open thread – April 20-21, 2018

by Alison Green on April 20, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Anonymous for this*

    I have discovered something weird about a new(ish) coworker. It is not a big deal, but it creeps me out a little bit and I wonder if I should say something.

    She has been here about 4 months, and is doing a good job and is friendly. A first, she ate with the team every day, but lately, she has started eating at her desk (doing personal stuff or working) or out.

    I discovered by accident that for the lunch break, she actually goes to the nearest cemetery (it is located about 100 meters from the office, so very close) and reads on a bench. It is not a creepy cemetery, it has a lot a trees, but it is still a cemetery.

    I think it is weird that she goes there during her break instead of eating with us. Should I say something to the other coworkers or her manager (who is my manager too) ? Should I talk to her to know why she does this ? Isn’t it a bit unprofessional ? What if someone else from the office saw her ? Am I the only one to be creeped out by her behaviour ?

            1. The Cosmic Avenger*

              Thirding. Sounds nice and peaceful to me! I actually prefer talking to people, but if I wanted quiet time and had a cemetery nearby, that might be what I would do!

              1. Still Looking*

                I find cemeteries to be really peaceful and interesting. Not everyone thinks they’re creepy.

                1. Lauren*

                  It’s peaceful and she isn’t harming anyone (if OP is an atheist) and is providing reading material and companionship to the ‘residents’ (if OP has afterlife beliefs).

                  She isn’t skateboarding off the headstones, which would be wrong. She is sitting and reading on a bench. Creepy to you, but not to her. And not to other people, but I worry that you will put your own spin on telling this private lunchtime activity to others. Please don’t turn this into a thing where she is branded as weird at work, because this isn’t a thing to worry over or concern yourself with.

                  People walk, bike, and learn to drive in cemeteries. People sunbathe in cemeteries in Europe. They are like giant parks in Denmark. It is usually public property, and diff people use it even when not there a funeral or visit to a loved one. As long as you are not being disrespectful to the graves (ex. taking a nap directly on a grave), I’m not sure why you feel you need to out her as if its something that she needs to be scolded for at work – especially since it isn’t happening on work time.

                2. Kali*

                  There’s a 150+ year old cemetery near me. The city seems to have grown around it, so it’s just a little cemetery, about the size that would be taken up by a mid-sized house, on a residential, suburban street (I say suburban, we’re less than a mile from the city centre). There’s one grave that I took a photo of the other day; a tree has grown right through the headstone, cracking it. It’s one of those that lies flat, and the tree has cut halfway into it.

                3. Kali*

                  …though, I did get creeped out earlier. I study biology, we share a building with the pharmacy and med schools, and, long story short, our tutorial classroom for this semester is next to the mortuary.

                5. Blue*

                  I feel the same. Whenever I visit one an old cemetery, I think about those individuals and what their lives might’ve been like (I’m a historian, so that’s not as weird as it sounds). I think there’s something kind of beautiful about acknowledging the lives of perfectly ordinary individuals who’ve largely been forgotten.

                6. Quoth the Raven*

                  And in my case, although I don’t go to cemeteries often, I find the architecture and artistic design in mausoleums and tomb stones to be really interesting.

                  Some cemeteries are actual museums or tourist attractions. I know I’d go to Père Lachaise and Montparnasse if I went to Paris, or Hollywood Forever in LA, for example.

                7. Quoth the Raven*

                  To add, I also live in Mexico City. We celebrate Day of the Dead (think Coco). So they can be very bright and colourful and not necessarily solemn and “creepy”.

              2. PhyllisB*

                Agreed. There is one near my house that is beautiful and has a pond. Now that the weather is nice, I have thought about going there for a picnic lunch/read a book. Obviously not on a day when there is an interment, but it’s such a peaceful place, plus I have family members there. Maybe she does, too. Don’t say anything; just let her be.

          2. Hills to Die on*

            Fully none of your business. You’re the one who is going to seem odd if you bring it up to a manager (or anyone else).

          3. Specialk9*

            Agreed, you’re going to sound like a gossip if you whisper to your coworkers and manager how creepy this person is for their private and harmless activities in their personal time.

            Wait, no, I meant you’ll BE a gossip.

        2. ThatGirl*

          You’re allowed to find it creepy, I guess, but it’s not unprofessional and doesn’t strike me as remotely strange. Nor should it affect you or anyone else you work with in any way. It’s a cemetery, not a meth house.

          1. Phoenix HR Lady*

            +1 Not unprofessional at all. She found a peaceful place outside to read that happens to be in a cemetery. Perhaps someone close to her is laid to rest there and that allows her to feel close to them. Maybe she just finds it relaxing. Either way, bringing that to someone’s attention would really just make you sound catty, and I would guess that is definitely not your intention. :-)

            1. Anion*

              Yes, I had that thought, too: it’s possible a friend or family member is buried there, and she goes there to read because it makes her feel close to them.

              Either way, it’s weird to you, OP, and it’s fine that you think it is, but it’s likely other people will have the same “So what?” response that many of us (myself included–I like cemeteries, and if there was one near me I’d totally go have lunch and/or read or even work on my laptop there) have, and you’ll look like you’re being nitpicky and trying to “get” her. So please don’t mention it!

            2. The Rat-Catcher*

              I had this thought as well. It may bring her some comfort if she has a loved one laid to rest there. She may have gone out to eat with you all at first because she felt like that’s What You Do at a new job, but maybe as she’s gotten more comfortable, she’s returned to what was a normal routine for her.

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            Yup. We’re allowed to have emotional reactions to things, finding our coworkers’ habits creepy or endearing or dull or whatnot. We don’t need to take action and tell people they have engendered these emotions. Just think “huh” and go on about your day.

            It’s not unprofessional. Skateboarding off the headstones in a company T-shirt would be, but all you have here is a person who likes to read outdoors somewhere quiet when the weather is nice.

          2. Sandra*

            That was my first thought as well. Maybe this gives her a way to disengage from the office Mean Girls without being “political” and also get a little quiet time.

            1. Say What, now?*

              Whoa, we don’t know that they’re mean. Some people get wigged out by cemeteries and I think the OP just got herself worked up with her own hang-ups.

              OP- There can be a stigma to cemeteries, but there really shouldn’t be. They are a place where we inter our dead but you’re not demonstrating a death wish or an inclination toward witchcraft or anything in that vein just by reading in one. I think it would be good to lay off the movies and CSI-type shows for a while, though.

              1. Rainy*

                OP wants to report her to management for unprofessional behaviour because she likes to read outside in a peaceful location during lunch sometimes.

                Sounds pretty mean-girl to me.

              2. AnonEMoose*

                And what’s wrong with an inclination to witchcraft, anyway? (Says the practicing witch.)

        4. General Ginger*

          I walk in one of my local cemeteries several times a week. It’s gorgeous, peaceful, has excellent paths for walking, and I’ve incidentally learned a lot about the historical demographics of the area by how the sections of the cemetery are organized (time periods, family groups, immigrant communities, etc). I don’t get a long enough lunch break to make it there from the office, but I would, if I did.

          1. Artemesia*

            And in this case, it is a nearby place that has a bench and is quiet and private for reading which she prefers to do on her lunch break. think of it as a park, which is pretty much what it is for the purpose she is using it for.

        5. Jules the Third*

          This is totally a you problem, and you will look weird to your coworkers if you mention it as something notable.

          My mother’s family (US midwest farmers) spent spring / summer Sunday afternoons at the community graveyard, tending the plants, mowing, catching up with the neighbors / extended family. They had picnics, the kids played hide n seek, etc. You may not be the only person uncomfortable with graveyards, but quietly reading on a bench in a graveyard at lunch is firmly in the ‘normal’ range of activities.

          There is, after all, a bench there.

          1. RES ADMIN*

            Traditionally, that was one of the main uses for community cemeteries–as park space for families to gather for picnics, family play time, etc. as well as honoring their loved ones. It is only recently that people have started to view cemeteries in a more restrictive light.

        6. Observer*

          Which doesn’t answer the question.

          Replace “reads at the cemetery” with “like blue skirts” and try again.

          Q – My coworker likes blue skirts. I find it creepy. Is it unprofessional?
          A- Why would it be unprofessional
          Q – I don’t know, it just creeps me out.

          You have the right to be creeped out by anything. But, you do NOT have any standing to assert your personal and unexplained creep-meter as a standard for professional conduct,

          Don’t even think of bringing it to your manager, because if your manager is a reasonable person, it is going to make you look VERY poorly.

          As for saying something to your coworkers – why would you even think of doing this? The only one with standing to talk to he about her lunch break (if she were doing something problematic, which she is not!) is her manager. Going to coworkers is nothing but pot-stirring and gossip mongering. Not a good look for a functional office.

          Lastly, it is absolutely NOT your business what she does during her lunch break or why. Asking her to justify her behavior would be utterly overstepping appropriate boundaries. On the other hand, the question itself gives me a clue as to why she might not want to spend all of her lunches with “everyone from the office.”

        7. Xarcady*

          I live across the street from a cemetery. It’s old–there are graves from about 1730 there, but burials still take place from time to time. Further down the road is a newer section where you can still buy a burial plot. The city is in charge of the upkeep.

          People walk babies in strollers there. Joggers take advantage of the shade from the old trees. There are tours of historical graves, and a Halloween “spooky” tour, as well. They’ve had to ban people from walking dogs in the cemetery, because not everyone was scooping their poop.

          If there were benches there, I’d go sit and read. It’s a surprisingly welcoming spot.

          And taking time out in a cemetery has its literary roots, as witness Anne Shirley in “Anne of the Island.” (Anne of Green Gables books)

      2. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

        It’s only unprofessional if she takes off all her clothing while reading and places a posterboard sign next to her bench announcing where she works. Otherwise, seems fine to me!

    2. Yolo*

      No, this is neither unprofessional nor weird. She is entitled to spend her time elsewhere on her lunch break.

    3. sheila_cpa*

      It might seem creepy to you, but I’d do it if there was one nearby. I love cemeteries. It’s like sitting in a park. It can be very calming. And it’s definitely not to the level of mentioning it to others.

      1. H*

        As someone who has walked my baby in the cemetery by my house every day I could during my maternity leave (not many, unfortunately, thanks Neverending Winter ‘18), I co-sign this wholeheartedly! Anyway, I could go into the role of the cemetery as a peaceful place for the public as designated during the Victorian Cult of Mourning…

        1. Artemesia*

          My daughter lives near an old cemetery with interesting monuments, a lake and island etc etc. When I am baby sitting that is where I am likely to walk with the stroller and baby.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I used to cut through a large cemetery on my way to the mall when I was in college. There was an older section with really cool and interesting tombstones that had small portraits of the decedents set into them. I liked looking at them the same way I like to look at the people in the Victorian cabinet cards I collect and wonder about their lives. It makes me feel like they’re not forgotten; even if I never knew them, at least someone is thinking of them. :)

        2. Anion*

          The town where I used to live had one of the oldest churches in the area–13th century. The graves out back were all more recent, like 18th/19thc., but I used to always take the path through them when I had the chance; some weeks I’d be there almost every day. I loved that short walk. It was beautiful and peaceful, and as a history lover it was always fascinating–it made me feel connected to the history of the place and the town. (One of the grave markers even had the “As I am, so shall you be,” line on it, which delighted me when I saw it because I’d never actually seen it on a real grave.)

      2. Say What, now?*

        It’s like a park but with implied quiet restrictions. So it’s even more ideal for reading. She probably likes to be outside and she may need her space to recharge herself mentally. So I wouldn’t take it as creepy or a slight to you and your coworkers.

        Definitely don’t go to your boss. And I wouldn’t change my thoughts on her.

        1. Solidus Pilcrow*

          All of this. It’s a park with headstones and WITHOUT joggers, frisbee players, kids’ birthday parties, dogs running around…

          It also sounds like this is the closest place with a bench nearby.

    4. MaureenD*

      Please don’t say anything. What your coworkers do on their lunch break is their business. Personally, I love cemeteries. I find them very interested and calming. I don’t really care if people think this is weird because it doesn’t have anything to do with them. Let her enjoy her lunch break however she wants! By all means, feel free to invite her to join your group, but an invitation is not a summons.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        That’s really interesting that you find them calming. I have never known people to find them calming or interesting, or basically anything other than heartbreaking. (Don’t get me wrong, the coworker can do whatever they want on their break so I am not judging her. Just curious).

        Maybe this is a convo for the weekend thread.

        1. rldk*

          There are several older cemeteries in Boston, where I grew up, that were designed as a mix of cemetery and arboretum, with a very park-like structure of paths and ponds and benches. They’re intended to be a calming space as well as a solemn place.

        3. fposte*

          I think it’s pretty common for people to like them; it’s also pretty common for people to find them sad. I also think your current bereavement may be coloring your lens on this a little.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            That’s possible. It may also be a cultural/religious thing. Even before, whenever we drove past the cemetery in our neighborhood I would get chills and say a quick prayer for them.

            This is all just so fascinating and interesting to me.

            1. fposte*

              That’s possible too. My parents would do the “hold your breath when you pass a cemetery” thing with me as a kid but it was mostly a game, and I suspect mostly to shut me up for a bit because I was a mouthy kid :-).

            2. Zennish*

              I’d be fairly certain it’s just someone looking for a quiet, sunny spot to read a book. There is a cemetery near me that that has dedicated walking trails, and refers to itself as a “Cemetery and Arboretum”. People have picnics there…it’s totally not a thing.

            4. MaureenD*

              FWIW, I am an atheist and have no strong cultural ties. I am not afraid of death and am more of a celebrate the life than feel sad about the death type of person. However, what I really find calming about cemeteries is that they are generally quiet, have greenery, provide a learning experience (about history, people, grave markers, etc.), are out in nature (generally), and usually command respect.

            5. Kathleen_A*

              I’m religious, and I enjoy cemeteries, too. Mostly I find them calming and pleasant, and while you do sometimes see something sad there – e.g., a child’s grave, or worse yet a cluster of child graves (as often happens around the flu epidemic of 1918, for example) – it’s not an immediate, heartbreaking sadness, at least not for me. Nothing wrong with a reminder during the middle of the working day of how precious life is, or so it seems to me.

              Mind you, this is all during the day. Cemeteries after dark make me vaguely uneasy (or sometimes really uneasy), which I realize isn’t logical, but there it is.

        4. Bea*

          I had someone ask me to take pictures of old headstones once. I refuse because I find that uncomfortable on a personal level.

          However I can see how people view them as quiet memorial like parks because they’re resting places for so many people.

          1. Penny Lane*

            There is a site called Findagrave where you can request a photo of your loved one’s grave and armies of volunteers will carry it out. This is particularly important for those buried in Jewish cemeteries (where the gravestone will often contain the Hebrew names of both the deceased and his/her father) and for those who are doing research to get into a lineage society such as Mayflower descendants. I, too, find them interesting and calming and I can easily see going to sit in one for some peace and quiet during a lunch break.

            1. fposte*

              I was just watching Zoe Wanamaker’s “Who Do You Think You Are” episode, and when she goes to the Jewish cemetery in the Chicago ‘burbs where her great-grandmother is buried, they’re very keen for her to share her information so that they have family context for the grave. I found that very touching.

            2. Jesca*

              Interested and random note! I am actually a direct descendant from someone off the Mayflower and gravestones are actually really helpful with searching ancestry like this.

              Not everyone has hang-ups about cemeteries either. it just depends on your cultural, etc beliefs. Sure, your manager MAY side with you on being creepy, but does that make it right? No.

          2. LiptonTeaForMe*

            Bea as a genealogist, I take pics of gravestones all the time for people tracing ancestors across the country. Many of us don’t have the funds to just on a plane and do it outselves.

        5. Akcipitrokulo*

          Glasgow Necropolis is regarded as a very beautiful place and a bit of a tourist attraction!

          1. RVA Cat*

            Same with Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond, VA (the Confederate section is a bit creepy, though that has more do to with the living).

              1. Anon Bluenoser*

                We have so, so many cemeteries in Halifax that are essentially tourist attractions, albeit respectful ones. The Titanic cemetery shows up on a lot of tour routes, and the Olde Burying Ground downtown always has art students and ghost tours in and out of there. (link to their website in my name) Heck, there’s an annual tradition to go pour a beer out on Alexander Keith’s grave at Camp Hill cemetery on October 5th.

                Granted none of those (or a handful of others) are active cemeteries — they’ve been closed to new burials for at least a century, in some cases, which means you’re not going to be disturbing any active mourners during Keith’s beer run. But they are absolutely fascinating public spaces.

                1. Bluenoser two*

                  Hi Neighbour!

                  And you’re right, those three are lovely cemeteries to visit for those of us on Team Not Creepy. The Olde Burying Ground is the first in the city so great for seeing old carvings and checking out the demographics of the first generations (Also the real life inspiration for the cemetery in Anne of the Island). Camp Hill has a ton of local luminaries and used to have the only stoplight in the world located inside a cemetery (I’m still sad they moved it). Fairview (aka the Titanic Cemetery) got quite famous when the movie came out because of the grave of “J. Dawson”. It’s also the place to find a lot of victims of the Halifax Explosion of 1917, the largest manmade explosion before the nuclear bomb.

                  Ahem – sorry to ramble. I love histoire and my city!

                2. Anon Bluenoser*

                  @Bluenoser two

                  We’re in the right place for that! There was this great guy from Newfoundland – Rene – who used to wear a black cape and do ghost tours of the downtown, mostly folklore and local history. He was a chef at Henry House for a while, if I recall correctly, but I haven’t seen him around in years.

                  Did you ever do the Citadel ghost tour, by the way? That was an excellent evening. Very creepy. My better half absolutely swears that he heard a non-existent cannon go off while we were there.

                3. Bluenoser two*

                  I’ve done a couple of different ghost tours which were fantastic! On the best of the two, we accidentally got locked in the Olde Burying Ground (which was not quite so uncreepy at that point). I think we scared the passing Dal security guard more than we were scared, though.

                  Every year I mean to do the Citadel Ghost walk and every year it doesn’t quite happen. That being said, I was in there after dark for Nocturne one year and it was absolutely creepy. There was a dog with our group that just sat and stared at this one dark doorway in the outer wall for the whole time we were there. Nobody mentioned it at the time but we all saw it and declared it decidedly creepy afterwards.

                  Also, if you like ghost walks and short road trips, there’s a great one in Lunenburg with all kinds of folklore. They do walking tours in the daytime and break out the spooky stuff after dark.

                4. Anon Bluenoser*

                  The dog story gives me chills. Brr!

                  And we did the Lunenburg tour last summer! We had a great time, and ended up in the cemetery by the old Academy building. That place’s got a great Haunted Mansion look with the scaffolding and the up-lighting in the dark.

                  We like to do a lot of road tripping when the weather’s decent, and always have an eye out for good tours — are there any others you’d recommend?

                5. Bluenoser two*

                  Yup! That’s the tour! I think the stop at the church was the most interesting but the school in the dark was pretty impressive. As for other tours, Charlottetown has a really good one that’s put on by the group who do the roving Parents of Confederation during the day. I also want to check out the Valley Ghost Tours sometime, but their schedule is a little erratic.

              2. Baby Fishmouth*

                Greyfriar’s in Edinburgh is a big attraction! And one of my favourite places. It’s become very popular due to the Harry Potter connection.

        6. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

          There are cemeteries in New Orleans are tourist attractions. We took a tour when we went a couple of years ago. But I wouldn’t find it calming or peaceful to sit in the one were my grandparents are buried – too personal. I think it’s just a matter of personal experience that will determine how you feel about it.

          1. sparty*

            I’ve done 3 tours of cemeteries and find them fascinating. I have been to Boot Hill near Tombstone, the Voodoo lady cemeteries in New Orleans, and Recoleta cemetery in Buenos Aires. They are all fascinating for different reasons. The history of Boot Hill and St Louis cemetery (NO), the epitaphs of tombstones in Boot Hill, seeing the amazing architecture in Recoleta (one is valued for tax purposes at $1MM), the Romeo and Juliet stories of rich families and their various mausoleums.

          2. Lindsay J*

            I did the New Orleans cemetery tour when I went on a visit close to Halloween a couple years ago. I found it fascinating.

          3. Samata*

            I find cemetaries peaceful. I go to the one my grandparents are at when I am and just sit. It makes me feel close to them, but I can 100% see where it would be a personal preference. I wouldn’t judge anyone for liking or disliking the practice – and I definitely wouldn’t let it color my lens of them at work.

          4. stitchinthyme*

            +1 for this – I was about to say the same thing. The cemeteries are one of my favorite things in New Orleans.

            And I can totally see the attraction of hanging out in a nice, quiet, peaceful place to read at lunchtimes. As someone above pointed out, it’s got the beauty of a park, with no kids, dogs, or anyone else running around or making lots of noise.

        7. Susan Sto Helit*

          I think it depends very much on if the cemetery is still in current use, or if it’s a historic place.

          Many European cities, and plenty of them outside Europe as well (I recently visited a couple on Cuba) have cemeteries of historical note which are major tourist attractions. They’re relevant for their architecture, and possibly for noteworthy people buried there. Visitors are expected to be respectful as they’re a resting place for the dead, but they’re not sad places. If anything there’s a gothic grandeur to them, and a great sense of history.

          I can understand how a cemetery for the recently deceased could be a sad place, and it might be considered odd if someone were to choose to spend their lunch break in one, but cemeteries and graveyards in general I find very interesting. I’ve even been in the Paris catacombs, which are stacked with bones. They’re incredible.

            1. RVA Cat*

              Exactly. I wouldn’t find Pere Lachaise creepy – except for the wall where a mass execution happened. It’s places where people died that give me the shivers, not where they’re buried.

            2. Susan Sto Helit*

              Yep, I’ve been to that one!

              Necrópolis Cristóbal Colón was an odd visit, because it’s both a stunning historic cemetery, and also still in use. I discovered this whilst sitting in the chapel…and a coffin was suddenly wheeled in. Accompanied by mourners in shorts and t-shirts.

              I vacated quietly, but everyone else seemed to accept that this was standard procedure!

          2. Antilles*

            I mean, if we’re going to talk about historic places, it’s reasonably common in the US too – Arlington National Cemetery is a stop for many Washington DC tour groups and a lot of Presidential memorials around the country too.

            1. Boo Bradley*

              Green-Wood Cemetery in Brooklyn is the final resting place for a lot of people, along with really interesting monuments and crypts. The Steinway mausoleum was built to hold something like 200 bodies, but there are only 80 or so in there. There are also a cluster of graves for firefighters who died on 9/11.

              I don’t love cemeteries, but my love of history led to do a walking tour through Green-Wood. I spent four hours there and only got through half the tour (I was self-guiding myself with a book). I did occasionally get the shivers like I always do in cemeteries, but it helped that this cemetery was designed like a park, so there were lots of opportunities to walk on paths so I didn’t feel like I was walking over bodies all the time.

              1. Boo Bradley*

                There’s also Hope Cemetery in Barre, Vermont, which is amazing. Barre is known for their granite, and a lot of granite sculptors are buried in that cemetery. The monuments are amazing: an easy chair, a soccer ball, an airplane, etc. etc. I highly recommend it.

            2. AnonEMoose*

              The cemetery near the Gettysburg battlefield is something of a tourist attraction, too. It’s part of the battlefield tour, at least if you book a private guide (which you can do). I found it moving, but not sad or creepy.

            3. Jane of all Trades*

              Yes. The historical Bonaventure cemetery in Savannah, GA has beautiful statutes and is such a beautiful, peaceful place.
              I think there is nothing wrong at all in visiting cemeteries, so long as we make sure not to be disrespectful or disruptive to people who mourn. Its a great way to acknowledge the lives of the people who came before us, and learn about our history.

          4. Who the eff is Hank?*

            I toured the catacombs in Paris last month– it was incredible, and definitely makes you think a lot about the world and your place in it.

        8. BadWolf*

          There is a cemetery near my house that’s wooded and winding roads — it’s very pretty and has markers from many years (new and old). It is pretty to walk in and interesting to read the names, dates, and what people have included on gravestones and the great variety of headstones/markers. One “headstone” is actually bench…so I can only assume that person wanted to people to come and visit and enjoy the pretty place.

            1. fposte*

              I’d never heard of that and I so want one! The inscription can read “Sorry for freezing your butt.”

              2. .*

                I think it’s spike Milligan who’s got

                I told you I was ill

                On his grave stone, which makes me laugh

        9. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

          When I was a kid I used to ride my bike in a cemetery all the time. Lots of different paths, almost no traffic other than the occasional car, and much closer to my house than the nearest park. To this day I also find them calming, peaceful places and am not creeped out by them at all.

          1. Drago Cucina*

            When we lived outside Philadelphia a neighboring cemetery was where everyone took their kids to learn to ride their bikes. We all kept the staff was excellent in letting us know what areas to avoid due to services and everyone was very respectful. My husband, his brothers, and other neighborhood children used to go sledding in the cemetery near their house in Queens, NY. In both situations it was seen as a celebration of life among those remembered.

            I have a fascination with cemeteries because it shares the stories of lives lived.

          2. ronda*

            my co worker once told me her kids used to bring her flowers when they were young.

            She eventually figured out they were getting them from the cemetary :)

        10. Ellery*

          I also find them calming and interesting. I even wrote my master’s thesis on the documentation of gravestones for genealogical uses. Cemeteries/churchyards are very fascinating to me, even on a professional level.

        12. Le Sigh*

          I like cemeteries. I like reading, I like the peace, like a park. I also like feeling like I can stop and say hi to the people I loved, if they’re there (I’m not religious, I know they’re gone, but I like the idea of saying hi and thinking about them). I also like reading the headstones and thinking about the decades and world in which that person lived, what they might have experienced, what the world must have been like — and it’s not always a happy thought, but I like to think about these things. One day we’ll all be dead, there’s not much to be done about it, so I don’t find them creepy.

          To each their own.

        15. LilySparrow*

          When I was a kid, my grandparents’ church had a “homecoming” picnic/potluck every spring. It was a very old place, and the picnic area was on one side of the grounds, with the cemetery on the other side and around the back. Lovely, shady and cool.

          So after we ate and had our faces pinched by all the distant relatives we didn’t remember, the cousins would go wander around the graves and look for the even older relatives. We’d read the inscriptions and generally try to digest in peace.

          It’s hard to be creeped out by anything strongly associated with fried chicken and chocolate cake.

      2. Parenthetically*

        I agree! We have a beautiful historic cemetery in my city, with many famous people interred there, and it’s not only lovely, but really fascinating. When I lived closer, it was a favorite place to walk, and when my now-husband first visited, it was one of the places I wanted to show him.

      3. A.*

        The cemetery near my house has peacocks. The grounds are very beautiful and well maintained with alot of trees. It is very peaceful.

      4. I Didn’t Kill Kenny*

        I’d like to know what telling your boss or coworkers would accomplish?

        Do you want your boss to do something about it? Do you want your colleagues to feel creeped out, as you do?

        You can feel as creeped out as you want to. Keep it to yourself.

    5. Guy Incognito*

      It sounds like she’s going to the nearest bench, outside to read. Regardless, if it’s outside of working hours, (including her lunch hour) you should probably ignore this, and let her read in peace.

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        Agreed, I don’t think reading at a cemetery is any different from reading at a park. She’s probably not going to be disturbed by anyone there.

        Probably. O_0

        1. Guy Incognito*

          By the description, it sounds like it’s mostly a park, anyway. Regardless, it just sounds like she’s trying to get away for a few minutes. Don’t blame her.

      2. Ladylike*

        Agreed! Just a peaceful place to read outside. I can’t blame her one bit. Please don’t make an issue of this, OP. At worst, it will alienate your coworker. At worst, you’ll look petty.

      4. JennyFair*

        Yes, judging someone’s lunch break is a lot like judging someone’s Saturday. It’s unpaid, non-working time, and who they spend it with (or without) and what they spend it doing is not related to their professionalism unless they are literally doing it in the name of their company. I’m not sure it’s the cemetery that is the poster’s issue, so much as feeling like the coworker is slighting the ‘lunch crowd’ in favor of the cemetery. As an introvert, I can totally understand wanting some very quiet time away from the office, and many people also like to keep work and personal lives separate, which is hard to do if you’re sharing a meal together on a daily basis.

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you’re seriously overreacting.

      It sounds like it’s a nice green space and your coworker wants some fresh air on her lunch break.

      You shouldn’t say anything to anyone. It’s really none of your business.

      1. Luna*

        +1. I don’t get the concern here. People are allowed to do whatever they want on their own break. Also, many cemeteries are designed to be nice outdoor spaces to spend time in (lots of tress, flowers, etc.). There is a bench there for a reason, it’s meant to be used!

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          My sister and brother-in-law had their wedding photos taken in one of the local cemeteries.

        2. Salamander*

          Exactly. A long time ago, cemeteries were America’s first parks. I think it was at the turn of the twentieth century when it was at its heyday. It was not uncommon to see people picnicking in cemeteries with their families and people strolling about, enjoying nature in those locations. Now that they are less crowded, a cemetery is a perfectly good place to have some quiet time in nature. There’s nothing weird or odd about it.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This! My mother’s family went back for centuries. When my mother was a little girl, there would be family picnics in the cemetery. This probably worked because of carry-in, carry -out and no one had to clean up a big mess afterwards. It was an annual thing, and everyone tried to get there because it was important to go.

            1. Salamander*

              That sounds really lovely. When my cousin and I were little girls, we would pick flowers and put them on the graves of a tiny family cemetery that was on the property of the farm her family owned. The stones were old, and they didn’t belong to members of our family, but it was just something we did. This was an activity for sunshine-y afternoons, when the foxglove was blooming, and I have really fond memories of those times.

            2. Jules the Third*

              My mom’s family did this multiple times over the summers – 40s / 50s, US midwest, very rural – lots of farmers. It was used as a time to tend the greenery around the graves and as a social thing, after church.

      2. Wendy Darling*

        And maybe some alone time. I’m friendly but I am a hardcore introvert and if I’ve had a morning full of meetings I want nothing more than Lunch Alone Time.

      1. CG*

        This is a really good point! It may be that she is there to be close to the grave of someone she loves, and you will not come out looking great if you bring it up and imply that she’s unprofessional or weird for doing so. (It’s still 100% okay and perfectly professional even if she just goes there because she finds it calming and is looking for some quiet alone time outside. That’s a perfectly normal and reasonable thing.)

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          When it’s nice out, my best friend regularly spends time at the cemetery her grandparents are buried at. So that honestly would be my first thought.

          And even if that wasn’t the case…..it wouldn’t register anything than a slight shrug from me. If that.

      2. mediumofballpoint*

        Seconded. There are so many different cultural norms around death and grieving that this really isn’t worth opening up.

      3. Middle School Teacher*

        I was thinking the same. It’s nice to visit your grandma, even if she’s passed away.

      4. Jane of all Trades*

        That’s what I was thinking too. If she’s going there to be closer to a loved one she lost, it would be a terrible, terrible thing to call her a creep for it.
        LW, I would file this under “that’s not what I would do, but it doesn’t affect me,” and recognize that people have many different habits and preferences. Just because they differ from yours doesn’t make them less valid.

    8. De Minimis*

      I think she’s just looking for a quiet place to read, and the nearest place just happens to be in a cemetery. There’s nothing unprofessional about wanting to take a break from the office at lunchtime.

    9. HR Lady*

      Oh lord no, leave her be. I work in a bit of London city centre where churchyards and graveyards are the only green spaces – unless it’s raining I sit on a bench, read and eat my lunch there. It’s quiet, it’s time away from people and the screen, does my health the world of good. Unless she’s spending her lunch break dancing around gravestones dressed as the Grim Reaper or something there’s nothing weird about this behaviour.

      1. Anion*

        “Hey, Jane? Maybe you could…wait to change into your lunchtime outfit until everyone else is out of the office? Or use one of the restrooms downstairs? It’s…it’s kind of creeping people out, to have you walking through the office in that costume.”

    10. sweetknee*

      She probably just wants a little peace and quiet, which would be easy to find in a cemetery. Occasionally, I want that, and end up driving to a park that is about 1/2 mile from the office and sitting outside there. This is not that much different.

      Sometimes working with people all day long and then eating lunch with them too just gets to be too much.

    11. Meyla*

      If it were a park instead of a cemetery, wouldn’t it be fine? I don’t think it’s really any different. That’s just a convenient and probably quiet place to sit.

      1. Many Names*

        +1

        I know some people feel cemeteries a very singular purposed places but more and more people use them as parks, areas to walk and meditate in and there’s even talk about cemetery tourism for some historic places where this makes sense. Please don’t interfere or say anything. I’m someone who needs my own time at lunch and maybe she tried socializing, she may have even felt pressured to do so (I can relate) but prefers to recharge and take a break alone.

        1. Samata*

          Very much this. I worked somewhere once where people lunched together every day. After about 6 months I realized I actually needed the time to charge, so I went to a bench at a nearby park to read and eat my lunch from then on out. Same thing happening here; there is really no concern to be had.

    12. Foreign Octopus*

      I would say you’re probably thinking about this too much.

      I preferred to take my lunch away from my colleagues because I needed an hour to relax and decompress from talking to too many people. I used to park my car in a little alcove of trees and read with my feet sticking out of the window. Probably unprofessional if anyone saw me but it was also my lunch break. As for the cemetery, I wouldn’t be concerned about that either. It doesn’t sound like she’s doing anything indecorous there. Reading a book peacefully seems fine.

      Depending on the culture of your office (and I suspect that it’s a bit noticeable that she’s doing this because you’ve picked up on it), you might think about inviting her to eat with you once a week and then letting her do her own thing.

      Don’t think too much on this, and certainly don’t judge her for it. Certain people need time to relax during the work day. She sounds like one of them.

    13. Still needs a name*

      Don’t say anything. My husband’s grandpa would always eat lunch in a cemetery when he was out for the day somewhere.

      Some cemeteries are even tourist destinations, if famous enough people are buried there.

    14. A Teacher*

      Its definitely a “you” problem. Cemeteries can be peaceful and she may just want to enjoy a bit of downtime away from the office. Nothing about what she’s doing is unprofessional or odd–your reaction to it honestly throws me off more than anything you described.

    15. Star*

      Why is going somewhere peaceful and reading a book on her lunch break unprofessional? I do this regularly, and it lets me recharge, get some fresh air, and get away from work. I sometimes have lunch with coworkers, but it’s not the same as being able to totally escape.

      I understand why people find cemeteries creepy, and don’t want to spend time there, but this sounds like a pleasant and peaceful one to spend some time.

    16. ExcelJedi*

      It would come off as really weird and invasive to me if a coworker or direct report told me this about someone else’s lunch habit, especially if they thought it was something I should be concerned about. It’s her lunch break, she’s not obligated to spend it with coworkers. Reading in a nearby green space (even a cemetery) sounds very refreshing to me, and I’m sure she thinks the same thing.

      1. DivineMissL*

        I agree – I think I would be creeped out to know that my co-worker was nosy enough to TALK TO MY MANAGER about where I go on my lunch break.

        2. AnonEMoose*

          This. It’s none of your business, OP. She’s just enjoying some time outdoors in a quiet place, with her book. She may be more of an introvert and really need the time to recharge in the middle of the day. Please mind your own business, chalk this up to “different people have different preferences,” go on with your life and let her go on with hers.

        3. Fiennes*

          And if i were the manager, I’d be seriously worried about the judgment of one of my reports…NOT the one reading in a cemetery. The one who thought this was an actual work issue.

      2. Maude Lebowski*

        Me too … it’s pretty near borderline maxi pads in a bag with shampoo and toothpaste in the back of your car territory.

      3. RedRH*

        +1

        What she does on her lunch break is none of your business and you telling your manager about it will make you look nosy and petty that she isn’t eating with you.

    17. foolofgrace*

      I think her lunch break is her own time to do with as she pleases. Frankly, I can relate to wanting to sit in a quiet place and read rather than spend yet another hour with the team I already spend 8 hours a day with. And I don’t think sitting in a cemetery is excessively creepy. If there were a park nearby she’d possibly choose that location instead, but maybe there’s no place else she can go to get a bit of peace and quiet.

    18. Erin*

      Yeah, I think you’re the only one who is going to be creeped out by that. I prefer to read on lunch too, and if there’s a place for her to do outside that sounds perfect. It might be weirder in your office culture for her to read at her desk on lunch.

      Also (and I say this gently), it’s not really your business what she’s doing on lunch, that’s her own time. She’s not obligated to spend it socializing with coworkers. That’s her time to recharge.

      1. SoSo*

        “Also (and I say this gently), it’s not really your business what she’s doing on lunch, that’s her own time. She’s not obligated to spend it socializing with coworkers. That’s her time to recharge.”

        This. As an introvert, it takes a lot of energy to be “on” for my coworkers all day. The lunch hour is a brief reprieve to get away from the office and recharge. It can be difficult to relax with coworkers, even at lunch when you’re off the clock. While I enjoy the occasional social lunch, my favorite thing to do is to grab some takeout or a sandwich, drive to a sunny spot, and read or listen to an audiobook by myself.

        1. The Luidaeg*

          As an introvert who works with the public, there are days when I need that lunch time to re-center and re-charge. Cemeteries historically have been places of quiet reflection, and many were designed to be like parks. Part of why they were designed like this is because families would sometimes get together to remember loved ones, but also spend time with each other. Back in the day (i.e. horses and carriages), being able to gather together would be a day-long affair. There are also cemeteries which are also arboretums (like Bellefontaine in St. Louis). Cave Hill Cemetery in Louisville is huge and designed to be park-like.
          That is beside the main point, though — and what I’m getting at is what SoSo is saying: what one does on one’s lunch break is one’s own business. If people find they re-charge by gathering with other people and talking, great. If someone else needs a quiet moment for themselves, also great. And no one’s business.

          1. Sky Bison*

            Your comment is very on brand for your user name – I imagine you know all about back in the day ;)

          2. K T*

            I absolutely love Cave Hill! I grew up going on picnics there, so I am definitely on the side of cemeteries are a great place to read or relax.

            1. Reba*

              I remember Cave Hill well! Especially when my baby brother was attacked by a goose! Cemeteries are peaceful, huh? ;)

        2. RVA Cat*

          This. I’m getting an “introverts are so weird!” and a whiff of maybe the former head cheerleader shocked that former Goths have jobs….

          1. AnonEMoose*

            You’re not alone. I’ve mentioned before that I’m pretty involved in local SF/Fantasy fandom. And there are people who find that really weird, too. Which has occasionally made things difficult for me at work because I just “didn’t fit in.” And that’s a sucky thing to do to someone. Don’t be that person to your co-worker.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              I literally saw an online Harry Potter fanfic editor job listing today. I was so tempted–however, if I put that on a resume, I might run into an employer like this who thinks it’s too weird.

            1. AnonEMoose*

              I know, right? Next thing you know, people who volunteer with science fiction conventions will have jobs, too!

    19. Temperance*

      That’s neither unprofessional nor creepy. I thought you were going to say something way stranger than this.

      I would honestly rather eat alone/spend time alone than be forced to socialize with colleagues during lunch. Reading on a bench sounds delightful.

      1. A.*

        I like eating alone too. There is so much pressure from my coworker to join them in the lunchroom. While I appreciate them wanting to include me, I really want to spend my lunch time alone or running errands.

    20. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I don’t think it’s strange, unprofessional, or creepy at all. It’s completely normal for people to want to spend their lunch break away from the office. As long as she isn’t toppling headstones on her lunch break, why would you be concerned about why she chooses that nice quiet spot to read a book?

    21. Lois Lane*

      I don’t think it’s weird at all. I like to spend my lunches alone, either reading or catching up on news sites. And I used to walk around a local cemetery and even roller-bladed in it often (it was also an arboretum and permitted). It’s her lunch break. Let her enjoy it how she wants.

    22. Let's Talk About Splett*

      Should I talk to her to know why she does this ?

      Nope, if she wanted you to know why she would have volunteered that info

      Isn’t it a bit unprofessional ?

      No. She’s at lunch

      What if someone else from the office saw her ?

      That’s up to her to manage, not you.

      Am I the only one to be creeped out by her behaviour ?

      Probably? If she were trying to pressure you to join her, that’d be another thing, otherwise it’s not your business

    23. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I feel like this could possibly be a joke, but in case it’s not: This is not really your business at all, and if you reported it to a manager, it would reflect oddly on you! There’s nothing here that your office needs to be concerned about.

      1. Triplestep*

        I think this whenever a LW characterizes something as “unprofessional” when it is so clearly not.

        1. LouiseM*

          +1. If we can believe that someone reported their coworker for having maxi pads in their car, I don’t see why we shouldn’t believe that someone thinks it’s unprofessional to do something that a great many people would consider odd or creepy. Although of course I agree with the commenters that this OP should MYOB and would look ridiculous if she brought this up.

          1. Triplestep*

            I think I wasn’t clear. When I said “I think this whenever …” I was referring to this being a joke.

            1. LouiseM*

              No, you were clear. I also think this was a joke. But my point was that we hear so many outlandish letters on this site, some of which I personally suspect are fake, that this does not seem more obviously fake to me than some others.

              1. Jesca*

                And I find it weird that there is a subset here who are always bringing up the validity of truth about a letter, even though many others here have stated over and over that similar things have happened in their work place. Therefore, even if it is “not reeeeeaaaaallll” it still happens. I work with at least three people right now who would do what this LW is asking permission to do here. A lot more people than we all realize actually have very little self awareness and are full of judgement on sooooo many levels.

                1. Triplestep*

                  I rarely see people speculating on whether or not a post is real … I can think of one time. I felt free to comment about it today because Alison did. Otherwise it’s pretty much taboo around here and I don’t want to get dogpiled. But if someone wants to get a comment storm going, all they need to do is submit a post deeming something unprofessional when it’s not, talk about feminine products or women-centered topics like nursing, or pose as a manager baffled by a staffers behavior which turns out to be entirely reasonable. Or some combination of the above.

      2. Drago Cucina*

        Yes, if someone reported that to me I would, 1. Roll my eyes so hard that she would probably call 911; 2. Think the person was weirdly invasive.

    24. Snark*

      Unless there’s a leafy, treed park that’s quiet and pleasant closer than 100 meters from the office, I don’t think she’s weird. Presumably, it’s quiet, sunny, there’s vegetation, and she’s not inside. In particular, she’s definitely not weird for declining to eat with you, because some of us humans are introverts and we need some time not talking to people and in a pleasant, peaceful place to recharge our batteries. If a cemetery meets that need, it’s as good a place as any. You don’t mention her trying to raise zombies or dancing about the graves, so.

      What I do frankly think is very weird is your impulse to bring up a non-work and non-performance related issue with her manager, and your impulse to ask her why she’s doing it is only slightly less so. You can be creeped out if you want, but that’s 100% your problem, to solve on your own and without demanding anything of her.

      1. Samata*

        If their building was the only structure smack in the middle of a leafy treed park that’s quiet and pleasant the co-worker isn’t weird.

      2. stitchinthyme*

        ” In particular, she’s definitely not weird for declining to eat with you, because some of us humans are introverts and we need some time not talking to people and in a pleasant, peaceful place to recharge our batteries.”

        Yes! I don’t often eat lunch in the kitchen with my coworkers, both because I’m an introvert and because I have hearing issues — I find it really hard to make out what anyone is saying to me when there’s a lot of background noise (and our kitchen does get pretty noisy at lunchtime).

        That said, I do try to eat there every once in a while so my coworkers don’t forget I’m here or think I hate them all. (I only hate some of them. ;-) )

    26. Work Wardrobe*

      File that under “None Of Your Business.”

      Seriously, why is it any of your concern?

      1. Work Wardrobe*

        And… why are cemeteries creepy? They’re resting places. Usually beautiful and full of flowers and trees. And people’s loved ones.

        My SO is big into heritage and we visit cemeteries every summer to photograph headstones of his forebears. Cemeteries are for the living to celebrate and remember and honor.

          1. Camellia*

            The huge cemetery for our town was just up the hill from my childhood home and it was our (only) playground. It never occurred to me that other people might find that creepy.

            1. Brandy*

              Ive always said I wouldn’t mind living next to a cemetery. You know it the best neighbors. Always quiet and peaceful.

              1. Mobuy*

                I live across the street from a small cemetery, and I love it. So do my kids. My daughter, at age five, once said, “Mom, there are people in our cemetery!” I thought it was hilarious.

                The only busy times are Memorial Day and the 4th of July (they have a little ceremony there). Also, of course, the occasional funeral. Pretty good deal, really!

                1. LibraryGryffon*

                  Our first backyard when we moved to Galway shared a fence with a retired cemetary. We liked quiet neighbors.

                  Where I live now there is a cemetery across from my PT’s office which has a ton of Pokestops and gyms. When I’ve gone there I’ve read many headstones, admired the parklike layout, and seen others doing the same (or jogging, or walking their dog, or eating, or …).

              2. Snark*

                Until it’s Halloween. “Dammit, great-great-great Aunt Gertrude, keep it down over there!”

        2. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Well, it really doesn’t matter why the OP feels that way. There’s nothing wrong with that. But they don’t get to expect others to feel that way, or expect there to be work repercussions because someone else has a different opinion or way of doing things, since it has zero impact on them (at least, with respect to work product and productivity, which are the only relevant measures here).

          1. LouiseM*

            Yeah, this seems pretty obvious to me…it’s very odd to me how many people on this thread are surprised that others find cemeteries creepy! I mean, I don’t find it creepy that someone else wants to chill out in one for fun, but they are the resting places of dead people. It’s not that much of a stretch to associate them primarily with death and mourning.

        4. Jules the Third*

          So, some people find them creepy. That’s who they are and how they are. Let’s not judge their feelings just because ours are different.

          (says the woman to spends time reading gravestones with her mom fairly regularly…)

        5. Boo Bradley*

          I get creeped out by walking over graves. I’m okay with cemeteries if they have nice paths, but there are a lot of cemeteries where graves are just crammed next to each other, and you have to basically walk over people’s graves to get the grave of your loved one. It’s not that believe in zombies or anything, but it just makes me shiver to think about walking over human remains.

    27. Emily S.*

      I don’t see anything odd about this. It’s her lunch break, and she can do what she wants. There was a period in the past when I used to go to a nearby cemetery for a peaceful lunch. I liked the quiet tranquility.

    28. Aaaaaaanon.*

      You’ve said yourself that she does a good job and she’s friendly. She’s going to a cemetery to read on a bench, not for a lunch time necrophilia break. Even if this creeps you out, it has no bearing whatsoever on her professionalism and you’d be well advised to not mention anything about it.

      If I were your manager and you mentioned this to me, and your concern wasn’t clearly about whether your new colleague feels included enough to eat lunch with the rest of your team…TBH, I’d be more than a little concerned about your professionalism and boundaries.

      2. EyreOntheSideofCaution*

        If the co-worker were reading “A Rose for Miss Emily” in her collection of short stories by William Faulkner while she was in the cemetery I might wonder about her, but I’d still keep my own counsel…

    29. Bea*

      This seems like you have an uncomfortable feeling towards cemeteries. I spend a lot of time in one specific one because my best friend is there. So if I worked next to there, I would probably do the similar thing. It’s probably peaceful to her.

      Unless she’s perching on headstones and making a ruckus, she’s not doing anything wrong.

    30. Totally Minnie*

      There are a lot of reasons your coworker could be spending her lunch break at the cemetery. If it’s closer to the office than the nearest park, it might just be a convenient way for her to get away from the office for a little fresh air. And cemeteries tend to be quiet places, so if she’s feeling stressed out from work, she may find it calming.

      Some people get weird/creepy/scary vibes from cemeteries, but others don’t. I’d just put this one in the “people have different preferences” category and move on.

    31. Lady Jay*

      As a confirmed introvert, I love cemeteries! They’re beautiful and green and quiet, a perfect place to read a book and eat lunch. That would give me energy for the second half of the day.

      Also! Especially if you’re in the US, we have a dearth of green spaces; a cemetery is like a little park. Plus so many cemeteries have interesting history.

    32. MuseumChick*

      This…

      1) Isn’t effect your work, her work, or the business at all. 2) Is on her own personal time (lunch) and 3) Is not something she is making a Thing out of (she isn’t talking about it at all it seems, isn’t trying to get people to come with her, etc)

      She found a quiet bench to read on. That is all. Honestly, it’s more concerning to me that you would think something needs to be said or done about this.

    33. The Other Dawn*

      What she does on her lunch break is her business and no one else’s. Unless she’s doing something illegal or unethical that would hurt the business, of course. Cemeteries are very peaceful and maybe she wants to have a nice quite break. I’ve gone walking in cemeteries for exactly that reason. Nothing unprofessional about it.

      As to why she doesn’t eat with everyone anymore, she probably only did that in the beginning as a way of getting to know everyone and to not have people say she’s antisocial or something similar.

      1. essEss*

        Or she found her coworkers to be very judgmental and controlling and decided she needed a break away from them during the day to keep from getting too stressed out.

        1. RVA Cat*

          Bingo!
          There are so many other things she could be doing on her lunch break that could actually be an issue at work. I mean, today is 4/20 after all….

    34. Akcipitrokulo*

      Not unprofessional, not creepy, not unfriendly. She likes spending spare time in quiet place reading. It’s all good!

    35. Russian in Texas*

      There is nothing unprofessional in not eating lunch with one’s coworkers. To the contrary. Lunch is my time NOT to socialize.

    36. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Some people are creeped out by graveyards. Others are not. Clearly, you and your coworker are on opposite sides of that fence. She’s probably sitting there because it’s nice and peaceful, nearby, and she enjoys being outside for a bit. Some people need a bit of a break from their coworkers during the day.

      Let this go. Nothing wrong it with, and all it does is demonstrate an underlying difference in how you regard graveyards. If you tried to bring it up, others are more likely to wonder what’s wrong with you.

    37. Ell the Bell*

      So where I live, there is a Victorian cemetery where they encourage people to come hang out and spend time. Some grave stones are actually tables and chairs for people to eat at. The cemetery was designed in a time when there were few public parks, so people would literally use the cemetery as their local park.

      They still host weddings and parties, run tours, have special events like yoga and fun runs, exercise groups meet there, people picnic with their families. The group that maintains the cemetery wants it to be a place to celebrate life, not to fear the dead. This was the original intent of the cemetery and they still honor that today.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        That is so freaking cool.

        There are memorial benches in Hampstead Heath, a huge park in North London. I sat on one while I was visiting and took a picture of it and the lovely view it overlooked. A couple of years after that trip, a friend of the person the bench was dedicated to commented about her on my post. It personalized things in a very moving way. It was almost as if she were reaching out to say hi. <3

    38. Tasslehoff Burrfoot (formerly Buffy Summers)*

      I love cemeteries. They’re so peaceful. I can see me doing this. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with your coworker going there on her lunch break and it shouldn’t creep you out.

    39. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      There’s a bench in the cemetery because they expect people to come and sit on it. It’s not weird. It’s a quiet place for her to recharge during lunch.

    40. Scubacat*

      This isn’t something to report at work. If you’re weirded out by cemeteries, that’s pretty normal. What is also normal is visiting a cemetery to enjoy nature. The local cemeteries in my city are known for their horticulture and well kept walking paths.

    41. lisalee*

      You know, in Victorian times, cemeteries were often the only green spaces in urban areas. So they were often places where families picnicked, children played, and young couples took walks to court! Gravestones were often extremely elaborate and artistic for visitors to enjoy. There is a long history of people enjoying cemeteries as recreational areas. Our discomfort with the dead is fairly new.

      1. Gypsy, Acid Queen*

        Thank you! I was about to come into this thread to note that in the Victorian era, cemeteries were created and designed to be parks enjoyed by the public.

      2. Iris Eyes*

        True but there is also a long long history of the resting places of the dead being considered taboo.

        I do think that some of our discomfort with death and dying at large is our removal from it. We don’t see people dying, they do that behind closed doors in hospitals. We barely see funerals, they usually erect a tent. We don’t often see animals even in a state of death (the three seconds passing by road kill in your car are fundamentally different than processing a carcass for food). I know people who have made it into their thirties without ever once having attended a funeral or having seen a dead person in person.

    42. bohtie*

      I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but cemeteries used to be popular gathering places. tourist attractions, if you will. It’s no different than if she went to a park to read. This sounds like a you problem, and for the love of god don’t rope your boss into this nonsense.

      signed,
      somebody who doesn’t want to eat with my coworkers because they’re judgy and also I have an eating disorder

    43. Q*

      It sounds to me like she just needs a little quiet and alone time. I find cemetery’s peaceful and would not be creeped out at all. You’re entitled to feel weird about it but I wouldn’t recommend telling others. They might decide you are weird for being weird out.

    44. Decima Dewey*

      She’s probably an introvert and wants to use her lunch break to recharge. Without having to answer a lot of questions about what she’s reading, how she likes it, has she ever read….

    45. Adele*

      Mind your own business. It creeps you out but it probably wouldn’t creep most people out. I regularly take walks in the lovely, historic cemeteries near me because they are peaceful and lovely and I have been known to sit and rest on a bench therein. I have no loved one buried there. In fact, starting in the 19th century, cemeteries were designed to be park-like settings and were accepted destinations for outings and picnics.

      I think if you were to tell your co-workers or manager about this apparently-to-you deviant behavior, they would think you were nuts and a busybody.

    46. Shrunken Hippo*

      As an introvert who needs alone time to recharge throughout the day I have also gone to a cemetery to read. They are quiet and well kept which makes them an ideal place to relax and have a peaceful moment to yourself. She may just want or need this time to feel relaxed for the rest of the day. You are allowed to feel creeped out by it, but I would suggest you just think of it like she goes to a park to read. It’s not that she’s trying to avoid coworkers, and she’s not trying to be morbid, she just wants to read in peace. This is definitely a you problem and talking to anyone at work about it will make you seem like the weird one or at least a drama queen.

    47. Still Looking*

      She probably goes there because it’s quiet and she can read without being interrupted. Some people like to go off and recharge on their breaks. She just sounds like an introvert type who enjoys her brief reading time alone or maybe her book is so good she gets back to it every chance she can.

    48. Kms1025*

      About the park like cemetery setting. I honestly see nothing wrong with this coworker taking her break there. It sounds like she just needs a break from the “noise” of a busy day, and this is close by. I don’t find it weird at all. But maybe I am weird =^.^=

    49. Schnoodle*

      I wished I had a cemetery 100m from here I could go read at. That sounds like a lovely lunch.

    50. JustAGirlTryingToMakeIt*

      No, don’t mention it. It’s not really your place to do so as it isn’t effecting you or your colleagues. Perhaps she has a relative buried there and its comforting for her to visit when she can on lunch? My grandma passed a few weeks ago, and all of my family is buried in the local cemetery a few blocks from work. I went to see her during lunch just to have a quiet moment away and visit with her. I would just let this one go. You never know what someone is going through.

    51. PB*

      Lots of people find cemeteries relaxing. They’re quiet, green, and well maintained. It may not be your cup of tea, but there’s nothing wrong with it. Don’t report it.

    52. Night Cheese*

      I grew up in a historically significant area with many gorgeous, historical cemeteries, and I spent a lot of time in one of them reading. I don’t find this weird at all.

    53. soupmonger*

      If someone I worked with told me that my habit of reading outdoors in a local space was weird, creepy and unprofessional, I’d take a pretty dim view of that persons opinion. This is a you issue, not your co-workers. She likes a bit of alone time, in peace and quiet – leave her alone to enjoy it!

    54. WillyNilly*

      I just this past weekend took my kids (4yrs old) to a children’s concert workshop in a cemetary. A still active one at that. Afterwards we walked around and my kids delighted in righting tipped over flowers & plants, and checking out, respectfully, the items and photos left on graves.
      It was a beautiful place to visit.

    55. Candy*

      Sitting outside in a quiet, treed place with a book and a lunch sounds like an incredibly normal, non-creepy thing to do on one’s lunch break

      1. Candy*

        And if she’s only started eating outside instead of with the group lately it’s probably due the weather getting warmer, or because she’s now been at the job long enough that she knows which parks or gyms are nearby that she can pop out to on her break. But, again, this is far outside of creepy

    56. a1*

      Are you more upset about the fact that she used to be more social at lunch and now is not, or that she reads in the cemetery?

    57. Tuxedo Cat*

      You shouldn’t say anything. She’s not harming anyone.

      I don’t understand it myself, but people do like to go to cemeteries to read. The explanation someone gave me was that they’re quiet and look nice.

    58. Not So NewReader*

      Like you, I used to think cemeteries were pretty creepy. I now blame that on too many horror flicks.
      Time has been kind. Working on the family tree meant going through cemeteries, this changed my perspective. I learned a few things about “cemetery art” and I was amazed by the info they used to put on old stones.
      More currently, I kind of think I know as many dead people as I do living people, which changes my thinking even more. We honor the people who went before us by marking their final resting spot. If we ever stop doing that, this world could be come a very cold and viscous place.

      My vote is to leave her alone. If you push this you could find out this is her prayer time or she is visiting someone dear or any other number of explanations that could leave you feeling you were sorry you asked.

    59. AngelicGamer, aka the Visually Impaired Peep*

      Don’t say anything. I’m wondering if she might be from New Orleans, where it’s quite normal to tour cemeteries and other things. This sounds like something I would do too. I want to be out of the office but not talk to anyone and there’s a nice cemetery with benches? Score, going there and taking my book.

    60. Sky Bison*

      You’ve got some good comments here already and I think a little self-reflection would be excellent but I also wanted to point out there’s a chance she has a relative buried there and she likes going on her lunch break to sit with them. I will sometimes go to my families graves and sit there and talk to them and read for a while. Not because I think they can hear me, but because I miss them and this makes me miss them less.

      But even if she doesn’t have anyone buried there, it’s pretty normal. The cemetery near where I live often has people picnicking in it (I’ve done it! It’s nice!) and recently hosted an easter egg hunt.

      You might also benefit from reading a little bit more about the death industry! It can change the way we perceive these spaces. Often times we feel creeped out by things like open caskets and cemeteries because death is scary! So we try and distance ourselves from it. I recommend the book Smoke Gets in Your Eyes by Caitlin Doughty. It talks about her experience as a mortician and going through mortuary school. If you’ve recently suffered from a fetal loss though there is a chapter that goes in detail about that, just so you’re aware, I’d recommend skipping it if that’s the case.

    61. Jadelyn*

      This is a perfect example illustrating the “Sometimes your feelings about something are your own problem to deal with” concept.

      You are allowed to find it weird or creepy (and I am allowed to find it weird and intrusive that you feel that way about such an innocuous habit). You do not need to then turn around and make your feelings about her personal, off-the-clock habits anyone else’s problem, whether hers, your manager’s or your coworker’s.

      And for the record, “saying something to the other coworkers” about something harmless and personal like this is just straight-up, flat out gossip. Which is never a good look for anyone.

      1. Observer*

        And for the record, “saying something to the other coworkers” about something harmless and personal like this is just straight-up, flat out gossip. Which is never a good look for anyone.

        So much this. It also tends to lead to a pretty toxic environment.

    62. Bacon Pancakes*

      It is/was pretty common in various parts of the US for cemeteries to be considered more of a quiet park than creeps-ville central. I would chalk this up to regional/generational differences and move on.

    63. elwm73*

      You are the only one creeped out by this.
      Historically, cemeteries were family or town gathering places for picnics and reunions-kill two birds with one stone so to speak. Some have meditation spaces and gardens.
      I wish I was close enough to go have lunch at Blandford Cemetery like I used to-used to tell my boss I had lunch with Friends. I did-sort of-the Friend family plot next to the church had a lovely shaded bench.

    64. Margo the Destroyer*

      I wouldn’t say anything. This is her lunch break and she can do what she likes. We have a cemetery here where I live thats more like a big park, people go there to run, take in the flowers etc. It isn’t creepy at all to be doing things there.

    65. Starbuck*

      Cemeteries can be lovely, especially this time of year. It can be a nice place to get some quiet outdoor time if there isn’t a park nearby (and maybe the park is a playground and full of loud children or what have you). Coworker is doing a pretty normal thing here.

    66. Loves Libraries*

      Us introverts need our peace and quiet especially if your office is noisy. I do think that it might be good for her to occasionally go with the gang to lunch.

    67. Observer*

      I doubt you were expecting this level of response.

      It’s worth noting something. You have gotten a TON of responses from people showing that your reaction is certainly far from universal. That may overshadow the other – and in my opinion – much more important point that people were making.

      That is: This is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. There is absolutely NOTHING you can appropriately do about this. Nor is there any reason to. Going to coworkers is just gossip. Going to her is boundary crossing as all get out. And going to her manager makes me think of first grade tattle-tales, but worse, because there aren’t even any “rules” involved here.

      1. Basia, also a Fed*

        This. Most of the comments are about whether or not cemeteries are creepy. It doesn’t really matter, because it’s none of your business. The fact that you want to gossip to your co-workers for the purpose of making her look weird (which is bullying) or go to her supervisor, for what purpose I’m not sure, makes you look shallow and petty.

        I love this blog and have learned so many things from it, but I’ve been discouraged by how many letters there are from or about people who want to do things just for the purpose of stirring things up, making life difficult for someone, or hurting someone. I guess I’m lucky I’ve never worked anywhere with so much pettiness.

    68. Lucky*

      I think you need to mind your own business and do lunch however it works for you. She probably just wants some quiet and getting away. There is nothing creepy about it. That’s your own take on it. You could go and say something, and in the process embarrass yourself.
      This is really one of those cases where this is YOUR issue.

    69. A.*

      Why do you care? How does this affect your life? I think it will be way more unprofessional for you to gossip about where your coworker is eating her lunch. I am actually not surprised she does not want to eat lunch with you anymore. You are coming across like a serious busy body. Mind your business.

    71. Anony McAnonface*

      This is very normal. Many cemeteries double as quiet parks. People walk and jog and sit quietly there. It’s not weird, it sounds like she’d just rather have quiet time than eat with coworkers, which is perfectly fine.

      What is weird is that my jr high didn’t have somewhere for us to go for our break so they just send us all out to run around the next door church yard, which was also a graveyard. Disrespectful af in retrospect. At the time it seemed normal to us.

    72. Leela*

      Oh please don’t say anything to your coworkers and certainly not her manager! At best (for you, at worst for her), you risk really putting her on the spot and having everyone start thinking things about her based on nothing, really. At worst (for you, best for her) you come off looking like you really overthink things and your colleagues will start to wonder what you’re guessing about them!

    73. Menacia*

      It’s *not* a big deal, so it should *not* creep you out. She’s on her own time, doing what she wants. I too used to eat lunch with my coworkers, but then I decided it was better for me to go off and do my own thing for lunch. Again, it’s no big deal, and no one bats an eye about it either.

    75. Graveyard Lunch Guy*

      I do this! There’s a huge, lovely cemetery near my office. On nice days when I feel like taking a short walk at lunch, I will bring my lunch with me and sit on a bench overlooking the pond, play on my phone, eat my sandwich, and just have a nice, quiet lunch break a couple blocks away from my coworkers. Often, there are other people doing the same. There was a young couple making out on my usual bench once, so I sat in the grass a hundred feet away or so.

      The only difference is that my coworkers don’t eat lunch together usually, but even if we did, I don’t think I would feel obligated to skip my private time for that.

    76. Actually Its You*

      Dear AAM,

      My obnoxious co-worker won’t let me read alone in peace and instead thinks that I should spent every moment that I’m not at my desk with her. Frankly I’m tired of hearing about how many instagram followers she has and would just like to read my novel. What should I do?

    77. Anonymous5*

      Perhaps this has already been said but picnicking in cemeteries was common in Victorian times.

      Also, very much already said but this is not even remotely a problem. It’s barely creepy. This is a you problem, not her problem.

    78. Chaordic One*

      It’s not morbid or inappropriate. Personally, I feel sad when I visit cemeteries. Almost to the point of depression. (Boundary problems.) It’s just something about the loss of life. If I know the deceased, I probably miss them. Even when I don’t know them it makes me sad. Walking by the grave stones and seeing the birth dates and death dates makes me wonder about the people and their lives. So many people die young and I wonder about what injury or illness caused their death. On the one hand, there are people who had long lives and those don’t bother me so much. I hope they were happy lives. OTOH, I think the saddest place of all is the section for babies.

      I keep reimagining the Thornton Wilder play, “Our Town,” in my head.

    79. aes_sidhe*

      Is she molesting the bodies when she’s out there? If not, it’s none of your business and certainly nothing to report to a manager.

      I get that some people are creeped out by cemeteries, but she’s not doing anything wrong at all on her lunch break. She gets to go where she wants/do what she wants so long as she’s back in time.

    80. Oxford Coma*

      Report her if:

      –The book she’s taking to lunch is “Graverobbing For Dummies”
      –She comes back from lunch looking significantly younger (like, years)

      Otherwise, MYOB.

      2. Wintermute*

        you just gave me an AMAZING idea (based on the “looking younger” part)

        Imagine an AAM from a dark urban fantasy type world where paranatural creatures (all the stuff that chased Abbott and Costello: vampires, werewolves, mummies, ghosts, you know) were real and “out of the coffin” so to speak?

        That would be an amazing fictional blog.

        Or an AAM from a cyberpunk dystopia: “I had to have an employee assassinated, is it weird to go to the funeral?” “How necessary are neural interface plugs to get a job, really?” “My employer implied that my lack of memory implants is keeping me from getting promoted, but I’ve worked hard on my natural skillset! how can I convince him time spent with a textbook is just as valid as a few thousand Eurodollars worth of silicon?”

    81. Grizzzzzelda*

      Seems a lot more professional than what I do! And that actually sounds really relaxing. A good way to be outside, alone, and in a quiet place.

      I used to eat lunch with coworkers. Then I realized how much better I like being alone for an hour each day. I’d still be bothered if I took my lunch in my office, so now I just sit in my car. Usually I read, but on some days, especially warm weather days, I fall asleep.

      I’d much rather be seen reading in a cemetery than I would snoozing in my car, probably drooling half the time! (I’ll be damned if I give up my occasional car naps though!).

      Seems like this is something that just makes you uncomfortable. Why do you think that is? Is it that cemeteries remind you of death? Are you uncomfortable at the thought of death and your own mortality? Are you feeling rejected that she would rather sit in a cemetery than with you (no matter how I type this it sounds snotty to me, but I can seem to reword it in a way that doesn’t sound snotty, so just know that is not my intent!)?

    82. Engineer Woman*

      I’m so glad OP wrote in to ask her questions. So much better to obtain hundreds of good opinions than go ahead and do something that shouldn’t be done in the overwhelming majority of views.

      Leave your co-worker alone. Reading in a cemetery during her lunchtime is her own business and if the cemetery had a nice park-like atmosphere, it sounds really lovely and not creepy at all. OP is entitled to her opinion that it is creepy but as it isn’t to the general public (aka majority of people), don’t say anything to anyone about it.

      For example: I think dolls are creepy. Maybe it’s those Chucky movies from long ago. I don’t express this to every parent whose child who I see with doll as in: “that’s so creepy. stop your child from touching that.”

      1. Observer*

        I’m so glad OP wrote in to ask her questions. So much better to obtain hundreds of good opinions than go ahead and do something that shouldn’t be done in the overwhelming majority of views.

        Good point!

    83. Freelance Everything*

      First of all, no you definitely shouldn’t say anything to anybody about this. This is not any kind of deal.

      My second point is on a slight tangent and is not meant to be aggressive or accusatory so please bear that in mind when reading it:

      – Your preoccupation with her behavior to the point of seriously considering mentioning it to coworkers or even her manager is concerning. I understand that this behavior is striking you as particularly ‘weird’ because it’s obviously not something you would consider doing. And I understand the compulsion to discuss things you find incredulous.

      But nevertheless, I wonder if it’s something you should examine more closely; do you have habit of being judgmental or ‘dramatic’ when faced with behavior from other people that is at odds with yours, despite that behavior being harmless? Are you quite vocal and negative about that ‘strange-to-you’ behavior with colleagues?
      A couple of other commenters have mentioned that this behavior puts you at risk of positioning yourself as ‘Office Gossip’, and I’m sure that’s not the reputation you’ve been trying to cultivate.

    85. StressedOutToTheMax*

      Serious introvert with ADD here. I work in a very small office – think 7 people if all FT and PT are in. Some of my coworkers spend more time in gossip than work, sigh…

      I also have a lot of stress both personally and professionally right now. I’m privy to information that some of my coworkers are not aware of that could affect the future of the company. Anyways, there are days where I disappear for lunch to just get recharging time. I read in restaurants because its still winter here (thank you Michigan!) but can be found in my car in a parking lot at said church Frankly the gossipy drama is too much even one day a week when I’m stressed. Leave the coworker alone for both your sakes – she’s just recharging in the first quiet place she found.

    86. Quinalla*

      I know some find cemeteries creepy, so nothing wrong with your initial reaction, but to me this sounds like a nice quiet place to read. Whenever I can, I find a place to read during part of my lunch break, sometimes it is at a restaurant I am eating, sometimes it is wherever I can find outside downtown that is nice when the weather is agreeable. If I had a cemetery nearby, I’d definitely go read there.

      There also may be some extrovert/introvert misunderstanding going on here too. As one who heavily leans introvert, my extrovert buddies just don’t get while my lunchtime reading is so important to me. Its a great recharge for my energy and I love to read and if I also get some outside time, wow, its perfect! Not sure if you (and maybe your office?) lean more extroverted, but it struck me as likely this might make it seem weirder to you.

    88. Competent Commenter*

      In my town there are a ton of PokeStops in the only cemetery, which is around the corner from me. Lots of young adults wandering through, looking at their phones and playing Pokemon Go. I guess some of the larger monuments are the stops.

      My 10-year-old plays Pokemon Go with my husband on my husband’s phone. If he gets to play on our drive home, he’s frequently heard saying “Can’t we got to the cemetery? There’s a [whatever it’s called] that we can catch! Pleeeeeease!”

      Also, while I don’t personally understand why it bothers the OP that her coworker reads in a cemetery, I had a coworker who would cross the street to the other side when we were walking to a nearby restaurant for lunch and had to pass a mortuary. So I guess this kind of thing really bothers some people.

    89. sange*

      Yes, unfortunately you are the only one creeped out by her behavior! It sounds like a nice break from the office, and a good opportunity to go outside. Who wants to eat lunch with their colleagues every day?

    90. The Rat-Catcher*

      I can’t really think of a reason that you should say something to anyone else working there. I would not ask her why she reads there, for a lot of reasons, but one because the answer might be really emotional. I don’t think I would even ask that of a very close friend. You may not be the only one that is creeped out, but to ask other people and talk about it with them, I think, would be unnecessary. Nor am I seeing anything inherently unprofessional. Unless you have further insight than what you’ve already stated, I vote for leaving it alone.

    91. another STEM programmer*

      Nah, I wouldn’t. She probably just likes the quiet vibe of the area. I don’t think its unprofessional at all of her.

    92. Jill*

      Yes you’re the only one with a problem about this. What she does on her lunch hour is her own business. Period. If you complain to anyone else about this you will look like a creep, not her. Grow up.

    93. WFH Lurker*

      I grew up with a large cemetery right behind our house. It was pretty, quiet and peaceful. It wasn’t morbid. One wonders if she goes to read there because she knows that it’s quiet, peaceful and no one will disturb her.

    95. MissDisplaced*

      Sounds to me as though your coworker just likes to get outside and the cemetery provides a quiet and peaceful place to sit outdoors that is off of a city street and/or away from busy restaurants, cafes, etc. As she is sitting on a provided bench, this is perfectly NORMAL. It’s probably also a lovely spot to sit.
      Now, if she’s still doing this is 10 degree weather… it might be a little weird.

      Don’t say anything. It’s not your business.

    96. Mara*

      There is no way to do this without severely damaging your own credibility and professionalism. Either co-workers won’t care or even worse they will think you are being mean gossiping about someone you have decided is “weird”.

      If you talk to management it shows you have a lack of appropriate boundaries as long as she isn’t committing crimes or badly damaging the companies image it doesn’t matter what she does at lunch (this doesn’t count as damaging the company image even if you have uniforms that identify where you work and it doesn’t sound like you do).

      If you tell your manager and management does stop her going (which they won’t if they are sane professionals) if coworker is going there simply as it is a quiet place to read you look like a busy body.

      Further more if it turns out a spouse/parent/sibling/child is buried there and she goes to feel close to them you will look like a heartless bully.

      You probably aren’t a bad person but I think this is more about the fact she doesn’t eat lunch with you anymore. Maybe your a naturally extroverted person (nothing wrong with that) who doesn’t understand why she wants some quiet time at lunch. Some people simply like quiet time in the middle of the day.

      I am introverted and was on the other side of something similar to this. I ate lunch with coworkers at first to get to know them then I withdrew to read at lunch. It didn’t mean I suddenly disliked everyone I just needed time to recharge. Most people didn’t care but one coworker was very insistent and thought I suddenly hated her. I didn’t…at first. But given how much she harangued me about it I started to really dislike her when previously I thought of her as a perfectly nice person and potential friend. I think there are often misunderstandings between introverts and extroverts and extroverts think introverts dislike them when they don’t they just want to be around them (or anyone) too much.

      And what kind of outcome do you want? Do you just want her to stop going to the cemetery? If she does because she feels mocked or the manager forces her (which a sane one will not) it may damage your professional relationship. Even then the manager can’t force her to eat lunch with you and if she knows you essentially tattled on her for what is a normal activity you will likely damage your working relationship. You could perhaps ask in a non-judgemental way but if she says a loved one is buried there it will be awkward at best and you’ll look insensitive (and nosy) at worse. And its hard to ask without looking like a busy body.

    97. nep*

      I’m seeing this late and I’ve not read all the other comments — Just to say, I will sometimes go out of my way to drive to a cemetery a couple towns over that has some of the grandest, most beautiful trees I’ve ever seen. I see nothing the slightest bit odd about someone choosing to spend time in nature in a cemetery. I can’t fathom why you’d want or need to talk with her or anyone else about it.

    98. SpaceOddity*

      Let her be! I will occasionally pop in to old cemeteries I pass by to take a few minutes to talk to my grandmother, who was cremated, but was a genealogist and loved to look at names etc in cemetaries. Harms nobody, helps me remember her.

    99. Drama Llama*

      I eat by myself. I talk all day in meetings or on the phone and I want to enjoy my meal break in silence. Don’t want to socialise, make small talk, or even sit with other people.

      What people do with their own time (and breaks count as one) is not your business to comment on.

    100. LilySparrow*

      I found that staying in the office at lunch was bad for my mental health, no matter how congenial my coworkers.

      I really needed natural light and greenspace for at least a short break every day. Walking or even just reading outdoors was a lifesaver.

      Most likely your coworker just sees it as a convenient, quiet, grassy area with a bench.

      Nothing wierd about that.

    101. Ashk434*

      This is 100% not weird. In fact, if I were your coworker and you brought this up to me, I would think you were crossing major boundaries and would not appreciate you judging what I did in my off time. I used to work in an office like this and thought it was very cult-y

      Not everyone is like you, OP. Some people are introverts and need time alone to recharge. Or heck, maybe that’s the only hour in the day where she can finally read that book she always wanted to get to. Ultimately it’s none of your business why she chooses to spend her time this way. And heck no this is certainly not unprofessional.

    102. Star Nursery*

      I think she just found a quiet relaxing spot outside nearby. She doesn’t find the place to sit creepy. I get that some people are creeped out by the thought of dead bodies buried there but really not everyone else is even thinking about the bodies laid to rest when they are at the cemetery.

      Plus the weather is warming up so she wants to get fresh air and read. I

      I also find cemeteries relaxing (and it’s interesting to look at headstones and names and dates people lived.) It’s also a gentle reminder that this life is not going to last forever. And reminds me to think about my life decisions and goals and how I spend my time. And gets me going on a philosophical thread that leads me to think about my life and whether I’m accomplishing anything. Sometimes it feels like a healthy kick in the butt… To waste less time worrying about the small stuff and reprioritize what matters to me. We are not guaranteed a tomorrow. This is my life (today/now) and am I satisfied with progress or lack of progress towards my personal and professional goals? Getting too caught up stressing over things that don’t really matter? Getting too busy doing stuff that I don’t put enjoy doing what I really care about? Am I living content and life to the fullest? I could go on but it’s not a bad thing ever to rethink my priorities and remember how my life will be here like a flower that fades.

      Anyways during the day I don’t find them creepy at all. I grew up with a cemetery and park that had pretty pond, benches and picnic areas. Great spot for fishing, running or walking, and the park side is rentable for reunions and graduation parties. My family would bring Subway for a picnic to eat on the benches and either enjoy the sunshine or go fishing. Some of the headstones are elaborate statues worth a tour. The Memorial day parade and band was led into ending at the cemetery.

    103. Sentido común*

      It’s weird you care so much about this. There is nothing unprofessional or to report or tell other people about. It’s her time, her break she can do whatever she likes. Also it’s problably peaceful there.

    105. tamarack and fireweed*

      Let me just put in my $.02: This is a completely normal and appropriate use for a cemetery. It’s what they’re for, to be used by the living.

    106. Nana*

      We visited a small 19th Century church cemetery on Maui…my girls (12 and 11) were fascinated. It was one of their favorite memories. OTOH, Mom was depressed to see (a) how many babies and children were there and (b) how many entire families…taken by one epidemic or another.

    107. Kitty*

      Lol! I’m guessing you’ve never met an introvert? ;-)

      My guess is that she just needs some alone time from working with people all day, and the cemetery is the closest nice green space she can get alone time. I used to go sit in the armchairs in the big lobby of the building next door to my work, so I could read in peace in a comfy chair without the chance of running into a co-worker and having to make conversation.

    109. MustangSally*

      Four months ago it was cold. Now it’s spring and she wants to enjoy the weather. When it gets cold again she will probably start eating with you again!

  2. Lillian Gilbreth*

    Looking for advice on picking a mentor!
    I’m in a pretty great position of having two women a few years ahead of me in the work place who seem interested in becoming my mentor in our male-dominated field. However, I don’t know which one would be better for my career. The first, let’s call her Ana, has been at my company for 5 years (this was her first job out of college, and the only job she’s ever had.) However, she’s risen very very quickly through ranks, receiving three promotions and more than doubling her salary in the 5 years she’s been here. She is very very good at what we do, but it is a bit of a niche industry. Also, we went to the same school for undergrad.
    The second woman, let’s call her Kim, worked at my company for three years right out of college and then left for a much bigger, broader company. She only stayed there for about 6 months and is now back in our small field. Even though she’s younger, since she has had more jobs she has a much wider professional network.
    Now, the issue is I have to pick because these two women hate each other (really Kim hates Ana, Ana is a pretty chill person, but there is definitely animosity on both sides.) I still hang out with Kim socially, and she frequently asks me about Ana (what she’s doing, what the office gossip is, etc) and recently while chatting with Ana I mentioned chatting about salary with Kim and she asked how much Kim was making at her new job. So basically, I think either one of these women would professionally mentor me but I feel a little sleazy talking to both of them, since the info they give me on their career progression is something the other one would be interested in for gossipy reasons.
    Any and all advice appreciated!

    (Also, this makes them both sound like horrible catty people but they really aren’t! They are both wonderful smart women who I enjoy spending time with, the drama is just what’s causing issue in my life at the moment so I focused on it here.)

    1. dr_silverware*

      Keep up with both of them! If it wigs you out to be friends with both of them, maybe ask them different kinds of advice? And practice that deflection to avoid the gossip…

      1. Lillian Gilbreth*

        Thank you! Since Ana is solidly my superior we have more of a friendly coworker relationship (we chat at work, email each other funny/relevant articles, but don’t hang out on the weekends or text out of work), while I went to Kim’s boyfriend’s birthday party recently. So definitely different relationships, but glad to hear it isn’t some sort of faux pas to keep them both around :)

        1. Reba*

          Yeah, your relationships are different. I actually think “choosing” one of them would be the worse approach. (This might depend on the reason why they don’t get along–not that you should deeply investigate this, but for ex. if one is accusing the other of doing something unethical, that would be something you’d want to consider, weighing how much you trust their respective words. But if it’s a BEC thing between them, it’s not a good look to let that affect professional interactions.)

          Depending on the nature of your conversations I could see having a gentle but direct request NOT to be asked specific questions about the other one during your chats. As you’ve presented it here, I’m reading it as they are invested in their beef and looking to you to feed it? Maybe that’s overreach but yeah, try to rise above!

        2. dr_silverware*

          Nope! I think it would be more of a faux pas to overly formalize either relationship, actually.

    2. Forking Great Username*

      Why does Kim hate Ana? I’d be pretty wary of choosing someone as a mentor if they hate other people in the field for no good reason.

      1. Lillian Gilbreth*

        Honestly, I think they just don’t get along. They’re both very driven, talented individuals, but they approach their work very differently and I think it irked Kim that Ana was doing so well despite being more laid back. One story I heard from Kim was that when Ana got promoted she was suddenly grumpy about being asked to help out with data entry work (which would still have been part of her job, just a smaller part.) I’m not sure if that’s true though, I hadn’t started yet when it happened.

    3. Grapey*

      Are you only looking to them because they’re the two female mentors? Personally, I would SO hate to work with someone I considered sleazy and it would cancel out looking to be mentored by someone of my own gender. Is there a larger pool including male mentors you could ask at that have the technical skills you’re looking for?

      If you’re determined to pick Ana or Kim, do so with the idea that you could become someone’s future mentor and learn from these women how NOT to act.

      1. Jaguar*

        Yeah. Unless you feel you need a mentor on gender issues in your industry or these are the only two people willing to provide mentorship to you, if you’re in a male-dominated industry and you’re looking for women to mentor you professionally, you’re logically eliminating the majority of your mentorship opportunities from the start.

    4. Millennial Lawyer*

      I think you’re overthinking it. A mentorship relationship isn’t about you “choosing a mentor” – it develops naturally. Right now you’re just talking about who to get career advice from. There’s no limit to that (and no limit to how many mentors you can have either by the way). It’s perfectly normal to go to either one of them and even pick and choose which things are better to talk to them about. As far as gossip – no need to get involved. You can stay general in your responses.

      1. Quinalla*

        Yes, having more than one mentor is best IME as you can go to different mentors with different things and for something big can get feedback from more than just one person. And as another woman in a male dominated field, I definitely understand the desire to have at least one woman mentor (and I finally do now, only took 15 years :/ ), but for sure don’t rule out men for that either.

        For me, right now I have three mentors I actively seek advice/guidance/etc. from regularly right now (at least once a month), but I have seven others that I go to much more infrequently. I’d love to have more women on that team, but right now there is just one. I do try to be a mentor myself for others whenever I can, not sure if you are ready for that yet or not, but keep it in mind!

    5. designbot*

      I think this notion of picking *a* mentor sets up unrealistic expectations. I’ve had several mentors throughout my life, sometimes at different times but sometimes overlapping. Unless you’re in some structured program that mentor-matches you and there’s a really formal relationship, this doesn’t need to be a thing. Just spend time with people who you enjoy or who inspire you and don’t overthink it.

  3. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

    Librarians in the audience: Is it normal for public libraries to leave their staff totally exposed to attacks and bad behavior from patrons, without providing public safety officers, or training for staff?

    I work for an urban public library system. We recently had a town hall meeting about the library’s new five-year plan. I piped up and voiced my concern about the library system’s indifferent attitude toward public safety. At this time, we have fewer public safety officers than we do branches. I mentioned that it would not be possible to create inclusive and welcoming spaces – one of the goals of the five year plan – if patrons and staff alike do not feel safe at their library. (Several of the staff who I supervise have witnessed patrons inflicting violence upon other patrons first hand; in my first few months on the job, I myself was cornered at the reference desk by a belligerent, intoxicated patron, and was essentially left on my own to deal with the situation.)

    The library’s executive director said that she’s heard the complaint many times, and that we have all come to rely too much on public safety staff to solve security problems. (The staff that’s not even present in two thirds of our branches.) She didn’t present any other alternatives to deal with what is a very real issue. In other words, her answer was to deal with it.

    Only one librarian in a room of dozens of people came to my defense. Another employee passionately defended the ED and said that uniformed authority figures (we use uniformed peace officers) tend to just escalate situations and make matters worse, and scare people in at-risk areas from using the library. Another person in the audience lamely said that the library has provided active shooter training (once, and it was held at the same time that I was delivering a program for our patrons).

    I was humiliated, and felt like crawling under a rock. But are they right? Do I need to just accept being on my own to deal with dangerous situations if I’m going to continue to work in a public library? I understand their point of view that people might see someone who looks like a police officer and perceive the library as unwelcoming to them. But they didn’t suggest providing any sort of training for staff, either; just that the world is a scary place, and we have to live with the risks.

    I’m well aware of the trends in the public library world: libraries as community centers and not necessarily places of learning/information, librarians increasingly serving as social workers, librarians being increasingly expected to revive overdosing patrons with naxolone, etc. I think I can live with those things, but with no provision for public safety whatsoever? Is this normal?

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Full disclosure: I’m not a librarian.

      However, I have worked years in customer service and I have to tell you that the worst places were the places where there were no safety measures in place to deal with badly behaved customers. You’re not out of line to raise this, and I feel like the fault is definitely higher up with the fact that the complaint has been raised many times and nothing tangible has come from it.

      Do what Alison always advises, get a group together and go in to push for change.

      Your safety is paramount.

    2. Still needs a name*

      I’m not a librarian, but you should be able to feel safe in your workplace. That’s a given. A library is unique, because it’s a public place where people can hang out, and unfortunately that can attract some bad characters.
      I would think of it as a workplace safety issue, document, and try to investigate what safety standards are needed from that angle.

    3. Luna*

      “rely too much on public safety staff to solve security problems” – I mean isn’t that literally what they are there for??

      I don’t work at a library but I think you are right to want a safe place to work. Yes there might always be more incidents expected when working directly with the public but that is why there should be low-key security there to help out.

      1. WellRed*

        Right??!! And I am guessing the ED is tucked away in a nice office away from the dirty public. Honestly, in addition to banding together with fellow librarians, I’d get the public involved somehow. (and maybe a note to the local newspaper).

        1. A tester, not a developer*

          You’d have to be very careful about how you word the concerns – you’d need to emphasize the benefit to the whole library community without drawing attention to the fact that there’s legitimate reasons to be concerned for people’s safety.
          If the general public becomes scared of taking their kids to the library, or going themselves, you’re going to get fewer patrons. And from what I’ve seen, lower numbers are a Very Big Deal to public libraries. Anyone who’s seen as the public face of scaring people away could have a rough time…

          1. Gatomon*

            My experience manning a public computer lab for several years has totally cured me of any desire to use a library or computer lab again if I can avoid it.

            If the library won’t protect the staff, who is going to protect the patrons?

      2. General Ginger*

        Exactly. I don’t work at a library, but I used to, and while I get that libraries are often one of the few community places at-risk groups have access to, you aren’t going to have a safe place for them, either, if other patrons and staff don’t feel safe.

      3. Lance*

        And more than that being what public safety staff is there for, that’s also what they’re trained for. Are normal public library staff trained to deal with situations like patrons fighting, or getting aggressive, on their own? I’m leaning toward ‘no’, and that’s why this is a very real problem, and the ED’s sentiment is, quite frankly, idiotic.

      4. Falling Diphthong*

        “rely too much on public safety staff to solve security problems”

        Think about what happened in Philly this week. People have solid reason to hesitate about having any concerns addressed by uniformed officers, possibly off-duty police. (e.g. Patron A doesn’t like that patron B is sitting in that cubicle, because patron B seems suspicious.)

        1. Your Tax Dollars at Work*

          Yes, seconding this. A library is tough because anyone can be in there for any reason as long as the library is open, and “feeling safe” can be arbitrary. For example, what is ok at a library in one part of the city may not be as welcome in other parts of the city. I think your ED is right to be a little concerned, slow moving, and intentional about creating uniform policies regarding public safety. And I say that as someone who works in public service, in an office anyone can walk into at anytime, with no security.

        2. Luna*

          But if there are no security officers then the librarians will be MORE likely to call the police because they don’t have anyone on staff to deal with it. Better to have unarmed staff guards who have no power to arrest anyone than to be constantly calling in the armed police officers.

    4. Meyla*

      I agree with you, though I do understand the thought behind not scaring away at-risk groups. I would speak with the librarian who agreed with you (and anyone else you can find who may have been in silent agreement) and try to come up with a solution that would work for everyone. Can the security person not stand right at the door? Or not be clearly uniformed? Having an officer on site certain days of the week?

    5. Damn it, Hardison!*

      A patron was recently stabbed to death in a public library in the Boston area, so the threat is real. I can understand that it is a fine needle to thread in communities with poor police relations, but at the same time, expecting librarians with minimal training in handling violent situations to deal on their own is not a solution.

    6. MK*

      I have never seen any kind of security in a library. And no, having security around will absolutely not create an inclusive and welcoming space, rather the opposite. I would focus on pushing for more training.

        1. Antilles*

          I don’t think it has to be uniformed police officers though. I used to work within walking distance of the Cleveland (OH) Public Library and went there on my lunch break regularly and can personally confirm they had security guards – one at the main entrance, then I usually saw a couple more walking around within the building.
          Not police officers, just the usual private security guards like you commonly see at company headquarters or malls or whatever.

          1. Jules the Third*

            Uniformed security don’t make vulnerable patrons safer either. I’d actually argue that their lesser training and authority make them *less* effective than police.

            1. pleaset*

              Depends on the guards. Speaking as a black man, having guards without the abiity shoot and arrest is better. Untrained guards might make more mistakes, but the results of police can be way way more severe.

              The library system I frequent (as a user – I have a library degree but do not work as a librarian) has security guards that, I think, are well-trained be part of the library system, playing it soft generally, and I think are under the direction of the library leadership.

              In my experience, police don’t take kindly to having to answering to anyone but their police bosses. I really wouldn’t want them in our libraries except in emergencies.

              1. Clare*

                Yeah, better to have unarmed security guards that can’t do much more than hustle someone out of the building than have the librarians calling the police.

                1. ‘Sup*

                  Amazingly and, apparently beyond most comprehension levels, if people follow the orders of the police, nothing drastic happens. Amazing, I know. The place to argue innocence is in court not on the side of the road (or anywhere else) with a police officer.

                3. Natalie*

                  @ ‘Sup, take it somewhere else. Your just trying to stir the shit, not mention anything actually relevant to a discussion about security at libraries.

      2. WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot*

        You must not have been to a library in a downtown area in awhile. I work in downtown near a library that I frequent. It is rather close to the soup kitchen, therefore people seeking shelter or just wanting to read, get on the computers, etc. come to the library often and are always welcome. I have seen on more than one occasion someone getting unruly and yelling at patrons, the librarians, anyone in the vicinity. There are several security guards on site that are able to handle the interaction to keep it a safe place. A librarian should not have to have the same safety training as a security guard.

        1. Mickey Q*

          When I lived in DC I once went to the library during the day and 95% of the people there were homeless. This was back in the day when they released a large number of people from the mental hospital and most of them had to live on the streets. Luckily I did not encounter anybody who scared me, but I can see how it could easily escalate into an unsafe situation.

          1. Grace*

            I remember that day—every park in thr District had dozens of people released from St. E’s with no place else to go.

        2. JeanB in NC*

          People already expect librarians to be parents, babysitters, teachers, job coaches, etc., etc. It’s not fair to expect them to add being a security guard to their job.

      3. Joie De Vivre*

        I was in the main branch of the Dallas Public Library recently. Multiple security guards walked through the floor I was on. There were a lot of homeless people present. Everyone was quiet and respectful. I felt better with the police presence. I assume the homeless were ok with the security, or they wouldn’t have been there.

        I did have a good conversation on the elevator with a man I suspect was homeless.

    7. fposte*

      I think it’s unfortunately common, but it’s not ideal. ALA has a Safety and Security in Libraries libguide–have a look there and see if that helps you with specific suggestions. I’ll post a link in followup.

      1. The Luidaeg*

        Full disclosure: I am a librarian. In an urban library.
        We have a public safety team who work at all of our locations, but we have also had training on dealing with hostile situations and how to de-escalate situations. So no, in my opinion, it is not out of line that you brought this up. Front-desk staff are often the first people that library patrons encounter, and they need to be confident in how to handle certain situations.
        Perhaps you could suggest some info from Black Belt Librarian: https://www.alastore.ala.org/content/black-belt-librarian-real-world-safety-security — or a webinar:
        https://infopeople.org/civicrm/event/info%3Fid%3D81%26reset%3D1 (sorry for the long links).
        Even if you have public safety staff, it’s very helpful to know how to handle situations or at the very least make an attempt. I feel that the more information staff have and the more comfortable they are, the more confident they are. I understand your frustration, definitely — but there are resources you can tap into on your own, but also suggest to your director. Something like a webinar to start, or perhaps having someone from the police or even a mental health professional come in to speak to staff, could be a good way to help everyone (even if they don’t work on the public desk).

        1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

          Thank you very much for this, and also to Fposte above. I’m going to read these. I do agree with the ED that some of our staff do rely on what minimal public safety staff we have to handle *every* unfavorable situation that might come up. Some situations don’t require any escalation. But training is paramount.

    10. MuseumChick*

      This is pretty typical for GLAM jobs (gallery, library, archives, museums).

      Not one museum I have worked at has had a “public safety officer”. That fact that you have any would be a HUGE step forward for most GLAM jobs. It’s really unfortunate. Luckily no one I know has ever been hurt but there have been a few scary incidences.

      You are right, the current tread is for libraries to be centers for community activity. There is nothing you can do about that trend. What you can do is present an suggestions (in a respectful way of course) the the director. “I was thinking about the safety issues we discussed in the meeting. Since the PSO are not the solution we want to go with what if did X, Y, or Z?”

    11. TiffIf*

      I worked in a library–it was on a university campus in a town very much not known for violence or any sort of disorder and there was security in the library. They were students (like I was) but they did have specific security training and the librarians, library assistants, shelvers, etc were not expected to handle any violence or issues, we were told to call security.

    12. Intel Analyst Shell*

      I worked as a library clerk in a very poor town in Mississippi for two years and this was the norm for us. We were down the street from an underserved high school and would have 40 (literally 40, I would count) teenagers in there every day after school until we closed at 8. It was terrible. We had zero control. I once called the cops and asked to be escorted to my car at closing (my self and another female coworker) because a creep had been hanging around all day and was then waiting in his vehicle parked between our cars. When I told my manager the next day I had called the police I got reprimanded. I have more stories but I’m on my phone at the moment. It was a constant battle of disciplining a neighborhood but still being welcoming becuase these kids really had nowhere else to go. For my manager at the time numbers came first and safety came second. So it seems to be the “norm” but that doesn’t mean it’s right.

      1. MuseumChick*

        This reminds me of something that happened at one of the few for-profit jobs I had. I was in the front office with one other woman. Waaaaaay in the back of the building was the warehouse so there were other people on the property but it would take them a long time to get to the front. Well me and the other woman saw a car circle the building, then park for 10 minuets, then circle the building again, park for 10 minuets, repeat over and over. We locked the front door, called the warehouse guys who went out and asked him what he was doing there. I forgot what the guy said, just that it sounded like BS. He drove off but we kept the door locked. When the owner came in about an hour later we told him what happened. He reprimanded us and told us “If you were that scared call the cops.”

    13. petpet*

      Disclaimer: I work in an academic library, though we are open to the public and deal with our fair share of problem patrons.

      This is probably my non-public library mindset showing, but the notion of a safety officer posted in our library has never even occurred to me. Our safety policy is that as soon as a patron’s behavior crosses the line – including yelling, cursing or belligerence – we ask them to leave, and if they won’t leave, we call the police. We’re fortunate in that we’re in a mid-sized city and police response is quick, and we’re also fortunate in that 90% of our police calls are about theft, not violence.

      Is that an option for you and your colleagues? Or are you truly expected to de-escalate and handle unsafe patrons by yourself?

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        We can call the police; there’s no restriction against that (thankfully). But most of our branches are not within immediate distance of a precinct, so of course, there’s a lag time where it’s all on the library staff to control the situation (or not).

        1. OhNo*

          Ooh, that makes it rough. I’ve worked in a couple of different types of libraries (academic right now), and there are so many situations where the problem can largely be reduced or avoided just by having the person removed quickly, before things have a chance to escalate too far.

          Any chance you could advocate for silent call buttons? I’ve worked in two different libraries that had them – in one case the button went straight to the police, and in the other it triggered something in the back room where other staff worked, as kind of a silent “I have a situation and need a witness” sort of alarm. That might not be workable in a public library, but it’s something else to consider.

    14. Samiratou*

      I don’t know if they should have safety officers assigned to every branch, but I also wouldn’t hesitate to the call the cops if there was violence between patrons or to remove drunken patrons.

      If the cops are called often enough, that should get their attention. The police may even start requiring branches provide security. Not sure.

    15. Leave it to Beaver*

      I work for a big, urban library. All our branches have security officers, but that doesn’t mitigate the issue that there is always the possibility that a patron will become reactive or aggressive to a staff member. As others have said, libraries are public spaces and regardless as to whether their community centers or a place to read, anyone is welcome. It sounds to me that the issue is that you don’t feel confident in your ability to manage aggressive (or potentially violent) situations. That’s not a criticism of you or your skills, but how your Library has trained you to handle these issues. Your ED’s response was pretty substandard to be honest, which is definitely disheartening. But, my question is what were you hoping the ED would say or do? Were you asking for more security staff or more training or stricter policies to support staff or all three? I think you’re absolutely right to bring up an issue that impacts your work and person, but it’s also important to demonstrate what it is that you need.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        I want to thank everyone for their responses so far. I wish I had the time to respond to everyone, but I do want to clarify that either providing more security staff or more training would have been acceptable to me. I hopefully made that clear to the ED.

    16. Modernhypatia*

      I’m with fposte on ‘it’s unfortunately common’ but thinking we can and should do better at it as a field. Some library systems are way more attentive to it than others.

      I’ve noticed a significant uptick in people talking about this in the past year, and there are resources out there (feel free to contact me via the site linked in my name if you want some options). Ryan Dowd has written a Librarian’s Guide to Homelessness (via ALA) and also offers training for staff (that libraries can sign up for) and a free weekly newsletter that gives you a sense of the content.

      There are also definitely trainings out there for things staff can do for each other – things like having a code word if you need someone to back you up with a difficult patron, or get you out of a situation where a patron is focusing on you in scary ways, or be ready to get more help.

      I think one of the things that can be really complicated in library work is talking about challenging patrons with other staff – sometimes different people see different things, and no one puts together that someone is being threatening or inappropriate for a long time. That’s lousy for other people in the library, and it’s lousy for staff.

    17. AnotherLibrarian*

      This is a complicated issue. When I worked in a public library, we never had a uniformed officer and I am glad we didn’t. I would have found it off putting and do find it off putting in libraries that do, unless they hold rare materials and need the added security.

      However, we did have a panic button we could push that would alert local law enforcement and we had a good relationship with several members of the local homeless population who let us know if we should be wary of anyone. One particular patron, I recall, was arrested for assault and then out on parole and threatened a coworker. It was our homeless friends that helped us get his full name, so we could put in the restraining order against him after that incident. Several had warned us about him, so we knew to be wary before the threatening behavior began.

      I am generally opposed to uniformed officers in libraries, but I also am opposed to people feeling unsafe. Perhaps you could look at the ALA Guidelines for Library Security and see about getting a training? We did several training sessions on how to approach people who were drunk or having mental health issues. No one should just have to “deal with dangerous situations”. That’s not fair to you.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        They make panic buttons that you can wear. This way the button is with you at all times. You wear it so it can be seen, that in itself can be a deterrent. The signal works on radio waves.

    18. Q*

      You are right. You deserve to feel safe at work. The downtown branch of our local library system used to have some of the issues you mentioned. They now have a security guard posted at the front door and another in the back by the restrooms. The front door guard is friendly and acts as a greeter, unless someone gets out of line and then s/he escorts the unruly patron out. The guard in the back watches over the computer uses and holds the key for the restrooms and you have to ask to be let in.

    19. allthearts*

      (Not a librarian.)

      I’m going to agree with your colleague that having uniformed officers can escalate situations and create a fearful and unwelcoming space for minorities who, especially right now, don’t have a lot of ability or reason to trust police officers. I understand that you use “peace officers,” but, at least in my understanding, they’re still law enforcement. There are a lot of articles and resources out there about de-escalation and alternatives to calling the police–I would recommend seeing if there are any local groups doing that sort of training or advocacy work in your area and reaching out to them to do a presentation or workshop for you.

      The links in here are a decent starting point:
      http://www.toolboxfored.org/instead-of-calling-the-police/

    20. Decima Dewey*

      In my library system, we aren’t supposed to open a branch without a guard present or on his/her way. We also have an online form to report incidents and another to report workplace violence. I’ve had to file such reports myself and have gotten prompt calls from the powers that be and/or a member of workplace violence committee.

      We are also told that public safety is every staff member’s responsibility, not just the guard’s. If a patron is breaking the rules and the guard is on his/her lunch break, any other staff member can intervene. Training in deescalation is offered frequently and all staff are encouraged to attend.

    21. Rather be Reading*

      I work in a medium sized library in an area that’s part suburb and part kinda-dodgy. We don’t have a security guard, but the nearest police station is under a mile away, so if we have an incident we can usually get a pretty rapid response. Even when I worked in a library that did have a security guard, we would still have to call 911 from time to time, because people wouldn’t listen to directions from the guard.

      I have some questions about your library system’s overall safety protocol.

      1. Does your district allow/encourage staff to call the emergency police line when things get bad? A patron assaulting someone in the library is a crime, and that’s absolutely something you should report to the police.

      2. Can you and your coworkers devise a “rescue me” signal? Having an agreed on sentence or physical action to indicate to your coworkers that you need them to intervene or call 911 has been a big help to me and my coworkers in the past.

      3. Does your library/local government have an incident reporting system? In every library I’ve worked for, we’ve had a form we were supposed to fill out if a customer went over the line in the ways you’ve described. It creates a body of evidence that may show that your branch in particular could use more assistance from law enforcement.

      4. Is there anyone in your branch that has the authority to remove patrons from the library if their behavior becomes a problem?

      If you and your coworkers can figure out the answers to these questions, it might make all of you feel a little safer and more empowered.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        In response to the four points you mention:
        1. Yes, we are allowed to call the police.
        2. This is a great idea and we have had code words here – it’s a system that has worked.
        3. This one is the real problem – we do have an incident reporting form, but some security administrators have encouraged us to document *everything* while others have reprimanded my colleagues for (in my opinion, correctly) using the form.
        4. In theory, yes, any staff member is empowered to ask a disorderly patron to leave. But in practice, I’m an average-size, very meek person that a less friendly member of society does not take very seriously. To be fair, those patrons normally don’t listen to our security staff, either, when present. The best answer, to me, seems to be to press for additional training.

        1. Iris Eyes*

          Do you have regular patrons that are more assertive/intimidating that could be deputized? At least made aware that if they see a librarian trying to address the issue they can come and stand beside them and reaffirm what they are saying as necessary?

          There are plenty of people who may want to help but might feel that its not their place to. I think the sometimes presences of uniformed professionals can greatly dissuade people from backing you up as well.

    22. Disaster Voyeurism*

      I’m a librarian, though not a public one.
      You are not alone in your observation. There has been some discussion of this topic on library twitter about safety versus community comfort vis a vis security personnel in light of the Philly Starbucks incident (because Starbucks has a corporate ‘third place’ policy which is the same kind of ‘place’ a public library is expected to be). Hopefully there is a #critlib discussion about it at some point to help illuminate how to handle and frame these situations.
      Your ED sounds like they don’t know how to handle this or -fingers crossed- didn’t want to address it in detail in an open forum (too bad they didn’t offer to talk about it with you later).

    23. EmilyG*

      I formerly worked in a big urban public library system, not in a frontline job, and now work in a different kind of library. I’m not sure what the exact right approach is but I think your ED certainly got it wrong by brushing off the question. To me the least-bad solution might be very very well-trained library security staff, which is what my old system strove for. A diverse group of staff in not-too-police-looking uniform with special training that emphasized just talking to people, de-escalation, guiding them to social organizations that can help with beyond-the-library issues like food and bathing. Not all of the “problem patrons” were homeless by any means, but rules regarding bothering others users and personal odor were some of the most frequently broken compared to belligerent or violent patrons. I don’t think ignoring these issues is fair to you as a staff member. At the very least it would be realistic to admit that these challenges exist and train *you* on how to respond. I think it really comes out in smaller cities, which deal with problems that people, 1980’s style, think of as “big city problems” but they’re actually everywhere now. Relevant link to follow in another comment.

    24. LibraryLife*

      It’s very common for libraries to not have a safety officer. In fact, for many libraries, the expense would be more than their annual budget. The libraries that I have worked at (considered small when compared to Boston or NY, but they are some of the largest in our state), staff is encouraged to intervene if they feel safe, but are instructed to call the police if patrons get out of hand. Very often mentioning calling the police is enough to get patrons to stand down.
      We have an excellent relationship with our police officers, and they are always happy to come to the library to help us out, but we did not employ any sort of security.

    25. Thursday Next*

      Sorry for yet another non-librarian comment, but I thought I’d come out in support of well-trained library security. I’m a block from the central branch of a large urban library, which has a huge children’s wing, and there’s security posted by that exit. It definitely makes sense to have a security presence where there’s a large group of children in a public space. I feel better knowing that my kids couldn’t make a break for it unnoticed, and it certainly sends a message that the space is monitored and the kids’ safety is valued.

      I certainly understand issues around police relations in minority communities (my library is located in one), but at the same time, the security officers help preserve a safe after-school place for children who aren’t accompanied by adults, and I think that’s a very valuable way to serve minority communities.

    26. Sky Bison*

      I worked for a major university library for about four years. We had, at all times, 3 security guards. One at the entrance, one who patrolled, and one who just kind of floated. None of them were armed, sometimes they were small women, but all had cuffs and I believe a kind of nightstick? This was in Canada, but in a city where there happened to be a lot of prisons (yes I’ve outed myself to other Canadians what school this was now), and I only had to call on them three times total in my four years there. Once because I found a weapon in the stacks, once because a patron was threatening me, and once because a student was attempting suicide.

      So three times in four years but all of those times it was a situation that went from 0 to 100 extremely quickly. If security hadn’t been there, I’m not sure what would have happened. I also was only part time so I can only imagine the things you have to deal with. This level of complete disregard for your safety – people don’t see or use libraries the way they used to. Libraries (because Librarians are badasses super geniuses) have managed to keep up with the change, so the rest of the staff needs to get on board and get you the support you need. This is unacceptable. Don’t feel embarrassed. They should feel embarrassed.

    27. Zennish*

      “we have all come to rely too much on public safety staff to solve security problems. ”

      Really??? Isn’t that a bit like “We have all come to rely too much on the maintenance staff to solve our plumbing problems.” or “We have all come to rely too much on the IT staff to solve our computer problems.”

      What, exactly, are they there for besides solving security problems?

      1. Zennish*

        I should also mention that our urban branches don’t have guards, but then we’re not in what you’d commonly think of as a high crime urban area (think more like Indianapolis, less like Detroit). Those branches do, however have cameras, security lighting, and the police on speed dial, with management backing if the staff decides they need to call them.

      2. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        “We have all come to rely too much on the IT staff to solve our computer problems.”

        That attitude is prevalent at our library as well. It’s a strange place.

    28. SnarkyLibrarian*

      I work in a large urban public library system and we use a mix of uniformed police officers (picking up overtime shifts) and private security officers. I have never, ever seen one of the private security people do anything but play on their phones. Or go outside to “check the parking lot” and disappear for a nap in their car.

      A lot of my coworkers feel unsafe in their branches and like management isn’t protecting them. No advice besides the excellent links others have posted, just lots of sympathy from someone else in the trenches!

    29. Melodious Thunk*

      I hope you attend to the news enough to understand that “uniformed authority figures” DO “tend to just escalate situations and make matters worse” and that, therefore, some of your patrons will both feel and actually be LESS safe if there is a greater police presence. That makes the situation you describe a more complex problem than you seem to recognize. Of course both library staff and library patrons deserve to feel and be safe. At the same time, it’s really true that increased police presence might literally endanger some of your patrons and staff. So, what’s needed is, I think, a less complaining and combative attitude on your part. Acknowledging the complexities of the situation will give you better standing to insist that a suitable solution has not yet been found and to offer ideas for finding that solution. Depending on the demographics of your situation, that might mean a branch-by-branch series of conversations that include staff, patrons, and community partners such as nearby homeless shelters or social service agencies. Or it might mean a process of consultation with libraries that have found what feels to them to be a balanced approach that protects everybody without endangering anybody. I love libraries and librarians, so I know that there are lots of good examples out there. Good luck!

      1. Junior Dev*

        Agree that the presence of police or security guards may make some patrons and staff less safe, disagree that the OP is being “complaining and combative.” This is a really complicated issue. OP has the right to be safe at work; the tricky part comes with recognizing and working around the fact that police and security don’t always make things safer.

        I volunteer at a homeless teens organization and occasionally they have to deal with someone being belligerent. If your concern is with the homeless population in particular you could ask some local orgs that work with that population for advice. Keep asking around until you get someone who acknowledges that police and security guards can make the situation more dangerous and has found strategies to deal with that.

      2. SpaceNovice*

        This is a very good point. Whether a police presence will make certain groups of people safer or not relies entirely with HOW the officers are trained. If the department lives and breathes modern training techniques that include de-escalation, mental health crisis intervention, anti-bias, and dealing with learning disabilities, they make everyone safer all around. If the department doesn’t follow those sorts of best practices, then it’s a crapshoot whether the security officer has the capability to bring situations to safe and successful resolutions.

        (You can figure out immediately if a police department follows best practices by searching online for “de-escalation” with the department’s name. Departments that adopt this training are usually very loud about it because it’s so effective, so if it doesn’t show up, assume they’re not following best practices. They may also be in transition with not 100% of officers trained, in which case the library should request someone that HAS been trained. It’s an enormous night and day difference.)

      3. Luna*

        I think some people are confusing staff security guards with police. While some people will feel uncomfortable around anyone with a uniform, they aren’t the same thing.

      4. Specialk9*

        “So, what’s needed is, I think, a less complaining and combative attitude on your part.”
        Riiiiight. OP, just stop noticing that you’re afraid of being physically hurt at work without training or backup or management even caring. The real problem is on you for not caring enough about the complexities behind why they’re trying to hurt you. Why are you *complaining* about being harmed physically at work? So *combative* of you to care about a safe work environment.
        /S

        2. Melodious Thunk*

          I was referring to OP’s dismissal of the perspective of a more experienced librarian in her own system as well as OP’s reference to “no provision for public safety whatsoever” at the end of a post that quite clearly discussed *insufficient* but not *absent* provisions. It’s one thing to say, “I don’t feel that the public safety provisions we have in place are enough, let’s talk about how to improve them.” It’s another thing to complain about “no provision for public safety whatsoever” or to give off the air that you think this is because people don’t care enough rather than because the question of what to do is really complicated.

    30. Drago Cucina*

      Public Library Director here. This is a legitimate concern. We don’t have public safety officers present in the library. We do have a good relationship with our police department and if anything ever feels hinky we call and ask for a walk through. We don’t over react so they know if we call it’s legitimate. On the white board in the staff area one of my top 5 rules is “When in doubt call the police.”

      I have also been on a long term mission to expect patrons to treat our staff and each other with courtesy and respect. The staff shouldn’t be harassed in anyway shape or form. Before Sandy Hook I had beefed up security into staff areas (coded locks) and other safety measures. I had the police chief come do a security walk through and give me suggestions. I was seen as over reacting. Then I was seen as prescient.

      We’ve added security cameras. Our recent staff training day focused on dealing with sexual harassment from the public. We also did active shooter training. We close the library two days a year and do all staff training so we don’t run into the problem that you had. I had a board member wonder why we would bother with active shooter training and had another board member told her she needed to read a newspaper.

      Some libraries have lost major lawsuits to staff because they refused to protect them from harassment. I sometimes have to phrase it that I’m protecting the library from liability. We want to be open and welcoming, but that has to be balanced with protecting the staff and members of the public.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        You sound like a terrific library director. Thank you for your comment.

    31. Seal*

      As an academic librarian and branch manager, I am disgusted by your ED’s response. Everyone should feel safe in a library; there is absolutely no excuse for not setting and enforcing standards of behavior for patrons and staff. I currently work at a large academic library in a college town. In addition to a large student population, we also have a significant number of non-affiliated users, including a large homeless population, that use our library. We have uniformed security monitors (students in polo shirts) that regularly patrol our buildings, limits on the amount time non-affiliated users (e.g. members of the public) can use computers, and a patron conduct code that gets enforced. All of this was put in place years ago in response to a few major security incidents, including an arson fire. While none of our security measures are heavy-handed, security is a definite and obvious presence in all of our library buildings and no one hesitates to call on them if there’s a problem. As a result, we have very few security incidents and everyone feels safe, largely because our regular users know that bad behavior will bring consequences up to and including getting banned from our building. What we do isn’t unique, nor should it be; library administrators have a responsibility to their staff and users to ensure that their facilities are safe for everyone.

    32. Ellery*

      I worked at the central branch of a library in a large city and we had either uniformed security or cameras at every entrance. Unless there was a problem, security just stayed at their desks, more or less.

      The vast majority of the staff patrons encountered were not librarians, most of them were pages and senior pages, most of whom were still going to school. Very young people who should not be expected to de-escalate potentially violent situations.

      I’m not sure what security was like at the other branches, but again, most of them were staffed by pages.

    33. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I think patrons should be in on the conversation on how your library goes forward with security personnel and procedures. Imagine how the Philadelphia Starbucks situation would have gone down differently if the manager’s training on “trespassing” included a face-to-face conversation with people of color.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        I agree completely. Especially after reading the comments to this post where I’m seeing a very diverse range of responses just among library employees, which has been pretty enlightening, I wonder exactly how patrons feel about this issue.

        1. Anion*

          Patrons feel like if the library isn’t safe, we’re not going there, and our tax dollars should be paying for safety for ourselves, our children, and the library’s employees.

          I personally would not go to a library that refuses to address safety concerns. I actually think the OP might want to consider taking this to a higher level.

          1. Anion*

            Oh, and–OP, *if* you were a librarian in my town, and *if* you were to, say, post your concerns on the community’s Reddit boards/Facebook page/City Hall website/local newspaper discussion forums (or wrote a letter to the editor)/whatever other town-centric public forums, online or not… I would join you, and would *as a citizen* begin writing letters to whichever people in authority had the power to set policy, approve funding for security, or make laws regarding same.

            I mean…just *if* you were to do any of that to make the issue public.

            And I bet I’m not the only one. Libraries are important, librarians are important, and the safety of both is not something that should be sacrificed. This is an issue I would get very involved in.

    34. librarianish*

      Librarian here, though in an academic institution. Agree w/ others who have suggested prioritizing safety, and pushing for change. If the particular security staff wasn’t working out, then that’s the thing that should be improved. Even staff with training should not be expected to deal with issues involving threats to anyone’s safety.

    35. Anonymous5*

      I’ve worked in both public and academic libraries, only one had a public safety officer (academic) and it was amazing!

      I agree theoretically that police officers can be intimidating and scare away potential patrons. But I also believe that the public safety officer was my best friend sometimes. I could do my job because he could take care of people yelling and screaming, being creepy, stealing things. He was friendly, and all the students knew him by name, he was a well-liked figure.

      I also don’t think this is the norm. Most libraries don’t have this. And that is an unfortunate reality whether or not it’s fair.

    36. Student*

      Worked in a library in a neighborhood that was similar to yours.

      We had a local on-duty police officer that would regularly come by for a part of his patrol. Our main library police officer (it was almost always the same guy) was a stand-up fellow. He understood his “beat”, and that a library cop requires a compassionate, calm, and deescalating policing approach. He was great. Never saw him mis-handle a situation. He wasn’t there all the time, but it was often enough to make a difference without scaring off all our patrons. He wandered casually around the building, often in the stacks or around in back areas, so that he wasn’t scowling at people near the entrance or being generally intimidating.

      We locked stuff up and locked stuff down to discourage bad behavior. Computer access was limited to a specific room with hard-wired internet on the computers (this was before wi-fi was a thing). It was obviously supervised (by a librarian conspicuously in the area, not a cop), and you’d lose privileges if you broke the computer rules – like looking at porn or not taking turns (a half-hour at a time, I think) when people were waiting. You could potentially switch off wi-fi if that’s contributing to people hanging about without using the actual library services, and move to a more old-fashioned computer lab.

      We locked the bathrooms up at night. That helped keep people from trying to move in or stay past closing. We librarian-hushed people who were noisy, which generally drove disruptive people off and broke up/supressed groups of teens.

      We still had plenty of problems, but we approached them with a lot less general anxiety than your post displays. Maybe you aren’t really cut out to work in the community you’re serving? You don’t understand them, and it doesn’t seem like you are learning how their world works; you expect somebody to turn it into your world. For a lot of poor people, what you’ve described is normal daily life – whereas to you this is obviously very jarring and you don’t know how to handle it.

      Primer: It’s okay, expected even, to get tough with problem patrons. It’s okay to expel people who can’t follow the rules, and throw them out if they try to come back – that would be you making the library a safe and calm place for all the poor folks who are more respectful of it, rather than making it the eternal refuge of one noisy drunk who won’t change his ways any time soon. It’s okay, and expected, to call the cops when someone attacks another library patron. It’s okay to raise your voice to somebody who’s trying to intimidate you, or to walk away or refuse to serve people who are cruel to you. They EXPECT you to take a hard line with them, because they do not come from your polite world – they come from a world where, largely, might makes right and authority figures take a hard line – so when you fail to do that, they will try to see exactly how far they can walk all over you as a way of undermining your perceived authority. I know that sounds harsh to you – but that’s how I grew up, and that’s how I lived until I moved to the world of civilized politeness and had to learn the system you’re more familiar with.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        I’m not going to further engage on this but I just want to make it clear to other readers: I didn’t say a word about the neighborhood of this library in my original post.

      2. Anion*

        I don’t think making assumptions about, and condescendingly lecturing, the OP is helpful here. She asked a specific question; did you choose not to answer it, or did you simply miss it in your rush to call her a sheltered snob?

        1. Student*

          I didn’t get deep into details here, but this is what actually works to deal with patrons who are out of control and not members of the upper crust, so to speak. I had patrons attack me, slash my tires, hit on me, beg from me, try to scam me, try to follow me into the back, try to sleep in the library, deface stuff, dealt with drunks, drug addicts, etc. I was poor right along next to them, so it’s not a matter of not understanding them or not having sympathy.

          You’re obviously an outsider, so let me spell it out – we are different than you, we operate differently than you, we think different than you, and we have different values than you. We live in a different world than you and it does not operate on your rules. That is exactly why we’re so different from you. I know because I got to live in both poor-land and wealthy-land.

          I took a hard line because I knew, personally, that the library was better kept as a refuge for the poor who respect it than as a temple to the worst of our (explicitly, my) kind who’d terrorize the poor, quieter patrons just as much as they’d bother the librarians. The mad-kings of the poor can go claim some other public area to lord over and abuse.

          I see now that OP doesn’t have that in him/her to follow such advice on being tough to them, from an earlier OP comment about being on the meek side. OP, you have two options – make good friends with a fellow staffer who can deal with difficult patrons for you, and have them handle that part of your job for you – or get a different job. Your job isn’t going to change, and it sounds like you aren’t willing or able to change to meet your patrons where they are.

          And you don’t need to pretend about the neighborhood, OP. No need to get he vapors there, that’s not something that actually offends people. We all know you aren’t tending to a library on the nicest side of town if you’re worried about getting attacked at work or thinking about giving people OD remedy drugs. Poor folks like me don’t resent it when you notice that we’re poor and that our neighborhoods suck. We resent it when you pretend as if our obviously crappy neighborhoods are just as nice as the high-rises or the McMansion suburbs, though. It’s obvious to us that we’re not living in Disneyland – the drunks vomiting in the public library give the illusion away pretty fast.

          1. Anion*

            …and now you’re making assumptions about me.

            Please stop.

            You do not know me. You know nothing about me, where I live, how much money I have or do not have, and what I have been through in my life.

            I have been homeless.

            Quit patronizing me.

      3. Anonymous Librarian - Northeast USA*

        I’m actually curious here, Student: are you male or assigned male at birth? Because all of these behaviors that you’ve so condescendingly lectured the OP on as being okay are actually very AMAB/M behaviors, and depending on the library, may actually not be okay from the ED’s point of view.

        1. Manuel*

          Student made it pretty clear that the distinction is along socioeconomic lines, not sex and gender. Ad hominem attacks aren’t helpful. I’m female and I learned early on to take the same hard line Student described with people that tried to take advantage of me and/or victimize me. I’ll help out someone in true need, but other intentions receive a firm no and a readiness to defend myself physically if necessary. I thought Student did a pretty good job explaining that people who use violence, fear, and intimidation in their daily interactions think very differently than people who don’t/won’t/can’t. These are behaviors that they have relied on their entire lives for basic survival.

    37. Anion*

      It is unfortunately normal these days that the safety of the general public–especially women–is sacrificed for the sake of looking “inclusive.” Generally the people making these policies, the ones who are most concerned with looking “inclusive,” are the ones who do not have to put their own safety at risk, but are happy to tell us proles that we must do so.

      (I am specifically NOT trying to make the above as a political comment, and am not trying to start a political discussion.)

      1. Elizabeth H.*

        If you’re NOT trying to make a political comment, maybe you shouldn’t have posted your comment, which is entirely political!

        1. Anion*

          Really? Which political party did I blame? Are they not both guilty (yes)?

          Making a general statement about “people who make policy” is not a partisan political statement. The OP asked a question–“Is this normal?”–and I answered it.

    38. JG*

      I’m on the board of my local library. It’s a good-size building (60K+ square feet) in a downtown area. We always have at least one security guard on duty and would absolutely do more if our staff felt unsafe.

    39. Anonymous Librarian - Northeast USA*

      Your ED is a terrible person. My library is lucky, in that we’ve got community security officers and we have a pretty regular police presence. We also had several rounds of active shooter training lately, as well as police come in to do a serious workplace evaluation. Because of that, we just updated our security camera situation, too.

      I’m so sorry that you were humiliated for bringing up a very real concern, and I wish there was a good way to help you fix this. Maybe reach out to your state’s (or neighboring states’, or country’s?) professional library association and see if they have safety recommendations. In my opinion, personal safety in public places is one of the things we all need to be thinking about.

      And just to reiterate: they are not right! You should not be trapped behind any desk by any kind of patron and told to “deal with it”. That is not acceptable, and the fact that your ED finds it acceptable when they would never be in that situation is very troubling.

      1. Anonymous Librarian - Northeast USA*

        Another thought – if you’re comfortable doing it, it may be worth reaching out to your local police force and encouraging them to stop by to use your bathrooms during their patrols. It’s an irregular police presence, but it’s regular enough that it can often discourage people from being rowdy — they’ll never know just *when* a police officer might be in the building.

    40. ronda*

      my local library refused to open one morning because the full staff (including security person) were not in yet.
      I think most places with more than a few employees do actually have security people / procedures.
      your library is probably ignoring it because of cost.

    41. Lara*

      Not a librarian… but I can recognise a weak excuse for not wanting to spend the money when I see it.

    42. Old librarian*

      Librarian here and your ED is wrong. Everyone needs to feel secure at work. The presence of security can be done unobtrusively with correct training. Unfortunately, I doubt that there is anything you can do. Real solutions take time and money and those are usually lacking in most public libraries.

    43. BeBoth*

      As a fellow librarian, I want to be kind here, but you screwed up a little. In a room full of your peers, you put your ED on the spot. Unfortunately human behavior veers toward the defensive in that situation, and that is exactly how the ED responded. A few others voiced support of the ED’s opinion, because either 1) they agree with the ED, or 2) they want to make brownie points with the ED. Who knows.

      The better way to go at this would be to gather up some data and other information (as a librarian, I bet you’re good at research, right?) and come up with some possible solutions for this issue. And by the way, I agree that the issue you raised is a REAL one that should be taken seriously. But, nothing will be done if you don’t do some work to make it happen. A couple suggestions:
      -ask open-ended questions of your co-workers in a one on one environment. What do they think? Do they fear for their safety? Do they have any suggestions about how to fix the problem?
      -do you belong to any library-related forums or mailing lists? Make a post asking for feedback and suggestions. What have other libraries done to deal with safety?
      -look outside the box, so to speak. What do other places do that have to deal with a wide variety of the public? How are employees made to feel safe there?
      -put all that information together and come up with some viable solutions. Set up a meeting with the ED. If at all possible, include some of your co-workers who support your point of view in the meeting to make a united front.
      Good luck!

  4. Llama Wrangler*

    Two questions, as I am deep in the job search. Short versions at top, explanations below. (1) Do you think a slow reference check process with bad communication is a red flag, or just a normal part of hiring always taking unexpectedly long? (2) What are your strategies for emotionally moving past not getting a job offer?

    (1) * Do you think a slow reference check process with bad communication is a red flag I was told I was a finalist for a position about a month ago and asked for references.* (They had actually already asked for my references earlier in the process, but this time they wanted a different set with some specific non-supervisors). I sent it along with a follow-up question and just got back a quick “Thanks, I’ll get back to you soon” email. Two weeks passed; my references didn’t hear anything, I assumed that they had either paused the hiring process or decided to move forward with another candidate. Then, a week and a half ago, I got another email saying that they had been waiting until after the holiday to call, would be calling last week, and would be in touch this week. Given that they’d been moving slowly, I wasn’t expecting them to stick to their timeline, but apparently none of my references have heard from them at all. So, now it’s been a month since I sent them, and 8 days since they said they were going to start checking them. My question specifically is would you take this delay this late in the process as a red flag? Or is this normal? I’m very used to slow hiring processes, but every other time that I’ve gotten to the reference check stage things have move very quickly. For what it’s worth, there have been no other major red flags in the process, but there has been some recent reorganization within the team.

    (2) * What are your strategies for emotionally moving past not getting a job offer?* I recently interviewed for a position, and after the interview decided that it wasn’t a good fit for me. They contacted me a few days after the interview and said they had decided they didn’t want to move forward with me either. So, should be cut and dry. However, I still feel kind of frustrated with them — I feel like they did multiple things that set me up to struggle in the interview, and then attributed it to my lack of skills (which I think was representative of the manager’s approach to supervision, which was why I decided I didn’t want to work for him), and I think they’re making unwise decisions about how they’re trying to staff the role (again, why I didn’t want to work there). I can’t figure out why I’m not feeling a sense of relief at having dodged a bullet! Is this something other people experience, and if so, how do you move past it?

    1. Susan K*

      (1) No, I don’t think it’s a red flag. Managers are busy, and who knows what crisis may have come up in the past week that became a higher priority than hiring? It’s really, really common for the hiring process to take longer than expected every step of the way, so I wouldn’t read into this.

      (2) I don’t know if there are really “strategies” other than just changing your mindset and not taking it personally. I’ve had some frustrating interviews, too, where it seemed like the interviewers spent most of the time trying to sell me on the job instead of asking me questions to determine if they wanted to hire me, and then I didn’t get an offer. It really irritated me that they flew me out for these interviews and didn’t even give me a chance to make a case for myself. But, you know, there are pros and cons to every job, and maybe even if they had picked me, the offer wouldn’t have been good enough. Maybe if they had done good interviews, there still would have been someone better. I guess you just have to accept that sometimes things don’t work out.

    2. DivineMissL*

      Regarding #1 – I used to work in retail, and then about 20 years ago, I switched to office work. I was APPALLED at how slowly everything moved, particularly hiring. Often applications are accepted for several weeks, and then it takes several weeks to schedule the interviews because Joe’s on vacation, then Jane is at a seminar, there’s a holiday, etc. Then, the decision makers aren’t available for two weeks, or somebody is out sick – and before you know it, it’s been 3-4 months. In retail, we always filled jobs immediately, because we needed folks out on the sales floor. In offices, there doesn’t seem to be the same sense of urgency. If the place is reorganizing, that may explain some of the delays. It’s unfortunate that they’re not communicating with you, but if there are no other red flags, you’re probably just going to have to be patient (but still send out resumes elsewhere, just in case). Good luck!

    3. Llama Wrangler*

      Thanks Susan K and DivineMissL — it’s helpful to hear that this is not a sign of dysfunction. I know how slow the hiring process is in office jobs, but I’ve worked in (multiple) toxic places before so I’m really trying to make sure I’m not missing anything in vetting this place.

    4. Seriously?*

      I think these are very common feelings. For the first, I think you need to mentally move on. If you hear from them great, but there is nothing you can do right now except drive yourself crazy. As for the second, if this is the managers approach to supervision, then maybe their interview process actually will help them find someone who can do well in the role and screen out people who will not. It can actually be a good thing if the interview makes some of the position’s challenges abundantly clear.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Thanks! I think in both cases they are things I know intellectually to be true but am having a hard time FEELING to be true. I’ll just keep reminding myself that this is out of my control and to just keep applying.

    5. hbc*

      Regarding #2–are you something of a fixer? Because I sometimes end up stuck in that same place, where it’s like, “If you just stopped doing this obviously wrong thing, then both of us would be happier. Why are you being so self-destructively wrong and getting your wrongness all over me?” I have to remind myself that what seems obvious and easy to me is somehow non-obvious or impossible for them, and I’m just not in a position to make them see the light.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Haha, yes that is a good description. I think because my field is relatively close-knit and tends to have a culture of cross-organizational support, it’s harder for me to see an org that seems to be ignoring best practices and going off the rails. But you’re right that I’m not in a position to get them in the fold.

    6. Formerly Arlington*

      1. Is it a really large company? Our HR team takes forever! It’s absolutely not personal if the hiring process tends to be slow there.

      2. I was in this boat four years ago and honestly mourned the loss like a heartbreak. I’d been to their offices 4 times and met a total of 16 people. The job seemed perfect and I was pretty certain I was going to get it given how detailed our conversations about salary were and the fact that they exposed me to their entire management team. In the end, they promoted someone internally and passed on me. I was devastated. Six months later, I got a job opportunity that was better than this one in ways I never would have envisioned then, and meanwhile, that company has had a rough few years and had layoffs that likely would have impacted me. So I guess just keep in mind that things sometimes work out the way they are going to work out. But when I remember the day I got that phone call saying no…I still cringe. It hurt.

    7. designbot*

      WRT #1, sometimes we have to remember that our normal is not the same as industry normal is not the same as someone else’s normal. This may be normal for them.
      Or, it may just be indicative of something about the situation—I’ve found from the other side that my pace about getting back to someone has so much more to do with what’s going on with me than it does with how I feel about them. Either they have such a need that they don’t even have time to hire, or their need isn’t that urgent and this keeps getting pushed to the side for other priorities.

    8. Mad Baggins*

      Re: #2, I had a similar experience where I was frustrated by an interview and also frustrated that they didn’t pick me (even though I wouldn’t have picked them). It hurts to be told you’re not good enough/you’re not what we want, especially when you feel like you haven’t gotten to make a case for yourself. In my situation, I got some drinks and vented about it, talked out my insecurities, and eventually realized that even if I could have made the perfect presentation with backup dancers and an orchestra, I wouldn’t have wanted to work there anyway. What I was really nervous about was do I have what it takes to break into this field, am I interviewing well, am I explaining my experiences well, etc. and I chose to address those issues so I’d be better prepared for a job I actually wanted.

      So, what do you want to learn from this?

  5. Foreign Octopus*

    It’s so hot in Spain at the moment that I’m having trouble concentrating when teaching my classes. I realise this is sometimes the opposite of a problem but halfway through the day, I just want to fall asleep because it’s so hot. Any idea on how to keep myself awake that isn’t coffee related?

    1. Irene Adler*

      A good, brisk walk. I know it’s hot, but if you can get the body moving and the blood flowing a bit, that will wake you up. Maybe some laps around the class room?

      1. Grad Student*

        Your username reminded me–there’s a scene in Elementary (a Sherlock Holmes adaptation) where Watson shows Sherlock how she pulled all-nighters in med school: by doing 100 full-body squats with sweeping horizontal arm motions. I’ve tried this (but doing like….20, not 100) and it wakes me up at least temporarily!

        2. Foreign Octopus*

          I don’t think I could do one without breaking down into tears but that’s an idea, thanks!

    2. sunbittern*

      Water for sure! But also iced tea or something cool/cold with ginger in it keeps me peppy without coffee.

    3. Pseudo Soriano*

      I have nothing to add except that I am jealous. I was in Madrid from Easter weekend until last Wednesday, and holy mother of San Isidro, did the rain in Spain ever get on my brain.

    4. TheCupcakeCounter*

      As I had snow and ice the first part of this week I want to hate you. However, I second the recommendation to keep very hydrated with some flavoring in the water to keep it interesting. Strawberry and cucumber is a particular favorite of mine but the ginger recommendation is also good.

    5. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      If you have the ability, try keeping a damp washcloth in the freezer and when you need a wake up, drape it over the back of your neck until it isn’t cold anymore. It’ll cool you off and wake you up. I also use this when I get so overheated that I start to feel sick/headachey.

      1. Anion*

        Exactly what I was going to suggest! I hate the heat and tend to get very tired and sick-feeling if I’m too hot (which is anytime the temp goes above 90F). So I use this trick a LOT. It really helps.

        (I used to rub my girls’ necks with a cold damp cloth and then blow on the backs of their necks, too, which they loved.)

    6. CBE*

      I pull all nighters frequently in my line of work. If I can’t get away for a brisk walk, I find a strong mint followed by ice water wakes me up pretty well for about an hour at a time.
      (Also once served as a cavity detector and THAT time it kept me awake for longer. Ow. Called the dentist first thing in the morning!)

    7. KR*

      I live in the desert so I understand your pain. If I have to go out and run work errands in the heat it just drains me. I end up getting milkshakes and being drained and sweaty all day. Wear loose clothes, splash a little water on your face and wrists, eat healthy foods with lots of water (fruits and veggies) and remember how cold it will be so very soon.

    8. mediumofballpoint*

      I’m a fan of the cheap little misting fans. When I was living in the desert, they were a godsend for keeping me alert when I needed to be.

    9. Totally Minnie*

      I find that eating a couple of mints and then drinking some cold water is a great way to wake myself up.

    10. bb-great*

      Cold running water on the inside of my wrists (and if possible my elbows) can help a lot. Cold water on your face and the back of your neck work really well too but might be harder at work. Also, weirdly, washing my feet makes me feel really refreshed, especially if I’m wearing sandals or flats with no socks.

    12. whistle*

      Apples supposedly contain a chemical that wakes you up. I eat an apple in the late afternoon when I don’t want more coffee, and it does seem to help.

    14. Sky Bison*

      My teaching friends say they wear uncomfortable clothes if they think they’re running that risk. Pinch-y shoes or an itchy sweater are the examples they gave. Something that’s annoying enough to keep you awake but not so annoying you hate your life.

      If you’re not actually speaking you can also do what I do in large ass meetings that drag on. I count things. Ceiling tiles, windows, how many people in the room are wearing glasses, how many of those people wearing glasses are women? How many people are carrying backpacks and how many have messenger bags. Count it all. How many minutes between students saying ‘um’, how many people spoke today in class etc. I will also do memory exercises so for instance what was the name of every teacher I’ve ever had, what is the name of every British monarch in order etc.

      But then sometimes I just doodle a shitload of ducks or cats on surfboards. You do what you need to do.

      1. Tort-ally Hare Brained*

        Omg I’ve found my people! When I doodle, it’s a surfing snail, his name is Stanley the Surfing Snail. I don’t really know why he’s surfing, but he has been for over a decade now.

    15. Nita*

      I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but are siestas not a thing any more? That seems like a brilliant way to cope with a hot climate, but I have no idea if this tradition has survived in the modern world.

      Personally, I find that sweet carbonated drinks chase sleepiness away very nicely, and that very light (but long) clothes make the heat easier but keep the sun off my skin. Still, this only goes so far… when it’s hot enough, staying active is very draining.

    16. essEss*

      If the smell isn’t too distracting for students, the smell of citrus is a wake up boost. https://sleep.org/articles/scents-to-wake-you-up/

    18. Matilda the Hun*

      Peppermint and vitamin C- not necessarily together :) when I worked late nights at a heavily-attended amusement park, I was popping peppermint Altoids regularly, and downing orange juice every time I was in the break room. Peppermint keeps your mind active, vitamin C keeps your body going. Can you make some peppermint iced tea to drink starting at lunch, and have orange juice/vitamin C tablets in the mornings?

    21. nep*

      Ice pack held on inside of wrists, inside elbows, on neck — can be quite refreshing and might help keep you awake.

    22. Koala dreams*

      Fruit or vegetables make me less sleepy, for example apple, orange or carrots. The cool running water on wrists trick is also good.

    24. Jennifleurs*

      I find pretty much the only thing that will keep me awake is talking to someone, for at least a minute or two. Something that actively engages the brain.

  6. BRR*

    I have a variation on the question of how to say that’s not my job. My newish manager oversees several very small teams. One team is not performing very well and my manager keeps asking me to do their tasks so the work will be done correctly and quickly (this team often doesn’t follow up on things).

    He recently emailed me a request that is pretty in depth and should 100% be the responsibility of this other team. Normally I would try Alison’s advice like, “If I keep doing A it’s going to take away the time I can spend on B” or “I’m not sure about that, I think Jane handles X” but those don’t feel right in this situation since my manager has been open about why he is asking me instead of them.

    I think with this specific request it’s the best time for me to address the overall situation but I’m not sure how to phrase, “Stop assigning me this team’s work because they suck at their jobs.”

    1. Lil Fidget*

      As long as its faster and easier to just have you do it, the manager is unlikely to change anything. Why should they, this is working great for them. I’d suggest letting them feel more pain, which is why the “I won’t be able to get to X today if I’m handling this” construction works great. Also, remember to save this up as ammunition when you request a raise. You’re clearly on your way to being invaluable to this manager.

      1. Where's the Le-Toose?*

        Totally agree! This came up at my work the other day, a general discussion among some of us managers that the head of our agency always takes the path of least resistance.

        So if the boss needs to assign something and can choose between irresponsible manager and good manager, the rational thought process is that the work is divided 50/50 and if the irresponsible manager doesn’t measure up, the boss would document the errors and then take action. But nope! Our boss assigns around the irresponsible manager and then overloads the good one.

        So BRR, like Lil recommends, until you start putting up resistance yourself, there is zero incentive for your boss to do anything differently.

        1. BRR*

          Thank you (and everyone!) for such great responses. It’s been difficult to put up resistance so far since most things have been small and really wouldn’t impact any deadlines. As I mentioned down thread I’m not sure if their performance issues are being addressed but I know my manager is aware and frustrated. Maybe my real question should be, how do I say “I’m not the solution to this team’s performance issues.”

          1. SierraSkiing*

            Perhaps you can draw on the pattern of an increasing number of small tasks from them when you’re talking to your manager: “Hey Manager, I just wanted to let you know: I’ve spent about 10% of my time the last couple of weeks working on projects that Team B normally should handle. That hasn’t cut into my work yet, but if I keep getting more complex tasks like [example] from them I’m worried that it’ll interfere with X. Can we set some boundaries on me doing work for Team B, so that we can make sure it doesn’t slow down our team’s work?”

    2. JokeyJules*

      I’m with lil fidget on this one.
      I would go with “I’m not able to get to X if I have to also do Y.” If they persist, you might want to consider offering to help out the team ONCE or offer insight or advisement on the task since they are having trouble. That can be a real slippery slope, though, so be careful to stand your ground.

    3. Temperance*

      Do you want to take over this team or join this team? If so, I would probably tell the manager that you’re happy to do their work if you can join that time in some sort of supervisory capacity. (If posisble!)

      I would probably push back if not, and let him know that you don’t have time because you’re doing X, Y, and Z today.

    4. Emilitron*

      Also consider “Yes, I can work on this if you think that’s the best solution. Going forward, is there a plan in place for making sure TeamB can handle this themselves? If it would help, I can get Jane to shadow me on this task today.” Okay, now that I look at these words, it’s a bit forceful for a first-approach script, but asking about training team B might still be a direction to try.

    5. foolofgrace*

      “If I keep doing A it’s going to take away the time I can spend on B”

      I don’t understand what’s wrong with that advice. It seems to be the best way to handle it. You could add something along the lines of “I’ve done my best to help out in the past but it has caused a great deal of stress, having to do two jobs, and if this keeps happening, my workload is going to suffer, and I need to know how you want it handled.”

      1. Triplestep*

        Agree. It makes no difference if your manager has been open about the reasons; there are only so many hours in a day. This is (at least partly) a time management issue that he needs to be made aware of since he apparently hasn’t come to the conclusion on his own.

      2. designbot*

        Also this can be used to play into a strategy that’s like, “I see why you’re using me as a short-term solution, but can we talk about a more long-term plan so that I can get back to focusing on my job?”

    6. lulu*

      I would have a larger conversation with your boss about this. “I noticed you have been assigning me work that usually falls under Team Delta’s purview. I understand that this comes from performance concerns, but I wanted to know how you plan to address this in the future. I don’t mind pitching in to help out occasionally, but I cannot handle their work on top of my regular duties.” So you’re not asking him why, you know why he’s doing it, you’re just telling him this is not a sustainable solution.

      1. Camellia*

        This. It’s not a matter of two things that are your job and which one has priority. This is NOT your job and I think this is a good script to bring that out into the open with your manager and try to get him to deal with the larger picture.

      2. Totally Minnie*

        I really like this approach. It shows that you acknowledge and understand the reason your boss has been giving you extra work, but that allowing the other team to continue as low performers creates an unsustainable workload for everyone else.

      3. Lindsay J*

        I like this one.

        It calls out that this in generally that team’s purview, not yours. It calls out the issue – that you can’t continue doing the work of two different teams all the time.

        However, it does leave the option of her saying that, in order to handle this in the future she will be re-prioritizing or reassigning some of your regular duties to have you continue doing the tasks she’s been assigning you. Which, as much as you want to feel that it’s not your job, as your manager she does have the power to decide that these tasks are now your job. So, straight up saying, “that’s not my job” feels a little out of touch.

        Hopefully you’ll find out that they’re in the process of managing the non-performers on the other team out, or upping their training in these areas, or something. However, if their plan is to keep on having you do those tasks, you’ll have to decide if that’s a hill you want to die on in this job. (And, even if it is a hill you want to die on, they may decide that having the person in your role do these tasks is more important to them than keeping you in the position, so that’s something to be prepared for).

      4. Not So NewReader*

        It’s true, he let you in on what is going on. This means it’s okay to mention the reason. Some people feel that if they are “covering” for others they cannot mention that they are covering for others. But your boss has already opened the topic with you, so there is no problem reopening again with him.

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      If it’s coming from your manager, you probably need to do it, but I would ask specifically, “what piece(s) of my normal work do you want me to put on hold to finish this?” Make your manager prioritize this for you, so you both have clear visibility into what isn’t getting done, and your manager is making an explicit choice. Then if that becomes a pain point for you or your department make sure that’s visible for your manager too (professionally, of course). As in, “I wasn’t able to finish Y because you asked me to do X instead, and now Project Llama Mama is going to be late because the hand off was delayed. How do you want us to handle that?”

      Don’t let your other tasks end up invisible to your manager, but maintain a cheerfully professional attitude about the extra work. If it causes enough problems, maybe your manager will step up and actually take care of the real issue which is the other team not doing their work well enough.

      As for longer term, if Manager continues to request that you do work that should be done by the other team for longer than a couple weeks or so, I would then ask “it seems like you’re asking me to do department ABC’s work on a regular basis at this point. Are we changing my job description to include that type of work for the long term? What type of work will we be asking ABC to do and what will fall to me?” And bring up any concerns you have based on you manager’s answer. You’re not arguing necessarily, but you are surfacing issues and keeping it fresh in your Manager’s mind. What you don’t want is for your manager to just shove it off on you because it’s easier, without making Manager explicitly and knowingly choose to do so. I know that’s kind of a weird distinction, but so many times decisions get made simply by following the path of least resistance or inertia, and you don’t want that to be the case here.

      And maybe later, if your job description creeps a bit, you can leverage a raise out of it.

    8. CBE*

      Saying “not my job” to your manager (even if worded super well) isn’t a great strategy.
      WHY don’t you want to do it?
      Is it because you have a heavy workload already? If so, then absolutely ask about prioritizing. “I can do that, but I’m concerned about the projects already assigned to me. Which one should I put off in order to prioritize this one?”
      Is it because you’re not qualified? Speak up about your concerns. “Are you sure I’m the right person for this? Jane has much more knowledge about running reports in the llama tracking software.”
      Is it because you just don’t wanna? Suck it up and do what your boss is telling you to do. He’s been clear about why, and it’s pretty normal for managers to assign people to do work.
      He’s a newish manager, who probably has immediate deadlines and a long term coaching job on his hands. He needs your help on this, has explained why, asked you to do it, and you’re not really giving any good reason why you don’t want to do it, other than “not my job”

      1. Ama*

        I think that’s a little harsh. BRR has proven they are a good worker and their “reward” is to have to clean up after another team that’s not pulling their weight. They are within their rights to point out that this isn’t a viable long term solution.

        1. Michelle*

          I agree Ama. There is a meme out there about the reward for doing your job well is that you get to do other people’s jobs, too. If the long term plan is for BRR to keep cleaning up behind that team, it’s a bad plan and it might push BRR to look at other options/job search. It’s fine to help out colleagues now and then, but it seems this is a pretty regular thing.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I think CBE’s point is that there’s value in being clear about why specifically this isn’t a viable long term solution. Particularly the point about just not wanting to be the go-to person for that work. Prioritizing and qualifications are relatively easy conversations to have.

        The one about not wanting Task A to become your primary job function when you were hired for, and prefer, Task B is pretty difficult (because that sounds the most like “not my job”) but still important (because the OP could easily choose to leave if their career path is changing without their input and in a direction they don’t like). There is already a team that’s supposed to do Task A. The manager’s job is to get the team to be functional, not to use OP as a bandaid.

      3. BRR*

        These are great clarification questions about the issue. That I need to clearly articulate why. The biggest reason is probably that by this team not doing their job, it is making my job (and many other people’s jobs) much more difficult and me doing their work is not going to solve the issue. They’re not overworked; I’m more than happy to help out when people have more tasks than hours in the day. They’re simply producing less than they should be and at a lower quality than they should be. I’m not sure if performance issues have been addressed with them.

        1. Green Goose*

          I think this is really valid to say to your manager, and maybe even turn it into a question about what your manager’s future plans are with this team.

          “I understand why you have been asking me to cover Team B’s work because they are not producing at the level that is necessary for the job, and I’ve been happy to support you while you figure out what to do about this issue. However, me taking over their responsibilities in addition to my own is not a manageable or permanent solution and I’m curious what your plans are around addressing Team B’s productivity in the long-run.”

        2. Mephyle*

          To add to that, there is also the factor that in the long term, if this trend continues instead of being dealt with, it could lead to a division-of-duties creep in which Team B’s substandard performance gets rewarded by having more and more of their tasks passed on to competent people. OP said that they have time to do it now, but if it gets worse, that may not be the case in the future.

          1. BRR*

            “Team B’s substandard performance gets rewarded by having more and more of their tasks passed on to competent people” Too late. Three of us are having to monitor their work, make corrections, and are getting delegated their tasks.

          2. Mephyle*

            Not so much ‘too late’, then, as that it strengthens your case for Something Must Be Done, because the creep is already happening.

    9. Eye of Sauron*

      I’ve been in the same spot as you. Ultimately I bit my tongue and did the work. Sometimes I was not very successful in biting my tongue with my boss. In the end, though, I was promoted and the other team’s manager is currently ‘exploring options outside of the company’ (our way of saying fired).

    10. Nesprin*

      How about numbers? how many times have you covered for lousy coworkers in the last couple of months? Total time invested? # of incidents where covering caused your work to be delayed? This seems to me like the sort of thing that you should ask for a meeting with your boss about and bring numbers to show that this is a problem.

    11. Free Meerkats*

      You need to make sure if you say, “Doing A will cause the delivery of B to slip to the right,” that it actually slips to the right. Don’t obviously slack off, but don’t work yourself into exhaustion to do your job AND their job AND get everything done on deadline.

      You mention below that them not doing their job makes yours more difficult. Is there a way to make this more evident? Talk with the others whose work is being delayed because of the other team and speak as a group to your managers?

    12. Observer*

      Actually, this is a PERFECT time to deploy Alison’s script. Right now, it’s easier for her to assign you the work instead of managing that team. So, she needs to understand the real cost to taking this path. It needs to stop being easier to assign you the work than to manage. And the only way to do that is to make it clear what you will have to drop to make it happen.

    13. Gutrot*

      How about “if I have to do the sucky teams work, why don’t you promote me to Team Leader and let me sort them out properly”

  7. Susan K*

    I am working on a project to reduce my department’s paper consumption. A big part of this effort is getting people to view documents electronically instead of printing them, and to that end, the company has purchased a brand new iPad pro and Apple pencil for each employee in the department.

    I totally expected to encounter some resistance and complaints because a lot of people just don’t like change, but I underestimated the degree of resistance, especially when it comes to the iPads. I figured that even people who aren’t open to paper reduction would at least be interested in getting a cool new device, but no…

    There are people who refuse to take their iPads out of the box. The company has a walk-in help desk where IT professionals will help employees set up their iPads, but the iPad haters won’t go. A lot of people are unwilling to even try very minor things, such as viewing a meeting agenda on their iPads instead of printing hard copies, let alone more complex changes like learning to use some specialized apps. People are saying things like, “You can have my paper agendas when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.”

    I’m trying to figure out ways to encourage people, in a positive way, to use their iPads. I don’t want to be a jerk about it, say, by banning hard-copy agendas (not that I have the authority to do that, but even if I did, I’m not going to sabotage a meeting over 12 sheets of paper), but I’d like to give some incentive for people to at least try using the iPads. I was thinking about maybe offering to bring in donuts if everyone in the department registers their iPads by a certain date, or if everyone uses the iPad app to log inventory at least once (instead of writing it on a piece of paper and then entering it on the computer). I am also trying to come up with something that could be a friendly competition, like a prize for the person who brings their iPad to the most meetings this month or something. I’m not sure if people would respond to these things, though, or if they would just find them silly or patronizing and ignore them (not to mention the potential pitfall of a food reward that not everyone likes or can eat). Also, I don’t think I can use the department’s budget for this type of thing, so the donuts or whatever would probably have to come out of my own pocket, which I can swing a few times but not, say, every week.

    So, any thoughts/advice/suggestions on this? Good idea/bad idea?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Can you make some tasks much easier and faster on the ipad? That would incentivize me to do it – show me how it will actually make my job more efficient.

      1. Susan K*

        Well, that’s the idea of this — not only to save money and reduce waste, but work more efficiently. The problem is that people aren’t even willing to try, and if they won’t take their iPads out of the box, they’re not going to see that it actually is more convenient to do some things on the iPad rather than write it on a piece of paper and then type it into the computer.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          People like to take NOTES on their hardcopy agenda. I find it much harder to take notes on an iPad (and I looooove my iPad)!

          1. Luna*

            Yeah, while there might be some people who are complaining because they just don’t like change, it would be useful to keep in mind that something that one person finds more convenient can be LESS convenient to someone else.

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            I was just thinking this. My husband is more tech friendly than I am, but he spent about 15 seconds trying to take sample notes on an ipad before saying “So you’ll want a laptop with a keyboard.”

            Two things going on here, I think:
            • Mental pathways. Like using a QWERTY keyboard, it doesn’t matter that there are better keyboard configurations if my motor memory knows this one.
            • Tablet-y things are good for storing or passively consuming content–read a book, watch a video. They are awful for entering information. Are these tasks immediately, clearly easier with the tablet if you just try once? I recall when Home Depot first introduced self check-out, and soon the only two cashiers would each have a dozen people in line–people who had learned the hard way that there was no way they were actually getting out of the store with this item via the self check-out, it was just a trap to lure them into giving up their place in line. Now Home Depot has self check outs that usually work–but I skip Target’s, knowing it will probably lead to cursing, piling my animal food back in the cart, and going to stand in line for a human anyhow.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              Also, nothing you mention would remotely inspire me to use the tablet. Only it making something easier than the way I do it now–and by that I don’t mean “easier if everything works right the first time, so failures don’t count.”

        2. LKW*

          Mid-day send out an invite for cake. People with paper agendas won’t know it’s happening. Don’t buy enough cake to feed everyone, first come first served. Make it in an out of the way conference room where they would be unlikely to see it while walking by. Eventually they’ll learn to use their iPads.

        3. Observer*

          Firstly, they shouldn’t need to take the thing out of the box and set it up and then experiment and try is out in order to find out IF it’s easier or not. These things should have been set up for them – at least the basics, with ONLY the personalization left to them. The fact that they are the ones who need to take the time and make the effort to make this thing usable is a barrier by itself. But it also tells them that YOUR idea of “making things easier” almost certainly does NOT match theirs.

          Beyond the set up, why should they take the time to experiment with a new way of doing things that may or may not actually end up being easier? Even if you could be 100% sure that it would be, why do you expect that to translate to THEIR certainty of that? And since they are not certain, why would they spend the time? On the other hand, why have you not outlines clearly and simply how this is going to help them. If you have not done so then you need to do it ASAP. If it’s not something that’s realistic to do, that tells you that there is actually a good chance that it WILL NOT make things easier for them.

          1. Susan K*

            Unfortunately, that is not how it works here. I can’t personally set up the iPads for them because they need to enter their password at various points along the way. IT will set it up for them if they bring it to the help desk, or they will walk them through it over the phone, but I can’t do that on their behalf.

            Why should they take the time to do it? Same reason they should do any other part of their job, even if they don’t like it: because it’s part of the job they are getting paid to do. Management’s vision for the department is to do things electronically instead of on paper. There is a plan for all the changes that are being made for this project, including the reasoning and the expected benefits of each change, and it has been presented to the entire department. Could management just order people to do it under threat of disciplinary action? Sure, but I don’t think that’s generally a good way to implement changes.

            1. Observer*

              I get that you don’t have the power to hand them fully set up iPads, but you should realize that it IS a real barrier. The password thing should not be an issue, unless they need to put their network passwords in. Otherwise, you put in a password, tell them what it is and have them change the password to whatever they want.

              The problem with “it’s their job” is, that it really is not their job. You’re trying to push them into doing something that is not core to their work and which you think will make them more efficient, but they think will not.

              When management gets the input app done, that will be different – THEN you can say “we need input done this way” and they are going to need to adjust. Till that happens, you are on shaky ground.

              And, by the way, even when using a computer or any other device is mandatory, it is not unreasonable to make sure that people are given already set up equipment that only needs final personalization.

    2. Gollum*

      I would be ONE OF THOSE people. I cannot process information well on a screen. I have outlook/google calenders, email etc and if it is really important, I print it out. Sooo.. that said, I really don’t have any tips for you because screens simply don’t work well for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      1. Snark*

        Consuming incredible amounts of paper doesn’t really work in general, though. Printing stuff out is incredibly wasteful.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          I always feel a little bristly when people come at me about one specific environmental impact they want me to prioritize. Unless you’re doing good, thoughtful cradle-to-grave environmental work, there’s usually some other reason you’ve picked this ONE thing and are deciding this is the hill to die on and I need to jump in line right now. Why is the water wasted by the company’s unnecessary flushes, or the impermeable surface area of the massive parking lot, or the toxic chemicals being mined and then discarded for those ipads, or the coal power being used up to power the office (including the computers) all “just part of business” or whatever but my printing agendas is now equivalent to clubbing baby seals? How did that get picked, instead of providing reusable grocery bags or better guidance on recycling across our sector?

          1. Lucky*

            ^^^This. You drive an SUV to work every day, Carol. Don’t tell me that my use of paper is what’s killing all the polar bears.

          2. Snark*

            Because employees choosing to print out emails and agendas is something they can directly control. That’s something YOU can prioritize. Unless individual employees get decision-making power about replacing toilets with low-flow models, installing solar roofs and green swales in the parking lot, and dictating mining regulations in various foreign countries, there’s really nothing they can personally do about those factors. Those factors can and should be addressed, but not by the employee; those are company- and nation- level policy decisions far outside their hands.

            But you can bring the agenda to a meeting on the tablet provided you for free.

            And I do think there’s a lot of companies that pluck low-hanging fruit rather than focusing on holistic improvements to environmental process, but even if it’s low hanging fruit, it’s still a significant environmental factor.

            1. Lil Fidget*

              Actually I think you’ve put your finger on why it’s irking me – they have gone with the option that shuttles the problem down to ME to make behavioral changes so they can feel “green,” instead of the option that the company thinks strategically about their impact across the field and makes the required changes/sacrifices to have meaningful impact. My printing an agenda doesn’t change the world, but my company’s exploitation of minerals in third world countries actually probably does.

              1. Snark*

                Except that millions of people printing off agendas every day in every office absolutely does have an aggregate impact.

                1. Iris Eyes*

                  From a cost-to-benefit perspective is the purchase of 2! pieces of technology for every employee outweigh the benefit that could come from another source for the same dollar amount?

                  Since some people are still going to print things would it be a better use of IT time to have all printers default to double sided printing? Reformatting things so that they print on less pages?

                  Also pre-loading Candy Crush on said iPads would probably go along way to getting them out of the boxes. I have seen no other app so widely adopted by the “non-tech” people.

          3. Susan Sto Helit*

            I assume it’s because offices use huge amounts of paper, and a lot of the time you really could get away with not printing it. It’s a manageable action. Similarly, cycle-to-work schemes, or public transport initiatives, are something that the company can achieve without making massive changes to the office environment or adversely affecting the lives of their employees.

            Suggesting that your employees only flush the toilet in certain circumstances, or that your parking lot be replaced with a giant muddy field, on the other hand, is going to make your employees hugely unhappy and your company look insane.

            It’s never an all-or-nothing situation. I can decide to improve the environment by reducing my paper consumption while also accepting that other things I do (like having the office fan running all day) are bad for the environment. At least my net effect this way is slightly less bad.

            1. Lil Fidget*

              I agree that’s the tradeoffs individuals choose to make. And that’s not all or nothing. But in this case, the company is saying, I don’t care if you run the fan all day, I don’t care that most people commute 45 miles alone in an SUV every day, I don’t care that we throw our industrial waste into a landfill without paying extra to recycle it, but anybody I catch printing a paper agenda is going to get it.

              1. Susan Sto Helit*

                You have no idea whatsoever if that’s the only thing this company is doing, though. Maybe they have all sorts of other initiatives going on at the same time? The question is about this one specific one.

                If you had a very strong reason for needing to keep a paper agenda, I guess there are other things you could suggest as a compromise – perhaps getting in a supply of lower-quality recycled paper to be used in one specific printer for things like meeting agendas that won’t leave the building. Or come up with an alternative cut-down initiative that might suit your working needs better. But try to work with the company, rather than fighting them.

              2. Snark*

                Again, though, your examples are flawed, because they’re fundamentally different decisions made at different levels. They can’t dictate what car you drive. They should recycle industrial waste, but you, personally, are not concerned with that and have no decisionmaking power. But they can tell you not to print out agendas and emails and stuff. That’s the one thing that’s come up here which they can tell you to do, and which you have the power to make the decision on.

          4. pleaset*

            THIS.

            It would so annoy me having to navigate through an ipad instead of taking notes on a yellow sheet of paper. I’m sometimes so busy at work – please don’t make my life harder with stuff like this.

            1. curly sue*

              Same. I find it much, much more difficult to process text electronically, especially if it’s anything that requires highlighting or marginalia. I have an iPad at home that I use a lot for email and games, but serious reading? I can make it maybe five or six pages before my cognitive functions go offline. I order physical copies of books at the uni library as an accommodation whenever I can because the ebook versions are painful. Maybe it’s a brain function thing, I don’t know – it’s certainly not a lack of practice or technical knowledge.

              I’m fast on a keyboard, faster with notes by hand, but there is no way I can keep up in a meeting if I’m expected to take notes on a tablet. Too much cognitive function goes into making the dratted fake keyboard work and register presses and then figure out how to get the files out of it in the end. I’d end up copying the agenda by hand into a moleskin or something and bringing my hardcopy with me that way.

              1. JaneB*

                There’s solid research showing that taking notes by hand is better for retention and understanding than typing etc., and whilst you said they got the pen things (I don’t have a tablet), what I understand from tablet users is that many people find them REALLY hard to take notes on.

                I get that folks not TRYING is frustrating, but having TRIED new initiatives (it will be quicker to comment on essays on screen!) and found that they didn’t work well FOR ME (it was slower because the app is fussy and requires lots of changing of tools to do different things, and I gave myself a postural migraine from the amount of mouse use needed after trying it for half a day (no key commands because it’s a Very Modern App and I rely heavily on key commands to reduce mouse use for health reasons)), then been told off by my boss for not liking them, I’m increasingly inclinded to just not try new stuff. And I LIKE tech and novelty (although I hope the tech has great insurance as I am HARD on gadgets). Many people don’t, especially older workers who maybe don’t have or want these things at home.

                1. FedLiz*

                  You can take handwritten notes on an iPad Pro with a pencil. It’s one of the main reasons I got mine.

          5. Starbuck*

            The “why aren’t you doing all these other things first” argument is a weak one. You gotta start somewhere, and looks like that was what they could get the company to agree to support. Just because you can’t do everything at once doesn’t mean that something isn’t better than nothing! I work in the conservation field and this attitude makes me so sad. There are NEVER enough resources or time (or willpower) to do every environmentally conscious action at once. When I hear responses like yours, I hear “I would rather do NOTHING.”

          6. Specialk9*

            They’re all good points, but it kinda sounds self serving. You shouldn’t have to do it the part that’s within reach and easy because this other huge difficult thing’s not being done by other people. Mm-hm.

          7. mediumofballpoint*

            Yup! My company recently went to a model where they took away our regular sized garbage cans and recycling bins and instead gave us big recycling bins and teeny tiny garbage cans we have to empty ourselves. It’s supposed to encourage more recycling and mindfulness about creating waste, but practically, I just bring in garbage bags, use the recycling bin as a garbage can, and no longer bother to separate trash from recycling because it’s too much of an inconvenience. I’m creating more waste than I was before because the incentives were completely flipped. I feel vaguely bad about it, but I think it’s a dumb system and I’m not going to go out of my way to find a workaround.

            1. Elizabeth H.*

              We have that at my office too. Your attitude seems really childish. If you have time enough to post comments on Ask a Manager, and to bring in trash bags from home, surely you have enough time for the “inconvenience” of separating trash from recycling.

        2. Luna*

          Paper is recyclable. Mining the materials that go into all those fancy tech devices is also terrible for the environment (not to mention the way many of the miners are treated can be questionable at best). There is no one perfect solution, everything has its trade-offs.

          1. Lil Fidget*

            Well and so often it’s actually kind of a crapshoot. (I do recycle and try to reduce printing, by the way! These are just things I think about a lot!). There are some things that use more water and energy to recycle than is saved by not disposing of them. Or you’re trading air emissions for space in landfills, which might be kind of a shrug in terms of toxic consequences. What irks me is companies explaining I need to change my behavior in a relatively small likely meaningless way, while continuing to be lazy and cheap about something MUCH more impactful. They would make a bigger dent in climate change by reducing their AC by one degree than by harassing me about printing meeting agendas. And I’d be more willing to do the latter if I saw them doing the former.

          2. Snark*

            That’s very dependent on the company’s policies. Apple, in particular, has been going above and beyond.

        3. Lead, Follow or Get Out of the Way!*

          And for those who learn and take in information better with something printed? Please realize one size doesn’t fit all regardless of how hard you try.

          1. Snark*

            I have a really, really hard time believing that preferring printed paper vs. a screen is an inherent learning and processing need.

            1. Frankie*

              When I’m doing really intense editing, I print out everything I need to edit and do it by hand. I catch errors I missed on the screen 10 minutes beforehand. It’s just different, and I do a much better job, and can keep more of the text in my head as well to comprehend it as a whole better.

              There’s a lot of research being done on differences in cognitive processing when using screens vs. paper, which you could check out. I work on a college campus so it’s a constant topic of discussions, whether students are better served with hard copy textbooks and whether they digest things as fully when consuming them electronically. There does seem to be some difference.

              I try not to print wastefully but printing some important stuff absolutely helps me do a better job.

            2. Elizabeth H.*

              Are you serious? This is so well established. There are many other factors related to use of electronic devices vs. analog implements, such as ergonomics (body position, hand strain, posture, eye strain) and attention allocation issues.

            3. Observer*

              There is actually a LOT of good evidence that for many people & situations, this really is the case, though.

        4. Observer*

          Making people use tools that don’t work for them ALSO doesn’t really work in general.

    3. Yolo*

      Is there a mechanism that you can ensure people have enough time to set up and get acquainted with the device without their other tasks suffering? Like can they be told they have 1-2 paid hours (if hourly) or a reduction in billable requirements (if you’re under that kind of scheme) during a single pay period at which time they are expected to sign on and set up email or something?

      1. Susan K*

        I don’t really have the authority to do that, but I could talk to my manager and see if she is willing to assign people to set up their iPads on specific days. Most people have plenty of time but choose to spend it on Facebook or playing with their phones instead.

        1. Seriously?*

          I think you may need a manager to make setting up the iPad mandatory. They are refusing because right now it is optional and it is not something they want to do. If a manager schedules everyone times to set up the iPad then refusing becomes a disciplinary matter. Then once everyone has it set up, have a mandatory training session where you walk everyone though key applications. If people are dead set against learning how to use the iPads, there is not way to incentive them into doing it (other than giving them extra money if they do).

          1. Lindsay Gee*

            Something you could do, for example the meeting agendas, would be to not provide the agenda in advance for them to print it off. Email to everyone: “Just as a reminder, the agenda for today’s meeting will be available at 10 am at the start of the meeting on the shared drive, so don’t forget your ipad to be able to access it!” it’s a little passive aggressive, but it creates consequences for the team members NOT using the ipads for their intended purpose. They can’t function at the meeting, or contribute as effectively- which leaves opportunities for the manager to do/say something.
            Maybe it’s petty, maybe not the best example- but there HAS to be consequences to employees NOT using the ipads. I think your intentions of wanting to be friendly about this isn’t going to work if they’re being that stubborn about it.

            1. pleaset*

              Or just put it up on a screen in the meeting or write it on a whiteboard – then tell them everyone it will be up to see and so there is no need to print unless they really need to. That makes things EASIER for them, rather a chore they need to be reminded about.

              Oh, and good meetings should have agendas provided in advance – not for printing but for thinking. If you get to the point where agendas are kept away from people to save paper, it seems priorities are way out of whack.

            2. DDJ*

              I’m not sure that making the agenda available only at the beginning of the meeting is effective – part of the point of an agenda is to allow people to prepare for the topics that will be discussed/reviewed in the meeting. I prefer to have the agenda at least a day in advance so I can make sure there’s nothing I need to brush up on prior.

        2. Iris Eyes*

          Brilliant! You have the answer right there under your nose. Facebook gets blocked on computers but is still available on tablets. Sometimes the social media carrot is mightier than the stick :)

      2. Ama*

        I think this is a good point. I’m pretty tech savvy but I got a little irritated last year when my office decided to replace my laptop without warning me, because they showed up with the new laptop right in the middle of a major project with a firm deadline and I literally did not have the extra time to do all the settings adjustments and file transfers one needs to do with a new computer (especially since they also upgraded both our Office suite and the operating system so I had to also learn everything that changed from the previous version). I managed to convince them to let me keep my old laptop until I got past the deadline, and then I actually had time to make the full switchover.

      3. designbot*

        This! There is a program at work that I’m one of the latest adopters of, and it totally came down to, in order to learn this thing which will save time/money/whatever in the long run, I need some extra time Right Now, that I just don’t have. So I kicked the can down the road again, and again, and again… because I didn’t have 10 extra minutes to figure out how to send an attachment and file an email a different way, I barely had the 30 seconds to send the email in the first place.

    4. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I think you can say, without being a jerk about it, that it is now an essential part of their job to utilize the company provided iPad. I would liken it to people who are resistant to reading their email, or refusing a company provided cell phone. Start to make less important items available only on the iPad to start to get them into the habit of using them.

          1. Grapey*

            Did she mention that elsewhere? I don’t see anything in her original comment about it being a directive. Sometimes my own bosses throw out these pie in the sky ideas but they are wishy washy when it comes to enforcement. OP asking “good idea/bad idea” doesn’t sound like it was a directive from on high, more of a “if you can get people to play along with your pet project, go for it.” (Surprised they paid for iPads if that was the case…)

            My own personal experience with this: I had to move everyone over to a new wiki system (with the directive ‘get people to send you the exported pages they want to keep’) and people didn’t actually convert their old pages into what I needed unless my boss told their boss to tell them it needed to be done.

            The person in charge of bringing the horses to the water can’t always make them drink.

            1. Lara*

              *shrug* personally I think it’s really weird that so many people are refusing to use new technology provided by the company. Maybe they need training? Or are frightened of breaking them? I guess it would run about $1000 to replace and maybe some of the staff are leery because they don’t have the funds?

          3. Specialk9*

            People here talk about “insubordination” a lot, but outside of military infused cultures I’ve never really heard that in real life.

            1. Clairels*

              Agreed. Crying “insubordination” is one step below “threaten them with beatings.”

        2. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          People used to think that of computers, email, and then smart phones too. I see so many companies now using tablets (of various manufacture) to do business that it isn’t really going to be “optional” in the future. I can’t even go to a restaurant these days without the food server taking my order on a tablet which is linked directly to the kitchen.

        3. Grapey*

          Yeah I’m still not sure if this is being mandated by bosses or if OP just had a project she had an idea for and management gave her permission to try to convert people.

          I’m tech savvy (I build robots ffs) but my note taking only works if it’s manual, and I wouldn’t carry around an iPad for notes unless my job was on the line over it.

    5. CTT*

      I’m not sure about the prize thing – I don’t think incentives would help because I would imagine the issue isn’t “I don’t feel like using this” (which an incentive would encourage) vs “I have a way I like to work and someone is trying to stop me from doing it without allowing me to opt-in”. How is your work set up – do people work in departments or teams? If so, is there at least one person who likes using the iPad within those departments/teams? You could talk to them about evangelizing for it. If people really like their hard-copy agendas, it’s probably because they like being able to mark them up, quickly flip pages, etc., and don’t want to have to worry about being tripped up by that in a meeting. If there’s someone in their group who can say “Actually, I’ve found it’s been easy to move to an electronic agenda, here’s how I’ve been using it…” that might be more helpful than working with IT (I worked with a few very stubborn people who hated going to IT because they “just don’t understand how I work” – so if it’s coming from an actual coworker it might be better received)

      1. Susan K*

        At the moment, this initiative is limited to my department, and I am that person within the department. At meetings, when someone tries to hand me an agenda, I say, “Oh, thanks, but I don’t need one — I’ve got it on my iPad.” There are a few other people who have willingly accepted the iPads, and they voluntarily bring them to meetings and use them without being asked. My hope is that, once people give it a try and get used to it, they will see for themselves that there are advantages to using the iPads, but they are too stubborn to try. That’s what made me think of using some other form of motivation just to get them to try it.

        1. CTT*

          You’re seeing it as “they don’t want to try” and they’re seeing it as “this is fundamentally changing how I work.” A prize for bringing it in to the most meetings isn’t going to address that issue. I can’t tell from your original post – have you had any trainings on using it? A situation where food would get people in the door and willing to try it might be a lunch-and-learn session.

          1. Lil Fidget*

            Yeah hmm, there’s something a little off about the tone of the comments Susan K, that I see in a lot of the consultants that come into our office. They know they’re right but they don’t really understand the barriers to switching to what they want us to do – we’re just “lazy” or “defiant” or whatever. Mostly it’s that we’re busy people with a lot of priorities other than whatever their new interest of the day is, and we’ve seen a lot of initiatives come and go.

            1. Chaordic One*

              Agreed. I can totally get that the employees see this as being an unwanted piece of burdensome, hard-to-learn-to-use technology that further complicates their lives and is being “foisted” on them. There’s probably a good case to be made that there is no upside to it in their day-to-day work lives.

              I also have to say, that in my experience, training from I.T. is not much of an incentive and actually kind of a demotivator. So many I.T. people are full of jargon, while being disturbingly verbally inarticulate. They really don’t seem to understand what we actually do with the information in the databases, and how we add to that information, or the order of the steps we go through in using the databases. When there’s a problem they’re almost always, “Well that’s the way it is, it’s too complicated and expensive to change, so live with it.”

          2. Susan K*

            We have done training on the specialized app that our department is using, but not on how to use an iPad in general. However, there is a walk-in IT help desk that is basically like the company’s version of an Apple store where IT professionals provide one-on-one help with getting the iPads set up and showing people how to use them. I can say with confidence that a lunch-and-learn session isn’t going to fly; it’s a union environment and people aren’t going to give up their lunch break for training, even for free food.

            1. mediumofballpoint*

              I think training on the iPads would help. If you have older or not as tech savvy workers, they’re really not as intuitive as you might think, and if folks have to figure out how to work the stupid thing just to get to the work they actually need to do, that’s definitely going to add to the resistance.

            2. CTT*

              Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that you are strongly encouraging people to use iPads, but that they have to learn how to use them on their own time. That’s going to be a barrier for some people! My dad has been using computers in his work daily since the 1980s and loves new technologies, but he still has issues using my mom’s iPad because it’s an entirely new type of hardware to what he’s used to. It’s great that you’ve made IT people available, but this is still new technology to a lot of people and they’re going to have to learn how to use it and potentially struggle with it, which will slow down their work along the way. Also, that you didn’t provide iPad training but did provide specialized app training could send a message to some people that they’re already expected to know how to use an iPad and might be embarrassed to ask for help.

              1. Susan K*

                I guess I assumed that most people are familiar with how to use this kind of device, because most (if not all) of them have smartphones, which work in a very similar way. I would think that most people are going to feel insulted if they are required to attend training on how to turn on an iPad and open an app. But either way, we didn’t provide general iPad training because that is something the IT department already provides and we didn’t see the need to reinvent the wheel. We encourage people to go to IT to set up their iPads (but it is not required if they would prefer to do it themselves), and our IT department is very good — they will teach people the basics if needed, but not waste people’s time telling them things they already know.

                Anyway, I will talk to the people who are refusing to use their iPads and see if I can find out if their issue is about needing more training, and if that is what’s holding them back, I can either help them one-on-one or refer them to IT.

                1. DDJ*

                  Since your IT walk-up desk allows people to get one-on-one training, do you think you might be able to get a few IT people willing to set up actual appointments with people, where they could work with that person in their own workspace, rather than at the IT desk? And it could be a calendar appointment? Making it FEEL more structured to some of those who are resistant might help.

                  We have a walk-up IT desk at our location and still, whenever we go through upgrades or system changes, every person going through the change gets a one-on-one appointment, at their desk, to go through it. And here’s the thing: if someone is uncomfortable using an iPad at all, they probably don’t want to broadcast that to everyone. And even as you say, “I assumed that most people are familiar with how to use this kind of device,” if someone has any type of smartphone other than an iPhone, it’s not always as intuitive as you might think to use other Apple products. The perception that “everyone already knows how to use this” might be part of the problem, because anyone who doesn’t can end up feeling really embarrassed about it. Saying “I don’t want to” doesn’t earn the same judgement as “I don’t know how to.”

                  I think that talking to the people who are resistant is definitely a good plan. Just find out what the actual problem is. It might be something along the lines of “I really process by writing things out, and I find it difficult to maintain that experience on a tablet.” At which point I’m not sure if there’s maybe a specific app that they could be introduced to that would give them that similar experience.

                2. Guacamole Bob*

                  Downloading and installing stuff on your personal phone is different than a company environment, though. Are you giving people clear instructions for which apps to download and how to get those apps synced up with company email and document sharing? Are there IT security measures they need to understand or protocols to follow?

                  I’m pretty good with technology overall, but “here’s an iPad, start using it to collaboratively edit documents with your colleagues” would not make me excited to dive in. File management is something I never do on my phone, so if I were to start using it even for my own notes in a work context I’d have to figure how how to save all those notes to my work servers somehow. Does my IT department allow us to use google docs? Is there an Office365 app that would sync with my work account?

                  You might try at least creating a cheat sheet of some sort with guidance for getting started on the things that are needed for your work environment.

                3. Falling Diphthong*

                  I got a smart phone for email and maps. That is, “I got an X so I could Y.” The tablets are not solving a problem that most people realize they have. Sometimes people don’t care until they try, then become a passionate convert–that’s why I have glide floss and a memory foam mattress–but it needs to really be BETTER when they try it. “It’s paperless” isn’t better for these people. “It’s faster” might be.

                4. Observer*

                  I think you are missing an important point here. Using a phone is rather different than using an ipad in the ways you are envisioning things. So, to the extent people need training, it’s not in how to open an app, it’s how to use this THING to do something that I never do on my phone.

                  Also, iPads don’t even always work just like iPhones, much less Androids. It’s not THAT different, sure, but it can be enough to throw off people who are not techie.

                5. CTT*

                  I use my iPhone all the time, but if you handed me an iPad I wouln’t know how to edit documents on it. Like others have been saying, it’s not as intuitive for everyone. (And also there is a lot more on the spectrum of Knowing How To Use Technology than just “knowing how to turn it on” and “feeling comfortable using something professionally.”)

                6. AcademiaNut*

                  I’m very tech savvy, and use multiple operating systems and devices. But it’s not about knowing how to turn on an iPad and open apps – the issue is that it is going to take time and mental energy to learn how to use the iPad apps to do things you were doing with a pen and paper earlier. And it’s going to take time to get proficient on the new methods so you can do it without consciously thinking about it.

                  And during that time, you will be doing things less efficiently. So is your employer willing to accept a noticeable drop in productivity while people learn the new system? Are you willing to slow meetings down until people get used to using the onscreen keyboard and stylus, and pause while people sort out how to do things that were completely automatic before?

                  As an example – for a project I’m working on we were told we needed to use Sphinx for documentation. I quite liked it once I learned how to use it, but I put off learning it until I had a slow period where I could dedicate a few days to figuring it out, and then gradually port over my documentation.

                  Also, regarding the environmental impact – if that were given to me as the reason, I would definitely be asking for a breakdown of the environmental impact of paper, given that I recycle, and reuse one sided printouts for taking notes, vs an iPad over the typical lifespan of a device.

            3. Lara*

              Well tbf work related training shouldn’t happen on a lunch break. But if their managers can release them for 2 hours that could be a really good idea.

        2. Seriously?*

          Can you convince the department to stop printing agendas for people? That way if they want a paper one there are extra steps involved.

          1. ABK*

            Seems like there needs to be a transition period where some people are using Ipads and some people are using paper still. This period would like many months, probably up to a year, but slowly people will acclimate until you are only printing agendas for the few sticks in the very thick mud. This would also accomplish your green initiative by greatly reducing paper use. Going from 0 to 100 is too aggressive.

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            Yeah, you need to change the environment so that using the tablet is the default because it’s easier.

        3. misspiggy*

          I’d choose another type of document rather than meeting agendas to push on. A lot of people use meeting agendas to take notes on. If they’re not using the agendas, they’ll be using notepaper, so not much of a win for the environment.

          Is there any form of documentation you could promote that people can’t conceivably need in hard copy, once they get used to reading on screens?

          Bear in mind, though, that a lot of people will have significant vision problems. They might have evolved one way of coping with these using paper, and may find total reliance on screens worrying because they don’t yet have adjustment strategies in place. Or they may just not have developed the muscle-memory skills of using touchscreens quickly enough to fluidly work with them.

          It’s pretty unpleasant being instantly disempowered by a technology switch. Not to say you can’t make people use the tablets, but there will be a lot of legitimate anxiety around it that should be recognised.

        4. Observer*

          As others noted, it may not be “too stubborn to try” but not seeing the rewards that you are claiming are there.

          I had a tablet that I was bringing to meetings. I stopped, eventually. I LOVED the fact that I could take notes and then have them just show up on my computer. But ultimately, it was waaaay more trouble than it was worth. Even with a good screen and stylus, the thing was finicky when it came to writing. So, I’d have to spend far too much time and mental effort on the note-taking as opposed to the actual content of the meetings, and then I would STILL have to do a ton of editing to get the notes into usable form. So now, I either take paper notes or I make a very, very few notations on my phone.

    7. Maude Lebowski*

      I am not in love with this idea, but is there a way to e.g. put a max on how much people can print in say a week or a month? Then they can self select what they think is important enough to print?

      2. ket*

        Yep, I think this would be most effective. Carrots are great — but sticks work. If you truly want to reduce paper use, make paper use cost something, and let people allocate their resources as they like.

    8. Al who is that Al*

      So instead of carrying a couple of sheets of paper to a meeting, they have to carry an iPad – I can see an issue already.
      For me an iPad is a very limited and restricted user unfriendly item with excellent marketing. It’s not the device I would have chosen to drive a paperless office environment.

      1. Snark*

        It’s neither restricted nor user-unfriendly. You may have a personal beef with Apple, but it’s not reasonable to extend that to work-provided equipment you’ve been instructed to use.

        1. Seriously?*

          It doesn’t sound like they have been instructed to use it. They have been encouraged to use it and are opting out.

          1. Snark*

            It’s one of those situations where being “encouraged” is tantamount to being told. Maybe it needs to be turned into a directive, just to clear up any lingering uncertainty, but.

            2. As Close As Breakfast*

              But it sounds like at this point they are being “encouraged” by a coworker, not their boss. I mean, obviously Susan K was either tasked with this project or given permission to take on this project, so there is management support/authority in there somewhere. But at this point, it may be a matter of her boss (or whoever up the chain) stepping in to turn the “coworker-encouraged” into a “management-directive” situation. For the record, I completely agree that everyone needs to use these iPads (and I’m a by choice non-Apple user in my non-work life.) There’s a chance that some (most?) of the people refusing to use the iPads are clinging to a “well, my boss didn’t actually tell me explicitly that I /had/ to use this, so I’m just not going to!” mentality.

        2. Al who is that Al*

          I did say to Me, it’s restricted and user-unfriendly to develop a paperless environment in an office. It does seem that in the original post, the decision to go paperless has not been studied in depth and a decision to get iPads for everyone was possibly because it’s a “cool new device”. The use of Document capture, interactive whiteboards, interactive TV screens and the various Software already developed would seem to be a better choice rather than just handing everyone an iPad and saying put all your stuff on there, then we’ll try and sync that to a central repository on a server that everyone can access.

          1. Susan K*

            We are not trying to go completely paperless, but to reduce paper consumption, not only due to financial and environmental costs, but for efficiency improvements. I wouldn’t say we have studied it in depth, but our management analyzed the costs and benefits before they spent thousands of dollars on new iPads. My department spends an excessive amount of time printing out forms on which we hand-write information, and then when the forms have been completed, we have to scan them into the computer and send them to be archived. We also take a lot of data in the field, which we hand-write on a piece of paper and then enter the data on a computer when we return to the office. We have a specialized app on the iPads that allows us to enter data directly into the database from the field, as well as to electronically fill in the necessary forms that can be saved directly to the archives rather than printing, manually filling out, and scanning back in. Of course there will be a learning curve for it, but it will ultimately save the department a lot of time and money. Implementation is a many-part process, of which handing out iPads is just one step — one I thought would be easy but has turned out to have some unexpected hurdles.

            1. Jules the Third*

              Ok, that app is the hook you need, not agendas.

              See if you can do a ‘lunch and learn’ where the COMPANY provides the food and everyone who walks in the door has to submit one form during that lunch. Have tech support there to walk people through, from basic set up to form submission.

              Have management announce the timeline for no more manual submissions of the form. Give deadlines. Track who hasn’t submitted a form yet, and have meetings with them where you listen to why they haven’t, and walk them through it again.

              If the app will save them time, most will get moved eventually. But don’t focus on *agendas*, focus on the true value-add app, the forms!

              1. Mbarr*

                THIS! Give them some hand holding on how to accomplish major tasks with the app. Plus the deadline for paper submissions is brilliant.

                I was in a similar situation before – brought on to support software that NO ONE wanted to adopt. You have my sympathies… Management never backed me up and therefore people never adopted the software despite being given quotas. I left after 14 months.

              2. DDJ*

                Yes! And also accept that some people may never adopt the technology. They will always have reasons for you for not being able to complete the forms. “Something was glitchy when I was trying to do it and I didn’t want it to be wrong, so I did it manually. It seems to be working ok now, though.” That’s going to be the #1 excuse from the die-hard resistance (speaking from experience…). If there is ANY way to work around the app, they will find it. It might only be one person, but…be prepared for that person. I do agree though, focus on how great this app is for the forms, how much time it saves, how much easier it is, how much less work it takes…it’s the money beet.

              3. Wakeen Teaptots, LTD*

                I pretty much never print anything, and haven’t in a decade, *except* meeting agendas. I agree with you that meeting agendas should be the last thing tackled, if at all.

              4. Falling Diphthong*

                Fifthing, or whatever number. Focus on the task that will be quicker and easier on the tablet. That’s the hook to get people started.

                Nothing about any “cool new device” is remotely appealing to me unless it is improving my ability to do something I value. If you say “But it’s NEW–and a device!” I will just stare blankly at you. The only time I borrowed my husband’s kindle (which I bought him for reading on all his business travel) was when I was stuck in an airplane seat with no reading light.

            2. pleaset*

              What does any of this have to do with agendas for meetings?

              If there is a business process improvement with the ipads, have at it. Force it.

              But saving paper by not printing agendas or not having people take general notes on paper? Pfffft – what a waste of energy.

              1. JaneB*

                it makes a small amount of sense to me, as long as you don’t have to type on the forms too much and can use dropdowns etc,.because I really struggle to type on my phone for a minute or two – or should people with my kinds of hand problems (I can use an ergonomic keyboard for a full day’s work, but half an hour with a laptop keyboard is my limit. I can use a good quality pen/pencil on paper for a few hours with a decent grip on the pen, but anything involving finger dragging or having to grip tightly/press firmly as tablet users tell me is the norm is really painful after a few minutes) just not be able to work in this setting? I think there are some really cool ways to use tech, but people who come up with them tend to assume everyone is like them and make no allowances for the variety of people and their own little work arounds and ways of doing things, and then come across very poorly to those who aren’t instrantly on board. We aren’t all resistant for the heck of it or in disrespect, sometimes we just can’t handle one more battle, or one more innovation, or just don’t have the bandwidth right now

            4. Observer*

              Has anyone who actually fills in a lot of these forms been involved in the design of this app? If not, that’s a problem right there. A lot of people are going to distrust that some bean counter at headquarters designed an app that is going to work right – even if it’s TECHNICALLY right, it may not work well. And that fear is not generally unfounded.

              I’m going to say, stop being all over the map on this. Instead identify one or two really strong use cases (and agendas are NOT), make sure that they work really, really well, and then get your boss on board with mandating the use in those particular use cases.

              1. Susan K*

                Um, no. Nobody at my company was involved in the design of the app. The app was designed by the company that created the database software we use, and it is being used by several other companies in the industry. App design is outside the scope of this project.

                I have to say, I’m surprised by the number of comments criticizing the use of the iPads for viewing meeting agendas. I’m pretty sure this is the primary use of the iPads for managers (who were the first to be provided with company iPads), and as far as I know, most of them like it. Even if the actual agenda is just a couple of pages, many meetings have large packets of information that are referenced during the meetings — sometimes over 100 pages of documents for each person. Now they don’t have to bring a huge stack of printouts to meetings they’re running, and they don’t have to organize all the papers from the meetings they attend, and they can look up information on the fly. I never would have expected anyone to view this as a negative.

                1. Observer*

                  I never would have expected anyone to view this as a negative.

                  That’s your first problem right there. You haven’t thought about the fact that there could very well be a different perspective.

                  Besides the fact that different people do things differently, there is a MAJOR reason why managers who are running meetings are going to look at this differently than everyone else. The managers have all of this extra paper and materials that they need, so the learning curve is off set by the fact that they no longer have to deal with all of this extra material that they need to make sure is present and they have to carry. If I were a manager and my tablet enabled me to stop bringing in boxes of paper into a meeting, I would be very happy to bring my tablet and a pad of paper to the meeting! I’d also be very happy to project all of the materials being referenced, rather that having to tell people “Now, on page x” and then wait for everyone to find page x (and maybe someone’s handout is missing page c) etc. On the other hand, your managers are probably not the ones taking notes on these things.

                  Your staff, on the other hand, has a VERY different use case here. They don’t need to worry about bringing lots of paper or making sure that everyone is looking at the same page or item during the meeting. They need to think about being able to flip through the document and make notes for themselves before and during the meeting. They also probably don’t need to take the material that’s being referenced in the meetings back to their desks, so the iPad is not helping them with that, either.

                  For me, I would summarize it this way: For running a meeting, especially with a lot of ancillary materials, give me a laptop or tablet any day. As a meeting attendee, give me a paper agenda.

            5. Lara*

              Fantastic! Apart from anything else this sounds like it would save a lot of time. But I think a manager needs to step in to make use of the i-pads mandatory and also implement some training (during work hours).

        3. Luna*

          Different users have different preferences. Obviously some people do find it to be user-unfriendly.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I would be physically uncomfortable trying to type my meeting notes at a meeting table.
        There have been too many times that I try to type something important and I lose the whole thing because of a computer problem or because I cannot figure out how to make the computer do a particular thing that I seldom do.
        If you want me to absolutely get the info, then you have to let me decide how I will record the info- pen and paper or computer. If I have had a long week and I am tired, the last thing I want to do is deal with a computer that is misbehaving.

      3. Britney*

        Oops!

        I seem to have dropped my iPad!

        It doesn’t seem to work any more. Good thing I have a pen and paper!

    9. Lefty*

      I would love to say that incentives would work… but from my (limited, personal) experience with a similar tech initiative, it didn’t work for us! The biggest factors in our eventual success were 1) top level buy-in and promises to support/enforce and 2) tracking and targeting use.

      The most effective tactic was buying printers that produce when we swipe our badges AND that track usage. We weren’t incredibly strict about it, but eventually it was easy to see who were the biggest culprits in usage (some were using 80+ TIMES more paper than average!). We also made this an informal discussion point, never a disciplinary action… there were definitely positions that could justify the paper use, so we wrote that into our procedures as normal, expected cost.

      Another thing that worked, but was generally hated- mandatory training sessions. We required supervisors/managers to attend the training sessions before they were offered to employees so we could potentially spot any expected issues. These tended to work best when we held several of the same session, repeated at various times over a few days so employees could select which session they wanted; there were some employees who would go to an early session to learn, try out, and come back with questions or to make sure they got it. Many folks told us that they liked being able to go with a group they felt comfortable with (usually saying they wanted someone around the same tech level as their buddy). We heard from employees that they were more comfortable knowing their bosses weren’t there to witness their “stupid” questions/lack of tech savvy. Some feedback said that the employees appreciated having third party trainers because they thought some of the internal IT folks had too-high expectations of them or “were good at tech but don’t have patience to teach it to people like me!”.

      We had growing pains, but got through eventually! I hope you can get public buy-in and support from the top on this, it really made the difference for us. Best of luck!

      1. Susan K*

        Thanks for sharing your experience with this! The good news is that we have buy-in and support from our managers. The managers were the first to adopt the iPads because company iPads are normally only issued to managers. My department had to get special budgetary approval to get iPads for non-management employees, so that’s why I kind of thought people would see it as a privilege.

        As for training, everyone has already had one-on-one training on how to use the specialized app that is going to be the main use of the iPads for our department. We haven’t provided general training on how to use an iPad, but our IT department has a walk-in help desk that is the company’s version of an Apple store, where IT professionals will help employees one-on-one to set up their iPads and show them how to use them. Training sessions are tricky here because it is a production environment, and we can’t just stop production for everyone to go to a training session. People also have different schedules, so even if we did training for everyone who’s here today, that would only cover half the department, so often, one-on-one training works out better for things like this.

        The company does have the printers where we have to swipe our badges to get our printouts, but NOT in my department’s main work area, because those printers are also connected to special instrumentation and the badge-readers wouldn’t work for those. I’m not sure if IT can track how much each person prints on those, but I’ll look into it. I know management had some data on how much paper our department uses because they used that for their cost-benefit analysis of this project.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          The scheduling of training is a huge hurdle. Probably what you will have to do is assigned training sessions where a few people would be off the floor at any given time. It’s either that or shut down the line, which is probably a big no-no.

        2. Jules the Third*

          The agendas are a side issue! People will always have preferences there that may not match up with exec’s preferred tech. Focus on getting everyone to submit the forms, which is your value-add app.

          1. Susan K*

            Well, my thinking on this is baby steps — get people used to using the iPads, carrying the iPads, viewing documents on the iPads, and doing simple things (like looking at an agenda on the iPads) to get comfortable with the iPads before completely changing vital work processes.

            Also, we are not ready to move completely to electronic form submission yet. Those electronic forms have to be set up and that is still a work in progress.

            1. Amtelope*

              But what you’re doing is introducing the iPads to people in the most frustrating of contexts, so that what they learn is that the iPad turns simple tasks (print out a document and write on it) into tedious ones (figure out how to open the agenda, figure out how to write on it with the stylus or type on it, figure out how to save the file, figure out how to find the file if you want to look at your notes later.)

              Honestly, I would push to wait until the electronic forms are ready, so that you can then introduce the iPads as a great way to save people from the boring work of scanning or retyping handwritten forms. You are building up resistance to using the iPads by trying to require people to use them to do a task where they make the job harder (for people who prefer paper agendas/taking notes by hand) rather than easier.

              2. Luna*

                I agree, this should wait until the app/forms are ready. Right now the only take away they are getting is that the iPad adds little to no value. By the time the real valuable forms become available it might be too late to reverse their original impression.

              4. Falling Diphthong*

                You’re introducing the iPads to people in the most frustrating of contexts.

                This this this. You want to apply the wedge at the point where the tablet actually makes the task easier. Once people are using it for that task, they may find it useful in other areas. Starting with meeting agendas is backward–the tablet is heavier and harder to interface with compared to the paper solution they already know how to use.

                1. Susan K*

                  The problem is that the tasks for which the iPads will be the most valuable are also the things that have the steepest learning curve. Viewing a meeting agenda just requires them to open an e-mail and view a document, just like they already do on their phones every day. Entering data from the field will require them to learn how to use a whole new app that is completely different from anything else they use and also very different from the desktop version of the database (and, although they have had training on this app, it will take some time using it to get comfortable with it). I’m afraid that if I start with something like that, people will get frustrated and decide that iPads are just too hard to use and not even try to do anything else, even the easier stuff.

                2. Falling Diphthong*

                  From my work: One of the absolutely most frustrating ways to teach people math is to teach them a slow, inefficient way to do something when there are quicker and easier ways to solve a problem. It doesn’t reassure them because it’s easy and it’s baby steps–it annoys them because it wastes their time.

                  If you instead teach them the fast way in a more challenging context, where the existing tools are unhelpful or really slow, they will learn it. It’s more advanced, but it has a point.

                  I can learn any new tech that I am going to need to use regularly. But there needs to be a problem right in front of me that will be solved by my learning to use this tech. I almost never send email on my phone, for example, because the interface isn’t as good. But I got a smart phone in part because there were contexts where I wasn’t at home but wanted to read something stored in email, and a smart phone solved that problem.

                3. Observer*

                  Susan K, actually you are asking people to use an iPad in a way that they don’t use their phones, very often. And you are asking them to do something that is NOT GOING TO BE EASIER FOR THEM. It’s just not. A few pieces of paper are lighter, easier to carry, easier to jot notes on or even just mark and easier to flip through. And you can fold them up and stuff them into their pocket.

                4. Lara*

                  This might sound mean, but actually, things can be mildly irritating and difficult to learn and still be necessary to a company’s business goals. I’m surprised that so many AAM readers are supporting the idea of these employees just noping out of a new device / software.

                  Support, training etc should all be provided – in their working hours – but acting like OP is being unreasonable to expect grown adults to change their methods up is a bit odd to me.

              5. Observer*

                Exactly this. I hope that whoever is setting up the app has a better handle on workflow and usability issues, or you really are going to run into trouble.

            2. Observer*

              You have it backwards. Most people are NOT going to be more effective using an ipad for things like note taking or meeting agendas – especially in the beginning. On the other hand, with the app, even if it’s a wash for people in terms of work, it’s a win for the company. It’s also easier to mandate, and people can more readily understand why it needs to happen.

              The nice side effect is that SOME people will develop the kind of comfort with the technology in use that will enable them to branch into these other areas.

    10. ToodieCat*

      If colleagues need badges to print and you can get some kind of reporting from your printer or whatever, you could incentivize by which team has printed the fewest pages?

    11. foolofgrace*

      IDK if you’re a manager or not, but can you just schedule half-hour meetings with each person for the purposes of getting the iPad out of the box and into use? I think maybe some people are just afraid of looking stupid and are afraid to try. If they have no choice and a meeting is scheduled, they can be reassured during the task.

    12. Akcipitrokulo*

      Switch the printer off?

      Either that, or it needs to be someone with authority to say “these will be used”. Maybe non-optional training sessions where a group at a time will have theirs set up and walked through a few options?

      1. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Switch it off is probably not an option, but what about moving it to an inconvenient spot or — if the boss is really on board with reducing paper — into their office. Just the idea that the boss may be keeping an eye on who is the biggest paper waster may reduce your coworkers’ desire to print.

      2. Susan K*

        Unfortunately, that’s not an option for my department. There are still some things that definitely need to be printed. This project is going to have a multi-step implementation, and handing out iPads is just one of the preliminary steps. We are not ready to switch from paper to electronic documents for certain processes yet.
        Also, this is a production environment and safety and quality come first. My manager would definitely not want me to jeopardize that just to save some paper. It would not go over well if someone were having trouble with their iPad and couldn’t print a document they needed in the field.

    13. Former Retail Manager*

      Paper lover here. I would tell you the same thing…pry the paper from my cold dead hands. Quite frankly, I need paper and I’m sure some other people do too. I am a visual and kinesthetic learner. I visualize the words on the paper as well as my own notes related to those words…yes, I also handwrite notes. I’ve tried doing this electronically and it was a miserable failure. I can honestly say that I gave it a valiant effort, but the information just doesn’t stick in my brain the same way if I’m typing it or even writing with a Stylus. I just don’t know that it will ever change for me personally. So, would donuts motivate me? No. Not even a cash bonus of say $1,000 would motivate me personally. I need paper.

      I bring all this up to convey that while some people are just resistant to change, some people may also have a genuine need for paper because it helps them to recall things better/do their job better.

      Also, as an aside, was this your idea and something that management just let you run with or is there a directive from above regarding an eventual transition to being mostly paperless? If there is a directive from above, I’d find a way to incorporate that into your “requests” that people utilize this technology.

      1. Susan K*

        Well, what motivated you to give electronic note-taking a valiant effort? I actually don’t mind if someone tries out the iPad and says that for certain things, doing it electronically just doesn’t work for them and they’d like to go back to using paper. But I have a feeling that a lot of the resistance is just about learning something new or doing something differently, and once they actually learn it and get used to it, they won’t mind it and might actually prefer it. But first, they have to take the iPad out of the box and actually use it.

        1. Grapey*

          Different commenter here. I like paper because I can jot things quickly. I can photocopy/scan them fairly quickly (sharing and cropping screenshots is a hassle, and I use SnagIt religiously).

          Opposition “just” because someone is learning something new is actually a big deal in the user experience world. They need to see their leaders using it, they need to see their peers doing it, and they also need to see their job being done on it exactly. Hand waving away user problems is a guaranteed way to not get buy-in for your ideas unless there is some organizational muscle behind your changes.

          1. essEss*

            I think in terms of pictures, so my notes are frequently diagrams or abstract shapes that tie ideas together. I can’t type my notes. I need to actually move my hand and draw a picture to retain information. When typing, the info goes from ear to keyboard and doesn’t stick in brain long enough for the long-term memory to kick in.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          I have tried drawing tablets, and it’s just not satisfying in the kinesthetic way that working with a physical pencil or brush is. (This is for art-for-fun.)

          When I take notes in a meeting, my computer is displaying the art layout and any texting back and forth (usually posting of links) and some backup materials I can grab in the background, while I take any notes on a pad of paper. This is partly just physical amount of space, partly tactile mnemonic. But why would I WANT to give electronic note taking a try, just in the “well it’s different, even if more awkward at first” rationale? I use electronic notes in documents wherever I need to do so for work, but that’s because it’s important for interacting with multiple people in an agreed on format.

          Some advice I routinely come back to, that I think applies here–kids don’t want the sample problem to be easy. It’s not helpful to them to see how to solve something when all the awkwardness drops out–they can work that out on their own, given a more advanced example. In math, nothing is more annoying than being taught the slow, inefficient way to do something just so you’ll appreciate the actually quick and effective way–just start with the quick and effective way, in a context where it actually is quicker and more effective than other means of tackling the problem.Hand-holding people through baby steps will just drive them nuts. I strongly agree with the suggestion upthread to not roll this out beyond an “explore for fun if you want to” until you’re ready to use it for the value-added app. Right now you’re just teaching people that the tablets make simple things more complicated.

          1. Mad Baggins*

            Unrelated but +1 to your comment about learning math. I don’t need to know how arduous it was to solve these before Genius McGeniusface came up with the Genius Shortcut, just show me the shortcut!!

        3. Observer*

          What motivates most people to give something a valiant effort is if the see a REASON for it. Meeting agendas and the like simply DO NOT PROVIDE THAT.

          The new app might be harder, but if these people are good at their jobs they can understand WHY they should do it. BTDT.

      2. Susan K*

        Oh, and it is a directive from above, but I am responsible for implementing it. My department’s management analyzed the costs and benefits of this effort before making the decision to move forward with it and assign me to the project. I think my manager is hoping to use our department as a model for similar initiatives in other departments.

    14. Master Bean Counter*

      I’d round up everybody that hasn’t registered their Ipad into a meeting. Explain to them that this is the way the company is going. Not doing this is not an option. But do show empathy. Give them a chance to voice their concerns and ask any questions. Then walk them all through the set-up process.
      If you have no-shows are complete jerks in the room, take names report back to managers. Tell the manager you need help getting them on board.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        But I’d also say pick your battles a little. It sounds like paper agendas is really a red herring here – think of the people who print out a single 1428 page report unnecessarily – you could have given 20 people the warm fuzzies of having their beloved hard copy agendas if you’d reached that guy instead.

    15. Sunshine Brite*

      Admittedly, I hate Apple products… Is this a whole operating systems change for these employees though? That’s usually overly time consuming and annoying to save a little paper. Particularly if it messes with formatting in other applications, etc.

      1. Sunshine Brite*

        Also, my old job had a badge scan to the printer so that you had to confirm you wanted things printed and it cut down on extraneous printing the most out of the efforts to do so outside of moving to electronic record systems.

    16. Grits McGee*

      Have you gotten any feedback on specific objections to the tablets? Sometimes it really does come down to resistance-to-change-itis, but there may be concrete issues you can address to increase use.

      For instance, do people like to mark up or take notes on printed meeting materials? That’s not really intuitive to transfer over to a tablet without investing time to really learn all the options on the tablet. If the technology learning curve is an issue, making it as pain-free to learn as possible could be helpful.

      I have to say though, at my workplace the only really successful approach to getting people to use new technology is cutting off access to the old one.

    17. Anon for now*

      I don’t love the contest idea. It will only incentivize people who care about donuts more than registering iPads, and could set up some tension as people pressure one another over these donuts. The contests also seem patronizing.

      People may be digging in because they’re feeling frustrated by this change and are doubling down. It doesn’t sound like a requirement for their jobs to use the iPads so people who don’t want to just aren’t going to. If you have some iPad enthusiasts who love the change, you could encourage them to informally share how they been able to effectively use the iPad. These are you sort of iPad ambassadors. Personally, I get how people are frustrated by “do new thing you’re not familiar with and will have to spend time learning instead of doing your job, and choose that over what you know and is effective because it saves paper!” It just seems like it is being made into a big deal over something that many people would not view as a big deal. They may be more receptive as they hear others’ positive experiences using the iPads. Not everyone may convert. If it’s not a requirement, let them do what they’re going to do.

    18. The Ginger Ginger*

      I would definitely start by making time with IT to get their iPad set up mandatory. I know you’re trying not to be a jerk about it, but that doesn’t mean (as long as your authorized to do so) you can’t be firm. And at some point, you need to be less apologetic/soft, and these things need to stop being requests.

      I also recommend you read some articles/blogs about change management. There will be some very helpful info on segments in your work population and how you need to work with each to push a change through. Early adopters vs. quiet compliers vs. vocal objectors. You want to push your early adopters to be evangelizers who can work with you to move your objectors into compliers.

      You also want to make sure everyone understands the goal you’re shooting for, and how this request (that’s not really a request) feeds into that. Then you need to enforce it. Incentives like a pizza party after the first 30 days paper free (or something) are nice ways to celebrate, but you need something firmer to push through that initial reluctance.

      At a minimum, I’d make everyone schedule time to get their ipads set up with IT, then schedule a group training on specific tasks on the ipad. Calendar management, accessing email, and a note taking app are probably, at minimum, tasks they’ll need to master to successfully use their ipads, so those should be included. After that, maybe a quick poll on what additional tasks they need to do on the ipad could give you some insight into gaps in their knowledge/comfort levels.

    19. Leave it to Beaver*

      I would not like this. I’m not a paper monster and pretty comfortable with technology (despite being on the wrong side of 40). But, I’m very much a note taker and typically use agendas to both prompt my memory later and take notes on projects or discussions. (Similarly when I’m having difficulty with a writing project, I will print out a draft and go to town or even take out a legal pad and do it the old-fashioned way.) An iPad wouldn’t change this behavior as it’s the physical act of writing that is useful to me, but perhaps (and I say this with some hesitation) if I could use an app that would allow me to write with a stylus or some such, I may… may…. may…. abandon pen and paper. (I say may because I also find that I’m fairly organized with where my papers are, much more so than how my documents are saved, and honestly, it’s sometimes easier to pull out a piece of paper than pull up and open a file.)

      2. mediumofballpoint*

        This. Typing on an iPad is a pain, even with a Bluetooth keyboard. I can take notes faster and better on paper, or type faster on a desktop. iPads are sleek little machines, but a but difficult in an office environment.

      3. Frankie*

        Yeah, mostly I like to note-take on my computer because it’s fast, but particularly if I’m in a planning or creative mode, I find that working with pen & paper where I can move around the page helps me strategize a bit better than if I’m just typing stuff in lines down a page.

    20. Susan Sto Helit*

      Try having one paper-free day in the office a week? By which I mean, one day a week in the office in which the printers are switched off and unplugged (or, if easier, the printer paper has been removed and locked away). Pick a day where it’s not going to be hugely disruptive if people can’t print things, and make sure everyone knows about it in advance. It might help everyone adapt.

      You can also try sneaky things, like not sending around meeting agendas in advance – wait until everyone is physically in the meeting, then send it to their iPads. “Jane, did you forget your iPad? Don’t worry, I’m happy to pause for a moment while you grab it.”

      Also make sure you’re still providing recycled notepads so people can take notes by hand. People can adapt to viewing things on a screen but making notes on one is going to take a lot longer to learn. Pick your battles.

      1. Observer*

        Basically, you are suggesting that they sabotage their work to force people to use their iPads. That just doesn’t make sense.

    21. Q*

      At OldJob when they couldn’t manage to reduce paper consumption, they “accidentally” forgot to do the paper order one month and we ran out. It got really annoying to have to scramble to print things you did need on backs of old paper but it did cut down on people printing things they didn’t actually need. It wasn’t worth the extra effort required to find a blank sheet, load it in the printer, and then hope no one else printed on it before you get back to your desk and print. When they did resume ordering paper, it was at half of what they used to get and we had to manage.

      Maybe rather than go this drastic you could straight up tell them that next months order will be 3/4 or normal and the month after that will be 1/2 and that will be the new normal.

    22. BadWolf*

      I would concentrate on the “reduction” as some people probably just jump to “we’re eliminating all paper” and are fighting against it.

      I might turn it around and say that for minor things, you can certainly still use paper. Printing out 1 agenda sheet is totally cool. But for that thing that you have to print 50 pages out — maybe try using it on the iPad and print out the 10 most important pages.

      1. Susan Sto Helit*

        I had a meeting last week at which we were all provided with a paper agenda, but all other materials for the meeting were shown on-screen. In the end I only wrote about two things on my agenda so could have gone without that as well. I’m so glad I didn’t have to shuffle around dozens of pages in a printout all day.

        1. Observer*

          This makes a lot of sense. Let people have their paper agendas, and display everything else. It’s a win all around – reduces paper, doesn’t make life difficult for people who take notes, and it actually makes the meeting more smooth to run because you know what people are looking at. And it reduces some prep time and effort, because you don’t need the packets.

    23. Lindsay J*

      I would go about making sure that the processes they want you to do on the iPad are actually easier on the iPad than with paper.

      They got our maintenance techs here iPads to use to look up information in the manuals, rather than having to look at it on a computer (when we don’t have computers up in the plane where they’d need to look up the info) or in big binders. Theoretically, having everything in a searchable pdf would be much easier.

      However, the way the pdfs are rendered on the iPad make it impossible to search through it – each chapter and subchapter is sectioned off into it’s own document, so you can’t search the whole thing in one go. You would have to open each chapter and subchapter and search seperately. So that eliminates what would be the biggest advantage the iPad would have over the binders. The files are also so big that they take a long time to open on the iPad – longer than fishing the binder out of it’s assigned spot and flipping open to the chapter.

      Plus, it’s more of a problem if the iPad gets greasy than if some paper does – you can always just reprint the paper. The binder isn’t going to crack if it accidentally slips out of your hands like the iPad does, etc. People might steal the iPads out of their bags or toolboxes while nobody is going to steal the binder. If the iPad gets taken home and stolen or lost then there’s confidential information on them that would present a threat to security.

      So adoption of the iPads has been low. Most people did at least try them, but most people don’t carry them regularly.

      Tech docs called MX to find out why people weren’t using them, and this information was reported to them.

      On the other hand, the pilots have used iPads to mostly replace all the maps and such that they used to use, and adoption there is much higher. The programs used to render the maps are much nicer. They don’t have to dig out a specific map, just load up the app and pull up the one they need. There’s not the same issues with grease and other contaminants. So they actually want to use them, and do.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Make sure that the processes are actually easier on the iPad than with paper.

        This. If you want people to adapt it, it can’t be slower and more awkward than what they’re doing now.

    24. IL JimP*

      Remove the printers, that’s what my office did or severely limit how many you have so it’s inconvenient to print everything

    25. Grapey*

      Other org changes could be made, like requiring a meeting agenda ahead of time. This would double as a time saver (people can see the agenda ahead of time and decide if they want to go to the meeting, or add things to it) as well as reduce paper if nobody wants to print it out. Or have it as the first slide in a powerpoint if it really has to be sprung on meeting attendees at the last minute.

      95% of people probably won’t print it out. Occasionally I like to print an agenda ahead of time and I mark it up with relevant questions/decisions that I have. I don’t know how I would easily do that if I had to depend on an iPad.

    26. Guacamole Bob*

      Can you tell us a bit more about the ways the employees are expected to use the iPads? The conversation has focused on meeting agendas, but I’m guessing that’s not the point. I see two possibilities here:

      – The iPad initiative is focused on general paper use and is general purpose, and employees are being encouraged to change their (possibly long-established) work patterns to save a few sheets of paper. In most offices this will face massive resistance, because people have figured out what works well for them in terms of reviewing documents, taking notes, etc., and demanding that they upend their existing patterns to record and process information in a different way is a Big Deal. There may well be opportunities to improve workflow with technology, but it takes time and in the meantime it actually slows things down for a lot of people who Ain’t Got Time for That.

      – There’s a specific process that can be majorly streamlined or that produces tons of paper. Employees are filling out manual inspection reports or call logs or service reports that have to be hand-entered into a database and now there’s an app for that. Daily work assignments are handed out in paper to thousands of employees (my organization!). You’ve got a team of lawyers that’s printing thousands of pages of documents when a tablet could do instead. In this type of situation, it really needs to come down as an edict about a change in policy and process, with training and deadlines for making the switch.

      1. Jules the Third*

        From a comment above, the value proposition for the iPads is based on forms that the team must submit. Pre-ipad, people printed the forms, filled them in manually, scanned, and sent for processing. The iPad has an app to fill / send the forms without printing / scanning, and the time / cost savings on that is why they got the iPads.

        Having seen that comment, I do not understand why Susan is looking at people’s printed agendas at all. If everyone uses the iPads for the forms, she’ll have captured most of the value proposition; let the remaining bits go in the name of morale.

        1. Guacamole Bob*

          After I posted my comment I saw the other new ones, and I totally agree with you. The meeting agendas aren’t the point here and focusing on the seemingly trivial paper use in that context will just annoy people and turn them off on the whole project. But if it’s really going to save that much time and money, management needs to treat this as a change to their process, just like when you introduce new software and phase out support for the old. Announce that by X date all Teapot forms will be available to enter by app only, here are the training opportunities, etc.

    27. Margo the Destroyer*

      Can you create some sort of phase out plan for the department? Determine the order of importance of docs and set hard deadlines to when they can be printed out? And with each set phase decrease the amount of paper thats ordered, so they know start to realize paper will be very limited shortly?

      We had to go paperless at work mostly as well because they started offering work at home, but you have to be paperless to do that.

    28. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      People are funny this way. My office has the reverse problem. A bunch of us want tablets so we can take notes, not waste so much paper, etc. The head of our administrative division allows tablets, and all of their managers who wanted one, got one. The head of the legal division I’m in is a luddite and believes it’s a waste of resources, so I’m not allowed one.

      There are two good ways to change behaviors. The first is to give someone an incentive and the second is to make it more difficult to keep doing the status quo.

    29. Eye of Sauron*

      A couple of things…

      Carrot and stick – yes, bribe people with goodies and incentives. But on the same token, work with the managers and leadership to push compliance.

      Next, make sure you have given them the tools such as compatible apps and options of apps to help them get used to the new tools. I use several different ones and it’s been a lot of trial and error to find what works best. Offer training for how to use the apps and to integrate with their current tools. For instance if they already use MS Office, teach them OneNote and how to integrate with Outlook and the like, then show them how to interact with OneNote on their iPad.

    30. Evil HR Person*

      You are in sore need of a mini game: “How much money could we save on paper if we all looked at our iPads instead of printing things out?” Then, with the money saved per month/quarter/half-year, you give them something they like, such as a pizza lunch, or whatever flies at your work. We’ve had them at my office. The most popular one was to have our crews use the ice machine at the warehouse instead of buying ice at the store. They saved a ton of money, which was easy enough to figure out. Then, with the savings, they did something fun for all. It’s pretty simple to look at your usual paper purchase and see if there’s a difference from one purchase to the next.

      Here are the (loose) rules of a mini game: (1) it can’t last more than 12 weeks because people get bored; (2) you have to keep track of it somewhere where everybody can see how they’re doing – like a big scoreboard; (3) every time you hit a milestone (say, every month if it’s a 3-month game), everyone gets a little something. The milestone prizes should be small – people are competitive, for the most part, so they want whatever it is they can win, even if it’s a pencil. Then the grand prize should be large, and everyone should win it – that’s why I’m thinking like a lunch, maybe a catered lunch from a nice restaurant, or whatever makes your people happy.

      1. pleaset*

        Speaking from a fairly high-paid perspective, I don’t agree: I want to get my work done more easily/faster, not get pizza. If the technology makes the work easier/faster – then I’m in. If not, I’m out. It’s simple.

    31. Not So NewReader*

      Your goal got lost here.

      Somehow reducing paper usage morphed into “Use this iPad!”
      No, the goal is to reduce paper usage.

      Let’s go back to that. So the naysayers can be told, “Okay, not happy with the iPad. We still need to reduce paper usage, so what do you think you personally can do to contribute to that effort?”

      My boss NEVER buys me writing tablets. I have a slot in the paper/file holder on my desk just for paper that I have printed out on but the back can be reused as scrap paper. I have worked for her for 6 years and not used a single pad of new writing paper.
      At home I take the paper I can reuse and cut it into quarters. It’s the perfect size for little reminder notes or short shopping lists. I started doing this when I was cleaning up my father’s estate. Man, he had a lot of paper. I had 17 cases in one room and the other rooms did not look much better. That was when I decided to start using the backs of paper. My father has been gone 24 years and I have not run out of paper yet. sigh. So I don’t buy writing paper for home use either.

      The other issue I see and so many times this part is lost, there is NO time to learn the new technology. And telling me to get it up and running myself is a burden beyond belief. Sample story. I had a computer. TPTB decided it was not good enough and I had to have another. I installed it. It took hours because I am not a techie. I had to connect my boss’ computer to mine, remove 2 CPUs that I had and so on. Nine months later, I have another computer. “This one is better.” Alrighty then. I get that new CPU in place and running. It was hours because of unforeseen problems. Meanwhile I am not doing any of my work. Just to be clear, if I work steadily at my normal work, I am still way behind. Not working on my own work puts me unbelievably behind.
      Then I get a call. I am getting a third computer. I pushed back. I got yelled at. I pushed harder.
      The new CPU they wanted to give me was the same thing I had. They insisted that I did not have one. So while I got out of installing another CPU, I did spend a bunch of time explaining to the non-believer that I already had the same CPU.

      This is the computer story. I have phone stories, fax stories, credit machine stories, computer program stories. I lose HUGE amounts of time just dealing with technology and my voice does not get heard on this point. If I say anything I get laughter. (Not from my wonderful boss, though. She sees the insanity.) There is no ONE person who realizes how many technology problems any given employee is facing. It would be interesting to survey the people and find out how much of their time is dealing with tangent technology and how much of their time is dealing with the REAL work.

      In your setting you have conflicting goals going on. Production has to meet goals or the bills don’t get paid because there is not enough product to sell. Managers are telling you they buy in because what else is there, they have to buy in. But no one is figuring out where the time will come from for people to set up and acquaint themselves with the new tech. I worked production supervision for a lot of years, I know first hand, if people are not given the time to learn the change the response will be “Management, you want ONE more thing out of us? Then you can just go whistle up a drain pipe, I am not doing it!” I have seen the same reaction in retail. (And this is how employees can sink a company.)

      My suggestion here is to go to the production managers and ask them what they need to make training times happen. Probably your solution is to put everyone on overtime to get their training done. Make the training mandatory and make computer usage part of the job requirements.

      A board I am on, needed people trained to do X. In order to get them the training we had to set up for coverage while they were learning X. They MUST learn X, so we had to figure out how to make that happen. They were told it’s now a job requirement. (It should have been a requirement ten years ago but somehow that did not happen.) Time was set aside where they were relieved of their regular duties, they were provide materials to use for learning and they were quizzed/checked afterwards. It had to go that way, we had no choice.

      1. Susan K*

        I don’t think I have lost the goal — I am just realizing that I underestimated the complexity of a step I thought would be simple, namely, “Give everyone an iPad to use.” Clearly, it was foolish of me to think it would be that simple, but I thought most people know and love mobile devices (I mean, lunchtime here is silent because everyone — including the people who refuse to take their iPads out of the box — is sitting in the breakroom staring at their smartphones while they eat) and would be happy to have one to use on the job. I was pretty surprised when I was handing out free iPads and multiple people told me, “I don’t want this and you can’t make me use it,” and it made me realize I am going to have to put more work into this part of the project than I expected.

        There are many things we are doing in the effort to reduce paper usage, and the iPads are necessary for most of them. Not all of them are ready to implement right now, but I don’t see why we shouldn’t implement changes one at a time, phasing out paper usage gradually, rather than change everything at once. Electronic meeting agendas are the absolute simplest part of this project (and I know it might seem negligible, but we have meetings every day, and some of them have 30+-page packets of documents in addition to the agendas). We also have an app to enter data directly into the database from the field instead of writing it on a piece of paper and transferring it to the computer. We are also working on a way to make SOPs available on the iPads for use in the field so people aren’t printing out 200 pages of SOPs every day. We are also creating electronic forms that can be filled out on the iPads and sent directly to archives instead of printing, filling manually, and scanning. People are going to need to be able to use their iPads, which is something I took for granted, and I want to make sure we don’t get to the day when we eliminate manual forms and have people say, “But I don’t know how to use this iPad that you gave me 6 months ago.”

        I know change is painful, but sometimes it is necessary to learn new technology to keep up with what you’re expected to do. When I was in high school, I interned for a lady who didn’t do e-mail. She made me print out her e-mails, and she would write out her replies by hand and then have me type and send them for her. Can you imagine someone doing that in this day and age? Pretty soon, in my department, that will be the equivalent to printing out a form, filling it out by hand, and then scanning it back into the computer. If people haven’t learned how to use their iPads by then, they will be in trouble. Management has made it clear that we will be making these changes, and I just want to make it as painless as possible.

        I do think it is a great idea to get management to make training happen. They can make it a work assignment for Fergus to go to IT and get his iPad set up today. Putting everyone on overtime for this is not going to happen, though. I don’t have the authority to authorize overtime, and management would laugh in my face if I asked, and frankly, rightfully so, because they get a report every month on internet usage. If Fergus complains that he doesn’t have an hour to go to the IT help desk and have them set up and show him how to use his iPad, they can look at their report and say, “Last month, you spent an average of 10 hours per week on Facebook while you were on the clock, so use some of that time to learn to use your iPad.”

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          You wrote “And I want to make sure we don’t get to the day when we eliminate manual forms and have people say, ‘But I don’t know how to use this iPad that you gave me 6 months ago.'”

          I think you are probably going to get to this day whether you like it or not. Using an iPad for meeting agendas, as practically countless commenters have mentioned, is not a compelling reason to use an iPad. Using an iPad because you have eliminated manual forms and the iPad is the ONLY MEANS to accomplish the data entry you need to accomplish IS a compelling reason. Most people are basically rational.

        2. AcademiaNut*

          I think the fundamental problem is that you’re asking people to do stuff based on principles, not on practicalities. Basically – do this thing on your iPad that’s annoying and impractical and makes your job less efficient, because it will make it easier in the future when we start using the iPad for something actually useful. By the time you get to that stage, though, people will associate the iPad with frustration, and be even more resistant. This is the exact opposite of the painless method you want.

          My advice – for now, start putting stuff in iPad practical formats (ie, *not* letter sized PDFs!) that’s easy and efficient for access, but don’t force it. Create a step-by-step tutorial for people to set up their iPads and ensure that they don’t need to use personal resources (ie, you should provide company iCloud storage, not require them to use a personal one). Also, buy them all keyboards to go with the iPad, not just pens.

          When you’ve actually got a working system for entering data on the iPad, get a few of the more eager people to beta test it in the field. Listen to feedback about what works and what doesn’t, and what’s a serious pain in the neck (for example – they need to enter numbers with a stylus, but the handwriting recognition doesn’t work well, and you get errors. Or they need a table and a stand for the iPad rather than holding it). Fix the problems and test again.

          Then, and only then, hold a department wide training seminar. I’m talking everyone in a room with iPads, going through the new software step by step, then a day or two of using the software on test cases and checking the results. Use your beta testers as additional trainers. Provide lunch and snacks.

          After this productivity will absolutely go down as people adapt to the new system, and then gradually go back up.

          In general, most people are only going to switch from a system they know well and can use efficiently to a different one when they have to. Some people will never be happy, but most people will adapt, *providing that the change you are asking has a logical reason and is mostly bug free*. If you force a change without a good reason (like the agendas), or the change is bug riddled and frustrating (ie, you don’t use the beta testers), they’ll all hate it and resent you for it.

        3. Observer*

          Except that you have it backwards. As simple as it seems to you, you are asking people to do something that is more complicated that you are willing to admit for relatively small gains. You can get rid of most of the paper in those meeting without making everyone use ipads, because all that STAFF need are the agendas. All of the other stuff goes on the manager’s ipad and gets projected.

          Meeting agendas on the ipad are the LAST thing you should be implementing. The database stuff and SOPs should be first. Yes, the database stuff may be technically harder, but not as much as you think. And it doesn’t really matter because most people WILL see the benefit to them and even if they don’t they will understand why it needs to be done, assuming that the training is done reasonably well. And it is MUCH easier to mandate something like that because the benefits are much clearer and tied to core functionality.

      2. Leave it to Beaver*

        I’m also a paper re-user. For my to-do lists, I keep print-outs I’m no longer using, clip them together and use the clean side to keep track of my projects. (And this is not possible to do digitally as sticky notes would get lost behind the dozens of windows I have open)

    32. Nesprin*

      Ugh. Your coworkers saying “You can have my paper agendas when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.” are making a statment that this solution does not solve their problems. I am tech savvy, (own 4 computers, 2 tablets and a phone) and I would absolutely revolt against using an ipad for notes/agendas in lieu of paper. I cannot possibly imagine that ipads are cheaper than paper usage, and the cost of having to charge and carry an expensive fragile device would put me around the bend.

    33. Little Bean*

      Whose support do you have for this? Because honestly, the only way I see this working is if bosses start enforcing it. Many years ago, my office switched from a paper calendar (like one large shared office calendar and you had to walk to the front desk every morning to copy down your schedule) to Outlook calendars. One woman threatened to just stop attending any meetings or doing any work if it wasn’t given to her on paper. My boss was very patient, made it clear that this wasn’t optional and scheduled a 1:1 time to sit down with her and go over how the calendar worked. It took her a couple of weeks to stop grumbling but she got over it.
      If your mandate is just “encourage people to cut down on paper use where it won’t ruffle feathers”, then I would do something like an incentive for people who participate, like, have free food at the ipad registration meetings. But I wouldn’t make it contingent on everyone having to do it, because they won’t. If your mandate is that everyone must use ipads, then you need stronger muscle than donuts.

      1. Susan K*

        Management supports this, and in fact came up with the project before assigning me to it. My grandboss is the one who is really pushing for it. I think it’s because he wants to make a name for himself by being the first department to go mostly paperless, and he has indicated that he sees this as an opportunity for me to have a big accomplishment. I am not a manager and I have no authority over my coworkers, but my coworkers know that this whole thing is mandated by management.

        I feel like it would reflect poorly on me if I repeatedly went running to management to have them force people to comply with this initiative. I also don’t think it goes over well for management to make people do things “because I said so.” I’m afraid that if the only way I can get people to learn to use their iPads is with threats from management, they will be even more resistant to the next change. Maybe there will be a couple of super-stubborn holdouts who will have to be threatened into compliance, but I’m not ready to give up yet, and I don’t want to turn to that at the first sign of resistance.

        Management has acknowledged that we are not aiming to eliminate paper completely, but reduce as much as possible within reason. It’s not about not ruffling feathers, but about not compromising safety and quality. Some comments have suggested taking away the printers or putting a limit on how many pages people can print, but we can’t risk having people unable to get the documents they need when and where they need them, whether it’s because they don’t like the iPads or their iPads are broken. At the end of the day, it’s more important to get the work done safely and correctly than to save paper, but ideally, we want to do both.

        1. Amtelope*

          If management is determined that people need to use their iPads for meeting agendas, then you may have to level with the resistant people in your department about that. “I know you prefer paper, but grandboss really wants us to make this switch. It will negatively reflect on our department if we don’t do this. I would hate to see this made mandatory because I know people would like the option of occasionally using paper, but we need to come up with a plan for making sure that grandboss sees us using the iPads for meeting agendas 90% of the time.” Which, yes, carries the implication that grandboss may step in to insist if they don’t make the change. But that’s the situation, right? This isn’t really optional, they have to do it, and you can only sugarcoat that so far.

          If using them for meeting agendas isn’t really mandatory and management isn’t insisting you die on that hill, then pick another hill to die on. Wait until there’s a process that’s genuinely faster for everyone on the iPad, and insist that they be used for that process. Give people plenty of warning — “In two weeks we will switch to doing X electronically only. Paper forms won’t be accepted after that date. If you need training on the iPad or X software, please sign up for one of the following dates: (some time slots you have scheduled for the people who still haven’t taken their iPads out of the box.)

          And know that whichever approach you take, there will STILL be people the day you finally switch over saying “I don’t know how to use the iPad, here’s my paper form.” Make sure everyone involved is empowered to say “no, we only take forms submitted through X software.” Figure there will be some lost productivity the day(/week) you make the switch. That’s inevitable when you’re asking people to adopt new technology.

    34. Badmin*

      I totally understand both sides here. I think you need to ask why they aren’t using or even opening the iPads. I can imagine the why is information processing, habit, and preference but you may get some valuable information by setting up a survey for feedback and allow them to give thoughtful responses. You could also ask why/what people
      are most likely to print. And little by little replace something they only print once in a while with the iPad.

    35. Student*

      It’s time to accept that your company’s approach to this, buying everyone iPads, has failed to achieve the desired objective.

      Trying to cajole your team like this won’t make it better.

      Try this instead:
      -Telling your team you need them to reduce paper consumption so that there’s more budget for other things; give them examples of what your current printing budget is, and what you’d use the extra money for. Get buy-in.
      -Next time you have a huge IT budget to do something like this, try this instead: buy a department printer that requires the user to affirmatively click a button on the physical printer to get their document printed. These are commonly available in commercial printers now. They can be configured so that, if you have a bunch of them, the document gets printed to whatever printer the person goes and clicks on. It cuts down on documents that people print and never pick up, and/or documents printed to the wrong spot, and people walking off with each other’s documents. It works because it’s specifically targeted at print waste instead of at changing the way people do their job substantially.
      -If you want to get tough about paper waste, go have a talk with IT. Get the stats on who prints the most pages and try to intervene with those people specifically. Maybe there’s a job-based reason they need to print so much; or maybe they are printing out text books for their kids. It’s usually not a department-wide thing; it’s a couple of specific people – so it’s better fixed by intervening with the key employees directly than trying to get the whole department to change.
      -If you’re determined to do department-wide things like this, get some buy-in FIRST, before the iPads show up. If you want to solve real problems, you need to actively engage with people, not give them imperatives from on-high that seemingly have no relation to their jobs. Talk to people first, figure out if the iPads are actually likely to achieve your objective, and get the team’s feedback on the idea. Nix or modify the idea if the first round of feedback is very bad. Give people warning of what’s coming and a chance to grouse in advance so they get it out of their systems. Maybe some of your folks would’ve been happier to go paperless if they had a similarly-priced non-Mac device. Maybe they don’t view this as a problem the way you do. Maybe the iPads actually make their work-flow harder because they can’t access certain job-specific things. Maybe the support offered is bad or not in a format people understand and can use well.

      1. Susan K*

        You have some good points, but, you know, hindsight is 20/20. Most of these decisions were made before I was involved in the project. I actually would have recommended a different brand of tablet that has some specific capabilities that would have been useful, but the manager likes iPads and already purchased them.

        The company does have those printers (although not in my department’s main work area, because our printers are connected to equipment that wouldn’t work with those printers), and management got all the data available on our department’s paper usage before proceeding with this project. There are some pretty obvious sources of paper usage, though, like SOPs that are required to be taken into the field and have each step signed off, and doing this electronically would save hundreds of pages per day.

        1. Student*

          Then YOUR real problem is taking on a poorly-thought-out and poorly-implemented project, through no fault of your own. You’re being asked to salvage something that can’t really be salvaged at this point. You lack the actual authority to change your co-worker’s behavior.

          Try to pass it back to management, pass it off to somebody else, or figure out a way to manage the fissile-out.

          I’d probably start that off by telling management that I’m running into a lot of resistance on iPad adoption that’s too deep to overcome on the co-worker level. Maybe they take the task back from you, or maybe you end up ratting out one of the biggest resistors and management makes an example of them.

          1. Susan K*

            Wow, I think it’s a little extreme to say I should give up on the whole project just because it’s not going perfectly. This is not an optional assignment for me, so I have to do the best I can with what I’ve got. And, while I personally lack the actual authority to make my coworkers change their behavior, the changes are not optional for them, either. That doesn’t mean that I’m not going to try to get people to do what they need to do by asking nicely before I resort to asking management to order them to do it.

    36. Benray*

      Have meeting leaders send out agendas in printing restricted PDFs. Create a performance measure to track printing/non-printing of certain common, high-volume documents. Target would be 100% use of iPads for certain documents, with folks who have vision issues not included in this measure. Post this performance measure so all can see it.

    37. Xarcady*

      My retail job recently gave everyone in my department a tablet and pencil.

      1. There were two required training sessions. So no one could claim they did not know how to use the tablets.
      2. They took the on-floor computer away after a month of letting us practice on the tablets. Thus forcing everyone to use them. Those who had refused to practice had a steep learning curve.

      So in the OP’s shoes, I’d hold mandatory training sessions. That at least would get the iPads out of the boxes.

      And then I’d try to figure out some way to require people to use the tablets. Or make it more difficult to use paper than to use the tablet. And rewards for using the tablets might also work.

      Our tablets have a setting that allows the user to write notes on documents/images with the pencil. I’m sure the iPad must have something similar.

      That said, my other job has really gone paperless over the last few years. Without iPads. Everyone has a company-issued laptop and we all bring the laptops to all meetings. People take notes on their laptops. Every meeting room has a HD projector and the agenda can be projected on the wall. Or people can look at the agenda/related docs on their laptops. We did all have to learn new tricks in Adobe Acrobat for marking up documents, but we managed to deal with that–there was some resistance there.

      So I’m wondering if there are paperless methods that do not include the iPad that might work for some of the more stubborn employees? While I’d jump at the chance to use an iPad, maybe someone else would prefer a different method.

    38. Nina the Ballarina*

      If your company can afford to buy an iPad and Apple Pencil for every employee, it can afford modest incentives such as donuts or better! Do not use your personal money to finance this. Survey the group for what incentives will motivate them (including past successful efforts). half day off, gift cards, lunch or breakfast if you hit a target, etc. You might also consider a day with no printer/copier access (or some part of a day).

    39. Observer*

      Step One:

      What is the benefit to staff of using these new iPads? What are the actual pain points? No, it’s not JUST that they don’t like change – not when it’s this many people. You need to find out what is really holding people back.

      Then you need to reduce the pain points, and find SOMETHING that significantly helps the people who actually have to use these things.

      Part of this is making sure that those cool new iPads are actually the best tool for what they need to do and that they integrate well into whatever workflow they need to engage in.

      Obviously I don’t know what’s bugging your staff, just from the little you have said, I could think of some possibilities.
      * People don’t want to go to the walk-in IT because it’s a madhouse, the wait time is forever, or techs are rude or make them feel stupid.

      * It’s actually a lot easier to write the inventory info on a regular paper with a pen and enter it into the computer on a proper computer with a decent keyboard and the whole screen visible.

      * They don’t find the iPad screen as readable as paper.

      * They are worried about having to handle this expensive and fragile piece of equipment, and concerned that they are going to have to pay when it breaks.

      * They want to be able to flip quickly through a document and look at multiple pieces at the same time / side by side.

      I spend a huge amount of my time deploying technology, so I’m on your side here. But if I, in literally seconds, can come up with a bunch of potential problems with the scenario you mention, it’s a good bet that there there are some real issues that are playing into the resistance you are getting.

    40. Undine*

      If I were in your department, I would be having some trouble with the overall equation. How many pieces of paper do I have to refrain from printing out in order to add up to the environmental impact of an iPad? A lot, surely. Like, reams and reams.

      I found this for printed books (although it doesn’t address e-waste, or conflict generated by tantalum, for example):

      “A single e-reader’s total carbon footprint is approximately 168kg, and for a book, this figure is somewhere in the range of 7.5kg; the book’s length and type can lead this figure to vary. Using an average of 7.5kg, we can conclude it would take reading about 22-23 books on an e-reader to reach a level in which the environmental impact is the same as if those books had been read in print.”

      So that’s a *lot* of printed agendas in the lifetime of a device. Given that paper works well for me, that I don’t print out the agenda every time, and that I will use paper sometimes no matter what, you need to convince me that this is valuable on a meta level. Otherwise, you’re chasing a paper tiger, so to speak, and not doing any real good.

    41. LilySparrow*

      Yes, I would find it silly and patronizing, and I probably would ignore it.

      If you want people to take your project seriously, treating them like third-graders probably isn’t the best way to go about it.

      I don’t take notes on a tablet or laptop, I take notes by hand, and I don’t like writing on screens. It’s never, ever, easier than a pad of paper. Never.

      My pad of paper never runs out of charge. It never freezes. It never interrupts me with a software update or push notifications. It never requires a password or goes to sleep when I pause to listen. It never complains that its lost the wifi. And even if I forget *my* pad of paper at home, I can use *any* piece of paper equally well.

      If I did use the iPad to view the agenda, I’m still going to take notes on paper. Which would save printing, I suppose, but will probably use the same number of sheets.

    42. Mona25*

      Late to the party but, my two cents, maybe they dislike Apple products, that may also be a factor. My work phone is an Apple and I am not crazy about it, even though everyone says it’s the latest model, I do the bare minimum on it, I just figured how to set up my voicemail, and I have had the thing for a few months! Thankfully, I only have to use it for work. All my personal devices are Samsung.

    43. ShiverPug*

      I bought my own iPad Pro and Apple Pencil so I could take notes on it! Lol. I’m sorry I don’t have any advice.

  8. Snark*

    So I got a call from my future boss on Tuesday reassuring me that they were working the process of getting me hired and told me my start date and so on, so YAAAY I stuck the landing on this layoff. Huge relief. I feel like my shoulders are hanging an inch lower lately.

    5. Snark*

      I will say there’s no official offer yet, but this is the federal government, and they have to do things a particular way based on a stack of regulations about as thick as an average dictionary, so.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Hang tough. I am sure you interviewed very well and they want you on their team SO MUCH. They will jump the hoops to make it happen. I am sure of it.

    13. Basia, also a Fed*

      Hey Snark, I’ve been following your journey through lurking. I have also held an Environmental Protection Specialist position at a federal agency (not EPA and I’ve since transitioned into a different position). Are you going to a different agency? Are you able to stay in your current area? I’m so glad everything is working out for you!

      1. Snark*

        It’ll actually be the same agency for which I’ve been a contractor for the past six years, but a different location – but it’s still right in the area, even if my commute will be 10-15 minutes longer. It’s a massive, massive relief.

        And heyo, EPS fistbump! Though I’ll actually be taken on as a biologist, it sounds like.

  9. Llama Wrangler*

    Oh, I had two more questions, in addition to the two above, those these are maybe more vents/requests for commiseration! (Again short versions at the top, explanations below). (3) What’s with jobs asking to speak with your current supervisor for a reference? (4) Why are jobs asking me to give a numerical rating of how my last boss would rate me?

    (3) *What’s with jobs asking to speak with your current supervisor for a reference?* I’ve had two jobs recently ask to speak with my current supervisor as a reference. In my case it’s fine because my supervisor knows I’m looking, but why are jobs insisting on this? Has anyone here ever successfully pushed back on that because your supervisor didn’t know you’re looking?

    (4) *Why are jobs asking me to give a numerical rating of how my last boss would rate me?* I had two jobs ask me the same interview question this week, which I hadn’t encountered before: “Who were your last two bosses? And how will they each rate your performance on a 1-10 scale when we talk to them?” (The two jobs asked a 75% of screen questions that were word for word identical, so I’m wondering if there’s some standard “phone screen” list they were pulling from. And I know they were identical because the first one sent them to me to reply to in email, and the second one was a phone screen and I pulled up the first one’s questions while I was on the call so I could reference my previously thought out answers.) Anyway, this rating question seems weird to me. First, it doesn’t even ask for an explanation (though I gave specific examples), and also why do they need a numeric rating? I tried to say “high” to the phone screen and the interviewer pressed me for an exact number. Not to mention neither of my last two supervisors gave me performance reviews, so I didn’t actually know what they would say, other than that they’ve both promised to be strong references for me. Maybe this is more of a vent than a question, but I’m curious if other people have encountered this.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      WRT #3, I’ve seen this happen with a coworker of mine who was job searching. In her case, she received a verbal offer first, and the written was contingent upon the reference of the current supervisor. She was told this at the outset of the interview process, presumably so she could opt out of the process if she knew her current boss would not say glowing things.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Yeah, that seems much more reasonable to me, both because it’s transparent early on, and because it comes after a verbal offer.

      3. JHunz*

        Ugh. Why not just provide a formal written offer with acceptance into the position contingent on a decent reference from the current supervisor? If you’re serious enough to want to talk to my current employer, put something on paper to prove it.

    2. Samata*

      I applied for a job last summer that contacted my current supervisor for a reference before they even called to tell me that I was being considered for an interview. Talk about going over like a lead balloon. They did NOT know I was looking, but luckily I was able to smooth things over and still use it as a negotiation tactic. I don’t understand why companies do that.

      So, really no advice, just saying I agree it sucks!

      As for the numerical rating, I have never ever had that before. And I don’t know it something valuable – I mean, I am sure there are people out there who would say 9/10 when it’s more like 2/10.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Yeah, the only thing I could think of it is if they are actually comparing your rating to what your supervisor says to see if you have accurate self perception. But if they’re asking this question in the initial screen and not speaking with references until 2-3 interviews later, they’ve already gotten a lot more information about you before.
        I guess I should write this off as “bad interview question” but it caught my interest because two people used it in one week and so it seems like someone said it was good for something.

    3. Book FTW*

      I can highly recommend the book “How to Answer Interview Questions: 101 Tough Interview Questions” which covers this exact issue about rating yourself 1-10. The book is written in a way that you can skip questions that don’t apply and really helped me prep for these “Tell me about a situation where…” or “Tell me about when your boss..” or “How would you say you ….”.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Thanks! I’m curious if you remember what their big picture thoughts were about the rating questions (I would have been less surprised how I would rate myself, vs how I thought my boss would rate me). The funny thing is that I am well prepared for the situational/behavioral interview questions from reading AAM and I have been getting asked them so often. Like, yesterday someone asked me “tell me about whether you’re organized or not, and tell the truth.” And then complained that it turns out often that people aren’t actually organized once he hires them!

        1. Book FTW*

          Sorry for the delay. Step one is to simplify. You should never be <=5 and you should never rate yourself a 10, so you need to pick from between 6 and 9. Personally I would always go with 8 or 9. I would say something like "I am an 8 because my manager can always rely on me to get the job done when it really needs to and there's a tough problem to solve. I am working to improve my skills in area X and working towards being a 9 or a 10".

    4. Windchime*

      The job I currently am in had the #3 requirement. At the time, my boss was Becky but I was applying for a job with Carmella. Becky was vengeful and was in fact the reason I was leaving, so I was naturally worried about what she would say to Carmella. Carmella thought the rule of “hiring manager must talk to candidates current boss” was really stupid but she didn’t have a choice; it was the rule. As it turned out, Becky refused to give me a reference at all but it didn’t matter to Carmella because I had lots of other good references.

      But yeah. I’m not sure what employers are thinking with that one. Tipping off managers that their employee is looking for a new job isn’t really a good thing.

  10. Ann Furthermore*

    I have a final interview today for a job I’ve got a very good vibe about, and really hope I get. They’re making it sound like it’s just a formality, but of course, nothing is guaranteed until there’s an offer letter in hand. The process has gone pretty fast, considering how many steps were involved. First I submitted my resume, and then I had to take this IQ test thing that they require everyone to take. Based on the Glassdoor reviews, some people find that a bit creepy and invasive, but I really don’t care. Then I had to take it again while being proctored to make sure I wasn’t using the internet to find answers – again, weird, but OK. The results must have shown that I’m not a halfwit, because then it was an HR interview, interviews with a PM and the IT director (both Tuesday), interviews with the finance director and senior IT director (both today), and one more in-person interview with the IT director again tomorrow. I submitted my resume on April 4th. The IT director, who I would report to, said in my first interview that he really liked me, my background, and my attitude and approach to things, so that’s a positive sign.

    I think this would be a great job, with a cool company, and it’s downtown. The train station is 3 miles from my house, and drops off a block away from the office. It’s a 40 minute ride, so it would be some built-in downtime every day to read or whatever, which would be lovely. I’m pretty sure my current employer is running out of money, so it’s time to move on – fast.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Thanks! It went very well. The director I met with, who would be my boss, said that they were moving towards making me an offer. So…I’m very encouraged.

        The only downside I could see was that it’s a completely open-concept office – not even half cubicle walls. I don’t think it’s a hot-desking setup, where you don’t even have your own assigned workspace, but still. I’m a bit of an introvert, so that will be a huge adjustment for me. I’ve never worked in a setup like that. But more and more companies are moving in this direction, so it’s something I need to get used to, I guess. I’m an old fart — just turned 50 — so I need to keep an open mind and be open to new experiences. :)

  11. Meyla*

    I’m worried that I don’t work enough hours. I have been at my current job for almost 2 years. My team works 2 week sprints, which means we have an explicit list of tasks to complete with a very clear start and end date. The team does not like to have tasks that “roll over” into the next sprint, so we’re pretty rigid about committing to what we know we can accomplish and no more/less.

    I work very quickly, so I tend to finish my assigned work by the end of the first week… which leads to a lot of downtime for me. Because of this, I tend to leave early multiple days of the second week when there isn’t anything left for me to do. I’d probably say 3 days of a 10 day sprint I will only work 7 hours. I feel really guilty about this, but I’m literally sitting idle browsing the internet or reading tech articles. I ask every day if I can help anyone with their work, and most of the time the answer is no. Should I feel bad or try to do something differently? I always get glowing reviews from my manager, and I am happy to work extra hours to meet a deadline that comes in last minute or offer support when there’s a problem (I worked 9am to 4am twice last year – I really don’t have a problem with that). I just feel like I’m doing something wrong when I don’t put in a 40 hour work week. I’ve taken to writing unit tests totally unrelated to my task just to fill in some of the time (even though by letter of the team “law”, I shouldn’t be).

    Does anyone else have a similar situation in a salaried position?

    1. dr_silverware*

      You get glowing reviews!

      By team law you should have exactly the right amount of work in a sprint. So go to your team lead/project manager and see if you can officially build in more work for you into the sprint–even if that’s unit tests or other process improvement. (Careful that you don’t get stuck as THE unit test person though!)

      If that’s not an option, then I think you’ve got two options–soak in the free time, or amortize your work over the full two weeks. Consider the amortization planning good practice in development time estimation. :)

    2. Scrum Master*

      You say “so we’re pretty rigid about committing to what we know we can accomplish and no more/less.” But you are committing to less work than you know you can accomplish. Have you been on a team that worked in sprints before? The point of the sprint is that the team commits to an amount of work that can be accomplished in two weeks (or whatever). If you’re completing all your work in the first week then you are not pulling enough work into the sprint. When you plan your sprint, pull in additional tasks that will keep you busy for the full sprint.

      1. Meyla*

        You’re completely right that personally I have less work than I’m capable of, but we’re bottlenecked by QA resources. If I take on more tasks, they certainly won’t be QA’d by the end of the sprint and therefore won’t be completely “done”. I’ve been trying to find work that can be done without needing QA resources, so that’s how I ended up spending time writing unit tests. Another part of the problem is that I feel like we over-estimate how much effort something will take due to the fact that there are a number of new people on our team, and therefore the sprint is planned with the right amount of work for a layman, but not enough for more experienced team members.

    3. Bea*

      As long as your work is done and done well, you are asking others if there is anything they need help with and so on, you are doing everything right. You just simply work at the pace you do and that’s normal for some of us!

      I wish I could leave instead of sitting around, sadly I’m also the “go to” for random questions that may pop up. So I’m stuck at work, I do leave 5-10 minutes early when possible and that’s never been a problem for anyone since it’s extremely rare anyone has something pop up at that time, they’re all wrapping up to go home and I’ve been wrapped up for hours!

    4. K-Ok*

      It sounds like your team is doing a really poor job of estimating capacity and story points. Its understandable that the team doesn’t want to over commit, but if this is a recurring theme, then the team is NOT maximizing velocity here, or even optimizing it. Its worth discussing one on one with your Scrum Master and letting them know whats going on. And, on an agile team, everyone should be able to perform multiple roles (e.g. cross functional) so you should be able to pick up other efforts like code review, test scripts, and testing (if your team performs these functions as well)

    5. only acting normal*

      Are you averaging 80hrs over the 2 weeks, but front weighted? Is everyone else there struggling to finish in the 2 weeks? Or is everyone sprinting to start then coasting to a finish, and you’re just a bit ahead of the curve?

      NB I’ve never worked anywhere that actually contracted anyone for 40hr weeks (I’ve had 35, 37.5, 36, and 37), so you’re still doing longer hours than I’ve ever even been contracted for. But I understand being underemployed is a massive downer. I once spent a week blatantly shopping for Xmas presents online to see if anyone cared, no one did – I still had to get out of there because I couldn’t *stand* being so bored.

      Is there a new skill you can train on in downtime with your manager’s blessing? Maybe something that will let you diversify your work within the team ? (e.g. I wish I had some downtime to properly learn some R or Python at the moment.)

    6. Seriously?*

      Talk to your manager. Tell them how much down time you have on average and ask if your team should take on additional work or if there are areas you can be trained in so that you can use that time productively or even if you can help out another team in your down time.

      1. Jules the Third*

        +1 Training training training, even if it’s just shadowing team members.

        My company’s working to implement this, and one benefit is supposed to be team members picking up work from others, so that the whole team’s capacity is increased. Your manager should be able to point you to areas where you can become useful.

    7. Samiratou*

      Sounds to me like the tasks you’re being assigned aren’t being estimated well and/or neither is your overall capacity.

      If the time estimates for your tasks are double what they should be, adjust the estimated hours/story points down accordingly, so that during sprint planning they can more accurately scope your work.

      If they aren’t willing to do that, or to add more work to you each sprint, have them queue up tasks in the next sprint that you can pull in to work on if you finish the rest of your work.

    8. The Ginger Ginger*

      Are you telling your manager or Project manager when you have open capacity during the sprint? Or are you just talking to your team? Because Project Manager especially should be able to task you something if you’ve got down time and have finished all your other tasks. If there’s really nothing left on the committed stories for the sprint, PMO and Product should be able to decide what additional work they could give you from the back log when you’re done with work for the sprint. This of course assumes there’s a healthy and well-groomed back log to pull from. But I’d start with that.

      You should also talk to your manager about how you’re not getting enough work each sprint, and ask how they want you to handle it when you’ve finished tasks and no one needs help. I’m not sure that it’s your whole team that has an estimation problem necessarily, but they’re definitely not using you to your fullest capacity, and that should be flagged for them.

      In sprint planning, when you’re agreeing to the tasks assigned to you (I’m assuming this is happening and not that you’re just getting assigned work without your agreement) are you also offering estimates of how long you think the task will take YOU vs. whatever the initial LOE was? Does that differ frequently? How much are they loading you up capacity-wise? At the beginning of the sprint are you tasked out to 90-100% of your available capacity and still finding down time? Or are they only topping you up to say, 75% of your available hours? If they’re tasking you to full, and you’re still getting done early, I would also talk to your manager and PMO about helping you do (or get, if you’re not doing them) better estimates, because there’s definitely a disconnect happening somewhere in that process.

      1. Meyla*

        Whether this is good or bad practice I’m not sure, but all our stories are groomed assuming a layman will be working on them (since about half our team is new to our products). This means that if I work on a story that I’m very familiar with, it’s sorely overestimated. We don’t estimate stories based on the individual who will be assigned to them. When the sprint starts, individuals select tickets they’d like to work on. There are sometimes a couple of stories that would be estimated appropriately for my familiarity with the product, but I tend to let other people get first dibs since overall I’m more experienced and I want the others to get familiar with anything they’re interested in.

        Our PM is aware that I tend to be idle – he uses it to his advantage since that means I’m available to help troubleshoot/supervise deployments during the day, but that might fill 3 hours of an 8 hour day. We under-estimate when loading the sprint in general because we are bottlenecked by QA resources (lost some people recently). I help with QA as much as I can, but our QA lead prefers to have QA specialists handle it since they are much more familiar with the process than I am.

        1. Blue_eyes*

          If your PM knows, and you’re always available for more work as needed, then I think you’re fine. It also sounds like this may be a temporary problem – will they be replacing the people who left from QA? If this is a short term issue until QA gets back up to full capacity, then I would just keep doing what you’re now in terms of letting people know you are available to help them. And as others suggested, you may want to bring it up in a retro in case your manager or PM wants to rebalance the work load or assign you more tickets each sprint.

        2. The Ginger Ginger*

          Agree. If your PM is in the loop there’s not too much else you can do at this point besides to mention it in the scrum meetings where it makes sense to do so.

          My team will sometimes task to stories as a SME (subject matter expert) so that people new to the product/project can come to them for help in a baked-in window of time. It works for us because it keeps us tracking those learning/teaching hours, and accounts for the time our experts are available to support our newbies. It also lets the newbies know they’re expected to get some assistance from our experts, so it can help them get up to speed faster. May or may not be something that your team would find helpful or even consider, but wanted to float that as something you could put time to if your PMO was into it.

    9. CAA*

      Have you brought this up at the sprint retrospectives? I agree with Scrum Master that there should be more work in the sprint, but since it’s a team commitment, the team has to recognize the problem and agree on the solution. Since this is a consistent issue for you, bring it up in your next retrospective. If you don’t regularly have those, talk to your scrum master about doing one soon.

      I suspect that the root cause of this problem is that your team that has a poor balance of skill sets, so there are too many developers and too few technical writers, testers, etc; which means if you take on enough coding work to keep all developers busy then your stories can’t really get all the way to done because there’s limited capacity somewhere else in the group. Scrum was originally intended for use with groups where everybody can do every job that needs to be completed, though that’s not the way we really use it, so we tend to end up with the too-much-work vs too-little-work problem.

      Also, swapping my scrum hat for my manager hat, I bet there really is work you could be doing even if there’s nothing left on your sprint board. Have you asked your manager if there’s anything else in the office or on another team that you could take on? Even on your own, there are always new software products and new skills you can be learning, relevant industry material you can be reading, etc.

      1. Meyla*

        You’re right about the root of the problem. We have a mix of new and veteran team members, and some of us aren’t as willing to wear all the hats vs stick to our niche (I am! But there’s definitely push back on that). I haven’t brought it up in retros yet since up until February I didn’t have this issue (we tended to bring too much into each sprint and we cut way back to make sure we meet everything we commit to). Also, I don’t get the impression that a lot of other people have the same problem so I don’t want to make waves about an issue that is only impacting me. I guess I could ask next week if anyone else feels the same. Maybe everyone isn’t speaking up?

        1. CAA*

          It’s totally appropriate to bring it up in a retrospective and ask the team to brainstorm a solution. Even if you’re the only one with the issue, inefficient use of resources is still a problem that affects the team’s output. Maybe a few members will have an aha moment and realize that they could commit to more if they shared part of their testing or documenting work with you; or maybe the team will look for more tasks that don’t impact QA, such as internal code documentation, refactoring stuff that’s already got automated tests, unit tests, etc.

    10. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Is it possibly that you are more efficient than your co-workers or maybe you can work at 100% longer than your co-workers? I know for me, when I have something to do, I put 100% into it, until it is done. If I am “focused” or “on a mission” (as my co-workers call it) I don’t socialize, I almost literally run people over, I seem to be zoned out, I sometimes even ignore (or barely acknowledge/respond) to routine greetings (like “Good Morning/How are you, etc.) and I am hyper-focused. Because of this, I often get things done quicker than some of my co-workers. If this is the case with you, then I wouldn’t worry about it.

      To clarify, I am not trying to brag on myself. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. We all have different work styles. It may be that I can work at 100% for Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday and then totally crash and only work at 50% for Thursday and Friday. Whereas, my co-workers can work at 80% for the whole week. This may seem like I get more done quicker but it is only for smaller projects and on Thursday or Friday, I don’t get much done at all. I don’t think there is anyone who could work at 100% for 5 days straight. I know couldn’t.

      1. Meyla*

        That’s definitely true for me as well. My coworkers need a lot more breaks than I do. I am excited to work on a new task and tend to put on my headphones and focus for 4 hours straight before I need to get up to pee. I don’t think either style is right or wrong, just different. I blame my long streaks of focus on 8 hour gaming sessions during college!

        1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

          I wish there was a way to indicate that you read a post and not have to say anything. Sort of like a “like” button. Though I do have to say 8 hour gaming sessions could definitely make someone hyper-focused!

    11. govt_drone*

      Everyone on my team has a running list of professional/technical development things they want to achieve over the week/month/year, plus there’s always technical debt to clean up. When we have excess capacity (usually because of bottlenecks) the norm is to do something from your PD list.
      For example, I have no sprint work left to do today so I’m organizing my old code into mini presentations or blog posts that I can share around. The last time I had a day or two to kill I brushed up on my differential calculus, learned how to make animated graphs, etc.

      You might think about putting together a list of things you’d like to improve, learn, etc and pull it out when you have downtime.

    12. Starbuck*

      “Only” 7 hours? That’s still pretty much a full day. Sounds like you must be salaried? I wouldn’t sweat it. I don’t have a task management set up like you, but the business of my job varies with the seasons, so some months I’m consistently working 40+ (or even 50+) hours a week, and other months I can come in late or leave early once or twice a week and no one worries about it. I don’t get paid a ton anyway, so I’m extra not worried about it. It’s not some moral failure to not work 40 hours every week.

  12. Quiet anon*

    I’m having trouble with socializing/fitting in at work. Whenever they arrive in the morning, they say hello to everyone but me by name. For example “Hi Jeff!” Or ” ‘Morning Mike” and just walk right by me. Or when multiple people take off on Friday, one particular coworker will complain that the day will go slowly because no one is here & acts like I don’t exist. When the people get back in the office on Monday, they complain about how quiet it was without them and how much they miss them.

    I’m quiet, but when I do try to talk with them, they seem annoyed and brush me off to go talk to someone else- so it’s not like I’m interrupting them- they just don’t want to talk to me.

    I don’t know if it’s a vibe I’m giving off or they just decided to hate me, but it is getting harder to go to work and put on a happy face.

    Is there any way to resolve this?

    1. Lois Lane*

      How long have you worked there? It may just be that this is an established office clique. Does your office do any team-building activities? Would your boss be open to that if you suggested it?

    2. Aaaaaaanon.*

      How long have you been at your job? Is there a big difference in tenure between you and your colleagues? If you’re the one relatively new person, that might be part of the issue and it’ll improve with time.

      Maybe find one colleague with whom you can establish a strong one-on-one relationship, and have them help integrate you into the group?

    3. Meyla*

      I had the same experience when I started my current job. Most of my teammates work from home on Friday, but I don’t like to do that so it was usually me and 1 or 2 other people in the office that day. They’d complain loudly that it was so quiet and they were all alone even though I was sitting 5 feet away. It took probably 6 months for them to realize that I have RBF but I’m otherwise harmless. It definitely hurt to not be part of the cool kids club at first, but now it’s fine.

      I do make a particular point to try to be overly inclusive when someone new joins the team, so they don’t have to be in the “outer circle” unless they choose to.

    4. Bea*

      Honestly they sound cliquish and like self absorbed dicks if they really are annoyed and brush you off. That is sadly some office cultures, they just don’t bring in the newer folks readily and they suck.

      However sometimes when we’re shy and quiet, which I was very much so in my youth, sometimes we “feel” like we’re annoying or that we’re being brushed off. I have made an effort to try to shake those feelings and unless someone says “I wasn’t talking to you” or walks away when I’m talking, I assume that they’re not actually bothered by my interjections. I did this at my last place when I started working there and it was awkward and we had a couple prickly personalities that it took a minute to realize that no, they’re just resting grumpy faced and snarly SOUNDING but they loved me in the end once I warmed them up.

    5. Lumen*

      I have some suggestions to try. They aren’t guaranteed to help, but they’re what I would hope a friend would tell me to do:

      Say “Hi, Bob!” to the person who normally walks right by you. Not in a passive-aggressive or pointed way. Just congenial and polite, the way they speak to Jeff and Mike. It doesn’t need any follow-up. Just make a mental note to say hello to people as you walk through the hall, whether or not they usually do the same for you.

      When your coworker complains that the day will go slowly because ‘everyone’ takes off on Friday, you have two options to try out, depending on which you’re comfortable with:
      1) “I KNOW. We should throw a mini office rave.” – Joke around, but in a “we’re in this together” way, because that may be how your coworker actually means it. It’s entirely possible they’re trying to engage you and feel less lonely when people they know better are out for the day.
      2) Some version of “What am I, chopped liver?” I wouldn’t suggest doing this if you’re feeling annoyed or hurt by the coworker, because I think that frustration will come through the sarcasm. But if you can keep it light, it may be a gentle way of pointing out that um, you aren’t invisible, and they aren’t in a ghost town.

      On Monday, when your coworker tells others that they were missed, try not to take that as personally. Maybe they just know those coworkers better and missed them. I don’t mean this to be dismissive, but they’re allowed to miss their friends at work, and that’s not really a comment on you. Or: it doesn’t have to be. You don’t have to absorb that.

      And finally: I have been there. At my current job, I felt for most of the first year (and still sometimes feel) like most people don’t really like me and get annoyed if I try to talk to them. There are a lot of cliques. It’s gotten better, and I realized that a lot of them were slow to warm up and that I wasn’t making much effort (and also, my social anxiety was spiking pretty hard for my first 6 months so I WAS pretty awkward). But some people still just aren’t interested in chatting with me.

      I try to stay friendly and open-minded with people at the office, even the ones who seem brusque. Some of them have thawed towards me, just very slowly. Others don’t care. And that’s okay, because it gives me more energy to put towards my life and friendships outside of work. Even if everyone at work honestly disliked me, that doesn’t mean they’re right. Even if they HATED me, it doesn’t mean I’m hateable.

      If your coworkers are just jerks, just remember that isn’t a comment on you (not one you have to take seriously, at least) – their poor manners say more about them than you. Keep your side of the street clean and be collegial even if they aren’t, and otherwise? Don’t think about them.

      1. Eye of Sauron*

        I think your suggestions are good ones. It’s easy to take things the wrong way when you’re insecure, which would be understandable if you feel like an outsider in your workplace. Including yourself in these statements will lead to the coworkers including you in the statements.

    6. Millennial Lawyer*

      Going to work and putting on a happy face might improve things, actually. Why don’t you say good morning when you see them? Ask them how their day is? Give them a smile? You may be putting out a vibe that you’d like to be left alone. An alternative is they might know the other colleagues more/been to happy hour with them/connected with them and don’t have a relationship with you yet. Feel free to start forming them yourself!

    7. Not Maeby But Surely*

      That would bother me, too. If I heard someone say the “No one’s here today” bit, I would respond in the moment with “Gee, thanks”, “Sweet, I guess I get the day off too then” or a similar what-am-I-chopped-liver kind of response. It will at least bring their attention to the fact that they do it. But it’s possible that the “no one” they’re referring to are their work friends, so it might not be a personal jab at you, but rather an “I miss my friends” thing. For some reason, I’d not be inclined to go the sympathetic route.

      For the greeting thing, I would just make the first move and greet them first with a cheery hello. If they purposely don’t response, then you know they are likely just jerks and to not expend any more energy caring whether they say hello or not.

      1. Louise*

        This feels a little passive aggressive to me, but I tend to be a catch more flies with honey person. I’d probably hit em with an “I know right? so quiet! Would you wanna grab some coffee later?” It can be really scary and vulnerable to make the first step of inviting someone to something, but it can really be a game changer!

    8. foolofgrace*

      You’d need a thick skin for this, but maybe you could try saying “Good morning, Mike” first — greet as many as possible by name. Do this for a week and see where you are at that time. I say “thick skin” because at first people might not respond as you’d hope, and that might just continue, and you’d have to continue to reach out. It’s probably not personal, just an office clique that doesn’t quite know how to reach out to the new guy.

    9. OhBehave*

      This sounds like a concerted effort to alienate you. I’m wondering if you replaced a beloved coworker or it’s just a toxic workplace.
      I would definitely say (to the rude person who claims no one is there), I’m here. Want some coffee/lunch?
      Do you say hello to everyone when you arrive? If they continue to ignore you, just say Good Morning as if they didn’t ignore.
      If you have a supervisor, assuming they aren’t doing the same things, I would ask in a casual manner how long it takes to assimilate!
      I hope you can get to the bottom of things. It would bug the heck out of me. Please update us!

    10. Reader*

      I have no real advice but a lot of sympathy.

      This post + the cemetery reader + nosy coworkers posts sums up why I’m sick and tired of working in office environments. Surely this sort of thing can happen in different work environments, but it seems like a definite by-product of the “boredom” and inevitable downtime that comes from office work, in my experience. It took me a long time (and the firing of a lot of cliquey coworkers which was a lucky break) for me to meet like-minded colleagues with whom I could develop a friendly rapport. Unfortunately, most of these friendly co-workers have moved on and it feels like I’m back to square one.

      I’m desperately looking for a realistic job (i.e. not manual labour which I can’t do) where I don’t have to deal with this. Working remotely would be a dream for me.

      1. Quiet anon*

        +1000000!!! Same here! I envy people who can work from home or remotely! The offices that I have worked in have so much drama and gossip- it makes me uncomfortable, but some people thrive on all of that. Plus there are a lot of “stronger” personalities that bully those they deem weaker than them. It’s like “Hunger Games:Office Edition.” Right now I’m just grateful for the paycheck and insurance, but wish I could find someplace more peaceful/less dramatic.

  13. Nervous Accountant*

    In this week’s episode of WTFery–

    so a lot of clients request reassignments. usually it’s b/c they feel the current accountant isn’t as responsive or personality clash. w/e, nbd.

    on occasion, we get the clients (male and female) who say they want a female accountant, or someone with no accent. I posted about the former on here and got some good insight on that…..a crazy one was where there was the client who thought the accountant was flirting w/ her husband.

    this tops that (IMO).

    Sales team reaches out and says a new client wants someone Christian like themselves. The accountant he was already assigned to and hadn’t even spoken to yet was Muslim.

    After seeing red for a bit, I calmed down and told the salesperson while we can accommodate this one time…. but we can’t do this on a regular basis. I also said that I wasn’t sure what level of Christianity the new accountant followed that the client would be comfortable with. (not sure if anyone could pick up on that sarcasm?).

    Do yall know how icky that is??? We’re a very casual office and joke around A LOT….but this was too much for me. If I was in a higher position I SO WISH i could have just fired the client and reamed out the sales guy for even making that request. (maybe it’s good that I”m not at that level??).

    Salesguy and I had a quick back and forth and to his credit, he did seem to feel bad about making that request so hopefully this was just a one-off thing.

    1. ExcelJedi*

      That’s so squicky. No one in my company even knows my religion, and I’d probably outright tell them it was an inappropriate conversation if asked. If a client asked, I’d (probably) be nicer about redirecting, but there’s no way I’d tell them.

      Also, how did they know the accountant was Muslim? Did the salesperson tell them? Or was it just an assumption based on a name or picture or something?

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        They get an email w the persons name etc. He had a Muslim name.

        Issues w identifying as one religion or another aside….I’ve openly told my mgr that the day someone says they refuse to work w me solely bc of my religion, all hell willbrrwk loose.

        2. LKW*

          I think you mean he had a typically Middle Eastern name, because with a few exceptions, most names aren’t indicators of religion. That’s probably a good reminder to your sales person. I know Jewish people with the last name Gentile. There are Christians all over the world with the last name Chan or El Bar or Smith.

          1. JHunz*

            Well, there is one particular first name that’s extremely common among Muslims and not at all otherwise…

          2. Nervous Accountant*

            I’m not sure what you mean. He’s not middle eastern. I know the person and I know they are Muslim and he has a name that definitely was not “Christian” according to the client.

          3. Plague of frogs*

            In India (I’m told) you can determine someone’s religion by their name. If they convert, they will often change their names.

            I seriously doubt this prejudiced shitbag of a client is aware of that, but I just thought I would bring it up.

        3. Student*

          So why will all hell break loose when somebody does it to YOU, but not when somebody does it to your employee?

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            He’s my peer not my employee. And I did do my best to shut it down in whatever capacity I could.

            And the raise hell was supposed to be tongue in cheek… my apologies.

    5. Al who is that Al*

      Oops, replied to wrong person – Say you only have Pagans or Buddhists currently available !

    6. Lily*

      A script the sales team could use with the client could be, “We want to do everything we can to make you comfortable — but we certainly don’t want to get you or us in legal hot water here, since [sex/race/religion] is a federally-protected class. Let’s talk about what your biggest priorities are here [responsiveness to emails, familiarity with certain area of accounting, etc.] and make sure we find someone who’s a good fit for that.”

      1. Lefty*

        This is a great script for a situation that makes me want to use an arsenal of four letter words.

      2. You're Not My Supervisor*

        But isn’t gender a protected class? That would mean they couldn’t make accommodations based on gender either. Not that I think they should/shouldn’t… just saying the script changes things for them…

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          We’ll thats interesting. A while back I asked why people want to work w female accountants only and I got some good insight. IME only it’s been for not so good reasons and I wish we could do away w that as well but what the client wants the client gets…..

          1. Jules the Third*

            If the client wants you to hide income, do they get that? No, of course not, it’s illegal!

            So is assigning work based on gender or religion.

            1. ronda*

              it is illegal for the employer to discriminate. it is not illegal for the customer to decide who they want to work with.

              1. Jules the Third*

                Nervous Accountant’s company chose to not assign work to someone because he is Muslim. That looks illegal to me.

                The customer can request whatever they want; if it’s illegal, the company has the responsibility to not support their illegal request.

    7. Bea*

      I would make it a practice to tell that kind of person that we do not have the means to accommodate them, since we do not ask our staff’s religious affiliations and it’s a private matter all together.

      They are welcome to go find an All White Man Accounting Firm if they’re sooooooooooo put out but at some point you cannot cater to these bigoted jerks. Seriously, call up your church’s CPA, bro!

      1. Turtle of Flames*

        +100
        Tell them that because religion is considered a private matter for all employees, you don’t know who is or is not Christian, so they will get a randomly assigned but competent accountant.

      2. LKW*

        This. Name rarely indicates religion. I’ll give a nod to folks with the first name Jesus, Christian or Christina or Christopher as well as those named Mohammed though.

        1. Student*

          A name is (possibly) a reflection of their parents’ faith. It doesn’t mean the person with the name is actually a member of that faith.

        2. Who the eff is Hank?*

          My husband and I considered the name Christian as a baby name, and we are not of the Christian faith. We just like how the name sounds.

        3. Mephyle*

          A famous example is filmmaker Norman Jewison who is, in fact gentile, Protestant Christian to be specific. His father was of English and Ulster-Scots/Northern Irish background, and the surname is not actually Jewish.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. This. Churches do publish booklets of Christian owned businesses. While it’s not anything I have ever felt a need for, I do see that some people use a shared belief system as a way of filtering people. Just my opinion, but the people who do this can be uncertain or worried for a number of reasons. I mean these might be people LOADED with worry. They think that if they find someone of a shared faith that will help them to worry less. (Actually what they need is someone who is good at their job. I can be the best Church Person ever and still be bad at my job.)

        Just tell them that you are sorry but matching up people by faith is not a service you can provide. Then move on to say that each of your staff have qualifications x, y and z. Tell them that the best you can do is assure them that the person assigned to them is well qualified and will do a thorough job.

        1. Kuododi*

          Ironically, the worst experiences DH and I have had over the years has been from business persons who were quick to identify themselves as “Christian business owners.”. At best the quality of the work was ghastly, at worst we’ve been outright hustled!!!

    10. Millennial Lawyer*

      I know what you already said can’t be changed (unless it can) but this never should have been accommodated. Your company has now involved itself in giving a Christian employee an opportunity meant for a Muslim employee purely on the basis of religion. I don’t know the full legality of it but this is NOT something you want to be involved in doing. Kindly tell the client you can not accommodate that request.

      1. LouiseM*

        +1. This Muslim accountant is being discriminated against on the basis of his faith…not by the client, who sounds like an ass, but by the company. Full stop. This needs to end!

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        I know, I feel like it should never have even reached us at all, it should have stopped at the salesperson.

      3. fposte*

        Yeah, the feds are pretty clear that accommodating client preference isn’t sufficient justification. Accounting firm did a dumb.

          1. Millennial Lawyer*

            The article is just analyzing a theory of how best to tackle customer discrimination – I don’t think it disproves what you said.

    11. Making Me Think Too Hard on Friday*

      I could maybe see this being not horrible if the client was a religious institution and even then it is a stretch. While reading this though I found what bugs me is that it is someone Christian asking for a Christian but if it were reversed and a Muslim was requesting another Muslim I wouldn’t have any issues with that. I’m not really sure why though…
      For the record I identify as Christian even though I am not particularly religious.

      1. Jules the Third*

        Because of ‘punch down’ – xtians are dominant in the culture.

        It’s actually very wrong in both cases, and possibly illegal. Religion is a protected class.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        The client worked at a church and that’s y he wanted someone “like himself.”

        1. Plague of frogs*

          In that case, tell him you can’t accommodate him because you don’t employ assholes.

        2. Bea W*

          I almost feel like that’s even worse. The client isn’t even owning his bigotry. He’s explaining why his request is okay. No! It’s still not okay. No one at my church would think this is okay. This just doubles my horror and disgust. FFS!

    12. The Opening Act*

      Why on earth did you accommodate this, even once?! Is this even legal? Your company is now assigning work on the basis of religion, which seems like a discrimination case waiting to happen! I’m not in the US so not entirely sure if the legal situation, but it seems dangerous to me.

      This should have been shut down the first time it was raised, and hard!

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I don’t know about the legalities. I’m not a lawyer. I was plenty outraged about this. But someone mentioned above about opportunities-that’s not the case here. I mean 1 client goes away, there’s more in its place so the original guy is hardly going to suffer from lack of opportunities. Almost everyone just laughed it off as “what a nut job” so idk. Our salespeople tend to do this a lot and are run by another Dept so as much as we want to fight back it’s generally a pick your battles situation.

    13. mrs_helm*

      This won’t be popular, but what if New Client (NC) had a reason? Like, they want to do financial planning and have a lot of goals that revolve around church/tithing/missions. Their last accountant was aggressively anti-Christian, and really critical of those goals, and that’s the whole reason they are moving to a new accountant.

      We’re all over here *assuming* this client was prejudiced against the Muslim, and that’s possible…but we don’t KNOW that’s the case.

      1. Jules the Third*

        Even if their last accountant was that unprofessional, they are applying that unprofessionalism to a new accountant based solely on the religious differences.

        That’s actually the definition of prejudice.

        1. mrs_helm*

          So, what could a client who wants to avoid that previous issue do differently? Send a prescreening survey asking if the accountant has experience with, and can be positive in their support of, x,y, and z endeavors?

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            Well, clients can (and do) always ask “do you have experience in X Y Z?” And we accommodate them.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        I am not sure what you mean. Previous accountant who has a non-Christian sounding name? If that’s who you mean, he never actually got to work w the client.

    14. Jules the Third*

      Nervous Accountant, I think you really messed up here. This sounds like illegal discrimination against your Muslim employee. I think you need to make sure your sales team understands the legal implications of these requests, and that you, or someone, coaches them through ‘No You May Not Discriminate Here’ responses.

      Also, I’ve missed some of the prior posts, but if you are allowing people to choose the gender or accent of their accountant, that sounds pretty illegal too. Even if they’re preferring female accountants. The protected class laws don’t take into account society’s gender power structure, they just say you can’t discriminate based on gender.

      I understand that you, personally, are seeing red at having to deal with the bigots, but if you’re the one saying ‘yes we can do that’, even once – you’re right in the targets of a complaint or lawsuit. You need to get a ‘Hey boss, we get asked to discriminate, here’s the legal, non-discriminatory way I handle that, and here’s my suggestions for the sales team responses when they get the request’ email up your chain, asap.

      1. Arjay*

        I don’t think this is illegal discrimination. It doesn’t seem any different than someone requesting a female massage therapist. It’s rough out there for male massage therapists because both male and female clients often prefer female therapists. It might be unfair, but I don’t see where it’s illegal.

        1. WonderingHowIGotHere*

          I think the gender thing is different to the religious thing though. I’ve (to my own health detriment) cancelled cervical smear appointments when the surgery couldn’t guarantee a female gynacologist covering for vacations. I would get into a panic at the thought of a male (fully qualified and professional) gynacologist anywhere near me in this vunerable condition because of reasons.
          But if my nurse was Christian, Buddist, Muslim, or worshiped the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it wouldn’t matter because that has no bearing on my reasons, and I cannot see any other reasons beyond simple prejudice for it to be considered.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        The only exception I can think of here is if a person had a hearing impairment and honestly could not understand a person with an accent. I am fine in person, but over the phone it is hard for me to understand accents. I have a slight hearing impairment which combined with the crappy phone service makes it so that I get maybe every 5th or 6th word. I would think that other people with a real hearing loss could have a harder time in person. In a case like this it’s just two people who are not a good match up for practical purposes.

        NA, FWIW, I think you handled the situation fine. You had an unfamiliar situation. I don’t think your bosses train or guide you as well as they could. You limited your decision to this ONE time. That was a smart move. Then you decided to ask here what to do. Yet another good move. I have made similar decisions, when we are in the moment we have seconds to figure out what to do. A good move is to say, that you will do it once. Going forward you can say, “Well, I said I would do it once because I wanted to check into proper procedure. I checked. I can’t do that again.” If the same customer ever asks again, you can add, “Please don’t ask me to do that again, because I can’t and I won’t.”

        1. Pina Colada*

          My comment posted below, but it was in reply to Not So New Reader

          I don’t see how religion implies having or not having an accent though. Is the assumption that Christian=English speaking? There are certainly many English-speaking people of non-Christian faiths, and many non-English speaking Christians, and every variety in between. Language=/=religion=/=culture=/=race

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Whoops sorry that could have been clearer.I was agreeing with Jules with the very limited exception of someone with a hearing impairment, where they honestly could not understand what was being said.

      3. Nervous Accountant*

        I don’t consider it that i am allowing anyone to do anything of the sort…I have absolutely -0- standing to control or train the sales team.. it’s a totally separate dept run by separate set of people and my mgr & boss reports to their boss (VP) . The best I can do is state my opinion, and hope that it gets through to someone and know how to act going forward. That dept does a whole bunch of other things that are just sleazy or plain weird.

        1. Jules the Third*

          “I … told the salesperson while we can accommodate this one time”. That means you have some kind of standing in this decision, and that means you are at risk if someone takes this to the EEOC.

          I would cover my legal a** real fast with this, personally, with a strongly worded email to my manager at least. Those come across better if you provide some strategies for dealing with the concern.

          And you’ve been here on AAM long enough to know some basic legalities – you can’t not assign someone work based on their religion or gender. Any work = opportunity. If you’ve been assigning accounts based on gender for a while, that’s a *pattern* of discrimination.

          You are hiding from the full implications with ‘I don’t know about legalities’ and ‘I don’t know that they lost opportunities’, please stop and think this one through. We know your heart is in the right place, but you need to do some CYA actions, which may incidentally also help your company get its actions in the right place.

          Just because the customers are jerks doesn’t mean that your company is legally allowed to accommodate their jerkness.

          2. Nervous Accountant*

            I did send mgr a strong email.

            What I meant by no lost opportunities is that the volume of work is SO high, 1 client goes there’s 2 more in its place. So no one really *feels* that a client is lost.

            But I c what ur saying. Thanks

    15. Arjay*

      I agree with the squick factor, but there are people/programs that tie Christianity and budgeting together. I can see a client who follows one of those philosophies feeling like they want an accountant who would understand that mindset personally. I don’t think this is the way to do that but it could be oinforming the request.

    16. Nervous Accountant*

      pls dont get me wrong, i’m not defending what happened or minimize it any way. There’s a reason it felt so messed up to me. Maybe I just have a limited view as to what I could possibly do or have done.

      In the past I’ve been the recipient (if someone wanted a female accountant, they all came to me) so I couldn’t push back against that. I’m still brand new to *this* particular thing.

      There were rare incidents in the past (way before I started) where the mgr said “Ok client we are firing you b/c we don’t discriminate.”…in my view they were those who wouldn’t get fired at the drop of a hat. I guess I still hold on to that fear despite getting more and more responsibilities and growing, so I just really don’t want to mess anything up.

    17. Drama Llama*

      Oh my. I would have told them we don’t have knowledge of staff’s private religious beliefs, so we will not be able to accommodate that. And if he doesn’t like it presumably he can go find another company to take his business.

  14. Lil Fidget*

    I have been beating myself up all week for not being more productive. Today I sat down to read something I’ve been meaning to get to for two weeks. Well, I never made it more than ten minutes before somebody came by to disrupt me. Either people talking loudly nearby, or someone actually coming to my desk to bug me about something. No wonder I never get anything done.

    I hate our open office with the power of a thousand suns – I feel like I can never get to deep concentration, I’m always sort of on alert mode, skimming lightly while waiting for the next thing that’s about to come up.

    1. Quaggaquagga*

      “I’m always sort of on alert mode.” Huh, I also work (and dislike working) in an open office and haven’t really been fully conscious of the fact that yes, I am constantly waiting for the next thing to interrupt my day. Open offices really are the worst!

    2. KR*

      Same. There’s only three people in my office but one of them is so loud. I would kill for my own office.

    3. Snickerdoodle*

      Can you wear headphones? My earbuds are a godsend (e.g. right now, when my cube neighbor is in the middle of a drama-filled personal call). We also have signage posted here and there reminding people to be quiet since people are working, and cube etiquette gets addressed from time to time in division meetings. At my old job, I had to tell people to shut up because I couldn’t hear people on the phone when they were bellowing two feet from my desk. Happily, that’s rarely a problem here, but asking people directly to keep it down is probably your only safe bet. You could also take a quick break and then come back when they’ve dispersed.

      Whenever I have a high-priority project that can’t be interrupted, I shove a chair in my cubicle entrance with a sign that says NO. Can you do something like that?

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I do use headphones to drown out nearby chatter when I’m working on something mindless, but I have a difficult time doing something that requires deep concentration (like reading this in depth report) while listening to music, and my headphones do eventually give me a headache. I haven’t tried the serious sound cancelling ones, that might be the way to go.

        1. Bowl of Oranges*

          Have you tried listening to white noise or music specifically geared towards concentration? There are a TON of videos on Youtube if you search for “music for concentration” – those help me a lot. They aren’t distracting, but really help drown out outside noises.

        2. Thlayli*

          Have you tried earplugs? We have a lot of loud machinery onsite so we have boxes of earplugs and they are great for concentration. But you can just buy them in pharmacies or online too

      2. leukothea*

        When I need to concentrate in my open-office concept mini-cubicle, I listen to pop music in languages I can’t understand. The high-energy peppy music helps drown out whatever else is going on around me, but I can’t understand a single thing they’re singing about so I don’t get sucked into the songs. Pandora has a great selection of Korean pop music.

    4. Your Tax Dollars at Work*

      Open office plans are THE WORST! Ours isn’t even cubicles, just desks in a big room and we can’t wear headphones. I don’t have any advice for you, just…good luck my friend.

    5. A. Schuyler*

      To add some balance, I’ve only worked in an open office and I don’t have these complaints. Our team wouldn’t be nearly as productive if we couldn’t just spin around to discuss or collaborate. If anything, I’d prefer to be in one of the activity based offices with lots of different types of unallocated desks, where I can choose the best way to work on any given task.

    6. Runner*

      My office actually has cubes, and even some have slide doors, but it’s still wide open with nothing running to the ceiling, you can hear everyone within whatever your normal earshot accomodates (50 yards in all directions?). The guy in the cube next to me nervously bounces his leg loudly for hours on end. Drives everyone up the wall. It’s like working next to an oblivious preteen.

  15. Naptime Enthusiast*

    I’m traveling business class for an international work trip with people that are not in my work group – they are the business and logistics side, I’m the technical expert. We leave Saturday, arrive Sunday, and start working Monday morning. How comfortably can I dress getting on the plane without looking out of place? If I were traveling coach or by myself, I would be in stretchy pants and sneakers.

    If it makes a difference, the site we’re travelling to is a business casual manufacturing shop so it will be dress pants and safety shoes during the day, but casual attire after working hours.

    1. Triumphant Fox*

      This depends on your gender, I think. For women, I’d recommend a comfortable knit dress, leggings and comfortable shoes (do you have less sneaker-like sneakers? All black or more muted tend to blend in). If you were in all black, you’d look dressier and can get away with more. I also bring scarves along for layering and to dress things up without being uncomfortable. As long as you’re not in straight-up workout gear, you wouldn’t be out of place to me, but I’ve been wearing tennis shoes every day of my pregnancy to save my feet and not really caring if they go with my outfit…so my rules may have become more lax recently.
      For men, I think stretchy pants and sneakers would be too casual. You’d be good in a polo (since those seem nicer but also comfortable) and khakis or some other pant that can be comfortable but still look less like workout gear. You could probably get away with most footwear except sandals/flip flops.

        1. Bea W*

          You absolutely do not! I even ended up in that really posh super exclusive British Airways First once. No one expects you to wear a dress to business class. You spend most of the time curled up under your complementary blanket anyhow. You could be naked at that point, and no one would know (Just don’t remove the blanket!).

      2. AcademiaNut*

        I travel long haul for work regularly. My travel outfit (literally – I wear it only for long flights), is a pair of very comfortable linen blend slacks with a relaxed waistband and cloth tie, a short sleeved tunic style top which goes past my butt, and a pair of long socks. If you get cold easily, add a wrap of some sort. I wear comfortable shoes – I’m not running around an airport in dress shoes – but change into cloth slippers on the plane.

        This is respectable enough to not cause issues in airports and comfortable enough to sleep in in economy class, without worrying about exposing myself. The long socks are to keep my lower legs warm while sleeping. It also packs up small and is machine washable.

        I never wear dresses for work, and won’t wear anything that doesn’t have pockets to put tissues in.

    2. Still Looking*

      For a flight where you will not be going straight to the job on arrival I dress comfortably in casual attire. I will often layer my tops because it could be hot or cold or anything in between on the plane. For an overnight international flight I wear something I can sleep comfortably in that is not pajamas and suitable for day wear. I’ve flown international business class, and dress on overnight flights, especially weekends is mostly casual. Some people may be dressed up, but they are likely meeting business associates on arrival. You will even see these people slip their shoes off and put on the complementary plane socks over their existing socks. That way they can rest comfortably without the fancy shoes while keeping their dress socks clean.

      Dress code in business really isn’t different from what you see in coach. What you normally wear there is fine.

    3. Parenthetically*

      I’ve spent plenty of time in business class lounges and I see loads of women in leggings and sneakers — nice ones, but still. Long tunic, nice leggings, comfy flats, nice scarf, sunglasses, oversized purse, attitude of insouciance.

    4. pat benetardis*

      I’m a woman who flies international business class with coworkers/colleagues a few times a year. If i don’t have to do business when I land (and I’m flying overnight from US to EU) I wear yoga pants and sneakers or other comfortable slip on shoes. I usually wear something flowy and comfortable on top. Because basically, I’m going to be trying to sleep. So I’m going to try to be as comfortable as possible. And I do not stick out as being underdressed.

    5. Eye of Sauron*

      Yep it depends on the plans when you get there, but if it’s a Red Eye flight then I would err on the side of comfortable. Stretch pants would be fine, but I’d stay away from the ones that say ‘Juicy’ across the backside :) And just make sure that you stay in the comfortable but not slobby realm because of the coworker factor.

      Business or first class doesn’t have a dress code, so I wouldn’t really worry about that aspect. I don’t dress any different because of my seat. (Yesterday flew FC home and wore jeans, t-shirt, sweater, and birkenstocks )

    6. Naptime Enthusiast*

      I am female, I’m also at least 5 years younger than everyone else on the trip. It doesn’t sound like a lot now that I type it out, so maybe I’m reading into that too much. It’s a red eye so yes I will definitely try and sleep! Thanks all :)

      1. Thlayli*

        They might actually give you free pyjamas in business class – they did when I flew overnight. I always wear comfy clothes for travelling unless it’s a short hop.

    1. KatieKate*

      Wow, they were far more kind to the MLM scams than I would have been. There was one mention of “oh you can only make money if you recruit people” but overall it made them seem like a genuine employment possibility. Not a fan

      1. Lady Jay*

        I read this article today. I was struck by the woman who left her high level management position to run her MLM, because she was making more money that way. Sure, you’re making more money *now,* but what happens when you want to advance? Or take a step forward in your career? She’s deadending herself!

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          So, I’m actually friends with that woman. And she recently accepted a high level management position with a different MLM company. I don’t think it was mentioned in the article, but a big part of her decision to do that was to be at home with her son.

                1. Detective Amy Santiago*

                  I actually posted a thing on her wall the other day about her vacation souvenirs.

                  Feel free to PM me on there if you want :)

          2. Lady Jay*

            Cool. I guess that makes sense. Personal life situations (e.g. staying home with one’s child) can make what seems like a bad decision from the outside be a genuinely good decision. Awesome that she’s doing well!

        2. Nico M*

          MLMs are evil.

          If she prospers, it’s only at someone elses cost .

          I’d have more respect for a drug dealer.

      2. H*

        I read this earlier this week and found it very forgiving, too.

        I found this article lacking ANY mention of essential oil MLMs which seem to be A Thing unto themselves, at least among my high school graduating class (we’re all 30 now).

          1. JustaTech*

            MLM scam and medical nonsense scam all rolled into one! Two terrible things that taste terrible together! (Essential oils can smell nice, but they are not medicine and can make people sick.)

      3. Reba*

        I mean, “mass hoax” is in the title, but then they use the phrase “join the workforce”!

        I appreciated the closing quote. Big picture but empathetic.

        1. JustaTech*

          Here’s another thing that this article didn’t address but is a big issue with MLM’s: they don’t count towards your Social Security. But you do have to pay taxes on your earnings.

          A friend of mine did Mary Kay (for about 2 months) and at her big “first party” the lady 2 levels up tried to convince us that if we lived in a studio we could write off all our rent on our taxes as a business expense because our apartment would be our office. The actual tax professional in the room told us (after Mary Kay lady left) that is the kind of claim that gets you audited something fierce.

    2. stej*

      Every article on MLMs is the same story with different names, and it always makes me feel so sad.

    3. EmilyAnn*

      I have very strong feelings about MLMs and I think that article is one of the best ever written about them. As a logical person, I couldn’t really understand why people who are so well informed about the odds of being successful continued to sign up to do these things. The community aspect that the article explained in depth helped me understand the value of belonging to one of those ventures.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I’m actually also friends with the person who wrote the article and she spent 2 years working on this piece.

    4. anna green*

      “I’ve always been a stay-at-home mom—an educated stay-at-home mom at that,” Hosey said. “I have a college degree, as a lot of women on our team do. We choose to stay home and see our kids grow up.”

      Ugh. I realize this isn’t the point of the article, but statements like this make me so aggravated! As a working mom, I am also seeing my kids grow up. Seriously. I respect her choice to stay home., but stop the backhanded remarks. It’s not possible for everyone and doesn’t make me less of their mother.

      Sorry. End rant.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Ugh, agreed. I’m not a mom — but I’m the daughter of a mom who always worked crazy-ass long hours to give me and my brother a good upbringing, and I hate the implication that she must have loved us less because she didn’t drop everything to stay home with us.

      2. Thursday Next*

        Yeah, I think it’s a a defensive statement, though. As in, they’re feeling so maligned for or insecure about being stay-at-home parents that this is how they have to spin it.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, that left a bad taste in my mouth. I don’t have children (you all know I would if I could), and I’m sure I would not want to leave them but I’m almost equally sure I would still want to do some type of get-me-out-of-the-house-among-grownups work.

      4. The New Wanderer*

        Gee, right now I’m a highly educated stay-at-home mom. I’m choosing to get back to an actual job ASAP. Seriously, I’m enjoying my time off (exceptions for the periodic job hunt-related anxiety attacks), but I have never, ever considered doing this kind of side gig. Frankly it sounds exhausting! That bit about attending all the meetings and reviewing spreadsheets and presentations and guidelines – that’s bad enough at a job with a guaranteed salary and no sales requirement. You couldn’t pay me enough to spend my time that way.

        I know a few people trying to make a go of various MLMs, and they seem to have similar personality characteristics. All moms, all extroverts, and all to whom the (however manufactured) community or social network aspect would be highly appealing. The team-building stuff that would have me rolling my eyes so hard is what they look forward to most. This article is probably the best description of how effective the blurring of the lines between friend and up/downline relationships is.

      5. Ann O.*

        I always find it so insulting to the fathers, too. Are the fathers not seeing the kids grow up? Why do they think it’s okay for their husbands to work (because these statements almost always come from heterosexual married women) and not see the kids grow up?

    5. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      My cousin recently started working for a company that sells financial products and insurance, but functions like a MLM. She talked me into attending a “meeting” at their facility, which she talked about as if it were an informative meeting about personal finance, but it was really a sales gig to try to recruit people into selling for them, and then to recruit their friends to become salespeople, and so forth. I was pretty ticked that she had wasted my evening, having to listen to a ridiculous sales pitch. I can’t get over how much I loathe MLM companies. They come off as so sneaky and underhanded.

      1. SmallCog*

        A work acquaintance just joined something exactly like this – and she’s not at all open to hearing that it’s a MLM, even when we did “The Office’s” pyramid scheme drawing. . . it’s sad. She’s clearly the kind they prey on.

      2. shep*

        My first boss did this to me, asking me to meet with her and her husband so he could practice his sales pitch. The person whom I suppose recruited her husband did the pitch instead. The whole thing was ridiculously squicky, and I’m furious in retrospect that my boss had the nerve to ask me to do this.

        The only allowance I can give her now is that while I was in my early twenties and very new to the work world when his happened, ironically, so was she. She was managing one location of a franchise owned by her parents, which explained basically everything.

        She had massive boundary issues as well. I wouldn’t quite use the word “toxic,” because she meant well and even years after leaving, she’s always been willing to be a reference and say kind things, but omg I’m so glad I’m out of there.

        (Also, I know I mentioned something to her once about that meeting, perhaps a year or so later, along the lines of asking how her husband was liking it, and she at least had the good grace to look embarrassed and mumble something before swiftly changing the subject.)

  17. Anon librarian*

    How long did it take you to get where you wanted to be professionally or find a fulfilling job? I’ve been working for 16 years and I’m still stuck in dead-end jobs. Don’t get me wrong- it pays rent and the bills, but I have yet to achieve my “dream job.” (Not sure it even exists at this point.)

    Any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated. (Note: I have librarian in my user name, but non-librarians out there please feel free to chime in.)

    1. Lady Jay*

      I’m not sure that the concept of “dream job” exists. In many ways, I’ve got a really good job, doing what I love, but there are some significant downsides to this spot which prompted me to move on. Now I’m starting a PhD (in my 30s) and though I’m excited about some aspects of it, I’m nervous about other aspects.

      A friend of mine once told me that it’s not necessary to love all of your job, all the time; if you can love, or just like, 60-80% of it, that’s fine. The other thing to remember is that people are blessed in many different ways. As I try to advance professionally, I have friends and family who are advancing personally (new husbands or babies, cool foreign move), and sometimes I envy that. I’ve found it helps to hold my longing and grief for one thing in balance with gratitude for a different thing that I do have.

    2. Bea*

      I honestly found my calling and love for my job very early on, which was at 22 years of age. However I’m very basic and accounting/business management is my jam, so it’s easy to find places I’ll fit in. I do have a quirky personality and do not jive with corporate sorts, so other than that I have fallen into places that are exactly where I want to be when I’m there.

      Part of it is going to mean you have to know what you want and what you are looking for, which is hard when you are puttering along paying bills. Some of that may mean taking up a second side job or volunteering somewhere to get more exposure and not just focusing on the daily grinds.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’ve been in the workforce about the same amount of time as you and I always said that I wanted a job where I made a difference in people’s lives, where I was doing something that made me feel good about myself.

      Recently, I’ve come to the realization that I can’t tolerate that kind of work anymore because people don’t want to help themselves and all it does is frustrate me when they are self-sabotaging. So my new job is basically being a paper pusher and I am looking forward to it. It may not have a direct impact on people’s lives, but it’s something that needs to be done.

    4. Lumen*

      Start meditating on the possibility that you will never hit a bliss point professionally, or feel totally (or even mostly) fulfilled by any job, and that ‘dream jobs’ are sort of like lizard people: I’m not going to super-judge anyone who believes they exist, but I’m also not going to let it affect how I vote, y’know?

      I once had a coworker who said that if you get to spend even 5-10% of your time doing things at work that you’re engaged in, inspired by, or care about, then you’re doing WAY better than the vast majority of people in the workforce. Remember that even hoping to feel engaged and fulfilled at work is a luxury in itself.

      If the jobs you can find aren’t giving you that sweet spot feeling, see if you can adjust them: come up with projects or initiatives to float to supervisors, but be willing to do the majority of the work yourself if you really want to get it done.

      This is not advice to ‘settle’, but maybe to adjust expectations. At the end of the day, we exchange our time and labor for capital, and that’s all a job is, and it’s pretty frustrating how MUCH of our time and labor we have to exchange for how LITTLE capital, so of course we look for non-monetary meaning and fulfillment.

      Taking that to the level of wanting ‘dream jobs’ seems like a mass cultural delusion (and probably a manipulation to get us to exchange ever more time and labor for ever less capital, because “we’re not doing it for the money”). But I digress.

      Find the things that you would enjoy doing even if no one paid you to do them, and try to bring that to work (when and how it’s appropriate to do so, of course).

    5. Jules the Third*

      I spent 10ish years doing a variety of stuff – retail mgmt, tech support, web development. I found my dream job in graduate school – supply chain. Bonus points for reverse logistics and recycling positions. I never even thought about manufacturing until then.

      Mr. Jules wanted to make games with the passion of a thousand suns. Until he realized the low pay / high hours of the regular companies. He still likes to make stuff, but more practical / security related. His satisfaction comes from the paycheck and free time for stuff he loves.

      Maybe go look at lists of jobs and see if anything really catches your interest, and then do some looking into the industry / jobs / training .

    6. DDJ*

      My job fulfills my financial requirements. That’s all I really expect it to do, to be honest. I work for the money. And I’m not embarrassed about that. I have a lot of interests and passions; I don’t need work to be one of them.

      Recently I met someone new, and we were talking about all the things we liked to do, and what we’re interested in. And I guess she thought I sounded like kind of a neat person? She asked “Ok, so someone like you…I have to know what you do for work. It must just be…I mean, I can’t even IMAGINE what someone like you would do for work!”

      “Well,” I said, “be prepared to be very disappointed.” And she was! Haha. But financial stability means I can pursue a lot of interests that I otherwise wouldn’t be able to. And that’s ok with me.

      I don’t hate my job, but it’s my job. It’s not really anything else to me. I do my job, they pay me. They pay me well and I’ve certainly moved through the ranks, but my identity isn’t really wrapped up in my profession. If I lost this job and could find something else I could do that was totally different, but would pay me the same, I wouldn’t feel like I needed to rediscover who I am or anything.

    7. Chaordic One*

      Gee, I’ve kind of given up on that. I have a liberal arts degree and worked in the arts for several years before I allowed that dream to die. (It was just too much poverty.) I also worked in retail for several years in bookstores. (That was fun.) My favorite job was a very decent paying turn as an administrative assistant at a state agency. But then a new administration was voted in and I (and a whole bunch of other state employees) found myself out of a job. I’m kind of at a point where I’m a bit preoccupied with making a decent wage and saving for retirement. I think I do a good job and do good work. OTOH, I don’t think I could ever be a commission salesperson because so often they seem to be selling things that people don’t really need or even want.

    8. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      I think that a fulfilling job or being where you want to be professionally changes so much over time that almost impossible to measure. And the idea of a dream job really doesn’t exist.

      I’ve been a lawyer for 23 years and have about 15-16 more years to go until I retire. I’ve been in both the public and private sectors, I’ve been a litigator, then an administrative law specialist, and finally a government attorney, and the only thing I haven’t done is work for Big Law (aka large private firms). I’ve wanted to be a lawyer since I was a kid, but the idea of practicing law no longer motivates me.

      My current job is at a career dead end. At my level, if I want to do something new for a different agency, I either have to take a pay cut of about $15-$20K if there isn’t a supervisor or manager spot or if there is such a spot, or a chief counsel position, I’m going up against is the best of the best … for one position that comes up once every 10-12 years … for just about the same salary as I get today. I just applied for one job that would be a promotion in duties but the pay increase would be $137 per month. Not a heck of a lot of motivation for that.

      Alison has some great posts on the idea of a dream job and a dream job is, in my mind, a fiction. My first job as a lawyer was exceptionally lean on pay and heavy on experience. My second was a great area of law with a terrible boss. My third was in that same area of law, and damn near perfect, until my coworker became my boss, and as a boss she was terrible because she thought I’d take her job. So she undermined me and made my life a living hell to the point where I left the office within 2 years. My current job was amazing for about 7 years. But for the last 6 years, it’s been a train wreck. I got a promotion, but then the agency head did a restructuring that ruined my position. I got a second promotion after that, but the closer the boss gets to retirement, the more the boss micromanages, avoids confrontation, and wants to avoid drama. And the heir apparent for the boss’s position is cut from the same cloth.

      So what may be a “dream job” today won’t be a “dream job” when there is a change in leadership, or a change in the industry, or a company restructuring.

      I used to think being a Hollywood actor making bank on movies was a dream job. Until you see actors getting passed over based on age, race, looks, etc. Then the directors who are serial harassers. And the studios who gave you a contract for a cut of the profits then cooked the books so that the movie didn’t technically make a profit. Then there is the inability to go to the grocery store without someone spotting you. The fake friends who want to hang with you for money. Everyone who wants to know you for access to the cash. Don’t get me wrong. If someone wants to pay me $20 million to star in a movie I’d do it. And then retire as soon as the check cleared and the movie was out.

    9. Jennifer*

      Me too. I have given up though. I don’t qualify for anything these days and I don’t know what the hell I’d do instead. I am totally at a loss and going to various counseling hasn’t really y’know, done anything.

    10. Loves Libraries*

      I had what I thought was my dream job as a school library media specialist. Then my school decided librarians cost too much and eliminated the positions. I’ve been trying to figure out my next act. Good luck.

    11. KX*

      I had a dream job, and then I was laid off in seven months. I got a different job right away, very, very close to what I was doing, but it wasn’t a dream. Then I had a baby. Then I volunteered for some things, and really really liked the skills I learned, and applied them to find a job that used them, and didn’t like the job because those things are not nearly so fun at that scale.

      I was very happy with the job I am in now, but it has drifted with company reorganization, and now it is a blech job although the people are very nice. So nice! I am looking for a new position, one that will even pay more. But I am looking at positions that involve tasks I am curious about learning to do or enthusiastic to do, and that do not involve things I have learned to dislike. Presumably, I will eventually find a position that satisfies my curiosity without also annoying me. I may end up with a longer list of annoyances to avoid at the search after that. Ultimately, I would like to find a job full of things that I am curious about with none of the annoying parts. With enough time, right, I can winnow the crap out? Would that be a dream job? + Curiosity – annoying?

      Maybe! But hopefully everyone is always nice.

    12. nep*

      All jobs have advantages and disadvantages. The classification ‘dream job’ is personal and subjective, of course. It’s just an idea.
      For me the most important determinant is even in the moment when the stuff is hitting the fan and things are crazy at work, deep down I feel I’m where I should be, I care about the overall mission, and generally I get fulfillment.
      Also, though, jobs that simply and only pay the bills are perfectly fine. Our job doesn’t have to be the be all and end all of our gratification and purpose in life.
      What do you feel is missing in your work life?

    13. A librarian who has a dream job*

      Dream job.
      I have never walked into or have been hired for a dream job.
      I have had jobs that I hated or had been miserably bored in. Those jobs informed my next choices for interviews etc.
      The last three jobs, public, school, and academic all had commonalities that I identified when I was deciding on the “next job”
      I like working with women. I like teaching. I am an independent worker. I despise group projects.
      What makes something a dream job. Colleagues with a sense of humor. Autonomy. Clean environment. Accessibility. Fair pay. Challenging projects. Little repetition. Other people to do the work that I find tedious. (filing, shelving, cataloguing)

    14. Education is my calling*

      I’ve mostly had education related jobs, but in college I always knew that my jobs wouldn’t be forever. After college I was an ESL teacher and I knew I wouldn’t want to do it forever, and decided to go back to graduate school so I could continue to work in education but outside of the classroom.

      My current employer was my first full-time job after graduate school and it was hard the first two years because it was such a steep learning curve and I had a manager that really stressed me out. My manager was let go about a year and a half ago and since then I’ve been promoted twice and looped into major projects witha potential for another promotion in the next year or two and I’m finally seeing this role as my career instead of a job. It’s really improved my confidence at work.

      I really like my job and of course there are hard days. But I feel like I’m doing something that I’m good at, people come to me to solve their problems and I can actually help and I see room for growth at my employer. This is the first time I felt that way. When I was teaching I loved my students but the managers were difficult and I knew there was no room to grow in the role so there was no reason to stay for more than a few years.

    15. leukothea*

      Amazingly, after just over 16 years of working at the same place, I managed to pivot into something I find much more meaningful and professionally rewarding. I don’t know if I would call it my “dream job,” but it actually uses my various talents, I love my team, I’m being paid well with good benefits and a pension plan in my future, and I’m making a positive difference in the world! I may still be in the honeymoon phase with this new job, but I’m seriously over the moon about it still.

      So I would say the answer is “17 years.” :)

    16. HyacinthB*

      Sorry I’m late to this party… but it took me a long long time to actually find that job that was “meant to be.” I have had some pretty great jobs over the years but only my current one was a perfect match (still not without the occasional issue, of course).
      Anyway, how long? About 30 years. Hang in there!

  18. Nervous Accountant*

    TAX SEASON IS OVER

    Tuesday 4/17, 715 PM, deadline day. A lot of accountants left, and/or were planning to leave. What happens? Mgrs/supervisors get pulled into a meeting and TAX SEASON EXTENDED TO WEDNESDAY.
    (i know a lot of us were worried about how our post-tax season party scheduled for Wednesday would fare lol).

    It’s like, taking a final exam and then finding out there’s another one. WHOOPS.

    A bit melodramatic? Yes. Anyway, that’s not even the craziest thing this week.

    Company took us out to a steakhouse for lunch as the post-tax season party and it was a nice time. A few of us broke off and went to other places afterwards or went home. So that was a nice time.

    I feel bad for saying it but I feel like this was my best tax season yet. I went through the worst worst worst thing in my life and yet managed to have a good work season? I’ve always put my all and worked hard in past seasons, but this one was of course different.

    Somehow, my boss (yes the one I’ve talked about) was the only one who understood what I meant immediately. (context is that if I said “it’s been rough” to anyone else, they’d say “oh yeah we’ve all had it tough this season” not knowing or realizing what I was referring to).

    So, it’s over. And back to “real” life which is more terrifying.

    3. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Makes sense to me. Working nonstop kept you from dwelling on your loss and now that you don’t have that it is scary. My husband went through the same thing when my FIL passed suddenly – went straight from the funeral to a week of 4am-9pm work plus some weekend hours. Delayed the grief a bit but gave him no room to think of it for a little while.

    4. Guitar Lady*

      Independent tax preparer here! Tax season extended one day? Great, I can file some late extensions and then go back to bed :)

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      YES THANK GOD

      It means an end to unlimited “please stay as long as you can” overtime (at least until October when the RMD notices start going out…) but oh, I can take time off again…

    6. DaniCalifornia*

      We found out Tuesday morning about the IRS e-file site being down and just released them all into that holding queue. First tax season that we walked out the door at 4:45pm, normally we are still scrambling as our clients call us all day long ‘I can’t make that payment’ or ‘Do you think you can do an extension for me?’ (at 3pm the day of and then they send us 200 pgs of documents!!!!)

      We did not come into work Wednesday, boss shut it down and we ignored all emails. Thankfully there weren’t any frantic ones. I think we’re finally starting to train our clients better.

  19. Single with nosy coworkers*

    How can I make my colleagues butt out of my private life?

    When I first started my current job it became really very quickly clear that people here are very….involved. Not that anyone is meeting in their free time, but that all colleagues basically know what’s going on in other’s lives. I’m rather private and don’t like talking about home life that much — I’m not embarrassed that most of my plans for the evening consist of getting home (late, long commute) and watching Netflix, but I don’t think I need to tell people that?

    I was so surprised when the interrogation started at lunch on one of my first days, and it’s not the usual type of smalltalk. It’s the point where everyone in our office knows my colleague’s wife we never met had a miscarriage. Anyway, I was so surprised I blurted out I had just broken up with my bf (never mind that we had split a year prior) and since then I get the “you should find someone to come home to”, “but aren’t you lonely”, “you can’t feel good being all alone”, “you just need to get out more and meet someone new” stuff and also a lot of “wait until you have children”, “but don’t you feel incomplete”, “children are the best”, etc etc. I’m a woman in my mid-30s and I. Don’t. Want. Kids. My ex didn’t want kids. I would feel sorry for the kids having me as their mum! I’ve said this multiple times, I’ve said it in various ways and it keeps going on.

    I honestly think I’m done with the relationship game, I feel pretty good on my own, and I can’t imagine myself married and with kids (actually, to me that sounds terrible), but I can’t seem to break this culture of oversharing and suggesting the One True Way Of Life. I love my manager, she’s awesome, but she’s the one who wants to know about everyone’s private life (though she is not part of the pressuring into relationship and kids thing, I should say).

    It’s exhausting. I don’t want to make up a relationship just for the sake of it, and anyway then the kids thing would start with even more force, but I’m so sick of it

    Any advice? Aside from not engaging, I tried that, it doesn’t work.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      “Don’t you feel incomplete?” – Nope, I’m content on my own.

      “Children are the best” – Especially when you can give them back to their parents.

      “You should find someone to come home to” – Why? I like going home and not having to deal with anyone but myself.

    2. Claire*

      Wow, are you me? No advice to offer except to commiserate. I struggle with this so much! Everyone is in everyone else’s business in my office and I just want to keep my private life private! It’s a struggle because I want to be able to be somewhat social with coworkers without it delving into overly personal territory. The idea of a 30+ single woman with no kids is just mind boggling to some people. Your coworkers sound especially nosy though, I’m sorry you have to deal with that!

    3. Maude Lebowski*

      I feel like Alison’s had questions like that and it’s sort of a process of shutting it down. Like very “lite” answers – “Oh, you know, I’m pretty pooped when I get home and am really into [name of show] on Netflix” and then, if probed, answering with basically the same info in other words. Or then perhaps asking that person about xyz if they’re prone (ugh – a whole office of this?!) to talking about their stuff (and assuming you want to come across as an active participant in _listening_ to that stuff, whatever stuff is).

      1. Irene Adler*

        Yes “lite” answers.
        Might even take it to another level with the “thanks for your concern” responses and omit any and all personal info where ever you can.
        Then change the subject “And how is your son’s fastball coming along these days?” “Is your Auntie Maud really going to take that ’round the world cruise she’s been talking about?” “About that work project we have that’s due on Tuesday…”

        Then add in a “tell me more” comment to urge them along.
        There should be no need for making up things or sharing any more than you want others to know.

    4. ExcelJedi*

      OMG, I commend you for not snapping by now. I’m in my 30’s, married, but DO NOT want or like children. Whenever my colleagues have brought it up, I’ve been really candid about it (such as, “No, actually I don’t want kids” or, if pressed, “I don’t really like kids.”) I’m of the opinion that if I alienate anyone because of that, they’re absolutely ridiculous.

      At first it was kind of scary because I thought I’d somehow insult someone, but I’ve yet to meet anyone who responds to that kind of candor at work with nastiness. It might be sampling error, but it definitely worked better for me than beating around the bush.

      1. Ali G*

        I agree. I’m pretty blunt: “We’re not having kids.”
        I don’t actively bring it up in work settings, but eventually someone brings it up or makes a comment about kids. If it’s just general “wait until you have kids one day” I just laugh it off, but if it’s a pointed comment like the OP is getting, then you have to take it head on.

        1. Single with nosy coworkers*

          Exactly, eventually someone brings it up. I don’t actively talk about it, because of course it’s a non-topic.

          I did the blunter approach in previous jobs (but I wasn’t 30 then *gasp*) and it was hit or miss and often a question of cultural background. And I’m still candid about it! They keep bringing it up!

          But I will try the approach other people brought up below, about investing in making myself interesting in other ways. I just don’t really like to talk enthusiastically about….stuff. At the moment I’m too exhausted to be enthusiastic and things I am/have been enthusiastic about in the past would probably make me be labelled weird.

      2. nep*

        ‘I’m of the opinion that if I alienate anyone because of that, they’re absolutely ridiculous.’
        Yup. They don’t even have to be ridiculous…Their issue is simply not my problem.

    5. Aaaaaaanon.*

      I feel ya; I left a job in part because my boss was intrusive about my personal life and started bringing up my lack of a strong family/social life in professional criticisms. I also had the late/long commute issue after my breakup and the resulting lack of stuff to do in the evenings.

      The way I’ve found that cuts this off at the pass is by being pretty firm about investing your time in something else, like your career. Whenever this sort of thing comes up, I’m pretty quick to say that between working full-time, doing grad school part-time, and trying to establish a social life in a new city, I really don’t have a lot of time to add other things to my life.

      People sympathize with this usually, but some of the “have it all” types push back. As I’ve gotten closer with them one of the things we’ve talked about is that they all met their spouses and had some of their children before their professional responsibilities ramped up. If someone still doesn’t get it, I’m just pretty clear that people don’t want to date busy women in their 30s. Full stop. If they still don’t get it, I go the pity/overshare route and tell them that I’ll never be able to afford children because my financially irresponsible parents’ elder care will probably drain my life savings in the next 10 years.

      I don’t say anything about not wanting kids, though. Because people can be really put off by the childfree thing, I find it’s easier to frame my not having kids as a consequence of the messy logistics of my life.

      You totally don’t have to make up a relationship to get people off your back, but I wonder if they’re reacting more to you not seeming terribly satisfied with what’s going on in your personal life. I’ve got colleagues who are loud and proud about their Netflix adventures and people just go with it.

      1. ExcelJedi*

        “I don’t say anything about not wanting kids, though. Because people can be really put off by the childfree thing, I find it’s easier to frame my not having kids as a consequence of the messy logistics of my life.”

        How have you encountered this IRL?

        I’ve definitely seen blow-back online, but like I said above, I’ve never had someone react badly to me saying I don’t want kids. (In the northeast US, generally working in academia lately, so there’s some context.)

        1. Aaaaaaanon.*

          I also work in academia too (in Canada), but the vast majority of my colleagues are either working married parents or married 30-somethings planning to have kids. When I had a partner, this never happened, but once I became single in my late 20s my colleagues started asking when I’d get back out there. When they began to realize that I wasn’t actively trying to find a partner and co-parent then their questions about my wanting to start a family became more pointed, because time’s running out. I don’t get this pushback from women my own age, it’s almost always people in their 40s and up who had kids by the time they were my age. It’s always responses like:

          -“But you can’t fill your life with just work”
          -“Doesn’t family matter to you?”
          -“But don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?”
          -“Why not become a single parent?”
          – the best one, that my mom’s been telling me since my teens: “no good man would marry a woman who doesn’t want kids” (spoiler: no one married her)

          The people who try hardest to convince me are guys whose wives are working moms – if they can do it, why can’t I? They mean well, they just don’t understand why my life is the way it is.

          The reality is that professionally, not being a parent opens up some tricky optics because…let’s be honest, I have more free time to invest in my career development than the parents do, and it’s reflected in my being a bit young for my position. There’s nothing tying me to my geographic location so I could be a flight risk. I’m pretty sure that some of the subtext here is that some of these people might be worried about having someone with fewer work/life balance constraints potentially set the performance standard in their department. I’ve heard some of my colleagues concerned about being managed by non-parents over fears of them not being sympathetic to their needs for flexibility.

          1. ExcelJedi*

            Thanks for sharing! I totally feel for you!

            I’m in my early 30’s and only married a year now, so I’m starting to brace myself for these kinds of responses. I didn’t think about the flight risk or other subtexts that might come up, and I’ll have to keep an eye out for that.

            1. Aaaaaaanon.*

              IME, the married-without-children crowd gets a bit of pushback, but not really. By virtue of making a commitment like marriage, people will assume you’re An Actual Adult. What you may run into more, though, is having people assume that you’re going to go on mat leave at any second.

          2. nep*

            Seriously, acquaintances/colleagues have asked you those questions?
            None of those deserves an answer. In my view none of those has its place in the work context. Perhaps close friends or close relatives talking about their life choices…But between colleagues? Asinine and just rude.

          3. Super B*

            I’m shocked for the amount of people telling you these things! Your mom, sure, a nosy co-worker who is struggling as a working parent and wants company in her misery, maybe, a old friend who is seriously concerned about your choices, ok… but all these different people you mention, in several occasion?! That is so super annoying… I’m in California in my late 30s, I am a mom of 2, but my girlfriends my age and in their early 40s are pretty much divided equally, half are moms and the other half child-free, by choice or by forces of nature. Maybe you should considering moving to a more progressive place if that is an option?

      2. Single with nosy coworkers*

        You make some excellent suggestions, some of which I will try to employ! Thanks!

        To your last paragraph though, I don’t think that’s it. My friends, who are mostly married and some of them have kids, are very accepting of my single ways and have never thought to even change that. At work I think it’s the fact that every single person in my department is married/in a relationship/has kids (there’s one single mom and one divorced-and-remarried person) except for me and the assistant. But the assistant is 21 and “has time”. I’m over 30 and obviously this cannot be because Happiness Is A Family and deviating from the True Way Of Life is inconceivable.

        I assume it will stop when I hit 40 in a few years. Maybe?

        1. Aaaaaaanon.*

          Thanks!

          To your point, though, you might be right, but people who only know the shiny, most well-adjusted and office-appropriate version of you are going to have trouble understanding that you’re done with dating, much less believing you could become a parent. Most of my friends who’ve known me long enough know my story well enough to respect what I’m doing with my life. They know the damage that my last relationship did to nearly every facet of my life and they understand that why I wouldn’t want to risk having another relationship destabilize my life again.

          My colleagues, on the other hand, are mostly only familiar with positive and professional and put-together Aaaaaaanon who seems like she could find someone and have a proper middle-class Happily Ever After if she would just download Tinder for once OMG. I try to take it as a compliment?

    6. Hope*

      I wish I could say it gets better, but…the cult of the One True Way is pretty loud, especially when they find someone who isn’t part of it.

      My go-to has always been “and this is why I have pets.” If you have a pet, sometimes you can successfully shift the focus that would otherwise go to kids to your pets. It’s definitely not guaranteed, but it worked with my mother and some of my coworkers.

      2. nep*

        What does that mean, concretely — ‘the cult of the One True Way is really loud’ ?
        No snark — I’m really interested to hear how exactly that makes itself known and heard and how it affects people.

    7. Former Retail Manager*

      I think there are two distinct issues here:
      1) them wanting you to share things about yourself — Not really an issue in my opinion if you can keep the info bland and PG

      2) their reaction to the information you do share — That is where I see an issue & that is where I’d focus my efforts.

      Other commenters have some great responses. If these people are the type to take the info and really run with it into inappropriate response territory, then pulling back a bit may be warranted. Find a reason to “run errands” on your lunch instead of eating with them, wear headphones frequently, or tell them that you really want to get X done if they stop to chat. In your case, you may have to become a bit more removed from this group if they don’t curb their responses.

      FWIW, I don’t see the chit chat itself and their desire to get to know you an inherently bad thing. The folks in my area spend tons of time talking about what’s for dinner, pets, TV/Netflix shows one or more of us are watching, weekend events like the arts festival or events at the botanic gardens, and traffic in the area. All pretty boring stuff in the grand scheme and nothing boundary crossing. It’s a nice way to build a friendly rapport with your co-workers and learn very non-controversial stuff about them, like that they like Boston Terriers but not Jack Russell’s.

      1. dr_silverware*

        This is a great comment. I agree that 2 is the bigger problem, and I think your suggestions are a clear-eyed response to the real problem.

      2. Aaaaaaanon.*

        I think the issue is at the intersection of 1 and 2. You need to be okay with letting your colleagues get to know you if you want to fit in professionally. When you don’t have a spouse or kids to talk about, you need to work a little bit harder to find water cooler talk that showcases your life. If you don’t do that, you risk inviting more questions about the absence of certain things in your life rather than the presence of what’s actually there.

        Honestly, a big motivator for me to invest in some of my hobbies is that they give me a personality at work. My hobbies are a professional investment because they give me positive ways to get people to know me that deflect from stuff that isn’t as easy to connect over. I can do the boring stuff just fine, but without the hubby/kids talk I found I needed an extra “edge” to make people see me as whole person. I’m more likable because people know they can ask me about how my 10k last weekend went, rather than just banter with me about the weather. I had it a lot worse before I filled my life with stuff I was happy to talk about at work.

        1. Single with nosy coworkers*

          I thin you might be right once more.

          The thing is, stuff I’m not a very enthusiastic person. Or actually that’s wrong, I’m not at work necessarily, also because the things I’m enthusiastic about privately (niche sport, well-known fantasy book series) labe me as, simply put, odd. Nerdy. I see how people look at me when I talk about it, and they’re not good looks.

          But you’re correct in that I need to find something work-appropriate that I can round myself with. Once I move (that’s the plan, soon) I can maybe take up cooking and baking again. (This is an office where baked things are not expected but definitely appreciated.) It’s a good idea! I want to give this a shot and I really appreciate all of your input.

          1. Aaaaaaanon.*

            I’m sorry to hear that you don’t feel comfortable sharing hobbies you care about. As much as it pains me to say this, it’s almost as though it’s only acceptable to be open about “nerdy” hobbies at work when you also have a slate of pedestrian ones to balance things out.

            I know Alison cautions women on the baked goods at work thing, but for women who aren’t otherwise associated with maternal/wifely femininity, I don’t think it’ll necessarily hurt you at all to be your office’s Muffin Lady. Good luck on your move!

          2. Not So NewReader*

            You sound like a cool person to me. FWIW. Time is probably on your side here. But that does not help you right now. Work friends are not instant and sadly it can be really hard to find work friends. If you can redirect the conversation back to their interests or concerns, that might give you some relief here and there.

    8. Seriously?*

      I think there are two ways to deal with this. You can respond with non-commital answers that share as little as possible and refuse to say more (e.g. “What are your plans tonight?” “Nothing special.”) or you can redirect back to the person asking. In my experience, people who pry love to talk about themselves and can’t understand why other people don’t. So comments like “kids are the best” can be met by questions about their kids without going into your lack of a desire to have them. That one is more time intensive so only you can gauge whether you want to hear that much about their lives.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I would not get too worried about having no plans at night. A great many people go home and collapse in their recliners at the end of the day. They aren’t doing anything at night either.

    9. BuffaLove*

      This is hard. I feel like your best bet is to give light answers and try not to let them get to you, and hope for a culture change once there’s some turnover. To give you hope, I definitely work somewhere where everyone gets waaaay too involved in each others’ personal lives (we’re a faaaaamilyyy!), but the One True Way stuff started to fade once the lifers started to retire and be replaced by new people with more diverse lifestyles/hobbies/etc. I haven’t gotten flack for not being engaged to my boyfriend yet in months! Months!

    10. anon24*

      Do you have a pet? Even a fish? I do not want kids and neither does my spouse. We are just not parent material and we’re lucky enough to know that. When people get in my face about having kids I go full crazy cat lady on them and go on and on and on and on and on about my cats until they are desperately trying to extricate themselves from the conversation or change the subject. Evil? Yes, but they never bring up children again ;)

      2. Knotty Ferret*

        I have a ferret, so the response is something like, “no! I have a ferret, which is better than a kid. If you lock a kid in a cage, you’re a bad parent. But if I put my ferret in the cage while I’m not home, I’m just being responsible!”

    11. mediumofballpoint*

      I’d be inclined to give half-snarky answers from pop culture. “Why yes, I did have a date with a fantastic guy named Daniel. He used to do karate when he was younger, but now he owns a car dealership” or “I was supposed to have a date with this super cute girl named Eleanor, but there were some complications involving a bottle of margarita mix and a column of shopping carts, so she had to cancel.” Definitely not the most professional response, but ugh, I hate busybodies who bother happy singletons or folks without kids.

      1. Single with nosy coworkers*

        No, honestly, snark is the last thing I can do in my office. There’s none of that faaaaaamily bs that’s going around, but if I get snarky on a regular basis (everyone has bad days, but those are supposed to be off days) my boss will have my hide and it will reflect in my performance review. I’m sure there’s offices where that might fly, mine is not one of those. Plus, I don’t like being snarky with people, it puts me in a bad mood and I don’t like my work when I’m in a bad mood.

    12. hbc*

      I prefer to cheerily accept whatever worst-case scenario they imagine. “Yep, kids are the best, I will probably die alone with my 17 cats eating my face and wishing I’d tried harder to grab a man.” “Yes, I am incomplete, and I cry myself to sleep every night.”

      You might also get success out of showing them how often they’re doing it. I wouldn’t be above actually keeping a chart. Or say, “Ooh, looks like we made it to 9:30 Wednesday before I got told to have some babies. A new record!” Sometimes people are okay with being seen as pushy, but not boring.

      1. lulu*

        I like both of those options! (but it sucks that you have to face that kind of pressure at work)

      2. Aaaaaaanon.*

        As much as I like these zings, I’d really be careful with sarcasm or snark at work, even in response to people who don’t respect your boundaries. It’s particularly risk as a woman with minority life choices. Their transgressions are the standard ones, so you’re the one who’ll really risk looking like a … you-know-what if you respond that way.

        1. Single with nosy coworkers*

          I agree and see above, snark is not an option. It would eventually reflect in my performance review, because my job is cross-functional (as is that of everyone in my department) and my manager will assume that if I’m snarky with my coworkers I’m also snarky with colleagues from other departments. Plus, I don’t like my work very much when I put myself in a bad mood by being snarky, that would only hurt me.

    13. Shiara*

      A friend of mine has had some success with her nosy workplace by taking something that’s an occasional hobby for her, and making that her “thing” that she’s known for at work. Let’s say it was knitting. From the way she talks to her coworkers about it, you would think she spends all her spare time knitting, or researching patterns, or visiting yarn sales, or whatever. And coworkers will send her articles and patterns and she’ll thank them and talk to them about them. But she’s not really that avid a knitter, it’s just turned into a way she could channel her coworkers enthusiasm to a topic of conversation that was tolerable/moderately interesting.

      So maybe there’s some interest or hobby or show you can aggressively be interested in around your coworkers, even if it’s not something you’d normally be that passionate about, so that they can ask about it and feel like they’ve checked off the engaged with Single’s life interests positively box and then you can ask about their kids and then everyone can go back to work.

      1. Single with nosy coworkers*

        It’s a very good idea! I just need some more office appropriate stuff to be excited about!

        (I’m really enthusiastic about a niche sport and a certain fantasy book series, and the looks I get when I do talk about it are….not very kind. They’re mostly the what kind of weirdo is she to know all of those things, how unimportant, she needs to grow up. (If she had a bf or a child she would not talk such nonsense, etc etc) *shrug*)

        2. Not So NewReader*

          You can talk about your car or your train ride to work. Once in a while you can talk about something on the news, like the woman pilot that landed that plane. Everyone can agree she did a great job. So news that is agreeable to most, is probably a good choice. There’s weather to talk about, like if you have to shovel or mow, that can work into a little bit of conversation. People love to talk about themselves, ask them about their stuff they do You may find that one or two of them have interests that are tangent to yours.

    14. Snickerdoodle*

      Ohhhh, this sounds like something AAM and Captain Awkward have both addressed repeatedly. I tell people I like to keep my work and personal life separate, I don’t give people information to work with, and (if necessary) I straight up point out that it’s really weird that they keep bringing it up. That works for all kinds of behavior if you keep it up. Don’t crack. E.g. “Well, like I said, I prefer not to discuss my personal life at work. Now, can you tell me about [work-related thing]?” Repeat as necessary, and master a poker face and glorious silence when they try to keep pressuring you into divulging details you don’t want to. Go ahead and let them look offended or tease you; they’ll eventually give up.

    15. mrs_helm*

      Office chat is very much “let’s give them something to tall about”. Thats why sports are such a popular topic – always new, rarely personal or offensive.

      You need to rebrand, so they’ll ask you things you want to talk about. Would you actually love to talk about your Netflix binge? Then make an enthusiastic point of how you’re LOVING being able to rewatch all the Friends episodes (or whatever). Hopefully next time they ask what you’re watching now. Or pick a hobby, sports team, pet, or other less charged topic. Put photos or logo items foe that thing around your cube. The key is that they identify you with new topic.

    16. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      This is probably not good advice, but I’ve found that after I drop the “well, actually, I’m a lesbian” bomb, no one seems to feel nearly so urgent about my love life anymore.

    17. Zennish*

      My response about the kids thing was always “No, we don’t have any…we just have to blow our extra income on expensive vacations and booze, instead.” It was vanishingly rare that it was ever mentioned again by the same person.

    18. Simple Mom*

      Only advice I could give is to keep responses simple. “Nope” and walk away. Wish I had something better to give.

      BUT, as a woman in my early 30s and a mother, I still appreciate and respect the women who know they do not want children. There is nothing wrong with that and I wish more people would realize it. Best of luck!

    19. PixelPixie*

      Had to share this – I had one of those “no I’m not planning on ever having kids, actually” and “no I have not for one moment in my entire life wanted kids, so I really am not going to change my mind on this” conversations with a coworker a couple of hours ago. A moment ago, literally while I was reading your post, said coworker ignored my (over-sized, impossible to miss) headphones and inserted a picture of her child between my eyes and my computer screen, saying “See? Sometimes you get lucky and they’re cute.”

      After looking at the picture I can say with confidence that yes, that is a human child.

      I’ve never found a way to shut this stuff down short of having a deep, philosophical discussion about the enormous burden having kids is even for women who actually want them (with friend-of-a-friend examples) and how heartbreaking it would be for everyone involved if a woman who didn’t want kids took on that responsibility. It’s an exhausting conversation, and I 100% understand and support you if you don’t want to engage to that degree. Seriously, you have all of my sympathies.

  20. Esme*

    I’m considering taking a job through a recruiting agency, it’s a defined term contract. I’m happy with my portion of the pay, and I’m fine with knowing they are getting the margin. However, I was surprised the recruiting agency’s terms say that if I take a job later directly with the client company *I* owe them a hefty finder’s fee (in a time limit). I’ve only ever heard of the client company having to pay a conversion fee. Has anyone else seen this before?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Nope, that’s a huge red flag. The client should be the one paying the fee, not you.

      2. Esme*

        How would you push back on it? I would be thrilled with the contract at this point but the fee would be enough that I couldn’t afford to accept an offer later. I’m planning to ask if they also charge a fee to the employer, as that makes it even less likely I could negotiate the employer to cover *my* fee.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          It’s pretty unethical behavior in the field, so I would question them.

          “My understanding is that recruiters are typically paid fees by the companies where they are placing individuals, not the workers themselves. Can you tell me a little more about that?”

          1. JHunz*

            And if you have contact information for anyone at the client company, you can ask them the same question. It’s possible they don’t know this is the arrangement and are wondering why they’re having trouble filling the position, and it’s also possible the recruiter is trying to double-dip from both the company and candidates.

        2. Natalie*

          Just say no? You could explain to them it’s very unusual, but your biggest leverage here is refusing to sign the contract with that term in it.

        3. Eye of Sauron*

          That’s the beauty of contracts, they are negotiable. Tell them you are good with all of the terms but you are not comfortable with that one and ask them to remove the clause. If they refuse then you’ll have to figure out if that’s a deal breaker (it sounds like it is) and it could mean that the position (and that recruiting agency isn’t for you).

          This sounds really *ahem* shady. If I’m understanding you, the fee would only come in to play after your contract ends? Or are we talking about within the contract time frame? If it’s after then I’d say no way. If it’s during then I’d be side eyeing both the recruiter and the hiring company.

    2. Esme*

      Thanks all, I will be negotiating this out. Thanks for the confirmation and giving me confidence.

  21. Lois Lane*

    I have a coworker who is habitually late, takes long lunches and leaves early every day. This has been going on for two years. Coworker works, on average, 6-7-hour days whereas the rest of our team works standard 8-hour days. Coworker and I have the same position, but their work does not affect mine, so I’ve always taken the position that if their absenteeism was a problem, our boss would address it with them. However, Bossman SEES that Coworker is habitually late/leaves early and simply does not care (we’re not really held to high production standards, but that’s another issue altogether). He also allows Coworker to “work from home” whenever Coworker has the slightest drama in their life even when it’s obvious that they are not really working on actual work stuff at home.

    My question for everyone here is: Given that Bossman clearly doesn’t care, would you follow suit and also work shorter hours or would you continue working your normal 40-hour week? I’ve been working my normal schedule, but Coworker’s tardiness has been especially egregious lately and it’s starting to really take a toll on my morale. I’m asking myself why I should bother knocking myself out when Coworker and I have the same job and are paid the same amount, but Coworker gets to work a significantly shorter week. If Bossman doesn’t care, should I? Would you? Darn pesky work ethic…

    1. Lil Fidget*

      You should definitely ask for more time working from home, if that’s something you’d like! It sounds like that would go over well. I’d only pushback if the boss indicates they can’t offer that perk to you because they need you to cover for Cersei being out of the office so much. Until then, yes I’d try to keep my eyes on my own paper and ask for the things I want, although I sympathize that its hard on morale to feel that other people aren’t pulling their own weight.

      1. Lala*

        I have a similar coworker situation going on, and this is the route I’ve chosen. Get yourself some work from home time if that will make you feel better/make your work life easier.

        Even though it can be annoying when a coworker takes advantage of it, it can be a good thing to have a boss who isn’t laser-focused on butt-in-seat time, because usually they’re a lot more flexible when you do need it (you never know when a family emergency will crop up).

    2. Colette*

      Let’s say that five years down the road, you’re working in a great job somewhere else. Coworker contacts you and asks you to refer them to the open position on your team. Do you?

      You don’t, right? Reputation matters.

    3. Luna*

      Is your coworker still getting all her work done? or is she often late on deadlines or slow to respond to requests? It might be that the boss doesn’t care because she is a fast worker and can get everything done in less time. I wouldn’t worry so much about the precise amount of time she spends at her desk as long as her work is done. If her work isn’t getting done then that’s another issue.

      1. Lois Lane*

        So, that’s kind of a hard question to answer. We all do similar work, but our projects aren’t all the same, so you can’t measure our team’s output against each other on a quantitative basis. I would say Coworker is a low performer compared to the rest of our team, but we don’t really have deadlines for our projects or production standards for how often we should be completing projects (which might sound awesome, but I actually dislike it because I prefer a faster-paced environment). Our projects are self-managed and often open-ended because we are dependent on people in other departments to sign off on certain things before we can wrap them up. Because of that, it’s very easy to BS to our boss on how long it takes to finish them and he just kind of blindly trusts that we’re all professionals doing our job. I’ve put aside my annoyance at her absenteeism the past two years by telling myself that she makes the rest of us look better, but it’s pretty clear that my boss either buy her BS excuses for why her projects take so long or just doesn’t care.

        Although we are exempt, we work for essentially a non-profit and I’ve always viewed Coworker’s absenteeism as a kind of wage theft , which has always bothered me personally. Even so, I’ve always thought that it was an issue for my boss to handle, if he thought it to be a problem. But it’s been two years and apparently, it’s not a problem for him. It’s just super frustrating to be working 40 hours a week while Coworker skates by working 35 hours (or less) a week. If our boss is OK with those standards, then I feel they should apply to the whole team. But how do I address that with him without also feeling like I’m tattling on my coworker for her absenteeism?

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Ooh, I think you’ve reached BEC with Cersei. I’d be a little careful here. Focus on things that *affect your workload* and are meaningful, and I still think it’s best to ask for what you want and deserve (a raise? a promotion?) but it’s hard to know what anybody else is up to and, as you know, it’s not really your business to compare Cersei to you and find her lacking. She could be on interim FLMA or have a prior agreement with the boss or a much lower salary for this flexibility or she could be logging in at night to keep working or any of a hundred other scenarios.

          1. GG Two shoes*

            This is VERY true. When I was ill, plenty of people knew (it was easy to tell) but after my hospital stay for a few weeks afterwards I looked and felt better but I was on a altered schedule for a bit because of side affects. I told my immediate co-workers and boss but I was concerned that other folks might be thinking I’m skipping out early or taking too much time off. I asked my boss how to combat that perception. His advice?

            ‘No one really knows what arrangements other employees have with their bosses. There might be a issue you know nothing about. They don’t know everything about the situation and they don’t need to. No one should be worried about your working arrangements. If it works for us, that’s all that matters.”

          2. Lois Lane*

            No, this is not one of those situations. I know with 100 percent certainty that none of those conditions apply. This is absolutely a case where she is simply chronically late/leaves early. I understand that situations exist like this and have counseled others with similar advice such as what you have given, but this absolutely does not apply in this situation.

            1. Louise*

              But… how can you know that with absolute certainty? Like, maybe she has a chronic illness that flares up and so bossman gives flexibility. You wouldn’t necessarily know that as a peer.

            2. Runner*

              I worked with a woman who came in between 30- 60 minutes late, left 30 minuted early, and started eating immediately upon arrival, having literally three full meals at her desk and snacks the whole day. She had some weeks nearly an entire day off per week just with her lateness and early leaving. Her main focus at work was following various fad diets, especially during her time here religiously eating six small meals a day. She quit. I have no idea what to recommend. It’s astonishing employers let this go on (yes, it affected morale here — she got almost an additional full week off a month, that’s serious time off just by lateness).

        2. Luna*

          So you’re right that it is definitely something for your boss to handle. Unfortunately there’s not much you can do, other than ask for increased flexibility for yourself if that’s what you want- but any request needs to be framed as why YOU need it/earned it, not “Sansa gets to do this so why can’t I?”.

          It is tricky in those types of jobs that don’t have clear measurements to know what’s really going on. Your coworker might be a huge slacker, or she might be a fast-worker, or could have some sort of personal or health issues.

          My CurrentJob is similar, and I’m often the one coming in a bit late and taking longer breaks (though this is not unusual for my group, so I’m not the only one, it’s pretty laid back). But the reason I do this is because our work is SO SLOW and there is never enough to do, and having to sit in front of a computer for 8 hours with no real work is brutal (bonus: it does allow for lots of time to comment on AAM!:)

          1. Lois Lane*

            “but any request needs to be framed as why YOU need it/earned it, not “Sansa gets to do this so why can’t I?”. ”

            Right, and that’s the tricky part. Coworker just does it and our boss looks the other way. But I think if anyone officially asked for the same perk, the answer would be no. Sigh.

        3. Green Goose*

          I come from an office that has uncertain rules about flex hours and WFH, it really depends on the manager and individual. I feel your pain because I used to be able to WFH before my team was merged with our National office and now I have to be at the office Mon-Fri at 9am. But I see other people WFH or coming in late. It used to bother me but when I came back from a business trip one of my coworkers that I don’t work with made a comment about me “being out a lot” in a “wouldn’t that be nice” way and it really irritated me and concerned me that people were monitoring my work hours.

          I think it’s best to not worry about your coworker, and just figure out what you would like in your own role. Would you like to WFH or have more flex hours? It’s clearly okay with your boss so why not just ask for it if you’d like it. I previously enjoyed working from home in the mornings to wait off traffic and then coming into the office at 10, it changed a 1 hour drive to 17 minutes.

    4. The Person from the Resume*

      This all depends…

      If you have the sort of job where your work is done and you’re killing time then I think that you can leave early / take a longer lunch no guilt. And also if you want to work from home do work from home and enjoy extra personal time brought about by skipping the dressing for work and commute.

      If your job is about butt in seat or you need the full 8 hours to complete your assignments then I recommend that you don’t copy your coworker. You view his actions as negative so don’t start doing them.

    5. Bea*

      Do not lower your standards because others do not have the high ones! That I learned long ago.

      Now if you feel like checking out, you don’t feel like giving it your all, then that’s a different story. You are working for you and your ethics here not this slacker! The boss may not care if Coworker does it but maybe it’s because Coworker has drunken nudes of the boss so the boss can’t say anything. Who knows how the boss would react if you join suit!

      1. Starbuck*

        Yikes! If OP doesn’t have 40 hours of work each week and boss is clearly ok with some schedule flexibility, why not take advantage of it? Hey boss, I’m going to be in an hour late for an appointment this morning, hey boss, I’m going to be out a bit longer over lunch to get some errands done, etc. Use as *needed* and there’s no reason to feel guilty or judgmental. Doesn’t sound like there’s any gold stars given out for perfect attendance.

      2. Lois Lane*

        This has been my ethos the past two years, but Coworker has had some drama lately’s brought her absenteeism (she also calls off sick a lot, too) to a whole new level of ridiculousness for her that I feel like my head will explode. To even go into vague details would be too revealing, but it’s so absurdly ridiculous that it’s brought what used to be minor annoyances with her chronic lateness/leaving early to a boiling point with me. Her drama issue is the kind of thing that most people deal with, maybe take one day of work off for and then go on with their lives. Coworker? Oh, no… it was a neverending SAGA. I had a pretty significant medical crisis this past year that I’ve had to take FMLA for on several occasions and she’s taken more time off for this drama than I’ve taken off for all my medical leaves combined (16 days). And then on top of that, she continues to come in late and leave early. So, yeah, I’m pretty much fed up with it.

        1. The OG Anonsie*

          You gotta reframe this. Why are you fed up with it? What, exactly, are you putting up with that’s causing you to be nagged with negative emotions? This evidently doesn’t actually impact you at all, and when you need flexibility you’re also able to get it, so all you’re doing by bookkeeping this Coworker’s way of handling stuff is making yourself angry when you don’t need to be. You will do yourself a great favor by letting go of this one to blow away in the wind with all the other annoying stuff you deal with when you have to work around other people.

          Because yeah, sometimes your coworkers are annoying for reasons that aren’t super rational. But you gotta acknowledge that: being aggravated by the way someone else handles their life probs is a You issue, not a Coworker issue. They’re not doing something objectively wrong, just something that bothers you personally.

          And like, trust me, I get that– I worked with someone whose life appeared to be a never-ending saga of mild inconveniences she blew into constant crisis and she made steam come out of my ears sometimes. But that was my problem, she wasn’t doing anything wrong and her periodic comments about it were basically the only way it ever crossed into my world anyway. She was just doing things in a way that was counter to my personality and preferences about how you should do things, which is my problem to solve in myself. Did it cut into her productivity? Yeah maybe. I feel like it probably did, but it wasn’t my orchestra to conduct. For all I know she carefully carved out time to have her crises around her other work. Our boss was happy with her, and on the rare occasions our work overlapped it was fine. So no matter how annoying I found her personality, it really wasn’t a problem unless I let it be my problem.

    6. BuffaLove*

      I have a coworker like that too, and it makes me ragey, especially since she barely does any work even when she does decide to put in a full day.

      I know it’s hard not to develop a chip on your shoulder, but definitely don’t lower yourself to your coworker’s level. For all you know, Bossman does care and is either not good at giving criticism, or is tracking their hours and is planning to bring it up in the future.

      1. Windchime*

        I have a coworker like this, too. He’s on a different team but he sits near me. I just decided that there is someone who plays this role at every workplace, and my job while I am at work is to keep my eyes on my own paper and let his boss worry about how much he is or isn’t working. I’m a lot happier now that I have decided that the only person’s business I should be minding is my own. It was a tough shift to make, because–he’s getting away with it! He’s getting PAID to stand around and yak!

        But that’s not my business.

    7. The New Wanderer*

      You could be describing me from my previous job. I worked 7 hour days at the office, routinely came in after most people and left earlier than the other late start people, and worked from home more often than others. I know what it must have looked like to anyone who monitored me.

      However, I had arranged for a part time exception (salaried but paid for the specific hours I logged, so effectively I took a pay cut) and manager approval for the flexible hours and telecommuting (on which days I clocked 9-10 hours because no commute), and I completed a full time workload. I also talked to my managers routinely about whether they had any issues with my schedule (or heard negative feedback from others), and I was pretty open with my colleagues about my schedule differences so they wouldn’t think I was just skating by.

      If you know for a fact that the coworker just isn’t working like they need to be to hold up their end, that sucks whether or not they’re at their desk 40 hrs/week. But it will be career limiting to them at some point.

    8. NicoleK*

      I too have a coworker who is habitually late, disappears for periods of time, socializes too much, and is very slow at her job. The difference is she passes her work to me. I have no idea if Boss is aware, but I doubt it makes a difference. Boss enables coworker and totally props her up.

      1. Lois Lane*

        Coworker doesn’t pass her work on to me, but I strongly suspect she does her side gig work while on company time, which is a huge no-no, given that we have state jobs and it’s illegal to do so. Yeah, she’s not exactly employee-of-the-month material.

    9. Emily Kimberly*

      I’ve been in the same boat Lois. Co-worker would come and go as they pleased, would leave early and the boss wouldn’t say a word. It wasn’t my place to correct, but was irritating nonetheless. Cut to a year later I was promoted to management and began to attend employee review meetings. Although nothing was said to my co-worker about their behavior directly, it had been noticed by management and she was overlooked for several promotions because of it. Even if the boss doesn’t say anything, that doesn’t mean they don’t notice. Don’t let your co-worker’s poor work ethic influence your behavior.

    10. The OG Anonsie*

      I mean, I could see this affecting your morale if you had asked for more flexibility and been denied, but like… Why does this bother you otherwise? I genuinely don’t get it. You say he “gets” to work a shorter week, but clearly either 1) he has an arrangement with management that you’re not privy to or 2) you could also be doing this and no one would care. Either way, this isn’t some privilege he’s getting unfairly– there’s no reason to be miffed about it.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I have had this conversation inside my head so many times. It’s amazing how many slackers are out there.
      Each time I came to the conclusion that *I* would know that I was slacking. And that is almost a bigger problem than watching Slacker slack off.
      Do your best always.
      Why. Because in the end, the sincerity of a person bubbles to the surface. You know the job in ways that Slacker does not know the job. She can’t, she’s not there. Your sincerity and your work ethic will only work for you not against you.
      For immediate purposes if you don’t find a way to distract yourself from what Slacker is doing, you are inching your way toward the door. That is because these situations will cause us to quit. Since this has been going for years, you don’t have a lazy coworker problem, you actually have a lazy boss problem.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This and Emily Kimberly’s comments stand out. Why isn’t management doing something about it, other than skipping over promotions? If it’s that noticeable (which it seems to be), the fall out will be when the hard working employees get sick of slackers just taking privileges without apparent consequences and start leaving. I mean, I mentioned earlier that it’s career-limiting to the slacker (usually) but that’s a long term game. It’s totally fair to not have the patience to see that play out in real time and leave for a better workplace in the meantime.

    12. Alice*

      I’ve been out of the office a lot lately because of family medical emergencies. I certainly hope that my colleagues aren’t taking notes about my attendance. My boss, his boss, and her boss all know what’s going on, and the lengths that I’m going to keep keep my productivity up despite the lower butt-in-seat time. Why should I have to persuade busybody colleagues that I’m getting my job done when my boss – the person who actually knows the whole story of why I’m not there and what I’m accomplishing nevertheless – is pleased?
      I’m not saying that OP’s colleague is in the right…. I’m saying, OP, if you can focus on your job, or the ways that apparent slacker coworker is preventing you from doing your job, that’s where you should spend your energy.

  22. Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate*

    If you were interviewing for a job as a very early employee of a tech startup, what would be some green flags that would signal to you that it would be a good place to work? The founders are kind, professional, reasonable human beings, but it’s more useful to show that than say so!

    1. Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate*

      To add, here’s some things I’ve thought of:

      Clear about the benefits package (and it’s a good one)
      Female employees, especially in technical roles

      What else?

      1. Scrum Master*

        A generous maternity/parental leave policy even if they have not yet had an employee that needed to utilize it.

      2. Lumen*

        Hi! You clearly sound interested in working for a tech company that isn’t the sort we keep seeing in the news, and your starter list already suggests that you do not want to end up in a #MeToo story. So my first tip is this: don’t call women “females”. Some women don’t care, for others (like me) it is a red flag in itself. Here’s a link to get started on understanding why: https://jezebel.com/the-problem-with-calling-women-females-1683808274 but there is plenty to Google on that topic if you want to learn more.

        More to your point:
        1) Look for women in LEADERSHIP roles, especially if it is in a technical area.
        2) Racial diversity, and again: being in a leadership role sends a stronger signal of commitment to not being one of THOSE tech startups.
        3) Their HR/accounting/support staff a) exists and b) isn’t the only place where you find women.
        4) Family leave!

        1. Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate*

          I’m a woman as well! And while I agree with your point about not referring to women as “females” (unless you’re a Ferengi), I think it’s a perfectly cromulent word when used as an adjective. “I would be more comfortable with a female gynecologist” seems preferable to “I would be more comfortable with a woman gynecologist.” That said, if I were wordsmithing rather than typing with my thumbs in Internet comments, I’d probably say “women in technical roles.”

        2. catsaway*

          Also female and in a STEM field. I think ‘female’ is ok as an adjective – female engineer, female pilot etc – but is misogynistic when used as a noun – i.e. “How can I get females to like me?”

        4. Alianora*

          She didn’t call women females, though. I agree with catsaway — acceptable as an adjective, not generally acceptable as a noun.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      I’d want to know the business plan, including monetization plan (especially if they’re an online service).

      1. Jules the Third*

        +1 +all the ones

        At least three of my friends have been laid off when their startups went under. Two of the startups had… iffy business plans, and the friends never checked. A fourth friend was an early employee at Red Hat, and that worked out well for him.

    3. Brownie*

      I’d have to say the biggest would be transparency, not just regarding finances, but the business process. “Here’s our plan for getting customers/contracts” is good, “Oh, we got this, don’t worry about it” isn’t at the beginning of the company when they don’t have any track record yet. Do they have a business manager? That’s a huge plus if they do. Another big green flag is if they’re willing to actually buy software licenses for their employees when the employees ask for something business related. Same with office supplies, if they take feedback and order what the employees use then that’s a very good sign compared with a company saying “No, you get the cheapest thing on the market” or making employees buy their own pens & paper. Ergonomics, are they all for it and willing to get the fancy tilted mouse that’s $20 more to keep their employees happy/healthy? When you interview get a tour of where you’d be working. Chances are you’ll get to see other employees’ spaces so look close at them and see if those spaces reflect a happy comfortable person.

    4. Irene Adler*

      That they know their burn rate ($ wise) and there’s a solid plan or $ in place to see things through to final product getting to market (time frame too). If you can learn the name of the venture capital firm, then learn if they truly understand the industry they have invested in. You don’t want to find out this is their first foray into biotech (for example). They need to understand there will be bumps along the way and they are prepared to ride through them-and not withdraw funds unexpectedly.

      The benefits are real (medical, dental, life insurance, long-term disability) and not simply ones like: endless snacks, catered lunches every day and a beautiful place to work in.

    5. Aly_b*

      A real business plan and clear way of making money. Stock grants rather than options. Diversity in race and age among employees. Someone with some awareness of employment law and standards (do they have HR? If not, who is responsible for those functions?) Good luck!

    6. Ama*

      I would ask about their plans for growth — when do they anticipate bringing in a formal HR department (even if it is just a third party vendor)? An office manager? If they are in a coworking space right now (or working out of the founders’ homes), do they have benchmarks in mind for when it is time to move into a new office? I’ve worked for a number of small, just starting offices (not in tech) and the best experiences were those where someone was thinking not just about the product but about the necessary infrastructure for running a business like a business, if that makes any sense.

      My significant other was the 8th employee (and the first who was not a full time software engineer) of a tech startup, and one of the things that impressed both of us in the early going was that they were already in search of an office manager, and had a third party vendor for benefits already contracted. Which is not to say there haven’t still been some growing pains (most significantly when they finally got big enough that the founders needed to do more managing than full time coding — that was a difficult transition for both of them) but four years later they have 25 employees and are still showing promising growth — and most importantly, they’ve created a good working environment that has avoided a lot of the pitfalls that hit tech startups (unreasonable hours, expectations that employees be as devoted to the company as the founders, etc.).

  23. Roscoe*

    So I started a new job a few weeks ago. Its going pretty well, but I’m wondering how soon is too soon to start making suggestions on things. Not like major things, but just like “this is something I found worked at my last job”?

    I’ve definitely had new people who came in and did that way too soon, but I don’t know where I’d draw the line at what “too soon” is. Any thoughts?

    1. dr_silverware*

      Maybe try to frame it as finding out more about the processes. The problem when people make suggestions too early is that they don’t really know about the context or history of whatever process they’re pushing to change; if you ask more about the context and history of the process that gives you more information AND a bit of ground to make a suggestion during that conversation.

    2. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Last time I was the new kid I phrased these as questions instead. Why are things done the way they are? That way I got an explanation of why certain procedures were in place. Often I was able to take that and explain new ways to accomplish the same result with less effort. Doing it this way made me look more like a team player and eager to try and fit in rather than coming in and tossing the baby out with the bathwater.

    3. BenAdminGeek*

      Ugh, this one is tough. I think it’s almost on a per-suggestion basis. So if it’s a quick Excel thing to format things faster, that’s easy to toss out as “Oh man, it took me years to figure this out but it’s awesome!” But if it’s something where it’s a major change to work flow or processing, I’d wait 6 months or so.

    4. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I’m not sure its so much a specific time as it is learning the current process to see if your suggestion will really work. For some things that could be pretty early if it is a simple thing where using an Excel formula instead of something manual will work. For others you will need to really understand the current process as well as the purpose of the thing before making suggestions. We are going through this right now as we have a new person on staff. She is making a lot of suggestions but is also framing them as “I noticed X and was wondering if trying Y would work and free up people A and B to use their expertise on some other things”. So far she has about a 15% success rate but no one is upset or scoffing at her suggestions because of the framing and we know that is one of the reasons she was brought in from the outside as opposed to an internal candidate (people tend to stay FOREVER here so there are a lot of stagnant processes that rarely see an outside perspective).

      1. Aaaaaaanon.*

        I’m a relatively new person from the Scary Outside and I’ve found that this framing has worked well. Even as a pretty senior individual contributor, I’d be careful about adding the “and free up people A and B to use their expertise on some other things” part – it’s potentially too managerial-sounding.

        The other approach that I find works SO WELL is that I use tasks/projects where I’m solo as sandboxes for new processes so no one can validly argue that I’m trying to change their work. Then, once I have a good proof-of-concept, I can show a colleague who’s a trusted early adopter that I’ve done a Cool New Thing. If I can get them excited about exploring it, then I follow up with “Hey, do you think we could use [Part of Cool New Thing] to make [Existing Process I Don’t Own] easier/faster to maintain?”. Sometimes, they see Cool New Thing and ask me that question themselves, which is even better.

        It’s definitely a long-game approach, but it works so well because it prevents me from looking like I’m Monday morning quarterbacking people’s work, and because I use it as an opportunity to borrow a peer’s authority and influence.

    5. Aaaaaaanon.*

      “Too soon” depends on your role (individual contributor or manager), your rapport with your colleagues, and in some cases your level of technical skill relative to the rest of your team. That’s kinda vague, but some of these ideas might be more actionable:

      -If your team hasn’t seen your work at that organization yet, it’s too soon.
      -I’d say that you probably don’t want to make suggestions about revising a process until you’ve learned its history from someone intimately involved in its development or maintenance.
      -Ask “how” more than “why” – how is this done, how does this interact with our other processes, how does the team plan to maintain this process in the future? A lot of “why” questions can inadvertently come across as adversarial.
      -Don’t make suggestions during the initial discussions you have about the process.
      -Even for stuff like minor Excel tricks, you’d be surprised at the can of worms you can open up if you’re suggesting something that’s a bit beyond your team’s average skill level. Make sure you suss that out first, and be prepared to develop documentation for your colleagues. Even for something like a VLOOKUP. Learn what the upper bounds of people’s comfort zones are before you suggest any tricks.
      -It also never hurts to use “we” rather than “you” when talking about what your team does. It’s your team now, you’re a steward for processes that started long before you arrived.
      -Try to aim for “I’ve seen this work in similar situations” framing rather than referencing your last job. Everyone will know it’s from your previous jobs, but that’s not the point.

  24. Corky's wife Bonnie*

    Standing Desks: What do you like/dislike about them? My doctor recommended one due to a disc issue in my back. The two people in my office that have one never use them in the standing position so I can’t ask them.

    1. Jenn*

      I had mine for a few months, but just had to return it to the office coordinator because the set up when I was sitting down was giving me horrible headaches. However, the majority of my office has one and everyone seems to enjoy theirs.

      1. Triplestep*

        The kind of sit/stand accessory my company uses would have placed my keyboard too high when I was seated. Since I have two monitors, I got a monitor/keyboard lift and use one while standing, and I have the other monitor on the desk surface to use when I want to work sitting. My keyboard and mouse are wireless, so I just place them with whichever set up I am using.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I had to ask a coworker to make a different arrangement. We have cubes with low partitions, and she wanted one that would have had her staring into my face all day long (since I would be sitting, and she would be standing over me). I didn’t care what she did – turned the desk a different direction (difficult because of the way the cubes are set up, but not my problem), switched cubes, whatever – but that setup was not acceptable to me.

    3. CTT*

      I like them! Especially the convertible ones so you don’t have to sit all day. And they are good for your back – I had an SI joint issue recently and started using one and it really felt like it helped. I did one day of sitting for most of the day and then one day of standing for half of it, and I felt so much less stiff at the end of the standing day.

    4. Emily S.*

      This isn’t personal experience, but my sister has arthritis in her back. She likes using a standing desk and has a good setup at work. Seems to work well for her.

    5. SoSo*

      We have about a half dozen in our department, and several are for people with back, hip, and/or neck issues. They all love it and use the standing function regularly.

    6. Nessun*

      My new office is fully converted to stand/sit desks, and they are a wonderful addition *if* they are used properly. We do have the issue that if one person is standing and the person across is sitting, there is a sort of “looming” sensation – but this is somewhat mitigated by the dual monitors that are on each desk. If the line of sight is cut off, the sensation is significantly lessened, and no one has an issue with it (if you can watch your coworker, you’re not working, is the mentality).

      Of course, these are completely power-driven desks, so they can be moved to whatever height suits using a button, and they’re easy to change throughout the day. So it’s no hardship to go from standing to sitting or vice versa. I would *not* recommend a standing desk that didn’t easily convert – more than an hour at a time standing tends to make my back ache (and I do wear very supportive shoes). It’s great to have the option to stand, and it can make a difference in how I feel (energy level, aches, mindset, movement), but I need to sit too.

    7. Former Retail Manager*

      My likes/dislikes are not physical because I don’t have any issues that require/benefit from use of a standing desk.

      Likes:
      — When I have a large volume of paperwork (lots of physical documents that must be sorted and reviewed) I can do it much more efficiently/faster when I’m standing for some reason.

      Dislikes:
      — When I really need to think about and analyze a situation in depth, I have a harder time focusing on those sorts of tasks when I’m standing. Could just be me.

      Please let us all know how you like it.

    8. Reba*

      My spouse uses one. They just moved offices and I believe the company got them for everyone, regardless of medical stuff. They are adjustable and you can program settings, so that moving from your ideal sitting to ideal standing positions is not a hassle. Several people also got those squishy mats for standing. He likes the ability to change from sitting to standing: standing gives relieve from sitting, while sitting gives relief from standing. I am curious if anyone will install a treadmill combo. :)

      It sounds like your workplace would provide one. Do you plan to give it a try?

      1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        Yes, they are ordering one for me. I just haven’t talked to anyone that has used them, and the two that have one in my office never use the standing portion so they are no help. All the others in the main office have no trouble with them. I’m in a satellite office so I don’t know who has them and who doesn’t to ask their opinion.

    9. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

      I love mine! I have a combo sit-stand desk so I can sit normally, but raise it to stand when I want. It has helped some lower back issues I was having.

      The only downside is I have more achey feet because I stand so much. So my suggestion is to invest in a padded foot mat.

    10. LDP*

      I had one at my last job and I liked it. I don’t have any back problems, so I can’t really chime in there, but it was nice to have a change of scenery every now and then.

      I will say that I didn’t like standing while having to type a lot. In that job I having to write three blog posts a week, so when I was in writing mode I had to sit down, mainly because it was a weird angle for having to type a lot. But it was nice when I was working on anything with numbers.

    11. agmat*

      I work at home and have something like this: https://www.standupdeskstore.com/mobile-standing-computer-workstation-keyboard-tray

      Depending on what the rest of your set up is, it’s best to make sure you have room for printers, office supplies, and potentially a second monitor if you need it. I also recommend a standing mat to cushion your feet. I work barefoot and find it very comfortable.

      Overall I just feel more engaged with the work when standing. I guess it makes fidgeting a little easier in a way that keeps my mind focused? I’m not sure.

      You will want to consider what your backup setup can be, just in case. I’ve switched to a regular desk with yoga ball while pregnant because standing all day just wasn’t going to happen. If you develop a non-permanent physical limitation, you’ll want to think about how to handle that.

    12. Millennial Lawyer*

      I love them! It’s noticeably better on my back – when I sit now I feel hunched. Mine is a convertible kind so I can lower and raise it whenever I want. It also makes me feel more energized and less that I want to collapse into my chair.

    13. Little Bean*

      Love it. I used to have a job that required me to pretty frequently get up and walk around, at least once an hour. Now I stare at a computer all day. After a couple of hours, I start getting antsy and feel like I’m melting into my chair. The best part of having a standing desk for me is that I put on music and can kind of tap my foot under the desk – apparently I’m weird but it’s very hard for me to listen to music and not move my body a little bit. But I have a solo office so I don’t have to worry that the music or the movement is bothering anyone else.

    15. Chaordic One*

      It depends. I had the misfortune of working in an open concept office with cubicles. Obnoxious co-worker hurt her back when she fell while mountain-climbing and was given a standing desk. The desk meant that she stood above the cubicle walls and as she spent a large part of her time on the phone you could hear everything, and I mean everything, she said.

      She was one of those people with boundary issues who felt that in order to have a relationship (even a business one) she had to share all sorts of personal details of her life with them. And of course, she seemed to shout in the phone. I learned things about her and her family that made my hair curl. (Child birth stories are the worst!)

      Bottom line, you may be giving up some personal privacy.

      1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        No, I work in the lobby all by myself so that won’t be an issue, thank goodness.

    16. Fiennes*

      I use a platform I can put atop my desk to stand when I’d like. I’d say I sit 75% of the time but break it up with a couple of standing hours here and there. Full time, I don’t think I’d enjoy it—but it’s very helpful for my back and for productivity overall for me to switch positions every couple of hours.

    17. Windchime*

      I really like mine. I got it because I was also having back problems. Those are mostly resolved, but I notice that my back is markedly worse when I sit for too long. I estimate that I probably stand for 2-3 hours of my workday. I try not to sit for more than 45 minutes or so. When I stand, it’s usually for 20-30 minutes. I’m so accustomed to it that I really don’t notice a difference in productivity between sitting and standing.

    18. Alianora*

      I love ours. Super easy to change from sit to stand. Most people in my office switch back and forth. In my experience, sitting is better for concentrating and standing is better for creativity.

      I think moving around in general is better for your back, too. I tend to shift from foot to foot.

  25. EveryoneIsAnon*

    I recently filed for unemployment compensation benefits, which requires that I apply to two job postings each week (starting this week) and keep a record of the jobs and the results. You have to report if you turn down a job, which would disqualify you from continuing to receive unemployment benefits.

    Having to keep a record of my applications and the results makes me scared to apply to jobs. If I apply to a job and am asked to interview, I’ll have to go to the interview even if I find out from the phone screening that it’d be a huge pay cut or that here’s some other deal breaker. And, even worse, if I’m offered a job that I normally wouldn’t accept for any reason (pay, red flags, different from what I imagined it’d be, etc.), I’ll have to accept it or forfeit unemployment benefits. Once I accept a job, I’m stuck there for a few years, so this is a big deal.

    Now I feel like I have to ABSOLUTELY KNOW a job and employer are PERFECT for me before I can apply, which means I end up applying to nothing because there’s no way to tell if a job is perfect just from a job posting and reading about a company online.

    Does anyone have any advice on my situation? I’m starting to think I should only apply to jobs I’m obviously under qualified for (and use my “bad” resume and omit a cover letter to ensure no interest from the employer) just to meet the unemployment requirements until I’m able to find perfect jobs to apply for.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I think you’re overthinking this. If the interview doesn’t go well, you can indicate in conversation that your skills aren’t the right fit, and then they almost certainly won’t make an offer. That’s not the same thing as “turning down a job” if you ask me. Anyone else want to disagree?

      1. Luna*

        I agree with Lil Fidget. I had to do the same thing while on unemployment several years ago, it’s really not as onerous as it seems.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I tend to agree with Lil Fidget, there can be mutual opting out before you get to the offer stage that will not disqualify you. If you hear “big pay cut,” you can say “sorry, that’s not going to work for me” and move on.

      Also, I’m not sure what state/country you’re in, but I was on unemployment last summer and while I did keep a general record of applications, I was never once asked for it. It’s more as a backup, usually, in case of suspected fraud, and not required to turn in every week or anything.

      1. WFH*

        Yeah same here, I was never asked for it when it happened to me. I was under the understanding they would ask for it if you put in a request to extend your benefits beyond the typical period they’re offered.

      2. foolofgrace*

        I was asked for my list on two separate occasions. But I agree that you don’t have to take a crap job. Besides, how would unemployment even know about it?

      3. Millennial Lawyer*

        I would double check the laws in your state (utilize your state DOL website). “I’ll have to accept it or forfeit unemployment benefits” doesn’t sound right.

        1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

          It’s true in my state. But I honestly have no idea how it’s enforced. Would the company providing the interview report to the state Department of Labor that they made a job offer? It’s not a flip question; I honestly can’t envision how this works.

    3. WellRed*

      Agreed with everyone else here. Also, experience has been, the unemployment office doesn’t follow you that closely. Our UI office is a disaster right now and can’t even keep up with calls. But, I do remember having the same fears you articulate here.

    4. Bea*

      With IE, you are not expected to take a job that’s outside of your skill set and certainly wouldn’t be expected to take a huge pay cut!

      If you don’t like a job, tank the interview, you have to stop assuming they’re going to just snatch you up and shove you into their office.

    5. Nataliefac*

      Well, first of all, as mentioned no one in my state has ever been asked to show any kind of proof that they’re applying to jobs, so I wouldn’t worry too much about that.

      Secondly, you might want to double check the rule because it’s typically defined as “suitable employment”. UI isn’t generally going to expect you to accept a job outside of your skill set or with crazy below market pay.

      But also, not being able to tell if a job is perfect from the ad cuts both ways. Jobs that look blah in their ad could be perfect for you, and you won’t know unless you interview (sometimes not even then). The six months or whatever you get can pass pretty quickly. Unless you have an enormous savings cushion, I wouldn’t gobble yourself unnecessarily.

    6. Q*

      Double check this but I’m pretty sure you are not required to take a job if it will be a big pay cut. I just went through a similar situation and I ended up applying for a lot of jobs that I knew I probably wouldn’t get, like maybe I had 7 of the 10 qualifications they listed. But all the other jobs were way beneath my skill and salary level. I ended up applying for a lot of those too when postings for jobs I actually wanted and could do dried up. There is no bigger reality check then the slap in the face I got when I started receiving rejections for those jobs I thought were below me. After nine months of unemployment I took one of the jobs I applied for that was a big salary cut and I had to dumb down my resume to even to get an interview. (Bye Bye MBA) It tough out there, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the perfect job probably does not exist. I went from being a mid-level manager to being a clerk but I like living in a house and needed a salary, any salary.

      1. essEss*

        It depends on the state, and how long you’ve been on unemployment. https://www.thebalancecareers.com/unemployment-refuse-job-offer-2064181

    7. The New Wanderer*

      I went through this myself recently. Here’s what I found out:
      You do need to keep a record in case you are ever audited (it happened once in the 6 months I was on UI this go-round, didn’t happen at all the last time I was on UI 17 years ago). You can record just about any instance of contact with a company (your specific state will provide info on what counts). You absolutely don’t have to go on interviews for unsuitable jobs, much less accept bad offers. Turning down an offer to interview is NOT refusing an offer of work, so there’s no issue with applying to a job and deciding that you don’t want to go further in the process.

      If you end up rejecting a job and would have to answer “Yes” to “Did you refuse any offer of work?”, don’t file a claim for that week. It may vary by state, but in my state (WA) you can restart a claim anytime in the 12 month period from your initial claim. That is also the case if you just can’t do the min number of job contacts for the week (say, you were on vacation or needed a mental break from job hunting).

      It seems a little stressful at first because there is a clock on it, but the goal is to give you a financial cushion to get you into the right job, not any job. Good luck!

    8. TheCupcakeCounter*

      What everyone else said covers it but there is no reason you need to stay in an unsuitable job for several years. Many employers will understand accepting a job when stuck between a rock and a hard place and there is no reason you can’t leave a short stint like that off your resume.

    9. DaniCalifornia*

      I wouldn’t be discouraged. I went through unemployment and when I would interview, if I thought the job wasn’t a good fit, or was horribly underpaid I would usually follow up with a conversation or questions that indicated I probably wouldn’t be a good fit. So there was never any situation of offered a job and had to take it even though it was crappy.

      We had to apply to 5 jobs a week. I was on unemployment for a year and not once did they ever audit me. So it’s also highly unlikely (although not impossible!) that anyone is going to be following up on your jobs. The one person I know who got audited just had to show a little sheet of the date and job applied to. They never called the places she applied to. Half the time if you have to do a computer application or apply on Craigslist I just put the craigslist link or employment link on my sheet.

    10. Chaordic One*

      I was worried about that, too. I always made sure that I applied for at least 3 or more jobs every week with the idea that if I did get an unwanted job offer, I would leave it off of my unemployment form and would write down one of the other companies that I applied to. (Of course this might not work if the job offerer were to report my turning down a job to the state unemployment insurance agency, although I don’t know why they would.)

    11. Starbuck*

      Unemployment is meant to tide you over until you can find paid work again, it’s not meant to be an allowance for you to wait as long as you want until a perfect job comes your way. You apply for any job you can get, get off assistance, and then if you’re not satisfied you keep looking while you’re employed.

  26. MassholeMarketer*

    Thoughts on reapplying to a job you applied to if it’s been reposted? I applied somewhere early March and never heard anything. It was recently reposted with an updated start date of “Until the right person is found”
    My aunt is weirdly the hair stylist for one of the higher-ups at this place and they talked about my interest in the position this past weekend. I guess the woman wanted to make sure she knew my name. This was before the reposting.

    2. nep*

      My take would be — they already know you’re interested in the job if you applied as recently as March. I reckon it can’t really hurt to re-apply, but unless something went wrong in transmission they’ve already got your resume.

  27. sunbittern*

    One person in particular at my office goes into (or sometimes requests I go into) other people’s workspaces to rifle through their stuff looking for something they want. Sometimes it is a work-related document, other times it has been to borrow a phone charger. A lot of times he also stands at the high counter above my desk (I work at the front desk) to review drafts and requests office supplies from me; all while about 7 feet from his own office. I think this is weird and demonstrates terrible boundaries – he doesn’t usually ask permission, he just does it. He’s also a partner with a big sense of power hierarchy, so is very invested in the “I’m your boss” mentality. It’s good I’m getting ready to quit, isn’t it?

    1. Lyn*

      If he’s the boss, IMO he can go into anyone’s office and look for whatever he wants. Otherwise, he needs to stay out of other people’s offices.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        I do not expect my boss to go into my personal belongings and find things like my charger. Work documents and desk drawers, knock yourself out. You’ll just find my cheez-its.

      2. LazyDazy*

        Sure, if it’s work-related. But rummaging through people’s desks and looking for their personal phone chargers? Ugh, I have a coworker who does this. We do shift work, so she and I aren’t typically here at the same time, and I’ll come back to find my iPhone charger at her desk, or an IOU note where I sometimes keep spare change (not a huge deal if she needs to borrow some change for the vending machine once in a while, but it’s a very routine occurrence! I stopped keeping change at my desk because of her), or if she’s looking for a fork or a ketchup packet… it’s no fun to have your things routinely rifled through.

        She does this to everyone though, not just me. But it’s very annoying. I’d also find it annoying if she were my boss, though it’s a lot harder to say something about it if it’s the boss.

    2. dr_silverware*

      Ugh, that’s gross and gives me the shivers. Good thing indeed that you’re getting ready to quit!

  28. Tasslehoff Burrfoot (formerly Buffy Summers)*

    I had a job interview this week. I was very excited about it, but after about 15 minutes of questions, I was basically informed that I wouldn’t be getting the job. They had legitimate reasons and I completely understood – this job was totally unrelated to anything I’ve really ever done and so my lack of experience was the main reason. I appreciated that I knew up front that I didn’t get it so I didn’t need to wait for days or weeks wondering, but it was a weird experience for me. Kudos to them for having the backbone to tell me straight up what was going on, I guess.

    So I’m still searching. I’m thinking of relocating, actually. Has anyone ever just uprooted and moved somewhere new with no friends or family? How did that work out for you, if so?

    1. Nessun*

      Not the same scenario, because I moved for a job, but I have moved to a new province with no family/friends. Situation was, I had an opportunity I created, to move to a new job within my firm – the job offer was for Alberta, four hours by plane from my existing home/family/friends in Ontario. I knew no one in Alberta, had never visited, interviewed by phone.

      When I arrived, I had a job to fall into and get used to, so that took up a significant amount of time and energy – if you’re relocating before a job, of course that would be different. But the excitement of a new city – restaurants, culture, sport events, even walking new streets – was a huge boost in my emotional mindset every day. Given that I’m an introvert, it wasn’t hard to explore on my own, enjoy learning the city alone, and go home to a new space that I was making my own. I’m very comfortable going for weeks without speaking to my family – we text irregularly, and call less frequently, and I’ve made friends since I moved, but knew no one when I arrived. All of those were excellent points in favour of the move – and personally I found it a wonderful change, and very beneficial (I’ve been here six years now).

      So – it was fantastic for me, but I did have a job already when I moved, and my personality suited the challenge. I’d carefully consider where you draw energy and support from before encouraging anyone else to do it, not just the job market. (Hopefully that’s thought-provoking and not wishy-washy!)

    2. GDYankee*

      Right after college I moved from the Midwest to the South, hours from friends and family. It didn’t work out very well for me, for several reasons:
      1. The culture shock. I moved from the urban Midwest to the very rural Deep South. The weather, the food, the pace, the culture were all very different. I had a hard time adjusting to pretty much everything.
      2. No support system. I had a hard time making friends because most of my coworkers were in a different stage of life than I was, or were Southerners, or both, so we didn’t have a lot in common. I found some activities outside of work, but never found a group of people that I would say I was friends with.
      3. Transitions. Having to find a new grocery store, a new doctor, a new dentist, a new hair place, a new car repair place, internet service…all that takes energy and time and a bit of trial and error. I was working a lot, so I didn’t really have the time and energy to devote to those things.

      1. Ashk434*

        Yes, to #3! I’m black and I always have a hard time finding stylists who actually perform relaxers whenever I move to a new city. I’ve moved a couple of times and that’s usually the worst part about the process.

    3. foolofgrace*

      I did this. I am very proud of myself for being so brave. I ended up staying there for about 18 years, then moved back “home”. I sought out a group I was interested in to make new friends.

    4. foolofgrace*

      Also, i did lots of research and took a couple of trips down that way and even had some interviews though nobody would have reimbursed my moving expenses or made a firm offer. BTW my move was from Big City Midwest to Raleigh, North Carolina. Yep, it was weird being the Yankee at first but I got over it. Do be ready to take some night classes in your hobby or something to meet new people, don’t rely on work people.

    5. SharedDriveUser*

      I moved, twice, to a strange city where I had a job and only ‘knew’ the hiring manager and others with whom I’d interviewed. It’s strange, and felt a little lonely the first few weeks. However it was also very freeing – no one knew me, so there were no preconceived expectations (i.e., ‘You graduated from Local U – they’re all technogeeks!’). If you can, I recommend visiting the new area(s) first. Drive around on a weekend to see what the residential areas are like, and check out the commute/weekday traffic/etc. to see what you’ll be facing. Doing this helped me avoid a commute-from-hell that wasn’t apparent on the weekend, from my 1st choice neighborhood. Turned out all those great condos, the wonderful park & walking trails, etc., were on the wrong side of town!

    6. Jukeboxx32*

      My SO and I moved from Upstate NY to NC in 2016 just to try something new. My So has always loved the south, so following the IT boom down there seemed like a good choice after I finished my degree. Turns out it’s lonely as hell. Almost all of the friends I made were from work, and when I switched jobs in 2017 I had to start all over again. My SO worked from home, so the only people he talked to were friends from NY over IM. My family loved it though since we were a half way point to FL and a destination spot for mini vacations. On the other hand, that meant not seeing family and old friends for months at a time, and then having them infiltrate my house for a week or two at a clip. We just couldn’t find a balance between not seeing people enough, and seeing way too much of them when we went home or they visited us. And it burned up all of our vacation time from work going home for Christmas, Thanksgiving, and a few days in the summer.

      Long story short we moved back home to NY last thanksgiving and I have no regrets. We thought were were people people and could make new friends easily and that just wasn’t the case after all. Plus we like being able to actually use our vacations for trips we want to take, not just the obligatory ones home for major holidays.

    7. AeroEngineer*

      I have moved a couple of times in the last years to completely new places with no support network. Finding new doctors and everything is not fun at all, and actually, I am trying now to move to a city where I would have a much bigger network, as I am living alone, and I am SO ALONE (and my current city I am finding it so hard to really connect with new people). I have used my normal tricks of finding sports clubs and other groups, but this time it has been a lot harder than before. I plan on moving back to a city I lived in 5 years ago, and still keep in touch with a lot of people, speak the language, and love the city.

      The biggest reason I like moving is that I can kind of reinvent myself, there are no more preconceived thoughts about me, and I have so much room to grow, and I can always go back to visit people. I really enjoyed it before, but I think it is time for me to find a place I will live for years, not just a year or two.

  29. Bekx*

    How does one answer the “where do you want to be in 10 years” question when honestly you don’t have desires to move up. I’m 28 right now and working on my career but honestly the only thing I want to do is move down to part time eventually (10-15 yrs) and work on tasks assigned to me. I have no desire to move up and manage people. I have no desire to be a rock star. I feel like those are the wrong answers but I struggle to answer this question.

    I’m a web/graphic digital designer and if I had my way I’d be able to talk to people a lot and only work a few days a week. I am not good at freelancing, I work better with a deadline. I’m not very creative…I’m more tactical. Tell me what you want and I do it. I feel like those aren’t very good things to say in an interview.

    1. awb*

      Well, I don’t think that you necessarily have to talk about “moving up” leadership wise when the 10 year question comes up. I think it’s perfectly fine to say, I’m looking forward to developing skills in x and y (depending on what you’re really interested in/what the company does/what new dev in the field is). You can talk about your excitement about how your job (or industry) is developing and seeing where it goes. If people push on leadership questions – you could say something like “I find that I flourish best as an individual contributor and I’m excited about growing my professional skills in y and z”?

      2. JHunz*

        Yes, absolutely. You don’t have to make yourself sound excited about moving upwards into management if that’s not something you’re interested in. Talk instead about how you want to improve yourself when it comes to what you already do.

    2. Snubble*

      I’m in a similar situation and I focus on wanting secure, stable employment. It doesn’t have to be a ten year view just because they ask for one – I say that what I’m concentrating on right now outside of work is saving up for a home, so I want a role I can stay in for a while and really become an expert at, and that I’m more focused on this next step than the possible future career ladder.

      It’s obviously not going to impress people who want me to blaze up through the ranks, but that doesn’t decribe every employer. Plenty of people are hiring into a job, not a career, and they want someone who wants the job on offer.

      I would avoid saying the part about that part time, though. if you’re applying for full-time roles. The idea is to sound like you’d be happy in the job they’re offering.

    3. Fiennes*

      Why not spin it positively? “Actually, this is a time I’m really focusing on finding out which direction I want to go in. A position like this would let me gain more experience in X and Y, and deepen my knowledge of Z, which is information I feel I need before I define my long-term goals.” Something like that?

  30. De Minimis*

    I had a phone interview yesterday that I thought went okay, and have another today where I might be a better fit for the job. I’m a long-distance, out of state candidate for both, so I’m really pleased I’ve been able to get interviews.

    I kind of bombed an assessment for the first one, and I’m hoping that didn’t disqualify me. But maybe I did better than some others. I realize now how rusty my Excel skills have gotten….

    Just barely hanging on at my current job. It’s harder for me to feel engaged. Hoping to be gone in a month or two, and when I’m feeling stressed out, I work on my resignation letter.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I just bombed a phone interview, so you have my sympathies. I felt terrible about it, and my only consolation is that the job was very unlikely to have been the right fit for me anyway, because of the location. Still, it really sucked feeling like I didn’t put my best self out there and I’m embarrassed not to have been more prepared.

      1. nep*

        I hear you. I bombed a phone interview a few weeks back. It’s a shitty feeling. At the same time, great takeaways…I learned some good lessons as to how I need to prepare better next time. This was a job I was really excited about for many reasons…ah, well…live and learn.

        1. De Minimis*

          I had the same experience, the one I bombed was with a former employer [but a different location with new people] but it was more or less the same job as I had before.

          Only good things were that I wasn’t 100% sold on moving to where the job was located, and also the things I slipped up on really made me prepare better for the next interviews I’ve had, which have gone better and better each time.

    2. NoodleMara*

      Yeah, when I was feeling burned out at previous job, I actually write up process documentation that they would need after I left. I was doing legit work and it felt like I was taking care of things that would need to be wrapped up anyway.

    3. De Minimis*

      The phone interview I had today went really well! Seemed to click well with everyone, and the job is a good fit with what I’m currently doing [just on a bigger scale] but hopefully without the parts of my job I don’t like [the bleedover of HR/office support duties] The only drawback is it is literally a coast to coast move for me, and I’m not sure if the salary will be enough.

      But it always feels good to have an interview go well. This is only the fourth interview I’ve had since I’ve really started seriously looking.

    1. LizB*

      Some small piece of equipment in our copy room started dying last Thursday. Every five seconds: beepbeep … beepbeep … beepbeep … beepbeep … beepbeep. 24/7. We could mostly drown it out with music, but only if we could all agree what type of music to play.

      I put in a ticket that first day, sent photos to the IT team, several people sent emails begging them to do something before we all went totally bonkers. Finally yesterday someone came and replaced it. I could have hugged him.

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      At my grocery store job, we started making veggie noodles (zucchini and sweet potatoes cut into spaghetti-like strings). They gave us this gigantic industrial veggie cutting machine. It was heavy, loud, impossible to clean, and it broke within the first month of using it. I wanted to take it out back and toss it into a dumpster.

      1. Nanc*

        Oh, I’m sorry the machine is a pain because I lOVE those veggie noodles! They’re $2/lb where I am and while I could make my own, that’s a price I’m willing to pay.

    3. Nessun*

      Can I suggest *other people’s* office equipment? We deal with a government agency that lives in the dark ages (surprise surprise) and if I have to fax them one more thing I think I may scream. Why are we still faxing?! (We use a digital fax system that uses PDFs – they actually have a machine that spits out paper…when it works, which is once every blue moon.)

    4. DivineMissL*

      We have an industrial strength postage machine that looks like it belongs on the bridge of the Starship Enterprise – but it jams and beeps “PRINT ERROR” on a daily basis. All I want to do is stamp one letter, and it’s like Russian Roulette to see if it will pass or fail!

    5. Bea*

      My last place had calculators, they were not adding machines and I wanted to throw them into the ocean every day out of spite and hatred for them not being adding machines. I don’t know what the previous person was thinking.

      I hate my scanner, it’s a diiiiiiiiiiiick

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        I thank the powers that be every day that our copier has a scanning function so I don’t have to deal with a scanner like the one I have at home!

    6. Can't Sit Still*

      Our printers. We inherited them from the legal department, so while they aren’t “old” enough to replace, they have had high volume usage, so they break once or twice a week. And they beep every 10 seconds when there’s an error. Or a printer jam. Or it’s out of paper. Or it’s completely frozen and doing nothing at all, but it still beeps. Beep. Beep. Beep.

    7. Temporarily Anonymous*

      Not that I could physically get to it,but our database that was supposed to be an upgrade from the previous ancient one but crashes multiple times a week while we try to do time sensitive work. Aaargh!

    8. Middle School Teacher*

      Photocopier. Laptop cart. Smart board. (When I’m really stressed I imagine ripping the smart board off the wall with my bare hands and setting it on fire.)

    9. YetAnotherFed*

      The TV screens behind the checkout lines in our work cafeteria. Why are those even considered necessary?

    10. Jayne*

      I did go ‘Office Space’ on a piece of equipment once. The credit card reader quit working, so I called the support line. It quit working because it needed an update. It couldn’t update because it was too old. They couldn’t replace it because it technically still worked – meaning it turned on and was in one piece.

      I put the support folks on hold, lifted the reader up as high as I could reach, and dropped it. They sent a new one.

  32. Combinatorialist*

    My boyfriend is graduating this May with a PhD in Chemistry and isn’t sure what he wants to do for a career. I have a job in Albuquerque and we are moving there together in May. He does computational chemistry and so has some programming and modeling experience, but isn’t a “wet chemist”. He also really enjoys constantly learning new things and using math to solve problems. He enjoys working with people and at least one of his research projects involved close collaboration with a fellow grad student. Does anyone have any recommendations for the types of jobs he might enjoy? Also, he doesn’t really have any work experience. Does anyone have any tips on how to get over this roadblock?

    1. Grad Student*

      I’m not your boyfriend (obviously), but in a somewhat similar boat and would love to hear others’ responses!

    2. SoSo*

      I would suggest looking into a clinical-research style field. There are biostatisticians and research scientists that work on the company/sponsor side of things that would fall into those sort of areas. Juggling multiple studies, collaborating with team members and study coordinators at sites, and dealing with the data that comes with clinical trials. I know of one large pharma company that’s currently hiring for a ton of those types of positions.

      1. ggg*

        Look at defense firms like Sandia etc. Lots of them in ABQ, variety of problems, modeling skills are always in demand.

        1. Gnome Ann*

          Sandia is a great suggestion! Not having work experience wouldn’t be an automatic no from them, I don’t believe. National Labs are more open than most to hiring directly out of academia. However, it may be worth it to contact an industry-specific temp agency to get some kind of related work experience before applying.

    3. Irene Adler*

      Drug companies do a lot of modeling-via computer programming-in the research aspect of things. Might look into that.

    4. Brownie*

      Chemist with a PhD and modeling experience? Check for jobs at Sandia and Los Alamos National Labs and anyone local who’s working with them (check their public news releases for names and companies they’re partnering with). Not only are all those entities perfectly okay with no work experience from folks coming out of academia, but they’re very research oriented and do work on the cutting edge of the sciences, including doing chemistry studies and modeling using Cray supercomputers if the national labs are involved.

      One big caveat is that for the national labs they do prefer to hire US citizens who can get a security clearance, but that’s usually for the explosives side of things, not everything else that the labs have fingers in, such as Curiosity’s ChemCam, fuel cell research, ultra-cold reactions (hello space exploration!), and actinide research.

      1. MoinMoin*

        Seconding LANL. I grew up in Los Alamos (90 minutes from ABQ) and know a ton of people that work there. Broadly speaking, they have good benefits and compensation and a huge variety of projects with a diverse, science-minded community. They do have trouble hiring because Los Alamos is a tiny, middle-of-nowhere town whose restaurants close at 6pm, but a lot of positions offer some flexibility and remote work, so it might work. People from ABQ and Santa Fe do commute though, and I think there are some mass transit options. Actually, the guy from whom I bought a house in Northern CO worked for LANL and did some sort of schedule where he’d travel to the office a week a month or something.
        He may also try UNM, Kirkland AF, or look at LANL/Sandia contactors and see if they have offices in ABQ.
        Don’t worry until you start seeing him take notes while watching Breaking Bad.

    5. BuffaLove*

      I’ve heard good things about the Versatile PhD, if he doesn’t want to stay in academia.

      1. Combinatorialist*

        He wanted to be a professor but being in grad school changed his mind about being in academia. But by the time he figured that out, he was close enough to finishing that it seemed to make the most sense.

    7. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

      I’m not sure about actual work he would enjoy, but if you’re moving to Albuquerque, have him take a look at the national laboratories down there. There are a lot of opportunities for Ph.Ds and they will likely forgive his lack of work experience (that is pretty typical).

      I work at a different national laboratory not in NM, and I love it.

    9. Combinatorialist*

      Thanks everyone! My job is at Sandia and so he has been looking there. No luck so far but he is working on revamping his cover letter and resume. Does anyone have any advice for entry level cover letters when you don’t have a ton of experience?

    10. Student*

      Sandia is the obvious choice, assuming he’s willing to work in national security. LANL, if you’re both willing to go for the long commute and you decide to split the difference by living in Santa Fe. A lot of that chemistry isn’t wet, though some of it certainly is. Air base probably has some stuff (that’s open to civilian scientists) – he should check USAjobs for local listings for postdoctoral work and DOE/DOD/DHS chemistry jobs.

      He could try postdoctoral work at a university as the natural next step. I don’t remember the Albuquerque universities, but it’s a big city so there must be several. Those would give him a year or two to network and hopefully find something permanent he likes in the area.

      Otherwise, search local companies that do science/pharmaceuticals/environmental/biological. Check out the big national security contractors, as many of them have jobs in Albuquerque. Some of the firms that do radiation detection or health physics may have need for a chemist, but that’d always be a wet chemist.

      If he’s on good terms with his research advisor, he should ask the research advisor for ideas or connections.

      1. Brownie*

        Ah, forgot about the post-doc programs at the labs! It’s a good way to not just check and see if they’re what he’s interested in, but also a very good resume builder with real world experience. Sandia has a bunch of chemistry and materials sciences programs and this is the time of year they’re posting the post-doc job ads.

    11. KX*

      Publishers look for PhDs to find other scientists or researchers to write books (or to provide other types of content that needs curating). Acquisitions editors with PhDs can connect personally to academics and researchers, they can keep up with the journals and new trends, and they can help a potential authors identify ideas that can be expanded, assess ideas and see possibilities that someone who hasn’t gotten a PhD in the field might miss. They don’t actually write or even edit the books; they find the people who can.

    12. Ashk434*

      Um, shouldn’t he have figured that out before he pursued a PhD? Sorry, it just boggles my mind when people enroll in graduate studies (& sometimes take on debt) without figuring out WHY/WHETHER OR NOT they actually need those degrees.

      End rant.

      1. marmalade*

        I had the same thought. I sympathise with people who do PhDs and discover along the way that working in that field/working as an academic isn’t for them, but pursuing a PhD without knowing what you want to do for a career? I know it’s not helpful to the OP, but it’s hard for me to fathom.

        1. Grad Student*

          I did this. At the time it felt only slightly less sensible than pursuing a bachelor’s without knowing what you want to do for a career. That said, all my applications say I’d like to become a professor because that seemed true at the time. Now I can look back and see reasons why this was dumb, but I had to go through a lot of grad school to get to that point.

          FWIW Combinatorialist’s boyfriend also wanted to be a professor, so he fits in your first category and not the second.

      2. Another person*

        I mean, I think for a lot of people with PhDs (especially STEM PhDs which pay you decently) you go in thinking that you want to be a professor or do research and then after spending time in academia, you realize for various reasons that it is not the place for you. (Like… 22 year old single me thought it would be fine to move for grad school and move for a post doc and then move again for a professor job, 27 year old married me wants to move once I finish grad school and then have a job in a city near my family where we can have kids and have family nearby to help).

    13. Someone*

      As someone studying a very similar field, my list of jobs I might someday apply to looks like this:

      – research at a university or research institute*
      – research somewhere in the pharma industry
      – some other kind of modeling/programming job in the pharma industry
      – job involving programming and/or statistics somewhere in the medical field
      – job involving programming and/or statistics in some unrelated field
      – some job that requires some scientific knowledge, like e.g. writing articles about science
      – ANYTHING with programming
      – random job in some completely unrelated field, maybe in combination with starting a math/science blog and pursuing my artistic interests…
      – hopefully I never get to this stage
      – WTF? Still no job?

      I also don’t really have work experience, which is starting to make me feel a bit uneasy – but I’m not yet that worried. A degree that involves sound computer knowledge and is applicable to the medical field doesn’t sound like such a bad idea. Especially as drug research and analysis of medical data are increasingly computerized – I’d expect the number of jobs in that filed to still be in the rise.

      *I know, I know, the work/pay ratio is not so good, but I really really like research and at this stage still feel that writing papers and giving lectures would be nice

  33. Curious Cat*

    Last weekend I babysat for a co-worker, “Shirley”. Shirley has two girls, ages 4 and 6, who I had not babysat for before, but she had heard that I do a lot of babysitting on the weekends and asked me as a last resort since her regular sitter had fallen through. I had a great time babysitting her girls, and the girls asked me a lot of typical curious questions about myself while I was there, one of those being “Do you have a boyfriend?” I said, no, but I had a girlfriend. That led to a lot more healthy, inquisitive questions from them about how a girl can date another girl, and I answered them age appropriately. They left the conversation saying how cool it was that girls can date girls and boys can date boys!

    Well, on Monday after the weekend, Shirley came up to my desk and began to berate me for talking to her girls about my girlfriend. Everyone at work knows I’m queer and has met my girlfriend. Shirley has never given me any reason to believe she had a problem with my relationship. I asked her what I did wrong, and she said she “hadn’t told them about gay people yet” and was mad that I did. I apologized but explained that they asked me a question and I wasn’t going to lie.

    I was pretty stunned, and also pretty hurt. Shirley and I have been working on a fairly large campaign team together and she’s been refusing to speak to me all week. Obviously, our manager is having none of that and told Shirley that she has to cordially work with me on this campaign. So, Shirley has been showing up to meetings and doing her work but isn’t speaking to me at all. Do I just give her time to cool off? I don’t feel like I did anything wrong. Her girls asked me a question, I answered honestly. I didn’t realize that parents have set times for when they want to reveal the big idea of gay people to their children.

    1. Jenn*

      Wow. Shirley is a homophobic bigot and you should ignore her. I’m so sorry she is acting this way towards you.

      2. Curious Cat*

        Thanks, yeah, I’ve been pretty much just ignoring her outside of any meetings we’re in together right now, but based on what everyone else is saying in the comments (y’all are right), I should probably escalate this to HR and talk with our manager again if it continues into next week.

    3. Not a Lawyer*

      Does your manager know *why* Shirley was refusing to speak to you? IANAL but this might constitute a hostile working environment in the legal sense if it continues. If your manager isn’t aware that Shirley’s acting this way because of her homophobia, I’d loop her in very quickly.

      1. Curious Cat*

        Yeah pretty much everyone knows why Shirley is mad at me since I sit in a fairly localized area in the office and she did come to my desk on Monday to talk (yell) at me about her kids. I don’t feel like I’m in a hostile work environment, if I’m honest, because Shirley’s bigotry just isn’t worth my time to worry about, but if she continues the silent treatment into next week then it’ll be a disruption to my work.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          It would still be worth looking into whether her behavior counted as creating a legally hostile environment. Feeling like people are being hostile to you and actually being in a hostile work environment are two different things.

        2. Anonymous Ampersand*

          Yeah just because it doesn’t feel hostile doesn’t mean it isn’t, legally speaking. Certainly worth flagging with HR.

    4. Lil Fidget*

      I babysat for a coworker one time (not really a friend, just a work acquaintance) and immediately regretted it. It’s too intimate. Then years later I offered to dog-sit and realized it was almost the same situation. You’re alone in their house when they’re not there. I’m kind of a dummy that way. Now this is something I would never consider doing except for good friends or strangers who are paying me.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I realize I didn’t address the homophobia element – yes that sucks she is a lousy person. Hopefully others here can add insight onto your legal protections in that case.

        1. Curious Cat*

          This has basically taught me to never babysit for a co-worker ever again. I helped Shirley since she was in a bind and really needed a babysitter, but yeah, never again (even if they’re not homophobic, which I had no idea Shirley was…)

    5. Snark*

      My son has understood since age 2 that his aunt Stephanie is married to his aunt Jane and that sometimes, people love and marry other boys or girls, rather than the opposite gender, and that’s not a strange or bad thing but a pretty rad one. This is neither a complicated topic needing a big rollout or a topic so sensitive that it can only be rolled out to a certain age.

      Shirley is a bigot, and she’s creating a hostile work environment. I think she needs a come to Jesus talk with your manager and HR, because her actions are discriminatory.

    6. ThatGirl*

      Kinda blows my mind that she knows you’re queer, knows about your girlfriend, asked you to do her a FAVOR and then decided to get mad after the fact that you disclosed basic facts about yourself. Ugh, I’m so sorry.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, my mind is kind of blown here also. If Shirley knew she had not had this talk with her kids why didn’t she just do it? The girls are 4 and 6. Jeepers. Doesn’t Shirley know that little kids talk to each other about anything and everything?

        I remember when I was 5 a 4 year old taught me how addicts shoot up. (Yeah, the 4 year old had a rough life.) My friend had his first sexual experience at 4.5 years old. They used to call it playing doctor, now we call it molestation. Little kids are soooo candid with each other and so willing to explain stuff, even if the explanation is wrong. And these are difficult topics.

        Talking about homosexuality is not difficult. I cannot imagine how she fared with other topics that are not easy. If she is not talking to her children, then someone else is. Kids will keep asking until someone answers them.

        It sounds like you did a good job of explaining to these children. Mom may not appreciate it, but the kids will always remember your kindness. I bet they are asking Mom if you can come back. Kids are like that.

        1. InfrequentCommenter*

          This is sick. A 4.5 year old can NOT have a “sexual experience”. They may have some curiosity that pushes boundaries but these are not “sexual experiences”. A “doctor” would never be preforming a “sexual experience” on a patient, that’s a dog whistle for sexual assault. And a 5 year old showing other children how to “shoot up” I would be on the phone with CPS and the police so fast. I don’t think most reasonable people would be ok with a 5 year old demonstrating IV substance abuse, not that it would be the child’s fault but it would 100% signal neglect at best and abuse at worse.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I am copying his word choice, he called it a sexual experience. I told him that it sounded like molestation to me. This is a tiny part of an on-going conversation between us.

        2. WillowSunstar*

          The kids will likely Google such topics as soon as they get access to a school computer. They will learn about them regardless of Shirley’s timeline. I learned about such topics from books long before there was Google, but don’t underestimate children and their curiosity.

    7. Temperance*

      Shirley is a jerk, and you did NOTHING wrong. She’s apparently a homophobe, which is valuable information for you to have.

      You don’t need to have some big conversation with your kids about how gay people exist. Your kids will understand that sometimes girls date girls and sometimes boys date boys if they meet your friends who are in same-sex relationships.

      Talk to your joint boss.

    8. ExcelJedi*

      Shirley’s disgusting.

      I hope your manager and coworkers see that. I know, if this happened in my company Shirley would probably be socially frozen out, if not formally reprimanded at this point for letting her bigotry get in the way of her job. I hope she’s getting some of that same treatment where you are.

    9. Maude Lebowski*

      This is awful and uncomfortable for Curious Cat, but do we know Shirley is homophobic? Shirley hasn’t told her kids that some people are in same sex relationships. Maybe she’s struggled with how to tell them (although, yes, there are plenty of good resources on this topic) and might we assume her hostility is because she thinks this is something she should have discussed with her kids, not because Curious Cat is in a same sex relationship? Or i.e. if they had been told about where babies come from, she could respond the same (or is that of a different magnitude / order than a same sex talk, and if yes, pls share – am interesting in learning how). I totally agree with ThatGirl that you did her a favour and now she wants to yell at you because it didn’t go according to some unnamed plan. In the same situation, and if I had a same sex partner, I probably would have done the same as Curious Cat (and I sure as hell have re the where do babies come from question and ya, it did impact on me professionally), but maybe Shirley’s response is not homophobia [rising intonation] – maybe she’s just responding very poorly. Or is it homophobic because of the “for talking to her girls about my girlfriend” bit instead of in the abstract that there are same sex relationships? I don’t know what Shirley’s thinking, but might that be the homophobic moment? [I absolutely do not mean to minimize that this is having a hurtful and unprofessional impact – but am wondering if I am missing something and trying to ask without being too big a dick about it, I hope].

      1. Temperance*

        Yes, we do know that Shirley is homophobic. The existence of Curious Cat’s girlfriend isn’t some shameful, private thing. The existence of gay people shouldn’t be a huge conversation, either.

        Shirley’s acting as if her daughters were exposed to something very serious that they shouldn’t have been exposed to, because Curious Cat answered a very boring, benign question that little kids tend to ask.

        1. ANon.*

          I think what Maude Lebowski is saying is that Shirley might not be upset that Curious Cat is gay/ thinks it’s shameful, but that Curious Cat “robbed” her of the opportunity to tell her daughters about homosexuality in the way she wanted to. (Akin to a babysitter teaching the kids to ride a bike, if that was something the parents really cared about doing with their kids themselves.)

          Maybe (likely??) it’s still rooted in some homophobic tendencies, but it seems it could be more “parent who wants to control how kids receive info” than “parent who doesn’t wants kids to know about homosexuality because she’s homophobic.” But also obviously it could be both.

          Curious Cat, if you say she knew you were queer before, I’d be curious to know how she treated you/how she reacted whenever it came up.

          1. ANon.*

            Ok, read the below and change my mind. I see how a heteronormative viewpoint inherently erases/silences those not hetero. So I see why Shirley, if her intent was to have A Conversation about this with her kids, is making this a big deal and displaying homophobia.

      2. ExcelJedi*

        If Shirley thinks the abstract existence of same-sex relationships is a big thing that children need to be protected from, yes, she’s homophobic. There’s no way around that.

      3. Amtelope*

        Yes, this is homophobic. Believing that the fact that some people are in same sex relationships is something you have to find a special way to “tell your kids about” is homophobic. Kids do tend to assume that all families are like their family, so when they ask questions like “don’t all girls date boys?” you can correct them gently the same way you would if they asked “doesn’t everyone have brothers and sisters?” But we don’t sit down to have a big talk with kids where we dramatically explain “you have a brother and a sister, but not all kids have siblings.” That’s just an ordinary fact about the world. And so is the fact that some girls date girls.

      4. Maude Lebowski*

        Yes, I see and agree it shouldn’t be a big deal or shameful or private.

        We can probably assume Shirley has a pretty, pretty heteronormative worldview – but if someone holds that worldview, does that automatically imply homophobia? I am going to go Google that now… Wikipedia (err, not exactly the most robust of sources, but it will do) tells us, “It assumes that heterosexuality is the only sexual orientation or the only norm, and that sexual and marital relations are most (or only) fitting between people of opposite sex.” According to this, yes, homophobia. So it is a prob of my definition: I always thought heteronormative meant that the general assumption held by most people is that most of us are hetero, that the social structures in which we function assume that we are hetero, but that there are others outside hetero who may be excluded from things because they are not hetero and that one can _be_ hetero but not actively opposed to any relationship that is not hetero. This def suggests that’s impossible.

        And right, right,- like ExcelJedi says, her heteronormativity would likely not exclude her kids discussing or asking about the reality that sometimes men date women.

        1. ExcelJedi*

          Ok, I’m gonna add, because queer theory is my happy place:
          There are definitely people who are I guess something like “heteronormative light,” as opposed to the wikipedia definition – who think that heterosexuality is the only normal. It’s all they see because it’s all they assume is out there. They might know some openly LGBTQA people, but they assume that if someone hasn’t come out to them, they’re straight. They also may be in favor of all the political rights and needs of LGBTQA people, because it’s the right thing to do (and therefore are part of the solution regarding social and political structures).

          That’s still based off the ingrained assumption that LGBTQA people are somehow stereotypes or exotic. Like, if women don’t have short hair and forego make-up, they’re never going to think it’s possible that they’re not heterosexual. It leads to the erasure of many populations (bi erasure has been written about a lot, but the theory also applies to pan, trans*, ace and other queer groups). It also has implications for LGBTQA youth, who have a harder time coming out as a result.

          Tl,dr: people who fit your original definition still exist, but that worldview is still harmful.

        2. Amtelope*

          Heteronormativity is when it never occurs to you to mention to your kids that some girls date girls, because you assume that they and everyone they know will grow up to be straight. Homophobia when you get upset that someone else mentioned to your kids that some girls date girls.

          Wikipedia is not an awesome source for anything. Here’s a good article from Teaching Tolerance about heteronormativity and homophobia:

          https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/why-heteronormativity-is-harmful

          2. DiscoTechie*

            Yes, this article is great and just introducing the concept that there is not one standard template of love.

            My 4 year old daughter is definitely in the “when I grow up and get married” phase. It’s a part of every conversation that girls can marry girls, boys can marry boys, and girls and boys can marry each other. My line is drawn at her request for me (mom), or her dad, or her brother to marry her. The devastating consequences of this not so serious talk, not much. Homosexuality is pretty much the same concept to her as gravity. It’s natural and it exists.

            P.S. The one conversation that has made me laugh was that “when she grows up and gets married” (no particular gender specified) is that she wants to live next to a corn field so that when her kids get hungry they can just go out to the field and eat the corn. Seems legit.

        3. Rachel M.*

          Why are you trying to rationalize this? What you’re describing as heteronormativity is also part and parcel to homophobia and vice versa. Heteronormativity, heterosexism, and homophobia exist in a system that oppresses queer people and heteronormativity and heterosexism serve to normalize homophobia. It might be useful to read about the AIDS epidemic as it impacted white queer men in the 80s and 90s and then you can see that you can’t really sort out the heteronormative and the homophobia and the results are pretty much the same.

      5. bb-great*

        Because her kids have almost certainly been exposed to the concept of heterosexual romantic relationships (eg every fairy tale, ever) and there’s no reason to treat the existence of same sex couples differently. To think that the mere existence of same sex couples is somehow an “adult” or “delicate” or “private” topic is homophobic unless you also feel that way about straight couples.

        I think the sex talk is absolutely something a parent should be able to decide where, when, and how, and Shirley would be justified in being upset if that had happened (although she should still have to be professional about it. In that case I would consider it a consequence of mixing personal and professional life, for both Shirley and CC). But it’s not the same at all.

      6. Louise*

        Comparing telling a child that queer folks exist to the where do babies come from is actually at the core of the problem. There’s this mentality that anything to do with queerness is inherently sexual, and therefore inappropriate for children.

        Queerness isn’t something to ~* reveal *~ to a child. Queer people exist, and straight people don’t get to determine the guidelines of when and where we’re allowed to be full people.

      7. AsItIs*

        Quite. Shirley might have had the same reaction if the OP had let it slip that there’s no Santa Claus. Or it could just be a topic that Shirley hadn’t yet prepared for.

    10. KR*

      I would continue to act like you did nothing wrong …. Because you did nothing wrong. Feel free to toss out phrases like, “Oh, you’re still mad about that?” “You seem irrationally upset about this.” “Shirley, can you put aside your feelings about me being queer and update me about the campaign report you sent out?” “This does not sound like my problem.” “Shirley, I did you a last minute favor babysitting for you. I don’t understand why you’re angry with me. You don’t need to hire me again for babysitting but we do need to get this campaign done.”
      I would regard her with a low level of amusement and pity if possible, like a naiive child or someone who thinks the Earth is flat. She’s getting this worked up about the fact that her kids know gay people simply exist – how sad for her and her kids.

      1. Shamy*

        I so agree with this. Frankly, I’m grateful those little girls had such a positive introduction to a different type of sexuality than they have been exposed to because who knows how Shirley would have brought up the topic. I hope no matter what they are taught now, they will be able to reflect back on Curious Cat, that cool, nice babysitter and maybe use those memories to counteract any bigoted messages they receive. Also, what if her daughters had encountered gay parents of one of their classmates? Is she going to be pissed off because they dare to be gay parents? She is being ridiculous and you did her a favor.

    11. Anonnnnnommmous*

      I’m sorry this happened, but there is nothing wrong with Shirley, she is not a horrible person. You had a “sex talk” with her children. That was wrong. Shirley didn’t handle it well, but the red herring is the gay part.

      You should never talk about relationships to other people’s kids. They asked if you had a bf, the answer is No and it ends there. You didn’t do that and went on to explain way more than was asked.

      I had something “similar” happen at a barn, not about dating, but I was there and some one had their little girls there and they were all excited about seeing the horses. One asked me how you tell the difference between boy and girl horses. Huh… do I explain geldings? I mean the horse’s butts were right there… so I told them probably more than I should have. I didn’t know what to do, I grew up with horses so it was never a big deal to me. I later asked a friend who is both a horse person and a father, he told me I should have sent the kids back to their parents because it’s the parents right/responsibility to give the kids the information they want to based on their knowledge of their child. And no, I didn’t have kids at the time.

      All that said, Shirley does need to be professional and courteous to you at work and your manager should insist on that.

      1. Scrum Master*

        What? Saying she has a girlfriend was a sex talk? If the answer to “do you have a boyfriend?” was yes, would that have been a sex talk?

        1. Anonnnnnommmous*

          No, the sex talk was the follow up explanation. It’s giving more information than what was asked. If the answer to “do you have a bf” is yes or no it doesn’t matter, both end in a one-word answer.

          1. Natalie*

            You’re making a pretty big leap to assume that follow up conversations about dating somehow must have including any discussion of sex.

          2. Grad Student*

            Wow, no. Technically it’s more information that what was asked, but so would “No, but I have a husband”. At no point did anything about sex enter into the conversation, I think we can safely assume.

          3. Louise*

            if you hear “I don’t have a boyfriend, I have a girlfriend” and you mind immediately jumps to that person and their partner’s genitalia, that’s a you problem.

          4. SciDiver*

            I’m a bit confused about where you see this turning into a sex talk. Children can ask plenty of healthy, age-appropriate questions about relationships that have nothing to do with sex–this is true whether they ask about boyfriends and girlfriends or partners of any type. If OP had a boyfriend instead, would Shirley have had a problem with her kids asking questions about the boyfriend? Somehow I doubt it.

            What I do see is adults getting upset that someone chose not to closet themselves unnecessarily to preserve the parent’s comfort (which OP didn’t know would be disrupted by being honest about her girlfriend). There is nothing inherently sexual about queer relationships, and I’m really tired of having conversations about them shut down because girl with a girlfriend has somehow become synonymous with sex talk. The kids of course had questions (how can girls date girls?) because they’ve grown up thinking the rule is girls date boys, but if they didn’t know queer folks exist I doubt they would even know to ask about sex or how that “works”. Adults are the ones who do that gross line of questioning.

            1. Anonymous Ampersand*

              What I do see is adults getting upset that someone chose not to closet themselves unnecessarily to preserve the parent’s comfort (which OP didn’t know would be disrupted by being honest about her girlfriend). There is nothing inherently sexual about queer relationships, and I’m really tired of having conversations about them shut down because girl with a girlfriend has somehow become synonymous with sex talk.

              Quoted for truth.

      2. Natalie*

        I feel like there’s an enormous difference between explaining castration to children and briefly answering a simple question about relationships.

        1. IHaveANiceCat*

          Agreed. She didn’t have a sex talk. She didn’t show the girls a horse penis ffs. She said she had a girlfriend. If the girls were old enough to understand what a boyfriend was, they were old enough to understand what a girlfriend was. Shirley’s aggressive behaviour also indicated homophobia. If she had calmly said, “next time my girls have a question like that would you mind consulting with me first?” maybe that would have been better.

        2. Anonnnnnommmous*

          Briefly answering a simple question about relationships? Really? Not when introducing new concepts that require further information and explanation.

          My point is that the similarity is about sex/sexuality/gender not about whether they were talking about a gay or straight or asexual relationship. My point is that the more that is explained the more that opens up further questions. Yes or No was all that was asked and all that was needed to be answered.

          I didn’t attempt to explain gelding, but I did get in deeper than I should have because every answer brought another question. I’m an over-explainer and I’ve had to work hard to answer what is asked, not what is asked plus all the nuanced exceptions. With kids especially, I think that is important.

          1. Ray Gillette*

            Honestly, comparing a person’s sexuality to animal castration is kind of offensive.

          2. Natalie*

            If the kids asked her if she had a boyfriend, than having boyfriends and girlfriends isn’t a new concept. And covering “girls can date girls and boys can date boys” doesn’t require any more understanding of sex than the children *clearly* already have since *they* asked her if she had a boyfriend.

      3. ExcelJedi*

        There’s a pretty big difference between sex and relationships. Saying “I don’t have a boyfriend but I have a girlfriend” is not a sex talk. It’s a relationship talk, and comes really naturally when you get a question about whether or not you’re in a relationship.

        If the girls had asked “what’s the difference between boyfriends and girlfriends?” would the conversation have gone the way the gelding conversation would? Of course not! Kids understand gender, whether or not they understand sex and genitalia. Your story is about primary sex organs, while Curious Cat’s is about perfectly child-appropriate understandings of gender.

      4. LDN Layabout*

        Coding gay relationships as inherently and exclusively sexual vs. hetero ones as ‘normal’ and allowable conversation is incredibly homophobic.

        If they know about boyfriends for women, there is no difference between that and boyfriends for men and girlfriends for women (and every other combination in the spectrum).

        1. Louise*

          Yup. Said something similar above before reading this. Queer existence does not equal sex, and if you think that, you need to seriously reevaluate your feelings about queerness (because hint: you’re being hella homophobic).

          1. SciDiver*

            This this this. Adults are the ones who conflate queer relationships with sex and ask weird intrusive questions, not children.

            1. LDN Layabout*

              Like how youtube had a spate of flagging gay content, whatever it was, with adult-only or sensetive or whatever bs they used.

              Or how films ratings-wise, a gay kiss automatically moves the rating higher than a straight one.

      5. Guacamole Bob*

        I wonder where Curious Cat lives. In my liberal blue collar east coast urban area, I’ve never run into trouble as a two-mom family meeting or talking with my preschoolers’ friends. The kids all just accept that their friends have two moms and that two women can get married, and it’s seriously no big deal. If one of them did ask me a question about it and I answered it factually and neutrally I can’t imagine any of their parents getting upset with me because most people in my liberal corner of the world aren’t homophobic, and I wouldn’t be talking to the kids about sex. The fact that there are some people who date or marry people of the same gender is a fact, just like the fact that some people live with their grandparents, or that some people have step-siblings. In my experience most little kids accept it easily, unless the adults around them make a big deal of it.

        Would your answer change if the girls had seen a picture of an interracial couple in a picture book and Curious Cat had responded to questions by saying that people can marry people of different races? Would that be answering a sex question? Same-sex marriage is newer in the US than interracial marriage, but the basic principle isn’t that different. Shirley would be a racist if she thought that she had to have a big conversation with her kids to introduce the concept of interracial marriage, and she’s homophobic in her behavior now.

      6. Plague of frogs*

        I am confused as to how you think this had anything to do with sex. I find it a little creepy, honestly. OP told us she has a girlfriend, and yet we know nothing about her sex life. See how that works? Anything you think you “know” about it is happening in your own fevered imagination.

      7. Bird*

        You need to stop equating the existence of queer people with overt displays of sexuality or discussions of reproductive organs. It’s attitudes like yours that make me afraid to even hold my fiancee’s hand in public, when any straight couple can hang all over each other with impunity. I’m so offended I can’t even speak.

        1. Windchime*

          Come to Seattle. Nobody will give you a second look if you hold your fiancee’s hand here. We are just happy to see people who are in love.

    12. Former Retail Manager*

      Watch out Shirley! Your true colors are showing.

      While I don’t agree with Shirley or her treatment of you at all, you have to understand that people get super weird about their kids and discussing certain things with them and when that will occur. Most of these people tend to be very “religious.” And there are definitely appropriate times to discuss certain topics with your kids, but that varies parent to parent. Some are early, some late, and some, ridiculously, never at all. I have a friend whose mom never that “the talk” with her….EVER! She is only 30 so this wasn’t another generation. Oh, her mom is really religious.

      I don’t mean to bag on religious folks. To each their own. If you want to salvage your professional relationship with Shirley, I’d let her cool off for at least another week and then bite the bullet and apologize to her. If she continues to be obviously upset, I’d emphasize that you need to be able to work together professionally, without this past issue getting in the way, and if she doesn’t believe that she can do that, then you need to know. And then I’d discuss it with your manager.

      Try to look at it from another perspective….if you had children, needed a last minute sitter, and the kids asked about gay people and your religious sitter said that they were sinners and would burn in hell, because that is what she believes and that is her truth, would you be okay with it? Probably not. It’s a topic that you probably would have rather discussed with your children yourself so you could frame their view to correspond to your own values and beliefs.

      1. Curious Cat*

        You make some great points. It’s true I don’t know if Shirley *is* in fact homophobic or if this was more of a parenting thing. I’m not a parent, so I can’t say I know about wanting to tell your children certain things at certain times. But, yeah, I’m asking more about how to be handling this professionally and so I think you touched on some great things I should do. I’ve let her cool off this week, and I can try to let it go next week, but if it does keep going it will be hurting the campaign and that’s my biggest worry.
        (FWIW, I did apologize in the moment).

        1. Amtelope*

          I don’t think I could bring myself to apologize for what you said, but I think it might be worth saying something to her like “I’m sorry I took the babysitting job — doing side jobs for coworkers can be a problem when it doesn’t work out well. We won’t do that again, so let’s focus on our work here in the office. I know we both want to keep working together smoothly on our joint projects.”

          I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

          1. IHaveANiceCat*

            Please don’t apologize. You gave an age appropriate answer to a question that a curious child asked.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Agreed. Based on my own life experiences, I believe that if you have not been talking to your kids about many topics by age five then you lost your chance at having strong inputs. I lived in a very different world from my parents who were 40 years older than me. They had NO clue. By the time I was 7 I knew my parents were lost on so many topics.
              Fortunately, I read a lot so this helped some.

      2. Ange*

        “Gay people exist” and “gay people will burn in hell” are not equivalent. One of those is a fact, the other is an opinion. Plus, if you don’t want your kids to learn about gay people, maybe don’t get someone queer to babysit them.
        If my friend asked me to babysit, and her kids asked me about my gender identity, I will tell them (in an age-appropriate way). Don’t like that? Don’t ask me to babysit, then.

        1. Triumphant Fox*

          YES. This just seems so obvious to me. If you have such a narrow worldview, you need to police it pretty thoroughly…how can Shirley not know this? If I go to your house and your kid asks why I’m not eating a roast beef sandwich, I’m going to be honest as to why I don’t eat meat (not in a graphic way, literally just “I don’t eat animals”…which will probably lead to “why?” and I’ll explain it in pretty general terms). If you’re a die-hard meat eater and now you’re sad that your kids don’t want to eat animals…you could have given me a heads up that you are going to have a “big talk” with them someday about the strangeness that is veganism. I’ll think less of you and probably agree to a lot less dinner invitations, but I won’t foist my opinions on your kids. If you’re homophobic and you want to have a big discussion with your kids about how to “handle” gay people, that’s not normal and not expected. How would a queer person know that you wanted them to keep all discussion of their sexual identity private? You need to give them a heads up – outing you as a homophobe, but keeping that rigid worldview. You don’t really get to both not put any measures in place to maintain your homophobic paradigm and then be upset when it gets disrupted.

      3. Kyubey*

        I still think there’s a difference between telling kids gay people exist- which is a neutral fact at least- and giving a positive/ negative opinion about them. If Shirley didn’t want them to know gay people exist at all because of their age, I think that’s absurd either way and she should accept she can’t hide everything in the world from her kids. If she wants to feed them negative opinions of gay people, even if I disagree they’ll still need to know homosexuality exists to have an opinion on it.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If Shirley did not want them to know about gay people because of their age, then Shirley has some dream world stuff going on. They already had an inkling at the very least. I think they knew and that is how they came up with so many questions for OP.

      4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I’m not convinced that religious indoctrination is equivalent to “hey people like this exist in the world and I’m one of them.”

    13. only acting normal*

      I do love the way kids ask a straight forward question, get a nice straight forward answer, absorb it and go happily about their day having learned “new thing X”… and then the parents get involved. *eyeroll*
      I hope the 4 and 6 yr old remember their pleasant conversation with you over any BS Shirley projects/tells them in future.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Oh they will. I have very strong and pleasant memories of people who took me seriously enough to give me real answers. Kids know.

    14. Brunch with Sylvia*

      Shirley’s response is straight up inexcusable and unprofessional…but also, you did overstep here a bit.
      Parents do indeed have set times for when they reveal lots of seemingly innocuous as well as big ideas to their children–all things related to sexuality certainly being one of them. I think you were in the wrong for not gently deflecting their questions about your personal life (whether queer or not)–especially since this was the first time you babysat them and most definitely since you work with their mom.

      1. catsaway*

        Nope. As has been covered above, if you are a woman with a girlfriend revealing that fact reveals just as much about your sexuality as saying you have a boyfriend, nothing more. The girls asked if the OP had boyfriend which means that they know that adult women have boyfriends so there’s nothing inherently different about learning that an adult woman has a girlfriend, unless you’re at least somewhat homophobic.

        1. Melody Pond*

          Especially given the fact that the spectrum of asexuality exists. There could very well be people in asexual relationships, who have either boyfriends or girlfriends.

    15. InfrequentCommenter*

      Is Shirley not talking to you about work things or is it just that her normal level of chit-chat (asking about the weekend, commenting on the office coffee) has decreased?

    16. Anonymous Ampersand*

      For all those who are like “she’s out of order but you overstepped”:

      CC is queer, co worker knows this, and still asked CC to babysit. Co worker never said pls don’t mention your gf. And you still think CC shouldn’t have mentioned it?

      I’d love a non-heterosexual to talk to my child about how they are a woman with a woman/man with a man/ whatever.

      1. Brunch with Sylvia*

        We don’t all share opinions and preferences, though! The implied contract with a casual first-time babysitting agreement is that the kids are kept safe until parent returns. Play, distract….whatever…but you are not the stand-in for discussions.

        1. Ray Gillette*

          I think the implied contract is that if you don’t want kids to know gay people exist, don’t invite gay people to babysit.

          3. Brunch with Sylvia*

            Right. Doesn’t make much sense that if she actually is homophobic, she would ask OP to watch the kiddos. Of course since she is being so widely inappropriate, it’s understandable that Shirley’s motivations and beliefs are called into question. But I don’t blame her for being upset.
            Maybe Shirley wants a babysitter to push her kids on the swings, get them a juice box and keep them safe until she gets home.
            It surely isn’t a babysitter’s perogative to evangelize her charges to anything.
            I can think of 2-3 similar things with sitters when my kids were young—religion, a medical condition and someone who was living with her boyfriend. Two different sitters deflected or diverted my (naturally) nosy kids Qs and gave me a heads up when I got home.

            1. Someone else*

              You don’t seem to be leaving much room for the very wide variety of homophobia, that spans all the way from “I refuse to even speak to a gay person” all the way to “how dare you answer a direct question from my child about your existence”. Just because she doesn’t have a pitchfork, doesn’t mean she isn’t actually homophobic. Subtle homophobia is a thing.

              2. Brunch with Sylvia*

                OP didn’t ask if we all think Shirley is homophobic.
                She asked “Did I do something wrong? “ And my answer is a (gentle) “Yes. I think you did and here is why.”
                That is what the work open thread is for!

                1. Someone else*

                  That’s true. The OP didn’t ask if Shirley were homophobic, but your post seemed to imply Shirley “isn’t actually homophobic” and I was disagreeing with that. I also disagree that OP did not anything wrong. Shirley’s upset seems to require OP to closet herself. Pretend she’s not who she is. That’s what deflecting the children’s question is. That’s not acceptable to me. OP didn’t say anything inappropriate. She answered in a perfectly matter of fact, truthful way that gay people exist. Shirley needs to examine her feelings on why she’s OK working with a gay person, OK with a gay person babysitting, but not OK with a gay person acknowledging they exist in front of a child. (or I guess Shirley doesn’t need to, but if Shirley thinks she’s not homophobic, she’s wrong)
                  If these children go to school and interact with other children, they could’ve just as easily had the exact same conversation with another five year old who has two moms or two dads. “Yes, girls can have girlfriends and boys can have boyfriends. And wives. And husbands.” We exist.

            2. Anonymous Ampersand*

              She didn’t “evangelise” from what’s been said here. She answered a question. She didn’t follow it up with “and you should be queer too it’s the best way to be!!!” (I know we don’t know this but I’m gonna go out on a limb and state it as fact.)

              Someone who was “living with her boyfriend”?! This was something that needed to be deflected?! I’m presuming this was a long time ago because that seems like such a non-issue now that I am astonished you’d bring it up. I mean, I remember all the pearl-clutching on “Neighbours” when Scott and Charlene wanted to “live in sin” and Bon Jovi singing “living in sin” but…. srsly. A babysitter telling my similarly-aged child that they lived with a boyfriend/girlfriend wouldn’t even cause a quiver in my shockometer.

              1. Brunch with Sylvia*

                I brought up real examples of the topics that the sitter chose to deflect when they were unsure what my family’s values and beliefs were as a an example toward the point I am trying to make (in futility it seems). I didn’t say that I was personally in opposition to the decision to live together.
                OP says she answered more than a single question and is in fact being commended for the healthy and positive introduction to same sex relationships she provided for the children. I believe that in the context of a casual babysitting arrangement esp with a coworker’s child this was an overstep. So seeing another issue within the issue doesn’t mean that I don’t understand homophobia. I just wasn’t having that discussion.

      2. Arjay*

        Yes, if Shirley had some reservations about this topic coming up, she should have broached that with CC first. And then CC could have decided whether or not she still wanted to do Shirley this favor with the condition attached that “I’d prefer you not talk about your girlfriend to my kids right now.”

    17. Jules the Third*

      whoo.

      As a parent, yes, I do want to have a lot of input and a little control over my kid’s exposure to the world. I’m pretty open with him, we’ve talked LBGTQx since he was very young (we spent one summer with my sister and her partner, for example), so this would not have been *our* hill to die on, but Mr Jules and I are atheists, and the Xtian conversations are where we have had similar experiences, with outsiders bringing up topics we’re not ready to address (circumcision to a 6yo? REALLY?).

      Susan should not have gotten mad, that is homophobic and unprofessional. The constructive way for a parent to address this is to say, ‘X exists. Here’s how it relates to my opinions and experiences, and how it might impact you.’ (eg, “Yes, young (male) Jules, if you want to marry Best Male Friend, we’d be very happy that you found someone you love.” )

      So sorry that she’s taking her inability to parent in a constructive way out on you.

    18. Student*

      When you reveal the existence of gay people to children who are too young to have any personal, developed sexuality, they will do exactly what children do when they find out about the mirror concept of opposite-sex relationships.

      They play at such relationships. With no concept of what they’re literally saying or talking about or how it sounds to a clueless adult.

      Some time after you left these kids, their mother likely found out that her kids had learned about homosexuality because her little girls probably proclaimed that they were only going to date girls, or wanted to date particular girls, or played at getting married to another girl. They didn’t have a polite conversation with their mother to learn more about the concept – they jumped right into imagining it for themselves, trying it on, to see if it fit. Just like if they’d heard about the new (to them) concept of dinosaurs, flying super-heros, horses, surgeons, soldiers, hair stylists, firefighters, cooks, or anything else.

      What I’m saying is, you didn’t do something wrong by introducing them to the concept of gayness. You did something wrong by not giving their mother a heads-up about it so she wouldn’t freak out when her little darlings started doing something like playing at gay marriage during Grandma’s next visit (maybe even proposing to Grandma herself).

      And it’s possible you erred by going too in-depth on something inherently sexual for your first time meeting these kids; it might’ve been better to give them less follow-on details than you did, even though they asked, because it’s your first discussion with them. If they’d asked me about my boyfriend, for a parallel example, I would’ve been honest about having a boyfriend, but I would’ve re-directed or defused if they wanted to know major details of my relationship (common kid follow-ups being “Are you gonna marry him? Are you gonna have babies together? Do you KISS him?” – I don’t think they need to know that level of detail from a babysitter, they’re usually more interested in teasing than in real details, and it sounds like maybe you indulged any question they had a bit too vigorously).

      1. catsaway*

        But how is that different then anything else kids do? By your logic a brother and sister could just as easily play at ‘marriage’ because probably most parents aren’t giving their 4-6 year olds nuanced ideas of what a romantic relationship actually entails.
        To your last paragraph, similar to your reply to The Librarian’s question above you’re making a lot of unfair assumptions about what the OP said to the kids and that she didn’t answer questions appropriately. Given that she babysits regularly she probably knows how to talk to children, similar to how you’d hypothetically redirect all conversations with children appropriately.

      2. Louise*

        Queer relationships are NOT inherently sexual, no more than literally any other relationship.

      3. The OG Anonsie*

        The inherently sexual bit has already been hashed out in the comments here and, if you’re gonna stick with that, I’m just gonna direct you up the thread to read up on why that’s whack.

        But for your first point about needing to give mom a heads-up in case the little girls played marriage some time but this time it was play gay marriage, I feel like you’re answering your own inquiry about why mom’s reaction here is crappy. If you wouldn’t be concerned about these kids doing a pretend wedding or pretend family deal as long as it was hetero but would be very concerned if they did the exact same things with two girls as the couple… Then uh, yeah, you inherently have a problem with gay people, and you’re standing bare-assed in the middle of Doing The Wrong Thing. It’s not the responsibility of every queer person in your orbit to treat you with soft kid gloves so that the delicate Faberge egg of your Wrong feelings doesn’t get roughed up.

    19. smoke tree*

      Bleh. It says a lot about Shirley that she was just assuming her kids would never come across any evidence that queer people exist until she’s ready to tell them. It’s also pretty gross that she took it for granted that you would pretend to be straight for her kids’ benefit, since naturally it’s such a shameful fact that you have to protect their precious sensibilities. My guess is that she was hoping they could go through the magical period of childhood blissful in their ignorance of the existence of queer people.

    20. Fiennes*

      You didn’t do anything wrong. Shirley deserves to get put in her place hard. You did her a favor, and she showed her ass. I would (politely, firmly) disabuse her of the idea that I had anything to make up to her, and that if she doesn’t want to get dragged into HR for bigotry, she better learn how to keep her ugliness to herself.

  34. Librarian Interview*

    I commented a few weeks ago in advance of my interview and received a lot of great advice. Well, I got a job offer!! Unfortunately, I don’t think I’m going to take it based on a qualify of life decision, but I’m really, really torn because I know I would enjoy the job itself. I’ve heard for years that the library job market is just awful. Librarians, how true is this really?

    1. former archivist*

      The job market for librarians is terrible. But given that you received one offer maybe you are a really great candidate who won’t have trouble getting more offers. If you think this opportunity could be a stepping stone to something else then seriously consider it.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      The market is tough. If you are not willing to move, it is even tougher. The reality is that there are more people with library degrees than job openings. I wish you so much luck and you have do to what is right for you, but yes- the market is awful. I moves 3000 miles from my home to get a job in my field. I am 100% certain it was the right decision, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a hard decision.

      1. Librarian Interview*

        I’m absolutely willing and able to move, to the point where I’m excited for change in scenery. I plan on waiting until I’m vested in my current position and then to start pounding out the applications.

    3. Reba*

      I just saw an opening for archivists at Paisley Park, just a thought ;)

      good luck with your search!

    4. Lala*

      The market is really, really terrible. It’s not getting better, either, because as librarians retire, most of those positions are being removed, not replaced. If you really want a library job, odds are you need to snatch whatever presents itself to you, even if it’s not ideal (especially if the main issue is just location). If you’re okay working in an adjoining field, then I’d worry about turning it down a little less. If you have a specialty/experience in e-resources or systems, then you’re also probably going to have more options. But I know several people with multiple degrees and years of experience who can’t find library jobs.

      It’s pretty bad out there, and the rate at which library schools are churning out new librarians isn’t helping the situation.

      1. Librarian Interview*

        The main issue is location (cold, snowy, grey). I work in an adjoining field now and have since I graduated a few years ago with my MLIS. I have some front desk library experience, but haven’t formally used my degree since I graduated.

    5. bb-great*

      It’s really awful. Part of deciding to do my degree was deciding that I would move wherever I needed to to get my first job, because that’s the reality of breaking into the field. After that you can afford to be a little pickier. But essentially you have to be flexible on either location or job duties. I decided on location because I’m single with no kids, so not tied to one place, and because getting experience in my area of interest means it will be easier to continue to work in that area later down the road. *If* you think you would like the job and it would give you good skills and experience to eventually move on, do it.

      1. Librarian Interview*

        Thanks for your input. I definitely think the job itself would be an amazing experience, but I realized that I absolutely can’t mentally deal with living in a cold, grey place so I unfortunately have to decline. The good news is that I have the entire south and most of the west to look for a job in. I wish I could pick this job up and move it three hours south of me.

    6. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

      I’ll second others to say that the librarian job market is pretty terrible… but not impossible! There *are* some jobs out there, so I’d encourage you not to give up completely. But I will say that it’s much harder when you’re tied to a particular area, as another commenter mentioned above.

    7. Talvi*

      Also applying for library/archives jobs, ugh (just finished my program!). I’ve decided I am willing to move anywhere in the country (except the Territories because the cost of living is astronomical up north), provided I can get full-time work for at minimum a 1-year contract (lbr, relocating for a 6-month contract or 17.5 hours/week is not in any way practical).

    8. Librarygal30*

      It took me 3 1/2 years to find a full-time job in the field. I had been working as an on-call library assistant in a public library, and ended up being a solo academic librarian. I still have feelers out, so I can move on in a few years, but hopefully, it will be far easier with some experience!
      Best of luck to you on the search process!

  35. Purplerains*

    Allison always gives such great advice and scripts to go along with it. BUT-actually saying very reasonable things to a co-worker about their behavior, etc. can seem intimidating. Has anyone had to have conversations like this with co-workers/bosses/etc.? How did it go? Did the issue get resolved, was their any embarrassment, etc?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Yeah, “be more assertive and calmly speak up” is actually the correct advice most of the time, but when you’re low status, it’s not like it never happens that people get mad at you for not being compliant and pleasant 100% of the time … and other people’s poor opinions can hurt you in a lot of subtle ways. It sucks. But usually on balance it’s best to at least try addressing it – perhaps start out very lightly, almost as a joke and see if that works – if not, you’ll at least have broken your internal barrier and can start taking it more seriously?

    2. dr_silverware*

      I’ve done it, multiple times! It is terrifying. Every single time I sweat like hell. The issue has been resolved every time, though.

      I think there a couple keys to the embarrassment aspect. One is, know what the problem and your desired resolution is, and state those; that way, there’s less floundering. Two is, do it in private; three is, have an easy exit. “Thank you–I’ll see you around later today.”

      In terms of the other person’s embarrassment, it’s likely that they will feel some. But you’re actually enormously in control of that situation. If you can say, “if you do X, that will resolve the problem,” and they do X to resolve the problem to your satisfaction, you can tell them through words and actions that you’re done–no more to feel bad about. In the aftermath of the conversation greet them warmly and treat them normally.

    3. BRR*

      One department has a consultant that comes in occasionally and grabs an open desk (usually next to me) and is on the phone all day. It’s incredibly distracting and one time at the start of the day I said I was doing some pretty intense excel work that I only do a few times a year that needs intense focus and asked that if they were going to need the phone all day would it be possible to grab another desk. They were extremely nice about it and while they couldn’t grab another desk (even though several were open), they moved as far away from me as possible and kept their voice down.

    4. Jules the Third*

      I’ve done it in my newish open office, and it went well. Best: The practical joker said, ‘thanks for telling me you don’t like practical jokes! so often, people just stew, or lose it.’ Neutral: The guy with the noisy desk toy stopped playing with it, though he doesn’t talk to me any more.

      Haven’t quite decided on whether to talk to the super-loud laugher or the Open Office Events team who keep throwing semi-xtian events. They mix them in with some secular ones, so it’s… trickier.

    5. librarianish*

      Yes. Open the door by asking for a time to chat – I think email is fine for this. Then when that (private, closed-door if necessary) time comes, do it quickly. Don’t hedge, just be honest and calm and assertive (wait until you’re calm, if something’s happened recently). Then let it be over, and otherwise treat the person as you would any other coworker/boss. I think the key for me has been to not let any more time pass before saying something than is necessary.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I had one conversation that was to me over the top in terms of embarrassing/difficult/etc.
      After doing that conversation and landing well, I grew less upset.
      However, I never have gone without planning what I will say beforehand. I always plot out how to open and how to close. I think that is a form of worry. I don’t like these conversations to drag on. And I definitely don’t like it when these conversations branch out into every thing that is wrong every where. So I think about how to contain the discussion and stay with the immediate topic. When I am doing the conversation, I will say things like “I think that is greater than the scope of this conversation. We are just talking about X.” If I am wrong about that, they would tell me and I would listen.
      Willingness to listen is huge. Actually in some ways it can help us to shed some discomfort. It’s when we feel the need to drive our own points home, that the tension mounts. Once in a while I could get feed back that X is happening because of Y over there. Where Y was something I did not realize was causing impact on X situation.
      The answer might be to notify me when Y happens. If this is the case, we both walk away from the conversation feeling relieved. I will take care of Y so they don’t have to and they will stop doing X because Y is no longer a problem.
      When I could I worked the conversation around to a general guideline. As an example, “Y has not been happening that long, any time you see something different happening, come tell me about it so you do not have to struggle with the fallout.”

  36. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    So I had the meeting/interview with my old employer this afternoon. It went…even better than I thought possible!

    They’ve gutted the offices (which were straight out of 1982 when I worked there) and it looks like Amazon or Google now, and also got rid of a bunch of toxic people and hired a bunch of more forward-thinking folks to take their place. My old horrible boss is still there, but they apparently spoke to her to say that I was interested in the position and they needed her to be on her “best behavior” (!) with me if I wind up working there again (she would not be my supervisor for this position, though we might have to collaborate). They also said that they were excited about the possibility of me coming back and apologized for “not being ready for you” three years ago. A $10K pay raise from my current job was confirmed, as was the position being salaried instead of hourly. And they even talked about making sure I would get a laptop so I could work from home if needed. Remote access for anyone besides a manager was a total no go three years ago, and now it’s apparently not a big deal at all and something they routinely offer to “recruit and retain talent.” It was literally like interviewing at a completely different company.

    The hiring manager is leaving for an business extended trip to Germany on Sunday, so I may not hear anything for a while. But well, if they offer me the job, I think I’m going to have a pretty hard time turning it down, which was not exactly the feeling I was expecting to have.

    1. SpaceNovice*

      Dang, that’s an amazing transformation to your old workplace! I hope you can move back there soon. It sounds wonderful now.

  37. Goya de la Mancha*

    If your boss tells you to leave and you stay to work, are they able to decline overtime?

    Bertha works at a local school in the office. She is a non-exempt employee who’s day ends at 4pm Monday-Friday. The office HAS to have coverage from 7:30am to 4pm M-F. The problem is that it is only Bertha and her principal.

    On Wednesday, Johnny’s family “forgot” to pick up him, until almost 5:30pm (this happens to more kids and more frequently then you think…) Johnny was sitting outside the office waiting since school had long since ended and there were no staff members on the playground. Bertha’s principal told her to leave at 4pm…on his way into a meeting (meaning NOT supervising Johnny). Bertha did not feel comfortable leaving Johnny alone and waited until Johnny’s parent finally showed up.

    In my head, Bertha should be paid for that 1.5 hours because there is no WAY that a child should be left unaccompanied – whether the principal is “in the building or not”. But her HR is saying that she doesn’t get the money because her principal told her to leave – and she chose to stay. I keep telling her to just leave when they tell her to and let the chips fall where they will, but she doesn’t feel comfortable leaving a kid behind like that and I think the school district is taking advantage of her good nature.

    I get not wanting to pay overtime if Bertha just wanted to come in on the weekends to do some extra tasks and having someone taking advantage of that policy, but I feel like this is a legit reason and the district shouldn’t really have a say as to yes/no. Of course, my feelings and the law don’t always see eye to eye ;)

    1. Lil Fidget*

      What is the school’s policy on leaving children unattended (and if there’s not one, can one be created?). I’d be surprised if there wasn’t guidance on that – and if it’s in the policy that she should stay, she’s covered.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        From what it sounds like, there isn’t one, which is the heart of the problem.

    2. Pollygrammer*

      I think the school is being irresponsible with the kids’ safety, but Bertha probably doesn’t get to make that call.

      If she wants to stay, she can offer to do it as a free agent (still kind of questionable) but she doesn’t really get to say “I disagree with your decision and you’re obligated to pay me.”

    3. Schnoodle*

      They’re being irresponsible with children for sure. But in the end, the law is pretty black and white on this – even if an employee worked “unauthorized” OT, they still have to pay it. How an employer would handle that is pay the OT but discipline the employee.

      In this case, I would not discipline at all. I’m furious they would just leave the child like that! And I’m with Bertha, I don’t even care if they were going to pay me, I’m not going to just leave to read in the news the next day this kid was harmed. There’s bigger things in life than money. Like life itself.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        “I’m not going to just leave to read in the news the next day this kid was harmed. There’s bigger things in life than money. Like life itself.”

        For sure! And that’s Bertha’s take on it, but when this is happening several times a month – the school/district is taking advantage in my eyes and it’s not fair to anyone except the school’s bottom line.

    4. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      HR is right. However, they’re not considering the circumstances, those of an unsupervised child. There needs to be a discussion around how to handle that, because I guarantee that they don’t want it hitting the news.

      2. Goya de la Mancha*

        “…because I guarantee that they don’t want it hitting the news.”

        Agreed, it’s sort of a sticky situation. Most of the parents in this case wouldn’t dare take it to the news because they’re probably already under watch from Child Services for showing up to get their kid 2+ hours late (Bertha is done at 4…school lets out between 3:00-3:30 each day). And for the others, sometimes life happens – parents car breaks down, etc.

    5. Shadowette*

      The key here is whether Bertha’s actions of staying with Johnny fall into her job duties. Was she still “working” or was she on her own time. If it is remotely in her job duties, then she is working and OT must be paid. It’s unauthorized and she can be fired for her actions, but the law is pretty clear that she MUST be paid.
      However if Bertha was on her own time, i.e. doing something that is not related to her job duties, then an argument could be made that she wasn’t “working” and doesn’t have to be paid.
      Either way, a quick call to the state’s labor board or commission can help clarify the situation.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I’m sure Bertha’s thinking that it’s not worth insisting on her legal rights for two hours worth of pay, if it pisses off her boss and gets her fired though.

        1. Goya de la Mancha*

          This.

          Her job is considered a good one for her area, with decent pay and good benefits.

    6. Lindsay J*

      They have to pay her for that time, legally. If someone works, you have to pay them at the appropriate pay rate, even if you did not require them to do do so and even if you did not want them to do so.

      However, they can also discipline or fire her for insubordination for remaining after the boss told her to punch out and leave.

    7. Anonymous Ampersand*

      Holy shit, if I didn’t get paid I’d be raising this as a safeguarding issue. And even if I did after being told to leave.

    8. bb-great*

      Wow, that’s so crappy that the principal would be so cavalier about this. Honestly, I would go to the school board and get a formal policy in place. One that specifies whether an adult in the building but not directly supervising the student is okay, and if not, what should happen–whether that means the meeting gets cancelled, overtime is automatically authorized, etc.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        In talking to Bertha, it doesn’t sound like it’s “her principal”, she makes it sound like higher ups have told ALL the principals to say this to try and get out of paying overtime and that it’s a BIG problem at most of the schools in her area.

    9. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      As Alison has said before. They have to pay you if you worked. However, they can fire you for working unauthorized overtime. The question is, is it work getting fired for 1.5 hours pay?

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        Totally, and life happens for everyone. But 1.5 hours several times a year…adds up *Shrug*

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I think if they fired Bertha, she’d have good reason to bring it to the local news. “X School District refused to pay me OT and fired me for staying after hours to supervise an unattended elementary student (who would have been left entirely alone) until the student’s family arrived. X School District has no policy on this and appears to prefer to leave school children unattended rather than a) create a reasonable policy and b) properly reimburse school personnel who take on that responsibility.”

        I don’t think that would play well…

    10. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Age of the child is pretty important here I think. HS aged kid probably was a non-issue. Under age 11 it is illegal for a child to be left alone unsupervised (at least in my state). A 14-15 year old I can see leaving unsupervised but still not a good policy.
      I also think Bertha should be paid – both on legal and moral grounds.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        Good point on the age thing. I didn’t mention that she works at an elementary school.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Since this happens often, then Bertha needs to ask the principal who should stay with Johnny or Jane or whomever is left.
      I think if she takes it off of being about her pay, and makes it about the school’s responsibility she will get quicker responses. I hate saying that, but it seems to be effective.

    12. AcademiaNut*

      If she works the hours, they *have* to pay her. She cannot waive that right, and if they don’t pay her they can be liable for both the back pay and fines. It doesn’t even need to be her that reports it either.

      Do they have a budget for overtime? It’s possible the principal does not have the authority to approve overtime, or that there are rules that hourly/non-exempt staff are not to work overtime and no pot of money they can go to.

      What the school needs is a policy for unattended children. If there isn’t the money to pay overtime for a staff member to provide free babysitting until the parents decide to show up, then it probably needs to be a well communicated school policy that children need to be picked up by, say, 3:45, and if they aren’t, the police will be called. Or they need to rearrange hours so the principal comes in at 7:30, Bertha comes in a later, and stays later (or vice versa) so they have a longer coverage period.

      Oh, and if Bertha comes in the weekend and does some extra tasks on her own initiative – they have to pay her for that too, same possible consequences.

    13. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I’m gobsmacked that your school district doesn’t have a policy about left behind kids (it is indeed very common). Where I am we have a really clear policy that the principal or vice-principal is in charge of supervision for elementary aged kids especially. As I understand it, if the principal does have some pressing need to leave,they can appoint a “teacher in charge” with no overtime implications because we’re salaried, but leaving a student alone (or with the school secretary since they don’t have the same legal position in terms of student supervision) is right out.

      I know this doesn’t help Bertha and her overtime, but the higher ups need a policy on this yesterday.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        Apparently “no child left behind” only applies to the schools responsibility ;)

        Bertha lives in a different city then I do, so I’m not sure what my own local district has in place!

  38. Jeff*

    How does your employer handle resignations? Do they let people work out their notice period? Do they decide the person should have a shorter notice period than what was offered by the person? What about taking already-approved PTO during the notice period?

    1. Schnoodle*

      It depends if the benefits of them working out their notice outweighs the cons of them staying. Some are toxic employees, some are going to work for the competition for instance so you’d want to cut off access, things like that.

      On the PTO it depends. One company had that if you wanted your PTO paid out, you’d have to work your full 2 week notice, no PTO. There’s some state laws that can impact this.

      In the end, they’re leaving, so personally as HR I really just don’t care. Take the PTO or not, it was already approved and you’re leaving anyway…so…

      It’s nice when an employee sticks around to help you setup for their replacement though so I would encourage that.

    2. Mirth & Merry*

      My employee is actually really great about this, while I wouldn’t necessarily tell them I was job searching, once you give notice they are business as usual and usually do a good job of working on turnover. Only one guy I know of was asked to just stay home but TBH he was a jerk and while he did his work fine, it wasn’t like he was the only one who could do it or was working on a major project. I think us coworkers were happier not having him here. We have had people give a month or more notice when two weeks is plenty for us so I think that says something.

      Already approved PTO I say just take it, might not be ideal for the employer but things happen. Probably be a ‘know your office’ thing though.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      Very long notice periods are common in my field (academic/technical/research). I don’t know of any case where someone hasn’t worked out that period. They generally can use up vacation time, but do need to be present on the official last day of work to do the formal exit paperwork.

      It’s also rare for people to be fired and escorted out. Typically, letting someone go would be a matter of deciding not to renew their contract, and they would be informed of that a couple of months in advance. (Non-US: we all have legally binding contracts).

  39. Anon for now*

    I think it would be great if candidates could ask in interviews, “How does the company handle complaints of harassment or discrimination in the workplace?”

    I’ve never heard of this being an acceptable question to ask in an interview, but I think a lot of candidates would want to know! I get the initial gut feeling that it would rub interviewers the wrong way, but it seems like something interviewers should be able to answer. Like, if they don’t know the answer to the question or seemed uncomfortable about answering, that would be a huge red flag to me.

    Has anyone here ever asked a question like that? If you are a hiring manager, how would you take a question like that? Could you answer it? Would you see a question like that as somehow adversarial or that the candidate may be a “troublemaker” ?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I wouldn’t ask that explicitly, because yes it sounds like I’m coming in expecting trouble, but I might ask to see the employee handbook or whatever, and I’d look at that section. I might also ask to meet the HR department and see how they seem. Nothing they tell you in person or on paper is really a guarantee of how they’d actually act in a specific circumstance anyway, so it’s just guesswork.

    2. BenAdminGeek*

      I would feel it’s very adversarial. It’s not something where it can sound like anything except “I’m looking for trouble” even though I know it’s not meant to be. I’d be very uncomfortable if you asked it, and I know my company handles those swiftly and well.

      I think you can talk about cultures of accountability, how conflict in the workplace is usually resolved, etc. That can give you an idea.

    3. bb-great*

      Yeah, I don’t think you can say it in those terms without sounding adversarial. I think it could make someone uncomfortable and catch them off guard even if the company was good about those things. Maybe because it assumes the existence of such complaints? Also, there’s nuance there–not all complaints are equally valid and will or should be dealt with the same way. And it’s one of those questions where the “right answer” is so obvious that asking it won’t necessarily tell you much. I agree that asking about how conflict gets resolved is probably a better way to get at what you’re asking. “Conflict” is much less loaded than “harassment or discrimination,” although the former can encompass the latter.

    4. Eye of Sauron*

      I think the only way to handle this question is for the interviewee to ask about the company ethics and code of conduct policies, if they have one and how it works.

      This allows for a general discussion and would probably open the door for the interviewer to let them know how things are reported, investigated, etc. By including ethics it shows that the interviewee is concerned about integrity and would likely not raise as many eyebrows as the way you phrased your question.

      FTR, I would be on alert if I got your questions from a candidate and would ask follow up questions to try and suss out what was behind the questions. If I got a question on ethics and code of conduct I’d be curious, but it wouldn’t raise any red flags.

  40. Hawkeye Forever*

    When you’re the new person at a job, do you wait to be shown how to do something or do you go ahead and try it out on your own before being told how to do it? I am the type that is just trying to soak up all the information and take notes and ask questions before diving in. I’m training someone new (not their manager though) and they are doing the opposite and started doing things without being told to/shown how to. Some of the stuff was done wrong and we had to go back and fix it which was time that could have been avoided. I’m not sure if this is just a personal thing or if people are being told to act this way to show initiative?

    1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I think it depends on the person. Who is telling them to do things without showing them how to do it first? Can you just tell the new hire to check in with you first before trying out a new task?

      1. Hawkeye Forever*

        None of us told them to do any extra tasks. Eventually these will be their duties and that was mentioned in passing but also that we needed to give them training on it on a future date because the main focus was on other tasks that were more time sensitive. They started working on the other tasks during a lunch break when we thought they were on lunch.

        1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

          Okay, then yes, you need to check in with this person. Not just about jumping ahead on tasks, but also working through lunch (unless that’s standard at your office?). TiffIf and The Ginger Ginger have some good ideas/scripts/things to consider.

        2. The Ginger Ginger*

          Oof. Yeah. This might be time for the talk that goes – “it’s awesome that you’re so eager to get started on all your responsibilities, but we don’t want you working through lunch or jumping into the deep end on these tasks without any training. We’ve got time scheduled to teach you this process, but in the mean time, please ask one of your trainers or manager if you have extra time or want to work on something we haven’t reviewed yet.” And maybe walk through the errors that sprung up with the way they did the process while you’re training them on the what they actually should have done.

    2. TiffIf*

      It could be either and I’m not sure it matters where it comes from. I have been known to dig in and try to learn something without being formally trained just because I wanted to know and understand–but to forestall such issues in the future, perhaps say to the employee something along the lines of “its great that you’re so interested in figuring out things, but for right now, please limit your explorations to x, y, z, until we can go over how a, b, and c are supposed to be done” and point them to an area where they can explore but if they make a mistake it won’t cause issues for other workers or clients–in developer terms a sandbox area, but if that’s not something you have, it might be worth creating some training only docs/data/whatever they you can point them to so they can learn without messing things up.

      It also might be a sign that the formal training is too slow and they’re absorbing everything you are teaching them and are getting bored with the pace. If you get a sense that they really are up to speed on everything you’ve taught them, then load them up a bit more.

      If they don’t seem to be picking up what you’ve been training them on and they’re messing about where they shouldn’t be, then that may require a firmer talk along the lines of “you need to complete the training exercises/assignments to X level before you start exploring. If you’re not understanding the assignment or not understanding the feedback you’re receiving, please ask. At this point, please don’t touch areas A, B, or C.”

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      Did they sort of go off half-cocked, or is it that the training sequence maybe wasn’t prioritized correctly? As in, you trained them on A and C first, but B is their primary job responsibility, so they felt like they HAD to jump into that without training. And how much time are you able to devote to training them? Are they sitting on their hands for most of the day because they don’t have training to do much, and you have other commitments you’re trying to meet?

      Some of this may also come down to discussion of the role they were hired for or what was said when they interviewed. I just accepted a role where it was made very clear to me that I needed to hit the ground running, dive in, and learn for myself. If I’d been told those things, then had someone come to me and told me I needed to wait for training I would have been very surprised and confused.

      Ultimately, if none of those things are factors – they’re being onboarded fast and in the right order, they don’t have a ton of down time without tasks/guidance, and the role isn’t one where they’re expected to figure it out on their own, you may want to talk with the trainee about how you want them approach new tasks (that they haven’t been trained on) going forward. And if it stays a problem, loop in your manager.

      Myself, I actually usually ask to be shown, which is kind of neither of your options. It’s taking more initiative than just waiting to be shown something, but it’s also not wading into things with no information and potentially messing it up. If your trainee is causing problems, you don’t necessarily have to tell them to wait (which may be hard if their personality is to take initiative), but you could certainly request that they ask for a quick overview/rundown before jumping into things they haven’t been trained in.

      And also, if you had to make corrections for your trainee, did you walk the trainee through the errors, the corrections, and the why of it? Seeing the real world impact is a great way to learn to never make the same mistake again.

  41. Tasslehoff Burrfoot (formerly Buffy Summers)*

    I have another questions – I have a direct report that I’m thinking of talking to about her absences. She’s calling in sick a lot. She’s missed 9 days over the last three months and that seems excessive to me (maybe I’m way off base here -if so tell me that too!). The reason is always that she’s sick, so that makes it harder to navigate, but I need her to be here. Should I say anything or am I in the wrong?

    1. KatieKate*

      Does she have sick days to use? Is she getting her work done? I don’t think 9 days over 3 months is excessive, and unless it’s causing a problem (others having to pick up the slack, lack of coverage) I don’t think you should say anything

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah, if the company offers me a set amount of sick leave, and I’m within that range, it’s a little hard to hear there’s a “secret” amount that you “actually” can take. But Alison did have scripts to address people with chronic absentee ism (wouldn’t say nine days in three months is that though – I’d say if it was a day most weeks I’d be thinking about this).

        1. Lindsay J*

          I mean 9 days in 3 months is one day a week 3 weeks out of every 4. I would categorize that as a day most weeks.

      2. anony*

        All of this. If she has time to use and the work is getting done, it’s basically going to sound like you’re saying “You’re following the rules and doing a good job, but I personally feel like you should be sick less.” If it is actually causing a problem that’s a different story.

      3. mediumofballpoint*

        Seconded. If she has the days to use, she should get to use them if she’s not causing a major disruption. Some people just have crappy health or chronic illnesses and there isn’t much to be done about that.

      4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        The amount of time she has available to her is really key here, along with the consequences if she goes over it.

        For example, my job gives us 10 sick days a year. Callouts are by and large acceptable as long as you have the time, but if you run over, sick time goes unpaid and results in formal discipline. If I used 9 of them in 3 months, my boss would probably pull me aside — but not to say “hey you’re being a problem,’ (unless I did it during tax season, in which case I’d be in protective custody anyway because the rest of my team would try to kill me) but rather ‘hey, you’ve only got 1 day left for the rest of the year, then you’re going to start getting progressive discipline for additional callouts, do we need to start an FMLA process for you?”

    2. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      FWIW, I think most employers here in my Scandinavian country have rules in place that any employee with more than 5-6 separate sick periods in a year should go through a rehab investigation to see if there’s something other than rotten luck causing the absences.

      9 sick days in 3 months definitely warrant a conversation with your employee. But in a friendly manner? Maybe she’s just had bad luck? Or sick kids? Or is getting tested to see if there’s a more serious cause for her illnesses.

    3. GRA*

      Considering this has been the sickest winter for everyone I know in years – averaging 3 days/month January-March doesn’t seem like so much. The flu hit hard, followed by norovirus, in New England this year, and most people I know have gotten really sick more than once. If the pattern continues, I might say something, but I’d also take into account that we’re just finally wrapping up winter in most areas.

    4. Lindsay J*

      Has it been in patches, or has it been 9 separate times?

      Like, if it was 4 days one month, and 5 days a couple months later, I wouldn’t think it was a big deal.

      If it was 1 day 9 times, I would be looking at patterns. Is it every Thursday of the month except the first Thursday or something? In that case I would be wondering if she needed a flex schedule and was trying to create her own rather than asking about it. Though, even then, I guess I would probably keep my nose out of it. For all I know it could be a standing therapy or chemo treatment that keeps her wiped out the rest of the day.

      I might mention it to HR to see if they want to talk to her about FMLA or intermittent FMLA. But if she’s sick, she’s sick, and talking to her about it isn’t going to make her be less sick.

    5. The Other Thursday Next*

      Are you in the US? If so (and your company is large enough) then I would suggest to her that she needs to apply for intermittent FMLA. That way her job is protected if she truly has a chronic health issue. For me, 9 days in 3 months is excessive. I had to do the same thing very recently with one of my employees. So I suggested FMLA if the absences were due to illness (hers or others), but if they’re not then she needs to abide by the attendance policy. I framed it as it puts additional burdens on her teammates when she is out unexpectedly.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        I think if I were told that actually taking the sick days that were part of my compensation package was unacceptable, and that I should be taking unpaid time off instead, I’d be pretty angry, and wondering what other illogical secret rules I was going to be punished for.

        9 days in three months is on the high end of typical sick use, but doesn’t mean it’s being abused. She may be undergoing treatment for something, and not realize that she has to explicitly justify this to her manager to avoid penalty. She might have just had bad luck this year, or just not have figured out that she’s supposed to come in when she’s sick unless she’s incapacitated.

        But if the sick leave is part of her compensation package, and she needs it, and is otherwise a competent and hard working employee, I don’t think you should chastise her for it. If flexible work hours, or working from home when mildly ill are possible in the job, you could have a conversation about that. And if she is close to running out of sick leave, you can address that as well – does she need FMLA, for example, or can she take unpaid time off, or will she be fired if she’s absent after running through her sick leave.

    6. WellRed*

      It’s a lot but it’s been a rough winter for a lot of people. I was sick for three weeks (in and out and working from home). I’d factor that in.

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      I was out for a week with bronchitis and a week with the flu since January. Trust me I would have rather been at work than where I was. So, I’ve used at least that much this year so far.

      I think the only real question is: What is the impact on her work and her coworkers? You say you need her at her job, why? Does she work in a public service position? I’d take a very hard look at impact (and patterns) before I said anything.

      Also, as I know Allison has observed, sometimes sick leave use is something people focus on when there is really a deeper performance issue at play that might be better addressed directly.

  42. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    So my second interview ended up being scheduled on this coming Monday. So I’ve taken the day off. I’m equal parts excited and apprehensive. I can do the job and am excited to get out of my current position.

    And even though it’s lousy management and starting to border on toxic atmosphere at my current job…..I’m slightly freaking out at the prospect of leaving. There’s a few coworkers that I’m REALLY going to miss.

    1. Emily S.*

      Good luck on your interview!

      I get that about missing people. Leaving could be bittersweet. You just have to do what’s best for you. And try to stay in touch with those people, as much as you can.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Thanks!

        I’ve been here five years and nothing has changed. There’s no track (forward or sideways) for me. I’m also making a couple grand under market rate – and have been told that’s what the company pays for my position so there’s no wiggle room for getting more. It is beyond time for me to leave, I know this. It just sucks when the graduation goggles start kicking in.

  43. Probably Nerdy*

    What would be the social “expiration date” of someone agreeing to serve as a professional reference? Like if someone agreed to be a reference for me in Q4 of 2015, can I still use them now?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I don’t see why not, but I’d shoot them a quick email/message and say hi and let them know that you are giving their name.

  44. Topless Muffin Stump*

    I need some advice on how to help a staff member who is suffering from burnout.

    The background: We’ve been understaffed for about 3 years (2 departures for retirement, 1 for stress). I was finally allowed to refill a vacant position, but even after we refill the position, some of the same conditions will persist. The staff members handle production support, maintenance and some major project assignments. I went from 7 people to 4 in this area over the last 3 years, but only some of the work has gone away with the positions.

    The staff member and I have been talking about their burnout for the last few months. They came to me yesterday and we had an honest conversation about what was leading to the feelings of burnout. They don’t want to leave (and I don’t want them to either, they’re a great employee). I offered 2 weeks of vacation, starting next Monday.

    I’ve pulled back work to reduce the stress on this employee already. I’m feeling like I need to restructure the way we do work, because if one person is feeling the stress, they probably all are (the people who work for me are super nice and don’t always advocate for their own needs).

    HR isn’t helpful, unfortunately, so I don’t have much support from them on other options to fix (or lessen) the impact of being understaffed. I also don’t have much support for a) hiring more people or b) stopping the work we’re doing.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Commiseration? thanks all.

    1. Ali G*

      I’ve been there. Do you have any leeway for a “retreat”-like event? It doesn’t have to be a huge thing, just a day, out of the office, where you can take a step back from the daily grind and look at the overall function of the team, prioritize and get their real feedback and ideas on how to move forward with limited resources. A nice lunch or a few drinks at the end of the day is a nice treat (though some folks won’t want to do stuff outside of work and that’s ok).
      I have found this immensely helpful both as a manager and an employee when things get really stressful. It helps the team feel like they have some control over their work life.

    2. fposte*

      Love the username, feel you on the problem. I think you made a good move on the immediate vacation, and you’re right that it’s likely to be more than her. Are you doing one on ones with your staff? That’s a topic you could raise, in full transparency about your limitations but with clarity on what you can offer.

      And I say this as a bit of a hypocrite in this area myself, but I think when it comes to things like time off it might help for you to model good practice–IOW, if you never take time off, it makes it seem like nobody should take time off.

      And I also think that it’s considering at least proposing how the department is, in fact, going to do fewer projects in future. It’s going to have to be figured out if you all quit; might as well find something slightly less dire that people could actually stay for.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      I’d say some burnout is inevitable, but I’m trying to manage mine by: 1) mixing up my role now that I’ve been here six years, which is definitely when it starts to get old and dull – I didn’t have this issue three years ago even though I was overworked then. Try to move the person into a different role if you can to keep things fresh and interesting. 2) yes taking vacations, you’ve got that – but can you offer work from home? That would make a big difference to me, but it’s not possible here, I instead had to take meetings/site visits off-site as much as possible. Also, we got a new fresh young enthusiastic person in our department and I’ve been surprised how much that’s helped.

    4. mrs_helm*

      You went from 7 to 4 people, but no change in amount of work. This is like the people who write in with being given extra tasks…what did you move to the bottom of the pile? How did you reprioritize the work and change the deadlines? And does your staff really buy into those changes, or are they trying to keep up the same quantity and quality of the 7, with only 4?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I’d seriously consider going to my boss and letting her know, ” Our current plan is not sustainable. We have one person needing time off and I am sure more will follow suit. I fully expect to see people resign in the near future if this situation does not change.”

      Meanwhile, I would be digging around trying to find ways to streamline processes, cut out double handling and add clarity where ever possible. If you have done this already, then you should include this in your conversation with the boss. “Task X used to be a four person job, taking 3 days. I have it down to two people doing it in two days. Similarly with Task Y. That was five people for seven days, now three can manage in five days. I cannot make things more streamlined than they already are.”

      1. AcademiaNut*

        I agree. There’s no way you can have four people do the work of seven on a long term basis (three years!), keep up the productivity and not have people burn out. You’ve already lost one person to stress. Even with a vacation, even if they like you and the job, it will get too much and you’ll lose more people.

        So yes, the only truly effective thing you can do is push back to the higher ups, ask how they want to prioritize the tasks and hold firm, giving your employees manageable tasks. Otherwise the employees you have will work themselves into having to quit or break down, and you’ll end up with no-one.

    6. OhBehave*

      I’m glad to hear that you are doing all you can for your employee. Those two weeks may do the trick. But this sounds like a long-term issue.
      I would take a frank look at the workload for all. Prioritize the tasks. If everyone does the same things, is there someone who absolutely LOVES making the spouts on the pots and another who LOVES painting the pots? If it’s possible to redistribute the types of jobs, that may help. We all have parts of our jobs that are more enjoyable than others.
      I’m not saying to let things slide, but if all are busting their tushes to get things done, that’s a problem. HR isn’t seeing this as a staffing issue because things are still getting done on time. What has your boss had to say about this?
      Sometimes it’s a boost just to be heard. If you can have a team meeting and lay the cards on the table, you may get some honest feedback. Keep in mind that your team may be concerned about the financial stability of the company if they refuse to hire more people. Sometimes that’s indicative of money troubles.

  45. Ann O. Nymous*

    I’ve worked in an admin/multi-responsibility role at my org for a couple of years now – basically, my job requires a lot of communication/collaboration with my direct supervisor and other people in our small office. My direct supervisor, however, is out quite a bit (we have very generous PTO and she also frequently has doctor’s appts and other out-of-office errands). And while she’ll tell me 90% of the time when she’s going to be out on preplanned PTO or when she’s leaving the office early for the day, a lot of times she a) won’t email/call me when she’s out sick, which happens relatively often and b) will get weird when I ask her if she knows when she’ll be back from a lunch/errand/etc. She treats me like I’m being super nosy, but the fact is that my job relies a lot on her being here, and other coworkers/outside contacts often rely on me when she’s not here and look to me to find out where she is or when she’ll be back. We’ve even been at conferences we’ve hosted, and she’s literally disappeared for two hours, and VIPs are coming up to me like “Where’s [boss]?” and I have to be like, “I literally have no idea.”

    I’ve never had a job where a supervisor has been this cagey and defensive about where she is and when she’s out. She’s above me, and she has the right to go get her nails done in the middle of the day for all I care, but it just really throws me through a loop when she ghosts on me. I know it frustrates other coworkers too, and even sometimes her direct supervisors, when no one knows where she is. I’m her assistant! Why won’t she keep me in the loop?

    Does anyone else have experience with this? I have a lot of interpersonal issues with my boss that are for another post but she’s out sick again today and told her boss, but not me.

    1. Reba*

      Have you talked about this with her, like identifying the pattern and what it means for you (not like, each instance of absence)? Like, do you think you could say something like “I get the sense that you don’t like sharing when you’re going to be out of the office. I want to assure you that I’m not being nosy, but I ask because a lot of my work depends on you being here, like Function P and Function Q. Can we work out a system to communicate better on this?”

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      Have you already tried phrasing it like, “If [VIP] stops by today and asks for you, what should I tell them?”
      But again, that only works if you know she’s going to be out, which is info she often doesn’t provide to you. She’s being weirdly paranoid about this.

      1. Seriously?*

        You could try asking her for a stock answer. Tell her that people frequently come looking for her when she is out and ask what she would like you to tell them/ what you should do if you don’t know when she will be back.

        1. Eye of Sauron*

          I think this is the best answer.

          “Boss, I was wondering if there is a particular message you wanted me to give when when folks are looking for you? Obviously I’m not asking to know where you are at all hours of the day, so I was wondering if there was a certain way you wanted me to handle these inquiries for you. If I’m not sure where you are would you like me to have the person text you or call you or something else”

      2. foolofgrace*

        This. You could make it a general inquiry — “I was put on the spot last week by X who was looking for you and I didn’t know what to say. Can we come up with something going forward so I know when to expect you back? Also, I don’t know that it’s so important that you know *where* she is. Not your business. But it is important to know when she’ll be back. Good luck.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have handled this by saying, “When people call/ask for you, what do you want me to tell them?”

      The problem with this question is sometimes the boss will tell you to say something you know is an out-and-out lie.
      But for the most part this question worked for me.

  46. Getting My Side Gig On*

    So I am an experienced interviewer, hiring manager, HR professional, etc. I have always worked on the side helping people to update or improve their resume and cover letter and practice for interviews. I am thinking I want to turn this into a paying side job. I really enjoy the work but it also takes time and is something many people charge lots of money to do. I know this is a service that is already out there but from everything I have seen and heard, it is ridiculously overpriced and often not from knowledgeable people.

    I am still trying to figure out some of the logistics around it and wondered if I could poll the audience ;-)

    A quick description – I would offer services in resume, cover letter, and/or LinkedIn profile review and rewrite; interview practice and coaching; and be a go-to for questions, negotiation help, and general hand holding. A lot of times I find people looking for work just need a sounding board and the ear of someone that has regularly been on the other side of the table. I am thinking a menu of services to offer from above where people could purchase a package that covers everything or just select a few items that they need.

    1. Is this something you would be interested in and willing to pay for?
    2. If yes to above, what would you be willing to pay?
    3. Any other thoughts about the idea? I’m open to any and all ideas and criticisms.

    THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! in advance

    1. Ali G*

      Do you have any interest/skills in career counseling? I think a lot of the criticisms from the typical “job help” services are that the service is for scoring one particular job, and that’s not very helpful when a job search takes a while, or when someone is trying to change careers, etc. I think if you can look at it as a holistic career coaching with job search services you might have more luck.
      Personally I was just having this conversation with a colleague, because this is me right now. I am trying to pivot from technical lead/expert to non-profit administration/development. It’s hard because I know I will have to take lower level jobs (I’ve been a director for both for and non-profit for the last ~10 years) and I am competing against people who may have less overall experience, but have more experience in some critical areas that I do not. So I would definitely be interested in someone that could help me not only with job specific assistance, but a broader look at my career and strategies for getting where I want to be.
      What to pay? Not sure – I think it would depend on how much time you take with each client. Maybe come up with an hourly rate and decide how much time you would need for each service you provide and start from there?

    2. Oxford Coma*

      I would want to know your field of experience/background first. A resume “expert” called me a job hopper because she didn’t understand that my field tends toward short-term contract positions. If you spent 20 years doing HR for something like Big Law or F500 (or a similarly conservative field), I won’t think you understand my field well enough to help me.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah I volunteer to help people with jobsearching skills in a local nonprofit, and I’m surprised how little I know about fields like education and nursing where there are more structured norms. I thought ten years in a range of office environments would be useful, and sometimes it is, but things are quite field specific.

      2. Getting My Side Gig On*

        That makes total sense. My background is in human resources and operations for small companies. The companies have ranged in size from 10 – 250 employees and are mostly in the construction, engineering, and non-profit industries. I also have experience in catering/restaurants, dog training, and real estate companies as an independent consultant for the businesses. Especially at first, I would target people that were in one of the industries where I have the most experience. As you noted, there is a big difference and you have to know the market!

    3. Ashk434*

      I think this is a great idea! I’m cheap so I won’t name a price. I would just do some quick searches on the internet for that.

    4. FD*

      I considered doing this but decided there wasn’t enough money in it at any but the highest level (e.g. C-level execs).

      Why?

      1. Most people will not pay more than $100-$150 at most for a resume based on what I looked into. (Remember that the last time Alison offered to review resumes, it was at $99/each. That was for a review not a full write–but think about what that means when someone who is frankly as influential as Alison is charging at that rate.) That means you need a lot of clients to make a decent side income.

      2. People who most want the service often can’t pay well. For example, folks who have been out of work for a while, returning stay at home parents, etc., have the highest desire for the service but many won’t be able to pay much.

      3. There are highly paid resume services offering resumes to C-level execs, but that market requires connections, influence, and reputation that I didn’t have.

      Overall, it’s a great service to offer pro bono but when I looked into it, I concluded it wasn’t a great business idea.

      1. FD*

        Oh also, there’s not that much room to grow. An ideal side business lets you get repeat customers who will scale up. For example, let’s say you do a graphic design gig. The first time, your client hires you to make a simple placecard. You do well, and they hire you again to make a brochure. Then, again to design a whole package for an event.

        With a resume service, if you do your job well, they don’t come back! (Well, at least not for a few years.) And if they do, they probably aren’t buying more services.

        1. Hey Nony Nony*

          Thank you. This is really useful feedback and I share all of the same concerns you stated. My thought for return customers was actually not a repeat client but them referring friends, family, etc and building it that way. Maybe it is better as a non-profit idea though. Offering services to those that need it most but can’t afford to pay. I’m nite totally against that idea.

          1. FD*

            This is true, but this still limits your potential pool.

            Let’s say you want to make $1,000 / month, and you’re charging $100. You need 10 customers per month. A rule of thumb suggests that for every new customer you want to gain, you need to contact ten prospects.

            Let’s say that you can generally get 1 referral per month. That means you still need to get 9 customers, or contact about 90 prospects per month to meet that goal.

            If we assume that the average resume takes about 3 hours to write including an initial meeting and that one prospect takes about 15 minutes to contact, you’d be spending more than 50 hours per month on the side gig. (30 hours resume writing, 22.5 hours prospecting) And you probably can’t increase your referral rate that much more to reduce the number of prospecting hours, because each client has a limited number of people they know well, who would want the service, and who can pay.

    5. ronda*

      when i was laid off the company offered this kind of stuff thru a large firm that does it (paid by the company that laid me off, which was apparently how this firm worked rather than individual job seekers hiring them).

      the services are helpful for folks who have been out of the job market for a while, but most of the stuff they told you was also available for free at a local church’s job search services outreach program. And with my 2nd unemployment, my local unemployment office made me attend a class with much of the same info.

      I am not sure what your local area job market and services are like, but you might take a look at what is on offer out there and how you would be different from it.

  47. H*

    This time next week I will be at a second-round interview for a position I’m pretty excited about. Aside from the tips Alison has given in the past (recognize what the role of the second round is, don’t fail to prepare, wear different clothes—which is hard for me since I am also returning from maternity leave and nothing fits, hopefully temporarily, so hello Clothes Mentor!), does anyone have any insight into the kind of questions they’ve been asked, especially weird questions, how to make sure you’re being consistent when you’re interviewing with potential boss for the second time + her boss for the first time? I was stumped by a question in the first round which was not good, so I want to cover my bases this time!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Did you get Alison’s free guide? The link is waaaay up and on the left side of the screen. “How to prepare for an interview”. You really can’t prepare for the off the wall questions or even the weird questions. What you can do is get the basics in place and have a firm handle on that much.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Right side, not left. I did this on my driving test, too. “Go right” he said. I went left. I got my license because I actually signaled left.

  48. WFH*

    My day was thrown off this morning by a phone call from my manager after I put in for time off this summer. I’d requested to work from home in on a particular day before I’m leaving for an out of state wedding – to just work for a half day until late morning.

    Many people at my work work from home on occasion when warranted, or even regularly (once a week or so if they don’t live close to the office, things like that). I’ve worked from home quite a few times now, each time unplanned (car issues, kid issues, weather issues, etc).

    This was the first time I actually requested in advance to work from home on a particular day and my manager kind balked, and gave me a mini lecture on how you do have to actually work, uninterrupted, from home when you’re working from home and it’s “not a euphemism.” And asked me what kind of laptop I have and if I’m set up to work from home. Again, I’ve worked from home multiple times, and I’ve been with this company for two years, so I thought I had set up a foundation for being trustworthy enough to do so.

    I think part of it was she thought I was leaving to go to the airport immediately after my work day would end, which was not the case. She did approve the working from home after she realized that. But I didn’t think I had to specify in my request when my flight was since again, I thought I was trustworthy enough to manage my own time and give myself a good safety cushion to get ready to leave.

    So not a huge deal, but my day has been thrown and I can’t stop thinking about it!

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Actually my supervisors here do hate to mix up conversations about work from home with vacations. Also my office has this kind of BS policy where WFH isn’t strictly above board so if you ask permission explicitly they’d say no, but still most people do it to some extent. That might not be helpful to you but it’s my two cents, hopefully others can chime in.

      1. WFH*

        That IS helpful – I’ve noticed a bit of that here as well. A lot of people do it, often, but there is not an explicit policy about it or guidelines as to how often it’s allowed. Just a general feeling that after you’ve worked here for awhile and put in your dues you can be trusted to do it when warranted.

    2. Dorrie*

      Same thing happened to me. Everyone else could basically wake up in the morning and suddenly decide they were working from home and that was cool. But when I asked permission in advance and I was treated like I was trying to get away with something. At least now you know where you stand with your boss.

  49. slipjack*

    How do you all deal with people who don’t listen well?

    I vented briefly in last week’s open thread about a very frustrating coworker who doesn’t listen well and assumes worst intentions. I’d like to get better at asserting myself in these situations, because her actions have caught me off guard several times. (Once was complaining about the really stupid thing I wanted to do to the executive director, which was extremely stressful and frustrating because I wanted to do something completely different.)

    Does anyone have scripts for this kind of thing? I’ve tried to start active listening with her, so she feels less defensive, which helps in the moment but then she’ll misunderstand me again and get really upset.

    1. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      The thing is, she is going to continue to forget and then get upset — there are no magic words to make that stop — but that’s her problem. You need to make sure that her inability to retain information doesn’t become your problem. Try to switch to written communication as much as possible — you can spin to as a way to help her remember but mostly it’s to cover yourself when she inevitably forgets. I would follow up face-to-face and phone conversations with a friendly email summarizing the details. “Hey Lucy Whitmore, this is just a follow up to our conversation about the birthday cakes. We should order 150 more than last year because they were more popular than we planned and we ran short. Please contact Henry before the 9th to schedule the tasting. I’ll send you an Outlook reminder. Thanks!” Then when she forgets and accuses you of not telling her, you can refer her to the email. Each and every time. But really you just need to be resigned to the fact that she won’t change.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “If you don’t understand something, please come and ask me about it rather than making assumptions.”

      “Please make sure you have an accurate understanding of what I am saying before you approach the executive director or other people.”

      “Please do not misquote me to others.”

      “Some how there seems to be several misunderstandings between us in the past. What do you think we should do to fix it?”

  50. Ali G*

    Anyone use Salesforce? Particularly for non-profit work?
    I am applying for various communications/development support roles and a lot of the job requirements are looking for Salesforce (or other CRM) proficiency.
    I am currently doing online training to develop these skills, but I am curious how it works in practice.
    If anyone can share your experiences with these types of services, especially for non-profits (because they seem to be very focused for increasing sales) I would appreciate it!
    Oh, also a question – if your company doesn’t have a Salesforce Administrator on staff, does your subscription cover access to one?
    Thanks!

    1. Grief Bacon*

      I’m a Salesforce administrator at a non-profit! Generally speaking, most non-profits tend to use Salesforce/CRMs for donor or volunteer management. The level of experience you’ll actually need will really depend a lot on the size of the organization, how technologically capable they are in general, how long they’ve been using a system, etc. In other words, if the organization doesn’t have many/any CRM experts, you can likely get away with not having formal experience and picking up the skills on the job (I say this from experience!). But, if the organization has been using Raiser’s Edge for years and has an on-site guru, you’re going to have a harder time getting the job without the formal experience. But CRM’s are typically used in non-profits to increase “sales”, ie donations. They might not use that language, but that’s essentially what it is.

      Out of curiosity, what online training tools are you using to develop your skills?

      1. Ali G*

        Thanks! This is helpful. Salesforce actually has a complete online program called “Trailhead” (https://trailhead.salesforce.com/en/home).
        They have a bunch of modules and tracks you can take and earn “badges.” The badge thing is a little silly, but so far they have been helpful. It’s a combo of infgraphs, video and reading, and then at the end there is a quiz and/or an exercise you have to pass to move on. They have a few geared to non-profits that I will take once I get the basics down.
        I don’t think I will get a formal certificate or anything (you have to do a lot more to get that – as you prob know!), but hopefully I will be able to show I know how it works enough to formalize my skills on the job.

    2. BRR*

      I work in development and don’t use Salesforce. For support roles I would guess that they are focused on data entry and data management.

      There is almost always one person in charge of the database. It would usually be called something other than Salesforce Administrator.

    3. bookie85*

      Salesforce has a version for nonprofits specifically, their Nonprofit Success Pack that is geared more towards being a CRM than being for sales. That is what the org I work for uses. We do have a few Salesforce Admins on staff that work on Salesforce full time and then we hire contractors for bigger specialized projects when we need them, but no Salesforce as a company doesn’t provide us support.

  51. Camellia*

    I received a compliment this week – a rather odd one, but one nonetheless.

    As the analyst on a project, the project manager and I met to go over status updates on the to-do list. In the middle of a sentence he stopped and said, “Camellia, I am glad that you are you!”

    I just kind of blinked and said, “Thanks!”, and he continued what he was saying before.

    1. fposte*

      I think his meaning is pretty clear, though–you’re reliable and kickass at what you do. So go you!

  52. Green Goose*

    Looking for a better way to say “does this make sense?” after I give an answer to a question either in person or by email. I realized that it can come across a bit condescendingly – it might imply that they don’t understand the concept instead of an opening for clarifying questions. I was thinking about changing it to “do you have any follow-up questions about my answer?”

    Let me know what term(s) you all use.

    1. Camellia*

      I say or write, “Please let me know if that is clear as mud!” or, for questions, I keep it simple with “Please let me know if you have any questions.”

    2. Lily*

      “Hopefully that answers your question, but feel free to let me know if you’d like me to clarify any of the above.”

    3. BuffaLove*

      If it’s something that’s actually convoluted or if I get a little long-winded, I usually go with “Hope this makes sense – let me know if you have any questions.” Otherwise, just “Let me know if you have any questions.”

    4. R2D2*

      “Let me know if you have any questions or require additional information.”
      Or, if it’s a less formal email, “I hope that makes sense.”

    5. Louise*

      “Let me know if any of that doesn’t make sense” or “happy to answer any questions” are my go to when I’m not sure how clear I’ve been.

    6. Someone else*

      Let me know if you have additional questions.
      Let me know if you need additional guidance.
      Let me know if I can clarify any of the above.
      Let me know if you need additional info.
      Let me know if that doesn’t make sense? (this one can be good since you’re assuming they do understand, but giving the opening if they don’t,and framing it as a question instead of a statement puts the presumed-puzzlement on yourself not them)

  53. Daria from Cleveland*

    What would make you say yes to an informational interview with a stranger/acquaintance who shares your alum status or is a 2nd connection on LinkedIn? If you are mid- or a senior-level professional, would you take 10 minutes to do this? I am about to embark on an info interview blitz to scope out a new (to me) industry that looks really exciting from the outside, but I don’t want to commit any professional faux pas in asking to chat with people.

    1. stej*

      If the request is reasonable and the requester seems interesting, people are far more willing to do informational interviews than you might think. Give them a well-written, thoughtful request with an explanation of what you’re interested in and some evidence that you’ve done some research and legwork on your own, and you’re more likely to find some responses. Send out a bunch and filter through what you get back. Good luck!

    2. Tuxedo Cat*

      For me, I want someone who took the time to write a thoughtful letter. Introduce yourself, explain why you are contacting me, and briefly describe what it is you’re interested in. It doesn’t sound like you’re going to do this, but I occasionally get these and it’s clear the person wants a job or insight on hiring processes where I work. Those get canned immediately.

    4. FD*

      Ideally, does the person come with a clear, simple request and have some idea of what they want.

      Example,

      “I’m an alum from [University], and I saw that you’re currently working in [field]. I was hoping you might be willing to talk for 15 minutes on the phone about your field. I’m most interested in learning a little bit more about the most common career paths and what I should expect when getting into the field. Would you be interested, and would any of these times work: [list some times].”

      This is appealing because it’s clear that you know what you want to know and are less likely to waste their time, and it doesn’t sound like you’re trying to get them to interview you sneakily. It also lets them just say yes or no.

  54. Q*

    I’ve found that when I read the titles here I automatically have a short response in my head, even before reading the letter! So I decided to start writing them down. Maybe I’ll start my own blog called Bad Advice From Not a Manager Anymore.

    My firm wants us to go on a three-day camping trip
    That sounds horrible

    Is this a real job offer?
    Probably not

    My boss won’t stop posting fake news and false memes on our company Facebook
    He’s a dumb ass

    Am I being ageist toward my older employee?
    Yes

    Can I show annoyance with a terrible job offer that I don’t plan to take?
    Sure, if that’s a bridge you’re willing to burn.

    My boss asked me to change my ringtone
    Why is your personal phone even on at work?

    My job doesn’t provide safe parking
    Neither does mine

    Can I show armpit hair at work?
    Please don’t

    Bitterly fought office coffee wars: share your stories
    There goes four of my life reading comments

    My employee is snarky and rude
    PIP it up and then out the door!

    Should I create an Instagram for my dog to make me stand out?
    Doggiegrams are always a good idea. Not sure how far it might get you in the professional world though.

    6. Decima Dewey*

      Can I do X?
      You can try, for all the good it does you.

      Should I do Y?
      No, nope, nyet, what are you thinking?

    9. Ashk434*

      These were funny, but I don’t agree with you about the phone. Where do you work that you need to have your phone off? What if there’s an emergency?

      1. o.b.*

        It doesn’t have to be off but it sure as heck should be on vibrate or silent. Unless it was an accident, anything else is inconsiderate.

  55. Oxford Coma*

    When real life and recent AAM topics collide:

    I helped review resumes this week for a new position in my department. The most qualified applicant has thirty years of impressive, relevant experience in the field…and his e-mail address is a d1ck joke. Yeah.

    I know he’ll get an interview because pickings are slim, and I really want to ask him about it. But, it’s set up so that he could explain it away as an innocent mistake. (Non-doxxing example: a guy named Fergus Goodman, with a cover letter that mentions how his lifelong passion for woodworking/furniture making shows his patience and attention to detail. The e-mail address is goodwood at gmail dot com.)

    Do you think it’s worth bringing this up? I’ve been mentally wording the question something like “It’s important in this position to show good judgment and to word communications carefully. Can you speak to why you think this e-mail address is an appropriate choice for a professional contact?”

    2. fposte*

      I think that’s a great question that could tell you a lot about the candidate. Depending on the email, I might expand the question to include a brief hat-tip to the possibility that it’s just a horrible coincidence (but could still be a problem).

    3. Parenthetically*

      I have no advice, but oh my gosh I’m obviously twelve because I am going to be giggling about this for days.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Is there any chance it’s not actually a dick joke? I could see someone having the email address in your example without realizing it would read as a dick joke (and then being confused and mortified if asked about it).

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yeah, in that example, I wouldn’t’ve given it a second thought. I’m sure I’m not the only person who wouldn’t notice a problem.

      2. Oxford Coma*

        Maybe. The cover letter and LinkedIn suggest the type of person I’d refer to as having a “big personality” so it seemed intentional, but I can’t be sure.

        It’s important either way, because an accidental misinterpretation by a client could be a major problem. And given his decades of experience, he shouldn’t be making that sort of error by now.

    5. JamieS*

      So the reason for the email name is somewhat explained in the cover letter? If that’s the case then I’d leave it alone. Otherwise I might say something like “I noticed you had an interesting email address, is there any story behind it?” or something to the effect.

      As an aside, whenever I hear/read something like “set up in a way it can be easily explained ” I’m interpreting that as “there’s an easy to see plausible non-offensive explanation but I’m choosing to interpret it negatively.” Just generally speaking automatically choosing the negative interpretation of something isn’t really a great way to go through life. Have some faith in others.

  56. Master Bean Counter*

    Cautionary tale of the week:
    Make sure you have written procedures for every thing. Having a back-up isn’t enough.
    Tuesday Amy went out with an illness. Wednesday Bernadette came down with something. Neither has come back to the office. We’ve been scrambling to make sure mandatory things get done. Why the struggle? Because Amy and Bernadette were the back-up for each other. Now poor Penny gets to run around with myself and my boss trying to pick up the important pieces.
    Penny and I also bleached and lysoled the office down Wednseday morning. I’m buying Penny lunch today.

    2. Brownie*

      Argh yes! My coworkers complain about being left in the dark like that all the time, yet they refuse to write up any documentation on their own areas which would allow others to take over when they’re out. It’s like tiny feudal kingdoms, each with a seagull king shouting “Mine! Mine!” and if a seagull king goes missing no other king will touch the other’s castle, even if the castle collapses, because there’s no floor-plan diagrams to show what it’s supposed to look like. Drives me up the wall as I’m the disaster recovery-minded person and get compliments on my detailed documentation from those same seagull kings when I’m out and they have to take over.

    3. Eye of Sauron*

      The old team that I managed were pretty good about cross training, but they were terrible about documenting where they were on particular tasks. Their excuse was that they didn’t need to note the work because they were the ones who was working on it and they knew where they were.

      I finally threatened them with “Work Swap Day!” sometime in the coming month. Meaning I was going to come in early one random morning and reassign all of their work to the next guy and give them someone else’s to work on and they wouldn’t be allowed to ask any questions of the original task owner. I must have had my reputation for following through on things like this, because I witnessed an increase in documentation for the next month. After they started doing it regularly it became habit and I didn’t have to follow through on WSD.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I am trying to imagine a world where one can write up procedures. I have been “working” on this for 6 years. I think I have two procedures written and they are no longer correct. If they are correct, then I only have about 200 more to write.

  57. Workerbee*

    Today I responded to an internal workplace survey honestly.

    Even knowing that the professed anonymity is a huge joke (as they manage to know if you don’t fill it out, among other tells), I am at a point in my career where I am sick of pretending things are Just Great when they aren’t. I did offer constructive suggestions.

    Overall, I feel…oddly okay about this.

    1. Emily S.*

      I think you did the right thing! They wanted feedback, they got it. I think it’s best to be totally honest on that kind of thing.

    2. TiffIf*

      I did that earlier this week! For the most part actually my company is pretty great but they seemingly have this blindspot about posting/detailing salary ranges/expectations. And it is to a ridiculous degree. Coworker was asked if she would be willing to take an internal position transfer (includes some job responsibilities she had previously that she hated doing) so she asked what the salary would be, they refused to give her one, so she named what she would be willing to take to go to that position and they weren’t willing to match that. They also have a known gender wage gap that they may very well be working on addressing, but they haven’t given us any updated information in a year and a half. I kind of let them have it on the section of the survey asking about fair compensation.

      1. Workerbee*

        Nice!

        I hesitated over that portion of our survey as well (that question came under the Strongly Agree-Strongly Disagree radio button style).

        Then I thought, they can’t NOT know that they’re paying us well under market rate, but maybe they’ve been happy to believe that WE didn’t know it all this time. No more!

    3. Recently Diagnosed*

      A little late to this party, but my workplace of about 1200 employees all decided to answer a survey like this honestly. Our culture has been eroding for years, and it seems like, as a collective, everyone just decided to hand it back to the execs. Five months later, we have a new CEO, new COO, new CFO, and our owner has been forced to take a back seat. Things are already changing, and the CEO sent out an email blatantly addressing our horrid culture and calling out the us-vs.-them mentality that has been further killing things. It can work.

    4. JokersandRogues*

      I know that feeling. At some point, you just want to stop thinking about it and just want to say it.

      I’ll admit I pushed that and actually did speak in a meeting where they were seeing if anyone wanted to discuss something publicly. I was feeling very, “You asked for it.”

      Shrug…

  58. Snark*

    What does one do if there’s likely to be a gap of a week or two between one’s final day at one job (contractually limited) and their start day at the second job? I expect I’ll probably skip one paycheck, hopefully not more. It won’t be enough time to start unemployment benefits, since you need to be fully separated from your job before starting a claim, and it takes 4 weeks. We’re not really in a place where a skipped paycheck can be ignored, particularly since my income is about 2/3rds of the total. The kid won’t be in daycare or preschool, so that will help. What have others done in this circumstance?

    1. Gollum*

      prepared and saved/cut down expenses/taken on extra freelance work/sold stuff on ebay….

      not meaning to snark but this could not have been completely unexpected?

      1. Snark*

        The original plan, delayed by bureaucracy, was for me to start in the middle of next month, so until this week no gap was expected.

          1. Gollum*

            Its only a week or so according to your post. so then like I said -> Cut expenses. Sell stuff. Try to freelance some work. Use credit cards if you have to (not optimal but again, since you’ll be working in a very short time period…) It’s not clear what you think you might not be able to cover but food can be done cheaply if you stay away from packaged stuff and shop wisely (plus you’ll have time ti meal prep/cook since you wont be working) Services? I cant think of anything ciritcal that you may need during a week without pay but barter or payment plans maybe an option if there is. Gas? credit cards. Utility bills? credit cards. Doctors? payment plan. anything else really could and should be put off if it all posssible.

            There are always options – may not be the most fun and it sucks that the parameters around the jobs transition changed but thats also why having emergency savings is wise. Maybe you can build up once you’re back at work that will be helpful to have for the future…
            Good luck.

            1. Gollum*

              also, you may want to find out when you’ll actually get your first paycheck from next job. At our company, we pay with the first two weeks worked but MANY companies are not like that and you may not get a paycheck for a couple of cycles. It will be helpful for your planning if you can find out.

        2. Master Bean Counter*

          Find things to sell, eat your cupboard bare, look at the gigs section of craigslist, start driving Uber for a bit, or just suck it up and find a place for a small loan.

    2. Schnoodle*

      Not much can be done but financially preparing for it. Sorry! Cut costs, offer to baby sit, keep eye on your utility usage, eat spaghetti for a while (get it BOGO at Publix!).

    3. k.k*

      I live paycheck to paycheck and am job hunting, so I’ve been mentally preparing myself in case this type of situation comes up. Options I have: (1) we have a small amount of saving for absolute emergencies; could dip into that with the intention of replacing it as soon as possible. (2) live off ramen during the gap and put things I can’t pay for on credit cards with the intention of paying it off as soon as I get a paycheck again. Both are not great plans, they only work if my next job pays significantly more so that I’ll be able to pay next weeks bills as well as paying back savings/debt. But that’s all I’ve come up with.

    4. Vin Packer*

      In addition to selling stuff, eating down your pantry: the late-bill shuffle. Don’t know your background, so apologies if this doesn’t apply, but middle-class people experiencing brokeness often overestimate the consequences of paying bills late. It’ll cost you a little more in the long run in nominal fees (although if it’s your first offense these can almost always be waived—just call and apologize for being late and ask for a “one-time courtesy credit”) but look at everything that’s going to be due over the next two months and see which ones can be delayed so you can spread your payments out over a longer period of time.

      Also, it’s only going to be one paycheck but if you have current pressing expenses: a new credit card while you’re still employed with an introductory interest rate of 0%. You can close it when you’re out of the woods. Again, not an ideal way to manage one’s credit but not as disastrous as getting yourself in over your head with interest payments on a card you already have.

    5. Lindsay J*

      There are some food banks/pantries that give out food without having the requirement to demonstrate need. They figure if you are asking for food from them, you obviously need it. A place like that might be an option, and would allow you to move money from your food budget to other areas.

    6. Natalie*

      It’s not totally clear from your description: are you actually living paycheck to paycheck, as in, no liquid savings at all?

      The reason I ask is that sometimes people are hesitant to every break into their emergency fund, but I think this is a perfectly fine time to use it. Commit to replenishing it as quickly as possible.

      Credit cards are also useful if you aren’t carrying a balance on them, but if you go that route I’d mock up a short term restricted budget so you have an idea of how much you can float in a card and still afford to pay the bill.

      1. Snark*

        No, we have savings, I’m just allergic to touching them. But you’re right, I suppose this qualifies.

        1. JaneB*

          We save for rainy days, say we can’t touch it because it isn’t really raining unless there are floods, then because the flood is only on the ground floor or we haven’t actually been struck by lightening…

          It’s raining, be grateful to past you for the rainy day money saved and promise that future you will rebuild the fund as soon as they can.

          1. Thursday Next*

            This is so well said, JaneB.

            Snark, we ran into a situation last year where we went into our emergency fund. We’d never done that before. Like you, I thought that fund sacrosanct. Then my brother pointed out that this was, in fact, the rainy day we’d been saving for. It made it a lot easier to use it.

  59. galatea*

    I’m jobhunting now and I’m wondering about professional networks. How do you keep in touch with your references? What is an appropriate amount of social contact, if you’re not friends outside of work? Should you check in once a quarter/once a year/once a job search? It seems weird to hit people up only when you’re interviewing, but it seems weird/invasive to keep hassling them on and off.

    1. Schnoodle*

      If you see a change on their linkedin, you can tell them congrats. I think saying Happy Birthday is weird, but around a major holiday you can send out a quick message. I personally like happy new year’s messages best though we’re past that right now.

  60. Dee Dee*

    Interview today. I had the phone screening last week. I’m not sure that I want this job–it sounds shiny and new with greener grass and all that–but it’s also a brand new team at a smaller company and will probably be a lot more volatile. I don’t have a sense of the pay scale yet, either, and I suspect they won’t be able to match what I am getting now. But we’ll see, I suppose. I had a big massive presentation yesterday in my current job and it was really well-received, and now I also feel somewhat invested in seeing that project through (even though I will surely get frustrated).

    I dunno. I’ve also heard that part of the reason that the company I am interviewing at is hiring now is because they expect there to be a demand for people in my role in the near future and they’re trying to scoop the talent up. If that’s the case, I may be better off to wait things out. I’ve also had some other people throwing jobs at me (not people in a recruiting position, but people at companies that have openings), though most of them are a good hour plus away.

    Basically, I’m on the fence about everything. Same old same old. :)

    1. Dee Dee*

      Interview went well. They visibly deflated when we started talking salary. Not expecting much to come of it.

  61. MissingArizona*

    I recently applied to a couple of jobs at our current base through the NAFjobs website. They let you create a profile, and uploaded a resume, but there is no place for a cover letter, and no mention of one for the application process. You submit through the website, so it’s very automated. Should I be concerned about not submitting a cover letter, even though nothing mentions one? There isn’t a follow-up email address, since everything is through the site directly.

    1. Hannah*

      Could you upload your cover letter and resume as one document? Or could you only attach a resume to your account generally (and not tailor it to each job)?

      I’d say if you have to upload your resume each time you apply for a job, they might expect the cover letter and resume as one document.

  62. jack*

    Alright I would appreciate some help with this issue: I am one of the only women who works in my facility in a male-dominated field (manufacturing). I have a pretty neutral facial expression as I imagine most people do, but people at work must see it as a resting b****h face because I consistently get co-workers, all male, telling me to smile or cheer up. Obviously, this annoys me instead of making me smile. Do you have some tips to get this to stop happening?

    2. Snark*

      “Please don’t bring up my facial expressions with me ever again.”

      “Stop saying this to me.”

      “It’s really weird that you keep saying that to me.”

    3. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I had a coworker humiliate me in front of the office about the fact that I’m not a smiley person.

      So.

      Whenever I saw him. I “smiled”. As in it didn’t reach my eyes, just pulled the corners of my mouth back. And kept it up no matter what. After a few times of this, he told me it was creepy. I mentioned he thought I should smile more. He stammered he was wrong.

      6. As Close As Breakfast*

        I tried to recreate what I thought this might look like… and I couldn’t even hold it for 2 seconds before I was laughing! My recreation might have been exaggerated, but… haha, I’m totally digging this!

    4. Reba*

      “I don’t appreciate that.” “So glad you care.” “Why is this so important to you?” “I noticed you never tell Bubba to smile.”

    5. Parenthetically*

      “You first.”
      “Nah, I’m good.”
      “I heard resting bitchface was good for preventing wrinkles.”
      “It’s weird how you keep commenting on my face.”
      “Fergus isn’t smiling either.”
      “Don’t know how. Why don’t you show me.”
      “Why?” (and then wait for the response)
      *level gaze, long pause, turn back to work*

    6. Morticia*

      Order them to dance? Since apparently giving each random orders is a thing? Ask them if they say this to other male colleagues?

      1. Parenthetically*

        I watched a video of a girl who said “Say something funny!” in a really “I dare you!” tone every time a man told her to smile and the responses were hilarious — much stammering and attempts at jokes, to which she responded with a Bronx cheer.

    7. Tuxedo Cat*

      It’s not helpful, but I would almost want to say “No.” Catch them when they’re not smiling and tell them to smile or cheer up.

      You could ask them why and ask them if this do this to their male colleagues.

    8. jack*

      Thanks for the responses, everyone! I’ve tried a few of these already (just saying ‘no’, sarcastic smile, ‘why?’) so it looks like I’m might just have to keep doing it until it gets through everyone’s thick skulls.

      1. Natalie*

        Often you do just have to keep saying it before it sinks in.

        That said, I’ve always had better success with “I’m fine, this is just how my face looks” versus trying to be snappy, at least the first time. There’s plenty of people that are frankly not paying attention and haven’t gotten the memo re: requesting smiles, and trying to zing them never seems to sink in.

        1. Reba*

          I like “this is just how my face looks.”

          Similarly, I’ve heard someone say, “I don’t have that setting.”

    9. Anon anony*

      “I’m smiling on the inside” – I told that one to my co-worker today who told me to smile. (Fellow RBF sufferer.)

    10. Windchime*

      When men give me the “Smile!” command, I usually reply with, “Say something funny.”

  63. tea lover*

    What’s your daily morning routine for settling in and getting your work day started? I love to get in a little bit early, make myself a cup of tea, and read the latest AAM post before diving into my work. Is there a typical settling in routine that you follow? How much time is acceptable before it crosses the line between settling in and procrastinating?

    1. Emily S.*

      I come to work early, when it’s still quiet with only one or two other people around. I make a cup of tea and get settled in, and I always enjoy that part of the day.

    2. Snark*

      I usually wake up at 5 or so, make a pot of chai, power through a bunch of focused detail work while I’m really rested, and then at 6:30 or so the kid and spouse wake up and we do breakfast and getting ready stuff. Then I head to work at about 8, drop off the kid, make some tea, and post here while I catch up on emails and handle stuff from my reports.

      This is all in a bit of flux since I’m working at home, but it’s basically the same.

    3. Tardigrade*

      I come in about 15 min early and have tea and breakfast while reading AAM and/or checking emails. This usually doesn’t extend more than 10 minutes beyond my “start” time but that’s really flexible in my office. I also have tasks that take maybe one hour of me work and 10 min of “the software has to take over now” or “someone else has to look at this before I can proceed.” So here I am.

  64. Pollygrammer*

    Going to (hopefully) be interviewing soon. Realized that none of my job interview clothes really fit anymore. One dress that I used to love actually trapped me in that half-in-half-out “welp, I’m going to die like this” state as I was trying it on. Crud.

    1. Teapot librarian*

      Oooh, I hate that “I’m going to die like this” state of clothing. I hope you’re able to find a great, flattering, affordable interview outfit, and that you have success in your job search!

        1. Pollygrammer*

          I love me some thredup, but they don’t make it easy to find matching separates even when they actually have both pieces.

          I’m also not very proportionate so a size 10 skirt and a size 10 blazer are going to be too small and too big on me respectively. >_<

    2. fposte*

      I hate that being stuck! I get a little panicky even when I can’t get a clasp undone on a necklace.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I got some really great blazers at the local giant thrift store for interviewing purposes. Since these might not be clothes you wear often, try the discount shops like Ross or TJ Maxx (or international equivalents).

  65. Teapot librarian*

    Hoarder Employee is now digging his heels in on a set of procedures that I retyped and edited (while maintaining 98% of the content). My job is overseeing all the elements A, B, and C in my office and he is the head of element B, so he says everything involving element B is subject to his direction only. He believes that I don’t have any experience in B so I should defer to him in all things B-related.

    Also, he sees nothing wrong with the existing set of procedures–which he presumably wrote, so of course he sees nothing wrong with them. I note the the existing set of procedures is 1. not fantastically written, 2. half highlighted in yellow but not to emphasize any particular items, and 3. (my motivating factor in re-typing/writing them) has been copied and copied-from-copies so many times that it is streaky and difficult to read, especially the lines that are highlighted.

    2. mrs_helm*

      I would concentrate on the part you CAN insist on, which is readability. Have him retype (hopefully into a computer).

      The writing quality and highlighting are stylistic choices. Let him have them, as long as it is readable. *Unless* you’re at a company with a style guide, or if his pages will be included in a larger document which requires consistency.

  66. Jed Mosley*

    Help! What matters more: a company you love or a job you love? I’m currently working at a company where I love the culture and care about the people as if they were my family. However, I’m in an entry level job doing work I don’t necessarily care for. I’ve expressed my interest in changing jobs internally, but with the way business is going, it doesn’t look like there will be any room for me unless the one person in the department I’m interested in leaves the company or we see some crazy increase in earnings – either way, it’ll probably be years before I see any change.

    Would you rather work at a company you love doing work you don’t care about or have a job you love working for a company whose work you don’t care about?

    1. Murphy*

      I realized during my last job search that I think have to care at least somewhat about an organization’s mission to work there. I was previously at a nonprofit whose mission I really cared about, but I never really liked my position in it. (I just needed to eat, and the people/the organization itself were pretty great.) I moved to a different job several years ago, where my day to day changed pretty drastically, and I’m a lot happier now that I’m happier with the work that I’m doing on a daily basis, even if the mission isn’t as exciting to me as that last job.

      1. Jed Mosley*

        Do you think you would be able to work at a job where you didn’t care about the company’s work? Is it worth holding out for a job at a company you love even if it’ll take a long time to get there?

        1. Murphy*

          I’m not sure. I just know that the last time I was looking, some jobs definitely appealed to me a lot more than others for that reason. I don’t remember if I actually chose not to apply for certain positions for that reason. If I really needed a job, I would certainly be willing to try. I think if I liked the people and generally liked what I was doing, I probably could. (I’m not a “work is my life” person. Work is what lets me live the rest of my life, but obviously I don’t want to hate what I’m doing for the majority of the day.) I think it depends on how badly you want a change from what you’re doing now.

    2. Lady Jay*

      False dichotomy. If you move on, you may well love the people there as well! That said, don’t underestimate the importance of strong relationships, I think. People who are critical, unsupportive, or distant can make progress or success at a so-called good job much more difficult. Some of the things I’ve accomplished in my career, I accomplished because there was somebody there who was a kind mentor.

    3. Tuxedo Cat*

      You can have both. You might have to compromise a little on one or the other, but if there’s no real room for growth, I suspect you would be better off looking elsewhere.

    4. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Find a better position somewhere else and in your exit interview let them know how much you love it there and hope things workout for you to return someday. Develop your skills and get from fresh experiences and then hopefully in a couple years if/when an opening becomes available they will think of you. Stay in touch with key people. A former coworker did that – he loved everything about our employer but his manager was up front with him that if he stayed he would never get where he wanted. Helped him find a job outside the company that would get him the pay bump he deserved and gain him the skills he would need. Hired him back about 4 years later at exactly what he deserved to make in a role he was thrilled with. Never would have happened if he had stayed because that place was full of assholes (previously mentioned manager excluded – he threw me an offsite going away party when I left because I told his boss to shove it…I was not opposed to burning that bridge).

  67. Robert*

    I’ve been thinking about some comments on an earlier post this week, on what “good reference checkers” do. Specifically, when reference checkers go outside of the candidate’s provided references.

    I have a past boss who actively dislikes me. HR investigated him for discrimination, and I caught him lying about me to companies I applied to. My old employer’s HR formally reprimanded him, since they have a “no references” policy and are in a very conservative industry.

    My concern is that a “good reference checker” could dig his name up and contact him in a back channel manner, without knowing about our history. In this situation, he might be more eager to lie about me and cost me a job, because he could get away with it.

    Is this realistic or am I worrying too much? Should I warn reference checkers that I had to report my boss at Job X for unethical conduct and he was disciplined (obfuscating the details a bit), or would that sound suspicious?

    1. Reba*

      Oof, tough situation, because yeah, you don’t want to proactively bring it up only to create the intriguing whiff of scandal with the potential employer… I hope others will weigh in but maybe a line like, “I know interviewers sometimes like to go off-script and talk to other references. I want to give you a heads up that at one of my past workplaces I don’t think I would get a fair reference because of an instance of discrimination.” I don’t feel like you should name the place without being asked, for some reason I’m not sure of.

      1. Robert*

        My gut feeling is that saying the words “discrimination complaint” will make me look like a potential liability to a potential employer. I know it’s not supposed to be that way, but that’s the unfortunate reality of the American working world.

        Also, HR sided with liar boss on the first complaint (discrimination). He was caught giving me a bad reference (not illegal on its own), which violated the company handbook – they have a strict “no references” policy and are in a very conservative field. So they weren’t willing to defend a junior manager against a potential EEOC/retaliation complaint.

        Saying “I had to report my boss for an ethics issue that would’ve opened the company to legal action” avoids that but I’m worried it still doesn’t sound good.

        1. Reba*

          “Whistleblower”? In your field does that sound noble or does it get sneered at? At the least it’s more succinct.

          1. Robert*

            I think that could work. Only thing is if they ask why he’s still there… but that’s delving fairly far into the realm of hypothetical.

        2. Khal*

          At my company, discrimination claims require an investigation where a lawyer interviews both parties and their managers. This probably cost the company more than you make in 3-6 months. You might want to reconsider whether you want a reference from this company after costing them so much money.

          1. Eric*

            I meant to reply to this a few days ago, but I only remembered it now.

            This is a weirdly antagonistic response. HR’s duty is to protect the company. If the company is halfway competent, their HR budget accounts for investigations. If they haven’t, that’s solely the fault of senior management. Protecting the company doesn’t translate to protecting management in all circumstances. The boss could’ve been reprimanded behind closed doors. And if you want to give a pithy line about investigations wasting company resources, I can just spin that around to say that bad bosses waste company resources by behaving in a way that opens them up to complaints and investigations.

            Since the boss apparently lied to a hiring manager or recruiter (it’s not clear which, but it’s irrelevant), they obviously had bad feelings toward the employee. And worse, the boss has spread it outside the company. If the former employee feels like this bad boss won’t go away and they can’t peacefully go on with their life, he’s going to feel like getting the law involved is a necessity, rather than something that will bring much more difficulty into his life. In my experience even the biggest, most bureaucratic institutions move very quickly when they hear a credible claim of retaliation.

            If I were in the boss’ position, I would not return any future reference calls. Not even to say that the company has a no reference policy. If they were sent to my work email, I would probably forward them to HR too, just to show that I have learned my lesson. And honestly, I’d consider looking for a new job. I’m not a senior manager, but I’ve been around long enough to know that in “large, conservative companies” you paint a target on yourself when you do something that opens the company up to legal action.

  68. Sadie Doyle*

    I have a salary question: I’m up for a promotion at work. It’s a big shift in responsibility and visibility, and I know how much work goes into the job. If I got it, I was planning to ask for a 20% increase and settle for 15%.

    This week, I received a 5% merit increase (part of the annual company process, though not everyone gets that amount). Should I take that into account when negotiating and deduct it from my #s? Negotiating is new to me.

    (I know this might be seen as counting my chickens, but this could happen – or not happen – fast enough that waiting for next week’s thread would be too late.)

    1. Emily S.*

      I’m no expert, but these things seem separate. I say, still go for the 20%. I did some research on LeanIn earlier this year about salary negotiation, and they say always “make the first offer,” and to specify a specific amount – and choose an amount that is higher than your ideal pay. Then you can negotiate from there.

      I recommend checking out their website (leanin dot org) for more negotiation tips – they have a lot of helpful info.

      1. As Close As Breakfast*

        I think this is an excellent delineation. It’s also a possible ‘comeback’ should anyone bring the recent raise into the discussion. “Well, we were thinking 15%, but you just got a 5% increase so we’re coming in at 10%.” It would be worth it to have a response like “Yes, I did recently receive a 5% raise as a result of my excellent performance in my current position. However, the visibility and responsibilities of this new position are such that they warrant a salary of X.” in your back pocket, where X is your salary plus the 15% or 20%.

    3. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

      I faced a similar issue this week. I kept the two things separate in my mind and asked for the additional percentage based on my current salary (as in after the earlier merit increase).

  69. Crystal Smith*

    Does anyone have advice for how to deal with a demanding coworker who’s excellent at never quite crossing the line? My coworker, let’s call her Ethel, is nitpick-y and critical of …pretty much everyone and everything, especially me. The problem is that she’s careful to always phrase criticisms as questions (“is there a reason you did x instead of y?” “did i miss a new procedure for this? no? oh i was just wondering why would you do it that way…”) or to frame her requests to do always do things her way as a reasonable favor (“can i ask that we always feed the llamas out first, and then the alpalcas, and then the donkeys? Unless you have strong feelings about it…”) Individually, each thing is fine, but in the aggregate it’s like being hen-pecked by a passive aggressive advice columnist.

    The real issue, I suppose, is that if you actually do have a reason for doing x instead of y, or feeding the donkeys first, you’re in for a tense and long conversation with Ethel that will last forever and may end with her simply asking if we can do it her way, please, because she wants to. Very few of the things she asks about are actually big issues, and if they are I’m quick to fess up or fix it, but 95% of the time it’s mostly stuff that really, really does not matter (and I’ve confirmed that with our boss.) I just end up going along with it because I have no idea how to say “no, I will not go along with your request because you didn’t give a good reason and I don’t want to” without sounding unreasonable.

    1. Sour Grapes*

      I’ve worked with someone fairly similar before – that’s so annoying! I think my response to that was to ask whether or not it made a difference (as you did) and then, honestly, just smile and nod and then continue to do the things the way you want to. For me the important part was to ask the reason behind it so as to not seem intentionally like you are ignoring instructions, but if it’s stuff that has even been confirmed with your boss to not matter then it won’t matter. It would be a little bit different if she was a supervisor and asking you to do things, or if there was a reason she had behind asking you to “if you put Z before Y then three steps later when I’m adding the spreadsheets together it makes everything much easier” but otherwise when she asks “can we do B before A” I would smile and say something noncommittal, then just continue to do it the way that you want to.

    2. Dee-Nice*

      Is she your supervisor? Where TF does she get off?

      I would be tempted to make her drag every. single. word. out of me with a team of horses.

      Ethel: “Is there a reason you did x instead of y?”

      Me: “Yes.”

      Ethel: “Did I miss a new procedure for this? I was just wondering why you would do it that way.”

      Me: “I see.”

      Ethel: “Can I ask that we do it this way?”

      Me: “You can ask.”

    3. LCL*

      Because I chose to.
      Worked on parents, works on boyfriend. It works on you, that’s what Ethel is doing. Don’t use on supervisors.

    4. DDJ*

      Give a little of that back.

      Ethel: Is there a reason you did x instead of y?
      You: Yes, I prefer it this way. Why, is there some procedure or process I’m not aware of that requires this to be done differently?

      Ethel: Can I ask that we always feed the llamas first, then the alpacas, then the donkey?
      You: Oh! Did I miss a new procedure for this? This is how I’ve been doing it and it works great, but if I missed a directive on it, please let me know where I can find it, and I’ll review it.

      Because if her reason is “Because I prefer it MY way,” you can respond “Oh, yes. I totally get that, since I prefer it MY way! I guess we all have ways we like to do things! For me, this definitely works better. I’ve checked with Boss to make sure this is ok. Since I’m the one doing it, I figure that it shouldn’t be an issue.”

      1. ronda*

        or just shorten it to “Why do you ask” about every question.
        Unless you really like varying your responses.

  70. Amber Rose*

    Compare and contrast:

    I get in a car accident. I’m told to drink some coffee and calm down. I get shit for taking a day off.

    Husband gets in a car accident. His employer installs a streetlight at the intersection where it happened, forces him to take a day off to recover, and gives him all the time he needs for physio.

    My jealousy over his job and his awesome manager is starting to turn from an ember into a bonfire. :(

  71. Sour Grapes*

    Oh man, I’ve been waiting for the open thread all week! I received a job offer (and accepted, woot!!) to get away from my current job at an incredibly small company. When I alerted the owners (the parents) and the manager (their son), with just under 3 weeks of notice (2 weeks and 4 days to be precise) they FLIPPED OUT. Basically just rude and condescending most likely due to their panic of realizing that the have 100% reliance on me to do everything. In our industry, the standard notice is 2 weeks (including small places like mine). And in the remaining weeks I’m here I’m being asked to accomplish 4 weeks worth of work to complete all the current products I’ve got going on. I’m feeling a lot of guilt due to their reaction, and worry that all the products that I have currently down the pipeline for the following year (which are attributed to me and basically part of my portfolio) will be left high and dry and end up bad. Especially as since I’ve given notice this past Tuesday they haven’t talked to me AT ALL (I have documentation! And Protocols! And status updates! And lots of other things that they should want to see and understand.) And then due to that the owners will be able to say that I didn’t “give them reasonable notice and so it’s all my fault that the products turned out poorly”. I know logically that a) if they put all their eggs in one basket and the basket gets another job and the eggs break it’s not the baskets fault and b) from my end it’s just business and I did everything professionally, but I just can’t shake this feeling of guilt and worry. If anyone has any stories of having a similar experience and how it turned out or tips or suggestions on how to maybe feel better about things, I would so welcome them!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      You gave them ample notice and you’re leaving behind documentation. You have no reason to feel guilty for leaving.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      The old you quit so I’m not going to talk to you routine. In my case it lasted for only one week of my notice period. The owner of the company would literally walk by my desk and not even look in my direction every morning for a week. By the second week he got over it. Hopefully yours is short lived as well.

    3. A Lady & A Scholar*

      1. You gave them plenty of notice
      2. You have the right to leave
      3. The company is their responsibility, not yours.

      I worked at a small private university (200+ employees) and every single time someone left, it was the same thing. How can you be leaving? Everything will fall apart if you leave and it will be YOUR fault. When I left, I got the same guilt trip, even though a lot of people knew I was searching and I did a bunch of work to prepare for leaving, including creating an employee handbook detailing the ins and outs of my position. And guess what? Everyone was fine. They hired a new person, she was great, and nothing fell apart. And I ended up at a new job I absolutely love- no guilt trips!

      Congratulations on the new job!

    4. Ali G*

      Just do the best you can – you sound like you have a plan together, and it will not get all done and that’s not your fault.
      When I left my first ever job (after being there almost 9 years) I gave 3 weeks notice because I was supposed to be traveling for work for 1 week. Well CEO pulled me off the trip so I had 3 weeks. I worked out a plan with my boss (COO) and I completed all the tasks. We kept CEO in the loop along the way, and never got any feedback from her. Until. 48 hours before my last day she sent this huge rant of an email to COO and me about how we have completely ignored all these things and there is so much missing, what will we do about A-Z, blah, blah blah.
      I was basically like, you were informed about this, and I don’t have to time to do what you are asking. I’ll do as much as I can. I didn’t do anything and they survived (this was a small company too).

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      Don’t let misplaced guilt lead you to work yourself into the ground in the next couple weeks. Document everything you can so you can leave it behind, and send all the typical status updates and daily reports you would normally give in person via email. If they don’t read it at that point that’s not on you. Don’t work 60 hour weeks up until your last day just because you work with loons all of a sudden. You could also send an email asking who of the remaining employees you should walk through your projects prior to your end date. If they don’t respond to your email….still on them.

      I don’t know your industry, but if for some reason you’re concerned they could make you LEGALLY liable for insufficient notice or whatever, DOCUMENT your documentation. Which sounds absurd, but print out the emails you’re sending. Attach your transition files to an email and print that (and the attachments) too. Get everything with a time stamp so you can prove that you were doing your due diligence for your entire (extremely reasonable) notice period.

    6. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      You’re worried because you’re a good employee who cares about what you do, which is a positive. Probably you will continue to feel bad until you leave, because you are clearly conscientious, and that how we roll. Once you are in your new job and starting new projects, I predict your feelings of guilt will disappear and you will wonder why this made you feel so bad.

      Also, I really enjoyed the basket and eggs metaphor. Perfect!

    7. Sour Grapes*

      Thank you so much all! I really appreciate your words, and they are making me feel better. As of 2pm today we have officially moved from the “we’re going to completely ignore you” into the “lets discuss everything that needs to be done and how everything you’ve done is wrong and bad and we’re super unhappy with all your work all of a sudden and expect you to get everything ever done before you leave”. Ugh. I’m so thankful to have a community of supportive people and Alison’s good advice!

  72. Annoyed anon*

    I work with some stronger personalities- they’re known by the managers for being difficult to work with. I seem to be their target. It’s nothing that I can complain about without looking like an idiot though. When I walk by they make comments and laugh about me. In a conversation, they don’t make eye contact or talk directly to me. They’ll ask everyone about ordering supplies except me. One makes a face at me when she says good night- are we in junior high again?

    I actually have to help them with work if they need it, but this lack of respect is making me mad because I did nothing to them. I ignore the slights and continue on with my work. I don’t expect everyone to like me, but why do they have to go out of their way to act like this?

    Is it best to just ignore this? Or should I say something? (But what?)

    1. Kalliopesmom*

      Ugh, first I am so sorry you are going through this. Next, rise above. Kill em with kindness. Just because someone acts like that doesn’t mean you need to lower your standard. Their opinion of you is none of your business anyways. Focus on the good you put out there and don’t worry about them.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      If there’s any way to get some emotional distance, see if you can approach it like an anthropologist studying a weird society of misanthropes. Their attitude is not about you but any outsider to their group. Bonus points for taking notes of particularly odd behaviors: “Subject Fergus whispered to subject Jane and snickered. Jane appeared to reciprocate, but her chuckle seemed forced. Later subject Arya grimaced while employing the standard farewell motions, it is unknown what caused the grimace. Suspect indigestion from earlier Hot Pocket lunch.”

      Also, grown-up mean kids suck.

  73. Anon here again*

    I work with some stronger personalities- they’re known by the managers for being difficult to work with. I seem to be their target. It’s nothing that I can complain about without looking like an idiot though. When I walk by they make comments and laugh about me. In a conversation, they don’t make eye contact or talk directly to me. They’ll ask everyone about ordering supplies except me. One makes a face at me when she says good night- are we in junior high again?

    I actually have to help them with work if they need it, but this lack of respect is making me mad because I did nothing to them. I ignore the slights and continue on with my work. I don’t expect everyone to like me, but why do they have to go out of their way to act like this?

    Is it best to just ignore this? Or should I say something? (But what?)

    2. Tardigrade*

      What the hell is wrong with people?! I’m sorry you have to deal with this.

      For those in-the-moment comments, I think the old standbys of “wow” or “excuse me?” with a look of shock are appropriate, same with the face-making. If you know they are asking about supplies, speak up and say you need more sticky notes or whatever.

      I keep erasing my advice and changing my mind about whether to bring this up to your manager, because it really sounds like you have a manager problem if their behavior is a known thing. If you decide to say something then maybe go with, “Mac, Charlie, and Dennis have been behaving unprofessionally toward me, making it difficult to with them. I’ve addressing their behavior in-the moment (if you decide to do that, of course) but I wanted to let you know that this is a problem because they’ve continued acting this way.”

      Ugh, again, I’m really sorry buttholes like this exist.

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      Caveat: Don’t do this if they are crybabies that would run to your boss and try to get you in trouble.

      I’d give their behavior right back to them. Be as ass to me, I’ll be an ass right back. If that’s how the wanna play it, game on.

      In all seriousness, if they won’t make eye contact when they’re asking a question, I’d say “are you addressing me?” As for the comments, I’d have to know what they are. I’d be inclined to stop in the moment and ask why they think X about me is so funny? These people sound like schoolyard bullies who are picking on the quiet kid. They’re just doing it because they can and because no one has stood up to them. If they’ve been allowed to do this before/for this long, it sounds to me like management accepts their behavior because they are top producers. If that’s the case, I don’t see management doing much for you and these types of people will then just view you as the crybaby who ran to the boss. If that’s an accurate assessment, the best thing I think you could do would be to stand up for yourself assertively and consistently. And maybe look elsewhere if things don’t improve sooner rather than later.

      P.S. Don’t let these people whittle away at your happiness/self-esteem. They’re d-bags.

  74. Cube Quadrant*

    Oh, the joys of office “watchers”.
    I work on a team of about 15 people, and 4 of us are assigned to a group of cubicles in the middle of the floor we work on. The four of us get along great, will chat (within reason) throughout the work day, and are a highly productive group. We’re all relatively young (26-37) and enjoy our work. My cube-quadrant (we’re nerds) and I typically come to work between 9 and 10 and then we’ll leave 5-6 on any regular day. (My direct manager comes in around 9:30, stays until 6, and he has personally told me that he and BigBoss aren’t monitoring what hours I keep as long as my work gets done.) We usually eat our lunches at our desks but may take a lunch break once every week or two. We have the flexibility to work from home if needed. There are some days, usually Fridays, when we’ll leave at 3 or earlier, and typically only if all of our managers have also left for the day. There are also other days when we all work here until 8pm and then work from home until 1 am. I have worked on a Saturday night 7pm-5am and then the next Sunday 8am-4pm, and still worked the full following week. We come in on weekends as needed. I respond to 8pm Sunday night emails of work to complete before Monday morning. We’ve worked 50 hours within 4 days. We get. The job. Done. Again, we all generally enjoy our work, our managers are excellent, and everyone on the team gets along. We enjoy our flexibility when we come late, leave early, or work from home as one of us has a chronic condition, another has a newborn baby, and one is planning a wedding
    The problem comes from the team who sits near us. They are also a team of roughly 15, and we’re surrounded by them. One of the cube quadrants went to lunch with a friend in HR who told her that some of our neighbors made complaints about us to HR. They said that we come late, leave early, and frequently take long lunches. The HR friend told us to “be careful” since we were being watched and that HR was in discussions of putting us on a time card system (we’re all exempt?!).
    Does my quadrant and I need to actually be on alert? Should we start showing up at 9 on the dot, cease all chit-chat, and never dream of leaving before 5pm? No more lunches? Start loudly proclaiming the hours we work from home that no one witnesses??
    The team who complained about us also has members who work on the same hours as us. None of our work overlaps. We share none of the same managers.
    Our initial thoughts are that our BigBoss will laugh at any request to put us on time cards since he knows how hard we work and sees our results. But if HR has already been brought in, do we need to be concerned?

    1. fposte*

      I think your choices here are take your concerns to BigBoss or write it off as shit-stirring that you can’t control, or both. I don’t think it’s worth remaking the practice of a productive team just because of unsubstantiated gossip.

    2. Crystal Smith*

      Can you tell your manager what your friend in HR told you? I would just frame it as “I know we’ve talked about it being fine for us to occasionally leave early/take a long lunch/whatever as long as our work gets done, but I’ve heard that HR/the other dept considers it a problem and maybe even wants us to use timecards. Is there anything you want us to change?” And if the answer is anything other than “no, of course not,” you’ll at least have some guidance.

      I had something sort of similar happen, with just one coworker complaining, and making my boss aware of it made me feel a lot better knowing I was still in the clear (AND she got them to cut it out, which was a wonderful bonus.)

  75. A Lady & A Scholar*

    Hey Fellow AAM Readers,

    My husband is interviewing for a temp-to-hire job. He’s been trying to get a job like this for over a year- it’s in the right field with a great company. The temp agency was very upfront before the interview and told him the hourly rate as a temp and the salary for the job should he be hired. The salary would be a $10-15k raise (plus benefits), and the hourly temp rate sounded reasonable until he started doing the math and realized that as a temp he’d have no PTO, holidays or other benefits- plus the job is downtown so he’d have to pay to park or take the bus. All things considered, the temp rate would be a significant pay cut

    Should he attempt to negotiate a better rate with the temp agency? Presumably they are charging the client company a fixed rate, so giving him more would come out of their own pocket. Is there anything different about negotiating a temp position vs. a typical job offer?

    For what it’s worth, my husband is desperate to get out of his current job situation, and he’s willing to take a pay cut to do it. However, the temp contract could be as long as 6-12 months and I don’t know how sustainable no benefits, no PTO and the lower temp rate would be for our sanity. (We do have good health insurance through my employer).

    Thanks!

    1. Wendy Darling*

      Definitely at least attempt to negotiate with the temp agency once he’s at the offer stage. Some will and some won’t but you won’t find out unless you take a stab at it. My current agency was willing to be flexible with my rate because they offer no benefits to speak of and have a very hard time finding people for the client I work for. I worked with an agency in the past that was not flexible at all.

      You also have to know that the “to hire” part is not guaranteed even if someone says it’s guaranteed. It never actually is. So don’t accept a pay rate that puts you in the hole because when he switches to salaried it’ll get you out of said hole — sometimes companies drag the temp contract out for years, or decide they don’t need to hire someone after all.

    2. Oxford Coma*

      Temp-to-hire is common in my field. The hourly rate for a temp should be making up for the fact that none of those other benefits are in place–your situation sounds like just the opposite. Depending on how the contracts are set up, you are correct that the temp agency may have incentive to chop your husband’s rate as much as possible, because it might cut into their profit. But: that isn’t your problem. It’s like a car salesman griping that you’re keeping him from putting food in his kids’ mouths. You’re worth what you’re worth.

      He should absolutely negotiate a better rate, and crunch the numbers to show the loss of benefits. (Plus, even though the salary was mentioned already, there’s a chance that if they succeeded at low-balling him on the hourly rate, they’ll pull the same thing again if he does get hired.) Push for more money up front. If they absolutely won’t budge, negotiate a raise within 3-6 months and GET IT IN WRITING.

      1. Recruiter*

        Our agency’s rates are based on a set percentage that was agreed on the contract. If the pay rate for a temp goes up, so does our bill rate. Negotiating up a few dollars an hour isn’t usually a big deal, but the agency would be negotiating on your behalf with the employer. My agency also offers medical, dental and vision insurance for reasonable rates while the employees are on our payroll.

  76. TotesMaGoats*

    I agreed to teach two sections of the same course at my university this fall. It’s only 1 credit, 7 weeks long but required of every student in my college. It’s a professional business skills course. So, resume and cover letter, networking, professional skills etc. I have a syllabus already and will obviously be referencing AAM with vigor. Any things you think I absolutely SHOULD talk about? Keep in mind my students are mostly transfer, older than average (25-35) and most already work in some way.

    And go!

    1. fposte*

      Do they come from a background that makes that great post about negotiating class differences relevant?

      Wouldn’t hurt to do a legal misconceptions and here are your state/federal employment regs/agencies module.

    2. Fishsticks*

      Maybe a brief lesson on stuff that seems legal but isn’t and stuff that seems illegal but isn’t. I think Allison did a post at some point about common misconceptions about employment law.

    3. Q*

      No fish in the microwave, don’t take the coffee/water if you aren’t in the coffee/water club, don’t steal other people’s lunches, and when cookies/snacks/Diet Cokes are offered, take one of two – not the whole tray/case!

    4. deesse877*

      Assuming these folks are from lower-middle, working-class or poor backgrounds, I’d emphasize whAt fposte said, and also consider discussing professional demeanor. That might be hard to do without being condescending or weird, but I know for a fact that my own class-based behaviors have held me back in professional contexts. I’m thinking things like:

      *learn to shake hands well with all genders, and avoid overly-deferential body language like a low voice or slumped shoulders
      *learn how to ask for critical feedback, and for opportunities to improve–stoicism is a big working-class thing that can come off as disinvestment to people from middle- and upper-middle backgrounds
      *learn how to advocate for yourself and your supervisees–I teach students from lower-class backgrounds now, and they often don’t get that being a manager means being proactive. Even initiating conversations with bosses can feel weird, especially to older people.
      *learn what cultural capital is, and how it gets you tangible benefits in the workplace. Knowing about, say, sushi or carbon-frame bikes may seem frivolous, but really it’s about signaling and relationship-building.

      That’s probably 2000% too much for one credit, but even just underlining the existence of class-based cultural differences can give them a powerful tool against self-doubt.

  77. anony job hunter*

    How can you deal with a lack of references due to working in a very small office for a long period of time? My first job out of college was in an 2 person office for years where it was just my boss and myself. I’ve since moved into my current job, and am hunting for job #3. For references I have one person from my current job, and my boss at last job, but no one else. For obvious reasons I don’t want more people at my current job knowing that I’m hunting so I can’t use people here. I’ve had some short term, part time type jobs from when I was in school, but I feel silly listing someone I worked with briefly 10 years ago. Typically you’re asked to provide 3 or more references, but I really only have 2. How bad is it not to have enough references?

    1. IHaveANiceCat*

      Question – have you worked with anyone in a volunteering capacity? I’ve supervised volunteers for a few projects and acted as a reference to them. Also two references is not bad! Some places will accept that. I also recently got hired for a new job where they required a reference from my current employer. This is what I said.
      “I’d love to provide that for you, but at this time I’d rather not let them know I’m searching for a new job until I have something else in place. Would it be possible to get that reference to you in the event you made me an offer?”
      They let me know that they didn’t make formal offers without the current reference, but they did make me an informal offer, which was made formal after I gave them the reference.

      If it’s a form you have to fill out online, maybe someone like your landlord, or someone else you have a professional relationship with.

  78. Wendy Darling*

    I need some people to eyeroll along with me at this:

    I had an awful, toxic job last year. It was so bad I quit without another job lined up. My boss especially was petty and refused to speak to me again after I gave notice. I haven’t talked to my boss since the day I resigned or anyone else at the company since my last day.

    I am going full-time at my lovely temp job, which requires a background check in which they verify my past jobs. Which went fine except that AwfulJob refuses to answer the phone for or return calls from the background check company, so they’re unable to verify my time at AwfulJob. I had to send them tax paperwork to prove I was there.

    I am SO UNSURPRISED that this particular employer is doing this crap.

    5. Oxford Coma*

      I can’t help but wonder what would happen if a place like that got called for a security-clearance-type background check and they refused to answer. Maybe the Feds showing up at their door could scare them into a sense of professionalism.

  79. Not usually anon*

    I’m co-owner of a small business (a combination manufacturer, retail shop and wholesale shop). We have 3 regular part time employees, several occasional staff, my cofounder (let’s call her Annie) and me. I’m wondering how to get myself out of this. Most of the time I enjoy what we’re doing, but there’s just no money in it. While we pay our staff reasonably, Annie and I work long hours, get 1 day off each every few weeks and go months without paying ourselves. She’s in charge of the bank account and every month, when my rent is due, I have to beg for money to pay it, get confronted with “either we pay this overdue supplier or you pay your rent” and, sometimes, have to borrow money from family in order not go get evicted from my flat. And there really isn’t any money to pay either of us.

    I’m trying to figure out how I can leave without the business falling apart. I don’t want to leave but I just can’t do this financially anymore. I don’t want to doom this whole enterprise, having spent years of my life on it, and I feel it would be deeply unethical to walk out, knowing that we owe several small suppliers money (in the low thousands) that will never get paid.

    Don’t expect any concrete help, just wanted to say aaggh!

    1. fposte*

      Running your own business is hard! I also think of the plot in the old show Thirtsysomething, where the protagonist goes in to handle his dad’s business and realizes that it’s circling the drain and has to close down, and the bookkeeper says wisely, “Businesses have a life cycle.” None of them last forever, and it’s time to let yours go. I think first of all you should talk to Annie if you haven’t, and then plan an orderly landing that allows employees to gracefully disembark with great references rather than having to leap down the emergency slide.

    2. Tardigrade*

      Aaaah indeed! I have no advice but I hope you can do what’s best for you and your business, even if that means walking away and/or closing the doors.

    3. EmilyAnn*

      You do not have a business. You have a very expensive hobby. A business should generate enough money to pay the owners and employees a reasonable wage.

      You are a good and ethical person to be worried about your small suppliers. Is there any chance you’ll be able to make them whole in the future? I’m not familiar with how a business in debt shutting down works, but you can either have Annie buy you out or you can elect to shut it down together. You cannot continue working for no pay.

    4. Former Retail Manager*

      How confident are you that the information Annie is giving you is accurate? This sounds suspicious to me. I think your first step is to sit down with her and go over the books for at least the last 2 years. Also, if you contributed money/assets to start the business, she needs to have a plan in place to buy you out. Depending upon the outcome of those conversations, I’d suggest you hire a competent CPA, potentially an attorney, and move forward from there.

      The accountant in me wants to know….how is Annie paying her rent/bills? Why isn’t the business generating a profit? Is there any means of making the business profitable via letting an employee go, negotiating with vendors, trimming inventory, etc.?

      1. Artemesia*

        So this. As co-owner of a failing business you should have your finger on the pulse and eyes on the incoming payments, the billing process, and the accounts and bills paid. It is extremely common for one person in a small business to be disproportionately sacrificing. Often that occurs in a family business where the son or daughter is grossly underpaid and then when the business is sold, has nothing. But I know at least one co-owned business where one partner sucked up the money and left the other perpetually short.

        If this is not the case then you don’t have a business and your goal should be how to land this disaster with the least damage to everyone.

      2. Not usually anon*

        Annie has family money, so get bailed out for her rent with no drama. We have gone over the finances (and do regularly), she just deals with the day-to-day. There’s No malfeasance(sp?), just everything costs too much for too little return.

        Unfortunately there’s no option of being bought out. Annie doesn’t have the means to do it (we’ve discussed it). We’re down to the bare minimum of inventory and letting staff go would mean working even crazier hours.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          If she has family money, offer to sell your share of the business to the family, or let her borrow the money from her family to buy you out. If she believes that the business is viable, let her put up the money.

    5. Not usually anon*

      Thanks for the replies, guys. Annie and I are having crisis talks on Monday (our quiet day).

      1. Mananana*

        Picture the situation 6 months from now: will you be kicking yourself that you didn’t get out now, or relieved that you got out when you did?

    6. Glomarization, Esq.*

      You may not be able to leave without the business falling apart. But businesses come and go. Most are unsuccessful. Don’t take it personally, and it is not unethical to leave a business that is not financially profitable for you.

      To extract yourself, first look at your foundational documents. See if there’s anything in your LLC operating agreement or partnership agreement or incorporation documents to see if there are steps you have to take to minimize what you owe to the business when you depart.

      Maybe before you leave, have a real come-to-Jesus conversation with your business partner. Tell her that you can’t and won’t work for the business if you don’t get paid regularly. This is business. It’s how it works.

  80. RedRH*

    So I just quite my terrible job today and I’m really excited and scared and am going to spend some time traveling and spending time with my family and boyfriend with my time off (I’m in a good financial situation for once, so double yay!) and I just needed to share because it still doesn’t feel real.

    2. Tardigrade*

      It’s awesome you can do that, and sounds like a great way to spend your time. Congrats!

  81. Still Looking*

    Update since last week – I have initial phone interviews scheduled with 3 companies today and Monday. One of these is the result of a recruiter contacting me about the job I already applied for. We had a great chat and she recommended another position she was recruiting for. That company quickly responded with a request for an initial phone interview. :)

    The other company sent me a brief email with a story that doesn’t jive with the previous narrative and asked if I had accepted another offer. I’m not sure how to respond to that on a variety of levels, the most concerning of which is their story about why they continue to search and where they were at in the process while interviewing me has completely changed. I don’t know what their aim is asking if I’ve found another job. There is no indication they are interested in offering me the position. I feel like I’m the emergency back up in case they get desperate.

    1. ronda*

      if you havent accepted another offer just say you have not.

      you can also take the oppurtunity to ask them what kind of time line they are thinking for their decision and when you can expect to hear from them.

      Otherwise just move on as if they are not going to hire you. No reason to overthink what they are asking you.

  82. Jess R.*

    I struggle heavily with getting up on time.

    My shift starts at 7am and once I’m up, I really am a morning person. But between clinical depression and definitely not getting enough/quality sleep, I have a hard time actually getting out of bed (or not just crawling back in after turning my alarm off). I’m getting help for the depression, and I’m working on my sleep schedule, but in the meantime, any tips for actually getting up when my alarm goes off?

    I have two alarms on a standard alarm clock, which is on the opposite side of my bedroom, plus one on my phone (I use the RockClock app in which Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson sings to wake me up).

    I’m posting this in the work thread because while it does impact me on weekends too when I have somewhere to be, I’ve been late to work twice in the last month because I simply could not manage to get up, and I don’t want this to become a pattern. Any tips are appreciated, even if you think they’re obvious!

    1. Forking Great Username*

      I set a ton of alarms on my phone – just turning it off doesn’t always work for me, even when I have it on the other side of the room! But once I’ve turned off four or five alarms on my phone I’m usually feeling annoyed enough with the alarms to just get up already, haha. My reasons for sleep struggles are similar to yours through – it is tough!

    2. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      Solidarity fist bumps.
      It’s hard.

      Have you tried on of those light/dawn alarm clocks that simulate a sunrise?

      I’ve also had success with different sorts of alarms -phone, regular alarm clock, a vibrating alarm on my Fitbit, etc. that way my brain doesn’t “shut out” the sound of my alarm.

    3. fposte*

      Have you put a wakeup light into the mix? I find it really helps, and with a 7 am shift it’s probably still dark for you at wakeup even in April.

      And I am going to get the RockClock app, which I did not know about.

      1. Ali G*

        Second the light idea. I have low grade SAD and there are days I just cannot get out of bed if it is dark. I have one that starts up 30 min before the alarm time and it gradually lights up to full strength. Also I found that giving myself 10 min of time in bed reading before I got up helps. I actually look forward to those 10 min and it helps your brain wake up while absorbing the light.

      2. AnotherLibrarian*

        Also agreeing with the light idea. I used a light when I lived in Alaska and it was always dark when I got in the wintertime and I had SAD. I had mine on a timer switch, so it would come on about 25 minutes before I needed to get up. The change in light didn’t always wake me up, but waking up in the light was so helpful.

        1. JaneB*

          fourthing the light clock. Even though I don’t have SAD (if anything I’m less depressed in winter, the short days and everyone around me being grumpy make me feel far more normal and less like a failure, and our cool rainy weather in the UK makes me happy), the morning light thing really helps with getting me out of bed, even in summer when “real” sunrise happened an hour or so before!

          1. AlaskaBlueGirl*

            Fifthing the light clock! I live in Alaska and the wakeup light has made such a difference in my ability to get up in the mornings. No more startling awake in a pitch black room, where the darkness made it really easy to think to myself “I can stay in bed a little longer…”

    4. Sapphire*

      One of the things I’ve tried doing while unemployed is to set my alarm on my phone and put my phone in the living room (or some other room near your bedroom). That way it not only forces me to get out of bed, but get out of the bedroom to turn off the alarm. It sort of works sometimes, but I need to be more diligent about doing it.

    5. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I struggle with this. And this might seem stupid, but to counteract it, I get everything ready the night before. Breakfast* and lunch (half the time, I make several days worth and freeze it -then pull out as needed). My clothes laid out. Shower the night before. Knowing that all I have to do is get dressed gets me out of bed on time.

      *I make a smoothie, so I put all the frozen ingredients together in the freezer, then have the blender in the fridge with the other ingredients so all I have to do, really, is turn the darn thing on.

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        Yes! This! SO MUCH!

        I lay out my clothes, have my most used makeup on my bathroom counter, put my shoes by my door, and my bag (with a bag for my lunch box on top of it). I put my oats in a bowl with a spoon on my kitchen counter so all I need to do is put in water and pop it in the microwave. Etc etc.

        I’ve shaved my morning routine down to 15 minutes from getting out of bed and out the door.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          This also works so if I do wake up on time and DON’T want to get out of my bed because I’d rather find out what Disney Princess would be my roommate, I don’t feel guilty. It lets me take my time (or not) and has severely reduced my stress.

    6. SoSo*

      In addition to the ones mentioned above, I had a friend with similar wake-up issues who had her own special system. First, she would set multiple alarms that were all clips of upbeat, fast tempo songs. Then she would set the volume at the loudest setting, and proceed to hide the alarm somewhere in her room that wasn’t easy to get to. She would cycle different locations- at the back of the closet, under the bed, on a high shelf, buried under desk stuff, etc. Her thought process was basically: make it as loud and attention getting as possible (the music woke her up faster than a standard beeping alarm), and she had to get up and search for it (not just to walk across the room and slap the snooze button) which would get her blood flowing and moving around. Sometimes she would do it with multiple clocks/devices, set at 5-10 minute intervals so she kept having to get out of bed. It was a pretty involved system, but it worked.

    7. Tuxedo Cat*

      A wakeup light is useful. If you can, I’d put your alarm somewhere where you can’t just roll over and hit snooze- being physically up helps me.

      Drinking water before I sleep helps too- I have to use the bathroom around the time I get up.

    8. Cedrus Libani*

      I struggled for years with this. What helped me was wearing blue-light blocking glasses before bed (cheap orange safety glasses are fine, Amazon has them for under $10) and taking melatonin, such that I could actually go to sleep at a civilized hour, and therefore wasn’t miserable when the alarm went off.

    9. Lindsay J*

      If you have a prescribing doctor or psychiatrist, have you talked to them about these issues?

      They might be able to prescribe you something to help you fall asleep and stay asleep, or something that helps you to feel more energetic in the morning.

      Also, I’ve found that there are just some times in the morning that do and don’t work for me. I am better at getting up for work at 5am than I am at 8am. (And if I do wake up at 4:30am, there is a lull around 8am where I still want to go back to sleep.)

      I’ve recently decided that I’m just going to work with that and wake up earlier and try to get stuff done then.

      Also, despite not being a morning person, I’ve found that building time into my morning for me to sort of relax has helped quite a lot. It was counter intuitive to me, because I figured that since I hated waking up in the morning that waking up at the last possible moment that still allowed me to throw on some clothes, grab some breakfast, and get to work on time was best. However, if I give myself time to listen to some music, check Facebook, do a crossword puzzle, and read Buzzfeed or whatever in bed before I actually have to get up and going, I’m much more apt to get up rather than roll over and go back to sleep.

    10. Roja*

      Looks like others have covered alarm ideas pretty thoroughly… I’ve noticed I’m much more motivated to get out of bed if I have something I’m looking forward to. Is there a food you really like that you can eat for breakfast? A book or a TV show you want to finish and read/watch while you eat?

  83. Forking Great Username*

    Today my last day of student teaching! I’ve worked my butt off to be the best student teacher possible, and just need to gush a little bit about being so happy that it paid off. My cooperating teacher wrote me a super lovely letter of recommendation, and the kids (well, really they’re teenagers, mostly 18 year olds!) have signed cards with super sweet messages, pooled their money to order pizza for a goodbye celebration, brought in treats they baked to share, etc. Some of them even brought me small gifts! I’m super touched.

    Now on to the next step…the job search! This school does have a teacher in my area retiring at the end of the year, and I’m crossing my fingers that I will be selected to fill her spot. Spending lots of time here reading about resumes and interviews!

  84. Sapphire*

    Unemployment thread to talk about how your job search is going, and commiserate if necessary.

    I’ve been feeling really discouraged lately. The university rejected me, though the hiring manager said she would consider me for other positions in the future. I do have a temp job coming up so at least unemployment will last a little longer, and I applied to a remote customer service position on a whim, and I have a phone interview next week. But I’m getting to the point where I don’t even want to hope for the best, and I’m feeling like I’m good enough to be a temp, but not good enough to be hired on full time (not knocking temp work, but it doesn’t feel great that I’ve been turned down for all these full time jobs)

    1. GraduallyGettingThere*

      I wrote somewhere further down that a temp agency knocked my confidence – in that they said I wasn’t qualified for a temp job similar to the ones I’ve been applying for. I’ve since gotten interviews for jobs that are in same vein as the one the temp agency turned me down for. I’ve also started a qualification to help me say what I’ve been doing while I’m out of work and to help make me more relevant for jobs.
      Maybe take a break – when you get your next temp assignment. The cycle of applying can suck and make you feel lowsy about yourself. Temp jobs are jobs and I don’t think they make you less qualified for full time roles. The stuff you said above is all positive – you had an interview (which although you didn’t get it is a positive sign, as is saying you can apply for other roles), you have a phone interview coming up and you have a temp assignment lined up.

      1. Sapphire*

        The only thing is I’m on unemployment, so I can’t take a break from applying, though I have continued to look for roles that would apply to me, so I guess that counts? (My state isn’t as stringent, I just have to say I looked for work when I request unemployment benefits for the week). I probably will just because I’m not being as productive, and I need a day or two to reset and get back on track.

        1. GraduallyGettingThere*

          ah I’m sorry think I misunderstood – I thought you had a temp job arranged and could maybe take a break while you worked there. I’m not from the US so not sure how unemployment works over there.

          1. Sapphire*

            I see. As far as I know, to keep receiving unemployment benefits until my temp job starts, I have to be looking for work. Conveniently or now, the number of jobs I have to apply to isn’t specified.

    2. Beth Anne*

      I had a phone interview last week that I thought went well but they emailed me a rejection letter :( it’s so hard to figure out what people are looking for and how to answer the questions they ask.

      1. Sapphire*

        Right? And oftentimes, it’s more about what the interviewer is looking for, rather than what you offer (hilariously, it’s easier to tell myself this about theater auditions than it is about job interviews). Hiring is such an inexact thing and it’s so frustrating when you don’t get it.

  85. Spunky Brewster*

    I’m having a technology meltdown today. Yesterday my group was migrated to Office 365 and I was upgraded to a Windows 10 laptop. This is too much change in my life and I’m having a hard time coping. :(

    3. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      We were upgraded to Office 365 a couple of months ago and it was a nightmare. Especially Outlook – some users are still having difficulties sending and/or recieving emails, seeing updated calendars, etc.

      1. Windchime*

        We are also on Office 365 now. I was so relieved to find that I could still use the Outlook app to get my email and not have to go to the awful web interface! I had to re-do all my rules and stuff but otherwise, it has been OK.

  86. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

    How do you know when it’s time to move on to another job?

    I’ve been almost three years in my current role as a management consultant with the Big4 (my first job after graduation)
    Overall, I really like it, I’ve got great colleagues and bossss and have done interesting projects.

    Unfortunately, both my boss and my grandboss (wonderful people) are moving on to other stuff, as well as some of the colleagues in closest with.

    These are all brilliant people and it’s just feel a little inauspicious that so many are leaving…

    At the same time, my job has put up with a lot of things and given me a lot of flexibility (2 months off year 1 due to a pulmonary embolism, 3 weeks last year due to gallbladder surgery and now 4 weeks off due to family stuff) and generally flexibility with regards to frequent medical appointments.

    Basically, I worry that I would not get those things with a new employer.

    I’m a slightly above average performer and have decent experience so I could probably get another job fairly easily.

    (I have anxiety and major impostor syndrome due to adhd…Can you tell?)

    1. Nessun*

      Are you feeling that you should go because so many others close to you are going? Or because you want a new challenge after three years? If it’s the former: I’ve been with the same Big4 (accounting) firm for 16 years, and the amount of turnover constantly freaks out newer hires – but it’s part of our business plan to have alumni in private companies, so we want our staff to learn, grow and go, except for a core group that want to climb the ladder. Both are great career paths, and both are fully understood and supported by the firm. Sometimes understanding that helps staff settle into their work and stay longer here; and sometimes it helps motivate them, too. You’re “slightly above average”, so you probably could choose either path, from my perspective – and you needn’t feel you have to go if you don’t wish to.

      If it’s the latter (you need a new challenge): take advantage of the network of wonderful people moving on, to use as resources in your search, and spend the time to find something that hits the right notes against the benefits you’ve already got (and I agree, those could be harder to find).

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        More the first, I suppose. I know turnover is part of the plan, I guess it just feels…wrong that the best people are leaving?

        I know I could leave and come back if it doesn’t work out. I suppose I worry that I’ll get too comfortable and stop developing? I lean towards complacency.

        1. Nessun*

          From the perspective of one who stays put, there’s always something to learn and skill to develop. The main distinction is *which* skills to develop – a specialist within a firm is not the same as someone who knows one company inside and out, so there’s value in both. Perhaps those senior staff you admire would be useful to meet with, to pick their brains over coffee or lunch (if you have that relationship) – at the least, it’s a way to maintain your network.

          1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

            Thank you so much for the sage advice!

            I’m having lunch with my departing boss next week, and am planning to see departed grandboss next week as well.

            I’ve worked mainly in the public sector which I’m, in all honesty, great at. Clients LOVE me. But I haven’t really done the type of projects I’d like to do.
            My current project is due to continue for at least a year (good for business!) but I’m not sure if I should ask to do something else, just for the experience.

  87. Audiophile*

    My frustration is reaching a boiling point.

    I’ve been in my job for a little over a year, and it has drastically changed in the last 6 months. A coworker, basically the counterpart to my role, made a lateral move and I was given those responsibilities.

    Even though I’m the junior person in both units, I’m carrying the majority of the responsibility and truly am holding up both units. My salary has not changed, nor has my job title.

    At the end of last year, I was asked if I was interested in a potential promotion that would include a title and salary change. At the time, I asked if there was a plan to hire replacements for my role and my counterpart, in order for me to move into this promotion, and I was not given a clear answer.

    While a title and salary change would be nice, the promotion as described is already part of my original job responsibilities. So unless some tasks were shifted away from me, it wouldn’t change anything about what I’m currently doing.

    On top of that, there is now discussion of bringing a lot of work in-house, which would significantly increase my workload.

    As much as I love my coworkers and the organization as a whole, I think I need to start job searching.

  88. GriefBacon*

    I’m curious about people’s impressions of Western Governor’s University — and namely, if having a degree from WGU would look iffy on a resume? Being not-for-profit, does it have a better reputation than most online schools?

    1. Reba*

      For me it would be a bit of a flag, but not a red one, since I know it’s considered to be among the good online programs but I also know it was investigated by the Feds last year for fudging on the level on student-prof interaction they offered. (The latter is probably higher ed nerds only knowledge.) If I were interviewing I might ask about it but not immediately write the candidate off.

    2. Red Reader*

      My understanding is that WGU is a big option for “I have the experience, I just need a piece of paper for the formalities.” I will be picking up a second bachelor degree from them – paid for by my employer, who is notoriously picky about who they’re willing to pay tuition reimbursement for, so there’s that – because the certification I want to take for my career requires a specific bachelor degree, and the fact that I have a different degree, two masters degrees and 15 years of experience won’t cut it for the certifying body. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    3. Horizon*

      It will depend upon what field you’re in. If you’re in higher ed, many people will look askance, especially since the Department of Education was questioning whether it “counted” as college.

  89. 414*

    Hi everyone–i’m just looking for some outside persepctive on an issue at my workplace.

    I, along with 6 others, work as legislative aides for a local-level legislative body. We just had an election here and four new legislators started this week. Yesterday, there was an orientation for the new legislators and we were required to attend. The orientation consisted of a basic orientation to the office and board by the chairman, as well as presentations from all departments we work closely with.

    We were all pretty confused why we had to attend the orientation in the first place because it’s all information we already know and we were not giving a presentation or anything. We were just observing in the audience. The chairman introduced our office’s chief of staff, public information manager, office assistant, interns and executive assistant all by name and gave background on their duties. After he went through them, he said “and you know the rest of the staff.”, referring to us. We were pretty upset about this because, first of all, we hadn’t been introduced to the new legislators. They were brought around the office and introduced to the current legislators and office staff, but not us. I was in the room with one of the legislators I work for while our chief of staff introduced all the new legislators to him and just totally ignored me, which I thought was pretty rude. For some background, the legislators in this particular government work part time and we work full time. They all have other full-time jobs and are rarely in the office. They’re maybe here once a week. Thus, we do the bulk of their work. To not be introduced seems rude. At least they could’ve said, “hey this is name and they work for legislators name, name and name.”

    It just seemed like a total brush-off when we are the ones that are here 40 hours or more a week putting in all the work. This legislative body has been lambasted for years now about not actually doing anything, being in the office or talking to constituents.

    Were we justified in feeling a little put-off by this non-introduction? I wasn’t expecting a whole spiel about us, but at least a “go around and say your name”? Also probably doesn’t help that we’re down 3 legislative aides so we’ve all been taking on extra legislators.

    Sorry for the novel!

    1. McWhadden*

      I think you’re right and that’s unfathomably rude of them. I don’t have much constructive to say about it but I would feel just as upset.

    2. Pollygrammer*

      Can you mention to the office manager or chief of staff that it would be great to have a formal introduction in a non-accusatory it-seems-like-not-everyone-has-met-everyone kind of way?

      I think there’s probably a chance everyone is the chain of command is assuming someone else in the chain of command already took care of it.

    3. Student*

      This is one of those things where it’s always more productive to do something about it than stew. You weren’t being purposely snubbed. Everyone thought someone else was going to introduce you.

      It would’ve been fine, in the moment, for you or anyone else in your cohort to interject and say, “Actually, we haven’t been formally introduced yet; I’m 414 and I do X. {Then gesture to colleague pointedly to get them to introduce themselves}. You could’ve done this face-to-face, or in the big meeting.

  90. Dragoning*

    So, my department is made of teams of people with basically the same job role, to split the workload up. Mine is made up of three people.

    Well, normally. Because the senior person on my team is out for indefinite medical leave as of yesterday. Managers were joking about cloning me in a meeting.

    Which I guess is nice, because my contract is coming up for renewal, but, ugh, I wish this meant they could convert me to an employee. But guess not….

    How horrible am I for privately wishing my senior coworker (who’s only a few years off retirement now, an actual employee, and talks about it all the time), is just the tiniest bit too ill to return and opens up a spot for me?

  91. bohtie*

    Just a rant: So they just announced promotions for my group and once again I’m left out. It’s been six years since I had a promotion. Last year, I was eligible for one, and was about to get it, but then I got sick and missed some time off work and the promotion was rescinded. (And yeah, turns out that’s perfectly legal — it literally says in my documentation that the ONLY reason I wasn’t promoted was because of my illness, that my work was well above standards and that I did everything they asked me to and then some. If I’d been FMLA eligible, it would be as far as I know super illegal to deny me a promotion on those grounds alone, but because I wasn’t, it’s totally legit, and I was reminded of this fact repeatedly by my boss and department head — oh I’d totally be making more money and have a better job title if only I called out less and that is the only reason.)

    I love my job and the company I work for, but I’m so burned out that it’s really not helping my health. Every time I do get sick, I get a passive-aggressive email afterwards about not taking too much sick leave (even though I have plenty in the bank). Everyone thinks they’re “helping,” but all they’re doing is advising me to have the exact same conversations I’ve had with HR at least three or four times already in the past year, which always end with the bureaucratic equivalent of “sucks to be you, but this doesn’t count for FMLA, so nobody can do anything about it.”

    I’m trapped in that awkward space between healthy and sick and I’m not enough of either for anyone to take me seriously.

    I feel like I’m constantly shamed for my illness, which has only happened since I got shifted to this new team a few years ago. My department head literally never gets sick, and this new team has a culture of coming into work contagious to ~show your dedication~ anyway (which is part of how I got in trouble — someone came in with the flu and got EVERYBODY sick at the end of the year), so the fact that I use any sick leave at all is generally greeted with funny looks. Plus almost everyone else has a WFH option and I don’t because of the nature of my job, so I can’t avoid using sick leave by telecommuting the way other people can. I’m also pretty sure my department head thinks I’m faking my illness (especially since I’m still undiagnosed), which is not helping in terms of how I’m being treated.

    I’m just so effing frustrated and want to be left alone instead of getting the “well, did you talk to HR again” thing. I’m going to have to have surgery in a year or two and I’m absolutely dreading that already.

    1. Reba*

      Are you looking for another job? Even if you decide to stay at your current place, the feeling of having options can be helpful. This situation sounds demoralizing and the coming to work sick thing is just ugh.

      1. bohtie*

        Yeah, sometimes I put my resume in places and I find it actually helps with the burnout to know that I have options I’m qualified for, even if I probably wouldn’t take them, heh.

    2. Susan*

      Holy f. I’m sorry, I can’t get behind a company that overtly holds you back for taking care of yourself. You say you love it – are there aspects of the love that could be found somewhere else?

      1. bohtie*

        It’s a very weird situation. I don’t want to leave my job because I like the work that I do, I get paid twice as much here as I would doing this same job literally anywhere else, and it’s extremely stable. (Archives/libraries is a bit of a rough field right now, so the fact that I have a full-time job with benefits where I actually get to do the work that I enjoy doing is a bit of a unicorn in that regard.)

        It’s mostly a combination of having a department head who is super passive-aggressive combined with really obnoxious leave policies that look good on paper but are terrible in practice — and they’re listening to feedback and getting better, actually, so that makes me feel a lot more hopeful every year. 90% of the time I’m working with clients by myself and can coast by without having to interact with any of this crap. My boss is trying super, super hard, because he knows that this level of office politics is way beyond my skillset, but just… ugh. Ever since we got transferred to this department it’s just been obnoxious because we’re supposed to “fit in” somehow in a way that no one ever expected from us before.

  92. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

    Well, Hubs got medically DQ’d from the Navy. That chapter is done.

    Which makes my job both waaaaaaaaay less stressful and my life a roller coaster, since we’ve been planning on this for nearly a year, now it’s just…done. But now I don’t have to worry about getting new jobs every 2 years, or explaining a jumpy job history, or finding military-friendly companies.

    Hoping that Hubs returns back home within a couple weeks, that he takes a couple weeks off, and that he finds something for a new job that he loves.

    On a different note, NewJob has decided that we get uniforms if we’re out in the plant. Which is dumb for those of us that are not of the type to wear men’s clothing, as the uniforms are all men’s sizes/cuts and really don’t go small enough for me. I also don’t know why we even need uniforms, as we never have before.

    1. KR*

      Congrats on your husband’s EAS! Ours is coming up in four or five years most likely and I’m already thinking about it.
      Also, that uniform thing is SO annoying. I’m a petite female and I’ve had the same issue. It might work to bring up to your bosses that loose clothing that doesn’t fit well can be a safety hazard, so it is worth it to invest in uniforms that are cut for women for a safer workplace. Could you get your uniform tailored to fit you or would your work be willing to cover the cost? Good luck!

      1. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

        EAS?

        I’m not sure – I don’t think we can take them off site. Thankfully my position isn’t out in the plant that often, so I can just change in the locker room, grouch out to the sites I need to sample on the other side of the plant, and then change when I get back. I assume they’ll issue us locks for the locker room…

          1. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

            Well, technically Hubs never truly entered as active duty – he’s been in Officer Candidate School and dropped on request because of a disqualification for aviation due to medical issues, along with an injury that would have extended training by several weeks (and we wouldn’t know until the end of that if he was DQ’d on everything else too).

            At least now I don’t have to memorize all these acronyms, I guess?

    2. anon24*

      I’m sorry about your husband. I hope he finds something he loves.

      What is up with companies forcing women into men’s clothing? My last job did that and then they pulled me aside to complain that I looked unprofessional and “dirty”. Um yes, I work in a dirty dusty environment so I am filthy by the end of the day, and of course I look unprofessional but this is what you told me I have to wear or get fired. I’d look more professional in jeans and a nice company polo shirt but you said I’m not allowed to dress like that…. sooo what do you want me to do?

      1. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

        I have no idea why we even need the uniforms – I don’t get dirty at all. No one really does. It’s vaguely dusty, but not legitimately dirty. And I’m going to smell like grain regardless because it gets into your hair.

    3. BuffaLove*

      UGH to the uniform. Not quite as bad, but my agency made me order a men’s/”unisex” jacket for field work. People are constantly pointing out how gigantic it is, and I’m like… I ordered the smallest size, wtf do you want me to do about it?!

      1. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

        The uniform fitter guy handed me a large men’s shirt and the size of pants my 6’4″ husband wears. I’m 5’2″ and pretty petite, so I was swimming in both. It was kinda hilarious. Thankfully though he didn’t have samples for me to try, I could order an XS shirt and proper (but still men’s cut) pants.

    4. Mirth & Merry*

      Ugh I hear you on the men’s clothes.
      I will say in my companies defense they haven’t found a supplier with women’s options for the specific PPE ratings/needs/i don’t know. They did tell me if I found any they would pay for them…and I cannot find them!
      It pains me to say this but it’s not my companies fault (this time lol)

      1. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

        I had that before – they ended up asking the supplier to special make two sets of the heat protective gloves my equally small female coworker and I both needed. I felt very loved by that company. Some things just don’t exist for short people and/or female-shaped people.

        Another coworker and I at this place petitioned for coveralls, but apparently that was a no-go. :(

      2. FaintlyMacabre*

        I worked for an employer who made us wear neon orange shirts for safety in the plant. Then they decided to switch from neon orange cotton/polyester t-shirts to a “performance” fabric… which was not opaque. They seriously didn’t realize that before ordering? Nobody wanted to wear those, especially the women, and we all ended up wearing tank tops or some other layer under them, which counteracted the point of the performance fabric. Good intentions, bad outcome.

  93. Tedious Cat*

    Any advice on internal interviews?

    I’ve been in my job a little over a year and I love it! I’m also very efficient at it so I’m currently covering extra work while we’re down a few people. A new position just opened in my department. It’s basically what I’m already doing with a side of documentation, which I did a lot of at my previous job. I asked my boss and grandboss if they thought I was ready and they were both very enthusiastic and promised me glowing references.

    I’m going to spend the weekend on producing the best application that I can, and as badly as I want it, I’m trying to remind myself that I may not get it and if I don’t, the worst thing I could do is show disappointment. Any advice? I’m excited but also a little freaked, as I’ve never had a chance to apply for a promotion before. And even if I do get it, I’m wondering if it will cause tension if I get it over people who have been here longer (I really prize a congenial working environment, not that that’s going to stop me from applying!).

    1. Alianora*

      It’s only natural to be disappointed if you don’t get the job. Obviously you shouldn’t wallow in self-pity, but I wouldn’t beat myself up over showing a little bit of disappointment.

      Whether you get it or not, it sounds like your relationship with at least one coworker will change. Honestly, it probably will be a little awkward at first, so I would brace myself for that.

  94. hbc*

    I’m pretty emotional about quitting the company I’ve been at for 9 years, so would appreciate any feedback whether what I wrote to the owner is inappropriate. The short version is that they basically demoted me six months ago without a single conversation about performance, tried not to call it a demotion (it’s a new, as-yet-untitled position), and then failed to deliver on any of the things I said I would need to stay and be effective. I announced I was quitting 2 months ago. Haven’t heard anything from the owner, who is one of my two bosses, both of whom are remote. He’s definitely a guy who mixes personal and professional stuff.

    He was at an event with other employees, who told me that he was asking about why I was quitting. I messaged him and said I heard and would be willing to set up a meeting if he was so interested. He basically said nah, but we could get coffee next time he was in town and talk. I wrote: “Well, my reasons for leaving are business reasons, and I’ll be done with business discussions with the company at that point unless there’s some kind of contractor agreement. If you’re talking about a personal/social meet up, to be honest, it’s going to be a while before I’m up for that.”

    I can’t retract it, but am curious whether people think it’s reasonably professional, an overstep, or it reeks of sour grapes.

    1. H.C.*

      It sounds like you’re throwing a little shade & implied that you are leaving under less-than-amicable circumstances, but nothing there’s nothing that’s particularly egregious. And you rightly passed the ball back onto his side of the court (i.e. if he wants to know why you quit, he needs to speak with you before your last day.)

      1. hbc*

        Thanks for the feedback! I think I might have erred on the side of more shade than I intended, but less than he deserved.

    2. Drama Llama*

      From his perspective it would sound a little strange, as you contacted him initially then told him you didn’t want to meet him (if I understood correctly?)

      I don’t think your message “reeks of sour grapes” but it unambiguously communicated your unhappiness to him. Maybe you’re okay with that since you don’t work there anymore.

  95. Anele*

    I have a second interview coming up for a position that I’m really excited about, and I think my qualifications are a good fit for the position.

    However, my boss requires a ridiculous amount of notice–like 2-3 months worth of notice–so that employees can train their replacement. She has been very vocal in the past about how unprofessional she finds employees who only gives two weeks-notice are, so I’m pretty worried about applying for new positions that require me to start ASAP. This position I’ve applied to would want someone to start two weeks after the job offer.

    I know I really don’t owe that much notice to my boss, especially considering this has been a pretty toxic working environment. However, I am worried about the possibility of her giving a negative reference in the future, especially because she is definitely the type to hold grudges. I wouldn’t list her as a reference anyway, but what if she’s contacted simply because she’s a previous employer? Is there anyway that I can try and mitigate this risk?

    Thanks!!

    1. Reba*

      Does she already know you’re looking to leave? I mean, the odds of someone who’s so punitive about this taking it well when her staff members go on interviews seem low… but that is a kind of notice.

      1. Anele*

        Thanks for your question–I had left out some major context. We had talked about my leaving back in January, and had agreed that there would be some sort of transition where ideally I could train my successor. However, my boss had really dragged her feet on putting up the posting and didn’t want to commit to determining what my last day would be.

        I think my boss is thinking that the transition will happen in June/July, but I know that job searches typically take months so I’ve already started mine in earnest. Every time I try to talk this over with my boss, though, she defers.

        I think I’m basically resigned to having her be a negative reference in the future, but maybe there’s a way I can frame this to future employers?

        1. Reba*

          Your boss is being a butt. But you knew that already…. I think you’re already doing what you can as far as preparing for your departure, and she’s dragging her feet and there’s really not much you can do about it. It’s her prerogative to live in denial and out of step with norms.

          Another thing you could do, if you haven’t already, is to create really good documentation of your job for your replacement. It might be worth presenting this to her with a very direct conversation like “I am doing all this prep to help the business transition, and I hope you will recognize that as well as my other work and be a positive reference in the future.”

          But yeah, sadly I don’t think you can *make* your boss be reasonable about this and give a good reference.

        2. The Other Thursday Next*

          The thing is, your boss doesn’t get to decide when you can leave your job or how much notice you give. Of course, 2 weeks is standard — asking for 2-3 months is so far out of the norm. Businesses should be able to continue to function if a person resigns. I’m guessing the reason your boss is dragging her feet is because she has no incentive to speed up the process because you’ve given over your power to leave your job. She’s holding you hostage in the hopes she’ll give you a good reference, but the upside is that if you’re interviewing for jobs while still employed at your current position, potential employers will not contact your current employer.

        3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          I think you already gave your notice, and it’s not your fault your boss isn’t taking action in a timely manner. You’ve essentially given her three months of notice already, with potentially another month to go! I think that if you can give her an extra two weeks once you officially accept an offer, you’re morally in the clear.

          I also think there’s an opportunity to salvage the relationship once you leave, especially if you’ve done good work in your time there. I left my last job under not-the-best circumstances; I was at BEC level with my boss, she knew it, and my work suffered. When I started looking again and knew I needed her as a reference, I reached out to ask how she was doing and give her an update on my life. When she responded positively, I asked if she would be a reference and she said yes. Your boss might not be quite so reasonable, but I’d suggest checking in after a few months (or maybe a year) on the new job, once she’s had the chance to cool down and presumably find someone great to replace you. Keep in touch from time to time so that when the times comes, you can use her as a reference. If she doesn’t respond well, you can keep that in mind and explain to future employers that despite doing good work for X years, your relationship soured when she didn’t feel you gave sufficient notice.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      2-3 month is an unreasonably long time to ask you to stay. Could you appease her with 1 month?

  96. Berry*

    It’s my last day of my contract and at this job! And I have no idea what I’m doing next.

    Besides jumping straight into full time job hunting, I was thinking of taking some time to travel. If I take significant time away (not likely, but daydreaming), and thus have a noticeable employment gap on my resume, how should I explain this when applying to jobs down the line? Would this be something I include in a cover letter?

  97. D.W.*

    Kids in the office. I’m not a fan of it, but I get that sometimes it’s unavoidable.

    Our office is kid friendly, but parents allow they’re kids to run around and interrupt us. One in particular constantly tries to get people to play with her and she talks nonstop. The others are just never with their parents and wander around.

    How do you feel about it?

    1. Snark*

      I mean, I understand that sometimes childcare falls through, but it’s totally out of line for kids to be wandering around, bothering people, talking, and the like. If your kid is old enough to stay in an office or conference room with a tablet or something, fine, but this is one circumstance where kids should been seen not heard.

      1. Curious Cat*

        Agreed. We have a couple people who occasionally bring their kid in at the end of the day if school gets out early, or whatnot, but the parents always keep them by their desk and give them a snack or toy to play with so they’re not disrupting everyone else. If it’s really bothering you, I think it’s fair next time to ask them to keep their kid by their own desk because it’s disruptive.

      2. FaintlyMacabre*

        Yeah, my siblings and I ended up at my parents’ work places a lot, and people were often surprised when they happened on us reading under a desk or behind a couch. We were all very shy, so perhaps we took the “children should not be seen” thing to extremes, but we knew we were in an Adult space and it was best of the best manners time.

    3. Sled Dog Mama*

      I’m not usually a fan of it, it’s just hard to navigate as the parent. But I will say I did have have to bring my kid with me for about half an hour the other day (she was sick and I got her from school, then hubby came too my office to get her). I made her sit next to me and she watched a DVD until hubby got here. No one realized she was here unless they saw her (in fact a couple of people were disappointed I didn’t bring her around to say hi) and almost no one realized she had left. I think it’s a know your office type thing. I don’t have a problem doing it if I’m really desperate or I know it’s severely time limited but I wouldn’t regularly because it’s hard for me to focus on work and watch her at the same time.

    4. anon24*

      I was at my dad’s office a few times as a kid when my parents didn’t have other child care. I would bring a book and crayons and paper and sit in his cubicle and be quiet. I always knew that I should not talk above a whisper and I should not talk to any of his co-workers unless they talked to me first, and that hey this is my dad’s job and I shouldn’t do anything to get him in trouble.

    5. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      I like it! I’ve never been disturbed by it.

      I prefer when people on parental leave bring their babies in but I’ll take an older child in a pinch ;)

      (Sniffly kid or kid out school = fine. Kid throwing up = begone! *waves garlic and crucifixes*)

    6. Tardigrade*

      I think your coworkers are seriously abusing this perk. Have you spoken to any of the offenders about it? Is management aware that this is causing an issue?

      1. D.W.*

        Unfortunately not, as they are all department heads and I seem to be the only one bristling. My colleagues love it when the kids come and frequently *babysit*.

        All of these parents have their own closed-door offices too

        I just ignore it and don’t engage, but it’s still grating.

    7. Anonymous Ampersand*

      I have taken my 7 y o to work once for one hour. (Hadn’t finished something before I had to collect him, took him back, kept him quiet.)

      I would have to be pretty desperate to do it again.

    8. Q*

      Kids should only be in the office if absolutely necessary. Only once in ten years did anyone have to bring her kid to my office. It was for two hours at the end of the day. He sat in an empty cubicle and colored. He was well behaved and only left his space to ask for where the bathroom was. If you’re gonna bring a kid to work, bring a good one like this.

    9. Mirth & Merry*

      Commiseration, my old job allowed kids and dogs which could have been cool if it was just chaos.

      Once my mom had to take me and my sister to work for a few hours, dr’s appointments or something like that. We got our own “office” and highlighted and stapled things! (talk about child labor lol) The only reason anyone else knew we were there was when they walked by to talk to my mom.

    10. Artemesia*

      I’d walk her back to Mom or Dad and say ‘Susie needs to be kept busy and I can’t be a baby sitter for her as I am on deadline; Susie, you need to stay here with Dad.’

      And there ought to be some management here as in ‘a parent who brings a child into the office in an emergency needs to supervise that child and make sure the child has activities and materials to keep them busy.’

    11. KX*

      I brought tweener children once, between Christmas and New Years, when maybe eight people were on the floor and it was for three or four hours. They helped the shipping people scan and inventory books. And had a lot of hot chocolate out of the machine. But I wouldn’t have the nerve to do it on a regular time of year day.

    12. Windchime*

      I would hate it. The only time I have seen a child in our office was a couple of months ago, when my coworker was meeting his wife and kids for lunch and they stopped in for a brief visit so we could see the baby. Kids running around in an office would drive me mad.

    13. Bea W*

      I don’t mind if:
      1. The kids aren’t sick. I had one co-worker who brought her SICK children into the office because her daycare would not allow them to attend while they were sick. I understand it’s a tough position to be in, but if your children are too sick to be allowed to attend daycare/school do not bring them to work where they can share their contagious whatever with everyone in the office. I also felt really bad for the kids having to hang out at some office while sick.

      2. The kids are properly supervised and not interfering with work getting done. Running around the cubicle area shrieking like it’s an outdoor playground is not okay office behavior. I don’t blame the children who are doing what children do. This is 100% on the parent to get under control. If you’re forunate, you have co-workers who are willing to help provide some distraction or supervision, but don’t assume this will be the case.

  98. AnotherLibrarian*

    I am looking for advice on what to wear to the dinner before a day long academic library job interview. I’m planning to wear corduroy pants, a white skirt, heels, caridgan and statement necklace. Is that too formal? Too casual? Is it too spring time for corduroy?

    (I recently lost a lot of weight and I don’t have many pairs of pants that fit me right at the moment and I am trying to avoid buying two new outfits rather than just one new suit.)

    2. Schnoodle*

      I think it’s fine. If you feel too formal, you can go down to flats.

      I might keep a second shirt somewhere just in case – dinner + white shirts never really mix with me. For some reason, food stains never get to a shirt with color but if it’s white, you bet my choice is only spaghetti and yeah…

    4. GigglyPuff*

      As someone who is about to do their third interview with dinner for a librarian job in less than a year (although that kinda sounds bad, lol), that sounds totally fine to me. As someone else pointed out if you feel too formal just go to flats. I usually do slacks, non-button blouse (since I tend to pull on those sitting down), and black, well I guess you’d say fake loafers or business shoes.

      But seriously you can’t mess up as bad as I did at the last one. I was so exhausted from the travel (had to leave my apt at 4am to get to the airport and was physically sick all day from a reaction to a new medication), that when I had dinner that night, I ended up salting my coffee, told the manager I salted my coffee, then declined his offer to get the waiter and get me a new one, and drank part of it. Yeah…

    5. Sara without an H*

      I have years of experience both interview at libraries and hiring for librarian positions. Your outfit sounds fine to me.

      BTW, good luck on the interview.

  99. NPwho*

    I need some advice on navigating an interpersonal situation at work and giving feedback to a new employee–

    I share an office with a senior colleague. I (mid-30s) am Manager of Tea Sales and Bob (early 60’s) is Sr. Manager of Teapot Sales. We joke around and tease each other a lot but it’s based on mutual respect and admiration. Mostly it involves him trying to get a rise out of me and me rolling my eyes at him. A few months ago I hired a new Junior Tea Salesperson, Jim (early 20s). Jim is very passionate about tea, eager to be helpful and make big sales. He is not always great at reading social cues but he is very responsive to feedback and constructive criticism. Jim has picked up on the relationship between me and Bob and has tried to join in. He has started teasing Bob that he does not work hard enough, that Jim should be promoted and that he is going to show Bob how to do his job. As you can imagine, Bob HATES this. I truly believe there is not any malice behind it and that Jim’s just imitating our relationship as a way of trying to fit in and get a reaction from Bob. (And, TBH, I think Bob is overreacting a little bit)

    Bob wants me to talk to Jim and tell him to knock it off. What’s the best way to have a conversation with Jim that helps him understand that this behavior is not welcome? I have warned him in the past that he can take his joking too far but he hasn’t gotten the message in this case.

    1. Snark*

      Be really, really specific and tell him that whether it’s intended as a joke or not, he doesn’t have a relationship with Bob like he has with you, and joking about getting promoted and showing him how to do his job is insulting and offending him, and that it needs to stop. And he’s probably going to push back, but it needs to be really clear that this kind of joking with Bob is off the table.

      Don’t police Bob’s reaction. It’s genuine.

      1. Tardigrade*

        This. You’ve built that kind of rapport with Bob, but Jim has not and probably never will.

      2. BenAdminGeek*

        This is perfect advice- if Jim’s not great at social cues, being this clear that it’s off limits is the way to go.

      1. Snark*

        There could be all kinds of office political dynamics at work here that make this kind of a hard position to agree with.

    4. bookartist*

      The best way is for Bob to speak directly with Jim. That way Jim truly gets the message since it will be coming from the source, and Bob doesn’t foist his emotional labor off onto you.

  100. DC cliche*

    I’m at the reference-check stage for a job with a partner org. They know that my boss is aware I’m searching — there’s nowhere else for me to grow, here — but for both internal-political reasons and the simple fact that my boss is a terrible manager who doesn’t have a strong sense of my strengths/weaknesses, I’m hesitant to put him as a reference. I’d rather put other coworkers with a better sense of my abilities and limitations. But would that be a flag? I’m thinking of putting references and then being like, “If you want to talk to Fergus, please let me know; I would just need to flag for him that we’ve discussed this.” Thoughts?

  101. Charles B.*

    So I have a question related to salary negotiation. Say you’ve been told a promotion is coming your way. You don’t know what the new title or salary will be. (And in fact you don’t know what the salary band is because the powers that be will not share salary info, but that’s a whole other issue.) Once the new title and salary comes through, how do you negotiate? Is the wording/approach the same as what Alison shared in the podcast this week? Or is negotiating the terms of a promotion somehow different?

    1. fposte*

      While I confess I haven’t listened to the podcast yet, I’ve heard Alison on this topic enough that I’m willing to say it’s not that different. “We’ve gotten you a promotion to King Charles! Your salary will be 10,000 ducats!” “That’s great! I’m excited to start! Is there any possibility of 11,000 ducats? When I’ve looked at market rate for inbred royalty, that seems in keeping with the job I’ll be doing here.”

  102. saradactyl*

    Today’s one of those days I wish I had separate PTO and sick days. I caught a friend’s cold and I’m exhausted and feel like I’m operating at 40% capacity at best, no fever but tired and ragged and just bleh. If I had sick days I would have called in and caught up on sleep, but our time off – personal, sick, vacation, everything – is one bucket and we don’t get to use sick time unless we’re out for more than 4 or 5 days. I’m also working with a smaller amount because I’m resigning in July and therefore got half my normal allotment of PTO hours at the beginning of the year, and I’m trying to save that PTO for interviewing for new jobs. Finally, we get what are called “occurrences” every time we call in that accumulate and I hate to risk an occurrence for something that’s basically the sniffles.

    It doesn’t help that my coworker that I sit next is being really rude and snarky about how I might be getting everyone sick and should just go home, and she’s trying to save her PTO and doesn’t want to get sick. As if I showed up to work today to get her sick at work on purpose and am trying to inconvenience her personally? This is the same girl who also showed up to work one time when she was running a fever because she didn’t want an occurrence, and she found out she had THE FLU.

      1. Saradactyl*

        Yeah if she wants to use that argument with me, she’s going to have to stop telling me about the days when she calls in because she just doesn’t want to come to work.

  103. mj*

    My sister-in-law is manager of a large public library in an urban area with pockets of wealth and pockets of poverty. We recently discussed this same issue. She is very concerned about safety in her library. They have security staff present all the time, but their job is to observe and report, not intervene. She has to intervene in security issues with patrons — fighting, creating disturbances, inappropriate behavior, banning people from the library, etc. I really worry about her personal safety. It’s a beautiful old library with excellent resources and programs, but lots of people loitering around, not really using the resources – just hanging out in the building.

  104. Not Today Satan*

    I quit (gave notice) at my job yesterday, without a new one lined up. I felt so much anxiety leading up to it, but when it was done I had no second thoughts at all. I was the one who posted about a reneged raise last week, but that was just the icing on the cake of dysfunction here.

    I know the common wisdom is that it’s harder to find a job when unemployed, but whatever. a) I was so burnt out and b) it was kind of a “golden handcuffs” situation. I kept applying to jobs and then turning down interviews because of the pay, even though I could easily live on a pay cut. Wish me luck everybody!

    1. Schnoodle*

      I stayed at a toxic job for the same reason. But eventually my sanity deteriorated and I put in a date in mind to turn in my notice. I was job hunting but getting to the final round and losing. I swear, once I had that date in mind, I could see clearly again and I’d be damned if I didn’t’ get a job right when I was going to put in my notice. I joke that before they could smell my crazy.

      Live your life. Take a pay cut if needed.

    2. hbc*

      Good luck! I resigned without an offer too, will probably also take a pay cut, but it was so toxic that I didn’t even have the energy to job search.

    3. UtOh!*

      Don’t think negatively at all, even about taking a pay cut, I feel more women than men think this way…you can and will get a great job, with a terrific company, that pays you what you are worth…don’t think of yourself as being less than for leaving a job without having another lined up by accepting lower pay as a “punishment”.

    4. Chaordic One*

      Well, when I was in your position I was unable to find another job. Even though I was applying for quite a few things, I was so burnt out that I didn’t apply for everything I should have. I, too, had been promised a raise that had been reneged at the last moment. Anyway, I ended up being fired (on the day before the annual profit-sharing bonuses were to be distributed). In retrospect I certainly wish I had quit the job before being fired, so I think you did the right thing.

    5. Windchime*

      I wish you luck. I took a pay cut from my previous job to my current job and it was totally worth it. It was humbling, to agree to a lower salary, but the benefit is that I now get to work in an office where the people aren’t toxic, I have natural daylight (windows!!!), and the benefits are really great. It was work the pay cut to not have to constantly feel that horrible feeling of anxiety in my chest.

  105. Jennifer*

    So at this point I am now skipping group lunches with my so called “team” because they all hate me. I felt somewhat bad about it (there were a few folks at this week’s lunch who like me), but I don’t want to spend any more time with people who hate me than I am contractually forced to spend, and vice versa. It ruins everyone else’s fun if I show up because of the whole public shunning thing. I can deal with the shunning when I have my desk in a corner and giant headphones on and I ignore everyone literally talking behind my back all day that way, but having to sit face to face with them at a table is more conspicuously shitty and awkward.

    I’m just sick of this shit. I want to be moved out of this office. That way they only have to see me at group events, and since we can’t have team meetings due to the aforementioned shunning around the table issue making everyone “uncomfortable.”

    1. Tardigrade*

      Wait, what? The fact that people are shunning and being horrible rude to you is making those people uncomfortable? And nobody else is stopping this?

    2. Eye of Sauron*

      So this seems really.. umm.. wow… not sure what to call it.

      Have you talked to your boss about this? Are they shunning you too? I think this has crossed normal office behavior line into weird and unprofessional. Any idea what caused this?

    3. Nana*

      I’m going to say this and please know it is coming from a good place.
      You didn’t say a lot of information, but if your direct supervisor or his/her supervisor are aware of the situation and are letting it slip, especially if overall you see them not being supportive of your work or your career advancement, than you should consider looking for work somewhere else. Usually if good supervisors see their teams not getting along they try to foster an atmosphere of collaboration of some sort, even if there is still some dislike between team members. They make people work together and I would imagine if they were aware of your current team dynamic they would try to create an air of cohesion in some way (for example coming to the lunch break and observing the dynamics, make people work on projects together, doing some teambuilding to ease the situation, etc.).
      If you are in a good, stable working environment with good bosses and this is just a on-off situation, maybe in that case you can consider doing something nice to your colleagues like inviting them to lunch, bringing them snacks,, etc, anything nice. But if this is a toxic work environment with some poor management from the top then there is a good chance that they can make you look bad (which is unfortunate because they are the ones shunning as you said) and it can hurt you. What I am concerned about is that your other teammates who are publicly shunning you would gang up against you in a way that can hurt your position or aim directly for your reputation, since you say they talk about you behind your back. I’ve seen people being let go in some similar dynamics and it’s absolutely awful because the bosses would believe anything being said about them.

      Weigh your options. I wish you the best of luck. Would not wish this on anyone.

  106. Leslie Knope*

    My fiance has been back in school (and out of work) for about five years now. He was laid off from his last job in spring 2013 and went back to school full time that summer for an entirely different degree. He finished last May and was having a really hard time finding a job in his new field. He messed up by not taking an internship – he thought his previous work experience would be good enough, but since it is entirely unrelated, he’s finding out it’s not. He really regrets not finding an internship.

    After 4 months of searching and no luck, he enrolled in another program though a university to get a certificate (also related to his new field). This program was also supposed to help him land a job once he was done. He just obtained his certificate last month and now he has resumed his job search.

    So far, the help offered by the university where he received a certificate has been pretty limited to reviewing his resume and giving him feedback on his portfolio. I think they misled him a bit as he was under the impression they would directly connect him with employers. Now he is at the point where he has been out of work for five years, and I’m really starting to grow concerned that this gap in employment will raise some red flags. He feels like he put in all this work to become educated in this new field, and he really wants to hold out for a job that aligns with it perfectly. I think he should just take a job right now – any job, really – because it always seems like it’s easier to get a job when you have one. I’d really like some outside perspective on this, if anyone has some to offer.

    *For the record, I haven’t been supporting him financially through all this. He had enough money saved up to get us through these past five years, but he is about to run out. I do not make nearly enough money to support the two of us when that happens.

    1. fposte*

      I wouldn’t see him as out of work for five years; I think he’s been out of work for either a month or 11 months, depending on how full-time the certificate program was. Certificate programs are kind of a mixed bag, unfortunately; a lot of them are more cash cows for the institution than useful for the certificatees. In most fields I know, I’d consider the institution where he got his degree last May to be the place to strengthen connections with; get an alumni network going, explore any career service support they offer, etc. I think whether he goes for taking a job or not is mostly a financial call, but if the certificate program was full time I don’t think the job history would require it right now.

      1. Leslie Knope*

        Thank you – I believe the certificate program was technically part time. He attended class three days a week for anywhere from 2-4 hours at a time. He put off the job search during this time because he really struggled in undergrad and felt like he needed to focus on what he was learning during the certificate program. Plus I think he was really banking on job placement help when he finished.

        1. fposte*

          Then that’s more like 11 months, but it’s still not five years. I’d go back to the degree program, not the certificate, to see what they can offer him. How competitive is this field in your area?

          1. Leslie Knope*

            It’s pretty competitive for entry level, although mid-level + there seem to be plenty of opportunities. I’ll suggest he go back to where he got his degree for career help. Thank you!

    2. SoSo*

      In addition to fposte’s advice, is there any place local to you that he could volunteer his skills to get the experience he needs? If he’s not having much luck finding a job in his field, maybe it would be better to find something he is qualified for and volunteer on the side until he has enough experience built up to move into his desired role?

  107. Anon16*

    I’m an Executive Assistant who’s job is (in part) trying to get VPs at my company to submit things for their boss, who is also my own boss. I’ve been getting a lot of pushback/excuses from them, which my boss said is to be expected. I’m a recent grad and this is something I feel a little uncomfortable with, especially since I’m still fairly new.

    Any advice on language/wording? Ways to feel confident in this regard?

    Thanks!

    1. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

      A few things I’ve used:
      — Name dropping helps, i.e., “Big Boss asked that I get this information from you.”
      — Give deadlines is original ask making sure to pad them slightly in the case that they don’t complete it by the deadline.
      — Follow up on the deadline given saying you need it immediately
      — Understand that this is a completely reasonable ask. You are not overstepping. You are doing your job.

      1. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

        Also, I didn’t address dealing with the excuses you’re getting. Maybe using language like, “I understand that you’re busy, is there someone you can delegate this task to?” (if delegating is an option, it might not be) Or “I understand you’re busy, but Big Boss needs this information by Date.” My mantra always is polite, but firm.

        1. DC cliche*

          You can also give a why, which is helpful: Big Boss Needs the Information by Date to Compile for the Board.

          If they have EA’s as well, cc them. Sometimes it’s just they have too much on their plate.

    2. Amy*

      Do you have your bosses inbox – if so you’re best to send an email from that inbox and say on behalf of ‘grandboss’.

      Also give a deadline and grab it and put it in your tasks and chase them up.

      It’s hard though – boy it really is.

    3. SpaceNovice*

      Look for any bottlenecks/points of annoyance and address them if you can; ask them if there’s something you can do to make it easier. Make it less painful. Make sure people can come to you with questions about what they need to turn in without feeling stupid. Also, when they give you stuff, always thank them. Frame it as helping them get the stuff they don’t like to do get done easier. If there’s useful data that can result from the items they have to turn in, make sure they get access. Eliminate unnecessary steps/information.

      Cheatsheets are useful in cases where they don’t turn in these things often. Something one or two pages that they can print out and put somewhere.

      That’s how I got an engineering department of 40+ people to go from grumbling about a process to proudly adhere to the process and have data they could use on their yearly reviews.

  108. Foreign Octopus*

    I was watching the highlights of Mark Zuckerberg’s testemony before Congress this week and one of the senator’s asked a question that I thought was odd.

    He asked whether Facebook knew about the political affiliations of their employers. I’m about 75% sure that this information falls under the same banner of discrimination that – are you married? what do you earn? what’s your religion? does. Am I wrong?

    1. fposte*

      Political affiliation is not protected federally against employees in the private sector, though it is protected against employees in the federal sector. Some states do have it as a protected class, though.

    3. Student*

      It’s the only thing that matters to a Senator – are you on “his” team or “the other” team? They focus pretty heavily on political affiliation and can’t really fathom that it’s not on the top of everyone else’s agenda.

    4. BenAdminGeek*

      Almost all questions by senators are rhetorical. They know most silicon valley folks skew liberal, so they’re asking to prove a point- either a D asking to say “we’re the good guys, you gotta stop destroying the world like a supervillain” or an R asking to say “you’re a supervillain, and youre employees are like-minded henchmen destroying the world.”

      Also, fposte is 100% right that I would not expect senators to understand employment law.

  109. Sled Dog Mama*

    Just had my performance review, I did great! (got a 3.5/5 overall and anything above 3 is considered exceeding expectations), I got an 8% raise without asking (was totally getting ready for that to be a fight). I’ve been put in charge of a major certification project for my department. All of this and I’m worried about my job security.
    I am a shared employee (50/50 between two sites for the same company) one of my sites is doing fantastic, we’re all our a$$ off all day everyday, we’re #1 in the company (out of 26 sites that provide our services) in customer satisfaction. The other site is struggling, our volume has been way down for the last 6 months, my manager has been regularly admonishing everyone to leave as soon as they have completed all appointments so our hours stay down (I’m exempt so it’s 8 or 0 for me but I’m included in the regular admonishment). My boss sucks and isn’t going to change, actually he doesn’t suck he’s just a really poor manager, he’s one of those people who has risen above the level of the stuff he’s really good at. He is really good at the day to day stuff in the department but he sucks at management (see admonishing staff over hours but allowing appointments to be scheduled so far apart that staff have hours of downtime in between, hmm I’m not a manager but I think I could fix that one for you).
    We just got a new VP a month ago and I’m excited that she really seems to be a good manager and is focused on making some changes that will really help the department that is struggling.
    I’ve got a meeting set up with her in a couple of weeks to talk about the certification project, I’ve trying to decide if I can bring up the job security with her during this meeting and how. I’ve tried talking to my manager but I can’t get anything besides evasion from him. I don’t know if this is because he doesn’t know (and sucks at managing), he does know and thinks he’s helping by not saying anything or if maybe the rumor I’ve heard at the other site that he’s one the way out is true.

  110. The New Wanderer*

    TL; DR: Anyone who’s been the first in a newly created role, what are good interview questions to ask the hiring manager?

    I’ve got a phone interview with the HM next week. I’m not concerned about the skills needed and I feel I have the right experience, but it’s a brand new role to this company. The recruiter said a lot of the first year would be figuring out the scope of work and the responsibilities. From what I gather, the role is not a member of an established team but rather an independent agent who would coordinate between various teams. I think the management personality of the HM would be a big factor, but how do I go about assessing that?

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Ask them what they see as success in this role. Do they have defined things they want this role to accomplish?

    2. Brunch with Sylvia*

      I have and asked what gaps the employer was looking to fill by creating the role.

    3. Eye of Sauron*

      “What do see as potential challenges to coordinating between the various teams”
      “How involved do you anticipate being in this role”
      “What is your preferred management style”
      “What do you see as successful traits in your employees”
      “How would the people who work for you describe your style”

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Thanks, these are really helpful! I’m a little concerned that the answers to all of these will be “Not sure yet” but I hope by asking I will come across as invested in the success of the role.

  111. Funfetti*

    I’m looking for good follow up language regarding a job I interviewed for way back in January, but then was put on hold in February. I’m pretty sure the job was put on hold due to staffing changes – i.e. the position’s boss, CFO decided to quit. Then two other subordinate positions left. Everything has been for the most part filled since then, with the exception of this position.

    I am still very, very interested – what is good phrasing to check in without being that annoying person?

    1. CTT*

      What did they tell you when it was put on hold? I would try to mimic the language they used (i.e. “I wanted to see if this position is still on hold due to [reason]”), that way you’re checking in using their terms rather than just “Any updates on the position?”

  112. DoctorateStrange*

    There is a full-time position coming up in my workplace and I hope to get it. Please send me positive vibes, I have been waiting a year for this.

  113. Phryne Fisher*

    How do I deal with my annoyance of a coworker? Let’s call him David.

    To be honest, I quite like David. The whole team does.

    What annoys me is that David is not reliable at all and has a tendency to shut down when stressed. The rest of the team treats him in an indulgent way; they cover for his unreliability by completing his work for him and making sure any new work is not assigned to him.

    He’s stressed, but so is the rest of the team. I am tired of coddling him.

    I expressed my frustration with David to our manager who said she sympathizes with me and to treat David with kindness. Of course, I don’t disagree with this advice, but this advice doesn’t make me not annoyed.

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      Is it possible that David the Annoying is going through something very difficult personally that the manager can’t discuss? Or perhaps a medical issue (read mental issue) that is impacting how the employer treats him for a period of time? Perhaps a reason that he’s being treated with kid gloves? If none of that applies, and he’s just getting preferential treatment because he’s a favorite, I have nothing but sympathy for you. These people have existed in every one of my workplaces. It is what it is. I have just tried to pretend that they don’t exist and prepare myself mentally for doing a portion of their work.

    3. FD*

      You can treat him with kindness without covering for him. Unless your boss specifically stated you need to do his work for him, I would be polite and considerate, but stop doing his work for him. In regards to how your coworkers behave, it might be worth making a conscious effort to accept that you’ve decided how you’re going to treat David; they can do the same.

  114. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

    I’ve decided to get my master’s. I will be working full-time (my employer will pay for the entire degree, hallelujah!) plus I have two small kids. I am nervous, and it has taken a lot of encouragement from the people around me to take this leap. Plus, my husband is done with his bachelor’s this December and will be able to stay home with our kids, which has also made making this decision easier.

    Now that I’ve made the decision, I am excited, but also really nervous for the amount of additional work I’ll be taking on.

    Any advice for something who is going to be earning a master’s while working while trying to maintain relationships with their family?

    1. DoctorateStrange*

      I’m applying to a full-time position right now and am going to school for my MLS. I’m actually in an FB group right now and I see a lot of people that are getting their Master’s while having families and having demanding jobs such as teachers and whatnot.

      Just remember, you’re not alone. Also, contact classmates to see if there is already a private FB group for your program and, if not, make one. My mental stress has honestly lessened when I joined mine.

    3. Oxford Coma*

      Make a list of things you can let slide during the time you’re in school. I gave up on the housework that I considered “nice to have” but not essential. So, no ironing got done for a few years (we switched to wash-and-wear and no Fashion Police were called), I stopped oiling/treating our wooden furniture (it survived with just dusting and spill clean-ups), and we ate a LOT of salads for dinner (healthy but still quick).

      Outsource what you can, if it’s affordable. My husband loves to detail his car and putter in the garden on the weekends, but he made do with a bi-weekly run through the touchless car wash and grocery-store vegetables for a few years.

      If being alone with your kids is new to your husband (it is for a lot of guys I know, unfortunately) get him started doing it BEFORE you start your masters, so the panic phase is over before your program eats up your attention.

      1. Longtime Listener, First time Caller*

        Good ideas. I’ve already given up on ironing and treating wooden furniture, so I guess I’m ahead of the curve :)

        Fortunately, my hubby has done the stay-at-home thing before and is completely capable of taking this on.

    4. Gollum*

      I
      1) ran my own business full time
      2) went back to school
      3) got my CPA license after being out of the field and out of university for more than 25 years
      4) have a husband and tween age kid
      5) have elderly, ill parents

      and then got a regular job within a year of getting my license which had been my end goal.

      so.

      #1 it is IMPOSSIBLE to do without the full support and buy in of your family. I can’t emphasize this enough.
      #2 you will be sleep deprived. Asknowledge it for a fact and appreciate that it will not last forever.
      #3 meal planning is your friend
      #4 how do you eat a camel? one bite at a time! In other words, don’t get overwhelmed with the whole picture. Take things one step at a time.

      2. Ray Gillette*

        I managed without the full support of my extended family (extended family called me ungrateful and stopped talking to me when I couldn’t change plans at the drop of a hat because I had thesis work due).

        1. Ray Gillette*

          However, I will say that if your friends and family love and support you, they’ll understand that for a year or two you won’t be as available as your have been.

    5. Q*

      I actually did a lot of my homework at work. Not necessarily books out and reading chapters but more like writing papers or internet research. I’d always keep a Word doc open and jot down ideas as they came to me. Or I’d have my note book sitting on the desk and think out one question at a time. This is fantastic if your workplace is accepting and you are able to do this and get your work done.

    6. E*

      I completed a 2 year master’s program online and finished just a couple weeks before having my son. It was helpful to me to review the class schedule and set aside evening/weekend time specifically for reading the assigned chapters and then completing the assignments. Sort of an add-on to scheduling your work tasks. Definitely try to keep an evening or two per week free from classwork if you can, for family time. As someone else has said, figure out what household tasks can be “let go” a bit, or meal plan to save time during the week.
      Also, I usually spent a few hours at a go on either Saturday or Sunday for the more intense assignments, like writing papers.

    7. Kuododi*

      Mazel Tov!!! The one this I’d suggest is to make sure you always take time to read a bit hear and there from material you find enjoyable. I had a professor during my second Master’s degree tell the class, he chronically struggled with being able to read for pleasure as his time.was full reading professional material. To this day, no matter what or how much professional material I have to read, I make a point to always have something on hand pleasurable to read. Thanks so much…. Blessings on your new course of study and research

  115. Formerly Arlington*

    I have a new direct report who seems to need special accommodations about needing to rest. Travel is part of our job and often involves back to back meetings, and he will ask whether a meeting is “necessary” and if he could go back to his hotel for a nap, and has complained about meetings prior to 8:30 am. I am baffled by this as otherwise he is a great employee and actually will log on late at night sometimes to finish things up. I can’t tell if he has some sort of endurance issue related to meetings or if he’s being a little whiny? I’m honestly not sure how to handle it and have pushed back on the rest requirements, but he hasn’t stopped sending them. He will say, “OK, then I will be at the 8:30 meeting” and then the next time I send an invite for an 8:30 meeting, he will again question if there’s not a later time for the meeting. Not sure if there’s anything I can say to nip this in the bud?

    1. CM*

      Have you talked to him about this directly? You could explain that the expectation of people in your group is that you travel, have back to back meetings, and are available between 7 a.m. and 9 p.m. (or whatever). You can also ask him what’s behind his requests to nap and push back meetings.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Ugh, I would be that person. But then I also work in an industry where 9:30 or even 10 AM start times are common for my department, so 8:30 meetings are out of the norm. I’d be pretty pissed if I took a new job and found out after the fact that it’s an early-morning culture, because I’ve built a certain lifestyle around being able to roll in at 9:30 and I wouldn’t take a job that requires me to come in significantly earlier than that unless they REALLY threw a lot of money at me.

      That being said — if early starts are not out of the ordinary in your field, then I think you can say to him, “Early morning meetings are a part of this job, and I need you to accept them without comment except in rare circumstances. Can you do that?”

      At that point he has the option to tell you if there IS something preventing him from doing it (whether that’s a medical condition or a previous commitment), and if he does, you figure out whether you can or should work around it. If there isn’t, then you’ve made him aware that 8:30 meetings are a requirement of the job, and that he has to stop complaining about them.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        PS: if early starts are not common in your field, but are part of the culture at your company, then make sure you tell candidates that during the hiring process!

    3. Argh!*

      Sounds like a night person, i.e., sounds like me!

      I hate hate HATE morning meetings, and I will stay up too late and check my work email in spite of my rule not to do so!

      … then there are people with babies who don’t get any sleep and don’t want to admit that to people at work.

      … and people with elderly dogs that need to potty at 3:00 a.m.

      If for some reason there’s a preference for morning meetings, just put it out there. “You can expect this to happen a lot in the future. We prefer 8:30 because… xyz and you are an essential employee for abc reasons”

    4. Eye of Sauron*

      Has your new report actually asked for ‘accommodations’ through whatever policy you have or is he asking for special treatment?

      What I’m getting at is does he have a medical condition that he’s specifically and legally asked for? My answer would depends on the situation.

      If it’s a reasonable accommodation ala ADA then I think you need to work with your HR about how to go about framing them and getting them implemented. If he’s being whiny, then I’d explain your workplace norms and expectations. For example; “Yes all meetings should be considered necessary unless I indicate otherwise. Unless you have a medical condition that you are formally requesting accommodation for then requests to nap during the day will not be granted. If you do need to speak to HR about a condition covered by the ADA, I encourage you to do so. You are expected to attend meetings at their scheduled time without question unless there is a legitimate need, such as being double booked or scheduled to be out of the office/on PTO”

      You mentioned new hire, is he also a recent grad/new to the workplace? If so you might need to do a little more coaching about norms and expectation. Although if he’s not… you still need to coach.

        1. Formerly Arlington*

          He has another medical condition (a food allergy) but did not mention anything about sleep accommodations. I don’t want to pry, but I can try to gently ask.

          Is 8:30 am really early?? We’re marketing team at a blue-chip company. I think we all try to schedule meetings at 9 am, but sometimes during a business trip, 8:30 is needed.

          He’s in his early 30s and this might be his first “big company” experience, but he’s certainly not new to the workforce.

          1. Fiddlesticks*

            As a person who STRUGGLES to get to work by 9 every morning, it’s not that 8:30 is “early,” it’s just that it robs me of 15-20 minutes more of sleep I desperately wanted…but from my perspective, that’s a problem I need to manage on my end. I think your employee’s behavior here is really strange, and unless there’s a legitimate accommodation involved I’m calling work norm shenanigans.

          2. Thlayli*

            Yes 8:30 meetings are very early. Most workplaces don’t even start till 9. What’s weird is that other people in your workplace ARENT questioning the need for 8:30 meetings.

          3. Trisana chandler*

            In my job, we have meetings at 7 or 7.30am regularly! But I work in healthcare.

          4. Someone else*

            It depends. What time does your office usually start working? If your standard office hours have people in at 8am (or 8:30), then 8:30 isn’t early for a meeting. If people come in at 9am everyday, except for when you schedule a meeting for 8:30, then yeah, 8:30 is early. If you’re in at 9am usually, and the 8:30 meetings in question are when the other person is traveling and it’s 8:30 where they are but later where you and everyone else is, it’s not necessarily early but I find it’s polite to try to factor in time zone differences when scheduling if it’s possible, although I realize depending on how many time zones you’re crossing it may be impossible to catch everyone during normal business hours.

            1. Formerly Arlington*

              Most people are in the office where I work at 8, and that’s not terribly early to me compared to previous jobs where most were “work ready” by 9. Maybe it’s an industry thing. I will say it’s a ghost town by 5.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I agree – sounds like a night person (me too), but also someone in need of coaching about your company’s norms. As a night person I understand the desire for later than 8:30 am meetings, but the fact that his requests can’t/won’t be accommodated and yet he persists means that he needs it clearly explained that 8:30 meetings are gonna happen and attendance at all meetings is mandatory.

      Starting a new job with significantly different functional hours than he was used to is tiring. Hopefully he’ll get used to the new schedule quickly and knock off the requests unless he needs, and asks for, formal accommodation.

    6. FD*

      I would have an honest conversation. “I understand that mornings may be difficult for you. That said, in this role, having early morning meetings is common and it’s not going to change anytime soon. This is because [x, y, z]. To be successful in this role, you need to be at those meetings, without complaining about the time or asking to go back and nap. With that in mind, does this role make sense for you?”

      It sounds to me like this person is probably a night owl and/or finds travel particularly draining. This might just not be the right role for him.

    7. o.b.*

      I don’t think anyone’s mentioned this yet—in addition to all of the above, I would re-evaluate whether he actually does need to be at every single meeting. If yes, OK, y’all need to figure this out. But is it possible that his attendance isn’t actually necessary at every meeting? I know it can be so frustrating to waste your time sitting through meetings that actually have little to nothing to do with you. It sounds like this probably isn’t the case here, but if so then that moves the goalposts a bit.

  116. LBG*

    Weird situation. Our office administrative officer (not a manager of anyone) has a key to my office. This week, while I was out of the office, she allowed someone into my locked office so he could use it to work. We have other spaces for visitors to work. My office is locked because I work on client sensitive matters (I’m an attorney) and they haven’t provided me with another location to lock up sensitive materials. So without telling me, so I could move those documents/materials, she has exposed client information to someone who is not an attorney. It was so inappropriate. I am certain he did not look through those documents, but the fact that she selected my office (other than using the open spaces and/or asking my permission) was so over the top wrong. However, I’m not sure how to best address it. I’ve already expressed that it wasn’t acceptable, but I think I need to do a more formal follow up. This isn’t the first time she has overstepped, and in general, we do not get along. I don’t need her to get my job done, but I think I’d rather she not have a key to my spaces. That would require me to go to my boss to explain, and that would go over like a lead balloon. So I think I’m stuck with what I’ve told her already – that it was unacceptable, and she risked exposing client sensitive materials. It does sort of creep me out that she has unfettered access to my office when I know she doesn’t like me.

    1. Temperance*

      Who is her boss? I would ask for the key back rather than asking a partner to intervene.

      I have sympathy for you. Our office manager hates me, for some reason. Whenever someone does something she dislikes (like using an office for file storage without approval), her first instinct is that Temperance did it. (It’s never me!)

    2. JHunz*

      Can I ask why it would go over like a lead balloon for you to explain to your boss? If it’s because client-sensitive information was exposed, then surely disclosing that and preventing it from happening again is more important than pretending it didn’t happen until the inevitable next time.

    3. Jules the Third*

      I think you have the right to ask for her key. You’ve got sensitive materials in your office, and she has shown that she does not safeguard it. Just keep it focused on that, nothing else.

    4. Lefty*

      Is there anything that compels you to notify the client that their information may have been compromised? We have to notify our customers AND offer to pay for a year of credit/identity monitoring… If you have to offer similar, could you use that to leverage a better situation? “Boss, we need to pay $x for monitoring for client because their information was exposed when PERSON worked in my office. I know this is an unexpected expense, so I’d like to make arrangements to prevent future issues. Would you be able to make sure that only the facilities manager and I have keys to my space? Or could you provide me a locking cabinet, like this one that costs $x to lock up the documents?”

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Write up a memo explaining to her and the relevant boss(es) exactly how much it will cost the company in (1) litigation when you have to defend against a client suing you for breaching your duty of confidentiality, and (2) the increase in your malpractice insurance rates for having this happen.

      Also agree with Lefty that you may be stuck notifying your clients that there has been a possible breach and their files may have been exposed to access.

      1. LBG*

        I’m a gov’t attorney – my client is the gov’t. Self insured (no malpractice insurance). I likely will notify my boss about the potential breach. Although I’m certain there was no actual harm.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          Right on — then maybe put in your memo some speculation about how the President will Tweet about your “Leakin’ BossName” when he finds out about this!

  117. Nonprofit to ForProfit Transition*

    Does anyone have experience with this? I’ve mostly worked at small nonprofits, and I’ve gained a lot of experience–but experience in a LOT of things that don’t necessarily paint a coherent picture. For various reasons I’m thinking of switching to the for-profit world. But they seem so much simpler in a way that I don’t know if they understand me- e.g. they want 2 years data analysis experience, and I have 2 years data analysis experience, but under a Program Manager title, and they never call me.

    1. Ali G*

      I worked at a non-profit for almost 9 years and then went to a for profit. My situation was a little different because I was in a field that brought me into contact with industry regularly, so people knew me and my skills.
      However, I doubt they are discounting you on just your title. So either your resume/cover letter needs work, or it’s something else.
      One thing I will mention is that some of the people I met when I interviewed (the ones not familiar with my work/organization before) definitely had a bias against “non-profit” workers. They asked me things like “do you think you will do well in a for-profit environment?” and “you know things get really busy around here.” It was like they literally thought that all non-profits are just crunchy people in Birkenstocks hanging out all day. I was like, dude, I fly all over the world, run meetings, and WROTE that standard that is sitting on your desk. I think I’m good.
      All that to say, you might get some help from people in the field you are trying to break into. There very well could be some language in your applications that is turning people off.

      1. Nonprofit to ForProfit Transition*

        Haha, it’s funny that they think nonprofits are chill… the main reason I want to move to for profit is I want to stop doing the jobs of 3 people!

    2. data monkey*

      After college I spent three years at a non-profit, then worked for a big healthcare provider (sort of a corporate non-profit), and moved from that job to an actual for-profit. During the first move it helped that my job title included the word data, and my work was 100% data-related. Being able to speak to successful data cleansing projects and data process overhauls was also helpful.
      One of the biggest issues moving between sectors has been the tools – the small non-profit used minimal, very specialized data tools; while the bigger corporations have licenses for more expensive software. Feel free to email me if you want to talk in more detail!

    3. Q*

      I think this is something you could address in your cover letter. Such as…I’m well suited for this position because of my extensive data analysis experience when I did blah blah blah project.

  118. GigglyPuff*

    Last week I mentioned I had a video interview coming up, well I had it. It was shorter than it was supposed to be (not actually the first time I’ve had this happen in an interview), but part of the reason was, I could hear myself talk on their end! So with the delay it really through me for a loop, so my answers weren’t really in-depth, and I should have said something but I didn’t. My friend at work said I should mention tech difficulties in the follow up email, so I was going to, but surprise! Got an in-person interview request later that day! Fastest response I’ve ever had!

    Now I get to do another presentation, yippee. Also while the interview is actually little under two hours away, I decided to get a hotel room the night before because the uncertainty of traffic and getting up that much earlier would stress me out so much the morning before. I mean if it was two hours in metro traffic I wouldn’t, but this is about two hours in my city traffic plus several towns away. I’d rather be more relaxed, less clothes wrinkle and plus free hotel breakfast.

    1. Camellia*

      I think you are smart to get the hotel room and save yourself the stress and uncertainty.

  119. Brooke*

    It seems like the office culture here is that people will interrupt you whenever they want, and you have to IMMEDIATELY stop whatever you’re doing to do what they want instead. If you say, “Yeah sure, just a minute,” or “Let me finish this email first,” or any variation, they just launch into their thing anyway, and if you still say, “Hey, just a minute,” they get angry. I wonder if there’s a way to set this boundary more firmly, or if I just have to go with it. For context, whatever I’m working on is usually given to me directly by my boss. Also, I usually get really focused on a task, and then if I get interrupted, it takes me a long time to figure out what I was doing.

    I’m not any of their managers (they’re peers). Actually, my bosses are the only people who actually respect when I say, “Sure, just a minute.”

    Things seem to get a bit tense when I have to tell people to wait several times, because they get super frustrated. The last time it happened, I just gave up and stopped everything I was doing (for my boss). Normally I’d think, “Eh, who cares if they get frustrated,” except someone higher up here has told me that my job security rests on people liking me.

    Does anyone have any advice?

    1. fposte*

      I’d bring this to my boss. “I’m really happy to help people, but the culture here seems to be that it’s important for me to do it immediately even if I’m working something for you, and I find that it takes me longer to complete your projects as a result. Can you help clarify the priorities for me so I understand how to balance them in the moment?” It may be that saying yes to people in the moment is more important, and if you get that message from your boss, you know that’s just how the job rolls.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      I so, so hear you. Ever since every ad agency ever decided open offices were the way to go, this has become a thing. I read somewhere that the workday is turning into people just endlessly bothering each other — over IM, stopping by your desk, texting — and I can’t disagree. A couple of months ago I FINALLY got moved into a shared office, so at least I have a door to shut when I truly need uninterrupted time. But that often doesn’t work — people just knock on the door and walk right in without waiting for me to invite them in!

      I think any company with an open office should issue some kind of visual symbol — a red flag, a magnet, whatever — that people can put up on their desks to say “really need this time to work, come back later.”

      But since most places don’t have this…I’m afraid the only thing that has ever worked for me in an open office when I want not to be interrupted is to find a space away from my desk where I can work. If someone can’t find me at my desk, they usually just send an email or try to find me later, rather than running around hunting me down, whereas that same person would not have been deterred by an “I’m on deadline now, can’t talk” had I been physically present at my desk.

    3. Pollygrammer*

      How many are regularly doing this? Can you instigate a conversation with each offender at a quiet moment to say that you know it’s not their usual culture but your working style really requires a few minutes to find a good stopping point before beginning a new discussion? Not just a you-need-to-stop-doing-this but a you-need-to-stop-doing-this-and-here’s-why.

  120. The Only Constant is Change*

    I am in need of some advice on how to deal with massive changes at work. My industry is known for constant changes, however my job has been fairly stable. I’ve had the same manager who I adore for the entire time I have been there. I get along great with my coworker that does outside sales (mainly because she is out of the office all day), and I know my job inside and out, and am a higher performer. My company has clear goals and expectations.
    Since January, massive changes have occurred and it all came to a head about 6 weeks ago. 4 out of the 5 people directly on our team have switched roles, left, or been moved to another office. My manager is no longer my manager, and I will be getting a new one any day now. My coworker (outside sales) has now moved inside the office and it’s already a bit rough. I even moved out of my office and am now manning the front desk. I also went from salary to hourly, having to clock in and out (company changed everyone at my level to this as of Jan., I make less the $47k or whatever that exact exempt wage level is ). I am the one person out of the 5 that has not changed roles, and I didn’t ask for any of these changes to be made! The expectations and goals that we have had up to this point have all changed. I am sad over the loss of my manager, who had been wonderful to me.
    I’m all for keeping it fresh and keeping up with business, but how do I acclimate to this much change? It’s like I have an entirely new job, but not one that I applied for or accepted. I’ve built up my seniority here, and for the first time ever, the thought of looking for a new job and starting one seems so overwhelming and negative, because I like what I do and I don’t want to start at the bottom of the ladder again somewhere else. I would be so thankful for any advice.

    1. Q*

      Maybe try to thinking about as a new job? Granted its not one you sought out or even wanted but it is what you have to deal with for now. I’d recommend start looking for a new job. You may find that what you have even after the changes is still pretty good. Or you might find a better job. Either way its a win win situation.

  121. Brooke*

    (To clarify the third paragraph — I meant, I stopped everything I was doing to do something for someone else, who wasn’t my boss. Even though the thing I was doing before was for my boss.)

  122. LDP*

    I had a random semi-work related question come to me recently and I wanted to see what everyone here had to say about it. If you were dating a local politician/someone running for office locally, would you be obligated to disclose that to your boss/coworkers? My thinking is that it could get into dangerous territory bringing it up in the first place, but if it came out later, that might be worse?

    For what it’s worth, I’m not personally in this situation, I’m just curious in a “what if?” sort of way.

    2. Kay*

      If you work in certain industries or for certain companies (or if you’re a government employee) then yes. Others, probably not. I had a friend who, before she accepted a job with one political figure had to disclose that she was in a (secret, at the time) relationship with another political figure.

    3. EmilyAnn*

      I’m not sure why in any circumstances you’d be obligated to disclose to your company that your significant other was running for office. This only changes if there is conflict of interest issues, like when Hilary Clinton was working at an Arkansas law firm when her husband was governor. Something like that, then yes you’d need to disclose. Otherwise why would you tell your boss/coworkers who you’re dating? If it comes up naturally in conversation, then you can go into just as much detail as you’d share if you were dating a painter, engineer or another professional.

    4. Q*

      I don’t think you are obligated, unless its a conflict of interest for your company, but I also don’t think it will kept secret for very long. I would think you’d be expected to attend functions with the candidate and maybe even end up on the news or in the paper depending on the office being sought. Around here no one pays much attention to city council people but if you’re dating the mayor you’re fair game.

  123. VictoriaQ*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to research/how to tell when a benefits package is competitive? I’m planning on graduating this year, and while I’ve read a lot of great advice here on interviewing and examining salary, there’s not a lot on benefits. I don’t have the life experience to know what ‘great’ insurance looks like, and the little research I’ve attempted mostly finds me articles for employers. Is it based on personal need/feelings, or is there hard data so you can compare benefits to your local area’s average?

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      I think you can probably find the norms here on elsewhere on the internet regarding vacation, sick, PTO, etc.

      With regard to insurance specifically, it is not uncommon to ask for the brochure/access to the website that lists all the details of all of the plans you’d be eligible for once you receive an offer. What is competitive to you, in terms of insurance, may not be competitive to me. I’ve seen absolutely dismal insurance offered by companies that claim their benefits package is competitive.

      You really have to consider their plans, your own health, any dependents you’ll be covering, and what your out-of-pocket costs will likely be. I personally plan for a best case, mid-range, and worst case scenario when making my decision. If you are young, single, and in good health with a decent savings account of $5,000 or more, you may be fine with a high deductible health plan that covers an annual visit and not much else. That plan would never work for me as the person responsible for covering the entire family with chronic conditions and multiple doctor visits each month. It’s really about your own situation and if what they offer will work well for you. And of course, you’ll need to factor in the premiums.

      I hope this is helpful in some way. Also, if you’re in the US and have older siblings, friends, parents or anyone who has been in the workforce for a while, they might be willing to show you their company’s insurance options so you at least have some frame of reference for the types of plans that exist and their coverage levels, although this could really vary from employer to employer.

      1. Q*

        I agree with this. I really really wanted my healthcare to be with Company A but a lot of places only offer other, not as good companies. All else being equal, if I had to choose between a job that offered A and job that didn’t, I’d take the job with A.

        Also, the prices can vary widely. I used to pay $60 twice a month at old job. I now pay $30 once a month at new job. I have a friend with a different job and she has the same coverage I do but pays $300 a month.
        So even if you don’t have a company preference, compare how much you will be paying for coverage each month.

      2. BenAdminGeek*

        I’d echo this with some additional info. The phrase “high deductible plan” can mean a lot of different things. It could mean a PPO with a $1,000 deductible before they pay anything and then they pay 90% after, or a true HDHP with a $1,350 deductible for you and then they pay 80% after, but you can then put tax-free money in an HSA. As you can imagine, different plans work for different people, so knowing what folks mean is really key.

    2. Mirth & Merry*

      I have been *trying* to do a little of this lately,
      Basically I search Glassdoor for companies in my industry and stalk the benefits section. You definitely start seeing trends and notice deficiencies. I will say the companies I am looking at are all very large international companies, if I were looking at smaller companies I would focus more on similar type companies that were local even if they are a little different industry.

    3. ronda*

      Also…. most companies make at least some changes to their health benefits every year. And sometimes they make major changes. I wouldn’t sweat small differences between offers.

  124. strawberries and raspberries*

    Other than finding new employment (which is on the horizon and overdue anyway), does anyone have any tips/motivation on getting through your work when it’s very plain that the majority of your team does not like you? I wanted to think that I got along with everyone and that the quality of work I was doing was at least enough to get baseline respect, but the past few weeks it’s become increasingly obvious that I’m the odd one out, and it’s showing up in a lot of different ways (from little things like conspiratorial laughing when I say not-funny things to work-impact things like not showing support or enthusiasm for my projects even when they’ve been assigned to assist). I’m not looking to be friends with anyone here, so in theory it shouldn’t bother me that much, but there’s a lot of bloviating to upper management about what a great solid team we are and how we all respect each other and then I’m openly excluded from things and undermined constantly and made to feel like everyone just doesn’t want me here. I’ve been badly bullied a lot in the past (at school, in other workplaces), so maybe I’ve got heightened sensitivity to it, but it still really stings, and worse, it’s making me feel really demotivated to do my work.

    1. Argh!*

      I’d be sensitive to that too. Can you talk to the boss about it? Is there a chance for a transfer?

      My only response to people who don’t like me is to be a sweet to them as I possibly can. It may not make them like me, but if they have any conscience at all, it would bother them to keep being mean. And that thought makes me happy. I wouldn’t dream of making someone feel badly about having a big nose but I love the thought of making a jerk feel badly about being a jerk.

    2. o.b.*

      I’m so sorry you’re working with such a crappy team. For me, it’s been very empowering to shift my mindset to “I don’t care if they like me, I just need to get my work done and behave in an exemplary and professional way, rude coworker(s) be damned.”

      Be polite but very, very cool. Call them out on any behavior that gets in the way of finishing your work, if you must. Ignore them when they laugh (easier said than done, I know). Focus on getting your work done. Make specific asks of them, in writing, so that you have backup documentation and can act politely bewildered when they’re not pulling their weight. (Accept that this will annoy them. Enjoy that a little.)

      If there’s a pattern or some specific offenders, talk to your boss—frame it as “this is an obstacle to me getting my work done; how should I handle it?” No personality conflicts, just you trying to do your job and asking about the preferred way to address some bumps in the road.

      If you’d like, if you can give some more specific scenarios about how they’re not helping on your projects as assigned, I would be happy to offer some scripts I’ve had success with.

      Also—try not to let it get to your head. (Again, easier said than done, I know.) Be good to yourself, don’t blame yourself, and try not to waste any extra time or brain space on these people.

      1. o.b.*

        Also also—I loathe the attitude “I won’t respect you until you prove you’re worthy of my respect.” I respect everyone until the moment they prove they don’t deserve to be respected, and I resent it when people don’t give others the benefit of the doubt.

  125. Panda*

    Doing a happy dance today! I mentioned in an open thread a couple weeks ago that I had a internal interview for a promotion. Well I was offered the job this week and I start on 4/30. With it came a 15% raise and an office!

    Thanks Alison for having this blog because I learned so much about the work world. I joined my current company almost 7 years ago after being a stay-at-home mom for 16 years and only temping in another part of the company for a few months. When I found tAsk a Manager, I read all the archives and look forward to the posts (and now, podcasts) each day. By reading, I learned norms for the office, how to deal with conflict, how to set expectations with the people I had to coach, and handle my manager when I didn’t agree with her decisions. And for this job, I was able to write up a killer cover letter and resume and answer all the situational interview questions well. So while I did work hard and with excellence, I feel that Alison and the commentators here share some of the credit. Thanks!

    I will not be managing people yet, but I hope to advance further. In the meantime, I’ll keep reading.

  126. Cousin Itt*

    I have all my fingers crossed and am desperately hoping I get an interview for the job I applied for this month. I’m stressing a bit because the company is very prestigious in the notoriously hard to get into field I want to work in, but I did meet every point of their person specification.

  127. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    I wanted to share that my spouse has had several interviews and has been asking the Magic Question to very good response. Thanks AAM for ALL the interview advice!

  128. The Curator*

    Japan trip. Been back since Tuesday and crazy jet-lagged. I feel like I am walking through mud. My brain is on half-speed and I am anxious about errors. Trying to do the “next right thing” and just get through the day.

    2. Parenthetically*

      My jet lag coming home has ALWAYS been worse than going somewhere. It’s so rough. Get outside as much as you can!

  129. Louise*

    I am a hiring manager and I have a candidate that has applied three times and interviewed twice for multiple positions. She impressed me on the second interview for that particular position. (I was not in on the first interview.) She checked “yes” for “is it ok to contact her previous supervisor.” I did so, and they told me I should not hire her. According to her previous manager, she misrepresented some of the accomplishments that she took credit for in the interview. (She did not list this person as a reference.)
    This is a small industry and she has since moved to this area. She will undoubtedly apply for future openings as she wishes to make this her career.
    I saw a previous post about not telling the candidate about bad references because the reference is giving you information in confidence. My instinct is the same with contacting a previous supervisor. I would not want her to get in touch with them to ask why they said these things.

    If she were to ask for feedback, what would you say? There are more qualified candidates would be my first instinct, as that is true. The “human” part of me wants to tell her SOMETHING but the hiring part of me wants to let it be. Is that what you would do?

    1. CM*

      This may not be good advice… but personally, I would tell her what the person said, just stating the facts without any editorializing. If her other references were good and you liked her during the interview, it’s possible this reference is an outlier. But if you don’t want to get into the middle of it, it’s reasonable to just say there were more qualified candidates.

    2. BRR*

      If you were impressed by her, could you try and ask questions to get a better understanding without tipping her off? What about her other references? I wouldn’t disclose what the reference said though. If she asks for feedback I’d go with more qualified candidates or against policy to give candidates feedback.

    3. Q*

      I’m inclined to think that the previous manager maybe wasn’t truthful or maybe did not understand the extent of her involvement in the project. How often have you heard about a person doing the majority of work on a project and then someone else getting all the credit? There’s a reason she no longer works for this guy, and this might be it. If she is a good fit without this person’s reference and you would have hired her before speaking with him, then I would move forward. Also, you could invite her back for a second interview and drill deeper into the project and her skill set if you really want to make sure.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        Deeper into the project and maybe her relationship with previous managers, making sure you get her to offer some detail about that manager. I have a former manager who, if pressed a bit, I would admit I did not leave on great terms with, for reasons I would at least vaguely allude to. (Her strong preference for fellow parents, for one).

      2. Thlayli*

        This. Ask her questions about the things the reference said she lied about. There are two people and one is lying. You can’t be sure which one so look into it a bit more.

  130. Recruiter*

    Yesterday’s post about the person wanting to set up an Instagram for their dog made me think of all of the candidates that I have interviewed (thousands) and what set them apart. I realized that the ones that I enjoy the most and remember usually have an interesting hobby, have traveled to cool places or do some type of volunteer work that they are passionate about. All non-work related things. I’m curious to know if a) you found that this worked for you while job searching or b) do other interviewers experience the same thing?

    1. fposte*

      It sounds corny, but for me it’s people who are able to bring vividness or commitment to what they’re doing; I remember fabulous answers to ethical questions, tell-me-about-a-time examples that I wouldn’t have thought would work but ended up bring brilliant, and people who come with a general air of competence and ownership.

      1. CM*

        Me too. I remember the people who wow me — “competence and ownership” is a great way to put it, it’s usually a combination of really knowing their stuff and communicating it in a way that conveys confidence, insight, and humility. I don’t remember anybody’s hobbies or non-work related things — I generally forget those immediately and have to re-learn about them if the candidate becomes a coworker.

        1. Recruiter*

          So interesting and right on. I think because I recruit for such a wide variety of companies and positions, that the final candidates that make it to the point of meeting with the actual employers usually do have that confidence and expertise, and so when I have 3 or 4 well-qualified candidates, it is the slightly personal things that set them apart-one recent example would be a marketing candidate that just spent 2 years teaching English in Thailand. Some might look at that as a negative thing by stepping back from their career for a while, but it fact, since the candidate was all-around awesome anyway, it make them more interesting to talk to. I don’t delve too deeply into the nitty-gritty of a position anyway (not my job) so as long as the qualifications are met, I have the time to chat and get a better picture of what might make a good fit for the candidate.

    2. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      I have two facts about me that NEVER fails to elicit comment (in a good way) in my cover letter template; that I started taking ballet lessons in my late 20s and that I love it even though I suck, and that I’ve won a Jeopardy-like trivia competition on national TV.

    3. Q*

      I’m a Girl Scout leader for a troop of high schoolers. I try to work that in and also bring up that I don’t have any kids of my own but we started the troop when my friend’s daughter was in kindergarten. It shows dedication to volunteer work, that won’t interfere with my job, and now they know I won’t have any kid related problems. Because even though they aren’t allowed to ask about kids, as a woman of child bearing age, I know that can be an unconscious bias during interviewing. In fact, I just found out I only got this job because the man they offered it to first turned it down.

    4. bb-great*

      This makes sense to me–those people are more vivid/memorable because you got to see them as whole people and not just their work persona. I think it’s human nature to connect with that more. Of course having the coolest hobbies in the world won’t make up for not having the skills or being a bad fit, but you do have to work with these people 40 hours a week for most of the year, so it’s not crazy to me that you’d gravitate towards candidates who you “click” with more.

    5. Student*

      I don’t know if this is you telling us what makes them memorable for you, or if that’s what lands them a job.

      If that’s what makes them memorable to you – their idiosyncrasies – that’s one thing.

      If those are the ones you decide to roll with, because you like their particular hobbies, then it might be time to admit to yourself that you are doing something that’s not in your business’s best interests – you’re hiring people because you like their hobbies instead of based on their qualifications.

      If you take this approach, you’re also missing out on people who are a bit slower to warm up to strangers in favor of strong extroverts.

      1. Recruiter*

        Oh no, that is not what I am saying at all. They get the job based on their skill set and experience, along with being a good cultural fit for the environment. As you may or may not know, one of the jobs of a recruiter is to develop a relationship with both the client and the candidate. Those side details about both parties are part of what helps to make a good fit. I don’t actually make the hiring decision, that is up to the company. I am external recruiter-it’s my job to find multiple good candidates for the company.

  131. PTO*

    When you take a day off (PTO), do you have to tell people why? I’m new to my job and work directly with a woman who loves to gossip. If I tell her why I’m taking the day off, she tells everyone. (She does this when I’m not around.) I feel like I have to tell her because otherwise I might be labeled as too secretive or quiet. My boss approves the PTO, so I don’t know why any other explanation is needed. Other people take off and sometimes I know why, sometimes I don’t, but it’s none of my business.

    Any thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      So if you tell her you *know* you won’t like what she does; if you don’t tell her you think there’s a *chance* you won’t like what she does, and plus you get to keep your privacy. So I vote for #2. “Oh, you know, just the usual catching up. What are your best tips for making use of a day off?”

    2. CM*

      No, you don’t have to tell. I would be deliberately vague but truthful. You could say something like, “Spending some time relaxing,” or “Nothing special.”

      1. Q*

        Yep. Just keep it vague. Oh, just some stuff I have to do. She doesn’t need to know if that stuff is a doctor appointment, an exciting adventure, or sitting in your pajamas all day watching movies.

  132. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    Looking for advice/email scripts for emailing possible interviewees for my dissertation (first time contacting them), especially (but not only) around scheduling. Can I just give a vague date range like late May/early June, or is it better to be more specific and give actual dates and times?

    1. Reba*

      I usually write something like, “I hope to do the interviews during late May and early June. Are there any days in there that would work particularly well for you?”

      If they are then vague, you start putting out specific dates.

      Good luck with the research!

      1. Reba*

        Oh, I think I may have misunderstood what interviewees means in this context…. all the same, wish you well finishing up the degree!

    2. Overeducated*

      Give the vague date range. For research interviews you want to schedule around their availability as much as possible since it is a necessary part of your work but not theirs. If you give actual dates and times you risk them thinking “oh, I have a doctor’s appointment that day, guess I won’t do the interview.” Better to find out what kind of time constraints or availability they have first.

    3. Canadian Teapots*

      A quick note, as someone who’s been through a dissertation + defence – is this customary for your institution that the candidate themselves can interview and solicit for examiners? In my institution, getting the internal examiner was pretty informal and some contact would be unavoidable, though preferentially done through a supervisor and the department. But getting the *external* was a Big Deal; it’s actually against regulations for the candidate to contact any such examiners and doing so can be grounds for at the very least delaying the defence.

      I’m mainly asking for:

      1) to find out the differences in institutional cultures and regulations,
      2) to make sure you’re on the right side of your own institution’s regulations.

      In any case, good luck on your dissertation examination!

    4. JJtheDoc*

      For context, I earned my doctorate several years ago at a California university, using qualitative research methodologies. I solicited interview participants using a range of several weeks, and had more interview candidates than needed. A colleague listed several specific dates/times in specific locations (i.e., “5/2/xx, 9am to 12:30 pm, City Library”) with similar results – more potential interview participants than required. It also helped that we both indicated the estimated length of the interviews, so there was less guesswork for those intrigued enough to want to participate. And of course, YMMV!

    5. School Psych*

      I did interviews for my dissertation research study. I gave a vague time period in the initial recruiting(March-April) and then had them choose from a bunch of specific dates. I used a doodle poll where you list a bunch of dates/times and people can pick what works for them. I then sent confirmation e-mails and a reminder e-mail the week of and day of the interview. People frequently bailed on their schedule interview times, so it was really nice to be able to go back to the poll and be like, “How about this date you listed for a rescheduled interview? Does that still work for you?”

  133. LateApp*

    I applied for a job the other day, but my application submission was after the deadline. I’m confused about why their system accepted the application after the job posting had expired, so I’m concerned that my resume will be held in limbo and not actually make it to the applicant pool. Is it worth emailing HR to see if I’ll be considered for the job, or do I need to put it out of my mind and be pleasantly surprised if I hear back (as you would do if submitting a not-late application)?

    1. o.b.*

      You can email. You’re not trying to circumvent the hiring process, just looking for clarification (and peace of mind!). Be prepared for the worst-case scenarios of (1) you missed the deadline and they are inflexible, sorry!, (2) someone interprets your email as sooooo audacious and is offended—but you don’t want to work for them anyway, (3) nobody ever replies. So email them, move on, and let it be a pleasant surprise if you’re in the running.

  134. new to food*

    Hey all,

    I’ve been doing admin work for over 10 years but have somehow managed to avoid doing food ordering until now. It sounds so easy but I’m completely flummoxed as how to avoid ordering too much or too little? Making sure that there is enough variety and vegetarians and vegans aren’t forgotten. Anyone have a foolproof formula?

    Thanks!

    1. EmilyAnn*

      Work with the place that you’re ordering with. A good one will help you determine how much you need for your numbers. Every place varies so the restaurant/caterer will have a good idea of what quantities you need. You always want a 5-10% cushion of extra. For the special food requests, get an idea of how many you need and follow the guidelines above.

      If you need help picking a place, reach out to your network and they may have ideas. Sandwich shops were always my go-to for casual lunches. They have salads and vegetarian sandwich options. Burritos are another good option that allow for variety.

    2. TheLiz*

      2/3 vegetarian to 1/3 not, or even 3/4:1/4. Carnivores always steal our food, forgetting that the small vegetarians’ platter is all we can eat! (Vegan food tends to be less generally appealing, but even then a 3-bean salad or similar can look pretty darned tasty.)

      Also, if it’s feasible, raw washed veg with dip on the side is unobtrusive but suitable for very nearly everyone. (There will be some ultra-Orthodox Jews and people with weird allergies but at that stage the onus is somewhat on them.)

      1. CBE*

        It’s hardly stealing. The problem is when there is no main course/entree that is Vegetarian/Vegan and the sides (like the bean salad) are presented exactly like any other side dish available to all. The “small vegetarian platter” is NOT a main course/entree.
        I think it works best when there is a clear main dish for all (and more than EXACTLY the number of vegetarian/vegan, too, and many people eat meatless sometimes) and then an assortment of sides, some of which are Veg and some are (maybe) not.

        1. Someone else*

          What I was picturing in this example is more like: there are six trays of sandwiches. One has veg sandwiches. The rest have meat. That sixth is the veg platter, and that’s why it’s best NOT to order something like 5 trays of meat sandwiches and 1 of veg, even if the number of vegetarians is much smaller than 1/6. Because people who do eat meat will still take the veg sandwiches. See also: do not order 5 pizzas of which 4 are pepperoni and 1 is cheese.
          I definitely agree there should be at least 50/50 vegetarian food to not.

      2. Q*

        I love this! But seriously, lean heavy on the vegetarian side. At my old job we would often order pizza and a lot of people wanted the pepperoni and bacon and sausage but I always made sure they got at least one plain cheese since that is what I like. Then those meat lovers would take one slice of that and two of my plain and it was so irritating. This also assured that the only leftovers were meat pizzas so those guys got seconds or had leftovers the next day. We all paid the same amount but I’d get two slices and they’d get three meals out of it.

    4. SpaceNovice*

      We cheat at my current office and everyone orders their own thing from a menu at least a few hours before whenever we need the food. I’ve also seen people vote for places to get food from. We are generally aware of food restrictions in our office but you should ask about allergies and food restrictions to be sent to you privately. Food restrictions are a good way to reduce the number of choices you have, in some ways making it easier.

      You can also ask if there’s a certain restaurant that your office typically orders from and what, but make sure that this was already done with the idea of including those that have restrictions.

  135. Friday Fan*

    My colleagues are going to a bar after work… where I used to work. I didn’t tell anyone I’ve worked there, because I’m out of that industry now, but there is NO way I can go!!! This is a pretty important event, even though it’s technically optional. This is the bar where I was harassed by management (and considered suing them for it because I have a ton of proof) and I remember just picking up my last paycheck caused SO much psychological torture. But even putting that aside, I feel like it would be really bad if someone recognized me, and said something to me, and then I’d have to come up with some sort of lie….. ughhhhhhh.

    Too bad though. The drinks there are really good hahaha

    1. Eye of Sauron*

      Tell them you won’t go since you learned they water down their drinks and their food made you really sick one time.

      Chances are they’ll pick a different place :)

      Sorry to hear about this, definitely awkward. But if it becomes a normal hangout you may have to either tell them why you don’t go there or try going (understandable if you don’t want to).

      1. Pollygrammer*

        I would even say “they have a really bad reputation for harassing their female employees and I’m not comfortable supporting them.”

    2. Mickey Q*

      The good thing about bars is there’s so much turnover the people who harassed you may be gone by now.

  136. SuperPoodle*

    Is a Linkedin profile really necessary? It seems to be de rigeur, but I’m both a very private person and someone who doesn’t want certain people to know where I work for safety reasons. I had a Linkedin profile for a few years, which was terribly out-of-date and didn’t reflect my last couple jobs. I checked it maybe twice a year and didn’t use it for networking, so finally I decided to delete it outright, but some friends say I should have one.

    My work history is mostly in public libraries (not as a librarian, but in circulation or related areas), though I am now working at an academic library. Public libraries in my area don’t seem to take Linkedin to account at all, which is why I figured it was largely unnecessary in my industry, but I’m not sure about academic libraries. For what it’s worth, I’m content at my current position and don’t want to job hunt any time soon. But is deleting Linkedin somehow shooting myself in the foot? Is it like having a credit history, and not having one makes things harder down the road?

    1. ExcelJedi*

      It depends on the field.

      In my experience, it’s been necessary for some IT jobs (without, you can seem a little out of date). But in my current field (higher education administration & nonprofit work), I’m the only one with a really robust profile, and I don’t think my hiring manager would have ever thought to look at mine.

      In your case, I think you’re probably fine without, but it doesn’t hurt to have.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Unless you’re in an industry that relies heavily on networking, I think you’re okay not having one.

    4. Librarian*

      Academic librarian here! I don’t have a LinkedIn (I find those “X wants to connect with you” emails to be very annoying) and that has never adversely affected whether I got the job. On the hiring side of things, if a candidate has one, I’ll glance at it just because I’m a librarian and like to do thorough research ;-) but it has never made any difference whatsoever.

  137. Strawmeatloaf*

    Has Alison done anything on trying to get internships? I need to do that (hello being way far behind) and I’m not really sure how to start when there hasn’t been one offered, nor is it advertised, but has been suggested and I need to make a cover letter for it. Of course I don’t expect someone to write it for me, but I just need to know what to address in it so and how I can suggest an internship somewhere that may make one but doesn’t currently have it available.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’d suggest hitting up the “internships” tag on the right under Categories.

    2. Alianora*

      When you say “has been suggested,” who suggested it? If it was someone at the company, I would mention that in your letter and also ask their advice about how to frame it. If it was someone who doesn’t work there (like one of your parents) then the chances of them creating an internship for you are much smaller.

      1. Strawmeatloaf*

        It was the sheriff of my county, suggesting to ask the sheriff of a neighboring county.

  138. nonny*

    The director of my unit recently resigned in a hurry to take a lower-level job elsewhere in our larger organization. Because of the speed and some other oddities in how it was announced, I think everyone is assuming the resignation was not purely voluntary. I’m now wondering, what are best practices for managing an involuntary leadership change? How open is it wise to be about what happened? I get the desire to allow exiting leaders to save face, of course (there’s a reason that “I want to spend more time with my family” is a trope). However, transitions that are very abrupt seem likely to encourage speculation. What’s the least bad option?

    1. Argh!*

      They may have no choice but to be secretive. If there was a law broken, there may be further actions down the road, or the person may have to be separated from a complainant if there was harrassment.

      I prefer openness because the imagination can fill in gaps with super crazy stuff. It also has a chilling effect on the rest of the staff not to know how bad something has to be for something like that to happen. It’s happened where I work and people are really afraid of retaliation because they don’t know what happened. How can anyone take chances and innovate in this environment? And who wants to collaborate now? Nobody.

      I happen to know the details and none of the people who are worried really need to worry, but I can’t tell them what happened!

      1. nonny*

        Yeah, this is basically the outline of my thoughts, too (that they can’t say more but I wish they would).

        It’s unfortunate because there were rumors of harassment, and so if that’s what happened it actually speaks well of upper management, in my opinion! However, lots of times that kind of behavior goes unpunished, and it’s hard not to worry that the real explanation is something less comforting, e.g. rapidly shifting priorities on the part of someone higher up the food chain, which might come to affect the rest of us as well.

        Ah well; we’re all here until we’re not; no sense worrying too much, I guess.

  139. elwm73*

    Thanks, Employer, for trying:
    Received a packet of seeds for Earth Day wrapped in 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper in a sealed envelope.
    Included with the letter on the paper was a note asking me to recycle the paper.

    1. Nanc*

      What kind of seeds? Tree seeds? So you can grown your own replacement paper?

      Yep, this is one of those times where you have the employ the Miss Manners idea that it’s the thought that counts even when you’re thinking “you shouldn’t have! No not kidding, you really shouldn’t have!”

    2. A.Ham*

      On the flip side of that, I once got a postcard for earth day that was literally made out of recycled paper with seeds in it- so you could just plant the whole thing. I thought that was kinda fun.

    3. Eye of Sauron*

      Make sure there aren’t any plant seeds that are considered invasive to your area!

  140. Kazp*

    Hey everyone! I am the manager of a small specialty store (but only on paper – in reality I am more like an assistant manager – the owner says he wants a manager but won’t hand over enough autonomy…but that’s a whole thread alone. Anyway…) and am helping to hire my replacement. I know from experience that the owner is terrible at interviewing, and I am looking for some things we can ask to get at the skills we are looking for. I think we are good for things like customer service and technical expertise, but what can we ask to assess:
    – assertiveness and decision-making/ability to do what needs to be done
    – communication (within the team mostly – only one person is on most of the time so keeping everyone in the know is important)
    – attention to detail and time-management for the more routine tasks

    Thanks in advance!

    1. o.b.*

      A great catch-all: “___ is crucial to this position. Can you tell me why you think you have the right skills/are a good fit?”
      “How do you stay organized and on top of deadlines?”
      “Tell me about a time you missed a small detail or made a mistake, and what you did to remedy it.”
      “Tell me about a time you had to make a tough decision.” Although that’s imperfect, because they may be good at decision-making but not have had a role that allowed them that opportunity or authority.
      Communication—I don’t have a good suggestion, sorry; this is a little vague. What kind of qualities are you looking for here? What kinds of communication (method, frequency, content)?

  141. Katharine*

    I work for an association that regularly hosts cocktail hours and meet and greet parties for our members and sponsors. I never know what to do or say during these events. Besides just general pleasantries and work related duties (for example giving our name badges, talking to catering staff) what are some go to ways to engage with people? I’m not really “networking”, but getting to know members. I’m a bit younger than most people at the parties and my position at the association is pretty low on the totem pole. I don’t want to be a bother to any of the big wigs, but I do want to seem engaged and conversational.

    1. Kathleen_A*

      I interact with our members a lot too, and I find that the usual conversation starters usually work pretty well, at least as an icebreaker. E.g., “What do you do/did for a living?” “Where are you from?” “I like your shoes!” (Yes, I totally talk clothes with people who I can tell care about their clothes.) “I read an article about ___(some topic that has something to do with your association)____. What do you think?” Or you can talk about things involving the city/town where you are headquartered – or the weather, believe it or not. There are very few people I talk to who aren’t eager to talk about The Winter of 2018 That Just Will NOT End, for example – or the potholes they had to dodge on the freeway on the way to the event.

    2. Hellanon*

      Look for invitees who are also standing around talking to no one & engage them in conversation! Since you are working the event, making sure the invitees are enjoying themselves is part of the job – you can start the conversation anywhere, but getting it around to them is good, because then you can introduce them to other if it comes up.

    3. NoTurnover*

      I worked for an association, too, and when talking to members I would usually start with things related to the event or the association: What did you think of the speaker? What do you think of the venue? Are you on any committees this year? Are you planning on going to Annual? Most people have opinions, and sometimes I’d also get useful feedback or be able to solve a problem for them.

      Of course, you have to stay professional and make sure that any opinions you offer in return are positive or neutral so you’re not criticizing your colleagues or employer. Maybe they did a really terrible job with vegetarian entrees, but you don’t want to end up saying that to a member.

  142. KL*

    About a year ago, I took a job with significantly more work and more stress than I’ve had in the past. It’s something that I really enjoy, so it’s worth it–but I’m really exhausted and something has got to give.

    The good thing is that I have more disposable income than I’ve had in the past, so I have the resources to throw a little bit of money at some problems. For those of you who pay for things to take up the slack in your personal life, what have you found gives you the most bang for your buck? For example, I’m definitely going to hire someone to clean my house–it’s just not feasible for me to get it done anymore. Does anyone have other ideas? FWIW, I’m single and don’t have any kids.

    1. ExcelJedi*

      Meal services. In my area, you can get places to make you healthy meals for the week and deliver them to your house on the weekend, with dates and reheating instructions for each. I haven’t used them, but I have friends in healthcare who do 12 hour shifts, and they swear by them on those days.

    3. Snark*

      The house cleaner is the big one for us; that made it all possible. Maybe even someone to do any yard maintenance and so on.

    4. Oxford Coma*

      Combining chore + time has been the most effective for me. So, I don’t change my own oil anymore, but what REALLY makes it worthwhile is using the garage near my work that will pick up/drop off the car too.

      I’ve also switched my GP, dentist, and eye doctor to offices near my job, because my commute is long enough that getting an appointment near my home would require using PTO. Now I can get an end-of-day appointment that will let me work through lunch and then just leave a half hour early. (Note that this does not apply to the veterinarian….minimizing the time spent caterwauling in the car is still the #1 priority there.)

    6. GRA*

      Someone to clean your house every week (or two), yard care, snow removal, and online grocery shopping (sadly no delivery in my area). These have all saved me tons of time and let me enjoy the free time I actually have!

    7. Bend & Snap*

      I have a cleaner and a personal chef service. The latter sounds fancier than it is–for high-end clients, he cooks in the home, but for me, he does 4 meals and 4 sides and drops them off or me every once in awhile.

    8. AnotherAlison*

      I hired a cleaner today! I had one about 10 years ago, but now I’m traveling to work out of state M-F, so it was a must-have. I’m wondering if there is anything you can do on the work front. I’ve been spending a lot of time screwing with my expense reports and scheduling my travel, and it’s ridiculous. If you could get an assistant at work, that may help. (Or, if not, maybe a personal assistant at home. I’ve seen some ads for women with part time businesses to run errands for you. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a high end full time Hollywood type of job. )

  143. Overeducated*

    In a week full of bad work news, the one bright light has been seeing the photos and tweets of Senator Duckworth bringing her newborn to vote in the Senate. I don’t have political aspirations at all so I wouldn’t have expected it, but it’s meant a lot to me to see a woman showing that equality doesn’t mean being treated exactly like a man. It also shows that conflicts aren’t always an issue of individual women having to choose between family and career (which has been the case in my life) – sometimes structural fixes can be achieved and false choices avoided.

    Babies allowed in the Senate: check. Next on the agenda: national paid parental leave, please.

    3. Mom of three*

      I think Senator Duckworth is awesome and I agree that we need national paid parental leave.

      But sometimes I feel like the only mother on the planet who thinks that babies and children do not belong in the workplace at all.

      1. Fishsticks*

        I feel that it’s a bit different here purely because the Senate would not let her vote while on maternity leave or vote somewhere other than the voting chamber. So her only option was to bring her baby with her and either leave her with an aide (which probably isn’t in their job description) or take her on the floor to vote. I definitely agree about children in the workplace, but I just feel this is a very unique situation.

        1. Murphy*

          Yeah, this. If she was allowed to vote some other way, that would be fine, but the only other option wasn’t wheelchair accessible.

      2. Mom of two kids and a dog*

        You are not the only one. But I am also opposed to people bringing their pets to work. So maybe I’m an anomaly who feels that only those there to work should be at my workplace all day.

      3. Overeducated*

        I don’t want to bring MY kids to work, I want real meaningful parental leave so I don’t have to. In almost any other case I’d be reacting with horror that a new mom had to go back to work at 2 weeks.

        But being a sitting senator is a very specific position of great responsibility where your work can’t just go on hold or have a temp fill in for a few months, her physical absence makes a meaningful difference to the country, so in her case it is appropriate. Her workplace is incredibly different from mine, so we don’t need the same solutions, but I respect her and am encouraged by her example.

  144. Annie Edison*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to choose your career path?

    Right now I work as a “teapot clerk” in the teapots department of a large public agency. I absolutely love everything about my job and this organization. I’ve been here a few years and have done super well here, my boss wants to see me move up in the organization and we’ll be meeting in a few months to discuss what my next move could look like. Needless to say, career development has been on my mind a lot lately.

    I have two major options I can choose: become a caseworker with this agency, or ask them to sponsor me to take classes to become certified as a “teapot specialist”. Right now I’m leaning towards the latter, but I flop back and forth. I’ve made a big pros and cons list and done a lot of research into what my career could look like with either route. They’re actually quite different, and I don’t know which one is best for me. And that doesn’t include all the other options I could consider (other areas of my agency, starting a new career from scratch, etc) I’m in my mid twenties, and it feels like whatever I choose now will set the tone of my career for a very long time.

    How do you decide what it is you want to do? I want to have a fulfilling and meaningful career and I don’t want to do something I’ll end up regretting.

    1. SpaceNovice*

      Since you’ve got time, read up on articles regarding both. Talk to coworkers you’re friendly with to learn more about what they do. And definitely see if you can get flexibility to shadow or do something similar before committing.

      Also: congratulations! I hope it goes well for you.

    2. FD*

      Honestly, there’s all this pressure that you have to pick your One True Career and it will Define Your Path Forever.

      In my experience, both with my own career and watching others’, careers are usually quite non-linear. You tend to end up in a very different place than you thought you would. For example, so far, my career aspirations have gone:

      Math Teacher > History Professor > Hotel General Manager > Freelance Graphic Designer / Researcher > ??? > Person Who Helps Put Together New Things + Freelance Web Designer

      Each step along the way has actually been quite important and has contributed skills to the stew that let me take the next step. But I never would have anticipated my current role when I was starting out.

      Which is to say, you don’t have to feel like what you’re deciding now is going to set your role forever. It will affect the path you take, but either option has the potential to let you have a full and fulfilling career.

      You might find it helpful to read So Good They Can’t Ignore You by Cal Newport. He debunks a lot of myths in regards to careers and his book has been really influential for me.

  145. TheLiz*

    I submitted my thesis to the plagiarism check software today! One draft, complete and entire. I then have a week of redrafting and comments and I AM DONE! So very close to freedom now!

  146. AnonAndOn*

    I haven’t been in the open thread here in a while due to life pulling me in other directions, but here I am!

    Unemployment/underemployment thread: How has it been going for you trying to return to the full-time workforce?

    My updates: My temp job ended last week (on a positive note – they said they’d be a reference for me) and I’m back to looking for a job (I never stopped when I was working at the temp job, but now I have more time to devote to that).

    1. Effie, who is wondering*

      You sound very positive and on top of things, good luck with everything!

    2. GraduallyGettingThere*

      I’ve got three interviews! Week started badl, after jumping through hoops to get into a temp agency and seeing they had a job, that I thought would be perfect for my experience and the jobs I wanted (and had been applying for) they told me I wasn’t qualified for the role and sent me like photocopying admin roles (I have years of admin and more complex work under my belt.) Felt really down about this because if I wasn’t qualified for the temp job, then I was unlikely to hear back from the jobs I’d been applying for. But instead I’ve got two interviews from jobs I applied to – all like the temp job they said I couldn’t do and one from an out of the blue recruiter via linkedin – so not sure about that, but the other two I applied for and would be really happy to get. Either way I still have the temp agency, and have said there was a job I’d be interested in which is slighly more complex admin, if these fall through. But was a definite boost after feeling like I’d wasted my time.

        1. GraduallyGettingThere*

          Thank you – good luck to you too – I feel like I was bragging above but what I really meant to say is sometimes things come together out of the blue just when you’ve had a dissapointment. I would never have foreseen this at the beginning of the week – although yeah have to get through the interviews…

  147. Junior Dev*

    I just got back from a work trip. Throughout the whole trip I kept waking up in the middle of the night and being unable to get back to sleep. My theory is that usually my cat comes to cuddle with me in the middle of the night, and not having her there was enough to disrupt my sleep.

  148. Uncertain*

    I’m a recent grad who would appreciate some advice on two issues that are impeding my job search: 1) an uncertainty about what sort of career I want to pursue and 2) driving anxiety.

    I graduated in May 2017 with a BA in History and minors in German and Museum Studies. I then worked as a cashier in my hometown until September, when I began working as an English teaching assistant at a German school via a Fulbright fellowship. I had the option of applying to renew my teaching assistantship for a second year, and while I’ve enjoyed myself overall, I ultimately decided against it because I don’t feel completely comfortable in the classroom. My fellowship goes until the end of June and I really don’t know what direction to take once I return home to the U.S. immediately afterward. In college I considered becoming a history professor after discovering I really enjoyed conducting historical research, but I was worried about the lack of tenure-track positions in academia and my ability to teach (the latter now being a greater concern due to my feelings about my teaching assistantship). I also completed some fascinating internships in museums studies, but was then dissuaded from this field by the prospect of accruing more student loan debt to earn an advanced degree in this discipline without the promise of being able to easily land a job afterward. I felt embarrassingly directionless during my senior year of college and was lucky to have the opportunity to explore my interest in German language and culture with my Fulbright fellowship (which also had the added bonus of postponing real life for a bit longer). I suppose what I do know is that I would enjoy a career that allowed me to conduct research (especially qualitative) and write analytically. And although I don’t see myself as a teacher, I love learning and care deeply about education. I feel at home in a university setting and have also become passionate about international education and exchange as a result of my Fulbright experience. It would of course be a plus to work with history (particularly medical and women’s history), although it may be difficult to find a position that integrates these themes. A career that involves working internationally is intriguing, although I’m planning to be based in the U.S. for the time being. With this information in mind, are there any fields that I should consider looking into?

    As for driving anxiety, I was able to earn my driver’s license after receiving lessons from a driving instructor, but I haven’t been behind the wheel since the day I passed my driver’s test nearly three years ago. I’ve always struggled with spatial recognition, having a quick reaction time, and following directions from one place to another, and because of that I do not feel at all qualified to be on the road. I’m from a tiny town with no public transportation, so moving to a big city with a good public transportation system is something I’m definitely considering. I lived near Washington D.C. one summer while completing an internship and I really enjoyed the area. However, I have to wonder if moving to a city would just be a way of avoiding the problem. Furthermore, my boyfriend (who’s in the U.S.) and I would like to move in together eventually. He’s currently employed in his hometown, which, while larger than my own, also doesn’t have public transportation, so we’re faced with continuing to do long-distance once I come back to the U.S. if my issue with driving is not resolved and I have to move to a city. Any advice on how to approach this problem would also be appreciated.

    If you’re still here at the end of this, thank you!

    1. Leave it to Beaver*

      I had an issue with driving anxiety (more directly related to performance anxiety). I failed my road test 3 separate times, to give you an idea about how deeply entrenched it was. I also lived in a suburb and went to college 3 hours from home, so driving was something I needed to enjoy the convenience of living where I did. So I have sympathy for your dilemma. I don’t have a ton of recommendations for you since your issue may be more physical (spatial problems and reaction times), but I would recommend driving whenever and wherever possible. Since you haven’t driven a car in three years, start slow. A trip around the block or to the store. Also don’t let other drivers phase you, you will never see them again. So if you need more time to make a left turn or merge, take your time. The more you practice, the more you’ll be able to identify what works best for you and accommodate your anxiety in a productive way.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Some people aren’t meant to drive. There’s nothing wrong with that. I have poor depth perception and anxiety issues so I’m not comfortable being behind the wheel and it hasn’t held me back. I do live in a big city though. If you genuinely want to live in a bigger city, I don’t think you’re avoiding the problem, you’re figuring out what works for you.

    3. Joanne*

      I feel you! I still don’t have my license (long story, but TL;DR is that I failed it twice and then my permit expired before I could take it a third time so I need to renew it and do the process all over again, and the only difference is that I don’t need to take driver’s ed because that doesn’t expire where I live).

      If you’re looking to move to DC, the Red line does pass by most living spaces, and you may want to check into Farragut Square (Farragut West and Farragut North) are the two nearby metro stations. If you have access to Express mail, which is usually handed out at most Metro locations, they do have listings for apartments along with rent and other costs/amenities the apartments offer.

      For your job, you may want to look into technical writing. I currently work with the U.S. Coast Guard as a contractor and your background in teaching/working with foreign languages may be useful. Technical writing is for a larger audience than the usual college students/professors and may interest you since it does deal with research (usually with acronyms).

    4. Reba*

      Any interest in working in higher ed *not* as faculty? (Staff in teaching and learning center, Language departments, international studies dept or study abroad office all would seem to have a good fit with your interests)
      Or in museums *not* in tracks that require more degrees? (development, education, volunteer management, registrar, HR, PR…)

    5. NoTurnover*

      Honestly I wonder if you should take another look at museum studies or consider librarianship (academic or medical, not public). Both would require additional degrees and both are competitive fields, but if you set yourself up well by selecting the right program, networking, and going after competitive internships, you can reduce the risk. Or maybe you could work as a paraprofessional in one of those settings? I don’t know as much about museum studies, but there are some decent library jobs that aren’t official “librarian” jobs. It wouldn’t be worth going into crippling debt to pursue one of these degrees, but if it’s a manageable amount of debt, maybe?

  149. Coqui*

    My intern isn’t speaking to my because I gave him a job to clean up a storage closet and to prepare the equipment for surplus. He told me he’s not paid to clean up, but to learn. I notified my boss but nothing has happened.

    I’m working in the twilight zone.

    1. ExcelJedi*

      Is he actually paid for his internship or are you working in a non-profit? Because if either of those are true, he’s pretty much there for whatever the company needs him for, right?

      1. Coqui*

        He’s paid for the internship, though it’s not a whole lot above minimum wage. It’s a point of contention with him and he brings it up often and typically in a mocking tone. We work in IT and he spends much of his day browsing on his phone or watching/listening to videos on youtube with an in-ear bluetooth headset and prefers to sit at the front desk to be the “door guardian” because he thinks he can goof off buzz people in and answer the occasional IT support phone call and doesn’t have to move. He is actually a few years older than me (I am early 30’s), and knew what the pay and job duties entailed before he accepted the offer. He tends to buddy-buddy with people so he can get away with things or avoid negative feedback, and I’ve fallen for that in the past.

        Since I work in local government it’s nearly impossible to get someone removed from their position, or even a formal write-up. I sent a blanket email to all 3 of the interns and CC’d one of my peers with a quick “Hey team, we all need to do better with keeping the storage area clean. Because it’s one of the first areas folks see when they enter the department it leaves a negative impression. *Intern1* and *Intern2*, since *Intern3*’s last day is next Friday I will need you two to switch off surplus duties going forward until we are caught up. I’d like to see this completed by the end of May.” The angry intern was questioning why another peer in a different sub-department that works closely with us, also his superior, was not included in the email chain since he’s a frequent contributor to the mess. I replied that I spoke with that peer in person, but I wish I would have told him in the moment that it was none of his business.

        1. ExcelJedi*

          That sounds like a nightmare situation. Don’t take a job (or internship) if you’re not ok with the parameters.

    2. k.k*

      Seriously, who does he think he is? I thought everyone knew that interns are basically there to do whatever they’re asked. You might get some meatier projects, but mostly there to do grub work (with the learning coming from observing the business, office and industry norms, etc).

      1. Kathleen_A*

        Yeah, who does he think he is? He’s being paid to learn, sure – but part of what he’s supposed to be learning is how the working world operates. News flash!, Intern Guy, but in the working world, we all have to do boring jobs sometimes.

      1. Coqui*

        The surprising thing is that he’s ex-military, but he has a strong opinion about his time in the armed forces. I think part of his healing is to push back on authority figures.

  150. Normally a Lurker*

    NYC specific question:

    I am a freelancer under contract with a company. Does anyone know if it’s legal for them to pay me without a pay stub? I’m having a hard time sorting out what work I’ve been paid for and what I have not bc they are just direct depositing, and my checks are short.

    Thank you.!

    1. mreasy*

      Do they have an online system where you can look up your pay stub? We direct deposit and don’t give out physical stubs, but they’re available online. I would just ask to get printouts of your paystubs – they definitely exist in the world if they’re using direct deposit via a payroll provider.

    2. o.b.*

      Has it gotten to the point where your only leverage/recourse is the law? Or is there someone you can ask for specific breakdowns of your payments? Can you say, “I’m having trouble figuring out what I’ve been paid for and whether any bills are outstanding. Can you provide me with documentation of what’s been paid? Unfortunately I won’t be able to do any new work until this is sorted out.”

      Also, like…. any chance someone majorly messed up entering you into their direct deposit system and they’re accidentally deducting W2 expenses?

      1. o.b.*

        PS (sorry… I’m just going to embrace my role as an egregious double-commenter…) if they are like “haha idk we are just paying you some chunks of money, who knows what invoices they’re tied to :))” extricate yourself from this (if/as soon as possible) and don’t re-contract with them

  151. Anon for this post*

    Does anyone have tips or advice as to how to adjust after making a major job change?

    The background is: All my past jobs were in the Biglaw/Big 4 accounting equivalent in my industry. But the long hours, bringing work home and constantly having to be tethered to my work phone 24/7/365 was killing my marriage.

    My husband stays home with the kids and takes the odd photography gig on the side. Things were bad for a while and he almost left. We were in counseling. I went to a lawyer because we at the point where he was going to divorce me and the lawyer said that based on my work life, never being home, constantly missing things like birthdays and not being in a position to always to school drop off would mean I likely would not have custody or even shared. When my husband moved out with the boys I did miss visits because of my work schedule.

    I love my family and I made a change. I took a job with the government (not saying where or what level of government for privacy). It has saved our marriage and things have never been better.

    But I am having a hard time with the adjustment. We have a hard 8:30 start time, a hard 4:30 end time and a hard 12:30-1:30 lunch due to the laws here. We must take lunch and not be working. It is enforced. There is no overtime or weekends allowed under any circumstances. We cannot bring work home or work from home. We can’t access email or voicemail out of the office. We don’t have work cell phones or laptops and are forbidden from using personal ones to do work. We can’t bring work outside the office. No exceptions. If we want time off it has to be a full day (8 hours) or half day before lunch or after (4 hours). There is no flexible time or coming in late an hour due to an appointment or things like that. The actually make everyone take 2 straight weeks in a row off once each calendar year. Plus we have 2 weeks of days off separate from this that we must use each year (our sick time is a separate bank). We have to bring in our own coffee, tissues etc. because the government can’t use taxpayer money for it. Since it is the government there is no travel for work allowed ever. It takes forever for a decision to get made and many hands have to be involved. We can’t negotiate things like pay, vacation or other perks because everything is uniform and the same for all. This all would stay the same if I ever get to managements with the government.

    I’m having a hard time adjusting. It is a complete 180 from the other jobs I have had. I feel so lazy and unproductive. But if I go back to the private sector it will be like before and my husband will leave. There is no middle ground in the industry. My husband is thrilled to have his wife back. I actually get to see him and our sons now and I am home for birthdays and holidays. We actually saw each other on our anniversary for the first time and we have been married for 9 years.

    So given all this, how can I adjust to such a drastic change? Any tips or advice would be appreciated.

    1. Graciosa*

      Have you thought about adding another (flexible) element to your schedule? I’m thinking about a hobby or volunteer activity. For example, if you take up tennis or bowling or tai chi or crocheting infant blankets for charity or volunteering at an animal shelter, you might feel less lazy and unproductive without creating another inflexible obligation that prevents you from spending time at home. If the activity is one you can do with other members of your family, that’s a bonus.

      I think the key here is to find something that let’s you feel a sense of accomplishment – which does not need to come from your job, by the way – without making your husband think you’re looking for a way to avoid your family. I strongly recommend you discuss this with him – both so he knows what you’re thinking (and that it is not what he may fear), and also so that you can jointly agree on how this could work without impacting your joint plan for your family.

      Good luck.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      I think the key here is focusing on what you are gaining and not what’s different because it feels more like what’s lost.

      I would do unspeakable things to small animals to get some of those things you listed above. Hard start AND stop times. No working outside of work. No emails outside of work. Two weeks off at once.

      You are getting some amazing opportunity with your kids and spouse and that should be your focus. You can go to all the soccer games and band concerts and painful kid birthday parties. I’d also imagine that your health is probably better too, right? Less stress, more time to rest and exercise properly. There is so much to gain.

      I think it wouldn’t hurt to process this with a therapist or counselor. You made a HUGE adjustment (and the right one IMHO) but that doesn’t mean it still wasn’t huge. Maybe this is also a time to examine opportunities to pick up hobbies or other interests that you never had time for before. The fullfillment you got from being at a Big4 can come from other things.

      Good luck.

      1. SoSo*

        “I think the key here is focusing on what you are gaining and not what’s different because it feels more like what’s lost.”

        Yes, this. It probably feels like you have whiplash from making such a huge change, but my advice would be to focus and funnel your attention on to the things that you like or love about this new change, and not to the blinking neon sign that screams THIS IS DIFFERENT. I read an article once titled “Being Busy is Not a Badge of Honor,” and it really stuck with me because my mom once told me that she felt like a failure if she wasn’t working on something and being productive… There are a lot of times when it’s okay to not be busy, and it’s okay to spend your free time doing absolutely nothing! Sometimes you have to embrace the downtime- we need it or else we’d all be miserable.

        Maybe if you’re feeling unproductive, you could set a personal goal? I find I feel stagnant if I’m not working towards something, so the last two years I’ve been training for various 5k and 10k races to give myself a goal and keep my sense of ambition satisfied. You could find a goal that speaks to you or pick up a new hobby to learn, and could incorporate that into your newfound time with family.

    3. CatCat*

      Give yourself time and let yourself learn to embrace the down time.

      I didn’t go from BigLaw private sector to government, I have always been in government, but I had a similar shift when I went from litigation to house counsel work. There was a lot I loved about litigation, but it was really grinding me down because of a high case load, not a lot of support from management, long hours, and a lot of travel taking me away from home. It was negatively impacting my home life and I also didn’t get paid any more than the house counsel folks who left almost every day on time and did not have to travel.

      Switching was a relief at first, but then I would get into these periods where nothing was going on. Instead of just constantly having various litigation matters to attend to, which were constant as it was a huge government body that always had new litigation coming in, and being mostly in the driver’s seat to handle my cases (except for things that expressly required client action like settlement), house counsel work was much more client driven. The flow of my work was much less in my control with house counsel work. Sometimes the internal clients would have a ton of questions and need a lot of help and sometimes they just did not. Our busy times pretty much coincided with their busy times. In the down times, I struggled with feeling like there’s something I was supposed to be doing and I was doing something wrong because I was idle. I actually talked to my boss at the time about it. She said to just enjoy the downtime because it was what it was. We could be busy again at any time so I still would need to be in the office, but I did not have to be feeling guilty about reading the news taking a long lunch (not an option for you, sorry about that!) when we’re between work.

      I’ve since switched to another job, still in a house counsel role and finding the same experience here on having busy periods and down periods. I’ve learned to fully embrace the down time! It took some time to do so. I still will have busy times, but it’s totally fine not to be busy all the time. My manager is happy with my performance, I’m on in it when there is work, my productively and work quality are high when I have assignments, and clients are happy. My overall well-being and home life are so much better now than when I was litigating. It was a challenge to adjust and not feel “lazy” because things were of such a different pace, but once I made that mental adjustment, I became soooo much happier.

      Sometimes I miss aspects of litigation, but I will never go back. I really appreciate what I do now and appreciate the house counsel job and what goes with it for what it is and not what it isn’t. Just give yourself time and work on your mental space on how you think about your job and the down times.

    4. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

      I just recently did the exact opposite – I went from gov’t to private sector. It was also a complete 180 – you mean I don’t have to clock in to the minute? I can request the purchase of not only office supplies, but *Kleenexes*??? I can take a lunch whenever the hell I want to???! We can accept gifts from contractors??!?!?

      It’s been really odd to adjust. I’m still not fully adjusted. I get twitchy when Boss comes in on a Friday at 3 and tells me it’s nice out and it’s Friday, he’s kicking everyone out of the office to go home and enjoy life. Or when the office manager asks me what type of pens/tissues/notebooks I want, oh, and is there anything else you need? Shelving? (I can ask for SHELVING???)

      It’s a whirlwind to adjust to an entirely new office culture. But think of all the benefits you get in your new job – you’re getting your time with your family back, for one. That’s pretty awesome, don’t you think?

  152. Margo the Destroyer*

    How do you deal with individuals who can’t distinguish urgent from non urgent matters. I am assigned to work with an individual who has this issue. It brings me a ton of misery if I am trying to take a day off, because I feel so bad for my back up who has to deal with her own clients as well as mine. Things can wait until I am back, but he sends every single thing to my backup as though it is an urgent matter that needs to be taken care of asap. It doesn’t seem to matter how much I explain this to him, he doesn’t seem to get it.

    1. Graciosa*

      Some people are like this – I once had someone insist something was an emergency because the answer might impact his scheduling (of a meeting some days hence).

      Is he likely coachable with more specific criteria? For example, it’s an emergency only if X (people are bleeding, the deadline on an $X matter will pass before you return and he has failed in his attempt to an extension, etc.).

      Not sure it will work – as I said, some people are like that – but it might be worth a shot to get really granular with him if you haven’t already.

      With sympathy –

    2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      Since you say he sends everything, I’m assuming he emails? I’d probably let the backup know that they can reply to him and tell him that it has to wait until you return.

  153. Ray Gillette*

    This week, my desk chair and all of my pens have disappeared from my desk.

    So that’s new.

    1. Emily S.*

      It’s good that that stuff has come out into the open now. I hope you’ve found a better work environment in your current position.

      1. Kat*

        So much better! I mean, every workplace has its dysfunctions, I’ve found a place that generally motivates employees by being supportive rather than intimidating. Took me a while to learn to trust their intentions, but now it is so pleasant!

  155. Effie, who is wondering*

    Slight vent here.

    I support the intern program for my company. I do not support the interns, and generally I believe they know that.

    There’s one intern in particular who pushes back A LOT when he asks me for info and I give him info. I don’t know if he does it just with me or also with the program managers.

    The other day I gave him info that again, he’d asked for, and at the end of the Slack chat I said (mostly as a courtesy), let me know if you have any questions. He wrote back immediately, are you sure we should do this, why don’t we do this instead. I took a deep breath, and explained I’d already talked to the intern program’s national coordinator, and we’d decided together that this was what we were going to do. He then thanked me for coordinating.

    I’m not a manager, but the program managers and the national coordinator do not treat me as “just support,” so it throws me off when interns do. I know they’re still learning, and I’m doing my best to stay gracious and professional. I guess I just feel like I didn’t need to explain myself in this situation and it galls me a bit that I did, but it was the quickest way to end the conversation and get back to my work.

    Not really looking for advice, commiseration appreciated.

    1. Junior Dev*

      Can you go into more detail on how he pushes back and why it’s a problem?

      I can relate a lot to this intern and I’m going to try and explain my experience with this without blaming you or putting you in the wrong, I’m genuinely curious to hear your perspective.

      I’m in my late 20s so all my jobs have had me in fairly junior roles. Here are some things that stress me out a lot at work:

      * When I get vague instructions on what I should be doing, which means I often try to find out the intent behind the project so I can know what to prioritize
      * When I’m stuck with some process or tool that seems inadequate or causes a lot of problems, and it seems to me it would be a better use of my time to work on improving the process rather than trying to work around its limitations, but I don’t have buy-in from management to do that
      * When I hear one message about what our general or long-term goals should be, but then get instructions on what I should be working on day-to-day that don’t seem to contribute to those goals, it makes me worry I will be blamed for a lack of progress towards those goals

      Those are all situations I’ve encountered multiple times at work and I’m working on learning the skill of asking about the reasons behind things in a tactful way without coming off as disruptive or condescending. It’s hard to do, not least because in school I was encouraged to ask lots of questions to the point it comes off as contrarian in a work environment.

      IMO if you want to resolve the situation well you could try talking to the intern’s boss or mentor and tell them how these comments come off to you, and suggest that the intern needs to learn how to get the information he needs in a way that doesn’t come off as disrespecting others’ hard work. I get why this is frustrating to you but I would hope the intern could learn some useful work skills out of this rather than just being shut down.

      1. Junior Dev*

        Oh crap, I totally missed your comment about not looking for advice. I’m sorry. Alison, can you remove the above comment?

      2. Effie, who is wondering*

        Hi Junior Dev, no worries. I can tell that you care and I appreciate you taking the time to type out your comment.

        His pushing back bothers me because it seems like he doesn’t think I know know what I’m doing. He’s also previously pushed back in ways that gives me the impression that I don’t know how to do my job. The example I referenced, he asked me for help on one of his projects, I agreed as a courtesy (I should have made it clear that this is a courtesy – that’s a mistake I hope I won’t make again), and then he pushes back on how I’m planning to help.

        Interns don’t get to assign things to me, ever. They can ask me for help, and it is up to me to choose to help them or not. When I can, I like to, and I also have no problem telling them I don’t have the capacity and directing them to someone else who could help them or looping in their manager.

        2. Junior Dev*

          Ah ok, it makes sense that would be irritating. I think it’s worth bringing your concerns to his manager, not in an “I’m mad and I want him punished” way, but in a “this is causing these problems, can you coach him on how to do better?” way.

  156. Kathlynn*

    Can I just say how much it angers me when a horrible employee is given more responsibility (and promotions). And thus is happening at work. And I can’t be completely surprised, because my manager has a history of liking horrible workers. My coworker has retaliated against me, refused to help me do my job, when I need him to cover till. He won’t speak to or acknowledge multiple coworkers. Has had his bullshit excuses accepted, with no problem. He is always late, in a job where time matters. (and which puts my life at risk). He has even refused to run till so I can use the washroom. And he might become assistant manager. (also, he was accused of sexual harassment, while the manager was on mat leave, which was not properly investigated, and might not be in his record. My manager might not know this though)

    1. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

      That is one reason why I left my last job. Two of us in the same level, same title. He’d just go home/to the gym for part of the day. Like, for 4+ hours. Count it as work. Refuse to turn in paperwork for any of the inspections he did. Pass random work onto me that he was specifically told not to. Refuse to help others. But when we start taking on more and more and more projects….nope, can’t give any to him, all went to me. I was doing 80% of the workload between the two of us. BossLady freely said he was a pain and didn’t do any work, but never really did anything about the issues. He’ll probably stay doing that until he dies, because he has flat out said he won’t retire from such a good gig.

  157. Feeling Stuck*

    Two questions that I would love insight on!
    Situation: For various reasons, I’m struggling at my current job, and my performance is low in some areas. I am keeping an eye out for other opportunities.
    Q1 – Time – to even perform halfway decent takes more than 40 hours at this job. Improving – such as taking classes, which I’ve done on and off – takes even more time. How am I supposed to fit in a strategic job hunt when I’m working so much? I had friends advise to just let my performance slip even more and focus on the job hunt but I’m afraid I’d get fired. But if I only focus on improving and it doesn’t work, then I won’t have any job leads. How do I balance this???
    Q2 – References. If I do find another job they won’t check for references with my current employer, but some time in the future I will need more than one professional reference and I wouldn’t get a good one here. How do I address a “reference gap”?
    Thanks for any help!

  158. Susan*

    Not a question as much as a semi-rant. I am a senior project manager at a software company, and how we work ticks every list item in this article – https://hackernoon.com/12-signs-youre-working-in-a-feature-factory-44a5b938d6a2.

    I’m struggling right now because morale here is awful. We had an all hands to talk about next quarter goals for the product I am on, and in the Q+A part of the session we had two different managers being explicit about how they are not feeling they can make a difference in the success of the product. Everyone sees things are wrong – we have us vs. them across orgs, within orgs, within teams! Too many things asked for from a shrinking team. Upper level management is not on the same page as to what is priority. There’s so many directions we could go in and they are all treated as the same priority that everything feels scattered.

    I am actively searching and am trying to keep my spirits up, but it’s hard. I am a very empathetic person so when other people are unhappy I feel it too. I also know that I’m overtasked and as a person who wants to help everyone, it hurts that I can’t. For now while I am searching I think I will do some more reading and thinking about the article above + the related articles about how to get beyond it.

    My boss is the one who can direct changes to how we work. He was the one who posted the article and knows that’s how we are. I can’t see myself staying here, but at least for now I can try to work on making things better.

  159. Pup Seal*

    Would you stay at a job knowing your boss’s spouse was a child molester?

    I work at a small business where we work out of the owner’s home. I’ve recently learned through coworkers that the owner’s spouse molested their kids when the children were young. The owner and her spouse are in their sixties and seventies, so their children are now in their forties. He has never been arrested or charged (I Googled his name and couldn’t find him on any sex offender list). The owner’s spouse is retired, so he’s at the home while we work. Knowing all this now, I don’t feel comfortable working here, especially since we have clients who are in high school coming in.

    I’ve always felt something was off with him. Just the other day as I was coming back from lunch he gave me the creepiest smile (I’m often mistaken as a teenager despite being in my mid-twenties). I’m disgusted at what he did, especially to his own children. I also don’t feel comfortable being around my boss. She is still married to him, and I can’t wrap my mind of a parent allowing their spouse to do that to their own children. Maybe that’s an unfair judgement to put on her? I’m considering looking for a new job anyway, what would you guys do in this situation?

      1. Murphy*

        To use more words…Really, the fact that they’re still together would be the part that would do it for me. These things happen and other adults, even the spouse, really doesn’t know. So I don’t think it’s fair to think that she “allowed” it to happen or anything like that.

    2. Temperance*

      Honestly absolutely not. That’s absolutely disgusting, and I wouldn’t feel comfortable working in the same space as him. I would not respect his wife, either, for enabling and covering up abuse.

      It’s not an unfair judgment to judge someone for enabling crimes of any sort, much less something as gross as sex abuse.

    3. Nacho*

      I get that child molesters are pretty high up there on the “bad people” list, but if it happened 30 years ago, and he’s just a frail old man now, it seems kind of weird to keep fixating on it.

      1. Temperance*

        Not really. It’s not like he ever faced any repercussions from his choice to rape his children, like the appropriate jail time and ostracizing from society.

      2. Camellia*

        “Frail old men” are still molesters and may still do it again. My father-in-law served two years in prison for molesting his step-daughter, because she finally told a teacher, but no time for the other five (or more; he has nine daughters total, and two sons). That was 30+ years ago and he is now a “frail old man”. Who not long ago looked at two of his granddaughters, ages 2 and 5, and commented how they looked like ‘women’ he liked to f***’.

        There are two parts that get me: When I met my husband’s mother for the first time, she asked me if he had told me that her husband had cheated on her – WITH THEIR DAUGHTERS. Yep, it was all about her, not what he had done to them. Then his step-mother, who had the other five daughters in addition to the daughter she had when FIL met her, TOOK HIM BACK AFTER PRISON AND HAD TWO MORE CHILDREN BY HIM.

        My husband is the only sane one of the bunch, probably because he got out of there when he was sixteen and has been on his own ever since.

        I would be out of there in a hot minute.

    4. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      If I were you, I would definitely start looking for something else. This whole situation is setting off alarms in my brain. Its unsettling and has the potential to become unsafe. On a side note, its also wildly inappropriate that the owner of this business seems to have no qualms about having minors as clients, while her spouse is present. Do their parents know?

      1. Pup Seal*

        The parents of the clients? No, they aren’t told anything. When we have very young clients (under the age of 10), my boss will stress not to let them go upstairs where he is. I’ve been working here for 8 months and just found out on Monday. I was also only given very minimal information, so I don’t know if he abused anybody outside his family or how long it happened or when it stopped. The only other thing I know is two out of the three children have cut him and the owner out of their lives.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          The boss stresses not to let young children upstairs and near him? Yeah. This is not a good situation. I would leave asap. I also understand that he might not be on a sex offender registry, but… he should be, sounds like, and he should not even be near high schoolers if this is all true.

        2. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

          Yeah, this is all oddly reminiscent of my family situation that I mentioned below. My sister and I were often warned to not go upstairs where “X” was. This sounds very unsafe for all who are involved.

        3. Murphy*

          Uhh…wow. I wonder what, if anything, you can do for these children that have to potentially be exposed to this guy. But I’m not sure that there is anything given that he’s not on a registry.

      2. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

        As far as unfair judgment….that can be a tricky situation. On a personal note, my grandmother stayed married to a man who sexually abused his daughters (deep down she knew it was true, but supported his innocence during his trial–I honestly think its because my grandmother was a housewife, and had he gone to prison, she would have found herself without any financial support), and as a result, I have always had a very impersonal relationship with my grandmother. My parents (logically) wouldn’t allow me or my sister to spend time at their house alone. On one hand, it horrifies and disgusts me that my grandmother impeded justice for her step daughters. On the other hand, I love my grandmother and I honestly do think that she made her decision mostly out of fear. Your boss very well could have been in a similar situation–not that that justifies it–but people make bad decisions in an effort to save the status quo all the time.

        1. Temperance*

          I honestly think that it sucks that you had any relationship with either of your grandparents, and that no one was there for your aunts. Those poor, abused children, to be brave enough to come out and ask for help, and to be harmed.

          I hope that those girls, now women, have good lives.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          And I just saw your comment above about your boss stressing not to let young children near him. That pushes it into super squicky territory for me. I’d definitely be looking.

    7. Effie, who is wondering*

      I read the first sentence of your post and immediately thought “No.”

      No other details needed. Get out ASAP.

    8. k.k*

      I would get a new job ASAP. And I don’t know how feasible it would be, but if there is anyway you can alert the parents of the minor clients I would do so. I’m not typically one to advocate for gossip or anonymous notes, but in this situation it would be better than nothing if there was no way to tell them more officially.

    9. Thlayli*

      You should report this to child protective services. If you work with children you may be a mandatory reporter and be legally obliged to report any risks to children. In some states everyone is a mandatory reporter.

      You have children as young as 10 coming into this building with a child abuser. Apparently everyone who works there knows this situation. Saying “don’t let them go upstairs” is not sufficient protection. You need to report the situation. Otherwise you are colluding I’m putting kids at risk. Even if you leave, by not reporting, you are still colluding In putting those kids at risk.

      By all means look for another job, but the most important thing is that you report this situation. Protecting the kids should be your main concern, not your own comfort level.

      1. FD*

        Yeah, this is a MAJOR case of missing stair.

        This is a case where children are being brought into a situation where they are in danger from a child molester.

        THIS IS A CASE WHERE CHILDREN COMING TO YOUR ORGANIZATION **ARE** AT RISK FROM A CHILD MOLESTER.

        The building is on fire here. Yes, leave, but call the fire department too.

  160. barber's wife*

    Mostly just venting but I’m definitely open to any advice/scripts.
    My husband is a relatively new barber (<3 years). He was working in a shop where he didn't like the owner or some of his co-workers but he had a steady clientele and made decent money. Another shop owner pursued him (offered more money, etc.) and convinced him to move to his shop about a month ago. Now he's making noises like he's going to fire my husband. He says he needs someone who is "all in" and "doesn't just come to work every day".
    My husband thinks he's disappointed that more clients didn't follow him from the old shop (which was never likely since they are in totally different parts of town) or that he doesn't do more sales-y type stuff like pressuring his clients to write yelp reviews.
    I've never liked this guy (we knew him socially before) and I was against my husband working for him. I tried to tell my husband to pin him down on what exactly he wants and not just let him force you out that easily but he's (understandably) reluctant to continue on there. My husband has a tendency to get reeeeallly anxious when out of a job (scary panic attacks, etc.) so I'm pretty apprehensive about the future right now.

  161. Emily*

    I’ve worked as a preschool teacher for the last eight years, and I’m finishing a certification to become a center director! I have the required degree, however my concern is how to get hired at the director level when I’ve never had a desk job. I am looking at assistant director jobs to make the transition easier, but does anyone who has made this kind of transition have any helpful tips? I’ve been in the field for a long time and am very familiar with the regulations and the day-to-day, but is that enough to get past the fact I haven’t ever worked behind a desk?

    1. Justin*

      Not quite the same, but I went from being a classroom ESL teacher (of adults, but still) to a department manager/director (the title isn’t important, you get the idea).

      I wrote a strong cover letter focusing on my organizational skills and so forth, and they brought me in for an interview, and then it was like anything else.

  162. New Manager*

    I’m new to management, and there are a couple of situations that I’m not really sure how to handle.

    1) I allowed one employee to have a flexible schedule because her child was going through some difficult medical issues that would require long-term attention. She is allowed to telework and flex her schedule to take her kid to doctor’s appointments. She is a very private person so she’s never discussed this openly with anyone in the office, and a couple of people have been resentful of her schedule. They’ve gone so far as to flex their own schedule without approval, and when I talk to them about it, they bring up this employee’s schedule as justification. I explained that this employee got approval for her schedule and vaguely stated that she had an accommodation. They are still resentful and constantly try to match their schedule to hers. How do I balance her privacy with dispelling this notion that I am playing favorites?

    2) I have an employee who sulks after being given negative feedback. She simply refuses to accept the feedback and throws the kitchen sink of excuses at me: I’m racist, I’m playing favorites, I have a personal vendetta against her, etc. etc. I have been saying good morning and trying to be pleasant to her, but she freezes me out and refuses to attend any meetings or office function where I will be present. It’s actually kind of a relief for me. But I don’t want there to be any appearance that I’m impartial towards her, so how much of an effort should I make? aside from the scheduled check-in meetings, I regularly stop by my staff’s office just to chat and check in on them. It’s awkward to do so with someone who obvious hates me and doesn’t want to talk to me. Can I just stop trying with her?

    1. fposte*

      On 1, what you need is a policy. Are there reasons the other people can’t have flexibility? Then lay those reasons out for them. Are there things they could do to achieve flexibility? Then lay those out for them.

      On 2, Alison has some good columns about employees who are defensive with feedback, but this sounds like it’s gone beyond that. It’s not acceptable for her to refuse to attend a meeting with her boss, and you can’t really manage somebody who won’t; is there a reason she hasn’t been terminated for this?

      2. New Manager*

        1) That’s good to hear because I am working on a policy. We have an informal policy where people are already able to telework a few days a month, but I am giving this particular employee more flexibility because of her situation. I feel like it’s okay to give someone who’s going through a difficult time and managing a family medical issue a bit of extra leeway than I would everyone else–at least on a temporary basis, until the situation has passed. Maybe I shouldn’t? Maybe it should just be the same across the board?

        2) I should have been more clear. The meetings I am referring to a non-mandatory ones. Her absence is conspicuous, but doesn’t rise to the level of insubordination. She does everything in her power to avoid me without it being outright insubordination.

        1. Kathleen_A*

          There’s actually nothing wrong with having a policy that states, “All employees who qualify can telework X days/month,” but you then do need to establish the qualifications, e.g., all employees “who have worked here for X months” or “who get the permission of their manager X days in advance” or whatever. But you can also have a very general policy that says something like, “Employees with special needs could be permitted to telework more frequently with the explicit permission of their manager during a limited period of time,” or something like that.

          So no, fairness doesn’t require you to treat very different people with very different jobs and situations exactly the same. Fairness isn’t the same as homogeneity. You can explain that you are accommodating this one particular employee, but that this accommodation is only for the short term and only for a specific reason. If they can’t understand that, well, too bad. They ought to be able to understand that there are times when everybody needs a little extra help. I’m going to go so far as to say that they already do understand that, but they’ve just got a case of “If she can do it, how come I can’t?” ::whine whine whine::

        2. Temperance*

          1. For what it’s worth, though, policies like the one you are drafting tend to overly favor parents and punish non-parents. What your employees are seeing now is that Jane gets to come in late/leave early/WFH often. While they don’t know the reason, is there a compelling reason that only she can get these benefits? Is there a reason why Jane gets to work in the office from, say, 8:00 a.m. – 4:00 p.m., while everyone else needs to do 9:00 a.m. – 6:00 p.m.?

          1. Kathleen_A*

            I disagree that it favors parents. What it does favor is people who have a socially recognized responsibility for another person or people – which is often children, but it could also be an ailing spouse/partner or parent.

            1. Kathleen_A*

              For the record, I don’t have any children. So I am definitely not looking at this through a parental lens. :-)

            2. RL*

              Which still means it disproportionately penalizes people based on their social circumstances. I have no children, both of my parents are dead, and I am not currently married or partnered. A truly fair policy would allow me the same general scheduling flexibility as my colleagues (with the understanding some individuals may also be eligible for sick leave, FMLA, or other time off that may be restricted by law or policy).

              Employees may have many reasons for wanting to work different schedules. If the employer can accommodate a request from one person based on his or her personal circumstances, they should consider how they could make the same or comparable arrangements available to everyone else, too.

              1. FD*

                I’m not sure I agree with this. This is an accommodation offered to help people who are going through a hardship, whether that’s taking care of sick parents, children, a sibling, etc. To me, saying it has to be offered to everyone is like saying it’s unfair that there are special parking spaces for folks with physical disabilities. It’s an adjustment being made to help out someone who might otherwise be unable to do something.

                1. Kathleen_A*

                  You put this much better than I would have, FD. An accommodation isn’t the same thing as a perk or a benefit. Benefits need to be available to all employees, within reason. But if you don’t need extra time off to take care of a sick relative, well, why should you qualify for an accommodation that allows you time off to take care of a sick relative? I mean, I have a husband and siblings and an aging parent, but none of them need my care at the moment, so right now I don’t qualify either. And I shouldn’t – not until I need it.

        3. Hellanon*

          It doesn’t matter that they are “non-mandatory” meetings – you’re the manager, you see the need for this meeting, therefore she needs to participate in it. You need to push back against this behavior as it is never going to end, and you will find yourself with an employee who never does any work and whom people are afraid to challenge. Which is a major morale sink for the entire office.

    2. NacSacJack*

      #1) Tell others when they reply, it is an FMLA situation, no further questions allowed, and no asking the employee. We have flex days here and some people have other arrangements that are not the norm, more permanent than, hey let us know when you’re WFH.

      #2) As the manager, my understanding from all the years reading AskAManager is: you get to pick your staff. If she’s not behaving properly according to norms, then you get to decide if she stays or goes. This is passive-aggressive behavior and the moment you confront it head on, it either explodes into a fireball and you deal with that result, or they change their behavior. Next time she accuses you of such behaviors, ask her why she hasn’t taken her complaints to HR…and then wait for her response.

  163. Tangled Web Weaver*

    I was fired from a permanent position at ToxicWorkplaces’R’Us six months ago. I had been there for 5 years and was very burned out from dealing with an excessive work load. I also have to admit that I had developed a bit of an attitude problem after being promised, then denied a significant raise and I was tired of having to constantly push back against asked to do more and more work. I filed a claim for unemployment insurance, which ToxicWorkplace did not contest, and have been receiving it. I’ve been spinning my departure as being “Laid-off” in interviews.

    Four months ago, I accepted a clerical job at a company I’ll call “Iceberg City” (because the air-conditioning ran nonstop and the office was always freezing). After only 3 weeks I was let go because, I was told, my Excel skills were not up to the job. (I disagree with that assessment, but that’s another story.) Since I was only at Iceberg City for 3 weeks I have been leaving this position off of my resume and off of job applications, which seems to be standard practice and standard advice for job-seekers. No big deal, right?

    I now have a contingent job offer for a low-level long-term temp clerical position (that does not involve any Excel) with a U.S. government agency. (There is a possibility that it could lead to permanent employment, but then, they always say that, don’t they?)

    They are asking for a complete job history and if I had ever been fired from any job. If I am found to have misrepresented myself the contingent job offer will be retracted and I will be excluded from consideration for any future openings at this agency. The onboarding process seems to be fairly rigorous and includes drug tests and fingerprinting.

    I’m wondering if the standard job-seeking advice continues to apply since this job is for a government agency (although it is not for a position that determines life or death kinds of decisions). I’m in a bit of a quandary about the situation and I feel like I have the sword of Damocles hanging over me.

    I figure that I have two problems:

    1. Do I now include my 3-week stint at Iceberg City? If I do include it, again, how do I walk back leaving it off of the application materials earlier and being fired from there after only 3 weeks?

    2. Do I now say that I was fired from ToxicWorkplace? And, how do I walk back my earlier claim of being laid-off?
    Am I over-thinking this? Do I just continue to say I was laid-off from ToxicWorkplace and continue to leave my stint at Iceberg City off of my resume and application? Let the sword fall where it may?

    Any thoughts?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      For a government agency asking specifically for a complete history, do not leave anything off or lie.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      If they are asking for a complete work history, give them a complete work history.

      No one should be raising their eyebrows at complete work history being different from your resume. They know that it won’t be the same; that’s why they specify complete when they need it. I had to do the same thing at my job (not government but FINRA-overseen) and disclose not only my comprehensive job/non-working/schooling history for the past 10 years, my address history for the past 10 years including the six non-contiguous weeks I spent living in a friend’s basement, and provide a complete accounting for derogatory items on my credit report.

      1. Brownie*

        The comprehensive address history was a PITA. They phrased it in such a way that if I’d stayed a continuous week in any location in the last 10 years I had to provide dates, location, and reason for being there, plus a contact person who could vouch for my physical presence. Which doesn’t work all that well for week+ long vacations at hotels.

        1. Windchime*

          My son had to complete one of those in the last year. The college years were particularly tough; there were apartments, sub-leases, weeks where he lived at home with me…..really hard to put together an accurate list.

    3. BRR*

      1) You can leave it off your resume but if places are asking for a complete history on an application you have to include it. You’re allowed to leave it off your resume because there’s no rule that your resume has to include everything.
      2) Yes. You weren’t laid and if you continue to say this it can come back to hurt you. I’m not sure how you can walk it back. Unfortunately you might need to withdraw your candidacy because I don’t know how you could explain things and keep the offer.

    4. SpaceNovice*

      Government = no lies. Ever. This is a background check and they have a way of checking it anyway. Also, you could end up in jail, depending on what form it is. (They rarely do this, but.)

      :( Good luck, though.

    5. Lindsay J*

      Include everything.

      If this is for a background check, they won’t care that you were fired for poor excel skills or whatever. They just want to ensure they have a continuous idea of where you have been for the past decade to ensure you haven’t been in terrorist training camps or recruited by the communist party or something like that. They’ve already decided they like you and want you in the job, this is just making sure that you’re not a potential threat in some way so normal stuff that might put you out of the running early on won’t put you out of the running now.

      The lying will hurt you (not the leaving off the 3 week job, but the saying you were laid off when you were actually fired). But, honestly, it’s not particularly likely that the person who you interviewed with will actually be the same person looking at the background check paperwork.

      And, if they do, there’s not really much you can do about it at this point, anyway.

    6. Brownie*

      Do NOT lie to them. I can’t emphasize that enough. How it was explained to me was that what they’re looking for isn’t necessarily your entire work history, what they’re looking for is do you lie, even by omission. Lying is what will lose you the interview/job/clearance. Leaving anything off your work history that they could find out about via W-2 forms or other government financial records will more than likely end your consideration.

      It may be possible to spin the first firing as “they paid me unemployment so I thought I’d been laid off, I’ve since found out they were being generous and I really was fired” for your ToxicJob since getting unemployment after being fired is an unusual circumstance. If you can state that the Iceberg City position ended because they decided your Excel skills weren’t up to what they needed and you were fired during a probationary period then that’s probably fine. Again, it’s not necessarily the firings they’re looking for, but do you lie by omission. Be honest and you’ve got a good shot at the job.

    7. Joanne*

      1. I was in similar situation. I had been hired by a government contractor in August 2017, and November/December 2017 was told that the client appreciated my work. The only issue was that we were basically setting up meetings for the office and its sectors, and all the summary writing for them. The branch I was in really didn’t know what they wanted-they would tell us to do one thing one day, another thing the next, and I was given no training or a manual to read through. In January 2018, I was told that I was being “let go” and b/c it was my first job I had to put it on my resume. In interviews, I’ve been saying that the contract ended (the company was the subcontractor) and looking for new positions. As far as I know, I think just about everyone who was on the team from my company has left that office. I would include the 3 week stint at Iceberg City because the government will check back for about 7 years for new grads, and 10-15 years for those who have longer work histories. Maybe you could spin Iceberg City as “My skills there were not up to company standards; however I have been working on them and feel more confident in them now.”
      2. Similar to Iceberg City, I might sping Toxic workplace as “My goals and Toxic workplace’s goals did not align and unfortunately had to part ways with them. However, I’ve been doing x,y,z to keep my skills up to date in this industry and am confident in them and appreciate the opportunity to challenge myself with skills I already have.”
      I’m going to agree with everyone else here and say that you shouldn’t lie on your application to the government. Even if it is temp, they may still need to put you through a background check for security purposes. Also, if you were fired I believe companies can only verify dates of employment and nothing else (I’m not a lawyer, but you do find some interesting things on reddit about the workforce. I would double check with your state’s/country’s laws about firings/layoffs/hirings/employment verifications.

    8. Adele*

      Do not lie. They check the most inconsequential items. I used to supervise student employees, both undergrad and graduate, often for very short periods, and once rented a room to a graduate student. YEARS later I would receive phone calls from government agencies verifying what they had written regarding their employment, e.g. dates, job title, reason for leaving. Sometimes I could barely even remember the person. Fortunately with the students I could refer them to HR. For the renter, it was so many years earlier that I had to check my tax returns to find the dates! Thank goodness I didn’t lie on them!

  164. Shrunken Hippo*

    I have an interview for a part time job coming up. It’s for a local business who has had a hard time finding employees, but I know the manager so I am confident that the problem lies more in the fact that she needs coverage for specific times and not just that she’s being too picky. The thing is, I have been suffering from severe chronic pain for the last two years and I have not been working for the last 16 months. I did mention this in my cover letter (“After taking the last year to deal with health issues I am now ready to get back into the workplace”) but I know that it will come up in the interview. The thing is I still don’t have a diagnosis and I probably won’t for the next year or so. For the most part it is under control, but there are a few things I can not do such as work more than 20 hours a week or work late at night. My question is how can I talk with the manager about my health while not scaring her away?

    As a note, if my health had not caused me to be out of work so long I would not mention it in an interview at all, however with such a work gap I don’t really have a choice.

    1. bb-great*

      You can ask about when and how long you’ll be expected to work without bringing your health into it, that’s something most people would want to know anyway. But since you did put that in your cover letter she may bring it up herself. I think the best course of action is just to be honest about your limitations: “I’m ready to come back to work but I can’t work late night shifts/more than 20 hours in a week/lift heavy things/etc.” If it would prevent her from hiring you, it would probably also prevent you from being successful in the position.

  165. DorothyP*

    So I had two jobs in the last two years that were terrible. The first, I had a crazy boss and I was also not great at the work (email marketing–I made a lot of errors and was terrible and noticing them). Then a job that I was great at but it was with a heavily toxic start up that was hugely mismanaged, I was working 60 hour weeks and constantly on call from demanding clients with no support. Then, I left that job and got my current job. When I came in, I had so much bad job experience that I had totally lost confidence in my abilities and had been questioning whether or not I was suited for the work world (I’m still very early career). I tried to put my anxiety aside (with help from a therapist) and have been working my butt off. This week, I was promoted! After 9 months! My boss and grandboss are so supportive and encouraging and that’s it. If there’s anyone out there who’s feeling the way that I used to feel, it can turn around!

  166. Kinsley*

    So I hope this isn’t too buried, but I have a dilemma. I’ve written before about how our department went from 5 to 2. We are currently recruiting for a new director so it’ll at least be three relatively shortly. Well last week, my remaining coworker resigned. She hasn’t been here that long, only 4 months. Our executives way overreacted and offered her a ridiculous counter that she accepted (a $15k raise and 4 additional weeks of vacation).

    I’m glad she’s staying, but the discrepancy between us is now insane. Before, we made the same and had the same vacation. Even though I have more experience, have a Masters degree, and have the industry specific certification that is highly respected. Before we lost everyone else, I was the only one besides my director to have the certification. Now it’s just me. Not to mention, while our jobs are similar, I actually do more and am slightly higher in hierarchy. In other terms, if she left, I already do all of her job (the volume would obviously just increase), but if I left, she literally can’t/doesn’t know how/doesn’t even have the clearance to do the other parts of my job. I’m not begrudging my coworker at all. I’d have accepted it too.

    After I took a few days to process, I scheduled a meeting with our executive to discuss. I asked what I could do to get on the same level. I laid out everything I bring to my position, my qualifications, and the increase in work I’ve taken on. I kept my coworker out of it and just tried to prove my worth. He was more angry that I asked than anything. He stated he’d need to discuss with the other executive and get back to me, but he still hasn’t yet. Normally, I’d be job searching but I’m 6 months pregnant.

    Should I check in and see if the decision has been made yet? Or just assume the silence means no? Obviously, if it is a no, I will be job searching after my son arrives. I just feel like everyone panicked and didn’t think through the consequences of what they were doing before they did it. And it’s making me feel really undervalued. Thought? Suggestions?

    2. BRR*

      I’d give it a little time and then ask if he has any updates. If you have regular check ins that would be a good time.

    3. bb-great*

      ” I just feel like everyone panicked and didn’t think through the consequences of what they were doing before they did it.” I suspect you hit the nail on the head. They offered her the moon to keep from losing one more person and didn’t anticipate you would come looking for the same (which they absolutely should have considered before they made her this offer).

      I am guessing this director will be your direct manager? It might make sense to wait until they hire someone, then present the situation to that person. Maybe they will be willing/able to advocate for you.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I think you should start job searching now, just to know what your options are. It can take a long time (depending on field etc), so getting a head start now might help 6-9 months from now or whenever you’re ready to work after the baby arrives. It’s also possible that you won’t have a new director before you go on maternity leave (hiring takes longer than expected, baby comes sooner than expected), so I wouldn’t necessarily bank on that.

      Also, that’s ridiculous that they have to “think” about whether to bump you up, or to be angry that you realized how undervalued you are now compared to your less experienced, less credentialed coworker. If you gave notice, they would be even more out of luck than when your coworker did.

  167. Nita*

    Question for those who have physically active jobs, and/or work with strangers a lot… my job sometimes involves a lot of walking, climbing, etc. at different sites. Recently I’ve developed some health problems that make it difficult. I have not talked to my boss about doing less physical work, because that’s not an option. We’re very understaffed at the moment.

    Basically, my question is – if a total stranger is showing me around a work site and I know it will take several hours, is it weird to ask them to let me grab a 15-minute break to sit down and eat a small snack? They’re taking time out of their day to walk around with me, and I feel awful wasting more of their time, and just plain embarrassed to tell someone I don’t really know that I’m not feeling well. And I feel incredibly weird snacking in front of someone who may be pushing back their lunchtime to get through the site walk. I’d rather just tough it out, and have been able to do that so far, but I’m a mess when I get back to the office…

    1. Lil Fidget*

      If I were you, I’d just make it clear when I arrived. Say it in a calm manner, ideally without apologizing. “I’ve been dealing with some health problems lately, is it alright if we take it a little slow today? I might need to sit down and rest after an hour or two, and I brought some snacks.” Personally reasonable. If someone asked me for that, I’d be glad to provide it. I had a severe but short duration health problem a few years back and honestly, everything got a lot better for me once I confronted it head-on and asked for some simple accommodations, not only from my boss but from whoever could help me get through the problem in the moment. Nobody was ever weird about it.

      1. Nita*

        Thanks! I like that idea, it will probably sound less odd if I bring it up right away. I’m sorry you also had to deal with a health crisis, hope you’re much better now!

  168. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    Probably late to the party today, but I’d like someone else’s opinion.

    I’ve been at current job 4 months. Work is fine, culture is not. I did not know this before I started, but the dept had a period of extreme toxicity, and is now trying to recover. 60-70% turnover, they fired 1/3 of the mgmt team all in one day (justified, but you see the scope of the problem). It’s an internal audit department, so the business thinking you know what you’re doing is critical. Right now, they don’t. It could take years to fully rebuild the reputation of the department.

    The staff have PTSD. They talk to their chosen friends, are friendly and helpful when directly approached about work related stuff, but do not engage/welcome new people. Dept doesn’t have a culture of training, so you end up with a lot of inexperience people who aren’t being properly trained, and someone who is experienced but new to the org is kinda expected to just know everything with little tolerance for the ramp up. Except they don’t think they do that (they totally do). Since there is a learning curve, you’re looked down on for struggling (since they’re not training!).

    Pay, benefits, time off all very good. Very little variation in start/end times, WFH is technically allowed but unofficially looked down on. Overall, this is a department that is still reeling from massive changes and problems.

    I’m not happy, but could stick it out for a year or so. If I did, the bonus would likely be 8-10k. Should I start job searching again? Thoughts?

    1. ExcelJedi*

      It sounds like you’re not a manager here, just staff, so my answer it based off that.

      I’d stay, but I’d be clear with myself that this is just a job, and that toxicity won’t follow me home. I’m also the type of person who would (try to) insert some sanity into my situation. For me, that means pointing out to people that things are changing, pointing out when good changes happen, and overall trying to be an ally to new managers who are hopefully trying to fix things.

      But I’d also be updating my resume all the time, keeping my options open if recruiters called, and definitely start looking next spring if things don’t get better.

      1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        not manager, and not interested in manager. It’s a very different job, and one that I’d be terrible at.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      How long has it been since the upheaval happened? If it was literally right before you started, I can see why people are still on edge. If it was two years ago, then that would be far more troubling.

      As for deciding whether to start looking, what’s your job history look like? If you have multiple short term positions, I’d say try to stick this out for a least a year. Especially if you can get a hefty bonus. It’s also possible that things will improve over time.

      1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        New dept head in early-mid 2017. Mgmt was first a month or so after that. At least 2-3 years of horrible dysfunction prior to that. Turnover was all along, and is continuing now, though slowing down. There’s still a LOT of turmoil, but it’s mostly confined to the management team now. So far, it’s not directly impacting me though I am hearing about some of it.

        My job history is 6 years, 6 months, 4 years, and now 4 months. So I could go either way and just laugh it off as every other job I forget how to judge culture?

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      How long would it take you to find something else? In my field, you can hunt for over a year before you find anything, so if you know it’ll take that long, what would you lose?

      On the other hand, if you know it won’t take that long, I would ask yourself: If nothing changes, how long can you stand it? Can you give it year? Six months? What does the rest of your job history look like? Have you left a lot of jobs early?

      1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        If I stay in the same line of work, 1-2 months. However, I’ve got an itch to move to a different area, which would be an apparent step back my career, and would be harder to get into I think. Just because it would look odd.

    4. Just Peachy*

      I don’t have any advice, just sympathies. Your situation describes my old job to a t, minus management getting fired (70% turnover, inexperienced hires who aren’t properly trained, but are looked down upon for not knowing anything.) I would job search if I were you, solely based on my experience. I was at my last job for 10 months and was miserable. You have to weigh whether the potential bonus coming your way in a year would be worth the toxic environment.

  169. Lupin Lady*

    So I think that I’m being pretty reasonable here, but I’d like some objective opinions on my boss’ attempt at humour.

    A little over a year ago I started work at a start up. Within the first month my boss called me “Sweetie” (I’m late 20s, he’s not quite 50). I let it go, but the next time he called me Sweetie (a week later) I told him I don’t like being called that: he made excuses about how it means he likes me, and a week later had a phone conversation in front of me in which he talked about how “some people get offended and think it’s condescending”, but at least he didn’t use the nickname again. Except over the past year he has (in jest) called me both “girlfriend” and “doll”. My response both times was to glare at him, which seemed to work.

    Last week he commented to me that another coworker may not respect me as much, insinuating it was because I was a woman. I told my boss that no, I’d never gotten that sense from coworker but that if I had gotten that from anyone, it was him. And I went on to say that I didn’t like being called those nicknames, and I wanted to state that for the record. He said he wasn’t a bad guy, and that they were jokes, and eventually he jokingly called me a bitch! I reiterated sternly that “It isn’t funny” and that ended it, but the entire thing is just weird. Otherwise my boss is a good leader, but has an entirely inappropriate ‘humour’ for the workplace.

    What should I make of this? A part of me thinks this kind of leadership adds to the already uncertain nature of working for a start up, and that if we do “make it” this kind of behaviour could be big trouble for us.

    1. ExcelJedi*

      While I read his response to you, all I could hear him saying was: “Your pointing out my sexist bullshit is a direct attack on me.” I wonder if he tweets with a notallmen hashtag, too?

      You’re being 100% reasonable. He’s an ass. Document that you’ve asked him to stop with these nicknames, and document it every time he does it again. Retroactively document every time you can remember him doing it in the past. Then go to HR, because this is unacceptable.

      2. Lupin Lady*

        I’m glad for the validation, but what do I do if there is no HR? Go to the Board of Directors?

        1. ExcelJedi*

          IANAL, but in that case, I’d talk to a lawyer about it, at least to find out if it’s worth pursuing. It might be better to just start looking for a new job, but you might have better options.

    2. Millennial Lawyer*

      So this is tricky because it’s your boss. But even “jokingly” calling you a bitch is definitely not okay. I’m not sure how to handle this other than documenting your interactions like this with him and see if going to HR is something you’re interested in. Otherwise… I’m not sure, clearly your boss isn’t going to change and has no intention of stopping.

    3. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

      I had older male contractors try to call me sweetie when I worked at a county health department. It stopped real quick when I calmly told them that calling me “sweetie” or “babydoll” was an invitation to halt any inspection immediately and for me to leave until they apologized and rescheduled, and enforced it. (to be clear, it wasn’t just the words, it was also the completely condescending tones and general refusal to listen to and comply with county requirements when they were directed to them by me)

      It is inappropriate to refer to anyone with nicknames that they didn’t ask you to use, and even more so when the nicknames are meant to be demeaning or provocative. It’s even more irritating when you are a young or young appearing woman, because it tends to make it more difficult to be taken seriously/feel like you’re being taken seriously.

      It’s hard when it’s your superior that’s doing this, I understand that – when old crazy BossLady decided to harp on me about my apparent (nonexistent) anorexia, it was a last straw that made me start looking for a new job in earnest. I only brought it up to her superiors when I was already leaving. But I did tell her it was highly inappropriate to comment on anyone’s weight, let along bring up an eating disorder in such an accusatory fashion. I felt really lost in who to bring the issue up to since there wasn’t a whole lot of people above her, and the guy that was was pretty unavailable as well. I do wish I would have said something sooner, only because said Guy was the person doing the exit interview and point blank asked me about it. Apparently someone else said something to him. So if you can get someone in HR – I’d do it.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Ugh this is hard. The reason it’s extra tricky is because the person doing it often feels that it is a sign of affection for you – so in their eyes, you’re also rejecting their offer of affection. That’s probably why he now thinks you’re b*tchy. Sadly when the person is in a position of power I find I need to appease them if I want to keep myself moving along. “Would you mind using “Emmie” instead of “Sweetie”? Sweetie reminds me of my grandmother.” But condolences, you shouldn’t even have to deal with this.

    4. beanie beans*

      Ugh, it sucks that it’s your boss and sucks worse that you don’t have an HR. You have handled it so well so far by speaking up about what you’re not comfortable with! And he is being an ass for not only continuing to make sexist comments, but by making it seem like you’re the problem for being too sensitive or whatever.

      My office is going through the same thing right now. Women are finally standing up and speaking out against sexist behavior, but only to be met with condescension, getting blown off, and being labeled as overly sensitive or too serious. We’re in a lose-lose situation really.

      I don’t have any great advice, just appreciation that you’re speaking up!

  170. OliveJuice90*

    Hello,
    I’m in need of some professional/personal advice. All of the individuals involved, including myself and my spouse are involved in the same professional field but do not work for the same organization. Think something like freelancing. I recently found out that a former friend , “MJ” told a person “CR” who is much higher up in the field that I abuse my spouse/refuse to work. Neither of those are remotely true. The way that I found out was because CR contacted another mutual friend “JT” to ask if that was true. JT defended me and CR said that they were afraid that they had been lied to and felt horrible because they had expressed concern for my spouse to other people in our field and they now felt very guilty. Here’s the super problematic kicker. MJ is dating CR’s (adult) child but not only that- it has become apparent that MJ is extremely abusive and is actively harming CR’s child. That is why CR began questioning MJ in the first place. Here is where my problem comes in. JT told me about these accusations in confidence- CR had asked them not to tell me because CR is afraid that if a lot of this gets out to the community then MJ will further harm CR’s child. I feel like I have no recourse here to clear my name because I truly feel bad for CR’s child and am concerned for them. CR is trying to get their child out of this relationship but I know that’s much easier said than done/really only up to CR’s child to leave. Does anyone have any advice? I’m terrified that this rumor could affect me professionally depending on who it’s out to but I’m also afraid I’ll be blamed if I start asking around and MJ decides to take it out on CR jr.

      1. Re: CR Jr.*

        No advice just sincere hopes this doesn’t impact you professionally. As far as CR Jr’s situation-Since you are aware a child is being abused, please call your local department of social services and report the abuse to the child protective services department. You can call from a phone that is not attached to your name and report anonymously. I know this puts you in a terrible position but harm to a child is not a secret that should be kept and silence keeps the child in danger. Please call.

  171. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Super late to this thread, but I got my first real law job! Pay isn’t that great, but a living wage, and benefits and a stable schedule and environment. I’m just happy I won’t need to be worrying as much about money or always looking for the next contract gig.

  172. Fabulous*

    Had the conversation with my boss on Wednesday about my requested raise. Well, I’m not getting a raise… but I am getting a promotion / changing jobs! With increased salary!

    So in July, I will be getting at least $10,000 more (what my boss guaranteed me) with a possibility of even more because the new job description’s pay range is even higher. This will be a) more than I asked for, and b) about a 26% increase in my pay. Woohoo! Now to just wait until July…

  173. Kathy H.*

    I started a new position about 2 months ago and absolutely love it. I just attended a conference and met someone who applied to my job and, well, obviously didn’t get it. The conversation completely stalled when he said “Oh, I applied to that job…” and just left that hanging there, because I didn’t really know what to say in response other than “Sorry?” This is a somewhat small field and many postings at good institutions will get 100+ applications, so this is bound to happen again. What would be your recommendation on how to respond in that situation?

    1. Kathleen_A*

      “I’m really enjoying it so far. So what about (topic change to something related to your mutual field but not the sadness of applying for a job that you end up not getting)?”

    2. Susan K*

      That must have been awkward! I think I would just say something like, “Oh, small world, huh?” and change the subject.

    3. Yolo*

      It was probably news to that person. If only employers would send an actual “we went a different direction” message to all applicants!

  174. Me--Blargh*

    Had an interview yesterday with a personal injury law firm (the big one here). The hiring manager and one of the attorneys I met seem nice and the job seems okay; no phones, mostly assistant to paralegals and the attorneys. It’s a lot of document work. Yay! Probably mostly typing, though. Oh well.

    I don’t know how I did–I really really hate when the people interviewing you barely talk and ask you almost NO questions. It makes you wonder what they’ll be like as managers.

    They said they asked a few people (including me) for references. I don’t know if that’s good or bad. :P If they actually call my old boss, I know she will wax poetic about me so I’m not worried about that.

    It’s so frustrating, after getting such good pay and benefits, that all the rest of the jobs here just blow, really. I did apply for a job in StL — their application system didn’t let me upload my cover letter and there’s no way to get to it again. Nuts!!!

    I also applied for an editor job with a federal agency (temporary, but with opportunity for extension) in Atlanta, where I really don’t want to go but it would be a good learning experience. Hahaha, there is NO WAY I’m getting contacted about that one. :’D

    3. Me--Blargh*

      OH CRAP THE ST LOUIS JOB CALLED ME.

      Also, I just tweeted something that got 50 likes in just a few minutes. I think I need to make a wish.

    5. Alianora*

      I had a couple interviews like the one you described — impersonal and offputting. (One was also in law, but I don’t know if it’s related.) Worst thing about it is that you don’t get the chance to evaluate the employer.

  175. Karyn*

    So, last week I posted a question about how to deal with a client who is trying to complain about your rates. Some people gave me really good advice as to how to handle him, and I wanted to give an update.

    I had my meeting with him on Wednesday, and he was complaining that he “didn’t understand” how I flat fee billed him. I explained that I billed him the same as my mother used to (he was a client of hers for 15 years before she became a lawyer and passed him off to me) – that is, if the file is a normal, run of the mill settlement letter, I charge $35. If it’s an expandable folder, then it’s $60 to $100, depending on the complexity. Legal documents like Complaints are $40 and upward, again, depending on the complexity.

    He said that he’d rather be on an hourly rate (and gave some BS about how he didn’t know that’s how mom was charging for FIFTEEN YEARS). I told him I would do that, but I’d need to charge $35 per hour. He said he couldn’t pay that much, because he didn’t even pay his secretaries that. I explained that I’m absorbing all the taxes as an independent contractor, that I am a skilled professional with a JD rather than his secretaries who only do basic administrative work, and that under the flat fee arrangement, I don’t charge him for phone calls, emails, travel time to pick up or drop off files, or rush documents (he has a tendency to need things within 24 hours). He tried to tell me that I would “be paying the taxes even if I was a W2 employee” (I had to explain the difference between federal/state/local tax and employment taxes) and that he didn’t think anyone would pay me $35 per hour. Also not true because I have three clients who do.

    Now, I’m not unreasonable, and I want to keep him as a client, so I told him I could do $25 an hour at the lowest, but that I would have to start charging for everything, including those phone calls, emails, etc. I also pointed out that right now, a normal file takes me two hours to do minimum. He didn’t budge, so we agreed to $25 an hour. I put all the terms in writing and emailed them to him later that day (if Jim Comey has taught me nothing else, it’s to keep receipts!).

    The funny part is, I now have a stack of ten files to do that will cost him upwards of $500, when, if he had kept the standard arrangement, would only have cost $350. I also charged him $50 for the meeting time and travel time. Oh well. That’s what happens. Oh, and by the way, the invoice that started all this? Was $100.

    Thanks for all your advice, guys!

    2. CM*

      Nice! When I read $25/hour I was worried you were shortchanging yourself, but you had a good outcome! And I suppose if your client comes back angry, you can go back to your original position.

      1. Karyn*

        The only other client I work for who pays the $25 an hour rate is my mom’s firm – and that’s because she gets a family discount, and she always pays on time. Everyone else starts at $35 (although I start negotiations at $45 and work down from there). And yeah, I put all this in writing, so that if he complains, I can point to the email and go, “You were warned!”

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      I hate to be the wet blanket here, but it’s not over yet. It’s not over until he pays you the first bill under the new terms. That will tell you whether he has really accepted the new reality of the situation. Please update us again about what happens after you send him your next bill.

  176. beanie beans*

    Well, my “full of red flags” interview Monday has gotten me as close to a new job as I’ve been since I’ve been searching for the past year, but I’m telling myself they’d have to present me with a pretty astounding offer for me to take the position.

    A bummer to have invested so much time, but time well spent since they had me sold on the position in the beginning before everything started to unravel (very disorganized in their whole process, HR person and Hiring Manager about $15K off in their budgeted range for the position, really depressing benefits)

  177. Pina Colada*

    I don’t see how religion implies having or not having an accent though. Is the assumption that Christian=English speaking? There are certainly many English-speaking people of non-Christian faiths, and many non-English speaking Christians, and every variety in between. Language=/=religion=/=culture=/=race.

  178. Anonymous5*

    I’m late to the party but wonder if anyone has some advice for starting a new job that you really need but the employer presented themselves … differently.

    I had a bit of a gap on my resume due to relocation for personal reasons and this job sounded great at the interview. I took a bit of a pay cut to take this job since it sounded so good and the benefits were decent. Their answers to my questions at the interview (about office culture, about management) are so off. I can’t tell if they lied outright or if they really do think they are acting and have policies the way they claimed they did.

    I’m not sure what to do. I don’t feel like I’m in a good position to move on since I have such a gap on my resume as is. Do I just suck it up and bear it for a year or two?

    1. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

      For me it would depend on how egregious the lies were and how badly the actual environment/policies/etc would affect me. Said they had coffee/pastries for free, and really they don’t? Well, dunno why they’d lie about that, but something that level, I’d stay and roll my eyes. Said it was a very fun, collaborative culture and right now everyone’s aloof? Well, could be because I’m new and shy, so I’ll give it a month at least and see if it changes. Said I would get 2 weeks PTO and now I get none? Bring it up to management/HR and see if it gets fixed, otherwise, probably would start looking to leave. They lied about having a 90% turnover rate and my manager aggressively hates everyone? Oh boy, probably just start looking for a new position.

      1. Anonymous5*

        Good points! It seems to fall shy of “aggressively hates everyone,” but they definitely claimed they had a flat organizational structure, didn’t micromanage, were open to input and ideas from everyone. A very peer to peer environment rather than structured hierarchy. And it leans so far into structured hierarchy and office politics that I can’t really fathom how they could tell me this and not realize it wasn’t true.

        1. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

          With that I’d probably try it out for a month or so and see if I could grow to tolerate, and if not, start looking again. Lying about office management structure is a red-tinged flag for me, since if they’re willing to lie about or are just that oblivious about a management structure, what else are they doing? I think that’s a basic thing to know about positions – who reports to that position and who do they report to. Seems odd that they either wouldn’t know or lied about it, when you’d figure it out pretty easily when you’d start work.

          Is there a lot of turnover – were they desperate to fill the position? (IE – are they just dumb, or needed someone to the point that they were manipulative?)

          1. Anonymous5*

            I am the third person in this role in under 3 years, which I had hoped they would have told me when I asked how long employees tend to stay. To me, it looks like they’re bending the truth to make themselves look better to get someone in, but I’m trying to not be paranoid or negative after only a month and a half.

  179. All. Is. On.*

    Hope I’m not too late for people to notice this!
    So, long story short, a bunch of colleagues and I rent apartments from the company we work for because we’re foreigners and it’s hard to find furnished apartments in this country and so they offer an affordable option. One colleague went on vacation this week and she asked me to cat-sit for her. I checked in two or three times a day to change the litter box, refresh the water bowl and make sure there was enough food for the cat, and to give some cuddles because this is a cat that loves affection and doesn’t enjoy alone time so much.
    Colleague returned yesterday, and I thought she was coming in the morning so I didn’t check in on the cat before work. She came by in the early afternoon to pick up her keys, and within minutes she texted me asking if I had left a cake and a few tins of cat food in the kitchen. I had not.
    She found a note with the cake from a neighbour, let’s call her Sue, saying the cat was crying a lot and she was worried about it. She left her phone number on the note. The neighbour didn’t know my colleague was on vacation. When my colleague texted her asking about the situation, they had a language barrier issue but she established that this woman left the cake and the tins of cat food in a bag that she left by colleague’s front door (outside the apartment), so she went to the person at our company who manages the apartments. This person said there’s no way someone got into her apartment and claimed it must have been me. I KNOW for a fact I did not bring cake and cat food into the apartment.
    I suspect the company is lying. And now I suspect they let themselves into our apartments whenever they feel like it. This is not the first time someone has had this sort of issue. Even with my apartment, they’ve called me in the office (not on my phone, calling the office phone) saying, “We’re going to your apartment right now because (random issue).” No notice, no asking if I want to be there. Another colleague mentioned that his girlfriend slept over at his place once and a company employee showed up while he was at work and she was still sleeping in his bed.
    I don’t have a question, really. I gave my notice and I’m leaving in a month. But! This is crazy, right?!

        1. dr_silverware*

          Depends on where you are. In the US, tenants’ rights laws vary spectacularly from city to city. For instance my lease specifies that I need an hour’s notice before entrance (which is outrageously short already) but that short length of time isn’t illegal in my city.

          Then it depends on what you’d be hoping to get out of any legal quarrel you start. For instance, my landlords violated that; I was able to call and remind them about what’s on the lease. But I kept documentation of the violations in case I wanted to fight in court to avoid penalty if I needed to break my lease. And if it happens again I’ll definitely escalate.

          You’re leaving, so there’s not much in this fight for you, but it might be worth advising whoever at your company hooked you up with the apartments that this is happening.

          All that said…I do want to validate you that it is really pretty nasty to have someone walk into your home like that, even if it’s the property manager. I completely understand.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I had something weirdly similar happen. It seemed like the property manager found some reason to be in the apartment at least once a week. I would find the locks altered from how I left them, so I knew they were coming in without mentioning it. Weirdly, I don’t even think they were up to anything shady, I think they just felt like they had the right to come on in any time since it was THEIR property after all. I moved out.

      1. foolofgrace*

        I had a similar problem except I didn’t know who was coming in my apartment, plus they left the door unlocked. I had them change the locks once and it kept happening so they thought I was crazy. It got to the point I would get home from work, get my revolver, and go thru the apartment looking for intruders. Pretty scary. I moved out.

    3. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

      Not sure where you’re located, but check tenant rights laws where you are (federal/state/regional/city/etc). Where I was, the landlord had to give a certain amount of notice before entering, unless there was a dire emergency or police orders to enter. Usually it’s been 48 hours, but I did have one place where it was 24. IIRC, it required a written ‘notice of entry’ – they had to email or physically put a piece of paper on/under the door.

    4. FD*

      Just FYI, this may be illegal. In some but not all states, a landlord is required to give ‘reasonable’ notice if they’re entering your apartment (generally, 24-48 hours) unless there’s an emergency such as a burst pipe.

  180. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

    Okay so, dilemma.

    A lot of our projects are behind schedule. We had our weekly staff meeting and our senior site manager said that for his major project, his supervisors and team leads should be walking around and observing more and “making sure everyone is working.” Which sounds a bit like hovering over people to me, but I didn’t say anything because it’s not my direct problem.

    A couple of days later, we had problems accessing an old computer. Since I have a reputation for being technical, I got asked to fix it (we have an IT department, but they’re busy and I like fixing things). One of the other supervisors and a team lead were on my shoulder for a lot of it and asking me to fix it ASAP until I asked them to please step away until I figured out the issue. (I didn’t say they were making me uncomfortable, but they were.)

    I say all of this to say…if I was stressed out over having that small amount of pressure on me, I can’t imagine how it feels to be working there daily! Should I suggest that they maybe be careful to make people not feel as if they’re being watched? Do I even have standing to?

    For further context, I used to work in that department for a year (not at the top), but got transferred to a different one. (I’m happier in the new department.) We’ve worked together for years, and have what I think is a good rapport. On the other hand, I’m not that high in the formal hierarchy, and I’m a little wary of criticizing their management from outside.

    1. Just Peachy*

      I think it kind of depends on who you’re talking to. You say you’re not high in the formal hierarchy, but since you worked with them for years, you probably have a good sense of how they typically react to things. When you worked for them, did they seem to value your opinion? Were they accepting of constructive criticism, or did they deflect it? Just a few things to consider.

      For what it’s worth, I totally agree that the way their watching over everyone is ridiculous. It’s the kind of thing that causes low morale among employees and makes people eventually leave. Employees want to be trusted to work hard and do a good job, not micromanaged and scrutinized.

      1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

        So that was part of my concern as well – I mentioned in my reply below that I was promoted internally, but I remember that when I had supervisors hover over me, it drove me crazy! (For what it’s worth, I usually got great marks as an individual contributor. I’ll admit I wasn’t always on task while on the clock, but I was always well above average in terms of my productivity.)

        From what I know…the manager is a little set in his ways anyway. Once he decides on something, that is the way It Should Be Done. (I push back sometimes, and he has changed his mind on some things! But it’s really difficult to get him to that point.) For what it’s worth, after getting it all out, it’s not worth the capital right now anyway.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I would not say anything. A few years ago, our department head announced that a lot of our department had been observed by his bosses to be off task regularly and this needed to change. I hate the idea that someone is looking over my shoulder, but I think the best way to avoid that is to perform so that no one feel s they need to. (In your case, they were probably just interested in what you were doing, not trying to say you had any issues.)

      If it got to the point in that department at your place that work wasn’t getting done and people needed to be more tightly managed, well, they should have been doing their work. They should be uncomfortable, imho. Now, I think if they turn things around, then the bosses should relax a little. Personally, I would have handled it more directly with the people who were having the problems, but maybe it was a large percentage and this is more effective right now.

      1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

        You’re right – they were interested! I think part of it is particular to me where I really dislike having people hover behind me for whatever reason, and I might be projecting a little. I’ve also been on the other side, since I was promoted from within – so I still sometimes think of things as a floor employee. So when that happened, I kind of thought, “man, I get what’s going on, but Jane and Fergus are really intense and need to tone it down!”

        You’re also right in that the team (and all our teams) does need tight management at times, so it’s not a completely bad thing to hover a little bit. Sometimes you need to check in a lot!

        On the other hand, I try to be as subtle as possible, since 1) I’m really tall and really noticeable to begin with and 2) I’m personally afraid of making people feel stressed and having them make mistakes. 1 is unique to me, but I feel like 2 is a more general concern, since accuracy is important in our work.

  181. Youngin*

    In the spirit of 4/20 I’d like other opinions on Marijuana use and the workplace.

    I don’t mean using at work, or being high at work, or anything that could affect work production in reference to Mary Jane. But i’m curious, if weed was not included in your companies drug policy, and was legalized, would you judge a co-workers (or boss or whomevers) professionalism for using the drug recreationally outside of work?

    I love hearing all the vastly different opinions on this.

    1. H.C.*

      It depends on how frequently they use it, how high they get & if they engage in potentially dangerous activities while stoned.

      1. Red Reader*

        Same. As long as they’re not coming to work post-consumption, coming to work smelling like their substance of choice, or telling me all about their wild drunken/stoned shenanigans, I don’t care. (The last time I smoked pot, I won a Jaegermeister drinking contest. I no longer smoke pot OR drink Jaegermeister. :P You guys don’t work with me, so you can hear that.)

      2. Snark*

        Yup. I don’t want to smell it, hear about it, or notice it, but whatever you partake of in your personal time is fine by me.

    3. Yolo*

      If the information about my coworkers’ recreational legal drug use was reaching my ears in a detailed manner, I would find that unprofessional the same as any other excessive discussion of personal behaviors outside of work (I still don’t know where about half of my team of 10 fall on the drinker-teetotaler scale, and I’ve been at this job 2.5 years). I am in a particularly socially-detached workplace and geographical setup, though.

    4. fposte*

      I have no idea whether most of my co-workers do or don’t, and that’s about where I am on their alcohol use, so I’d like to maintain that level of ignorance.

    5. Anonny*

      I use it medicinally in edible micro-doses for migraines and anxiety in a state where both medicinal and recreational use are legal. My manager and coworkers are aware because I’ve talked to them casually about it and they know I take such small doses (2-5mg at a time) that I don’t get high, I just feel better. Not sure how corporate would feel but headquarters is in a state with the same laws. No big deal in my neck of the woods but I’m sure it would be different if I were smoking up in my car all day but my weed looks like a tiny gummy vitamin! :)

    6. FD*

      I agree with others that have said that they’d see it as drinking–fine as long as it’s not on company time and they aren’t driving buzzed.

      That said, I find the scent of marijuana smoke as offensive or more so than cigarette smoke so I might find it hard to share an office with a user who smelled of that.

    7. Alianora*

      I see it as slightly more taboo than drinking. Finding out someone uses weed would be the same for me as finding out someone drinks. However, at some of my workplace events (during working hours) they’ll sometimes provide beer or wine along with snacks and non-alcoholic beverages. I would be pretty shocked if they provided weed in any form.

      I use it myself occasionally and don’t mention it. I don’t drink at work events either. My coworkers may be under the impression that I don’t partake in any mind-altering substances, come to think of it — I don’t even drink coffee.

  182. shep*

    I’m a little late to the open thread today, but I’m about to embark on a job search for the first time in about four years. I like where I am now for the most part and am not in a panicked abandon-ship mode, but there have been recent structural changes and some questionable behavior from senior staff that make me think, “Yeah, okay, time to start looking.”

    But I am scared sh**less. I took a cursory look at jobs related to my educational background and/or ones that would dovetail with my work experience, and they all seem like “stretch” positions. I have a ton of relevant education and experience in one area, but many job descriptions want that PLUS an area (or areas) I have little to no experience in.

    I know logically that I just need to get over it and send the best application I can for things that really speak to me, but it’s tough, you know? And then there’s self-doubt and imposter sydrome, so it’s basically a lovely cocktail of anxiety.

    Anyone been in the same situation? How did you deal with it?

    1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      To be honest, when I have anxiety about anything job related, I come to this site. I’ll read EVERYTHING pertaining to my current issue, whatever it is. I pretend I have a little Alison on my shoulder cheering me on.
      Good luck! This internet stranger thinks you can do it! :)

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      That sounds a lot like where I was six months ago. I started casually looking back then and it was nice to be able to pick and choose what I applied to and what interviews I accepted. You can definitely do it!

    3. nep*

      I’m sure many of us can relate. Helps me to read as much as I can about the area of work I’m trying to get into and talk with people in the industry if possible…Also reading about the job-hunting process (especially tips on this site), and typing out some of my answers/stories I could draw from in interviews.
      Really in the end it’s just about putting yourself out there and preparing as best you can. Putting one foot in front of the other and keep pushing forward. You’ll make strides and missteps along the way and that’s all part of it. You’ll get there. Good luck.

  183. Just Peachy*

    My husband is graduating PA school next week and now has not one, but TWO job offers on the table! We’ve been leaving off my salary while he’s been in school for the past 2.5 years. It’ll be really nice having our combined income triple overnight. Just gotta attack those student loans now. :)

  184. DietCokeHead*

    I applied for a job last week and this week, the hr recruiter from that company left me a vm asking me to call her back. I called back and left her a vm. She called me back and left a vm. Now, I’m a little frustrated because since I am currently at work in a cubicle, I really can’t answer her calls since I don’t want to tip anyone off that I am looking. So today I called her back and got her vm again. I left a message but also asked if it would be more useful to email me to let me know when she would be calling next so I can be sure to be available. Am I hurting my chances here?

    1. Liz Lemon*

      No! Definitely not hurting your chances. I mean think about it, what kind of a crazy person would you have to be to see a earnest question about “best means of communication,” as a negative trait? Those are just your nerves talking.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Recruiters are very aware that currently employed individuals are not always readily available to speak. Don’t worry about it.

    3. The Other Thursday Next*

      I always give my cell phone number, and then when the person calls, I say, “Give me a minute to get to a conference room.” Then I go to a private space and take the call. I’ve never had anyone raise an eyebrow because I think everyone gets a personal call at work that they don’t want coworkers to overhear, like the doctor’s office calling with your test results or your kid’s teacher calling because your kid won’t stop singing “The Star Spangled Banner” during math.

      1. DietCokeHead*

        Unfortunately the best conference room for personal calls is completely on the other side of the building from my cubicle. I’ve stepped into our printer room for other calls but that’s not really private.

        1. Woodswoman*

          I had this exact experience, and it’s worked to just call them back. I gave out my cell number and when I got the call, I just said I needed to call back from another space in a couple minutes. This gives you time to get to another part of the building to a private space, without making them wait while you’re heading over. Then you can avoid missing each other. Good luck!

  185. Liz Lemon*

    So I’m late to this party but I’m having a strange and intense work week. I have only been at Current Job for 6 months, but a recruiter reached out about a job that was very interesting to me and, despite the timing, we talked and they offered me the job, which I accepted.

    So I quit at Current Job today. And then a VP reached out to and said, basically, “The Big Bosses think you are really great and you should ask for the moon—on terms of position and salary. They would probably give it to you.”

    Which is totally flattering and Totally Overwhelming.

    Has anyone ever been in this sort of position? I don’t even know how to tell what I want, never mind what to do.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I have not been in that position, but I would say make a pro and con list.

      What would be the good things about staying and what would be the bad ones?

      Not just stuff like salary & benefits, but long term opportunities and work/life balance and everything.

    2. The Other Thursday Next*

      Personally I wouldn’t go ask my manager for the moon after I’d already resigned, regardless of what the VP says. If the manager wanted to keep you, the moon would be sitting at your desk. If the VP wants to go to bat for you, then fine. But outside that, I would feel good about his feedback but keep my plans to join new company.

      1. Jill*

        Yeah, if you think you would he willing to stay for the right moon, ask the VP to find out what they would be willing to offer. He’s the one who reached out to you so if you are willing to negotiate then you should go through him.

    3. sange*

      Congratulations! That’s a great position to be in, and a wonderful testament to your work. I was in that position two jobs ago, but I was switching careers and it made it easy to say no, there’s nothing. If you can imagine staying – and would actually stay if they met your demands – go for it in terms of salary, vacation time, work conditions (do you want to work from home?), and shifting responsibilities. When I left the job, they offered me raise and title change, plus a change in some responsibilities. But alas I wanted to go into the arts…

    4. Snark*

      I had a similar experience fairly recently – we received news that our entire task order was being laid off (13 people), and the clients I work with were, like, coming into my office, giving me hugs, emailing all their friends and former coworkers to find me a job. People were fighting mad that our support was going away, saying things like “I have no idea how I’m gonna run my program without your help.”

      And then when it became really clear that there was a job in town, at another installation, which I was qualified for? Five people personally recommended me, unprompted. It is Totally Overwhelming.

  186. Weasel007*

    Just a vent…Somehow my email address at work has gotten into the hands of a dozen or more sales folks emailing me sometimes multiple times a day with cold sales calls, and reminders about the previous 3 emails they sent this week. One sent so many after I blacklisted him that I was so ready to tell him I would put him on the entire corp blacklist acct if he didn’t leave me alone. No, I can’t really do that. But in a company with over 280,000 worldwide, I do not need to give someone an hour of my time to tell me about the latest db technology, or graphic arts program. Normally I delete and ignore. Second time I block. Where are these people crawling out from?? If I tell them I am not the person who has authority or interest in supply chain they try to get me to tell them who is (again…280,000 employees…NO CLUE). They are starting to call me on my office phone which tells me they have access to the directory. Arrrrgggghhhhhh!

    1. Environmental Compliance (was Environmental Navy Wife)*

      That sounds incredibly annoying. Is there anyone you can escalate this to (maybe involve IT?)? I mean, several calls and emails are to the point of harassment. I’d just hang up on them at this point or screen calls if you can.

    2. periwinkle*

      Arrrrrgh, I get those as well. “Following up on my email, are you free for a call tomorrow afternoon?” Hell no I’m not, how did you even get my name?

      I’ve gone from blocking on the second attempt to just blocking on the first.

      1. London Calling*

        Can you write a rule that anything from x company goes straight to the deleted folder? I appreciate it isn’t a solution for the calls, unless you can get those numbers blocked.

    3. Fresh Faced*

      I used to get that on my email, I ended up with a stock draft email along the lines of:

      “Hi spammer,
      I’m not interested in (insert product/service), please remove my information from your contact lists. ”

      Regards,
      Fresh faced”

      Same sort of phrasing with calls. If they continue they (might) get one more email saying that I’ve already told them to remove my information from their database and to not contact me again, after that it’s blocking. I got lucky in that a large chunk of the spammers seemed to stem from the same place so a few of those emails stopped nearly all the cold call emails I got.

  187. Salsterr*

    Does anyone have any advice for switching careers? I’ve been working in various assistant positions for the past ten years, but now I want to become more specialized. I feel so overwhelmed while browsing jobs to get a feel for what skill/knowledge gaps I may have to overcome, especially when considering I will likely be competing with much younger workers. Any way to make it seem much more effortless (even if it’s not!)?

    1. Jill*

      I did a major career change about 10 years ago. The best thing to do is talk to people who are already in the positions you want to get to, and also the people who hire those people. They can tell you exactly what skills they are looking for and the best ways to move in that direction.

  188. 60 Minutes*

    Did anyone watch 60 Mins this past Sunday? The second (third?) part of the episode was about Salesforce and how they too had a gender pay gap.

    Simple question: how does this happen? Did someone in HR decide that Maria Would get paid $30/hr and a year later Darryl comes on board with the same experience as Maria but he deserves $35/hr for the same job?

    1. The Other Thursday Next*

      So, so, so many reasons to answer your simple question:
      1. Maria has historically been underpaid at previous employers, and current employer offered salary based on her salary history, thereby creating an unending predicament of never get paid what she’s worth.
      2. Maria didn’t negotiate salary when hired because as women we’re taught not to toot our own horn and ask for more than we’re given.
      3. Darryl doesn’t have problem #1 or #2. He’s always been paid what he’s worth and has no qualms about negotiating for a higher salary.

      Those are usually the top reasons (rather than outright misogyny) and how I’ve seen it played out where I work.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        The one that irritates me is the hidden pay gap, where Maria is a level 2 but Darryl is a level 3, so when they compare the salaries, the gap is justifiable. I’ve worked with people who couldn’t get promoted because they had experience in “A, B, C, but not D”, and then they continued to get only “A, B, C” assignments. Maria racks up 4 years of experience becoming an ABC expert, and gets stuck there, while Darryl is rocketing up the ladder with something new to add to his resume every 6 months.

        When you’re a new woman to the workforce, I don’t think you realize this is happening unless you’re fortunate enough to have mentors to point it out. You think you just aren’t ready, you’re excited about your ABC expertise, and you really have no idea what is going on with your “peers” until you wake up one day and they’re EVPs and you aren’t.

      2. 60 Minutes*

        Thank you! I meant to add: Simple question (with a not so simple answer)!

        Interesting: it took $6 million for Saleforce to pay everyone equally.

  189. zora*

    Pet peeve of the day:

    Coworker who always sends an IM just saying “Hi, zora”
    With no question.
    If I don’t respond right away, she disappears from IM and sends an email instead.

    In my opinion the whole POINT of IM is that it is for quick questions, so just SEND THE QUESTION!!!! You don’t need me to say “Hi” before you can send a question, just freaking send it already!!

    1. foolofgrace*

      Maybe she knows she’ll need an answer asap, and she first wants to ascertain whether you’re in front of your computer. So if you’re not there, she’ll go ask someone else. Just a thought. Although when I’m in that position I’ll say “Hey, you there?”

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I work with some people who send the “Hi” IM before launching into their question. Usually, they send the next one whether I respond or not, though. I’m with you, just send the question.

      However, the flip side is when I send people who are “green” an IM asking a quick question and they don’t respond. This is particularly annoying now that I work in a remote office. I know sometimes you leave your desk & it takes a minute to change to “yellow”, or you’re really busy, or just didn’t see it, but these are the perpetual offenders who can’t answer you, but always have 3 other IM conversations with their buddies up on screen when you walk by.

    3. The Other Thursday Next*

      To me, IM is just like an in-person conversation. Just like I’d be taken aback if someone came to my desk and launched into a question without greeting me first, I’m the same with IM. Sometimes it takes me a moment or two to finish something (like an e-mail) before I answer.

    4. periwinkle*

      What’s the norm in your office/work group?

      The standard here (and it seems like everyone follows it) is to send “IM?” or “Available to chat?” or some similar message, even if the recipient is showing as available. It’s like knocking on the office door rather than just walking in and asking a question.

      We also do a ton of virtual meetings, which means screen sharing, and you really don’t want some IMs being accidentally displayed during a meeting…

    5. Quaggaquagga*

      Oooh, yes this drives me nuts as well! It just prolongs the interruption to my work (forced to reply with “hey, what’s up”) whereas if they just sent the question, it’s possible I could respond in one quick text, or make the decision to set aside what I’m doing to help them.

      Another pet peeve is people
      who won’t condense
      their message
      into one IM
      lol

    6. Cute Li'l UFO*

      Oh yes, this. I had a worthless PM who started every google chat/hangout/whatever it’s called with “hi” but most of the time didn’t even wait for an answer. Like, what’s the point?

      Whenever I receive a message that says nothing but “Hi” I feel my stomach drop and I have a flashback to that job. God, I hated that place.

      How about people who send you an email and then IMMEDIATELY show up silently behind you when it shows up in your inbox? Another place I’m glad to be free of.

  190. KayEss*

    Bah, more recruiter woes… I don’t even seek out recruiter agencies to “help with my search,” or whatever I just apply to positions posted by them that I think would be a good fit, and then they keep calling me wanting to do a generic interview and add me to their stable with no position in mind. Which is fine, but right now I’m dealing with a place that wants me to drive an hour to their downtown office to “interview” and complete I-9 paperwork for positions that they won’t tell me about or even confirm exist! I APPLIED to a position that they posted (and therefore presumably DOES exist) and had been up for less than 24 hours, that’s how they found out about me, but apparently they don’t want to talk about that! It wasn’t even that good of a position, so if you don’t think you can place me in something like that, I don’t want to talk to you at all!

    I managed to talk them into a phone conversation instead, because if you’re trying to move so fast in your placements that you want my I-9 filled out before even putting me up for consideration, I get the distinct sense that you’re going to serve me a lot of short-term contract positions that I explicitly DON’T WANT. So at this point, the call is definitely going to be much more of an “okay, convince me you’re not a glorified temp agency and can actually do something for me that makes it worth working with you” situation rather than me conforming to their bureaucratic whims on the hope that they deign to offer me a series of bad jobs they can’t get placements for.

    Possibly unfairly hostile of me, but I’m SO SICK of these agencies, I can’t even. Not a SINGLE one has ever contacted me after I did the initial interview with them, so there’s no way I’m putting in multiple hours of commute and effort just to pad their candidate portfolio.

  191. Boo*

    Librarians! I’m starting a job hunt, leaving current job late June at the earliest. I want to avoid causing a headache for future job by applying to jobs too early, but I want to get moving, too.

    How long does your org’s hiring process typically take from interview to first day? And what type of org do you work for (if you don’t mind saying)?

    Here’s my answer: Public library as part of city, 2 months-ish from interview to hire for external candidates.

    1. Sparkly Librarian*

      Public library as part of city, 2 months-ish from interview to hire for external candidates… but more than a year from application to interview. I’d look for open postings now, and apply as soon as you can.

        1. Sparkly Librarian*

          Yes. Sometimes there are multiple openings at once in the same job class , and sometimes they are a long time coming (they tend to be filled internally).

  192. Wednesday*

    I work the front desk at my job, and a lot of people stop to have conversations with me. This is great for the most part, but how can I tell someone who’s being too invasive to back off, while still being the “nice front desk girl” that people like to chat with?

    More info: Most conversations I have are work-related or pretty casual, but there are some co-workers I have a closer friendship with, and I may share more personal details (like: “Oh, I’m moving in with my boyfriend!” or “Hey! I’m going to that show you told you about.”) The problem is, there’s one guy at work who capitalizes on these moments to buddy up to me. If I’m having a conversation with someone and he happens to walk by, he’ll always walk over and interject – often asking personal questions and lingering after the original conversation wrapped up. I try to end forced talks with work excuses, or return things to work related topics, but he is NOT picking up that his aggressive familiarity is unwelcome. I try to look busy when he walks by now, but he’s taken to practically shouting hello so I am forced to respond to him, and then he always follows up with questions about what I’m doing that weekend or other personal things.

    1. Thlayli*

      “What are you doing this weekend” is the standard small talk coworker question. It’s not a personal question at all. If you don’t want to share just say “oh not much. You?” And leave it at that.

    2. qwerty*

      Ick. I’ve been in that position and it’s uncomfortable. Some people will tell you he’s just being nice and you should get over it, but the gender dynamic, possibly the power dynamic (I think there is one inherent in most front desk positions, in my experience), and the ambiguously-deliberate obliviousness make it all pretty gross.

      I would gradually become less accommodating until the point of ending the conversation as soon as he comes over. Do this politely and firmly; its not a conversation, it’s you saying you need to get back to work and turning around and ignoring him until he leaves. This is annoying because it requires abruptly cutting off conversations with people you do like, but I think they’d understand.

      Whether or not he respects your requests is a different story, but if he doesn’t, you now have grounds to say he’s disrupting your work.

      Creating boundaries with a coworker that’s making you uncomfortable *shouldn’t* impact being the “nice front desk girl” with everyone else. If it does, that may be a fundamental flaw in your company culture.

  193. Grad Now Lawyer Later*

    I just had a job interview a few hours ago — it was my first real phone interview! (I’m about to graduate from college in May.) I did everything I learned from this blog––lots of prep, knew what points/experiences I wanted to bring up, found a quiet place, asked good questions, etc. And I felt that my answers were pretty good, considering. Still, I was really thrown off because I couldn’t quite gauge my interviewer’s reaction over the phone. She would mostly say “yes, okay” after my answers and then move on to her next prepared question. Afterwards, my paranoid mind worries that maybe she was thinking, “Wow, these answers are terrible.” Is this normal with phone interviews? Does this feeling of being unable to gauge a phone interviewer’s reaction occur to everybody?

    1. BRR*

      I’ve had phone interviews like that. Especially if it’s with an hr person who sometimes is just passing the information along. They need to record everything and it’s more of a pass/fail thing than deciding who the top candidate is.

      1. designbot*

        +1 to this. This is typical of phone screenings, when the person on the other end isn’t actually the person you’ll be working with or the one ultimately making the decision. Normally there’s more back and forth when the person on the other end has more personal investment in the role.

    2. Stranger than fiction*

      They are like that sometimes if you weren’t speaking to the hiring manager. Was it just another manager or their recruiter that does the first phone assessment before passing you onto the hm?

      1. Grad Now Lawyer Later*

        I think it was actually the hiring manager–when she did talk for an extended time, she seemed really enthusiastic and friendly! I’m thinking, based on what everyone has said here, that it might have just seemed less enthusiastic as she had a bunch of questions to get through.

    3. Woodswoman*

      It’s common to not be able to read someone’s responses over the phone. You don’t have the body language cues. For a job that I later ended up getting, my interviewer was pretty flat even in the subsequent in-person interview, it was just her professional face she put on. When I actually worked with her, she was warm and responsive. I wouldn’t read too much into a phone screening. It sounds like you feel good about the interview–good luck!

      1. Grad Now Lawyer Later*

        Oh, thank you! That makes me feel much better. Hope my story works out the way yours did!

    4. nep*

      In my experience, in phone interviews it is really tough to gauge how someone is receiving or reacting to your answers. No body language or facial expressions — makes a huge difference.
      In a recent phone interview, I’m pretty sure I heard the interviewer do that sort of ‘Uh-huh. Yeah! Uh-huh’ to get me to stop rambling, as I did meander a couple times. (Overall I pretty much bombed it. Lessons learned.)

  195. Is this a red flag?*

    Hello! I am currently job seeking while employed and found a job that truly interested me. It said it had an immediate need for a fill but I wasn’t sure if I’d get it anyways, and applied. I heard back this past Wednesday via phone call that they would like to interview… that same day, face to face at their corporate office an hour away. I said, No, I’m currently employed and have work commitments. “How about tomorrow?” Still couldn’t, because my Thursday and Friday were full of projects for work, and I don’t think I should drop them for a *possible* job. So I said the earliest I could do was this Monday.

    I heard nothing back so I assumed they weren’t interested any more and felt a bit of relief, as I wasn’t able to interview on such short notice. Well, this afternoon, around 5pm, I received a text message (??) from the lead person saying “Great to know you can interview Monday! Did HR confirm the time? C U there.” This was really surprising since I had heard nothing back from HR confirming and I have no clue what time or where it is at. I’ve texted back for details but now I’m feeling weird about the whole thing. I’m new to the work world so maybe this is normal?

    -Should I go through with the interview even though this feels sort of disorganized? My gut says maybe not but it would be great to interview and learn more about the whole job.
    -Is it weird that they texted me about this rather than email? it just feels real informal. If they didn’t give me their name I would’ve thought it was a prank.
    -Should I ask them about this in the interview? Like a nice way to say “Is this just a odd occurrence (I get stuff happens) or does this speak to greater disorganization/last minute demands in the company?” I doubt I could say that, but I really want to make sure it’s my gut being silly and not a true pattern.

    1. BRR*

      Overall I’d say it depends on how much you need this job. I’d be turned off but if I was really interested in the job and could easily take the day off I’d hear them out. Some people text, I don’t like it for job hunting but its not the hill I’m going to die on.

      1. Is this a red flag?*

        Ok, thanks! I’m not desperate to find a job, but I am very interested in moving towards this direction in my field. I am about a year after graduation in the work world and I feel like interviewing would be good practice for me. Then again, I am also turned off by it. I’m torn. Perhaps I will go with the hopes to learn more about it, not have too high expectations…

    2. designbot*

      This would feel super weird to me, and for myself, personally, I would not be interested in pursuing this opening. However, I do always say that it’s about finding the crazy that fits with your crazy—if last minute shenanigans are more within your personal tolerance zone, that may not be a dealbreaker for you. It stresses me out bigtime.
      That said, you can absolutely ask, “is the sort of last-minute notice I got about this interview typical for the way things operate around here?”

      1. Is this a red flag?*

        Ok I’m glad I’m not alone with finding this weird! I don’t think I could tolerate last minute shenanigans either (though I want to be flexible of course.) But I am so curious about the job duties and benefits and day to day work that I may just interview. I think that’s a great way to phrase it and I appreciate it! I’m going to ask it at the interview. Thanks!

  196. periwinkle*

    So I get contacted frequently by students and recent alumni of the masters program from which I graduated. I’m always happy to talk with them about my current role and what I use/don’t use from the curriculum. Earlier this week I was contacted by someone with a university address who wanted to chat about the exciting things I’m working on. Yeah, fine, I can’t meet at your suggested time but here’s one that works.

    And then I mentally backspace a few hours later. That sounded like a sales pitch… off to LinkedIn where I discover this person was a student at that university but nowhere near the same program, had worked for the university in “development” (aka bugging alumni to donate), and was now working in a buzzword-laden role at a buzzword-laden small consulting firm. Ah, so that’s why he wanted to hear all about the exciting things my org is doing.

    Yeah, no. Meeting cancelled. But a nice try, dude, it would have worked if years of reading AAM comments hadn’t made something go ‘poing’ in my brain.

  197. atexit8*

    Just wanted to vent.
    I had had an telephone interview with the hiring manager and one of his reports.
    Then I had an on-site panel interview with the hiring manager and three of his reports.

    Last Friday I received a generic rejection email through the hiring company’s ADP portal.

    One of my big mistakes was spending too much time with HR discussing how doctors’ appointments would work when there is no PTO during the first 90 days.
    Others have told me this makes me look like an absenteeism risk.

    Anyway, feeling majorly bummed especially since I know I gave the potential employer another reason to reject me in addition to my age. It is horrible out there for those 50+.

    1. Forking Great Username*

      Yeah, unfortunately it seems that the best thing to do is not bring up the PTO or medical questions until you’re offered the job. I’m sorry to hear this! Good luck with the job search.

    2. Consulting Gal*

      In the future I recommend waiting til the offer stage to discuss time off/Dr. Accomendations. Good luck on your hunt!

  198. Curious*

    Is there a difference between job referral and job recommendation? Or so people still use them interchangeably? Will it hurt you if you mention a person’s name for an open position/asking if the person be given a chance to interview and turned out that it was’t a good fit?

    1. Adele*

      While there is a difference between a referral and a recommendation, there is enough overlap that you should be careful about who your refer. You may want to “refer” but the person hiring might hear it as “recommend.” If you have any doubts about a person’s suitability for a job, you may want to pass on the referral. Would you want that person in YOUR workplace? Would she be a top pick if you had a suitable job opening? I was burned by “a referral” many years ago and have been cautious every since.

      “Asking if the person be given a chance to interview” is pretty strong and should be avoided if you don’t have full confidence in that person. There are milder way to get a person’s name out there: “My old college friend Y is looking for a job in your industry. I suggested she send in her application for the job in the llama insemination department if it seems like a good fit for her skills.” Gets the person’s name out there but you aren’t vouching for her or putting pressure on the person doing the hiring. For an entry level job, “My friend’s son is looking for a summer job so I suggested he put in an application. I don’t know him well but he seems like a nice kid.”

  199. greatestheights*

    In March, I got some fabulous news: I’ve been accepted into grad school. After six years in the workforce, unsure of what I really wanted to do professionally (but certain I didn’t want it to be admin work anymore), I figured out what I want to do next. I also realized that in order to do that, I’d need to go back to school.

    I’m excited, but very nervous about how to handle giving notice at my job. I started working here seven months ago and really like both of my bosses and the work environment, even if I’m not crazy about the work itself. It’s a good job, and I’m grateful for it. I feel guilty for leaving so soon — I had no idea when I took the job that I’d be applying to school soon after. The school is out of state, so continuing on part-time isn’t an option. A lot of details need to be finalized, but at this point, I know I’ll need to be moved and at school by mid-August.

    How much notice should I give them? It’s a small department and my role is essential to keeping things running. I was thinking at least a month to give them time to find a replacement and have me help with training, but should I just talk to my bosses now? How do I approach this conversation? I’ve had to quit jobs before, but I’ve never been in quite this situation, and I want to make sure I handle it right.

    1. Adele*

      Congratuations! If you assume you will be able to work out your notice period, I think it is best to give several weeks notice–two months doesn’t seem extreme to me in this case. When I left a job in which I held a role that couldn’t (well, shouldn’t) be vacant and that took a fair amount of training and was at an institution that was notoriously slow in moving people through the hiring pipeline, I gave three months notice. I posted the job, reviewed the resumes, and interviewed the candidates. My boss interviewed the top three and made the final decision. I interfaced with HR to get the person on board and had about three weeks with her before I left the country.

      I was nervous about telling my boss but I steeled myself to just go in and tell him. I think I started the conversation with, “I have some news. I’m moving to China at the beginning of April.” I then told him what he could expect from me before (and briefly after) I left. It was enough time to finish projects, to get ducks in a row for things farther out, and to have everything documented. I had actually known I was leaving about two months earlier so had started doing all this before I gave notice. He was a bit shocked when I told him I was leaving but was happy to know he wouldn’t be left in the lurch.

  200. Quaggaquagga*

    Last week, work went from Stressful But Fine to Definitely Not Ok. I’m actively job searching. Oh, and my review is next week. Please remind me why it would be a bad idea to be excessively honest during this review? Or should I be? Management knows we’re struggling and is probably terrified that people are going to quit. It’s been a week, people.

  201. spudgoddess*

    Been playing never-ending “Hurry up and wait” with a recruiter. They rushed me into doing the first interview, which I passed with flying colors. Now we’re in a holding pattern while we wait for the second manager, who is conducting the second and third phone interviews (it’s for a remote position). This normally wouldn’t be an issue, except that the reason for the “OMG WE NEED TO INTERVIEW YOU NOW!” initially (we started this process just on Monday) is that the position is supposed to start this upcoming Monday.

    It’s just frustrating, because Manager One has been saying “He’ll call you soon” “We just got off the phone, he’ll be contacting you soon” and so on for the last two days.

    At this point, I see a few possible outcomes. Manager Two will never manage to get all his poop in one bag, and they’ll move forward with candidates they’ve already completed interviewing for. Same situation, except that they end up holding up everyone who was hired until we all get disgusted and move on. Or finally, the positions go into an eternal holding patter/there’s a hiring freeze no one knew about/hasn’t told us about yet.

    It’s a customer support position, 100 percent email based, and work from home. It’d be perfect for my needs. Any advice or even just general support is welcome!

    1. From The My Chemical Romance Generation*

      I would likely try (key word being “try”) to move on with my job search: hope for the best and make contingency plans for the worse. Waiting at this point in the process is really tough, and I hope for the best for you!

    2. Alianora*

      That’s a frustrating situation. I think your course of action here is the same regardless of what’s going on with them, though — focus on applying for other jobs. If they do get back to you, great, you have more options. If not, you didn’t put your search on hold for no reason.

      1. spudgoddess*

        Well, they were supposed to call me at 7pm. It’s 7:40.

        I hate my life, and I hate this town.

  202. nep*

    Can’t recall (and didn’t find when searching) the AAM name of the person who was seeking work opportunities in Kenya. Are you out there? Have you found any interesting prospects? Or perhaps there’s been an update and I missed it.

  203. Wombats for All*

    Does anyone have any tips for surviving in a super stressful and semi toxic environment?
    TL;DR Management has changed. They are now doing things that strike me as sketchy. I used to be a department of 3 but the new management likes to forget this. My department’s/mine workload has tripled as the business has rapidly grown in the last year and I’ve been informed they did’t think I needed help so they have not budgeted for a new hire.
    I’m tired, like new parent tired. All I do after work and on weekends is sleep A LOT! I’ve fallen asleep on the train and freaked out a coworker who found me snoring in the bathroom. Try living that one down. :P
    I’m trying to find a new job but it’s going slower than I want. How do I get through this?

    1. atexit8*

      8 hours and leave?
      Are you doing overtime to make up the shortage in staff?
      If so, stop it!

    2. From The My Chemical Romance Generation*

      Captain Awkward has a letter from 2013 (#450) that got me through survival mode for a while, definitely check it out.

    4. Jessen*

      I’ve had some luck with just telling myself to detach. Remind yourself – YOU are not responsible for the company. You did not make the choice to not hire anyone. You need to pace yourself so you don’t burn out, and if work doesn’t get done, well, that’s the responsibility of the people who aren’t staffing to get that work done.

      Some of the old columns here have good advice on how to ask about prioritization, when management wants you to do A, B, C, D, E and you only have room for 3 things.

      1. atexit8*

        In addition all of this above and beyond will not be remembered when it comes to lay you off.

        That’s how things work in the corporate world.

        .

  204. Needadvice*

    I’ve been applying for several jobs recently. Two weeks ago I interviewed for my most desired position at a federal agency call it company A. The interview went well and they said they would get back to me soon. A few days later I interviewed for another job with company B. They wanted to fill the position quickly and gave me a conditional offer. I filled out the background check info and went and took the drug test and waited to hear back from company B. This was Friday 4/13. Wednesday 4/18 I received a conditional offer from company A my most desired employer. I filled out the background check and I’m scheduled to take a drug test Monday 4/23. Today Friday 4/20 I heard back from company B and they said the checks cleared and they would like me to start Monday 4/23. Since I haven’t heard back from company A yet and probably won’t for a few weeks since they run a deeper background check should I still start at company B in case company A’s conditional offer falls through? Company A said I will be able to give 2 week notice to my current employer and I have a feeling it could take a month or longer to get back to me. Should I ask company B for more time? Or should I turn down company B and wait to hear back from company A which is where I really want to work? Any advice is appreciated. I’m kind of lost at what to do. I think I should start at company B in case the offer with company A falls through. I’m currently working as a contract employee so giving notice isn’t an issue but I don’t enjoy my current job and would earn more working for either company A or B. I could just keep my current job and wait to hear back from company A but that’s not appealing to me and I would be back at square one if I don’t get the job at company A since I stopped applying for other jobs.

    1. BRR*

      This question gets asked a lot and the answer always stinks. You really shouldn’t start at company b and then leave shortly for company a. You could try asking company b for more time but it doesn’t sound like they’ll give it to you.

    2. atexit8*

      I am at a different place financially in my career, so I would wait for Company A.

      However, you may not have the luxury, so in that case take the job at Company B.

  205. Jessen*

    Can anyone provide advice on water cooler topic switching? I have some very personal stuff that would come up in places people would generally expect to be safe small talk conversations. But I’ve found that trying to change subjects seems to be more…kind of like waving a big red flag that I’m Hiding Something Interesting. Or at least gets me subjected to some very unwanted moralizing pleasantries. Basically one way or another it doesn’t succeed in actually changing the subject, and family issues seem to be the sort of problem that everyone wants to fix, which I want to avoid.

    1. From The My Chemical Romance Generation*

      Is it possible to wave a shiny conversation topic in front of them instead? I’m not good at coming up with non-specific scripts, but I can give it a shot. Hopefully someone else can chime in as well!

      I’m allergic to the smell of Peppermint Tea they use to demo the teapots, but I know people are jerks about allergies so I avoid the topic for my own safety. If the water cooler turned to gossiping about the fact that there was a Peppermint Tea spill on one of our sales floors, it might turn into a nightmare scenario for me. There are a couple of ways that I might try to head this off. I tend to go with “OBVIOUS Subject Change,” “Extra Super Sincere,” “Utter And Unmistakable Silence” (my new favorite), and “Distraction.” I’m not going to participate in any dogpiling on Sansa, obviously, but keep in mind your own wellbeing as well. (Age and gender probably play into the effectiveness of these conversations.)

      Coworker A: And then Sansa didn’t even stay to help clean up! She just ran out of the room.
      Me (thinking that Sansa probably left the room to avoid being sick like I would): Hm.
      Coworker B: That’s really flakey.
      Coworker A: She asked me not to use scented peppermint products at my own desk, can you believe it?
      Me: Have I told you about my cat?

      Coworker A: …she just ran out of the room!
      Me: I hope she’s OK! She was probably just going for the first aid kit. Did the teapot break? I need to check into that if it did.

      Coworker B: …really flakey.
      Me: Eh, you know stuff like that happens.
      Coworker A: But she asked me not to use scented peppermint at my desk!
      Me: …. (this is a polite but bemused facial expression)
      Me: ….
      Coworker A: *changes the subject*

      1. Jessen*

        So I’ll explain a bit more:

        The big thing is I want to not talk about family of origin, because it’s a big mess right now and family issues seem to be the kind of thing that everyone has “helpful advice” on that I really don’t want to listen to. I’m also fairly young (and look younger) and female. Usually I’ve found it’s older women I have the most difficulty with.

        You can assume generally that people I’m talking to are trying to make small talk. They don’t mean any harm, but they don’t necessarily have the presence of mind to think that if someone’s changing the topic there’s probably a reason, or that the fact that their coworker is 20 years younger doesn’t mean they get a free motherly advice pass. On the other hand, they aren’t terribly interested in my family per se so much as trying to be sociable. So subject changes with as little fuss as possible are best.

        And I have had my lifetime fill at 30 of but family and being the reasonable one and all that and I so do NOT care if I’m being nice anymore.

  206. first-time facilitator*

    So I just started a position with a consulting firm that does facilitation. It’s an all hands on deck kind of place, and there’s not so much formal training, especially since I’m more of an operations grunt right now. Any facilitators out there want to point me towards resources to study up and learn the trade? A couple of google searches gave me more training courses than I could shake a stick at, but no idea which ones are worth anything.

  207. Can you ever beat an internal candidate?*

    Is it ever possible to beat an internal candidate? I’m feeling demoralized this week because I’d been contacted for a position by an employer who seemed really interested, but I just found out there’s an internal candidate. Do I even stand a chance at this point?

    1. Forking Great Username*

      I definitely wouldn’t assume you don’t stand a chance against an internal candidate! Yes, being an internal candidate can have its advantages, but it also has disadvantages. For example, I saw situations at my last job where they were required to at least interview internal candidates who applied. However, sometimes the hiring manager would already know that they didn’t want to promote the internal candidate – maybe they thought they had a bad attitude, or that they were hoping to find someone with stronger skills in X, or some other issue. My point is basically that just because there is an internal candidate interviewing doesn’t mean they are who the company wants for this job. Give the interview your all and don’t doubt or stress about the things beyond your control.

    2. Drama Llama*

      Yes, of course! The employer obviously knows the internal candidate much better than they know you, and that works as both a positive and a negative. They know the IC’s strengths and weaknesses pretty thoroughly. If the employer is doing their job right, they’re focused on hiring the right person for the job – and not just someone they’re most familiar with.

      1. Can you ever beat an internal candidate?*

        Okay, thanks for the encouraging words. I think I’m just discouraged because my last job search in this field about a year and half ago, ended with about 100000 rejections thanks to internal candidates (I’m in a sub-area of higher ed administration, if that provides some context). I’ve strengthened my skills and network in the area considerably since then so I’m hoping this one goes better.

    3. only acting normal*

      I’ve worked in a couple of places where it impossible to get promoted and *all* vacant positions ended up filled from externally. E.g. One woman failed to get a promotion, quit, and came back 6 weeks later… into the still vacant higher post. But you might not *want* to work somewhere like that! ;)

      As others have said, in a functional workplace it shouldn’t be too biased in either direction.

  208. From The My Chemical Romance Generation*

    I’m considering hiring a high school summer intern for July & August. The project I have in mind is technically technology based, but writing skills are more important. I’m a co-founder, and hiring someone pre-college would fit well with our mission statement, but we only have a few employees (along with several contractors) AND we work remotely. We do have enough budget to pay a fair wage to an ambitious student and rent two desks (for me and the intern) at a local coworking space for the summer.

    Wondering if there are any hiring managers still active tonight? Is there anything I should know about hiring teenagers? My employees are fairly young (contractors are more diverse age-wise), but I’m used to working with people with a lot more experience.

    1. Thlayli*

      Check out the law in your area on hiring children. Where I live there are lots of specific rules for hiring people under 18.

  209. Drama Llama*

    How do you deal with staff who call in sick for silly stuff? One of our sales staff wanted to take today off to go play some sports game. We said no, because the roster was out and we’d already spoken to him a gazillion times about not requesting last minute changes to his shift hours unless it was an emergency. Surprise, surprise – he calls in sick. He said he was “coughing.”

    Most of our team are sensible and I wouldn’t question their sick leave. But occasionally we deal with people who won’t come into work because they have the sniffles or they’re feeling sneezy or whatever. What’s the best way of dealing with these situations?

  211. Almost Violet Miller*

    I’m going to get an intern, HR is going to start scheduling interviews soon. This is the first time I am interviewing someone I am going to work with/manage.
    What do you wish you’d known before your first interview as a hiring manager?

  212. amanda_cake*

    It’s been quite the week.

    I interviewed for two positions this week. I’ll finish my MLIS in May, so I’ve started the hunt for school librarian jobs. The school I interviewed with on Monday is waiting for my third reference to get back to them. They emailed her a few times and she finally told them she couldn’t get to their in depth reference form until the weekend. I tried to get a hold of them on Thursday, but had no luck–I was going to give them the contact information of a different third person to speed things up. I anticipate an offer from this on Monday. I interviewed for a position yesterday and was offered the job on the spot, but I feel in love with school #1 before I even got there and am waiting patiently.

    It’s been nerve wracking and I wish my reference would go ahead and do it. She’s literally the busiest woman I know, but can speak to my strengths very well (I’ve known her for around 13 years, first as her student, then as a Key Club leader, and she served as my mentor teacher when I taught high school English).

  213. Jen*

    I am trying to find a software to help me with a new role I am in but I have no idea where to event start. It is for event rentals, think of getting everything I need together before the wedding, making sure I have the graphics I need, getting equipment across the country and knowing where that equipment is going next.

    I would love for the equipment piece to be a drag and drop type scheduler. We regularly get last minute events or changes that require me to re-figure the plan. I would also love to be able to have all the equipment needed if the event has X to pre-populate. So if I add on this feature to the event, these other 4 things pop in to find out where they are coming from. Possibly notes field, shipping dates, etc.

    The management of the event is the 2nd piece. So knowing what date it is going to happen on, who is going to be working it, etc

    Any ideas on where to start?

  214. Title1 Tutor*

    I have a call with my supervisor next week regarding her not signing my time sheets on time, which has resulted in two half-checks and one entirely missed. I did receive a “make-up” check but it was taxed at a much higher rate, and combined with my husband’s check went to pay past-due bills and other expenses that had been put off. I work in a grant-funded position and am limited to 28 hrs/week. The pay is good enough that were I being paid on time there wouldn’t be a problem. (My husband is a retail manager so we’re not exactly loaded but we get by.) Her excuse is that she’s busy and not always in the office. I have timesheets that are from mid-March which payroll has still not received. The law in my state is that hourly employees are required to be paid twice a month in full. I am not the only one this has happened to, but it sounds like I’m the only one to complain, which I did to her boss. I didn’t go to her because she already stated- months ago- that she would get to our time-sheets when she could, after I complained about working six weeks without getting paid. I love the job and it has pointed me to a new career path, so I want to work the rest of the five weeks in the year. Another excuse I’ve been handed is that this isn’t supposed to be a primary source of income. Any thoughts or support would be welcome. Already making plans for next year and getting certified in this area.

    1. Forking Great Username*

      From your username, you’re working in a school, right? This is absolutely not normal or okay, and I’m glad that you reported it. Her boss needs to be aware that you aren’t getting paid, and possibly needs to keep a closer eye on those grant funds in general, because those being used as they’re supposed to be and the paperwork being all kept up to date is a big freaking deal. And her comment about how it shouldn’t be the primary source of income is really just not appropriate or any of her business – you worked, you must be paid for that time.

    2. Observer*

      It doesn’t make a difference whether this is your primary source of income – what she’s doing is illegal and payroll should have told her so.

      The fact that it’s grant funds makes it worse, because many funders would have a freak attack if they ever audited your place and found regular delays in payment of payroll. They would likely react as though they found evidence of fraud. Because it makes NO SENSE for you to be getting paycheck in May for work done in March. Occasionally? OK, mistakes happen and you need to correct them. Regularly? Who does that?

    3. A Nickname for AAM*

      Yes, you need to report it. My work has sloppy supervisors and a decent HR/payroll department, so whenever there is a mistake reported, all of the payroll people absolutely catch fire trying to get the person their pay on time.

      Next time it is late, don’t ask your boss, ask payroll. Say, “I checked my bank account and my pay didn’t arrive at (normal direct deposit time), were there any delays in the system?” and then let them go digging around to figure out why you didn’t get paid.

      1. Q*

        As some one who works in payroll, if one of my people’s time card is missing, I’m going to contact their supervisor and do everything I can to get it in time. Its much more difficult to get someone paid after the deadline, and its more work for me too. Your supervisor is probably being contact by payroll too thus making extra work for other people instead of just doing her job in the first place.

    1. Molly*

      Personally I am not thrilled about it. Did the poster really want that whole group to know the uncle is in hospital? If the manager is above the coordinator the two of them should have had a quiet talk about expectations. And afterwards maybe the manager should have had a quiet talk with the poster about expectations, as well.

  216. WillowSunstar*

    I’ve been frustrated at work this week. I was talked down to the other day by a coworker, Sansa, while working on a big project I had received the previous week, and could not do that Friday because the person who was training me in on it was out. They have done a bit of a re-org here. I still have the same boss, but my duties will be different. When we discussed the transition last week with job duty X to the person who would be taking it over, I was told I would be doing a limited number of certain things while learning job duty Y, especially since the person training me is going on vacation this coming week for several days. This coworker is both 20 years or so younger than me and hasn’t been at the company that long, yet felt it necessary to lecture me about not dropping big project for her project that had a deadline after the big urgent project. This is after I was told I wasn’t going to have to work on that stuff anymore and that Arya would be taking on project X.

    I said politely sorry, I am swamped, Arya needs to help with project X since she is taking it over. Sansa then told me she had proceed to ask a number of people who were not my boss, and they all stated to her that I was supposed to be full-fledged on project X, which was completely different from what I had been told in the transition meeting the previous week. I told Sansa that these things completely contradicted what my boss, Ned, had told me, and that the project I was working on actually had a deadline before her project, so I would have to finish it before I could do anything else, especially since the person who was training me in on the job duties Y told me it needed to be done that day.

    In my one-on-one with Ned Friday, I mentioned what had happened and said this was not what we discussed in the transition meeting. I then got told “but we said you had to help.” I said but I also had got dumped on with a large, urgent project that had a deadline before the other project.

    Am I some kind of horrible person to want to sit and concentrate on a project that requires a lot of detail without switching off tasks, especially when that project starts before another project? Especially when things were communicated to me that Arya was supposed to be working on Project X and my involvement was actually supposed to be minimal? I am now basically expected to do not one, but two jobs next week when the person I am covering for is gone. My boss approved overtime but only for yesterday. So I think it is rather unfair that literally everyone else on the team is allowed to ask for help, and I am apparently not, especially when on Fridays I have a report to do that takes several hours and must get out that day. Especially when I have been at the company for way more years than both Arya and Sansa. It is not as if I am a brand new hire off the street, I transferred from another area.

    I do not know what I am going to do next week. The boss is also going to be out, and I know I am going to get a rather urgent project that will trump everything else. Now I was told it had a certain amount of work, but as we all know, stuff happens and the work very well could increase by the time I get it.

    I think that management does not know how to divvy up work. Part of the reason for the reorg was that the work was not evenly divided before, but it was not evenly divided up and that was the reason the dept. was structured the way it was when I was hired on. It also seems to me like the current team I am on has a “kick-me” sign for other teams, which is not good. But the fact that I am apparently not allowed to simply say “I am sorry, but I am too busy and this will have to wait,” seems unreasonable. Everyone else in any other job is allowed to say that at times. I have been allowed to say that at every other job before this one, even in the same company. Yet it feels like everyone else but me is allowed to say that.

  217. Fresh Faced*

    Thank you to those that helped me decide between a in person interview and a Skype one a few weeks back. I ended up emailing the company to be met with silence, then a follow up to be met with more silence. The dates for the in person interviews have passed and still nothing so it seems like I dodged a bullet there by not sinking significant time/money into meeting them.

    On a better note I have two potential freelance gigs coming up so fingers crossed for those!

  218. Gaston*

    Is buying a renovation project home crazy when you’re in the market for something already done? I was outbid on a coastal property in an area where stuff doesn’t come up for sale all that often and my budget (compared to the wealthy buyers of holiday homes there) is the lower end of the local market.

    A small property has come up for sale at a good price, some sea views and a good location for the local town. The downside is it’s a total refurb project – it’s not derelict but it’s been uninhabited for a few years and before that hadn’t seen any work done in a long time. It’s not a ‘knock down that wall and paint the kitchen’ job, it’s a full scale renovation with electrics, water, heating, damp issues etc etc.

    I know nothing about renovating anything and I don’t want to end up a re-run of the Money Pit. I have the time and money to do it but wouldn’t know where to start. Would buying it be crazy?

  219. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

    Office drama!
    The company Instagram was hijacked, defaced and turned into a pro ISIS blog. The worst thing is that all its followers (employees included, it’s mandatory to follow the company social media) saw what was happening and the person in charge didn’t ask for help until she was locked out and had a meltdown at her desk. I thought the entire office learnt from the various phishing attempts that happened last year, but no…

  220. Clumsy But Well-Meaning*

    I am worried I did the wrong thing. Someone I know—not very well, but we have hung out socially in the same group—applied for a job at my company, was shortlisted, but didn’t get it because more experienced people also applied. I was on the interview panel. After he was officially notified that he hadn’t got the job, I sent a personal note that I thought was encouraging and friendly—saying how well he had done at interview and expressing my personal best wishes—and now I think maybe I overstepped the mark. (He hasn’t replied.) Was this insensitive of me and do I apologise? (If so, how?)

    1. Alianora*

      I don’t see anything wrong with that. I guess it’s possible it could have sounded condescending, but you don’t seem condescending from this comment. I’ve really appreciated it in the past when interviewers reached out the way you did.

      1. WillowSunstar*

        Same here. I once had someone reach out to me, after I applied to a job that would have been a promotion, stating that I did really well in the interview, but I didn’t have specific experience X that they were looking for. However, they thought I would do great at a different kind of job that would also be a promotion, and strongly encouraged me to apply to that kind of job.

        I got the lateral transfer instead, however, which was ok because it got me away from the toxic people and a raise.

  221. Cute Li'l UFO*

    I spent four hours interviewing with four different people at a company I REALLY REALLY want to work at yesterday. It’s very close to home (as in, I could walk/bike to work in a very small suburban bedroom community), my mom worked there as an on-call receptionist and loved it and would have stayed had she not been hired in her current agency. I’ve heard in both the interviews and from employees that they have quite a few local hires.

    The interviews were very behavioral, with lots of walking through how I would start projects, how I handle stress, tell me about a time when… I feel like I crushed it. They all asked some questions where I really did have to give deep thought, especially in regards to handling frustration and conflict at work. I used the example of finding out that work that had been done incorrectly before starting at one company started getting misattributed to me and realizing that at that point it was a situation where I ended up having to get my art director involved. I talked about the importance of professionalism and how my organization extends from careful and clear communication to organizing thousands of images in another company’s stock library. Also important to me I had a chance to discuss my job history. One interviewer was concerned about some of the short contracts, asking about circumstances on why I left. Great time to explain why and also to talk about managing time as a freelancer as well.

    I was able to swing all four of these in one day–On Thursday I received a message inquiring if I would be available Friday but would be fine if I wasn’t as it was rather short notice. One more is scheduled a couple weeks ahead via phone as my interviewer is in France.

    I feel pretty good. They’re a bit of a different breed than most places I’ve worked or interviewed (very well-established biotech) and I’m hoping for a really good outcome.

  222. Luna123*

    Aaaah, I know this is late but that company I had the second interview for finally asked me why I left my last job. Luckily it was an email, so I had time to think of what I wanted to say and edit and tweak so hopefully it’s a good summary. I hope I provided the right amount of detail–not too much and not too little. But what’s done is done & either I’ll get the job or I won’t.

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