usually go through a rollercoaster – in the first week I’m overwrought and sometimes get upset, but at least everything is new and exciting – then reality sinks in and I feel incompetent, then around the six month mark things turn around and I start to feel valuable – then around two years I start getting bored and antsy :P

    4. LKW*

      So normal. I am a consultant. It can take me months to figure out how things operate at each client, who’s who, where they sit in the org, understand their roles & responsibilities. Sometimes by the time I finally have footing – the project is over and I start it all over again.

    5. Lumen*

      Oh, I remember this feeling. You’re right; it’s normal. Maybe text some of your old coworkers and see if they want to get coffee or drinks. I keep in touch with a few people from my last job (even though on the whole it was toxic) and just reconnected with a couple more.

      Also, bonus: the spin you give them about how it’s going (“There’s a lot to learn, like with any new job, but I think I’m starting to get it.”) can remind you that, uh… yeah. There’s a lot to learn, but you’re starting to get it. You’ll feel more like yourself in no time.

    7. Environmental Gone Public Health Gone Back Environmental*

      Same here. Been here a week, just switched from public (fake salaried, really hourly) to private (true salaried), feeling panicky that I have no idea what is going on and a hefty dose of imposter syndrome. Been worried how long these feelings are going to last. Not a fun place to be in.

      1. Dan Crawford*

        Oh man, me too, going from fake salaried to actual salaried! That in itself is so weird, also adding to the strange nebulous nature of how this new job feels.

        1. Environmental Gone Public Health Gone Back Environmental*

          Right?? It’s just *weird* to not clock in. And I can leave….whenever? Like, finished work for the day, and it’s okay to just….be done??? No one cares to what minute I show up/leave?? No one’s panties are going to be in a twist because I had to stay 45 minutes over one week (not that the job was seasonally swamped at all, you know)???

          Probably also a bit of adapting from a rather toxic workplace thrown in there too, tbh.

  32. Sloan Kittering*

    I need to work on reacting better in the moment when my boss delivers unpleasant news. For example, this week everybody else was off work for a snowstorm and he told me I still needed to show up to work an event at 7AM. Or he’s going to dump a really unpleasant task on me, like manually sorting through 7000 rows of excel data, or something. I’m not paid OT so my night and weekend work is uncompensated. I find that lately my immediate reaction is less professional than I want – I end up thinking later that I shouldn’t have sighed, huffed, or rolled my eyes. It didn’t help the specific problem *and* it probably dinged me in his eyes even though I still went above and beyond to do the work. Does anybody have a tip for that first moment when your boss gives you the “I need you to work tomorrow (Saturday)” speech?

    2. SoCalHR*

      Assuming you’re properly characterized as exempt? Otherwise there could be issues with the uncompensated extra hours.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Nah, I’m a manager above the salary threshold, and have been except since I was hired. I do understand that sometimes jobs need you to go above and beyond, and do unpleasant things.

    3. Nanny*

      This may sound a bit strange but as someone who has trouble controlling their facial reactions, I empathize. I find it helps to distract yourself with some other physical activity. Take a sip of water, reach for a pen to write down instructions. Just that extra moment of distraction can help you compose yourself enough to react appropriately

      1. Caro in the UK*

        I also have trouble controlling my expressions when I’m annoyed or upset, I’ve been told I have a very expressive face! I also do distraction techniques, writing down instructions is great, because it gives me an excuse to avoid eye contact for a few seconds while I compose myself.

    4. EB*

      I’m not sure this is entirely on you– of course, you want to be professional even when you’re getting work dumped on you. But… your boss is dumping work on you last-minute that’s causing you to work overtime– if you’re not getting appropriate recognition for that it’s natural that you’re going to bristle at being asked to put in extra effort over and over.

      As for tips in the moment– force yourself to smile slightly, perk up a little and stand up straighter. Imagine yourself as entering into some kind of professional robot mode that you can just flip on. Then as soon as your boss is gone you can flip it off and roll your eyes privately all you want. (Real life advice that I employ all the time haha)

      Depending on how much this is coming up I’d make a point of talking through these instances with your boss to see if some of these things can’t get smoothed over before they get dumped on you, too.

    5. fposte*

      Yeah, I’m with you; even if it sucks, rolling your eyes and huffing is a bad habit to get into as a response, and it’s not a good response to a manager. I’d try practicing another, less contemptuous go-to. Generally managers aren’t going to require delight at the news, so a surprised “Oh, boy” or “Oh, wow” is likely to be okay, as long as you follow it up by an “Okay, will do.” (And of course if there’s a reason other than “I don’t want to,” use your words to say why.)

      But also think about where you are in this job. Eyerolling is generally pretty significant, and most people don’t do it to their manager. Is this a sign that you’re done with it all and that’s starting to leak out? Is it time for you to start looking elsewhere?

  33. Not So Super-visor*

    Savvy or Eye Rolling?
    So we are in the process of hiring-in one of our current temps (YAY!). He’ll officially start Monday, so I sent him the last form that I need him to fill out on my end. I’m supposed to have him fill out basic info (address, phone #, SSN) and then I fill in the job specifics (Salary, shift, position) before sending it down to HR. I’ll be the first to admit that it’s duplicate work for the potential employee as it should all be information that was on the application that we make them fill out prior to the interviews even being scheduled. Anyway, I send it over to him, and he sends it back. He notes on the form that he is declining to provide his SSN as it is on his online application (which I don’t have access to once I move him into Hiring status.) I’ll admit that I am not that savvy in legalities on documents, so if HR asks me to fill out a form, I fill out a form.
    FWIW, while the guy does good individual work, he’s already gained the reputation of being a huge know-it all in the 90 days that he’s been here. I can’t decide if he’s the one being savvy about his security or if it’s an eye-roll worthy quirk. Either way, I sent the form along with his note to HR, and they can handle it.

    1. Artemesia*

      Asshole alert. This guy is going to be a total pill to work with. The worst hire I ever made was super well qualified and managed to alienate the central PTB within the first two weeks she was on board and did a lot of damage to our division.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      Eh, whatever. You did what I would have done. Usually HR can call to have it read it over the phone, which makes people feel safer. Of course it still gets typed in and is unprotected wherever it was entered, but that’s not your circus.

    3. Tardigrade*

      I would feel uncomfortable about providing my SSN on so many documents as well, but it is also a common thing to provide to your employer. I think you did the best think you could have done.

    4. Elizabeth H.*

      He may be a know-it-all jerk but I think not writing SSN on paper or emailed forms doesn’t correlate at all with jerkishness or non jerkishness. I don’t write my SSN on random forms either. I find that not only legitimate but wise. HR will call him to have him read it over the phone. I’ve done that so many times (taken someone’s SSN over the phone so that I can securely fax it to HR; instructing someone to call HR to read it over the phone etc.) It’s really normal.

      1. Jules the Third*

        +1 My husband won’t provide SSN if he can avoid it – HR and bank loans are about it. He’s good to work with.

        1. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

          Food for thought (and US-based disclaimer):
          SSNs are regularly used in the medical field as an extra layer of certainty to patient identity.

          My laboratory has three separate patients with the same first name, middle initial, surname, AND date of birth. We only know for certain they are separate people due to SSN.

          It can absolutely affect your healthcare if your records get attached to another patient’s. I don’t know how common this particular issue is across the board, but we’ve seen it happen with our clients. We even caught an error for one location before the diagnoses were provided. (Our lab doesn’t see the patients, just handles testing.)

    5. Seal*

      If you’re sending the forms via email, I don’t blame him for not wanting to include his SSN; too easy for hackers to get it that way (not that they can’t get it elsewhere, just that it’s particularly easy to hack email accounts). When I’ve been asked to provide mine for various legal documents, it’s always in person or over the phone, never by email. In fact, it’s always the place that needs my SSN not to send it by email rather than vice versa.

      Doesn’t mean that this guy ISN’T otherwise an asshole, though, just not necessarily for this.

      1. Observer*

        Exactly this.

        And your HR should stop asking for it on this form. This is the kind of data that should be in the minimum number of places.

    6. Mockingjay*

      SSNs are required for tax/withholding forms, as as proof for I9, nothing else – whether insurance, medical, or the company handbook signing statement. He’s being savvy about his security.

      I had issues with HR at a former company who used SSNs as IDs on every possible form and even incorporated it into our employee ID numbers. I refused to write it on any forms. I’ve been subject to identity theft twice due to national data breaches. That’s a goddamned nightmare to clean up. No one except the IRS gets my number these days.

      Your company should examine how they protect personally identifiable information. I’d suggest they update the forms they use and remove the SSNs.

      1. Natalie*

        You can’t require it for the I9 either – it’s an option, but you’re not allowed to discriminate among acceptable documents. I always use my passport because I’m lazy / efficient.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I’m the same. I don’t like having my SSN out in the ether, especially when so many organizations do not have proper policies for protecting confidential personal information.

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          You can’t require that someone provide a Social Security Card for the I9, but they do have to provide their SSN on the form.

          1. Natalie*

            Oh of course. Derp. I guess I connected “proof” to “SS card” in my mind, but right, you would have to provide the number on a few different forms probably.

    7. clow*

      My understanding is you can’t force someone to give you a SSN until after you hire someone. I never disclose mine, there is no reason why any company I apply for needs it until after hiring you because they only need it for tax purposes. I don’t think it is fair to judge him at all. He has no way of knowing how the info will be stored, who will view it, and how it will be disposed of.

      1. foolofgrace*

        If a company does a background check on you prior to the actual hiring, which is sometimes required, wouldn’t they need the SSN to get a credit report? Or can they get one without it?

    8. Bumblebee*

      He is being savvy about his security. I don’t feel comfortable having my SSN out in the open, either. Identity theft is a real pain to sort through. If he’s an otherwise pleasant person, I wouldn’t put too much thought into this.

    9. Sal*

      I work for the government, so we have more rules, but we are absolutely not allowed to send anyone’s (including our own) social security over unencrypted email.

      1. Observer*

        Technically, we’re not that strict. But, I’ve been beating people to always encrypt emails with personal info. And when they tell me “the recipient won’t like it” – which is often true, I advise them to point out to the recipient that this is FOR THEIR PROTECTION. Staff always responds “Good point.”

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I think HR should have known better. There are enough people out there who would object to giving their SS# online that it should not be a surprise to HR.

      I have space to indicate SSNs on my work computer. We don’t need them, we don’t use them. I refuse to take anyone’s social security number. I have enough to worry about on my computer.

    13. Ktelzbeth*

      I understand not wanting to send an SSN by email (I won’t either), but it sounds to me like his is already on some online document. Was the form you needed filled out a paper form or an online form? If paper, were you sending it intra-office, by USPS, carrying it yourselves, or by llama? The more secure the method you wanted him to use, the less sense it makes for him to refuse to do it because his SSN is on an online form.

  34. So long and thanks for all the fish*

    I’m a 4th year PhD student, and my group just found out that my advisor was denied tenure. Does anyone have any advice or insight into what I should do?

    1. Artemesia*

      I doubt the advisor wants to hear commiseration from students; you have a year to find new people to supervise the dissertation. A bummer.

        1. Anonanonanon*

          Would you want to find out that your career failure was being talked about on campus? It will probably just rub it in.

          1. Miri*

            It’s surprising to me that sympathy would be seen as rubbing it in, but I’m not in academia and I know the norms are different there. If I went for a promotion and didn’t get it, and someone who reported to me said “Oh, that’s a shame, I was sorry to hear that”, I can’t think of what would be hurtful about that. Different worlds I guess!

            1. catsaway*

              Not getting tenure is more akin to getting fired than not getting a promotion, and unless the people in your lab can find another lab to join they’re also getting fired, practically speaking.

              1. catsaway*

                Also, I realize that that comment isn’t very helpful/hopeful for the OP.
                I’m a current PhD student in a STEM field whose advisor briefly considered leaving so I spent some time thinking about contingency plans. If your advisor is leaving and you need resources (lab space, reagents, money to use equipment etc) prioritize that. Talk with your advisor and your dissertation committee about what you need to graduate – in particular in terms of data that needs to be collected and resources you’ll have to use to collect it. Talk to other faculty members with similar research interests to see if they’d be willing to take you on. As a 4th year student hopefully you’re closer to the data analysis/writing phase of things, which should make taking you on a student an easier sell.

            2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              Eh, being denied tenure is kind of world-shaking (in a bad way). It’s much worse than not receiving a promotion—it’s often effectively the same as being fired… which is why OP will likely need to find another advisor. Once NonTenuredAdvisor gets over the initial shock, they should ideally be placing their students with other profs.

              1. Trout 'Waver*

                I would strongly resist getting placed with another prof. It means you’re always that prof’s last priority. Do everything you can to graduate before your current prof leaves, even if it means putting in crazy hours. If you do get forced into another group, resist taking on a new project. Try to just write your thesis and be done with it. Starting a new project will add 2+ years to your timeline. Don’t assume anyone will advocate for you. Everyone has bigger issues and problems. Advocate strongly and forcefully for yourself.

                I know all this from first-hand experience. I got burn-out and depression dealing with having to change labs in the 4th year of my PhD and wound up never actually getting my PhD due to it.

    2. Simone R*

      That’s rough, I’m sorry! Your options differ by field-if you’re in a lab you’ll need more support than research that can be done in a library/archives. I’d reach out to the director of your program to ask what your options are.
      In my experience when a professor leaves an institution, the students have a couple options to continue their work. Professors can usually stay at a university for a year after their tenure application, so you have some time! You can get a co-advisor to come on board and transition over to them as time goes on. If you’re doing lab research you may be able to get space in someone else’s lab to finish up the work, and if your advisor moves to another institution they may be able to co-mentor you.
      But the program director will be able to tell you what your options are! It’s a rough situation, but it happens, things will work out.

      1. Anonanonanon*

        I’ve also seen students move with their mentor to the new institution but still get their degree from the original institution if they have already passed the candidacy exam.

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          Yes, this happens all the time at the university I work with. It totally depends on the field, the type of work, the advisor and what the advisor does next.

    3. Anonanonanon*

      Do nothing unless he brings it up. Look up the policy at your school about what happens if he leaves before you finish. I’m not sure what type of program you are in.

    4. Goloab*

      Do you know for sure that tenure was denied or did yor advisor just defer the tenure process? I know a prof whose department head recommended posponing the tenure application by a year because prof was dealing with unexpected family care needs which affected other things like securing a book contract (necessary for successful tenure application in this situation). Prof got tenure a year behind schedule, but it wasn’t a big deal.

      There can be legitimate reasons tenure is denied that don’t result in your advisor getting fired/resigning. Do you know if your advisor still has a contact for another year or two? Did you hear the news from your advisor directly?

      Since you’re a 4th year, it’s reasonable to ask for meeting with your advisor in which you map out a timeline for completing your degree. If advisor can’t see you through (or isn’t sure if they’ll still be around), you both need to plan for this. It’s pretty much the same if you had a big company project requiring higher-up input and your boss was leaving for another company. In that situation, you’d need to have a planning meeting for a smooth transition.

      1. So long and thanks for all the fish*

        For sure tenure was denied- I heard it from him. He’ll be allowed to stay for another year and change, and is pretty sure he’ll stay until then, but not certain.

    5. Amleta*

      What area are you in? (social sciences, humanities, engineering, etc.) That will really affect the situation. Are you funded by your advisor, or is it departmental funding (or none at all)? Are you on track to graduate at the end of next year? If so, this may not affect you at all; most institutions provide one further year for non-tenured faculty before they have to move on.

    6. AlmostAcademic*

      Definitely talk to your advisor, see what plans they have / if they have any set up. I’ve known advisors in the past who have moved institutions, and been able to negotiate keeping some grad students with them. Additionally, I would reach out to your program director to see what typically happens with students in this situation – is it up to you to find another mentor? What does the timeline and paperwork for that look like? What about your funding line, are there others available through the department that you can continue to work on?

      Best of luck, that’s a crummy situation to be in for everyone.

    7. Lisianthus*

      Ouch. This happened to me in my first year, so I empathize.

      As others have said, talk to your advisor — and committee, if you’re at that stage — ASAP. Things to work out differ by field and funding, but the big things are finding a new advisor, securing new funding if your funding is advisor-dependent, making sure your data are okay to use beyond the advisor switch, and dealing with finding committee members if not already secured. If, of course, there’s no chance of your advisor taking you along with them to a new institution or being able to work with you on remotely supervising the defense.

      Depending on your institutional structure, I would also check into seeking help from the DGS or student services area to work on time-to-degree issues. There may be a policy buried somewhere that can help you extend your time-to-degree and/or allow your advisor to remotely supervise the dissertation. If you have a competent department chair, they may also be of use in this regard. But note my caveat of “competent.” Especially if you get a sense that the chair and your advisor had/have issues.

      Frankly, my student services people were more helpful than the department chair, who didn’t lift a finger to help any students in a year where multiple faculty were denied tenure. Yet said chair was getting a course release to, y’know, be chair and deal with things like this.

      (why yes I am still bitter)

      And speaking from experience…secure your own oxygen mask first. No matter how good your relationships with the other advisees are, you should expect some turbulence among you because your lives have just been upended.

      Again, I empathize. Best of luck sorting it.

    8. Trout 'Waver*

      I replied to PCBH further down thread because I had a very similar experience that went disastrously. I just want to reiterate: Don’t assume anyone will look out for you. Advocate loudly and forcefully for yourself.

      1. Lisianthus*

        I’m sorry your experience went so disastrously, Trout ‘Waver.

        OP, while I hope things will go as well as possible for you, I wholeheartedly second Trout ‘Waver’s sentiment of not assuming anyone will look out for you and to advocate loudly and forcefully for yourself.

        If you can push yourself to finish in your advisor’s terminal year that might be the best thing to do but obviously I don’t know your field and whether that’s possible.

    9. sange*

      Talk to your advisor openly and honestly about your concerns, and ask if she has advice. She might already be planning on your behalf. I’ve seen this happen to a few colleagues in my PhD program and it sucks but doesn’t mean the end of your work!

    10. LG*

      The same thing happened to me when I was a 4th year PhD student. My advisor told our lab in January, and we all had to leave by the end of the year. I’m so sorry this happened to you.
      Trout ‘Waver made some excellent points earlier – if at all possible, push to finish before your supervisor leaves. Talk to your advisor/committee/department graduate head/chair/committee/TPTB ASAP and get from them written confirmation of how much more you need to do to be able to graduate given the circumstances. With my advisor’s support, I requested an emergency committee meeting the week after finding out, laid out all the results I had to date, proposed a set of additional experiments I felt could be reasonably accomplished before the end of the year, and with a few revisions, I got buy-in from my committee and graduate department. I worked like a maniac for the next few months, and I ended up being able to defend my thesis in October.
      If you won’t be able to finish up before your advisor leaves and you have to transfer to another lab, take into consideration who in the department your advisor has a good relationship with. They’re more likely to be sympathetic, but you’ll still need to work out an arrangement with them, e.g., mentoring, duration, funding for yourself and supplies, equipment availability. This is also more likely to be successful if you only need a few more months to finish.
      If your advisor finds another position, and you have the option of moving with them, expect lengthy delays. Getting a new lab properly set up is a lengthy and time-consuming process. My advisor secured another position within a few months, but it took him over 1 year to get the new lab up and running.
      No matter what, look into your funding situation. Is it tied to your advisor’s funding? Do you have your own and is it transferable? Does your department or institute have any bridge funding options? My external funding had strict requirements, and I ended up having to decline it. I applied for every funding option I had, was accepted for 1, and had to rely on it for my stipend for a few months. If you do have to transfer to another lab, it’ll be easier for you if you can come with some of your own funding.
      Once again, my sympathies and I hope it works out for you in the end.

  35. Jules*

    Do you have to respond to people who thanks you for helping them? I’ve always not responded since it’s typically just a ‘thanks’, but suddenly I have an paragraph of ‘thank you for doing XYZ and getting us going, blah blah blah’. Do I need to say, ‘You are welcome?’ This is a director level person, so I don’t want to think that I don’t appreciate his thanks.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Yes, I’d say something short like “no problem” or “it was our pleasure” if somebody has taken the time to write a long personal paragraph. If they’re like like “thanks for your help!” I might not reply.

      1. Natalie*

        For whatever it’s worth, I would probably avoid “no problem” because some people really, really hate it and it could come across as a little flip. I use it all the time in more casual contexts, but responding to a director in particular it wouldn’t be my first choice.

        1. Arjay*

          Thank you for saying this, because I am definitely one of those people. I try to accept it as intended, but my initial first instinct is always, always, “Well if it was no problem to you, I don’t know why I bothered saying thank you at all.”

    2. KG*

      For more than a brief “thanks,” I usually respond, “Thanks, X! I appreciate the kind words.” Depending on the person and circumstances, I sometimes add, “It was a pleasure working with you on this,” or “Always happy to help!”

      If the original email was substantive enough, I forward it to my boss with a note saying, “Wanted to share this positive feedback from X with you.” Every boss I’ve ever had has liked seeing positive feedback from others.

      Then (again, if it was substantive) I save the email and refer back to it at performance review time.

    3. Specialk9*

      Yes. The response to “thank you” is some form of “you’re welcome”. I’ve been reviewing this with my two year old lately, and it’s applicable in business too.

    4. Someone else*

      Something briefly acknowledging it, if it were a big long thank you is probably a good idea. But unneeded for shorter things. Like if it’s one sentence or just “thanks” I think you’re fine not replying because you don’t want to trigger a loop of them thanking you and you thanking them for thanking you and…blah.But if they wrote a longish personalized note,acknowledging that with one sentence is worthwhile.

    5. OtterB*

      I don’t think you need to respond to short thanks. For a longer or more personalized one, especially to someone above you in the hierarchy, I’d probably send back something like “Glad it was helpful.”

      And I agree with the person who suggested forwarding it to your immediate boss.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      “Most certainly, anytime!”
      Depending on the situation, you might be able to work in something like “That was an interesting question, I am glad you asked. I learned a few more things.”

      I would not say it to a higher ranking person, but sometimes my boss thanks me and indicates it was above and beyond. I will say something like, “I am here to make life easier.” Or I will indicate that it is something so different from what I usually do that I enjoyed it, if this is true.

      Stick to the truth. If you draw a blank, “Most certainly! You are welcome!” can come off very nicely.

  36. Mirth & Merry*

    Question related to filing in actual applications for a job. I feel like I have a good strategy for the salary questions but for references I’m not sure how to *not* give the info (at this time) Does anyone have a good sentence or two that basically says “you can have them when it’s worth risking my current job over?” Should I just suck it up and give them the info?

    Grateful for any suggestions/anecdotes/stories

    random info if it helps: This is my third role but only in 2 companies so I can give them info for my 1st manager but my 2nd manager and current manager both work for current company, I’m confident my current manager wouldn’t force me out for looking for a new job but his bosses might (they are the “cut of your nose to spite your face” type) the jobs aren’t in the same industry and the cities are about 2 hours away so lower chances of people knowing each other, it’s a pdf that I will just type into so no worries about “that’s not a phone number, you can’t put that here”

    1. lisalee*

      Could you provide a coworker from your current job instead, and just note that you don’t want your supervisor to know you’re searching?

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I don’t know if this is the best way to go about this, but I’ve gone one of two ways: if I need to provide a phone number into an online form and don’t have any way to include a comment, I’ll just use my own office number (and can update that contact info when/if we get to the reference stage). If I’m able to include text, I’ll say something like “contact information for current employer will be provided at a later stage in the hiring process”. I’m sure hiring managers get that candidates don’t want to jeopardize their current job, and if someone was bothered by me not providing sensitive information before I’ve even talked to them, I don’t think I’d want to work there.

  37. Help With Organization*

    What systems/tricks do you all use to keep yourself and your workspace organized? I am an administrative assistant at a medium sized nonprofit and wear a lot of hats. My organization also tends to use a lot of paper. I need to keep myself better organized- my boss has confidence in my work, but has expressed that there are others that perceive my to be disorganized and scattered due to the way my desk looks. I’d appreciate any tips that you might have!

    1. Workerbee*

      Assuming you have to keep using all that paper and can’t switch to an online system (unless you can, slowly, infiltratingly!), any way of getting the org to spring for either under-desk file cabinets or a top-of-desk shelving system? Since they’re the ones concerned about perception…

      To me, I see a lot of papers, I think hey, that person’s got a lot to do!

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Color coding!

      Have one color for each type of task and use it in your inbox, for your paper files, etc.

    3. Elizabeth H.*

      Do you have a filing cabinet? I do but my desk is still an unbelievable mess. I also really like the stacking paper trays that can sit on your desk or shelf, or a hanging file box, or the kind of file box where it has different sections and is graduated so you can see the top of the papers in each section (like a magazine rack, hope it’s clear what I am talking about).
      Also, even if you want to keep papers in a pile on your desk you could still put them in folders, which will look better even if you still have them “out.”

    4. DG*

      File folders and a label maker. For lots of paper, grab some file folders and label one for every project. You can stash all the required documents in there, see the neatly labeled file, and leave them stacked on your desk without them looking too messy.

      Life saver.

    5. OhBehave*

      I started using file folders labeled with the day of the week. I was finding that I had tasks to do on Wednesday and it was Monday. Just shuffling the papers all over my desk didn’t work! It’s been a vast improvement. I’m hyper organized so this put me at ease. I have an organizer that sits on my desk. I stand up the files in order there and it works for me. The same can be done for different projects. I also have file folders for those which I will then put into the day folder if I need to follow up.

  38. rosenstock*

    how do you know when your work is being affected enough by mental illness that you need FMLA? i think i’m reaching that point but it’s so busy here that i’m afraid to talk to my doctor or boss about it, but i’ve been struggling.

    1. Nbc*

      You figure it out with your doc/therapist. You’ll likely need ongoing documentation from them so best to be on the same page from the get-go.

    2. Tardigrade*

      I don’t know the specifics of FMLA, but I think you’re going to have to talk to your doctor to provide the required documentation.

    3. Madeleine Matilda*

      I think you have answered your own question. If you feel you are struggling, talk with your doctor. One of my staff went through this last fall. She took about a month of FMLA for mental health treatment. She said it was the best decision she could have made.

      1. rosenstock*

        thanks Madeleine. i’m struggling daily to focus on basic tasks, i’m irritable even though i’m usually friendly (and i like everyone!), i am overwhelmed by my workload and although i’m usually very much on top of everything i’ve been dropping the ball recently so maybe it’s time. i’m just worried/guilty that my workload would be passed onto my peers in my absence.

        1. Tardigrade*

          I’m sorry you’re feeling this way. Don’t feel guilty about making your health a priority; your coworkers will deal with things.

    4. Trillion*

      Please please please talk to your doctor about it.

      Personally, I find that when I least WANT to talk about my mental illness is when I NEED most to talk about it.

  39. Bereaved and Confused*

    My long-term boyfriend (together for several years) died suddenly a few weeks ago. We weren’t formal “domestic partners” (didn’t live together) so I wasn’t granted any bereavement leave. The funeral was local and on the weekend so my boss didn’t see a need to give me any regular leave, either. I asked for a couple days to get my head together and was told we were too busy to spare me (it is a major crunch time that will continue for the next couple months).

    I am extremely distraught (this person was the love of my life to date) and am struggling at work and am not sure how to handle it. My boss has relayed complaints that I am being unprofessional by crying at work (I am not breaking down and sobbing; but will tear up now and then and end up with tears running down my face; our workspace is all open plan so I can’t do this privately; I can avoid the tears in meetings but do feel the sadness coming on now and then when I’m sitting at my desk working by myself). My productivity is already not great because I’m upset, so excusing myself every time I feel a couple tears coming on is only going to make it worse. And again, I’d be more than happy to take a few days off to go home and regroup and hopefully come back more composed, but I’ve been told that’s out of the question. What should I do? I can’t make myself not-sad right now, and I’m doing my best considering I’ve been told I can’t take time off to grieve.

          2. Kelly*

            Only knife three tires. Four-insurance will cover it. Three-they do not cover. Not that I have first hand knowledge of such rules.

      2. Luna*

        Definitely take sick time if you have it, and if you think your boss will ask for a note you can probably schedule a visit with your primary care doctor and explain the situation to them & ask for a note just in case.

        I’m sorry sorry that you’re having to deal with this on top of losing your boyfriend.

    2. lisalee*

      I’m so sorry. This is not normal at all. Do you have an HR department? Perhaps you could go talk to them with the framing that you are “confused” about the bereavement policy, given what a great personal loss you just experienced.

      1. Specialk9*

        What the literal FRACK is wrong with this horrible person?! Oh please let karma be real.

    3. Trillion*

      Oh my god, I’m so sorry. I can’t believe your boss is being so horrible about it, too. Hell, I’ve seen plenty of people take PTO for a day when their PET dies.

      Any boss who understands that you’re a human being should let you take your PTO (or even a few days unpaid if you don’t have PTO) to regroup.

      This is horrible. I’m so sorry.

    4. PB*

      I’m so sorry for your loss.

      Your boss is being a jerk. Regardless of your legal status, you lost a partner suddenly and unexpectedly. You did everything right by asking for time off, and of course you can’t help crying sometimes. They’re not accommodating your needs. I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

      As for what to do, do you have an EAP? Talking to someone might help. Is there any way you can go over your boss’s head, and would it be likely to help? I recommend this with care, since going over their head would almost definitely piss them off, but these are extraordinary circumstances.

    5. Lil Fidget*

      My suggestion would be to take sick leave. It’s rarely declined in my experience – you can imply that you’re throwing up or having bathroom explosions if you need to. I had to do this when I was crying at my desk because of a family death and couldn’t get vacation time approved.

      1. zora*

        This^^ Your boss is being absolutely awful. Letting people have a couple of days for any close and sudden death is pretty basic, let alone your close partner!!!

        I would just call him at exactly your start time and tell him you have to take a sick day. And do that for a couple of days in a row. Don’t even say why, but if he asks, lie your ass off and say you are puking everywhere. What is he going to do? He can scream and yell on the phone as much as he wants that you have to come in, but he can’t force you. Just take care of yourself right now and don’t listen to this glassbowl. There might be consequences later, but you can deal with those later when you’ve had some time to grieve.

        I’m so sorry for your loss, sending all the hugs.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I am so, so sorry. I have major issues with a lot of bereavement leave policies because of how they try to delineate relationships. This is an example of that; you didn’t live together, therefore his death doesn’t “qualify”? Screw that.

      It is also short-sighted. You are grieving. Your work product is going to suffer. If you can take sick time, please do. As Wannabe Disney Princess mentioned, if your boss would demand a doctor’s note, then get one– even from your general practitioner if you don’t have a therapist or grief counselor.

      1. Rookie Manager*

        Very much agree. While naming the relationship can sometimes give an idea of closeness ‘friend’ or ‘cousin’ or ‘boyfriend’ doesn’t actually say how much you feel for that person amd how much you will grieve.

        I quit one job over my managers reaction to my request for a couple of days to attend a granparents funeral. A couple of months earlier my partners manager showed so much compassion after the death of a close friend (it was a tough few months) that he made an awful time so much better.

        B&C, I am so sorry for your loss. Please speak to HR and if needed take sick time. Your boss is being an ass.

    7. ZSD*

      I’m so sorry for both your loss and the horrible way your boss is dealing with it. You should absolutely be given time off to grieve.
      I know this sounds extreme, but are you in a financial situation such that you could quit the job and take a month or so to grieve properly? Were you the beneficiary on your boyfriend’s life insurance?
      If this isn’t possible, I think you just need to be firmer with your boss about needing to take time off. They can’t deny you time to support your mental health just because someone died at an inconvenient time for them! Do you have HR you could get on your side?

    8. Murphy*

      I’m so sorry for your loss, and that your workplace is being so unsupportive during such a difficult time. They’re being unreasonable. Do you have an HR that you can talk to?

      If I were you I’d be job searching. Once you feel up to it of course.

    9. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I am so sorry.

      Does your company offer an EAP? This is the kind of situation they are designed for – they can point you to resources that will help you through this difficult time.

      That being said – since they “can’t spare you”, could you work from home? At least then you could grieve privately.

      1. Jules the Third*

        +10000

        This is great advice. EAP will keep it private, and WFH will give you some relief.

        Internet hugs to you if you want them, I am so sorry for your loss.

    10. Bereaved and Confused*

      Thank you, everyone. We are a small company and don’t have HR. We don’t have a formal bereavement policy for that matter, but as a practical matter my boss will usually go ahead and give people time off to attend a loved one’s funeral (one day if it’s local or up to a few days if travel is needed).

      My boss is actually an excellent boss as far as work mentorship and management goes (to the extent that I don’t want to leave because in most situations I absolutely LOVE my job and work), but his solution for all non-medical personal difficulties is to throw yourself into work even harder, so the idea that someone might be too upset to work is completely foreign to him.

      (Also, no one really takes sick days here unless they are in the hospital, they might just work at home if running a fever or otherwise contagious.)

      2. The Person from the Resume*

        I recommend that you get the flu and work from home for a week but not a full days work because that’s unrealistic with the flu.

        1. Matilda Jefferies*

          This is a good idea, and much more reasonable and practical than my ranty advice below!

      3. Sunshine Brite*

        Have you told him that his solution isn’t your solution? I’m worried you will end up much worse off putting yourself last. I dunno if I could work for someone who approached me that way about my grief.

      4. Friday*

        I’m so very sorry for your loss. Please do talk to your doctor… maybe she could give a medical recommendation for you taking time off that somehow qualifies for FML (am NOT a doctor or lawyer, just a wishful thinker that wants this to be a Thing).

        1. Natalie*

          FMLA only applies to 50+ employees, so since they are a small company it is likely not in play here. But, maybe a doctor’s note would be enough mentally for the boss?

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Unfortunately FMLA wouldn’t cover this scenario—generally speaking, it’s for caretaking or medical leave, and grief/bereavement often doesn’t fit easily into the legal definitions for a medical condition.

          But yes, boss is being a jerk. His entire way of dealing with this is cartoon-villain levels of bad.

          1. Arjay*

            Yes, my FMLA coverage to care for my mom ended on the day she died. The company pays a week of bereavement leave, and I took an extra week unpaid (our PTO runs concurrently with FMLA, so I was PTO bankrupt) without any blowback because I don’t work for monsters. And when I came back, I was still moving pretty slow mnetally and emotionally and they were very kind as I eased back into work.

      5. General Ginger*

        I am so sorry for your loss. Your boss is being a real jerk in this situation, and refusing to acknowledge that his method of dealing with grief or hardship is far from universal. I’m echoing the solution of “get the flu” for a week for the short-term, and do talk to your doctor or a counselor or mental health professional.

      6. Observer*

        Your boss is being an idiot.

        Having said that, I think work from home is your best bet. Tell him that the only way to keep your productivity up is to work from home so no one is bothered by your “unprofessionalism.”

    11. The Person from the Resume*

      I’m sorry for your loss. In my opinion, this would be a fair use of several sick days. It seems you have nothing to lose since you’re getting negative feedback for your performance at the moment. Getting your head together might improve your performance.

      Also your boss is awful and will not change, and you should probably be job searching. Obviously a terrible time for you but he’s so unsympathetic to understandable pain and distraction and it sounds like he’s judging your performance as not good at the moment. I think it’s time to start planning your escape from that.

    12. KR*

      Your boss is being a JERK. Honestly you’re not doing anything wrong here. If he brings complaints of crying to you again, honestly I would probably say something like, “Why yes, I’m rather upset my long term partner died and I haven’t had time to properly process his death.” “Well, we’re so busy at work currently I didn’t think we could spare the time for me to take a break to compose myself.” “Well I’m pretty upset and sad, so that tends to happen.”

      But, use these wisely. You know your situation. Sick time is a great idea. Also, give yourself some credit. For how little support you are getting from work you’re dealing with this wonderfully. You have every right to be sad and confused and uncertain and whatever else you may be feeling – you lost someone you spent a huge chunk of your life with. Heartbreak and this level of trauma can cause physical symptoms and physical pain. We’re here to listen if you need it, and a support group/therapy/ect may be helpful to you too.

      Much love.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Agreed. If you can pull it off, I’d say something like the above while giving him a level, flat stare.

    13. Matilda Jefferies*

      Oh, no. I’m so sorry – both about your boyfriend, and about the way your company is treating you. That’s really awful.

      Honestly, I can’t see any way out of this other than to just quit, if that’s even remotely possible for you. These are *terrible people* that you’re working for. Not only will they not give you any time off to grieve the death of your life partner, but they’re telling you that YOU are being unprofessional because you’re getting teary sometimes? Seriously, there are not enough swear words in the world to express how I feel about that. And I don’t know about you, but this isn’t something I would be able to forgive them for – six months, a year, two years from now, they’ll still be the assholes who wouldn’t let you take time off when your boyfriend died.

      I think this may be the first time I’ve ever recommended to someone on AAM that they “just quit,” because it’s such a huge thing to do. But in your case, you need to do some grieving and some self-care right now – and again, it’s not like everything is going to be great for you at this workplace after the urgency is over. If you have any kind of a financial cushion at all, this is the time to use it. Walk out the door, don’t look back, and burn that motherf***ing bridge to the ground. If anyone ever asks you why you left this job without another one lined up, you simply tell them that they refused to give you time off when your partner died. No reasonable person would have a problem with that.

      I’m so, so sorry for all of this. I wish I had more helpful advice about how to work through it all if you can’t leave right away! Please, whatever you do, take good care of yourself right now. <3

      1. Espeon*

        This. Just this. If it’s feasible for you, sort your desk/computer etc stuff out and walk. Just walk. Scrawl a resignation note on a post-it and leave this trash company behind. Their treatment of you is appalling.

        I am so, so sorry <3

    14. Sunshine Brite*

      I’m so sorry for your loss and the compounding of not being able to grieve. Has your boss always been this unsupportive? How about the company culture in general?

      I worry if this level of stress continues that your grief will only become more complicated and consuming. That’s not normal for others to not be understanding about a loss of this magnitude without at least trying to accommodate leave or being apologetic if it’s not possible.

    15. I'm Not Phyllis*

      That’s awful – I’m so sorry. Even if you aren’t “officially” allowed bereavement, any reasonable boss would understand that you need a few days off. If you had gotten sick they would have made it work right? Would it be worth having a conversation with your boss again?

    16. Travelling Circus*

      I’m so sorry for your loss, and that your company is being so horrible. Would you be able to take a few sick days, if they won’t grant you leave?

    20. Elizabeth H.*

      I am so sorry for your tragic loss.

      Do you have any sick time or PTO time? Can you just tell your boss that you are sick and not coming to work? Even if you have to call in a few days.
      I wonder if you could also see a therapist or a psychiatrist and get a doctor’s note from them that excuses you from work (unspecified) which might be something that would register with your boss.
      What do your coworkers think, do they understand your situation or are they horrible people too? What kind of person could POSSIBLY complain about you being “unprofessional” at work by crying? Do they know that your boss is forcing you to stay in the office? I can’t imagine.

      You said your boss is excellent in other ways so I also wonder if you could consider just telling him (possibly in an email or letter, so he can’t argue/respond/debate, which would be further upsetting) that you’ve recognized his approach to non-physical illnesses is to throw himself into work, but that many people don’t feel this way and need time to themselves, and you are one of them, and you will be taking several days at home of bereavement leave. Is he going to fire you? If you truly think that you would be fired for doing this, I would also advise quitting as soon as possible.

    21. Artemesia*

      Your boss is a monster. I hope that when you are a more even keel you can find a new job. It is totally outrageous to now allow bereavement leave in your circumstance, and monstrous to force you to come to work and then berate you for being distraught. These people are monsters.

      Clearly you feel you can’t risk your job which is totally understandable. Please ignore this nonsense as much as possible; go inside your head and look out as if these people were Nazis and you just have to lie low to avoid their wrath and please find a way to get out of there. Consider moving to another area.

      So sorry you have suffered such a profound loss and then are being tormented by these psychopaths.

    22. Karo*

      I have no words for how awful this is. I am so, so sorry for your loss and have no advice other than to job search when you feel up to it. This is horrifying.

    23. Former Govt Contractor*

      Jerk-ass boss can’t have it both ways. Tell him if he won’t give you time off to grieve properly, or work from home, then he’s going to have to give you a pass when it comes to crying at work. He did not hire a robot.

    24. Sabrina Spellman*

      I’m so sorry! But how unreasonable are your supervisors that they’d rather hear complaints about you crying than let you have a few days to get yourself together?

    25. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Oh my God, I’m so sorry you’re going through this. Your boss, and anyone else who knows what you’re going through and has the nerve to complain, are utter jerks!

    26. Bereaved and Confused*

      To all who responded, I am so incredibly grateful. I am not sure yet what to do (this experience is certainly clouding what had been a very rosy view of my boss and workplace, to put it mildly), but it is incredibly validating to hear, across the board, that my feelings/reactions at a time like this are entirely normal and the treatment I am getting is very unkind and Not Normal.

      I don’t think I want to make any drastic changes like quitting on the spot (actually, being at the office helps with my sense of normalcy, so long as I’m not being criticized for the occasional tears or slightly less productive days), but I am going to look into therapy/grief counseling and hope to be able to get recommendations (and documentation if needed) from a professional about what I need for self-care during this time.

      Thank you again!

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Take care of yourself and consider hitting up the weekend thread tomorrow for additional support/self care suggestions.

      2. foolofgrace*

        I think you’re making the right choice in not just out-and-out quitting. If you can’t get time off, and it sounds like it would hurt more than help because of the hard time you’ll get from the boss, I say just let yourself cry at your desk if you need to! When people inquire, you can say “I just lost the love of my life and I can’t get any time off”. Sniff sniff, dab eyes with tissue. Screw them. What are they going to do, fire you? I’m so sorry for your loss and your work troubles.

        1. Bereaved and Confused*

          Oh! That script is a great start.

          I was thinking I could maybe be more proactive about this and go talk to each of the people who has caught me crying (I’m not sure who complained) and say something like:

          “Hey, I know I was really upset when you stopped by my desk the other day. My long-term boyfriend died unexpectedly a few weeks ago, and it’s been a really hard time. I wasn’t able to get any time off approved because of our crunch time, so I’m muddling through as best I can. I wasn’t upset about your question or any work items. Thanks in advance for your patience and understanding while I’m working through this, but please do continue to come talk to me about work matters, working actually helps me a lot.”

          1. Totally Minnie*

            That’s a really good way to phrase it. Try starting with the most gossipy of your coworkers and let them spread it around the office for you. And with any luck, it might actually shame your boss into giving you some time off if it becomes something the whole office is talking about.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Yep, yep, yep. Do not cover up your boss’ behavior. Let the cookies crumble where they may.

              I belong to a group. The group had a requirement that I do X. Under ordinary times this would have been fine. But my husband had died a few days earlier. I. could. not. do. X. The group leader is a well respected and much loved person. He could not understand my refusal to do X and told me I had to do X.
              Word went around, “Loved Leader is telling NSNR to do X! Can YOU imagine!”
              One of the widows in the group approached the leader and laid it out in crystal clear language. I had no idea she would do that. It came from out of the blue. I only learned she did it after the fact.
              Loved Leader changed his mind very quickly. I no longer had to do X. I could do much, much easier A and be done with it.

              Let other people help you handle this.

              Very sorry for your loss. Cry when you need to. We have tears for a reason. Tears cause a chemical reaction in our brain that helps to keep our brains healthy. It feels like the tears won’t stop and in some ways they don’t. But eventually you won’t find yourself so soggy and the fog will lift gradually. Meanwhile, if you need to cry, then that is a perfectly normal and healthy response to a huge sadness.

              Suggestion, perhaps you can ask your boss to work half days for a week or two. This would give you something to do AND give you down time all in the same stroke.

    27. WorkingOnIt*

      I’m so sorry this is happening to you and for the loss of your partner. This is immensley cruel to refuse you time off and then criticise you for crying. Are you seeing a bereavement counsellor? You should be able to get time off for doctor’s appointments, so I’m wondering if you can do the same for a counsellor, especially as you can frame it as dealing with your ‘non-professional’ (entirely natural and normal) actions? Alternatively, I don’t know how this works in the US, but could you get a doctor to sign you off work for a couple of days, and perhaps ask that you have regular time off for bereavement counselling and a certain amount of days per week working from home? Where I am they’d be able to sign you off for stress, and you could send the note in, and as a doctor’s signed you off there’s little your work can do.
      Above all I hope you can see a counsellor as your boss is making an already diffcult time that more stressful.

    28. Bow Ties Are Cool*

      Your boss is a jackass. If you have sick time, check your company policy on use of sick time. You may be able to use it for mental health purposes.

      I’m sorry for your loss.

    29. Totally Minnie*

      I’m so, so sorry for your loss.

      Your boss is a ginormous glassbowl. I’ll never understand supervisors who think grief is only valid if you had a legal or biological relationship with someone.

      Do you have access to any mental health care coverage as part of your benefits? If you do, maybe you can schedule an appointment with someone and get a doctor’s note saying that you need to be on medical leave.

      If it helps, know that we’re all mentally punching your boss in the face right now.

    30. Hannah*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. Your reaction is totally normal, as is your expectation that you should be given a few days off to grieve.

      I don’t have any additional advice to add to what has already been said, but I hope your boss sits on a cheese grater.

    31. valentine*

      This is so, so awful. There is something particularly terrible about discounting the need for a weekend that became bereavement rather than recharging time. Think about how much time you need away from work or at least from the office and then go back to this jerkface and say you want to try x days off and/or y days working remotely, after which you can return refreshed. (If it would help you, maybe you can spend some of this time working not at home, but in a library/park/botanical garden, among yet not in the company of others). If he says no, offer a backup: shaking up your schedule, especially if the tears are predictable or you know you can work z amount of time at a stretch. Maybe shifting what days constitute your weekend, if this would give you serene space, because the lack of support is an added burden.

  40. Funny Cide*

    My coworker whose role is a half-step above mine (but isn’t my supervisor in any way) is leaving her role for a different one within our organization. I interviewed for her position when I came on board and we started a week apart. We have worked closely to support our team and manager over the almost a year we’ve been here. I would love to move into her role, and feel really confident in my abilities to do it – there were honestly a lot of times I had to pull her weight on projects, too. What’s a great way to bring this up to our manager? I think she’d be really open to the suggestion, but don’t know how to start that conversation.

    1. SCAnonibrarian*

      Hey BossPerson. I don’t know if you remember this, but back when StepUp and I joined the company, I initially applied for that position also. Now that she’s moving into another department, I’d love to be considered for StepUp’s Official Position Title again. I’ve been working with StepUp closely since we’ve been hired, and I’ve already worked on x, y, and z aspects of her job, so I feel like I would be able to move into the role quickly and competently. What do I need to do to put my hat into the ring?

      1. Funny Cide*

        This sounds great and so straightforward! We’re a pretty informal team so I think it won’t be a big deal, but I still get nervous about these things. I did hear from another coworker when we ate lunch today that when we were both hired, they all kind of raised their eyebrows at which positions we filled and that my other coworkers have felt I would be excellent at the position, so I’m feeling pretty good about my chances.

  41. Nervous Accountant*

    A few weeks ago I posted about clients who request female accountants and got some pretty good feedback and insight on that.

    So this happened a few weeks ago–last week, for the first time ever (IME any way), someone requested a male accountant. The client felt the (female) accountant was being too sexual and flirtatious with her husband. Coworker was not like that. (We don’t record phone calls but we take her word for it).

    The client had sent some nasty emails to my cw calling her unprofessional and lacking business ethics…so we reassigned the client to a male accountant and were joking around that if this one doesn’t work out (i.e., the husband doesn’t like his wife talking to a male), we’d be screwed. Cz…..taxes are so super sexy…we had a good laugh at that part, but I did/do feel super bad for the client and her spouse.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I would feel worse for the female accountant! This client lady sounds unhinged. I kind of doubt the accountant was flirting with her husband, TBH.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Let me clarify: the reason I’m side-eyeing the client is because she requested “a male accountant” rather than a different female accountant. If I really believed a service person was flirting with my spouse A) I would make it my spouse’s problem, not the accountants, but more importantly B) I might say “not Dyann” but I would never say “no women.”

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        Nah she just laughed it off. We come across a few nuts here and there often. We know it’s not personal. I feel bad for the couple bc they have serious relationship issues that need to be worked on.

        Had another client wish death on a colleague bc we didn’t magically predict something. It’s unfortunate people can be so awful.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Please tell me that at least the wife works at the same place as the husband.

      Not that it makes this okay, but if she’s not also working there and she is this involved, then woah.

    3. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      There are people out there who are not normal. This would qualify as possible sign of one. Roll your eyes. and honestly, I’d be wondering if the client was worth keeping.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I wish. Only thing that gets clients fired is if they refuse to pay more for services. It’s super easy for them to stop using us but we can’t dump Them.

    5. Boredatwork*

      You’re posts are just so amusing. I can’t even begin to comment on clients requesting female accountants. It sounds like you’re doing individual income tax, so when do they even see their tax preparer? Do they just need to hear a female voice over the phone?!

      I look forward to another Friday and another reason I am so glad I’m out of public accounting!

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Lol I actually do like my job & colleagues (most of the time) despite my posts here!

        I was gobsmscked at the idea of requesting an accountant based on gender but I guess that was discussed when I initially posted about it. IME it’s been so that clients can be pushy but others gave great insight in to it.

  42. UI-Curious*

    Looking for general advice and suggestions. I’m 10 years into a nice cushy government job with no chance of change or promotion for the next 10 years or so (barring wild circumstances) and I’m already bored off my nut with my job. If I have to job search and leave my system to advance anyway, then why not just make a real change.

    I have been interested in UI in an intellectual way (I work with the general public trying to use public internet computers and free apps and … oof.) But looking at the post from the UX expert has made me realize that UI and UX and even UX Research (which sounds PERFECT as a job) tend to all get conflated in actual hiring situations, so… there’s a lot I’m going to need to learn in order to be employable.

    So here’s what I want to know: 1) are there likely to be UI/UX jobs in 2-5 years, to give me study time to learn what I need? 2) Are there many actual full time with benefits jobs, or are they mostly contract positions? Because I’m the health-care-insurance provider for my family and I can’t lose that. 3) How do I start learning what I will need – I currently know nothing about coding or visual software at all – general info articles are listing names of software or programs, but I don’t have enough money to pay for them (per government job) and I really work and learn much better with some sort of formal structure or lessons. Is it a hopeless idea?

    Thank you all!

    1. EB*

      There was a UX designer in the knowledge sharing post that Alison had yesterday– check it out! It was toward the top of all the comments. I’m a graphic designer with some interest in that field as well and thought it was helpful.

      1. UI-Curious*

        Yeah, I read all those with interest – that section of Q&A was what made me think that I might actually be able to do this as a job, but I wanted a bit more specific advice if anyone is able to weigh in. Someone else today, further down the thread, is asking about graphic design, and I’m watching that bit as well; there seems like there is a lot of overlap with those knowledge bases.

  43. April*

    I’ve been at my job for 7 months now and I just don’t know about it. It’s really clique-y and there is no team work. People don’t say “hi” unless I say hi. I could put in a little more effort, but isn’t it a 2 way street?
    I feel bad, but then hear stories about how they don’t like other people or how some of them even ran people away from the job! So maybe it’s just a toxic place?

    Any thoughts?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I’d try to focus 100% on the job, doing my part and going home to be social with my friends and family. There are some jobs where everybody’s there for the paycheck and that’s okay. Be civil but no need to be overly friendly if it’s not being reciprocated. Toxic is if they’re like, actively attacking you.

    2. Tardigrade*

      Could this possibly be a culture clash? If the people who already work there are mostly introverts and/or need to be hyper-focused on their work, then not saying “hi” makes sense and isn’t an indication of toxicity… unless they’re treating you poorly in other ways?

    3. A Person*

      Is there really high turnover? In my toxic workplace, people were not friendly right off the bat. It wasn’t until I was in around six months that people (well the ones who stayed) started warming up. A lot of people were spending their energy just trying to survive the toxicity / looking for new jobs. They warmed up when I started visibly looking frazzled/like I was one of them.

      Or it could be low turnover and they’re not used to new people?

      1. Lil Fidget*

        That’s true, we have a rotating cast of junior level employees and it’s hard to be super enthusiastic to each of them, when most of them are gone in six months. I’m not as friendly as I used to be (although of course I’m always polite!).

        1. A Person*

          Looking back, I can see that I probably annoyed the heck out of people walking around all smiley and chipper and energetic and positive as one does when one is starting a new job and is happy and hopeful.

          I try to be kind to the new people who come in acting the same way. But man it’s hard sometimes when I’m feeling all beat down and tired and discouraged about my job search.

        2. Pollygrammer*

          You’re in a position where you don’t really have to care what they think of you, which can sometimes be fun. I would switch up “hi” for weird random noises or really dated slang myself.

      2. Luna*

        Yeah it’s hard for me to be too friendly with new employees right now, because I’m worried they will then want to chat more and ask me questions about our boss and the company and I won’t know how to respond. I don’t want to poison them by telling them about all the toxicity right away, or get a reputation myself for being too negative- but I also don’t want to lie and act like everything is fine.

        So maybe they are avoiding getting to know you, but that doesn’t mean it’s anything personal.

    4. Earthwalker*

      Has there been a layoff? I once entered a company shortly after they’d had a huge and emotional layoff and the environment was just as you describe. I’m sure part of my coworkers’ upset was because my hiring so soon after the big layoff appalled them. They were also afraid there could be another layoff and were probably hoping that the new guy – me – would end up out the door first. I wasn’t “one of us” until I survived the next layoff and a new crop of new hires came for everyone to cold-shoulder. Even then it wasn’t a friendly place. It would have been better if I had started sooner to seek a less tense and unstable workplace.

  44. lollyscrambler*

    I’m burnt out on job searching again and it wasn’t even my job search! My partner had a job interview and since relevant opportunities rarely come up in libraries he did crazy amounts of prep. He asked me to come up with questions for no fewer than 6 mock interviews which I carried out for him on top of him doing a tonne of prep reviewing their website, mission statement, talking to people for advice etc etc. On the day they only asked interview questions about the line management aspect of the job (his weakest area) and relating to a project which wasn’t mentioned in any of the documentation on the job they provided or their website so it was all for nothing. Countless people have generic line management skills and very few people have specialist library skills but they asked literally nothing about the latter. It was so obvious they hadn’t got together to compare questions and it is so frustrating that he is still stuck in his toxic job despite doing everything possible. I did go through many questions about line management but I guess it wasn’t enough.

    1. lollyscrambler*

      He did say that he feels a lot better prepared for other interviews now and doesn’t seem bitter but I can’t help but feel bad because I was rejected by 20+ jobs before finally getting out of the toxic workplace (where he still works) and have all the feels about how interviews don’t seem to put any effort into coming up with questions that make sense for the job when as a job seeker you have to kill yourself preparing.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Some places are bad at interviewing. And you didn’t waste your time, because practice always helps.

    3. grace*

      My boyfriend has been “job searching” for several months too – he finally decided to take a role in a different field, and ohhhh boy, it has caused so many issues with us. So I feel your pain! Sometimes I think it’s harder on the loved ones of the job hunter, because we can’t even do anything about the problems – just watch and offer advice if we’re asked for it.

  45. AnonAndOn*

    Unemployment thread. Feel free to post about what’s going on in your efforts to return to work.

    My updates: Still at part-time temp job. This job will have an end date so I’m still looking for work – hopefully long-term and permanent.

    I have a question: On my resume I list temp jobs as “Acme Looniversity (via Acme Temp Agency).” (I only list the ones that lasted a decent time, not the short-term one-off ones.) When I fill out applications and it asks for the supervisor, I have no idea who to use. The temp agencies see themselves as the employer and supervisor and want to be the point of contact person at all times, though they can’t speak of my work. The site supervisors are better suited to speak of my work though. Advice?

    1. KR*

      I would list your supervisor at your temp assignment and note your contact at the temp agency for employment verification, but we work for different temp agencies and they work different sometimes.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Ask your onsite supervisor if they would be willing to serve as a reference. Some are and some aren’t.

      1. K.*

        Agree. I did a yearlong contract through an agency and I’ve used my onsite supervisors as references. They happily agreed to be references when I asked, and I asked because they can speak better to my work than the agency can.

    3. Sapphire (formerly EnobyPro)*

      So I’m a finalist for a position at a university, and I’ve heard from two of my references that they’ve had conversations with the hiring manager. I’m hoping I get a call saying I got the job soon, since they’re the only ones that want to hire me as of now. I’m feeling a little discouraged, and also worried because I have to attend a re-employment session for unemployment, and I’m scared I’ve done something wrong. But fingers crossed I get hired soon!

    4. JobinPolitics*

      AnonAndOn, you have my sympathies for the frustration of a job search.

      I jumped from an unstable environment to a short-term contract with an organization that just ended. I am now seeking a job in politics where I can put my diverse skill set to good use.

      This week, I have dedicated myself fully to applying for jobs and reconnecting with people. I currently have a coffee date and an interview scheduled for early April. I’m so tired of looking at my resume and just want to have a job in a financially stable environment. Maybe politics isn’t the best realm?

    5. Sapphire (formerly EnobyPro)*

      Also, I’m guessing the temp agency wants to be the point of contact for you (like if you get sick or need to take time off), but when you’re applying for jobs, it makes more sense to list the site supervisor. You can clarify, either in your resume, or the application itself, that it’s through a temp agency.

    6. WorkingOnIt*

      I got rejected from a job that would have been pretty cool, but unlikely and I’ve got an appointment with a temp agency for next month – which would actually be a good move, its a good employer, feel like I should be running at things and trying to get more done. It’s just I’ve done this dance so many times before and trying to rush never made things better. The rejection made me think I’m aiming too high, although have found a job that I would probably be a good fit for ( I have a whole list to apply to as well, but they’re similar to the one I was rejected from). I swing wildy from being really enthusiastic about applying for something to literally having not one idea of what to say, I was looking at Alison’s old post about how long it takes to write a cover letter, she said around 20 mins, luckily commenters widely disagreed, it can take me hours just to sit in the chair and face the application I’m so convinced I’m not going to get it or that my experience isn’t good enough. Makes me extremely anxious, ridiculously so, I’ve just had so many unsuccessful job hunts, and the jobs I’ve ended up at are nowhere near what I’ve wanted to do, so trying to get back to my original interests, or even just close to them seems exceptionally hard.

    7. foolofgrace*

      I also list “Acme Widgit Factory (via HelpMates Temp Service)”, and I give the address and phone number for the temp agency so they can verify employment. I don’t list the site supervisor but I do include them as references separately (with permission, of course). I’ve never had anyone ask who my site supervisor was.

      My contract is ending at the end of the month and I’ve been job-hunting. I hate that. All good vibes appreciated.

    8. AnonAndOn*

      Thanks for the advice, all! Where I’m working now I’m sure I’ll get a good reference if I asked them because I get positive feedback regularly. I’ve just never developed any decent rapport with past site supervisors (for one temp job I never met the supposed site supervisor), but in this case I have.

  46. Rookie Manager*

    Update on Rogue Report:
    His leave finished mid week but then he phoned in sick!
    Thanks for all the advice last week (and reassurance), if/when he returns on Monday I’m ready! However, its not looking good for passing probation next month.

    1. Jules the Third*

      Just read last week’s – yeah. Not looking good. Definitely extend at the very least, but whew, he’s egregious. Good luck!

  47. SallyF*

    How do you handle it when a coworker has questionable personal habits while seated in their workspace?

    I sit diagonally from a young woman, she is just to the right of my line of vision when I’m looking at one of my monitors. She’s constantly picking at skin blemishes on her face or back and then looking at the scrapings in her fingernails and … I apologize to the squeamish – sniffs/licks her fingers!

    I can’t tell you how many times a day my gag-reflex has been triggered.

    What’s worse is, I sat in on her interview. My manager and I agreed she had the skills and disposition ideal for the position. And she has been quite an asset – a quick learner, pro-active, hates to be idle. She’s awesome.

    But she’s a picker. She’s also a voracious eater, smacking her lips loudly when she eats.

    What can one even say or do???

    Fortunately for me, our department is relocating and she’ll sit BEHIND me in our future area.

    1. Workerbee*

      I am glad for your future out-of-line-of-sight seating!

      Until then, I think you’re just going to have to try to turn off your peripherals. It’s hard, I know. If there’s any way to prop up a tall folder or attach something to your monitor to hold a piece of (totally legitimate work) paper, do that.

      For the smacking-lips extravaganza, if you can wear headphones, do that, or arrange to be away from your desk if the eating is only at lunchtime. If it’s all day, eesh. I don’t have any good scripts myself for work colleagues; it’s such a dicey area, personal habits.

    2. Tardigrade*

      As much as mouth noises drive me nuts, I don’t think that’s something you can address.

      As for the blemish thing (by the way, O_O), you could possibly frame it as a non-specific “personal grooming” discussion if you have any kind of mentorship or seniority over her, but otherwise, I think you have to try your best not to see it.

    3. Mediamaven*

      We had an employee like this once. She would even pick and squeeze in client meetings. It was gross, and frankly it made me not want her to work for me anymore. Thankfully she quit, but I was trying to figure out what to do before then. These kinds of situations are never easy but I do think you have every right to say something. I think you need to speak with your boss and try to get them to elevate it to her. Perhaps approaching it like, I’m sure you probably don’t realize it, but it seems you unconsciously tend to pick at your face during the day. It’s not the most professional look and I wanted to bring it to your attention.

      I don’t know. It’s a tough one!

    4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Re: the picking, sometimes this is a side effect of a mental health condition (not saying that’s the case here, just noting that she may not be doing it consciously). I think bringing up the personal grooming request broadly is ok, but it also sounds like it might be worth letting it go since she’ll soon be out of your line of sight?

    5. GD*

      So the eating part is totally gross, I get it. But if you do bring it up I’d either bring it up with her directly or go directly to her manager. And if you go to her manager, please be careful to not exaggerate how bad it is. I totally get it, but my sister recently had a mortifying experience at work over face-picking. She will do it sometimes when she’s nervous and someone reported it to their boss, who went to someone else, who went to my sister’s boss– by the time it trickled back down to my sister she was told there was concern she was “self-mutilating,” which is definitely not the case. So just a heads up on how badly that can go, ha.

      I do think it needs to be framed as “it’d be more professional-looking if you didn’t do that” because I think the sniffing/eating really does cross a line… and be prepared for the possibility that it may be some kind of tic. And maybe also be prepared for her replacing that behavior with someone else equally annoying (pen-clicking or what have you) if it’s mostly about a need to have occupied hands.

    6. Someone*

      Oof, this is uncomfortable to read – I totally pick my face (and head and neck and arms and fingers…) when I’m nervous/haven’t slept well, and though I don’t do the sniffing/licking, I have an additional gross habit, so… many people would probably consider me just as disgusting.
      And it’s semi-conscious. I’m mostly aware that other people might be grossed out, but under stress it’s an urge as much as a habit, and very hard to stop. But knowing how it looks to other people DOES help – I don’t do it half as much when I’m among people, and when I feel watched I hardly do it at all.
      So talking to her might make a difference (slowly…), and a reminder of how it looks would also be kind from a professional perspective.
      Myself I would be slightly shocked but not offended if you told me, and would simply use that as an additional motivator to stop. But the reaction to such an issue is of course very personal – how does she take feedback in general, and how self-aware does she appear to be (especially of her faults)? How easily offended is she?

      You could try to frame it as a grrooming habit that she has which makes her look nervous/is reminiscent of a teenager, and that of course it’s difficult to reign in habits when lost in thought, but that some people might have difficulty with overlooking it when evaluating her from a professional perspective.
      If the extent to which she does it varies wildly, stress or sleep might play a role, and you could possibly add that such a habit might well be a response to stress or lack of sleep, and that addressing those issues, while beneficial in general, could help her in reducing the grooming habit.

      But yes, that would certainly be a difficult conservation. Try to sound concerned most of all – you do seem to have a good opinion of her as a worker, so summon that thought while talking to her.

      If the conservation does lead to a change in habit, though, that change will almost certainly be slow. Old habits die hard.

  48. nep*

    Work-related Best and Worst.
    Worst: Bombed a phone interview yesterday.
    Best: GOT a phone interview.
    Seriously I was so happy and heartened to receive an email during the week that was something other than a ‘thanks but no thanks.’ I’d been applying for about a year with no bites whatsoever.
    Phone interview was with a senior person at the organisation. (They sent me a test that is the next step in the process; I really don’t know why.) Re interview, I know what I’ve got to work on. Valuable lessons learned. Onward and upward.
    Du courage, all job-searchers.

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Worst: When I was drowning on Wednesday, I reached out to find out how many more Llama reports I could expect so I knew how to pace myself (and if I could even eat that day) all I got back was an “lol”

      Best: It was looking like I was going to be manning all the llamas next week by myself, on top of my job duties, because of scheduling. Management had just shrugged and said “it is what it is”. A coworker heard and decided it was ridiculous. So even though she has minimal llama wrangling experience, she’s diving in with me next week so the burden isn’t all on me.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Worst: My partner’s job has continued to deteriorate (abusive owners, zero HR, and both other managers have quit so he will soon be the sole coverage for the entire company) to the point where he is seriously considering leaving with nothing lined up. The only other jobs he could possibly get in the podunk town where we live would be a bartending job, which would likely result in a 30% pay cut. Our only option is to get out of this town, but first I need to find a better job elsewhere.

      Best: We decided what our next step will be, and have narrowed our search down to 5 possible states. I have a phone interview in one of our ideal locations in a week! I’ve already had 4 phone interviews for various jobs and nothing has panned out so far, but at least now I have a direction to work toward.

    3. Sabrina Spellman*

      Best: My boss put in for a promotion for me! This has made me feel so empowered and appreciated.
      Worst: Dealing with a difficult co-worker who has been badgering both myself and my boss. I also called someone the wrong name in an email.

    4. Dorothy Zbornak*

      Worst: Thought I hit mute during a conference call, had an extended convo with several coworkers in my office, then checked my email to see an annoyed coworker asking me to mute because of my background noise. I had evidently already had the phone on mute and unmuted when I hit the button. I’m usually one of those double-, triple-check-everything kind of people who hates being rude, so I felt bad about it, especially because the coworker who emailed me is someone I really like. STILL! A night of sleep and I shook it off today.

      Best: Scheduled a Skype interview next week for an amazing job – completely nervous because the people I’m interviewing with are really really important, but trying to psych myself up!

    5. Lora*

      Worst: literally every contact I have at one particular company, which I urgently need to get pricing from, no longer works there and doesn’t know who I should even contact now because their turnover is so high. Don’t know why their turnover is high, they aren’t notoriously awful to work for, I think it’s mostly that they’re perceived as a training ground and I know their health benefits are not great. It’s easy for their clients to hire their employees away after their employees finish up a project. Anyway, I know exactly ONE guy there, and he’s not on social media and I don’t have him in my phone and I cannot for the life of me remember his last name. Nick something. I only know which dance clubs he usually hangs out at on weekends, so literally in order to get ahold of this one vendor for a client (they don’t have contact info on their website!!! WTF?!? They’re not a small company either! they’re just older than dirt and don’t hold with the newfangled Intertubez full of cats or something) I have to go haunt two dance clubs. Hopefully I find him at the first one. Luckily it is a dance club that older people also frequent so I won’t look out of place. It’s still weird.

      Best: Client working on hiring me full time. I’ve had a couple of interviews with their management team so far and I’m to have four (four! this would be a real pain if I weren’t already on site) more next week, one with a woman engineer who is VERY respected in the field. There would be some wonky IP ownership issues to work out, so I’m apprehensive about whether they will be able to pay enough.

    6. Overeducated*

      Best: started new job! I’m gonna have employer provided health insurance for the first time ever in April!

      Worst: it’s been a weird first week with half the office (including my boss) teleworking due to illness and weather, a little quiet and lonely. Also, I’m a bit terrified that I’m severely inexperienced and going to make a fool of myself and then fail horribly.

    7. Funny Cide*

      Worst: donor to our organization was rightfully furious about something he had been pretty much promised that wasn’t going to work out.
      Best: he wasn’t furious with me directly, my colleagues were able to come up with a compromise that he found acceptable, and his email chewing us out was full of things that I’m sure were supposed to be illustrating how angry he was but were actually just really weird and I’ve been laughing at them all week.

  49. KR*

    This week is a better focus week but I am still having Issues getting my sh!t together.

    I put up the “Get your sh!t together” monologue from Rick and Morty on my filing cabinet to motivate me.

    I also made a mistake that will cost our project money. Manager has been really happy that these projects have been underbudget and ahead of schedule so far and while I don’t think this will cut into it too much it will be an extra cost due to a stupid mistake. I have to tell him Monday and I know I’ll feel better after. A part of me just wants to make it all go away and cover the difference on my own (I have the money and it’s not a super large sum) but I know he wouldn’t want me to do that.

    1. The Person from the Resume*

      OMG! Similar situation here. I finally fully explained everything that has been going down with my work problems last week when the big boss called and asked. Up to that point no one was asking. This week has been better but certainly not a full turn around.

  50. Rookie Manager*

    Mentoring Question:
    Do you have a mentor? Are they in your organisation or external? How often do you meet? What is the best way to find a mentor? Any other thoughts on mentors?
    TIA AAMers

    1. Probably Nerdy*

      I have a mentor within my organization, that was set up for me through a somewhat-formalized mentor/mentee program here. I had to seek out and ask to be part of the mentoring program, and then they asked both of us if we were ok with the arrangement.

      We used to meet once every 3 weeks or so, but I haven’t found her to be very helpful since I’ve had so much trouble succeeding here and she hasn’t had any trouble, so she kind of has cranio-rectal inversion syndrome and is like “I don’t see why this doesn’t just happen for you. You just do X and it works.”

      1. Rookie Manager*

        I would find that so frustrating! Lived experience isn’t everything if someone is perceptive and empathetic. I’ll look out for that, thanks.

    2. grace*

      My company sets up formal mentor relationships! We sign up and can ask for someone if they meet the requirements (it’s like x number of years here, a different team, etc.) and we’ve been told we’d be a good match.

      I also consider some previous bosses at my university job and past internships mentors, but that’s much more informal. :)

      1. Rookie Manager*

        I’ve had informal mentor-types before but I like the idea of more formal ones. In my current post while my boss is great my post is such that there is no natural senior peer (if that makes sense) so we’re discussing doing it more formally but no formal programme in the company.

    3. Sabrina Spellman*

      My boss is my mentor because she said she sees a lot of herself in me and wants to help me.

    4. Funny Cide*

      My organization’s culture really encourages a family like atmosphere and they do a reasonably good job of that. HR sets you up with a “mentor” when you get hired. They usually take you out to lunch (on p-card, HR will pay for this 2 times) and you chat or whatever. They’re usually roughly the same age/experience level, but might work in a completely different department. I know some people have forged nice friendships out of this, but mine felt sort of forced and awkward because our roles have essentially no similarities. Plus, I didn’t need much mentoring in terms of the organization, which I think is kind of the idea, since I interned here before graduation so I knew a lot about the company. But it was a nice idea, especially if maybe you’re just moving to the area or something.

      1. Rookie Manager*

        Great way to help a new colleague settle in and get to know people. Shame it didn’t work for you so well.

    5. Sci Fi IT Girl*

      I have had mentors and wanted to share the bad (there is good too!). I picked the wrong mentor – we had a few meetings (maybe every 6 months) over the years for discussion on career trajectories, etc. They also eventually were part of an of the decision panel for an internal job posting to which I and another person applied. IMO, they used information from our few talks to make their decision – and I felt this was very inappropriate especially since it was out of date and done in a mentor relationship from my perspective. Sooo, learning point for me – make sure a mentor is someone you can trust with your questions (including the awkward hard topic questions) and shares honest opinions and advice. And, I also recommend a mentor not be someone who will review you or judge you in the future. Not everyone has the skill set to mentor.

      I now have a different mentor who is great. We meet or telephone call every 3- 4 months. And it is a good experience – they are honest, about the good, the bad, the get your butt moving, the don’t waste time on this, etc. and the best part – mutual trust! And now I get to mentor someone too and I have learned a lot from the good and the bad mentor experiences I have had. I enjoy paying it forward in a good way.

      1. Rookie Manager*

        Great tips thank you. That must hurt using old-you against future-job-you. My manager has suggested finding someone outside my org who us a) local and b) has fresh perspective but it hadn’t occurred that down the line they could be my interviewer.

        In the future I’d love to mentor someone else and help their career. Do you find 3-4 times pa enough?

  51. lisalee*

    Is this ridiculous or am I out of touch?

    I’m in the running for an entry-level position in an industry adjacent to the one I’m currently in. I get the impression this is one of those jobs where they hire a batch of people, often new grads, all together. So I get that there might be some more automation than is normal. When I did the application I also had to do a personality test and a timed standardized test. Then I had a phone screening, and am now scheduled to have several interviews with people from the department (about 3-4 hours of interviews total).

    I just got another email saying that they make everyone who gets this far retake the standardized test to make sure the results from the first one weren’t a fluke. Am I right in feeling a little irritated by this? This seems like a LOT for a low-level position with mediocre pay in a non-prestige industry.

    2. Trillion*

      Everything seemed normal until you mentioned the retake. Ugh, that’s ridiculous. Makes me wonder if they someone lost the results (e.g. stopped paying their contract with the testing company, someone deleted the data, etc.)

      1. lisalee*

        Yeah, I wasn’t bothered by the interviews at all (although it is more than I’ve had to do for my prior positions) but the test thing is getting to me. I don’t think those things are very useful in general though. Also relevant is that they are asking for a quick start date–so I’m feeling pressured by the number of steps relative to the time we have before I would need to begin.

    3. Undine*

      We do this. I hate it. We’re owned by a venture capital firm that standardizes stuff like this across all their companies, we wouldn’t do it otherwise. We know we’re losing good people over it. But we don’t do it until after the interview I think.

      On the other hand, they could all be thinking this is a great process.

      Without an interview, it’s hard to tell how the Real Humans (TM) think about this. If you think it’s worth it to take the test to be able to go to the interview and find out more, do it. You can even ask them about the screening process to see what they’re thinking at that point. It’s also completely valid to decide it’s not worth your time.

  52. Cats and Dogs*

    I hit a wall this week and think I’ve achieved burn out. I’m slow these days. I would say I’m tired, but that’s not an accurate description. I don’t feel tired or suffering from lack of sleep. I literally feel like I’m walking through water both mentally and physically. I’m guessing after months of juggling lots of balls, it’s finally catching up with me, now that I can give some of the balls to someone else.

    Sadly depression is not new to me. I’m hoping it’s just a momentary recalibration for my brain and body and that it’s not an early manisfestation of some rounds of mental boxing.

    1. The Person from the Resume*

      Solidarity. Things are getting better for me at work, but I am shocked at how I am unable to motivate myself to get started on anything or stay focused. Sometimes I am legitimately tired and other days I’m not but my ability to provide any willpower to do anything unpleasant or slightly hard is nonexistent.

    2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      So much sympathy. I’m currently under a mountain of stress and having a hard time figuring out if it’s the beginning of a depressive episode or just short-term overloading. It feels like someone has thrown a heavy, wet blanket over my brain (it’s that massive elephant on your shoulders feeling with the hazy mental numbness).

      Are you in a position to take PTO?

      1. Cats and Dogs*

        I’m taking a few days off next week. But, of course, now I feel guilty about it. 1) Because the past few days have not been my most productive and 2) one of my assignments, which concludes next week, has not gone as I’d like. Though to be honest, literally no one (aka – almost all the boss people) expected it to. Still… one still hopes

        I dunno. I oscillate between not caring and obsessively caring. Stupid wet blanket!

    3. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      I’m feeling similarly. Just went through some major changes at work and I put in a lot of abnormal overtime (plus some weekend work that isn’t normal for my position). I’m one of the most senior employees, so my work was extremely crucial, but it all happened during a personnel re-org at the same time. Boss gave me heaps of urgent projects while simultaneously taking away all of my existing help, and then giving me somebody to train while trying to juggle all the things.
      On the plus side, Boss says I did great handling everything and it was all invaluable to current company success, so at least I didn’t drop any balls, and my trainee is quick to learn, self-motivated, and a pleasure to work with. She’s been a great relief.

      I took a week (mostly) off just recently, but with it coming during the DST time change (hate it!!) and having to be semi-on-call (was only needed for maybe six hours max of work over the course of six days), it wasn’t truly a proper recharge.
      I feel like I’m still suffering from coming close to burnout, plus not adjusting to the time change yet. I’m exhausted all the time and having trouble being motivated.

  53. Weddings & work*

    I got asked to be “best man” in my cousin’s wedding early this September. I really want to, as I’m very close to my cousin and excited for him – but I’ll be about a week into a brand-new doctoral program, doing teaching assistant stuff and taking coursework. I feel flaky for taking the Friday before Labor Day off to be in the wedding.

    Please reassure me that I’m not being flaky to support my cousin in this way!

    1. Squeeble*

      Nah, you’re fine. You can explain you’ve had a commitment for that day for a long time and can’t get around it. I bet a lot of people will be taking that day off, too.

    2. Murphy*

      I think people will understand big events like this! That’s not flaky at all.

      You may not have a lot of opportunities to get out and have fun while you’re in grad school, so you definitely shouldn’t miss the big things like this!

    3. CTT*

      You are not being flaky!! Take the time off! You have plenty of advance notice to give the professors you’ll be TA’ing for and taking classes with. Also, that it’s so early in the school year means that there hopefully won’t be a lot on your plate yet (also, if your school is anything like mine, it might be kind of a ghost town the Friday before a 3 day holiday weekend)

    5. Simone R*

      I missed some early orientation stuff for my doctoral program because I had already committed to being in a wedding party before I committed to the program! Give people a lot of upfront notice and it should be fine.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It’s hard to say until you get your class and teaching schedules, but usually it’s fine. My partner is a doctoral student and has to take off for the Jewish holidays in the fall; I don’t recall it being a big problem, especially in his first year. He TA’d one class with two other students and just traded for the days he needed to take off. Plan to be at the wedding and address it with your professors/fellow students when the time comes.

    9. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      This is so normal. Do the wedding and just give the prof you’re TA’ing for a head’s up well in advance.

    10. fposte*

      Friday before Labor Day is going to mean some student attrition as well. Even if you have a Friday section to teach, it’s not going to be full that Friday.

      1. Reba*

        Ha, great point!

        Also, W & W, obviously you have to arrange your priorities but I urge you not to let grad school crowd out all the other things that are important in life. Good luck starting your program!

        1. Weddings & work*

          Thanks! I posted here a few weeks ago under the handle “Wrenched” – and I’ve decided to go for it. :) I’m nervous as heck but also excited to take this opportunity! I’ve wanted it for a long time.

    11. sange*

      You’re fine – people in academia randomly disappear for days – weeks for no apparent reason. Don’t be overly personal in explaining your absence (family commitment out of state is fine), and make up the work promptly.

      1. fposte*

        Wow, that is very much not my academic experience. If a doc student in coursework here disappeared for weeks without explanation, that would be a big deal.

  54. GriefBacon*

    I got a new job! It’s technically my old job (program evaluation/database administration at a non-profit), but permanent and with a promotion and a lot more money and a glorious amount of time off! And since I’ve worked there before/pretty recently, I know it’s a great culture fit and I know exactly what the challenges are, etc, etc. Hoorays all around!

    Here’s my question. My given name is, let’s say, Jennifer. I go by Jennie (NOT Jenny!) in most every non-official context. When I started at my former/future employer as an AmeriCorps VISTA volunteer, there was another VISTA there named Jenni. I did a quick assessment of ways we’d get confused (both VISTAS, desks were next to each other, same team, both spelled it with an I, etc) and decided to go by Jennifer to keep things less confusing. I’ve never in my life gone by Jennifer, except in interviews and taxes, and had a bit of an identity crisis when I first started.

    I eventually made friends with a couple of my coworkers, at which point they realized I generally prefer Jennie and mostly call me Jennie. The other Jenni left over a year ago. The VP’s and directors and more senior people only know me as Jennifer, but I’d like to switch to Jennie when I start back next week. How do I do that without making it weird? Or am I the only one who’s going to feel weird about it?

    1. Murphy*

      Nah, I don’t think it will be weird. May take them a bit to get used to it, I’d just say “Oh, I actually prefer Jennie.”

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      As your new boss to introduce you as Jennie and sign your emails Jennie. Most people will figure it out quickly and it won’t be a big deal. Good luck with the new job!

    3. Joielle*

      I don’t think it’s weird at all, but if you want to acknowledge the fact that they used to call you Jennifer, you could say something like “Oh, I go by Jennie now.” Might head off any potential awkwardness.

    4. Funny Cide*

      I think you’ll have feel weirder than anyone else. Introduce yourself to new people as Jennie. Sign your emails and answer your phone as Jennie, if you have a name plate or a name tag, see if you can have those say Jennie. Ask HR to make sure your name is listed as Jennie in any staff directories. I think people can figure it out just fine!

  55. Anon4This*

    I have recently taken over managing my first direct report and am finding myself incredibly frustrated. My direct report is a constant complainer. I dread our weekly one on one meetings because half the time it devolves into a venting session about various things that I as his manager have zero control over. I try explaining and re-explaining the business reasoning behind the things that are bothering him and that seems to work in the moment but the next time we sit down for a talk…there’s either MORE complaints about different things, or the same complaints re-hashed again.

    I am very close to asking him point blank why he took this job (it was an internal-lateral move for him) as he seems so unhappy with it. I did not choose him as a direct report and I know he had some performance issues previously. When we first started working together his performance needed improvement but now that we’re further along I feel like he’s doing better. Well enough that if not for the constant complaining, I would be very happy with his performance recently.

    The complaints are mostly about the following items…the work he’s assigned (these are the typical assignments for the role that he’s in, I know he wants higher level work but honestly those assignments are MY job, I am not going to defer the manager level work to him and do more administrative work myself – this is a poor use of resources, there’s just not enough “higher-level” work to go ’round for everyone who wants to do it); the amount of work his peers are assigned by their managers (he complains everyone else is allowed to slack off), the quality of work by his peers (everyone else’s work is full of typos and is a mess), his compensation package (even though he just got a 8% raise to move into his current role and is paid the market rate for his position, he complains that his role not eligible for a bonus and feels his work is more valuable than his co-workers whom he knows are eligible for bonuses), that the head of our department doesn’t include him in meetings and emails to his own direct reports at the management level…I could go on and on about how these and other pettier slights have hurt his feelings.

    At this point, what’s the best way to deal with this? I’m thinking of just saying…no more of these complaints if you’re committed to this role but I do not want to strain the relationship. I want to be successful in my first role managing someone. I don’t want to keep listening to this complaining or re-explaining why he needs to let these things go, but I feel like cutting him off from discussing his complaints with me all together will result in resentment from him and he’ll be less likely to tell me about ACTUAL problems in the future which I’d need to know about.

    1. lisalee*

      It doesn’t sound like you’ve directly told him that the complaining is a problem. I would frame it as a professional development issue. “Bob, I need you to dial back the number of complaints you bring to me. I’m happy to hear about issues I can resolve, like X and Y. But many of the things you bring to me are normal at your level, or not things I can resolve, like A and B. Can you do that?”

    2. Irene Adler*

      Sounds like you need to take more control of the weekly one-on-one meetings.
      First, what is the purpose of these meetings? Sounds to me like your report sees it as a belly-aching session.
      So end that. Establish that the weekly meetings are to focus on work place goals. Start by establishing some -long and short term. One can discuss issues keeping your report from reaching these goals. But the items you list above- if they are not things pertaining to the work- then you will not listen to them any more. Redirect as needed.
      Your report will soon get the idea that things are how they are and he can then decide if he wishes to remain in the position.

      1. TheTallestOneEver*

        Agree with this comment. I have a set agenda for my one on one meetings with my direct report, and I make sure that they’re no more than 30 minutes.

    3. Anonanonanon*

      I would address it head on and tell him the things he is complaining about are integral parts of his role that are not going to change and ask if he actually wants this job. His composition and job duties are not currently up for debate and you will not discuss them again until his next annual performance review. The only thing in that list you may want to address is if the work done by his peers is actually a mess and creating extra work for him.

    4. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Ask him point blank. I think that may shock him into either realizing how much complaining he’s doing or at least shutting up.

    5. mrs_helm*

      Assuming theres a purpose for the meeting OTHER than getting feedback FROM the employee…
      Put a short time limit on the meeting, provide a meeting agenda. When complaining starts, point out you need to stick to agenda. If you get pushback, point out that this *is* the role he was hired for. You can accept his comments about how the work is distributed One Time with “I’ll take the into consideration”, but after that he’s not giving you new information so shut it down for the complaining that it is.

    6. Totally Minnie*

      I had a coworker like this once. He would even complain about his job when there were C-Suite folks in the room. I eventually took him aside and asked if he wanted to keep working for our company. He looked baffled and said of course he did. I told him that the way he talked bout the job and the company made it sound like he didn’t want to keep his job and that talking like that in front of the wrong people could cause really unpleasant consequences. He wasn’t even aware of how out of control the complaining had become, and he put a lid on it.

      So talk to your employee. You don’t have to be super blunt about it, but let him know that the complaining has gone too far and you don’t want it to lead to unpleasantness in his future.

    7. KarenT*

      I would ask him a few follow up questions:
      -Why is this an issue for you? (ie determine the impact)
      -How do you suggest we handle this/what is your plan to resolve this?

      I would sit him down and make it clear to him if he’s going to complain he needs to keep it limited to things that are impacting his work and unless it’s a huge/weird issue, he needs to have ideas about solutions.

    8. valentine*

      Redefine, then enforce and reinforce your roles/boundaries. He’s cast you in the role of his agony aunt and is free to be relentlessly negative. To succeed, he needs to stop, get perspective, and reframe his approach so he’s figuring out on his own how he can do his best work given the obstacles, most of which originate within him. It’s okay to risk straining this relationship, which, if you’re a woman, is a sexist one. I’m really tired of all these “I deserve a ton of money and to do only what I like to do. Plan: debate female supervisor to death” dudes. It reminds me of a story in, I believe, Deborah Tannen’s “Talking from 9 to 5” about a guy who threatened to quit, but to him this was just a debate tactic. His female colleague was so upset, she was going to fold because she respected him and it seemed to mean so much to him. Either your report can reset, like the guy who wanted to “borrow” the CEO’s impeccable EA, or he can move on and out. Tell him work isn’t an appropriate venue for venting and you’re not an appropriate audience for same, that his colleagues and the processes have and bring value, and one needs to x, y, and z in order to reach a level where one can make the decisions he wants to make.

    9. Observer*

      You need to tell him flat out that he needs to cut it out.

      Be kind but clear. When I say kind, I don’t mean softening though. So, something like “I hear that you are frustrated. I’ve explained as much as I can, and it’s time to end these discussions.” After that, each time it’s “As I said, this is not up for discussion.” And move on.

      If your direct report really, really can’t handle it, it may be time to take some corrective action. But step number one is simply and directly stopping him.

  56. MassholeMarketer*

    I had a great interview on Monday morning and even got a personalized response to my thank you email from the hiring manager. They have a couple more weeks of interviews, which I understand, but the waiting game causes so much anxiety. I haven’t been on an interview in two years and I totally forgot how stressful this is!

    1. Irene Adler*

      Over the weekend: Do your prep work (study up on the company, review possible interview questions).
      Then, get in some good physical exercise to work off the stress. Don’t hurt yourself, but a good bout of exercise does a lot to reduce stress.

      1. MassholeMarketer*

        You’re the best.
        I’ve been weirdly obsessively reading up on the company a lot since the interview.
        Also, definitely running after work today!

  57. stitchinthyme*

    This may get a little rambly; the tl;dr version is I’m trying to figure out whether it’s time to think about looking for a new job.

    I’ve been at my current place almost five years (my anniversary date is in May). I have recently come to realize that I’ve largely checked out mentally and emotionally; I used to socialize more with my coworkers, play games at lunchtime, and generally engage more, but now I mostly keep my head down, eat in my office, and only talk to people if they come to see me.

    I often don’t have anything to do, so when I do get something to do and I’m not given a deadline, I tend to drag it out as long as I can because I know it’ll be a while before I get something else. (No, I haven’t always done this, so they’re not refraining from assigning me stuff because I’m slow. When there’s a deadline, I have no problem coming in on time.) My imposter syndrome keeps telling me they’re not giving me stuff to do because I’m not very good, but I get decent performance ratings and my boss has never complained about my work, nor has anyone else to my knowledge. And I certainly never had this issue in any other job. (Sometimes I think of improvements I can make to my own code, and I do those in my copious spare time, but there’s only so much of that I can do.)

    Speaking of my boss, he’s a bad manager. (I don’t mean “making you leave a note on a grave” or “requiring you to donate a kidney” bad. If he were that bad, I wouldn’t still be working there!) He’s a nice enough person and really good technically, but he shouldn’t be managing people. My first year there, I used to go to him when I’d run out of things to do, and he made a comment about me going to him too much under the “Needs Improvement” section of my first performance review, so I stopped going to him at all for anything, ever. A year or two after that, they created project leader positions, and that improved things since I could get work from them, but even though they know my workload is light, they’re not giving me much to do.

    And plus, a lot of my coworkers are, to put it bluntly, dicks. They’re nice sometimes, but other times they can be total assholes. For instance: yesterday I asked them to do me the favor of changing where they were getting lunch because I didn’t have my car and the office had unexpectedly postponed the weekly catered lunch to today, and I couldn’t stand the place they were planning to go…and they refused, although I do believe that if anyone else had asked they’d have done it (I’ve seen them change plans when one of the guys asks). It’s a small thing, but it seemed to symbolize how I am viewed by my coworkers — last priority, not important. The only other female software engineer in the company has been treated worse than I have…or maybe I’ve just grown a thick skin and have ignored it when they are like that to me. But we all have our breaking points.

    Full disclosure: I’m also an introvert, and I hate meetings. I will go if I’m directly asked, but I don’t seek them out and so I think I’m probably missing a lot of the design discussions and similar things around here. Part of the reason for that is the aforementioned introversion, but there’s also the fact that I never really feel like I have much to contribute, and like a lot of the stuff they’re discussing is over my head (there’s that imposter syndrome again). And plus, it can be hard for me to get a room in edgewise, especially since I’ll often be the only woman in the room. But I’m wondering if my lack of engagement could also be part of why I’m invisible there. I am the only one who knows anything about databases, so my knowledge IS valuable, but there isn’t enough database development to do full-time, so I CAN write other code. It’s just that I’m rarely asked to.

    The main reason I’m still there at this point is because I like having my own office — while I could tolerate a cubicle, an open floor plan is one of my worst nightmares, and it seems like more and more offices are going that way. Plus, the thought of a job search is just emotionally exhausting. So yeah, inertia. And also, fear. There’s always a lot of fear that goes with changing jobs: what if they don’t like me? What if I can’t do the work? And more mundanely, who would I give as references? (I have no idea what my current manager or coworkers would say about my work there, and I’m not sure how far back it’s appropriate to go.) I know they’re not all rational fears, since I’ve always done fine, but that doesn’t make me any less afraid. And plus, as I get older (I’m 47), I’m increasingly afraid that it’ll be harder to find a new job as an older woman in an industry that favors young males.

    Not sure what I’m looking for here…advice, insights, support, or maybe just a place to vent.

    1. stitchinthyme*

      Bleah, that should have been “hard to get a word in edgewise” in the third-to-last paragraph.

    2. Batteries Not Included*

      Honestly, it seems to me that you’re falling back on your introversion as a reason not to be more engaged in your workplace. Based on what you’ve said, you kind of rely on others to direct you, rather than taking initiative. Some of this certainly isn’t helped by insecurity (Imposter syndrome or social awkwardity can be challenging when trying to be proactive). But, I honestly think if you’re looking to better your work experience, you’ll need to address these issues or you’ll face similar situations elsewhere. (Unless you find a career where these aspects of your personality are benefits)

      1. stitchinthyme*

        To some extent, you’re right, but I’ve never had problems being proactive and finding things to do in other jobs. However, in most of my other workplaces, when there were meetings, I was always invited and always went, whereas here I don’t get the invites at all.

        It’s kind of a vicious cycle: I feel invisible and ignored, so my instinctive reaction is to withdraw, which makes me even MORE invisible.

        However, when I do see something I can improve, or a new feature I can add, etc., I do take the initiative. It’s just that eventually I run out of things like that.

        1. Batteries Not Included*

          I hear ya. My reaction to being treated poorly is also to limit contact. But, let me ask you, why do you think it’s harder to be proactive at this job then in previous ones? (I’m assuming your role at your current job isn’t vastly different than ones you’ve had previously) That might answer your question as to whether it’s time to move on. If it’s because you were more involved in meetings or projects, perhaps that’s something you can discuss with your manager, i.e. ask if you can work on a particular project or task. But, if it’s because there’s some kind of bureaucratic/red tape/hierarchical rigidity/sexist bs – then I’d say it’s time to move on.

          1. stitchinthyme*

            Excellent question; I’ll have to think about that one some more. There isn’t a lot of bureaucracy here, or much hierarchy — it’s a pretty small company, and my direct manager is a VP, with only the company president above him.

            What I struggle with most is the issue that my first instinct is always to blame myself: Are they ignoring me because I’m not that good? Because I’ve been withdrawing more? So I’m not sure whether my feelings are due to my imposter syndrome or if the problem is with my workplace. It’s hard to look at it objectively when I’m so close to the situation, you know?

            1. Batteries Not Included*

              I do know! It’s taken me a long time to seek out feedback and not be afraid of it. (And I’m still afraid of it). The thing is, you’ll never know if it’s you or imposter syndrome if you don’t try to advocate for yourself. The outcome, whether good or bad, will give you the information you need to change the situation.

    3. foolofgrace*

      Batteries Not Included has given you some valuable advice. All I can add is to point out that since it can take a year to 18 months sometimes to find a new job, why not start putting your toe in the water? Brush up your resume, draft a killer cover letter, look at job postings. It’s entirely possible that you’ll find that you are exactly where you need to be, but you also might find something more in tune with your sensibilities. Just a thought.

  58. Forking Great Username*

    Teachers of ask a manager (or anyone else who feels like giving advice!) – is it possible to teach in a school that isn’t the best cultural fit for you and have it go smoothly without losing your mind? I’ll likely be offered a job at the school where I’m student teaching, and strongly feel that I should take it. My area of certification can be a tougher one to find a job in, and with two kids at home it would be awesome to find a job right away. However, the head teacher of the department (also my cooperating teacher) is not the best fit for me – she’s nice enough to me most of the time, but our teaching philosophies are very different. Some of it is little stuff – I like having my students watch the play before analyzing the language with shakespeare since, hey, that’s the original format, but she thinks that makes it too easy for them. Some of it is big stuff, like her outdated and incorrect views on things like anxiety and depression – she says I do too much to try to help those students. That their problems are in their head and they just need to “toughen up.” I couldn’t disagree more, but haven’t really expressed that because…student teacher. I have to be careful.

    My current plan is to take the job, but keep an eye on my preferred district’s job openings. But I guess I’m just looking for general advice on how (and if it’s even possible) to politely disagree with some of your mentor’s advice. Right now I’m just biting my tongue a lot whenever things like mental health or using preferred pronouns comes up in conversation. I’m also kind of dreading the thought of district- hopping down the road since that doesn’t seem to be commonly done in my area.

    1. Julianne*

      To what extent is this teacher going to be able to dictate how you do things in your own classroom? Would she be responsible for any aspect of your evaluation?

      In my experience, and in the experiences of just about every newer teacher I know, it is VASTLY easier to get a teaching job if you have full time experience as a lead teacher (i.e. not a student teacher, aide, etc.) under your belt. I got 5x more callbacks after my first year teaching (I was a one year long term sub) than I did when I was fresh out of school. I’m not trying to make light of the challenges you’ve indicated (especially the pronoun/mental health stuff, eeeeeek that’s problematic), but if you think you could deal with it for a year, you should take the job.

      1. Julianne*

        Oh, also, my first teaching job and my current (second) teaching job are in different districts. Once you get established in your career, especially if you are in a desirable district, changing districts when you change jobs doesn’t make sense in most places, but I think it’s unlikely anyone would look askance at you doing that within the first year or two of your teaching career. (I know people who have district-hopped much more than that, and I do think it’s hurt them, but I’m talking, like, four different jobs in four different districts in a four year period. And even then, the problem is more general job-hopping than anything.)

    2. Laura H*

      No advice, but I’m with you on the Shakespeare thing- although in my experience it was read the play then watch the film- seeing it presented is just more helpful in conjunction with reading it!!!

    3. foolofgrace*

      This — “To what extent is this teacher going to be able to dictate how you do things in your own classroom? Would she be responsible for any aspect of your evaluation?”

      But something that disturbs me about this situation is what you report about students’ anxiety and depression. These are kids In Trouble, and who could grow in to Bigger Kids In Trouble, the kind of kids who might think a gun is the way out of their pain. We talk so much about bullied kids and kids in trouble but nobody seems to be doing anything about it, I think it’s totally commendable of you to take notice of this and try to help. Who knows, the smallest thing you might do could be the thing that helps a kid out of a dark place. Hope this isn’t a bad thing to bring up, if it is I’m sure I’ll get moderated, and I apologize.

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      I agree with Julianne. For new teachers, a job is a job and having a couple of years under your belt can really make a difference. Keep in mind too that different schools within the same district can have different approaches/philosophies, so you might not even have to change districts.

      I’m not sure where you’re located but where I am, the department head would not be involved in evaluations (only administrators – principal and vice-principal do that). If she is not involved, I wouldn’t worry about her. Teachers are usually given some autonomy once they have their own classroom.

      As far as the non-classroom issues, one thing you might do, once you have some capital to spend, is bring it up with the admin as a school-wide PD. There must be someone in the district who can come in and lead a session on student mental health. We do that session once a year, I think. For the moment, if you’re hired, keep your head down and just focus on being a good teacher. The first year is crazy enough without taking on all sorts of battles.

    5. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I would agree that the big question is whether she will be responsible for your evaluations. Also, generally, how supervised were other new hires in your school? This may be different for you, but where I teach we really do have a ton of autonomy once we get our own classes. Most of the staff would be too busy to note the way you’re doing things in your classroom and too professional to criticize once you have your certification. As for how to disagree with your mentor, keep smiling and nodding for now. Later, I think your two best options are avoidance “Sorry, Fergusina, can’t talk! I’ve got a ton of photocopying to do for next class” or gentle pushback “I don’t know, I’m finding that Waken does a lot better when you let him use his anti-anxiety app.”

      It might also be worth thinking about where the principal falls on this belief spectrum. If both the head teacher and the principal are against supporting preferred pronouns and students with mental health issues, I’d think a lot harder about taking the position.

  59. For Nonprofit Fundraising/Development*

    I didn’t get back to yesterday’s thread until this morning – I left the funder side world because I missed being a part of the day to day impact nonprofits make.
    My old org did great work but it was just too divorced from the actual impact for me
    -anon for this

  60. WhereForArtThouJobs*

    So my company underwent some pretty significant layoffs (roughly 50% of the workforce) a few months ago. I was lucky enough to keep my job, but I don’t have a good feeling about the survival of the company. As such, I’m trying to do some lowkey job hunting. However, I’ve never really had to look for a job in the past. I went to a college that did career fairs so I never had to actually look for companies. They always came to me! I was hired right out of school. As such, I’m kind of at a disadvantage now. What are some good sites for looking for engineering jobs? In particular, biomedical?

    4. Just a thought*

      I’ve gotten my two post-college jobs by applying directly through the company’s website. Some companies I knew I wanted to work for, and others I found by looking at best places to work or fastest growing companies lists for my city

  61. RobbieNYC*

    What do you do to ward off pushy recruiters?

    Lately I’ve had a lot of recruiters push back when I say I’m not looking for a new job. This can range from calling me up in my office after I send a polite no thanks email, to debating me on it (“what you don’t understand is XYZ, but I’m still willing to set up a phone call to discuss the role”), to coyly ignoring it (“That tends to change so I’ll catch up with you in a month or two! ☺️”).

    I just got that last email earlier this week, and it really rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe I was in a bad mood that day, but I sent off a reply saying “I meant it when I said I’m not going to be looking for a new job for a long time. Since you don’t respect that, please take me off your list because I won’t be working with you or your agency in the future.” Was that too much?

    1. Junior Dev*

      No, if you say no and they continue pushing, IMO it’s fair game to be pretty blunt in response.

      1. RobbieNYC*

        Yeah, I feel on a gut level it’s okay to do that. I was just raised in a way that means I’m overly polite (kind of a doormat, honestly), and sometimes need a prod in the side to stick up for myself and put my foot down.

        I’m in NYC (super competitive) and work in software (high demand), so I probably run into a lot more pushy recruiters than the average person. And in this area and industry, many people adopt a “hustle hustle hustle”/”no is just a delayed yes” mindset. And a lot of these recruiters are kids straight out of college, meaning it’s their first job and they’ll blow your phone up with calls if they think that’ll help or that’s what the boss says to do.

    2. Anonanonanon*

      It sounds like you can simply ignore e-mails like the last one. If they call you, reiterate that you are not interested and hang up before they can get into their spiel.

    3. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      Ooof… I’m with you. I’m also in NYC in a pretty hot/in-demand field at the moment. Anytime I get frustrated I remind myself what it was like job searching in the recession and that ultimately, it’s a good “problem” to have. However, that all does not negate the annoyingness of pushy recruiters.

      I honestly think the best route is to just not respond to the recruiters at all (even their initial emails) when I’m not job searching. It feels kind of rude, but I remind myself that most of their cold messages are probably copy and pasted to dozens (if not more) others. The only time I even consider responding is if the message makes it crystal clear that it is a personalized message (something beyond my name – a reference to my current company, or specific job functions that I list or a job title).

      What I’ve found is that if you don’t respond at all most will not follow up, but if you do respond, even if it’s just a polite decline – they see you as a “live one” and will continue to push.

  62. Junior Dev*

    Yesterday I had a conversation with my boss in which I had to really strongly advocate for an idea. It wasn’t so much my idea as “this other department is organizing a project in a certain way, and we have to understand XYZ about the scope of it before we ask them to change things about it.” It was a Skype meeting and it felt like she wasn’t getting it, so I said I’d send her an email explaining what I meant.

    Then I went and hid in the bathroom and panicked. I got fired from my last (toxic) job and I was so, so scared I had inadvertently offended my current boss by talking over her or some other part of what I had said.

    I am coming to realize my bad jobs of the past are affecting me in similar ways to other traumas I have experienced, like domestic violence. I’m on meds that prevent some of the physical symptoms of anxiety so I don’t get the palm-sweating, heart-racing panic so much anymore. But I still freak out about relatively normal things.

    Anyone have similar experiences? Does it get better after being in a more functional work environment for a while?

    1. Solaire*

      I’ve been there. I think two important things are to admit (to yourself) that the old job was toxic and the new one isn’t, and to gradually “stick your toe in the water” by allowing yourself to see that things that were bad at the toxic job aren’t bad here, like suggesting alternatives to your boss. It’ll be okay!

      If therapy’s a feasible option I would go for that too. Not every therapist is good, and not all of the good ones will click with you, but I strongly advocate trying therapy.

    2. JobinPolitics*

      Junior Dev, yes, I know the feelings of past trauma creeping up on you in a current role.

      Having survived more than one toxic job, I can tell you time and distance help but so does speaking with a counselor who can provide coping mechanisms and work with you on developing positive habits (assuming good intent, realizing things aren’t as personal as you think, etc.).

      I wish you luck and encourage you to take care of yourself and not allow past baggage to limit your potential.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      It gets better. The fear of being fired wears off. You start to understand how your boss functions/processes information so you can better tailor your approach. You get a reputation as a hard worker/fount of knowledge/etc. and gain trust that way.

    4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      It will get better, but it will take time to adjust (and often the recovery time is related to the length of time spent at ToxicWorkPlace—it took me 1.5 years, and I still have flashbacks, sometimes). Therapy, body work, and meditation can help a lot. Sending warm thoughts and hugs.

    5. clow*

      Yes, nothing as awful as domestic violence, but for toxic job, yes. For a long time I was terrified that if I made any mistake, I would be fired or something. That seemed to happen a lot at toxic job. I have been at current job for nearly a year and I have finally started to normalize normal again and the anxiety over every small thing is going away. I freaked out over making even one mistake but the way people react here is more to do with finding solutions than pointing fingers. I was paranoid about everything, worried all the time. It does get better, it just takes time. I hope you start feeling better soon.

    6. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Yep, this is totally A Thing. Toxic jobs aren’t just toxic while you’re there – they can leave toxic sludge all over you that sticks around even when you get into a Non-Toxic job. And it takes a while to wear off. How long will vary from person to person, and job to job, but it will always take Way Too Long.

      Been there, done that, and I didn’t even have really long stays at any toxic jobs.

    7. alannaofdoom*

      My experience is similar though not as intense: for about a year we had a toxic person two or three levels above me in the hierarchy. My boss was very good at insulating us from the nonsense, but she couldn’t prevent all of it from rolling downhill onto us, especially when our department became his personal whipping boy. Toxic Person moved on, my department all made it out relatively unscathed & put it behind us. A year or two later I was cleaning out old email folders and came across a saved email from Toxic Person, and felt my hackles go up, literally. (I didn’t even know I had hackles! But there they were! Going up!) So yes, trauma is trauma, no matter the source. And now that I’m in a better environment, I’m finding that it’s a lot easier to let go. But it does take time.

    8. Windchime*

      I think it does get better but it can take a long time. My last toxic job was very traumatic and getting called in to talk to my bullying manager was very stressful. Yesterday, my current boss called me into her office and my anxiety shot through the roof. It turned out to be a totally friendly, benign reason that she wanted to see me. So yeah, it takes awhile to get over a toxic workplace.

  63. Cruciatus*

    It’s performance review time at my place of employment. It’s this year long annoying process for which they keep changing platforms. But that’s a story for another day. We have to do self evaluations of our goals and competencies (which are things like “shows initiative, works well with others, etc.). The main choices are not successful, successful, and exceptional. I want to put exceptional for a few things (not everything). I’ve actually been told that we will likely never be overall ranked as exceptional because HR has said not to mark everyone as such (which is quite demoralizing and, again, a story for another day).

    I guess my question is… What is your barometer of “exceptional”? Does that mean never messing up or having an off day. I think for things that require interpersonal relationships I am exceptional. I get along with everyone and (mostly) cheerfully help them and in a timely manner. But I’m not perfect. They haven’t provided a list of how one is exceptional vs. only successful. What do you think is a good way to separate the two?

    1. Junior Dev*

      If you’re in the US, put exceptional for everything except a few areas where you know you need improvement. Put “successful” for those.

      It’s not that I literally think you are exceptional, it’s that this is how numerical rating systems work, in my experience. Anything less than full score is a problem.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Ugh I hate trying to feel out these unstated norms! I’m about to start my first annual performance review with my new job, and I just know I’m going to be disappointed when I see the results – this is the kind of place where managers will say “great job!! You’re killing it!!” to your face and in emails, but then when it comes to the Official Record, nothing is ever above average. And knowing my boss, he’s going to make me feel like a jackass if I mark myself as exceptional, even when he’s *literally* been telling me I’m doing exceptional work!

    3. StellaBella*

      My barometer for exceptional is a group of qualities that get reflected in work:
      Cares for and respects others.
      Does their job well, and double checks work and gets things done on time.
      Wants to learn new skills.
      Works their hours, sometimes more, but does not over work or burn themselves out.
      Communicates well, does not hoard info, does share info with others, sends updates and tracks progress on regular project milestones.
      Does not microwave left over fish at work. (kidding. sort of).
      Encourages others.
      Smiles and has a positive attitude.
      Is not chaotic or disorganised.
      Is willing to step back and let others lead. Is willing to lead at times.
      Exhibits core values of honesty and integrity, has composure and can think a bit ahead and anticipate project or programme problems.

  64. Therapy Inquiries*

    I’ve been in a new role for about 3 months now. My sick leave is accumulating and I have been waiting for it to build up to consider taking off weekly for a therapist appointment. I stopped because I had no insurance, but now I have insurance! However, my boss already is strict on using time off (and I have not taken one except one personal leave day—we get 3 personal leave days upon hire—for moving stuff.) and although we are non-exempt and do overtime, she does not allow us to get paid for that (we have to fib on the timesheet.) I am afraid how it may look if I ask her for 1-2 hr of sick leave per week (every Tuesday) for recurrent therapy appointments for my anxiety disorder/previous brain injury. Is it too early to be able to do therapy appointments like this? Should I wait until I’m in for 6 months before asking for weekly medical leave for therapy? I would try to schedule it as late as possible with the therapists schedule so I could still get work done on those days.

    2. fposte*

      How big is this employer? With something as quantitative as a prior brain injury, I would think the ADA would be worth bringing into play if the employer is large enough. After a year intermittent FMLA would also be a possibility, but you really don’t want to wait for that.

      However, I’m really concerned by that “not allowed to get overtime” thing–that’s wildly illegal if we’re talking exceeding the legal limits. Just to be sure, you are working over 40 hours per week, or are in California and working over 8 hours in a day? (Some companies have over 37.5 in a week policies, but it’s not illegal to refuse to pay OT after 37.5.) This is a big enough red flag that I find it hard to predict what this manager would do in response to reasonable leave requests.

      1. Therapy Inquiries*

        It is a big employer–a university. I have yet to get ADA involved, or ask for accommodations because I’ve been worried about making a big deal with the process, but am now considering looking into that.

        This is my first job out of college and post TBI, so I just wanted to lay low (but I do want to go to therapy!) Most of us work over 40 hours because it is a lab and there’s just so much to do. We often don’t leave until our boss leaves, and she leaves late. However, I believe she is exempt. It’s something all the employees do because she approves of our timesheets. If we say on the timesheet that we worked our true hours (over 40 on quite a few weeks) she will correct them for it to say “9 to 5” and then approve them. She’s mentioned letting us flex our time, but when that was tried, we were reprimanded because we weren’t there on time or left too early. Sigh.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, she’s really asking for trouble. It doesn’t matter if *she’s* exempt–it matters that you aren’t. She doesn’t have to let you flex your time, but the OT thing is another matter.

          However, I know we’ve had people here who’ve worked in labs, and I’d be interested to hear if this is SOP despite being illegal. It *shouldn’t* be SOP, but if it is I’d factor that in to any decision you make about action there.

          But you didn’t even ask about action there! You asked about time for therapy, and I’d straight up go the ADA route for this.

    3. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Asking you to lie on your timesheet so that you are not paid overtime is actually illegal. Do you know if this is something that’s done company-wide or just in your department? If it’s just in your department, I’d say you should let HR or her manager know. I’d probably phrase it as a question, like it’s some kind of mistake: “Jane is asking me to change my time sheet so that we don’t show any overtime hours. Is that correct? I was worried because I know it’s against the law, and I don’t want us getting in trouble.” Or something to that effect.

      1. Therapy Inquiries*

        I believe it’s just our department/our boss, but I’m not entirely sure. I haven’t really spoken to anyone outside our department. I’ll try to muster up the courage to speak to HR. Will she know I was the one who talked to HR? Would I have to say it was me who made the complaint? Sorry, I’m still new to the working world thing!

        1. Half-Caf Latte*

          Alison’s got some great scripts for this if you search the site. Basically, let them know that you’re concerned about retaliation, and ask them to use discretion when talking to your manager to ensure that you are not retaliated against.

    4. Bea*

      Nope nope nope. This is a huge nope. You need to loop HR in, she’s breaking the law and most likely university policy for falsifying timesheets.

      You earned the sick leave. Are you in a state with mandatory sick leave laws? They can’t deny your use and you can’t be retaliated on and they don’t have any grounds to know why you’re using it.

    5. valentine*

      Check your manual as to when you can start using sick leave. If there’s no probationary period, no one should be guilting you out of your compensation. Tell your supervisor you’ll need x time off every week for recurring appointments. Don’t say why. This may be uncomfortable, but really hold out. (There was someone in the open threads fired for disclosing autism.) Ask if your therapist or primary doctor will back you up, then frame this as an accommodation. If necessary, the doctor can write a note without specifics as to your health. Also, a little flexibility is probably in order, such as “1 hour every week, usually on Thursdays,” so your supervisor doesn’t follow the letter of the letter. If she still says no and the issue is hours, she hasn’t actually set hours, so this might be a place to use the script about “We can get in trouble for not paying OT to those of us who are non-exempt”. Ideally, she would say how many hours she needs you to work per week and you could figure out a schedule that works for you. For you, because what works for her is to withhold your rightful wages. Check outside the department; hopefully, it’s just her and HR or some other entity cares about the school’s reputation. There’s advice on this site about reporting to the Department of Labor. I hope you’re at least getting your paid breaks.

    6. Observer*

      If you are asking about what SHOULD happen, I would say you’re fine.

      But your boss is an idiot and it’s hard to tell whether she’s part of a larger culture or an outlier, so it may NEVER be a “reasonable” time. Anyone who tries to keep you from using the time you are entitled to under the guise of being “strict” is already a problem. And making you regularly lie on your timesheet is really, really unfair. This is NOT a case of someone who doesn’t quit “get it”. Making you lie is not something that happens by accident or through cluelessness. I suspect that she is NOT going to take well to any reasonable request for time off – paid no less! After all, from her perspective, you should work EVERY SINGLE hour you get paid for and then add some for good measure!

      Do you have HR? Are they competent? If yes, then you might want to have a conversation with them.

  65. Jascha*

    I gave notice at my current job last week for a combination of reasons – some medical, some to do with the company culture. The office manager (to whom I resigned, as no one more senior was available) asked if there was anything they could do to retain me, and the only thing I could think of that *might* work was to transition to a full-time telecommuting position. (My job is totally doable as a telecommute and others, even in the company, do this.) At the time, it seemed like that was not going to be an option for me.

    It now looks like some senior employees may be interested enough in retaining me to try to work out a deal. I’m afraid that they may try to compromise on partial or “mostly” telecommuting. I might be able to make that work based on the medical issues alone, but it wouldn’t help me avoid the environmental/cultural issues (and those aren’t worth it to me given that I’m already overworked and underpaid). I do, however, really enjoy the actual work I do and the security a full-time job affords me.

    Can anyone help me with wording I could use to gently decline any attempt at a compromise on telecommuting without seeming like a jerk? I feel like the “overworked and underpaid” thing is already my part of the compromise and, however much I like it, I really don’t want to stay in this position for less than full-time telecommuting (with, of course, occasional office visits and professional travel as necessary).

    1. Simone R*

      “I’m sorry, only full time telecommuting is an option for me.” You don’t need to give lots of reasons and arguments, politely repeating that, and maybe adding in the vague “personal reasons” excuse should be fine.

      1. Jascha*

        Thanks! I will try. I feel like they’ll make the effort to get more out of me. (It’s a small company and they like to think they feel like a family; personally, I think they need to acknowledge they have grown beyond that.) I’ve already explained that there are medical appointments, though I haven’t mentioned the functional issues that would also be a problem. I have also named communication issues and negativity as in-office problems, along with one or two examples when asked, but haven’t (and likely wouldn’t) get into the full extent of it, especially as some of the people asking are those responsible for some of the issues…
        (I have also realised I didn’t specify that the company and I are both UK-based, in case that makes a difference.)

        1. zora*

          If they keep pushing you are better off not giving any more reasons why. Just broken record, stick to what Simone said. YOU: “Ok, but only full time telecommuting is an option for me.” THEM: But, but, but. YOU: “Well then it sounds like you are saying I should leave, because only full time telecommuting is an option for me.”

          I think you should decide that is your hard and fast boundary and that if they finally agree, great, take it. If they don’t agree, you have lost nothing, you are back to your original plan of leaving.

          And also, if they finally agree, don’t let them convince you to “just come in for this thing”!! Again, stick to, “Actually, I’m not able to do that. I only telecommute. Sorry!”

      2. Irene Adler*

        This is good. But please remember, you don’t have to explain the ‘why’ behind declining any offers they might make. “No, thank you” or “Not interested” should suffice as well.

    2. Blue Eagle*

      If you are overworked and underpaid, why isn’t asking for a raise on the table? Would your decision to continue working there change if you received more compensation? If so, think about monetary compensation as well as permanent tele-commuting.

    3. valentine*

      If the other issues impact your health, as long as health remains a factor, especially if it’s the major factor, can you frame telecommuting as an accommodation? Either way, decide upfront how much travel you’re willing to do, to the office or elsewhere, and stick to it so they can’t guilt you or jerk you around. Coming up with a complete description of work/benefits will give you something to point back to if you need this to be set in stone in your favor, eg “As we agreed…” (I can attend x in-office meetings per month, with a week between them. I’m retaining my PTO). Where possible, stick with positive wording.

  66. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

    I work with someone who is really exhausting. They are insecure, a terrible communicator, someone who takes credit for work that they didn’t do, and also someone who takes everything personally (leading to hurt feelings and episodes of lashing out). Not only is it difficult to work with them, but the amount of time I have to spend navigating their emotions is draining, and I dread interactions with them.

    I am getting a promotion at work and will hopefully have to work with them less. However, I have a feeling that they will continue to pile on work, even though I’m supposed to be spliting my time working with another director.

    What are some helpful tips to navigate someone like this, and are there any best practices for pushing back on working with this person? For more context, they are not my boss. Just an area lead who I am an assigned to work with on certain projects.

    1. zora*

      Since you are starting this new job, you should talk to your new boss about it, and what your workload is. Then you have that so you can say, “Oh, sorry Jane, but Boss has other priorities for me so I can’t help with that.” Or “My plate is full, I can only do the pieces you gave me earlier.”

    2. valentine*

      If you’re taking on their feelings, there’s a good book called Emotional Blackmail that may show you how to resist enmeshment and forced teaming. As long as your behavior is appropriate, you can lead by example and stop running their gauntlet. You can dial back to politeness and let their problems be just that. If they get upset, carry on as though they’re not crying in your face. If they sob, shout, or won’t get back on task, end the interaction: “Why don’t we return to this in 3 minutes.” A short window is crucial. Stay in the space, if that’s safe to do, so it doesn’t look like you’re giving them the silent treatment or going off in a huff. If you’re not allowed to do that, find out what you’re allowed to do that isn’t walking on eggshells or tolerating their nonsense. (Unless you’ll be out soon enough that you don’t want to bring this up with your current supervisor.)

  67. LizB*

    I’m doing my first real reference check today! My organization outsources reference checks for external applicants to a third-party service (which I of course have feelings about, but the decision is way above my pay grade), but I’m looking at hiring an internal candidate right now, and managers get to do their own checks for internal folks.

  68. Junior Dev*

    On a more positive note, I’m taking a code school student to lunch today.

    Any advice for mentoring someone like this? I am going to try and convey that I have opinions on what would be beneficial for her but I’m not the expert on anything, and also, I can refer her in my company but I can’t magically get her a job.

    1. Irene Adler*

      Find out what your mentee is interested post-school or what she plans to do with the skills she’s acquiring. Let them talk about this. Then ask a question about “what’s your plan for making that happen?”. Mentee’s response will indicate where she needs your advice/suggestions/thoughts.

  69. Bridget*

    I’m going to a three-day training for work in a couple weeks that I will have to drive about three hours to and stay overnight for two nights. I’m a salaried manager. I was told to work half a day on the day the training begins and drive up in the afternoon. There is a reception that evening and then training for the next two days.

    However, I’ve been told I’ll only be compensated for half a day of work on the first day, despite spending 3 hours in the car for work and then an additional two at the reception. My boss says this is because the reception is “optional,” but I didn’t get that vibe from the schedule I got, which indicated that registration and distribution of materials will occur at the reception.

    This isn’t the hill I want to die on, but is it just me or does it seem ridiculous that I wouldn’t get paid for a full day on the day I drive to training? (I’m being compensated for the other two days I spend at training.) If I should push back on this, how?

    1. ContentWrangler*

      You should absolutely push back on this. Especially because their math doesn’t make any sense, even if they aren’t counting the reception. If you typically work a roughly 8 hour work day, and you’re working a half day before you leave so around 4 hours, then adding in the 3 hours of drive time, that’s 7 work hours before the “optional” reception. You’re not driving three hours for kicks. You should be compensated for a full day.

      1. Bridget*

        Right, that’s kind of what I was thinking. I’ve only been here about two months though, and while I’ve been doing really well (and have been told so a bunch of times), I’m not sure I have the capital to spend on this.

    2. Anonanonanon*

      If you are salaried, I thought that they couldn’t decide to pay you less if you work fewer hours on a given week. Are they charging you PTO for required training? Because that is messed up.

      1. Bridget*

        I’m new so I don’t have any PTO yet. The time is unpaid. I’m always unclear on the whole salaried thing because I’ve been sick a bunch the past few weeks and don’t have sick time yet, so I’ve had to take those days unpaid as well.

        1. TCO*

          If you’re exempt, it’s legal to dock your salary if YOU choose to take the time off for personal reasons AND you take off a full day. It’s not legal to dock your salary for taking off a half-day, and particularly not when your employer is dictating that time off (for work purposes!).

          You could approach your employer like Alison recommends in these situations: “I’m concerned that WE will inadvertently run afoul of federal law if my salary is docked for this trip. Exempt employees can only have their salary docked when they take off a full day for personal reasons. This isn’t a full day and I’m using the time to travel for work, not for personal reasons. Can we adjust the plan to keep us on the right side of the law?”

          1. Overworked and Underpaid*

            THIS. Please push back on it and I second the recommendation to follow Allison’s language. I had to fight for my overtime pay around the same time frame and used this “we” tactic. It took 6 months, but it worked.

        2. fposte*

          Just to be clear, because this is so bizarre. You get a regular salary of $4000 per month. They’re saying this month you’ll get $3800 because of driving to the day of training?

          If so, wow, are they asking for trouble.

          1. Bridget*

            Basically, apparently.

            For what it’s worth I’m in hospitality which is notoriously stingy (no PTO until I’m here a year, and even then it’s only a week and gets capped at 3 once you’re here for like, ten years).

            Do I talk to my boss first or HR? I ask mainly because my boss is super busy and I try not to bug her if I can help it.

            1. fposte*

              Go to your boss with TCO’s language–you don’t want them to get in trouble by treating you as a non-exempt employee and thus incurring OT.

              1. Bridget*

                I just sent her a quick “clarifying” email about it since the original communications were via email as well, using basically TCO’s language. It’s possible she may have even misread “opening reception” as “optional reception” so I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt (especially because I don’t think she’s out to screw me over or anything, just might not be informed on the law). I’ll update when I hear anything :)

              2. Bridget*

                So, it looks like *I* misunderstood. In her original email she said I should work half a day “to get paid” and then drive to the training. I asked after that if the training was paid, and she said Tuesday evening was not because it was “optional” but that the next two days were paid. So that’s where my confusion stemmed from.

                And now she probably thinks I’m a huge tool because she responded that my email sounded aggressive (I really didn’t think it did!!!) :( so I apologized via email and said I read a lot about employment law (joked that everyone’s gotta have a hobby) and I will also apologize in person. SIGH.

                1. fposte*

                  Ooookay. TBH, I’m still really confused about what’s going on with the pay, and I don’t see any reason to think your email was aggressive.

                  Here’s what would happen with most exempt employees and the three-day training: your pay will be exactly the same. It’s so standard that it wouldn’t even get mentioned. You don’t get extra money for training; you don’t get less money for being there rather than being at your desk. I don’t get what she’s talking about with the working half day to be paid and is training paid or not.

                2. Bridget*

                  I think she basically meant, make sure to work at least half a day so I DO get paid for that day (ie, it doesn’t look like I’m taking a personal day). Her saying that is what prompted me to ask if the rest of the training would be paid, and she said that it would be, but that the first night was an optional reception. Which led me to believe I wasn’t getting paid a full day for Tuesday, hence the clarifying. Ugh.

                3. fposte*

                  @Bridget–ah, okay, so what she was really saying was “Tuesday isn’t just a day off until the reception–you still have to work in the office until it’s time to leave.” I still think she kind of led you into the weeds on the optional reception/Tuesday evening stuff.

                  And she really should get over this; if she doesn’t, that’s a sign about her, not about you.

                4. Bridget*

                  I apologized again in person and she was fine. She just said my email sounded “lawyer-y” (which makes sense given the language I used) and clarified that the policy is that we have to work until noon to get compensated for the full day…which still seems out of the norm in terms of laws but at this point I’m not gonna dig myself deeper.

    3. TCO*

      If you were an hourly employee, FLSA requires that you be paid for travel time to overnight destinations if the travel falls within your normal work hours. Even though you’re not actually subject to this law, you could point out that it’s standard practice to count travel time like yours as paid work hours.

      I assume that your boss is telling you to take PTO for the travel time (since they can’t actually deduct from your salary if you’re exempt). That’s completely ridiculous–why should you have to use vacation time to attend a company-mandated training? Are they going to then give you comp time for any of the other training days that stretch beyond 8 hours (as they often do)? If you have an HR department you should contact them just to “seek clarification of the travel policy” and see if you can get their backing here. This is not normal practice.

  70. Decima Dewey*

    Hello all. I’ve been posting on the Open Thread for the past couple of weeks about a situation at my workplace. To sum up: my library branch doesn’t have a Children’s Librarian, so there’s a desk with a computer that two staff members have been fighting over. Fergus (a guard) and Fergusina (a library assistant) have been complaining to me about each other, sent me (and my boss) dueling emails. Boss wanted to arrange a meeting, hear both sides, and come to a resolution. Fergusina called out Every. Day. we had scheduled the meeting for last week. Additionally she sent an email saying she felt threatened by Fergus, a serious charge since he’s branch security.

    This week, we had the meeting. Boss asked Fergusina and Fergus to present their version of events (briefly), asking that they not interrupt each other, that they speak respectfully with no name calling. Fergusina went first and tried to bring up everything Fergus had said or done to annoy her since she came here. But she was unable to provide any examples of threatening words or behavior from Fergus, and boss told her so. Fergus presented his side of the story following boss’s instructions, and Fergusina interrupted him to say “that’s a lie” and to call Fergus “sneaky”. She also maintained that all the library assistants had problems with Fergus. I pointed out that Jane, Lucinda, John, and Joseph had not complained to me and asked that Fergusina limit her comments to speaking for herself.

    Upshot was that boss said that Fergus’s job required him to be on the floor at all times except breaks, whereas many of Fergusina’s duties could be done in the workroom, so Fergus would be allowed to use the open computer until we get a Children’s librarian. Fergusina said she knew the meeting would turn out that way and refused to back down from her claim that Fergus made her feel threatened.

    After Fergus left the meeting, boss and I talked to Fergusina about her behavior in the meeting, disrespecting everyone, and calling her out on the name-calling. Her response was “it was a verb” (adjective, not to split hairs). She agreed to avoid Fergus as far as she could in a small branch. I told her that while I respected her religious beliefs, Fergusina should be mindful that she doesn’t know the religious beliefs (or lack of same) of everyone she works with or who comes into the branch, and that I want the branch to be a welcoming place to people of all beliefs.

    So they agreed to disagree, Fergusina “knows her truths”, and today she sent an email to me and to boss which she signed Minister Fergusina Lastname. OTOH open hostility has been averted, so a small victory overall.

    1. zora*

      wow, she is a piece of work.

      Yay for the small victory, but this still is pretty ridiculous. Can you document what just happened, as in: She was told to keep her religious beliefs to herself and then sent another email signed “Minister.” This is open insubordination. And then use this documentation to eventually get her fired finally?? This just sounds like way too much drama to deal with in the workplace!

      1. Decima Dewey*

        I’ve set up a folder in Outlook to document her antics. Firing is unlikely. She’s on FMLA and has an HR folder full of glowing evaluations for her work as a library assistant. Truth to tell, she does a good job when she isn’t driving coworkers insane.

      2. Observer*

        She sounds like a piece of work, but forbidding her to call herself “Minister” goes to far.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      sheesh. So glad I don’t have to work with Fergusina – she sounds exhausting!

    3. valentine*

      Why not speak to them separately? Why does the guard need a computer that’s for an unstaffed role?

  71. Analyst Dos*

    The newest person on our team “C” (now approaching 9 months with us) is a dud. Should coworker “A” and I bring it up to our supervisor or will that look bad?

    C and I used to work on another team together and she was great, so I’m not sure what’s happening now. At this point she is annoying the $(-& out of me and A. We can barely interact with her now out of annoyance. She is dragging us down and causing us to do triple the work since she still hasn’t mastered the fundamentals of our job. She sends every single email to our sup for review before she sends it out. Every. Single. Email. She also forwards all emails assigned to her asking what to do. At the beginning she used to send emails to me for review, which was understood but, hello, stop doing that! Can I tell her to stop? Occasionally she still sends emails to me to review and they are fine.

    Now I’m just venting…anyway, after being a long time AAM reader, I know that sometimes it’s just not our place to say anything. Supervisor continues to review/consult every email and he seems fine with it. Do we just keep our mouths such and seeth on the inside? A and I might crack.

    1. CTT*

      If the supervisor hasn’t said anything and doesn’t seem bothered by it, let it go. It’s not your problem. If C asks you to review something, you can say that you think she’s experienced enough now not to need you to review things, but otherwise, it’s not your place to intervene. If there’s something else quantifiable she’s doing that slows down your work that your supervisor may not know about, then you can bring that up with her, but bringing it up to your supervisor without addressing it with her first.

  72. KatieKate*

    So I reached out to my contact at former job application place and they directed me to the actual hiring manager who asked me to fill out an application. Fine. Then they remembered that I would technically an internal transfer (different departments and locations but still technically under the same umbrella org) and needed to talk to HR. …..Fine. But the HR person is out until Monday and no one knows if I need to tell me current manager if that I’m even considering this job.

    I haven’t even gotten an interview yet, and they’re pretty far into the process with other candidates, so I don’t want this to get back to my manager unless they want to bring me in to talk. And I think my manager would overall be fine with it, but there’s been a lot of movement on my team recently and I think he’s a little more sensitive at the moment (plus, he just went to bat for me about a promotion and a raise, thought neither have gone through yet.)

    Why is bureaucracy like this?

    1. KatieKate*

      Oh! And I also don’t know if anyone else from HR has/is planning to email my manager about this. So that’s hanging over my head at the moment

  73. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

    The company that contacted last week rejected me. At least it was quick.

    One of the employees here broke up with her boyfriend. He ended it by text on company time, and she cried, kicked and sobbed loudly for the rest of the day. It was so uncomfortable and I didn’t know what to do. Comfort her? Try to work as usual, ignoring the major drama that was going on next to me? I think the entire company knows about it by now.

    1. Berry*

      That sucks, all around. If you have a decent relationship with her, maybe a quick “I’m sorry, that sounds terrible” comment would have been okay, unless it would’ve dragged into a longer discussion. Kicking things definitely sounds like crossing a line when you’re at work, though breakups suck. (Over text message! Oof.)

      Did everyone in the office ignore her while this was happening?

    2. mrs_helm*

      I’d be tempted to say “Hi, sweetie. Sounds like you’re having a rough day. Maybe you should go home sick?” Kindly, if I like her a lot.

  74. Elsie*

    Does anyone have any experience with the career field of Medical Assisting? I’m enrolled in a medical assisting program and starting next month. The job placement rate for the school is very high. I’m just looking for an honest opinion on the pros/cons of the career (since schools aren’t always 100% honest). Thank you!

    1. ..Kat..*

      As a nurse, I see this as a career with a lot of satisfaction, decent pay, and decent work/life balance. This is from what I’ve read and the MAs that I have talked with.

  75. Sled dog mama*

    Today is a bad day for me. Its the anniversary of my daughter’s passing. My supervisor wants to have my performance review today (it got put off earlier in the week due to an emergency) I just want to sit at my desk keep my head down and focus on work, if I can do that I can make it through the day without crying in front of my coworkers. But being super focused and not letting anything break in is clearly not happening because I’m reading AAM not working.
    I’m not worried about what’s in my review (it was good, rated as meeting or exceeding expectations in everything) since I got the written copy earlier in the week I just have to meet with supervisor to sign saying I received it and find out about a raise.
    I just don’t want to be at work but didn’t feel like I could say to my co-worker “you can take any other day just not that one”. It’s not like I have a claim on this day off.

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I’m so sorry about your daughter. Can you explain to your boss or ask to reschedule until next week? I’m sure they’d understand …

    2. Jess R.*

      Hey, I’m so sorry for your loss. Anniversaries are so hard, and I’m sending all my love and gentle thoughts from far away. Take care of yourself as best you can today. <3

    3. Sled dog mama*

      That my by the most disjointed thing I’ve ever written. The thing about the coworker being off is because there are three of us one works Sun-Thursday (he handles a lot of tasks that must be done outside normal working hours) and two that work M-F. The other guy who works M-F took today off so I’m stuck here (legally one of the three of us must be on site).

    4. LizB*

      Many internet hugs coming your way. I think you kind of do have a claim on this day off, or at least any reasonable coworker would want to give you this day if at all possible. I also think your boss, if they’re reasonable, should not make you do your performance review today; at minimum they should just let you sign the paper copy and that should be the extent of the meeting, at best they should let you go home and have the full review another day.

    5. fposte*

      I would ask my manager if we can reschedule and cut myself some slack for a day of coasting. If you can leave early, do.

      I’m sorry for your loss and for what a painful day today must be for you.

    6. Not That Jane*

      Internet hugs, if welcome, from another mama who’s lost a child. It’s rough. It’s OK to be gentle with yourself.

      1. Sled dog mama*

        Thanks, I have a close work friend who is a widow and we help each other out when we have those days that no one else gets. She told me the same thing earlier this week so I will try to listen

  76. Junior Dev*

    For those that work in organizations large enough to have many departments: how long do you have to be at a job before it’s appropriate to apply internally to other jobs?

    If you could state your industry and sector (private/non-profit) government) it would help too.

    I have a specific scenario in mind but I am wondering how people feel about this generally.

    2. Greysh*

      I work in medical devices, at a company that is owned by an extremely large conglomerate. Some departments span across multiple companies, but they are all considered internal positions. Standard here for applying to another position is at least one-two years, minimum.

    3. Fairly Odd*

      I’d say at least a year, and that’s assuming that you are a strong employee with a good track record, good evaluations etc. More likely 18 months to 2 years, honestly.

  77. Bayley*

    I took a job 5 years ago because my family was forced to relocate, and it was never a great fit. I had many years of experience at big teapot companies that made really great teapots and now I am working at a company that makes teapots as a sideline, has pretty low teapot quality standards, employs teapot makers who really haven’t made teapots before, and isn’t even sure it wants to or should make teapots but the board tells them they should so they do. I put up with this as long as I could because of my family situation but a few months ago, they decided to hire a person who not only had no experience with teapots, but also hadn’t really heard of teapots before and was unfamiliar with the need for a spout, a handle, a place for water and tea, etc. and they decided I should report to the person. I don’t mind working for people who don’t have as much experience as I do as long as they are reasonable and interested to learn, but this person doesn’t really think she needs to know about teapots and just kind of ricochets around being ineffective and causing massive delays in our teapot making work. I have asked to be reassigned but they are paying this person a big salary and I think I have to work for them to justify the salary. In response to my asking to be reassigned my supervisor re-wrote my job description and put in a lot of stuff about gathering the grass and fairy dust that will be used to weave the teapots, etc. – just a bunch of stuff that made frighteningly little sense.

    Today I told my department director that I didn’t think this was going to work out and asked for help leaving the company in the most positive way I could, and she agreed and said she would contact some people at other local teapot companies on my behalf.

    I am kind of freaking out – was I wrong to do this?? Did I mess up???

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      I have never been in your situation before, so my word may not mean much here, but I honestly think you did the exact right thing. Your department director is refusing to manage your supervisor, and would–apparently–rather lose you than deal with her. (Shakes head.) On the up side, it’s a very positive thing that your director is basically scoping out potential jobs for you to consider. However, you should also be job searching yourself, if you haven’t already started. I’m sorry this happened to you. I hope you find something else soon and can get out of there as soon as possible.

      1. Bayley*

        Thanks for your support! I am a bit limited by family obligations but I am actively searching and sending out resumes. :)

  78. Salary SOS*

    I was caught off guard in a phone interview and accidentally lowballed myself. I have an in person interview next week. How do I politely/professionally say that I’m actually looking for a higher salary than I stated over the phone? (Market average for the position is about $6,000 more than what I said I was looking for).

    Thanks!

    2. ..Kat..*

      After your in person interview: “Now that I have more information about the position, a salary range of $X to $Y makes sense.”

  79. Coqui*

    How do I handle biological noises made by a co-worker?

    I share an office with a 45-year-old man who snorts, passes gas, and belches several times an hour. To my knowledge he does not have any medical reasons for the behavior, which I have considered. I can’t move offices and we are stuck together for the duration of our employment. He was hired a year and a half ago and the noises have progressively worsened. He’s an all around gross and obnoxious man and I may be over-sensitive to these noises so I’d like some insight. I’ve talked about this guy before on askamanager so the story may sound familiar.

    For some background: He was placed on a PIP before his probation was over due to issues relating to sexual harassment (leering at women and making comments about them to other people, an obsession with bringing sex into any conversations, watching women on the camera system, etc. – it goes on and on and I could make a whole post on the toxicity of the situation) and was still hired on full time. His motivation dropped off the charts after probation and for the past year he has goofed around on Facebook and watching movies on the clock while I barely kept our 2-person department going. It took 6 meetings with boss and another person vouching for his behavior for him to get placed on another PIP last week. His behavior has slightly improved.

    Since I’ve had to deal with this torment for the past year I’ve become incredibly sensitive to any interaction I have with him and the biological noises are pushing me over the edge. He refuses to blow his nose so he snorts mucus then makes the most awful hocking sound and spits into the trashcan. He will also do this down the hall where the managers offices are, while on the phone talking with clients, etc. and nobody has said anything to him. He loudly belches about 3 times an hour then will “cutely” say “ex-ca-yuuuuse a-me!”. I wear headphones but can’t have my music loud or wear noise-canceling ones since I need to listen for the phone. He has recently started passing gas several times a day since his wife watched a documentary on veganism and converted his family. She packs him a vegan lunch and he will eat it before lunchtime then take off to McDonalds during his break and get a meat-based meal with cash so his wife doesn’t find out. By the time I come back from my lunch the office smells so putrid that it seeps into the hallway. There are days I refuse to go back into my own office because of the smell. I finally snapped one day and told him to cut it out and he denied doing anything, but the next day he brought in a Hawaiian Breeze bathroom air freshener. The office now smells like coconut-pineapple flatulence.

    In the time that I took to write this he belched twice and snorted/hocked 3 times. I don’t feel like this is an issue I can take to my boss (plus, at this point it would feel pedantic to bring up anything else with boss) but it’s making me physically ill and I’m considering finding a new job. I haven’t talked to co-worker about the belching and snorting because it feels like a weird request. Any advice? Do I just try to ignore it?

    1. fposte*

      Where’s your manager in this? While she can’t put him on a PIP for stinky farts and probably won’t for loud belching, you should be able to alert her to how hard it is for you to work with him. You say “You can’t move offices”–has your manager said that? Is there an open desk or a cubicle you could sit in? Right now your employer is risking losing a good employee because of a bad one; that’s usually something a manager would like to know.

    2. Espeon*

      Mate you’re not being too sensitive about this, I feel sick just reading about him!

      I work somewhere where lazy, horrid, sexist men somehow pass probation too, so I can commiserate on that aspect.

    3. Whoa*

      You absolutely can bring this up with your boss and if I were you, I would- his workplace habits are unprofessional, rude, and disruptive. It’s affecting your ability to do your job.

    4. Bea*

      He hocks loogies into a trash can while on the phone?

      Yeah you can report that kind of behavior. It’s outrageous and he needs to be put on notice given he’s already been on two PIPs.

      I would make it clear you can’t stay in the situation. Not in a “choose him or me” but a matter if fact “my environment is so unpleasant I’ll have to leave if you don’t fix it.” We have standards in offices and he’s not meeting a single one.

    5. valentine*

      I hope you’re job searching because your boss is championing a perpetrator of sexual harassment. Alleged veganism may well increase his gas, but he’s not forced to void it in your space. If there were a nonhuman gas leak, where would you work? Can you get portable devices and forward calls? What if you ask to switch offices with someone or to work literally anywhere else except the actual restroom and to have an HR person work from your space randomly so they can get a whiff? You might also ask for/bring in a landline phone that lights up when ringing.

    6. ..Kat..*

      He may be doing this on purpose- a passive aggressive sexist bodily effluvium. If you feel you are valued by your boss, can you ask her why you (a productive contributor to the company) have to put up with this toxic environment created by a poor performer?

  80. NewCulture*

    I am a relatively new manager (about a year) in a department that has several staff who have been here for decades. There has been a lot of stagnation in this department and previous managers were content with the status quo and we have not kept up with where we need to be. I was hired in part to help make some needed and significant changes.

    A lot of my employees are apprehensive, but in general I’m very proud of how willing they are to try to change. One employee however is very negative and taking this badly. I’ve given her some duties that she hasn’t had before and she hates them. They only take up about 10%-15% of her time, but it’s enough to ruin her work experience. I thought very carefully before assigning them to her, and I need her to be doing these.

    The problem is, I’m hearing from everyone else in the department how upset she is, but not from her. She complains frequently, warns other people that all the “old-timers” are about to get fired (not true), talks about how much she hates it here now, that her skills would be put to better use elsewhere, etc (she IS very skilled at several parts of the job). A few of my employees have said that there is a lot of tension and they aren’t sure what to do about it.

    To my face, she is much less dramatic. She hides her feelings from me. Other staff have told me they encouraged her to talk to me when she complains, but she won’t. How do I bring this up with her, without betraying the confidences of the other staff? I think a very light touch is best for managers when there is an interpersonal conflict between employees, but I’m worried this is going beyond that, how do I know? I don’t want her to feel like she has no one to confide in, but I’m attempting some significant culture change and I need her to stop tanking it.

    One other note: I worry one of the reasons she is talking about getting fired (I’ve never even mentioned anything remotely about this) is because she is truly unwilling to make any changes. I’ve known this employee for much longer than my past year of managing her, and this would fit in with her personality. She’s also hinted to other staff that she may refuse some of the changes I have planned. So I’m worried this conversation will backfire if I bring it up, and she will just dig her heels in. Another one of her M.O.’s is to simply get up and walk away, and as a manager, I’m not what the best way to respond to that is.

    1. Sunshine Brite*

      I don’t see what you described as mainly an interpersonal conflict. She’s demonstrating a lot of passive aggressiveness right now and seems to be preparing for outward aggressiveness of not completing work tasks. You have to address this with her even if she’s not the one to bring it up.

      If she gets up to leave, indicate that you aren’t finished. I think you know your work culture best on if that results in some sort of discipline or another talk but there should be a consequence of some sort.

    2. Irene Adler*

      She won’t discuss her issues with you because she wants to foment dissent/upset amongst her co-workers. You know, misery loves company sort of thing.
      You can try to get her to open up to you regarding her issues. So do as Sunshine Brite suggested.
      If she causes so much upset for her co-workers you may have to relieve her of all her duties. Change needs to happen here. Offer your support to her for getting her through the changes that will occur (maybe all her fomenting is really just a cry for support/attention because she fears changes). But do not let her be an impediment to implementing these changes.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      She sounds like a toxic element that will ruin your other employees’ work experiences. Nobody wants to work with a chronic whiner who doesn’t ever want to adjust to change, outright rejects new ideas or tasks, and talks about any group being at risk of getting fired (when she is the only one who should be at risk). I think the key that brings this beyond interpersonal differences is that she’s upsetting multiple people for the same work-related reasons and talking about being insubordinate – this is a specific employee problem.

      I’m not a manager but I think you need to meet with her and tell her directly using the phrasing you put in your comment above, “I thought very carefully before assigning these tasks to you, and I need you to be doing these.” Doing the work assigned is not optional. Maybe put in wording about how she needs to bring any concerns about the changes to you directly so that you can work on resolving them together.

      If she agrees, hold her to it. If she doesn’t, talk about how to transition her out of the role. If she walks away, tell her you assume that means she is thinking it over and she has X amount of time (hours or days, not weeks) to give you a response or you will assume she does not agree to the new work and proceed accordingly. (Or, just state that you assume she does not agree without the delayed response option.)

      A light touch is for those employees who might be nervous about the change but have willing and positive attitudes. For someone like this, direct conversation is best because you’re laying out exactly what the expectations are: adjust to the change, minimize the negative comments, or find a better fit elsewhere.

  81. Frank Doyle*

    I’m planning to leave my job soon, without another one lined up. (I want to open a small business, but that’ll take a little while to get set up.) I’m getting the vibe at work that they might let me go anyway. It’s a super small company so there’s no such thing as a PIP, and it’s possible they’ll fire me with no real warning. Should I get in front of it so that I can say (in case the small business thing doesn’t work out and I have to eventually find a job working for someone else) that I resigned rather than being fired? (I was fired from my last job as well, also without warning, after being there four months.) Or should I wait to resign on my own time, and if they fire me first, so much the better, because then I could collect unemployment for six months, which would help a lot — as I said I won’t be working for some months, and I wouldn’t expect to pull a salary for a year or so anyway, so it would really help out. It would end up being about $16K or $17K. What do you think? If they’re really thinking about firing me, even if I get in front of it, they presumably wouldn’t give a very positive reference, right?

    (I get the sense that my boss likes me as a person, but I’m SUPER SLOW at my work and a real budget-buster. I’m good at some parts of my job but not enough of them, which is why I’m looking to change careers.)

  82. Jennifer*

    So my office has bullying problems, we are somehow always too broke to hire new people and no one knows why, a billion things are broken and will never be fixed, our clientele is perpetually stressed out and miserable, and most folks are very unhappy.
    We’re getting a new boss in another month or so and we’ve been notified that she wants to talk to everyone one on one about what issues they have in the office and what their career goals are.
    I have no idea what the hell I’d say. I don’t have any career goals because I am at a dead end here. I can’t get another job for crap, my boss tried to get my level raised and was literally ignored, and I’m not in any position to advance anyway. My goal at this point is “don’t get fired.”
    As for my issues with the office…I don’t know what to say about the rest of it. How blunt and honest should one be?
    New boss seems nice enough on my very brief time of meeting her, but I don’t know her and frankly, don’t know if she can be trusted to be told the super honest truth about anything. Especially given that one of the bullies is very high up and knows to kiss behind of those above.
    So what do y’all think? What should I say and how politically correct should it be?

    1. Irene Adler*

      I wouldn’t divulge anything until you know what new boss will do with your statements (share them with folks friendly to the bully, act on them, use them to fire you, ignore them, trash you because of them).
      Might try to engage her in talking about what her plans are for the dept. Like asking her to outline any career-related things she plans to engage in for her reports. Or ask her to talk about what issues SHE sees in the dept and what she is thinking about doing about them.

  83. Windchime*

    For those of you with long commutes, how do you balance whether or not to drive and pay for parking vs taking public transportation? If I take public transportation, it usually takes me anywhere from 60 to 90 minutes each way, but it’s a lot less expensive. If I drive, I can easily get from my door to my desk in 45 minutes on most days but I have to leave the house at the crack of dawn (5:15 AM) and it costs $17/day to park plus the cost of gas.

    Driving my car is more comfortable; the seat is comfy, I can listen to whatever I want, and am not crammed in like a sardine with uncomfortable, hard seating. But the expense! I can afford it, but it just seems super expensive. To help offset the cost, I’ve started bringing my lunch nearly every day (instead of eating out). My back trouble is way less of a problem when I drive as well.

    So how do you balance it out?

    1. The Person from the Resume*

      I’d probably drive. I’m willing to pay more for convenience and efficiency. I value my time and a daily increased commute adds up to a lot of time not really enjoying life. I have always made choices that decrease my daily commute. I also have money to afford it and prefer to brown bag it for work because it’s likely healthier than eating out all the time. The biggest factor for me is I’d have a lot of trouble leaving at 0515 (!!!!).

      It’s up to you and what you can afford and what you value. I’d probably be driving almost everyday and being slightly grumpy about the outrageous parking costs. If you’re looking for how to justify it though focusing on the life part of work-life balance to a good reason to make a decision.

    2. k.k*

      That’s one of those personal preference things that will be different for everyone. I basically make a mental pro/con list, and base it off that. It sounds like you’ve done that already. From what you’ve said here, it seems like you clearly prefer driving, but you’re getting caught up on the fact that on paper it costs more and therefore seems an illogical choice. Just remember, things that aren’t money have costs and values. Your comfort has value, your time has value, your back pain is certainly a cost. Don’t forget to add those into you mental valuation of this.

    3. Anonanonanon*

      I hate driving so I take public transportation for my 60-90 minute commute. But I get on at the first stop, so I always get a seat and can relax and read. I work long hours, so I enjoy the guaranteed down time every day.

    4. Frank Doyle*

      Personally, I’d probably take the public transpo because I could nap and/or read. (Can’t you listen to whatever you want on a train with headphones?)

    5. Susan K*

      I am fortunate enough to have a short commute, so I can’t say from personal experience, but I think I would add up the cost and consider whether the benefit is worth it. Let’s say it works out to $20/day more to drive than to take public transportation. Would you pay $20 to have an extra hour of free time and more comfortable commute? What would you do with that $20 if you weren’t spending it on driving, and it is better than the benefits you get from driving? Also, does it have to be one or the other? Can you drive some days and take public transportation other days? Can you make a deal with yourself that you’ll take public transportation Monday-Thursday and treat yourself to driving on Friday (or whatever day/days you prefer, depending on how many days you’re willing to pay extra to drive)? Can you use the cost of driving to motivate yourself to do something else (e.g., use the time you save to go to the gym)?

    6. Anonymous Poster*

      The nature of my work lets me take some of it on the road with me, reviewing papers or editing some items for my use only, or other reading. If I’m worried that word of the stuff shouldn’t get out, I use a privacy screen on my computer and find a corner on the subway to hole up in. My commute takes me ~1 hour each way and costs less than driving myself would be since I can walk the half mile to the subway stop. Driving would save me about 15 minutes, so it’s a different tradeoff than you have. Taking mass transit saves me about $5, plus gas and wear and tear on the car, which could be $15-$20 per day, ultimately.

      In your shoes I’d drive, but that’s because I’d argue that the 1.5 hrs of my life I’d get back is worth the $17+maintenance costs per day. Think of it in dollar terms of how much you value your time, and that will help you make the tradeoff justifiable. Then you can keep pointing back to it (Like I have done) whenever you second guess yourself. So for me, since I can do stuff on my phone and spend less time in the office because I do work on the subway, it’s worth it for me not to drive. The half hour I’d save, I actually wouldn’t realize because I use the time on the subway for other things that I cannot do while I’m driving.

      Well, I could do those things, and I’d fit in around here, but I don’t think it’s safe…

    7. Natalie*

      So obviously everyone’s different, but I think if I were in this situation I would first look at how often the public transit commute is in that 60 minute area versus that 90 minute area. I don’t really like driving *or* getting up early, so 33% extra travel time would be worth it to avoid both. But 100% extra travel time would very much not be worth it.

      As far as the cost, assuming it’s more of a mental/emotional thing rather than an actual budget problem, it might help to keep in mind that you’re only spending $17 to save a full hour and a half every day. That’s only $11/hour, which is probably a lot less than you make. So your time is totally worth it by that measure alone!

    8. Chaordic One*

      I previously lived in an L.A. suburb and worked a series of temp jobs in the downtown. I usually prefer to drive if I can, but when I worked downtown, the traffic was so bad that I didn’t save any time by driving and so I took public transportation and saved a small bit of money (as well as wear and tear on my car).

  84. Free Meerkats*

    Wheee!!! The ride gets better!

    My boss is due to retire any moment, as in he could call in retired. He’s on vacation right now, when I talked to him yesterday he said he’s practicing not coming to work. My grandboss, with whom I had a great relationship, moved to a different agency last August; he was very much in favor of me taking the manager job when boss retires. I have a good relationship with the person who took his position, she also supports that promotion. We got a new mayor in January, one of her initial actions was to fire our department director (grandboss’s boss) and put in an interim director. I had a reasonable relationship with the former director, he knew who I was and what I do. The new guy now knows who I am, I did a presentation for him about who we are, what we do, and why we’re here (the Feds say we have to have this program), but has no clue how important I’ve been to the success of our program.

    We just got notified that grandboss is leaving the City, her last day is less than two weeks away. There’s no one in the wings who is her logical successor. And the new mayor is bringing in an organizational consultant to look at our whole department. While that could bring some needed changes, I’m worried that my promotion may end up up in the air. And my boss, being the cynical SOB he is, is very likely to take reorganization as his cue to end his 35+ year employment with the City.

    So, in a week and a half I’ll be operating under an acting director with no experience in Public Works, no operations superintendent, a boss who is essentially RIP (Retired In Place), and a pending reorganization. It may be time to start drinking heavily.

    1. Anono-me*

      If you can, it might be helpful to vet evaluation and/or letters of commendation from everyone before they leave.

  85. PhD Spouse*

    My spouse is going to start a PhD program (sciences) this fall. I don’t really know what to expect. I’ll either be able to work remotely from home or get a new job in the area.

    Any words of wisdom? Things I should expect?

    1. Simone R*

      I’m a little unclear on what you’re asking-are you wondering what it will be like for you or for your spouse? With regards to the social aspect, most people in my phd program don’t bring their significant others when we’re hanging out. This is mostly because we tend to get into long conversation about our program, our research, gossip about professors etc. Basically things that would be enormously boring for anyone outside the program and we end up talking them even if we’re trying not to! I think people in graduate programs can get a little cliquey and self involved about their research which makes it hard to incorporate people who can’t participate in those discussions. I’d be prepared for that part of the social aspect-don’t take being left out personally or be willing to do your own thing!

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m the partner of a fourth year. We relocated for his program. Some tips:
      – Expect stress. How does your spouse deal with it? My partner is very much Not Great at managing his, so I have learned to balance it. Sometimes he needs to communicate better, but other times I just plan to take on much of the burden at home. This was especially key when he was a few months out from his comprehensive exams, which are the most important exams of his career. I’m going into his fifth year fully expecting to manage just about everything we do and stay out of his way.

      – Making friends with other students and their partners can be a little weird. My partner and a bunch of people in his cohort have become besties. I’m not a fan of a lot of them, nor do I get on well with their SOs. A lot of that is the age/culture difference; I’m six years older than my partner and he’s a good five years older than most people in his cohort, plus I have a senior-level corporate job in a completely unrelated field. So I focused more on finding my own friend group. There are a couple of people I met through his program that I love, though. One couple we hang out with occasionally is great, and no one else has met the wife, because she refuses to attend happy hours or parties where it’s just people from the program. I completely get it; sometimes they all get together and talk only about their program or the work, and it gets boring really fast.

      – Your spouse’s schedule will be an adjustment, and it will likely change, sometimes on a semester-by-semester basis. However, in our case, his schedule has become really flexible, which is awesome. He can be home for deliveries and maintenance people and dog care.

      – A lot of our time together gets eaten up by his work. Last Sunday, for instance, he had to work on a project and we barely talked to each other all day. This works really well for us because I need my down/alone time, and we make it a point to spend most evenings together.

      – I don’t find that I have to spend a lot of time at department functions. This varies by program. There’s only one event a year where I’m expected to show up, and even that isn’t mandatory. Too bad, though, because I like a lot of his professors.

      – I worked from home when we first moved, then I found a job out of the house. Neither was better than the other. The first job out of the house was terrible, really stressful, and it took a big toll on both of us, but it did get me out of the house. The important thing for me was establishing my own life, separate from his PhD program.

      Good luck!

    3. AlmostAcademic*

      One thing to be prepared for is a lot of new stress and emotions- a PhD program can be a totally different world, even if your spouse has been working in research or academia for a while before this. Be prepared for them to feel off-kilter, trying to settle into a new environment and schedule for a while. You’ll likely be going through the same thing at the same time, and that can be difficult for couples.

      I would say try to schedule and build in protected time for the two of you – it’s easy for research / coursework / etc to take over so much time that you barely see each other, and being proactive about carving out time to focus on your relationship is just really healthy all around.

      Also, start talking through finances and saving up now – even if your partner is fully funded, it’s usually still a significant change in income and working out your priorities and how you are going to deal with it is very important.

    4. LadyKelvin*

      I think one of the biggest things that people in the workforce don’t realize/understand about a PhD program is that there is no “end of the workday”. It is nice because it is really flexible, but I found that I always felt like I should be working, evenings, weekends, and so if I wasn’t working I felt guilty for not working or was thinking about working. The pace of your PhD is ultimately up to you, so taking a day off just adds another day to the end of the program so you constantly have that fact in mind.

  86. Holawuuuuuuut*

    The head of my company has fallen in love with a “collaborative-based” organizational model, similar to HOLACRACY (Zappos) although it’s not that particular one. I just had a week of training on it and … whoa. It sounds kind of nice? Everyone works together! People have autonomy over their jobs and authority over their projects! Everyone innovates! Everyone has ideas! But also TOTALLY OVERWHELMING. I mean, I can barely get my regular job done and now you want me to be on Leadership Teams and collaborate with other departments and it sounds so TIRING. However, The Head Boss has made it clear that THIS IS HAPPENING and you need to get with the program, or get out.

    Does anyone have positive experiences with this kind of structure and can reassure me that it will a) actually Change My Life and that b) that change will be hands-down For The Better?

    1. Clever Name*

      I work for a company that has a very flat and matrixed organizational structure, and I really love it. So many opportunities! I feel I can have a real influence on the direction my company goes. If I want to learn something new, I can do it.

      There are a lot of downsides too. Sometimes it’s hard to know who to go to for certain things. It’s less predictable than a traditional hierarchy. I’ve noticed that the people who struggle most are those who like the structure and stability of government or large corporations.

      I never would have imagined that I’d thrive in a company like this, but it’s been mostly awesome.

  87. The Duke of Ritter Sport*

    Had a second interview with a company for an out of state position. So far the hiring process has proceeded very quickly and professionally. I applied 2 weeks ago and was contacted 3 days later. I am real excited and hope I make it to the final round!

  88. Ardita Fitz-Peters*

    I’m looking for advice about how to raise the subject of scheduling my annual review with my boss.

    I passed the one year mark at my job on Monday. I’ve never had a “normal” office type job before (not new to the working world, I’m in my late 30s but have always worked at a consultant/freelancer in the past) so I’m still kind of figuring out how things work. Part of the reason I choose to move into this type of position was because I wanted to get more structured feedback about my work in order to make better choices about advancing my career.

    While my boss gives me ad hoc feedback on day-to-day things (almost always positive), I’d really like a proper review where we can talk about how I’m doing overall and what I should be trying to improve in a more structured way. I also want to ask for a raise and a sit-stand desk.

    I asked my boss about how employee evaluations work at the 6 month mark and he was pretty dismissive and just said oh that’s done annually, you’re doing great don’t worry about it. I learned later that actually probationary employees, which I was for my first year, are supposed to have reviews quarterly but I guess he didn’t know that. He’s never managed anyone before, so I know this is all new to him as well.

    He hasn’t said anything about my one-year milestone or my probation ending yet, and so
    I’m starting to think that I’m not going to get a review unless I ask for it. What should I say when I bring it up? And how do I respond if he just says something like, “you’re doing amazing I’m so thrilled you’re here, don’t worry about it”?

    1. fposte*

      Say–in advance and in email, rather than orally–that you’re looking for his help in identifying two or three specific areas you could grow in. But also be aware you may not be able to mold him into the regularized feedback boss that you want.

  89. Savannnah*

    How do you navigate a non-position specific 2nd interview?

    Just moved to Portland where I have been long distance job searching from NYC the past 5 months.
    Through my network I managed to meet with the director of a center doing work in my field this past November and we had a great chat and discussion about what she does and her vision for the center and how I could add to that. She didn’t have a position open then but sent me some mixed messages, saying she hopes I can be on her team in May to celebrate one of their big achievements. I sent her a thank yo email the week before thanksgiving and a check in email in January and never heard back.
    My mom, who is a leader in our field, sat down next to her at a conference last week and she recognized my mom. They got to chatting and my mom mentioned that she had met me and discussed a little more about my background. After the conference the director called her to ask for my contact info and said ‘we need to find her a job’. I emailed her at the beginning of this week (as perviously planned since I’m finally in Portland) and now we have a meeting in her office in 2 weeks. I still don’t see any open positions posted but she thanked me for getting back in touch and wants to talk more about a project I was involved with at the national level. We had a good first meeting back in November but I’ve never done a 2nd interview without a position in mind and I felt a little weird the first time. It’s academia too, so even if she professes her love for me and all I stand for- she can’t just manifest a position for me. Any advice on how to prepare for this?

    1. zora*

      I’m thinking it could be one of two things: 1) She wants to figure out how to make a case for hiring you. or 2) She is trying to learn more about you so she can work her networks and ‘get you a job’ somewhere in the city.

      I think you could ask her what she’d like to talk about, and what she’s thinking, honestly! “Are you thinking there’s a possibility of a position at the center?” and see if she is more specific. Because I think your approach would be different for these two possibilities.

      If it’s 1), you should start by asking more about the center, and what the problems are she wants to solve! And do it almost like you are coming on as a consultant, analyze their problems and talk about how you would solve them. Using specific examples from other things you’ve done.

      If it’s 2) you would talk yourself up more. Talk about your experiences, try to think of the most interesting highlights from things you’ve done and what you can accomplish. And then the two of you would sort of strategize who she wants to reach out to, who might have positions, and what is the best way to position you as the right fit for those jobs.

      So, I’d do some preparation from both of those angles if I was you.

  90. NicoleK*

    We are in the processing of hiring an additional person to join our team of 2. My coworker and I have very, very different personalities and work styles. Sometimes we complement each other and sometimes it causes conflicts. And I do understand that what irritates me about my coworker may not be an issue with the new incoming person. What questions should I ask applicants to ensure that we’ll be able to work well with this new person.

  91. Desperate for help (TW: suicide)*

    Spouse is a HS teacher who has a student who really connected with him this year.

    Student revealed she is depressed and suicidal. Spouse had to talk her into giving him the razor in her backpack. Of course, as a mandated reporter, spouse told his principal and school social worker, who in turn alerted the student’s parents. They knew (it’s been an ongoing issue).

    The issue is that student won’t open up to her psychiatrist, the school social worker, or anyone…except my spouse. Who is NOT a trained professional who can handle this. The student spends as much time as she can in his classroom since she doesn’t have many friends and has a tough home life, but spouse is always afraid he’ll say the wrong thing when she starts unloading on him. It’s stressing him out. He’s tried detaching himself, but how can he do that without further unhinging the student?

    His school has been shockingly and frustratingly unhelpful in helping him deal with this. Any other teachers out there who’ve been through similar situations and can offer guidance?? Any psychologists who can offer tips on how he can safely remove himself from this situation? It’s getting so bad it makes him want to resign and quit teaching!

      1. Grad Student*

        Seconding this. Crisis lines are often (perhaps even always?) equipped to help helpers, not just those directly in crisis themselves.

    2. Sunshine Brite*

      If she’s refusing therapy and psychiatric intervention and actively has a means like a razor then she should have been seen at a hospital with a children’s psychiatric area. That’s something the school should have helped facilitate rather than just telling the parents without providing area resources. This isn’t an uncommon occurrence and the school needs to have a mental health system in place to address it outside of the classroom whether that’s an area crisis team, sending the student to the hospital like they would if they broke a leg at school, or some other general procedure.

      One thing that your husband can do is try to reconnect the boundaries and acknowledge that sometimes he doesn’t know what to say to her but that he hears her pain. Ongoing suicidal ideation is something that needs to be dealt with professionally and your husband could tell her that. Acknowledge that it’s hard to tell new people the truth but that it’s a way to receive the support she deserves.

      1. Desperate for help (TW: suicide)*

        The school did send her to a hospital the day my spouse got the razor from her backpack. But she was released later that night! It’s a new school so I’m not sure they’ve had to deal with this yet and even know themselves what procedure to take to properly handle it.

        Part of my spouse’s issue is how to extricate himself without further hurting the student. She thinks he’s the only person who cares about her, and the few times he’s tried to push back the amount she sees him (by saying he was busy after school), she got upset and accused him of being angry at her. He’d rather she feels like she has someone who she can talk to than no one at all!

        1. Sunshine Brite*

          It makes me think of a few of my clients… I’m a social worker btw. Keeping people in a relationship through anger is creating bad patterns for unhealthy future interactions too. By being sucked into this, he’s unconsciously reinforcing that this is the way to get her needs met while simultaneously being able to stay sick without seeking recovery.

    3. strawberries and raspberries*

      Not a teacher, but a social worker, and had to help my fiance (whose YouTube channel attracted a huge adolescent audience) deal with a very similar thing a couple years ago. Your spouse should not try to do any kind of mental health counseling with the student that he’s not qualified for (and it’s great that he’s continuing to maintain appropriate boundaries). I coached my fiance to tell the girl in his case (who, granted, may or may not have been as much of a dynamic risk as this student) that he appreciated her sharing her feelings with him and how scary they must be, but that he wasn’t the person who would be able to give her the best help. He shared a number of suicide hotlines with her and stressed that these numbers are staffed by trained professionals who keep everything she says completely confidential, so her mom or her friends or whoever wouldn’t have to know.

      If your school district has a free Mental Health First Aid training, I would highly recommend that your husband take that course. It really goes into appropriate and sensitive language to use with someone who is suicidal, having a psychotic episode, or suffering from depression or abuse before referring to qualified mental health services. And also, it’s important for him to know that if the girl does attempt to take her life, it is not because of anything he did or didn’t do or say. It’s too much for one person to assume that responsibility. I’m sorry that his school is being so shitty about this.

      1. Desperate for help (TW: suicide)*

        Such a stressful situation!

        Spouse has told her numerous times that she needs to talk to her psychiatrist/any of the other professionals trained to deal with this, but she refuses! I guess she only feels comfortable talking to him? Do you have a script suggestion for convincing her to speak with a professional that won’t come across to her as him abandoning her? The few times he’s tried to detach himself she got upset and accused him of being angry at her!

        I’ll have to ask him about that course – it sounds like it could be super helpful for him, and for all the teachers at his school.

        And yes, I worry that if the worst possible happens, he’ll end up blaming himself.

        1. strawberries and raspberries*

          Has he ever asked her why she’s unwilling to speak to any of the psychiatrists or therapists?

          If it were me, I would probably say something like, “Student, I want you to know that I really appreciate you sharing your suicidal feelings with me, and I know it’s taken a lot for you to feel comfortable talking about this. You have a team of people who are all able to support you in different ways, and I want you to be able to use all of them. I can listen, but the psychiatrist/social worker/therapist have years of training and experience that I don’t, and they can support you a lot better in giving you helpful tools to process your feelings.” And I would keep reiterating that- “Your feelings are real, I’m here for you, and so are these trained professionals.” If he tries to convince her that he’s not angry at her, it’s only going to intensify her attachment to him and garble the core message, which is that he wants her to get the help she needs.

    4. AlmostAcademic*

      That’s such a hard position for anyone to be in, so kudos to him for handling it so well so far – especially asking about and removing means. It sounds like his school has been really bad at supporting him, which is awful (and somewhat unsurprising given the state of suicide training these days). It sounds like he’s doing everything right so far and to the best of his abilities, so major kudos for that. Really, the “wrong” thing to say is to be completely dismissive of his student’s issues, and you can never go wrong with empathizing in general. Here are some thoughts on where to try going from here (I’ve worked as a crisis counselor in the past, and I’m currently working on research projects surrounding suicide, but it’s important to note here that I’m NOT a qualified psychologist yet).

      1. Boundaries are completely healthy and acceptable- the key for this type of situation is to make sure that he’s not overstepping his training, and also that he’s not leaving her with no resources. Ideally, these boundaries are constructed in a way that doesn’t completely shut down communication or stigmatize the suicidal person, but still works for his needs. So, he might take some time to reflect on what he’s comfortable with and go from there. In talking to her, have him emphasize that he wants her to feel safe and like she can reach out when she’s struggling (and give her some resources) but that he’s also not an expert and some things he just doesn’t feel like he can give advice on – and in those cases, reaching out to someone professional who she’s comfortable with can be the most helpful way to go. It’s also helpful to normalize help-seeking, that other people who have felt this way have made it through by getting support from professionals. Have him talk about what he can and can’t do clearly – sometimes it can be helpful to phrase it along the lines of “I want you to be safe, but I also am not always available for matters outside of work. Here are some resources that have been particularly helpful to friends in the past that have been going through similar situations, if you’re open to them…” Since she trusts him, and already is reluctant to talk to the professionals in her life, it might be helpful to steer the conversation towards what is keeping her from discussing her suicidal thoughts with the appropriate people, or encouraging her to have those conversations herself with her psychiatrist / social worker / etc. Basically, emphasizing that those people can help, but only with her cooperation, while also validating that it can be scary to open up to new people. Especially for kids, they sometimes don’t realize that they can take a really active role in their treatment and it can start with discussing their fears and reluctance to participate with their therapist. Also, emphasize if possible that if she hates her therapist, she can talk about it with them or her parents or someone and see if she can switch. Basically, reinforcing that he is worried about her and wants to make sure she has people she can reach out to for help, and giving her options (crisis lines, therapists, etc.) is really helpful as he extricates himself from being her rock.

      2. It also might be worth asking if she talks to her therapist about his suicidal thoughts and if they’ve made a safety plan (steps for her to take if she’s feeling suicide, unsafe, lists of distractions, etc.) If not, definitely encourage her to sit down with her psychiatrist and do so, or reach out to a crisis line and develop one with them. They’re the expert, and will be able to help her get through this tough time the best.

      3. If he has serious concerns about her imminent safety, call someone (but let her know that you’re going to and talk about it, it really sucks to have people show up on your door unexpected) – it sounds like he’s done this already in the past, and he should be prepared to get others involved again as necessary.

      4. Remember that he is not responsible for her happiness and health. The important thing is that she’s the one who has to be taking the steps – your husband is not responsible for what she does / does not do.

      Some resources that can be helpful to pass on, if she needs support outside of her therapy sessions or wants to talk and others are not available:

      National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (1-800-273-8255) https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/talk-to-someone-now/ They offer both support over the phone or via chat for people stressed, struggling, suicidal, everything really. Even if you want to call and are just looking for some expert advice, they totally do that as well. They talk to people about a ton of different subjects, not just suicide- things like depression, stress, anxiety, relationships, etc. are all fair game to call about.

      Crisis Text Line – support available from trained counselors via texting, free, 24/7. Text TALK to 741741. Really great at working with teenagers as well.

      IMAlive.org – crisis chats online, in IM form.

      Also, on the school side, if his administration / social worker isn’t familiar with “Suicide in Schools by Erbacher, Singer, & Poland, it’s probably worth bringing to their attention. It’s probably the best book and guide out there to dealing with suicidality in a school setting, and is written by some truly excellent people. Your husband might find it helpful to page through as well, even though it’s really geared towards school counselors and social workers.

    5. it's all good*

      I can’t offer guidance, but please tell him to not give up going to his admin and the parents. A long time ago my friend was in the same situation, but in middle school. Sadly the student was successful. It was very hard for her, as expected. I hope things change for the better for both your husband and the student.

    6. School Psych*

      I’m a school-based mental-health professional. I second the recommendation that your school should develop some official policies around risk assessment, helping students to re-integrate to school after hospitalization and training staff in mental-health 1st aid. I also think it’s perfectly okay for your husband to set some boundaries with this student. We have a few frequent flyer students in my building, who seek out counseling services every day, sometimes multiple times per day. We have a meeting with these students and explain that we care for them and are here to support them, but also work with many other students who need our support. It isn’t good for them to miss so much instruction and they need to try and use some coping strategies besides seeking out an adult. We work out with these students a fixed number of passes per week that they can come to our office and gradually reduce that number. Of course if it’s an emergency we will see them, even if they have run out of passes. I think your husband should try to give this student attention and support in other ways(checking in with her more during class about her work, offering tutoring, offering resources she can use for mental health, helping her to make more connections with peers.) He can also gradually limit the amount he is available to her outside of class using a script similar to the one our mental health staff uses. While this is a mental health issue, I think it is also an attention issue. This student doesn’t have another peer or adult she’s connected with, so she uses your husband as her main source of support. Maybe the social-worker can put her into a therapy group at school with students with similar issues? She might also be more willing to see the social-worker, if you walk down to the office with her and do an introduction. We have teachers in my building come down with students they are concerned about all the time and it helps make the process less scary for them. School-based services look a little different than outside services do. It’s often more education about the symptoms of your disorder and how to manage them versus a lot of in depth talk-therapy about feelings. Students often like meeting with someone at school because it’s shorter and more interactive and the strategies are directly related to helping them get through the day. Maybe hearing more about what school-services would look like from the social-worker would help change her mind? We also contract with students to try a certain number of individual or group sessions to see if it’s helpful to them. Sometimes it’s easier to make a smaller commitment than to sign on for seeing a counselor every week.

    7. ..Kat..*

      Can he talk with the school social worker or her psychiatrist and ask what is the best thing for him to do?

      What about calling EAP and talking with a therapist for him about what to do?

  92. Abbey UK*

    Does anyone else feel weird taking time off if they’re not “doing” anything in particular? For a bit of context, me and my bf currently work at the same company (I’m only on a 12 month contract, and our roles never overlap in any sense), so he drives us to and from work, since I can’t drive yet. He’s been working extremely hard and been feeling burnt out, so he decided to take a week off. Since he drives me, and it’s not exactly fun to go into work while your bf gets to stay home, I took the week off as well. We are in the UK so we get 25 days of paid holiday per year, plus bank holidays, so it’s not a big deal to take this many days so early in the year.
    Since next week is my week off, I let a colleague I collaborate with, but don’t sit near, know, and earlier today she asked me if I was going anywhere nice. When I said no, she seemed surprised, and asked if I was going on any day trips or had any plans. Again, the answer was no! We are saving pretty aggressively to pay off loans/save for a house, so we basically don’t do anything or go anywhere (except go to see Black Panther the other day, how amazing was that film?!).
    This ended up being much longer than I wanted – but basically, does anyone else feel awkward about this or is it just me? Do I really have to have something specific I’m doing on every day off, is it really that weird to take time off just to stay home?

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I can’t really afford to travel or do a whole lot during my time off, so I mostly end up chilling at home because I have to use my vacation time (we can only carry so much over, and since they can’t legally take it away – they insist we use it – the nerve! Ha!). People are often surprised that I don’t do a lot during my vacations. Believe me, I’d love to, but I’m on a tight budget and it’s not feasible. I only feel awkward when I feel like I have to explain it!

    2. The Person from the Resume*

      No you do not need to do anything specific. Chilling around your house sounds like a great way for your BF to recover from burn out which is the point of his break.

      It’s a tiny bit uncommon, but certainly not unheard of. When I do something like I usually end up reading a lot so my planning consist of getting a few books from the library, and I also expect to do some chores that I never get around to on the weekend. And I tell myself I’m going to work out or walk or bike every day the weather permits. Nothing exciting. What people call self-care.

    3. k.k*

      It’s totally fine to use your time off however you want, I don’t get why people find it so weird. But they do, and since it’s annoying and awkward to try and justify that in casual conversation, I usually use a little white lie to avoid the subject. “Oh not going anywhere, just have a lot of things around the house to catch up on.” That is usually enough of an answer to satisfy them. And while they assume I’m catching up on home repairs or appointments, I’m catching up on Netflix and naps.

      1. CTT*

        fwiw, I get extremely anxious if I’m not doing something if I’ve taken off multiple days. As much as I do like to sit around and read/watching television/etc., I start to feel anxious after, say, a morning of that.

    5. Mediamaven*

      I think WAY too many people think you have to have a specific vacation plan to take time off. I love a day off just because, and a whole week! Good for him!! It’s nice to have time during the week to get stuff done around the house or whatever. I wish more people would do it.

    6. Susan K*

      Nope! I often use my vacation days to take random days off to have a long weekend, and just enjoy a day of not having to go to work. When people ask me if I’m doing anything or going anywhere, I’ll say, “Nah, it’s more of a staycation,” or “Just using up some vacation days so I don’t lose them.” There’s nothing wrong with using your vacation to relax at home.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, me too. I like to sleep in and then maybe meet a friend for lunch and then work on a project or hobby. It’s not relaxing (to me) to have to use my vacation to pack up and rush off to some expensive destination. Sometimes that’s what I want/need, but other times I just want to drive to see my parents or to do stuff around the house.

    7. Menacia*

      I am hoping to have a *stay*-cation one of these days…I’m kind of sick of having to always go somewhere…just enjoy the time off, relax, read, sleep, binge watch some shows and don’t worry about it! :)

    8. Earthwalker*

      It’s none of your colleague’s business what you do. I be tempted to make up a different story every time I was asked. “Going to Madagascar to bottle feed orphaned lemurs.” “Off to Antarctica to pet penguins!” “Hunting endangered piranhas in the Amazon.” “Training camp for a civilian Mars mission.”

    9. Bow Ties Are Cool*

      Staycations are the best. That said, if you feel weird telling people, “Nope, just staying home!” then tell them something that is also true but that feels more like a plan when you say it.

      “Catching up on my reading!”
      “Binge watching-Netflix, mostly.”
      “Sleeping in and spending quality time with my cat, it’s gonna be great.”
      “I have a new basket-weaving project I’m planning to spend a lot of time on.”
      or:
      “No specific plans, just decompressing and enjoying having some weekdays free.”

    10. Totally Minnie*

      I take a staycation every year. My vacation plans are typically as follows:

      1. Wake up, shower, and put on clean pajamas.
      2. Sit on my couch reading or catching up on movies or TV shows I’ve missed while eating my favorite things.
      3. Repeat.

    11. valc2323*

      I often say “I have a whole list of stuff I want to do around the house! looking forward to getting it taken care of,” if I’m taking a week and mostly hanging around home.

      Sometimes I take just a single day mid-week, and call it a “get-shit-done-day”. Those errands that are outside your normal routine but need to get handled every few months — oil change, trek out to the ‘burbs to specialty shop, routine veterinary or dental appointments, etc. Sometimes it’s easier to take a day and blow through half a dozen errands instead of doing one a day stretched out over a few weeks.

  93. Jess R.*

    How do you get yourself back on track when you’re late to work?

    I overslept this morning — woke up 10 minutes after I was supposed to be at work — and got in 45 minutes late. I’m not worried about my boss thinking less of me because this happens very rarely for me, but it is hard for me to get my head completely in the game when I’m late. I get all my work done, but I feel more frazzled all day long. Any tips for combating this?

  94. Hallie B*

    I have a question about disclosing a relationship to my company, and was hoping you had advice.

    I work for a company that has offices in multiple cities. I am a receptionist who normally works in the King’s Landing office but who worked in our Qarth office for two months over the holidays (I live in Qarth and was covering for a coworker who was on maternity leave). Two days after I had finished my time at the Qarth office I got a Facebook message from a guy who works at the Qarth branch of our company- a guy I’d had a major crush on during my tenure there but had never had many chances to speak with. We went on a date about a week later and really hit it off. Fast forward two months and we are a couple. Woo!

    My question is this– do we need to disclose this relationship to our company? We don’t work in the same office, did not work on the same team (I was a receptionist, so the extent of our contact during my time in Qarth was delivering his mail and assisting with meetings just as I’d do for any other employee), and I am technically employed by the staffing firm that provides admins for our company as opposed to the company itself. I have checked my company manual and there is nothing in the rules that addresses dating employees of the companies we staff (it doesn’t actually mention dating at all). This is more than just a hookup or a fling– we are really happy together and want to continue dating. Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. Trillion*

      Does your company have any written policy on this? In my opinion, if there’s no policy on it and you two remain professional at work (over email or what ever little contact you have at work) it’s no one’s business.

      1. Trillion*

        My apologies, I see you mentioned that there’s no policy on it.

        I think it’s fine, especially since you’re employed by a staffing firm. (Though it may be worth putting some feelers out with your staffing firm if you feel safe enough to do that)

    2. Bea*

      You did the right thing and consulted the employee manual. As long as he’s not in a position of power of your position, it’s nothing that needs to be brought to anyone’s attention in the aspect of “conflict of interest” in my opinion.

  95. Trillion*

    I had my exit interview today. I hate exit interviews.

    Ever since I’ve put in my notice, I’ve been so much more relaxed. The prospect of escaping this place has made everything more tolerable. As a result, I start to feel like all the issues and problems I have are petty. My manager griped at me because I didn’t see an email that was sent at 9pm on Christmas until the next morning? Why did that bother me so much? Why didn’t I just let it roll off my back?

    I’ve started to feel like I didn’t take enough responsibility in managing my own emotions and reactions to my manager’s shouting and unhappiness. I’ve promised myself in my next job, I’m going to take therapy and read up to better develop my confidence and coping skills for these situations.

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I would say – I would be bothered by the griping about Christmas email too. And if your manager is shouting? That’s not unreasonable to be unhappy about too. Definitely do what you need to do to care for yourself, including therapy if you think that would help, but definitely don’t take on the responsibility for this bad management. You still are allowed to be upset about things that are genuinely upsetting – it’s healthy.

  96. Bossless*

    My department of 11 people has had 4 people leave in 2 months. It feels like we’re falling to pieces and leadership isn’t being communicative about replacements (the first departure was my boss and she hasn’t been replaced. Her job was only posted in the last few days). My boss leaving has made doing my job very difficult. Morale among the remaining staff is low. I can’t leave until at least the summer so how do I survive the tumult until then? And how do I stay motivated to keep doing good work?

  97. BW*

    I have a trans friend who was going through the interview process and almost made it through. Unfortunately, when the company informed her that they were going to do a background check, she had to reveal that she was trans. 2 hours later, that company decided not to proceed forward with her. This company is in Northern Virginia. Can they legally do that? How can I support my friend? What are some trans-friendly workplaces you know of?

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I know here, it wouldn’t be legal, but I’m not sure what the laws are in Northern Virginia. That’s awful for your friend. The best you can do is be there for her and be angry with her, because that’s unfair and unacceptable. I don’t know of any trans-friendly organizations (or any organizations!) in that area, but I hope your friend finds a job that makes her happy, challenged and fulfilled. Not that it makes it easier for her, but she dodged a bullet by not getting stuck in a trans-phobic workplace where she wouldn’t have been able to be open about who she is.

    2. Trillion*

      How wretched. The ACLU may be interested in that one.

      My trans friend worked at Apple without issue, but I’ve lost touch with him, and I’m not sure if he’s moved on to other jobs.

    3. Curious Cat*

      Hi, I live in NOVA! Our previous Governor Terry McAuliffe sighed an executive order back in 2014 banning discrimination against state employees based on sexual orientation or gender identity. Definitely have your friend reach out to the ACLU of Virginia.

      The Human Rights Campaign headquarters is located in DC and is incredibly LGBTQ+ friendly!

    4. Natalie*

      Unfortunately, LGBT employees in the private sector aren’t protected in Virginia. (Lambda Legal link in reply)

      I know the EEOC under the previous administration was considering trans discrimination already covered by existing civil rights laws as a form of sex discrimination. But I’m not sure if that has changed in the last 14 months.

  98. MuseumChick*

    Bit of a rant.

    All week I have been thinking about the letter this week where the guy slept through the whole work day but had built up so much good will everyone was really understanding. I’m seeing the opposite at my work place. My co-worker, Fergus is a Not Great employee, very defensive about feedback, lacks good judgement, a bit lazy, and has a real issue with arriving on time. This has caused some issues, only a couple of which I have spoken to him about in the moment (for example, leaving the front desk unattended. We have a cash register up there, the phone has to be answered, visitors can come in etc. His direct manager was not in that day so when I saw he wasn’t at the front desk I waited until he got back, basically told him it was unacceptable to leave it unattended. His response was “Well I was just running int he back to grab some water!” I said “If you need to leave the desk you can call my line or text my cell phone.” He already knew this, had me cover the desk before to run and grab something but just chose not to this time.) I am not in his management chain but am in a higher position than him so unless something is really egregious and his manager isn’t here I try to stay out of it.

    A few months ago he was in a car accident.Lluckily he wasn’t hurt but understandably was shaken and everyone told him to take a few days. The other day we had some bad weather here and Fergus called to say he would not drive in it. We are a small organization (less than 100 people) so it can really throw things when someone calls out suddenly. The issue I’m having in this, we are supposed to get some bad weather this weekend. If Fergus refuses to come in again either myself or my one other co-worker will have to come in. I have a lot of plans this weekend and my co-worker has young children. We live in an area where bad weather is not uncommon. Fergus does not care how him not coming in effects other people.

    If Fergus were a even a good employee, I would way more sympathetic about (possibly) given up my weekend. But he’s not a good employee, and I find myself annoyed at the mere though of given up plans I’ve had because he’s just decided to not come in. I told his direct manager (who I have an excellent relationship with) who is aware of all the issues with Fergus that I will come in if it is needed but that I think there needs to be an serious talk with Fergus that it is unacceptable to not come to work just because of some bad weather.

    I know there is nothing I can do about Fergus. Upper management won’t do anything but I’m still annoyed.

    1. The Person from the Resume*

      I will come in if it is needed

      Why are you martyring yourself to backfill Fergus when you have a lot of plans this weekend? You made plans knowing you were not scheduled to work. If they called in you should just explain that you’re not available. (Before telling Fergus’s manager you would. It’s too late now.)

      You’re annoyance at Fergus is justified, but you shouldn’t have to give up your plans to make it easy for him to avoid his responsibilities. Frankly you and your colleague should both be unavailable so management has to deal with true impact of Fergus’ shirking.

      1. strawberries and raspberries*

        I agree. I have a similar issue with someone on my team who does substandard work and whose personal life is a mess, and who has demonstrated that he’s unable to gracefully separate the two. I want to be flexible and understanding but I will certainly not swoop in to help you if you request a week off to “settle a family issue” but then don’t complete four of the five tasks I assigned you beforehand. Let him struggle a little.

      2. Tardigrade*

        Yeah, I agree with this and AdAgencyChick below. Both Fergus and management will take advantage of the fact that someone else will always cover to keep things running smoothly.

      3. MuseumChick*

        I think part of it is the general culture of museums/non-profits where you tend to do everything you can for the organization. Plus, I would feel so guilty making my co-worker with kids come in.

        Fergus’s direct manager has had conversation with upper management about Fergus but nothing changes.

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          But Fergus is planning on your feeling guilty and covering for him!

          Talk to your coworker. See if you can get her to agree to take a hard line on this. You can also use some version of “I don’t see why Fergus’s unwillingness to drive that day is more important than plans I made weeks ago/finding child care on short notice, when I wasn’t scheduled to work.”

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      You can’t make them get rid of him, but can you refuse to solve the problem? What happens if you and your coworker band together and say you have unbreakable plans for the weekend? (Would Fergus’s manager have to step in?)

      Right now it doesn’t hurt for management not to solve the problem, because you guys will solve it for them by covering. But if management all of a sudden has to work the front lines themselves, or has to shut down the desk for a day because no one was available to man it, then they might think a little harder about solving the problem.

      Yes, you may get some squawking of “why can’t you be a team player and come in?” but a) if they’re not going to fire a crappy employee, they won’t fire a good one; and b) you can say, “I’m more than willing to be an occasional backup for true emergencies, but I’m not always going to be able to say yes, and I don’t think that makes me not a team player.”

      1. Mediamaven*

        Totally agree with this. Sometimes its easier as a manager to ignore conflict, but also easier to do something if other employees complain. I had a very underperforming employee (agency as well BTW) and tried desperately to get her very nice and hardworking peer to tell me that she felt that she felt she wasn’t being supported. I couldn’t squeeze it out of her because she is just too nice. Finally, after the girl quit she admitted she felt as though she was picking up the slack. We told her not to do that again – we need everyone performing and we need to know when that is not happening.

      2. zora*

        Yeah, I came from nonprofits, so I know how hard this is, I really do. But you have to stop solving the problem for Fergus’ manager. That is the ONLY way they will do something about it.

        You and your coworker need to agree between the two of you what your limit is and when you will not be available to cover for Fergus and make management actually have to deal with this problem.

        Do some practicing at distancing yourself and telling yourself you don’t need to feel guilty, this is Fergus’s problem, so I’m giving the problem back to Fergus. It’s hard, but if you don’t do it, you will just keep covering Fergus until you are so angry you will snap or just make yourself miserable.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If the roads are that bad, why does anyone have to be there? That sounds more like an organizational/management problem than a Fergus problem to me.

      1. MuseumChick*

        The roads are not that bad. Everyone else made it to work. When the weather is gets really bad they will let us know to not come into. This was not the case.

  99. Whitewater Rapids*

    What do you think of the following bullet point under a job on a resume?
    -Youngest Director in company history

    To expand on this, one company, four job titles – rapidly promoted, became Director with 10 years of experience rather than the typical 15/20. Quite an accomplishment, but is it a no/no to reference age on a resume?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would use the second point you made– promoted to director after 10 years instead of the typical 15/20– though I don’t know the best way to word it. Don’t make it about your age.

      1. Anonanonanon*

        I agree. Think saying “youngest director” could rub people the wrong way. Having the list of positions at the company and tenure should speak for itself.

        1. Little Bean*

          Agreed. Your accomplishment isn’t that you were young, it’s that you were promoted more rapidly than usual. The same would have been true if you had started at your organization when you were 40, no?

    2. Susan K*

      I don’t think you should reference your age. It’s simply not relevant. Your skills and accomplishments are what matter, whether you’re 32 or 52. Even the fact that you became a director with less experience than most directors might not be a great thing to mention, because that could cause concern that you don’t have enough experience. The fact that you’ve been promoted three times, and all the way to a director position, is sufficient to show your success, but it’s not a race.

    3. EmilyAnn*

      I wouldn’t list that. You want to be evaluated for your skills. You were the youngest director because of your skills, not because of your age. You were on an accelerated path and that should be evident in the length of time you had with the company. You can say something about it typically taking 15-20 years and you did it in 10, but that has nothing to do with your relative age.

  100. beanie beans*

    I got an interesting rejection email today.

    “In reviewing your documentation, it is clear you have extensive background in llama herding. However, it isn’t clear how your background will translate to the requirements of the position. With that, we will not be asking you to interview for this role at this time.

    If you feel that we’ve misinterpreted your intent, please feel free to follow up or submit new documentation for our review.”

    Clearly I need to work on my cover letter and resume a bit more. Do you read this as an opening to reply with “But really, I’m qualified! Let me explain!” Or is it just a polite way of saying “Sorry, we’re not interested. Work on your cover letter.”

    For what it’s worth, I didn’t have all of the the qualifications, and since I’m trying to transition to a totally different job field, I’m having to make some stretches in how my experience qualifies me for a position.

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      You could add to the documentation if it’s something your really want, or I’d probably just use it as advice to work on your cover letter.

      Also, I want to learn more about llama herding now.

    2. Murphy*

      I see it as a “sorry, we’re not interested.” Very nice of them to tell you why though! You rarely see that.

      I’m assuming the position you were applying for was not in llama herding? If that’s the case then yeah, I’d just work on your cover letter in terms of transferring your previous experience to your desired field.

      1. Anonanonanon*

        Honestly, I don’t even think working on the cover letter would help in this instance. Since you don’t have all the qualifications they asked for, it sounds like they are telling you that those qualifications are a deal breaker for this position.

    3. Red Reader*

      I read that as “If you can give us a lot more information about how your extensive llama herding background will qualify you for our (llama grooming) position, we’ll certainly entertain it, but we’re not quite seeing it based on what you’ve already provided.” I mean, they didn’t have to include the last sentence about “please feel free to follow up or submit new documentation,” but they did, so it at least isn’t a blatant “buzz off” and they did invite you to follow up, so.

    4. beanie beans*

      Thanks for the feedback, yep the position was not in llama herding, but I had hoped they would see it as somewhat related.

      I think I’m taking it a bit personally, reading something negative into the email. “I can see that you have a lot of experience in this other thing, but I can’t imagine why you think that qualifies you for this job.” (Maybe that’s not what they’re saying. Or maybe that IS what they’re saying, and I should just brush it off and learn from it for future job applications).

      1. Frank Doyle*

        I agree with Red Reader. I also think that it’s less “I can’t imagine why you think that qualifies you for this job” and more “*we* don’t think it qualifies you for this job.” They know better, because they know the job. That doesn’t make you an idiot for trying, but it isn’t going to work for them.

      2. Anonanonanon*

        I recently did a transition from one field to a tangentially related one. Some places I applied saw my past experience as relevant while others really did not. The best thing you can do is move on to the next one. Some places are very rigid in what they consider relevant experience.

      4. The New Wanderer*

        I’ve been applying to jobs where I believe my skills in area A are very relevant and transferable to area B. I’ve been getting better about putting that explicitly in the cover letter (my first couple of attempts were too vague in retrospect). However, it’s still only gotten me an interview at one company, despite applying to a bunch of other companies posting the same role/same job description. I found out through a recruiter that my skills were dead on, but my lack of experience in the B industry was the deal breaker (not listed in the job requirements, of course). Sometimes you just don’t know.

        All that to say, it’s not personal or a veiled criticism of you attempting to switch tracks. If they can find enough candidates with exact matching skills, they won’t bother with transferable skill candidates. A few companies will, it just takes a while to find them.

    1. Avalanche Lake*

      There’s something funny about you choosing the name Sydney Bristow and being fascinated by this story, since Sydney…also did what this employee did.

      I too wish we had more of the story!

    2. valentine*

      I really feel for Michelle and hope she’s somewhere less uptight. She obviously needed the makeovers and her efficiency was admirable.

  102. Tableau Wizard*

    I’m really struggling with how to give notice. Any tips on where to start?

    I’ve got a pretty good reason for why I’m leaving – my husband got a job in my hometown and we’re moving back to be closer to family. But, I still have no idea how to have this conversation. Especially because the job has been so bad lately that I would’ve probably wanted to leave anyway. How honest should I be about that specifically?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You don’t need to say anything specific at all. “We’re moving back to my hometown, so I’ll be resigning. X will be my last day.” If the job’s really that bad, they might be relieved. But really, keep it short and sweet, focus on the logistics. If you want to reveal more, an exit interview is the time to do that.

      1. Tableau Wizard*

        I guess that’s part of the problem. I know they won’t be relieved. I’ll be leaving a pretty big hole on a small team. They’ve been actively trying to keep me around by recognizing me and being very flexible when I’m burning out and more.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          That is Not Your Problem. Repeat that many times over. It’s really not. You’re moving! They could be the nicest people in the whole world and super sad when you go, but that’s still Not Your Problem.

    2. Murphy*

      Much as you may want to take this opportunity to tell them how bad the job has been, there’s really nothing to gain there. So I’d just be straightforward about the move. Plus the move makes it a moot point. It’s not like they can make the job better and you’ll stay.

  103. Xarcady*

    Kind of an odd question, but I don’t know what to do.

    Background–I’ve been temping, at the same company but in a variety of positions, for about 2.5 years. I’ve spent the last year in the same position. Recently, they moved me out of the windowless, shared temp room and in to a cubicle of my own, with a lovely, huge window. I’m sitting right next to my immediate supervisor. I have no idea why they did this.

    Immediate supervisor mentioned that my cube looked bare. His supervisor (Boss) stopped by and mentioned that now I had a space I could decorate. Her supervisor (BigBoss) has also commented to me that I should decorate the cubicle.

    But I’m a temp! I could get a phone call tonight telling me not to show up on Monday. I doubt that will happen, but still–temps don’t “decorate” their spaces. However, it is pretty clear throughout the company that offices and cubicles have a lot of personal items, photos, kids’ drawings, even small tables and cabinets and mini-fridges.

    So, what would you bring in, that you could easily take with you when you leave? I’m thinking a mug and a water bottle and a calendar. Which is still going to leave the cubicle looking pretty bare. I don’t have kids or pets, so nothing to bring in pictures of.

    I cannot believe I’m stressing about this, but the comments have seemed so pointed it’s freaking me out. I’m a temp, for heaven’s sake!

    1. Colette*

      Can you hang up work-related papers? What about pictures you print off onto regular printer paper, so you don’t have to take them with you when you leave? (Scenery, not people.)

      A few colourful touches will likely go a long way to changing the perception that you haven’t decorated.

    2. Curious Cat*

      I definitely think decorate with what can easily be brought home in one go! A cute calendar sounds great, as well as a mug & water bottle. If you think pictures will add a personal touch, maybe a few pics of great times with friends? If your office gets cold, I think even having a blanket scarf or sweater draped over the back of your chair can help a space feel more “lived in”

    3. Curious Cat*

      I definitely think the calendar/mug/water bottle ideas are great! Even though you don’t have children/pets, maybe you could bring in some pictures of great times/memories/vacations with friends? If your office is cold, I think even having a blanket scarf or sweater draped over the back of your chair can add a more “lived in” feel.

    4. ContentWrangler*

      Can you put up a whiteboard for notes or add some colorful post-its? Still work related but help fill up empty cubicle space.

      1. Anonanonanon*

        I have a calendar, white board and some colorful pushpins. It is enough to make my space a little different than the surrounding desks, but all work related and small.

    5. Alex*

      I’m not a temp, but I refuse to decorate my cubicle. I have some scenic wallpapers on my desktop computer, but that’s it. In fitting with my generally aloof demeanor, I don’t see the need to personalize my workspace. I don’t care about my coworkers personal lives and I don’t want them to know about mine. I like the idea of putting up innocuous pictures of landscapes or animals or whatever if you feel pressure to put up something.

    6. KR*

      Can you get some work related pictures? So I work in solar so we have pictures of our solar fields up everywhere and my desktop background is one of our prettier sites. Also, I have screenshots of tweets, memes, printed out quotes I like, ect taped to my filing cabinet (I don’t have a cube). Could you get a dollar store base with some fake flowers or something so you aren’t mad if you can’t get it back? Also if they’re giving you a cube maybe it means they want to hire you in the future! This might be worth a conversation. “Fergus you’ve been making comments about my cube looking bare, but I’m hesitant to decorate considering I’m a temp worker. Can you give me a sense of how long I’ll be in this cube or in this position so I don’t decorate and have to take it all down again?”

    7. Xarcady*

      Thanks for all the helpful ideas. I can find something to print out and pin up. And a friend ( a former temp turned permanent employee) is loaning me a plant. If I suddenly loose this position, she can easily retrieve it.

      It’s just so frustrating. I would like to get hired as permanent employee here, so I feel I have to do something about the cubicle walls, but I hate the pressure. It’s such a fine line temps have to walk.

    8. Totally Minnie*

      Next time you’re out shopping, see if there are any fun looking pictures or posters in the bargain bin. Target tends to have some cute decorations in their $5 and under section, so you could get something to brighten up your workspace that you wouldn’t necessarily miss if you didn’t end up bringing it home when this job ends.

  104. Aleta*

    TIL about printer toner scans! I’m a new receptionist, and one day a company called me up saying “hey, we supply your printer toner, because of a price change notification mix up we’re going to be giving you the toner at the old price, can you confirm these details?” and gave our address etc etc. I had no reason to disbelieve them – legitimate suppliers of ours had called me up similarly – so I was like yeah sure. It came a few weeks later, I put it back by the printer. Today I get ANOTHER toner from a different company I’ve never spoken to that I guess posed as this other company since I did field a few calls about it?? And looked it up online and yup it’s a thing.

    I called both, told the one I got today that I had never ordered it, and the other that I had been misled about our companies’ relationship (namely, that we had one at all), and both gave me a return label without question, so I guess everything’s fine and ~now I know~. So you can look out for it, the deal is they ask you for what type of printer you have. For us it was under the guise of confirmation, ie “please give us the model number of the printer nearest you to cross-reference with your account” or something, it was last month, I don’t remember exactly.

    1. Aleta*

      It’s actually publicly available knowledge that my company has had a lot of temp receptionists lately (I’m going permanent on Monday, but they had trouble filling it because they needed an introvert with phone skills and that’s apparently in very short supply around here), and I’m wondering if they target that. Cause like the whole thing was predicated on me not actually knowing who the real supplier is, which you won’t get with a long term receptionist.

    2. Natalie*

      Fun fact if this ever happens in the future! Per FTC regulations, items that you did not order are considered gifts and you are not required to pay for them or return them.

    3. As Close As Breakfast*

      Oh man, this has happened to us multiple times. Every time we have a new receptionist/front desk/phone answering person, they eventually get one of these calls and get duped. So you’re not alone! I think the first time it happened, it wasn’t figured out until we got a bill. We have a company that ‘services’ our copier, we pay a per sheet fee, and service and consumables are free. Everyone learns from their experience to immediately ask what the name of the company calling is, and if it’s not the name of our service company, to basically say ‘no thanks’ and hang up. It’s super weird that this is a thing!

  105. MsChanandlerBong*

    Nonprofit folks: Any favorite resources for learning about the nonprofit world in general/specific topics (grant writing, marketing for nonprofits, volunteer management, board development, etc.)? I like my job, but the thing that really makes my heart sing is helping other people. At some point, I would like to start a nonprofit org, but I realize that I need to take courses, read as much as I can about the field, etc. before I’m even remotely ready to do it. I looked on Lynda but didn’t see much related to nonprofit management (I also prefer books/articles to videos, as I am hard of hearing and also learn much better by reading than I do listening or watching).

    1. JobinPolitics*

      MsChanandlerBong, have you tried GrantSpace or the Foundation Center (public libraries often have free access) or the national Association of Fundraising Professionals (AFP)?

      There are also websites such as Nonprofit for Good and Kivi Leroux Miller’s website Nonprofit Marketing Guide, among others. Your local library might also have some NOLO books available about setting up a nonprofit and applying for grant funding.

      I hope this helps!

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Thank you so much! I’ll see if my library has access. I’ve done a little fundraising work (working on a university’s annual fund campaign, planning fundraising galas, etc.), but I know I do not currently have the knowledge/skills to get where I eventually want to be, so these resources will be a big help.

      2. zora*

        The NOLO books are good.

        In my area there is a state college that offers a whole Nonprofit degree program. But you don’t need to seek the degree to take a couple of classes. And most of their classes are designed for full-time workers, so they are like 1 full weekend, or evenings, etc. Can you look at the colleges/community colleges near you to see if anyone has some classes on nonprofit management?

        There is also an organization in SF called CompassPoint that offers all kinds of classes and trainings for nonprofit workers that anyone can take. Can you look near you for a similar organization or center that provides support to nonprofits. There are lots of them around the country.

        I know there are some places that offer distance learning classes, but it sounds like online courses might not work as well for you.

    3. An Archivist*

      IUPUI has a variety of in-person and online certificate and degree programs in the Lilly Family School of Philanthropy. I work with faculty there and teach occasionally as affiliate faculty. (Yes, I’m a very specialized archivist!)

  106. ADA Accommodation*

    How can people with chronic illness work? I have chronic illness but can function at 80%, especially with job flexibility and work from home capability. But an incredibly bright friend (an actual rocket scientist) can only work 10-15%. She wants to work, desperately, and gets sent perfect job listings, but knows she’s can’t work full time. Any ideas on how to make this work? Can she take the interview and then ask for an ADA accommodation of part time work, flexible hours, and work from home? Other ideas?

    1. Colette*

      My guess would be that networking will be her friend. If she applies for a full time job but says she can only work 4 hours a week, that’s not going to end well. It’s not a reasonable accommodation. But there may be places that would love to have her on a part-time basis, and networking will help her find out if they exist.

      I’d also suggest that she target large organizations, because they are usually more used to employing people with disabilities.

      But the fact of the matter is that she may not be able to work a traditional job. Is freelancing an option for her?

    2. fposte*

      The problem is that ADA accommodation doesn’t mean accepting part-time work for a full-time job (or, necessarily, any of the others, but that’s the big one); I don’t think she can make those perfect job listings into the jobs she can do. I agree with Colette and Tardigrade on networking and freelancing; I also think if she develops a network that means she has an in at the place with a posting, that sometimes leaves room for asking about part-time possibilities that wouldn’t be a reasonable question out of the blue.

  107. StarHunter*

    Reviewing resumes from our last job posting. Got my morning chuckle when I came across a resume where the applicant referred to himself in the third person in his job objective. Looks like it was copied and pasted from a promotional flyer or a LinkedIn profile. It was from someone with many years of experience so I can’t blame it on being a recent grad. Happy Friday! :-)

    1. Irene Adler*

      Does the applicant have the skill set you are looking for?
      Please don’t discard applicants solely because of one little oddity like that.
      It’s tough enough job hunting, putting yourself out there for folks to judge you-what you say, what you write, what you know or don’t know, what you wear, how you speak- it never lets up. Folks are going to have some not so perfect things on the resume. And they turn out to be fantastic hires!

  108. selina kyle*

    So I’ve been at my job for about eight months and really enjoy a lot of aspects of it. There are some frustrations and dealing with things I don’t enjoy (but I know that’d be true anywhere!) but for the most part it’s good. The benefits are great and the pay is…fine? It’s not amazing but it’s enough for me to live on comfortably.
    The issue is a company in a field I’m interested in (archaeology) has posted a job that seems perfect for me. The requirements suit what I’ve been doing here/what I’ve done in the past. I don’t know what the pay/benefits would be like, but I’m sort of interested.
    I feel a bit bad because the busy season for my job (I work in higher ed and graduation is looming overhead) is coming up, but I have most elements of what I need for that lined up and set up, so if I left it would put them in a bit of a lurch but not totally helpless/out of luck.
    Is it awful to apply somewhere that soon (for what it’s worth I’m only a couple years out of college) after starting this job? Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

  109. Avalanche Lake*

    I’m thinking of applying for a different position in my department. This would be outside my current team (so a new manager). It would be a promotion and a chance to do work I’d really like to do that I can’t do in my current role.

    I want to reach out to the hiring manager to have an informal conversation about it. Should I discuss it with my own manager first? I think she would be disappointed but supportive. I have a one-on-one with her today, but then she’s going out for 1.5 weeks so it’s either tell her today and then reach out to the hiring manager, or reach out to the hiring manager and wait to tell her once I figure out if I’m really going to apply. (I have to tell her before I reply–she’ll get an alert from our internal systems.)

  110. Therapy Inquiry*

    I’ve been in a new role for about 3 months now. My sick leave is accumulating and I have been waiting for it to build up to consider taking off weekly for a therapist appointment. I stopped because I had no insurance, but now I have insurance! However, my boss already is strict on using time off (and I have not taken one except one personal leave day—we get 3 personal leave days upon hire—for moving stuff.) and although we are non-exempt and do overtime, she does not allow us to get paid for that (we have to fib on the timesheet.) I am afraid how it may look if I ask her for 1-2 hr of sick leave per week (every Tuesday) for recurrent therapy appointments for my anxiety disorder/previous brain injury. Is it too early to be able to do therapy appointments like this? Should I wait until I’m in for 6 months before asking for weekly medical leave for therapy? I would try to schedule it as late as possible with the therapists schedule so I could still get work done on those days.

    1. WellRed*

      Wait, you work unpaid overtime? And lie on your timesheets? Start looking for a new job asap and make plans to report her illegal activity.

    2. Avalanche Lake*

      I agree with Well Red. But, for as long as you stay in this job, I think it’s very reasonable to ask for this time. Don’t put your mental health (which is as important as your physical health) aside just because you’re worried about asking.

      1. zora*

        I agree you should start the appointments asap, not wait for 6 months.

        But also, you do NOT need to tell your boss what the appointments are for!! You would say “I need to leave at X:00 every Tuesday for a medical appointment. I can make up that time by [coming in early/on another day/ whatever works for you].” This IS a medical appointment, and any decent workplace would be able to deal with an hour a week for medical appointments. Please do what you need to do to take care of yourself!!

        1. Therapy Inquiries*

          Thank you all! I feel better/more confident about asking. This is my first job post-college so I wasn’t really sure what would be ok, and after reading this blog, wasn’t sure if it would be a faux pas to ask for weekly medical appointments 3 months into the job! As far as the timesheets, yeah… I’m realizing that isn’t normal behavior. It’s just normal in our department! See my comments upthread but I will try to muster up the courage to speak to HR. Maybe my boss. But she’s a bit scary.

          1. zora*

            Yeah, the timesheets really worries me because it’s actually illegal on top of not being fair to you a all.

            But honestly, as someone who has my own mental health problems, if you can only concentrate on one thing at a time, focus on your therapy appointments, and taking care of yourself first. Then, if you feel up to it later on you can try to tackle the overtime issues.

  111. Shanice M.*

    Hi everyone, I’m a long time lurker.

    I have managed to get to the final interview stage (for the first time ever) and I’m freaking out. I have managed to impress the manager but I’m seeing the head of Operations next Tuesday. I have prepared loads of examples where I’ve worked in the STAR format. I have even asked the golden question what sets the good candidates from the excellent ones.

    What can I do to impress the Head of Operations? Are there any questions or things I should bear in mind? Thanks in advance all!

    1. JobinPolitics*

      Shanice M., you are knocking it out of the park!

      Are there any other STAR scenarios you can prepare to have some fresh examples for the Head of Operations? Can you do further research on the company (media coverage, awards, etc.) and show your knowledge when returning for a second interview?

      Good luck! You’re doing all the right things.

    2. Tardigrade*

      You got this! If the “golden question” went over well with the manager, you could ask the Head of Operations as well.

      “Manager said she has seen X and Y from excellent employees. (See, you were paying attention!) What do you think distinguishes the excellent employees from the good ones?”

    3. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      Since you’re interviewing with someone with a higher view, so to speak, of the organization, try to think of things that the HoO would know that others might not. You could ask about how the department you’re applying for’s goals fit in with the rest of the organization, learn about how different parts of the company operate in relation to each other, and where this particular person sees the organization in 5 years (or whatever time frame makes sense).

      IMO, it’s not useful to think in terms of “how do I impress this person.” Think of it that you’re going to be talking with someone with power and authority at the organization, someone whose time might be difficult to get once you have the job. What do you want to learn about them, about what they do, about how this role would interface with theirs? What knowledge do they have that the manager doesn’t, and which would be good for you to know if you dove into this role?

      Good luck!

  112. Curious Cat*

    I have a weird situation. Recently I came back from a week-long conference for my company. At the conference was me, a coworker who is on my broader team but this was the first time we truly worked together (“Jane”), and a temp who was hired to join us (“Sally”). Jane was great to work with, and I value that we were able to work closely for this short period of time so that I could get to know her better. She and I have a lot of the same sorts of ideas and work ethic, and I was able to learn a great deal from her at the conference.

    The temp, Sally, was less great to work with. She would take personal calls while we were working, play on her phone, and chat-chat-chat away about anything under the sun (a lot of talking about how she both loves and hates men, sexual assault, and her life outside work). Sally also started to call Jane and I “mother and daughter.” I was so deeply uncomfortable with this, and I could tell Jane was, too. Jane is only about 15 years older than me, so it wasn’t even like we have a massive age gap. Jane half-jokingly said at one point to get Sally to stop, “Well I would have had to been 15 to be Curious Cat’s mother, so that’s definitely not possible.” Sally called us mother/daughter for everything we were doing. One day we both showed up in blue, so we were mother/daughter. We had the same thought process on how to proceed with a dilemma we were facing, so she called us mother/daughter.

    I definitely could have done a better job of shutting. it. down. but I really didn’t know what to say so I would just give her a look each time she said something and move on. The conference is over and Jane and I are on fine terms, but is there anything I can do? Can I report the temp to her temp agency for her terrible behavior on-the-job (even beyond the mother/daughter thing)? Is it just time to brush it off and keep on with life? I kind of just want people to commiserate in how uncomfortable that is, and it’s been a week now, but it’s still bothering me.

    1. ContentWrangler*

      Maybe just tell your boss you had a less than positive experience and weren’t impressed with the temp’s work ethic so your company shouldn’t hire that temp again.

    2. Xarcady*

      A lot of temp agencies follow up with clients about the temps. So do talk to your boss and see if the temp agency has sent a survey/questionnaire over. Or if in your company HR handles hiring temps, I’d let someone in HR know that Sally wasn’t the best temp for that job–give specifics.

  113. Finally a Fed*

    A quick update on my situation that I’ve been posting about the last couple months. The quick background is that after two years of trying to get hired as a fed into the agency I’ve been a contractor at for 10 years, it finally happened, only to discover my husband’s new job is a massive conflict of interest and is significantly limiting my ability to do my current role (and likely future roles). Because our work areas overlap so much, we realized that we either need to both be in industry or both in gov to avoid the COI problem. His company reacted quickly to the issue, within two weeks they had opened a req, conducted a phone interview and scheduled an in person interview (which I’ll travel to next week). We found out this week that my husband can be quickly hired back into his old agency because he has been gone less than a year (no job req required).

    I know that this is lucky problem to have – we both have solid job options that will resolve the existing COI, but I AM SO STRESSED OUT. Both scenarios have pros and cons, and both will require one of us to leave a job we just got and burn a major bridge. I’m so worried about making the wrong choice and having one of us stuck in a job we hate :/. We are going to wait until after my interview next week with his company to make a decision, but I just don’t know we are going to do that unless his company makes an offer we can’t refuse. But me going to his company has the most uncertainty (we both are quite familiar with what our gov agencies will look like long term) and I hate uncertainty with a passion.

    Ugh, what would you AAMers do??

    1. valentine*

      I recall it took you a long time to get into gov, you’re enormously proud of it, and you have great advancement opportunities, so letting your husband get rehired at his old place seems like a quick win/win. (Ideally, your place would make amends for causing this by refusing to answer your simple question.)

      1. Finally a Fed*

        Thanks, valentine. This is all true and a good reminder of the positives of my job. FWIW, husband was also very proud of the work he did at his agency and like the work itself (his management was the problem that eventually caused him to leave). We would both certainly be moving away from the influence/authority we have in our field by going to industry and we definitely get a lot of satisfaction out of that part of the job. I think we are leaning this way, but he wants to give his current company a fair shot to impress met/change my mind, which I’m ok doing for him.

  114. Over Analyst*

    My work is going to pay for me to go to grad school and get my master’s, which is great. Not so great: I need to now apply to schools.
    Does anyone have any experience applying to grad school 6 years after graduating? I need letters of recommendation and was planning on using coworkers (my current and former boss for example) but wasn’t sure if I’m “supposed to” have a professor, even this far out? I wasn’t particularly close to any while in school and don’t think I could get a good letter from one, especially 6+ years after having them, but I’m not sure if it’s something I’m supposed to get?

    1. Irene Adler*

      The further out you are from school, the less likely grad schools are to expect letters of recommendation to be from your profs. It would be okay to get these from bosses who know you and your work. Just make it clear -somewhere in the application -that you have acquired 6 years of job experience. That counts as acquired knowledge.

      1. Weddings & work*

        Actually, my experience is that grad schools DO expect work from your profs; they’re more interested in you as a student/academic than as a worker. I was accepted into two grad programs this year after unsuccessfully applying last year, and I think part of the reason I was successful is that my recs were all from profs at my last institution. My first year, I used a coworker, and that went nowhere.

        That said, I don’t think six years needs to be a concern for you! My last degree was 7 years ago, and my profs were happy to write recs for me. Reach back out to the professors whose classes you performed the best in, describe what you’re doing for them, and ask for a rec. They may ask for some evidence of the work that you did for them (e.g. a paper or project to jog their memories), so I’d encourage you to find one.

        If it’s going to be really hard for you to get recs, one thing to consider is that you could take a couple courses towards your program online, then use those profs as a rec for your degree. I did a little bit of this as well.

        Good luck!

        1. VelociraptorAttack*

          I encountered this as well. I work for the university that I’m doing my grad program through so I was able to ask more questions than most applicants and I was told that even though I graduated from college 7 years ago, having one academic recommendation letter was needed.

    2. Judy (since 2010)*

      In my experience, at least for engineering master’s, if you had reasonably good grades in undergrad, getting into grad school is not that hard. The real fight is for funding, which you already have wrapped up.

  116. envirolady*

    Hi all — I currently have a few non-visible tattoos that don’t impact me at work in any way. I work in a creative field where tattoos aren’t a problem, and I’m thinking of getting a visible tattoo (on my arm) and I want to let my manager know. Have any of you ever done this, and if so, how? I just don’t want to surprise her one day because she is a great manager and I feel like it could seem weird. Thanks in advance!

    1. Murphy*

      If it isn’t a problem where you work, I’m not sure why you’d have to tell your manager.

      1. envirolady*

        It is and isn’t. I’m not client facing, but I work in marketing in a fairly conservative industry. While others at work in different departments are more casual or show off their tattoos/hair color/piercings/etc. more than us, I just wanted to make sure my manager didn’t have any concerns.

    2. Trillion*

      You could frame it in a conversational manner. “Hey, want to see the sketch of the tattoo I’m getting this weekend? What do you think?”

      1. envirolady*

        Good idea! She herself has no tattoos, but I think she would get a kick out of this. Thanks :)

    3. Curious Cat*

      Is it something you could mention casually without having a formal sit-down? Like if someone asks what you’re doing this weekend and you say “Oh, I’m actually getting a new tattoo this weekend.” or something similar?

      1. envirolady*

        Good idea. I don’t want to make it into a big deal, but I also don’t want to blindside her completely. Thanks!

    4. ContentWrangler*

      Do other people at your workplace have visible tattoos? If so, I don’t think you need to mention it to your boss ahead of time. When you come back with the bandage/tattoo, I’m sure she’ll ask about it and you can just tell her about it casually.

      If no one in your workplace has a visible tattoo, you might want to ask you manager beforehand. Frame it like, “It’s my understanding that visible tattoos are fine in this industry, but I wanted to double check that doesn’t have a different opinion.

      1. envirolady*

        Someone higher up that my boss has several small visible tattoos, but none on their arms (they have one on their neck and a few on their legs/feet) so I wanted to bring it up just to make sure it was okay and get her take on it and ask a few questions.

        Great framing, it’s exactly what I was looking for.

    5. Red Reader*

      If it’s within your dress code, I wouldn’t even bother. Wouldn’t seem weird at all.

      Signed, 23 tattoos, the most recent of which I went out and got on my lunch break.

      1. envirolady*

        First of all: rad.

        Second of all: I actually hadn’t even thought about dress code. Ours is pretty undefined/lax, and I’m not client facing so I rarely have to worry… but that is something I need to look into. Thanks for your point of view.

      2. envirolady*

        Ok, double-checked the policy: it doesn’t include the word “tattoo” anywhere. Phew!

    6. NoGhosting*

      I can understand why you want to tell your boss about it. I am in the same situation. I say go for it.

  117. D.W.*

    I’ve been job searching now for a few months, and have not received any interviews, and it’s making me anxious.

    We have had a large number of staff resign (10 employees since last month), and I’m really happy for them, but I feel like I’m getting left behind.

    1. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      I’m sorry to hear that! :(

      At least, if you’re not getting interviews, you can tell a bit about where the issue is… either your application materials have something lurking in them that’s turning hiring managers off, or perhaps you’re applying for jobs that the market doesn’t think you’re qualified for? Even if you don’t know if you’d take them, you might try to apply for a couple jobs that are similar to what you’ve been applying to but a level down, or otherwise close-but-less-desirable for you. If you’re suddenly getting phone calls, it’s at least an indication that there’s nothing inherently wrong with your materials and you can focus on making the connection between your experience and the gigs you really want in different/better ways?

      It’s also a numbers game, I know, but i feel like the labor market is contracting a bit (just based on working in hiring processes where we’ve been getting far fewer applications than I would have expected), so those numbers should be a bit friendlier now than they have been in the past.

      Good luck!!!

  118. KK*

    I’m FREAKING OUT.

    It’s me again, “Woman whose boss got fired at Waffle House”, after he took cuts of our sales reps commission. Anyway…

    HE IS COMING INTO OUR OFFICE TODAY.

    I’m not really sure how he’s even allowed. However, to catch you all up, his new company that he is at (in an unrelated field), has been placing orders with our company pretty regularly for about a month (my company sells janitorial supplies and large cleaning equipment). Well, our company just released a huge new line of equipment. OldBoss caught wind of that, and he’s apparently coming into the office today to “see what we have.” One of our sales reps, X, called and told me that one of our other sales reps, Y, has been in contact with OldBoss, and has even offered to meet him at our office to personally show him all the new equipment (which is beyond me, as this particular sales rep Y is one who was particularly hit hard in the “OldBoss stealing money” thing). It’s going to be so incredibly awkward. OldBoss is the kind of guy who will make a point of coming to each employee’s desk, and catching up with all of us as if it’s not extremely uncomfortable.

      1. KK*

        It was shut down before it even happened! Old Boss’s boss from our corporate office somehow caught wind of it. He contacted Sales Rep Y and told him that Old Boss could not enter the premise of our office. Phew!

  119. Me--Blargh*

    Went to the interview for that job I spoke about last week, the one with marketing and CAD. I was in no way what they wanted; it was a huge waste of time. Plus, the office was a good 40 minutes from my house (not even at rush hour!) and very hard to get to. They said they called me because they liked my resume, but I don’t have marketing or website experience. I did say I wish we could have talked on the phone first. That’s the last time I listen to anyone telling me to “apply anyway–what have you got to looooooooooooose!” against my better judgment. Never again.

    I had scheduled another interview later the same day (hey, why not; I was already dressed up) at a personal injury law firm. The hiring manager was AWESOME, the office was nice, yes it was a stupid receptionist position but it sounded cool–but it only pays $10.50 an hour. They do pay 100% of the health insurance but after taxes, that is not enough to live on. I wouldn’t gain any skills from the job, either. It’s just the same damn admin job I’ve done forever and ever. I did tell her I might be willing to take a pay cut for the right job, but I’m not convinced this is worth it.

    Why is everything so horrendously low-paid? I can’t work two jobs. I just can’t. I’m not physically or mentally able to do that. I have to have something that pays decently because I do not have any other income in my household–it’s all on me. I can’t keep taking money from family and I would still have to if I took this job–it’s just not enough. Back when I was earning this amount, I could make it work, but since then, a lot of things have gotten more expensive. The only thing that hasn’t is my mortgage payment, but a salary this low means I can’t save a dime or spend any money on more training. Good courses and access to style guides, programs (Adobe), etc., and membership in professional organizations (and courses they offer) cost MONEY. I would also have no cushion for emergencies. It’s a huge step back to where I was ten years ago.

    Why am I still here?

    My only hope for any kind of redemption–and that’s a slim to nonexistent hope even if successful–is a damn book nobody wants. *back to revision*

    1. JobinPolitics*

      Me-Blargh, ouch about the low hourly rate!

      Sometimes hiring managers are trying to take the easy way out and interview candidates who don’t need training and may be overqualified. It sounds as though the law firm was going that route. Even with the health insurance coverage, the pay doesn’t sound like enough to exist on without a second job, public assistance, or roommates/family help.

      I know you’ve been looking for a while, so you have my sympathies. Please do continue to search and post on AAM. You’re not alone in hunting for a job worthy of your skills.

      1. Xarcady*

        I’m sorry you are dealing with this.

        I’m both temping and working a part-time retail job. They offered me a full-time retail job and even though I do not like retail, I considered it. But the pay for a “full-time” position at 30 hours a week isn’t enough to live on. There’s no way, even with the company paying for some of the health insurance, that I could make it work. But family and friends are all, “You turned down a full-time job? But why?!?”

        And I’m trying to learn InDesign, so I hear you on the courses/memberships/subscriptions.

        And I so do not want to be working two jobs. I’m tired all the time and have very little time to spend learning new skills or job hunting.

        So all I can offer is hope. Hope that somewhere there is a better paying job that you can do, and do well.

      1. Me--Blargh*

        Everything is subscription-based (Adobe CC, style guides), everything good costs money (Lynda, Coursera classes that are more than just basic overviews, plus you need access to the software), writing and even administrative assistant professional orgs (which often have courses for members). I just can’t do anything more until I have money coming in.

        I am so f*cking sick of being an admin. That’s part of the problem. Because of dyscalculia, I cannot get jobs with lots of Excel work or accounting, which are the better-paid ones. This market is VERY small. Better jobs without those just don’t exist here. I had one, but then it went away–I could not do someone’s budget projections even with accommodation.

        If I’m offered this job, I guess I’ll take it. I probably won’t be, though.

        I just applied for a merit state job with social services (it’s just an office assistant) so who knows. Pay is excellent and aside from some worrying language about expense and payroll, which COULD just be data entry, I might get lucky. I got an email–I made it onto the registry list, but only just (a ranking below 70 for experience and education is disqualifying; my grade is 79).

        Now I have to work on my revision, because I need to be prepared to present pages tomorrow. I have to write a whole new chapter.

  120. Fibrogal*

    I have a question about non-traditional jobs. Since I am in the process of being diagnosed with a physical disability I have been trying to think of work that I might be able to do in the future. It’s looking like I might be suffering from sever fibromyalgia which means that I have chronic pain and fatigue. Even with simple daily tasks I often have to take breaks to rest my body and sometimes have naps.
    So here’s my question, if anyone does have a job that would be flexible enough to work around my disability what kind of work is it and what experience did you need to get the position? Was there any extra schooling needed? What kind of equipment did you need to get the job done?

    1. envirolady*

      Are you a decent writer? Online technical writing / captioning / etc. jobs might be a good fit!

      1. Fibrogal*

        I feel like I’m a decent writer but I don’t have any experience writing professionally. I have no idea how I would even get into that, though I have considered it.

    2. Irene Adler*

      Voice-over work?
      I hear that can net a nice amount of $.

      I haven’t a clue how to get into this. Someone suggested that I look into this because I have the perfect Disney voice. Still not sure that is a complement. It was meant as one.
      I saw some high school teachers in my area were doing this as a side job.

    3. Manders*

      Did you have any work history before your health issues? It might be a good idea to look at what you’ve already done, then see if any of those skills can apply to remote work. For instance: being a remote personal assistant if you’ve got previous admin work, being a marketing consultant or remote worker if you’re already familiar with that field, etc. A word of caution: a lot of gigs advertised as good “side hustle” jobs are only really profitable if you work a ton of hours, or come in with a preexisting skill set, or you’re willing to work for years for a pittance while you build up your client base or audience.

      I’d also recommend looking at freelance sites like UpWork, which will give you a better sense of how in-demand the skills you have are and how much work you’d need to do to make a living wage. Keep in mind that if you’re receiving disability benefits, you’ll need to get very familiar with your local laws about how much you can make without putting your benefits in jeopardy.

      Good luck! Working while disabled is hard. I hope you find something that’s a good fit for you.

      1. Fibrogal*

        Sadly I started having issues in the middle of university. So I have a BA and lots of retail experience, but I’m having trouble figuring out what I can do from home with that. I thankfully have an appointment with a provincial job search organization that specializes in helping people with disabilities find employment so I have a decent chance of finding something.

    4. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      A friend of mine who is deaf works with an organization like a crisis hotline, as a texter. If you are able to speak well, there are a fair amount of work-from-home jobs like that (crisis hotlines on the nonprofit side, tech or other support on the soulless corporation side) that offer flexible hours.

      Depending on your ability to drive, you could do Lyft, and just work in one or two hour spurts as you’re feeling up to it?

  121. Just Peachy*

    TGIF!

    So glad the work week is coming to a close. I stayed up WAY too late last night watching March Madness, BUT my team is still alive (KSU Wildcats!) Hope everyone has a great Friday at work, and an awesome weekend!

  122. Ava*

    I missed the thread about expertise yesterday, but I’m curious about graphic design – how do i tailor my career path toward that?

    I have an unrelated liberal arts degree but I did take introductory coursework in graphic design so I have very light skills in it. My professional experience is primarily digital marketing but I really want to focus on graphic design, more specifically designing brand identities. There’s a certificate program at the local community college that I want to do, but what else can I be doing to build my skills in that area besides just freeform practicing graphic design?

    1. GD*

      Hi! Graphic designer here. The fastest/best way to break in is through showing client work. I’d start off by letting friends/family know that you want to take some work on, do some freelancing in your immediate network and then leverage that freelance work to get jobs a little bit outside of your network. You don’t need a massive portfolio to get hired– I tell students that 10 pieces/projects are sufficient, especially if you can explain the thought process behind decisions you made.

      I will say that to work your way up to designing brand identities you have to sort of “prove yourself” and show that you can work within the style guidelines of existing brands. So don’t get too discouraged if you get hired to say, produce some ads for a company that has a strong brand already– take the opportunity to follow their guidelines and push them in a fresh, creative direction!

      (Coursework isn’t a bad thing, either, I just think it isn’t totally necessary if you already have a degree, even an unrelated one!)

      1. Ava*

        Thanks for the advice! My only concern is that I don’t have enough knowledge to work on it on my own, and therefore develop my skills efficiently. I know how to work the adobe suite programs, however I feel like I don’t quite have the “design eye” since I haven’t had more than surface level education about the fundamentals and principles of design. I can recognize good design work, and even replicate it, however I don’t feel like I’m yet on the level of understanding it like a professional would.

        I definitely understand that this will take time and I won’t be working on big exciting projects from the start, I guess I’m just wondering the best way to go about learning those skills without quitting my job to become an intern. I’ve been reading books which has helped me learn a lot, but I was thinking about doing coursework to have a more hands-on understanding.

        1. Another GD*

          Your eye is going to take some time to develop, it’s a matter of time x exposure x trial x error. You can speed up this process by seeking out and studying all kinds of art and design – museums, books, films, architecture, nature. Look for patterns, color palette, how shadows and highlights interact, structure etc. Basically try to identify all the building blocks by applying what you know of fundamentals and principles.

          Since you are looking to get into brand identity, practice Illustrator if you aren’t 100% fluent in it. Seek out books and case studies on logos, art direction, social psychology, symbolism, metaphors. Make your own creative briefs: pick an existing or made-up company, choose a target market, what you want to express, purpose etc, and then try to make at least 10 options for each brief.

          I also want to give a heads-up on this, because it’s extremely common, especially when you start transitioning over to creating your own designs – you’re most likely gonna go through a rough period in the beginning, with plenty of trial and error. It’s normal, and will pass, as long as you keep moving forward. I’m only saying this because I wish someone would have told me upfront, it would have saved me looooots of frustration :)

  123. just me*

    I just had the WEIRDEST interview with a recruiter. I’d already had a successful phone screen, and this was a 90 minute Skype interview. They wanted a “cradle to grave” assessment, and asked me a bunch of questions about my childhood “where did you grow up?”, college “why did you decide to go there?” (I told them because they gave me the best financial aid package, which is true). It’s so strange – how does a decision I made at 18 have any bearing on how I’d perform a VP job at 42, after 20 or so years in the industry? So that’s at least two hours spent interviewing and I’ve still to meet anyone from the company.

    I’ve never worked with any outside recruiter before – is this normal? It sure doesn’t feel like it.

    1. Trillion*

      That’s…. icky. I’ve worked with several outside recruiters and have no experienced it, but maybe it’s more normal than you or I know.

    2. Oxford Coma*

      They wanted a “cradle to grave” assessment

      So, they wanted to murder you?

      But seriously, WTF. This sounds like a way to get you to talk about a lot of protected/ineligible information.

      1. spock*

        One of my coworkers is job-hunting and has asked me to be a reference. I’ve never given a reference before, so I’m thinking if I do get contacted, I’ll let them know that it’s the first reference I’m giving, my reasoning being that if I omit something totally normal they’ll know it’s because of a lack of experience on my end rather than trying to cover something up. Would this be weird of me to do or make my coworker look bad? Am I just totally overthinking everything?

    3. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      Is this an internal recruiter (aka, works at a company you’re trying to work for), or an external one (is contracted by probably several companies and might submit you to any of them)? I mean, it’s fairly weird either way, but if they’re external it’s a bit less weird – they’re not making hiring decisions so collecting protected class info isn’t as big a deal, and theoretically a really in-depth question session will give them info to better match you to specific jobs.

      There are probably much much much better ways of doing it, either way, but if they’re external its a bit more justifiable, as they may just be trying to figure out the universe of stuff they could submit you for.

    4. Blue Eagle*

      When I was a hiring manager that is exactly how I started the interview. I was hiring for a job that required analytical skills and the ability to clearly explain information. So there were alot of “why” questions – the reasons the candidate gave were not evaluated per se, what was being evaluated was if the candidate was able to give reasons for the decision she made and if she was able to explain clearly. Candidates who were not able to articulate “why” they made a particular decision or who talked round and round were eliminated from a more in-depth interview.

      Perhaps this is what the recruiter was trying to ascertain.

  124. Lirael*

    So my husband and I work for the same large company with headquarters in City A – we’re on different teams, but in adjoining buildings. Husband has wanted to get into a slightly different career track than the one he’s on currently for years, and has been applying for jobs, but only occasionally even gets to the interview stage, probably because he doesn’t have any direct related experience (which I think is dumb because he’s in a similar role now with lots of transferable skills and background knowledge, but what can you do). A job opened up in our current company in his desired field, but that team is in City B, about an eight hour train ride away, and they apparently are not up for remote work. Our company is struggling (unless we get purchased, which has been in progress, hung up waiting for regulatory approvals, for probably a year and a half).

    I’m really happy in my current job, and don’t want to leave it (and it’s a role where even if the company goes under and gets taken over by state regulators, my team will be needed – maybe not all of us, but likely most). There are a few people on my team that are 100% remote, and I’ve had an informal conversation with my boss, and it seems like I could go remote (either at home, or in the City B office), but I struggle when I don’t have people to interact with during the day, and City B is probably 50% more expensive to live in than City A, and the role he’s applying for is probably not going to be super secure if the company goes under, so I hate to move for this particular job. He’s applied for the job – hiring tends to move fairly slowly here, so we haven’t really heard anything back yet.

    We’ve been considering having Husband take the overnight train Sunday night, stay in a small apartment over the week, then come back overnight Friday to spend the weekend with me and our almost three-year old daughter. If it turns out to be too miserable, then we move our whole family up there, but we’re thinking right now that we try to do this for a year, then Husband looks for a new, more stable job, preferably in a less expensive city, in his desired field.

    Is a year enough time to break into a field? Are there other pitfalls to this we aren’t thinking of? Is it terrible to consider taking a new position and only staying in it a year or so? We’ll reassess if he turns out to love it, and if the company gets through the regulatory hurdles to be sold, but based on best information right now, it’s not likely to be a really longterm job for him. I know it’ll also be hard personally on our whole family, but he’s been wanting to break into this field for years without success, and an internal move seems like it’ll be an easier path, so we’re willing to make some sacrifices.

    1. valentine*

      Since you’re happy and secure, why not work around your job? It sounds like you’re revolving around his job search, even though his new job in City B would be insecure (and you might be laid off rather than returned to your current team) and you don’t know what City C might be or have for you. The long-distance plan sounds extremely difficult, especially with a 3-year-old, but maybe she is good with distance? If he wants a different job, even if it’s not in his desired field, what if he changes jobs in City A and you can reassess post-reorg?

      1. Lirael*

        We have actually been prioritizing my job for the past two to three years. And my boss is great and willing to go to bat for me, so I’m not too worried about getting pushed out/onto another team, but that is good to keep in mind in case circumstances change. Husband is fairly happy in his current job aside from it not being his desired field, so he’s not looking to move unless he can find something in that field (and there aren’t really options in City A) or if our current company falls out of the holding pattern it’s currently in for the worse.

  125. Tam*

    My husband has a problem with his coworker and needs advice! She complained to her supervisor that he is asking her questions and watching her work. The types of questions he asks are “Did you do anything fun over the weekend?” type of stuff. He has tried to be friendly since they work in the same laboratory together. Since he sits in the same room, he can’t avoid seeing her work. She is only about 5 feet away. After her complaint to her supervisor, he was called in to talk with his supervisor and her supervisor about the complaint. In not so many words, they recommended he go to HR and explain the situation. He has done that, but he is worried that she is going to take this further. We feel confident that he can’t get in trouble for being friendly and he has stopped talking to her altogether, so hopefully she is happy now and will leave him alone. But, he is now stuck sitting next to a coworker that has it out for him for some reason and he is stressed out at work. He used to love his job, but now it is miserable for him. Thoughts?

    2. beanie beans*

      Is it too late for the two of them to talk to each other about the situation to really understand what the issue is? Maybe some conflict resolution?

      I think if the coworker isn’t clear about what is bothering her, the tension is going to continue because your husband will be paranoid that anything he says will be an issue.

      Maybe I’m projecting some of my own issues with overly friendly coworkers, but if I were your husband, I’d pause for a second on the auto-defense-mode and ask specifically what it is that’s causing her complaint so he can stop doing whatever it is.

    3. valentine*

      She’s uncomfortable enough that both supervisors and HR are involved. She says he’s watching, versus seeing, her work. He can look elsewhere. Even if he swears he’s staring into space (while facing her), he can stop at any time. If they are in each other’s periphery, not staggered, he’s turning toward her when he can do otherwise.

    4. Dionaea*

      He can get in trouble for being friendly. My husband got written up for sexual harassment after responding to direct questions by a female professor (he worked maintenance at a university at the time) and as she reported it, making eye contact while talking to her. Tell your husband to be very, very careful.

  126. Berry*

    My contract is finally up in a few weeks and I’m so exhausted about worrying about my next steps. I’ve loved the company and the work that I’ve done, but also my bitterness about not being a full time employee has grown a bit so I know it’s time to move on. My manager has also started to interview for my replacement, and I’ve been aware that I’m going to be training them and have been working on transition documents, but it was still stung seeing them actually interview someone in the office yesterday.

    I’ve been applying for jobs for a while but no bites yet, and I don’t know if I should just embrace a few weeks of unemployment after my contract ends and use it to regroup or if I need to double down and apply for everything remotely similar right now. I’ve been switching how I feel about this like every day.

    The silver lining is regardless of whether or not I have a job a few weeks from now at least I’ll have health insurance again!

    1. Ali G*

      When I left a job back in September, I knew in my head I should have been looking for new jobs/should start right away, but mentally I wasn’t able to even consider working right away. I definitely needed a little time off thinking about work. I’m still glad I did it, but the down side is that they always say “it’s easier to get a job when you have one.” I think it’s true – I still don’t have a job, but a lot of that is how I’ve been approaching job searching, so it’s on me.
      Maybe just keep doing what you are doing and see how it goes?

    2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      I feel you. I left my job voluntarily, but was really split between wanting to take a week or two off in between leaving and starting my own biz, vs feeling like I needed to immediately begin the hustle and getting money in. I recommend a compromise… maybe you can commit to applying to, say, 10 jobs between now and your last day? Something that is manageable and will help you feel like you’re doing something real and concrete, but you also don’t have to jump in and apply for everything you see. You can spend a couple days on each application, or do 2 in one evening and have the rest of the week (or whatever) free from worry.

      1. fposte*

        So is that the story behind the “no longer Esq.” tag? Congratulations on the new venture!

        1. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

          Hahaha, yes, thanks! I was a notary, but my commission was owned by my employer… I could continue to be one on my own, but I don’t have an office and don’t want to have to list my home online as a notary location. So I abandoned the commission, and thus cannot call myself Esquire anymore.

  127. Catelyn*

    I (finally!) reported my old employer to HR for discrimination… and now they want to open an investigation. I am both excited and anxious – any tips for how to CYA?

    1. fposte*

      Stay professional and polite to everybody. If there’s any behavior that could be retaliation, note down the particulars and pass that along to HR as well.

    2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      Stick to the facts! State things that happened, provide any evidence you can, and note any impact.

      And just be aware that… it’s scary. At least, it can be. Yes, people might threaten to sue you or something else (and certainly, those threats might come whether or not they have a legal leg to stand on). Sometimes the only way out is through. Just keep reminding yourself that what you’re doing might make a big difference not only for yourself, but those who come after you.

      Sincerely, the person whose complaints against an old boss have been in limbo for months and who thinks every day about giving up. :/

  128. no, the other one*

    I just heard about an awful mix up that the AAM crowd will appreciate: a friend’s company is having layoffs today, and I got a text that their boss was about to get laid off since she was locked out off all the accounts.
    There are TWO people with the same name at the company and they LOCKED OUT THE WRONG ONE.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      This actually happened to a friend of mine — she and another coworker have VERY similar names (like 1 letter off) and my friend received the email about layoff stuff over the actual laid off coworker. Said friend replied and was like “uhhh, is there something I need to know?” Our only in-house HR person was horrified and super apologetic.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I can see where that would happen – especially if IT doesn’t know either person.
      But…does the person who got locked out know it isn’t that person? And does the other person think they are “safe” (but they actually aren’t?)
      That is an unfortunate mix-up.

  129. ShopLady*

    I work in a small store within a larger charity; I am the head of department. I’ve been a manager for a few years, but I’ve never had a particularly difficult employee so approaching performance issues is a bit new to me. I have an assistant manager who has been in post far longer than I have worked here, yet is not performing any of the tasks one would associate with management. I am working on creating a PIP for her, but she has one habit that makes it very difficult to give her any feedback (as I try to do so that this PIP will not be suprising to her). Every time I try to explain something she has the habit of saying ‘Okay, yes, okay. Okayyyy. Okayyyyy’ as I’m speaking, often several times before I even finish a sentence. For example this happened today:

    ‘This month my attention is going to be focused elsewhere (okayyy) and I’ll need you (okayyyyy) to take on more staff management (yesssss) while I am working on this project (okayyyyy). I’ll be in regular (okayyyy) meetings until (alright) the end of May while we (okayyyyy) work towards the deadline (okayyy, riiiight)’

    It’s not said sarcastically and I don’t think she realises she’s doing it, but it is driving me mental and breaks my train of thought. It’s always said in a tone that makes me think she’s trying to understand what I say. I’m worried I’m going to snap at her and I don’t want it to seem like I’m picking on her, but it really needs to stop. Any advice?

    1. fposte*

      To me that’s not a huge thing–it’s basically her version of nodding or “uh-huh”–and it wouldn’t put me off giving her feedback. But it puts you off, and I think it’s perfectly fine for you to say “You tend to interject with ‘okay’ when I give you feedback and I’m going to ask you to hold that back until I’m done speaking so that I can focus on the information.” She may interject with an “Okay” in the middle of that and you can point it out right there.

      1. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

        Yeah, idk. On the one hand, this just sounds like a particularly active version of ‘active listening.’ On the other, I did have someone who would do that at an old job and she was very very very bad at taking feedback, and her “okay, okay” was a way to try to get you to stop talking to her, like “I understand what you’re going to say,” even though she really really didn’t. It’s like active listening, but so active that they’re not even actually listening?

        So, ShopLady, I think the key is… is this person actually listening? You might try a repeat-back of some kind from now on… after you’ve talked with her, ask her “OK great, can you just repeat back to me what we just talked about, so I can make sure we’re on the same page?” Or, if email is common in your context, you can make it even more natural, like “can you take what we just talked about, write it up, and email it to me, so we don’t forget?” or something.

        (props to the Management Center for this technique! it sounds really weird and basic, but I can tell you from personal experience that this will quickly highlight whether two people are actually on the same page or not!)

        1. fposte*

          Yes, that’s fair; I can definitely see it that way too. So I like your advice if ShopLady thinks this is a deflection.

  130. MissGirl*

    How do people respond when someone you don’t know personally reaches out to you and asks if you’ll forward their resume along for an open position in your department? I have no say in hiring and only know what my manager is looking for based on the posting.

    I feel guilty saying no but awkward passing it on. I don’t mind answering questions about the department and company. We’ve had a lot of open positions and it keeps happening, more so than I’d be comfortable doing.

    1. fposte*

      I say “I’m sorry, I’m not involved in the hiring process; here’s a link to the posting that includes application information.”

      I would never pass on a resume from somebody I didn’t know, and I think it’s out of line for them to ask you.

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        I think this is excellent wording! Most companies have an established hiring system, so refer them back to that.

    2. ContentWrangler*

      No guilt needed. This is a big ask from people who don’t even really know you. And you shouldn’t pass on a resume because that can seem like a tacit endorsement of that candidate. When people ask you, just say “Sorry, can’t, the hiring manager prefers candidates to go through the official application process.”

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      I’d refer them to the directions in the job posting. Then I’d send a note to the hiring manager that the applicant tried to circumvent the process.

      If I was the hiring manager, I’d be interested in knowing that.

    4. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      I might ignore it if I’ve never met them, normally I’ll just reply with the best way to apply directly. If they make it clear that they’ve already applied, I actually normally will just do what they say… like, I’ll shoot an email to the hiring manager like “Hey, I got a note from PERSON asking me to flag their application for you, so I’m doing it! I haven’t worked with them before and I don’t know them (or, alternately, I haven’t worked with them before but they’re a friend of a friend), but for whatever it’s worth, they’re applying.”

      Something that doesn’t commit me to anything but I can tell the person that I did it. It’s such a small ask (since I’m not vouching for them) that I usually just oblige with an honest account of what I know about them. In my contexts, that’s usually been “this person applied for an internship with DEPARTMENT earlier this year, and is really interested in OTHER DEPARTMENT, so I told them I’d be happy to flag their application for you. So here I am! We didn’t advance them in our process, but there weren’t any red flags or anything.” Or whatever.

      1. MissGirl*

        I did that with the first few but my manager never responded to my email, which makes me wonder if he found it annoying.

  131. Oxford Coma*

    I had unexpected car trouble last week, and a college kid went out of his way to help me out on the side of the road. I plan on sending him a gift card in a thank you note. I was also considering including my business card and offering to serve as a character reference if he needs it for school or an internship.

    Is this useful, or weird and irrelevant? I know absolutely nothing about his field of study, so it really would just be talking about his random act of kindness rather than his marketable skills.

    1. NoGhosting*

      That is really nice of you! A lot of times when I go out of my way to help people they say thanks and are on their way. I know if it were me I would really appreciate this.

    2. ContentWrangler*

      A gift card is such a sweet thing to do but I can’t think of a single school or internship that would want a random character reference. If your fields aren’t related, I would keep the thank you personal and not about jobs.

    3. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      Eh, I mean, sometimes character references are useful! In particular, I feel like they’re often asked for on lease applications, and it can be hard to come up with character references that aren’t friends or family. I say do it! It’s up to them if they want to use it. I guess, be prepared if they contact you for a reference you’re not prepared to give, but otherwise I think it’s a nice gesture.

  132. NoGhosting*

    The temp position I have been absolutely loving would have ended this coming Monday but I got a call yesterday from my temp agency saying that they were extending my contract to the end of May! And I get more responsibilities! I am so excited!

  134. Admin 4 Life*

    Can anyone help me with a good script for pushing back against buying into a fellow empolyee’s side business? I’ve been with the company for 4 months and am building a good network with the admin staff in each of the departments. I often get asked if I want to join their fitness program, bootcamp, diet/supplementation thing – think tupperware party but for fitness. It’s normally something I would consider just to build relationships with key people (who are actually lovely so I wouldn’t hate spending my time that way and it’s a product or gym I would be spending time at anyway) but I’m financially strapped and trying really hard to cement myself as a good hire for a role created for me.

    To top it off I’m terrible with finding the right words and often come up with my own neologisms by smashing three similar words together when I’m anxious. I can look back and see what I did after the fact, but I don’t want to come across as all talk and like I’ll weasel out of things (which tends to be the way my tone comes across combined with my bad habit of not using firm language.)

    I’d love a suggestion or two to pull from. Thank you, everyone!

    1. Ali G*

      “That sounds really interesting, but unfortunately my budget doesn’t allow me to make those kind of commitments right now! But if you ever want to go running/other free relating thing sometime let me know!”
      Keep it light, say no, suggest an alternative.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Straight up, “Oh, no thanks!” with a smile. The smile is the softening part so you don’t need softening language (which usually leads to making excuses, which leads sales people to push back and it just drags on). There have been some discussions of how to dissuade sales people and MLMs, and the best response is a simple no with no excuses attached.

      Ali G’s suggestion of adding an alternative (going for coffee, having lunch sometime) is great too – it says “I’m not interested in your side business but I would like to be friendly.”

  135. TheDivineGoat*

    Does anyone else have staff, that are really good, really talented, but have moments where they leave common sense behind?

    I shouldn’t have to tell someone not to use a metal spoon in a working blender…

    1. Little Bean*

      I believe I am a really good, really talented employee but I just learned a couple of years ago that you’re not supposed to microwave tin foil.

    2. Afiendishthingy*

      I once accidentally laminated part of my cardigan. Then once I stopped the laminator briefly thought I was stuck there before I realized I could just take off the sweater

    3. rosiebyanyothername*

      I have a coworker who is very intelligent but his sense of direction is almost comically off. When we sent a taxi to take him to the airport for a business trip he got lost finding it… across the street.

      1. Lily Evans*

        That sounds like me! I’m usually on top of things but my sense of direction is SO BAD. I once got lost going to a theater that was 3 minutes from the stop I got off at and that I’d been to the night before. And I was like 20 minutes out of the way, ended up in a part of the city I’d never been before, kind of lost. But I got to see one of the touristy landmarks I’d never bothered to go to before…

    4. fposte*

      I once found my way carefully to a school for an interview only to discover that I should have been at a totally different school a few blocks away. No, they did not have the same or similar names.

    5. GD*

      We discovered that a co-worker of mine had no idea about the geography of like, every state that is not on a coast. The best part is that he was from Minnesota. The guy would seriously say “X and Y state are next to each other?”

      He was great otherwise, though! lol

    6. Owlette*

      My boss took me to lunch one day as a big thank you. I drove. It took me 15 minutes to parallel park in front of the restaurant. He laughed his ass off the entire time!

    7. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      TBH, I am that employee.

      An old, but very good example: my first job was fast food, at a place that made shakes. I had been on the job actual months, pretty familiar with how to make all the things, and then one day someone ordered a chocolate milkshake. I was so confused. I tried to ask my manager for help, but the instructions she gave me (after giving me quite the look) were the exact same as making a chocolate shake.

      She was getting more and more frustrated with me, I’m sure because what I was asking didn’t make any sense… because we made “shakes” which are made with ice cream and mix-ins, and when this person ordered a “milk shake” I genuinely thought this was a totally different thing, possibly milk-based?

      I realized maybe 10 minutes later (after just making a chocolate shake and hoping the customer didn’t notice the difference?) that a “shake” and a “milk shake” are just the literal exact same thing. D’oh.

  136. Little Bean*

    Should I ask for my title to include Director? Basically I am a department of one. I am the only person in the organization who does my job, and it has a high level of independence. I check in with my boss once every 2 weeks to give updates and get feedback and I otherwise am completely in charge of the agenda for my area. Almost everyone else who works at my level (i.e. all the people who are in regular team meetings with me) has a Director title. However, this is a brand new role (I am the first person to ever do this job for my organization) and I’ve been in it for about a year. Is that long enough to ask for a title change that would essentially be an upgrade? I would not ask for a raise at the same time, but would probably get my organization’s minimum COL increase. I don’t supervise anyone (most of the other Directors don’t either).

    1. the cake is a pie*

      Depending on your office culture, this might fall into “doesn’t hurt to ask.” A year sounds like a reasonable amount of time to ask for a title change. And since you can point to other examples of people at a similar level who do equivalent work that have the Director title, it sounds like you have a good standing to request a chance. If you have accomplishments from the year to show off (“I increased x by 5% this year while in this role”) or if you can argue that a director title will help you in interactions with outside vendors or clients, that would probably put you over the top.

  137. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

    I have a question on how to deal with a situation when there is no HR. I recently graduated college and took a temp job at a manufacturing company as an accounting assistant. They hired me on full time after 30 days. The company is really small, mostly filled with older gentlemen and me and one other woman who is almost to retirement. It is not my dream job by any means, but the money is good. But over my 10 months here I have noticed little things like asking me to clean the kitchen, make them coffee, or commenting on my looks. These things were annoying, but I was able to brush them off.

    But recently things have escalated. Specifically, I volunteered to man the table at a golf fundraiser where the president was participating. By the time the tournament was over, everyone was very intoxicated, including the president, lets call him Joffrey. I should mention I had not had one drink, as I was in charge of the fundraising table. I was sitting down, and Joffery walks up to me and starts massaging my shoulders. I don’t like to be touched so I shifted and asked him to come around the table so he could sign something. He then went under the table, grabbed my legs, and startled, I stood up and asked him what he was doing. He said, “I was just trying to spread your legs”. Obviously I was horrified. The rest of the day is a blur. (Did I mention it was also my birthday?)

    Now I’m not sure what to do. We do not have an HR, and Joffrey was really drunk, so drunk I don’t think he would remember if I confronted him. I feel sick going to work now, and I cant quit without another job lined up. I feel like it is unfair for me to quit and lose my livelihood, when I did not do anything wrong. But I cant keep going to work, what are the steps to take when there is no formal HR, is this even worth reporting?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      First, ew. Just…I’m so sorry.

      Does Joffrey have a board or anyone he reports to? That would be my first stop I think.

      1. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

        It is a swedish company, so the board and headquarters are located there :(

    2. Ali G*

      OMG that is horrifying! I am so sorry you had that happen.
      It’s doesn’t matter how drunk Joffrey was – he sexually assaulted you. You have every right to expect this to be rectified.
      First, I would talk to the other female worker and see if she has had any similar experiences.
      Either way, my path forward would be to confront Joffrey about what he did and let him know that no matter the circumstances was he behavior was unacceptable and illegal.
      He will likely try to blow you off or make you feel like it was your fault or other some sh*t. Don’t fall for it. Tell him you haven’t gone to the police yet, but you will if he doesn’t own up to it. Then, if you really feel like you can’t work there anymore, tell him that you cannot to continue to work for him anymore base on HIS actions, and because he ASSAULTED you, you require a generous severance package so that you can continue to survive until you find a new job. If he pushes back at all, turn around and leave. When he asks where you are going, say “to the police” and then go there (you might consider filing the police report now anyway – he deserves it).
      Another option if you don’t feel comfortable confronting him is to file the police report and hire a lawyer to get you compensated for his assault on you.
      This is not your fault and you shouldn’t have to pretend it is or suffer because of this dirtbags actions.
      Please update so we know you are OK!

    3. Murphy*

      Oh my god. I’m so sorry. That’s definitely disgusting behavior, and it should be reported.

      Is there anyone else higher up in the company that you trust that you can talk to? (I mean higher than you, and close to the top.)

      1. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

        Not really anyone I would feel comfortable with. I’m feverishly job searching right now, but it may take a while. I really don’t think my boss remembers, and the culture here is very much “boys will be boys” even with the only other woman. Joeffery definitely knows something is up. I keep avoiding him, which is not our normal. I feel like i’ve been transported back to the stoneage. Ultimately I am OK, mostly in shock!

    4. KR*

      Who is your manager? Can you tell them that this happened to you and that you are uncomfortable being in work? They or someone you’ve worked with closer in the past may have more standing to say, Hey jacka$$, what you did at the fundraiser was horrific and has made Anastasia incredibly uncomfortable at work. Is there a particular gentlemen there who seems more “woke” than the others you could who you could ask so you don’t have to deal with this on your own? I’m so sorry. That’s awful, the sexism, the harrassment, all of it.

    5. fposte*

      Oh, wow, that really sucks. When you say “temp job,” is this through an agency? Because you can definitely bring it up to the agency if so.

      1. AnonAndOn*

        She said they hired her on after 30 days, so the temp agency would no longer be her point of contact.

  138. Dee*

    I had a video interview yesterday. Blame mercury retrograde or human error, but the connection was horrible! (And yes, I’d checked it multiple times on multiple devices on my end). I think other than a lot of “Excuse me? Could you repeat that again, please?” it went well and hopefully they’ll be sympathetic to the issues.

  139. Ali G*

    I have a conundrum.
    I left a toxic work place back in September. Since then I’ve had the opportunity to take some adult ed classes, volunteer and figure out what I want to do next. I pretty much came to the realization that I wanted to pivot my career slightly – basically I wanted to support efforts in the field I was in, but not strive to be “at the top” due to stress, politics and what seems to be inherent toxicity that comes with Big Paycheck.
    So I applied for a few positions that were more what I was looking for (and a significant pay cut, but I’m still on severance from my old job and my husband and I have an agreement on how low I can go on future salary, so this is OK with me), but nothing came through. Last week I took a temp position for a small local non-profit (just to get me out of the house and start having a little extra money coming in to offset me going on hubs health insurance next month) – I start on Monday and was looking forward to it because it could give me the chance to develop some skills in areas I know I need in order to be better qualified for the type of jobs I want (things like communications, fundraising – which I have done but have never been a core part of my job).
    Literally the SAME DAY the founder of a company in my old field reached out to me on Linked In regarding an open position they have. We chatted and he basically offered me what would have been my dream job 6 months ago.
    I’m now so conflicted because this is something I know I could do, I’d be really good at it, and the fact that my former employer wouldn’t give me this exact opportunity is a lot of the reason why I left. It also puts me back in the same salary range I was previously, so yay financial stability! But on the other hand, I feel like if I take this job, I am giving up on my “new” dream job. But I don’t even know if I can find a “new” dream job, or that it even exists. How can I pass up this opportunity for what is essentially unknown?
    Anyone have any thoughts or advice?

    1. .*

      Sounds to me like you’re afraid to take the plunge, but somewhere you know it’s the right thing to do, otherwise you wouldn’t be so doubtful at taking the Big Paycheck.
      It takes guts to follow your gut, not going for stability and comfortable. But hey if you can afford to (and it sounds like you talked it over with your husband) I say go for it! Take that leap of faith. The fact that you look forward to the temp position, to develop and grow your skills, is in stark contrast with a position you know you’re already good at. Growth happens outside your comfort zone, but it’s so worth it.
      I know it feels like you’re at a major crossroad, but you can always go back or to something different in a few months/years. Describing your old place as toxic sounds horrible and now you’ve had time to see things clearly and realign your priorities.
      I totally get that there is a big uncertainty and a lot of unknowns, but that’s the future, who knows what it’ll bring!
      Good luck!

    2. AnotherJill*

      I don’t think you can think of any job as a dream job when you haven’t had it yet. I would try not to get hung up on thinking of either of them in those terms and look at the more practical aspects – is it possible to work some of the aspects that you desire into the new job, can you deal with it if the temp job doesn’t last long or isn’t what you think it is, etc.

  140. Fuzzyfuzz*

    I am curious what people here think about counter offers.

    Part 1: I am a team lead on a small team, where I have 2 direct reports, and one junior colleague who I don’t have hire/fire power over but whose work I supervise. Both Jr. Colleague (JC) and I report to a department head boss. This week, JC let Boss know she has an offer for a job with a higher salary and title. Boss came to me with the news and let me know that he was inclined to try to keep her/provide a counter-offer (he couldn’t match the offer, but there were other things to sweeten the pot). This really surprised me, ultimately because JC is a mediocre to low performer, which boss has expressed frustration with on numerous occasions. He and I have tried to coach her through and there has been moderate improvement, but recently he expressed frustration that ‘she does the bare minimum and not much else.’ When he said he wanted to keep her, I asked him why and reminded him of his frustrations with her performance. His response was that he didn’t want to hire/train someone new because it takes a while (6 months to a year) to get someone on board. Not if they’re great! But anyway, HR pushed back on offering the counter offer (so we didn’t do it) and JC took the new job.

    Part 2: We are recruiting old assistant (OA) to replace JC. OA left our company for a raise and higher title because JC was essentially in her way, even though she was/is a much higher performer. She is almost 95% coming back. However, Boss expressed concern that new employer might try to counter offer OA. She is wonderful and amazing but has been at the new place for 2 months. I said that if I was in their shoes, I wouldn’t counter offer because of her short tenure and because it shows she’s unhappy enough to quit (she is). Boss disagreed and said he would counter offer if in their shoes.

    Am I some kind of monster or out of touch with counter offer norms? In neither of these situations would I try to retain these team members. What do people think?

      1. Fuzzyfuzz*

        Right?! I totally agree but wasn’t sure if I was being overly rigid. Boss has made some questionable management decisions (e.g. hiring JC in the first place–I raised objections which turned out to be right), so maybe this is just one of them. Otherwise, he’s great and supportive so this is a strange blind spot.

  141. nancy*

    Question for the commentariat, especially folks in tech – would you consider it problematic if an applicant had worked in an administrative role on a software dedicated to the cannabis industry?

    I’m speaking with a recruiter about a role that he just revealed is sold to legal weed entrepeneurs in Colorado and Washington. I’m in a legal state, the business is in a legal state, and the role would again be administrative/corporate but this is giving me pause as I wonder if it would reflect badly on me in the future as I apply for whatever comes after that!

    1. SoCalHR*

      This is one of those things that what SHOULD happen and what MAY happen could be different. In reality, if you work for a legal business, the merits of your work should be looked at. But, culturally, the cannabis industry is still on the fringe, so it may in reality harm you a bit (think Hooters waitress v. Olive Garden waitress or something similar – there’s subjective bias and prejudgments that come into play). Although if you’re looking to stay in Tech, then maybe it will be less of an issue, as opposed to applying for a bank or in finance later.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’m in tech, and wouldn’t have an issue with this, especially as you mention everyone involved is in a legal state.

      If you were a friend coming from that role to my company, I’d mention our mandatory drug testing (my company is not a tech company, but it has tech roles). If you were an applicant I’d never met before, I wouldn’t think twice about the business.

      (I’ve got a coworker who has a previous job that is one of the few cases where it probably is better to describe the job as “back office support for a direct sales company”, because what the company sold is so very NSFW. A computer is still a computer, after all.)

    3. Windchime*

      I’m also in a legal state, and I wouldn’t think a thing about it if we had an applicant from Leafly or something. After all, tech is tech and the marijuana industry is just another industry. I myself would do work for such a company (but I wouldn’t do it for the tobacco industry). I’m a child of the 1970’s, so YMMV.

    4. Canadian Teapots*

      This might seem out of left field a bit, but to give you an idea of how dicey it can get, the news media here has been actively warning Canadians NOT to take jobs with any cannabis-related companies in the USA, even if they have all the paperwork lined up, because US Customs is their own beast and has the authority to turn people away for just about any reason.

      (This also likely means any corollary to that is, any Canadian who takes a job with a Canadian cannabis-related company should be prepared to leave that job off their resume if they want to go to the states for employment, and be prepared for a lot of “I can’t answer that”s if asked.

  142. Afiendishthingy*

    Been rehearsing responses to coworker from hell. “Wow.” and my “dont interrupt me, please” And my curious “Bosspeeps haven’t told me you’d be on this project with me— did they ask you to help me?” “Yes, you’ve said that. I’ve got this under control right now, I’ll ask if I have any questions for you.”

    I’m covering a maternity leave at a dysfunctional school. I’m a specialist in a field requiring a notoriously difficult to obtain certification. This placement is temporary but i am still highly qualified for the position. My peer is… difficult to work with. Understatement of the year. I’m interested in doing more short term consulting work, though, so this will either cure me or that interest or be an invaluable learning experience!

    Wish me luck.

  143. Greed is something we don't need*

    What should I do about my coworker? I work for a nonprofit that’s dedicated to helping low income women, I don’t want to post the company’s real name but we have “women” in the title, think like a women’s social service center. I noticed my coworker in her email signature insists on using an alternate spelling – “womyn”. I don’t think she would be allowed to do that and I don’t know if our boss has noticed, I pointed it out to her once but she says this is the new way the word women is spelled and should be used instead.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      It doesn’t matter how the word is spelled. I’m sure the legal name of the company hasn’t been updated. And that is what should be in the signature line.

    2. Curious Cat*

      Yeah she can spell women however she wants in her everyday usage, but when being used as the company name it should reflect the way the company spells the word. If you’re really curious/concerned you could talk to your communication/PR department, I’m sure they have their own company version of the AP Stylebook and they can probably tell you what is/isn’t ok for representing the company.

    3. rosiebyanyothername*

      There’s a lot of debate over that spelling anyway–just point out that the name of the organization hasn’t changed and you should keep branding consistent across all communications.

    4. Anonanonanon*

      I would reply that it is not the name the organization’s name is spelled. And loop in your boss.

  144. Master Bean Counter*

    Just going to vent for a moment so I can remain a professional at work.
    Earlier this week somebody at a sister company fell victim to a phishing scam. So all of our passwords had to be reset. In addition to this they figured this would be a good time to update emails so there is consistency. All was good until they tried to update the spam filter. Now an unfortunate series of events has happened. I’m getting a new hard drive.
    Now I’m working with web mail and it sucks. I should have taken a personal day. Also I’m at BEC stage with the phishing victim.

    1. AnotherJill*

      This reminds me of the time that someone at work fell victim to a virus that goes into their address book and sends out email from each contact that looks like somewhat legitimate. Followed by email from masses of people saying that they didn’t send out the email. Followed by email from the virus using their contacts. Followed by masses of email telling people not to open these attachments. Followed by masses of email from people saying that they didn’t send out the email….

      People who do dumb crap like this make me feel all ragey.

  145. the cake is a pie*

    Question about helping out a great boss with whom I have a friendly but not overly personal relationship.

    My direct boss has recently had to take in elderly family members, at least for a temporary basis. She has young children at home and so is suddenly facing a house full of people who need her help and care on top of working full time. I was wondering if there was anything I could do or provide or send that might be of help. If it was a friend, I would bring over a freezer dinner but I’m not sure whether that would be strange in this case, especially when she’d have to keep it at work and then take it home from the office. Any ideas of what can be done? Or should I just try to make sure things are as stress-free as possible at work.

    1. Irene Adler*

      Knowing that you can be trusted and counted on to take care of your work stuff such that you are minimizing boss’ stress levels is such a wonderful thing to do.
      So kind of you to be concerned. I bet your boss values you very much.

  146. spek*

    Question: How long should you wait in reception for a job interview? I was recently interviewing with a Fortune 500 company, at a remote city, which I traveled to at my own cost (I was in town anyway, so it worked out). This was the 2nd interview – a panel interview after a phone screen, and the first in person interview. Interview was scheduled for 10:30. I arrived on time, issued a visitor badge and asked to take a seat. Was told a little before 11 that someone would be with me shortly. I asked for status at 11:10 and the receptionist called the interviewer – no answer. At 11:30, I was walking up to the receptionist to tell her I was leaving when the interviewer finally appeared. He gave me a half-assed apology, and seemed taken aback when I politely told him I had plans in the afternoon and needed to leave by 1:00.
    So my question is – how long is too long? I know some factors come into play:
    Did they pay for travel?
    How bad do I need the job (I have a good job, and this position was iffy, so no problem for me to bail out, other than maybe burning the bridge).
    They did end up making an offer, which I declined…for a number of reasons; not being respectful of my time being one of them. Just curious if walking out after an hour would be considered unreasonable.

    1. Murphy*

      Unless there was a good reason and a good apology, walking out after an hour is definitely reasonable. If not earlier. (Though if I’d traveled like that, I probably would have stuck around like you did.)

      1. spek*

        I think if they had payed for my flight, and I was leaving to go back to the hotel they were paying for, then I might have stayed a little longer than an hour. Also depends on if they made all the arrangements or if I paid for flight and hotel and they were going to reimburse me – I can see them refusing to pay me back if I walked out….

        1. Murphy*

          That’s very true. Still extremely rude, but I’d probably stick around in that case too. (Plus if you traveled there just for that, what else are you going to do?)

    2. nep*

      I for one would leave after an hour. Not sure what is appropriate or what ‘convention’ is, but for this I sort of don’t care. I also would be turned off by the company by that, for sure.
      I’ve heard of people waiting that long or longer; I guess it’s a personal decision.
      I’ll be interested in the responses here. Is there a norm on this??
      Sorry you had to go through that. Perhaps a bullet dodged, who knows?

    3. rosiebyanyothername*

      I waited for an hour to interview for an internship in college (and reception didn’t even have chairs). It was the first red flag in what turned out to be the Internship From Hell, so I think it’s reasonable to walk out.

    4. Confused Teapot Maker*

      I would say you’re justified in walking out after an hour although I would say it’s less about the time and more about the way they handle it. Compare, for example, company A who leaves you to stew in a waiting room and bats you away whenever you try to get a status update on how long the delay is going to be and then acts like nothing happened when they finally do get around to seeing you and gets uppity if you dare to mention that you do have other things to do that day with company B who drops you a message that they are running late or has flagged it with the receptionist so you know when you arrive, offers to reschedule if you’ve got another commitment and apologises profusely when they do get around to seeing you.

      Like Rosie has hinted at, anytime I’ve been treated in a company A manner, it’s been what should have acted as a red flag to a bad job. If I had the luxury of being picky in those scenarios, I wouldn’t bother staying.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I agree. If they had kept you updated and been really apologetic, I’d be inclined to be more forgiving and not see it as a red flag (yellow, maybe). Dismissing their own lateness, disorganization, ignoring you, and wasting your time? Nope. If they treat you like an imposition when they’re supposed to be wooing you, it’s not going to get better from there.

  147. Thelastgoodname*

    Trying to fight those “probably-rejected-for-a-great-opportunity” blues. I thought every step of the process went fairly well, but looking back on it I probably came off as a little too green for them. The company was very prompt in reaching out to me until now (going on three weeks post-interview; was told they’d be making a decision in two weeks). I sent a polite email yesterday to the recruiter and I’m trying to move on mentally.

    Sometimes I wish more hiring managers would write their own job listings instead of having HR do it… or something. I was thrown off-balance a bit in my interview because the actual job description sounded somewhat different than what was posted. Still would’ve enjoyed the work, though. Oh well!

    1. SoCalHR*

      In slight defense of HR here ;-) managers often don’t know how to/don’t want to write the descriptions themselves and in my personal, recent experience, I can spend months trying to chase the supervisor for information only to have it be inaccurate because they’ve made changes or aren’t engaged in the process. I agree 100% the posting and the job description should be consistent, but it may not be all HR’s fault! :-D

  148. anon for sure*

    Nonprofit people especially, need some help here. How much would it derail my career to make a slight deviation from my career path?

    I currently work in nonprofit development at the assistant/associate level. I’ve really come to love the nonprofit world. Long term I’d like to either move up the development ladder, or switch to the office management/operations side at a nonprofit (I do a lot of admin work now and have in the past). Both tracks are equally appealing to me. The problem is that my current job is driving me crazy. Things have been bad for a while, and there are no signs of it getting better. The stress and frustration are seeping over to my personal life, adding to my pre-existing mental health issues, and I feel like I’m about to snap and just walk out of my office or scream at someone almost daily. There are no lack of nonprofits in my area, but just like any job hunt it takes a while for the right fit to come up. I’m considering applying to admin and office management jobs in other sectors since those are much more plentiful, just to get out of here. But will that kill my chances at moving back to a nonprofit later? I feel like I would still be able to apply to office management jobs at nonprofits, but I don’t know if I could get back to development (at least not at a level that will pay my bills). I don’t want to close the door on development and make my future job hunts that much harder. It’s taken me a lot of time and bad jobs to find something I like, and I don’t want to torpedo my chance at long term career happiness out of current desperation. Sorry that this is a bit rambling, I’m just at a loss and welcome any advice or thoughts.

    1. Funny Cide*

      I work at a nonprofit and our organization always welcomes people back into the fold. I think just being honest about wanting to do something else for a bit (your call on how specific you want to get about why exactly that is) but then realizing you had a passion for the type of work is totally reasonable!

  149. Student Engineer*

    I’m in final year of University and could really use some advice on my graduate career options. Basically, I’ve been offered pretty much my ideal job – exactly the field I want to be in, with a well-regarded company and good pay and benefits. Problem is my boyfriend (of 3 years) is halfway through his PhD in another city (4-5 hours drive away), so I had hoped to move there and job I’ve been offered is in my current city. Turns out there’s not much work in his city in my field, so looking for work there would probably mean taking something less ideal. I have to give a response to the job I’ve been offered by mid-April, so there’s not time to have something lined up for sure in the other city. It feels like a choice between my career and my relationship! Any thoughts?

    1. Alton*

      Does your boyfriend have any plans for where he might work when he finishes his PhD? What are his career prospects like in your city? Depending on his field, him getting a job in the city he’s currently in may not be a given, and in that case, I’d be cautious about passing up opportunities in the meantime. Also, what does “halfway” mean in terms of time? What’s the bigger concern: staying long-distance while he finishes his PhD or potentially not having a ton of time at this job if you decide to move after he finishes? If it’ll be at least a couple years before he’s done and you can handle the distance, I would probably take the local job and reevaluate based on his options down the line. But that’s me. You’ll have to weigh it out.

      1. Student Engineer*

        Part of the problem is that my boyfriend’s job prospects aren’t at all great in my city. Better in his city, but even then I think he’s going to have to be pretty flexible with where he goes once he finishes (end of 2019). I guess I’m leaning towards taking the job, because there’s a good chance of having to move again even if I did look for something in his city. Thanks for the perspective

    2. spock*

      Take this with many grains of salt as I’ve never had to make this kind of decision before – but I would take the job, and then decide if you want to job search in the BF’s city after weighing pros and cons. You have no guarantee of another offer any time soon (not a reflection of your skills which are obviously great, you just never know). Sounds like you’re long distance with BF already so that wouldn’t be a huge change, and taking a job doesn’t mean you’re obligated to tay forever but it does mean living and job-hunting will be a lot easier.

      1. Student Engineer*

        Good points, thank you! I actually don’t graduate til December (southern hemisphere…) so the job-hunting isn’t quite so urgent, but companies seem to hire grads very early!

    3. grace*

      Talk about it with him! Speaking from experience, the more you talk it out and figure where you both stand, the better. Maybe he does want to move to where you are when he graduates. Maybe at the end of 2019 you’ll both want to move and so another year and a half or so of a LDR isn’t that big, after all.

      I’ll say that I took a less than “ideal” job after I graduated (aka the ONLY job I was offered within a week of graduation) and I’m head over heels for it, and found a passion I had no idea existed. So try not to think ‘this is what I’m going to do forever,’ if that’s applicable, but rather, ‘this is what we/I am going to do for the next two years.’ Way more manageable. ;)

    4. Long-distance teapot maker*

      My then-boyfriend, now-husband and I were in a similar situation – I was halfway through my university studies when he had to move a 4 hour drive away because there was just no work for him in the city I was at uni in.

      As others have pointed out and I note you have mentioned below, it’s not guaranteed he’ll stay in his city forever and it would be a massive shame to turn down a job/spend forever job hunting in his city, only for him to move a few years later.

  150. Anonymous Ampersand*

    I interviewed yesterday for the job that’s replacing mine in the structure
    The odds were good (only one more person than jobs) but the stakes high, I love my job

    I ROCKED IT YOU GUYS

    They want to get me to the next grade up asap

    For context I was recently regraded to this grade like two months ago. I’ve never been promoted or regraded before

    OH MY GOD OH MY GOD

    running round squeee-ing

    1. JobinPolitics*

      Congratulations!

      I’m always happy to learn that AAM readers rock interviews.

      Well done!!

    4. Anonymous Ampersand*

      I am so thrilled and so glad I can share it with you guys!

      I’ve never had a job I could see a career progression with before. I’m so happy :)

  151. spock*

    One of my coworkers is job-hunting and has asked me to be a reference. I’ve never given a reference before, so I’m thinking if I do get contacted, I’ll let them know that it’s the first reference I’m giving, my reasoning being that if I omit something totally normal they’ll know it’s because of a lack of experience on my end rather than trying to cover something up. Would this be weird of me to do or make my coworker look bad? Am I just totally overthinking everything

    1. Irene Adler*

      You are overthinking this. Just answer the questions they have. Then, you can ask if there’s anything else they’d like to ask about coworker.

    2. Funny Cide*

      I gave my first reference not that long ago. I think I probably worried more than necessary, too – you know they’re important, so you want to do a good job. To ease my worries about it, I practiced by just writing out a couple paragraphs about what working with Joe Schmo was like. Then, I read back over them to see if it felt like that would be descriptive enough to get an idea of what they’re like if I were going to be hiring a person.

    3. Pollygrammer*

      You can always ask your coworker if there are any particular traits/skills they would like you to emphasize.

  152. Happy Friday*

    Random question, but what’s the etiquette for using inhalers at work? I have a puffer I’m supposed to use three times a day for a cough/asthma. Do you think it’s okay to do that at my desk, or should I go all the way to the washroom to use it?

    2. Laura H*

      Don’t be afraid to use it at your desk if you need to. I think desk might make it easier to keep on schedule too.

      But I have no experience taking medicine regularly throughout the day. (I take all mine at night)

    3. Whoa*

      Definitely use it at your desk. They aren’t very loud and shouldn’t be disruptive. If you are worried about optics, you could try to time them to when there aren’t a lot of people around, like during your lunch break or before/after people start leaving for the day.

  153. Anon for Potential Wage Discrimination*

    I’m wondering whether I should say or do anything about some discrepancies I’ve observed in title and salary between men and women at my organization.

    My organization recently reviewed and revised the standards for determining what level someone would be (size of budgets, number of programs managed, number of reports, years of experience, etc.), but there isn’t any consistency between those standards and titles people have. The two male program managers (including my boss) in my area have “Senior Director” titles; the four female program managers (including me) have “Manager” and “Director” titles.

    I manage a program that cuts across the other programs in my area, which means that in the budgeting process I have access to most of my colleagues salaries. As I was working on my budget this year I noticed that the male Senior Director makes about $13,000 more than most of the female Managers and Directors (one female Director has a similar salary to the man; one male Senior Director isn’t in my budget so I don’t know his salary). The program with the largest budget and staff is managed by one of the female Directors who makes $13,000 less than the male Senior Director.

    I had an experience with this organization last year which I didn’t interpret as gender discrimination at the time (just bad management), but noticing this disparity is making me reconsider what happened. I was offered and accepted a new internal role, which included a “manager” title and a 33% salary increase. Although I stepped into the new role (with a new boss, totally new project, etc.), the title change and salary increase never came through. I spent a year working with my employer on this (with many many meetings, including with the CEO, promises that failed to come through, my boss and the interim boss to whom I was assigned both moving on to new jobs, etc.) and eventually shifted back to my original job (and recieved a different title and a similar salary increase, but was never back paid for the year I spent in the new job without the increased salary).

    Is there anything I can or should do? Should I talk with the other women (who don’t have the same salary information that I do, and may not realize that I have access to their salaries)? Am I worrying over nothing (after all, there’s not much information to go on)?

    1. Millennial Lawyer*

      I may be biased since I’m an employment lawyer, but this is something I highly recommend speaking with an attorney about before you do anything *even if you have no intention of suing.* Someone with more specialized knowledge than you can get on this blog may be able to advise you on how to best proceed while protecting yourself and your position. For now, I would document everything you’re explaining now.

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      “I noticed that the male Senior Director makes about $13,000 more than most of the female Managers and Directors …”

      I would expect that a SD would make more than a M or D. The salary band for an SD should be higher than the salary band for a D, and the salary band for a D should be higher than the salary band for an M.

      1. Anon for Potential Wage Discrimination*

        Yes, of course. The reason the Senior Directors are paid more than the Directors or Managers is because they are classified as Senior Directors. The question is why the men are classified as Senior Directors when the women (with the same level of responsibility, as measured by programs managed, size of budgets, and number of reports) are classified as Directors or Managers.

  154. NonprofitAnon*

    I need some impartial opinions on the new staff “theme” that some of the directors of my nonprofit want to roll out. The directors team (of about 7) recently attended an event where Cy Wakeman was speaking and then proceeded to buy her book, The Reality-Based Rules of the Workplace. All of this is fine, except that now they are trying to use what they have learned and transform it into a new theme. The theme is…. incredibly negative at face value and will make little to no sense for those who didn’t attend the training (the other 30 people in the office.) It goes like this:

    No pain no gain!
    Ditch the drama!
    Own your shit!

    Am I wrong to think that this is inappropriate? We are in a temporary location as our building is being remodeled so staff morale hasn’t been the best for a while. There is definitely some tension already, so this theme is not going to go over well. I get the premise because I know a little bit about Cy Wakeman’s book and intent, but not everyone does. Suggestions about pushing back?

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      I’ve worked at places that give all ( or all applicable) employees the book when this happens, and that’s probably what they should do so people have the context. Because those terms sound obnoxious without the content.

    2. KayEss*

      I had to look up Wakeman and the book and I can’t say I’m impressed. At best, it seems like the kind of self-help advice that IMO really doesn’t work presented from the top down. Pretty much everything I saw, including your office’s distilled version, reads like “shut up, smile, and nod along if you want to keep your job” when it’s coming from your boss(es).

      But maybe I’m just “emotionally expensive” (gag).

    3. Earthwalker*

      Sounds silly. But those rah-rah manager training classes tend to send everyone back all fired up. The fire dies in a few weeks as reality intervenes, enthusiasm wanes, and the platitudes begin to sound silly even to the attendees. If you speak up now you’ll be a Negative Nellie but if you let it go it will soon be forgotten.

  155. GRA*

    Reading through many of this week’s posts – just wanted to throw it out there that Mercury is in Retrograde yesterday through April 15. While I’m not a big believer in astrology/zodiac stuff, whenever this happens there really does seem to be a huge breakdown in communication everywhere in my life – including work! Tread carefully the next few weeks!!

  156. Thany*

    I asked Alison this question, but it’s been 3 months, so I thought I would ask the AAM community.

    Background information- my husband and I both work in non-profits (him in mental health while I’m in social work) and we network in similar circles. Although we live in a fairly large city, our networks run into each other occasionally. At my previous employer, I worked with my team leader (let’s call Arya) and my coworker (who we’ll call Janet) and they did not get along. Janet is a great worker but she struggled working with Arya. It seems their personalities just clashed. Janet left for a new job last January for a position at a facility my husband had worked at previously.

    Since then Arya has been promoted to program manager, a position I don’t think she is suited for since she is very micromanaging and not good at developing the talents of her staff. At a social event, I met a friend of my husband’s who happened to have worked with Arya previously and now works with Janet. She mentioned to me in passing how Arya had reached out to her to specifically mention how Janet was very difficult to work with! Luckily the friend mentioned she has not seen any problems working with Janet and did not seem to give Arya’s word any weight. (For the record, Janet did not use Ayra as a reference. There was no reason for Ayra to reach out to her network).

    Although I have also moved on to a new job, I am still friends with Janet and would like to catch up with her soon. I am also horrified with how Arya used her network to bad mouth a coworker which really could have jeopardized her new job! On one hand, I feel obligated to tell Janet about Arya’s betrayal in case they work together again (they still work with similar clientele in the same industry). But on the other hand, it was in the past and seems to have no bearing on Janet’s position. What are your thoughts?

    1. Whoa*

      I can see this from both sides. On one hand, Janet deserves a heads up that Arya is trying to make things difficult for her. Luckily her new supervisor didn’t rely too heavily on what she said. In the opposite corner though, it might drum up drama if you get involved and could potentially cause problems for you and Arya if she ever found out. This might be a situation where you shouldn’t say anything unless directly asked.

      1. Thany*

        I agree with both sides as well. However, I’m at a totally different non profit now and no longer working under Arya (although I potentially still could in the future since our fields are still similar). Do you think that still matters?

        2. Whoa*

          If she has any ability at all to badmouth you to others in the industry or sully your reputation (should she find out), I think it still matters. If anyone should say something, it’s the friend you mentioned who actually had the information and hadn’t seen anything wrong with Janet’s performance. As for your place in all this, I agree with what fposte says- not your circus, not your monkeys.

          1. Thany*

            Both of you are right. It’s not my circus. And I never thought of how it might hurt me professionally. I guess I feel an obligation because Janet and I are still friends. But I agree. It’s not worth mentioning unless it comes up.
            Thank you both for responding!

    2. Millennial Lawyer*

      Hmmm I wouldn’t get involved on this one. Unless you knew that it was negatively affecting her performance, I would maybe err on the side of letting her know, but since you know that there’s no real issue, the only thing you’d be doing is getting yourself involved in their drama, which may be bad for *you* professionally.

      1. Thany*

        I never thought how it might affect me professionally if Arya found out. Thank you for pointing it out!

  157. stej*

    I’m trying to decide whether or not to apply for an internal position.

    I’ve already applied for external positions, but this feels weightier because I’m 95% sure I’d get an interview and then my boss would know and it might be a thing.

    The reason why I want to leave is because I’m starting to grow really tired of the work that I’m doing. Right now, I probably find 20% interesting and 80% either mildly annoying or boring. The new role is not 100% what I want, but it’ll put me in front of new data, new challenges, and give me a chance to grow in a new direction as an analyst. (I want to move towards predictive modeling and the like, but it’s too far away from current skill set to make the jump internally. There aren’t any internal postings that I’d qualify for, however much I’d love to stay within the company.)

    The last few days I’ve just been wavering and wavering. I know my job so well now, and I know all the things that I could change and update and make better for the department, but the base output that straight up needs to get done will not be changing, so all the things I want to do will always be lower priority than the stuff I find incredibly boring. It sucks.

  158. Anon for this*

    How common is it to not care much about things like professional development specifically related to your current position?

    I like my job, but my current position definitely doesn’t feel like a “vocation.” I like the field I’m in and the people I work with, and I care about doing my job well and being reliable and a good asset. But my job is administrative support, and I don’t really see that as my career. I do training sometimes that will help me perform specific responsibilities of mine, but when it comes to professional development classes and events, I’m interested in other things that relate to the type of work I enjoy doing, like web management.

    Recently, there’s been some discussion about providing more support and opportunities for professional development for people who are in positions like mine, and I was a little taken aback by how uninterested I am in the sort of things people are suggesting. I can’t see myself voluntarily attending or being excited about a weekend conference or talk about admin work in my field.

    Is this weird? I assume the people who seem interested in this genuinely are, and that they see themselves in this type of career more than I do. But I guess I feel… immature? Like I’m supposed to muster up an interest.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think you need to be interested in doing it in your free time, but if it’s something your company is paying you for, if the professional development would actually help you do your job better (and not just waste your time), and if you foresee yourself doing this type of work for at least the next two years, you should probably do it.

  159. Clarice Fitzpatrick*

    I know this is a simple situation I’m probably overthinking but I’m relatively young and this is the first time I’ve encountered this situation.

    So we have a cafe and deli in my workplace. A couple times I’ve been asked by people if I want anything from these places when they’re going to get a coffee or something similar. I have no idea what the etiquette for this. I’ve always said no thanks because I’m truly not craving anything but also because I have no cash on me and can’t quickly repay them. If I had said yes, what’s the expectation on paying them back. (I’ve been asked this by a coworker of equal status and a supervisor.)

    1. Millennial Lawyer*

      Usually asking if you want anything – at least in my opinion – is just a way of being friendly. It’s not truly expected that you get something, so definitely never feel pressured to come up with something you want. It sounds like it’s just office culture to ask as a courtesy.

      However, it’s totally normal to be like “yes – you mind picking me up X? i don’t have cash on me now but i can get some tomorrow!” with your peer level you could even ask if they have venmo/cash app/etc.

      1. Whoa*

        Yeah, this is pretty much the case. I always offer to my supervisor, even though she’s only ever taken me up on it twice in two years. Additionally, you can also answer with “Actually I could use X, do you mind if I go down to the cafe with you?” if you don’t feel comfortable having someone pick you something up (or you don’t have cash/only use a debit card). That’s super common around here.

    2. Irene Adler*

      You should expect to pay them directly when the food is brought to you.

      However, if you clear with them when they ask, that you will pay them tomorrow, then that’s okay as well. And do so first thing the next day.

      1. The Person from the Resume*

        Yes. They’re offering, take them up on it if you want, but I would clear owing them money another day before requesting that they pick something up for you.

    3. Stranger than fiction*

      Oof, yeah, I’d say it could go 50/50 either way. They could just be asking if you want them to pick you up something for connemeice sake, or be intending to treat.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Depends on the item and your relationship. I’ve paid people back immediately and also been told, “Don’t worry about it, it’s on me.”

    5. Overworked and Underpaid*

      My office regularly uses Venmo for these types of things. I rarely carry cash, but my Venmo feed is now entirely made up of in and out payments with my coworkers.

    6. SophieChotek*

      What “Another Librarian” said – if you really do want something but don’t have cash, just be upfront and say “I would love X, but don’t have any cash, but will you pay you back tomorrow”. They might just say “oh don’t worry about it, my treat”, or just be like “sure, pay me back when you can.” As long as you are prompt about repaying (and not that person who never has cash and never repays) I think it’s fine.

      But if you really don’t want something, just decline in a nice way — most people just ask to be nice themselves.

    7. Clarice Fitzpatrick*

      Thank you to everyone who answered! I’m glad to know my cautious instincts were mostly right. (I would’ve been mortified to assume a treat when there was none.)

  160. Alina*

    Does anyone have advice for someone who feels they have to find a job by a certain time? I’ve been unemployed for a year now and even finding temp work has been difficult and I’m at the end of my rope. I’m honestly thinking of giving up and just resigning myself to the fact I’ll never become good at anything and that my university degree is a waste. My job search is pretty much stalled and even with a few one off gigs here and there, it’s not enough and I honestly don’t feel like job hunting anymore when employers don’t call me back after being interviewed and if I do, I’m always passed over for someone who has more experience than I do. :/

    1. .*

      I felt (and still sometimes feel) exactly the same way. After I graduated it took me 1.5 years to land a job (you have few gigs, that’s more than I ever had so you’re already getting ahead). It was definitely a hard time, especially when I started to compare to (younger) peers who got jobs, promotions, a house,… essentially moving on while I felt stuck. Not being where I should be, I laid this pressure on me of getting a job by X months, and X kept moving back.

      So my advice is get unstuck. There were a few things/thoughts that helped me (and yes I know most of them are easier said than done, but still trying is better than nothing)
      – Get your mind in the present, it’s the only time that matters. Accept it, don’t lose energy by fighting what you can’t change, no shoulds. It is what it is. You can’t change the past, only learn from it and move on. And the future is just in your head, it’s not set, you can only work on today. Tomorrow is tomorrow.
      – Limit your job search and thoughts about your career, it will eat your whole time/life if you don’t. Set a few hours (or a few days in the week) aside for active searching/applying and stick to that. Finding a good balance takes some trial and error.
      – Learn new things, job related or not, follow MOOCs, language classes, dance lessons, anything to get that brain rewired. Get out the house.
      – Stop comparing, seriously it is unproductive and gets you down. Your path is your path, just focus on your own growth.
      – Take care of yourself, whatever that means for you (for me it was hiking a lot, clearing my head), good food, good people (I forced myself to meet my friends regularly even when I didn’t feel like it).
      – It takes only one person to give you a chance. One chance, that’s all. So be it by luck, networking, just keep trying. I do not know the English proverb equivalent, so literal translation it is: To never have shot is always a miss. Every day you get closer to your new job!
      Though I definitely did not do/believe them every day or got consistent at them, it’s the small things. Repeating them every day, trying new things.

      Good luck, it will work out. If nothing I always thought about statistics (they never lie) The chance that you’ll never become good at anything is so much smaller than finding a job where you can learn and grow and will move you to the next, even if it’s not in a straight path, onward and upward!
      This post is probably a bit rambly, it’s past midnight here but this question hit home so I wanted to put my 2 cents in.

      1. Alina*

        Thank you so much. I’ve always put pressure on myself even since elementary school (a distraction from thinking about being bullied) all the way until I graduated university. It’s kind of hard to do certain things because of health problems and limited funds (especially since my neighbourhood sucks and if I wanna go anywhere worth visiting, I have to take the bus, so it’s a minimum cost). But I will definitely keep your advice in mind and it was nice to hear from someone that’s been through a similar situation before. Thank you.

  161. BF*

    I need some help and suggestions in picking a new computer monitor. I do graphics heavy GIS and mapping. What specs should I be looking for?
    I would like two but would two 30 inch monitors be too much? I have a big desk so space isn’t an issue. This is the first time I’ve gotten to pick one out. Usually I have to use whatever the IT guy gives me. Thanks.

    2. Menacia*

      We have users here who do heavy GIS and mapping and provided them with two 22″ monitors and they are happy. If you want to go a little bigger, get 24″, not sure if the 30″ is necessary but definitely get two. If possible, you should try to get some specs around the best type of monitor to purchase for GIS-related work and supply those to your IT dept, also confirm the corresponding video drivers are added to your computer when your monitors are installed.

    3. NoGhosting*

      The computer nerd in me says get the two 30″ monitors just to be the coolest person in the office. It would be like your own computer fort! Who doesn’t want that?!

  162. MassholeMarketer*

    When you’re offered a job, while discussing benefits, is it okay to ask if raises (even cost of living raises) are typical every year? The company I’m at now does them but I’m afraid that if I get offered a better job somewhere else that they won’t have something like this.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think instead of asking if they’re typical, you might want to ask what the procedure is for getting raises and how often they’ve been awarded in the past.

      1. Fabulous*

        I disagree. I think asking specifically about C.O.L. raises would be a good question. If asking about raises in general it might be misconstrued that you’re looking to get merit raises right off the bat.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Sure, you can also throw in an extra “And of course you probably have cost-of-living increases every year, too” and see if the reaction is an immediate “Yes, of 3%” or a raised eyebrow and a stutter followed by a “Well…”

  163. ReBecCa from TribeCa*

    Am I some sort of savant? They are changing the parking situation where I work and HR sent out an email this week asking for each employee to provide their car license plate number and asked for responses by Monday. I answered back right away (within the hour) and when I ran into the HR assistant in the break room later on, she commented I “didn’t need to run out and check”. She felt it a bit weird that I knew my plate number from memory. So I would like to ask how many of you actually know your plate number without looking? And how many of yo don’t? I am very curious to find out how anal I am. :-)

    1. Nan*

      I did not, until I got personalized plates. I can never remember my driver’s license number, either.

    2. Stranger than fiction*

      I know mine too. To me it’s like knowing your social security number or drivers license number or any of those types of things.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Me too. My previous plate number did not lend itself to a mnemonic so I never remembered it. My current one is awesome because the mnemonic is somewhat work related. I also liked having a vanity plate for exactly this reason – I always knew it.

        I used to be amazing at memorizing phone numbers, but now I don’t even know my husband’s cell and he’s had that same number for the almost 12 years we’ve been together. Smart phones have ruined my memory! :-)

    4. LadyKelvin*

      I used to know mine but I’ve been changing states every 2-3 years and can’t memorize my plate that fast. I’ll eventually learn mine since I’m not planning on moving again for a long time.

    5. Laura H*

      I don’t have a car, but I know my folks’ ones. Can’t rattle em off on demand, but I know em.

    7. Une Quebecoise*

      I know mine. Also know most of my close friends and family. Oh and any that I happen to stare at too long in traffic. But I have a weird brain.
      Still can’t remember to pick up the dry cleaning though, which would be a far more helpful skill.

    8. Mielle*

      I know mine! Most of the parking meters around here require you to enter your license plate instead of putting a receipt on the dashboard, so I did it once and never forgot my plate number after that!

    10. Lillian Gilbreth*

      I know mine off the top of my head, and I haven’t even had the car for almost a year (had to leave it with my folks when I moved out – too expensive to hang onto it in my new city!) I don’t know my DL#, but I also know my social security (duh) and passport numbers off the top of my head.

      So I don’t think you’re weird, but I’m pretty anal myself lol.

    11. Grad Student*

      I know mine, but partly because my local street parking (which I use occasionally) has changed to a pay-by-plate system and the pay boxes are sometimes out of sight of the parking spaces :)

    12. Brownie*

      I used to memorize my license plate up until I got a smartphone. Now I just take a picture of it (on the car, license plate theft is high here so it’s good to have that picture just in case) and never delete it so I can look it up when needed. That’s actually saved me a lot of annoyance in the past when dealing with car insurance claims.

    13. NoGhosting*

      I know mine but I try to make a point of memorizing important things that I have to fill out on paperwork sometimes that could be potentially inconvenient to search for in the future.

    14. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I know both of ours, and I still remember the last one before that, too, but that’s mostly because the garage we use uses the plate number to keep track of their records, so they always ask for it. But then, I know my partner’s SSN by heart…and they don’t! :D

    15. Amber Rose*

      I only learned mine recently, when our city went to a digital parking system. I don’t have to display anything on my dash, just have to enter my license plate number.

      Otherwise I wouldn’t know it. No reason to.

    16. Oxford Coma*

      I know mine. Remembering random strings of numbers is my party trick. I know every license plate my family has ever had, and every phone number as well. Just don’t ask me to do anything actually useful with numbers–I can’t “math” for crap.

    17. SophieChotek*

      I know the letters; I always forget the numbers. (I think I know them, but I always have to go check.)

    18. Lily Evans*

      I never had mine memorized (I’m terrible at remembering numbers) but I had a photo of it saved on my phone! I’d run into enough situations where I randomly needed it (half of them would be when I was trying to fill out paperwork at night for some reason) that I decided to just keep it on hand.

    19. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I know mine. I look at it every day, sometimes several times a day, so I’m not surprised I remember it.

    20. Not That Jane*

      Not only mine, but also my husband’s- on both current and previous cars – and an ex-boyfriend’s (whom I haven’t seen for 5+ years).

      But I’m weirdly obsessed with license plates. :D

    21. Canadian Teapots*

      I’ve been able to memorize all of my licence plates, and when I was a kid I used to make a bit of a game out of memorizing my dad’s truck plates as well as plates of people who lived nearby. :)

    23. Middle School Teacher*

      I know mine! I made a mnemonic to remember it. (Plus I’ve had it for probably 15 years. Plus we have those meter machines here where you type in your license plate and use your credit card to pay.)

      I know my social insurance number off by heart too. Mnemonic there too :)

    26. Ron McDon*

      Not at all anal or weird!

      I know mine, my husband’s and most of our family/friends/neighbours number plates …. my brain just seems to remember things containing numbers (Reg plates, phone numbers, NI no., tax reference no., postcodes).

      People whose brains don’t work like that are often surprised when I remember their phone number, or know their car by the number plate. But it’s a cool quirk to have, I think, and so useful!

  164. Levy Tate*

    After 9+ years as a stay-at-home parent, I’m job hunting again. I got a degree (graduated in 2016 – online with UMUC if it matters) while I was raising the kids and now that they’re in school, I want to reenter the rat race.

    I’ve seen what someone with my skills, experience, and education is worth in the job market, but… am I worth less since I’ve been out of the field for so long? It’s administrative work, if that makes a difference.

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      I’d think there’d be a range, so you’d maybe have to accept the lower end of the range for not having recent experience, but I’m sure others here may have experience with your situation.

    2. Anon for This*

      How did you determine the market rate? Did it take into account experience? If it did then you are probably not going to earn the same sort of rate. But, a lot of it depends on the work and the organization.

      1. Levy Tate*

        Honestly, just google search and went through a few job search/recruiter specific sites trying to piece together a picture. I was trying to get a range so I don’t go too high, but I also don’t want to undersell myself and end up accepting an offer that’s too low just because I don’t know any better… but maybe that “too low” would be all I’m worth with a gap like that?

        This is my conundrum.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          It’s tough, but I do think that you should expect to be on the low end of the ranges you see. Your experience is nearly ten years old (if I’m understanding your timeline correctly); as a hiring manager, I wouldn’t be as confident in your experience as I would with someone with a similar level of experience who was doing the work yesterday.

          1. Levy Tate*

            The time I spent working on my degree is irrelevant, then? Not arguing, I’m just curious. My Office skills are still pretty sharp. I hadn’t spent 10 years idle (not that it’s idle, but you know what I mean)

            1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              No, definitely not irrelevant. Your degree will be powerful on your resume. But it’s not the same as if you were working during those years. (If you were hiring someone to prepare your taxes, would you pay the same amount to someone who is currently working as a tax preparer vs. someone with the same amount of experience but who last prepared taxes in 2008?)

              I don’t mean to be harsh, and I’m sorry if I’m sounding like a jerk. All I’m saying is that it’s a harder row to hoe, and part of the reality of that might be taking a lower salary.

  165. AeroEngineer*

    US Government Folks, a question for you.

    How long does the hiring process take for a public trust clearance position (give or take)?

        1. Levy Tate*

          That’s if they’ve already interviewed and are hiring you. If you’re just in the search phase, that’s a whole other thing. In the time it took me to apply to the IRS and for them to get back to me… then get an interview was over 4 months. But once you get to the interview/offer phase it goes faster.

          1. AeroEngineer*

            Ohhhhhh, then it is way more reasonable. I found a position which I am qualified for and actually think would be a good fit (finally), but the earliest earliest I could think about starting is 4 months, ideally a month or two or so after that to allow for preparation and moving etc etc etc.

            Applying to the FAA this weekend, so maybe it will work out.

            1. Finally a Fed*

              Best of luck with the FAA! … I still have pending applications on USAJobs for them from over two years ago :/. I also mentioned in another thread that if you’re applying for a Headquarters/DC job, there’s an issue with disabled veterans applying and drowning out the cert lists even though they aren’t qualified (e.g., the job wants aero/computer/etc engineers but they only meet the program management requirements but still get through cert).

              For my agency, from the time I applied until I was notified I passed certification it was about three months, I wasn’t finally given an offer until about three months after that, and due to the holidays my first official day was two months after that. So from application to hire it was almost 8 months.

              1. AeroEngineer*

                I know that feeling. At this count, I have 3 applications still open at the NTSB and one with the FAA, starting from 2 years ago.

                Luckily this position is not at DC/Headquarters, so maybe I will have some better luck. As well, I have finally finally found some similar positions in industry in the last days (they come up very infrequently for lower levels), so I am not hanging everything on USAJobs anymore.

                I am probably one of the few people who hope that it takes the full 6-8 months, so that I can get everything in order here. Also good to know that you were able to defer your start date two months due to holidays, that was also something I was wondering about, as I will need a bit of time to decompress from this job (maybe take vacation) and move, and I would prefer to start after the holiday season if the timeline makes it that far.

                1. Finally a Fed*

                  Not sure where you’re looking or what area of aero you’re looking into, but I highly recommend networking – I see a lot of hiring into entry level positions that never get advertised in industry. Second, I’ve seen Honeywell and Boeing advertising for entry level aero positions lately. Finally, the FAA and NASA received additional aero funding in the omnibus bill for various projects and so it is expected they’ll be hiring more positions soon.

                2. AeroEngineer*

                  Yea, I have started now to really network as much as I possibly can, looking now at UTC since a good number of people from my bachelors seem to end up there. I was hoping to go back to Airbus (I did an internship there), but it looks like I need to drastically extend the locations and companies I am considering. I have a couple of applications in, and a couple more in the pile, as well as networking as hard as I can (without alerting my current company).

                  Hopefully it works out, as now it is the end of the weekend, and I am already dreading the start of the week. I though I had more time before I would feel this, but it has been a sudden decline. Oh well…

          2. Canadian Teapots*

            This reminds me of the time I applied for a provincial government job which didn’t require any experience, just an examination you had to take. Well, I needed a new job within a week, and a small clerical company got back to me and wanted me in for an interview. Went in, got *that* job.

            Literally three, four months later the government job HR person finally got back to me and said “would you like to come in for the civil service exam?” and out loud, I just said, “Thank you, but I already have a new job and would like to decline, thank you for your time, etc etc.”

            I was like in my head, “wow. Who can wait four months for a job like that????”

    2. EmilyAnn*

      Depends if the security office will give you an interim. It took about 4 weeks for my interim to come through, just had my BI today and I’ve been in the role for 9-10 weeks. I once started a job in November with an interim and had the BI the next May. So the answer is… it depends.

  166. WellRed*

    We are consolidating our office space in the next few months, which means we are all going to have a lot less space and I am losing my very nice cube with a window. None of us are happy.

  167. HisGirlFriday*

    I started a new job just over two months ago. Among my other duties, I am the Intern Manager. Thanks to Alison’s excellent archives, I have scripts for two of the problems I need to address this week/next week:

    1. Dress code: Both of our interns are female, as am I, which will make the conversation about the shirt-pretending-it-was-a-dress-and-desperately-struggling-to-cover-everything *slightly* less awkward.

    2. Time management: Both of our interns have felt like they can (a) not show up or (b) change their hours without telling me and/or the directors of the departments for which they work.

    And now my new problem: I have received an internship application for the summer from a student, but it was sent in on his behalf by his former teacher. Said student is a class of 2020 graduate at a local state school — so at least a sophomore. This former teacher asked for the application, and then submitted it on behalf of the student. What do I say to him and the student about how totally weird and unprofessional this is?

    1. Anon for This*

      Could you thank the teacher and then tell the teacher that you look forward to receiving the application from the student?

      I suspect this is a teacher trying to be helpful. And some intern programs the program sends the applications that they have received to the employer. We have interns from a local private college and the head of the intern program sends us the candidate applications (as they have a screening process first).

    2. Fabulous*

      I’d reply back with something like, “While I appreciate you forwarding me Jane’s application, I cannot accept it unless she submits it herself. Please have Jane reach out directly with her application materials by X date.”

  168. LAM*

    I have a phone interview in an hour. I wasn’t nervous until about ten minutes ago. Now I’m mildly freaking out.

    There’s a lot of people at the new (potential) company assuming I’m going to get the job. I just have to not bomb the interview. No pressure or anything (/sarcasm).

  169. Fabulous*

    Has anyone successfully left a job they love for a seemingly better opportunity? A couple weeks ago I applied for a nonprofit job that seems like it fits me perfectly. The application deadline was today and they’re finally going to be looking at resumes next week and contacting people for interviews.

    The problem is I’m working right now at a job I actually like. I really only landed here because I needed to pay bills and they wanted to give me money, but I love my coworkers and this is basically the best boss I’ve ever had. I feel SO guilty for even considering leaving after only 2 years. Everyone on my team is going on 10 years with the company, and I imagined being here AT LEAST 5 years before even considering a change. But then this job came along… it’s a little closer to home (and considerably closer to where the SO and I are looking to move in the next few years), chances are that it offers much better pay (of course they didn’t post the range, but the 990 is promising), and it’s actually in the field I want to be in, doing what I do really well! I’m super torn!! I can’t even imagine what would happen if I left my job. This is insane and I’m getting increasingly anxious about the possibilities.

    I should hopefully know something more next week…

    1. Robin Sparkles*

      I did- although now that I am in my better paying, better supported, more challenging job (also closer to home and better leadership) – I recognize that I liked my old job and felt secure but it was by no means the right job for me and there was dysfunction that I do not deal with here. So go in with eyes open and do NOT feel bad if it is the right move. Your reasons are the best reasons for leaving.

    2. Undine*

      You don’t have to make any decisions unless you get an offer. Spend your time thinking about the questions you want to ask if you get an interview. Remember you will be interviewing them, and you can try and find out if it will be a good change for you. It’s all pie in the sky right now.

      Also look at this as an illuminating exercise in what your hopes and dreams are. Right now you are projecting your ideal job on this description. Chances are the reality is different. But if it excites you this much, that says something about where you want to be in the long term, and you can work towards that somehow. This will not be the last chance you have.

  170. Snark*

    No official offer yet, but it looks like I’ve been selected for a federal position right in town, which should start before I’m laid off! Best possible outcome. And my wife just got offered a new job and a $10k raise.

    And I’m leaving for Barcelona to eat pork and ogle architecture. Good week.

    1. grace*

      Hey, congrats, that’s so exciting! Have a ton of fun in Barca without the weight of a job hunt hanging over ya – I’ve never been, but everyone I know who has absolutely adores it.

  171. voposama*

    I was promoted into a new role a month and a half ago. We’re still trying to fill my old job (which is turning out much harder than I had hoped). Since it’s a small company, and I’m the only one who really knows my old job, I end up with many of those tasks on top of the new role and the recruiting I’m doing to try and fill my old job. I am stretched very thin, and I have a couple of huge project deadlines coming up.

    Any advice on how to balance everything?o.

  172. Guitar Hero*

    Applied for a job at a company that cites “The Responsive Method” as one of it’s core values. That was two months ago. Didn’t even get a reply to acknowledge my application was received.

    So much for responsiveness.

  173. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

    I got a weird email yesterday that’s still making me laugh and scratch my head – feel free to share weird interactions you’ve had at work too!

    I was working with another department to track down a third party contractor in a different state who was trying to have a package delivered to a building that doesn’t exist (yet). When we finally found someone who could get in touch with the guy, his response to me sharing tracking information and a phone number for FedEx was to say “I appreciate your help with this… more than most would.”
    What does that even mean? Why would he appreciate tracking information SO MUCH MORE than other people? It makes me feel like I helped him get some illicit materials delivered to a sketchy construction site.

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think that’s what he means. He means you *helped* more than most people would, which seems an accurate assessment.

      1. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

        Oh my goodness, that makes SO much more sense. I even showed the email to my colleagues and they read it the same way I was.

        1. fposte*

          Grammatically, it definitely wouldn’t read that way! It’s close enough to verbal pleasantries in my region that I recognized it; I think if he’d said it aloud intonation would have made it clearer.

    2. Environmental Gone Public Health Gone Back Environmental*

      I agree with fposte’s comment, but the guy definitely didn’t word it the best in the email. I read it the same way you did at first and was a little skeezed out.

  174. JB (not in Houston)*

    A month or several months ago, there was a discussion in the comments (in response to a question) about whether speaking patterns can hurt women’s perception in the workplace, and several of us made the point that women’s speech patterns can picked on more than men’s. Shortly after that, I came across this article and thought it might be of interest to some of you. I’ll put the link in the next comment.

  175. Blah*

    So, I’ve ended up in a slightly odd situation where I’m not sure how to proceed. I’m getting my BA degree in geography soon, and I might need to move out of my extremely expensive city as I start my career. Well, the reason I live in an expensive city is because I don’t know how to drive. I’ve spent a good chunk of money on professional lessons and am nowhere near ready for the exam, and I don’t have the option of learning from friends or family. Yet I’m decent on a motorcycle. I passed the basic rider’s course without any trouble, and in my state you’re allowed to have a motorcycle only driver’s license (it isn’t common and the DMV clerk was rather confused, but it’s legal). A lot of jobs I’m looking at in GIS are out in open space preserves and such where there’s no transit, and list a valid operator’s license as a requirement. I’m uncertain where that leaves me. Many of these jobs require you to drive between multiple parks in a day. This I can do. There really isn’t any terrain in my region that a smaller Honda Rebel can’t safely handle. It might look a little odd to employers, but it would work. The issue is, I can’t tell if driving a department pickup or carrying large amounts of equipment in a personal vehicle is a requirement, and that might be an issue. I don’t know when I should disclose my license situation or ask about these factors, or how it’s going to look.

    1. The curator*

      As a person who go my driver’s license at 54, I am going to be very directive. Get your driver’s license. If you are in NYC, learn in an “outer borough” Not being able to drive a car will limit your options and it seems that your degree and job prospects require it. One would not think my job requires the ability to drive but it does. It doesn’t require that I own a car, just the ability to drive one. If you know how to drive “I can’t tell if driving a department pickup or carrying large amounts of equipment in a personal vehicle is a requirement,” this ceases to be an issue.
      I do say that I am a new driver and therefore am uncomfortable driving long distances in a truck or van and have others do that.

      1. Blah*

        I’ll get a license eventually, but it’s going to be a while, whereas I need to be finding a job now. So, I do have to deal with this situation as it stands.

    2. Environmental Gone Public Health Gone Back Environmental*

      I think if you’re working in the field, it’s a pretty safe assumption that you may at some point have to drive an employer’s vehicle, which is most likely going to be a truck/SUV/otherwise not a motorcycle. Geography may have equipment too that isn’t going to even fit on a motorcycle.

      It’s going to be way easier for you to navigate this by getting a driver’s license. If you already have a motorcycle license, I can’t imagine it’s going to be that difficult getting your generic car’s license.

      Also – any state agency or county agency I’ve worked for has required me to drive a state/county vehicle, and no equipment could go in my car for liability reasons.

      1. Blah*

        I do plan to get a driver’s license, but it’s extremely difficult. Even after several hours on the road, I consistently cannot figure out how close I am to the curb, where I am in relation to the other side of the line, or when I should and shouldn’t get closer to the line, and I easily miss things on the road (cars feel like being trapped in a cage). Being offset to the left royally messes me up, too, and I still don’t have operating a steering wheel down. I don’t have any of these problems on two wheels. I easily know where in the lane I am, I’m not caged and can actually notice what’s around me, and countersteering is natural in a way a wheel just isn’t. I need a lot more practice that I don’t have a lot of money to pay for right now.

        1. Driving School Dropout*

          Hmmmm….I might be way off base, but have you ever had a comprehensive eye exam with an ophthalmologist? If you are having a lot of trouble with spatial relationships, I would rule out vision problems first. It might be an issue with depth perception and there might be exercises you can do to improve it. Being on a bike might allow you to more easily compensate because there’s more input about your position relative to other objects.
          If your vision is fine, I have no helpful suggestions other than properly adjust your side mirrors and use them, and then lots of practice.

          1. Blah*

            Oh, that’s very likely it. I have a nearsided eye and a farsided eye, and my glasses have vastly different lens thicknesses. I’ve always had some issues with depth perception. You can’t tell on the frames I use now, but on my old glasses I had a thin lens and a coke bottle lens.

            1. Blah*

              Though, I’m also a pretty seasoned urban cyclist, so it could also be that bicycles are very natural to me, so the vehicle that operates on very similar principles is easier to learn.

            2. Driving School Dropout*

              Aha! Yup, I have one very nearsighted eye and one typical eye – one coke bottle lens and one that’s basically clear. It caused me minor difficulties because I didn’t know one eye needed correction until I was in college. My brain defaulted to using the “good” eye and more or less ignored my nearsighted eye without my being consciously aware. When I did finally get glasses, I had to do exercises, like sliding beads up and down a string while using my weaker eye to retrain my brain to use both eyes and properly perceive depth.
              But also, it doesn’t sound like you’ve had all that much practice in a car yet. It’s a chicken and egg problem if you live in a city and don’t already drive, but I think your skills will improve a lot with practice. Canadian Teapots below has great suggestions for mirror adjustment. It seems daunting at first keeping track of everything, but it does eventually become habit.

        2. Canadian Teapots*

          If it helps, when I was a younger driver I didn’t have very good “curb perception” either, and it really took a long time before I could pretty well consistently parallel park and get my car within the legally required 30 cm. (It definitely doesn’t help if you’re used to smaller vehicles and then use a larger one)

          Two suggestions:

          1. Get a car with adjustable mirrors. When parallel parking, angle the right side mirror down so it’s facing more of the curb, or line, or whatever you’ve got to line up against. Then check your car’s placement as you park.
          2. If you can swing it, try to get a car that has a rear-view screen that shows you what’s behind the car when you’re backing up. It’s a huge stress relief sometimes when you have a car that has one so you can squeeze into a tight spot.

          We live in a world where technology definitely makes things easier to assist drivers in doing what they need to do with cars! But be aware that some of the skills you want to cultivate only come with repeated experience and time. There’s a reason a lot of jurisdictions now have graduated licencing and that it can take six months at a driving school instead of just a couple of months – driving really is a thing you sometimes have to just ease into.

          Good luck! Hope this all helps.

    3. The Person from the Resume*

      I believe a requirements for a “valid operator’s license” means that you will be required to drive a company/agency vehicle as part of your job (or possibly your personal vehicle between sites). They won’t list that if you simply need a way to commute to work because there are alternatives. I think you need to disclose early in the process like in your first phone screening or before the interview.

      Also I don’t know why you can drive a motorcycle but not a car, but I think this is definitely going to limit your job prospects so I recommend that you do everything in your power to get a vehicle license ASAP.

      1. Blah*

        Well, one posting specifically called out that the applicant needs to be able to work at several different sites, and needs reliable personal transportation because they won’t always know where they’ll be told to go work until shortly ahead of time, or they’ll have to split their time between different sites. If the issue is just that I sometimes need to work at site A, sometimes B, sometimes C, and sometimes D and E on the same day, I can see a bike working.

        1. Pollygrammer*

          A lot of places will use “personal transportation” to mean “we’re also assuming you’re going to be able to transfer stuff.” You can’t take boxes on a motorcycle, and I don’t think I’ve ever had a job that didn’t at some point involve transporting boxes.

          1. Environmental Gone Public Health Gone Back Environmental*

            ^^ This, again.

            I really don’t think you have many other options other than at some point soon getting your license. If it’s field work, you’re going to have a very high chance of needing to drive a company car, or transport equipment that won’t fit on a motorcycle. There are office GIS jobs, at least in the major/even some small cities where I have lived. I don’t think there’s a magic fix for you here. Previous commenters have good points with checking with an opthamologist, and practice, practice, practice (which, if you can’t with friends or family and lessons are admittedly very expensive….I don’t know what to tell you).

            In the meantime, you’re going to have to be upfront with not being able to take company non-motorcycle vehicles, and not being able to transport most field equipment. Ask about it in the interview. There might be a way they can help you work around it, there might not. But requiring a valid generic driver’s license is going to be a very common requirement, *especially* if you’re doing field work or the job requires travel.

  176. The Returner*

    Not sure if anybody will get this far down but, if you do, hi! Thanks for stopping by!

    I’m due to return from maternity leave soon, after having been off for around 4 months. Anybody have any experience with this?

    And, at risk of sounding like ‘that’ person, anybody got any tips for handling concerns that my maternity cover might have been better than me and that my return will be marked with eye rolls of ‘Not her again’?

    1. Robin Sparkles*

      I am not sure what your last paragraph means but I will answer the first. I returned from my maternity leave (also 4 months) back in the Fall and I found it to be a fairly smooth transition. But this is my second one so I felt better about what I needed mentally. 1) are you secure and set for daycare? Are you doing drop-off and pick-ups? These are things that will factor into the work-life balance. With daycare, you have to drop things and pick up your baby even if things go late. If your job is flexible- great! If not, factor that in now so you can be honest with the team. It does mean working more around that time. 2) in addition to drop-off and pick-up – your baby will get sick if s/he hasn’t been exposed to other kiddos or germs yet. That may mean as much as taking 1 day per week off because of daycare rules. Make sure your return allows for that – be honest and frank if you can work from home or not during those days where baby is sick. It was a huge eye opener for me.
      It will only happen for about a month or two but that can seem like a lot. Then the kid builds immunity and they hardly ever get sick :) 3) are you pumping? Make sure you account for that as well. The time to pump- set-up etc takes 30 minutes. I ended up pumping twice at work (I breast fed at home) and tapered it off to 1. It was the best solution for me but if you need more time, factor that into your day. There is a LOT of great information out there on hands-free pumping, time-saving tips like bringing several supplies to save washing time, and working while pumping. I also was able to wait an hour or two around meetings if I had to. This is and can be one of the hardest parts of returning to work for new moms because oftentimes you feel like you are not as good of a contributor because you are taking time to pump. But in a good office that supports you, it’s not a problem but I know that is not always the case. If you go in knowing how much you need and the time it takes, it can make a difference in how you approach it.

      Hope that helps!

      1. The Returner*

        Thanks – although I think I’m good on all of this. Workplace is ok with the ‘I’ll do whatever hours it takes to do my job but I won’t necessarily do them all at my desk and some of those hours might be at crazy-o-clock at night because I need to leave promptly for daycare’ way of working. The three most senior people I work with also happen to be parents (one of them to preschoolers) so also know the ‘my kid is going to get every bug going’ deal of daycare. And couldn’t breastfeed due to medical reasons so pumping is a non-issue.

        By way of background on the last paragraph – I kind of get the feeling my maternity cover is vying for my job, although I’m not sure if I’m just being paranoid or if that’s a justified concern. I’m in a close-knit industry so I’ve had it fed back to me that they’ve made some major changes to the way the role is done (although not so clear on how well they have gone down) and, while I wasn’t expecting everything to stand still while I was off, it almost feels like I’m going to be returning to a job that’s not what I signed up for and am either going to have to do my role in a way I don’t want to do or put up with comments like ‘Well, when X was here, we did this so we don’t want to do things your way anymore’.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I took about four months with each maternity leave, and the return was pretty smooth but I chalk that up to being in a slow moving industry. Logistics-wise, I agree with what Robin Sparkles wrote, especially the strict timing of drop offs and pick ups. If you can negotiate work from home time, that really helps.

      Both times I had a major project going that I was in charge of, and the person/people who took over for me as well as management were happy to see me come back. Of course in my case, the person covering for me in the first leave did basically nothing while I was gone. Not even basic stuff. (He was fired or quit on the spot a year later, no one really knows what happened there.)

      In the second case, there was so much work to do that having me back could only be helpful to the team, so that was nice. I don’t think anyone really wanted to be “me” for the project. I think (hope?) that will be a lot more like your situation. Things to keep in mind: Your covering person has only had four months to make changes and form an impression on the team. People tend to prefer the familiar (you) over significant change (the cover), even if some of those changes happen to be objectively better. And this short of a time period, it’s probably not easy to judge if the cover’s changes are in fact improvements in the long run. Keep in mind that you have the in-depth experience for that particular job and the cover really doesn’t. A fresh perspective can be useful but potentially short-sighted.

  177. NoWayJose617*

    Admittedly it’s been a while since I’ve last posted here. Is ranting permitted? If no, my apologies. If so, here goes:

    Why in the world would a temp agency send us a temp for a data entry position that can’t type because they have carpal tunnel? And more importantly, why did Temp not say anything until their third day?!

    We do not have enough work this person can do (hired “full time”). There’s only about 20 hours a week worth of work Temp can do for three different units, one of these units was already slightly overstaffed. Now Temp has to be trained by all of these three units. That also puts two units in an awkward position due to timing of workflow. Now current staff is supposed to do almost exclusively data entry work, which is a strain on their eyes and wrists.

    I’m sorry but I don’t find these accommodations reasonable.

    The sad thing is, as long as Temp shows up and doesn’t do intentially do anything destructive, we’re stuck with them until the end of the contract three months from now.

    1. Red Reader*

      So if the temp agency sent you a temp who can’t meet the needs of the position, why do you have to keep them? Isn’t that the advantage of temps?

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If the temp cannot perform the duties required, you shouldn’t have to keep them. That is the whole point of using temps. Call the agency, explain the situation, and ask for a replacement.

    3. NoWayJose617*

      Unfortunately this place is very reluctant to let go of temps. There were times we made the decision to let a temp go, and we never got a replacement. TPTB decided that “this is better than nothing.” I’ve had bad temps before and at times I thought it was worth the risk and other times I did not. This time I absolutely do not agree. This person’s stay here is going to be useless at best. Like I said, this temp is going to spend half their day idle, will require training from three different supervisors, and an awkward shifting of two units’ workflows. This person was supposed to go to a 100% data entry position. That hole is still vacant.

      I realize that this is going to require a ton of writeup explaining why we can’t make reasonable accommodations (and that’s likely part of the reluctancy here), but if we get a replacement it will be worth it. It’s just not reasonable for us to accommodate someone who can’t use a computer.

      1. Bea*

        WHAT? Are there no other temp agencies to work with? It seems like you’re all being taken for a ride by whatever agency you’re using. This is a data entry gig, I know it’s been difficult to find people to patch into places with an increase in permanent positions but this is blowing my mind.

        First of all it’s not at all abnormal for temp agencies to send whoever they pick off the top of a pile, they don’t care and do not screen properly, basically ever. This is why temp agencies are so poorly looked upon a lot of the times and it’s not always the employees fault in the end. They also will throw anyone they have at you because they need a job and you need a warm body and they get paid their fees.

        So your company is paying 3 months of a contact for nothing at all, my accounting and business management mind is screaming and pounding the table right now. I’m sorry you’re stuck with this failure of a company structure, you’re management team need to be replaced.

  178. writelhd*

    I had a client blow up at me yesterday, then send me and my boss a passive aggressive email today that ended with threatening a lawyer. My boss was at a conference and not able to answer, which I’d told him yesterday when he blew up at me and demanded a meeting with my boss, so today I looped boss in and told him the client was being difficult and threatening that I’d lost all ability to judge if any of my actions are helpful or hurting.

    I have a really hard time not obsessing over things like this. What I could have said different when talking to someone who is irrational, to not have made them angry, when probably I could not have done anything. How I still want to solve the guy’s problem and can’t let go of wanting to solve it, even when he’s so incoherent I am no longer certain he actually has a problem. I’ve already invested 30 days of energy into it and now my boss is involved and I still can’t fix it. How do you let go of problems you can’t solve?

    1. CM*

      In this situation, I think you should ask your boss for guidance — ask if you should even still be contacting the client directly (it sounds like maybe not?) and what your boss thinks you should be doing. If your boss says don’t do anything, listen.

  179. The curator*

    Japan!!!
    We leave this coming Thursday.
    Rail passes bought.
    Meetings scheduled
    Handouts shipped.
    Lectures- still working on the powerpoints.

    Work life balance- two days “taking the waters” two days, two hours outside Tokyo.

    Should I post my public lecture schedule here?
    Are there Japan AAMers who would like to say hello?

  180. School Psych*

    I had an interview today where the panel interviewing me did a number of unprofessional things. They were running behind and left me waiting for around 20 minutes. After the candidate before me left, they discussed what they liked and disliked about her. I could hear their conversation, even with the door closed because sound carried in their office. They then came out and told me they weren’t ready for me yet because 2 of the panel members needed to make a phone call. I am pretty sure there was no important phone call to make because again sound carried, so I could hear them having a personal conversation in the hallway, getting water and letting off steam. After they finally started the interview, one of the panel members left halfway through and was switched out for a different person that worked for the organization. I really wanted to walk out before that and not complete the interview, but I work in a very small field where many school administrators know each other. I felt like I was obligated to be really professional, even though they weren’t. Obviously, I am planning on withdrawing my candidacy. However, I am debating telling them how off-putting their behavior was. The organization is a newer special-education collaborative and I think they are going to have difficulty expanding, if they continue to act like this. Should I just let this go and write a generic withdrawing my candidacy e-mail, or should I give them more information on why I no longer want to be considered?

    1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I am a person who is obsessed with being on time and absolutely hates waiting, so I can understand why a 20 minute wait would be super annoying, but honestly, I don’t think it’s too egregious. The switcheroo of interviewers is weird. But really I don’t think anything that happens rises to the level of complaining about it. Well, except for maybe mentioning how sound carries in the office since as an educational org (especially one that deals in special ed) you want to make sure conversations can be kept confidential. However, that’s more of a “just thought you should know” instead of saying they were being unprofessional.

    2. Anonanonanon*

      I would not give them reasons. There is no benefit to you other than letting off steam.

    3. Former Govt Contractor*

      I don’t think anything they did is deal breaking. They obviously did not realize you could hear them talking about the previous candidate, and the rest of the stuff is pretty common. A bit inconsiderate but certainly nothing egregious.

      1. School Psych*

        Well I guess maybe it was not egregious, but it was definitely annoying. I asked for a slightly later interview time to accommodate my work schedule and was told it wasn’t possible and then was kept waiting until the time I had requested. I am feeling a little burnt out by my job search in different districts because there are so many hoops for candidates to jump through. 4-6 rounds with multiple panel interviews is standard. There isn’t a lot of consideration for the candidates time and how challenging it can be to discretely job search while employed.

  181. Trixie*

    Summer department retreat, any suggestions for a day of fun? Last year went really well, but we brought activities, food, etc with us to outdoors site away from office. This year, we’re thinking of something all inclusive with food and activities already available. I’m hoping to find an upscale bowling alley/arcade place that serves food.

    1. NoGhosting*

      Trampoline park potentially? They usually have a wide variety of things to do depending on where you are located.

      1. Anonamoose*

        Even if trampoline park DOES have a variety of activities that don’t involve bouncing on a trampoline, I can see the location and associated physical activity being off-putting to someone with physical limitations. Even someone who doesn’t considered themselves disabled but has a troublesome knee or hip is not going to be excited about bouncing around.
        The bowling alley/arcade sounds fun, though I also like the outdoor site. It’s probably more work planning the activities and food, but hanging out at an outdoor site is usually more of a “chill” atmosphere than bowling alley/arcade, which tend (to me) to be noisy, feel more crowded, and the competitive nature of the games sometimes brings out the worst side of people (myself included…never challenge me to air hockey). My opinion might also be colored by the fact that the weather here has kept me doing outdoor activities waaaaayy too much that I’m ready for some chill backyard bbqs instead of snow once a week.

        1. Trixie*

          The outdoor site was lovely (local vineyard) but humid summer temps was a challenge. Agreed on concern for physical limitations or even just comfort zones at a trampoline park.

  182. Teapot Coordinator*

    Resume question: On my last performance evaluation, my boss described me as the best teapot coordinator he’s worked with in 20 years at the organization Can I incorporate this into my resume without it looking like bragging?

    1. NoGhosting*

      I’m not sure about resume but potentially a cover letter. If you are dead set on putting it in your resume it could look something like “regularly exceeded expectations for teapot coordinator position in performance reviews”? But then again I am not an expert.

          1. Anonanonanon*

            I don’t know if that even belongs on the cover letter. Definitely use him as a reference though.

  183. Nacho*

    I need some advice about working in a call center. 80% of everbody’s time is spent on the phones, but the other 20% we’re taken off the phones to answer emails. Basically everybody listens to music while working off the phones because it’s a call center, and it’s hard to concentrate on writing things with a dozen people holding different conversations all around you. Yesterday, our new site leader sent over an office wide memo telling everybody that listening to music while on the floor is no longer allowed (or technically never was, but nobody ever cared before).

    Anybody have any advice for how to work in a loud, noisy office surrounded by other people whose jobs require them to be constantly talking, without getting distracted?

    1. NoGhosting*

      Ooh that’s hard. I used to work in a busy call center so I know the feeling of getting distracted easily. What worked for me was having a white board and a dry erase marker of the customers information and what they needed handled. I don’t know whether it was standard practice in all call centers or if it was just the one that I worked in but it helped to keep me on track if I ever needed to just write something down really quick. And its not a violation of any privacy policies because it can be erased away into nothingness.

    2. GD*

      Earplugs? If the rule is that you can’t listen to music– how about listening to nothing? ha. Semi-serious suggestion!

  184. NoGhosting*

    What is your weirdest interaction with a customer?
    Mine from today: A man walked into my work and demanded to speak with Fergus. I looked at him and told him that there has never been a Fergus that worked here and what did he need to talk to him about so I could see if maybe I could help him. And he says Fergus has been handling his loan for 10 years and that he needs to see him. To which I responded that since Fergus has never worked at this location I would need to know what type of loan it was to further assist him. And he said he wasn’t sure what type of loan it was but that it was his and he had been coming to this location for years to talk with him. I asked some more clarifying questions and he refused to answer them to anyone but Fergus and how dare I ask such personal things of him. I literally just asked if it was a personal or business loan… And he storms out of the building demanding my head… hahah

    1. NW Mossy*

      I was a bystander to an interesting one recently. An individual contacted us irate that she’d been enrolled in a product of ours without her consent. Our call center was able to pull the call where she asked about the product, and we were also able to produce a copy of the enrollment form she signed, dated, and returned to us. Said form includes language that makes it clear that if you sign the form and return it, you’ll be signed up. Nevertheless, she was still upset and very vocal about her lack of respect for our apparent terribleness.

    2. Weyrwoman*

      TBH that sounds like a really poor attempt at social engineering, followed up with an attempt at emotional pressure to cause you to cave.

        1. Weyrwoman*

          It’s the first check in a social engineering attempt – claim to be there to meet with “Fergus Smith” or “Jane Doedotter” or whathaveyou. Receptionists/other gate-keepers might, in their desire to assist the person, go “Oh, did you mean John Smith?”. Or in this case, “Oh, Fergus Smith isn’t in loans – he’s in Accounting”. Now the person knows the name of someone who actually works there, and possibly their job title or department. Using that, they can pretend to be that person over the phone and pressure other employees to provide them with more detailed info.

    3. Murphy*

      A customer came to our small, nonprofit, no kill animal shelter looking for a very specific breed of dog to mate with his dog so he could sell the puppies, which mostly goes against what animal rescuers are trying to do. It was a weird conversation in general, but I told him that all of our animals are spayed/neutered and he asked me “what if I wanted him to keep his penis?”

      A customer asked me if we had any younger puppies. I told her that 2 months is about as young as they come. She said that she wanted a “baby baby” puppy, like “9 weeks old.” I told her that 9 weeks was a bit longer than 2 months. She didn’t argue, but I don’t think she believed me.

      A man was visiting the shelter with 4 or 5 children. A small toddler had no shoes on, but the dad was holding him. An older child, maybe 7 or 8 also had no shoes on. I asked him if the older child had shoes in the car he could put on. The guy looked at me like I’d asked a very rude and intrusive question and rudely answered “NO.” I said that it wasn’t safe or sanitary for the child to be walking around without shoes on (either for him or the dogs). The man said “Aren’t there more important problems in America right now than him not wearing shoes?” I eventually got someone in another department to talk to him, and she said he ranted about the government for a while.

      There’s probably others, but those stick out.

      1. Emi.*

        I mean, there *are* more important problems. They’re just totally irrelevant to the kid’s shoes.

        1. Murphy*

          I think I said something like “Not right here, right now.” Probably should have said “ALL THESE HOMELESS ANIMALS.”

    4. SophieChotek*

      Well, at my coffee shop job a customer came up and asked for coffee in French. I don’t speak a lot of French, but I speak enough to ask if he (formal) wanted black coffee or with cream. He absolutely threw a fit that I responded to his question (in the same language; he wasn’t complaining about my accent, which probably was at best passable; he was literally like “how dare she respond in French”)– my manager came running over. Weird.

    5. KR*

      I worked at a grocery store that had just opened. I wasn’t from the town but had gone to a running start program there, attended normal high school a town away, and worked another job in that town for the government so basically my whole life working, shopping after work, doing errands, doctor’s visits, ect were in that town. I then lived maybe 25 minutes away. Someone came up to the service desk asking where the closed food bank was. I told him that I wasn’t sure and unfortunately didn’t have internet access, but if he reached out to the town welfare officer or looked on the local government website there would be information for him, which was much more than most other people would be able to provide him who didn’t work for the government. He asked me again and was like, well why don’t you know. And I didn’t want to say I was fortunate enough to never need to visit a food bank so I told him I wasn’t from the area. And then he wanted to know where I lived and when I told him I lived two towns away he went on a huge rant about how wasn’t the store supposed to provide local jobs and so on. Mind you we had over a hundred people working in our store.

    6. writelhd*

      It seems like in situations like this the inability and unwillingness to answer questions to help you help them just means they’re lying.

    7. writelhd*

      The other week a customer walked in who had three flying squirrels living in his clothing, they were crawling in and out of his shirt and such. That’s not weird from a customer service standpoint–he just wanted to talk to one of our sales consultants and that was relatively normal, but I don’t think he bought–but weirdest thing a customer was casually doing whist interacting with us.

    8. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I worked in a small town. It was also a stop on the train line. Our store was the only one open later than 5 in the evening. So we often had people wandering as they waited. One woman was a regular. She clearly was on something that was probably not obtained legally. The last time she came in, she asked if she could use our bathroom. I hesitated, but I’d feel terrible if something happened to her outside and she had never been violent or anything. So I agreed.

      We had a rush of customers, so my staff and I lost track of the time. Finally, one of us noticed that she had been in there quite some time. Being the manager, I knocked on the door. Once. Twice. Third (frantically). I heard rustling and something that was probably supposed to resemble words. Then shot out the door. My staff and I peered in.

      Clean toilet paper festooned the room like streamers. Cabinet doors were open. The trash can overflowing with paper towels. The sink still running. Drawers were askew. Except for one. I grabbed a plastic glove, closed my eyes, and gingerly opened it. I could feel some weight in the drawer. As I pulled it open, I could feel something hit the side with a thump. I opened my eyes and looked down.

      It was an untouched apple.

  185. Petty Liar's Staff Member*

    I have had this job for about 5 months and until recently, I not been able to put my finger on why I don’t like it more. Sure the commute stinks, but I have kind of a niche skill set, so that’s not new for me. The work aligns with my skills well, I get along with my peers and with higher ups throughout the company, and I had a very good review.

    A few weeks ago, I was in my boss’s presence when I heard her lie about why she was late to a a conference call. Frankly, the truth was not that much worse than the lie, so there was no reason to fabricate. We had been on a different call that had run over, but instead she said she had been in a meeting and “just got back to her office”.

    That’s when I realized she lies easily and often about the dumbest things. She cited a reason for moving my office that made no sense, and I would have preferred she just say “If we don’t put someone in that empty office we’re going to lose it” (which we all agree is probably the real reason.) She will regularly make her own boss out to be an ogre, and of course she protects us from him. Instead to us, he seems like genuinely nice and reasonable guy.

    She seems very interested in “being the boss” and is a petty score keeper. She will say no to things for no apparent reason, and then come up with an implausible one reason later. (I am in my fifties and not used to being managed that way). She is skilled, but kind of not smart about basic life things. At the same time, she is hugely worried about what people think about her; when we lost a member of our team in the last round of layoffs (there have been two in the short time I have been here) she made sure – even in meetings – that everyone knew it had not been her choice and she’d cried while delivering the news.

    She lacks self-awareness. Once she told me “I’m not like you” when I was questioning a company policy that IMO was meant to deter people from seeking a little-known benefit. She continued, “I see the best in people. If there’s even one drop of water in the glass, I’ll say it’s full.” When I repeated this to my co-workers, they could not stop laughing. She regularly goes off about people in our presence, and has said disparaging things about people in meetings. (The disparaged aren’t there at the time, but still.) And here she was calling me negative.

    Even though it would be a job jump, I do have an interview next week. If I get this job I think I would have to take it even though the commute would still stink and it would likely be more demanding. It’s either that or remain here seething constantly.

    But if I don’t get the job, or if I learn more about it at the interview and decide not to pursue it, how can I make things bearable with a lying, petty boss who lacks basic life knowledge and self-awareness? I have had really bad, abusive bosses in past jobs, and she is not those things. I have also had jobs where I worked 70 to 80 hours a week, and that’s not the case here. I really like every one on my team, and do not dislike any one else I’ve met/and or worked with here. How can I stop dwelling on her petiness, insecurity and lies in order to stay here?

    1. fposte*

      Can you mentally classify her as just silly? A lot of what you’re talking about sounds like a preteen/young teen–the defensiveness and the fear of vulnerability coupled with disparagement of others. (I can’t remember what French thinker said basically that self-indulgence and severity towards others are the same vice.) I think her head would be a really exhausting place to be. You can be happy you don’t have to live in it.

      1. Petty Liar's Staff Member*

        Thanks, that’s a good suggestion. I know it’s going to involve the application of a bunch of coping skills, but I’ve never been really good at the ones that require silencing all the inner dialogue.

        My job involves quite a bit of work away from my desk at various project sites. Yesterday when I was leaving at the end of the day, I let her know I was stopping at one on my way in on Monday, and would be off to another by noon. Obviously I was doing this out of consideration – so that she would not wonder where I was. She responded “That’s perfectly OK. Fine with me.”

        Really Boss? It’s fine with you that I actually do my job? Thanks, but I wasn’t actually asking your permission!

  186. OfficePrincess*

    I need to vent/sanity check. I’ve been in my current workplace for almost 5 years, though this is my 3rd position. Within a few months of starting at entry level I was promoted to supervisor with no training or clear guidance on my authority and options. I fumbled through for a while but struggled to get the results I was looking for. At th same time I had a few health problems pop up. Around 18 months ago I took a lateral transfer into my current position, which added additional reporting and client coordination in exchange for no longer having people reporting to me. My boss went out of his way to emphasize that it was a lateral move and that he didn’t want to lose me since I have the best understanding of our entire process (including things there is no reason for me to know but that came up once and stayed in my brain). The corporate contacts for our customer always come directly to me and other facilities lean on me for certain things.

    My issue is this: my boss was pushed out earlier this year as part of a new VP wanting to set up his own team. My new boss recognizes that I’m the best one to answer questions or explain the nuances of various reports and instructions, but I’ve lost my seat at the table when things are discussed, even things that I’m responsible for monitoring. Then today, I got an IM from the current supervisor (my old role) that new boss doesn’t want me reporting directly to him anymore and I now need to report to supervisor. There is very little overlap between what I do and what his other reports do.

    This is shitty right? I feel like I’m being pushed out and that I don’t matter. None of the internal job postings make sense for me. In a few months my employer contributions to my 401k are fully vested and a large part of me wants the day that happens to be my last day. Is there something I’m missing here that I should do differently?

    1. CM*

      I get why this feels really demoralizing and like they don’t value you. At the same time, you just got the news today about the change in your reporting. I would hang on for a few months and see how it goes — your feelings about the situation might change, your role might change, the VP may settle down after a while and stop restructuring everything. Don’t decide anything while you’re still reeling from unwelcome news.

    2. Triplestep*

      I agree with CM – wait and see how this plays out, but yes – I would dust off your resume and start researching here about how to find and land a new job. This is your career – you don’t want to take a stand just to end up hurting yourself.

      What you describe is definitely shitty – being told about a change in reporting over IM is indescribably shitty! (Seriously, do they expect that to be the official word here?) While it might be counter-intuitive (you seem to be a go-getter with a strong work ethic) take the opportunity to let go a little. Losing your seat at the table means that they are focusing more on their new priorities, and may see you associated with the old. Use this to your advantage – get your job done, do not invest in proving yourself as a high performer who goes above and beyond. Use that extra energy to plan and achieve your future job goals, but know that those might not happen right away.

  187. Hello Kitty*

    I’ve been at my first job out of school for just over two years now, and recently requested for an increase in salary. What would be the appropriate amount of time to wait before sending an email reminder? My manager is located in a different branch so I would be unable to give a face to face reminder.

    1. CM*

      Maybe try to schedule a phone call with your manager? Sending an email saying, “Reminder, please give me a raise,” does not seem like it will be effective. Do you have 1-on-1 meetings with your manager? That would be a good time to address it. Or, if you have a scheduled review coming up, that would also be a good time.

  188. d*

    I moved to a new city and started a new job 8 months ago. I work for large corporation doing a job that is required by the government. I like my job but when I started they doubled the size of my department and now we either have too much work or no work to do. We have been in the no work phase for a while and people are getting antsy. Management says that more work is coming but the date keeps being delayed. They also say our jobs are safe because the company is still hiring but this is a company that has a rep in the area for laying people off. Before I moved I was at my last job for over a year and a half and the jobs before that over 3 years. Do you guys think I should start looking somewhere else? or would I look like a job hopper. I can’t move internally until I have been in my position 1 year.

    1. Triplestep*

      A lot depends on where you are in your career, but if the company has the rep of laying people off, it would not be surprising to local employers that you are looking.

      I don’t think it can hurt to start looking, but don’t just jump AWAY from this job – make sure you are jumping TO an opportunity. You will need to stay at it a respectable amount of time before looking again.

  189. Lucy Van Pelt*

    Hello all —

    Has anyone here job searched while trying to buy a house? I am currently, but unhappily employed and have recently decided to start actively searching for a new role. My husband and I are also currently, but unhappily, occupying a small apartment and are looking at buying a condo in an extremely competitive, over-priced market. I’m not worried about losing my job, but wondering it’s a foolish idea to embark on both these things at once? My feeling is that there will never be a good or perfect time for either, but if anyone has any advice or thoughts I’d appreciate it!

    1. fposte*

      I would run this question past a mortgage broker to see what effect moving jobs might have on your loan. There’s also usually a period close to purchase where they don’t want *any* big changes; check to find out if that would be true in your case.

      1. beanie beans*

        Oh, that’s a good point! You have to submit all kinds of proof of income for the pre-approval process, but then they go through confirming it all again during the actual financing process and a big job change could slow things down or even cause things to fall through!

        1. SophieChotek*

          I agree; good point – I’ve also read you should never make big purchases (like a new car) when buying a house either, as that could count against credit check, even if one is pre-approved and pre-qualified.

    2. beanie beans*

      My practical side says job search first because I can’t imagine the heartbreak of landing a great job that has a wicked commute from the new place you just bought! But I know things don’t always fall into place that easily – good luck!

    3. HisGirlFriday*

      Do not change jobs while house-hunting. DO NOT CHANGE JOB WHILE HOUSE-HUNTING. You will need to prove income in order to qualify for the loan. If you change jobs before getting the loan, the underwriter may not be willing to count your income — if you’re in a probationary period, that’s especially true — so they may only look at your husband’s income. Also, once you have the loan secured, do not make any large purchases, or change jobs. Once you have the loan, do NOTHING that will change your credit score.

      Buy house, then find new job.

      2. AdAgencyChick*

        If you DO find yourself in the situation that you’re house- (or, this being NYC, apartment-) hunting, and something really plummy gets dangled in your face on the job front…how much time do you think is necessary between taking the plum job and plunking down on a house?

        Asking for a friend. Okay, not really!

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          (PS: my husband’s and my credit scores are spotless, and we intend to spend well below our means on a house. Preapproval was a snap. Not sure whether that changes the answer.)

          1. Whoa*

            From what I’ve read and remember from my own home buying/pre-approval process just last year, it doesn’t matter AS much about how long you’ve been in a new position, but more so that you have a stable job history over the last two to three years. Although if anyone is reading this that is self employed, in my state at least, you must have a minimum of two years of self-employed specific tax returns in order to qualify for a mortgage.

    4. Stranger than fiction*

      I think it’s best from a lender’s point of view, that you stay in current job, to show some stability. I hear that’s not as much a factor as it used to be, but you said yourself the market is competitive.
      Also, omg that sounds extremely stressful doing both at once.

      1. De Minimis*

        What I had heard was that it depended on your work history and also on how your new job relates to the old one. If it’s in the same career field and is at least a lateral move I don’t think they care too much as long as you have a lot of solid work history. They may have a problem if it’s a downgrade in pay or if it’s in a totally new field.

        I had issues the last time I was house hunting because I’d only been in my then-current job for just over a year, and had been out of work for a few years prior to that. We still got the loan, but I first had to write an essay about my current job and my plans to remain in it for years to come.

        We may be doing the same thing again soon, but I’ll have more recent work history this time.

    5. Lucy Van Pelt*

      Thanks all! (hopefully this comment is showing up where I intended… long time lurker, first time calling in.)

    6. Someone else*

      Unless you’ll be paying all cash for the house, you should finish the house hunt before switching. Any mortgage is going to want to see you in your current position for at least 6 months. If you have a job switch within 6 months of the mortgage application it will affect the application. So unless you’re expecting the hiring process to take significantly longer than the house-hunt, it is a bad idea to conduct both searches at once.

  190. Weyrwoman*

    Yay for work/school updates!

    I start school for the third time on the 2nd – I’ve registered for classes, now I just have to pay for them and get the books :)
    I also got a call on Tuesday from the company I’ve been interviewing with, from the guy who I think would be my grandboss, to tell me to expect an offer “later this week”. But I haven’t heard from anyone nor received an email. The suspense is killing me!

    1. Triplestep*

      Congrats on school and good luck with the offer! (Alison’s advice is always to mentally move on until you get an offer, but it’s a lot harder when someone tells you to expect one.)

  191. Anon Today Anon Tomorrow*

    I’m sick of our office idiot. I have one co-worker who is just clueless. He’s been in his mid-level management role for a few years, and he seems perpetually confused about pretty basic tasks, and he has the lightest workload of any manager in the organization. This in itself is annoying, but hasn’t gotten me to the BEC stage yet with him. Until this week.

    We are going through some changes organization wide, which is causing everyone more work. It’s the kind of change that is unpleasant in the short-run, but should be helpful in the long-run. OMG, clueless co-worker has been in my office multiple times a day talking about how scared he is he will lose his job, how he’s not sure how he’s going to manage the extra work. I made the critical mistake of being sympathetic during the first visit, and now it seems endless. He’s complaining that he’s working 12 hour days just to keep on track with his current workload. Mostly I ignore him. But, he’s driving me NUTS.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Next time he comes in your office and starts complaining, say “you know, Fergus, you’d probably be able to stay on top of your workload better if you didn’t spent 30 minutes a day in my office”.

      [okay, so probably don’t say that – or say it nicer – but this is my instinctual response]

    2. Triplestep*

      Make it about you. “Fergus, I really need to focus on my work. I know that talking about it is the way you cope with change, but I cope with change by focusing. Thanks for understanding.”

      Fergus would drive me nuts, too, for what it’s worth. I have had jobs where it’s wall to wall work (like forgetting to go to eat and use the bathroom workload) and anything that took away from time that could be productive made me resentful as hell. So to hear a person complain about their piddly workload would send me over the edge. Fergus would totally be my BEC.

  192. Snow*

    Do y’all have any suggestions for project/task management software, to be used by an individual with no expectation that her team members will also use it?

    The nature of my job (teapot consulting) is that I juggle tasks for many projects at a time, with varying (and frequently-shifting) deadlines and milestones, and varying project managers. Tasks do not have to be assigned via my direct manager; anyone in the company who needs my help on a project is free to call me and ask whether I have time to do X on Y project, and it’s my job to tell them yes or no. I am responsible for keeping my direct manager apprised of my workload (I send him weekly reports on my planned workload for the upcoming week). If I’m underloaded, he’ll find me tasks to do; if overloaded, he’ll check in and help me triage or delegate.

    My company does not use any form of project-management software. Communications go via phone or email (Outlook). Calendaring is via Outlook. Project files/assets are kept in Dropbox folders. Projects are scoped and time budgeted in advance, usually with very general tasks like “Task 1. Evaluate existing teapot models. 40 hours of Snow’s time, 10 hours of Jane’s time. Estimated completion 30 days from contract approval.” (The time budgets are most often underestimated, which is a whole other issue.)

    I have been using to-do list software and have found it helps me keep track of my task list — but it doesn’t help me track the estimated time to complete each task, so it doesn’t help me keep track of how many hours I have available to take on new projects in upcoming weeks and months. I’ve been finding myself overwhelmed lately because I forgot to account for Project Q when I accepted Project Z — or suddenly the client for Project B comes back with a new request that we still need to get done by the original deadline — and suddenly I realize I’ve committed myself to get 60 hours of work done in the next 4 days.

    Is there such a thing as project-management software that can handle just my personal piece of these projects, and will show me a decent estimate of my workload in terms of hours per day and per week, without requiring everyone else on the team to also use it? I need to be able to revise deadlines and start times on the fly, because they change frequently. I also need to be able to enter projects and tasks without necessarily knowing exact start/end dates, or to be able to mark dates as estimated somehow. Some tasks are hard-scheduled with a specific date and time (like meetings), others are “have a report done by May 15,” and others are just “sometime between now and mid-May-ish?”

    I need to be able to enter projects, tasks, and sub-tasks (and sub-sub-tasks?) — breaking down the big “evaluate teapot models” task into “evaluate model A”, “evaluate model B”, “write report,” and then into smaller concrete tasks like “get existing implementation of model A”, “check if model A has a parameter representing assumption C”, etc.

    Finally, this really needs to be as low-friction and as fast a learning curve as possible. I am supposed to spend less than 8 hours a week on non-billable work, including administrative stuff, so I don’t have lots of overhead time to spend on project management — I need to be actually doing the work. Plus the job is fast-paced and I need to be able to enter tasks fast before the next phone call comes in. I pick up new software fast, but I don’t want to have to click 80 buttons and select from 20 drop down menus every time I want to add a new task.

    (Also I’d like a pony and world peace.) Suggestions welcome!

    1. o.b.*

      Asana sounds like everything you’re looking for. Beautifully designed, simple but really customizable (with nesting tasks!), and sometimes tier are unicorns.

    2. Triplestep*

      Does it have to be software? If you feel like you can use an Analogue system, do a search on “bullet journal” (And look at the original version conceived by Ryder Carroll – not the millions of people online who have turned it into a scrap-booking activity. The original is simple and elegant, but people are using the term very loosely now.)

      If you’d rather do something electronic, and you already use MS Outlook, there are ways to use it as a time management tool. I took a class offered by McGhee Productivity Solutions called “Take Back your Life with MS Outlook”. The trainer kept emphasizing the fact that he was not an Outlook trainer – it was about time management skills, which ultimately I found to be true. I used the methods until I started working for a company with an older version of Outlook and I didn’t have access to many of the built-in tools in the newer versions.

  193. PeakVincent*

    How do you keep your head up during a job hunt? My job makes me really unhappy, which makes it difficult to apply for jobs with my downtime, and then when I do apply, I’m either rejected without an interview or I take time off I can’t afford, interview, and THEN get rejected. I haven’t been looking very long, all things considered, but I’m early in my career and I worry the longer I spend at my current position (customer service/admin assistant at a teapot seller), the harder it will be to get into my actual desired field (a completely different thing).

    I feel very stagnant and am very unhappy with my current job AND with my job hunt. Job hunting is a long and frustrating process, I know that! But knowing it doesn’t make it less frustrating. Does anyone have tips for maintaining momentum for applications and staying positive in materials and interviews?

    1. RB*

      Wait for job postings to come along that really get you excited about the job. Those are the ones that are worth spending all your time and effort on. Also, applying for too many at the same time is stressful because if you get several interviews at once, it’s a huge time drain. Despite the appeal of getting offers from more than one company, this is actually not a great situation. You might turn down one offer, thinking you’ll get an offer from the other company, then you don’t get that offer and you’re back to square one.

    2. Triplestep*

      I agree you should wait for job postings that seem like a good fit and spend your time and emotional reserves on those. If you haven’t done so already, search here for advice on finding and landing a job and apply it to your search. Learn to read job postings for clues on what they are really looking for. I skip right from the title to the qualifications, and then start at the beginning if the qualifications match up. It’s easy to read the description and responsibilities and say “I can do that!”, then talk yourself into being a great fit when the qualifications include experience and/or degrees you do not have.

      And while you’re stuck in a job that makes you unhappy, use less of your off time applying for jobs not well-suited for you, and more of your off time on things that make you happy, or at the very least, are good for you. Are you exercising? Are you eating veggies and drinking water? If you are not doing those three things, use more of your down time to find simple ways to move more and eat better. These are things that are proven to help the blues. If you’re not athletic, just walk more. Find chair yoga videos on youtube. Set phone timers to drink glasses of water. Steamable bags of frozen broccoli are an easy way to get in your green veggies.

      If your unhappiness is more than the blues, consider finding a counselor. Many times we tell ourselves we’re sad or in a bad mood, and there’s more to it. Take care of yourself.

  194. Twisted Knickers*

    Hello…as part of my job I manage an external professional group of local executives who are looking for a way to pose questions to the group as a whole, and have back-and-forth discussions on the topic. I’m looking for any suggestions on a tool we could use. They all work for different organizations, and they aren’t all able to use Google. Any thoughts are appreciated…thanks!

    1. LisaB*

      How many people? If it’s less than 20 or so, you’ll probably be best (and easiest) to set up a list-serv. One organization would have to sponsor it to do the user adds/deletes, but then it’s as simple as sending an e-mail. We use that for a few similar groups and it winds up pretty efficient. I don’t know for bigger groups though.

      1. TwistedKnickers*

        It’s actually almost 100 people. I’m trying to find a way to not be the one managing this! Thanks for your suggestion.

  195. Lululiz*

    Hi everyone, I wanted to sort of half vent about work a little and half solicit some opinions on my current situation. My partner passed away very suddenly a little less than a month ago. She was only 29 and it was a heart attack with no warning signs. Obviously I’m absolutely wrecked. We were planning a wedding and talking about our future children, I went to bed, and the next she was gone. I took exactly seven days off.

    My bosses were… well, on the surface they told me to take as much time as I needed but I could DEFINITELY sense the atmosphere that they wanted me back ASAP. They called and texted multiple times a day to request ‘updates’ on ‘when you think you’ll be back’. I had to deal with waiting to hear from my partner’s family (estranged from her for almost five years but still legally next of kin and disinclined to include me in much) and an out-of-state funeral that was planned without my input. I got the impression from work that they didn’t really understand why I couldn’t come to work since, after all, I wasn’t the one responsible for making arrangements.

    I came back to work and was immediately bombarded with a list of things that they wanted me to get done. My job is hospitality management and I understand we’re about to go into the busy season and we have new people to hire and train, bulk orders to make, things like that, but on top of the regular busy season they have recently been agitating to make a TON of changes to the structure of the department. They’ve gone ahead with their plans — given me a laundry list of new tasks and things they want me to update/change, asked me to do lengthy reports on the current practices. There was absolutely no concern expressed about if I could handle not only coming back and cleaning up after a week out, but also the addition of lots of new responsibilities and tasks and huge changes to my job. I respect that I’m definitely biased on this but frankly, none of the changes they’re pushing to make are immediately necessary to implement. They could have waited.

    On top of that… the “sympathies” I got from my boss, grandboss, and great-grandboss were…. less than ideal. Great-grandboss and grandboss both spent a lot of time telling me that they understood how I must be feeling because they have had a parent die, and that the best way to deal was to ‘believe that G-d has His reasons’ (great-grandboss) and that ‘all you can do is look to Jesus and know she is with Him’ (grandboss). Thanks, but a.) just because I have been widowed doesn’t mean I now want to talk about religion in the workplace, and b.) SHE WAS/I AM JEWISH.

    My direct boss was even worse. She was weird and invasive about why exactly I wasn’t involved in the funeral plans, why the funeral was in Alabama when we are in Massachusetts, why I didn’t fly out for it, why I had never met my partner’s parents before, why they were estranged, why why why…. and then on top of that, seized on my mention that she had been cremated against her wishes to comment that if there was no will I couldn’t really know if she did or didn’t mind being cremated, and additionally, that if her husband died, she would probably have him interred in a cardboard box because he refuses to talk to her about that sort of thing.

    Being back at work has been better than being all alone in an empty apartment, or sitting at my parents’ house listening to them tell me I need to get back to normal, but I still feel completely overwhelmed. I’m sad and distracted and the most inane things set me off. (Thank G-d I have the controls to the Pandora radio playing in the lobby because I almost LOST IT when one of her favorite songs played three times in one hour.)

    The people around me (not just at work) are pretty evenly split between those who express shock that I’m managing to get out of bed and those who keep telling me that I shouldn’t be wallowing, so I’m not really sure how to gauge how well I’m coping. I started therapy but I’ve only had two sessions and they’ve been mostly talking about backstory stuff.

    I guess I’m just hoping for someone to tell me that falling behind on my work isn’t the worst sin in the world right now? I’m normally a high-performer, but I have forgotten and messed up on things in the past few weeks that a month ago I would have been horrified with myself for dropping the ball on. Making to-do lists to keep track of things is helping, but it just seems like I don’t have enough time in the day to get everything done, and I’m already working close to 55 hours a week (my usual is between 40 and 45; this isn’t a position where I’ve ever been expected to do much more than a 40-hour week).

    If anyone actually bothers to read this whole screed I already wholeheartedly appreciate it. I feel like I’m headed for a nervous breakdown.

    2. fposte*

      I am so sorry. What a horrible shock for you.

      It sounds like your office has gone a bit off of the deep end about this, beyond even the usual awkwardness people have about death. While that’s frustrating, maybe that can be a semi-useful focus for your anger right now–it’s more viable to be angry with your boss for not getting that Judaism is a thing or deciding you’re back up to speed now than to be angry with a universe that robbed you of your loved one so cruelly early.

      I also think it’s possible to say to your boss that this schedule is not currently viable for you. Since you’re talking to a therapist, it could be worth exploring that conversation with her first, but I think it’s a pretty reasonable request–you’re saying you’re delaying the optional ramp-up stuff and prioritizing the rest of it. Do you think it’s to the point where you might want to consider a new job, and do you think you’d be up to that?

      1. fposte*

        I am so sorry. What a horrible shock for you.

        It sounds like your office has gone a bit off of the deep end about this, beyond even the usual awkwardness people have about death. While that’s frustrating, maybe that can be a semi-useful focus for your anger right now–it’s more viable to be angry with your boss for not getting that Judaism is a thing or deciding you’re back up to speed now than to be angry with a universe that robbed you of your loved one so cruelly early.

        I also think it’s possible to say to your boss that this schedule is not currently viable for you. Since you’re getting help already, it could be worth exploring that conversation with a professional first, but I think it’s a pretty reasonable request–you’re saying you’re delaying the optional ramp-up stuff and prioritizing the rest of it. Do you think it’s to the point where you might want to consider a new job, and do you think you’d be up to that?

        1. fposte*

          Sorry about the duplication there–the first one went to purgatory so I posted an amended take.

    3. KayEss*

      I’m so sorry for your loss, and that so many people in your life are being so incredibly awful about it. I hope the therapy picks up and helps… don’t be afraid to seek out other grief healing resources, as well.

      (Your boss, I can’t even… I realize grief is socially awkward, but I’d lie awake writhing in agony every night for the rest of my life if I had said something like that!)

    4. Sabrina Spellman*

      Not being 100% productive after a complete shift in your life is understandable, but it doesn’t seem like your superiors understand at all. Is there any possibility that you might be able to take another temporary leave to get your mental health in order?

    5. PeakVincent*

      I’m so, so sorry about your partner. Your bosses sound like jerks. I’m sorry for your loss and I hope they develop some empathy as you go through this.

    6. Thlayli*

      So sorry for your loss. You are being totally normal; your bosses are a-holes. I second the idea to get signed off by doctor for a few weeks of mental health leave. Use that time to grieve and if you feel up to it, to start a job search.

      So sorry again.

    7. CM*

      This all sounds insane to me. You unexpectedly lost your life partner! I am so sorry, and of COURSE you are still grieving. Your workplace is being incredibly inconsiderate and you should drop the so-called friends who are saying you’re “wallowing.” Wallowing??? After only a month of losing the most important person in your life?? I’m glad you’re getting therapy and hope it will help, because it sounds like you really need some outside perspective here. Here is my outside perspective: Everybody in your life should be nothing but supportive for the next few months as you process these changes. Your coworkers are jerks for not even respecting that you needed to take undisturbed time off in the immediate aftermath of your loss. If possible, please try to push back on your increased workload. Drop as many balls as you need to, and then drop some more. As soon as you feel able, look for a new job. Meanwhile, please take care of yourself — you’ve just had a huge, life-changing shock and it will take you time to adapt.

      1. London Calling*

        *Wallowing??? After only a month of losing the most important person in your life??*

        Oh I have no trouble believing that. My mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer in October 2008 and died 10 weeks later. I flew out to Australia (I’m in the UK) to see her after the diagnosis in September and then for the funeral in early November. When I came back I clearly wasn’t operating at my best for a variety of reasons, which irritated the colleague who told me that ‘I should be over it by now.’ Never underestimate what jerks people can be – although it turned out that her’s was a particularly egregious brand of stupidity.

    8. LizB*

      Falling behind on your work is totally normal when you’re in the midst of serious grief. Falling behind on your work is also totally normal when you’re getting used to a bunch of new tasks, and it’s also pretty normal when you’re catching up after being unexpectedly gone for a week for any reason. So you have three big things going on, any one of which would make it unsurprising that you’re not at 100% with your productivity right now.

      Also, holy crap, your various bosses are being total dicks about this whole thing. I’m sorry you’re dealing with their inappropriate prying and completely tone-deaf comments. Some people completely lose their judgement in horrendous ways when someone around them is grieving, and it sounds like these people are also not good at relating to religions and relationships different from their own, so they’re blurting out all sorts of boneheaded crap. That really, really sucks.

      I hope your therapy starts feeling more useful as you get more into it, your bosses learn to shut the heck up, and may your partner’s memory be a blessing to you. Lots of internet hugs.

    9. RB*

      That’s terrible – my sympathies. I would immediately cut back to 40-45 hours a week and talk to your bosses about prioritization. Even though being at work helps take your mind off things, burnout is not the solution to dealing with grief. As you mentioned, several of these projects do not require immediate action.

      Best of luck.

    10. AdAgencyChick*

      Oh. My. God.

      You need validation? Here’s validation for you. Your employers are awful and of course it’s normal that you’re not performing to your normal standards right now. A halfway decent boss would understand that.

    12. Batshua*

      Hamakom y’nachem etkhem b’tokh sha’ar avelei tziyon viyrushalayim.

      I don’t know how religious you are, but I would suggest taking on some aspect of 12-month aveilus (saying mourner’s kaddish for a year, even if not every day, to acknowledge your grief, or something like that) might be useful to you. It would bring you in contact with community who would recognize and support you in your grief unlike your off-the-rails workplace.

      Or do something for the year that makes sense to you to let yourself mourn. A loss this big isn’t something you get over in a week, or a month, or even a year, or … you know, ever. But taking a year to be in mourning, even if it’s stuff you have to do outside of work might help you validate and process this stuff.

      I don’t know what your Jewish community is like, or if maybe there’s nothing near you that speaks to you, but if not that, then … something. Find people who are not at your job, people grounded in non-toxic ways of thinking about the world, to help you move forward in life. Friends, a knitting group, a book club, something. People whose norms aren’t weirded and will listen and support you.

      And… maybe get a new job? Because um, yeah, this sounded kind of just … awful. Unhealthy. Probably not a good place to stay. You deserve better than this job.

      1. Triplestep*

        Totally agree with the mourner’s kaddish suggestion. When my father was sick and dying, I read a lot about Jewish customs around death. What I had not fully understood as a child growing up in the tradition is that the way Jews do death and dying is very focused on the mourner. The prescriptions around burial are so that the mourner has little to think about and plan. Shiva is about bringing the mourner gently back to her day-to-day life. And customs and laws around kaddish are an opportunity for the mourner to feel supported by her community – something you are sorely lacking right now. I am moderately observant as an adult (note I am typing this on a Saturday!) but the way Jews do death and mourning makes me really happy that I am Jewish.

        You did not get to fully participate as a mourner after the death of your partner, and your workplace seems to want to erase your identity as a mourner now. But you *are* a mourner, and you deserve to be supported as one. I grew up in the Reform tradition in which everyone routinely stands for mourner’s kaddish. As an adult in I learned the power of standing only with other mourners (and those seated forming the supportive community around us). If you are not already saying kaddish, consider Batshua’s advice to say it as one would for a wife.

        If you’re not affiliated with a synagogue or other Jewish group, I would look for a Reconstructionist or community first, and in you don’t have one near you, look for a Conservative one. You will be welcomed – no one will ask for your “Jew card” or issue any kind of observancy quiz going in! But if you don’t want to be in a group of people you don’t know, check out Ritualwell dot Org, and maybe gather your friends and create some of your own rituals. Ask your friends to do the planning if you’re not up to the task or would find it more stressful than helpful.

        And yes, I would also suggest that once you feel you have the emotional reserves built, that you start looking for a new job. Religious and cultural differences aside, your managers are jerks.

        I am so sorry for the loss of your partner. May her memory be a blessing.

    13. deesse877*

      This will only help as perspective, but for what it’s worth, one reason some people are being terrible is because it was unexpected and she was so young. That sparks really intense fear in many, and they can behave really inappropriately.

      I’m very sorry for your loss.

  196. R2D2*

    I just started listening to a new podcast called WorkLife with Adam Grant: A TED Original Podcast. I think my fellow AAM readers will love it!

      1. R2D2*

        Season 1 Episode 2 was fun! It featured the writing team and Trevor Noah from The Daily Show.

  197. Amalthea*

    Hello all,
    I will soon be leaving my current position, my first job post-graduation. It was a limited-term position meant to help recent graduates get some more experience in the field, so it isn’t any secret that I’m leaving in the next few months. I was recently chatting with a coworker that I needed to look into finding a mug from the area ( I collect them – they are both aesthetically pleasing and useful) and that I liked mugs that are very evocative of the area, but not in a tacky way.
    When I came back from a break, my coworker gave me quite possibly the most perfect mug for the state and region that exists. I gave my effusive thanks for the mug, but is there anything else I should be doing? It’s obviously handmade and probably a little pricey, maybe in the $15-30 range, but I don’t think this coworker is expecting anything, we’re a pretty laid back office. Should I also write a note? Do something else?
    Tl;dr – I’ll be leaving my job soon and my coworker gave me a lovely local mug. Should I do anything beside in-person thanks?

    3. Camellia*

      No, the thanks you gave when it happened is great, no need to do anything further. They did it because they wanted to, you thanked them effusively, done deal.

  198. Sparkles*

    Okay, so I am training someone, and I just don’t know how to deal with their personality type. To give a bit of background, I have been at my position for a little over a year, and the girl I am training has also been here for a little over a year, but she is not trained in my department. She is coming in with basic knowledge in this department, and I just have to teach her what to look for on the specific documents that we are taking in. The problem is, is that she doesn’t take criticism well. Like at all. If I am to correct her or just say- you’re doing great, just make sure you watch for this next time, she gets all defensive and tries to give excuses. She has corrected me in front of clients (even though her information was incorrect) and when clients ask me a question she will just start talking over me to try and beat me to the answer. I feel like I have done a pretty good job so far because others have applauded my patience with her and made comments like “better you than me”. Is this just a personality flaw that I just have to work around? I know you have to learn to work with all personality types, but my patience is running thin.

    1. The Lord of Spoons and Spills*

      I would be very direct with her about her reactions to criticism. If it keeps happening I would view it as an insubordination problem and would escalate accordingly.

    2. LizB*

      No, this is a behavior she needs to stop, not a personality flaw you have to roll with. Alison has some great posts in the archives about people who argue with feedback instead of taking it into account; I’d read those, then have a direct conversation with this woman using whatever scripts are appropriate.

      Are you her manager, or a peer? If you’re a peer, I’d let her actual manager know that this is going on before your conversation, then let them know about her reaction to the conversation as well. Ideally her manager would back you up and help you address this if needed.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Next time she interrupts you in front of clients or gives the wrong answer before you have time to respond, you should sit down with her immediately after and tell her why that is not okay. If she’s not receptive (I suspect she won’t be), you should take it to your manager and explain that you did try to train her (as you were requested to do) on not interrupting etc but that she doesn’t seem to be willing to listen to you.

      I’d say it really doesn’t matter if it’s her personality type or not – she’s not demonstrating good work behaviors despite training and having it modeled for her.

  199. RB*

    In the vein of yesterday’s Share your Knowledge discussion, is anyone good at making their own dried fruit? I would like to do it with the summer stone fruits (peaches, nectarines, apricots) and possibly mangoes. I would like to avoid buying a dehydrator and do it in the oven (I’m cheap). I don’t mind if it takes several hours or overnight.

    1. Becky*

      I have a friend who dries apricots outdoors in the open air in summer. I’ll ask her for some tips.

        1. RB*

          Oops, I got the open threads mixed up. I don’t usually write into the open threads so I forgot there was a distinction.

  200. Thlayli*

    Tl;dr – Give me your ideas for rules of work in open plan office!

    I’m excited for this – an actual work question! I am moving to an open office with 13 people in 3 weeks time. This is my entire team, our Boss, and boss of another section. All in one room moving from a bunch of smaller offices. My boss has asked me and a coworker to come up with some “etiquette rules” for the open plan office. Post below what you think they should be!

    1. OhGee*

      FYI, I’ve been in an open plan office for over three years and I hate it.
      Etiquette rules: use headphones for music, don’t eat at your desk unless those in closest proximity explicitly feel it’s ok to do so, find a private space/office with a door to sit in if you need to have an extended conversation (including personal calls), and please — I wish I didn’t have to say this, but it comes from real-life experience — DON’T CUT YOUR TOENAILS AT YOUR DESK.

      1. Weyrwoman*

        These are all really great. I might also add:
        * If the extended conversation includes in-person meetings with people in the desk group but not all of them, consider booking a meeting room so that your conversation doesn’t distract the others.
        * Headphones are great. But your podmates shouldn’t be able to hear whatever you’re listening to. If someone has headphones on, come up with polite ways of getting their attention such as peripheral waving, tapping lightly on the desk corner, or IMing them. Impolite ways include shoulder tapping and shouting.
        * Allow desk decorations as long as they aren’t offensive or disproportionate (like a huge bust or something)
        * Cellphones should be silenced. This includes alarms – no one wants to hear Fergalicious or whathaveyou ad nauseum and be unable to silence it because the alarm owner is AFK.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        In my open plan work experience, there weren’t rules about whether you could or could not eat at your desk. Most people did and I don’t recall it ever being raised as an issue in and of itself. However, old building + reduced trash service meant we ended up having a rodent/bug problem, so we gave up individual desk trash cans and just had trash, recycling, and compost bins near the main office doors and in the kitchen space. So there should be a rule about keeping your desk area clean and free from crumbs, though, and not leaving food trash in your desk trash cans, though.

        NO SPEAKERPHONE USE ALLOWED. Seriously, I cannot stress that enough. Get a hands free headset, they’re great.

    2. Narwhal*

      If someone comes up to talk to a colleague, open plan etiquette says you don’t join in just because you can hear them, or turn your chair round / start very obviously listening in etc.

  201. M*

    Any thoughts or stories about reversing course on a work decision that involves several other teams?

    I’m leading a project on developing a new teapot, and I felt strongly that we should invest a lot of time and money in creating a new look for this teapot as I didn’t like the look of the prototype. Through the beginning stages of this project, many people felt that the original look was fine, but I convinced them that this was the right approach. Now that I’ve done more research into the cost and time of doing this and thought more about the benefits related to the cost, I’ve changed my mind, but my internal and external clients are already on board that the more expensive approach is the way to go (not to mention that the task of reversing course on this will be awkward and create uncertainty about other decisions we’ve made). Any thoughts on handling a situation like this?

    1. Anonanonanon*

      Did the cost go up? If so you could say you want to revisit the decision in light of the unanticipated costs.

      1. M*

        It didn’t go up from what we initially thought it would be, but it was always a fairly high cost. It’s really a question of visual esthetics vs. functionality. We know that what we have now functions as needed, but it doesn’t look great. Whether or not it looks terrible is a matter of opinion. My concern is that now that I based the need to create a new look as a matter of sticking to our high quality standards, so I feel like a reversal will look like we don’t care about the product as much (which isn’t true – it’s really just a matter of weight cost vs. benefit).

  202. Dzhymm*

    I have a question for those who have worked or managed retail: how are retail workers so incredibly able to COMPLETELY IGNORE customers in their establishments? I’m talking about things like standing in line to check out and the cashier is having a lengthy animated conversation with the person they’re waiting on, apparently blissfully unaware of the growing line snaking to the back of the store. Or going to the pharmacy and finding everyone behind the counter head-down and focused on their work, and not a one of them even appearing to acknowledge that a fellow human has appeared in their midst.

    How do they DO that? I own a small retail establishment, and I make sure that every customer that comes in the door is at the very least greeted, acknowledged, and attended to in some way… even if it’s to say “We’re really busy right now, would you like to have a seat or would you prefer to come back later?” In fact, I find myself pretty much physically incapable of NOT acknowledging a customer. How do other retail workers develop the skill of ignoring the customers?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Well, I’ve worked at a Starbucks-like coffee shop for years…and I honestly don’t know–I do think sometimes staff do willfully ignore customers.

      That said, I think when you have workers behind the counter who are working (prepping, cleaning, filling prescriptions) they do get involved in a task and may not see a customer the second someone walks in.
      If I am in the back washing dishes, for instance, I keep my eye on the front counter, but if someone walks in during the five seconds I look down to wash the pitcher I am holding, I don’t see them…I mean, as soon as I do (in a few more seconds) I run out to the front.

      Regarding the talking with someone in front of the line…honestly, I tend to blame the customer more than the cashier. We’re under a lot of pressure to create “community” and have a “connection” with customers (else they right on the feedback surveys that the server was unfriendy /rude). I am always aware there are more people in line and am trying to get people to move on, but sometimes they just stand their and keep talking even when I try to get the to keep moving. Once I give them their change I can usually at least get them to move over…and I try to wait on the next person, but some people really like to talk and they see their barista/coffee shop person as…their free therapist to whom they can complain?

      1. Dzhymm*

        Thing is, when you’re busy chatting up the one customer at the head of the line (so that they don’t leave you a bad review), you’ve got sixteen customers behind them who also have the potential to leave bad reviews…

    2. Laura H*

      It’s a bit of a catch 22…

      We should be attentive to the current customer in front of us. But we also need to be attentive of the line. That’s hard to juggle and I’ll choose the customer I’m working with every time.

      Of course every retailer is different- and mine is very counter-heavy if that makes sense.

    3. McWhadden*

      I’d much rather pharmacists make me wait a bit and not mess up their work. Interrupting that and then going back and trying to remember where you left off is super dangerous.

      And it’s hard to not be rude to the customer speaking with you but also not be rude to the people behind.

    4. KR*

      Former front end supervisor at a Maine based grocery chain. We call that cross talk when the cashier and the bagger are having a conversation while helping a customer. I had reasonably good luck curbing it by a) coaching the employee as soon as possible when I saw it (right after the customer left if I could), b) modeling good behavior with the customer by involving the customer in our conversation which helps the transaction go faster, makes things more welcoming for most customers, and makes them feel like they are a part of our team and c) being explicit and explaining that cross talk makes the customer feel alienated, like they are bugging the employees by needing help, makes it so if they have a question they might not ask because they don’t want to interrupt, and shows that we aren’t focused on the customer (and may not hear them when they ask for paper bags or we may miss count how many oranges they bought or something). As for not seeing the customers, that’s hard and you learn from experience how to stock/work while checking for customers. Something I liked to say was that even if the customer doesn’t look like they need help a simple “Hi, how are you” opens up the conversation so they can ignore you if they want or ask a question if they need help. Good luck. I know it is hard to get retail employees to do stuff sometimes.

  203. AmITooPicky*

    Last week I posted asking for advice about Phoebe’s supervision docs. We had a good discussion this week and she is open to thinking about something else. I did show her what Monica and Rachel do. She reminded me that she has an ADD diagnosis and is concerned that if assignments aren’t on that list they will fall through the cracks. I’m hopeful it will get better! Thanks all.

  204. Batshua*

    Guess who is having trouble getting to work on time again?

    I’ve only been diagnosed with ADHD for about a year and I’ve only been on meds for six months, and we aren’t even sure we’ve found the right medication yet; I’m on my second one and I’m not sure it’s helping.

    The HR accommodations guy clearly thinks I’m either incapable of understanding the import of showing up to work on time, lazy, or lying. When I told my therapist and the union head what he said, neither one sounded happy.

    I’m having trouble with inertia, and until it’s solved, getting to work on time consistently is a problem I don’t know how to attack. I finally figured out it’s not all the other things it usually is for people with ADHD. I just can’t get moving? I’m not groggy, I’m not dreading work, I’m not distracted, I’m not disorganized. I just … am not … ready, like, in my mind, to get moving.

    People keep saying when the meds are right, it will be a LOT better.

    But right now, the meds AREN’T right, and it seems like everyone’s solution is just to tell me “just get to work on time”. If it was easy for me, I’d be doing it. If it was hard but consistently achievable, I would’ve made serious progress by now.

    I’m so so frustrated.

    Based on what HR said, therapist said I should speak with an HR lawyer, because while there is no reasonable accommodation for lateness of this sort [nor do I expect one], he seems … unsympathetic to the fact that this is an active, ongoing process.

    I’m afraid that maybe this job is now poisoned; it seems like now it’s not just “be on time”, but “one minute late is not okay ever” (this is against union rules, but the way our master agreement is worded is oddly nebulous).

    I was talking with my ex-fiance about this, and he suggested I say to my boss “This is something my doctor and I are currently working on”, although I don’t know if that will make a difference in her opinion of me.

    I am going to see what there is for other jobs in my company, even if it’s a lateral move rather than a step up, but do people have suggestions on how to survive in the meantime? What to say or what to do or what not to say or what not to do?

    I am trying so hard to compartmentalize my anxiety about this.

    1. fposte*

      I think an employment lawyer isn’t a bad idea; also have a look at AskJAN dot org online to see if there’s any language or practice in there you can use as a template.

      But I’m also wondering about the suggestion to say “This is something my doctor and I are currently working on”–not because it’s a bad idea, but because it makes me think you haven’t had a discussion with your manager about this beyond “I’ll try not to be late again.” In most jobs, your manager is your first stop–“I’m working on this with my doctor, they expect that it eventually will be sorted out, but can we create a plan for the next few months until it is?”

      I don’t know what job you’re in and how much of a problem it is for your manager or for other people that you’re not in at the time expected (and then throw in unions and I really can’t make a guess), but in a lot of jobs what’s important is that you’re working toward resolving this and it’s reasonable to think it will be resolved in 6-12 months. Some jobs they can’t wait on resolution very long, some can wait on longer, but generally managers are more likely to be on your side when you let them be insiders in the process.

      Good luck! Both in the job and getting the meds just right.

      1. Batshua*

        I’m a front desk clerk in a clinic that’s open 7-5. My current shift is 8-4:30. They want to move it to 8:30-5, but I know that without getting my meds sorted, my sneaky liarbrain will eventually move my entire schedule down until I’m running late again.

        (HR does NOT believe me. The dude thinks I’m lying, but like, I’ve lived with this brain my entire life. I know it’s a sneaky bastard, and I’ve seen it do this before.)

        Honestly, I don’t think it makes sense to freak out about the 5 minutes from a macro point of view. There is ALWAYS going to be a time when I’m not there, because I don’t work a 7-5 shift (thank the stars). However, I think for a lot of managers, lateness, even minor lateness hits their beserk button.

        I have told my boss that I’m actively working on my timing, and I have told her I am trying a new medication, BUT I’m not sure I worded it clearly enough that she put two and two together. So… maybe I just need to do that?

        1. fposte*

          Definitely put those two together for your boss!

          I am an on-time person. I have only in recent years stopped being an “if you’re not five minutes early, you’re late” person (it took years of academics to wear me down). I have only in, like, the last two years of a multi-decade life genuinely started to understand how late-running people’s minds work with time. I don’t think most people are going to get it without framing, and you want to make it easy for them to get it, so frame the hell out of it.

        2. Temperance*

          I agree with fposte here. Honestly, up until Captain Awkward’s recent post about a similar issue, I just thought that people who were bad with time were inconsiderate, lazy, or unaware. I think addressing this head on is the way to go.

        3. Pollygrammer*

          I would try moving to 8:30-5, as a gesture of good faith if nothing else. You don’t want to look like you’re dismissing solutions.

        4. WellRed*

          Other things aside, and sorry the HR accommodations guy is such an ass, but, you work a front desk so your view that being five minutes late shouldn’t be a big deal is not a good look.

        5. Amtelope*

          Saying that it’s not important for you not to be late in a front desk position does not help your case. I think you will get farther with your boss if you can genuinely acknowledge that, yes, this is a big deal, and no, you should not ever be five minutes late for this job, even if that means regularly arriving early. Then you can move on to “right now I am having medical problems that make arriving on time or early difficult, but I am actively working with my doctor to fix that.”

          But the moment you say “I don’t think it’s a big deal to be a few minutes late,” it will sound like you are not trying 100% as hard as you can to be on time, and that is the road to getting fired.

          1. Batshua*

            Oh, I’m definitely not saying that to them, it’s just that they seem disproportionately freaked out about it, given that I’m trying literally everything I can think of to be consistently on time or early, and it’s not like I’m cavalierly waltzing in at 15-30 minutes after or anything.

    2. Anon because mental health*

      Oh man. I don’t have suggestions, but so much empathy. I’ve been struggling so. damn. hard. to get to work on time and not be so sleep-deprived, and only recently considered that I might have ADHD. And yes, it feels like there’s not a lot of understanding. Because people are only late because they’re not trying hard enough, right?

      I’m not sure exactly how FMLA works, but can your therapist sign documentation that they recommend a specific accommodation (flexible start time)? Or have they already done so, and HR guy is just being obnoxious?

      1. Batshua*

        I am not sure they will do flex time; I’m mostly hoping the meds work, and I am working on some crazy stuff like smart light controls including maybe a blinking warning.

    3. valentine*

      There’s a great post on Tumblr with a cartoon showing how this inertia works. It starts with the person saying something like “I’ll get going in a minute,” then has a stream of panels with their brain repeating, “Not THIS minute, THAT minute.” I bypass my inertia by not getting up any earlier than I have to, not sitting anywhere I’ll dawdle, and not eating. I get up, use the bathroom, get dressed by the front door, and get out. I am to walk out the door an hour before I need to be anywhere because I’d rather be bored than anxious. I may pack a book and possibly a granola bar. If this would work for you, maybe you can take the 8:30 start, giving you from 8:05-8:25 to eat or, if there’s a single-seater staff bathroom, finishing your makeup or putting on your socks. (I’m assuming your supervisor wants you sat down and ready to take a call or sign in a patient at 8:00, not rushing through the door and disrobing/setting up at 8:00.) If you don’t wear scrubs and clothing choices are holding you back, pick out a work uniform so you everything coordinates and you can grab any top/bottom. If shoes are an issue, likewise reduce your options. Nuclear option: choose a wrinkle-resistant black top and pants you can sleep in and get dressed at work. A long coat and black work pants would help hide this, if necessary, but if you can be on time, they want to keep you, and your entrance isn’t a flurry or commotion, this seems like a reasonable thing to allow. Moving your timepieces back, if that doesn’t sabotage you, and set your phone to a different time zone.

  205. Totally Minnie*

    We’re hiring right now, so I’m in the middle of sorting through job applications this week. Part of me wants to start drunk live-tweeting all the red flags I’m finding.

    2. Weyrwoman*

      Got any gems that aren’t going to call someone out specifically? I love seeing what sets off alarm bells!

    3. Totally Minnie*

      1. The “Reason for Leaving” section in the applicant’s job history.

      Applicant is not being at all careful here. One previous job was at a business owned by their ex’s parent and they had to quit when the relationship ended. Another job, they say that they were fired but it wasn’t really their fault and they can explain. The next job, they badmouth the company’s policies and procedures. It goes on and on.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I had an application this week that said “boss was murdered” in that section. Definitely gave me a moment’s pause.

        1. Totally Minnie*

          Oh my gosh.

          Although, depending on the circumstances, I might quit if my boss was murdered too.

    4. Totally Minnie*

      2. The “May we contact this employer?” box in the job history section.

      One applicant selected “No” for every single employer in the list and declined to list any references. There’s literally no one I can contact to verify that this person exists, let alone that they are not an ax murderer.

    5. Totally Minnie*

      3. No job history listed.

      This applicant’s education section says that they received bachelor’s and master’s degrees a decade ago, but there is no job history listed on either the resume or the job application. They’ve got a couple of internships listed, but no actual jobs. I have no way of knowing if this person is qualified to do the job I need them to do.

    6. Totally Minnie*

      3. Supplemental questions.

      We do a general application form that’s the same for every job posting, with supplemental questions at the end that are more fine tuned for the specific job we’re recruiting for. One applicant copied and pasted their entire resume as answers for all the supplemental questions.

    7. Totally Minnie*

      4. Putting extreme limits on availability.

      This position is shift based, so we detail the potential days and times the applicant may be asked to work and ask them to identify any schedule conflicts. One applicant has listed such specific time restrictions that they’d only be available to work for about 3 hours a week.

    8. Totally Minnie*

      Apparently my counting skills have gone away leaving me with two threes and a four that should be a five. Sorry about that, folks!

      1. Totally Minnie*

        We don’t put birth years on applications, but based on the graduation years and job history length, I’d guess that most of the people I mentioned above have been in the workforce/out of school for about 15ish years.

        What I think is interesting is that you see glaring errors in applications at all ages/career stages, but they tend to be a different category of errors. Things like trash talking your former employers or not allowing a company to contact former employers tend to happen with people who have been in the workforce longer. Things like being super restricted with availability tend to be newer workers. These aren’t universal, just trends I’ve noticed.

        1. nep*

          Oops — right. No ages. I wasn’t thinking straight.
          Thanks for the examples and insights.

  206. Zillah*

    A friend of mine (who lives in PA) has a history of cancer in her family, and her doctor found something concerning on her recent physical that was still the case when she went back this week because she had a really awful case of the flu. He wants to send her for an ultrasound asap, but when she talked to her team lead about coming in late or leaving early one day next week to get the tests done, the team lead told her that she was already being put on a “final warning” for being out sick with the flu for three days, despite her doctor’s note. If she misses work before April 1, she’ll lose her job, because “if I make exceptions for you, I’ll need to make them for everyone.”

    She really needs to get this done before April 1 if at all possible, especially since her doctor wants to have the results by her followup appointment with him – and, also, having “do I have cancer” hanging over her head for a couple additional weeks is going to be a major stress.

    She’s friendly with her boss, but she’s supposed to go to her team lead first and she’s afraid that going over the team lead’s head will make the team lead pissed off and put her boss in an awkward position because of their friendship. I also don’t know that the ADA applies here.

    My suggestions were:
    1) Get her doctor to write a formal note saying that it was medically necessary to get the test done as soon as possible.
    2) Talk to her union rep about options.
    3) If the union rep doesn’t have any ideas, approach her team lead with the formal note and say something along the lines of, “I totally agree with you about exceptions, and the last thing I want is for anyone to think that I’m benefiting from favoritism, so I got you an official note from my doctor saying that this is a medical necessity. That way, if concerns about exceptions based on other things or accusations of favoritism come up, you’ll have formal documentation. If you’re not sure whether that’s enough, can we talk to [Boss] together about how we can find a way to make this happen? He might have some ideas that we’re not thinking of.”

    I don’t love my wording, but that’s kind of the sentiment I think she should be going for if the ADA doesn’t apply. Am I off-base? Does anyone have any other suggestions? :/

    1. fposte*

      Ew. If there’s a union, the union’s the first stop here. It sounds like there’s some weird rule about a limited number of sick days in a short amount of time or something? I would make sure to be in possession of the exact wording of this policy. Sure, get a doctor’s note just for the heck of it, because it could help, and I like your wording for the approach to the team lead.

      But I also think if her choices are losing her job or going to the manager, going to the manager is a no-brainer. If she *does* have a serious illness, she’s not going to want to be jobless, even if her team lead is mad at her.

    2. CatCat*

      I would bypass the team lead here. The rigid policy is totally ridiculous and since the lead has already denied the leave request, the union rep and the boss are the next stops. This is too important to worry about ruffling the team lead’s feathers.

      It doesn’t really put the boss in an awkward position because of friendship. If this absurd hard line policy is the company’s actual policy (as opposed to the team lead’s personal policy), that’s what is making this awkward. This could be any employee going through something like this and it would be awkward to adhere to such a draconian policy. The friendship is a red herring.

      “Boss, I have a critical medical test on [date]. Team Lead denied my request and said I would be fired if I took the time off for the medical test. This medical test is absolutely urgent and critical. I can bring a note from my doctor. I don’t want to lose my job because of my medical situation. What are my option here?” If possible, I’d have the union rep at this meeting, but I wouldn’t wait on the union rep if they’re not available.

      The team lead blows.

  207. Underpaid Bookkeeper*

    So I had a meeting with one of my freelance clients and his CPA last week. I gave my info to his CPA and he says he’s going to send me some bookkeeping work come May or June aka after tax season. Seems promising to get me out of where I am at. I look for new jobs often not much out there…or it’s there but at the same pay rate as I am currently making. Hoping I can leave my current job soon.

  208. PMQs*

    I wonder if anyone can give me some advice: I manage the work of a multi disciplinary team some of whose jobs I have done before but several, which are quite technical, I haven’t. In general I take the perspective that these people are experts and we’ve hired them to do a job so I rely on them to give me estimates of how difficult their work is, how long it should take etc… In addition we have discipline leads and heads of discipline who are the line manage people in my team and others. I am quite new to the role and I’ve come up against an issue.

    Recently one of the people in my team, whose job I don’t have experience with, missed several self described deadlines for work. At the same time, the discipline head raised concerns with me about the speed if not the quality of their work. I had several conversations with this person about priorities and the need to finish this project but the same thing – they would say to me I’ll be finished by the end of the week or I’ll be finished by Wednesday etc… and then the specified day would come and it would not be finished. Out environment is quite informal so I didn’t have these commitments in writing though other members of the team heard them. I had another conversation with their head of discipline as I wanted their expertise on this work and they promised to talk to the team member and ask if they needed extra support or training.

    The team member then had quite an upset conversation with me in which they were defensive about the quality of their work (which I had not questioned) and the size of their work load. I reiterated the need for reasonable estimates of how long products would take, that I understood that sometimes things took longer than expected to finish but I needed to know when and why that happened, that perhaps I could have been clearer that I wanted things done by a certain time etc… Initially there seemed to be some improvement and a large chunk of work was delivered by our agreed deadline. However since that time it has started to happen again. It has caused me to start questioning the quality of their work and whether there’s a capability issue here. Additionally the team member still isn’t receiving or asking for any support. Also our next project has a very strict deadline and I’m concerned that my team member won’t be able to deliver on time. I feel like they have quite a lot of pride which is preventing them from asking for help or admitting when they’re having trouble. Also their discipline lead (as opposed to the head of) has been quite absent recently due to leave and illness.

    How do I deal with this especially when I am finding it difficult to evaluate the quality of the work and whether or not it should be taking this long. I’m hoping their discipline lead will be more available from this week so I might be able to ask them to help but should I? Or should I be dealing with it myself? If so, how?

    1. fposte*

      I’m not familiar with the concept of discipline leads and heads of discipline–can you clarify how the lines of reporting work?

      Setting that aside, I would meet with her. At the very least, you have somebody bad at assessing her production rate, which makes it hard to plan around. But I think you have somebody who doesn’t really know how long her work takes, throws out random dates, and then panics. I also think you guys have kind of a freewheeling approach and that she may be somebody who responds better to clear guidelines.

      So here’s what I’d do: meet with her, talk about your concerns, talk about the fact that this is a coaching situation and not a punitive situation. Plan intermediate deadlines en route to the project deadline and 1-1 meetings for you two at those deadlines. Also task her with auditing her time spent on various tasks so she can develop a sense of how long each module of the work will take her; that’s something she should share with you as well. (You should explicitly ask for those each time you meet, too, or in advance, and not just wait for her to volunteer them.)

      You can also do some mild research to see what production rates are likely with this kind of work; check with other people in your company, or field. But whether she’s slow or not, she could get better at planning her deadlines and dealing with the process, and it can only be good for your company to help her with that.

      1. PMQs*

        It’s a bit of a weird system so for example if we were working on teapots you might have one person on the team who designed teapots, one who built them, one who painted them, one who wrote about it etc… And I manage that team. There might also be a lead teapot builder who has lots of experience in that specific area and is the direct line manager of the teapot builder in my team (and senior to me though I don’t report to them). I manage the teams work and set direction for our specific teapot and the team as a whole. It is confusing and partly why I think I’ve got myself in a muddle. I may have also caused more confusion with this explanation…

        It’s good advice about more specific direction. We are pretty light touch in our team which mostly people have responded well to and i dont want this person to feel singled out so maybe catch ups away from the rest of the team will help.

        1. fposte*

          I also would worry less about her feeling singled out and more about her failing when managing could have saved her.

    2. Thlayli*

      I worked for years managing projects with big multidisciplinary teams. The way to deal with this is by involving the discipline head in planning and tracking the work. You also need to start using email to document the agreements.

      Have a conversation with discipline head about this issue and ask for their help in setting the main deadline and some sensible interim deadlines. Ask DH to set aside some time to review the interim deliverables also.

      Discipline head will understand both how long these tasks should take, and also any other workload your team member might have, so you should have a fairly realistic schedule. Then you email this plan to team member, copy discipline head and ask team member if this schedule is achievable. Also in this email you should ask TM to show/send the interim deliverables to both you and DH. Insist on a written reply if that’s possible without making too big of a fuss.

      DH should review the interim deliverables and let you know if they are reasonable progress or not. If any interim deadline is missed, send an email the day after and ask TM for a status update. If they fob you off, ask DH to have a discussion with them and revert to you with a new plan. It may be that the work is genuinely taking longer than expected, and only DH can really assess if that is the case. DH can assess if more resources are needed to meet the original schedule.

      This sort of interim discussion needs to happen about once a week. To be clear, I would not recommend this way of working for every team member, this is only because of the previous issues.

      for most team members on my projects I used to just ask for at least a “percentage complete” update once a week, to track progress, and trust their reply. if they were running behind I’d ask them If they were still going to meet deadline or needed more help/reschedule/reallocate other work.

      What the interim deadlines should be should be part of your initial conversation with DH. It sounds like you are saying to Team Member “I want your teapot built by end of month”, then you have one big deliverable and no way of checking up on it in between. Depending on the type of work they do it might be possible to set interim deadlines eg “I want the spout on the first Friday of the month, the handle on the second” or “I want a drawing on the first Friday, a description on the second Friday, the body on the third, and the glazing and painting at the end of month”. That way you can identify delays much sooner.

      It would be best to do the meeting with DH in a private meeting room and book it for a half hour.

      Good luck.

    3. Jerry Vandesic*

      Whenever they make a commitment to have something done by a particular date/time, set up a calendar meeting with them for that date/time to review the work. That way the deadline is definitive, and that you show that your are planning on reviewing the work they committed to finishing. If they slip the deadline, there should be a trail showing the movement of the review meeting.

  209. Anonymous Ampersand*

    Bit late but hoping….

    I feel that when I’m prepared for, say, an interview, I can put myself across really well. Seem really professional and talk straight.

    When I’m in team meetings, though, or sometimes when talking to senior managers, I feel like I can sometimes come across like an idiot.

    I am hoping to get to a higher grade in work pretty soon and I feel like this is something that will help me to work on. But… how? I’m wondering about some form of coaching? But I don’t know what it is I want or need.

    Help?

    1. Weyrwoman*

      Why do you feel like you are coming across as an idiot? Is this feedback you’ve received or just your impression of others’ impressions of you?

      1. Anonymous Ampersand*

        Yeah, it’s not something that I’ve received feedback on, but sometimes in meetings I start to talk and then either run out of steam or realise half way through speaking that I’ve forgotten something important that makes what I’m saying wrong, and I get funny looks.

        But I take your point!

    2. fposte*

      Hi, AA!

      There are two possibilities here. One is that you’re right–that you could be stronger in meetings. If so, what kind of strength are you looking for? Is it a phraseology thing, a shutting-up-faster thing, a making-contributions-in-the-moment thing? Is there a manager or somebody senior who tends to be in those meetings that you could have a bit of a heart to heart with to say “Hey, I feel like I’m not making the mark in meetings that I think I’m capable of–since you’ve seen me, can you suggest some growth spots?”

      But the other possibility is that you’re wrong, and that you’re comparing the emotional vulnerability of talking to people who you are going to see in the bathroom on a regular basis against that of talking to people you’ll leave behind. When I was in grad school, we had mock oral exams, conducted by your fellow students, to help you prepare for the real thing, and it was generally agreed that they were more stressful because we want our friends to think we’re smart whereas professors had more distance on the matter. Maybe something similar is going on with you.

      1. Anonymous Ampersand*

        Hey fposte :) astute as always! I think it’s a bit of both.

        I’m good at speaking up in meetings but I sometimes do so too fast – before I’ve thought through the ramifications of what I’m saying. I suppose that part is simple to rectify! And there’s someone i trust who I can ask about that.

        I think part of it is that I feel rather intimidated by my team manager. I like and respect her a lot (and she clearly thinks a lot of me too, and has given me a hell of a lot of support through my recent Life Stuff) but she can be a bit blunt sometimes.

        Again this is something I can ask my work friend and also my line manager about.

        Thank you! You’ve given me some food for thought (and made me feel a bit better about it).

        1. Thlayli*

          Take notes in meetings and make brief bullet points of what you want to say – this will force you to think it through first and marshal your thoughts.

  210. MissGirl*

    Had a phone interview scheduled for today at noon, then the recruiter pushed it back two hours. After waiting 15 minutes, I emailed him and now he wants to do it Monday.

    Definitely not a good first impression. Luckily I have a job I like. This is a company I’ve been impressed with and applied because I figured why not see what they offer.

    We’ll see if these yellow flags turn red. Anyone accepted a job where there were yellow flags? How did it work out?

    1. Emily*

      I once accepted a job where the recruiter completely missed our phone interview. She called me first thing the next morning apologizing profusely and we rescheduled. At the in person interview she apologized again and mentioned her son had been in a minor accident (he’s a teen) and it slipped her mind to cancel with me. Everything went well after. When you talk with her she may provide a good reason, otherwise I would say it’s not a good sign that they respect your time.

  211. Cyclops*

    I have amblyopia (or a lazy eye). I’m pretty much completely blind in my left eye. I am getting ready to start my dream entry level job Monday (yay!). My blind eye has never been a problem at work, and it’s very unlikely I will require any accommodations because of it. That being said, due to my vision issues I’m a real klutz, I frequently fall, walk into things etc. It can be very embarrassing. My left eye also decides sometimes to veer far right or left, or even roll back into my head. It usually only happens at the end of the day when I am exhausted and my co workers only noticed it a few times at my previous job (or at least they were gracious enough to not mention it). My eye is getting worse so it’s more likely to happen in the future. I’m going to be at a small office, and want to mention it somehow to my new co workers and manager so they don’t freak out when they see my eye rolling back into my head, or think poorly of me the first time I walk into a door. Any suggestion on how to do so? I’ve never really brought it up at previous jobs, but with my eye getting worse it’s more likely to be noticed, my gut is to bring it up before someone notices. Should I just wait and see if anyone notices or asks?

    1. fposte*

      Hi, Cy–congrats on the new job! I would drop it into conversation in a low-stakes moment with the manager and with maybe one co-worker (though if it’s in a group situation, like a lunch, that’s fine too) and let it spread on its own rather than feeling you need to tell everybody. It might be mentioned during on-boarding to the manager or to the trainer, or if you trip over or bump into something that’s a great opportunity to bring it up even if that isn’t why. “BTW, my left eye doesn’t see very well so I bump into stuff sometimes–I’ll try to avoid your ceramic mugs!” You don’t need to get into details, and people should be able to extrapolate that as a general “eye thing” that would cover its wandering. If somebody brings it up first you can use much the same language–“Yeah, my left eye does that sometimes, since it doesn’t work very well; don’t worry, it doesn’t hurt!” Basically, be brisk and matter of fact and they’ll take their cue from you.

    1. fposte*

      Thanks for reminding me of that blog! AAM has had commentary from Donna here occasionally in the past, so there’s definitely overlap.

  213. SoManyLibrarians*

    I might be late to the game here but are any librarians or library workers in a union? What was the process of creating or joining like? Does a national or international union represents you? Thanks!

    1. Unionized library worker*

      I work at a large municipal public library and we are unionized. I’ve been here 10 years but the union has been around much longer – I don’t know what the process to become unionized was like. We have a local arm of a national union that represents another smaller library system close to us as well. It’s a union for public sector employees.

      Pros of a union: higher wages; protection if the union is strong.

      Cons: it’s so much harder to move up (seniority matters) and it’s hard to get rid of poor performers. Since money is not a motivator to work harder, some people just don’t. Also paying union dues – mine is $50/paycheck.

      Hope that helps

      1. SoManyLibrarians*

        Yikes to the union dues! Does the increase in pay make the dues worth it, or do they kind of cancel each other out?

  214. No More Hot Fish!*

    Attack of the fish microwaver! I’m in my first trimester of pregnancy in an office across from the communal kitchen, which is a new form of workplace torture. We can close our doors when we’re on the phone, but they otherwise must stay open. Another staff member eats 6 small meals a day for some kind of special diet and they microwave chicken or fish every time, the smell of which instantly sends me running to the toilet.

    I finally broke down and disclosed my situation to HR because my supervisor was noticing I am frequently not in my office (due to fish-scent-induced puking 6+ times a day) but I’m not yet ready to announce my pregnancy because it’s still early. We are banned from using any kind of air fresheners because of a coworker with MCS. HR offered to move my office, but no promise that I’d be able to move back and I currently have a window, so I’m not risking losing that! A few hours later the HR rep came to my office and gave me a teeny bottle of lavender essential oil and told me to sniff it when the fish is being microwaved to cover up the smell.

    I am displeased.

        1. CatCat*

          I don’t get why they don’t just relax the door closing policy. This is an issue that will have a definite end. Why move you to a whole office when they should just let you keep the door closed? Baffling!

    3. Emily*

      Is there another microwave that fish could be heated in? We had someone in our office who was super allergic so all the microwaves on our floor had a sign that said “please don’t microwave fish due to allergy.” If anyone wanted to nuke fish they had to go upstairs.

      Also have you tried prego pop drops? They are life savers for nausea!

    4. Thlayli*

      I can’t believe people are allowed to microwave fish in the office – that is super stinky and you can’t be the only one bothered by this. Ask around and then go to the fish microwaver as a group and ask her to pack it in! Fish stinks up the whole office.

    5. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      You could try putting an alcohol prep pad under your nose during the microwave times. It’s great for nausea. Buy in bulk at any pharmacy.

      Maybe talk to your Ob about all the vomiting and consider getting some meds for nausea?

  215. L*

    My boss is always overly stressed and very animated about it, and I’m starting to find it annoying. Pretty much every time I’m in the office with her she’s taking deep breaths, putting her head in her palms, honestly, looking like she’s about to cry. The thing is, I know for a fact that she is overwhelmed and has a lot on her plate, probably a lot more than she should, so in a way I understand her stress, but I still find it kind of unprofessional for her to be so overly expressive about it, especially around me, her direct subordinate. Also, we work in the media industry, we aren’t exactly curing cancer and nothing we do is urgent enough to have a nervous breakdown over in the grand scheme of things. My questions are: 1) Am I being a monster for being annoyed?; and 2) what’s a good way for me to react to her outward expressions of stress? Up until now I make small talk comments in an empathetic tone like “you have a lot on your plate today, huh?” or “is there anything I can take off your hands” (the answer is always no). It’s starting to feel awkward and disingenuous to keep regurgitating the same empty platitudes, and I’d honestly prefer to not react to it at all, but I’m afraid that would come off too cold. What do I do!?

    1. fposte*

      Well, it’s not like she can decide not to be anxious because you’re not curing cancer, and there may be reasons, which you might not know, why it’s particularly stressful to her right now.

      But I suspect part of why you’re annoyed is that you feel like her signs of stress are something you’re supposed to respond to. And I think you absolutely don’t have to respond to them–if this is SOP for her, ignore it and just focus on the stated message.

  216. Dainty Lady*

    /rant/ I should go home before I tear someone’s face off in a very un-dainty manner. I’ve had four full days of giving presentations and organizing groups. I get to the office on the fifth day and I have a huge mess to clean up, plus 200 emails, 150 of which need actual decisions and input. I cannot easily get my receipts for a hotel stay. My husband who works on the same campus came to have lunch with me and *clanged his spoon and chewed with his mouth open* the entire time. My admin assistant has interrupted me five times in the last hour. We’ve had to install air purifiers due to some environmental issues and now people are wigging out when the indicator lights turn orange (OMG!!!!! PARTICULATES!!!!! ….yes, that was my husband’s lunch being heated up, probably). And now someone is HUMMING in the next office. I have gotten one thing done all day so far. I should have taken the day off, I so should have. /end rant/

  217. Red Reader*

    My global strategic management course textbook has “synergy” as a bold-face vocabulary word in this week’s chapter. :P

    (“Synergy exists when the value created by business units working together exceeds the value those same units create working independently.”)

  218. Taco Belle*

    So I have two things that are related… and I tell all the people close to me so much I think they’d be slightly biased.

    I’ve been having issues with our area manager. As it is I’m the manager of a store and everyone above works at a head office/remotely. Area manager was promoted last year from another store in the area and we knew each other were friendly before. She’s got a bit of a blunt streak but will argue til blue in the face when she’s wrong and generally winds not just me but seems to be everyone else I come into contact up. We had a slight bust up. I cried (professional I know) and then got signed off sick – I’ve been having a stressful time out of work and wouldn’t put it all on her but the attitude is a big part of it.

    I’m due back soon and spoke to staff at work today. The rota had been done to cover my shifts (over hours budget) in the office. Turns out she changed all this and has not let them use any extra hours as it will send us over on budget. However my hours are also included and I’ve been paid government sick pay (I’m in the uk) so there’s 3 weeks of my wage not going in. Am I wrong to be wound up she’s put my staff in this situation? Or am I still feeling the after effects of months of general dislike etc?

    I then told my other half. He told me to just hand my notice in when I return… I’m pretty confident I could get some sort of job in the 4 weeks notice. But I’m also slightly concerned about it all.

    Any words of wisdom out there?

    1. CAA*

      Whatever happened while you were gone is over and done with. I think you need to let it go. Getting wound up is not going to fix the situation or likely prevent it in the future. It’s not so much whether you’re right or wrong as being practical about it.

      I’m not entirely clear on the consequences of not having your shifts covered, but I assume it’s that everyone else had to work harder and the work still got done? It’s not sitting there piled up and waiting for you? If you can, it would be nice to bring your staff some sort of treat or take them out to lunch and thank them for the extra effort they’ve been putting in during the past 3 weeks without you. They probably know that you weren’t responsible for whatever rained down on them and don’t blame you for it, but acknowledging their effort and thanking them can go a long way towards making them feel better about it.

      If working with the area manager is going to continue to cause you stress, then look for a new job. I once quit a job with nothing new lined up due to an extremely stressful situation and it worked out fine, but I’d still recommend sticking it out until you find something new. If, like you say, you can find something in 4 weeks or less, you’ve only got to stick it out for at most 8 weeks. You may find that the area manager is walking on eggshells around you, and it may actually be tolerable; but if things do get bad again, you can always quit then.

    2. Thlayli*

      As Alison says – your boss sucks and isn’t going to change. I’d be reluctant to hand in notice before getting another job but depends on your field I suppose. Start job searching and hand in your notice whenever makes sense for you.

    3. Taco Belle*

      Thanks guys!

      I’m not in a going to cause a fuss over it more than I just think why make life harder for people. The work will have got done but to a minimum so I expect a lot of admin on Monday when I get back to double check it all in case we get audited. If we fail audit it’s on me but if they were on my shift even 3 times a week it would all be up to scratch. Just niggly things like that.

      The staff all know it’s on her and are amazing so I have no worries about them. Just… bleh. I think she’s shot herself in the foot – they won’t be inclined to help her due to the view they had of her before and even more so now.

      There’s a couple of min wage jobs that are up for grabs round by me. Pretty sure I’d be ok for them and the flexibility would actually be a bonus for me over pay.

      Who knows? I’ll see on Monday!

  219. Salary not what it seems*

    I just accepted a new job and the final salary negotiation with my current boss was done over the phone. At the time, I asked for an offer letter to have paper, but I work in the arts and it is not industry norm to write offer letters. My employers said “we don’t do letters, i don’t know anyone who does” (Which i don’t either, and this place has a great reputation for being honest and good, so I accepted). Now, I just received my first paycheck and it is payment for if I was making 5,000 less then the salary we agreed on. I brought it up right away, but my superior looked at me stunned (like i was crazy) and said she would talk to our boss. They spoke privately, but no one said anything to me the day just ended with no follow up. Now I have this check in my hands and no clear sense of how to navigate getting the pay i agreed to because I don’t have a paper trail. It is “he said she said” salary time and I think I am about to be less 5,000 in a salary. If they do use this to manipulate me out of 5,000, i would have to pick up a second job and it would really effect my life. But i also work in a really small community and this company is soooo well respected within the industry, so I can’t just quit without having serious ramifications. Help.

    1. CAA*

      I’m sorry this happened to you. I don’t have any advice for your current situation, but for the future, it’s o.k. to insist on getting the offer in writing. If anyone tells you that they don’t do offer letters, then you just say “Oh, it doesn’t need to be on paper; an email confirming our agreement is fine. As soon as I get it, I’ll reply that I’m accepting the position.”

      If they can’t even send you an email, then that would be a red flag, but if you really want the job anyway, there’s nothing stopping you from documenting the conversation and sending it to them with a “here’s a summary of what we discussed. Please let me know if anything here looks incorrect.”

      1. WellRed*

        And if they don’t send you an email, you can send them one confirming the salary agreement.

    2. Reba*

      It seems like you don’t yet know what action they are going to take (or not).
      Follow up on Monday.

      Try to stay calm over the weekend and practice your scripts so you can easily and calmly say, “I agreed to take the job for X salary when we talked on the phone. I would not have agreed to Y, and that doesn’t work for me. How can we resolve this?” Then stop talking. I really hope they will work it out. And feel free to ask for the correction and a timeline for fixing it in writing.

  220. vegetablelasagna*

    I’ve been wondering lately: Why do some companies keep bad managers?
    Examples using my manager from my previous job:
    -Attempted to hide the fact she got pregnant by her assistant manager, and that they were dating. This led to an ultimatum by the company that either she needed to leave, or he did. They ended up transferring her to another store (see below).
    -During a “routine” visit by the CEO, she was so disorganized and had done almost none of the tasks the company wanted done (merchandise not set up, ignored emails), that the CEO personally told her that they were making the decision that she was going to be transferred to a lower volume store because she “clearly couldn’t handle the stress”.
    -Would often not show up for work, forcing other stores to give up a manager for the day so that the stores wouldn’t be without one.

    This is just scratching the surface, and I’ve since moved on; but I found out the other day that she still worked for the company as a manager and has been relocated twice for “disciplinary issues”. Why would they bother keeping her? She’s not a protected class, that I’m aware of, so I don’t see them being afraid they would be sued by her. I just can’t wrap my mind around keeping someone who is clearly not suited for management.

    1. vegetablelasagna*

      I also wanted to add a couple more examples:
      -Flipped out on a customer, who was deaf, because she thought he was ignoring her. It ended in her flipping him off and him leaving incredibly angry.
      -Kept people on payroll that she had fired to pad the employee counts.
      -Would often force employees (who were teenagers and didn’t know any better) to work, unpaid, way past their shifts. This was often related to the District Manager giving her a heads up that an inspection was coming and she needed to make sure tasks were completed (that she would often never even start).
      -Sometimes hosted parties for employees, but made sure to not invite employees she didn’t like. She would also give gifts to those people, in front of the employees she didn’t like and tell them that if they “did better” they would get gifts too.
      -Would make employees babysit, do yard work or other chores in exchange for better hours. She was punished for this twice.

    2. Martine*

      If someone is in a protected class they can still be fired for being a horrible employee. They are not un-fireable. They just can’t be fired because for things like race or whatever makes them a protected class.

    3. nick d. morgana*

      Everyone is in a protected class, so she is. It’s no excuse not to let her go for being a bad manager though.

    4. Ann O.*

      I have often wondered this, too. Although my manager at my previous job was nowhere near the level of egregious that your is, he caused multiple people to leave (including me) and struggled in obvious ways with leading projects.

  221. justagirl*

    Thanks to those who encouraged me last week in the open thread.

    TL;DR of last weeks post- peer and fellow manager attributed my recent promotion to my gender and diversity initiatives

    I spoke with our mutual boss today and framed the conversation around the fact that I’d want to know if something similar happened with my direct reports and wanted him to have the information. The conversation went well and I felt heard and respected. I’m not expecting it to go anywhere, but I feel better for speaking up and like I’ve done my duty as a manager. Others coworker might say similar things to might not be in as good of a position to speak up as I am.

    1. fposte*

      Yay! Good for you; I’m glad that you did it and it turned out well. And I thank you on behalf of the people who don’t know you did work for them too.

  222. JustaTech*

    A nice story: I (and 5 other people at my site) just got a nice thank you card from a group at another site, thanking us for helping out when one of their team members was out on paternity leave.
    Yay communication!

  223. Laura*

    Does the new California law that doesn’t allow employers to ask about salary history and requires them to disclose the salary range to candidates who ask also apply to current employees? For example, in California can I ask my employer to tell me the salary range for my position? Or can they still keep that secret from current employees?

    1. CAA*

      It’s AB-168 if you want to look it up, and it only applies to “an applicant applying for employment.”

  224. PhillyRedhead*

    I’m so sick and tired of being contacted by recruiters from temp agencies. They don’t even bother to conceal their disappointment that they won’t make any money off of me because (A) I’m not looking to leave my regular full-time job for a contract position, (B) I tell them my company isn’t looking to hire (and even if we were, we would do the screening and interviewing ourselves) and (C) I won’t refer any of my friends who may be looking. I’m at the point where I never want to answer my phone when it rings!

    1. nep*

      (I don’t expect so…and not expecting a response. Thinking about it just made me curious whether people have ever received that.)

    2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

      I’ve had it happen occasionally, usually with a kind but unrevealing “so nice to meet you” or something. I don’t make much of it if they don’t, and from the interviewer side I don’t usually respond to thank-you emails unless there’s a question in there somewhere.

    3. Overeducated*

      Occasionally! Usually in the case of one or two members of a larger hiring committee responding, but not necessarily the committee chair or an individual hiring manager. It almost always comes off as a nice individual gesture from a particularly friendly person expressing that they enjoyed meeting me, rather than any sign about my candidacy. In fact, I think in all the cases I can remember where I got nice responses, I didn’t actually get the job.

  226. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    Eesh, it is late for the open thread but I have to get this off my chest. Today on a walk back from the bathroom I was chatting with a coworker (who I really like a lot!) about tv shows. Nothing out of the ordinary, Stranger Things, etc. She mentioned a true crime show and said “I know, it’s weird,” so I was like “nah, I like true crime sometimes” and mentioned that I’m reading a popular true crime book that just came out. So she tells me that she watched this show about cannibals… then proceeded to go into rather gruesome detail about one of the cases.

    This was in FULL earshot of the majority of my team, including one new person, and in a high-traffic area where anyone could have walked by, and she wasn’t using her indoor voice. I wish I’d said something in the moment like “haha maybe spare me the details” but I was just making a severe grossed-out face, which she might have interpreted as gruesome fascination? I was just kind of frozen like “she knows this isn’t appropriate, doesn’t she? Doesn’t she??” At one point she was like “you don’t want to know” and I was like “haha I really don’t” and she kept going, I think because she thought I was playing along. Like, okay, in fairness I’d just told her I like true crime. But it’s more that I like interesting stories about investigations. Of course these stories often include gory details, but I don’t exactly relish those. But even if I did, oh my god, there is a line between “here’s a book about crime you might like to check out” and “here’s an extremely graphic description of a murder that happened” in terms of what’s okay to say in the office, where any one of your coworkers can hear you.

    Of course in retrospect I should have refrained from the former, too, since some people are really sensitive to true crime in general, which I understand and respect. But still, “hey, check out Book About Crime” is really different from “so when this guy [gory details] after [gory details]…” right?? Eesh. I really wish I’d said something in the moment. One of my coworkers came out of her cube like “HEY Jane! Here’s a thing I borrowed from you, thanks so much!” which I took as a “we can hear you” signal, which is compounding the cringe even though I wasn’t the one saying those things.

    In short, being part of that conversation was extremely uncomfortable on a number of levels and I wish I’d somehow managed to gracefully deflect.

  227. Canadian Teapots*

    I’m coming out of the academic sector (long-time grad student, now with Ph D \o/), and I’m trying to find local, stable employment (so the “jet off somewhere in the world to do a post-doc” thing is off the table – a combo of personal lifestyle choice and wanting to stay where I’ve put down roots is mostly why I don’t really want to do that). Ideally I’d like to teach, but lecturer positions are few and far between, so…

    Anyway:

    Having read many, many posts by AAM commenters as well as AAM’s replies regarding people who’ve been sandbagged by co-workers, or just plain had differences of perception with bosses, what can/should I be documenting for myself [as well as checking in with boss-person about] over the first few days and over the entire lifecycle of a job I land? I don’t want to be the one thinking I’m fine, and ending up getting called in for a nice little chat that turns out to be “you’ve been insufficient on X, Y, and Z and you’re on a PIP” and me standing there with no proof except my word that I did X, Y, and Z to the required performance metrics.

    (I realize this may seem a bit like putting the cart before the horse, but I’ve been tweaking and polishing my cover letter and resume with considerable assistance from AAM’s samples, so the interview gods smiling on me is really in other people’s hands. What is in *my* hands 100% is being able to perform to any job metrics, and be able to have justifiable reasons why or why not.)

  228. Lentils*

    I’m a bit late to this thread, but I have a couple questions since my wife is still job-hunting and starting to lose confidence:

    1) Is there a particular expectation that someone could have about how many interviews they might get in a short time period (i.e. per week)? She had her father (who hasn’t been job hunting in decades) recently say to her that she should be having “two interviews a day” which I think is unreasonable, but she isn’t sure anymore.

    2) Is there such a thing as hiring managers being able to “smell the stink of desperation on you”? If she’s been doing basically everything Alison has said to do on applications and being friendly and professional at job interviews, there is no reason to assume that that would be a factor in her not getting hired, correct?

    1. CAA*

      Two interviews per day is ridiculous! How many interviews she will get depends on how many jobs she applies for and how qualified she is for them. I think the best I ever did was 6 interviews out of 14 submissions, and I considered that to be a pretty great response rate.

      I’ve interviewed a lot of people, and I can’t say I’ve ever smelt “the stink of desperation”, nor would I necessarily rule someone out if I knew they were desperate. Maybe if desperation made someone behave so obsequiously that it made me uncomfortable, I would turn them down, but otherwise just needing a job really badly is not an automatic disqualifier. However, I also don’t hire people just because they need jobs badly. They have to have the right skills and a desire to do this particular job.

    2. Luna123*

      1) Personally, having two job interviews in a single day sounds crazy to me. I’d want to spend time preparing for one interview at a time, and then after the interview I’d want to go home and decompress, not jump into another interview.

    3. nep*

      Agree with CAA and Luna123. Two interviews a day makes no sense — not realistic, and not even desirable, for the reasons Luna123 states well.
      It’s a brutal process and yes — confidence seems to dwindle away. Easier said than done, but it’s important not to take non-responses or rejections personally — not to take them as a complete rebuke of one’s competence and hireability. All your wife can do keep putting out the best cover letters and resumes she can and remain her own best friend and cheerleader in all this. Wishing you both all the best.

    4. Thlayli*

      It is all so field dependent. If you were looking for a position stacking shelves, two interviews a day would be reasonable. If you are looking for a position as CEO of a Fortune 500 company, 2 interviews a day would be ridiculous. It sounds like her dad is giving advice based on the olden days, when you started out in a low position for which 2 interviews a day might be reasonable, and then worked your way up from there. Also some people can sense desperation, and you do give off fear pheromones when you are nervous. So yes, some people can actually “smell” fear and desperation etc. But unles they are a sociopath they will just chalk it up to being nervous in s job interview, and won’t judge you harshly for it.

      I know this isn’t the question you asked – but has you wife considered getting a simple entry level job while she is job hunting? She doesn’t have to put it on her resume if it doesn’t improve it, but it would keep a little bit of money coming in and the psychological benefits would be enormous. There’s tons of research that unemployment is so bad for your mental health. Having any little job would be useful. I worked as an office admin part time between my last two engineering project manager roles. It was low pay but a lot of fun.

    5. MissDissplaced*

      Trust me, I’ve done a LOT of job hunting in the last 10 years!
      An expectation of 2 interviews a day is ridiculous. I have had it happen to me, but it was very much an exception.
      I would count it a very good and productive week to have a mix, for example: 5-6 applications, 1-2 email requests for more info and/or scheduling something, 1-2 phone screens and 1 live interview. And sometimes that doesn’t even happen!

      The best advice I have is that you have to be consistent at applying for jobs. A lot of people send out a bunch of applications and then stop as though the interviews will come rolling in. It doesn’t work that way! Better to apply more selectively, but consistently.

  229. couldn't think of any good username*

    So I recently had a phone interview for a senior management level position at a company a few days ago. I thought the phone interview went decently well and the interviewer candidly answered all my questions.

    That being the case, she mentioned that there was an issue which was increasing in the last few years and they were looking for someone to essentially work on, and fix those issues. They currently have someone in the position but that individual stepped down since they had a difficult time managing those issues.

    Now, after that phone interview, I sent a thank you letter along with a one page list of recommendations with bullet points on what they might be able to do to reduce said issues. Since I had limited information on what was causing those issues to occur, I limited what I could recommend.

    Did I over do it, was it presumptuous? I honestly am not sure if I helped or hurt my chances but I felt it was worth a gamble. As much as I would love the job, I would be fine if I didn’t get the position.

  230. Luna123*

    I just wanted to come in and celebrate because I just applied for my exact job (with slightly more duties) at a bigger company. It pays more and offers benefits, and I’m really hopeful I’ll get a call back!

    Okay, I also wanted to complain, too, because my mother keeps saying that I should bring in my letter of termination to my next interview “to show how crazy my boss was.” IMO that would just make *me* look crazy!!! Also, the letter keeps saying my coworkers and I ~stole time~ by talking to each other, and that’s not really what I want an interviewer to see, you know?

    2. StellaBella*

      Agree with Thlayli, do not do this. Your mom is wrong. Show her our replies. She likely wants to protect you and make sure others know you are a good person, which is great support from your mom. But this is not professional in the least.

      1. Luna123*

        Definitely! I keep shutting her down and telling her I’d look like a loon, and even if she doesn’t stop suggesting dumb advice, I think I’ll be pretty good at not following it :)

  231. The Newbie*

    Hi, it’s my first time posting on here. I graduated in December and have since obtain an internship, contract job, and still work my weekend job. So far, things just haven’t been working out like I planned. My contract job lost our first client after negotiations didn’t pan out, so it’s in the air. In my internship, I’m doing mostly mundane work that no one has time to do, and my weekend job stresses me out. A job is a job, but after 6 years of schooling and 2 degrees, this was not how I wanted to start out. I’m in a better position than my fellow graduates though, who are still looking. I’m in the tech and creative field, which people say is in demand. It doesn’t seem so, and now I’m just bitter. Hopefully the experience I get from these short term jobs will lead to something better.

    1. Thlayli*

      Hang in there! It’s o my been three months. I would suggest you keep job hunting anyway In case something better comes up.

  232. No history*

    So I need advice about building a work history for when I re-enter the workforce. I’m in my early 30s and staying home with some little kids now. I’m going to go back to school for accounting soon. This summer or fall. My work history; through bad choices, bad luck, and being a bit of a fuck up; doesn’t have past employers who aren’t now personal friends who would give a good reference if I could even find them. Short review in reverse order: tried being a freelance massage therapist with no luck. Receptionist for my psychiatrist who invested herself into my life and severely over medicated me and refused to let me change doctors. Walked out with no notice from a mall snack place I had worked on and off 12 years because the manager said she wouldn’t do anything about sexual harassment against me and high school kids by other employee. Fired for being rude to a customer from now closed coffee shop.
    So yeah both my fault and bad luck. Not great jobs for a resume in that field anyway. And surely I’ll get some kind of internship or student work? Do you still do that when you’re returning to school in your 30s?
    Can anyone think of anything I can do in the mean time that would be a good start to working on this problem? Volunteering at the library sounds respectable. But probably not very relevant? Working now would be very hard with childcare.
    (Btw I’m way less of a fuck up now. Growing up and getting my mental health in order is awesome!)

    1. couldn't think of any good username*

      First, you should stop calling yourself a “f-up” You’re damaging your own self worth. As for internships, you can usually find internships that pay decently well at city jobs (depending on the city) Those along with volunteer work would really help along those lines and pad your resume a bit.

      As for your work history, you could focus on being a massage therapist and parent without listing the other stuff if you wish. You could mention that your lack work history is because you wanted to see you kids grow up and now that they are older, you wanted to finally finish your degree and make them proud, etc etc.

      Basically frame it in some type of positive light. Also, don’t talk about or even bring up your medical issues or problems during a interview.

      1. No history*

        Oh I don’t really consider myself one, even back then. Just not great at picking and working at jobs. And i definitely wouldn’t mention that I used to have bad anxiety or something like that.

        Thanks for the advice about framing it. I like it c:

    2. Argh!*

      Adulthood is a big plus. And if you take up accounting, when you apply for jobs, nobody will think ill of you for working at low-level jobs in the past. You don’t have to say why you left any of them. They all sound like crap jobs! Someone who thinks accounting is interesting will not think “Why did she leave that wonderful mall job?”

      There are probably a lot of volunteering opportunities around. The library is a good start, since you have kids who presumably will read books from there. Some libraries have volunteers come in to help poor people with their taxes. Helping those volunteers could be good experience. They wouldn’t let you do taxes for them but you could screen people in line to be sure they had the right documents with them or something.

      Good luck!

    3. MissDissplaced*

      First, I congratulate you on going back to school. It’s not an easy thing as as adult, but I think you will find it worthwhile. As for the history, most of these weren’t great jobs! Really, the only one most would give weight to is the receptionist job. You can list it without using her as a reference.
      Going forward: Until you get an internship through school, the best thing for you would be to volunteer. Preferably, something office-related, but if it’s something with your kids, that can work as well. Basically, eith the volunteer work you want to show that you are trustworthy and reliable at the job, even if it’s only 1 day a week. So choose it carefully! Make sure you can commit.

    4. Ledgerman*

      Hi there! I went back to school for accounting & finance in my late twenties, and I can assure you these old jobs won’t be a problem. You’ve got exactly the right idea about internships and other works to update the resume with relevant experience while you’re getting your degree. Accounting internships actually pay fairly well, which is a big plus. I would take on other volunteer opportunities only if you’re passionate about it! There are also accounting-related student orgs you can get involved with, and they tend to organize a lot of great volunteer work.

      What I would bring forward and highlight about your prior work experience are the transferable skills. You might not think it, but that mall job? So valuable to employers who want to see that you can work under pressure and be customer-facing! Receptionist? Great experience working in an office environment, probably helped lay some key fundamentals if you sit down & think about it. The only thing I might leave off is the massage therapy, unless you can think of a good transferable skill there. I would book an appt with your campus career center and talk it through with them.

      Best of luck! It’s gonna be great!

  233. Argh!*

    Very late to the party this week!

    I’m so depressed. Yet another work friend is leaving due to the toxic atmosphere here. I had lunch with her this week and although I’m happy for her, I’m really going to miss her.

    Then later, I met one of the new hires who is working in a newly-invented department. I need her help with something and she knows exactly how to help me. She’s smart, and friendly, and new to the organization. I thought “Wow, one friend leaves and maybe a new one arrives,” but then immediately I thought “Nah, she’ll leave in a year. Why bother getting to know her?”

    … but then I’d be reinforcing the toxicity of the place. It’s a downward spiral.

    1. Clarice Fitzpatrick*

      Oh no, that really sucks.Are there any job possibilities on the horizon? It really sounds like a sinking ship. In the meantime, it definitely doesn’t hurt to build connections with non-toxic, friendly people. Even if it’s sad when they leave, better to have not only a good network but also some good memories and friendships.

      1. Argh!*

        I had an interview recently and I’m waiting to hear back. It’s hundreds of miles away, so I would be yet another good person flying the coop. And… I’d have no friends where I’m going, but it would be worth it.

        I do have a few friends left who are cheerful and friendly… and get crap from their bosses, too. I’ll miss them when I go.

  234. dd88FOUR*

    I work as an online support team member, and we have volunteers here from time to time. One of them is a woman who seems nice, and works very hard. However, she often has a bad odour. and it’s near wretching to be around for a while. Maybe she is sick, who knows? however, how do i handle this? i’m not her supervisor technically, though i have to have a hand in managing all volunteers at some level.

    1. Thlayli*

      I think if you search the archives here you’ll find some advice on this. I think I remember a couple of related letters.

  235. dd88FOUR*

    I have a crush on my manager at work. she’s about 48, not a model, but that’s not does it for me necessarily. i feel uncomfortable looking at her due to this, so how do i handle it?

    2. Thlayli*

      It’s unlikely you’ll be able to avoid looking at her. So you’re just going to have to put up with feeling a little uncomfortable for a while.

      Some people have good results from squashing down/ignoring their feelings. And for some people it can help to internally acknowledge the feeling first, then let it go, rather than trying to squash it down. So internally if you catch yourself thinking:
      “She looks lovely today. I’m so attracted to her.” Or something like that, you Just acknowledge it directly to yourself. “Yes she is very attractive. Now time to get back to work”. Try NOT to leer when doing this as that is super gross. Maybe practice in front of a mirror while thinking about her.

      Also focus on the fact that she’s not your idealised crush, she’s a real person with real flaws. And remind yourself of all the reasons it would be a bad idea to get together with her.

    3. Susan1*

      Do you have someone else to connect with romantically?
      It’s a good thing that you are aware of it and trying to find a solution. Could it help to write a journal “to her” explaining your feelings?

    4. Rhymetime*

      I had this experience once with a manager at work. What worked for me was having a trusted friend, outside of the situation, that I could talk it out with. For me, verbalizing my attraction to him to someone else helped me validate that this was how I was feeling. Talking it out removed its power as a secret, and that was enough to dissipate my attraction entirely. I ended up working with this manager comfortably after that, he never knew about it, and ultimately we remained platonic friends after we both had moved on to other jobs.

  237. Annie Mouse*

    Very late in the day here but is it odd to have a clear target for where I want my career to go and start working on things towards it, when I haven’t finished the training for my current role yet (and won’t for over a year) and I can’t begin to apply for that career path for at least 3 years?

    1. Overeducated*

      No, I don’t think that’s odd. Your goals can always change as you get more experience but having long term goals isn’t strange. I mean, that’s where the “where do you want to be in 10 years?” interview question comes from.

    2. Thlayli*

      Not odd to have a goal and a plan. However if “working on things towards it” is affecting how fast or how well you are learning your current role, that would be odd. Mastering your new role should be your priority at the moment. If someone has told you they think it’s odd, maybe thats an indicator that they think you aren’t focused strongly enough on your current role.

    3. nep*

      Not odd at all. I can see how this can work well for some people. The exact goal/plan perhaps shifts some over time, but in the moment it informs and motivates what you’re doing.
      All the best

    4. Annie Mouse*

      Thank you, I spent the day with a speacialised team yesterday and I want to head my career in that direction once I’ve been qualified long enough. I’ve not mentioned it to anyone really yet but was just wondering if it was unusual.
      The working towards it is mostly in terms of fitness as I’ll have to up my strength and endurance capabilities, and I’m just planning on grabbing any possible learning opportunity that might give me some information or experience that will help. It’ll all help with my training and job at the moment anyway but I think having a goal in mind will help spur me on, especially on the fitness side.

  238. StellaBella*

    This likely won’t get much traction, and just want to share more. than anything.
    My taught term at uni is finished as of Friday (yesterday!) and I am happy that I have managed a good overall grade average (I think a B will be my overall score across all my modules). I have a couple of weeks off now for a break and to start gathering research material for my MSc thesis.
    It has been tough emotionally and intellectually however, and I have enjoyed learning all kinds of new skills. But yesterday and the past 3 weeks have been super tough because of a classmate who is just a real jerk to all of us women in class. Six of us women in class have had abusive texts (name calling and belittling sent to some of us, in group messages even!), verbal abuse, and general right-wing jackassery to manage from this guy, who interrupts class and is dismissive of others’ opinions. He is 53/54, white, and has a history over the 7 months of being really just horrible.
    Yesterday we filed a complaint with the university, with the course director, with the guy’s tutor, and with the MSc advisor (who was made aware of his crappy behaviours in December). We will move forward in a couple of weeks with this (after Easter), and the univ is taking it seriously, like “they were working past 5pm on a Friday before holidays” seriously. He will have a report drawn up and get the chance to have his say and go to awareness training, and hopefully will not retaliate against any of us. We all thankfully only have 2 actual in-class days over the next two months so don’t have to see him much.
    So…. I am glad to be on a bit of a break to have some time to be kind to myself and to spend time with my cat, cleaning my house, puttering in my garden, and enjoying some sleep. Happy weekend, all!

    2. Susan1*

      Sounds like you are doing well despite the circumstances, and it’s great that you have people around you who are in the same boat.

  239. Susan1*

    Hi everybody! I am working at a government-affiliated organization that has a payband grid associated with it. I decided to contribute more by taking on a harder position. I have been working at the organization for 2 years and moved up the ladder from step 1 (start), 2 (6 mos.), 3 (1 yr), 4 (2 yrs) and about to change to step 5 (3 yrs) in a few months. A big part of the reason why I took on the new role was for the challenge and to be compensated for it. I was offered the job and was very excited. I thought that I would be offered the job at the same step. Instead they offered me step 2 (6 mos). I since negotiated with HR to understand why and they offered me step 3 (1 yr) and are insisting that this is correct, referencing a manual in which it says that promotions shouldn’t be LESS than the next pay rate that would have been available to the employee in the former payband. Basically they are giving me a raise of less than 2%. I am feeling shocked and demoralized.

    My question is – do I continue to speak to HR for them to talk to my manager or should I talk to my manager directly? If I talk to my manager what do I say? I really don’t enjoy talking about money at all and tried to keep her out of it because until now I’ve been able to resolve salary issues because HR was not following the union policies. Now it seems that things are more up in the air. I have already accepted the role. Just looking for some support / advice. Tired of this constant advocacy for every role / step change. Thank you!

    1. Jerry Vandesic*

      You should read the manual yourself, and fully understand the rules related to moving to a new position. If they got it wrong, you need to be able to argue your case and point out their mistake.

      1. Susan1*

        Thanks for your comments, Jerry! I should add – I have read the entire contents about a promotion. It talks about not paying LESS than I would be making in the lower payband. It doesn’t mention a maximum or a guideline for the step for a promotion. So they are not having it wrong.

        This is more of a vague area, where I need to advocate for myself.

        My husband is saying that I should say that 2 months later I’d be a step further ahead and so my new pay would be a step beyond that in that scenario. Instead they are suggesting a lower step and that it would be renewed to the next step in a year from now instead of in June.

        My issue is who should I talk to (or who to talk to first) – HR or the manager? And how do you get in the mindframe of a salary conversation where you need to advocate for yourself?

        Thanks.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          If it is a process or rules question, talk to HR. Managers often misunderstand the rules that they need to follow, not because they aren’t smart, but because knowing these kinds of rules is such a small part of their job; for HR knowing the rules is a big part of their job.

  240. Late to the party*

    So, about 2 weeks ago, I was contacted by director x and asked to send my resume to a specific manager and told that manager would be in contact. I have yet to receive a response, not even an acknowledgment of receipt. I was going to email director x back to let them know I did follow through with their request, but never received a response. I was thinking about asking to verify the email address in an effort to make it not seem like I’m pointing fingers. Can you all help me with the wording? Thanks in advance!

    1. Susan1*

      I think it’s a bit early. Contacting the person’s manager is going to make them feel pressured. Give it another week, at least.

      1. Susan1*

        Also after the week or so, consider reaching out to the manager again before contacting the director. If/when you contact the director you can word it as an update and say that you emailed the manager and hope to hear back soon.

  241. Omitted Detail*

    Is it okay to not reveal to an interviewer about how you did a particular job task in your current job? And is there a way to avoid revealing the particular job task?

    I don’t want to reveal it because my current company have very negligent ways of doing that task, and I think sharing how I did the task in my current company will make me seem unprofessional and hurt my chances of getting hired.

    I am willing to reveal job tasks that were done more professionally in my current job, but I don’t want to mention that particular unprofessional job duty.

    I have omitted describing that task in my resume, but what if interviewers still ask me if I have experience doing that task? What if they found out through other ways that I have done that task (i.e. my role is mentioned in job reference calling)?

    1. WillowSunstar*

      Can’t you just explain to them that you were trained to do it X way, and told by your previous boss that you *had* to do it X way, even though Y way was better?

    2. Someone else*

      If they bring it up, be up front that the way previous place requires it be done is X but you are aware that is not best practice and your preferred method would be Y.

  242. Nicole*

    Alison thought I should ask here—what are everyone’s favorite/go-to ways to cover tattoos? Spring is (hopefully) finally here and I’d like more options than “wear long sleeves.”

    I have them on my arms & chest, though the arms are what I’m concerned about.

    TIA!

  243. Rhymetime*

    I had an interview yesterday for a nonprofit job that I’m excited about, talking with a panel of six people. Overall I think it went well. Two of the interviewers mentioned at the end that mutual contacts had put in a word for me, which was good to hear and not something I solicited myself. I’m now following up with personalized emails to each of them thanking them for the opportunity, a practice that is a must in my field of fundraising.

    My question is about whether or not to address my response to a question that I think I bobbled early in the interview when I was still nervous, especially since it came from the hiring manager I would be reporting to. He started the interview by asking me to summarize my sense of the mission of the nonprofit I was applying to. That went fine. Where I stumbled was in his next question, to describe the mission of my current nonprofit which is a comparable. I think what he was getting at was to see if I’d done my homework and tease out how the two organizations are different, but I didn’t articulate my current organization’s mission well. This of course is ridiculous because in any other setting, I could rattle off our mission statement and summarize it instantly, an important skill in fundraising. I actually do this all the time in conversations and grant proposals.

    My question is if I should directly address this in my email to the hiring manager and tactfully explain that I was undone by being nervous early in the interview, or just let it go because the rest was positive, and hope that they’ll get that this was an anomaly when I was feeling awkward with a group of strangers during the first question of an interview. What do you suggest for crafting my thank you email to the hiring manager?

  244. Symphony*

    I’m currently a music teacher with a degree in instrumental music education. As much as I love the job, I’m intensely stressed out and am at the point where, for my own wellbeing, I need to step into another line of work that doesn’t involve being responsible for children. Further training/certifications aren’t completely out of the question, but it would need to be something that could be done in a fairly short timeframe. I’ll be paid through the summer, but beyond that would be living on savings.

    Any advice regarding fields I should consider or look into?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      It’s the end of my work week and my brain is fried, so maybe this is a terrible idea, but I was wondering if you could capitalize on your school instructional background by transitioning over into corporate instruction or corporate training. The “thing” you’d be teaching, of course, wouldn’t be music (or maybe it would, I guess that depends on the corporation). I did a quick Google search on “corporate training” just to see what would pop up, and it retrieved a TON of hits; I also saw “corporate training jobs near me” as an actual search query. Hope this helps.

    2. Julianne*

      If being responsible for one child at a time (versus groups of children if you teach in schools) is viable, you could do private lessons, although I imagine it would be difficult to match your salary on that alone.

      If staying near the arts is important, are there roles at cultural institutions that would allow you to promote the arts without teaching music? I have acquaintances who have worked in education/outreach positions at museums, theaters, etc. Or at non-profits that advocate for the arts, or perhaps in policy?

      1. Symphony*

        Individual children would be fine, but you’re right. I’d have to work in a fairly large studio to even begin to be able to make a living that way in my area, unfortunately.

        I’m investigating area museums and such. That’s a good idea. Thanks!

  245. WillowSunstar*

    So I need some advice. I have this coworker. She is not well-liked by other members of the team. I found out shortly after I was hired on last Sept. that she dragged her white coworkers to HR with false allegations of racism. Apparently she is obsessed with “tone of voice.” She has now falsely accused me of being mean to her twice, even though all I had said was “what” to her. This woman also makes a lot of excuses for being gone the past year, has used up all of her FMLA leave due to a sick child who was going to have surgery. When I talked to her once on the phone and she was ostensible using FMLA, she was actually at a science museum class activity with her kid, who was supposedly very sick. One time last month, she used multiple excuses for the same day — supposedly she had both gotten food poisoning and someone had supposedly also robbed her. She makes a lot of mistakes on her work as well.

    Now, am I the only one who thinks something weird is going on here? I realize it’s possible to have very bad luck. I did have an apartment that was robbed several years ago, but I talked with the landlord and the police that evening, and still went to work again the next day. Granted, I moved later, but I didn’t use the robbery as an excuse to not be at work.

    Part of me thinks she is looking for another job, but why not just say “I have an appointment” instead of making up excuse after excuse? It’s find to look for other jobs if you’re not happy where you work.

    I have been warned by other coworkers that this coworker also like to try and drag people into her drama. Whatever happened to just going to work, doing your work, and going home again? Is that not a thing anymore?

    1. valentine*

      White people can’t accurately assess their kyricist actions, including tone. Lead by example in your level of politeness and perhaps be more formal than you’d like, in order to avoid ambiguity. So don’t say “What?” but “What was that?”, “Would you mind repeating that?”, “Can you say that one more time?”, or “What can I help you with?” Mentally file her personal life as “Not my business” and don’t dwell on her chaos. If you are having to pick up her slack, address that with a supervisor in terms of what you can, not can’t, do in a certain timeframe, without blaming it on anyone, especially their rightful benefits. Don’t participate in criticizing this person, especially if it’s your supervisor doing it. Assessing her work is a different matter, but it needs to be “Her deliverable contained x errors,” not “She did a piss-poor job because she’s never here”. Focus on doing your best with what is yours to decide.

      1. WillowSunstar*

        I have never criticized this person. The “What” was actually in response to my boss (who is white) asking me a question and I had headphones on. It wasn’t even in response to her.

  246. Canadian Teapots*

    An update! I have a phone interview coming up in a few days, and to give a bit of context the person doing the calling is the company’s diversity recruiter. It’ll also be my first phone interview ever!

    They haven’t explicitly specified the position involved, but I do know that this is likely a follow-up to an application I made which was later declined (which is not a surprise as the company is large and presumably gets many applicants). I also know the call is expected to last >30 minutes, so that suggests more than a preliminary phone screen.

    Given that, would it be appropriate to ask, early on in the call, if the interviewer is gathering information about me to see if I’m a good fit for a number of possible positions, or one specific position?

    Also, more generally, what are some good probing questions I can ask, since I’m not entirely sure if *a* specific position is in mind? (i.e. could I still ask the “what differentiates a good worker from an excellent worker in a given position” question?)

    Thanks AAMers for your comments and suggestions, if you have any!

  247. August*

    I’m a bit late to the party, but if anyone has any advice re: my resume, I’d really appreciate it! In my previous internship at a think tank, my job duties consisted mainly of researching, writing, and editing policy documents. I’ve been going over Alison’s posts about focusing on achievements rather than job descriptions in your resume, and one achievement in my previous internship was that my writing skills were looked upon well enough by the full-time staff that I was asked to write an introduction for the Director’s book.

    I’ve been hesitating to put this on my resume for three reasons:
    1) The book had nothing to do with my regular policy work– it was the Director’s personal memoir of her past, her struggles, and her climb up to high-level positions in our field. It had a lot of very personal information, and she insisted that I not show the draft I received to anyone outside of our office.
    2) The Director primarily wanted my draft of the introduction to serve as a sort of outline of what she could later include herself, so I don’t think it will be included verbatim in the published book. Subsequently, I don’t think I’ll be credited once the book is published.
    3) Really, I’m just feeling a little insecure, and part of me is convinced that the Director asked me to write the intro as some sort of busywork. I mean, I was an intern! Why would I have been asked over the other policy analysts!

    Should I include something about this in my resume? I don’t have any “proof” that this ever happened to show a hiring manager, although I’m sure it could be corroborated by my references at the internship.

    1. Hmm*

      I’m not sure how much it would improve your resume, considering you’ve done other writing work for them which is (I assume) already on there, and related to your work. It could hurt your relationship with the director, as well. Unless you’re looking for positions that want you to do memoir writing, the accomplishment isn’t that they offered you that extra writing, but that your work writing was good.

      I might bring it up in an interview (the director was so fond of my writing I helped write the intro to her book!) instead of on the resume. But I know nothing about your field, so this could all be wrong (though hopefully not!), good luck sorting it out!

  248. BW*

    Hi everyone! I had an interview on Friday which was long answered extensive (had pre-work before the interview, did a classroom lesson as I work I no schools, multiple role plays, spoke with a student so they could watch me process a kid having a behavior issue, etc.). I got an email later that evening asking for a good time for a 45 minute follow up call on Monday or Tuesday. I have no idea what this call is – another interview? An offer? Any help with ideas about what this is would be very appreciated!

  249. Q.*

    Unsolved mysteries: Every day now, around 11, another employee here moves from his two-monitor desk away from me to a two-monitor desk right next to me. Both computers have the same capabilities, and no one takes his seat when he moves. As April Ludgate is my spirit animal, I don’t like this. I’d just ask why, but I tend to come off like…well, April Ludgate. Theories?

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