open thread – March 30-31, 2018

by Alison Green on March 30, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Rowan*

    Inspired by a comment on another post earlier this week – what are some examples of *good* fictional bosses?

    Fiction abounds with bad people doing things badly, including managing. But how about the opposite – fictional role models for the managerially inclined? Any nominees for Best Fictional Boss?

    Mine is Det. Supt. Sandra Pullman, played by Amanda Redman, on the British TV show New Tricks. She has the tough job of heading a new team of retired cops put together to solve cold cases. She manages to get them in line with modern police procedures (no, you can’t just pick the lock for a quick look inside someone’s home!), earn their respect, and turn them into a shockingly effective team.

    1. MuseumChick*

      Aaron Hotchner from Criminal Minds. He holds his people accountable, is straightforward and clear in his expectations, but also compassionate and understand.

      1. Abelard*

        I miss Hotch! I mean I get the character had to leave the show because the actor did something stupid and inapporpriate and as much as I like Emily showing her leadership skills–I really miss Hotch!
        (Also, I’m a season behind because I only watch once it gets to netflix.)

        2. Observer*

          I’d say that “stupid and inappropriate” understates the case pretty significantly.

          1. DArcy*

            Very much so, given that he physically assaulted a producer — and this was after already being given a second chance after a previous altercation back in 2013, and reportedly also a years-long history of being verbally abusive to pretty much everyone around him.

      2. grace*

        AAAAAALLLLL of this! He’s so great at knowing his team’s strengths and weaknesses and quietly being there in the background if they need him, but not overstepping, either.

      3. knitcrazybooknut*

        The only thing I don’t like about Hotch is when he returns from his wife’s death and is grouchy at everyone and doesn’t have to apologize for his bad behavior. It’s an awful trope that is very common in TV, but that doesn’t make it right. Everyone just “understands” around him, instead of him having to make things right. It bugs me every time I see it.

        Other than that, I really miss his character. But every time I hear his character mentioned, I do mutter, “shin-kicker” to my husband and we bust up laughing. Totally inappropriate behavior.

        1. A Non E. Mouse*

          But every time I hear his character mentioned, I do mutter, “shin-kicker” to my husband and we bust up laughing. Totally inappropriate behavior.

          I like you.

      6. Ann O'Nemity*

        I don’t know if I’d like working for Holt. Don’t get me wrong; he’s a great character! But he’s so precise, exacting, and bureaucratic. I like the ability to be agile and even experimental. I don’t know what I’d do if I had to have all the proper forms and such strict adherence to process.

        1. Anna*

          I am right there with you, but working for a bureaucracy like government, it’s all because somebody somewhere is going to ask why you don’t have that form in triplicate.

    3. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Col. Sherman T. Potter from M*A*S*H.

      Strong when he needed to be, gentle when he needed to be. Hard-line military when he needed to be. Flexible when he needed to be. He truly cared about the people in the camp. A heart of gold.

      2. AnonEMoose*

        I so agree with this. He had his priorities firmly in order – saving lives mattered, the medicine mattered – the rest wasn’t important. And it took him no time at all to figure out who was best at doing that.

        M*A*S*H* is the only show I know of that survived the replacement of that many major cast members (Col. Blake, Frank Burns, Trapper John, Radar).

          1. Jersey's mom*

            In fact, ER had one of the most flamboyant scenes of how to get rid of a bad boss. Dr, Romano was a complete terror, incredibly rude and cruel to the other doctors and staff. The writers has a malfunctioning medical helicopter cut his arm off, and just as he was starting to come to terms with not being the best pera ring room surgeon in Chicago, the had another medical helicopter malfunction, fall out of the sky and crash onto him, then blow up. I think I cheered that episode.

            2. JeanB in NC*

              Oh I definitely cheered! I hated him so much. I don’t know who came up with that idea but I loved it!

          2. Mrs. Fenris*

            Less exciting than Romano, but I would have liked to work for Kerry Weaver. She was a little too fond of The Process, but I need people like that in my life. She had high standards, she really cared about the work, and she saw her staff as people.

      3. Muriel Heslop*

        He was such a great leader. He treated everyone with respect, no matter what (which couldn’t have been easy with that crew) and wasn’t afraid to be hard when he had to be. A wonderful leader.

        4. Gingerblue*

          Her son’s snake-based office classification system continues to delight me, especially the fact that Ivan has trained his own boss to use it.

      5. the muse*

        I’m in the “cool guy, terrible boss” camp on Miles. I think he could generate a stack of AAM questions all by himself:

        My Boss Is In Love With Me And Trying To Veto My Choice of Husband

        My Boss Is Still Kind Of In Love With Me And Won’t Let Me Quit His Army

        My Boss Won’t Delegate

        My Boss Has A Major Medical Issue And Is Making Me Hide It From His Boss

        My Boss Still Won’t Delegate And Literally Kneecapped The Person He Was Rescuing Because Of It

        My Boss’s Girlfriend Is The Next In Command And He Doesn’t See A Problem With This

        My Boss Is Sleeping With His Bodyguard

        My Boss Goes On Communication Blackouts For Literally Years

        My Boss Is Making Me Do Dubious Accounting To Hide That We Can’t Make Payroll

        My Boss Apparently Doesn’t Believe In Promotion Unless You Are Related To Him Or In A Relationship With Him

        My Boss Threw My Promotion At My Head During An Argument

        He’d be great in hiring, just not so great at management.

        1. Gingerblue*

          I’m with you. Love Miles, but dear god. Though I supposed he’s an even worse subordinate.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I love Leslie (and I’m almost done with my annual P&R re-watch), but I have to disagree with you– I think she’s a terrible boss! She doesn’t listen, she expects unwavering devotion from her team, she plays favorites, she’s mean to Jerry for no reason, and she is terrible at delegating. Her attempts to “support” April in the last season are cringe-worthy. Again, love her, and I wish I had someone in my life who wanted as much for me as Leslie does for her people, but she would also drive me crazy with her inability to see past her own ideas.

        Ron was also a bad boss, for what it’s worth. Chris was marginally ok. You know who would have been a good boss? Barney from the accounting firm!

        1. all aboard the anon train*

          She also has no boundaries and does a lot of forced fun and expects you to be on her level 1000% of the time.

          I’d probably quit the week I started if I had a boss like Leslie.

        2. General Ginger*

          I always felt so bad for the accountants! They just wanted Ben Wyatt to work for them so much, and he always quit, even after they published Cones of Dunshire.

        3. Antilles*

          I’ve always wondered if Ron would be a decent boss in a completely different job in private industry. He’s obviously horrifically bad as the Parks&Rec director – openly ignoring the public, intentionally hiring the least productive employees possible, stonewalling other departments, abdicating all leadership to Leslie, tolerating all sorts of ridiculousness, and so forth.
          But how much of that is just purely an outflow from the fact that he doesn’t even respect the existence of local government, much less have any desire to be part of it?

      2. Temperance*

        I think she’s such a horrible boss! She overreaches into her employees’ personal lives, and she’s kind of just a shitshow of a person.

      3. Indoor Cat*

        Dude, as a character? Absolutely love her. As a friend? Probably we’d get along well; on many “Which P&R Character Are You?” quizzes, I’m usually a Ben Wyatt and sometimes an Ann Perkins. I have some irl friends who match Leslie’s enthusiasm, optimism, and somewhat madcap creative style, and I love their company.

        But holy heck, as a boss: nope. Nope to Knope. I think if Ann Perkins actually had to work for Leslie Knope, their friendship would come to a firey end, which would be tragic on many levels.

    6. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Leslie Knope from Parks & Recreation. She might be a bit exhausting at times, but man, is she supportive, thorough, and will do almost anything to boost morale! :D

      1. Antilles*

        Was going to say the same thing.
        She isn’t technically director of the Parks Department (though in practice, she kind of is given Ron’s attitude), but is a fairly good boss in the first few seasons of the show. She accepts most of her staff even with their odd quirks, continuously pushes her staff members to get better, takes her job seriously, seems to generally interact well with her ‘customers’ (the public), and is really competent.

        1. fposte*

          I love Leslie Knope, but in the real world she’d be a horrible boss–she has no boundaries whatsoever.

          2. Lil Fidget*

            I have a lot of friends who feel that they are Leslie or that she’s their spirit animal or whatever, but to me it always makes me cringe a little – yes, it’s great that she’s passionate and (tries to be) supportive, but to me her energy is so often misdirected and she’s all over the place – not at all a spirit animal for good leadership or professionalism IMO. (Of course I do recognize that it’s for comedic effect haha). To me a good leader should be calmer and more consistent.

            Of course, in my personal life I’m a total “liz lemon” so what do I know haha.

      2. General Ginger*

        Leslie is canonically the boss who will show up at your house in the middle of the night to rope you into working on a project. I love her as a character, but as a boss — no way.

      1. Antilles*

        I don’t know if they’ve retconned it differently since then, but a few years ago, it was actually explained that the reason is because Homer’s face and name are so generic that Mr. Burns literally cannot remember who he is. So Burns doesn’t actually realize that he’s hiring back the guy who (just quit / fired for gross incompetence / whatever).

        1. JS*

          I think this is accurate. During the “who shot Mr burns” 3 part episodes there was an entire story line around Mr Burns never remembering Homer.

    8. Lady Alys*

      John Putnam Thatcher (but maybe it’s easy to be a good boss when you have the perfect secretary, Miss Corsa…).

      3. tangerineRose*

        I love these books. And I agree. Thatcher seems like a good boss, and Miss Corsa is the perfect secretary.

        I also think it’s cool that even though this is a mystery series, Thatcher usually isn’t in any danger at all. That’s different from the regular mysteries I read, and it makes it sound less exciting, but I like the authors did something different, and it’s still interesting.

      1. MH*

        Omg yes – and I’m now almost crying thinking about his “guy in a hole” speech (great username btw!)

        1. Qmatilda*

          I used that speech for a large portion of my wedding toast at my best friend’s wedding. It still makes her cry when we talk about it.

          And yes, Leo would make a great boss.

          1. grace*

            This is the sweetest thing I’ve heard. I cry every time I see that episode because I know that speech is coming, honestly.

        2. LemonLyman*

          Thanks!

          That scene gets me, too! I almost added to my original comment, “As long as I’ve got a job, you’ve got a job.”

        1. Totally Minnie*

          I don’t know. Josh and Toby had a couple of good boss moments, but overall I don’t think I’d want to work for them on a day to day basis. Sam or CJ or Leo, though, sign me up right now.

          1. Justme, The OG*

            Josh was all over the place but he was always okay to Donna. I might agree about Toby though.

            1. all aboard the anon train*

              He was pretty condescending and sexist to Donna. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I love them both, but Josh didn’t always treat her great.

      3. General Ginger*

        “He’s a klutz, Mrs. Landingham. Your president is a geek!”

        Leo really is a great, supportive boss, though.

        1. Casuan*

          ps: the beverage in question should be Leo’s [non-alcoholic] favourite; although not water because according to President Bartlet it’s bad luck to toast with water

          1. Magenta Sky*

            As explained to me by a veteran friend, the toast is water for absent friends who won’t be coming home, and the cheapest whiskey you can find for those who will, or did. I have no idea how universal the custom is, though.

          2. Pam*

            I remember a British historical novel, set after James I abdicated, and went to France. The people trying to bring him and his son back would toast him over a bowl of H2O- for the king ‘over the water.’

    11. WoSoFan*

      In keeping with your first responder examples, I would submit Capt. Raymond Holt from Brooklyn 99, along with Chief Boden from Chicago Fire.
      Chief Boden tends to exemplify the “take care of your people” aspect of leadership and only butts heads with hire ups when it’s clear that moral reasoning > whatever bureaucratic nonsense higher headquarters is pushing.
      Capt. Holt is more of a rule stickler, but it’s clear that he wants to do the right thing for the city and his employees. The way that B99 addresses diversity through his (out of the closet and exceptionally stoic) character is a master’s class on humor that doesn’t degrade anyone.

      3. Yorick*

        I super love Boden! But I think it would be difficult to work at that firehouse if you wanted a separation between work and personal life. Mostly because of the other employees, but I don’t think Boden would really get it either.

        1. WoSoFan*

          For the real life fire dept folks–I’m curious if working in a firehouse just naturally means that there’s less separation between work an personal life.
          I served in the Navy and feel like some of the “separate work from personal” take in this blog just couldn’t apply those stuck on a warship at sea with their colleagues. No one asks for work advice here from a Navy ship, so I don’t object to that take, but I usually reflect on that for a second.

          1. Hobgoblin*

            Oh yeah, it’s almost impossible to separate work and personal life in a firehouse. Especially on 24 hours when you see each other sleeping, having just woken up, stuff that’s not normal in the professional world. Things that would weird me out in my office job don’t faze me at all at the firehouse. I’m a volunteer now and that’s easier to manage but, yeah, firehouses are a world of their own!

    12. Shishimai*

      Winter from the Shadow Campaigns books (she doesn’t start there, but she gets there!)

      Exactly as hard-nosed as the situation requires and no more, learning about leadership from the best, and able to combine a strong human factor with the determination to complete some fairly outrageous plans.

    13. Irene Adler*

      Col. Robert Gould Shaw in the movie Glory. He cared about the men. And suffered when they did.

    14. Kathleen_A*

      Captain Picard, of course. I mean, naturally.

      Kirk, not so much. A fun character to watch, but I wouldn’t have wanted him for a boss.

      1. Fiennes*

        Picard is a great boss. Supportive, understands his subordinates’ work and schedules, clear about expectations and time frames, decisive, even-tempered, but capable of being firm when needed.

        1. Kathleen_A*

          Yep, Sisko is another good one.

          I’m not so sure about Janeway. I quite like her (and at *times*, Voyager was a very good show), but she does sometimes come across as a little too Kirk-like.

        2. Tedious Cat*

          Picard is the captain we’d have in a perfect world. But Sisko’s the captain we need in the world we have.

      5. AnonEMoose*

        I would only have trouble working for Picard because I would be continually slipping in my own drool…

        2. Southern Ladybug*

          An occupational hazard I’d be willing to deal with to work on the Enterprise with him!

      7. Justme, The OG*

        I also think that Worf would be a good boss. Tough, but extremely clear on what is expected of you.

        1. Joan Callamezzo*

          Yes! He was so supportive (in a very gruff way) of Sito Jaxa in the episode “Lower Decks.”

    15. Archie Goodwin*

      Barney Miller.

      (Also, the writers on that series had a handle on bureaucracy such as few I’ve ever seen.)

          1. Akcipitrokulo*

            Yes – definite improvement from then on!

            Vetinari isn’t actually that bad either as long as he doesn’t kill you.

        2. periwinkle*

          Absolutely! He saw his employees as coppers, regardless of species or gender. Well, except maybe the vampire thing but I think he would have promoted Sally after he learned she was a good copper.

          I’d rather work for Moist von Lipwig, though. Lots of room for promotion once he gets things working and Vetinari moves him to the next opportunity for improvement…

      3. Lucky*

        My parents used to let me stay up late to watch Barney Miller when I was maybe 7-8. I’m sure that’s what triggered my love of comedy and true crime.

        1. Archie Goodwin*

          Your parents had excellent taste. :-) I watch it in reruns now, a half an episode before bed (wish it was on early enough that I could watch the whole thing.) It’s absolutely marvelous.

    16. Minerva McGonagall*

      Along the same lines as many above, I’d love to work for DCI Tom Barnaby from Midsomer Murders. Generally keeps good boundaries between home and work, clearly cares about his Sergeants as people, works hard to develop them, and encourages them to move on when they’re ready.

      1. AnonEMoose*

        Yes! Barnaby doesn’t expect any more of his sergeants than he expects of himself. And he’s always willing to listen to them, even when he thinks/knows they’re wrong. And when Troy expresses homophobia in one episode, Barnaby lets him know it isn’t ok without ever raising his voice or implying that Troy is a bad person – he just needs to change his perspective on that issue.

      3. AnonEMoose*

        Although I have to say, I think Joyce Barnaby deserves some kind of award for “Most Understanding Spouse Ever.”

    17. KMB213*

      Elizabeth McCord from Madam Secretary – she values each member of her team, but is strict when she needs to be.

      2. Alice Ulf*

        I was coming here to say the same! Glad I kept scrolling down. She’s the perfect combination of sensible and sympathetic.

    23. Bored IT Guy*

      Agent Gibbs from NCIS, President Kirkman from Designated Survivor, and Ender Wiggin from Ender’s Game (the book, not the movie)

        1. Amber T*

          Yeah, NCIS falls into that “too familiar” category where everyone is way up in each other’s business, and while the head smack is explained as something done out of familiarity to get someone to focus… meh.

          (I haven’t watched since Ziva left and I’m flat out refusing to believe certain storylines exist anymore, so my knowledge of the show is a few years old now. That’s how it used to be at least.)

          1. AnonEMoose*

            I have to admit, in my view, Tony was deeply deserving of a smack to the back of the head once in awhile (of course, I’ve only watched through Season 4 or 5, so far, I think).

            1. tangerineRose*

              Yeah, there were times when Tony got smacked in the head when I thought yep, he had that coming.

    24. Annie Mouse*

      Gibbs from NCIS, tough but fair and really cares about his team. I’d love to work for him. (At least the first 6 or so series that I’ve seen.)

      Mac Taylor from CSI NY for similar reasons, and Juan Cabrillo from The Oregon Files.

      Those three all run their teams tough but fairly, are loyal to their staff, care about them and wouldn’t expect their team to do things they wouldn’t do themselves.

      1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        Excellent example. Lead by example. Really cared about the people of Mayberry. Constantly forgave Barney for all of his goof-ups but only after a firm discussion.

      1. FD*

        I feel like her (the character’s) resume would be amazing.

        “Oversaw team of Super Sleuths responsible for tracking down international criminals obsessed with stealing national monuments”

        1. Megan*

          Her actual resume was pretty cool too. And did you know there’s an elementary school named after her?

    27. Junior Dev*

      Ben Sisko! I love the episodes of DS9 where he has to work out some complicated issue between crew members. I also love that he’s generally pretty soft spoken, so when he does get angry, you pay attention.

      1. StarHunter*

        This would be my other choice for Star Trek managers. Plus see my note in my other post about bald men :-)

    28. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Someone already said Leo McGarry, who would be my number one pick.
      Agent Cooper from The Blacklist is a great boss.
      Captain Renard from Grimm, when he wasn’t being evil. (I didn’t like where they went with his character.)

    30. GuitarLady*

      Lorelai Gilmore – seems like she does a good job both managing a large inn and running her own. Only issue I see with her is that she doesn’t do enough to shield the other staff from Michel.

    31. StarHunter*

      Capt Jean-Luc Picard of the USS Enterprise. Plus I have a thing for bald/mostly bald men :-)

    32. FD*

      Elend Venture, by the time he matures. He’s firm, leads by example, but always tries to consider if what he’s doing is right. He also isn’t afraid to ask for advice or admit when he doesn’t know something. Dalinar Kholin, too…Brandon Sanderson tends to write in people you’d like to work for.

    33. The Original Flavored K*

      Mitchell Ellison, from Daredevil/The Punisher. He was so reasonable with Ben Urich, and he was trying to help as much as was possible, and he’s been a great mentor to Karen Page. I would totally work for Ellison.

    34. Aardvark*

      Tony and Nat from Dreamland (Utopia) would be good if *their* bosses weren’t terrible! (I haven’t seen season 3 yet, so I could stand corrected)

      1. Parenthetically*

        Hahaha absolutely!! Tony is so competent and smart and constantly hamstrung by the imbeciles he reports to!

      1. Ri*

        I love Captain Jack, but given his history of flirting/sleeping with subordinates and frequent pattern of holding back essential information from his team, I’m not sure he’s a model boss. :-P

    36. Kate*

      Outing myself as a Freeform addict here, but I loved Jacqueline Carlyle from The Bold Type. I was expecting her to be more like Meryl Streep in The Devil Wears Prada, but instead she was supportive of her staff while still being a badass. Also, she’s played by Melora Hardin (Jan from The Office), and, I dunno, I thought she was just perfect.

      1. Lola Banks*

        YES! Jacqueline from The Bold Type is the only character to ever make me stop and say, “Wow, that is SUCH a good boss.”

      2. Erin*

        I think Jacqueline is great in a lot of ways, but in the breast cancer episode I think she pushed Jane too hard to talk about her mom and she also gave her unsolicited advice on her health which would make me really uncomfortable.

    37. Paper Librarian*

      I know they are criminals, but…Captain Mal from Firefly. He takes no bull, maintains boundaries, but still breaks his own rules when necessary.

      1. LemonLyman*

        Yes! He was a good boss. Since we’re on Sorkin shows (I had suggested Leo McGarry), Isaac Jaffy from Sporys night was an amazing boss, too.

    39. 30 Years in the Biz*

      Definitely Sister Julienne on “Call the Midwife”. She is competent, firm, fair, resourceful. She’s an excellent administrator. Her staff includes a diverse group: nuns, nurses, a few party girl nurses, and a handyman. She manages them all with kindness and understanding so they can do their best work. Even when she was temporarily demoted she kept her cool and continued to contribute to her team.

    40. DesertRose*

      Lt. Anita Van Buren. She would give her detectives a little slack when needed and rein them in when they were going too far (particularly if whatever they were doing could compromise a case). Also, that character is the Queen of So Not Here For The BS!

    41. Indoor Cat*

      Reading this thread has made me realize how few books / movies I watch set in the real world. I keep thinking, like, “Well, I’d follow Gandalf to hell and back, but he’s not exactly the ‘boss’ of the Fellowship…” There are a lot of fantasy mentor types who impacted me as roles models when I was young and impressionable– Kazul from Dealing With Dragons, Ogion from Earthsea Cycle, Uncle Iroh from Avatar : TLA, Hagrid from Harry Potter (I didn’t really like Dumbledore all that much, although I might be in the minority).

      Kazul was kind of a boss; I mean, she was a king, so, she had to run a (small) country. But she was bad at delegation. Also, she was a literal dragon, and I’m not totally sure how much dragon-cultural norms can translate into contemporary human workplaces. She was a pretty solid king, though. She figured out how to use science experiments to test assumptions (about magic, agriculture, and various other kingdom-running challenges), and she knew how to maintain a human-dragon alliance after their mutual enemy was vanquished.

      But, the protagonist (Princess Cimmerone) didn’t exactly work for her, so we never got to see how she treated her ’employees,’ and the Princess Cimerone had a lot of, you know, other princesses and incompetent wizards to save.

      The only fantasy character(s) I remember deeply admiring who were more boss-like in the sense that they oversaw someone doing day-to-day tasks rather than saving the world were Tiffany Aching’s mentors– Miss Tick, in the first book; Granny Aching in her memory, and Granny Weatherwax later on. I read The Wee Free Men when I was ten, and I really felt the way Tiffany thought about her mentors and her parents–the sort of complicated feeling of respecting them while realizing that respect doesn’t necessarily mean obedience, and trying to figure out in a broad sense what it means to be a leader from the good and bad examples in her life. What is an adult when it doesn’t mean “someone who takes care of me”? It might’ve been the first book I’d ever read where a character has two mentors who are very different (Granny Aching and Miss Tick) and yet both are worthy of respect.

      I can’t think of a book I’ve read as an adult where a boss stood out as being particularly admirable. In fact, mentally going over my list, I’ve read a surprising number of books where the protagonist works for someone terrible or terrifying. The last three books were Ada Palmer’s ‘Too Like The Lightning’ series, where your choice of bosses are JEDD Mason (aka an alien god), Madame Croisette (literally just orchestrated a civilization-destroying war…for fun?) and then the leaders of various political groups. I love-love Carlysle Foster and Martin Guildbreaker, and Papadelias for that matter, but none of them are really the boss of anyone.

      1. Original Flavored K*

        In regards to Dumbledore, you’re not in much of a minority. His actions from the first book on take on a very, very different sheen when viewed through the lens of Deathly Hallows.

        What did you think about Vimes, Vetinari, or Moist as bosses? Granny Weatherwax is definitely an interesting mentor figure (I haven’t read the Tiffany Aching books so I’ll always still have some Pratchett to read).

        1. Indoor Cat*

          Ventinari would be an amazing boss, and he’d never hire me, haha.

          Vimes…I think I’d quit. Actually, I think it’d be amazing if Tiffany and Vimes ever crossed paths because they have fundamentally different worldviews. In D&D terms, Vimes is Lawful Good and Tiffany is Chaotic Good (and in Gretchin Rubin’s parlance, she’s a Questioner– she’ll only follow an order if she understands why it’s good and what happens if she breaks it, and sometimes nobody will tell her what will happen so she just goes ahead and breaks the rule anyway).

          Vimes’ loyalty to Vetinari, and his certainty that Ankh-Morpork “works,” without ever questioning what that means, would drive Tiffany up the wall. Especially the splitting hairs between a king and a dictator. She might even be tempted to fight Vetinari, not to take his power (she’s, for all intents and purposes, an anarchist in the political sense, if only because democracy isn’t really an option on Discworld) but to prove that she could. To prove that of course there are big gaping flaws in the system– “the system is fundamentally people.”

          She’d also loathe his rationalization for violence (against criminals and others in his way), to the extent that she might not be able to grok that he actually does have a moral reasoning behind it and has lines he wouldn’t cross. In the last book, The Shepherd’s Crown, it’s a huge deal for her, mentally, to commit an act of violence that ends up killing a straight-up monster. She switched from pacifism to violence as a last resort, and she has to confront that part of the reason for her previous pacifism was that she was a little girl who *couldn’t* fight her way out of problems, not someone who chose not to out of wisdom.

          But, I still think she’d have a problem with Vimes’ violence-is-a-third-resort, get-concealed-weapons-on-the-DL methods. Every witch has a magical skill that their best at, and Tiffany’s skill is speeding healing and moving pain. To inflict pain, even on a villain, is somewhat anathemic to her.

          And yet! They are so similar! They both believe deeply in the intrinsic value of all people. They both recognize that day-to-day, often thankless work is vital to take care of people and keep them safe. They’re both deeply, fundamentally angry about social injustice, poverty, and bigotry, although that deep anger plays out differently for little girls an grown men– Tiffany gets chastised for it and told off for “being emotional and dramatic,” for one thing, whereas Vimes can exude a palpable cloud of fury wherever he goes and it seems to make people respect him more. But it’s the same anger, from the same heart.

          Which is a long way of saying, Vimes is a character I respect, and he’s a good dude. But he’d drive me mad if I had to work for him.

        2. Indoor Cat*

          You know what? Thinking on it, my favorite Discworld boss is Death.

          I’d work for Death. He trusts his employees. The tasks he assigns are straightforward. He recognizes the value of a private life. He’s interested in a lot of subjects and willing to let people experiment. He’s not there to be your friend, or inspire you to change the world; nor is he going to ask you to enter the Dungeon Dimensions.

    43. kathyglo*

      I vote for Capt. Frank Furillo from Hill Street Blues, one of the first great police dramas. I remember he always seemed in command, and fair, although I may have to rewatch to get all the details! If you’ve never seen it, check it out!

  2. Robbie*

    Hey folks. I’m looking for some job hunt advice.

    I was let go from my job last week. I was there for less than two months: it was a very small startup, and I was the second full-time hire.

    I’m not in a desperate situation yet, because I have plenty of savings. But I was at my previous job for less than a year, too. So I’m worried about how to present these two short-term jobs.

    Either one is explainable on its own: the startup was a tiny, risky startup and I knew what could happen going in, and at the job before that half of the team quit soon after I started. But together I’m worried that I’ll look like a job hopper, and also what to say if future companies want to speak to the startup.

    Since I was at the startup for less than two months, I’m considering leaving it off of my resume, and giving an explanation like “I got a great offer from an early stage startup, but unfortunately the company’s fortunes changed and the offer fell through. Thankfully I’m financially stable and I’ve been looking since.” Would this be good or am I better off telling the truth?

    1. TeacherNerd*

      I would leave it off, and if you’re asked down the road, the verbiage you give in your explanation is good.

      1. Robbie*

        Yeah, my professional friends like that phrasing. My only concern is what to say if someone wants to talk to the place that (I tell them) couldn’t hire me.

        I can’t see why they would, since as far as they knew, the startup didn’t actually work with me aside interviewing me, but I’ve never been a hiring manager, only an interviewer.

        1. Natalie*

          It’s pretty unlikely anyone would want to talk to them, but what if you changed the wording to “the job fell through” if you are concerned? It’s true, the job did fall through, but it doesn’t elide the fact that you did actually start working there before that happened.

          1. Robbie*

            I like that even more! The startup is in a certain field getting a lot of media attention for being a bubble, so if I say “it was an X startup, and I joined knowing it was risky, and that if it didn’t pay off, I would be going back to a big company and not looking back. Unfortunately, it was riskier than I thought and they couldn’t keep me on, so I’m going back to a big company and not looking back.”

              1. Robbie*

                Thank you! It helps that it was my plan. Ideally, I would’ve spent a couple of years at the startup and used the title and experience gained to swing a couple of branches ahead in the corporate jungle, but I knew that might not happen going in and I’m handling it now.

            2. Mallory Archer*

              I like that, too. Positive and makes you sound like you knew what you were doing when you took the risk (as you did). Someone who is willing to take a risk but only when it’s reasonable, has his eyes open about it, and has/had a back-up plan seems like a good hire to me.

              1. Anion*

                Oops, the above was me; I changed my name for the Ray Gillette joke above and forgot to change it back.

    2. Bea*

      Do you still have any connection with the startup that let you go? I would leave it off unless you can use them for networking purposes “we loved her but given the fragile state of out start up couldn’t afford to keep her on. In two months she did XYZ for us and was great.” but if you never even got to establish any work groove which in 2 months it may or may not happen.

      What about your jobs prior to the last two? Two quick jobs when the other 3 were 2-4 years each isn’t job hobbing in my opinion.

      1. Robbie*

        I’m going to reach out to the other F/T guy and see. We got along well, but honestly I could tell from week 2 that my boss didn’t like me. That’s happened at other jobs and I’ve made it through. But when your boss is the founder/CEO, it’s obviously different.

        I stayed at all my other jobs 1-4 years. I’m in tech so a year is considered a decent tenure, and the company I left to join the startup has been getting slammed with negative press constantly for the last year or so, so I think I’ll get some sympathy there.

        1. Bea*

          If the founder sucks, flush it. I would def network with your co-worker there if possible. But given your otherwise strong tenor it’s okay to have a weird burp where you bounced a bit.

          1. Robbie*

            I’m past it already. Honestly, I hope he does well. It’s wrong to wish something bad for other people. On the other hand, I’m not at all concerned about the founder anymore, aside what he may say to other people who want to hire me. Which is why I’m here.

            My planned explanation has evolved to “I left Black Mesa for an early stage startup in a turbulent space knowing it was risky and that if it didn’t work out, I’d be going back to big companies for good. Unfortunately it turned out to be riskier than I thought and they couldn’t keep me on.”

            I’m trying to elide as many potentially identifying details as I can, but you can probably guess what the field was.

            1. Bea*

              Very good mentality. It’s important to remember that harboring bad feelings also just takes up energy you can spend being happy.

              If you’re worried he’ll say bad things, do not list it. I think your wording is perfect and a decent employer will get it.

    3. Maya Elena*

      I would modify you script a bit and not lie. Be vague, but not untruthful. If asked, say you “briefly worked at a small, risky startup that didn’t work out” – but don’t lie.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Me too. A background check could possibly bring up this past job anyway depending on how thorough it is, so I wouldn’t give the impression I didn’t actually work at this startup just in case.

    4. The Tin Man*

      I agree with Maya. No need to lie and say the offer fell through. Leave it off and if you’re asked what you did during the gap (which happens) you can say what Maya put or also add “I briefly worked for a small, risky startup that didn’t work out but it folded and I was laid off before I could have any notable accomplishments for my resume”

    5. Lil Fidget*

      To be fair, my understanding is that this may be more understandable / expected in the field of startups. When Alison says “don’t be a job hopper” she’s not talking to every specific situation – you may be an exception if you’re all about launching new products / services?

      1. Anonny*

        This isn’t true for every industry, but in the tech/start-up world, I really don’t think anyone thinks about these things as “job hopping.” I see so many resumes; short term employment at start-ups is extremely common and doesn’t even phase us. It might be an interview question but it doesn’t raise concern. The only place I ever hear about the concept of job-hopping is here, on this site, in the comments section. It just feels like a really outdated thing to worry about/get upset about, at least in my corner of the world. It’s a non-issue. (Because I’m in the AAM comments section, I will add the disclaimer that I am very aware that it IS an issue in other industries, so I’m only speaking about my own experience.)

        1. Robbie*

          Makes sense. My only caveat with it is that I’m targeting banks and other big trusted institutions in my job search. I assume that “I tried this but the way it fell through reminded me of why I prefer the big company lifestyle” is a decent angle, but I’ve never been in a hiring manager’s position before. As a hiring manager, do you think it would make a difference?

          1. Anonny*

            Hmm – with banks, I really don’t know! Banking seems like a more formal industry where longer term employment is really the norm. It’s so tough to say because something that is so insignificant in my world could be a huge red flag to a hiring manager in banking. I think the angle you’re going for makes perfect sense to me and I think it explains the situation in a way that wouldn’t cause me any additional worry about you. I can’t speak for everyone but that explanation would definitely work for me.

          2. Cristina in England*

            I think hiring managers understand that, and it is a reasonable and plausible explanation if you were at big places, tried a startup, and want to go back to big places.

            1. Robbie*

              Yep. My angle is that since I’m getting older, I wanted to give the startup game one try before I definitively say whether or not it’s for me. I did, and it’s not.

          3. Kiwi*

            How long someone plans to stay makes a huge difference to me, but that’s because I have to spend at least 6 months training people before they can work independently. And it takes 1-3 years to properly get a handle on the work.

            I wouldn’t take on someone with a history of staying less than 2 years, and even at 2 years, I’d question them about it.

            But my company’s probably exceptional.

    6. theletter*

      It depends on how long your work history is in total – if you’re just starting out or switching careers, a little job hunting is expected.

      I had a couple of short stints when I was switching careers, which added up to a year. I think I just put it on my resume as “Freelance copywriting and Teapot Consulting – clients included LLama Inc, Kittys Co., StepMom’s Art Project & Assoc.”

      Risky startups can be rough to work for, but you’ve probably learned a lot of valuable lessons in that short time. It might be worth it to spin those lessons into achievements: ‘handled PR during network outage, Lead technical project while learning llama wrangling’, etc.

      1. Robbie*

        The other companies I’ve worked for were all pretty big. I’ve been burned when working with startups in the past: aside this startup, one wanted to give an offer but hit money issues, and another revised their offered salary downward also due to money issues.

        I’m a programmer with a decent amount of experience, so my mindset toward the startup was to give it a try, knowing the risk involved, and if it fell through, go back to the megacorp world and don’t look back. I think I can sell “the startup fell through” this way: explain that I learned from this experience that I want to be at a company for 5-10 years and be able to look back at all the projects I built and people I mentored in that timespan.

        1. zora*

          People understand that startups are risky and things often don’t work out and that happens quickly. I wouldn’t worry too much about people thinking it means you are a job hopper, but definitely think about what lessons you learned from that startup and be as specific as possible. (even though it was only 2 months). But things like: “I learned I am more comfortable with having the time to test out new process and get lots of input, rather than just moving quickly and having to change it later.” stuff like that.

        2. einahpets*

          Yeah, in my field (biotech) I started out at a big / stable company and then went out into the start-up/small company world a year and a half ago and it has been a brutal awakening for me, in some ways.

          When I interviewed for current job, they warned me that their small company had been acquired / was being integrated into a bigger company as if it is a downside (and I guess there are downsides), but I definitely took it as a plus for my current situation!

    7. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Oooh, I wouldn’t say that the offer fell through — that’s not true, and it could come back to bite you.

      But you could still leave it off your resume and say (in a cover letter or interview or networking conversations) “I got a great offer from an early stage startup and briefly joined the team. Unfortunately, the company’s fortunes changed soon after I was hired so I am back on the market.”

    8. BRR*

      I’m a little confused as to the reason you were let go? If it was purely financial you can say it was due to the company’s finances and that short stint wont’ make you look like a job hopper. Definitely don’t say the offer fell through and I wouldn’t mention your finances.

    9. einahpets*

      I think it depends on the industry. I was in pretty much the exact same position recently: I am in biotech in not one of the big biotech hubs (so a lot of smaller companies with the potential for growth and/or spectacular failure). I had a 10 month stint at one job (they ran out of funding to keep me fulltime) and then a layoff at the next after 6 months. No one batted an eye when I told them the reason I was looking so quickly for a new job. I, in fact, had two job offers within a month of looking.

      But it’d be helpful to try and identify a few references from each job that can speak to your situation. If nothing else, I was able to demonstrate versatility / adaptability to new environments pretty quickly with the jobs, or so my references told me.

      I am not sure if I will continue to list the 6 month/10 month stints in a few years, but I did have some accomplishments while at each that I don’t see a reason to remove right now.

      1. Robbie*

        The 2 month job isn’t going on my resume. The 10 month one will, because I can talk about my duties and give a reasonable explanation for my short tenure:

        a) I joined right before they were slammed with a bunch of negative press, which is still going on (you can guess the org)
        b) A lot of people in my department left right after I started, leading to a lot of pressure from upper management, which our department’s leadership took out on us

        In a couple of years I may drop both from my CV, especially since going back to the company I left to join the 10 month is still an option.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      For <2 months you can probably leave it off.
      But you might want to use the startup as a case to say you were either consulting or working freelance (if that makes sense in your field) while you were looking for a permanent position. In other words, play it off as though you KNEW it would be a temporary gig.
      I think when hiring managers hear 'start up company' they kind of understand.

      1. Natalie*

        Oh, I wouldn’t do that. It’s not remotely necessary to lie about getting laid off from a start up. And on a practical level, this lie invites way too many questions that you wouldn’t be able to answer – what project were you hired to do, why did you leave a permanent job for freelance work and then quit doing freelance, etc?

        1. Eric*

          Yes. Also, a bigger, more process-driven org (the type of place I want to go back to) is likely to ask for corroborating docs, which I won’t have, because it’s not true. I used to tutor on the side in college, and I had to fight with the background checking firm one of my old employers used over me not having W2s for it.

          I’d be much more comfortable with saying “it was a venture in a risky field, which is why they couldn’t keep me on.” This is glossing over that I was let go, but it’s still completely truthful.

    11. nep*

      Omission is one thing. But if you are mentioning the start-up at all, don’t lie — even a ‘little white one.’ No reason to set yourself up for trouble like that. Explain it in a way that — while giving only the level of detail you want — is completely truthful.

  3. Bobrowsky*

    Today is the day I need to put in my notice that I’m moving back to freelancing. I’m giving a LOT of notice (2 months), but my team is falling apart and there’s a chance come June our four person team could be one person and I think giving them as much warning / time to help prepare for the transition is the kindest thing to do. It can take months to hire (government work).

    Except I adore my boss and the thought of telling him ties my stomach into knots and I think I’m going to vomit ahhhhhhh.

    How do I get through the day until our meeting???

    1. Adlib*

      Just start whatever prep work for your departure that you need to do. Hopefully that will keep your mind off of it! Or, keep reading AAM posts. :) Before you know it, you’ll be at the meeting.

    2. Bea*

      You’ll get through it! He will be thankful you are giving him such notice and knows you care. This is the best kind of notice. I had to do the same when leaving my job of a decade, I’m still close to my boss :)

    3. Alli525*

      I cried so much when I told my bosses at my last job that I was leaving. Even though we all sort of knew it was on the horizon (I’d been there a long while, I’d been open about my frustrations) it was still so hard because I adored them. And then the one I liked the best decided to work from home that day, so I had to do it over the phone, which was even worse!

      Deep breaths. Focus on all the other little tasks that need to get done today. It sounds like you have a good relationship with your boss, so hopefully he’ll be happy for you, because you’re doing what’s best for you!

    4. LAM*

      “It’s not my fault the team is falling apart/we’ll be short staffed”

      At least, that’s what I keep telling myself since I’m also giving my notice today, but am only giving two weeks. My boss is going to flip, as we are already short staffed and it took them six months to fill my role before. But it is what it is.

    5. Bobrowsky*

      You guys are the best. I haven’t been here 10 years (more like 1.5) but it’s pretty clear to me the place isn’t a great fit, despite my awesome boss. I am just anxious because I don’t think he will expect this at all! One of my coworkers knows, but that’s it.

      1. Bea*

        I don’t think most ever expect it but they know it’s part of life.

        Heck the evil demon boss I dropped my 2 weeks on last year was taken off guard. Despite knowing he had started acting a mess and wrote me up two weeks prior for gross lies and embellishments.

        Employment is very fluid and any good boss gets it!

      2. LAM*

        I hope your meeting went well!

        My boss almost cried, and I could feel their boss’s disappointment through gte phone.

        But at least it’s done now and I feel a million times better! Hopefully you feel the same.

    6. Casuan*

      Know that this is just the ebb & flow of business.

      You get to make the life decisions that are right for you. You’re being ethical about your resignation & considerate of your colleagues. Your only obligation here is to be committed to make the transition as seemless as possible.

      Understandably [because you don’t want to screw over your colleagues], you’re making this more personal than you should. Just remember that they get to make their own life decisions & any one could decide to leave for any reason. Also, people can change their minds before giving notice &or the company can reorganise jobs so you really don’t know what the future holds.

      Wo. This was meant to be more inspirational than it reads. [Sorry if it doesn’t!]
      Good luck & let us know how it went!!

  4. project manager salary question*

    I currently work as a project manager in higher education publishing. I have ten years of experience with some really strong examples of projects I’ve led and initiatives I’ve started or advocated for.

    I’m looking to move out of higher ed publishing for several reasons and have a couple interviews set up for project manager jobs at consulting firms – one’s an economics firm, one’s tech, and another is management consulting.

    How do I navigate the salary talk? These areas of project management are so far outside my realm that I don’t really know what the normal salary is, and I don’t have anyone I know who works in those industries that can help me out. When I’ve looked online, there’s a range from $90K – $150K. I make a pretty low salary in comparison because higher ed publishing isn’t very high paying. I live and work in a HCOL city, and these interviews are in the same HCOL city. I don’t want to lowball myself, but I also don’t want to mention a salary that’s too high based on Glassdoor reviews, since I take those with a grain of salt.

    Can anyone give me an idea of what consulting firm project manager salaries are like? I’m really hesitant to bring up a number first, so I’d love some insight from anyone who has worked in these fields so I have a better understanding of the norm and don’t lowball myself.

    2. Oh hello!*

      When I started as a publishing project manager 14 years ago, I made $22k/year and had to live with my parents and couldn’t afford my bills. 2 years later, I moved 45 min away to a larger city and went to work for a bigger company, and felt like I’d struck gold with $38k/year (which, I still lived paycheck to paycheck and had to defer student loans). Over my 9 year span at that company, I crept my way up to $55k. I could pay all my bills and occasionally enjoy myself but didn’t have much left over for savings or vacations or anything big (high cost of living area).

      I made an industry change (tech) a few years ago – it was a fairly easy transition to make. I do a very similar job (sometimes it’s remarkable to me how many of my tasks are the same. It’s like I had to learn a new language. My old job was reading a book in Spanish and my current job is reading that same book in French. The same, but different.) I now make $103k/yr. All I had to do was prove that I could use my skills in a different industry and the rest was history, almost doubled my salary doing very similar work.

      For me, I had a hiring manager who very clearly saw the connection between the job I was leaving and the job she was hiring for, and she saw me as a valuable asset (and not someone she had to “take a chance on.”) so I was fortunate to not have to claw my way into a job and then get low-balled because of my salary history. She offered me a very fair starting salary that was way bigger than what I was making, and I didn’t even have to negotiate. When I moved up into a different, more complex role, I negotiated a better salary for myself because I had learned enough about the industry to know what I *should* be making doing the work I was doing. I was very confident about market value for my role and my qualifications and the value I brought to the job.

      It’s hard to do – I don’t have much concrete advice for you but I wanted to chime in and let you know it can be done. Getting out of publishing and into tech was the smartest thing I ever did for my career and my bank account! Good luck. :)

    3. PM*

      Depends. That range isn’t crazy but seems a little high for 10 years. $80-100 seems more reasonable. But your strategy should be not to give them a number. Read up on ways to avoid giving a salary first.

      At 10 years as a PM consultant with PMP and MBA in a high COL East Coast city, I made around $80k but should have made $90-100. At 15-20 years that $125-150 range seems reasonable.

      If you’re talking NYC or San Francisco COL, edge that whole thing up by 25% (I’m guessing)
      PMP signals your knowledge and helps you get hired. But having been on lots of proposals for consulting, the grad degree makes a difference for how much they can charge for you so you are worth more to the co (if it’s that kind of contract, some are just flat fee so they try to keep costs down).

    4. Brontosaurus*

      I’m in management consulting (10 years) and unless you have management consulting experience, they wont bring you in at the Manager level. I’m big 4, and I’d recommend you look at the Senior Consultant or Staff Senior level. I realize that might feel like a step down but management consulting is a really different beast with a heavy range of responsibilities outside of just client delivery. At that level targeting 80-100k is probably appropriate (for context I’m in a big 4 and at the experienced manager level making 135k base with my 10 years of experience in management consulting).

    5. May Not Be Helpful*

      One of the management consulting firm project manager/executive assistant positions I’m looking at applying for cites a range of $110K – $130K in a HCOL city so I think it’s really dependent on the firm and the city.

  5. peachie*

    Anyone have tips on how to deal with headache/eye strain in the office? I just started a new job ~3 weeks ago, and it’s been horrible in the last week. I’ve never had this problem before, and I can’t figure out what’s different–I’m not spending more time looking at a screen than I have in the past. I’ve changed my screen brightness settings and started getting up reguarly during the day to walk around, go outside, etc. It’s a bit better, but I’m still ending the day with a horrible headache. I think it might be something about the lighting, and I don’t know that I can do anything about that. Any ideas?

    (Btw, I’ve verified that my glasses prescription is right, and I already have separate “computer glasses.” I also just ran out my FSA money, so getting new lenses isn’t really in the budget…)

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Have you tried adjusting the distance from your eyes to the monitor. If not, give that a try. Everything else I was coming to say (eyes checked, separate computer glasses) you have already done.

    2. The Commoner*

      Do you have any natural light in your office setting? I’ve found that makes a huge difference for me. In years past I would work in the same little office with a door for hours on end and commonly have headaches. It was internal with no natural light. Once moved, even indirectly in a cube setting, made all the difference.

      Also, my spouse would say to consider allergies and if there is something at play contributing to the issues.

      1. BenAdminGeek*

        Yes, I had that and added a small lamp that I could move around if my eyes felt strained. Moving that little lamp even 6 inches closer/further was amazing.

    3. Nameless commentator*

      If you started a few weeks ago and have changed up routines make sure you’re hydrating!

    4. Natalie*

      If it is the lighting, your facilities people might be able to install a filter on the light fixture.

      1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        This happened to me, we have those overhead florescent lights with the three long bulbs. I asked if they could just take out two of the bulbs right above my head and computer and it worked.

    5. Die Forelle (The Trout)*

      I have some glasses from Eye Buy Direct (dot com) with their EBD Blue coating on them. It cuts the blue light and makes a difference for me in reducing eye strain. They also have a slightly more expensive coating called Eye Zen. Eye Buy Direct glasses are cheap too! My pair was $40 all-in. You just need your Rx from your optometrist and if you have a pair of glasses that fit well, check out the 3 numbers inside the side piece (mine are 49-19-145). Those are measurements and can help you figure out which frames will fit you.

    6. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      This is somewhat related to brightness settings, but if you’re allowed to, get f.lux for your computer.
      It does more than just brightness. You can also change how yellow or blue your monitor screen lighting is. On bad migraine days for me, I make it more sepia to help my eyes. You can set it to follow the time of day, or switch it on the fly, so it’s pretty simple to use.

      Are your “computer glasses” tinted in some way? For me personally, a green or purple/blue tint helps far better than something in the traditional “sunglasses” spectrum. And you can find green/blue tinted sunglasses for pretty cheap on Amazon.

      For office lighting: Are you somewhere where you can dim or turn off the overhead lights and switch to a lamp or lamps for at least a part of the day? Reducing some of the brightness around you can help too.

      Make sure you’re looking away from the screen and into distance on a regular basis (like every 10-20mins during focus work). During this time, blink more often than usual and warm your eyes a bit (I do this by rubbing my hands together to warm them, and then rest them over my closed eyes for about 30secs).

      Sorry if all of this fits into what you’ve already tried. This all works for me, but definitely my biggest cause of eyestrain is forgetting to blink while I’m focusing. My eyes get super-dry and then tired and strained.

      2. Canadian Teapots*

        peachie -might- be able to get away with twiddling the settings on their computer monitor. Some will let you adjust the color balance to more blue or more yellow, and others will let you adjust the RGB settings, etc.

      4. MRK*

        +1 to adjusting your screen, I get migraines and adjusting screens to a more yellow hue is a lifesaver.

        Also, is it possible you are getting stress headaches (not from light but just new job stress?) It sounds silly but I frequently get stress headaches even though if you asked I wouldn’t say I’m stressed. And for me, once that’s in action things like lighting can easily exacerbate the headache.

        1. Witty Nickname*

          This can be a big issue for me too. And one of my former coworkers actually started losing hair and ended up with a small bald spot shortly after starting here even though they didn’t feel like they were under any more stress than normal.

    7. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Are you sure it’s your eyes & not something to do with how you are sitting? I was having terrible headaches at work, and I realized it was due to the height of my computer screen. Or maybe it’s something to do with your chair?

    8. 2 Cents*

      When my monitor changed from a crappy one (by comparison) to a Mac retina screen that’s, truly, enormous, I had to change my background to black (no blue waves from that), and dim my monitor as if I was using it overnight. It has an orange hue to it, but it helps immensely. You can also download the flux plugin so you can change your screen’s “temperature” easily.

    9. Phoenix Programmer*

      Maybe ask to have the lights above your cube removed and bring in a lamp.

      Also for monitors since you turned down the brightness (I keep mine at 50%) you can also look into screen protectors. They make it darker.

    10. NoName*

      Check where the lights are in relation to your eyes. I have trouble with overhead fluorescents (the flicker) but I also have issues with bright lights in my peripheral vision or just behind my peripheral vision where they reflect in my glasses.

      One way you can check if lighting brightness is a factor, particularly if you do mostly computer-screen based work, would be to wear sunglasses for a while inside. (They’d need to be the kind that wrap around a bit and don’t let a lot of light in from the sides). If it helps, then that could be it.

    11. Legal Beagle*

      Could it be the overhead lights in the office? I find fluorescents irritating, especially in the morning. If you have your own office, you could leave the lights off and bring in a lamp with a soft lightbulb to use instead. Are you sure your computer glasses are still the correct Rx? Adjusting the distance between your seat and your monitor might also help. I tend to squint at my computer if it’s not exactly the right distance away from my eyeballs, which causes strain.

    12. CheeryO*

      +1 to f.lux if you can install it. Also, if your office setup allows it, removing a lightbulb or two from the overhead lighting can make an incredible difference. One of mine went out, and I still haven’t gotten it replaced since it’s so much easier on my eyes.

    13. MissDisplaced*

      Is the lighting different at the new job?
      I’ve had terrible issues if the fluorescent lights hang down instead of being recessed into the ceiling.

    14. Jady*

      I’ve had this issue at my current job.

      Different offices use different kinds of lighting. Depending on how many they are and the kind – some will cause issues for people. I’d never had a problem before.

      If you can and haven’t already – get a routine eye exam just to rule out anything extreme. I ended up having a scratch on my eye that caused the issues to be worse.

      After that, use eye drops. Anything over the counter. That will relieve some of the discomfort.

      When all that wasn’t enough for me, I started wearing a hat to work to dim the light. Nothing big – it was small black and nice looking. Boss didn’t care at all. (We don’t do customer-facing work though as a disclaimer.) That helped a good bit. I still have it in my drawer and will put it on occasionally.

      Then, I ended up talking to the office manager and actually getting the lights directly above my cube unscrewed. That was a magic bullet. There are a ridiculous number of overhead lights in here, so nothing is dark around my desk or anything. It’s just not shining directly down on me anymore. They’ve been unscrewed for about a year now.

      I still use the eye drops too, but my doc told me I have to use them regularly.

      1. tangerineRose*

        Some kinds of florescent lights give me a headache, especially after hours under them. I wear a hat with a brim too – it really helps.

        For dry eyes, my eye doctor recommended eye drops called Blink Tears. Not sure if they’ll help in your specific case.

        I found that screens with white backgrounds were the hardest on my eyes, and black or blue backgrounds were much easier.

        And a mirror or something to stretch your eyes is good.

    15. Competent Commenter*

      I had trouble with this when I started a part-time job at an office where I had no windows and there was nothing but the white wall 3 feet in front of me. My other part-time job space included a nearby window and I was constantly looking up and out to the horizon as I worked, and I had no eye strain on the days I worked there. I was only in my twenties at the time so it wasn’t an old-eyes thing.

      Any chance you can move nearer a window (if you’re in a room with one)? What about setting up a mirror on the wall in front of you or on your desk that reflects something at a distance, even if it’s just down the hall?

    16. Minnie*

      Could it be the overhead lighting? It can mess me up and cause a world of problems for my vision…

      1. Optimistic Prime*

        Yeah, when I feel a headache coming on I switch off the overhead fluorescent lights.

    17. knitcrazybooknut*

      I brought in a small natural light desk lamp and placed it in a corner behind one of my monitors to give it some back lighting. It made my monitor NOT the brightest thing in that area, which made a huge difference for me. I also leave the fluorescent satan-lights off, though your mileage may vary. Experimentation is the key. I find that I immediately flinch when something isn’t going to work, so pay attention to your immediate responses and don’t talk yourself into making something work.

    18. Mirth & Merry*

      I don’ know exactly what it is called so this might not be the most helpful but one of my coworkers got some sort of film/overlay for his screen that was supposed to help with that, I don’t think it was just one of those privacy but maybe. Bonus he was able to get the company to pay for it.

    19. Witty Nickname*

      I was dealing with this up until a few months ago. I thought it was the lighting, but eventually realized it was the mold in the a/c vents. The lighting made it worse, but wasn’t the initial cause of my headache. It might be worth figuring out if something like that (or pollen or other allergens – yay spring!) might be causing them. I’ve since moved to a different floor (actually moved twice since then), and my headaches are mostly gone unless the pollen is really bad that day.

      (Unfortunately, the only fix for me was to manage it with zyrtec – the good stuff I have to show my ID to the pharmacist to get – flonase, and advil. I actually realized what the cause was a week before I was set to move, so thankfully I was able to look forward to that).

    20. Kathenus*

      There’s also a recommended 20-20-20 strategy, every 20 minutes focus on something 20 feet away for about 20 seconds. Until I got my computer glasses prescription right it did help with my blurred vision when I was at the computer a lot.

    21. Oxford Coma*

      I get horrible glare from the overhead fluorescents. I’m not allowed to use glare shields anymore (because apparently office esthetics is more important than employee health and comfort) so I started wearing a ball cap at my desk.

    22. Optimistic Prime*

      See a doctor or go to a headache clinic. I was getting migraines regularly around 2-4 times per week, and there are daily medications you can take to reduce the frequency of the headaches.

  6. Phoenix Programmer*

    Any advice for reducing tasks outside the scope of your role?

    Some background: 2 yrs ago I was promoted. I am still doing items for that old role. It is starting to transition but going slower than I like. 1 yr ago I took over .75 fte of another role in addition to my role. I also have a hodge podge of tasks I consider “stuff no one else likes to do” which I get continual pressure to take more and more of. This is all really low level stuff and it use to take 2+ people to do it all so it is really limiting my ability to focus on my role.

    I have made it a new year’s resolution to shed low value thankless tasks that fall into “other duties as assigned” territory. Tips for achieving this? Tips for keeping new ones at bay?

    I will say that I have started to be more of a squeky wheel on these. The result is interesting – my managers are now making a bunch of”please do not leave us” jokes instead of engaging me in real development conversations. I thought stepping up to the plate would net praise, awards, and more pay and flexibility but I got none of that. Also I have stopped offering to help with the items (think fixing a printer jam) that I could help with but know I would get stuck doing forever while no one else at my level would ever be expected to.

    Also in case it’s relevant- I am paid the same as director level management and I am a woman.

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Well, you have done the first thing, and that is to stop volunteering to help with stuff. You should talk frankly with your boss to see if there is anything you can pass off to someone. If so, do it and be firm and consistent about doing it. Alison has some great advice on here about how to do that.

    2. Bea*

      If you’re dropping hints, you’ll want to make sure it’s clear that you’re not dreaming of not being tasked with low level tasks that anyone else can do.

      You’ll want to have a conversation about “these tasks are too time consuming. I need to give them to someone else, how about Office Admin?” If you are clear they can’t make stupid jokes. The “oh no don’t leave” comments seem like they’re thinking you’re blowing off steam in a moment and not seriously saying they need to reassign the duties to allow you time to focus on your high level duties.

      1. Sarah*

        You could also frame it as not making sense to pay someone what you’re making an hour to do an unskilled task when there are others who make less than you an hour who could do it. You can then focus on higher value tasks which is why your company promoted you (and presumably increased your pay).

        1. Jules the Third*

          +1 to this.

          “Stepping up to the plate” is most effective when the tasks you’re taking on are stretches for your role and level. Cleaning up is thankless. Someone has to do it, but at your level, they probably want it to be someone else, and for you to focus on a bigger picture.

        2. Competent Commenter*

          That’s how I frame it. “Is it really a good use of our resources to pay director-level hourly rates for me to do admin work?”

      2. Phoenix Programmer*

        Yes see below. I have had this talk many times. I am very direct using Mich of the same example phrase you use.

        My boss and her boss the VP go through this phase where they freak out that I am going to leave. It’s weird. I would much rather they just move in the items I have asked for (e.g. moving x,y,z off my plate) instead of going on about how they want me to promise to stay in this role. I have never said or even hinted that I am leaving and have reassured many times that I want to stay in this role for at least 4 more years but it continues. We are a high turnover department in a high turnover industry but still.

        1. Bea*

          They have no reason to help :( They’ll never fix it because they’re dedicated to flapping their hands at the idea you’ll leave, you placate them with reassurance and then they have no motivation to make you happy. Your only power here is if you start shopping around for a new job and tell them seriously they take XYZ off your plate or you’re out.

        2. PM*

          Why on Earth are you reassuring them that you’re not going to leave them if they aren’t fixing your problems? Honestly, that has echoes of my worst relationship. They are manipulating you into giving away your agency in exchange for a guilt trip instead of making your work life one you wouldn’t want to leave. Grr.

          1. PM*

            Manipulative people tend to behave in four consistent ways:
            – They detect your weaknesses.
            – They use your weaknesses against you.
            – They convince you to give up something of yourself, in order to serve their own interests.
            – They will likely repeat the violation, until you put a stop to the exploitation.

    3. Jessi*

      Who is above you? Sit down and talk to them and say something like a year ago I took on 0.75fte of tasks and unfortunately I am wearing thin. I need to reduce the tasks I have as I am need to focus more on Important task 1, 2 and 3. Here are some of the time consuming things that I do : time consuming tasks x, y, z, k, l j. These are all lower level tasks and we could spread them around junior folks, or we could give them to person Y as stretch tasks. Either way I just don’t have the time for them

    4. Eye of Sauron*

      Here’s my advice stop dropping hints and start dropping tasks… I’ve had good success with this approach.

      1. Identify the tasks that you want to get rid of.
      2. Identify the best owner for these things.
      3. Set up meetings with the various leaders where the tasks should reside -these leaders should be on your level if you are a manager or the level above you if you are not.
      3b. During meeting let them know that you will be handing off tasks x and z to their team and ask them if there is a person they want you to directly train/hand them off to or if they will be taking care of that.
      3c. Give a timeframe for the transition. I will make myself available to train etc. until May 1, at that point I’m going to stop doing it.
      4. Rinse and repeat #3 with for all the tasks
      5. Train/hand over tasks
      6. focus on current job and future -The next time you are promoted the first thing that should be done is a transition plan. Essentially start from step 1 as soon as promotion is announced/accepted and work your way through the list as above.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        I totally agree with you – bit the issue is actually that my new boss has insisted that the old tasks stay with me because otherwise the old boss would not have assigned them to someone. My old job was supporting my current boss as well.

        1. Competent Commenter*

          In that case can you frame it as “Tasks A, B and C take X amount of time per week. The tasks in my job description/that are higher priority/required for compliance/however you frame it can’t get done if I do A, B and C. Which do you want done?” This will probably take a lot of repeating. Keep it calm and firm, with a tone of “it’s all the same to me” helps. If they don’t give you guidance, then keep mentioning this in emails, “Since you wanted me to keep doing A, B and C, I won’t be able to take on important project D. Let me know if your priorities change.”

          I think it will take time and courage on your part. People usually say patience, but I think it’s courage. It’s very difficult to have your boss say, “Buh buh but why can’t I have all the things I want? We NEED this! Just try harder!” and to consistently answer, “Well, we don’t have the resources for that. You put me on A,B and C so we can’t have D.” You have to keep your chin up, your tone calm, and your engagement minimal. It’s not up for discussion, it’s just a fact that you’re presenting.

          Maybe you feel like now that you’re in the middle of it you can’t get out of it. I’m way behind on some major projects because of all the other work that gets dumped on me. I blame myself for picking up the extra work, for the choices I made, for not saying no, for not clearly saying, “Oh, you want that brochure? Then that magazine is going to be another week postponed.” So I think sometimes we just have to start in the middle of that process and do our best.

          I used to think that all it would take would be for me to say no, and things would be better. It was SO hard to say no! It didn’t occur to me that would be just the beginning. It’s really hard.

          Also, when they bring up “please don’t quit,” maybe you just start saying, “I’m not quitting. But seriously now, can we get back to talking about problem solving?” or “Talking about me quitting is distracting us from figuring out how to get the organization what it needs. Because you’re not getting what you need in this situation and that’s what important here.” (I find it’s better to frame it as “the company isn’t getting those important reports because of this,” rather than “I need help.”) or even ignoring that part and saying “I’d like to strategize how to handle this” without ever responding to “are you going to quit.” So it’s “we need you to do it all! You’re not going to quit, are you?” and “Me doing it all isn’t going to be possible, so how shall we proceed?”

          Don’t give them any traction on the quitting conversation. Because it amounts to “I’m not going to give you what you need to be successful/sane in your job. Are you going to quit over that? No? Okay, then I’ll keep doing what I’m doing!” So don’t engage on that. Don’t keep saying you’ll stick around.

          And seriously don’t stick around if it continues. You’ll never feel good about your work or accomplishments if you’re trying to doing multiple people’s jobs. I know, cause I’m there right now.

    5. Sarah_with_a_H*

      I am in a similar position and sympathize! I have had more luck getting the low value/minutia off my plate by letting my supervisor know that I am prioritizing my tasks and that they are on the bottom. Then, they typically don’t get done.

      It’s amazing to me how often these things *need* to be done, but when they are not happening, it is not worth anyone’s time to deal with it (or they are not missed at all). Of course YMMV and that may not work in all organizations. On the larger projects, I am stating to understand that they will nevery truly be off my plate until I leave. It’s not right, but in my case, and with my managementment team, it is what it is and I have to decide what I am willing to put up with.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        Guess I should also clarify that by “squeky wheel” I meant pushing back on these tasks. My current boss is really pushing all of us to be team players and take on new work due to budget cuts etc. but I have been doing that for 2 years and the result has been rewarded with more and more low level work with no recognition for taking on the tasks my boss has asked me too. Now when I am asked to “temporarily” take on more work I make a case why I should not and I have started bringing up the tasks o am transitioning monthly instead of quartely etc.

    6. Phoenix Programmer*

      Just to clarify I am not dropping hints. I find their please don’t leave! Responses to my statements like “this transition is going slower than I like can we spend it up?” and “As you know I took on all of persons role and am still doing old role so I don’t have capacity for this. Speaking of that where are we on delegatong out persons work?” To be an odd response indeed
      However it’s something they have done each time I have brought up a concern. It’s really weird – I am not job searching nor hinting that I am.

      1. Benray*

        What does “director level” mean? My old roommate was a yoga instructor at a resort with the title of Director, though she was the only employee in her shop. The current head of my agency has the title of Director. A competitor business at my old job gave “Director” titles to their staff who had equivalent duties as I did, as a project manager.

        I ask for clarification because depending on your level, you may be able to assign some of the tasks to subordinates and change your role to overseeing completion of those tasks. Another strategy is to let non priority tasks fall to the bottom of your list. You focus on the big items, or what you’re primarily paid to accomplish, and at some point those lower-level tasks will be reassigned or cut out completely. You may even consider doing low level tasks poorly enough that folks find someone else to do them. (In my office, that would be the slide-advancer or the meeting scheduler – both of which others have tried to foist off on me, even though I’m a senior researcher.)

        If I let colleagues manage my career for me, I’d be doing lower level tasks along with them, or for them because they were savvy enough to unload unwanted tasks on me.

      2. Sise*

        To me, I would wonder if their ‘ please don’t leave’ comments signal the fact they aren’t going to change your work load…ie, code for, ‘we hear your request to change duties, but aren’t going to change them (or change them quickly) please don’t get upset and leave’. Is the please don’t leave comment their *only* response to your requests to change duties, or do they also talk about timelines and possible solutions?

      3. Marthooh*

        I would take that to mean “If you leave, no one else will agree to do your current job at your current salary!”

        You may have to “speed up” the transition on your own, by just not doing the scut work any more.

    7. periwinkle*

      I’m part of a brand new team with a newly-hired manager. Other teams are trying to drop things onto our plate if they’re even vaguely related to our still-fluid purpose. Some of it is relevant, lots of it is administrative stuff that was being done out of habit, and some of it is important but outside our scope. That administrative stuff was mostly “but it just takes an hour or so a month”, which adds up when you’ve got a couple dozen of those “just an hour” projects. We were already struggling with how to disengage from the non-value-added work so we could focus on our core work.

      And then I got my Brain Food newsletter with a link to this:
      https://www.fs.blog/2018/03/speed-velocity/

      Trust me – read this. Digest it. Send it to your team. Stick it in your personal OneNote folder. You need velocity, but people dropped a lot of speed items on your desk.

        1. periwinkle*

          You’re welcome! I sent the link to my boss and team, which sparked a good discussion both in the broader sense (not letting low-value work get in our way, not letting other teams try to broaden our scope) and in terms of kicking aside the “I guess I’ll be nice and helpful” behavior women have been conditioned to follow. Our manager is on the younger side but two of her reports (myself and another woman) hit the point where we are OVER that kind of crap and will push back on requests that take advantage of the expectations for nice-and-helpful.

          If you’ve become a squeaky wheel, you’re over it, too. Push back rationally, push back tactfully, but push back!

          And that “please don’t leave us” garbage is pure manipulation. If they truly want to keep you, they must treat you – and your scope – with respect. Stop reassuring them, now. Just repeat what you said about scope, workload, priorities, etc.

          Them: “We neeeeeeeeeeeed you so much, you’re so good, don’t ever leave!”
          You: “Tasks A and B must be assigned to a more appropriate team. Task C doesn’t provide any real value and takes up time I need to work on my statement of work, so it should be dropped. I need to focus on Tasks X, Y, and Z as my top priorities.”
          Them: “But you’re so goooooood at doing little things like C. It won’t take hardly any time at all! Oh, we also want you to do F, G, and H because Fergus is just so darned busy and important that he can’t do them.”
          You: “I need to focus on Tasks X, Y, and Z as my top priorities. F, G, and H are out of scope. So are A and B and C. Let’s sit down this afternoon to make a plan to transition those back to appropriate teams or stop doing them.”

          Rinse and repeat as needed. And while you’re at it, have you tested the job market to see what’s out there?

  7. Probably Nerdy*

    Let’s get philosophical!

    a) Is condescension provable?

    b) If so, how? If not, why not?

    c) Why do people ask for hard evidence of it?

    1. Not So Super-visor*

      My thoughts:
      a) yes, but…
      b) only if there are witnesses or its in writing
      c) people ask for evidence because there is a difference between a manager giving you direction or feedback and being condescending. HR or higher level management need to see how things were presented in order to determine if it was condescending or if someone is just taking feedback the wrong way.

    2. Earthwalker*

      Ooh, great question! I *hate* condescension, and yet I’m never sure whether I’m a culprit myself. I know it when I see it, but I suspect I don’t know it when I do it.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah. The easiest way to prove it is between peers or subordinates. It’s almost impossible to prove that your boss is being inappropriately condescending, IME. But you can say, “Chadwick tries to give me instructions and advice despite being at my same level, in a tone that indicates he believes he has more experience or knowledge than I do,” and you might get somewhere.

        1. Competent Commenter*

          You’re probably right, but what about when you and your boss are both llama herders and she frequently lectures you and the rest of the llama herding team on the fact that llama herding involves herding llamas? “Of course llama herding involves walking with llamas and standing near them and holding your llama herder’s crook just right.” There was that great retreat where her PowerPoint presentation was about defining llama herding from the ground up.

          Us llama herders are like, “You don’t say?”

          I’d call it condescending.

          1. Lil Fidget*

            It can still BE condescending, it’s just really hard to make the case to any higher ups or do anything about it, because your manager is reasonably meant to be telling you what to do and how to do it.

    3. Probably Nerdy*

      To flesh out a) a bit – Is it a Thing that Exists or is it always in the eye of the beholder, so to speak? Both? Neither?

      1. Lissa*

        I’d say both/it depends. It’s certainly a thing that exists, however there’s also people who take instructions of any kind badly, or a situation where it’s like, I tell someone how to do a thing, they get offended, but they messed it up last time, so. Condescension is also really close to over-explaining, which isn’t quite the same intent but can often have the same effect… some people just go into excessive annoying amounts of detail but it isn’t really meant in a “you’re so dumb” way.

        I think it’s often unconscious, which is what makes it so frustrating to be on the receiving end. It feels like the other person is doing this behaviour because they truly believe in your heart of hearts that you need their explanation, and that’s why the “tone” comes out.

    4. Guy Incognito*

      a) it can be, but first step is to reflect on what was said and why. Make sure you’re not bringing your own stuff into it. START with the fact that the person was trying to help, then work backwards from there.

      Example: My boss sent me a link to excel classes literally within the hour of me sending my first spreadsheet. Could have been condescending, but we had just a meeting about how I wanted to know how to manipulate EXCEL better. It was just poor timing that it happened so close. He even said “You don’t need it.”

      b) you would need written proof, or some additional evidence.

      c) Because you’re trying to prove something difficult to prove. IF you complain that someone training you is training you, then… yay? You need to find a way to prove intent, and that’s impossible, based on tone of voice, etc.

    5. Maya Elena*

      In my personal experience, it’s really easy to take things the wrong way and feel like someone is “always” doing a thing they only did a few times – especially if what they do somehow plays into your own insecurities.

      Therefore it is essential to establish a pattern of condescension, even if it is your own records over time.

      I’m guessing in part (c) you mean why people ask for evidence of it in the context of discrimination or harassment complaints? Since the consequences for such a complaint can be significant to the accused (job loss and reputation damage), there needs to be proof before punishment can be applied.

    6. Lcsa99*

      A) not really

      B) it’s more of an attitude and tone than anything, not something tangible

      C) because they are being condescending

    7. Triple Anon*

      a) If it’s in writing or otherwise clearly documented, yes. The kind that’s not provable is where someone speaks to you in a condescending tone but their words are normal; even if there are witnesses, the speaker can claim that their tone was not intended that way.

      b) I think I covered it in A.

      c) Because perception plays a role in it, and it can be hard to document. However, it’s passive aggressive and commonly used in an unfair or discriminatory way – towards a person or group of people that you dislike or look down on.

      Great question, by the way! This is interesting.

  8. TeacherNerd*

    So, I work in education (as a teacher), and I’ve taught as an adjunct and have a background in secondary education (minored in education as an undergrad, although my undergrad and both graduate degrees are content-specific). I worked in various unrelated-to-my-current-career jobs before attending college in my late 20s, and after graduating I taught part-time at multiple different colleges in multiple states; jobs in my field were difficult to come by thanks to the economic downturn that occurred when I graduated with my undergraduate degree.

    I mention this so you’ll understand that my career path wasn’t linear or “traditional,” so any advice I hear about having a single-page resume I disregard because it’s not applicable to my situation (I’ve had others insist I need to limit my resume to a single page, which would give the impression I did nothing for more than a decade).

    The result of all of this being I have had quite a few contingent jobs, and moved around a lot (related to big life changes). I list my education, licensure info, and several years’ worth of my most recent relevant experience on page one of my CV; on the second page, I have conferences I’ve presented at, and a list of professionally-related memberships. On the bottom of the first page, I have a link to my LinkedIn profile (“my full employment history can be viewed at [LinkedIn URL].” I have that LinkedIn URL there so people will understand I’ve had other related positions. I can arrange it so all my teaching experience is on the first page, but what do you think about including that LinkedIn URL so it’s known I’ve Done Other Things – or am I overthinking this? Thanks!

    1. AES*

      Are you talking about looking for secondary teaching jobs, or adjunct positions? As someone who regularly hires the latter, I probably would neither follow a LinkedIn url nor mind that it was there; I would want to stay focused on your teaching and scholarship, which it sounds like you’re foregrounding sensibly (and academic CVs generally don’t adhere to the 1-page rule so I wouldn’t worry about that).

      1. TeacherNerd*

        I was playing around with my CV format a few days ago; I removed some years-long subbing I did, since I have “actual” teaching experience (not that subbing isn’t good experience, but if I have to choose whether to list subbing vs. “I taught at this college for these two semesters,” I’m going to choose the latter), but unless I stay at this school for the next 20+ years, my teaching experience will no longer fit on a single page. Perhaps that doesn’t matter – at this point, my non-college-teaching experience is more than a decade old, and probably not as important as the more recent – hence the “See all this other work I did, posted on LinkedIn!”

        1. AES*

          Hm–re: stuff like the long-term subbing, I’d probably keep that on. If I’m hiring an adjunct, I get at least 30 CVs for any given position, and I’m honestly not going to take the time to dig past what I’m sent in that CV–the time I’d have to invest is not worth the payoff. I’d keep any relevant (i.e. teaching-related) experience on there. The number of pages isn’t an issue, unless you’re padding out with, like, the committees you served on in grad school or unrelated volunteer experience.

    2. Britt*

      I’m curious abut the 1 page resume as well. As it becomes more the norm to stay at jobs 2-5 years….how do we condense the important part of those jobs onto one page throughout our career as time goes on? I was actually thinking about this last night. The 1 page resume has been a long tradition, but isn’t it rooted in a society where people stayed at their jobs for decades…? hmmm

      1. TeacherNerd*

        I always took the “must be one page!” resume advice with a huge grain of salt, especially because when I heard this advice, I was an older undergrad who had also presented at conferences and was member of various professional organizations that (I still think) are important to include. The guy who was insisting that my resume only be one page tried to pull the “well, I worked at an employment agency!” thing, but I was able to counter that with, “So have I. Are you advising me to leave off relevant experience that others don’t have that will give me an advantage because it won’t fit on a page?” Then again, a multi-page resume in academia isn’t unusual, and that advice I was given was given by someone who was several years younger than I, and had a different perspective.

        1. Optimistic Prime*

          The advice doesn’t apply within academia – multi-page CVs are the norm there. But outside of academia, conferences presented at and professional organizations wouldn’t be on a resume anymore, so that would help reduce the length. (When I transitioned out of academia, I cut my resume down to two pages.)

      2. Frank Doyle*

        The one-page rule is only for people a few years in the workforce. It’s not a hard and fast rule for everyone anymore.

        1. TeacherNerd*

          Indeed. The bad-advice-guy’s advice would have been more appropriate had I been 22, not 31.

      3. atgo*

        I also think the 1-page resume has fallen away as applicant management has moved digitally. For the hiring manager with a stack of papers, 1 page would really make things easier. Managing and reading PDFs mean it makes less of a difference. As long as things are concise and clear, I think 2 is OK.

        On the topic (meant to put this in the resume thread but didn’t have time that day)… I got a 49 page manifesto once that included the candidate’s life story, photography, poetry, and a theory of the world told through very advanced math. No reference to the role, the company, or professional skills really. That was too much. ;)

      4. nep*

        I recently listened to a couple of speakers from an international non-profit — one of them said quite clearly: ‘A resume that’s only one page probably would not even get a look here.’
        I applied for a contract gig with them this week. I went out of my way to stretch my resume to two pages.
        Depends on the industry, but also perhaps on the very company or organisation in question.

    3. Casuan*

      You’re Overthinking This.

      This can depend on your field &or country to which you’re sending your CV. If it’s the norm then okay.
      If it isn’t the norm or if you aren’t certain, then leave the LinkedIn reference off of your CV.
      When I’m looking at CVs I want to have all of the relevant infos in hand & unless there’s something in that CV to pique my interest for more infos I’m not going to go online for your work history.

      Your CV should include relevant jobs & accomplishments. You might be able to mention that you’ve Done Other Things in your cover letter [although sparingly because you don’t want it to read like a CV].
      At your interview[s] you can wow them with the Other Things You’ve Done.

      Good luck!!
      & please let us know what you decide :-)

    4. Nesprin*

      You’re overthinking this. My resume is 1.5 pages, my academic CV is ~7. Colleges/academics get the CV, everyone else gets the resume

  9. Amber*

    I’m sure the answer is “NO,” but I’m feeling paranoid. If you send your resume to a recruiter for a job posting, and your company happens to use that same recruitment agency — is there a risk the recruitment agency will spill the beans to your current company?

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I’ve had recruiters ask if there are any companies to avoid before, so maybe preemptively suggest that when you speak with them?

    3. Bea*

      Only if they’re dumb and can’t see you’re employed there. It’s no benefit to them to tell your current job because the way they make money is finding you a job and stealing you away.

      The only risk I see is some idiot suggesting you to them by mistake since you have the experience, you know?

      1. Anonymous for this one*

        This actually happened to my old boss but the other way around. They called her about a job, which turned out to be her own job that she was currently working at. But they didn’t give her the company name, she figured it out through the job description.

      2. Jen RO*

        I have heard of several instances when the recruiter in charge of hiring for my company contacted people who were already employed here (and their LinkedIn clearly stated that). So, Amber, maybe you should reach out to them and spell out the fact that they should NOT contact your current employer?

      3. What?*

        DEFINITELY call the recruiter and tell them not to place you at your current company.

        This happened to me in September – a recruiter contacted me for my position at OldJob. I was caught flat-footed by this – asked about it on a September AAM open thread, actually – and demanded a meeting with HR that following workday. Had my meeting with HR, then a followup with HR and my boss, who told me that they wanted to restructure the role and that I had until the end of January. Well, it ended up being extended another month to the end of February, and I started a new position for a different organization a few weeks ago at the same paygrade but higher title.

        “Trust but verify” is all I’m sayin. Or maybe, “In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash” to quote a book title.

    4. einahpets*

      My experiences with recruiters are varied, but overall I think you are generally safe because most recruiters don’t want to tick off the people they are trying to recruiter for openings (at least in my industry/career level, that’s true). The good ones I would never doubt would be discreet (although they may file away the fact that you are looking in the instance that your company may be looking for someone again soon).

    5. Dzhymm*

      It would depend on the recruiter; if they’re a careful, professional outfit that carefully vets the resumes they send out then the answer would be “no”. If they’re the type of recruiter (all too common) that shotguns every resume they have to every company they can find in the hopes that something will stick… then possibly yes.

    6. voposama*

      Member of a recruiting agency here! Any good agency would NEVER mention this to your employer as it would damage their relationship with you, a prospective placement. And it also wouldn’t really be a benefit to the relationship with the client. What could we possibly get out of telling our client that?

      Mistakes happen, but I wouldn’t worry too much.

    7. Minerva McGonagall*

      The other thing to be aware of, depending on how big of a client your current employer is, is that sometimes recruiters won’t place employees of big clients for risk of being accused of poaching and losing the client. Which is fine if they tell you, but sometimes they don’t tell you because they also don’t want you to work with a competing recruiter who will submit you for a job they want to fill. Not ethical, but the commission pay system can motivate unethical behavior.

  10. Anon here hi*

    I started a new position and my title is Information Specialist, except that I don’t work in the “Information Center”, but I’m in the cubicles outside of it. My co-worker/trainer “Tamara” has her desk and work space inside the Information Center. I have to work with her, so I sometimes sit in the Info Center at a table to get my work done, but I feel weird about it.

    Tamara is nice, but is used to working by herself for 10 years, so I don’t know if I’m annoying her because she’ll make an excuse to leave. Other people comment how I’m in there, but where else should I be? I have work that needs to be completed in the Information Center, so I can’t take it back to my cubicle.

    I have told her to let me know if she needs alone time and try to be respectful of her space/privacy, but I was hired and also have the right to be in there. I’m usually working, so it’s not like I’m on my cell phone talking to friends.

    Is there anything that I should be changing? I’m otherwise by my desk working, but I feel really out of place right now.

    1. Bertha*

      Having worked at the only desk in an Information Center myself, I definitely felt awkward when people were working in there, but I also recognized when people had to! I of course hadn’t been there as long as Tamara. I suppose if there is a way to face away from her, that might make it less awkward. Also, it’s possible as time passes, you will figure out ways to bring your work back to your cubicle, which may also help make things less awkward. I think you’ve done all you can — you told her to let you know if you are making things awkward, etc.

      As far as the excuses to leave, it could be that she was doing that before you started, but now she feels like as your trainer she has to tell you when she’s stepping away from her desk. Again.. when I was working back myself at an Information Center and then a coworker was added to the mix, I often felt awkward myself, and didn’t always know what I should or shouldn’t be telling her! I think these things will get less awkward with time.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would not ask about that again, I’d assume she is an adult and she will speak up.
      However, you could ask a general question, since she is your trainer. Ask her how she feels you are progressing and ask her about what is coming up next- such as what will you guys cover next or can you go back over x, y and z.

      It sounds like a shared work area. You have as much right to be there as she does. Her “making excuses” might be her way of making you feel included. “Okay, done with that. I have to go do X now.” It’s kind of rude to walk out of room without saying anything, so people can come up with random things, not realizing there is a second or third implication to what they just said. She also might be showing you how the work flow goes and what you can expect.

      Try to hold it in a good light until you find a solid reason not to. You say she is nice, hold on to that thought.

      She may have worked alone for 10 years and spent the last 5 years asking for help. She might be glad you are there.

    3. LilySparrow*

      If Tamara is annoyed by your totally legitimate and necessary presence, that is her problem that she needs to deal with. It isn’t your problem, and you don’t have to do anything about it – particularly since you don’t even know if it’s true.

      If Tamara makes a reasonable request for you to stop doing something distracting or annoying (like tapping your pen, or humming under your breath, or staring at her when you’re thinking), then of course you should do your best to stop/change it.

      “Stop existing” or “stop doing your work in the appropriate work space” aren’t reasonable requests, and she’s not making them. So let her manage her time and space however she wants.

  11. Supervisee took credit for my work in his self-evaluation*

    Context: Until this month I supervised a young man who is a MAJOR beneficary of the “glass escalator.” Senior managers here love him. He’s a good worker but not as good as he makes himself out to be. I am doing his annual review now.

    His self-evaluation made me roll my eyes in general with its grandiosity. For example he writes that he “overhauled” a program when in reality he made one suggestion that resulted in a beneficial but minor process change. But something else really bothered me. He wrote, “I developed Program X report on my own.”

    Not only is he not involved in reporting, but *I* made the report for that program. I emailed him back asking for additional info. He responded with a 1 page summary of a program he sent to Grandboss, using numbers I provided. I’m torn between…

    1) Giving him some stern coaching on teamwork and the limits of self-promotion.
    2) Giving him a “bless your heart” response that writing a 1 pager with someone else’s data isn’t “developing a report” (which in my world means coding a query).
    3) Doing nothing because he’s not my problem any more and I’m hoping to leave this place ASAP.

    To be clear, it’s not that I want credit for that document. It’s that he went out of his way to say he did it on his own (and worded it in a way that makes it seem like he’s a developer all of a sudden) that bothers me. Meanwhile literally no one seems to “remember” that I develop reports because I’m just a lil lady.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I think it would be a service to the universe if you tried to take him down a notch. You can try explaining but he’ll probably never understand – but it’d be great to leave some kind of record somewhere that he wasn’t the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    2. Not So Super-visor*

      I don’t know about “stern coaching,” but it should definitely be addressed and coached. You can ask him to explain his processes for “developing” the program. If he goes off into self-promotion, you can reel him back in by explaining his place in the process.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think you should say something very directly. I wouldn’t make it about teamwork, because he’s likely to hear that as “I’m supposed to share the credit for the sake of relationships” as opposed to “I’m doing something unethical and wrong.” Instead, make it about the cost to *him*. Frame it in terms of his own credibility, and that even one of these incidents can, if uncovered, make people doubt him more broadly because it’s so misleading.

      1. 2 Cents*

        Would the phrase “I found it interesting you took credit for work you didn’t do in your evaluation. Especially since *I* did that work” be appropriate?

        I work with someone like this guy. Totally overblown in terms of what he *says* he can do versus what he can *actually* do. (Meanwhile, what he purports to do, I actually do — and well — I just don’t promote myself every 3 days to the higher ups about it.)

        1. Lil Fidget*

          That’s a little too strong to me. I’d say something like, “I see you developed X according to your review. Can you walk me through what that looked like to you?” and then after he explains, I’d say “I think you need to be more careful claiming that you developed something if you actually only did the coding. There are other elements like X and Y that are involved in developing. This is a pretty serious issue so I want to flag it for you, because it can really damage your professional reputation to claim credit for something you didn’t see all the way through. (and maybe, “I’m going to mark you as “needs improvement” under “self assessment”” if there’s a box for that haha.)

          1. Yorick*

            She doesn’t need to dance around it. She already asked for clarification and he sent her the document. She knows he didn’t develop it on his own, so she doesn’t need to ask him any more questions about that.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          “I found it interesting” is too passive; she has authority over him and so she can use something stronger like “I’m concerned that you took credit…” or “You cannot take credit…”

        3. Agnodike*

          My $0.02 here: I think euphemisms like “interesting” come across as really passive-aggressive. I usually find it’s more effective to say what I mean politely but directly. In that situation, I might use “I’m surprised” or “I’m disappointed” or I might not talk about my feelings at all and simply say “it’s really inappropriate that you’re crediting yourself with work I did.”

      2. Supervisee took credit for my work in his self-evaluation*

        The credibility thing is very true. He took sole credit for something his REVIEWER help with (or did alone, if you take his statement at face value). That boldness definitely makes me think he’d take credit for things his coworkers have done as well. My biggest issue is that the bosses think he poops gold.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Let them think that. Make the correction in person, and in your own evaluation comments if you can, and then let his bosses deal with the fallout of his grandiosity. When you’re gone and he has no one else to piggyback off of, he’ll fall flat on his face.

    5. The Tin Man*

      I like #2. Then maybe a bit of #1 to “give a heads up” that “misunderstanding” what “developing a report” means in your world can make it sound like he is taking sole credit for a collaborative work (my understanding is that you wrote the query and he wrote the 1-pager summarizing the findings?).

      And the fact that he specifically said “on my own” drives me mad. That makes the reactive part of me want to go scorched earth on him.

      1. Supervisee took credit for my work in his self-evaluation*

        Same. Like “wrote a summary of program’s accomplishments for senior management’s review” would have been prestigious-sounding enough. He went out of his way to be deceitful.

      2. Yolo*

        This is great! In a generous reading, this is about a terminology mix-up (one-pager as report)?

    6. Barney Barnaby*

      Alison’s advice will probably be far better than mine, but this is a self-evaluation before an annual review. Presumably, you can provide written and/or verbal feedback. As part of that, have both written and verbal feedback about his role in the project, the roles other people played, and why his statements are misleading.

      Young people often don’t understand that they are given tiny parts of large projects; they just see what they are doing and think it was much bigger than it was. Maybe that’s what is going on. Maybe he just brags and overinflates himself. Either way, take this down a notch so that people aren’t hurting because of it 20 years down the road.

    7. Jadelyn*

      Definitely coach him on that, although as Alison said, not relying on “teamwork” but on accuracy and honesty.

      I’d also make a point to ask him, what would you do if someone takes this at face value, and asked you to *actually* develop this type of report on your own, without someone else writing the actual query that got the data? Just to try to drive home that overinflating his capabilities can be directly damaging to him, since he seems like the type who only cares about something being bad if it actually hurts him personally.

    8. Thlayli*

      You are supposed to be doing his annual review. In my industry that would mean its actually your job to go through it with him and explain where you are changing his answers and why.

      Personally I think self evaluation is such a load of crap anyway. I had to do a self evaluation this week and I gave myself maximum points in everything – why should I shoot myself in the foot? If my boss thinks I deserve less than max in anything he can explain why, it’s not my job to reduce the chance of getting a raise.

      why would anyone give themselves a bad review? Everyone should be trying to put a positive spin on things. It sounds like this guy just took it a little bit too far, and you absolutely should teach him how far he can take it before it’s just outright lying.

      1. Beatrice*

        I give myself honest self-evaluations with a slightly positive spin. Where I work, evaluating myself with the highest marks across the board would come off as a serious lack of self-awareness, possibly to the point of being delusional, and it would hurt me. I have honestly rated myself as “needs improvement” in an area when I was new to a job and my skills in that area objectively needed some work.

        My goal used to be to never ever rate myself higher than my boss would rate me on anything, and I considered it a good outcome when my boss evaluated me higher than I evaluated myself in one or two areas. I’m the opposite now – I err on the high side just a bit, and the result is that my boss matches me or rates me lower by a point in one area.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Yeah I used to be too modest. Then I realized our self evaluations were getting tied to our bonuses. I was talking myself out of money (and I bet there’s a gender disparity there). Now I try to be generous and let my boss talk me down if he feels differently.

          1. Specialk9*

            Exactly. Annual reviews are so often crap in my profession, and that’s a direct or indirect quote from several bosses. But they are tied to bonuses, so I talk myself up.

          2. Optimistic Prime*

            Yeah, that’s me. I’m enthusiastic and positive about myself in my annual reviews. I work in a male-dominated industry and I know all the men are probably doing the same thing. My boss has to review my evaluation anyway, so if there’s something wrong she’ll tell me!

      2. BenAdminGeek*

        Thlayli, do you feel you’re actually at the top ranking for your role? I always focus on as accurate a score as possible. I had a peer who rated himself a 5/5 on all 12 ranking factors at OldJob, and it was definitely A THING with my boss. It showed that he had a very over-inflated view of his role and job performance, and was a strike against him. But obviously if you are performing great in all aspects, you should rank that honestly.

        1. Thlayli*

          I actually do think I’m at the top in my role, but that’s irrelevant. Tying self-evaluation to financial gain is just rewarding confidence and punishing self-doubt. I told my boss I was giving myself top marks and it was up to him to argue me down because self-evaluation is a load of crap and he laughed. I doubt it’s going to hurt me.

    9. Jules*

      Oh gosh, please coach him. I had a co-worker who did this. I didn’t stay on the team long. All our hard work became his initiative. He barely has enough experience to do his job.

    10. neverjaunty*

      Make a record for the next person who has to deal with this jamoke.

      And stop sabotaging yourself! You don’t need to hasten to add that you don’t want credit. Why SHOULDN’T you want the credit for your own work?

      1. Supervisee took credit for my work in his self-evaluation*

        Tbh I think I’ve been poisoned by the culture of my workplace. I’m genuinely surprised everyone here has been on my side–I thought some might say I’m being a nitpicky b*tch, he’s young and doesn’t know better, let him have some victories, etc. Because that’s how all the senior managers act towards the two of us. When I want credit I’m being difficult, when he wants credit, boy does he get it. =\

        2. Bigglesworth*

          Noooooooooooooooo. That is a very wrong way of thinking. You should get credit for what you did; he should get credit for what he does. Letting him “have some victories” should not equal “give him credit for stuff he didn’t do.” It devalues his actual contributions and work accomplishments when he receives credit for another person’s work (as well as, you know, the unethicalness doing it…)

    11. Phoenix Programmer*

      Please coach him. Sure his ego is inflated but he may honestly believe that writing up the report = developing the report. I use to make this mistake before I knew more of the behind the scenes project work.

      I had a mentor directly and kindly walk me through how a is not the same as AAA and it was really helpful!

    12. Someone else*

      I don’t know what you should do here, but let me just tell you, PREACH IT. Few things vex me as much at work as people who take credit for “creating the X report” when what they mean is that they, as a regular job duty, run that report, and I am the one who actually created said report, as in, wrote the stored procedure behind it, and made and deployed the damn report to the report server.

      1. Supervisee took credit for my work in his self-evaluation*

        Ugh yeah. I’m an amateur SQLer/report-maker myself (I learned/am learning it out of curiosity). So complex queries are a lot of work for me and it kills me when people think I’m basically doing the equivalent of Googling the database.

    13. SpaceNovice*

      I would add “just because you didn’t do it completely on your own doesn’t mean you aren’t useful” to that assessment that everyone mentions. Humility is important. People won’t want to work with someone who lies about their accomplishments. He needs to let other people have accomplishments and give kudos. Start sharing, stop hording. If people actually think he’s done all those things, they’ll expect him to do those things that are beyond him, and then he will fail. And he will continue to fail. Or they’ll realize he’s lying and fire him (or never hire him in the first place). You need to nip this in the bud because he’s either a jerk or has gotten bad advice from someone. In the second case, it’s fairly easy to fix, but the first one is harder to fix or impossible. These people often do well enough to stay on a team, but eventually ruin it if they don’t reform.

      I would talk to someone upstream about it first before you do the review. He might be someone to complain about this sort of thing, and you need a second opinion. Frame it as you want to help him figure out how to navigate the workplace harmoniously rather than hurt his career. (You need to go ahead because if this guy IS a problem, he’s going to go complain to someone higher and get a sympathetic ear.. unless you let them know ahead of time and they can see the behavior as it is.)

  12. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    My coworker, who sits four cubes away from me, has started humming. Like, all the time. It’s very noticeable — people in cubes even farther away than me have commented on it — and (only slightly) bothersome.

    So I should say something to her, right?

    But it feels… wrong? bad? cruel? to take away her small joy.

    What would you do?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I’d be nice but mention it. “I’m sorry, Jane, I’m finding it a little hard to concentrate with you humming. Would you mind trying to reign it in?” This is not mean, it’s factual – and she is violating a norm of open offices, however much joy it brings her. You might have to mention it more than once because with some people it’s a bit of a habit they’re unaware of.

    2. Angela B.*

      One of my coworkers at my last job always hummed when she was walking around, back and forth from the stacks (that could be eerie because you’d get down there to pull something and there’s just this disembodied humming in this very large, cavernous, echo-y space), in the bathroom… and one of my coworkers at my current job sometimes decides today is the day she wants to sing to herself at her desk in the afternoon, only we can all hear her. It’s pretty annoying but it happens infrequently enough that I just put up with it. I think how you handle your situation depends on how slightly bothersome it really is. If you can drown it out with headphones enough of the time to feel sane and it really doesn’t bother you all that much, I would just leave it. And it may even become one of those weird white noise things of your office that you tune out after a week or so (unless it’s been that long and you’re still hearing it!). If it does start to bug you, though, I think you have standing to say something, nicely. You’re all sharing the space and to a certain extent in a functioning office, everyone is doing things differently than they would at home to make it a comfortable shared space. Like, yes, I would love to blare Led Zeppelin at my desk most days, but I don’t, I use headphones out of respect for the people around me.

      1. Mickey Q*

        I just walk up to them and say “No singing.” I also do this to strangers who want to sing along with their Ipod in public.

        1. Zona the Great*

          If a stranger walked up to me and said that, I’d just respond with, “yes singing” and walk away.

    3. Not So Super-visor*

      I had this happen in my department, but instead of someone mentioning it to me (I sit too far away to have heard it), they made an anonymous ethics complaint about it!

      1. Nanc*

        Unethical humming? Exactly what tune were they humming?

        I’m so sorry you had to deal with that!

    4. Pollygrammer*

      If you haven’t said anything yet, I think the first step can be a good-humored “Coworker, you’re humming.”

      Perfectly friendly, accounting for the possibility that she doesn’t realize she’s doing it, and implying that if she did know she was doing it, she would stop, because humming around coworkers is weird.

    5. Zee Panda*

      I am a chronic hummer myself; I’ve never once been angry, insulted, or hurt by someone’s request for me to stop. It does sometimes require some serious effort on my part so I appreciate it when people are willing to be kind about my occasional slip up (and I do tell people in advance that it’s possible I will) and remind me again to stop, but I’d really rather not annoy other people. Your co-worker probably doesn’t either – a simple, direct request will probably work wonders.

    6. INeedANap*

      I feel you so strongly here.

      My office culture is VERY open door, but we have a colleague from another department who comes by a few times a day for work reasons. This colleague is super, super nice and I really like his optimism and great attitude. But…

      He whistles. Loudly. And it’s incredibly piercing and distracting. But I can’t shut my door, and I can’t ask him to stop because he and his awesome cheerfulness are universally beloved. It would be like kicking a puppy.

      So I just internally roll my eyes and deal with it.

    7. another person*

      Yeah, I’d say something. I sometimes find myself humming or singing at work when other people are around without noticing (a lot of the time I work weird hours, so it’s only me and then it’s fine, also I just in general spend a lot of time alone) so personally I would appreciate if someone just commented a quick “oh, you’re singing” so that I would notice it and stop.

    8. Anxa*

      Whoa. This was my life 2 years ago. I snapped so many pencils, went on so many extra ‘bathroom breaks’ just to my remove myself from that situation, I can’t believe I forgot about it.

      My coworker now eats apples and chips DAILY in our work area and as angry as it makes me, it only lasts for about 2 hours of the of day (so. many. chips). Humming is so much harder because it’s incessant.

      So apparently what I would do is seethe silently and just switch to internet surfing and give up on trying to be productive (my job doesn’t require being productive during downtime and doesn’t really reward ambition, so it doesn’t affect much), but I don’t recommend that.

      I think my goal this month is to say something.

    9. Courageous cat*

      My old employee did that and for me, the key is just to be very matter-of-fact/slightly humorous about it without putting extra emotion into it (like being super nice). At some point I was like “John, your humming is slowly killing me.” and then every time he did it afterward I would just say “Humming.” and he would stop.

  13. Dingo*

    So my 10 o’clock interviewee isn’t here yet, at a few minutes past. If she doesn’t show, that’s the fourth person in a row. 2 who called to cancel, and 2 who just didn’t show up. I don’t know what’s happening. I’m helping to find my own replacement, and I’ve only got a couple weeks left. I’m not sure why these interviews keep falling through! Any clues as to why?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Do you do a phone screen first? That’s usually a bit of a “test” – have them call you at the set time. If they don’t call, no need to proceed.

      1. Dingo*

        I’ll suggest this to my boss. I know there’s some sort of screening because they go through the company recruiter first, but I’m not sure how thorough.

        1. Ri*

          Is the recruiter potentially at fault here? I’ve heard a lot of bad recruiter stories from the applicant side- eg one who ‘arranged’ an interview for my friend, only to cancel with an hour notice, three times in a row! (There was obviously no interview and he was trying to string her along). I wonder if something similar is happening here, or if some kind of recruiter incompetence is stopping the information flow between you and the candidates?

    2. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Any chance your company has a bad reputation (justified or not)? Are people saying, “I have an interview at ABC Company” and their friends are saying, “Don’t work there, it is hell!”

      Are you thoroughly screening your applicants?

      1. Dingo*

        I don’t think our company has a large enough presence in the town for that, but there is a mix of glass door reviews, some very positive and some very negative, due to each location being run differently. The biggest note throughout the whole thing is that the hours are long, which they are, but that’s also advertised in the original posting they applied to.

        1. Irene Adler*

          Glassdoor has a new feature where the company can respond to the posted reviews. Might address the negatives – and confirm the positives that reflect an accurate view of your company.

    3. HR preggers*

      That’s the new norm. And its across ALL generations. All the HR ppl I know have said the same thing no matter the industry. When I schedule interviews I send a email reminder with a note saying if for any reason you can’t make the interview please email or call me. That has reduced our no shows a lot. It has increased the number of canceled interviews but at least then I’m not sitting around waiting for someone to show up.
      And don’t stress too much. If they don’t find anyone before your gone that’s your problem not theirs. You’re already helping them by trying to find your replacement.

      1. Luna*

        Really?! That is just so bizarre to me. I can’t imagine just not showing up to a job interview!

        1. Lil Fidget*

          It’s more common in hourly or food service jobs than in full time salaried positions, I find.

        2. Bea*

          That’s the curse of having solid work ethic. We never understand flakes, I took this so personally when I went through the hell last year. An entire day of no shows.

      3. Muriel Heslop*

        I think it has to be field specific. I work at a public middle school. We’ve had twelve interviews in the last month and everyone has showed. We will be interviewing throughout the spring (we have two vacancies and will probably have more to come) and people almost always show up. A few people have been late but we have never had a no show.

      4. nonymous*

        Not in hiring, but yes, I agree that there is an emerging? school of thought that “no response” means “not happening”, even in professional correspondence. Then there are the people who reply excessively, and the ones that “no response” means “of course”.

        Of course those differing perspectives make it difficult to plan around! It can help to have a sentence clarifying what perspective the organizer is taking, and I personally lean towards phrasing that makes the people who want the activity to occur to take action (unless political power comes into the equation). But that doesn’t address people who don’t read completely!

        1. Bea*

          Fml you’re me. Make solid procedure documents. They’ll drop someone in fine enough without you to train, been there so often. Shocked at the no shows but I have had crap recruiters send in AP clerks for a full charge position, so I trust nobody to screen for me.

    5. Eye of Sauron*

      People are self-selecting themselves into the rejected bucket.

      Last round of interviews I did in my location had the same problem, I wouldn’t read too much into it.

    6. A.Ham*

      Today IS a holiday.
      That being said, while I can MAYBE understand someone not realizing the day was a holiday when they agreed to come in for an interview, I CAN’T imagine just no call/no show for something like that… That boggles my mind.

      1. Bea*

        It’s a stretch to think anyone is closed for Good Friday unless they’re applying at a religious organization.

          1. Bea*

            I had to Google that. The US doesn’t use that terminology.

            The mail runs and banks are open, which is what we usually runs on around here.

          3. Fortitude Jones*

            Nope, my office is still open. In fact, I’ve never worked in an office where Good Friday was a paid holiday.

          4. Anxa*

            I’m at a satellite comm college right now. We’re open, but the county offices in the building are closed.

        3. Aleta*

          Eh, I’ve had a bunch of people call the contracting business I work for to check to see if we were open today and Monday.

        4. nonymous*

          I think it’s more common in certain geographic regions – Boston and parts of Chicago come to mind.

          1. nonymous*

            edit: in my old midwest university city, spring break is always just before or after Easter. Perhaps less religion and more about gathering regional family for celebrations?

          2. Bea*

            This makes sense to me.

            I’ve never been outside the grand Ol Pacific region and may be blinded by manufacturing/consumer goods because we stop very rarely because people don’t like waiting.

        6. Bad Candidate*

          I work in insurance and a lot of carriers and brokers are closed today. We aren’t though. :(

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Don’t feel bad – my insurance company never closes on Good Friday either, which was surprising to me since the CEOs are very religious.

            1. Bad Candidate*

              Eh, I get the day after Thanksgiving off now and I didn’t at the last company I was at, where I did get Good Friday. So there are trade offs.

        7. A.Ham*

          I wasn’t so much thinking they assumed the office was closed, as they had something going on that day (church with family, or something like that) that they forgot about. But still cant imagine that they wouldn’t call to cancel…

    7. Bea*

      This is typical. Is your job a popular one? We had this happen with CSR roles in two companies. I agree phone screens help to pin down interest but you’ll still get cancellations.

      1. She Who Needs a Username*

        Also, I would cut yourself some slack. You sound worried that they won’t be able to hire someone in time, but that’s not your problem to worry about. It’s very unfortunate and it’s understandable for you to feel bad but I got the impression you might be taking it personally.

    8. R2D2*

      Any chance your office building is difficult to find, or easily confused with another business?

  14. JobinPolitics*

    Networking email etiquette

    As I continue to search for positions within political campaigns and advocacy groups, my contacts are sending out introductory emails or directing me to email people myself.

    I wonder if there’s a specific protocol for such emails. Because I’m not responding to a job ad, I don’t know if beyond name dropping a shared contact and summarizing my background and interest there’s much I need/should do. Is it too forward to include a resume and a phone number? Should I suggest a coffee meeting?

    Please let me know your thoughts. This is the first time I’ve attempted to secure employment without responding to job ads.

    Thanks for your time!

    1. fposte*

      I always vote for include the resume–it’s making more work for them to ask you for it and they can always ignore it if they’re not interested.

    2. Barney Barnaby*

      “Good morning John and Jane,

      John, thank you for connecting me with Jane.

      Jane, John suggested that we get in touch because I am looking for a field coordinator position in a campaign. He mentioned that you have a lot of experience in this area/supervising people in this area/etc. (Quick skills summary.) I would love to hear about your experiences. Please let me know if you have time to connect and what would be best for you.

      Best/Regards/etc,

      Barney Barnaby
      (212) 123-4567
      barney.barnaby @ email dot com”

      1. JobinPolitics*

        Barney Barnaby, thank you for the mock email. I write something similar but structure it like a cover letter with more details about my background and interest and include my contact information in both the body of the email and in my email signature.

      2. zora*

        This is right on. ALWAYS attach your resume (it just makes it easier for everyone if they already have it, they can ignore it if they don’t want it)

        And also include some specifics about what jobs you are looking for and what your geographical issues are (are you willing to relocate or not, how far are you willing to commute, etc).

        And instead of the last 2 sentences, I’d say “I would love to hear of any positions you know of, or if you have time to chat about your advice to someone starting out in the campaign field. I’d be available to meet in person or talk over the phone at your convenience.”

        You might be reaching out to people who aren’t currently in your location, campaign people tend to be nomads.

        Don’t worry about being too ‘forward’ it’s better to be really honest and specific about what you are looking for rather than making them guess or have to ask you a bunch of questions. They are used to getting these kinds of messages all the time, don’t be nervous!

        1. JobinPolitics*

          Thanks, Zora!

          I hadn’t thought too much about the geographical issues because I’ve been contacting local political people. It’s definitely something to keep in mind.

          I appreciate your comment and hope to share good news with you soon!

          1. zora*

            Well if everyone is definitely local, then don’t worry about offering a phone call. But in my experience people might be traveling for a meeting, or working a campaign in a different area, but they might still have lots of contacts in your local area. Just something to be aware of.

            1. JobinPolitics*

              Zora, I actually had to talk with someone from city council because he’s in between meetings at the moment. It was a phone call or nothing. The call was productive and led to another contact. It’s slow going, and I’m trying to be mindful of my contacts’ time and resources.

    3. grace*

      Okay, bearing in mind that I don’t have a job in pols but was pursuing it and hunted for a bit before finding my current one… This is most of the advice I’ve been given, and found worked, at least for setting up info interview: After the intro email, respond directly to the person they’re introducing you to (Person X). Be open, friendly, attach your resume after your meet up (or so was the advice I was given – make sure you bring it up in the meeting, but it’s going to be obvious you’re looking for a job, and my experience is that you don’t need to beat around the bush with it), and ask if they’d like to grab a coffee and chat about what their job is like and how they found it. The worst they can do is say they don’t have time; the best is that they’ll know who you are and have a copy of your resume, and know who to pass it along to. Or maybe they’re the person to pass it along to! :)

      What I generally wrote was something like: “Hi, X! I’m really glad ‘Amanda’ connected us; your organization/campaign/job is really interesting, and I’d love to hear more about how you got into this field and what you do. Do you have half an hour to grab coffee [next week]? I’m flexible on times and locations, so let me know what works best for you and I can find a place. I’m easily reached either through email or my cell: (XXX)XXX-XXXX. Looking forward to meeting you! Best, JobinPolitics’

      1. grace*

        I’ll also add that I had a lot of anxiety about just giving my resume out (which it sounds like you might?) so it was easier for me to meet them first and THEN email it to them – generally with a quick blurb about how great it was to meet them, i enjoyed talking to them about x specific thing, and here was my resume as we discussed, I’d love to stay in touch, have a great day.

        1. JobinPolitics*

          Grace, it’s not so much anxiety as it is feeling presumptuous. I’m in the American Midwest where manners are important, and I don’t want to risk alienating a contact my dumping all of my information on him/her/them at once.

          Typically, I write an email outlining my background and interests in the position. Then, I ask about meeting for coffee or speaking on the phone. I prefer to discuss my professional background and career goals before sharing my resume, unless I’m applying for an open position.

          Maybe I’m being too polite. Should I be more assertive with sharing information?

          1. zora*

            Be more assertive and upfront about what exactly you are looking for. And just attach your resume. Campaign people are super busy, it’s about saving them time because they have it if they want to send it to someone else, or just if they prefer scanning a resume before they answer your email.

            Keep the email short with maybe a 2 sentence summary of your background and skills. And 1 sentence about exactly what kind of job you are looking for and where.

            Campaign people will not be alienated, they are busy so cut to the chase and make everything as easy for them as possible.

            1. zora*

              And honestly, you want to model how you are going to be as a staffer on a campaign. There isn’t a lot of time to beat around the bush. They need people who will be assertive and concise and get right to the point without being rude. As staff you need to jump in and do that task right now, and early in campaigns they need people who will take initiative and get shit done quickly. Think about this as running a campaign for yourself to get a job and what would you do if you were doing this task for your candidate.

          2. Marthooh*

            Re: Midwestern politeness — You can be hepful as well as humble!

            “My resume is attached in case you want to see it.”

    4. Legal Beagle*

      You pretty much said it all! Mention the shared contact who referred you, write 2-3 sentences about your educational/professional background, tell them what you want to talk to them about (i.e., “your work on Senator Llama’s election campaign”), your goal (i.e., “I’m currently looking for a job in llama campaigns”) and say you’re hoping to set up a coffee meeting or phone call, if they’re available.

      Also, as the networker, I don’t attach a resume to the first email, but that’s just personal preference. (When I’m the person being networked, I find it a little pushy.) But I know people who do like to receive a resume straight away. The shared connection should get you enough goodwill that it won’t matter either way. Good luck!!

      1. JobinPolitics*

        Legal Beagle, I share your perspective that immediately attaching a resume for networking can be read as pushy. I do explain my work history and why I’m reaching out to them. In the introductory email, I don’t get too specific because I don’t want to risk being immediately written off. To date, I’ve had a fairly positive response.

        Thanks for your wishes of luck! I’m remain hopeful at this time.

  15. sesame plexer*

    What is the best way to handle a situation where your team member constantly complains about how busy they are but refuses to delegate? I have been at this job around nine months and he’s been there over ten years. I don’t report to him but he’s definitely in a higher role than me but we’re on the same team. I don’t know if he’s not delegating because he thinks I can’t do it or just has a hard time letting go but I’m starting to get annoyed at the 1am emails when he refuses my offers to help.

    1. Adlib*

      I don’t have a lot to offer other than saying I’ve been there before. My previous supervisor would take on everything and get frustrated with having so much to do while I basically twiddled my thumbs even after I constantly asked if I could help. I haven’t had that problem with others after her departure so I think it’s just really hard for some people to let go.

      It is weird that he’s emailing about being overwhelmed at 1 AM though. Maybe somehow bring up those emails when you offer to help? Either way, good luck! I know how frustrating that is.

    2. Eye of Sauron*

      Eh, I wouldn’t give it a second thought. Unless he’s missing deadlines that affect your work, his workload is on him.

    3. Alli525*

      Well, if you’re definitely the one he should be delegating to (i.e. you’re in a support role or your job description includes helping with projects he’s managing, as opposed to your volunteering just because you want to help him be less stressed) then I would maybe reframe your offers of help to include WHY you’d be ideal to help with something and WHAT you’d be able to do. “Oh, you’re slammed with the teapot handle redesign? [Boss] said I was really helpful with project-managing the teapot lid redesign six months ago, so what if I took a stab at sorting through the RFPs and we can see where that gets us?”

      Ultimately though, it’s really, really hard for some people to delegate, and it’s up to their manager to have those conversations with them. I’m one of those people, because often it takes just as long to check someone’s work and correct their mistakes than it is to just do it myself, but my boss keeps pushing me (gently!) to offload some of my work. You might consider bringing it up with your mutual boss: “I saw that Fergus is pretty slammed, but somewhat resistant to delegate – would it be useful to him if I helped him with the redesign project?”

      1. nonymous*

        > because often it takes just as long to check someone’s work and correct their mistakes than it is to just do it myself

        I find that it really helps to have a rubric in mind for this situation. How do you check your own work? With your own work product, obviously you wouldn’t re-do everything as verification, and likewise it’s not realistic to assume everything has been done to perfection. More likely you have internalized what checks are needed for “good enough” or are using bits of automated processes that have been validated in some way (informal validation can just be “I’ve used this for X cases without issue so I trust it”). Maybe there’s an internal checklist or flowchart you have in mind? So when delegating, is this set of tools being passed along as well?

        fwiw, it could be simply that the suite of documentation I’ve described is essentially capturing decades of experience which others in your workplace don’t have. In that case, there can be value in teasing out what each team member can do with competence and redistributing the workload accordingly. So maybe instead of Fergus being swamped by the number of teapots to paint for the big clients and Jane twiddling thumbs because her clients order less, Jane can paint the solid color orders and Fergus can do the detail custom paint jobs.

        In parallel to big picture re-framing, have you considered doing review in a side-by-side environment? Like “Jane, could you split this stack of reports with me? Let’s meet after we get the first couple done to make sure we’re tackling things in a consistent manner.” Jane might appreciate the chance to ask questions or have some insight due to fresh perspective.

        1. Alli525*

          True, although the people I supervise in my easiest, most commonly-delegated task are very inexperienced and make the most random mistakes, and my finished product isn’t one that can have lower standards because senior-level people count on it. My documentation is really thorough, it’s just a really detail-heavy task. So even though it should be easy to do well, I never know what kind of bizarre mistake will be made when I get it back, and then I have trouble trusting my team with slightly more complex tasks.

    4. StressedButOkay*

      I have been there – not in your position but in his! For the longest time, my organization didn’t have the resources to bring anyone in to help with the workload. For several years, everyone was incredibly overworked but we still managed to hit our deadlines, got those teapots made, etc.

      We’re in a different position now and are bringing on new hires nearly every month, including my department. And as thrilled as I am about it, I weirdly find myself very protective of ‘my’ work. Because while yes, it’s been the source of headaches, stress, and long, long days, it’s work I care very deeply about.

      Splitting up pieces of my work to others – to help me! – is surprisingly stressful. So I wouldn’t assume this is about you – if he’s like me, he’s probably become weirdly protective of what he’s been working on. In time, it shouldn’t be as bad.

    6. Teapot librarian*

      Ooh, I have one of those on my team. He reports to me and I’ve been trying for two years to get him to delegate tasks. My solution is that I promoted the person he should be delegating to into a completely different type of role and am hiring a new person with more experience into the delegatee role so he can’t say “but I don’t have time to train” or “but Coworker doesn’t have the experience to do this.” I realize that this is not a sustainable and transferrable solution but I’m excited about it. (Also I’m working on performance improvement for him regarding the failure to delegate. It’s on his performance management plan so I’m on solid ground.)

    7. DataQueen*

      Some people like just being Very Busy and Important and it’s an ego thing. there could be issues where he doesn’t trust others to help with his work, or whatever, but for me (i do this, i admit it!) when i talk about how busy i am, it’s probably because I’m feeling underappreciated or demeaned and want to make sure everyone knows that I am Very Busy.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Some people like just being Very Busy and Important and it’s an ego thing.

        THIS. I had a coworker like this – come to find out, he wasn’t doing any work and that’s why he was always busy. The company eventually fired him, but it was two years too late.

    8. Jady*

      I’m one of those hard-to-delegate people.

      There are a few reasons I’ve experienced. “They” just refers to whomever the person was at the time in that scenario.

      – This is really the root of most of my problems: I keep losing co-workers (either to quitting or upstairs moving them projects/positions). I don’t want to spend a month training someone who may not be here the next month. I’ve begged upstairs multiple times to give me a permanent person. The work is very deadline-intensive, and at least one coworker quit due to the stress of that, one had unrelated health problems and couldn’t keep up with the workload so they were moved, one died of cancer, 2 were given temporarily (in terms of weeks).
      – Things are heavily process-intensive with numerous variables, and that takes a long time to learn and teach.
      – They just have to learn some things before other things will be doable. There’s a lot of technical jargon, customer demands and behavior, use cases, etc. It doesn’t make sense for them to try X without certain foundations.
      – They have no sense of urgency (when it’s due). They aren’t concerned about deadlines and/or getting everything done in time, or they just work too slowly.
      – Things have a lot of moving pieces that are required to complete the work. This often involves equipment and setup, other departments, filling out forms and paperwork properly and timely, knowing who you have to push, or who to contact for problems, or how to even identify problems in the first place.

      I want to delegate more, I really do. But it isn’t always as simple as “here, take this and go do that”.

    9. Casuan*

      :::throwing my thoughts into the ring:::
      Save your sanity & ignore timestamps.

      Do what you can to offer help. Ask your colleague what you can do to help; I like Jules the Third’s cross-training suggestion, although the caveat is if your colleague probably doesn’t have time or he’d be doing already.

      Ask your supervisor for guidance “Fergus always seems so busy & when I ask what I can take from him, he can’t think of anything. Do you know of anything I could do to support him? Or is there additional training available so I can be of better assistance for our team?”
      nb: Be careful that you phrase this as a genuine desire to support your team member, as opposed to sounding like a complaint.

      Let your colleague know you’re willing to help if he ever needs it.

      Once you’ve done all you can to offer support, then it is officially Not Your Problem. Presumably management knows if any work is compromised & they would act accordingly.

      If Fergus continues to complain without cause [ie: it’s one thing to be genuinely overloaded yet another to self-induce] & you’re tired of hearing about it, then a polite “Fergus, I understand you’re always stressed & overworked. I don’t mind you telling me this every so often, although would you please scale this back? It’s disruptive to my own work.”*

      *bonus phrase, appended to the last sentence:
      “… & bringing down my own morale. It’s especially frustrating because you never ask for & accept help.”

      full disclosure: I’ve been on both sides of this debate several times over. And probably I will again.
      ;-/

  16. Downwardly Mobile*

    How would you go about finding/securing a job with less responsibility than you have right now? I am in my mid-fifties, have lots of experience in my field, and make a pretty good salary as an individual contributor. My new boss is nearly unbearable (I posted last week under the name “Petty Liar’s Staff Member”) and I really want to make a change. I have been thinking for a few years that when I’m about 10 years from retirement, I’d like to start ramping down my level of responsibility.

    A very large national company is hiring for three remote positions in my field – this is practically unheard of, as the type of work I do typically requires people to be onsite. These jobs are at a lower level than I am right now, but I would really like to work in this capacity, even at a lower salary. To illustrate how much I want this, I am currently a candidate for a job with the word “Director” in the title, and I’d actually prefer one of these jobs which only require 3-5 years experience.

    I have spoken in the past with a recruiter from the large national company – it was more of an informational interview – and have even been a job candidate with them for a similar role (higher level and not remote) but I had to withdraw because they were not prepared to make a decision and I had the offer which landed me in my current job. That was about 6 months ago. I am scheduled to speak with her again today; I do not think she is the recruiter for any of these open remote positions, but I believe she could highlight any application.

    How can I make it clear I am OK with a pay cut within reason? How can I prove my interest in a role similar (yet more junior) to one I had withdraw my candidacy over so recently? And if I am not successful this time, how do I go about selling myself for any kind of more junior position, remote or not?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’ve done this.

      I did it by addressing very clearly why I was interested in the particular job I was applying for in my cover letter, and in the interview speaking candidly about the change I was hoping to make.

      This may have been made easier by being in the nonprofit sector, where it’s common to spend a lot of time writing/talking about why you’re excited by the job/mission/etc.

      But I think you could do this with integrity in other fields as well. What about the low-level jobs interest you? Is it truly just that it’s easier/calmer/etc.? Or are you excited to go back to the work that first interested you in this field, or to focus on the piece of your work that you’re most skilled at, or to make the shift from being a generalist to a specialist, or so on.

      In terms of taking a pay cut “within reason,” do make sure that your expectations are in alignment with the reality of the pay scale for the lower paying jobs. They aren’t likely to pay you substantially more than they had planned just because you have more experience. I took a 37% pay cut to come to the job I’m in now. I negotiated them to the very top of their range (which was public, so I knew what I was getting into), but they wouldn’t have paid more than that.

    2. Bea*

      I dropped down from a supervisory role easy by saying it was messing my work life balance up. If you’re clear that you’re aware it’s a little less than your experience and are winding down your career perhaps, they shouldn’t worry too much. It will always depend on who is doing the hiring, some will always back away but in my experience most are happy to have a person want the job for what it is.

    3. OtterB*

      When you say “ramping down your level of responsibility,” what exactly does that mean to you? Since you said you’re an individual contributor, it’s not stepping back from management. Working on smaller projects? Getting away from long hours / constant on-call / etc.? I agree with Victoria Nonprofit that you want to be clear on what appeals to you about the low-level jobs. You want your expectations to align with the reality of the job so that you don’t sound (a) out of touch or (b) like you’re looking for an opportunity to do as little as possible until you retire.

    4. nonymous*

      In mine and husband’s orgs remote work is a privilege and is not offered to junior staff. Even when hiring for jobs that can only be done remotely (like fieldwork), those positions don’t go to applicants new to the industry because they are basically self-supervising and require a great deal of trust. As someone in a fully remote position, there is definitely an expectation that one problem-solves at a higher level than with others in earshot, so it can help if the person is a little bit overqualified when it comes to technical execution of details (even if it’s just about knowing who to call).

      I like what the others have suggested about framing this job in the context of your career, but the trust angle is one which you are uniquely qualified for, so please don’t sell yourself short.

    5. StarHunter*

      Yes, agree with the posters – let them know why you are doing what you want to do. I just finished hiring for a lower-level supervisory role at my non-profit and got resumes from executive directors with no note as to why they were interested in a much lower position. Since there was no explanation I disregarded their resumes.

    6. Downwardly Mobile*

      Thanks for all your responses. Quick update: I spoke with the general recruiter, and she passed my info on to the recruiter for this job, who has already contacted me and wants to speak with me on Monday!

      @Victoria Nonprofit, I think it’s common in the for-profit sector to have to be able to frame what excites you about a particular job. My job is both creative and numbers/data driven. I think I could make a good case for wanting to focus more on the numbers and less on the creative side, but in truth, I want this particular job because of the work-from-home aspect. The idea of having no commute, and having more time to eat well, sleep and exercise more at this stage of my life is very valuable to me. Plus less responsibility = less stress (one would think). I talked to my husband about the salary requirements and we came up with number we both could be comfortable with.

      @Bea, I am always afraid to talk about work/life balance because – even though people cite it as a job benefit when it’s good – there seems to be an unwritten rile that we don’t talk about it (except to complain to our peers) when it’s bad. I’m glad it worked for you, though. I will have to give this some more thought.

      @OtterB, I don’t manage people – I manage projects (meaning project teams look to me to lead even though none of the individuals report to me) and I manage budgets for those projects. In a new role, I would be a contributor to similar projects. Good point about not coming across as wanting to do as little as possible until I retire!

      @nonymous, you make a good point about people in remote roles needing to problem solve at a higher level. I will keep this in mind!

      @StarHunter, in my last job hunt, I applied to a few lower level jobs; you would have appreciated my well-crafted cover letters ;-). Unfortunately, I never got a response from the firms I applied to.

  17. RetailGal*

    One of our managers is out for two weeks on vacation, which is fine by me. The problem, though, is that our company doesn’t budget for coverage when someone’s out on scheduled leave. I’m trying to pick up the slack with my manager’s absence, but only with scraps of hours here and there if someone happens to call out of a shift. (My manager is the only FTE that does this particular job) I would love to have another 12 hours of just working on what’s usually my manager’s responsibility, and I would feel like I had a better grip. I’ll be lucky if I get 6. There’s been times in the past year or so where I’ve had to calm my manager off the proverbial edge because she’s been so stressed. I feel I was very near that point at the end of my shift yesterday. Yesterday gave me a big kick in the rear to get back to really looking for a job in City I Want To Move To. Got a resume and cover letter off last night to a company where I’d really like to work. I then hopped on Indeed to look for some more openings, and saw one for a position I interviewed for last summer…got all the way to the peer interview, but didn’t get the job. That seems to happen frequently to me. It’s frustrating. Then! Hearing about serious health scare/problems of a coworker from my other PT job…who isn’t much older than me. Not the most fun day yesterday.

    Plus, this gloomy and chilly weather here in the midwest can just…make itself scarce. It certainly doesn’t help my mood.

  18. Sloan Kittering*

    Sidenote to Alison: I’ve noticed how much less buggy the site is lately. The ads always used to crash my computer but now that never happens any more. Congrats to your team for taking care of it. Also, good luck with your book!

    1. Aleta*

      It’s still buggy for me on my work computer, but I’ve noticed it’s waaaaaaay better in recent weeks, too!

    4. Beatrice*

      I noticed this too! I used to leave comment threads I’m interested in open at work so I could read a couple of minutes here and there between tasks at work, and the site would inevitably crash after an hour or two (and that never happened on shopping/news sites that I browse similarly). I haven’t had any crashes in at least a week.

  19. Pup Seal*

    Is this a weird pet peeve or is it just me? My boss likes to say “I need you” a lot. Not “I need you to do xyz before deadline” or “I need you to get this done.” She also says it emotionally. It makes me feel uncomfortable and makes me feel she’s emotionally needs me. Am I just being too sensitive?

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        +1. It’s especially weird when they’re your boss and not your peer because it’s so much harder to push back on.

    2. Bea*

      No. Even as a dedicated EA I’ve never dealt with that kind of thing. I’ve gotten “I couldn’t do this without you” and grown man near-tears when I left but just saying “I need you.” is awkward at very least. She needs to stop.

      1. Artemesia*

        This seems like a bog standard locution to soften (as women do) a direct order. Not ‘do this by COB’ but ‘I need you to do this by COB’. I don’t see it as weird or odd but as a complete normal phraseology. Of course I suppose if she drenched it in pathos it would be weird and perhaps she does. But the expression itself is totally normal and designed to sound more ‘business needs’ rather than ‘I the dictator order you to.’

        1. Someone else*

          I think Pup Seal was saying the boss specifically isn’t saying “I need you to do X by COB”, but rather is just saying “I need you.” As a standalone statement. And that’s what was weird/creepyish about it.

    3. nonymous*

      Is she using it in the “stop what you’re doing and come help me over here right now” context? I’ve seen it used that way both in a brusk fashion and when people feel overwhelmed ….and also in emotionally manipulative situations (but not a work environment).

      1. BenAdminGeek*

        Yes, I’ve had bosses use it as shorthand:”I need you (over here to help me with this spreadsheet).” But just “I need you” would be quite odd in my experience.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      If the workload is daunting, I can see her saying that.

      You can simply say, “I am here.”

      Or you can cheerfully say, “I will help with the work.”

      Or go with, “I think that is a compliment?”

      I would look at the workload you share and use that as a basis for thinking about this.

    5. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      I dunno if you’re being too sensitive, but that would weird me out too. Especially with the emotion behind it.
      I don’t want to be /neeeeeeeeeded/ by people.

    6. Triplestep*

      Can you give an example of how she says “I need you” that feels emotional? I can see a lot of commentors before me can conjure up an idea of what she might be saying, but other than “I need you to do this” or the like, I can’t imagine what she might be saying.

      That said, I one had a boss who apparently didn’t feel that I was emotionally invested enough in the way I provided my deliverables, and said that he wanted me to “pamper” him. *shudder*

    7. Casuan*

      Pup Seal, would you please give us more specific examples?

      If it’s “I need you to…” then I don’t think it bizarre or inappropriate as long as it’s delivered in a tone that conveys “The client needs this on deadline.”

      If it’s “I need you” in any other sense then I think this is bizarre & inappropriate unless there’s an emergency.
      It might be okay if used rarely, although if this phrase is to summon me to an office then I’m going to assume I need to abandon my current task & come post-haste to help with whatever [hopefully minor] urgency that’s arisen.

      You can ask her to stop.
      eg: “Would you please not use the phrase ‘I need you’ unless there’s an immediate reason for it? Sorry to ask, it’s just that I have some bad memories associated with those words. I haven’t asked before because I thought I could push through this & be okay… turns out I can’t.”

      Your boss doesn’t need to know that she’s the source of those memories, like when she said it yesterday.
      ;-D

      caveat: There’s a risk that you boss will devise a phrase that you hate even more.

      1. Courageous cat*

        I would not use that last one personally, it’s vague and yet it’s still already way too much emotion/intimate info put behind the reason. If you want to push back I would just say “I would prefer you didn’t use it” and maybe add “for personal reasons” at most.

    9. NoTurnover*

      That’s weird. I work at a 2.5 person organization that is coming out of a long state of crisis, so I have definitely THOUGHT “I need you,” but have avoided saying it. Because it is weird.

    10. Courageous cat*

      Sometimes I wonder how much of this is regional because I live in the south and I encounter this and other types of emotional displays alllll the time at various workplaces. I have found this kind of behavior is frequently normal and expected to be, because a lot of workplaces (right or wrong) treat each other as “family” and expect close-knit camaraderie. I see a lot of posts on here that talk about how things are inappropriate from bosses or coworkers, but everyone I’ve ever worked with would think the person was cold if they didn’t like this level of workplace intimacy.

      I dunno, it certainly doesn’t apply to all jobs in this area without a doubt, but it’s happened enough in my case that it makes me wonder.

  20. Andrea, not Andi*

    I’m curious how any of you would have handled this/if I could have done this differently.

    I was having my weekly checkin meeting with my boss, and I received a chat message from a coworker. Note that my messenger status was set to red/busy. The below is a rough approximate transcript of what transpired. We’ll say my name is something like Andrea that could be shortened but I don’t go by anything other than Andrea.

    Wakeen: good morning andi
    Wakeen: can I call you andi with an i?
    Wakeen: could you help me out with The Work Thing?
    [time elapses, meeting continues]
    Andrea: Andrea.
    Andrea: This is your answer on The Work Thing.
    Wakeen: Oh ok. blah blah blah

    I have a visceral response to the shortening of my name because it’s infantilizing and diminutive, particularly since I work in a very male field and my position is already not respected as being important. Could I have handled this differently and/or how could I handle this in the future?

    1. Murphy*

      I think you handled it fine. Just say directly “I prefer Andrea” and then move on. For most people, that should be enough.

      1. Mirth & Merry*

        Yes to Murphy.
        “Hi Andi” “My name is Andrea.”
        “Hey Andi can you do a thing?” “My name is Andrea”
        Your name is your name. Just keep repeating until they get it. I work in a male dominated industry as well so I totally get this. If you are feeling snarky or if someone in particular just won’t stop I ignore them and if they say something “Oh were you talking to me? I don’t know who Andi is, I’m Andrea.” After doing this a couple times with one hold out he finally got it. Good luck to you!

    3. Overeducated*

      I think you handled it fine, quick and to the point without making a big deal. What are you concerned about for next time?

      1. Andrea, not Andi*

        I think I’m just wondering if I wasn’t firm enough in getting my point across. My coworkers are sometimes willfully and happily blind to the elephant in the room, so it could turn into a thing when I really don’t have the capacity for it to be one. It’s *just* a name, but it’s my name.

        1. Natalie*

          I don’t think there’s any way to know that until and unless the same coworker tries to nickname you again. I would put it out of your mind for now.

          1. Bostonian*

            Natalie makes a good point. The time to get more firm is when someone tries to use a nickname after you’ve told them you don’t like it. In the first instance, a straightforward correction is the way to go.

            I was recently the person who accidentally called someone by a nickname (think “Jon” instead of “Jonathan”), and I felt SO BAD when he pointed out that he goes by “full name.” I was appreciative that he was matter-0f-fact about it, and not mean.

        2. Totally Minnie*

          I think you were reasonably firm for an opening salvo. I would say to just continue on in the same vein if it happens again. He calls you Andi, you respond with “I prefer to be called Andrea.”

          I have a name that’s got multiple shortened versions (along the lines of Elizabeth or Katherine), and that’s my go-to response when someone uses a different variation from the one I use. I tend to only escalate my language if I get weird pushback (“but Katherine is so formal, I’d rather call you something cutesy and familiar!”) or if it goes on for a really long time. Then it turns into “I’ve told you what my name is, and I am not willing to negotiate that with you.”

    4. Aunt Vixen*

      Sounds fine to me. If you want you could say “Thanks for asking, but no, it’s Andrea” or something *slightly* softer – but whatever you do don’t apologize for preferring to use your actual name.

      And definitely unsoften the second (or further) time the same person tries it.

    6. LemonLyman*

      In the future, I’d ignore it until my meeting was over. You’re not obligated to respond right away. Then, when you were done, you could either respond to the message or send a separate email reiterating you had been in a meeting and state,“I actually go by Andrea.” It’s not rude to let Walden know what name you prefer to use.

      I realize that it feels condescending to be called a name that you don’t feel is yours, but some people like giving nicknames based on the other person’s full name. It can be done to show familiarity with someone (even if they don’t have familiarity). I would suggest trying not to view it as the person is purposefully attempting to infantilize you by it. But definitely take the moment to correct them. It’s your name and you have the say in what you’re called. Now, if they continue with the nickname even after you’ve asked them to use your name, then they are being rude.

      1. fposte*

        I’m usually okay with waiting until afterwards, and I agree that it’s not necessarily about infantilization. But if the OP straight out gets asked, she can straight out answer; this isn’t something that has to be tiptoed around.

      2. Natalie*

        I think they did wait until the meeting was over? I assumed that’s what “[time elapses, meeting continues]” was referring to.

      3. Momma Bear*

        “Some people like giving nicknames” does NOT make it okay or less condescending or infantilizing. You’re one of those people, aren’t you? You like to give nicknames and “don’t mean it that way, it’s just something you do”
        STOP IT.

    7. jennifer not jen*

      I think this is okay. People try to do this to me all the time, except they don’t say “can I call you Jen?” They just do.
      Even when I introduce myself as Jennifer.
      Even when I sign every email as Jennifer.
      Even when I write out Jennifer on action items assignments.
      sigh

    8. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      You absolutely have a right to insist on being called by your correct name! I deal with this sometimes with my last name being misspelled and mispronounced and sometimes people act like I’m petty when I correct them but that is my name and not theirs so I get to decide that I want other people to use it correctly.

    9. Jess R.*

      I think you did great! I’m currently in the process of legally changing my name (for gender reasons — I’m nonbinary, but I’m not sharing that at work) and I’ve switched the name I use at work. What’s helped is being very matter of fact, like you were:
      “Can we still call you [birth name]?” “No, my name is Jess.”
      “But I liked [birth name]!” “Hm. I didn’t.”

      If it comes up again, keep reiterating: My name is Andrea. “Andi?” My name is Andrea. Etc. You have a right to be called by the name you choose!

      1. Lissa*

        ugh ugh ugh “But I liked [birth name] is the bane of my existence.” I have a long really elaborate name that honestly I’d probably love if it wasn’t mine, but I was teased about it SO much growing up that the associations are bad, so I go by a nickname (which is the first part of my name, not even very unusual.) The number of people who find out my full name and decide to start calling me that because “it’s so pretty” … arrrrgh. screams.

    10. Eye of Sauron*

      Ubboy.. I have a name that people like to shorten. Here’s my typical response either verbal or IM/Email.

      Wakeen: Sam, can I get those TPS reports
      Samantha: Samantha please… sure will send them right over
      A week later
      Wakeen: Hey Sam… Great job on the Ferguson account
      Samantha: It’s Samantha

      If the exchange happens verbally there is usually a ‘tone’ the second time I have to remind someone. (although I’ve been told that even via IM there’s a tone). If it happens a 3rd time I just don’t respond. Very few people have ever made it to the 3rd time.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I might not have answered, that would depend on other things, though.

      Definitely, if you want to be called Andrea then that is that. It’s your name.

      The problem here is that he crossed two boundaries. Your status was busy and he ignored that. Then it appears that he decides when you are busy that is a good time to figure out what your name is and he picks a nickname.

      There are times (not every time) I am in a meeting and the problem had better be a fire or don’t interrupt.

      I see a person here who may or may not have respect for other people’s time. I could be wrong, one instance does not “prove” anything. Just watch and see if you see similar lack of regard.

    12. nep*

      The way you did it is perfect in my view.
      I like just ‘Andrea’ as opposed to ‘I prefer Andrea.’ It’s firmer and you’re saying ‘I am Andrea’; the other sort of sounds like, ‘If you don’t mind, if you’re OK with it, I’d rather be called Andrea.’

  21. WorkFriend*

    I have a pretty common situation but nothing I found could directly advise me on what exactly to do. I have a coworker who I think wants to be friends with me more than I want to be friends with her. Until now, I’ve been fine managing boundaries and coming up with excuses on being busy (work full time, part time graduate school, and upcoming bridesmaid!) that I can’t spend as much time with her as she would like (although we will make plans for brunch or a museum, but seldom like 1/few months). She moved here from a new city a few months ago and frequently talks about how she doesn’t have friends and how people/our other coworkers don’t include her when they hang out with each other. This month I think I’ve been a bit more forward/curt and it’s created a somewhat awkward situation. I had a birthday celebration with my friends and didn’t invite her. When she asked what I was doing that weekend I was intentionally vague, lied and said I didn’t know and when she asked again, said my friends were planning something for my birthday, however the celebrations and Facebook aftermath were clear that I planned it. She immediately asked me how it was the next day via text and I was feeling bad so I apologized and stated I felt I mishandled it by being vague but I don’t like mixing work and friends especially when there is alcohol involved, I know I wouldn’t be able to relax and let loose. She replied nicely and then stated at times she wonders why she hasn’t been included when I’ve made plans with my friends but that she appreciated the honesty and acknowledged that she does talk a lot about not being included and it’s not my problem.

    This completely turned me off and it became turning point in how I’ve been interacting with her. There are a few situations that I just cannot stand and can’t control my reaction. She’s described her poop to me at work ( I just listened) which really crossed the line, I wish I could have thought something to say then. Most recently she came up to me to ask my Easter plans and then was very inquisitive on my family and whether or not I have grandparents still living. I gave a look and said something flustered that I didn’t realize I was going to be questioned on my grandparents and she said what? We’ve never discussed parents before (the issue was that I thought she was asking me a work question and wasn’t really expecting an interrogation). I think since the whole birthday thing I’ve just been weirded out. We work at a University and she tried to set me up with a student, and in the course of a week asked me when we are celebrating our birthdays, and having a movie night. I think I said not anytime soon and later she told me I seemed on edge, I told her it stresses me out when she asks me to do things because I look at my calendar and realize I don’t know when I am going to get all my schoolwork done, I am also a bridesmaid in a friend’s wedding in April so I just don’t have the time. I think things are evolving but does anyone have any language they use to enforce boundaries, distance themselves, or when someone brings up an inappropriate topic like setting up with a student or poop? I’ve been upfront that I just don’t like mixing work with my personal life but will make the occasional plan with her because she kept asking, I really believe I have brought up that I like to keep things separate, but perhaps not enough. I liked her enough as a work friend but this is just getting to be too much. Looking for any language that would help me in the moment! Thanks all!

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I think it’s okay to pull back. Nobody’s doing anything “wrong,” here IMO, you just don’t want the closeness with her that she’s looking for. Pulling back will give her space to find people who *do* want to hang out. People who just moved into town are at max neediness, but it usually tails off. Just be polite but stick to business.

      1. LilySparrow*

        I think trying to set her up with a student was pretty wrong. Maybe not technically unethical, depending on their positions, but certainly inappropriate to be pushing unwanted dates on a co-worker.

    2. Amtelope*

      I think it woud be useful to draw some clearer lines between work socializing and personal socializing. If everyone in the office is getting lunch or drinks after work, or you are planning an outing for most of the people in the office, you should invite her. It’s not a great look when most of the office gets together to do something and doesn’t invite one person.

      But if you’re doing something with your personal friends, stop lying and apologizing for not inviting her. If she fishes for an invitation or asks why she wasn’t included, a good script is “Oh, this isn’t a work get-together, this is something I’m doing with my friends outside work.” You can also turn down all her non-work-related invitations. Let’s have brunch! “Thanks, but count me out.” When can you have a movie night? “Thanks, but I’m not up for hanging out after work most of the time, so don’t plan on me.” It does not sound like this person is good at taking hints, so stop hinting and start being more direct.

      And try to shut down inappropriate or non-work-related topics in the moment. “Wow, TMI, don’t tell me about your poop.” “Wow, dating a student would be really inappropriate, why would you think I’d do that?” “Hey, I can’t chat any more about my family right now, I’m working.” Etc.

      1. WorkFriend*

        Thanks for taking the time to answer on each component, I really appreciate it! Great phrasing and am hoping to utilize it! Most of the time she finds out people are hanging out 1:1 and then complains to me about how they didn’t ask her when they know shes new here and looking for friends. It just seems like irrational expectations or she’s looking to work for her social life.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          It seems that yes, she’s looking to work for her social life poor thing. Probably because she’s new to the area, and well, we all spend a lot of time at work. Have a little compassion, but definitely set boundaries!

      2. Natalie*

        As part of drawing those clearer lines, I would either unfriend her on Facebook or adjust your settings so she can’t see anything you post. If you’re trying to get some space from someone, having them up in your life via social media is the opposite of what you need.

        1. Jules the Third*

          +100 – tell her you have been getting less and less comfortable with mixing work and social, so you’re purging work people from FB. But be consistent – take everyone from work off FB.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Okay first of all, Stop. Friending. Coworkers. On. Facebook. If they can’t see your page, they won’t know what you’re doing.

      Second, I think you’re going to have to be straightforward with her. It’s possible to do it politely. “Jane, I’m sorry, but I would rather keep my work life and personal life separate as much as possible. I have so much going on with schoolwork and other things that it’s the only way I can get everything done. My plate is too full right now to add anything more.”

      You could also suggest some meetups she might be interested in so she can meet more people–if she’s new in town, she might not be aware of them. You don’t have to create a whole roster for her, just give her a few suggestions. “You mentioned you like X; did you know City has an X group? It should be fun and I’m sure there are loads of cool people there.” Of course you’re not obligated to do this.

      If you still like her and want to be friendly at work, maybe you can have lunch once in a while. But don’t feel too badly about cutting off the personal time.

      1. WorkFriend*

        Regarding Facebook, I knowww (facepalm)! I generally was put off but accepted anyway, and later came friend requests from my boss, other coworkers, and a Director in different dept. I’m pretty low on the totem pole so the power dynamic is there too. It seems like A Thing here, but something I had the opportunity to opt out of and didn’t. I’ve thought about defriending them all and explaining (if asked) I have a LOT of stuff on there (I got facebook in highschool!) and it’s uncomfortable to have everyone have access to my high school photos etc. However, I feel weird about that now I’m friends with my boss. Still deciding what to do about that (a blanket unfriending v. leaving as is.) I’ve looked into creating a list that excludes people from seeing certain posts and it doesn’t seem like that’s a thing anymore. I did that in college with my family and my party pictures. I will be job searching soon (graduating) and will definitely not be accepting coworkers friend requests in the future.

        I really like the my plate is too full phrasing! Much more diplomatic then basically telling her she stresses me out. Thank you!

        1. Alli525*

          You should definitely not be friends with your BOSS on Facebook! Just unfriend them – it really will be okay. I’m friends with my coworkers on Instagram, which is way less personal, so you could try doing that and saying (if anyone asks) you’re reshuffling your social media strategy.

          1. Triplestep*

            I was on a team where the boss actually initiated the FB friend requests to the rest of the team – her peers, her direct reports, everyone. Those kinds of people absolutely notice un-friending. IMO, the best thing to do in that situation is to accept, and then put them on a list that doesn’t see anything. If it comes up in conversation at work, you just say “Oh, I’m just not very active on Facebook”. But then you have not alienated anyone, and if they talk about something they saw on FB, you can go check it out if you want to.

            I think the story arc from “Friends” where Rachel takes up smoking so she can hang out with her boss and the boss’s closest allies on smoke breaks is a good analogy here. Things that are not related to work should not impact our work relationships, but they do.

        2. Natalie*

          No, you can definitely restrict the audience for your posts! I filter nearly everything from my inlaws. The exact instructions have changed (it’s not a list anymore) but if you google around you should be able to find it

          1. Natalie*

            But seriously, just unfriend them. It’s unlikely they’ll even notice, but if they do it will be weird for about 5 minutes.

            2. Akcipitrokulo*

              Yep – if it won’t cause drama, unfriend, but if you’re worried that it might cause badness in office, (not all bosses are reasonable!) then set up a “work-free” filter and put everything on it.

        3. atgo*

          If you think unfriending will create too much of a headache at work, you could also severely restrict any of their visibility into your content. Add them all to a “list” and then make it so that they either can’t see much or exclude that list from any future content you post.

          If you get asked about it, you could either be honest or tell them that you’ve backed off/removed content because of the data privacy issues that are all over the news right now. The controversy may be well timed to support you in this.

        4. Elizabeth West*

          You’re welcome! And it’s fine to unfriend–if anyone says anything, just tell them you feel more comfortable keeping personal and work stuff separate, especially after the Facebook Cambridge Analytica mess (and maybe even that you’re not using it as much now).

          Zuckerberg makes a convenient fall guy. ;)

      2. Alli525*

        ALL of this. I had a disastrous incident at my first job after FB-friending a coworker who I later found out hated me (and tried to use my innocuous posts to get me fired). After that I never friended anyone until we were outside-of-work friends for at least a couple months.

        Even in higher ed, it’s perfectly fine to be clear about keeping work and personal lives separate. Your wording is great here.

          1. Windchime*

            This is how I do it now, too. I got way too enmeshed in my previous job and it turned out badly. So now I am Facebook friends with exactly zero of my coworkers at my new job. They are lovely people and I consider a few of them to be friends, but I am not mixing it up on Facebook with them.

            1. Alli525*

              Same. I met one of my best friends at work (and we friended each other almost immediately), but we were 24 when we met, so it made sense. Now my relationships with my coworkers are pretty different, because we’re in our 30s, aka the “not really making friends anymore” stage of our lives (sigh).

    4. epi*

      I would pull way back and see how she reacts. It sounds like you have been really nice to this person and need to listen to that turned off feeling. End these weird conversations by saying you need to get back to work. Someone who is really your friend won’t mess with your job. Don’t make it sound like you’re only declining invitations because you have plans, don’t give this person details about your social life since they aren’t part of it, and don’t act guilty or lie. When you do that, you send the message that she was right to expect an invitation and you did something wrong. I would not accept any invitations for a while, until you feel like you actually want to again. If you think about it, it’s actually not that kind to let someone spend time on you and confide in you if you are resenting them the whole time. So don’t get stuck thinking you have to have relationships you don’t enjoy just to be “nice”.

      I don’t want to scare you, but I had a work friend like this and eventually had to get HR involved to get him to leave me alone. He was pushing hard for outside of work friend stuff, I kept saying no, and one day I realized I no longer looked forward to our work friend interactions either. So I started canceling them. At the time I just planned on taking a break and trying to scale back until I found the level at which I enjoyed his company. But he freaked out! He started coming by my desk *more*, pushing me to reschedule our outings, leaving me notes saying he just wanted to be friends, and not leaving when I said I had work to do. He totally ruined what could have been a nice work acquaintanceship and came off as a huge creep. It can be really hard to tell if you’re dealing with someone nice who is just clueless/lonely or someone you really want to get away from. Pulling back gave me two important pieces of information in that regard: yes, he could tell I wanted to spend less time together; no, he did not plan to respect my boundaries.

    5. valentine*

      Unless her acknowledgement of the situation was Eeyore-like, I don’t understand why you were turned off. It was a great opportunity for a resetting. It’s never too late to draw and keep boundaries, though. A few phrases should work, if you stick to them. If you’re an empath/enmeshed/used to taking on others’ feelings, this may feel like death, but the more you stick, the freer you’ll feel and, even if she keeps pushing, she’ll eventually race you to saying the phrases. For nonwork socializing: “Let’s not cross the streams.” No one expects the Spanish Inquisition: “Let’s stick to work topics.” TMI/student setup: “That’s inappropriate.” Mix and match. This broken-recording bottom-lining works and you can do this and block her on social media even if you’re friends with other colleagues, as long as she’s not the only one you’re not including.

      1. Workfriend*

        I think the fact that she stated she has wondered why she hasn’t been included when I have plans with my friends made my antenna go up and just made me think wow. Also that she was so quick to text about how the celebrations were. She’s also never met any of my friends, I don’t talk about them other then the fact I’m seeing them, or was with them. I also don’t get to see my friends as much as I would like due to all my commitments and I’m certainly not about to have her tag along the times I do get to see them.

        A lot of the examples I mentioned are just the tip of the iceberg. When she was using the airport in a nearby state where my parents live she asked if she could come home with me to stay the weekend to be closer to the airport (I wasn’t going to my parents that weekend) I said no. She also asked if she can come to my graduation (I said if you want…) and if she’ll get to meet my family. She just digs and digs and it’s just gotten to be too much/overbearing. I also sit in an open area so it’s fairly easy for her to just come up and interrupt me. I appreciate the phrasings and confirmation that it’s OK to scale back and even push back and stick to No.

        I also realized I misspoke earlier, she didn’t start a few months a go, it’s been over a year. I was just thinking of the month she started and didn’t count the year in addition. So she isn’t really that new to town anymore.

        1. Lance*

          Yeah… that’s too much. That’s way too much. It’s one thing to want to be included, but trying to insert herself into all of these things means she wouldn’t be anyone I’d want any sort of personal relationship with.

    6. Bea*

      I have an old boss on my facebook, I only hide posts about politics because she doesn’t know I’m a liberal:X otherwise it’s created no problems for us.

      You really just need to be blunt now that she’s pushing so hard and not taking hints.

      I only talk about bowel movements with my close friend who does the same. I can’t believe she’s that over the top. I don’t care that she’s new, I moved to town knowing my partner and a casual friend thankfully…and haven’t been pushing anyone for engagement. It’s a university you have to have clubs or meetups there. The fact she tried to hook you up with a student shows she’s not a bright bulb who knows boundaries.

    7. LilySparrow*

      Honestly, I think you’re over-explaining and acting guilty for no reason. If you keep hedging and soft-no’ing her, she’s going to keep thinking you really do want to be her BFF, you just don’t have the time. She’s not getting it.

      That doesn’t make her a bad person. It just makes her a literal-minded person.

      She also sounds pretty pushy and nosy. And the setup thing? Wow, no. That is both inappropriate and a very bad judgment call.

      There’s nothing rude or mean about not wanting to be personal friends with someone, even if you’re fine being friendly around the office. The key to fending off this type of overbearing friendliness is “No” plus a subject change. You need to be more assertive in the conversation, so you don’t always feel like you need to make excuses.

      What are you doing for Easter: “Family stuff. How about you?” Then when she tells you, say, “Sounds nice, enjoy it!” (Or whatever is appropriate to her answer) and walk away.

      When are we having movie night: “Oh, no thanks.” A friendlier subject change would be to recommend she check out a particular local theater “when you go.” A chillier subject change would be to a strictly work topic.

      Then there are things you’re better off just shutting down.

      Poop talk: “Eww, TMI. I don’t want to hear that. I’ll catch you later.”

      Setups: “That was inappropriate and I don’t appreciate it. Please don’t do that again.”

      She is going to have some awkward and not-fun feelings, and be aware that you don’t want to be her friend. But if she’s a reasonable person, these type of remaks should not undermine your ability to work together pleasantly.

      After all, right now she is making things awkward and unpleasant for you. There is no course of action that will really make her happy except agreeing to be her BFF.

      So, as Captain Awkward says, you might as well return her package of awkwardness to sender and let her be the one to deal with it.

    8. London Calling*

      *She’s described her poop to me at work*

      Er right. OK. Sorry, I don’t have any help for you on this but WHAT?

  22. Lil Fidget*

    Jealousy of friends’ careers in this weeks’ letter: additional thoughts on this?

    Here’s mine: I have a hard time with my friends who work from home, because I desperately want that perk myself and have not been able to get it. My job is very 8-5, butts in seats, no exceptions. But I have many friends who work from home full-time, or any day they desire, or are considering offers in which that’s a perk. I’m so jealous! The worst is my friend who is from-home full time, who makes a TON more money than I do (which I realize is my own hangup). It’s hard for me to bite my tongue when she complains that other people don’t think she “really” works – because I see how much more freedom she has than me. In the same breath that my friend complains that people don’t think she really works, she will note that she got a few loads of laundry done and made dinner, or ran a quick grocery run, or is waiting for the repairman – all things that completely wreck my day, which are easily handled from home.

    On the other hand, I know she’s often bored at her job and I wouldn’t really want to do the kind of technical work she does, even if I had the skills and expereince to do it. So I just keep biting my tongue sigh.

    Anyone else got a strategy?

    1. Badmin*

      I have a friend who worked from home and I think she found it quite lonely. She doesn’t anymore and this was a few years ago but I remember her saying that she wishes she could go into an office and be around people and it would help with the actual structure/separation of working/homelife. I am also someone who needs structure/separation, I don’t think I would do particularly well with working at home, unless it was occasional. I think accountability is also a thing (it would definitely be for me!)

      1. Jen RO*

        I worked from home for a couple of years and I wouldn’t do it again. My schedule was a mess and, even as an introvert, I was SO lonely. I love being in an office – though I do have quite a lot of flexibility in terms of schedule. I am sure that “butt in seat 8-5” would be worse.

        1. Wendy Darling*

          I’m an introvert too and I have the same problem. I can go weeks without face to face speaking with anyone except my boyfriend and some baristas if I’m not careful. Turns out being forced to leave the house 5 days a week and talk to some humans I don’t live with or buy coffee from was actually good for me.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          I hate butt-in-seat but I also hate being stuck at home alone. If I got a remote job, I’d hope it paid enough to afford co-working space (yes we do have that even here in the middle of fooking nowhere! :D) so I could at least get out of the house.

      2. LDP*

        My aunt works from home, and while she’s never said anything about lack of structure, from the outside looking in it looks like a total mess to me. She likes that she can technically do her work from literally anywhere, so she can travel. But, I know there are nights when it’ll be 10 p.m. and she hasn’t gotten up from her desk. Also, when she’s having to meet with clients she has to frantically search for coffee shops that aren’t too far away and aren’t too loud, since she doesn’t really want people coming into her guest bedroom to talk business.
        I know this may just be her particular company, but I also know that often she’s had to drop everything to fly to where her boss lives for in person meetings, because no one in the entire company lives in the same area. That sounds like an absolute nightmare to me!

      3. Wendy Darling*

        I work from home sort of by choice — I could work from the office but the commute is 60+ minutes each way by bus, I get motion sick, and the rest of my team is remote so I wouldn’t be with my team even if I was in the office.

        It’s definitely got downsides though. It’s hard to keep things from disrupting my work day. If my partner takes a day off my day is pretty much wrecked because my workspace is our living room (we don’t have anywhere to put my stuff). It can get super lonely and sometimes it’s hard for me to transition to not-working. My parents had a hard time figuring out I was working and tended to try to barge in for a really long time and then got upset when I told them they couldn’t do that. We have houseguests several weeks a year and I’m not looking forward to seeing how THAT’S going to work (it’s probably going to work via me sucking up the bad commute and going to the office).

        The flexibility of my schedule is AMAZING though, which is especially helpful because this month has been a horrorshow health-wise. The downside to the schedule flexibility? I have at least one meeting a week outside normal work hours so we can meet with overseas clients. 9pm meetings are rubbish. Almost as rubbish as 6am meetings.

        I guess my point is everything has advantages and disadvantages.

    2. Canadian Teapots*

      Following on from Badmin, I know for myself, when I do find a full-time job, I’d definitely prefer going to a physically separate workplace, as that reinforces the structured mentality of this-is-a-job-and-I-am-doing-one.

    3. Emmie*

      Accept that this is your reality, or find a job that offers this flexibility. I do not mean this to be harsh. I WFH full-time. I love my job and appreciate the perk. Yet, there are serious downfalls. I do not have schedule flexibility. My butt is in my seat for the traditional work schedule. I keep working later because it is hard to turn work off. I respond nearly immediately to work calls, emails, or instant messages because I want people to know I am approachable, working, and helpful. I feel horrible calling off sick. It is very lonely. A WFH has to be more proactive building non-work friends, and having a social life. People get upset with me when I cannot pick their kids up from school. My salon asks me to come in early for appointments and I cannot. People often brag about the good parts of their life, and do not talk about the negative. Tell your friends that you cannot hear about this. Walk out of work tonight. Close the door. Relax on your commute home. Savor that feeling. WFH people do not get that.

      1. Overeducated*

        I agree that people mostly talk about the good parts and don’t stress the down sides. So my strategy is to do that myself – think about how I would talk about my job if I were a person who bragged on Facebook or just wanted to present the bright side, and try to convince myself that’s true. For instance, in my current job I don’t get to do exciting field work in exotic places any more, and I get jealous of people who do. But I try to remember that my job description *sounds* really important (ha! I’m being honest here….), I get to see my kid every night, and I get to keep a pulse on stuff going on nationally, so it’s still kinda cool.

      2. Woah*

        Who on Earth thinks you should be picking their kids up from school for them when you’re working?

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          I’m pretty sure that if I had been working on my PhD in my hometown my sister would have asked me to do this, because I wasn’t “really” working and I could take time out whenever I wanted to, in theory.

        2. Emmie*

          Thanks, Woah! Family. They get delayed at work. Their jobs are one in which they must respond to emergencies, but the emergencies happen once every three months.

          1. Artemesia*

            Really important to establish boundaries with family who assume you are available for emergencies and loosely define them. People with on call jobs should have plans for coping when they are on call. If you are their plan you need to make it clear you aren’t. (I suppose we are all ‘on call’ if a relative is rushed to the hospital — but a relative having a work demand is something else and something they and their spouse need to have a plan B for).

    4. Kate*

      It really is just a grass is always greener situation I think. I work from home pretty much full time, but when I took my current role, I worked at contract sites 2 days a week, so I ended up moving away from all my friends to be closer to this contract site (I live in a high traffic area, so an hour on the weekend can turn into 2 or 3 during the week). Like Badmin mentioned, it’s actually really lonely. Even when I do have to go into a contract site, since we all mostly work from home, I never know if my colleagues will be there. Days when I’m struggling with a task, I don’t really have anyone that I can just bounce an idea off of real quick or just the casual interactions that you get working in an office. And on days I’m feeling particularly unfocused, I end up working till 11 o’clock at night trying to make up for time I felt I was unproductive. So, it actually irks me when people say, “Oh, it must be so great working from home!” Because it’s not.

      But, to your point, I also think about working in an office full-time again and having to get there by 8 or 9 looking all polished and ready to go or having people pop into to talk about work issues when you just want to finish your coffee first, and I don’t want that either. So I agreed with Alison’s suggestion of just thinking about the pros and the cons and is that really what you would rather want? Maybe it is. I think my colleagues love working from home full-time, but it’s not for everyone.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      I have a friend with a very unusual career and she is living my dream in several ways. Some things she gets to do through her work:

      –Actually do creative work she loves and make a living at it
      –Live somewhere awesome (where she met a charming guy and got married, arrrgghh)
      –Go to premieres (because of her professional affiliations)
      –Meet film stars I would murder puppies* to be in the presence of**
      –Get tons of perks

      Meanwhile, I’m trapped here without even a crap job and no one cares that I exist. But here’s the thing–jealousy is about ME, not her. I hate it. It sucks, it’s painful, and it isn’t productive in any way. The best I can do is look at the things she has that I want and construct a plan to get them. I can see her not as a source of pain and envy but as an inspiration. After all, we both came from the same exact place, and even though she has had advantages I have not, if she can succeed, so can I. It’s not too late, either–James Ivory was recently the oldest person to win an Oscar ever, at 89 (best adapted screenplay, Call Me by Your Name).***

      She also has to deal with things I don’t have to (yet), like online haters, the weirdness of being a public figure, and massive deadlines. Because she’s a lovely person, I know I could go to her and ask “Hey how do you handle X,” and she would gladly advise me. I love her and I’m happy for her, and that’s the part I try to concentrate on.

      As Alison has said many times, there is no such thing as a dream job. I could get everything I want right now and I would still have to do stuff I dislike and probably take on some new stressors. So when your friend complains, think of it like “This is informative; I thought working from home all the time would be great but there are things I didn’t consider.” If you still want that despite the not-so-great parts (as I do), then make a plan to get there. What you’re learning from her will help you make a more informed choice. :)

      *no not really!!!!
      **okay but she met Benedict Cumberbatch omg
      ***well I’d rather not wait that long but you get my drift

      2. valentine*

        Elizabeth, can she help you get CA housesitting gigs or a string of guestrooms while you look for a full-time job?

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Err no, because she’s actually in London.

          I did get to see her this summer–her and her hubs came to visit her family and they had a barbecue and she invited me. :)

    6. Jules the Third*

      All the websites push ‘gratitude’ as a huge transformative thing, maybe try some gratitude exercises?
      – Write down at least three things that you really like about your job, that make you happy about it (it’s stable, or you can leave it at work, or the pay lets you do x, y, z)
      – Think about one of those things each day on your way to work, for just a minute or two.
      – Think about one of those things when someone talks about their WFH.

      If I understand it right, the small serotonin rush from the gratitude is effective and self-reinforcing, and more effective than the ‘sour grapes’ option of trying to convince yourself that WFH isn’t great.

      Though it’s true, WFH means it’s harder to turn it off.

    7. MissDisplaced*

      Well, I mean it’s hard to compare jobs when people have very different careers! I know a lot of coder/programmer types and I would hate that kind of work even though they have a lot of freedom and make good salary.
      I think here you have to make this about YOU and not your friends. If you’re jealous of the money, you have to evaluate what kind of job you can get that pays better. Same with the work at home perks. And then begin looking for a BETTER job that might secure one or the other (or both). They do exist. I currently have a job with very liberal work-at-home policies, but I still go into the office most days. The flexibility is nice to have.

    8. Keep Your Eyes On The Prize*

      My friend has worked from home for almost 20 years even before it was a Thing (she’s an editor/writer). Once a week she goes into the office. She loves it but had to draw a hard line in the sand in terms of work/play life. People dropping by during the day, comments on how she didn’t have a “real” job etc. It is lonely but because the job requires long periods of quiet concentration, working from home was ideal.

    9. nonymous*

      In addition to the loneliness/isolation aspect, please also understand that the flexibility of WFH is a double edged sword. I have a job with that lovely flexibility of taking time off mid-day to let the contractor in or run my Mom to an appointment or deal with the doggos.

      But that means I’m responsible for those tasks, because obviously my spouse can’t do personal stuff while he’s commuting or on the phone with a client, so I have less time to decompress. When I used to be in a cube farm, when I finished a meeting I could take a walk around the building and get some fresh air. At home when I finish a meeting I’m more likely to run a load of laundry or take trash out to the curb – neither of which refresh me for the rest of my work day. Sometimes it’s nice to leave the clutter of personal life and be able to focus on work in a place that someone else keeps clean!

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I have an annoying answer, please remember this is what I tell MYSELF!

      Jealousy is a nasty little reminder that we are not exactly where we want to be in life. If it’s not a friend’s job, then it’s a friend’s inground swimming pool, or a trip to Europe. There’s usually something that gives us a little pang now and again.

      Let it sharpen you. Breathe and say to yourself, “What I am willing to do to get myself in a better spot?” Feel free to copy other people’s stepping stones, if you are looking for a how-to guide and incrementally move yourself over to a different spot.

      Let those pangs remind you to go get what YOU want in life. The odd thing is once we sit down and really think, “What do I want?” we can find something totally different than the thing that made us jealous. And that is okay. The main point is to keep growing ourselves, not to stagnate. So whatever you come up with will probably be just the right thing for YOU.

  23. Librarian Interview*

    I have an on-campus interview for a Librarian position on Monday. I graduate with my MLIS 6 years ago, but haven’t worked a library since then. I’m so nervous but excited! I’ve already done a lot of prep but I would still be grateful if any Librarians in the comments could chime in with interview tips or common questions. It’s in the medical library field.

    1. Farther and Happier*

      Congrats on your interview and good luck! Ask questions about their most frequently used databases. Ask if they do workshops or trainings with them.

    2. dear liza dear liza*

      Congratulations on your interview! My biggest advice:

      1. All day interviews can be exhausting, and your brain may get fried. Come prepared with lots of questions to ask not just in meetings, but at meals/coffee etc. Your ability to make small talk is part of ‘fit.’

      2. You’ll probably be asked why you want this job/why you are qualified. The best responses I’ve heard include “I want this job because of X, in this library because of Y.” Unlike most workplaces, I’ve found libraries like when you have a personal connection and desire to a region, so it’s okay to also mention this in the why- but it should be a corollary to explaining your desire for THIS job at THIS institution.

        1. Wendy Darling*

          If they’re decent humans they’ll water and feed you but you can’t count on it. I go to long interviews with a bottle of water and a bag of almonds in my handbag just in case. One company scheduled me for a 6-hour interview over lunch with no break and I was shaking by the end even WITH my almonds.

    3. Dorothy Zbornak*

      Remember to stay hydrated! I’m always so nervous the day of an interview that I can’t even think about food, and I end up not drinking enough water either, so interview pressure + dehydration = banging headache by the end of the day.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I always end up drinking so much to keep my mouth from getting dry that I have to take a ton of bathroom breaks. Opposite problem. :( (I still get the headache though.)

    4. SCAnonibrarian*

      I’m in public libraries and a manager, so I have no reality-based advice, just sending good librarian vibes!

      Maybe ask if there are any specialties or areas of practice that this particular medical library focuses on?

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      This will be tiring and day long interviews suck. They suck for you and for the people interviewing. Drink lots of water. Eat a decent breakfast and wear shoes you can walk around in. You will get a tour.

      Also bring questions to ask. Nearly every meeting people will say, “Do you have any questions?” and you want to have some. The best question I’ve heard and one I use is: What are the goals for this position in the first year and how will success at those goals be measured?

      1. Librarian Interview*

        Thank you! I switched my shoes from heels to flats after your comment. I have about four different 1:1 interviews and a group interview.

    6. chickadee*

      Do you have to give a presentation/job talk? If so, make sure you practice, because nerves will likely get the better of you on that day unless you’re a public speaking whiz. Get someone to listen to it and ask questions. We just hired someone and the final choice basically came down to who could present and ask questions the best.

      1. Librarian Interview*

        This is what I’m worried about the most because I have a fear of public speaking. I am practicing tonight in front of friends and then again on Saturday/Sunday before the interview. Thank you!

  24. BusyBee*

    Curious how others would deal with a situation I had earlier this week. I work on a team of three with two other women, Jane and Sarah. We have a brand new boss, Dan. Both Jane and Sarah are skilled at their jobs and we enjoy working together. Jane, however, can be a little mean sometimes, making rude comments and belittling other people. Generally, Sarah and I ignore it when she’s in a mood and Jane eventually gets over it.

    This week, a small project Sarah was working on came under fire for some minor errors. They were things she would usually catch, but not glaring mistakes and not a high visibility project. Somehow Jane got looped in by Dan but Sarah did not. Jane was messaging Dan about the errors, some of which were kind of humorous, and the two of them were laughing and poking fun. Jane was also sending screenshots of the convo with Dan to Sarah and I, saying how funny it was.

    Jane marked up the errors within a document, but included mocking language in her feedback. Sarah, being a contentious employee, was really upset by the entire incident, but was not approached by Dan to find out what happened or asked to fix the work.

    Though I was on the periphery of all of this, it made me uncomfortable that Dan would egg Jane on like that. It hurts the unity of our team. I also felt uncomfortable that nobody had Sarah’s back- I have found her to be a strong performer, and the mistakes were very out of character for her, so it was odd to me that nobody approached her directly to get the whole story. Should I say something to Dan? The entire incident has made me lose faith and trust in him as a manager.

    1. Luna*

      That is 100% inappropriate of Dan. It is never okay for a boss to be talking about one of his employees to the other employees in the group.

      I don’t have good advice on what to say to Dan now; maybe start by talking with Sarah to let her know that you do have her back and she was right to be upset? I think Sarah should be the one to talk to Dan. But if Dan and Jane do this again you should say something in the moment to cut it off.

    2. Marthooh*

      It sounds like maybe Dan was trying to be chummy with Jane about this? He may not realize that poking fun at minor mistakes is not so humorous when the boss is doing it.

      But Sarah should be the one to bring it up.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Since Jane sent the screenshots to you, I think that you can mention to Dan that whole scene was a little awkward. “I know that Sarah takes her job seriously. I did not want her to see me laughing at her expense. If we could avoid doing this again, it would probably be good.”

      OTH, you can say, “I saw the screenshots between you and Jane. I just wanted to let you know that if I make a mistake, I would prefer being told directly and in person.”

  25. MM*

    Looking for a recommendation for a career counselor – I’m in the New York metro area but could also work with someone virtually, and I’m hoping for someone who understand the nonprofit world as that’s where all my experience has been.

    I’m specifically looking for someone who can take me by the hand and help me figure out what to do with my career – not someone who just wants to show me how to rewrite my resume and cover letter (I’ve already paid someone for that) or who’s going to give me an aptitude test or who has their own crackpot theories about how to get a job. I really need help in figuring out how to move forward based on my previous experience and background.

    Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

    2. DBGNY*

      MM,

      Can you give a little more information about what you’re doing in NPOs? I’m also in the NPOs in NYC and would love to help if you can.

  26. D.W.*

    Another person has resigned this week. That’s 12 since February.

    I really want to leave as well.

    1. JobinPolitics*

      D.W., my sympathies for the quick succession of resignations. Please take care of yourself this weekend and follow Alison’s wonderful advice to find another job. Good luck!

    2. Bea*

      Do you work for my evil former boss? Well even he didn’t scare us off that fast but wow. I hope you get out soon. My friend is still stuck at the hellhole and it hurts my heart.

  27. Mananana*

    Alison’s question earlier this week about the weirdest things we’d seen on a resume reminded me of a conversation I had with my husband. He asked what I thought about putting MENSA membership on a resume. I wasn’t a fan, but am curious what others think. Would a hiring manager think “Wow… she’s smart!” or “Wow…. she’s braggy!” Or something else altogether?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      The only people I know who have mentioned Mensa have also been a bit pretentious, so I feel like I would have to fight a biased opinion on it. It’s one of those things that I would maybe keep in my back pocket for an interview (that’s a stretch even) or like “Tell us something interesting”, not as resume fodder.

      1. KG*

        Same. I’ve seen it a couple times on resumes, but only from people who seemed to put too much importance on it. And were often not a great fit, skills- and experience-wise, for the job in general.

      1. Mananana*

        Thank you, fposte! I didn’t even think to search the archives; should’ve known that someone has asked this before.

    3. Abelard*

      I’d be more on the “Wow…she’s braggy” side of the response if I saw that. Unless for some reason the job lists MENSA membership as a requirement (I can’t imagine this happening) I’d leave it off.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Definitely don’t. It would be like putting IQ on your resume. Employers care about what you’ve actually achieved, not about what a test says your potential to achieve might be. And it’ll look really odd and out of touch.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I didn’t get round to reading all of the post about strange things on resumes (internet connection keeps going on strike) however I have encountered people who have received honours and include them in their CV, or worse still, sign all their emails with them.

        For example Jane Smith MBE or Fred Bloggs OBE

        Apart from the specifics of MBEs and OBEs being UK honours, it always seems a bit show-offy.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          While *so* not a fan of the honours system… if it’s in the signature part of the email, I wouldn’t look askance at it. It’s like “Fred Bloggs, MSCi(Hon)” type of thing – in the right context, it’s fine.

          Mind you, something like

          Hi,

          Would you look at X for me?

          Fred Bloggs OBE

          would be weird as hell, but if it’s an auto-generated like this, meh…

          Hi,

          Would you look at X for me?

          Fred

          Fred Bloggs OBE
          Teapots Inc
          Tel: 12312323

      2. Mananana*

        I just read through the comments in the article fposte linked to — holy hornet’s nest, Batman!! I had NO idea the topic was so rage-inducing to some. There was such vitriol in some of the comments; guess the notion of NOT putting Mensa (not MENSA, as I originally used) was quite upsetting.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          The comments used to be … quite different, back in the earlier days of the site. Also, with that post, there was an influx of MENSA defenders a few days after it published.

        2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Yikes! I was rather taken aback by the comments there myself. Hate to say it but the first few that I got through really demonstrated Alison’s point…

      3. As Close As Breakfast*

        I once received a cover letter where the person included their IQ. I still laugh about it sometimes because it really was so odd and out of touch.

    5. Canadian Teapots*

      Isaac Asimov was known to complain he found Mensa members to be pretentious. I’d leave it off.

    6. Thlayli*

      I have a Mensa-level IQ, though I am not a member. I find that when I tell people I have a high IQ the most common response is “well IQ is just one way of measuring intelligence. It doesn’t mean you’re good at anything else”. Which while technically true is pretty rude and defensive.

      So I don’t think it would be a good idea to put it on because it seems to piss people off more than anything else. I don’t usually tell people unless we are having a conversation about IQ.

    7. Book Lover*

      I just don’t see how it is relevant to anything? I would assume that my son has a very high IQ based on everything I have been told but I wouldn’t hire him to take out the garbage, since he’d probably abandon it half way when he got distracted by a shiny object/tv screen.
      Anyway, point being – I think your resume should reflect your background and accomplishments. Presumably that indicates your intelligence and capability.

    8. Undine*

      Mensa does not impress me. To me it signals “smart enough to pass some test, but not smart enough to realize that’s not a big deal.” How smart you are doesn’t matter. It’s what you do with it that’s important.

      1. NoTurnover*

        This. It’s unfair of me, but if someone told me they were a member of Mensa as an “accomplishment,” I would assume they might have an IQ, but aren’t very smart.

    10. Totally Minnie*

      One of the major purposes of the resume-application-interview process is to show a prospective employer what kind of employee you’re likely to be. Intelligence tests are not a great indicator of that. I grew up in gifted programs in school, and I’ve seen first hand that there is a wide array of behaviors associated with high IQ. For every Hermione Granger who uses their high intelligence to work hard and achieve great things, you’ve also got a Zach Morris who uses their intelligence to get away with doing the bare minimum, or worse, a Dr. House who uses their intelligence as an excuse to not treat people well. There’s just no way of knowing what that high IQ score will indicate for this particular person, so including it in a resume doesn’t make sense to me.

    11. The New Wanderer*

      In 20 years of work and grad school, I only know of one coworker, a new senior manager, who was in Mensa. I know because he made it our business to know during several of his interminable team meetings. I’m not sure if he understood that he was bragging to a room full of people, probably 90% of whom were qualified to be members, or that was the reasoning behind it (look guys, I’m just as smart as you!).

    12. neverjaunty*

      “Wow, this is someone so out of touch that they think IQ and Mensa tests are fully merit-based measures of intelligence and competence, and have missed decades of criticism about the biases in these tests and how they are badly misused, especially in some very ugly ways, cf The Bell Curve.”

      TL;DR, leave it off.

    13. Sam Foster*

      My initial reaction: Ewww, gross.

      The only MENSA member’s I’ve ever met have been all hat but no cattle.

    14. Artemesia*

      If I saw it, when I have seen it, it has been a source of merriment on the hiring committee. Mensa is not about being smart; every mensa member I have personally known has been dense and pretentious, the kind of person who at 35, would tell you their SAT score. If I saw it, I would question their judgment and their genuine smarts.

  28. Cute Li'l UFO*

    I started connecting with a handful of friends whose workplaces are hiring for desirable, relevant roles. There was some resistance and stubbornness on my part for sure as I’ve always been a bullheaded “I’m gonna do it!” type of person. With the help of my last boss (startup/digital agency; we’ve known each other since 2014) I found ways to ask for references that didn’t make me feel scummy. I feel more confident now.

    Today I’m taking a friend for coffee and pretty sure I’m meeting with the guy whose job I’m considering applying for. All informal but I am always prepared. I just keep moving on and evaluating what and how I’m doing!

    The weather is great and I finally spent my Christmas Uniqlo gift card on some of the new Marimekko collection. I hope things will move smoother now!

  29. Britt*

    How do you feel about digital interviews? (ie, HireVue – 1 way interviews, not Skype) This is a totally new concept to me, and the more I researched about it, the more uncomfortable I feel. I’ve done a few now, and I kind of hate them. I’m curious what other people think? Also, if anyone is in HR that uses video interviewing for hiring, can you shed some light on the process or what you’re looking for from a candidate?

    1. Abelard*

      My company uses HireVue–I did one 5 years ago for the job I currently have. I’m kind of neutral on it? Didn’t love it, didn’t hate it.

    2. CatCat*

      I wasn’t sure what this was so I googled it. Looks like they give you written questions and expect you to record your responses on video? You don’t get to ask questions (since there’s no person there)?

      Looks like potentially a big time suck to me. Unless I were desperate for a job, I’d probably bow out if this thing would take more than 10-15 mins. And even then, I’d be irritated by it. Are they going to let me send them a bunch of questions about the company that they’ll answer on video as well?

      1. Britt*

        Yep! No person present. They choose the questions, you get 30 sec to prepare and 2-3 min to record your response. Some employers give an option to re-record, some don’t. I’ve done 3 with one employer. The first role seemed promising but budget was cut and the position was removed. 2 more roles opened that I was interested in, and the HM wanted to do the video interview process. I wasn’t selected to move forward for both positions, which I was qualified for both (so I’m left wondering….was I not friendly-seeming enough? Did I smile enough? Did I answer that question right (bc of no feedback on other end) )

        Keep in mind, HireVue uses AI to asses candidates, it’s not just a video. It’s micro analyzing your face, voice, etc. And will spit out a percentage you may be a match…..that’s what really freaks me out a bit!

        1. Irene Adler*

          Really? I never realized this . But it make sense. Why go to the trouble unless there’s additional analyzing -beyond the recorded responses- going on. Think I’ll try a paper cutout for my next HireVue interview. Can’t garner any worse results than what I’ve had with these interviews.

    3. School Psych*

      I have done a few of these video interviews as screening interviews for school districts. I strongly disliked it because I’d already invested a lot of time applying on-line to the district.(Long on-line application with short essay questions, uploading transcripts and recommendations ect.). I felt like it was annoying and unfair to expect me to invest more time in the application process without getting to ask my own questions and see if the role was the right fit on my side. It also seemed like an invasion of privacy. I had to do my video interview from my own home and then the video was going to be shared with multiple people on the hiring committee, but there was no way for me to even see how my video had turned out before submitting it. There was also no indication of how long the videos were kept for, who would see them and how they would be deleted when no longer needed. I didn’t feel like I did as well as I would have in a phone screen and I haven’t moved forward in the process from any video screen I’ve done. Since the video-interview took around 10-15 minutes to complete, I didn’t really see the advantage of doing a screening in this format over doing a short phone-screen. I would greatly prefer a phone-screen as an applicant, so I get the chance to interact with the organization and avoid some of the privacy concerns with video interviews.

      1. Britt*

        Agreed!!! Phone screen feels soo much better! And I also don’t know how long they can keep the videos for??!

        The companies say that using their software eliminates bias in hiring. I so disagree if this is the path interviewing is going to take. What about those who don’t have a great “pretty” spot to record? Signaling their wealth or status? Or those who have a hard time getting a moment to themselves? People who may struggle with the format (not intuitive at all) or who are on the spectrum, but can perform the job well? (goes along with what I mentioned above, using Artificial Intelligence to find a company match) I’m just not on board with so much of it right now unless I find otherwise!

        1. AcademiaNut*

          That only works if you have an unbiased training set, which can be surprisingly hard to manage. Generally, for machine learning you train the system on a hand-assembled set of data, before running it in the wild. If, for example, your training set of great employees is biased towards young white men, your machine learning hiring will be too. Or, in the case of google image search, you end up mixing up black people and gorillas (seriously).

          Machine learning can be a really useful tool, but it can also produce total garbage or even harmful results, if you aren’t really careful with what you’re doing, and sometimes even if you are.

          1. Britt*

            This is what I was thinking! Because HireVue ads are saying what I wrote above — it’s great to learn that it’s not all that easy!

        2. Nieve*

          When I did mine it suggested making my face the focal point, with a plain background, so really not a good method to judge people on their wealth or status. The job I did the video interview for also required high familiarity with technology, so if one couldn’t figure out the format or was not intuitive with technology or new apps they would not have been a good fit for the role. My application involving this was coupled with a phone screen as well, so it seems that obviously there are different benefits to be gained through the video format? For example phone wouldn’t allow the interviewers to see how you present yourself physically (professional appearance was important for this role). Also I don’t think any companies would use this as their sole interview tool (they’d use this as screening, rather than to replace a face-face interview) so I don’t understand why some people are worried that it doesn’t let you ask questions? I got to ask everything I could think of at the final stage once I passed the screenings :)

    4. Jillociraptor*

      My former company did this during any kind of mass hiring. I can see the appeal of it in that circumstance. One of our hiring managers downloaded the responses and listened to them on double time during her commute. It was a pretty good way to give more candidates the opportunity to share more about themselves, at a time when attention was very limited.

      I don’t think that what hiring managers are looking for is any different for an interview like this than for a Skype or phone interview (and in my experience those can at times be about as interactive as if the interviewer weren’t there!). Do you have relevant experience and can you articulate its connection to the job; are you basically normal and able to communicate professionally. Typical stuff.

      One additional thing we were screening for, though it was more of a side benefit than part of an intentional choice to use the software, was how well the candidate could roll with the punches and figure out something new. Our organization had totally antiquated systems and ridiculous bureaucracy, so if you were the kind of person that got flustered by something that didn’t necessarily make a ton of sense on its face, you’d be miserable in the job.

      Personally, I don’t think this is the best way to hire, and I think unless I really wanted the job, I’d probably bow out of a process that included this kind of thing. It was reasonably helpful, but it’s a much more ideal situation to have 1:1 conversations, and space out your hiring so that you can focus on making a good hire for each role.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I’m very happy that I’ve never done one (the recorded kind, as I have done one Skype interview) and I hope I never have to. Initial phone screens with recruiter and/or hiring manager work just fine to see if the candidate is articulate and conversationally skilled, without the visual biases that go into looking at a person staring into a video camera in potentially unfortunate lighting or the weird stilted monologuing in response to canned questions. And gee, if you want clarification on any questions I guess you are out of luck.

      1. Britt*

        EXACTLY! agreed! For the last one I had, I was asked “tell us about your background and key achievements” then the next question was “tell us about yourself and your interests” Sooo… about the role… or my personal life… because I just told you my background..? So I answered in a combination of my interest in the role, and what I enjoy outside of work…not knowing what exactly they wanted because I couldn’t ask!

    6. CopperPenny*

      I have one tonight. I’ve never done one before so any advice or comments would be helpful! The AI bit makes me really nervous.
      I also posted below before I saw this thread.

      1. Britt*

        Finding out about the AI threw me off too, before doing my 3rd one with the same company – all for different roles! I’m naturally a conversationalist and smile a lot. I’ve been told I interview well by my 2 last employers… but this format throws me so off that it’s like all my words drain from my brain. Adding that I didn’t get selected to in-person interview after these last 2 video interviews just really annoyed me!

        So for the company I was interviewing with, they offered the option to re-record. And so on the 2nd time I was asked to do the video interview, I figured out that if I wanted to record a second time, I could actually kind of “pause” and give myself way more time to prepare before the second recording.

        My husband said he thinks the one disadvantage I could have had, is if the company knew it took me double the time to answer (…but not my prob if there’s a loophole..? ha) or, that my answers sounded too rehearsed…

        I feel like the only advice I would give anyone is to “be yourself” :( I’ve read some articles suggesting to exaggerate your facial expressions so AI picks it up, but that just seems silly to me. I really think knowing your resume inside and out is very helpful. Here’s some questions I have been asked!

        – Tell us about your background and experiences
        – Tell us about yourself and your interests
        – Tell us about how you stay organized
        – Tell us about a time that a project required you to work and be available around the clock, how did it go (?????)
        – Tell us why you would be a good fit for this role

        Also, you do get practice questions before you start. But try to level your camera so it’s just slightly looking down. Still dress professional. Sit in an area with good light, or place a lamp a few feet away from your face

        I hope you can get out some jitters before! You really may not find it to be too bad – if you search “under armour” on Glassdoor – there’s a ton of interview reviews you can check out…a lot recently were for their internship program, but it’s a bit helpful! Good luck!

    7. LL Cool G*

      I don’t like them for the reason that the questions I was asked could have been handled by a simple 10-15 minute phone screen. I had a certain amount of time to complete the “digital interview” after receiving a letter from the company. I think at the end, the tape on my camera that i peeled back started showing and I didn’t realize it until after, oops. I had a combination of written and speaking components on it.

    8. Faintlymacabre*

      I had one once. I found it harder than an in person or phone interview, because it was just me talking to an empty room. I am rather shy, so I thought the video interview would be easier, but as it turns out, I prefer being able to establish a rapport with a human being.

    9. Nieve*

      I’ve done this for a government job (not in US) where they got over 800 applications. I honestly dont think ANYONE likes these, but I understand why it is used and why it could be a good method for employers/recruiting company if they have a lot of applicants to go through. The video part was the first stage, if you passed you got to the phone screening stage. Then those who passed the phone screening would be invited to a full-day assessment centre in one city (all travel costs and accommodation for the night before paid for). So I guess the video method is a good way to decide who bothers enough to look professional for the video, how they answer questions on the spot, appearance when speaking (this was a public-facing role) etc… Probably is useful in saving costs for paying for applicants’ travel to be able to see how the applicant presents themselves before inviting them to the last stage. I got the job in the end so it was all worth it, so I dont hate it but more like neutral. If I was to be told again to do it in the future it’d annoy me but I definitely wouldn’t reject the whole process just because of it.

  30. Belly*

    I’m really struggling with feeling resentment and anger about a number of things at work lately. I’m afraid these feelings have come out in my behavior, and I need to put a stop to it.

    Now, I think that I have some very legitimate grievances, most especially the fact that every excuse in the book is thrown at me when I ask for raises/promotions, but others whose work is equal to or worse than my own somehow get around those obstacles. There are a number of other things going on, too.

    But this doesn’t excuse how I’ve behaved, and it just somehow comes out of me before I can even stop it. For example, I will interrupt people in meetings when they are talking, or I complained to a coworker that I felt that he and I should have been given the same treatment, when he received preferential treatment. It wasn’t very professional, and I regret it.

    I also realize that my tone may be bitter/condescending when I help my coworkers with tasks. I REALLY try to keep it neutral, but when someone who has been recently promoted instead of me asks me for the fifth time how to do a basic task, my bitterness and resentment just pour out.

    I know that if I keep behaving this way, it won’t help my cause. I also realize that I may be getting myopic vision on this–everything feels like a slight, even when some of those things may be fair. It’s getting hard to tell because when you know you’ve been treated unfairly, (especially if it is something you found out about later, which is the case here), it’s like you are suspicious of every little thing.

    I know that my behavior is not the REASON for my lack of progress at work, because it is something that has recently become a problem. I was never like this before, and I don’t like how it looks on me.

    I tried going through my company’s EAP program, but didn’t really receive any insight except a lot of “Wow, that sounds terrible!” from the therapist, who also had no suggestions on how to move forward with this.

    What do I do? How do I get past how awful I feel so that I can behave like a normal person again? I don’t want to ruin my professional reputation here. Right now I do think I still have at least two good references from this workplace, but I know that might go down the toilet if I keep this up.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      That sounds like a no-win environment for you. It may be that you’ve become ‘typecast’ in a way where management just isn’t going to consider you for a promotion, ever. (Happened to me at my previous job) I’d put energy into looking at internal transfers if you want to stay with the larger company, or just leaving for another company and get a fresh start. Maybe looking at your options will improve your mood and ability to handle the annoyances of the current job?

      1. Luna*

        Second this. I was in a very similar situation at a previous job. It sounds like the only thing to do is accept that this is not the place for you to be and start looking for a new job.

        In the meantime, something I heard recently that I think would have helped me earlier, and might help you keep your behavior in check while you search for a new job, is the idea of pretending you’re in Whoville. In the movie about the Grinch who stole Christmas, the grinch was waiting eagerly for all the little Whos to wake up and be upset that their things were gone. Instead they got up and were perfectly happy, still singing and celebrating.

        I know it sounds silly, but it’s a quick way to remind myself that no matter what someone else has done to you, the best response is to pretend to be happy anyway. It’s okay if you don’t really feel that way, you just have to be able to act that way at work.

    2. Badmin*

      Can you take a sick day? Sometimes when I’m feeling really ugly inside and know I won’t be a joy to be around, I take a sick/mental health day. That seems like a short term solution but I have found it to be effective when I have spurts of crankiness.

      Another idea- could you ask for feedback on what specifically you could work on to be a stronger candidate? I know you say they’ve thrown every excuse at you, but what about concrete things you can work on and showing you’re willing to work on those things. It may offer some hope and show your bosses you seriously are interested in moving up.

      I think writing it out also is therapeutic.

      But I echo what everyone says in that it may be time to move on.

      1. Belly*

        Unfortunately, they keep saying it is not about my work, but about office politics/availability of opportunities. I actually am really excelling at my work, especially this year, and that is why them doubling down on no promotion/compensation/recognition really burns me up. And my colleagues, who have not excelled, are getting rewarded instead.

        I am trying to move on…have been looking for another job for years, but it is a bit niche and there haven’t been a lot of opportunities around. Right now I put my job search on hold for some personal reasons.

        Thanks for everyone’s responses. They are very kind, especially when I’m feeling like such a bad person.

        1. Badmin*

          I’m sorry to hear that. I hope things get better. Honestly, taking a sick day, sleeping in, getting housework done, watching Real Housewives, and eating pizza usually helps me reset but I realize yours is very long in the making. I don’t think you’re being a bad person at all. We all get like that at times, and I’ve seen a lot of posts in today’s thread that people in similar situations have posted.

        2. As Close As Breakfast*

          I’ve been in a very similar place as you. I was dealing with issues at work (and personally) that were making me miserable and bitter at work. And it was showing. I was also in a niche job in a market with almost no opportunities, so while I always looked there just weren’t opportunities for a new job. Well, I’m still at that same job and things (me!) are much better. Here’s what helped me:

          1. I broke my behavior down into a couple of line items that were of the most concern to me, like ‘do not let your voice become sarcastic in normal conversation’ and ‘do not roll your eyes, ever.’ I made them as specific as I could, and mentally added them to my job responsibilities. I basically told myself that being a pleasant person was my #1 job priority/responsibility and then listed the actual, physical whats I needed to achieve that.

          2. I listed the reasons I was staying at my job. It’s a somewhat basic thing, but it really helped me. I thought about how anyone, including me, can leave their job at any time really. But there’s a whole bunch of reasons why we don’t. For me this included everything from ‘I haven’t found another job in the area and I really want to (or need to) stay here because of x, y, z’ to ‘my boss was actually really understanding/great when I lost a parent last year.’ When I was annoyed/irritated/at the end of my rope, I’d stop and think about if this THING happening was my hill to die on, and as it never was I would do a mental run down of the reasons I was staying and putting up with this THING for.

          3. I let go of stuff. I struggled with where the line was, between caring less and not caring at all. I didn’t want to become someone that just didn’t give a flying f**k about anything. I just wanted to return to a happier and productive version of myself. So, I focus heavily on what is and isn’t within my control. A lot of the terrible things that I hate about my job are totally not within my control to change. So, I do my best to focus on things that are. And I’ve actually had success with things that I never thought I would. Of course, there are a lot of days where the best I can do is repeat some version of ‘the only real option I have is to find a new job, and I’m looking, so I’m doing everything that’s in my control to do.’ Deep breath.

          I kind of had to train myself to stop with the attitude both externally and internally. It’s probably been 6 months or so though, and I’m in a much better place. Sure, I probably shrug and say ‘eh’ a lot more, but I’m happier and 100% sure that I’m more pleasant to work with. Good luck!!!

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah… this isn’t a good scenario. I’ve been there myself after having a REALLY bad year with a new manager and overload of work combined with under-appreciation and non-understanding of my job. It made me bitter and snarky at work. At some point you have to accept IT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE and you just have to find a new job and get out.
      Sorry, I wish it wasn’t so. I like my new job a lot, but I’m still bitter I had to leave my last job that way, because I loved my work and the job up until the new manager. Unfortunately, it just is that way at some places.

    4. The Commoner*

      I have been in a similar place before and can tell you no matter what I did, just didn’t get better. For whatever reason, the barrier was in place and I couldn’t get past it. Sadly, I stayed too long at that job. In my current job, things are much better. I don’t know what else to say but, good luck.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Self care. A body that is not rested, not properly nourished and hydrated is probably going to have all kinds of words falling out of the mouth.
      It’s easier to hold our tongues if we have other basics in place.

      I had a cohort that ran five miles every night after work. TG he did because even with that 5 miles under his belt he was still challenging to speak with. Probably you do not need 5 miles. But you might get benefit from a brisk walk around your block once a day. It might help to dissipate that negative energy or knock it back so you can keep your words in check.

      My last suggestion is to LIVE your resume. Each day try to think of things that would look great on a resume or sound great in an interview. Do those things. When you apply for jobs you want to be Wonderful OP. Picture that Wonderful Person and live it today.

    6. Nieve*

      Sorry to hear, this sounds extremely frustrating to not know what the issue is.
      Theres some people at my work who are frustrated about not being able to advance/get internal transfer. The reason behind it for most of those people (I hear) are due to their attitude at work. I frequently see those people making offhand comments about various things at work whether it be management issues or others, some of those comments are pretty trivial stuff but so much those people say appear extremely pessimistic. I think most negative comments are not necessary at workplaces unless they are constructive feedback. And I’d think that these people don’t know that something like that is the reason they don’t seem to be advancing in rank, its not something that can be fixed easily as its a personality/intrinsic quality. It seems like a bit of a vicious cycle really, as not advancing would make them feel more negative about the workplace which would make them sound continuously more and more negative as time goes on…
      That was just an example, I wonder if there is something that you do that is ‘hidden’ to yourself but other people pick up on that might be holding you back? Whatever it is, I hope you find out and get an opportunity to improve!

  31. Nanny*

    I made my first significant mistake at my new job. Not like anything crazy or fireable, but definitely something I had to pull in other people for (using their time) and pushed something back a day or two at least.
    Everyone was actually very understanding and someone actually apologized for the gap in my training (I still think it was all on me because I should’ve made sure I was clear on this process) but I can’t help but feel guilty and embarrassed.
    I’ve apologized for the confusion and taking up people’s time, thanked everyone profusely for their help, and made clear what I will do in the future to avoid this.
    Anyone have good advice for moving mentally on from an embarrassing mistake? I’m unreasonably rattled by this. Last (toxic) job was very punitive and hostile about mistakes and I think that’s part of my struggle.

    1. Xarcady*

      After 25+ years of working, I’ve come to realize that just about everyone makes a really big mistake at least once while learning a new job. The mistake usually comes after your initial training, but before you have really internalized the entire job.

      You sound like you are at that point. You’ve done the basic training and can do the basics of your job, but there are gaps. And you don’t have enough experience to know when something isn’t right.

      I think you’ve handled the situation well. Own up to the mistake, ask for help getting it fixed, thank everyone, come up with a plan to prevent future similar mistakes.

      Just keep in mind that most of your co-workers have done pretty much the same thing, so they understand. It feels like a major mistake now, because you are still relatively new and trying to create a good impression. But handling a mistake well also creates a good impression.

      You are not the person at a former job of mine who made the same mistake daily for 6 months, realized the mistake and continued making it because he didn’t want to own up to it. As a result, a client wasn’t billed for any work for over nine months. (And he still wasn’t fired!)

      1. Lora*

        “As a result, a client wasn’t billed for any work for over nine months”

        I bet his resume says: Highest ranking in customer satisfaction

      2. WoSoFan*

        +1 on everyone’s done it and especially “handling a mistake well also creates a good impression”

        This is definitely a “time will heal” situation (at least it was for me).

        When you find yourself ruminating over it, I suggest reminding yourself to be as kind to yourself as you would to a coworker/friend in this situation. Also, be sure to pat yourself on the back for how you responded to the mistake and how that showed your character. You clearly didn’t ignore it and let someone else find/fix your problem after more damage happened. Try to remember that whenever you feel a pit in your stomach about the issue!

      3. Marthooh*

        “I made a mistake and did everything I could to fix it. I now know how to handle that process, and I also know I can count on getting help when I need it.”

        And remember that it takes time to recover from a toxic workplace.

    2. BadWolf*

      If you have reasonable coworkers — you’ve probably just done something good, really. You’ve demonstrating that if you make a mistake (and we all do), you are willing to admit to it, resolve it and thank others. You didn’t blame people, make excuses, hide it, etc. This makes you a good coworker.

    3. Zennish*

      For me, I’ve simply had to learn to accept that I can’t change the past, not even one second ago. There is literally nothing you can do other than learn from it, then live in the present moment. If you’re doing that, you’re already doing everything you can, so there is nothing to be gained by carrying it around. In fact, I’ve found that if I do carry it around, and continue being rattled by it, it affects my thinking and behavior so negatively that I just end up making further mistakes.

      1. Windchime*

        I know you weren’t talking to me, but this is something I really needed to hear today. Thank you.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The only thing that has ever helped me let go of a Big Mistake is building a plan so I do not make that particular mistake again. Here, you have given the added info that it was a gap in your training. So additionally, you can be vigilant for other training gaps. And there may be times where you can ask some one to glance over a section of your work to make sure you are on the right track.

      It sounds like you work with a nice group of people. Tell yourself that old toxic place is so OVER. This helps us to remember that time marches on and things change. We can forget that things change and we sit around waiting for blow ups that never happen.

    5. Akcipitrokulo*

      Make sure you’ve got notes so this one won’t happen again. Then put it behind you. It’s seriously OK to make a mistake. Or more sometimes!

      Mistakes happen. To everyone.

      What matters is how you handle it. You immediately told people, reducing potential harm. You took ownership of it and didn’t try to pass the buck.

      That all tells me you are reliable and conscientious, and when you make another mistake – which you will! – they can have confidence it will be handled appropriately.

  32. MidwestTrainer*

    I work for a very small government agency and the chance to get promoted is very rare, usually when someone retires. Without sounding like I’m blowing my own horn, I’m the most likely candidate to move up but I keep getting passed over. The management can never really tell me why, but the word from the back channels is that I’m so good at what I do and there’s none that can do my job if they let me move up. I’ve decided its time to look elsewhere but I haven’t interviewed in 17 years. I think I need some help with my interviewing skills. I’ve read all the post on AAM but I think I need more specific feedback on my answers. How do I go about finding someone to coach me? There’s really no one at work to help me because we are all pretty much in the same boat and I don’t rewlly have any connections in the local business community. Help!

    1. BRR*

      Do you know anybody who works in the field you want to move into who does hiring? I think anybody who does some hiring in even a semi-related field might have some good insight.

      1. MidwestTrainer*

        No, we are the only agency in the state that does what we do. I’m just hoping to get better at the behavioral questions and get some tips on what I might be doing that could be improved upon.

        1. Irene Adler*

          There are some good articles at The Interview Guys:
          https://theinterviewguys.com/

          I found a great article there re: how to handle those awful behavioral questions (the bane of my existence!).
          There are other articles on interviewing. You’ll need to poke around the site a bit to find everything.

    2. nonymous*

      Try recording your responses to common interview questions. This won’t replace a coach, but it can help you address body language and verbal tics.

      My state has a program called “WorkSource” which offers workshops and resume prep stuff. iirc the quality was meh (it’s not optimized for the higher-end crowd), but they are really good at giving people who have been out of the hiring market a survey of the different sites you can use, and there is a job board which can be helpful in kicking off the search process. They have mock interviews and workshops for target groups which can be useful for practice and self-esteem purposes.

      Maybe your state has something like this? Also, consider your alma mater – my career center has services for alumni beyond recent grads. And if you’re at a state or federal agency perhaps look for employment at the same, because your benefits might roll over. (Like if you work for the state now and switch to working at the stateU, sick leave balances and vacation accrual rates may transfer)

    3. Bea*

      I had to leap into interviewing after 10+ years and know the stress and worry.

      Understand that you may need a couple chances to dust off the cobwebs. The fact you’re stuck and being passed over due to you’re too good, that’s easy to explain to anyone you’re speaking with.

      You can’t always prepare and don’t let the dust on your interview skills stop you from trying. I found each one I had the better I got. So much more than all the coaching and trying to squeeze out perfect answers.

    4. it_guy*

      If it helps, try to get an interview for something you probably don’t have a realistic chance and use it as a practice interview. Doing an interview where you are not totally sure you want the job will totally lower your stress on interviewing. And you never know you may get a totally awesome job anyway.

      I actually interviewed with a company where I thought “These folks are never going to hire me because I don’t have teapot spout experience”, so of course I totally nailed it and in the process showed me some really upsides to the job and they made an offer and I accepted!

    5. Windchime*

      I hadn’t interviewed in almost two decades before I started looking for a job a couple of years ago. I decided that I was just going to be myself (well, with out the swearing!). I tried to give thoughtful and honest answers to the behavioral questions. I was interviewing for an IT job at a police department and they asked, “What draws you to public service?” Cripes! I hadn’t thought of it that way; I was just thinking “IT job”. So I thought for a second and said, “Well, we are all in this world together and I feel it’s our responsibility to take care of each other and help when we can.” Not rehearsed, not canned, not a perfect answer at all. But it was my answer and I think it came off as honest. Must have been OK because I got an in-person interview.

      I guess my point is that interviewers aren’t looking for canned, rehearsed answers. They really want to know what YOU think, what your viewpoint is, what your experiences are. So be honest. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t prepare, but think about what your honest viewpoint really is and then go with that.

  33. Jessen*

    So I have a work pants question. I’m working on building a nice little professional capsule wardrobe. But I have a devil of a time with pants (and I’d rather not wear skirts). The problem is I am:

    – petite (5′ nothing)
    – extra curvy (to the point where most “curvy fit” pants are too big in the waist and too small in the hips)
    – not in the plus size category (this is mostly annoying for google searches)
    – tend to have 5-10 pound weight changes regularly

    I tend to favor either leggings or very loose pants because of that, but neither of those are really professional options. I really just want some pants I can buy and when they wear out, go back and buy more without a 6 week hunt for the one pair that fits, but won’t fit in 5 pounds.

    Any other ladies got some good styling recommendations or things to look for?

    1. Hurricane Wakeen*

      Have you tried ponte pants? They can be pretty form-fitting, so they’re not appropriate for all offices, but they might have enough stretch to accommodate you. White House Black Market has ponte material in a variety of cuts, and I recently got a pair of Liverpool pants from Stitchfix that I love.

      1. Sm-access!*

        For really reasonable–think replace every season–slacks, I have had good luck at NY&Co. They have a wide variety, stock average, petite and talls and many different cuts. Their pull on pants are forgiving and help with the weight changes, Sometimes their quality isn’t super top drawer, but they are nice enough for me (I work in a business-casual higher ed office).

      1. Jessen*

        That falls into the “I don’t particularly want to wear skirts” category. I don’t like having bare legs a lot, and I feel like most of the shoes I find comfortable really only look good with pants (I basically only find oxford or mary jane shoes comfortable in women’s dress shoes).

        2. CTT*

          What about dresses or skirts with leggings? That way you can wear leggings while formal-ing it up a bit. And I think the shoes you’ve described would go well with that.

          1. CTT*

            (Although if you are just not comfortable with something that’s not pants, then I totally get that. Since I live in the dress+leggings combo in the winter I felt compelled to share it.)

            1. Jessen*

              I guess I feel like around here it’s considered a less formal option? The only options that really look professional are pants, or knee-length skirts with pantyhose. It’s distinctly possible I’m overthinking it though.

              I’ve also managed to have the same fit issues with leggings – I call it the “sliding down my backside or bunched up at my ankles” dilemma. They tend to not be build to accommodate ladies with more of a rear.

            2. Jessen*

              But yeah, I’m just not sure how much I want to deal with something that’s not pants. Plus I’m really going for the capsule wardrobe thing where I can swap tops out and wear the same pants more than one day in a row, which doesn’t work so well with dresses. Dresses are much more the sort of thing where you need to have a different dress for a different day, whereas you can pretty much wear the same black pants and same top in a different color the next day.

              1. CTT*

                For me, I have a similar issue to you with fit on clothes, except I have broad shoulders which makes finding structured work-appropriate tops really difficult. For whatever reason, I have less fit issues with dresses or just wear a sleeveless dress with a cardigan. So while I am in love with the idea of doing a capsule wardrobe like you want, it ain’t happening. (Although when I was working I rotated through the same 7 or so dresses and if anyone noticed they didn’t say anything.) I’d love to hear a capsule wardrobe update from you when you get it all together!

                1. Jessen*

                  Fair enough! There’s probably also some queer/gender identity issues playing in. I’m very much the sort of person who would be much more comfortable and happy in a neuter or androgynous wardrobe. But those looks really don’t have options for the curvy woman, and they tend to not be considered really professional enough.

    3. Ashley*

      Have you tried Ann Taylor? Theirs tend to fit with some stretch. Also a good belt and longer shirts / sweaters to help with the gap.

      1. Jessen*

        I was thinking of the longer shirt, maybe even a tunic option. A tunic might also help with pants when my weight’s a little higher, just by disguising my rear a bit. I’ve also been trying to find pants that CAN be worn with a belt – around her most women’s work pants do not have belt loops.

        1. Anonymous for this one*

          I know you said you weren’t plus size, but Torrid has some pants that are good for work that have belt loops. They’re classified as like a jegging but they’re black and not jegging material. Actually ok for work. I’d look through their pants on their website. IDK what size you are but they start at 10 so they might work for you. I recently lost a lot of weight and was still wearing some of my pants with a belt. Good luck!

    4. rosiebyanyothername*

      Uniqlo has great tailored pants–they’re called “Smart Style Ankle Pants” according to the website. They look like regular tailored pants but have a secret elastic waistband! I am also petite and curvy but not plus size, and Uniqlo is honestly where I get like 90% of my work clothes.

      1. Becky*

        Oh I might have to check that out. I’m petite and curvy and in a weird place with my size right now–I’ve lost 75 pounds since last May and hope to lose about 40 more so I don’t want to invest too heavily in my wardrobe until I am more settled in my weight–but even at a lower weight I will still be curvy (the women in my family all have prominent hips and buttocks even at a healthy weight).

      2. epi*

        I am also petite and curvy and I was going to recommend these too.

        I don’t personally find the elastic back that subtle, but mine are a couple of years old and one pair is light with a pattern. It’s less obvious with my plain navy blue pair. They do look good with half-tucked shirts if you are like me and like everything about them but the elastic.

        I just wore mine yesterday with a half tucked-in Portofino shirt from Express, because I had a meeting during the day and a date at night. Worked great!

        1. Jessen*

          Thankfully most of the tops I’m looking at would be naturally worn untucked and as longer styles. So I can do more with the waistband and no one will ever see it.

    5. fposte*

      I think you may have to be fatalistic on the “when they wear out, go back and buy more” thing. Global manufacturing makes it unlikely that pants will be that consistent over years even if they’re the same named “model”–they’ll be sourced differently, made in different factories, etc.

      I’d also definitely put a tailor into the mix. It’s worth at least pricing out the cost of getting waist and legs taken in on something larger, and you *definitely* don’t want to pass up otherwise fine pants because they’re too long.

      That being said, Ann Taylor and Banana Republic are the two I know that have some curvier fits and include some stretch in their fabric. It also wouldn’t hurt to hit up a Nordstrom and ask for a personal shopper’s advice–there are lots of brands that she’ll know that you probably won’t (and neither will I!).

      1. Xarcady*

        I agree on the tailoring. It may be the only way to get pants that really fit. My waist is so much smaller than my hips that I have to get all my pants tailored, or risk having them fall down.

        The result is that I don’t own many pairs of work pants. But the ones that I have, fit.

      2. Jessen*

        The main question on tailoring would be how to ensure I get something that accommodates weight changes without too much trouble. I can hem pants with good result, but other stuff might be trickier.

        1. fposte*

          Absent an elastic gore, I don’t think you can really tailor that in to pants if it’s not there already; flexibility is mostly going to be about material and style (and of course you can make sure that they tailor for a forgiving fit).

          While YMMV, I’ve also found that my pants are very forgiving of 5-10 lb. fluctuations in general. It may be worth factoring in where you carry your weight gain–if it’s mostly belly, cut yourself more waistband slack, and if it’s more hips and thighs, look for room there.

          1. Jessen*

            That reminds me of my other frustration. I carry weight almost exclusively in my hips/rear. And only there as far as pants – my thighs do not add weight, despite curvy pants generally being cut large in the thigh as well. But that’s easier to fix than a waistband.

            1. nonymous*

              Try having your tailor add an adjustable elastic waistband. The way I’ve seen it work is that the pants are sized for the larger fit, and then elastic is run through the waistband area, but instead of being sewn in, there are buttons which let you set how tight it is.

              Tutorial link in name elasticizes the whole waistline, but I’ve seen this approach used on just the sides as well.

              1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

                My husband has some trousers like this. There is a sort of overlapping piece in the waistband that slides out when the elastic bits are extended, so you don’t have the bunched up, gathered elastic look like you get on some stretch waistbands. I have also seen a few trousers lately that have a section on either side of the waist that is just a big panel of elastic while the rest of the garment is more typical trouser fabric, though with a bit of stretch. I haven’t tried any myself but that might work for you?

            2. SarahKay*

              I would say find a pair that fit well on the hips and and then get some tailoring to bring in the waist, and perhaps the legs also if needed.
              While taller than you, I have same issue – big hips/rear, small waist. Some years back I had a pair of pants that were perfect (wish I’d bought half a dozen pairs) that were generous in the hips and curved well in at the waist. They coped with about 10lb of weight change – at my largest I filled them; at my lightest, because the waist curved in well, although they would sit lower they still didn’t sit *too* low on me.
              The other possible option might be an elastic waistband, and then a fitted shirt that you would wear over the pants, rather than tucked in. Or you could wear it tucked in, of course, but in my head elastic waistbands on my pants screams ‘old lady’ (my hang-up on me – not sure I even notice it on other people!) which is why I want it invisible.

        3. LilySparrow*

          1) Do you sew at home, and 2) How much do you care about preserving the looks of the waistband? If you don’t wear tucked-in tops, or you wear a belt, you could DIY some waistband elastic the way I do for my daughter’s jeans.

          I just get a length of 3/4 to 1 inch wide elastic and tack the end to the inside of the waistband, at a point about halfway between the side seam and the center back. Then I put the machine on the widest zigzag and pull the elastic taut as I sew until I reach the same point on the opposite side. If there’s a belt loop I stop and skip over it.

          It does look “Becky Home-Ecky” when it’s bunched up, but if you match the thread to the cloth it’s not noticeable when stretched out or under a belt. It’s quick, cheap, and comfortable.

      3. Reba*

        Yes, I would say accept that a tailor is going to be in your life. It adds $30-50 to the cost of your pants but it’s actually a great experience to have clothes that fit! Manufacturers’ fit models just don’t match everyone.

        Get pants that fit reasonably in the butt, have the waists taken in. Talk to the tailor about your issues, and they should be able to advise you about what to look for in pants so that they can be tailored to suit you. Someone who knows their stuff and is trustworthy is really invaluable. I’ve had a tailor tell me to return something that wasn’t going to work (I was sad but it was good advice–a pocket issue). Like you, Jessen, I can do hems and basic slimming but leave waistbands to the pros.

    6. OldJules*

      Dressbarn, Kohls, JCP has a good petite short collection of pants for women.

      I am 5 nothing and swing in between M – 1X depending on work (yes, I stress eat). I love how DressBarn has size for all shapes. You need to go to the store though to get the perfect fit. They actually think in size AND shape. So a size 12 for me and you could differ based on which collection you try on.

    7. NaoNao*

      I work for Eileen Fisher, so I can testify to their amazing quality. The fabric, sourcing, finishes, and details are all superb. The pants styles come in cropped and full length, and most are stretch or “flowing” (ie, silk, silk georgette) so can grow or shrink with the bod.
      Best news: sizes in XXS-XL *and petites*. XXS is about a 0-2, XS is about a 4-6, and so on up to an XL being about a 16-18. Petites are smaller in the rise, shorter in the leg, cut more narrowly, and overall less fabric, than “missy” sizes. (Yes, retail still calls it missy!)

    8. Pollygrammer*

      I have a similar body type, I think, and I just usually go for wider leg trousers, where fit at the hip is less tricky, and they’re plenty professional when ironed with a crease. And belts.

    9. anna green*

      New York & Co make elastic waist dress pants that look professional but accommodate weight fluctuations. Not sure if they’d work with your body type, but worth a try :)

    10. Overeducated*

      Good news is that cropped/ankle work pants seem to be coming (back?) in style. They’re not formal enough if you have to wear suit type stuff, but with oxfords and a blouse they work. Not the most flattering in terms of “extending the leg” as traditional fashion advice for short people, but they can just make it so much easier to find options! I’m 5’1″ and have two pairs of stretchy pull on ankle pants from JC Penney (not leggings, with seams and waists, but not THAT far off). My coworker who is very curvy wears cropped ones with a more relaxed fit and wider leg and they look cute.

    11. Cookie Monster*

      I usually am also super anti-pants but Old Navy has some incredibly comfortable and work appropriate pants in a variety of colors this season. They’re called “pixie pants” and they have an ankle cut-off option and normal lengths, so they may work for you. I definitely also have thicker thighs but am not plus size, and they fit me well. I don’t know how formal your office is, but I find these look professional and cute.

    12. Book Lover*

      I really wish I had brilliant ideas. I’m right around your height, also, extra curvy but not plus size. I honestly haven’t found anything that doesn’t look awful. The best advice I received was to buy to fit the hips and then tailor a whole bunch, but the cost is significant and I still don’t like the way I look. So I do skirt suits and dresses and buy comfortable heels – Clarks mostly.

    13. StressedButOkay*

      Have you tried eshakti? They’re an online store where you can either buy ‘off the rack’ or give them exact measurements and tailor things how you like them. I believe the tailoring is an extra $20 on top of the price of the clothes. (They do pants and blouses, along with dresses and skirts.)

      1. Book Badger*

        Seconding eShakti. They’re expensive (particularly their dresses) but everything comes tailored so it’s worth the extra money. And dresses (not sure about pants) come cut to your height for free.

    14. Emily*

      I’ve heard that some women have luck with Betabrand stretchy dress pants, but I haven’t tried them personally to know how professional they look.

      1. Uhmealeah*

        I was going to comment about Betabrand pants. I love them. I’m 5’3″ and go with the Petite and would recommend it. I could stand it being an inch longer to wear with heels, but the regular length is WAY too long. If you are comfortable wearing stretchy pants, I’d recommend them. They have a great return and exchange policy, too.

      2. Joielle*

        I have a pair of these and I love them! I feel like I have to dress up a little more in the rest of the outfit (usually wear heels and a blazer with them) but they look professional if you do it right. They’re basically just ponte pants.

    15. DM*

      I’m similar to you (except almost a plus size). Curvy, 5′ and I prefer pants. I actually shop a lot at ThredUp recently. I end up sending a LOT back and take the store credit, but it lets me find a couple of pants for cheap. If I don’t like them, they go back. Their inseam sizes are really off, though, so it’s hit and miss.

      There are also online custom suit places that I’m considering, but like you, my weight tends to fluctuate. I’ve hesitated going that route, but if you’re consistent within 10 pounds, then maybe just measure yourself at the mid-weight mark (five pounds up, but five pounds less than your max). An extra five pounds is unlikely to really matter too much in the fit of your pants unless they are one of those no-give polyester or silks…and even then I think it would still be doable (at least in my own experience as I go up and down. I usually have to go up 10 pounds to really notice in the fit of my clothes).

    16. SF chic*

      I have similar issues. I am pear shaped. I fluctuate 5-10 pounds regularly because all of my weight/water goes to my butt/upper thighs. You have two solutions.

      You have a few pairs of modestly priced pants in two sizes. And you go back and forth between them. I recommend the curvy fit ankle pants at Loft. Some people like the curvy sizes at Banana Republic. They are often on sale, and are quite affordable and are thick/substantial and have a bit of stretch as well. And you wear a belt as needed, and if your figure is too extreme for these pants, you pay for them to be tailored at the waist. That is what you have to do.

      Leggings and ultra baggy pants so big you can fluctuate a size or two are not work appropriate. Don’t go this route. Your instincts are good.

      And then yes – you have a few dresses or simple skirts. A line or shift. These can easily accommodate your weight changes. If you are self conscious about your legs, then you wear them with tights as your fall/winter wardrobe, and move back to pants when tights are no longer weather appropriate. Also, in summer you can use self-tanner on your legs or wear hose, if they make you feel more comfortable. Or wear shorts (skimmies) under your skirt to make it more comfortable.

      You can’t have everything. As you know, clothing doesn’t fit most of us straight off the rack, and manufacturers change their sizing and cuts all the time. Pants are incredibly difficult to size well, so you are asking for the impossible. You have to compromise, pay for things that must be done (tailoring/belts) and buy skirts/dresses to side step this issue and work on your comfort factor.

      REPLY

      1. Jessen*

        I guess for me that just makes it sound like it would be worthwhile spending the rest of my life making $10 an hour at Walmart so I could avoid this.

        I’d hard to explain how much I hate dealing with women’s dress clothes. I have literally gone home and cried after shopping. And it’s not a self-esteem thing, I don’t hate my body or feel uncomfortable in it, I just find the shopping experience itself to be that stressful. You’re pulling uncomfortable pants on and off your body in bright lights and constant headache-inducing music that you can’t get away from and for some reason they keep putting allergy-inducing air fresheners in every dressing room. Every single item that doesn’t feel like a costume is either unprofessional or doesn’t fit, and then dealing with pesky sales people who won’t stop asking if you need help and making suggestions and just go away so you can hear yourself think. You’ll try on 20 pairs of pants and none of them will fit, and people suggest just shopping online but how are you supposed to order pants if you’ve tried that many and none fit? If you want to wear skirts you must also buy painful shoes to go with them because it isn’t possible to get a shoe that is both professional with a skirt and doesn’t painfully squish your foot. Trying to explain this to sales people just gets confused looks (“what do you mean the length and width are ok but it’s too low? You said you wanted flats!”). Skirts mean you freeze in anything air conditioned too and have to constantly put up with shaving – armpits are bad enough. And you’re expected to spend money on that and then go back and do it all again every year or two.

        It’s just a reminder of how much I really really hate being female. Not in a “I hate my body” sort of way – I like my body just fine. More in a “I feel like I am expected to put in a lot of time, money, and energy into acting the Acceptable Cis Female because of the body I have.” It’s probably some combination of easy sensory overload and a confusing mess of gender identity that doesn’t like being reduced to “the pretty girl.” (I’ve also gotten far too many unsolicited Man Part Opinions while looking for this stuff other places, which just…ugh, seriously?)

        And I’m ranting now. I need sleep.

        1. Book Badger*

          I also hate shopping, for many of the reasons you describe. I’ve gotten severe headaches before from trying (and failing!) to buy a pair of jeans. Shoes are especially the worst. I’m the person who refuses to shoe shop unless my shoes are literally falling apart (and even then I still have superglue, shoe polish, and sometimes even nail polish if the paint is wearing off): I have narrow heels, which turns all shoes without straps or laces into flip-flops, and my left foot is a half size larger than my right.

          As someone who wears skirts on the regular, though, I think it’s fine to wear Mary Janes or loafers with them. I genuinely cannot wear pumps (narrow heels!) and never learned how to walk in stilettos, so I wear shoes with thick heels and straps, even with skirts, and I’ve never been told my shoes don’t match. If you find a shoe that looks like a classic pump but has a strap, all the better.

          I have been told by people who know more about fashion than I do that heels that slope inward towards the front of the foot, rather than straight down, are more comfortable because they support your foot more, if that helps. And there are shoes that are made to be more comfortable by design (I happen to like Söfft). But take my stuff with a grain of salt.

          1. Ktelzbeth*

            I wear Mary Janes with my skirts. I wear leggings with my skirts. I’m freezing all the time and I need comfy shoes. The rest of this is totally off topic if dresses are not your thing (and as another person with a complicated gender identity, I can see that), but you can make a capsule wardrobe out of the right black dress. Wear a shirt underneath so that can be the piece you wash and change up the blazer/sweater/scarf.

          2. Jessen*

            My shoe problem is that shoe sizing is done in two dimensions (length and width) and feet have a third dimension. Said third dimension on me is apparently not the same in ratio to the other two as shoe manufacturers think. so most women’s dress shoes fit the length and width and still painfully crush my toes because there isn’t enough room. I pretty much have to wear styles that aren’t flat on top of the toebox, which eliminates 95% of women’s dress shoes.

            1. Book Badger*

              Oh, so you need a high/deep toebox? Or is it something else? Because I think they make shoes specifically for that, usually for people who are on their feet all day, like food service workers and cashiers.

              1. Jessen*

                I do, but they make it very hard to find. When I’ve tried to search I get either a lot of sort of plasticy stuff that isn’t really dressy, or a bunch of wide shoes because google’s trying to be helpful.

        2. fposte*

          I feel you on so much of this, and I have to say shopping at home has made a huge difference for me. It’ll depend on your willingness to deal with the postage premium and your access to easy dropoff or pickup, but 1) I don’t have to have the “treading water until I’m out of here” feeling or talk to anybody and 2) the choice range is *so much wider*. So stuff I’m likelier to like, without 30-foot ceilings, the odor of aging sweet pretzels, and badly amplified pop–it’s a win all around.

        3. Hrovitnir*

          I feel you very much on your last paragraph. Internet gesture of support! I’m actually eternally grateful for having worked in medicine followed by science for the last decade and a bit (despite the low pay in my positions) for this reason – I can live in jeans. Nice jeans, but jeans.

          I definitely think that either buying something that’s close to what you want and having it altered or even getting your pants made entirely by a tailor would be ideal if you could afford it. I know tailors and while it’s not cheap, it’s not as expensive as you’d think for having clothes that actually fit your body and last far better than off the shelf. (I can’t give you estimates as I wouldn’t trust my memory and I’m not in the same country.)

          Outside of that I think it’s just a horrible continuous process of buying pants that aren’t quite right. :/ (Most of my weight sits in my butt and thighs so I have similar problems – anything that fits my legs tends to gape at the waist and I haaaate it. I’ve found some jeans that work for me though, so I just wear the same jeans constantly. If I had to organise a formal wardrobe I *know* I’d cry.)

        4. Totally Minnie*

          I feel you on the shopping frustration. I really wish online shopping sites had a function where I could put in my measurements and the website would tell me what to buy.

        5. LilySparrow*

          I love being female, but I’m not particularly interested in fashion, and I hate clothes shopping for all the reasons you just mentioned. Sensory overload is a big one, as are aggressively “helpful” salespeople. If the chemical smells are really bad, I just have to walk out.

          I’m tall but oddly proportioned (bizarrely long arms, high waist, very long rise, 2 sizes different top & bottom, flat chest and butt but nearly plus-sized). Finding clothes that fit me off the rack is tough. Honestly, I’ve discovered over the years that the better made, more expensive clothes are more likely to fit and look good. But they’re really out of my budget. So I shop thrift, consignment, and clearance. (By happy convergence, these are also the stores and sections where salespeople are least likely to bother you.)

          Learning to sew made a big difference for me, because it gave me a different perspective on clothes as objects with a job. They are supposed to feel good and make me look good to my own eyes. If they fail, then they are Not Doing Their Job. Bad pants. Bad.

          I have a pretty good eyeball sense by now of what types of colors, cuts, and fabrics will most likely work on me (wide leg, mid to high rise, fabrics with some thickness or lined, contour waist, and so forth). So when I have to shop, I can get in and out pretty quickly with no agonizing. It’s okay to tell salespeople “thanks, I’ll come get you when I need help.”

          Even if you can’t find multiple versions of the same pants, you can look at the ones you have that work for you, and see what the common features are. Then just don’t bother with anything that isn’t on the list of characteristics.

          I guess what it comes down to is, “other people’s expectations aren’t reality.” They arent’ even real expectations – they are a marketing pitch. The entire fashion industry, and most rules of what is or isn’t “done,” are marketing pitches. I’ve worn flats with skirts in very conservative professional settings (and seen plenty of high-end executives doing the same). I’ve worn the same pair of slacks 3 times a week. Nobody really cares as long as you’re clean and not wrinkled.

          The majority of stuff out there about clothes, expectations, gender roles, and bodies is just nonsense. If a sentence has the words “supposed to” in it, it’s probably bunk.

    17. awb*

      Some tips from a fellow short, 5lb either way means I size out of existing clothes woman:
      1. Elastic back pants from uniqlo are amazing. They look like regular suiting pants, but the waistband in the back is elastic. You can tuck the front in, and leave your shirt loose in the back to hide it. It’s near invisible on black pants.
      2. Fit for your hips, and learn how to do basic sewing to take in the waist, or get them tailored. it is 100% worth it if there’s a big discrepancy between your hips and waist and gives you a lot more options.
      3. Buy pants with a high amount of stretch – look for up to 10 or 15% elastic and while it might be a bit tighter on your higher weight days, it won’t be unwearable or inappropriate for work. Also, it’s just safer to have a few pants for both sides of the spectrum to cover your basis if you do yoyo a bit.

    18. MissDisplaced*

      I am 5’1″ and a sort-of plus petite (size 16-18 or 16W). This means work pants are as elusive as a purple unicorn.
      My all time favorites come from JCPenney. I call them my magic pants as they can withstand a few pounds of weight gain and loss. They wash well and travel well and are reasonably priced.
      1. Worthington Slim Fit, Slim Leg ankle pant

      Runner up used to be Liz Claiborne Emma Ankle Pant, (also at JCP) but they’ve changed the cut and fabric so I don’t buy them as much anymore. However, I am still a big fan of the Liz Claiborne suiting separates line, so if you can fit into the petite versions you might like them a lot.

      Warning: Do not buy online! JCP website is horrible and you can’t see the fabric. Plus, the descriptions are not the same as the tags on the pants and you can’t match the SKU. I made that mistake and ordered the wrong thing.

    19. Bostonian*

      OH MY GOD THIS IS ME.

      What “curvy fit” pants have you tried that haven’t worked? I’ve found that “curvy fit” Worthington slacks work for me, and they come in petite, too.

      And I definitely agree with the comment about learning to sew to take in the waist. That bunched up extra waist fabric is the BANE of my existence!

    20. AFreeLabRat*

      I strongly advocate finding a good tailor and factoring that in as an expense when looking for pants, then when you find a pair you like just buy two sizes and have the waist taken in to two different sizes. I have this same issue (on the top half) and I buy everything in a size too big then have the waist taken in. Its annoying to pay extra for literally everything, but I am a strong proponent for having less items that fit well than wasting money on things that you likely will never wear because you hate. I do not think that legging are ever an acceptable alternative, they will always look young, unprofessional, and casual, no matter what.

    21. Totally Minnie*

      I sometimes cheat at work pants by buying well cut black jeans. As long as they’re not the kind with sparkles all over the back pockets, you can get a pair that looks pretty similar to dress pants and feels just as comfortable as your off-duty clothes.

      1. Totally Minnie*

        Of course, this works mostly because I’m in a business-casual office. I don’t know if it would work as well in a full business dress office.

    22. Marthooh*

      What I do: get pants that fit at the hips and take in the waist myself. This isn’t really tailoring, though, it’s very simple if you’ve ever done any sewing. Thread embroidery floss (or similarly thick thread) on a biggish needle and make a long stitch on the inside layer only of the waistband. Pull it tight and tie it off with a square knot. Start with about three such stitches evenly spaced around the waistband and try on to see if it helps. This is basically a way to make belted slacks look good with the belt pulled in. This very forgiving since you can add stitches to take the waist in or snip some to let it out.

      I hope this descrition is clear enough to be helpful!

      1. Jessen*

        Sounds like a simpler version of adding an internal drawstring, which is also something I’ve seen done.

    23. KG*

      Ooh, me me me!

      The answer is Talbot’s. Good petite section, very good quality. They also tend to have good, experienced saleswomen who really know the clothes and can tell you how things will wear over time.

      If you are that dramatically curvy (same), you still may need to buy a size up and get the waist taken in an inch. The Talbot’s near me doesn’t do alterations, but keeps a list of local recommended tailors. As a fellow weigh fluctuator (new word), I’ve regained sanity by buying the same style in two sizes, and going back and forth as needed.

      Yeah, it’s an investment to buy quality pants, get the waist taken in, and buy two sizes, but I’ve worn the same three pairs of work pants regularly for 2+ years. Which means I haven’t gone pants-shopping in two years. Worth it.

      1. Totally Minnie*

        I’ve been given a couple of recommendations for Talbot’s lately, and I have a question. Do Talbot’s dress pants have normal sized pockets? The fake pockets on women’s pants are the bane of my existence.

    24. AnotherLibrarian*

      You may just have to go to a tailor. Buy pants that fit your biggest measurement. For me, that is also my hips. Than take them to a tailor and have the waists brought in and the hems taken up.

    25. epi*

      Also, you would never think it from their marketing but Express is a great place to put together a work capsule wardrobe. I own two pairs of their Editor pant and they are much more forgiving of weight change than my elastic waist Uniqlo pants, because the cut isn’t as slim. They have a short size but I think in the past I’ve just gotten them hemmed. They are washable and can hold up for years of regular use.

      A few years ago I went back to grad school and got rid of all my old office clothes that I didn’t really like but had to keep since I had to be in an office every day. I replaced all that stuff with a couple pairs of Editor pants and a couple Portofino shirts that all went together, just for conferences and meetings. I think it was a year before I felt the need for anything else, despite my weight going both up and down in that time.

    26. tab*

      I’m a big fan of Eddie Bauer curvy fit pants. In addition to fitting my larger hips and thighs, they are made of stretch fabric. They’re the only pants or jeans I buy. You can get petite trousers in multiple colors. They’re running a 50% off sale this weekend.

    27. Oxford Coma*

      I struggle with similar issues, and I have to wear pants (skirts or dresses are prohibited) so I need a lot of them. I would also kill for pockets!

      My best tip is to stick with straight leg cuts, so you can hem as needed without screwing up the silhouette of the pants.

    28. Hannah*

      I’m also very curvy and have had luck with Talbot’s “curvy” line (online only), although they can be a bit pricey. I also buy a lot in Ann Taylor’s curvy fit, but NOT Loft (not curvy enough for me). I have good luck sometimes in the outlets getting a good price on those.

      Also, it’s fine to buy pants that aren’t perfect and get them tailored. They can bring in the waist for you for pants you need to size up for your curvy butt.

      Also, a more trouser-like style is going to be more forgiving with fluctuations in weight while also looking professional. Look for completely straight, wide legs–they will not look out of place if you lose a few pounds and the legs are a bit wider.

    30. Artemesia*

      Realize you will have to have them tailored and buy for fit in the butt and have the waists tailored. I wish I had discovered tailoring and how cost effective it actually is in my younger working days when my pants never ever really fit.

  34. Questionable Sales Practices*

    Every year our teapot supplier offers customer rebates for fancy tea pot sets. The marketing agreement clearly states it is illegal to charge the customer our portion of the rebate. However I am being told to include it in the system pricing which because of other factors I can’t do without all sales people knowing we are adding it. Any thoughts on how to convince the boss (owner) not to do this? They tend to be free and loose with rules.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think this is one of those situations where your best bet would be to push back as a group.

  35. Hurricane Wakeen*

    Embarrassing work moment: it turns out that last year, when I was struggling with some severe postpartum anxiety/depression, I got a 7.5% raise and FORGOT ABOUT IT. I changed jobs recently to what I thought was a small pay bump, but it turns out to be a pay cut.

    I’m super embarrassed and just feel bad about it all around. I don’t miss my coworkers at the old job at all, but I know my boss valued me and I wish I’d done a better job talking to him about the reasons I ended up job hunting. I also wish I’d done something to document the raise for myself, because he never sent me an email or otherwise gave me documentation of the raise. Poorly done on both our parts, but I’m pretty sure the blame mostly lies with me.

    Please tell me someone else has done something similarly dumb?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m not sure I understand. Did you get a raise and forget to include that when you were working out salary with your new job? Or are you now feeling guilty because you realize your company valued you and you jumped ship anyway? I don’t see any “blame” anywhere, but I think it’s because I’m having a hard time grasping where anyone went really wrong. Can you clarify a bit?

      1. Hurricane Wakeen*

        Yep, I completely forgot about the raise when I was evaluating other openings. So where I am now is paying me roughly $2k more than I’d been making up until summer of last year, but about $3k less than I was making post-raise. I didn’t negotiate the salary NewJob offered me because I thought it was perfectly fair based on my experience and what I was currently making.

        I’m frustrated I didn’t have written documentation of the raise, whether that was an email from my boss (which was his norm every other time), or my own record-keeping. I could have looked at my pay stubs and calculated it out, I suppose, but a letter with an annual dollar sum would have been nice.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          In that case… well, it sucks, but unfortunately I would chalk that up to one of those things and resolve to make a different decision next time. I mean, I get it– I once accepted a job and realized a few weeks later that I had given up a huge chunk of vacation time without even asking about it– but at this point, it’s done. For what it’s worth, at the company where I stayed the longest, I was promoted/given a raise three times and only got an email about one of them.

        2. Bea*

          You hopefully are somewhere who does salary increases regularly. I took a 3000 paycut when I left on purpose, i needed out and they have better benefits. 90 days in I was up to just a 1000 less. We also get bonuses here so I’ll be above at year end.

          I’m in accounting so I’m shocked that someone wouldn’t know exactly their salary or wages but given the somewhat small issue here, it shakes out to 1.50 less an hour, i hope you’ll find you enjoy the job and they have perks to help you get past this.

    2. Irene Adler*

      I had a co-worker once who freaked out when she opened her first paycheck.
      Seems she had no idea re: withholding and very quickly realized she could not live on the pay she received.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        That reminds me of an acquaintance of mine who didn’t seem to realize that “freelance” meant he was responsible for his own taxes. When February rolled around, he had a big shock. I used to work for the same company and they are very clear about freelance/permanent, so I was a little surprised when he got so upset about it.

  36. Murphy*

    My primary job duties are managing llama wrangling and cat herding. I am the only person who does this. I used to provide support to committees doing somewhat related work, but that work was reassigned to someone else, not because of my performance. I didn’t want this work taken away, but I had no choice. This work was not replaced with anything else, and my workload is quite light some days. My boss has acted like he has no idea why this work was reassigned, but the manager of the person it was reassigned to told me it was because my boss didn’t want to manage that work, so it was taken away from me to get it off of his plate.

    There is a major llama wrangling project that involves one of those groups. When other manager and I discussed the handoff of these duties, we said that I was definitely going to keep this project. My boss asked me the other day if I was eventually going to handoff that project as well. I said no, and I think he was somewhat surprised. Literally my job is llama wrangling and cat herding. Why would I hand off one of our large llama wrangling projects? I’m scared he’s going to get someone to take this work from me too, and that eventually, it won’t end and I won’t have a job any more. It also may have been a one-off comment. Is this a thing I should discuss with him, or should I let it go?

    1. Jules the Third*

      You should have a conversation with him about a few things, because these are normal mgr / employee topics:
      1) Where does he see this position in a few years?
      2) Are there any duties that he would like you to pick up?
      3) Are there things you do that he would like to have *less* visibility to?

      1 & 2 are about finding and adding value to your job. 3 is about giving him less incentive to hand off tasks. If you’re doing them well, does he really need to ‘manage that work’?

      Aside from 1 monthly report / meeting, my boss only knows what I’m doing if I’ve got a failure. I tell him status in that 1x/month thing, but I take care of everything else in my area for him.

      1. Murphy*

        Thanks. We have evaluations coming up in the next month or two, so that might be a good time. I will say, I don’t think he’s particularly interested in being a manager, which might be part of the issue here.

        I’ve definitely done #2. And he’s just said “we should get you more involved in x” and then I never hear about it again. #3 is harder. He kept telling me that the work was being reassigned, and he didn’t know why. He was barely involved with it though, so I was surprised to hear (from someone else) that he didn’t want to deal with it. I don’t see how it caused any more work for him.

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          I’d be wary about what you heard from someone else. You don’t know how reliable that information is. It might not even be true or it might be construed from someone without all the information.

          If there are projects you enjoy working on and don’t want to lose, it is okay to tell him that. It’s also okay to decide if I lose X and Y, than I start looking for something where I can do X and Y.

  37. Holy Anon, Batman!*

    People who deal with parents as a part of their job: how do you do it? I provide services for one child as my job. I am paid by the state for providing said service, but the parents are my “boss” in that we informally figure out the schedule together, the parent decides what services are provided in each session, etc. And this parent is driving me up a wall! They micromanage me (to the point of nit-picking my wording when I’m chatting with the child, saying that I’m not “positive” enough), contact me at all hours expecting a response as soon as possible, not respecting my time by changing our already-set schedule 15 minutes before my shift is supposed to start, and generally treating me like a servant rather than a person who is providing a service that they cannot.

    I can’t quit until this fall, but this job isn’t one that is in line with my career goals so I can burn bridges once I can quit. Most of our conversations happen over text message. The parent has cried when I’ve pushed back on some of the demands and expectations. Can anyone give me tips, a pep-talk, or commiseration from folks who have to deal with parents as part of their jobs?

    1. Afiendishthingy*

      I was a clinician for home-based services for kids with special needs for 4 years. It was intense. Are you working through any agency where there’s a supervisor or clinical consultant above you? I’m guessing you are definitely not paid enough to deal with this shit.

      1. Holy Anon, Batman!*

        4 years?! Daaaamn. There’s no one supervising me or above me at all; it’s a weird set-up but there’s no supervision outside of the parents. I’m not paid enough to deal with it, you are 100% correct.

    2. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I used to be a special education teacher in a very wealthy district, and I had a parent who clearly viewed me as one of her hired help. She would call every Monday morning with her list of things that she needed me to do every week. At that point I was young and inexperienced, so the best thing I came up with was to just let her leave her list on voicemail, and then get to whatever was actually a real concern.

      That said, do not let the tears dissuade you. Be very clear what you can and can not do with the parent. Stick to your rules – if you have them scheduled for a time, don’t change it. If they’re texting you at all hours, silence notifications from them. They are probably used to getting what they want if they are a big enough pain, so the key to getting them to back off is to not give in. Pleasantly but firmly reiterate what you’re able to do/not do for them. Just stay strong!

      2. Muriel Heslop*

        Yes, definitely limit your availability, too. My life really changed with the advent of email and even more with smart phones. I let parents know at the beginning of the year when my off periods are when I will be checking email and that I don’t check email after 6 pm ever. There are no academic emergencies in 8th grade.

      3. Artemesia*

        This. I would make the hours absolutely firm. You can start an hour later today, but you finish as usual at 5 or whatever it is. ‘I am sorry but my work hours are firm — I am available from 8 to 5 as per our contract.’ Then work on contact off hours. Ignore messages one weekend or a couple of days until you are on duty and then text back ” I don’t check work email or messages after X pm; please make a list of things you want to talk about so we can go over them when I arrive.” If they want you to do things that are not part of the job e.g. servant work, just indicate “I’m sorry but it isn’t possible for me to do housework (or whatever it is)”. Listen to feedback about the kid but do what you think it professionally important. Don’t get so wound up in their awfulness that you miss useful feedback. It is easy to slide into this blurring of boundaries in this type situation because of course you are fine with making him a sandwich today — and then suddenly cooking his meals becomes your job. Or you could be flexible tomorrow on timing and suddenly there is no respect for your time. when someone abuses flexibility, it is time to calmly resist. don’t argue — ‘That won’t be possible.’

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      Start drinking.

      No seriously: all parents, even the ones that make you crazy, even the ones that are clearly wrong, even the ones with addiction issues, abusive homes, far more money than sense and malignant neglect…are doing the best they can in the moment. You are helping them to care for and manage the most precious thing they have (even if they don’t know it.) I’ve spent over twenty years teaching gifted and special education students at both very wealthy, high-performing schools and very low-performing, low-income schools. I’ve dealt with a wide variety of demanding parents.

      – Clear boundaries. If she asks you to do something outside your purview and she cries, hand her a tissue. But don’t budge. You’re the professional.
      – Be clear in your expectations. You are allowed to have expectations! It’s not a one way street. Let her know what you expect of her and how you can work together to help her child. (If she doesn’t do it, that is on her and not on you.)
      – Accept that you cannot change the parent.
      – Remember it’s not forever. Because it’s not. It’s a season and you will able to take a lot of skills with you. Learn what you can, earn your paycheck, and move on when it’s time. Don’t believe the cultural trope that people who work with kids are some special angel-people who only do it because we love the children and we aren’t allowed to ask for money, a decent work environment, or have requests and expectations of our own. It’s okay to leave and be happy about it.
      – Get enough sleep, healthy food, and exercise. Critical to managing the stress.

      Good luck! I hope you find something new very soon!

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      No one is going to keep your boundaries for you except you. So… When they contact you at all hours, that doesn’t mean you should respond at all hours – decide on your “on the clock” time and keep it. When they attempt to change your schedule at the last minute (I assume they’re saying “don’t come this morning, come this afternoon instead” instead of “can you be here in 15 minutes”), tell them “I understand if you need to cancel today’s appointment, but I cannot schedule another on such short notice.” When they cry, keep in mind that it’s not your problem, and pretend it’s not happening (pretend they’d be embarrassed about crying and that you’re doing them a favor by “not noticing”).

    5. nonymous*

      I find that state/county subsidized payment to third party – be it child care, housing, etc – creates a strange triangle of finger pointing. What I have been told time and again is that the terms (details) of the arrangement are up to you and the client, as long as you don’t break any rules.

      Also in my state the subsidized rate is ridiculously low. Like $2.50/hr for a babysitter to come over, per kid. Even in the licensed centers it’s only max $5/hr. If you’re accepting below-market rates (unlicensed after-school care in my area runs ~$10/hr, and that’s where the carer has her own kids in the mix), consider that you may have more negotiation power than you think – they may not be able to find another carer of the same quality at whatever rate you’re getting.

      At the very least, stop discussing the details of the care services by text. It’s one thing to coordinate the start/stop times, but any details can be covered at the start of your shift. Can you plan on starting 10-15min earlier than the parents need to leave so there can be a handoff? Also try using a notebook to communicate the day. So you can record stuff like:
      “8 – 8:30 breakfast. 2oz of cereal with 2oz of milk. Ate everything.
      8:30 – 9:30 played with lincoln logs. Pictures sent to Parent1 & Parent2.
      9:30A BM in toilet. We worked on remembering to wash hands afterwards. Stool was well-formed.”

      And they should be writing notes to you re: care. Like “Timmy had a bad nightmare about puppies! He thinks the neighbor’s fluffybutt will attack him during tomorrow’s walk”

      While this won’t help with scheduling or outrageous demands, it can reduce the emotion and inappropriate texting. With the notebook in place, just redirect them to write in that for non-scheduling needs. It also gives you a nice trail to push back going forward “Timmy wasn’t able to paint after lunch yesterday because he didn’t wake up from nap until 3P [point at notebook]. Do you want me to wake him up after 1hr of napping in the future? [write parent’s response in notebook]”

    6. Not So NewReader*

      This is where it is really handy to know the exact description of the services you are supposed to provide.

      “Mom, I am supposed to provide a supportive assistance. My agency does not offer the level of word choice you desire as a service. That is not what we do here. In my role here, I do A, B and C, which is supportive to the child.”

      If you can, “Mom, I would prefer you did not correct my word choice in front of your child. It sends a confusing signal to the child.”

      Changes in schedule: “Out of necessity, I must start to follow a standard where all changes in schedule must be made 24 hours (or whatever time makes sense) in advance. Unfortunately, I am not able to accommodate repeated schedule changes unless there is a very unusual emergency.”

      Hours of contact. “Dad, here are my hours of availability for contacting me regarding your child.”

      Remember that if they are treating you like a servant it is probably because their lives are a mess without you. Typically, we tend to think “oh that person is bossing me around and being a pompous jerk” but reality is that there could be a whole bunch of fear going on there. They could be afraid that they will lose you.
      What this means for you is do not be afraid to set your boundaries, they will probably follow along.

    7. Double A*

      Dealing with parents is why I moved from teaching at a private school to a juvenile detention facility. (I kid, it’s mostly that I love working with tough populations, but I am not joking that having way less involved parents is actually a perk of my current job. It’s also probably the reason my current job exists, but still). So there’s me commiserating about parents.

      Some people have made some really great suggestions about boundaries! I would suggest that you stop texting with the parent and move to email, which will make it easier to enforce those boundaries. Text messaging tends to imply a quick response; email you can set up a respond-within-X-hours expectations. Or, if you can’t do that with this parent, do it moving forward with future clients. I assume you are not getting paid for time outside of your sessions, so you could frame it as a compensation issue, or an agency-rules issue about when you are allowed to respond to correspondence or scheduling requests, if you agency does have any rules like that.

    8. Alianora*

      I recently started a job in operations for a very prestigious institute that provides academic summer programs. We’re in the thick of admissions now, so I’ve been handling a lot of phone calls and emails from parents. I don’t have an ongoing relationship with one student or one parent, but I’ve found these things useful:

      – A very clear concept of what we can and can’t do.
      – Not taking rude remarks personally. People can get intense when it comes to their children.
      – Ability to blacklist a student for awful behavior.
      – Keeping email answers short. Polite, yes, but very matter-of-fact and strictly informative. I like using the phrasing, “Unfortunately, I am not able to ___.” I can point to policy if needed, but over-explaining invites argument.

      Some things I would want to try in your position:

      – Being upfront about the hours you’ll be able to reply to their texts, and sticking to it.
      – Setting expectation about last-minute schedule changes — maybe requiring 24-hour notice.
      – Being polite but emotionally uninvolved. Let them cry, don’t be mean, but also don’t compromise your boundaries because they’re crying.

  38. Afiendishthingy*

    Any advice for maintaining your sanity on a short term contract job? I recently left a job where I was totally burnt out and I’m now covering a maternity leave (March to mid-August). I’m a licensed professional working at a private school and it’s crazy dysfunctional, turf wars and weird rivalries everywhere, my overbearing peer won’t stop trying to manage and undermine me. On the one hand, I’m a temp, ignore the drama and do my job, take notes for a novel I’ll never write. On the other hand, I’m pretty sensitive and have a hard time not being affected by other people’s negative energy. Thoughts, commiseration?

    1. zora*

      Two things that worked for me
      – Since you know it’s short term, focus on the end date. Even if you don’t have a lot of extra money, schedule a treat for yourself for the week after your end date. When I was on political campaigns, it was a trick lots of people used to buy a plane ticket to somewhere awesome for mid-November. Then when you are having an awful moment and don’t think you can take this for one more second, think about your awesome trip and that first day of lying on the beach (or whatever) and somehow it’s a little easier to get back to it.

      – Visualizations. I also am affected by energy around me, I developed this visualization with a therapist where I imagine myself as a strong tree, and then my thick layer of bark, and then imagine all of the crap around me bouncing off that bark. You can search online for other ones. Then when things are crazy, find 2 minutes during your day where you can close a door/go to your car, etc, and do your visualization. Look for meditations and visualizations.

      Also, if you are able or can afford it, try to schedule a couple of sessions with a therapist? They are great at helping develop tools for things like this.

    2. Jules the Third*

      Like I said above, I’m seeing more and more reports about the effectiveness of gratitude.

      Think of 3 things you like about the job.
      When you run across drama / teachers being bad – think of one of those three things. Like ‘I’ll be gone in x months, and you will still be stuck here’

    4. Traveling Teacher*

      For your notes, pretend that your coworkers are all an alien species and study them as such. :) It might even help you to notice a few patterns of behavior that could make your job easier?

      Seriously, though, I’m sorry that you’re going through this!

  39. MissGirl*

    When has a wrong assumption you made in the workplace hurt you or held you back? For instance not applying because you don’t think you’re qualified. Not asking a manager for a specific project because you don’t think it’s allowed.

    For instance I’m not actively job hunting but there’s a few companies I check out now and then. A few weeks ago I found two postings I was really interested in. One had been up for a month, the other almost four months. I figured it was too late to apply for either but hurriedly sent a resume to the latest one and didn’t bother with the four month. Never expected to hear back.

    A week later, I get a call asking me to interview and the recruiter asked if I’d be interested in interviewing for the second one as well.

    I then call a friend who’s actively searching to see if she’d applied at that company because it’s growing so fast. She said no because she’d heard it was really hard to get an interview unless you knew someone.

    Both of us walked away from what could be good opportunities based on false assumptions.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Seen it in others; not advocating for themselves with internal promotions. When a position opened up above me, I had to go to my boss and ask to be considered – then I presented a resume and made my case. So scary but I got that promotion. Most of my coworkers are resentful at not being chosen to be promoted but they never actually asked for it – they didn’t know that’s a thing.

      1. MissGirl*

        Good for you. I know a lot of us start the work world think promotions are given not sought.

    2. Not So Super-visor*

      Ugh… I remember at my first job out of college. I kept trying to advance but there was really no room. I was doing well and well thought of by higher-ups though. They announced an “Emerging Leaders” program, and I was really excited about it. I went to talk to my manager who was new to her manager role. She told me that I wasn’t eligible for the program because I wasn’t currently in a leadership role. That sound off and contrary to how the program was announced to the group, but I didn’t pursue it further even though i had a good rapport with the program’s leader. After they announced who was chosen for the group, the program leader came to talk to me. She said that she was surprised that I hadn’t applied as they had designed the program with me in mind. FACE PALM!!

      2. Nieve*

        Hope you told them why that happened and hope they had a word with your manager! What a frustrating situation

    3. Malibu Stacey*

      1) That just because something isn’t strictly forbidden doesn’t mean it’s okay. I had worked cashier/retail jobs where everything you could not do was spelled out. When I started my first office job, I didn’t think there was anything wrong with things like having long personal phone conversations with my friends, drinking too much at company events, or aligning myself with coworkers who were really fun but didn’t have great professional reputations.

    4. Anxa*

      Oh my goodness.

      There was soooo many jobs out of college I didn’t apply for because “1+ years expereience in ()* was a listed REQUIREMENT and I had internalized so much defensiveness about being an entitled millennial who doesn’t want to pay their dues and is too conceited or too brazen or too whatever.

      This meant I could go weeks without seeing an opening I was qualified for.

  40. Audiophile*

    Anyone else get an email from Random House yesterday?

    I did, actually it looks like I got 2 emails, but that may be an email issue.

    1. fposte*

      I think you’re referring to something specific but I don’t know what it is. Care to share? (I get email from Random House all the time but it’s probably not the email you’re talking about.)

          2. Lore*

            As a member of Team Random House, I can say we are all delighted to hear that (and it’s been a pleasure for me as well).

      2. Audiophile*

        Hah, yes there was supposed to be more text in that post, but I hit submit too soon. Oops!

        Yes, I was referring to Alison’s book.

    2. IrishSurprise*

      About the ARC giveaway? Yep, I got one last night. I never win anything, so I thought it must be spam at first.

  41. MCL*

    Just a little eyeroll to get this out of my system. I was given the silent treatment by a normally friendly staff member this morning, which I noticed because it’s a little unlike her to not say hi to me. It turns out I offended her yesterday because she was looking to deliver an envelope to Jane Smith who does not work in this building, but has taught for our department in the past. She was loudly saying, “Who’s Jane Smith? I’ve never heard of Jane Smith!” while my other colleague and I were saying “Jane Smith has taught for us!” Somehow we just weren’t being heard (she just kept asking who Jane Smith was as we said who she was multiple times), and we just kept raising the volume of our voices because she literally somehow just wasn’t grokking that we were talking to her even though we were specifically answering her direct question. So now she thinks we were yelling at her. And her reaction is to stew about it. I had not even remembered it from yesterday. I’m just so annoyed that instead of saying something like, “Hey, I wish that you hadn’t said that so loud!” (Even though my normal reaction to someone not initially seeming to hear me is to speak louder), she is now just making comments about how I yelled at her and is currently giving me the silent treatment. I’m normally a super polite and easy going person, so I’m bothered. But I’m also exasperated because I was not yelling at this woman and she is handling this childishly.

    On the other hand, the silent treatment is somewhat a blessing because this particular person, while very friendly, is extremely gossipy and will occasionally set up camp and chat for upwards of 30 minutes, so I try to engage with her very seldomly.

    1. JobinPolitics*

      MCL, ouch, I’m sorry to learn your colleague is choosing to be immature and thin skinned about a minor miscommunication. I would attempt to smooth things over before it balloons into something larger but maybe with a few days out of the office it will blow over on its own.

      It’s truly unfortunate when adults resort to behaving like children rather than communicate their hurt feelings. May the situation resolve itself quickly and the silent treatment come to an end without management getting involved.

      Happy Friday!

      1. MCL*

        Thanks! It’s a bummer because I’m a people pleaser and I really hate the idea of someone being offended by something I did. On the other hand, I don’t think I did anything wrong and I don’t feel that I have to apologize. I think I’ll just keep on being my friendly self and hope we’re back to normal next week.

        This particular person does have a bit of a reputation for overblown reactions to minor things, so at least the rest of my colleagues here are sort of eye-rolling in sympathy.

    2. Double A*

      Oh man, I would just take the gift of a chatterer giving me the silent treatment. I love when people think they’re punishing you but really they’re making your life better.

      It’s possible that she thought you were being condescending to her– maybe she didn’t remember Jane Smith, so this issue wasn’t hearing you, it was that she didn’t know who you were talking about, so saying it louder just came off as rude. She’s clearly reacting immaturely to a miscommunication, but it does sound like you might have had a role in it, so it’s always gracious to apologize for your role in a problem.

      If it’s hasn’t blown over on Monday, maybe have a brief chat with her, but otherwise just enjoy your quiet Friday.

      1. MCL*

        Her: “Who is Jane Smith?!? I’ve never heard of her! Who the heck is Jane Smith?”
        Me: “Jane Smith taught for us!”
        Rinse, repeat, with volume increasing. I was literally standing 6 feet away from her, so I genuinely thought she just didn’t hear me while I was directly and clearly answering her actual question. I think the problem was she wasn’t pausing between her questions to actually listen and catch on that I was answering her question. It was kind of baffling, and once I finally got her attention I explained that the letter was misdelivered and went about my day. I actually tend to over-apologize even when I’ve done nothing wrong and I’m really trying to break that habit, so I’m trying to just remain pleasant to her and conscientiously not apologize at all.

  42. Farther and Happier*

    Interviewing for a job that is out of the city I live. The biggest concern for me is this. How do I tell if the people interviewing me have a problem with LGBT people. I ask b’c I am gay and the city I currently work in has protections for me while the state I live in does not. If I leave my current job (which also has LGBT protections in their bylaws) and work outside the city- state law would be fine with me being fired with no recourse.

    How does one ask an interviewer if they are anti LGBT without sounding like a jerk about it? Basically I don’t want to lose the protections I do have now. My state isn’t planning on changing the law anytime soon. And I know I need to be pro-active about protecting myself.

    1. Farther and Happier*

      And just to be clear, I would not be moving. I would just be reverse commuting. I would be driving out of the city for this job. I wouldn’t be relocating for this job.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I think you can slip in something like “my wife and I are looking to move to Lansing” or whatever and see the reaction. Or if they’re bigoted they probably just won’t hire you. Since you are in the position where you don’t want the job if they’re bigoted (as opposed to desperately needing a job and just hoping this doesn’t keep you from being hired) you might as well put it out there first.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Yeah, but I think a significant other could be invented for this purpose. Perhaps a less “permanent” term like girlfriend, even though it is problematic, could be used.

    3. Dinosaur*

      I wonder if you can crouch it by asking about workplace diversity. This is clunky but maybe you could frame it by asking something like “It’s important to me that I work for an organization that values and promotes diversity around race/ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, and educational background. Does Company XYZ have policies in place to support a diverse workplace?”

      1. selina kyle*

        Oh I think this is good! It doesn’t force anybody to out themselves but it poses the question.

    4. Minerva McGonagall*

      Last time it was an issue for me, I waited until I had an offer, and then asked point blank about domestic partner benefits. If they (Manager and / or HR) had looked particularly uncomfortable, that would have been my answer.

    5. selina kyle*

      Hmmm this is tough. I think that you could google around about the company if it’s very big? I’d love someone to have a more firm answer.

    6. MissGirl*

      Go through LinkedIn and look for contacts who work there or know someone they can introduce you to. Most people are willing to answer questions when they realize you’re not using them as in to the company. It can be hard from the outside to really understand a company culture. I would do this even without the LGBT question.

      Side note, I work at a company that appears very conservative from the outside and is in a very conservative area, yet two of my bosses are LGBT. They are comfortable speaking about their partners. We also have a higher ratio of women and minorities than average.

      I also know people who work at tech companies who pride themselves on diversity, yet it’s a huge bro culture.

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      Well, this is actually more complicated than most people realize. If you’re married, you can often get protections under the non-discrimination gender laws i.e they can’t fire you if you are a woman, because you are married to a woman, because that’s gender discrimination.

      However, if you aren’t married, than this becomes a bigger issue as there is no legal protection for sexual orientation on the federal level. I would get the vibe of the place as best as you can and after you get an offer, see if they have a handbook or something you can have a copy of. Does it cover discrimination and harassment and how does it do so?

      I keep trying to think of a way to ask this in an interview and I am drawing a blank. One option might be to flat out just ask, “Can you tell me about your diversity philosophy?” And see what comes out.

  43. MechanicalPencil*

    I have a weird situation. Or… I’m not sure. I’m perplexed.

    My job title per my job description is something like Teapot Designer. On our HR site, my job title is along the lines of Teapot Design Analyst. In actuality, my job is more like something else entirely, but that’s a whole other story. Is this normal? I don’t exactly have a frame of reference for this.

    1. NaoNao*

      Yep, totally normal.
      My “real” job is Instructional Designer, a very common title. My HR job title is a) part of HR (!! the umbrella org Training is under) and b) “Senior Manager, Training Design”.
      I’m not actually managing anyone, but it’s a designation that our company uses for non-union “enterprise/executive” employees.

    2. Jules the Third*

      Totally normal.

      My official job title is ‘Business Analyst’. I’ve been procurement for a decade.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Some companies are like that. I’m currently listed as a “Program Manager,” but I don’t manage any programs.
      The real-world job is Communications Manager. I’ve always equated ‘program manager’ with nonprofits, and that’s definitely not what I do.

  44. Anon for Possible Wage Discrimination*

    I posted last week but didn’t get many responses (although I’ve taken the one I did to heart: thanks, Millenial Lawyer! I’m chatting with a friend who is an employment lawyer to get her thoughts).

    Here’s a (slightly edited, to clear up some confusion) repost from last week’s open thread:

    I’m wondering whether I should say or do anything about some discrepancies I’ve observed in title and salary between men and women at my organization.

    tl;dr: Men are classified one or two levels above women with the same or very similar jobs, which results in a ~20% pay discrepancy. But it’s a super small sample, so I’m not sure it’s actually a pattern.

    Context: My organization recently reviewed and revised the standards for determining what level someone would be (size of budgets, number of programs managed, number of reports, years of experience, etc.), but there isn’t any consistency between those standards and titles people have. The two male program managers in my area have “Senior Director” titles and the four female program managers (including me) have “Manager,” “Director,” or other titles, even though some of the women outpace the men who are categorized as Senior Directors in terms of the metrics (budget, number of reports, etc.).

    I manage a program that cuts across the other programs in my area, which means that in the budgeting process I have access to most of my colleagues’ salaries. As I was working on my budget this year I noticed that the male Senior Director makes about 20% more than most of the female Managers and Directors, even though his metrics (budget, reports, years of experience, etc.) are not higher than all of the women that he is paid more than. For example, the program with the largest budget and staff is managed by one of the female Directors who makes $13,000 less than the male Senior Director.

    I had an experience with this organization last year which I didn’t interpret as gender discrimination at the time (just bad management), but noticing this disparity is making me reconsider what happened. I was offered and accepted a new internal role, which included a title upgrade and a 33% salary increase. Although I stepped into the new role the title change and salary increase never came through. I spent a year working with my employer on this (with many many meetings, including with the CEO, promises that failed to come through, my boss and the interim boss to whom I was assigned both moving on to new jobs, etc.) and eventually shifted back to my original job (and recieved a different title and a similar salary increase, but was never back paid for the year I spent in the new job without the increased salary).

    Is there anything I can or should do? Should I talk with the other women (who don’t have the same salary information that I do, and may not realize that I have access to their salaries)? Am I worrying over nothing (after all, there’s not much information to go on)?

    1. Maya Elena*

      Eh, there are a lot of dimensions you can miss that don’t get covered by size of budget or personnel, especially if only SOME women make more than the man, and the sample size is small (two people? Five? What are we talking here?)
      I’m also assuming $13K is non-negligible percentage discrepancies of the salaries in question. (At least > 5%.)

      Some examples:
      1) Education and tenure. Has senior director been there longer or has a PhD?
      2) specialized skills needed. Does Senior Director run an IT dept of 20 ppl while female Director manage 100 call center reps?
      3) Productivity. Size and budget aren’t the only metrics of competence. For example, a more efficient department may need a lower budget (which your company system appears to penalize, depending on how the budget and size categories are defined).

      2. Anon for Potential Wage Discrimination*

        Thank you, Maya!

        To be clear, the men are getting paid more than the women, not vice versa. The average difference in salary is 20%.

        I don’t think any of the dimensions you listed could reasonably be affecting the discrepancies:

        1) Education and tenure. Has senior director been there longer or has a PhD?

        No. Of the two male Senior Directors, one has a BA and has been here five years, and the other has a BA and a MA and has been hear ten years. The female managers and directors have been here between three and fifteen years. Half have relevant Master’s degrees; the others have BAs.

        2) specialized skills needed. Does Senior Director run an IT dept of 20 ppl while female Director manage 100 call center reps?

        No. This is a nonprofit, and they all run similar community engagement programs.

        3) Productivity. Size and budget aren’t the only metrics of competence. For example, a more efficient department may need a lower budget (which your company system appears to penalize, depending on how the budget and size categories are defined).

        Yes, the efficiency issue is a problem in how programs are determined. However, it’s not at play between these particular people. The programs are similar, and in any case the most complex is managed by a female Director (who is paid less than the male Senior Directors).

        I have access to the performance ratings for most of these folks, which vary and do not align with the levels and salaries — so, for example, one of the male Senior Directors got the lowest performance rating and one of the female non-Directors (but who manages a program with similar size and complexity) got the highest rating.

        1. Jules the Third*

          Wow.

          Yes, that looks like a clear example of sexual discrimination, with metrics to demonstrate that men are being paid more (20%!) for similar jobs (or that the women are doing higher level jobs) and it looks like a pattern. If I were on a jury for a civil suit about this, I would find for the women in a *heartbeat*.

          How you deal with it depends on the size of the company, how much you are willing to risk, how effective you think you can be, and the laws of your country / state / city. Talking to the lawyer is a good first step.

          Alison’s got several scripts for how to talk to mgmt about this if you think they will be responsive, but from your experience last year, I don’t have confidence in your mgmt chain. If you have HR, and confidence in them, that’s the clear place to go.

          Whoever you talk to, the approach is usually ‘wow, this opens us up to legal problems! We should fix this by raising the titles and wages of the women to parity, and setting pay scales based on clearly definable metrics like reports/budgets, in order to avoid potential liability under a sexual discrimination lawsuit!’ 100% about ‘protecting the company’ and how of *course* the company wants to attract and keep the best talent, no matter their gender.

          If there’s no action (or if you face retaliation), then you can loop in the women who are affected and approach it as a group.

          But you should:
          1) Document *everything* – hard or electronic copies, off site. All this analysis, all emails – have the data available to you if you are fired suddenly
          2) Get your resume’ up to date. Your managers SUCK, and it probably goes higher up.

          Wow.

          1. Anon for Potential Wage Discrimination*

            In case it’s relevant, I’d actually argue that the men are overpaid rather than the women are underpaid (going by the org’s stated standards about what kind of work constitutes which title and therefore salary).

    2. Double A*

      I have no expertise in this area, but if you are a nonprofit and this information got out, it could be damaging from a public relations perspective, I would think. That could also be something you mention as you bring your concerns to HR.

  45. Lalaith*

    I just had a call with a recruiter who suggested that I should put online classes on my resume. I just need a sanity check – does that sound like a good idea? Has anyone else done it? If so, how did you list them? (Some background info: I’ve been out of work for 8 months and only have one freelance/volunteer project to show for myself in that time).

    1. MissMaple*

      Are these classes with any sort of metric/grading or are they toward any type of certificate? I would put them on if you had any sort of accountability to a teacher or professor, but probably not otherwise.

    2. anon 4 now*

      I think it depends on the source of the classes. The better the reputation of the provider, the more likely I would take them into consideration as a hiring manager.

      1. Lalaith*

        Several of them have been through Lynda.com, which I think is pretty reputable. But no, there’s no grade or accountability (as MissMaple asked).

    3. OtterB*

      I think the credibility of the courses matters, but I also think it sounds like a good idea to preemptively answer the “what have you been doing while you’ve been out of work” question with something indicating that you are using the time to polish or add skills.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Depends. Are they skills-based classes? If you’ve taken an HTML or coding class (or web design, Photoshop, etc.) and you’re seeking to move into that field it might make sense. It doesn’t matter if they are online or not, as long as they are from a reputable source and you’ve completed the training (hopefully with demonstrated ability in the skills!).
      For general classes, I would say don’t put on resume. Ditto things like Excel, Word and Powerpoint. It’s kind a given nowadays that you know them if you’re an office-type worker.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Just another thought. When thinking about whether or not to put these non-credit classes on your resume, ask yourself: Is this a class company would pay to send their employees to?

    5. Jules the Third*

      Not unless there’s some industry certification involved, or if they are directly applicable to the job. You can put ‘Have taken 4 classes aimed towards X certification’, or *maybe* put the skill you’ve learned in a skills section, if you are confident you can actually perform based on the class, but you wouldn’t put just the classes.

      Until you get someone else confirming that you actually learned something, online classes are just another unfinished novel.

      1. Windchime*

        Not necessarily. For example, there is the Johns Hopkins Data Science class on Coursera. It definitely not a BA or anything like that, but it’s pretty highly regarded as an introduction to programming in R and data science. I would definitely put something like that on my resume. It wouldn’t make me a data scientist by any stretch of the imagination but it would let a prospective employer know that I at least had an introduction to those concepts.

    6. A Worker Bee*

      I think what the recruiter meant was you should put online classes on your resume to show what you’ve been doing while you’ve been out of work.

  46. The Duke of Coriander and Gomasio*

    I have a 3rd interview for an out of state position, I’m excited!!!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Good luck!! I am mentally preparing myself for an out-of-state job search in 2019 and am so, so nervous about getting interviews. Your success gives me hope!

  47. Forking Great Username*

    I’m in the final month of earning my degree in secondary education. Yesterday the school hosted a panel with HR people from local school districts. Tips on resumes, cover letters, interviews, common mistakes, etc. There was one piece of advice jay gave me pause, so I wanted to run in by the AAM community. The advice was that after applying for a position, you should reach out to the principal of the school, e-mailing them directly to reiterate your interest and attaching your cover letter and resume. We were told this would help us stand out…but will it really help you stand out in a good way? I was a bit skeptical, since I’m sure principals are super busy and may be annoyed by the time spent going through such e-mails.

    1. Forking Great Username*

      *that gave me pause. Autocorrect…the reason I will never complete an application on my phone!

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Not an educator, but a relative of one, so grain of salt here. I believe the way most websites work for school districts is that online apps go straight to HR, so a principal may never see it. If you’re emailing directly to a principal, you have the chance of said principal actually getting to see it and requesting that admin allow you to interview or whatever process the district uses. It may be annoying, yes, but it’s not completely awful advice.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      I have taught middle and high school for 20 years – please don’t do this. Principals are not only super-busy, but our principals doesn’t handle the hiring process- an assistant principal does. Go through the proper channels and I highly recommend going to any district job fairs that you hear about either through your college or the districts themselves. We get a lot of people through those as it provides a chance to meet candidates and prescreen. I’m the special education department chair and I go to some, and we have an assistant principal at all of them.

      Good luck! I love working with secondary education students.

      1. Forking Great Username*

        This is pretty in line with what my instincts were saying, so I’m glad to have it confirmed. Thank you! I will be attending some education job fairs next month.

      2. DBGNY*

        Not in education, but I’d be upset that a prospective hire went over my head and contacted my boss about a job after I’d interviewed them for that role. Don’t do it.

        1. Forking Great Username*

          I certainly have no intention of doing that! Think you may have misunderstood – the recommendation to contact the principal came from someone who works in a local district where the principals are in charge of hiring. Muriel noted that it works differently in her district, which is good to remember – that it’s not a universal thing. But generally (in my area, anyway) contacting the principal wouldn’t be seen as going over anyone’s head.

  48. Anon-gineer (for this)*

    I just found out I’m pregnant and we’re very excited. I’m a long way off from telling folks at work, but I was wondering how others have gone about it when it does come up. I’m a federal contractor, so I’m not sure if it’s a different conversation than what my friends have gone through at their places of work.

    Semi-related, I occasionally have some aspects of my role that involve exposure to chemicals/heavy lifting/etc, that I’ll want to avoid starting immediately. How do I get around doing these things without specifying the reason yet?

    1. Natalie*

      I’m not sure you can avoid telling your boss, at least, if there are specific occupational exposure things you need to avoid. Waiting to share pregnancy is certainly a social convention, but there are always circumstances in which those need to be disregarded.

    2. Forking Great Username*

      I know you’re asking for advice on how to NOT tell your boss right away…but that’s what I did. Of course, it depends on your relationship with your boss, but I knew mine would keep it to himself and be happy for me.

    4. agmat*

      I told coworkers one-on-one during an overnight training session, although only those whom I felt close to (about 10 people). It was a little earlier than I would have liked (about 10 weeks along), but I’m generally in the field and not face-to-face with colleagues, plus I wasn’t going to be drinking during the evening get togethers. I had told my boss earlier than that because I had to avoid certain tasks, too (very occasional chemical exposure).

      My advice is to tell your boss now so that you aren’t tasked with any of the chemical work. It really is easiest to be straight forward, but if you *really* don’t want to tell them (or don’t trust them not to blab) then just say you are dealing with some medical issues where you need to refrain from XYZ activities for awhile. Or you could try discussing your options with HR first.

      I don’t think being a federal contractor makes the conversation that different because I think right now your first goal is to ensure you aren’t exposed to work dangers. But you will want to have conversations later regarding maternity leave, so you’ll need to review how that works in regards to your contract.

    5. Anon-gineer (for this)*

      Thanks everyone, definitely some things to think about. I think I’ll try to hold off having the conversation until second trimester unless anything with chemicals comes up before then. I’m a bit new to my contractor (but not to my job/team, ah the joys of contract changes), so I’ll be the first going through this at my workplace with the new contractor.

    6. Double A*

      I tried to wait until the second trimester, but I ended up telling my boss when I was about 11 weeks along, and I told some of my coworkers before that (like… 8 or 9 weeks) because I needed them to know sometimes I’d need extra support due to nausea, needing to pee all the time, or fatigue. And frankly I figured that if I has a miscarriage, I’d need time to deal with that too, and personally I’m fine with my boss or coworkers knowing that’s what I’m dealing with. Basically, due to the nature of my job, I needed people to know I sometimes might need a little extra support/accommodation/understanding, and it’s made me feel better to know that they know. I’m also in an environment where everyone is super supportive.

      I know it’s kind of convention to wait until the second trimester, but I honestly was like, “I feel so terrible and I really don’t know how to explain this without telling people why! How do people wait for months?” I’m now in the second trimester and… I am only sporadically feeling better >:(

  49. Sara*

    I applied to a job at my friend’s company a couple months ago, interview and didn’t get it. They all seemed like nice people and they said the same thing most people get ‘we liked you, but we decided to go with someone with more qualifications’. That all is fine. But they have another job opening in a different department, and my friend really wants me to apply again. I feel weird about it – I didn’t bomb the interview, but I did get the feeling that the HR person didn’t really ‘get’ me. I feel like I might be setting myself up for failure and I don’t want my friend to look bad by constantly having her recommend me for positions that I’m not going to get. I’m going to table it til I get back from vacation, but I’m not sure what I can do to push past that feeling.

    Has anyone else thought this way?

    1. Jules the Third*

      See the question above, about assumptions that have held you back, for others who have felt this way. You’re not alone, but, well, you’re doing yourself a disservice.

      For this company and position:
      If they said, ‘we liked you’, take them at their word. Assume that they are professionals and that you can trust their statements. If you want to work in that company, in that position, then apply!

      People don’t get jobs all the time, but there are a lot of letters on AAM about people who went back for a second job at the same company and got it. The only way you can be sure to not get it is to not apply.

  50. Almost Violet Miller*

    I’m so angry about how management handled my colleague’s departure. This is just venting…

    Jane’s last day was yesterday and she organised a little get-together after work to say goodbye. She invited the people she worked closely with/shared the same office space, including her manager. (Jane was the office manager/receptionist.) He said he’s not going because he will be traveling, and it’s also against company policy to have a farewell party because those who leave are traitors.

    Then yesterday we gave our little gift to Jane while we were still at work (it was coming from the people she used to share an office with so we wanted to do it before everyone is around for the party) and took a few pictures. This was exactly when her manager, Fergus, was leaving. He looked into our office and said ‘Oh I see this is how you’re working.’

    Fergus is known for making inappropriate comments (that he often intends as jokes) but I feel like this is just terrible behaviour. I knew for a long time that the atmosphere here isn’t the greatest but this crossed yet another line.

    4. Bea*

      Omg we just dealt with a “traitors” remark when our former co-worker was welcomed to an office function because it was preplanned and she had already RSVPed. It soured so many moods. You’re not alone, he’s a jackass

  51. Overeducated*

    At new job. In ramping up phase and definitely don’t have enough work yet, which is normal, and I’m learning interesting stuff. I’m just worried that there are a lot of talks about new plans for divvying up work and where new people see ourselves fitting, and until I’m more involved in actual work I can’t say. Hope I don’t just get stuck with the stuff nobody else wants to do. Any advice?

    There have been a couple of worrisome yellow flags but I don’t want to be too identifiable….

    1. Jules the Third*

      Try to find a piece that’s at least 20hrs / week that is something you like, maybe a stretch, maybe visible. Every job has some stuff no one wants to do, but if half your job is valuable to you and the company, then it makes the rest better.

  52. The Green Lawintern*

    Email etiquette question: if someone emails “Thank you!” to you, do you email back “You’re welcome!” or not reply?

    1. Galatea*

      I usually don’t reply — often in my experience “Thank you!” is more an acknowledgment that the recipient got your message rather than a genuine message of appreciation.

      That being said, for longer and more explicit/personalized thanks (thanks for working on a project/thanks for being a good coworker/thanks for putting in extra time to pull something off), I’ll often write back with a personalized message as well.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I usually don’t reply, nor do I expect replies, especially if the simple “Thank you!” is in response to receiving something, like a report or other deliverable/information. If the email is more, “Thank you so much for the work you did on Project Llama, it looks really terrific,” I might respond.

      I say this as someone who emails “Thank you!” as a confirmation of receipt when it feels appropriate. I never expect a “You’re welcome”.

      1. FD*

        +1

        “Thanks” or “Thank you” alone doesn’t really indicate a response. The same with additional content usually does.

      3. Luna123*

        Same with me — I say “Thanks!” to let people know that I got their email, but I never expect a “You’re welcome” back

    3. Murphy*

      I usually don’t, because I know people get too many emails. (I appreciate the thanks though, even if it’s just confirming receipt.)

    4. Kathleen_A*

      I usually don’t unless I (for whatever reason) want to be sure the person knows I saw that “Thank you.” I usually don’t bother if it’s just those two words, but if it goes on a bit so I can tell that it’s not just a generic thanks, I write back briefly.

    5. Lcsa99*

      Please don’t. It isn’t necessary and just junks up email.

      And please don’t reply all on a thank you unless you are thanking all for the same reason.

      1. Jules the Third*

        Oh dear god, +100000000000000

        I don’t care either way for thanks on my normal job stuff; I appreciate thanks for extra work, mine or others; I hate / loathe / despise thanks to *other* people’s normal job stuff. Especially when it adds about 25% more emails to my day!

    6. zora*

      I don’t reply because our company is big on being Midwest friendly and it leads to a neverending spiral of niceness that we can never extricate ourselves from.
      Thank you!!
      You’re welcome!!
      Really appreciate it!
      Anytime!
      You’re the best!
      Aw, just happy to help!!
      …
      And then we all die (with 5,000 emails in our inboxes)

  53. Galatea*

    How do you push past the immediate knee-jerk assumption of “oh I’m not good enough for this job”?

    I’m looking currently, and I got to my current technical field sort of roundabout — I didn’t study this in school, but I love it and am doing well — and between not necessarily knowing the exact CS Major Lingo and the fact that I don’t have a degree in CS means I keep selling myself short for positions that I realistically would be great at.

    1. NaoNao*

      Remind yourself you don’t have to be 100% perfect match or have sparkling accolades to do a great job. Take a stroll through your best school or professional work, kudos emails, awards, any reminders that you HAVE accomplished to remind yourself that you do have talents and skills.

      Doing well at a job is multi faceted. Some of it *is* expertise. But a lot of it is teamwork, being easy to work with, “street smarts”, ability to work independently and be adaptive, great creative ideas, being flexible, making contributions that are useful, and so on.

    2. Anonygrouse*

      I got into my technical field the same way and have had similar misgivings. Sometimes it helped me to frame applications/interviews as chances for me to learn what those things looked like for the kind of roles I’ve found myself in. So a way to learn what vocabulary I should be prepared for, see what questions they may have about my background and practice how I can spin it, etc. Mentally framing things as practice or research helped me get over my initial hesitation.

      If you’re eager to move on, though, I realize it might not be easy to take such a laissez-faire approach. So I will just add that there are places out there who your background will be not just irrelevant but an actual a selling point! My current boss has said that he actually prefers to hire technical staff who have non-tech work/education backgrounds.

    3. Jules the Third*

      Remind yourself how much you have learned, and how, and that it is a prediction of what you can do at any new job.
      Consciously set your expectations and a level of requirements (<100%!) that you will apply for.
      Per the article linked to my name, on average, men's level of requirements is 60%, women usually look for 100%.
      Print off the list of requirements (NOT the 'good to haves!) and check them off. When you get to 60% (or 80, if you don't feel like stretching), then tell yourself, consciously, "I have a good shot at this job" and apply.

      Sometimes data can help you overcome feelings.

      1. Artemesia*

        I remember my son’s great advice to my daughter when she was considering a promotion but wasn’t sure she had the chops to manage the division. “Would you rather do this and learn how to be a manager, or be managed by some, probably less competent person they will hire to do it if you say no?”

    5. Nesprin*

      There was a great post a couple of days ago: God grant me the self confidence of a mediocre white man.

  54. Juli G.*

    Anyone work for a holdout company that still takes off Good Friday? And if you work somewhere that eliminated a day off for Good Friday, did they make it up to you elsewhere or is it just an abstract victory for diversity*?

    *Said tongue in cheek. Not making people feel uncomfortable with a solely religious holiday is important but then give me my day off elsewhere!

    1. CTT*

      I’m in Tennessee and the state still takes this as a holiday! It’s odd to me having not grown up here, although I’m in grad school and I wasn’t mad about not having an 8:30 class this morning.

    2. Kathleen_A*

      We have never had an official day off on Good Friday, but they very often let us leave early. We haven’t heard yet, so I’ve got my fingers crossed!

    3. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      The company we work very closely with is closed today AND Monday. I am completely non-religious, but man, I wouldn’t object to a long weekend, no matter what the reason!

      1. Kathleen_A*

        I am religious, but alas, I went to church last night (Maundy Thursday) and can’t in good conscience say I’m going to church this afternoon. So I just have to hope TPTB decide to give us all the benefit of the doubt.

    4. Canadian Teapots*

      That’s so odd to me. Here, it’s been a statutory holiday for over 30 years (stat = legally required paid holiday for all full-time employees, and AFAIK cannot be deducted from a pool of vacation days)

    5. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      My office does a floating holiday and says you can take it for MLK day or Good Friday (although I think if you push it, you can just take it as an extra vacation day)… I took MLK because the rest of my team was planning on taking today, so I’m the only person in my department today. I have permission to close down a bit early this afternoon.

      2. Totally Minnie*

        We have a floating holiday too, but most people end up using it for their birthday.

    6. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      Since this is a country that has Catholicism has its “official” religion, Good Friday is a national holiday and you get the day off even if you’re not religious. Nobody complains since it’s traditional to take it as mini vacations and go somewhere to have some rest.

    7. ainomiaka*

      my work has government skeleton holidays. Technically if you take off Good Friday (or any of few other religious holidays) you have to promise to work a different one of those. This year we got special leave though, so I don’t know.

    8. Kathleen_A*

      I just found out that we’re closing at 2. Yay! It’s never been an official holiday anyplace I’ve worked, including here, but they usually let us go a little early, and this year is no exception.

      I’m not going to complain about some guilt-free hours off, but I don’t understand why they can never give us any warning. I have a bunch of new coworkers, and they were all asking me about getting time off, and I had to keep saying, “Well, they usually do, but …..”

      Oh, well. Time off is time off.

      1. Windchime*

        I’ve not ever had Good Friday as an official day off. My boss will often have us work a half-day on the day before a holiday weekend, but that hasn’t typically included getting off early on Good Friday.

    9. London Calling*

      UK here, both Friday and Monday are bank holidays but not automatic days off, depends on your employer. Sunday is one of the two days in the year when all shops are shut.

    11. mrs_helm*

      Our company has a few “floater holidays” for people to use as they please, and nails down about 8 others. It’s not solely a diversity choice, but that is a factor.

    12. Elena*

      I worked for a company that had this as “spring holiday” and it was welcome, since it interrupted the long drought between MLK and Memorial day.

    13. Sarah_with_a_H*

      I work in Louisiana and we have it off as a normal holiday. I am not from here originally, so I still find it odd, but I’ll take it!

    14. Eye of Sauron*

      The industry I’m in usually takes (Utilities) GF as a pd holiday, my company is not a utility so we don’t, but if you are in a role that supports the utility you are encouraged (or required depending on your job) to take it as a floating holiday (we get 2 floating holidays a year, designed for days like GF where it’s not practical to work or as an extra vacation day).

    15. zora*

      A few companies in SF are closed today, which surprised me. But some companies are big on giving a lot of holidays for that whole work/life balance thing. Our company on the other hand is super stingy on holidays, so I’m not surprised we don’t get it.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Today is also a day that a lot of businesses (and the state government) are observing Cesar Chavez Day.

        1. zora*

          oh that’s right!!! I totally forgot about that, and just assumed it was for Good Friday. Haha, I’m dumb!

    16. FD*

      I’ve never worked anywhere that takes it off–I was surprised when someone asked if the bank (downstairs) was going to be closed. The schools are closed, but that’s it.

    17. Can't Sit Still*

      Traffic was light today, so obviously lots of people have the day off. I’ve never had Good Friday as a holiday, but our offices in Europe are closed today.

      1. Juli G.*

        Yes, that too!

        I grew up near where my company is located and I was NINETEEN before I knowingly came across anyone Jewish so i doubt they’ve ever given time off for Passover or any of the fall High Holidays .

    19. Anxa*

      I am so happy we don’t have Good Friday off!

      I work hourly and every holiday closure costs me about $100. I have plenty of unpaid time off when were closed anyway.

    20. Idgaf*

      This is our first year not having Good Friday off. They gave us another holiday off to replace it though! Most people seemed to take PTO today and many people here are still complaining about being here today.

      1. Juli G.*

        Grr… they eliminated here about a decade ago and I would be thrilled with any other day off. I still resent losing a benefit!

    22. Totally Minnie*

      I’m public sector and my municipality doesn’t do Good Friday. I took an hour of vacation time and lumped it in with my lunch break to go to services.

    23. AcademiaNut*

      I… have to work Saturday (official government work day).

      I’m working in a culturally non-Christian country, though. Easter is basically invisible here, but we get next Wednesday – Friday off (Tomb Sweeping, Children’s day, plus Friday because we had to work Saturday). They do the compensation day thing when the stat holiday is on a Tuesday or Thursday.

    25. Akcipitrokulo*

      Bank holiday in UK – so most people outside retail & services are off! Same on Easter Monday.

      (Scotland only officiallly gets one)

  55. Curious Cat*

    I’m a new, proud owner of a 9 month old cat as of Wednesday, and I can tell I’ll struggle a little at the start figuring out how to balance work & being a pet owner. Any advice for being a strong worker and a good pet owner at the same time? (I work roughly 8:30-5:30 every day, but technically expected to be available on email at all times).

    1. Kathleen_A*

      Well, the thing about cats is that they really do take care of themselves for the most part. I’m sure there are needy, clingy cats out there, but even my neediest cat still wanted (heck, demanded) a fair amount of alone time. Aside from food and water and a nice clean litter box, just make sure your new cat has room to roam around, things to jump up on (that he’s *allowed* to jump up on) and a window to look out of, and he’ll probably be fine. Even the most cuddly and people-loving cats lead a somewhat mysterious lives of their own, so you really don’t have to worry much.

      1. Curious Cat*

        I’ve just been thinking about the idea of taking care of something other than myself & having to think about another living thing’s needs and have been a little worried! But you’re totally right…part of the reason I’ve gotten a cat over a dog is due to their independence.

      2. Jules the Third*

        +1 on this.

        Also, cats sleep, like, 16 hours a day. Well, maybe not a 9mo one. But even the most attached cat we had, who would wait for Mr. Jules at the door or follow him on a walk like a dog, only went to the door when it was time for him to come home. She spent most of the day sleeping / playing / being the boss.

        Food 2x/day, clean water always, room to roam, high spaces / safe windows to explore – she’ll be fine.

        If you do have to do email a lot while home, it would be worthwhile to find a way to let her have lap-time while you are on the computer.

    2. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Aww, congratulations! I have to say that I’ve never had any issues with working full time and having cats, but maybe there are needier cats out there? Mine seemed satisfied to sleep all day while I was gone and then get cuddles and playtime when I got home.

      1. Curious Cat*

        Thank you, I’m very excited!! He is a bit needier in the sense that he wants a whole lot of pets and attention (I WFH’d yesterday to spend the day with him), but today’s my first day in the office with him at home. Just a new pet owner being worried! Thanks for the reassurance.

        1. Kathleen_A*

          He’ll almost certainly figure out a cattish schedule of his own, of napping from Xtime to Ytime in the bedroom, moving to that nice sunny spot on the back of the couch in the late morning, and then moving upstairs for a little playtime with toys and then another nap in that other nice sunny spot in the afternoon. At least that’s the impression I get when I take a day off during the week. Martha (my current cat) always kind of gives the impression of “Oh, hey, it’s nice to see you, so I will certainly make some extra time for you in my schedule. But yes, I do definitely have a schedule.”

          1. EmilyG*

            Yes, I used to have a super cuddly and person oriented cat who took her Big Nap between 1 and 5pm. This was in addition to various smaller naps at other points during the day, but she didn’t want to interact with you during her Big Nap. I used to have a job where I could stop home for lunch and her response was “Dude, why are you here? I am going to take my Big Nap now.” Even though after work, she always ran to the door to be picked up and purred, and spent the rest of the evening following me around. And she used to sit on my lap during breakfast.

            I currently have two 9-month-old kittens myself and they are very energetic! Not right when I get home, but a few minutes after (after I read the mail and stuff like that), I play with them for a while. That way they don’t get overstimulated and bitey.

    3. Galatea*

      Congrats!

      I’ve never had a kitten, so things might be different until your cat gets a little older and more calm, but my adult cat has worked out his own schedule — cats sleep A TON, so he naps through my work day and then comes to hang out when I get home.

      It’s funny, actually; the first time I worked from home I was all excited to hang out with my buddy, and he was into it for an hour or two, but then I guess my working cut into his naptime so he left the room to go sleep somewhere less busy.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        Sure. He made some accommodation because he’s fond of you, but you know, he could only clear X amount of time on his schedule. :-)

        2. Galatea*

          Oh yeah, he straight up canceled is 9 AM windowsill nap, but unfortunately his 10:30 comfy chair nap, the 1 PM post-poop hallway sprint, and 3 PM favorite box nap couldn’t be moved :/ better luck next time, human!

      2. Curious Cat*

        Ha! That’s great to know that he’ll chill out and do his own thing. He’s definitely rambunctious and enjoys running around and knocking things over (oy vey), so I’m hoping my room isn’t destroyed when I get back! But I am excited for when he eventually reaches adulthood and calms down a bit :) (although I’ll enjoy his kittenhood for now!)

    4. anon..*

      My two boys are super needy and constantly want to be cuddled. We leave them from around 8:30am – 6pm. I think the fact that there are two of them helps – they’re brothers from the same litter, so they get along and keep each other company. It makes us feel less guilty leaving them home alone!

      Getting a second cat can certainly be a nice thing to do for your kitty….if done right. If you want to go down that road, speak to a vet about when/how to introduce a second cat.

      1. Curious Cat*

        Ah, I definitely can’t take on a second cat! I’m just able to afford this one (super high rent costs get added on with a pet, unfortunately), but I hope one day (many years) down the road I can take a second!

    5. Beth*

      I second everyone saying cats will entertain themselves. A couple of things you might look into, though: if you occasionally work late, a food timer bowl (you put food in and close the lid, it automatically opens after x hours–mine was about $20 on Amazon). There are also treat-dispensing toys (like plastic balls with holes in them, kibble or small treats fall out when your cat bats it around) that can give your cat a little activity during the day–though since your cat is so young, it probably is active enough on its own. But mostly I’d just make sure the cat has some favorite places to nap, some places where it can sit to look out windows, and that you’ve moved any potential hazards out of the way.

      1. Jules the Third*

        Or some of those toys you hang from a door knob, or stuffed toys – my cats liked those when they were younger.

    6. periwinkle*

      Cats + home office = more assistance than you really wanted to have when writing emails

      I have four cat beds in my office, two on the desk, one under the desk, and one to the side but within easy petting reach. Beds and boxes (especially boxes) are very helpful in keeping the cat off your keyboard. I’m working at home today with three of those beds occupied – they’re happy, they get petted on occasion, and I can work unimpeded.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Not really the best idea but part of my solution was to let my critters sleep on the bed with me at night, so they had that togetherness as a bit of an anchor for their day.

      From what I have seen letting them sleep on the bed can make it harder to board them, as they don’t understand where the bed got off to. I have a dog now that I cannot leave with anyone, so sleeping on the bed is a non-issue.
      And wouldn’t ya know it, he doesn’t care if sleeps on the bed or not. sigh.

    8. Red Reader*

      I work from home full time with four cats and two dogs, and the most I ever have to rassle with is when the younger dog wants to take her half of the chair out of the middle. (And then I pick her up and scootch her over to her side and sit back down.) otherwise they’re all pretty self-maintaining.

    9. Double A*

      Heck, I’ll leave my cats alone for long weekend! Just put out extra food and water and maybe an extra litter box. This only works if your cat can free feed, but IMO that’s a good reason to free feed them from the start. (I wouldn’t leave a cat alone for that long if I just adopted them, and I feel better about it because my cats are buddies, so I know if worst comes to worst they can entertain each other). Cats are great because they’re low maintenance, for the most part.

      I have a dog now and I’m like… dammit, I have to be home every freakin’ 6 hours.

    10. boop the first*

      I think cats DO get lonely/bored so expect a bit of mischief at the least. When we got our first cat, my husband worked weekdays and I worked weekends so she was never truly alone. That is, until my husband was out of town for a weekend…

      I came home to a catnip bag torn open, its contents spread across the carpet. Random objects were knocked over and dragged around the apartment. She took an entire new loaf of bread, tore it out of the bag, ate a good deal of it and spread the rest of it in large chunks into a huge pile under the dining table. There’s no way this wasn’t an intentional slight!

  56. AP No Noir*

    I need to help an employee get organized. Right now she just has piles of paper everywhere and her work has suffered. Can anyone provide organization tips/examples?

    1. Sapphire*

      If it’s a paper issue where she can’t find anything, would being in a paperless environment help her? I know that for me, I hate having to keep papers unless they’re posted somewhere, and so scanning the important things so I can get rid of them was most helpful.

    2. London Calling*

      Plastic folders and post-it notes have been invaluable on many occasions. Folders once the paperwork is sorted and a post it note stuck or stapled on the front to say what is within and if necessary what needs to be done with it and when.

    3. Eye of Sauron*

      Yikes… we might need a little more detail as to what the papers are.

      Are we talking about actionable papers (Invoices to be processed, orders to be entered, papers to be graded, etc)
      Papers whose action has been completed (The dreaded To File pile or To Shred)
      Notes, that don’t need action
      Notes that do need action
      Papers that shouldn’t have been printed in the first place (things like email or otherwise available electronically)

      I think in general terms you need to help the employee figure out their own system instead of setting up one that works for you. I’m a firm believer that no one size fits all and people need to figure it out for themselves to be more likely to stick to something.

      But again high level, first things first sort like with like come up with a couple of broad categories and have the employee do a sort. Then decide a home for each bucket…. Actionable items get placed in a folder with the oldest ones first and newest ones last filled from the back. Notes non actionable end up in a binder by subject. Notes Actionable added to one ongoing task list in a folder or in electronic form.

      Then have the employee do what has been decided for each pile, then have the employee set aside 10 min per day at the end to maintain.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I like to use mini-binder clips instead of paper clips. Paper clips get bent and less useful over time but I never pay attention when clipping papers together. So my papers were falling apart. I got mini-binder clips and now things stay where I put them.

      Go through the basics with her. Does she have a contact list? My list is so long I needed a folder. I got a bright green plastic folder. I can always find my contact list now. (I get given paper lists and it is too time consuming to put in the computer. I will get a new list on frequent basis with many changes so updating is a nightmare.) I went through and gathered other similar information putting each in a different color plastic folder. (You can get them at the dollar store.) When I need X info, I know to go to the purple folder and Y info is in the red folder.)

      This one is silly. A nice pen helps me. I just enjoy a pen that works smoothly and it seems to help everything down stream as I take better notes, I label things more etc. Be aware that odd things connect in odd ways for people.

  57. The curator*

    Checking in from Japan. I knew I would gave trouble adjusting to the time but not this badly.

    Any tips?

    1. Parenthetically*

      Some people may disagree with me here, but I never have jet-lag for more than a day: NO NAPS. Stay awake until a reasonable bedtime whatever it takes. Absolutely no caffeine after noon local time, and take it easy with booze as well. Spend as much time outside during the day as possible and keep moving. Eat food that will fuel your body, not just treats, whatever that means for you. Stay hydrated!

      1. Kathleen_A*

        It takes me at least three days to get over a serious case of jetlag (serious = 3 or more hours). It didn’t use to, but I’ve become much less tolerant as I age.

    2. SF chic*

      Stay up during the day.

      Take a small dose of melatonin (1-2mg is plenty) at dinner time.

      When you get up in the morning, get in the sunlight as soon as possible. Quick morning walk. Eat breakfast by the window. Get out for a mid-day walk in the sun as well.

      Cut all screen time for 2 hours before bed.

      1. She Who Needs a Username*

        I agree. Do what you can to get to sleep/ wake up on Japan time. Maybe sleep a couple extra hours but no naps.

    3. Kathenus*

      Two things that help me. I change my watch to the local time as soon as I’m on the plane so that I’m beginning to think in that time frame from the beginning. And I go out of my way to never think about what time it is at home. I think some people almost psych themselves into jet lag by frequently thinking “it’s 3 am at home” versus immediately adjusting to the new time zone and living fully in it.

      Also echo Parenthetically on no naps – for me it means trying to power through until normal night time in the new location and then going to bed. I’m usually more tired than usual for a day or two but I never get any real jet lag, including when I’ve traveled literally halfway around the world more than once.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      Keep a normal schedule as much as possible. If you absolutely need a nap because you’re so tired you’re dizzy, lie down for half an hour to an hour, set multiple alarms, and when you get up, splash your face with cold water, have a cold drink, and shine a bright light (like a desk lamp) on your face for a while (with your eyes closed). I find this is often enough to keep me going.

      I like to take a Class A antihistamine (the kind that make you sleepy) before going to bed. It’s not enough to knock me out, but helps me stay asleep one I’m down.

      It’s too late for you this trip, but on the first day I try to stay awake until a normal sleeping time (8pm or later) in local time, even when I’m exhausted. Then I crash hard, and sleep through until the next morning. The second night is usually the worst for insomnia, though.

      I find west coast North America to Asia to be worse than the other way around, and Europe to Asia worse than Asia to Europe. Asia to East Coast NA sucks no matter which direction you’re going.

      1. curator*

        Thank you everyone. I did have a little caffeine today to stay up for the evening. I appreciate the advice and will try to power through tomorrow. Official meetings and work do not start until Monday. Spent today mostly on prep.

    5. Emilie*

      My sister lived in New Zealand and managed to stay jetlagged for several weeks when she flew back home to Europe. She napped whenever she felt like, and for as long as she felt like. So, yeah… Don’t do that. I have no personal advice, since I don’t like flying, but I thought I’d let you in on my sisters bad jetlag management just to let you know, that no matter how badly you feel like you’re handling jetlag, you’ll never be as bad at it as my sister.

  58. Anon for this*

    I understand that senior person in a position can he asked to train someone junior. But how much training is too much? I am tasked with training someone super green and new to the field. It’s taking time away from my own work. We have another person coming in in 2 weeks. I am suppose to train him too. It’s shouldn’t be as hard (he is experienced and not green) but we don’t have good process documentation so everything is a brain dump. We have one more position still open. At the rate I’m going, I can’t finish my projects and/or be working 80 hours a week because I am busy with my day to day and training all the new employees. What should I do?!

    1. fposte*

      Talk to your manager; come with a proposal in hand about what you’ll do, how long you can give to training, and when you’ll conclude.

      1. Anon for this*

        I am trying my hand at process documentation but the resistance is massive. For someone to be competent at what they do, it could take years. If we had better process mapping, this could work out. It’s not. Plus, I was added to more projects because the newbie is working on them to ‘supervise’.

        What kind of training am I expected to give this person? I’ve always had junior person trained by the manager. The last junior person that was trained by another senior person quits under 6 months because they did the ‘minimal’ training. Rinse and repeat. And the junior person couldn’t not get get his feet under himself. So now we hired a new person and it gets assigned to me. I don’t want to set my junior to fail, but this is a bigger undertaking than these people realize.

        1. fposte*

          Right–so come prepared to state “This is what I *can* do.” I don’t know what kind of training you’re expected to give, and maybe they don’t either–so create your own proposal about what’s going to happen as far as you’re concerned.

    2. Imaginary Number*

      I think you answered your problem for yourself. “We don’t have good process documentation.”

      Take the time to document what you did with the first person, focusing on those tasks that don’t really require one-on-one interaction to learn. Use that document as a starting point for all future training.

      I created one for a program I was in and we treat it like a living document where each new person gets trained makes modifications as they find out things that are outdated or new information becomes relevant.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        Have the trainee do the process documentation as they learn. It’s good training and it takes a lot of the work off your hands.

    3. Jules the Third*

      Can your manager help with the training at all?
      Can you spread the training out at all?
      * Try to find 1 – 2 basic, repetitive tasks that the new people can get up to speed on quickly
      and let them have those tasks, taking them off your plate entirely.
      * Have the current person train the newer person, with you in the room writing / editing
      the documentation based on their interactions. Do this for short sessions, 1 – 4 hrs / week,
      for multiple weeks, with documentation published after each session. Then require them
      to do another session with docs but without you, writing down any questions or errors.
      This will keep them productively busy but give you a break.

  59. Parenthetically*

    A whinge:

    I applied to a new school this week. I have ten years of teaching experience, a Master’s in my subject area, and am closer to 40 than 30. When I asked a friend who worked there if I should address the cover letter to Fergus or Jane, she replied, “Both, but we’re very formal, so probably stick with Mr. Jones and Mrs. Smith.” I HATE feeling compelled to call age peers by last names in private correspondence. In front of students, absolutely. But in an email? Grrrrrrr.

    1. Pollygrammer*

      I can’t imagine addressing a cover letter by first name even to someone I knew well. Applications should always be formal, no matter how advanced in your career you are.

      I think you might want to examine why this bothers you so very much. Are you anxious about feeling beholden to people you don’t perceive as your professional superiors?

    2. StressedButOkay*

      Do you know if this is how they correspond in all communications or if it’s because this is a cover letter situation? Because while I feel you if this is how they communicate all the time, applying is a different beast. I’ve always addressed cover letters and such by being as formal as possible.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      I just applied for a new teaching job and can’t imagine putting the first name (and in this case, I actually know the person to whom I am sending my application and she is younger than I am). It’s just such an ingrained professional convention. And I’m almost 50 with a Master’s and 20 years of teaching experience. Perhaps there is a specific reason this bothers you?

      1. Parenthetically*

        I’m bristling a little at the idea of having to use “Mr” and “Mrs” every single day at the job — as they do there, even when there are no students around.

        It also strikes me as overly formal because Jane asked me, through my friend who worked there, to apply after the two chatted one day about my subject expertise. This was a “send a resume to a friend of a friend” rather than “send a resume to a Very Important Boss-Type Lady” situation in my mind and it jarred me to have to address her formally.

        1. Jules the Third*

          Soooooo – maybe this isn’t the right environment for you? Alison pushes a lot that job apps and interviews are a 2-way street, that you’re checking whether you would be happy in a company while the company is checking whether you can do the job. Maybe this should be your yellow flag?

          1. Parenthetically*

            Yeah, I’m not AT ALL sure about the school, but I’m going to do the interview anyway — fortunately, I don’t really care very much if I get the job or not so I’m fully planning on seeing it as a chance for me to interview them to see if it’s compatible with my preferences. Seems silly not to, on the off chance it would work. I have a couple of other good options — my fallback position is still something I’d enjoy and am quite happy to do.

        2. JeanB in NC*

          It doesn’t actually sound like the school is a good match for you if you are already “bristling” at just the thought of formality. Maybe you should investigate the school culture a little more and make sure you’ll be happy there.

    4. Julianne*

      My gut reaction is that this is weird, but I think part of that is that hiring in my current district (and in most districts in my area) is VERY centralized, to the point that candidates apply to any vacancy using the exact same application, including a single resume and cover letter – so I wouldn’t be addressing the cover letter to Mrs. Smith at Adams Elementary, because the same one cover letter associated with my applicant profile is also going to be sent to Mrs. Jones at Bradley Elementary and Mr. Richards at Chittick Elementary when I apply to positions at those schools.

      When I think more about it, first names do feel very familiar, but Mrs. Lastname feels stodgy. So I have no actual advice.

  60. DietCokeHead*

    I am having a surgical procedure next week on Friday to remove a kidney stone and I’m completely freaked out. When I asked the doctor about recovery, he said one to three weeks depending on how the procedure goes.

    I went to my manager and she had hr give me the fmla and short term disability paperwork for my doctor and said to take it to my doctor at my next appointment, which will actually be the surgery. I called the doctor’s office and apparently there is a person who handles all this for the clinic. I dropped everything off yesterday and was told that it takes 7 to 10 business days to process. Now I feel really dumb for not dropping this off sooner and freaked out that I won’t have the paperwork back by next Friday.

    Also, I’m freaked out by the recovery. Does a weeks recovery time really mean I should be off work for a week? Or should I just be off that Friday and then back on Monday. Hoping maybe someone here has some advice to share?

    1. Intel Analyst Shell*

      I would bug your DR office to have it done sooner. Before I went out on maternity leave my OBGYN filled out my FMLA paperwork in about 15 minutes during my appointment. Now I’m sure my DR has filled out FMLA paperwork for childbirth a billion times but still, 7-10 days seems ridiculously long.

      And I have no advice on recovery, my kidney stone passed on it’s own. Good luck though!

    2. fposte*

      STD is a different animal that plays by its own rules based on the specific policy, but you and your employer can agree to make your FMLA retroactive; drop a line to HR to see if they’d be willing to do that if the paperwork isn’t processed in time. Wouldn’t hurt to ask if that can work for STD as well.

      1. SF chic*

        +1

        But chances are incredibly high that your recovery will be very very fast with very little discomfort. Remember to ask the doctor what to expect, specifically, when to call if you have have issues/concerns, and what specifically to take for pain. And take it!!

        You will be fine.

        1. DietCokeHead*

          I’m hoping I won’t even need the STD but my manager wanted me to get it started just in case. I’m thinking positive, stretchy thoughts that the doctor is able to do everything in one swoop and I won’t have to go under general anesthesia twice.

    3. zora*

      I had surgery for a similar kidney issue, and I felt SO much better after the surgery was done. The surgery part was honestly the easiest part of the whole issue! You will be okay! If you are feeling crappy or uncomfortable, just keep reminding yourself that this is so temporary. A day is so short in the grand scheme of things, you will feel better before you know it.

      But it definitely took over 48 hours before I really felt like all the anesthesia was really out of my system. And I would be prepared to take off at least a couple of days the next week, don’t try to go back to work on Monday if you don’t have to. I felt so much better within a couple of days, but I would still get really tired in the middle of the day. Your body is doing a lot of healing, and I didn’t have the stamina I usually have to make it through a normal day. Plan to take at least a couple of days to just rest and drink lots of fluids and take it easy. The faster you try to push yourself, the longer you will take to get your stamina back.

      You don’t necessarily have to plan to take the whole week off, but I would definitely give yourself some breathing room, and really listen to your body and how you are feeling and err on the side of resting and taking it easy. Don’t be freaked out, you will feel better soon!!

      1. zora*

        And I’m assuming, like mine, that yours will be an endoscopic surgery, so I really didn’t have to take much pain medicine after the surgery, I had a lot less pain once the procedure was over.

        1. DietCokeHead*

          Oh my gosh, thank you so much for sharing your experience! That is so helpful! I had been feeling like being off work afterwards was excessive and self indulgent, so it really helps to hear that it really isn’t. Part of my freakout out is being caused by thinking that when the paperwork actually gets to the doctor, he would look at it and say ‘Pshaw! She had this done on Friday and should be back to work on Monday! After all, all she does is sit at a desk!’

          It also didn’t help that for some dumb reason I brought no one with me to the initial appointment. I don’t know what I was thinking – that I would go from 2 er visits with excruciating pain to being told to drink more water?

          1. zora*

            Awww, it’s okay, don’t beat yourself up for that! When you’re in pain and not feeling well, it’s that much harder to think straight. You are doing the best you can!

            And if you work for people who are at ALL reasonable, they will not expect you to come back to work on Monday after having surgery!! Doctors know that everyone is different. Some people might be able to go back to work Monday feeling fine, others might have a reaction to the anesthesia or something else, and need a couple more days. The doctor DEFINITELY doesn’t want you to push yourself too hard and then end up back in the ER so he has to deal with you again! ;o)

            Try not to freak out, and just listen to your body and take care of yourself. In a month or so you will be totally back to normal and all of this will be a distant memory! ;o)

          2. Totally Minnie*

            It’s absolutely not self indulgent to take a week off from work after surgery, even if it’s minor. I totally understand feeling guilty about being away from work, but it’s important that you give your body the time to really, fully heal after the procedure.

            And there’s a reason that doctors usually give you a range of time instead of an exact number of days you’ll be out. Every human body is different, and some people react in different ways to medications and procedures. Give yourself at least a few days to rest and recover, and then check in with your doctor before you go back to work to make sure you’re really ready.

    4. Undine*

      How long it takes definitely depends on the nature of the procedure & how you react personally. For me, for major procedures (incisions with anesthesia), the time they tell you is the optimistic time, but other people may bounce back faster. Really gauge yourself — I once went into work too soon after a procedure. I made it in fine, and then nearly fainted halfway through the day & had to get someone to drive me home.

      However, if you can work from home, you can still be productive. Being in the house means you don’t have the travel time and can take rests when you need to. Then you can work when you are feeling strong.

      1. DietCokeHead*

        I haven’t been under general anesthesia since I was about 12 and I really have no memory about how I recovered. All these unknowns for me!

        I’m not sure if working from home would be an option for me. It’s not widely done at the company I’m working for and I believe the company policy prohibits any hourly employee from working frim home (I’m hourly).

        I definitely hear you on the not pushing yourself. When this started, I had went to the er on Tuesday. I took Wednesday off and then thought I could attend the mandatory all staff company meeting on Thursday. I made it to lunch and my manager told me that when I left my face was grey and she wondered if she should have stopped me from driving home. Oh well. At least I didn’t get written up for missing the meeting.

    5. GuitarLady*

      I had an outpatient kidney stone surgery last Jan – no cutting, they put in a tube and sucked the bugger out, and left a stent in me for about 2 weeks after. I had a rough time the day of the surgery, they claimed I would be able to go right home but I wound up being there for 8 or 9 hours afterwards and getting cathed because I could not “go” on my own. Then I was totally unable to get up for the 2 days after other than going to the bathroom and getting a snack. I am self-employed so I kept my schedule light the week after, and I am glad I did, because I was just physically exhausted for the whole week after that experience. Depending on how much your commute is or how intense your job is, I would try to plan half-days or working from home, or maybe only doing 2 or 3 days that week. I wasn’t bedridden, but working at all took all my spoons! I felt much better after a week, and felt totally back to normal as soon as they took the stent out. Good luck!!!
      (Also, based on your username, you and I might have gotten the stone for the same reason – drinking only Diet Coke and never water. I have switched to seltzer water and decaf iced tea and have been stone-free since!!!! This last one was my 4th)

      1. DietCokeHead*

        Ouch! Thanks for sharing your experience! It sounds very much like what the doctor has planned for me although lasers and blasting the stone are also in the plan. Oh goody.

        I do love the Diet Coke but I have tried to cut back and drink more water. I definitely would prefer this to be my first and only kidney stone experience.

        1. valentine*

          Your discharge orders may include no prolonged sitting and medication may stop you working. The key, though, is your doctor has to clear you to return to work, so they’ll probably ask you to make an appointment for at least x weeks following surgery. If you really feel like you’re ready to return earlier, you can ask, but the best part about following the instruction is that, if anything goes wrong, you’ll know it wasn’t down to cutting short your recovery.

    2. Totally Minnie*

      I would rather see a 1.5 page resume than a resume full of padding that doesn’t apply to the position I’m hiring for.

  62. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    A little sad this week is coming to a close. This, honestly, has been one of the best weeks I’ve had at my job for a while.

    Why? Boss and the two drama llamas were gone. Things ran SO MUCH SMOOTHER. Boss is a super nice person, just a lousy manager.

    I’m not looking forward to next week when they’re all back.

  63. Amy Farrah Fowler*

    I’m just curious if anyone else has worked at a company that operates like mine. I know Alison frequently talks about how you should never give notice early unless you KNOW your place of employment is one that will handle long notice periods well. I’ve been at my job for about a year now (and not planning on leaving), and they actually go out of their way to make long notice periods the norm and about twice a year schedule meetings with employees to ask about their future plans, whether they’re happy in their role, and whether they can commit to staying through the next busy season. It’s such a breath of fresh air and I really love that they do that, but it just seems so different than any other job I’ve ever had.

    1. OtterB*

      We’re a small not-for-profit related to higher education, so we tend to have some norms similar to academia. There have been a few people who left with standard two-week notice, but that tends to feel short, and several months of notice aren’t unusual for things like retirement or leaving to go back to grad school.

    2. zora*

      In the nonprofit sector I used to be in, people were experts in the field and it was a very small world, so people often gave 2-3 months notice since it took a while to get replacements in. And they were usually going to another place where we were still all working together, so it wasn’t really like they were leaving.

      In my current company, lower level employees only give 2 weeks, but the most senior leaders give long notice because it allows time to transition their responsibilities.

    3. Jules the Third*

      My fortune 100 tech co is fine with long notices and pushes career development hard. It’s seen as a way to keep talent in the company and develop skills, even if they’re not in your dept anymore.

    4. Mirth & Merry*

      This makes me laugh because someone just left giving a two month notice and the company just goes about business as usual… mostly because they didn’t want to believe he was leaving. So they definitely are great about long notices! hehe.

    5. Al Lo*

      Mine is like that. We’re a non-profit that runs on the academic year, and it’s very common for people who will be moving on to let us know in about February for the following September. There are exceptions, of course, because life happens, but it’s always preferable for us to know with as much notice as possible. Because of the nature of our programming, it would be highly unlikely for someone to be pushed out early — they would finish the year, and then hand over to someone else for the next one.

    6. Akcipitrokulo*

      Normal around here is 1 month – our company has 2 months. Virtually everyone gives the full notice, and it works well. The only downside is that it makes finding a new job harder as while they’ll generally be OK with one month, I’m a bit worried about two (I may be looking for entirely not-job-related reasons in the next few months). But it’s good, there’s a good handover period, and it gives time to arrange a good send off!

      Last year I was thinking of relocating and big boss was looking at some expensive training for me – I told him my rough plans as I felt I wanted him to know before spending budget. Note that this is *NOT* something I generally think people should do!!! Anyway he said that my future plans have nothing to do with how he helps with personal development now, and don’t worry about it. But I do have a spectacularly wonderful big boss, and if you don’t know yours is that great, don’t even think about it!

  64. Jessi*

    A while ago I posted while floundering about what to do about my job/visa situation. A couple of posters told me to talk to my boss.

    I did and mentioned how panicky I was getting about being 12 weeks away from my visa running out, and was gifted an entire month off :) Just goes to show that speaking up is an excellent thing! Since then, contracts have sorted themselves out and I have been offered another year (and a new visa) but that month really gave me space to breath, and not panic! Thanks to everyone who helped me out

  65. anon mom*

    Maybe this is more of a relationship question than a job one, but it’s job-centered, so here goes: how reasonable is it to ask your spouse to get a job that is more beneficial to the family than the one they have? And how does one go about this? My husband has a sort of eclectic set of professional skills that don’t line up with a clear career path. He’s also had a hard time moving up, salary-wise. Right now he has a job with a long commute that puts the daycare pickup burden on me, he makes about half of what I do, and he hates his job. I would be completely fine with the former two if he loved his job, but honestly it’s stressful on me to hear day in and out how awful his job is when it is also somewhat burdensome on the family. If he could find something that was any combination of closer/more flexible hours/paid more/enjoyable (even just ONE of those!), I think it would have a huge positive impact on our family. I also don’t want to burden him with more stress, but as we’re expecting our second child, the financial/logistical stress of two kids is mounting for me. Any and all suggestions of how to navigate this would be appreciated!

    1. Intel Analyst Shell*

      Talk to your husband? My husband was at Toxic Job for about 4 years before we got married, after about a year of marriage I told him he could do better and needed to job hunt. He did and found a job he LOVES with better pay and benefits. I think the trick is to frame it in a “you’re so much better than that place and worth so much more” and not in an “do better at supporting our family” way. (Not that you are framing it that way, but I could see it coming across that way to some.)

    2. Buckeye*

      I could have written most of this myself! My husband does not enjoy his job and would much prefer to work in area that would use his degree at least in some aspect (it isn’t a degree that necessarily lends itself to immediate employment in a predetermined field.) We’re also expecting our second child.

      I think it depends on your relationship and how your husband operates. Mine gets overwhelmed at the thought of job searching, so when I have time I do some Indeed searches for him and share what I find to see what he thinks. He’s less overwhelmed if he’s looking at a list of 3-4 jobs rather than a database of thousands.

      However, this is giving you more work when you’re already stressed. Maybe you could just give him some job searching tips? If he isn’t job searching, maybe you could frame it as “I’m worried about your unhappiness at work. I think if found another job elsewhere that had X, Y, or Z, you would be more fulfilled, which is something that you deserve.” This may make the conversation easier than if you said “Your work situation is stressing me out and you need to find something else” because this approach might make him defensive.

    3. Parenthetically*

      I think everything from “Right now he has a job” to “is mounting for me” could be said, in different words, TO your husband. “You’re miserable, and I hate that; how can I support you in finding work that doesn’t suck the life out of you AND take up a zillion hours a week AND pay you a pittance?” is a perfectly reasonable and good thing to say to a partner!

      1. Jules the Third*

        +1 ! Also, ‘there’s a lot of opportunities out these – what is your dream? What do you want?’

    4. DD*

      It’s a totally reasonable thing to discuss with your husband, and it’s obvious a lot of that is coming from your concern for him. I’d approach it from that point of view, but would also make it clear to him that his current job situation is burdening you logistically and financially in a way that might not be sustainable. That side of the conversation might be tricky, but I’d frame it as “I need you to help me, but I’m happy to help you help me,” if that makes sense.

      Ultimately, though, he himself has to want to change jobs, and it’s possible no amount of talking gets him there. (I *might* be in the same boat with my spouse… and I don’t know *what* would get him there, tbh.) Try not to get resentful when he takes time to come around! If you can afford it, hiring someone to take care of at least the drop-offs and/or pick-ups might also be a temporary relief once your second baby arrives. I have a friend who did this, and she said it made a huge difference not having to rush out the door every morning with her kid. Good luck!

      1. Jules the Third*

        I would save ‘it’s a burden to me’ for second or third round of discussions. Lower the barriers instead of raising the pressure (Miles Vorkosigan, _Komarr_)

      2. anon mom*

        I’d love to hire extra help, but once kid #2 comes along, we’re basically going to be living paycheck to paycheck with childcare costs. This is where more flexibility/closer to home would really help, as right now if we went the nanny route, we’d need 50 hours a week, and even that would be tight. If he could get a job that paid the same but he could work more flexible hours or was closer to home, we could stagger things so we’d only need a nanny maybe 40 hours a week, which would bring the cost to less than daycare and have the added benefit of no pick-up drop-off. But I’m afraid if I’m too heavy-handed in making this point, he will feel defensive/pressured. Because I make substantially more (and the unspoken weird gender things around that), I’m very sensitive about how I frame some of these issues.

        1. valentine*

          Make a list of everything that needs to be done by someone, which is everything except the gestation. Try to erase any mental assignments you’re making; keep it just as a task list. Maybe add outsourcing costs. Separately, write a few paragraphs of what you want your family life to be, including finances and your work, but not hubby’s (unless he absolutely has to be working). If hubs doesn’t earn enough more than daycare to make it worthwhile, would him being SAH whilst job searching improve the family happiness quotient as well as the finances? What will you gain if you start ordering groceries online this week? If using a laundry service will feel like heaven, how much money do you need coming in and what options do you have there? If money were less of an issue, would you leave your job? That done, you’re set for a discussion where you share your assessment and see if he shares your goals and/or methods and what he wants workwise. Be sure to mention you want to get on this now to avoid either of you (but especially you) feeling resentful or stuck once baby deux arrives. Also: hubs working with a therapist (not you) to help him reset his stance on who puts food on your family might be a great relief you think impossible that will really boost you as you navigate this and allow more solutions.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Given all of this, it’s very reasonable!

      When he complains, I’d say “It seems like you’re really unhappy with that job. And considering that it doesn’t pay well, and it makes life more difficult on ME, it’s frustrating that you’re sticking with it even though you hate it. Maybe it’s time for a change.”

      And if he disagrees (or if he agrees but doesn’t do anything about it), I just wouldn’t give him an ear any more. “Sorry, it stresses me out to hear how much you hate this job, since you’re not willing to find a different one. I can’t listen to this right now.”

    6. LilySparrow*

      With my DH, I’d start with, “Honey, I’ve been worrying about how things are going to change for us when the baby comes, in terms of finances and just logistics. It looks really overwhelming and I’m not sure I can keep doing the daycare runs and everything by myself. Can we talk about how to make things easier?”

      Nine times out of ten, when I talk about what’s worrying me, he offers to step up in ways as good or better than what I was going to ask him to do.

  66. It’s All Good*

    For those of you that use 1099 consultants – even consultants can’t be “on” 100%. I might take a few minutes “talk break” with a few people or duck outside to make a phone call. What are your expectations when it comes to 1099 consultants (not through a consulting firm)? Do you get upset when you see them catching up with others on Monday? How about joining in on birthday cake (invited by the staff) or other goodies? – as for myself let’s say I’m working 3 hours, I might stay an extra 15 mins (and not bill) to makeup for any down time. And I will bring in bagels or the like once a month or so. – As far as optics, what are your thoughts? – another related question, any good way to excuse yourself from a rambling employee when you are on the clock?

    1. Overeducated*

      I think it is insane to expect consultants to completely wall themselves off from any office chit-chat and skip the occasional group birthday cake. Making up longer breaks with more time on the clock is professionally courteous to the employer, insisting on 100% productivity at the expense of allowing the consultant to be part of the team in anyway is not professionally courteous to the consultant, and consultants do not have to provide donuts.

  67. Jadelyn*

    Any advice on *coming back from* being at the BEC point with someone?

    Because I have straight up reached BEC with my manager. I have always been frustrated by certain behaviors, but lately everything she does drives me up a wall, because I just got that fed up with certain aspects of the irritating behaviors.

    How can I step back from that? I still need to try to maintain a decent working relationship here, and that’s hard when I am barely stopping myself from flipping off the phone while talking to her.

    1. Jule*

      With one of my prior bosses I had to treat the situation like I was doing CBT. My instant jumps to irritation and frustration with her were not working and I had to, well, actively retrain my brain to choose empathy or just neutrality. It’s about identifying your own negative thoughts so that you can correct them as they arise and create new, better patterns for the future. There are a lot of good worksheets out there if you google around, if you’re not already working with a therapist. I know from personal experience that my own instinct is to dwell on the fact that my frustration with someone is “correct,” but when that frustration is interfering with your own work and wellbeing, time to refocus. Good luck!

      1. Jadelyn*

        Sadly my HMO is terrible with mental health care – it’s all group stuff, good luck getting individual therapy more often than once every 8 weeks – but they have a DBT group and I’ve heard that’s similar to CBT? I’ll check for worksheets as well. I guess just from a pragmatic standpoint, I have every *right* to be frustrated, but it’s not helping.

        1. zora*

          Even if you aren’t making a lot of money, can you invest in a little bit of therapy for a short time?
          In my area there are graduate school programs that have a sliding scale for working with people finishing their psychotherapy or social worker licensing. It can be like $60 – 80 for one hour, so if you can find $250-300 to spend on this problem, that’s a few weekly sessions with someone to help develop your tools for dealing with this.

          What has worked for me is to disconnect emotionally. It’s easier said than done, but I have been able to do it somewhat. Basically just thinking “Uh huh, well you’re paying me $X to sit here and listen to you being totally wrong.” or “to do this same thing for the 14th, time. Oh well that seems like a you problem.” Just making it about going through the motions and not being invested personally in the situation or the outcomes.

          The other CBT technique is to rewrite your mental narrative. So, write down in actual words the negative thoughts you have when she’s driving you crazy. And then rewrite them in a positive framing. Like “That is such a stupid idea.” and rewrite it to “Well, she’s the boss, so I’m getting paid to listen to this idea, I don’t have to like it” . That’s not a great example, because I’m not good at this technique ;) but I think that gives you the idea.

          1. Jadelyn*

            My financial situation is really tight right now unfortunately – my partner, who’s the higher earner of the two of us by far, is on partial unpaid leave for medical reasons, and it’s causing serious strain on the household budget as it is. :(

            But I really like the reframing of “well, you’re paying me to basically be a wasted asset, I guess that’s your problem, as long as I’m still getting paid for it.” I tend to get very emotionally invested in my work, so maybe working on being able to take that emotional step back would help me manage my frustration.

            1. zora*

              Yeah, I get the money issue, just thought I’d throw it out there.

              But I get emotionally invested, too, I’ve had the exact same problem you are having so I totally know how it feels! It’s so frustrating!!

              But try to make it about taking care of yourself and your own mental health for a bit!

        2. Jule*

          You can learn CBT-style skills without going to therapy. You’re not going to be somehow doing something “wrong” by reading a book/looking at worksheets on the web and trying to put these ideas into action. You can and should look into the principles on your own, especially when the situation is “my boss bugs me and I want to work on my reactions to it,” not something drastic.

    2. JobinPolitics*

      Jadelyn, that’s a tough situation.

      If you don’t mind my asking, are there particular behaviors she does that cause you a great deal of annoyance? Can you find some space to collect yourself and mask your BEC mood?

      If you could go for a walk or hang out in the storage area by yourself after one of the irritating episodes, it might be more tolerable.

      I too have been barely hanging out when dealing with disorganized and distracted bosses. My reaction has ruined some working relationships, so I advise you to get some space and don’t risk alienating your boss.

      Good luck!

      1. Jadelyn*

        The big thing is that – I am a specialist in the HRIS software solution that my team uses, and more generally with reports and the tech we use. My manager is vehemently NOT technically savvy, but she thinks she is. So she thinks she understands something systems-related, and starts telling me how to do things in ways that are outside of our processes, and sometimes it’s just literally something the software is not capable of. I then have to try to argue her back out of it, sometimes successfully, sometimes not, and it drives me up a wall when she puts her foot down on something that doesn’t make sense with how the software works, because that’s how she thinks it should be done, and I don’t get to exercise any discretion as the SME on it. Like, I could get her the same results we’re going for in a much more efficient or effective way, but she overrules me and insists that it be done her way even though that’s just…not at all helpful and actively hinders my being able to do my best work.

        More generally, she’s gone from a fairly laissez-faire management approach to suddenly being much more authoritative and directive and borderline micromanaging, which is a management style that I do not at all respond well to.

        For example, an employee change form that we use that I’ve managed for 4+ years has a field that only needs completed for part-time employees, listing their hours/week. It’s literally located right next to the “Part-Time” checkbox, because that’s the only time it’s relevant. If someone is full-time, the way our organization defines it, that inherently means 40 hrs/wk (for our purposes, even if they work 39 hrs/wk, that makes them “part-time”, so I would check that box – the ONLY time someone is considered full-time is with a 40 hr/wk schedule), so if the “Full-Time” box is checked, we don’t need to be redundant and add “40 hrs/wk” as well. But the last couple times I’ve used that form, she’s publicly “corrected” it to include the redundant “40” for full-time employees. And I’m like…really? This was necessary? It wasn’t a mistake. It doesn’t need corrected. This is a standard form, I’ve filled it out exactly like this for literally years without comment from anyone. But thanks, now you’ve made it look like I did something wrong, even though I didn’t.

        Now that the weather is getting nice, I can start stepping out for a quick break as needed. Hopefully breathing room will help, because you’re right, I really don’t want to hit a point where I actually snap and react badly.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Not a popular answer and I don’t like it myself: Try to see things from her perspective. It’s a practical method of redirecting thoughts that are not helpful.

          PT vs FT:Has there been a change somewhere? Did an auditor tell her she had to put in info even though it’s redundant?
          The one thing I see is the public correction, it feels like grandstanding. Ask her if she can tell you privately before telling others who might need to know.

          Computer program limitations. The best thing I have for this one is that the two of you sit together and work it through together. If she is not near you, have her remote in while you both are on the phone. I have found that many arguments happen because the relevant information is NOT in front of both people at the same time so they can look at it together.

          OR Maybe you can just tell her to skip the part about how to do it and just tell you what she wants on the end result. I have also gone with “I got this one.” or “I will take care of that for you.”

          Is she new?

        2. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

          So wait, why is she suddenly micromanaging you? Has anything happened to cause that – either on your end or hers?

        3. Double A*

          I don’t know what BEC is, but I think I get the gist.

          Can you try to detach from some of her decisions? I mean, the redundancy is… redundant, but does it hurt you or impede your work in any way? Can’t you just write it off as a quirk, and if that’s what she wants, well then she’s the boss and you can give it to her? The “correction” can be read as such, or as her telling you her preference, which is mildly inefficient but not going to ruin anything.

          And when it come to her telling you to use inefficient or incorrect processes, can you just be like, “Okay,” and then do it they way you know it needs to be done, since it will get the same result?

          It sounds like you’re not picking your battles. And I know when you think someone is rude, or an idiot, it can be hard not to push back, but since it’s exhausting YOU, then it would be to your benefit to decide what’s worth fighting, and what’s worth just saying OK to and then doing your job as you need to do it.

    3. CG*

      This is a tough one. For me, I basically have to force empathy, even if it means convincing my brain that the person must be doing that annoying thing because they’re having a hard time outside of work and it’s causing them emotional stress fractures at work, or focusing on Hanlon’s Razor or something. If I can’t find something on that front, then I usually try to focus on something about them that I do like. Do we both like the same sports team? Is the weather finally nice and our kids are getting excited? Do they have cool ties?

      Usually, my jerkbrain won’t take immediate steps toward “think more kindly of them”, so I have to keep myself from putting too much thought into the things they are doing that drive me nuts and focus on something that I’ll view more favorably about them, until my calm about them in that favorable area spreads to our general interactions. You may have to give her some space for a bit. It may take some time. Everyone has these moments, and they’re hard to move past. Good on you for recognizing it and wanting to fix it!

  68. KatieKate*

    There is a strong…fecal scent in my office this morning. There’s nothing on my shoes and I don’t think the smell is coming from me. I have no idea where it’s coming from but it’s driving me nuts :(

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        Supposedly you have to pour water down the drains in the bathroom occasionally lest the uh..sewer gas? leak back upwards. Or something to that effect.

        2. Natalie*

          Yep, there’s something called a trap, which is essentially just a bendy pipe. If it’s properly full of water, it prevents sewer gas from rising back up through the pipes and into the room.

          1. nep*

            Yep — always be sure there is water in the trap. If there are sinks/drains that are not used often, they could dry out causing an awful stench.

        3. Irene Adler*

          This was the case for 20+ years here at my work. I dutifully poured water down the drains in the restrooms to fill the traps to keep the stink away. This worked like a charm… until….the CFO lady chastised me for doing so. She explained that the stink is from not running the garbage disposal in the employee kitchen. Said I’d been wasting my efforts all those years. LOL!

          Personally, I think you are exactly correct.

        4. Rovannen*

          We have to do this. We had a sub janitor in last week and didn’t know to pour a bucket of water down the drain….wow.

  69. Ann*

    I’m at my first post-college job and struggling a bit with how to tackle a responsibility I’ve been asked to take on that I don’t want. For reference, I’m a software engineer at a large company.

    I think part of the reason I’m confused how to deal with this is my company just underwent some major restructuring. One of these changes is that my old boss was recently moved to a different role and my new boss has only been here for a few weeks so the old boss is still heavily involved (which is awkward knowing who we should listen to)

    I was introduced to Project A last year, when they asked me to help Mary (from the testing department) on it. It’s an (internal) project originally developed by that department, but they thought it would be useful to our department, so I was providing support to Mary on knowledge specific to my department. Basically if I write software for electric teapots, then project A tests it.

    During my yearly review, my boss and old boss said they’d like for me to work on this more and come up with a timeline for implementation, then supervise it. However, Mary is already established as managing this project – and I’m not sure if they’re aware of that (since there’s only 2 other people on the project it’s hard to miss who’s actually the leader) or intentionally ignoring it. I’m worried if they’re asking me to come up with deadlines and ensuring we meet them, then I’m stepping into that role.

    In addition, Mary had asked my old boss for help getting a software contractor for this project (since we’re all stretched thin already) and my boss and old boss have told me that they want me to manage this person. I really don’t want to do this. My experience working with this contracting firm is that they have to be micromanaged and given very clear, simple tasks. The type of software this is and the language it’s written in is very, very far outside of my comfort zone, but it is in the comfort zone of Mary and the other person working on this project. If I were to manage this person, I would just be playing a game of telephone where I tell the contractor what Mary requests, then Mary reviews his code and sends suggestions back through me. Of course, Mary could deal with them directly, but then I’d be responsible for their work without working with them, which I also don’t want, because it’s still my reputation on the line.

    Talking to Mary, she thinks my value on this project is helping with program-specific knowledge, and I’ll leave the code to her and her coworker (who are experienced in this, unlike me, and whose department is ultimately responsible for this project). I agree! The project I’m working on (and am assigned work assuming that’s the only thing I do) has some critical deadlines coming up in the next few months and I’m already swamped with work, so Mary knows that I have limited time to dedicate to this. The only problem is, I’m not sure how to say this to my boss / old boss without making it seem like I don’t want responsibility.

    My old boss pulled me aside afterwards to say that he thinks this is a great opportunity for me to get more exposure and responsibility – basically to have a big accomplishment to show at my next review. If I were the one working on the software, I’d be okay with it, but they’ve explicitly said I should only be doing management. I really like my current work as a software engineer – I want to prove myself there. I’m part of a very small team working on our flagship product, so there’s lot of great projects I’m currently working on with very concrete accomplishments. I have no desire to step into a managerial role, especially less than a year after I’ve started working here. But my old boss thinks that the more things the department is responsible for, the better. I think he wants me to take over this project because it means more power/importance for the department, even though it’s out of the scope of the department.

    1. MySherona*

      As a former “doer” and a current new manager with a pretty new hire to supervise, I’m struggling a bit with this too. I have a post-it note on my desk that says “Clarity, Strategy & Accountability” to remind myself that MANAGING is my actual job now, not doing the work myself. It’s hard, still.

    2. Jules the Third*

      So, first, talk to Mary. Let her know what your boss is asking, and explain that you see her as the project lead. See if there are things that you can do that will satisfy both, such as:
      Ask if you can *publish* her timeline, with proper attribution to her (X)
      Ask if you can be involved in status meetings and relay the results to your manager (Y)
      Ask to be cc’d on requirements to the contractor. (Z)

      Then go back to New Boss (ONLY! ignore Old Boss) and explain, “Here’s where I am with your feedback from our last meeting. You wanted X, Y, Z. Mary owns the project, so she did X, does Y now, and will be doing Z. Here is her X, I will keep you updated on Y, and I’ll be in the loop on Z. I want to make sure you understand that Mary and her dept own the project, and it’s not appropriate for me to try to take it over. Instead, I’ll be giving inter-departmental support for her department’s project.”

      AND THEN, in the same conversation: Talk to New Boss about one or two of those Great Projects with Concrete Accomplishments. Maybe do the ‘timeline and mgmt’ development for that. Show that you can develop the soft skills, but avoid the politics.

      Do not get into why Old Boss might have wanted you to do this. Do not mention Old Boss at all. If New Boss mentions Old Boss, say, ‘I guess Old Boss didn’t understand that Marie owns the project, but she knows the project, and even the language, better than I do! So, about the Great Project I want to work on…’

  70. The Tin Man*

    I have a question about my grandboss commenting on food choices.

    He is very health-conscious and if I am eating anything in front of him he almost always comments on it and whether it is healthy or not. I am confident in my food choices so this doesn’t bother me at all. I even like that it gives me a topic for small talk because I also strive to be health-conscious.

    What worries me is that he could be saying this to someone who is overweight or struggles with having a healthy relationship with food. I know he has also made comments to one of my coworkers. She feels the same as I do – she isn’t bothered by it personally but has concern about him making those comments to someone who would be negatively affected by it.

    I hesitate to bring it up to him directly because I enjoy talking with him about food. This makes me want to go to HR and ask if they can bring it up to him but that feels like it might be overkill too.

    1. Talk to him?
    2. Talk to my boss about it?
    3. Have HR talk to him/leave it up to HR?
    4. Leave it alone?
    5. Other?

    1. CheeryO*

      I think it’s really nice of you to be thinking about other people, but I would probably leave it alone.

    2. Anita-ita*

      I agree with the above comment, I would leave it alone. He might only be saying comments to people who are health conscious to strike up conversation. It’s not really your battle and as of now you are just speculating that he *could* be mentioning this to people who struggle with weight/eating healthy.

    3. Thlayli*

      Leave it alone. You have given him pretty clear signals that this topic is acceptable to you and you have no reason to believe he is doing that to anyone else.

    4. The Tin Man*

      Thank you all, I have (obviously) been choosing to leave it alone so far but I just had this nagging feeling like maybe I should speak up. I have heard nothing about him ignoring someone signaling that this is not a thing they are comfortable talking about.

      1. CTT*

        What do you usually say when he comments on your food? This could be a situation for “why do you ask?” as a response, and then you could figure out his motivation (be it judgemental or just his way of making conversation).

      2. Jules the Third*

        You could maybe steer the conversation to ‘problems around food’ and see their reaction – an opportunity might arise where you could mention that food choices are so personal, and so tied in with personal choices, that you sometimes hesitate to discuss it.

        IOW, you could discuss it without critiquing him, just mention how *you* approach it.

  71. Sapphire*

    Weekly unemployment thread! Feel free to share where you are in your job searches.

    I have a dilemma in that I’m waiting to hear back from two places. One is a temp job at a bank that seems like they really want to hire me, and one is a permanent job at a university. Since I’m on unemployment, if the temp job calls first, I have to take it because I can’t refuse a job offer, but if the university calls after that, I’d want to quit the temp job.

    They’ve already been through one person who didn’t work out, so if I leave, I’d feel really bad. Do you think they’d understand if I said “I got this offer that’s full-time and permanent with benefits and I can’t turn it down”?

      2. London Calling*

        Especially not a temp job that *seems like* they might want to hire you over a definite offer. That’s the nature of temping – they can give a week’s notice and so can you. Sucks for them but there it is.

        1. Sapphire*

          The project that they’re working on is actually time-bounded, so I understand why they’re hiring a temp, but you’re right. If they really wanted, they could have just found someone in their department to give the project to, or created a new role for it.

        2. Sapphire*

          I should clarify I haven’t gotten offers from either the university or the temp job yet. I’m supposed to hear at around the same time for both.

    2. Canadian Teapots*

      I have a part-time job that will always be part-time and the hours fluctuate a lot.

      Trying to get a full-time job has been… interesting, in the Chinese-curse sense, since I left school in December.

      I managed to land one interview about a couple months ago but didn’t get the job, and since then I’ve only had a phone interview with a recruiter who, credit given, -did- seem optimistic, but couldn’t tell me if there was anything that would be a current good fit.

      I’ve been running on savings but am now at the point where I’m going to be seriously “out of gas” in the financial sense. I really don’t know what else I can do but keep trying to find jobs to apply to. (It’s ridiculous, too. The unemployment rate in Canada is historically VERY LOW by the standards of recent decades.)

      1. Sapphire*

        I’m sorry! Job hunting is a really soul-sucking experience, and it can be really lonely at times.

        When I graduated college, I registered with a temp agency to at least find something that made money and get me into the workforce. Something like that may help keep you afloat while you job-search, and then you’re still employed while you’re looking.

        1. Canadian Teapots*

          Thanks for the tip! I’ll try and give that a go. Good luck for you as well! :)

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Crickets.

      I applied to a remote job but I doubt very seriously I’ll hear back. The company is divided between great and abysmal reviews. But it would start me in the direction I want to go, so even if it’s not that great, I would probably do it for the experience. It seems to be a full-time job because they mentioned benefits. I don’t have ALL the quals, but I’m sure I could do it or I wouldn’t have applied.

      Nothing here pays over $10 an hour unless it has accounting. :(

    4. Luna123*

      I had an interview for a teller position at a bank this week. The interview went pretty well — but I sort of wish that someone else comes along and gets the position because the manager kept talking about how you have to look out for scams and, honestly, I don’t have great soft skills. I can be totally friendly and polite, but I don’t think I’d be able to spot someone trying to con me and I think I’d be too trusting.

      But I also applied for my old job at a big-time company (which offers benefits AND better pay!) last Friday and I’m really hoping they call me back soon.

  72. Finally a Fed*

    I had my interview with my husband’s company this week and it went really well. I was actually very impressed with the technical work they’re doing and the caliber of people on the team (also noteworthy was that many people had worked for this organization for 20+ years and were very happy). The management was also very impressive, they clearly care about their people. My husband’s boss’s boss even made it a point to get on my schedule and ask what he could do to help us out and ensure that my husband stays with the company. I feel much more confident now about giving this company and team a chance and leaving my gov agency. We’re going to decide this weekend.

    Anyway, I wanted to thank Alison and this community because I was super prepared when HR called and asked about my salary expectations. Interview was Weds and HR called yesterday – I gave them my salary minimum and the hiring manager called before the end of the day with a number at the top of what the position allows ($3.5K more than I asked, which is $15K than my current). I’m very aware that for my field and experience this is very generous, but I still (confidently!) countered back with the request for a signing bonus! They’re going to let me know Monday and I said I’d have a decision before the end of the week (the bonus won’t actually sway my decision but I figured it wouldn’t hurt to ask).

  73. Be the Change*

    How do you know when you have genuinely, really done your best on something? We’ve been busting our butts for months on something and it’s coming down to completion and I’m afraid it’s going to be lackluster. I keep thinking, “If I’d done this little thing or that little thing differently, or just a bit better, or put in just that five more minutes on something….”

    This big project has shoved everything else aside, so if it’s not fabulous, we’ll have incurred a huge opportunity cost as well. I feel like it’s fractured the team a bit too, somehow, just with the giant demand. I’ve tried to moderate workloads and asked for special extra time off for people, and when it’s done we’ll celebrate, but I can feel the fraying edges.

    If I could be sure that I had done My Best With Everything I Had, I would — well, I wonder if I’d be even more strung out!

    Help…? Kind words? “Suck it up buttercup, this is high level adulting”?

    1. ainomiaka*

      I’m super interested to hear responses to this. I have wondered about that too. I have no advice just sympathy.

    2. fposte*

      I think you don’t know, and you have to move forward anyway. And while I know “doing your best” is a popular rubric, I’m not always a fan, because there’s almost always more “best” we could give and when does it stop? I’d focus more on avoiding foreseeable errors and workflow problems and keeping up the team support during the effort.

      And honestly, when you look around the world, it’s really common for big efforts to be lackluster. I’m not saying “Woohoo, embrace mediocrity!” but that not getting the level of success you hoped for isn’t the same thing as a failure.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Doing your best vs. embracing mediocrity.

        This is what the expression “it is what it is” was invented for.

        Doing your best is actually a sliding scale. Let’s say you have a project that will take 24 hours= 3 work days. So you do it in one workday because Deadlines. That project is going to be pretty shabby because there was on 33% of the time put into it.
        Now, take the same project and you have FOUR whole days to do it. To compare the result of 4 days work to the result of 1 days work is going apples to oranges. You can’t compare them, even though it’s the same item and process.

        This is just an example of time constraint. There are many other types of constraints. Number of people helping, the quality of their work, the quality of the inputs/materials at the start of the process, you get the idea. There are lots of variables.

        This is why there is quality control, because these variations come up. QC sets the boundaries for variations.

        So let’s say your project meets QC, customer’s expectations, company standards, whatever. You did the best you could do given the constraints of the project. It might not be your ideal best.

        The super star employees are always thinking about how to do it better the next time. And this is not a beat yourself up thing, it’s all about learning the job and all the different twists that come up. It’s about being on top of your game.

        I have never done a project yet that I did not find something I could do a bit better. This quest for improvement has keep me employed. My current boss will tell me I push myself too hard but in the next breath she will say this is the type of help she needs because our work demands that hard push.

        I had to learn that if the boss is satisfied that is the ultimate right there. While I may know for a fact that I could do better or the situation could be improved, I am not the person signing my paycheck. Someone else decides if I have done my best.

    3. Elena*

      To an extent it is. Several things:
      1) It was the best you could do *then*. Maybe it isn’t the best your mind and body are capable of with training. So your post mortem analysis should include questions” “what defects of mine contributed to my lack of success, and what was outside my control?” “How can I get more control over this thing ourside my control?” (That third one is important.)
      2) You can only improve yourself in a macro global way by slow, incremental record-keeping, change and habit formation. No shortcuts.

      3) If the outcomes were random: Playing a random game with good odds is not a bad decision because you lost, or a good decision because you won. Your ethical responsibility is to have a downside in the risk you take; but what the lottery spits out is not on you.

    4. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      Why not all three?

      Do you actually feel like you put your all into this project? From what it sounds like from what you’ve said…you did. You’ve worked insanely hard for months, and I hope your management team and your own team sees that.

      One of the things I try to remind myself of is that I can’t control how my customer feels. They’re human and they can be irrational. They don’t know or care what I go through day to day. So if they’re a jerk to me or simply don’t like what I’ve done…well, I just have to fix it. It’s not me personally. It’s business.

      I hope your project goes off perfectly, by the way, and everyone loves you and your team for it. It sounds like y’all deserve it.

    5. Be the Change*

      Thank you all! Realizing that I’m not crazy or incompetent helps.

      fposte, that is a really good point, that not getting the success we hoped for is not the same as failure. Also you are exactly spot on about my “doing my best” dilemma, because of course, there’s *always* more, if I had unlimited personal bandwidth and titanium-and-diamond self-discipline.

      The thing (it’s an event) will be impeccably organized, with wonderful speakers and plenty of time for idea sharing. We won’t lose a ton of money, in fact we may come out a tad ahead and I can use those bucks to support our clients in some other way. We’ll have pretty good participation and I’ll need to be okay with that. I can foresee a couple of sag points in the program, and maybe I can incorporate some moderated active discussions. People sitting around talking to each other about the reason that they’re there is GOOD, not a fail.

      Mainly, spectacular success depends upon other people’s participation, and we have literally done everything we know to do to get the word out and engage our audience. In a few cases, people we asked to do outreach things have simply not done it, and there’s only so often I can ask and remind and cajole. (Honestly my meltdown was caused by a member of our nominal “collaborative planning committee” asking *when* the event is. …which meant that they haven’t actually read a single email from me for at least six months. That is not something I can hold myself responsible for.)

      I’ll report back in a few weeks. Meanwhile thanks very much for the kind words and the perspective.

  74. Mrs. McGyver*

    Hello!

    I had something happen (that I consider strange) this week and I’m looking for some insight as to how usual or unusual this is. I’ve been job hunting for a few months now and I’ve had some interviews but no offers yet. A coordination position came up at a local company where I happened to have a contact (from high school) working there. I applied for the position and then sent a LinkedIn message to my contact giving her a head’s up that I had applied, and if the name sounded familiar, it was me, ect. We had a few messages back and forth were I explained I was looking for a career/industry change and that the opportunity looked really good, and I had seen how happy she’d been working there. She said she’s pass on my name to the recruiter, and sure enough the next afternoon I had an email from the recruiter asking for availability next week for a phone interview and to fill out a personality test.

    Here’s where I need the insight: I replied with my results from the personality test and my availability as “any day next week during a two hour window (I get a lot of flexibility for when to take lunch thankfully). I look forward to solidifying a date and time that works for you next week.” Normally, I receive a confirmation back from recruiters letting me know what date and time specifically works for them. I waited anxiously on Monday, but never heard from the recruiter. Ok, maybe she had a busy Monday? I understand how that goes. Well, Tuesday comes along and she calls during the time I stated I was free. I didn’t know she would be calling so I didn’t answer the phone because I didn’t recognize the number. She left a message saying she had “carved out time to discuss the role and to call her back if still interested.” I was able to 20 minutes later but she didn’t answer, I left a message.

    She didn’t call back the rest of the day so I emailed as soon as work ended that I was sorry I didn’t answer her call, I hadn’t received confirmation on a date and time to discuss the role. I again expressed my interested and asked if she had time on Thursday at a specific hour that I knew I could get away from my desk. I haven’t received any response and I didn’t receive a call on Thursday.

    Was I in the wrong to state my availability as I did? Do I need to express that I have a two hour for when I can take lunch but it’s crucial that I know what date and time works best for them so I can get away from my desk? I left the interaction feeling really……confused. It feels really unprofessional to me that the recruiter never clarified when she was actually going to call. I am super disappointed to miss out on discussing the opportunity, and I’m chalked it up to a learning experience to be more explicit and clear that my available really depends on what works best for the recruiter.

    Is this normal? Should I only give one-two days with an hour window available in the future? Many thanks for reading my long post and all advice is greatly appreciated!

    1. Murphy*

      I think you handled it fine. The recruiter should have confirmed a time with you. If someone tells me “I’m available any day next week from 11-1” I wouldn’t just show up at noon on Wednesday without telling them first

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think you did everything right here. The only thing I might have done differently (though it’s not clear from your timeline if this was possible) would be to send a follow-up note on Friday afternoon or Monday morning to inquire about a firm time to schedule a phone interview.

      I think it’s rudeness on the recruiter’s behalf to just assume you’ll sit by your phone every day for those two hours and be ready for a phone interview, but there will inevitably be people that do this in any job search.

      1. Mrs. McGyver*

        Thank you! Just to clarify – I received the first email asking for availability on Friday afternoon. I didn’t see it until super late and emailed back over the weekend. I didn’t hear anything on Monday and she called on Tuesday. It totally woudln’t have hurt to sent a quick follow-up Tuesday morning asking for confirmation on a date and time from her end. If I’m in the same situation again I’ll definitely do so. =)

    3. Not Alison*

      This is what happens when you don’t answer a call just because you don’t recognize the number. Just answer the call!

      1. Murphy*

        No, this is not Mrs. McGyver’s fault. Even if they picked up the phone, getting called for a phone interview you weren’t expecting while, presumably, at work isn’t a good situation to be in.

        Also, at least for me, unknown numbers are pretty much always spam. I only pick up unknown numbers if they’re local (to where I am, not to where my phone number is) and sometimes even then, they’re still spam.

        1. Mrs. McGyver*

          You’re totally right Murphy, thank you! I was horrified even hearing the voicemail with my direct report sitting right across from me! I certainly didn’t want them hearing anything! It also didn’t help that I had four other spam calls that day. It was an unusually high number of spam calls so I was on extra high alert to not answer. My deal is, if it’s someone important, they’ll leave a message so I can call back. I’ve heard horror stories about people getting their voice recorded by these spam callers who use it for fraud. Thank you for letting me know I acted as professional as I could.

  75. Pregnant Doc*

    I have a question about leaving a job after taking FMLA leave.

    I work as a physician at a local health center (I am employed by them and receive their employer-sponsored insurance). Recently, I have been offered a job elsewhere, starting in the fall–I intend to take this new position. Where I work, they request 6 months leaving notice (I think 3-6 months is standard for physicians, because it can take months to get someone licensed and credentialed). I would have no problem giving notice 6 months in advance, but I am planning to take 12 weeks’ FMLA maternity leave in May-July.

    I would return in August and complete 30 days of work then before ultimately leaving; my understanding is that if you return to work for at least 30 days following return from FMLA leave, you don’t have to pay back insurance premiums or any other benefits you kept while on leave.

    My question is: once I give notice in March that I’m leaving in September, can my employer tell me “Don’t come back after your maternity leave?” Or tell me “Your last day is in May, we’re terminating your employment then?” If they did this, would this essentially cancel my FMLA leave, so that I wouldn’t have insurance coverage from when I go on maternity leave to when I start my new job?

    Any insight anyone has would be greatly appreciated!!!

    1. fposte*

      With physician-level salary, I’d ask a lawyer on this one to be sure. You’re definitely at-will and not under contract?

      My understanding is that an employer is indeed free to accept your resignation and shorten your notice period, so I think you’re right to be concerned. I’d crunch the numbers to see just how much it would cost you to cover the premiums for the period in question, and I’d also check with the new job to see if there’s any flexibility in the start date just in case there was a possibility to mollify your old employer by returning to work for 60 or 90 days rather than the bare minimum 30.

    2. Sci Fi IT Girl*

      I second checking with a lawyer. Technically they should not shorten your time, especially if they run the risk of doing it because of pregnancy. That always looks bad on the employer, and from the employee it can be hard to prove :-(. Just checking – first make sure you worked there long enough for qualify for full FMLA. I have had a friend get burned when they thought they had FMLA but they did not work enough hours to get it yet. If you have the hours, then you are in a better situation.

      If you have filed all the paperwork (the notice and the FMLA) it would look very suspicious for them to terminate your FMLA early. I figure if you give 6 months notice don’t they have to give the same 6 months (as long as you didn’t steal stuff / commit crimes/ etc.)? Still it is worth talking to a lawyer on how to best do it.

    3. Pregnant Doc*

      Thank you both!!! It sounds like talking to a lawyer will indeed be the way to go–I was hoping there was a simple, straightforward answer out there somewhere, but it looks like that’s not how these things work! I am indeed an employee at-will, not a contract employee–so while they do request 6 months’ notice, there’s no legal/contractual requirement on either end to give any notice of resignation/termination. I would never leave without giving proper notice because that would be very bad for patient care, and for the same reason I would hope that they wouldn’t terminate someone abruptly unless it was for serious misconduct–but if one of us did that, there would only be reputational, not financial, damages. Thanks again!!!

  76. Jess R.*

    I want to hear all your petty grievances about your coworkers! Things that you know you shouldn’t be irritated about, but by golly, you are.

    I’ll start: Yesterday 2 members of my 4-person team left exactly on time even though we had a serious backlog due to a computer issue. My team lead and I stayed almost 3 hours overtime to finish it all. They’re under no obligation to stay but I was a little grumbly because if we’d all stayed, we could have all left at a reasonable time.

    1. Canadian Teapots*

      I wonder if it might be worth bringing up, because people often don’t think about the effect their actions have on others. “Many hands make light work” is an aphorism because it’s so often true.

    2. Drew*

      One of my teammates has a laugh that is much closer to a giggle. Giggling does not suit him. But at least he only giggles when he is amused, rather than being like another coworker who giggles LOUDLY as punctuation.

      Sometimes, they have a conversation.

    3. Hannah*

      For fuck’s sake boss PLEASE try to respond to these goddamn emails within 24 fucking hours, I have people who need to hear back!!

      1. Drew*

        Don’t stress about it – it’s not like the response is going to have the information you need anyway. (Been there!)

    4. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I have a new colleague who, despite being nearly 30, talks like an actual teenager. His previous role was working with college students so on one hand I understand why he’s gotten into the habit of speaking so informally, but it doesn’t match the culture of my office AT ALL. The other day I was in a meeting with him and my boss and asked my boss for clarification on a process because I didn’t fully understand, and my colleague literally said “retweet”! Not “I have the same question” or “I’d like that as well” or even saying nothing, but “retweet!”. I couldn’t believe my ears.

      1. Drew*

        At a former job, a colleague once expressed her amazement to our boss by saying “Shut! Up!” My boss was not familiar with that particular idiom and the room got very frosty for a few minutes.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I was the one in my mid-30s, giving a tour to a colleague and enthusing over some high-tech gizmo he just asked about by saying “Dude! It totally has X and Y features!”
        Colleague just kinda looked at me and said, “Did you just call me ‘dude’?”

        (I did live in CA for about 18 months once…)

    5. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      At the client office I have:
      * one coworker whose laugh sounds like a moan and loves singing off key
      * other that talks with a posh (nasal) accent and exaggerates the pronounciation of English words
      * a third one that speaks in baby talk
      Those three are besties, constantly brag about their lavish lifestyle and sit behind me. They’re annoying as hell.

    6. CTT*

      I have two classmates, both of whom are my friends, who are at total BEC mode with each other but are also unfortunately on a committee together and have taken to sending passive-aggressive mass emails to the school (Friend A sent an email reminding them about a deadline, Friend B felt that the email wasn’t clear enough and responded with his own, Friend A sent a follow-up saying “Thank you for that addition, Friend B” and then later sent another email that in the future, only communications from her or the administration were official. IT’S GREAT). Like, we graduate in a month, I’m not even involved on this committee, and they are doing more than enough to make themselves look bad, but I really wish they had taken me into account when they got into this blood feud because it’s extremely awkward for me.

    7. Ally A*

      One of my colleagues is here first every day and unlocks/opens the door to our conference/printer/break room. BUT they cannot seem to figure out how to open it all the way. It’s always only opened exactly half way, blocking half the room. It drives my INSANE. Just push the door all the way open!!

    8. Can't Sit Still*

      I have a new co-worker who sits in an office next to my cube. It’s a shared office, so she sits facing me. She clears her throat All.Day.Long. I’m hoping I will learn to tune her out eventually.

    9. LDP*

      My gripe is about my boss. She shows up 45+ min late, takes 2-3 hour lunches most days, and stays late. Which normally I wouldn’t care. If you have that kind of freedom, make your schedule whatever you want. My issue is that I’m expected to be here right on time, take only one hour for lunch, and since I’m hourly, leave on time. (She’s repeatedly called me out for clocking in at 8:33 for example when I should be there by 8:30, or the one day I clocked out at 5:28, even though I had taken a short lunch.) Plus, since she’s here late, she saves a lot of our work conversations for the very end of the day. So I end up having to stay late All. The. Time.
      She’s also made some snarky comments about my alleged drinking/dating habits. (For context, we’re both women. She’s in her 40’s/50’s, I’m in my mid-twenties). When I had strep throat back in October I told her I wanted to leave right on time to go to urgent care because my tonsils were so swollen. She said, “I bet you just want to go get drunk with your friends!” while laughing. When I had a bad cold a few weeks ago she claimed I got it from “Making out with too many guys on St. Patrick’s Day.” We have never talked about dating or drinking or any of that, so it’s not like I’m over sharing and she’s using it against me.
      And those are just the very tip of the iceberg.

      1. valentine*

        What if, at the beginning of the conversation, you tell her you can stay until x o’clock and set a timer or alarm for five minutes before you want to walk out the door?

    11. BEC for J*

      My cube mate (we don’t really share a cube but the way they are set up it sometimes feels like it) is in every way Dudley do right. He comes in early, leaves late, skips lunch- despite only sort of completing one project in the year he’s been here. I have no idea what he does all day, every day, that requires so many hours in his seat. He also does eat any sugar or processed food.

    12. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I have a colleague who is pretty good but very prone to accident and illness, meaning that half the time they are not actually doing much work. They recently fell during some bad weather and hurt their back, which I sympathize with but which means they haven’t been able to do any of the harder jobs at work. So for the last week I was doing all of the harder jobs while this person literally sat or laid on the ground at random intervals. I’m sympathetic and all, but now *my* back is starting to get sore, too!

  77. ainomiaka*

    So I wrote back a while ago about the company that didn’t have salary figured out for freelancing. Everyone who said red flag was right. So much B.S. I’m glad I only did a trial. They are trying to claim it was problems with me (which would coincidentally involve expenses they claim they should take out of my pay) and some of that is probably true. I should have fought harder on some things I didn’t understand rather than trust “oh, we’ll look over it so send it over.” But OMG. okay. Venting done.

    Question-at my actual job we have a guy who has some family situation that has involved being gone most of two months already. I know his wife has health issues, but this is a new level. And when he’s there, he does what he’s told and nothing else. Like in terms of general make everything go better stuff this month, I did 13, another teammate did 7 and he did 0. In Feb he did 3, I believe Our team of 3 is getting behind, as we have a lot of stuff that comes in spring. My grandboss is asking what can be done to help. I don’t don’t don’t don’t wanna start a blame war because I have seen the havoc that causes on departments. I also don’t wanna start a blame war because his home situation isn’t my business and he may have discussed it with grandboss and this is an accommodation to get him through tough times. So what is the alternative?

    1. Undine*

      So, I would just answer the grandboss’s questions, without blame. They know there’s a problem, they want the details. Just assume this guy is going to be like this for at least another two months if not longer, and define what kind of help you need. Can they pull in someone from another department to do some of the more routine stuff? Can you hire a temp or a consultant and actually have them be helpful? Can you rebalance the workload and shift priorities? What are the things only the three of you can do, and what are the things that maybe could be offloaded? That kind of information is useful to your grandboss and if he/she is decent, it’s not about blame.

    2. AcademiaNut*

      Stating facts is not starting a blame war! You normally have three people working full time, now you have two and the third only occasionally. So you could tell your boss “With Fergus’s situation, we don’t have enough hours to keep up with the work. So it would help to either hire a temp worker to pick up the slack, or to prioritize the work-load so that the most important items get done first.”

      If the boss knows what’s going on, then it’s fine, and you can have a practical discussion about how to handle it. If your boss doesn’t know what going on, that’s a major problem and he does need to know.

  78. LAM*

    Have you ever had a moment where you suddenly understand why someone would do [bad behavior] at work?

    I’m giving my two weeks today. And because of my relationship with my boss’s boss, I’m calling them to give them a heads up right before I tell my boss.

    But as I’m sitting here, all I can think is… uh, this is probably why some people just ncns when they want to quit. Or just leave and never come back.

    But, fortunately for me I guess, my reputation is too important to me to do that. Ugh.

    1. HiHiHi*

      I’ve absolutely had those moments! Also, I read “ncns” as “narc” and was very confused for a couple of minutes…definitely time to call it quits for today.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Yeah, I have a job where I have to stay open until 5pm. And some days, when it’s 4:45pm and there is no reason to stay open on a Friday, I get why people close early.

  79. bcc*

    What is the best strategy to apply for a job with a Fortune 100 company? I had a one-year stint working for a competitor as a W-2 contractor, but it was an entry-level job and I’m currently looking at a mid-level job posting. I do meet the minimum requirements, but I’m sure plenty of the other applicants are actually overqualified.

    Is there hope, or should I try to get in through a staffing agency?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      There’s hope! Write a stellar cover letter and resume and apply through their job portal. A staffing agency may not do placements for mid-level job postings and you can’t guarantee upward mobility from the jobs they do staff.

    2. periwinkle*

      Just like any other job – write a strong resume, write a strong cover letter if they accept them, and apply. I went from a W-2 contractor at a small agency to a Fortune 50 company by applying to a posted position. It helps to read Alison’s book first, of course (seriously, do so if you haven’t already).

      It might be less beneficial to have connections at a large corporation than it would be for smaller companies. My employer has hundreds of applicants and everyone must go through the formal process, which is designed to be more objective and fair than the “old boy’s network” that used to be common here. I can’t just drop a buddy’s resume on my boss’s desk.

  80. SlickWilly*

    Help me find my way. I’m a late-30s computer professional who’s tired of working on machines and tech and wants something more meaningful for my life. I want to make a difference to other people. I love one-on-one conversations, especially of an advising, even philosophical nature. I don’t want to burn out in my 40s and suffer a mid-life crisis. I’ve considered teaching, but it feels too late to pursue a teaching degree. Management seems potentially suitable, but I’m just starting to hate the tech industry and don’t know that I could really take management for very long in my field. Opinionated people, give me some ideas.

    1. Mrs. Fenris*

      My first thought is to look more closely at teaching. If you have a four year degree, I bet you can get a teaching certificate without having to do an entire education degree.

    2. Dr. Doll*

      Instructional design might work for you. Combination of your tech skills plus a lot of consulting and individual coaching and pedagogical problem solving.

    3. Earthwalker*

      I remember reading a few years back that one of the hottest IT jobs for the future was in teaching and advocating collaboration via social media and information sharing tools. That always struck me as a coaching job with a technical bent.

    4. Nesprin*

      Technical management at a non-crappy company. Knowing both the tech and wanting to mentor the next generation would make you perfect for a very hard to recruit for position. Teaching != one on one advising,

      1. Ellie*

        It is NEVER too late for teaching!!! If you have a BA or BS already, you won’t have to earn another degree. (Degrees in education are really more for people who want to teach at the elementary level.) There are many accelerated certification programs through a variety of organizations, and one might be right for you. Your background in tech can turn into teaching in a STEM field, which every district desperately needs. Trust me- the worst day in public education is still better than the best day in corporate America.

    5. Anon for this*

      It’s not too late for teaching if that’s what you want. I’m working in the tech field now at a company that’s completely in line with my values. Before that, I went back to school for teaching, thinking I’d enjoy it since I’d enjoyed tutoring/advising one-on-one. I liked parts of student teaching, but didn’t enjoy the complete lack of flexibility in STEM lesson planning and curriculum choices – I was in a public school, and lesson plans were essentially handed down by the district. To each his/her own. Teaching can be rewarding. Some people in my program were working toward their second career. Many states also have alternative certification programs to allow people who already have degrees to get certified without going through the whole education degree process. It’s definitely possible to pivot to teaching, though my experience is that it’s not quite the same as one-on-one conversations.

  81. louise*

    My professional roller coaster has been pretty well documented in the open threads by this point – left Entry Level Engineering Job A after 2.5 years due to sexism / being called a bitch / they brought me in a room with a lawyer and interrogated me on my mental health, took Contract Engineering Job B, which ended after four months due to zero training and comments like “you don’t look happy,” had 8 months of unemployment, and finally got Engineering Job C which is OK and I’m not wild about it, but honestly, it’s better than unemployment. I had a reference check done, and my supervisor’s reference from B is pretty lukewarm at best, and the one from A is downright rude. It’s not exactly a lie because it’s an opinion, but it doesn’t put me in a great light.

    So, I’m on the cusp of being licensed. I should have my time by the end of the year. BUT NOW. Long distance boyfriend has a potential job offer in a different city, even farther away from me. I don’t know what to do! I don’t want to leave this job, which I’ve been at only since November, for fear of looking like a job hopper and not accruing my time for licensure (which I am hoping will make it infinitely easier to find a job, but we’ll see), but also out of fear of *another* bad reference.

    I don’t know what to do! What kind of impression would it give to a potential employer to have three short-term stays? How can I make something like this work without performing total career suicide?

    1. fposte*

      I think you get a bigger pass for leaving town than for some things, but the question in most fields wouldn’t be simply “Are you a job-hopper?” but “Have you advanced and grown over time in a particular job the way we’d hope you will in ours?” Generally the person with one three-year stint is eligible for higher level work than the person with three one-year stints.

      So I’d say consider your field, consider your current city and the potential new city, and investigate the impact of licensure (I love credentials, but I know they’re not all worth the effort). Is the new city a tight job market with few early career possibilities in your field? That argues for staying through the end of the year, getting the licensure, and then joining your BF in New City. Is new city a booming market and does your field have a high tolerance for movement (I’m guessing no, from your concerns, but hey, doesn’t hurt to ask)? Then moving now might be a fine thing.

      You can kind of split the difference by testing the water with some applications in New City now–if you get interest with your current history, then that’s a good sign that it won’t be that big an obstacle.

    2. ainomiaka*

      can you stay until you get the license and then move? I know it’s longer time apart, but if you should have the experience to apply by the end of the year, it’s not impossible.

      1. Mirth & Merry*

        I will second this, more than the job hopper thing if moving delays your PE I would wait. I was so surprised at how having a PE changed my “worth” (salary), number of job opportunities,and like “hire-ability (companies willing to train/overlook a requirement to two for having the PE)

        and honestly it’s not like one more year out of your whole working career is a lot, but it’s so nice to get the PE over and done with

    3. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Stay to get the license and only relocate to boyfriend’s city with accepted job offer in hand is what I would do.

      Seems like too many woman commit career-unwise decisions in the name of romance. If proximity is important, why isn’t boyfriend moving to you? Also, do you want to leave your current job, have the romance fizzle (or not fizzle but be entirely dependent on boyfriend financially), and struggle to find a new job in boyfriend’s city for months?

      If it’s meant to be, he can wait until you have a new job before you move. Once you get the new job, presuming you stay, you don’t have to worry about the job hopper quality.

  82. Mrs. Fenris*

    Just saw a job posting from my super-high-drama old job. Very long description of how great the area is to live in, plus the kicker, “This is more than just a place to work-it’s a family.” Blargh.

  83. Hannah*

    Looking for encouragement and advice re: the job search. Almost 30, female.

    I’m looking at leaving my current job, which I’ve been at for a year and a half, for a lot of reasons. (Primarily: I am working on a computer five years past the end of its life where I have to log out and back in any time I want to print more than one document, and the other one is supposed to have been replaced in November but it STILL isn’t replaced; and most concerningly, I’m underpaid (to the point that I’m starting to fall behind on bills, and the org is currently 500k behind in revenue and possibly looking at layoffs if revenue doesn’t improve, and I know admin will be the first on the chopping block.)

    I’ve been job searching since September. I’ve applied to almost… 400 jobs at this point. I’m getting phone interview and in person interview requests. I’ve gotten to several final round interviews, only to lose out to candidates who either have more experience in the area that they’re looking for, and one said they thought I’d be more comfortable in a structured environment (which seemed like a weird piece of feedback).

    Recruiters for staffing agencies call me and have the initial meeting but never follow up from there; I’m always the one checking in, and they rarely respond. I’ve made it clear that I’m only looking for direct hire work with them.

    I just got a rejection after a good in person interview on Wednesday with a startup that I only lost out on because they decided to go with other candidates with more startup experience. They point blank said in the interview that they thought I was super capable. It feels like the worst catch 22 in existence – I’m applying because I want the experience, they get me through several rounds, but then ultimately pass up on me bc I don’t have the experience in the one specific area.

    Is there anything that I’m doing wrong, or that I can do better at this point? Something fucking HAS to come through soonish, right? I’ve got depression and anxiety that I’m managing with meds and therapy, but I’m really feeling worn down.

    1. einahpets*

      Are there any professional organizations focused on the work that you want to do / any former coworkers working at places you are interested in? I am pretty certain that the last job I got (a little bigger than a start-up, but still generally small) was mostly through the power of networking. And with smaller companies the known entity can be easier to take a chance on than an unknown one. At least in my industry, the small companies/project people are working on will change but you’ll almost always run into someone you know from a former company.

      Which is kind of a sucky answer (sorry), but when you said that one job was given to someone with start-up experience I got the sense there may have been a networking thing happening there.

      1. Hannah*

        The only thing I can think of is maybe networking events for startups at this stage?

        One that I got through three interviews, and a final “audition” of sorts (where I did tasks for the dude but got paid) was between me and one other person, and he went with the person with tech experience for easier onboarding. This most recent one said that the candidates they were moving on had startup experience. So I don’t think it’s a networking thing?

        1. einahpets*

          I can only speak from my experience recently, but being told that someone has more ‘startup experience’ can also mean that it was between you and another person Wakeen, and someone at the start up was like “Oh hey, I worked with Wakeen at such-and-such a few years back”.

          Networking can also mean just checking out / checking in with coworkers (that you respected/worked well with) who have left the company you are at now for other things, and if you are comfortable with it, asking if they know of any openings anywhere. As an introvert myself, I know how much it sucks, but it also can reveal stuff you didn’t know about and potentially a position where you do have the ‘known quantity’ element.

          1. einahpets*

            If you aren’t on LinkedIn or have an out of date profile, that’d be the place I’d recommend starting. I found it to be a helpful low-stress way of reconnecting with old (2-3 years ago) coworkers in my most recent job search.

          2. einahpets*

            And also, on the topic of LinkedIn — you mentioned making a good impression on the last job interview / that it was between you and another person. If you are comfortable with it, you can always try and connect with the interviewers/hiring managers on LinkedIn too.

            Don’t do it with the intention of getting the job eventually or before you know whether or not you’ve got the job you interviewed with, but I have found it is a completely low-stakes way of networking; if the interviewers don’t want to connect they don’t have to accept your request.

            But if someday they know a connection who has a need for someone with your skillset (or Wakeen doesn’t work out), they have an easy / low stakes way of connecting back to you to say ‘hey Hannah, is this something you might be interested in?’

            1. Hannah*

              I am connected with similar people on LinkedIn currently, yes. (The most recent interview connected with me before I’d even been invited to a phone interview, which was… interesting.) And I am starting to reach out to some connections.

    2. Thlayli*

      Are you looking at jobs that are a little bit of a reach for you? Could you lower your expectations slightly?

      1. Hannah*

        I’ve got seven years of office experience, and 5 of executive assistant. I’m applying to EA/admin assistant/office manager jobs that ask for an equivalent amount of experience. I don’t think they’re out of reach, to my knowledge.

    3. LDP*

      Maybe you could try networking even just with friends? I got my current job at a large property management company because a friend from college recommended me. I know that at least in this company if someone is recommended by a current employee (even if they live and work at a different location), your resume gets moved to the top, and you’re much more likely to be hired. So, maybe reach out to friends and see if they know if their companies are hiring, or even see for yourself if their company is hiring for a position that fits what you’re looking for and ask if they’ll recommend you?

  84. Jady*

    A good news update. A few weeks ago I posted looking for advice to say “I want a raise or else.” after doing some extreme (and measurable) work throughout the year far beyond my responsibilities, and not getting a raise after asking for multiple years.

    Well, turns out my yearly review got a ‘perfect score’. Those were boss’s words. I ended up getting a pretty nice raise. Horray!

  85. Drew*

    Today in Drew’s hot tips: Don’t contact former coworkers, including your boss, and ask them to sign generic recommendation letters and return them to you … especially not when those letters contain endorsements of your talents and praise for your achievements that you should know isn’t how your coworkers and boss truly feel … because you got fired for NOT having those qualities.

  86. Sm-access!*

    I would err on the side of formality in a cover letter–especially in education, since we all seem to be so hung up on titles in academe. Once you are hired, it’s a different story….but for a cover letter, they are peers only in age, not in station.

  87. Pancakes*

    Any advice for going into a 3 month new-hire review? My last workplace didn’t really bother with reviews (which was not great) and I didn’t have a new hire one. My boss has already said that the feedback will be good and she’s happy with my performance and contributions, so I’m not worried, but I’d love any tips or things to think about beforehand.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I like to use the new-hire review as a way to check-in on how training is going and if there are any areas that the new hire thinks the training hasn’t been enough. As a new hire, I’d want to talk about ways to start getting involved in longer-term projects (if that’s applicable to the role) and what I’ve seen so far as areas that I think I can make the most impact in the work. (For example, the first 3 months of my current job, I was able to observe a lot of the event planning processes my team has in place and I identified some areas that my prior experience could help flesh out better.)

  88. Sarah_with_a_H*

    Resume question:

    My title and job description don’t match (think planner vs. analyst). Obviously, I need to use my official job title on my resume, but is anything else I should do aside from clearly listing my role & accomplishments to highlight my true job duties? Is this something best addressed in the cover letter? I am working with my supervisor to change title & job description to better reflect my actual role, but it is a slow process.

    Thanks!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Can you list it on your resume as “Official Job Title (What Title Should Be)”? So like, “Llama Diet Planner (Llama Diet Analyst)”?

  89. no Name*

    Something happened on a work trip. I am so embarrassed. I am ashamed to show my face at work. It has taken me over an hour just to write this……

    ……I went to a conference in another country. My colleague from work was there too. He had been at a different conference before so we didn’t fly there from the same city but we were flying home from the same city. The flight home was a different airline than my flight there. The airline home made me take 2 seats because of my weight. He got bumped from his seat. I’m senior to him and I went home first. It was a stupid decision I should have let him go first and I stayed. He got left a foreign country for almost 2 days until the next flight. I had the petty cash with me. He had a corporate credit card but since he wasn’t the senior person on the trip it was only approved for small expenses. He couldn’t get a hotel with it. He has to live in the airport for almost 2 days with nothing rto eat and no luggage. His sister had to take a payday loan to wire him money for a new ticket because it was a Sunday and no one from the company was at work. I was so embarrassed I never told our boss or anyone that I took his seat so I could fly. I got written up for not telling him which I know I deserve. I have so much so shame. He is telling everyone what happened and our boss, his boss and HR say he can’t get in trouble for telling people about an actual situation that happened to him. I know there is gossip about me and my weight. I’m ashamed I made such a dumb decision and that my weight has gotten so bad. I also shouldn’t have bought a cheaper airline ticket so I could have more petty cash for the trip. If I stayed with the original company approved airline none of this would have happened. I took a sick day today because I couldn’t face anyone st work but there is a meeting Monday I need to be there for and can’t miss. I’m so embarrassed. Even writing this here was hard and I couldn’t use my name.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      The sooner you own your mistake to everyone involved — especially the coworker stranded at the airport — the better.

      Your company should have had better systems in place to take care of him, whether that was immediately approving a larger limit on his corporate card, telling him to use his personal card and expediting reimbursement, or whatever. Yes, you screwed up, but it seems really extreme that all of this happened to him because of it.

      That being said…you screwed up, and he was massively inconvenienced, so I think you should tell him, as uncomfortable as it is, how sorry you are that all of this happened to him. Can you get the company to give him something for what he went through? A (substantial) gift card? Some comp time? Full reimbursement to his sister for any interest on the payday loan? Use whatever political capital you have.

      I think that the more you can show people you’re sorry and mortified that your mistake proved to be so expensive for this person, the better. You should also advocate for better systems in place so that employees aren’t stuck in this position again — what if he’d just been bumped from the flight because the airline decided to? Would he have had the same problem? Maybe you can turn this into a teaching moment for your company about why their policies aren’t employee-friendly.

    2. Imaginary Number*

      So one of you had to be bumped because of the seat situation and you made a poor judgement call in not letting the more junior person (who didn’t have access to travel funds) take the first flight. That’s embarrassing and not great, but by itself isn’t the sort of thing that can’t be fixed with a sincere apology. I think you’re definitely on the right track in being willing to acknowledge your mistake.

      My concern is that is sounds like he ended up having to pay for a new ticket, which I don’t understand if he was simply bumped to a later flight. Or was it that he literally gave up his ticket, not just that he was bumped to a later flight. He definitely needs to be reimbursed for all expenses. It’s pretty outrageous that a company wouldn’t have any sort of plan if a flight gets canceled or something like that.

      1. Starryemma*

        Yeah, exactly this.

        I think the weight stuff is probably what’s making you feel extra crappy about this, but it really shouldn’t be something that matters. It’s just like what Imaginary Number said- you went before a junior person, who didn’t have access to extra cash. To me it kind of just sounds like a comedy of errors, most of which you weren’t responsible for.

        How would you have known that it would take him 2 days to get a new flight?

        And totally seconding the comment that it should be the company that’s embarrassed that they don’t have a plan for how to help their staff if they get bumped from a flight and don’t have capacity to pay for a hotel because the corporate card doesn’t work. It should have been something where he should have been able to call the company for help (either them paying for a hotel online or over the phone for him, them wiring him money, them approving him to use the corporate card, etc etc).

        I think you’re not really in the wrong here. It super sucks that people are being jerks about it, and gossiping about your weight. But I really think you didn’t do much wrong, if anything. Maybe you should have offered him your seat, but how could you have known how long he would have been stranded at the airport?

      2. JamieS*

        I think airlines make people buy two tickets and then reimburse (maybe???) one of the seats afterwards so he may have had to literally give OP his ticket

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Well, hold on a minute. The airline made you take up two seats, right? And your outbound airline didn’t? This is on them. If they decided to bump someone because of that extra seat, then they should have paid for your co-worker’s accommodation if they couldn’t reschedule him on a flight (any flight that would get him closer to home) that same day. You say you shouldn’t have bought a cheaper ticket, but your co-worker also chose to buy a cheaper ticket, didn’t he? And why on earth was he stuck with no luggage? The airline wouldn’t get it off the plane for him when he was bumped? This airline sounds absolutely terrible. I do feel a bit bad for your co-worker being stranded– that’s never a picnic– but the airline should have had a plan in place. People get bumped from flights all the time, it’s not like that’s an unusual occurrence.

      Then there’s your co-worker. He’s allowed to tell people what happened (he was stranded, after all), but it sounds like he’s putting a lot of blame on you, and for that, I’m sorry. I’m also giving him a little bit of side-eye. I realize that many people don’t have credit cards, but I don’t know any personally, and I’m curious why he wouldn’t put accommodation on a personal card and work out some kind of reimbursement with the company later.

      Someone else will probably have more concrete and better advice, but all I can say is that I hope you can find some kindness for yourself this weekend. I don’t think you’re entirely to blame (if at all) for this fiasco.

      1. neverjaunty*

        I don’t get giving the co-worker side-eye. Maybe he doesn’t have credit cards because he had a medical bankruptcy. Maybe his cards are maxed out because he had to get car repairs. Maybe he’s just broke. It doesn’t really matter why – the company should have covered for him being on a business trip.

        1. Clare*

          Yes, it’s really unnecessary to judge the coworker for his finances. I know people who don’t have credit cards for various reasons, most of them grew up in poor families and didn’t build up credit while they were young, and now have tons of student loans so might not be able to qualify (or just don’t want even more debt).

      2. Mike C.*

        What the heck are you even talking about? There’s no reason to ever expect an employee to EVER front business costs.

        If someone is paying business costs, it better be because they own part of the company.

        1. Yorick*

          I agree that companies should front the costs, but it is so, so common that employees have to pay and then get reimbursed.

    4. fposte*

      Oh, no! I’m so sorry–that’s just a bad series of dominos in there. Most places it would have been mildly annoying worst–how unfortunate that this happened on a full flight out of a place with infrequent flights to boot!

      I would try if you can to take your weight out of this. It would have been the same situation if you’d had a leg in a cast and needed two seats. The issue isn’t that you needed two seats, the issue is that meant that somebody was left behind without corporate support, and that you made a change to travel arrangements for reasons that corporate might not consider sufficient.

      How bad this is depends, IMHO, on the hows and whys of the last two–whether you should (not necessarily did, but should or not) reasonably have known that he had no ability to charge higher amounts, and whether it made business sense for you to change those travel arrangements. However, I think no matter how bad it is, your best response is going to be facing it–on your own bat doing heavy-dut

      I’m sorry you’re facing this, and good luck.y apologizing to your colleague (fruit basket, wine, whatever, might not be a bad idea in addition to the written apology) and asking to meet with your boss to discuss how to handle your error and its consequences. Go in Monday planning to take action, not planning to hide.

      Good luck, and I’m sorry you’re facing this.

      2. zora*

        Yes, I agree with this and this is the key to me: “somebody was left behind without corporate support”

        This is exactly the reason we have a travel agency for corporate travel: because they are staffed 24/7 for emergencies. Regardless of the reasons or the airline, our travel agency would have booked a new flight and hotel for the stranded employee, and the money would have been worked out later.

        I think the fault here goes to:
        1) The airline. Why on earth did they not rebook him and put him in a hotel since they were the ones bumping him?
        2) Your company for not making sure staff are fully supported when traveling for business, and yes, that sometimes means the company eats some extra costs.
        3) Maayyybbeeee you could have helped him out by giving him the petty cash, but in a crazy situation like this a lot of people don’t think quickly in the moment and make the exact perfect decisions. How could you have known exactly what was going to happen to him after he was bumped from your flight?

        1. VelociraptorAttack*

          To be fair to the employee left behind, I think “how could you have known exactly what was going to happen to him” is exactly the point here. I’d argue that as the more senior of the two, it’s your responsibility to know what will happen and not leave someone stranded in a foreign airport with no resources.

          1. zora*

            Yes, I also feel badly for the employee who was left behind. But my point is that the OP should stop beating herself up. This was a crazy situation involving a lot of shaming that she couldn’t have foreseen happening, so she reacted in the moment and that is totally understandable. It sucks for both her and the employee left behind, but I don’t think the OP should feel primarily responsible.

        2. Clare*

          I agree that there is fault with the airline and company, but the employee definitely should not have been left behind, especially with no resources. I can understand why he’s so upset, this must have been an incredibly traumatizing experience for him. I can’t imagine being stuck in an airport in a foreign country, with no resources to even buy food and being told I need to buy an entire new ticket that I can’t afford, and no one at the company to call for help.

          1. zora*

            But it’s not actually the OP’s fault that there was no one at the company to call for help. That is a larger structural problem with the company, and her taking all the guilt and shame on herself is not going to solve that problem.

    5. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I don’t have advice for most of it.

      However.

      Your coworkers gossiping about your weight? That is NOT okay. Not at all. Not even a little. Sure, he can’t get in trouble for talking about an actual situation. But if he’s feeding into the weight gossip, that needs to stop.

    6. no Name*

      I was the one in charge of our tickets being that I was the senior person, not him. So the company is lying it at my feet for not using a company approved airline. He has no say.

      He had to give up his ticket for me. Which is why the airline isn’t reimbursing the company or gave him another flight.

      He doesn’t have a credit card. He had a debit card with not enough funds. When I mentioned that if he had a personal credit card he could have used it I was sent home for the rest of the day (this happened yesterday) after being written up because my boss said it was my fault for not using a company approved airline, making him give up his ticket, taking the petty cash with me and not telling anyone at the company. I was blamed and I know this was my fault.

      My coworker did not accept my apology and per HR I’m no longer allowed to talk to him or “meddle” in the situation. He said he will come after me for the ticket because the company won’t pay him since I knowingly broke the company policy. I am ashamed at how I acted.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Wait, the company won’t reimburse him for his expenses?? Why? Are they telling you to pay for it?

        So you didn’t use a company approved airline. Fine, that was a mistake. But it’s relatively small potatoes, and your company should be trying to make it right.

        Were you in good standing with your company before this? And were they in good standing with you — meaning, have you previously found them to be reasonable and well-run? Because the way they’re handling this is bonkers.

        1. no Name*

          Hi Alison. I never had any real concerns about the company before this. They aren’t telling me I have to pay him. They are only saying that they wont. I don’t know what is up. I realize I royally screwed up here and I’m ashamed.

          1. TCO*

            It’s absolutely unacceptable that your company isn’t reimbursing your coworker. This was a business expense incurred during work travel through no fault of your coworker–that means that the company should be making your coworker whole no matter what. If your company wants to go after you for the expense, they might be able to do so (I’m not sure), but either way they should not be putting that burden on your coworker.

            Your shame might be blinding you to how insane your company is being. The bottom line is that your coworker is being financially penalized through no fault of his own, and that’s not normal company behavior. I understand that you might not be able to push this up the ladder because you’ve clearly been told to stay out of it. But know that your company is not being good to either you or your coworker, and that other workplaces would not have failed their employees on so many counts here.

            Pay your coworker back if you can–you shouldn’t have to, but it would be the best thing to do.

          2. fposte*

            I think you *may* have screwed up, depending on the deets, but for sure your company is. Don’t assume you need to be guilty for everything they’re doing wrong.

            2. nope nope nope*

              If you read no name’s comments they *did* screw up. They knew their coworker had a card with a low limit, no personal card and no petty cash. OP left him behind, made him give up his seat and took the cash with her. She didn’t tell the company he was stranded when she got back.

              The company sucks for not paying him back for his sister’s loan but OP messed up badly here too.

              1. AvonLady Barksdale*

                Yeah, this wasn’t clear to me in the initial post. I was imagining traveling more as peers, where each was responsible for his and her own travel and needs. It sounds much more entwined after no name’s additional comments.

                I still think the company should reimburse the junior employee. If nothing else, it will remove the burden from the junior employee and switch the focus to the judgment calls no name made and what the company can do to avoid or resolve this in the future.

                1. Luna*

                  I hope the company does reimburse the employee, but if they don’t, then NoName I would recommend paying the employee back yourself if that’s possible.

                  This company’s travel policies do need serious examination. I have never heard of a situation where colleagues traveling together were booked on the same reservation. Each individual needs her own ticket# and own reservation#. I’ve also always had some options presented to me when traveling (and given others multiple options when booking travel for them), rather than having another person just do it for me.

                  And the company should definitely be able to lift the limit on the corporate card! I can’t believe it was so restrictive that the employee couldn’t even buy food at the airport! There needs to be an emergency number for employees to call while traveling, the fact that it was a weekend shouldn’t have been an issue.

                2. zora*

                  +1 to Luna’s post. The fact that there is no traveling support on the weekends is ridiculous. There should be some system in place for handling any cancelled flight for any reason 24/7, including booking a new flight, booking a hotel and removing credit card restrictions. ESPECIALLY for international travel.

                  If the company doesn’t want to have employees be available on call, then you contract to a travel agency. That is how millions of other companies do it.

                  I think the OP made some questionable decisions in the moment, but the company is handling this terribly.

          3. neverjaunty*

            I may be missing this, but why did you leave the co-worker behind? Was it shame about your weight, or wanting to get home first, or what? I’m not asking to shame you, but figuring out why you made this decision may go a long way towards helping you figure out what you can do to fix it and why.

            1. fposte*

              What she says later suggests shame and panic, but I think you’re right that it might be worth some more scrutiny. Travel meds, late nights, alcohol, illness, sustained stresss are some possibilities to consider, for instance. If I’m guessing correctly at “I got written up for not telling him” and her walking away with the cash, she may even have boarded the plane without notifying him that he wasn’t going to travel, so he may have found out only when he tried to board the plane. Which is an ouch.

              I’m also still thinking that the decision to rebook flights to get more petty cash could be a problem in its own right, especially if the employer doesn’t agree with the rationale, let alone the consequences. So I think if there was a specific and business-defensible petty cash need that couldn’t be covered by the cash you had or your corporate card, that’s something to make a point of here just to make it clear it wasn’t for pleasure.

              1. Clare*

                I read the “I got written up for not telling him” part as not telling the boss what had happened when she got back to work, but if the coworker didn’t even know about getting bumped then yeah, that’s even more of an ouch.

                I’m also still unclear about the relationship between flight cost and petty cash. Those seem like they should be too separate issues- petty cash should be determined by the number of days away, not by flight costs. Seems like another part of the travel policy that needs revising.

                1. fposte*

                  Oh, you’re right, it could just mean the boss, too. I hope she did at least manage to tell her co-worker.

              2. Eye of Sauron*

                I think what’s worse is that the OP didn’t tell anyone at the company. So basically left this guy in a foreign country and then didn’t even call someone to say… OMG Fergus is stuck in Timbuktu with no money or way home.

                1. Luna*

                  Yeah, I think that is the main reason why the company is reacting so harshly. I’m sure they could have done something to get him back had they known what was happening (at least I hope they would have!). Tough I still don’t get why they are punishing the coworker by not reimbursing him- maybe they think by doing this NoName will step in to pay the extra costs?

        2. Forking Great Username*

          Is it really small potatoes when the reason for booking a non-approved airline was to get more petty cash OP could spend on herself?

          1. Anna*

            It’s so baffling to me! If we take her feelings out of the equation for a minute and just look at actions we have: changed the flight booking to make cash, took both seats home and did not rebook coworker, took cash and phone home, took credit card home, did not notify anyone at home office of a stranded coworker, does not seem to understand why coworker/bosses may not be happy about this – I am honestly shocked they still have a job! The only way I can even imagine not firing someone who did this is if they demonstrated a true understanding of their actions and enough mental stability to suggest it wouldn’t happen the next time they have a bad day

      2. Murphy*

        The fact that the company won’t pay him for the ticket is ridiculous. He’s out what I’m guessing is a lot of money through no fault of his own.

        But if they won’t, he shouldn’t have to come after you for it. You should pay him.

      3. fposte*

        They are being whacko. Is there a concern that the airline switch and petty cash decision was for your personal gain? I’m trying to figure out why they’d be so punitive.

        1. Forking Great Username*

          OP pretty much spells that out in another comment – that they went with a non-approved airline so that they could pocket the petty cash. Which is a pretty big issue many of the comments seem to gloss over. THAT is why the company is pissed. Because this presumably would’ve gone differently if OP, who is in a senior role, had followed company rules on booking the airline.

      4. Luna*

        I’m confused about why he “had” to give up his ticket for you? How can the airline force someone to give up their ticket without providing reasonable accommodation/reimbursement?

        I also don’t understand why this company doesn’t have a finance department that approves travel expenses, because if they approved the flights then it isn’t just on you.

        But yeah, it does sound like some bad decisions were made in the moment, so as others have said the best course of action will be to sincerely apologize. I would definitely avoid making any statements about what the coworker should have done or commenting on his personal finances. If HR won’t let you talk directly to the coworker then maybe apologize through HR or your boss instead?

        1. Murphy*

          I’m guessing that their flights were booked together on the same reservation, so when no name had a reservation for 2 seats and was told that they needed 3 seats total that this was the solution.

          1. VelociraptorAttack*

            You might be on to something, that makes sense because then it’s not a “we overbooked” situation but a “you underbooked” one.

    7. Competent Commenter*

      I think you’re putting way too much on yourself here and your company is behaving abominably.

      If you knew he didn’t have money for a ticket and couldn’t use his corporate card, and you had cash on hand, it wasn’t nice to not resolve that. But I assume that this happened in a rush as you were trying to board and that you had to make a quick decision. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the more senior person being the one to board. I’m not all that into hierarchies but hey, in this case it is a guide. The more senior person is presumably paid more and should get back to work sooner. In addition, who’s to say that you wouldn’t have been bumped from another flight over needing two seats if that flight was full? Your return could have gotten even more complicated than his would have been as someone who only required one seat, if that makes sense. Also, if your coworker was bumped because the flight was overbooked, that would not have been your fault. Essentially here by changing the rules and saying you needed two seats, the airline decided to bump your colleague, not you. This is such a ridiculous situation with the company blaming you and not wanting to reimburse and it’s horrible you’re being shamed for it. I’m so angry on your behalf.

      1. no Name*

        I knew he had a card with a limit and no personal card and I had all the petty cash. I just wanted to get out of there. The people at the airline counter kept loudly mentioning my weight. I put my own shame over what I should have done.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, that’s not good. But it’s also an illustration of how shame is working against you and not for you, so try not to embrace it now. And it also isn’t enough to get the company off the hook for covering his ticket.

          Can you explain what was going on with the whole airline-change-for-more-petty-cash plan?

        2. Eye of Sauron*

          Wait… you left a lower level employee in a foreign country who you knew didn’t have the means to get home or even get a hotel for the night. You knowingly went against your companies travel policy to have more spending money. That whole message didn’t exactly come out in the first post.

          Yeah, at this point your only option is to write an apology to be given to HR for delivery with the offer to personally reimburse him for his sister’s loan including all fees.

        3. neverjaunty*

          One place to put some of those feelings would be the airline. It’s one thing for them to change your booking, another thing to make snarky comments about your weight. F those idiots. Airlines are in a tough market for customers, and I doubt they will be happy that their ticket agents were creeps.

          1. fposte*

            They absolutely shouldn’t. However, if this was a discount airline or a national carrier from what sounds like a remote country, it might not care.

            This is one of those Swiss cheese theory of failure moments, I think. It took a lot of different things to come together to make this happen.

            1. Eye of Sauron*

              A lot (if not most) airlines have written policies for passengers who may need more room due to size.

              And to be fair it was an embarrassing situation for the OP so their perception of the way that the Airline employees were talking about it may be worse than what it was. I can’t say that I’d be comfortable with anyone talking about my weight. And if they did I can totally imagine myself feeling like everything was amplified.

              1. fposte*

                Yes, a lot of them absolutely do–but yer Ryanair or yer Worse Than Aeroflot Air types are not likely to be very unhappy about this even if it’s technically not policy. (I’m guessing the OP was able to fit in the seat going to the destination and didn’t realize that her cheaper airline had much narrower seats.) And no argument about how miserable it would feel in the moment, even if the gate agents were being polite.

                1. neverjaunty*

                  Norwegian, too.

                  But sometimes they do care or have no choice but to pretend they do.

                2. fposte*

                  @neverjaunty–yeah, it certainly won’t hurt to complain to the airline, especially if they have a reasonable US foothold.

        4. Jennifer Thneed*

          That’s pretty bad of the front-gate people. I know you were in a foreign country, but still, can you contact that airline about how this was handled? (Which is to say: very badly on their part.)

          And was it a domestic airline? If so, well, in the US we’re in a good place right now for public outrage over airline shenanigans. Which this certainly was.

          1. no Name*

            They didn’t do anything wrong with the tickets since we had 2 tickets on our reservation and they gave me 2 tickets. I complained about the treatment re: my weight but it’s not an American owned airline and in the country I was in overweight is extra stigmatized and it’s acceptable to treat people badly due to weight so they didn’t care.

            1. Jennifer Thneed*

              I disagree that they didn’t do anything wrong, fwiw. On a US airplane, that would never have happened because the passenger is tied to the ticket so strongly. You have to show an ID to claim the seat you’ve already paid for.

              Did you complain to the actual airline management? Or just to the gate-attendant people? I don’t care whether that country’s culture stigmatizes overweight (which, hello, so does ours! We just also have a strong culture of commercialism), that’s not the point, the point is that they were alienating a paying customer like crazy.

              (And I’m really really irritated at the gate staff on your behalf. Petty tyrants are a terrible thing.)

              1. no Name*

                This wasn’t an American airline. I spoke to their headquarters. We had 2 seats on our reservation. They gave us the 2 seats that we paid for. I had never flown the airline before and didn’t know the 2 seats for overweight people policy.

                I agree 100% that we stigmatize weight in America. In the country we were in it is legal to not hire overweight people and by law the government and companies are allowed to weigh their employees and send those who are to fat to a health coach. The airline people did not care at all when I talked to headquarters. I appreciate your support and trying to help.

    8. Eye of Sauron*

      Oh boy. Okay I’m going to say this as gently as I possibly can. First off this has nothing to do with your weight (I’m not discounting the additional emotion that it’s bringing to the situation, but at the center it’s not the biggest problem) the employee could have been bumped for many reasons that had nothing to do with you. It does have a lot to do with one of the most basic tenets of leadership… you always* put the lower employees first.

      I’m going to assume that everything here happened pretty fast with the bumping and that might have been a mitigating factor. This coupled with the inadequate infrastructure of your company for travelers compounded the problem. You know where you screwed up (yep we all do from time to time) but now you have to work past this to be and advocate for future employees.

      Yes, the employee is allowed to tell people what happened, but, he has to be professional. I understand that this is adding to the embarrassment, but how else is he to explain his 2 day absence?

      Please be kind to yourself, acknowledge your mistake (which you have), own it and then learn from it, and lastly use it as a catalyst to drive change.

      *Always being reasonable. In this case if you had to fly out to attend a critical multi-million dollar on the line meeting then the rule wouldn’t apply

    9. LibbyG*

      It seems like the other comments have dissected the situation and mapped some of your options well enough.

      I just want to offer my empathy. I can imagine being in a situation where I’m utterly exhausted after traveling internationally and attending a conference and all these snarky airline people are insulting my body. I would feel just SO desperate to get on that plane, to get away from those people and from ALL people and get to my own home. Then, the plane takes off and the full structure of the situation gradually becomes apparent. I’m not confident I would do the right things in that situation. I feel weepy and panicky just imagining it!

      I hope you can quickly get some distance from this painful experience and forgive yourself your missteps. I hope sharing your experience with this community helps.

      1. Marina*

        I think paying attention to the thought processes and reactions that led to the mistakes and errors of judgement is a good idea. Learn from this situation.

    10. Kaybee*

      OP, yes, you made mistakes, which you have owned up to. But as nearly everyone else has said, your company has failed here in a lot of ways. First, you shouldn’t have been able to go rogue and make reservations on an unapproved airline in order to have more petty cash without anyone noticing. I’ve worked at a number of organizations across the private/nonprofit/government sectors, and I’m stymied trying to figure out how that was even possible. How does a lower expense on a corporate credit card result in more cash in your pocket? Does someone just give you $X000 for the trip up front to cover everything, including what comes through on the CC? Does no one have to sign off on travel plans? What was your plan for when you had to turn in receipts, or does your organization not require that? Second, as so many others have noted, your organization should have had off-hours support for travelers. Third, as everyone has said, your organization should reimburse your coworker. Fourth, while I understand your reasons for not contacting your boss, what are the dynamics of your workplace that led your coworker to not contact his boss, your boss, or anyone from your organization while he was stuck in a foreign country for two days? Fifth, while I imagine it would be hard to avoid gossip about stranding a coworker, there’s no excuse for your colleagues to be gossiping about your body.

      It might be time to consider job-searching, not because of this incident, but because your workplace seems to encourage dysfunction. Its policies seem ill-thought out, it doesn’t seem supportive of its employees at all – to the point where a stranded employee can’t rely on the company and instead has to turn to family to become unstranded, and isn’t reimbursed to boot, and your coworkers seem pretty juvenile to be gossiping about your body. I know it’s hard to summon the energy when you’re feeling pretty bad about yourself, but for your sake, I hope you’ll think about trying to find a better, more supportive workplace.

      1. no Name*

        I had his work phone that we had been loaned for the trip. Our travel plans have to be approved by HR but I changed it afterwords. I’m at the level I can book my own travel and travel for those junior to me. You are correct that we get an allotment of money for the trip and I book a cheaper unapproved airline against policy. He didn’t have money to make any calls and the company doesn’t accept collect calls. Bottom line is I should have told the company and our boss when I got back, but I didn’t and I’m ashamed if it. Thank you for the support.

        1. Luna*

          Oh man. Okay, well I understand now why the company is reacting the way they are. I’m sorry you’re going through a hard time and it’s good that you are able to recognize your mistakes, but yeah this is bad. You absolutely need to pay your coworker back for all the extra costs. It’s also worth thinking about what other issues were going on that led you to change the travel plans when you knew it was unauthorized.

          1. fposte*

            Yes, I’m still really puzzled by that change, and I wonder if the company had issues not only with the unauthorized change but in the reason for it.

            1. Eye of Sauron*

              I’m pretty confident my company would slap me on the wrist for going against travel policy. Would probably earn a verbal warning.

              But coupled with the extra cash (not sure if that’s accounted for on the back end somehow and returned to the company) and the coworker abandonment I’m pretty sure I’d be fired.

              I hate to say it, but will, I think the OP needs to be prepared for the worst here.

        2. Eye of Sauron*

          So you had his work phone too, after you left?

          OP, I’m really trying here but this had to be unimaginable for your coworker.
          He had no phone, no money, no place to stay, and no ticket home. Please tell me you at least told him you were leaving him. Did he know he was getting bumped before you got on the plane? Did you at least have that conversation or did the airline tell him?

          1. Pollygrammer*

            To add to this: OP, you’re saying “ashamed” and “embarrassed,” but I have to admit I’m not reading a lot of actually, empathy-driven sympathy over what actually happened to your coworker, who ended up in an incredibly scary, possibly dangerous situation. You literally let him go stranded and hungry.

            I sympathize with you, I really do, but while you may feel like you did something very foolish and thoughtless, he and other coworkers are probably perceiving that you did something narcissistic and downright cruel.

        3. neverjaunty*

          OP, this is reminding me a lot of the letter writer who was jealous of a younger and prettier new employee. Your shame over your body seems to be so overwhelming that not only did you make a terrible decision, you tried to cover it up and (it sounds like) to keep the person you hurt from telling anyone. And as someone else noted you’re focused on your own shame – understandably! – but to the exclusion, it seems, of accepting that this really hurt someone else.

          Please consider some immediate and intensive treatment for your body issues; this is a very painful and expensive wake-up call that they are taking over your life.

        4. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

          So…holy cow.

          Everyone has already said what I’ve been thinking, but No Name – why’d you take the guy’s phone? That’s the really head scratching thing here, to me. I mean, I follow that it was a stressful situation for you and you made a lot of bad decisions, but it seems like he should have at least had his own work phone with him.

          Unless you were sharing a phone. But you specifically said “his.”

        5. AcademiaNut*

          I agree with other posters that the weight is a really, really minor part of the problem, particularly with all the additional details.

          You left your junior coworker in a foreign airport. You took his ticket, the petty cash, and his phone with you. You knew he had no money or credit card with him and no way to book a new ticket. You didn’t tell your employer that he was stranded, but abandoned him completely. And the reason this whole debacle kicked off was because you took approved travel reservations, and switched them to unapproved reservations without your employer’s permission and against policy.

          The only thing you can do at this point is apologize profusely *and* pay him back for the ticket. Apologize profusely to your boss, and acknowledge that you were to blame. The only way to repair something like this is to honestly and fully accept responsibility, make what amends you can, and wait for time and good performance to overcome the hit to your reputation.

        6. valentine*

          I really feel for you, no Name. Everyone in this has mistreated you and that’s horrific. I absolutely understand the need to flee from people personally attacking you and piling on. This is especially terrible if you are someone who needs quiet space and time to think in order to make the best decision. What you did seems the overall best outcome. Even if the petty cash was enough for a hotel, food, and another ticket, there’s no guarantee you would’ve left in circumstances as good as your colleague, especially with the staff’s prejudice. Even if you could’ve bought a third ticket in the moment, you weren’t authorized to do so. The airline was wrong in not ensuring you knew the policy at the time of sale. They are the ones who took your colleague’s seat. I can’t tell if you wish you had left him the money or the phone, or called your supervisor on a weekend, but these are things people learn by experiencing crises and planning for worst-case scenarios. HR should have provided a “What to do if…” list, including how to contact the embassy. Now, they should fight the airline for their money, reimburse your colleague, and tell your colleagues to shut up about your body. They could look into the insufficient petty cash amount that led you to choose a cheaper flight. I think you did the best you could with the situation and (thorough lack of) support you had at the time and you don’t owe anyone, especially not financially. I hope your home is a soft place to land, that it is a place of peace and comfort for you.

          1. Hellanon*

            I have to disagree – the OP held all the cards here, so to speak, and should have sent the colleague home first and rebooked two seats for themself on a later flight. Presumably they had the resources to do so, which they KNEW the colleague did not – instead, they elected to abandon their colleague with no money and no resources in a foreign airport? I don’t care how uncomfortable somebody saying mean things makes you feel, your first duty as a manager is to see to the safety of your reports. At minimum the OP needs to fully reimburse the colleague & the colleague’s sister, maybe out of the funds they skimmed by rebooking the flights – there is no perspective on this that justifies leaving the colleague out of pocket after forcing them to sleep in an airport for two days.

          2. No*

            This comment was made a few months ago, but no. Way to totally excuse everything OP did. Her actions were unacceptable and she is barely taking any blame. Her shame stems from how she feels about herself, not what she actually did. I don’t understand the apologists here.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      This really sucks, OP.

      More than a few of us have made a mistake and paid dearly for it. Own the parts that are yours to own, make amends as best you can. It may come down to resigning for you, in part because you do sound truly humiliated by the whole thing. I can see where that level of upset could prevent a person from remaining at a job.

      You are not the first person to step in crap, nor the second person. Yes, people will gossip about people especially when that person is higher up the ladder. So that is to be expected. That sounds cold of me to say that. I have found it helpful to know that the higher up we go in management the more visibility we have and the more people will judge us. People love to judge their leaders, even quasi-leaders.

      When you come back from this ( in a while you will regroup yourself and continue on) pretend there is a little camera following you around. Because that is what leadership of any sort is, you come under the scrutiny of everyone around you. It’s helpful to aware of this rather than not realize this is how it works and get caught up in a tangled mess later. All eyes are on their leaders, that’s not being paranoid, rather that’s being sensible.

      As far as your weight concerns you can use the go-to statement, “Please do not comment on my body.” I think framed that way, it will jar most people awake and they will stop.

      Let us know how it goes for you.

    12. Totally Minnie*

      This is a terrible situation to be in, OP. I’m really sorry about that.

      I think you may need to prepare yourself for the possibility that this was a mistake you can’t come back from at this company and with these particular coworkers. I’m not saying this to be mean or to shame you in any way, and I really do feel for you in this situation. But there are times when a line gets crossed in a way that you can’t take back, and this might be one of those times for the people you work with. If that turns out to be the case, you may be better off starting a job search so you can start somewhere new with a clean slate. You sound like you’ve learned a lot from this experience and you’re ready to do some serious soul searching and work on your personal growth, and that’s a really good sign for your future.

      Just remember, you are more than just this bad decision. You are more than the things that make you feel embarrassed and ashamed. And you can take this experience and use it as a catalyst to develop yourself for the future.

  90. AdAgencyChick*

    TFW you see a full-time job posting for your dream gig (I know, I know…but this is the kind work I currently do on the side and I LOVE it)…

    …and the salary works out to be only slightly above minimum wage. In NYC.

    I know that moving into this line of work full-time (which is very hard to do; it’s super niche and a lot of people want to do it) would be a big pay cut, but I didn’t realize it would be a “take your salary back to when you were fresh out of college, working for a nonprofit, and living in a low-cost-of-living town” pay cut. Le sigh. I guess I’ll keep doing it on the side.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I just had this experience! My passion side project started to take off and I got so, so excited. Then I actually crunched the numbers and realized … they just make no sense at all. I would be way under minimum wage when you really consider the likely hours I’d be putting in – and I don’t have a backup support network to pay my insurance or my rent for me. On the other hand, it makes my dull 9-5 office job start to look pretty good haha.

  91. AnnonLurk*

    I recently got a promotion and a raise and the paper I signed said “effective March 1st”. I signed the paper March 15th (before the 16th, which is a paycycle day) . Its now March 30th and the pay difference they did give me doesn’t even cover a weeks’ worth of work, so I’ve effectively lost money from two paycycles now (March 2nd and March 16th). Should I let them know today that I was shorted pay from those two paycycles, based on the effective raise date?

    1. CatCat*

      Yes, absolutely. Your employer should be able to get this corrected, but to do that the employer needs to know the problem exists.

      Congrats on your raise and promotion!

    2. Starryemma*

      Yes. I’d approach it as an administrative oversight, and say something like “My raise took effect March 1, but i haven’t yet received the pay from my raise from March 1-30 (or whatever). How will my back pay be paid? Will it be paid by increasing my next month’s check, or some other way?”

      Basically just act like you’re assuming that of course they’re going to pay you for that time, and you’re not asking whether or not they are, just how.

      1. Canadian Teapots*

        Also, in this vein, increasing a check like that can have accidental tax-deduction implications, such that AnnonLurk might end up having to wait till next year to file taxes and get a refund on the extra deduction for that pay period. But there may not be a choice if the payroll system is set up to automatically annualize whatever the face amount is on the gross pay.

        1. Natalie*

          If this is US, it almost certainly will be since that’s how our withholding tables are structured automatically.

    3. OtterB*

      I would ask in a nonconfrontational way – say that you understood the raise was to be effective March 1 and is there a procedure for you to get the retroactive pay? Because around here, at least, that’s not unusual.

    4. Short & Dumpy*

      I’m sure this is something you checked already…but just to be safe…

      What is the delay in your payroll cycle? For me, if I got a raise effective March 1, I wouldn’t see it in my paycheck until the first week in April. (pay cycle March 1 to March 15; processing March 15 to March 31, pay day first week in April…not exactly how our dates line up, but close enough to illustrate; pay checks are basically a month behind a given start date)

  92. Free Meerkats*

    Feeling a little better about the pending changes in our department (see last week’s OT, https://www.askamanager.org/2018/03/open-thread-march-23-24-2018.html#comment-1910029 .) Just out of a meeting with my boss and his boss. She’s still leaving next week; not that I expected that to change.

    One of my main worries was what was going to happen when my boss retires. She let us know that she’s told the acting director what she/we had planned for that time, moving me into his position and she’s leaving that as part of her going-away notes. With the pending reorganization and the current efforts from City Hall to reduce headcount, our group might not end up with a manager, but be moved under another manager. She has told him if that happens, a senior position should be created for me – I’m essential to the program right now. It’s good to know that she has my back, and I hope the AD follows through. Even if he or his successor doesn’t, I have no plans on going anywhere.

  93. Inky*

    What helped you decide to stay or bail when working for a struggling company?

    My current job is really, really struggling. The owners are new to this business and this type of work altogether, and their plan wasn’t really good for this type of work. On top of that, our sector is struggling across the country, and our local customer level is dropping dramatically. We’re selling more per customer, but it’s not enough to make up for the almost quarter drop in customers. They have looked at most options and if things don’t improve soon, they’re talking about bankruptcy. This also means I am being paid under market rate, with little chance of a raise any time soon.

    All of this feels like I should bail, now, BUT … man I love this job. I love the work and my coworkers SO MUCH. I also feel a lot (probably more than is healthy) of loyalty towards the owners, and I know if I go, they cannot replace me, and will likely lose half of the remaining employees. Also, job searching for my next job would pretty much involve moving, but I don’t know where to, and that’s both expensive and stressful. As is job searching for other areas! I also struggle with serious job searching before I’ve committed to leaving, mentally. But once I do decide that I for sure want out, I’m miserable for whatever amount of time I am stuck there.

    (Also any advice on professionally telling my bosses ‘It’s great that you’re keeping me informed that everything is shit, but hearing every day about every detail of how specially everything is shit is exhausting, depressing, and STRESSING ME OUT SO MUCH.’)

    1. Junior Dev*

      Maybe start applying to things at a rate of one a week or two a month or whatever you can manage without stressing out about it, and do so with the mindset that you’re trying to explore your options rather than get a job anytime soon. At least if your industry is like mine, applications often take several months to filter through from “send in resume” to “job offer in hand” and you may know more about the direction your business is going by then.

      1. Inky*

        Applying doesn’t really stress me out, it’s more the situation of getting a job offer before I’m sure I want to leave this place. The pace of hiring around here is more like one to two weeks, max. Everyone is desperate for employees and I’ve had several places try and get me to join their team, so I’m not really worried about finding a job when/if this one dies, I’m just … struggling with the decision of how to decide when to go vs holding on to long.

        1. Natalie*

          You might as well apply and hold off on struggling with the decision of when to leave until you actually have a decision to make.

    2. Mirth & Merry*

      This doesn’t sound like it would apply to your situation but when the company started compromising safety in the name of cost-cutting. (I work in chemical manufacturing) I also realized that I was not longer doing anything new to add to the resume and I am still in the growing stage of my career.

      Maybe suggesting to you bosses that there is a once a week “unloading” of all that is happening or whatever frequency, and that is the only time you talk about that. Do other employees overhear this? Is it hurting morale/productivity to hear it constantly? Framing it as a solution to something might help.

      One thing to think about too is if you are in a position to survive a worst case scenario so to speak. Sounds like you are happy (other than the pay) and if you want to ride it out and can afford being unemployed for a few months of job searching if they have to close that can be an option to. On the flip side though, if they suddenly had to lay you off and you couldn’t shoulder it, I would keep looking. That is a very individual decision that only you can make and understand all the circumstances that play into that. It is okay to want to stay, just remember you are the person who cares most about you!

  94. Elsie*

    Anyone have any experience with working at night and going to school during the day? Any advice?

    1. NicoleK*

      During undergrad, I worked nights and attended school during the day. My suggestions:
      1. pack snacks especially if you’re running straight from class to work
      2. discreetly inquire if it’s okay to work on school assignments if you have down time
      3. If you carry your laptop to class, don’t leave it in your car while you’re at work
      4. Take naps in between classes if you’re able to
      5. Cut back on your social calendar
      6. Remember to make time for friends and family

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        I worked my way through grad school doing retail and restaurant work at night, and I think this list is great. I would add bulk shopping/cooking/freezing. It was just me for whom I was cooking, but I shopped, cooked and froze meals on Sunday nights so I could take as much on the go as I could. And ddefinitely pack a lot of snacks. My commute from work to school was almost 40 minutes so I often needed to snack in the car instead of sit down to eat.

        It also helped that I found some other people in my program were doing the same thing – having others to go through it with me was helpful when I was feeling exhausted and/or discouraged.

        Good luck!

  95. Junior Dev*

    S l o w l y working out the communication problems at work. I asked the team lead not to criticize my ideas before I’m done explaining them. I was confused by a deadline my boss gave me (it wasn’t clear what work exactly she wanted done) and I asked clarifying questions until I understood it.

    I’m realizing that most of the challenge at my job isn’t anything conceptually or technically difficult, it’s figuring out what the hell people want. Somehow putting it in those terms makes it easier to deal with.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      And that’s going to a challenge at most jobs you have. Most jobs require a fair bit of “learning how your coworkers and bosses function” and you can do that.

  96. Intern*

    So at my on call job last night, I had a colleague come up to my after my shift and basically tell me that no one likes to work with me. He said I’m come off entitled, not a team player, and that I don’t go above and beyond for other people. He added that he was telling me this because he went through something similar and wished someone had told him. Obviously I’m going to work on the perception I’m giving out and try my hardest to repair the relationships I have with my coworkers (any suggestions for that would helpful) but should I also ask my manager for feedback and see if this is something he’s noticed as well? It threw me for a loop and seemed to come out of nowhere.

    1. London Calling*

      Well, I’d say it’s your manager’s job to give you feedback, rather than a co-worker, and I have to say that his was couched in rather – playground terms, wasn’t it? ‘I’m telling you because EVERYONE ELSE HATES YOU AND DOESN’T WANT TO TALK TO YOU!’ I’d look at this as being two issues – what agenda if anything does this co-worker have (e.g are they the departmental shit-stirrer?) and how do you feel about what he said – how are your relations with co-workers?

      1. Intern*

        I thought the relationships I have with them were pretty good- being an on call position, I never know when/with whom I’m going to be working so I try to get along with everyone. But now I don’t know if I’ve been wrong about that the whole time I’ve been there (less than a year).

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, watch out for the statements “Well, EVERYONE THINKS THAT…..” Most likely it is NOT true.

        I would work both ends against the middle. See what you can think of on your own to beef up your work relationships AND talk to people who are known to give rock solid advice. You may only have your boss, so then that would be the person to talk to. Hopefully you can think of someone else who is trustworthy.

        One place I worked, we had a newbie who annoyed several established employees because of slacking off. So another coworker and I partnered up to show the newbie how to pick up her pace. It worked, she became one of the more popular employees because she pulled her weight and then some. We never told her about the gossip chain. And that gossip went away. I think if this person was actually trying to help you they would have been more specific about how to get out of the spot you are supposedly in.

        1. London Calling*

          *Yeah, watch out for the statements “Well, EVERYONE THINKS THAT…..” Most likely it is NOT true.*

          Along with YOU ALWAYS and YOU NEVER. Statements like that are manipulative and designed to have you doubting yourself and thinking that what you have been accused of is true.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Adding, I ALWAYS or I NEVER. Watch out for those phrases also.

            I was in my thirties before I learned this one. And it’s been such a valuable thing to learn. Each time, every time I have heard those phrases. there were inaccuracies in the statement that followed.

            Such a little thing, but so valuable to know.

            1. London Calling*

              OP, it’s called gaslighting. That’s interesting to read up on in the context of your colleague’s remarks.

    2. JobinPolitics*

      Intern, you are exhibiting great maturity with receiving such negative and unsolicited feedback from a colleague.

      Please give yourself some time to process what was said and consider the validity of the claims. Do you notice people declining to work with you? Could you have made comments, intentional or otherwise, that could cause you to come across as entitled or not a team player?

      It’s perfectly OK to take some time and reflect on this before speaking with either your co-workers or your boss.

      Again, I commend you on being so mature and open to criticism. It’s not easy to hear and absorb.

      Take care of yourself and have a good weekend!

    3. Jennifer Thneed*

      Go back to that guy and ask for specifics. When was a time you didn’t go “above and beyond”? If he can’t come up with specifics, there’s something else up.

      And is there any obvious social difference between you and most co-workers, or even just this co-worker (meaning: sex, skin color, dress preference, you read books and they don’t)? Stuff like that can contribute to people being critical of you when you’re not actually doing anything “wrong”.

      AND: is the person who told you this unpopular at work and likely to stir up crap?

      (And keep in mind that people tend to dislike most in others the traits they dislike in themselves.)

    4. Marthooh*

      The guy should not be giving you this kind of feedback (talk about entitled!) so don’t take him seriously. Talk to your manager about what he said, and follow your manager’s advice.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      Do you have a good relationship with your manager? Is there a mentor at work you trust? Is there a coworker at work you trust? Find someone you trust, really trust, and ask for their honest feedback on your work. Do you trust this coworker? Do you think they have a good read on the office and on people? Assess all of those things before making any decisions.

  97. tj bag dog*

    Hey all, I did submit this question to Allison but haven’t seen it published, so I’m posting it here!

    My department does not use its time off–we’ve been told to just take the time we need without using what’s in our bank. I want to be clear, we are accruing sick time, personal time, and vacation. We have a bank, and are able to submit requests to “spend” our time. But apparently, since before I started, it has been standard in this leg of the company to just put the time you want off in your calendar. You don’t even have to ask your boss first–I’ve been under two bosses in this role and each time I ask if I can take certain days off, they say go for it, no need to ask. Like, a weeks worth of time!

    IS THIS NORMAL? My first job out of college was with this company in a call center job that was VERY hours-oriented (logged in at 6, tracking even bathroom break time away from your desk). I applied and transferred to a program manager role in under a year, am now salaried, and have no idea what’s normal in a “real” office.

    It is giving me (unwarranted, I’m sure) anxiety, since I don’t know if I’m using too much time off compared to others, or if I’ll send an out of office notice and then be told I can’t go. Does anyone else’s office operate like this?

    1. Eric*

      It sounds suspect to me, honestly. But I once worked for a boss who ran the “I’m so casual and informal” act so he could turn it around when you fell out of favor with him (“Eric worked remotely when I didn’t say he could!”), so I may be colored by that experience.

      1. Windchime*

        Oh, I worked for this guy too. He’d give me an assignment, I’d ask for a due date and he’d say, “Oh, whenever.” Then later it was “Windchime feels that she is exempt from deadlines and never meets them.” Say, what?

    2. Starryemma*

      With my office, I also put the leave I want on my calendar, and also don’t need to ask for approval. If it’s a long time (like a week), I try to make sure I’m not leaving during one of our busy periods, and try to make sure they’re aren’t too many others gone at the same time, by checking their calendars (in that case I’d check with my boss).

      But I basically manage my own time, which I love.

      If you’re worried that you’re overshooting the amount of time off, why not just take the days that are allotted to you yearly (even if you’re not reporting them on the official reporting system)? That seems like a way to stay within the bounds. Or, at the end of the year or something you could check with your boss to see if they have any feedback on the amount of time you’ve been taking off.

      1. Thlayli*

        What starryemma said – take the time you are entitled to, and then idea you get the rest paid out to you at some point, great. If not, you haven’t lost anything.

  98. Eric*

    I’m thinking of going back to an old job. I left a little less than a year ago, and I regretted leaving almost immediately.

    However, I’m still friendly with a lot of people at the old job. I hang out with old co-workers and my old manager once in a while, and my new job’s office is right next to the old job, so I run into them fairly frequently.

    A couple of weeks ago, I was hanging out with an ex-coworker and he said that the door’s open for me to return with a raise and promotion. He’s not management and I know that nothing is certain, but I’m seriously thinking about it. It’s pretty common for people to leave and come back at this company.

    This isn’t a question, just sorting out my own thoughts. But if any of y’all have experiences returning to an old company, let me know.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I think one of the main questions to ask yourself is, why did you leave in the first place? If it was due to an amazing (at the time) offer you couldn’t refuse or something external luring you away when you were otherwise content, that’s one thing. But if the answer has anything to do with that office’s culture or lack of opportunities or bad working environment, you’d really have to know that things have changed enough that you feel you could be happy going back. Otherwise it’s like the counter-offer situation – short term good but (usually) long term bad.

      For me, after I was laid off people asked if I’d be willing to come back if it were an option. I like the work and almost all of my coworkers but I don’t like how the current management operates, so until management changes over I wouldn’t want to go back to that specific job. I would definitely work elsewhere in the company and have been looking into those options though.

      1. Eric*

        That’s legit. The job wasn’t perfect, but my biggest problem with it was that I was underpaid. If they matched my current salary, I would seriously consider returning.

  99. Grace*

    What kind of scheduling software does your company use? Before, we used Excel, but have now switched to a free web-based scheduling software. I can tell that the team leaders don’t really like the new software, but all the (mostly tech-savvy) employees love it. What do you guys use?

    1. Eric*

      For meetings, most places I’ve worked for use Outlook. My first job used Lotus Notes, which is not very good.

      For vacation time, that’s usually gone through a company HR or timekeeping portal. And of course, you announce it to your team and mark yourself as being out those days in your email client and the calendar.

      One thing I liked about my first job is that there were a bunch of calendars in the department head’s office where everyone marked their vacation days.

    2. Jennifer Thneed*

      How did you use Excel for scheduling? Oh, I guess I should ask what is being scheduled? I’m assuming it’s meetings, but maybe it’s client deliveries?

      Anyway, all my experience is in Outlook and Google Calendar.

      1. Grace*

        It was for employee shift scheduling. I used a spreadsheet, with formulas, data validation, and conditional formatting to make it work. I often wondered how other organizations scheduled their employees, as it was difficult to keep track of (and collect) employees’ availabilities, time off requests, etc. on a single Excel sheet.

        1. Stop trying to make fetch happen*

          I think you’re better off with a calendar programme like outlook that has people’s availability anyway. Why not just make it in whatever calendar you all use?

    3. Short & Dumpy*

      We use whatever email program we use soooo

      We used to use Outlook and it worked GREAT. Everyone from the most IT challenged to the most advanced could do what they needed easily. We also had it set up so resources like meeting rooms had their own calendars so you could see what was available when, who had it, etc.

      We now have gmail (thanks DOI) and it is AWFUL. There isn’t a person in my last several offices who doesn’t despise it. People have actually started to go back to paper calendars on the walls it’s so bad!

  100. Drew*

    Working from home today and the kid across the street is practicing his basketball dribbling and he is SO BAD at it.

    bounce bounce…bouncebouncebounce bouncebounce…bounce…bounce bounce…

    Going to have to put on some music just to drown that out. But not dubstep, because that’s just trading one bad beat for another.

  101. Ellie*

    Any advice on working at large consulting companies? I work on the federal side for one and just feel like I keep getting the short stick. I came in with many years of experience but they slotted me in an entry-level role, and then I had a horrible boss, and my current project is now wrapping up sooner than expected. I’m finding it hard to navigate the bureaucracy and highlight my non-technical skills and experience (managing teams, handling client relationships, coordinating projects local and overseas). Ugh – any tips? Thanks!

  102. Almost Violet Miller*

    Any experience in/suggestions for getting a job in China (1st choice would be Shanghai)? I don’t speak Chinese (yet?) and am not a native English-speaker.
    (I’m aware this is a very broad question but would love to hear stories.)

    1. Effie, who is wondering*

      Do you look like a native English speaker, AKA Caucasian? If yes you could get a job teaching English pretty easily as long as you have a university degree/college degree, wherever you’re from. They’d rather have students learning strongly Russian-accented English from a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Russian instructor than have students learning standard English from an American-born Asian person who’s first language is English (spoken from personal experience). Basically as long as you look the part and have graduated from college, someone will be willing to hire you.

    2. AcademiaNut*

      It can depend wildly on what you want to do.

      Do you have a passport from an English speaking country (particularly the US or Canada) and a bachelor’s degree (in anything)? If so, you could likely get a basic English teaching job with that. My experience is they hire ‘native’ speakers based on passport, not accent (could you tell the difference between a Beijing and Shanghai accent when someone is speaking Chinese?). The better teaching jobs go to people with teaching degrees, ESL training and experience – you’ll be limited mostly to cram schools. Some places may require TEFL certification to get the visa, so I’d check on that specifically.

      For non-teaching jobs, getting a job with a Chinese company will depend a lot on whether you have a job skill that is in demand. I know people who have worked there in academic positions and software with no Chinese languages skills.

      Are you specifically looking at China, or at a Chinese speaking country? Taiwan has scholarships available for people to come and study Chinese full time for a year, which can expand your job prospects significantly.

  103. SF chic*

    I have similar issues. I am pear shaped. I fluctuate 5-10 pounds regularly because all of my weight/water goes to my butt/upper thighs. You have two solutions.

    You have a few pairs of modestly priced pants in two sizes. And you go back and forth between them. I recommend the curvy fit ankle pants at Loft. Some people like the curvy sizes at Banana Republic. They are often on sale, and are quite affordable and are thick/substantial and have a bit of stretch as well. And you wear a belt as needed, and if your figure is too extreme for these pants, you pay for them to be tailored at the waist. That is what you have to do.

    Leggings and ultra baggy pants so big you can fluctuate a size or two are not work appropriate. Don’t go this route. Your instincts are good.

    And then yes – you have a few dresses or simple skirts. A line or shift. These can easily accommodate your weight changes. If you are self conscious about your legs, then you wear them with tights as your fall/winter wardrobe, and move back to pants when tights are no longer weather appropriate. Also, in summer you can use self-tanner on your legs or wear hose, if they make you feel more comfortable. Or wear shorts (skimmies) under your skirt to make it more comfortable.

    You can’t have everything. As you know, clothing doesn’t fit most of us straight off the rack, and manufacturers change their sizing and cuts all the time. Pants are incredibly difficult to size well, so you are asking for the impossible. You have to compromise, pay for things that must be done (tailoring/belts) and buy skirts/dresses to side step this issue and work on your comfort factor.

  104. anon for anon's sake*

    I need some insight on whether this is a normal thing in the corporate world and I need to let it go, or if this is a battle I should fight:
    Background – I was hired by a company that categorized my position as salaried/exempt. We merged with a different company and took on their policies, which because of the then-impending change to FLSA updated our roles to hourly/non-exempt. Even though the changes to FLSA were halted, we have remained as hourly workers, with our hourly rate being calculated by dividing our salary by 40 hr/52 wk.
    Here’s my question – we were told that we would now be required to work 42.5 hours a week, and when we received our yearly pay increase (which I understand that not everyone gets), our hourly rate DECREASED because our time worked went up, and therefore we are being paid more. Our HR dept says that we did get a raise, because our salary went up, but because we are hourly, it’s actually a pay decrease. So, is this something other people have had happen to them, is it normal and I should just let it go? Is it something even worth fighting for?

    1. Ethel*

      I would check, check, and triple check your work to ensure your calculations are correct, and then absolutely run it up. The whole reason we work is for the pay, right?! Fight for what you’re worth, even if it’s the same as the pay was before. They also could be trying to “pull one over” on the team thinking no one would check their work.

    2. Troutwaxer*

      I wonder if this is like the guy a couple weeks ago whose manager calculated his rate of pay with 48 weeks/year (4 weeks/month x 12) instead of 52 weeks.

    3. Actuarial Octagon*

      Are you getting paid time and a half for those extra 2.5 hours per week? That might be part of your “raise” but definitely bring it up!

    4. valentine*

      If you’re still non-exempt and not making more without the 2.5/wk, you’re not making more, as that’s overtime/not guaranteed or unpaid lunches. It’s worth checking if that affects the break time law, fighting for (back) overtime pay, checking whether they’re treating you as salaried and exempt while listing your pay as hourly, and researching whether your job duties currently fit the government’s classification of non-/exempt.

  105. Not So Super-visor*

    Interesting scenario: a customer (female) just flipped out and asked to be transferred to a manager. The customer been calling the rep here (also female) “Hun,” (like Honey) and the rep, who is known for her attitude issues, finally replied “Actually, it’s Jane not Hun.”
    While I’m all for asserting this type of correction if you’re speaking with a coworker (even if it’s a manager), what are the group’s thoughts about making that type of correction to a customer.
    Obviously, it didn’t go well with this customer…

    1. Eric*

      I think the rep was in the right there, though I don’t know what the “attitude issues” are or how they manifested elsewhere in her interaction with the customer. Do you want to keep the business of someone who’s gonna treat people like dirt?

    2. NaoNao*

      Mmmm tough one.

      I’ve worked in call centers and as customer service and I don’t think the customer is always right. But I think that the rep has to make the calculation “is this going to improve the overall experience for me or the customer?” Corrections like that aren’t inherently wrong, and I can see getting to the point where one more sugar coated turd of a “hon” would make me snap, but the problem isn’t the ‘tude, it’s the lack of moving the call forward to a resolution.

      The rep should be focused on being as polite as they can *while moving the call to a resolution*. All their decisions, including when to warn customers or correct them, should be based on that metric, IMHO. Because attitude is subjective, and AHT is not. :)

    3. Book Lover*

      Ugh. I’ve had patients call me sweetie, etc. I usually just let it go because it just isn’t worth the hassle. If it were a coworker I’d tell them to cut it out. Though actually one of the operators calls me honey or something like that and I keep meaning to tell her to quit and haven’t. I’d probably cheer Jane on, though it sounds like perhaps she has other issues.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think it would be appropriate if the customer was using “Hun” in a rude, condescending way. But if it was just one of those people who calls everyone “Hun” or “Sweetie,” it was a bad call.

      1. Not So Super-visor*

        I don’t know yet… our call recording system takes FOREVER to process a call. The woman was very nice to me, and I got a “You’re a doll, hun” at the end, BUT she also knew that she’d been transferred to a manager.

    5. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      As a former CSR, I have fantasized about doing this, but I also understand that it’s not a good way to de-escalate the situation with a hostile customer. It might feel good in the moment, but it isn’t helpful to anyone in that scenario. If I felt myself getting to the point of snarkiness at that level, I just said, “I am no longer able to help you. Please hold for a supervisor.” and transferred the call. Can you tell your rep to transfer the call to a manager BEFORE it gets to the point that she’s snapping at customers?

    6. Pollygrammer*

      Unless a caller is addressing you with an actual insult, I think you need to let things like that go.

      “Sugar” = deal with it
      “Sugar Tits” = okay, we have a problem

    7. valentine*

      Support Jane in not submitting to anyone’s pet names or alleged terms of endearment. It’s sexist, regardless of perpetrator/target, and especially gross if this was the customer’s entire complaint.

  106. My Cat Posted This For Me*

    So I’m a communications director at a large public university and I’ve spent the last two weeks looking at applications for our new marketing/communications writer position. We had 92 applicants. I can interview a max of five, maybe six, and it’s been tough narrowing it down. I am REALLY trying to be fair to everyone and feel the weight of this responsibility, and the fact that all the documentation permanently goes on file here in case there are cases about whether someone was unfairly treated. I’ve got a lot of advice for my applicants that I can’t share for them so I’ve been saving it for today! This is writer-job specific but some of it may be useful for others.

    • Don’t make me work too hard to tell if you’re qualified! The applicants who make it clear are moving to the top of the list. The ones who don’t are making it easy for me to disqualify them.

    • If you’re overqualified, be sure you show me that you can actually do the job as described. I’ve had some big-time PR execs apply for this job who only talk about running teams. The word “writing” barely even shows up. There’s no indication that they know how to make edits to a website or have used design software, etc. I’m having to mark them as not meeting our five minimum qualifications. I have no interest in hiring them. Plus their cover letters tend to end with statements along the lines of, “Please give me a call so we can talk about what I can do for you.” Uh, no, your highness.

    • In that same vein: Goodness knows why, if you’ve been director of worldwide marketing for multiple household-name megacompanies, you would want this job. We’re very clear about the salary and it’s not high. So in addition to showing you can do the job, indicate in your cover letter why you want it. I could totally understand someone who has particular circumstances, wants to live in our town, needs some salary but not much, etc., wanting an end-of-career straightforward job. None of these hugely overqualified people have made any case like that. So they seem strange and out of touch, or like they didn’t know what they were applying for.

    • Journalists: I respect journalism so much. But I’m not hiring a journalist, I’m hiring a mar/com writer, so if you, like many of your colleagues, need to make a career change, you need to convince me that you can do this style of writing. It’s not going to be journalism. I had a difficult experience with a writer who had only been a journalist who really didn’t get that the voice needed to be quite different. That was an eye-opener. So look at the qualifications and show me that you can indeed meet them, don’t just tell me you’re a journalist and think that means you’re covered. Also, I’m hiring a writer and getting journalists who only talk about editing. I can’t assume you can write unless you actually talk about it specifically. Literally, I have to be able to check the boxes to make it fair to everyone and I can’t assume you have skill A if you don’t spell it out. Plus, see first bullet point, you’re making it easy for me to mark you as unqualified so I can move on. But I feel bad because I’m so sorry about the state of journalism in this country so please stop making me have conflicted feelings and do a better job applying.

    • It makes me nervous when your resume/application/cover letter doesn’t match. You don’t mention any experience related to, say, WordPress or MailChimp in your cover letter/application, but then in your resume you list them in your skills (along with all the other programs/platforms in our job posting). Or your application/resume say almost nothing about writing and your job title is account manager but then you tell me in your letter that you’ve been writing professionally for five years. Really?

    • Similarly, if you wrote at a job and you’re applying for a writing position, say you wrote something, not only that you produced it. I am suspicious of “produced.” I can’t tell if you managed others or did it yourself. If you wrote a lot of newsletters, tell me you wrote them. (Also, I am searching your application package PDF for key words and produced isn’t one of them.)

    • Everyone’s different, but I didn’t really like it when people looked up my name so they could address me directly in the cover letter, and I really didn’t like it when they guessed wrong and used my boss’s name. Just leave it at hiring committee or some such to be safe, IMHO.

    • Don’t try to connect with me on LinkedIn or send me direct emails trying to have a conversation outside of the hiring process. I won’t do that and I have enough to do without politely swatting you away too.

    • FWIW, personal recommendations have made a difference but won’t guarantee you anything. Someone who was only a year into their career was able to advance to the “maybe” category only because of a personal recommendation. An overqualified-underqualified douchecanoe also got a second look for that reason. But it’s not enough to get you the job or even an interview if you just don’t make the cut.

    • I shouldn’t have to say this, but if you’re applying to be a writer, please proofread. I’m actually not allowed to disqualify someone for lots of typos (I wouldn’t do that if it was just one or two, we’re all human, but this is ridiculously sloppy) but believe me I’m very carefully documenting those people as not meeting minimums because no way am I hiring them. Same goes with terrible grammar/bizarre sentence constructions, but frankly I’m relieved that you revealed your true ability level so maybe keep on being your bad self in that case.

    • There’s a difference between confidently stating your qualifications/why you’d be a match for the job and just plain boasting. Calling yourself clever is boasting. Wish I’d written down the other irritating self-descriptors I read in these applications. There were a bunch.

    • One person opened their cover letter with a ridiculous, overwrought paragraph about our institution. I immediately thought, “Hell no, you’re not writing for me if you think that’s what good comms writing sounds like. Sheesh!” My opinion was seconded by a colleague. Oof, it was bad. Stick to the facts. Another person’s cover letter was set up as a press release. I was put off at first, then decided it was acceptable for my industry, but ultimately that format didn’t give me the information I needed to determine if the person was qualified. Quotes from yourself about being ready for the new challenge, etc. don’t actually say that you’ve used WordPress. So if you can’t stop yourself from using a gimmick be damn sure you still cover the basics.

    • If you’re a writer (probably applies to anyone but definitely writers) applying to a bureaucratic workplace with an online application process, be sure to maximize your application. Fill in all the fields, especially where there’s questions about your qualifications. Just saying “Yes, I’ve written professionally for 10 years” is a wasted opportunity. And to the handful of people who failed to upload a cover letter and/or resume, or whose cover letter just said that you were applying and attached was your resume: also a wasted opportunity. Are you a writer or not?

    End of rant.

    1. ToodieCat*

      LOL. I had to hire a tech writer not long ago and the results were … not good. I am going to save this advice for next time!

  107. Alice*

    My coworker applied for an internal job posting for the HR department, and he has an in-person interview next week. However, he told me that there was a phone interview, a first interview (the in-person interview next week), a career planning assessment, a take home written assignment, a presentation, and then a second interview. I was shocked, and thought this was extremely excessive for a position that only pays $35k. Is this normal for jobs in HR?

    1. periwinkle*

      No! Not normal! Or at least it’s not standard or typical.

      At my org, for individual contributor positions there’s one main interview and maybe a second interview. I came in at mid-level into an HR division and had two panel interviews plus a short phone interview with an executive (who did this for all finalists regardless of position). No presentation, no career planning, no homework.

  108. Poop?*

    Can I use this in a cover letter? I am talking about volunteering in a job to set up a new department. This department analyzes fecal material. I describe the work involved in starting this new department and then write, “It was truly all poop and no pony.” Too casual? It’s for a job in the agricultural field, so it’s not like poop never comes up, but it’s also a primarily office job. (Also, I am trying to transition to this particular part of the industry, so I am not really conversant with the norms.)

    1. Teapot librarian*

      I like seeing personality in cover letters, but that’s an expression I don’t know so it would take me aback.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, I didn’t think of that possibility; good point. (I assumed it was based on the expression about an optimistic person, who sees a pile of crap and immediately starts looking for a pony.)

    2. fposte*

      Calculated risk; I’d say if you don’t know the part of the industry you don’t have enough information to calculate. I think it has high enough hilarity potential that I’d take some time to investigate, but I wouldn’t use it without more knowledge.

    3. CheeryO*

      I don’t know the agricultural field, but as someone who works in the wastewater field, I probably wouldn’t. We love the occasional poop joke (my coworker has his cube walls covered in what must be every poop-related comic strip that has ever run), but I think it would be out of place in a cover letter. I wonder if there’s a way to bring a little cheeky humor to it without using the word “poop.”

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t know the expression and without knowing it, it sounds very negative and a lot like you are criticizing your previous employer which is always a bad idea in cover letters. Also, I think the word “poop” would take me aback if I read it.

      1. Poop?*

        Good point. I’m trying to make the point that I take on tasks that others won’t (my coworkers were very resistant go the whole project. We worked in the veterinary field! Shit happens!) but I don’t want to sound like a jerk about it. Like CG said, probably best for an interview, if at all.

  109. Sung K.*

    I just overheard my coworker say to another coworker that the Korean model App Hop Park was nothing special and that she hoped that dying her hair platnum blonde in attempt to be pretty like real supermodels was worth destroying the one thing she kind of had going for her in terms of looks. I’m Korean and Soo Joo Park is one of my idols. I’m majority giving her side eye now as well as my other coworker for agreeing. I don’t know if I’m going to say anything but I’m definitely looking at her differently now.

    1. fposte*

      Urgh. I know nothing from models but that sounds pretty damn racist, and I join you in the side-eye.

      1. Sung K.*

        Sorry I should have clarified. She has Korean ancestry also and no one in the situation has any white ancestry. I am looking at her differently but there is no racism here. I should have been more clear. Thanks for the support fposte.

        1. fposte*

          Ah, okay; my apology for misunderstanding. Then if that’s not a component I think this is just a different tastes thing that you’ll probably benefit from letting go. We probably all have idols that other people dislike, and they get to do that.

    2. nope nope nope*

      I’m Korean and I agree with the co-worker. Saying someone isn’t pretty is not automatically racist.

    3. Blue Cupcake*

      Why would you look at her differently just because she has different taste than you? Everybody has different tastes when it comes to looks. For example, I like George Clooney but his looks does nothing for me. I’m aware many people find him attractive, but that doesn’t make me a bad person for having the opposite opinion of many others. Nothing to side-eye about.

    4. Yolo*

      At first I thought App Hop Park and Soo Joo Park were different people. Autocorrect needs to get it together :)

  110. Elizabeth West*

    I tweeted this the other day and it got 32 likes and 7 retweets (that’s a lot for me):

    Dear companies,

    You are never going to find an employee with every single thing on your wishlist. But you can often train someone who has the basics to do the job really well.

    Stop looking for a unicorn and MAKE ONE.

    I should start making t-shirts. :) LOL j/k

    In other news, I queried an agent whose first name is the same as one of my characters. And another character has a variation of her last name. Ha! Completely unintentional. And then I had a little fantasy where a screener said, “Hey, Jane, here’s a query with your name in it!” “Let’s see. OMG this is awesome; I must have pages immediately!” *hahahahahahaha*

    Nothing on the job front. *sigh*

  111. Teapot librarian*

    I have a draft email to one of my employees open on my computer. It says “Your constant implications that I do not have the knowledge, experience, or dedication appropriate to preserving the history [of the jurisdiction whose teapots we keep] is insulting and unprofessional.” I deleted the email address from the “to:” line so I can’t send it by accident.
    I’ve been working on writing a PIP for him for the last three weeks and keep getting pulled into other important things. (And reading AAM.)

      1. Teapot librarian*

        I do know it’s a face to face conversation, not email. This is a “write the email, don’t send it” thing. I appreciate the reminder though :-)

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Oh, sorry! I’m so used to people putting things in emails that should be conversations that I thought you just meant “so I can’t send it until it’s done and ready to be sent.”

          1. Teapot librarian*

            Well I definitely WISH I could send it in email! And I wasn’t clear in my comment.

        2. fposte*

          And I got that it was for personal reasons; I just think all of your Hoarder Employee energy should be channeled into getting the PIP done.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’m so sorry! Get that PIP done! You can do this. I know this person has been a problem for a while.

  112. Buffy Summers*

    My company has a policy of not giving out references for employees. My direct report is at the reference stage with a job she applied for and I agreed (against company policy) to be a reference for her. I’m a little nervous about it, but I really think we’re doing our employees a disservice by not giving out references.
    So how badly do you think this is going to turn out for me?

    1. Colette*

      I think that’s really, really common. I’ve had multiple managers offer to be a reference for me even though the company policy was no references.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        It probably can get you in trouble, but yeah, in my experience managers just tell you to use their personal email/cell number and call it square.

    1. CatCat*

      Did they wait until the very end to quickly rattle off their call back number a single time before hanging up and you couldn’t quite get the whole number down so now you have to listen to the whole message again?

    2. k.k*

      I didn’t even think you could leave a voicemail that long. I think my phone cuts it off at like 3 minutes? Basing that on the length of butt-dial messages I’ve gotten.

    3. Horizon*

      Back in the day, our voicemail would cut off after 3 minutes. I had a colleague who would ramble along , get cut off, then call back and spend OVER A MINUTE recapping what she’d just said, get cut off, call back..

  114. Mediamaven*

    What do you feel about showering in the morning or at night? I shower in the morning (and sometimes at night too) and couldn’t imagine starting my day any other way. One of my coworkers showers at night and is very hoity toity about it – like anyone who showers in the morning is dirty in their beds. She doesn’t realize that she has a musty smell about her when I’m meeting close, or her office gets a bit thick when she has the door shut. She also tends to spray on a lot of perfume that creates a combo smell of musty covered up with perfume. Anyway, is there anyway to tell someone they don’t smell great because they haven’t showered? Or do you deal with it since it’s not so strong that it’s disruptive?

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      You really can’t say that to anyone except a very close friend, or a spouse, or your child, or maybe your parent. But you *can* say something about the keeping the office door open for the air circulation. Or because you’re feeling too warm.

      (Fwiw, I don’t shower every day at all. My skin is too dry for that. I also don’t tend to BO, and I use a deoderant.)

    2. Temperance*

      I shower at night because my hair is too much of a PITA to deal with in the morning, and I don’t have a weird, musty smell. Her night showering isn’t why she smells. She just smells. Stink and perfume often combine into an even worse smell, so you have my sympathy.

      My mom used to be similarly judgmental about going to bed with a “dirty body”. Unless you’re running a marathon or something, you aren’t going to be that dirty.

      1. Jennifer Thneed*

        Oh! I just realized that she might think, if she always showers before bed, that she doesn’t need to change her sheets very often. Which is wrong, of course, but could be contributing to that musty smell.

    3. fposte*

      I don’t think it matters when you shower (you’re dirty in your bed no matter when you wash, so she’s got a weird fixation), and unless her odor is disruptive there’s no reason to bring it up. Sounds like it just bugs you because she’s a snob about an area she’s actually not doing so great on; understandable, but let it go.

      1. Mediamaven*

        Yes, I believe that might be true. But occasionally we’ll have to travel a distance via car and it’s close quarters and it knocks me over for a few minutes until my nose gets acclimated.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I don’t think that’s enough to bring up. You can ask her not to put on any more perfume in the car if she tends to reapply, but that’s about it.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      Whoa there. You’re saying she’s hoity toity about her evening shower habits, but you’re saying she has a musty smell because she showers at night.

      You might want to rethink your position on this being a shower issue. Do other people around you have a musty smell? Do you know their shower habits? You’re sitting in a glass house trying to throw stones here.

      1. Mediamaven*

        I say that because we’ve spoken about it. She knows I shower in the morning and she’s made a point of saying she could never imagine climbing into her bed dirty. We’re pretty close so we discuss things like that and have debated it. She does have a smell – it’s not BO but it doesn’t necessarily smell clean to me. That’s not my imagination.

        1. Natalie*

          Regardless, you’re each showering once in a 24 hour period so there’s not really any reason to think that’s the issue. Maybe you are in BEC mode with her?

            1. Blue Anne*

              Bitch eating crackers. It’s when you get to the point where you’re so irritated by someone that ANYTHING they do is annoying. “Look at that bitch, eating crackers!”

        2. MechanicalPencil*

          Maybe it’s the smell of the products she uses. Who knows. But the way it read above to me sounded as if you were implying that you were the superiorly clean one because you showered either in the morning or more than once a day. I agree with Natalie that you do sound like you’re at a BEC stage with her.

          1. Mediamaven*

            I think we both think we are superiorly clean to be honest! She the only one who’s said as much though!

    5. Blue Anne*

      I mean, I’m really happy when I get to work having showered at any time in the last 48 hours. It’s usually at night because that’s when I have the spoons. Dragging myself out of bed in the morning is tough, much less doing it early enough to shower beforehand. Sometimes I do hit myself with febreze or body spray to try to cover it up.

      I think if I colleague told me I had BO I would start just calling in sick sometimes when I can’t lever myself out of bed to shower immediately before coming in.

    6. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      For me it depends on the time of year. Most of the time I prefer the morning just because it helps me wake up and clear the sinuses. However, I’ll soon be switching to night because the pollen is about to get bad where I live and I HAVE to wash that all off and out of my hair before I go to bed or I’ll wake up a stuffy, puffy mess.

    8. Windchime*

      I’m on team Night Shower. It’s mostly because I have thick hair that takes forever to dry and fix, so I prefer to do that at night. I also have to leave the house at 5 AM and I like to minimize my morning routine.

      There is someone in my workplace who has that musty smell you’re talking about. In my co-worker’s case, I believe it is unwashed laundry that I’m smelling. I noticed one day last week that the collar of her jacket was very grubby, so it seems like a reasonable theory to me.

  115. Ethel*

    My coworker keeps trying to convert me to Christianity. He’s much older than I am (15 year difference) and constantly tries to invite me to church, religious family gatherings he has, asks to “pray over” projects with me, and makes passes at me about how things aren’t on track because I’m not right with the lord. So far, I’ve told him to cut it out, I’ve told him it’s not his business, and that it makes me uncomfortable. But now I think he believes that’s our rapport. *insert eye roll emoji*

    1. fposte*

      Uh–that’s moving beyond uncool to possibly illegal. Do you have an HR, and do you want to report this?

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If he’s continuing after you’ve clearly told him to stop, that’s religious harassment and you’d be on solid ground in reporting it. Your company does not want him doing this; he’s creating a legal liability for them.

    3. Temperance*

      I would report him to HR, because that’s unacceptable. I would feel frankly harassed by treatment like that … and would start doing petty things like wearing a pentagram necklace whenever I had to interface with him.*

      *Yes, I know that they aren’t “Satanic”, but someone who is this much of a tool doesn’t know the difference.

    4. Totally Minnie*

      You need to talk to your boss about this YESTERDAY.

      Unless you work for a religious organization, proselytizing on the clock is absolutely not okay. Your boss (and your coworker’s boss, if they’re not the same person) needs to know what’s happening. Unless your boss is a complete train wreck, I can’t see them brushing off the claim that “Bill keeps trying to convert me to his religion while we’re supposed to be working, even after I’ve asked him to stop.”

    5. Faintlymacabre*

      My high school geometry teacher once told me I was doing badly in her class because I hadn’t “accepted Jesus Christ into my heart.” I was pretty much like “uh okay, buhbye” and reported her to my advisor. She was fired.

  116. Michelle*

    I would like to find the person who invented cubicles and beat them with my stapler. I can’t stand having people walk up behind me and even with a mirror it’s jarring. Then there are all the types of coworkers: the heavy walker, the foot dragger, the silent one who walks up and waits for you to realize they are there, the one who wants to sit on your desk while they talk to you, etc. I’ve been working in a cube for 10 years and been fine, but lately it is really affecting me.

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      Can you change where in the cube your computer is? I’ve done that several times. It’s worth it to me to be on the narrower part of the work surface if it means I don’t have my back to the cube opening.

      1. Michelle*

        Unfortunately, no. I did ask if I could change the layout and was denied. They used the “if we do it for you we’ll have to do it for everyone” excuse.

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          What would happen if you just moved things around a little? Are the cords long enough for that? It wouldn’t require effort on anyone else’s part. (I freely admit to being a “beg forgiveness rather than ask permission” sort of a person.)

      2. Mickey Q*

        At the last cube farm I positioned my computer so that I was partially facing the opening. A very tall coworker would walk by and stick his head over the top of the wall behind me. You can’t win.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Well, better a cube than open office or hot desk! At least you have 3 sides of privacy.

    4. Sparkly Librarian*

      I have a volunteer who is the silent-waiting type. She turns up when she is done with a task and doesn’t say, “I finished that and put it on the shelf. What did you want me to do next?” or “I have to leave in ten minutes — is there anything left on your list?” or ANYTHING. It’s aggravating! I don’t want her to think I’m ignoring her because my email is Just. That. Fascinating. It’s not that –I just haven’t noticed she’s there yet.

  117. FutureMatLeave*

    Negotiating extra maternity leave at your current job – who’s done it, and what did you ask for? Did you get what you asked for?

    We are planning to expand our family in the near future, and when that happens I would really like to take longer than the three months that FMLA requires employers to provide. I would of course expect to take that extra time unpaid. My state law does not offer any leave above and beyond FMLA. I work at a large (fortune 500) company but on a very small team. Ideally I would like to take 6 months off after the child is born for the benefits of bonding, breastfeeding, saving on daycare, etc — but I would also be open to taking 4 or 5 months off, or returning to work part-time for a few months after my FMLA was up.

    I’m trying to get a sense for whether six months is waaay to much to ask for* or if it’s a terrible idea to ask for due to other reasons, or if it’s a reasonable starting point for a negotiation. Everything I have read online about asking for more leave is framing it as asking for more pay during leave to supplement the short-term disability income, or else asking for leave when your company is not covered by FMLA. I couldn’t find anything about asking for more unpaid leave after FMLA runs out.

    I know of one coworker in another department who works 4 days a week due to childcare, and I’m going to look for an opportunity to ask her how she negotiated that setup. Everyone else seems to take the full 3-month FMLA leave but I don’t know of anyone who’s taken more leave (not that I really counted how long they were off).

    *Please let’s skip the discussion about how the US is backwards on their maternity leave policies, we all know that it is but I can’t change that or move to another country.

    1. Double A*

      I am just at the beginning of exploring my maternity leave options, but I have a short-term disability plan. I was originally thinking that short-term disability would be one chunk of my leave, FMLA would be another, and California maternity leave would be another. But now I’m realizing that may have to use FMLA and short term disability concurrently? I will have to look into it.

      I mean, there’s always using any vacation or sick-time tacked onto your leave, but that would probably only buy you another month.

      1. FutureMatLeave*

        I know that some companies, including mine, require you to take your paid time off concurrently with FMLA. So unfortunately that doesn’t buy me extra time! Maybe California is an exception.

    2. Someone else*

      I don’t know if this helps, but every company I’ve worked for had family leave policies outlined in the handbook that only covered how much paid leave employees were entitled to after the birth/adoption of a child. Separately, there was a section about unpaid leave and the rules around taking that. There was also a mandatory meeting with HR when you notify the company that you’ll be taking family leave (which was usually required X months before the leave were expected to happen), and during that meeting they basically go over every single option of leave and where it all comes from, etc.Very detailed, but also fairly complicated and hard to follow. But basically they run down all the various different leaves you can use, in what order. But, basically, my point is if you already get some paid family leave, and have any PTO, then you might already be able to get up to the 4-5ish month threshold once you combine that with the unpaid leave, without having the negotiate anything.

      1. FutureMatLeave*

        I checked it out and our handbook basically says we are entitled to FMLA, period, end of sentence (and PTO runs concurrently with it). Which is disappointing because I’m not super confident that my manager would want to do the work of figuring out if he is allowed to offer me more unpaid leave.

  118. Lumos*

    I had the worst interview ever yesterday. I interviewed for an internship which was advertised with no experience required. The only question they asked me in the hour I was there was “So tell me about yourself.” otherwise they said “You don’t know anything and you have no experience so we can’t ask you anything.” But I now know the life story of both the firm’s partners, the firm’s entire history including how many buildings they’ve rented and from who, and also what happens to the firm when the senior partner dies. I left incredibly confused on why they had called me in the first place.

    1. Garland not Andrews*

      Is the only thing they ever do work? Do they not realize that work skills can be learned in other places? Lots of other places!
      I’m so sorry they wasted your time!

      1. Lumos*

        I only have six classes left in my degree too. I graduate this fall and I’ve worked with most of the programs they use in class…but y’know I apparently know nothing? I’m actually afraid they’re going to call me and make an offer because I don’t think that they have any other candidates.

        1. Boy oh boy*

          Don’t take it! I had a similar interview— They talked endlessly at me, actually said I didn’t seem right, then offered me the job.

          It turned out that my boss was a very clever man but bloviating, waffly and self important. They also did not know what they wanted from the role (hence the “you’re not suitable” stuff), and I struggled for three months before leaving.

          I hope you get another offer.

    2. Nicole*

      Honestly, I think getting interviews like that is relatively common when you are early in your career. I’ve definitely had interviews where I left wondering why they even called me in….and then sometimes they offered me the job anyway! But at least you have a feel for how this company might work if you do get a call back!

  119. Book Badger*

    So, I’m a student, and have consistently been a student (I went to law school directly from undergrad), so I haven’t worked in an office setting consistently yet and I have a question about professional grooming:

    I have decently long hair: it’s between bra-strap length and waist length and pretty thick. It’s not dyed or cut in an unusual style, I take very good care of it (moisturizers and all that) and I tend to style it pretty simply: down and held back with a clip, or in a bun or braid. My parents insist that my hair is too long and that it looks unprofessional and too youthful, and I should cut it to shoulder length. Are people seriously going to judge me for my hair being too long? If it was unkempt or a weird color or something, I’d understand, but just too long in general? (For the record, I am a woman and I’m 24)

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      Someone, somewhere, will judge you for anything.

      Your parents are wrong about this. As long as your hair is well-groomed (which it is) and not in your face (which it isn’t), then you’re fine. Oh, and it might depend slightly on your field and location, and on whether you end up customer-facing.

      Have you asked your mother, specifically, why she thinks this? (And is she working outside the house? If not, she might be influenced by what businesswomen on tv look like.)

      1. Book Badger*

        My mom does work (my dad was the stay-at-home parent until my youngest sibling was in elementary school). I get the sense that it’s something she was also told at one point – she had long hair like mine in college, “but you know, sometimes you have to grow up and look like an adult!” She’s not in an especially conservative workplace, though, so I have no idea who told her that.

        She has the same opinion about my boyfriend’s hair, by the way. He has a small ponytail and his hair is so fine and wispy that it’s actually not grown in something like four years, but she thinks it looks unprofessional and he should cut it. “But what if it turns out that he would have gotten the job but for his hair?!” “But what if they specifically told you, ‘We would have hired you, but your hair looks unprofessional’?”

        2. Jennifer Thneed*

          There was a time when women *were* told to wear short hair to look more professional, and it was about looking less feminine, I’m certain of it. That time is long past. Your mom might personally prefer shorter hair? Or might regret cutting hers and thinks you have to share her regret? Anyway, you’re fine. Tell her that she doesn’t know the professional norms in your field, and her advice doesn’t apply, and that you love her anyway.

    2. k.k*

      I don’t see why long hair can’t be professional. If it was a more conservative office, I’d say stick to buns. But really I’d say that for any length.

    3. Temperance*

      No, your parents are wrong here. I would probably keep it closer to bra length than waist-length for interviewing at law firms, but it’s really not a thing.

    4. NaoNao*

      In all honesty, yes, some people will judge you for having unusually long hair. *However* it’s very unlikely that those judgments will prevent you from getting jobs, internships, promotions, etc.
      Very long hair that’s not dyed or styled does kind of have a “sister wife” connotation in popular culture (ie, a religious sub group that is pretty far from cultural norms) and that can sometimes undermine professionalism, especially in a younger woman (then again, an older woman with super long hair is it’s own thing too, so…).
      The thing is, everything you do will be judged by someone!
      I would respond to the concern rather that the literal content “I appreciate your concern, but until I hear actual direct feedback about my hair, I’m going to keep it as is.” or “I hear ya. Thanks for the input”.

      My mom is so convinced of so many wrong things regarding the work world, I don’t even have time to get into it here. For years she hounded me about growing my hair out (the irony!) because as a *toddler* I had naturally golden brown lovely hair.

      My actual hair now is pencil lead grey with tons of white. It’s very coarse and unruly, and in its natural state, it looks “undone” and unpolished. Growing it out past a “lob” and even that is just too much work for me!

      I color it and have it in a longer pixie and I *love it* and if someone is going to judge me or not hire me because of my hair, eh, I don’t want to work for them anyway!!

      1. Book Badger*

        “Very long hair that’s not dyed or styled does kind of have a “sister wife” connotation in popular culture (ie, a religious sub group that is pretty far from cultural norms) and that can sometimes undermine professionalism, especially in a younger woman (then again, an older woman with super long hair is it’s own thing too, so…).”

        Yeah, I’ve been told that I “look conservative” (I’m a very liberal person) and I know it’s because I have long hair and dress in sweaters and other “modest” clothing a lot. But I’d almost think that looking conservative would be better than looking too hip and trendy, in a conservative profession like law?

        But yeah, I suppose anyone could judge me for anything, I just have a tendency to trust my parents because, well, they’ve worked and I haven’t.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          There’s different types of conservative in clothing, though.

          There’s law-firm conservative – tailored suits, dress shoes, nylons, subtle but polished jewelry, makeup and hair style, avoiding trendy or revealing clothing. Then there’s religious conservative – long skirts, long hair in a simple style, little or no makeup or jewelry, arms, legs and collarbones covered, no form-fitting clothing.

          The first would be an advantage in a legal setting and entirely appropriate. If you’re closer to the second, as NaoNao said, it may result in people making assumptions about you, and might cause problems, particularly in a very law-firm conservative environment. Long hair with a polished-professional wardrobe, makeup and accessories would be a different, particularly with a more elaborate way of putting the hair up.

          The other assumption that you could get with very long, simple hair is a the hippie-granola one which you would get with more casual clothing, like jeans and t-shirts.

    5. Kathleen_A*

      Once it’s much past your shoulders, you probably shouldn’t wear it down, at least not during interviews or other times when you need to look especially polished. But no, it absolutely isn’t too long.

      But you don’t want your hair to become a focus of anybody’s attention, so when it’s long, you should probably wear it in some sort of bun when you’re in full-on business clothing. There are lots of ways to do this that don’t take very long, but you might want to practice it a bit before you really need to wear it that way. I had really long hair (waist-length and longer) for a very long time, and it took me a while to learn to manage it. But once I did, it actually took less time than most shorter hair because there was none of that elaborate hair-dryer styling required.

      1. Kat*

        I’ve never come across this before and honestly had no idea some people didn’t think long hair was professional. I’ll be interviewing some candidates for a job next week and I definitely won’t be caring how long their hair is. I almost never wear mine up and find that actually I look much better with it down!

    6. CTT*

      If you feel comfortable with it, I’d ask someone at your law school career center. Your parents saying it looks youthful is probably their own bias (I think parents generally think their children look youthful + if you’ve always had it long they might associate it with you being younger), but in the off chance that it is unprofessional for the area you want to work in, the career center folks should be able to tell.

    7. princesswings*

      I’m a 37 year old CPA working for local government, and my hair is down past my waist. Mostly I do a Dutch braid or updo, but it’s Friday, so I’m sitting here in Sailor Moon tailed buns and no one bats an eye. My sister has her hair nearly as long, works for an auditing firm in DC, and never puts hers up at all. You should be just fine in a bun or braid.

      My dad used to give us all kinds of crap like “you girls are never going to get jobs with that hair.” They are entitled to have Opinions, but that doesn’t mean they’re right.

    8. Emilitron*

      When I had long hair, I tended to put it up when I was in more formal settings (i.e. interviews) – in a bun or french twist, or braided and then folded/pinned. Once hair is up, there’s no visual indicator to have an obvious difference between waist-length and mid-shoulder-blade. If you’re just asking about interview prep, I’d say to put it up rather than leaving any of it full length, and postpone any haircut decisions until you’re basing it on a specific office/job, not what “professional” looks like in general. If you’ve got an office job already, but maybe it’s recent and you’re still not certain if your hairstyle fits in, then maybe her advice is worth considering, but I’d ask people from your generation and profession, not just your mom. On the other hand, if you feel that you look professional and appropriate and haven’t been getting any side-eye from coworkers, you’re perfectly reasonable to tell your mom you know what your office expects (better than she does).

    9. BlueBloodMoon*

      I have very long hair (past my waist) and I wear it up almost every day to the point where if people from work see me with my hair down they are very surprised. I did work with my hair dresser about some nice and varied ways to put it up, but honestly, once it’s up no one knows how much there is. I don’t wear it down because of the type of job I work at, but also because I don’t particularly like strangers or colleagues to comment on it.

  120. Lurky McLurkerson*

    Long time reader, first time writer! I’ve spent the last 9 yrs of my working life working at public health labs in 3 different states. I have loved the journey and have finnnnally gotten into a position that is essentially my dream job. downside, as I was offered this job that require me to move I met a guy. and when I moved I thought we could try long distance but didn’t have much faith it would work out. well 3 years in and I was wrong, we became very serious and the best choice for us financially and for our life plans would be for me to move back home in the next year.

    this is the first time I’ve made a career choice that involved anyone but myself, but I realized there is more to life than just work and I want to settle down after years of jumping around.

    NOW THE POINT! While there is a public health lab in the city I’ll go back to and I’ve worked there before and could probably reach out to them to see if they have future positions coming up, I have been playing around with the idea of maybe trying to work at a hospital lab or a reference lab.

    This would give me the ability to apply for jobs with more than just one lab system and I realized in my present job that I really do love doing diagnostic testing (there is a research component in my job a few months out of the year and I find it yucky and boring lol). I have the required state technologist license in micro and molecular biology and am certified in both by a national agency.

    the more people I have asked about making the switch from public health lab to hospital lab the more I hear about the triple stress and increased time requirements involved with working in hospitals and it’s really scaring me away from even considering trying to apply for hospital lab jobs. The MLS folks I spoke to who went from hospital lab to public health lab told me that after years of the grind in hospital labs they took a pay cut to have the opportunity to spend more time living their lives and being with their family. Public health labs are great for this, I have always worked 8:00am-4:30pm with all my state and federal holidays and rarely stayed late unless there was an emergency and always of my own accord.

    I thought about maybe trying some PRN or part time work first to see if it would fit my work style and personality, but I don’t want to bother if the culture clash between these types of labs is just too great.

    so, laboratorians out who have worked both public health labs and hospital/reference labs what are your opinions on the differences between them? I just want to throw this question out there to see if the consensus is the same around the country rather than the opinions of a few folks in my current or former labs.

    Sorry about the novel!

  121. Junebug*

    Does equal pay for equal work only apply if a disparity is company-wide? I have two male coworkers on my team who are making 20% more for the same job. They started 2 months before me and have similar backgrounds. I tried to negotiate but the HR rep wouldn’t budge, saying she’d never seen a higher offer. One of the male coworkers told me he got the higher salary because he turned down the offer and then they offered more. He and I are both high performers. Is this legal?

    1. NaoNao*

      I can’t speak to the legality, but it’s unethical. And the HR rep saying she hasn’t seen a higher offer—what was the offer the male coworker told you about then? ARG.

      I believe Alison’s advice applies here: make a case for your own raise based on performance–and be prepared to walk away if they turn you down.

      If it’s just the two male coworkers, “similar” can always be argued “well it’s not the same—Johan here went to Yale and did an intership with Xbox” or whatever.

      Also you seemed to have bumped into the uky reality that women workers get penalized for not negotiating, but then when they try to, it’s a fail as well. Sorry to hear this.

      1. Natalie*

        I’m not sure the “raise” guidelines apply because you’re not asking for a raise (that is, a merit increase) you’re asking them to correct a disparity that shouldn’t exist. And a 20% raise is super unlikely, so if you use that framing you’re probably not going to get up to parity.

        That said, if you bring this up as a pay disparity issue, you do still need to be prepared for the possibility that your company will not budge, and if that’s the case personally I would be prepared to move on.

    2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      I think the first step is to go to your manager and ask them to explain specifically why your two coworkers make 20% more than you do. Keep in mind that in the vaaaaast majority of cases, it is your and your co-workers’ right to talk about your salary without retaliation, so if any of you get in trouble for talking about it, you’d want to look into legal options both for the discrepancy and for the retaliation for exercising your rights.

      So, your manager should be able to tell you explicitly and clearly why your co-workers make more. If they can’t, then you want to ask the same question to HR, using words like “gender discrimination” and noting that your manager provided an unsatisfactory explanation.

      Of course, it’s worth noting that going through these steps could be setting you up for all kinds of retaliation and unfair reputation hits with your employer and industry (and the fact that that retaliation is also pretty illegal doesn’t stop it from happening). 20% is a dramatic discrepancy and I think its absolutely worth digging into, but what level of risk you’re willing to take on is entirely up to you. Just know your rights and know that your company is on very shaky legal ground already; you (probably) have a lot of legal protections in this scenario.

      1. Junebug*

        I already tried to negotiate for a raise after my performance review a month ago, citing my glowing rating and below market rate salary. My supervisor said he’d discuss it with his boss and I haven’t heard anything since. I didn’t dare mention the magic words or my coworkers’ salaries… Since I’m a grad student and this is my last year, I’m thinking I’ll just move on if necessary and try Alison’s suggestions for not giving my salary history. It’s so galling though.

        1. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

          Eh, negotiating for a merit raise is very different than pointing out illegal discrimination. Even if they didn’t _intend_ to pay you less because you’re a woman, if all men doing the job make 20% more than the woman doing the job and there’s no reason given, that will generally meet the legal threshold for discrimination. I know the power differential makes it a scary thing to do, but the legal protections are there to help level the playing field for you. Obviously it’s your choice, but if it’s happening to you, it’ll probably happen to others in the future!

      2. Jerry Vandesic*

        It’s unlikely that a manager would discuss with you anything about your co-worker’s compensation. You are free to discuss this with your co-worker, but a good manager should never talk about one person’s salary with someone else.

        1. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

          No, a good manager should be able to tell you exactly why your co-worker’s and your salaries are different when there’s a 20% gap. They shouldn’t volunteer someone’s salary to another person, sure, but if I asked a manager straight-up about it and they obfuscated or told me they wouldn’t talk to me about the difference, then they’d definitely be CC’d on an email with HR and their boss with the word “discrimination” in it. It’s just a different ballgame from “discuss one person’s salary with someone else” when that person already knows their co-worker’s salary, it’s been volunteered by said co-worker, and there’s a huge discrepancy.

          1. Jerry Vandesic*

            The is that unless both employees are in the room at the same time, the manager won’t know that salary has been “volunteered by said co-worker.” Feel free to talk with HR, but I’m not going to discuss another employees salary with anyone other than that other employee.

        2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

          (It’s also worth noting that the prevention/airing of these kinds of discrepancies is literally exactly the reason workers have this protection in the first place. If you can’t talk about it with your manager now, what on earth is the point of even having the right to talk about your salary with your co-workers?)

    3. Anonanonanon*

      I believe Alison addressed this recently and said that it does not have to be company wide but that it easier to prove. Equal pay for equal work would apply even for just two people.

  122. Anon for this*

    Applied for a job with a local city government. Part of the application was a list of supplemental questions they use to screen. Annoying thing was how they specifically said “More than 250 words is a good start.” So instead of worrying if my answer was thorough without rambling, instead I was sweating word count. Two of my answers did not hit 250, one of them went over and now I’m worried my application will get tossed out.

    1. Canadian Teapots*

      That seems kind of weirdly vague. I filled out an application for a paid internship through the government and their application read something like “Between 500 and 750 words, etc etc etc”, which sounds a lot more like the kind of restriction you’d put to see who can concisely write about themselves without being too brief or too loquacious.

      If it helps, my thinking is a human being will most likely be reading those answers, and will probably have a kind of rough guideline as to what looks like “enough” rather than imposing a hard cutoff. (and honestly, who wants to work where they would impose such bizarrely arbitrary criteria, anyway?)

      1. Anon for this*

        I can understand giving a range so recruiters don’t have to slog through everything, and it’s probable that’s what they were looking for but phrased it poorly.

  123. Loves Libraries*

    Hi, this is mostly for librarians and school teachers and administrators, and parents,
    I’m a school library media specialist at a private K-12 school in a medium city in the southeast. My school is getting rid of the librarians, either through retirement ( some forced) or job elimination. The administration says that school librarians are a dying breed. I think the administration doesn’t want to pay the librarians the pay their masters degree entitles.Have you found this true in your school? Now I need to decide what to do career wise.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Some states require that the school librarian have an MLIS, but not all. I think this is very dependent on where you are and what the political will is.

    2. Julianne*

      In my district (and a lot of districts in my area) the issue over the past decade hasn’t been the expense of librarians with master’s degrees specifically, it’s the expense of professional librarians and of maintaining school libraries, period. Regardless of how much it cost them to hire a librarian, they could spend less money paying a paraprofessional, or just pulling the plug on the library entirely. A lot of the elementary and middle schools in my district lost their libraries about a decade ago; some are coming back now, but it’s largely through grants or other external funding sources, not through school or district budgets. (I work in a huge urban public school district on the east coast.)

      Quite a few school librarians I know were teachers first, so they tended to return to the classroom. Others went to work in more affluent suburban districts where professionally-staffed school libraries can be appropriately funded. Offhand I can’t think of any former school librarians I know who left for completely different careers, so I can’t be much help there. I’m sorry you are facing this!

    3. SCAnonibrarian*

      Our school media specialists are starting to be required to be teachers as well, so the ‘media center’ just becomes one of their subjects or classrooms, or their assigned ‘homeroom’ depending on how things are set up.

      I think it’s horribly short sighted, but yes, I do agree that it seems pretty dire. Can you easily or cheaply get a teaching certificate to become a certified teacher? Otherwise, I hate to say it, but librarianship in general is very stagnant right now, so if you pivot away from schools into academic or public, you’re joining a very large scrum for a very few scraps of positions and not much movement.

      It might be better to look into info-adjacent fields, especially research for tech or startups or considering joining the vast ranks of government drones. (welcome, the benefits are great, eventually you get resigned to the shitty paychecks)

      1. Loves Libraries*

        Thanks for the advice. To me it still seems counterproductive to eliminate libraries and librarians with all the emphasis on reading now.

  124. epi*

    Does anyone have an article or resource that helped them rewrite their LinkedIn? It’s fine if it’s an AAM post, I just didn’t see a recent one, and Googling brought me to things that didn’t seem that credible.

    My LinkedIn is OK and has been getting me some attention from recruiters, but I’m not totally happy with it. I’ve written up my descriptions of past roles in pretty different formats, mostly because an old job gave me a *lot* of different responsibilities that could be useful in the future and are not obvious from the job title. I have a short narrative description of all the jobs but this one, because I can’t figure out what to do but make a list. I’d also like to remove or deemphasize some groups and interests that were more relevant to that older job.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I did the free trial of the Premium for LinkedIn and revamped my profile using some of the advice given. For example I flooded my skills section with all of the relevant terms I could think of (I only had a handful at first). Now when I look at jobs and it says “You have X out of the 9 primary skills this employer is looking for” the X is no longer 0 or 1 but closer to 6 or 7. I couldn’t figure that out before, but it’s because of the specific key words used so basically have every variant of the key words for your field or experience that exist.

      My LinkedIn now reads a lot more like my resume. I used to list all my jobs going way back because I was contacting people from those jobs and asking to connect, so they had some reference for how they knew me. Now for various reasons my experience only goes back the past 10 or so years because a lot of employers have the option to check out the LinkedIn profile of candidates.

  125. ab15*

    Hey! So I’m leaving my job to go to law school. They know I’m leaving but I think they think I’m staying here until I move, which I can’t do because my lease is up and school is in another state. I’m going to move home with my parents for a few months to save before school, but I already gave notice to my building. I’m salaried and at-will, I just feel awkward. Any tips on how to phrase this to my boss would be great.
    I also am open to working part time hourly (which I did here before I started full time), but don’t know how to broach that topic. This office is weird in that no one speaks all day and people communicate almost strictly via messenger (obviously I won’t do this that way), and the president of the company has never set foot in the office to my knowledge.

    1. CTT*

      Since you’re moving to another state, I think you can frame it as saying you want to transition to part-time so you can prepare for the move. How much time are you planning to take off between ending work and starting school?

  126. GenderGap?*

    I recently met with my boss to ask for a raise. It’s something I had been thinking about for awhile, and after doing my research, discovered I am undercompensated for an average performer in my area and role, much less a high performer (which I am considered based on the feedback of my peers and superiors that I work with daily). I met with my boss, made my case that I am managing a lean team that handles large/complex projects, and we remain profitable. I have started two new employee engagement initiatives in the past year from scratch, including one that specifically develops women leaders (I’m a woman, btw). The other initiative has gotten incredibly positive feedback and we have over half of the company voluntarily participating in it. Both programs have the full support and encouragement from the big boss. During our conversation, my immediate boss was incredibly unprofessional, kept trying to deflect, never asked me a price range, and when I did tell him the range I should be compensated within, he acted shocked and offended. He also would not agree to a timeframe to follow up, but I was finally able to get him to agree (via followup email) to another sit down, but it’s a month away!

    Right after our meeting, I found out something that really ticked me off. I discovered that a male employee in my same role, with the half the years experience (I have 15, he has 8), is making 20% more than I am. If the numbers I was told are true, his base salary is 10% more than mine and his bonuses are double what mine have been, which makes the gap a full 20%. After talking with a few of my (female) peers, we realized we had all heard the same information and he is paid more than several of us with quite a bit more experience, standing, and respect in the company. I can’t help but think it is related to gender, but I don’t know that for sure. I don’t know what other male employees in my role make, so I’m not sure if he is just an outlier, or if we have a broader issue. I know I have to say something though, as I no longer trust the company to be fairly compensating me.

    Any suggestions moving forward? For reference, I have tentatively broached the topic with a few other male employees, and while they seem shocked, none are willing to share their compensation with me for comparison’s sake. This is one of the old school companies that tells you that you can’t talk about your salary because it is considered sensitive financial information, which is BS as we all know by reading the blog. I guess I’m just looking for advice on how to move forward and what to say? The plan right now is for several of us women to approach one of the female partners together (not my immediate boss), and ask that she look into it. Any other advice?

    7. Foxy Hedgehog*

      Wow, Zak’s company’s HR department really didn’t cover themselves with glory here, did they?

      (1) It’s not the victim’s decision what to do about it, it’s HR’s decision along with the managers’. (2) Why would nobody ask the thief why she did it? There might be a bizarre misunderstanding behind everything (like she thought she was throwing out her own uneaten lunch from yesterday or something). (3) The “all hands” e-mail in lieu of actually talking to the thief and figuring out what happened.

      Also, the way this has blown up, I’m kind of afraid that the only negative repercussions will be for Zak for tweeting this out into the world.

      1. Kate*

        Right?!?! I don’t understand why no one, not HR, not shrimp guy, would say, “So, btw, we have video showing you do this. Why would you do that?” They’re all just going to be passive aggressive about it?

      1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        You should tell the yeller that it pales in comparison to some of the letters you get. Like the spicy lunch stealer!

    9. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Holy crap….man that’s good. Maybe he can come here and update us all on the drama. Classic!

    10. Windchime*

      Haha, that is so funny. And the fact that she said, “Wow, who would do that!” So bizarre.

  128. I was a Jimless Pam*

    This is a super basic question but I haven’t seen it addressed yet— I had a phone screen with a company last Thursday for a job I would love. It seemed like it went well, and they said they’d get back to me in 7-10 days. Monday is day 10. If I don’t hear from them by Tuesday morning should I reach out?

    2. Badmin*

      It’s also a holiday weekend for many people, Easter and Passover. So that could add to the delay.

    4. I was a Jimless Pam*

      That makes me feel better! As I was picking out my daughter’s clothes for our seder tonight I realized that could be the case.

      1. I was a Jimless Pam*

        Also it’s a nonprofit, and as I have worked at three so far, I should *know* how that goes.

  129. Jascha*

    I want to thank everyone who replied to my comment on last week’s thread (about language to politely decline compromise on my conditions for resignation). Everything was super helpful and confidence-inspiring, so thank you so much!
    Good news: I hardly had to use any persuasive language at all. I was essentially offered exactly what I need to stay on in the medium term, followed by my eventual (actual) resignation. A good compromise that gives me everything I really need. Thanks so much for helping, guys!

  130. Kim Gwenhwyfar*

    Was hoping for a bit of input from other commenters on here.
    I work in a legal office and draft deeds (mortgage and property ownership transfer). These deeds are nigh impossible to read for everyone (sometimes up to and including myself because banks be crazy about their terms and conditions). When a deed is finished, I make a PDF and then send it to the clients. Pretty standard stuff.

    However, this afternoon I was listening to a podcast about audio-books (the Smart Bitches podcast) and thinking about how audiobooks can be a great and useful tool for busy people, but also for those with dyslexia. Cue the thought that sending stuff in PDF-form, usually in either Arial of Times New Roman size 12, might be difficult for people with learning disabilities and/or visual impairments. I’m at -4 in both eyes and find soms formats or programs difficult to use, which I know is nothing compared to other people’s issues.

    Long intro aside: I know there are programs that may be able to change PDF to text and/or text-to-speach, but I want people to have the least barriers to their information. Would it be a good idea to add ‘Please contact me for a PDF with a bigger font or dyslexia-friendly typeface of your choosing’ in the body of my e-mail? Unfortunately, sending WORD-docs is not allowed.

    If ya’ll could give me some input I would appreciate it a lot, even if it is just “don’t think for those with learning disabilities and/or visual impairments, we’ll manage.” Thanks in advance!

    1. CTT*

      I think just saying “If you have issues reading this text, please let me know so I can send an alternative” would be fine.

      1. Kim Gwenhwyfar*

        Thank you! I think making it a general statement might be better. Really want to work out the kinks before I discuss this with management.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Yeah, I think as long as you tell people that you can provide another option if they need it, you are probably covered. I think the big thing is not to assume what people can or can not manage.

      So, one option might be, to use CTT’s language or something like, “If you need this in another format for any reason, or if there are any concerns with reading the document, do please let me know. We can work with you to send a format better suited for your needs that also complies with the law.”

    3. ModernHypatia*

      One note is that PDFs are not necessarily accessible to screenreaders – formatting in the PDF can be really confusing. (There are ways to fix this. It depends a bit on what software you’re using, but you’re looking for something like ‘reading order’. Basically, this is you telling the file what sequence things go in.)

      On the other hand “Please let me know if you need an accessible format and what would work best for you” works fine, and people can take it from there.

  131. Not a Real Giraffe*

    Help me finish composing this letter, please!

    I am mailing out copies of a dinner program to all high-level donors for a recent fundraising event and need a brief letter to accompany the mailing. I only have these two sentences so far and I feel like I need one or two more or else it looks silly:

    “Thank you for your contribution to the 2018 [Fundraising Event], in support of the [Cause]. Enclosed is a copy of the evening’s dinner program.”

    1. Anna*

      Something like:
      Your contribution has helped us reach our goal and we look forward to celebrating our success on [date].

    2. Uhmealeah*

      Insert something about the importance, value, or impact of their contribution towards the cause into between the two you have. If you’re able to personalize it, do so. For example, “Your contribution [of $$$] has…”

    3. Loves Libraries*

      say something like “we are looking forward to having you at the dinner where you will learn more about the great work we are able to do because of your generosity.”

    5. Hmmm*

      Okay you really need to be looking at your own brand guidelines and strategy on stuff like this.

      1. Canadian Teapots*

        This could be something NaRG could ask $BOSS to help formalize if this is a routine thing and not already set down in a manual.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      “We hope to see you there.”
      OR
      “Please RSVP by X date.”
      OR
      “The evening promises to be an enjoyable one, we hope you can come.”
      OR
      “The evening’s highlight will be x,y and z. We think everyone will enjoy this.”

  132. New Manager*

    Advice and suggestions, please! After 20 years running the payroll department all by myself, I have hired an assistant to start next week. What would you, as a new employee, want your manager to discuss with you on your first day? Anything I can do to welcome her? I’ve never been a supervisor, and it’s been so long since I was a new employee , that I have no clue what I can do to make her onboarding a pleasant experience.

      1. New Manager*

        This is wonderful! Thanks so much. Without this as a guideline, I am afraid I would flounder, leaving a bad impression on my new hire!

    2. HR preggers*

      I’ve found long term managers tend to forgot the little things that they’ve known for so long they forget newbies don’t know them. Where’s the bathroom, where’s the fridge, company specific jargon, etc.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        First thing I tell all new interns, volunteers, employees, … is where the bathroom is.

  133. Almost Violet Miller*

    Has anyone worked as a cost of living surveyor? What are the pros and cons? Any advice is welcome.
    (I am full of questions this weekend.)

  134. bureaucracy much?*

    This might be amusing for US people, (East European job paperwork requirement)
    This is a whole bureaucracy list to just put in a job application (for a job that requires 1 year of experience):
    – Degree in (XY) from a specific School in that country / copy of diploma (certified/aka notarized)
    -Transcript (original, but they’d also accept certified/notarized copy)
    -Biography (I’m guessing they mean resume or CV)
    – Cover letter (they call it letter of motivation)
    – Something called proof of work experience (and it has to be original, coming from the employer)
    – 2 recommendations
    – XY country citizenship certificate (original or certified/notarized copy).
    Documents that can also be copies must not be older than 6 months.

    Two things they removed (on suggestion of how inconvenient and costly it is ): medical (in this country medical can only be done in a few specific doctor’s offices and it’s mainly done AFTER you get and accept job offer),
    and the thing called certificate of no criminal activity (taken out from the Court that proves one has no criminal past, aka background check that a candidate has to pay for).
    And the final thing: all of these have to be mailed /hand delivered and will not be returned afterward.

  135. OwlElectrician*

    Does anyone have tips for how to handle coworkers when you have moved or are moving from an admin/clerical position to a non-clerical program director position in the same work unit? My work unit is mostly supportive (there has been some “are you sure you can’t just do this *ONE* clerical thing?” and “can’t you just answer this *ONE* question about a clerical thing?” stuff from them specifically) but I’m also surrounded by multiple other units who don’t get the memo a lot of times, so to speak. Office politics are important, so I can’t just say “dude, not my job; go ask A,” but I also can’t say, “Oh, sure, I’ll do that *ONE* clerical thing for you!” (Caveat: the admin who now helps my unit is not happy about the whole thing, so people are hesitant to go to her/him; I don’t consider this person my admin or ask for things from him/her.) Just looking for tips and ideas for how to respectfully cement this change and shoo people away from my door.

    (There’s nothing wrong with clerical/admin work. It’s important work. It’s just not my work anymore, and my teapot is gloriously overflowing with my new job responsibilities.)

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “Actually, can you go to Jane for that? She’s the one handling that now.”

      If it makes you feel more comfortable, you can add “and I’m on deadline right now.”

  136. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

    Hey friendos! Question for the room: what do you wish your interns/entry level hires knew coming in that they often don’t?

    I’m thinking of stuff around professional norms, how to have good relationships with managers and peers, even tools that it would be useful for them to have more of a background in than they typically do? (I’m not sure if this is normal, but I had never used an electronic/shared calendar before my first internship and it was a bit of a learning curve to figure out how that and each subsequent organization used them.)

    1. Overeducated*

      One thing I experienced as an intern, and seen in interns when I was working, is that when most of your experience is in school, you tend to think you have to complete a project all by yourself before showing the final version to your boss, like writing a paper for a course. The difference in the working world is that often bosses want to be kept in the loop more throughout the process and give feedback on drafts or components long before the “due date,” because often the final products represent your boss, your team, or your entire organization, not just you. So it’s good to be explicit about that professional norm if it exists in your workplace.

    2. Temperance*

      Honestly, I wish more interns were aware that they aren’t on the same level as the professionals in the office, and they aren’t above the secretarial/administrative staff.

  137. Desk Gardener*

    Yes open thread! I need some help!!

    So i’m being laid off today since there’s a new owner for the company. I’m being contracted for the next two months to finish up projects, which I actually appreciate so I’ve got some income for the job hunting period i’m now in. Now my old boss is trying to get me to work for their friend here in town so I have more than one short term contract. She contacts all her employees, but I’ve had multiple peers, including the new owner, strongly suggest I look at it from all angles as her friend can be “the worst half of that friendship”. I took it as a polite but indirect way of saying if I thought my first boss was toxic, I should run for it rather than work for her friend who could be worse. The extra income would be nice, but I think my energy should be spent in moving and job hunting instead of being in the middle of a toxic friendship between their two companies.

    Now I’m being pushed to call her friend and tell her my skills, but I need a graceful way to decline without ruining the relationship with my old boss I’ve tried to hold on to for a now much needed reference. Thoughts?

    1. Anonanonanon*

      Is this a short term job? If so you could say that you really need to focus on finding something long term. Or you can find something else about the job that is not what you are looking for right now other than “I don’t want to work for your friend.”

      1. Desk Gardener*

        Thanks for your reply! I think my old boss’s heart is in the right place, and her friend’s company is in my field, but when I tried “I’m not sure how long I’ll be here since New Boss’s contract is only two months” she twisted the intention that it would be “long term, her contracts are constantly renewed, you can work anywhere, it’s in your field, I’m doing you a favor”. I’m starting to think I’ll have to keep making excuses and hope I can find a job so I can say “oh I would but I’ve got something full time lined up”. Not sure if that would be more of a problematic behavior than tabling it outright.

        PS. I forgot to mention I have met the friend in several instances in my time here. I have nothing against her personally, but you definitely can feel the frenemies aura between them and I’ve seen the chaotic manger style. So it isn’t just hearsay I’m going off of.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      “It’s really nice of you to connect me with her, but I need to make sure I spend enough time and energy lining up my next full-time gig. So I’m happy to work for you, but I can’t take on more at this time.”

  138. Overeducated*

    Thoughts on today’s Washington Post story about Just Born (Peeps company)’s pension lawsuit, and the ways retirement plans are so different for different generations of workers? I’m also curious about the experiences of posters here with employer-sponsored retirement plans, self-employment, different plans/groups within the same company, and so on.

    1. Oldie but Goodie*

      I’m 59 years old. When I began my career I expected to retire at 55. If I want to collect my full Social Security payout, I can’t retire until age 67. This is not what I signed up for!

    2. Frankie Bergstein*

      I think/worry a lot about the future of retirement. It feels like retirement benefits are decreasing (I missed two pension opportunities by one year at two different employers! If I were just 1-2 years older!) but no generation — not folks retiring now, not millennials — have quite enough to be ready for retirement (on average).

      I guess my anxiety about everyone’s retirement is motivating me to save and ensure that my near ones are saving too…

    3. Book Badger*

      I don’t have access to the WP, but from what my Employee Benefits professor says, the change in benefits over time is largely due to the changes in what kinds of benefit plans are offered (Defined Benefit v. Deferred Compensation v. 401(k)s and all that), the lack of unions, and the rise of independent contractor work. There have also been some decently recent court cases (like in the past 25 years or so) making it much harder to sue people who mismanage the plan or otherwise screw you over benefits-wise.

      Basically, the whole system is swinging in favor of employers and employees are getting shafted.

    4. fposte*

      My good news bad news joke: the good news is I’m eligible for an old-fashioned pension. The bad news is it’s from the state of Illinois. (One of the most poorly funded in the country and not backed up by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.)

      They keep trying to find ways to cut pensions, but the state constitution protects pensions pretty strongly, so it’s a rock and a hard place. I think I will probably get something pretty close to what I signed on for and paid into, but those after me probably won’t. However, I have to plan for both eventualities, which is a little nerve-racking, especially since I’m not eligible for Social Security (we only pay into the pension system, not SS). We do also have good access to tax-advantaged accounts and I have made much use of them.

      Most of the students I work with will be going into schools and public libraries, and I get frustrated with how bad their retirement-account options tend to be. Districts generally seem to take the name they know from the first vendor who offers without any regard to the expenses of a plan, so people in some of the poorer public service tracks get to keep less of their own money. Feh.

      1. Canadian Teapots*

        Wow, I thought Social Security was like, universal. O_O

        *starts casting worried looks at the Canada Pension Plan*

        1. fposte*

          Here’s the U.S. deal: if you work for an employer with its own qualified pension plan, you don’t pay into Social Security. Those are the exception rather than the rule, but they’re still there.

          Here’s an interesting modification of the deal: if you worked for a time where you did pay into Social Security as well as a time for an employer with a pension (like, one place for the first twenty years and the other for the next twenty), your Social Security may be reduced.

          1. ScienceTeacherHS*

            This one depends on the state. In Kansas I pay into both KPERS and Social Security and I am eligible to receive both when I retire. Of course, that’s assuming that Kansas can pay out KPERS when I retire, and considering my state’s financial predicament it doesn’t look good. But I have to pay in 6% regardless.

        2. Shandon*

          Right now there’s a lot of uproar in Kentucky because the state senate approved a bill that is essentially taking away teacher’s pensions (as I understand it, knowing a few teachers). They don’t get social security because they had a pension plan, so their retirement is really being messed with. Today in a couple of counties so many teachers called out in protest they had to close school for the day. It’s a mess.

    5. Thlayli*

      The pensions time-bomb is happening all over the western world. People are living longer, and populations are shrinking rather than increasing. Result is there’s less pension money to go around. Defined benefit pensions are going to be a thing of the past very soon. We’ll all be working longer.

    6. Frankie Bergstein*

      Frankie’s PSA: *jazz hands* social security is not – alone – sufficient to make ends meet!

  139. Teapot Cleaner*

    Hey, guys, my boss has brought a very bad person from one site to our site, and her relatives work on my site. This person has a history of a bad attitude. She was upset because she didn’t get a promotion that she was forcing on everyone. Therefore my boss moved her to our site so she didn’t have to deal with being led by the person that did get the promotion.
    My boss lets her substitute as the team leader at our site even though they are not hiring for that. I am not comfortable with this because tasks are handed out by her. Her relatives are on my shift so I think that’s favoritism. I’m being very vague. Sorry for the lack of details I’m just overwhelmed. I can’t talk to anyone about this. I had thought before about telling my boss, but I do not have the courage. Besides whats done is done. We as employees come to work, and this is what he is serving to the table.

    Morarl of the story: Favoritism, conflict of interest taking place at work.

    1. valentine*

      I hope you can find a better job. Your boss is coddling this person and increasing their family’s footprint.

      1. Teapot Cleaner*

        Thank you so much for responding. “Coddling” is exactly what is going on. This bad person trained me when I was a new employee. My boss left me with her for two months as a trainee. It was horrible, and to now take orders from her as she assigns rooms to me or others that are not related to her is really bad. She is not professional and cusses in public during our meetings. Every time there is an open position she sways my boss towards hiring a relative of hers, and he does it.

        The good news is that I have gained some skills in office work, and CPR resuscitation through college. I applied for a position doing something different. Hopefully, they call me this week or next week.

        Again, thanks for your response it means a lot to me.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like you have a handle on this. The light at the end of the tunnel is, indeed, an on-coming train.

      Sometimes the problems in a workplace are too big for one person to solve. This is way too big for you to fix, especially on your own. For one thing, your bosses need to grow spines. All we can really do in these instances is get ourselves out of the situation while we still remember this stuff is NOT normal. If we stay in the situation too long we forget what normal looks like.

      Brush off your resume and tell yourself, “Onward! I deserve better than THIS!”

      1. Teapot Cleaner*

        Thank you for your response. This is great advice about applying somewhere else. I have applied, and I’m looking forward to it. Hopefully, I get a call for an interview.
        Aside from the relatives at work that clique up and fight each other’s battles, there are other issues with a coworker that befriends a lead. As a result, the lead sends me up to do the friends rooms all the time.
        Your reminder that this is NOT normal is great reassurance that I need to get out.
        I am very close to earning an Associates Degree that is skills based on employment. The future does look promising. I am hoping to get out of manual labor so I can contribute with my knowledge and skills.

  140. Argh!*

    The only thing worse than being on too many committees is not being on enough committees.

    Agree or disagree?

  141. CopperPenny*

    Video Interview!
    I have a video interview scheduled for this evening! Any advice? It’s for an account management position and most of my experience is administrative. Front office in medical clinics. I’m getting nervous. I’m so ready to move on from this position.

    1. MCL*

      Put a little post-it near your webcam so you remember to look at the camera during the interview, rather than at your screen (will look like you’re looking elsewhere) – it’s okay to glance at the screen, but try to look at the camera as often as you can. Have a neutral background like a wall, rather than a room behind you. Avoid patterns on your clothing, especially vertical stripes, because it can be harder for the camera to pick up. Make sure you have a good internet connection and will not be interrupted. Good luck!

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      A headset might also be a good idea if you have one, depending on your computer’s speak and mic quality. Seconding the look at the camera advice.

    3. Helena Handbasket*

      Try to position your webcam at eye level, so higher than where it normally would be. Makes for a more natural-feeling conversation.

  142. SheWoulf*

    I need some advice on dealing with an employee who deliberately looks for ways to be offended. For example – she makes/buys snacks for the office every Friday. Someone made a comment about how they were getting fat off the stuff she brings – and she took it seriously, to the point of crying in the bathroom and making sure we all knew she was offended. For some back history, this isn’t the first time, but it’s become enough of a pattern that I believe this is the issue, not anything else. She works in an office with 4 other women. I am their manager, and I work in an office outside of their office – they are in cubicles.

    Another example – and probably a much better one for what I am really dealing with – she recently keyed a new account wrong. She didn’t do it on purpose, she got two conflicting pieces of information when she got the new account so she verified it with the sales manager. The sales manager gave her the wrong answer, which led to her keying the order for the new account incorrectly. The account executive who now has “ownership” of the account, asked her why it was keyed the way it was. She explained what happened, and he expressed some very VERY mild frustration that she didn’t just key the order as it was written (had she done that, it would have been correct). She got very upset and defensive, to the point where she kept asking what she did wrong, etc. It was very clear that she didn’t do anything wrong, but she wanted to take the blame on herself, or was so upset she couldn’t see what really happened and how she could have fixed it.

    She does this a lot, to the point where I am concerned that she is using being offended or upset as a way to control or manipulate others around her. I have to address this, and I’m not sure how. Any advice?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think step one is to let go of the idea that this is deliberate act of manipulation. It’ll sour any conversation you’re going to have with her and the people I have worked with who have these reactions are often coming from a place of insecurity and fear. I think it is best to assume she doesn’t understand how unprofessional her reactions have been.

      So, I would start by sitting her down and explaining. She may very well react poorly to this, so you have to be prepared to say something like, “I can see you are getting upset. Do you need a few minutes?”

      1. Anonanonanon*

        Also, the idea that she got defensive and upset when being reprimanded (even mildly) when she didn’t even do anything wrong is reasonable. She didn’t want to take the blame on herself, it was being put on her by someone higher up!

        1. SheWoulf*

          No no no, it wasn’t a reprimand. It was quite literally:
          AE – “Hey Sara, I see that the new Doobie Brothers account was keyed for 18 cigars at every show. I’m pretty sure I wrote on the order that they were only supposed to get 10. Did I mess up the order, or did the customer call in about it?” (side note, he absolutely questioned if it was his fault)
          Sara “No I got the account, and while the your order said 10, the agreement we have at the venue is to supply 18. I didn’t know what answer was right, so I asked Darryl, the sales manager. He said to go by the contract with the venue.”
          AE – “Okay, no problem. Thank you for catching that. I am going to submit the paperwork though to decrease that down to 10 because the customer won’t pay for 18.”
          Sara – “But I don’t understand! What did I do wrong?”
          Me (I was in the office and I was overhearing the conversation): Sara, you didn’t do anything wrong. I appreciate that you thought to find out the right answer. Clearly Darryl gave you the wrong answer, and no one here blames you at all. No harm, no foul.”
          Followed by being very meek the rest of the day, speaking to everyone very quietly with downcast eyes. She didn’t answer me when I stepped in and tried to avert the freaking out that I knew would escalate.

          Please believe me when I state that her reaction was not normal.

      2. SheWoulf*

        Thank you – I definitely wouldn’t approach from this angle, I know better than that. But I believe that I can tell you guys the whole story without sugar coating it, because you’re managers like me and can read between the lines. Hopefully that’s the case here!

        1. valentine*

          Someone trained her to respond to the slightest difference as a catastrophic failure that’s all her fault. You can ask her what she was afraid would happen in each case (or use a hypothetical so she won’t derail by taking this to mean she did do something wrong wrong wrong in each case and you’ve been saving her punichment and you’re serving your revenge cold). She might say she’s afraid you’ll fire her and everyone is secretly mad at her. Maybe ask her to practice doing nothing and moving on with her day when people say there’s nothing for her to amend.

          1. Anonymous72*

            It took me years to undo damage from one boss who would call me in and scream at me about things like a misplaced comma in an email. It takes a conscious effort for me to not overreact to perceived or real mistakes on my end, no matter how small, still, to this day.

    2. SpaceNovice*

      She might need to explore WHY she reacts so strongly to negative feedback. That’s definitely not normal, but it could be because of life experiences and not because of attempts to manipulate/purposefully offended. Is she a good worker? Does she generally get along with people? Then it’s likely she’s internalized that all mistakes are absolutely awful. You don’t even need to be abused; just have an environment in your life where you’re expected to be perfect is enough to cause such overreactions and potentially a very big lack of self-esteem/confidence.

      However you speak to her, because you WILL have to address it, make sure to stress that it is okay to make mistakes. People are not perfect. Everyone is human. Maybe tell her a mistake or two you’ve made similar to the ones that have upset her and how you dealt with them. Then keep on repeating that reinforcement that it’s okay. Also, let her know when she does well and treat others the same.

      (You can probably look up more detailed ways to handle it, but basically they all boil down to helping her rewrite her internal monologue without becoming her therapist, as they’re licensed and you’re not.)

      1. Kathenus*

        Along these lines, part of the discussion could be that taking feedback well is an important and necessary skill in all jobs, and you want to help her develop and refine this ability.

  143. DanniellaBee*

    I had a really discouraging job interview this week. It was for what seemed to be a perfect fit on paper. I exceeded the qualifications they were asking for. I sailed through the phone screen and was set to in person interview Monday. I arrived at their very fancy downtown office and was feeling really excited. I met with the hiring manager first, then the person I would be replacing, followed by a VP. The conversations seemed to be going really well and they seemed pleased with my answers and were engaging with me in an animated way. I was set to interview with 3 other people that day. The VP left and I was just sitting in the room for around 20 minutes waiting for the next person. The recruiter then comes in and says they have an unusual situation that has just occured. They put out an offer that morning and the person had just accepted while I was in the course of talking with the VP. The recruiter said she was there to show me out. No apology for wasting my time, nothing. I was very taken aback and felt completely disrespected and used. I managed to say thank you for the opportunity and leave quickly.
    Has anyone ever had something like that happen? I think I am probably lucky because if they will treat a job seeker like that they can’t possibly treat their employees well. Why would they put out an offer and still have me come in? Why not let me know that morning they need to put things on hold so I don’t waste hours of my time away from my current job? It all seemed so shady and rude to me.

    1. Nina in NYC*

      I don’t think this is a bad sign, more like a miscommunication. Maybe the recruiter didn’t know the offer was put out, or maybe they did and the person hadn’t accepted. It’s normal to feel slighted but doubtful that you can make the assumption that they treat their employees badly. Sure the recruiter could have apologized but not worth feeling disrespected and used.

    2. Pollygrammer*

      I can’t imagine not apologizing/sympathizing with someone in those circumstances. “Sorry about this” doesn’t cost you anything. I think that the recruiter at least behaved pretty shabbily and the whole thing seems pretty disorganized.

  144. Bird*

    Is there anyone there who is successfully navigating having two full-time jobs at once?

    Background: I’m under a lot of financial pressure – my partner’s student loan is crippling, and her current job contract is up in a couple of months. Despite the fact that she has been applying for jobs since this past October, she’s having very little luck. She’s in a highly-skilled field that requires a particular professional certification, which she has, but employers just don’t seem that interested. The odds of her having something lined up by the time her contract is over are looking slim.

    I was just hired full time, in a remote job that has a relatively flexible schedule. I’m also working a part-time job and finishing my dissertation, so I’m no stranger to long days. Although the salary for my job is very good, it’s not enough to support us both AND make student loan payments. So, I’m looking at trying to get another job and just working 12-15 hour days for several years. Even though my PhD is in a field that has little viability outside of academia, I’ve spent a lot of time developing a variety of transferable skills, and I have solid job experience. But one thing I don’t know how to do is try to negotiate two full-time jobs at once. Any guidance would be great.

    1. Anonanonanon*

      It might make more sense for your partner to look into jobs in retail or a restaurant to tide her over until she gets a job in her field. Two full time jobs is a lot.

      1. Anonanonanon*

        She can also look into a loan forbearance while she tries to find a job. Interest keeps accruing, but it can be a temporary relief.

        1. Nacho*

          Right, I did that. Payments are capped at a percentage of your income, so if you don’t have a job, or if your job doesn’t’ pay enough, you don’t have to pay anything towards your loan.

          1. Bird*

            Right, but the second you start making more money, the payments are back. Except now the amount you owe is exponentially larger.

            1. Alex*

              I did income based repayment and when I submitted the form that said I was unemployed, I didn’t have to pay anything for an entire year.

              1. Bird*

                Again, the amount you owe after doing such a scheme has now grown exponentially. Her income is reassessed by the loan company every 6 months.

                1. NaoNao*

                  Well, I’m not sure it’s exponential. The interest accrues, but it doesn’t get higher. If you’re in the USA, which I’m feeling like maybe you’re not? forbearance is a tool that the US Government (from which the loans originated) gives you to “pause” your repayment liability. So your credit report is protected and they don’t garnish your wages while you’re making minimum wage, and you won’t be reported as “defaulting” on your loans.
                  If you pause your payments for 6 months, let’s say you owe 10,000, with an interest of 3%. That’s 300 a month, times 6, which is 1800 dollars. So you’ve added just shy of 2000 to your overall total. Yes, it’s grown, but not to, say, 100,000.
                  If she doesn’t have money, she can’t pay the loans no matter what and quite frankly I don’t think you should be paying them for her to avoid interest!

                2. Natalie*

                  @NaoNao, they might be talking about income contingent repayment – under that scheme, any unpaid interest is capitalized annually.

                3. Bird*

                  @Natalie: yes, my partner’s situation what you’re speaking about.

                  So, sure, it’s not exponential in the strict, mathematical sense. But when you start off owing, say, $100K, and it balloons to nearly $200K over the course of a 3 year residency, I believe the colloquial meaning is apt. We are in the US.

                  And no one is paying “for” anyone else. We are living together and share expenses as we are able. If she cannot get a job right away, we would both still contribute to our household (such as it is) in some way, even if the financial part of that contribution is unequal for a while. I’m not doing this to hold it over her head, and she’s not expecting to be taken care of.

        2. Bird*

          So, she’s in a specialized medical field – she is a doctor with a residency and a field-specific board certification. While she was completing her residency, she qualified for an income-based repayment plan, but the amount she owed ballooned. We’ve managed to get it back down to pre-residency levels, but it’s still over $100K. Without giving too much away, she does not qualify for any loan forgiveness schemes or refinancing. We’re trying to get ahead of this enormous burden; otherwise, we will never, ever be free of it; I am not exaggerating when I say that we will likely both be dead before we can pay it off if we can’t keep aggressively making payments. Even if she gets a retail or restaurant job, we will not be able to afford monthly payments that touch more than the interest.

          I want to also be clear that she is applying for jobs basically every day. Her application materials look great. Her references are great. She is applying not only in her field but also in adjacent industries.

          Thus, my question stands: how can I manage two full-time jobs? This is what it will take for us to afford basic living expenses and student loan payments.

          1. AnotherLibrarian*

            I don’t think you can. First of all, most full time jobs aren’t going to hire you if you have another full-time job. Secondly, you’re talking about working literally every day and I don’t know how you’d do that without a mental break down. I barely managed a full-time job, a part-time job and grad school and I only did it for six months. At that point, I quit one of the jobs.

            I can’t imagine trying to do this for a year or longer. I don’t think it’s a viable option for you, but I wish you luck.

            1. Bird*

              I have been working every day for the entire course of my MA and PhD. Every year I have been a full-time student while working at least two part-time jobs and multiple volunteer (for professional development) positions. Yeah, I’m exhausted, but I’m also still young and relatively healthy.

          2. Natalie*

            we will never, ever be free of it; I am not exaggerating when I say that we will likely both be dead before we can pay it off if we can’t keep aggressively making payments.

            As a thought exercise: and? So what? No one’s going to pull you out of the grave to shake more coins out of your pockets. If you have kids, they’re not responsible for it.

            If your partner can get a job that would cover the interest only, then you don’t go forwards but you also don’t go backwards. That’s a pretty good situation to be in given what you’re describing.

            1. Bird*

              I’m not sure why this is somehow not a big deal? Owing hundreds of thousands of dollars (to a company whose entire purpose for existing appears to be fucking over young people) for the rest of your life is pretty fucking terrifying.

              It limits literally everything we do – where we can afford to live, what we eat, the kind of healthcare we can get, our ability to save long-term, how often we see our families, our sense of ever having any kind of stability. Forget enjoying anything, forget retiring ever. So, there’s the thought exercise. That’s the so what: because someday we would like to think about literally anything else than the fact that we are being slowly crushed to death by debt.

              1. Natalie*

                I didn’t say it wasn’t a big deal, but you are catastrophizing this. Capitalized interest is capped at 10% of your principal per year. Even if your partner is out of work for months, you’re not getting anywhere close to the never-retiring-never-enjoying-anything horror story that you’re telling yourself.

                But you seem really stuck on this particular solution, so best of luck. Don’t kill yourself from exhaustion. That actually prevents you from ever enjoying anything ever again.

              2. Natalie*

                I’m sorry, that previous comment was kind of cranky.

                You sound like you are operating from pure panic and not actually from a thought out plan. And I empathize, because I can get that way about money a lot, too. But you’re not talking about at ticking time bomb that has to be disarmed immediately. There is no balloon payment or foreclosure looming. And the worst case scenario that you’re describing doesn’t make logical sense. In income contingent repayment, capitalized unpaid interest is capped at 10% of the loan initial principle per year. Under that scheme, this loan can’t double for *10 years*. The other income driven payment plans don’t capitalize interest until you leave the plan.

                If the worst case scenario happens and your partner is on an income contingent repayment for their entire life, the balance of the loan is forgiven after 25 years. Even under that unlikely scenario, your life doesn’t become a joyless, pointless existence just because you’re poorer than you had planned on.

                1. Bird*

                  Well, I’m cranky too, so I guess we’re both in good company.

                  While I’m feeling pretty frustrated about the situation, I’m not actually panicking. Panicking looks like going out immediately, without asking for advice, and just getting some job, any job. Or freezing in place, unable to consider anything. I’m literally here asking for help coming up with a plan. In terms of a ticking time bomb, well, no, we won’t be foreclosed on. But I’m not sure why I’m not allowed to be scared about being evicted or unable to pay regular and/or unexpected bills. None of that is great in any scale.

                  Additionally, at this point, yeah, it’s only the one loan. Two years ago it was three loans; we’ve managed to get it down to the last and largest. She can no longer get income-based repayment because she’s currently making too much. The largest loan is a staggering amount of money, so 10% still turns out to be a huge number. We cannot refinance it. There is no federal program in which she can work to have it forgiven.

                  Finally, in 25 years, we will still be in a situation where we’ve been unable to plan for the future, unable to build the kind of stable financial foundation that we need to live into older age. We’ve been working tirelessly just to get to where we are now, doing everything we’re supposed to be doing, according to the steaming pile of crap that we’ve been served. So forgive me if I’m not extremely enthusiastic about that prospect.

          3. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

            I think two full time jobs will absolutely wear you down, but if you feel like you have to do it, you find a way. I had a full time job and two part time jobs, and it was a long, hard slog. The fact that your job right now is remote and flexible is great. That means it can work around the schedule of another job. Just be very careful if you have to commute to one of the jobs on very little sleep. One of my coworkers fell asleep behind the wheel commuting from one job to another and hit a tree. You have to budget your time as carefully as you budget your money. Don’t skimp on sleep if you can help it.

            1. Bird*

              Thank you. I hope you are no longer having to work like that, but it’s kind of helpful to know that at least someone has done it.

              Yeah, I’m pretty resigned to just continuing to be bone-tired for a while. And not doing much other than work. Which is my life now, so nothing would change except that I’d be earning money for all of those hours instead of finishing a degree that I’m ultimately not going to use.

              I’m hoping to get another work-from-home kind of position, or one where I would only need to be in the office sometimes; I’m looking at a lot of writing/editing/social media-type jobs. I honestly wish I had the time to learn some programming; I feel like that would be a viable option if I knew how to do it. Anyway, hopefully something like that will at least eliminate the transportation problem.

              I’m sorry about your coworker; I hope they ended up okay.

              1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

                Yes, I should mention she was fine. She totaled her car, but she walked away with only a few scrapes. But it really scared her. So much so that she quit one of the jobs. Please, please be careful because working all the time without any meaningful breaks can be very damaging. I am very thankful I no longer have to do that. I wish I had a secret I could share with you to make that happen for you too, but really I just came into a chunk of money from a dead relative. That’s the only reason I’m no longer in debt, and I am grateful for it every day. Good luck!

                1. Bird*

                  The (physically and psychologically) damaging part is definitely something that I worry about. But there’s no such thing as a break in graduate school, really, so I guess that’s also just…my life? And, I don’t know. It seems like there’s not really a good choice for us. Do we suffer for several years in order to hopefully make a (brighter?) future? Do we work normal hours but never make any progress, always dealing with the stress of being in bonkers levels of debt? Which is better?

                  I am so glad that you received a windfall that helped you, and that your coworker walked away from her accident.

          4. Book Lover*

            If she’s a physician with a license in your state, it should be quite easy to moonlight. Regardless of her board certification, she can do urgent care work, for example. It takes time to get credentialed at a hospital, but outpatient nonprocedural work is easy to get. She shouldn’t be completely unable to work. I once got irritated at work and had an offer by the next week – as long as whatever she gets is clearly temporary she can continue applying in her field.
            And I am not clear on what you do, but unless you are a physician she should get paid a lot more for temp work than you would for part time.

            1. Bird*

              I was trying not to get too specific, but she’s actually a veterinarian with non-clinical specialist training. The job market for vets with her specialty is looking really bad, especially since she does not also have a PhD (which is not actually necessary for the work, just a symptom of the devaluing of degrees).

              Yes, she should be getting paid way more than I am, since she is post-residency and board-certified. But right now I am working one full time job, one part time job, and finishing my PhD. My salary at the full time job is the same as hers, which is about 50% of what she should be paid right now (we are both aware that this is bonkers). That said, veterinarian salaries are significantly lower than salaries in human medicine, so the salary difference between us is not quite as wide.

              1. a scientific side hustler*

                I don’t know if you’ll come back and find this, but I highly suggest your partner looks into part time work with a scientific editing company that will value her medical knowledge rather than retail if her language skills are good. Some that I know of are Academic Journal Editors, Cactus Communciations, and Edanz Editing. If she’s a good writer and can figure out what non-native speakers were trying to say in English language articles, more or less, she can have a steady stream of work — even up to full time hours if she wants.

                The wages are low for such skilled work (you can probably average $15-25 an hour if you’re fast) and it’s a model set up to exploit young and highly trained professionals who need money, but it’s remote and flexible and would be a much better part time than retail for most people.

    2. Natalie*

      Assuming the primary source of financial stress is the student loans, I would look at hardship options (income based repayment, forbearance, etc) before I would take on two full time jobs. If you are not legally married, your income wouldn’t be taken into account. If you are married, I believe you can still exclude the spouse’s income if you file your taxes separately (although that can get complicated if you have deductions).

      1. Bird*

        We are not yet legally married, but we will need to be in order for her to be on my health insurance plan (unless she gets a job with benefits soon).

        We are unwilling to do income-based repayment again. We JUST got her loan back down to what it was before her residency; it would be money and effort wasted to take so many steps backwards.

        1. Natalie*

          Well, putting my assumptions up front: I don’t think working 2 full time jobs is an option for 99.99% of people. Even with extremely general assumptions about time, it only leaves you with about 40 hours for everything that’s not working or sleeping – eating, showering, exercise, social time, religious observance, sex, medical care, transportation, and on and on. That’s not sustainable.

          I understand you don’t want the principle of the loan to go back up, but, you know, like the song says, you can’t always get what you want. My husband has capitalized interest on his student loan, and I don’t like paying interest on the interest either. But that’s the situation we’re in.

          At this time, you have to resolve your short term problem (getting your income to cover your living expenses) before you can look at your long term problem (reducing the overall debt). Once her contract ends she should be ready to take on some kind of stopgap income source until she gets a full time job in her field.

            1. Bird*

              My current job is a work-from-home position; I’m looking at similar set-ups for other jobs. I’m not planning to do it forever, just until we get the debt under control. And again, I have a flexible schedule. I’m not sure why this situation is somehow not viable but people working 80-100 hours a week in a single job is? Clearly it sucks, but people also do it.

              Our current income covers our living expenses. My income alone covers rent and maybe food, depending on where we live. Minimum payments on her loans are as much as our rent every month. It’s not like, $360 a month, which would be a stretch but mostly doable. It’s like $1300.

              And again, she is applying to jobs every day. It seems like everyone is assuming that she’s not, that she’s just leaving me to pick up the slack.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      This is not a problem you can solve for her, nor should you be expected to do so. She needs to find some way to bring in income or you are both going to be in a really tough spot.

      I’d also look into loan forbearance or income based repayment options.

      1. Bird*

        She doesn’t expect me to solve it, but without some solution, I see no hope of building any kind of stable future.

        I can’t control what happens with her job search, so this is where we are.

        She only qualifies for income-based repayment plans. This solves nothing – we cannot make any headway on the debt if we can’t even afford the minimum payments, and so it will grow back to where it once was.

    4. August*

      Sorry about your student loan issue. I’m currently working two full-time jobs in an effort to pay off my loans as quickly as possible, and I’ve got to tell you– it’s a bad idea, and it’s not sustainable. One of my jobs is a regular 9-5 with a really accommodating boss (so he’s fine with my taking personal/medical days and working from home when needed), and the other’s in retail. I’ve been in this arrangement for about 8 months, and I’m almost certainly going to have to pare the retail job down to part-time, if not quit it entirely, because my performance at both jobs (and my general well-being) has really suffered. I knew burn out was inevitable, but I’ve always worked near-constantly and am used to long hours, so I didn’t think it would be so soon.

      I see you’ve mentioned that your partner getting retail/food service job won’t touch more than interest, but I think that’s the best route, at least until she gets a full-time job in her field. It won’t result in the kind of aggressive payment plan that you want, but it will keep her loans from becoming a full-on crisis. Obviously, you know what you can handle better than me, but it might be more prudent to have her take a retail job and keep the interest at bay until she finds full-time work, than for you to take two full-time jobs and possibly burn out (which, as the primary earner here, sounds like it would be disastrous).

      Good luck! Student loans are the absolute worst, and I’m sorry you and your partner have to deal with this.

      1. Bird*

        I am sorry that you’re in what sounds like a really similar spot. I am so, so resentful that this is our reality, and I’m really tired of not being able to make any real progress on the goals we have as a couple. I would do almost anything to make this all go away.

        1. Canadian Teapots*

          Situations like yours are why some people I know have been half-seriously considering researching countries which do not have reciprocal civil-collections agreements with the USA or Canada.

          1. Bird*

            I’m not going to lie; we have thought about it. Not necessarily to default on the loan, but because we might have a better quality of life somewhere else. Her certifications are valid most places, and she’s even applied to several positions abroad. The tricky thing would be my work eligibility. Everyone’s happy to welcome STEM folks; they are less enthusiastic about a humanities PhD.

        2. August*

          I can absolutely relate! It’s been hard to slowly realize, after looking at every available avenue to get rid of my loans, that I might die in debt no matter what I do. It’s a reality for a lot of friends I graduated with as well, and I genuinely can’t describe the rage and desperation that the entire situation generates for me.

          Something that helped me was planning. If you think you can handle two full-time jobs, try it out, but maybe try planning for some eventual end date, so you’re not just slogging through everything with no end in sight. How much income will this extra job bring in? How much income could your partner bring in on a retail job? How much job searching time would this leave her? If she finds a full-time job in X months, will quitting your second job be feasible? Also consider planning short breaks from your work ahead of time; whenever I didn’t think that I could make it through one more weekend of back-to-back shifts, I remembered that I had called off the next weekend, and all I had to do was manage until then.

          1. Bird*

            Your first paragraph is everything I feel, every day. It’s fury and desperation and despair and disillusionment and utter fatigue, but also the cold knowledge that we have to keep going anyway, because no one is going to help. Oh, and then, the indescribably negative reaction I have to platitudes about it. “It will all work out!” “God has a plan for you!” “You’re both so smart/accomplished/hardworking, no one could be a better choice for the job!” Yeah. Okay. Sure.

            Yes, I definitely cannot even imagine doing this forever. Depending on the other job, I think I could probably manage for a couple of years.

            Thank you so much for the thoughtful questions and advice; these will really help us as we look forward to the next several months.

    5. Unacademic*

      I’m sorry for the situation you and your partner are in. The long-term stress of crushing debt is so exhausting. I’m afraid I don’t have any advice about managing two full time jobs, just want to throw one other option into the ring. Since this is something you’re considering for the long term, is your field one in which you can find a single job with particularly high hours? I realize that’s probably not an option for you right now, as you’ve just gotten the job you have, but maybe it’s a direction you could steer your career towards. If you can get overtime pay, that single income will be more valuable than two separate incomes. Even if you’re exempt though, you might still find a single job with overtime less tiring than juggling two jobs. Anyway, sorry if this suggestion doesn’t work for your field. I wish you the best of luck with this.

      1. Bird*

        Your suggestion is a good one, actually. My current job has, in the past, allowed employees to work much longer hours for increased pay. It’s not an option for the moment, but it may be once I’m more firmly established.

        In any case, I’m fairly fieldless right now. My MA and (soon-to-be-completed) PhD are in a field that most would agree is totally useless outside of academia. I got my new job mostly on the strength of my work experience while in graduate school, although having advanced degrees was a requirement (it’s just that the field didn’t matter). I’m excited about the field of this job, but I don’t know that I’d stay in it forever, and a lot of my skills should transfer well once I’m ready to move on.

        And, thank you for your sympathy and well-wishes. We are both so tired of scrabbling out a living.

  145. Helena Handbasket*

    I recently accepted an offer for a role that would be a promotion for me within the same company. I’m really excited about my new team and working on something new!

    However, company policy is you can only be promoted after you complete your time in position in your current role, which for me would be another 4 months. They liked me enough to promote me early, but technically my start date would be in 4 months time.

    So now I’m bouncing back and forth between both my current and future teams, going to meetings for both of my roles. It’s getting a little awkward communicating this extended transitional period to people, especially when I am introducing myself for the first time. Is it weird to introduce myself as “I’ll be your new Teapot Analyst, but not for another few months, until then I’m still working on Teacups”? How would you handle this gray zone between positions?

    1. periwinkle*

      My whole function is going through this right now so I sympathize! Some statements of work changed a little, others changed dramatically (like mine), but in either case many of us need to transition our prior work to another person/team while also making a connection with stakeholders for our new role. We’re introducing ourselves to new stakeholders/team members with basically that same line.

      The difficult bit is extricating myself from meetings I shouldn’t still be attending, because my role on some work teams hasn’t been transitioned yet. We’re just rolling with it for now. I go to a lot of meetings already, what’s 12 more?

  147. paul*

    Someone elsewhere recommended I check into the ASAE as a possible source of job leads; the American Society of Association Executives. Does anyone have experience working with that organization good or bad?

    1. FoxyDog*

      Not directly, but in my previous job (at a nonprofit) my grand boss was a member and she went to their convention and other events. So it seems like she found it useful. I imagine it would at the very least be good for networking.

    2. NoTurnover*

      I was a member for a while and found it reasonably useful. Their publications and continuing education are good; wasn’t looking for job leads at the time.

      I worked for associations for 10 years and can recommend the field in general. It was a good mix of decent pay, great benefits, and good quality of life.

  148. Nacho*

    Great grandboss recently instituted a VERY unpopular new rule at our office. Nobody likes it, and half of us just ignore it as long as our bosses aren’t around to catch us. Morale hasn’t been great lately thanks to an upcoming reorganization that nobody’s telling us anything about, and this pretty much killed whatever was left of it.

    We work in a tiny office, and it’s not unusual to see grandboss and great grandboss in the halls or the lunch room, where they’ll usually give a polite “how’s it going” or some other greeting. Would it be inappropriate to mention how much everybody hates this new rule next time I see them in passing? Or should I just suck it up and live with it?

  149. CG*

    “Hey, ladies”/”Hey ladies”/”Hey ladies!”: Toast comments aside, how on earth do I get colleagues to stop sending work emails to me that start with that line? It feels like it has been especially bad this week. This seems to mostly come from other female peers (or female seniors!), but… we’re mid-career, y’all. None of us are in our 20s, and many of us aren’t in our 30s either. If men were doing it, it might be more gross and condescending, but it’s still infantilizing coming from women, and senior people and executives really frequently end up getting looped into or forwarded our email chains. I worry that people higher on the food chain seeing this stuff will either a) clump me with other peoples’ overly casual behavior or b) see me as junior/juvenile because of this language.

    Any thoughts? Any fixes? Anyone else slowly driven nuts by this sort of thing?

    1. DM*

      It happens where I work, too, since we have a lot of women managers. Funny you should bring it up, because I usually make a point of trying NOT to use that term when emailing a group of work women. That being said, it doesn’t bother me all that much. I see it the equivalent of using “gentlemen.” While I don’t personally mind it, it’s also not my first preference when considering greeting lines. But…it sounds better than, “Hey, women.” I tend to use “Hey, team” or “Hello all/everyone.”

      1. CG*

        I think it is just getting on my nerves more this week than it usually does. No one ever says, “hey, guys” in my office, so every email that doesn’t start with a “hey, ladies” just uses… I don’t know, NORMAL work salutations? I know it’s not a big deal, but I tend to resent (especially) work things that create a “normal”/”default” setting and then a separate “lady” setting.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yeah, I get that. You could make it kind of about you — like “I’m trying to stop using gendered greetings! Have you noticed how often we address each other with gender?” I don’t know, that might suck, but that’s my first thought.

    2. Teapot librarian*

      I like to say “Hi/hey folks” or “Hi/hey colleagues” (the “hi” or “hey” depending on context). But “ladies” is better than “girls,” which I’ve gotten before. Shudder.

    3. Sparkly Librarian*

      I too dislike the default greeting, but it doesn’t read as juvenile or casual to me (more the opposite), just unnecessarily gendered. I am a woman, but I don’t identify as a “lady” and I don’t like to be called one. “Lady” is not the counterpart to “man”. I tend to use “everyone”, “folks”, “people”, “team”, or — going over the top with some humor — something like “Glorious Providers of Teapots” in my salutation. Using just “Good morning!” without a group noun seems to work fine, too. I’m not sure you can do much to change it in other people, though (I save my ammo for different battles unless it’s an individual addressing me directly as a “lady” individual). Try and overlook it? It won’t reflect negatively on YOU if one of the bosses sees it coming from Lady Jane in Accounting.

  150. Dragon_heart*

    I am currently looking for a remote online job. It’s difficult to find openings that I can apply for since most of them require the applicant to be based in the employer’s country or be legally allowed to work in said country.

    But why this need when all their staff are spread out in the country and they can require everyone to work during their business hours?

    Also why are companies advertising their jobs on sites that are specifically for remote work then say they will only consider those who can come and work at their office in X amount of time?

    Some postings reek of a scam. One ad I came across stated that after passing their screening which includes a technical exam, the successful candidate will need to undergo 2 weeks of unpaid training. So far only 1 person applied over the past week.

  151. clow*

    mostly a rant…getting extremely tired of this super useless and super condescending jerk. We both work on the same team, in different capacities, and he is seen by everyone as being a completely worthless member of the team, he knows nothing about his own job, and nothing about anyone elses. Early this week he asked myself and another person in a different department a question, he did not like the answer and used extremely abusive language. My lead came in and gave the same response, suddenly its fine. He did “apologize” later, making excuses for why he spoke like that, and I told him I won’t tolerate that behavior. Now he is constantly asking other people if it was me that solved a particular problem or someone else…and he is asking me in the most condescending way if I have problems with my work..note, he is new to this industry and he is incompetent, I am well known in multiple departments to be reliable and really good at my job and my boss told me during my evaluation that all the feedback he has gotten about me is that I do my work to perfection. His job right now is to do nothing but communicate between departments, which he cant even do because he doesnt know half of what he is asking and he is so rude people dont want to deal with him. He only seems to talk to women rudely, not men. I seriously hate people like this so much, he makes me want to punch his face.

  152. H.C.*

    Dealing with the “get everything handled or documented before weeklong vacation”-itis!

    And I barely planned out the vacation itself besides booking the airbnb.

  153. DML*

    Just the facts. We are a tiny company, <10 total. I'm second in command. We have 3 interns, they are all paid the same rate and work the same number of hours. All three interns far exceed all of our performance expectations. Two interns have no real money issues. They have family help, scholarships, etc. The 3rd provides a lot of support to her family and money is tight. She's waiting for pay day so she can go to a discount store and buy a pair to shoes. Her shoes were ruined through no fault of her own. I'd like to give this intern $20 or so to help with the shoes (her plan is to spend <$10). The money would come from my own pocket. Is this okay?

    1. Canadian Teapots*

      I don’t know the optics on that, but to avoid any perception of favoritism, perhaps alert your interns to being able to take reasonable advances on their paychecks to cover emergency incidental expenses, and/or find a way to authorize a merit bonus payment?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah… I know your intentions are good, but it shows favoritism unless all get the same.

    3. Faintlymacabre*

      Could you talk to the number one person about giving all the interns a cash bonus for a job well done? if it’s coming from the company, maybe it could be more money, too!

    4. valentine*

      If these are her only shoes or her work shoes that now don’t conform to the dress code, you’ll be doing her a kindness and you don’t have to give the others money because they don’t need it. If someone bumped into her and her lunch fell in a puddle or she forgot her wallet and you could give or loan her money or she wouldn’t eat, you wouldn’t have to buy everyone lunch. Why would the others even have to know? Making her get a salary advance is extreme.

      1. Canadian Teapots*

        It’s a small office and from the sounds of it, DML is their boss. People talk and gossip, but especially in smaller workplaces. So what we don’t know is if giving $INTERN the twenty bucks will be rightly seen as a kindness in an emergency situation, or favoritism. Or more unfortunately, the expectation that -any- emergency will be met by cash out of DML’s pocket going forward, although that’s admittedly an extreme case and would be a sure sign that DML’s good nature is being abused.

        It’s a power imbalance thing: a co-worker floating a loan to another one doesn’t create the same perception issues and it absolutely sucks that DML has to consider these extra things, but that’s part of the whole being-in-charge-of-others thing – you have to think about longer time horizons and about effects on people other than just yourself as you go up the hierarchy.

        Quite ironic as I consider myself quite the socialist! Ideally if we paid all our workers enough (or a basic income existed) issues like this wouldn’t really arise.

        PS. I wonder if in future there could be a standard workplace contingency budget for dress-code items. Just like how industrial workplaces require steel-toed shoes and will reimburse their purchase, DML might want to consider a reimbursable purchase of items up to say, $100 not to be used more often than once every year or six months. Yes, it’s a little unusual, but considering that wearing certain clothes items can be the ‘cost of working’ at some places, I think that ought to be accounted for accordingly rather than throwing the cost entirely on the worker. Plus, that kind of small perk could help worker retention down the road.

  154. Canadian Teapots*

    Could I ask about the best way to approach a person for an informational interview through LinkedIn?

    The short of it is that while it’s in insurance and I don’t have a formal financial background, I’ve done a lot of quantitative analysis and some statistical analysis as part of my scientific work. I want to find out how that could transfer, and I would be excited to work at this company because their head office is only five minutes away from where I live. Given how commutes can be where I live, this is a huge plus.

    Or should I just hard pass because of a serious skills mismatch and not annoy people? (all that said, any tips for II’s through LinkedIn would still be appreciated for down the road!)

  155. Amanda C*

    Today I scheduled a “coffee chat” interview next week. The info I was sent has a section regarding attire, where they say that the company is casual and I should wear something that makes me feel professional and comfortable. I always always wear suits to interviews, but since this is a tech company in a very casual area of the US, I’m afraid it will make me look out of touch. Would black dress pants and a nice top still be a little too formal?

    1. bluelyon*

      It sounds like it might be. Do you have dark jeans you could wear with the top and a blazer?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Personally, I don’t think one could ever go wrong in life if they wore black dress pants and a nice top.
      I often don’t wear a full suit to interviews anymore. Sometimes because it’s too hot and sometimes I just feel it can be over dressed. A tailored blouse should be fine, but I’d opt for a somewhat dressier fabric.

  156. Temperance*

    Does anyone have experience with declining to take on an unpaid intern? We’re interviewing someone next week who I frankly don’t think will be a good fit or has the qualifications to really jump in to our program, but I’m not sure how to say it. His cover letter was full of grammatical errors, and his resume was kind of a mess. We also spoke on the phone, and he was shockingly informal and was not what I would call well-spoken.

    (The intern in question needs to complete an internship for a graduate program, and he has no experience working in an office, and the first item on his resume is that he played on his school’s football team and is now an assistant coach.)

    1. zora*

      Just say “your experience is not a good fit for what we need. Thank you and best of luck with your program.”

      Don’t overthink it, it’s the same you would say to decline an entry level employee.

    2. Canadian Teapots*

      I’d be careful about using the words “well-spoken”. There was a discussion here on AAM that centered around a white person using that in context with a black interviewee, and it got around somehow and triggered an EEOC lawsuit.

      I would instead briefly say, “Unfortunately, I can’t in good conscience agree to hire you on the basis of what I see here. You are going to seriously limit yourself in future prospects unless you (a) clean up your cover letter and resume to basic professional standards, and (b) speak more formally on the telephone and/or in person at any interview.”

      If they push further, refer them to AAM’s resume and cover letter guidelines (or if you worry that might unintentionally reveal you, google “Ask a manager resume sample” and click through till you find a writeup from Alison on USNews. Send the intern that URL if you feel so disposed.

      1. Marcel*

        I remember that letter. It’s one of the ones I think about all the time as I remember, the interviewee called the interviewer ‘dog’ and used other slang and it was a communications job. Alison had to apologize to the letter writer because a bunch of the comments were telling him (a gay black man from the south) that he had never experienced racism and bigotry and a good chunk of the thread was white people explaining racism to him. I wish there was an update, I really want to know how it turned out.

        1. Marie B.*

          What? I don’t remember that letter. I have never known the people here to act that way. Do you have a link?

        2. valentine*

          I didn’t understand not hiring him because he was personable in his interview. He didn’t use slang; he used African American English (AAE, formerly mistakenly called AAVE, eg Vernacular).

        3. Troutwaxer*

          I remember reading the posts and spending an hour or two trying to figure out why things were getting ugly. I eventually figured out that an important distinction was not being made, that being the difference between the OP’s “personal experience of discrimination” VS. “the legal definition of ‘discrimination’ in employment law” (which the OP’s organization might soon be dealing with in court.) However, none of the people trying to discuss that made the distinction between the two different issues very clear. I didn’t see it as “white ugliness” or anything like that, so much as an unintentional failure of communication that was very difficult for the OP.

          It sort of ran like this:

          OP: But I know the person I’m writing about didn’t discriminate. (Writing from his personal experience of discrimination.)

          COMMENT: But “well spoken” is a discriminatory phrase (Writing from knowledge of case law about discrimination.)

          OP: What do you mean? I’m black. I know her and she’s not prejudiced… (Writing from personal knowledge of discrimination.)

          And the discussion just went on and on and on like that. By the time I had the distinction between the two forms of discrimination clear in my own head and was ready to post about the issue, Allison had shut down the comments. It was probably the right move on Allison’s part, but I was really looking forward to saving the day!

      2. Temperance*

        Thank you for this comment! You’re absolutely right. I couldn’t think of a better phrase to use. I was shocked by his grammar and level of formality.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You can do the same sort of rejection that you would for a paid position! No special wording necessary. Just “we’re not able to offer you a position, best of luck, etc.”

      1. Marcel*

        +1 to this.

        Alison, was there ever an update to letter that Canadian Teapots mentioned above? I think about that letter all the time.

          1. Marcel*

            I only see a link to the original letter, not an update.

            (Also, I had forgotten how upsetting it was and I apologize for dredging up the past in my comment above)

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Oh sorry, I missed that you were asking for an update! The OP did send in an update but I talked with him and he understands I’m not publishing it so as not to re-open the shit-show that happened on the original post. He sounds like he’s doing well.

              1. Short & Dumpy*

                Thanks for letting us know he’s doing well even if you can’t publish a full update. I think a lot of us worried about him!

        2. JamieS*

          Was that the one Alison said she wasn’t going to publish an update because the original letter had a bunch of people explaining racism to a black OP? I think she called it whitesplaining.

  157. Revolution*

    Is it ever ethical to use someone as a reference if you used to date them? After my coworker left her job, she said she and her boss began dating. It didn’t work out in the end, but she says she still uses him as a reference for jobs. Would that ever be ethical on either of their parts, or am I overthinking it and it’s not a big deal?

    1. Pollygrammer*

      A reference is strictly about vouching for your work; he can give her the most exaggeratedly glowing reference possible, but it’ll still be no more biased than many other references out there.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Hmmm, that’s not quite right! A reference is about providing a nuanced viewpoint on your work, not just about saying positive things — or at least that’s what it’s supposed to be (and what the most helpful and credible references are). So yes, someone you used to date is assumed to have bias. That’s why you can’t use a spouse, parent, etc.

  158. Momma Bear*

    LIVID and just want to vent.
    My daughter got accepted into a pretty prestigious summer internship in another state, YAY!
    Her acceptance letter said further info would be sent within 2 weeks. 15 days later, she emailed. Internship coordinator sent her a list of apartment complexes that do summer rentals, details on the dress code, hours, etc. and the email said
    “You must sign and return the attached contract by March 31 or your spot will be given to someone on our standby list. You must also show proof that you’ve arranged housing for (the dates of the internship) when you return your signed contract.”
    Only…the contract wasn’t attached to the email. My daughter immediately replied, asking for it, and has called or emailed daily since then asking for it.
    She arranged for housing and submitted that proof.
    And today the internship coordinator told her the position had gone to a standby because she hadn’t returned the contract. It’s too late and there is “nothing they can do.”
    IT IS NOT EVEN PAST THE DEADLINE. My dd never got the contract, and has been asking for it for weeks. Internship coordinator’s boss says that dd should not have signed a lease without a signed internship contract. But the program requires they both be turned in at the same time!?!?
    So now my daughter is stuck with a 4 month lease in another state. No job there. No internship.
    I won’t do it, because I know better, but for the first time in the 8 years since I’ve had adult kids, I SOOOOOO want to go rip someone’s head off on my daughter’s behalf.
    To make this more work related, if you were this internship coordinator’s boss, how would you handle this screwup?

    1. Helena Handbasket*

      Did they not respond to her daily emails/calls at all, and only contact her again to tell her that her spot was gone?

    2. Teapot librarian*

      Boss is saying that it’s DD’s fault for signing the lease, so that means that Boss knows that the coordinator gave DD’s spot away before the deadline? It sounds like Boss isn’t going to do anything to handle the screwup and your daughter should go up another level in the organization’s hierarchy. I’d like to think that the correct response is to let your daughter keep her spot, expand the program by one (so that the standby person keeps the position as well), do some sort of performance improvement with the coordinator, and make sure that this didn’t happen to any other interns. Then next year the contract should be sent with the acceptance letter. And something should change with regard to the housing arrangement piece, but I’m not sure what.

    3. Canadian Teapots*

      I can’t help but feel like your daughter got purposely sandbagged by someone over there. Not attaching the contract, and refusing to send it even after multiple requests? Something’s not right. :|

      I’m really sorry to hear she’s going to be out the $ on a lease which will be of no use to her.

      Were I the boss and I found out about this? Heads would roll. Nobody who met the internship qualifications should be treated so shabbily and in a way that causes enormous financial hardship.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I personally would take this up the chain (or coach my daughter to do this) at whatever company or organization this is. Blow up the twitter account if needed. That the IC’s Boss is saying that daughter should have disregarded their own rules because they failed to send the contract when repeatedly asked to? What? That makes no sense. The IC and the IC’s Boss failed big time and it should be publicized as far as needed to get the situation rectified. Reimbursement for the lease for a start, since it was obtained on the expectation that the promised contract would be sent any day now AND having the lease in hand was a prerequisite for them accepting the signed contract.

      The IC’s boss should have a) apologized profusely, b) recognized the calendar date and the difference between today’s date and their deadline, and c) emailed the contract ASAP. Seems pretty easy, can’t believe they’d rather take the route they did. It’s not being a Momma Bear to have your daughter call them on this BS.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I would also be interested in following the money on this one. IF that landlord has any sort of a relationship- business or personal with these people, it might/might not be worth exploring. I would be wondering how many rental units were filled by people who cannot use them.

        While I do understand that not everything that goes wrong is a scam, I also think that asking well-framed questions of the right people is a good habit.

        When stuff gets weird, follow the money and see what is up.

  159. Anxa*

    Does anyone have any tips on embracing a more professional look?

    I work in a casual environment with very little room for advancment, so it’s not a think now, but I know I have a style that’s far too casual for many positions. I don’t mind dressing up more (although that’s harder and harder every year as I hate going shopping these days. Women’s fashion is a minefield for me), but I have a hard time looking polished.

    My natural hair doesn’t look professional, but I don’t think the more polished versions are flattering. I have fine hair with a slight yet persistent wave (hair stylists are shocked that they can’t override it sometimes). So it looks “messy” and undone unless I straighten, blowdry, or curl it. I have eczema and a waxy scalp, so I don’t like to do this. It’s dirty blonde and product makes it look limp, wet, or greasy. Plus then I have to adjust my washing routine, which took almost a decade to get in a sweet spot.

    I feel so much more me and pretty and confident when my hair is kind of messy and wavy. It gives me some volume and balances my face. How do you get used to overriding vanity for professionalism?

    1. NaoNao*

      Hmm. Any chance you might consider going short with it? Shorter “lobs” or even bobs and pixies often look much more intentional when wavy or wispy/sectioned/piecey than longer hair.

      Another option might be strategic bobby pins, hair bands, or clips?

      Final option: crank up the overall look. Get a capsule wardrobe of perfectly fitting, sharp, modern looking suiting to mix and match with more casual pieces. Get the makeup on point or more polished (so if you don’t wear any, consider adding some. If you only do lip stain, add a light eyeshadow and so on). Consider investing in what I call “Serious Jewelry” meaning no dainty chains with charms or fabric bracelets—stuff you would see in a department store or above only!

      This way, if your hair is slightly underdone, your overall presentation is more polished.

      1. Anxa*

        I did up going for a haircut with some birthday money. I had been braiding it back most days. It did take reduce some of the frizziness, but didn’t make it magically straight or curly. I didn’t do a pixie though. I have very full cheeks and no cheekbones and I just didn’t think it was the look for me. I thought about it…a lot…, as my boyfriend has short hair and his hair is dry in less than an hour, is styled in under a minute, and looks absolutely fine as is. But then again, his is straighter.

        The capsule wardrobe thing I think will be harder. I really loathe most women’s fashion right now. I detest exposed ankles and feet, and many of my old favorite brands only had one or two options for full length pants now. I would love to find some ‘classy’ twill or chino pants. I’m not in a suiting level job, and even business casual pants are something I wouldn’t want to wear everyday, if only because I want to give my dress shoes a break (and my skin…synthetics are very irritating for me and if I wear polyester, etc. too many days in a row I may bleed a little). I think I just have to get used to the idea that shopping is now something I have to spent time and money on and is part of my professional career development. I think I have been living with my SO too long, who manages to build a work uniform pretty effortlessly.

        I already wear eyeshadow. I’m still looking for a mascara to replace my Neutrogena Last Tint.

    2. Casuan*

      If you’re well mannered, well groomed, & wearing clothes that are appropriate for your business then let your professionalism speak for itself.

      re grooming:
      -Only wear as much cosmetics that make you comfortable. This might be only mascara & lipstick or even just lipstick. There are many lip tints out there that give polish without looking overdone; I like Burt’s Bees.
      -If you don’t like to use nail polish, buff them! Buffing makes even short nails look so much better, IMHO. I like polish although I don’t like dealing with chips, so buffing suits me very well.
      -Your preferred hair style doesn’t seem like it should be an issue unless you’re understating it to us.

      re clothes:
      -As NaoNao suggested, invest in a few capsule clothes: look for well-cut pieces that suit you & as high quality items as you can afford.
      nb: high quality does not equal high price or designer label; it means decent fabric that doesn’t show every grain of dust, the seams are even, & a good cut

      As for jewellery, you don’t want others to be preoccupied by wondering if those dangly earrings are heavy that they don’t listen to you.

      Something I do with cosmetics, accessories, & clothes:
      When shopping, I always try a colour or item that I don’t particularly like. Sometimes I’m quite surprised that it really suits me & Ive been able to expand my personal style.

      What I’ve learnt for myself is that when I’m confident I’m more professional. Appearance-wise, I’m confident when I’m not wondering if my blush is even or if there’s lipstick on my teeth, or if a hair is out of place, or when my heels will cause me to trip…
      Try to have fun with finding a style that works for you! It’s even more fun with a friend.
      :-D

      1. Anxa*

        I have GC for a beauty store so I’ll be getting some BB lip tint this weekend. Lipsticks are iffy on me (I get a line of build up no matter how much water I drink or lip conditioning I do) and the matte craze is making it even harder.

    3. nonymous*

      How does your scalp respond to velcro rollers using a wet to dry set? No chemicals needed, you just stick the rollers in when hair is mostly dry and hang out while it dries fully. If you are impatient and think your scalp can handle it, hair drier on the no heat setting will speed up drying. Rag curlers or foam rollers are another option. The wet-to-dry set might add enough additional body to make your waves look intentional.

      That and regular use of a boar bristle brush (transfers oils from the root region to the rest of the hair shaft) are my tips for fine hair and minimal chemicals. Also + on the bob if you prefer volume to a sleek appearance. Try juuuust hitting the shoulders if a short bob doesn’t work for you.

      1. Anxa*

        I never tried those before seriously, as I’ve had a few mishaps with tangles early on. I guess maybe I just need to practice more. I suppose if I don’t want to chop my hair off I have to put the effort into learning how to manage it better. I guess I just gave up too easily.

        Boar bristle brush was a disaster, I looked so greasy the week I tried that I wet my hair in the sink at school so it would just look wet instead.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I go the opposite way with this one.
      What is at your core? Suppose, by magic tomorrow all these problems were resolved. Do you actually want a “suit and desk” type job?
      I am asking this because although my reasons are different and my needs are different I have concerns about my appearance. Well, I had concerns, now that I am pushing 60 I stopped caring so much. However, my point is I realized even if I fixed x, y and z problems I would still probably not be happy tied to a desk in a two piece suit. It’s just not me, it’s not who I am at my core.
      My suggestion check what is at the core of your desires. What type of work environment do you prefer, where do you flourish?

      I do have a desk job now but my boss does not care that I need to wear sneaks on my big fat feet. She does not care if I show up in jeans on a slow day. Am chuckling. At one point she said, “I don’t care what is on your feet. You are here and that is the important part.” She has never once told me to beef up my style. For my part, I have asked her on occasion, “For this event, what will we be wearing?” This is so we can show up with the same level of dressiness -if she’s in corduroys then I am wearing something similar. She wears black pants, then I dig out my black pants. I can live with this.

      2. Canadian Teapots*

        Good question and food for thought. You mind if I refer back to this next week’s open thread?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Go for it, I think it’s kind of a fun topic. Sometimes we are round pegs trying to fit in square holes and we wonder why that isn’t working well for us. Then we find things out about ourselves and it starts to make more sense.

      3. Anxa*

        Ooh,

        I suppose at my core I really hate shopping and beauty prep, and would like to be in a job where I could spend that time slacking off or researching or reading or sleeping or learning non-beauty skills. But I also wouldn’t want to close too many doors over that.

  160. AnnonnForThis*

    Hi all,
    I’m really scared. Should I give the police a statement?
    I’m an independent contractor and at my job a few days ago a client of the business owner accused me of pushing her. While the client was expressing herself, she got in my face and repeatedly assaulted me (legal definition not dictionary definition – she made motions to push me). During this interaction I apologized repeatedly even though I did not actually push her just to end the interaction. It didn’t work and just made the client madder. Eventually she wound down and accepted my apology. Business owner was standing next to me the whole time and didn’t manage to intervene (she tried to interject twice and client just talked over her, honestly we were both really shocked – this has never happened before).
    Now client has informed business owner that client is seeking legal advice and filing a police report.
    Business owner wants me to sit tight and not do anything. Friend says I should give the police a statement proactively because I should get it on the record ASAP.
    What should I do?

    1. fposte*

      Friend is sooooooooo wrong. Do *not* talk to the police. Odds are that nobody’s actually calling them anyway, but if you want to talk to anybody, it’s a lawyer. If the police *do* want to talk to you, you really should talk to a lawyer before you do that.

      A lot of lawyers in my area will give you a free phone consult, so I’d check around to see if that’s true where you are. My guess is they will tell you they doubt that you’ll hear about this again, but at least this way you’ll be ready.

      (BTW, legal definition of assault varies by jurisdiction–this wouldn’t meet the standard everywhere.)

      1. AnnonnForThis*

        That’s what I thought! I’m preparing a statement just so I know what I’m going to say in case I do need to talk to the police.

        Friend said their friend A was in an altercation with a roommate B before. B apparently filed a police report and A was arrested (not on day altercation happened). Charges were eventually dropped/A was found not guilty – can’t remember story – but it was super stressful. A’s lawyer told A, anytime that you are in an altercation and the other party wants to file a police report, you need to give the police your statement ASAP so it’s on record, otherwise you risk getting arrested. So now I’m scared of getting arrested and I’m scared of not giving the police my statement since the client apparently already has.

        1. fposte*

          I really wouldn’t take the word of the friend of a friend’s reported lawyer. Talk to a lawyer yourself.

          (Do you really know that the client has gone to the cops? Is it possible she’s just saying she will or has?)

          1. AnnonnForThis*

            She asked the business owner for my personal info for her police report, and business owner declined to give out the info and said she’d be happy to cooperate with the police. Client said she’ll let the police handle it.

            1. fposte*

              So that means a large chance that the client is blowing smoke. She’s doing all the broad gestures of threat that people do instead of taking action. (This reminds me of the guy who wanted me to contact his lawyer so he could sue me. Like, dude, I’m not going to do your legwork to sue myself.) People who really want to report you to the police start by, you know, reporting you to the police.

              So take a breath, look up some lawyers and give a couple a call, but consider the possibility that she is doing this to scare you and make you feel bad.

              1. AnnonnForThis*

                Thank you. This is the first time the business owner’s dealt with a situation like this too and she’s also learning as she goes. She already has a lawyer on retainer and she’s not the one who’s actually involved (because accused of assault) so while this sucks for her it’s extra sucky for me.

                I kind of regret not calling the police after the client left because I was really shaken and she threatened me repeatedly while make shoving motions at me. Too late now, though.

    2. AnnonnForThis*

      UPDATE: I talked to a cop friend (different jurisdiction so there’s no chance he’d be involved) and he said same as business owner, hold tight and no need to proactively contact the police. He also said there’s no way I’d be arrested just on a police report based on what I told him.

      Thanks fposte! Between the two of you I feel so much better.

      1. Woodswoman*

        I’m sorry you’re in this awful situation. It sounds like a lot of bluffing, and I hope that’s the case.

        But if it’s for real, I’m reiterating what others have said–if you are contacted by actual police, you do NOT talk to them. You get an attorney, and the attorney talks to the police. Friends or acquaintances are not authorities on how you should respond.

        For your own protection, in a situation like this where you are being accursed of a crime, once police contact you, this is the ONLY thing you say. Talk to my attorney. Talk to my attorney. Talk to my attorney. And mean it.

    3. Kathenus*

      I agree with everyone, and your update, about not proactively giving a statement. I would strongly recommend though that you and the business owner write down your full accounts of what happened now, and file them away, so they are done as close to the incident as possible. The ‘extemporaneous’ notes often referenced in the James Comey firing can carry more weight than those written well after the fact. Good luck!

  161. Serious Pillowfight*

    I have really bungled things up with a work situation, through my own fault. Every step of the way, I have made a misstep and now I feel like I’m too far in to fix it. Would love some advice.

    So a coworker and I work the same evening shift. A day shift doing the same thing but with different products recently opened up, and turns out we both applied. For some reason it never occurred to me he would apply, so I was pretty open about the fact that I had. (Misstep #1: Here’s an idea, be discreet about applying for an internal position in case one of your coworkers applied as well so awkwardness doesn’t ensue.)

    Then he made an innocent comment indicating he had also applied and knew I had. I immediately felt guilty for possibly standing in his way because he has kids and I don’t, and the hours have been really hard on him. He said nothing to guilt me, this is me guilting myself. (Misstep #2: I’m not doing the parent vs. non-parent battle any favors by “trying to be nice” and putting pressure on myself to yield to a parent’s needs. But I’m human and I am sensitive to kids and families in general.)

    The bosses and we agreed he and I could “share” the new job by switching shifts month to month. I liked this idea because I appreciate a varied schedule and the fact that my workplace is willing to do something unconventional like this. Bosses liked the idea of keeping both of us, not having to choose one over the other, and having more bodies trained on designing more products.

    Turns out, coworker can’t really swing the monthly swap thing because he’d end up paying for daycare on months when he doesn’t need to, i.e. when he’s working our current evening shift and I’m the one on days. As parents probably know, you can’t just pull your kids out of daycare for a month at a time because you’d lose the spot.

    There’s a different schedule he and I could work where we’d alternate 3 nights, 2 days per week for a month, then swap to 3 days, 2 nights instead of the month blocks. He’s cool with that because it would mean fewer “wasted” daycare funds where he’s home during the day but has to send the kids to daycare anyway. We aren’t sure if bosses will go for that as they indicated they preferred the simpler month on, month off schedule. So I know our first step is clearing that with them.

    My issue (Misstep #3: making someone else’s problem mine) is that I will feel super guilty if he has to give up this job and stay on evenings because of having to share it with me. I think I’m going to just withdraw and give the job to him if that happens. My reason for wanting to move to days was also family-related (my husband recently went from working evenings to working days, and I would also like to see my father and friends who work normal day jobs), but I feel like since I don’t have kids, the stakes are lower for me. (Misstep #4: thinking my needs are less important because I’m childless.)

    As an aside, I found out this coworker makes about 10% more than I do despite the fact that we do the SAME EXACT JOB, which bugs me and makes me think the company values him more. There are potentially justifiable reasons involving him being slightly older and having slightly more past experience, but I’m still annoyed. Us having to share the job also weakens my ability to ask for a raise.

    Anyway. I haven’t promised him anything, but I told him to let the bosses know his situation and to come talk to me first if they say they can’t do the schedule that would work better for him. All of the cliche sayings about “no good deed” and “the road to hell” and “trying to please everyone and pleasing no one” feel eerily applicable here. He also has shown zero appreciation for the effort I’m putting in to make this work for both of us, which I know can be explained by the fact that he didn’t ask me to do any of this. Am I an idiot?

    If you read this far, thank you.

    1. Susan K*

      No, you are not an idiot! You are a really kind and thoughtful person, to care this much about your coworker’s needs. But I also think you have hit the nail on the head about your missteps, and you should listen to your own instincts. It is not your problem to solve — it’s between your coworker and the managers. You can certainly help by agreeing to some sort of compromise (as you have already done) if it works for you, but your needs are important, too.

    2. Reba*

      Wow. Not an idiot. I do pretty much agree with your assessment of the missteps here, though, with one exception: I think your bosses are the goofs for “not wanting to choose between you” and letting you sort it out for yourselves. I hope he does go talk to them about his situation and they come up with something reasonable–it’s great to be flexible with your employees but that shouldn’t become a reason to actually just complicate everyone’s lives more.

      I do NOT think you should give up the job to him if it’s offered. You are not “standing in his way” — it’s not _his_ way, ok? It’s just as much yours.

      Childcare is really hard and expensive, worthy of sympathy, but it has no bearing on your career plans right now.

      Let us know how it goes?

    3. Uncivil Engineer*

      Having a family does not make your coworker more deserving of the daytime shift than you are. It’s nice that you want to try to work it out so you both can benefit but, if it comes down to you or him, you should not just give it to him.

      1. Canadian Teapots*

        I would agree, especially as he’s already making 10% more and it’s very likely verging on EEOC territory as to why that’s happening.

    4. Temperance*

      I’m not going to call you an idiot, but I am going to encourage you to stop trying to make his life easier at your own expense!

      Your family is just as important as his. If I was your husband, I’d be frankly peeved if you had the opportunity to switch to day shifts and you could spend time with me but you gave them up.

    5. Serious Pillowfight*

      Thank you, everyone.

      UPDATE: I came to work tonight and learned coworker was unable to swing the daycare changes he needed to be able to take the job right now. He said it was all mine. I was tempted at first to ask if he was unable to take the job AT ALL, or because he would have to share it with me. Then I decided I was done being a martyr, and that I had dropped many hints along the way that I would consider stepping aside for him, and he didn’t ask me to do that. So I left it alone. I’m excited about starting my new job!

      2. nonymous*

        Sounds like your coworker is a decent person too. I have had many coworkers who would have asked for you to step aside without the “dropped hints”.

        Congrats!!

      3. Woodswoman*

        Great news! Once you’re settled in your new position, that seems like a good time to inquire with your manager about why your peer is making 10% more than you are for the same job. Perhaps there is a legitimate reason–being on the job longer and getting annual increases, holding a special certification that puts him on a higher pay scale, etc. I don’t know your gender but if you are female and your gender is the only difference between you and your co-worker, it’s illegal for your company to pay you less than he’s making.

  162. SciDiver*

    I’ve run into a slightly sticky situation at work about benefits and I’m looking for a way to talk to my boss about it.

    I’ve been hired as temporary staff at a university, and the job was posted as hourly with benefits. During the interview my boss indicated that the only benefits would be health care, since my contract is only 1 year and sick time doesn’t kick in until after 1 year of working there. Offer letter reflects this information. I took the job, I started 2 weeks ago, and now have found out that I’m not actually eligible for health care through the university–I have to undergo a 1 year waiting period from October to October to verify I’m working at least 30 hours a week, but I won’t be working there by the time the waiting period is over (job runs March 2018-March 2019, measure period is October 2018-October 2019, for coverage beginning January 2020) :/

    I’m sorting out buying insurance through the state exchange and using my new job and move to New State as a qualifying event to enroll out of the enrollment period. My problem is: how do I address this with my boss?? I’m almost certain he genuinely didn’t know that I wouldn’t be eligible, and I’m not angry with him–I just want to make sure future year-long contract staff like me know upfront that there are actually NO benefits at all. Benefits were a part of my consideration, and even just employer-sponsored health care would have made a significant difference since the pay is fairly low. One co-worker knows the situation and told me my boss would want to know about this, but I don’t know how to bring it up. Cherry on top is that my boss is out of the country until July, and I’ll be away on assignment until August, so no face-to-face is possible before then. Thoughts?

    1. Reba*

      Wow. I’d find that demoralizing. I’d really look into going higher and making a stink to try to get your workplace to deal with this–it was in your offer, part of your compensation, and part of why you accepted, right? Even if Boss did it unintentionally, this is a serious bait and switch. You might not be angry at your boss, but I am! They should have known about this.

      You of course can make the call of how much effort is warranted and/or how conciliatory you want to be, before you accept that your pay is effectively much less. But for me this is a message to the boss that is not just a heads up, FYI Boss, but like, how can you help me fix this!

      I would write something like, “Hi Boss, I spoke to the benefits office and they informed me there is actually a 1-year waiting period for health care benefits that effectively means I will not be able to access this part of my compensation while I am working here. I know we talked about this during interviews and it’s in my offer letter (just checked). I’m sort of at a loss here since these benefits were part of my calculations when I accepted the job. Can we get on the phone and talk about this soon?”

      In your conversation maybe other solutions will come up. Since the job is only one year (and it sounds like it’s a regular thing) maybe there is a way for an exception to be made to the waiting policy? (That sounds kind of bananas BTW.)

      Good luck!

      1. SciDiver*

        Benefits were definitely part of my calculus in taking the job, but if I’m honest with myself, I probably would have taken it anyway (this is my first real job since graduating college). The big reason I’m not super angry over this is that based on my earnings, I’m eligible through the state for subsidies, which comes out to just about what I would have paid out through the university plan.

        You’re absolutely right though about this being a bait and switch, and it makes me think about taking this higher up–not because my boss messed up, but because the HR office for our department ought to know as well that he’s been advertising positions with benefits when there are none.

    2. nonymous*

      If your offer letter has the insurance benefits included, I’d push back. It may be that someone can find money from an unfilled position. Even if they don’t end up paying the full cost of insurance, it can’t hurt to ask for an adjustment to cover the extra cost you’re incurring.

  163. Delphine*

    It took me two days to build up the courage to ask my boss for something as simple as a card to our gym. And then when I finally forced myself to go into his office I spoke too fast and he didn’t hear the first time, so I had to repeat myself and my brain has decided to be silly and obsess about that and whether my boss thought it was odd/thinks I’m odd. SIGH.

    How I wish there was a cure for whatever this is…some mix of depression and anxiety that told my brain to make asking my boss a question a thing to worry about.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Sounds like social anxiety. Are you seeing a therapist? I work with one on mine and it really helps.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I’d say that you went and asked anyway in spite of your concerns. You won this one. It’s when our concerns successfully hold us back that is the most worrisome.

      I’d also argue that at LEAST 50% of that hesitation is normal. Most people hesitate before asking the boss something. Personally, I have taken longer than two days to figure out what to do and when to do it and how to do it. This stuff is not in our genes at birth, but it ought to be.

      So let’s pretend for a moment that your boss thinks you are odd. He doesn’t actually, so we are pretending. Now, what’s next? Nothing. Nothing is next. People think others are odd all the time. It’s pretty normal for people to say, “oh how odd.” In most cases, “odd” means “That is nothing *I* would think of being interested in.”

      Looking at what you have here, the only very small thing I would say is next time make sure you have his attention before you start to talk. This looks like: “Boss, got a sec?” He might be one of those people who uses a laser sharp focus on his work so he may actually not hear people the first time they speak.

      If you want, wait a few weeks and go back and tell him something about the gym. “Hey, I am sure enjoying our gym, thanks for getting that card for me.” One sentence like this can provide enough surrounding context that the original setting can begin to feel normal rather than odd.

      Last. Remember without fear/hesitation/concern the concept of bravery does not exist. Bravery is what we do IN SPITE of our fear/hesitation/concern. Kind of reminds me, that every day, everyone I meet is doing something that is a show of bravery in some way.

  164. Eternal External Candidate*

    Feeling a bit gloomy this week. I’ve been chafing to get out of my current job and I was referred to a super promising position at a GREAT place to work in my field (think subset of higher ed), had some conversations with the director there who seemed like she was very interested in me, this would be an amazing career jump for me, etc.. Then this week I learned that there is a temp person in that office already who is gunning to be hired on permanently – her original contract was already supposed to end in November so she’s already obviously been kept on way longer than expected which means they like her… I’ve already seen how this internal candidate game goes in higher ed job searches previously. Am I forever doomed to be the great external candidate? Sigh.

  165. Joan*

    Any suggestions for women’s business casual shoes on the sturdier side? I take the bus and walk a few blocks on my commute, and I’ve been wearing through ankle boots and loafers (the styles I prefer) at an annoyingly fast pace. I know I could wear tennis shoes and change at my cubicle (and I did this with snow boots for a while this winter), but this seems less than ideal.

    1. Blue Anne*

      Clarks. Their shoes hold up to that type of commute really well, look great and are comfortable.

    2. Reba*

      My Clarks and particularly my Gentle Souls have been very durable!

      Dunno what exactly is coming apart with your shoes, but take a look at what parts of the construction are failing first. Could regular resoling/reheeling, conditioning and leather care, before they cross the rubicon help them last longer? Alternatively look for harder heels if yours are rubber, leather soles rather than plastic that cracks, etc.

    5. Short & Dumpy*

      I was going to say Clarks too. Merrells used to be fantastic, but their quality has really taken a dive the last couple years so can be hit & miss.

      You might want to check out Ariats. Their paddock boots last forever (even when I”m actually really using them at the stable & they are constantly getting wet/muddy) but I’ve bought a couple pairs of their mules that also held up well. It can be hard to find them in styles that work for business casual (as opposed to sparkly rhinestone cowgirl) but it might be worth a look if Clarks are too wide for you.

    6. Not That Jane*

      I use Skechers. They have some pretty decent-looking flats. The only thing is for me personally, given the way I walk, they wear unevenly and get unstable, so I wouldn’t want to walk long distances in them. But YMMV.

    7. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      I haven’t done it personally but I have read if you have a shoe (like your ankle boots or loafers) you really like, you can have a cobbler add an additional sole onto them for a reasonable price and they will last much longer. Assuming your shoes are wearing out on the bottom…

  166. Lorna D*

    How do you deal with a co-worker that will steamroll you up until the point that you’re objectively rude? I’ve had issues with a coworker where if I need to tell them to stop doing something (please stop taking things off my desk without asking, please stop saying “excuse me” like you’re trying to get by me during our standup but then stand in the spot I was just in but moved out because I thought you were trying to get through, please stop interrupting me in meetings and talking over me constantly etc). I’ve brought it up to them directly, and very clearly but politely and they’ll just ignore me. So I’ll go up a little and go “okay I know I’ve talked to you about this before. I really need you to stop X, it’s disrespectful and it can’t continue”. And they keep going. And I’ll ramp it up a level or two from them, before I’m finally like “*coworker’s name*, you are being intentionally childish and difficult. I need you to stop this. NOW.” And they’ll look at me like I’ve slapped them out of nowhere and they just can’t believe I got so upset! Like I haven’t tried multiple times to talk to them about this, stating clearly the problem and that I need it to stop.

    Boss is grandboss, boss is CEO. Boss isn’t helping because coworker is a relic and a salesperson who brings in money. Thoughts?

    1. Pollygrammer*

      Let them interrupt. When you can get a word in edgewise, calmly say something like “let me know when I can talk again.”

      Drop the pleases wherever you can. Next time they take something from your desk, ask them “do you remember that I told you not to take things off my desk without asking? Is there a reason you keep doing it?” If they give an excuse: “I don’t feel like that’s a good enough reason when I’ve repeatedly asked you to stop.”

      When they act like they’re trying to get by, pivot and give the polite “go ahead” arm gesture, but don’t move your feet.

      Your coworker is an ass, and your boss is failing at their job.

    2. BRR*

      When I’ve tried all my polite but firm aam methods with pain coworkers and get nowhere I’ve honestly just stopped carrying. I’ll still be professional but I realized I was spending way too much time dealing with someone who wasn’t extending me any custosy back. I’d let him act offended.

      I would also try phrasing follow ups as questions. Make them say why they continue to do x after you’ve asked them to stop. They might listen if it comes from them. Bring them to your conclusion.

    3. Casuan*

      What you’re doing isn’t working so change what you’re doing. Often passive-agressive doesn’t work at all with people like this. It sounds like your assertiveness is nothing more than an amusing challenge for him. Don’t play into or otherwise feed that.

      Does he do this with everyone or just with you?
      If everyone, is anyone successful in getting through to him?

      Stand your ground [figuratively & literally].

      Be okay with pauses & silences. If you ask a question & there’s no reply, wait more bests than you normally would then say his name & repeat the question. If he still ignores you then do back to your regular scheduled life.

      Tailor your speech patterns & mannerisms to his because that’s probably what he understands.

      In meetings, when he interrupts you can interrupt him back, by [slightly louder] saying “Rudy, stop. I wasn’t finished.”
      If he interrupts others, stand up for them using the same wording. A visual can help get his attention, like raising a pen slightly or tapping some papers [like you’ve picked up some papers & need them to be even for a paper clip, if that makes sense]— make the gesture seem natural.

      If that doesn’t work or isn’t feasible, then when he finishes then finish what you need to say. After, tell him that he always interrupts & ask him what you can do or say to make him aware of & to stop this behaviour.

      Call his bluff when you can. If Rudy [get it? Rude-y] says “excuse me” then ask if he needs through. Your tone matters if there are others around because you don’t want to be thought of as rude.

      Most importantly, keep in mind that this isn’t you. Rudy is the one being rude & causing conflict. You’re simply tailoring your responses into actions & languages that he understands.
      There’s a learning curve to this, so give yourself time to get used to standing your ground. It gets easier after the first few times & it can do wonders for your self-esteem!!

  167. T3k*

    This might be too late to ask about here, but this month my contract ended and was told it wasn’t anything to do with my work, just that whoever set up the position that way made them more like “6 month revolving door” positions. However, I know the person who originally set them up that way also left around the same time as me and that from talking with former coworkers, they’re really hurting and need more in the position I was in. I tried to re-apply for my position but they still had the original one up, so the date isn’t updating on my end to show when I last applied and I’m not getting a confirmation e-mail (when you’re supposed to).

    My question is, who should I email at the company about seeing if I can re-apply (assuming it didn’t go through)? There’s the HR recruiter, but there’s also my old boss (though he might not get a say in it and no guarantee I’d be placed with him again) and there’s the job agency recruiter (who I was technically employed through, but the company itself does the interviewing parts then sends us to the agency to be employed).

  168. Random Comment*

    What’s the best way to get into being a personal assistant (or whatever the proper term is?) I want to be the Donna to someone’s Harvey. I like to be told what to do and then do it (seriously) and I love helping people and I already have to keep track of other people’s schedules and whatnot (kids, etc.) I’ve never had an office job before though.

    1. Blue Anne*

      If you’re applying to PA jobs in offices and not making it yet, maybe you could pick up a part time PA job for an entrepreneur or small business owner? I work more than full-time and also have 18 rentals, so I hired a local SAHM who was looking to transition into work. She does a mix of business and personal stuff for me, about 12-15 hours a week. It’s been a lifesaver and I will give her a glowing recommendation when she moves on. I just found her by posting in my neighborhood Nextdoor. It might be worth checking out local pages like that.

    2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      There are virtual assistant gigs online that you could probably get to get some experience going, but otherwise, just apply for personal assistant gigs! They tend to prize organization and attention to detail (so, absolutely no typos in your materials, everything looking professional, etc). Showing enthusiasm for it will get you a lot of points, since they tend to be jobs that folks take because they need them… the person who really wants to build the career is a rare gem!

      You can go either nonprofit or corporate (corporate will tend to pay better, but you might have less competition for entry-level in nonprofits). Idealist is generally a good place to look for nonprofits, and if you happen to be in DC there’s a recruiting firm called Hawthorne Lane that specializes in admin, operations, and assistant type roles.

      1. Casuan*

        This.
        Do you have preference working as more of a “personal” PA [eg: for a well-known person] or to be in a corporate environment?
        Especially if the former, it might help to expand your experience & connections. To append to the other comments, many cities have local concierge services & certain organisations include such services as part of the membership.

    3. nonymous*

      If you have experience in childcare (and are okay keeping that part of it, but as a lower % of overall work), maybe look for a nanny gig that is labeled “mother’s helper”. I know some RE agents will hire someone to do light admin work/social media/errands while kids are at school and then the helper switches to nanny mode after school until spouse comes home.

  169. April Fools' Day*

    So Sunday is April Fools…anyone doing any good office pranks on Monday?

    Coworker has been rewatching The Office, so we decided we’re going to swap our boss’s stapler with an old stapler in Jell-O.

    I’ve never been more excited to come into work on Monday.

    1. Short & Dumpy*

      Nope. I don’t think there is a single person in my entire office who finds practical jokes funny…most of us have history of them being used by bullies as a “…it was just a joke” excuse for an increased level of nastiness.

      Know your audience well…because there are a LOT of us to truly loathe the entire concept.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        Yep, I might prank friends (I’ll probably put bubble wrap under my buddy’s doormat) but I would never pull pranks at work.

        Unless it’s something super minor and completely harmless, like putting googly-eyes on the printer, pranks are too much risk, too little reward.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      New job, and given the flavor of the overall troubled culture, I highly doubt there will be any pranks. People barely talk to each other as it is. (I’m probably not going to be staying long term…)

    3. Casuan*

      AFD, I’m glad you’re looking forward to Monday!!

      Back in the day I was a prankster although I had to stop when I got ill because one can’t pull a practical joke without expecting retaliation— so even if I could perpetrate the joke I wouldn’t have the energy to deal with the retaliation.
      I miss those days!!

      Just be certain the joke will be appreciated so that your fun isn’t spoiled!

    6. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I haaaaaaate practical jokes. I have come across a few cute and harmless jokes or pranks, like one in school where we had a long list of instructions that got sillier as they went on but the first one was “read the whole list before you do anything” and the last one was “don’t actually do any of this stuff”. That amused me. But the majority of April Fool’s jokes I have encountered have been mean-spirited at heart, so be very careful.

      On the other hand, the fact that you already noted that you used an old stapler and not the boss’ good one for your prank is a point in your favor.

  170. Someone else*

    I am looking for help with language to help me self-select out of jobs that would be a bad fit for me. Here’s specifically what I dislike most about my current role that I’m hoping to avoid in the future without making myself sound whiny and/or unreasonable:

    Client/Boss/Coworker/Some Other Human defines Task For Me To Do
    Agrees in writing to nature of Task
    I get 90% done with Task
    C/B/CW/SOH decides “Actually Task needs to be something different” in a way that means starting over from scratch
    or I finish Task and hand it over for review
    C/B/CW/SOH claims “this is not I asked for”
    I show them their agreement in writing.
    They claim something to the effect of “yes but clearly when I SAID exactly what I produced I MEANT something different enough to require starting over.

    What’s the nutshell plain English way to describe that sort of thing so I can basically say “I don’t like working places where that is common and/or acceptable.”

    Or is such a place a fairytale? I’ve always been bothered by this, and I thought it was because it happened constantly in my first ever job (which sucked for many more reasons than just this) so it’s become a sort of peeve that I find completely intolerable. It doesn’t happen nearly as much in my current job, but when it does it really bothers me. I want to get away from work where this is normal.

    1. Canadian Teapots*

      Oh wow. :( That sucks.

      Unfortunately, anecdata from the tech sector I’ve seen over the years is that this is a -common- problem. Customers have this idea and they don’t communicate it well, whereupon the webdev will try to match it as best as described, and then the customer goes “nonononono! I wanted *new request not previously stated or implied*!”

      One big suggestion might be this: Ask the customer/client to draw on a piece of paper what they envision. Sometimes a visual mockup can go a long way.

      As for your verbiage, maybe say, “I prefer positions which stick to clear requirements and a formal process for amending agreements to mutual satisfaction”? That might cut out a lot of the people who let clients change things ad hoc and expect the developer/designer to just happily be steamrolled into eating the expense of redesigning $PROJECT_XYZ.

    2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq.*

      I think you’ll have more luck in bigger companies than smaller ones. Especially at startups, there’s generally an expectation that you’re able to roll with the punches and abandon work that isn’t what’s needed anymore, so that would probably drive you nuts!

      It might also be industry-dependent. If you’re doing project-based work, tbh I think that’s just something you have to live with… sometimes, needs change. Whereas if you’re, say, a database administrator, a lot more of your work is going to be doing similar tasks over and over, running reports, and other stuff where you’re responding to requests for info, and those might have less of this issue.

      The other thing I’d recommend is, if you’re finding this happening a lot, just checking in more often with the boss/client/whatever. If you get 25% of the way thru and provide an update that triggers a change, that’s a lot better than finding out at 90%. So, when you’re interviewing for a job, you might ask a lot about your manager’s style, and make sure they’re into a high-communication relationship where you’re providing lots of samples and early work for their review. You can certainly ask outright “Let’s say you assign me a project, and it turns out that halfway through, the client’s needs totally change. How do you usually handle that? How do you ensure that clients are letting us know as soon as possible when something needs to be done differently?” or something similar… as long as its focusing on discovering actual work and communication processes.

    3. Cedrus Libani*

      I had that bad boss too. The hard part, for me at least, was not coming across as rigid – which I’m not, I’ve worked in chaotic startups where the plan changes weekly, and that was fine. And part of my work involves helping clients to figure out exactly what they want, which generally involves re-prioritization once they realize how much their original plan will cost, and that’s fine too. I just really, really hate getting chewed on because I didn’t magically guess what the boss wanted.

      What I ended up saying – and I’m not claiming this to be a perfect model of professionalism, but I did get hired, by someone I like working for – was the following:

      “In military parlance, there’s something called a ‘rock drill’. You, get me a rock. So you get a rock. No, get me a ROCK. You try big rock, shiny rock, pointy rock, etc. No, I want a ROCK! I can work with a wide range of management styles, but that one I truly can’t stand. I’m not a psychic, so if you want me to do something a certain way, you need to actually TELL me what you want.”

  171. Short & Dumpy*

    Here’s a hint for the Instructor I’ve been stuck with the last couple days (though he clearly does not read this blog):

    If you start an anecdote or a joke off with “I probably shouldn’t tell this but…” or “I’ve offended people before for telling this but…” STOP TALKING. For love of whatever, shut up about your inappropriate tangent and go back to teaching the material.

    Oh, and welcome to the modern world…maybe stop slapping people on the back hard enough to stagger them when you look a their computer screens, throwing markers at people who ask questions, and calling people by potentially offensive nicknames you come up with the first day.

    And shocker…if you cut out all the time wasted on inappropriate and totally unrelated stories & jokes, you might actually be able to make it through all the material we just paid your company a crapload of money to teach.

    Sigh.

    (and hey, have I ever got a recommendation for a company to NOT have come teach an InDesign workshop for everyone else)

    2. Zennish*

      Sounds like you’re taking the management course I had to suffer through a few years ago. As an added bonus, the instructor was supposed to be covering emotional intelligence and discrimination…

  173. CynthiaHenna*

    I have a mobile business and have been using PayPal for years to take payments by credit/debit card. I have a small horror story and then watched a more in depth horror story on YouTube about their business practices and non existant customer service. They actually took money out of my personal bank account that I had been legitimately paid. So, I am looking for an alternative. What do other people use and are happy with? Thank you!

    1. Canadian Teapots*

      Oh, Yikes. Paypal is notorious for siding with buyers even when buyers are practically committing out and out fraud. Um, there’s amazon payments, I believe? And I think google has something too, though understandably you may not really want to use it given how google has its fingers in everything else already.

      There’s also a thing called Venmo, apparently.

      This is only information I know secondhand from people complaining about Paypal, though, but a quick DuckDuckGo search reveals quite a few PSA posts discussing alternatives to PP for people and businesses.

    2. Effie, who is wondering*

      One of my friends is a small business owner and she’s very happy with Square, which charges a fee for processing credit/debit cards, no fee for cash, and no fee for Apple pay. She adjusts her prices and gives people a discount for paying with cash/Apple pay to cover the charge.

      The Google alternative is Google Wallet which I used to use based on a friend’s recommendations. No complaints but I stopped using it when they asked me to add my SSN (it wasn’t a requirement when I signed up).

      Caution against Venmo – if a payment is sent to the wrong person (mistyped email or something), there’s nothing you can do about it and Venmo won’t do anything and you just have to hope the person is nice and sends it back to the original sender.

    4. nonymous*

      Depending on your business you can see if ACH transfers are an option. People who have access to Zelle just need your email and phone number to send the payment. You would have to be registered with Zelle as well. It is like Venmo, no guarantees if someone mistypes. But because the process is initiated via the bank, it’s possible to dispute the transaction at the bank level.

      My credit union uses a different version, called popmoney.

    5. Red Reader*

      Square.

      The other suggestion I’ve heard is to have the funds deposited into a separate account, then transfer it to your primary one immediately. It may take a day longer to get the money, but clawbacks wont affect your main account that way.

  174. Locke*

    My boss is going on long term leave soon (about 1 year) and my company are hiring for her role. I was encouraged to apply as, I think, were the other 5 people she currently manages. I found out recently that I got an interview which has made it all much more real but I wanted some advice about how to manage my relationship with my current peers if I get the job. Obviously my relationship with them would change but I don’t know exactly how as I’ve never been in this situation before and I suspect, much as I get on with them now, some of them might be difficult to manage. This would be complicated by the fact that I’m the most recent hire at my level so would be leap frogging the others which might cause some resentment. Already there’s been rumblings about the lack of opportunities for advancement here.
    I know this might be counting my chickens before they hatch but it’s causing me some serious concern and I want to have a plan. Similarly if one of my co-workers gets the role what’s the best strategy for relating to them going forward?

    1. Not a Supervisor anymore*

      Having been promoted from within and in my same department this can be a difficult transition for some. You are held to a higher standard than just an ordinary employee. The relationships you have with your peers WILL have to change if you get the position. Some of your peers that you have relationships with now might resent you later. This is when you find out how tight those relationships were! Things like personal conversations you have with your peers you won’t be able to have with your subordinates. You will have to be comfortable with issuing coachings and or corrective actions to your peers. Remember, anything that happens or does not happen in your department will more than likely come back on you. I don’t want to scare you as I feel this could be a great opportunity for you. Some people just get so excited about the “title of boss” and let it go to their heads. Do what you feel is right for yourself at this point in your career. Good Luck!!

      1. Locke*

        Thank you! This is helpful. I’m hoping that people will be adult about this but we definitely have some strong personalities who might make their resentment known. I wonder if things like after work drinks are still appropriate? My boss has children which is why she tends not to come though maybe that’s an excuse?

        1. valentine*

          Decide where the line is and stick to it. You can rein it further in but don’t let it slack. You shouldn’t be their sounding board or indulge gossip or useless complaints. Think about how you want a VP or someone to behave, even if you don’t want to be a VP, and lead by example. You can’t be friends with them. See the comments in the update about the Rising Star and the manager who pushed her out instead of happily working with her or at least waiting her out. Make sure you can point to excellent work as the reason for promotion or poor work as the reason for censure, even if these align with who you used to be closer to. Work drinks are okay in the UK, but maybe change to lunches? Your manager was also probably letting you socialize without her. If you have PIP/firing power, think through the procedures and how you would use them. Read through some letters here and imagine what you would say if someone tried debating, rules-lawyering, or crying. Don’t expect people to get hints or suddenly start behaving the way you secretly want them to (letter about the university staff member hanging out with her friend at and letting her friend insert herself into work). Don’t let them manipulate you with accusations of how you used to be fun or the like. Shift from the idea of leapfrogging or years with company equals seniority to merit-based advancement. I hope you get the job.

  175. CA PM*

    Hi,
    I hope I’m not too late. I have a questions regarding searching for work. I have been searching for two years. One year while employed and the past year while out of work. Long story as to why I quit, is that my boss discriminated against me and then retaliated when I reported this to HR to facilitate a transfer to another department. I’m working with a career coach and she wants me to follow up on resumes I have sent by searching for phone numbers and calling HR. To me this is a bad idea, and it sounds pushy. She insists this results in interviews. Against my better judgement I did this a few times and each time I was so uncomfortable, she would impersonate me on the call. None of these calls has resulted in interviews.

    Is this a new thing? I’m much older and to me this seems like a gimmick. Has anyone done this? If so, were you able to get interviews at the companies?

    2. valentine*

      If they’re not providing a number, calling shows you don’t follow directions. Employers are unlikely to tell you your status when you do this, nothing good for you will come from impersonation, and there are several letters here about how annoying this is to hiring managers.

      1. CA PM*

        Thank you. I missed the letter in 2016. This just seems like something that makes candidates stand out, but in a bad way. This coach is much younger than me, and I was wonder if as an older person I was just out of touch with current job hunting trends. I’ll have to push back harder and make it clear that I am not going to call anyone I have only sent a resume and cover letter to.

  176. Not a Supervisor*

    I was an Office Supervisor in my last position and I am currently looking for a clerical position without any supervisory duties. How do those in charge of hiring view candidates that have Supervisory experience but are applying for lower level positions? I’ve applied to numerous positions and nothing.

    1. Kathenus*

      One key here is to be clear in your cover letter why you are applying for a lower level position, so the hiring manager can see that you really want that job, versus just trying to get any job. In the latter case they might be worried that you won’t stay, or won’t be happy in the lower level position. But if you proactively explain your reasons it may help, a lot. I’ve interviewed people in situations like this, and at times really loved all that they brought to the table from their past experience. The knowledge of why they were looking for the change, if it seemed to make sense, was a key in the decision to interview them.

  177. Vertigo*

    How do you quit a job when the reason you’re leaving is a safety issue, and how do you explain that in an interview?

    I work in a start up, and my boss (who is frustrating in enough other ways that would require a whole nother post), seems to be really cavalier about the problems caused by renovation of the building complex (specifically of the unit above us). It’s almost like he’s in denial – I’m only part time and can work from home, but we had demolition loud enough that you had to yell to be heard, debris dust raining down in certain areas, and the construction guys have actually broke through the ceiling TWICE. There was a mad search for temporary office space, but we were originally going to have a photo shoot there next week and there’s no plans to cancel it. He’s shown crappy judgement like this before; I used to say that he doesn’t seem to feel like a problem requires a major change in procedure or attitude until it becomes a catastrophe, but a hole in the ceiling seems like a catastrophe to me and to him it’s something we’ll all laugh about later, right?

    Point is, I’m not convinced that he won’t try and make us go back, or try to minimize things, and if he does, I don’t feel like I can justify working there. If not for safety, than just because it makes me so angry. I don’t want to seem like a drama queen, but I need to know how to have that conversation in a constructive way. And if I do quit, (or if things get really bad and i get fired), how do I explain that to future employers? I need a classier line than “I couldn’t work in an office where an inept construction guy might open a hole in the ceiling and drop cables through”.

    (I have plenty of other reasons for ‘why are you leaving your current position, but if I end up job hunting without being employed I want to be able to explain that.

  178. Harry Potter and the Neverending Meeting*

    I have a friend I met through work. We’ve taken trips together, talk daily, and do a lot of activities together. The last couple of weeks she’s been visiting psychics (three that I am aware of). After she visited the last one, she has blocked me on everything. She accused me of cursing her, plotting against her, “manifesting” bad things in her life, etc. I am completely at a loss for how to handle this. Obviously I did not curse her. I’m into astrology and went with her to a magic shop once. I’ve read a bit about Pagan traditions. But I am not a witch or cursing people or anything. I’m concerned about her…she has not ever acted like this in the past year that we’ve been good friends. I’m also worried about this impacting work. Obviously I don’t think people would believe I’ve cursed her, but I don’t want anyone to think I’m threatening her or intimidating her in any way. I spoke to her earlier today and everything was normal. Then she met with a psychic tonight, and all of this happened. Honestly, I didn’t realize people could still be accused of witchcraft in 2018. We are on different teams, but in the same department. We don’t have to interact in any way at work, so my plan is to avoid her. I’m open to any suggestions though!

    1. HRH The Duke of Coriander and Gomasio*

      I would just interact with her normally at work. I would forget about hanging out with her outside work. TBH she sounds unstable.

      1. Triple Anon*

        Exactly. I would let the friendship go and move on, but still be polite and normal at work.

        Has she brought any of these accusations into the workplace? If so, that would be a different kind of issue. But it’s more likely to make her look bad than you. I can imagine it would be upsetting. I would be glad I’m not involved in whatever is going on there and try to just do my job and keep a reasonable distance.

  179. Akcipitrokulo*

    Yes – definite improvement from then on!

    Vetinari isn’t actually that bad either as long as he doesn’t kill you.

  180. Diluted_Tortoiseshell*

    I am so mad this morning about something that happened as I was leaving work Friday night.

    TLDR; Has anyone else had to deal with being held to what felt like a different higher standard for “friendliness” and how did you handle it?

    My boss’s other direct reports constantly are rude, send out emails with all caps threatening correct action plans etc. I had to send a hard email on Friday and I used humor to keep it light and still get the message across. I had 6+ folks come up to me and say how much they liked the message. Its rare for people to compliment an email so I thought ‘Awesome I nailed this!’

    Well one of my peers came up to me, literally shaking in rage, eyes wide like I had smacked her child across the face, and harped on about one sentence. I agree – out of the context of the entire email that would be a problematic sentence. But in scope it was clear specifically what I was talking about.

    Anyway it just really pissed me off as this is typical for them. I’m told “Don’t take things personally” but they do it all the time. My boss always backs them and I am just sick of it. He was in the room when this went down and just ignored the whole thing even though the peer, his direct report, literally came over and interrupted our meeting to do this.

    1. HRH The Duke of Coriander and Gomasio*

      If this is a common occurrence in your office it might be time to move on. Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change.

  181. Harried Educator*

    I don’t want to be promoted. Recently, my manager came to me to ask if I wanted a promotion to be her right-hand woman. It involves managing teachers who are not on task and whose work needs improvement. I also have to listen to parents and track down missing worksheets and the like. In other words, it’s s***work that I don’t want to do. Since my company tends to promote people without giving them a raise, I declined. The last time I was promoted, I didn’t even get a raise, either, and I was too stupid and naive to ask.

    Because the position involves talking to colleagues and parents more, I’ve refused. I actually do not like people. I think they are full of BS. I also have a mental illness, which makes dealing with people harder. I am prone to short outbursts and I don’t deal with issues well. I did tell my manager that I would rather do curriculum work, but there doesn’t seem to be any opening.

    I just… don’t like work that involves interacting with people more and more. If I could, I would be a librarian, but there are 0 jobs like that in my city. I want to look into something that involves interacting less with people while also giving me a liveable wage.

  182. sonicgirl95*

    Anyone have any advice for a good cover letter and/or resume reviewing site? I’ve been job searching for a year now as a recent graduate, and have probably put in about 90 applications at this point. I know my lack of experience explains some of the rejections, but I’d love to make sure I have all my bases covered. Thank you!

      1. sonicgirl95*

        Thanks so much for the help. I’ve tried looking at Alison’s cover letters multiple times, and they are the current basis of my cover letter. Alison’s too busy to look at cover letters though, so I was wondering if anyone knew someplace I could have it looked at.

  183. Dr. Dog*

    My co-worker’s wife just had a baby and well, the miracle of life hasn’t brought out the best in him.

    He’s been more rude, cranky, bossy, and occasionally makes xenophobic comments about European students taking our jobs. And there is the occasional low level sexist bullshit — he asks me to trade shifts, but it’s my job to do the secretary working of making sure it’s on the schedule.

    I seem to be getting more of my fair share of the crap. I have been done since he rearranged my work space without my permission because I move my chair too much in the current set up. I confronted him with my Serious Lady Voice ™ and told him not to touch anything on my desk ever again. His response was to lie about it being to ‘help me’.

    We are both equals in a 3 year program. How do I ignore his negativity without him inciting more passive aggressive bullshit?

    Thanks for letting me vent.

    1. valentine*

      I love the saying “Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.” You don’t have to take on his problems. Trade fewer shifts if you’re just doing it to be nice. If not scheduling the shift change would reflect poorly on you, next time, email him that, going forward, to streamline things, whoever asks for the change schedules it. If your supervisor is the type who claims “I don’t care who does it; get it done” to you and not this gross dude, maybe a job change is in order. Moving your stuff is just aggressive, especially if you don’t share space. If you don’t already have one, find something that works as a switch that refocuses you. So he is cranky but you are enjoying the rain, so you you delve into proofreading your TPS report. He is rude/xenophobic and you evenly say, “That’s inappropriate,” probably two or three times in a row, interrupting him, if necessary, as he bangs on, and then turn your hourglass over before you pick out the cover for your TPS report. You can say you’re not his sounding board or venting target and “I’m not an appropriate audience for that.” Making this rote and sounding bored might help. I hope this works out for you.

      1. Dr. Dog*

        Thank you so much. This is very helpful.

        I had a ‘talk’ with the bosses, but it seemed to put a lot of the communication burden on me. I was surprised that they glossed over how inappropriately he was behaving. I thought it was going okay, but apparently my office mate is annoyed by the tension between us.

        Honestly, I just want to be left alone about this. I’m trying to come up with scripts, but it’s a drain on my productivity. I love my job and it’s the only game in a small town.

  184. HighTurnover*

    Opinions please.

    Our company has an extremely high turnover. Low staff morale, lower than national average wages, constant negative feedback, poor management and favoritism are all rife. Its expected that there will be a high turnover in certain teams.

    However, we used to have 2 directors. Director 1 sold the company 2 years ago to our main supplier, and director 2 stepped up to the plate. Director 2 has now tendored his resignation after 1 year. He has been there 15 years.

    Now the next big boss has been telling everyone that things will improve from now on. Managers will get more autonomy, everyone’s wages will improve to industry standard etc. However if director 2 left after 1 year after 15 years, surely there is something going on we are not privy too?

    This is a small family run company also, which complicates things. Our teapot director is married to director 2 and a lot of responsibility has been removed from their job role (side note: is salty as hell and will now answer all requests with ‘well thats not in my job description anymore so i cant help you’).

    I got distracted but basically if grandboss is jumping ship, should we? Should we wait and see if there are improvements as promised? I am being paid 8k less than i should be comparatively with other similar positions i have been looking at. i have been passed over for promotion 3 times (literally was told they were going with an agency, and the teapot director brought in a close personal friend who ended up being let go after 2 months as they had NO experience) so im really torn at the moment.

    1. Ok*

      This is probably one of these circumstances where you look for other opportunities and if something good comes along you make a decision then. In the meantime you work your job like there is no where else you want to be and keep an eye out for the improvements. If the issues you list are from the original company and not the one that bought you out things usually do change and it’s not unusual for the original high level employees to leave even a year later.

    3. Triple Anon*

      What you described does sound sketchy. Pay attention to people in what I call “canary in the coal mine” roles – positions that are lower ranking yet give one a broad and insightful view of the company. That usually includes HR, executive assistants, finance, and information management (not IT but the people who manage the actual information and software used to manage it). What is the turnover rate for those roles? How do people in those roles behave? Do they seem worried? Burned out? Indifferent?

      I think that someone leaving shortly after a promotion is a big red flag. I would fear that they had gained insights into the company that caused them to look elsewhere. They might have chosen this early on but stuck it out for a year so that it would look ok on their resume. The family and relationship stuff is, obviously, another red flag I’d be concerned about.

      But if you like your job and you’re more sheltered from all the upheaval than most of your co-workers, it might be worth it to stay. I’d just have a backup plan in case things take a turn for the worse.

  185. DesertRose*

    What’s your favorite thing someone did at work to protest a ridiculous rule or order/request from people higher up the chain of command?

    Mine is from my mom’s work. She worked as a civilian for a Department of the Navy activity, and one of her coworkers tended to wear shorts to work, nothing too out there; the shorts just looked like knee-length casual trousers (we live in Florida, so this isn’t super unusual). Their supervisor told Shorts Guy that he needed to wear long trousers because shorts weren’t in the (nonexistent) dress code. What was actually happening was that some Navy brass were showing up for an inspection, and Supervisor just wanted Shorts Guy to wear full-length khakis or whatever while the brass were there.

    So Shorts Guy wears full-length trousers while the brass were there, and then, the next business day after the inspectors had left, he shows up to work in a light-tan utilikilt. Just to make a point that there wasn’t actually a dress code.

    (To be clear, if Supervisor had told Shorts Guy to wear long trousers just for the inspection, that would have been fine, but for Supervisor to tell Shorts Guy that he was violating a dress code that didn’t exist annoyed him.)

  186. School Psych*

    Does anyone else work for a school-district and have any advice on navigating the bureaucratic district interview process? I’m a school-based related service professional and am looking for a position for next year because my current district is a long commute and I’m not working with my preferred age level. It’s a small district, so there’s pretty much no opportunity to change my role from what it currently is. I’ve written out answers to common interview questions and practiced, and done a mock interview with career services. Positions with better districts rarely open up for my role and the process is extremely competitive. I’m not sure what else to do to increase my chances. It’s very frustrating because districts are super particular about what they are looking at. I’m unable to gain additional types of experiences that might give me an edge where I currently am, so I really need to move on in order to grow my career.

    1. Julianne*

      Are there chapters of professional organizations for school psychologists in your local area that might offer networking opportunities? Or do you know any school psychs or other service providers who work for the districts you’re interested in who could recommend you to the special education department (assuming that’s who hires school psychs in your area)? I’d also recommend district job fairs, if those are offered by the districts you want to work for (I know my district has one annually for special education service providers specifically, separate from those for teachers).

      1. School Psych*

        I belong to my area’s professional organization and go to our networking conference annually. This professional organization holds a job fair at the conference, but most of the districts that attend are rural districts. I’m not in a position to move for various reasons. The districts in my area have their own job fairs for teachers, but not for related service. There are a ton of training programs in my area, so the better districts have no problem attracting applicants. I have a lot of connections with other service providers, but they also work in high-needs, urban districts. I’m really burnt out on this type of setting and need a change. I think networking is a great idea, but unfortunately do not know anyone who could help me make a connection with a different type of district.

  187. OpitmusManager*

    I want to ask a question. I have completed my first year as a manager. Review time came, all employees got the best possible review. Their performances were top notch in our company and fall within a top 5% in a large 3000+ employee company. I got a very great review too as a manger and fell in that range. Review time came and went, and we still had no answers as to what salary increases we would have. It was either we’d find out we’d get the increase starting April, July or never this year. Unfortunately, the “never” is what happened and we were told 2 days after we just told the employees we are holding off on increases due to a delay. The company decided to do no salary increases among all employees in the company.

    I know I am obligated as a manager to tell the employees working for me they are not getting a raise due to a company wide decision, but they are all SEVERELY underpaid and were expecting something this year. Now, they are not getting anything. I guess this leaves me to a few questions:

    Am I required to tell them why? There was no official communication as to why but it was shared with me that it was due to revenue not being as high as last year or what was expected. There will be no company wide communication either regarding this decision.

    How soon should I tell them? Can I stretch this out until July? I’d rather be fair to the employee and give them a heads up now, but my fear is that they’ll start to look and find jobs sooner or later. I totally get it, they want to be paid what they are worth, but I don’t want to be stuck with all of their work and the department is a small department of 4 where I was only able to squeeze in 3 people’s cross-training last year under my first year. So the work would fall on my plate if they left. I would like to have that extra time to prep and cross-train more.

    Should I be looking myself? I have a lot of personal situations, which is essentially keeping me here. But I’ve had offers that paid me $20,000 than what I am making today which I still kick myself for not taking (because it may have been a better spot for me despite a lower salary). The reason why I ask is because my company is owned by a private equity firm and I won’t know where I am 3-5 years from now.. and with lower revenue and no raises, I’m thinking more layoffs are next to make up for the loses, and those are usually done at a higher salary management level.

    Thoughts?

    1. Thlayli*

      Tell them ASAP, be honest, and expect them to start job searching, and start searching yourself too. Sounds like company is either in big trouble or doesn’t care at all about its employees.

      1. HRH The Duke of Coriander and Gomasio*

        Agree. You should explore whether you can make up for it by giving extra vacation days or flexible schedules.

  188. Triple Anon*

    Positive feedback. I’ve found it’s harder to give people positive feedback than constructive criticism. For example, it’s easy to point out that some spelled a word wrong or made a grammatical mistake; it’s harder to describe in detail what makes their writing good.

    When teaching, I want to give students more meaningful positive feedback. Stuff that’s detailed, genuine, and helpful. In the moment. Not just in writing when I’ve had time to think about it.

    So far, I’ve been finding myself saying, “Great work!”, “That’s a good idea!”, etc. And I realize that those kinds of things alone are not enough.

    If you teach or manage or mentor or anything like that, what are your strategies for giving meaningful positive feedback?

    1. Julianne*

      Look at how your students are taking up what you’ve taught them about writing, or how they’re incorporating previous feedback into their writing. For example, when I did report writing with my (elementary) students, one of our lessons was about how writers organize related pieces of information into paragraphs and/or subsections, so I looked for opportunities to give feedback about that on a subsequent draft. There may be some benchmarks for writing at the level you teach that could use as a source for feedback (examples for my students include spelling high-frequency words correctly, or checking the spelling of content-specific words we’ve learned by referring back to their notebooks while writing).

  189. Sick Leave*

    If you are non-exempt and you have 10 days of sick leave per year, is it illegal to not let your employee use that time for appointments?

    When I have appointments my boss makes me stay late/come early to make up the time. This is not a organization-wide policy. Everyone else who is non-exempt in our department either:
    1) doesn’t clock out for appointments and goes to appointments like an exempt employee would
    or
    2) uses their sick time

    My boss goes crazy when anyone calls out sick or is late on our team. I have noticed some other people who report to my boss do have some attendance issues, however I have been here for one year and have called out sick 0 times, have been late 0 times, and have taken only a few days PTO the entire year (requested way in advance). I also do not have any productivity issues I am aware of. Is this unreasonable that she is making me make up the time when I have the occasional appointment when I have a bank of unused sick time?

    1. Someone else*

      I don’t know about the legality (it depends on where you are, I suspect, and more details I don’t have) but if the company officially gives you 10 paid sick days, yes it is very bizarre of your boss to insist you “make up the time”. If they’re unpaid sick days, it’s still weird but possibly slightly less if the goal were in theory to prevent you from losing money/keep up productivity. If I were you I’d ask HR about how your sick leave is intended to work. Don’t bring what’s happened before into it or seem like you’re going around your boss. Just ask from an “I want to understand” angle and then if it comes up again with your boss, push back with “my understanding of the policy is X, can you explain to me why Y?” and see what happens.

  190. Some sort of Management Consultant*

    I can’t decide whether or not to take next week off. (Depression relapse which I’ve talked in the other weekend thread) Help?

    I’m seeing my doc on the 9th and she’s already said she can give me a retroactive doctor’s note for next week.

    Pros:
    – I’m feeling slightly better and could probably get through the week in a “no one notices how bad I feel”-manner
    – more than two weeks off means contact with the Social Security Office who seem to be denying all applications for sick leave right now
    – it’s easter break and flu season so no one would ask questions about where I am
    – My boss is off on an extended leave due to burnout and would totally understand my having to have a few weeks off
    – We’re in a waiting period at my project due to lots of replanning

    Cons:
    – I would have to pretend to be productive all week and be constantly scared I’m gonna be found out
    – anxiety means tiredness and I’m already tired
    – performance reviews are coming up. After a great track record this year, I don’t want to end it badly
    – I’ve already been off quite a bit from aug-now (gallstones, norovirus)
    – Colleagues are already commenting about what bad luck I have with my health

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