open thread – April 6-7, 2018

by Alison Green on April 6, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Coqui*

    Any tips on how I can break into a flexible, work-from-home job?

    I have a background in IT with a more recent concentration in support. On paper my job is supposed to focus on providing IT support to local government employees, deploying computer equipment, and keeping our inventory organized. In reality I am a supervisor to 3 direct reports, assist in supporting the internal equipment (networks, servers, etc.), and responsible for spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in departmental budget funds ranging from hardware to software to licensing agreements. The stress is killing me and since my position is budgeted I’m not being properly compensated for the work I’m doing. A lot of my tasks are run-off from my manager not having his own time to complete the work and the culture/environment is incredibly toxic. Morale is so low and I have a medical condition that is exacerbated by stress so I am blowing through my sick and vacation days.

    I signed up on the Flex Jobs website and found that many of the jobs are catered towards call center support (probably worse stress than I have now) or programming. I also have a background in programming but I’m not overly confident in my skills since I’ve been in support for several years. Once you stop using the skills you start to lose them.

    If you have a work-from-home job (especially IT) how did you find it? Do you have any tips for job hunting? I’m okay switching fields too, but I’m unsure that I will find an entry-level job that makes what I am currently making ($49,000).

    1. Marcy Marketer*

      Hi Coqui! I have a work from home job in digital marketing, so not IT. Like you, I wanted to WFH full time so looked at flexjobs. However, rather than getting a subscription I looked at their lists of top WFH companies and saved each company’s job website to my favorites. I checked for new jobs at each website once a week. I also found that each company used different WFH language (telecommunicate, etc.) and I used those terms when searching on Indeed.

      After about three months and several job applications, I received an offer with a 30% salary increase. With your resume I would not look for entry level. Many telecommute jobs are posted that way because they’re highly specialized and the company can’t find the best talent in their area. Instead, look for jobs that meet your qualifications, and don’t be afraid to apply to lots of positions. Good luck!

      1. AK*

        Not in IT, but I work from home for a company that regularly employs people to telecommute. I can’t speak to salary or field, but I checked our job boards and it looks like we stick with “Telecommute”, “Remote Work”, and “In Person not Required” (so the position can be remote or in one of our offices) in most to describe the ability to work from home, so that might be a good place to start on job boards?

        Good luck with the hunt!

      2. Wannabe Remote*

        Marcy, I’m looking for a WFH job in digital marketing. Do you have any tips that you think would help me stand out? I have three years of experience as the volunteer head of marketing for a nonprofit, and a year doing social media for a very small B2B company (what I’ve done for the past year and a half is mostly unrelated to marketing) but I’m wondering if there’s some type of experience I should be emphasizing in my cover letters.

        1. Mrs. Picky Pincher*

          I WFH and I’m in digital marketing – been working remotely for a few years now.

          Most remote companies want to see you’ve had experience telecommuting in the past, so if you could somehow negotiate for remote work now, it would give you a leg up.

          You could also consider getting certified. Once I got my Google Adwords and Analytics certs, I was much more marketable. (And these are free certs to have, too).

          1. Wannabe Remote*

            That’s incredibly helpful, thank you! I’ll work on getting those certs, that’s fantastic advice and I appreciate it. My first job was remote, and my volunteer experience was also mostly remote, so I make sure to mention that in applications any time I can!

        2. Marcy Marketer*

          I don’t think I did anything differently, other than to tailor my resume and cover letter to the job and use concrete numbers to show my work performance, which is the advice Alison gives. In my situation, I have a general marketing background but couldn’t/didn’t get hired for general jobs. I got hired for a specialist job because they couldn’t find anyone in their area with that skill, and I think it helped that I tailored my resume to highlight my experience with that special skill.

    2. Ree*

      I’ve also been looking for a WFH job as well and found Jobspresso earlier this week – they have a great website and you can also post your resume there

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      I’ll be following this closely because I feel the same way. I’ve only been in my current position now (proposal manager) since December, and I’m already ready to go. There’s not enough work to keep me busy, and I’m bored as hell. I literally sit at work all day and stare at my computer screen because we obviously can’t go on non-work sites during the day, can’t play on our phones at our desk (my desk is down the hall from the president of the company’s office, so, optics), and I’m two seconds from just packing up my desk and going home for good. Seriously, I went from one workload extreme (a claims role where I had way too much work for any one person) to the other (barely any work). I’m becoming very resentful that I have to wake up in the morning and walk in the freezing cold to a job where I do nothing but sit. At least a work from home job would allow me to stay in the comfort of my own home when there’s little to do.

      1. Artemesia*

        If there is any hope down the road of this changing, could you not find something involving self improvement to do during your down time or is that impossible to pull off? E.g. learn accounting, learn a language, take a management course. Obviously reading a novel is a bad look, but busily working through spreadsheets might be possible and you could acquire some new skills as you think about whether you want to be looking for a new job.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I’m enrolled in one of Microsoft’s Professional Programs (Entry Level Software Development), but again, our Senior Director of Business Development told our boss to tell us proposal managers that we basically can’t do anything non-work related at our desks, and there are no spreadsheets or anything like that in my particular industry that I could work on. I almost wish I hadn’t left my last company because at least I had insurance exams and continuing ed classes I could take during rare down times. *sigh*

          I’m going to suggest a busywork project during my review next week, but also keep looking for new jobs in the meantime. I found some really interesting postings recently on Indeed, but I’m just concerned my lack of proposal experience is going to be a problem (I do want to stay in this job function – when I have work to do, I like it a lot).

      2. Bea W*

        Are you me? The boredom is slowly killing off my brain cells. I went from doing the jobs of 3 people to pretending to look busy by shuffling some spreadsheets and things on my screen.

    4. rubyrose*

      IT Business Analyst here, working from home.

      I literally lucked into this job. Was not actively looking, but contacted by a recruiter searching for my skill set. He gave me the five minute lowdown about the position, which did not perk my interest especially. As an afterthought, at the end, he says “Oh, yeah, the job is remote. You can live anywhere in the US as long as you are close to an airport (20% travel at peak project times). ” With this, I saw my ticket to move back to Colorado from another region with a job! You bet, I applied.

      From what you list as your talents, I think you want to look for jobs dealing with network and server support. Those types of positions can often be remote. They do exist.

      What I have found in looking specifically for remote positions is that if a site has search criteria for remote yes/no, it is often totally inaccurate. Like, it will say yes, but the description specifies non-remote. Or the opposite is true. Not good news, I know.

      I think I would concentrate on very large employers. The small to medium sized companies tend to want their people on site, or think they have to be on site. With your experience in supporting government, also look for large companies that have government contracts; your experience with government may be special enough that they would make a position remote for you.

      Good luck!

      1. LKW*

        I was going to suggest IT Business Analyst or IT Development. A lot of projects are done with global teams where you have a few meetings that are non-negotiable but the rest of the work can be done as needed during the day. There may be occasional travel for face to face meetings but often most can be conducted remotely.

        I’m a PM and haven’t been to the office in 4 months.

        1. Adlib*

          This is basically how my team is set up. I do use an office at a branch location, but my team is national/global so we don’t ever see each other but meet and collaborate regularly via Skype. In 4 years (5 total with this company), I’ve only met my boss once in person. I work from home whenever I want, but I also like having the flexibility to come in to the office when I want to be around people. I’m basically a Business Analyst at this point.

          I haven’t looked in a while, but I’d venture to say that most won’t advertise that they’re remote or mostly-remote positions just to weed out some people who may take advantage of that. I’ve interviewed with a company that was completely remote. I think OP’s skills lend themselves well to finding a remote position naturally since more and more companies are moving that way.

    5. Anon for Now*

      I seem to recall Apple was hiring a lot of remote IT support positions. Also, a lot of the big tech companies have jobs that are remote, but they may not advertise it as such. I work for a large global tech machine company (think copiers and printers) and a LOT of people are remote by design, and/or people have gone remote in recent years as the companies seek to pare down office leases. I’m not sure if the jobs are always advertised as such though.
      My own job CAN be remote if I want it to be, but I’ve elected to go in most days as I live by a large office. My immediate team is all remote!
      I think with IT you have a better chance of finding remote work than some ‘folks.

    6. Coqui*

      You all are awesome! Thank you so much for the tips. IT Business Analysis sounds very interesting and I’m curious to look more into it. I’m ready to get out of the support-side of things since it’s effectively IT “retail” in the sense that you provide a type of customer service to users who don’t understand what you do, but think that they do. I’ll keep an eye on this thread if you all decide to drop some more knowledge. :)

      1. rubyrose*

        Since that sounds interesting….

        Your programming background will be useful as a BA. You will be able to talk to developers more easily, since you will better understand what they need to know to do their work. Network/server knowledge is also good.

        Given medical concerns, one thing to keep in mind. For some of these jobs, there might be people in your team in another country on another continent (think India). That is roughly a 12 time difference and you may need to speak with them daily. I’ve been on phone calls at 10:00 pm and then at 6:00 am the next morning when meeting deadlines was especially critical. I don’t have medical concerns, but with age my body and mind don’t do as well with interrupted or inconsistent sleep patterns. So if this might be an issue, be sure you find out up front if there are any expectation in this area and what they are.

      2. Wheezyweasel*

        I have a similar background with a little more training experience thrown in, and in my last job search I concentrated on roles like associate project manager (with an IT focus, not construction, etc) software trainer, implementation consultant/specialist to make the transition out that ‘retail IT’ environment you mention. Several small companies were looking for system administrators for cloud-based systems that were completely remote, although those positions sometimes came with lower salaries and extra job duties thrown on top. As others have said, it’s cumbersome to search through job listings where a keyword search on ‘remote’ won’t give you exact matches, especially as the big players such as Indeed and LinkedIn don’t seem to have this as a filter criteria.

    7. Jen*

      I don’t know if this is really the question you are asking, but often, it’s about working for a company that is very flexible on WFH, building a good reputation, and having the kind of job that’s portable to home. Then you can start WFH after a few months or a year.
      For example, you won’t be doing in-office tech support from home (eg. “I need a loaner laptop because I forgot mine at home.”)

    8. Celestine*

      There’s a good amount of work-from-home jobs on the InfoSec side if you have any skills that would be applicable there.

    9. what's my name again?*

      Hello:

      While this site seems to frown on the field, I happen to be a resume writer, working from home on a very flexible schedule. I don’t make that $49,000 but I only work part time. I believe if I had to, I could make that salary.
      IT resumes are very much in demand and not many of us resume writers like to do them and even fewer can do them well.
      Google “Resume Writer certifications” to find ways to break into the field. (I highly recommend getting a certification. Resume writing companies generally prefer a candidate have at least one, but the Certified Professional Resume Writer (CPRW) credential is very easy to get.)

    10. Bend & Snap*

      I work with developers who all work remotely. if you can brush up on those skills (which are sought after), it would be an easy field in which to find remote work.

      1. Easily Amused*

        I hope I’m not hijacking here but I am an iOS Developer. I’ve worked remotely in the past but am struggling to find remote opportunities because they’re so competitive. I’d love learn about your company if you’re open to sharing more information (completely understand if you’re not comfortable divulging company info to random online people).

    11. Someone else*

      One thing that might help in your search is to research distributed companies; ie companies where basically everyone works from home. Approaching from the angle of “what companies have all/mostly remote workers” might get you different results than coming at it from the angle of just looking for jobs that are remote.

  2. That Cat Lady*

    I’m wondering if anyone has any good stories about themselves or their colleagues mangling/ misusing industry specific vocab to hilarious effect?

    My example from earlier this week, I asked my colleague in a group message to book a skip exchange and for some reason when she responded she chose a slightly odd abbreviation. Her response to the group message (including the owner of the company) was “[MyName], I confirm I have now booked your s.exchange”

    1. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      My boss sent out an email advising people I’d be working on the new service level agreeement between our organisation and another one. Except the new term is ‘performance delivery agreement’, and she wrote something like ‘Wizard and Rachel will be working closely on the PDA’.

      Cue a call from a higher-up’s assistant to clarify what exactly our team was up to.

        1. Say What, now?*

          I was just thinking the same thing! Why change it from very innocent SLA when PDA would be so weird? Unless you employee Loki, God of Mischief, and he was like “this will be good.”

    2. Manders*

      One from me: In my field it’s not unusual to talk about “hitting” a target audience or a subject you’re covering. I sometimes find myself shortening the name of the audience (so instead of “parents of newborns” I’ll just call the audience “babies”) and dropping the “audience” part, which means a whole lot of confused strangers have overheard me saying things like “I think we can hit babies much harder” and “We’ve hit seniors so hard lately.”

      2. AVP*

        oh I have some similar ones. We’re a film company so we talk a lot about shooting and what we’ve shot in the past. Cut to my team in an airport having a discussion like, “Well we already shot the CEO. Do you think we can shoot the president next? We shot all those kids last week so that’s taken care of.” We’ve gotten a few worried looks!

    3. Localflighteast*

      not quite industry vocab, but in prep for an office move we are having a “Pizza and purge” party to encourage us to clean out our offices. I’m not sure the vocab is quite what they were going for!!

    4. PB*

      I serve on a committee that’s commonly abbreviated BSC. It stands for something completely office appropriate, of course, but every time I see if, I internally chuckle at the internet meaning of BSC.

      1. Sal*

        What does BSC mean…? I googled to no avail (although urban dictionary is blocked on my computer)

        5. Sled dog mama*

          At my college it was the black student coalition, home of the BEST parties on campus.

      3. Dr Wizard, PhD*

        I’m afraid I can top that, because I attend local meetings of the EU National Institutes of Culture, which is very unfortunately abbreviated EUNIC.

        2. hermit crab*

          Hahaha! We work on a type of document called a Statement of Basis, which our client insists on abbreviating as SOB.

        3. Sparkly Librarian*

          A nearby congregation is named the Berkeley Fellowship of Unitarian Universalists (BFUU), despite technically being in a township/neighborhood not quite within the borders of Berkeley… because no one wanted to approve the First Unitarian Church of Kensington.

          Or so I hear. Urban legend?

          2. Troutwaxer*

            A nearby organization is the (Town Name Starting With ‘F’) Unified School District, commonly referred to as the “eff you SD.”

      4. Libervermis*

        I attend a conference that’s abbreviated ASECS, pronounced “a-sex”. Several people have asked why I’m talking about a sex conference.

      5. RJGM*

        A close family member of mine works for the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) which, on particularly frustrating days, they abbreviate to BS of America.

      6. Weirdo Catholic*

        A lot of people abbreviate Non Profit as NFP and in my catholic circles that means Natural Family Planning and I always get confused and have to reread what I’m reading to make sure I am reading the right acronym correctly.

    5. SoCalHR*

      I started my career in Workers Compensation so we use a lot of acronyms in documenting medical reports (Sx = surgery, Dx = Diagnosis, f/u = follow up, etc). Thinking some of these weren’t industry-specific, I carried them over into my next job. My small HR team of Millennials were confused as why I was using “F/U” and read it as “F#&$ You” or “F#&$ Up” and were pretty shocked.

      1. King Friday XIII*

        I use F/U all the time (and occasionally in theraputic ways) but I’m veeeeeeery careful to get that slash in there.

      2. RetailGal*

        I work in our receiving department, and boxes that contain comforters or quilts that can work on both full or queen-sized beds will often be labelled FUQU. My inner 10 year old boy comes out and giggles about it.

        1. Cube Ninja*

          A few months ago, my boss and I were discussing naming conventions for one of our functions, which requires follow up to ensure we’ve received acknowledgement of a particular item. This is of course managed in our system through a queue.

          He decided very quickly after sending it in instant messaging that AFUQ was probably not the best abbreviation for acknowledgement follow up queue.

      3. TGIF*

        We have a chart we fill out where there are two possible responses, abbreviated S and M. Sometime you select just one, however, sometimes it’s a combo. I very carefully fill those in as M/S, not the other way around.

      4. BenAdminGeek*

        Yes, I’ve gone on at length about STD on calls out and about, getting some very odd looks. Apparently “yeah, we need to transition everyone with STD” sounds creepy to the general populace.

        Also a throwback to a client that kept pronouncing “Waiver of Premium” acronym of WOP phonetically as “wop” until I asked that we call it W-O-P. I then had to explain to my client that I’d prefer not to use derogatory slurs, even if unintentional.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          There’s a flea market here (two of them–there used to be three) called STD. Apparently, they began in a building that used to be owned by Springfield Tool and Die, or so I heard, but they kept the sign. They had some scripted radio ads a few years ago where a guy was trying to guess what it stood for and my favorite was “Spanking Tommy’s dalmation.”

        2. Boop*

          Just today my boss was describing a meeting she had with an employee and said “I gave her an STD.” She meant a short term disability flyer, of course, but I still had to stop the conversation so we could both snicker.

        3. myswtghst*

          Current company refers to our bonus as “short term incentive” which they abbreviate to STI.

        4. hermit crab*

          I coordinate training workshops as part of my job, so I hear STD a lot for “save the date.” But my clients are mostly federal government and they loooooove their TLAs (three-letter acronyms).

      6. MsMaryMary*

        I once received an email with the subject “F/U from Department Leadership.” Fine, then, leadership. F/U too. In reality it was a response to some concerned aired at our last quarterly meeting, but they really should have skipped the acronym.

        1. RES ADMIN*

          Years ago my husband worked computer support for a largish company whose two part name was S— H—. They decided that the group currently called “Computer Support” should be modernized by calling it “Information Technology”. Had everything printed up, complete re-branding. THEN they announced it to the general staff. You see where this is going? And, yes, husband was the one who asked, mid-announcement, if anyone had thought about the acronym… After some confusion, someone finally realized what it spelled… They changed their minds about re-nameing the group.

    6. Overeducated*

      Not exactly misusing, but it took me about a year to not stifle a giggle when mentioning my PIV card.It stands for personal identity verification, this is the first place I have ever even HINTED at other possible interpretations.

      1. ket*

        My spouse works in a government institution with PIV cards. I finally explained to him (after 10 yrs of marriage) why I chortle every time I hear him say its name.

    7. strawberries and raspberries*

      Not exactly jargon, but a former coworker wrote a huge email to some of our community partners about an event happening at the “pubic” library. The best part was that this coworker was unnecessarily verbose and overly formal, so her emails were always like, “Good morning partners, I hope this email finds you well in your endeavors. The reason I am writing is to seek your support in requesting assistance with…” and having all of that build-up to the “pubic” library was freaking awesome. She was also a total prude, so when I pointed out that she had made that typo she did not laugh.

      1. Manders*

        I’ve heard that offices that work with the public will sometimes have programs that automatically fix this typo for just this reason!

        1. Jen S. 2.0*

          I have absolutely seen an ad for a university where you can get a master’s degree in pubic administration. All righty, then.

          1. Jadelyn*

            I get resumes from time to time (for jobs at an activist nonprofit) with people talking about their impressive track record in pubic service. Ah, well. It helps the time go faster while I’m reading dozens of resumes.

      2. memyselfandi*

        This reminded me that I have a tendency to type “sex ration” instead of “sex ratio.” I have to be careful to double check as grammar check doesn’t pick it up.

      3. Anonymous for this*

        Ooh, this is a bad one.

        A former coworker at a newspaper, presumably living in fear of a “public” -> “pubic” typo making it into print, had “pubic” autocorrected to “public.”

        Then they wrote a serious story about a person who had suffered an injury to the public region. It was my favorite typo of the year. (My all-time favorite was an “año”/”ano” mixup. I had to explain it with a straight face.)

      4. hermit crab*

        I’ve told this story here before, but I work on projects related to public health and public drinking water systems. Back in the day, a staff member at our company apparently sent in a huge, high-stakes proposal with the L missing on the front cover. That individual is now the CEO and we have a company-wide SOP to do a find-replace on “pubic” before submitting all deliverables.

    8. INeedANap*

      Putting through a colleague’s short term disability paperwork, I sent this email:

      “Hi [Other Colleague], Just checking to see how Jane Doe’s STD is going – everything okay there?”

      1. Meghan*

        I had to hold myself back from abbreviating it when I wrote to HR about my own two days ago.

      2. Ann O. Nymous*

        We often use “STD” for “Save the Date,” and my very immature coworker once saw me write “STD” in an email subject line to another coworker and started giggling, which I ignored because he was super obnoxious. He then asked me coyly if I knew why he was giggling…. No, Carl, I don’t know what an STD is, please explain it to me in great detail!!!! He was in his late 40s. C’mon, dude.

      3. memyselfandi*

        There was a whole discussion of STD (short term disability) here a while ago. I am in public health where STD means something totally different, and I was very puzzled for a while.

      4. Ann O'Nemity*

        One of our vendor’s abbreviation is STI. Occasionally it will be used in a sentence that could be taken out of context for sure.

    9. Justin*

      This isn’t misusing but:

      At my job, we have a project that’s related to the department of taxation and finance.

      So there’s a whole lot of talk about “DTF.”

      1. Coqui*

        Oh gosh, we have a DTF-labeled department, too! One of our co-workers mangles his emails and forgets words. He regularly emails the team to let us know of his whereabouts: “I’m DTF”

    10. Coalea*

      At a previous job, every project and its associated task had to be accounted for in our timekeeping system, which had a strict limit to the number of characters allowed. This led to lots of abbreviations, most notably “anal” for analysis.

      1. Ugh.*

        This reminds me of the (completely SFW) abbreviation the library I work in uses in place of the full name of the magazine Business Week: BusiWeek.

      2. BenAdminGeek*

        Yes! Job titles of “Sr Anal” and the like in our IM system just crack me up. I know, I’m 5…

      3. Elizabeth West*

        LOL I’ve seen that one a couple of times.

        At Exjob, our intranet page titled “This Company & Associates” in the tab once appeared on my computer as “This Company & Ass.”

        1. Ann O'Nemity*

          Yes! One of our customers was listed as “Bass & Ass” in the old CRM. To this day, a few of our long time employees still call Bass & Associates “Bass and Ass.”

        2. Echo*

          I used to work for an organization with a name like “National Association of XYZ” and my bank statements read NATIONAL ASSPAYROLL for my paychecks!

        3. Paquita*

          We have a company doing business with us ‘Company’ & Associates. We just write it Company & A. Or just C & A.

    11. NNFTD*

      Kind of the opposite problem: A common phrase at my company is to “blap” a file, which is just used to mean “delete and replace.” So, like, if there’s a problem with an INI file, blap it! (replace it with the default INI file)

      I was trying to figure out if this was a well-known term, because I had never heard it before, so I googled it… yeah, the first thing that comes up is urban dictionary, and the definition is NOT safe for work.

      I have no idea how this phrase became a common bit of jargon here, but I laugh a little every time I hear it.

    12. UK Civil Servant*

      It turns my stomach every time the government role Permanent Under Secretary is abbreviated, especially when said out loud. :(

      1. Slartibartfast*

        Which reminds me of this tidbit: always write pus-like discharge in a medical record. Don’t make “pus” an adjective.

    13. Nordo*

      I worked for a company that started with the letter “T” and in information technology. During one of our restructuring meetings, the CIO was talking about how he was going to rebrand us and call us [Company Name] Information Technology and Systems. As he was saying this, he was writing the abbreviation on the whiteboard: TITS. He looked at the board and said something like “well, let me rethink that.”

    14. Engineer on the Dark Side*

      The plants track cumulative orders from the customer. Of course it gets abbreviated as CUMs in emails. What is even more fun is hearing it said during phone conferences. The middleschooler in me just giggles.

      1. Jadelyn*

        You know, I saw someone propose a rule once – I think on Twitter – that any use of an acronym or nickname should have to pass the 13-year-old test. You tell it to a 13-year-old, and see how they react. If they start giggling, don’t use it.

    15. DeeShyOne*

      The following gem came from an immediate supervisor, in an effort to get the money aspect of our job increased and to decrease the amount of transactions needed (I’m sure he pulled all of this jargon from his “selfhelp guidelines”), released an email to our team:

      “….ladies and gents, we need to get all of the money booked for the third quarter as we can, but we need to make sure the transactions are more under control and make sure to get that count down…”

      Except…he left the “o” out of “count”….

    16. that Broadway nerd*

      Not really an answer to your question, but your comment made me laugh/feel nostalgic because at my undergrad, we had a little convenience store in our student center that was ostensibly called the “Student Exchange”. Naturally, we students just HAD to abbreviate it – so it became absolutely common and unremarkable to say “oh give me 10 minutes, I need to pick something up at the SexChange”. Gotta love college students.

    17. Coqui*

      We have a “standard” and “professional” software suite. Boss sent out an email to the departments using abbreviations to let them know who had which, and to let them know who needed an upgrade to professional.

      According to that email most of our 700 employees have “STD”.

    18. Trillion*

      Sort of applicable. Once my boss (man) and I (woman) needed to open a bunch of product to find a specific serial numbered item. The boxes are taped shut and have styrofoam tightly wedged that we had to be careful not to damage. To speed up the process, I suggested an assembly line-style operation where I’d untape and open the boxes then he’d pull the styrofoam out. What I actually said was “I’ll open up if you’ll pull out.”

      It took both of us a second, then he broke down laughing while I blushed pinker than a flamingo.

    19. EmilySpinach*

      Not a misuse so much as a people-who-are-not-clued-into-the-internet thing, but at my university faculty are expected to write up an Activity Plan for the year, detailing their work goals and such. This used to just be called Workload Plan/WP, but I guess they decided they like the idea of “activities” rather than “workload,” so now, every October, all faculty have to FAP.

      1. JaneB*

        I regularly get invited to FAPs – Faculty Approvals Panels for quality related paperwork – and here in the U.K. most of my colleagues have NO idea that this is funny

        We also have a FEC process which leads to a lot of comments about FECing forms etc (again not everyone gets it but Father Ted watching means it’s more we felt known than FAP)

        1. DaphneD*

          Where I work (also in the UK) we have panels that are also abbreviated to FAP, and I have had to train myself out of giggling like a schoolgirl every time I hear things like “yes, I’ll be FAPping all day Thursday” or “I need to send out FAP invites” or “can you follow up with Bob about the FAP?”

          After having to direct more than one mystified colleague to Urban Dictionary (NOT on their work computer!) I keep my reactions to myself.

    21. Just Truckin'*

      The local bank came in to see if they could offer any services or loans. I replied that we needed a few trailers, maybe a reefer or two.

      I had been in the industry for 10 years or so and didn’t realized until the VP and branch manager started stifling their giggling exactly what I had said. My face burned with embarrassment. We all recovered and I got a refrigerated trailer.

      1. Jadelyn*

        I worked at a fuel card company call center once, years ago. The entire training class burst out laughing the first time the trainer said something about getting authorization for reefer.

        I mean, we all got desensitized eventually, but that first time was really something.

    22. Den Mother*

      I send out all Boy Scout updates with the title BS yadda, yadda. I was doing it for weeks before someone asked me to please spell it out…

    23. Future Homesteader*

      Not mangling, but I was at a gardening class last night that involved an extensive discussion of how to use tools, including proper handling, grip, etc. I am officially a third-grader because I wanted to giggle. the. entire. time. It was awful. But then, you’d never want to sit next to me watching sports, because I still think ball handling is also hilarious (I am a 30something woman).

      1. Fergus, Stealer of Pens and Microwaver of Fish*

        I keep thinking that I’ll eventually stop giggling every time a football announcer talks about “penetration.” I’m 40 and it hasn’t happened yet.

        1. Student Engineer*

          I still haven’t stopped laughing at the realisation that CPBW stands for Complete Penetration Butt Weld. You’d think someone would have thought that through. Also engineers talking about member stiffness gets me every time

    24. Kittyfish 76*

      I used to work at a medical and industrial gas accessories wholesaler. We had rubber cap-type accessories called “nipples”, which would come as part of an assembly of other accessories. And the word “assembly” was always abbreviated “assy”! So it was quite humorous to receive shipments of “assy nipples”

    25. LateToTheBBQ*

      I work in global public health, so we have some good ones. Of course, the public/pubic typo comes up frequently.
      We once had a study researching causes of infant death in a particular country with a very long name, so naturally it became “The Dead Baby Study” around the office.
      I specialize in infectious diseases and have freaked out some uber drivers when I have to be on a call in the car talking about medical male circumcision, condoms, health programs for sex workers, etc.
      Also, we do quite a bit of work with the Office of the Global AIDS Coordinator (OGAC), yes – pronounced “oh-gak”
      Lastly, not jargon, but my favorite typo ever was one I fortunately caught before hitting send – hug instead of huge. As in “I don’t think it’s worth waging a hug(e) battle over this”

        1. Durham Rose*

          I always liked OGAC! I’d picture some sort of Nickelodeon slime product. I’m in global public (pubic?) health too, we have some good acronyms eh?

          1. LateToTheBBQ*

            Great acronyms for sure. And depending on your specialty/project, sometimes it IS pubic health!

        2. LateToTheBBQ*

          I know, right? I still find it amusing if I AM planning on waging a huge battle to take a moment to enjoy the hug battle scenario first.

    26. Bowl of Oranges*

      Not work jargon but some unfortunate wording from a conversation with my husband about work. He mentioned that his boss had been hinting at a small surprise they would get this afternoon. What he said was “Dick teased we might get…”

    27. Pinky*

      Not industry-specific, but I did mess up a pretty basic initialism last week. We were doing group values training and I was assigned to be the person who read our group’s responses. One of my coworkers wrote down “SOP” (standard/standing operating procedure) but when I read it aloud, I said “standard of practice.” I knew it was wrong as soon as I said it, but it had the same meaning in my mind, so I’ve been using the abbreviation correctly for years without ever actually knowing what it meant, I guess. No one corrected me or acted confused, but I was still pretty embarrassed.

    29. dawnhawk*

      I once worked in the IT department of a University library. The Dean of the library at the time had a fondness for committees (more so than I’ve seen in other academia which is saying something). I came into my boss’ office one day to see this very long, strange list of acronyms scrawled across half of the whiteboard – which took up one entire wall of the office. When I queried what they were I was informed they were all of the committees she needed to report to or attend a meeting for in the next week or so since everyone needed IT for something.

      Given that the committees all had ungodly long names she’d written them all as acronyms. Some of them came out rather unfortunate (Staff Training & Development became the STD committee for example). But my favourite to this day is the STALL committee (I don’t remember the exact committee name but it was for the Library Liaisons). I looked at her and went “it’s the point of all of them to stall?”.

    30. smoke tree*

      In my industry, it’s not uncommon to shorten “production assistant” to “prod ass”

    31. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Not a misuse, but the term I’ve seen get the most side-eye from outsiders is SOL (statute of limitations).

    32. rubyrose*

      This is extremely old.

      When I started my IT career, the removable storage (disk drives) for our computer were roughly the shape of the Star Ship Enterprise and huge; think 12 inches high, 16 inches in length. We had four of them and the machine they resided in while being used took up a huge amount of space. You could look through the clear plastic windows and see them.

      I got a resume from someone who said their goal was to have a disk job. I knew he meant desk job, but my visual was of him sitting on a bar stool staring at the disks in operation for eight hours straight.

    33. Oxford Coma*

      I’m in tech for a construction-adjacent industry, and you can always tells the noob interns. They’re the ones giggling about pipe nipples and male/female sockets.

    34. Other Duties as Assigned*

      From my news reporter background. All large news agencies have obits of famous people ready to go, so as to have material available rapidly when needed. Occasionally, a news wire service will press the wrong button and accidentally send out an obit of someone who isn’t dead (it famously happened to Bob Hope). One morning, I was watching the AP wires in my newsroom when an obit came for the character actor Ralph Bellamy. It told of his long career, gave his filmography, etc. The snag was he was not dead. The wire sent out an immediate advisory about the error and this was a severe enough mistake that the normal “correction” wasn’t sufficient. The higher-level action in wirespeak was a “kill.” The wire message under the heading “Kill Advisory” was: “The story slugged Bellamy-Obit is incorrect. Bellamy is not dead. A kill is mandatory.” If one didn’t know the jargon, it reads as though they were trolling for someone to bump off Bellamy so the story would be correct.

      1. Buffy*

        I saw Hollywood Life accidentally published an article announcing Prince Philip was dead this week. He had hip surgery, so I guess they had been updating it…jarring to see!

    35. T&A Manager*

      In our payroll and timekeeping system, we have to designate managers for the Time and Attendance module. It’s so tempting to abbreviate as T&A manager… but I have yet to do so in practice :)

      1. All Anon*

        I’m a new HR person here and a manager was explaining how they were going to assign a employee named Woody to two different departments so that he now has half a woody. It was all I could do to not burst out laughing.

      2. Jadelyn*

        Sadly we got the Time Management (TM) module for our HRIS, not the T&A one. So many giggles I didn’t get to have.

    36. Vir*

      Public library here. Our labeling for manga series sometimes results in unintentionally funny and/or inappropriate call numbers. The collection code is MAN for manga, plus the first three letters of the series name. Unfortunately, for the popular manga series “Assassination Classroom”, it becomes…

      MAN
      ASS

      Oh well. It’s better than it was when it used to be in the teen collection… in those days it was TEEN MAN ASS. o_o

    37. Djuna*

      I moved from one company where the acronym SME was used to mean small/medium-sized enterprises, to another where…it wasn’t.

      I kept hearing that such-and-such was an SME, and it took me months to discover that it means Subject Matter Expert. People still tease me about how baffled I was by it.

      And on bafflement, my boss got an “informative” email today from a department we work with occasionally. It was so full of acronyms that she had to enlist a bunch of us to help translate it. Not so informative, then!

    39. Esme*

      ifap.ed.gov was a resource I had to introduce my training classes to with careful phrasing. I wonder if Information for Financial Aid Professionals will ever change their name, at least to get rid of that ‘i’.

    40. Newtothis*

      When I was in the military, I worked at a help desk and I was replying to an officers request about an SMTP gateway. I always had my email set up to run the spell checker and automatically change words before it sent. Well on this particular occasion, the server didn’t recognize SMTP and changed all of them to SH*T gateways. As soon as I saw that I went into my bosses office and explained what happened. I tried to recall it, but she was to quick and had already read it. I had to call her and apologize and I took the spell checker off that very minute…talk about embarrassment. Before I had the chance to call her, my boss did and he told her to yell at me about it…and then let me in on the secret afterwards.

    41. Sparkly Librarian*

      I just did a keyword search in my email, and in 3 years I’ve gotten half a dozen messages that left out the L in “public library”. (To be fair, I only noticed one at the time.)

    42. Aealias*

      I teach band, and always know that my students have hit adolescence when they start giggling over fingerings and tonguing, which we discuss on the regular.

    43. Hamburke*

      Not for my job but my volunteer position – we used to have the LUSR Report – local unit status report. They changed the name in July after the conference where it was pointed out but I can’t remember what the new report is called!

  3. WellRed*

    Does Alison have a resume guide? I need to really think about moving on, but haven’t had to put one together in more than 12 years. I don’t know where to begin.

    2. not an expert*

      I have put several together for many people over the years. I find it important to research other resumes specific to your field. It’s no longer a standard 1 page resume and cover letter. Each industry is different in what they expect to see and layout ideas. The research will also help with phrasing some things you want to say, but may struggle to put eloquently.

      1. WellRed*

        I have had trouble finding resume examples for writing/editing/journalism. Which also makes it tricky, because I am struggling with what to show as accomplishments. It’s not like I’ve won a Pulitzer or increased ad sales 150%.

        1. Serious Pillowfight*

          Hopefully this doesn’t get buried, but I’m in the same boat as you re: quantifying my accomplishments as a writer/editor in journalism. Some things to consider:

          Do you have any sort of Google analytics on your company’s website? Can you say you wrote for a publication with X number of visitors/circulation/etc.? Can you see how many readers clicked on your stories? Did you help anyone edit their work into publishable shape? Did something you edited get a lot of web traffic? Did you avert any crises in terms of catching a particularly egregious error before it went to print?

        2. Serious Pillowfight*

          And don’t forget that, although you aren’t personally selling the ads, the ad reps are selling the ads based on the pub’s circulation and the content YOU are generating.

  4. Pet sitter*

    I’ve been hired to drive a dog to doggie daycare. Daycare’s admission time is at the same time that the local schools start, so I am joining the school traffic, waiting in a carpool line, and then dropping a puppy off at puppy school. Adorable.

    3. Alice Ulf*

      I bet the puppy is much happier about going to school than a lot of those human students! Awwsh.

    4. soscrescentfresh*

      Please tell me you plan to say “Bye puppy! Have a good day at school!” like it’s your kid.

    5. Can't Sit Still*

      Do you pick the puppy up from doggie daycare too? Is this a regular job or a one-time thing? This is too cute!

    7. voluptuousfire*

      I’m picturing a puppy with a backpack, jumping out of a minivan from the car pool and running into school.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        My doggy daycare occasionally gives out report cards and it is awesome. Even when he doesn’t do a great job. But once he got an A++ with a note about how much he was improving and I loved it so much.

        1. Naptime Enthusiast*

          I think I would be more proud of that than some of my own performance reviews.

        1. myswtghst*

          My parents’ 90-lb yellow lab always got an A+ on her report cards from the groomer, which gave me a laugh every time because while she was a generally lovely dog, she was a holy terror when you cut her nails, so I found that grade to be a bit hard to believe.

          I’m glad my 46-lb English Bulldog does not get a report card, because she is a drama queen who hates all forms of grooming (super helpful for a breed that needs frequent face wipes), and is not terribly sure about people who are not me or my husband. I always feel bad for the 4(!) people it takes to cut her nails at the vet.

    9. Happy Lurker*

      I used to drive my dog to the bus stop every day to put the kids on the bus. One day we missed the bus and drove to the elementary school. My darn dog wiggled out of his seat belt and ran into school with all the kids.

      Dog was in his glory. He LOVES everyone, especially kids. I was horrified! Car in the middle of the lot, doors wide open. The kids “meanest” teacher had grabbed the dog and brought him out to me. It was something like out of a sitcom.

      2. Faintlymacabre*

        I grew up in a neighborhood where it was common to let the dogs run loose in the streets. Our dog would wait with the kids while they waited for the school bus. Then one day she decided heck it, I’m getting on the bus, too! We got a note in our mailbox saying that it was adorable but also needed to stop. Poor puppy.

    10. Yvette*

      CUTE CUTE CUTE!!!!! Do you hand the puppy a brown bag lunch too? Cutest post of the day!!

    12. ChemMoose*

      We have to take our dog to doggie day care every day (health/personality reasons) and it’s cute all the time. He has a “best friend” that looks like him but in a different color (whos owner drives the same car). He’s also learning how to bark, which in his case isn’t a bad thing. Everytime we drop him off we say “Bye Threo! Have a good day!”

  5. Happy Friday*

    How do you engage with a coworker who talks to you in a very patronizing way?

    Background: Coworker “John” was hired for a role in a technical area that the rest of the team know little about, except me. He definitely has more knowledge than I, but I’m by no means clueless. I’m able to comfortably discuss technical details with him and have even shared techniques with him that he didn’t know about (and vice-versa). He’s told me in the past that he feels he can talk to me about this technical area because “I would get it.”

    The challenge I have with John is that he still very often talks down to me. He lectures me about stuff that I already know—even basic concepts. For example, I shared an offhand observation with him about something. I didn’t ask or wonder why it was happening because I already knew why. If you knew the basics of this technical area, you would already know why. Anyway, I was just making a casual statement, but he still replied with, “Oh that’s happening because [insert explanation, followed by what he thinks the team/company should be doing forward].” During his explanation, I just kept replying with, “I know…I know…I know…” This happens a lot. When talking to me and other people, John also often starts his sentences with phrases like “You gotta understand” or “You have to realize” or “The company needs to [do so and so] because [insert another explanation]” or “We need to [do so and so] because [insert another explanation].”

    Either John really wants to teach people and share knowledge, or he wants to project that he knows a lot. Not sure.

    I do not want to directly raise this issue with him because I feel like it would make things too tense. But I’m wondering if there are any proper casual comebacks I could use to mitigate his approach? I’m not sure if this is relevant, but he is the only male in a team of six and comes from a very traditional background.

    1. KimberlyR*

      I think in the moment, when he starts on an unnecessary explanation, you can break in and say, “Actually John, I do have a deep understanding of llama training. I would rather focus on moving from training to wrangling so can we focus on the wrangling aspect?” If he continues to talk about the thing you already know, interrupt him again and say, “Again, I’ve got that covered. I have extensive experience there. So to clarify further on the llama training…”

      1. Natalie*

        Yeah, I’d cut him off more directly in the moment. If he isn’t understanding “I know” to mean you don’t want his explanation, then you probably need to clearly tell him to stop talking.

        Although, I don’t know that you need to be that wordy, depending on your relationship and style. If you can keep a fairly jocular tone, literally just the words “John, stop explaining” might suffice.

        1. smoke tree*

          Yeah, I’d just cut him off and say something like, “John, I already know this stuff, remember? You don’t need to explain it to me.” And then get back to your actual point.

      2. Millennial Lawyer*

        I agree with this tactic, especially because it’s directing him into what you actually do need his expertise on. Since he was “hired for a role in a technical area that the rest of the team know little about” he is probably *doing his job* and not meaning to be rude – although you would know if there’s a condescending tone or not, OP. I think saying “I know” “I know” comes off as a little too hostile/frustrating since it seems he would be doing his job just fine if it were anywhere else. Having a substantive way to redirect will be better for you.

      1. Chaordic One*

        You know, my former bad boss would be the same way with other men whom he perceived as being “lower class.” I can’t say with certainty, but I think it came from him attending an ivy league college and hob-knobbing with a lot of well-to-do people in his job as a fundraiser for the non-profit where we worked. The people he would condescend to mostly came from mere state universities. It was like the ugly side of meritocracy.

        But, yeah, it could be “man-splaining.”

        1. Sarah M*

          I used to encounter this a lot when I worked for MBB Firm ages ago. I think of it as Eloi-splaining. It was really cute when the Ubermensch in question was completely and totally wrong about ____. (Which happened far more often than you might expect.)

        2. LouiseM*

          YES. So many mansplainers are also extremely (subconsciously) classist. I’ve noticed it really come out when they want to assert their manliness and do so by pointing out aspects of their “beta”‘s dress or appearance that they consider low-class. My ex would do that all the time, being really rude and he-man to a total stranger and explaining it away by “did you see how douchey this guy looked?” And guess who else he always condescended to, even though he was a “feminist”? That’s right, yours truly.

      2. Samiratou*

        I was thinking more like a “nerdsplainer.” I’ve seen this phenomenon among my friends, and have almost certainly been guilty of it from time to time. It’s not meant to be condescending, it’s just people who may not have the best social skills who are really interested/excited about something and want to make sure you know all about it, without considering that you already do know about it or might not care (because who wouldn’t care about the Thing!?!).

        He might also be using you as a sounding board or something and you’re getting the brunt of his internal monologue turned outward.

        It might be worth it to address it to him directly, or he might get all offended and huffy, hard to say. I’d probably go with kind of tuning him out and going “mm-hm” and “huh” every once in awhile while continuing on with my work, but depending on where and when you get the lectures that might not work. If that’s the case, gentle interruptions with “sorry, gotta get this delivered!” or similar as an excuse to cut the convo short and hustle off.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Nerdsplaining is what I thought of too. It sounds a lot like my friend who likes to explain Doctor Who stuff to me. He’s more knowledgeable than I am and gets really earnest about it–I don’t mind because he’s adorable and clueless, unless it’s something I didn’t ask for.

        2. Solo*

          Yep. I have gotten called out on this a lot. After I deep dive into a topic, I often don’t have a good sense of what’s “easy”/well-known vs hard. I’ve learned to check in more often and poke fun at myself when I do it, but it’s still a deeply-rooted pattern of behavior. (Growing up, most of my friends were books, or adults.)

        3. Temperance*

          I consider that a form of mansplaining, BUT i’m a nerd and feel like it’s just as often gatekeeping nonsense as it is actual excitement.

        4. Close Bracket*

          Anytime you (generically, not you personally) are tempted to explain away rude behavior on the part of a man by saying “he’s probably just awkward,” don’t. Grown-ass men can learn social skills. The reason they don’t is not, for the most part, is not that they are somehow impaired in social learning. The reason they don’t, for the most part, is that they live in a position of privilege and don’t have to consider their words before speaking. Let’s stop treating them like awkward missing stairs and start calling them out.

    3. Grayson*

      Look at him quizzically and go “Yeah, I know.” Or something along the lines of expressing sincere confusion. Maybe parrot his own words back to him regarding his ability to talk to you about things because you “get it”?

    4. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      I think raising it with him directly will actually work far better, because he doesn’t seem the type to pick up on hints.

      I get you don’t want to confront him per se, but a sideways approach might bear fruit. Something along the lines of:

      ‘Hey John, you know you and I are the “tech folk” here, right? I’d rather chat with you about the specialised stuff only we get, not basics we both already know.’

      Then all future overexplaining of basics could be amusedly cut off with ‘Tech folk, remember!’

    5. CatCat*

      “John, I’ve noticed a pattern where you explain things to me that I already know even after I tell you that I know. What’s up with that?”

    6. Recently Diagnosed*

      I would be super tempted to turn around and do it to him back. Just explain something he clearly already knows in agonizing detail, then when he tells me he already knows that, just go wide-eyed and say “It’s almost like we’re on the same level or something!”

      But don’t do that. Instead, like others mentioned, a polite but direct approach will probably work best. Point it out consistently as it happens.

    7. Anonymous Ampersand*

      Can I stop you there… I’m not sure why you’re explaining this to me. I understand already!

      Good luck :-|

    8. strawberries and raspberries*

      Re: “You have to realize” and “you gotta understand” variety mansplainers

      When someone at my job did that enough times to me (mind you, I’m a manager, he’s not), I finally said, “Do you have reason to believe that I don’t understand [concept]?” John will probably bumble his way through a “No, of course not!” (as my colleague did), but maybe he will come back with some microaggressive nonsense about “I’ve been doing this a lot longer than you,” at which point you can just be like, “Okay, noted” and then document the hell out of every other patronizing thing he does that seems rooted in prejudice.

      It’s funny because we had a new guy start recently who did the very same thing to me (on his second day here, no less, while he was shadowing me), and I’ve had enough experience with guys like this that when my director asked what I thought of him I was completely honest about finding him patronizing and a little sexist, because that kind of attitude also potentially impacts the clients we work with and how we serve them. Lo and behold, he’s already offloading administrative duties onto his only female team member, but since I said something, they can view it as part of a pattern and address it faster. (NB: I’ve been with my org a long time and I’m a known quantity, so they take my view of these situations seriously, but YMMV.)

    9. ajaner*

      I recently had a similar experience, albeit in a very different field! I’m in a graduate program and a classmate responded to my critique of a concept with a long winded explanation of a very basic concept (that both nurture and nature contribute to our development). Although I indicated I already knew that and that it was not exactly pertinent to our current discussion, he launched into essentially the same explanation again. Since the prof was not wrangling the situation, I waited for a pause and said “Why do you think I don’t understand this?”; he trailed off and the discussion sort of got back on track.

      It’s very annoying, but I have gotten to the point where I don’t mind being direct about this. A work setting is more tricky than an classroom setting for sure, but professional behavior is highlighted in our program and my interruption was viewed as “unprofessional”. I wonder why his needing to explain an off-topic basic concept was not?

      1. J.B.*

        Noting “Why do you think I don’t understand this?” for future use. Nice approach!

      2. Julia*

        That’s infuriating. Why is it standing up for yourself is seen as interrupting? I‘m guessing because women shouldn’t talk so much or some other sexist crap. Ugh.

    10. Overeducated*

      Sometimes tech people who work primarily with non-tech people are just used to explaining everything from the ground up and have trouble keeping track of who has what level of knowledge. I agree with others that raising it directly would be helpful, and honestly, show off your knowledge intentionally around him for a bit…I hate to say it but being over the top a little can help shift perceptions and may help him move you back to the “expert” category in his mind.

      1. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

        Oh this is a good point! I work in a subject matter that most people consider pretty dry and overly technical (though, not at all in “tech”, think more along the lines of law). A big part of my job is getting people to do things that they see as silly/pointless/superfluous (but that actually have pretty serious, mostly financial, potential consequences if not done). I’m pretty good at explaining why these things need to be done and what the potential consequences are in a very clear, direct way, which does seem to go a long way in getting people to actually do these things. However, because most people are not all that familiar with the subject matter I do tend to start “from the ground up”.

        I conduct a small part of the orientation for new hires, and before I conduct that I ask about their familiarity so that I can gear my orientation spiel towards that, but yeah, I totally admit, after that it’s hard for me to keep track of who falls where on the spectrum of understanding and any issues that come up outside of orientation are given basic level understand explanations.

        Good food for thought though… That might be a good thing to try to pay a bit more attention to so that I don’t annoy the colleagues who do have some familiarity with the subject.

      2. Anion*

        That was my thought, too. There are things I over-explain because I’m just used to having to do so. John may simply be so used to explaining that it’s become a habit or almost a verbal tic, or he may not want to assume you know things and have you not follow, or any number of possibilities.

        Just laugh and says, “John. I already know this stuff, remember?” No need to get snarky or sarcastic.

    11. Elena*

      I have been in this situation a few times. It usually worked out in either me realizing I didn’t know as much as I thought, or cutting through the dross to get what I needed. And the same people got easier to work with and respected my knowledge more over time. In my experience, these are highly skilled people without a forte in communication, who have had to explain their work to completely clueless people, people who thought they know things but didn’t, people who don’t listen csrefuly, etc. – so now they cover their bases by being very thorough.

      I think it is most helpful to view the situation through a long-term lens, which means calibrating your communication approach to him over time and demonstrating your knowledge over time.

      Specifically: for short Q&As, if his answer has too much basic info but answers your question, say thanks and move on.

      If his explication is wasting your time, politely interrupt with, “hey, I know thr basics of X. I was wondering about modifying feature Y. Is it possible?” These detailed questions will also expose gaps in his knowledge and show whether he is actually full of it or not.

      If you ever work with him fod an extended period of time, I bet a lot od the friction will go away after a day or two of the aforementioned calibration. And you will have trained him for your successors ;)

      1. slipjac*

        I’ve had good success with just impatiently saying, “Yes, I know.” as soon as guys start doing that. I don’t want to spend more time on it, but I do want to make it clear the guy is wasting my time.

        1. LouiseM*

          Same here. It helps to show you’re surprised that they would think you DON’T know what they’re saying–because you are surprised! Of course you know it!

    12. MicroManagered*

      “You gotta understand”

      “I do understand, John, but what I’m focused on is X.”

    13. Wolfram alpha*

      I don’t see it as condescending or rude at all. I am a Jane in IT working with 99% of folks who don’t know what the start button.

      If I assume they know something then I get chewed out for not realizing “they don’t know everything” and if I guess wrong and explain something they already know then I am a “calling them stupid” it’s a tough balancing act.

      1. Jessie the First (or second)*

        Except that’s not the issue for Happy Friday – Happy Friday is in fact well beyond basic level, and her colleague knows this. Therefore, his launching into extended explanations of basic-level info – that he knows or should know that she’s got covered – is condescending.

        You’re talking about interacting with people who are tech-clueless. That is different.

        1. LouiseM*

          Exactly. Also, speaking as someone who DOES sometimes have to explain really “basic” stuff to others, it’s still extremely important to do that without seeming condescending. If this guy comes off as condescending it’s because he is.

    14. Triple Anon*

      I have the same problem. People often act as though I know less than I do. I’ve had some luck with just having direct conversations with people. I let them know how they’re coming across, ask if I did anything to provoke it, and emphasize that I’m sure they mean well and I want to work together better. The key is to make it a friendly, empathetic and nonjudgmental conversation, and to talk privately.

      When I don’t get a chance to talk to someone privately, sometimes raising the bar helps. Following a long winded explanation, say, “I know. But have you considered [XYZ really thought provoking thing]?” Some people will respect you more and stop being condescending after that. The downside is that if the person is a jerk, they might just feel more threatened and get even more condescending and mean. You have to guess whether it’s an ego thing or an ignorance thing.

      Sigh. There is no all around solution. Wishing you the best of luck!

    15. CM*

      I find that subtlety does not work with Johns. I had a coworker who was the worst and I stopped him once and said, “You don’t need to explain things to me on this level. I have a master’s degree in this area and am very familiar with what you’re telling me. Please assume I understand X and let’s focus on solving this problem. I think a possible solution is Y, but want to get your input.” And he said, “Oh, how nice. Well, in SCHOOL they may have taught you…” and he went right on mansplaining, but adding references to how I may have learned this in SCHOOL.

      In my experience the only things that remotely work are (1) repeatedly insisting that you know this and attempting to refocus him on the issue at hand, and (2) I hate to say this, but having a male coworker back you up, which it sounds like is not an option for you.

    16. BenAdminGeek*

      My take- set aside the weird verbal tic of You gotta understand” or “You have to realize” and focus on the rest. I’ve had mansplainers, nerdsplainers, and just normal folks who use that turn of phrase, so that may be just an oddity for him.

      The other stuff to me sounds like he keeps lumping you in with everyone else- he’s got a bucket of people who are “less technical than me on topic X” and you’re lumped in with Susie who knows absolutely nothing. The key is to get him to build a new category of “knows more than the rest” for you to sit in. Re-affirming your shared skills and knowledge seems like the way to do that.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      “John, when people tell you “I know” that means you are over-explaining and you need to stop.”
      This lays the ground work for the next time:
      “John, you are over-explaining again.”
      And the next time:
      “John, you know when you over-explain people think that you don’t think very much of their abilities. People can feel insulted.”

      Or you can play the time angle:
      “John, we spend a lot of time with you over-explaining things. Why don’t you check first to see if we need more explanation before launching into an explanation.”

      Or you could go with the courtesy angle:
      “John, what we are all doing here with each other is checking first before explaining. We look for a confused look on people’s faces or perhaps a direct question. Unless we have a direct question asked of us, we assume the person knows what we mean and we stick to the main points rather than long-winded explanations of each detail along the way.”

      Really, you are doing him a favor if you tell him about how he is impacting others.

      1. A Worker Bee*

        “John, we spend a lot of time with you over-explaining things. Why don’t you check first to see if we need more explanation before launching into an explanation.”

        Oh, I love this one. Thanks.

    18. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

      I have had luck with treating this sort of thing with its own condescension. When someone is overexplaining something like this, I give them a sort of bemused look and say something like, “Yep, that’s correct.” The key is to use a tone of voice that is a little bit patronizing, like, “good job! you got it!”, and also a little bit stern, like “why are you bothering me with this?”

      I will note that I mostly use this on friends/family; I haven’t had much call to use it at work and I can’t guarantee its efficacy in that context. Most often the person I’ve used it on has been unintentionally engaging in the offending behavior, and it has served as a snap to get them to wake up and realize what they’re doing. I would not recommend it on someone senior to you, but for a peer it might work.

      (I did not invent this method; I read it somewhere. It may have been in a prior AAM comments thread but I really don’t remember.)

    19. LouiseM*

      Ugh Happy Friday, I have nothing to add to the excellent comments here except my commiseration! Sadly, I have a few friends (luckily not colleagues) who do this all the time. Something that’s especially frustrating is it tends to be the men who are the most vocal about being feminist, and the ones who pat themselves on the back the most for telling other men not to do this to women, who do this the most to me. I have one friend who I love dearly, but I can’t tell you how many times he’s explained something he should have realized I knew better than he did. And it’s really frustrating because I’m also friends with his wife, who is a huge feminist, and he clearly takes a lot of pride in how “equal” their relationship is. I sometimes wonder how much he mansplains to her behind closed doors.

  6. Moth*

    About six months ago I took on my first “real” employee to manage (I’ve led teams before but never had someone report directly to me). I’ve tried to make the onboarding for Spock as smooth as possible, trying not to pull him into the rampant office politics going on, while still making sure that he’s getting to know people in the department. Overall it’s gone well and I’ve received a lot of positive feedback on how he’s doing.

    However, McCoy, another colleague, has latched on to Spock and talks frequently to him. The problem is that McCoy is known by most of us to be a malicious gossip and will often dig for the most benign of information and then run to Kirk, the department head, where he spins the information to try to gain points. Unfortunately, Kirk encourages this and people have gotten in trouble from misinformation spread by McCoy (there are clearly some deeper issues in the department that I’m not getting into here, but suffice it to say that Kirk has everyone looking over their shoulders). Those of us who have been burned by McCoy have learned to be very careful what we say to him.

    My question is: Should I warn Spock to be careful in speaking to McCoy? My inclination has been not to, I don’t want to seem like I’m badmouthing a colleague or telling Spock who to form work friendships with. But I do want to make sure Spock knows that gossip from McCoy can’t be trusted and, quite frankly, I’m worried McCoy will try to get some info out of Spock that he could spin to Kirk and try to get me in trouble as well. This isn’t Spock’s first job, but he is very trusting and seems to assume the best of people. Has anyone else felt the need to warn a trusting employee that someone else really shouldn’t be trusted?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I would say give them general advice about there always being some people who like to gossip and spread conjecture and suspicion, and to stay neutral if people appear to be gossiping or digging. Of course, unless he’s new to the workforce he should know that, but it is probably the safest way (for both of you) to give a warning. That way you don’t predispose him against McCoy, and you don’t come out as calling him a…er, pot-stirrer. Even if he is.

      1. Alternative Person*

        Same. It’s good to know who the sharks in the water are even if you already know to calibrate your speech.

      2. Coywolf*

        Same here! I was brought into the company by one of the sharks though so it’s understandable that people didn’t think they needed to warn me about my “friend.” (I wasn’t her friend, I was a family friend and she ended up burning me)
        Is there any way, OP, that you can tell McCoy to back off from Spock given his track record?

    3. Gorgo*

      Can you frame it in a really diplomatic way that lays as little accusation on McCoy as possible? “Sometimes, things people have shared with McCoy have been misunderstood, and gotten back to Kirk in ways that don’t always put them in the best light.”

      1. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

        I like this wording a lot. Just very simple and to the point. I’ve been the Spock before; I am pretty open and trusting with people. Overall I like that about myself, but I would and do appreciate warnings. I also don’t take warnings like this as “holy gospel”. Ex: if I were Spock in this situation and my manager warned me about McCoy (in the way Gorgo suggests! If some just told me that McCoy “was mean” or to “be careful of my friendship” with McCoy I would probably dismiss it outright just because that’s not really helpful at all), I wouldn’t end my friendship with McCoy. However, I would probably be more cautious to share sensitive info until I felt like I had a better idea of McCoy’s true character.

        I guess my recommendation would be to issue a single pointed, but also diplomatic/neutral/factual warning to Spock. From there, though, you have to step back. You can’t get upset if your warning goes unheeded (or seems to go unheeded).

      2. Moth*

        Thanks, I really like this wording as well! I couldn’t think of a way to phrase it that didn’t come off as spreading gossip myself, but I think this doesn’t accuse McCoy of deliberately being malicious, while still hopefully getting the point across to be aware of what’s being said.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      An old manager of mine warned me about a coworker very much like McCoy I made the mistake of “befriending” during a work conference. She didn’t outright say it, but she said something like, “Be very careful about the people you choose to associate with here. You have a very positive reputation with senior level executives here, and I don’t want anyone making any inferences about you or your character based on who they see you speaking to.” She didn’t say anything else – I took the hint because I trusted her judgment. Turns out this person was ultimately fired because she was on double probation and brought a gun to work. You just never know…

      1. Not So NewReader*

        How did you figure out it which person it was though?

        When I started working people told me stuff like this and I ended up not wanting to talk to anyone because I could not figure out who they meant.

        If you are going to say something, OP, either say who the person is or say nothing.

        Even looking back on it, I still don’t know which person they meant.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          She and I were discussing this “friend”, and my manager knew her because the girl had applied to the training program I ended up getting hired for. My manager passed on her, but forwarded her resume along to another division in our company thinking she might be a good fit – nope. She wasn’t. Then my manager had to listen to that division’s griping about this coworker for a year until they finally fired her. When I brought her up and said we were friendly, that’s when my manager said, “Why? You two are very different kinds of people.” I asked what she meant, and she sidestepped it, then gave me the above warning.

    5. Starbucks Girl*

      If there is a potential that his job/reputation with management is at risk by being open and friendly with McCoy, I would definitely say something to Spock. Do it in a very matter-of-fact and no drama kind of way, such as “Just to let you know, McCoy has a history of stirring the pot and causing trouble for people, and we’ve found it best to not interact with him beyond simple work-related conversation”. Spock will probably press for details, so it might be helpful to provide an example, but be clear that you aren’t interested in adding to the drama by gossiping about McCoy and that you are just looking out for Spock. Don’t mention the part where you might get in trouble too, because then it seems more like you have a personal bias/vendetta against McCoy (at the very least, your advice would appear self-serving).

      That said, if management encourages this, there may be some higher level dysfunction going on that Spock is already aware of. However, I still believe you’d be doing Spock a courtesy to say something.

      1. Starbucks Girl*

        To add to my suggestion, I do agree with some commenters that calling out McCoy directly may not be the best option. However I personally would prefer to have someone be direct with me about this, particularly since I- like Spock- also tend to be overly trusting with people. But that approach does risk coming off as unprofessional, so I guess it depends on how well you know Spock and your relationship with him.

        1. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

          I’m with you on this – I personally would prefer a direct warning rather than a vague “be careful who you associate with” warning, just because (to me, though I might be an outlier here) vague warnings feel much more “gossipy”. Like if you tell me something directly and factually “hey, McCoy has done x before” it feels like your intent is to prevent the consequences of x from happening to me and I can clearly see the business reason for that (if there is one!). But with vague warnings, sometimes it’s hard to place where the intent is then I might wonder is it business or personal or what…

          That’s just me though – it does probably depend more on your relationship with Spock.

      2. Moth*

        Thanks, Starbucks Girl, that’s a good point to make sure to leave out any reference to the consequences gossip from McCoy might have on me. While I do have some concerns about it, I’ve dealt with McCoy for a while and I think I can deflect anything he tries to pin on me. But I don’t want Spock to be caught in the middle of something or end up realizing he got someone else in trouble without meaning to. So far, management really likes Spock and I don’t think that he’s necessarily at risk because of associating with McCoy (because the deeper problem is that management all have pretty dysfunctional styles and they like that they can get gossip out of McCoy that benefits them). But after reading these posts, I think it would benefit Spock to at least know to be cautious what he says.

    6. Hillary*

      I’ve also been Spock, but the warning came from a teammate, not my manager. I’m usually pretty cautious, but the warning was appreciated.

    7. Blue Eagle*

      If Spock were just a co-worker, I would keep out of it and say nothing. But the situation definitely changes if I was Spock’s manager, I would definitely say something.

      1. PhyllisB*

        Me too!! I actually knew the Star Trek references!! I am totally clueless when it’s GOT or Hunger Games references!!

      2. Moth*

        I do want to clarify that the naming choices were nothing personal against DeForest Kelly or the actual character of McCoy on Star Trek, both of whom I liked very much!

    10. Moth*

      OP here, I really appreciate the input on this. I had been thinking of it from my perspective, that I didn’t want to come off as spreading gossip, but I hadn’t really thought about it from the side of Spock. But it seems like people who have been in a similar situation have appreciated the heads up. I’m meeting with Spock on Monday, before I head out of town for a couple of weeks, and I think that I’ll bring it up very briefly in that meeting, similar to the wording some have suggested. I’ll probably mention McCoy by name, so that I’m not beating around the bush, but will try not to be accusatory. Spock and I have a pretty good relationship and I think that he’ll be receptive to the input.

      I forgot to say that Spock has been unintentionally caught in the middle of some drama with McCoy once before. Scotty needed some help analyzing warp speed data that previously McCoy had assisted on, but had since said he would no longer help with because now that we have new engines, that data doesn’t matter anymore. But Scotty is still required to analyze it, so he asked Spock to help, since Spock had previous experience with that kind of data too. McCoy found out and ran to Kirk angrily, because he said that he should be the only one to assist whenever looking at warp speed data. Even though he had previously refused to help… Spock seemed to notice that McCoy was acting a little odd there, but I’m worried that McCoy is now trying to badmouth Scotty and others to Spock. I think (hope) that Spock is smart enough to see through McCoy, but am worried that because he’s so trusting (and because McCoy can be so wily), that he might end up saying something unintentionally that gets someone else in trouble. And since Kirk has looking for reasons to write people up lately, no one needs any help with getting in trouble!

    11. Djuna*

      I did that with a colleague, it was a quiet conversation where I mentioned that she may like to take anything our office’s McCoy said with a grain of salt. As it turned out, I just solidified the opinion she was already coming to on her own but she was still grateful for the heads up.

  7. Anon anony*

    For those who are older and work with someone younger, or for those who are younger and work with someone older, how do you bridge the age gap? Is it an issue?

    I’m female and I work with a woman twice my age and while I don’t mind the age difference, I think she does. I do my best to be professional and nice, but it is getting a little wearing especially since others work so well together.

    She’ll make comments about how she is friendly with another co-worker because they are “the same age” and she’ll talk down to me/act like my boss (she isn’t). She’ll talk about how great other people are, as if to make me jealous/upset, which she doesn’t do with anyone else.

    She also talks and tells her friends stuff, but not me. I’m social with her, but it’s a one-way street. I don’t need to know what she is doing, but I need to know if she isn’t going to be around because then I have to do her work.

    If I get told or asked something, she’ll get upset and ask why they asked me (instead of her!)

    Everyone loves her though, so I feel like I’m going crazy or maybe there’s some gaslighting going on?

    Has anyone dealt with this before? Any advice?

    1. PB*

      I’m sorry. I’ve been in your shoes, and it sucks.

      As much as possible, I’d try to let the social stuff go. People are office friends with people they want to. I would also advise trying not to take her talking about other people being great personally. She may not mean it the way it’s coming across.

      However, work-related stuff you can absolutely address. For instance, if you get stuck doing her work unexpectedly because she didn’t tell you she’d be out of the office, bring it up when she comes back. You can do it nicely, like: “Hey, Jane. Yesterday, I ended up missing lunch because I didn’t know you had a planned vacation day, and I had to cover the phones. In the future, could you let me know if you know you’ll be out of the office? Thanks. I’ll make sure I do the same for you!” (Even though I’m sure you already are; it will just put her less on the defensive.)

      If need be, loop in your boss, especially if they’re supportive, and if you report to the same person. I ended up having to do this, after trying to address the issue myself. I was actually higher ranked than the older coworker who was giving me grief, but she was trying to show me who was #1 and nitpicking my work and calling out “errors” that were actually her not knowing current industry standards. After patiently explaining, and having her tell me, “Well, just do it my way,” I brought it up with our boss, who put a stop to it. Things weren’t perfect after that, but I wasn’t going home depressed and angry any more.

      I hope things look up.

      1. PB*

        I also want to add, to echo commenters below, she’s a jerk and using age as an excuse. I’ve worked with plenty of other people much older than me, and it’s never been a problem.

      2. LKW*

        She probably feels threatened and this is how she protects her turf. It’s not normal.

        I work with folks older and way younger. I love it but sometimes I have to add odd assignments to their workload because of it. Today I told my report that by the end of the month, she was to have watched “Spaceballs” because she needs to understand my pop culture references.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      The coworker I am closest to has the same age difference to me that I have with my mom and it’s never been a problem. We get along really well.

      She sounds insecure. Your best bet is to remain strictly polite and professional in your dealings with her.

    3. ExcelJedi*

      No real advice, but this doesn’t sound like an age issue….it sounds like a bad colleague issue. Age just happens to be how she’s expressing her toxic self.

      I’d try to recognize it as her problem, not yours, and ignore it. If she gets visibly upset that someone asks you something instead of her, have you tried being direct and asking if she would give a different answer? That’s the only place I’m seeing where you could be direct about her behavior.

    4. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I think this is ridiculous and I am 50 and many of my co-workers are in their mid-20s. I am friends with my co-workers (we do things outside of work), so my call here is that this woman feels in some way threatened by you, because her behaviors seem calculated to build a wall, not a bridge. Are you in a new role? Do your roles overlap at all? It sounds like she is worried about “her pile” being usurped.

    5. Ruth (UK)*

      That sounds like a rubbish situation to be in, though I’m going to say I think it’s this particular individual being odd about the age gap, not something that happens between people because of age gaps in general.

      I’m in my 20s, and a lot of my main social circle are in their 40s+ and some 65+ (due to the age range being typically older in some hobbies I’m into). I have also worked with colleagues of a variety of ages, and never found age-difference to be a big thing.

      The one thing that comes up a lot, I find, is “you’re too young to remember [x]” or “you won’t understand [reference]” comments or just generally other throw away comments like, “you can’t have back pain / high blood pressure / etc at your age!” or just generally “you’re SO young” / “I can’t even remember being [my age]” type things. I usually just ignore these – depending on the comment, I might choose to shrug rather than laugh, but sometimes I’ll laugh, depending on the tone, etc.

      Other than that, my only advice when talking to people of different ages is to just talk to them normally. This goes the other way too, and if I talk to teens or kids, I just talk to them like anyone else, and it normally goes well.

      But it sounds like you’re already trying to do this, and so I think it sounds like it’s just this particular person who has some issues. I think unless you’re willing to actively call it out as something you’re noticing and want to discuss (eg. ask her about it when she says she is friendly with other co-workers because they’re the same age. Like, really ask her to explain why that makes such a difference for her, and discuss it. Or ask her why it’s a problem if someone asks you something instead of her) then there might not be much you can do, except shrug it off and continue trying to be friendly. Or just default to politeness if it makes it easier.

      And try not to let it get to you, which I realise is easier said than done, but it’s her, not you. (And if it impacts your ability to do your job, then maybe discuss it with your boss)

    6. only acting normal*

      It’s not you: your coworker has a weird ageism problem. I’ve got one colleague who is nearing retirement, and another who is less than 5 years into her career, I’m bang in the middle. We all sit near each other and we get on fine, perfectly “office-friendly” and mutually supportive, because we’re professionals and we don’t act like children.

      Stay civil and professional (as you have been). Document any work problems her petty games cause so you can’t be blamed.

    7. Bea*

      She’s the one who’s dropping the ball. You’re doing everything right.

      My mom has a younger manager and has never had issues with the age gap. She’s friendly and becomes close to anyone because she has me a little later in life and is generally just used to my age range.

      This woman seems insecure and rude because you’re younger. It happens. Just stay chill and either she warms up and sees she’s doing herself a disservice by not accepting a different generation can and will continue work with her.

    8. Sparkles*

      I don’t have any advice but to say that I feel your pain. I am in my mid 20’s and work with someone who has grandkids older than me. If I have to hear the phrase “Those d@!$ Millenials” one more time I might punch a wall. She has TONS of vacation time and she will just call off and not tell me so I have to cover her (we are a two-person department) I ended up asking my boss to email me when she plans to be off because she wouldn’t tell me.

    9. Badmin*

      I directly reported to a woman (EA) who was 70+ when I was in my early 20s. She drove me nuts at times with how she did things, gossipiness, assumptions about other people and technical skills but I tried to focus on what I really liked about her, she was always really generous with telling me to not put PTO when I would leave early, we had a lot of fun together when setting up for events, she always got me a thoughtful gift for the holidays, and I learned a lot from her in terms of how to operate in a professional setting (what to do and what not to do), how sometimes you just have to do things you don’t want to, how to get stuff done when it seems impossible, which I am forever thankful for. She also had GREAT stories from her career that I also learned from. She had a wonderful personality too. I admired her a lot and felt like I picked up a lot of “old school” skills from her, e-mail less, phrases to use, etiquette? etc.

      1. DorothyP*

        I had a very similar first boss. She had A LOT of opinions about my life that were not what I wanted but I did learn how to operate in an office setting and definitely re-framed networking, which I had always thought was “icky” but learned that it’s not about just looking for people who can give you what you want and more about cultivating relationships with people who are doing good and interesting work and expanding your understanding of the field that you’re in.

    10. Kate*

      Echoing others that this sounds like it’s just her hang up. I work with a man 15 years my senior (I’m a woman), and we get along great including just socializing at lunch because we have a fair amount in common despite the fact that he is a married father of two and I am single and childless. You can usually find common interests if you try (and I’m mean that for her because it sounds like you are trying to be friendly).

      I wonder if you can use her getting upset when others ask you questions as an opening to reiterate you are equals though. Like, if she asks you why they asked you instead of her, ask, “Why shouldn’t they ask me?” Or something like, “Because I was here and have those answers too.” Or something more graceful that I can come up with.

    11. WorkingOnIt*

      I’m having a wonderful time vicariously through Glass Door at the moment. My old company is getting decimated on the site, it’s satisfying and makes me feel (somewhat) better about leaving the company – although I’m back to the job-hunt. It at least makes feel that I wasn’t making it up and it wasn’t me. Company now has someone responding to all these comments – when the comments are actually dreadful – like really awful – feel like it would be better to not answer than have a pat ‘please talk to us, we value your opinion’ comment. Think you need to do way more like actuall tackle management! But bless glass door .

      1. WorkingOnIt*

        Sorry this was meant to be a new comment! Not about age at all (although that was an issue at company too.)

    12. Triple Anon*

      I think she’s just being a jerk. I would ignore it and keep my distance. If it’s affecting your work, say something to her about that stuff. If that doesn’t help, make other people aware of the issue. But limit it to cause and effect work issues and try to leave the social stuff out of it.

      But, about bringing the gap, I would try to find common ground. Ask her about things that cross the age gap – cooking, tv shows, gardening, stuff like that. Or respectfully ask her to share her knowledge about something she would know more about, being older. Sometimes people just want to feel valued and respected, and if you communicate that, they’ll be nicer.

    13. Anonforthis*

      I am in my mid-thirties and manage an internal-transfer direct report in their mid-fifties…who applied for my job but didn’t get it due to a. not having the required experience, and b. general behavior issues which I now need to correct.
      To say its awkward is the understatement of the year. My report definitely bristles at being told what to do and their behavior/work isn’t acceptable by a manager 20 years younger. I am pretending not to notice and am sure to treat them the same as anyone else.
      I do have to address a HOST of childish antics…from a 55 year old. These include…complaining, gossiping, cliquishness, bullying/excluding other employees, negativity/rudeness, lateness, and prioritizing socializing over meetings and work deadlines. Sometimes I feel like I run a day-care for the middle-aged with all the nonsense that goes on at this place!

    14. Not So NewReader*

      When she talks about being friendly with someone because they are her age, you can say, “Age doesn’t bother me, I have had younger friends and older friends at work. Age does not matter that much because I can always find common interests. I am sure as you and I go along we will find common interests.”

      I wish we had examples of how she acts like your boss. There are some situations that are clear cut. “Anon, you need to work on Task C right now.” You push back because the boss told you to handle B right now. “Jane, the boss wants me working on B right now.”

      If she comes up with something that you are unsure about, tell her, “Let me check with Boss about that. It sounds like an okay idea but I better clear it first.”

      If she talks down to you, “Jane, in the eyes of the company I am your peer. I am capable of doing the same work you do.”

      I would start this whole process by hitting the situations that are clear cut. You know you are supposed to be working on B and the boss will tell you to move over to C if necessary. OR You know how to print out a document and you do not need further explanation. OR If it’s directly a work related issue where she needs to share information with you in order for you to do your job. Hit these clear cut examples first.

      This helps because sometimes a remark or a request is murky, it’s in the funny gray area where who knows if she is being condescending or bossy or non-inclusive. If you just target the things you are sure of you will probably have enough to work with right there.

      You can work into this and find approaches for handling things that are in a murky area as you go along. OTH you might decide to just target a few repeat behaviors. “Jane, I know when my lunch break is you do not have to tell me it’s time to go on lunch every day.”

      You may want to befriend HER friend. The friend may not realize what Jane is doing and Friend could turn into your biggest advocate. “Jane, leave Anon alone, she KNOWS the flippin’ job.”

      It could be that your age reminds her that life is going past her, she should have done more with her life. She should be out ahead of where she is now. This is tough, because people do mourn the “should haves” and “could haves” in life. If you do by chance find out this the case, you can show her how she can genuinely help you. All of us, no matter what age, can usually find something that we do not do well. Maybe she’s good at X and you aren’t. Ask her to help you get up to speed. People of any age want to know their work is of value, this is a good thing to keep in mind that we all share this.

    15. aes_sidhe*

      I’ve been on both sides of this one. I don’t have an issue with the age gap either way, but the me being younger was an issue for the older colleague. She was admittedly not tech savvy at all, and she had been in the legal field as a paralegal for around 25 years. I’ve been at the same law firm for 11 years and have always reported directly to the firm president. The VP partner was working on a huge case (it was a national story) where a lot of documents had been produced by our client. Unfortunately, it’s he client used Mac while our entire office is Windows based (didn’t know it until the VP partner had me looking at why they couldn’t get the info off the external hard drive.) The older colleague that was the paralegal to the VP partner found out and got furious when she asked me what was going on, and I just said, “I’d rather wait until Dean (the VP partner) and Sam (who was the associate assigned to the case) gets back from lunch so I only have to go over all of this once.” It seemed like a totally rational thing to say. She started screaming and yelling, slamming doors/drawers, and stomped out of the office in a huff and wouldn’t talk to me at all. Thankfully, she quit not long after.

    16. Double A*

      I’m a teacher in my 30s and my aide is in her late 50s, and she’s previously been a teacher, though in a pretty different capacity. We have a somewhat strained relationship for a lot of reasons, and I’ve struggled with her being defensive about feedback and generally not internalizing feedback. Part of that is just how she is in this job (we work with a very challenging population and she just really doesn’t have the personality for it), but I’ve often wondered if my age might add a layer of difficulty in her accepting feedback or in taking cues from me.

      We had a tough but good one-on-one conversation about some of this stuff, and it’s improved somewhat. But since I’m kind of in a supervisory role for her, it both adds to the awkwardness but also means she needs to listen to me more. So I’m an advocate of direct communication. Maybe you don’t need to address her apparent ageism, but do address the things that are directly impacting you, like her not informing you when you’ll need to pick up her work.

      1. aes_sidhe*

        Thankfully, this woman quit, but I will say she got more abusive the closer it got to her last day. I got the impression she thought she could find a job easily, and she hadn’t found a job before she actually left. I don’t know what happened to her after she left. When my direct boss, who is probably the most oblivious human being on earth noticed, I knew I wasn’t imagining it.

    17. PhyllisB*

      Well, I’m on the other side of that equation. At 67, I am always the oldest one in any group I work with. This doesn’t bother me, but it gets a bit tiresome to tell people they don’t have to call me Miss Phyllis or Mrs. B. I don’t bother telling them not to say m’am because this is the South and that’s just part of the culture. I say it myself to others all the time, even younger people because it’s a way to show respect. Aside from that, most of the people I’ve worked with seem to like me, but I don’t act like this woman, either. And I am very careful not say “Well, when I was your age.” If there is a reason to reference that, I usually say something like, “when I was younger, you know, when dinosaurs roamed the earth…” this usually gets a good laugh and we have a productive conversation.

      1. aes_sidhe*

        Personally, I think she an abusive person in general, because she’d act the same way after talking to her son. I think a lot of her problem was used to being a bully, but I don’t play that at my age (39 and rapidly heading towards 40 at an alarming rate, ha!) The closer it got to her final day it seemed to escalate to the point I finally had a talk with my direct boss. He just said to keep doing what I was going and to remember she’d be gone in a few days.

        This lady was a replacement for the paralegal that, while we didn’t get along personally, we were at least professional and would willing help the other when needed. The crazy lady’s replacement is 30, and we get along great. It’s completely different from the other two, and it’s like a breath of fresh air.

    18. A Moose for Twos*

      Yeah, a couple of times actually. In each case it was an issue of them being really insecure about having to treat someone younger than them as a peer, which is just such a weird thing to get hung up about. I can’t really get my head around why so many of my coworkers over the years seem to feel compelled to keep the youngins in their place. I don’t really have any advice since this is all about them and their feelings, honestly, I’ve never found any approach to really make a difference.

      It’s continued into my 30’s and I can only assume it has to do with me being petite, which makes some people read me as being a good decade younger. Interestingly, only the people hung up on age seem to do this– my coworkers who are chill about it always guess 30ish for my age, but the ones who are weird about it always want to put me as a recent grad. I noticed I never get this attitude from people who work in different offices, thus not seeing me in person, so I can’t help but feel the appearance is part of it and also that the people who care are actually trying to size you up.

  8. Cynthia*

    I’ve been in my position for a few months now and today my co-worker showed me a job ad for a position that is similar to mine at another company. I think it was something that they found from job postings that they receive, but still….

    I’m not sure how to take it. Do they think I should leave? Do I look unhappy or something? Is this a bad thing?

    Any thoughts?

      1. stefanielaine*

        Yeah, the person to ask why your coworker showed something to you is your coworker. It sounds like she showed it to you, and was just silent, and then you were just silent, and then……nobody said anything? Just ask!

        1. Cynthia*

          I wasn’t silent- I said something about it maybe being a temp job and we had a little conversation. I then left to go to a meeting.

    3. PB*

      That’s weird. If it just happened this once, I’d let it go. Sometimes, people do weird things. If it happens again, you might want to address it in the moment. Maybe something like, “Thanks, but I’m not looking right now!” If she keeps doing it after that, I’d switch to, “I’m confused. Why are you showing me job postings?”

    4. Chaordic One*

      Have you been complaining about your job or the pay? The only way most people get a significant raise any more is by moving to another company (unless you’re happy with 2 to 3% annual raises). Maybe she thinks she’s doing you a favor.

      1. Cynthia*

        Things have been stressful, but that’s the culture. They all complain. I was frustrated with the work, but not to the point of saying I’m job hunting. I don’t know. I don’t know her well enough to know of her intentions. I like her, think she’s smart and funny, but she does have a snarky side so I don’t know.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      Yup, ask. Personally, I wish someone would send me some job leads so I can GTFO, but alas, I’m stuck digging on my own until god knows when.

    6. Delphine*

      It’s odd. I can’t imagine showing a coworker a job posting unless I knew they were looking. You should ask!

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      I wouldn’t read much into it. I sometimes pass along job ads to folks that I see on the professional list serves I’m on if they look like something they might like.

  9. Detective Amy Santiago*

    My professional life has been a bit of a roller coaster the past few weeks (but in largely good ways). Two weeks ago, I came to work on Monday and learned that my incompetent coworker quit. So that was a huge plus.

    Then, I started getting some results from my job searching. Since last Friday, I had a phone screen for Position 1, an in-person interview for Position 2, a phone screen for Position 3, and today I have an in person interview for Position 1.

    Position 2 is the one I’m really hoping for, but it’s just so exciting that things are finally happening.

    4. Maude Lebowski*

      Detective Amy Santiago, congrats on the new quit / leads, but did you see the ref to the Babysitter’s Club above?

    5. The Original K.*

      I’m in the same boat re: things happening with a job search! I had phone screens for Jobs 1 & 2 this week and have an in-person for Job 3 next week. Fingers crossed for you!

  10. LDP*

    So, I have reason to believe that my company is going to be under new management soon. I don’t know anything for sure, but my boss has given me a few hints, and I think that’s the “big news” she’s been referring to. For a little background, I work at a mall. It’s owned by one company, and they pay another to manage it. I’m technically employed by the management company, not the owners. So, I’m a little nervous that I might get laid off in the next few weeks. Does anyone have any advice? Any tips on what you wish you had known before getting laid off? I’ve never been through anything like this, and I’m trying to get my ducks in a row the best that I can. I’ve only worked here for about 8 months, and my entire job history before that has been internships, so the thought of going through the job hunting process again is incredibly daunting. Thanks in advance for any advice!

    1. Alternative Person*

      My contract unexpectedly didn’t get renewed (after orally agreeing a new one but that’s a different story). Update your CV now and start trawling job boards. Sock away any additional cash you can if possible. If health insurance is a thing for you, get any essential prescriptions/check ups done ASAP. Research what the process is for unemployment benefits.

      Keep in mind though, you might not get laid off, so don’t feel pressured to take a not good job because you’re worrying. Take your time and do your research.

      1. LDP*

        I spent most of last night updating my resume, thank you for reminding me about insurance! I’ll make an appointment with my doctor today to get that squared away.
        I’m trying not to stress about it too much, because I know it may not even happen. The one thing nagging at me is that my job history right now would look really spotty since it’s just short internships and now this job that I haven’t even been at for a year. My hope is to stay here for about two years before moving on, so I’d hate to jump the gun and start the application process prematurely.

    2. Tmarie*

      I worked for that company, at a mall, for twenty years. My property was an under-performer so when it was sold, we were all laid off. BUT, if what I know about that company is still true, they have already sold off under-performing centers, so your center is probably a top performing center. Not knowing what job title you hold, I think that you are probably fine. The new company is still going to need the center to operate post acquisition. So, just hold tight and hope for the best, IF you actually enjoy the job you do.

      Best wishes.

      1. LDP*

        It’s nice to see there’s someone else from the property management world! :) If the gossip I’ve heard around here is true, it’s more that the company that owns our property and the management company have some bad blood between them (mainly due to who has final say over how things are run). So, it’s not based on performance. The company that the rumor mill says they’re bringing in to manage us already has staff on site here (we have office towers attached to our mall), so my concern is that they’ll do a clean sweep and put their people in here. I’m just a marketing admin, so pretty much the lowest person on the totem pole around here.

        1. Tmarie*

          And marketing is always treated poorly in that company. Yeah, I’d update my resume, lock down some references. Sorry!

          1. LDP*

            Well, I’m glad I have at least some sort of heads up. Guess I know what I’ll be doing this weekend. I think the worst thing is that right now my productivity at work is completely shot. I’m feeling so unmotivated to work through my to-do list if I won’t be working here much longer. :(

            1. A Worker Bee*

              I understand feeling so unmotivated to work through your to-do-list if you won’t be there much longer, but please don’t give into that since you may need a good reference from your current manager. Good luck whatever happens!

        2. Marcel*

          Your phrase is inaccurate and incorrect. The low carving on the totem pole has higher honour than the ones on top. It makes no sense what you wrote.

          Also, the totem pole is a scared thing to many Native groups and throwing it around in such a phrase is offensive to us, especially when it is used in an inaccurate context.

          1. Alicia*

            I had no idea that this phrase was incorrect! I’ve heard it for years in many different contexts (business and otherwise). Thank you so much for sharing and clarifying.

    3. Hillary*

      I worked property management briefly years ago. The management company is still there even though the property’s been sold multiple times. It’s pretty rare that a new owner, especially an REIT, will want to change management companies in the short term. Contracts usually stick with the property, not the owner. It never hurts to polish your resume and save up some cash if you can, but try not to worry.

      1. LDP*

        That’s good to know. My issue is that the owner is firing the management company (supposedly). Which is what makes me worry. But almost everyone else here is acting like “business as usual”, so hopefully it won’t be too bad. But I’m still nervous.

    4. Pinky*

      I got laid off completely unexpectedly last year, less than a year after I’d been promoted into that position. (I was the main person who handled inquiries about treatment options at a patient advocacy nonprofit, so I was pretty blindsided when they told me they were eliminating my position.) I got some severance and was able to get unemployment, but the last time I was jobless it took me a year to find employment, so I was pretty upset and anxious.

      What I wish someone would have told me is that, especially if you don’t have a ton of work experience, temp agencies are your best friend. A month after losing my job, when my severance was just about to run out and I hadn’t heard anything back from any of the jobs I’d applied to, I started sending my resume to temp agencies. Within two weeks they found me a temp job that, two months later, turned permanent. At the very least, a temp agency might be able to find you a job that tides you over until you find something better on your own.

      1. LDP*

        Temp agencies are great! I worked with one way before I got this job. I’ll definitely reach back out to them if I’m having trouble finding something on my own!

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Cosign temp agencies. I was even sent on marketing admin interviews through a few of them in my city after I graduated college, so LDP, you might want to look into that avenue as well as a backup plan.

    5. Q*

      Back up anything you have saved to your work computer that you would want/need after you are gone. This includes contact information for people you work with/for. You haven’t been there long but if you have a lot of personal items on your desk, start taking them home or cleaning them up. When I saw my layoff coming I made sure there wasn’t anything at work that was important to me or that I couldn’t replace. (When you were laid off, you were escorted to the door by security. You did not get to go back to your desk. They were well known for not bothering to pack and send your belongings until months later.)

      And even though you see it coming, it will still come as a bit of shock when you finally get the news.

      1. LDP*

        My one question with not being able to go back to your desk after you’re let go, I understand that from a safety type of standpoint, but I can’t take my entire purse with me into every meeting. And that’s where I keep my car keys, so I couldn’t leave the premises without that…I’m mainly just curious with how that actually plays out, since I’ve never been around when anyone’s been laid off, so this is entirely new territory for me!

        1. Tmarie*

          Although you’ve only been there less than a year, if they lay you off, there will probably be a severance package, and an end date given. I had four weeks notice and enough time to empty the center of all collateral that mentioned the original company name, plus I had time to read, review and sign paperwork about the severance. On my last day I turned over my keys to the maintenance employees who were staying on.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          I had a coworker recently just get laid off after coming back from vacation. My company let her go back to her desk to get her purse and coat, box up her personal items, and then they told her they’d mail her her box (they did). Her manager also made sure her coworkers weren’t around when she was let go so she wouldn’t be embarrassed.

  11. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    People who have done:
    ~AmeriCorps
    ~Peace Corps
    ~Teach for America
    I want to hear all about it! Pros, cons, stories, warnings, tips, etc. (Thank you to hermit crab for inspiring this curiosity in me about these programs!)

    1. vista alum*

      I did AmeriCorps VISTA June 2015 – June 2016. My advice is to make sure you do your year of service in a program that has lots of other members to connect with and hang out with. Also, be very careful with money – I ended up getting into some debt because the pay is so low. I ended up getting hired in the office I did my year of service in full-time, and I attribute that to going way above and beyond my VAD (the description of your job) I did work for more than my direct boss, took over duties of someone who quit, and volunteered to go out and table at events.

      1. Grayson*

        Is there an age limit on it? Would you recommend it to a mid-career professional looking to transition to an early-career position that has academic knowledge but lacks field experience? (I’d be shifting from military/security consulting to peacebuilding, which is a goal of mine anyways.)

        1. vista alum*

          Nope, no age limit. I worked with someone who had retired from one career. It really depends on the program, for example, my sister absolutely hated her experience in a different city. I would look into programs that have a lot of support from a VISTA leader and a great boss in the actual office placement. Also, make sure you are capable of living on about $800 a month. It sounds like you might be looking more towards the Peace Corps, which is pretty different than VISTA, though.

    2. AK*

      I was a NYC teaching fellow (other cities also have programs) and this entitled me to also be an AmeriCorp member my first year. NYC teaching fellows is similar to TFA in that they take people who don’t have an education background and train them to teach. The NYC teaching fellows also paid for most of my Masters (I paid 6000 dollars over 2 years) which ensured I would have a teaching license after 2 years. Something to keep in mind for teaching fellows is that they do not guarantee that you get a job the summer after your training, you need to go out and find a job. There are plenty, so it isn’t too hard, but it is something to think about. In TFA they help find you interviews,, but you are required to take the first job you are offered, whether or not you like it (this was true at least 6 years ago when I started). Also- with TFA you don’t have any control over what city you are in (really) If you are interesting in teaching, I recommend NYC teaching fellows. I felt decently trained by the time I started in my own classroom. Good luck!

    3. AMK*

      I’d also recommend looking at NYC teaching fellows (or teaching fellows in general). I wrote a long post, that didn’t manage to post and I don’t have time to re-write it all. But I really thought it was a great program when I did it 2012-2014.

    4. RPCV!!!*

      I did Peace Corps in West Africa 2011-2013! I was an agricultural volunteer in a hot and humid village with no running water… but got electricity about 1 year in (game changer). It was the best and worst and most important days of my life. The program has been revamped since I served, and I think it’s for the better. Volunteers now have access to 3G/internet connection and smartphones are a thing. Even in 2011-2013, cellphones were just becoming a necessity in the program and we were strongly advised to not flaunt our wealth aka electronics.

      Pros: once in a lifetime experience, awesome friendships, changes your whole world, learn how to work with a completely different culture and language, learn incredible patience, and a sense of freedom that I don’t think I’ll ever have again in my life. 5 years later and I still rely on my experience for my current job in int’l development.

      Cons: It’s really hard, especially if you’re a woman. You might have a job that obligates you to work a typical schedule like in the US. You might have a job that has no structure and you end up reading over 200 books over the 2 years. You can get really sick a lot. And, it’s really hard. Did I already say that?

      Stories: oh boy do I have many. Find your local RPCV group (Returned Peace Corps Volunteer) and ask that question (and plan to spend about 5 hours listening to poop stories).

      Tips: It’ll be hard to go in without any expectations. I’d say have the expectation that your expectations will never be met. Try to go with the flow and enjoy yourself. Check in with yourself every three months to see if you’re happy and if you want to stay. The people who came in with the expectation to work! And save babies! And have something to do! All the hours! Do all the things! were the ones that were very let down and ended up quitting. It’s more of a cultural exchange experience than a work experience (unless you are teaching).

      Peace Corps likes to remind everyone that flexibility is key, a sense of humor is essential, and a good attitude will take you far. I agree.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Our exit training explicitly spelled out, “When you return to the US, your most recent bowel movement is not a normal topic of conversation with colleagues.”

          1. Julianne*

            Those stool sample tubes were the worst. I will not share how I managed to capture my sample.

    5. TCO*

      I did Lutheran Volunteer Corps, which is a service year program with some similarities to AmeriCorps (and at the time, provided AmeriCorps education stipends). It was a great experience. I work in nonprofits, and my service year (which I did right after graduating college) gave me a great start to my career. It’s a common path into nonprofit/government work and I have many, many friends who did various service year programs. I felt like I got to do work at a higher level than what I would have done in a more traditional entry-level job, which gave me a leg up when entering the job market after my volunteer year.

      For me, one of the most appealing but most challenging aspects of my service program was that the volunteers all lived together in intentional housing communities. It meant that my program was immersive–I didn’t just go to my job and then live the rest of my life free of my program. My program offered a lot of support (housing, mentoring, retreats, and a supportive community) but living in an intense situation with roommates you didn’t choose can be really tough. I grew a lot but it wasn’t easy.

      I highly recommend service-year programs but they can be tough financially. Be really honest with yourself about your budget as you consider one of these programs. Can you afford your expenses (phone bill, car insurance, rent, etc.) on your volunteer stipend? Are you willing to give up on financial luxuries? Do you have savings or family support in case of a financial emergency? Are you willing to apply for and receive food stamps (some programs expect this of their volunteers, mine didn’t)? Can your student loans be deferred? Each program is different, so if one program doesn’t work for your financial situation another one might.

      The Catholic Volunteer Network has a great searchable web directory of domestic and international service programs, and their list includes programs of non-Catholic and non-religious traditions despite the network’s name.

      1. einahpets*

        Former Jesuit Volunteer here! I also appreciated living in a community house with other volunteers… most of the time (heh). In our city/region, we’d also connect with other volunteer groups + other jesuit volunteer houses for retreats / cheap (super cheap) parties when we could.

        And yea, we joked that within the first month we were living the real world motto – “when people stop being polite, and start being real”. In our house, we had all just graduated college and were new to this city + working pretty intense community service jobs.

    6. Another VISTA Alum*

      My advice would be to choose your organization/position carefully, as this seems to really make or break the experience. You will be scraping by on very little while your coworkers/managers/everyone around you are working a regular job, and that can feel crappy if they are not supportive and if the work is not fulfilling.

      I did AmeriCorps in 2016 when I was a more recent college grad, and I would definitely say it helped kick-start my nonprofit career and gave me many more options. However, I could have achieved the same result through other means–it just would have taken longer. For example, I could have started in an entry-level position and worked me way up to my current job, and it would have probably taken 3-4 years, but I’d be paid a living wage for those years. It’s important to weigh the pros and cons for your individual situation. I’d also hoped that I would be making more an impact in my community during my service, but it’s hard to tell if an organization is truly doing meaningful work from the outside. If you work a regular job, you can leave and find a different one. In a year of service (at least with AmeriCorps VISTA), you are stuck at your organization and if you leave, you give up your education award and have basically wasted the time you spent already.

      I also agree with the other alum about choosing a program with other service members to hang out with. It’s key in not feeling isolated during your service, and those social connections can last for long after your year has ended!

      I also accrued some debt during my year. When I was renewing my lease halfway through my year of service, my apartment building give notice that they would be raising my rent by over $250/month–but I made so little that I was unsure if I’d even get approved for a different apartment (I live in a very competitive rental market, and they always look at how much you make).

      When I didn’t give notice in time (they only gave me 3 days to decide if I could afford it), they automatically renewed my lease at the higher rate, and even charged me a month-to-month fee! It was basically a $1,800 bill for not being able to be sure that I would find another place to live. This is just one example of how being poor begets being poorer. Be prepared and if possible, have some savings going in so that you’re not worried about how you’ll handle something like this.

      1. Future Homesteader*

        Yes, choose your organization carefully! I did two years of AmeriCorps and they were radically different. The first time around, I had no support from my office and not enough work to do and it sucked. The second time was more like being at camp, but I was already a good four years older than everyone else and I was really ready to get into a real-world job, so I didn’t enjoy that aspect at all. That said, they were both great experiences in that I learned to be flexible and how to deal with all kinds of bosses, coworkers, volunteers, and community members.

    7. the gold digger*

      I joined the Peace Corps as a business development volunteer in Chile after I got my MBA. Professionally, it was the most interesting, most fun job I have ever had in my life. I was the business adviser to a co-op of about 140 indigenous women who wove and sold their traditional textiles. My charge was to increase their (or create some!) profits. I helped some and learned a lot, but their business model – where the employees of the business were paid (from a grant from the Inter-American Foundation) regardless of sales – was not a good long-term one. I wanted them to be able to survive on store revenues and that never happened.

      The negatives were that

      1. I was cold all the time. All. The. Time.
      2. It was very lonely. I was in a city of 250,000 people, but the Chilean women I would meet at the gym or wherever had known all their friends since kindergarten and they weren’t looking for new friends.

      I would totally do it again, though, and have suggested to Primo that maybe we join the Peace Corps when we retire.

    8. Ingray*

      I was also a Peace Corps volunteer in West Africa but in 2003-04. I had a horrible experience and quit after 6 months. But the thing about the Peace Corps is every country has its own administration and can be run pretty differently. We had some volunteers in our group that had been evacuated from another country due to troubles there and their experiences there were vastly different. Even though my experience was difficult I did learn to have an entirely new appreciation for a lot of little things we take for granted in the developed world and I hope to carry that with me for the rest of my life. The bad experiences I had there also help keep things in perspective for me now.

    9. GD*

      My sister was an AmeriCorps VISTA right after undergrad and ended up leaving early because of how severely underutilized she was (a gentle euphemism for literally had no work to do)– it wasn’t a decision that she took lightly, either, since she was so excited to be in the program in the first place. I’m not sure how much of a two-way street the application process is but I’d echo what’s already been said in making sure that the position is a good fit for you– which might include asking about what previous VISTAs have done/management styles/office environment, etc.

    10. Former TFA Corps Member*

      I did TFA in 2010, and had a positive experience – I’m still in the field of education, though in a slightly different capacity now. More than 50% of the people in my cohort are still in the classroom, and many are in other education-related gigs. Looking at your list, it seems like you may be interested in social justice, or helping-people-and-communities, broadly speaking. As a program, TFA has a very specific mission. I’d spend some time reflecting on whether you’re also extremely passionate about that mission, because teaching is a tough gig and some days you need a larger purpose to sustain yourself (and also, they’re pretty good – but obviously not perfect – at weeding out applicants who don’t care deeply about expanding educational equity). When I was thinking about my role in the world, I realized that many of the issues that I wanted to address all come back to issues of education, so TFA was a good fit. So that’s what I recommend for you; spend some time finding patterns in what you care about, and then spend some time learning about how these organizations can support your work in that area.

      1. Double A*

        Yes, I was going to say, if you’re looking into TFA, please actually be interested in teaching/educating, and not just “helping underprivileged youth.” Teaching requires extensive professional skills, both in terms of content knowledge and behavioral management. The training will not prepare you for the job (I don’t think any teacher training really does), and the first year of teaching is a meatgrinder even if you’ve been through a full training program.

        1. Julianne*

          +1000 (maybe more)

          Honestly, don’t do TFA if your current goal is anything other than spending the next ~5 years in the classroom. Preferably more. The only thing career teachers have less patience for than TFA-types who are solely there for a two year poverty tour on their way to some other career is administrators or instructional coaches who came into those roles straight out of TFA.

          1. Anon TFA Alum*

            I disagree with this advice. I think being passionate about teaching and educational inequity is a prereq for having a successful TFA experience, but I don’t think wanting to stay in a classroom for 5+ years is.

      2. Bay Area TFA*

        Also an alum, from around the same year and still working at a school in the community I was placed, and I agree with this and the folks below. Only thing I’d add is to research the sustainability of the regions you preference–some are potentially getting closed in the next few years, which impacts their credentialing partnerships, the costs, etc. And speak to alums and current teachers, not just staff members–sometimes they have outside motivations for painting a rosy picture of what the experience is like.

    11. Falling Diphthong*

      Peace Corps. Pro: Gets you out of your comfort zone, in a way that will make future endeavors easier. (For example, I used to dread public speaking. Now if I can do the public speaking in English, it’s no big deal.) Cons are along the lines of culture shock and how easy it is to feel isolated–two years can feel long if you’re lonely. (We would bond instantly to random Americans (PC from other countries) we found in the market and invite them to come stay with us, and had it happen to us when we traveled.)

      A friend did Teach For America and found it similarly really positive and a way to give herself a lot of new challenges.

    12. LizB*

      I did AmeriCorps for two years. It ended up being a great stepping stone into my current nonprofit career; I was in a program and site where I was wearing a dozen different hats and really growing my skills in several areas, so I had lots of impressive accomplishments to talk about when it came time to interview elsewhere. A few tips:

      – If your program will allow it, apply for food stamps. In many cases they calculate your living stipend with the expectation that you’ll apply for assistance, and having that extra grocery money will be super helpful if you’d like to eat non-frozen vegetables on a regular basis. (Also, some farmer’s markets take EBT!)

      – Your education award (the chunk of $ you get at the end) will be taxed as income in the year you use it, and you can’t use any of the money from the award to pay the taxes because it has to be used for education expenses. They didn’t tell me that until near the end of my first year, and I wished I had known earlier so I could have been more strategic and saved up to cover the extra taxes.

      – Take advantage of all the professional development and skill-building opportunities you can. My program paid for ten months of life coaching for all participants through some deal they had, and that was super helpful for me in figuring out where I wanted to go next to my career and in building my confidence.

    13. Gene Parmesan*

      I did Peace Corps in 2004-2006. It has changed quite a bit since then in terms of the application process–now you are able to select what country and job you want to apply for. When I went, you just took what they gave you. I worked in Uganda in education and HIV/AIDS prevention. I *LOVED* my volunteer experience. I’m so glad I did it.

      Pros:
      -Get to travel and experience another culture from a deeper perspective than as a tourist
      -Looks great on a resume
      -Do work that makes a difference

      Cons:
      -Huge lifestyle adjustment that requires lots of planning (storing your belongings; arranging to pay income taxes and get absentee ballots to vote abroad, etc.)
      -Health issues–everyone gets gastrointestinal illness at some point; may have to take malaria prophylaxis long-term

    14. Ann Perkins*

      I did an AmeriCorps affiliated program through the Catholic Volunteer Network the year after I graduated from college in 2009 and loved it. There were very few jobs at that time and I didn’t want to do grad school, so it was a great way to get some real world experience before entering the work force. My advice:
      -Vet the organization thoroughly. I do know of people who have done volunteer programs and it was nothing like what they were told it would be and it was awful.
      -Be realistic about finances. You need to know what the organization covers and what you’re expected to cover. The one I did was one of the more generous ones – we got room and board, could use donated supplies like toiletries, use of a car and were on their car insurance, health insurance, and decent paid off time. The monthly stipend was $350 but really my only bill was my cell phone bill. It really skews your perspective of money though when going out to eat is literally your entire day’s net pay.
      -Know yourself and really think about what you’re looking for. Do you want to live in a house with 8 people and have a strong sense of community? Would you rather have your own apartment and guaranteed down time alone every day to recharge? Do you want to teach, do grunt work, travel, social work…? Figure out answers to those questions and it will help you narrow down what you’d like to do.

    15. persimmon*

      My AmeriCorps experience was really very similar to having any other kind of entry-level professional nonprofit job, except that the job wouldn’t have existed without AmeriCorps funding. I definitely would not have been interested in a rah-rah vibe, co-housing, etc., which exists for some AmeriCorps sites but definitely not at others. Working at that nonprofit was a great opportunity, and those experiences, where I had a lot of responsibility, have remained a good talking point and resume item years later even though I’ve switched fields. I worked in a rural area, which was a little isolating at times, but made the stipend relatively livable. I also found the job through Idealist, which is much easier to navigate than the barely-usable AmeriCorps website, and does have a number of AmeriCorps postings.

    16. Lindsay J*

      My cousin did Teach for America and she didn’t have a great experience.

      She felt really overwhelmed and undeprepared for the actual realities of managing a classroom day-to-day. I think she envisioned it being like a movie where the kids were tough at first, but then she would win them over and come around and they would fall in love with her at the end and she would help them achieve all their goals.

      And that’s not reality. The kids were tough, and remained tough. Even for some of the highly motivated ones, they had so much crap going on in their lives outside of school that the reality was that they weren’t going to be able to go to college or do anything other than work a job in the town they currently lived in. Enforcing rules was difficult because the kids parents didn’t have time to care that their kids were in trouble, or enforce discipline if they did care because they were working two or three jobs to make ends meet. It just seems like (for her) it was all overwhelming and bleak and depressing and she was happy when her term ended.

    17. The Strand*

      Three of my closest friends did do Americorps. I cannot emphasis enough: the pay is staggeringly low.

      In the case of one friend doing social work in a major US city – all of the Americorps people at one job lived together, because they couldn’t afford a place otherwise. It was very intense for my friend. She could never leave the rough environment where they were living and working, and never really leave the people she was working with. She was very burnt out that year.

      Another friend worked in a rural area with a lower cost of living. She was able to rent a decent house with roommates and get some time away from the work, which she loved.

      I would strongly suggest if you go this path, you read the Reddit on Americorps. Then you learn a lot about the potential placement. It’s not unusual for some of these to be super low-paid jobs in disguise.

      The Peace Corps has long had issues with rape and sexual assault.

      1. hermit crab*

        Yeah, I will note that the key reason an AmeriCorps placement would be feasible for me (while living my current, expensive city) is that I’m married and my spouse makes a solid income. That stipend wouldn’t go far enough otherwise.

    18. No to TFA*

      I did TFA for the summer training and quit before I went to my site. They don’t support you enough in the training where you get assigned a class to teach for summer school with some other new TFA people. They sort of throw you into the classroom to learn as you go which really sucks for the students. Most of what we learned during training outside of class was about race and social issues. Which, while important and valid considering the cultural makeup of our student populations versus the TFA staff, was less helpful when you consider that we still didn’t know how to teach.

      Because you aren’t an employee of the school during the summer, you aren’t allowed to know what’s on the IEP’s of your students even though you are the one teaching them and your teacher ‘supervisor’ is never in the classroom with you. How am I supposed to teach someone who needs special instruction if no one is allowed to tell me what that should look like?

      Also, they don’t pay you for teaching the summer class which felt illegal then and even more so now that I work in HR.

      1. No to TFA*

        Hit submit too soon.

        Also, some of the people in my cohort were really terrible. Some of them were great and I’m still in touch with some of them and they love teaching and found TFA great. But there were some people in my cohort who bullied one of the other teachers to the point that he quit. Not the kind of people that should be in a classroom and TFA didn’t take it seriously enough.

      2. TL -*

        My best friend is a teacher and she has similar feelings about TFA. She did a combined undergrad and 1-yr masters in education, multiple student teacher placements (observations through leading a 6-week period over two or three years), lots of work on social justice issues, classroom management, and a degree in her subject matter.

        Her first year was hard but it was doable – she was learning how to flex and use the skills she’d be taught, not trying to reinvent the wheel. And she works in a school that is specifically focused on getting at-risk youth into college so her students can have some terrible home lives.

    19. Julianne*

      I served in Peace Corps in Southern Africa in the early teens, and overall I had a great experience. I was/am a teacher, and served as an education Volunteer, teaching English and math (and also running the library, and sometimes teaching art and girls’ PE) at a small village primary school about 90 minutes from the nearest town.

      PROS: Met my husband (fellow Volunteer). Got to work in my desired field, applying skills I brought to the Peace Corps, while also learning tons from my colleagues. Got to travel extensively in Southern Africa. I now teach ELA/ESL to predominantly African immigrant students at a public elementary school in the US (although no students from the country where I served), and I do think my Peace Corps experience helped me get hired and helps me in my current job. I also got a full tuition scholarship for my Master’s program, and while it was not specifically earmarked for RPCVs, I do think my RPCV status made me a more competitive candidate for scholarship money.

      CONS: The loneliness that gold digger mentioned. It was often strange being in such a different life stage than the men and women my same age in my village, and while I did form many wonderful and meaningful relationships, it was just…different. My best relationships were with people 30 years older or 10 years younger (AKA the students at the village high school, who saw me as a cool young-ish adult since I did not actually teach them). Also the malaria prophylaxis, although at least in the country where I served (big ol’ desert), they have a much more sensible policy on that now compared to when I served. Also, there was very limited transportation between my village and the nearest town, which made banking and just getting away from it all (which you need sometimes!) challenging. Internet access sucked and still sucks in my country of service, but I had my first non-flip phone in Peace Corps, so I had a warped view of what appropriate mobile technology looked like, even back in 2009.

    20. Kuododi*

      DH was Peace Corps in Liberia back 87-89 as a fishery volunteer. He really enjoyed the time and would go back now if it weren’t for life circumstances here in US. He was in the primary rain forest with no running water, electricity and a pit latrine. He SD he took the posting to find out if career missions was for him. He found an interesting situation bc while he was there he was able to experience the locals true opinion of missionaries in his area vs opinions of Peace Corps volunteers. He did have to deal with health care issues…he told me he had medication resistant Malaria five times during his stay in country. All in all he stayed a full tour and felt it was a pleasure to be in Liberia serving as a volunteer. (Actually, fwiw… foreign missions did not happen for him as a full time area of service. He’s now in healthcare and bioethics.).

      1. Julianne*

        Liberia! One of my very good friends, who did Peace Corps Response in my country of service, was an RPCV from Liberia and works in development there now. I hope to visit one day!

    21. nep*

      Peace Corps, three years (1997-2000)
      Pros and cons will, of course, vary from person to person. I love my solitude and it was a huge adjustment to live among villagers and be around people far more than I normally would.
      You’ve got to take into account your state of health and how comfortable you are with limited access to a medical facility for long stretches. This could affect where you should be stationed (region of the world, and whether remote/rural or urban.)
      During PC training and just getting started, think of it as having a two-page job description, only half of one page of which is filled out. The rest won’t be fleshed out till you get to the community where you’ll be working and spend some time with the people.
      This goes without saying but I’ll say it: Rid your mind of any inkling of an idea that you’re going to ‘save’ a community or anyone.
      Spend most of your time listening to the locals. Quiet. Watch. Listen.
      Keep us posted — let us know if you pursue one of these.

      1. nep*

        (Also — don’t think you are at the mercy of PC administrators in the country. As you might have read or as others have mentioned, management varies from place to place and PC is far from perfect in how it runs things. If something doesn’t feel right, speak up, make noise, look out for yourself.)

      2. Femme d'Afrique*

        “Rid your mind of any inkling of an idea that you’re going to ‘save’ a community or anyone.
        Spend most of your time listening to the locals. Quiet. Watch. Listen.”

        Thank you, THANK YOU for saying this.

    22. PCV*

      I’m a current PCV in a Pacific Island country. My service is very different from what I expected as I live in a big city and work an office job. I have a lot of comforts in my site (internet and phone, electricty, water and a hot shower, refrigerator).

      I am very happy with the work I am doing although it’s tough to find a counterpart and build capacity when my co-workers are either already highly motivated and effective or they just aren’t and aren’t going to change.

      My work will look very good on a resume. I am not worried about transitioning back to work after service. However, some PCVs will struggle to be able to “tell the story” of what they did for two years.

      Cons: Peace Corps has lots of policies for safety, security, medical, etc. which some people chaff under. I personally don’t struggle with this but I’m a rule-follower!
      PCVs who live live that village life have an entirely different set of stuggles than I do.

    23. A Moose for Twos*

      I did AmeriCorps and as others have said, where you go really determines whether it’s great or like… A massive exploitation fest that you will deeply resent. Mine was the latter, and I’m really not sure how I could have predicted that in advance. I honestly generally recommend folks to avoid it overall, as a huge portion of the people I know who have done it had a pretty bad experience and I get the feeling that the negative places are a lot more common than the ones that will be worth it. That might not be an entirely fair assessment, but it’s the feeling I came away with.

      They also lied to me about how the money was going to work when I started, and when I left I ended up not getting the final loan repayment stipend thing I was promised initially because of it. I’ve heard of similar stuff happening to other people so uh, I’d suggest checking any details about that with AmeriCorps directly and not just the organization you’ll be working in.

    24. GuitarLady*

      Late to the party, but in case you are still reading these:
      I did Teach for America in 2005-07. I would not recommend it at all, and in fact I am now a fairly vocal opponent of the organization. For the most part, its full of privileged white people with basically no training pretending to teach kids who desperately need far more from their teachers than the average kid, and miserably failing at it, then leaving and using it as a resume builder. And for people who truly do want to dedicate themselves to becoming excellent teachers in high-need areas, there are far superior organizations or paths to do that than TFA. You get six weeks of training by teaching an hour a day in summer school with almost no supervision or feedback, and then dropped in a classroom with even less help to sink or swim, mostly sink.
      I can’t say I regret doing it, it was certainly an eye-opening and very character building experience, but I think its very unfair for these students to inflict 22 year olds with a white-savior complex on them when what they really need is a good solid teacher.
      I was in the organization prior to the big crash, so I don’t feel quite as bad because there was a huge teacher shortage in the district I taught it, there was an open position in my department all year that was filled by a long term sub, and there was also an opening all year in the science dept as well. Things changed though after the crash, with cutbacks in education spending and teachers losing their jobs, TFAers are now taking jobs from actual teachers.
      TLDR, if you want to be a teacher in a low-income area, find a program that gives more training and is meant for at least a 5 year commitment, not a 2 year drive by tour. If you don’t want to be a teacher for the long-term, find another avenue to do some good.

    25. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      Thanks all! You’ve given me a lot to think about.
      I was hesitant to include Teach for America on this list, and I think I can eliminate it as an option for me based on this feedback, but maybe this thread will be useful for someone else who’s looking into TFA.
      Nep, I’ll keep you posted! :)

  12. Gaia*

    I’m officially looking.

    The thing is, I’m part of a huge project and I’m the only one even remotely trained to do my job (and it isn’t something you can just document and someone can pick up) and my work is really closely linked to the success of the project. If my work isn’t done really well we just wasted 2+ years and $100m+ for a product that will fail and fail quickly.

    But I just can’t do this anymore. I’ve been working 70 hour weeks and I get a lot of appreciation and recognition and everyone knows what I’m doing to get the work done. But I told them I needed help and I got told no and….I just can’t do this anymore. I’m exhausted.

    But I’m also concerned what it does to my reputation to leave before the project is done (the project has no end date right now. It was supposed to finish a year ago. Right now, we’ll be lucky if it is done by December. This is how these projects go).

    Any advice on how to navigate this?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Well, for starters, this is generally Not Your Problem. Remember that. If you got hit by a bus, there would be no one there with your skills, right? Leaving for another job– or just leaving– presents the same scenario to them.

      However, I know that’s an easy thing to say. The whole asking for help and being told no is, to me, a HUGE factor in this. You want to do good work, you want to present your best self, you have asked explicitly (I assume) for help, and they told you no, so now this is on them. If you have a good relationship with your bosses, I would ask for help again and explain that you either need help or some time off because you’re stretched. If they still tell you no, then that tells you what you need to know about how much they truly value you. Because yes, the work has to get done, but it has to get done by someone who is not at the end of her rope.

      And take a day off (or two or three) if you have the days available.

      1. Gaia*

        Luckily available days off are not a problem but workload precluding taking them is. As it stands now I work 12-14 hours Monday – Friday and at least another 10 – 16 hours each weekend. And that is just to keep my head (barely) above water.

        I was very explicit in asking for help. I was clear that to meet deadline X we need Y resources and I am Y – 4 other full time people. And that is assuming I continue at my current pace (which I’ve been doing for 2 years). I was told no because of Reasons (legitimate reasons but short sighted). For the first time in years I actually cried at work. I’m just so freaking tired.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          Let things slide. Don’t work such long hours. If stuff doesn’t get done, it doesn’t get done. Your employer has decided that they don’t want to properly staff your project, and that decision will impact the project. As AvonLady (above) says, it’s not your problem.

          1. Jerry Vandesic*

            And with the time you are freeing up by not working long hours, use it to aggressively look for a new job.

        2. zora*

          “I was clear that to meet deadline X we need Y resources and I am Y – 4 other full time people.”
          Then you need to MISS that deadline. Seriously.
          You can’t tell them that and then kill yourself to meet the deadline anyway. Then they have no reason to fix the problem. You need to stop working after 8-9 hours, go home, and let the deadline be missed. They will not fix the problem until you make it their problem.

    2. Seriously?*

      If possible, you can try to give a long notice period so that they have time to hire someone else. It sounds like your job would be secure enough to do this. However, when it comes down to it, people quit or become ill or die and companies need to have a plan in place for that. If an expensive project will fall apart if you leave, then the company is at fault for not having a contingency plan in place. You have told them that you need help on the project so it isn’t as if they are unaware of the issue. If your industry is generally full of reasonable people no one will blame you for leaving before completing a project that has gone on for two years with no end in sight.

    3. Alternative Person*

      If you haven’t already and you have time, start making notes/manuals so whoever inherits it has something to go on.

      The most important thing though, is to remember that you are doing your best with the tools you have to hand. If it fails, its on the company for not doing their job in supporting you.

    4. CatCat*

      Just keep very professional on the things that you can control. When you find something new, give whatever is the professional standard notice period for your level in your industry.

      It’s not on you that your current employer has not provided adequate resources for your project. 70 hour workweeks are just not sustainable for long periods of time and you asked for help and were denied. It *shouldn’t* be a shocker to your bosses when you put in your notice (though many people are willfully ignorant when the writing is on the wall in big letters).

      If they’re the kind of people who would try and trash your reputation because you did the normal act of moving on to another employer while providing a professional level of notice, then they were probably always going to be terrible. You move on and keep performing at a high level at your new employer because that is what you can control.

      1. Gaia*

        To be fair, I don’t think they would actively trash my reputation but it would be a big thing in my industry to leave during a project like this. It happens but it usually means you were “encouraged to seek employment elsewhere” or you ran when things got tough.

        1. designbot*

          In the design/construction industry, it wound definitely raise some questions and people would flat out ask “wow, what made you leave in the middle of (giant project?”
          But it would be a totally fine answer to say, “Well unfortunately my area of the project was severely understaffed. I’ve spoken with the leadership several times and they are unwilling to change that. I can’t keep doing the work of five people, and ultimately that’s why I’m here talking to you.” You might even add something like, it’s really important to me to do a great job and I want to find a firm whose management and staffing supports that.

    5. MRK*

      I think you need to go back to your mangers and be extremely blunt. As in “I either need help with this work immediately, or I need to be removed from this project. I cannot continue to work at this level.” And I would put together the hard facts for this:
      You have been averaging 70+ hours for the past X weeks (or months,or nights/weekends/holidays, make it clear this isn’t occasional overtime)
      At earliest estimate this project will not be done before December.
      Your work is a critical element of this project (and it sounds like you do want to do it well despite the stress.)

      But it sounds like you are at a point where this is no longer a negotiation, you need help and they either must provide it or they won’t have you. Period. I don’t think anyone reasonable will hold “leaving a project that is months-years over schedule with no end in sight” against you.

      1. Mrs. D*

        This.

        Your request for help wasn’t unreasonable, yet they denied it. Now is not the time to mince words. Make sure they understand that either things need to change (and what changes need to happen), or you’ll be gone.

        You NEED to take care of yourself since they are not looking out for your best interests (or your health). This kind of stress takes its toll on you physically and mentally. For your own well-being, please don’t wait until the constant exhaustion leads to worse health problems or illnesses that keep you from working. I am also someone who gives 1000% at work, so this was a hard lesson for me to learn too. Please, please do what’s best for YOU.

      2. zora*

        And after you say that to your boss, you STOP doing the extra hours. I’m serious. I know it seems crazy where you are right now, I have been there. But IT IS POSSIBLE for you to just stop where you are at 6pm and go home. No, really. Stop at the end of Friday and go home and turn off your phone. Don’t look at email until you come back Monday morning. You can tell people you are going to do this if it would be a hardship on others to be surprised, but this is your only option right now.

        You have a mental block where you are right now. But if you just put down a hard boundary and stop the extra hours, things will start to back up and they will realize how unsustainable this is and figure out what they need to do to fix it.

        You have nothing else to lose at this point, you are already thinking of leaving which will cause the same outcome. So, do this now, and maybe they will fix things. And if they don’t fix things, then you leave anyway.

        I have been in this situation and seen others in it, and there are only two ways this can go right now. 1) You completely burn out and fall apart (possibly end up in the hospital) or 2) you put down boundaries and the powers that be realize this is actually their problem to fix. I have never seen another option, and #1 is the most harmful to you. Don’t let that happen, take care of yourself.

    6. rubyrose*

      When interviewing, when asked why you are looking, just be honest. Tell them you have been working 70 hour weeks for xx weeks on a project with no end date, have requested help and it has been denied. No one in their right mind will fault you for that.

    7. Q*

      Do not let yourself feel guilty for doing what is best for yourself. This is 100% their fault. You asked for help and they said no. With a project this big you should have 2 or 3 back ups who know the same info as you and can perform the same as you. What if suddenly tomorrow you were no longer available to them?

      Some people like to use the “what if you got hit by a bus” argument but I prefer the “what if you won a hundred millions dollars” version. What if tomorrow you won a hundred millions dollars and said peace out, suckers?!?!?! They’d have to deal with that so they can deal with you giving two weeks notice.

    8. In Todd We Trust*

      Your employer will throw a fit worthy of the best 2 year old around. Why, it’s not because they love and value you. It’s because they can no longer abuse you. Give them a reasonable amount of your time and use the rest to prepare your exit strategy. If the project fails, it’s because they failed to put the proper steps in place.

    9. A Worker Bee*

      I echo what Seriously? already said: “If your industry is generally full of reasonable people no one will blame you for leaving before completing a project that has gone on for two years with no end in sight.”

  13. GG Two shoes*

    Ok, I need some help.
    The TLDR is that I’m at a loss of how to give feedback to an employee who shuts down or gets upset.
    Earlier this week, an event planning committee started an Olympics week. The ‘events’ are 5-10 minutes and each department needs to play, this wasn’t unexpected, we do things like this occasionally and emails have been sent. The first event was for everyone – I won’t say mandatory but strongly encouraged by management. When I said we needed to be in the lounge at 3:30pm and to be prepared to stop working for a bit she: rolled her eyes, crossed her arms and said wasn’t she going to play. Another employee convinced her to but then she threatened to walk out and then ‘joked’ about not coming into work so she didn’t have to participate. She did it, but she clearly wasn’t happy about it. That’s fine, it’s not everyone’s cup of tea. However, I wasn’t thrilled with her attitude with this and another couple of assignments I’d given her recently that she had responded to similarly. I decided to let her cool off and talk to her about it the next day.
    The next day, I pull her aside and said, “hey, I wasn’t crazy about your attitude yesterday. I know you don’t like those events, but sometimes we have to do things at work we don’t like. Also, your attitude regarding X and Y wasn’t great. I need you to get on board with some things, even if you don’t see the reason behind them. I’d be happy to explain why we need them but I need you to keep your attitude in check. Can you do that?”
    Her response was to 1. Say she thought I was discriminating against her for making her play because she doesn’t want to and she shouldn’t have to. She said she has things from her past (of which I wasn’t aware) that make her not comfortable with this. I said that if she has a disability she wants to disclose that we can talk to HR (small company so also our boss) and see if we can find accommodation, or if she just wants to share what it is then maybe we can work on it. She refused. I said, this is less about the event than your attitude towards it. If you have an issue with something you can come to me and we can work about it but try to not have negative reactions like that because it makes the department uneasy and can lead to a toxic workplace. She said, “well F- it then, GG, just f-ing fire me since I can’t do what you want.” After talking her down from that, she went on to say that she doesn’t think she should have to do anything that isn’t her job. To which I responded that in her (and everyone’s) job description is a line at the end that says, “and other duties as assigned” which means that you do have to do them.
    This went so off the rails. I knew she’s be upset but I wasn’t prepared for this. I’m only a couple years into managing and one of the very few negative bits of feedback to ask her to keep her attitude in check was met like this. Most of the time she’s rather quiet, VERY, VERY good at her work, and we usually have a good relationship.
    How can I give her feedback without it going so off the rails next time?

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t think you can give her feedback. Manage her out. (frankly, if she pulls that f-ing fire me crap again, I’d take her up on it).

      1. Close Bracket*

        Don’t manage her out. It’s passive aggressive and a dereliction of your responsibilities as a manager. If you need to fire her, put on your big boy/girl pants and fire her.

    2. Murphy*

      I don’t think this is about your feedback style. From what I can see here, what you said sounds reasonable and her response much less so. Unless you find out what’s going on (and she doesn’t seem receptive to talking about it) I’m not sure what you can do.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you’re wrong for pushing her to do something that is not actually work related. She shouldn’t have to disclose her reasons for not wanting to participate. If it’s not an actual job function or duty, then it should be opt in.

      If she’s a good employee and you don’t want to lose her, you need to push back above you and support her decision not to be involved in these type of activities.

      1. GG Two shoes*

        I actually did push back and said she shouldn’t need to my boss (hope everyone who commented sees this). I agree, but I wanted to try to steer this conversation to the issue which was her attitude. If she would have asked me at any point not to participate I would have agreed, but her attitude towards it was really not great.

        1. SoCalHR*

          I agree GG- Employee shouldn’t behave like a child when they don’t want to do something. If its that serious of an issue, going to you ahead of time and saying “I’m sorry, but I really don’t want to participate in this” probably would have helped the situation immensely. And maybe she still could have gone down to the event to support it but when asked to participate you could have her back if pushed and say that she’s sitting this one out.

          1. GG Two shoes*

            That’s exactly what I was hoping for. All I want is for her to communication her discomfort without throwing a fit. I don’t think that’s unreasonable to ask of an adult. And in case anyone was wondering, we had known of these events for at least a month with weekly reminders. it wasn’t sprung on us at all.

            1. Mandatory Fun*

              Sometimes, though, even knowing about something (but only broad generalities) in advance doesn’t mean that one can be prepared for a reaction.

              For example, at my work place, they decided to do the MBTI with people certified to administer the test and then there was going to be a meeting in which we’d get our results and do exercises based on that. Now, I happened to already know my type, but I took the test (I am an INTJ, and my I is so strongly expressed that when the scale runs to 30 on the Introvert-Extrovert axis, I am a 30–I actually perceive weakly expressed Introverts). At no point was the subsequent meeting indicated to be an optional thing.

              Day of meeting, we go into the room, and find that they’ve re-arranged the furniture and put place-cards with people’s names and there is no switching allowed. The people administering the tests and running the meeting *know* my results (and all my other co-workers) and chose to place me in a seat which was pretty much dead-center of the room, and because the tables were put on a slant, you’d have to walk in a zig-zag path from the doors to my assigned seat. Then they tell us to write something about what we bring to the job on the back of our tent-card with our name on it. I am struggling with this, because everything that I can think of seems like a slap against some of my other co-workers (who are the type who do only what they *must* to avoid a PIP, and not one iota of extra). But I come up with something. Then they want us to, in turn, stand up, state our name and whatever we put on the card. I went from “not really happy, but I can get through this” to “OMG I am going to die”. Yeah, I had a full-blown panic attack right there in the middle of the room in front of everyone. I’d never had a panic attack before in my life. It was humiliating. They threw together some spur of the moment accommodations (let me sit on the edge of the room, instructed the people running the meeting not to call on me or require individual participation by *every* person present).

              So even though we’d known about the meeting part for a month, the actual event caused me to react in a way that I’d never anticipated would happen, and probably didn’t make me look like a mature adult. But I would have given *anything* to be able to control a few details about that event so that it wouldn’t have happened at all.

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I think you can address her attitude without trying to make her disclose a disability or potentially other personal information about why she didn’t want to participate.

          1. GG Two shoes*

            The disability part was more like, ‘oh I didn’t know. Do you want to go talk about that? we can maybe get you an accommodation if you need it?’ and then her saying no. I wasn’t pushy and I dropped it afterwards.

            Full disclosure, I DO have a disability that is disclosed (and she knows about) so my suggestion was more like, hey, we can make accommodations if you need and not like, “tell me why you don’t to do this.” I was just really shocked she said I was discriminating against her since I didn’t know she has a disability at all.

            1. Naptime Enthusiast*

              This clarification helps, I read your initial comment as “tell me what it is and then I’ll see if I can accommodate you”. Thanks for clearing that up, what you describe is totally reasonable.

            2. Arjay*

              If it were me, I guess I’d feel I shouldn’t need to request accommodations to not participate in the Olympics.

            3. Safetykats*

              I think it’s completely reasonable to mention the potential for accommodations in this way. I’m stunned at how often people think they can imply a disability or the need for an accommodation and will just get whatever they want – without actually going on record concerning their condition – and how often they are completely be evaluated by company medical, to determine the most appropriate accommodation. Frankly, I interpret that as a clear indication that they are just trying to game the system. I’ve never had anyone with a clear legal right to an accommodation balk at providing a doctor’s recommendation, or getting separate evaluation. I have had a significant number of employees demand accommodations that are completely inappropriate for the conditions they are claiming, or for any protected disability at all.

        3. Oilpress*

          I would confide in them. I would explain how I recognize their talent/skill advantage, and explain that is why I have given them some additional leeway to be different. But then I would ask them to repay that additional earned freedom by putting on a brave face on the rare occasion where I ask them to do something a bit superfluous to the job. Maybe on this occasion they can skip the semi-mandatory Olympics, but next time I ask them to participate in something, I’d like them to be their best charming self.

          Special people who think they are special really get off on the idea of being treated special.

        4. Thlayli*

          From your description of what was said, it sounds like she thinks you were telling her she had to participate in this event and would have to participate in similar ones in the future. It seems to me like that is where the attitude is coming from. Tbh I am on her side – if my boss was pulling the “other duties as assigned” to try to bully me into participating in a non-work event I didn’t want to participate in, I would probably have a very bad attitude to that, much more so than any work related issue. I’m perfectly happy to take feedback on my actual work and anything related to work, but no way in hell would I play nice and be all “yes sir no sir” if my boss was trying to get me to participate in some sort of sportsball for example.

          I think you should go back to her and clarify that she is perfectly entitled to refuse to participate in non-work activities. Then once you have that out of the way, at that point tell her that if you give her feedback about her actual work she can’t react by pulling the “well fire me then” card.

          I bet once you clarify that she will say that she would never give you attitude about actual work feedback.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This.
            Anything that looks like gym class I will fail at massively. It’s nothing I can really get a doctor’s note for on the spur of the moment. I was sick a lot as a kid and never did anything even near sports, never mind sports themselves. I am out beyond just “bad at it”. So anything like this is going to be nothing but pure embarrassment for me. The old me would have spent days crying and seriously considered quitting the job before the event happened.

            The mature me would tell you, that this is not something I am able to do and it’s well out beyond any skill set I have. I would wait for you to say, “Okay. Sounds serious. Let’s see if you can be in charge of cheering people on or something like that.” If I did not hear that AND given this would be a recurring event, then I would probably give notice.
            No job is worth it to me to go through this.

            I don’t agree with her f bombs and I don’t agree with her giving you problems about the work itself. However, a human being who feels cornered with no options, can be a pretty miserable human being. And they can lash out because their misery is so great. Mandatory fun can be hell on earth for some people.

            1. tangerineRose*

              Like you, I’m not that great at most sports, and I’d be very unhappy if I had to stop something that I was working at, that probably had some kind of due date, to show the rest of the team what a klutz I can be sometimes.

      2. Gorgo*

        Unless it is completely unreasonable, everything that your boss asks you to do IS your job.

      4. TL -*

        The employee could have easily smiled and said, “I won’t be able to participate this year but I’m happy to sit and cheer lead for the team and maybe organize snacks.”

        I sincerely doubt there would have been any resistance to that. It’s not the inability/not wanting to do the activities, it’s the attitude and not wanting to participate in the team spirit of the team building event.

    4. Enough*

      I don’t understand how this event comes under other duties as assigned. Why does she “have to” participate?
      I think you have 2 issues here. The attitude about things she doesn’t like and being made to do something that is not actual “work”.
      To avoid derailment you have to “ignore” some of what she says and stick to the behavior you want corrected. Acknowledge she is not happy but stick to being clear about the behavior she exhibits.

      1. GG Two shoes*

        It wasn’t the event that was commented towards other duties as assigned, it was X and Y.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m honestly not thrilled at your mention of a disability, or asking her if there’s something she wants to discuss with you so you can “work it out”. She doesn’t want to participate, and she told you there was something in her past that made her reluctant. That should have been the end of it.

      Her attitude is a problem, for sure. It’s not that she doesn’t like them, it’s that she shows everyone else she doesn’t like them, and she does it rudely. She’s allowed to be uncomfortable– we all are– but you want her to tone it down and suck it up for a day. That’s all. Please don’t try to see if there are underlying issues here. There likely are, but you don’t want to make her think she’s obligated to share them, because that will probably shut her down and put her on the defensive very quickly.

      1. GG Two shoes*

        Thanks for your feedback. I was really thrown with the disability comment and didn’t know how to handle it. I thought in the moment that trying to find an accommodation would be the best bet (this conversation happened the next day after the event so it was too late to change that situation). I am really trying to learn and my manager is pretty hands off so he just said to let it be and I wanted to get thoughts on it from you folks.

        1. Safetykats*

          I think you need to talk to HR about company policy and maybe read up a bit on the ADA. It’s not terrible – or disallowed in any way – to explain cmoany policy on accommodations to someone who has implied that they need one. And insisting that you can’t participate in office activities that everyone else is participating in, because of some mysterious thing in your past, is certainly implying a physical or mental issue that deserves an accommodation. The thing is, the ADA doesn’t require a employer to provide an accommodation just because the employee insists they need one. If a disability is obvious, like a employee with a prosthetic or a walker or wheelchair, you are expected to be able to figure out and provide reasonable accommodation. If somebody is implying a protected disability that isn’t obvious, or for which you couldn’t be expected to understand or know what accommodation would be appropriate, the ADA does allow you to require medical evaluation. So in short, employee in a wheelchair should get an accessible office without jumping through extra hoops. Employee claiming or implying PTSD or anxiety disorder or something not easily diagnosed by a layperson and for which reasonable accommodation might not be obvious, medical evaluation. This protects the company as well as the employee, because the best or most appropriate accommodation might not always be the one the employee is requesting. For example, I had an employee who had carpal tunnel surgery on both hands, and demanded a voice to text program for his computer so he could continue working. Medical looked at the situation and determined that in fact inability to type wasn’t his most significant or only challenge, and that short term disability was the best solution. After returning from short term he confided that he had completely overestimate his abilities just after surgery, and probably would not have recovered as quickly if allowed to return to work. But only a medical professional would really know that, so that evaluation was key to getting him what he really needed.

    6. Seriously?*

      You need to clarify whether it is mandatory or is not mandatory. What you are describing is not “strongly encouraged” it is mandatory. Forcing people to do things while saying that it isn’t mandatory is confusing and upsetting. So if it is mandatory then tell her she either needs to participate, talk to HR about accommodations or be put on a PIP. If it is encouraged, then accept her refusal and move on.

      1. GG Two shoes*

        Honestly I dont know. I was following orders but I did push back about making everyone participate in that ‘event’.

    8. Leave it to Beaver*

      She does sound toxic and it definitely sounds like you managed her calmly. But, I cringed a little bit when you suggested the two of you go to HR or she could tell you what the potential disability/issue is. Both options force her to disclose to you whatever her potential issue is, which may not be something she feels comfortable or secure enough to do. If she does have a sensitive issue that impacts her ability to participate in activities, I agree that you should definitely offer the option of discussing it with you, but you should also offer her the opportunity to discuss it with someone else or communicate it in an alternative format (perhaps a letter or email). Now, I have to admit, I don’t think she has a disability or issue, but that doesn’t mean it should be ignored and you were right to address it. But, the actions you suggested definitely backed her into a corner and regardless of whether it’s real or not, I’m not surprised she ended up getting aggressively defensive.

      1. GG Two shoes*

        I was really thrown with the discrimination comment, I wasn’t sure how to respond. I didn’t think I was being discriminating because I didn’t know what I would have been discriminating against! I will see if communicating in another format would be better for her if it ever comes up again.

        1. Double A*

          I think it’s totally fair when someone says they’re being discriminated against for you to explain that you’ll need documentation of the protected class they’re saying they’re part of and which they’re being discriminated against because of. In fact, if you HAD NOT offered to go to HR and document her disability when she said you were discriminating against her, then you could have been in some trouble, I’d think. The fact that she brought it up first puts you in the clear, the fact that she was pretty obviously BSing notwithstanding (I think she was conflating “This makes me uncomfortable” with “I’m being discriminated against).

          Invisible disabilities do need to be documented in order to receive accommodation, and if an employee refuses to document, then they it seems like they’ll have a really hard time proving discrimination.

    9. kbeers0su*

      Unless this is part of a larger pattern of attitude issues, I’d give her a few days and circle back around. It sounds like there might be something behind this attitude that you saw related to not wanting to play games (since you mentioned this was “recent”). And although you gave her the opening to discuss it (with you or boss/HR) she may not be comfortable doing so right now. I might suggest sitting down with her in a few days and saying something like “Now that we’ve moved past (Olympics event issue) I wanted to circle back around about my concerns with your attitude recently. This seemed out of character (if it was) and I wanted to see if you can help me understand your reaction.” Then listen and see what (if anything) she can say that might give you insight into it all. Perhaps there was a family issue or other stressor, or maybe she had a really traumatic experience at previousjob that involved an Olympic event or whatever. And then if she still doesn’t open up/offer a good explanation/context that helps you understand, I’d make it explicitly clear that this kind of attitude will affect her ability to stay employed and make it clear what you expect going forward.

      1. Lissa*

        Yeah….I know a lot of people are going to be on employees side here but regardless thus seems really not great to bring up discrimination in that way as well as the attitude in general…

    11. Amtelope*

      Her attitude is not okay, but on the other side of this, “this isn’t mandatory, but you have to do it” is a really frustrating message to recieve.

      Is it mandatory? Then say “This is mandatory and it’s part of your job to participate. If you can’t compete in the game, let’s find another way for you to participate.” Is it not actually mandatory? Then say, “It’s fine to sit this out, but be aware that we’re strongly encouraged to participate in events like this, so if you want to impress our bosses, it would be good to participate when you can.” But decide which is true.

      1. GG Two shoes*

        Honestly, I was told in the beginning it was mandatory, but then they made ‘subs’ available so it wasn’t clear to me either. I was frustrated with that as well and I pushed back on it, as I said in another comment.

    12. Lumen*

      She said, “well F- it then, GG, just f-ing fire me since I can’t do what you want.”

      This is so beyond the pale of what’s appropriate at work, especially with your boss. Whatever conversation you have with her later, bring this up and make sure she understands that sort of outburst is completely unacceptable.

      1. Kittymommy*

        This. Regardless of mandatory/not mandatory or “other duties as assigned”,this attitude is unacceptable and cannot be allowed to be repeated. Most of my job is other duties as assigned and I have plenty of things that aren’t “mandatory ” but I better be there and while I push back on some, swearing at my boss no matter hiwn much one is in the right, would get me fired on the spot.

      2. MuseumChick*

        THIS! I was trying to write a comment saying this but was so thrown that an employee with speak this way in the office I couldn’t put a coherent comment together.

        GG, I think you need to lay out basic decorum with this employee in and clear consequences for what will happen if the attitude continues. If she pushed back in a rude/attitude giving way you can say “This is actually exactly what I was talking about. No matter how frustrated you feel, which is a very normal part of the working world, this kind of reaction is not appropriate.”

      3. Fiennes*

        Agreed. Office olympics may be annoying, but there are plenty of professional ways to handle non-participation. Also, while this was the breaking point, GG tells us this worker has been showing attitude in other areas as well. Focusing only on the games thing doesn’t address the whole problem.

      4. LKW*

        This. The “I can’t do what you want” as I understand it, is to have a good attitude. Participating in a team event in the office or even watching a team event, shouldn’t be so difficult. And I expect that had she come to you quietly and said “Look, this sounds ridiculous but I really am not up for these activities. I’d prefer to not go into details but I hope I can get a pass on today’s activities.” you would have worked with her.

        Instead, she acted like a baby.

        So give her some time and then manage her out. She sounds exhausting and not a good fit.

      5. zora*

        Yeah, the Olympics event is beside the point, and everyone is going off track with that.

        You used great AAM language to tell her what you needed from her and she just clearly told you she’s NOT able to do that. She is not able to have a better response to things she doesn’t want to do, she literally said “I can’t do what you want.”

        I think the only option here is for you to manage her out. Maybe that is the wakeup call she needs. Don’t keep ‘talking her down’ that is NOT your job, you are not her therapist. I know it sucks to fire people and you say she does her job well, so that makes this confusing because it would be easier if she just sucked all around.

        But really, you need to go to her and say “I asked if you are able to be calm and polite and talk to me when you have problems instead of rolling your eyes and cursing and you told me you actually can’t do that. That means I cannot keep you in this position because that is what I need to have you work here. So, take a day to think about whether you are able to work on your anger and be calm when discussing problems. If you really aren’t able to do that, then I”m going to have to let you go.”

        And give her the day to think about it.
        She needs to really understand that this is literally about keeping her job. If you keep talking her down, you are undermining your own message about this being important. We’ve talked about it here before, some people need a huge thing like this as a wakeup call to realize they need to actually work on their anger issues.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Uh, respectfully, I think she know she is on the verge of losing her job and that is why the five-alarm fire behavior. People panic when they realize they are going to crash.

          Somebody has to calm down here. I think OP is the one rational person left in this story. Big Boss seems not to understand that if Fun is Forced, then it is Not Fun. It can be very hard to get people to open their minds to this concept.

          My suggestion, OP, is that you tell the boss people would rather be unemployed than go to Forced Fun. Maybe that is something he would understand. He may say, “Okay so what if she quits?’ Then you say,
          “And we will continue to see this, when ever we have Forced Fun, random people will chose to leave the company over the Forced Fun. If she quits, this is not the end of the story. We will continue to lose people over it.” I would call it Forced Fun also, because that is in my personality to say such a thing.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Sometimes people have bad delivery but a valid point. It is okay to break those things into two parts and address their bad behavior separate from the valid point part.

    13. CatCat*

      Well, first, stop forcing the non-mandatory mandatory Office Olympics on people. Stand up for your team on that and discourage team members from pressuring others who have said no. Clearly there is a nerve here that has been touched and the message on the non-mandatory nature is extremely muddled. “Team, if you’re not comfortable participating in Office Olympics, it is not mandatory so please just let me know if you’re not going to participate. Also, let’s not pressure one another on this so if someone chooses not to participate, don’t pry into that. Or if you want to participate, but not as competitors, I’ll work on making sure everyone is included.” (Examples of other participating, setting up the events, judging events, whatever else is entailed in getting Office Olympics going.)

      Second, the employee’s attitude is ridiculous though and needs to be addressed. It sounds like this was atypical of her given your description of her at the end. So recognize that there is probably Something Going On That Is None of Your Business in the employee’s personal background while still addressing the attitude issue. “Employee, I know you were very upset about the Office Olympics thing and I will be addressing participation in the events more widely with the team so it’s clear it is not mandatory. You really went off the rails when I had a conversation with you about your attitude. Cursing in the workplace is not acceptable and you need to be able to take feedback constructively and calmly.” I’d probably leave it there and let her process it.

      2. GG Two shoes*

        Thanks for the feedback. I want to make sure everyone understands who has commented that I was only following orders, I did push back about making it mandatory to my boss afterwards. It wasn’t clear to me beforehand that everyone from the department was expected to participate.

    14. theletter*

      It sounds to me like she has some social anxiety, and it’s the peer pressure from these weird ‘events’ that’s causing her to act this way. The mixed messages about whether or not this stuff is required is probably throwing her off.

      She’s not handling this well, but if I were in charge of these events I’d set it up so that they were clearly voluntary and there were no repercussions from not participating or just observing. If the event is supposed to be ‘a fun break from work’, there should be no punishment for, you know, continuing to do your work.

      1. GG Two shoes*

        I agree. and again: I wasn’t on this committee, had no say in this, and pushed back afterwards.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I think it would be important for any follow up conversation you have to include the fact that you did push back against the ‘mandatory’ aspect afterwards so she knows that you understand her objections and are taking them seriously.

        2. A day in the zoo*

          I am the first one to dislike (intensely) most team building or mandatory fun events. However, they are a part of many corporate cultures and even if there is an option of not participating, it could impact the employee’s career. It also could impact the manager’s career if her team opts out. Non-mandatory events on paper often are mandatory in reality.

          The issue here is the reaction of the employee, both on the day of the event, and after was so out of line. I had an employee who had behaved this way for years. When it was my turn to manage them, I told her the first time that if she volunteered to quit again, I would accept it on the spot and escort her out the door. Problem solved. She never did that again and the morale of the office improved as a result.

        3. Close Bracket*

          “pushed back afterwards.”

          You’ve noted this many times. I think a takeaway for you should be to push back *before* the event happens. You could not have anticipated any given employees reluctance to participate, however, as a general principle, you should be supporting your direct reports and pushing back on mandatory-non-mandatory events.

    15. Parenthetically*

      Two problems, as I see it.

      1. Her attitude is not great, you’re right. You addressed this aspect pretty well — I’m not pumped that you brought up a disability or tried to force her to disclose her reasons (you’re not her therapist, she shouldn’t need to have a reason beyond, “I don’t want to do this due to some stuff in my past, so I am opting out”), but apart from that, encouraging her to come to you with her concerns rather than reacting passive-aggressively or just aggressively was the right tactic.

      2. WTF is going on with semi-mandatory office olympics? No freaking thank you. Is this supposed to be fun? What’s the purpose of it? She’s most definitely going to keep pushing back on you if she sees you defending something stupid and trying to coerce her into participation, particularly when she’s said she has past trauma(?) related reasons for not participating. The fact that she’s freaking out to this degree when she’s normally a quiet worker who keeps her head down should be a red flag to you that this is a big, big deal for her. She’s willing to be fired over it? She’s cursing, physically demonstrating that she doesn’t want to do this? It’s such a nuclear option that I think it’s worth considering that this is something potentially traumatizing from her perspective.

      Go back to her. Say something like, “Hey, I want to revisit this because your reaction was so unlike you and I’ve realized that means this must be a pretty big deal for you. I don’t want to fire you at all, and I’m instead going to excuse you from participating in these events. If I get questions about it, I’m going to go to bat for you about it. I want to know what the problem is so I can help, but I respect your privacy. Just know that I’m here to help if I can in any way, and I hope we can get back to our normal cordial positive relationship.”

      1. GG Two shoes*

        I like your wording. I’ll be sure to add that. I’m so worried about followup with her (its been 3 days) I’m not sure how to address it. My boss said to leave it be, but honestly its so awkward in here now I feel like I should address it again, even if it’s going to open more wounds.

        1. Totally Minnie*

          I would say that it’s not necessary to have another conversation at this point. Let things cool down, and the next time an event like this comes up, let her see that you’re trying to make this okay for her and not allow your bosses to make her do things that make her uncomfortable.

          If you assign her another project that she doesn’t like and she reacts immaturely, then you can say “I understand that these aren’t your preferred job tasks, and you’re allowed to not enjoy doing them. But I need you to express those feelings in a more professional way.”

          I tend to tell my staff that I don’t think it’s possible to enjoy a job more than 85% of the time, because every job is going to contain things you don’t like to do. But that 15% still needs to get done, so it’s best to just power through so you can get back to the stuff you like.

          1. zora*

            No, this is the opposite here. OP has said that she has had an attitude like this to ACTUAL WORK TASKS. The Olympics event is a total side track and beside the point.

            Saying “I don’t want to fire you” is not good for a manager to say! It undermines any actual feedback and her need to actually do those things. If you are saying you’re not going to fire her then why should she listen to you?

            1. Totally Minnie*

              Was this the comment you intended to reply to? I’m not sure what it is you’re reacting to.

              1. zora*

                Yeah, sorry, I”m responding to Parenthetically’s comment saying:
                “Go back to her. Say something like, “Hey, I want to revisit this because your reaction was so unlike you and I’ve realized that means this must be a pretty big deal for you. I don’t want to fire you at all, and I’m instead going to excuse you from participating in these events. ”

                I think this is the opposite of the approach. It’s not really about the event, it’s about the attitude.

                1. Parenthetically*

                  I disagree. I think it’s about both event AND attitude — sighing is one thing, we all do it, but flipping out to this degree? That seems to indicate it’s a bigger deal.

                  “Saying “I don’t want to fire you” is not good for a manager to say!”

                  Maybe, under normal circumstances, but since she mentioned firing, I think it’s an ok response.

        2. Close Bracket*

          “even if it’s going to open more wounds.”

          Nooooo…..

          Who are you trying to help here, you or her? You are a bad boss if you are willing to open more wounds with your direct report to make your self feel better about the situation. If you talk to her again, it should only be because you want to close the wounds you opened *in her” in the first place. If you are feeling personally badly about her response, you need to address your feelings in another way.

    16. Trout 'Waver*

      What-the-what? Your work is big enough to have an event planning committee, but no formal HR?

      1. GG Two shoes*

        It’s all volunteer. the event planning committee was an underwriter, an admin, and a customer service rep.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          Right, but it carries such weight that they can make events mandatory with refusal resulting in grounds for firing. I don’t mean to be snarky, but that is really backwards considering you don’t even have dedicated HR.

          1. GG Two shoes*

            Whoa, no where did I say it would be grounds for firing! SHE brought up that she said I should just fire her! I was trying to give her feedback about her attitude toward this event and two assignments she had given me attitude about. If you get a chance, please read through my other responses.

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              I don’t mean to sound harsh, and I apologize if I’m coming across that way. But when you say:

              To which I responded that in her (and everyone’s) job description is a line at the end that says, “and other duties as assigned” which means that you do have to do them.

              You’re implicitly saying “Do it or you’re fired”

              1. GG Two shoes*

                I didn’t say it like that. I was paraphrasing a 15 minute long conversation. Look, she must have assumed something like that too since she told me to F-ing fire her then, but she should know that I would never do that. we have worked closely for two years. This is the first time we’ve ever had a discussion come together like this.

                I do appreciate you commenting as I need to have my views expanded, I can only see this from my point of view.

                1. IKnowRight?*

                  Yup. It’s unfortunate, but some people will take this to mean “do it or you’re fired,” particularly if they feel at all threatened by the conversation, which can happen even if you feel you are speaking in a non-threatening way.

                2. Not So NewReader*

                  I too would feel that my continued employment was threatened.

                  In toxic work places this is what termination threats look like, what you are talking about here. So while, in your work place this may not be a termination threat, she could have experienced it in other places. I know I have and I would definitely read termination here.
                  Additionally, the boss would coyly say, “I never mentioned being fired” in a sarcastic, taunting manner as if to gaslight.
                  Please understand, I DO get that this is NOT what you are doing here. I am just explaining a pattern that many employees have seen and are very familiar with. There is NO how, NO way that I think this is what you are doing. Nope-nope.

    17. LibbyG*

      I think you approached it well enough – provided direct feedback at a well chosen time and then listened to her.

      Perhaps the phrase “keep your attitude in check” was bothersome to her? That sounds like something people say to teenagers. Maybe it felt infantilizing? Her response was wildly inappropriate, regardless.

      Maybe you could, in the future, frame things as what *to* do rather than what to refrain from? It might be a meaningless distinction in this case, but maybe something more like, ” I need you to either raise a concern in a professional way or just honor the request.” I’m just spitballing here.

    18. LostInTheStacks*

      I can see why some of these things might be frustrating for her (I agree the disability suggestion isn’t great, and I would also balk at talking to HR if HR was my boss, and maybe someone who had endorsed the event I didn’t like)… but also, swearing at your supervisor and goading them into firing you is so out of line that to me, that kind of overshadows everything else.
      Has she seemed embarrassed about it? Or apologized at all? If someone reacts like that to getting feedback and doesn’t seem remorseful, I would no longer think it’s *your* responsibility to frame feedback in a way that keeps things from going off the rails. You may not have been perfect, but you were within the realm of reasonableness and she definitely was not.

      1. GG Two shoes*

        Thanks so much for the feedback. I am curious, if one of your employees said that they felt discriminated against because you asked them to participate in an event how would you respond? I was shocked and answered as best as I thought (trying to offer a solution) but I know it was the wrong one. I really would like help with this in case something like this happens in the future.

        For the record she hasn’t apologized. She hasn’t talked to me since that day. I haven’t had much reason to talk to her either but it’s been real weird. We sit close and it’s awkward.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          When someone claims discrimination, it’s time to switch from solution mode to listening mode.

          Also, you told her to keep her attitude in check, which is infantilizing. Then you doubled down by accusing her of contributing to a toxic work environment. Then you pulled authority on her with the “other duties as assigned” line. Pulling authority is the tool of last resort for a manager. Think about how you would feel if your manager said any of those things to you.

          From her point of view, she did the off-work task and is now getting berated because she wasn’t happy enough to do it. I’m not defending her unprofessional behavior though, which certainly was grossly inappropriate.

          1. Parenthetically*

            Yes yes yes. Couldn’t put my finger on it, but you said just what I was trying to figure out how to say.

          2. Yorick*

            I mean, some people need to keep their attitude in check. This employee is one, actually, since she swore at her boss during a meeting to receive feedback.

        2. LostInTheStacks*

          I’m not a manager, but I think if I were an employee, I would prefer for my boss to just say something like “what makes you feel that way?”, or “what do you mean by discrimination?”, something open-ended like that. Leaping to the idea that it’s a disability can come off blunt, and some people might shut down rather than disclosing information.

          Plus, because by asking an open-ended question allows her to give her definition of discrimination, whereas jumping to a single protected class [disability] might give the impression that you’re arbitrarily dismissing other forms of discrimination. Like, if she claimed she was being discriminated against and you said “is it because of a disability? if so, let’s talk to HR, if not, then just remember what I said and work on your attitude,” and it later came out that she thought she was being singled out as a woman, for example, it wouldn’t reflect as well on you. Whereas if you had asked her for more information and she had been unable to come up with an actual claim beyond “because I didn’t feel like it,” then the ball is still in her court.

          But it’s really not a huge issue, and on the face of it I think you handled it pretty well! These kinds of things rely on context so much; it’s the sort of thing where this would be another notch against a boss who was otherwise terrible, and would barely register for a boss who is otherwise good, you know?

          1. GG Two shoes*

            Thanks for the response. I hope I can react better in the future. Have a good weekend.

    19. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      GG, I want to be supportive of you, but I have a much greater concern with your roll in this than your employee’s reaction. I think you need to take a step back and reassess your role as a manager first before deciding on how to deal with your employee.

      First, your boss told you an office Olympics was mandatory and you went along with it without initially pushing back. I don’t know why. This isn’t an episode of The Office. Time wasters like an office Olympics are terrible ways to engage in team building. Then there was push back and the event became voluntary but strongly encouraged. As a manager, you have to realize that for many employees, mandatory versus strongly encouraged is a distinction without a difference when it’s coming from your boss.

      Then for an event that was truly mandatory, you let your employee’s coworkers bully the employee into participating. If it’s voluntary, it’s voluntary. You should have put a stop to the coworkers ribbing your employee to participate. Did they do this in your presence? If so, as a manager, being silent when your employees engage in bad behavior condones their conduct. Did you start teasing your employee as well about the office Olympics? I hope not.

      The employee’s poor attitude about the office Olympics was totally justified in my mind. But you then merged that office Olympics attitude discussion with appropriate and legitimate workplace issues about the employee’s conduct on previous assignments. Your timing was terrible. I believe you said this employee had really negative reactions to two prior assignments. The discussion about the employee’s attitude should have been after the second bad reaction and started with “is everything okay?”

      This then led to a discussion about a possible medical accommodation. In my office, we have a script for these discussions and bringing it up in the context of an attitude towards an office Olympics was not good. Besides, you said this employee was “VERY VERY” good at her job. Why does she need a medical accommodation from office Olympics but not an accommodation on her real work duties?!?

      What killed me was your response that “other duties as assigned” included things like an office Olympics. Which would make the event mandatory, not voluntary. And just because you pay someone’s salary doesn’t make them a toy you get to wind up for your enjoyment and send them around the office. Other duties as assigned doesn’t include things like Dunderball. Never in a million years. Legitimate workplace training is other duties as assigned.

      I think the first thing you should do is apologize to your employee about your own conduct. Give a sincere apology. And apologize for letting her coworkers bully her and that you shouldn’t have brought up her attitude or a medical accommodation in the context of a ridiculous office time waster, and that those things will never happen again.

      Only then can you work on your employee’s attitude issues. If you don’t start with your own apology, I guarantee the employee will be gone in 6 months. Are you prepared to lose a great employee over an office Olympics?

      1. GG Two shoes*

        I understand your concern for my employee, however, I will let my boss decide if I should be a manager. I think you made a lot of assumptions here. NO ONE bullied her. Not one person- there was NO ribbing. I would never accept that. I don’t know where you got that.

        If you had read my other comments you would see that the ‘not my job’ comment was about the other X and Y assignments, not this. I lumped this discussion together because I don’t want to micro manage her attitude and thought it better to address it all as one.

        I couldn’t do anything about the Olympics event at the time I was told it was mandatory and my boss is a VP. I would rather not loss MY job over this.

        I didn’t bring up the discrimination/medical issue. She did. She told me she felt discriminated against but wouldn’t elaborate. When I suggested we maybe talk to HR is needed she said no I dropped it.

        Again, I appreciate your concern here- it’s good to see how this could be interpreted.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          From your own words, you said that she set a boundary:

          rolled her eyes, crossed her arms and said wasn’t she going to play.

          Then another employee convinced her to cross that boundary. After which she joked about leaving instead of participating. This is textbook bullying.

          I’ll take you at your word if you insist. But please reconsider and take a closer look.

          1. Yorick*

            I don’t know how it went down but you’re making some strong assumptions. Another coworker could try to convince her to play without it qualifying as bullying. For example, kindly saying, “I think it’s fun, let’s be partners?” to someone who balks at doing an activity isn’t bullying.

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              It’s a soft line and definitely not black and white. But when someone takes a stand and you try to get them to change their position using social pressure, I think that falls under the definition of bullying.

              If someone clearly says no, and you continue to cajole them, then yes that is bullying.

              1. TL -*

                That’s…a rather broad and not widely accepted definition of bullying.

                Also, mandatory is mandatory whether or not you agree with it; the way to get out of something you can’t do is to pleasantly announce you cannot participate in X way this year but you will be happy to do Y instead (scorekeep, chearlead, organize snacks, help set up/take down.)

                The employee did not set a boundary. She threw a tantrum and it is unacceptable in the workplace to do so.

      2. Trout 'Waver*

        I agree here. It’s going to be much more difficult to address the other issues because now this employee is going to feel that she is being singled out for resisting participation in the office Olympics, even if the other concerns are separate and valid.

    20. LilySparrow*

      From some of your replies it sounds like the conversation blurred together actual job duties (x and y) with this supposedly non-mandatory Olympics event.

      She wasn’t expressing her frustration in a professional way – not at all! And it looks like professional communication in general is a big problem for her.
      But I can certainly understand how she felt.

      I’m trying to imagine myself in her shoes.
      1) Management and my peers are pressuring me to participate in a non-work activity that I deeply want to opt out of, but don’t feel I can without repercussions.

      2) I try to show up and get through it, but am not successful at hiding my discomfort, and make some last-ditch efforts to get out of it, which wind up just making everything worse.

      3) My manager takes me to task for my inability to fake enthusiasm for this supposedly non-mandatory, non-work related activity.

      4) I try to express that I have serious reasons for my feelings about this activity, without violating my privacy.

      5) My manager asks me to prove I have a legitimate reason to dislike the thing that supposedly isn’t mandatory and has nothing to do with my job performance, by escalating the situation to HR/the big boss (who is presumably the source of the pressure in the first place).

      6) I don’t want to do that, so my manager starts taking me to task about my “attitude,” including my general demeanor when I perform different job functions, even though I am a very high performer.

      Yeah, I certainly am not going to feel that expectations are clear and reasonable here. And I’m super-duper not going to feel that I can come to my manager to discuss problems without backlash.

      1. GG Two shoes*

        Thanks for your feedback. I disagree with your assessment of a couple of items, but since you weren’t there and are only relying on my account I can only fault myself for that.

        Have a good weekend.

        1. Safetykats*

          GG, I just want to say that I think you made the best of a bad situation. As a manager, I don’t think that suggesting talking to HR is necessarily a threatening thing, as their job is to help work out these kinds of issues. It looks like some commenters think a suggesting to involve HR is tantamount to threatening to fire someone, but it’s not. If I felt like my boss had made some kind of meeting or activity mandatory, and I had staff who were apparently over reacting about that, I would absolutely get HR involved. In fact if I didn’t, I would likely be told I should have. You’ve had a lot of suggestions about how to deal with this employee going forward, but I think once she alleged discrimination you have really no choice but to involve HR, for your own protection and the company’s. I would absolutely talk to them before you re-engage with employee in this issue, and maybe request that they be present when you do.

          1. A Worker Bee*

            You say “If I felt like my boss had made some kind of meeting or activity mandatory, and I had staff who were apparently over reacting about that, I would absolutely get HR involved.” But GG has already said in her initial comment that it’s small company so HR is also our boss, so now do you see why “It looks like some commenters think a suggesting to involve HR is tantamount to threatening to fire someone” (your words, hence the quotes)?

        2. LilySparrow*

          Like I said, I’m trying to see it from her point of view. Obviously her POV is radically different than yours, or you wouldn’t both be confused and irritated by each other.

    21. Yorick*

      Other responses are focusing on the mandatory aspect of the event, but there’s more to it than that. If she’s rudely pushing back about doing actual work, that’s a big problem. I think you should talk to her again but this time, focus on the assignments that she had an attitude about instead of the event.

      1. zora*

        This^^
        I think everyone is getting sidetracked by the legitimately confusing event situation. But she should not be cursing at her boss and she should not be getting an attitude about work tasks she is assigned. That is the part you should be focused on.

    22. doubtful*

      I have to disagree with a lot of the comments here. I don’t think you did anything wrong.

      1) Work “morale builders” are totally normal, often annoying, but generally mandatory. Relaying your boss’s order that she attend was totally appropriate. Ideally stuff like that would be voluntary, but in reality it rarely is. If the event was disturbing/painful for her (as opposed to just annoying), she should have spoken to you about that beforehand in a professional way. Going and then having a bad attitude was inappropriate.

      2) It was also totally normal for you to inquire what the issue was, since you can’t help her to avoid a problem in future if she doesn’t give you some idea what her concern was. If the issue is that she has back problems than you can take that into consideration if physical activities are ever proposed in future, likewise if the issue is anxiety about public speaking, you’d take a different tack, which would again be different if the problem is some religious objection.

      3) Her reaction was way over the top and entirely inappropriate. And it sounds like it was intended to (and did) put you on the defensive. You shouldn’t have to talk someone down from swearing at you. She was in the wrong, not you. Alison actually has a bunch of advice on how to deal with this sort of thing, including this:

      “Managers sometimes worry that they can’t address attitude issues as straightforwardly as they would performance issues, but you can and you should. In fact, you should frame it exactly the the same way you would a performance issue — “what you’re doing is ___, and what I need is ___.” Just make sure that you’re specific about what she’s doing that needs to change (as opposed to just labeling it a “bad attitude”). For instance: “Part of what we need in this role is someone with a cheerful, can-do attitude and a willingness to hear feedback. That means I need you to be pleasant to coworkers, participate in meetings, not roll your eyes or otherwise be dismissive when people talk, and be open to discussing areas where I ask you to do something differently.””

      I’ll try to post the link in a subsequent reply.

  14. soscrescentfresh*

    Tiny, tiny thing. But normally for birthdays in my office, colleagues decorate your cubicle and sign a card, and the boss gives you a bottle of wine. (Or similar non-alcoholic beverage if preferred.) It’s my birthday and I just rolled up to find no decorations, card, etc. No one said happy birthday as I passed them. I’ve been here almost a decade and this is the first time my birthday has been overlooked. Fingers crossed something pops up while I’m away from my desk for lunch? Womp.

    1. Seriously?*

      Can you mention to someone that it is your birthday? Maybe talk about plans you have later that are birthday related?

    2. stefanielaine*

      Is there something going on with the person whose job it is to keep track of birthdays? Anything else going on to make you think it might be personal as opposed to just an oversight? If not, I might suggest telling someone it’s your birthday so they can get something together for you/not miss it again next year.

      1. socrescentfresh*

        We have a written rotation of whose turn it is to circulate a card and decorate the birthday person’s cube. It’s possible the person “assigned” to my birthday forgot to look at the sheet.

    3. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      I’d say it’s way more likely someone forgot or dropped the ball than that it’s a deliberate oversight, particularly since it’s been celebrated for a decade before now. If you casually mention to a colleague your birthday plans that evening or something then – at least in my office – there would be a scramble to arrange things and much facepalming backstage for forgetting.

    4. Kathleen_A*

      I was left out one year, too – it was because I had a new supervisor and mostly new co-workers, and a lot of these things are supervisor-led in my organization. That really wasn’t a perfect excuse since birthdays are listed a couple of different places, but…eh, I figured missing one year wasn’t a big deal. That doesn’t mean it’s a nice feeling, though, so I definitely get while you’re feeling a bit forsaken.

      1. Arjay*

        This was me this year. I’m sort of in between managers right now, and I’m definitely an individual contributor awash in a sea of teams. Usually another team adopts me for potlucks and things, but my birthday was ignored this year. Worst part is that it was on a Saturday, so when nothing happened on Friday, I thought it might happen on Monday. I’m fb friends with some coworkers who wished me a happy birthday on Saturday, so they were aware of it, but Monday passed without cake too. I really like cake.

    5. SoCalHR*

      Its not a tiny thing – there was a whole post on it yesterday! My birthday was last week and it did get acknowledged but not in the same way others’ do and so it felt a little disappointing as well (i.e. furthered the HR-is-no-fun vibe). Hang in there and HAPPY BIRTHDAY fellow Aries!

    7. Applesauced*

      Hey – it’s my birthday too! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
      It’s weird for me because I’m hoteling at another branch of my company this week, so no one knows

    8. Bea*

      I’m literally writing a birthdays procedure up. I came into the job and got half a days training. Birthdays were mentioned but not covered in terms of how to proceed. I’ve been a wreck and dropped the ball twice this year. Then had to retool with my boss because we were doing something not acceptable per tax laws.

      I’m so sorry this happened to you and sincerely hope it’s an oversight. Happy Birthday!!

  15. Leslie Knope*

    I’ve been working in an administrative role at my current company for about three years. My company is small (only about 12 employees) and I have taken on a lot of extra responsibilities over the years. About a year ago I received a title promotion from coordinator to manager, and I now manage my company’s finances and am about to take over management of our intern program.

    I really like my job and (for the most part) I enjoy what I do. However, my biggest gripe is that I work at a reception desk. While it is often quiet here, during busier times the doorbell is ringing a lot and we have many visitors going in and out of the office. When meetings end, a lot of people will stop right by my desk and have conversations (literally while hanging onto my desk) on the way out. This is really distracting when I am trying to focus on certain tasks (such as reconciling our books or making important updates to our financial records!). I’m also not keen on being up here once I start managing our interns because I feel like there may be situations where I need to talk to them one-on-one.

    My boss is aware I would like to get away from the reception desk, and about a year ago mentioned they would have to think about it. At the time there was nothing they could do. We currently have two vacant offices and I would really like to move into one before we hire new employees. We will probably be hiring new staff soon, and the good thing about my organization is that there is some flexibility with the roles, so an incoming newbie could potentially be assigned to the receptionist desk.

    I am at the point where having my own space is becoming a must-have for me – especially if they keep handing me more responsbilities. I want the responsibility, it’s just difficult for me to focus sometimes with all the distractions. There are times when I am so distracted by what is going on around me, and I desperately wish I had a door I could close to drown out the noise and activity. How can I better advocate for myself to make this move happen? I don’t want to come across as whiney or entitled, but this is really important to me and I feel like if I am going to continue to do my job well, a move to an office with an actual door will help tremendously.

    1. Tara S.*

      If reception duties are not actually part of your job, and there are two offices currently open, and you haven’t brought it up for awhile, now sounds like the perfect time to bring it up. You have a lot of the arguments already there: it’s hard for you to concentrate while doing things like reconciling books with all the distractions, your boss already said it was a possibility, you feel the move would help your performance. I say go for it! Good luck!

    2. AnonEMoose*

      Assuming you have a good rapport with your boss, why not go to her and say some version of what you’ve said here? Pared down a bit, of course. But something like: As we’ve discussed in the past, it’s now very difficult for me to be based at the reception desk due to a) my need to concentrate on duties like reconciling the books, b) the upcoming need to be able to talk to interns privately when I’ll be managing them, and c) the level of distractions due to visitors, conversations between others, etc. I know when we discussed before, there wasn’t a space for me to move to. As we now have two empty offices, I would like to move into one of these and assign one of the new hires to the reception desk. Would that be an option?

      That might be longer than you need, but you get the idea. Your boss might not actually remember the previous conversation if it was a year ago. So reminding her sounds like a totally normal thing to do, and as the offices are empty, it won’t hurt to get your request in now.

      1. tangerineRose*

        And I wonder if the boss really wants the books to be reconciled right out at the receptionist’s desk, in front of anyone who walks by? I don’t mean that there’s anything to hide; just that a lot of people would prefer their finances to be private.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      At the bare minimum, doing the company’s finances has got to require an office and a locked filing cabinet. Can you use that as leverage?

      Also, in some office cultures, you could just move your stuff into one of the open offices and dare ’em to move you back. I wouldn’t recommend this approach to a novice at office politics, though.

    4. Bea*

      You’re handling financials, you need to be away from “prying eyes” is how I would voice it now.

      You may need to ask about dividing time and confirming no need for a full receptionist on duty until you hire one.

      Given the size you may still always do reception and clerical duties. I’m a career accounting/business operations manager and the smaller the pot the more menial tasks you’ll never get rid of even if you’re made CEO at some point.

    5. Q*

      You absolutely should not be managing the company’s finances at the reception desk. And you will need private space for meetings with your team members. If your boss is not aware of this, s/he is clueless.

  16. Jamir (*

    Removed because I’m pretty sure this is subtweeting a commenter here rather than really seeking advice. If I got it wrong, I sincerely apologize and please feel free to email me.

  17. Job Searching in Jacksonville*

    I have an interview on Tuesday with a company that has 9 employees acording to the person I spoke with during my phone interview. Does anyone have good questions I can ask to get a better feel for the culture of a company that is this small?

    Also what are some of the pros of working in a small office? I have seen plenty of Boris story cons, but what are some of the less common issues that you have experienced working in a small office?

    Thanks so much for the help!

    1. beanie beans*

      My husband works in a small office and here are some of the pros (and yep, plenty of cons!)

      -Decisions (should) get made quickly
      -When the company is doing well, it’s easy to treat all the employees with a bonus/celebration/gift.
      -A little less formal than larger companies – a little more flexibility and I feel like they treat each other a bit more like humans because they know each other better than if you worked in an office with 100 people.

      1. Job Searching in Jacksonville*

        If you don’t mind my asking, what are the things he has found to be the biggest issues for working in a small business that I might not think about or have heard about here on AAM?

        1. AnonEMoose*

          I’m not Beanie Beans, but I’ve worked in small offices before. And given a choice, will never do so again. One of my personal biggest workplace commandments when job seeking is “Never accept a position in which you will be the only person in the office who is never allowed to say no.”

          Twice, in previous positions, I was more or less low person in the hierarchy. Which meant that a lot of stuff got dumped on me because there was no one else to do it/no one else was willing to do it. Not that I was necessarily willing. But it needed to be done, and everyone else had already declined.

          In a smaller environment, office politics can be more intense. If it’s a health environment, that may not be a huge factor, but if it’s the least bit toxic…it’s probably going nowhere good.

          PTO can be trickier to negotiate if there are fewer people/no one to cover. Which may or may not be an issue, depending on the specific job.

        2. Zennish*

          As always, YMMV, but never again a small workplace for me…

          I was once told in an interview (company of 5 people) that I needed to be “comfortable with ambiguity”. That translated to “We don’t put any policy on paper, and just sort of make it up as we go. Also, your supervisor is passive-aggressive and bitter, so they will refuse to train you, then complain to the boss because you aren’t performing as expected.”

          The same place also made a big production out of how they didn’t stand on rank…when everything from how conveniently placed your mailbox was, to whether you could talk in meetings, was based on rank.

          The boss and the second ranked person were lovers, who regularly let their personal issues spill over into the office… it was an awesome place, and by awesome I mean “inspiring great apprehension or fear”.

        3. beanie beans*

          Similar to what Zennish and Moose said, these are the ones I hear him complain about the most:

          -One toxic person that isn’t dealt with has a much bigger impact on the work environment. His company doesn’t tend to deal with conflict well, maybe because they all know each other so well it’s harder to deal with problems. May just be his owner.
          -Decisions are made quickly (no bureaucracy) but if the owner/manager/head of the business makes bad decisions, there’s not a lot the rest of the company can do besides continue to advise. A bad leader can make things hell.
          -Like Zennish said, company policies change at the whim of the owner. Sometimes it’s minor stuff like beard length (yep!) and dress codes, other times it’s major stuff like work schedules and vacation policies.
          -This is hopefully not true of most small companies, but my personal opinion is that the management (i.e. owner/manager) get away with poor behavior that wouldn’t fly at a large company. No HR, they truly don’t know or understand the laws well, employees are in less of a position to stand up for themselves.

          But he’s been with them for almost 15 years, so it hasn’t been enough to make him leave! I think he likes the non-corporate feel, the fact that they all get along fairly well, and that the owner does a lot for the employees because they are a lot closer than coworkers at a large company.

        4. Keep Your Eyes On The Prize*

          I would say the physical layout of the office is the biggest issue. I worked for a lawyer and he and the accountant/paralegal/manager had their own office. They would close their doors to work. It meant I was sitting alone all day in the reception area with no natural light because their offices had all the windows. Some days the only person I saw was the mailman. The work wasn’t hard but it was a depressing office and often I felt like a prisoner returning to jail whenever I came back from lunch.

    2. Job Searching in Jacksonville*

      Oops, it looks like Horror story got autocorrected to Boris story. How that relates in not sure.

    3. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      I really think the pros come from the ability to wear many hats. Small companies can be great resume builders because you have an opportunity to take on more things and get experience in multiple areas that just wouldn’t be possible in a large company.

    4. OtterB*

      I would ask about interactions. My organization had 10 employees when I started (we’ve grown some since). Ours was an odd combination of silos and all-hands-on-deck. We weren’t big enough to have more than one person doing any one task, so mostly we each did our own thing and as a result there wasn’t much opportunity to bounce ideas off people and not a lot of collaboration – not in an unfriendly way, just that there wasn’t much overlap. On the other hand, when we had big tasks – a mailing, packet stuffing for a major conference, etc. – it was all hands on deck and everyone from the Executive Director down pitched in. This isn’t right or wrong, it’s just something to think about.

    5. Ally A*

      I would ask about benefits and infrastructure. I’ve worked for very small nonprofits and often if there’s under 10 employees it can be hard to get group insurance plans (if you’re in the U.S.). This may not be as big of a deal with ACA as it was a few years ago when I was at an org that only had 6 employees, but there we were given an allowance per month for health insurance, but we had to find our own. Also, I think smaller orgs can be less organized around policies – IME a lot of times if something has never come up before (think parental leave, ADA accomodations), they don’t have anything in place.

      Also, infrastructure – HR, tech support, printing and copying, etc. What’s in place and what do employees do themselves? Do they have any kind of a contract with a copier service? With tech support (even as simple as virus software)? If you’re coming from a large org, I think this could be a bit of an adjustment. Not having a quick help line to call about your computer, not having bulk office supplies available, etc.

      Also, with that few employees there may be very little to no support staff. So you may need to do administrative stuff that you’re not used to (of course this will depend on your job and the org).

    6. NonnyNon*

      I work in a company that has 10 employees plus the two owners, split into two departments (so each department is about 5 employees overseen by one of the owners).

      Pros:

      -I get a lot of experience working on a wide range of projects. This job really has been great for building up my resume.
      -The company is less formal, more flexible, and more willing to accommodate temporary schedule changes. I wear jeans to work every day and it doesn’t matter if I show up at 7:30am or 10am, as long as I still work 40 hours each week.

      Cons:
      -Decisions get bottlenecked with the owners and don’t go anywhere, so overall change is very, very slow to happen. All of our equipment and processes are embarrassingly outdated because the owners are stuck in their ways and don’t want to spend money to update things.
      -No company expense accounts, which is a Big Deal for the kind of work we do. Employees front any money needed and submit a reimbursement sheet every month or so… which then has to be processed by one of the owners, so repayment can take anywhere from a week to two months to go through.
      -We don’t have a dedicated office manager/admin, so some things slip through the cracks because it’s assumed that “someone else” handled it (like ordering new toner cartridges for the printer). And a lot of my time is spent answering customer phone calls, usually about work done by the other department that I’m not involved with at all.
      -Benefits are terrible. Most employees use their spouse’s benefits (including the owners). I think there’s only 2 or 3 people who actually get their health insurance through the company, everyone else pays for their own or is on their spouse’s plan.
      -Payroll problems!! We use an outside payroll company and one of the owners is responsible for submitting payroll information. In the 2 years I’ve been working here my paycheck has been delayed three times- once because of an error with our payroll company, but twice because of user error on the part of the owner.

      Neutral:
      -Most people have been here for 10+ years. There’s a definite divide between the older employees and the newer ones. Most new employees use this job as a jumping off point for something better and don’t stick around for very long.

      1. beanie beans*

        That’s funny, at my husband’s company decisions get made so fast. Not always the most informed decision but things go quickly compared to my bureaucratic job. I guess the takeaway is that the work environment and culture is very much defined by the management style of the owner!

    7. Sour Grapes*

      I work in a very small business – I’m the only full time on site, have one part time employee and we both report to the owners and the GM (owners son). I think one thing for me was the lack of any sort of standardized processes for anything. While some people may thrive on that (“hooray, I get to create everything the way I like it!”) it’s had some challenges for me as I would get disciplined for things that I didn’t know that I didn’t know. So I may ask questions along the lines of do they have processes in place, or if his position is one to make up new processes then if they have a clear idea of their expectations and what they’re asking for. And I think that something else that’s important is that they have a good long term plan. I didn’t ask before I was hired, and the owners are in their mid-70s with no clear plan for anything that may happen in the future (and now it wouldn’t be well received for me to ask about it).

    8. Hnl123*

      I worked at a place with only 5 people and it was one of my favorite jobs. I think when it’s this small, your experience is directly related to every one ‘s personality, dice there’s no escaping them. (In bigger companies, it’s easier to avoid people you don’t like.) I would ask if you could meet something the other people in the office to eat a feel.

      What I love about small places, IF you have a good boss, is things move much faster since there is little hierarchy and little politics. BUT if you disagree with your boss, it’s hard because there aren’t other voices to agree with your point of view. Rules can also be more informal, and my boss was much more willing to let us have flex time, extra vacations, etc since there was no HR policy. I’ve found that people who didn’t last long were people who had personal issues with the boss that’s magnified when there aren’t more people as buffers.

  18. moving?*

    I am in the very beginning phases of thinking about making a move to a city near where I am originally from. It’s just a thought right now, so nothing is official. My current boss used to work in that city, and I am wondering if it would be appropriate to tell her I am thinking about a move and ask her if she has any advice for places to look for jobs or any connections.

    1. beanie beans*

      I wouldn’t! It could consciously or unconsciously shape how she gives you assignments and treats you in the office. Use other resources (social media, friends, AAM?) to find out more about the city!

    2. Emily S.*

      IMHO, it’s best not to let her know that you’re thinking of leaving your job. Who knows how long it could take to find a position in that city? Job searches can take ages.

    3. Millennial Lawyer*

      I wouldn’t do it unless you KNOW you are about to move to that city. Once you’re set on your plans, and you’d have to communicate with your boss that you’re leaving anyhow, that would be a good time to ask for recommendations.

  19. ThursdaysGeek*

    Someone suggested this and I agree. Yesterday we had a post about recognizing employees in the wrong way. Can people share accounts of recognizing employees that worked well?

    1. stefanielaine*

      Money and time off. You can get creative about how those are applied, but ultimately, that’s how you should be rewarding and retaining your top performers.

      My fiance’s current company, on the other hand, gives everyone a certain number of points per month that they can award to their fellow employees for a job well done, and those points translate directly into money each month, either cash or Amazon gift cards. It’s an awesome way for employees to get meaningfully rewarded for good work that their bosses don’t see, and it builds comradery amongst employees.

      My last job was very lip-servicey about work/life balance and living our best lives and they were big on giving achievement certificates and other useless things, but then they gave us EIGHT paid days off per year. EIGHT. Per YEAR. Don’t be that company!

      1. King Friday XIII*

        I had a retail job as a doll hair stylist where we could write up little certificates recognizing our coworkers for being awesome and then we could trade those certificates in for snacks or soda, and it was RIDICULOUSLY good for building good team relationships. We appreciated the heck out of each other and we all knew it. XD

        1. Zennish*

          We tried that for a while, and discovered that our high performing teams would only recognize each other if someone single-handedly saved the company, and the low performing teams were like “You showed up for work today! You deserve a prize!” This is why we can’t have nice things. Sigh.

      2. Britt*

        Ex-job implemented the reward process that your Fiance’s company uses. It seemed like it would be awesome, until co-workers started giving points for “Jane brought green beer yay! 50 pts!” “Jack helped me kill a spider, 25 pts!”– yes these really happened and mgmt counted them! it really became a favoritism contest in a group that already had a flavor of favoritism

      3. A Worker Bee*

        My company has that. It’s one of the big five banks in Canada. And in my department it is just one more thing for management to play favouritism with.

    2. miyeritari*

      This will come off as sarcastic, but honestly I think the best way to recognize people is with dollars.

    3. E*

      Verbal or written commendation for hard work is appreciated also. Knowing that management sees and acknowledges your contributions is helpful in building morale.

    4. Lumen*

      “It’s nice to be liked, but it’s better by far to get paid
      (I know that most of the friends that I have don’t really see it that way)
      But if you could give them each one wish
      How much do you wanna bet?
      They’d wish success for themselves and their friends
      And that would include lots of money”

      – Liz Phair, ‘S***loads of Money’

    5. CatCat*

      Money and extra time off are always great.

      When that’s not possible (heyo, government employees), I’ve appreciated recognition. For example, I feel chuffed when my manager has told me after meeting with Higher Ups that (1) Higher Ups appreciated and had good feedback on whatever project I had worked on, and (2) manager appreciates what I did not the project.

    6. KG*

      Once a year, a previous boss would have people fill out a check list of how they liked to be recognized. Like, in front of peers, 1 on 1, via announcement, via private email, etc. There was space to list your favorite snacks and small treats. Everybody was recognized for the same kinds of things, but in different fashions. I’d get an email praising my work on a project with the department and big boss copied. My coworker would get a thank you card and a pack of M&Ms on his desk. Besides being nice to be recognized, it felt more personal. And it was helpful to know that just because some people weren’t being praised in staff meetings, it didn’t mean they weren’t doing great work. They just didn’t like public attention.

      As far as the most popular thing that boss handed out… off-the-books PTO. She couldn’t enter it in PeopleSoft, but kept track privately. If you wanted to use it, you just emailed to say you were taking a bonus day. I usually got an extra 4 days/year. It didn’t pay out when you left, of course. The higher-ups definitely would not have been pleased, but it was very much appreciated by the staff.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        I really like that – someone else yesterday used a phrase something like “love languages for the office”. That’s impressive for that boss.

      2. Blue_eyes*

        Love your boss. It’s so self-aware and empathetic to reward people that way! So many people just assume others want to be recognized in the same ways they do, which leads to stuff like praising an employee in a meeting while that employee is trying to crawl under the table in embarrassment.

    7. ThursdaysGeek*

      I worked at a place that had a ‘Jacksonian’ meeting. We would send an email when a co-worker did something above and beyond, or helped us out. Then in the Jacksonian meeting, my boss had $20 bills (thus the name for the meeting). He’d read all the emails and sometimes he’d hand out one bill to the best of the lot, and sometimes hand out a bill to everyone who had gotten a commendation email.

      One time we were told to meet and didn’t know why, and he asked us if we thought we were doing well at our jobs, and then handed everyone a $50 bill.

      We also got profit sharing, so every quarter we’d get a bonus check, and those were often big enough to count as an extra paycheck.

      Oh, and they paid all insurance costs for the employee and family, no matter what the family size was. I think they still do that, even though it really costs.

      This was a small, family owned business, and it wasn’t all wonderful, which is why I’m not there anymore. But I think they did employee recognition well.

      1. A Worker Bee*

        The $50 bill story, profit sharing and insurance for the whole family are the best best employee recognition I’ve heard of yet. The Jacksonian meetings I don’t agree with because we have something similar and it just becomes a popularity contest.

    8. Blue_eyes*

      At just under a year on the job, my boss called me into her office, told me I was the best assistant she’d ever had, and gave me a significant pay bump. Both her comments and the pay increase were an excellent way to be recognized.

    9. Triumphant Fox*

      We had an anonymous box for suggestions and kudos. Each month, we had a company meeting (it wasn’t a large company) and those who had received kudos would get a gift card. Managers also had days off and gift cards they could give out, and would do so when we had pushed particularly hard.

    10. Faintlymacabre*

      For a couple of years in college, I had a part time job. When I left to study abroad, they gave me $500. It was so touching, because I loved working there and it showed that they really valued me too.

  20. Allie O*

    I’ve been reading AAM for a while now and love it! Does anyone have any other career-focused blog recommendations in addition to AAM? I’m a 30 y/o woman in a fairly corporate job so something along those lines would be preferred but I’m open to all suggestions :)

    1. Probably Nerdy*

      I like the Vital Smarts blog. It’s called “crucial skills” or something. I’ve read a few of their books and found them more or less useful.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Evil HR Lady (Suzanne Lucas). (She can be a bit conservative sometimes, I think?)
      Ask a Headhunter (or subscribe to email digest)
      Ask Liz (at Forbes)

  21. Alternative Person*

    So after being bounced around four separate branches this week, as well as doing my own work at my regular branch (thus cementing my role as designated ping pong ball), my manager rejected the plan he asked me to make on the grounds of it would require people checking and maintaining a simple excel spreadsheet.

    (I think between the lines it was also because it was not like popular co-worker’s plan for a different group of clients but I maintain privately that his plan is not good because it crams too much work into a limited amount of time.)

    I was so excited after returning from my two week training trip, but spending time in a good environment really emphasized all the bad aspects of my current job situation. I had decided I wouldn’t start job hunting until after the distance aspect of my training programme was mostly done but I’m going to start searching now because I am just so frustrated going to work day after day. Sure it’ll be upheaval but egads I really want out now.

  22. fposte*

    You guys, there was the most amazing and horrible work story and narrative coincidence breaking on reddit’s legal advice sub this week.

    Earlier in the week somebody posted that they had given a baby shower to a co-worker who didn’t want one, and could they get into trouble? Subsequent Q&A revealed that the co-worker was an observant Jew who was deeply opposed to baby showers for cultural reasons, and that the OP was shockingly intolerant. So far, so gross.

    Then a few days later somebody posted about being given personally given something at a potluck that was later revealed to breach her dietary restrictions, and was this a hostile workplace? And after a little Q&A a very sharp commenter put two and two together: this person was the target of the previous person, and she’d been deliberately given non-kosher food by the OP of the prior post. Neither of them knew the other was posting on reddit.

    Victim OP was initially just shocked that people knew so much about her personal business, but redditors pointed out that the previous post was a goldmine for her since it proved she was targeted for her faith, and they yanked out deleted comments from the previous post for the OP to share. So hopefully, somewhere today, a person who has been persecuting her co-worker and stupidly telling the internet about it is getting her ass handed to her.

        1. Michelle.*

          I’m reading it now. Slow day at work and this IS amazing. I hope the person and her team that are discriminating against the woman get taken behind the wood shed.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      WOW. That assistant manager woman, the one who threw the baby shower and thought the Jewish woman was “rude” because she didn’t want quiche (which probably had bacon in it)? NIGHTMARE. My hackles go way up when people say they’re “just trying to be nice” while blatantly disregarding information I give them. Thank you for sharing.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      I just want to point out that the /r/legaladvice community is poorly moderated and you should not trust legal advice from anyone other than your own attorney. Including this advice.

      1. fposte*

        I would say that for pretty much every online forum I know, in fact, including a few other legal ones.

      2. Elsajeni*

        I’ve seen people (also identifying themselves as attorneys) say basically this but add that it can be useful at the level of “is this a lawyer problem, a send-a-strongly-worded-letter problem, or a that-sucks-but-is-perfectly-legal problem” — do you think that’s reasonable?

        1. fposte*

          I think it’s true as long as you have some filtering ability yourself. You have to be able to discount the idiot on one extreme who says “You should press charges and get a billion dollars from the state!” and the idiot on the other extreme who says “You should hear what I had to deal with–this is nothing and stop being a baby,” to say nothing of “the law is that you can safely do this/have this” but only in the commenter’s state and not in the poster’s. I would say the duller and less sensational your question, the better your advice is likely to be overall and the more likely you are to be able to process the range of responses. Easement questions fare very well :-).

    4. Ella*

      I was going to post about this! The whole thing brought my productivity to a complete standstill for about an hour this morning. Hoooooooly cow.

      1. fposte*

        Are you a redditor too or has it escaped reddit? I kind of hope for Victim OP’s sake it doesn’t, since she didn’t seem like she’d enjoy that, but it is a jaw-dropping story.

        1. Ella*

          I also saw it on reddit. I subscribe to the legaladvice sub so it showed up while I was browsing.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Holy cow… that is some crazy shit. I hope that the Victim OP gets some justice.

    6. Savannnah*

      YIKES. This is why people need to sit down when they don’t understand something. Judaism is intensely superstitious and even some culturally Jewish women, those who aren’t observant, don’t have baby showers because you might ‘tempt the fates’ and something bad will happen to the baby. People usually get around this by storing baby things at the grandparents house or a sibling but its still a big deal to force someone to have a celebration that this woman thinks could hurt her baby. You can’t take that back with any apology. Just another layer of Jews having to navigate rejecting normative ‘why would anyone not like this’ celebrations (re: Christmas)

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        See also: “Oh, her family’s Jewish. I would steer away from sending flowers to the funeral, because we often don’t do that and it would be weird to ask. We usually send food, and a donation is fine, or even just a note.” “What? That’s stupid. I’m sending flowers.”

      2. LostInTheStacks*

        Yeah, ugh, this whole topic made me cringe. I had a cousin who had a miscarriage, and when she got pregnant again she was understandably rather nervous as well as excited, and she was scrupulous about researching Jewish pregnancy traditions and following them to the letter. (I think it was partly for her own peace of mind, too. It made her feel better to know she was putting good vibes out there.) She had a work friend who just Did Not Get It; like, didn’t actually plan a baby shower like the person mentioned above, but definitely kept asking her why she wouldn’t have one and tried to get other coworkers to join in.

        The final straw was when my cousin came to work one day to find a balloon and a few little gifts (a onesie, a bib, etc) on her desk, and her friend said something like “well if you weren’t so stubborn, we could have just given these to you at a real shower.” My cousin told me she “pretty much exploded” and told her that she had already miscarried once and fully explained why she didn’t want a baby shower. Previously she had only said Jews don’t usually have them, this time she explained that having one is almost considered willfully putting the baby and the mother at risk. The coworker was super embarrassed and apologized, but their friendship never really recovered, and she left for a new job a few years later.

        Anyway, she now has two lovely boys, ages 4 and 1, and no one bothered her about having a shower for her youngest, although her coworkers did buy her a lovely quilt and a Babies R Us gift card *after* he was born.

      3. JokersandRogues*

        There are many cultures that don’t hold baby showers until after the baby’s birth. It could even have been a personal belief and they still shouldn’t have held it. Just disrespectful all around.

    10. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      Slightly related, my true first job (not my first job in my field) gave easter eggs for all their employees.
      Regardless of dietary restrictions.
      Regardless of religion.
      Handed out by someone dressed as the Easter Bunny.
      And it was a Germany-based company, so you’d think they knew how to deal with this.

      1. NorthCalifHR*

        I worked for a Human Resources executive that invited the national team to a ‘kahlua pig’ feast; sent personalized Christmas ornaments and decorated Easter eggs to team members; group email-shamed several team members for taking time off for Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashana … and topped off the year by requiring us all to attend a 2-day diversity training. Clear to all of us that he had no clue at all about diversity, inclusion, consideration … words fail.

      2. Julia*

        I actually think that Germany and Germans are way behind in diversity and tolerance of others. Heck, our governing party has Christian in their name!

    12. MuseumChick*

      O.M.G….this is amazing and horrifying and hilarious and so many other things mixed into one my brain can’t handle it.

      Am I terrible person for wanting to know what happens next?

    14. Naptime Enthusiast*

      There’s a goldmine of quotes and information here, but I think my favorite is “Inclusion does not mean assimilation. It means acceptance and accommodating difference.”

    15. Blue_eyes*

      Wow. Well…that was … a thing. So many feelings about this and so angry that this manager is being so insensitive to the pregnant woman’s religious practices.

      My husband has kept kosher his whole life. Once in college, someone baked a muffin with LARD and left it in his dorm room for him, hoping he would eat it because I guess she though his religious dietary restrictions were stupid or something. (Fortunately, he didn’t eat it because he didn’t know who it came from and why it was in his room.) I think she got some sensitivity training from the college for that one. This was 12 years ago, and before I knew him, and it still makes me boiling mad just thinking about it.

      If someone says they don’t eat/do/like something for ANY reason (religious, medical, personal preference) just shrug and move along because it’s not your d*mn business!

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        One of my biggest WTF with some people is why the dietary choices of other’s drive them to do utterly batshit things. Like WHY? Why on earth do you give a flying eff that the person who is five cubicles down from you keeps kosher, or doesn’t eat meat, or eats nothing but McDonald’s french fries and milkshakes? You are not cooking for them, you are not going to have to take care of them if they get diabetes, your livelihood doesn’t depend on whether they consume bacon, WHATEVER. It is 100% banana crackers. (Thank you to whoever here coined that phrase; I’ve been dying to use it.)

        1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

          My coworker is strict Jewish and keeps kosher. I have (hopefully politely) asked a few questions, and he’s been very kind about answering them. I have also explicitly asked him under what conditions he could eat treats brought in, so that if possible I could follow the rules. (I can’t, but at least I know that!) I’ve done WAY more googling to satisfy my curiosity.

          1. Blue_eyes*

            Most people don’t mind questions :). We know it’s confusing to people who are unfamiliar because there are so many rules. And to make it even more confusing, there are lots of levels of observance, so what is ok for one person might not be for another. For instance, my husband and I and his family will eat vegetarian and fish dishes at any restaurant or home, but will only eat meat at kosher homes and restaurants. People who are more observant than us would only eat at kosher homes or restaurants.

            1. Bigglesworth*

              Even though my dad grew up in Israel, I never really knew many Jewish people until moving to the DC area. It’s been really cool and interesting, but it’s sometimes difficult the gauge the level that each person observes their faith. For example, I have one friend who is observing Passover and is currently eating Kosher (even though she normally doesn’t). I have another friend who is not really observing Passover, but also never eats pork but is fine with everything else. Yet another doesn’t observe, isn’t celebrating, and didn’t even know when Passover started. It can add a new layer to getting everyone together, but at the same time it’s not an inconvenience for me if I don’t make bacon for Saturday brunch or made sure the chicken isn’t breaded for a few weeks. I care about these people and I want them to feel comfortable in my home even though I’m not Jewish.

        2. Totally Minnie*

          I feel this comment deep in my soul. I really don’t understand the personal offense some people take when another person doesn’t eat a certain food. Whether it’s a religious choice, an allergy, or anything else, I really don’t understand the impulse to feel insulted by that. But we’ve had whole threads here about the things people hide in other people’s food to prove a point.

          Why are people?

        3. Mel*

          I know! I mean why are someone else’s food choices so so important to you?
          I love cooking and baking. I will often bring things in to work to share. I’ve never gotten offended if someone refuses for any reason (due to dietary restrictions or just not hungry/interested). Why would anyone try to undermine or sabotage anyone else’s food choices? banana crackers is a great description for it.

      2. LilySparrow*

        Yes, not only is it incomprehensible why other people care, but what on Earth does it accomplish to trick someone like this?

        Like, what’s the purpose? What do you “win”? If you just want to make someone feel gross and awkward, there are a lot simpler ways to go about it that don’t involve trying to source lard on a college campus or bake in a dorm. That’s…a lot of work just to be petty.

        1. LilySparrow*

          Not petty, that’s the wrong word, it’s hateful. But still, the amount of time and effort? Bizarre.

    16. EmilyAnn*

      That was so depressing to read. That manager is a bigot of the worst kind. She doesn’t like her employee because she’s Jewish and her dietary habits, clothing, and stance on baby showers is different from hers. She did not say one thing about the employees job performance. It was all things that made her “different”. Want an ignorant terrible person.

    17. Celestine*

      Geez. It must be terrible managers week on reddit.
      There was a post on relationships where a women’s boss kept trying to dictate her behavior at after-work meetups.

    18. Millennial Lawyer*

      OMG IS THIS FOR REAL? It’s hard for me to believe it’s real but… it’s a small world. Lordy.

    19. AngelicGamer aka that visually impaired peep*

      /goes to read thread and needs to reconnect jaw from it hitting the floor

      What in the ever loving nine levels of hell is wrong with people?! Also, if you see where it is, it mentally triggered the comment thread from the 4 questions this morning about regions in the US. O.M.G. Just… jeez.

    21. Bigglesworth*

      This is terrible. I just finished reading it in it’s entirety (deleted posts and everything) and I am beyond seeing flames – I’m at my scary angry stage where everything seems calm and logical but I am still hellbent on wanting to make sure this manager never manages again. I know I can’t do anything from where I’m at, but I really want to find out if an attorney takes this up and offer to be a free legal research assistant for them. I may not be an attorney yet, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be of some help.

    22. Jemima Bond*

      In the interests of drawing a positive from that terrible behaviour, I have learnt something useful to me from reading the Reddits – that it is considered bad luck in the Jewish faith to talk much about an expected baby or buy things for it before it is born. I have two Jewish friends who recently got married and they may well decide to have children – I usually make quilts for friends’ babies but if I hear they are expecting I shall now know it’s best to lay off the sewing until the baby is born, because it would be more respectful of their culture.

  23. Not a Real Giraffe*

    I started in my current role in mid-November. Since then, my entire team has turned over. Literally no one that I interviewed with is still here. Beyond my team, we are a business unit of about 25 or so people. In the 5 months that I’ve been here, 6 of those 25 people have left. Apparently this is not unusual.

    There are some deep-seated issues in our unit that no one seems to want to address. Lack of communication, huge inefficiencies, trust issues, etc. We are known across the organization for being unable to keep staff.

    My plan is to move out of state next year, which means I really should stay in this job until then (rather than leave for another role, and then leave that role next summer). Any advice for sticking it out when everyone else, including people I really enjoyed working with, are leaving? Any advice for trying to get higher-ups to address the issues that cause our unit to lose really good talent?

    1. Luna123*

      I don’t have any recommendations, but I just wanted to say that I’ve been in a similar situation (so much turnover! and pretty much all of them were my friends!), and you have my sympathies.

    2. Sara without an H*

      I think you’re wise to stick it out until you’re ready to relocate. Why not use the time to pick up new skills that will make you more competitive in your new location?

      The other thing I would do is build a social life outside of work. While it’s natural to miss people you’ve enjoyed working with, relying on workplace friendships in an organization with this much turmoil is probably just going to make you unhappy.

      As for trying to get the higher-ups to do anything about the situation: I wouldn’t hold my breath. You say that your unit is “known across the organization for being unable to keep staff.” If that is the case, then the higher ups know about the situation and may, or may not, have a plan for dealing with it. You’ve been with them for less than a year and aren’t planning on staying long-term anyway — you don’t have enough political capital to burn on this issue.

      So build your own skill set, have fun outside of work, and start planning for your transition to your new location.

    3. CatCat*

      Just keep your head down and do you work. Try to avoid any venting with coworkers. It will be exhausting.

      “Any advice for trying to get higher-ups to address the issues that cause our unit to lose really good talent?”

      Don’t bother. It is apparent to everyone that the team has high turnover. If the higher-ups cared to address it, they would. Not your problem to take on. You can give feedback in your exit interview if you are so inclined.

      1. Samiratou*

        All of this.

        If it’s known across the company that your org can’t keep people, then the higher ups know it, too, are deliberately choosing not to address that.

        Do what you can with your own work and get out without too much stress.

  24. Shawshank*

    How do you cope with a friend from a dysfunctional OldJob who’s still there and seems stuck?

    Friend and I are still in touch and hang out sometimes. Friend will complain about dysfunction and usually it’s just something we can laugh and roll our eyes about. Sometimes, though, it’s her complaining about things that aren’t going to change, like Fergus the jerk manager skipping over her and giving his favorite direct report a project that she’ll end up having to fix. When I urge her to job hunt she kind of shrugs it off. If I try some of the Captain Awkward stuff like asking her how she thinks she could change that or what she could do, she deflects or goes quiet for a while. If I get mad and tell her that she knows it’s never going to get better and she needs to get a new job, she goes into a whole thing about what if another job is worse, she gets paid pretty well where she is now, or she’ll get defensive and talk about all the great things about the job.

    I guess I’m just venting. This isn’t someone I want to stop talking to completely but it’s so frustrating.

    1. fposte*

      Is it frustrating that she’s talking about it when you want to talk about something else, or frustrating that your friend isn’t doing what she could to improve her life? The first you have some power over, but the second you really don’t, and you are almost certainly going to run into that same situation again throughout your life. Sometimes people just get stuck in jobs or spouses or life choices, and they just don’t have the wherewithal we wish they did to break free.

      1. Shawshank*

        Part of it is that she complains while doing almost nothing to change. Part of it is that she does the same things and then is angry that she doesn’t get a different result. Like, she’ll tell Fergus that she’s upset he did something unfair, and Fergus will blow her off. Then she’s upset that Fergus blew her off. When I ask her why she thought Fergus would act any differently from the million other times she’s talked to him she tries to change the subject.

        1. fposte*

          I recommend you reframe your problem. It is not how she talks about work; it is that she keeps talking about something that you don’t want to talk about so much. That you might be able to change. But focusing your energy on having her change her approach to work is just going to mean you squander it and stay more involved than you ought to be with a place that you left for good reason.

    2. Badmin*

      Maybe when you hang out you could say Oh! I don’t feel like talking about OldJob today! Then change subject?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This is my advice given Shawshank’s comment to fposte above. The friend sounds like my mother, and I always have to redirect her conversations away from work because she gripes about the same problems ALL. THE. TIME. For the last EIGHT YEARS. When I ask how her job search is coming, there’s always some excuse as to why it’s not, so I have to end the discussion because it’s annoying that she’d rather complain than help herself.

    3. Lumen*

      Give it time. A friend of mine from Toxic OldJob has stayed there for over a year since I left, and just recently (finally) came to the conclusion that it’s time to seek other employment.

      Try being understanding and then insert a subject change, or invite them to do things to build a shared history unrelated to your old job. “Yup: Fergus is a jerk and he’s probably not going to change! Oh, are you going to that new exhibit at the museum? We should go together!”

      Also, focus on the positive: “I’m glad this job is working out for you and what you need right now. I just also want you to remember that you actually do deserve a job that pays you well (etc) and where you’re treated better.”

      Because shrugging off the ideas of looking for new jobs, believing that other jobs will be worse, deflecting/going silent when the responsibility for change is put on her, then defending a dysfunctional workplace… honestly I’m guessing, but all of this sounds to me like someone who does not think they deserve any better, and this is the best they can get. I doubt that’s actually true of your friend. So maybe try that angle: tell them over and over that it doesn’t have to be this way and they deserve better, and maybe eventually some of that will sink in past the layers of muck and negative self-talk.

  25. E*

    Is it considered lying if you’ve neglected to update your LinkedIn info?

    I haven’t used my account in years and not sure if I can be bothered to update it…

    2. Emily S.*

      You may want to consider deleting your LinkedIn account completely, if you don’t use it. Plenty of people are not on LinkedIn.

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        Thank you for that reminder! I set one up, but have never used it. Now it is no longer!

    3. Curious Cat*

      As long as you’re not providing your LinkedIn account to potential employers/on your resume, I don’t think that’s “lying.” If you were providing the link, I’d say you need to update it, and if anyone asks in an interview why the information doesn’t match with your resume, you can just safely say you don’t actively use the platform & your resume is the most up-to-date.

    4. miyeritari*

      I don’t think it’s lying, but if you have a LinkedIn, I’d keep it updated, because people may be confused by discrepancies on your resume (or othewise) and your LinkedIn. But you could also just delete it if you don’t think it will help your case and you don’t want to update it.

    6. nep*

      I would certainly delete it if you don’t use / update. Better not to have one than to have an outdated one you don’t use.

  26. Leave it to Beaver*

    I feel slightly guilty for asking this, but…

    We have a new person in our 20-person department. She’s a bit of a know-it-all and do-gooder. Kind of rubs folks the wrong way, but not a bad person. As is evidenced by her active role in making our office more environmentally friendly. Now, I’m not one to not use recycling and I can certainly bring in my own coffee mug. But we recently had a discussion about silverware, because our admin buys plastic, which I do use admittedly. We now have to bring in our own silverware (or the alternative was having departmental silverware everyone would be tased with cleaning, which honestly gives me the heebie jeebies contemplating how many mouths one fork may have served). For some reason this suggestion has irked me more than others. Part 1, we live in a major city and it is not unheard of to get pests. Part 2, several members of our department are not good about washing dishes. (I have no idea who they are, but I see the bowls and cups left in the sink, some so long they develop mold)

    I’m beginning to feel as though I’m being forced to adopt a mentality that I don’t have. And although I’m not going to pitch a fit over bringing in a fork and spoon from home, I kind of don’t appreciate the pressure to save the planet. (which is a catch phrase that has been mentioned every time we discuss green measures).

    In the end, I don’t know if I’m a horrible person for not wanting to be as green as I can be because it inconveniences me or if I’m a horrible person because honestly part of me just doesn’t want to do what this woman is forcing me to do.

    1. WellRed*

      I’d be annoyed too and I am into recycling. every time I grab a plastic spoon or fork from the office kitchen I think, “I could bring in my own silverware and take it home with my lunch containers.” But, I never do and probably never will.

      1. Kittyfish 76*

        I do this. I take my own silverware back and forth daily. For me, it’s easier, I know no one has touched it, and my kitchen is cleaner.

        1. Neosmom*

          I do this, too. And I know the silverware and cup and food containers have gone through my dishwasher and have not been handled by anyone else. I just make it part of my lunch packing routine.

    2. Tara S.*

      I understand the impulse to use metal silverware, but you could maybe bring up that the office don’t have a way to ensure consistent cleanliness, which is a safety issue. We use metal silverware in my office, but we have dishwashers, so you know that stuff is being adequately cleaned. Might be a way to push back.

      1. Windchime*

        Most people in my office have a dish or two that they brought from home, along with a few pieces of flatware. We all have little storage cupboards and keep them in there. Everyone just washes their own dish and silverware when they are done eating. I guess it’s confusing to me why it would be hard to keep the dishes clean?

        I probably wouldn’t use dishes or silverware that was “community property”.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      First of all, you’re not a horrible person for not liking it. Just don’t fill her office with styrofoam to get back at her. ;)

      I actually started an initiative like this at my company, but I got the company to buy restaurant silverware, which the office manager (who was part of our green initiative group) washed once, then set out. We advised people to take a set and keep it at their desk and be responsible for it, but if they left it in the kitchen to please wash it after using it. The office manager took care of anything left out when he resupplied the break rooms, and after talking to him, the silverware is less of a problem than peoples’ personal mugs and plates and bowls anyway, so it’s not like the silverware creates a problem that didn’t exist.

      But then, in our industry ecological initiatives are something you use to promote your business, and because of this and other initiatives, we’ve won some county- and state-wide awards.

      1. anycat*

        ooooh i’m wondering if we are in the same industry!
        we have silverware that the office can use – just place it in the dishwasher or wash it when you are done. I’m in the habit of keeping a reusable metal straw at my desk for my coffees and smoothies.

    4. Manders*

      Reusable shared forks doesn’t seem at all weird to me–after all, that’s what you’re getting every time you go to a restaurant–but it sounds like this office already isn’t great at handling shared cleaning tasks so I get not wanting to make that worse.

      I’m in a SUPER anti-waste part of the country (like, you can get fined by the city for putting compostable material in the trash-level anti-waste) and my normal’s a lot different than my normal, but IMO you can’t save the planet by badgering individuals about their choices. Plus, coworkers only see a tiny slice of your life–there may be other ways you’re being green that they don’t know about. It’s pretty rude to imply that your silverware choices are a moral failing.

      1. Manders*

        *My normal’s a lot different than YOUR normal.

        I should stop commenting halfway through my first cup of coffee.

      2. zora*

        Yeah, this is not an effective approach to greening the office if you aren’t working with how people behave and your current office set up. I am also in that city, and we are working on making our office more sustainable, but there are many ways to approach these things and you have to do things that are actually going to work in the long run or it’s pointless.

        Have you asked your do-gooder about ‘compostable’ silverware? They make stuff out of plant fibers, and it technically can’t go in the compost, it has to go in the garbage. But, still, the idea is it’s better because it’s not plastic, it is actually biodegradable and not made out of petroleum products. Honestly, it has it’s own problems that I won’t get into, and it’s true, reusable metal utensils are actually the best move environmentally. But if you don’t have a dishwasher and a clear cleaning system, than there’s no point to that because people aren’t going to stick with it anyway.

        I’m sorry she’s being annoying!

    5. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      Yeah, unless this new coworker has a plan to get all the silverware washed, that’s not really a great plan.

      There are a number of alternatives I can think of:
      – Bring your own (small package) of plastic silverware and keep in your desk. (I know this defeats the purpose, but if you want to use plastic silverware, that’s really not the worst thing in the world.)
      – Push back and ask if instead of plastic if the company would be willing to spring for the compostable variety of disposable silverware. There are a number of options out there that aren’t made of plastic.
      – Keep bringing regular silverware from home.

    6. Leave it to Beaver*

      No dishwashers here, unfortunately. Though that would make this whole thing a bit more palatable to me. And although we do have an office assistant, I can guarantee you that she will not be on board with maintaining communal silverware. (To be fair, I don’t think she should be). I think it boils down to this notion that we’re all adults and should look after our stuff and be respectful of our colleagues. But, in reality, everyone has their own opinion as to how that plays out. I suppose plastic is contemporary society’s way of removing some of that confusion. If you’re a messy or busy or forgetful person, it’s much simpler to throw out a fork than wash it. And I appreciate that flexibility, because while I’m pretty neat at work, it’s not uncommon for me to have dishes in the sink at home. (Perhaps that’s where my irritation comes in, I don’t want to add lunch forks for work to my dishwashing at home, plus, I know I will lose a fork in my bag and find it a week later and be irritated… but I digress) I did enjoy the perk of free plastic forks at work, but as Amy Farrah Fowler mentioned, I’m pretty sure I’m going to end up buy my own package of them for my desk.

      1. Lumen*

        If this were a school/daycare or a hospital cafeteria or restaurant or so on: there isn’t just a requirement for mechanical dishwashing, there’s a requirement for how hot the water in the dishwasher needs to be in order to clean correctly, and sometimes a requirement for an additional sanitizing machine.

        In some people’s minds, running a fork under some tepid water and then drying it with a paper towel = clean. In some people’s minds, coughing/sneezing into your hand and then going around touching everything without washing = totally fine. And you cannot control other people or change their attitudes about this; all you can do is take necessary steps to protect yourself from their willingness to share disease and illness with you.

        So no. You are not crazy or a bad person, and it doesn’t sound like your office is equipped to switch to reusable dishes and cutlery without causing problems. Your coworker should feel free to bring in their own reusable set, and so should anyone else who wants to. But the office has apparently decided to ignore all consequences and go with this change anyway, so you do what works best for you: even if that is a box of plastic cutlery for you to keep in your desk.

        And if the Judgey Starers give you Judgey Stares, that’s their problem.

    7. GoryDetails*

      I just wanted to mention that I found “tased with cleaning” one of the better spell-check tweaks that I’ve encountered lately. It can feel like that when one is pressured to do more dish-washing at work than seems appropriate – though I’ve also seen situations when having the ability to tase the people-who-never-clean-up-after-themselves would have been very welcome!

      1. Lumen*

        I imagined some kind of Star Trekkian dish-cleaning phaser that uses lasers to sanitize forks. :D

      2. Leave it to Beaver*

        hahahahaha… that was supposed to be tasKed with cleaning. But given the pressure, tased with cleaning, does describe it well.

    8. Colette*

      I bring my silverware with my lunch, but sometimes I forget. If there’s no plastic stuff at work, what happens? I think it’s fine to encourage people to use silverware, but there’s a reason plastic exists. (It’s like people who want to ban single-use water bottles. I understand they’re not great, but if I’m out somewhere and need a drink, they’re a pretty convenient option).

    9. Elena*

      What’s her actual job? :p Maybe onve busy season sets in she will have less time for social activism.

      1. Leave it to Beaver*

        Yeah, unfortunately, her job is literally to inform staff of the latest and greatest happening at the company. She manages our newsletters and all-staff emails. So while this isn’t necessarily directly in her purview as she doesn’t direct policy, it’s very solidly within her scope to suggest these kinds of improvements and this was given a nod by her boss. It’s not mandatory we go green, the office just won’t be buying plastic utensils or paper cups any longer.

        1. Kathenus*

          I have no problem with the office deciding not to buy plastic anymore. If they were banning your ability to bring in plastic for yourselves, that might be different, but I think anything to take a baby step towards doing away with single use plastics is a good thing. Our office uses plastic, when we have a need, but I keep my own personal flatware in my office that I use and clean. It’s my choice. You could do the same with plastic.

    10. LBG*

      I have my own supply of plastic forks, spoons, and knives (along w/ paper plates & napkins) in my desk drawer. Minor cost for major peace of mind. Of course, I work for the Gov’t, and we can’t use official funds to buy that stuff in any event – we have an office kitty for that (and I do contribute to that as well – not worth being the odd person out.) BTW, metal knives longer than 2 inches are forbidden by security.

    11. Buckeye*

      Could you suggest that they do both options? That’s what my office does. We have “office silverware” that people can use, wash, and put back in the drawer, and we also have plastic silverware available. This way people who are plastic conscious can do something environmentally friendly and people who are germ-conscious eat in peace.

      It doesn’t fully eliminate plastic if that’s the goal, but it does arguably cut down on plastic use without forcing anyone to act a certain way.

      1. Leave it to Beaver*

        I could suggest. I did speak out against communal silverware. But the tone of these conversations is very judgmental and I, honestly, don’t feel strongly enough (or have a strong enough case) to attempt to battle a know-it-all about my preference for plastic. The office has several people who are very environmentally conscious (those who bike to work, carry around their BPA-free water bottles) and I’m not really looking to debate the issue with them. I’ve worked at other companies that had similar environments (the last place I worked was 50% vegetarian or vegan – I like pepperoni on my pizza – v. v. bad) and in order to avoid a lecture, it’s sometimes easier to remain quietly subversive.

        1. Buckeye*

          Ah, I see. My office is not conscious in any of those ways. I could see not wanting to put yourself in the position of being lectured. I don’t get why people think lecturing others will change their behavior; it’s more likely to make me stubborn in my own ways!

          I guess in this situation I would buy some cheap silverware to keep at my desk so that at least I wouldn’t be sharing with everyone else. I can see how this is annoying when wrapped up with everything else you’ve described!

    12. naya*

      Huh? What’s the big deal about bringing your own silverware? How many utensils do you use? A fork, a knife, a spoon…and that’s too much?

      1. Leave it to Beaver*

        Oh, there you are – Judgy McJudgerton. Thank you for sharing your incredible insight and wisdom on this subject. I now see the error of my ways and will live a righteous, perfect life, as you do.

      2. zora*

        Yeah, that’s super unhelpful, and not what we do here. Read the commenting rules, please.

    13. Eye of Sauron*

      You could go the passive aggressive route and just bring in and use your own plastic silverware.

      Yep, I get you this sounds as silly when I’m reading this as when when they instituted it in my office.

    14. Adams*

      I guess I don’t understand the issue here, although certainly might not understand the set-up at your office. Can you not just bring in a set and leave it in your desk? I’d say that’s what 75% of my co-workers do – we rinse immediately after use and sometimes wash with soap. Since its just our own mouths that re-use, it doesn’t seem as gross as if I was using someones else’s with just a rinse.

      1. Leave it to Beaver*

        I’m irked, is all. I understand that you would not be. I also understand that perhaps you think I shouldn’t be irked. That won’t change the fact that I’m irked… for all the reasons I’ve mentioned above.

        1. ..Kat..*

          I think I understand. While I bring my own silverware to work, I don’t like being pushed by judgy people. Plus, some people make being green a competitive sport.

          I don’t wash my silverware at work. I take it home and put it in my dishwasher. Hand washing wastes a lot of water compared to dishwashers. Maybe you could put your concerned face on and bring this up!

    15. Triple Anon*

      Is she in a role that involves making these kinds of decisions? Reading between the lines, it sounds like she’s not and she’s over stepping her boundaries. It would be one thing for a new CEO or office manager to do this, but someone taking it upon themselves to run the office is not cool.

    16. Oxford Coma*

      I would not bring in my personal silverware. It belonged to my grandmother, and I would be devastated if it were lost or taken.

      I would go to a restaurant store and get generic stuff.

    17. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      I think someone else mentioned this and it doesn’t do much for your feeling of being irked, but could you office compromise on more eco friendly disposable flatware? They make compostable corn sets, bamboo sets, paper of some sort sets. Not as cheap as plstic but maybe would make everyone (reasonably) happy?

    18. AngelicGamer aka that visually impaired peep*

      Step 1. Roll eyes and go to buy a box of plastic silverware that would fit in a locked drawer in your desk.
      Step 2. When someone complains about no more plastic, offer 1 set (fork, knife, spoon) for x amount.
      Step 3. Profit.

      Or just step 1. Sorry you have to spend your money on it. It’s so freaking stupid to bring your own. Now, my mom does, but they do also have plastic at her workplace. Helps for when she’s in a pinch and forgot her spoon.

    19. BA*

      I work in a 9 person office and we have office plates and silverware. The silverware grosses me out so I keep a small box of plastic cutlery in my office so I don’t have to use the communal stuff.

  27. beanie beans*

    I had two phone interviews last week and they said they were trying to fill the position quickly and asked my start date. I said April 30th because of job commitments, they asked if it could be pushed up to the 16th or 23rd and I stuck with the 30th.

    The next round of interviews didn’t get scheduled until next week. So now even if they offered me the job right away, the 30th would be about a 2 week notice and I was hoping for at least 3 (my original date was based on 4).

    Did I screw myself by stating a date (the 30th) instead of the number of weeks I’d need to give notice? How do you deal with a moving start date if they are slow in the hiring process?

    1. Tara S.*

      You gave them an idea of when you would be available. If they make you an offer, just let them know that based on the speed of the hiring process, you will need a start date of X, so that you can give proper notice at your previous job. It’s unlikely that they’ll take back the offer just because you can’t start until a week later than you previously said. If you’re the candidate they want, they’ll wait, and it’s very reasonable for you to revise your date based on the hiring process.

    2. stej*

      You’ve learned a lesson here – give your start date relative to the offer date, not a calendar date. Despite that, you are still waiting on an offer and then you are in a position to negotiate. This is an item of negotiation — they’ll have to choose between having you later or not having you at all.

      1. Lumen*

        Stej is correct: get into the habit of saying “I can start work X weeks after offer” rather than a calendar date. That can also (if they are really interested in hiring you and need someone soon) light a bit of a fire under them to get their hiring process moving faster.

        If they call back and ask about the April 30th date, just speak plainly and tell them that starting date was based on your availability at the time of the interview. Then something like “For clarity, I can begin work X weeks after offer.” If they don’t ask about it, bring it up yourself. It’s important!

      2. einahpets*

        Yes, this — and I always frame it with the fact that I’d like to give sufficient time to transition over my projects to my employer. If a new employer can’t respect that, it is a red flag to me.

    3. beanie beans*

      Thank you all for your response – definitely a lesson learned for future interviews! (and for this one!) I’ve got some good starting places now on how to word it when/if the conversation about start dates come up next week.

  28. NotImportant*

    How soon after getting laid off should you except to get your personal belongings back?

    I was laid off unexpectedly last week and wasn’t allowed to pack up my personal belongings per company policy. HR said they’d mail all my personal belongings to me. As far as I know they haven’t shipped anything yet (I asked a coworker to text me when they do, but if she’s busy she might forget). I’m worried about if they’ll pack things carefully so that the breakable/damageable stuff doesn’t arrive ruined, and I’m wondering if they’ll actually send me everything that was mine (there were a few office supply type things I bought myself, but they might assume all office supplies were bought through the company). Just want to get my stuff back so I can stop worrying, but don’t know when to start following up.

    2. Murphy*

      I picked mine up instead of having it shipped, but I think I waited about 6 weeks before I was allowed to go back to the office to get my stuff.

      1. NotImportant*

        I would have preferred to pack my own stuff and drive it home (even if it meant coming in after hours or on the weekend) since I don’t trust most people to be careful with my stuff. I asked, and that wasn’t an option though.

        1. Murphy*

          They didn’t let me pack it, but they made me come get it. They didn’t give me the option of having it shipped.

    3. ThatGirl*

      It took me a month-ish to get mine, I think, and then another week for the rest; the really frustrating thing was that they DIDN’T carefully box the first thing and some small clay figures (cute little monsters with easily breakable horns and tails) got broken — even though I had small boxes for them in my desk, which were just tossed in with everything else. They didn’t even wrap the figures in tissue paper or anything! Just tossed them in a box with pens and staplers and other heavy and hard objects.

      But definitely you can follow up with HR and ask when to expect it.

      1. NotImportant*

        Sorry about your small clay monsters!!!! I would have been so mad about that. Such carelessness, incompetence and disrespect! Even if they didn’t have proper shipping supplies and didn’t see the little boxes, they could have at least made an attempt to wrap them up and cushion them with printer paper or paper towels. I can’t imagine just tossing a bunch of someone’s personal (breakable!) belongings in a box.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I’d just gotten over the whole being laid off thing in the first place and that just made me really upset. They’re all gifts from my husband, and although small and not expensive, hold great sentimental value and are unique objects.

          But, so it goes. I let off some steam in a polite but terse email to HR about packing them poorly, and now the monsters are lined up along my monitor here (I repaired them as best I could; one is permanently claw-less now) along with two new ones.

      2. Chaordic One*

        I had a friend who had similar problems when she was let go from a job. Several personal items were damaged and other items were missing and/or not included in the shipment including several CDs and DVDs. She ended up suing our former employer in small claims court. She won and our employer sent her a check. I think it was for something like $200. Her former supervisor included a note with a single word. It said:

        SORRY!

        (In all caps, no less.)

    4. SoCalHR*

      How long it will take depends on how busy the person responsible for it is (i.e. did they have to do a bunch of layoffs?). But it is fine to ask for an ETA (and then follow up after that date if it still hasn’t been done). Also, if you email them, maybe mention a few of the key items you for sure want to get back so the HR person can keep an eye out for them. No guarantees there of course, but some of us HR people are humans so we will be considerate of such a request :)

      1. NotImportant*

        I believe it was just me that got laid off. (They made up a new position and hired me, and then ended up eliminating the position because they didn’t have as much work as they thought they would.) I e-mailed HR so we’ll see what they say. :)

    5. Gerry*

      Unless you need them for a reference, I’d be very tempted to call the cops after another week and say they won’t give you your stuff — or threaten to. I think it’s unconscionable that they didn’t let you pack up your stuff and take it home the same day. I know Canada (where I live) is different from the States in many ways regarding what employers are allowed to do to employees, past, present and prospective, but any company that won’t let you bring home your own stuff is just immoral.

    6. A (former) Cad Monkey*

      I resigned (standard 2 week notice), told immediately to leave via the back door, and not allowed to pack my belongings. I waited in the elevator lobby until my stuff was boxed and brought out to me. Luckily I had already boxed and brought most of my personal items home because of a hurricane hitting my area.

  29. Free Meerkats*

    Found out to whom we will be reporting. Saga here: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/03/open-thread-march-23-24-2018.html#comment-1910029 and here: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/03/open-thread-march-30-31-2018.html

    It could be worse, much worse. And 2 senior managers will be doing the work of 3 while the organizational study and probable reorganization happen. Since we have a history of being low maintenance and competent, and our new senior manager knows that, he’ll probably let us run mostly on our own; as we have been. Though he does have occasional bouts of poking into things WAY below what he needs to, so we’ll have to keep that in mind.

  30. Denise*

    I’m curious to hear from people who are familiar with 360-degree feedback or even just two-way feedback between a manager and subordinate. I ask because while I’ve had some really excellent bosses, other have been not so great. Most recently I feel like there really is a need for some kind of upward (and maybe also horizontal) feedback here, but the “Do you have any additional comments” section of the performance evaluation didn’t seem like a genuine opening for that.

    Is it even worth it to risk giving “constructive feedback” to your supervisor, assuming it’s not something minor?

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I think it’s worth it, but I feel like the same rules should apply for 360 feedback as for performance evaluations – it’s not the place for surprises. I think constructive feedback (even to your supervisor) should be given in another context first, since it’s not fair that it could take them by surprise during an exercise that affects their job/potential for a raise.

      How honest you can be in both cases depends on your supervisor, and your relationship with them!

    2. PX*

      We had 360-degree feedback in my first job. It was…interesting. I struggled with it because the team was not very big and so it often felt like it would be obvious who said what. My boss was very open to criticism, but he also wouldnt really change (and didnt have control over many of the issues that took place) so it did feel a bit like screaming into a void (ie satisfying but ultimately useless).

      My new job doesnt really have 360-degree feedback – our evaluations are mostly at company level although there is room for suggestions. Some of those have been taken up by my manager, but some just seem to get discussed and then fall by the wayside. I think he could probably benefit from some feedback, but I’m not really sure if he would enjoy hearing it from an employee, so at the moment I tend to keep my mouth shut, or keep my feedback to operational issues really. Luckily he is generally quite okay, so I dont feel like I suffer too greatly by not being 100% honest.

    3. Hannah*

      That really depends on your supervisor.

      Mine asked for some feedback. She got it. She got defensive.

      The next time she asked for feedback, everyone just gave something really mild or like, “backhanded” feedback that was really a compliment. So, it was pretty much a waste of time because she did not make anyone feel comfortable enough to give honest answers.

  31. Tara S.*

    I’m running into a situation, any tips appreciated. The program manager I work closely with is a very nice lady. She’s worked at the University, in this department, for over 30 years. She has a ton of knowledge that I try and absorb and learn from, and has been encouraging to me.

    However. We do a lot of accounting management of grants, and I have noticed that she’s not always the best at details. For example: cost accounting principles state we should treat all like expenses the same. So, if we buy a book, we should put it in the accounting code “Books,” no matter which funding source is paying for it. But sometimes this program manager will put something under Books, and sometimes she’ll put it under Other Operating Expenses. Her reasoning is there is no actual line in our budget for books, but there is for supplies, so we should put it where we have money budgeted. But if we do have books budgeted, we can put it under Books. This breaks the accounting principle, and is what my previous coworker would have called “masking expenses.” In small amounts, not that likely to get us into trouble during an audit (the expense is allowable), but the practice is not great. I find inconsistencies like this when I’m looking back at older grants too.

    There are several examples like this, but here is my question: how do I know when to bring this up with someone else? I am new in this role, and on a learning curve. She has been here 30 years. But I have brought these examples up (not naming names) with other accountants and they have told me it’s not a great practice. I don’t know all the rules yet, and I do not want to throw the program manager under the bus. We work closely together and our working relationship is important. How do I know when it’s time to push back on something I know isn’t quite right? I don’t want to assert that I know better than the program manager, but I’m pretty sure about this one.

    1. Denise*

      Others may feel differently, but I think the fact that she has held her job for so long indicates that whomever is supervising her is either unconcerned or unwilling to do anything about it. I wouldn’t approach anyone else about her in particular. However, you could speak to whomever you report to and share your observations about how various expenses are recorded and how you think it could potentially cause problems. You needn’t throw the program manager under the bus. Just keep it focused on your understanding of accounting principles and your desire to make sure *you* are most accurately recording items.

      1. Tara S.*

        Thanks! For context, the Director and Senior Admin Officer who are the Program Manager’s supervisors have only been here about 2 years, and they are probably unlikely to be in the weeds of the books like I am. It’s possible they do not know about this.

    2. Tmarie*

      As an accountant for over 30 years, I’d give a severe side eye to anyone who told me I was “breaking accounting principles”. And honestly, a book can be specified as an operating expense. And, how each grant sets up their budget is a deciding factor on how to code expenses. I would let this go unless you are also responsible for setting up budget line items.

    3. TGIF*

      It’s a matter of materiality*. No funder cares whether one $50 book purchased on a $100,000 grant is charged to the book sub-account. They absolutely care if $50,000 in books on a $100,000 grant is charged to the book sub-account. Those are extreme examples – the line between them is a matter of professional judgment.

      *Unless this is specifically defined by the grant terms.

      (Former university accountant responsible for ~$7M in grant funds covered by A-21 annually.)

      1. Tara S.*

        I think part of my issue is the office where I was before, where I was trained, had an accountant who was very thorough and VERY about following all rules. You’re definitely right that a few books out of category (although they are technically sensitive expenditures here) are not really a big deal, and won’t make a funder angry. But my old office bent over backwards to keep all documentation up-to-date, and made sure we were not only following all rules at all times (e.g., receipts for everything, even if it was under the University’s $40 threshold), but that we were documenting any exceptions. The office where I am now (same University) doesn’t ask for that level of detail.

        I understand we have materiality standards, but I am trying to feel out what level of internal controls I should have for myself. I get that my old office had a standard that most would find untenable, but my impression of the new office is that things are so lax? Not sure how to feel out a happy medium.

  32. De Minimis*

    Phone interview this morning with my former employer. Had to call out from work during our yearly audit, but had no choice to reschedule. My current job plans to significantly cut my salary later this summer, and then lay me off early next year, so it’s time to get out.

    The job is almost exactly the same as the one I left, though it’s in a different location. I think my chances are good, though I think it’s going to be tough to avoid burning bridges at my current job since I’m having to call out at almost the worst possible time in order to do this interview. I feel guilty, even though I know I need to focus on finding the next job.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      To be fair, there’s never a good time for the employee to cut a salary or lay them off. Your current job should be understanding of your need to find something else.

      Good luck!

      1. De Minimis*

        I’ve heard some other managers are being difficult with letters of recommendation for other employees who are being laid off soon, they agree to write them, but they will put that the employee isn’t available until their layoff date….

        The culture is very touchy-feely non-profit, and they go on and on about how supportive they’re going to be to those who are being cut, but their actions speak louder than words.

    3. k.k*

      Your job is slashing your salary and then laying you off. If they’re shocked and offended that you are job hunting and looking out for yourself, they are idiots. If they really didn’t want you taking time off for interviews during this busy period, they should have waited until after to tell you. Anyone in your position would be doing the exact same thing.

    4. Irene Adler*

      IN the job world, only you have your best interests at heart. No one else will. No matter what an employer might say. Your guilt is misplaced.

      Do what ever you have to here, to keep the income flowing. Companies do this, why can’t you?

  33. Josefa*

    Attention to detail is a crucial part of the position that we are hiring for. When interviewing, how would we assess if a candidate is detail-oriented? Should we give them tasks to do during the interview? If so, what kind of tasks, and how long should they be? Most of the administrative tasks that we do include setting up memberships, processing registrations, updating payment information, setting up billing schedules, and transferring data between different Excel spreadsheets. A lot of our previous new hires ended up not being particularly detail-oriented, and had difficulty understanding basic/integral concepts. How can we avoid this in the future?

    1. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      Do you ask for examples of work tasks/projects/experience where they had to be very detail oriented, and then drill down into what detail oriented means to them and what they actually did?

      1. Tara S.*

        ^. You can ask for an example of a time they had to do something where attention to detail was very important, and then ask about strategies they used. I’m not sure of a great test…excel data entry?

    2. Admin of Sys*

      Ask about a time when they weren’t detail oriented enough and how they addressed it? That way, you’ll get a feel for what they actually consider ‘detail oriented’ to entail. For example. the difference between ‘I accidentally sent a finance spreadsheet to the wrong manager, and when we did the monthly review, I realized and followed up by doing x’ vs ‘I was double-checking my manager’s schedule for the next month, and realized I hadn’t given him the 15 minute break between meetings he usually likes to have and did x to resolve’

    3. LizB*

      I think you can have someone do a quick model task — maybe set up a membership using example information, then input relevant information into a spreadsheet? You say that previous hires didn’t understand the integral concepts. Can you drill down to what those integral concepts are, and then design a 10-minute task with fake data that will test whether or not they get those?

    4. zora*

      You can have a 10-15 minute practical test in addition to the interview, that is totally reasonable.

      I would honestly create 2 sample forms for different things they would be inputting and a test database/spreadsheet and have them actually enter a few records. Not make it a timed test, but note how long it took each applicant to finish, and check for accuracy and note # of errors afterward. Base it on the actual things they would be doing and the actual kinds of things that you have had errors in in the past.

  34. Nervous Accountant*

    Ok so this happened last night but it’s been about a month + of other issues.

    background–we each have a team that consists of support and accountants. I’m supervisor of my accounting team staff but the support staff themselves also have a supervisor (Supports supervisor). so supports technically have 2 supervisors, the accting supervisor and support staff supervisor.

    so last night i went to ask my support staff something, and she put up her finger and said “can you email me only.”

    yall, hear me out on why this is A THING.

    NO ONE HERE DOES THAT.

    Even if you’re in the middle of a conversation or task, there’s a million ways to get around it professionally. Interruptions happen all the time and we find ways to manage them and get our work done. It’s not ideal but that’s just how it is.

    NO ONE EVER SAYS “can you email me only.”

    IMO–even when done with peers or someone who reports to you, it’s rude, it’s dismissive, and unprofessional IMO. much less saying that to a supervisor. It’s my understanding that if your supervisor/manager/team leader/boss comes to talk to you, you talk to them.

    I was having small issues w her beforehand so my mgr was in the loop. He told me to speak to the supports supervisor. i spoke to SS and he said that there’s a very very very high likelihood that she’ll be gone after the deadline, but he’ll talk to her if i push it.

    I thought about it but then decided that what’s going to happen after is irrelevant. she may very well quit, but she may not, so acting on it now is not a bad move. I just hope it’s a right move.

    1. Tara S.*

      This might have been bad phrasing on her part. Maybe (and maybe not, hard to know tone), she has trouble remember all parts of a task and would rather have requests in writing? This is a poor way to ask for it, but it’s my first impression. Then again, if she’s already had problems…

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Nope she talks to everyone else. I don’t mind using email or IM, but my issue is when you demand it only from me and not anyone else, plus the tone was really dismissive.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          I could be totally off base, but … is there any chance you are a rambler or complainer? You are probably completely not but – I know my boss did this recently with one of his employees who is a think-out-loud person, because he was getting really impatient with this person’s verbal processing. I hope that’s not your situation but wanted to put it out there.

    2. JeanB in NC*

      I much prefer email only but I have not been able to figure out a way to say that. I can say that I prefer it, but I can’t make people do it.

      The main problem for me is when someone comes to see me about something that I’ll have to look up. If they sent me an email, I could look up the problem before I see them. (There’s also the fact that when they wear way too much perfume in my office, I have an allergy attack. My boss won’t let me tell people who are wearing perfume to not come to my office unless I have a doctor’s note, but my doctor won’t write the note for something as vague as “perfume”.)

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I’m like that too, I like emails a lot more but w clients, not coworkers.

        I mean I’m not bothered by that preference but there’s a nice way to say it even if it’s unusual in our office culture. Snapping at a supervisor isn’t acceptable IMO.

        I’ve been yelled and screamed at by those who reported to me or were peers so this raises my shackles a lot.

    3. E*

      If she was asking for an email as written backup for instructions/questions from you, that’d be fine. It seems very odd that she doesn’t want to interact in person at all.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Yes as backup is fine…but I had just stood up and said her name (everyone here including her! does that so it’s not out of line) and she said that.

        I know this incident may not seem so odd to ppl here but I guess it’s one of those office culture things I guess?

        99.9% she quits after deadline but i feel like that shouldn’t be relevant.

    4. SarahTheEntwife*

      Oh yeah, that’s super weird.

      Is there any chance she was just being abrupt and unclear and meant “can you email me whatever it is because I’m in the middle of something super finicky”?

    5. Irregular Oreos*

      Is there chance you’re a low talker, or have an accent that she’s having trouble understanding? I had a colleague once, this unbelievably sweet and smart fellow, whose accent was so thick we all had trouble understanding him. His written English was much better so there were a few cases where he would launch into a highly technical explanation, and I would kindly ask him if he could email me the details instead (under the guise of “it’s always better to have technical stuff in writing”, which wasn’t false.)

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Nope and nope. I’m Loud voiced lol and born and raised here (NYC) so no accent here.

        I Would totally agree if that was the case and I’ve used that tactic w people I had a hard time understanding.

    6. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Ugh, I used to be in an accounting firm, and that’s where I think you are. That was WAY out of line for her to say/do that. Those environments you’re always talking/iming/email/whatever everyone, so NOT doing it for any reason is going to stand out. The week I was sick and lost my voice it was really obvious in the workflow. Her only doing it to you is bad.

      Hope the deadline is soon, if you’re US Tax, just 10 days left.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      “Can you email me only?”

      “No, I can’t. I am not able to do that.”

      One thing I have had to train my brain is to answer forthright questions in an equally forthright manner. Notice here that I limited my answer. I did not expand on general norms for the office and so on. I so get that this question felt insulting to you. I would probably feel insulted myself. By limiting my answer to the EXACT question that is asked, I am forcing her to either talk about her ACTUAL problem or give it up entirely.

      See, we can know that there is a larger underlying story behind the question. Perhaps we are not sure what the story is but we know there are issues. She is not dealing with the actual issue and that is apparent here. At this point I shift and answer the exact question that is asked. Up to people to sort their issues and discuss them in an adult manner.

      This also works well with manipulative bosses, slow down, actually listen to the exact question being asked and answer the exact question that is being asked. (Sorry, over use of the word “exact” to make a point. I used to panic in some situations that felt like no win situations. I had to tell myself over and over, listen to the words of the question. Respond to the actual question, do not respond to what I THINK the question might be.)

      One last point and I think you know this on some level. You out rank her. Your NO has weight. I understand that most people do not want to say NO to everything. But there is nothing wrong with Wise and Sparing use of the NO word.

  35. ALH*

    I’m curious if anyone has any thoughts on or experience with taking a step back in your career, temporarily or permanently. Two years ago I was promoted into a position that was an almost ideal mix of supervisory duties and continuing to do some of the work I really love. These positions are hard to come by and another opportunity probably won’t present itself any time soon. However, in the last few months my duties have really changed, and I am no longer doing any of the work I really love and am finding that I am not really enjoying or suited for supervising (I’m not terrible at it, but I was in a really fortunate position where I was passionate about what I did and really enjoyed it, and now that’s gone). An opportunity may present itself soon to take a step back to a more working level position, without the supervisory aspects. I know without a doubt I would enjoy the work more, and the difference in pay would be manageable, but I am concerned about taking a step backwards, when steps forward are few and far between. I am not necessarily very ambitious, and have no interest in climbing the ladder much higher than where I am — fulfilling, interesting work is much more important to me. I make good money and have good benefits no matter what, and am not really interested in moving away from this workplace. So I’m just interested to know if anyone else has done something similar, how it worked out, etc. Thanks!

    1. OtterB*

      I wouldn’t think of it as taking a step back. I’d think of it as focusing on the tasks you most enjoy and do best.

    2. LBG*

      I did that, although I transferred to another part of the organization (more HQ than field). I went from supervising 15 to none, but since I went to a HQ policy oriented position, I’m able to spin it as more of a lateral move. Even if I couldn’t, it was the best move for my sanity. I am so much happier now, and my work is meaningful – supervising is important, but I definitely prefer substantive work.

    3. Thlayli*

      As PP said don’t think of it as a step back. It sounds like the new job would be a better fit for you, you would enjoy it more, and you are happy with the money.

      I took a few years out to be a stay at home mother and I took a job after that that was less responsibility and less money than my previous role. It suits me better for this stage of my life, the work-life balance is better, and I enjoy the work and find it much easier than my old job. And waaay less stressful.

      Money isn’t everything. I’m very happy in my current position and I don’t see myself trying to “climb the ladder” again till my kids are much older.

      Do what makes you happy.

  36. Kaittastic*

    I’m a new supervisor of about 10 employees. About 90% of my employees speak English as a second language. Everyone understands English but some of them I occasionally use a translator to communicate. My problem is that I there have been times in the past that other employees in other departments will make a negative comment on my employees speaking skills. One individual told a customer that “she doesn’t speak English” when a customer tried to talk to her. My employee was very upset because she understood everything that was said. Recently, I had an employee who needed help with some paperwork and went to HR to clarify some things. She got confused by the secretary and asked me to talk to her. When I talked to the secretary, she became very upset and complained about the “language barrier”. She began to say something else and instead said “hmmm, no. I’ll keep that comment to myself”. I was really surprised by her reaction. My staff often go to HR for help with understanding benefits and flma questions and other things like that and I’m concerned that she’s treating them poorly because of their lack of English or their accent (it’s sometimes hard to understand but they all know enough English to carry a basic conversation). I’m upset by her comment and don’t know if I should tell her boss (my HR representative) and I also need advice on how to handle further comments from other staff members who think that my staff don’t understand English.

    1. N.J.*

      How about something like

      These are valuable members of my staff and of this company. They support import functions for our business’ success, just like you and I. I understand that there can be some communication difficulties and misunderstandings, but I expect my staff to be treated with the same level of respect and courtesy that you treat everyone else around here with. If you are having difficulty communicating, then we all need to be flexible in our approaches. If written language is causing the misunderstanding, please talk to my staff in person. If it is a verbal issue in which they can’t understand what you are saying, please slow down (if you are talking quickly), enunciate and try different words or terms until the message gets across. If you can’t understand what one of my staff members is saying, please just be patient and try asking clarifying questions. If there is really and truly such a high communication barrier that your interactions aren’t productive, then I can mediate as necessary to the best of my ability. A basic grasp of English (or whatever level is true for your staff) is required for my team members. That doesn’t mean all communications will be perfect, but it does mean that being dismissive of their attempts to communicate just because it is more difficult than interacting with a native English speaker impacts their ability to do their jobs or understand what’s going on and impacts my ability to trust that you will assist my staff members as helpfully and effectively as I know you can”

      That might be more for the hr person that was rude, but maybe you could adapt bits and pieces for interacting with other staff and departments and their supervisors to get the point across.

    2. Bea*

      PLEASE tell the bosses of anyone acting like that. They are hurting your valuable staff AND putting the company at risk. You cannot discriminate over national origin.

      Being part of HR means you hold hands when necessary and you treat everyone well. The secretary needs retraining and canned if she cannot put a lid on her attitude. This is unacceptable. You treat everyone employed with you respectfully. No leeway.

      You say “they speak English, you work around their limitations.” I’ve worked with ESL all my career. From Russians to Mexicans to Germans. They know 2 languages, anyone who can’t respect that ability is awful and needs to be taken out of any administrative role.

    3. Yorick*

      I agree with the other responses, and I also think it’s important to show your employees that you support them and think these comments are uncalled for (when they hear them).

    4. Kuododi*

      As a person who has worked with the Spanish speaking immigrant community for all of my professional life, I can safely say I have probably heard every variation of racist comment on people’s ability to communicate. I am not the best at providing scripts.for following up with your personnel. The one thing I would say is what I was told by my mentor back in seminary. Always lend your strength and voice on the side of the people who are weakest and most need support. Best wishes!!!!

  37. Nervous Nellie*

    Any advice on speaking to an employee who intimidates you? I manage a tiny team of two administrative employees in a small company. Around one particular employee I find myself dreading conversations and having an uncontrollable reaction during conversations where I get flushed, speak too quickly (although she doesn’t seem to have trouble understanding my fast pace, thankfully), and wind up physically shaking. I don’t have this problem with my other employee, co-workers, or my boss. I participate in group chit chat with this employee and my other employee just fine. This only happens when I have to act as her manger and speak to her about something work-related. It’s pretty much the same feeling/fear I used to get whenever I had to do public speaking so I’m not sure how much this is because she intimidates me versus a general self-consciousness and overthinking things when interacting with her. I know this is just a mental block and I haven’t let this interfere with doing my job and talking to her when I have to, but I hate having to psych myself up for it every time.

    What I’ve tried is mentally rehearsing what I’m going to say ahead of time and sometimes I come up with bullet points to make sure I can stick to what I want to say and don’t get sidetracked, but I still wind up very nervous in the moment. Plus I am thrown off when she says something unexpected, which regularly happens as she tends to get defensive even when receiving normal instruction. I either get one of two responses from her: an argument or a silent blank stare followed by an overly enthusiastic, “OK!”

    I should note that this employee used to be my co-worker before I was recently promoted and she made it very clear to our boss that she was angry and hurt that she wasn’t considered for my new role. We’re talking crying and shouting at him in many after-hour meetings. She’s also the type of person who brings her personal problems to the office, so I never know what mood she’s going to be in when I have to approach her. We didn’t have any issues in the 10+ years we worked together as co-workers before this, but then again we didn’t have much reason to interact other than idle chit chat and I knew to give her space if she was clearly having a bad day. Things have been strained between us since my promotion but I’d hoped her resentment would abate in the 8+ months since I took on this role, aided by the generous raise she received as appeasement for her hurt feelings. However, about two months ago she tried to file a formal complaint against me for a seemingly (to me and to my other employee who witnessed it) innocuous conversation we had about a project she was working on. Our boss dismissed her complaint as completely unfounded but I’ve been on edge ever since. I find her emotional unpredictability exhausting and extremely off putting and I feel I have no gauge for when she’ll completely misinterpret an interaction like that again. I try to keep most of our interactions to email so I have documentation, plus I express myself best that way, but the nature of our work is that I sometimes need to speak to her in person. Any advice on how not to appear to be a nervous wreck and to stay focused when I do?

    1. Crazy Work Drama*

      Oof. That’s rough.

      For the record, I don’t think you’re overthinking this. She’s clearly unpleasant to work with and is harboring resentment towards you. That would make anyone uncomfortable. Normally, I’d suggest talking with her to see if there’s anything you can do to make her more comfortable. But I don’t think that would be successful here.

      The only thing I can suggest is just be over and beyond professional. Maybe even follow up any conversation with an email covering what you spoke about so in case there’s another complaint you at least have documentation over what was said.

      1. Nervous Nellie*

        It’s actually reassuring to hear that you don’t think I’m completely nuts here! I think I will try your suggestion of following up on conversations with an email. Not only will it cover my butt, I’ll also be able to clarify or expand on something if I rushed through it or neglected to say it in person.

        Of course, being overly professional also isn’t working with her because she just gave me feedback yesterday that she thinks I don’t want to talk to her since I’ve been emailing her assignments and follow ups. As usual, I was thrown off but tried to reassure her that it’s no reflection on her (kind of a lie) and that she shouldn’t read anything into it. Just that it’s a method that works best for me but that my door’s always open for questions.

        Frustratingly, my boss has tried to talk to her and she denies she has any resentment or issues with me. So I agree; asking her if there’s anything I can do to make her more comfortable probably won’t work here.

        1. Crazy Work Drama*

          Sorry, I should have been clearer. The being overly professional is to *your* benefit. If you’re only seen as being professional to her any crazy accusation she has won’t stick.

          It’s not on you to fix her attitude. It’s on her to work through her resentment or find a new job. All you can do is maintain what you’re doing. As long as you’re professional and treat her fairly, any way she tries to retaliate won’t do anything. And if your boss has talked to her and she’s denied feeling that way, there’s not much else can be done.

          My only other suggestion (and this comes with a huge caveat that it may not work) is to just continue on talking to her like she is friendly and there is no resentment. I’ve done it a couple times and, hoo boy, it can be awkward. But one of two things happens…they either come around OR look like an absolute jerk when they continually complain. It takes a lot of work and is not easy.

          But since you mentioned that she’s always had issues with bring in her own drama, I don’t know that this will work either. Some people just like being miserable. And as a family friend used to say: “They’ll either get over it or die mad.”

          1. Nervous Nellie*

            Aah, that makes total sense. Thank you for the clarification. I have been careful to do everything as professionally as possible with her, especially since the (non) incident, so will continue that. I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment that she probably just likes being miserable. It’s funny; now that there’s another employee in the office who happens to be very chatty I’m discovering more about my former co-worker’s life from their/our conversations and, to be frank, she sounds absolutely miserable. Everything is a burden or an annoyance, from dealing with her teenage daughter (OK, that one’s understandably going to be an annoyance at times) to lawn maintenance to buying deli cheese. I guess I just don’t really care enough to vent about it at work when my cheese winds up stuck together. Like… is that something that should even occupy more than 30 seconds of my thoughts? Anyway, it’s clear we’re very different people but I’ll just keep reminding myself that I can’t control anyone else’s feelings. Especially not in this case.

    2. LKW*

      I had a similar experience many years ago, I was promoted over several older co-workers, who had been at the job longer than I. Mostly because I showed up every day and did all of my work. Still, there was a lot of resentment with one in particular.

      My advice is
      1 always have a witness. She’s unstable and prone to misinterpretation.
      2. Practice! Practice! Practice! saying what needs to be said. Practice a few choice phrases to kick start the discussion and practice a few de-escalation phrases like “I can see you’re upset. I’ll send my request via email but if you’d like to discuss it, we can (in front of a witness!).”

      1. Nervous Nellie*

        Thank you for the advice. I was so grateful that my other employee happened to be there when this happened because our boss was out of the office. I’ll make a point to always wait until someone else is around. I really like the tip about preparing a few key phrases, especially to help shut things down if the conversation goes off course. I’ll come up with a few this weekend so I’ll feel better prepared for next week.

        1. Wester Egg*

          “crying and shouting at him in many after-hour meetings”
          “aided by the generous raise she received as appeasement for her hurt feelings”

          What?! She sounds ridiculously unprofessional. I would try not to feel guilty at all about getting the promotion over her. Sounds like it was for a very good reason.

          One thing that also helps me is to *start* an interaction the way I want it to go. So I’ll start the meeting/conversation/whatever by being super upbeat and smiley, which somehow helps me stay that way the entire time. Something about the momentum and taking control of the situation.

          You are her manager, right? I think you can also have a broader conversation about the pattern you’re seeing about her behavior towards you. Alison has a lot of scripts for those.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You are saying you mentally rehearse. I am not sure what that entails. You may benefit from rehearsing out loud if you are not doing it already. We have to get used to the sound of our voices as bosses. Stand in front of a mirror at home and say, “Sally, we will need to have X done by Thursday” and whatever other things you can think of to practice. Listen to yourself say these instructive types of things.

      Go back to your boss and tell him that you are still experiencing a discomfort in speaking with her. Let him know that you see a huge need to have an email trail for the conversations. This is a heck of a way to have to work, it’s encumbered and it’s burdensome. You don’t have to say that last sentence to your boss, it sounds like your boss will instantly grasp this.

      Let your boss know that you are getting the blank stares or the overly emphatic okay! when you give her basic instruction. She comes across as insincere and you are not certain if she will do the task or blow up or argue with you. This is not okay behavior, this is failure to accept supervision. As supervisors/managers we get our power from our bosses. Your boss may need to tell her again that you are her supervisor and blank stares or exaggerated okays are not acceptable responses. He may need to review the fact that part of her compensation is her willingness to get along with EVERYONE.

      You can’t supervise a person you are afraid of and that is the core issue. Get a feel from your boss what behaviors are write-ups and what behaviors are dismissable offenses. Put the time in learning this, it won’t take long and it will help you in the long run. If need be ask him how much of the arguing or blank stares you should put up with before escalating.

      I had one boss who was a so-so boss. My subordinate was doing a stunt on break time where he could really get hurt. I told him to stop. He flat out refused and told others proudly that he refused to stop. I went to my boss. My average type boss amazingly said to my subordinate, “She is YOUR boss. If you cannot follow her instructions and you cannot stop arguing with her, then you can find another job.” Our authority and power come from our bosses. Once subordinates see that we have backing some situations melt away.

    4. Feliz*

      You not talking to her sounds like it’s a big deal for her which probably isn’t helping the overall dynamic. I hate to say it, but unless you are a fantastic actor she probably picked up that you weren’t being especially truthful when you said that it’s no reflection on her.

      Can you have more, low stakes conversations with her? That way you get to practice talking with her, without the pressure of a serious conversation. Can you be deliberate about it – like “this week every 2nd follow up I’ll do with her in person”?

      Can you think about ways not to be thrown off course when you do have conversations? Can you come up with some bland phrases like “Hmm, interesting, I’ll have a think about that and get back to you, but in the meantime I really need to know about Project X” or whatever. Just focus on hearing what she’s saying but then keep on in the direction you need. You will need to get back to her later with a quick “I thought about what you said on Tues and ——” fill in the blank.

      Good luck – she sounds pretty difficult!

  38. RoseTico*

    Any advice on what to do when your manager won’t look at the shared staff calendar and keeps booking meeting or programs that overlap with what has already been scheduled? The rest of the staff is very good at putting their days off or when they will be out of the office for meetings/conferences/etc as well as whenever they’ve scheduled (and confirmed in email AND in person with manager) a program or meeting in our location. We only have one meeting/programming room. For the past month however, our manager (despite telling us all the time to put it on the shared calendar) never looks at it and claims that it wasn’t on the calendar. For a while I thought maybe they were looking at the wrong Outlook calendar so I asked them to pull it up. Nope, it was the correct calendar the rest of us use. It’s getting frustrating because we then have to cancel or modify our already approved programs for theirs every single time. We’ve talked to them about this already and have even set up regular meetings with manager to make sure everyone is aware of all the dates already booked so no one overlaps but even after this, they STILL won’t look at the calendar when asked by other people if an event can be held on certain day/time. At this point we are completely frustrated because for two of us, it is our job (and not actually the manager’s) to plan events and programs. We don’t know what to do to get our manager to just look at the calendar first before scheduling an event. It seems like overkill though to go to THEIR boss over something like this as it seems like a common sense thing.

    Any advice would be great.

    1. Short & Dumpy*

      Just because we had SO many people trying to use the same rooms, we created calendars for the rooms as if they were people. If you tried to invite the room to a mtg, it would reject the invitation if it was already scheduled.

      Worked really well.

      2. ThatGirl*

        I’ve worked at two largeish companies now that work that way – all of our conference rooms are in Outlook, and you can see if they’re booked or not and then book it yourself.

      3. dear liza dear liza*

        But it sounds like that’s what the OP has. Manager won’t look at the room calendar.

        1. Murphy*

          It sounds like their calendar accepts the event though. Ours will reject it. If manager’s really not paying attention, then it won’t work, but they might notice.

        2. Short & Dumpy*

          It’s not a calendar you look at for us (well, you can look at it), it’s a reservation system that rejects duplicates. You must send a mtg invite to an email address for that room (or resource…we use it for things like conference lines too) just like you would send a mtg invite to Jane Smith.

        3. RoseTico*

          Yes, we have a internal staff calendar on Outlook and then an events calendar for the public as well. When you put an event on the public calendar, it does pop up with a message telling you if you overlap any time with a message. But if you enter in a program to start at 6:30 when another ends at 6:30, there’s no message to alert you of this and then there is no time in between to clean up or set up. And yes all the events show up when you choose what day you want to schedule something…..but not if you’re in a hurry to put this up. What we’re supposed to do is check the staff calendar first to make sure your program doesn’t overlap with anyone elses and THEN put it on the public calendar. Instead, manager is just completely bypassing it.

    2. LizB*

      It sounds like a lot of the problem events your manager is booking are being planned by people external to your building/department. Any chance you can get your manager to start redirecting all scheduling requests to you or your other coworker who’s supposed to do scheduling? If you can retrain her away from an automatic “Sure, we can do that” and into “That sounds like a great idea but RoseTico manages our space, please call her to see when you could do that,” that would be a step in the right direction.

    3. zora*

      I would do one of two things:
      1) Find a different solution. They say they will look at the calendar and don’t. So, looking at the calendar is clearly not a good option. Be VERY blunt with them that this is not working, lay out the problems this is causing you each time, and that you need to find a different solution. Is it putting someone else in charge of scheduling, boss agrees to forward the emails to that person every time? Is it, you send a PDF of the calendar to them each morning? There needs to be a different solution at this point, accept that they are NOT going to look at the calendar.

      2) Just accept that this is my life now. Rescheduling every event multiple times. And just get okay with the fact that this is what they are paying me for, is to clean up Boss’s messes by rescheduling events. I know it’s easier said than done, but in a situation with a boss who refused to listen, this is what I had to do and it was more about me not being constantly frustrated and angry than it was about fixing the problem. I had to put my mental health first and just accept that this is the reality of the job.

      I’m sorry, I realize it’s a super frustrating position. Best of luck !

  39. Bee's Knees*

    So with the cross section of people that work here, my job gets interesting sometimes. So far this week:

    Monday, My coworker, Fergus, got into a (public) argument with boss’s boss’s boss about how he wants a raise. It ends with Fergus (early 50s) telling BBB (70s?) that he works a lot, to which BBB replies that he does too. Fergus replied that at least *his* productivity had gone up. This was not a closed door meeting, this was in an open office with several others present. According to Boss, BBB wasn’t really bothered by this exchange, but we should expect Fergus to blow his top soon.

    Another coworker, Farquad, has been coughing a lot lately, but we’ve all tried to ignore it. On Tuesday, he’s sitting there, acting like he’s about to hack up a lung. Just as I’m about to ask if he’s ok, he throws up, in his hand, at his desk. He sits there for a few seconds longer than I would think someone would in this situation, and then proceeds to go to the bathroom and loudly… express himself. I could hear it from my desk, which is a good 20-30 ft. from the bathroom. Lovely. He then left for a couple of hours, and then came back to spread germs.

    On Wednesday, Farquad gets called to the front by the receptionist because there was someone here to see him, not unusual in our business. So he gets back and said that this lady asked if he was Farquad, and when he said yes, said that she was going to turn him over her knee, but he might like it.

  40. Amber Rose*

    So, we’re moving in the next couple months and my boss took me out to take a look at the new place. It makes our current place look like a closet. But whoever worked there before was either very anal, or very bored. Everything is labelled. The garbage cans say GARBAGE, the coat hooks say COATS, the desks have a label that says PENS AND NOTEBOOKS and then the draws below that are labelled PENS and NOTEBOOKS. Even the whiteboards say WHITEBOARD. And then the floors are all taped off into labelled sections (drains, fire extinguishers, etc.) It’s amazing. I’m so glad I didn’t have to work with that person. I can just imagine the AAM letter. :D

    I’m a little apprehensive about this move, there are good and bad things about this place and I’m a little unsure as to how much of my processes have to be re-written, but it’s literally five minutes from my house and ten minutes from a major shopping center, which I’m looking forward to.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      In the lobby of our building are two receptacles that have signs saying, “This is not a garbage can.” Neither item looks like it should be confused for a garbage can, but I assume the signs were posted for a reason. If only I had thought to label other random objects (desks, trees, chairs) as “this is not a garbage can” as an April Fool’s joke!

    2. N.J.*

      Believe it or not, I work in a manufacturing environment where even the offices are labeled thus way. It’s someyhimg a bunch of folks carried over from Lean/Six Signs here. They got s bit carried away, but it does make it super easy to find stuff.

      1. Buckeye*

        Same! I used to work for a company that took six sigma very, very seriously. We had an admin who insisted on every single piece of company property being labeled, so the staplers said “stapler” and the tape said “tape”.

    3. LKW*

      My guess, someone got a new label maker and had super duper amounts of fun with it or used it to avoid doing anything else that day.

    4. Marketing LadyPA*

      They were probably a company that was audited for Lean / 5S compliance. This is common in manufacturing.

  41. Junior Dev*

    I keep sleeping through my alarm, even when I go to bed early. I have to be at work on time next week because my boss ( who works remotely) is visiting… any tips?

    1. Nonymous*

      Put your alarm across the room, so you have to get up to turn it off. Plus, turn it up loud.

      1. o.b.*

        I’ve had tremendous success with apps that make you solve math problems before you can turn your alarm off. For iPhone I use Rocket Alarm. You can set the complexity of the math problems, and it also has a bunch of other ginmicky puzzles (like, alarm won’t turn off until you shake the phone really fast or take a pic smiling) that I’ve never bothered with

        1. o.b.*

          And this is free (I think), and you can get it instantly. So it’s not a big investment (what if you get a fancy thing that doesn’t work for you?)

    2. Curious Cat*

      Set multiple alarms, either on your phone or on both phone/actual alarm clock. Or you could get one of those alarm clocks that’s a weight-censored pad on the floor and you have to stand on it to turn it off.

    3. Localflighteast*

      I find my fit bit alarm that vibrates on my wrist is much more effective than an audible one, maybe try that >?

    4. k.k*

      I’ve seen alarms that are specially designed with heavy sleepers in mind. Things like one on wheels you have to chase around to turn off, ones with flashing lights, sonic boom sounds…the list goes one. Most sound obnoxious and I wouldn’t use them every day, but might be worth picking up for rare occasions like this.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I really want to try those ones that start like, flashing lights and birdsong an hour before you wake up, then slowly increase as you get closer to the actual wake up period.

        1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

          I just got one of those and I LOVE IT. It’s one where the light goes up gradually to simulate the sunrise, and then when it’s actually time to get up, it starts chirping. My issue is that I hit the snooze too much, and then am always really groggy by the time I have to get up. And it’s murder dragging my ass out of bed in the winter. This doesn’t have the option to snooze until the birds start chirping, and at that point, I’m awake so I just get up. It was only like $35, but even so worth every penny.

          My husband is a sleep-through-the-alarm person, and sometimes it wakes him up & sometimes not.

          2. Little Bean*

            Question: do these work if you have 2 people who have to wake up at different times? My partner and I have different work schedules and different levels of flexibility in how late we are. I guess my question is, can you sleep through it if you want to or will it wake you up no matter what?

            1. anon24*

              My husband has one of these. Some days I am up before him and other days I get to sleep for a few more hours. The light doesn’t wake me up at all and some mornings I briefly wake up at the birds chirping and go right back to sleep and some mornings I just sleep right through them.

    5. Heather*

      There’s an alarm called Clocky that has wheels on it and you can set it so when it goes off, it rolls around the room and you have to chase it down to turn it off.

    6. CTT*

      Set multiple alarms, and put it across the room so you have to get up. Also, if by “going to bed early” you mean that you are actually going to sleep early and still having trouble waking up, you should probably run it by your doctor.

    7. bohtie*

      I find the alarm on my fitbit (I just bought the cheapest one they make specifically for this purpose) does a better job than clock/phone. My old roommate was Deaf, and he has an alarm clock that included a thing that went under his mattress and actually vibrated the bed itself.

    8. Reba*

      Two alarms: the first one starts the wake up sequence, and by the time the second goes my willpower has come online and I can actually get out of bed.

    9. D.W.*

      In addition to all the other suggestions, I would set your alarm an hour earlier than it’s currently set, so that if you sleep through it you still have time to get ready and be on time. Take all precautions!

    10. anon24*

      Have you tried one of those “sun light” alarms? My husband would sleep through his alarms all the time, but they woke me up, and I was always smacking him awake yelling at him to shut the darn thing off. He would snooze it for 5 and then I’d be back to telling him to shut it up. Sometimes this would go on for 2 hours. People on one of the Friday threads were talking about them and I impulse bought him one. He loves it. It takes 30 minutes to get to full brightness, and then when it hits full brightness birds start chirping. When I sleep later than him the brightness doesn’t effect me at all, but it wakes him up and he says he feels more awake during the day since using it.

    11. Knotty Ferret*

      For a free option, the Android app Timely has a setting where you have to correctly answer a basic math problem or correctly draw a pattern to turn it off or snooze. It’s the only way I manage to not turn off the alarm in my sleep (though the run away clock isn’t one I’ve tried yet).

    12. anonagain*

      In college during finals week I used an alarm for people who are hard of hearing. It has a disk that goes under the mattress and shakes your bed and it sounds like a fire alarm. I fell out of the top bunk every time, but I didn’t sleep through my exams.

      My other suggestion is to get someone to wake you up, even if you have to pay them to do it. I can get by with wake up calls now, but if you can arrange for someone to come by that’s better. If you think you would answer a wake up call, tell the person calling not to say “Hi” or “Are you awake?” when you first answer the phone. Tell them to say something like “YOUR BOSS IS WAITING, JUNIOR DEV. YOU CAN DO THIS!” or whatever is going to remind you why you are waking up.

      I don’t have a dawn simulator alarm, but I do have a lightbox. I’ve been meaning forever to put it on an outlet timer. I mention that just in case that’s something you can more easily put in place before next week.

      I put my breakfast next to my alarm, so I stand there with my eyes closed shoving food into my face. It helps me wake up a bit. If I have a flight to catch or something, I also put candy next to my alarm. I’m not saying you or anyone else should be eating candy before they’ve even opened their eyes. I’m just saying that I’ve never missed a morning flight.

      I also find it helps to change up my routine when I’ve gotten into a spell of sleeping through my alarm. I do this on the day I need to be up. I change my alarm sounds, sleep with my head at the other end of the bed (or sleep somewhere other than my bed), and so on. The trick here is to change enough that when the alarm goes off I can’t just go through the cycle of turning it off and going back to sleep without noticing or sleeping straight through it, but not changing things up so much that I can’t sleep at all.

      I also find preparing everything I can the night before and reminding myself that I need to wake up early helps. Long term it’s useless, but for one-offs like this the worry wakes me right up.

      Good luck, Junior Dev. I’ve (clearly) been there and I hope things go well for you. I expect they will.

    13. Oxford Coma*

      Drink 2-3 glasses of water right before you get into bed. I do that on “early meeting” days. It’s easier to force myself to get up when my bladder feels about to burst.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This one so works. And if I have to get up in the middle of the night, I have another glass of water before returning to bed. Yep, I am up in the morning.

      2. anonagain*

        I’ve also had success with this approach. I found it especially effective when combined with with an alarm that played waterfall noises…

    14. valentine*

      Earbuds or -clips + online alarm. Adjust your hours so you are getting up when you feel best. If I recall, you have several stressors and a particularly stressful person at work, so if you are sleep-deprived, maybe sleeping 9+ hours for a week or more will help. If you cannot change your hours, nap. Take a sleep-disorder quiz and, if it seems likely you have one, see about getting a sleep study done.

  42. Notthemomma*

    A-amazing news!!! I am moving to my dream department on May 1!!! So may thanks to Allison for cover letter and resume guide info, and to all of you for tips I’ve gleaned from reading comments and the archives.

    I will never have to fight BEC for access to my own dang database or listen to her blaster skewered ‘recommendations’ based on unicorn fairy dust. I get to work with adults!

    This is a great Friday post for me and sending good prayers, wishes, luck, & vibes to those of you who are still looking.

    1. Anonygrouse*

      Congratulations! Leaving a terrible job for a great one is one of the best feelings in the world — savor it!

  43. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    Good grief. SO MUCH has happened this week.

    I have an in person interview on Tuesday. Which I was initially excited about, but then I woke up to an email this morning telling me I need to bring proof of education with me. I graduated 10 years ago….I don’t know where my diploma is. And trying to get my hands on a copy of an unofficial transcript is proving to be a frustrating experience that’s nearly bringing me to tears. (I’m seriously tempted to just email them back and say this is not feasible to do with ONE business day…..)

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        I thought it was odd too. Especially since I have a solid work history…

        And now it turns out the university has my birthday wrong (which is concerning). And there’s no way for me to get to registration office in time before Tuesday.

        1. Enough*

          I took some graduate courses at my alma mater and they got my social security number wrong. So when I was in the area a few years later I went by and found out that they don’t even have me in the data base at all. this explained why my college department stopped asking me for donations. Thankfully I won’t ever need to verify my education and have both my diploma and an unofficial transcript.

          1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

            I’ve never had to in the ten years since I graduated. I know my diploma is SOMEWHERE, I just don’t know where. And as this is the first time I’ve ever had to verify my education I’m freaking out that I’m going to be stuck where I’m at forever. (which I know isn’t logical, but that’s where I’m at)

    2. Nervous Nellie*

      What about going to the interview and being upfront that you don’t have any proof on hand? In the meantime, put in a request for your transcript (I remember how much of a pain that can be) and let them know you have that pending and will supply the transcript as soon as you receive it. It sounds like an odd request and it’s entirely possible they’ve gotten that same response from previous applicants. Good luck!

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        I was thinking of just emailing them back and saying that I wasn’t going to be able to have it by Tuesday so if they either want to reschedule or cancel they can. (And, honestly, if they cancel then I’m taking that as a bullet dodged.)

        1. Tara S.*

          I wouldn’t necessarily rule them out because of this. It’s probably just a formality. They could have been more upfront about it, but if you follow Nellie’s advice, (if they’re reasonable) they should give you more time to get it in.

          1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

            Oh, I’m not ruling them out straight off the bat.

            But I did email the HR rep back because if this is a requirement they need beforehand (there’s a boatload of paperwork they’re requiring me to bring on Tuesday) I’d rather not waste anyone’s time. I’m hoping they reschedule! But if they do, indeed, cancel because of this I’m not going to cry over it.

        2. nep*

          This would be my approach.
          I like the idea of (just very matter-of-fact) informing them ahead of time that you are putting in a request for documentation but you won’t have by the time of the interview.
          Best of luck. Let us know how it goes.

    3. epi*

      You should try your school’s website now, and call if you can’t figure it out. Part of the point of unofficial electronic transcripts is you can get to them quickly. Many schools also do official electronic transcripts that you can get almost as soon as you pay. Increasingly, this is actually the default.

      Schools realize their alumni don’t have logins anymore and aren’t going to remember stuff like their student ID. It’s typical to verify alumni identities some other way, and if the website doesn’t support it, a human will be able to do it.

  44. Nisie*

    I was “let go from probation” (fired) last month, still don’t know why. It was literally my boss was trying to hurry up and get me completely on board and he was let go, two weeks later, I was let go. I saw the ad for my old position today.

    I’m hurt, but have had two interviews in the past month and one offer for a part time work from home job that I’m debating

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Do you know why your boss was let go? My guess is that he was doing something shady/illegal and they weren’t sure if you were aware/involved so they figured it was better to let you go too.

  45. Cordelia Chase*

    I’m trying to decide if giving feedback to my boss is worth the effort, and I appreciate any input!

    Background: I work on a team that trains and coaches managers to be good leaders. One of the concepts we emphasize is giving and receiving feedback – encouraging managers to give team members frequent and relevant feedback and ask for feedback. My boss does some of the former, but doesn’t ask for my feedback. I do provide it on projects we work on, but not on more sensitive topics that have, frankly, led me to look for other work anyhow (being too touchy-feely with me/others, undermining my authority, taking credit for ideas).

    On top of that, my boss is being considered for a promotion, and I feel like this feedback would be valuable. Should I bother though, if I’m one foot out the door?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Depends on your relationship with your boss, I feel like. If it’s friendly or quite collegian and she’s proven able to graciously receive pushback in the past, I might. But in most cases, it’s just going to leave them with a negative impression of you that would carry into your reference. Like the exit interview, it may not be worth the honesty.

    2. Lumen*

      Don’t drop it on them out of nowhere; ask to set aside some time to talk privately, something you can both put on your calendars and prepare for. If they asks what it’s about, be up-front and say you wanted to offer them some feedback, and reference the fact that this is something your team values and trains others on.

      In the actual meeting, use some of the skills you train people to use. Compliment sandwiches, specific examples of the behavior you’re bringing up, and suggestions on how to improve. The fact that you may leave means you can probably do this without as much internal pressure on yourself, and it could really help this boss do better.

  46. Still Looking*

    What are your thoughts on companies that put you through the full search process including calling references but then still can’t give you a firm yea or nay? Is this kind of indecisiveness usual? If an indecisive company asked you to wait 3 or 4+ weeks how would you respond?

    1. CTT*

      I assume if that happens it means they have 2 or more really great candidates and have to choose between them, which can often lead to more wrangling and discussion than Good Candidate A vs. OK Candidate B (for my last job, it took probably 3 weeks to find out because it was down to me and one other person, and there was a lot of cost-benefit analysis that had to be run and getting all the decision-makers in the same room, etc.). But 3-4 weeks is a long time to wait on just one job, so I think you’re totally within your rights to continue your job search in the meantime.

      1. Still Looking*

        There’s a case where the company had interviewed a group of candidates, and now wants to interview additional candidates. It’s no longer a question of who from our current pool is best. They’re betting on people they haven’t yet put through the process, and I just find that odd. When it’s down to me vs. other great people already interviewed and at the same stage of the process that totally makes sense, and I’m willing to be patient with the timeline, but this other type of scenario where it’s the top candidate(s) vs. potential candidates makes the company seem lukewarm at best. “You’ll do, but only if we have no other choice.” I’m not sure if I’m reading too much into it.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      Definitely continue your search. When I put someone in this position recently, it’s because I was on the fence about a finalist, and we got a late applicant (no deadlines posted on the job listing) who was perfect, so we were fast-tracking them through the process, and leaving the other finalist on hold while we did it. I felt bad, but didn’t want to cut the first person loose while we were still going through the process with the other one.

      1. Still Looking*

        How did you communicate that to your other finalist(s)? Had you already reference checked at that point?

        I’m also just curious if your new perfect candidate panned out.

        I’ve already been put on hold once, and that was before I had made the short list. Definitely still continuing to interview. The job market is super hot right now.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          The direct communication was via HR, so I think they just told the other person to hold tight. The perfect-seeming person dd pan out, and does seem great.

          I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, though.

          1. Still Looking*

            Thanks. I feel like if you’re going to go through a week’s effort of calling references and taking up their time, you really ought to be better than lukewarm about the candidate. You certainly don’t want to give them the impression you’re not that into them if you want them to wait it out. After getting that email, I won’t be giving them a 2nd glance if someone else offers while I’m in that waiting period.

            I was super excited about the job. Now I’m second guessing whether I want to work for people who just gave me the impression they either aren’t that into me or have real trouble making and commiting to a decision.

            I’m really a bit annoyed they took up the valuable time of several other people when they were on the fence about commiting in the first place. I have solid references. It’s baffling to me I wouldn’t get a firm yes or no after all of that.

            Onward!

  47. anon24*

    Alison, I think it would be really fun to do an open thread where people can post “fun facts” about their field that are common knowledge if you work in that field but that the general public doesn’t know. For example, a lot of people in the general public use my job title interchangeably with another title but they’re actually two very different things! It made me think of how many misconceptions about other fields I have.

    3. Tipcat*

      I used to work at a bank. A surprising number of employees did not know the difference between a signature and an endorsement. The *signature* is the maker’s signature on the front of the check. The *enDORSement* is the payee’s signature or stamp on the back. A lot of customers didn’t know either,but they weren’t being paid to.

  48. Lucky*

    Any tips on how to respond to a coworker who seems to always find a way to blame someone/thing else when something doesn’t go right? This co-worker is junior to me, but does not report to me. I’ve nearly given up trying to train her or increase her skills, because every issue I would point out to her was met by an excuse, like “that’s an old draft – I’ve fixed it in the current version” (she hasn’t, mistake still there.) Two issues with shared clients came up this week and I didn’t think either was caused by her mistake. But she’s quick to lay blame on another team and she’s so vague when she’s laying blame – a team dropped the ball, not a particular person; she’ll talk to the team about doing X next time, etc. – that now I’m wondering if these problems were her fault. It’s not even about finding someone to blame, you know? It’s that she’s so quick to deflect anything from herself.

    1. Nervous Nellie*

      I have a similar situation with an employee who, while not seeking to blame others, always has an excuse or argument. Many times it’s not even required! I’ve given her feedback like, “Going forward let’s do X when we do this project” and I get a whole explanation about why she did Y and Z instead earlier this week. I wasn’t seeking to criticize her or even tell her she’s doing something wrong, just that from now on it’ll be best if we do it a different way. I understand where she’s coming from but it’s completely unnecessary.

      I think some people are just automatically on the defense and, in your co-worker’s case, feel like an explanation that absolves her of any wrongdoing is needed. Maybe you could try politely cutting her off before she has a chance to get going and saying, “We don’t need to go over WHY the mistake was made. Let’s focus on getting this corrected from here on out. Who do you need to talk to in the llama testing department in order to get this corrected?”

  49. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

    I wrote in last week’s weekend thread about how I figured out I’m having a depression relapse.

    I hadn’t talked to my bosses yet then, but now I have. My boss, project manager and grand boss took it extremely well, and have been incredibly supportive.

    In a stroke of luck, we need to reduce staffing on my project for a few weeks, which means I can be gone and no one will ask any questions.

    Now I just have to deal with the boredom.
    I’ve been on sick leave before and even when you need it, it gets mindnumbingly boring.

    So I’d welcome advice on what to do to pass the time.

    2. laylaaaaaaaah*

      This may be something you were planning on anyway, but I’d recommend still sticking to a strict-ish routine (albeit one with room to just flop and feel awful sometimes, because you’re probably going to need it). Get up at a set time every day- leave the bed, even if it’s just to drag a blanket over to the couch.

      I tend to have a schedule set up around when I’m going to eat breakfast, lunch, snacks etc, and then have a list of 5-10 activities of varying mental/physical intensity that I can do in between those periods. So if my brain is a complete fog, then I find a new movie to watch or play a familiar video game, but if I have more energy, I might read some comics, play a new game or go for a walk (low-intensity is usually the way to go), always strictly respecting those breaks, because whatever I do, if I spend the whole day on the sofa, I’m going to end up feeling awful.

      Some ideas:
      -new films/TV shows
      -video games (I tend to get easily stressed out by new ones if I have zero brainpower, but more than a few hours of an old one and my brain fogs up even more)
      -baking something simple (structured activity with food afterwards!)
      -reading something that isn’t too taxing
      -walking/jogging/running
      -journaling/scrapbooking
      -podcasts (especially story-based ones)

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Great list! When I was unemployed and depressed, my one rule was the leave the house every day. Maybe just for a quick errand, or maybe for a long walk, but either way, I had to get myself presentable and out the door at least briefly every day.

      2. Parenthetically*

        Yes, for me getting outside whenever I can is a pretty important component of self-care for my depression.

        This is all very excellent advice.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      Do you have any hobbies or interests that you consider self-care?

      Exercise is good, but can be tough to do when you’re depressed.

  50. Peachy*

    Q about professor salary.

    I work for a very large University system in a non academic capacity and our salary’s are public. I see professors with gross salaries of $1-2 million…with a Regular pay of, let’s say, 200k and Other pay of 1.2 million. Does that mean that they got a grant of $XX million and they are paying themselves $1.2 million of that for the year? Is the XX million where they pay their grad students from? Do they really only pay each student $10-30k? What kind of work are the professors doing for gross salaries in the $400k – $2 million range?

    1. Murphy*

      Federal grants typically have salary caps, so those millions (!!) shouldn’t be coming from grant money. I don’t know what would be going on to make it that high.

      If a grad student was written into a grant, then they would be paid and have their tuition paid out of grant funds. Do they really only pay them that little. Oh yes. I got paid on the lower end of that when I was in school. It was fun, let me tell you.

      1. Murphy*

        (I realize that not all grants are Federal grants, but that’s what I’m personally most familiar with.)

    2. fposte*

      I’m betting patents and licensing; it could also be stipends for running centers or institutes, which often are separate from salaries.

    3. Lora*

      It depends on the field. In my field, income outside of their regular teaching load comes from:
      -soft money grants, which are mostly used for research not paying the professor’s salary
      -tech transfer of intellectual property. Some patents end up being worth $$$$. The university gets a smaller cut of this too.
      -consulting. For that level of consulting it isn’t unusual to get paid more than a very fancy lawyer by the hour.
      -startup business on the side. MIT, Yale and Harvard etc have a lot of professors running side businesses.
      -sale of aforementioned startups, to either private co-founders or VC firms

      Yes, typically a STEM grad student gets paid ~$20-25k, depending on region. In my day it was $14-17k. Postdocs make more like $50k. They usually have mediocre benefits at best and no retirement savings plans. The lion’s share of grant money actually goes to the university as Overhead, though: building and facility maintenance, central services support (expensive equipment, water purification systems or an animal facility is typically shared by many labs). And the next-biggest chunk is eaten by equipment and supplies for the lab.

      1. fposte*

        While university approaches may vary, on ours I don’t think side businesses would be included in the public university pay disclosures for ours; the disclosure is only what they get paid through the university.

        1. Tara S.*

          ^+1. Patents and tech transfers would show up as salary for professors where I work, but consulting and VC startup stuff would not.

    5. Peachy*

      Very interesting! Thanks all.

      I looked into the professors a bit more, all the highest paid ones (450k+++) are health professors (read: MDs). I looked at some of the professors at our universities without a med school and the highest paid ones there (gross pay) where no more than $480k.

    6. Nesprin*

      1-2M? that’s very very unusual. Most profs in STEM at least are 80-200K range, with clinicians ranging in the 200-500K range. Profs get paid 9mo of their for teaching courses, or alternatively are paid out of their grants. A high powered research prof has a 1M-4M/yr lab budget coming from grants. Basically each prof leads a small research company like group. Most profs do not do their own work, instead they’re equivalent to mid-to-high level managers, focused on setting goals & managing people.
      Grad students (STEM again) are usually paid according to NIH scales so ~20K, and profs get to pay their tuition as well, so ~45k/yr per grad student. Postdocs are ~45K with no tuition.
      FYI the sacramento bee has a database for UC and CSU profs if you’re in California. If you’re ever curious about what they get paid for, NIH RePorter database has summaries of awarded grants.

      1. TL -*

        Depends on field/location – I worked in Boston and 1-2M/yr wouldn’t really be high-powered; it would be mid-powered or up and coming. Graduate take-home pay was $35k and up (mostly up, but it depended) with health insurance covered. Postdoc was generally 50K and up, sometimes with good benefits and sometimes not.

        And I imagine the clinician thing can also vary a lot – one of the profs I know is also head of his department at a world-renowned hospital, so while I don’t know his salary, I would guess it’s well above 500k.

  51. spouses at same employer and benefits...*

    The update about the spouses forced to share a parking pass had me thinking. Are there other situations where spouses who work together share benefits? Is it ever okay? I was reading my employee manual and noticed we have a rule about spouses and maternity leave. Employees each get 12 weeks unpaid maternity leave. But if both spouses work here, they only get 12 weeks total to share (our policy is copy paste what FMLA allows, so it’s all on the up-and-up if not very generous). I’m curious how other employers deal with spouses who work together and these types of things.

    1. Enough*

      Thankfully when my husband and I worked at the same company everyone was treated as an individual. So even though we were married we got individual insurance (which way back then companies paid 100% of). So when I left we had to budget for going to a family plan (they paid what an individual cost, you paid the rest).

    2. Recently Diagnosed*

      This is probably the same in most places, but where my spouse and I work, it is WAY cheaper for us to have separate insurance plans than it is for us to share one, despite working at the same company. Granted I know only as much about insurance as I need to in order to not go without, but that seemed odd when I first figured it out.

      1. Natalie*

        It’s not really that odd – as you probably know, your payroll deduction doesn’t cover the entire cost of the premium. It doesn’t even represent some specific percentage of the premium your company pays because that varies by age.

        It’s fairly common for employers to pay a greater share of their employee’s premium than they pay for any dependents. So when you are each on the insurance separately, you’re paying the low employee share. But d you’re on it together, one of you is being treated like a non-employee dependent and thus pays more.

        1. Recently Diagnosed*

          Oh yeah. It’s one of those things that makes sense once I stop and think about it, but as this was my first time signing up to receive insurance outside of my parents’ plan, it struck me as strange! When I emailed our insurance person at the company, she was a bit mystified. It turns out that no one had emailed to ask her about that before! Probably because most people had learned more about insurance than I had at the time.

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        No, for us, the insurance spouse cost was not quite as much as the employee, but we weren’t allowed to go with employee/spouse. We had to both pay the employee cost. However, this was decades ago.

    3. a*

      We have several restrictions – the FMLA thing is federal rule, so that’s applicable everywhere. Our agency gives 4 weeks on maternity/paternity leave, but if both parents work for the agency, only one of them gets to take it. In addition, all employees must carry insurance. So, instead of being able to carry your spouse as a dependent, both people must carry insurance (It’s more expensive that way). We also have restrictions about reviewing your spouse’s work, because we don’t have restrictions about spouses working together. I’m not entirely sure what the policy is about reporting to your spouse, as we have a married couple who are the ones effectively responsible for writing the policies and procedures for my section. She’s not a direct report to him as far as job titles go, but it plays out as double-teaming.

    4. DDJ*

      My employer is the same about parental leave – they’re only required to grant it to one parent. Now, that’s just what’s in the official policy guide. I’m sure that if it actually happened, operations permitting, they wouldn’t stick firm to that. But they could.

    5. EmilyAnn*

      This is very controversial in the military. You get BAH, which is a housing allowance. If you’re a military member married to another military member you each get a BAH at the single rate. If you have kids, one get to claim the rate that includes dependents and the other still just gets the single rate. Those not married to members think the amounts can get overly generous, especially as it can be difficult for their spouses to work. When you’re get 3K to rent a house in the D.C. area and your co-worker gets 5K for a family the exact same size as yours, it gets sticky. In budget proposals, sometimes people think the amount be reduced. I think it’s pretty fair.

      1. Triple Anon*

        It sounds fair to me. The housing allowance is part of the compensation and benefits package. If your spouse is not in the military, they could have another kind of job with equally good compensation, just probably not in the form of a housing allowance.

  52. Luna123*

    Okay, I had an interview at a law office yesterday, and it was kind of weird. The interviewer didn’t really ask me many questions, and it was like she mostly wanted to make sure that I understood that a) the hours are weird, b) it’s always going to be a part-time job, and c) the person I’ll be working with really just wants to focus on work for eight hours and is not super chatty.

    What makes me antsy is that the interviewer never asked me why I left my last job, so she doesn’t know I was fired. I don’t want to hide that fact, so I’m not sure when/how I should disclose it. The closest we got to the subject was when she was talking about how the job is part-time and going to stay that way, and I said something like “I’m definitely okay with that. I’m fixing up rentals with my parents right now, and when I was working full time they were done working on the house for the day by the time I got off work.” That’s all true, but main reason I’m helping my parents is because I don’t have a day job…

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Nonymous*

      If they don’t ask, I really don’t think this is information you have to volunteer. As long as you’re not lying to anyone.

    2. Salster*

      I’m of the mind that since the interviewer didn’t ask, don’t disclose that information. If she wanted to know, she would have asked. If it comes up again later, be honest, but otherwise, don’t sweat it.

    3. Murphy*

      If they don’t ask, I wouldn’t bring it up. You’re not hiding it. It just didn’t come up. If they find out or they do ask you later, just own up to it.

      (I had this experience. After I’d been given an informal verbal offer, the hiring manager called my old job and found out that I had been fired. She called me to ask about it. I told her, and they still moved forward with formally offering me the job.)

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      Don’t sweat it. The interviewer is way more focused on whether you’re a good fit for the current job. Especially so in this case because it seems that it is a difficult-to-fill job.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      Up to the local industry average for your role if you’re meeting expectations. More if you’re really good at your job.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          Depends on other benefits and flexibility, but yes. You should be gauging things on total compensation and not just salary, though.

  54. laylaaaaaaaah*

    How long does it usually take before you feel like you know what you’re doing in a new role? I started a new job a little under a month ago, and while my manager did say when I started that it would be made up of lots of little things which I’d have to learn as they came up, I still feel like I’m floundering a bit and asking too many questions.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      WAY more than a month. Usually 6 months to a year for me, depending on the role.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Definitely a minimum of 6 months. Even after three years here, sometimes something still gets me.

    5. Nervous Nellie*

      Definitely longer than a month! Depending on the role, months or even up to a year. Please don’t let that stop you from asking as many questions as you need. I’ve been training an employee and I actually got a little concerned when she made comments about how she feels like she shouldn’t have to keep asking me questions, or apologizing for asking me things. I worried that I didn’t seem approachable or that she was winging things because she was reluctant to ask me questions. Unless your manager gives you feedback that it’s a problem, keep asking those questions!

    6. Purplerains*

      I work at at university on the administrative side and we say you’ll have a good sense of things in about three months (key people, logistics, etc.), but you won’t really know your job for two years (once you’ve been through a cycle of whatever it is at least once). I’ve found that to be true.

    7. Lindsay J*

      3 months to begin to feel confident.

      6 months to feel like I’ve actually got it all under control.

  55. Nonymous*

    My work hired someone who lost their last job because they sexually harassed a subordinate. This is making me mad.

    1. Nervous Nellie*

      Can’t say I blame you! How on earth did you find out about that, though? Surely this person didn’t let it slip to his/her new co-workers, right?! This is definitely a situation where maintaining a professional distance is appropriate. Don’t interact more than you have to in order to get your job done.

    2. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      Did a former coworker/victim called you to warn you about this new employee?

  56. Worried Sister*

    How do you motivate someone who doesn’t want to work?

    My (much) younger brother is wrapping up is junior year of college, and has never held a job. He’s never even had an internship. I joke that his resume is just a blank sheet of paper, but it basically is! I’ve tried talking to him and encouraging him to look for something — a part-time job, internship, or even volunteer work — but it seems like my words just go in one ear and out the other.

    The problem is compounded by the fact that neither of our parents went to school and still seem to think that having a four-year degree all it takes to get a decent job, when that’s simply not the case anymore. He’s a smart guy, but doesn’t seem to understand/want to understand how difficult it can be to get a job when you have little or no experience.

    1. stefanielaine*

      It’s kind and big sisterly of you to be worried about this, but ultimately, you can’t make him do anything he doesn’t want to do. He’s an adult (a young one, but still an adult) and he’s demonstrated that he’s not receptive to your advice right now, so I recommend making it clear that you’re available if he has questions or wants help planning his future and then drop it. He’ll either figure it out or he won’t, and if he fails and then wants help, you’ll be there. Until then, there’s no point in tying yourself in knots about it.

    2. fposte*

      This has a similar answer to Shawshank’s question above: you really can’t make other people change. You’ve said your piece; let it go. He’ll be okay or he won’t, but a grudge part-time job to get his sister off his back isn’t going to make the difference between a great job or a mediocre one in a year anyway.

    3. WellRed*

      How frustrating to watch this. He’s going to graduate with a degree. At the same time, lots of other people are going to graduate with a degree. And work experience.

    4. Natalie*

      You can’t.

      My brother dropped out of highschool (got a GED eventually) and dropped out of college three times. He’s 31 now and his current stint in college seems to be sticking. Part of the reason we remain close is that I learned a long time ago to stop giving advice (unless he asked) and let go of the idea that he had to do things the way that made sense to me.

      This is not your problem to solve.

    5. Worried Sister*

      Thanks everyone. It’s super frustrating, but you’re right — I need to let it go!

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      Unfortunately, you can’t make anyone do anything. And if most of your conversations are you telling him what he SHOULD be doing, he may just be shutting down on you – even, and possibly especially, if he’s already stressed about this. Have you gently/conversationally asked him open ended questions about what is post-graduation plans are and how he plans on making them happen? (Don’t grill the guy, just talk with him without a FIX IT agenda.)

      As in, What field are you looking to go into? What are your classmates doing right now to prep for applying for jobs? (Is he in a magical degree program where employers just come scoop up grads with or without work history?) What employers are you looking at? Who do you plan to use as references? What’s your plan for job history? What do you think you’ll put down as relevant skills? Have you looked at resumes of anyone currently in the field you want to break into?

      Or, Are you interested in a graduate degree? What schools have you looked at? What are their acceptance requirements? What are you thinking of including in you application packet? What do you want to do with that degree?

      Or even, Do you like the degree program you’re in now? (and really, does he? Is he not moving forward because he can’t imagine pursuing a career in what he’s studying right now? What are his grades like?)

      Maybe letting him lead the conversation will give you a better understanding of where his head’s at and an opening to gently guide him, more-so than you just coming in and telling him to do things or using scare tactics/hand-wringing (not that that is what you’re doing now). It’s not that you are not correct, because you DEFINITELY are, but – speaking as another owner of a younger brother – younger siblings can be prickly creatures. After you ask him all these leading questions, just let him talk about it (or let him shrug and say “I don’t know” like every other younger brother ever created) without telling him all the things he SHOULD be doing. You’ll at least have given him food for thought. Even if he doesn’t have any plans, the most you can really do is maybe send him some helpful AAM links about getting jobs post-graduation and building a resume, then offer to be a resource for resume help or answer questions and hope he gets himself together soon. It’s not code red quite yet, so maybe some gentle nudging and support will play better with him than whatever vibe you two have going right now.

      And also, is he like this about other things? Is inertia kind of something he just struggles with in general, or is this the ONLY place in his life where he looks unmotivated. Either way, that may give insight into where his head’s at. If he’s just like this, well – that’s pretty worrying, and gently talking to your parents about whether or not they’re also concerned about him in general might be worth a go. But if he’s only like this in one area….why? Is he freezing in terror or anxiety? Because quarter life crisis is often said as a joke, but it’s really a thing. I had huge issues with anxiety and depression around that time in my life. The transition between full time school and full time work is pretty intense and terrifying, and he may just be ostrich-ing a bit here.

      Ultimately though, you can’t force him. And you’re not his parent, so you can’t even control what your parents allow or encourage him to do with their own resources. You can only make yourself available and be as supportive as possible to encourage him in the right direction. Just be clear that it is the right direction for HIM, and not just what you think is right.

      Good luck!

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        But also – depending on the tone and frequency your past discussions around this topic with him, he may just be totally closed down to talking about this with you anymore. Anything you do at this point may just be more poking the bear no matter what tac you take.

        Give it a while, then try just generally asking how he is, how he’s liking his classes, what he’s up to to re-establish yourself as a safe person to talk about this stuff with.

        1. Worried Sister*

          This is really great advice! I appreciate you taking the time to type out such a well-thought-out response. I think I’m going to take some time off of being Second Mom and try being Cool Big Sister again.

  57. Enid*

    Looking for advice on how to handle some low-key sexism in the office. My issue is that the guy in charge tends to view men as more ambitious and promotable than women. He seems to like young guys with… gumption, I guess? It comes out in little ways, some worse than others: Men on the team get asked about their vacations and families, get asked out for lunch, women… do not. Men get put forward for training opportunities, women have to fight for them. Men get face time with him, and other teams, whereas women tend to have to fight for it.

    Thus far I’ve been very open about the opportunities I’d like, but I feel like I’m constantly reminding him. Our workplace prides itself on diversity, but it’s hard to point to a specific complaint, it’s just a lot of small things building up. Besides doing my best to advocate for myself when training or events I’d like to attend come up, is there anything else people here would recommend doing?

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      Can you get some actual numbers on the break down of head count of men and women in your department/company and compare it to the gender break down of who is receiving additional training/promotions/high visibility projects? Are you able to actually document the process that you or another woman had to go through to get additional training opportunities vs. a man in a like role, even if just for yourself? Like – I had to ask Boss 8 times, 5 in email, to get training, but he just offered it to Herbert, even though I’ve been here longer and have received outstanding performance reviews the last 3 years in a row?

      Answering these questions for yourself can start giving you some hard data to put against what you seem to feel is kind of nebulous at this point. Also, can you ask Boss – “I’m interested in the same training Herbert received last year. What’s the criteria I would need to meet to receive that?” Then see what Boss says. If you meet it already, and have always met it, that’s interesting information to have, for sure.

      Basically, I’d just start taking notes. Start jotting down his lunches with the guys vs. the number of times he includes women. Jot down who’s getting which projects. So you don’t have to rely on your memory, you’ll see the patterns right in front of you. It will give you confidence in your feeling of what’s going on, and give you data points if you need to escalate.

  58. many bells down*

    I posted last week that I think I’ve been misclassified as an independent contractor. So, next week, I’m talking to a tax guy because the quarterly filing thing confused me, and I know the IRS has a form for it that I’m hoping he can walk me through. I did email the state labor board, but they just gave me some numbers to call and I’d rather talk to someone face-to-face.

  59. Brownie*

    Anyone have advice on dealing with a boss who views me giving information in meetings or asking questions as undermining his authority? This same person has a history of being incredibly sensitive to anything he sees as insulting his knowledge or technical ability, which even extends to asking questions about how programs he’s developed work and interact (he refuses to write documentation or comment his code). He’s evidenced trust issues too in that he won’t trust me when I talk about something technical unless I can prove it via official documentation from a vendor (he does not do this with the other members of the team). It’s reached the point where my curiosity and drive to know how things work, which both my former bosses (this one is the 3rd in under 3 years) praised, gets me yelled at, chastised, and told that I should either know the information because of my experience (at 10 years of experience that’s still only half or less of the experience of anyone else on my 6 person team) or that I should be reading the actual code he’s written because it’s “self-documenting” (his words, no one else on my team can read his programs from code either) and therefore he shouldn’t have to explain it.

    Added complication to all of this? He’s my temporary boss until either he decides to take the job or someone else gets hired. If someone else gets hired he’ll drop back down to become my coworker again. So not only do I need to figure out what to do about him as a boss now, but how to keep anything I do now from aggravating him as a coworker later on. I’m at the stage where every interaction with him leaves me crying in my cube and wanting to punch walls out of frustration afterwards. Should I just suck it up, stay silent, and endure until the next boss comes along, or is there a better way of handling this?

    1. esra*

      Is there a timeline on him being temporary? Like if you suck it up, will it just be for a couple weeks/months, or is it less defined?

      1. Brownie*

        Less defined. The position hasn’t even been posted yet and, because it’s a government job, it could be anywhere from 2 months to 8 months after the position is posted. No timeline for the job posting other than soon, but the previous boss left at the beginning of January.

        1. esra*

          Ah, that makes it tougher. If you knew the guy was going to be gone in a month, I’d say do your best to try and disconnect from his crummy behaviour until he’s either gone or permanent. But considering it could be nearly a year with this guy, I’d be sending out resumes. There’s no harm in it, it’s basically win/win for you right now.

          In the past when I’ve had really defensive bosses like this, I’ve gone completely neutral with them. Still asking the questions that you need to ask to do your job, but neutral face, neutral smile, neutral responses. Essentially doing everything I could to separate myself from their issues. It didn’t fix them, because you can’t really, but it helped me to stay professional and sane.

          1. Brownie*

            I love this job and can easily see staying here until I retire. In fact, there’s already plans at the grandboss and grand-grandboss level where they’ve told me they see me as the future of this team and are very much looking forward to it as my views align perfectly with theirs (and the organization’s). Which all makes this situation even harder because it’s one person making me miserable while everyone else, from coworkers to management 2 levels above bad boss, loves me and is trying to set me up to succeed.

            Neutral. It’ll be hard, but I’ll try it. Just have to keep repeating “It’s only temporary” as my mantra.

            1. Been There, Left That*

              I felt the same way about a previous job (I wanted to stay there for the rest of my career and my new manager was the only person making me miserable and leaving me in tears every day). The company told me the same thing yours has told you. But I now think that was just to keep me around.

              I stayed as long as I could then finally quit. Your manager affects your life so much every day. If it’s this bad, I suggest looking for another job. You can always try to come back in a few years — working for a different manager or as a manager yourself.

    2. J.B.*

      This seems like insecurity, or zero interest in communicating/managing on his part.

      1. Do you have good relations with someone else higher up? Maybe you could ask for advice?
      2. Don’t ask him questions. Instead do the documentation yourself as best you can and see if coworkers can look at it with you. Bullet points mainly. I have found this to be a good way of learning about those amorphous stuff that gets handed on.
      3. Look around for other jobs. I’ve seen plenty of IT jobs in state government in my location. Good economy overall is making those harder to fill.

  60. Anon Marketer*

    How do I handle declining contributing to office baby gifts months apart from each other with grace? We have AT LEAST six-eight babies per year, usually all in the spring, and the donations add up on my budget. I’m also not super kid inclined, but I try to contribute where I can. But I also don’t want to be “that person”…

    2. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      Offer to get the card and explain you won’t be able to chip in on a gift. Ideally people will be happy at you taking on the effort of getting a suitable card and acquiring signatures.

      (Of course this just trades money for time/effort but it might be worth it.)

    3. Millennial Lawyer*

      It really depends on your office culture – you could just not donate (politely decline), or donate something small like a $10 gift card as Emily S. recommended. I just wouldn’t donate to one and not the other.

    4. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      onesie and card. go looking at the 2nd hand stores for new onesies with tags and stock up when you find them. Cheap, socially acceptable, pretty cheap.

  61. Mary (in PA)*

    Yay! Open thread time!

    I have a (somewhat new) job where I am an admin. It’s at a level way below where I look like I should be on paper, but being out of work for three years due to chronic brain disease (epilepsy) has made me yearn for a part-time job that I can do, and do well. This job suits me perfectly and I want to excel at it. However, I’ve been struggling lately with some pretty basic stuff, like scheduling meetings, making sure to follow up on things, and stuff like that. Part of it is that I’m not as smart as I used to be; part of it is that I’ve been out of the workforce for a while; part of it is that there is no documentation for processes or procedures. But part of it is my own lack of knowledge in this area.

    Does anyone have any good resources for admins who want to improve their softer skills? I don’t need help with software, but with stuff like time management and general productivity and organization that’s focused on admins and what they do. Are there any good books or other resources out there that have helped you out in this area?

    1. Tara S.*

      Maybe do some research into a task-management system that would work for you. I know personally I have to write down everything or it doesn’t happen, esp. if it needs follow-up. This could just be a piece of paper where you write everything down, or you could use something fancier. I like Trello, because it lets me attach documents to each task, and add comments to each task so I can track my progress. You get so many little things that crop up as an admin, it’s nice to be able to go back to a list of some kind to know what you need to do. Best of luck!

    2. Nanc*

      Head off to your local library and talk to the reference librarian. In addition to books, they probably have DVDs, online resources and access to trainings and databases. I know at my library you can book appointments with a reference librarian and also with a tech person, who will help you figure out basic stuff on your own laptop or tablet.

      If you’re using Office 365 (or really, any version of office) check out the tutorials and discussion forums. Watching a basic Outlook Tutorial may give you some tips about using the program that work for you.

      Personally, I’m stuck in the 20th century where I jot my notes/thoughts on paper as they occur. A couple of times each day I stop and decide where each thing/idea goes–an Outlook task, into our project management system, an email to someone with the info and even (gasp) into a physical file folder, still in the paper form where it sits until it needs to be dealt with electronically. You kids get off my lawn!

    3. Nervous Nellie*

      I’m sure there’s software out there to help with this, but I mostly keep track of things the old-fashioned way: pen and paper. I have a desk pad calendar and a day planner that I use to track everything. I’ve even got Post-its in there for ongoing projects with no fixed deadline that I can move from one week to the next if it’s still in the works. I also keep a couple of notebooks and notepads on/in my desk, each one used for different notes (things I’ve been asked to do, things I’ve asked employees to work on that I’ll need to follow up on, administrative changes I’d like to make when I have the time, etc.). You could accomplish the same thing with a nice Excel spreadsheet, I’m sure. Since I’m new to this role and the training wasn’t great, I’ve started an Excel spreadsheet with a worksheet for each month of the year and I started tracking yearly reoccurring projects as they come up, so that next April I’ll know that I need to do X, Y, and Z. Basically you should do whatever works best for your style. I don’t think there’s any one “right” way to do this.

    4. SarahTheEntwife*

      If you like audio material, I highly recommend the podcast Productivity Alchemy. It goes over lots of different productivity/recordkeeping strategies and interviews people in very varied professions as to how they keep themselves organized.

    5. Mad Baggins*

      I started making lists in OneNote. It came with the Microsoft programs and you can attach files, links, emails, etc. You can add checkboxes, symbols like arrows and highlight to signal follow up or high/low priority, and even minimize the details underneath. So I can write
      ! do the important thing by Friday (hyperlink to a URL online or on my computer), and click this line to expand
      and the details will appear underneath, I can even include a picture or copy an email from Outlook, a table from Excel, whatever I want.

      The best feature about OneNote is you can easily do screenshots. It’s perfect for when someone is showing you how to do something or navigate an internal system and you want to make a manual as you go along. The one downside is if you circle where to click with the pen or add other “ink” features, they don’t stay locked to the image and will move down the page if you add in text above the image later.

      There is similar notetaking software that honestly might be better overall, but this might already be on your computer so that might be a good way to start!

  62. Cloud Nine Sandra*

    I just can’t with someone who is all about drama in this office. I’ve literally taken to wearing headphones all day long because I can’t stand to hear Cersei (not her name! I don’t even watch Game of Thrones) continue complaining about all the ways management is trying to screw her over. She’s in a fever pitch lately and I was so sure she would quit or be fired yesterday, but nope. Here she is this morning, stirring up even more drama and outrage over things happening with other people at her level. She took another coworker into an empty office and closed the door to talk but she is so loud, I could still hear all of her side of the conversation.

    I’ve been here 16 months overall and she has always been outraged at management and always complaining about them. I literally have no idea if she has legitimate concerns, because it’s always been this “management is the WORST they know NOTHING” level. I don’t know what the last straw will be, but I hope it comes soon. Whatever gets her out of here and onto a job where she isn’t this unhappy – well, that seems impossible. A job where she’s outraged at the world and I don’t have to hear it.

  63. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

    Sitting at my desk trying to write 15 performance reviews by next week.

    Difficulty: I’m a supervisor, and the VPs review all our reviews. They both “joke” about how all the supervisors are too lenient (even when I hand out “fair” or “poor” scores), and I’m trying to head that off. It’ll probably still happen.

    Kind of venting (like, I’m pretty sure I have at least some degree of Stockholm syndrome at this point), but…it is genuinely tricky because (for example) I might be frustrated that someone calls out a lot, but it might be for health reasons and I don’t want to penalize for their being sick. This is just kind of frustrating on multiple levels for me, and I’ll be glad when this is done.

  64. Odyssea*

    All I can say about a resume I looked at yesterday – entirely in Comic Sans.

    I had to go take a break after that.

    3. Mockingjay*

      I’ve never figured out if using Comic Sans is deliberate (I STAND OUT!!!!) or if it just is the default font in the word processing program and the person can’t figure out how to change it…

    4. Just anonymous*

      To be fair, comic sans is actually one of the more readable fonts for those with dyslexia.

  65. Panda*

    I have an interview for an internal position on Monday. It would be a promotion, working in another department, reporting directly to my current grandboss. We have a great relationship and I was told he is only interviewing one person for the job. Me. He’s already speaking like I have it. He had to post the job, then go through all the hoops even though he knows he wants me in the position.

    Monday’s interview is with him and then with an HR person. While it seems a shoe-in, I spent hours on my resume and cover letter and want to take this interview seriously. My current manager (who fully supports me moving to this position) said I didn’t have to wear a suit, which is good because I do not own one. Our work is business casual.

    Should I wear my normal clothes? Maybe a little better clothes with a jacket? A dress?

    I am also having a hard time coming up with questions about the job. I know much of what I’ll be doing and I know his management style. The main things I want to ask are about flexibility in working from home (my current manager is not flexible about that at all). Should I make up questions? Should I even ask about working from home?

    2. Tara S.*

      Congrats, I hope everything goes smoothly! I would wear something nicer if you have it, but not a full suit if they already told you not to. Slacks and a nice shirt, or a dress. You could also ask some of the questions from Allison’s guide around “what have people who really stood out in this job done?” or “What would excelling in this position look like to you?”

    3. Ann Perkins*

      A blazer or cardigan tends to make an outfit look the most put together – I would go slacks or pencil skirt with nice top and cardigan or blazer, or dress with cardigan or blazer.

  66. Wakeen's Hanukkah Balls, Ltd.*

    A success story of sorts:

    This week, I applied to a job for which I met the required criteria. Unfortunately, the applicant tracking system automatically eliminated my application (I think because I answered ‘no’ to the question about whether my degree was in a relevant field). The thing is, however, that they only prefer – not require – that your degree be in a relevant field.

    I called the HR department and let them know of the situation. They said that they reviewed my application and found that I do, in fact, meet the minimum criteria. So they went ahead and sent my application to the hiring manager. That would have automatically happened if my application hadn’t been rejected by the system.

    So I went from being very disappointed to relieved. I have actually had two phone interviews with this department in the past for similar jobs, so I am hopeful that at least I am being treated fairly.

    Moral of the story: if you have a case to make, make it! As long as you are tactful and diplomatic, what do you have to lose? (Also keep in mind that your mileage may vary, and some companies won’t be kind enough to do that. )

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Works in other situations too!

      I posted elsewhere that I just got my first proposal accepted to speak at a conference. (Yay!) Well, originally it was a rejection. I got the notification at the end of the week, so I gave myself the weekend to wallow in disappointment.

      On Monday, I replied to the feedback, thanking them for their promptness, and asking what I could do to make my proposal stronger for future submissions. That evening I got a reply – the only thing wrong was it was a topic the organizers were very familiar with. But on further discussion, they realized the target audience wasn’t as familiar, so they decided to move my submission to accepted!

      A better result than I expected overall – I was figuring on one of the following 3 responses:
      – You need more X
      – You need less Y
      – We received several proposals on the same topic, and picked a different one (I think another conference I submitted the same proposal to did this, judging by the schedule. I would have picked the same one they did, and I’m looking forward to hearing it when I go to that conference.)

  67. GigglyPuff*

    Slight rant: I’ve been job searching for over a year, being picky with jobs I’m applying to because there aren’t many that meet my experience. I’m in a weird place where I know more than the entry level but most jobs are usually department heads, so I have to wait to find one that’s in-between. But my current job totally underutilizes people, very management only, no growth, etc, so I can’t quite bridge the gap to the next level.

    I was in the finally running for a job where for the first time in all the ones I’ve interviewed for, felt like I could bring something to the table instead of playing catch up with a learning curve. Found out yesterday I didn’t get it. It’s so frustrating because if I got just a little more responsibility at my current job I think I could bridge the small gap in my lack of experience, but most of the things are management responsibility only here. Also because of all this and personal issues my work ethic kinda went in the toilet last year, and my manager finally brought it up, so I’ve been building it back up. Ugh. Finally found a job where I wasn’t completely terrified of new and more responsibility and nada.

    1. k*

      I’m so in the same boat with you. And due to some changes in focus in our company, I have even less responsibilities than I used to, feels like I’m wasting away when I should be building skills. I’ve turned to applying to jobs that are technically the same title and level I have now, but companies where there would be more opportunity for growth. It’s not perfect, but I’d rather spend a year or two in another low level position but have a light at the end of the tunnel, than staying here and waiting for the perfect job come along (done that for long enough!).

  68. Overeducated*

    Hopefully my period of little to no work to do in my new job will end soon! I’m worried because my other new colleagues have only been here a few weeks longer than me, but they were very busy 2 weeks in, while I’m still reading and doing skills test assignments. Hoping my boss doesn’t think I’m an idiot or something. Sounds like we will have a talk this afternoon about “where I fit in.” Wish me luck at speaking up and not undermining my own skills out of reflexive modesty….

    Office politics are another thing. Wasn’t expecting them. May need fortitude….

      1. fposte*

        She’s referring to the commenter Ramona Flowers and reaching out to ask her a question.

        Paging, Ramona turned up on the weekend thread a couple of weeks ago; she’s taking a bit of an AAM break.

        1. Myrin*

          Oh my, that reminds me that I wanted to ask about her in the open thread tomorrow because I was missing her comments and wondering if she’s alright. I’ma go search for that thread now, thanks for mentioning it!

      2. ThatGirl*

        She is looking for a regular commenter and put her name in the comment header to catch her attention.

    2. anon24*

      Ramona Flowers is taking a break from commenting after some nasty things were said about her on another site. I’m not sure if she’s still here reading or just taking a break completely. Ramona, if you see this, I just want you to know that I think about you a lot!

  70. pitytheviolins*

    Hi all! long time reader, first time commenter.
    I just joined my company’s employee engagement team and signed up to help with “wellness activities”. They SAY it’s mostly about helping everyone be more aware about the benefits we have bc a lot of people don’t use them, but we do also do a health fair every year (that tends to have MLMs there, one thing I want to push back on). I was wondering if anyone had good links about what is/is not effective and why that I can use to help steer things in a not-harmful direction. Thanks!

    1. Snark*

      This is a minefield for the person in your position. In general, I would encourage you to err on the side of the following practices:

      1) Do not plan anything that people will not feel totally free to opt out of.
      2) Do not permit MLM representatives to attend your health fair.
      3) Make plans that are inclusive of all types of people, including those who are not inclined to participate in physical, fitness-oriented pursuits.
      4) Do not even mention weight, BMI, quitting smoking, or other third-rail health issues nobody wants their employer weighing in on.

      1. pitytheviolins*

        in the 5 years I’ve been here everything has been optional! Incentivized at most. Probably 1/5 of the building is travelling at any given moment so there’s not really anything we can make mandatory anyway, including company-wide meetings!

        I am super committed to pushing back on the MLM stuff. I’m just hoping it’s not personal connections of anyone on the team that I may end up starting a feud or something with!

        Yeah as far as other health issues, mostly it seems to be we just want people to know the resources we already pay for. Like you can get free counseling and stuff to try quitting smoking, but I haven’t noticed it being shamey. Mostly I just got real mad last year that we had essential oils people at the fair. And someone for one of those cleaning supply companies who was telling bad facts. And an MLM supplement company. Oof I’m realizing how much work I have ahead of me now!

    2. Nanc*

      I don’t know what your company does in terms of allowing folks to order their own chairs, etc., but one of the best things I ever saw at a health fair was from an office supply company. They brought in all kinds of chairs, balance balls, standing desk, computer screens, ergonomic mouses, keyboards, etc. so you could try out all the stuff to see if you might be interested. The best part was if you really wanted to try a big ticket item like a standing desk or expensive chair they would deliver a loaner to your office so you could try it out for a week at no charge. It was a big hit!

      1. Mockingjay*

        Now the office supply company sounds useful and fun! Health isn’t always about cholesterol or BMI, especially at work.

        Maybe bring in an optometrist to discuss eye strain and dryness from computer color displays, or demonstrate how to measure the proper distance from eyes to monitor. IT can recommend an approved add-on like f.lux to mitigate light strain.

        If you veer into fitness ideas, keep it simple: posters or demos of simple stretches that can be done by all. My favorite exercises are hand and finger stretches to combat stiffness from excessive keyboard use. Map a walking route around the building for quick breaks.

        Bring in Facilities: let them talk about what they do to provide a healthy environment: from lighting, to cleaning products used (green, low VOC?), to how often HVAC filters are changed, to keeping stairwells clear for safe passage.

        1. pitytheviolins*

          Ooh yeah I can’t remember if our vision insurance people were at the health fair last year but that would be VERY helpful.

      2. pitytheviolins*

        That’s a great idea! Lots of us have our own chairs and some people have brought in the standing desk platforms. It would be cool to show people what’s good/where to get them. Yeah I want to have at LEAST a table at the health fair about ergonomics if not a whole event if we can swing it.

    3. Sasha B*

      Yeeeeaaaaaah, nope. You can believe whatever kind of hippie health woo nonsense you want, but I’ll thank you to keep that crap away from me and my workplace. I don’t blame you for being annoyed. I’m a tech guy at a big university (with a world class hospital, where I happen to be right now!) and you’d think my colleagues would be wise to how deleterious this MLM stuff can be, but every year there’s at least one. I need to get more creative about knocking some sense into the dullard who organizes it…

  71. anonmidwest*

    In a situation where a peer at work is not very good at what he does and has been coddled for a long time, is it normal to have a hard time keeping up your own level of motivation? I’ve gotten concerned that spending too long in this environment could make me get worse and more prone to running into trouble in more demanding workplaces.

      1. anonmidwest*

        Thanks. There may be some of that, but also some legitimate complaints, like having to deal with a mess this guy made because he can’t be expected to clean it up himself.

        1. BRR*

          I was going to post a similar question actually. I’m incredibly unmotivated because other people need to be let go but apparently you can fail at the core functions of your job with no ramifications. You can also go above and beyond and net be rewarded.

          So my answer is yes.

          1. anonmidwest*

            Though it does seem like passively tolerating subpar performance for a long time without addressing it and then abruptly terminating the person is kind of shoddy management.

  72. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

    60 applications in the last two months, no interviews…new grad life is tough.

    2. Sparkles*

      Have you tried joining any networking groups? In my city, we have a young professional group that meets weekly to do seminars, mixers, and other activities. You meet people and who knows- maybe you can find your future career through something like that?

      1. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

        I haven’t actually – I live in a small town and don’t have my own car to use to get to events like that. Thanks for the suggestion though.

    3. SciDiver*

      I feel you on this–I started my job search ~2.5 months before I graduated last spring. Accepted my first full-time post-grad job at the end of January. Job hunting sucks, especially when you’re an recent grad. It’s discouraging and lonely and sad, but it will end and you’ve got people rooting for you. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you, hope you get good news you can update us on soon!

      1. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

        So you had a 10 month job search? That’s rough! I guess I shouldn’t start complaining yet. I’m a little bitter because my sister had 0 work/internship/volunteer experience in anything and she found a job after 3 months of searching – and she started looking *after* graduating. Some people are just lucky I guess!

        1. SciDiver*

          Yep, it was a long slog to find a full-time gig in my field. A lot of my friends got offers through their internships or had a job lined up to start weeks after graduation, so that job-envy can definitely make a person bitter! I had my share of luck along the way (part-time work, summer fellowship, moving back home) that made it not as awful, but anyone who does that first job search out of school has license to complain in my mind!

  73. Red Reader*

    I have a team member who has a remarkable ability to make every question she asks sound like she’s trying to get someone in trouble. Like, “Did this process change and I missed it?” comes with a side helping of “or did someone else screw up here and now you have to go yell at them?” But usually it’s not quite that blatant, she’s more subtle about it. I’m not the only one with this impression, all three members of our management team feel the same way, but we’re all a little iffy on how best to address it, since it’s usually more of an implication or attitude than outright “tattling”. (And I say “tattling” on purpose, these are not significant issues that are relevant to anything, think “the purchase order says misc spotted teapots, I thought we were aiming for an average of 20 spots per teapot and this one painted by Fergus only has 18, did I miss a change or should I put two more spots on this one?”) I’m getting to the point where it’s tempting to respond “who the f cares, paint the dang teapot,” but. :-P

    1. Brownie*

      Interested in the responses here because I’m pretty sure my boss thinks of me as your team member. We’re supposed to have standards in place, not just for security, but for our push into automation, so when I ask about the number of spots on a teapot because I see someone (especially someone senior or more experienced than me) doing 2 less than I was told to do then I want to know if the standards changed. And yes, my boss has told me “who the f cares, paint the dang teapot” before, but that only makes things worse for me because then I get confused as to why we even have standards if we’re not going to follow them.

      Actually, in thinking about this as I typed the above, another option may be because your team member has developed a good job checklist based on what the purchase order says. If she matches the purchase order then she knows she’s done a good job, but seeing someone else not match brings up all kinds of “do they know something I don’t, did things change and no one’s told me, they’re senior so maybe I should be doing what they’re doing” insecure thoughts at which point she’s going to the management team to try and get clarification. It may be worth trying to give more feedback on how she’s doing or laying out rules of “we aim for 20 dots, but we’re flexible as long as the number is between 18 and 22” so she gets more comfortable realizing what’s okay and therefore what constitutes a good job.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      I worked in a place that had a feedback culture similar to this. There was a big premium placed on respect and humility, which I appreciated, but it sometimes manifested in:

      “Can you tell me more about why you scheduled this meeting on the wrong day?”
      “Whoops, messed that one up. Thanks for catching it. I’ll fix it now!”
      “Help me understand what happened.”
      “Literally just a slip of the mouse. My error. I’ll fix it now!”
      “I’m confused. What’s the background here?”

      Not sure how much more direct I could be that I just made an error? Even coming from a place of wanting to give the benefit of the doubt became this weird command to prostrate yourself before every typo. Totally different thing, of course, when it’s a pattern or a genuinely big deal, and the question is, what can we do so this doesn’t happen again? It’d be interesting to know what your team member is trying to communicate.

    3. Alianora*

      I think I have a tendency to do this. I ask a lot of questions when I’m new to a job and trying to familiarize myself with the processes. Not sure how to ask that kind of thing without making it seem like I’m either stupid or trying to get someone else in trouble. Often, I have the answer in my head, but I’m just trying to clarify.

      It usually isn’t a problem once I’ve gotten used to the job and can differentiate the important procedures from the ones that have some wiggle room.

  74. sg*

    how do you take time off work to interview elsewhere? i imagine booking time off last minute would raise red flags.. i guess trying to do early morning before work or leaving for “appointments” could work, but i feel so paranoid!

  75. Sparkles*

    So I currently work full time and I have interviewed at two locations to drop to a part-time job because I am struggling with work-life balance since going back to school full time. In my current position, I am back up to a department that takes a LONG time to learn everything. (It took about a year to be semi-comfortable as the backup). I should be hearing back from both companies soon (hopefully today!) on whether I got the job. Should I tell the person I am a back up to that I am looking/have interviewed for jobs? I feel guilty only giving 2 weeks notice assuming I am offered a position, especially since she has been out on a semi-regular basis lately due to health issues. I don’t want anyone to be mad at me, but I know I need to do what is best for me and my sanity.

  76. miyeritari*

    I’m looking for a well-reviewed temp service for some basic customer service work. Work from home is fine, though I’d prefer someone who could come into the office (SF bay area). Does anyone have any recommendations?

  77. Emma*

    Any tips on saying “no that won’t work/we can’t do that” when you’re entry level? I work on a nonprofit dev team helping to manage the donor database and I’m struggling to figure out how to tell people above me that we can’t implement their idea or change a process without getting lots of pushback. I do my best to clearly explain my reasoning, but it still never seems to land well…

    1. CurrentlyLooking*

      Try changing the “no” to a “Yes but it will take x amount of time” or “Yes but we can’t get to it until y.”

      The better way is to try to figure out what they really need to have instead of what they are asking you to do. It is very often that non-tech people will try to come up with the solution and ask you to implement it instead of telling you their problem and asking you to find the solution.

      1. Emma*

        Yes!! I try to do this, but I often forget & get wrapped up in the urgency of their request (everything gets turned into a fire drill on my team, whether it needs to or not)

    2. Curious Cat*

      I’m entry-level as well, but also have to make some decisions for higher-ups who don’t fully understand what’s feasible and realistic in the world of public relations. I find it helpful to consistently stand my ground (after all, I’m the subject matter expert in the room, not leadership) and offer explanations as to why things can’t happen. Also if possible, get your boss to back you up (assuming its not your boss you’re saying no to).

      1. Curious Cat*

        Also offer another option/solution. “We can’t do that because of XYZ reasons, but we can do this instead.”

    3. miyeritari*

      How about “That sounds like a great idea, but how about we XYZ [reasonable thing]?”

      1. Emma*

        These are all great suggestions! I also want to try telling people that I have to take some time to think about it so that I have a chance to come up with a response they’ll be happy with.

        1. miyeritari*

          That’s also useful! When people give me suggestions that I know are outlandish, I often say something like “Let me see what I can do about that, but I have to talk to [Other Person Who Will Know This Is Outlandish].”

          If they’re really outlandish, I just hope they forget about it and I never bring it up again. They usually do.

          1. Emma*

            That’s always my hope- if I ignore it, it will go away! Also sometimes I’d love to give everyone on my team a copy of my new book Salesforce Processes Are Inconvenient Sometimes And That’s Just How It Is On This B*tch Of An Earth

      2. Millennial Lawyer*

        Rather than “that sounds a great idea” if you really don’t mean that, maybe “I’m happy to look into that, but what about X/how about Y?”

    4. Jillociraptor*

      CurrentlyLooking’s advice to change your response to a “yes, but” answer is really smart.

      One other thing to think about is the degree to which these changes are bad ideas because they’re bad for your organization, or if they’re bad ideas because they’re annoying or inefficient for your work. I think you can still push back in both cases, using the “yes, but” scripts, but I think generally the latter is less compelling. Making it about, “it will take X hours more per week, which means I probably won’t be able to focus on Y, is that the right priority?” is a good way to tackle the personal annoyance side of things, but as I think we all know, sometimes you just gotta do boring, irritating, or time consuming things!

  78. Windchime*

    There is a guy at work who recently joined my team. He seems like a good guy, if a little odd. A couple of days ago, he got under my skin and I kind of lost my cool. I didn’t yell or anything, but I turned my back on him abruptly and said, “OK, I got it.” I’m worried that I am approaching BEC with him and it’s not really his fault.

    He has the same name (first and last) as my ex-husband. Not his fault, but I’m sure it’s affecting me.

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      Maybe you should talk to him, tell him that, and apologize for being short with him? It might be a slightly awkward conversation, but it’s better than your relationship with him silently deteriorating even more.

  79. CurrentlyLooking*

    Why do some companies use contractors instead of hiring employees?

    A recruiter just asked me if I would be interested in a long term contract position with a Very Large Company in my area. It seems as if all (or most) of the tech/other professional posistions at this company are filled by contractors. Some of whom contract for multiple years and some of whom are hired after their one year contract expires. I checked their careers page and there are only low level (non-exempt type) positions listed. Company is in a mid-size city in the Midwest so there isn’t a large labor shortage.

    Is this a red flag that the company operates this way?

    1. Admin of Sys*

      It saves the company on benefits and personnel costs. It can sometimes lend itself to ‘2nd class citizen’ attitudes at a lot of companies, because the contractors are often forbidden from participating in some of the ‘real-employee’ perks. (if contractors and direct employees are treated identically, the company can be sued, hence the ‘must have a break between contract lengths’ and other such rules.)
      IBM was notorious for doing this, and was the subject of one of the initial legal disputes that changed how companies can operate.

    2. AeroEngineer*

      I have noticed a lot of tech companies are using or starting to use contractors (or even contracting companies). At one company I am looking to work at, in some areas they do four year contractors, and then they “might” hire you full time. I guess it removes some of the risk and really lets them get to know how the employees work?

      So no, I would not take it as an immediate red flag. If no one ever got hired, then perhaps, or if all the contracts were only for one year and then they left the company and went somewhere else, but I have seen what you are saying at well-reputable companies before.

  80. Curious Cat*

    My company is implementing a new goal keeping system, and my department is the trial-run. Normally we set goals at the beginning of each year with our manager and they align with the overall company goals, and then we work toward them throughout the year & have a huge evaluation and check-in at the end of the year to see if we did not meet/fully met/exceeded our goals & that applies toward whether we get a raise and how much.

    Now the company is making us do this process at the end of each quarter. We just completed Q1, so we had to have goals for Q1 and had to fill out this massive online form answering multiple choice questions and filling in short answers about meeting these Q1 goals. The form was longer than the entire end of year one used to be, and now we’re expected to fill it out 4x a year (and many of my goals carry over throughout the year so I’ll be filling in some same information each time).

    Anyone else’s company do something similar? Or anyone else’s company have a better way to keep track of goals?

    1. krysb*

      At my company, we use a program to help with this called Align. Of course, when we started this process, we hired an outside firm that specializes in such things to help implement and guide us through it for a few years.

  81. kal-anon*

    Hi all,

    I’m interviewing for a new position right now, my second out of college, and one place has asked to bring me in for an in-person interview several months from now. By the time that interview happens, I hope to already have a position lined up. Can I accept the interview, knowing that I’ll back out if I get another offer before then? There will be not-insignificant air travel involved.

    Thanks.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Yes, you should accept the interview request. You have no idea if you’ll receive another offer before then. If not, you’ll be glad to have an interview lined up. If so, you can simply email the company to let them know you accepted an offer elsewhere and are withdrawing your candidacy.

      Who schedules an interview that far out? Is the norm in some industries? This seems like a terrible hiring practice as I would assume they run into the problem of losing good candidates to other offers all the time!

      1. kal-anon*

        It’s higher ed, and I was surprised too. I usually get scheduled 2-3 weeks in advance, but it sounds like there are some scheduling conflicts.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          That’s wild. I work in higher ed, too — the only thing I can come up with is that maybe they’re planning a replacement for someone who is leaving at the end of the semester? But even so, you’d think they would interview now for a start date that’s in June/July. Very odd!

    2. miyeritari*

      You should accept the interview because they’re crazy if they think you’re going to wait months without looking for something else. If you get something before then (and maybe you won’t!), you can politely tell them you have accepted another offer and you hope they find someone great.

    3. Millennial Lawyer*

      Definitely take it and like everyone else says, if you have an offer, let them know. Who knows, if you really want this job and you have an offer, it might leverage a quicker process – but that’s of course only if you’re dying to have this job. If not, then just consider the interview a back up option and keep looking.

  82. Networking Question*

    I have a small side business. I have a few leads on new clients but find I have many things I would like to speak with them about – being a potential new client, some networking opportunities, other small businesses that might be of help to them. I’m overwhelmed with how to contact them. Obviously I am only going to contact them about one area to discuss but I feel that if I do not connect with them on that one area they will miss out on other areas that may be just as helpful to them.

    Any ideas on how I can phase an initial email to say I think my small business can help you out and I have other things I’d like to discuss with you? or how to do some type of general approach.

    1. Product person*

      My advice would be to start with ONE THING, and then expand from there. You could say something like,

      “I’ve helped clients like yours in the past, helping them ___ (add important business result here, e.g., grow their revenue in 30% or more within three months). I believe I’m well-positioned to help you achieve similar results. Would it make sense to schedule some time to talk to see if my services could be a good fit for you?”.

      And, if you are truly considering becoming their client, I recommend starting there — contact the company to express your interest in potentially becoming a client, but don’t mention anything about your services at that point. Develop a relationship first, then ask who you could talk to about the great results you were able to deliver to similar companies. Unless you’re talking about very small businesses, these will be different people you need to talk to about being a client vs. having them as a client. Trying to address both topics in the same email is likely to just create confusion and reduce your chances of landing the client.

      Also, as your relationship develops, you’ll be in a better position to continue to add value suggesting networking opportunities, other businesses they might benefit from connecting with, etc. You’ll be probably better prepared to speak knowledgeably about these opportunities after you’ve learned more about your target customers, so there’s no need to rush and overwhelm them with too many disparate suggestions. Good luck!

  83. Orange*

    My career is well established and I manage nerds. I’ve recently learned that I am on the spectrum (Aspergers) I am interested in hearing from others who tuned into this information later in life. It does run in my family, but o always thought it skipped me. I am female.

    1. Asperger Hare*

      Hey. I’m in a slightly different position – I’m entry-level. I was diagnosed in my mid-twenties and am now in my early thirties.

      Do you have any specific questions about it?

      1. Rat in the Sugar*

        Hi, not the OP but I’m 28 and had my psychiatrist mention to me just last year that he thinks I have Aspergers– hope you don’t mind if I jump in with a question!

        I was wondering how much time/effort you put into getting an official diagnosis and working with a professional, and whether you think you gained any benefit from it? The doc (who I see for my adult ADHD, also recently diagnosed) said that my coping mechanisms seem to be serving me well and didn’t think I would get much value from pursuing a diagnosis, but I’m not so sure.

        After years of observing and rehearsing, I’ve gotten pretty good with conversational patterns and nonverbal cues, both interpreting and signaling, so I usually feel pretty comfortable at work and I get along with my coworkers. It’s pretty much habit now and doesn’t take much effort, so I’m not too worried about maintaining it when I’m distracted or stressed.

        However, I still have frequent issues with people not understanding me! I often get email replies that don’t answer my questions/ requests properly, I struggle to give people training on processes in a way that actually makes sense if you don’t already know what I’m talking about, and I often have trouble explaining the reasons for things I know we need to do — sometimes to the point that they don’t get done until a co-worker can step in to explain that yes, Rat is correct that we need to do this and here’s why. I’ve been working on this the past several years with all my techniques to compare and imitate, but I’m making frustratingly little progress. The higher I get in my department the more I have to work with others outside of Accounting, and I feel I need to be able to explain myself and justify my position in order to do my job well. I’m starting to feel that my techniques aren’t enough.

        Did getting an official diagnosis make anything easier or clarify things you didn’t understand before? Also, have you worked with a medical professional or support group etc., to work on your communication techniques or recalibrate your expectations for certain things? I’ve already had one moment of clarity when the doc first asked if I’d discussed having Aspergers with anyone. One of the questions he asked is if I have to have plans for everything, and while I don’t always need to have a plan for everything it is V E R Y upsetting if someone deviates even slightly from a plan we’ve agreed on, to the point that it feels like a deliberate act against me. I always thought this was a normal way to feel and that people who were more cavalier about following plans were just thoughtless. Now that I know my intense feelings are not the norm, I’ve already changed the way I make plans to accommodate for this and it’s definitely reduced my stress and improved my communications with others. I keep wondering what else I’m missing, but then maybe it’s normal to have some issues like that at work? My coworkers have told me it’s normal for people not to understand accounting, but if there are improvements I can make I will gladly put in the time with a therapist or coach.

  84. Talia*

    I’m doing some side work freelancing for a startup, and I just got an email saying we are going to “revolutionize what it means to be a part of [industry]”.

    Um. We are doing stuff with databases.

    In the same way, my regular job in going to institute a very complex employee reward system involving handing specific regular customers reward tokens for them to hand to us when they experience or witness a particularly good interaction, which we are then to pass to other people. Some of these reward tokens have specific company values in them so we are supposed to watch for an employee who promotes diversity (what exactly would that look like?) or one who is in another department (we do not interact with other departments regularly, so this involves going into another department, on work time, to lurk in a corner and watch them interacting). It is supposed to promote excellence. And there are *actual* rewards attached to this (things like comp time) if we accumulate enough reward tokens. If you go for a certain period of time without getting any, then management will have a sit-down with you “to help you figure out what you are doing excellently”.

    Either we are interested in excellence because we are professionals who care about our jobs, or there are larger problems that this isn’t going to fix. In neither case is this an actually useful thing. And they’ll spend loads of time and money on this and then complain about the amount we spend on (cheap sheet) cake for the staff meetings.

    Is there something about getting into management that makes speaking in buzzword a required language?

  85. poop_emoji*

    I’m starting a new job soon and I am so, so excited! My current job is super toxic and terrible, and I’ve been looking for something else practically since I started here nearly 2 years ago. It’s been a slog, but there’s (finally!) a light at the end of the tunnel. Since this work environment has been so very awful, it’s going to be weird to be in (what seems like it will be) a functional workplace.

    Any advice on setting yourself up for success in a new job, particularly after escaping a really bad one?

    1. Anonygrouse*

      Congratulations! For me, there were a couple main things.
      1) Being easy on myself (not my usual style…) as I tried to understand the norms at New Job and unlearn most of my default reactions to what should be typical work stuff. The trauma from Old Job is real, so it is totally reasonable to require an adjustment period! There is also a great AAM thread on this kind of thing — https://www.askamanager.org/2017/06/ask-the-readers-times-when-work-warped-your-thinking.html
      2) Probably goes without saying, but if you do something outside the norm and someone says something like “oh, did they do something different at your last place?”, just be brief and professional! Sometimes I would have to remind myself that I didn’t need to provide a crazy detailed justification for something so minor, or that the person asking the question didn’t mean to start a peer counseling session with me.
      3) If you still have friends at OldJob remember that it’s OK to set boundaries re: talking about stuff going on there. You’re starting fresh and it’s 100% the right thing for your focus to be on that and for you to feel good about getting this opportunity. The thread on this from earlier this week was very good (https://www.askamanager.org/2018/04/my-coworkers-at-my-toxic-former-job-still-vent-to-me-about-how-bad-things-are-there.html).

  86. silvertech*

    Any professional cleaner reading? Or cleaning expert? ;) I started working in this industry a few months ago and I’m looking for all the the tips and tricks I can find, plus strategies to stay motivated and focused when I’m cleaning huge properties or I’m just plain tired. All in all, I like my job, which is surprising to me, but I want to get better, as I had a couple of complaints in the last 2 weekd (which I discussed with my boss).

    1. poop_emoji*

      Ask a Clean Person! She’s had columns on various sites and has a delightful podcast as well

      1. silvertech*

        Wow, I just looked for her, there’s so much stuff to read and listen to! Thank you SO MUCH.

    2. anonagain*

      I’m not a professional cleaner or an expert, but I like the Clean My Space videos on Youtube. They might be a bit basic, but they sometimes talk a bit about the business side of running a cleaning company too. It’s pretty interesting.

      Congratulations on the new job!

  87. Not a People Person*

    Does anyone have suggestions on how to phrase “I need to never speak to clients” for interview purposes?

    I am very good at, and enjoy, back office work, but direct client contact (phone, email, in-person) gives me panic attacks while I’m preparing to go in the following morning. When I apply for back office, I’ve been getting offers for front office, reception, and client support even I get to the interview. I explain my lack of interest in these by saying I’m “not a people person”, which so far always gets the response of “you seem fine to me”.

    I don’t really want to get into mental health issues in an interview, but my ability to be appropriate in an interview says nothing about my ability to handle long-term contact with strangers!

    1. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

      “How much of this position involves client contact? I’d rather work more behind the scenes.”

    2. Talia*

      Can you just say that you’re not interested in those positions and that you’re only looking for back office work? You don’t really need to give them a reason for that beyond “This is the kind of work I’m interested in and looking for.”

    3. Grace*

      We are the same person! I actually just quit a job b/c I specifically asked about meetings and was told there were hardly any. The job ended up being 70% running video conference meetings with outside contractors and internal sales people in remote offices. I was riddled with anxiety and had to quit.

      The way I try to phrase it in interviews is: “Will this role have client contact?” or “Is this a client-facing role?” If they say yes then that’s when I try to avoid pursuing the role further.

    4. Kendra*

      Maybe something like “Thank you for the offer, but I’m not comfortable interacting with clients and I much prefer back office work,” possibly followed up by the positive reasons you enjoy and are good at back office work. If they push it, just keep repeating the “I’m not comfortable with xyz” part and mention that you don’t see that changing anytime soon.

      1. Not a People Person*

        Thank you! I think this phrasing helps clarify that I’m not interested in working on being better at the client facing aspects and really just want to do my thing.
        I know I can make more money in my field talking to clients. I don’t need a bigger paycheck.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          Are you okay if your “clients” are coworkers? Or do you really just want to stick to back office/operations type roles? If you’re okay talking to coworkers/supporting coworkers, you can also talk about the concept of “internal support”. How you like being part of the team that supports the company staff. Discuss making their lives flow more smoothly so THEY can put their best face forward with the company’s clients. Talk about customer service in terms of treating your coworkers as your customers. You can express “passion” (or whatever) for THAT kind of work and use that as a reason to turn down roles that are truly external client facing.

    5. Millennial Lawyer*

      I support something like the first comment “How much of this position involves client contact”- when you say you’re not a people person, that implies you can’t work with colleagues, which is not a good look.

    6. Nacho*

      Maybe replace “I’m not a people person” with “I’m not good with people”. “I’m not a people person” usually means other people aren’t good with me, which invites people to comment on how friendly you seem to them.

    7. Mimmy*

      I was always taught to frame these things in terms of preferences rather than “I’m not good with…” or “I can’t…”. So say something like “I prefer focusing more on back office work” and give examples of how your skills line up with such roles.

      I can relate: I was like you for the longest time. I’d been trying to avoid direct client contact myself because I too tend to panic, especially when I have no idea what to expect or if I think my day will be hectic. Last year, I got a job working with blind & visually impaired adults. It was initially described as a “float” position–that is, I’d be helping in different instructional areas. However, I ended up becoming the primary instructor in one specific area. I still have slight panic attacks in certain situations, but I’ve been able to work through my anxiety enough to become comfortable interacting with the students, and most of them enjoy my class.

      For me, it depends on the pace. I’ve learned that I do best when working 1:1 whereas dealing with a stream of clients/customers all day long is out of the question. So going forward, I know that I could probably handle a small degree of direct client contact but would also need time and space to do non-client work or to decompress.

      While I’m still somewhat annoyed about the bait-and-switch and do not want to be in this role long-term, I am kinda glad I was pushed out of my comfort zone. I’m not suggesting that you take the same route I did. You definitely should aim for jobs that will play to your strengths and won’t significantly impact your mental health. I just wanted to offer a different perspective.

      Good luck!!

  88. Why Do You Need My Driver's License*

    I’m applying for a great-sounding position after looking for a year and some setbacks. But the official application asks for a driver’s license number and salary history. For the DL #, I put on the line “available on hire” and left the salary of previous positions blank. My state doesn’t have any legal restrictions on asking, so I’m wondering if they’ll tank my candidacy because I didn’t “complete” the application/pay attention to the form if I leave that information off. Is it worth the risk–two of the previous jobs I can’t even remember the final hourly rate, and the old pay stubs are in a box in storage as we’re moving soon. For what it’s worth, the salary is union-controlled and set, but I also worry my previously lower rates will make me seem like I’m not “worth” what they’ll pay (but this position is a natural next step up from places that had different budgets). What would you do?

    1. Irene Adler*

      I think you approached this wisely.
      My responses would be similar. No one needs prior salary #s. Or DL until they’ve hired me.
      It may be that they use a generic form and aren’t concerned if applicants leave these things blank.
      IF these things turn out to be important, they will let you know. Presumably because they are interested in pursuing you as a job candidate.

  89. Interview Questions for Bigwigs*

    What are some good interview questions to ask higher ups? This person would be the boss’ boss’ boss and his title is SVP. The role I’m interviewing for would not cross paths with him that much (if at all) so I’m at a loss as to what kinds of questions I can ask him! Thanks in advance :).

    1. only acting normal*

      Asking about his division/department/section’s strategy and how your role can contribute would go down *a storm* where I work. However, I don’t know if that’s just an particular obsession they have here or if it’s a more general thing.

    2. Lora*

      Corporate culture is set from the top, so these are the people I tend to ask about that sort of thing, bearing in mind that there’s going to be a non-zero disconnect between what they imagine and what happens in real life. But it’s valuable to see exactly how wide that disconnect is, so these are the people I ask about diversity initiatives, career development opportunities, managerial vs non-managerial career tracks, networking opportunities, things of that nature.

    3. Fabulous*

      What do you like about the company?
      What challenges have you faced here?
      What does success look like to you and how does this role support that?

    4. LibbyG*

      You could ask about big-picture goals for the company or division and the role of the particular unit you’re applying to in that transition. That could tell you a lot about the longer-term viability of the gig.

  90. qwertyuiop*

    We have everything on a SHARED drive at work. (Did I mention that it was a SHARED drive?) My co-worker and I have to enter data into MS Access- this is not our only job, we’re not data entry, but the higher ups are very micromanaging and will send us screen shots if something is wrong. (Along with an e-mail if there is an issue.) The higher ups also use the database and manipulate data in it- so it’s not just us.

    Why can’t we have meetings to discuss issues? Why is it such a big deal/why can’t they just go in and fix it? Why do they have to point it out?

    1. Graciosa*

      If you and your co-worker “have to enter data into MS Access” – apparently on instructions from your bosses – why would you think it is not your job? Your bosses get to set the priorities.

      I’m also a little confused about your wanting meetings to discuss issues rather than a quick email with a screen shot. It is a boss’ job to point out items to be fixed so you can not only correct the individual mistake, but also learn from it and avoid repeating it. It seems a little odd to think that this is inappropriate in some way. It is also a classic example of bad management to have general meetings (or impose general rules) and waste everyone’s time and energy to avoid giving an individual instruction.

      While this sounds like a fairly normal job, it doesn’t sound like one you – personally – want to do. That’s fine, of course, and the sensible thing to do is to recognize it and find a way to move to something you like better in the future.

      Good luck.

      1. qwertyuiop*

        I think you may have misunderstood me- I’m fine with it and am doing it as part of my job, yes. The problem is that they are very meticulous with it and if there is an entry error, they make a big fuss over it. The database has errors in it, but I’ve only been at the job for a couple of months now, so this happened prior to my being there. Other times, we have other people causing the errors, yet my co-worker and I are blamed for the majority of the problems.

        1. Reba*

          Ooooh you’re not responsible for all the inputs, but you *are* responsible for all the mistakes! Yeah, that’s worth a conversation.

        2. Seriously?*

          I can defiantly see pointing out errors being an important thing since the goal is not just to fix the mistake but prevent future mistakes. The problem is when they are not even your mistakes. If you want to bring it up to your boss you should probably do so from the angle of trying to limit access other people have if they keep making mistakes. Complaining that your bosses’ are meticulous would not be a good angle to go from.

      2. Reba*

        I think qwerty is saying that it’s not their *only* job, i.e. they have lots of other tasks they do and it’s annoying to get screen shots fired off from the bosses at any hour of the day. Did I get that right? Plus, the bosses are going into the DB and finding the mistakes in the course of their work, but not correcting them.

        That said, I think Graciosa’s point about accepting this as they way they do things is probably the deal.

    2. J.B.*

      How much flexibility do you have? If there are common errors, can you come up with a query to identify them? Then propose to your bosses that you run it weekly or whatever so there’s a formal process.

      Also, it would be better to set up reports or printouts for your bosses of what they need rather than having them review and potentially manipulate tables directly.

      (Access makes me twitchy at this point, but that’s a whole ‘nother conversation.)

  91. baconeggandcheeseplease*

    Quick question regarding how to list a company on my resume — In my last job, I worked for a major company that got bought out by another company, and of course the acquisition killed the previous company name. So I worked at Teapots Inc. but it’s now it’s Sharks & Fish inc. Do I list it as Sharks & Fish (formerly Teapots Inc) or something else? This acquisition was a really big deal in the industry so I’m sure that people will know what’s going on, but not sure the official way to present it.

    Additionally, it looks like Sharks & Fish is looking to sell off the brands I was working for, so..not sure how to list when that happens, but I guess I can cross that bridge once it happens (ifI’m still looking for a job).

    1. Joanie*

      I’m in this situation and I list it as Teapots Inc. (later acquired by Sharks & Fish Inc).

    2. Fabulous*

      I’m in the same boat… I have it listed as:

      Sharks & Fish (formerly Teapots Inc, a subsidiary of Llama Llama)

    3. Mononymous*

      I had this situation, and I handle it on my resume as:

      Job Title, Teapots Ltd. (now Sharks & Fish Inc.)

      My reasoning is that Teapots Ltd. was the entity that signed my checks when I worked there, so I assume that’s the company name that would show up on any background checks done by prospective employers. I never actually worked there while it was Sharks & Fish, so I have no employer/employee connection with that company name. If it had changed names during my tenure there so it was Sharks & Fish at the time I resigned, I’d list it the way you’re describing, though.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      Did you work after the acquisition or just for the company before they got acquired? If the company got bought out after you left, I wouldn’t use ‘formally.’ If Teapots is entirely gone (sold off assets, dropped name entirely, etc) I’d probably just use ‘Teapots, Inc’ and explain that they got bought out in the interview / reference process. If Sharks and Fish absorbed Teapots, and there’s some continuity of products (Shark and Fish Teapot line), I’d use ‘Teapots, Inc (now Sharks and Fish)’.

      The only time I’d use ‘formally’ is if you worked for Teapots and they merged with Sharks and Fish and you worked for a decent length of time at Sharks and Fish as well (ie past the transition / merger) In that case, I could see using ‘Sharks and Fish (formally Teapots)’ because it gives the continuity that covers your employment timeline.

    5. baconeggandcheeseplease*

      I worked for them before the acquisition. I know that everything is changed over on Linkedin, so if you search the brands I worked for, it just falls under Sharks & Fish, but I’ll just list the company as you guys suggested and then just clarify anything in an interview.

      Teapots Inc (now Sharks & Fish)
      Job title, BRANDS

      This was immensely helpful, thanks guys!

  92. I'm Not Phyllis*

    I’ve been waiting for this open thread! My officemate made two comments to me that I’m having trouble letting go of … one was saying that she’s upset because she thinks her son might be gay but she knows she can’t control that, and then she said that she would rather he be a drug addict than gay. (For what it’s worth I’m also not judgy about people with addictions issues – we work with them! – and I don’t see any correlation between those two things at all.) I know I should have spoken up in the moment but I am the worst and didn’t know what to say. Now I find myself looking for excuses to work from other locations or be away from my desk. I’m avoiding any kind of small talk. (If it matters I’m a bisexual woman, but I’m currently in a relationship with a man – so I’m sure she assumes that I’m heterosexual. I don’t think that should matter, but it might explain my reaction?) What do I do now? I can’t avoid her – we share an office. Do I report it? It doesn’t seem like the right move to me for some reason. Do I let it go and move on?

    1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      Okay so. I’m gay myself. And…I probably would have reacted the same way in the moment. It’s one of those things that is just really appalling and shocking to hear (or it should be, imo) so you’re not a terrible person for being caught off guard.

      I don’t know if I would report it right now – it depends on how seriously your company takes it and how pervasive the comments are. If it continues, definitely escalate. For now, I’d suggest just being coolly polite to her. She’s still the same person as before, you just know she has abhorrent views on LGBT people now.

    2. 3 months left @ toxic job!*

      I’m gay, and I’ve had people make the occasionally homophobic or well-intentioned but offensive comment to me. One of the problems with being LGBTQ is you can kind of hide in plain sight and people can say things to you because they have no idea you’re gay. I don’t /know/ if you should jump right to reporting it. Would you want to just say something like “hey I’ve been thinking a lot about what you said about your son, and I have to say it upset me.” If you feel like coming out and putting a face to the community you can add, “I’m bisexual and I know if my parents said something like what you said I would have been very hurt and it may have strained our relationship.”

    3. miyeritari*

      I definitely would also probably be too stunned to say anything, but you’re prepared now! If she says something like this again, you could subtly suggest that you don’t have time for that kind of bigotry. For example, something like “What about that would make you love him less? He’s still the same person, right?” Or “Wow, drug addictions can have seriously damaging effects on people’s life. That’s a pretty harsh thing to say about your child.”

      I’m with Llama Grooming Coordinator, as shitty as it is, it might be useful to know how your company feels about bigotry before reporting it. For example, do you know anyone else in the company who isn’t straight? How would they feel, or have they experienced bigotry?

    4. Seriously?*

      I’m sorry. That really sucks. I don’t think you should report it at this point, but cutting out small talk with her makes sense. Be polite and cooly professional. If she says something again or asks about the change in attitude, you can tell her that her homophobic remarks upset you, but that is completely dependent on whether you are comfortable doing so. You don’t owe her an explanation for a change in your interactions with her so long as it does not affect your professional relationship.

    5. CurrentlyLooking*

      I am sorry you have such a crappy co-worker. Don’t feel bad about not responding at the time. What she said was appalling.

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I don’t think I’d jump to reporting it just yet. And don’t beat yourself up for being too stunned to reply in the moment.

      What you should do is prepare a couple of scripts for if she brings up the subject again, depending on how much you want to (a) reveal about yourself and (b) engage with her about the topic.

    7. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Thanks for the responses! This is an LGBTQ-friendly place and there are many of us, including my direct supervisor and our CEO. I’m not closeted at work, but my officemate is new (not the organization, but to my/our workspace) and doesn’t know me very well. I have no doubt that if I were to bring this forward it would be taken seriously, but I would rather not at this point unless it happens again. You’re right – I know where she stands now, and thanks for confirming that I’m not being ridiculous by not doing the whole small talk thing! Professional and polite, but otherwise cool.

    8. SciDiver*

      Fellow bi woman here, it’s 100% okay you couldn’t really respond in the moment, I know I certainly couldn’t! I’d agree with the folks above that reporting her is a bit premature, but if it’s bothering you and you feel comfortable talking to her about it, you can approach her or wait to see if she brings it up again. Sometimes I’ll prepare two scripts depending on whether or not I decide to come out to the person in the moment, but if I blank the well-place Carolyn Hax “Wow” goes a long way.

  93. Kendra*

    I’m a senior in college, graduating in December, and I need some advice about internships for the upcoming summer. Last summer I worked at a local company doing teapot maintenance and upkeep, and while it was good experience and paid well, what I would really like to do is teapot research. I found and applied for the perfect teapot research internship at a company out-of-state, one that I am qualified for and is in the exact field I want to work in, but their hiring process is very slow. All I know is that I’m still in the running and final decisions aren’t being made until the end of April. My old manager has offered to have me come back and work there again this summer, but I need to give them an answer soon. Do I reject my old manager’s offer and take the risk of not having a job at all this summer? I have enough savings to survive if I did that, but it’d be very tight. Or do I accept my old manager’s offer and run the risk of either having to reject my dream job or burn a bridge with my old company? If I did accept my old job back and then backed out, is there a way to do that without completely burning that bridge?

    1. Lily Rowan*

      I think I’d be honest with your old manager — that you’re in the running for this internship, but won’t know until later. You run the risk of their staffing up for the summer before you know if you have the internship, but I don’t think you will have burned any bridges. People hiring summer employees have got to know that they have a lot going on in the spring.

    2. Millennial Lawyer*

      I would follow up with the other company and say you have another offer and inquire if there’s any way you’d be able to get an earlier response – if that’s not possible, I would go back to your old manager and say exactly what you’re saying here. “I loved working on teapot maintenance, but I’m really interested in teapot research and still waiting to hear about an opportunity to do that – is there any way I can confirm with you by end of April?”

      Hopefully you’ll be able to work something out! People tend to be more understanding about these things with interns.

  94. only acting normal*

    So Micromanager threw me under the bus with a customer. >:(
    He copied me into the end of an email chain where in an earlier message he said a deliverable was late because “Only Acting is working on it”. Yes I’d been working on it since January, but I finished my part 3 weeks ago (2 weeks ahead of deadline). It’s late because *he* hasn’t done *his* part.
    I have never once in 10+ years delivered late: I know how to prioritise and if a non-critical deadline needs to slip I *negotiate it* well in advance.
    Micromanager is awful at managing his own time, but insists on trying to micro-time-manage me and others (“don’t send X to our manager for review, I don’t want them distracted from Y”, “I’m not going to give you my comments on A because I don’t want you distracted from B”).
    I am so sick of this, I’m going to have to position myself to move off his projects, because it’s completely undermining my confidence and (quite literally) affecting my sanity.

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I’d be tempted to reply all that you sent him your part three weeks ago and wanted to make sure he received it … but maybe that’s not the best advice.

    2. A (former) Cad Monkey*

      I can relate. My standard reply for this type of situation to the client was that the project was at the review stage and apologized for the delay “as it was out of my hands”. Of course, most of our clients knew this was code for the boss had it but wasn’t doing anything about it.

  95. RoadsGirl*

    This is rather education-specific, but looking for any fellow teachers/educators who might have insight:

    I recently informed my school, when contract intention time came around, I would not be returning in the fall. This has been an incredibly difficult school year for me. The school culture and direction is undergoing an awkward and possibly unstable shift. I have been assaulted by elementary students and have been butting heads with the administration. Plenty of shady stuff has gone on. I’m far from the only one leaving.

    However, in job searching I dread the common question of “Have you resigned to avoid non-renewal?”

    Because of my deteriorated relationship with the administration, I do have to wonder if I would have been non-renewed. But I resigned before any of that conversation actually happened.

    Would I be good on saying “No”?

    2. Julianne*

      Even if they might have planned on not renewing you, you excessed yourself first. (Resigned, whatever term your district uses.) So you’re good saying no.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Yes, you can say No in good conscience. You resigned because you don’t want to be there any more, not to avoid non-renewal.

  96. MoinMoin*

    This morning we’re having a really bad freak Spring snowstorm after being nearly 70 degrees yesterday. While I was getting coffee at work, I overheard two people discussing an interviewee that was running late because the roads are really bad (which is true) and since she wasn’t the strongest on paper the HR interviewer wondered whether they should just cancel altogether if she wasn’t able to end up coming in today. But the hiring manager said the interviewee’s communication has been really prompt and professional throughout the process and “she’s done everything right so far, I’d like to see if there’s more than what was on paper.”
    So, maybe not for every position, but friendly reminder that every aspect of you presented can be important while job hunting.

  97. MissGirl*

    Any last minute tips for a phone interview? I’ve met with recruiter; this is with the hiring manager?

    2. nep*

      I found when I did a phone interview the other day that I need to work on how to close my responses. I tend to trail off, and it can make all the difference in the world to end an answer with a firm and conclusive statement; even if the entire answer doesn’t flow as well as you’d like, having these firm closers can help in a huge way. Helps confidence throughout also.
      Good luck!

      1. nep*

        (The tricky part there is not to sound scripted — fine line, but you want to have a good idea of how you’re going to end each statement, without sounding like you’re reading.)

  98. Crazy Work Drama*

    So I know I’ve mentioned in the past that we brought back a fired employee as a sub. I got more information this week. Any shred of respect I had for my boss is LONG GONE.

    He strong armed a regular sub of ours to take on Cornelius. Basically threatened that we wouldn’t ever use them again. As we’re their main source of work, they begrudgingly took him on.

    When we was visiting a client earlier last month, he accidentally broke a custom piece of equipment that was over $20k. My boss just shrugged and said since Cornelius was a sub, it’s not our problem it’s the subs’.

    Then Fergus (not my boss, not really anyone’s boss but he acts like he is) went on a mission trying to get Cornelius’ login info reinstated so he could have access to prior emails and all our files. HR and IT had a fit.

    So when we had another employee leave recently, Fergus tried to use his info for Cornelius. Except IT had caught on to the previous plan and immediately shut it down before he walked out the door. Because of a previous kerfuffle with a laptop (trying to use a former intern’s for Cornelius which is a whole other long story…), LeavingEmployee was instructed to take their laptop home where a label would be sent so they could email it back to HQ directly.

    This is all such a clusterf*ck. And, yes. I am trying to get out of here….PRONTO.

    1. anonmidwest*

      I assume sub = “subcontractor?” Is your employer really desperate or something?

      1. Crazy Work Drama*

        Honestly? I don’t even know anymore. Things have gotten so ridiculous and so out of hand here, that I can’t keep track.

  99. Annie Mouse*

    Does anyone else find that the weather has a huge effect on how they feel about work? My job is outside a lot but in the last week we’ve had torrential rain,wind and snow during my night shift and it was horrible, and then last night going in the sun was out and it felt like a completely different outlook! Even though I knew I’d be spending most of the shift in the dark. Do people in offices and other environments feel the same effect?

    1. Denise*

      I feel that way because of my commute. Standing on a bus stop in January in the dark at 6am in 14 degree weather will start to get to you and make you wonder if it’s worth it–especially if you’ll be coming home in the dark as well. I started the job in the spring but knew the real test of how I felt about it would come during the winter.

    2. RoadsGirl*

      Rainy days actually make me more excited about work. I live in the desert, rainy days are rare, and I love them. It rains, I’m just happy.

    3. Tris Prior*

      Yes! I work in an office, so I don’t need to be outside, but I use public transit and the walk to the train in the late-season cold/ice/snow has just been unbearable this week. I do feel a little better if it’s at least sunny, but I’m starting to think my seasonal affective disorder has less to do with light and more to do with how painful it is to be standing outside at the train stop with cold wind blasting in my face.

      1. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

        Oh! Me too! I am completely convinced that my SAD (the acronym always makes me smile at least a little tiny bit) is more related to temperature than light. I love being outside (in comfortable temperatures) so once it becomes cold I tend to feel very constrained and it causes my anxiety to shoot up because doing anything seems to take extra planning or the planning to needs to be extremely precise (eg: when it’s warm out I don’t stress as much if a friend is running late to meet me for lunch or my train is delayed and I have to stand in the cold or I have an hour gap between work and my yoga class – because I can sit in a park, or at the worst, just walk around).

    4. SarahTheEntwife*

      Yes! I walk to work and a nice walk in the sunshine vs slogging in through the rain makes a huge difference.

    5. Oxford Coma*

      I work on a company campus with multiple buildings, and it is so hard to psych myself up to run out into this miserable slop for a thirty-minute meeting. It’s so tempting to “forget” but I can’t bring myself to do that.

    6. AeroEngineer*

      Yes, definitely. Sunny days make me much more happier about work and going to work, and rainy days make me feel just… blegh, even though I only really experience the weather on the commute.

  100. Snark*

    Well, I’m trying not to count any chickens before I have a firm letter letting me know they’ve hatched, but all indications are looking favorable for my being offered a federal position sometime soonish, and most likely but not assuredly before my last day with my current employer. This is not stopping me from being pessimistic, anxious, and grouchy at times, because that’s how I work. Hold off the balloons and confetti and whiskey until I have an offer letter in my hands, but things are looking auspicious.

    1. Sara without an H*

      Cautious congratulations. Here’s hoping the omens continue to break in your favor.

    3. CG*

      Glad to hear it! Hope you get news soon. I know that was a bit of a bureaucratic mess you were dealing with…

  101. TotesMaGoats*

    So, I’m just a little pissed at one member of my team. One of our colleagues, who she may not know deeply but knows who she is and would say hello in passing type of knowledge, had a horrible accident on vacation outside the country. Airlifted back. Major surgeries. etc. I passed around a get well soon card for everyone to sign. She refused to sign it because she doesn’t know her.

    Urg. I know we’ve had long strings about this with everyone all over the spectrum about whether or not to sign and I fall firmly in the camp of sign the damn card. I’m getting close to BEC with this person anyway but come on. The hurt person wasn’t a complete stranger. You know her. You’ve spoken to her. You can’t say “get well soon”?

    1. Mediamaven*

      That’s actually sick. What a nasty person who sign a card. What kind of person is this?

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I definitely fall more into the “sign the card” camp too, but I’m wondering if there was some kind of monetary collection involved. If I couldn’t afford to donate, I’d be hesitant to sign because I wouldn’t want it to look like I contributed when I didn’t.

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        Nope. I only need you to write “get well soon” and your name. Even though I”m going to send flowers and such with my own money. This cost you some ink, which we happily provide.

            1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

              It is horrible that this person refused to sign the card, but I think WellRed is right about the injured worker not noticing a missing signature. I wouldn’t bring it up to the injured person, but I would definitely keep this incident in mind in the future because that’s a great example of someone showing you what kind of person they really are. I hope your colleague gets better soon! I’d sign the card!

            2. Undine*

              Yeah, I don’t think everyone needs to sign. I had a relative who had to spend 3 months in a foreign hospital before being Medivac’d back, and while I for sure appreciate everyone — including co-workers — who stepped up and helped out, I don’t think less of anyone who didn’t. When I was younger, I felt very awkward about these things and I thought they meant more than they did, like only for close friends. Even now, I’m not big on signing cards. Either it’s meaningful, which is a high bar for me and probably not most coworkers, or it’s practically meaningless, in which case it’s practically meaningless.

              Also, we’re all affected by these things in different ways. A horrible accident to a coworker can cause anxiety or bring up memories of trauma. Some people may respond by withdrawing. You don’t know what it brings up for her.

        2. Not signing*

          I would feel really uncomfortable and unhappy about being expected to sign such a card for someone in that position who I did not know. “You’ve spoken to her” really is not enough for me. It feels like a demand to perform emotionally about someone who I am not close to at all.

          I think it’s unreasonable to expect everyone to sign the card, and I think you are being rather unkind. It sounds like you care more about getting the credit for making everyone sign a card than about the actual person who got hurt, who I am sure will not give a crap if this person they don’t know has signed a random card. Sorry you don’t get to feel that warm glow of self-righteousness.

          2. Faintlymacabre*

            Signing a card is about as low stakes emotionally as you can get. My first day of work, they brought a card around to sign because someone’s dad had died. I didn’t know the dude at all, and I’m sure he would not have noticed or cared if I hadn’t signed it. But I did, because losing someone you love sucks. No prior relationship needed to say sorry, that sucks. But if it’s toooo much work for you to say “Get well soon”, that is good information to have about somebody.

            Or as the advice columnists would say, “Wow.”

    3. valentine*

      I don’t understand why different ways of being in the world are okay until we get to signing the card/going to the funeral. Why doesn’t it suffice to have the signatures/attendance of those who want to sign/give comfort/mourn/pay respects?

  102. Valenonymous*

    Warning, incestuous office romance question ahead.

    I work in a department of 4 (manager and 3 employees) ranging in age from early 20s to late 30s, and unmarried, and all friends outside of work (we’re expats on a small island, so that’s not unusual). A month ago, Coworker #1 broke up with his girlfriend (who doesn’t work here) and started dating Coworker #2 a mere 2 weeks later. There were some eyebrows raised outside the office because of how quickly it happened. But they were friends first, everybody here is laid back and so far things have been cool, although we’ve been avoiding the ex-girlfriend socially. This week, I find out that Manager is dating the ex-girlfriend (they were also friends previously, as I said; we all were). Although he was trying to keep it quet, Coworker #1 knows and is apparently okay with it, though he hasn’t discussed it with me. Is this bizarre or is it just me? Does this have a chance in hell of turning out okay, as long as everyone remains cool about it?

    1. Ainomiaka*

      Maybe not okay, but not that unusual for small expat community. Can work if everyone is super mature and reasonable, but I wouldn’t count on it. That said, in severely small dating pools people can surprise you.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah it sounds like the house dating pool is prettt small, so this sort of thing is bound to happen. It also sounds like it doesn’t involve you, so just live and let live and say nothing.

    2. Reba*

      “apparently ok with it” — your assumption is that they would not be ok with it? I mean, they are not dating the ex anymore, she’s the ex. No claim.

      I mean, as you said it’s a small community. None of it seems that strange to me.

    3. OK*

      This seems so much more common these days. My daughter dated a guy in college who ended up marrying her roommate. Daughter is still friends with guy who is now divorced and considering moving to her area of the country (he can live anywhere he wants). Daughter is open to seeing if there is a relationship potentiality if she is single at the time.

    4. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      Eh – it’s a little weird, but just in a “hm *shoulder shrug*” kind of way. Given the small social circle/dating pool aspect of expat life on a small island, its less weird that it would be in an area with a larger pool of available people.

      I think it can turn out ok as long as everyone is mature and non-possessive. I’d put the likelihood at 50/50 – that’s just like a pure guess though. But then I’ve also set up/introduced exes with other friends… So…

      The only thing I’d say you can do is start prepping some neutral responses in case things go south with any of the parties involved and you start hearing about it.

  103. Ainomiaka*

    I have an interview for a job that is similar to mine but a notable promotion! I’m excited. Problem is another dude in my office has an interview too, and now wants me to tell him about the questions. I’m not going to be specific, but I do want some scripts if anyone has some. He wants to talk about this job, and every time he tells me something it’s not true. He told me the interviews were in a building that doesn’t exist! I did correct that (it seems too much like a cartoon villain to send someone to the wrong building) but how much else should I say? He’s also telling me to study about stuff that is in a totally different dept. I don’t know if he is faking me out or seriously that clueless or what.

    1. Snark*

      I think you can decline to discuss it at all. “Good luck with your interview, but I don’t really want to discuss the process with a fellow candidate. Of course you understand.”

      1. Valenonymous*

        Sounds like this guy thinks you’re a threat and is trying to mess with your head. Feel free to ignore him.

  104. Paper Towel*

    What can I do to fix or correct myself when  I crack under pressure, or when I feel like I am drowning and anout to lose it?

    As background, I am job searching because I realize I am burnt out at my job. I have a ton of vacation banked and have been trying to take one day off every month to recharge but my boss does not respond to my requests.
    On top of this, I provide help desk support to over 250 people (and, when teams are overloaded, their online donors. When I get firm with people by telling them they’re being unreasonable or not following the procedures we have (requests at 4:56 pm to have something ready for 9:00 am next day), I worry that it shows that I am fraying at the edges. Our organization is a big deal.on our area and I don’t want the frazzle to affect my search.

    1. 3 months left @ toxic job!*

      You’re doing a great job already. This sounds like an immensely stressful job, and you’re already taking steps to reduce your stress. Have you thought about taking a whole week off instead of a day here and there? A staycation may allow you a couple days to just recharge and a couple days to focus on the job search.

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      You need a vacation, and your boss needs to communicate with you about your requests off. If you have been emailing, try calling. Ask in person, at their desk if you can. Act like this is just a misunderstanding and your requests have been falling through the cracks, not that your boss is intentionally ignoring you (who knows; that might be the case and they’ve been meaning to get back to you). Go get your days off! You earned them, and then some. Good luck!

  105. ShopLady*

    I posted a week or two ago about my employee that doesn’t seem to take any direction or really onboard feedback that I’m giving her (lots of ‘Okayyyyyy’ said in reply). I’ve come back this week from a very stressful 10 day ‘holiday’, during which I worked the entire time, to find out that employee had left her notice on my desk. Hooray because she’s been problematic the entire time I’ve been here (nearly a year) and any attempts at coaching or training were met with lots of whining and pretending she was too dumb (her words) to learn.

    The woman I took over for was ready to fire her after 11 years working together in a miserable situation- the hatred was mutual between them. Predecessor wasn’t the nicest person and I saw in the beginning that Employee was trying, so I gave her far more chances than I should have to improve and really become a proper assistant manager. All along I heard that Predecessor ‘never let me do anything. never let me learn’ etc., but I’ve found on my own that this is really just Employee making excuses and lacking the skills required for the job (she literally does not know how to type a word document up. Her resignation was hand written, as was her application/cover letter 11 years ago).

    Well the real kicker is- turns out I’M the reason she’s quit. She doesn’t have another job to go to, but because I’m ‘aggressive’, ‘on a power grab’ and just ‘really very rude’ she is ready to quit. After years with someone who outright bullied her! I’m head of department so not sure how much power there is left for me to grab….I’m shocked and also pretty hurt by the accusations. I’ve done a lot for her, even tried to get her a pay rise for the first time ever, and she’s now leaving because she thinks I’m rude. My coworkers and manager have insisted that’s not the case, but I’m struggling to rebound from the accusations (and the crying she did). I was specifically called out for sending ‘aggressive emails’, but honestly I’ve looked back and there’s only one line that could be construed as rude where I said ‘This is not an acceptable answer’ when I found she shirked worked and ignored customer orders. I don’t send her many emails because her computer skills are lacking and because we share an office.

    Coworkers have said she’s really pissed at the previous manager who treated her badly for so many years and that Employee probably thought it’d be better with someone new- I’m being treated as a scapegoat or at least a target for her anger. I’m also about 30 years younger than her (we’re both women) and I think she does resent taking direction from me.

    How do I work with someone for the next month who so clearly hates me, but for rather unfounded reasons? Thankfully my manager doesn’t believe a word Employee says and we’re just biding time until she’s gone, but Employee is now playing sweetness and light to everyone and I’ve come out looking like a villain because I’m not discussing the issue with anyone. I’m coming up on the busiest season and biggest event of my career and I feel like morale has just taken a nosedive. Any advice?

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Do you really need to keep her on for the next month? Is the value of the work she does (and actually does, not what her role is supposed to do) enough to offset the problems she causes or deepens? Or do you have a contract or something that requires her to stay on? Because it sounds like you might be better off just telling her that her last day is here or putting her on leave until her notice period is up.

    2. Sara without an H*

      Do not, not, not take this personally. Your employee has a long history of immaturity and unprofessionalism. Why would you take such a person’s opinions seriously? Given this woman’s history, I really doubt that you’ve “come out looking like a villain” to anybody who knows her. So put that thought out of your mind.

      Do you really have to keep her for a month before she leaves? (For my money, your organization has already carried her much too long.) Talk it over with your manager, and your HR department, if you have one. This might be a good time for the “Since you’re so unhappy, we’re moving your last day up to this Friday. Do you need help cleaning out your desk?”

      So just concentrate on being detached and professional and mark the days off on your calendar.

    3. Undine*

      I bet there are plenty of people who are glad she’s leaving and don’t think your a villain. You’re not hearing from all the people who are sensible, keep their heads down, and stay professional. Someone in your office is silently cheering.

    4. Jerry Vandesic*

      Let her go on Monday morning. Thank her for her service. And then have her leave the building.

    5. Eye of Sauron*

      This is pretty common. Yes you are getting the brunt of this, but guess what, only the employee sees it this way.

      I’m pretty confident that all the other employees knows the real truth. You are not the villain and you have nothing to discuss with anyone. You know how you get through the next month with her… by planning for and starting to interview all the great new candidates that are going to apply.

      Seriously, don’t give her any head space. Normally I’d say set her to task for documenting her duties, but I don’t think that would be very useful. Instead, give her some of those thankless ‘nice to do’ tasks to keep her busy and out of your way.

    6. rubyrose*

      The Countess is correct – get rid of her now, if you can.

      Also, think of it this way – should you really put any stock in the opinion of a whiner who was not interested in training?

    7. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      My initial reaction is a bit different than the coworkers. My take is that her anger is directed at you because it’s clear that you’re not going to put up with her antics for forever. Your predecessor put up with her for 11 years – you mentioned that predecessor was ready to fire her, but I would guess that employee figured if she got away with this behavior for 11 years then nothing was going to change.

      However, you came along and are offering actual feedback (and then probably following up on said feedback) and employee sees that you are most likely NOT the kind of person to put up with this for 11 years, so now you’re the big meanie who might actually fire her.

      In the end it doesn’t really matter. It really sucks to feel like you look like the villain, but I’d also guess that other colleagues/employees are more aware of the situation/can see through her angel routine than you might know or are giving them credit for.

      Anecdote from my life – I don’t know if it will help at all, but its kind of therapeutic for me to talk about this now that I’m far enough out of it: I was in a situation where a coworker seemed to really hate me for completely unfounded reasons (def a bit different than your situation, I realize) – to the point that this coworker brought false allegations against me to HR and our dept head. It was so stressful, and yeah in theory all I had to do was hold my head high and let my work speak for itself, but the deck was stacked in her favor – I was new to the dept, she was beloved by the dept head, and she had purposely isolated me from the rest of the dept so that all of my work flowed through her (so no one else really knew much of work aside from what she told them). I put my notice in because I could see the writing on the wall, but still had to work with this person during my notice period (which was 6 weeks – because I needed as much time as I could negotiate to find something new).

      Anyway, the point of this is – the thing that got me through was realizing that in the story in her head I was like some cartoon villain. In her head I was so *evil* that it was ok to lie about me to try to get me out of her orbit. Like in her head, I was Lord Farquuad (from Shrek – I don’t know why that was the example that seemed to stick in my head, but it did), but this was so absurdly funny to me. B/c obviously I am not Lord Farquuad. She could spin that story to whoever she wanted, but in the end it was just a silly fairy tale. Sure, some people were taken in by her tale (though it was truly very few), it still helped that I knew it was a fairy tale and that anyone who actually looked into it would see it for one as well.

      If you can get rid of her sooner, do it. If not – just do what you have to do to get through the next month. Visual cues are really helpful for me. Create your own little discrete countdown clock (like put 20 pushpins – or however many biz days she has left – up somewhere and move one everyday) or hang a little picture of a cartoon villain in the corner of your monitor – something to visually remind yourself that there is a set time that this will end. Even if other employees are falling for her angel routine, once she’s gone your work and professionalism will speak for itself.

      1. ShopLady*

        Thank you all for the great comments- very helpful in changing my attitude going in to work this Saturday morning!

        Her contract (were UK) states she needs to give a months notice and to be totally fair I can’t cope at the moment without her to at least cover shifts/breaks/etc. It’s pretty uncomfortable, but she does have a week off now plus I can cut our actual overlap down significantly if I plan my meetings right. If things deteriorate I do have the option of paying her notice period but asking her not to return. Although I run a business, we are part of a larger CofE organisation and no matter how much I want to see her off I need to play it as kindly as possible in fitting with our values.

        I think Sunshine you’ve hit the nail on the head- she’s found she can no longer hide her lack of skills in the role whereas before it was very easy as the manager was part time (side note- this is a huge mistake to have the head of dept work less than the assistant!). The breaking point for this seems to have been while I was on leave and we were admittedly very busy. She failed to process 6 customer orders in our stipulated time period despite having hours on multiple days before needing to be on the shop floor. There’s really nothing she needs to do before we open and she has a staff member with her at all times. My response that it was unacceptable came after she told me she managed to package one order and take it to the post office (very antiquated system), but couldn’t get to the others. Meanwhile she had not contacted a single customer to explain their orders would be delayed. This was meant to be her project to take over to show me she had the skills to be an assistant manager and she’s dropped the ball on every one.

        My ultimate focus now will be keeping team morale high as we head into the busiest period we’re likely to ever have. Luckily they’re all pretty keen on the extra hours they’ll be getting so I think we’ll be okay! Plus now I get to hire someone with the skills needed to take the business to the next level- win! I will, however, work on my tone because I’m sure I can come across as abrupt without meaning to. I’m also an American working in a British office which causes more inadvert drama than I ever anticipated.

        Thank you all for the advice/support/laughs at Lord Farqurd imagery. I’ve always been partial to Cruella de Vil so I’m going with that!

      2. Windchime*

        I agree; employee is resigning because she knows the jig is up.

        I am currently in a department of about 12 people and we have a kick-ass manager, Jane. Jane is fun, supportive, understanding, and flexible but she also runs a tight ship and holds people accountable. A rumor was going around that parts of another team were going to join our team; one person on that other team, Susan, has said she would quit rather than work for Jane. My first thought was that Susan doesn’t want to be held accountable because she knows Jane’s reputation for people following her (totally reasonable) rules.

  106. Anxious!*

    I’m not sure whether to accept a job offer because I didn’t think I clicked with the interviewer. I was initially going to turn down any offer I would get because of the impression I got from the main interviewer. I also currently work at a workplace with a somewhat relaxing atmosphere, which I would be giving up if I left. However, this new job will give me experience that I covet because I am working towards a certification. The work isn’t exactly what I would like but it will be helpful for the future. My current bosses know I want to move to a bigger role because I need the experience but no openings have been confirmed (also because things move slowly here).

    Any insight would be much appreciated!

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Is the person who interviewed you the same person you’ll be reporting to? Was it because you didn’t click, personality-wise, or was something else giving you a bad impression? I think it’s worth noting that some people are just not great interviewers. But if it’s something else about the company making alarm bells go off for you, I would say – trust your instincts.

      1. Anxious!*

        Hey there, thanks for your response. I made the mistake of not clarifying the interviewer’s position (it’s also not in her email signature) but I think she’s either an HR manager or a person in upper management. I did briefly chat with a manager who would be supervising me if I got the job, and he seems ok (nothing popped up that was a question mark during our chat).

        The work itself is not what I would love to be doing, but it definitely opens up a lot more doors than what I am doing now. The bosses at my current workplace have known for a while that I want to move up but the lack of responses has made me sort of uneasy and restless.

      2. Anxious!*

        On the topic of the interviewer, she answered her phone (personal call) during the interview, which didn’t sit well with me. She also spent almost 30 minutes talking about admin stuff (salaries, vacation days, etc.). In the past, most of my interviews have focused on the role and responsibilities and spent maybe 5 minutes on “admin” stuff. She also mentioned how in the past she had hired people who may have been dishonest on their resume, and how she handled those situations, which kind of scared me because everyone embellishes their resume to a certain degree to make themselves look good.

        1. Ainomiaka*

          Most of the time when people talk a lot about admin stuff it’s because they don’t have a lot of details about the position. Which sounds pretty normal for an HR person based on my experience. If she’s not the direct person to report to, I would give her not knowing day in and day out details a lot less weight.
          I definitely concur that if you feel something off don’t do it, but an HR person isn’t going to be a big part of the job.

        2. I'm Not Phyllis*

          Yes, that would turn me off as well. You really have to decide if it’s worth it for your career, even in the short term. I know it can be easy to say “oh I can handle it for a year” but if you’ve been in an unhappy work situation before, you know that it has a big impact on your health and the rest of your life too. I’m not saying that you’d automatically be unhappy here – and unfortunately the only way you can know for sure is to accept the offer! But definitely give it some serious thought this weekend.

    2. Graciosa*

      Can you add a little more color to the “didn’t click” comment?

      On the one hand, every professional is expected to be able to work with just about everyone else in the work environment. You don’t have to like someone to work with – or for – that person. I’ve had a lot of bosses I didn’t “click” with – and some I actually disliked or didn’t respect – but I was able to work with / for / around them effectively.

      This is actually an important skill to develop that will stand you in good stead throughout your career.

      On the other hand, there are people in work environments who are the reason that I only said professionals should be expected to work with “just about” everyone. A truly toxic manager can do incredible damage to your career long after you no longer work for them.

      So, what do you mean when you say that you didn’t “click”?

      1. Anxious!*

        Hi there, you raise a very good point and that certainly brings a new perspective. As well, I don’t think she would be my direct manager. I did get a chance to speak with the person who would be the supervisor, and nothing came up that worried me.

        As for this interviewing manager, she answered a personal call during the interview, which didn’t sit well with me. During the interview she also talked a lot about hires that didn’t work in the past (either they didn’t inform her of huge vacations coming up or she felt that some candidates’ performance didn’t live up to their resume). During the whole interview, I felt like she was doing most of the talking, and she was a little more aggressive, whereas in the past, most of the interviews I had were more of a discussion, and a little less laid back.

        1. Graciosa*

          I tend to cut people some slack on personal calls at the moment simply because I have someone with an urgent medical issue in my family. Not enormous slack – I generally answer only a few numbers and state “I’m doing X right now, can it wait?” knowing the answer may be “Just meet us at such-and-such hospital.” Discussions of grocery lists or what to do about dinner shouldn’t be interrupting an interview.

          The rest sounds like it gives you a good picture of who so is, and at least some areas where she is demanding. The question then becomes more about how this role would interact with yours, and whether the demands would be tolerable. Someone needing to know when I’m going to be out for two weeks I could handle. Someone demanding to schedule my day to the minute (and yes, I had that happen!) is not acceptable to me.

          The other sense I’m getting is that you felt devalued because of her lack of interest in hearing from you – which could be the result of a regular personality trait or just poor interviewing skills. I could discount this element as well from a non-boss, but that’s me – you could feel differently about it; a “just the work” culture is not the most collegial and not for everyone. Is her attitude common in the company or – if it’s just her – how much impact would she have on your day to day work?

          I do think you’re smart to the pay attention to these cues and think carefully about what you want and where you will flourish.

          Good luck!

  107. John V*

    Is this a new interview routine. 2 Different scenarios

    1. I was filling out an online application for a job that requires SEC registration. So I get asking for my SSN and DOB. However they asked my marital status. Is this normal? FYI a large US Bank.

    2. I was on a phone interview. This time for a large multi national bank. I spoke with the internal recruiter for about an hour. Toward the end he asked me to provide W-2s for all jobs on my resume(some jobs are 10 years or more ago). Some of the firms I worked for were sold or closed. He said I needed to provided letters from them or other proof they were sold or closed.. Did I visit the Twilight zone. Thanks

    1. Graciosa*

      Regarding your first question, you might be interested in a previous question about disclosure requirements for financial holdings of a spouse. There are positions where a financial institution reasonably wants to ensure that you’re not violating the rules by having prohibited transactions in your spouse’s name – which logically requires that they know if you have a spouse (and then potentially more about your spouse’s financial position).

      Obviously, I don’t know anything about this particular position, but it is something you should start thinking about if you’re looking into these types of positions – any spouse you have will have to be okay with these requirements.

      1. Knotty Ferret*

        I am registered with FINRA, and I didn’t need to provide my W2s 6 years ago when I started. I believe they did do a credit check as well as a background check, to ensure I didn’t have financial issues that could tempt me into theft or embezzlement.

    2. KAG*

      Re: 2 I keep my W2s for 7 years (given that those are the IRS guidelines for non-fraudulent returns). 10+ years is absurd. I’m sure you’ve read the copious posts on this blog about salary history in general, so I’m sticking to document retention… but wow.

  108. Lalaroo*

    I have an “is this legal?” question. When I left my last job at a state agency to transfer to another state agency, my boss went in to my timesheet and changed my hours. She reduced my worked hours and charged me for about 10 hours of PTO that I didn’t actually use. Is this legal? Is it timesheet fraud? I still got paid, but I lost PTO time, so I’m not sure it that’s legal. Our state law actually lays out the leave we’re entitled to, so I’m not sure if that changes anything either.

    1. CTT*

      Oof, talk to a lawyer. It definitely doesn’t sound good especially in light of the state law you cited, but being in a state agency that could add a twist to it.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Your boss altered your timesheet to reduce the hours you reported working? That…. I am now and have always been a llama, but that sounds awfully illegal. Did you work the time you reported? Was it time you were working with the agency that boss is in, or the new agency?

      1. Lalaroo*

        I did work during the time that she changed to annual leave. She had made threats about changing my time after I left, so before I did I downloaded my computer’s activity log, so I can prove that I was logged in at the office for that time.

        This is not the only thing she’s done – I’ve also filed an official complaint against her for workplace bullying, and for assigning me job duties of a higher classification without the proper permissions and compensation. HR has bundled all of these issues together, however, and I’m worried that if the investigation on the bullying ends with a finding of unsubstantiated that they’ll also decline to add my PTO back and/or compensate me for the higher-classification job duties. So, I’m trying to find out what other options I might have to pursue those separately if that happens.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Then yeah, if you’re a non-exempt worker (or overseas, I don’t know about non-US labor law) your manager editing your timecard to say that you weren’t working when you actually were is illegal, even if you got paid for the time. Hours worked are hours worked, end of story.

        2. WellRed*

          Not a lawyer, but if she’s changing your time card and you are afraid nothing will come of the HR investigation, is this something that can be reported to dept of labor (assuming US).

    3. Seriously?*

      That is definitely something to talk to a lawyer about. It is definitely unethical.

    4. Jerry Vandesic*

      I’d suggest talking to the state labor department. They deal with employers that try to short change employees.

  109. 3 months left @ toxic job!*

    Yesterday my boss called our admin assistant (who was home sick) and told her he’d packed up her stuff and she was fired. She had made a small scheduling error, and he decided to retaliate by fake firing her (not that he said on the call that it was fake). After he hung up, our admin assistant called our direct supervisor who reassured her it was a joke.

    I’m mostly just posting this to remind myself that this is NOT normal behavior, it is NOT a funny joke, and I’m NOT crazy for being upset with my boss’s actions. I texted the admin assistant after I heard about it, but my direct boss doesn’t understand why I’m frustrated with my boss’s action.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Your boss is horrible. Your poor admin! She should get an extra day off and/or a gift certificate for something relaxing. NOT FUNNY.

      1. 3 months left @ toxic job!*

        I’m shocked she hasn’t left already. My boss is such an abusive bully he usually runs his admins out in less than a year. His behavior has disenchanted me quite a bit to the industry, which I used to love!

    6. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      Newp. A good rule of thumb is if Michael Scott from The Office has done it, you should not do that thing. What a dick.

      1. Seriously?*

        That is exactly what I was thinking! I do not understand how anyone can think of it as a “joke”. He wasn’t joking, he was punishing her by terrifying her about her job security.

        1. 3 months left @ toxic job!*

          I told our direct supervisor that if he ever pulled that with me, I don’t know if I would be able to continue working for her. I have an end date in sight, but the longer I stay the more I’m tempted to go to temp work. I’m also glad to hear that rational people feel the same way I do!

    7. General Ginger*

      How anyone can think that’s a funny joke is beyond me. You’re not kidding about the toxicity of the job!

    8. SciDiver*

      Not normal, not funny, not okay at all. So sorry this is your situation right now, thank goodness you have an end date in sight.

  110. Job Hopper???*

    I work in a field in federal government where (unless you are climbing grades) people typically stay 3-6 years in a given location. At my age, people are often in the “last job before I retire” or “I don’t want to uproot the kids” so more like 8-15 yrs. I’ve had a series of 3-4 yr stays. Left the last two positions due to SERIOUS management issues (serious as in people ended up in prison).

    I took this job just under 2 years ago and it turns out it was really misrepresented. Let’s say I was a top-of-my-field llama groomer, over a whole team of junior groomers. This position was sold to me as being the sole llama groomer but in charge of everything. Instead, it’s more like sorting llama grooming tools into boxes. Time consuming, and needs to be done, but something of such low skill level most offices delegate it to interns or even volunteers.

    My skills are rapidly going out of date, making me less hireable elsewhere in an already fairly competitive field. But I have a real fear of being a job hopper. There is nothing egregious about this office…it’s just so boring my work ethic is going downhill right along with my skills.

    Would you stick it out a couple years to avoid being a job hopper? Or start looking for jobs now before my skills are so out of date as to be meaningless?

    (Adding more complex tasks or detailing into other offices is not an option…I’ve already pushed that pretty hard with both my supervisor & the next level up. The tedious, unskilled labor job still has to get done and there isn’t anyone else to delegate it to. They are convinced it’s harder than it is and won’t let me recruit volunteer/interns to take it on either.)

    1. Snark*

      You’ve been in the position two years. There’s no way that even looks like job hopping, so go find a more ambitious job. Seriously, this is not an issue – less than a year, maybe that starts to look job-hoppy, but not two years.

    2. Colette*

      If you left today, you still wouldn’t look like a job hopper – it’s been almost 2 years, and your previous jobs were 3-4 years each. Start looking.

  111. AnonForThis*

    I sometimes have sensitive conversations with people in my office, so I have a generic white noise machine outside my door. However, the walls are very thin, and I know the person next door (whom I supervise) can hear through the walls. Our desks share the wall, and my phone is right there.
    The other day, this person overheard me on the phone with my boss (who works in an entirely different building), and became upset by what she heard. It wasn’t a bad conversation, she just only heard one side of it, and made assumptions. Boss and I were reviewing this person’s eval, and she was walking me through certain steps in the software b/c I wasn’t doing it correctly. She hasn’t yet come to me about it (she went to another person, who went to someone else, who went to my boss, who told me). I’m not going to say anything to her about it until she brings it up – however, I need something that can allow me to have private conversations on my phone without her overhearing. I can speak softly, but sometimes the person on the other line can’t hear me. I don’t want to feel like I have to hide in the corner of my own office and whisper into the phone.
    I thought about getting another white noise machine and putting it in the corner, but I worry that the “whooshing” will make it hard for ME to hear people on the phone! Any thoughts or strategies to try?

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      That would be really frustrating. I don’t have any other suggestions for you unfortunately, but I do think it’s reasonable for you to have a conversation with the person to tell them that you’re aware that they can hear you, but you need for them to not discuss the conversations they hear (!) with other people. That’s a completely reasonable thing to do.

    2. Snark*

      I mean, I know this is going to be inconvenient, but you really can’t be having sensitive discussions where this person could hear them – she heard something about herself, and that’s bad enough, but she could also hear about a third party, and that’s a whole nother can of worms. You’re going to have to either hold these conversations in person or in an adequately isolated space unless they’re willing to move your office.

      1. AnonForThis*

        I definitely understand that. It’s challenging b/c sometimes it’s very time sensitive, and I can’t get over to the other building to do it in person (my supervisor is also out and about a lot, so sometimes cell is the best way to communicate). Whenever possible, I do, but not always possible.

        I admit that I’m both annoyed at myself for letting this happen, and frustrated that she went to someone else, who went to someone else, who went to someone else.

        1. Snark*

          Yeah, I totally understand how and why it would happen. In the case that a phone conversation is the only practicable way to get in touch with your boss, I’d advocate going to a conference room or somewhere else that’s physically removed. It’s really important that this not happen again, even if it’s time sensitive.

          It’s frustrating that she went to third and fourth parties, but it’s also understandable, because she heard something she wasn’t really supposed to hear.

      1. AnonForThis*

        That’s a good idea! We are having a full building renovation soon (maybe next year?) so I can add that into the bid – better insulation/soundproofing the walls.

    5. Short & Dumpy*

      My manager ran into that when he was going to through the termination process with someone. He went to the home improvement store and bought a bunch of those solid foam insulation panels, painted them the same color as our walls, and put them on the wall people could hear through. He just braced them as opposed doing some adhesive/nail method that would have damaged the walls. It was a pretty cheap solution and did a good job muffling. Wouldn’t look great in a fancy office setting, but he has a pretty plain private office. Or maybe if you put some foam acoustic material it would help? The hard surfaces in offices seem to be especially good at conducting sound.

    6. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Since this will be an ongoing issue and it’s pretty serious is there anything that can physically be changed about your office to make it more soundproof? Can facilities add acoustic panels to the walls? Even adding a fabric room screen or bookcase to that wall — maybe even on both sides — might dampen the noise transfer enough.

    7. Nanc*

      Can you rearrange furniture so your desks and phones don’t share the same wall? Or put corkboard or something over the walls to help muffle sound?

    8. Natalie*

      I think music could possibly help? Even soft music will obscure words and make it hard understand what the person is saying.

      1. AnonForThis*

        These are all great ideas, thank you. Unfortunately, due to the way the ethernet cables are hooked up, I can’t relocate my desk, but I could do music or something else that I just run when I do phone calls. I suppose that dealing with the white noise while on the phone is better than this happening again.

  112. Bigglesworth*

    I have a question about a potentially sexist interaction at a former job. I say potentially because whereas I don’t think it was, one of my friends does. Here it goes –

    I was working at a university and was trying to work with a student to transfer in hours. In order to do so, I needed to work with a someone from a different department who was incredibly difficult. She had a reputation of putting up roadblocks, saying no to tasks that she was supposed to do, and just generally being an unpleasant person. She basically said it wasn’t possible, she wasn’t going to do it, and we should stop having our students transfer in so many hours. I mention all this to help convey why I was spitting mad.

    Due to the fact that this student was a veteran, I went to the campus VA Director’s office, attempted to professionally tell him I was incredibly pissed off and that I wasn’t able to get her to budge. This man was not my supervisor, but he was a in a higher position in the office than I was. He listened, said he’d take care of it, and then asked me if I wanted some leftover pizza from a lunch meeting he was at because I was unusually angry. He said he wife usually got angry when she was hungry and since he knew I took later lunches mentioned that it might help to take a break, eat pizza, and come back to the problem. To try to make this shorter, he was right. I felt better after eating and we resolved the issue.

    My friend said this was sexist since he compared me to his wife. Her reasoning is that if he had said the exact same thing, but said he got hangry or his husband, dad, or son got hangry it wouldn’t be sexist since he wouldn’t be comparing me to a woman. However, since he compared me to a woman, my understanding of her argument is that then means he’s placing me in a “woman” box. I fail to see this difference since anyone of any gender can get hangry. It’s not like he asked me if I was on my period or dealing with hormonal swings or whatever. This director was known for being fairly relaxed and worked in a department of mostly women (seriously…23/26 people were women). That said, I’d be curious to see what this community thinks of this situation.

    Was it sexist of him to ask me if I was hungry/angry since this is a combo his wife deals with?

    1. fposte*

      As a one-off? No. Lots of people get tetchy when they’re hungry, and he knew you were likely to be hungry. Happens his closest data point was a woman. Your friend presumably doesn’t work with him and therefore has no rounded sense of who this guy is.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Ok. That was kind of my issue when talking with her, since it didn’t make sense to me that it was automatically sexist in comparing me with another woman. Glad to hear I’m not just being blind. I don’t defend sexist behavior and I was surprised to hear her say that I was (more or less).

    2. Snark*

      No, it wasn’t. Lots of people, of both genders, get hangry when their blood sugar is low – most people, I’d wager – and comparing you to a female doesn’t put you in a “woman” box or suggest that all women categorically get hangry. Your friend’s reasoning is, put kindly, really oblique.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Ok. Phew. I’m glad to hear comparing someone to a person of the same gender isn’t inherently sexist behavior. I was really trying to understand her perspective and it just was not clicking in my brain.

    3. only acting normal*

      I’m a woman, and if I were the director I’d have referenced my hangry husband (in fact I frequently do, also I remind him to eat if I find out he’s working through lunch, to spare his poor staff). So unlike your friend, no, I don’t see the sexism here.

      1. Snark*

        And who, other than one’s spouse, do most people spend enough time with to get an intuitive sense of how their moods fluctuate around how recently they’ve eaten?

      2. Bigglesworth*

        Good to hear. That was honestly my thought. I spend a lot of time with my husband and can usually tell the difference in mood between when he binge eat all the chocolate and when he’s had a well-rounded meal. I just couldn’t quite get her perspective.

    4. Lora*

      Nope. Hangry is common to all vertebrates and many invertebrates (see: why locusts decide to swarm instead of acting like regular grasshoppers).

    5. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Nope. His wife was probably the example he was most familiar with (which is quite reasonable). If a woman had said the same about her husband, or either gender said the same thing about their gender-unspecified spouse, it would come from the same place and have the same intentions behind it.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Here’s a follow up question for you (and everyone else) – What does it mean to be unintentionally sexist? And how does this compare to being intentionally sexist? My friend’s argument was that even if his intentions were find, he was unintentionally being sexist.

        I thought I was fairly good at differentiating between the two, but I’m now wondering if I’m as good as I think I am.

        1. fposte*

          Intentionally sexist is “I believe women are inferior to men.” Unintentionally sexist is, as somebody else on the thread mentions, only inviting the men out with you to lunch or to drinks, or putting pressure on women to be accommodating in a way that you don’t do to men in the same role.

          I think there are contexts where your boss’s comment *could* be indicative of some unintentional sexism. If men came to him spitting angry would he consider the matter more serious than he did with you, for instance? But another possibility that your friend is discounting is that gender made a difference that allowed him to be more perceptive and handle it *better*–if he wouldn’t have made the connection with hangriness in a male colleague because the gender is what prompted him to realize it, that’s differentiated by gender but it’s not sexist toward you.

          I also think the fact that this was actionable–he actually had pizza on hand–makes a difference here, as does the fact that he knows you and has paid enough attention to you that this was an informed statement, not just a shot in the dark. This wasn’t a way to dismiss your concerns; it was a thing he could do to help process them.

    6. Murphy*

      I don’t think so. I don’t think of getting hangry as a gendered thing.

      My husband is the king of hangry.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Haha! Mine doesn’t get hangry – he falls asleep when he doesn’t get enough food. Between us we have two of the seven dwarfs from Snow White (Grumpy and Sleepy).

    7. General Ginger*

      Lots of people get hangry; I don’t think it’s a gendered thing. His wife was probably his most often-encountered example.

    8. Ex-Academic, Future Accountant*

      Mine seems to be a minority opinion, but I’d be asking myself: if you had been a man, would he have responded to you that way? Getting hangry is not gendered, but it sounds potentially like the same kind of devaluation of a woman’s reasonable complaints or questions that we see elsewhere (e.g. a woman being told by a man “wow, you seem really upset about this” when all she was doing was disagreeing, or clearing up a misunderstanding about something she’d said).

      I disagree with your friend, though — I think that even if he had said “maybe you’re hangry, like my dad sometimes is”, that doesn’t necessarily absolve the interaction of sexism. To me, the relevant issue is that he’s devaluing your arguments because he thinks they’re based on emotion (which, even if you’re also angry, your arguments aren’t necessarily *based* on emotion). Whether I would call the thing sexist would depend on how well you were hiding your actual anger and how he treats men who come to him with similar issues.

      Heck, even if you’d been a man, the suggestion of hangriness strikes me as really condescending of him, and like he thinks he knows your life better than you do.

    9. NaoNao*

      I think it’s *possibly* sexist in this way:
      He’s a man who you went to with a serious issue, steaming hot angry. You’re a woman.
      He did resolve the issue, but he also attributed your anger partly to outside causes, meaning he was sort of…devaluing your own estimation of how much anger this situation warranted.
      His implication that your anger is not directly and fairly in proportion to the actual situation, but is instead partly due to your hunger (which you didn’t manage properly to avoid getting “hangry” has a touch of very slight sexism, but only if looked at in a certain light.

  113. Shellesbelles*

    So, my boss took my big poster out of my work area and gave it to someone else in front of me. She didn’t ask for my permission or anything. She just took it. It was very important to me – I designed that poster for our biggest show and it was my first poster design for a major production. It was printed large scale on foamcore, so it’s not something I can really get reprinted without having to pay out of pocket.

    I know it’s just a poster, but it really upset me that she would give away something that was mine. It was one of the few pieces of work that I was really proud of and one of the only personal touches I had made to my office. I went home in tears. I know that sounds silly, but I guess I just took it really personally.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Hmm, that does seem odd. Do you have other evidence that she’s thoughtless or cruel? If not, I might bring it up and ask about it. “I really liked displaying that poster of X, do you think I’ll be able to get it back when X person is done with it?” Perhaps she misunderstood why you had it and thought it was stored in your office, or something.

      1. Shellesbelles*

        Yeah, she has done things like this before. It’s nothing new. Some examples include:
        – Giving away my new computer to the intern (meaning I still have to use my personal computer and pay for software out of pocket)
        – Laughing at me when I popped a stitch from a recent surgery while talking to her
        – Forgetting my birthday two years in a row and getting mad at me for not reminding her when she found out

        The person who she gave it to wasn’t someone who works in the office. She gave it to them to keep as a souvenir, even though they weren’t connected to the show. I had taken down the poster to measure for another poster that I needed printed (it wasn’t a standard size), but it’s usually prominently displayed on my wall.

        1. Colette*

          Honestly, she would have lost me at “supply your own computer + software”. Is this a good job otherwise? Are you treated well by others? Paid well? Good commute? Learning valuable skills?

          2. Shellesbelles*

            I get to do a lot of different things and the commute is great, but I’d have to answer no to everything else. I’m not paid well or treated very well and it’s definitely eating away at me. I think that’s why I responded the way I did to the poster incident. I’ve been looking for other work, but have been unsuccessful so far, mostly due to lack of time for looking (I often have to work long hours) and challenges with my mental health (somewhat because of this job).

            1. A Worker Bee*

              If you are still reading this, please stop working long hours for this horrible boss because your mental health is more important.

    2. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Was this to another coworker? If so, I’d just follow up with them and explain that the boss didn’t realize it was your personal poster (even if they did…) and then take it back.

      Do it at the end of the day so you can put it in your car and take it home.

      Sorry your boss sucks so bad.

  114. Not Maeby But Surely*

    I’m looking for feedback about how to handle a situation with a raise. I’ve been at my employer 16+ years. I don’t think I have ever asked for a raise. (Didn’t realize how unusual that was until I binged on this site over the last several months.) We get cost of living bumps around 2% (give or take) each year, most years. I have gotten a raise with most promotions I received, except last year when I transferred to a new department which is seen as a more prestigious department because we deal with higher dollar transactions. My attention to detail, knowledge level, and history of accuracy were a huge impact on my being switched to this role. At the time, my manager said they were giving me a 2% raise, but that next year I could expect a “significant” (her words) bump in pay the next year once I was fully independent in my role. (FWIW I was fully independent at that time, but was still only 3 months into the position, so didn’t want to argue her reasoning.) So, it’s that time again and I got a 4% increase, which amounts to about $0.88 more an hour. I wasn’t sure what to expect but I thought $5k seemed reasonable. Normally I would simply address it ASAP with my now-different supervisor but my productivity has been lagging the last few months because I was getting burned out (didn’t use nearly as much PTO as was available to me, and in not-long-enough chunks), so I’m hesitant to have the conversation now.

    Also a factor: I just returned from a full week off (first full week since March 2017) and already feel my productivity improving dramatically. Should I wait until I have a month or two of my usual good productivity before I have the conversation about the raise? I am a reliable employee with no history of problems here, and am generally well-liked by my colleagues and supervisors (both of the ones mentioned in this situation.) I would appreciate any advice!

  115. Aleta*

    Question about sick time! I have PTO for the first time in my life, and while there’s separate banks for vacation and personal/sick, in practice my employer doesn’t care how you use either (I’m guessing the separation is a union thing, as even office workers are on a union benefit plan). My job specifically requires coverage, so they want to know when I’m off as far in advance as possible to make arrangements. It’s also use it or lose it, which is what my question’s about. My instinct is to keep days saved Just In Case even though my health has been vastly better now that my poor compromised immune system doesn’t have to deal with a ton of customers’ germs. Plus sometimes stuff just comes up (like this week with a rental inspection!). However, taking a bunch of days off in October (fiscal calendar) before they expire doesn’t seem to be a great solution if I have really good luck in not needing to take any personal/sick days.

    How do other people, maybe especially chronically ill people, deal with wanting to keep a bank of days for emergencies but also want to make sure they use all their days? I am kept up to date on everyone’s days out as part of my job but I don’t know the fiscal year end goes down yet, because I’m new. My primary health problem is endometriosis. In terms of especially bad pain days, honestly sitting is my most comfortable position anyway and my work is mostly forwarding calls which is doable, and if it isn’t I’m going to the hospital anyway. But it also overloads my immune system, which means I’m really susceptible to germs and illness, and it takes me longer to recover from even minor things. In the past that’s been a huge problem, but it’s way less now interaction with random people off the street is on the level of maybe once a day, none of those people are sick, and coworkers definitely stay home when they’re sick. But even then, not getting sick at all seems an unreasonable hope, and recovery takes me longer so there’s a need for more days for one illness.

    This isn’t terribly urgent, as you get less time in your first fiscal year and it’s prorated to be even less so I have all but one day accounted for until, but honestly having only day stresses me out, hence wanting to keep some in reserve.

    1. Colette*

      I’d recommend saving sick time and not thinking of it as vacation – that way you’ll have it if you need it, and won’t feel like you’re leaving it on the table if you don’t end up using it. (And also, when you go to a move time, you’ll be comparing apples to apples instead of sick + vacation to just vacation).

      Having said that, if there are a lot of sick days, you can probably use some of them – but in general, it’s good to have sick time and not need to use it.

      1. Seriously?*

        I agree about saving the sick time, at least the first year. Save it at least until September/October and even then try to save two or three days in case of unexpected illness late in the month.

    2. The Person from the Resume*

      I’m in a different boat because my sick time does roll over, but I recommend you save the sick time. I can and do use sick time for appointments scheduled in advance. I do think you don’t want to be worried about getting sick in September or October and not having the days. Consider the possible loss of sick days worth your peace of mind. And depending on what happens in your office maybe it’s not crazy for you to take a couple off near the end of the FY as personal days even if you’re not sick.

    3. J.B.*

      Save the sick time, at least a few days toward the end of the fiscal year. See if you can preplan to be off right around that time. But do a staycation or something so that if you have to use the sick days otherwise you can unexpectedly come in to the office.

    4. anonagain*

      I have a chronic illness that means I basically always use up all the time I have.

      When I still had time banked, I would save it. When I was nearing the end of the year and I had a sense of how much sick leave I had left, I’d schedule whatever preventive healthcare visits (or miscellaneous follow up visits I had put off) I could.

      I would always space them out and do them in priority order so I still had time to cancel if I got really sick and burned through the rest of my available time.

  116. I Love Samoyeds*

    Argh— I got to vent. I thought I understood the concept of casual Friday. I work in the main HQ of a pretty good sized group of companies and because we bought a new house near my husband’s office, I was looking to see about transferring to a branch that would save me about 45 minutes of driving in each direction. I know the hiring manager as well as I could know someone who I had only met via phone and email before but today it was arranged I would spend the morning there and interview. My hiring manager (a woman about 5 or so years older than me) showed up to meet me wearing
    —A t-shirt from an event in 2014
    — Bright Purple gym shorts
    — White mens crew socks without shoes.
    I was told the branch was less formal than HQ but I am sort of shell-shocked by this, especially since my interview (and 1 other) had been calendared for 2 weeks. The interview went well, I suppose and she said she is confident she could find a way to make y current salary work , but I was surprised how informal -let’s say slovenly she and the team members I met looked. After we were done I happened to meet a colleague downstairs and I even asked if she often went shoeless. He respond “You’re lucky she had socks on today. Now in fairness when I emailed and spoke with her in the past she seemed to be truly professional. But I am wondering if this red flag is major enough I might want to stay downtown and keep looking? Thoughts anyone?

    1. Snark*

      Hm. I mean, I don’t really buy the argument that clothing determines and exhibits professionalism, and I think the way someone conducts themselves in business communications probably communicates their attitude better….but shit, I wouldn’t wear that combo to pick up milk on Saturday morning.

    2. Admin of Sys*

      My current office tends towards Birkenstocks and shorts in the office, but there’s still an assumption you dress up a bit for planned meetings and interviews. Not as much as you would if you’re the person /being/ interviewed, but there’s still an attitude of ‘try to look more professional if anyone will see you’. But maybe they already think of you as a coworker, or want you to realize just how casual the office culture is? I think it’s a red flag only if you would feel uncomfortable working with someone who thinks that’s an appropriate outfit to wear to a meeting with a coworker (which it sounds a bit like you do).

    3. McWhadden*

      Everyone is different. But I’d take that as a green flag. As someone with a job that requires a suit every day, I would love to work somewhere casual.

      I would NEVER dress that way. Like, never. Not just to work. But it isn’t actually that more insane than yoga pants, which my sister is allowed to wear to work every day. And I think the logic of not dressing up for an interview is so that the interviewee knows how laid back the office culture is.

    4. Short & Dumpy*

      oh man….I want to work with them! I sooooooooooo miss having an office where comfy old t-shirts and jeans were normal and (as long as they didn’t stink), walking around in your socks was perfectly acceptable. I’m in business-professional that is FINALLY veering towards business casual office now and I absolutely positively hate it. (And the norms in terms of performance, professional skills, interpersonal office drama, etc is actually much worse in the place we all need to wear snazzy clothes than it was in the casual attire place)

  117. Anon today*

    How do you help a new hire deal with the internal candidate who didn’t get the job? We have a new hire who is terrific and by far the best candidate for the job. This person was chosen over an internal candidate who is reasonably qualified but not nearly as good. The internal is upset about not being chosen, and is making things awkward for the new hire. They are assigned to do several tasks together, and it’s challenging when internal does not want to cooperate with new hire. I supervise new hire and try to support new hire as best I can, but looking for ideas to make sure I’m not missing something?

    1. Higher Ed Person*

      Does the new person supervise the internal person? If so, I would coach the new person through how to talk to internal. I WAS that internal person in an old job, and it suuuuuuuucked. I was professional and didn’t make it hard for new person, but they also never named it. They never sat down with me and said “Look, I know this is awkward for you. How can we work together to move past it?” If new person hasn’t talked to them yet, they need to. If new person isn’t the supervisor, then talk to this person’s supervisor about what’s happening. Someone needs to sit down with internal, and talk.

      “Sally, I understand you are frustrated that you didn’t get ABC position. You’re a valuable employee, and we want to make sure that you still feel like a part of this team. We need to find strategies to help you work well with New Person, so that the team can meet our goals. What do you think you’d need from us for this?”

      This person might just be in a place where they DON’T feel valued, and anything you say to them seems like pity crumbs. Just keep that in the back of your mind. Yes, there will be a point where they have to suck it up and be a professional, but maybe they just need someone to acknowledge how much it sucks right now?

      1. Anon today*

        Thank you!!!! New hire does not supervise internal, which I think helps the situation. New hire also has been thoughtful and empathetic towards internal which definitely helps. Some days I feel like we are moving past it and some days I feel like we are starting over!

        I need to speak with internal’s supervisor again about this, and I appreciate your example dialogue. And you’re right internal might just need people to acknowledge how crappy the situation feels for them. Thank you for your reply it’s helpful!

        1. Higher Ed Person*

          You’re welcome! It sucks to be “that” person. Everyone and their mother came up to me and was like “you were robbed! You were the best choice! They totally messed up!” okay – thanks? Not helpful. Or people would pop by my office, give me sad looks and say something like “You okay, champ? You doing alright?” And I got a lot of “pity crumbs” thrown my way. That was fun. My pride was hurt and I was pissed. There’s not much you can do about that except to give the internal candidate time and space to deal with it on their own.

          That said, it would be smart for their supervisor to check in regarding this again (in maybe a few weeks/month) and see how they’re feeling. Are there any PD trainings that this person could attend for a boost? Is there anything they are looking to improve upon, and can their current supervisor help with that? Just some things to think about for the future.

      2. BF*

        I’ve been there and it sucks! Really, really sucks. I would say she, at least somewhat, feels that she no longer has respect or appreciation from management. So a part of the conversation might also include a path for Internal to develop professionally toward certifications, promotions, whichever. Are there other divisions that she could possibly look at for other positions? As in “we think you are valuable to the company and want to keep you, let’s see if we do that”

  118. Let's play....*

    Which Job Would You Choose!

    [and why :) ]
    In this situation, you are unemployed

    Job A:
    THE GOOD: Lateral move from your last role, maybe even a step down. Permanent position.
    Hiring managers seem to really like your qualifications.
    An industry you know a lot about and are confident in.
    You would be working for an agency servicing onsite at a big, well-known company.
    THE BAD: Low-ish salary.
    LONG commute. You’ll have to take public transportation. It will take an hour on a good day.
    It’s a niche market, so you’re a bit tied to the small world of this market and the drawbacks that come with that (gossip mainly).

    Job B:
    THE GOOD: New industry for you. Challenging and demanding. Well-known organization.
    Great salary.
    Commute via car in less than an hour.
    Lateral-move-to-step-up from your last job.
    THE BAD: You would be working via a contract and onsite for this big-name organization. Contract could end at literally any moment.
    Hiring manager seemed to like you fine, but seemed a bit confused about the fact that you had generalized skills and less specialized skills. Hiring manager seemed smart and like she knew what she wanted, very woke, but seemed very overwhelmed in her job. Warned you that their environment wasn’t for everybody and that she had high standards and that she has had to end contracts in the past because skilled workers couldn’t acclimate well.

    1. miyeritari*

      After I had a 90 minute commute, my whole goal in life is to live as close to work as possible. B it is!

      1. AeroEngineer*

        I agree (also had a 90 minute commute and came to the same conclusion).

        Overall I think B is a better longer term choice, but my only concern would be the last sentence of B’s bad points, but if you think it would be ok, then B would be a good choice.

      2. Epsilon Delta*

        Same here. I would have to pick job B, simply because of the commute. Even if we had mass transit in my area, it’s not an option for me to spend an hour one-way to get to work. We actually lost out on some nice houses when house-hunting because of this.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Ooh, tough call.

      Literally the only factor that would make me consider A over B would be perm/contract distinction. And to clarify that — are you talking contract for B in terms of being 1099 contractor vs W2 employee, or is this a temp/perm distinction where you’re a W2 employee of the agency? If it’s a 1099 vs W2 position, how does the pay stack when you factor in the additional costs of being a contractor?

      1. Let's play....*

        I would be an employee of the agency, which is contracted by the client (the huge company). It would be a W2 position.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Okay, so you’re someone’s W2 either way. With that said, I’d be all for B.

    4. Fabulous*

      I’d choose B, but I’ve worked contract jobs in the past and they’ve turned into permanent placement. On the flip side, I’ve also worked contract jobs that have cut me without warning, so…

    5. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      B. I’d try very hard to make it a success, and if it looked like the contract was going down the tubes I’d use that (and the fact of the higher salary I’d be getting) to jobsearch while there.

    6. Salsterr*

      Add to the chorus of “Job B!”
      I could deal with a low salary but short commute, or a longer commute with a higher salary, but the combination of low salary plus long commute is a no-win. The only plus Job A seems to offer is some security, but as my therapist likes to say, there’s really no security in the working world.

    7. 3 months left @ toxic job!*

      I worked 90 minutes away (via public transit) once and it was truly awful BUT “the environment isn’t for everybody” is enough of a red flag to keep me away from any job so I say Job A

    8. SciDiver*

      Provided you feel confident you can learn on the job and develop the skills you need, and you have a good impression of the hiring manager, I would choose B. There will always be positions looking for someone with excellent industry skills for less pay than you deserve (during my recent unemployment, I turned down one of these offers to keep searching, so maybe that’s what leaves me leanings towards B). That being said, can you deal with a contract that *could* end at any moment? Some people might find that too anxiety-inducing.

      Good luck in your choice!

    9. BetsCounts*

      Hard B. It seems like the only thing to recommend A is that it is not contingent on the contract, but I work at an at-will state so realistically could be let go at any time. I’d make a point of having at least weekly check-ins with hiring manager B to ask how you are doing compared to her expectations and plan to spend a **lot** of time the first few months to make sure your specialized skills are where you need them to be for the job.

    10. Bigglesworth*

      I’m in the B category as well. For me it’s the combination of the shorter commute plus the higher paycheck. I’ve spent the last four years earning under $21k and don’t think i could take that much more of a budget cut.

    11. valentine*

      B. Ask for examples of the exacting standards. If it ends, it may yet lead to more work and at least you won’t be stuck or worse off. Always move up. Commutes kill.

  119. 14 years*

    If I’m reading my employee hand book correctly, managers and above get 12 weeks of maternity leave and staff only get 6. Is this cool? I get higher ups get perks, but this is more than a good parking space or an extra week of vacation. This is a month and a half of free time to heal and bond. I also get that American companies technically don’t have to do anything for maternity leave, but this seems like a “rich get richer, poor get poorer” thing.

    2. fposte*

      Can you clarify whether you’re talking paid leave or not? Everybody who’s eligible for FMLA should be able to take up to 12 weeks off, but that doesn’t involve pay. (Obviously depends on your workplace is covered by FMLA or not.)

      Assuming you mean pay, it’s perfectly legal to do this; I work at a university where employment comes in a bunch of different flavors, and packages vary considerably as a result. I get not enjoying it, but especially if we’re talking about pay, it’s not a situation that’s likely to be resolved by moving to another employer.

      1. 14 years*

        It’s paid. For the record I’m staff level and got 6 weeks. So I used sone vacation time and worked from home a bit (probably more than I’d have liked). However more than one person from hr contacted me saying they wanted me to take the time off and not worry about working. I kept thinking you know people need money Right? I wanted to light my phone on fire…

        1. fposte*

          The differential is annoying. However, only 38% of American employers offer paid parental leave and the average is 4.1 weeks. So even if you’re not getting as good a deal as your management, you’re getting a better deal than most, so maybe don’t light that phone up right away.

    3. Elena*

      Probably a byproduct of a broader classification – e.g., like when only managers and abovr get salaries and benefits, while hourly (high turnover?) employees don’t.
      But I think it’s uncool.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Eh, every company I’ve worked at has given more senior people more leave, although 1) it’s usually based on the time in service at that employer, as the places I’ve worked haven’t had clearly defined ranks that are the same across the whole company, and 2) it’s usually not that drastic (2-6 or 3-9 weeks). It is a little unsavory to do that with maternity leave, since the medical aspects of childbirth have no relation to your job, but if anything those who make more money will have a much easier time with child care and other aspects of newborn and infant care.

    5. Bluebell*

      It might not be cool, but this is still so much better than any place I’ve ever worked, I think! My current nonprofit offers nothing more than “use your PTO and then you go on 60% disability.” And the last place I worked only offered 2 weeks then once again the 60% short term disability. I’m interested in reading the comments as one of my staffers just announced her pregnancy, and we might be revisiting our (lack of a) parenting leave policy.

    6. Caro in the UK*

      I’m normally OK with higher performers getting more perks than average or low performers, but this really rubs me the wrong way.

      Thinking about why, I think it’s because I believe medical and healthcare perks should be equal across the board (and I consider maternity leave to be at least partly a medical perk). Healthcare is such an important, fundamental right, and poor health has such a hugely negative impact on a person’s life, that I think everyone should have equal access to the same benefits in that arena. Poorer people are already at a vast disadvantage when it comes to access to good healthcare (even in countries like the UK, with socialised medicine) that it feels tremendously unfair to compound that disadvantage with this reduced maternity allowance.

  120. Kate*

    Multitasking tips?
    I keep getting assigned to a bunch of different projects at work, and while the actual workload is not overwhelming (right now), I find that I also have trouble switching gears from one project to the next, which leaves me feeling like I’m wasting so much time during the day getting refocused. Anyone have tips for switching around their mental energy during the day?

    1. only acting normal*

      Some days *are* going to be catching up on a million little things from a thousand different projects, but can you dedicate some larger blocks of time to each project, not constantly flip between them? Like Wednesday morning on X, Thursday afternoon on Y, blocked out in your calendar.
      I’m at my worst when I’m exclusively working on one thing. If I’m bogged down with a project, I need something else to switch to, to refresh my brain and regain perspective. But juggling can go too far, you simply can’t get into a ‘flow’ state if you have to keep switching all day every day.

      1. Kate*

        That’s a good idea. Part of my problem is that when I’m working on one project, I’m still thinking about whether I should be working on the others. I should try to be more scheduled about it so I can think, “OK, this is my time dedicated to project X. Project Y is schedule for this afternoon.”

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I struggle so hard with this right now. I hear you’re supposed to use the pomodoro technique where you set a timer and work for five minutes or ten minutes on a task – then if you can finish it quickly while you’re in the flow, do it, and if not, at least you made some progress for today and can advance onto the next item on your list after a short break. My problem is I will fuss about things feeling overwhelmed and then realize I never got it done, I spent too much time working myself up / wringing my hands. Also I get a lot of distractions at work – constant crisis emails and people will come find me at my desk or call – so I have had only mixed success.

      1. Kate*

        I work from home, so I don’t have people just popping by, but I do get random phone calls during the day. And of course one the problems is that the people calling me are on different projects and aren’t talking to each other, so I’m constantly explaining, “I’m also working on projects Y and Z in addition to our project X.” But I do like the idea of being more regimented about it and schedule blocks of time (though 5 or 10 minutes doesn’t seem long enough to me). Maybe if I schedule it, I wouldn’t be worrying so much about what I have to do on other projects when I’m trying to get things done on one project.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Yeah I think the amount of time is kind of arbitrary, it’s just a set short block of time you promise to concentrate on the Thing. It gets you over the hump of getting started. If you end up working for an hour that’s really great too. I fall apart on the breaks, personally – they stretch out while I go back to being overwhelmed :(

  121. Anon Right Now*

    I will take any advice on how to be both a kind human and not an enabler in this situation. I am an assistant payroll working directly with the payroll accountant who’s basically my supervisor. It’s just the two of us in a very small office. My problem is my supervisor just constantly vibrates a painful, anxious vulnerability at all times. Our mutual boss asking if she’s got an ETA on a certain immediately turns into “oh my god, boss is so mad at me, I’m so overwhelmed, I can’t do all of this, how does she expect me to have this done already? I’m going to get fired”. She cries at least once a week – usually more -, any kind of confrontation or anger absolutely destroys her, which unfortunately also happens a lot because we are dealing with a thousand unions and a thousand union deals. The process of every week getting payroll out is just a constant blocking out of her non stop anxiety ramblings about how she’s bad at her job, how she can’t do this anymore, etc etc.
    I have a lot of sympathy! Anxiety sucks! I also fell into accounting to pay the bills and kind of hate it! But, I’m worried that me being sympathetic is just making her feel more justified in her emotions, when they aren’t actually an appropriate reaction to what’s happening, for example a supervisor coming annoyed that his employees didn’t get the seven dollar penalty added onto their check that they were supposed to does not need two different bouts of crying, just to cut them a new check! I don’t want to fall into the role of pyschologist, who stops everything a few times a week to give her a hug and comfort her. But I don’t know how to not comfort a crying person right next to you! Any advice on this situation I would take!
    *For what it’s worth, she is very sweet, and I think she’s genuinely upset and panicky when she is crying, it sounds like she comes from a very abusive background so the thought of anyone being upset at her does trigger a really strong emotional reaction that I completely understand. It’s just, when you are in charge of people’s money, people get upset a lot! It happens!

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Ugh, I struggle with this, but I think that when you play into other people’s anxiety you aren’t really helping them. You’re enabling the shame-dance to continue if you’re *too* sympathetic or if you try to encourage them. The best approach is to interrupt the shame routine and excuse yourself, refusing (kindly) to engage. “I can see you’re upset, so I’m going to give you a minute. We can connect later when you’re ready.”

    2. Sassmaster*

      Would it be appropriate to remind her of any EAP program through your company at a time when she is calmer? Like, hey did you know the EAP does (something not related to anxiety)? They do all kinds of things to help out employees…

      I do agree about giving her a minute and letting her collect herself if she is having a moment.

    3. Knotty Ferret*

      As an anxious person who has cried way too often at work, comfort is really not the best method! I usually wish people would pretend it wasn’t happening.

      – give time to collect herself
      – remind her of the actual request ( big boss isn’t asking for it to be done, he just needs the timeframe)
      – the EAP suggestion from Sassmaster would be very kind

    4. valentine*

      Behave the way you would if she behaved professionally. Don’t respond to the crying. Stop hugging/listening. Dial back from caregiver to good colleague.

  122. anon for this one*

    I feel like an ogre boss for asking this, but do you think that if an employee calls out sick during a crunch period, it should be more than just a vague “I’m feeling under the weather” excuse?

    I ended up having to cover for my direct report on a project he owns, including handling a conference call that he should have done and working late, on short notice. Which, if he had been seriously ill, I would have done without batting an eyelash. But “I’m not feeling well” and he comes in the next day looking fine, with no apology for the inconvenience? I’m annoyed.

    He’s my direct report so obviously I can talk to him about this, but I’m not sure whether I should. That is, am I a bad boss for thinking he wasn’t sick enough to justify a sick day?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I’m a jerk about this myself (I would never do that myself without more apology and effort) but I think you have to let it go. You don’t want to get into the business of policing other people’s sick time. However, since he was not even apologetic I wouldn’t note him down as a real go-getter type who deserves the highest rankings / raises / changes at promotion – I would just think of him as an average employee.

    2. Sassmaster*

      If a pattern emerges, talking about it would be a good idea. Otherwise the company allows sick days, so…he can decide when he is sick enough to use it.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I don’t think you have a lot of standing to do anything if this is a one-off occurrence. While it’s possible that he was taking off because he just felt like he needed a personal day, it’s also possible that the vague “under the weather” reason given is a cover for something deeply personal or embarrassing. Also, there are definitely ailments where you don’t necessarily look awful the next day — a lot of occurrences of food poisoning come to mind as being a) not polite to discuss in detail, b) definitely incompatible with working, and c) brief with not much in the way of lingering visible evidence.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      I’m a chronic migraine sufferer, which generally means I don’t *look* sick even if I feel like death. For me to actually call out takes an extreme amount of migraine and other symptoms like nausea/vomiting, dizziness, brain fog. I tend to keep it vague because my health issues are my own. I don’t want my boss to keep track of “oh this was a migraine, that was food poisoning…” I want her to respect that I’m making the best decisions for my health that I can.

      Should your direct report have thanked you for covering? Probably. Does he even remember what was on his schedule for the day? Who knows.

    5. Short & Dumpy*

      Even if the issue was that for whatever reason he got no sleep the night before (I’ve battled severe insomnia my entire life), would you prefer he come to work exhausted/not feeling well and make mistakes that then take EVEN MORE TIME to fix later on? Not to mention, for a lot of people if they can rest when they first feel something coming on they can fight it off; if they keep pushing then they end up really sick for a week.

      1. fposte*

        I think the OP should let it go, but sometimes the answer to this is “Yes, I would prefer that the person came in and underperformed.”

        1. anon for this one*

          In this case yes. The whole team is working really hard right now, and he knows this. He happened to get sick on a day that his project had a major milestone coming up, which I then burned a lot of my own hours covering because my other employees were also working at capacity already.

          So I think he should have known that his absence would be a considerable inconvenience, and either dragged himself in or at least offered to work from home. It is without a doubt what I would have done in his position.

          I wouldn’t feel so annoyed if this were a more normal-to-light workload time for my team, either — it’s not like I’ve never taken a sick day on account of insomnia before. But the harder the rest of the team is working, the higher the bar I set for myself to say that how I feel is worth staying home.

          1. fposte*

            I understand what you’re saying and have similar events where it might have annoyed me. And here’s what I’d ask myself in that situation and I’ll ask you: is this otherwise a good and reliable employee whom I trust? Am I overfocusing on what I *would* have done when that’s not the rule about what my staff *should* have done?

            1. Lil Fidget*

              Yeah I mean, there is a balance here. I’ve absolutely had people in my office abuse sick time because they knew they were going to miss a deadline / blow a meeting. If it’s a pattern then sure, it might be worth bringing up in a “i need you to manage your deadlines so that even if you end up getting sick, you still have the flexibility to get your work done on time” way – without ever accusing him of faking it.

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t think you should police his sick time. I have woken up with allergies so bad my teeth literally hurt and I couldn’t see, but been totally fine the next day. The more worrying part is not “was he sick enough?”, it is the lack of apology for leaving you in such a bind to begin with.

      So, that is what I would observe. I don’t think it’s something you should bring up now, but maybe watch and see if he’s someone who doesn’t seem to mind inconveniencing others or not.

    7. Kelly L.*

      A lot of times people are advised to not TMI their bosses when they call in, and a lot of illnesses can blow over quickly. I would say just be thankful you didn’t get a description of his explosive diarrhea.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        ^ This. If you want to be convinced I’m sick, I can easily rhapsodize, and I promise your stomach will not thank me.

    8. Murphy*

      Migraine, stomach bug…lots of things don’t affect you for all that long. Like others say, I’d wait and see if there’s a pattern.

  123. a name*

    I’m at a new job and I’ve gotten myself into a bit of a conundrum.

    Part of my job is safety and risk management, and as such, I’m an experienced safety instructor. Think CPR, First Aid, etc. My own certification was up and I had to go take someone else’s class as I can’t certify myself. Dolores is someone who has been with the organization for 20+ years and has a lot of experience in the field, is very senior, and has certified hundreds of our staff.

    Here’s the problem. Delores didn’t teach the course at all. She was using outdated written materials, had people “self teach” portions of it (ex: play with the CPR dummies for awhile), and assigned everyone the wrong online learning, which is accessible via the back end by the accrediting agency. During the class she screamed at me for doing something incorrectly and said she didn’t understand what was wrong with me for not being able to follow directions, when she had in fact given the wrong assignment.

    I was debating bringing this up to someone because as an organization, fraudulent certifications bring us a huge liability and I felt complicit if I didn’t speak up. But for political reasons I decided to drop it since she seemed upset.

    Now Delores has complained to my boss and wants my head for disagreeing with her. Problem is, I had to share the whole story with other people because of this, which means I’m now on record as having witnessed her negligent training, and as such, am worried I’m complicit if I don’t say something.

    Should I drop it and apologize, or should I fight the Goliath? If I say something, it’s going to be a BIG THING and the blowback will be ugly.

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I would say something – this is important training and if she’s not doing it correctly it’s a big risk. You can frame it from an “I’m not sure if Delores knows, but she is using outdated materials, and a previous version of the course, which has been updated because of x, y and z reasons.” It’s better people leaving the training ill-equipped to deal with safety issues that they may actually have to face!

      1. NewJobWendy*

        I agree you should say something, but you should focus on the “this training is not accomplishing its goal” rather than “Dolores is doing it wrong.”

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          I would focus on “this training is not accomplishing its goal…AND we could be found in violation of our required certifications [or whatever applies] if we don’t fix this!” kind of approach. The potential business impact could be pretty bad if these certifications aren’t just completely for show.

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Agreed with this. Whether or not Dolores did a good job at the training is a more qualitative question than whether the materials for the training are no longer the correct ones to use.

          1. a name*

            The correct materials were relevant in that the techniques are revised every 5 years. So if you’re using the 2005 Guidelines materials, you’re teaching information that’s 10 years out of date. Like when CPR went from 15 compressions to 30, for example.

            1. ..Kat..*

              She should be teaching, she should be teaching up to date information and techniques. And, a teacher who screams at students is in the wrong. If she does not fix these deficiencies, she should be fired. Please don’t make nice.

    2. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Here’s my line on this: If the person that was taught by Delores in that class had to give CPR to your partner/parent/child, would you be OK with that?

      If just the thought gave you a shiver or a sinking stomach sensation, you’ve got to report it. Figure out how you want to word it, but you’ve got to.

      I like the other commenters that mentioned framing it as a liability issue and less about Delores–we’ve got to make sure we’ve got all our ducks in a row in case of audit!

      AND, what if someone else in that class was as competent as you and has already made a complaint you haven’t heard about?

      This one sucks–it may cost you good-will at the job and tank some opportunities for you, but I’m really not seeing that you have a choice.

      Best of luck and update us, if you can.

  124. Fake Eleanor*

    Pretty sure I know the answer to this, but:
    My wife has been working as a contractor for 9 months now, at a place where, theoretically, she’d be interested in taking on a permanent role. The role she’s in is new — as in, she’s the first and only person who’s had the position.
    All signs are positive, but her boss has explicitly said that they don’t typically bring on people full time until at least a year has passed. Fair enough.
    In the meantime, she’s also started talking to someone she used to work with, who has recommended her for a job with them. That discussion has started, and she’s talking to people on the team soon.
    She’s wondering if she should tell her current boss that she’s discussing a permanent job with someone else. Overall, if she could choose, she’d rather stay where she is as a permanent employee, but there’s no guarantee that that will happen, and if it did it wouldn’t be for at least three months. She’s wondering if mentioning that she’s being recruited (which is what’s happening) would get them to decide faster.
    My take, based on previous versions of this question here, is that she should not mention the new gig until she has an offer. Her current company’s decision could be “thanks, see ya,” after all. But this isn’t quite like using a job offer to bargain a current employer into offering a raise or improved benefits, and authorizing a new permanent role may take more time than she could give if she had an offer in hand, so maybe this is a circumstance where some notice is appropriate.
    Thoughts?

    1. bb-great*

      Well, the reason you don’t tell your current boss until you have an offer in hand is usually not to jeopardize your current position. But generally, people are more understanding about non-permanent employees looking–they have no guarantees from the current workplace, after all. So unless she thinks current job is particularly vindictive on that front, it might be worth a shot. The answer may very well be that it just takes at least a year and that’s that, but the risk seems pretty minimal.

    2. SpaceNovice*

      This might be my take on it… but it’s their own fault for keeping people on as contractors for a year. It sounds like either way, the “happen” portion will fall at the same time as a year at her current position, so the decisions might fall at about the same time anyway. The “after a year” part is normal for contract-to-hire, so I don’t see them deviating from it just for that. You need an actual offer in hand, and if they really like her, they will find some way to get a counteroffer into her hand quickly.

  125. Kay*

    I saw a story on TV yesterday about a woman who says she is ‘transabled’. It reminded me of the letter Alison answered not long ago about the employee who used a wheelchair and claimed to be a paraplegic despite being perfectly fine and able to walk. when the time comes for you to ask for updates Alison, can you please put that one on the list? Im dying for an update on it.

  126. NewJobWendy*

    I’m bored at work. I like my workplace, managers, co-workers but the work itself is not intellectually stimulating or engaging (accounts receivable). This means I am easily distracted at work and my performance and productivity suffers. Any tips for staying focused and engaged? I don’t suffer from ADHD or any other mental/clinical reason that impairs productivity and performance: I’m just bored. I have plenty of work to fill a work day, and although my overall goals and priorities are guided by my manager I have autonomy to decide what tasks or projects I’m going to tackle on any given day.

    Some things I’ve tried:
    Pomodoro technique (has been helpful but short breaks can turn into long ones)
    Keeping my phone turned off (has helped a lot as I don’t visit social media on my work computer but will on my phone – again a “quick break” turns into long ones)
    To Do lists which I can reference for non-time sensitive things to work on if I feel a I need a change of pace (like filing or research)
    Do Today List so I have a very specific list of tasks that are related to my essential job functions and performance metrics that I want to accomplish. This is good in theory but in practice I look back at the end of the day and there’s a lot left un-done because I got distracted by non-work things.

    1. miyeritari*

      If your biggest issue is short breaks turn into long ones, I think there are some good productivity addons that will close your browser window after your set time. There are probably similar phone apps too.

    2. Jascha*

      I use Todoist because the little points/karma system motivates me. Earn enough points and you get free Premium! The other thing about the app that helps me is that I can add someone to a project (an overarching “category” of tasks). Instant accountability – because that person can also see what I tick off in a day!
      I’m sure there are plenty of other programs and apps that have similar functionality; I just happen to have run across this one first (and liked it).

    3. Alex*

      This is something that helps me, but I can’t guarantee it would work for others. Podcasts! My tasks are very routine (think data entry) and don’t require a lot of actual focus. So having something external to listen to and focus on actually helps me get less distracted by how bored I would be otherwise.

      1. bb-great*

        Yes, I use music or podcasts in the background when I do boring tasks for this reason. It occupies enough of the unused brain space so my mind doesn’t wander to something else entirely.

      2. Cedrus Libani*

        I do this too. My brain works better when it’s just full enough – too much and I can’t focus, too little and I get distracted. Podcasts are great for tasks that require only a fraction of your brainpower. They’re scattered enough that you can tune in and out without getting lost (listening to books on tape doesn’t work for this reason), but are engaging enough to keep boredom away.

  127. AnotherLibrarian*

    I recently lost a lot of weight and I have few few pieces of professional clothing left that fit at all. Most are much too large. This is a great thing, except I hate clothing shopping and I have nothing to wear. So, I was wondering, what is the basic work wardrobe a person needs?

    I usually have figured as long as I had three pairs of professional pants and five tops, I was okay. However, I am starting to wonder if that’s too few items. What do people think?

    I’m also curvy on the bottom (though no plus-sized, anymore) so I am curious where other tall curvy bottomed girls buy trousers. The added complication is that I have about 15 more lbs to lose, so I don’t want to spend too much money and end up with clothing that doesn’t fit in six months.

    1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      I think that amount is fine. Good luck on your journey! I have a LONG way to go but am definitely at the point where my usual clothes no longer fit at all, so I have the same problem. Except I’m an upside down triangle shape! Large chest and shoulders, normal thighs, then, because my cardio is biking, skinny little hard-af calves.

    2. Epsilon Delta*

      I have about 2-3 weeks of work shirts, and when I worked in a business casual office, I had 2-3 pairs of work pants.

      I personally would find it hard to get by on just 5 work shirts, but I don’t think you need way more than that. Also keep in mind that you might need two sets depending on your climate. If you have short-sleeved shirts that you could wear in the summer then wear with a cardigan/sweater for winter, that would reduce your clothing shopping.

    3. Ashie*

      I think that’s a totally adequate number. Personally I need more items to accommodate temperature changes and what’s going on at work that day, but if that’s a number that works for you then do it.

    4. Manders*

      That seems about normal to me. I also keep some camisoles and cardigans/blazers around to make it look like my wardrobe is larger than it is.

      (I also work in a very informal environment, you may need to do things differently if you’re in a suit and tie sort of place)

    5. NewJobWendy*

      I do 5 pants and 5 tops because I can’t always be sure my pants will be presentable the next day, but for a business casual work place I don’t think 3 pants and 5 tops is “too few.” Really, most people aren’t paying that much attention to what you wear!

      For curvy fit pants, Dress Barn has really been my savior and they carry a wide range of sizes. They have excellent integration of shopping online and in-store (try things on in store and they can order for you, buy online but return to store, etc). They have some pull on dress pants which might be more forgiving of your continued weight loss. Talbots also has a very good range of sizes; if there is a Talbots Outlet you can score AMAZING deals but I don’t know if they do “tall” sizes. I’ve also had good luck with Avenue.

      Good luck!

      1. NewJobWendy*

        The Dress Barn pants are ROZ&ALI SECRET AGENT PULL-ON TROUSER PANTS, TALL. They are super comfortable and not too expensive at $30.

    6. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Three pairs of professional pants sounds about right for a small wardrobe, although 5 tops might be cutting it a bit close, especially if the tops are distinctive or eye-catching.

    7. Armchair Analyst*

      Can I recommend a website to you? The Vivienne Files specializes in capsule wardrobes. Her thing right now is 4 pants, 4 tops, and 4+ things to mix and match, jackets, cardigans, scarves, etc. Very few but surprisingly versatile! And lovely – she takes her inspiration from pieces of art, as well as people’s lifestyles.

    8. Bluebell*

      I’d add a few blazers and cardigans – that would help mix things up. I think people notice tops way more than bottoms. I have 3 black skirts and 2 pairs of black pants (plus some other colors and patterns as well) & I don’t think anyone notices if I wear them more than once in a week.

    9. bb-great*

      nthing cardigans. I mix and match cardigans with the same handful of tank tops every week. Also, if you ever wear dresses, they can be more forgiving of weight fluctuations than pants if they’re knit material.

    10. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Not tall, just average here. When I’m going through weight cycles and I think I’ll be out of the clothing quickly, I look at some area Goodwill/Salvation Army places. There are a surprising amount of slacks available in those places, and usually for $5.

    11. NaoNao*

      I think five tops is cutting it close, as others have said. I’d maybe add some camisoles and some pull over sweaters, perhaps in a deliberately oversized look that will become more slouchy as the weight drops?
      One option is to shop thrift stores as you’re still losing. A size X top you bought for 4.99 is easier to let go when it’s time than one you paid $45 dollars for at a department store.
      Target sale rack for inexpensive business casual clothes—their brands A New Day, Merona, and Who What Wear are snappy and often under $20 for simple, classic cut sweater, pants, tops, and blazers.
      I’m tall and curvy and I shop at Gap, Ann Taylor, Eileen Fisher (I work there though and get a substantial discount, tho, be warned it ain’t cheap), Banana Republic, Target, Kohl’s brand Dana Buchman, and occasional one offs like Eddie Bauer, or Worthington or something.

  128. Magee*

    So I unfortunately don’t have a juicy story to go with this question. It kind of just popped into my head one day. But could an overly nosy coworker constantly asking when you and you’re SO will have a baby be considered sexual harassment? I know it can very easily get into regular harassment territory, depending on how frequently they ask and how aggressive they are about it. But since they are basically asking, “So do you and your SO plan on having lots and lots of unprotected sex soon,” could that be considered sexual harassment?

    1. Bacon Pancakes*

      Sadly, I don’t think so but damn, that is annoying. But you can stone face just look at them and say “That is intrusive.” and then turn away. It could work.
      As a side note, one of our employees constantly asks when I am getting married (been with my SO for 12 years, we have a 2 yo). I found shutting the door to my office* in her face also got the message across when she didn’t relent after the above statement.
      *may not be an option if you have no door.

    2. Armchair Analyst*

      Mm. Sexual harassment is usually (legally) determined to be against a person because of his/her/their gender. So, if Nosy Person asked this question equally to men and women, and also equally to straight and to LGBTQ+ people who are coupled, then no, that would not be harassment. But if single people were not questioned, then it could be considered harassment because of marital status, perhaps. Caution: I am not a lawyer.

      And obviously for a million reasons the question is inappropriate!!

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      But since they are basically asking, “So do you and your SO plan on having lots and lots of unprotected sex soon,”

      Okay, I know people like to get all pearl-clutchy about this, but people who ask if you plan to have children are NOT asking about your sex life. They do not care about your sex life, and pretending that’s what they’re really asking is kind of disingenuously prudish to me. And it doesn’t take into consideration that it’s possible to become a parent without having sex at all, through adoption or fertility treatment. Yes, this is an annoying, intrusive, and just plain rude question, but it’s NOT sexual harassment.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah, she isn’t asking about your sex life. You could have sex once and get pregnant or have sex a millon times and not get pregnant, or even get pregnant without sex at all.

        It could possibly be sexual harrassment if she was doing this because you are a woman, rather than because she thinks you’re her buddy. But the only way you could really prove that would Be if she’s had an equally close relationship with other people of a different gender to you, and didn’t ask them the same question.

        Just tell her you’d rather not talk about it. You could also tell her that if and when you decide to have a baby, you won’t be telling anyone till the second trimester, so not to keep asking.

    4. CTT*

      I am super-tempted to send my employment law prof this question because I think it could go either way! The big thing is that it would have to permeate work to the point that you almost feel like you can’t be there, which could be hard to meet? Because the employer would argue that people are rude and ask questions like that commonly, so it’s not the legal definition of hostile. But if it was several times every day, then I wonder if it could rise to that level? And a big factor would be whether that person asks all of their co-workers that, male or female, because if someone’s an asshole to everyone regardless of sex it’s not actionable.

    5. Mediamaven*

      As a childless person that is an extremely annoying question that I am well acquainted with, however, I think it would be very mean spirited to accuse the offender of sexual harassment. The person while ignorant and tone deaf isn’t meaning to offend. I think we need to be incredibly careful how we define these things so that true cases of harassment aren’t being minimized.

  129. FutureMatLeave*

    I asked this last week on open thread but it was late and I didn’t get many replies, so trying again this week.

    Have you asked for additional maternity/parental leave? If so, what did that conversation look like, what did you ask for, and did you get what you asked for?

    And part 2 of my question is, in the US, is asking for 6 months of (unpaid) leave way too much to ask for? I checked my employee manual and we are only entitled to 3 months of FMLA leave, no additional paid or unpaid leave is written into policy. I don’t know of anyone who’s taken or tried to take more than 3 months of leave, but I also don’t really keep tabs on how long people are out after they have a baby!

    1. J.B.*

      6 months seems like a lot if there’s nothing else out there. Is there anyone in your office who has taken maternity leave and can you ask them? I would talk to anyone and everyone you could on the down low. When it comes time to meet with your boss, start by asking generally about taking more than the 3 months. Then have a specific plan to offer – if not six months, 3 months and then a slow reintroduction (part time for 3 months) could be something to propose to.

      Also, if your other half has FMLA, keep in mind you can both string together some leave. That’s what my husband and I did for 2nd kid.

      Not sure if you’re planning for the future or already expecting, but good luck either way!

    2. 3 months left @ toxic job!*

      A coworker of mine banked her sick and vacation time and would use that when she had kids (she had two in the time we were working together). So the combo of her regular FMLA and banked sick and vacation usually amounted to 5 or 6 months, but I think this is really a company specific question. Just because someone people can get 6 months doesn’t mean your company will approve it. You have to ask them.

  130. W*

    I’m in a weird situation involving a vengeful ex employee and a write up for something I didn’t do, can anyone give me advice?

    I’m a new manager. I had to put one of my direct reports on a PIP a few months ago. At first, he made several BS discrimination complaints towards me, but eventually he just quit a few weeks ago. I don’t know what he’s been up to since then and I don’t care.

    I thought I was done with him once he left. Our company has a no references policy, and while I don’t like him, I don’t care about him enough to violate that. Even if I did, no one has contacted me for a reference check. But on Wednesday, I was warned by my department’s vice president, plus a vice president from the human resources department, to stop giving him bad references. I tried to defend myself, but neither of them were willing to believe me.

    I’m in a bad position now, because I was planning on staying at this company for my entire career. Now that management incorrectly believes I can’t be trusted and I might’ve opened them up to a discrimination or retaliation claim, I don’t know what to do. I don’t know what I can do to convince them that I haven’t said a word about the ex employee to anyone, and furthermore, I’m worried that the he’ll figure out that he can get back at me and do it again. Does anyone here who works in senior management or human resources have any advice for this situation?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I would schedule a meeting immediately with HR and ask them why they think you’ve been giving references at all for this guy, let alone bad ones.

      1. W*

        On the last meeting with them, they told me that the ex-employee had made complaints about bad references. Maybe he’s angry got a lawyer to send a nasty letter? Either way, it’s a lie. Someone else may have said something bad about him, but I absolutely have not. I just want to get on with my life.

        Either way, unfortunately it’s my word against his, and my word is no longer cutting it.

        1. Ali*

          But it’s not your word against his, there will be records. If they say you were called at work there are records. If it was email there are records. If it was your personal phone or email there are records. If none of their people have contacted you that can be proved.

    2. WellRed*

      If your company believes a bad ex-employee over you, for something so ridiculous (you shouldn’t have to defend yourself/convince them of anything) then you should be clearing your desk.
      As for any sort of discrimination or retaliation claim related to the bad references, he’d have to prove it, which would be hard to do since it didn’t happen. (I mean, I guess your company could cave and write him a check or something).
      Honestly, it’s only been a few weeks, I find it hard to believe he’s had a bunch of interviews that have made it to the reference checking stage.

      1. W*

        We’re in tech, in a big, growing metro area. So there are lots of job openings, and it’s very possible that he’s had interviews already. I really don’t care if he has, and I kind of hope he does get a new job ASAP so he has less time to obsess over screwing me over.

        I’m disappointed in my employer because as a big, process-bound institution, I’d expect them to follow some sort of handbook for this kind of thing – his lie (yes, he’s a liar) that I broke the no references policy, and their investigation of it. The vice president from human resources and my department head were both very firm that I was on thin ice, because this is a very serious policy.

        But I’m not ready to write them off yet. I’m just not sure what else to do. Marching into my department head’s office and saying that if they’re not going to go to bat for me, I’m gone, is a satisfying mental image but it’ll just burn bridges. The softer approach of telling him I’m upset that five years of good work is being disregarded doesn’t seem effective either. I feel really betrayed by my employer…

        1. Eye of Sauron*

          I think your instincts are right on with this one. I would go with the ‘I’m confused approach’.

          You: DH, I wanted to talk to you about our conversation the other day about Liar Larry. After our discussion I went back through any interactions or conversations that I’ve had about Liar Larry to anyone since he left and I can’t think of anything that would be remotely construed as a reference, either good or bad. Can you share with me the details of how this came came to your attention or any specifics of what it’s thought that I did? I’m very concerned that either I’ve done something unintentional or that I’m specifically being targeted.

          Who knows, is there an outside chance that you may have been telling friends about Liar Larry and it turns out that somebody used that as a reference? (I know that’s a stretch but I’m kind of grasping at straws as to why your HR VP and DH are siding with Liar Larry on this one).

          I’m sorry this just sucks.

          1. W*

            The ex employee must have made a lot of noise about discrimination/retaliation, gotten a lawyer to send a nasty letter (I know he comes from a well off family), or both. I can’t think of anything I might’ve said. No one has asked me at work, but if I was, I would say “he decided to leave, and that’s all I know.”

            I asked an older friend for advice on how to handle an underperforming direct report, but he wouldn’t spread that around, period. We’re like brothers.

            I still need to have a one on one with my department head. He’ll be more candid when HR is not around.

            Unfortunately, I think he’s making a lot of noise about discrimination or retaliation complaints, and HR has calculated the risk and is trying to pacify him. I work at an old guard, conservative company and even though the ex employee has no case, they probably want to avoid it. I hope the department head will go to bat for me, but I could see HR giving a firm line on this. I’m very worried about being marked down as a potential liability in an HR file, and having my own advancement halted. I think the department head will be open with me on that, if it’s the case.

            I really hope I’m wrong, but I’m spending my Saturday morning polishing up the old resume.

  131. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Kind of a strange question, but does losing weight help one out at work/looking for jobs/overall professionally? I have had more success at work and better interviews when I’m thinner, and I’m starting to see change in how I’m treated after going down only two waist and one top size recently. Which is strange to me, since I am doing this mainly to reduce acid reflux and asthma symptoms, not to achieve some sort of ideal. I’m not even weighing myself.

    1. Savannnah*

      Yes. Fat people are discriminated against in all facets of life. Data tells us women more so than men are affected by this at work and that includes salary levels.

    2. Anony McAnonface*

      Oh yeah. There have been multiple studies on this, one of which said, “We found that strong obesity discrimination was displayed across all job selection criteria, such as starting salary, leadership potential, and likelihood of selecting an obese candidate for the job.” (Source: University of Manchester)

      Which is gross and unfair, but explains your situation. Also, I hope your acid reflux and asthma are doing better!

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Thank you, they are. I used to have reflux so bad I would get sick often, and I had to take both daily and antacid medication. Now, I never get sick and only take antacids if I have eaten a ton on a cheat day that was acidic, like a lot of pizza.

        Asthma is better overall, I went off the maintenance medication for it. But, I’m still more vulnerable to respiratory infections and get them worse than the average person, and sometimes still have symptoms after heavy exercise. Oh well, it’s still a significant improvement.

  132. Jennifer Thneed*

    So late! It’s only 9:30am in California and already there’s 469 comments. It’s discouraging to try to post, since the first-posted items get most of the love (=comments). And yes, I can still read, and do.

    Last week I tried scrolling to the bottom and answering things from there. It was fun. Maybe again today. (Wait, no, today is a busy work day that needs to end promptly so I can get to the last-night Seder at my friend’s place by 6. Well, maybe the weekend open threads, then.)

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      This is what I do, I often start at the bottom once the threads get long. I think quite a few regular commenters do, too.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Yep, me too. It’s not that interesting to be the 117th comment on the first post of the day.

  133. Caseena*

    Recently, I was awarded a scholarship. I didn’t apply for it; the organization in question solicited one of my professors for a recommendation, and she recommended me! Obviously being recommended at all, let alone awarded the scholarship, is immensely flattering—I’m not gonna lie, it’s significantly brightened my week.

    …And, I hope, my internship/job prospects.

    For some background, the only job I’ve ever had was part-time retail work. I’ve read the resume advice here on AAM, and I can honestly say my answer to the question “what did you accomplish in this job that someone else wouldn’t have?” is “absolutely nothing.” I had a set list of tasks I was responsible for, I stayed on top of them, and that was that. There was nothing (and really no opportunity for anything) that would make me stand out from any of the dozens of other high school/college students who were hired for the junior positions there – and therefore nothing that will make me stand out from all of the other high school experience + recent degree job seekers out there.

    So. The reason I’m writing on this open thread, seeking valuable advice? I have a few questions:

    1. Is it okay to put this scholarship on my resume? Or does it belong in my cover letter? Both, maybe? Neither?

    2. If so, do I include the amount? For what it’s worth, it’s a relatively small award…still a huge help to me, of course, but there’s obviously a big difference between a scholarship that’s less than $1,000 vs. a full ride.

    3. The professor who recommended me for the scholarship bcc’d me on the recommendation letter (side note: weird? Common practice?) and in it, she specifically mentioned how self-motivated I am, something I’ve been playing up as one of my strengths. Would it be acceptable to mention this in a cover letter or interview? Something like “My ability to self-motivate led a professor to recommend me for an academic scholarship”? Or would that be weird/too much in the category of “yeah, employers expect you to be able to do that”?

    Finally, as a sidebar to that third question—I think I might actually be able to connect this to my retail job as a story about personal growth. (I got that question in one of the few interviews I’ve managed—explain a situation in which you’ve demonstrated personal growth in the workplace. It totally stumped me.)

    The most serious negative feedback I ever got in that job was that I lacked initiative—that is, that once I completed all my tasks I would go sit down and wait for them to need completion once more, rather than searching out something else to do. Do you think that would be okay to link to this recommendation as a kind of “this is how far I’ve come” anecdote? Or would it come across as silly and irrelevant, in the sense that the feedback was received years ago and of *course* I’ve grown as a person since then?

    I’d really appreciate anyone’s thoughts…on any of these numerous questions! Sorry it got so long!

    (Actually, I’m gonna make it longer. It’d be totally rude and unprofessional to turn down the invitation to the event the organization wants to present the award to me at, right? Like the message that would come across would totally be “I’m willing to take your money but not to socialize with you”? Even though the real message is “you have scheduled this at the most inconvenient possible time and in the most inconvenient possible place”? Yeah. Thought so.)

    1. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      1) I’d say put it on the resume. Anything that makes you stand out is probably worthwhile.

      2) In this case I wouldn’t, given that it’s not huge. I gave an idea of the scope of a scholarship on my resume back in the day, but it was a competitive five-year full ride and I figured it was useful for people to know that.

      3) It’s something you could bring up in an interview: very few people who claim they’re self-motivated can provide actual concrete evidence of that fact, so that’s worthwhile.

      4) Sure, I think saying ‘In a previous job long ago one issue I had was with X, since then I’ve worked on that so much I was independently nominated by my prof for a scholarship because of how self-motivated I was’ comes across well.

      5) You pretty much have to go to the event, yeah. Unless you have to miss something like a family wedding or your own graduation, or if it’s so inconvenient you’d have to fly there and/or book a hotel. Those would be plausible reasons not to go.

      1. Caseena*

        Thank you very much! I appreciate your insight – especially points 3 and 4, because I was really hesitating over those! :)

    2. Reba*

      I’d mention it in the cover letter, along the lines of what you’ve written here — You are highly self motivated so you accomplished Blah and Blah. You were recognized for this quality when a professor nominated you successfully for an award.

      I’d leave it off resume (unless you have like other awards also tagged on to your education details). And skip the amount.

      Re: the event, if you can’t go you can’t go. It’s neither rude nor unprofessional to decline invitations — but I’d say do make an effort to make it!

      Congrats!

  134. Ashie*

    My boss announced this week that he’ll be leaving at the end of the year. I am very sad. That is all.

    2. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      You have my sympathies. My boss just got headhunted (within the larger govt organisation) and was gone in a week.

      1. Dr Wizard, PhD*

        (That sounded like a one-up, sorry! Not my intention: she literally left today so it’s on my mind.)

        1. Ashie*

          Oh wow, that’s terrible! At least we get a long lead time. He swears nothing will change but it can’t not.

  135. Dorothy Zbornak*

    I’ve been invited to a 2nd interview for a job I’m not sure I want. I had a phone screen and one Skype interview – not sure if the 2nd will be Skype or in person (I haven’t responded to HR’s call this morning yet).

    A few issues: The job is in a different city, so if I do interview in person it’ll be a hike, and I was specifically referred to this job by a network contact. Would it be bad form to go through the whole process, and if I were to get an offer, turn it down? Again, I just don’t KNOW yet – I feel like I don’t have enough information. I would just hate to be that person who leads them on a merry dance just to turn them down, especially with a contact who put me in touch with the organization.

  136. Sassmaster*

    I was pushed into management and tried to do well for a year and a half and finally decided to demote myself. I do well in an individual contributor role. Now my new boss is making noises about pushing me to try management again despite my objections and my previous experience in management. Her thoughts is, well maybe your support wasn’t good for you, or you didn’t believe in the product. I told her no, that wasn’t the issue. She assumed I meant my old boss was the issue. (She was, in part, but I just don’t want to be a manager!) I argued my point and expressed my disinterest but it she would not let up. How do you make someone understand that you just don’t wanna do it when they are convinced you would be a good manager and thus should try again?

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      Tell your boss that you absolutely do not want to hire or fire, period, end of discussion. Tell them that you actively disliked being a manager.

      What is it you dislike? The responsibility for other people’s success? The endless paperwork? The lack of actually being a contributer? The focus on budget when you’re not a numbers person? Figure out for yourself what your specific objection is – that will help you be firmer in turning your boss down. (DON’T share that with your boss if you think she’ll just try to “solve” that problem for you.)

      Are you open to being in a supervisor or team lead sort of position? That might satisfy your boss. Perhaps ask her why she wants you in management – maybe she primarily wants you to teach your leet skillz to everyone else?

    2. OtterB*

      Can you look for / suggest ways to exercise leadership without moving formally into management? E.g. mentoring younger employees, working on or chairing a committee for something relating to your specialty, etc.? That might be what your new boss is seeing.

  137. Bacon Pancakes*

    I really need help adjusting myself/attitude regarding my boss’ Golden Child, who I think is just a golden-dipped turd. Over the last four years, this employee has done the bare minimum (while claiming she is “giving 110%” or “hittin it hard”). In the four years of her five year contract, she has completed one full season (the position is 3/4 time so either 9 mo full time or 12 mo at 3/4 time). As a result, every year, I and others have to pick up when she leaves after only 5 months because she needs a job that will cover that remaining three months she is scheduled to be off. Additionally, every time my boss brings her back she has new plans on how to “make it work” and tells everyone how hard she works and how she is the only one who can do her job (news flash: I do 40% of your job when you are here and 100% of it when you are gone).
    Now she has left for a full-time perm job with another office in the same field. But because she is soooo giving, she is still here one day a week to facilitate the customer service portion. She is engaging with the customer base and keeping my boss informed, but my boss is out of the office on acting assignment and has left me in his stead. And she is not keeping ME informed. She answers questions for our customers without letting me know what is going on, making more work for me and confusing our customers when I call them back (because hey, I have a message saying call this person back). My boss just called to tell me that because of inclement weather our event this week that she is supposed to work might be cancelled and was telling me about how “she emailed everyone to let them know…” but I didn’t get the email. She has called EVERY OTHER PERSON in the office today to ask what is going on… EXCEPT me. I know my boss is frustrated with his acting assignment because everyone keeps deferring to him when they should be going to me, but he has left me no direction and he doesn’t ask that anyone keep me informed or redirect anyone to me.
    I am super frustrated because our Golden Turd is making my life 10X more difficult and my boss seems oblivious to this fact. I want to sit down with him next week and explain that if he expects me to be in charge while he is gone, he needs to direct people my way and tell them to keep me informed. If our Golden Turd is gone-but-still-here and I need to communicate with people, I need to know what communication she is having with people. When I have to communicate with our customers about her role, I always loop my boss AND her into our communication where I can. I would at the very least like the same courtesy extended to me. Every time I have approached my boss about what she has not completed when she was asked to, nothing was said to her. Whenever I approached her about what she needed to complete, after being asked multiple times (and being a very big part of her actual job) I have been brought in and talked to for telling her what to do. I am at a loss. When she announced she was finally leaving, and I saw all the things that haven’t been completed that were directly her job, I figured I would let her incompetence speak for itself, but now – when I am in MY busiest season – I find myself being reassigned more and more for her tasks.
    So like I said at the beginning, how do I adjust my attitude in dealing with this, without letting someone who doesn’t even work her anymore run roughshod all over me?

  138. slipjac*

    I need to vent about a coworker. Said coworker doesn’t speak English super well. That would be fine, if she cared about listening to what other people were saying. She also assumes bad intentions, is extremely territorial, and defaults to “no, that’s dumb”. Unfortunately, our roles overlap. Ugh.

    If anyone has had experience addressing conflict with a coworker who doesn’t speak the office language super well, I’d love to hear.

    1. 3 months left @ toxic job!*

      I remember when I was living/working somewhere and didn’t speak the language perfectly, I was exhausted all the time. It’s really draining to be thinking and speaking your second language all day. It sounds like she is frustrating for other reasons, but I’d try to give her a pass on the language thing. Maybe she’s lashing out because she feels insecure.

      1. slipjac*

        Yeah, I’ve also been in that situation, so I feel a ton of sympathy for her. It sucks to never know if you’ve understood everything! I remember craving the ability to be sarcastic.

        What’s frustrating is how it interacts so toxically with the other issues I have with her. And I have no idea how to address it, because she won’t listen closely enough to hear what I’m trying to say.

        Our general pattern seems to be that I will ask her to, say, put a teapot out for me, she will hear “put a teapot out”, and will go to her boss asking if it’s ok for her to put a teapot out where anyone could take it. Then I get a panicked call from her boss asking why I’d ever want to do something so risky. /vent

        One more reason I’m job hunting!

  139. MovingForThe9thTime*

    I know Alison and other commenters have, on occasion, discussed the raw deal that military spouses get where it comes to leaving jobs. Well, that’s my situation right now. I’ve had a rough estimate of the impending move since I’d been in my current job for 2-3 months. It’s a slightly new field for me (it fits into my wheelhouse, it’s just a bit niche) so I’m trying to absorb every experience that I can in the time I have left. I’m trying to gauge my when the best time for starting to job-hunt in the new area would be (one recruiter already told me it was too early to apply) and when would be the best time to give notice. Two weeks seems insufficient for what I do (mid-level professional, non-management, but healthcare/research related), but it’s difficult when I have 7 months notice overall, and 3 months yet to go. Thoughts? No one knows this is happening outside of family and friends. I’ve moved enough times that this should be old hat by now, but many of the jobs were easy to leave as I was still working my way through academia.

    1. KR*

      So I’m in a situation as a military spouse that my manager is a veteran and knows how it goes, so he knows the details of my husbands enlistment/job and how long we are likely to be stationed here. I was upfront with him about the specifics because it was easier than trying to funnel and translate the information into business speak. With this, I would tell them as soon as you know! “As you may know, my husband is in the military. We have just received our orders to go to [Base] located in [place]. We will be moving in three months. Obviously it’s too early to formally give my notice and I want to continue working until (date). My plan is to do x (leave documentation, project summaries, ect) but please let me know if there’s anything I can do to make the transition easier.” Your workplace gets the courtesy and perk of having a ton of time to transition. One thing to keep in mind is if you work for Jerks who will Escort you off Property or Let you go early, so use your best judgement. I would start putting out feelers for new jobs at the month and a half mark but you know your field better than I do. Good luck.

  140. Anony McAnonface*

    I’m applying to a job that’s a bit of a reach for me – I’ve worked as the assistant to the role, and I’ve done some/most of the work involved as the assistant and in another applicable field, but they want 3-5 years in the role. I’ve been through the archives looking for advice on reach jobs, but the most recent advice seems to be “don’t bother in this job market” which is discouraging, to say the least. Anyone got any concrete advice about reach jobs that isn’t “give up”?

    1. fposte*

      I haven’t seen “never reach”–I think the usual advice is go for it if you have 80% of the requested qualifications. The other question is whether there’s anything to lose by the application. Most of the time there isn’t, beyond your own time, so if it’s something you think is plausible and that you’d be a good fit for, why not?

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      There’s nothing to lose by trying! I’ve been applying to a lot of stretch jobs recently and had probably 8 interviews (mostly phone, a couple in person). I haven’t landed a new job yet, but with each interview I learn what experiences they’re looking for, how to present the experiences I do have in the most positive light, and what steps I can take in my current role to be a better candidate for these next roles. You might have a lower rate of response when you’re applying to stretch jobs, but don’t let that get you down!

  141. Ray Gillette*

    So I’ve started to run into a situation where I’m getting mansplained a lot at work – and I’m a man.

    Anyway, I’ve started to notice that when I start sending emails out to remote people to make corrections on their teapot forms because it’s making the automatic teapot order generator fail (which I’m the process expert on – if I’m sending you an email it means there’s an error, I know what it is, and I’m telling you the exact steps on how to fix it). Instead I get a message back – always only from men – explaining my own process back to me and how they know what they’re doing. Occasionally, one of them will send a “thank you ladies” email and include me (my real name isn’t gender neutral).

    Other than it being totally bizarre and frustrating and I guess letting me see what it’s like to have men talk down to what they assume is a woman, I don’t really know if it’s resolvable without me being unpleasant. I don’t have authority and they have a little bit, so if I call them on it and embarrass them, it’s falling back on me.

    1. Sassmaster*

      Dear x,
      This is an automatic email informing you that there is an error in line x. To fix it, these are the steps.

      Please do not reply to this email as it is not monitored. If you need assistance in resolving this issue, please contact …

    2. Reba*

      When and how much is it crossing from annoyance (which it is, seriously) into impacting work?

      Do you all have the same boss?

      1. Ray Gillette*

        It’s impacting work in so much as it takes a couple of extra hours (or even an extra day) to get things fixed when I have to verify that yes, the information I gave you was correct and I do in fact know what I’m talking about.

        Unfortunately, we don’t have the same boss.

        1. Reba*

          Ok, I think you can actually point out this pattern to the remote workers, although the remote part complicates it because you want to have a clear positive and collaborative tone. But you can say something like, “I’ve noticed it’s a pattern that when things like X or Y come up and I send you the corrections, you want to explain yourself (or whatever it is they are doing). But, I really don’t need to know about your process to get there, I’m simply giving you the steps to correct the issue, and they’ve never been wrong! Is there something else going on I should know about? [listen] It really slows us down to go back and forth on it, so if I could ask you to trust me on these matters going forward, that would be great.

          I think you can take that information to your boss, though, too — making sure she knows how much unnecessary back and forth is going on, asking for her guidance on how you can handle them better, and maybe she will be inspired to talk to her counterpart, the remote workers’ bosses about it if it is severe or they don’t get better after a conversation.

  142. Sweet Summer Child*

    I think I realized today that I am really setting myself up at my job to be angry. I can do more than my role requires… I had understood this to be a more robust position… more of an Executive Assistant/Office Manager and it’s actually more of a Secretary/Maid role… I thought I did my due diligence on the way in, there were some flags but I needed a job and I took it regardless…

    it’s now two years later… I get great reviews, they are “amazed” at the work I do and the “volume of work is extraordinary” but it’s all very remedial, I am bored and am always looking for ways to show I can do more… all others in my role do not have the skills I have and are largely ignored/not valued…

    but today a few things happened that have me frustrated… and i think the issue is mine… i keep putting myself out there, asking to do more and work is being given to me but it’s largely grunt work, things others just don’t want to do. But it is THEIR WORK. Something today didn’t work out as planned, it was really that other person’s responsibility and this is a VP… and somehow i was unclear, my email was misunderstood… and now I feel like it looks like i made a mistake when I really shouldn’t have been involved in this particular matter. I felt like the task was being dumped on me but didn’t feel I had the power to speak up.

    Putting aside someone else’s bad behavior, I think I’m setting myself up here. I’m doing doing doing in hopes of them recognizing me and giving me a role more in line with what I thought this was. But they don’t and they won’t and it’s been a few years now, it’s not going to change. I’ve talked to my manager at my review about doing other people’s work, even other department’s work and she says ‘well work goes where work gets done’ so no support there… without doing it consciously i think I keep hoping they will change, and see that i can do so much more but they really don’t care… and I think eventually I’ll just have to leave, they don’t value people that aren’t management on a whole and I need to stop trying to make them value me and my skills. I’m just making myself nuts but i didn’t see that until this morning.

    1. fposte*

      That sounds rough; there are certainly a lot of situations where the reward for doing more work is just being given more work, and people do get mentally slotted sometimes. However, I can’t tell–have you explicitly applied for higher roles? If you haven’t, that would be my big advice to you whether you leave or stay–ask for what you want.

      1. Sweet Summer Child*

        Thanks. People here aren’t generally happy but the benefits are so good that many don’t leave and therefore there aren’t many openings.

        There was one position, someone didn’t return from maternity leave and after meeting with the manager that role reported to, who I already worked with and knew well, she felt I would be perfect for it…. but HR wanted an advanced degree which I do not have… even after she asked about flexibility for an internal candidate… so I feel that there are many signs that show it’s time to look elsewhere. They are very big on degrees for roles here, including mine so I don’t know that I can go much further. Thanks again for the feedback.

    2. Graciosa*

      The fact that you are seeing it now – as upsetting as it is – is a good thing. You can’t change this environment, but you can go somewhere else and change your environment.

      I will add that many, many companies are bad at rewarding good work *alone*. Often, the people who market themselves as good workers (not at all the same thing) or market their work to the right people (also not the same) are the ones who get rewarded. When you choose your next company, think about the environment you’re looking for, what is required to get what you want there, and how to make that happen.

      If you’re trying to move out of any type of role that used to be perceived as “clerical” or “pink collar” it can be even more difficult. It’s not impossible – we have a VP who moved up through the ranks after starting as a secretary – but the culture has to be one that is willing to recognize and reward talent wherever it lies. It doesn’t sound like that’s the case where you are.

      Go where your talents will be recognized and rewarded.

      1. Sweet Summer Child*

        Thank you. I’ve worked in environments that were more or less supportive but perhaps the most important thing was I worked for two different managers that valued me and really expanded the role and the work I do. They knew I could do more and allowed me to go beyond expectations.

        And they also put me forward to others above them. That’s not the case here at all. I’ve actually shared ideas and practices I’ve seen at other companies to have them shared further without giving me credit (not that I was looking for credit but it felt odd to hear ideas out there when they were your own). When I asked someone if they ever mentioned to my manager that that was my idea I was told ‘well I don’t share things we discuss in confidential conversations’. Indeed.

        I usually have to assist with catering and more than once I’ve had others make comments to me about ‘we have you handling sandwiches?!’… I’ll do whatever is needed to get the job done but this just isn’t working anymore. So yes, a place where I’m valued is what I need. Thanks again.

  143. Armchair Analyst*

    Not a question, a complaint.

    Me, to Supervisor: I’m really feeling micro-managed by my Project Manager.
    Supervisor: Yes, I can see why. Why don’t you send everything to me first so that I can review it before you send it to Project Manager?
    Me: …

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Where’s that gif of Nathan Fillion (I think?) looking absolutely speechless and gobsmacked.

    6. Armchair Analyst*

      Thank you all for helping me confirm that *I* am not the crazy one in this situation! :) Sanity checks i.e. “no, not you, definitely THEM” are very helpful and affirming! THANK YOU!

  144. Where's the Le-Toose?*

    Does anyone have any good hints or tips on how to permanently label an office chair?

    I’m a managing attorney at a state office and as a public agency, the office is notoriously cheap on things like office chairs and equipment. I’m going to go buy my own chair, but since I’m in the public sector, coworkers will do things like steal good staplers, office equipment, and chairs, thinking that the office supplied it when really the individual employee bought it. I’ve even had personally bought supplies taken from my office from my direct reports.

    Other than getting a chair with chartreuse colored padding or a Hello Kitty theme, is there a good way to permanently label my chair?

    1. Anony McAnonface*

      Do you have a label-maker in the office? Some mailrooms will have them. You could tag the back of the chair on the non-cushion part, or on one of the arms.

    2. fposte*

      There are flags in advance, like the chartreuse padding; there is also the evidence after the fact, like your name etched into the metal under the seat. Do both.

      If you can only get a plain black chair, try pulling a t-shirt over the back. It should identify it without interfering with your sitting.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Are you trying to prevent it from being “accidentally” stolen by someone who assumes it’s state property, or to prove it’s yours and recover it if/when someone takes it?

      If it’s #1, get a fluorescent paint marker and put “property of WTLT” in a few prominent places. Roll it into the office on a workday rather than in the evening or on a weekend, so there’s more visibility about it being Your Chair.

      If it’s #2, do the same thing, but also write it in a less conspicuous spot, like the underside of the arm or base, so that someone who covers/scrapes off your work from #1 might miss it.

      And chartreuse might not be a bad idea. ;-)

    4. CatCat*

      It would be pretty ballsy for someone to come into your office and steal your chair regardless of who supplied it (!!) If it’s not a distinctive chair and is just a basic black office chair, write underneath it using a metallic or other visible color Sharpie. You could also put colored zip ties on the arms so the chair is easily spotted if it goes missing.

        1. Short & Dumpy*

          They also sell paint pens that are permanent. I actually use them for marking things as Govt Property and they seem to last FOREVER.

          Alternately, I’ve basically melted it into plastic by using a soldering pen.

    5. UK Civil Servant*

      People in my public sector, open-plan, hot-desking office know not to mess with my chair, because I can and will (and have) HULK OUT if it has been messed with.
      I have a chronic back problem and my chair is very precisely adjusted so I will not be in screaming agony by the end of a working day. It is clearly labelled – as are all our specially provided chairs – so it shouldn’t be an issue, but sometimes…
      Despite being a tiny woman, apparently I am terrifying when I’m angry.

    6. Jerry Vandesic*

      I don’t recommend this approach, but I had a co-worker who dealt with this problem. He had a special ergonomic chair (marked with his name underneath), but often had his chair “borrowed.” He would retrieve it, but after doing this multiple times he was pretty annoyed. At one point, I think he finally snapped. He would retrieve his chair, replace it with another, and then tip over an open bottle of maple syrup on the offender’s desk. I don’t know where he got the syrup, but it created a real mess. Happened several times. No one ever proved it was him, but eventually the chair stopped being borrowed.

      I sort of missed having this happen, as the office smelled nice after each incident.

      1. Eye of Sauron*

        The maple syrup thing is so random… well unless you all worked at the pancake house, but I’m not sure I can imagine the office chair in that place.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          It was a tech startup. We had a small kitchen, but there didn’t seem to be anyone preparing pancakes or other maple syrupy things. The syrup seemed like it came out of left field. I thought it was strange, in a quirky sort of way, but then I never had syrup spilled on my desk.

    7. Julianne*

      My vote’s for Hello Kitty. My dad used to borrow my laptop sleeves regularly when he lost his (I have no good explanation for why he consistently lost this particular item, but indeed he did), and he was no better at not losing mine than his own. I bought a pink one with a rhinestone zipper pull, and wouldn’t you know, he never borrowed that one even once.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Or just something pink. In several offices I’ve worked in the front desk had a pink tool kit and everyone always returned the pink-handled tools (screw drivers, pliars, hammers). If you don’t buy a pink chair, then maybe a pink slip cover.

    8. ..Kat..*

      Put your name on it prominently (and permanently), but also hide a locator device on it (like Tile) so you can find it.

  145. Relieved Reader*

    I am not currently in a bad work situation but my department at my old job is not having a fun time right now.

    I moved out of state about a month and a half ago and because of that, I had to leave my last job. I worked in a call center on a small team of about 5 people when it was fully staffed. We had some turnover that resulted in positions not being filled for a month or more. All 5 positions were filled for about 3 months and then our new hire left in December. Our supervisor didn’t hire anyone to fill her position after she left, and then I put my two weeks notice in at the beginning of February. My supervisor was looking at potential internal candidates but didn’t have anyone lined up by the time I left. I reached out to another one of my coworkers and apparently another person left. Leaving my department with only two people to answer phones, process orders, mail orders out, and complete all the other tasks that we are assigned. It sounds like a nightmare and I am so glad I’m not there right now, but I do feel awful for the two people that are left. They don’t deserve that amount of stress.

  146. 2horseygirls*

    I know there was a post about an employee who attended meetings he was not invited to, and how to address it, but I cannot find it and I want to link to it – can anyone find the link for me? I have tried searching meeting, but it is a popular topic! Thanks! :)

    PS – Happy Friday, all!

  147. HRH The Duke of Coriander and Gomasio*

    Had a 3rd interview with a company on Monday… I am excited!

  148. Blue Anne*

    I’m in my last tax season. I already gave my notice, like a month ago. I’m leaving because this profession makes my depression and anxiety much worse, but I’m doing “the professional thing” and staying until the end of tax season.

    I’m really struggling. I’m here for the long hours that are expected but I can’t focus. I can’t even type straight. I’m making mistakes and not picking up on things, and it gets worse as the season goes on and I don’t have time to decompress, can’t sleep from stress, am eating crappy fast food, am not always able to drag myself out of bed with time to shower… and so on.

    We have Sundays off but I’ve just been told that we need to be in on the last Sunday before the deadline. So I have one more day off, and then I need to somehow work for 9 days straight, pulling 10-14 hours every day, and try not to kill myself. Like, actually try not to kill myself.

    A friend gave me 10mg of his adderall, which I’m trying out tomorrow. I don’t know what else to do.

      3. Natalie*

        Outside of being sedated, meds don’t really work on an emergency basis. It can take a while to find the right one, and they often have side effects like fatigue when you first start taking them.

    2. CM*

      Don’t do the professional thing if you’re literally trying not to kill yourself. You already gave notice; can you just leave? If that’s not an option, you’re already out the door — tell them you will not be in on Sunday. If necessary call in sick. What are they going to do, fire you?

      1. CM*

        I wonder if your depression and anxiety are contributing to this feeling that you’re trapped and the job is more important than your mental health? Outside perspective: It’s not. You can say to your supervisor, “I’m sorry, I had planned to stay until the end of tax season, and I realize this puts you in a difficult position, but I am struggling with my health and I need to leave effective today.” (Pack up your desk first.) And like I said, if that’s not an option for financial reasons, please do limit your hours. Take care of yourself. Your well-being is more important than taxes.

        1. Thursday Next*

          + 1 seconding both of CM’s comments here. Repeating because it’s important: your health is much, much more important than any professional duty. Full stop. Please make self care your priority, by exiting early if that’s financially possible, or cutting back hours if it’s not. CM’s script is excellent.

          Depression and anxiety impose such horrible filters through which we perceive our situations—and our options. Please put yourself first right now.

          Wishing you all the best.

        2. well_hi_there*

          Hang in there, that sounds wretched but you can get through. Yes to CM’s comments! I have been in a similar position, trying to get out of a very stressful career while managing depression and anxiety, and the brain chemicals warp your whole perspective. Which would be worse, taking a day off work (even if it means Critical Stuff Doesn’t Get Done) or literally dying? Take it from the version of me who’s now on the right meds: letting deadlines drop is the way way better option. Oh, and step outside and take a walk in the sun, for like 10 minutes even. It feels nice.

        3. Blue Anne*

          >I wonder if your depression and anxiety are contributing to this feeling that you’re trapped and the job is more important than your mental health

          Probably. I’m also under a lot of pressure from my mom and grandma to finish the season. They’re very concerned with my career.

          I just don’t know what to do. I don’t think I can face leaving, but I also can’t focus. I’m basically staring at my computer waiting for a boss to yell at me.

          1. Natalie*

            Yeah, well, my mom wanted me to be some kind of globetrotting activist superhero, and my grandma probably wanted me to crap out 10 kids like a good Catholic. They don’t always know what’s right just because they’re older.

            Given what you’ve posted below, if there is a good hospital near you, would you be comfortable checking yourself in for evaluation, med stabilization, and so on? Mentally/emotionally “I am in the hospital” is harder to argue with than “it’s suicide or quitting this job”.

            1. Thursday Next*

              Blue Anne, this might be something to consider. That way you’d be out of a toxic environment *and* getting some help.

          2. Boredatwork*

            I quit my first tax job late august – we had just started mandatory sat/sun and guess what hasn’t hurt me one bit! Scale back. Leave at 5, you don’t want to start your new job with this BAGGAGE.

    3. Natalie*

      Same field so I’m aware of how big of a deal it is to quit during tax season. But if you’re leaving the field, and it sounds like you wouldn’t be coming back, who cares? It doesn’t matter if they trash you to every tax firm in town if you aren’t doing taxes anymore.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Yeah. That makes a lot of sense and I’m trying to convince myself of it. My family really cares, though, and my firm is also very connected around town. Chamber of commerce and all that.

        Thank you, it’s validating to have someone else point this out.

    4. KAZ2Y5*

      Please don’t take the Adderall! It is so very illegal for your friend to give that to you. Also, it is totally not worth it if you hurt yourself due to some side-effect/reaction to this med.
      You just have 1 1/2 weeks left. You can do this! Please just do it safely!

      1. Blue Anne*

        Please don’t tell me I *just* have 1 1/2 weeks left, that’s so incredibly unhelpful when I’m genuinely trying to decide whether I’d rather die.

        1. Annonn*

          I know it’s scary to potentially disappoint your family but if you are on the brink of suicide you need to quit as soon as you can. You can tell your boss you have an emergency health issue, because you do have an emergency mental health issue and you need to put yourself first. 1-800-273-8255 call if you need to talk to someone

        2. Recently Diagnosed*

          Quit, quit, quit, quit, quit. Your family may care a LOT about your career, but I promise they care more about your life. So many people struggle to understand how damaging mental illness can be before it’s too late. You’re worth doing what you need to do to survive. Quit. When the choice comes down to whether or not you’d like to die, do what you have to do in order to stack the cards towards survival. Almost lost my husband three times to depression. People who struggle with so much pain and somehow still manage to get up in the morning are absolute warriors. I know you don’t feel like a warrior. I know it can feel like you are so weak, but I can see you, even by coming here, fighting, looking for a weapon, any stick on the ground with which to fight. If it’s this sever, pick up the quitting stick, then go to a psychiatrist/therapist. If money is an issue, look up affordable option and sliding-scale therapy. If you can’t do any of that, still quit. Because if that gives you even just a little more time to focus on healing, then it’ll be worth it.

    5. Recently Diagnosed*

      Be super careful with the adderall. The downswing the next day can seriously aggravate your already rough depression and anxiety. Blue Anne, you are so much more important than a job. Don’t injure your mental health any further. My hubby is a suicide survivor, and on the other side of some very serious manic depression issues. You and I have never met, but a stranger on the internet thinks that you are FAR more important than your 9-5. Or 8-8.

    6. CM*

      Blue Anne, one more thing because I’m really concerned about you. What would you tell your best friend who said to you, “I’m trying to decide whether I should kill myself or put in another 1.5 weeks of work at a job that I hate?”

      Your depression is telling you that this is a logical choice to make, but it’s really, really not. Once your perspective is restored, you will see this. But for now please listen to us Internet people, or if you won’t listen to us please call the hotline.

      People being mad at you will pass. All of this stuff will pass, and you will be much better off. Please just let it go. Quit as soon as you can. Quit today and walk away if you can. And see if you can talk to a friend or someone you trust about this.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Thanks CM. I really appreciate your input here. I’ve struggled with mental health for a long time (although it’s rarely this bad) and you’re echoing the same kinds of things I’ve heard from therapists I really trust.

        Unfortunately, the only time I tried a suicide hotline was after being kicked out of Scotland, where I lived 18-27 and expected to spend the rest of my life. After a 40 minute wait to talk to someone, the person on the line said “Why would you even want to live in a country that doesn’t want you when you can live in America?” and I haven’t seen them as a valid resource since.

        I’m going to try to work up the nerve to tell my boss I’m not coming in on Sunday before I leave today, at least. Got a few more hours to do it.

    7. Blue Anne*

      I’m really embarrassed about even posting about this here. Alison, please delete if you don’t think it’s appropriate.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        There’s nothing to be embarrassed about. You’re hurting and needed help. So you reached out. That’s not embarrassing at all. That’s amazing.

        If you aren’t familiar with Boggle the Owl, google him. Especially the one about passing out sticks.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I will delete it if you want me to, but there’s nothing inappropriate about it and nothing to be embarrassed about! I don’t know if it will help or not, but I am someone who normally comes down on the side of “just stick it out for two weeks” and even I think you should walk off the job today and never return if that’s what you need to do for your own health and safety. If you can’t bring yourself to talk to your boss before you leave today, you can send an email from home later. Or not even. Hell, you could walk off the job and go totally AWOL if that’s what you need to do. When the stakes are this high, all the choices are better than ending your life. You do not have sacrifice yourself because other people have expectations of you. (And I promise you, those expectations would melt away if they understood how dire the situation is for you right now.)

        Please check back in with us next week or even this weekend?

        1. Blue Anne*

          You guys are making me cry. (I mean, I’m obviously predisposed towards it right now, but still.)

          Thank you. I will try to check in.

          1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

            I know I’m random internet person, but if you need someone to talk to…even to send an email at 2 in the morning because you’re drowning, let me know.

            I’m not a therapist, but I’m happy to listen.

          2. Wren*

            I posted a link in my username that helped me a lot when I was in a similar headspace a year ago.

            Killing yourself doesn’t make this better for anyone, even you. It just means that it will never have a chance to get better. Your family would rather have you damage your career than have you dead.

          3. CM*

            Blue Anne, can you check back in and let us know how you’re doing? I hope you got some rest over the weekend.

            1. Blue Anne*

              I’m still here. I rested as much as possible. Went home early Saturday and didn’t answer any calls Sunday, did some knitting and gaming, self care stuff. I actually texted my mom saying that my mental health had taken a big dive and I didn’t think I should finish the season, and she was supportive, which blew my mind.

              I’m at work right now. I’m planning to spend today to wrap up as much stuff as I can and then leave. Still trying to work up the courage to go tell my boss that. Feel like I should do it earlier in the day, not least so I don’t wuss out and stay.

              Thank you guys.

              1. CM*

                I am so glad to hear all of that, and I’m proud of you for taking care of yourself over the weekend! Best of luck talking to your boss… it’s going to be okay, you got this! Once you walk out the door just take a deep breath and put it behind you.

    8. dawbs*

      You don’t know me from Adam, but 13 or so years ago, this could have been my husband’s post–except not about accounting. He had a business he had built and he was the sole employee and he walked off in the middle of a work day, I helped him check into the hospital because of fear of self harm, and he no-call, no-showed on clients for several days, and I took steps to close the business (a friend kindly called clients for me to cancel plans and I started selling off equipment)
      And some parts of that were hard for us to pick up the pieces for–finding a new job (and, yes, there were people upset that he left ‘without notice’–there were also people who were able to say ‘he was awesome for years, I’d love to be a reference’). There were moments of ‘OMG, what am I going to do, I just walked away from a job’, but, honestly, I’ve had that walking away w/ notice and another job lined up.
      It was still one of the best decisions we made for him and his current job is a far better choice for him.

      Do what you need to do. There will be toher jobs. there will be other tax seasons. Your office has a plan for what to do when an accountant gets hit by a truck, it’s just that this time the truck is mental health and the well being of your soul, andyou’re diving out of the way.

    9. Belle di Vedremo*

      I’m so sorry things are so hard right now.

      I hope you’ve called in sick today, and are getting some in-person care. If not, can you pack yourself up and leave now? You have a bunch of internet strangers who care about your wellbeing here, and we want to know how you’re doing.

      Nothing about your current job is, or could be, anywhere near as important as you are. You have our blessing to walk away from this one right now. Please take care of you, first and foremost.

      Internet hugs if you’d like them.

      1. Belle di Vedremo*

        Wanted to follow up in case you’re checking back to this conversation, to say that I was so focused on your getting out of the current situation that what I didn’t say is that *no* job is worth it. Ever.

        And remember that depression is a liar.

  149. Environmental Gone Public Health Gone Back Environmental*

    Really settling into the new job – really enjoying it so far!

    Hilariously enough…one of the engineers (just a couple years younger than me, though admittedly I look very young) tried to sit me down and have a serious discussion about how some people here (it’s a manufacturing facility) have *gasp* tattoos and beards Oh My! but they’re very, very nice people. I was like……yes? I assumed that they were just like non-bearded non-tattooed people? LOL

  150. Anon here hi*

    I’m at my new job and I talk to a few people, but other people never initiate contact. This is fine, but I feel like I’m doing something wrong. I’m trying to be social and friendly, but I don’t think it works because it doesn’t help anything. Other people have loads of people coming up to them and I don’t.

    Any thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      It can be rough feeling lonely in a new job! But are the other people getting approached employees who were there longer? That would make a big difference in who approaches them. It’s also true that sometimes some personalities click in a culture more than others, so I’d say keep doing what you’re doing, watch to see what other ways people may be forging relationships, and be patient.

  151. Trillion*

    How long does everyone typically wait to ask for their first day off in a new job? I started a job this week (and benefits are effective day 1), and I really would like to do a doctor’s visit to refill my meds and hopefully a dentist appointment to get a cleaning.

    I’ve heard typically you should wait three months before taking a planned day off.

    1. Blue Anne*

      I think it’s a little different for medical stuff. You need to do that when you need to do it.

      1. CM*

        But this is stuff that could have been taken care of before and doesn’t seem time-sensitive. I’d wait at least a month, unless you absolutely need an office visit to get a refill on your meds. Even then, I’d try to schedule that to disrupt your schedule as little as possible, rather than taking a full day off.

        1. WellRed*

          I had a dentist appt or some such the first week I started. I left and went back after. I suppose in some offices they’d not like it, but I wouldn’t want to work there.

        2. Trillion*

          One of the reasons I quit my previous place is because I never could get the time off to do these things. So, no, I couldn’t “take care of them before.” Also, some of this stuff is on a very specific timing. For instance, my doctor needs to take my blood after a certain amount of time on my meds before she’ll authorize a refill to see how the new meds are treating my body.

          1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

            I think 3 months is a good rule of thumb, but if it’s something where you’re going to run out of meds, by all means, schedule an appointment. If you can do early in the day or late in the day, I think that looks better that you’re making an effort not to be too disruptive to your workday.

    2. Natalie*

      I think one day or a couple of half days for medical appointments is not a bit deal. Maybe you could just ask your boss about the least disruptive time to schedule them?

      I had to accompany my spouse to an appointment during my first few weeks on the job – it couldn’t be put off because it was surgery related. I asked about timing and then we got the last appointment of the day, so I was only leaving 30 minutes early.

      1. CM*

        I like this suggestion, and from the followup it sounds like what I said before was wrong and that these things are time-sensitive.

  152. PetticoatsandPincushions*

    I’m about to become a trailing spouse, and I need any advice and commiseration I can get!

    My husband is starting his residency and we are moving to a new city this summer. This city was his first choice, and it’s a nice place, but I’m worried about finding a job.

    I’ve made a pretty good career for myself so far in a very niche industry within the museum world, and those jobs in our new city are far and few between, unless you are a volunteer.

    Although I don’t mind changing industries or even just departments (from admin from development or something like that), I have no idea how to structure my resume so that places will be interested. I’ve had a lot of jobs that align very closely with my career path so far, but I’m feeling like right now they all look way too specific. I don’t have any qualms about addressing this in my cover letter but still feel like I’ve boxed myself in a little.

    Any advice from people who have altered career paths from necessity like this? Happy to be more specific if it helps!!

    1. Alex*

      I’m in the same position currently. I just found out that I didn’t get chosen for a job (in the new area). That was the only opening I’ve seen. I know there are several volunteer options for where we’ll be moving that could potentially turn into a job, but I am kind of looking forward to doing something different. I’ve come to the realization that office work is not really a good fit for my personality.

      1. PetticoatsandPincushions*

        Yeah I’m thinking this might be a good time to explore other career options but I’m worried no one is going to look at my extensive Dragon Costuming career and think oh wow, she would be a great hotel manager, even though a lot of the skill sets I’ve acquired could actually really help me in a new field.

  153. Equality Quandry*

    I think my company might have sexist hiring practices, and I’m wondering if there’s anything I can or should do about it. The other day the head of one of our departments saw me carrying something and insiste on taking it from me. He basically said that he knows it’s outdated thinking, but he didn’t think women should carry heavy things. It did not bother me at the time, I chalked it up to misplaced ideas of chivaly and thought that was the end of it. But the encounter has been nagging at me and I realize now that’s it’s because I’ve never seen a woman in his department. His department does require a lot of physical labor so it’s possible women aren’t interested, but I’m concerned that he’s carrying his outdated ideas of woman as delicate into his hiring decisions. It’s hard to say where we fall in the hierarchy since our rolls are so different. He’s been at the company longer but we have similar levels of responsibility. My boss is an owner and we have a good report so I suppose I could say something to him. I’m just not sure if it’s my place to say anything or what I should say. For the record I feel very well treated, we have women in other departments, and I know we offer good benefits regarding maternity leave. If there is an issue with hiring I think they would want to know.

    1. Kathleen_A*

      Helping you carry something certainly doesn’t necessarily connote sexism – I mean, if he’s stronger than you and the thing you were carrying had some weight to, I’d say it would be pretty rude *not* to help. I’d even say that his comment about how women shouldn’t carry heavy things doesn’t necessarily connote sexism, either – nor do other routine polite gestures, at least in my opinion.

      But of course, sometimes those gestures do definitely connote sexism. It all comes down to intent, so there’s no real way to tell from the outside. As to whether you should say something to the owner, my vote would be “no” unless and until you have something more to go on than this. I’m interested to see what others have to say, though.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        How is it a routine polite gesture to say that you don’t think women can carry things?

        1. Kathleen_A*

          The OP didn’t say that he said “I don’t think women can carry things.” She said he thinks they shouldn’t have to. Not the same thing at all, at least not IMO.

          1. CM*

            But the OP goes on to say that this person is in charge of hiring people to carry heavy things, and there are no women in his department, and maybe this isn’t a coincidence since he says unprompted that he doesn’t think women should carry heavy things.

            That said, whether to address this is a tough question and I think it depends how your boss would take it. Is your boss generally open to discussing things like this? Is there any opportunity to bring it up in the moment, like if a job opening comes up in that department, then you could say that you want to make sure your company is considering men and women equally? (And maybe propose possible solutions, like hiring by committee or having names removed from resumes for screening purposes)

            1. Kathleen_A*

              You’re right – it might very well *not* be a coincidence. It’s so hard to say from the outside.

          2. Reba*

            Yeah, it’s really not about the finer points of the language, but that this seemingly innocuous little exchange has switched on a light bulb about actual, observable actions in the dude’s department.

          3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            Given that he said this in the context of taking heavy things away from a woman, and he’s in charge of hiring people in what SHOULD be a non-discriminatory manner to carry heavy things, I think it’s a distinction without a difference.

          4. Delphine*

            What’s the difference, though? Whether he believes women cannot or women should not, he’s making some pretty odd assumptions about women based on gender.

      2. neverjaunty*

        “Women shouldn’t carry heavy things” is flat out sexist. And the fact that he insisted on carrying something heavy for her rather than just offering takes it out of the realm of polite social gestures.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      If you’ve got a good rapport with your boss, I think you could absolutely raise it. I’d be fairly diffident in how I approached it, and take a tack of “Hey, I don’t know if this means anything, but something happened with DepartmentHead the other day, and I wanted to get your take on it. [Relate incident rather the way you did here.] Obviously I’m not privy to the hiring decisions over there, but comments like that plus that department’s responsibilities has an iffy implication. As a company, we want to make sure that we’re not creating an appearance of discrimination by having a department head say he thinks women aren’t capable of the responsibilities of his team.”

      The way you presented it in your comment here is really good, and I’d take a similar tone with your boss. The situation was X, dude said Y and did Z, and you’ve noticed A and B about his department. It might be worth looking into, because C.

    3. Lindsay J*

      I would flag it to your boss.

      I’ve experienced this a lot. I’ve even gone to interviews for positions like shelf stocking and had them try to push me into roles like cashiering instead because they assume I could not or would not want to lift things (when, hello, I’m applying for a job where lifting things is part of it, I know what it entails.)

      I’ve also had to train my direct reports that yes, I am a woman, but unless I ask you to help me to lift something I don’t need help. And yes, I can drive the forklift. Honestly the stupid thing is smaller than my tiny ass car, why wouldn’t I be able to operate it?

      And this generally comes from guys who are nice, well-intentioned, not generally sexist, etc. They probably don’t feel discriminatory for not thinking women should carry or lift heavy things – they probably just feel like they’re being nice or “hiring the best candidate” or whatever.

      But as someone who has almost definitely missed out on jobs because people didn’t think that she could or should carry heavy things, I think bringing it to their (and other people’s attention) and letting people like me get hired for those jobs more easily is better than just preserving their feelings by saying nothing.

      And getting ahead of the issue now before there is a lawsuit or the threat of one is better than waiting until something bad happens. If it’s really the case that no woman has ever applied to his department, that will probably be easy to see based off of the records from past application cycles (and worth looking into anyway as a company to see if there is a reason why women aren’t applying for those roles at your company). I’ve worked quite a few places where I’ve been one of only a few women, and yeah, a lot of women don’t apply for warehouse and other similar positions. But that doesn’t mean that none ever do.

  154. WorkingOnIt*

    I’m having a wonderful time vicariously through Glass Door at the moment. My old company is getting decimated on the site, it’s satisfying and makes me feel (somewhat) better about leaving the company – although I’m back to the job-hunt. It at least makes feel that I wasn’t making it up and it wasn’t me. Company now has someone responding to all these comments – when the comments are actually dreadful – like really awful – feel like it would be better to not answer than have a pat ‘please talk to us, we value your opinion’ comment. Think you need to do way more like actuall tackle management! But bless glass door .

    1. Lily Rowan*

      I have had the same petty satisfaction with a former job. Especially the responses! Good times.

      1. WorkingOnIt*

        It is majorly satisfying, especially as the comments keep racking up and I’m pretty sure they keep losing good people…

  155. strawberries and raspberries*

    Question for anyone who’s worked in a public/city hospital: when new positions are posted in specialized departments, is it safe to assume that these are going to be permanent positions, or is it more likely that they’re grant-funded? And how can I ask this on the interview without sounding tacky?

    1. BlueBloodMoon*

      In my experience, positions are posted with designation e.g., permanent, temporary “not to exceed”, intermittent etc. But unless you are on a specific project (eg a public health initiative, research study), a specialty or sub specialty position is likely permanent (eg rheumatology). But you can ask how a position is funded, what the funding cycle is, and what would occur if the funding was lost. That’s not tacky at all – *but* it might seem a little odd if you are applying for a position related to clinical care.

      I would first review the listing carefully. All of ours are required to include explicit language about permanent v. temporary – usually right after the full/part time line. Then I would ask HR versus during the interview. In my experience, medical professionals sometimes don’t really know the ins and outs of HR, and if you are applying to public/governmental hospitals, there is likely to be explicit rules about all of this and HR is the place to ask. If you do ask during the interview, I would confirm with HR – and if you are worried at all, ask for it in writing eventually.

  156. A big plate*

    I have been having a debate with myself for the last 6 months that I would love some perspective on. When is it ‘worth it’ to stay in a toxic workplace if you love the work and there is reason to believe that the future in that workplace might be better? I guess only I can answer that question, but, as I said, I would like to hear some words of wisdom.

    Quick background: I left a job I’d been in for ten years recently which was a great place to work but where I was not engaged in the work itself for a “dream job”. I have been here for 18 months. The work is extremely specialized (technical work in an international organization, which I am not able to do easily anywhere else) and I love it. I am finally doing the work I studied to do and I am passionate about. But the organization itself has slowly revealed itself to be extremely dysfunctional. I won’t bother going into detail, which I’m sure you can imagine — lack of communication; weird decisions made with no explanation; terrible management at all levels (managers who are subject matter experts but have no interest/experience in people management), rampant gossip, hostility and badmouthing etc etc. Sometimes I can work in my bubble without letting the dysfunction get to me, but lately I’ve been put in a position where the terrible management practices/workplace jealousy and gossip/loony personalities allowed to run amok have really gotten to me.

    My direct boss is terrible but on the verge of retirement and upper management tends to change quite frequently here. Do I stick it out because I am finally working on something I love after many long years of being disengaged in my work? Or do I give it up for a saner place? I am so disappointed that working in my chosen field has led to this crazy place!

    1. fposte*

      1. It doesn’t hurt to window shop and 2. if you’re staying, give yourself a calendar deadline: “If boss hasn’t retired in a year, I will actively job search; I will give no more than one year for the necessary changes to happen under the new boss.” You want to have a plan, not an interminable dangle.

      1. Graciosa*

        I strongly agree with having a concrete deadline rather than ongoing amorphous “hope.”

        I’m not terribly optimistic that a new boss will be a panacea. It sounds like the disfunction is pervasive and widespread. I’m not convinced the new boss selected by the ever-changing leaders in this organization will be significantly different.

        Assuming (optimistically) that the new boss is actually very good, he or she will have a limited impact in that kind of culture – and probably a limited willingness to hang around in that environment.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I’m with you (and hi, Graciosa! I feel like I haven’t seen you in a while). I think retirement has a really long verge, and dysfunctional organizations take a long time to hire and don’t hire well.

    2. GD*

      FWIW, I *LOVE* the work that I am doing in my current role. It’s meaningful to me personally and I love a lot of my coworkers. That having been said, upper management changes over frequently and my direct supervisor is really difficult to work with (all the reasons you also listed). After five years… I can’t separate the emotional difficulty I’m having at work with the work anymore and have started job searching. But for a few years, I did still get a lot out of the job, so I’d say to just be really mindful of your own mental health and figure out what your “bright red line” is. Mine was raises– I’ve taken on significant additional responsibilities recently without a title change/raise so it’s making my decision to job search easier.

    3. LawBee*

      Do as the Captain suggests (via a commenter on her site whose name I have forgotten). If absolutely nothing changes, how will you feel about this job in five years? In ten? If you think you could handle another five years of your terrible direct boss and the other problems because your love for what you do is strong enough, then I’d say stick it out.

      But also keep those options open. It’s a job, not a marriage, and it doesn’t hurt anyone to look around.

    4. A big plate*

      Thank you everybody for the thoughts and suggestions. Setting a deadline sounds like a great idea.

    5. London Girl*

      I’m in a very similar position. On top of all that you memtioned, I was also bullied. I won’t go into amy detail as it’s still very difficult flr me to talk about. It’s only now I’ve started to realise i need to get out of this place. I’m actively searching and putting in applications. I’m waiting to hear about any possible interviews.

      I think i went through alot of denial before i realised that my office is not normal.

      It’s hard to make these sort of decision but your health is important too. I learnt the hard way.

      Get out as soon as you can.

  157. Teacher's Partner*

    I wanted to provide a little update to a question I posted in an open thread – ehh probably about a month or two ago. Context: SO and I have a vacation planned for the end of the year and we’ve been stuck in perpetual winter so the end of school has been pushed back 2 weeks into when we are gone.

    SO talked with the assistant principal and superintendent. It is confirmed that the days can be taken unpaid. And it’s a lesson learned to plan the next summer vacation firmly in July (which is the hard stop for school days).

    No need for shady sick leave or anything like that. We still don’t know exactly what the union rep was thinking. And it’s a good thing SO talked with assistant principal and superintendent, because they found out about a week ago that the principal got fired/let go. So even though SO is seemingly beloved, it is better to not take a chance that someone could have some bad blood.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, I’m really glad to hear that; I was pretty concerned about the union rep’s suggestion, and this way you guys get to take your vacation and not lie to anybody.

  158. JobSearcher*

    Any tips on figuring out the general culture of a company/office when interviewing for a relatively entry level job? I’m worried How do I avoid coming off as being concerned about the “wrong things?” Or will most managers/recruiters understand the questions and I’m just overthinking?

  159. GD*

    How should I handle applying for a job where I’ve worked for the director previously? Never had this come up before!

    There’s a job posting up that sounds like a perfect next step for me, and lucky for me I have worked for the director before in a different organization and she’s an amazing woman. It was about 8 years ago now when I was still in college, I interned in her department and she was my supervisor. She gave me a glowing reference that helped me secure my first post-grad job– like, my employer told me how complimentary she was after I was hired. We’re friends on facebook and while we’re not in regular contact, we do comment on various thought-provoking things the other will post a few times a year.

    A couple questions bearing that in mind:
    – Should I reach out to her via Messenger and let her know I will be applying? My instinct is not to do this since I don’t think it’d add any value to my application.
    – Should I acknowledge in my cover letter that we have worked together in the past? The internship I held is relevant to this position in that they are both arts organization so I plan to include it on my resume and mention it in passing in my cover letter. I’m just not sure if saying “I enjoyed working for you at X organization and would love to have you as a boss again” is improper somehow!
    ^ If I *do* acknowledge, is it best to just get that out of the way in the first paragraph?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      You need to acknowledge it somehow. It would seem super weird if you didn’t. I would reach out and let her know you’re applying.

      I would also make sure you mention the internship in the cover letter.

      1. GD*

        Thank you! It’s probably evident reading my post but I feel terribly awkward in networking settings so it just feels really odd to address someone so directly and personally in a cover letter– but I do know her and know how kind she is!

      2. Not a Real Giraffe*

        +1 to all this. I would address it in the first line or so of the cover letter. Something along the lines of “we worked together during my internship at Llama International and I was thrilled to see you were hiring for a Teapot Coordinator at Teapots Inc.” and then maybe send a message on LinkedIn (if you are connected) reiterating the same message.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think it would be good for you to message her and let her know you’re applying.

      I would refrain from “name dropping” her in your cover letter though. Depending on who is screening the resumes, it might rub them the wrong way.

      1. GD*

        Yeah, that is the kind of tricky thing here– I am fairly certain she will be the one reviewing resumes (she’s the director of the department I’m applying to but not the entire organization). But they do have dedicated office managers that might do pre-screening and I want to avoid looking like I’m expecting the position because I have a previous relationship to her.

    3. Snark*

      It would be super weird if you didn’t mention and acknowledge it, and I think the cover letter is the place to do it. And I wouldn’t mention it in passing! I’d make your positive experience with the employer and director a major plank. I’d make it all about your positive experience working there, not so personal/relational as “I’d love to have you as a boss again.”

      1. GD*

        Ah! Thank you for the framing! That feels like a more professional angle. Reading your comment and thinking about it a little bit more, I do think it would make sense to talk more about the internship than I normally would (considering it was 8 years ago) since I want to express a desire to work directly in the arts again.

  160. Anonym*

    I was being bullied by a coworker and I finally told my manager about it. She told me I wasn’t the first person to be bullied by coworker and that she would address the matter. The next day boss, grand boss and great-grand boss (!!!) called her in for a meeting where people could hear her screaming and crying. She quit on the spot with no notice in the middle of the meeting. It wasn’t even lunch yet. She left a case half-done on her desk.

    My boss later told me it was for the best and I was in no way in trouble, but it was still a very stressful week. I am really happy that I have a manager who has my back and that my office bully is gone. But work is kind of awkward right now. There are a lot of rumors flying around and I’m just trying to pretend I don’t know anything about anything. The worst part is, bully coworker was a charming rockstar and lots of people were really upset that she quit.

    1. Snark*

      Yeah, I’d just put “Hmm, I haven’t heard any of the particulars, but maybe Boss can fill you in,” and a blank look on repeat. I’m so glad your bosses have your back.

        1. Snark*

          It has the advantage of being true. “I really don’t know what went down, but yikes, dramatic exit, eh?

    2. Menacia*

      The “right” people know the real reason. And I don’t care how great someone is at their job, that does not give them the right to bully others.

    3. anonmidwest*

      Hard to believe that you were the only one she bullied, even if she could put on a charming face to other people.

      1. Anonym*

        There were definitely other incidents before me, although I’m not sure what the specifics were. She had been cold and overly critical towards me and two of my coworkers for a while, though I definitely was getting the worst of it. Things really crossed the line when she changed my name to hers on some documents I had filled out. It was really petty too, just an audit of supplies for our department.

        Most of the people who liked her didn’t work with her directly.

    4. LouiseM*

      Ugh, so sorry. I’ve unfortunately dealt with the same types myself (just posed yesterday about my former bullying coworker, who was also a master gaslighter). It’s such a bummer that sometimes these extremely noxious people are ALSO well-liked (by some) and you take the blame for bringing down this well-liked person. My coworker was similar in that he was extremely rude to a a few people, but also kissed a lot of people’s as*es (especially the boss, he fawned over her) and his fans thought he was sooooo witty and a “straight shooter.” Never mind that he was so unpleasant to be around for so many of us. Anyway, all I have to say is that it WILL get better and you will be so happy she is gone. Your life has just improved so much even though right now there are some growing pains. Good luck!

  161. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    Are there weird tax things or other restrictions I should be aware of when requesting to work remotely from another state?
    I currently live/work in California for a company with many locations nationwide, but none in Oregon, where I may be moving due to my partner’s school. I’m planning to ask if I can go 100% (or close to 100%) remote and keep my job but move to Oregon. I would like to offer to fly back to CA once a month for in-person meetings and touching base. I’d be happy to cover some of the costs of this travel, but I’m not sure that’s legal to do for a company HQ’d in CA. I already work from home approximately 4 days per week, but I’m currently always available to come in to the office on short notice if needed. What do I need to consider before I make this request?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think the answer to that question varies from state to state, so I’d suggest researching both state’s laws about income tax.

    2. Graciosa*

      If your company doesn’t have existing operations in Oregon, your presence there may be treated as a permanent establishment for tax purposes (not a tax expert, just that I’ve seen it happen so the company will be concerned about this and need to check with someone who is). That can trigger a whole host of reporting requirement, income tax requirements, a need for a new workers’ compensation policy, additional state level reporting (labor or health and safety entities). This kind of compliance is expensive.

      I will tell you that my fairly large (Fortune 50 & Fortune 100) employers have turned these down because of that burden unless the requester was a very high level executive (think C-suite) who asked as part of the recruiting discussions.

      I think you should still ask, but be prepared to have an idea of what you’ll do if you don’t like the answer.

      Good luck.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Thank you, this is what I was worried about! I thought that this might be the case. I’ll have to do some more research.

        1. Boredatwork*

          +1 I am a tax professional – what you are talking about is called Nexus. It may create Nexus for that company in Oregon. Say that word to someone at your company in the HR or tax department and you will get the appropriate yes/no.

  162. Higher ed*

    Today is one of those days when I can’t stand the hierarchy of higher ed. Specifically, how a junior faculty member can be unreasonable and a complete jerk to my staff members, all of whom have more professional experience than she does and are trying to HELP her (although she really really doesn’t get it). Because of course having a PhD and faculty position makes you an expert in everything, even things waaaay outside your expertise. Most faculty are NOT like this, thank goodness, but her attitude is putting me over the edge today because I have to deal with the fallout.

    2. Higher Ed Person*

      OMG I FEEL YOUR PAIN. I really really really do. I’m sorry – no solution here, just sympathy.

  163. MD*

    Does anyone have any tips on trying to get two project managers to talk to each other? Currently I am working on projects for each of them, that don’t cross over in any way. However the problem is they both scheduled deadlines simultaneously, and there’s no possible way i can complete both in the time allowed. There are others in the office that can help either PM out but (kudos to me, I guess) they both want only me. But they don’t talk to each other since their projects are fully independent of one another. These are the kind of projects that have constant emergencies that I have to react to immediately Several times a day one or the other will ask me for a status check. Then I tell them, well I’m working on the other PM’s stuff now, who told me i had to. I always email/skype/call/stop over at their desk to tell them when I have to switch gears but the message never seems to sink in. To me the only solution is that they need to actually tall to each other to schedule my work. But they won’t do it. So…..what can I do to convince them that I need them to communicate with each other?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If their projects aren’t connected in any way, then I don’t think the solution is for them to communicate.

      Who is your direct supervisor? That person should be handling the distribution of your workload and communicating with both PMs if there are conflicting assignments.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I’d say the same thing as Detective Amy.

      I have been a PM over small projects for a while, and this is so normal. Sometimes, I would even have a team member assigned to two of my projects and would have conflicting deadlines for them. . .no second PM, and I still have conflicts! Generally, this happens because a scope or schedule change from the plan due to Outside Factors. Even when I’m the PM for both, I still go to the functional manager for that team member at let them know that I have 60 hrs worth of mechanical engineering to be done that week, and I’ve only been assigned the engineer for 30 hrs. He gets me someone else, or we work together to shift the schedule.

    3. Thlayli*

      Agree with pp’s. This is your direct managers concern. Tell her the issue and let her sort it out.

  164. Gene Parmesan*

    If you are currently employed and happy with your job, what would make you apply for another job?

    I’ve been in my current job, which is a niche field in higher education administration, for 1.5 years. I work at a small college and my department is a one-person shop. I just saw an opening for a position in my field at a large university in my area, and I’m deciding whether to apply.

    Pros of current job:
    -Higher title and level of responsibility
    -Slightly higher pay

    Pros of other job opening:
    -I currently have a 25-mile commute each way. The new job would be less than a mile from my house.
    -The benefits at the new job are quite a bit better in terms of health insurance and retirement (my current employer does not make any matching contributions to retirement).

    So, I guess I’m trying to decide if the benefits and convenience would outweigh the slight decrease in pay and drop in job title/prestige. I would love to hear any stories!

    1. AeroEngineer*

      I would apply at the very least just for the pros, as for me personally, those are very important things and I would be willing to take a small pay cut for them depending on how the interviews go.

      I don’t know how much the pay drop is, but it might be that reducing the commute and increased benefits might overall make it worth it. And you never know, you might be able to negotiate higher pay. Job title and prestige is more so a personal thing, would there be an opportunity to move up etc, or would you be stuck forever in that position.

      Worst case is that you apply and it doesn’t work out, right?

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Agreed. I took a small drop in pay for my current higher ed job and the better benefits mean that my take-home amount is actually higher than my previous job.

    3. Nacho*

      25 miles is a lot. Even on the highway that’s got to be 30 minutes to an hour each way, right? If you factor in that and the benefits, it sounds like new job will make you more per hour than current job if it’s only a slightly higher pay.

    4. Gene Parmesan*

      Thanks! I just double-checked the benefits at both employers, and the new one is actually pretty equivalent for health insurance, but the retirement is definitely better because there’s up to a 5% employer match, but I’d have to work there for 3 years to be fully vested (there is no vesting at my current job–it’s just whatever I contribute to my 403b). Then I tried to quantify commuting costs–let’s say I would drive an extra 45 miles per day, at $0.55 per mile (IRS rate) and 261 working days per year, which would come out to $6000 something. I’d say all in all, the new job actually might be better financially.

      As far as the job title/prestige/responsibility, think going from “Director of Teapots” to “Teapot Research Analyst.” However, I don’t have much upward mobility at my current employer, and the new employer would probably offer more opportunities in the long run, because I could work my way towards something like “Director of Teapots” there. I guess I’m leaning towards at least applying, then I could gauge if there’s any flexibility in salary or even job title (e.g., “Senior Teapot Research Analyst”).

      1. AnotherAlison*

        I usually see this go the other way, because I’m at a bigger organization, but I think it’s a reasonable move. I’ve had coworkers go get higher level jobs at smaller companies, then come back with those same higher positions in our bigger company. You’re doing the opposite, but the principles are the same. I’d be concerned if you were taking a step back at similar small organization, but I think it’s fine if you’re moving up in organization size, where there are also growth opportunities. And the commute is a win.

    5. Gene Parmesan*

      My current commute is not trivial, but it’s not as bad as it might sound. It’s on a rural county highway where I can usually make it in right around 30 minutes, though there’s always the possibility of getting stuck behind a slow driver. I listen to French audio lessons during the drive, and it’s pretty pleasant. The downside is that my husband and I have 3 kids, and I can’t get from work to school or preschool quickly if a kid gets sick or I want to go to their class party, etc.

    6. Lady Jay*

      I’m about to leave a job I really love because there’s no career trajectory. I’m good at the work, it’s important . . . but in twenty years, if I were still here, I’d be doing pretty much the same thing.

      Think about what you want in the future. How long do you want the commute? Do you eventually want to pick up better health insurance and retirement? Where do you want to be in five or ten years?

    7. SpaceNovice*

      Even if it’s a small pay cut, you’re going to save money on gas and wear/tear on your car. Also, with the better health insurance and retirement, that’s additional money saved. Getting more time is one of the things that makes people happier across the board.

      Also: it doesn’t hurt to apply! I say try for it.

  165. Splendiferous anonymous for this*

    y’all. I love my job. I love what I do. I feel like I’m contributing to the common good, helping the helpless, etc.

    I AM SO UNMOTIVATED LATELY. I get maybe one action item completed in a day, which is terrible. I don’t know how to shake this overall sense of ennui, and my focus is for shit. Help?

      1. AeroEngineer*

        yesss +1000 to this. I am feeling the same and today was my last day before a week of vacation. Refreshing time here I comeeeeeee!

    2. Kat*

      Is it possible for you to get one or two new tasks or projects to do? Sometimes I get into a slump and just need to do something different for a while.

  166. Life Decisions*

    Hi everyone – I have a big decision coming up and I would love input / perspectives from others (I’m also gathering these from people in my life).

    I am soon to finish up a Master of Fine Arts degree in Visual Art, that I completed while working part time (29 hours a week) at a job I have had for almost 5 years (it was full time, they let me reduce my hours to do the program). Now that I’m almost done, my supervisor encouraged me to apply for a PhD program that would be really interesting and allow me to push my art practice and career, and I found out about a week ago that I did get in to that program.

    Also, my workplace has changed recently. I had a disconcerting incident with a coworker that is taking a long time to resolve, they made us move desks with no discussion of how to mitigate concerns from a great office to a less great one that isn’t well-suited to our work which requires a lot of talking (now we’re in open cubes, near people who need quiet to focus), and they also laid off two of my colleagues, and then offered one a new position, but they had to have a last day with everyone upset and THEN the org announced they were coming back in 2 weeks, and they have just posted a job that is basically indistinguishable from the job of the other person they laid off, while saying that it was “about the positions, not the people”. So I’m pretty disengaged and angry, and I’ve been there through so many things that I’m also getting a bit “well if so and so were still here that wouldn’t have bee done that way,” and my favourite grandboss left last summer. The work is still quite fun and creative, though.

    I have submitted a resume for the new posting on my team, because that set of things is more in line with my overall skillset and passion than what I’m doing now, but I also feel really conflicted about it, because I think they actually just wanted to get rid of my coworker without telling him that it was about him, which I don’t think does him a service. I don’t expect that I would have a different salary or anything, I would just be working to some extend on content more relevant to my interests and schooling.

    My options are:
    – do the PhD and go down a path of being an academic or practicing artist. This would come with a lot of uncertainty. The PhD could help me in the field my full-time job is in, though, if I wanted to go back. It will be in computational media design, blending art practice and computer science, which is what my art is already about / made with. It would also open up a lot of opportunities, and sounds fancy once you have it. I did a rating matrix and this option got 3.3/5.
    – see if I get the other job on my team and do that. In my rating matrix, this got a 3/5. I would be working on stuff that would be cool and have some new challenges, but I have found it difficult to chart a career at this organization, and am frustrated with it as an organization. I would also feel conflicted about taking my coworker’s job, even though that’s the org being a jerk, not me. I don’t think I’d get a raise or anything, this would be a lateral move, I’d be on the same team, and like probably my title wouldn’t change, just my content area.
    – stay in my current job, which I know and is fun, and I seem to be reasonably good at. Does not seem to be uncertain, except who knows if they’d lay me off since they laid my coworker off. But I have no indication that they would. I would still have to deal with the aggravating organizational aspects of the org, and I am pretty cranky right now.
    – quit my job and find another fulltime job – this isn’t something I’m considering so much because … I could do that any time. But I would probably have more financial stability than going the PhD route.
    – quit my job and be an artist / freelance, but not do the PhD – this would be really fun but REALLY uncertain, and I’m not sure why I wouldn’t do the PhD in this case.

    I would like to have a kid sometime in the next 4-ish years, so the ease of getting mat leave if i have a fulltime job in which I am not freelancing is a minor factor in my decision, but also, freelancers and PhD students do manage to have kids.

    I would like to make some contribution to my family’s finances, but am privileged to be in a stable financial position and a 2-income household. My husband has said he will support my decision, and doesn’t seem to feel super strongly about any option.

    Any input from the commentariate / anyone who has impressions based on their past experience, I would love to hear from!

    1. Rhetoric/Communication PhD student (almost)*

      I’m starting a PhD in Rhetoric & Communication in the fall. A few thoughts:
      * You know this, but arts PhDs are a financial gamble. Have a backup plan (UX design, maybe?) Ask around in your field to determine what this would be.
      * Look for programs with higher stipends. In my field, stipends can vary up to 5K/year, or more if you throw in scholarships. I’ve noticed that graduate students at some programs have no kids; other programs have two or three kids. If you want kids, choose a program that pays a bit more. Look for whether the graduate students (and faculty) have kids.
      * Are you doing the PhD because you’re not sure what else to do, or because you REALLY want to? I heard this a lot when I was working up to employing – that you’ll spend a LOT of time on the work, so you’d better love it. I do think it’s possible to maintain work/life balance in graduate school, though; it’s just a deliberate choice and will set you apart from other people.

      Good luck with the decision!

      1. Life Decisions*

        Thanks a lot for your input!

        I don’t expect the PhD would guarantee me some sort of specific career – and I could certainly, after doing this, go into some sort of UX / human computer interaction / design type work(more than I could now, with my visual art degrees). What I’d like to do after doing it is be an artist working on projects combining art and technology, so you’re consistently applying for shows and grants and so on, and in that arena, having a PhD would look good, and I think be really fun and interesting, and I really like the computer science supervisor I’d be working with. I’d definitely need to combine “being an artist” with other projects though, I’m hoping things like arts consulting, arts admin, or I might go back to informal science and try do more higher level integrating arts-tech-science in museums stuff, or do more maker education related things (on the theory / program development side in institutions like libraries, universities with maker spaces, etc). I could also supplement with other tech-related things, or maybe some academic stuff.

        I know what my funding offer is, so I can consider that, and what my tuition is (I think the combo of funding / tuition is a little different in Canada). I know a few people in the program because it’s at the University I’m already at, and I have booked a time to speak with one of them.

        I definitely am actually really interested in doing this PhD. I don’t know that I completely know what to expect, which makes me feel like I just don’t know what I’m doing, but that was how I felt at the beginning of this degree as well and I’ve done well. If I felt like I didn’t know what to do, the easiest option by far would be to just stay at my job. I’m also doing a lot of extra work to even be eligible for the PhD, which wouldn’t mean I had to take it, but I think means I am definitely willing to do it. (Normally, we finish the MFAs in September, which is too late for them to accept me, and I was able to push my thesis exhibition and defense up to June and July, so as to be done).

    2. Gene Parmesan*

      Do you have a specific career goal where a PhD is mandatory or advantageous? Do you know the funding situation for the program you’ve applied to (i.e. would you get a fellowship or assistantship with tuition waiver)? Would you and your spouse have to relocate for you to do the PhD? Would you have to relocate again when you finish the program (if your career goal is to be an academic, this is 99% probably yes), and are you okay with that? There are (generally speaking) a lot more people getting PhDs than there are academic jobs, and the job market is only getting tighter. This is a hard decision to make. I would do some soul-searching and spend some time reading the blog The Professor Is In.

      Source: have PhD in a social science field; recognize the dysfunction in academia.

      1. Life Decisions*

        My career goal is basically move to a mix of freelance work (which would not require the PhD) and being a contemporary artist, and having the PhD would, I think, set me apart in that area. I don’t expect I could easily support myself just with grants and exhibitions, but it’s an area in which your CV is one of the first things people see about a project. Also your project has to be good, but it’s supporting evidence you can get things done. I am considering whether I’m interested in academia, but am not set on that and know that I’d need to move to do that. I also think it could set me apart in museum / informal science / maker education -related fields, and I know people in those fields from my current job.

        I have my funding offer already, and I would not have to relocate for this degree.

        Thanks a lot for the advice and for the blog recommendation, I’ll check it out!

  167. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    For those of you who’ve ever moved for a job: how do you assess your potential new city before committing to move there? I moved across the country for a job almost a year ago and clearly failed to properly get a feel for the area, because I hate it here. I’m looking to move again, and I don’t want to make the same mistake twice!

    I currently look at: websites like livability dot com and US News and World Report; city-data dot com; Zillow and craigslist (to get a feel for home and rental prices); and whatever local news publications I can find. I’m looking for things like culture, quality of life, things to do, affordability, that kind of thing – just making sure I don’t get stuck in another tiny, rural, backwater town where everyone is either in college or 15 years older than me!

    1. AeroEngineer*

      I stalk google maps and google maps streetview as a main thing if I am unable to actually go visit the area at all. I also look at the things you listed, and so far have only really been burned once.

      The city I currently live in (which I LOVE) I did google streetview stalking, looking at the types of stores in the city etc. I also tried out my network of people who had been there or in the area to see if they had any input about it (not so successful in getting info, but no concerning issues). I also knew already that the nearest universities were in neighboring cities larger than the one I live in, so I assumed correctly that there would be few students (and any students would be living more with parents), yet big and hip enough from google maps to know that there would be younger and older people.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        This is so helpful, thank you! I’ll take myself on a little walking tour, courtesy of Google maps :)

    2. LawBee*

      If you can take a trip out there, that’s the best way. I thought for years that Portland, OR would be a good city for me – and I’ve visited it three times, and ugh. No. It’s a great city, but I can tell that I would hate it there. No internet research can replace going there and seeing it for yourself.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        It’s so funny you mentioned that – I originally came from Portland! I liked it for a while but by the end, it just wasn’t for me anymore.

        What kind of things do you do to get a good sense of the city? I visited my current location in person once, but it was a super quick interview trip so I basically took the scenic drive here from the airport, walked around campus (I work at a university), did my interview, and then drove around aimlessly through different neighborhoods on my way out of town. I liked it then, because there are a lot of cute houses and neighborhoods – just not ones that were affordable.

    3. Mel*

      If the city/area is large enough to have a wikipedia article there is likely to be some helpful information there (though wikipedia, so take it with caution) about demographics, culture, arts, history, economy, etc.
      If it isn’t large enough to have a wikipedia article…that tells you something too.

      Also I’ve found strangely useful things on municipal webpages. Look at what kind of services the city has, what community events they advertise. They’re obviously not going to try and make their city look bad on the municipal website, but it can still be helpful in getting a feel for the place. Even the city council agendas or minutes can tell things about the people and the community. (I recently went to a city council meeting–there was a proposal for a residential plot to be rezoned to residential agricultural so the family could buy a cow for their son’s project for something like FFA or 4H. It was awesome)

    4. AnotherAlison*

      Not seeing the place would scare the crap out of me, based on recent experiences and my propensity for research. I have been in New City for 2 days, but I got to travel up here twice before committing to a specific area. I saw some new townhome complexes that looked great online, and even on Google maps, but on a drive-by, I saw they were next to abandoned buildings, and even though they were downtown, the area wasn’t as walkable as I would want if I was going to be in a city.

      I also read Google reviews of businesses and apartment complexes, reddit, articles about the city from local publications, and added several local pubs to my Twitter feed. I found that when I was talking about New City at work (it’s a job transfer) that several of my coworkers had lived here before (mostly a long time ago, though, when they were at a competing company) or had family here. So, it might be worth it to put feelers out to your personal network. Anyone you can talk to, do it. I’m someone who grew up in one place, but with work travel and personal travel has been to most states and a lot of places I thought I would like, I would never want to live in.

    5. The Person from the Resume*

      I bet you learned a lot from your experience. Can you distill what you hate and what you miss?

      I was actually concerned I would not like my city because it has a reputation for drinking and partying and music, but it is the largest big city to the podunk town I grew up in and near family. The reputation is somewhat misleading and there are ways to enjoy the town without being wasted and debaucherous. It may be hard to discover with at least visiting or living here, though.

      I would think, though, if your hobbies and interest can provide thing to search on in the town that would be good. i.e sports (to play or spectate), museums, live music scene, comedy scene, etc.

    7. neverjaunty*

      Those livability articles are so full of hooey, IME. I think you can’t beat actually going there to visit for a start, and then talking to people who live there about what they love and hate about where they live.

  168. Weyrwoman*

    I got my job offer and start in two weeks! :) *dances*

    I’m so excited to finally be working in my chosen industry – the 25% pay increase helps too, of course. Now I just have to figure out how to get all my chotchkes off my current desk, stored sufficiently at home, and then migrated to my new desk once I get assigned it…

    Oh, also my classes started for school. They’re making me take a bunch of 101-type stuff since it’s been a bit since I did anything college related, and if this weren’t for 101-level classes, the assignments would be insulting.

  169. Kat*

    Today we offered two jobs to two people for internships. We had three we really liked, so not offering to the third was so hard. The previous times I have done this, I’ve enjoyed it and felt no doubt about my decision. This time, not so much. I can’t stop worrying about it because we had to choose on the tightest margin and small details. I am trusted with this recruitment every year, despite not being a manager, and I’ve got it right before. I just worry I haven’t this time.

    I didn’t do it alone and my partner in this job and I came to the same decision. But I feel anxious about it. I wondered if this happens to others who are maybe more experienced in recruitment?

    1. fposte*

      I do a lot of hiring where most of my finalists could be excellent in the job and it’s just a matter of “We have to pick one because we have only one slot.” It sounds like that’s where you were. The thing is, you could make a decision another way and have both that decision and this one be right. It sounds like you’re looking at the strength of the candidate you declined as an indication of a possible mistake on your part, but when you get a talented group of finalists, you’re going to feel some loss whatever decision you make–it doesn’t mean you chose wrong.

      1. Tardigrade*

        Your comments are always so helpful and kindly-worded. I feel like you could have your own life advice blog. I would certainly seek it.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, thanks! This particular problem–too many excellent candidates–is right in my wheelhouse. It’s a good problem to have, but it can take a while to get used to.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I once got turned down for a job and the hiring manager said he hoped we’d keep in touch. I thanked him, thinking he was just being nice, but then his boss called and offered to send my resume to some of his colleagues. Through that job I didn’t get, I found a job at a company where I ended up staying for 8 years. So if it helps alleviate the anxiety, please reach out to the third candidate and offer to stay in touch. If you have any other positions that come up and the third candidate is appropriate, keep her in mind.

      1. Kat*

        Yes, we’re already going to advise her to apply again later and that we’d look favourably on her application. I don’t have much influence myself, but I would definitely stay in touch with her and do my best to help her get hired next time, if I could. She was really lovely, and I feel terrible that I’ll need to send her a rejection.

  170. Thursday Next*

    I adjuncted for several years before stopping three years ago to handle some family responsibilities. Those responsibilities haven’t abated, but this past semester (see, I still think in semesters!) I began to miss it. I’ve just been offered an adjunct gig at my alma mater that would give me total syllabus discretion, which I’ve only had a couple of times before as an adjunct.

    What’s the problem? I’M SUPER NERVOUS! I haven’t created a syllabus in forever. I haven’t taught juniors and seniors in forever. Ack!

    Has anyone returned to academia after an extended break? Or dealt with stepping into a higher-pressure teaching role, adjunct or otherwise? How did you prepare yourself, intellectually and emotionally, for the change?

    I look forward to any words of wisdom or encouragement!

  171. Zeph*

    In a catchup with the grandboss [she’s only been in the executive teapot producer position since January] on Tuesday, I mentioned that I was applying to the senior teapot producer position that was just listed on the careers site. I fit the job description and requirements to a T and have put in 2.5 years here with consistently ‘above expectations’ work and formal reviews that have been documented. This job is the logical next step for where I am in my career and in our internal hierarchy. She is the hiring manager for this position too.

    She responds that the only way I’ll get the job is if “we get a whole bunch of crappy resumes!”

    I was so shocked I just blinked.

    Guess who’s turned a careful, informal job search into a full-blown active, get-me-out-of-here search?

    3. Salsterr*

      That is awful! Does she have a history of blurting out whatever comes to mind, or was she being purposefully rude?

      1. Zeph*

        She is kinda blunt in general, but this was above and beyond anything I’d ever heard her say.

        Oh, and when I got my thoughts together to try and salvage the situation with a ‘what should I be doing to make myself more likely to be considered’ line of questioning, she said that she could draw me up a plan that “would basically be a second full-time job on top of what I was hired to do.”

        1. valentine*

          This is a really great turnaround that will serve you well as you interview. It reminds me of martial arts where you use the opponent’s movement to propel yourself. The blinking gave you space to gather your thoughts.

  172. ArghTheTypos!*

    Hi late commenters! Any advice on some nice phrasing that boils down to “we don’t trust you not to send out things with mistakes”? Early this week, colleague and I had a meeting with another department. We manage the online marketing for our org, they wanted to own sending their dept’s online marketing pieces out. Sadly, they are not great at making sure their communications are typo free so colleague and I agree that we need to retain approval. (This also won’t let them add names to their mailing list.) As a great example, just yesterday, one of the members of their team showed a powerpoint to a group of a dozen senior staff that had a very obvious typo in bold type, repeatedly!
    Any suggestions appreciated.

    1. Reba*

      Maybe cite consistency of Org identity?

      I also think you could name the problem, like “it’s very important to us that the materials representing Org are free of typos and other mistakes, so to do that things will continue to be funneled through us.”

    2. kmb*

      Can you say something like “we need to maintain approval to ensure copyediting standards across the company” and if they’re like “but we’ll do a great job” can you point to the examples you mentioned? Like “I know you guys want to do this, but X, Y and Z documents had some pretty big types like A, B and C, and we have a process for ensuring those kinds of things aren’t missed, so we need to keep doing that process for your materials.”

      1. kmb*

        You could also ask why they want it and see if you could accommodate / accommodate some of the outcomes they want another way. Like if they want to speed up timelines, is there a feasible way to do that that doesn’t make everyone’s life harder?

      2. ArghTheTypos!*

        Thanks for the feedback kmb and Reba–“copyediting standards” might be a good phrasing. One of the issues is that if you get access to adding email addresses in the system, it also gives you the ability to send out emails. they really want to add new names frequently, and without going through their department. I’m wary of saying “hey – I’ve seen the typos in materials you’ve distributed internally” It’s a quick way to put people on the defensive.

        1. Reba*

          Sounds like you need to spell out some rules of the road though, beyond what the software makes possible, what is your Org going to allow people to do. Can you appeal to a higher authority at all?

          But if you can’t tell someone they made a typo, though — and if they don’t agree about the importance of not having typos — I mean, IDK.

  173. Like The City*

    Well, the job search of the last couple of months is slowly starting to build up steam! One phone screening scheduled for this week, a phone interview for another position scheduled next week and a third that hasn’t quite reached that point but is steadily moving along. I think I’m beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel of toxicity that this job has been. Now off to read AAM’s tips for phone interviews as I’ve never done one before. (Previous jobs were with smaller companies that went straight to face-to-face.) If anyone else has additional tips, they’d be much appreciated!

  174. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

    How do you list public speaking gigs on a resume? What about LinkedIn?

    I’m a software developer, so public speaking is far from being a job requirement. That said, getting invited to speak at a technical conference is definitely an asset, because it shows other people recognize your knowledge of the field. This week I had my first proposal accepted to speak at a conference, and I’m curious how to indicate this on my resume (whenever I get around to updating it) and my LinkedIn. Even more so since I hope that now that I’ve gotten my first invitation I’ll be able to get more in the future.

    1. Reba*

      If you also contribute to open source libraries or other projects, you can make a section about contributions to the field (or something like that)

      If you do more presentations in future, they can get their own section, e.g. “Talks and Workshops” or simply “Presentations.”

      Hope you have fun!

    2. AMT*

      I put my conference presentations in the “publications” section, which, in my case, has two subheaders: “Books and chapters” and “Conference presentations.” Not technically a publication, sure, but IDK how else to word the header. “Publications and research” could work.

    3. Cedrus Libani*

      I have an “Invited Presentations” section on my resume, giving the title of the talk and the conference. It doesn’t make the one-page version, but it does make the CV-style version with publications, etc.

  175. Just Someone*

    Hi All

    So… everyone in the office had talked about having New Teapot Initiative for years, and no one had taken actual action or specific steps to make it a reality. It had just been “talked about,” and everyone was wondering what was going to happen.

    I’m pretty new to my job, so people had mentioned it to me, that they wanted me to help create it.

    Because I’m the Teapot Manager, I thought it would fall under my list of responsibilities to work on this. While it wasn’t “assigned” to me, my job is to do this type of thing, and it’s something people had wanted for a long time.

    So I created a whole plan for it, and I ran it by the Big Boss as something I was doing to make him aware that I was going to bring it up in the next staff meeting. He said that it was great, he was excited about it, and he supported it completely.

    The day of the meeting comes, and Big Boss announces this new initiative… and then announces that Jane from Teapot Client Department will be doing it and it’s sort of a promotion and he just told her before the meeting.

    So now, I’m in this meeting, in shock, basically, because not only am I not doing this initiative anymore, but now I can’t talk about it in the meeting, because Big Boss just announced Jane was going to do it.

    It was a hard moment to swallow.

    1. Zeph*

      Wow. What a terrible situation. I’m so sorry. Do you feel you can go to Big Boss and ask about it?

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, Big Boss, WTH? How demoralizing.

        But it probably is worth probing where this comes from — is there anything you need to improve from your Boss’s point of view, or was this just more about Jane than about you?

        1. Just Someone*

          Dude. He didn’t even mention it to me! Look, like, I don’t care if Jane does this initiative or I do. Seriously, she can do it and I never have to think about it again, and that’s fine.

          The issue is that:
          1. I was the one that made the whole plan and scheduled the meeting and created this whole thing — and Jane has been here for 3 years. What I’m saying is, she had 3 years to do it, and she DIDN’T, and I took initiative within a month of working here.

          2. He told me he was super excited about it and it was so great and blahblahblah, and then “pseudo-promotes” Jane IMMEDIATELY prior to the meeting without even telling me!

          What I’m saying is, if when I mentioned to him he’d been like, “Hey, that’s a good idea, but I’d rather your role be spent doing Teapot Manufacturing, but I’ll have Jane do this instead,” I would’ve been like, OK fine. But that is NOT what happened.

          Oh, I forgot, he also sort of threw in something about how Jane would be the one to do the meeting going forward — with me helping??? — which doesn’t even make any sense, because it’s a meeting I created in the first place! (And he announced this in the meeting as well without any prior heads up.)

          You’re right it’s super demoralizing. Basically, I’m taking initiative and actually DOING things and making plans and then EXECUTING (which has NOT happened at this company at all — people just say “I want this and this” and then no one does anything). And then it’s like, oh, well, someone else is going to get promoted to do this idea that YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE DOING ANY WORK ON.

          ahgdoaoidghiodghiudhhghghg

          It is demoralizing to the point where I’m seriously considering doing only the bare minimum, and instead of spending “extra” time working on initiatives, use it on my own personal projects. Honestly, that might even go over better.

          1. Reba*

            Yeah, Dingus Boss really handled it poorly. You now have a lot more information about how the place works.

            No reason not to talk to him about it next week though and try to find out what’s up, after you’ve cooled down a bit.

      2. Just Someone*

        He’s already gone for the day. It’s probably better because I am still super mad right now.

    2. Tardigrade*

      I’m sorry, the situation sucks. You said, they wanted you to “help create it” and you mentioned it your boss, but did your boss actually understand the amount of work you put into it and that it was just you, solo, sans-Jane?

      Regardless, I don’t think it’s out of line to ask about. “Hey Boss, I was confused when you told us Jane will be doing the Awesome Initiative. I talked to you about it before the meeting and was really excited to work on this, so I wanted to understand what my role is now.”

      2. Just Someone*

        Yeah, I’m going to mention it to him. I think we need to have a talk about expectations for my role in general. I think the biggest thing was just being blind-sighted in my own meeting. I want to make sure the work I’m doing is the work I’ll be recognized for when I have my review.

        1. Seriously?*

          It sounds like you should ask him if he has concerns about your performance or if you have been focusing on the wrong things because he took two of your project away from you. If he tends to be frazzled then maybe he didn’t realize that is what he was doing. Or maybe you are spending your time on the wrong projects and he is (very poorly) trying to redirect you. Either way pointing out how it looks from your perspective should help clarify what is going on while also pointing out how much work you did on the other projects.

          1. Just Someone*

            I highly doubt he has concerns about my performance because I’ve only been here a month.

            Also, I’ve only gotten positive feedback so far.

            I literally think his train of thought was, “Oh, Teapot Initiative! Great idea! I’ll ask Jane to do it!” And… that’s it. I doubt he had even one thought past that. And I don’t think it even occurred to him that if I hadn’t done anything, then none of this would have existed to give to Jane in the first place.

            So… yeah… I’ll talk to him, but I’ve gotten the feedback from other people that he can be difficult to get through to. So……. I have pretty low expectations. But then my question is, how am I supposed to succeed in my role if I’m not supposed to do anything that works out? I don’t know if that’s the right question.

            Anyway, thanks for the support, everybody. I appreciate it, and I feel better having some people to talk to about this.

            Maybe if I want to be noticed, I just have to get them to like me, and not worry so much about my performance. I know that sounds bad, but… maybe that’s how things work around here? I’m not sure.

            1. Seriously?*

              I wasn’t thinking that he actually has concerns, but more that it is a good way to open the conversation without sounding like you are complaining or being adversarial. It can also sometimes shock him into paying attention if he actually is happy with your work. If he is handing the projects off to more senior people then it might be that you are taking on higher level work than you should be, which can be useful to know so that you direct your energy in a way that won’t lead to disappointment.

              1. Just Someone*

                Oh, I see what you’re saying. That’s really good advice to phrase it like that. Thank you for clarifying.

                Regarding your last point, let’s say you’re right; so…….. what does that mean? I wouldn’t be taking this stuff on if I didn’t feel totally comfortable doing it. I’ve also never been at an organization where taking initiative and making things better wasn’t rewarded. The execs I know at other places have told me that’s what you’re supposed to do anyway if you want to do well — to take initiative and do. Everyone else in the company just makes suggestions, but the only people who actually take action are in the leadership team.

                Jane is not someone I’ve seen do that with anything work-related… with the exception of getting us free lunch or having a day to work from home. (Which I TOTALLY appreciate, by the way.) But apparently like, as of this morning, because of MY ideas, now she pseudo is on the leadership team?

                I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but I do appreciate your advice. I’ll say something like, “I wanted to ask you if you have concerns about my performance because I had taken the initiative to work on Project, and it was handed over to Jane instead.” Maybe that still sounds adversarial. I’ll work on it.

                1. Seriously?*

                  I think it is more that if you have only been there a month it may be too early to have an accurate assessment of what people are working on and the timescale expected. Or it might be too early for your boss to feel comfortable having you run a large initiative. It might be that you need to prove yourself on a few smaller projects first before taking on a stretch project. It isn’t necessarily about your capabilities but more about getting a proven track record at this organization if this is an important project. I have no idea if this is the case or not, just one possibility. Or it could be that Jane is being groomed for a promotion and this seemed like a good project for her to prove herself on. That could have already been in the works before and you were simply unaware.

                  Instead of saying that you took the initiative to work on Project, I would probably say “I wanted to ask you if you had concerns about my performance because when we discussed Project you seemed happy with my plan to do X, Y and Z and then at the meeting you gave the project to Jane instead.”

      3. Just Someone*

        I don’t know if he realized the planning I had put into it or not. He’s a very results-focused person and gets frazzled when you talk about how you’re going to do something. Instead of lying it out, I thought it would be better to say more like, “Hey, by the way this is something I’m going to do,” and then talk about my successes afterwards. Maybe that was a mistake.

  176. Blue Swan*

    Okay, here’s a fresh one:

    I just walked into our three-stall restroom. Woman in the stall furthest from the door has the door open, I’m not sure what she’s doing. I keep my head down and go into the stall closest to the door. She makes no effort to close the door. I was in shock, so I don’t remember if I hear a flush or not (if she was doing business), but I know she washed her hands because I looked through the crack to see who it was.

    This is just kind of bizarre. Do I say something to someone? I am a low-level manager and this was a part-time worker from another department.

    1. LawBee*

      Nope. It’s weird, but what would you say? Maybe the door latch was broken and the door didn’t swing open until it was too late for her to adjust. I mean, it’s definitely odd, but I’d just let it go.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Exactly. . .what would you say? If I saw her actively using the toilet with the door open multiple times, that would be different, but she could have been blowing her nose, or just sneaking in to adjust a bra or any number of quasi-personal grooming things she didn’t want to do at her desk.

        1. Bluebell*

          Agreed on this – there are multiple clothing adjustments she might need to do, or it could have been a door malfunction.

        2. Blue Swan*

          Very true, I’m not sure what I would say and since it’s an isolated incident, I’ll keep quiet.

    2. Murphy*

      Does your office have tissues? Was she just blowing her nose? I’ve acted similarly in that kind of situation.

      1. Imaginary Number*

        I was going to say exactly this. Blowing nose, adjusting a strap, fixing a wedgie … all things that I’ve dipped into a bathroom stall for without closing the door.

    3. Blue Swan*

      Thanks to everyone for their feedback, I automatically jumped to “worst case scenario” and didn’t think of other, more normal alternatives.

  177. Stranger than fiction*

    Hey do you think it’s ok to have a different job title on linked in? Mine doesn’t accurately describe what I really do. My company isn’t very active there anyway, so it’s a slim chance anyone would care or notice. I don’t mean outright lie, but I mean like how some people don’t put a title necessarily, but instead they say “SaaS enthusiast” or “passionate about making others successful” or “subject matter expert” . Any of those would be true, they’re just not my job title. And I’m trying to make a switch and wanting to capture attention of certain area of expertise and am worried if someone doesn’t actually drill down to see my actual job description they’ll just look right past me.

    1. k.k*

      I would not use a different title. If someone sees that and compares it to your resume or reference checks, it could seem like you’re lying or trying to hide something. I would put both my title and the thing you’re suggesting. It might look like “Job Title (Subject Matter Expert)”.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        I’m probably going to change my resume too but I see what you’re saying. I’ve basically been doing a second job and was supposed to get an official promotion when sales got better…that was 18 mos ago

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      You might want to change the headline on your profile rather than your job title. You can put something descriptive that reflects what you do (but don’t make it too long). Since that’s the first thing people see beyond your name, it’s often how people decide whether or not to click on your profile.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Yeah that’s kinda what I meant but was gonna drop the title all together

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          You can put whatever you want in the headline. People don’t expect it to necessarily be the same as your current job title.

  178. Lumos*

    Very confused right now. I just got an email asking to schedule a time to talk about my qualifications because my resume came across their desk for a management development program. This company is several states away and I have never applied to them. I don’t even meet the qualifications of the position they want to talk about. (I looked it up) The company is legit but I have no idea how to reply.

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      Guess it doesn’t hurt to set up a call. But be sure to ask for a job description and ask what made them interested. A couple things come to mind that I’ve heard from friends. Sometimes recruiters want to pick your brain about your employer but aren’t necessarily interested in you; or they’re interested specifically in someone else you work woth (like a manager) and haven’t been successful in reaching out to them directly so they go through you under flse pretense.

      1. Lumos*

        I’ll meet their qualifications in December, but I don’t think they’re hiring for that late. And the company is in Virginia, whereas I’m in Florida. I haven’t even ever applied for their partner companies.

      2. Mickey Q*

        It could be a scam. Check the email to make sure it actually came from the company.

  179. well_hi_there*

    Didn’t want to derail the ‘pregnancy brain’ thread, but I was recently a pregnant nerdy person and I HAVE A THEORY about pregnancy brain. Disclaimer: not a doctor, etc. However, my proposed solution is harmless and delicious, so I feel comfortable sharing with those who may be interested. Theory in reply!

    1. well_hi_there*

      Data point 1: Choline deficiency damages short-term memory (specifically, the conversion of short-term into long-term memories). Citation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16755811
      Data point 2: Pregnancy (and lactation) use up a lot of maternal choline (citation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2441939/#R78)
      My conclusion: Pregnancy brain is exacerbated by choline deficiency.
      My solution: Happily, many delicious things are high in choline! Meat for sure, but I don’t eat a lot of meat, so I present: my prenatal choline-boosting smoothie: In whatever proportions you like, blend most or all of the following: soymilk, coffee, good vanilla ice cream containing egg yolks, peanut butter, cocoa powder, banana (for flavor/texture/folate; bananas are not actually high in choline, but all other ingredients are). High-calorie, drinkable at work, high in choline and folate, oh and did I say delicious? Delicious.

        1. well_hi_there*

          It definitely helped! I kept an eye on my choline intake just in general after reading that research, and, anecdotally, I felt a lot sharper.

  180. Cobblestone*

    There was a HUGE fire across the street from my work building this week. As soon as I heard it on the radio and checked the news, I texted my boss at around 6:30 a.m. He responded something like “Wow!”. I then asked him if it was safe to go to work. We start around 8 a.m. He never responded, and I was increasingly worried because the reports were that the roads were blocked off, firefighters were at the scene battling the fire, and there was smoke all over the city. (The building ended up collapsing, no injuries, neighbouring businesses had some water damage.) But I made my way to work.

    The work building was safe but the air inside our office was smoky. Fire trucks were at the scene and the fire was still active. My boss finally responded to my text asking if it was safe with “Maybe, maybe not.”

    When my boss arrived, he said, “Oh, I didn’t get your joke until later.” I asked him what joke, he said the one where I asked him if it was safe. I said it wasn’t a joke. He said, “But the fire is across the street!”

    I’m taken aback that he would take our health (the air quality inside was poor) and safety (active fire!) so callously. He said we could work from home, so I left as soon as I could, pretty disgusted by his behaviour.

    Is this normal? As far as I know, he didn’t contact the building manager (we rent office space) or talk to the fire marshall or anything else.

    1. fposte*

      I think “fire across the street” could range from “somebody overmicrowaved and the fire department is over there because of the smoke coming out of the window” to something more like your scenario. I don’t really get seeing “Is it safe?” as a joke, but I can see not assuming that it’s a safety threat to you if he didn’t know the extent of it. (I wouldn’t necessarily expect the fire marshal to make an appearance in a building that wasn’t at any risk of fire or structural damage.)

      1. Cobblestone*

        I can see that if he thought it was a small fire, but I texted him a link to the news report with pictures of the building engulfed in flames. I guess I can’t assume he clicked it. But he also had to walk on the road to get to our work building and see the fire trucks spraying water on the fire and all the smoke in the air. And after seeing all that in person, he still told me he thought I was joking. (But yes, our building wasn’t in structural danger.)

    2. Database Geek*

      It’s probably just cluelessness not callousness – he literally didn’t think it was that big of a deal because it was a cross the street, not like it was in the same building or anything. There are people like that.

    3. SpaceNovice*

      He’s just clueless, likely. It’s not a common scenario. Many of us only know about it being toxic as a result of overhearing it from other situations. Still, if the other building was old, you might need an air quality test. Asbestos you don’t mess around with. And even if it wasn’t, really….

  181. SerenityNow*

    Question on following up on scheduling a second interview:

    I had a phone interview this week on Wednesday, and they immediately asked me to come in next week and email my availability. I responded to the email thread we already had within an hour with my availability for next week. Now we’re at 2:30 pm on Friday, and I’m debating whether or not to follow up on the email thread and ask if any of those work. One of my best days for availability is Monday and that was what I hoping they asked for. I have to work the interview around my currently full time job, so some advanced planning is helpful. Thoughts?

    1. Maude Lebowski*

      Could you phrase it like, “Some meetings have come up next week that I need to attend, which might interfere with the times I gave you previously. Do you think that we could settle a meeting time so that I could accommodate them? Monday at x would be ideal.”

      1. SerenityNow*

        I like that! It shows I’m following up and interested without being pushy and gets what I need.

  182. RVA Cat*

    Any tips for helping out a friend who was just laid off? Of course I pointed her here.

    She was effectively given a 60-day notice as her office is closing because the agent left and the new one is bringing in their own staff. I’m guessing this is really, really normal and should be easy to explain in interviews. Is it still standard to give two weeks’ notice though?

  183. CanadianUniversityReader*

    How do you apply for summer jobs when you have severely limited availability for half the summer?

    I’m a university student and due to some unforeseen life stuff I’m now applying for a summer job. However, in July and August I am unavailable on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. When, should I approach this in the interview or the cover letter? I’m assuming that it would be best to apply for a part-time job but does anyone have any suggestions?

    I working towards a specialist in Computer science and I have some experience in the field. I’ve worked as research assistants for professors (one in a development role and one in general admin), lifeguard, swim instructor and day camp counsellor.

    1. CatCat*

      I’d address it in the cover letter for sure so it doesn’t waste anyone’s time (including yours!) if that schedule won’t work.

      As for suggestions, check out temp work. Not glamorous, but it does help get the bills paid.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      My son was in this type of situation, and he ended up working for a few of our neighbors doing things like mowing their acreage, clearing brush, clearing stalls, etc.

      He worked for a car dealership during high school, and as soon as he told them he couldn’t work __ (basically ANY restriction), he was fired that day, which was a month before his schedule restriction even kicked in. Similar with McDonalds and Chik-Fil-A. They want part-time help, but they dictated the part-time schedule.

      I think the best bet is to find a small business or individual you can work for, where you can talk directly to the person you would work for and the schedule can be communicated and understood from both sides. Working for a large company where you get in via a personal connection could also work. Short of that, maybe a weekend-only job? My son’s roommate was a valet and made good money working on Friday/Saturday nights only.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        (Also, if you are taking a typically part-time job like fast food, I would just take it without discussing the July/Aug schedule issues, and then if they let you go, at least you had a month of steady work. I say that as the mom who covers the son’s living expenses when he hasn’t been able to get work. . .not as the manager who would not appreciate that at all, I’m sure.)

    3. A Nickname for AAM*

      I hire lifeguards/swim instructors and I’m more than happy to take someone with restricted availability. It’s a high-volume time of year and there’s a lot of people absent for vacations, orientations, summer classes, etc. There’s always more hours open than there are hands on deck.

  184. Mrs. Fenris*

    Guys, I’m having a serious issue with a coworker as of yesterday. I’m really pissed and I don’t think I can really do anything. I’m a veterinarian and yesterday I had to do the horrifying task of helping my boss euthanize her dog. The office manager tried to interrupt me with a not-very-urgent question! I held up a finger and said sharply, WAIT. I then went to her afterward and said, please don’t ever interrupt me during a euthanasia, no matter who it is. She refused to speak to me for the rest of the day. I don’t think I was wrong, but I’m always willing to be the one to clear the air, so I went in her office this morning and said, hey, about yesterday, I’m sorry I’m was abrupt but- And she looked dead at me and said “I don’t wish to discuss it. Thank you, but I’m in the middle of something and I don’t wish to discuss it.” What the actual hell?

    1. CatCat*

      I’d just wait and see if it blows over. You were 100% right to correct the interruption. You apologized for being sharp about it (though that was not unreasonable, to be honest). I’m not sure there’s much to discuss here. She may have just received the message loud and clear and it doesn’t need to be re-hashed.

      If she continues to not talk to you, I would address that because that’s not functional. But it’s still pretty fresh so I’d give her a couple days to get over it before doing anything further.

    2. Nervous Nellie*

      Uh, I’m not really seeing what you did wrong here either. I mean, sure, your tone might have been abrupt when you initially spoke to her. I was going to suggest that maybe it was until I read your post further and saw that you very nicely and wisely followed up with your apology. A reasonable person would have felt like an ass for interrupting that situation, understood your feedback about it, and accepted the apology. It sounds a little bit like she was trying to do tit-for-tat in brushing you off, which sounds very immature on her part. As if being interrupted during an office task is at all similar to the way she interrupted you during an emotional euthanasia. At this point it doesn’t sound as if you can do anything further. Hopefully she’ll come around and will decide it’s pointless to hold a grudge in the workplace.

    3. Imaginary Number*

      Eek, she’s overreacting, but I can honestly understand how someone would be put off by an extremely dismissive gesture like that if they don’t understand the full implication of interrupting you. And, assuming she’s never made this mistake before, it sounds like you may have been pretty curt in a “don’t ever do that again” kind of way. But, that being said, it sounds like you did the right thing about trying to clear the air later and her response is pretty childish.

      It’s only been one day though. I wouldn’t consider this a serious issue unless the behavior continues. And I’m betting she got the message about not interrupting euthanasia again.

      1. Little Bean*

        Hmm, I feel like I see both sides of this. Like, I completely get why your admin was in the wrong (assuming she knew what procedure she was interrupting) but I also feel like your first 2 responses to her were a little… shaming. Like you were talking to a child who needed to be reprimanded or something. So I can see why she may have been a little upset, especially if she is otherwise a good employee. Also, if your apology started with “I’m sorry I was abrupt but”, it kinda sounds like your attitude going in was “I’m sorry you’re upset but here’s why my actions were justified and you need to get over it” rather than “I’m genuinely sorry I handled it like that and I will do better”. But also, your employee should have just accepted the apology gracefully anyway, so maybe she isn’t the best at managing her emotions either.

    4. Nervous Nellie*

      And can I just say as someone whose dog is nearing the end of his life, I would be beyond pissed off if someone interrupted the euthanasia with some pointless question. Sure, it would probably be awful for them to have to see my ugly crying face, but somehow that wouldn’t make up for being interrupted during what I know will be one of the worst times of my life. No matter how much I’ve tried to prepare for it I know I’ll be a wreck when that little guy goes. You were 100% correct in letting her know that it’s never acceptable to do that.

      1. Master Bean Counter*

        I hear you I was beyond pissed that I got pulled out of the room before we had our last dog put down. The poor girl was in pain. But the office manager pulled me out to deal with the payment. I may have whipped out a credit card and shoved it into hard just a little harshly before returning to my dog.

        1. Nervous Nellie*

          What?! That’s nuts. I think any obvious anger on your part was warranted. I’ve only ever had one pet put down before and I don’t even remember paying for it. Obviously I did but they made the whole process so smooth and were so sensitive about it all. It wasn’t even our usual vet but I remember their kindness and the way they made the process as easy as possible. That’s what you need at a time like that!

        2. Thursday Next*

          I think the way that a veterinary office handles *everything* around euthanizations is really important. I’ve had to euthanize my three cats (over a 16-year period), and was treated with remarkable compassion. I’m sorry you had a terrible experience.

          1. Master Bean Counter*

            My prior two vets spoiled me. The one before we moved this last time was shocked that I stopped to pay the bill on my way out the door after we had one dog put down.
            The vet back in KC was the best. They were affiliated with a groomer/daycare. I could drop both my dogs off in the morning and pick them up on the way home all fluffed and caught up on shots. I’d pay whomever had them at the end of the day, or they’d mail me a monthly statement to pay. They are also the only ones who sent flowers after we had to put a pet down.
            Now, I get my vaccinations from the feed store and only take my pets in if something major happens.

    5. Tassie Tiger*

      Mmm…I think if I were in her position, I wouldn’t want to discuss it further either. She was given an explanation, and now she’s processing the harsh way the explanation was delivered. Yes, it’s her job to take that feedback, but…there’s no real need to rehash it, I don’t think.

    6. nep*

      You did nothing wrong. Coworker made a whopper of a mistake interrupting during a euthanasia. I hope coworker will chill out. Anyway you don’t owe her any explanation or anything at all.

    7. Max from St. Mary's*

      The only reason for interrupting that procedure is to say there’s a fire and the building is being evacuated.

      Your reaction was perfectly reasonable. That said, as a pet owner who’s had to have two euthanized, I don’t think that anyone who thinks walking in during that time should be working at a veterinary hospital–they are either witless or lack empathy, and would be better at a job in a different surroundings.

    8. SpaceNovice*

      Her reaction is NOT normal. She’s not even processing what she did wrong, and she’s acting like a child. I would have been mad at first but then DIED of embarrassment and apologized myself after realizing what I did. That’s the normal reaction.

      You’ll need to let your boss know so they can talk to her and let her know it wasn’t okay. Also, maybe consider writing up a policy/reminder of how to treat customers when they have to euthanize their pets and have a sensitivity training meeting regarding this. Her barging into a customer like that could cause a lot of extra heartache already on the one of the worst days of their lives; it’s also potentially something that could destroy the reputation of your practice.

      Also, if she acts like that after being corrected from something people might consider an offense worthy of an immediate firing, how ELSE is she mistreating people? If it’s a one-off, that’s probably correctable. If this is a pattern of behavior, it either needs to be corrected or she needs to find an office where there’s less of a need for empathy.

  185. Accounting Assistant - pay?*

    On a whim, I applied for a very part time (<10 hrs/week) remote accounting assistant position with a company that does bookkeeping and payroll for small businesses. The pay was listed as DOE and they are advertising it as an independent contractor position (I would invoice them for services monthly), so no bens/would be responsible for my own taxes.

    Glassdoor lists "accounting assistant" at ~$18/hr for W-2 employees but obviously that encompasses a range of about $11-25/hr. Thoughts?

  186. When it rains...*

    Is it weird to chop my hair short during the week between a first and second interview? My hair appointment was made before the interviews were set up and it just worked out that way. I have long hair that I’ve been straightening through the winter. For spring, I wanted to cut it to my shoulders and go back to my natural curls.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I would bet they don’t notice, unless your hair was especially noteworthy before. For example, several of our interviewers commented on a recent male candidate’s long hair and 5 o’clock shadow, so if he came in with a short cut and shave, I would probably notice. Around that same time, we interviewed a female candidate and I know her hair was above shoulder length, but I can’t recall if it was an above-the-ear type of cut or a bob or something else.

      1. When it rains...*

        I usually get a lot of comments when I go from straight to curly or curly to straight, i guess because my curls are very curly. And I was planning to chop about 4 inches off.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          If you thought it was going to be a distracting topic, could you get the cut and just wear it straight that day? (I realize the answer may be no depending on the cut.)

          I am envious that you can wear it curly, though, and would totally do that once you start somewhere new. I have misbehaving curly hair myself. It’s the type that is fairly curly underneath but only slightly wavy on the top layer. If I go with unstraightened, it can either look like fabulous beachy waves or a bird’s nest, and you never know which until it dries. The two times I have worn it curly at work, I got comments ranging from “I love your hair” to “doing something ‘different’ today”?

          1. When it rains...*

            It’s all about the cut. I always hated my curls until I found a hairdresser that specializes in curly cuts… they cut it dry to work with the natural texture. It’s life changing! I only straighten it during th winter because I can blow it out and don’t have to wash it again for a few days…. but after a few months I can’t wait to go curly again.

    3. Seriously?*

      I don’t think it is weird. You aren’t talking about an unconventional haircut so I doubt it will raise any eyebrows.

    4. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Both styles sound “long” to me so I probably wouldn’t even notice. Also people change up the texture all the time so I wouldn’t notice straight hair at one interview and curly at the next. Go for it!

  187. Librarian Ish*

    We had the worst sexual harassment training this week. The facilitator’s tactic was to say things like “Harassment! Don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it.” Super effective.

    Also, she tried to explain terms like gender, cis, trans, etc., and ended up being horribly offensive. Like, using a transperson’s dead name/incorrect pronouns, talking about transitioning like that’s the point where one “changes to a man”, etc. She also frequently referred to “the transgenders”.

    Deep sigh.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Was the facilitator someone internal who was tasked with putting this training together or from an external agency?

      Either way, I think that you should provide feedback (including links to information about the appropriate way to address said topics if possible) to whoever is over that person.

    3. beanie beans*

      Oy.

      We had sexual harassment training a couple of weeks ago, and it sucked because a lot of my coworkers suck. They asked questions like “What if I don’t care if people are offended by what I say?” and “What if I’m offended that women are overly sensitive?”

      I gotta get outta this job.

  188. Trying to remain polite*

    I’m applying to a position that requires two letters of reference. I got two people to agree to write them, and one was written and sent almost immediately. That was about two weeks ago.

    I asked for the second letter at the same time and it’s been like pulling teeth. I had to follow up to get an agreement to write it, then a second time to get an assurance that it was coming within a day or two. I’m hesitant to follow up a third time in case it comes off as pushy, but I’m also worried that I’ll miss my window with this position.

    For added context, I have to go through the assistant to this letter writer; based on the person’s position it’s not practical to contact them directly.

    Any ideas? Are my time expectations unrealistic?

    1. When it rains...*

      Maybe they are too busy or maybe they aren’t comfortable writers. Why don’t you offer to write a first draft, which your reference will edit and sign?

    2. CatCat*

      Does the second letter writer know the time frame? Was that clear? Is it coming up soon? I think that would be worth alerting the person to the time frame if it was unknown to them.

      If it is known though or your gut is just telling you the person is going to flake out, I’d seek another letter writer and not rely on the one who does not seem to be following through with the commitment. If they end up writing the letter, great, so you got three letters. If they don’t write it though, you’re still covered.

  189. MsMaryMary*

    I think most of the people who read this site regularly know this already, but please be prepared with questions to ask when you’re interviewing! I interviewed two candidates today, and one had one question and the other had no questions at all. It was the second round of interviews for both candidates, so I suspect thay asked questions in the first round and felt like they shouldn’t repeat the same questions.

    I am here to say you CAN ask the same question of multiple interviewers. You should! Of course, there are some questions where once is enough: What is the dress code? Who would I report to? Is the office open concept, cubes, or offices? And questions that have a time and a place, like salary, benefits. But questions on what the position is like, Alison’s Magic Question, and company culture are great to ask of multiple people. You’ll likely get different answers. Sometimes it makes sense that, say, your role would interact differently with a peer than a manager. But if people give you contradictory answers on why the position is open or the company culture, that’s a red flag.

    1. k.k*

      That’s a really good point! I usually don’t ask the same questions because in my head I’m thinking, “I’ve already got an answer to this, why waste time just for the sake of asking questions?” I’ll have to remember that it’s a good way to suss out what the place is really like.

  190. Red Reader*

    Leaving at 3am for a combination vacation/work conference. At Disneyworld. (I love Disneyworld, so I’m pretty stoked.) but I am also in the last three weeks of my last semester of grad school, working on final projects for two different masters degrees. And I have no kitchen because it’s being remodeled. *kermit flail*

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Sending good vibes your way – especially about that kitchen remodel! I just remodeled mine and got back to functioning a week ago, after 3 months of being unable to cook or wash anything. Boiled potatoes I made myself never tasted so good!

      1. Red Reader*

        Haha, it’s the washing that’s the big problem. My stove/oven and microwave and fridge are all still there, I just don’t have any water hookup in my kitchen :-P

  191. Rick*

    Kind of an open ended question, but I’m looking for general advice.

    My problem is that I have a hard time speaking up to my bosses in general. I’m very self assured in interviews, but the dynamic changes once I’m on the job: whenever I have a question, I start worrying about whether I’m wasting my boss’ time, or if they’ll think my question is extremely obvious and wonder whether I’m actually qualified for the job.

    This stems back from two bad jobs I had in a row: at the first one, a guy who didn’t like me got promoted to being my manager, and one of the things he would do to antagonize me is write me up whenever I had a question, sometimes making me stand up in meetings to tell everyone “I’ve been here for three years, and I still don’t know X.” At the job after that, my boss had anger management issues. He’d ignore emails or phone calls, and when something wasn’t done the way he wanted, he would blow up and send out a department wide email complaining you’re an underperformer and he was disappointed in you.

    So I guess there are two questions here:

    1. How do you assess crappy managers in interviews?
    2. How can I manage this fear? I’m alright in the interview, but when I need to ask the person responsible for my paychecks something, I freeze up and worry that it’ll be a stupid question or they’ll blow up about it.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I’m sorry you had two such horrible bosses! That just sounds awful.

      1. I assess them by how they talk about things – concrete vs wishy-washy. Do she answer the question asked, or does she ramble and go off on tangents? Does she seem like she’s actually listening to me, or just waiting for me to finish talking? When I ask about challenges the job or the department face, does she seem nervous and give a lot of jargony answers, or is she honest and straightforward?

      2. I would remind myself that you had two abusive bosses. You are not the problem. And it will take time to get over the fear – just keep in mind positive interactions with your new supervisor, or if you are still job hunting, tell yourself that most bosses won’t act that way.

      I can’t overstate enough how important it is to give yourself time to conquer the fear – I beat myself up for not getting over things IMMEDIATELY, but you have to recondition yourself, and that’s okay.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      For #2, you might want to consider some brief therapy for coping strategies that will help you move forward. It is hard to move past a toxic workplace.

  192. ASJ*

    There’s a local conference that happens every year here, and part of that is a “gala” at night. The tickets for my office are usually spoken for long beforehand, as they are this year – but my manager just asked me if I wanted to attend. It’s next Thursday and I felt a little uncomfortable with the short notice – also, as an admin assistant, I don’t usually attend these types of events (I am very much not a social person). Also, I think this “gala” is a fairly fancy thing. My manager said it wasn’t and that you see a range of attire, but I know that people in my office dressed up pretty nice the past two years (so, dress, fancy heels, etc…) and I have no appropriate clothing and no budget to buy them.

    So I lied and told her I couldn’t because that was my mother’s birthday and we were celebrating it that night, even though my mom’s birthday was a week ago. She seemed to be okay with it but it left me feeling unsettled. Thoughts?

    1. JeanB in NC*

      One of the things I’ve seen mentioned over & over here is that “no” is a complete sentence. You don’t have to come up with excuses, you can just say that you’re not able to do that but that you hope it goes well. I’ve taken this advice in my own personal life and it’s oddly freeing.

    2. Seriously?*

      I think you are overthinking it. Your manager offered you something that sounds like is generally considered a treat by people in your office. You weren’t interested and turned it down. I doubt your manager has thought about it all since then.

    3. k.k*

      I probably would have done the same thing. These types of events tend to be very network/mingle-y. Your manager probably thought they were being nice offering, for some types of people going to that event would be a fun treat. If you’re like me, it’s a nightmare. It’s perfectly acceptable to have other plans that night, so I’m sure your boss didn’t give your response a second thought.

  193. JeanB in NC*

    I am a bookkeeper at a small private school and I’m doing a lesson for our 7th & 8th graders on accounting & finance. Does anyone know of any resources where I could get templates to use for a checking account? I kind of want them to go through recording a month of money in & out, and finish up with a bank rec. I’ve found a couple of resources but they don’t have exactly what I’m looking for.

    1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      That’s so awesome! I think teaching personal finance is SOOOO important for the next generation!

      Here’s a link to a printable check register: https://www.printablepaper.net/preview/CheckRegister

      But really, most people don’t do this by hand anymore, so you could easily teach them how to use Excel for something like this (bonus points for incorporating technology in your lesson).

      1. JeanB in NC*

        Thank you! That site is exactly what I wanted. I will be showing them how to set up a worksheet in Excel also, but sometimes it’s easier to see why and how something works before you try to set up a spreadsheet. It’s a learning process for us both!

  194. Thelastgoodname*

    More frustrating news to report today – my phone interview this afternoon was a disaster, but I came away from it feeling like I dodged a bullet. I’m at my wit’s end with my current job, though — today I was informed that my favorite database at work is likely to be permanently decommissioned because there was a significant malware threat and there are too many vulnerabilities. The alternative is to use an application that was developed in 1958 (is it evident that I work in a government role yet?) My productivity is likely to decrease sharply as a result, simply because the banned database allowed me to check multiple lines of accounting at once for any changes, and using the other one is a much more time-consuming process because each line has to be checked one at a time. There are other issues that make the alternative database much less user-friendly. I am about ready to tell my supervisor that I would like to be assigned to a different role, but I have no idea how she’d take the news (I haven’t received feedback from her in months, which is a different story altogether).

    My plan therefore is to spend the weekend filling out applications. Hope other people have a more fun weekend in store than I do. I hate feeling like this – this is my first post-graduation job and I was hoping things would be going a little more smoothly for me at this point.

    1. Thelastgoodname*

      I should mention that this is a “straw that broke the camel’s back” kind of thing, and I have other reasons for wanting to leave.

    2. KR*

      This is crazy – there are multiple NEW varieties of accounting software that are specifically meant for government applications. Like, just came out new.

      So sorry.

    3. Windchime*

      1958?! Are you going to have to learn to use a punch-card machine in order to do your work? That’s like……yikes.

  195. Me--Blargh*

    I have an in-person interview next Thursday in St. Louis. It’s an admin job with an environmental engineering firm that pays the same as what Exjob paid ($16-18). Well it’s not actually StL proper; it’s not too far from where my mum lives. The principal told me he lives near there too so the commute is easy if I were staying with Mum. I already talked to one of the principals on the phone, and he seemed to understand my limitations–it doesn’t have any math and I would be doing a lot of reports. But I’m REALLY conflicted about this because:

    1. It’s still just an admin job, and it appears I’d be the ONLY admin. There’s a ton of work and I’d still be the damn receptionist (although he did say their phones were not that busy).

    2. As enumerated on their website, the benefits are absolutely dismal. One week of vacation the first year (FFS). I don’t know if that’s after a year (at 2-5 you get two weeks). 60/40 split on healthcare and dental (separately). No vision. Healthcare alone would cost me about $150-200 a month. I NEED dental and vision. This bit is almost a total deal breaker and I didn’t see it until after I applied. :( He said of the split, “Well we’ve been doing it that way since we began,” which sent up a red flag to me. Are they inflexible? Would they be so about other things? These benefits are in no way competitive. Are they looking for someone who will be faaamily and never leave? The person I’d be replacing is leaving on the 13th after six months, he said because she got something closer to family and doesn’t want to commute.

    3. I would learn a ton about environmental engineering, or so he said — and there are companies who hire tech writers/editors for that — but in order to get out of admin work I’d have to leave. It would not help me in any way to break out of this pigeonhole I’m already in.

    4. I don’t think I’d learn much else. It’s a combination of the job I did at Exjob and stuff I did as admin for an environmental remediation company (whom they know) in 2003. So nothing new, really. Except it’s two companies together so it’s kind of twice the shit.

    5. My cost of living would go up so I doubt I could save much or pay for courses to learn things (software, etc.).

    6. I don’t think I can sell a shitty house and move in a month. What was I thinking? I can’t even have a garage sale because it won’t stop snowing/raining.

    7. I would have to start all over with a barely adequate income for the area. And the job situation over there isn’t that much better than the one here.

    8. I don’t WANT to live in St. Louis. I don’t want to be in this state anymore. It’s getting more horrible by the minute.

    9. I don’t want to live with my mum. I love her but there are good reasons for this.

    On the bright side:
    1. It would get me out of here, where all the jobs pay $8-11 an hour.

    2. There is marginally more fun stuff to do over there than here (and StL is getting an Alamo Drafthouse yay, but it will be way up on the north side, boo), assuming I could afford any of it. :P

    3. My neighbor would like to buy my house so she can expand her property.

    4. I can’t think of anything else good, tbh.

    Whyyyyyyy tho why can’t I catch something better do I suck that much? If this job were here, I could at least build my account back up again. But nooooooo. I’m not scared of making a move or taking a risk; I’m scared of making the wrong move and getting stuck again because I can’t afford to leave. I wanted to move for something better, not the exact same thing. I feel like this isn’t any better.

    I’ve thought and thought and I’m feeling really anxious about it. People are urging me to do it, which is even worse, because whenever I listen to people tell me what I should do, I end up regretting it. But I have to do something. I know there are no easy answers but I need one dammit!

    2. neverjaunty*

      All of this sucks. I’ll be the “people telling you to…” saying NOT to take this job, because yes, the benefits are not what you need. And “we’ve always done it this way” + trying to tell you that you’ll learn lots about engineering as an admin?

    3. KR*

      Okay so being unemployed and not getting a paycheck makes my mental health go wonky. So if I were you I would take the job. But you know you better than anyone else.

      Do you want to sell your house? Could this be a chance for you to work like crazy for a year or two to save up enough to move where you want? It’s easier to get a job when you have a job – would this clear up an employment gap on your resume? Would this make it easier for you to get another job when the time comes? If you really don’t want to do it I don’t want you to do it. I worry about you sometimes reading through the open threads because I know you’ve been out of work a while, but if you’re going to seriously regret this then don’t do it. If you are really worried about your employment situation and think you could use this as a stepping stone to move, then I would encourage you to do it.

      Good luck with your decision.

    4. Kiwi*

      I think if I were you I’d look on everything as temporary at the moment. Not “do I want to do this job for years and years” but “can I live with this job for a year, while renting out my house, living with Mum to save money, and keeping on job hunting?”

      And don’t beat yourself up trying to make the “good” choice. It doesn’t sound like there is one, so maybe focus on getting a step closer to having good choices?

      1. Trixie*

        This. My sister sold her house in a not so great sort of okay neighborhood just in time before market tightened up again. Sometimes she regrets the lost of space but we remind how lucky she was it sold when it did. Otherwise, that things would have been such a weight on her shoulders.
        I have stayed with my mom a couple times times or so now when transitioning. I think of it as temporary until I can find a good situation I can afford and go from there. Even the job I have now, it’s paid my bills/debt the last couple years. It may not lead to future role in exact same field but certainly actively employed with decent company. Like you said, I aim to focus on the steps that get me close to having better selection of options.

      2. Me--Blargh*

        I couldn’t rent this house. It’s not in good enough shape to rent–the bathroom is awful and I have no money to fix it.

    5. Book Lover*

      I think you should at least interview. Maybe at that point it will be obvious that it isn’t a good idea, or will seem like a better option for you.

      I think it is easier to find a job when you have a job, usually, as long as the hours are not ridiculous and everyone is sane.

      You have mentioned being underwater on you house (maybe?) or needing to fix it up before selling. If you have a neighbor wanting to buy and can get away from a commitment on a home in an area you don’t want to stay, I would.

      Money is better than no money, so I think any pay is better than no job. And bad benefits are better than no benefits.

      But in the end, you need to go and interview and see what you think. Maybe it will be an easy decision in the end.

      1. acmx*

        I agree with Book Lover. I’d at least go on the interview.

        Your neighbor wanting to buy your property is a good thing. You won’t have to list your house (you should get an attorney though), won’t have people come through the house.

        Again, money is better than no money and it’s easier to find a job while employed. But you’ll have to see if the pay after accounting for health/dental is sustainable for you.

        Good luck with your decision!

        1. Me--Blargh*

          I have no money for an attorney. I have nothing left and will soon have a big tax penalty from taking money out of my money market account on which to live. Neighbor did recommend the realtor she used when she bought her property; if I can get the name from her that might be worth looking at.

          I really cannot afford to move, either. I would have to put stuff in storage and literally live in my mum’s basement for a little while, and that is going to be MISERABLE. Oh what was I thinking? This is impossible.

          1. Kiwi*

            It doesn’t sound great and maybe it is impossible, but you also sound like you’re zooming right in on the negatives.

            How about trying a mental exercise, just as an exercise? Imagine you’ve got the job (eeek!) and have to make the move work as well as possible. Then work out what that “as well as possible” looks like. Maybe you could leave your house just sitting there for a few months till you can afford an attorney, and camp in your Mum’s basement. Maybe you could spend your first spare cash on paint and second-hand furniture and make the basement nice. And so on. Brainstorm with a friend if you can’t come up with enough ideas yourself.

            Then once you’ve got that as-rosy-as-possible-but-still-feasible picture good and clear, then see whether it looks better to take the job or worse. If it still looks worse, you know not to take it. But at least you’re working from better data that way.

            And whichever way you decide, good luck!!

            1. Me--Blargh*

              My mum’s basement is already finished–it’s nicer than my house is. My house is a piece of crap because I’ve never had enough money to make it better.

              I’m pissed off because I did not want to go to all the trouble and expense of moving for another admin job. If I have to pay for insurance and dental (no vision!) along with higher rent, it will be the same as doing a stupid admin job here for $10 an hour–no extra to put away, and the jobs over there are the same as they are here. I feel like I should never have answered the job ad, like I stupidly walked into quicksand.

              I’ll go talk to them but but this just feels like a trap.

              1. AnotherAlison*

                ” it will be the same as doing a stupid admin job here for $10 an hour” and “the jobs over there are the same as they are here.”

                You know, I don’t think that is really true. It may financially be a $/hr break-even with a job down there, right now. But, you may be able to move into a job with better pay and benefits in STL, and I’m not sure that will ever be true down there. Of the handful of friends I have in your current city, I’ve never seen one of them really advance in their career, in over 20 years. Everyone just seems to keep doing the same thing and getting by. If you can get out of your house, that’s one less thing tying you down. If a new, good opportunity somewhere else in the country comes up, you have one less thing blocking you from that. I definitely don’t know the STL job market, but the KC job market has a lot more opportunities than your city. I would think STL is more comparable to KC than your city, industry-wise. (The one thing I’ll say about KC, though, is people will go out of their way to help out others, and I’m not sure that’s true in STL. I’ve seen a “foot in the door” lead to fairly high-level careers for some of my friends and family in KC.)

                I agree with just going to talk to them and then judging how you feel. Good luck.

  196. YRH*

    My husband and I are both in the early stages of interviewing with the same company. These aren’t for posted positions and the interviews have been more of informal discussions to see if we’re the right fit. This type of hiring for this company can take more than a year. The positions are doing different work in different departments. At what point should we disclose that we’re biyh talking to them.

  197. stitchinthyme*

    When considering a job offer, how do you distinguish between deciding to stay at your current job because you’d feel guilty about screwing your coworkers by leaving vs. because you actually want to stay?

    Basically, my husband has not been looking for a job, but was recruited by a former colleague he likes and respects. He interviewed at the guy’s company yesterday and got a job offer in the afternoon. The salary is pretty close to what he makes now.

    My husband goes back and forth between loving and hating his job — he’s a sysadmin, and so sometimes it can be very rewarding and sometimes very frustrating (especially when he’s on call and gets paged at odd hours). He’s very well liked and respected at work, and he’s often the guy everyone goes to when they have a problem they can’t figure out. He likes his managers and most of his coworkers.

    The new company is largely comprised of people he has worked with in the past, knows well, and likes. He thinks he would enjoy working there. But he’s also the type of guy who has major issues with guilt — he hates to feel like he’s letting anyone down, and he feels like he’d be doing that to his current coworkers if he left.

    Full disclosure: his job is just about the only thing we ever argue about; I hate when he’s on call because he’s had to veto plans I’ve wanted to make for us because he can’t be too far from a laptop and an internet connection. The new job would have some on-call, but less frequently, and the new company has a policy that if they get more than one after-hours page in a week, they have an all-hands meeting to discuss what went wrong and how to fix it. His current management does make some effort to mitigate this sort of problem, and there are times when he’s on call all week and never gets paged, but there are still occasional weeks where it seems like it’s happening every night.

    So obviously, I personally would not mind at all if he changed jobs, but for that reason I don’t want to pressure him, because I want him to be happy and I don’t want him to resent me if he jumps ship and hates it. I did mention what Alison has often said here: that no one is indispensable, people leaving is part of the cost of doing business, and his current coworkers would get along without him if he left. I advised him to try and consider only whether he’d like to work at the new company, not how his current coworkers would deal with his departure, and he wants to do that, but given his nature, he finds the two difficult to separate.

    Any other words of wisdom I can pass on?

    1. Seriously?*

      If he is happy at his current job and isn’t getting a significant pay bump at the new place, I’m not sure that I would take the new job. Leaving won’t screw over his coworkers. He is replaceable so he really shouldn’t worry about that part of it. Really the only reason he should leave is if being on call bothers him enough. It sounds like that might not be the case. He could try to negotiate for higher pay at the new place though which might make the switch more appealing.

      1. zora*

        I disagree, I think the same pay but being on-call less is a significant difference. I would definitely take the new job if it was me.

        1. Anony*

          I agree that can be a significant factor, but only if it actually bothers him. If he doesn’t mind then staying with what is known can be more appealing than rolling the dice with a new job.

          1. stitchinthyme*

            The on-call does bother him, and he’s also getting pretty close to burning out from the job in general — it’s stressful even just during regular office hours.

            We talked more about it last night, and he’s still not sure what he wants to do. At one point he was talking about the new place as if he’s decided to take the offer, but he hasn’t completely decided yet. He does have a few concerns about the workload and office environment, so since he knows some people who work there, he plans to contact them and see what working there is like from a non-management perspective. He may also talk to his current boss about if there’s anything that can be done to mitigate the issues he’s having where he is, but he doesn’t think his boss will be able to do much since a lot of the problems are beyond his control. And he’ll also see about negotiating on the salary.

            Even if he doesn’t end up taking this, it may force him to finally confront the fact that his current job has him stressed to the max, and maybe start looking elsewhere.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Perhaps your husband could reframe it in his mind: If the company has set things up so that the team would be in a serious bind if he left, that is a failure on management’s part. They should be working crosstraining into the process so that it’s not a catastrophe if one person quits (or has a health crisis, or whatever), so that someone leaving is a minor hiccup, not a major inconvenience for everyone.

      Maybe thinking of it that way would help him understand that he doesn’t need to feel personally guilty for anything that happens after he’s gone.

  198. Lorna Jean*

    So not only did a colleague decide to call me out in a group email over an on-going issue that he’s not involved in, he CALLED ME THE WRONG NAME. Think Ellen instead of Ella. He was already on my sh*!list for mansplaining exactly which neighborhood I actually live in (he was wrong) when we first met.

    1. zora*

      This is one of those times when I wish I had the guts to actually respond to him and say “Hey, if you’re going to sh*ttalk me in front of the entire company, I’d appreciate it if you got my name right. It’s ELLA.”

    3. Windchime*

      I used to work with someone who kept spelling my name wrong in emails. Let’s say my name is “Mari” and he kept spelling it “Marie”. I kept nicely correcting him but it continued. Finally, one day he sent out an email that listed out tasks that the team was going to do and one line said, “And Marie will do task X.” I replied, “Oh, thank goodness! I thought I was going to have to do that but I’m glad to hear that Marie will be doing it instead.” It did get better after that.

  199. Drama Llama*

    I have a job applicant who refuses to accept she was declined. She applied early this year. I have sent her multiple decline emails telling her straight forward that her application was rejected and we will not hire her. Each time she responds a few weeks later saying she is “confused”. She keeps repeating we talked on the phone before and argues about why she will be great for the job. In her last email she said she received a decline email but it must be sent to her by mistake. I thought of ignoring her but don’t want her to turn up at our office – she somehow tracked down my unlisted cellphone number and has called me multiple times. So I don’t want to deal with a potential lunatic showing up at work to argue with me about why she’s a great fit for the job. What to do?

    1. Temperance*

      I would stop responding to her, and would let your receptionist/building security know that you have a wacko who might show up.

    2. Snark*

      I’d send a really strongly, unambiguously worded letter to the effect of, “There is no mistake, your application was rejected. We will not consider you as an applicant for any open position moving foward due to your repeated harassing contacts. Do not contact me again for any reason.” And then block her contacts, let your security know this person is a potential issue, and do not engage her again.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        This plus documenting all of the communication with her in case you need to pursue a restraining order if she continues to contact you.

    3. Seriously?*

      I would block her phone number (!) and send one last e-mail saying that there was no mistake and you will not be hiring her. If you have not looped in your boss, you should and inform security not to let her in if she shows up.

    4. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Wow, that is pretty gutsy. I’d do what the others are suggesting – send her one last “cease and desist” type email, copy your superiors, and let security or HR know what is going on.

    5. SoCalHR*

      wow. that is crazy. like literally. reminds me of a guy I’ve dated (also makes me think what she must be like in/at the end of a relationship).

      You could also block her email and phone number (rather than just ignore her). But I agree with you that it she may try to show up at the office (and agree with Temperance about putting her on some sort of security watch list).

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I would stop responding to her emails, block her number, and let everyone in your office know not to respond to her or let her in the office. You’ve been quite clear she’s rejected. You don’t need to communicate anything further to her.

    8. Drama Llama*

      We have no security as it’s a small office. And my boss is hardly in. I don’t want to piss her off with a curt STOP CONTACTING ME email, in case she’s cray cray.

      1. NB*

        Then you’re going to have to put up with this carrying on indefinitely. Is this something you are prepared to do?

        If you really are too afraid to handle it, just stop replying. Don’t take her calls, and ignore her. Chances are if she’s going to get upset by a clear and firm no, she’s going to get upset by being ignored too though. You’d be much better off being clear and direct, documenting everything, and looping the boss in on this (phone call or email is fine, the boss doesn’t have to be physically present).

      2. Anony*

        Even if your boss is hardly in you should let them know this is going on. They may be aware of resources that can help or at the very least you have more documentation of the problem.

  200. blergarg*

    Are any of you like this?

    I’m entrepreneurial. I’m smart, hard working, and driven by creativity. But when I work in an environment where I’m not leading, I tend to take a back seat and let other folks take the lead. Sometimes I don’t have opinions on issues that come up, sometimes people just say things before I can, sometimes I make occasional but valuable contributions.

    This is really weird for me because I feel like I’m not living up to my potential, while also feeling like I’m not good enough. Does anyone relate to this? Honest thoughts would be super appreciated.

    1. Manders*

      I relate to that a lot. I’ve got a lot of energy and drive, but a lot of that goes into my own side projects, so I’m not always the highest energy person in the room at work.

      I also realized a little while back that I really prefer to be in environments where I’m the least experienced person in the room so I can learn and grow professionally–it’s doing awesome things for my career, but it does mean I don’t always have as much to contribute as my more knowledgeable colleagues. Are you finding yourself in that kind of situation a lot?

      Another thing: I was a very high achiever in school, and it took some time to adjust to the working world’s pace of projects and recognition for those projects. If you find yourself feeling like you’re not living up to your potential, maybe you were also under the same kind of pressure as a student?

      1. blergarg*

        That’s so interesting. I was a high achieving student, and went to a very competitive school.

        And yes, I’ve realized I’m learning *so* much about cultural competency and some soft skills at my current job. My work isn’t fulfilling at all, though.

        I haven’t been doing a lot on the side, lately, which is probably why I feel at a loss.

        Do you have any recommendations, suggestions, advice? Is it enough for you to have great after-work projects, and is there a reason why you wouldn’t pursue them full time?

        1. Manders*

          When you say your work isn’t fulfilling, do you mean you don’t love what you do day to day, or do you mean you don’t care about the goals you’re working toward? Because I don’t go into work psyched about my daily tasks (staring at spreadsheets, mostly) but I do feel good about hitting quantifiable goals.

          The reason I’m putting so much time into my after-work projects is because my dream job (writing fiction full-time) is very, very difficult to get into. I’d love to pursue that full-time someday, but I also like having enough food to eat and a roof over my head, so my day job is an acceptable compromise.

          1. blergarg*

            Both, I think. I’m ready for a bigger challenge, and feel a little checked out of the work I’m doing. There isn’t really any room for growth for the next 1-2 years, and I can’t imagine staying that long.

            And that makes a lot of sense! I’m glad you’re pursuing that after work. I guess I’m looking for fulfillment at work, and I’m wondering how to get that for myself. Is it leaving this job and applying for higher up work? Is it getting into entrep mode and branching out to do my own thing? Not really sure.

  201. Snark*

    I’m in the market for a new laptop, for work and personal use. Is there a national chain that offers comparable values to Amazon, but where I can just go and get the thing and return it if I need to, without dealing with third party sellers and shipping and stuff?

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      If it’s for work, you may be able to write it off on your taxes. I know that wasn’t what you were asking exactly, but I just thought of that because you said “comparable values to Amazon.”

    4. zora*

      Not fully national, but I’ve always had great experiences with Fry’s electronics. Customer service has always been very helpful, more so than the big national ones. But caveat: I haven’t bought computers from them, only other electronics.

  202. Queen Padme Amidala*

    I need advice from someone other than my parents.
    I am a single female veteran with very protective, overbearing parents, not controlling just concerned for my well being. I was military for 10 years and was gone pretty much the whole time but now that I’m out, I have moved back to my hometown , finished college and I work 2 jobs to support myself and maintain my independence. I have an opportunity for a state government job that is and hour away that I could really make a career out of but starting salary is barely more than what I make now while working 2 jobs. Currently I am the only customer support at my main job and not bragging but I love the work and I am really great at what I do. So much so they want to add tech support to my job description but it does not come with a raise even though it will save them from having to hire someone else full time. There is no room to get promoted at my current place because I am the most junior person since everyone has been here 10+ years. My problem is should I stay where I am, working 65 hours a week with no days off, be with family which I never got to do in the military, and stay in a job I love but will never be able to advance career wise or take the new job similar to what I did in the military but in a management position and be able to advance, work 40 hours a week with days off to be with family but the drive is a 5 times longer and pay is essentially the same to what I make now with both jobs? My parents want me to stay obviously since I was gone for so long and they relied on me a lot since I moved back so they don’t want me to move again. Does it make more sense to stay or go? The new job will also allow me to travel which is one thing I greatly miss about being military.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      To me, the new job sounds better. If you can make the same money whilst working 40 hours instead of 65, and having more travel and career growth…I’d do it. Those are things I value, and it’s totally okay to have other priorities, so just spend some time thinking about what you value and how it will contribute to your happiness long term.

      I have overprotective parents as well, though I was never in the military or spent significant amounts of time away from home. I have had to set a lot of boundaries in place as I age, though. But as we age, my parents are hinting that they want more and more of my time and energy, which I can’t really give them right now (have a toddler, a baby on the way, full time career). I enjoy being with them, and helping where I can, but historically they have taken advantage of me because I’m the “good child” who will do what they say (hence boundaries!).

      Also I am bothered by the “let’s add duties but not pay or promote you in any way” thing – I was in a similar situation in my last job, and they had nowhere for me to go, so I burned out. I got really resentful and my work ethic plummeted. It doesn’t happen to everyone but it’s something to consider.

      So to take a piece from Cap Awkward – is your current situation (job and family) sustainable for 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? How would you feel knowing it was going to be the same for the next 10 years?

    2. Little Bean*

      Obviously this depends on what your priorities are and what factors are most important to you. If it were me though, I’d take the new job. Worked 25 hours less a week and making the same salary sounds like pretty good. Plus you’d also have more career options and be able to travel more? I get that long drives to see family are not ideal, but you could always plan to move back in the future once you have all that great job experience to help you find your next job.

    3. Temperance*

      Take the government job. Working 65 hours/week vs. working 40 hours/week is HUGE. The opportunities for advancement make this a no-brainer, IMO.

      Your parents are being selfish here, and wrong. You’re a veteran! You’re obviously smart and strong.

    4. OtterB*

      The new job is an hour away? That is … really not very far. It seems to leave lots of time for seeing your family since you’ll be working fewer hours, plus better working conditions.

    5. tab*

      Also female veteran here. Take the new job! You deserve to have a career and life away from your parents. You can visit them on weekends, and they can come visit you. And thanks for your service!

    6. KR*

      Please please take the job! I know military parents in general tend to be very clingy and overprotective. Their children put on the uniform and all of a sudden they’re never going to be happy unless they live locally. Your parents sound even more overprotective. I think you will be happier in that new job because you will be working less, and even though you’ll be farther away from your parents it will be easier to maintain your independence that way.

  203. Book Badger*

    Could I get a quick reality check?

    I work in a legal clinic. Clinic is basically like Baby’s First Law Firm – you do projects under the supervision of a professor, with all the same stipulations as a real law firm, except that things are more informal because you are not paid and are taking a class. Sort of like student teaching or medical residency. There are several clinics run out of the same office and set of computer banks. They do not interact with each other except under unusual circumstances, and are run according to how each supervising professor feels they should be run. So my clinic, Teapot Law, is deliberately designed to be a small, close-knit group that mostly does research work and advocacy, while other clinics (for example, Coffee Mug Law) are run with each student having their own personal client and litigating their cases start to finish. I don’t know how things are in Coffee Mug Law, but since we Teapot Lawyers spend so much time together (including after hours and weekends) working on projects with tight deadlines, we’re very close and talk a lot to each other about non-work things in the office.

    “Jane,” someone from Coffee Mug Law, has twice now interrupted conversations between those of us from Teapot Law to tell us that “this is not social hour and could you be quiet because some of us are actually working.” She says this in a very harsh voice out of nowhere (as in, there was no prior “hey, could you guys keep it down a bit” comment). The first time it happened, I was so embarrassed that I actually couldn’t talk at all for a good couple of minutes. The second time, I continued to speak with my partners, but much quieter and in shorter sentences. Two of my clinic partners have (independently, and without knowing that the other incident had occurred) said that “Jane” was incredibly rude for interrupting and saying what she said so bluntly.

    Was Jane being rude, or is this just a class of office cultures? I understand where Jane is coming from, honestly, but I’m not sure how I feel about the way she expressed her feelings.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Her phrasing sounds rude to me. She sounds like she was exasperated, but yeah, I think she could have started out with something a little friendlier.

    2. CM*

      Jane is rude. I have been a Coffee Mug Lawyer (also a Teapot Lawyer!) and it has nothing to do with culture. That said, if you’re chatting and it’s in the same area where Jane needs to be working, I think there’s no harm in moving your social conversation to a different area or keeping it down — you might say something like, “I think your tone is disrespectful, but we’ll move to the kitchen because we don’t want to disturb your work.” (Or whatever feels like something you would actually say and isn’t equally rude.) If you’re talking about work, though, you could just remind her that the nature of your work is more collaborative and you need to talk.

      1. Temperance*

        Or Jane can move her ass to a quiet spot if she needs quiet to work. If she’s the only complainer, it sounds like a Jane problem.

        I work at a law firm, and if people need quiet, they go into a conference room.

    3. Nacho*

      Jane might have been rude, but I work in a pretty informal office, and it can get SUPER annoying when my coworkers are chatting about their love life while I’m trying to work.

  204. NaoNao*

    Tips for getting better at attention to detail!
    I have a new part time job that requires a lot of counting, reconciling columns of digits, keeping track of things, etc. (Stock and merchandising, retail).
    I’m “okay” at that kind of stuff now but am very worried about somehow overlooking and missing stuff since most of my jobs weren’t attention to detail oriented and TPTB have said a few things about how they’re very relieved to have one person checking in and keeping track of all stock because now their inventory will always be on point!
    So I really feel I must be more than just “okay” at detail oriented work!

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I try to make sure I am not working too quickly. I typically work pretty fast, but if I need to be really detailed, I have to force myself to slow down. I remind myself it’s better to be slow and accurate than fast and wrong. I will practice steady, deep breathing while I’m working on a task, and softly talk out loud to myself to help me work through things and stay on track.

    2. Ashie*

      Eliminate distractions – when I need to focus I close my email and put my phone on do not disturb, and close my office door. Or if that’s not possible, at least put headphones in… research shows that the best music for concentration is familiar but has no words (I really like Spotify’s Instrumental Pop station). Also, try to arrange your day so that you’re not hungry and you’re as alert as possible (for me, that’s late afternoon).

  205. Startup Refugee*

    I am in an unpleasant situation where I may need a reference from a company I made a complaint about. I’m looking for advice on how to handle it.

    The company was an early stage startup (<10 people) I worked at last year. They wouldn't send me my W-2, so I had to go to the IRS. The owner of the company has anger issues, so I proactively had a friend pose as a hiring manager and do a reference call. The owner said that I cost the company tens of thousands of dollars and was let go. I'm not surprised by this but I'm still upset about it. I know that I can't give him as a reference, but I'm not sure what to do when asked for a reference from this company.

    I see a few options:

    1. Contact someone else at the startup and ask if they'd be willing to give me a good reference. This might be the best choice.
    2. Give them the full story: "I don't think the owner would give me an accurate reference, because the company wouldn't send me a W-2, so I had to get the IRS involved." I think this might work at midsize companies (i.e. not a bank or city/state government), but it feels risky. A nicer HR person may be willing to accept it.
    3. Refuse to give the owner's contact details. This would be risky.
    4. Make some sort of complaint, through a lawyer or through a government agency. I think this is the worst option, because there's no guarantee I'd win, and no reason the owner wouldn't go scorched earth on my reputation to get back at me. Also, EEOC would not cover this.
    5. Directly contact the owner and try to negotiate with him. This isn't a terrible idea but I doubt it would be useful. Also I'm worried about him trying to claim extortion if it fell through.

    1. CM*

      I would do #1 if there is somebody you trust. I think you might also do #2 at the same time if you suspect that you’re still getting a bad reference. I don’t think it’s that bad because that’s something the company clearly did wrong — it’s not a matter of interpretation or being a troublemaker if you needed a W-2 and couldn’t get one.

      I would not do #4 — I agree it’s the worst option and I’m a lawyer.

      1. Startup Refugee*

        Yeah, I think so. My contingency for if I can’t get someone else to vouch for me is #2 — explain that I didn’t get a W-2, had to go to the IRS to get the owner to give me one, and that’s soured the relationship. And offer to provide proof of employment.

        I can see suspicion being raised if the explanation is that I made a discrimination or retaliation claim against a former employee, but any midsize company is going to work with ADP or someone similar, making it super unlikely that this would ever happen again.

        It really sucks, though, that my career’s at risk because of a guy with a bad attitude.

        1. Startup Refugee*

          Side note: I was the only person at this company doing my job function, so I’ll also mention that. No one else can really vouch for the quality of my work.

      2. HRH The Duke of Coriander and Gomasio*

        #1 is the best. How long did you work there? If under 4 months I would consider leaving it off resume entirely.

      3. Startup Refugee*

        Yes, I agree. It’s a lot more cut and dry than a discrimination complaint (unfortunately, there are people who abuse those laws – I totally support anti discrimination laws, but there’s a lot more room to debate them vs. “the company didn’t send me W-2s,” plus the unfortunate connotations that “I made a discrimination complaint” carries). Since I’m applying to bigger companies, it also fits in with my pitch that I tried working at a startup, it wasn’t for me, and I’m looking for something bigger and more regulated now. Banks or other really big companies with very strict procedures may not accept it but I don’t know of any way to avoid that.

        Getting the law involved is only going to make the startup’s owner actively hate me, if they don’t already. There is no way I can prevent them from talking bad about me, and a C&D or lawsuit will only motivate them to do that. That doesn’t even account for the time and money it’ll take from me. But someone always suggests it so I included it. It’s not a “real” option to me.

  206. Student*

    Sometimes working for a highly bureaucratic company crosses over from frustrating to downright, Alice-in-Wonderland silly. This week was one of those times.

    I’ve worked here for a few years now. During that whole time, I’ve had a building Key to a little isolated shack where I do some of my research work. To get to the shack, you need the combination to the combo lock to a fence around it, plus this Key to get in the door.

    This week, the company changed their key policy. They were annoyed by the cost of re-keying when somebody loses a Key. Fair! They seem to have decided the best way to keep this expense low is to make it more painful for anyone to have a Key. Not so good.

    The policy stated I was no longer allowed to take my Key home with me – though it has lived on my key ring for years without incident. Since I can’t take the Key home, it needed to be locked up at work. I don’t have any place special to lock up a key – I live in a cubical. So I consulted my manager – what am I supposed to do to secure my Key?

    Manager, at first, responds with denial and disbelief. Followed shortly thereafter by despair and resignation. Tells me to lock my Key in my filing cabinet. I tell him that I will do so, but then I’ll be taking home the keys to the filing cabinet, plus I have no idea how many people have copies of keys to my ancient, hand-me-down filing cabinet. There’s no rule against taking filing cabinet keys home in the new policy. So I can carry the key to the Key, but not the Key itself.

    The real kicker, for me, is that this shack behind a combo-locked fence that my precious Key opens is filled with broken junk. Nothing in it has worked for about a year. I go there about once a year to try to get stuff working for a week, then it falls back into disrepair shortly thereafter. No money to get it fully operational. Safety systems are fried, too. It’d probably save us money over the long term if somebody did steal the whole lot.

  207. skepticanalyst*

    Does anyone have advice on how to manage myself in the middle of a manager transition?

    Some background: my department at work keeps shrinking so my manager is moving into another role and all of us will be managed by one person. This particular person and I do NOT get along very well in terms of their managing me. Their style does not suit my work style. In the past, when my supervisor has been out of office and New Manager fills in, I had several instances of pulling my hair out. Even if it was just for a day. I am not going to be able to stay under this particular manager for long without blowing up.

    I am looking for other jobs but I don’t want to leave my company (because it is awesome) and it may take a long time to find a different position. In the meantime I have to deal with New Manager. Any advice??????

  208. Amanda*

    I got a job offer for next May. It’s my first opportunity to break into my chosen field, and I don’t have much confidence in my ability to get another such opportunity but at the same time I just started my masters, so I’ll be much more marketable and a professor I asked about this thinks it’s a bad career move because I’ll be the only one in my specialty there as they’ve never needed someone with this specialty before, there are a lot of technology standards between both the US and Canada I’ll have to know very well. He says I’ll have no opportunity for mentoring (nobody to learn from) and no work-life balance. The location is also not ideal (it’s very rural, and I need access to health specialists – the nearest is an hour and a half drive from where I’d work – and I’d like to be able to be “out” without it being a huge issue for people after the normal gossip period dies down) I would have to move and put my masters on hold as well if I took this job.

    I told them that I’d accept the position via email, but now that I have talked to my proffessor I’m having second thoughts. Burning this bridge wouldn’t hurt me much professionally in the long term but I’d like to let them know early if I’m going to change my mind.

    Can someone help me decide which way to go on this?

    1. Jerry Vandesic*

      Assuming you meant May 2019, you have a year to possibly find another job and let them down softly. Don’t sweat it, but do keep looking for another job next May.

    2. Sunflower*

      Well, I guess it depends on the job market in your desired field. If it is hard to find a job or break in the field, I would go for the work experience, since you can do the Masters later. Sometimes professors know well about careers outside academia, but sometimes they don’t. Maybe talk to people who have finished the Masters and try to find out how they are doing?
      Oh, and why would your professor think that you would have a bad work-life balance?

    3. Lady Jay*

      Yes, I think that your professor has good advice.

      I’ve worked at jobs where I’m the only one qualified in my field, and even when people are warm and supportive, it leaves you feeling a little lonely, and makes professional development that much more difficult. You would need to be able to independently search out professional development opportunities and advocate for yourself to have the funding to take advantage of said opportunities. You may also find it hard to get management to take your goals for the institution seriously; even if they see your point, there simply may not be funding available. Also, when you say “put your masters on hold”, is that an indefinite hold? Do you need the masters? Will you have a plan for picking it back up?

      Can your professor help you figure out how to let the job down gently?

  209. Echo*

    I know there was a post on here that had some language from Alison for letting hiring managers know that a candidate is a family member, but also you are in no way trying to influence the hire. Does anyone remember where that was?

  210. Dingo*

    Do you have to have a supervisor reference from every job? One of my past supervisors was always incredibly hard to get ahold of, would it be fine to provide one of my employees instead? Retail setting, so there isn’t really a different supervisor I could use instead.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      What does “have to have” mean, though? Sometimes you can even get jobs where you don’t have all of what they call “requirements” in the job description. Hiring managers will want to talk to your supervisors, not your co-workers. But if they love you as a candidate, and you’re their top choice, and you have two supervisors and one co-worker listed in your references, are they going to say to each other on the hiring committee “Well, Dingo is clearly the best, but we can’t offer her a job, because—see? There’s one reference that isn’t a supervisor”?

      1. A Nickname for AAM*

        I think he/she means when the application software asks for it. I’ve applied for jobs where, as I uploaded each resume, the software required I put the name and phone number of the supervisor I reported to…including at your current job.

  211. Paquita*

    I applied online for a state job Wednesday afternoon. Today I received an email that my application had been reviewed and I meet all the qualifications. TWO DAYS for the slow as molasses bureaucracy! Now just wait patiently. :) I am not desperate, just looking for something else right now.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Oh wow! That’s light speed! My manager actually gets back to people very quickly, but the hold up for us has all been HR. We’ve lost candidates because of the slowness of HR.

    2. Snark*

      I’ve been waiting two weeks for an offer letter, and I know I was selected and meet the qualifications. Two days is warp speed, kessel run in twelve parsecs-level speed for a bureaucracy.

  212. AdeTree*

    My boss is an extreme version of anti-meeting. His philosophy is that everything should be done through technology/email and all meetings are a waste of time, but in our line of work sometimes we need face to face meetings. I requested regular one-on-one check-in meetings and he refused, saying it was a waste of time and I could always “come to him with problems” to his desk. He refuses to have team meetings, although I think part of that is his apparent fear of dissent/conflict. He waits until issues arise and then we have long, isolated meetings trying to resolve the issues. All of us on the team want more opportunities to touch base, plan together, evaluate, etc. in person. We have told him this multiple times with no luck. I don’t know what else to do.

    1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      Any chance you could have meetings that don’t include your boss? Not saying you need to leave him out of the loop, have an agenda/minutes and email him the info afterwards, but then everyone gets what they want.

      1. KR*

        I did this! My boss rarely called meetings but my team was never in the office at the same time and it was a trainwreck trying to get everyone on the same page! Also some team members knew each other well and others barely knew each other! So I got his permission to buy pizza once a quarter, called a meeting, and just got everyone in the same room to talk about work. He didn’t involve himself and relied on me to brief him of what happened.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think there’s much you can do about this. Whether my bosses have loved meetings or hated meetings (or actually loved meetings but just said they’ve hated meetings), I’ve never seen anything change their actual behavior in terms of scheduling significantly more or less meetings.

    3. zora*

      can you not call it a meeting?? Call it a ‘standup’ or a ‘collaboration session’ or other things that don’t use the word ‘meeting’?

      Or, can you as a team just get together without telling him?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is what I thought, too.

        However, if you go with what he wants, have “meetings” in email. Send out a group email and ask each person to weigh in. Make sure he is in the email chain. When he sees what happens next he may realize that meeting in person is the practical route.

  213. KayKay*

    One Friday a month, my department is responsible for clearing out our refrigerators for cleaning. We don’t do the cleaning itself, but we do have to have them empty for the night crew, and it just breaks my heart tossing out perfectly good food. We’re explicitly told to trash everything (otherwise it’d be chaos, with people trying to get us to save their stuff, and then yelling at us if it doesn’t get back into the fridge before it spoils over the weekend) and everyone in the firm gets fair warning when this happens, but I just. hate. wasting. food. I get that sometimes people forget that yogurt they bought, or maybe they thought they’d get to their sandwich sooner, but like, I’ve seen entire containers of cottage cheese swimming in mold, or whole packs of unopened fruit just abandoned to rot and like… Ugh.

    Anyways, anybody have any ideas about curbing food waste in communal refrigerators? I feel terrible trashing good food and just hate the guilt/waste.

      1. KayKay*

        There might be, I’d need to check that out! I do doubt that my firm would be okay with donating leftover food, though. (Upper management isn’t exactly charity-prone, and I suspect they’re some of the bigger culprits where food waste is concerned.) A lot of the issue comes down to people opening their food up, taking just a little, and then leaving the rest until I clean it out. And like, it’s their food, sure, they can do what they want with it, but it’s such a shame.

        It might just be my ish, though. I’ve had problems with food security in the past, so I’m a little sensitive to waste. If I wasn’t the one who had to do the actual tossing, it might not bother me so much. But thank you for the idea! It’s worth at least asking about.

    2. KR*

      Is there a service that picks up composting in your area? You could fill a barrel with just food waste and schedule the pickup for that Friday you clean out the fridge?

    3. Beatrice*

      I think to do this part of you job, you just have to figure out how to not care about the waste. You understand why you can’t save the food, and I don’t think you’re going to be very successful at getting people to change their habits. All you can really do is internally acknowledge that the waste sucks but there’s nothing you can or should do about it.

    4. Someone else*

      A place I used to work had the following fridge policy:
      All items must be dated with the date they’re place IN the fridge.
      Every Friday anything without a date* or more than one week old would be tossed.

      This type of rule might help the waste of still-good food because you wouldn’t be forced to toss EVERYTHING, and it may make some people more mindful of what they put in there. Then again it can also, short term, create more waste because people who don’t date things get their stuff tossed. In my experience though, that effect were usually short term and everyone adjusted really quickly. Maybe it might be worth a try?

      *excluding things like mustard or ketchup that obviously have longer shelf lives. Those were tossed based on the expiration on the package.

  214. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

    I’m going to New Caledonia for a week for work! I only found out on Wednesday and I leave tomorrow.

    I don’t speak French. So… that will be fun.

    1. KR*

      My husband was there on a deployment and he said it was great! He went to a lot of islands in the Pacific and said that was one of his favorites. Enjoy!

  215. Argh!*

    Late to the party, but I just wanted to say…

    Webpages & blogs about what’s inappropriate to discuss at work say Politics, Sex, and Religion.

    Number 4: Drugs/Alcohol.
    Nope. Don’t want to hear about it.

    Also, don’t tell me about your aches and pains. If I wanted to listen to that all day I’d work in a nursing home!

    That’s Number 5.

    Number 6: Sportsball. It divides the world into guy-boys, not-guy-boys, and not-guys. Just stop it. The rest of us don’t care about your team. And don’t begin work meetings with talk about sports teams or games or championships. That’s like saying “We have a little club and we know who we are and those are the people I’m really talking to as chair of this diverse workplace. Just ignore all those girly-men and girly-girls. They don’t matter.”

    1. Not*

      I think you’re going to need to be extra-cautious when job hunting to screen for culture fit, since your needs are so out of step with the the majority of people. Good luck!

    2. Colette*

      Girls (women) can like sports?

      I mean, probably they should make fewer assumptions, but you’re making a big one yourself.

      1. Paquita*

        Yes! I am a woman and I like sports. Baseball, football, basketball, horse racing. I don’t follow certain teams closely but I will watch anybody on TV.

  216. Formerly Arlington*

    I had been promised a promotion in August, and then it was put off again and again as my department is in the middle of a reorganization. Last update was May is the big month, i have an approved job description with HR and completed all necessary steps to prove my role is ready to be elevated.

    This week I made a colossal, awful mistake. An error in judgment. To make it worse, I botched my apology by trying to explain how data showed that error wasn’t as bad as leadership thought. I know now that this was worse than the mistake. My boss told me that I have over four years of credibility “in the bank” and that this was a “withdrawal “ and to stay on top of my game to rebuild.

    I am wondering what I can do now to ensure I am in good graces….also scared this will have ruined my promotion. Any advice on rebuilding? I have already apologized both badly and for the bad apology.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Okay so you have done the apology part.
      Next part build a plan so this never happens again. Figure out where the wheels feel off in this story and start making repairs at that point and on.

      Judgement errors are tough. You might be able to find out what area your judgement was off. It could be you promised something that was not yours to promise. It could be that you wildly underestimated how long it would take to do something. And there are many other areas that we make judgement calls.
      Decide what the area is and build a plan so that you are stronger in that area.

      In general when it comes to judgement calls, I like to ask someone whose opinion I respect. “I have situation X, I have choice A or choice B. Which do you prefer and why.” Listening to the reason why is how we grow our own ability to make judgement calls. It’s also good to line up options before you ask the person. If you are clearly able to state what you see as options that shows you are thinking and you are involved in the process already. You aren’t leaching off their brain.

      On the good side of your story here is that your bosses seem to like you/your work. This is a huge plus. Let your sincerity and concern show in good ways. This can be anything from double checking your work to asking people’s opinions or organizing yourself better. If they “catch” you beefing up your act, bonus for you.

  217. Quitting Soon*

    If you hand in your resignation letter and your boss asks you to leave immediately, can you collect unemployment for those two weeks? I thought somewhere on here somebody said yes you can but I wanted to double check

    1. Argh!*

      It depends on whether they continued to pay you (accrued vacation, suspension with pay, severence, etc.)

  218. atgo*

    Hi! I’ve been looking for old AAM posts about this and struggling to find them, though I know I’ve seen them. A friend has been struggling with her management pushing for “diverse new hires.” I’m all for a diverse pool and creating a diverse and inclusive workplace, but in this case my friend is being pushed to hire more junior/less well-suited candidates. From my understanding of Title XII this is discriminatory.

    Anyone else able to find previous posts about this that I’ve failed to unearth? I’d like to share with my friend so that they can hire the best candidate for the role

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Hmmm, I’m not sure if I’ve done a post on it, although it’s definitely come up in the comments a bunch.

      The core info is this: It’s illegal to consider race when hiring. You’re allowed to make special effort to recruit minority candidates into your applicant pool — to make sure that you have a diverse pool of applicants. But what you can’t do is pick the person you hire based on their race (or gender or religion or so forth).

      So you make the pool diverse, and then you hire the best person from it. And the idea is that you’ll have far more chance of having a diverse staff if you do the stuff above to ensure the candidate pool you’re hiring from is diverse itself. But you cannot make race, etc. a factor in deciding who you hire.

      But what you can’t do is take race, etc. into account in the hiring decision itself.

      1. atgo*

        Thanks so much! This has been my understanding, and it’s helpful to confirm. Much appreciated.

    2. SpaceNovice*

      I’ve heard that the best way to get more minority candidates in the pipeline is simply to make them aware that they’ll be considered fairly and to make sure you’re advertising outside of publications/events you traditionally do. Companies have significantly increased the diversity of candidate pools by simply saying that they’ll be treated fairly. There’s studies showing that minorities often get screened out because of their names–which just confirms what they already knew. Your friend would have to look up the details to push back, and it won’t fix everything–but it’s certainly better than hiring people for tokenism.

  219. Jessen*

    This is very silly, but I actually pushed back on my boss a little! And that’s a big deal for me because I’m very much the “panic and roll over because if I’m not 100% cooperative people will think I’m horrible” type.

    It was a pretty minor thing – basically, I said “people are calling in on the line for X task with not-X that can be handled by anyone, and there’s no reason for me to be handling it when someone else is free.” (They don’t like us transferring people to another line when we can do what the customer wants ourselves.) Got an email back saying “it’s been decided that your department is responsible for X task, which is why you answer that line.” Replied basically with “I don’t think I was clear, my problem is people think X line is the right line for not-X and then I get tied up with not-X, here’s the problem with how google is showing our results.”

    He’s forwarding it to the relevant people, which isn’t either me or him, but hopefully should be fixed.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Way to go.
      And this is how to handle stuff. If they miss it the first time, go back again using a different set of words, perhaps data or other supplemental info to back up what you are saying. But always use a different set of words, the first explanation sailed right by them for whatever reason. The reason does not matter. Find a different way of explaining the same thing.

      Good for you!

  220. Totally anon today ...*

    not using the name I usually use here because it’s a too much of a description of what I do and I want to be really anonymous …. anyway… I started a new job recently and I feel like I’m making “too many” mistakes but no one is calling me on it so maybe I’m not but still…For the most part mistakes have mostly been those caused by not quite realizing I didn’t know all of the information I needed know so something was categorized one way when it should have been another way… I’ve caught nearly all of my mistakes so maybe that helps? But how do I know people aren’t thinking the worst of me? Because I feel really dumb each time I realize I’ve made a mistake and I’m the type that will obsess over each one for months to come…

    1. Colette*

      First of all, ask your supervisor if you’re making a reasonable number of mistakes for the amount of time you’ve been in the job.
      But also, remember that most people aren’t thinking the worst of you. In fact, they’re probably not thinking about you at all. As long as you’re learning and making an effort to improve, you’re fine.

      1. Totally anon today ...*

        Thank you. I did actually ask one person if the mistakes were causing an issue and her attitude seems to be everything can be fixed (with regards to categorization issues). But your right I might need to have that type of conversation with my actual supervisor at some point soon because I feel like part of my problem is feeling like there’s a lack of structure? Some things are too disorganized and I’m coming from a job where everything was SUPER organized and structured down to the smallest detail….

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You don’t know that people are not thinking the worst of you. We can never prove what people are or are not thinking inside their heads.

      There is only one thing worse than other people thinking badly of us. And that worse thing is US thinking badly of ourselves.

      It is fine to obsess over mistakes if you do it in a constructive manner.
      Take each mistake a build a plan so you do not make that same mistake again. Maybe you use a note book. Maybe you decide, “I will make it a habit that when I do x then I will do y.” I do this around the house. Every morning I let the dog out and that is my memory trigger to go empty the dehumidifier while I wait for him. I don’t forget that dehumidifier too much.

      This next one is a tough one, decide to believe people. If people are acting happy with your work, then BELIEVE them. We don’t get to decide for other people how they should feel.

      They are probably happy with your work. I was thrilled with any one who routinely caught their own mistakes. I mean, over the moon thrilled. Look, crap happens. It’s our willingness to clean up the crap that distinguishes us from “average workers”. Keep cleaning up your mistakes, the mistakes will gradually become less and less because you will get tired of making them and the chaos will make more sense in a bit.

      Make lists, put reminder notes on things, do all the stuff you need to do to keep you on track. And be patient with you. They are showing you more patience than you are showing yourself.

      You don’t say how long you have been there. Allow yourself at least 6 months to get into the swim of it and allow yourself a full year to really get to know the job.

      1. Totally anon today ...*

        Thank you for all of this…. I’ve been there only a couple months so really I probably need to be more patient with myself and keep on learning what I should know and everything.

        1. SpaceNovice*

          All of the above, and remember: people have been in your position. If they’re emotionally intelligent, then they can put themselves in your shoes. It’s also good that you’re asking for feedback–that is an incredibly good sign that you’ll do just fine (it usually means you’re the type of person that’ll “get it”).

  221. Yikes*

    I started a new job 3 months ago and I am running into an “interesting” management style here. I have gotten a lot of positive feedback so far in official settings, such as my first quarterly review and in one on one meetings with my supervisor. I’ve invited criticism directly and haven’t received any – directly.

    But in a meeting with 12 people where I can’t really ask questions about it, my supervisor will bring up very specific events where something was done incorrectly. “Doing X won’t fix Y,” for example, when I had run into a scenario exactly like that, did X, and my customer claimed that it did fix Y. Seeing as how X was a last ditch effort in a case where nothing else was wrong that would cause Y, I don’t think I did anything horrible here. And if it was horrible, I don’t see why he couldn’t tell me directly.

    The only reason I can think of to not bring it up with me directly, when I’ve asked for constructive criticism, is to make me feel like I’m losing my mind. Official positive feedback is followed up with informal, passive aggressive criticism in a group setting where it can’t be defended against, challenged, or even responded to.

    How do I deal with this?

    1. Colette*

      I think you’re overreacting here. First of all, the most likely reason to give vague feedback to a group rather than specific feedback to you is not to make you feel like you’re losing your mind – it’s because it’s hard to give people negative feedback.

      But if you’re concerned that the group feedback is really meant for you, ask. “Hey, I. The meeting you mentioned that X will never fix Y, but in Specific Situation, I did X because Z and the client confirmed that it fixed Y. Can you walk me through how you would have liked me to handle it?”

  222. Is this a positive or creepy?*

    I just returned from an interview. The setup was unusual in that all of the candidates were together throughout the process. I believe I did well and am positive I’m either the top or second candidate.

    When I was shaking the lead interviewer’s hand on the way out, he winked at me. It felt/feels very odd. Would you take this as a sign that my interview went well and he was trying to signal this or is this completely out of place and should give me pause about a future employer?

    1. StudentA*

      If you got a creepy vibe from him in general, then I’d worry. But if the interview was c0nducted professionally and you felt comfortable, I wouldn’t worry about it. I’ve met some people who were in the habit of winking at people when they were in a good mood. It wasn’t a sign of flirtation for them. Of course, I have met some who flirted in that manner, but I’d picked up on their flirtatiousness before the wink :)

      Based on everything you share above, it sounds like they were trying to leave you on a positive, confident note. But no one can guarantee that it was well-intended, obviously. Good luck with everything!

  223. TK*

    In a tricky situation here, and a bit stuck what to do.

    My line manager has been interviewing for a new person to join our team, the first new person we’ve had in 3 years. Had it down to the final two candidates. My boss was having IT issues, and emailed me their applications to print off for her, in Word format. Did this, and then deleted the email, but the problem arises in that opening the files I saw details of both candidates. Curiousity got the better of me, and I googled the names to try and find out a little bit about the person I could end up working alongside. 3rd search result though showed them as having been convicted of an assault less than 6 months ago. No custodial sentence, but a hefty fine. This is the candidate they’ve offered the job to, although I know that any criminal record would prevent you from being employed here. I think though that checks are lax, because it’s not the sort of industry that you’d associate with a criminal record.

    I’ll only judge people based on how they are with me, but my concerns are that this person has most likely lied on their application, and the contracts we deal with he would be prevented from working on as would fail security clearances by the clients.

    So, the question is what, if anything, should I do?

    1. KR*

      Does your employer do a pre-employment background check? My employer offered me the job first, contingent on the background check clearing (which they only initiated once they offered me the job. I’m assuming it costs money). If you think your manager would listen and you can swing the fib you could try saying, “I couldn’t help but see Martha’s name on one of those applications you sent me. I remember seeing her name in the newspaper a couple months ago for an assault charge. ” But otherwise I would stay out of it and rely on the background check to do it’s job.

    2. A Nickname for AAM*

      Wait until the background check clears, and then say something if you find out they’re still onboarding after.

      In many states now, it is illegal to do a background check prior to extending a job offer. The offer has to be extended, and then once the person accepts, they get to do the background check. If you work in a line of work where the background check is a 100% dealbreaker (I work with children: you work with security clearance) it seems like a silly rule, but this is to prevent people who don’t work in such industries from being discriminated against based on their criminal offender status. You meet the candidate and judge them based on their qualifications, and then decide if their offense is a problem, rather than eliminating all criminal offenders from the applicant pool.

  224. Ed*

    So.. my company’s been doing a lot of restructuring lately and this week I was told my current role is being eliminated. They’re creating a new role (that is literally 100% the same) and we’re highly encouraged to apply. Our names have been put forward etc. My issue is it’s becoming a 100% work from home job. I hate Working from home. Everyone knows this. I can’t get excited about applying for and interviewing for the job I have which has, to me, worse work conditions. I just feel really shit about the whole thing and no matter how many people tell me they hope I decide to stay, I just don’t think I can. Job posting went up today, comes down next Friday and they’ll have hired people by the following Friday. I feel steamrolled and I’m just pissed off.

    1. Colette*

      What happens if you don’t apply?

      I’d suggest applying and also applying for other jobs you’d like more. That way you have money coming in while you look.

      And I’m sorry you’re going through this, it sounds stressful.

    2. Triple Anon*

      Wait. The new role is exactly the same aside from being remote? So they’re saying, “We’re firing you but calling it a restructuring and we want you to be in the applicant pool for your own job.” I’ve heard of companies doing this, and I think it’s a little sketchy. I know you’re not being singled out. But I think the mentality behind it is often, “Let’s see if there are stronger applicants we can hire to replace some of our workers while still having the option of retaining those people.” And usually they’re looking for people with more tech skills or something like that.

      I would look elsewhere. They’re being weasely and disrespectful. But that’s just my take on it. Someone with more knowledge on this subject (restructuring) might see it differently.

      1. Ed*

        If I don’t apply, and don’t find my self a new job by June, there will be a package. Probably not a good one. They won’t tell us what it would be.
        Personal opinion, I think they’re trying to get rid of someone who’s on disability currently.
        But yes, I need to apply for my own job or lose it. It’s only been posted internally and I know the hiring manager and I know I’d automatically be “interviewed “ and am like 99% sure I’d be offered it. They aren’t going to want to have to retrain people from scratch either. It’s just rubbing me the wrong way and I want to just walk away.

        1. Colette*

          So how long could you survive without a paycheck?

          I think you should look elsewhere but I also think it might be a good idea to apply for your own job in case your search takes a long time.

    3. doubtful*

      Could you look into coworking spaces in your area, so you can work remotely, but not be stuck at home?

    4. SpaceNovice*

      Apply so that you have a chance to still have a job… while you look elsewhere (for reasons others have mentioned). Job searches take time–have a backup plan! Knowing you’re planning to leave will make it a bit more bearable.

      I also hate working from home, for the record, and would leave a company if it became remote.

  225. Help!*

    I recently interviewed for but didn’t receive an internal promotion. I had several conversations with and interviewed with my current boss as well as others. My boss made multiple statements about the position chances such as “for example if X is promoted they will . . . “ and X was almost always the same name – actually the name of someone being considered (and who was promoted). By the time my interview was over I felt like I wasn’t actually being considered for the position and it was very demoralizing. I’m sure no matter how much I tried not to that it affected my answers.

    I want to know what I need to improve on but am struggling with how to follow up with the interview. Has anyone else been in a similar situation? Or just have advice on how to handle this?

    Thanks!!!

    1. BRR*

      Say your interested in moving up and ask what you need to work on in order to get promoted.

    2. Argh!*

      Wow, you’re really lucky your boss tipped you off to what was happening. I’d say that indicates your boss is on your side and will probably get behind you for another job that’s not in the can for someone else.

    3. kmb*

      I would ask directly to your boss after the interview process. I interviewed for an internal position, which I didn’t get (the person who did wasn’t internal though), and I could ask about it and got feedback that made sense. If you want, and feel comfortable, I think you could also say “I noticed that during the interview, you mentioned the person who got the job a lot, which made me wonder if you had already made the decision. Was that the case?” and if yes, you could ask why they decided to do the other interviews as well. It could be a process thing, and/or it could be that while they didn’t think you’d get the position this time around, they think you might be a good future candidate and wanted to give you the experience interviewing for it.

  226. Gatomon*

    My team works in a cube farm and we share the space with another team. We collaborate occasionally, but truly not often enough to have it make sense (compared to moving some other teams into that space). The culture on this other team is boisterous, whereas ours is generally quiet. Both sides need to be able to concentrate, but there are certain people on the other team who are naturally loud or naturally… obnoxious. Lots of yelling over cubes and shouting and clapping. Their noise is really disruptive to me and a few of my teammates. We’ve resorted to headphones and earplugs to drown them out, which impacts our team cohesion. I feel silly IM’ing someone next to me, but that’s what it has come to because we are all just trying to concentrate. There aren’t any real options for moving us right now, and the other team isn’t likely to go anywhere either. There are more of them than us, so we usually lose out when asking them to be quiet.

    The Powers That Be recently have made clear they are looking at expanding our office and potentially consolidating several buildings – we have the land to do an expansion/build. How can I (maybe we if I can get some coworkers on board) communicate to our manager that we’d like to be in a more private/quiet area, or at least situated with a team that is a better fit for us? I believe they will be asking some people what they need in an office space going forward, but I have no way of guaranteeing someone from our team will be asked.

    Also, while I don’t think management has any interest in designing an open office space, if anyone knows any good vocab to make it clear that is not what we want, I’ll take that too.

    1. BRR*

      Say how your work requires quiet and the ability to concentrate. For the open office space, you could cite any of the numerous studies that show it decreases productivity.

    2. AeroEngineer*

      We have an open office space (never again for me) and I IM the person sitting next to me all the time. We both wear headphones as we are on one team and in the same room with the rest of the department (who are loud people), and it is just so much less intrusive to IM.

      If I had the chance to move, I would talk with the rest of the team and perhaps go as a group, and just speak up! It might be that this isn’t even on their radar (it should be), but don’t wait for them to come to you (I’ve been burned in that way before and seen other people also miss out on big things since they didn’t speak up).

  227. Your Friendly Neighbourhood Optician*

    I am an optician, so I work Saturdays but the store I work at is closed Sundays. We have basically been told Saturdays off aren’t going to happen unless there are special circumstances, but we get full long weekends off to offset it (so the Saturday-Sunday-Monday). I’m in Alberta, and I think there are 10 stats days in a year here

    Except this year, they’ve decided we won’tbe closed for most of the Saturdays, plus 2 stat days are on Sundays this year, and Alberta’s labour laws say they don’t have to give us a day in lieu (only province in Canada to do it this way!), so they just… don’t do that either. So out of a potential 8 stat days where we’d get a long weekend out of the deal, I think we’re going to end up with 4, or maybe 3. No Saturday in February, May, July, September, or November, and Xmas falls on a Tuesday this year, so we’ll won’t have a long weekend then. But we for sure have to work an extra 4 of the potential 8 (not sure if T-gives will be a holiday weekend or not, at this point)

    A group of my coworkers and I have a meeting set up with management tomorrow. I assume they’ll ask what we want instead of our long weekends, and I say a rotation of Saturdays! My boss who owns the company is a soft-hearted guy (it’s a family business, we are his family, etc), but the Operations Manager used to work in women’s clothing and her opinion is it’s a retail day and if it were up to her, we’d never have a Saturday off, like it or leave it. How can we convince her that’s unreasonable? I know I’m not going to work every Saturday for the rest of my career. I know I can say it’ll affect their ability to get and retain good people, but she seriously thinks “it’s a retail store, Saturday is our busiest day: ergo, you work Saturday). We feel like it’s not just a retail store, it’s a medical office as well.

    I’ve worked in other offices that were open on Saturdays (of course) and even Sundays, and we rotated weekends on and off – but I know we’re going to meet resistance on this. When my coworker went to set up the meeting, the OM was *pissed* and gave her the silent treatment for the rest of the morning.

    If it matters, OM is a total workaholic and works every single day; we are an incredibly busy office; there are 4 departments whose staff don’t overlap; and no one gets Saturdays off. We’re raising this because we are not the only ones disappointed.

    1. Nacho*

      Do you get Mondays off? Or do you work 6 days a week? Because if you do get Mondays off, then I’m not really sure it is unreasonable. I work in an office that has to be open 7 days a week, which means some of us work Sun-Thurs, and some work Tues-Sat, and nobody get both Sat and Sun off.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The owner needs to know the OM is using the silent treatment as a management tool. This type of thing creates a toxic environment. It also telegraphs that the OM has very poor, if any, management skills. That is the overarching problem here.

      If retailers expect to retain help for any length of time they have to rotate weekends. I do think it’s important to acknowledge that however you define the business, medical or retail, Saturday is a busy day. It’s important for the company to be available to serve people. Tell her the definition of the business does not matter and you agree it’s important to serve the people. If you get stuck on defining what the business is the conversation will not progress.

      Staff rotation is important for retaining staff, period. They can hire a floater who works mostly Saturdays to relieve people who need emergency time. They can hire a couple people who JUST work Saturdays.

      It may be good to work up some numbers as far as increases in business. The owner could be asleep at the switch, it sounds like he should have added more people long before now. If you can show that business is up since last year or even in the last six months that might persuade the owner to consider expanding the staff.

      But your boss needs to be reported. Giving employees the silent treatment is so over the top inappropriate.

  228. Will at Will?*

    So I applied for a couple positions that were listed as: “At will? No”

    I thought that most states (including mine) are ‘at-will’ employees. I’m confused.

    1. Nacho*

      Theoretically, you can make any job not at-will by signing a contract, but I’m not sure why the job would do that since it’s not in their best interest.

    2. Carolum*

      From what I’ve heard, “at-will state” means that companies have the right, but *not* the obligation, to employ their employees on an at-will basis. So they still do have the right to employ people on a non-at-will basis. One reason they might do this is that it gives them a recruiting tool when they offer some sort of job security.

  229. Jennifer*

    No one’s going to see this now because I’m posting way late, but I just watched Superstore and they just showed the manager outright screaming at his staff to buy all of his wife’s handmade goods. YIIIIIIIIIIIKES.

  230. crookedfinger*

    How do I politely tell someone that I cannot focus solely on their project and that they need to be patient?

    I work as a marketing assistant supporting a marketing manager, and between the two of us, we support a group of roughly 50+ salespeople and their assistants. We frequently have to prioritize more urgent projects, which happened this week (pitch for new business with a hard deadline of Friday at 2 pm).
    Most of the salespeople understand that we’re only two people and we can’t always focus on their specific project right away, but there’s this one guy who doesn’t seem to get it. I suspect he either thinks we don’t do much, so I can focus on his project all the time, or that I can work nights and weekends (I’m hourly and can’t do overtime without the approval of my boss).

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You explained it pretty well here, think of this as practice.

      “Bob, there are two people here taking care of 50 plus sales people. I am paid hourly and overtime is not authorized. We have to take the urgent projects first. We try to get to everyone as soon as we can, however, we do have to follow procedure regarding priority.”

      OR. “Bob, I get the sense that your project is urgent to you and most certainly I can understand that. But we have people ahead of you with higher priority projects because of hard deadlines etc. We have not forgotten you and we will get to your project as soon as we are able.”

    2. o.b.*

      Eurgh, people like Bob are so annoying. If you haven’t yet, try these:
      -When he gives you new work, give him a general sense of when you should be able to start and finish. Use language like “expect to” or “should be able to” to imply “this is my best estimate, but sometimes other things come up”
      -Ask what kind of deadline he has in mind so you can prioritize your work. If he gives you an unrealistic or vague answer (“as soon as possible!” for something that’s not urgent), see below
      -When he follows up about why you’re not devoting every waking hour to his project, use the language Not So New Reader suggested. I prefer the second one unless it sounds like he truly is asking you to work overtime

  231. Dandy*

    Breaking News: The doomed relationship two coworkers are in surprises no one in the office.

  232. Wintermute*

    Here’s an interesting one we’re pondering right now. We’re third shift, and the options for delivery around here are pretty limited late at night. One of the places open is Hooters. Now obviously, it’s been gone over before how uncomfortable some people are GOING to hooters, but does that extend to ordering delivery?

    Some people here are saying that the objection is to the sexualized atmosphere and since it’s just delivery there’s no concern. Other people are saying that the name itself is a problem, or that the problem is that the restaurant is tainted by their “breastaurant” status regardless of whether or not you can see anything.

    To me it’s a clear case of “just going there for the wings” because that’s literally all you’re getting, a box with wings in it. Is Hooters so inherently inappropriate they’re banned in any form from the workplace? I don’t want to straw man the opposing view as claiming that merely buying food there is “supporting an agent of oppression” but that’s sort of what some of these arguments are boiling down to. Would it be different if you were bringing in leftovers as opposed to ordering delivery?

    For what it’s worth I dodged the whole thing and ordered from Sonic… I felt like ice cream, but I’m genuinely curious what people think!

    1. Nacho*

      Getting delivery from Hooters is a little like watching investigative reporting on Fox: the product isn’t nearly as horrible as you’d expect from the people who hired Glen Beck (Fox actually runs a half decent news team that’s completely overshadowed by their opinions team), but just by choosing to get your news from them you’re supporting a company with some very sexist, homophobic, and unethical practices, even if that particular news program has none of those things.

      If you have options other than Hooters, and someone on your team is uncomfortable with patronizing them, just go with the other options.

      1. Caro in the UK*

        I agree. I wouldn’t want to give them any of my money or support their business in any way, because I very strongly disagree with their sexist and misogynistic practices.

      2. Wintermute*

        I should clarify, I mean a group of people were ordering from there, while I was ordering sonic, and some other people were ordering from a pizza place. My question isn’t so much as “should they be made to order food from there?” but “is the mere presence of the food from there offensive?”

    2. Not*

      I’m not sure why you think that’s a straw man -it’s literally the exact problem. And it’s a reasonable argument to make. You pay them money for the wings, they profit. You therefore support a company that makes money from overt sexualisation of women, misogynistic business practices, and discrimination.

      The straw man here is thinking that is makes any difference if you “just” order for delivery!

      If you are OK with that as an individual, go right ahead. You get to decide if you want to be a decent human being or not. Your company should not, however, unless they want to trash their reputation. The optics are terrible!

      1. Wintermute*

        I meant some individuals ordering from there, not company-sponsored catering, I apologize that this was unclear, though it’s an interesting question all around!

  233. Luna123*

    A couple weeks ago, I remember posting something along the lines of “what, no, two interviews A DAY is crazypants! I’d never do that!”

    Now I have two interviews scheduled for next Tuesday, one in the morning and one in the afternoon.

    2. Alianora*

      I’ve done that a couple times. I actually liked it because I could get into interview mode for the whole day and my nervous energy was more diffused so I didn’t fixate on one specific interview. It helped me act natural.

      Good luck!

  234. Fresh Faced*

    Aaaah I need some advice. I have an interview coming up and have been given the option of a skype call interview or an in person interview. I know in person interviews are better all around and the company has specified that they prefer it, but it’ll mean an 8 hour travel time for me (i’m stuck with some expensive public transport which doubles the time.) If I was really jazzed about this job I would just suck it up but I’m so unsure about it. I don’t know if I want to commit the time and money to get to the interview, especially when my application was kind of a throw away and the response was very generic (“dear applicant thanks for your CV, pick a time” and all). but it is a entry role into a niche in my field and I’m unemployed….

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I would opt for the Skype interview, but explain that you are X far away and [planning to move/whatever] if you are offered the job.

    2. Ursula*

      I would think a reasonable company would understand your reluctance to take an eight hour trip to an interview, for many people it would not be practical (or affordable). Preference for in person interviews probably means that it is easier for the interviewer to give an in person interview I doubt it means you will penalised for choosing a skype interview.They offered skype interviews as an option after all and a reasonable company won’t do that then penalise someone for taking an option they offered.

  235. Eileen*

    Does anyone have any tips on how to deal with anxiety with interviews when you’re dealing with hair loss? I’ a 20-something woman but as of late I’ve been dealing with hair issues (nothing too serious and I’ve seen the doctor) but it will take time for my hair to grow back. I’m worried that potential employers may see me as unhealthy/a liability and I really need a job since I’ve been unemployed for over a year now.

    1. Anxa*

      If you’ve been unemployed, I’m sure money may be tight, but have you considered a wig? I don’t think it would solve everything (when do you decide to stop wearing it?), but I think it’s more common than many people imagine.

      1. Eileen*

        I have but I’m not comfortable wearing them, also because there were a few times I wore the ponytail extension as a teen and I hated it. Also, I don’t have the money for a wig right now. :/

  236. Mary*

    I was given an assignment by the head boss via email. It was assigned at 3pm and he wanted it by end of day.

    I started working on it, and realized it would take more hours than I had in the day.

    So I sorted it into pieces, and assigned the interns pieces of it to work on.

    The project would still be more work than we had capability for, so I asked the direct boss (head boss wasn’t in the office) if any other of the staff could help me on it.

    He asked “Jill” to help.

    At the same time, “Bob” in another department had offered to help, so I was busy sorting out the piece for him to work on, and composing the email.

    Jill, whose desk is near mine in an open office, asked to get it now. I said, “Hey, you have to wait a minute, because I’m working on assigning the piece to Bob right now.”

    Jill goes, “Who’s Bob? I need to see the assignment so I can see what we need to do.”

    I say, “Jill, just a minute.”

    Jill says, “Well I found more people who can help so I need it right now.”

    I say, “Oh that’s great. Who is working on it?”

    She refuses to tell me and says again she needs the whole project. I tell her that I’ve already assigned it to three people so it doesn’t make sense for her to start all over when they’ve already started working on it.

    Jill stands up from her desk and yells over to me, “Mary, send it now or I can’t help and I can’t figure out what resources we need to get it done because I won’t know how many people.”

    I’m still barely though the email to Bob. This whole time I haven’t had time to have a real conversation with her because I’m trying to focus, and she’s yelling at my from across the room. So I respond very sternly, “You need to wait.”

    I finish my email and go to the chat, and say, “Hey, I can talk about your part now. It doesn’t make sense for you to assign to people when I’ve bc already split it up four ways.” She responds to my message, “I don’t appreciate being disrespected like that in such a rude way.” And then says she is not going to assign people anymore. So I ask, ok, can I assign you the piece of it now, and she’s doesn’t respond.

    Then, I get an email from my boss saying Jill was only trying to help, and did you yell at Jill?

    Now, I feel like my reputation in the office is ruined. Literally. Jill won’t talk to me, and people seem a bit more cold.

    I’m not even sure what to do now, except keep my head down and not engage with people.

    I have trouble figuring out if people genuinely like Jill, or if they’ve learned to do what she says so she won’t blow up at them. It’s not like I can ask someone. But, whenever anything happens and she’s not part of it, she (used to) message me: what’s that about? Someone was showing me how to use the espresso machine the other day, and she asked what we were doing, and I saw my coworker lie to her — maybe because he knew she’d try to take over.

    Anyway, yeah…. not sure what to do now. It seems like she’s hyper-motivated by emotion, has to be in charge of everything. I had the feeling she didn’t like me early on, so I kept trying to make an effort to be extra nice. I’d thank her for her unsolicited advice, even when it was obvious to me, but that was probably a bad move on my part because maybe it set the expectation I thought I needed help. I wonder if she didn’t like me anyway because instead of just asking her for her thoughts on certain things, I’d ask other people as well… and I’ve been actively working to improve the office. Maybe she’s resentful about that?

    Anyway, she thinks she runs everything and everyone likes her, so maybe it’s better to avoid contact with her as much as possible.

    1. Mary*

      But anyway, I feel like now I’m being seen as like, “the emotionally unstable person who yelled at Jill”. So… even if I avoid her, I don’t really know what to do about that.

    2. Mary*

      Oh! Also, I was ordering lunch for everyone, as per the boss’s request. I’d already sent out TWO reminders that they’d need to send it to me by x o’clock. I knew not everyone would order, because some people prefer to bring their lunch, etc. If I had asked people who didn’t send it in, “Are you ordering?” then I’d need to get a response from everyone, including the people who didn’t care or brought their lunch, some of whom were in a meeting, and the lunch would definitely be late.

      So instead I sent what was now the THIRD reminder to the people who hadn’t ordered (which included Jill), and I phrased it like, “hey just a reminder to send your order in by x o’clock or I’ll assume you have other food plans.” And Jill is like okok one sec I’ll send it, and I’m like ok np.

      Later, someone makes a joke with similar phrasing I used in my email (who wasn’t on the email) which makes me realize — she’s complaining about my emails to other people now?! Wth!!

  237. Quinoa*

    I had a Big Deal interview yesterday, for a company that is considered one of the best in its field AND has a reputation for looking more at potential than experience and giving a lot of focus developing employees. The role would be a career pivot for me, but one that I’ve been working toward for a while (and an amazing first gig in that new career direction). I credit Ask A Manager for getting me this far in the process. Your advice on resumes, cover letters and interviews has been invaluable. And thanks to Alison’s free guide on How to Prepare for an Interview, I was able to go in with confidence and charm and was completely ready for anything they asked me.

    The two most useful questions I was able to ask:
    1) What reservations do you still have about hiring me that I might be able to address?
    The interviewer replied with an concern about how I would handle the type of work that on paper looks very different from what I do now. I was able to respond with examples that demonstrate how I’m already used to and seeking a situation like they’re hiring for. I would never have known that was their biggest worry if I hadn’t asked that question, and that question would never have occurred to me without the guide.

    2) Given your experience with people in this position, what is the difference between those who are good at the job and those who are truly great?
    Not ONLY did the interviewer say, “Great question!” They gave me feedback that shows me I’m on the right track in moving into this field. Because the two things they listed are *things I already do.*

    So thank you, Alison, for creating this treasure trove of advice and information, and for building a community of such thoughtful commenters. And thank you commenters for creating this community and offering your advice and information as well.

  238. Deathby1000cuts*

    Not sure if this is a vent, an invitation for advice, or general self-inventorying. Feel free to respond as you see fit, haha.

    I can’t tell if I am prospering in my current role, or if the role has potentially outgrown me. In short, the job has evolved into a role which potentially requires a more extroverted and less neurotic person to perform effectively… to me, at least.

    Some backstory. Our lab is only two years old. PI and I have worked our butts off to establish a viable methodology platform that has so far been successful in advancing the aims of multiple developmental projects for new molecules. Our success as a lab allowed for me to convert from contractor to permanent and has placed my PI and I into an informal “core lab” role due to the impact of our work and the collaborations this impact has spawned. As a former academic, I have a full appreciation of what this means — many academic PIs struggle to attract collaborative interest (and hence increased # chances to publish and establish reputation to grant reviewers). Business-wise, our methods save the company lots of $$ on overhead and they are flexible enough to support any aspect of preclinical development. I’m rarely a confident person, but even I have to admit it: we’re “hot” and this sort of position isn’t easy to come by. If we play our cards right and deliver on collaborative projects, we’ll be set for success and good reputation for years to come — either through development of a novel pharmacotherapy that makes bank for our company, or through side projects that contribute to the scientific community at large.

    I just don’t feel comfortable with the rapid expansion of both our lab and my role… and I’m a bit disappointed in myself because the discomfort has plagued me since day one of the job for one reason or another. I hoped I would feel more competent and balanced by now. I was hired into the lab with only translatable/related skills to our methodology, but a core skill of being able to quickly learn new investigational techniques quickly and effectively… so I think my employer and I both rolled the dice. The “startup” phase was very challenging, to say the least. I stubbornly committed to learning anything/everything regarding our disease target (new to me), experimental design and analysis for our platform methodology, the technical skills required to perform the benchwork, the company SOPs for all sorts of common business/operational processes, etc. My PI and our lab’s largest collaborator really put in an effort to sculpt me into the role. Overall, I have been out of my comfort zone for almost two years straight… but committed to fully capitalizing on the opportunity afforded to me. I’m creative, an introvert, curious, distractible, and a worry-wart… qualities that actually served me really well in fueling my drive to rise to the occasion, and that would be widely considered a good fit for the original scope of my position.

    Adapting to the new demands of the role is taxing me beyond what I feel is sustainable for more than another few months. I expected that the conversion to a permanent position (for me) would enable our lab to acquire an additional contractor to balance the increasing workload due to our rapid expansion into a dozen or so projects. I also hoped that my PI and collaborators would retune their management style from project/deliverable-based to a style that focuses on balancing pacing and sustaining long-term objectives, assuming that I’m now in it for the long haul and that I’m very obviously loyal to then for their mentorship efforts. I had also hoped to get buy-in on some strategies and efforts that would enable us to track our many collaborative projects, our lab’s own pet projects, supply inventories, study documentation, etc., since I’m “boots-on-the-ground” experienced with these facets of our work. In my line of work, these expectations are generally considered to be the “spoils” for the staff scientist who is willing to stick-out a lab’s chaotic and demanding startup phase: your work sets lab precedents and SOPs, which you then optimize for further efficiency, eventually training new/volunteer lab members in the most streamlined way to do the work.

    Back to the present. With some hard work and luck, I’ve become the “go-to” guy for my PI and collaborators… I still feel as lost as I did on day one… just in new ways and with greater responsibility/potential for failure. Communicating with our many collaborators, and dealing with “drop-ins” and light micromanagement due to the combined open office and lab workspace, taxes my working memory capabilities, leading to sometimes embarassing (small) mistakes or miscommunications… sometimes confusing a similar-sounding protein on one project for another, or forgetting an instruction 5 seconds after it was given to me. PI sees these mistakes and confusions and provides feedback or redirection verbally… which I forget after 2 seconds when cognitively taxed, sometimes leading to repeating the mistake. Our primary collaborator, having mentored me and having a good relationship with my PI, has a habit of delegating tasks to as if I am his direct report… which my boss seems to be fine with… but they disagree on prioritization constantly, meaning one is always unhappy with whatever my current task priority is, and will attempt to redirect me to their preferred task when I’m mid-task already. I’ve expressed my concerns about communication and prioritization to my PI directly… but his response is to then check-in with me verbally MORE often… and the cycle repeats. English is not his first language, so he prefers all communication to be face-to-face to gauge mutual understanding, rather than via email or messaging. When adding up questions or inquiries from coworkers, or moments where collaborators stop by unannounced to “gently/kindly” check the status of their project or generally just sustain the working relationship with small talk, well; this amounted to 21 interruptions on a single day (I tallied them). Our company culture is midwestern and passive/aggressive — there is no good way to shut down these constant check-ins, even politely, without losing social capital in the process.

    If I had a stable workload, a job that was not inherently cognitively demanding, and support from coworkers, I am sure that I could eventually adapt to these circumstances. My current workload is 15 projects, 8 currently active. Each project requires a rough data readout equivalent of a 3-8 figure journal article. This does not include incidental or one-off procedures required to remain a team player in the department, which further distract from these projects. Digressing… anyways, PI or collaborator gives me the study aims; I design, conduct, analyze, report, and present results to PI, collaborators or workgroups. The complexity of the work means that small distractions (21 per day) cumulatively derail the focus and attention required to complete the work. I find myself still pulling long hours despite massive improvements to my efficiency that are inherent with time/practice. This leads to delays in self-imposed deadlines, and has resulted in missing one collaborator deadline. It also leads to increased check-ins by collaborators and my PI close to the deadline… which derails my work and requires substantial effort and personal time to hit the deadline regardless. My boss doesn’t set deadlines on purpose so he has deniability… and he seems to think it includes me in its protection, but it doesn’t. He gets an angry email from a collaborator and then puts pressure on me to make their project my top priority… even if it means missing deadlines for other projects. I am concerned that I come off as negative, flakey, disorganized, and at times incompetent to others in my department because of these cumulative effects… indeed, others have pointed out that I’ve been a bit short and/or complaining too much… and combining that with missing deadlines, yet repeated reassurances from my boss that I’m doing well… I feel like I have no reliable barometer here. My boss is an ESL transplant from China… I sometimes worry that his lack of care for how I come off to others in our Midwestern office culture is a blindspot timebomb that I will eventually get blamed for. If I was an extrovert with low neuroticism, I could run positive interference and sell it to others as a quirk, while also hinting that I’m doing my best with what I’m given… but instead, I’m pretty sure I’ll be taking the hit when crud eventually hits the fan.

    We finally got two additional employees assigned to our lab; one is very motivated but, like me, is brand new to the research we do. Due to current project load, I have to train new worker “on the fly,” which means 2x more time is needed to develop the skills than would be required if I had time to develop a solid training plan and lessons. I estimate it will take coworker ~6months total to develop all the basic skills needed to independently run studies in our lab. The other new coworker is very skilled in a limited methodological subset, but refuses to learn additional skills that would enable balancing the overall workload. Stallwart coworker is on 2 projects total, I’m on 15. In theory, two new coworkers should help ease my project load and balance my schedule — in practice, it will be a while before I see the returns on that.

    Yet, apparently I’m doing well enough to be our go-to guy and to train a new coworker (yet micromanaged as borderline incompetent)… I’m on our lab’s highest profile projects (by default since nobody else can/will do the work)… I’m a good team player for helping all our coworkers and collaborators (actually moody and unpleasant to be around).

    Am I crazy? Has the workplace passive-aggression finally gotten to me? Imposter Syndrome? Boss setting me up to fail? A poor role fit? Is it Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis??

    I’m definitely in over my head.

    1. Dragonfly*

      A passive aggressive culture, did you say? Are you already part of that culture by any chance – I keep asking myself.
      It seems to me you need more self-confidence in order to discuss the problem openly and seek possible solutions, and to stop being harsh in your judgment of you, one; two, you might worry less if you could talk to a friend who understands the culture well and is capable of a critical, onjective outlook on the way you have been handling your issues. An outsider’s view can really help.
      Finally, take as much rest as you can and take up meditation; the less you worry, the better you will perform. Keep saying to yourself you are an asset, because it is actually true, I’d say: Are you intelligent, knowledgable, ready to learn, and consciensious? Yes. Have you not done a great job so far? Yes, you have. Have you got good manners and can you work with others well? You have and you can. What more do you expect of yourself, really? I wish you just a bit more patience with yourself and a good long rest when you can have it, that is, after you have stuck it a few more months and proved to yourself that you are truly competent and good to have as an employee.

    2. SpaceNovice*

      Getting interrupted constantly like that is definitely impacting performance, like you said. You’ve got so much on your brain that it’s too much to juggle and you end up dropping balls. What it sounds like you’ve done so far is pretty amazing, but the constantly being pulled in all directions makes it hard to see it that way. Seriously, though–I suspect most people wouldn’t be able to handle that load of work even short-term! Dealing with FIFTEEN projects is an immense workload. You’re not crazy, and no wonder why you’re feeling like an imposter.

      Also: you’re going to forget things with that amount of projects; it’s almost guaranteed. That’s way too much for one brain to keep track of successfully. (Even Stephen Hawking didn’t work on 16 projects at once, I suspect!) There’s a reason why SalesForce is making a profit: people can’t keep track of everything by themselves.

      At this point–you need a system to do some of that juggling for you; it’s completely unreasonable to expect you to keep all of that straight on your own. This might be as simple as a spreadsheet to a simple project management suite; people should be consulting THAT instead of you. (I say spreadsheet; you don’t have time to develop anything else right now–in the future, you can get something that could conceivably email automatic updates to people.) Make sure to let people know that you cannot be interrupted 20+ (!) times a day. Perhaps even have “office hours” if stuff is really getting hit by delays caused by people checking in. It’s perfectly reasonable for people to want to check in, but perfectly unreasonable to have that many interruptions in a day–so give them a way to do it that doesn’t destroy your concentration. People probably know you’re busy but likely don’t have a full grasp of HOW CRAZY your schedule is. Other alternatives are: a daily standup meeting where people can ask questions like that or that information is reported; a daily email status; basically anything that gets the word out. (Another alternative: block off certain times every day for JUST work.) If you have a systems where people can get their own answers and teach them how to use it, they’ll generally use it since it’s faster than going to you. Frame it as you need to cut down on interruptions to get the work done but that you also understand it’s important to people to get this information.

      Start keeping something like a bullet journal so you can write down questions or tasks they’re assigned and have a visible record of what was said, then go over it. If you have a sticky note program on your computer, use it for things you need to remember quickly. Create a simple html page on your computer that lists out all the links you regularly use in systems. Pin often used programs, folders, and files to your toolbar if you’re using Windows if you’re not already. Do whatever efficiencies you can as quickly as possible. (You’re probably already using some of these, I suspect.)

      You’re not crazy and you’re not a bad fit for this role. In fact, you’re articulating exactly what’s getting in your way. You’re just doing too much juggling to be able to mentally keep it all in your head. You need to externalize as much of what you need to remember as possible to reduce how much is on your working memory.

      I’d say if you can’t figure out or aren’t allowed to put some sort of tools in place to manage interruptions and workloads like I’ve outline above, then you should consider a new job. You gotta take care of yourself if your company won’t. They also have to learn that they need to manage people’s workloads better. Good luck!

  239. Anxa*

    It’s Saturday, so I may ask tomorrow, but:

    I’m wondering if I should quit my job for another part-time job. I have been here for 15 months, which isn’t long but I’m the most veteran (actually, I might be the only one) person in my position. I’m a ‘temp,’ although I’m never required to take time off. It’s not really a temp position, just temp as in not eligible for benefits. I work in higher ed, but I work with tutoring and instructional support, so it’s the norm in my field. It’s similar to adjuncting in many ways.

    Well, I started a program at the same school at which I work. I cannot adjunct because I don’t have a master’s, but my supervisors keep insisting that I keep applying (they know I may leave if I can’t find a sustainable employment situation).

    I have a degree, so financial aid is minimal (all loans). I’ve been encouraged by many to apply for scholarships, but my undergraduate performance is horrible. I feel like I’m not academically competitive for merit scholarships, am not overcoming adversity, but I am low-income (In 10 years since graduation, I have never made anything close to a living wage…I’m just incredibly lucky that I have been able to live with family).

    There are some scholarships available through my school, but employees aren’t eligible. I feel like I’m, once again, slipping through cracks. I’m not eligible for the education benefits the benefit class workers make, but I am not ineligible for institutional scholarships. I’m not competitive for scholarships outside the school, either.

    So I’m thinking of quitting my job for something else with similar pay. But I really like my commute (not ideal, but doable through both carpooling and public transit), don’t want to have yet another job that doesn’t add much taking up room on my resume, and like my job overall. Also, I’m the only instructional support professional/tutor with significant availability right now for my subject. I hate to leave mid-semester.

    Any advice on how to explain why I quit my job in future interviews if I take this route, knowing that the scholarships are still a gamble?

    Any advice on managing resentment over this? I know in higher ed it’s normal for the most benefits to go to the jobs which are the least specific to education, because those are the employees that have more options for their skill sets outside of college. But I still can’t help but feel shitty about it. I like to think my job matters, and students think my job matters, but I know I have little leverage here, and employees like me are never going to be actively persuaded to stay from the top levels. It just makes me so sad to know how many other employees are eligible for benefits I’d love so much. I love my job sometimes, but I go through phases of feeling like a fool for getting attached to to it, knowing I’m so expendable.

    1. Anony*

      I think you can explain quitting simply by listing it as a temp position on your resume. Those are not supposed to last years (although as you have pointed out, some employers abuse it). As far as resentment, can you start reframing it in your mind as a temp position? Being classified as temp but treated as a regular employee in all ways but benefits is frustrating. I’m sorry I can’t be more helpful about that. The situation really sucks and your feelings about it are normal.

  240. Catherine*

    I’m about to finish graduate school and looking to find a full-time job, but facing a bit of a conundrum. I work in a creative field where my particular skill set (let’s say teapot painting) is difficult to break into and is not likely to pay the bills for quite some time. Ergo, I’ve also been well-trained and have had some experience working in a common adjacent job, let’s say teapot styling, and that’s the type of job I’m aiming to have as my full-time job while I continue my creative work. It’s a small enough industry that even those jobs are quite competitive. I recently stumbled across a job posting for an entry-level job in yet another adjacent field, teapot education and outreach, with a company that has a relatively good reputation. The problem is, I worry that a job in teapot education now will mean that I won’t have enough experience in teapot styling down the line to move into that sector of the industry, and I’ll be stuck in teapot education permanently. My finances are relatively secure at the moment, so I’m not starving and desperate for a job, but I definitely need to be finding one pretty soon. Can anyone shed some light on whether or not applying for a job in a related field will hurt me down the line, or if future employers might understand that, in our industry, jobs are hard to come by and I applied for whatever I could get? Thanks!

    1. SciDiver*

      Personally, I applied for a bunch of jobs only peripherally related to my actual field of Teapot research when I got done with school–teapot quality testing, teapot supplies management, teacup research, teapot policy, etc. I wouldn’t worry too much about this until you have an offer for a job in teapot education. The specifics of the job might make the choice for you (pay far below market level, hiring manager who raises your hackles, intolerable day-to-day tasks), but it’s also fairly understood that even in creative fields you can move around a bit. If you’re feeling stuck, could you reach out to an advisor or a contact within the industry to get their perspective?

      If you were to take a job in teapot education, you could easily explain your transition in future interviews: “I earned my masters in teapot painting and am looking to shift my focus to that area of the industry, but I spent some time in teapot education to gain a better understanding of the parts of the industry I was less familiar with when I graduated.”

  241. Ruth*

    I’m a teen applying for jobs, and I`m having trouble with filling out past employment. I delivered newspapers in the 7th grade, and because I was only 11-12, I depended heavily on my mother to make sure I could do my job(I delivered the papers myself, but she was the one who made sure I had them and could deliver them after school). I had to quit delivering because my mother became pregnant and couldn’t help us out anymore. That was 3 years ago. However, I`m not sure how to say this when job applications ask why I left the position. Any advice on what I should say?

    1. Nacho*

      I wouldn’t put anything you did in the 7th grade on your application. Most places that would hire a 16 year old probably understand that you don’t have much in the way of past employment.

    2. ..Kat..*

      I would put this on your application. Since it was only 3 years ago. It shows a work ethic. Why you left the position: Your transportation was no longer available.

  242. Mimi*

    Decided today after speaking with my partner that if I cannot find a new role (very tough to interview in secret due to the commute) by the time my probation period ends end of this month I will quiet and focus on job searching f/t. I don’t have a ton of savings but a talent for always quickly finding a new role due some unique-ish skills (although I am by no means “in demand” like an engineer or doctor). I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I started applying to jobs 1 week ago, for 3 interview requests but can only take one bc I can’t sneak off or keep coming up with excuses. Tuesday is my day to interview for a role 10 Miles from my house (1/4 of the commute from before). Pray 4 me everyone. I’ve never quit a job without having something lined up…

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