open thread – May 11-12, 2018

by Alison Green on May 11, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Sweet Summer Child*

    Best tips for surviving a toxic workplace, until you can leave? For me lately, when possible of course:

    Actually taking my lunch and going for a short walk.
    Listening to music or podcasts, while working and during commute.
    Planned a week-long vacation in the fall and other short weekend trips, to have something to look forward to.
    Setting some boundaries with folks I do not actually work for, who try to dump their work on me.
    Going to look through our benefits, to make sure I’m making the most of everything while I’m still here.
    Working on a plan B career path, which is part of my unhappiness and likely, in part, why I chose this place (but they still suck).
    Stopped volunteering for things and avoiding situations where I can be ambushed.
    Leaving on time.

    Maybe I’ve thought of just about everything… One friend recommended farting in the boss’ office whenever possible… lol…

      1. Lorelai Gilmore*

        I quit my job last week and have said this at least 10 times since! It’s funny when the toxic people still try to control you when you’re in your last 2 weeks and onto bigger and better things. It really brings out the Dianne Lockart laugh in me. (google it if you don’t know it, it’s downright therapeutic!)

      2. H.C.*

        I use “not my circus, not my monkeys” so often with ExJobs and sometimes with current job, when it involves other teams I don’t report to ;)

    3. k.k*

      Try to detach yourself mentally from the situation. Like when people are being rude and nasty and such, don’t think of yourself as part of the conversation. Imagine that you’re an anthropologist observing and studying these strange people. So instead of being hurt or angered by a bosses bad behavior, you can just sit back and think, “Hmm…the alpha of the group seems agitated today.”

      1. dg*

        That was me at a dinner with my bosses last night! I’m quitting next week and just kept staring down the middle of the table, thinking of my freedom.

      2. Leela*

        i pretend I’m playing D&D and the worst ones are NPCs that our party is dealing with:)

        1. 41 days left @ toxic job*

          I use situations from books and pretend I’m a character. A holdover from when I was a kid, but it totally works!

          1. 41 days left @ toxic job*

            I work on my exit memo every chance I get! It’s good to be reminded of how much I actually do and remind myself that I’m leaving

    5. EditorInChief*

      That’s a great list. Remember that you can’t control how other people behave, you can only control how you respond to them.

    6. Alternative Person*

      Permitting yourself to (discreetly) roll your eyes/wave your hands hopelessly/ perform any other gesture that expresses your feelings as appropriate/(this can include having a good chuckle related to any schadenfreude).

      Picking what you can do in terms of your work product and letting other things go as much as possible.

      If your co-workers are messy and it won’t cause big problems, tidy up indiscriminately.

    7. Cruciatus*

      This was me last year. All those things sound good. I was a front desk person so I couldn’t get out a lot, but when I had any opportunity I took it. “Oh, you need that to go to HR right away but it’s storming outside?–No problem!” I was able to not think about the job when I was not there (well, I literally thought about how much I dreaded it every day, but I mean that I was not paid to check emails or anything of that nature outside of work so I did not). Maybe you can leave work at work as well.

      Applying to other jobs helped because it helped me realize it was just temporary. I WOULD get out. And I finally I did. I gave a month’s notice, which, NEVER AGAIN (well, at least, never again if I’m in a toxic place I’m trying to escape from. It helped knowing I was leaving, but OMG, that felt like forever–but that too finally passed).

    8. Sleepy baby*

      I would also say making the most out of your non work hours. At my last toxic job I spent all my time not at work, worrying about work. So really try to make fun plans with loved ones in the weekends and weekday evenings (yes weekdays can be social too!). On a particularly bad day, think about what nice thing you’re going to do for yourself when you get home – even if you only have a half hour of free time, that’s still a half hour to read a couple chapters of a good book or to call your best friend.
      Just repeat the mantra – work is not life, work is not life.

      1. LDP*

        This is what’s helping me deal with my toxic boss right now! I try to spend as much time as I can with people who make me laugh and make me feel valued. Even if your workplace doesn’t do those things for you, your friends and family will be there to remind you that you’re not stupid or worthless.

    11. Argh!*

      I write glassdoor.com reviews, but I don’t post them. Feels just as good, and no worries that I’ll be found out.

    12. Naptime Enthusiast*

      I’ve turned into my father and have full conversations with myself during my commute, either as practice for upcoming tough convos or responding to something the way I really WANTED to, rather than the office acceptable way.

      It might look crazy to the other people on the road but it does relieve stress!

      1. Sunflower*

        Haha I’ve become this person as well. I take the subway/walk so I turn my phone off and put my headphones in and pretend I’m on the phone having a conversation about what I’m pissed about or just need to vent about! It helps a little bit for me.

      2. Artemesia*

        I am so pleased that phone technologies now mean that when I talk to myself while driving, it just looks like I am on blue tooth, or speaker phone, or have my earbuds in with my Iphone. Nah. Just talking to myself.

      3. Nic*

        I’ve done this all my life, and it really helps script stuff out and give practice at saying it aloud.

        Glad to know I’m not alone!

    13. Antilles*

      Remind yourself why you’re there: Yes, those few hours a day may suck, but your eight hours of shoveling monkey dung are earning you the money to allow you to enjoy what you really like, [sports/Netflix/underwater basketweaving/your hobby here].

    14. AnonEMoose*

      Make up a private (maybe strictly mental) bingo card with the most common horrible behaviors you experience. And when you get a “bingo” you get yourself a small treat. It doesn’t matter what it is, as long as it’s something you enjoy doing. A new paperback or Kindle book; go to a movie…whatever works for you.

        1. Anomanom*

          When I had to wait tables to make ends meet, a coworker and I had a really solid restaurant bingo game that we had half the staff involved in on any given night. It makes the soul sucking time go faster.

      2. Buu*

        One toxic workplace, my coworker and I had a secret timer that timed how long our supervisor spent walking around chatting. If it hit certain numbers we would dish out treats for ourselves.

        You may also want to find a token a small subtle thing that reminds you of one of the nice trips you have planned or your exit strategy. Each time you look at it, you can see a little sign of resistance for all the world to see , what they actually see is a postcard, small cactus, or a small plastic pen holder; but you know the truth.

    15. Info Architect*

      I recommend this book (link in name). I have no ties to the author or publisher, but I think it might help. Your current strategies seem to be working. Hope you find something soon!

    16. BenAdminGeek*

      I also found that taking PTO on Wednesdays was really nice. It made each week seem like 2 short weeks of “just gotta get through 2 days”

    17. MtnLaurel*

      Leaning on sane friends, both at work and outside of work.
      Periodic check ins to remind yourself that this is not normal.
      Fantasizing about getting away.
      Taking joy in the small ways you can find. Actively looking for it.
      Take (mental) notes for the tell all book you will write when you’re out. :-)

    18. LizW*

      One friend recommended farting in the boss’ office whenever possible…
      My husband does this.

      1. Bananka*

        To be clear, does the boss routinely do this to the husband on purpose ? If not, then it’s even beyond stooping to the toxic level of the workplace. The only word I am coming up with is disgusting.

    19. Secretary*

      Allow yourself to become obsessed with finding the right next job. It’s really easy to get distracted from a toxic work environment and allow yourself to be exhausted/ill. Apply as much as possible and be choosy with your choices. Also read Ask A Manager all the time and go through the archives for resume and cover letter tips!

    20. A Person*

      All of these things help tremendously!

      Also: keep documentation of your accomplishments to inspire you to seek jobs worthy of your talent.

      And keep documentation of potential trouble just in case you need it someday.

    21. Keep Your Eyes On The Prize*

      Pay special attention to the good co-workers Even in a toxic workplace there are usually a few who appreciate an ally in all the shenanigans surrounding them.

    22. Oxford Coma*

      I hum Kid Rock’s FOAD under my breath while mentally reciting the words. It has a pretty melody that sounds pleasant and makes anyone who can hear me think I’m in a good mood, and it’s enough of a deep cut that most people don’t know what it is.

    23. HR Recruiter*

      I think that’s a good list. I also daydreamed of what crazy things I would do on my last day and who I would tell off. ( I of course behaved perfectly on my last day but its fun to dream!)

    24. RR*

      It may sound counter-intuitive, but try not to vent, and avoid others when they are venting. I found that my colleagues and I ended up just saying the same (albeit true) things over and over. It didn’t fix anything, and after a while, it just adds to the negative energy. Focus on what you can do, practice detachment, and try to be thankful for what is good (or at least not dreadful) about your job — even if it’s just, hey, it pays the rent and the paychecks aren’t bouncing…. Try to leave work at work. Good luck!

      1. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        This is really good advice. There is a lot of research these days that venting is not actually a good thing — it just brings you and everyone around you into a downward spiral: You vent, they agree. They share a story in return, it reinforces your story. The result is even more ammunition for getting angry next time.

        One piece of advice I’ve seen is to write things down in a journal instead because it forces you to slow down your thinking a bit and also, maybe once you see what you’re so worked up about on paper, it’ll help you to come up with solutions, or confront your own responsibility.

    25. AeroEngineer*

      Yep, this is how I am surviving as well, especially the vacations and the leaving on time. My workplace has gotten more toxic/sexist (only female on an all male engineering team) now that they have ‘gotten used to me’, so I have been using these same tips. My required resigning notice is a month here, though I will give more notice to allow my tiny team (who are awesome) some time to find a new person.

      A big thing is that I don’t even think about work when not at work, when I leave the office I have checked out completely. I take lots of walks and really try to fill my free time with things I enjoy so that I feel less like I am just wasting away at work.

      1. Bumbly Bee*

        Such a comfort to read the initial post AND this one from a fellow gal engineer. I got a weird atmosphere happening at work stemming from politics and annoying guys on my team, including a slimeball who one day will talk about an NPR podcast and the next day will casually throw in that his promotion paperwork is going through, while I’ve been told to specifically stop asking about mine (I could go on about the politics around promotions and the lack of them for women in my dept. but I won’t because it’s not gonna change anything and because I am writing on a Saturday). All in all, grateful to read about others’ helpful survival strategies that I will be sure to implement ASAP.

        1. AeroEngineer*

          Ugh, that also sounds terrible. My main issue is that a lot (most, perhaps all) of the people at my job have only worked at this company, and the environment is very lax to the point they are able to push the barrier quite far (and they don’t have good habits from having come from other companies). I always make the joke that I work with 12 year old boys, as a lot of days it feels like that.

          I am afraid a bit to move on to a new environment, but I am praying that if I return to the country I have done a lot of internships in and to a larger company and to a team which I am 100% sure has had female engineers on it who have gone on a career path I want, I will be able to avoid something this bad.

          I am just hoping that something pans out in the next weeks/months, as I would like to move on around Oct/Nov, but all I hear are crickets, or can’t find any openings in the field I want to be in. But as I haven’t been rejected yet from my first choice position (they are required to change the status in the system if that occurs at this company, so I would actually know), I’m still hoping it will pan out.

    26. anony anon mc anon*

      I try to think of things similar to the anthropologist studying human behavior, but I think about how it would be a great SNL skit/sketch comedy. My co-worker would be a great character. Other than that, I always say 3 positive things that the day brought- even if it’s just “nice weather”. I also try to think of the positive side of people and surround myself with those people. If there’s no one (like in last toxic job), then I call/text loved ones. Plan fun things during the weekend so you give yourself something to look forward to or something small- treat yourself to dinner out,dessert, etc.

      I have been really stressed and venting this week, so I’m trying to take all of this advice as well. Try not to dwell on things, etc. I hope you can find your way out and on to a more positive place!

    27. Purple Rain*

      Start something to look forward to outside work – like a monthly meetup for board games or a craft circle. The arts! Sample community theatre, choirs, orchestra. Take an interest class or workshop like learning to draw.

    28. Jemima Bond*

      Do you have a fun hobby or pastime? I find a very good way of avoiding getting too stressed about work stuff is to leave it very determinedly at the office door when I leave, and start thinking about something fun. I’m planning my next quilting or dressmaking project before I even get out of the main gate!

    29. Not So NewReader*

      Good self-care can help give you mental strength to withstand the bs flying about. This means proper rest, go to bed on time and if you cannot sleep read something positive or uplifting. Keep the book beside your bed because you know there will be days when settling in for the evening is too hard. It also means hydration and good meals. Regular walks are amazing at blowing out cobwebs and clearing up the thought patterns. Even a 15 minute walk on a regular basis will help.

      Tell yourself that you are letting them sharpen you for your next job. A good chunk of any job is communication. So how do you handle communication? Big topic, we could write books here. My go-to was to play a straight game. Drama Lama came at me with a river of bs, I would take the drama and break it into manageable, logical parts. Sometimes insisting on logic is enough to break up some issues. “Sue is a b!tch, she won’t let me do x!” My reply, “Did you even ASK her?” I could count on hearing NO. “Well, you should go ask her. You have a valid point about x and here is why. [Reasons 1,2 and 3]. I think if you run down these reasons you might gain some ground.” What happened next is they would either go talk to Sue OR they would stop coming to me with their issues.

      You can also make a list of generic go-tos, such as “There are no perfect workplaces” or “There are no perfect bosses” these things are helpful when people get a little too far out on the deep end. You can tell yourself or tell them these things.

      If you have a boss or cohort who changes plan midstream and you KNOW this is their habit then you can repeat back to them what they are saying. “So you want x then y then z, right?” When they come to you half way through y and ask you where z is, you can say, “I don’t have z. This is why I asked you to confirm you wanted x then y then z. And you said that was right.” People don’t like hearing their own words back, it usually causes them to rethink what they are saying.
      Watch where you are putting your time and energy. Can x be fixed? If no, then let it go, move on to something you stand a chance of getting fixed.
      To me, I think that spending time at home finding ways to search smarter for a new job is equally important. Toxic workplaces can drain us. Try to simplify some at home tasks so you have more time and energy to handle the job search. This can be anything, more crockpot meals or hiring someone to mow the lawn, whatever you think is going to lighten your load for the moment.

    31. Duffel of Doom*

      This is great! The one I’m about to try out is volunteering- my absolute dream job (animal rescue related) doesn’t pay enough for me to do for real, so I’m going to do it for fun. It’ll be good experience and hopefully a nice mental break from my toxic office.

    32. Cute Li'l UFO*

      Steal all the good candy out of the treat dishes.
      Imagine your sweet, sweet freedom and how good it’s going to feel, how light your soul will be.
      Imagine yourself vindictively shaking every single soda in the free drink fridge on your last day.

      I kept reminding myself “Your options are ‘Continue’ or ‘Tough it out!'” in my last awful contract. I took the inspiration from the final boss of Kirby 64 where if you pause the “retry” option is replaced with “Tough it out!”

      It really gave me a lot of hope, oddly enough.

    33. Quickbeam*

      The benefit thing is HUGE. So many people pass up real value to their lives by not knowing what they are entitled to in that arena. At my company we can get free passes to ball games, opera, museums, the zoo…just by asking. You can also get an interest free loan to buy a home computer. Most people don’t even know about it. Also explore your health insurance. I was astonished to find out my company pays 100% for mental health counseling. Who can’t use that!!

    34. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Good ideas:
      1. If you’re really stuck for the foreseeable future — try to make your space really happy with photos, plants, chair cushions or a chair blanket, cute wall or desk calendar, magnets or push pins, desk toys…
      2. If you are close to leaving — start taking stuff home discretely so that you feel less and less connected. That way, when you do quit, you can just grab your jacket and go.
      3. Make sure you have a personal back up of things you need and are legally allowed to have like evaluations and anything you have signed. It’s better to have it and not need it, than it will be to try to get it later.
      4. If you’ve ever accessed any personal accounts like email or FB from a company computer — change any passwords; in fact just change them anyway just to be safe.

      Evil ideas: Depends on how many people are toxic… if it’s everyone and not just 1-2 people
      1. Go on an all fish diet, 2-3 small meals a day, and use the office microwave liberally.
      2. Farting in the boss’ office is good, but spread it around to elevators, stairwells and the breakroom

    35. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Weekend trips every month or two have been saving my sanity for the last year and a half. There are months when the only way I can get through a workweek is by counting days to the next weekend trip.

      I have also identified a few people who, when they send you a request, take your prompt answer as an invitation to send a new request/expansion of the old request five minutes later… and again… and again… and can go all day. So now, when I get something from one of them that isn’t a legitimate emergency, I type up the answer, sit on it all day, then when I am ready to leave, I hit Send and IMMEDIATELY shut the computer down and leave for the day. Works like a charm. I first learned to do it with someone at an OldJob ten years ago, and just recently remembered this helpful technique. Worked then, and still works now.

    36. Ladylike*

      Don’t take things personally – recognize that you’re not responsible for the rantings and whims of crazy people. Take care of yourself physically to offset the physical effects of stress. This is HUGE and I cannot emphasize it enough – I learned the hard way. Get plenty of sleep, exercise and eat right, and make a point to do things that bring you joy and help you relax. Try to view your job as a means to an end – a paycheck and benefits, but not something that you should emotionally invest in. I hope you get out quickly!

    37. Jules*

      Plan a Disney vacation… You’ll get so sucked into it. Then every time something happens, you can think Disney and feel better.

    38. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      My big one is to remember who you are. You can’t control the toxic people – you can’t make them like you; you can’t make them have better values; you can’t please them – but you can act based on the person you choose to be. So if you are polite, it’s because you are someone who is polite – not because you think you can appease the angry, toxic people. If you are professional, it’s because that’s who you are – not because you secretly hope you’re going to make them ashamed of themselves. If you do good work and show up on time, that’s because the person you want to be has pride in their work – not because you think that if you keep giving, you will win them over.

      Another way to put it would be to say that we use the people around us like a mirror. It’s totally normal to calibrate your values and your behavior off other people. It is mostly a good thing! But at a bad job, you can’t do that, because bad bosses and bad coworkers will reflect back an ugly, distorted version of you. They will try to break you down or make you adopt their bad values and bad habits – and if they can’t do that, they will try to keep you reacting to them. At bad job, you have to look inside yourself and check in against your own values and your own identity.

      This is easier as you get older, and it is easier if you have good people in your life outside work.

  2. JokeyJules*

    Y’all,
    Does anyone have any suggestions on “politely encouraging” fellow coworkers to wash their own dishes? The most common excuse is “oh, I forgot those were mine are you sure those are mine?”
    No, the dish fairy must have left them behind just like the dish fairy’s twin sister who washes them for you after they sit there for 2 weeks.
    I sit closest to the sink and it smells nasty, and I’m the admin assistant, so I think my coworkers expect me to just do them because they think they are busier and their time is more important. Except I was not hired to be a dishwasher, and I have a lot to do, myself.
    Anyone have any tips? Suggestions? Commiseration stories to share?

        1. Artemesia*

          Me too. When they start to stink bin them, but not when anyone can see you do it. When the office has no more dishes, problem solved.

    2. Starryemma*

      If the actual dishware is personal dishware (vs owned by the company) you could consider sending out a message that you’re doing a “sink cleanout” every Friday (or every first Friday, or whatever), and that you’ll be throwing away any dishes remaining in the sink at that time, to avoid pests, etc, and ask people to please come collect their dishes beforehand.

      If it’s communal dishware that’s being left, you could consider getting rid of it, if you’re able, to eliminate the possibility of people using and then not washing. It’s not environmentally friendly, but your company could switch to paper or plastic plates.

      1. Long Time Reader, First Time Poster*

        This is good except…. OP is then in charge of doing the cleanout. Taking ownership of that is just a step away from taking ownership of doing the darn dishes in the first place, so I’d avoid that.

        1. Starryemma*

          It sounds like she’s bothered by the smell. Another option would be to do nothing (or to post signs, which I’ve seen have varying levels of effectiveness), but then the smell still remains.

        2. Seriously?*

          Throwing them away is less gross than actually washing them. And it discourages people from abandoning them in the future so after the first couple times I would be surprised if there was much at all there.

          1. JokeyJules*

            what’s weird is that it’ll be 2 mugs and 7520348750792834523 forks, spoons. and butter knives.
            I recognize that those are a pain in the butt to clean sometimes, which is why i stock disposable cutlery as well.

            1. Former Govt Contractor*

              Please choose compostable disposable cutlery – easily obtained on Amazon – for environmental reasons. Thanks.

            2. ..Kat..*

              Is there a scrub brush and dish soap to make it easier for people to do their dishes? And a drying rack?

        4. Logan*

          Agreed with Seriously?:
          Washing and tossing are not equivalent to me – throwing them out is much faster, and those dishes won’t be clean and ready to be dirtied again so the problem quickly resolves itself.

      2. PlanterFacetous*

        End of week? End of day ! Who leaves their dishes in the office sink for a whole week? If they didn’t remember it on the day they did it, or the following days, they are not likely to remember on Friday. Extra days aren’t going to help them remember.
        No need to let the smell marinate.

        1. ExceptionToTheRule*

          Everybody I’ve ever worked with does this. Tossing them is my boss’s preferred & recommended method of dealing with the problem. He may or may not send out a note in advance.

          1. Midge*

            Sending a note is just common courtesy. I think I’ve left my personal mug sitting in the dish rack once or twice in the year I’ve been at my current job. But if my boss happened to pick one of those days and threw out my favorite mug, well I’d be pretty mad about that.

            1. bmore pm*

              the question isn’t about clean dishes left in the dish rack, it’s about dirty dishes in the sink, so sounds like your mug would be safe.

      3. essEss*

        This should be a daily throwout, not weekly. Dishes in an office have no business sitting dirty in the sink overnight. They need to be cleaned before the employee (the one that dirtied them) leaves for the day.

      4. essEss*

        You should also speak to the managers… cleaning up after yourself is a basic job duty. If someone is consistently leaving dirty dishes in the sink, that’s a job performance issue and goes into their performance review and impacts bonuses and raises.

        1. Emily K*

          That may work for more junior levels, but I have a hard time envisioning a VP chastising a Director or a CEO chastising a VP for not washing their dishes in a performance review. Management isn’t going to risk losing someone who is successfully managing a 6- or 7-figure budget and exceeding their performance targets because they can’t be arsed to wash their dishes. People at those levels who are good at their jobs are often allowed to get away with things even when they’re clearly in the wrong because they bring too much value. You can still coach them, but docking their bonus or raise over dirty dishes is just going to drive them to a competitor who doesn’t care so much about dishes.

    3. Frankie Bergstein*

      My office has a sign above the sink letting us know not to leave our dishes on the sink or around the sink. We also have a periodic fridge clean out where if your food isn’t labeled with your name and a date, it just gets thrown out (container and all, if I’m not mistaken). Could a process of some sort be put in place for the dishes?

        1. beanie beans*

          Those kinds of messages always crack me up because my parents made me do my own damn dishes.

          2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

            We had a dishwasher, but I was still expected to rinse off my dishes and put them in the dishwasher.

            Funny(?) story: When I was a nanny I taught the kids the same thing when I was in the house. One time they asked me if I could be there at night since the parents had an event to get to. I said sure. When I walked in, the kids were finishing up dinner. They each got up, went to the sink, and rinsed their dishes off. The mom turned around, staring and said, “They NEVER do that!” I just shrugged and mentioned that I have them do it so they were probably just getting it out of the way.

        2. Oxford Coma*

          This would not work in my office; there are so many spouses and parent/child teams here!

        3. Former Admin Turned Project Manager*

          I used to work with my mom (same company and floor, different departments) and always laughed at those messages, since “But my mom DOES work here!” (and because she wouldn’t have cleaned up after me anyway).

      2. JokeyJules*

        we have a sign (that coincidentally has food splashed onto it)
        Not effective.
        We’ve had emails go out and everyone whines about Boss telling them to do their dishes like they are children.
        But the dishes still don’t get washed…

        1. MuseumChick*

          UGH. Why is it so hard for adults to be adults? Start a policy where any dishes left in the sink at the end of the day will be thrown away.

        2. Brooklyn99wasCancelled*

          If the company provides the dishes, then the company should have a system for taking care of the unwashed when the employees fail to do so. But if these are employees leaving their dirty personal items around, then the company is not obligated to clean them, or provide long term storage of the dirty items. Dirty items will be tossed. That’s it.

          1. Magee*

            WHAT?!? Brooklyn 99 is one of my favorite shows on the air right now! And I know it wasn’t doing too well before, but this season has been SOOO good. Sorry, I know this is off topic, I’m just really sad.

            1. Bea*

              They’re saying it may be picked up by another channel. So we just all need to hold hands and huddle until TBS or Netflix picks it up or just stand close enough to be kind of awkward and stare at each other, whichever works for me.

              1. LH*

                Picked up by NBC! Variety says it’ll be a 13 episode season, probably starting early 2019 :)

    4. Lucky*

      Hidden camera to catch the dish-leavers? Joking, but not. I would like to set up a camera in our kitchen just to capture data on the gender of people who unload the dishwashers. I have been here 3 years (today) and have seen a man do it exactly once.

      1. A Heather*

        I work with techies. There has been plotting of a side project to install cameras/sensors to “remind” people not to leave dishes in the sink. So far, it has not happened, but the problem is not actually that bad here, either.

      2. Nerfmobile*

        Oh yes. I worked at a tech startup for about 6 months. 30 people, and in that time, i’m not sure I ever saw anyone beside me, the head of operations, or the marketing assistant (3 out of the 4 women in the office) ever load or unload the dishwasher.

    5. Ashie*

      Can you eliminate places to set the dishes down? There’s no reason dishes shouldn’t be washed right away, no matter who they belong to. If there’s nowhere to put a dirty dish no one will leave them around.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, I like that; you may need to make sure there’s no draining space, either, but same principle–people can dry their stuff.

      3. Windchime*

        I was going to suggest this, also. We have a tiny kitchen at work and it stays amazingly clean. Once in awhile, someone will leave something soaking in the sink but for the most part, people wash their dishes right after eating. I’m thinking it’s because there is literally no room for even a dish rack on the counter. These are all personal dishes; there are no communal dishes.

        Previous workplace instructed housekeeping to throw away any dishes left in the sink at night.

    6. Kristinemc*

      I saw a sign in an office once that said “Treat your dishes like you treat your partner – don’t let others do them.”

      I’m not sure how effective it was, but it made me laugh.

    7. Seriously?*

      Are these company owned dishes or personal dishes? If they are personal dishes then a blanket rule of any unclaimed dishes will be thrown out at X time every day could work. If they are company dishes, then look into whether they can be gotten rid of altogether since they are being abused. Having dishes is convenient but being overrun by dirty dishes is horrible.

      1. JokeyJules*

        they are dishes donated by staff for communal purposes.
        So nobody claim’s ownership of the dishes… or their mess.

        1. MuseumChick*

          Do away with the communal dishes. Then if anything is left in the sink my end of the day it gets thrown away.

          1. Seriously?*

            I agree. An e-mail that says any dirty dishes in the sink will be thrown away at the end of the day should do it. If anyone cares, they can wash them. Otherwise, you are throwing away dishes that everyone has claimed to not own and not use.

        2. E*

          This is the inherent issue with communal dishes. If there’s no schedule or agreement between those who use the dishes for who will clean them/put away, it’s likely at times that no one will. I agree, do away with the communal dishes if the problem persists.

          1. Totally Minnie*

            I once worked in an office where each work group was assigned KP for a week at a time. People grumbled, but eventually the kitchen was more consistently clean than it had ever been before. Everyone hated being on kitchen duty, so they all tried to make it so there was less work to do overall.

            1. E*

              Sounds like a good system. If folks just took turns keeping the minimum done (dishes washed/dried/put away) and then wipe down a surface or something similarly small during their week, it would keep the whole kitchen in better shape. Without the hassle of deep cleaning.

        3. Samata*

          Yes, be done with the communal dishes. We had to do it with coffee mugs at my old job because people couldn’t be bothered to rinse them out.

        4. Bea*

          Yep. Throw them away. THROW THEM ALL AWAY. Nobody is taking ownership, they’re trash. They’ll cry about it and then you say “Well you couldn’t take care of your mess, it’s called consequences.”

          Just like cleaning a child’s room by throwing their things away because they can’t take care of them.

        5. DDJ*

          Could you mention that the sink is technically also an eye wash station for the office and as such, needs to be kept clear? Make it a safety issue? Depending on your site, it might actually BE qualified as an eye wash station. That’s how it is in our office – we had a safety audit and I was asked where the eye wash stations were located, and I said we didn’t have any.

          That’s when I learned that all sinks can be eye wash stations, they don’t need to be those fancy ones.

          Just saying, it might be a way to sort of…escalate the issue a bit.

          Or you assign kitchen duty. That’s what we did in one group I worked with, and it worked out well. Two people were assigned (to account for possible absences) each week, and the list was posted in the kitchen so that everyone could see who’s week it was. You were allowed to switch weeks, but it had to be changed on the posted schedule so that everyone could actually see who was responsible for it.

          Or you get rid of communal dishes altogether. That would be a last resort, but…people in offices can get really weird about dishes.

    8. Keep Your Eyes On The Prize*

      I did this with a messy roommate. I took all of her dirty dishes and stacked them in a dishpan and put it in a corner. It saved my sanity because then the sink was emptied of weeks old greasy dishes and I could use it again. The worst part was she never noticed but at least I wasn’t looking at them every time I came into the kitchen.

      1. RestlessRenegade*

        I too once had a roommate who was so messy, she’d leave garbage out for days, dirty dishes, etc. Once, after she’d had a party, me and the other two roommates put everything (dishes, trash) into a garbage bag and put it in front of her door. Probably not the nicest thing to do to an 18-yo who was on her own for the first time, but we really could not function with that mess everywhere.

    9. Manager Mary*

      I throw out dishes in the sink at the end of the day. These are real dishes & flat ware. I don’t buy disposables. If we one day run out of the donated communal dishes, then someone will either donate more or that will be the end of the communal dishes. If you don’t want your personal dishes treated to the communal property rules, don’t put them in communal areas like the sink.

      It’s been VERY effective. People expect you do to the dishes… because you do them! People don’t expect me to do them because I don’t do them. When I started here people were like “omg, are you nuts, you just threw a FORK in the GARBAGE!” and I was like “are YOU nuts? You put a fork in the sink and walked away like you don’t understand what the sink is for, so now you don’t ever get to use this fork again. You can keep watching me throw your forks out until there aren’t any more forks, or you can learn to wash your own forks.” And guess what? Everyone either learned to wash their own forks or they started bringing their own disposables.

      I say skip the polite encouraging. This isn’t a pep rally; this is adulthood. Do your own dishes or lose the dishes. Easy peasy lemon squeezy!

    10. Leela*

      I used to work at an office and we actually had to send out reminder e-mails that our admin staff was not our cleaning staff, because everyone automatically expected them to be. It didn’t fully take care of the problem but cut it down by a good 75/80 %? I hope that’s helpful. I hate that offices tend to assume that admin people are dishwashers, good luck with this one!

    11. Sarah*

      Toss them. I’m an early morning person and would stop in on my way to the gym drop my work things at my desk and throw away all dirty dishes left in the sink from the day before. It was much easier than being the clean police.
      People who value their dishes will start washing and taking them to their desk. Also a dryer sheet in the trash helps.

    12. Goya de la Mancha*

      We gave up on politely encouraging. We now just have a sign that says “Your mom doesn’t work here, clean up after yourself”

    13. Traveling Teacher*

      Commiseration!

      At one school I worked at, several years ago now, there were a ton of communal dishes. Dozens of odd plates, mugs, and cutlery teachers had brought to the school when they’d replaced theirs. At the end of September, the dishsoap ran out, and no one replaced it (I did not use the communal dishes because I hate communal sponges, but the sink and open shelving for the dishes was in the teacher’s breakroom). It perhaps bears mentioning that this particular school was located in an economically depressed area and had a lot of big, systemic problems we were dealing with. The sink perhaps became a visual metaphor for the broken system.

      At first, people would rinse the dishes, then leave them in the sink. Then they started accumulating. By the end of October, there were no clean dishes, and there were two-three dishtubs full of dirty, unrinsed dishes under the sink. Still no dishsoap.

      At this point, I had a mug, sponge I’d cut into four tiny pieces, and a bottle of dishsoap (I was at four different schools and kept a mug and sponge piece at each one). I kept all this on a high shelf at the end of the corridor, labeled in a container with my name on it. (I was of course using instant coffee at this school, rather than the coffee maker…)

      At some point in October, a frustrated colleague borrowed my dishsoap and took it upon herself to wash the dishes. Absolutely not problem from me–I was relieved! And she even replaced the soap. She refused to carry on washing everyone’s dishes after a couple of weeks, and no one else started washing their own dishes, so the situation reproduced itself quickly.

      In December, the same colleague removed the rotting dishes from the sink and floor and put them back on the open shelf. We’re talking dishes encrusted with old tomato sauce, rotting bits of vegetables–utterly disgusting.

      The cleaning lady told the principal that she was contracted for bathrooms, floors, windows, and table surfaces only–we were on our own with the breakroom sink, as it was for personal, rather than public, use. Fair enough. This is France, and people take their contracts and contracted work very seriously.

      In February, there was an inspection, and someone bought paper plates, cups, and cutlery for the inspectors. I assume the same person had the good sense to throw a sheet over the offending shelf.

      It was around this time that my mug went missing. I finally saw another teacher using it, and he remarked, “Oh, I forgot you were here today. I only use your mug on the days you’re out!” Reader, I am fairly certain, judging by the dirty mug pile in the corner of his classroom of at least 20 mugs, that he had not washed out my mug but only rinsed it!!!

      I told him to keep it and invested in a high quality thermos.

      Denouement: In June, a new cleaning lady replaced the old one. I discovered her in the breakroom, up to her elbows in those filthy, filthy dishes, washing them in several waters, muttering to herself about the “Cochonneries des bourges” (literally: “piggeries of the bourgeois”) and wondering whether any of us had the “sense to wipe our own a**es!”

    14. Umvue*

      This isn’t an immediately-practical suggestion for most people, but I will say that in one job I had, the kitchenette had a dishwasher, and the kitchen was basically never gross. It was a small office, so we only ran the dishwasher once a week, but that was enough to keep the communal plates and mugs clean — and the fact that there was an easy and fast thing to do with dirty dishes meant that everyone did that thing. It made me wonder why more office kitchens don’t have dishwashers. They really aren’t that expensive.

      A related fact: when I started at that company I would frequently observe the Director unloading the dishwasher on Monday morning. I loved that, because a man in a leadership position doing it sent the signal that, as a junior woman, it would not be a career-limiting move for me to do it once in a while if I happened to be the first to the office on Mondays. This is in contrast to my previous boss at another organization, who left her nasty-ass crusty oatmeal mug in the sink every damn day as a monument to her own status. Leaders, wash your ****ing dishes.

  3. August*

    Hello everyone! I know there’s quite a few former AmeriCorps members here, so I’m hoping I can get some advice. I’m currently coming up on the end of my term as a VISTA, and I can’t decide if I want to go for a second year as a VISTA or try to find a full-time job in my field. Some relevant factors:

    1) I majored in Political Science and Eastern European languages at school (so….not super employable), and I’m primarily looking for work with nonprofits, higher education institutions, or the US government. Subsequently, there’s not a ton of relevant work in my rural hometown. If I want a job in my field, I’ll have to move.
    2) The second-year VISTA positions I’m applying to are a commutable distance from my house (I live with my parents, so I don’t pay rent). So, if I go with VISTA, I’ll be able to save 90% of my living stipend and put it towards my loans.
    3) A lot of people around me have been encouraging me to look into graduate school. Considering how substantial my student debt is right now, I’d only be able to get a Master’s if it’s completely paid for. A year-long term with VISTA would give me time to look into grad schools and apply for scholarships.

    Really, my biggest reservation with VISTA is that I’m considering a second year because it’s comfortable: I’d be able to stay in my hometown with my family, get more time to be indecisive about my future, my student loan payments wouldn’t immediately come crashing down on me, and I wouldn’t have to worry about a “real job” yet.

    But, simultaneously, I’m wondering if I’m so hesitant about VISTA because it’s not a “real job”; I also have a part-time food service job, and I’m always a little ashamed when people ask about my future, when I graduated, what I’m doing, etc. Rationally, I know it’s not a big deal, but living with my parents and working two jobs is a little embarrassing for me.

    Any thoughts? I’d love to hear about how everyone’s job search went after VISTA, what made you decide to commit to a second VISTA term, etc.

    1. Jess R.*

      I did AmeriCorps (but not VISTA) so I can’t speak to the VISTA experience specifically, but I say go for that second year, so long as you like the work you’re doing. The financial aspect is a huge one, and giving you some time to make careful next-steps decisions is also super worthwhile!

      I didn’t stay a second year in my AmeriCorps program, although I could have — technically, I mean. I hated the work, so staying would have ripped my soul to shreds, but the option was there. I don’t regret not staying, but I do regret jumping into the first job I could find after AmeriCorps because I was so desperate for a change. It wasn’t remotely the right fit for me, and I think if I’d had more time to process and make plans, I would have made better plans.

    2. Mobuy*

      Also, don’t go to graduate school unless a) you want to, b) you can afford it, and c) it will help you with your future plans. It sounds like you are sort of rudderless (not really big problem in itself) so you are looking for something to do. Since you’ve been going to school basically your whole life, it makes sense that you’d go back to what you know. Really make sure graduate school will be good for you if you go!

      1. Jess R.*

        Strong, strong agree! My dad’s a PhD in physics, and when I was talking to him about how I might go to grad school, he said you have to really want the work, not just the end product. You have to really want the process or you’ll burn out so fast and make yourself miserable.

      2. GG Two shoes*

        +1000

        I have more than a couple friends who didn’t know what to do after their bachelors and got a masters just because. Now they have jobs they could have got with just a bachelors but with 25-40k more debt. A Master’s doesn’t guarantee a job.

      3. Kimberlee, no longer Esq*

        Also agree. Do not go to grad school unless you know what you want to do and you *need* grad school to break into it. Or, I mean, if you’re rich and just want to learn. That doesn’t seem to be the case here. :)

        1. Jules the Third*

          Or if you want to change career fields after a decade of checking out stuff.

          I did an MBA after a decade in retail mgmt / tech support / non-profit / web design. It paid for itself (including lost salary for going full time and not working) within 4 years, and I found a career I really like (supply chain).

        2. David*

          FWIW a lot of PhD programs in the sciences (and maybe some non-science programs too, I’m not sure) pay you a stipend including a tuition waiver – basically you work for the university and earn a salary. So at least you don’t have to be rich in that case.

          But I totally agree with your advice in general.

          1. Julianne*

            My understanding may be incorrect, but I was under the impression that grad student stipends are usually pretty low (although I suppose it would probably still be more than AmeriCorps stipends).

            1. L*

              They are typically low. I went to a private university and mine was about $430/month (after taxes). That was back in 2000, but still. Oh, and I lived in Chicago at the time, so not a small college town with lower living expenses.

            2. Pangolin*

              It really depends on the field you’re in and where the funding’s coming from. I’m entering a grad program in engineering soon, and the stipend’s about $2500/month; it’s a significant step down from what I make in a regular (engineering) job, but still a very livable amount in the region. Not a thing to do if I were looking to get rich, though, and summer funding isn’t guaranteed after the first year.

              If you’re interested, the website in my name (or search ‘phd stipends’ if it didn’t work…) collects self-reported data on grad student stipend amounts.

      4. August*

        Thank you, this is a great tip! I definitely think I would love the experience of grad school (researching and writing papers is something I would do for a living, if I could), but I’m pretty certain that I’ll only go if it’s completely paid for, if I know for a fact that an advanced degree will contribute/relate to my career, and if I’ll be able to get relevant work experience while studying. It’s just figuring out all of those things is such a massive effort that I haven’t gotten anywhere with it, haha!

        1. Genny*

          I don’t know what type of work you’re looking for specifically, but don’t buy into the lie that you can’t get a government job without a masters degree. My first job out of undergrad I was a program assistant in a contract position for the government. There were four of us in the office who had the same job title, same responsibilities. The other three incumbents had their masters degrees. They basically paid $60,000 to get the same job I’d gotten out of undergrad (and BTW, the job only required an associates). I’ve since gotten two more contract jobs with the government, all without a masters degree, though I’d started my degree program prior to getting my current contract job). Having a clearance is far more important for getting gov jobs than a masters.

          1. August*

            I don’t know if it’s just that I’ve been looking in the wrong places, but most of the entry-level jobs I’ve seen in government and universities seem to require either a Master’s or 3-4 years of work experience, which has been a pretty big downer. I’ve mostly been struggling with the fact that I have very shallow experience in a lot of things (my current VISTA position has had me basically running a nonprofit alongside the founder), where most jobs seem to want more in-depth experience in several specific things. But, everyone here is right, I shouldn’t use grad school as a way to avoid confronting this.

            1. Midge*

              If you’re getting solid experience in your VISTA position that will help you with your future career goals, that is GOLD. That wasn’t my experience in AmeriCorps (I was basically a reading tutor), and that was a big factor in my decision to leave. It’s pretty rare for entry level jobs in general to give you that kind of experience. Staying another year where you would get more experience, learn more, and have more accomplishments could really help when you’re looking for a permanent position.

              1. Mobuy*

                Hey, reading tutor was my AmeriCorps experience also! White girl from Utah, here is an inner-city Birmingham school. Have fun! (Actually, it was a blast and I’m a teacher now, but your point is valid.)

            2. Genny*

              Contracting is a good way to get into the government with less experience, as are admin or admin-adjacent roles. You get the experience needed, learn more about what interests you, and then can decide whether or not you still want to pursue a direct-hire career with the government. I highly recommend it.

      5. Genny*

        Yes! If I had gone to grad school without obtaining any experience in my field, I wouldn’t have known which niche of international relations I want to pursue. I wouldn’t have been able to select a school that meets my needs (budget, schedule, prestige, majors, etc.) because I wouldn’t have had enough information about what I was even looking for in those areas. I wouldn’t have gotten as much use out of the program because I wouldn’t have had the experience to inform what I was learning. Only go to grad school when it becomes the logical next step in your career.

      6. Gingerblue*

        Hear hear! And even if you ultimately want to do grad school, August, a second year doing something that’s *not* school is not a bad idea. The people I’ve seen enter grad school with a bit of a gap between that and college are often better adjusted and more ready for the work load than those who go straight out of college. (I did grad school straight out of college, and I was still kind of burned out from my senior year right when I started. A year or two off between would have been good for me.)

      7. CC*

        I got my PhD and another thing I would add is never go into a PhD program that does not give you a full ride and a stipend.

    3. beanie beans*

      If I were in your shoes I’d go for the second year if you enjoy it! There’s totally nothing wrong with being indecisive about your future and needing some more time to think about it!

      And it’s definitely a real job in terms of getting great experience that will be transferable skills to any future job. I’d almost say another year of working experience would be great to have on the resume before getting a masters – lots of people leave their masters program with zero work experience and find themselves with a ton of debt, high salary expectations, and no work experience.

      Working two jobs sounds tiring, but if you like it and can handle it, don’t change just because you’re embarrassed – lots of people work multiple jobs and lots of people live with their parents for a while to save money! Anyone who shames you for that is a jerk.

      But this is such a personal decision – don’t let us sway you too much – go with your gut!

      1. August*

        Thank you! I definitely worry that I’m comparing myself to others too often– I have friends who are entering graduate school, and here I am working food service and living at home. It’s hard to separate that weird stigma from the knowledge that I’m getting real work experience.

        1. J.B.*

          A lot of entry level jobs want 1-2 years of experience. Basically because they can get it. What that means is they want someone who has been working for a bit but don’t expect you to be an expert in any area.

          There’s no reason not to stay in VISTA. You are getting work experience. Finances benefit you. If you want to go for a specific field after, really think during next year about what it is. Also get Alison’s free guide on interviewing. Look at job postings that interest you and think about how you would explain your current work experience to them.

    4. anna green*

      Don’t go to graduate school!! Well. I mean, go if you can see a clear path to how your degree will get you a good high paying job. But don’t go just because you’re not sure what to do. If you want to work in the non-profit world, more debt is not what you need. The only difference would be if you really want to go the higher education route, as a masters is probably important, but I dont know much about that world.

      I was in NCCC, so not Vista. I could see either path working for you. If you stay at VISTA another year and live with your parents, or if you get a regular job in your field and move away to where the jobs are. Will staying at VISTA another year add to your resume? If it’ll give you good experience and you want to then go for it. If it won’t add much, maybe its time to look for the next thing. Or apply to other jobs and see if you get anything and use VISTA as a backup? I dont know if thats logistically possible.

      1. Christy*

        More about the grad school comments. Completely agree.
        I almost went to grad school right out of undergrad because it seemed like a clear path, and many of my friends were doing that. Also, I’ll admit, part of my identity was tied up into being “the smart one” so the idea of having less degrees than my peers was part of the issue.
        I waited and I’m so glad.
        I worked for 5 years first in a couple of different areas (nonprofit – graphic design, local government- program management, state government – legislative) and then the path was really clear. I went part time to grad school (while work helped pay for it!) at a top 10 grad school in public policy which was lead to a very successful career and tripling my income now (which is 6 years after graduation). If I’d gone to grad school right away, I would have gotten it in a field I’ve realized I hate working in.
        I get that grad school may seem like the easy way if you seem a bit rudderless -but I’d encourage VISTA or look for other interesting positions for now while you figure it out. Also, as a hiring manager, we look at VISTA as a real job, so another year wouldn’t be a ding against you.

    5. Washi*

      I’m really glad you posted more details here, because your background is actually a lot like mine! I majored in polisci and Russian, then did AmeriCorps (but not VISTA) for two years after college. It was a pretty good choice for me – I didn’t save a ton (wasn’t living with parents) but I wanted to switch to the nonprofit field, so those two years gave me a good foundation for my next move. I think there can be huge benefits to staying – I got to build on my projects and really see some good results, which gave me more skills and credibility in the field, and if you’re living with your parents, the financial aspect isn’t as tough. I ended up then staying at my organization for another year as a staff member, then moving to a different org after that. Never had a lot of trouble getting interviews, so I think staying for two years really helped.

      What field are you looking to move into? I now work with Russian-speakers in the social work field and LOVE it :)

      1. August*

        Oh wow, what an amazing coincidence, I’m glad your AmeriCorps experience was helpful! Can you explain more about your job in social work? That sounds really interesting, although I’m not quite fluent in Russian, so I don’t know how far I’d get in any position like that!

        Part of what makes me hesitant to continue with AmeriCorps is that my project is ending this year (my project’s VISTA application wasn’t accepted, partially because my supervisor is a mess and made me write it the day it was due); if I want to continue, I’ll have to start as a Year 1 with a completely different project. Additionally, my current project is with a tiny, new organization with zero funding, so there’s really nothing to build on right now.

        1. Washi*

          I work basically as a geriatric care manager, and since my city has a large elderly Russian population that speaks very little English, my agency has a special program dedicated to working with them. You’d normally need an MSW for a job like this, but because it’s so hard to find people with the language skills, there are a couple of us who do the job without the MSW and are closely supervised by a licensed social worker. I help our clients access the resources they are entitled to, make appointments, and do home visits and phone calls to check on how they are doing. You do have to be pretty comfortable in the language though – I’m American, but have basically “heritage speaker” proficiency (I speak Russian like someone who grew up speaking Russian at home but never studied it at school , so basically I talk ok but don’t write very well.)

          If you’re interested in that kind of work, I would look into care management or jobs with supports planning agencies in cities with a large Russian or other population. The other place to look for Russian might be Jewish agencies – a lot of Soviet Union Jewish people were able to get refugee status and come here in the 90s, and many agencies have programs or positions that work with them. Let me know if you have any other questions! :)

          1. August*

            I’ve never heard of that kind of work before, thanks for the advice! I went to school in Pittsburgh (which has a decent Russian population), and I was actually considering looking for work there, so this is a big help!

    6. Jan*

      Former Vista. I did go to graduate school after my first year, because that was the plan for a couple of years. But I almoooost stayed a second year, because I loved my site and the work I was doing. Sometimes I still wish I had (my life would be very different now).

      My advice: don’t do grad school yet, echoing the same reasons everyone else said. It’s expensive and a lot of work, and the people who I saw get the most out of a grad degree came in with more work experience. There’s no shame in doing another year of VISTA, especially with living at home, and getting another education award (right?).

      1. August*

        Thanks for the advice! The majority of the people telling me to go to graduate school are academics, so they might not be totally unbiased on this issue! A solid 70% of the VISTAs I know are getting accepting into their graduate schools of choice, so maybe I’m just feeling a bit pressured at the moment.

    7. AmeriCorps Alum*

      I was actively jobsearching during my first AmeriCorps term (it wasn’t VISTA, just AmeriCorps) and actually found something and worked my “real job” concurrently during the last three months of AmeriCorps along with another part-time job. By the end of the summer I was down to just my one new “real job” and I had paid off my car loan!

      I stayed 5 years at that first “real job” while doing a 2-year graduate program one class at a time. For me this was a great plan. I had a job with tuition benefits and cash-flowed the rest of my graduate school costs. Working for a higher education institution would be a great idea for you. They often have tuition benefits.

      Once I had my masters, I found another job and then was able to move into a supervisory position within local government about a year and a half after that. I’m also a political science major but quite happy working at local government! Maybe you can take a similar step by step approach to working for the federal government.

    8. nonprofit fun*

      I also did VISTA and considered doing it for a second year, but ultimately ended up taking a full-time job.

      My advice would be to put yourself out there for some full-time jobs too. Ultimately you may end up choosing VISTA again, but you never know what’s out there!

      As far as loans, my education award was super helpful the first few months after VISTA. I put the whole thing towards my federal loans.

    9. River Song*

      I looked into a 2nd year of Vista, but ended up taking a job at the agency I did my first Vista term at a few months after it ended. I primarily used Vista to get a professional toehold in nonprofit management and it worked.

      RE grad school–save that stipend for relocating to a city with the jobs you want to do, not grad school. Don’t go to grad school unless it’s absolutely necessary and you’re absolutely committed to seeing it through. Also, remember that your education benefit is counted as taxable income in the year you take it–if you take it as soon as it’s available, you’ll have to pay income tax on it which will be *tough* on a vista income. Consider waiting to apply it to your loans until after you have a job that pays a living wage.

      Are you only doing Vista because you’re worried you won’t be able to get a ‘real’ job? Or are you doing it for other reasons like professional development, commitment to national service, support for specific orgs/causes? If it’s the former, a 2nd term may not be for you. If you have legit reasons you want to do another term, go for it, treat it like a real job, and take the year to plan how you will transition to the next step in your career.

      1. August*

        Thanks for the advice! Really, I’m doing VISTA out of some mixture of the two: I’m so paralyzed by the job search process that I haven’t applied to any positions besides VISTA, but I’ve also gotten a ton of valuable professional experience from VISTA (which, considering how much I’ve struggled in my current VISTA position, is really saying something).

        I’ve spoken with a ton of other professionals during my VISTA term, but networking has been hard because my supervisor has alienated a lot of other nonprofit/social service leaders in the area. If I go for a second VISTA term, it will be with an all new organization, which has both its benefits and its downsides.

        1. River Song*

          I feel you that job searching is terrifying, but if you throw a few applications out to regular jobs that are aligned with what you’re doing now, you might be surprised. Many orgs/NP professionals will be familiar with Vista or be staffed by former Vistas. Start thinking of the work you do in terms of the value it would bring to the next organization you go to.

          It also sounds like you might be doing work well in excess/above the level described in your VAD (‘essentially running a nonprofit’). This might be contributing to some of your feelings of paralysis–I know I often feel super inadequate in my work because I was involuntarily/situationally ‘promoted’ to a level I have no experience in. If that sounds like you, maybe you would benefit from another year’s placement at a larger or more well-established nonprofit with better oversight/training.

          1. August*

            You’re absolutely right– this year’s term has been an incredible learning experience, but it’s also been a bit of blow to my self-esteem. I’ve never felt so inexperienced in so many things simultaneously!

    10. Ann Perkins*

      I also majored in poli sci and did an AmeriCorps year after college (though not VISTA). I graduated in 2009 where they were very very few jobs – almost everyone I graduated with either went to law school, med school or grad school. At least in our area the market ended up oversaturated with lawyers so I’m glad I didn’t go that route. I almost went the MPA route but wasn’t sure if that’s the direction I wanted to ultimately be in.

      For you, I would recommend the second year… grad school may or may not pay off and it’s a lot of debt to undertake if you don’t have clear direction. Having a second year will gain you some solid experience for your resume, even if you’re not making much doing it. One of the reasons I encourage full-time volunteer work post-graduation is that volunteers often end up with more responsibility than what you would have in a typical entry-level job.

      I ultimately ended up working at a law firm as a transcriptionist, then a paralegal, then sort of fell into a job in financial compliance and earning some certificates in that role. It was a total 180 from what I thought I’d be doing but ended up working out very well since it doesn’t require a master’s.

      I will warn you that federal jobs can be hard to break into. My husband is a federal employee and a lot of the people he’s around started as military and that was their “in”.

    11. J.B.*

      Hey,
      I want to say – it’s ok to be rudderless. Really it is. I have 15 years work experience and am going back to grad school now because grad school will help me do what I want to do next.

      Have you looked at state and local government jobs? Fed jobs are really hard to break into, and the barrier to state and local is less. Salary will be low but benefits usually good. Or I really think that nonprofits would be interested in the VISTA experience. Good luck!

      1. August*

        Thank you, and congrats on going to grad school! I really thought I would have more of a plan for my future by now, so this is nice to hear. I initially got into AmeriCorps because it gives you special status for federal hiring, but all of the AmeriCorps-eligible federal jobs are…decidedly not entry-level. I’ve been keeping an eye on state and local government job postings, so we’ll see if something suitable pops up.

    12. Phoenix Programmer*

      Put some money you are saving towards taxes for your VISTA education award. It’s taxed at 10 or 15% I believe and you can not use any of that money towards the tax bill.

      Another advantage to staying in:
      You get a better education award.
      You can list Vista as 1 job over two years with each site as a “role” which looks much better than 1 year stays.

    13. Go VISTA, Go!*

      I work for a nonprofit and have managed several VISTAs. What an awesome program! Our organization has hired a number of employees that started as VISTAs or volunteers in some other capacity. I encourage you to consider VISTA as an opportunity to enter the career field with more experience and aptitude than brand new undergrads, and less debt than graduate program students. If you’re applying for VISTA positions in a field that you’re interested in, you’re getting such valuable experience while also saving money.

      Also- VISTA IS a real job. With the right assignments and supervisors, you can create something meaningful in your community while gaining real world experience. As someone who got a professional job right out of undergrad, I can tell you that I wish I went into it with more career experience, not more education.

  4. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

    I’ve been thinking a lot this week about the role of appearance in regards to career success. If you’re a woman, and depending on your field/office culture/etc., is it important to have your hair and makeup done on a regular basis when you’re in the office? Does it matter more as you age? I go back-and-forth on this, but always end up leaning to the side that says it is important and can either help or hinder your career growth. I’m just curious what others think. For reference, I am 32/female/living in DC.

    1. Anon Today*

      I think that depends on a lot of things. I think the most critical of those is how much of a rockstar you are in your industry. If you are a rockstar then I think that it matters far less as you age having your hair and makeup done. However, for the 99.999% of us who are not rockstars, then I think it still matters especially if you work in a more conservative industry.

      Appearances matter. I wish that they didn’t, but they still do.

    2. Ashie*

      I really think appearance matters no matter who you are. People will see you before you even open your mouth so if your appearance is professional people will think of you as professional. I’m sure this varies by job/industry, but my department exists to share and model professional practices, we have to look the part.

      1. Middle School Teacher*

        Your point about modelling professional practices is well taken. My students wear uniforms. They are expected to be neat, clean, shirts tucked in etc. It would be hypocritical of me to show up looking sloppy.

    3. ZSD*

      I’m also a woman in DC, a bit older than you, and my take is that if you have a “DC-type” job (like government relations, advocacy, etc.), and your role is externally facing, you should probably try to have decent hair and makeup when you’re doing your external work. If your job involves more of just sitting in your own office, or if it’s something non-DC-specific (realty, general service jobs, etc.), it’s probably less important. I’m currently in the kind of job you could have anywhere in the country, and I think not doing makeup isn’t a big deal in my office. But if I were in a role where I went to the Hill, I think it would be important.

      1. QualitativeOverQuantitative*

        This makes sense. I have a very DC type job, though not federal government. Most of my day is spent doing research. I’m not in a particularly outward facing role, so I’m more curious what higher-ups at my think tank believe. When I attend conferences though, I am my best, most put-together self.

        1. sange*

          Are there women higher-ups at your think tank? I agonize frequently about hair/makeup/presentation in my career – I’m your age, in NYC, and the only woman at my level of seniority. All the men above me dress formally but on-trend, so I try to mimic: professional and conservative but still young, some makeup, but I almost never do my hair unless it’s a real Event.

        2. Denise*

          DC can be a little Old South and some people may think a woman without makeup doesn’t have her act together. Hard to predict who those people are.?You could look to see what the senior women are doing or try some makeup and no makeup days and keep a log of how you’re treated.

          1. Specialk9*

            When I lived in the deeper South than DC is, there was a lot of expectation that a woman would wear makeup and have styled hair even to walk the dog. I never really did any of that, because I’m lazy, but I low-key scandalized quite a few people that way.

            DC seemed less of that by a lot, but you’re right that there were still plenty of people like that. In New England, I see a lot less makeup though definitely still some.

            So my broad answer – it’s important to look neat, and better to look not-tired. I think that minimal makeup is a good idea if you need it.
            Eg when I can be arsed, I lightly cover up rosacea, and put on a smidge of smudged eyeliner to look alive. Otherwise I just keep a slim stick of Colorganics — what looks like lip balm but has a bit more color oomph; one can apply it in public and not scandalize the hardcore no-lipstick-application-in-public brigade.

            1. Nines*

              Uh oh. There’s a “no lipstick in public brigade”?
              This has never occurred to me as something that is Not Done.

        3. TheAssistant*

          FWIW, I do not wear makeup or heels.

          I felt a little out of step when I was a Hilltern – it seemed like everyone was more polished than I was, and had more money for clothes and makeup than I did. But I made up for it in hard work and that eventually got me noticed in positive ways. I learned pretty quickly that the Hill was not for me, and the grooming was a part of that.

          I worked at nonprofits (mostly fundraising) for the next 7 years in DC. Nonprofits are more casual, but fundraising tends to be more polished overall. Again, no makeup and heels <1% of my working days, but I always looked polished in the clothing department and worked my butt off. I did just fine.

          Now I'm a data analyst in the produce industry and I think if I wore makeup to one of our Board meetings my Board members would look at me as if I had sprouted two heads. Produce is just much more casual. Sales/marketing staff tend to be young/female/made up, but the rest is just old white men in khakis. My lack of makeup hasn't stopped me from succeeding one bit. It is nice to know that appearance doesn't matter in every industry.

          2. Specialk9*

            I like d’Orsay flats in place of heels. They look chic and polished, but aren’t actually pumps.

            1. Ethical Fashion Enthusiast*

              I am wearing D’Orsay flats today! Judging by the higher-ups at MPOW, a certain level of conformity to these norms would likely aid advancement, but in general people dress and present in a wide variety of ways and it is all considered acceptable (higher ed).

    4. Caro in the UK*

      I think groomed and clean is way more important than “made-up” in most professional environments. I can think of only a few, very conservative careers when having proper makeup on would be considered essential, or even taken into account (consciously or not) when evaluating performance.

      I think as you age it does become more noticeable how much effort you’re putting into the groomed part though (eyebrows, haircut etc.) I wish it wasn’t so, but I suspect it still is.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        +100

        Also – not just for women. Men should look groomed, clean, & presentable as well.

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      I just got a promotion to a new internal role (which will hopefully be the role that makes my career), and I haven’t done my makeup or hair for….actual years. 3? More? I still don’t do makeup, but I do my hair every third day by putting it in a pony tail and curling the ends, then pulling it back down. But ONLY because my new role came with a new schedule that gives me more time in the morning. And I only do it the morning after I wash it. It’s good to go the rest of the time.

      So, in some work places? Yeah I’d probably have to be more polished, but I’m in a fairly casual work place where my skills far outweighed my appearance.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        That said, I’m well groomed, and I wear nice-casual clothes (jeans and cardigans, the occasional blazer or skirt), so I’m not rolling into work slovenly or anything. Just no makeup or perfectly coifed hair: Clean hair, brushed and fresh face is my go to look. I’m 34 in Chicago.

      2. Specialk9*

        Yeah, I put a bit of mousse in my hair at night, do a couple big curls on the front and top layers, and pin with 2-4 crossed bobby pins (crossing them is essential). Then brush out in the morning.

        When I had longer hair, I moussed, top bunned, and brushed in the morning.

        Quick easy volume and movement, the lazy way.

    6. I am who I am*

      Female / 40s / ruralish New England / Conservative but not remotely fashion or media related industry / non-public facing professional role

      I never wear make-up. As in not since senior prom. No one cares.
      My hair is neat, but definitely not styled. No one cares.
      My everyday clothes meet the dress code, and are appropriately ironed and so forth, but are decidedly not fashionable. No one cares.

      The thing that does matter, is that the few days a year it matters, I can show up in a suit and conservative hair style and own the professional persona. The other 360 days a year, no one cares.

    7. Lady By The Lake*

      It depends on the field and your natural appearance. In any field it is going to be important to present a clean, put together look. More formal fields or ones that require a lot of customer/client/court interaction are going to expect a more polished look. If you can achieve a polished look with minimal effort — yay you! On the other hand, if your hair needs a little extra work, or (like me) your skin is red and blotchy and your natural appearance makes it look like you just drank a bottle of whiskey and rolled out of bed, some extra effort will be in order.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        As someone who gets “hey, are you okay??” whenever I don’t wear undereye concealer, I second this.

        1. Delphine*

          I’ve learned that not covering up my under eye circles until people get used to my face is the answer. I have genetically dark skin under my eyes, and it’s pretty tough to cover up reliably without caking things. If I start out covering, people inevitably ask if I’m tired or feeling sick. If I don’t start out covering, and then eventually do a concealer routine, people recognize that I have a bit of makeup on, but at least I am not getting worried questions when I’m barefaced.

      2. Ann Perkins*

        This is what I came here to say. I’m 31 and feel a lot more put together with some BB cream, powder since I have shiny skin, blush since I don’t have much natural color to my cheeks, and mascara. A previous person in my role is about 50 and just naturally looks more classy in sweatpants than I do with lots of effort.

        1. Bleeborp*

          Haha that’s so true- just being kind of self aware about things about yourself that could easily look a little better with a little help. My skin gets shiny- I don’t have to wear a full face of makeup but keeping a little powder around helps. My husband has really fine hair and if he keeps it long on top it can look kind of unkempt if he doesn’t put a little product in it. If both of us decided not to do either thing, we’d be fine professionally but in my mind, if there’s something that could draw negative attention to my appearance that I can remedy easily then it’s in my best interest to do so. Some people look perfectly put together with little to no effort. I spend almost no time on my hair and feel fine about it!

      3. Specialk9*

        “On the other hand, if your hair needs a little extra work, or (like me) your skin is red and blotchy and your natural appearance makes it look like you just drank a bottle of whiskey and rolled out of bed, some extra effort will be in order.”

        This made me laugh. Whoo morning bender look!

      4. Specialk9*

        Btw, if you haven’t tried it, Aveeno Ultra Calming does wonders for calming my rosacea. When it gets itchy, it’s the only thing that helps too.

    8. EditorInChief*

      Keeping a professional appearance does matter. But that doesn’t necessarily mean full makeup, etc. It really depends on your industry. How do the women who are leaders in your industry present themselves? Look to them for direction. As I get older I think it’s actually more important to look put together.

          1. I am who I am*

            Thanks. I’m surrounded by (older, white, straight) men who are so sure they only consider merit that they are blind to their own implicit biases. It’s total coincidence that all of their proteges are young men. Mostly it rolls off my back and I have hope I can change the system from within. Other days it gets me down.

            3. only acting normal*

              Ack.
              I am always boggled that they are *so* blind to themselves. Is it wilful ignorance? A mask for conscious bias? What? How?
              It severely knocks ones respect for them.

    9. Long Time Reader, First Time Poster*

      Ugh. I hate that I do this, but I do try to have my hair/makeup done whenever I’m visible (either in the office or via videoconference from home). It annoys me to no end that the men I work with are always camera ready (maaaaaaybe they put on a hat if they are home??) and I have to make efforts.

      But, I also know that, like it or not, people respond better to people they view as conventionally attractive. And I feel like I need leverage that if I can. FWIW I’m a late 40s woman working in a male dominated tech environment, so it’s already a struggle to feel like I ‘belong’ sometimes. That means I feel like I ought to conform to standards. But, my inner feminist sighs mightily at this.

    10. peachie*

      It depends on the industry/office, I think. I worked in DC until recently and I was typically on the “more” end of the hair/makeup spectrum. I really don’t think it made a difference; it was normal in my office to wear little or no makeup, and I don’t think I was (/am) seen as more professional for doing so.

      I did start dressing up at work more a year or two into my job, and I think that dressing more formally did have a small impact (but, to be honest, it was less intentional and more “I discovered I love blazers!”).

      1. Samata*

        OMG me too! I wear blazers a lot on casual Friday (have one on today with jeans and leather flip flops…mainly because I LOVE BLAZERS

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        This is me but with skirts/dresses. People think I’m dressed up, but really my stretchy waist skirts and unstructured dresses are way more comfortable than the constriction of jeans.

        1. mediumofballpoint*

          Seconded. Dresses/skirts are really just pajamas that are appropriate for work. I can get behind that.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          It’s almost like cheating! I plan to do that a lot when (if) I have to start working in an office again because at this point it’s hard to swap lounge wear for outside-appropriate pants even for a 30 minute errand.

    11. Chloe*

      I’m going to agree with Ashie. I’m a mid-level manager type, and I always try to look professional and presentable. Some days are better than others. I learned from my mother long ago to dress for the job you want not the job you have. I think that’s a good way to look at it depending on your industry. I work for a very corporate (but becoming relaxed on dress code) engineering company. I try to make sure I look like someone who is ready to move in to more managerial roles and responsibilities. Before this, I worked for a construction company. I was in the field I probably wore jeans 90% of the time to the field, and something nicer but washable in terms of work appropriate slacks when I had important client meetings the rest of the time. But even then I tried to mimic in women’s fashion what the men who were more managers were wearing so they could see me as a potential equal. What I wear and how I look to move up in my company may not be the same for someone in art world or for someone in the financial industry though.

    12. Overeducated*

      As a woman of similar age in DC, I think it depends a little where you work, as ZSD says below. I work in a location and role where looking professional matters (neat business casual wardrobe, slightly dressier for meetings with external partners), but my organization as a whole has a more field-based culture, and that means women are less likely to wear heels, makeup, or dye graying hair in office roles than they might in other DC jobs. In my last job, I actually tried to tone down the femininity of my wardrobe because I worried I wouldn’t be taken as seriously. So I think it does matter, but looking a certain way is maybe less important than looking like you belong where you are.

    13. HeightsHeifer*

      I think professional appearance is going to matter, and that is entirely dependent on the field you’re in. I am a mid-level manager, 33, and in the South, but in a high profile position with a well known organization. I can’t stand my hair in this year round humidity, so I mine is almost always clipped back but presentable. I do tend to wear heavier makeup than I have in the past, but only because I personally feel like I’m taken more seriously with it than not.

      I do think that appearances matter, whether rightly or wrongly. I think it ultimately comes down to how you and others view one another. I’m not one to notice minor stuff, but I do notice if someone is in a crazy wrinkled suit or their hair looks like they just woke up. I think we want to be noticed for our contribution to the organization and it’s easier to do that if people aren’t focused on your presentation.

    14. designbot*

      In addition to industry/location as others have mentioned, I’ve unfortunately found it can also depend on weight. Thin women can get away with a lot more—messy hair, ill-fitting clothes, no makeup—while larger women I think are more easily judged ‘sloppy’ even when done up or not done up to the same extent as a slimmer counterpart. That’s just my experience as a larger woman.

      1. Fiennes*

        This is also true with age. A young face with no makeup may be considered “fresh and natural” while an old face is considered sickly or plain.

      2. HeightsHeifer*

        +1

        I’m also a larger woman (surprise! look at the username) and I tend to feel like I’m less harshly judged if I make an effort with my clothes, hair and make up.

        1. mj*

          Agreed. I’m not sure whether others are really judging me, or whether I’m just judging myself harshly, but I definitely feel better about my looks, and more confident, when I try harder with hair, clothes and makeup.

    15. Lucky*

      In my experience, most people only notice looks that go to extremes – like full evening-on-the-town makeup or looking like you just rolled out of bed. At least in my office, I don’t see much difference in young women vs. older women, though the higher-ups tend to dress sharper. O/T I met with a new employee this week – super smart young woman in marketing analytics – with blue and purple hair and the subtlest navy blue brow pencil. It looked so cool.

    16. Lora*

      It depends. When I’m in The Nerdery, i.e. the back office working on the computer, I just need to be hygienic and tidy. If I’m in the field I need to dress for the field conditions so it doesn’t matter (boots, hard hat etc). If I’m meeting with clients OH BOY. I better look like $10,000,000. Nice skirt, blouse, hair in bun, glasses, light makeup, heels. I have some advance warning of clients though.

      When I was fresh out of grad school I was in the manufacturing suites a lot where you never wear makeup or anything other than slacks / blouse / Doc Martens that you can get bleach spilled on. The first time I had to dress for a presentation my boss literally didn’t recognize me.

    17. Emily S.*

      This is a good question. Personally, I never wear makeup to work, and my hair is short and low-maintenance.

      That said, there was a very interesting piece in the NYT several years back. The gist of the research was that women who wear makeup are viewed as more competent in the workplace. This obviously didn’t convince me to wear makeup, though!

      Here’s the article, for anyone curious:
      https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/fashion/makeup-makes-women-appear-more-competent-study.html

      1. London Calling*

        I’ve always used how well I do my work to demonstrate my competence, but I’m odd like that. (Non makeup wearer except for a slick of tinted moisturiser).

    18. Pet sitter*

      People who work with pets are very casual, like you’d expect. Some women do their hair or makeup, but it’s not by any means expected.

      I know a woman with long, manicured nails, and I am both impressed and a little confused. I have given up on polish because it chips within two days. How does she do it?

      1. CanadianEngineerLibrarian*

        if you get acrylic polish, gel polish, or dip polish at a nail salon, that stuff sticks for weeks.

      2. Specialk9*

        Yeah, gel polish done in a salon is wild how utterly perfect and long lasting it is.

    19. Falling Diphthong*

      To bear in mind: people register change. So if you go from zero to sixty, it can look Tammy Faye Baker; the reverse journey and you look ‘wan’. Those are both judgments based on the degree of change, rather than an objective assessment of what level of makeup is most attractive on you or best suited to your position. I don’t like fake eyelashes, for example, but if someone who always wore them appeared bare-eyed I’d register that they looked less defined–even if I thought this was a better aesthetic look when I step back to big picture, my brain has to untangle that from ‘person looks different’.

    20. Jessie the First (or second)*

      Yes, appearances matter. But that doesn’t mean you have to be “done up” – you don’t necessarily need makeup, unless you are in a particular industries and roles within those industries. And hair just needs to be clean and groomed.

      You need to be neat and clean and dressed in a way that matches the level of formality of your office. For hair, don’t let it it be unkempt – if it is brushable, brush it, if it’s not brushable hair, you know more than I how to manage it.

      I know some people say appearances matter when what they mean is “wear makeup, it’s professional” or “wear makeup, so you look pretty” and, being now in my 40s and having worked in a few fields, that’s just BS. Wear makeup if you want to and don’t if you don’t. In most jobs, it’s not a thing that will hold you back. (If you are in one of the jobs in which it would, I suspect you’d know already.)

    21. Eye of Sauron*

      This is an interesting question… I think that appearance does count. Here’s how I look at it. Each industry and region has a ‘uniform’ for people at varying levels. Uniform being used in a general look sense. Typically people will adopt the ‘uniform’ of the position they are in and the one they want as a signal that they belong. Note that this doesn’t necessarily mean ‘done up’ but it could mean that.

      If I’m striving to be an executive, one of things I’m going to do is to look at the executive women around me, I’m going to emulate that ‘look’. And let’s be honest there are typical looks for many positions and hierarchy levels. So in my example the executive women are going to have some things in common. They are typically older 40+, generally wear tailored clothes, makeup, and styled hair.

      This look could be because they are older, with more disposable income who can afford more tailored clothes and more maintenance heavy hair styles and are at the similar points in life or they could have decided that to fit in they should adopt this look.

      So I used executive women as an example, but I think you could look at other industries and see the same ‘uniform’ examples. For instance if a woman showed up to work with perfectly coifed hair, expensive suit, high heels, and sparkly jewelry as a teacher, that person would be outside the norms for that position/industry, in this case I’d suspect she wouldn’t be taken seriously as a teacher because of the way she’s dressed.

      I think this also is true for men. Look around and you’ll notice they have their own versions of the ‘uniform’.

      I, like you, have been thinking about this as I advance in my career. I do think it matters and am actively re-imaging myself into the next uniform.

      1. Traveling Teacher*

        Ha, the teacher you’ve described is a former colleague of mine, to a T. University professor, though. She always said that she preferred to have her wealth where she could see it. She’s a powerhouse, though, so she can get away with whatever she wants to vis à vis clothing and jewelry!

    22. Fiennes*

      Depends on your industry. I have to say I doubt it would ever hurt you, and there’s value in looking pulled together/sharp by the standards of whatever culture you work in. (Even in very informal/non traditional workplaces, the person with well-fitting jeans and badass boots and a swanky leather bag probably comes across more like “the boss” than someone in 8-year-old khakis and an oversized T-shirt.) It’s wrong that “pulled together” is a more comprehensible/expensive proposition for women than for men, of course. Personally I try to strike a balance between my various needs: not wanting to spend too much, wanting to look pulled together, a hate of spending too much time getting ready; a love for interesting clothes and accessories.

      I’d say, look at the top-performing women in your company/industry and take one of them as your model. Not as someone to copycat, but as someone who’s struck the right balance.

      1. Samata*

        This is where I fall – that you have to look pulled together and sharp for your industry and your role in the company/department.

        My experience has been with fairly conservative standards, but I would say that as I age (approaching 40) I have noticed that for women the emphasis on appearance is on looking neat/tailored/clean/kept as opposed to “does she have makeup on or not?”

        For men I think the emphasis is on a clean shave or neatly kept longer hair and a tailored look (not necessarily a tie but an ironed shirt and pants, belt, clean shoes, blazer fits well if its necessary to wear one)

        I also think as I’ve aged I’m also given more freedom to relax my wardrobe – even though my position has grown I have proven my value to the company and they trust my opinion and my knowledge from working with me over time. Right now I wear BB cream in the winter months when I don’t have a tan, lip gloss and I fill in my brows – which is really more about me liking my looks that wanted to feel more respected at work.

    23. Chameleon*

      Really depends on industry and location, I think. In academic lab science on the West Coast, I’ve found that having more than a quick brush of eyeshadow and wearing anything more “professional” than a casual skirt is thought of as kind of…unserious.

      The same appearance that would signal “professional” in an east coast law firm is going to come off completely different in west coast tech, while the appearance that is “polished” in K12 teaching would probably be considered sloppy in law.

    24. Oxford Coma*

      I work in tech in a construction-adjacent industry. My dress code includes full-length pants and closed-toe shoes at all times. My experience has been that anything overly feminine (makeup, jewelry, long polished nails, et cetera) gives the impression that I’m not willing to dig in and get my hands dirty, both literally and figuratively. The women here who move up quickly are very low maintenance, even tomboy-ish.

      Other people on AAM in similar industries have stated in the past that they enjoy long manicures and a full face of makeup with no repercussions, so obviously it’s very dependent on your company atmosphere.

      1. Sour Grapes*

        This is how it is for me too! If you’re too “fancy” as a woman people dismiss you as they don’t think you can buckle down and do the actual physical work, but you also have to look polished and presentable. Also you have to wear clothes that can get dirty and stained at any time. It’s a really hard line to walk!

      2. designbot*

        I’m also construction-adjacent and haven’t felt judged in that regard, but have definitely adjusted my wardrobe around it still. The last time I wore cute shoes to the office I wound up called out to a jobsite and walking like 6 miles. Now I wear sneakers every single day and look down on anyone who questions that.

    25. What's with today, today?*

      Yes. It’s important. I know that’s highly debated, but it’s important. I’m a woman.

    26. Specialk9*

      In the bureaucratic side of DC, I felt like the role model for women was often older and a tad frumpy, which is so liberating!

      (On the political side, esp on the Hill, it felt like the role model was a weather anchor or female Fox anchor, ie young gorgeous short skirt long curled hair.)

      I think I absorbed some positive body-agnostic messages from all the strong capable women in DC.

    27. Liz Lemon*

      I very rarely wear makeup, and my hair is super straight so there’s not much to styling it. But I do make a point of looking “put together” with regards to my clothes/shoes/jewelry. For better or worse, I think that’s important for everyone, but especially the burden of this falls to women.

    28. Iris Eyes*

      People want to look at people that they like looking at. If you want to be looked at for increased responsibility it doesn’t hurt to be a person people want to look at in general. Not saying you have to but tastefully accentuated appearance for both men and women can be beneficial.

    29. A Panda for All Seasons*

      I refuse to do more than men are expected to do. If I lose opportunities for it, so be it. So, for me that means:

      1. My body, hair, and nails are clean
      2. My clothes are clean and tidy/not wrinkled
      3. My hair (which is quite short) is clean and in a wavy pixie cut
      4. I don’t wear make up/nail polish because I don’t like it

      Professional looks for women do not require make-up, in my opinion.

      1. A Panda for All Seasons*

        I rage over the double standard for women’s work appearance versus men’s (especially when it comes to “fixing” my face’s “flaws”). For me, this is a sword to fall on. I do understand that is not the case for everyone.

      2. Workerbee*

        This.

        Perhaps it’s become a personal/professional vendetta for me, but if I want to see change in how people judge/assume/employ/promote, then I’ll be one of the people striving to make that change both for my own career trajectory and anyone I personally hire. I have a lot of built-up ire toward “Women HAVE to wear makeup,” BB cream proselytizing, and basically any form of marketing that tries to convince me that I’m less if I don’t pay $$ for their magic serum.

        I do wear sunscreen, however. ;)

      3. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Agreed with this 1000%.

        I don’t wear make up or do my hair/nails and I prefer comfort/function over fashion with my clothing choices. Even as a big girl, this hasn’t held me back professionally because I’m frighteningly efficient and competent.

      4. Quiltrrrr*

        This is EXACTLY how I feel about it! If men don’t have to wear makeup, then why should I?

        (And I don’t wear makeup, or do my hair. It’s super straight and going grey, so into a ponytail it goes!)

    30. Sarah*

      Yes unfortunately it matters and it is a very fine line. too much makeup and your the party girl that cant get the job done, no makeup then your depressed and not trying anymore. The same with your hair a modest but professional hairstyle and color means hard working, unkempt signals depressed hanging on by a thread, and trendy signals party girl that you are going to have to pull her weight. The same thing with how you dress too tight, too low cut, too trendy, or out of style and frumpy signals wont be able to do her job.

    31. Emily K*

      I’m 33/f/DC and I started considering makeup a daily necessity at work a year or two ago. It’s definitely related to my own personal feelings of confidence. When I had youthful, naturally dewy skin and bright eyes, I only ever wore makeup for special occasions where I could have fun with color.

      Now when I look at my un-made-up face in the mirror…I just see a tired face drained of all color. So now every morning I put on eyeliner, neutral eyeshadow, a touch of blush, and a translucent powder over top to set everything. Every once in a great while I’m running so late that I skip it, and I’ve never gotten any sideways looks or comments about my appearance, but I definitely just feel more confident if I can make myself look a little bit fresher and brighter.

    32. SansaStark*

      I’m in my mid-30s in the DC area and my company is pretty diverse in terms of appearances; however, I’m pretty junior and eyeing a promotion. I *know* that it’s going to work in my favor that our Big Boss notices that I take a lot of care in my appearance for our Board meetings, dinners, conferences, etc. even though I have had very limited exposure due to my junior role. So even though it may not really matter in my company, I think it matters to my Big Boss – for women and men – and that means it matters on my team.

    33. CG*

      It depends on what your field is, how other people there look, and how “put together” you naturally look. IMHO, there aren’t a lot of jobs in DC anymore where there is an expectation that all women will have fancy makeup and hairdos. As long as you find a balance of ways to look “formal”, “serious”, or whatever adjective you’re seeking via a combination of dressing well, doing your hair, makeup, or being naturally put together looking, you’re fine.

      For me, I am not makeup competent and have not worn it since my roll-on glitter days, and I’m lucky to have relatively clear skin. Fancy hair makes me look like a teenager and I value my morning time, so I stick to hair down (but frequently brushed throughout the day), in a ponytail, or in a basic bun. However, I put more effort into finding really good looking work clothes and making sure they fit me right, dressing context-appropriately but slightly more formally than some of the folks around me, researching comfy but awesome-looking shoes (thank you, Rockport/Vionic/Born/Clark’s/Dr. Scholl’s for making hip but comfortable work shoes), and putting enough effort into keeping my skin soft, my legs shaved, and my eyebrows plural that it works for me.

    34. Ladylike*

      I’m also a woman (hence the username), and while I definitely try to look neat and pulled-together every day, it also depends on the situation. For example, my hair is super long – so long that it draws attention and could potentially be a safety hazard in some areas. So I always wear it up on days when I’ll encounter customers, or when I’ll be working in the manufacturing area. Normal days in the office, I occasionally wear it down. I wear minimal make-up, mostly just tinted moisturizer to cover the imperfections that come along with aging. In my industry, a fully “made up” face is actually pretty rare, so a lot of women wear the minimum and no one thinks of it as unprofessional. I focus on being neat, pulled together, and not being a distraction, and I think that’s totally fine.

    35. Just curious*

      I don’t have much to add as I have never worn makeup at work. (It doesn’t seem necessary in my industry.) I am curious by what is meant by having your hair “done.” I recall this phrase as something my mother used to do, going to a salon where they did something (maybe a perm?) that kept her hair looking about the same all week. I wasn’t aware that going “to get your hair done” was still a thing as I haven’t heard anyone say it that way in years. So maybe you mean doing something to your hair yourself? I brush my hair, and sometimes put it in a ponytail to get it out of the way. That’s probably not what you mean. I sometimes go for a haircut but I call that “getting my hair cut” and not “getting my hair done.”

    36. Scott*

      I know you’re talking about this from a woman’s perspective, exploring sexism issues, but maybe this is an alternative position to see. As a SWM, I would never dream of coming to the office not looking put together. Hair neatly cut and styled, clothes fitting, ironed and professional, and less important for office work, but staying physically fit, especially if there’s a physical component to your job (I now this one is more controversial, but allow me to elaborate further on).
      It’s about the perception others have of you, not some arbitrary guidelines some straight old white man has imposed. Our society has clearly defined what a professional look is, and anyone willing to put the effort in will pull it off. Is there more/less importance placed on it depending on the industry/company? Yes. I’ve worked at places where tattered T-shirts and gym shorts were the norm. There I opted for (not torn) jeans and a polo. Now I’m working for a company where dress shirts, pants, and shoes are expected every day. Anyone not following this code looks pretty unprofessional.

      1. Lara*

        I don’t want to be disrespectful but how on earth would you know how women are treated if they don’t wear makeup? I’m afraid your perceptions are incorrect. In some workplaces / industries women *are* expected to adhere to much higher grooming standards than men. And yes, actually, it *is* because of some old white straight men.

    37. Anon nonprofit worker*

      I’m the same age as you and I work in an education-related field in California. I feel like there are conflicting pressures here to look young and youthful but then also to look professional. I’m on the younger side of my specific niche work world and I’ve noticed better receptions when I dress more corporate when I’m meeting externally. I had really long hair for years and I cut it about two years ago and I have noticed a difference, I think people take me more seriously now which is unfortunate.
      My organization allows people to dress casually but there is a mix of people who dress up and people who dress down and I do see the people that tend to dress fashionably (but in a business, non-flashy way) seem to also be the people who are being promoted.

    38. Triple Anon*

      Looking polished makes a difference. What that means specifically varies from person to person. It’s ok to have your own style as long as you look well groomed and within professional norms. If you’re not into makeup, own that and make it part of your overall polished look. There is a lot of flexibility; you just have to find something that works well for your style and your field.

    39. Traveling Teacher*

      I’ve actually been wondering about this myself. I’m in the strictly no-makeup camp and have been for more than a decade–as in, I don’t even own any. The closest thing I have to make up is one tinted lip balm, and that’s about it. I don’t even use moisturizer because my dermatologist told me that it was clogging my pores and causing breakouts!

      But. I’ve made a career transition in the last year, and I might have to meet some professional clients in the near future. Even though I work in a very, very casual, male-dominated field, I want to look my best for an interview or professional meeting with new clients. Last year, I got a BB-cream, but that made me breakout, so I pitched it. I was thinking of trying a couple of makeup samples from Sephora, but I don’t think it’s worth the breakout risk.

      For what it’s worth, on a day to day basis, I think it makes no difference at all. I’m clean and tidy, and I know how to color-coordinate with my skin tones/undertones; there are certain colors I never wear because they’ll bring out the red undertones in my skin and make me look ill! There are a couple of colors, conversely, that make me look good, so most of my work wardrobe is in those colors. Also, my skin is uneven and has large pores. I do not have great skin and never have since I was thirteen, but once I finally stopped wearing makeup, it improved vastly. Obvious-pore face skin is much more attractive than pimply skin with caked-on concealer!

      When I was teaching full time, I did lots of themes, which definitely got a lot of praise from colleagues and students (Pi Day, Halloween outfits, spring flowers, hearts in February, a fake tiara and scepter when studying the royal family, etc.) When you’re the foreign language teacher, a certain degree of strange/unusual clothing and hair choices is both expected and encouraged. :)

  5. Evil HR Person*

    About a year ago, I was working at a (horrible) job where everything I did was A) wrong, B) slow, and C) not my cup of tea. While at this job, I was criticized for being hard to work with and short with people, although when I asked for more concrete feedback – such as to whom was I being short and/or an example of the things I said that made me sound discourteous – nobody could or would give me a straight answer. As far as I knew, everyone was happy to work with me except for the people in my department, which is a tough pill to swallow when you work HR. So I left.

    I found this great job where I am blossoming into a true HR professional – or so I thought. A couple of months ago, during my performance review, my boss told me that in order to sit with the leadership team, I have to cut out the silliness. Um… what?! I went from being curt to silly? Just like that? I, honestly, have no idea anymore. To be sure, my boss loves my work, I love my job, and I’m not looking to leave anytime soon. I’m usually easy to get along with, though an introvert, so I don’t like to “mingle.” My boss doesn’t care about that – but I don’t know what it is about my personality that has me going from one extreme to the other… Obviously, I don’t think I’ve changed – I’m a woman in my early 40’s, how could I? But maybe I did???? Anybody has any thoughts?

      1. Myrin*

        Yeah, I was thinking that. What does “silliness” mean in this context? That you’re joking/fooling around when you should be serious?

    2. Blue*

      Yeah, you definitely need more information. What specific behaviors are they considering “silly”? Did he describe what he considered more appropriate behavior?

    3. Evil HR Person*

      I’m in the same boat as before: no concrete examples… again. I do have a tendency to be sarcastic and crack jokes, so maybe that’s it? But I work with very smart people who “get” my sense of humor (at the expense of sounding condescending, that was part of the problem in my last job – a couple of the people in my department didn’t get my jokes and references). Should I tone it down, maybe? Should the evil HR person always be evil, then?

      1. SoCalHR*

        Ugh – not much advice, just sympathy. We sound like we have similar personalities and half the time I’m told I’m too abrasive and then sometimes I worry about making too many jokes since I’m the evil HR. This role can really be a no-win situation a lot of the time.
        I guess my one piece of advice is to try to tone the “silliness” down with the leadership folks, but keep it with the general employees, maybe that would help?

      2. CAA*

        If your humor is the kind where you interject funny comments during an otherwise serious discussion; then yes, I’d say to tone that down. Your boss may see this behavior as derailing meetings rather than lightening things up. Also, she may know that the upper management doesn’t appreciate that type of humor even though everyone in your department does. You can always joke about things afterwards rather than in the moment.

        Another thing to consider is that sometimes sarcasm can come across as cruel or harsh. Of course I don’t know exactly what kinds of things you say, but it’s worth thinking about whether you’re targeting people (or processes owned by people) whose feelings may get hurt rather than events where there’s a general recognition of the absurdity of the situation.

        Lastly, if you have a good relationship with your manager, ask her to set up some kind of unobtrusive signal that she can give you when she sees examples of this silliness so that you get some feedback immediately. It could be tapping a pencil, or a raised eyebrow, or an IM, or whatever works in your meeting environment.

        1. Happy Lurker*

          CAA – that is some good advice. Like the part about wrapping the manager into the situation. It would be the specific information that evilHR needs.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Ah, good analysis–I was reading silliness as goofiness and not as being sarcastic, which can come off as smart-aleck. And yes, good advice about the feedback.

      3. EditorInChief*

        I’m in an upper leadership role in my company and if I’m talking to HR most likely it’s either because there’s a problem/situation with one of my people, or I’m working on finding a new hire. Both situations tend to eat up a lot of time and can be emotionally draining. I would be extremely unhappy to have to deal with a joking sarcastic HR person.

      4. Lily Rowan*

        So that actually sounds like your behavior in both jobs is the same, but the folks at Job 1 didn’t get the jokes and the folks at Job 2 do. Either way, it sounds like, yes, tone down the sarcasm and jokes, or at least be more conscious of setting.

        1. AnotherHRPro*

          I agree. And this does not mean you need to change, but that you need to gauge when your sarcasm and humor are appropriate and when they are not. I would tend to tone it down around your boss as she is clearly trying to gauge if you can do that and act appropriately with senior leaders. You will find that with some people (and in some situations) you can be silly and sarcastic and with others you should not be.

      5. Observer*

        Ask your boss if the jokes and sarcasm are what she’s referring to. Unless she gives you a very clear NO – and is willing to go back and think of what it IS, you should assume that that’s what’s bothering her. It’s also possible that it’s only her issue, but since she’s your boss, you need to please her. It’s not that you have to always be somber. But, you should not be “the person who cracks jokes” in meetings.

      6. Jadelyn*

        I think there’s a difference between being evil, so to speak, and just putting on a bit more gravitas when you’re around leadership individuals. I kind of calibrate my level based on how senior the person I’m talking with is, and try to take my cues from how joke-y they’re being and stay just a hint shy of that level.

        I’m in HR, too, and ye gods the shit my team says to each other behind closed doors is off-the-charts inappropriate some days, but it’s because we’re all close and comfortable with each other and have similar senses of humor, and it helps the day pass on those crazy days when we’re fighting fire after fire.

        But, if there’s anyone from outside of HR present, we behave ourselves impeccably. Not that we never joke with non-HR people, but there’s a very different…tone to it, I guess? I just try to be mindful that EEs will hear things said by someone in HR differently than they’d hear it if someone else said it, and that goes for everything from opinions to criticisms to ideas to jokes. Most EEs will always have a little voice in the back of their head going “…did she mean something by that?” because, like it or not, HR does have A Reputation (that is not entirely undeserved tbh). A non-HR EE snarks about a leadership decision, that’s just complaining, but someone in HR snarking about things gets taken much more seriously. I wonder if that’s what your manager is talking about?

      7. Ann Perkins*

        I would suspect it’s more the sarcasm than the jokes. Not everyone thinks sarcasm is very funny, and it’s more easy to be misconstrued. I don’t see why there would be a problem with references and jokes unless they’re distracting.

      8. Ladylike*

        Yes, I would say since your boss is defining your jokes as “silliness”, I would hold back on any jokes or sarcastic comments unless there’s a general tone of joking in the room (chime in when others joke first, but don’t be the first). But unless you’re doing this all the time, your boss sounds like a real treat. Humor helps us maintain our sanity at work.

    4. MissGirl*

      I’m like you and can be a bit sarcastic and snarky. Then I worked with a guy that had a snarky comment for everything and it got old fast. I realized by working with him that I need to be careful about quantity and turning everything into a joke.

      I remind myself my work personality doesn’t have to be as strong as my home one.

      1. Evil HR Person*

        Thank you! I like this: work personality vs. home personality. I’m going to use this.

      2. Bowl of Oranges*

        Yes! Most of my office is this way–including me. It didn’t bother me for a long time, and in a lot of situations, it still doesn’t. But it gets really frustrating trying to have a meeting and half the people in the room need to make jokes and sarcastic comments every few minutes. It’s definitely a time and place thing.

    5. Leela*

      ooh giving subjective adjectives as criticism without concrete examples is a *terrible* way to convey information to an employee! It’s just enough to stress you out, not enough to act on! I’ve been told I’m too mean, too nice, too much of a pushover, too domineering, too serious, not serious enough, etc etc etc. Never with any specific behaviors that I could actually evaluate and change. It might be worth shooting off an e-mail and saying something like “I value your input on my performance here, and I wanted to talk about your suggestion to cut out the silliness. I think in order to implement this feedback, I need some more information about specific behaviors, whether that’s speech patterns, facial expressions, gestures, etc. When you get a chance, I’d really appreciate the opportunity to meet with you and discuss this so we can be sure we’re on the same page.”

      I hate to say it from just this because I’m not there but it’s very very hard for me to believe that being a woman in your early 40s isn’t playing a part here. I’m not saying it is, I’m saying having worked in HR for years I’ve seen it a million times and it’s very hard not to jump to that conclusion, although it is a jumped-to conclusion. People, both men and women, simply tend to be very willing to treat women like dolls to be dressed up and directed in the work place to a much higher extent than I’ve seen managers do with their male employees. Obviously I hope that’s not what’s happening here but it might help with sanity to realize that no matter how you act you might run into this.

      Whatever’s going on, I hope that this gets resolved for you! If I could give one bit of feedback to every manager that I worked with in HR, it’s that they need to be very specific about things that are bothering them because they have context in their head that makes what they say mean one thing, but it doesn’t get interpreted that way by someone who doesn’t have the same context. I was going over an exit interview with an employee that we’d let go, and we asked if he’d felt he was given everything he’d needed to succeed. His manager told us that he’d told the employee his behavior (eye rolling, scoffing, snipping at people etc) needed to change or he’d be let go. The employee told us that his manager randomly told him in the hall “Hey, while I’ve got you, we’d like to see you be a little more professional sometimes” as he was on his way to the bathroom. No more context, nothing specific about behaviors, no “we need to see these changes or we don’t know that we can keep you”, no timeline, no nothing. That was apparently 3 months before the firing and he’d been told nothing else since. We asked the manager about it who said “well I’d think it would be obvious to ANYONE what that means!” Sigh:(

      1. Jadelyn*

        +100

        If I had a dime for every time a manager claimed that they’d tried and tried to coach their EE, but their EE wasn’t listening to feedback, only to find out when we talked with the EE directly that the manager had not been as clear as they thought they had been and the EE was struggling because they weren’t able to psychically glean the manager’s real desires from the conversation…I’d have a really big pile of dimes.

        Heck, we see that a lot here, too – Alison’s advice to frustrated managers almost always includes some version of “Have you actually been super blunt and specific with your staff about what you need from them?” precisely because that’s such a common problem.

        1. Leela*

          I’m glad I see it coming up here so often because I think it’s the most common error I saw otherwise good managers making. I hear you so much about indirect feedback, it’s strange to me that they always seem to think they were so clear!

        2. Elizabeth West*

          This is what happened with Exjob. OldBoss was very open and clear, but getting any information out of NewBoss was like pulling teeth. She assumed I would be familiar with stuff like their install contracts, but I had never even seen them before — they were in a virtual cabinet to which I had no access!

    6. Bea*

      The only person to ever target my personality was an insane person who went from cackling at my sense of humor to flipping it into me being “short and unfriendly” when it turned into some kind of mangled write up.

      I do know that snarky and sarcastic humor is hard in a professional atmosphere. As soon as I reeled that in more, it’s helped everyone involved. Since you’re in HR, it’s better to be pleasant and formal as possible I’ve learned as well. Joking has gotten a lot of us in hot water and I have to get on team members about that too because it’s how lawsuits start popping up. So that is most likely the kind of thing that your manager is aiming towards without making good examples (which is dumb, they should know exactly what you’re saying that’s being classified as “silly”)

    7. Phoenix Programmer*

      I recommend going back to p your manager and along her to be real blind and let you know exactly what is meant by silliness.

      “I reflected on your feedback and really want to improve but I could not nail down what you mean by silliness. Can you be brutally honest with me about specifically what I need to change to be senior leadership ready?”

    8. Not So NewReader*

      In order to sit with the leadership team….

      Does that mean when you are in meetings with leaders you need to be somber/serious?

      Or does that mean that if you want to be part of leadership you need to be more somber/serious?

      Well, either way, you have been at the job for about a year, perhaps a little less? My two cents and consider that I tend to run conservative, is that I don’t do many jokes the first year. Definitely no snark. You can joke and snark once you know them and they know you. It may not sound fair but you want to seem very focused until they get to know you and THEY start to realize you know your job. It’s irrelevant if you think you know the job, they are the ones who have to figure out you know the job.
      So what I do for that first year is take the time to observe what short of jokes and snark fly and what does not fly. We all have our personal limits as to what we think is funny, likewise as a group they have their limits. Learn their collective humor. Once you get the overall idea then wade in slowly with a joke once in a while. Watch to see how the joke is received. Look at their faces and especially their eyes when you joke. While they may not flinch you might see a flinch in their eyes. Don’t do that particular joke again and consider not making jokes of s similar type again when you see that flinch.

      I don’t know if you noticed, but there is a collective humor here on AAM. So you can watch here, too, to see what gets people chuckling on a regular basis.

  6. going anon today*

    I wrote last week about getting called abrasive, aggressive, unlikeable, and scary by management for voicing an opinion they didn’t like, and how a male coworker who voiced the same opinion didn’t get in trouble. Earlier this week, I told my manager that I did not appreciate being labelled with such adjectives because there’s a long, ugly history of calling marginalized groups abrasive, unlikeable, and scary.

    My manager seems to have forgotten that he was the one who used those words. I’m still not entirely sure if they were his words, the words of his manager, or the words of the people who “complained”. But my manager said that if I was dealing with discrimination, he’d be more than happy to set up a meeting with HR.

    He did email HR and they emailed me. I turned down the meeting because I’m honestly too tired of the entire office, and if I go in there and talk about how my manager was the one who used that language – and who apparently forgot he even used that language – and the overall toxic environment in the department, it’s just going to escalate into drama. My manager and his manager holds grudges against people for the slightest thing, and never let them go. I don’t want to deal with that. Every single time someone has gone to HR about discrimination or harassment, my department management just calls them “hysterical” or “difficult to work with” and they happen to be the next ones “laid” off during company wide layoffs.

    But, what do you all think, should I tell HR I do want to speak? Should I just keep quiet and focus on getting out of there? I’ve already decided that if I cant find anything by the end of June, I’m leaving anyway.

    1. Lady Phoenix*

      It might be worth documenting this event and any further venets, especially cases where people were forced out after making a complaint. You can take this to HR, or you can keep this to show to unemployment.

      1. Evil HR Person*

        +1
        Write everything down with dates and who said what. “Just the facts.” But know that there’s only so much that HR can do – they’re there to protect the company, after all, not necessarily to advocate for you (unless doing so would protect the company). I’m not telling you to not go to HR – a good HR department would have nipped this behavior already… but you have already seen a trend that is likely to repeat itself.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      If you’re leaving anyway, and in just 6 weeks, is there anything to lose by having the meeting with HR? Is it possible to be made more unhappy than you already are? And if so, would it be worth it anyway?

    3. Leave it to Beaver*

      I think the question is what do you want to get out of this situation. If it’s job protection or documentation — then yes tell HR. If you want your boss or those who work with you to be more aware of their words and how they might be biased, then it might be best to speak up more directly when a situation occurs, so there’s less time between the incident and the discussion and memories are clearer.

      1. going anon today*

        I did say something when it occurred and was just told it wasn’t about my gender. I just reiterated it earlier this week after my manager asked how I was doing after everything that happened.

        1. Leave it to Beaver*

          Gotcha. It seems like you still have the same two options. You can either talk to HR about it or continue to discuss it when situations arise. What you decide is based on what you want to achieve. If you think you’re being discriminated against and are concerned for your job/reputation/etc then you should document it. Or you can use these situations as teachable moments and request greater clarification from your manager about why he’s using gendered language to describe your performance.

    4. Samiratou*

      Since you’re already planning to leave, I’d say you’ve nothing to lose by bringing it up. It might not do you much good, but if you can add to the documentation around discrimination at your workplace, that could help someone in the future.

      Or if there’s a new HR boss in town or something they might actually do something about it now. Never know.

    5. BlueWolf*

      Sounds like retaliation for reporting harassment/discrimination, which is also illegal. Definitely agree with documenting any interactions going forward.

    6. Bea*

      Document it and go through the HR loop.

      If they lay you off in their next layoff procedure, go to an employment attorney immediately and file a law suit against them for retaliation. They are getting away with this because they aren’t being challenged. I know it’s tiresome and it’s disgusting but without bringing out an attorney who will destroy them next time, they will keep it up.

      Then you can own them all, get unemployment and find a job that isn’t killing you on the inside.

  7. Alternative Person*

    Has anyone ever encountered Fear Of Missing Out in a workplace context? Cause I have a co-worker who never just sits out a question even when someone else is handling it.

    1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      This goes back to a letter that I believe was posted sometime last week. There was a discussion about being a know it all and how to curb one’s know it all urges.

    2. Nonprofit Warrior*

      YES! We have a huge problem in my team with FOMO which results in co-workers stalking one anothers’ calendars, following all company-wide forums, and asking follow-up questions about scheduled time off.

      The only way we’ve found to deal with it is to have our manager make a blanket statement about her open policy for time off and meeting attendance. It helps in the short-term, but hasn’t stopped it from ramping up over and over.

    3. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      Uggghhh – my last company was REALLY, REALLY opaque. The only way that I could get the info I needed (info that directly effected my core responsibilities) was to keep my ears open and butt in whenever anyone else was “gossiping” about whatever “illicit” info they had stumbled on (I use scare quotes, bc this was just normal everyday work stuff that for whatever reason management deemed sensitive – but it was stuff that people really needed to know to do their jobs properly).

      So I think I developed a bit of what your co-worker is doing – I tried to insert myself into everything so that I wouldn’t miss out on something useful. Again – stuff I needed to know to do my job properly AND that I would be criticized for not taking into account or handling properly had I not found out about it.

      Now I’m at a new company and I’m trying to break that habit. No idea if this has anything to do with your co-worker’s motivations, but its one possible cause.

    4. beanie beans*

      I had a coworker come by my desk a few months ago to ask me a question. My cubicle neighbor walked into my cubicle, physically stood in front of me and answered the question without giving me a chance to answer. When I called him out on it later and asked him why he did that, he said he was trying to be helpful – someone had a question and he had an answer. He was totally clueless on how it looked.

      He inserts himself into every. possible. conversation. I know he’s just trying to be helpful, but it makes it seem like he doesn’t think anyone else in our office knows anything.

      1. Iris Eyes*

        That may be how he sees it but from the comments on the “know-it-all” letter it is more likely coming from a place of insecurity or of wanting to help/be useful to people. So if its FOMO it maybe more social than professional.

    5. designbot*

      Huge FOMO in my workplace. Everyone always thinks that someone else got the ‘good’ projects, or that they’re being shut out of meetings they should have been in. Designers are just a super insecure bunch.

    6. Anon for This*

      So… I do this. Not because I have the Fear of Missing Out but because I’m a nosy Know It All. Or at least, I Think I Know It All. It’s something I’m working on because it’s not really professional or considerate (both at work and in my social life). But when I do it, it’s because I feel like the person answering the question is either answering it incorrectly, incompletely, or doesn’t truly understand what is being asked of them. So I don’t know if that is what is going on with your co-worker, but that’s what’s going through my head when I jump in.

      2. Iris Eyes*

        Yes! I’d be happy to contribute to 97% of the conversations around me, work, store, home, elevator, parking lot ect. I restrain myself from commenting maybe half the time which leaves me participating in a lot of conversations but as an outsider. Maybe I’ve missed my calling in life working at an information kiosk somewhere. My brain just has a habit of collecting random information that it deems interesting for some reason or another. Location of keys apparently isn’t interesting. But what good is all that effort if when it is needed it isn’t utilized?

        Have you ever read the book Queen Bees and Wanna bees by Rosalind Wiseman? I need to reread it, its been a while. But one of the social categories she talks about is basically the information broker, their group role is to keep and spread information. The movie Mean Girls is based on the book and the character Gretchen incarnates that role.

    8. Flinty*

      I have a coworker who does this as well. She’ll jump in to answer even when she hasn’t heard half the question. Some of my coworkers react pretty rudely – rolling their eyes, tell her she’s not being helpful – and she still does it!

    9. motherofdragons*

      Yes, but online! We use an online file-sharing platform for all of our work, and folders for our projects are visible to everyone on the team, even if you’re not assigned to that specific project (this is our team culture and it would be super weird to “close” files or folders to others so that’s not an option). I have a coworker who has set her notifications to get “pinged” every time ANY folder or file is modified or added, and even if she’s not working on that project, she will almost always comment on a file to make suggestions! So if I draft something and ping my manager for his review and comment, my coworker will go in and put in her own 2 cents. It’s so irritating but I don’t know if I want to expend the energy or capital to ask her to stop (she and my boss are really close, so I’m hesitant to go to my boss for help). I tried to take the tack of “Oh you actually don’t need to worry about this,” but she says she just wants to help. The most frustrating part is that she will often say she has SO much work to do, and I want to be like “Then stop butting into mine, that will save a lot of time!”

    10. Mind your business*

      Yes! One of my teammates at my last job was this way. Every conversation that she wasn’t a part of, she would try to work herself into the conversation and ask “what’s going on?”. Eventually, myself and other teammates would end our conversation as soon as she popped up from her desk. So annoying.

    11. Admin of Sys*

      Ugh, I’m trying so hard to break that habit in myself. In my last position, we had serious communication problems, so overhearing conversations was the best way to find something out a lot of times. Added to that, I’d been there longer than 80% of my colleagues so folks assumed I knew the answer to everything. It’s been really hard in my new position both not knowing what’s going on, and also trying not to jump in to every conversation to find out, in case I need to know about it.
      But I think (hope!) I’m getting better about listening and not interrupting.

  8. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    Thank GOD it’s Friday. It has been a week.

    Hoo boy.

    Two coworkers in and out of the hospital. Both of whom I’m pretty close to. The one, who was in the ICU, seems to have mostly recovered and they sent him home. The other (who I’m really good friends with) has been in and out since last week. And that’s been hard. I’m the point person at work. Which I will happily do….but it gets tough being the one to tell the same bad news to people AND have to keep them calm and happy while freaking out internally.

    Probably explains the blistering migraine on Tuesday………

    On Monday (my birthday) I got ripped to shreds by a department for something that was not only not my responsibility but they also dropped the ball on. Tuesday the admin staff got raked over the coals be a particularly difficult llama wrangler. It was totally his fault (we all had the paper trails to prove it), but he went on a crusade to blame us all. So that was swell.

    And to top it off: I’ve heard NADA about where I interviewed.

    But. It’s Friday. And I’m going to a concert tonight wi

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      *But. It’s Friday. And I’m going to a concert tonight with my best friend. And I’m visiting my mom this weekend for Mother’s Day. Things aren’t all bad.

      (This is what happens when I drink too much coffee in the morning.)

    2. Ama*

      Ugh. I’m glad you have good weekend plans and I hope you can get away.

      It’s always fun to deal with those people who are never at fault for anything (even when they totally are).

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        Oh, he’s awful. And he blamed it (at first) on me. Which was hilarious, because it happened when I was at a dentist appointment. So it was physically impossible for it to have been my fault.

        1. Ama*

          Oh I had a person who owed me a deliverable stall for over six months, repeatedly claiming that he didn’t have the right template (despite us sending it to him multiple times), and finally when his finance department got involved (because we hadn’t paid them because they hadn’t submitted the deliverable), he filled out the report, post dated it to four months earlier and cc’d my boss, trying to claim we’d just missed it.

          I didn’t get into it with him (it was literally the last thing we needed from him to close the project), but I followed up with my boss and made sure she knew the whole story. She knows both me and him well enough to believe me but I could have proved it — since he postdated his report two weeks before he replied to one of my reminders saying he knew he hadn’t turned it in and he was working on it.

      4. Alicia_of_Blades*

        Ugh, I’m sorry. I was out at a fun work event last night when I got a rejection email. Totally killed the vibe.

    4. Keep Your Eyes On The Prize*

      I’m going to a concert tonight too! After working 13 days out of 15 because we are short-staffed. It’s going to be sweet, a Frank Sinatra tribute band.

    5. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      So, like…happy birthday, first of all – I hope your out-of-work celebrations were enjoyable. (And I hope you’re having fun at the concert!

      Second – hot damn. I’m really sorry, and I hope your coworkers get better soon!

  9. WellRed*

    I belong to a FB page for diabetes and someone yesterday asked the “is it legal” question. In this case, her boss asked “Will the stress of diabetes mean you have to stop working?” (she provided no context for the question, but I believe it was legal under the ADA). At any rate, many people commented “yes, no, sue the bastards,” etc. However one commenter said the answer to that question should always be, “absolutely not. Why do you ask?”
    I wanted to ask her if she was a regular AAM reader.

    1. DCGirl*

      The law doesn’t actually say you can ask inappropriate questions. It says that you can’t discriminate against someone based on a real or perceived disability. What adverse action has she suffered at this point?

      1. fposte*

        In general, it’s true that the “illegal interview questions” thing is more of a myth than a truth, but the one exception is disability–it’s a breach even to ask if somebody’s disabled.

        However, this isn’t an interview situation, and the boss already knows about the person’s disability. It’s a stupid question that wise employers would smack the boss for asking and she better not make a habit of that stuff, but as you say, there doesn’t seem to be any adverse action at the moment. So it also sounds like commenters have not only fallen for the illegal interview questions myth but extrapolated it to non-interview work situations.

        1. WellRed*

          Exactly, it’s different when it’s an employee you know has diabetes, vs asking an applicant. And yeah, I asked her what she thought made the question not legal. She certainly doesn’t seem to have been harmed.

        2. Info Architect*

          I’ve seen lots of online job applications recently that ask you if you have a disability. You can decline, but the fact that they even ask is appalling.

          1. AnotherHRPro*

            If a company is a federal contractor, they have to ask (by federal regulation). This information is voluntary and is kept separate from the actual application. It is used for annual analysis that the government requires.

            1. TonyTonyChopper*

              You beat me to it – sorry for the double answer, I forgot to refresh the page after I came back from lunch

          2. TonyTonyChopper*

            Just FYI – it is for data analysis purposes only. Disability is getting looped into other diversity measures, so they need to measure the applicant pool to make sure there’s not disparate impact. Just like the EEO form that asks race, gender, veteran status, etc questions, the hiring manager (for sure) and recruiter (best practice) are not supposed to be able to access that information in the applicant tracking system. It is only supposed to be accessed via system admins doing reporting (and even then it is best practice to only run that data after a job has been filled and the chosen candidate has started).

      3. Emily K*

        I think the FB commenter was saying the answer to the question of “Will diabetes make you stop working?” is “Absolutely not, why do you ask?” Not that the answer to the question of, “Is it legal?” is “Absolutely not, why do you ask?”

    2. Jady*

      “Stress of diabetes”? I know nothing about diabetes, but this question just seems strange.

      The only response that comes to my head is “Well enough stress on anyone about anything could mean a person needs leave from work. Why do you ask?”

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        A friend was asked this when applying to med school. “Will you be able to complete your clinical time due to your diabetes?” Still not a good question given the context.

      2. Video Gamer Lurker*

        As the child of a Type 1 Diabetic, I’d be willing to say that stress is a factor on any person, but the stress can exacerbate conditions to less manageable states, such as being unable to work because a person has to take care of themselves.

        Back to OP, it reads like one of those questions the boss likely thought sounded better in his/her head, and may have meant the question more in terms of accomodations.

        1. essEss*

          Exactly. I read that as a request for clarification about whether accommodations were needed or if there were going to be any issues that the boss needed to address/arrange coverage for before they occurred. The employee might have said “yes, there will be some days that I will have to arrive x hours late without much warning” (which is highly unlikely in this case for diabetes but I’m just throwing a general example of an impact of any medical condition) because the boss isn’t well-informed on the effects of diabetes.

      3. WellRed*

        As a Tpe 1, I can attest that diabetes in and of itself can be stressful apart from other life stressors but for the most part, people deal. I agree with others the question probably sounded better in the head then spoken aloud.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        Diabetes has a fairly well known connection with stress within the community of people who have it or have a loved one with diabetes.
        My husband did not do well with stress, his numbers went in the wrong direction when he was stressed. I will say that it was not that noticeable for a long time, then once it started happening it kept happening. If his stress levels went up so did his numbers. Just one person’s observations, so FWIW, I think it’s a calculative factor over time. Diabetes eats away at their systems, when our bodies aren’t working correctly it’s much easier for stress levels to accelerate. He never missed work because of his diabetes and he did receive recognition for his outstanding attendance record. I always thought he might have done a bit better in the long run if he had taken a day off once in a while.

  10. Red Herring*

    Any advice for when some of your colleagues’ work is terrible? I work in fundraising at a small nonprofit and the data entry team’s work is riddled with errors, some pretty egregious. I work in another area of our department but it’s making my job more difficult and is affecting others as well. I’ve pointed out one-off mistakes to them, had a bigger sit down meeting after bringing this up to our VP, and most recently brought these things to the attention of our newer manager, who I and the data entry team’s manager both report to, but nothing has improved.

    My manager is pretty frustrated as well but I don’t believe she is having the serious conversations that are needed. I know the usual advice is there’s a chance she’s dealing with it in ways that I can’t be a part of but given the nature of our conversations plus office politics, I think all that’s happening is some gentle coaching.

    I’m pretty frustrated at how this is making my job more difficult (which is how I frame things to my manager) and aggravated that my colleagues aren’t being held accountable. Any words of wisdom? (I am looking for a new job but there haven’t been a ton of openings and my retirement vesting is going to make it difficult to leave.)

    1. Oogie*

      I am working with someone and in a similar situation. The person I work with needs to retire, but won’t. Looking forward to the replies/advice on this.

      1. bye bye ms american pie*

        Same here, there are two dudes I work with who I just won’t give work when I can get away with it, because I then have to re-do it, or it takes them 4 weeks instead of 2 days. One of them is so notoriously bad that when I found out he was working on a project with someone, I was reflexibly like “oh no, I’m so sorry” because his work is just flat out wrong all the time. But I guess that’s what happens when the boss takes the attitude of “I’m going to wait for this dude to retire or find a new job” rather than try to fire him for cause (there’s a lot of cause and it’s been 6+ years).

      2. Ann O.*

        Me, too! And I suspect it’s for a similar reason.

        In my situation, we have a flat hierarchy on our team so there’s no one who I can meaningfully escalate to. It is infuriating. I now understand how people end up doing other people’s jobs.

        I’m at a place of acceptance that my co-worker is unlikely to change, so I’m mostly trying to figure out how to work around him to save the overall project without compromising my own work-life boundaries.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Every single time there’s a data error, email it to appropriate mgmt? If they’re getting 50 emails a day about incorrect data entry, it might make it painful enough to actually fix the problem.

      1. Emily K*

        While this might be effective, in a lot of offices it would come across as passive-aggressive to send an email every time you find a typo, especially if it means that half of the emails in someone’s inbox are you reporting a typo. It comes across a lot more I’m Making a Point than “you should be aware of this.”

        If you did want to document the size of the problem you could do a daily email that lists all errors you found that day and it would come across less like you’re trying to spam management’s inbox out of frustration.

    3. peachie*

      Ooh, this is tough. Not knowing the specifics, I would try to have a second meeting with the newer manager. There are a couple of ways you might approach this. You could present specific tasks that you aren’t able to do efficiently or at all and what is preventing you from doing that, then ask, “How do you want me to handle this?”

      Also, are there any workflow or technical solutions you can think of to suggest? It’s not your job to fix the issues, but if you can present an idea that could help, maybe your manager can implement it. I know that, even in an admin position, I got us to make some changes like making a certain database field editable, making sure all X and Y forms were directed to Coworker Z, or setting up an email group so that all relevant people got the notifications they needed.

      If you decide to have a conversation like this, I think it’s important to stay relatively positive and frame it as a “process” conversation–that is, make it about the how the actual data/work/tasks aren’t working rather than how your coworkers are doing a bad job. (It is frustrating to have coworkers like that, but I think you’ll get further if you don’t make it about that.

    4. Samiratou*

      When there’s an error do you fix it or send it back to them to fix? If it’s the former, can you start doing the latter? Sending everything back for rework should get the point across fairly quickly.

    5. Jady*

      You may have done things like this already but I figure it’s worth mentioning in case not. It sounds like a really big problem if you’ve escalated it up so high.

      The only way to ever resolve issues like this (in my experience) is to make it as painful for the people above you as it is to you.

      These are the things I would consider:

      Frame the specific issues caused by the other team to the manager, instead of just ‘being frustrated’. When you find an error, what happens next? How much time does it take to have it fixed? Does this cause delays in other work being done? Create concrete data that is measurable. Keep track of it. Numbers can make it harder to ignore, especially if deadlines are at play.

      Consider making the issues blatantly public (if office politics make this doable). Maybe in a status report format? Congregate a long list of issues, request an ETA on resolution of said issues, and describe the problems caused by these errors. Do this at regular intervals, like once a week, and copy anyone and everyone relevant and their bosses. If this affects deadlines, copy the other teams whose deadlines are at risk, and specifically state that. “I need these fixes by [X] to meet [Project] deadline of [Y].”

      Ask about implementing a process to prevent these frequent errors (specifically note the frequency). Maybe the team is so slammed that they need a data QA person before the data is released. Maybe the team just needs more people.. Maybe they need better documented data from another source? Try to determine with confidence where the specific problem in the pipeline is being created.

      If you can identify one or two employees in specific that has the worst work, push on having those specific individuals off your work. This is especially useful if you can provide numbers with it. As in “When I receive [blah] from Mark, there is a 30% increase in errors.”

      If you are fixing their work for them, stop doing that immediately. It’s masking the problem and allowing it to be ignored. You can either let the bad data go through anyway and hold them responsible when something blows up, or you can continue pointing out the problems and just stopping the work process in its tracks until these issues are fixed by THEM. Yes, this will cause delays and headaches and complaints – that’s the point. When you’re pressured about it, repeatedly response “I’m waiting for the corrections from the data team. I don’t have the bandwidth to [whatever they are doing] in addition to my own job. Please talk to [their boss/lead] about getting the data to me with better accuracy and timely manners.”

      These are all ideas that I would personally consider. YMMV.

      1. Red Herring*

        Thank you (and everyone) for your responses. While I’ve tried to make it painful for those above, there are some great suggestions that I need to try. I’m also not fixing their work for them. If it was here and there that would be one thing, we all make mistakes. But this is lacking an overall skill.

    6. Bea*

      I had to deal with this situation as a manager before, my hands were tied by my boss refusing to take it seriously. We were then told we were “bullying” the person doing the data entry because we were taking every mistake back to be corrected. Then one person in general was told to never speak to that person because they were “intimidating”, when all they were saying was “Hey, so I need you to fix this error, thanks!”. But due to the size and gravely voice God gave him, he was a big old nasty man, etc telling the smaller meeker male who was making errors that you know…he was messing things up.

      So it could go so much deeper somewhere along the chain. It could be that they’re not paying the data entry person enough and they’re just not cut out for the job, that’s what my issue all boiled down to in the end. Upper management knew and wanted to patch the hole in the chain with the cheapest labor possible (literally minimum wage). Which means you’ll probably really never have a solid person in that position or at least when you do find one, they’re gone as soon as they have the experience under the belt to get paid properly elsewhere.

      I hope that you find a new job with a real solid crew soon, I have been so much happier after going from under-trained, limited abilities, lots of open holes, too much work for each individual to a crew of well paid and properly distributed duties. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this crap.

    7. Data Guru*

      I am the database manager for the development department of a non-profit. Your database admin or development director should be able to set up some audit queries that can be run on a regular basis (daily or weekly) that can catch some of these errors. I would recommend keeping a log as well of all the errors you encounter that you can present to your boss.
      I know how frustrating this can be. Data errors can cause a lot of problems with reporting as well as contact made with donors. It is so important to have have clean data. I try really hard to not make errors and always correct errors as soon as they are brought to my attention

  11. MMM*

    Is it ok to ask about a nonprofit’s financials in an interview? And if so, how to best go about it? I can tell from the org’s website that their funding comes from donors and grants, but would like to know more about how sustainable that is, without coming across as overly skeptical

    1. bluelyon*

      It’s very ok! It’s actually very important to ask and most places would side-eye you for not mentioning it at all.
      Don’t ask the super easy things that are apparent from googling the 990 but it sounds like you have more specific questions anyways.

    2. Anon Today*

      Yes! In fact, I think that it’s critical that you do ask about that sort of thing. Although before you ask I’d look through the organization’s 990 and their website to make sure that you don’t see a reference to a long-term contract with a funder, etc. I’ve asked in interviews about why an organization is running a negative balance each year, I’ve had a few employers bristle at that question, but more often than not I’ve gotten a good reaction. And both responses have told me a lot about a potential employer.

    3. sange*

      Totally okay to do – and encouraged, depending on your function in the nonprofit – , as long as you have done some research. Read the 990 (and make sure you understand the 990 and aren’t taking anything out of context), check the better business bureau, read their annual report, and consult their website. If you’re interviewing for a marketing position, totally fine to keep the questions general. But if this is a development, executive, or financial role, feel free to ask about percentage of board giving, reliance on special event income, sustainability, earned vs contributed income…the works are all fair game.

    4. Emily K*

      Also, make sure you understand how nonprofit funding works in general, and what characterizes sustainable vs unsustainable. Most nonprofits rely on donors and grants, so that in itself is not inherently unsustainable. You want to look at things like diversification of funding sources, long-term sources, average age of donor file, etc. to separate the sustainable from the precarious.

    5. Lau (UK)*

      Absolutely normal, particularly above entry level. Review whatever finance info is in the public domain in your country (so Charity Commission for me) for the last couple of years. Ask about anything that doesn’t make sense. Things I look for include:
      – number of funders (of whatever type)
      – big changes in income
      – a profile of declining income over a few years
      – some info about overhead level, and how happy they are with where it’s at

    6. MMM*

      Thanks everyone! I was able to fit it in to the conversation pretty easily because they mentioned one particular grant coming to an end soon–just wanted to make sure I wouldn’t be committing some unknown interview faux pas!

  12. Cancer Crush Anon*

    Still waiting for the background check to go through. It’s on the last step, verifying with my previous employer. They are dragging their heels.

    Hopefully I can put 2 weeks in today or Monday. I think I will be walked out due to the notice I will be giving. Read that how you will.

    1. Long time lurker*

      Sending good vibes your way. I really hope that you can get out as soon as possible.

    5. TonyTonyChopper*

      Depending on how much time has passed, you might be able to contact your future employer to ask if they will accept W2s in place of the verification (assuming you have them on hand for the time you’ve worked for your employer).

    7. Bea W*

      My mother worked at a place where giving notice got you immediately escorted out of the building. I hope you’re background check is completed soon!

  13. Awkward anon*

    I’m in an extremely toxic environment, desperately trying to get out.

    That being said, I need some advice on how to cope with the following situation.

    I work with one other woman “Pandora”- she has been with the company for 10 years and she is the one who is training me. Requests for items are sent to Pandora first (because she was the only one doing the job at the time), and so Pandora assigns me work.

    My position was newly created, so everyone is used to Pandora doing the job by herself.

    Even though it’s just the two of us, when someone talks to Pandora about something that I’m working on, she’ll tell them, “Awkward is doing it! Talk to them about it!” Now, yes, it’s true that I’m working on it, but there seems to be no team or camaraderie. Stuff is either hers or mine. She would throw me under the bus in a second.

    Pandora forgets to tell me when she is going to be out of the office. I don’t care where she is, I just need to know that she is going to be out so I can fill in for her and do her work. Some kind of notice would be nice, but either she forgets or doesn’t want to tell me.

    Caveat: Pandora is friends with the boss, so going to him would be pointless, and he is conflict avoidant. Plus, everyone loves Pandora and would take her side over mine.

    Is there anything to do besides get out?

    1. Irene Adler*

      Does Pandora understand what the ramifications are for your not knowing when she is out of the office?

      If you aren’t able to effectively fill in for her when she’s out of the office because you weren’t informed of her absence, does that result in a consequence such as a work slow down or missed deadine for you? Can you explain to her that not being informed causes this consequence to occur? Would she be receptive to this because she would like to avoid the consequence? Or would she not care because it would only affect you? MIght be worth a conversation if you think she would be receptive.

    2. Lady By The Lake*

      I’m sorry — I’m not seeing Pandora doing anything wrong here, although not telling you when she is out could be an issue. She SHOULD be telling others when you are handling something and let you deal with it — believe me, that’s a million times better than the person who is constantly interfering in stuff that you are working on or not letting go and letting your do your own work. Maybe it is a tone thing that isn’t coming across in the posting. As for leaving without telling you — she’s been on her own for ten years and so didn’t have to tell anyone and is probably accustomed to people just waiting until she gets back. Don’t take it personally, just breezily remind her that you are there to help and are glad to do it if she will let you know that she is out.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, her not informing you when she’s going to be out is definitely an issue that you should bring up with her, but I dpn’t see the issue with referring people to you for items you are working on (now if she was referring people to you for things *she* is working on, that’s another issue).

      2. Awkward anon*

        It’s a tone thing, I guess? The director was asking her about a document that is her job to complete and the section that he wanted done was something that I informed people about. I don’t know if she was just upset and snapped, but I heard her screaming, “That’s Awkward’s job! That’s Awkward’s job!” at him one day… Now, she should be informed on the section as well and if I’m not here and she has to complete it, then what?

        1. Jady*

          It sounds like she’s possibly having her own set of issues (stress or something) and you’re feeling some of the waves caused by that.

          I know when I’m absurdly overworked, “Not my job” becomes a frequent go-to regardless if I could help or not.

          If that’s plausible it may be worth giving her some slack and trying to not take it personally.

        2. Lehigh*

          I might still be missing a piece, but from what you’ve said it sounds like Pandora may have been overloaded for a while before you came on board, and is still reactive from that stress. And if the boss and coworkers keep going to her instead of you for your projects and areas, then they aren’t respecting her time (or you!) Not at all your fault, and of course it’s not professional for her to be screaming, but if people are over-relying on her I can see why she is getting snappish.

          1. Lehigh*

            Oh, and yes, she does need to learn to let you know when she’s going to be out. Otherwise, what if you both take the same day off? As another poster suggested, perhaps a simple shared calendar would take care of this. (And unfortunately she may still need reminders, since it’s a change from her longstanding practice.)

          2. DDJ*

            I agree with this. It sounds like a super dysfunctional atmosphere overall (based on what Awkward anon has mentioned), and Pandora is probably cracking under the pressure.

            Especially if things got bad enough that they hired another person to help out with what was formerly one person’s workload. Usually for a company to get to that point, where they’ll shell out another salary, I’m thinking there were days when Pandora was coming in and crying, or the balls were being dropped, or there was a catastrophic (relatively speaking) incident.

            I was promoted 5 years ago, and I STILL have people that ask questions of me instead of my employee. “Jordan handles those requests.” “Please make sure you’re addressing these issues through the appropriate channel.” “Please let the rest of your staff know that it’s Jordan who handles these requests now.” Depending on the offender, “You know, I haven’t actually done that job since 2013, so you’ll have to talk to Jordan about it.”

            3 different people have been in that role since I left it, and somehow, numerous people still think that it’s still my job. I’m pretty collected, but I can see myself getting to the point where I start yelling “It’s Jordan’s job! It’s Jordan’s job!” I have a bajillion things to handle and everyone knows I know Jordan’s role as well, so they circumvent the process. And I get it, I mean, I’m amazing and wonderful and everyone adores me. Who wouldn’t want to talk to me? But still, I have my own job to do.

            And at first, I was just continuing to do my job and about 1/3 of the other job. And I realized that I was doing my employee a disservice by not “delegating” appropriately, and I was doing myself a disservice by taking on a bunch of things that didn’t really belong to me.

            Now! As far as letting you know when she’s out of the office, that can be addressed without things getting too murky, I think. Come at it from a helpful angle. “Hey Pandora, last time you were out of the office I didn’t know you were going to be out, and if I’d known, I would have done A and B, so you didn’t have to deal with them when you got back. Do you think that we should have a shared calendar, or are you ok with just letting me know when you’re going to be out of the office?”

            Because you’re not policing her, you really do want to help her out, and I think that’s the way you want to address this.

        3. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

          To answer the part of “what then”…

          I’m someone who does value a pretty clear division of work. I have my stuff, you have your stuff. I’ll tell you if any of my stuff is going to effect or change your stuff, or I’ll ask questions about your stuff if it will effect my stuff, but otherwise I refer people to my colleagues if someone asks me about something that is “not my stuff”. Just because I find it more organized and efficient that way.

          That said – my team and I all do cross training and we use an alldept email group as a CC to keep each other in the loop for important things (so I don’t really pay much attention to those emails beyond a cursory glance, but I have it available in my inbox if I need details). So yeah, if random person asks me about the due date for project x, and x is Jane’s responsibility, I just say “ask Jane, it’s her responsibility”, but if Jane is out, then I’ll do my best to help the asker out. I would never just ignore a request or let it go undone (b/c I do still consider myself a team player – and would be happy to help if Jane is swamped and she specifically asks me to help), its just that if Jane is available, it’s probably best if Jane handles it.

          I’m wondering if maybe this is just a matter of different ideas/preference in workflows or division of responsibility? Like I said, I prefer a pretty clear division of responsibility (and maybe Pandora feels similarly), but maybe you’re someone who doesn’t prefer that because it feels cold or isolating or something similar? Unfortunately Pandora has seniority and popularity on you, so her preference is going to win out.

    3. Laura*

      Have you asked her about the stuff that you need her to change, in order for you to do your work and cover hers?

      Also, if I were you I would be really mad if someone said they were working on my tasks/projects instead of sending people my way. Just a different perspective

    4. Brooklyn99wasCancelled*

      The work requests come in through Pandora — but when work is assigned to you, are you creating an open communication to the original requester? Or do you send work product/communication through Pandora, allowing her to ‘own’ the transaction?

      Have you met with any of the departments/requesters to get a sense of their end of things (their needs, their deadlines, their dept goals)?

      Learn the system the best you can, make sure you have a good grasp of the big picture and the smaller details. You want to establish yourself as a good resource, a knowledgeable worker. You are not in competition with Pandora – this is not a battle (even if Pandora thinks it is). What will make you stand out is if you make yourself a known, reliable and responsive worker. This means developing relationships and keeping your ears and eyes open.

    5. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I don’t want to be unsympathetic, and I take you at your word that you are unhappy in an environment that doesn’t seem to be a good fit for you, but the two examples you gave would not be “toxic” or even a “situation” in my experience. It’s might be inconvenient to not know when coworkers are going to be out, but certainly as soon as you see she is not at her desk that day, you can adapt to cover whatever you’re supposed to cover. You could propose a shared calendar to the boss if it really impacts the work flow — it doesn’t have to be a conflict at all, “Hey boss, I realize that the department didn’t need a shared calendar when it was just you and Pandora, but I’m finding it difficult to cover XYZ task when I’m not aware that Pandora is out for (time period). Can we all set up a shared calendar to just mark off days we won’t be in the office?” With just 3 of you (or 2 if you don’t need to include the boss) you can even use an old fashioned paper calendar on the wall.

      As for her directing people to you on jobs that you now do — that seems completely normal. People need to know that you are the point person on those and you need to build up your visibility. It’s way better than her undermining you by always stepping in on your work. I would hate it if a coworker or even my manager sidelined me on my own projects to answer questions — they may give out bad information that then comes back to bite me.

      1. Awkward anon*

        The example isn’t toxic, but my work place is. My post is just wanting advice on how to deal with this situation in an already stressful environment.

        1. Natalie*

          I think this might be a situation where you’re at BEC mode with the job and environment in general, and it’s coloring how you view a fairly unremarkable interaction. In which case, just being aware of that might help you handle it in the meantime.

    6. Yep*

      Document everything and CC your boss if you have to, or vice versa, asking direct questions. Example: Pandora takes off without telling you. As soon as you realize it, send an email to your boss that says, “Pandora is off today, but I wasn’t aware. What should I do about X and X?” Or if Pandora gives you vague or unhelpful instructions, outline what she said in an email, CC the boss, and ask her to confirm/clarify with specific questions. I know it sounds like it will tick them both off, but the only way you can cover yourself is to have documented evidence that Pandora is the one creating problems, not you, especially since she and the boss are friends.

    7. OhBehave*

      Is Pandora upset that you were hired to take some of her workload? There is that possibility! She sounds prickly when someone questions her about work that’s yours. Almost defensively. If she ruled the roost for 10 years then she may be upset that you are there. I wonder if she had a choice in what duties were handed over to you.

      1. Awkward anon*

        I sensed this too- when I’m assigned something, she’ll say, “Well, they seem to think you’re some sort of expert” or something snotty like that. Of course when the boss rolls around she’s all smiles, but when it’s just the two of us, she seems to be seething with anger, yet tries to mask it. The boss assigned me to a project and she seemed jealous- she and another coworker in FRONT OF ME were talking about the fact that “Awkward is handling this project” and they were upset. Um, hello? I CAN HEAR YOU. Plus, it’s not my fault! I didn’t want to do the darn thing, but I can’t say that.

        1. OhBehave*

          I think that’s it then. That in itself is toxic. I would put it back on her though. Allison often advises a bewildered look to comments like this. “Why would you say that? or That’s what I was told to do.” I also wouldn’t put it past her to sabotage you. Kind of like some people omit an ingredient from a recipe when it’s shared. Passive/aggressive as hell.

    8. ..Kat..*

      If she is out and doesn’t tell you, can you just not cover for her? Let her deal with the mess when she gets back?

  14. Sadie Doyle*

    I applied for an internal position, had a conversation with the hiring manager and a phone screen with HR. Yesterday I got a vague meeting invite (topic: “Short Discussion”) from the hiring manager for Monday morning.

    I hope I got the job, because otherwise it’s going to be a terrible way to start the week.

      1. Sadie Doyle*

        Thank you!

        I got an encouraging sign — my current grandboss dropped by my cubicle, asked if everything was finalized, and when I gave him a confused look, he said “Nevermind, don’t listen to me!” and walked away very quickly.

        1. Totally Minnie*

          That’s super encouraging! I had a similar situation with the job I’m currently in. I had an internal interview, and the next day my grandboss saw me in the hall and said “Hey, great news!” I asked what news, and he backtracked. I got the offer the next day.

          I so, so hope that’s what’s about to happen in your story, Sadie!

          1. Beatrice*

            Yep, happened to me too, with the transfer I was offered a few weeks ago! My boss asked me in a quiet moment if they’d given me a good offer, and my response was, “Uh, what? I’m getting an offer? What have you heard?” He laughed and said nevermind, and told me to act surprised. The hiring manager contacted me to discuss the offer about four hours later. (It was a good offer, but I negotiated anyway and got more.)

  15. Anon in the city*

    I had a phone interview on Monday. The guy said he would call the next day to schedule a second phone interview. It’s now Friday. Is it safe to assume that they won’t call

    1. Evil HR Person*

      Nope. Assume nothing. Recruiting timelines are always WAY slower than they should be, and the person who interviewed you may have given you a very optimistic timeline that in no way was realistic. Do continue your search, though, just in case.

    2. You don't know me*

      That sucks. Hopefully they are just moving slowly and you’re still in it.

    3. Chloe*

      Do you have the ability to call the person who called you? Or follow up with an email? Life often gets in the way of our good intentions, even when it comes to our job expectations. If it is possible to follow up on your end, I would do so.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      As you always should, assume you didn’t get the job and move on mentally. Then if something happens, it is a good thing. But the other thing to know is that timelines in hiring are never as smooth or as short as folks want them to be.

  16. Llama Wrangler*

    If I wasn’t ever formally rejected for a role, is it inappropriate to email the hiring manager to ask to be considered for another open role?
    —
    The longer version of this is that when I initially applied for the “Llama Wrangling” position, they also had a “Llama Farmer ” position open, and they asked (in both the screen and the first interview) if I’d want the Llama Farmer position. I told them that I’d prefer Llama Wrangling but I’d potentially be open to Llama Farmer if it was the right “farm.” (The hiring manager for the Llama Farmer roles was in the screen and the third interview, and was my initial point of contact.)

    I was advanced to the finalist stage, to the point that they checked at least some of my references, but now they’ve dropped off the map, and I haven’t heard from them in about a month. I reached out to the Llama Wrangling hiring manager a week ago to see if anything had changed with their timeline, and I did not get a response. (I know some of you will say “hiring moves slowly; just wait.” For context, my last interview was in early March, and the interview process moved quickly)

    Assuming I don’t hear from them by the end of next week or the week after (meaning 2-3 weeks since my follow up and 5 weeks since our last contact) is it appropriate for me to email both hiring managers and ask to be considered for the Llama Farmer role? Should I acknowledge I don’t know my status for the Llama Wrangling position? They hire a lot more Llama farmers than they do Llama wranglers, so I could potentially wait until June, but I also don’t want to wait too long because theye are probably aiming to wrap up their Farmer hiring by June.

    1. Specialk9*

      You might ping them, saying you’re thinking of applying to that other position, assuming the Wrangler position has likely been filled– but wanted to make sure since you really would love to be a Wrangler.

    2. TonyTonyChopper*

      My guess (YMMV) is that either they chose a final candidate who hasn’t started yet and you’re the “silver medalist” candidate that they’ll reach out to if their first choice doesn’t walk through the door on Day 1 OR they filled it but the recruiting/TA person in charge of managing the actual job in their system hasn’t closed it out yet and sent the rejections (and the HM probably just forwarded your email to the recruiter/TA person to deal with instead of responding since that’s “not their job”).

      I’d apply for the Farmer position, and if/when you get the first call from their recruiting team, tell them about the Wrangler job and that you haven’t heard back but would be interested in the Farmer role if that’s no longer available. That way the recruiter can (should) reach out to the other person in charge of the Wrangler role (if it is a different person) to see if they can move forward with you, or, if it is the same recruiter, will follow up with you directly once they see your name and remember that they haven’t dispositioned you yet.

    3. Llama Wrangler*

      In an interesting twist, both the position I applied for and the llama farmer position were just reposted. I think I’ll give it another week and then do as Specialk9 suggested, unless anyone wants to jump in and tell me that’s a bad idea! (They do have a general recruitment email, but it doesn’t seem like they have recruitment staff outside of the hiring managers I’ve already been in touch with, since all of my communication came immediately from them.)

      1. Bea W*

        This sounds so much like a company I interviewed with in early March. They called my references then everything stalled. I ended up moving on figuring if they really were that interested in me, they would have either offered or kept an open and transparent dialogue during any delay. There was a second position I was interested in, but given my experience with this part of the process, I no longer have much desire to work there. I ended up with a great offer from another company a few weeks later.

        Apply to the other position if you’re interested, but it’s probably wise to look elsewhere.

  17. AnonyMs.*

    There is a woman in our office who is driving me– and, I suspect, my colleagues — crazy. Because of some restructuring and rearranging, she has to move to another office, and it’s causing no end of drama. Part of this is likely because her cube, which she’s occupied for about 10 years, is a disastrous mess. But she’s basically refusing to do it, citing health issues yet refusing any help.

    This ordinarily wouldn’t be my problem, but this week she missed a deadline for something I needed her to do. She didn’t communicate with me about it while she was working on it, just said I wasn’t getting it that day because she’s been too busy. Now, it’s not my job to police her schedule, yet when I see her talking to our office manager for the 1000th time about how unfair it is that she has to move, I start to get irritated.

    Our culture is such that I don’t feel comfortable calling her out, which is another problem. Her manager doesn’t like to manage her. All I want is some communication, to know if I shouldn’t expect what I need BEFORE I need it, because  honestly a day or two doesn’t usually make a huge difference. But that should be my call. I’m senior to her but she often likes to remind me that she’s been here forever and I’m still new (been here for just under a year). I need to bring this up to my boss, but I need to avoid sounding like I’m simply complaining. I also need him to remind her that most of the time I am his proxy, and he’s done that before, but I want to ask him to reinforce it. Any thoughts?

    1. Laura*

      Concentrate on exactly what problems her behaviour is causing. The focus should be on how to solve those, instead of laying blame. (If he’s half-way decent, he’ll know she’s a problem anyway)

    2. CatCat*

      It sounds like you don’t actually have authority over Cersei? Correct me if that is wrong.

      I’d email her, so it’s in writing if her missing deadlines last minute becomes a pattern. “Cersei, if you aren’t going to be able to meet a deadline, I need to know sooner than the due date. Please give me 1-2 days notice so I can adjust accordingly. Thanks!”

      That may solve it. But if it does become a pattern, I would raise it with boss since it is impacting your work. “Boss, Cersei has been missing deadlines and only letting me know at the last minute. This is impacting my work in X, Y, Z fashion.” And let him deal with it.

    3. Specialk9*

      We had a coworker like that in a past job. I believe she is actually a hoarder, unfortunately. The strategy is to wait for her to retire or pass, and clean it then. It is sad, but would also be cruel to pull away her seen security blankie.

      1. AnonyMs.*

        She can’t stay where she is. The “rearranging” will include construction, hence the move to another office.

    4. OhBehave*

      Can you address this with your boss in a way to make it seem like he’s helping solve a problem (he is, but…)? Something along the lines of, “Boss, how would you suggest I approach Joanie about missing my deadlines? I’ve done xyz but….. I think she’s stressed over moving and I don’t want to add to her issues.”
      I’ve read Allison recommend soft-pedaling this to get what you want without sounding like a whiner.

    5. only acting normal*

      We have an office hoarder. She somehow eneded up with two filing cabinets when we’re only supposed to have one each. And hers are stuffed solid – facilities had to move one recently and the poor guy almost got a hernia shifting it.
      She’s retiring next year. I’m thinking bonfire.

  18. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Popping in briefly to say that I LOVE my new job!

    Sending good vibes to Wannabe Disney Princess and everyone else who is currently looking!

    5. Sapphire*

      That’s excellent!

      Thanks so much for the kind words. My supervisor at this temp job seems really pleased with my work so far, though I’m noticing some anxieties that are probably leftovers from being in such a toxic environment for so long, and feeling like because I don’t have wrist pain I’m not working hard enough. I’m trying to apply to three jobs a week, and I want to start networking again.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        You should ask your supervisor if there is any chance of your temp assignment becoming a permanent placement!

  19. Long time lurker*

    Small question, but what do you think of the term “cube buddy” (referring to the person who sits in the cube across from you, and therefore, often the person you end up talking to a lot)?

    I feel like this phrase is something I wouldn’t hear outside of my office and when I first heard it, it seemed…. off? I’ve gotten used to it by now, but I’m curious. Is this a normal phrase in the professional world or does it seem almost infantilizing?

    1. Bekx*

      I called my “cube buddy” my “Cubemate”. Other people in my office have said things similar. It doesn’t bother me.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, I use Cubemate or Cube-neighbor. Cube-buddy is a little too cutesy for me, but it wouldn’t bug me.

    2. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      I’m not mortally offended by it, but it is not a term I would use. I typically call the folks in the surrounding cubes my “Cube Neighbors” or just “neighbors”. Buddy just has a weird/gross connotation to me. No idea why, it just feels icky. But that’s a me problem.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      It wouldn’t bother me in and of itself, unless the person using it also did or said other things that seemed patronizing. It just seems like a casual term for work friend.

    4. whistle*

      Never heard the term before, but I kinda like it. I think it perfectly captures that you are “friends” via proximity and nothing else. It has no sexual or gender connotations (unlike “work wife/husband”) and implies a shared camaraderie.

      1. SoCalHR*

        I disagree a little – buddy is often a term used for a little boy, so it could have some gender/condescending connotations (I saw your post after i finished my one below). But most of the time its probably fine.

        1. bonkerballs*

          While I agree that the way you describe is certainly a way buddy is described, I think it’s far more utilized the a non-gendered way like Long Time is using it. In the preschool I used to work for it was used everything – everyone had a nap buddy or a field trip buddy or a playground buddy. At my current workplace, all of the staff members have a safety buddy (so in the event of some kind of emergency there’s for sure someone who is thinking of you and making sure you’ve gotten to safety or whatever).

    5. BuffaLove*

      I feel like it’s a little strange that you hear it that often. I might jokingly refer to my neighbor in the next cubical over as my “cube buddy,” but that’s probably come out of my mouth once or twice in two years. If someone is using it all the time instead of the person’s name, I could see how that would be irritating.

    6. SoCalHR*

      I’ve heard cubemate before, I would just make sure cube buddy doesn’t inadvertently condescend the ‘buddy’ as you allude to (for example if an older man is calling a younger man cube buddy, then it may be a bit condescending to the younger man, if two women of generally the same age use the term it probably isn’t a big deal)….just please don’t say work husband/wife (lol – I know that has been discussed on this board many a time before).

    7. lady moods*

      In my workplace we usually say “cubie,” that might be more comfortable than saying “buddy” which has that implication of Friendship. YMMV though!

      1. Specialk9*

        I like Cubie! It makes me imagine a bunch of animated cubes tottering around on their points.

    8. peachie*

      I… don’t think I have an opinion on that? I’ve said it and had it said to/about me and never gave it a second thought. (Also, re: another response, I’m generally very sensitive to gendered language, but I don’t see “buddy” as a gendered word.)

      I can see how the particular work-relationship dynamics could play into it? Like, I’ve only ever had cube buddies who I was friendly (if not friends) with and who were on roughly the same “level.”

    10. Work Wardrobe*

      I don’t see anything wrong with being called a buddy. It might feel too-too for the caller to call you a “friend” — so “cube buddy” fits for this casual relationship.

      Personally, I prefer “cellmate.”

      1. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Up to now, I’ve always used officemate, but from henceforth I shall switch to cellmate.

        Cube buddy is a bit to cutesy for me so I’ve always used officemate. In this context, I don’t see a need to differentiate between a workspace with permanent walls (office) and one with movable ones (cube).

    11. miyeritari*

      I’ve never heard of it. I don’t *love* it, but I wouldn’t take it to mean anything significant if there weren’t other things that didn’t make me feel like it was intending to be patronizing.

    12. Delphine*

      I think, in this context, it’s the “partner” definition of buddy. As in, “study buddy” or “walking buddy”. So I wouldn’t consider it initializing. Just a way of explaining who a person is in fewer words (“the person I share a cubicle with” vs. “cube buddy”).

    13. Iris Eyes*

      I think the pronunciation issues are the true issue here. Difficult to separate the words with that double “b” so probably ends up smooshed together into its own compound term. Ceubuddy

      I would bet there would be some regional trends on the acceptability of the term. (Bud is more likely to be used derisively in my experience) Similarity to study buddy, as one with whom you are in a mutually beneficial relationship related specifically to a shared activity with no social expectations outside of that function seems analogous.

    14. Thegs*

      It reminds me of basic training, where stony faced drill sergeants had to unironically call each other “battle buddy”.

      “Buddy” was silly then and comes off just as silly now.

  20. can't take it*

    Advancement/Development people – how bad does it look to leave a job after only 1 year in this field specifically? I’ve always been under the impression that it had to be a 2 year minimum because so much of the job is relationship dependent and things only happen once a year.
    But – my job sucks. My coworker actively undermines me since I replaced her best friend and have found ways to grow the events and giving day results. I’m hardly infallible – most of this is because I’m not stuck in doing things the way they have always been done and I was given a mandate to switch things up – plenty is sheer luck.
    Beyond the undermining she yells at me, at our boss at everyone. The culture in general is petty and mean, with a heavy dose of if you’re in you’re in and if you’re not one of the in crowd then they’ll be awful.

    We are in a precarious financial position so I could probably spin it as why I want to leave… but if I leave at the 18 month mark instead of 3 years how bad will it look? The stress and misery has led me to gain weight, I’m miserable in my personal life and I hate everything about my job – but I like my field and don’t want to give it up.

    1. Schnoodle*

      It’s about a pattern, not a single one off. No smart hiring manager would think it bad of you to quit a position you say wasn’t a good fit. I’d practice nice ways to explain that where company doesn’t look bad of course, but that’s fine.

      Think of it this way, you stay there 3 years, you’re asnwer for why you left is “it wasn’t a good fit.” “And it took you 3 years to figure that out?” “um…no at year 1 I knew but stayed on to toruture myself another 2 years so I wouldn’t have to answer this question.”

      2. Specialk9*

        Yeah, it’s the pattern, not the one off. Leave! Especially early in your career, that helps you get a better salary.

    2. Overworked and Underpaid*

      New development professional here so I don’t have the specific guidance you’re looking for, but the average time a development professional stays in one position is actually 18 months. They usually leave due to burnout or a higher pay.

      I can’t say how it will look to employers but I can stay you wont be deviating from the norm

    3. BRR*

      It depends on the rest of your job history and also what you do. I’ve seen quite a few gift officers who seem to move around a lot which I don’t quite understand how they keep getting jobs but I know they’re more in demand.

    4. Brooklyn99wasCancelled*

      You don’t have a coworker problem, you have a manager problem. No harm in looking for a new job – not like you have a lifetime cap on job searching. If no success now, you can always try again at the 3yr mark.

    5. EEK! The Manager*

      This is purely anecdotal based on my own NP experience and recent job search… it seems like in the NP world, and development in particular, there is a lot of turnover. My guess as to why is because it can be a stressful position and folks need to find a position and org that is the right fit in order to be effective and also enjoy the work. You’ve made it over a year – I think that is fine!

      1. k.k*

        That’s been my experience as well. I don’t think 18 months will look unusual in the development world.

    6. AnotherHRPro*

      The truth is, it depends. And if you are miserable then you need to decide find your own balance when you look at the pros/cons. I will say that with only 12-18 months of experience you will basically be considered not having any experience. Generally folks are looking for candidates with a few years of experience. Less than 2-3 just isn’t much for the very reasons you mentioned.

    7. can't take it*

      This is all reassuring – I have a decent amount of experience in the work world and field in general (8 years) but my last job was on the funding side so I’m a little out of sync with current norms.
      My tradeoff was always that I wanted measurable growth which I can show over three years – but maybe looking now isn’t as bad as I had thought.

    8. rldk*

      Also in nonprofit Development – 18 months is how long I was in my last job, which was also due to a horrible manager. It seems to be a trend that many nonprofit development managers were promoted from Major Gift Officer without gaining any management skills, and are thus not great at being bosses. If you focus on the positives you see in a new job in terms of culture fit and responsibilities, I highly don’t an HM will care unless it becomes a pattern.

    9. Lau (UK)*

      As a development director, 18 month to 2 year stays wouldn’t phase me at all, especially below head of level.

      Dev work is stressful, there’s a high burn out rate and there are a lot of pretty toxic environments out there. It’s also worth thinking about what kind of development suits you, and totally normal to give roles that broaden that experience a try (for example, I don’t love major donor work, because I struggle with being nice to very wealthy people whose stance on some things clashes with my organisational values but who give for the cachet, learned this by doing, and have therefore found a director role where we don’t do that).

  21. anon project co-manager*

    I’ve got a coworker who is either swamped with work and doesn’t have energy to deal with a large project we’re working together on OR is passive-aggressively waiting the initiative out so she doesn’t have to work on it. Based on our previous interactions, and how not excited she is about this initiative, I think it’s 50/50 which it is.

    So, question: do I talk with her about it? Do I go to her manager? My manager? I’m not really sure how to ask someone why they’re not doing the work they were assigned.

    1. Seriously?*

      I would probably go to my manager and say that she seems to busy to work on in and ask if someone else can do it. That brings the problem to her attention without the negativity. If it gets reassigned, great! She is no longer your problem. If her manager gets pulled in and her workload evaluated, then it will be harder for her to avoid it. Of course, you should first go to her and talk to her about the project. Set up some internal deadlines and don’t go to your manager until she actually misses them or tells you she can’t do the project.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Unless there’s a good reason not to, I’d always give the coworker themselves the first chance at answering. Going straight to a manager before asking them directly is pretty aggressive. If that proves unsatisfactory, go to your manager and not hers. If her manager needs to get involved, it should come from your manager.

      1. Specialk9*

        This. Cheerfully assume good will, but I’m writing :) Then later you can go to your manager, but you have to talk directly to someone first.

    3. A Person*

      I would ask her first and go to your manager if her response isn’t satisfactory.

      I have to admit I was this person one time. It was a combination of both; resentment about an extra project being put on my already full plate and also about it being that particular project, which had been stopped and restarted multiple times and I didn’t think it would ever actually be completed. (It was actually put on hold again.)

  22. DCGirl*

    After being laid off on at the beginning of February, I am pleased to report that I’m finishing Week 2 of a new job that I really like. It was a tough and financially stressful three months, but things are definitely looking up.

    6. Specialk9*

      That’s delightful news! Go you!

      I don’t usually read the open threads, and today’s has lots of good news. Glad I tuned in.

  23. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    I plucked up the courage to ask for a raise! …And then they told me I had already gotten a raise this year. (facepalm) BUT, my manager said she would try to get me a better raise, so that’s something!

    2. Denise*

      Great response from your manager. Yeah, I’ve definitely not realized I had received a raise in the past and later thought, oh no, I probably should have thanked my boss or something.

  24. Wendy Darling*

    A wardrobe question!

    I’ve worked at West coast tech companies my entire career so the dress code is incredibly lax. My current employer, though, goes on-site at client offices, and most of our clients are way more buttoned up, so I need a business trip wardrobe that’s appropriate for, say, visiting an East coast bank.

    I have the clothes and shoes sorted but I’m stuck on bags. I need a laptop bag. My work laptop is not light and I have back problems so I prefer to use a backpack, but I’m not sure that’s considered appropriate for women in a Serious Business Casual environment. Do I need a briefcase or tote instead?

    Anyone more familiar with East coast conservative dress codes care to weigh in? Links to appropriate bags much appreciated.

    2. skipjack*

      I work in NYC. Backpacks should be fine, especially if they’re nice. Try TUMI, Kenneth Cole, Elizabeth and James, Rebecca Minkoff, Timbuktu, and some of the dressier Thule bags.

      1. Effo K*

        I’m a west coast transplant currently working in the east coast. I have a nice, stylish backpack with a handle on the top. When I’m traveling/commuting, I wear it like a backpack. When I get to where I’m going (formal meeting, etc) I slip it off and carry it by the top handle. While I’m still carrying a backpack, it doesn’t look as much like a kid on their way to school (which is my own personal fear).

        1. Wendy Darling*

          This is also my fear! I went from west coast grad student to west coast tech worker and frankly those involve the exact same wardrobe. I also sometimes read younger than I am, although luckily still adult.

          The client I’m likely visiting first is really difficult and likes to fight us on things and question our expertise (even though they hired us because… we are experts at this… idk) so I don’t want to give them ANY excuse to doubt my competence. The last thing I need is for them to get all “Why would we listen to Wendy, she dresses like a 12 year old,” because I’m doing something with my clothes or accessories that is 100% appropriate where I work but not where they work.

      2. Nessun*

        I have a Thule backpack, it has some great pockets & spaces for laptops and tablets and such – and it sits really well on my back. It’s quite sleek, and I use it for business (daily, and when I travel). Definitely would recommend it!

      3. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

        Same here – in NYC and work in finance (but spent some time in some very formal law offices)! I use a faux-leather backpack (simple and black – got it off Amazon for less than $20) as my gym bag (but it has a laptop pouch inside it). I get positive comments on it all the time. I even wore it while interviewing, and it seemed to garner a positive reaction. I also see a lot of women with similar types of backpacks in suits/dressier business attire.

        I would just keep it very simple. Solid color, nothing too bright or eye catching. Just look for a backpack made out of similar materials (and with a similar aesthetic) as a briefcase/laptop bag/tote that you would feel is business appropriate. I’d also look for one that isn’t particularly deep (as in it doesn’t stick out too far from your back) and on the smallish side in general – just to avoid the look of a small schoolchild with a comically oversized backpack.

        This is very similar to the bag I have (thought not the exact one):
        https://www.amazon.com/Vintage-Synthetic-Leather-College-Backpacks/dp/B019ZMWVDW/ref=br_lf_m_cnpp9qfdefuk935_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&s=apparel

        I also kind of like the look of ones with a flap that comes over the top (moves it away from the classic schoolchild backpack) like this:
        https://www.amazon.com/Coofit-Leather-Backpack-Schoolbag-Daypack/dp/B07797WK2Q/ref=sr_1_33?ie=UTF8&qid=1526054085&sr=8-33&keywords=leather+backpack

        There’s also some really nice looking wool backpacks out there. This one seems pretty sleek/sharp:
        https://www.amazon.com/Backpack-Evecase-Accessory-Chromebook-Ultrabook/dp/B01MD26FGZ/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1526054200&sr=8-7&keywords=wool+backpack

    3. Emi.*

      I don’t work in a conservative office, but I see lots of people on the metro (DC) in suits and backpacks. I think they’re mostly men, but not exclusively.

    4. Sam.*

      Not cheap, but you might look at Lo & Sons. I’ve had my work bag from there for ages, and my friend with neck/back issues was overjoyed with their backpack options. We both live in cities and get around entirely on public transportation or on foot, so we pretty much live out of them.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I actually used to have the OMG from Lo & Sons but got rid of it because it hurt my back and also the corners got holes in them after two business trips! I wonder if the quality has improved, because I was livid at the time due to how much I spent on that bag.

    5. Lady Phoenix*

      Since you do have back problems, I would opt for a backpack that is solid colored. Black is the best bet, but Vera Bradley do sell laptop backpacks (Campus Backpack) in solid colors if you want a different color/quilted fabric (red and navy are nice color options).

      Avoid patterns and cheap looking backpacks. If it looks like a crappy $10 kid’s pack, it is gonna look so unprofessional.

      And backpacks are fine for women. If you are gonna be hauling for laptop around for business, you should buy a bag that makes your confortable and happy.

    6. Lady By The Lake*

      I have never seen a woman with a laptop backpack. If it is so big that having an ordinary laptop bag or nice tote isn’t an option, most bank business people and consultants use a roller bag.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        +1. Southeast region here. Plenty of businesswomen (and men) use a roller bag. None above entry level use a backpack.

      2. periwinkle*

        Pacific Northwest here. I see backpacks at the mid-management level and below at my employer (huge corporation); people tend to switch to roller bags as they go up the hierarchy. This is regardless of gender or age. If you’re dressed in business rather than business casual, you’re dragging a bag instead of wrinkling the wool.

        Our corporate laptops are heavy beasts, which may explain why I’ve never seen anyone here carry a messenger bag.

        1. Wendy Darling*

          Yeah I’m in the PNW and everyone carries backpacks. My mom jokes that at the airport she just goes to the gate where everyone has a backpack and that’s the one for my city.

          When I worked for Tech Giant even people at the director and VP level carried backpacks. I never saw our SVP carry anything though. Like literally the man never had anything in his hands unless it was a cup of coffee or his laptop. I have no idea how he transported his stuff — either he had a second set of gear at home and didn’t transport his stuff, or when you made SVP they gave you access to the laptop teleporters. And even at the C-level no one wears a tie unless they have a Very Important Meeting. One of the most senior guys in my org came to work every day in sandals, cargo shorts, and a white t-shirt. In winter he wore white athletic socks with the sandals.

          2. only acting normal*

            I’m guessing the SVP has an assistant of some kind? Our executives have a junior staff member (from the technical ranks) as an assistant; people do it for about a year then come back to technical work. Locally it’s known as being a “bag carrier”. While there’s a lot more to it than that (obviously) there’s a grain of truth to the name!

        2. The New Wanderer*

          Must be a PNW thing – we were issued laptop backpacks when we received laptops, although I did see a variety of roller bags that others chose to use. I still use my backpack when travelling but I really like some of the options posted on this thread!

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      I have a rolling laptop/overnight bag. It’s got a compartment for tech, but also another compartment with enough room for a change of clothes, pjs, and toiletries. It has a handle to carry like a brief case, but it also has wheels so you can roll it along behind you. Carry on size for flights. It’s GREAT, and I highly recommend it.

      2. Wendy Darling*

        I actually do have a carryon bag with a laptop compartment! Unfortunately these trips are usually 2 1/2 working days plus a travel day so I don’t think all my nonsense will fit in it unless I leave the laptop out of it. :/ Also I’ll be having to schlep my laptop to the client site every day AND leave for the airport directly from the client site — my original plan was to use my existing (bright blue with red trim) backpack for the flight and then get a cheap but nice tote for client site time, but then I realized we’re often going straight from the client site to the airport. Ugh.

        My first trip is going to be to see a particularly difficult, prickly client so I’m obsessing.

        1. NicoleT*

          Can you use the carry-on plus another bag? Think a wide weekender bag (solid color or thick stripe).

    8. Shan*

      I have a convertible leather laptop bag that can be carried like a briefcase or tote, or zip into a rolling suitcase type of thing. I think it’s made by McKlein.

    9. Susan Sto Helit*

      I think a backpack is absolutely acceptable, though if you’re worried you could look for one like this: https://www.moshi.com/bags-backpack-helios-lite that can reasonably be taken off the back and carried in looking like a normal-ish bag once you get to the client (I haven’t tried this specific bag myself so can’t comment on its usability, only appearance).

      It might also be worth talking to your company about getting you a smaller laptop (or a tablet-with-keyboard) if you’re going to be transporting it a lot though. There’s no good reason that you should be having to haul a heavy laptop around with you all the time when there are so many lighter options available now.

    10. peachie*

      I think backpacks are fine if you’re mostly carrying a bag at the beginning/end of the day–it might not be the most professional look if you’re frequently carrying it around during the days for meetings, etc., but otherwise I don’t think it would be a problem.

      Otherwise, a laptop bag (or just a bag that fits your laptop) in a neutral leather is always a safe choice.

    11. KC*

      Maybe you can look for a leather lap top backpack. I did some googling and found a few. To me, leather always looks a bit more professional. Another option, depending on your business and work culture, is to look for a professional looking bag on wheels. I googled (again) “wheeled work bag”and found a few really nice looking bags. Now I kind of wish I had a business need for one of those. Hope that helps!

    12. East Coast Transplant from the Pacific NW*

      Depending on where you are on the East Coast, I think a backpack will be…unusual…Particularly if you have a contentious, fragile or new relationship, or are working on a project that requires that you are authoritative and serious. The safer bet will be a tote or briefcase in a conservative color and style. Or even a nice rollerbag, if you have more than just a laptop to carry. There are lots of good suggestions for brands above. But I would advise against bringing anything that looks casual, or outdoorsy, or gear-y, or travel-y. I know this is so boring! But you will feel a lot less self-conscious.

    13. Fiennes*

      I’d go with a messenger bag/backpack combo, one of the bags that can be worn either way. Something in a nice canvas with leather trim will look pulled together without being too fancy for business casual. You can find similar bags for around $50-$60 on Amazon.

    14. Jady*

      I’ve seen a couple women with something like a huge tote bag on wheels. They pulled it around like luggage in an airport, but it could also be carried.

      No idea what it’s called though unfortunately.

    15. Fuzzy Pickles*

      Well… Tumi has a few nice looking backpacks. But I guess I can’t say whether they’re professional in regard to East coast culture since I’m not a part of that. But, if it helps, a large number of people complimented the back pack I bought there.

    16. EmilyG*

      I live on the East Coast and was pretty staunchly opposed to backpacks until my back started really hurting. Then I noticed where I work, many if not most people of both genders carry backpacks, because so many of us walk to work. Will you be in a place where people commute on transit or walk? You’ll see more backpacks compared to a car-dependent place.

      Agree that leather helps it look more formal. I have one from Knomo (Beaux) that I like a lot. If the price seems too high, they seem to go on sale various places like ebags/Amazon regularly.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        I walk in to work 30 mins each way and finally upgraded to a Knomo Reykjavik I got in the sales after Christmas. Its not leather but IS waterproof, which helps, and the carry loops on top are great when I dont want to look like a school kid. Lots of great, handy storage too, especially as I have to essentially carry my work gear with me everywhere (we are in the midst of office move to Extreme Hot Desking – we dont even get stationary anymore so I have to carry my own pens, notepad, calculator kitchen utensils, snacks, and hand cream along with surface pro every day).

        I have known a number of more senior women to carry Knomo laptop bags and smaller backpacks/totes – in black they look very stylish but are more office-worker friendly than some other bags may be.

    18. Mockingjay*

      I’m on the East Coast, and I use a backpack. Mine is emblazoned with the company logo.

      I prefer a backpack to a messenger bag because the bag pulls on my shoulder and back. I can be dressed to the nines and still shrug into the straps. So much better when running through the airport!

      These days laptops and backpacks/bags are so ubiquitous I don’t think which one you use matters much, unless you are on Capitol Hill.

    19. Starbucks Girl*

      East Coast business lady here! I know a lot of people who use backpacks, but they are small, understated, and made from nice materials. My orange hiking backpack with hip straps would definitely be out of place.

      It’s hard to go wrong with a good messenger bag or tote. This is the bag that I use: https://www.kohls.com/product/prd-2899306/chaps-saddle-haven-16-inch-spinner-day-tote.jsp
      In addition to being professional this bag is also functional, with a durable fabric and enough space to fit my laptop+charger, notebook, purse, water bottle, and snacks. Also, if you still wanted to use a backpack for the travel but have this bag around just for client meetings, you could easily flatten it at the bottom of your suitcase (if you are traveling with both a carry-on and a checked bag).

      Good luck!

    20. blatantlybianca*

      West Coaster here. I use the Tumi Larkin Portola backpack which I don’t think is available anymore. Everlane has really great looking and reasonably priced backpacks.

    21. lsbc*

      If you’re OK with fabric as opposed to leather, I’m a huge fan of ebags – they have a number of laptop backpacks that can be used in backpack form for travel, then tuck the straps away and hook on the shoulder strap so it becomes a briefcase. The features/pockets/etc. are fantastic as well. They’re not dressy but are certainly professional enough for most environments.

      1. AeroEngineer*

        Yes, I have the ebag Professional Slim Laptop Backpack and I really like it for day to day professional work. It doesn’t have a lot of room for things which are not laptop or paper shaped, but you can fit a lot in it, and the profile is low and the color black. Plus, it isn’t so crazy expensive.

    23. Naptime Enthusiast*

      With your back problems I think if you go for a more square, less school backpack-type bag it should be fine. Especially if you’re petite, a regular style backpack can make you look younger and less experienced.

      Kopack is decent good brand for cheaper, their TSA-friendly bags are great for traveling.

    24. Ista*

      I am a woman working as a government contractor in the DC area and travel for work quite a bit. Because of the type of work I do, my laptop is huge (like just barely fits into a TSA bin). Is your laptop work issued? We’re you provided a backpack along with it? I use the backpack provided to me along with the laptop to lug it around both on work trips and on a daily basis. This seems to be the norm at my workplace for both men and women and at the airport especially I tend to see a lot of people with computer branded backpacks.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        My laptop is work-issued but I was not issued a bag to go with it. The laptop is not ridiculously huge but it’s about 4 years old, quite bulky for being a 14-inch laptop, and weighs 5+ pounds. It’s not a big deal for me to carry on its own but when I pile on everything else I need for travel it starts to be rough on my back if I have to carry it for long.

        I’m actually waiting on a new laptop because mine is also a total piece of junk unrelated to its size (it had REALLY low specs when it was made 4 years ago so now it’s barely usable and I have trouble doing things like running Excel and Visio at the same time) but I don’t know if it’ll be any lighter. I’m trying to convince them they should image a super lightweight laptop I have lying around but I doubt it’ll get approved. (I’m bracing for disapproval re: lending my employer my personal hardware, but I have to use this thing 8 hours a day — I’d rather use hardware I like.)

  25. FrustratedZaat*

    My work environment is driving me crazy! My supervisor is great at sending disparaging, annoying, and unproductive emails for the sole purpose of pointing out that you made a mistake, even if you didn’t make one. I’ve already spoken to her about not finding them effective and not getting the tone. They’re BAD, and it hasn’t stopped. One time, I submitted my time card but for some reason it didn’t go through, but I did it, and spoke to her about it. I get an email after I left work “reminding” me to “please submit my time card on time as she’s told me before.” It’s ludicrous. It’s not even her saying that i forgot or reminding me and it’s not a consistent problem with me. And she does this for everything. I want to quit, it’s how bad it is. The other day, she told me I couldn’t do something based on my personal tastes, WHEN I SPECIFICALLY told her it was purely based on company policy. READ your email. I dunno how to handle her, but she makes me want to leave so bad. I’m working on that part. How do I deal with her in the meantime?

    1. Tex*

      Voodoo doll with sharp pins.

      Sorry about your situation. I had a similar experience and it did not turn out well, the documentation was to cover the boss and make it seem as if I was the incompetent one. I would reply to the emails very briefly, neutral in tone, that you did respond to what she asked for in the email below which you are reattaching (copy the relevant part to your new email and change them to bold red). Basically, as annoying as it is, lay a paper trail to protect yourself.

    2. Schnoodle*

      Roll your eyes and move on. Do a good job and don’t let this get to you.

      Trust me when I say there’s much worse out there.

    3. CatCat*

      It definitely sounds like a “your boss sucks and isn’t going to change situation.” She also sounds like the kind of person with the attitude that no matter what you do, you are doing it wrong. There is just no point to arguing or pointing out reality with this type because you are wrong no matter what. The best strategy I have found for dealing with this kind of person is to engage as little as possible and don’t respond to things that don’t actually call for any sort of response.

      “You can’d do things based on personal tastes!” If in an email: ignore comment. If in person, *shrug* “Okay.” then walk away or change the topic if the conversation is not over.

    4. Jady*

      One tip I’ve learned dealing with frustrating people through email – keep your emails as short as possible. Never expect them to read more than one or two sentences.

      Anything longer than that, they will only skim it. When you start hitting paragraphs, it just won’t be read.

      It sounds strange but I’ve found it really useful.

      The only exception is if you’re sending a confirmation of a discussion, which you should also do. They don’t need to read it, they just need to have it so you have proof of your discussions.

  26. DoctorateStrange*

    I had my job interview yesterday and I hope I got it. I was thrown off a bit when a lot of the questions were scenario-based. My last interview only had two, this time around it was five or so. Is this a thing now? I’m not upset or anything, but I am curious if this is a new trend in interviewing.

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      I think they’re fairly common, but it probably depends on the interviewer.

      1. DoctorateStrange*

        True. For context, I was interviewed in a place where I already work in (I want to be in a different position) and it was different from the last time I was interviewed by them. I will definitely remember that the next time I am interviewed for something. So, I’m taking it as a learning opportunity.

    2. Blue*

      I’m not sure it’s a new trend? I think every interview I’ve ever had has been scenario-heavy, but that might just be my field.

      1. DoctorateStrange*

        I was interviewed in a place where I already work in (I want to be in a different position) and it was different from the last time I was interviewed by them. My field deals with public services, so I will definitely take this as a learning opportunity and refine my answers.

    3. Irene Adler*

      Scenario-based? Do you mean behavioral questions (“tell me about a time when you had to work with someone who was difficult to get along with” “Tell me about a time when you had a tight deadline”, Tell me about a time when you failed”, etc.)?

      If so, then yeah, these are a very common type of interview question.

      1. DoctorateStrange*

        It was that combined with “What would you do in this situation”-type questions.

    4. You don't know me*

      By the time I was done interviewing I was so tired of hearing “tell me about a time when…” If you are going to be interviewing more, you should be prepared for them.

      1. DoctorateStrange*

        Oh, absolutely. Luckily, I spent a week reviewing my work history, so when I was asked all these questions, I didn’t pause for more than three seconds.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      It’s possible your company changed their interview process since your first interview there. That happened to me – my interview with the company was a few hours with the hiring manager, and some of that time was spent with the whole team and a separate manager who I would also work with. I don’t remember any traditional interview components, like behavioral questions, it was more of a long conversation with various people coming in and out.

      A few years later I applied for an internal transfer and the interview was way more formal per the new process. A panel of six or so people (peers and managers) asking very structured questions off a standard form.

      I’ve since had some interviews over the past six months that are of the very structured format, using primarily behavioral questions rather than hypotheticals. I haven’t had to do a relevant task type component in over 10 years. It may be field as well as position dependent (I’m in tech on the research side) though. My husband’s types of interviews are mostly white boarding code problems with maybe some conversations about past experience, but he’s on the programming side.

    6. Totally Minnie*

      I think for a lot of positions, these questions are the best way to find out if a candidate will be good at the work. My industry is customer focused and there’s very little routine from day to day. The best way for me to know how a candidate will handle some of the situations I know they’d face as an employee is just to ask.

  27. McWhadden*

    I applied for a job in January using a gmail address I set-up ages ago to sound more professional than my normal one. But I pretty much never ever use it otherwise. Hadn’t heard back and figured nothing came of it. And then a week ago I got an email on that account asking to set-up an interview. I’m so glad I even bothered to check it! It had been months, I didn’t have any other job applications out, and I was expecting a call to set-up an interview. Do people not call to set-up interviews anymore?

    1. k.k*

      Varies by company, but I’ve mostly gotten emails to set up the initial interview. You can set it up so that emails from that account are forwarded to the one you use more regularly so that you don’t miss them. While signed into your professional gmail, go to your settings and click the “Forwarding and POP/IMAP” tab. Click “Add a forwarding address” and put in whatever one you use normally.

    2. Seriously?*

      I’ve only ever had e-mails. I think calls are more difficult, especially since not everyone can take personal calls when at work.

    3. bye bye ms american pie*

      I haven’t gotten calls without e-mails first in a while.

      Btw, you can set your professional gmail account to forward to your regular one, if you’d like. Gear icon -> Settings -> Forwarding. I’ve got a couple accounts that just serve to forward, including one that’s a common typo of my name.

    4. Shan*

      As an aside, you should consider forwarding your professional gmail account to your usual email address so you don’t possibly miss out on things.

    5. You don't know me*

      It varies. Most of the interviews I got were set up via them calling me but there were a couple who emailed asking me to call them to set up the time.

    7. Ashk434*

      Most employers don’t in my experience and thank goodness for that! I personally hate talking on the phone, but emailing first is just so much easier than potentially playing phone tag.

    8. Specialk9*

      You need to forward all your email. (You can find tutorials all over the Web.) An email is so much faster and reliable than a phone call, in my opinion, though of course everyone has preferences. But I’d email every time, not call.

    9. Naptime Enthusiast*

      I prefer emails when reaching out to candidates because there is a written record. If I don’t hear anything I follow up with another email and then a phone call, but emails are my first choice.

  28. Awkward white ally*

    I am white, my manager is African-American. She also happens to be a pretty bad manager, but my coworkers and I do our best and occasionally grumble about her to each other without bringing up race. About six months ago, another white person joined our team. He’s a southern good ol boy type and immediately he started saying coded/mildly racist stuff to me. I was quick to shut him down and decided it wasn’t worth reporting to HR since he’d be able to play dumb about it. He also started venting to me that he doesn’t like the way our manager delivers feedback (none of us do but it has nothing to do with race) but also thinks she nit picks him (she doesn’t, his work is awful and he’s terrible to work with). Two weeks ago they were meeting and we heard them yelling at each other. He came out of the meeting and walked out of the building, I’m assuming to cool off, and when he came back he walked up to me and said “She thinks she can treat me this way just because I’m white and she’s black.” I was completely taken aback and all I said was “I don’t think she’s like that.” I was already certain that he was racist, I am now 100% certain that his racism affects his professional relationship with our manager. So, I after sleeping on it I called HR. The (white) person I talked to said that other people had reported the yelling so they were aware. I told her what he said, both after the meeting and the earlier mildly racist stuff. She said it sounded like he was being unprofessional but not necessarily racist. I told her I disagree, but wasn’t sure what else to say. It’s been bugging me a lot.

    Yesterday he came to me and was visibly upset. He told me someone on our team had reported him to HR as a racist and our manager told HR that he’s made racially charged comments to her in the past. He’s said he’s upset because he has African American relatives so he can’t be racist. He also said “maybe I should be petty and report her to HR for being racist against me because I’m white.” All I said in reply was “reverse racism doesn’t exist” and walked away. Also, I highly doubt she said anything about being white. I’ve worked with her for years and racial stuff has never came up.

    So, I’m wondering: should I report every racist thing he says to HR, or should I drop it since HR doesn’t think he is racist enough?

    1. Ashie*

      If HR doesn’t know about all the racist stuff he does/says, how will they have enough information to know if he’s racist or not?

    2. KayEss*

      I’d start writing down things he says, the date and time, and if anyone else was present. Building up a document trail of the frequency and type of comments will allow you to present one big chunk of less-dismissable evidence, rather than calling HR weekly (daily?).

      2. mediumofballpoint*

        Seconded. As a POC, I would appreciate greatly having an ally like you in my office. Thanks for being thoughtful about this.

    3. Emi.*

      I would document it, but maybe not send every instance to HR at the time. (As a side note, though, “reverse racism” does count in a workplace discrimination sense, or would if she were actually doing it.)

      1. Seriously?*

        Documenting is a good idea. I probably wouldn’t report it again unless it goes up in intensity. They already know about the mildly racist comments so telling them more of the same will only annoy them. If he says something more overt though, it could be worth flagging it or if someone else reports him you can turn in what you have documented along with it.

        I would also say that “reverse racism” doesn’t exist but that is because racism is racism. Technically you can be racist against the majority, it just isn’t as damaging or systemic as racism against a minority.

        1. Totally Minnie*

          In this particular case, though, I don’t think the white employee is being discriminated against based on race so much as he’s experiencing the natural consequences of being a rude, racist jerk.

      2. The Ginger Ginger*

        Workplace discrimination laws prohibit discrimination based on race. Any race. Racism is the belief in the inferiority/superiority of a specific race or races; discrimination (racial discrimination) is the treatment of a race or races unfavorably – often BECAUSE OF racism. So this still isn’t reverse racism.

    4. CatCat*

      He doesn’t think it’s racist to say he thinks someone behaves a certain way because they’re black??

      And HR, OMG. My mind is boggling that HR thinks that is “not necessarily racist.”

      1. Sylvan*

        He didn’t use slurs, so it’s not “like that.”

        (I do not agree with this defense, btw!)

      2. Specialk9*

        But he has family that’s black so he can’t be racist. /s

        (Dumbass. I’m also white, I also have black family members, but of course I struggle with race bc our culture is fundamentally racist. Pretending otherwise is deliberately disingenuous.)

    5. Sylvan*

      White Southerner here, so I should be fairly close to his background.

      Report it to HR. Don’t engage with him face-to-face on the subject of race. If he brings it up, tell him to drop it/shut up/etc. If he won’t let it go, walk away from him if it’s possible.

      He’s not going to listen unless he has a compelling reason to. Compelling reasons to listen: 1. Realizing nobody likes his behavior. 2. HR.

    6. Linyarri*

      From what I’ve read here I would not bring this up to HR. It almost sounds like he is misinterpreting her actions as discrimination rather than just bad management. However not being there it is hard for me to tell. In the hopes that he is just taking this the wrong way, you might want to redirect his comments into a more probable explanation. i.e. mentioning that what he sees as discrimination may just be a crappy manager or relate experiences of other minorities with bad boss (if appropriate).

      For what it is worth I have dealt with something like this before in a much less toxic situation. My husband used to make comments about African Americans and welfare. I always responded with some variation of “I don’t think that’s a race thing, I think that is a poverty thing. After all there are plenty of white people in the same position who do the same thing”. He no longer makes comments like this and I’ve seem him use my argument against others making similar comments.

    7. Mobuy*

      I disagree on the documenting. You are not in a position of authority over him, and continually looking for evidence of his racism will just make you hypersensitive to anything he says. Definitely don’t allow him to say racist things and plan on reporting anything egregious. But do you really want to be in a position where you write down every could-be-racist thing your coworker says? That sounds miserable and also unproductive.

      1. Lara*

        Seems like a pretty productive way to get a racist off your team to me. And if he’s saying things often enough that OP would be made ‘miserable’ by documenting them, it’ll likely be a quick process.

  29. Lucie*

    We just got a new handbook update that in our new building we’re moving to that personal cell phones will be banned and we are to use our work phones for personal emergencies and anyone caught with a personal cell phone can be disciplined up until termination. It’s pretty out of norm for our industry and just really weird… (we’re a big industry and 95% salaried workers) but it’s kinda upsetting to just be given this and like. Here – please sign this now and saying you agree.

    1. SoCalHR*

      It may be that personal cell phones have become a really big problem. Or, that management thinks it may be a big problem and has updated the policy just to be safe. It also could be one of those things where they write the policy strictly but don’t enforce is so strictly until they have to. Just some thoughts from the ‘other side’ of the handbook :-)

    2. Sapphire*

      You can be prejudiced against white people, but racism depends on a societal structure based on white supremacy, so reverse racism isn’t a thing.

    3. You don't know me*

      I’ve only ever heard of that where people are working with highly sensitive information. At OldJob there was a department that was on super lock down. Everyone had a locker outside the official office and everything was put in your locker. It was also paperless. But if that is not your situation then yes, this is weird.

      At another previous job we were allowed to keep our phones with us but they were not allowed to be out on the desk and you were only allowed to use them on your official break time.

      1. Lucie*

        We’re an R&D center so the actual issue is the camera but it’s pretty industry standard that like… you need tape on them for one of our customers (The others don’t care) — but now our breakrooms and everything are in the secure area of the new building so it’s pretty annoying.

        1. tamarack and fireweed*

          This isn’t too rare in R&D. I presume personal storage devices (thumb drives, backup disks, anything that connects via USB and Bluetooth) are already banned, and all computer interfaces either disabled or strictly logged? And sometimes it’s not just an IP issue but also a compliance issue.

          So if this was a decision, I don’t think you can realistically expect they reverse it. However, if, as you seem to imply, the actual sensitive zone is only a part of the building, and especially if there are people who work all day in the non-sensitive part only, maybe there’s an opportunity for in some form banding together and submitting a request to tighten up the zone, and also to provide storage for individual devices outside it. If you have to rely on your work phone even for private emergency calls while you’re working inside the zone, but, for example, are able to check your personal device during breaks easily, there might be a compromise that reduces impact on the employees.

    4. Samiratou*

      Are there other tenants in the new building that have access to sensitive information, so it’s a condition of the lease that cell phones be banned? That’s about the only reason I can think of for a full cell phone ban, in a new building. Something about the building rules prohibit them, likely for risk of people accessing or taking pictures of some sensitive content or something like that.

      1. Lucie*

        It’s just our building and “secure areas” but everyone other then admin is in the “secure area” including the bathrooms and break “room” on an open office plan.

    5. Annie Moose*

      Wait, can you not even have personal cell phones in the building? What, you have to leave them in your car or something?? That seems pretty extreme!

      1. NacSacJack*

        Not really. I have a relative who worked for a civilian contractor for the military after she retired. They banned personal cell phones in the building and she did have to leave hers in her car. She complained her kids and husband would forget and text her personal cell phone instead of calling her office phone when they needed to communicate.

        It’s too easy to slip your phone out, take a snapshot of sensitive data, and tuck it back in your pocket quickly, even in an open plan office.

        1. Beatrice*

          Yep, I went to a couple of interviews like that for a DoD contractor, once upon a time. In the first interview, the receptionist took my phone and locked it away when I arrived. The second time, I knew what to expect and left my phone in my car.

    6. Friday*

      That’s so weird. Is there a bigwig at your company who grumbles about “OMG THEEZ MILLENNIALS PLAYING ON THEIR PHONES” when you’re actually returning work email, texting daycare, etc. etc.

  30. Red Psycho*

    Hello, I am hoping someone can give me some advice on how to determine a career path.

    I am a 22 year old woman. I have very minimal college education and no degree due to personal/financial reasons.

    I currently work in a manufacturing wharehouse, and I am extremely unhappy with my job. The work itself does not bother me, but it is an extremely toxic environment, and the schedule is not what I was told it would be.

    I have been job searching and looking towards going back to school. This is where my trouble comes in. I am unsure of what kind of jobs to look for and what sort of education I want. I am currently looking for work in the same field I am currently working in, as I feel it is the only field in which I have enough experience to get a full time job, and I have no issue continuing in this industry while I further educate myself.

    But I can’t figure out what to study. This is part of the reason I never finished college. I could never find something I’m passionate enough about to invest the time and money it would take to get a degree.

    I read Allison’s very early article about figuring out what you can’t not do and finding a job that requires those skills. (Here is a link for those confused as to what I’m talking about: https://www.askamanager.org/2007/08/steve-at-all-things-workplace-makes.html ). However, I can’t seem to think of any skills or things that I can’t keep myself from doing.

    Tl/Dr I am trying to determine a career path, but I cannot figure out anything I am passionate enough about or excel at enough to persue as a long term career. Can anyone give me advice or tatics that I may not have thought about?

    I would also like to ask if anyone has any strategies for job hunting in a small town. What sort of jobs are out there that might not require a degree (besides the obvious customer service, wharehouse, etc. type jobs)?

    1. LibraryRaptor*

      I really liked the book Designing Your Life. It gave me some great exercises to do to figure out what I wanted to get out of work, what kinds of things I truly enjoyed doing, and brainstorming ways to move forward.

    2. Administrator excellante*

      What about looking at a job board focused on your town and seeing what jobs people are hiring for? You might see something that looks interesting and you can take it from there. I would focus on the types of jobs that there are multiple listings for. As Alison has said, not all jobs are going to fulfill a passion, some are just jobs, so maybe you should instead focus on finding a job you can do for a long time, that pays well and is always hiring (nursing for instance).

    3. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      Have you considered trade school versus traditional college? Trade schools cost a lot less and there are lots of opportunities in the trades. Of course, if you want a four-year traditional degree, go for it! I don’t have much advice as far as figuring out what you want to study, because my main priority was to get a degree as fast as possible and get into a an entry level position where the requirement is just to have any bachelor’s degree (I work for the US Government). For me, I have a tolerable job, where I make money to pursue things I enjoy outside of work.

      Sorry if this was ramble-y and unhelpful! I hope you get better advice from everyone else, but the important thing is that you are figuring things out and the AAM community is a good place to look!

    4. grace*

      Can you try temping in different offices? My first thought was going towards dental hygiene or something similar, but that requires an AA degree — if you work in an office first to get a feel for what they do and how you feel about it, maybe you could head towards something there.

      Or take some online quizzes to see what you might be good at – maybe something will strike a chord. After you do that, I’d recommend asking if you can do an informational interview with people in various careers that sound like a good fit to you, and asking what they might recommend.

    5. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Well, I keep hearing that the trades are desperate for workers, and in general there are places that are desperate for workers. Would you be interested in electrical, plumbing, construction, etc? I’ve been told that you can get paid apprenticeships. Would you be willing to relocate to somewhere that has a labor shortage?

    6. OtterB*

      If you like the work in the warehouse though not the current environment, you might look at a degree in business perhaps specializing in logistics or something like that. A business degree would give you some flexibility for jobs with small businesses.

      If you expect to stay in the same small town, I agree with the suggestion to look at the types of jobs that are being posted, see what you think might appeal to you, and what the qualifications would be.

      Is there a community college? Sometimes they are well connected with what local employers want.

      If you’re reasonably comfortable with math, there are manufacturing technology jobs that employers can find hard to fill but that work on technical education or apprenticeship rather than a degree.

    7. Natalie*

      It might help to think of it as chosing something you’ll like more than what you’re doing now, rather than trying to pick the perfect career for the whole rest of your life. If you do nothing, you stay in warehouses or retail or whatever, if you pick something, you get to do something more interesting than that.

    8. Sunshine Brite*

      Correctional officer? It takes strong boundaries and sense of self. There’s a chance of traumatization similar to first responders or police but tends to be stable work with minimal education requirements.
      Home health, childcare/paraprofessional.

      As far as a career path, consider areas of interest and try to figure out from there. If there are limited resources in your town, are there other or bigger towns within a reasonable commute? Is there anything that peaks your interest more than others?

    9. You don't know me*

      I’ve only ever heard of that where people are working with highly sensitive information. At OldJob there was a department that was on super lock down. Everyone had a locker outside the official office and everything was put in your locker. It was also paperless. But if that is not your situation then yes, this is weird.

      At another previous job we were allowed to keep our phones with us but they were not allowed to be out on the desk and you were only allowed to use them on your official break time.

      1. You don't know me*

        That posted to the wrong person! Here is yours:
        When job searching be open to anything (with reason of course). When I was a teenager I applied to be a cashier at a supermarket. They called and said they weren’t hiring cashiers but did I want to work in the bakery. When I was going to school to be a teacher I got offered a job in a daycare working with 2 year olds. Not exactly what I was looking for but I took it. During my most recent job search I was looking for accounting positions. Again, I got called for an interview and was told it was for payroll, not accounting and would I be interested?

    10. HR Girl*

      This was my problem as well. Tried out two different majors before settling on HR. I took a lot of those free online quizzes to see what career your personality/skills would work best in and HR was in my top 5 every time. I researched the field and met with a career counselor at the local technical college. From there I sort of bounced the idea off of friends and family to see if they could see me in HR. I went back to the tech college and I applied for their Human Resource Management program. I earned my associate degree and took some temp HR jobs just to gain some experience and now a about a year from earning my degree I have a stable (non-temp) job as an HR Assistant! I’m 23 right now but when I was 22 I felt so behind because all of my friends were graduating with bachelor’s degrees when they were 22 and I hadn’t even completed my associate degree. It can be hard but I would start with those quizzes because I have no idea where I would be if I hadn’t taken them.

    11. Lily Rowan*

      On the question of what to study, for most general office-type jobs, the degree is more a credential than anything else, so all you need is to be able to check the box that says you have it. So in that case, I wouldn’t worry so much about what you’re studying.

      And I feel like most people I know didn’t know what long-term career they would be in until they started working. It might take a few tries to get there! But if you can get the entry-level job, then you see what the career might look like. Like, I bet the customer service, warehouse type places in your area have HR departments. The HR department probably has an entry-level position that might require a degree, but no specific experience. If you can get that job, you can see if HR is for you, and also get a look into the management of the actual work.

      I don’t know if any of this is helpful, but good luck to you!

    12. Red Psycho*

      Thank you to everyone’s advice! I have considered some trades. The nature of my job is that I often have to fix minor problems on the machine I operate and, to my great surprise, this is one of the aspects of my job that I enjoy the most. It seems I have discovered that I enjoy figuring out the solution to a problem and fixing it. I believe this is true both when working with my hands and my head.

      I have also always been a fairly creative person. I love creative writing, photography, etc.

      Some of the things I have been thinking over involve mechanical/electrical work, graphic design, and software engineering.

      I do admit, I don’t know much about these fields so if anyone has any insight, I’m happy to listen

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        If you like working with fancy equipment and solving problems, I would recommend looking into analytical chemistry. There are certificate and associates programs you can complete in a year to see if you like the field.

      2. Free Meerkats*

        Don’t go for a four year degree unless you need one in your chosen profession – not a popular opinion these days, but IMO, it’s true. You can easily run up 6 figures debt getting your degree in Western Asian Rattan-based Guanaco Pack Saddle Weaving, but you’ll never find a job doing that.

        You enjoy working on the machines and problem solving. How about CNC machinist? Or Tool & Die making? Entry level apprentice or trade school requirements are usually HS or GED and a reasonable math ability. You’ll work with both your hands and your head.

        1. Natalie*

          Although it’s also worth noting that some trade schools are also extremely expensive, while plenty of private colleges give away a lot of aid and could be cheaper. Definitley look at what your specific cost of attendance will be rather than assuming the state school will be cheap or whatever.

          All of that said, you might also look at building trades (electrical, plumbing etc) which can frequently be accessed through a paid apprenticeship program. Particularly if you’re unionized, they frequently have great benefits as well. Women are still less common in the trades, but not unknown, and there may be programs available to you as they are needing to diversify these days.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        There are real pitfalls to making a passion your work, especially in creative fields. Those tend to be more gig-based than steady jobs, and you get no benefits such as health insurance. Entry-level work is often absurdly low-paid. It smacks of inherent privilege for people to say “do what you love” in those instances, because unless you have a trust fund or a well-off spouse, most people can’t afford to take a year off to write a novel, for example.

        If you know what you’re good at and what you like, that’s half the battle. I’m kinda jealous of people who can do things like mechanical or electrical engineering. You can make good money doing that. If you enjoy the work and you can make a living at it, that’s fantastic.

      4. J.B.*

        Trade school or community college. If you like this sort of problem solving, I would recommend trying some entry level computer science courses. You can look into networking, helpdesk type stuff, data science, or supply chain – my local community college has pathways for all 3.

      5. Specialk9*

        There’s a book called Shop Class As Soul Craft that makes a good argument that the trades are a better long term bet than white collar work, and require more smarts. It turned my ideas about the world on their head.

    13. Eye of Sauron*

      The first advice I’m going to give is to forget about passion for your career/job. It’s overrated, start for interesting and pays the bills :) After you get to a better than where you are place you can focus on passion.

      So, as far as careers in your field, maybe look at manufacturing scheduling, technical setup, logistics, procurement/supply chain, order/account management, quality. These are the closest careers (I think) to where you probably are now. Some of them you can get your foot in the door without a degree or with an associates.

      Another thought outside your current area would be to look for something like an admin or office manager or insurance agency. Both could open the door up to different possibilities and once again pay the bills while you go to school and/or figure out where you want land.

      The last thing is, if you are generally happy with the warehouse/manufacturing work, try to find another job that doesn’t have the same issues/environment as you have now. Not sure if that’s possible in your area, but sometimes the people can make or break the job.

      1. Red Psycho*

        Thanks for the advice! “Interesting but pays the bills” is pretty much where I am now. I could stand to make a bit more money I suppose, but I am looking into other similar jobs in my area, as you suggested, and hoping to find one with slightly better pay.

        However, for the most part, I am making enough, but I feel stagnant, and I want something more. That is why I am looking at going back to school and trying to figure out what would be a good fit.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Taking the path of least resistance, why not check the job openings at your own company. Since you are familiar with the production side, you might be a handy person to have in another department. They may be willing to slide you over if it means they can keep you. Pick something that you know is within your skill set you know that you usually figure out A or B comes easy for you.

    14. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Chiming in as a fellow small town-er: the main jobs here are warehouse work, medical-related, truck driving, working at the casino(s), or trades. I have a masters’ degree, but if I’d known I was going to end up living in a small town, I would have skipped that altogether. There really is very little to do out here that requires a bachelors’ or higher. I’d suggest focusing on trade school or community college. We have a Honda plant in our area, and as a result our community college system has really gotten behind manufacturing technology, and speaking as someone who hires for a manufacturing plant, I really really can’t wait until those folks graduate. I know you’re not too interested in working in a warehouse, but I think that if you can get some additional training (technology, logistics, etc.) you would be able to move into a higher level position, which is better pay & way better job security.

      I hate to be a downer, but if you’re committed to staying put, I’d start with what jobs are available and work back from there, as opposed to pursuing something your passionate about. I absolutely love where I live and wouldn’t trade it for anything, but I’ve had to recalibrate my expectations for what makes a good job and find my passion elsewhere.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Figure out what you are naturally good at and put yourself somewhere you stand a good chance of doing well.

    15. LabTech*

      Having just gotten out of the educational life after 11 years (with a Bachelors degree, FINALLY), I can tell you that community colleges and trade schools are where it’s at right now. I got a 2 year associates of general science, went on to try to break into Biotech at a university (it was.. not a great fit) in several different programs and got caught up in the inter-state credit transfer hole, as well as in a bunch of educational debt. I finally ended up in a 2 year program for my field and started working right away.

      My field: I currently work in medical laboratory science, and I’d never even heard of it before. It’s a specialty field that you can get into in just 2 years at a community college (MLT), and you can continue on and finish your Bachelors if you choose (formerly known as MT, now MLS), if you have management aspirations or want to further your education. Depending on your state, you may or may not need licensure afterwards, but there is a national certification exam at the end. And depending on where you live, you start out making fairly decent money. The field is hurting for techs, and there are more retirees than there are graduates coming out of the college programs these days. You won’t ever get the glory or money of nursing, since you’re not public-facing, but you can do some amazing work behind the scenes. You can work in a hospital, a physician office lab, a blood bank (American Red Cross, for example), in forensics, and even in research, where I currently am. There is a wealth of possibilities.

      There’s a lot of other tech school/community college programs, too, but that’s been my experience in this particular industry, and I highly encourage anyone that might be even mildly interested to give it a look. These days, it seems to be a lot less about doing what you love, and a lot more about doing what you find tolerable and that pays the bills. I got very lucky in doing something I discovered that I love. Maybe you will, too.

    16. Red Psycho*

      Thanks once again for all the helpful advice! I love this community and how supportive it is! I am going to reread through these comments and give them much consideration. I believe I am going to continue to consider either a degree in some kind of computer based field or a trade as some sort of mechanic.

      I still have a little ways to go before I will be financially ready to further my education so for now I am going to continue my job search and think all these things over as I try to gain experience and skills where I can.

      Anymore advice, is still appreciated!

      1. ScoutFinch*

        Check with your local or state employment agency. Here, we have something called WIN – Workforce Investment N….something. Basically, you take 6 weeks of classes on all aspects of working. Working on a team, problem solving, conflict resolution..all kinds of stuff. Representatives from manufacturers that CANNOT GET ENOUGH qualified workers sit in on some classes. At the end of the six weeks, students are picked by the manufacturers and trained to whatever the factory needs. Industrial maintenance is an area that would fit your skills well. Someone has to maintain all this high tech machinery (which is most all computer driven these days).

        Good luck!

    17. Brooklyn99wasCancelled*

      If you are looking to building on your current job experience — it is possible to get a degree/certification in Procurement, in Materials Management, Warehouse Management, not to mention Manufacturing or Quality Assurance.

      It is fine to want to be passionate about your career. But there are very few jobs that fall into the passion category (does any one dream of being a Contracting Specialist II, or find their joy in life is Insurance?)

      If you can’t find a passion, then look for something that plays to your strengths – if you are paid well enough, you can use the money to fund a passionate hobby, or passionate travel. Go to your local college (you do not have to be a student) and see if you can speak with a counselor regarding areas of study. Go to the library and research up and coming jobs.

      Do you like working within systems (grouping things together, creating order, working within a set of standards/rules); do you want your work to have a human element (helping people with problems, providing education, improving peoples conditions); do you prefer to work in groups (collaborative work) or do you prefer to work alone (coding will allow for either). Do you want to work for a company or for yourself? Do you want to specialize in a field (plumber) or do you want a degree something that can be used in various fields (project management)?

    18. Specialk9*

      I don’t think people *should* study based on passion, but on practicality. What’s a career you like well enough, that has lots of jobs in lots of places, that pay well?

      Right now, you’re in a warehouse, and that’s tough work and ripe for abuse. I’d suggest you focus on office skills rather than college – typing, using Microsoft Word and a little Excel. Go for temp office jobs — learn about different careers, ask for extra work and then *check* that you did it right 3-4 times before you turn it in. (I’m a manager – giving someone a boring small task is one way I figure out if I can trust them with something bigger.)

      Pursue certifications. General ones like Microsoft, or a tool that your office uses that’s common.

      Cybersecurity is a hot field now, and they often need people to work in the ops centers. (This requires you to work for a bigger corp.) If your company has a cybersecurity team, tell your manager that you’re interested in getting cybersecurity training and see if work will pay for it. (I know some guys who took an intensive course and came out making nearly $100k, though in a big city.)

    19. I'm FIFTY!*

      I’m in a small town, and understand the challenges you’re facing. 2 suggestions:
      1. I would strongly encourage you to reach out to your local community college. They will have resources around identifying your skills and interests and matching them with careers – and can help you match these to their educational options – whether that’s career and technical training (accounting, business admin, welding, machinist, etc.) or a more traditional associates degree and transfer option.
      2. The college will also have a career center – or can connect with the local public agency for support in job hunting. Local agencies (Work Source is the name here in Oregon) know the local job market and the major employers.
      Good Luck!

    20. krysb*

      I was in the exact same spot when I was 22. With luck and a lot of hard work, I fell up into my job at an e-discovery organization. Then, using my interests in improving my department and creating and enacting plans and learning new skills, I moved up. Now, at 33, I am finally finishing my business degree and will be moving further into management and business development. It’s been a slow, hard process. At times I worked 90 hour weeks between three jobs. My 20s were the absolute WORST. I have no real tips for you, but I wish you the best of luck!

    21. Student*

      You aren’t passionate about manufacturing warehouse work, either. So, why do you need to be passionate about your career? Find your passion in your hobbies or other non-work pursuits if there are no careers you are passionate about. Lots of other people do this; most people aren’t passionate about their jobs. They want some mix of enough money to pay for their needs, more money to pay for their wants, an acceptable work schedule, an acceptable work location, and some preferred level of work stress. So, look for that instead when you pick your field of study.

      So, figure out:
      (1) What core skills you already have. Are you good at math? Writing? Computers? Persuading people? A good memory? Something else? Any core skill you are already good at can help narrow you down from “all of the things humans have invented a degree for” to “things I’m already kind of good at so I won’t be instantly frustrated by”.
      (2) Figure out your personal balance of job-restricting issues – work location, money needs, work stress you’ll put up with. Some of us are happy to risk our lives regularly to get paid big bucks. Some of us really want to live by Aunt Gertrude so we can visit regularly. Some of us really want a job that pays a living wage but leaves us with personal time and little work stress. And so on.
      (2a) Once you’ve got that worked out, look for inspiration on fields that meet your specifications. If you want the big bucks, then look at fields with high pay that rely on stuff you are good at. If you want to live near Aunt Gertrude, look at the companies in Aunt Gertrude’s areas for specific ideas, and also look at careers that are needed everywhere – medical field, general business needs like accountants and supply management, programming, etc. If you want a job that pays a decent wage but gives you little stress, look at how many hours different jobs take up on average, look at pay scales, rule out fields known to be stressful or have long hours (nursing, cop, etc.).
      (3) Narrow it down further to fields you’re willing to commit to. If you’re still on the fence, then don’t chase after a field that requires a very long time in school (like medical or a grad degree or law). Instead, pick something where you’ll get useful skills no matter what, and where you can be a bit flexible in how you apply them.
      (4) Still struggling to choose? As a famous bug once sang, “Always let your conscience be your guide!” If you can’t do something you’re passionate about, then at least do something that you will always grudgingly admit makes the world better, even when the homework is too long, the boss sucks, and you haven’t had a pay raise lately. Public service? Fire fighter? Some non-profit field? Research? Medicine? Law? There’s a million options from garbage collection on up to Senator, and some of them you don’t need to go back to school to pursue.

      1. Anna Held*

        A liberal arts degree isn’t about finding your Own True Path. It’s not even about finding a job! That’s bs put out by marketing people. It’s to make you a better educated, well-rounded citizen, and that happens to include career paths.

        Most people change careers multiple times, and almost no one winds up doing what they majored in forever. You’re not stuck with something. Pick something general you have some interest in — you mentioned creative writing — and maybe balance it with a “practical” minor like business administration or accounting. Or vice versa!

        If you go back to school, try to focus on what you’re getting out of each class, not just “I have to get through this to get a job”. Most classes have some feature you’ll love — an idea you never would have thought of, a book you never would have read, a friend you never would have made. Work on core skills like writing and critical thinking — that’s what college is really about, and they’ll stand you in good stead in whatever field you choose. You should pick up job-related stuff like how to give a presentation or good references, too. And don’t worry that you don’t love a field! You don’t even know the half of what’s out there. That’s what college is for — to explore new areas of study you never would have imagined delving in to. Biology one minute, art history the next! You’ll discover things you never dreamed of that you love, or you’ll cross a few things off (also useful knowledge).

        I agree that community college or other low-cost options are your best bet. If online classes work for you, they’re a good way to fit classes in. Don’t go into a ton of debt just for a degree. And even if you really don’t college or your subjects, learning to suck it up and do well anyway is a huge skill in and of itself. You’ll still have the degree at the end of the day, which does still help you get a good job, though it’s not the guarantee it used to be. (But really, don’t pile on the debt for that. And there’s no shame in saying “nope” and choosing a different path, but picking up an AA on the way is nice.)

        You never know where you’ll wind up, what you’ll find useful, or what you’ll be interested in 10, 20, 40 years from now. You don’t need to decide now! That’s what college — and the rest of your life — is for.

    22. Quinoa*

      I haven’t seen anyone else saying this yet, so I’ll chime in. There are currently 500,000 jobs in the computer science field that are going unfilled. And we desperately need people to fill them. Since you’re considering tech and software, know that there is a lot of opportunity out there. Plus, it’s a good field to be in if you love solving problems.

      I did my most recent certification program entirely online, and more and more colleges and universities are competing for online students, so you might be able to get a degree remotely (just make sure it’s from an accredited institution).

      But as some other commenters have suggested, try the online job assessment quizzes to get a better idea of where to look. I am acutally in my New! And! Awesome! Job! as a direct result of taking the Pymetrics test (link in my username). I’d never heard of the field I am now in before learning about it a little over a year ago in my test results.

      Best of luck to you as you figure out your new direction!

    23. Lara*

      Career sites often have quizzes that can help you get a rough idea of what you might be interested in. Also I don’t know if it’s a thing in America but in the U.K. they’ve been reviving apprenticeships. They’re in everything from IT to painting and decorating to plumbing. You earn a (low) wage awhile you work, and typically go to college once a week or in the evening. They can be really good, and often result in a perm job if you have aptitude. They also give you a chance to evaluate the work and environment without the financial commitment of school.

  31. Forking Great Username*

    I was just asked to do a long term substitute teacher job for the rest of the year! It’s at the school where I did my student teaching, so I’m very excited and hoping this leads to a job offer at the end of the year.

    However, I am finding myself trying to say yes to everything in an effort to impress people here as much as possible, and I need to cut that out a bit. I’m proctoring AP exams here today and was hoping to leave right when they’re over – son’s birthday party tonight and we leave on vacation tomorrow. But they asked me to cover another class for the last two hours of the day. I’m not sure the secretary realizes that means I’m skipping lunch (on top of that, I haven’t been able to use the restroom all day. Ugh. They’re usually great but testing got complicated this year since many staff members have kids taking AP tests, so not only can those people not proctor the exam, they can’t even come in the room to cover breaks and sich. Blah. I’m sick of staring at these kids for hours, haha.)

    1. Specialk9*

      Good luck! Remember that saying yes to everything can backfire, and lead to people taking advantage of you without even winning loyalty points. Your kid is important too. Good luck balancing all of those things.

    2. Evil HR Person*

      All you had to say in this particular instance was, “I’m so sorry! I can’t because it’s my son’s birthday party tonight and I have to leave at X-time so I can get everything ready. I can totally fill in for you any other Friday, though – but remember I’m off on vacation next Friday.” That was it. I’ve learned to say no the hard way, and I love to be able to say yes – but I’ve spread myself too thin before and ended up paying for it in anxiety. Not worth it.

    3. Julianne (also a teacher)*

      It’s hard, but learn to say no when requests are unreasonable! I like to keep Alison’s advice about assuming the requester is open to sound reasoning and just needs the reason pointed out, as in “I’m able to proctor AP exams on Wednesday, but of course I’ll need my lunch break. I could take it during first or second lunch, which option makes the most sense for the schedule?”

      You are not jeopardizing your career when you decline unreasonable requests that would overextend you; you’re avoiding burnout. Repeat this mantra to yourself.

  32. culturalnonprofitstruggles*

    Hi all! I’m reapplying for a job that I interviewed for last august. Then, I was still living 8 hours from this city, and framed my application as “I’m going to be moving here soon to join my partner.” They flew me out for the interview, which is a big deal in my niche field of cultural nonprofits. Ultimately, they went with a different, internal candidate. The same job has just been reposted and I’d love to reapply. This is a very small office and I’m not sure if and how in my cover letter to address why I’m reapplying, because I’m not 100% why I didn’t land the job previously. Any suggestions?

    1. Lady By The Lake*

      Apply! You didn’t get the job previously because they had a good internal candidate. Go for it.

    2. Chloe*

      Apply! and when it comes to your cover letter I would say be honest about having applied to the non-profit in the past. Tell them all the things that made you interested then and now in the position and company. Hopefully your enthusiasm for them will lead to a great interview.

    3. OtterB*

      I’d say in your cover letter that you very much enjoyed meeting them last summer, have now relocated, and continue to be interested in working with the organization. Acknowledge that you’re applying again, but don’t dwell on it because it’s not weird to reapply.

  33. TV Researcher*

    Me again… your friendly neighborhood TV Researcher.

    Not much has changed at work, in that I still have fears I’m being sidelined, though I did come up with a summer project that, if done well, should make me less fearful that I’m going to lose my job.

    When last I posted, I mentioned that my quarterly scans were coming up and I’m ecstatic to say that my scans were clean, and I can officially say that I’ve been in NED-land (No Evidence of Disease) for a year! (My oncologist doesn’t use the term cancer-free. So, now I have three months to not worry about this mishegas.

    And a trip to Italy to look forward to.

      1. TV Researcher*

        I’ll be spending 3 days in Venice, 3 days in Florence (though one of those days will be on a tour of Tuscanny, as I really want to see the Leaning Tower of Pisa and there are a couple of other towns/vineyards we’ll be visiting over one really long day) and then meeting a friend for 5 days in Rome.

        I haven’t had a real vacation in well over a year and a half (I don’t count my 5 weeks of disability as a vacation, though I think my co-workers sometimes did), so I’m very much looking forward to eating too much in Italy and getting lost as I wander.

        1. Jemima Bond*

          That sounds wonderful – I have been to Tuscany and it is so so beautiful. It’s definitely worth seeing the leaning tower of Pisa but plan something else that day as well because there is sod all else in Pisa ;-) Siena is gorgeous, also Volterra. And Florence!
          Rome is apparently (I’ve not been myself but I really want to) rather bad for pickpockets and dippers so as my mum would say, keep your hand on your ha’penny!

          1. Specialk9*

            I feel the same way about Venice. One must go, it’s amazing, but a day is ideal.
            Rome though… Years of wandering and it still would have awesome little nooks. And the gelato.

          2. Linda Evangelista*

            I LOVE Siena more than anything. Check out Arezzo if you can! I also hold Montecatini in a special place in my heart.

          3. Catherine from Canada*

            Meh, I wouldn’t say that Rome is any worse than anywhere else for pickpockets and hustlers. There may be more of them, but there are more tourists there than anywhere else too! so of course that’s where they go!
            Heading for Italy myself on Tuesday. You will look like a tourist (we just can’t do their style! I asked my daughter in law _How_ do Italian women walk on cobblestones in stilettos!? She said, we start practicing at 12…) but try not to act like a tourist. Walk like you know where you’re going. Keep your important stuff in zippered inside pockets. Don’t make eye contact with anyone you don’t want to talk to. And you’ll be fine!

            1. TV Researcher*

              Thanks. That’s pretty much how I get around NYC.

              And, I dress so casually most days that I don’t think I could pull off Italian style, even if I tried. So, I’ve resigned myself to looking like a tourist.

              And I think a stop at Siena is part of the Tuscanny tour, so I’m looking forward to that.

              1. Specialk9*

                A pair of cigarette pants, like Old Navy Pixie, black pants, or nice jeans, and anything in your feet that’s not sneakers should be fine!

  34. Overeducated*

    Been here two months and I’m already nervous about pushing the envelope on telework/time off – I told my partner that in the first few months of the new job, I would need him to carry the load for childcare/illness issues while I established myself as reliable, but we’ve already had 3 days where someone’s needed to stay home and I’ve had to cover 2 of them, even though partner is working very part time while job searching right now. This isn’t due to unwillingness, it’s because these things only seem to happen when there is some very important, incompatible commitment on his end like an out of town job interview. The longer term staff at my job seem to enjoy a lot of flexibility around telework and family issues, and I’ll definitely get all my work done and complete my scheduled hours due to staying late a couple days and working while kid sleeps off the virus today, but I’m still worried about how it looks.

    Can any other parents/family caretakers commiserate? Or offer stories of similar situations where it hasn’t hurt them professionally?

    1. Seriously?*

      If your work is getting done and you have only taken off two days then I don’t think it should cause any perception issues. Unless someone has said something I wouldn’t worry about it.

        1. Eye of Sauron*

          2 days in the first 2 months is kind of a lot, BUT it isn’t necessarily going to be detrimental. If I were your manager I’d be starting to notice, but wouldn’t be acting at this point. I think the biggest thing is communication and commitment to minimizing impact, which it sounds like you are doing.

          1. Overeducated*

            My manager has actually been on leave both days, said he really didn’t mind the first time, and maybe 25% of the office is there on any given Monday or Friday due to regular telework…but my manager has also been there almost 20 years to my 2 months, and the other staff who all telework weekly have been there at least a year. So I don’t just assume it’s OK.

            To minimize impact, I am not taking full days of leave, I’m getting as much work from home done as possible (between last night, waking up at the crack of dawn this morning, and working when my kid slept and watched TV it has already been 8 hours today), but I know that showing up and being there at work is also an important part of the job. But we moved here for work, don’t have a deep local support system, and can’t afford for my husband to skip the only job interview he’s had this month, so I’m really at a loss for what I can do to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

            1. Eye of Sauron*

              You’re probably doing as much as you can and I’m sure they are seeing that. I didn’t make my comment to make you feel bad (I’m sorry if I did), instead wanted to give you my perspective as a manager.

              I get it (as do most managers) life isn’t perfect. That’s why managers look for trends and reactions, based on what you’ve said it doesn’t sound like this should be a big impact long term.

              1. Overeducated*

                You didn’t make me feel bad. I know how it looks and I appreciate your perspective.

    2. Schnoodle*

      The worst is when daycare randomly closes. We have family we can usually scramble someoen who’s somewhat willing to keep the creature alive, but it’s rough.

      I started a new job so didn’t want o take time off; like you I put it on DH who has an inflexible full time job. Thankfully he was able to manage 2 things that needed done. Then we had his brother handle another one, his aunt yet another (though I had to pick him up from daycare and meet her at my house), and one is coming up. It’s after my first 90 days and boss seems okay with it.

      I think if you establish good work, good communication, and you absolutely get back as soon as you can, you’ll be fine.

      1. Overeducated*

        The first day it happened last month, day care did randomly close about 2 hours after opening. Unfortunately we don’t have family close enough to call unless we have enough advance warning to beg my parents to drive several hours (which we have done twice in the last three years); last month we were desperate enough to call the only neighbor we know who is a stay at home parent, but they had a doctor’s appointment and couldn’t help. This time kid is legit sick so I wouldn’t ask and expose their kids. It just feels like bad luck, there are very very few days when my husband actually can’t do it and we’ve somehow managed to hit two.

        1. A Non E. Mouse*

          I enjoy some flexibility with my schedule, at an employer in an industry that doesn’t usually allow that kind of thing. I also have a hard stop time due to Kid Things most days of the week (I come in early to augment that, but most people aren’t here yet so just see the “early out”).

          Here’s what I do to make sure that I “earn” the goodwill needed to maintain the flexibility:

          1) When I don’t need to leave at that certain time and there are things pending, I stay and work the problem.

          2) I answer email before/after hours. This is actually something people mention as helpful – my ability to help them at 8pm (which takes, like, 3 seconds but makes a HUGE impression).

          3) If there’s weekend or after hours work needed on site, and there’s nothing pending in our personal lives, I *volunteer* to cover that need. Most people will gladly let you out at 3pm on a Tuesday in exchange for not having to come in Saturday.

          4) When I am at work, I’m engaged. I’m the first to reply, the first to pop over to someone’s desk if they send an SOS for something I can help with. Face time does matter, and this helps establish that I was there and helpful Tuesday, even if they couldn’t find me at 4:45pm Wednesday.

          5) My work is polished to a shine before it goes out. If what you produce is well-honed, it kind of puts extra cache into the bank with your coworkers and bosses.

          So then when I’m out of the office for a sick kid or a Sports Thing or whatever, they absolutely KNOW I will get back to them with finished, polished work when I return.

          So if you are feeling a little uncertain, I would just try to make sure that while are you there you are ON. The rest really should fall into place, especially at an employer that already offers flexibility.

          1. Overeducated*

            Thanks. I’ll keep on doing my best at those. I actually am working an all day event tomorrow after my boss was asked but said no due to family obligations so…hopefully that counts. Couldn’t just substitute it for my regular Friday because of prep and deadlines today though.

    3. A Person*

      I had to take more than two days off in my first two months in one job because in my life everything tends to happens all at once, and it didn’t hurt me. I was there four years.

      This was in an environment where management cared more about results than watching a clock and where my colleagues took time off for similar reasons. In a different workplace it might have been seen negatively but not in that one.

      It really depends on what’s normal for your workplace. If other people do it too, I wouldn’t worry about it.

      1. Overeducated*

        Yeah, some people in my workplace have been going through some much much worse and more extended stuff than this, and management has generally been very generous and accommodating of that. But that also makes it important that those of us without that really heavy stuff pick up the slack and help keep the place running right now…also, my kid was sick SO MUCH last winter (like at least on a monthly basis) that I wanted to stockpile leave and goodwill while the weather is good, not be someone who “always” has something!

    4. Specialk9*

      So can relate! It stinks, especially since kids get sick a lot – they have to, they’re building an immune system – but that means you need to stay home a lot. It does get better, and you’re not the only one in this boat.

    5. Hamburke*

      Same thing happened to me – I started a new job in September. My kids are older so don’t actually need anyone home with them but 2 of them got the flu this fall and were really sick. My husband is 100% remote with 10% travel. Wanna bet when the kids got sick? My boss was super understanding as I stayed home with them.

  35. Anon Anon*

    Are there any writers who work a full-time day job who have tips on how to fit in writing into the day? I’m frustrated because I’m always so exhausted after getting home from work and lack the energy to make much progress in my creative pursuits. My dream is to eventually work part time and write and publish a couple books a year. I have several full-time writer friends and it’s hard not to be envious/jealous of them.

    1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      I feel you – it can be really hard to find the mental energy to write when you have a demanding day job. I’ve managed to write three books (2 novels and a novella) and a short story, but that was over 8 years. I have writing friends who could easily crank that out in a year or two, but there’s only 24 hours in the day and personally I need a good balance of work, family and relaxation or I ‘m miserable.

      One of my friends who works full time but puts out an average of 4 books a year told me that the key to her productivity was giving up TV completely and hiring others to do all of her housecleaning and yard work. Her book sales now far and away pay for the outsourcing, so that’s one way to go if you can afford it upfront.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      I do almost all of my writing on weekends, not after work. I just don’t have good energy after a long day in the office, staring at a computer. When I *have* to work on weeknights, I try to do something on paper (hardcopy) so I’m not spending more time staring at screens – maybe draft some stuff longhand, or print and edit a chapter in pen. I’ve heard many people say they wake up early to write before work, which makes sense, but I’m a zombie in the mornings and it really didn’t work for me.

    3. SoSo*

      I write on my lunch breaks and have set aside time on two evenings when I know I’m completely free/have the house to myself. I also use my commute to brainstorm and work through plot problems and I have used voice memos in the past while I’m driving to record short bits that are easy to copy down later. I’m in the same boat as you though- when I get home, I don’t want to do anything mentally. Although writing is fun for me, it’s not relaxing and I can’t stand to have my mind going for 18 hours a day or else I’ll turn into a total monster. I have another writer friend who has written three books in the last year while juggling work and a full time grad program, but I think it comes down to personality.

    4. Susan Sto Helit*

      Set yourself a goal, and stick to it – even if that’s just writing 100 words/1 handwritten page a day (I think it was Philip Pullman once gave an interview where he said he hand-writes three pages a day, and always makes sure to end the sentence on the next page over so you never start off looking at a blank piece of paper.)

      If you get to your goal and feel on a roll, keep going. If you’re struggling, stop there. At least you got SOMETHING down. And over time it mounts up.

      1. Manders*

        +1 to having quantifiable goals. I find it helpful to set deadlines for myself, even though they’re completely artificial.

      2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        This is how I got through nearly every major college paper (and as a theology student, I had a lot of those!) back in the day. I’d say to myself “All right, Boochie, you can crank out two double-spaced pages on the topic of Whatever, and then you’re allowed to call yourself Done on this paper for today.” And then two pages would be easily achievable, and if I was on a roll, I’d keep rolling — but once I choked, that was okay, I was done.

        It took a certain amount of planning ahead because of due dates, but when you’re writing for yourself, you don’t have those. 90% of the task is just getting the words out of your head and into being.

      3. RestlessRenegade*

        Alternatively, I can’t remember who said it, but: “Stop writing when you know exactly what you’re going to write next.” I find this so helpful in continuing each day, because it means I don’t boot up the doc and think “what the heck happens now?”

    5. Manders*

      I’m in the same boat! Writing part-time and working part-time is my eventual goal, although I know I’m a long way out from it.

      I find it helpful to block a few evenings per week off as just writing time–have some prepared meals ready to go, make no social commitments on those days, and do whatever you need to do to block other distractions.

      Your mileage may vary on this, but I’ve found that I get a lot of creative energy from hanging out with other writers–but only if they’re dedicated to the actual process of writing, not just talking about what they’d like to write in a theoretical future where they have unlimited time and money, how hard it is to write, or how bad books by other writers are. Think about the conversations you’re having with your writer friends. Are they making you more or less enthusiastic about writing?

      1. SoSo*

        I would agree with the advice about hanging with other writers. Sometimes when I’m stuck in a rut I’ll set up some time to do writing sprints with a friend online, and it’s a whole lot easier to get started when there is another writer sitting on the other side of my computer, doing the same thing! Usually we’ll do 2-4 sets of 15 minutes (with chat breaks between to discuss word count and any issues/thoughts that arose during the last session) and it really gets your gears moving when you might not be feeling up to it otherwise.

    6. Foreign Octopus*

      If you’re a morning person, which I am definitely not, could you maybe try getting up an hour earlier to dedicate solely to writing. Even thirty minutes in the morning is better than 0 minutes all day.

      Or instead of looking at the time, maybe set yourself a word count to hit each day. Something manageable like 500 words might be better than trying to carve out time because you can do 500 words in spurts throughout the day, i.e. on your lunch break, when you’re on hold, when you take a five minute break from your computer. This might work better for you.

      Good luck and don’t give up!

    7. Q*

      Experiment to find your sweet spots in terms of time and setting, experiment with strictness, and try to see ups and downs as a part of the process.

      I wrote multiple drafts of two books while working full-time. There wasn’t one particular thing that worked, but when I was actively working on a draft, I would often write in the morning while I was still in bed, while I was eating breakfast, while I was on the subway, going up the escalator from the subway, on my lunch hour, etc. When I got stuck, sometimes I would put the manuscript away for a while and sometimes I would try to create a setting to get myself moving again, i.e. a 2-hr evening writing date with myself. Being in writing groups was helpful (for both feedback and camraderie) although it did take up time as well (though reading and giving feedback on manuscripts also fit in well with commuting and mealtimes).

      I’ve also had periods of writing full time. They were wonderful in a way, and some things I’ve written needed that kind of uninterrupted energetic spaciousness, but for the most part I produced as much while working full time as I did while writing full time, which is not something I would have predicted. Jobs took the pressure off in a big way and also kept my mind active.

    8. FrontRangeOy*

      Whether you will work best with a dedicated time daily, or time on weekends, set up a habit of writing time. It will be very hard at first! We’re taught, as creative types, to write when inspiration hits, but if you want to write for a living, cranking out multiple books a year, you’re going to need to establish a habit of writing during these hours/on these days, and producing as much output as you can during that time.

      Your writing habit might be the hour before bed when you would normally watch a TV show. It might be 9 to noon on Saturdays and Sundays. Whatever the habit is, get your tools out and put something on paper. You might find yourself journaling frustration. You might find yourself writing lines of dialogue. You might find yourself writing character sketches for stories you’ll never write. You might pull down a book and work at turning a chapter into screen play format (a very interesting exercise in working out what the most important bits are, and how to turn narrative content into action or dialogue). That’s ok. You’re establishing the habit of showing up to write and eventually, it will get easier to produce the content you want to produce.

      1. FrontRangeOy*

        And also, hard deadlines are very useful for generating a sense of urgency and motivation. I would look for a handful of short story contests a year and write for those. You’ll get experience at meeting deadlines, you’ll get eyeballs on your work, and you’ll gain confidence at developing stories and characters.

    9. Fiennes*

      I’m FT now, but balanced day job and writing books for a few years. I should preface everything I’m saying with this info: I have no children, and I was single the majority of that time, so my schedule was very much my own. Still, I think the principles apply. The three main things I did:

      1) reserved a couple of weeknights only for writing. No tv, no internet wanderings, no socializing, no errands. I’d make sure to pick up food on the way home or have leftovers in the fridge so even cooking wasn’t an issue.

      2) split my weekends into two. One of the days would be the day when I saw friends or ran errands or let myself be a lazy bum. The other day, I’d work anywhere from 8-12 hours straight on writing. That let me make progress without feeling like I’d totally abandoned any social life or relaxation.

      3) I always put together playlists for books, and I would listen to mine on the way home from work on writing days. It got me thinking about the story and gave me ideas about where to begin when I got home. This got me into “flow” much faster. That specific advice may not be for you, but whatever it is that helps you focus on your writing—try to find a way to incorporate it into your commute. (Obviously, if you’re a morning writer, this may not track the same way; I would urge you to do the thing right before bed, in that case.)

      Final note: I love being a full-time writer, but *not everyone does.* Many people find they miss the daily/weekly structure, having coworkers, having a clear divide between work and home, etc. Despite everything, I definitely miss regular, predictable paychecks and excellent health insurance! So don’t be caught up in envy; there are pros and cons to every job, even writing novels.

      1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

        I honestly wouldn’t write full time even if I could afford it. Writing is the one thing I get to do 100% on my terms/schedule (well, except for editing deadlines from my publisher), and I think I’d start to hate it if it became just one more thing I have to do.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I’d like to, but without the added stress of being unemployed, which is not conducive to thinking, let alone organizing my thoughts in any coherent form.

      2. Anon Anon*

        Thank you so much for these tips! I really appreciate your (and everyone else’s) advice in this thread. You and a few others suggested blocking out just a couple of nights a week to focus exclusively on writing, which seems much more manageable to me than coming home every night and thinking, “I should write” and then feeling guilty when I’m too tired to do so. I love your playlist idea as well and will try it out!

        Thank you also for pointing out some of the downsides of being a full-time writer—I do have to remember to be thankful for my health insurance and other benefits more often!

    10. Agreed*

      I find this hard, too. In the past I tried to get a few pages done over my lunch break, but I hate writing longhand, and I won’t use my work computer because technically the company would own my writing then.

      The only nights I can manage to get anything eked out have to be a perfect storm: no errands or laundry or household crises, which of course occurs exactly never.

    11. Jady*

      I’m in the same boat. I’ve wanted to be a writer/artist since I was a young child. I did a lot of both until I hit college, and then nothing. I’m on the extreme end of introvert, so I’m both mentally and emotionally drained after work every single day. I can’t recuperate fast enough to have my creativity restored over the weekend.

      Whenever I have a week or more off – vacation, holidays, even a time when I had surgery! – it always comes flooding back and that’s all I want to do, but the second I return to work it all ends, and then I just feel terribly depressed.

      I’ve tried the typically advice of set a schedule, or reserve a day, and just force myself to write. But that just doesn’t work for me. I’ve been trying to figure something out for years, but not much luck my way.

      The only thing I have figured out is that I can squeeze out something small during work sometimes. My smartphone has been great for that – whether it’s during lunch or a break or while I’m just sitting around waiting for something.

      I can write on my phone and it syncs everywhere I need it. Or I’ll bring in a small drawing book (or sometimes just use a sticky note or printer paper) and do a bit of drawing. I actually have sticky notes hanging on my cube wall of small drawings, and the compliments I get from coworkers is a bonus.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        You might be a good candidate for some of the “creative sprint” like-things going around. They’re tiny twitter / social media challenges that can be drawn art or photography and are super quick, like “arrange the things on your desk right now into something that symbolizes your dreams,” etc. You upload a picture and you’re done, but then other people do the same challenge and you can look at all the responses, give kudos etc. The idea is to get yourself back into creative habits – I have friends who swear by them.

        2. Jady*

          Would you happen to have any links or specific tags I could check out? I haven’t found much through a few google searches.

    12. Ellery*

      I get my writing done by taking advantage of a long commute (40min on a train) and during my lunch hour. Obviously I don’t advise this if you drive to work.

      My friend gets most of her writing done in the morning before work, but she is a morning person.

    13. Anon Anon*

      Thank you all for your helpful, wonderful replies! Many of you suggested for me to block out a couple nights a week dedicated to focusing exclusively on writing. I’m not sure why I haven’t thought of doing something like that before, but it seems like something I can successfully follow through on because it’s not every night. I plan on treating myself to take-out on those nights so I don’t have to worry about dinner prep and to make those nights “different” than other nights. :-)

    14. RestlessRenegade*

      Thank you for posting this! There is such great advice in this thread that I desperately need. It’s been hard to keep writing consistently in the last two years (since I got my MFA) and I’m hoping that even with my full time job, I can use these tips to get back into the swing of it!

    15. LilySparrow*

      I don’t have a FTDJ now, but I did when I wrote my first book.
      I got up at 5 and wrote for an hour before getting ready for the office. A lot of days I also wrote on my lunch break.
      My brain is worn out by 4pm. Writing at night has never worked out well for me.

      Now I freelance from home and am primary caretaker for my kids. I wouldn’t want to go back FT, but quite honestly I got a lot more of my own writing done because my job had very clear boundaries. Now I feel like I’m “supposed to” be doing all 3 roles (mom, freelancer, writer) all the time, at the same time.

  36. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    I posted in the last couple open threads about an amazing interview I had at my former employer and all the changes they’ve made over the past 3 years that would make it an outstanding place to work this time around. Unfortunately, I got word on Wedensday that I didn’t get the job. I’m really disappointed, but it’s understandable as I was asking for some pretty big concessions in regards to salary and flexibility (which they knew about in advance and said were acceptable to them). I’m still glad I threw my hat in the ring, but I think for the summer at least I’m going to put any job hunting activities on hold. I have some personal goals that had I got the job I would have probably pushed aside (revising my 3rd book and getting it out for submission, completing an online SQL class, starting Krav Maga classes, etc.), so I’m going to focus on those and see where it takes me for the next few months.

    1. Specialk9*

      Sorry to hear that. Sounds like a good list of things, and I do love krav maga.

  37. J*

    Any tips or resources on preparing for a nonprofit board position interview? It is the advisory board for a local chapter of a nonprofit, not the full national organization. I haven’t served for a long time with the organization, but have been working with them for about 6 months and saw they were accepting applications for new board members. I am really passionate about their cause and want to serve them however I can, but I feel like my age and experience level may not be up to par (I’m 28, individual contributor at my company with no formal leadership experience). It won’t break my heart to not be on their board but I really want to make a positive impression and maybe at least get assigned to a sub-committee and keep the door open for future opportunities on their board.

    1. FrontRangeOy*

      I would advise spending a bit of time thinking about what skills or outlook you bring to the board. Instead of trying to guess at what they want in a board member, present what makes you different. Your age may be valuable. The board I sit on is making a concerted effort to become younger so we represent our community more clearly. What hobbies do you pursue? What part of the community do you live in?

      There are lots of resources on the net for learning how to be an effective board member. Don’t let yourself wallow in the inexperience part. Focus on who you are and what you can bring to the board’s perspective

    2. InternWrangler*

      I’d just like to say that I appreciate that you are willing to put your hat in the ring. I’m not sure people understand how important board service is. Nonprofits needs strong leaders and strong leaders need strong Boards. You are going into it with the right attitude–willingness to serve and willingness to join a committee before joining the full board.
      I would advise you think about and prepare to speak to your understanding of the role of the board–governance, fiduciary, fundraising. You should also be able to speak to whether your employer supports board involvement–which could be that they will provide a financial contribution to match your time or that they are neutral on participation.
      And take time to think of your questions–often what people ask is as telling as what they answer. You might want to know how the board works with the senior leadership team, if they are a governance or working board, what the expectations are, how they make decisions. What kinds of decisions are they involved in? What are the major challenges facing the organization and the board?
      I’m sure you will be great! Let us know how it goes.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        This is good advice. I am on two boards. Because we are rural we require people have a heartbeat and that is about it. It’s nice to know where people’s skills are and it’s nice to know what areas people are familiar with. Don’t worry about being top-notch, the board may just be interested in someone who has a variety of moderate skills in various areas. It’s also good to know where people’s interests are, if you can do it in a way that does not sound like it’s the only thing you want to do. We had one person who wanted to redecorate, I think that is all she wanted. After a few years that did not happen so she moved on.
        Some boards can require lots of time, so they may ask you about your availability. Be sure to point out that you are willing to work on writing projects through email as well as other projects that lend themselves well to working off hours.

        Keep your eyes open for requirements to make donations to the program, monetary or material donations. Make sure you are okay with those requirements if there are any.

  38. Ainsley Hayes*

    I have waited way too long to show interest in an internal job opportunity, and wondering if there is any way to recover, or if I missed the boat. Actually, the job is not even posted yet, and they are not looking to hire anyone until July, but we have all known that this person was leaving her position for quite a while (it’s a retirement situation). I know a smart internal candidate would have shown interest very early on, but I dragged my feet and am now kicking myself.
    My delay was partly from over thinking whether I even wanted the job and if I was ready for the responsibility (it’s a jump into management) and partly just plain nerves and working up the courage to put myself out there. Well, it’s definitely getting to “—– or get off the pot” time – they are starting the search in earnest later this month- and I need to say something but I’m feeling really embarrassed that I waited so long. I work for a small company (no HR, or any official “hiring manager”) and I have a pretty good relationship with the person I would need to talk to- I feel like she would be supportive, but that I may still get “why didn’t you say something earlier?” What’s the best way to handle this, this late in the game? I am also worried about one other internal candidate who I know showed interest over a month ago…

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      Stop self-sabotaging yourself! STOP it! You know when it will be too late too express interest? When they’ve hired someone else. That time is not now. Go to the person in charge of hiring, say, “I’ve been thinking a little more about the upcoming position, and I think I would be interested after all,” and you’re set.

      I mean this advice in the most supportive way possible, because I do the same thing. I talk myself out of opportunities all the time, and I don’t want you to do the same!

      1. Specialk9*

        This, all of this. Your anxious brain squirrel is on crack, stop letting it run the show. :)

        Take a deep breath, throw your name into the ring, and focus positively on why you are interested in this position.

    2. SoSo*

      It’s definitely not too late. Too late would be if you came in while they were halfway through the interview process, not an month before they even start searching! And if you do get the “why didn’t you say something earlier” question- it’s an easy and an honest answer- you needed some time to think over the pros and cons and consider if you thought it would be a good opportunity for you. If anything it shows that you aren’t jumping in head first without thinking rationally about it.

    4. Christy*

      Do it now. Not too late and also not a big deal that you waited this long. If they ask why you waited, say you were evaluating if you had an interest in the job, since it is higher level of responsibility (if it involves managing people – you can specifically cite that. Most people understand that managing people is both a blessing – opportunity! responsibility! advancement! – and a curse -more stress! personality conflicts!) etc etc.

      Don’t worry about the other internal candidate now. First have this conversation. One step at a time

      Good luck and you’ve got this!
      (also – LOVE your comment name)

    5. NW Mossy*

      As someone who’s about to extend an offer for an open position on my team, speak up!!!!! I was accepting submissions right up to the point that I was done with finalist interviews.

      Why? Because I’d rather have a great candidate with imperfect timing than an imperfect candidate with great timing. Any sane hiring manager is thinking about the years they’ll have their hire with them, and the timing of applications is way down the list of things to care about.

    6. ScoutFinch*

      Love your user name – “Ginger, get the popcorn!” Sam’s getting his a&& kicked by a girl!!”

      Let them know your interest NOW. It’s not too late.

    7. DDJ*

      For the sake of this, I’m going to call the hiring-manager-but-not-officially “Hiring Manager.”

      “Hi Hiring Manager! I was waiting for the position to be posted, but I notice it’s still not up, and I want to make sure you know I’m interested in it. I think I’d be a really great fit for the position, and I’m looking forward to officially throwing my hat in the ring once it’s posted.”

      In response to “why didn’t you say something earlier,” I think something along the lines of “I didn’t want to overload you if you weren’t ready to start thinking about that yet – with someone retiring, I’m guessing that a lot of work goes into planning for that! I’m sorry if I should have said something earlier, though. I wouldn’t want you to think that my not mentioning it is an indication that I’m not excited about the opportunity.”

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Why didn’t you say something earlier?

      Well I don’t take applying for a job lightly. I spent time considering it and talking it over with people whose advice I value. If I took the job I intend to be with the job for a while, this means doing a self-check but it also means looking around the company with fresh eyes. I weighed this out carefully and decided I would like to apply.

  39. Xarcady*

    Yesterday, they laid off 15 people. We had all thought the company was doing well. The official line is that the company is doing just great!, the layoffs are just part of the new strategic plan.

    One department is down to one person. Another got cut in half. The rest of the layoffs seem random, as if they told directors that they had to let one person they manage go.

    A bitter pill to swallow when your co-worker, with 16 years at this company, is crying as she fills the boxes they so kindly left at her desk while she was in the conference room getting the bad news.

    And no one knows if there will be more layoffs or not.

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      “Everything’s just fine, totally fine, don’t look at the man (fifteen layoffs) behind the curtain!”

      Jeez, that sucks. It doesn’t hurt to start polishing up the ol’ resume, just in case.

      1. KellyK*

        I’d go further than that and assume that you’re likely to be laid off in the near future and get job hunting. The line about everything still being fine and the layoffs being part of a strategic plan sounds like BS, especially when they were widespread and random. Your coworkers didn’t get any heads up, so if you’re next, you won’t get any either.

    2. bye bye ms american pie*

      ” The official line is that the company is doing just great!, the layoffs are just part of the new strategic plan.”

      Well, I don’t know if they’re lying to you, but it sounds like they’re not being completely honest. I’d probably assume more layoffs in the future, especially since these were without warning and while telling you that everyone was fine. I’m not sure companies where everything is totally fine decide to just layoff 15 people for siths and giggles.

      2. essEss*

        I worked at a shoe store chain back in college that actually told me when I was hired that if customers asked if the store was closing to assure them that it wasn’t actually true. They told me that they were just having really good sales to clear out all their old inventory to get ready to start with fresh styles. I worked there for about 3 months and they closed the entire chain of stores. They knew they were closing when they hired me but they deliberately lied to me.

      3. KX*

        Well… where I work they are doing great! High profits, money in the company bank, everything. And they are openly working on a software tool that will automate the work about 40 of us do, and they are piloting the program this summer. They introduced it at a company meeting as something that will reduce the number of people they need by a half or a third. (Not quite in those words, but in those words.) Within a year I am certain that our department will be cut in half or by a third.

        They will let these people go not for shits and giggles, but because they won’t be needed anymore. At least we have plenty of warning.

    3. You don't know me*

      as if they told directors that they had to let one person they manage go…
      This is actually very likely, at least it has happened in my experience. When I was a supervisor, our manager took us all in a meeting and announced we needed to rank our team members from best to worst and the two lowest on the list were being let go. And that is exactly what happened.

      And our company was doing great financially! I’m so glad I’m out of there now too.

      1. Samiratou*

        Wow, that’s pretty brutal. Managers should at least have the balls to pick the people themselves, and if they don’t know who the low performers are, well, then maybe the managers should be the ones to go…

        Sometimes, depending on how long a company has been around, there gets to be people who really need to be let go. Maybe the job needs have changed and they don’t really have a role or they’ve always kind of sucked but not in a way that made sense to fire them, and occasional small layoffs can be useful for that type of thing.

        But having your teams rank each other? That’s cold, man.

    4. CatCat*

      Oh man, I am so sorry you are in this situation. I feel so bad for your laid off colleagues.

      I would definitely start getting my resume in order and putting feelers out for other jobs.

      I’m seriously side-eyeing any claims that “the company is doing great” if they just kicked 15 people to the curb. If the company is doing great, then why the need to do that? Either it isn’t really doing great financially, or the higher ups have dumpster fires for hearts. Either way, not a place I’d be looking to stick around.

    5. Specialk9*

      Layoffs are a thing in many companies. They just are. They are also an enormous punch in the gut.

      Personally, I focus on certs, IT tool training, and polish up my LinkedIn/resume when I get layoff anxiety.

      So, like, a lot.

  40. KayEss*

    Got a moment of petty schadenfreude catharsis from my old job the other day. One of my two coworkers who were transferred to other admin positions when the rest of us were summarily laid off (and the department dissolved) texted me out of the blue, and we had a nice conversation. However, I found out in the course of it that, well… when we shut down, it turns out no one transferred the spreadsheet of social media account passwords to the department (supposedly) taking that over. I was a little embarrassed, because I would definitely have wrapped that loose end up on my way out if I had been aware that the retained coworkers didn’t know about and have access to it!

    I told my still-employed coworker that the spreadsheet was probably still in the same place on the shared network drive, and jokingly suggested that she could “discover” it and be a hero… she said she preferred to watch our replacements struggle. I guess that’s what you get in terms of employee loyalty when you ax an entire department out of the blue with no business continuity plan.

  41. Administrator excellante*

    Is anyone else on here a published author? After years of writing and submitting, I actually have an agent and finished book that is almost ready to be submitted to publishers (my agent is doing line edits as I type). I am also in a pleasant, but dead-end, administrative job. I really don’t know what I should be doing professionally. I love to write and want that to be my career (I’ve done some ghostwriting work int he past and loved it), but getting a well-paying job doing that is proving much harder than I thought and I’m not getting a lot of leads. I have also been looking at other secretarial jobs (a girl’s gotta eat), but I don’t really want to be a secretary anymore. I also don’t know what the future looks like with this current book, so I’m stuck in a weird limbo and have no idea what to do.

    So has anyone been in a situation similar to this? Does anyone have any advice on switching careers in your mid-thirties or navigating the transition from side-hustle to main hustle?

    1. SoSo*

      Have you considered content writing? I know there are a lot of freelance opportunities that allow you to write blog posts and articles for money (depending on length/word count), and are easy to take on while you’re still working at your current job before transitioning into full time work.

        1. SoSo*

          I know that Upwork and Indeed will have freelance content writer positions posted. There’s also a company called The Hoth that hires freelance writers and you sign up for as many articles as you want per week and they pay you directly, but I’ve heard mixed reviews about the company itself.

          1. SoSo*

            Also I’m sure there’s a ton more that I’m not aware of, I just know of these few because it’s a field that I’ve been considering dipping my toe into for the last couple of months. A deeper Google dive probably has a lot more information.

      2. Delphine*

        Caveat: content writing killed my ability to write for pleasure. It was very difficult for me to write articles (often about horribly dull things like telecom law or window film) for hours and then drum up the energy to write for myself. I ended up freelancing as an editor, which I loved.

    2. Q*

      Does your job meet your needs financially, and would it continue to do so for the long haul if you stayed in that job or in that field? If so, try reframing it a bit and see how that feels… a pleasant job that meets your financial needs and supports your writing practice (to the point that you are able to write & publish books while at the job) is actually quite valuable. Might be that you can stay within the field and find something that has you writing a bit more during the day or otherwise brings a bit more challenge, without losing the good aspects.

      1. Administrator excellante*

        Thanks for replying. This is probably where I’ll land. It just feels weird to stay at a job that I know has no room for advancement. But I think the replies below hit the nail on the head. I just have to look at it from a more positive angle.

        1. Q*

          You’re welcome. Good luck! Have you ever seen the book Creating a Life Worth Living by Carol Lloyd? She has a chapter on day jobs that does a great job of mapping out the pros and cons of different approaches… the “no contest” job vs. a job in the industry (e.g. editor) vs. a differently-creative job etc. Helpful for perspective. I live in a university town and a lot of the admin folks are creatives of one kind or another who appreciate the steady 35hr/wk work week and generous (for the U.S. at least) vacation.

    3. Fiennes*

      Stay in that admin job. If you really are in a position to devote a lot of time to writing fiction, do NOT take a full-time writing position elsewhere.

      I had writing jobs for years in everything from marketing to magazines. During that time, I worked on my fiction writing but made slow progress. Finally I took a very corporate job (which technically involved writing but in practice was very rote), strictly for the money, and thought I was selling out. It was the best thing I ever did for my writer self. The reason why? I wasn’t using up all my creative capacity on work. My imagination needed new places to go, badly! Fiction became more than my goal; it became my outlet. I published my first three books at that job, and only left it to go FT. And that job was actually pretty demanding in terms of hours and stress! If I’d had a less-demanding job that still paid my bills, that would’ve been a *dream,* those first few years.

      YMMV, of course. But in my personal experience, creative writing at work doesn’t particularly foster even more creative writing at home…and for some people, may have the exact opposite effect.

      1. Administrator excellante*

        Thanks for the insight, burn out is something I’ve thought about. I’m seriously considering technical writing since it seems like it would be different enough to (hopefully) avoid burning out, but I haven’t been getting any bites on my applications. Maybe that’s for the best.

      2. WellRed*

        I write for a living for a business magazine. people are always giving me journals as gifts assuming I write for pleasure in my free time. I do not.

    4. curly sue*

      I’ve published four novels and while the sales were decent enough to put me in the low end of the mid-list, they came nowhere close to the kind of money that would allow me to lose the day job even if I wanted to. I’m in romance, and the people I see making day-job money are the ones who have secured a reputation in their niche and have an active release schedule – the best way to sell backlist is a new release, and so on.

      Writing careers that aren’t for online content farms are few and far between, from what I’ve seen. My advice is to keep the day job for now, network with other writers – especially if you’re a romance author! Twitter’s huge for getting your name known – and write another book.

      1. Administrator excellante*

        I am not a romance writer (thought I have done some romance ghostwriting) and I’m trying to remind myself that just getting published would be huge (fingers crossed). The general consensus seems to be that I should just stay at my job. Now I just need to get a better attitude about staying.

    5. Foreign Octopus*

      I don’t have any advice, I just wanted to say congratulations on the book. That’s a huge accomplishment!

    6. Frea*

      Published here, with my fourth book (maybe) coming out this year, and working toward a goal of part-time day job part-time writing. Publishing is the slowest beast ever, so as much as you’d love to take a leap…just be careful.

      My day job that pays the mortgage and the vet bills is technical writing, and it’s different enough in style that it doesn’t kill my fiction writing drive. Granted, a lot more of it is editing, formatting and organizing, so I use less writing than originally thought. When I switched over to this, I was coming from a different career field entirely. What got me in the door were a few community college classes and my own writing. It might be worth it to check into that?

    7. Evil HR Person*

      This is probably too late to mention to you, but I have a friend who’s done a killing of a living by self-publishing! You can look up her books and website: Elizabeth Hunter. On her site, she has explained on various posts how she’s turned her writing and self-publishing into a full-time job. She travels extensively too. I don’t know if that ship has sailed for you now that you have an agent – but look her up anyway!

      Actually, I don’t think any ship sails that cannot be boarded later, so if you have the time and the muse is helping, keep on writing! At least you’ll have more material to give to your agent/publisher. And if that doesn’t pan out, you’ll still have material that can be published later, either on your own or with a different agent/publisher. Best of luck!

  42. Chupalupe*

    I’ve received a job offer and am just waiting for my visa to come through. Is it better to give my notice without the visa confirmation (potentially being out of a job) or wait until the visa comes through and potentially not be able to give two weeks notice?

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      I’d wait until you get the visa, unless you were absolutely one-hundred-percent sure you were going to get it. If it ends up being less than two weeks, you can apologize and explain the visa situation, but you don’t want to quit and not have the visa go through.

    2. whistle*

      You have to put yourself first. If you do not have the finances to go without work, wait until the visa comes through. (Have you asked your new employer if you can work out two weeks once the visa comes through?)

    3. KellyK*

      Why wouldn’t you be able to give two weeks’ notice when the visa comes through? Does your new job have a firm start date that isn’t dependent on the visa? (That seems odd, since they don’t necessarily know how long that process will take.)

      I wouldn’t give notice until you have everything in place to actually be able to start the job, but I’m kind of a pessimist and work from the assumption that something can *always* go wrong.

    4. AeroEngineer*

      I would wait for the visa. I don’t know for what country you are getting it for, but I have a friend who thought everything was going well, and then a wrench was thrown in the works and now everything is back up in the air to the point that he is not even sure if he will end up getting it.

      As long as everything is done correctly, I would think it would not take that long for it to be processed (though again, depends on the country). Is the company not keeping track of the visa issue and perhaps you could shift your start date in the case that it takes longer? Since I am guessing that they had to submit documents, I would think that they would be more understanding, as I doubt you are the first nor last person to have this issue.

  43. Argh!*

    Who else uses Outlook or another calendar to keep tabs on when toxic people are busy or out of the office?

    Just knowing that vicious, vindictive grandboss isn’t here today, and that my boss’s pets aren’t here either makes this a rather happy Friday for me!

    1. k.k*

      Oh I love shared calendars for that reason. Like if you need to drop off something at ToxicPerson’s desk…wait until they’re in a meeting so you can conveniently miss them.

    2. bye bye ms american pie*

      Oh yeah, someone I couldn’t stand always used to arrange his schedule to never be there on a specific day of the week and it was SO GREAT to know that he wasn’t going to be pestering me that day. It was freeing.

    4. May*

      At my workplace we watch the parking lot for the boss’s car. There’s a women’s restroom that gives the perfect view, and sometimes the menfolk will ask the womenfolk to look for them.

      I have also checked the shared folder our travel manager uses to save itineraries if I hear rumors the boss is traveling. (This option is not widely known to be available, and I have to keep it that way, or it might go away.)

      Happy Friday!

    6. Gatomon*

      I used to when I worked at ToxicJob! ToxicBoss was typically out on Fridays, but loved to come in with no warning. So I stalked his calendar relentlessly to see if he had anything scheduled, since that was usually a good indication he’d be showing up.

      ToxicUnderlingBoss was there all week usually, but loved to schedule herself into meetings to avoid having to do work (that she couldn’t do) so I also stalked her calendar to know when she’d be out of the workspace.

      Fridays when both bosses were out were such a relief.

    7. Jasper*

      Oh, I LOVED this when I worked at ToxicRetailJob. Looking at next week’s schedule and seeing both the people bullying me off on the same day, with the store manager on vacation was the absolute best thing ever. I think my department manager did it on purpose for me because he had ample reason to fire both of them but store manager wouldn’t let him so that they would eventually drive me to quit without him getting any uncomfortable calls from a lawyer about firing the employee he had been openly bigoted towards. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  44. Chupalupe*

    How many people have references called after an offer is made and you’re introduced to the team? I’m working out things with HR right now, and was surprised that I’ve accepted their offer and they still want to call my references.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Me! I’ve had it happen when I’m the job candidate, and when I’ve the one providing the reference. Seems a little backward to me.

    2. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      That’s how things went at both of my last two jobs. It seems pretty common in my industry.

      I totally get (and prefer!) for a reference check from a reference at my current job to be held until after the offer, but I don’t understand the reasoning behind holding all reference checks until after the offer.

      That said, I kind of like it… Only because I like the idea that the decision for the offer is made based on the hiring managers opinion, but that they do get the chance reverse the offer if they find out something highly problematic… I’ve got a bit of baggage when it comes to references though. I worked for a string of highly toxic companies and highly toxic managers in my early career. I’ve just seen so much really inappropriate/unethical reference behavior from those managers, that I have a hard time placing much stock in references (aside from truly/obviously factual problematic stuff – like stealing/assaulting a co-worker, etc.).

      But that’s a totally personal issue/thing – I know that’s not really how the professional world works. I’ve just been unlucky enough to encounter more of the negative than the average person (I think).

      Anyway – it does seem to be common in my industry.

    3. tamarack and fireweed*

      Yes, this happened to me, and seemed pretty common, in some mid range software and related services industries. In my case it was in the UK, where you got a 6 months probationary period during which both employee and employer could easily terminate the relationship (which is much harder later on). They want to bring on people quickly, and if something terrible shows up during references, they still can bow out with little harm done. I think my references were called weeks after I’d started working. No big deal.

  45. Bipolar lurker*

    Hi all, I’m a longtime reader/lurker in their early 30s who has had by my personal definition a good amount of career success and works in a job that I really enjoy. This is all great, except that I was recently hospitalized and provisionally diagnosed by several doctors with not major depression like I had thought for much of my life, but with bipolar disorder.

    This has definitely shaken me, as it is a much more complicated and stigmatized diagnosis. Also, so much of what I see discusses how people with bipolar struggle with employment and now I feel discouraged that someday I might not be able to do the job I care about anymore due to this illness.

    Do any fellow bipolar readers have any tips or success stories? Particularly in navigating work with the need to avoid excess stress/keep pretty strict self-care strategies or how to balance therapy appointments, med changes, and bad days with their workload? And of course, there’s the question of how to deal with hospitalization if that should suddenly be necessary again the future. I’ve always had a great track record and have done my best not to let my depression and anxiety affect my performance, but the fallout from my hospitalization and all the changes I’m needing to make have me feeling rattled and not myself.

    Thanks for any help!

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Well, first I’m going to challenge you on one statement. You don’t think you can do your job any more because of a diagnosis? Why not? You’ve been doing it so far, what does some words on a piece of paper matter? I think that’s your anxiety speaking – you’re scared, you’re unsure, things are changing. Take it one day at a time. If there’s something you need to adjust with your schedule or job, address it as you know about it.

      One of the ways we dispel stereotypes is by treating it as matter-as-factly as possible. You got this. You’re getting the help you need, so just keep on a path towards better health.

        1. Irene Adler*

          And let me add, can’t let this diagnosis dictate your professional future. Sure, you’ll have to take steps to manage your bipolar, but this shouldn’t adversely affect your career.

          Work with your docs. Keep them apprised of what’s going on. Don’t “tough it out” or suffer or decide a minor annoying symptom isn’t worth reporting. Let them know so that they can treat you properly. And heed their advice.

    2. peachie*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this–it sounds very stressful.

      I don’t have bipolar disorder (I do have chronic major depression, but I know it’s not the same), so I obviously don’t know exactly what you’re going through. What I can say that might be helpful is this: Your diagnosis did not change you. You’ve been experiencing the difficulties and peculiarities of your disorder for your entire working career, whether or not “bipolar” is what you called it. And you feel like you’ve had a good deal of work success! That isn’t going to stop just because you have a new (and better!) understanding of what’s going on with you. In fact, being able to contextualize your experiences within this new frame will probably make things easier to handle, not more difficult.

      Finally, just remember that you have a medical condition and are protected by the ADA. If you need to take FMLA (I did!), you can do that (assuming your workplace qualifies). If you require hospitalization, it’s no different than needing hospitalization for any other medical condition. I know you know that, but it’s so easy to beat yourself up and categorize mental health conditions as different/more shameful than other health conditions.

    3. Irene Adler*

      HI- my sister is bipolar. Type II.
      Yes, it can be challenging. But she has a workplace that is understanding.

      She keeps to a regular work schedule. Same start/end time every day. When her boss asks for volunteers to cover additional shifts, boss knows she cannot do swing or graveyard. But she can work additional day shifts. But she does need to limit this to avoid too much stress. I gather that every year the employees bid for their shifts. She has the seniority that allows her to get a regular 8-5 schedule and not have to work multiple shifts. I gather that, if needed, her doctor can make a request that she have a regular schedule.

      She makes very sure to keep her doc appointments (boss understands these must be kept). And keeps in touch with the docs should she feel the meds aren’t doing what they should. She also heeds their advice including regular rising and bed times.

      Now, there are times when she goes on disability. This is usually when they are trying to find a new combo of meds to manage her symptoms. The side effects (until she’s used to them) make it hard to do her job so it’s best to go on disability for a couple of months. When she feels the meds are doing their job, she returns to work. I think this has happened three times over the last 15 years.

      While the boss knows about her bipolar, the co-workers do not. It is obvious to them that something is going on when she’s been on disability.

      There’s been one or two truly difficult co-workers that cause her stress. She communicated this to her boss. They’ve taken steps (re-location to a cubicle away from the offending co-worker) or talked to the co-worker. She doesn’t let these thing fester because she knows it isn’t good for her to do so.

      It helps that she works at a very large hospital. She’s been there over 20 years. There will always be a job for her there. So, she doesn’t fret about losing her job if she has to take disability to get the meds back on track.

    4. Argh!*

      I used to date a guy with bipolar who “passed” for normal. I had no idea until he told me.

      He worked in the federal government at the GS-13 level and had a Ph.D.

      He did have to move to a different agency due to losing his security clearance after hospitalization, but still made a good living doing something he had trained in and believed in.

      So… yes, it can be done. Don’t lose hope!

    5. sally*

      I don’t have bipolar specifically, but a lot of the dealing with other people stuff will likely be similar. You have likely already experienced the stigma of mental illness from having depression. The other thing is that you just got diagnosed with it, but you’ve likely had it for a while. So treatment should make certain things easier.

      For me, the stigma has often been the biggest problem. In worksituations, my approach has been to avoid disclosing whenever possible. For me, the main thing is a weekly therapy appointment during work hours. Your mileage may very, but I have just referred to it as a weekly medical appointment to my manager and haven’t brought it up to anyone who doesnt need to know. I figure there’s a decent chance they assume it is therapy, but no one has ever challenged it.

      Med changes can be tricky. Generally you might want to talk to your doctor about least inconvenient timing.

      But my advice, sadly, is that you’re not wrong about the stigma and if you can either not explain or explain it vaguely as a chronic medical condition, that can help.

      The good news is that it will only get easier.

      1. sally*

        You will need to figure out the right amount to disclose. You’ll get better at it over time. But the only part that is new is the label. You’ve gotten this far without necessarily the appropriate help. You will only get better from here! And it is your decision how much to disclose. How have you been handling hospitalizations so far? Maybe you can use those same strategies!

    6. Onward and Upward*

      I couldn’t agree more with what I’m a Little Teapot said! Bipolar disorder is incredibly variable, and there is no reason to believe that your life is going to fall apart or be over as a result of getting this diagnosis. (As a side note: Diagnosis in psychiatry, generally, is subjective and changes over time, anyway…) It sounds like you are learning some great ways to manage your condition and keep yourself healthy, and that you have a track record of success. In addition to society’s stigma, it’s also important to keep aware of internalized stigma about mental illness- you are still who you are and you are obviously strong and resilient, and this is not a failure on your part. It’s normal to feel rattled and unsettled by a significant diagnosis like this, but this diagnosis doesn’t have to dictate the course of your life. Recovery in its various forms is not only possible, it can be your expectation! Finding professional and personal supports who are person-centered and recovery-oriented will help you to keep working and to know yourself even better to manage this. Be compassionate and loving to yourself, as you would with any other kind of health condition. Best of luck!

    7. Ingray*

      I’m really sorry you’re dealing with this! I’m not someone who struggles with bipolar disorder myself but I work in community mental health. I wanted to chime in and offer some encouragement. I’ve worked with a number of people diagnosed with bipolar disorder (I also have a good friend with bipolar) who function very well. They manage to hold down jobs just fine and even to excel at them. It seems like your hospitalization threw you for a loop, but it seems like you did what you needed to do to care for yourself, which is awesome.

      If you haven’t already, you might want to check out An Unquiet Mind by Kay Redfield Jamison, a memoir of a psychiatrist with bipolar disorder.

    8. Torrance*

      You are a success story.

      In your own words, you’ve managed to achieve career success and job fulfillment while dealing with undiagnosed bipolar disorder. I spent about a decade in the same boat, diagnosed with depression while the real problem was BII– and I dealt with things like homelessness, hunger, and stuff like that. I’m one of those people you’ve read about and, from what I’ve read, you are nothing like me. You are so much stronger than you think you are.

      And it sounds like you know it, but you’re having trouble trusting yourself– which is completely normal, especially after a mental health crisis. The others are offering better workplace advice, so I’ll leave them to it. :)

    9. ManicMaria*

      I didn’t get diagnosed until I was 20 (27 now) but I have a very strong pattern back to very early childhood. My diagnosis was Type I, rapid cycling. I hadn’t realized I had a manic component because after a couple depressive stints in my mid teens I drank up all that energy, all those good feelings.

      I was still in college as a FT student and working PT as well. My schedule of attending class two days a week and the nature of my work being PT (think two days at class, four at work, one day free or along those lines) did make it a little easier to find a psychotherapist/psychiatrist who I could see. I was also hospitalized 7 months after the diagnosis. It was only for a 72 hour hold and was released after 12 or so. I unfortunately do not have any great insights into how to discuss hospitalizations with work as I was off the next day. I was able to have a private dialogue with my supervisor about an accident and would be unable to do serious heavy lifting, etc. With my classes I was able to discuss that I was starting some new medication that was sometimes making me feel a little queasy and to not worry if I left suddenly.

      Here’s what worked for me: once I got the diagnosis, treatment was easier. I hear you on it being a much more stigmatized and complicated diagnosis and I realize I probably had a much easier time finding the right cocktail of medicine. I feel like if you’ve managed under a different diagnosis for this long you have probably figured out coping mechanisms. They might be good or they might be harmful but I found that some of the strategies I have (stepping away when possible being one of the best) really endured.

      You said you enjoyed very good success before your diagnosis. Chances are you’ll continue that. For me, I was desperate for an answer–maybe that’s where I diverge. There were times I knew I was on a collision course with disaster and just did not care. I very nearly died because of some of my self-medicating habits. I have been clean since that night and I absolutely believe that lithium (started about four months after) saved my life.

      My flavor of bipolar is probably not the same flavor as yours. There are going to be times you learn that some things might be different. There are so many bipolar people being successful in their lives. There are going to be adjustments and fear. I am a creative and the most shock I got was from people who asked if I was worried it would kill my creativity side. It didn’t. The internet is a great resource but please be aware of all of the scary information that gets so overblown. Again, finding out what the root problem was (bipolar disorder) gave me a much better idea of what I was dealing with. Familiarizing myself with my patterns, even now, is a great help. Lithium has extended the time between episodes and their highs/lows are so much more mild and I track/self-report my moods. I find that I’m quite reliable.

      And one more note: if you’re a woman taking hormonal BC and prescribed lamictal be aware that they do not play nice as it does affect how your body absorbs certain medicines. For whatever reason the side effect was not as widely reported, but it’s there.

    10. Specialk9*

      My roommate of 2 years had bipolar, and she was just fine, and still seems to be.

      She said the trick was to think of the meds as vitamins, not as fixing your broken bits – because then when you feel good you convince yourself you don’t need them after all, whereas people just… take vitamins and you always need them.

      She did need extra support when she had kids, because hormones change things biochemically (pregnancy and postpartum). But, I mean, frankly so did I and I’m pretty neurotypical.

      So not to say you’re concerned for nothing – it’s something you do need to build in structures for – but that there are plenty of everyday people in those same shoes who live good happy lives.

      TV and movies aren’t reality (they need to make plot things happen, and hey this is easy).

      Internet hugs if you would like them.

    11. Related*

      I have a close family member with bipolar disorder. Unfortunately, it’s very obvious in retrospect that the symptoms were there since adolescence, because of how abuse this person was to me and other family, but Relative was not diagnosed until after being admitted to the psych ward after an arrest.

      Relative’s career is awesome. We learned this was only because Relative had so much anxiety around being “found out” about the diagnosis and being fired. This is a terrible coping mechanism! But I think it’s one that a lot of people with anxiety have. However, working on keeping a work persona in place while you get the help and meds you need can help.

      And I hope your treatment plan gets you to a better place! I really love Relative despite everything, it’s amazing the difference treatment has made. And again-still an absolute rising star in his field.

    12. No Name Yet*

      You have gotten some great advice/stories from others here, I’ll just add a few things. I’m a mental health provider who works primarily with people who have bipolar disorder, and I have worked with a LOT of people who are quite successful at work. The fact that you’ve done well when you were undiagnosed and managing on your own/without appropriate medications is quite a good sign! Working to recognize your own patterns (e.g., are your symptoms triggered more by stress, lack of sleep, time of year, etc.) can help you figure out what you individually need to keep an eye out for – you don’t necessarily need to worry about every possible thing that can trigger symptoms. Also, if you haven’t come across it yet, I really like the Depression & Bipolar Support Alliance’s website – I don’t know that they have all that much specifically work-related, but I find that overall they have a lot of good stuff there.

    13. mreasy*

      Hi! I am bipolar and was diagnosed only a couple of years ago, 15 years into my career. I’m sorry to hear you’re suffering, but I hope that having the correct diagnosis gives you hope and gives your doctors direction. It can take a long time to get the meds right, but once you do, you will get your life back. However – and this was a hard-learned lesson for me – your top priority needs to be your health. My job didn’t cause my issues, but it aggravated them. Once I changed industries, to a still exec level and challenging, but less emotionally taxing position, I became more hopeful and it was less work to keep my moods even. It is a chronic condition, but it’s very manageable as long as you pay attention to your needs, and this includes being willing to acknowledge if you need a change of pace at work.

    1. Little*

      Wow. I work in public higher ed, so this is fascinating. We’re in a budget crisis too, just like everyone else, but I don’t think anything is thinking about trying to get professors to teach for free…

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Well, I would like to remark that SIU is not… they don’t have a great reputation in the Midwest. So, I’d take them with a grain of salt, but the world of Higher Ed has some very screwy moments.

  47. Justme, The OG*

    I work with teachers in a certification program. This is my third set of teachers. This is the first set where multiple teachers have emailed me to thank me. I’m doing my job, so it feels weird to be thanked. But it also feels really nice.

  48. LibraryRaptor*

    I’m finishing up Round 3 of doing a task that keeps having changing standards. Every time I finish it the way my boss tells me to, I get “Did you do____?” No, I did not because you did not say you wanted _____ too.

    I’ve learned to ask her a million questions about what she wants ahead of time, but on projects or tasks where I can’t think of what else she might want, I end up in situations like this. It’s so frustrating, it feels really wasteful of time and energy. Just venting!

    1. mrs_helm*

      I feel you. I am working on a programming project. I’m used to very defined business rules – which are easy to write specs and code from. This project, not so much. The rules are very vague like “if there’s any mention of x or y”, and they keep coming up with additional requirements/exceptions after they’re looking at what *should be* the finished product.

      This USED to drive me insane. Now, I’ve been around long enough to decide that if THEY aren’t getting upset, I don’t need to. (Don’t take it personally.) But, it is SUCH an inefficient process, and *feels like* I am not doing a good job. Ugh.

    2. Specialk9*

      One thing that helped me not to get annoyed in that situation was to realize that people often don’t know what they want till you put something in front of them and they can say, nope, not that, more like this, oh and this other thing I forgot about. But without a starting point they can’t articulate anything. So your first draft is more of a requirements jog, so don’t get attached or put in too much time, and get in front of them early when you can change everything many times.

  49. bye bye ms american pie*

    Hi all. What are your thoughts on business attire for women, especially in the summer? I’m in a business casual environment but I’ve got a meeting at the head office coming up… in the south. I’ve been told that it’s business attire, with the comment that that means jackets and ties for the men. For the women, crickets.

    Would it be fine if I wore a button down oxford shirt with suit pants? I really hate full suits, to the extent that I don’t currently own one that fits, I think I look like a short fat marshmallow without things to break up the line.

    My other options are really nice lace pattern short sleeve shirts (they have a full lining shirt underneath, nothing is see through) that are fancy enough that I’d wear them to weddings no problem, with the suit pants. Or a nice sweater that’s in a light fabric, but I’m concerned that those aren’t fancy enough and also possibly too warm. But I don’t know the level of fancy required here.

    We’re just gonna be sitting in a conference room and talking to the director, we’re not gonna meet any bigwigs or anything.

    Thoughts? Should I just bite the bullet and go blow a lot of money on a suit I’m going to hate to wear for 1.5 days? It’s gonna be really warm outside, but I know the inside will be aircon, but we’re also going to walk to the lunch place and probably to dinner afterwards, so I’d really prefer the short sleeves with a nice zip up sweatshirt in case I need it. But I don’t know if my standards for What Is Business are at all accurate. I’ve been trying to find other shirt options, but been running into the whole revealing/uncomfortable/impractical problems and I’ve given up.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      How do you feel about dresses? Here in the south it’s pretty common in the summer to see women in sheath or shift dresses, in all kinds of colors, with a light cardigan or jacket. If that doesn’t work for you, I would go with suit pants, a shell, and a light cardigan. Personally, I wouldn’t wear an oxford shirt unless the fabric was really light, but that’s because I sweat terribly so take that advice with a grain of salt.

      1. bye bye ms american pie*

        Thanks for the ideas! I don’t like dresses, to the extent that I hadn’t thought about that all. I just need the pockets, you know? ;) The oxford shirts are light enough that when I wear them in the winter I wear a thick base layer beneath, and the nice thing about them is being able to roll up the sleeves.

        2. Women’s WEARhouse*

          You might be surprised at the amount of sheath dress with pockets! Quite a few popped up on Google, and depending on your time frame, if you want something cheaper you can try Poshmark, ThredUP, or local consignment stores since you won’t wear it often.

        3. many bells down*

          I’m not sure if it would be *quite* dressy enough for your office, but ScottEVest’s Deborah dress is a plain knit dress chock-full of pockets. I have dressed it up on a few occasions but I’m in the PNW so our “dressy” is pretty casual.

    2. DivineMissL*

      My go-to “business casual” wear in the summer are sheath dresses with a cardigan or jacket on top. All sorts of price points out there, they pack well, they look professional, give you a longer line (no color break to cut you in half) and you can take the jacket off when you go outside in the heat. You can go with a heel or a flat shoe. I like the prints but you can stick with solids if you’re more conservative. If sheath dresses don’t flatter you, then maybe some “fit and flare” or A-line dresses would be more comfortable.
      If you don’t like dresses, I think you’re fine with nice suit-type pants and a shirt, with a cardigan or jacket over.

    3. new commenter*

      How formal is the head office? Do people there wear suits everyday? If they don’t, you probably have some leeway. I find women can get away with less than suits. I, personally, wouldn’t do just a top and pants. Something about having a third item – blazer or cardigan – seems to dress it up a bit.

      I typically do a short sleeved shirt (not sleeveless, in case I remove a layer) with a light blazer or cardigan. I wear dress slacks and a pump/loafer. I avoid ballerina flats or similar because they don’t tend to read as formal.

    4. Lady By The Lake*

      An oxford shirt does not strike me as dressy enough, but you don’t need to shell out for a suit. A sweatshirt with a zipper is also too casual. A nice top and sweater (sweater — not sweatshirt), especially if paired with jewelry would be fine.

      1. bye bye ms american pie*

        The sweatshirt is brushed velvet with a golden zipper. Can you clarify wearing a top with a sweater? If a sweater doesn’t fasten, is the top seen? Sorry, I might be stuttering on the difference between a sweater and a sweatshirt.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I’m with Lady By The Lake, here– the sweatshirt is too casual. As you’ve described it, I definitely would not wear it to a business meeting. A cardigan is your best bet here, not in a sweatshirt material. I wouldn’t wear a crewneck sweater with an oxford shirt, but only because it’s the summer.

        2. KayEss*

          I would say any top with a front zipper is going to be read as casual. A cardigan or blazer-style jacket that fastens with buttons or doesn’t fasten at all is the professional alternative. Most of those are designed to be worn open, particularly for women.

        3. Temperance*

          I think the velvet with a golden zipper is still too casual, and definitely counts as a sweatshirt.

        4. Argh!*

          Eh, velvet with gold isn’t business casual. It’s more appropriate for clubbing.

          A blazer, jacket, or cardigan over a nice short-sleeved blouse would work. You can take off the jacket or sweater outdoors. Another option to cool off would be a skirt with pockets.

    5. Tex*

      If the guys are in suits and ties, then no, your oxford shirt+ pants combo isn’t enough.

    6. Chloe*

      I feel you! I am also not a dress person, but have taken to dresses and leggings to feel comfortable on the more casual days. I try to find nice blouses and shells that in winter can be paired with a jacket or cardigan. I have had some success with some of the online shopping subscription places if you have the ability to try those out. They can cater some looks personally towards what your comfortable in, what fits you, and what event you’re planning for.

      For your particular meeting, I would definitely look at something with a more structured cardigan look. I don’t think you need to do a suit, but you can do separates. I would highly suggest NOT doing a zip up hoodie/sweatshirt. That’s what the jacket is for. If you’re going to be in the meeting for a long period of time without breaks you have a slight ability to take off a suit-type jacket in order to move comfortably. Most men don’t wear their suit jackets all day in meetings either.

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      Can you put a cardigan over your lace shirts? With nice slacks, or better yet, a skirt for maximum cooling, a nice pair of shoes, I think you would be okay. If you’re on the borderline, or feel like your on the borderline, of too casual, I always feel like the shoes are the deciding factor. They can really dress up (or down) an outfit.

    8. Murphy*

      Don’t wear a suit if you don’t like suits. You don’t want to be uncomfortable.

      I think a nice blouse (short sleeve should be fine) and cardigan would be ok.

    9. Anono-me*

      I usually go with khaki pants, a silk t shirt,and a lightweight blazer style jacket. Then accessorize with a scarf or largish statement necklace.

      I would 100% not wear a sweatshirt or hoodie of any style when the men are wearing jackets and ties. It is just too informal.

    10. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I really think the majority of the women are going to be in dresses and the ones not in dresses are going to be wearing suits if the men wear suits. I’d try to find some pictures online of what people are wearing to help you out.

      1. Christy*

        Agreed
        I’m in Texas, in an environment where the men are in jackets and ties.
        Women are in nice dresses w/ a cardigan, nice dress w/ blazer, or something else w/ a blazer. It doesn’t have to be a full blown suit (ex: blazer, sleeveless shell, and pants in a different color than the blazer).

    11. Cookie Monster*

      Dresses and longer blazers are also an excellent combination. I have a chambray blazer that works really well in the summer, and as far as cultural norms go in the South, it fits right in.

    12. Janice in Accounting*

      Houstonian here–your lace-patterned short-sleeved shirt with pants and a cardigan or blazer would be perfect. A long-sleeved oxford will be too warm but you will definitely want an outer layer to wear in the air-conditioned indoors, and if you’re walking to dinner you’ll get hot quickly so you can carry your outer layer and then put it back on in the (guaranteed to be freezing) restaurant. :) Also I agree with the other commenters that anything with a zip-front is not nice enough, no matter the material. Something structured with buttons is your best bet. Throw on a nice necklace and you’ll be perfect.

      Enjoy your trip!

  50. Namast'ay in Bed*

    Any advice for first-time supervisors? I just heard that my team is getting an intern this summer, and that I will be responsible for training them. I won’t be playing a true supervisory role per se, but knowing how things operate I’ll also be the point person on answering questions, helping them through things, and delegating work to them. I’m probably overthinking it, but I’m still a bit nervous – I’ve had a lot of experience with bad trainers/managers/supervisors (who all thought they were great) and I really want to avoid doing the things I hated being on the other side of.

    I also have very little experience working with people below me. I’m almost a decade into my career and upon reflection, I’ve pretty much always been either the low man on the totem pole or worked at organizations where everyone is at the same level. The one other time I worked with an intern at a prior job I felt uncomfortable delegating work and training them. (But that may have been more that I was struggling at work and didn’t feel I could be responsible for passing on instruction or work that I myself didn’t feel I could do properly. I’m much more confident and supported in my current role and I also love coaching [sports coach for 15 years] so it may have been more that particular job than my abilities.) Maybe there’s just something in my lizard brain that gets weird about definitive hierarchies and outranking people, so I know that’s something I need to figure out.

    Either way, any advice or maybe some things to read or videos to watch? I have access to lynda.com too if anyone has some suggestions.

    1. Coqui*

      I’m a supervisor to 3 interns and was also an intern at my company before being hired on full-time. What would have helped me as an intern (and what I do now for my interns) is having an intern handbook with all of the job expectations lined out. The handbook I created is about 20 pages but has become a reference book that the interns hang onto for the first month so they can refer back to rules/regulations, procedures, office norms, and instructions directly relating to their job duties. I also ask the interns to contribute ideas to the book once they’re more comfortable in their position, and to tell me the things they wish they would have known in their first week/month.

      1. NewBoss2016*

        +1 !
        We don’t have any formal on-boarding, so I started creating a training/new-hire manual of sorts and have added on and gotten input from other supervisors/employees as time goes by. In addition to the info above, I included screenshots/instructions on how to perform some of the essential duties in our software (not sure if that applies to most, but we use a specialized software that can be difficult even with the most comprehensive in-person training), basic prioritization of duties, checklists, list of phone extensions, OUR phone/fax numbers, etc. It really wasn’t as labor-intensive as it seems, and it has been a great tool for new interns/employees.

    2. LibraryRaptor*

      My tips:
      – have clear training/onboarding procedures
      – make yourself available for questions
      – don’t be afraid to say you don’t know, just follow through on finding out
      – don’t think of it as “outranking,” you are just taking on a different role to help the work get done. Your job now includes helping people learn and making sure they can do their job well

    3. EB*

      I manage four design interns during the school year and I try to look at managing them as coaching/mentoring and that has made a difference for me. Particularly in the awkward situations… like where an intern comes in wearing a see-through blouse that’s so see-through you can see the details of her patterned bra (never a dull day around here in Creative!). It’s less about “I’m going to boss you around now” and more about “okay, clearly we missed something before in giving you guidelines, this is not your fault, but here’s a sweater and don’t wear that again”

      +1 on the handbook. We use Google here so I have a Google Doc that’s a living document that I can go in and update throughout the year. I let the interns know when it’s been updated with a particular FAQ that keeps coming up or if it’s something they’re prone to forgetting.

      Play it by ear but consider having clear zones of time where you’re not to be interrupted or have a process for asking questions (i.e. spend five minutes on the problem before coming to me unless it’s urgent for x reason). I’m thinking about implementing this for next year because I tend to have issues with interns just coming to me with questions before they really try to work out the problem. Sometimes I’ll be standing behind their computer and they figure out their problem as they’re trying to show it to me, ha. I do try to get my interns to a place where they can start to problem-solve on their own over the course of a full year, but I have more than a summer to work with so YMMV.

      ^ The flipside of that is that I have had one or two interns in the past that just DO NOT ask questions even when they’re floundering. You’ll likely need to initially check-in with them periodically and get them used to regularly chatting with you before they start learning to reach out and ask.

      I recently took a class on the “situational leadership model” and I found that helpful. Especially if you end up with more than one intern down the line, because it helped me realize that I may need to take a different approach to each student and that made a huge difference for me in the past year. I admit I started off wanting to manage them the same way because it felt like it’d be the easier thing to do at the time. Turns out it’s easier to manage someone at the level they’re at!

      Those are some quick thoughts that came to me– hope that helps!

    4. Christy*

      1) Clear expectations
      2) Clear lines of communication (if you won’t be right next to them)
      3) Interns – maybe an office culture 101. Amazed by what they don’t know (business casual on Fridays doesn’t mean wear cutoff shorts. Yes you are being sent home to change)

      think about it as coaching. Also, worry less about feeling like you are dictating things to them or ordering them around or something. When I first became a manager, I was worried about that impression. Now I realize that they all really wanted the structure, and that directing their work was literally my job.

  51. Coqui*

    Tips to get my co-worker to stop using his speakerphone? We share a small office and he pumps the volume up to 11.

    The floor setup is weird – it’s a rectangular-shaped hallway with our networking equipment in a glass room in the center and offices lining the outside hallways, so the sound bounces down the hall. My boss is at the end of the hall and can hear the conversations like they’re happening in front of him. Boss has said something to co-worker about it but co-worker hasn’t stopped using speakerphone. I’ve also complained several times to co-worker with, “Hey, can you use your headset? Speakerphone is really loud, plus I can hear your conversation in the copier room” which is 6 offices down the hall, and he looks sheepish and will stop for an hour but starts again. My boss made a comment to me that next time it happens I need to say something because “sometimes it means more when a co-worker says it.”

    1. Pollygrammer*

      It might help to stop making requests and start making statements. “I need you to stop taking calls using speakerphone. It’s distracting and disruptive.”

      Maybe even fib “sometimes I’m on the phone myself and I’m not able to get up and ask you to switch to your headset but it’s causing a problem for my own conversations.”

      Your boss isn’t doing his job, though. It’s totally in his power to make this stop.

    2. Seriously?*

      All you can do is keep telling him when you can hear it. You boss kind of sucks though. He should tell your coworker that he has to stop using speakerphone. If he doesn’t then it escalates to insubordination. It should not be a request.

    3. Argh!*

      Does your computer have speakers? Playing “It’s a Small, Small world” on repeat would get their attention. You can offer to stop playing your favorite song if he’ll use a headset. You need a bargaining chip ;-)

    4. Totally Minnie*

      Your boss thinks he’ll stop when you say it, when he hasn’t stopped when the boss mentioned it? That’s an odd piece of logic. I know a lot of supervisors don’t like to play the “I’m the boss of you” card, but this seems like a situation where it would be warranted.

      But if your boss won’t handle it the way it needs to be handled, I’d just go with directness. He’s not getting hints or suggestions, and attempts to shame him into realizing the error of his ways haven’t worked, so it seems like he really needs to hear a blunt statement. “Using speakerphone on calls is distracting and it’s getting in the way of the rest of the team finishing their work. Please use your headset when you need to take calls.”

    5. Coqui*

      Thanks for the advice, all! I’ll be more direct when it happens again. I highly respect my boss but he is a short-timer and set to retire soon so he’s pretty “meh” when it comes to what he calls interpersonal conflict. Soon it won’t be his problem anymore.

    6. Red Herring*

      Can you go further now and add that you’ve asked several times and he’s continuing to do it? Maybe call him when he’s on speakerphone?

    7. Samiratou*

      Your boss needs to grow a spine and not “mention it to him” but state “You need to stop using your speakerphone. If it keeps happening you will be written up.” No, it won’t mean more coming from you, it will mean more coming from the boss because he’s THE BOSS.

  52. HannahS*

    Not a question, just a story. One of my fellow Jewish peers and I filed a complaint against a lecturer who spent ten minutes snickering and joking about Nazis in a lecture (a physiology lecture). The program admin was appalled, met with we two, and is taking action. It’s amazing how much of a difference it makes to me that the program cares, as I spent my undergrad at a university where antisemitism was rampant and the administration didn’t care at all. So yeah. I’m weirdly excited to see it all play out.

    2. NewBoss2016*

      I cannot fathom how the lecturer thought that would play out well. I am sorry for your experience, and am glad that the program administration is on top of it.

      1. HannahS*

        RIGHT?! I have no idea what he was thinking, and a look at the recorded archival lectures showed that he’s been doing that every year!

    5. Former Govt Contractor*

      Racists and anti-Semites seem to be crawling out from under the rocks they’ve hidden under with this new administration. Despicable.

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Holy crap… good for you & your peer. I’m sorry you have to deal with it at all, but I’m glad the program admin is taking it seriously.

  53. yayitsfriday*

    Has anyone any ideas? My team is comprised of 4 people and we recently lost our highest performer. She was here for 4 years and performed at twice the pace of everyone else, received 4 industry awards in consecutive years, and was generally fantastic. Her reason for leaving was specific- lack of career progression. She offered to stay if she were promoted and given her own team. It is a niche speciality and the EC refused as they said it would not generate revenue. Now they are pointing to a downturn in performance and blaming me for not keeping her. How can I respond?

    1. Anon Today*

      Were you her manager? If you were not why are you being blamed for not keeping her.

      I do think that you can repeat the reasons why she left, and then also indicate that this will be an ongoing problem if you manage to hire other high performers.

    2. Myrin*

      Is it possible to just reiterate what you’ve written here?
      “She offered to stay if she were promoted and given her own team. You refused as you said it would not generate revenue. Because of that refusal, she left, just as she said she would.”

      1. Ama*

        Honestly I’d make it more general than that. “There was no opportunity for her to move up here, you said we can’t add another management position. We can’t encourage people to stay if we can’t provide them with opportunities for professional growth.”

    3. Grayson*

      It sounds like she was very specific in what it would have taken to keep her. I don’t know how they’re going to twist that back on you…

      1. Irene Adler*

        Unless she gave management a different reason for leaving.
        OP not specific as to whether the ex-employee’s reason for leaving was something she told the team or something she told management. It happens.

  54. NewBoss2016*

    Did anyone else get their Mom a copy of Alison’s new book for Mother’s Day? My mom is going to be so excited! We revel in workplace awkwardness and such!

    Also, I am pretty much backed into a corner, and it looks like I am going to have to have a 2nd extremely awkward (hah!) convo about my boss’s work ethic with grand-boss today. Maybe I’ll have a good story on that later.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      No, but I just ordered a copy for my future SIL as a graduation present! Her graduation is this weekend, but I will be seeing her next weekend.

  55. Future Analyst*

    I need some advice on how to have a conversation with someone I manage. She started working for me in September, and has truly had a bad year (a surgery, complications due to the surgery, two deaths in the family, one very sudden), and in 8 months, has taken off 4 weeks of paid time. I was planning on having this conversation with her after she came back from a trip– not to chastise for taking time off, just as a heads up of what the rest of the year needs to look like: I’m starting a new job soon and will have less flexibility to accommodate additional time off. The nature of her work is such that when she’s off, either my husband or I need to do the work ourselves (thus taking PTO from our FT jobs), or we need to hire someone else to do it (in which case we’ve been paying double for those days). However, the second (and unexpected) death in her family came at the tail end of her trip, and I don’t want to appear callous or unkind by bringing up her PTO. Is there a way for me to bring this up in a conscientious and understanding way? I had a similarly bad year back in 2013, so I certainly understand how this stuff goes, but I also favor clear communication by managers on what they need, so I’m torn. (And obviously I’d wait a week or so, I wouldn’t spring this on her on her first day back)

    1. Pollygrammer*

      To clarify: how much of the 4 weeks she’s taken off been for non-emergency reasons?

      There’s probably a delicate way to say that personal vacations might be a problem for [X time period] but it’s a very, very tricky line to walk when most of the time she’s been out have been for things totally outside of her control.

      1. Future Analyst*

        1.5 of the 4 weeks has been planned ahead. And yes, I don’t plan on essentially saying “you’re out of time for emergencies for the year,” but I need to raise planned time off somehow. I also don’t want to be a grinch (“no, you can’t go on the family vacation this year”), but I’m struggling to accommodate it all. :(

        1. Pollygrammer*

          Gotcha. I think you’re fine to identify a span of time in which you want to gently discourage taking a whole lot of vacation time. 4 months? 6 months? I feel like that would be fine.

    2. Totally Minnie*

      Honestly? No. There’s not a way you can bring this up right now without adding to the litany of terrible things that have happened to your employee this year. You may be thinking entirely of work outcomes, but the water is over her head right now, and this would be an incredibly unkind burden to hand her when you know what she’s already up against.

      4 weeks is not an unreasonable amount of time for a person to take for those specific incidents. I’ve had a handful of surgeries, and each time I was out of work for two weeks by order of my doctor. Then, you add in 3-4 days of bereavement time for each loss, and that’s another 1.5 weeks, and then a couple of days for unforeseen complications from the surgery, it’s all reasonable allotments of time. Your employee can’t help the fact that all of these things happened simultaneously. You cannot tell her that she needs to manage her PTO differently because of this. You just can’t.

      I get that it’s a burden to have to take on extra work and find coverage, but she’s not taking all of this leave time *at* you. By all means, have a strategy meeting where you discuss the work that needs to get done and make timelines and schedules, but do not mention how difficult things have been while she’s been out. Act like it’s a normal work meeting.

      1. Future Analyst*

        You’re right. I guess I was more asking if I can ask/tell her not to take any more *planned* PTO this year, or at least ask that she waits until Dec. But even that feels like too much (6 months without any vacation other than holidays sounds terrible). I’m struggling because in a much larger company, there would be established rules and hard limits on whatever kinds of PTO, but I’ve always been in favor of treating employees kindly and giving leeway where possible. I guess I’ll try to set up better backup.

        1. BRR*

          It sounds like you have an unlimited PTO policy. If that’s the case I think you can still set some limits for planned PTO for the rest of the year. Maybe ask what she was planning on taking off the rest of the year? You can always turn down a time off request as well.

          1. Future Analyst*

            Yeah, I think that’s one of the biggest issues here: I feel guilty turning down a time off request (b/c of the year she’s had), but this pace is not sustainable. I’ll have to do some thinking on how to work around both of those things being true.

        2. Natalie*

          I would wait until she actually asks for time off. There’s really no reason to do it now.

        3. Friday*

          Six months with no time off sounds super crappy and could drive her to leave.

          How about you tell her that you WANT her to take time off (because omg what a year for her) and you need her help in strategizing way ahead of her planned vacations how this will flow smoothly, so you don’t struggle when she’s out and so she can truly detach from work with the confidence that you support her time off and that she won’t come back to a dumpster fire at work. Make her feel like it’s truly a team thing and success in planning ahead of time rewards you all, because none of you want work stress if it can be avoided.

          Is she the first one you’ve had in this role? How did you and your husband keep things afloat before she came on board?

          1. Future Analyst*

            Agreed on the 6 months thing. We had someone else in the role for almost two years, and she really only took off a week once a year, and a day here and there. I think it was easier to work around because it was in smaller chunks. (Again, not blaming my current employee, I am genuinely sympathetic.)

        4. Totally Minnie*

          This really does seem like a good time to sit down and figure out a reasonable paid time off policy. Once you’ve taken the time to hammer out all the details, enough time will probably have passed that you can say, “As of this date, this will be our paid leave policy,” without it seeming like a reflection on your employee’s personal life. You can also frame the new policy as a bi-product of your company’s growth and your need to establish the same sort of professional norms as other companies in your industry.

          Good luck, Future Analyst!

          1. Future Analyst*

            Thank you!! You’re right- an on-paper policy would give all of us some boundaries and structure.

    3. essEss*

      A word of warning – if your company is large enough, then the employee’s surgery + complications should have fallen under FMLA time and it is illegal to punish/discipline someone for missing work during FMLA.

    4. Eye of Sauron*

      This is a tough one. I think I’d frame the discussion up by saying that things are changing in the way coverage works due to your changing circumstances. I’d acknowledge the elephant in the room with something like this.

      “Lucinda, I wanted to talk to you about some of the changes I’m anticipating now that I’ll be starting a new FT position. Unfortunately we’re going to be losing some flexibility once I start, so I want to make sure we’re on the same page regarding coverage. I’ll need X notice of planned time off requests to make arrangements and may not be able to accommodate short notice requests. I know that things have been crazy for you this year and I’m glad that I was able to support the time away when you needed it, I had a similar bad year back in 2013, so I understand your position. Please be assured that we are having this conversation because of the change of my circumstances to set expectations and not because of the time you’ve taken to for your family. “

      1. Future Analyst*

        Thank you!! This script is so helpful: the last line is really the crux of the need for the conversation at all. I would 100% not bring up her PTO at all right now if I wasn’t going to lose some of my flexibility soon.

    5. Shamy*

      This is such a difficult situation and my heart goes out to your coworker. I had a similar year in 2016, where in a 7 month span, I lost both grandparents, my mother, my dog, and my marriage fell apart followed a few months later by a hospitalization with an infection so severe, I was nearly septic and had to have a PICC line to come home. I was beyond grateful to my job for being flexible (although my contract at the time was such that if I didn’t get work, I didn’t get paid). Honestly, I think even a week after her trip is too soon.

      Maybe give her some time to get her bearings and get back into things. It doesn’t sound like she has truly had time to really do that since she started with you. Is it possible to ask her that any further time she take is unpaid when/if it comes up again? I wish I had a good answer for you, but it sounds like right now she is just trying to get through each day. I vote for a wait and see approach.

  56. Kaitastic*

    Anyone have good ideas for helping with social anxiety at work (in general)? I recently got promoted to a management position and while i love the work i do and am good at it, i have problems with participating in meetings or events where there are large groups of people. Its really affecting how people see me and my professional reputation (some have commented on it). I tried therapy but I didn’t see significant results. I don’t want medication. Any tips?

    1. Argh!*

      If therapy didn’t work and you won’t take meds, nothing we can say is likely to help you.

      Meds really do work. If you are dead-set against them, then try a different therapist, or group therapy. You can use examples from your current day-to-day interactions to discuss alternate ways of thinking.

      1. Future Analyst*

        I don’t entirely disagree, but want to point out that a) therapy is not a cure-all for everyone, and b) especially for individuals struggling with social anxiety, finding a therapist and/or group therapy is exactly the kind of interactions that really stresses them out.

        Kaitastic, I’ve had luck with CalmAid (a lavender oil supplement, found online or at Whole Foods), and yoga has helped. Basically, anything that helps you take deep breaths, hear positive reinforcements, and makes you feel in charge of yourself, will help. Other commenters have also raised joining ToastMasters or something similar to push yourself to get more comfortable being in front of a group (though obviously, YMMV, depending on the severity of your anxiety). Congrats on the promotion!

        1. Argh!*

          Not going to therapy because meeting new people is stressful is like not going to the ER with a broken leg because it hurts to walk!

          1. Future Analyst*

            I’m not saying she shouldn’t try therapy again, just that it’s kind to acknowledge the inherent stress of the situation. :)

      2. k*

        I second trying a different therapist. Every doctor has their own approach to things. Finding the right fit with a therapist can be a bit like dating, the first one is often not the right one. A lot of people with social anxiety have success with CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy); if your former doctor wasn’t using that method I’d suggest looking into one that does.

        Other small things that have helped me…on days I know I’ll be triggered like meeting days, avoiding caffeine, meditating and/or working out in the morning, mindful breathing. Being as prepared as possible…thinking ahead of possible talking points and questions I may be asked. And while not typically considered meds, I take CBD at the recommendation of a therapist (it’s not prescription, but I wouldn’t suggest taking any medication or supplement without the consulting a doctor).

        1. Argh!*

          I have never had more than normal anxiety, including some performance anxiety, but trying to “prepare” by having the answers in advance would have been more stressful for me. Instead, I remind myself that I won’t die if I get ahead of my powerpoint slides, that people don’t spend their whole day trying to decide if I’m a good or bad person, and that I’ve overcome setbacks in the past.

          Therapists call it “catastrophizing” (I think) when you attach too much significance to possible negative outcomes of a situation. Unless you are a cop or a firefighter, nothing that would happen during your day will be fatal, so it doesn’t deserve the same level of fear as a potentially fatal situation.

    2. Delphine*

      Therapy plus medication brought me out of the fog of anxiety enough that I could slowly start speaking up at meetings, talking on the phone, asking questions, etc., and that allowed me to practice. When I stopped taking my medication, that practice helped make sure that I had tools to rely on when I was feeling anxious. I would suggest setting small goals for yourself (ask one question, make one comment) and build up from there. You could even start practicing in your non-work life.

      1. Sylvan*

        +1. Therapy and medication got me from being unable to work because of severe clinical anxiety to, well, working. Anyways, whether you try treatment or not, start with small goals like Delphine said. Taking a few steps in the right direction can make you feel much more confident.

    3. Ellery*

      I benefit a lot from planning ahead. Like if anyone asks me A I can plan to respond with B. A lot of my meetings/people anxiety is not knowing what to do when things happen suddenly, so the more possibilities I plan for, the easier it is for me to handle whatever does happen. If your issues are more about just being surrounded by so many people, you could do things like take more bathroom breaks, try to focus your attention more on a single person, or possibly take notes? Something to concentrate on that isn’t all of the people.

      I’ll parrot what someone else said, that I was in therapy/on meds long enough to get myself out of a bad place and to learn the coping skills I now use every day. Taking meds is not taking meds forever. I haven’t been on meds for ten years, and can manage my anxieties enough that no one at work knows I have them.

    4. DDJ*

      Maybe pay attention to people you respect/appreciate in meetings: how do they respond to questions/raise issues/discuss materials? Also, I feel like it helps to frame it in a way that helps you remember that this isn’t a junior high presentation where people are going to make fund of you once it’s done; everyone in that meeting wants the same thing: for the company to succeed. And, probably, for the meeting not to drag on.

      Also, it can help to plan for your common reactions. Make a goal to contribute one thing to a meeting – ask one question, provide one piece of data, one suggestion, that sort of thing. Nothing major. And accept that you’re likely going to have a physical reaction to it – your face might get hot, your hands might shake a bit, your pulse is probably going to start racing (what do you mean, it sounds like I have experience with this? I have no idea what you’re talking about).

      I also found it useful to start speaking up in group settings that weren’t meetings – when a group of people have congregated near the kitchen, before a meeting starts, people milling around, even small talk on the elevator. It can make a big difference.

      I’ve been dealing with anxiety my entire professional career, and here’s something else I’ve found: it never goes away. You can manage it, you can prepare for it, but it might be a constant thing. I don’t want that to be discouraging! At one point, I was leading a minimum of 1 meeting per month with between 6 and 12 people in attendance. I was confident in the material, I was prepared, the group is a great group. But physically, things happen to my body that I can mitigate, but can’t totally control. Just acknowledging that is so, so powerful for me. So, ok, I’m going to give this talk, and the VP is probably going to ask me something, and my face is going to get a bit red and I’m going to feel hot or uncomfortable, but if she asks a question I can’t answer, I’ll get the answer and get back to her later. And if she asks a question I CAN answer, then all the better.

      I once got to a presentation and realized that not only were my slide notes completely out of order, there were also pages missing. Earlier in my career, that would have been a run-to-the-bathroom-to-freak-out moment. Instead, yes, I started to feel those panic feelings, and then I asked everyone to bear with me, and I apologized, and someone made a lighthearted joke about it, and we got on with things. Did I possibly miss a few details that were in my notes? Probably! Did I still get across all the messages I needed to get across? Yes I did.

      At the end of the day, we’re all colleagues, we’re here to cheer each other on. Very few people (in functional work environments) want to see their coworkers fail.

      Also, read a LOT of AAM, and get some management books from the library. Knowledge is power! A lot of people fail to realize that management and leadership are skills that need to be developed. Just because you’re great at your job doesn’t mean you’re prepared to manage people. And that’s ok! I got thrown into the deep end and I struggled, a lot. I had a great boss who I could ask for help. I asked other people in management/leadership positions for advice. I did some courses. I read books.

      People have started to notice that you’re struggling (and those people suck a little bit if they only offered observations and no advice, by the way). Honestly, the most important piece of advice I would give you is to remember that, if your workplace is functional, it’s safe to assume that everyone wants to see you succeed. Lean on that. Don’t be afraid to make mistakes, don’t be afraid to ask for help. Do you know why you got promoted? Ask your boss! Get those kudos, those pats on the back.

      IF you decide that you might want to try therapy again, rest assured that there is such a thing as a mismatch between therapist and patient. It might just have been a bad fit. I’m not saying that’s definitely how you need to proceed, but I know people who had to work through a therapist or two before finding someone who really helped them. Sometimes you have to experience what DOESN’T work before you realize what you need.

      Good luck!

  57. CMarion*

    Was there ever an update on the letter about Drew, the employee who used a wheelchair and claimed to be paralysed despite being able to walk? I saw a video about individuals who were like Drew and now I can’t stop thinking about that letter and am so curious. Thank you!

  58. Ugh, Decisions*

    My last employer was acquired at the beginning of the year and I have been looking for a job.

    The good – I received an offer yesterday for a company that I would love to work for/with.
    The bad – the pay is pretty far below market (at least $40k below), they would want me to start next week (I had hoped to take a little time to visit family before starting), and the commute would be not wonderful but pretty typical for the area (at least 45 mins – 1 hr each way in super heavy traffic)
    The other – I have “final” round interviews with 3 other companies scheduled for next week

    Financially, I can hold out in the hopes one of the others pan out but would be in a tight situation if one of them didn’t.

    I don’t know what to do!!!!

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Honestly unless there is something so fantastical about this company that you simply HAVE to work for them, this sounds pretty awful. If you do think that you still want to pursue this despite all of the negatives, you should negotiate salary and your start date. They may want you to start next week, but that doesn’t mean you have to (sounds a little nuts to me considering it’s Friday and next week is only a few days away), don’t be afraid to ask for what you want. And if they want you sooo badly that they couldn’t possibly let you start in one-two weeks, then that should maybe give you some more negotiating power in salary, or maybe allowing you to take time off in the near future to visit family.

      Either way, my reaction is to walk away from this.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Agreed with this– in my experience, the urgency in getting you in the door usually points to chaos.

        1. Ugh, Decisions*

          I understand the urgency, the person currently in the position is transitioning out as of June 1 so they’re hoping for some overlap.

          Y’all are right though, I should probably try negotiating, I just can’t imagine that the negotiation would lead us closer given the huge gap between market and their pay practices.

      2. Mockingjay*

        Salary-wise, will that $40,000 below market rate be a deep cut which will take you years to regain, or are you underpaid at present job so the offered rate is similar to what you make now?

        If the former, be sure you can live on it. If the offering company needs you urgently, you might be able to negotiate for more.

    2. WellRed*

      You have three other interviews scheduled. Three! unless this employer is sublime (the rush makes me think not) and you can handle the crap pay, I’d pass.

    3. AeroEngineer*

      Your offer sounds a lot like my offer which lead into the job I have now. I can say that ignoring the type of work done, I wish I had had other options, as the low pay is slowly (quickly) making me bitter, especially as the higher level people are making A LOT. I was also asked to start ASAP, and the company I have found to be chaotic and the time management is not very good across the board. There are a number of other reasons I am looking to move on after a short time, but these are big ones. The company looks real good externally, but now that I am inside, I just want to run away.

      And on top of the low salary (40k lower is a lot of money) you would also have a rough commute. I have found that these things compound on each other, that if it is just one negative it is doable, but add more smaller ones and soon they add up to a really bad situation. I unfortunately found this out the hard way.

      My gut would be to walk away.

  59. flyover*

    There’s a guy in my office who lacks some skills that would generally be important for someone in his position and doesn’t seem to have the ability or motivation to acquire them on his own. The last time he made a mess, I had to clean it up and AFAIK, he experienced no consequences. It’s started to occur to me that helplessly saying you can’t do something seems like a way to avoid onerous tasks. (At least it may be here –other workplaces wouldn’t put up with it.) Is this a good sign that it’s time to move on?

    1. EB*

      If you’re in similar roles and you’re taking on things that he should be able to do (and that are in his job description), I say yes. I’m a graphic designer and recently had to vectorize a coworker’s logo when it should have been created that way in the first place– it’s not the first time this has happened. And I’m noticing a startling pattern that I’m now relied on to come in and correct his work when he works on large projects like this– and everyone is just happy I can fix it and doesn’t see the larger issue at play here AT ALL, apparently. And I’ve clearly verbalized this to my boss every time. Oy.

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      This personally wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me (at least with my limited knowledge), but if it is for you, why not start looking?

    3. flyover*

      Thanks for the responses. Part of the concern is that spending too much time in an environment like this could lead to a skewed sense of normal that would be a problem in a more demanding workplace. In general, working with skilled and motivated people is good for professional growth because you learn things from them and sort of push each other to get better. It’s much easier to stagnate if you’re isolated or working with less skilled people.

  60. AnonGD*

    The quickest of rants today that I’m sure you all will relate to. Feel free to add on your related stories!

    So I’m a designer, for the past few years I’ve been the only one, we just hired a second. We should probably have like 5-6 at least. We have a communications team that has been taking over certain small design projects for themselves with the results you might expect– mostly not great, but honestly sometimes pretty decent! Until we can hire more designers the general plan has been to actively educate and provide guidelines to those interested in taking on the extra design work… the issue is that the head of communications has been conspicuously absent in all the planning surrounding this for the past year so we’ve been floundering.

    Well, we finally got him in a meeting this morning and just had a gentle brainstorming session surrounding how to tackle this issue like we haven’t had this meeting five times over the last year. And I very politely asked him what his experience had been at his previous organization and if there were any takeaways that we might be able to use here.

    His big suggestion– that the creative staff actively educate and provide guidelines to his communications staff. GREAT IDEA, ha. Needless to say, everyone was on board with that since it’s been the plan all along that we’ve been desperately trying to get him involved in.

    So here’s hoping that now that the big idea “came from” the boss that we’ll have some real enforcement.

    TGIF!

    1. zora*

      Ha, well done!! I had a similar situation today where i was able to use sentences phrased as questions to maneuver someone above me into suggesting the outcome I wanted. I feel sneaky like a fox!! Happy Friday!!

  61. Sarah*

    My first professional job is rather quiet, we don’t answer phones or anything I find it hard to concentrate in silence and mentioned this casually to my manager, so she suggested I listen to podcasts with headphones while I work. I was not aware this was an option. Do many people do this? Are there any disadvantages to doing this?

    I don’t listen to many podcasts only Welcome to Night Vale and the others released by the same people such as Alice isn’t dead. But I’m open to suggestions of fiction or non-fiction podcasts. Any recommendations?

    Alison, if this is better posted on the open thread on the weekend let me know.

    1. Anon Today*

      Many of my co-workers listen to music or podcasts while they work. I can’t do that myself as I’m unable to concentrate properly. But, I think it’s pretty common to do that.

    2. frostipaws*

      The Classic Tales Podcast is one of my favorites, although, depending on what I’m doing, I don’t always catch the entire episode and must listen again. It’s great for drowning out the silliness and distraction in the office! Others I like are The Art of Charm, The Jordan Harbinger Show, Ken Rudin’s Political Junkie, Kwik Brain, The Tapping Solution, and Ask a Manager of course! Another option is MyNoise available at https://mynoise.net.

    3. Susan Sto Helit*

      Criminal is an interesting podcast, though the episodes are short. You have a lot of them to catch up on though!

      Have you considered audiobooks, also? Music is also an option – I like Einaudi when I want to concentrate and block out other distractions.

      (I listen to both podcasts and audiobooks when I’m working on something that isn’t intellectually stimulating enough by itself. You just switch them off whenever you get to something that requires full attention. I prefer over-ear headphones so it’s clear to my colleagues that I can’t hear if they speak to me, but you might prefer earbuds if you want to leave one ear free.)

    4. Pollygrammer*

      Headphones are perfectly fine in many jobs. I love podcasts (Stuff You Should Know, LeVar Burton Reads, The Moth, several more) but I limit myself to music at work unless I’m doing something totally mindless like stuffing envelopes. I just find podcasts or audio books too distracting.

      Sometimes when I have headphones in I’m listening to crickets or ocean waves on my white noise app :)

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      I don’t do podcasts, but I do listen to audiobooks at work. Less now that my role has changed, as I have to write/read more, and I can’t really do that while also listening to a book. It’s definitely a thing that’s fine in a lot of workplaces (especially if your manager okayed it), and it was a HUGE perk of my old role.

    6. Nessun*

      I work in an extremely quiet office too, and headphones with music or podcasts really do make it a better work environment for me. I prefer to listen to podcasts that are more informational and less fiction, since they’re interesting but I’m less invested, if that makes sense. Ones I choose are Under the Influence or White Coat, Black Art (which are CBC podcasts – Canadian content). (I love WtNV, but I don’t listen at work because I find I slow down what I’m doing in order to contemplate what I’m hearing from Cecil!)

      I’d love to hear other people’s recommendations too!

    7. EB*

      I was shocked reading this. I wouldn’t be able to survive if I couldn’t listen to music or podcasts at work! So there’s one perspective for you haha. I’m a designer so it’s possible for me to listen and work– when I’m writing emails I have to shut them off. I’m subscribed to a ridiculous number of podcasts BUT I’ll just suggest a current favorite. If you loved the Queer Eye reboot “Getting Curious with Jonathan Van Ness” is hilarious but informative (at times). I listen to a lot of serious stuff so it’s been a refreshing change of pace.

    8. Judy (since 2010)*

      Just an aside, I don’t work with podcasts, I find them too distracting. I do have a set of classical piano albums that I listen to when I can’t handle the silence or the noise. I personally need instrumental only music when I’m using music to boost my concentration.

    10. Totally Minnie*

      If you’re going to listen to podcasts or audiobooks at work, I would suggest using earbuds, and leaving one out. That way, you’ll still be able to hear if a colleague is approaching to talk to you.

      1. Windchime*

        Ugh, I get annoyed when people do this. I can hear the “spsss pssss ssssppsss” of talking through the dangling earbud. Just use both earbuds and, if hearing people is important don’t turn it super loud.

    11. brightbetween*

      I second LeVar Burton Reads. Also, 99% Invisible, This American Life, and Thinking Sideways and In the Dark if you’re okay with true crime.
      You also might want to check with your local library to see if they have downloadable audiobooks. Most libraries use a service like Overdrive or Cloud Library to provide audiobooks that you can borrow.

    13. BRR*

      I think the key thing is to do what works for you. Sometimes if I have to focus I can’t do podcasts. Overall I’ll switch between podcasts, music (classical or pop), stand up comedy albums, NPR, tv shows that I’ve seen a million times, and sometimes good ole fashioned white noise.

    14. periwinkle*

      I also find it difficult to concentrate in quiet rooms. However, I would find podcasts too distracting because I’d be, well, paying attention to the podcast. Especially WTNV! Instead, I rely on either instrumental music or sound generators.

      Websites: My company blocks streaming music but thankfully allows me to access Noisli. This site allows you to mix together various sounds like rain, thunder, whirring fan, coffee shop sounds, and some others. My standard mix is the coffee shop with rain and thunder in the background. At home I also use the Coffitivity website, which has several coffee shop atmospheres available (alas, it’s blocked at work).

      Phone apps: I’ve got a half dozen noise generating apps installed! On my iPhone, SleepStream2 Pro gets the most use by a huge margin; I also enjoy Rain Rain and the app version of Coffitivity. We can’t stream music on the corporate network and reception is too poor for phone streaming, but as a Pandora subscriber I can download and listen to three stations in offline mode. That’s handy.

    15. doogie*

      Not a podcast, but I use noisli.com to set some background noise when things are too quiet. You can play different types of ambient noise (cafe sounds, rain, thunder) and their recordings are pretty high quality (unlike some sound machines out there). I alternate between that and music to help stay focused.

    16. Matilda the Hun*

      I like the Nerdist podcast. They’ve got hundreds, and you can just go backwards and find people (celebrities and creative types) that you like or want to know more about!

      Doug Loves Movies is always fun, too. Sometimes he gets a surprising group of people together and you just feel like dying from laughter. (The Chris Evans episodes are always a riot!) Bonus: you learn a lot about movies!

  62. DouDouPaille*

    Just came here to vent about my bad boss. Things she has done just this week:
    1) On a personal phone call, refused to hire a Hispanic worker to do some small domestic job “because those people steal”
    2) Complained non-stop about her bladder problems (TMI TMI)
    3) Sang BADLY along with the radio, at the top of her lungs
    4) Got her feelings hurt when I didn’t respond immediately to a random comment (not a question) shouted from her office, because I WAS ABSORBED IN MY WORK
    5) Started at least 50% of her sentences with the phrase “I hate…”
    6) Complained that every female employee in our department is trying to “get in her in trouble” and are all “backstabbers” (paranoid much?)
    7) Asked me for the umpteenth time if I was pregnant when I complained that I felt nauseous (I am 48 and have recurring stomach problems, so no, pregnancy is not likely)
    8) Complained how hard her life is as a single mother, even though she makes mid-six figures and her mother lives with her and provides free childcare and taxi service for her child
    I could go on, but I really need to jumpstartthat job search….

    1. Lily Rowan*

      I am so sorry!

      But this is just what I needed to read at this moment, because I’m about to have a meeting with someone who thinks I am their bad boss. There are so many worse bosses!!!!!

    3. Kittyfish 76*

      Wow, that’s unfortunate! It’s a shame that people with that kind of attitude get a nice six-figure salary, while someone with a good attitude can really use that kind of job. I wish you luck in the job search.

  63. spegasi*

    Because of several reasons it is very likely there will be all new bosses by the end of the year. I have an irrational fear that the boss I have right now might be the best one I will ever have. How do I deal with the dread I feel about having to adapt to a new boss that will inevitably come?

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Just remember that it is not permanent. Your current boss is on their way out and your new boss will be your boss for only a finite number of days. You might leave or win the lottery or move or whatnot and they might also.

  64. The Commoner*

    Just need to vent to those who might understand best – Today is one of those days that Loud Lorraine is just too much. It’s not just the raw onions, it’s the constant loud talking to my cube neighbor. Thank heavens for ear buds. And no, I do not have enough social capital to say something. Quite honestly LL’s supervisor won’t deal with it, so here we are stuck.

    To all of you out there with a LL – may your ear buds never fail you.

  65. AnonyMouse*

    I feel like I’m never on time for the open thread, but I’m hoping someone will bear with the length of this and read this story from earlier this week because I feel like I need reassurance that I’m not crazy and didn’t do something wrong!

    I had an unsettling experience during the negotiation phase of a job offer this week. About three weeks ago I had an interview for a position that I thought went really well (it would have been a lateral move for me, but was located in the geographic area I want to be living in). I was told at the end of the interview that I would hear from the office in about a week. A week goes by, and the hiring manager reaches out to me letting me know that their process has been delayed another week. I asked at that point for them to let me know if they needed any further information or references from me, because I’d be happy to provide them. He requested my references after that, and called them early the next week. After contacting my references, I was offered the job last week.

    During the offer discussion, I asked a few questions about things that came up in the conversation. The first was for more information about their formal probation period (I had never been under a formal probation in a previous job, and I shared this with him as the reason I wanted more information about how this worked). The second was about their tiered system for the position (the organization had different levels for the position, such as “junior,” “senior,” etc). Again, this isn’t something that exists in my current position, so I wanted to better understand how advancement in this system works. I knew once he got to the salary discussion that I wanted to negotiate for more pay, but I asked him if I could think over everything we discussed and if we could set up a time to touch base and continue our conversation in a few days (I’ll be honest, I got nervous and wanted to think through how I would approach the conversation about salary. I had never negotiated salary before). He responded favorably to this and agreed to discuss more in a few days.

    We arranged a time to talk about two business days later. I started the conversation by saying that I was still very interested in the position, but that I wanted to see if there was flexibility in two areas- salary and start date. To be clear I was only asking for an additional $500 (they offered me a number like $45,500, and I asked if they could come closer to $46,000) and an extra weekend to move (they wanted me to start on a non-Monday, and I asked to start the following Monday). He seemed annoyed that I was negotiating, then told me he’d check with HR and would get back to me later on that day.

    He called me later on in the day to let me know that they could not accommodate my requests and that the original offer stood. This is where things got weird. He then proceeded to tell me that he was “becoming concerned about whether or not I was still a good fit for the position.” His reasons for this were the following:

    – He was concerned that I hadn’t accepted the offer yet, and was concerned that I was continuing to delay their process because they need someone to start as soon as possible
    – He was concerned that during the original offer conversation, he had to explain things at length that he had never explained to a candidate before (referring to my questions about the probation period and tiered employment system)
    – He said that my question about advancing through the tiered employment system made it sound like I didn’t want to stay there long (in fact, I asked these questions because I was hoping it would convey that I wanted to stay there a while and move up through their system)
    – He said that I didn’t seem as excited about the position as he would have expected me to be

    I was caught off guard to say the least! I tried my best to address each of his concerns in the moment, reiterating my interest and explaining why I asked the questions I did, but this didn’t seem to change his tone or concerns. The conversation ended with the hiring manager reminding me the offer still stood (ironically, he didn’t sound excited about it anymore!) and that I needed to say yes or no by the end of the day.

    The way the conversation panned out gave me some serious concerns about what this office is like, especially since the tone shifted drastically from the way conversations previously went the second I negotiated the offer. I thought it over for a few hours and then decided to go with my gut and decline the offer. It was really disappointing, because I was hopeful about this position and it feels like I have to start over from scratch now with my job search.

    Did I do something incorrectly in this process? I was not expecting such a negative response to a negotiation, and it makes me afraid to ask questions or negotiate an offer in the future.

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      Dude, these sound like totally reasonable questions to me. You asked them at an appropriate time, and then they made you an offer. As for the enthusiasm–what did he want, for you to start crying tears of joy over the phone? “Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!”

      What he really wanted was for you to not negotiate, which is both unrealistic and pretty crappy.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        This was among the (many) reasons I decided to decline. I feel like I handled all conversations professionally. You are right, I wasn’t crying tears of joy or screaming in excitement (because I don’t consider those professional reactions). I was trying to express my excitement for the position be consistently reiterating my interest in the position verbally. But apparently that didn’t come across…

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      All of your questions seem completely reasonable and important. The fact that your would-be boss bristled at the idea that you might want to gather as much information as possible for something as critical as accepting a new job would be a red flag to me. At a minimum, it might signal to me that our work styles are incompatible. (If you have questions about a project or assignment, will he be mad if you ask them? If you don’t ask the questions, will he be mad when you proceed in a way that might be different from exactly what he wanted?)

      It also concerns me that he’s putting the business needs (“We need someone to start now”) on your shoulders. You have every right to take more than “by the end of the day” to think over an offer, especially one that is lower than you wanted.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        I had many reasons for declining, but you hit the nail on the head over one of them being an indication that questions may not be welcome in this environment.

    3. Pollygrammer*

      Most of your questions seem totally innocuous. I’ll be honest, though, in-depth questions from a candidate about a probation period would be just a little concerning to me, in a sense that I might wonder if they are genuinely worried that something would come up during the probation period. It’s really better to project total nonchalant confidence that of course nothing could cause a problem in the first 6 months.

      It’s also unfortunately going to be true that the lower level a position is in an organization, the less they’re going to expect in-depth questions and delays in acceptance.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        To clarify the probation questions that I asked, the main thing I wanted to know was if I was restricted from using certain benefits during that time (i.e. vacation/sick time). I knew a few people who had a probation period like that. And that’s basically exactly how I phrased the question (with the added part I mentioned above about how I had never had a formal probation period in a previous/current position). The irony is that this was basically my only question, the hiring manager was the one who discussed it more at length than I needed for them to (explaining the meetings/paperwork we’d have to fill out during this time).

    4. Let's Talk About Splett*

      I guess it would depend on what kind of questions were asked about probation and the junior/senior designations. If you just asked a couple of things like, “Am I eligible for benefits during probation?” than he’s being overly critical. If you wanted in-depth explanation as to what the probation period is or the junior/senior thing, I can see why he might get frustrated since these are actually pretty standard things in the working world.

    5. Murphy*

      From what I’m hearing, your questions sound completely reasonable.

      And a request to move the start date by a few days? That really shouldn’t be a big deal at all. It’s not like you asked to move it back weeks or months.

    6. CAA*

      The problem here is that you had multiple questions and issues and you dribbled them out over the course of two phone meetings instead of bringing them all up at once. Also, the concerns you raised in the first meeting seem less important than the ones you brought up later. This is a “but what about …” style that comes across as if you don’t really want the job and are trying to talk yourself into taking it anyway, which is exactly what the hiring manager meant when he said he was concerned about you not being a good fit any more. I know you didn’t mean it that way, but I hope it’s helpful to think about how this can be perceived from the other side.

      For the future, I’d suggest asking things about probation and advancement during the interview phase when you’re given a chance to ask your own questions. If you also have an HR interview, you can also ask these questions and anything about benefits then.

      When you get an offer, it’s fine to ask for a couple of days to think it over and promise to get back to them by a specific date and then negotiate at that time. Any questions you ask in that first call should be short and should be about what’s in the actual offer, not general company policies or job duties that you didn’t ask about before.

      1. EB*

        I see your point about multiple questions/issues happening over multiple phone calls– but if you do have a question that comes up after the interview phase and before an offer, do you recommend reaching out prior to the offer or waiting until you have a single follow-up phone call and then asking before/after salary negotiations?

        I ask because it seems like AnonyMouse was applying for a more junior role where they may not be familiar with something as common as probation (which to be fair, is handled differently depending on the org) and it’s possible they may not have realized they would have a probationary period until they received an offer.

        1. CAA*

          It depends on what the question is. Would you withdraw your candidacy if the answer wasn’t what you wanted to hear? If not, then I think it’s better wait until you have an offer and have had a chance to think it over and then ask all your questions and request all your changes at once.

      2. Not a Real Giraffe*

        I heartily disagree. You may not know about those things until the offer comes through. You may not have realized you had questions about those things until the offer stage. The interview process should be a two-way street. I just went though my own interview/offer stage and even after I accepted, the hiring manager asked me many times if there were things she could answer for me or clarify for me. A good hiring manager wants to make sure you have all the data you need to make an informed decision.

      3. AnonyMouse*

        I appreciate your input. The probation first came up during the offer, so I didn’t think to ask about it then. It’s possible I may have “technically” been on probation at first in my current role, but we had an interim director who never said anything about it so that’s why I assumed I wasn’t under one. I think in the future I will just not ask questions about this if it comes up since it seems like this may have been the biggest red flag I gave off. And I understand that’s completely on me.

        2. CAA*

          It’s a little different if the offer call is the first time you’re hearing about a probationary period, and I can understand why you might have asked something about it. I do think you should have either waited on that or brought up the salary and start date in the same conversation though. If that’s not your style, then you and the hiring manager could be right that this position would not be a good fit going forward. It sounds like he just prefers a different style of communication than you do.

        3. zora*

          No, please don’t take this as a hard and fast lesson. This is not necessarily true. I don’t think it’s AT ALL unreasonable to ask questions about how their probation period works at any point in the process!!! Different companies do probation differently, it is entirely reasonable to ask them to flesh that out a little bit so that you understand the job you are accepting!!

      4. Delphine*

        Any questions you ask in that first call should be short and should be about what’s in the actual offer, not general company policies or job duties that you didn’t ask about before.

        Why?

        1. CAA*

          Because an offer call is short and sweet – 10 minutes or less – and I don’t have time right then for the questions you didn’t ask during interviews. If I’m making an offer to you, by then you’ve had multiple opportunities to do your due diligence about the work and we’ve already discussed what salary you’re expecting and you’ve had a meeting with HR to learn about our benefits and security clearance requirements. I’m sure that our offer meets your expectations, or else I’ve explained to you in advance why your expectations are out of line with what we can offer. I always ask candidates to wait for the written offer I’m sending out by overnight mail, think it over, and then get back to me within three business days. If you still have questions after seeing the written offer, then I’m willing to schedule a call and answer them for you. Once I’ve done that, I do expect an answer though, and I would be put off by a round of negotiating starting at that point.

          1. slick ric flair*

            There are different norms to how these situations go – your process sounds entirely different than the process of any job offer I have gone through in my career.

        2. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

          Yeah, I disagree with that. I extend a lot of offers, and I want a candidate to ask as many questions as they need. It’s a two-way street. They need to make the best decisions for themselves (happy employees = productive workplace).

          I do (kind of) agree that pushing the salary negotiations into a 2nd phone call would be a little out of step. Especially since OP knew they wanted to negotiate. But it’s not unheard of. It happens, people think about things and have other considerations come up when they talk to their families and when they look at the benefits offerings. It’s not an indication that a candidate doesn’t want the job.

      5. BRR*

        I do think one phone call would have better but I disagree with asking about probation, advancement, and benefits (to HR or anybody) during the interview. I would be turned off by someone who asked about advancement in an interview. You should be able to ask about benefits but for whatever stupid reason that’s usually a question for the offer stage.

        1. CAA*

          I’m surprised that you’d be turned off by people asking about advancement in an interview. I find that to be a pretty standard topic, and always talk about career paths, especially at the entry level. Then I know our HR guy ends up repeating that in his interview. I want people to have the right expectations about when they could be promoted, get a raise, or do an internal transfer before we hire them so I don’t have to have hard conversations later on.

          We also talk about benefits and salary in the first phone interviews though, so apparently we’re pretty atypical.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Hmm, I want to know if it’s a company with which I can grow. So I do ask about career advancement in the company, unless it’s a tiny place and/or I’m fairly sure it’s not relevant to the job.

          Lately, I’ve had more and more interviewers mention benefits before I do. They used to not bring it up at all, but I think employers are starting to recognize that it’s a part of overall compensation candidates want to consider before the offer stage. If they discuss benefits on the career page of their website, I consider that a free pass to ask about them.

      6. Lunita*

        I agree with you. I think based on the description of questions and timelines that the hiring manager might have been annoyed by the asking for additional days before discussing salary, and then only to find that the negotiation was to ask for $500 more, which doesn’t seem like a lot.

        To me, some of those questions might make me pause to think whether the candidate was actually interested or if they were simply trying to stall for more time while waiting on another offer.

    7. Trout 'Waver*

      No, the hiring manager was unreasonable. They would not have gotten more reasonable when you were more in their power. You made the right decision.

      Anyone who tries to punish you for negotiating is showing you exactly what they’re going to be like to work for.

    8. Delphine*

      Those are very, very reasonable questions. I would consider this a red flag, honestly, and I think it’s probably for the best that you declined. If they couldn’t even offer $500 more than their offer and they didn’t like that you were asking questions and being thorough before making a decision…that doesn’t bode well.

    9. WellRed*

      I think your questions were reasonable enough, though I agree it seems a bit dragged out, the hiring manager shouldn’t put his need to get someone in the role quickly on you. However, and I am sure I am in the minority on this, I don’t think trying to negotiate for an extra $500 was worth it. That’s less than $10 a week before taxes.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        This may reveal the type of institution I was applying for, but I was able to look up the salaries of their current employees. I knew that asking for an additional $1000 or more would not fly because it would put me too close to current employees who had been there longer at least 2-3 years. Ironically, I was worried asking for too much would garner a negative reaction! But I’m also a novice negotiator. I think next time I will probably ask for more (most everyone I’ve talked to about this all say I should have asked for more).

    10. zora*

      YOU DID THE RIGHT THING!!!

      Both in asking the questions you asked, and in declining the offer. This dude did you a favor by showing you that he’s unreasonable and not a good manager before you took the job. My boss told me she was impressed by my questions during my interview because it showed that I was MORE interested since I had really specific questions, and that I really think through things, which is what she wanted in the job.

      Before I even finished your post I was saying “Nope. Nope. NOPITYNOPE NOPE GET OUT OF THERE!!!” You did the right thing, keep it up and at some point I have faith you will find a good manager who is happy to have a smart, inquisitive person work for them!

      1. AnonyMouse*

        Thank you! In hindsight I also think it panned out the way it should have. My disappointment is mostly in the fact that I’m going to have to start from scratch in my job search. I hadn’t applied for anything in about a month, so it’s going to be a slow crawl until I am this close to having an offer again :(

  66. Etak*

    Is there any way to prevent a coworker from taking a desk next to mine? the cubicle across from me has been empty for a few weeks and a coworker mentioned a few times that he’d like to move there. The problem is, he REALLY enjoys an audience. He’s not a bad guy but he really needs to be the center of attention. Right now, he’s in a small office down the hall with 3 other coworkers and anytime I’m in there talking to one of them, he immediately jumps in with questions or comments, or even just random things (he frequently starts singing if anyone mentions a song or a singer). Past coworkers who’ve shared this office have mentioned that his loud comments and frequent political outbursts drove her nuts. I’m afraid moving to my larger room with more people around (and several more people who enjoy the sound of their own voice) will just exacerbate this.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I feel ya here. Headphones (even if they’re not on, they signal you’re not listening) – and be slow to respond, really make him work to get your attention, then say “huh?” and seem confused, like you were concentrating. This is how I trained Chatty Chad to leave me alone at work – I just made it not fun to try to get my attention. A few times, smile wanly and say, “Sorry, I really have to concentrate on this right now” and go right back to what you were doing. If possible, don’t look up from the screen when talking to him.

    2. Pollygrammer*

      “You think you like me now, but I’m a total shhh-y librarian quiet-car type to sit near. I don’t think we’d be a good cube-neighbor match.”

    3. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Any chance that when he mentions he’d really like to move there that you can ask him why — what about this spot is appealing to him? If you get an opening that he really really really wants to be more social, you can drop in that your really not social when you’re working and will be using your headphones; is there anything (like a tall potted plant or computer screen) that you can block the line of sight from your desk to this other cube? If he knows you won’t be his audience, he might change his mind.

    5. Argh!*

      Ugh! I am stuck with one of those. If I’m talking to a customer and there’s no “in” for him, he’ll find an ache or pain that he needs to rub or grunt about. He does this in meetings, too, until he realizes nobody will ask what’s wrong. Magically, after a few minutes of being ignored, his back or wrist or whatever is suddenly healed! So so so so annoying!

  67. Oliver*

    Just wanna let off some steam.

    So I’m unemployed right now and looking for a new job. A friend connected me to a company that’s hiring and I’ve been trying set up an interview. The first interview we scheduled was cancelled by the company at 6PM the night before. We rescheduled to today, but I got a phone call literally as I was parking my car saying that they needed to cancel again because someone is out. They’re not willing to have the rest of the team interview me today and schedule the last person for another time or even a Skype call (they want to do a day long onsite where I meet 10 different people). Even after I explained I have a written offer they’re not willing to be flexible in the least. The company hasn’t been around for that long and I’m not applying for a position of extreme value like a surgeon or something.

    I want to withdraw my candidacy but I think that would look petulant and possibly bad for my friend. I’m going to wait for a while and send a polite “thanks for your interest but I’ve decided to pursue another opportunity” note.

    1. Inspector Spacetime*

      They called you to cancel your interview WHILE YOU WERE IN THEIR PARKING LOT? That’s so incredibly rude.

      1. Rick The Dev*

        It doesn’t surprise me. Lots of companies have unreasonably rigid interviewing and hiring processes for skilled or uncommon roles. Then they complain about having a tough time filling the empty jobs.

        I had this happen once a few years back. Company only had 4 slots a week for technical phone interviews. They missed my scheduled interview twice, and they refused to adjust. They didn’t even try to communicate any sort of regret about it. No “we’re sorry we’ve inconvenienced you, but we can only do these times for interviews,” instead they said “these are the time slots and we can’t make exceptions.” Then they got mad when I said I was going to withdraw.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If they are going to keep canceling your interview, I don’t think they can possibly be surprised when you accept an offer elsewhere and withdraw your candidacy. And if they hold that against your friend, there are much bigger issues at play.

  68. Shout out to the LW who was jealous of her attractive employee*

    I was reading through old letters the other day and realized that it’s past one year since you decided to get sober.

    Just wanted to give you a shout out, remind you how proud everyone at AAM is of you and to say we all hope you are going strong and doing great!

    If you can, send in an update to let us know how you are doing now (unless you did after the December one and I missed it). We are all thinking of you. Good luck!

  69. PeakVincent*

    What am I supposed to do at work on my last day if we’ve hired my replacement but she’s not in yet? I don’t want to do any of my work because we discussed her processing things and my supervising, but I also don’t want the image of me on my last day here to be twiddling my thumbs or playing on my phone. My boss confirmed I should wait and let her handle everything in my inbox after her doctor’s appointment—but what do I do in the meantime? Help!

    1. PeakVincent*

      Also, this is the last day of my notice—so over the last two weeks, I’ve been creating extensive policy and procedure documentation and tying up all loose ends. I’m not sure what’s left!

      1. Pollygrammer*

        I think creating SOPs and documentation is about all you need to be doing.

        This may be a weird suggestion, but is there stuff you could print out and leave on the desk for her? That might seem like a more…demonstrable/obvious contribution and it would be more obvious to your boss/coworkers that you really are doing your best to make her onboarding go smoothly.

      2. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Can you do anything housekeeping-like at the desk that she will be taking over? Like, just dust a bit, make sure there are pens/pencils, stapler has staples, a notepad for her to use, post-it notes, drawers are cleaned out of unnecessary stuff…

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      Nobody is going to look down on you for being idle on your last day. Don’t worry.

  70. Retirement Goodbyes*

    My coworker is retiring next week and I’m concerned about saying goodbye, as she seems to be more touchy feely than I am. She has given me birthday and Christmas presents even after I told her it wasn’t necessary and left cards on my desk signed “from your friend.” I enjoyed sharing an office and working with her but I don’t really consider her a friend outside work. We don’t have lunch outside of work events or speak outside of the office. I have gotten her a retirement card and a gift card to a store I know she likes. She likes to make long goodbyes to people going on vacation so I feel like she will expect a big goodbye but I’m just not that person. I don’t want to hurt her feelings but I’d prefer to give her the card and some quick nice words and be done. Does this seem cold?

    1. Kimberlee, no longer Esq*

      Is there a gathering or party that you can give her the stuff at, where she presumably will want to say long words to lots of people? Or even just wait to approach with the gift card until others are, so in general you’re one of several people she’s talking to.

      Have a plan for what you’ll say or do if she mentions wanting to get together outside of work (as this seems like a natural time for her to bring it up). And ultimately, you only have to do it one more time. You can think of all the future vacation goodbyes you won’t have to endure. :)

  71. ALPA*

    Has anyone transitioned out of nonprofit fundraising into something totally different? How did you do it? Anyone gone from fundraising to programs staff?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      This can be a little tough (I’m program staff) bc in some orgs there’s a cultural divide. Most programmatic people have some type of knowledge in the field that they put a lot of stock in, and there’s a perception that fundraisers are “generalists” who don’t really “get” the specifics of the science of what we do. Probably BS as many of us started out with fairly general degrees anyway. Don’t be surprised if you learn program staff are less valued by the org, since they spend money rather than earn money – on our side, it’s perceived that philanthropy staff get higher wages and fast tracked for promotions, while most of us are resigned to staying at the same level for most of our tenure and without a lot of resources/support (true or untrue). I assume everyone believes the grass is greener elsewhere. I have seen people switch by going back to school and getting a new more specific degree. If you’re coming from fundraising you might be better positioned to become a director who oversees a program team?

    2. Ama*

      It probably depends on the org and the level you are at. At my org, it’s pretty standard for entry level and even next level up from entry level to move around if there are open positions elsewhere. We have a lot of programs that development staff are asked to help staff (sometimes explicitly to talk to a donor attendee but often just so they can get more exposure to what we do) so it would be pretty easy for a development staffer who wanted to move into programs to just continue helping with the programs they were interested in and then apply when an appropriate position opened up.

      If you are at an org with a more rigid divide between departments or you are going to try to transition at a management level it would probably be more difficult. I think you’d still want to find a way to get a little exposure to the type of program you want to move into before applying to any positions in that area, whether it’s working internally at your org or volunteering elsewhere.

  72. rumblytumblyweed*

    How do I handle a micromanaging, overly sensitive coworker?

    From my past experience working on teams with account managers and checking with others in the office, the account manager with whom I work is overstepping. Instead of delegating tasks (thus plowing me to create strategies based on my experience/research), she creates strategies/tasks and demands I follow them. This week, I pushed back several times and cited research/experience to back my reasoning. She still would not acquiesce of see things from my perspective. Yesterday, after another round of her insisting I do something her way when metrics/my experience said otherwise, I put my foot down and told her I needed to be able to do the role I was hired to do: strategy and best practices. She proceeded to call our manager to complain about my inappropriate behavior.

    She is not my boss. We are equals. She has driven multiple people out of this department due to her micromanaging and control issues. The manager is apparently aware as directors in other departments have sat the AM down to address her inability to delegate. However, since she is personally close with the manager and unbelievably sensitive, it appears the manager is at a loss at how to address the situation.

    Does anyone have any advice on how to navigate this? I don’t think it’s my place to say “AM is overstepping. This is now how other AMs in this department operate” (even if it is true). My current plan is to address it like “From my understanding, i was hired to do XYZ. However, I’m finding I am unable to do because ABC. Do you have advice on how I can take ownership of XYZ?”

    1. Ama*

      Ugh, I think you might be working with my old coworker. I was only able to get her stop after I went to our manager (we had the same one), and said “It is my understanding that I am in charge of managing X project, but Jane doesn’t like the way I have chosen to handle it and keeps trying to force me to do things her way. Unless something has changed with how you want this project managed I am going to continue to do things my way, but I’m just letting you know in case she complains to you or the director.”

      That sounds a lot better than it played out in real life, as I was nearly in tears at the time because Jane had followed me to my office when we ran into each other in the elevator, yelling at me at how “she was supposed to manage me on this” and refusing to leave until I flat out said “I’m not talking any more about this right now.” The good thing was that my manager had my back and talked to Jane separately to tell her to back off (and then circled back to tell me to let her know if Jane started up again). If Jane’s manager refuses to do the same, I think you should just stick to getting your manager’s agreement that you are in charge of XYZ and then don’t engage with Jane when she starts up again. “Jane, manager says this is my job so I’m going to take care of it, thanks.”

  73. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

    I applied for a job this week that pretty much ticks all my boxes for a dream job. We’ll see if anything comes of it. Wish me luck – I could use it!

  74. CBE*

    SURPRISE! In about 1o days I’ll be moderating a panel at a conference, something I’ve never done before. I’m not the *organizer* I am just acting as moderator on stage for the organizer, who has bowed out due to health problems. I have met some (but not all) of the panelists, but don’t know them well and don’t have contact info for them. It’s unlikely I’ll have much, if any, chance to talk with them before we go onstage. Some are MDs some are RNs. Do I address them all by first name? Or do I need to use titles for the docs and first name for the nurses? (not my preference, but I don’t want to offend anyone.) Any tips or scripts for kindly cutting off someone who is dominating the conversation? Tips in general for moderating a panel discussion?

    1. beanie beans*

      I don’t have any advice for the names or scripts, but just some stuff that I found helpful when I was on a panel:

      1- If you can even do a 15 minute conference call with everyone ahead of time to go over the topic, the plan for the panel, how it will flow, that will help everyone!
      2 – If you can have a few questions for the panel members ahead of time, that can help if the audience doesn’t have questions. And if the panel knows those questions ahead of time it can help them prepare.
      3 – If each panelist is speaking, have someone in the audience who can give them time checks – 2 minute heads up, wrap it up sign (maybe that will help with anyone dominating the speaking time also)
      4 – Maybe if you’re worried one panelist will dominate the questions, have some specific questions ready for each panelist, so you can say, “This next question is for Dr. Horrible”

      Good luck!

      1. CBE*

        I can’t imagine getting everyone in on a conference call ahead of time.
        The organizer has already put together a list of questions and sent it to me and she said the panelists have it too.
        Time checks are a great idea. Will get someone on that.
        Thanks!

        1. fposte*

          In our field, moderating is really low key, and there’d definitely be no advance discussion. Check there’s water for the panelists if you can, do intros (you can ask people to write out/highlight their preferred highlights for you), do or delegate a time warning (the classic version is somebody visible in the front row holding up a big piece of paper with “5” and then “1” for the remaining minutes–it doesn’t disrupt anybody listening but is visible to the speaker), traffic-cop the questions. It’s sometimes nice if you have a chance to manage the questions a little, like if it was a question asked of one panelist but it could apply to the others, you can say something like “This seems like it’s relevant to your work as well. Do you have thoughts on that?” But that’s optional if you’re unsure.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Hmm, this is interesting, because my experience with panels is all first names, but I’m not in healthcare. One thing I definitely would NOT do is use different conventions for the MDs and the nurses. I would think you’d be ok with first names, especially if it’s a sit-down, easy-chairs-and-water-bottles type of panel as opposed to you at a podium and everyone at a long table.

      Are there other panels you can attend before yours happens? If you can get to two of those, even for just a few minutes, let those be your guide. Also, tip: make sure everyone talks. If someone has said very little, address him/her directly and ask a question, even if it’s, “What’s your take on that issue?”

    3. Anon Today*

      Do you have biographies for each panelist? Whatever you decide to call each panelist you should use the same convention (i.e., if you are using Dr. Last Name for the physician you should refer to the other participants by Mr., Ms., Miss. Last Name as well). It might also be worth reading through the Harvard Business Review’s best practices for how to moderate a panel discussion. It has some great information.

      https://hbr.org/2013/05/how-to-moderate-a-panel-like-a

    4. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      No, advice, but many wishes for good luck and a successful panel!

      Signed,
      Someone who will hear next week if her first CFP to be on a panel was accepted for a conference in September

    5. Susan Sto Helit*

      Best tip I can give is check that you have their names, job titles and biography (if you’re introducing them) correct beforehand, and if you’re unsure of how to pronounce any names ask them in advance.

      You should be able to verify most of the information via websearch if you don’t have contact info, and anything else you can probably do in a quick murmur when you’re sitting there and everyone is taking their seats. It’s best to check before you say something incorrect in front of a crowded room and force them to correct you!

  76. Bob the Skull*

    For background: I’m recently diagnosed with adult onset ADHD, and have started on Adderall. I’ve always had issues with not getting distracted during work – with personal things, with other work things, etc. Now, once I start a project I can focus on it and get it done, and often even enjoy doing the work. But I find myself facing a huge struggle with actually starting on a task, be it starting a new project or doing a tiny change in an existing one. I know the work will be easy and quick and yet I can’t even bring myself to open the files and do it sometimes.

    Suggestions on how I might be able to motivate myself to just start? My list of things to do is getting longer and longer and I’m getting farther and farther behind. Deadlines are the only things that have been motivating me.

    1. OtterB*

      I have this issue too (getting started). Things that often help me:

      1. Making a list of no more than three key things I want to accomplish during the day. Then for each I add a few steps for each that are as specific as possible (e.g. what I want to accomplish might be “mail out report” and specific steps are things like update mailing list with recent member changes and find last year’s email for the report.)

      2. Pomodoro method or some equivalent of it. This is where you work steadily for x minutes and then take a break for y minutes. So, 20 minutes on and 5 off, or whatever works for you.

      1. mediumofballpoint*

        Seconding Pomodoro. It was the only way I got my dissertation written. Good days I could work for 45 minutes at a stretch, bad days I was working for 5 minutes and taking 10 minute breaks. But even that little bit was better than nothing and the sustained progress and momentum helps a lot.

        Basically, you’re looking for anything that makes approaching a given task less overwhelming. If you can figure out what overwhelms/intimidates/discourages you, you’re halfway to a solution. Good luck!

    2. fposte*

      For me the issue is transitions. The blank page of possibility stops me in my tracks. So: I don’t wait until I’ve finished one task to decide what the next one is but instead have a list that I work from that got created either the day before or first thing. And then I start thinking about and visualizing how I’ll do the next task in ridiculously teeny baby steps (like, if I’m switching from document work to emails I’ll think about changing programs and opening up an email) before I start; either it’s while I’m getting close to the end of Task A or when I get up to go to the water fountain or whatever when I’m done.

      Basically, I need to be mentally on the new task before I’m starting it in IRL–no gaps, no surprises.

    3. Pollygrammer*

      I like preparing myself to start a new task with a little ritual of some sort. I’m going to get up, get a cup of coffee, and when I sit down again I will start this project. I’ll walk a loop around the hallway and when I get back to the office I’ll start. Anything I can to sort of build momentum.

    4. Boy oh boy*

      I struggle with this due to anxiety. I have a flow chart drawn out that I refer to when I need to start something.

      1. Get physically comfortable – drink, toilet, snack, temperature, white noise, sitting/standing comfortably etc. so I have less reasons to interrupt my work. Minimise distractions (eg put your phone on silent in a drawer and close un-needed files).

      2. Select one thing from your to-do list. Ideally it should be the most urgent thing, but if you are truly paralysed by the urgent task, select anything at all. The important thing is to do something.

      3. Break it down into the tiniest possible steps. eg. Open emails. Find email X. Get reference number from email. Find Wakeem’s number. Dial Wakeem. Say hello to Wakeem and ask for the llama report on Reference number… etc.

      4. Do the steps. If you really can’t do anything, take five minutes only to walk/get water and then come back to your list and try again.

      Hopefully, once you get over the hurdle of starting doing something, you can then move on to the most urgent things. Good luck!

    5. Admin of Sys*

      Ooh, I sympathize, Executive dysfunction is a pain. What works for me is (assuming you don’t hate lists) : make a to-do list each morning or night before, and commit to going down the list in order – and make the first few things on the list things you’re going to do anyway . So: Tuesday morning 1) get coffee, 2) check email, 3) open Llama breeding project and finish the outline, 4) continue working on llama breeding until 10a coffee refill, etc. That way, you don’t have to ‘start’ exactly, because you’re going to definitely get coffee, and then you’re just continuing.
      Alternately, if you do hate sequential lists, I find it can be helpful to have start points that are immensely specific. So, it’s not 10a ‘work on llama breeding’, it’s 10a ‘open the llama breeding timeline and calculate the next 4 highest weeks crias are expected’. And then, once I’m working on llama breeding timelines, I can just keep going.

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      I set a timer. I know it sounds odd, but I basically tell myself I will just start and work for 15 minutes on the task. By the time, I have enough done that the blank page no longer looks scary.

    7. Mephyle*

      In conjunction with the above, banish the idea of finding “motivation”. Find your trick, whether it’s Pomodoro, breaking it down into steps and just starting with the first one, finding your ritual, or whatever works. Then don’t try to be motivated, just start anyway even if you’re not motivated.

  77. allthearts*

    Ahhhh. Work drama!

    So, I have two part-time jobs in the arts. The first is a second-in-command position (grant funded, hence part-time) at Org A. The second is a Box Office Manager job at Org B. For context, started as box office associate for supplemental income and was promoted after about a year when the manager job opened up. The marketing department in Org B USED to be a Marketing Director and a Marketing Manager. Due to some financial instability, Marketing Director was laid off about a month ago. I have experience (from Org A and others) in that realm, so I started being included in marketing meetings with Marketing Manger and Upper Management and have taken over some basic functions of that. Now Marketing Manager–who is the person who actually designed/implemented like 90% of marketing stuff–is leaving, unexpectedly. The marketing department is now myself and Upper Management–I feel like I’m QUALIFIED to take over most of the marketing (with the exception of the more intricate design work), but I care way more about Org A and don’t want extra hours at Org B. I’ve given my full resume to Org B Upper Management and they said they’ll look at how to best utilize me and my skills, and that that’s probably not box office (yay!), but everything is very up in the air right now.

    I know that if I start doing more higher-level work, I’ll ask for fewer hours staffing the box office (one or two days a week down from four?) and maybe generally more flexible hours (since I won’t be tied to a front desk anymore), but I’m hoping it wouldn’t be considered out of sorts to also ask for higher hourly pay, even though they’ve been very up front about financial instability, because I’d be taking on significantly more impactful work.

    Partially I needed to share that somewhere, but also–has anyone navigated promotions/raises during restructuring? Any advice? And if they want me to move to full time, any advice on navigating saying no while still keeping myself in their good graces? I need the income from Org B to supplement my work at Org A, at least for the next year and a half (Org A is in a very long process of transitioning me to full-time), but Org A is more important/meaningful work to me and I want to maintain the bandwidth to do the work I’m doing there.

    (If anyone’s curious about timing, right now I’m at 28 hours at Org B, but a lot of that is quiet, and 10-20 hours at Org A, all very packed. I regularly work over 40 hours/week, but nothing crazy.)

    1. Barb*

      Just be upfront that you also work at org A and are unable to change your commitment to them (can’t do anything that would interfere with that role) so they aren’t surprised by that, and you’re also not emphasizing that you don’t like org B or not. You’re just stating that upfront, you have limited time so those are the parameters. And if your stress and responsibility increase, of course that’s a higher paying role.

  78. Phoenix Programmer*

    A manager I work closely with has put in his notice. If our manager asks me to take on this role in addition to my own (real possibility) what do people think is a reasonable raise amount to all for. I am thinking 27% which would be just under half of his salary.

    1. CAA*

      It totally depends on the going market rate for a position that does whatever part of your current job would be left plus whatever part of his job you’d take on. If you’re not a manager right now, and as a result of this promotion you would become a manager (of people, not projects or stuff), then 27% might be o.k; otherwise, it’s probably too high. Try to do some salary research on the new position you are envisioning before you ask for that much.

  79. Anon for today*

    My department is being moved to another floor and swapping areas with another department. I’m not thrilled but these things happen. However, we are not allowed to go look at the other department’s area (at all), whilst the other department has created a committee that has been coming down and looking through our offices to the point of commenting in a proprietary way on our office decor as though they will get to have their pick of anything currently in our offices. This isn’t limited to furniture (which was purchased by our department!), as a person from the other department barged into my office whilst I was working and started talking about some of my personal decor, including some of my office plants.

    I’m trying to be generous and think that this person was just overcome by the awkwardness and made a bad decision about how to try to defuse it, but it really did sound like they thought they’d have the option to pick through my possessions. I’m still angry about it. Just venting.

    2. Susan Sto Helit*

      Are you able to ask your department head about this at all. I might phrase it in a ‘do you know how the move is going to be handled yet? Because I’m getting the impression that [x] department believes we’re going to be leaving everything here when we move – is that the case?’ type manner.

      1. Anon for today*

        That’s a good idea–I mentioned it, somewhat angrily, to my manager but our department head probably hasn’t heard about how the other department’s “committee” has been acting.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      Could you pre-emptively box up your personal stuff for the move? Maybe put a label on the box with your name, or “Anon for today’s Personal Effects”, so that they’re more clearly not up-for-grabs. You’ll have to pack them up eventually, I’m assuming, and this might prevent that weird, rude proprietary thing the other committee is doing.

      1. Anon for today*

        Well, we found out recently that it likely won’t happen for six months or so as opposed to next month, so I have some time. I might stick masking tape with my name on it on the bottom of a bunch of my stuff though, just in case. We’re not being encouraged to pre-emptively pack up, though, as we don’t know for sure when it’s going to happen and it could be disruptive for the population we serve.

  80. nailed second interview!*

    So last Friday I had a great second interview, sent my salary considerations via email by the end of the day, and … crickets. There was no defined position to fill, and no defined timelines. I don’t want to be pushy but also I want to be pushy! Is it too soon to follow up to ask about next steps?

    1. fposte*

      When you say “No defined timelines” does that mean that was specifically about this next step? Because if so, that’s a clear “we’ll get to you when we get to you” message, IMHO, and I definitely wouldn’t ask after a week. Even if it wasn’t, I’d probably give it another week before asking given the “no timeline” overall framing.

  81. Reneged promotion/raise update*

    A couple weeks ago I posted about getting my raise/promotion reneged. I was originally supposed to be promoted effective January 1st. It kept getting postponed and postponed. Then finally a month or so ago I got my official raise and promotion in writing. The day before I was going to get my first paycheck with the promotion, my boss (3rd in rank in the org) told me he “wasn’t authorized” to give me the raise. My paycheck would reflect the raise, but then my next paycheck would be lower to retroactively maintain my previous salary.

    I slept on it for a few days and then gave me 2 weeks notice. I was magnanimous af when I gave my notice. I talked about how much I learned in my time at the org (4 years) and how much I appreciated that. What killed me is my boss didn’t say any sort of “thank you for your 4 years of work” or anything like that. Then on my last day he didn’t give me any sort of goodbye or thank you. He pretty much started acting like I had already left a few days after I gave my notice.

    Anyway, I’m SO glad I left. My health is already way better. I do admit though that it annoys me that I was the victim, took great effort to leave on a positive and professional note, yet was somehow treated like I was the one who had done something wrong… Oh well. Some people are just a-holes.

    1. Luna*

      Good for you! It sucks to be treated like that, but in the end sounds like you did the right thing for you.

    2. Kittyfish 76*

      Something similar to that happened to me a few years ago. I was promised a job promotion again and again. Then it was given to someone else instead. Even after she OD’d in the bathroom on another employee’s muscle relaxers, but I was nothing but an exemplary employee. Anyway, boss people treated me the same way as you were treated. And yes, I believe some people are just a-holes!

  82. RoadsLady*

    Advice on rescheduling an interview when you’re the poor sap interviewing for the position? Yesterday morning, I scheduled an interview. Yesterday afternoon, my world was turned upside down and an appointment that’s a little too close to the interview was made.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      It happens! Email the scheduler ASAP and let them know that unfortunately a schedule conflict has come up and ask about other availability. I’ve gotten these emails before and it’s never been a deal-breaker for me. Life happens.

      (And good luck with whatever is turning your world upside down!)

      1. whistle*

        This exactly. Provide evidence that you understand this could be an inconvenience and is not ideal, and that’s really all you need to do.

        This happened to me two weeks ago. I emailed someone to schedule an interview. Before the candidate responded, I got the family call I had been dreading that told me the family emergency I was in the middle of required me to travel immediately. The candidate then responded to confirm that she could interview the next day. I emailed her back and stated that a family emergency had just come up and I would have to reschedule for the next week at her convenience. She expressed understanding, and we rescheduled.

        I’m still dealing with my emergency (and will be for some time). I hope things go well for you, RoadsLady.

  83. Hannah*

    What is a good amount to budget for as a meal per diem in a large American city? I don’t travel for business much, and I am supposed to come up with an amount that I expect to need to spend on meals. Obviously, getting by on big macs and granola bars would cost a vastly different amount than dining on steak and lobster. What level of meal is appropriate to ask for? This is in a nonprofit environment, if it makes any difference, and if my budget is too large, I may not get approved to go at all.

    1. dr_silverware*

      Lunch & dinner–I’d peg a low-range but still sit-down restaurant entree at $15, plus money for a drink/add-on at $5, plus a combined tax/tip of 25%. So at a minimum there I’d say $25 for a meal.

      1. dr_silverware*

        Well, kinda mid-range. You can get cheaper for sure, but it’d take more effort.

    2. fposte*

      Can you look up the government rate and go by that? If you look up “federal per diem” or “federal m&ie” (meals and incidental expenses) you can look by state and even some cities.

    3. SoSo*

      That depends on the city you’re going to and the types of amenities you’ll be using. A city in the Midwest is going to have much cheaper food costs per person than a huge metropolitan place like New York or LA. Then if you’ll be dining out at higher end restaurants with clients, or if you’ll be going to local/chain restaurants make a difference too. It’s probably safe to assume $20-30 for lunch and $40-50 for dinner, and that’s probably mid-range for a lot of places.

    4. Overeducated*

      You don’t necessarily have to make it up yourself – look up the GSA (government) rates for travel for the city/state you’ll be in to estimate. The MI&E category is “meals & incidentals” and it breaks down costs by meal and full vs. partial days of travel. Those are the costs government workers, contractors, and grantees are generally allowed so they should be considered reasonable unless your organization has other budget constraints and guidelines.

    5. StudentA*

      I would take a look at nearby restaurants like IHOP and other inexpensive spots and check out their prices. Then, I’d determine the average of those restaurants and fast food restaurants.

      I haven’t really come across per diems that literally cover all three meals in their entirety, with tip and all. Not sure if that says something about the companies where I’ve been employed, or if this is just the way it is for most companies. I will say that at the director level, it is much more generous, since most of those guys just get a company credit card. /shrug.

    6. De Minimis*

      I work for a non-profit with a lot of travelers, and I don’t know where we came up with our rates, but our total per diem per day is $66. Breakfast is $11, lunch is $16, and dinner is $34, and even if all meals are provided everyone gets a $5 minimum per diem for tips. I think this is based on the federal rate [though their rate varies with location, but ours does not.]

    7. Lindsay J*

      Our domestic per diem here is $40.
      Previous job it was $49.
      Job before that it was $32.

      That’s just for food, and most of the time we are put up in hotels that serve breakfast, so it’s really just lunch and dinner.

      $40 is fine for the places I generally travel to. I can imagine it being tight in some of the business districts in some of the higher cost of living cities.

      (Also, this is just for solo meals. If it were for meals with vendors or for other business purposes they would be expensed differently and would likely cost more).

      $40 covers me for a lunch at a local place like a burger, sub, or something like that with fries and a drink, and a decent dinner at a casual restaurant.

  84. Almost a MA*

    I turned in my MA thesis last night 34 minutes before the deadline. I’ve been out of the office work for the past week to 1) attend a conference 2) work on my thesis. three hours later and I can almost see my desk, and have a to do list roughly 3 pages long. I’m. so. tired.

    1. Rainy*

      Congrats! And hopefully you can get some rest over the weekend now that you are done your thesis!

  85. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Weird question, now that I got a job with advancement opportunities and the amenities that come with a large employer (multiple good cafeterias with varying foods, lots of networking, etc.)

    But how often should you eat with coworkers or others vs. eating alone? I’m an introvert and can’t afford to eat in the cafeteria all the time anyway- plus, eating in a cafeteria and looking for a place to sit brings back crappy memories of being frozen out or bullied for years at school.

    And how do you stay professional after working out? New job has a workout studio space and some classes.

    1. T.G.I.F.*

      Re: staying professional and working out

      Maybe don’t stare at all the “cute butts” like you did at the last gym / workout class you went to.

      1. NaoNao*

        Come on. People make off the cuff remarks without thinking about it all the time, it’s only that the internet preserves both the comment and the outraged or irate responses to it.
        That remark was quite awhile ago and she was “spanked” for it roundly at the time. She’s also been through a hell of a time with her partner and life struggles. Let he (or she or xie) who is without sin cast the first stone.

        1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

          Thanks, I use they. And I quickly found when I started yoga at all, that I couldn’t stare if I wanted to! My balance is bad, and so I am just thinking “don’t fall over/can I hold this pose?”

          I didn’t mean anything by my earlier offhand comment- it was a joke, since my suburb has the highest rates of plastic surgery in the state. People get butt injections, yes really.

    2. Chloe*

      I would kind of hope that the workout studio would have a changing room or maybe even a shower? I don’t know. Most of the places that I have worked at that offer a space to work out in have that amenity, but it doesn’t mean it is everywhere. If it does, I would take advantage of those resources to maintain “work appropriate hygiene.”

      As far as lunch goes, I would say if you want to eat with people who you think you might like, ask them to lunch! Then people will ask you to lunch as well. On the days that you don’t want to eat there, or you need some personal time, decline and find a nice place nearby to eat, a park, or even your office. But when in your office, face away from your typical work space, and put on some headphone and listen to a podcast, read a book, or whatever you need to do to take some personal time.

    3. Tableau Wizard*

      I think you could get a sense of what your coworkers / teammates do to make sure you understand the established culture for lunches. But, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with limiting the cafeteria time if you’re not interested or comfortable there.

      If part of your hesitation is the cost, you can likely still bring lunch and eat with coworkers in the cafeteria if you want. There will be some teams where that is common and others where everybody just brings the food back to their desk. But don’t ever feel bad about saying you want to fly solo for lunch. Reasonable people will totally understand.

      1. Thlayli*

        I second bringing your lunch to the cafeteria. Lots of people I work with do this.

  86. Cute Li'l UFO*

    I didn’t get the job at Local Biotech Palace but the recruiter encouraged me to keep applying as I saw relevant positions come in. She said she wanted to see my name in lights on their site–her words, not mine!

    I had an interview at a company I interviewed at last year and I feel like that went well. I hope that keeps going because they’ve really grown in the year since I last interviewed. I wasn’t so fluent in Sketch but they did give me a heads up and I did play around with it prior to the interview/test. It is pretty self-explanatory and as my interviewer said it’s just as much following the directions to a T as it is understanding Sketch, if not more!

    Thanks everyone for all of the help. My face and brain are much better than they were two weeks ago.

  87. StudentA*

    Can anyone recommend a good (and free!) portfolio-hosting site? I am looking for something that provides a private space. I don’t want to be searchable, definitely not public. I am just looking for a way to provide links to recruiters when asked, or to put on my resume. Thanks!

    1. CAA*

      Back when I was getting resumes for creative positions, the most common one was Behance. Some people just used flickr. You can also share files with Google Drive, but it’s not a formal portfolio site.

    2. EB*

      If you’re in a creative field (designer, etc.) I highly recommend that you have a public website with some public information and then hide the portfolio items that aren’t public behind a password-protected portion of your site. If you’re a student (just assuming based on your name) you may be able to find a service that will do this really cheaply if not free, but I’m not a student anymore so I don’t know offhand– ask a career counselor/advisor if you have one!

      We recently hired a designer at my org and I have to be honest– it’s a red flag if you don’t have a public website of some kind at this point. I’m not sure I’d even recommend sending a PDF or Google Drive link unless it’s absolutely necessary. Five years ago that wasn’t really the case, but design jobs can be hyper-competitive and you’ll need a website to be on par with everyone else unless you’re an exceptional candidate. Of course, hiding portions of your portfolio behind a password are totally fine if the client requires it!

      1. StudentA*

        Thanks…I am just really fussy about privacy. And I am definitely in a creative field. I guess I will just have to suck it up. I will look into a way to get a cheap one done. I appreciate your take on it!

  88. Interview Over-Analyzer*

    Does anyone have tips for how to answer a question like “What role do you usually play on a team?” (e.g. leader, follower, etc.)? I had an interview yesterday and while I actually do pretty well with behavioral questions since I’ve practiced so much, this one tripped me up because I had NO idea what they were looking for – it is not a managerial position, so I figured ‘leader’ wasn’t a default ‘correct’ answer, but I also feel uncomfortable saying I’m a follower because I’m afraid that demonstrates I don’t take initiative – and what’s more, I don’t know if I’m either! And are there any other options BESIDES ‘leader’ or ‘follower’?

    2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq*

      That seems like a poor question. Thinking about it, I would probably say that it depends on the project. If it’s something I own, I lead, but if it’s not, then I take my cues from whoever does own it?

      When you encounter a dumb question, I think it’s best to answer it honestly, as opposed to answering it how you think they want you to answer it. That way, if you get rejected because of it, you’re at least rejected for being honest about your skills/inclinations (indicating a possible mismatch) versus being rejected because they smelled bullshit.

      1. De Minimis*

        I’m trying to go into my next interviews with that mindset. I have a horrible habit of trying to come up with an answer and interviewers can tell I’m full of it…

    3. Susan Sto Helit*

      It depends on the industry. For mine, I’d say I provide creativity and problem solving-skills, which is entirely true. Think about all the skills you’d generally need on a team (technical knowhow, consumer/market insight, a cool head, creativity, attention to detail, etc) and decide which best fits you.

    4. Interview Over-Analyzer*

      Thanks for the ideas, everyone! I appreciate the ideas — if I make it to the second round and they ask me again (since I sort of fumbled and didn’t provide a great answer the first time) I’ll keep these in mind :)

    5. Argh!*

      You’re not really supposed to know the “right” answer to every job interview question. Sometimes they just want to get to know you better.

      If you feel comfortable with behavioral answers you can discuss how you function in a team meeting. You could be the one who listens and then summarizes points at the end, or the one who takes excellent notes, or the one who asks clarifying questions, etc.

    6. Irene Adler*

      Teams also have a “facilitator” role. Facilitators are the ones who bring relevant documents to meetings, assure folks all know their tasks, due dates, etc. They check if folks are managing their tasks or are falling behind and need assistance, keep track of where things stand with the project, make sure all participate, encourage the shy ones and see to it they are heard, and they moderate the blowhards.

    7. CAA*

      Another option is communicator. I tend to be good at seeing how projects fit into the bigger picture and at translating that information so that non-technical users can understand it better. Therefore, I tend to end up being the person who is the access point into the team for non-team members. Likewise, I am usually the one translating the business-speak into technical-speak for the team members.

    8. LadyKelvin*

      Can you think more specifically about what types of roles someone in your field might take on? For example, we don’t really have the same “leader” and “follower” designations in my line of work, we mostly work independently but collaborate to brainstorm, solve problems, etc. I have a specific subject matter expertise that people come to me for help and I go to others for their subject matter expertise. Also, our work is very programming/modeling/statistics heavy so if I was asked a question like that I would tell them that while I am not the strongest programmer I am really really good at debugging other peoples’ code. People will happily send me something that they are stuck on and I can figure out and fix their problems usually much quicker than if they had tried doing it themselves. Can you think about what types of work you do well that your colleagues ask you for advice on?

    9. Thlayli*

      There’s a whole load of team theory psychology stuff. Google roles on teams and I’m sure you’ll find a load of “roles” you can claim to be.

  89. Ruthie*

    Ooh, I’ve been waiting for Friday just for this! I just need to share with Internet strangers that I’m going through a tougher time at work. There’s been a lot of dysfunction at my office for a while, but in the chaos (and maybe because of it), my team’s leadership has come to rely on me more and more for support. So in a culture with very little professional development and advancement, I’ve been given increasing responsibility. It’s now become clear to my one-time peers (I’ve already been promoted once) that I am having more influence in the organization. And they are not happy with it, I expect because they haven’t been given the same opportunity to grow. They also aren’t always happy with the decisions that are made, and are used to working very independently and not being subject to decisions made by others. And it means that my one-time close friends are treating me icily. It’s a personal problem rather than an office problem because they work with me just fine, just without the warmth our relationships used to have. On a rare occasion they have complained about my work (usually when I don’t prioritize a request from them), but our boss has my back and is taking that with a grain of salt because he recognizes the dynamic at play. I understand that friendships change as a result of changes in office power (and often really need to), but that doesn’t make it less painful. Our boss also isn’t a great manager, so his instinct is to make everyone feel more comfortable with the situation by asking me to either pull back from projects I’ve been working on or keep from my colleagues that I am influencing decisions. I plan during our next weekly meeting to share that I’m not happy with that solution, and just trying to think through how to phrase it. I would love your advice!

    1. Argh!*

      I’m one of the left-behind people in my organization. My boss’s pets are totally overwhelmed and not particularly happy either. I’ve started to push back on the unequal division of labor, but I have no idea whether my boss will respond or decide her pets can do my job and let me go. I decided it was worth the risk because my boss should know that I’m willing to take on more work.

      Good luck approaching your boss on this. Sometimes they get promoted for the wrong reasons and believe the fact they’ve been promoted is evidence they’re great managers. I don’t think my boss has attended any training or read any management literature in years, perhaps decades. (Since she’s perfect, why should she?)

    2. ..Kat..*

      I am assuming you are a woman based on your username. I am so tired of women being told to pull back to make others (especially men) more comfortable. Can you call your boss out on this?

  90. bluskie*

    Our organization is going through cascading transitions, especially at the senior leadership levels. The plan is not for people to wear many hats forever (they say) but they are only filling the top level positions one at a time. Open positions that report to the vacant VP seat in my department are left open in the hopes that an overqualified candidate who gels with the culture could be appointed to the VP position.
    Right now my manager and one interim manager are reporting to the C suite. When it came to admins who asked for promotions to reflect they took on the responsibilties of the more senior positions, our C suite person put the director of another department, his right hand person, on the job to talk to everyone asking for a promotion or title bump to relflect the work they do. The Director, who is not anywhere in the chain of command to whom our AAs report, has asked the people seeking promotions to take on work for her team -specifically, scheduling meetings, producing meeting notes, and other AA responsibilities these folks have been doing and do not correlate to the with a promotion, to demonstrate to the C suite person that the promotions are deserved.
    Is it worth taking to HR? Their team is very new – has had >80% turnover in the cascading changes. The VP just started this week.

  91. lollyscrambler*

    Anyone have any ideas on finding a second part time job or income (in the UK)? I took a 3 day a week job (in a library) because I needed to escape a toxic workplace urgently but I ideally want extra income. I have thought about teaching English online (since I do a lot of online teaching in my job anyway) and people have suggested proofreading and copywriting as side hustles, but I don’t want to spend a lot of time training for these if I’m not likely to get work.

    1. Susan Sto Helit*

      Do you have any skills that would lend themselves to private tutoring? If so, there are various websites you can be listed on.

      My mother is a former language teacher, and quickly discovered when she decided to offer tutoring that there was actually more demand for tutors than she had free time she was willing to commit (she’s had to put her prices up to reduce enquiries).

  92. Mostly Venting*

    Went to open enrollment meeting with Benefits Administrator. Benefits Administrator tells us she is bound by HIPPA so if we have specific questions about our own medical stuff vis a vis plan options, we can share that with her and she is bound to keep in confidently and will do so in helping us determine which of Company’s offered plans makes most sense for us.

    She’s also screensharing.

    She has the little Outlook Message Preview Pop Up Thing enabled, so that when you get a new email the to/from and first couple sentences flash in the corner of the screen, and for some reason has Outlook open, but minimized, while screensharing. So one of the people in the meeting emails her while she’s still talking, because she just said to email her any time, and the little box with the first two sentences of the email flash on screen in the corner for two seconds. There was nothing revealing other than “Hi I’m emailing about Thing You Just Said”and it both cut off and disappeared before anything personally revealing could be exposed. But still. She JUST said she’s bound by HIPPA but she hasn’t disabled that preview AND keeps her email up when screensharing with 100 people. Any of us could potentially see whatever happened to get emailed to her at that moment. Not really a good way to keep stuff confidential?

    And yet I’m probably going to need help from this person so it probably wouldn’t be the best idea to call her out on that not being a very good practice.And also someone who doesn’t already realize that is probably not the best at confidentiality. All her credibility with me went POOF in that moment.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Eh, sometimes people can be oblivious to stuff. The question is how she responds when you point it out to her “Hey, you may not have realized it but during the presentation you were screensharing and I could see…”

    2. CAA*

      I would point this out. “I don’t know if you realized it, but when you were screen sharing the other day, everyone could see the confidential messages that popped up in Outlook. I thought you might want to know so you can disable that in the future.”

      Windows has options to disable notifications when screen sharing, but lots of people don’t know about them. I’ve seen many embarrassing IMs and emails during presentations.

      1. Thlayli*

        This. Lots of people don’t know how to disable this feature. I don’t know how (it’s useful for me though).

        You could let her know how to disable it.

    3. Construction Safety*

      Unless your company is a medical provider, I don’t think she’s correct in saying that she’s bound by HIPAA.

      HIPAA: Acronym that stands for the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, a US law designed to provide privacy standards to protect patients’ medical records and other health information provided to health plans, doctors, hospitals and other health care providers.

  93. Its Intern Season Again*

    Well, after last year’s crop of good, okay, and how the heck did you get this job, I’m dreading dealing with the interns. My company likes to pair them with “hi-pot” employees in the hopes we can teach them the culture and help retain them if they’re good. I generally don’t mind it, but last year I got the Bottom of the Barrel and she really made my weeks difficult and I had to work extra hours to do my regular job. Anyway, I will call her Carrie.

    Carrie had a sense of self that was completely entitled. On the first day, when we had the “welcome to interning at TeaPot International,” the interns were asked to introduce themselves. Carrie went last and instead of just an “my name is Carrie, I’m a senior at X university majoring in Y,” she gave a three minute pitch about her qualifications and how she was President of her Sorority.

    During her internship, she would frequently be on her phone Facetiming her “sisters” and her “boyfriend.” I also had to tell her it is 10000% inappropriate to Snapchat in our office about things happening in our office. At one point, she “snapped” a computer screen that client information on it. I was hoping they’d get rid of her after that, but no. I had to deal with and “coach” her.

    Carrie didn’t like to come into work on time, either. She didn’t like morning traffic. She said it gave her anxiety. When I suggested a flexible schedule for her that would have her arrive an hour earlier and leave an hour earlier, or come in an hour later and leave an hour later, neither of those worked for her. She didn’t like getting up extra early and she didn’t like leaving late because she would miss her pilates class. We kept her assigned schedule and I had to document what time she was coming. I was hoping they’d get rid of her, but no. That was another “coaching” moment.

    With all of my “coaching” and “teaching” her how to do the jobs I needed her to do, I was falling behind. I brought it to my manager’s attention and she said I needed to learn how to coach difficult people if I was going to advance. Ok. I can understand that.

    Carrie didn’t like to do the jobs I’d give her, or she’d do them totally wrong. When I would correct her, she would say, “well it makes more sense to do them this way.” I would explain why we do them the way we do do, and she would tell me that it was a “dumb” way to do things and she was going “improve” things.

    The final straw (and what finally got her kicked out) was the day the interns were asked to help set up an event in one of the conference rooms. Carrie felt it was appropriate to email the entire C-Suite that it was “demeaning and misogynistic to ask a female intern to assist with a party set up.”

    Her mother emailed HR the following day (after she was let go) to complain how awful we were and how mean I was and how I ruined her daughter’s chances.

    SO yeah, any advice for dealing with bad interns?

    1. Cruciatus*

      Her *mom* emailed HR. Yeah, no. Sounds like you’ve had interns before and that this was a one-off situation. I think you’re just fine and probably handled everything the proper way. What you need is a supervisor who will deal with problems and not turn it around on you! Is there anyone else there who had a mediocre or just as horrible intern who may have advice for what they did to turn things around?

    2. animaniactoo*

      Well, to start with, I’d say you need a key convo with someone like this about how it doesn’t matter if they like the work. Their job is to DO the work. And do it the way the company wants it done. If they don’t feel they can do that, they are welcome to leave their internship – but otherwise, it’s their job to find a way to manage to complete assignments they don’t like, to company spec.

      If they’d like to have a conversation with you about possible ways to manage dealing with tasks they don’t like, you’re open to that. But not to complaints about not liking tasks or refusal to do them as instructed to do them. Including showing up for work on time.

      Toss in stuff that talks about work ethics, who it impacts and how when she does or doesn’t do certain stuff, how it gets her viewed as an employee.

      Also, backup any flexibility turn downs with a clear hard line “Alright, so you’re saying that rather than switching to one of the other options I’ve made available, you’re committing to being here on time for the regular hours, is that correct?” Any hemming and hawing is met with “I’m sorry, you need to understand that’s unacceptable. The issues you have with the hours you’ve been offered are something you have to figure out how to deal with and manage in a way that they don’t create an issue for your or the company with consistent late arrivals. Which set of hours can you commit to being here on time for?”

    3. Pollygrammer*

      Can you talk to whoever manages the interns and make it clear that this time around if there is a problem intern you’re going to need the authority ask that they’re either let go or transferred so that it doesn’t interfere with your work again, citing the multiple problems that weren’t addressed soon enough with Carrie?

      “Learning how to coach difficult people” should involve also learning the judgment needed to decide when someone is simply too difficult.

      1. Middle School Teacher*

        +1. I would add to document everything, of course. As well, if these interns are coming via a college, could you talk to someone there? They should know their students are not being correctly prepped for the work.

    4. Irene Adler*

      Yeah. Clearly the hiring folks need to do a much better job than they have been.
      This should have been screened out at the interview phase.

  94. Question on Anon*

    A friend is a website developer. The company often has more work from clients than it can handle, so employees are asked to work some jobs as freelancers, where they are paid a special rate and do the work after hours/at home/on the weekend. Recently, my friend did a job where he was promised by his manager (verbally), let’s say, $1,000 for all the work, based on the hours needed to complete it (it was a reasonably fair rate). He did the job, but when it came time to pay, he received only $200. His grandboss told him that he had been offered the original amount by mistake. But the new amount is far below minimum wage.

    The company doesn’t make these freelance offers in writing, it’s usually, “There’s a website to make, here’s the pay, will you take it?” And it’s never been an issue before. But is there any recourse for my friend, considering he didn’t get this in writing? His manager is beating around the bush in a way that suggests he is hoping my friend will forget about this. (My friend is not planning on doing more freelance jobs for them. He found out another coworker never got paid for a job, period.)

    Also, is this arrangement (paying full-time salaried employees special pay so that someone will take on special projects–it all appears on their pay stub, but under different categories, I think) above board?

    1. KayEss*

      I can’t comment on if that’s legal with regards to the pay stub and such, but it sounds like a pretty sketchy way of doing business overall. I’d be putting out feelers for a new job if I was your friend.

    2. Red Reader*

      I do this regularly. My employer offers a supplemental option to salaried employees, we can work up to 12 hours per week at a specified hourly rate assisting a team that is not the team we work for with our regular work. It’s optional on our end and has to be requested by the manager of the other team – my other team is perpetually understaffed and I have higher production than most of them (I worked on that team before I moved into management for my current team), so they ask for my help every week, and I usually max it out.

      1. KayEss*

        Ah, that sounds like how this should work. It seems like this company does not have its ducks in a row regarding set hourly rate, time tracking, etc. which is what makes it sound fishy to me. I would expect the hourly rate to be comparable to what full-time hourly rate is, as well, though probably lower than a contractor rate–certainly not below minimum wage.

        It really sounds like this company is trying to have its cake and eat it, too, with regards to taking on more work than they can handle but not paying market rate for the labor to get it done. Either that, or they’re in a serious bind and haven’t thought through how to move forward. Both of those are grounds for this friend to side-eye his future prospects with them.

        1. Red Reader*

          Yeah, my hourly rate for that job is the same rate I was being paid before I left that team and moved to my salaried role. (I hope that made sense. :-P )

    3. essEss*

      I hope he took his website that he created and removed it since he was not paid for the work as promised. Any more freelance jobs must have the pay scale in writing.

    4. Natalie*

      Regarding the way they are being paid – as long as the extra payments are being taxed like employee pay, it’s certainly fine. It’s like giving someone a bonus for working really hard or doing an extra project or whatever. However, if those extra payments are being treated like a vendor payment (no taxes withheld), that’s almost certainly unacceptable from the IRS’s point of view.

      Regarding the payment disagreement, I don’t think it would matter to the DOL that the pay rate quoted was a mistake. If I tell someone a job pays $15 and then realize after they’ve started working that I meant $12, I can’t retroactively lower their pay even though it was an accident. But I’m not sure how much he wants to push back given that this is a current employer

    5. ..Kat..*

      If this is in the US, from what Alison says, this is illegal. She suggests making it a ‘we” problem. “We can violate labor laws if we pay me less than we agreed on, especially when it is less than minimum wage. To avoid government penalties, we need to pay me the agreed upon amount. How do we make this happen?” And file a complaint with the state labor department if this isn’t corrected quickly. And the person who wasn’t paid at all! Encourage them to file a complaint. What a crappy company. Probably resume polishing time.

  95. Mononymous*

    Where is the line between mentoring someone and being asked to teach them how to do the basics of their job?

    I’ve been asked to help mentor and develop a junior colleague, and I’m all for that, but I’m starting to approach BEC with him. Three years as a programmer and he still comes to me with “I got an error” (implied “fix it for me”) with no details on what the error was, having tried nothing to fix it himself, etc. He won’t even try google first. Boss recently asked me to delegate some tasks to him, and I did, but he put them off until past the deadline and then came to me in a panic with a “how do you recommend I do this?!” Meaning, he seemingly doesn’t know how to do the task. At all. If a programmer with three years’ experience doesn’t know how arrays work or how to write a function, or how to write basically any code from scratch (vs. copying existing code and tweaking a few input fields here and there), is there even a way to mentor them to competence, or is this as futile as it feels to me right now?

    Sorry for the mini rant, I have a hard deadline coming up in a few weeks and so didn’t need this right now.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Have you been clear with them about the steps they need to go through BEFORE they come to you, and how to bring you the problem? How to present it to you?

      Honestly, it sounds like a lost cause, but having been through those steps is part of the due diligence on your part in terms of coaching how to be an employee who handles things they don’t know.

      1. Mononymous*

        I’ve walked him through the steps of “what does the error message say” and “what have you tried so far” and “here’s where I would start” to point him in the right direction without doing it for him. That has reduced the number of “I got an error” (ugh) IMs in the last few months, at least. I’m just stumped by the lack of technical skills. Boss wants me to delegate to this colleague, and I’m trying, but there’s just so much he doesn’t know how to do. I’m at the point where I have to choose between spending all my time trying to teach him how to do his job or just doing all the work myself, but the immovable deadline and volume of work means I don’t actually have enough time to do either of those! My kingdom for a coworker who can pull their own weight! :(

        1. animaniactoo*

          Lay it out for him – he can’t come to you until he’s tried to Google and see if he can find an answer himself.

          If he can’t find an answer or thinks he has but isn’t sure and wants to double check, he has to bring it to you as a full report: “Here’s what I got. Here’s what I tried, and it resulted in X. I found a possible answer, does this look correct to you?”

          I’d also sit down and have a clear convo with him that he seems to be missing some significant technical skills and here’s where he can research to bring himself up to speed on them and he might need to put in some hours outside of work looking into those things for himself in order to improve. Also, is he aware that he’s missing so much knowledge. Can he give you any insight into why he is? It’s possible that 3 years experience is a bunch of rote actions or solutions that he only had to learn a specific set and execute them over and over again.

          1. Mononymous*

            I think your last few sentences are key. He had zero programming experience when he was hired (by an incompetent former manager, but that’s a whole other story) and was left by that terrible manager to “self-teach” by copying existing code. Our current, excellent manager has been trying to get him to build his skills since we were moved to this team, even allowing him time to take online programming/development courses on the clock, but he doesn’t seem to be very interested. He lacks the basic technical skills AND doesn’t seem to have any drive to seek out learning himself, but instead appears to want his hand held through each step. But there just aren’t enough hours in the day, and I definitely don’t have the patience to teach at that level (there’s a reason I’m not a teacher of any kind!). Not sure where we go from here.

            1. animaniactoo*

              Ahhhh. That’s the point at which you can have a different blunt and clear conversation “I don’t have the time to walk you through stuff every time you come up against an issue. I get that you were hired into a role you’re not fully qualified for, but it’s up to you to put in the work to make yourself qualified for it with as little impact on your co-workers as possible. I’m available for answers if you’re putting in the work and come across something you’re struggling with. But I need you to put in serious independent effort at fixing this.”

              And then push back on your boss on the other side “He’s not picking up the skills and he’s not working to pick up the skills. I can’t delegate tasks to him or develop him if he’s not willing to do those things. I’m willing to work with him – but he’s gotta be working harder at it than I am. Right now, he doesn’t seem to have either much incentive or initiative to do that and I want to discuss with you how strict I can be with him about his self-management around his lack of knowledge. It’s just not sustainable for it to be that he learns it in bits and pieces by coming to me every single time he has a problem and then I have to babystep him through the basic problem-solving.”

            2. Irene Adler*

              Someone (not you!) needs to make a hard decision- keep carrying him, or replace him.

              And, if they wish to keep carrying him, then you need to be absolved of that responsibility as it is impeding your project progress.
              Maybe a heads’ up to those who can make this decision AND may be impacted by the delay of your project?
              Dang, I would LOVE the opportunity for this job. Gee, online courses during work time? Boss support to improve my skill set? Where do I sign up!

    2. ..Kat..*

      Well, the problem is that he can’t do the job and isn’t willing to learn. And is comfortable not doing a good job.

      1. ..Kat..*

        And, your manager needs to MANAGE this employee. Have you been clear about how bad he is at his job and how much time you are spending on this? And what work you can’t get done because you are hand holding him?

    3. Windchime*

      When I first read your post, I thought, “This guy (meaning your colleague) isn’t a programmer.” Then I read further down that he actually ISN’T a programmer!

      I believe that people either have the aptitude for programming or they don’t. It’s OK if someone doesn’t; it’s not for everyone. But in my experience, most programmers have a natural curiosity and ability to apply concepts to new situations, and it sounds like this guy just doesn’t have that. I know I’m preaching to the choir, OP; but I do sympathize with you. I think it’s time for a serious conversation with the boss about this guy who is just not cut out for programming.

    4. SpaceNovice*

      Some people just aren’t cut out for programming. He’s one of them. Partially because he won’t put in the effort to learn. Maybe that’s fixable if there’s a self-esteem and confidence issue that can be resolved… but he’s not putting forth the mental effort to try at the moment.

      My brother was able to teach himself all the basics like you’ve mentioned in under six months, although he didn’t have a job at the time. There are online courses that cover the basics in under 100 hours. A friend of mine taught herself the basics of Unreal AI programming in under a month for school (by youtube videos, mostly). After half a decade of not programming at I, I picked it back up in a hurry to use it for a particular project and then got thrown into being the principal developer for an entire website. A couple of my coworkers are learning Python with the same online class right now and have constantly been chatting about it in the office. Another friend of mine just noodled around with Python and asked me for help until she got some basic concepts, then ran with it. There are SO MANY ways to learn programming compared to how it was even a decade ago.

      It sounds like it’s time for his manager to have a good chat with him to decide what he wants to do with his career. There’s no way anyone would hire him at his current level, because he’s below even the basics. Sometimes people just aren’t cut out for it, and it’s okay.

  96. AnonResearchManager*

    I’m having a vendor management issue that I’d like some other opinions on. I’m in a middle management role at a huge global company where I am responsible for managing the vendors that provide work and services to my department. Most of the vendors are really awful but I am stuck with them for the time being until their contracts are up. One in particular is beyond awful.

    In the past, before I knew how irresponsible this vendor is, and before I saw that their work process really doesn’t fit with my workflow model, I had allowed them a lot leeway and flexibility in their assignments.

    Now that I know I can’t trust them at all, I have given them a much shorter leash and they are pushing back HARD.

    I’m having trouble finding the balance of maintaining a professional relationship with them through the end of their contract (I am not renewing), not treating them like wayward teenagers; and completely micromanaging them because there is no other way to ensure they’ll do the work correctly and submit it on time.

    Any thoughts of how to strike a balance or does it come to a point that micromanaging is necessary based on poor performance?

    1. animaniactoo*

      I would say the micromanaging is necessary, but I would lay it out for them as “until such time as I feel comfortable that we both have the same expectations and the workflow issues appear to be resolved” – i.e., paint it as temporary, to get past a series of current issues, with the potential to relax the oversight when the issues are resolved.

  97. My Boss's Homework*

    This is not so much a question but rather a rant about a thing that I just found out happened last week at my super badly managed work.

    My CEO is doing an MBA at a local university, while also managing the company. It turns out that last week he wrote an email to one of his employees (let’s call them X) who has a background in maths. The email read more or less like this: “I have a special request for you. I am flunking one of my classes and the professor gave me one last opportunity to make up for it. I have a final assignment due soon but no time to do it. Could you do it for me? You can also ask Y [other employee who also has a maths background] for help if necessary. [in bold] It would mean a lot to me and Company Name [end bold].”

    Employee X was extremely confused and talked about it with employee Y, who then took up the task and did the CEO’s assignment (on company time). The assignment got top marks.

    Y is pretty fed up with the company and this was basically the last straw. I don’t have all the information but I know they talked about it with HR, who said they would talk to the CEO but haven’t been much help otherwise.

    I am just flabbergasted and find the whole thing just absurd, not to say completely unethical on so many fronts.
    (And yes, I am looking for a new job, but it’s not easy because of my visa situation).

      1. Pollygrammer*

        Yeah, cheating is kind of A Big Deal for most schools. And a company that would condone it is…not a good company.

      2. My Boss's Homework*

        The only reason why I hesitate to report it to the university is that I fear retaliation from my boss against Y or anyone else that might be aware of this.

        1. Margery*

          This is so unfair on so many levels. What about people who have actually put in the work?

          I know you are worried about retaliation but this is pretty serious IMO.

        2. Thlayli*

          Is this common knowledge in the company? If so, you can probably report it and there’s no way to know who reported it. If not, maybe start some rumours!

    2. Eye of Sauron*

      Well at least he’s open and honest about his lack of integrity. /s Geez man.. if you’re going to cheat don’t announce to the world that you’re doing it. Yeah, this is going to fall into the “Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change” bucket. Sorry… The only silver lining is you know what you are dealing with now.

  98. RG*

    Got an offer! Came in 5k less than I was hoping, but was able to negotiate a signing bonus!

  99. Rick The Dev*

    Is it weird to be turned off from wanting to work with a company if they want to schedule your interview, for a job with standard office hours, later at night or on a weekend? I understand that early stage startups need to do that sometimes because the founders are always working, but that’s just one of many reasons I’m not targeting early stage startups. Getting this from larger companies now too.

    1. Mediamaven*

      I think a lot of people would appreciate that because they don’t have to battle with sneaking out of the office to interview. I think it’s a bit weird to be sensitive about it but hey, if you don’t want the job!

      1. Rick The Dev*

        If they expect me to be regularly available on the weekends, no, I don’t want the job. It means the interviewers have to be in on Saturday too. It’s an exceptional request in my field and if your first proposed time is Saturday afternoon, it would make sense to clarify that it’s so the candidate doesn’t have to sneak out of the office or burn up PTO days.

        1. Irene Adler*

          Might ask about this expectation at the interview.
          Then you’ll know.

          Personally, it would be a great help to me to schedule interviews at such times. A gal can only have so many doctor appointments, ya know.

    2. Nanc*

      I always give folks early morning, evening or weekend options. Not everyone can easily interview during the business day. If they can–great! If not, I’m fortunate to be in a position where we can accommodate them. For the record, I’m old, the company is old and we’re in a small town.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      I interviewed with a company that was still in the start-up category that did this, and they did it specifically because they wanted to set the expectation right out of the gate that they would not be keeping normal office hours, so YOU would not be keeping normal office hours. If they’re interviewing at weird times like this it is definitely at least an orange flag if you want to keep to a remotely normal kind of schedule.

    4. LizH*

      I would be thrilled to have an interview after hours or on a weekend. For me, it would remove a lot of stress about getting time off, being seen in interview attire if you have a normally casual workplace, etc. And to not have to answer questions about where I’m going from co-workers would be great.
      Just my two cents.

    5. AeroEngineer*

      Meh, it depends. The head of my department usually rolls in around 11 and leaves around 7, so his interviews are usually quite late in the afternoon. The rest of us get in between 7:30-8:30 and leave at a normal time, so the interview time does not correlate with the expected work times.

      The weekend times are a bit strange, but perhaps they just want to make it easy for you?

      Before I started working full time, I think I would have been turned off by this, but now that every day I am in the office and working, having this option would be awesome. I would love the option as it is really hard for me to take that much time out of the day, on top of the fact that it is very obvious that I am going to an interview.

    6. Mirth & Merry*

      Don’t forget interviewers also have their regular work to do that might not be movable. It could be between A) an interview later in the day and B) an interview 4+ weeks from now. I assume they are hiring because they need someone in that position so the sooner the better right? This is something that I have been seeing lately too and doesn’t seem to be tied to long hours (which can be a little creepy when it’s you alone with 1-3 interviewers haha)

    7. Rick The Dev*

      A lot of replies, which is good! Here are my thoughts:

      * I don’t have a problem with a company wanting to schedule an interview at, for example, 5:30 P.M. on a weekday. That can be good and understandable, and it’s not so far out of the standard working schedule for my job.
      * The gripe I had which prompted me to post this is this: in my current job search, I’ve had a few companies start by offering only weekend times and not acknowledging it’s exceptional. i.e. “We’d like to move on to setting up an in-person interview. Would you prefer 12, 3, or 4 on Saturday?” If you treat coming in on Saturdays as a normal occurrence (I’ve never worked an ops or support job that required non-standard hours), why would I assume otherwise?
      * Maybe I’m lucky, but I’ve never had to regularly work on weekends. When I have been asked to put in significant OT, it’s usually been acknowledged as an exceptional circumstance. It’s also been materially rewarded by my boss/department/company: ordering a nice lunch/dinner, getting car service to and from the office, etc.
      * Following on from that, interviewing is a standard job duty for folks of my relative seniority. Since I’m in a major metropolitan area, there’s been a fairly high rate of turnover at most of my employers: people move, people join other companies, get promoted or take internal transfers, etc. If you’re asking me to come in on a weekend to be interviewed, you’ll be telling me to come in to interview someone when I’m working for you.

      For the record, I think the modern expectation of being always on call, “because that’s how it is these days,” is garbage and people should push back on it whenever it’s feasible. I’m not opposed to hustling when it’s truly needed, but I’m also not going to be on call 24/7. One way I do that is by screening out companies that expect you to do an interview Saturday afternoon, make a big deal about bi-weekly company happy hours, etc.

  100. Free Meerkats*

    I’m going to be in Providence, RI next week for a conference. When I was looking at getting from BOS to downtown Providence and back, I had pretty much settled on uber for ~$100 each way. Texting with someone who lives in the area, she asked, “Why not take the train or the bus?” Living where I do, I forget that parts of the country have usable mass transit. So now the plan in the Peter Pan bus, picks up at the terminal, drops me off less than 100 yards from my hotel. And its only $23 each way, so I’m saving the City about $150. Wins all around.

    Just finished downloading all the presentations to the tablet, wrapping things up here at the office. This weekend is time to catch up on sleep for the 0300 shuttle ride to SEA.

    I’ll be here less next week.

    1. Ingray*

      I love Providence! Hope to get to enjoy some fine Italian food on Federal Hill while you’re there.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I take the train from Boston to conferences in Providence. Fast and easy! Have a nice trip!

    4. 653-CXK*

      According to the Peter Pan website (https://peterpanbus.com) it’s $12 each way (about 45 minutes) to downtown Providence (Kennedy Plaza). The MBTA commuter rail costs $11.50 each way (takes about 55 minutes wil stops) , and Amtrak is $16 each way (40 minutes), and about a fifteen minute walk to downtown.

  101. Prairie Home Companion*

    Does anyone have tips/encouraging stories on finding a job out of state/across the country? My partner is moving across the country for graduate school so I’m following as well. I’m very early in my career, so I would ideally want to move for a job that I feel would be a good fit. However, it’s looking like it’s slim picking for jobs I am interested in my field in that location. How terrible would it be to take a job that I feel meh about just in order to get moved out there and have pay? And then look for another better suited job? I don’t want the job hopper stigma.

    One friend recommended I put on the top of my resume instead of my address WILLING TO SELF RELOCATE to entice people but I just don’t think I’m actually going to be able to completely afford that. My current job paid for my relocation across the state so I know it’s possible to find jobs that do that. But is that a better move to put that or my partners address when I don’t intend to relocate until I have a solid job offer? (We are in our mid twenties and both don’t have enough savings for me to just move out there without a job lined up, I’m too scared to do that.)

    1. CBE*

      I wouldn’t put that instead of address. If you have anything at all, I would put your current location and something like “Planning to relocate to New Town, State Summer 2018” or something.
      But definitely don’t do anything that would eliminate the possibility of relocation assistance, even if you’re moving without it.

    2. Captain Raymond Holt*

      There’s nothing wrong with using a local address for your applications, just be prepared for the company expecting you interview at short notice.

      I also wouldn’t put a notice at the top of your application materials but, address the move in the cover letter.

    3. Argh!*

      Spouses take meh jobs in university towns all the time. There’s no shame in that, and you have a good reason for leaving it when you interview for a career position later.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Should you follow your partner? At the expense of your career? Graduate school is only a couple of years (well, for a Masters), and then another move for the post-masters job. Factored into this is how long/strong your relationship is. And, how does this impact your career long term?

  102. De Minimis*

    I have two interviews next week, one is a video interview and I’m terrified about technical difficulties [had an interview on Skype a couple of years ago where my modem reset in the middle of the interview] and just not looking good overall.

    I’m hoping all the interviews I’ve had so far will pay off for one of these [or at least for something else soon….]

    1. De Minimis*

      And now I have a phone screening next week for a third job….not sure on the pay for that one though.

  103. Bones*

    I’m 26 years old (graduated Fordham ’09) and am 0/3 with regard to bad bosses. First boss (1.5 yrs) was a verbally abusive Broadway producer who withheld my last 3mos pay until I had to get a lawyer, second boss (9mos) paid me 25% under what my work was worth and was a narcissist nutjob, and my third job (since mid-August) has just found itself in the middle of a racial/sexual harassment scandal. How many more short stints can I even afford on my resume? I work in admin and don’t have a lot of specific skills, and I’m getting incredibly nervous. I want to make a good life for myself and would appreciate any advice.

    2. Kimberlee, no longer Esq*

      Make sure you’re building your reputation. It’s actually surprisingly easy for admins to build a good rep, because your whole job is helping people. Even if your org is dealing with scandal, you can still surely get a good rep and some good references out of it (goodness, I HOPE that not literally everyone is involved in the scandal).

      Also, consider building other skills. If you like working in admin, good skills to have include graphic design, legal/compliance, HTML/CSS, writing/editing, or bookkeeping, depending on what you tend to be good at or interested in. Most of those you can learned and practiced on your own, online, though that will take a good chunk of time and dedication. So if you can get your work to take on any portion of it, that’s ideal (maybe pitch them on a graphic design course that you can do during work hours or at least that they’ll pay for, and that will mean you can do internal graphic design support).

      Also, I would say, unless there’s a specific reason not to (such as if your employer is paying for a course), just start job searching. Yes, some jobs will not consider you because of job-hopping, but maybe you’ll stumble on one that doesn’t and is a much better place for you! If you submit, say, one really good application every week or two, that’s probably worth the time and effort.

      1. Bones*

        My direct manager is the person under investigation, and I am one of the people giving evidence that she is racially biased against black employees. I don’t think I’ll be getting a reference from her (not that I’d want it).

        1. Kimberlee, no longer Esq*

          Ooof, that’s all understandable. But that means you should angle for references from others; it sucks to end up in a position where you did good work but you get punished for it because of someone else’s bad behavior. Build relationships with whoever else makes sense, be overwhelmingly effective, and you can still get a good reference out of this job (in my experience, employers are understanding about “My manager isn’t a reference for me because I reported their terrible and illegal behavior, here’s someone else I worked closely with instead.”)

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      Can you transition to temping for a bit to get out? Temp jobs are expected to be short-ish in duration, so you could do that for a while to build more experience in a setting where that’s more expected and won’t look weird on your resume. And sometimes, a temp job can transition to a full time role. And at that point, you’d have hopefully worked with the org long enough to know if they were full of bad managers or not.

      1. Bones*

        I mean that’d just be horribly underpaid jobs in NYC, and any minor skill I could learn from the kinds of jobs I could get, I already know.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I heartily disagree with that. I temped for a bit in NYC, after three years as a full-time admin, a master’s degree, and a 6-month internship. Every workplace is different, so there are always things to pick up, even if they’re softer skills like answering the phone a certain way or dealing with different types who work in different industries; PR people are different from, say, finance people. I also got paid quite well, if I recall, at least when I compared it to my retail earnings. If you’re looking to get out quickly and you have admin experience, temping is a great option to start with. At least with temping, the interview process isn’t terribly long.

  104. Bibliovore*

    Procrastination post:
    Expenses and finance stuff.
    I’ll come back when I have submitted.

    1. msroboto*

      I like to stay on top of these things. I traveled extensively for a few years. A lot of those trips were from BOS to SFO (or other very west coast places) at the last minute. I would incur around 2500-3500 in expenses every week. I would submit the expense report weekly BEFORE I went out for the next trip.
      This also helps you remember little things that are easily forgotten.
      I did get great points on AMEX those years. mmm free gift cards for restaurants and stores.

  105. Applying to multiple jobs at the same company*

    Does anyone have experience with applying to multiple jobs at the same company? I’m in the sciences, and I can spin my skill set in several ways to qualify for different positions.

    Should I apply for the best fit and mention in my cover letter that I’m also interested in their other posting? Apply to both jobs? The companies are small enough that I’d assume two applications from the same person would be noticed. Only apply to the best fit job?

    Any advice would be much appreciated!

    1. Chloe*

      Are the two jobs within the same hierarchy? Or are they completely different departments? Do they seem to be on the same level pay/benefits/experience-wise? I’ve heard from others that depending on how the jobs align, apply for the one that would be “higher” on the work scale. Shoot for the one that fits but also garners more responsibility, or potential for advancement. If they like you and think you’re a good fit for the the other position they can ask you to come in to interview for that, but why not reach for the stars with the other job?

    2. PieInTheBlueSky*

      I would say that if the openings are similar enough, it’s ok to apply to both. I once applied to two jobs at the same organization with similar titles and job descriptions. The hiring manager (who was the same for both positions) contacted me and we talked about it. She said, I see you applied to both openings, you probably did that because you weren’t sure which was a better fit for you. I agreed. Then she said, given your background we think you would be a better fit for opening A. Is it ok with you if we withdraw you from opening B and you proceed with A? I said sure.

    3. A Person*

      I’d apply to both, especially if you’re not sure whether the hiring manager is the same person. Sometimes applications get siloed.

  106. Jaw-Dropped Anon*

    My company has a mailing group that people can send an email to, and it will disperse it to everyone in the company.

    Unbeknownst to me, apparently we have a department that checks the emails sent to that group before they are sent to everyone. And good thing, because the email that someone accidentally sent to the mailing group is incredible. Truly, INCREDIBLE.

    Seriously. It is the most amazing email I have ever read.

    No, I take that back; it is the most amazing *piece of writing* I have ever read. It should be turned into a play or a movie. Aspiring actors should memorize it and use it as a monologue.

    I wish I could post the whole thing word-for-word to share with you all. Instead, here are a few severely modified clips:

    -I deleted your number, but it doesn’t help me in deleting you from my mind
    -Let’s have dinner. Let me apologize. Can you forgive me, like you forgive your pets
    -I’m not attractive, so can we be friends?
    -Can you teach me how to flirt with guys?
    -Who knows if I’ll have ever have kids. Maybe I’ll just grow old and ugly

  107. sunbittern*

    I put my notice in this week after finally getting the written offer letter from my new job! It feels really great, although I am bummed OldJob still want me to stay the whole three weeks before NewJob starts instead of just two. Strangely, although my supervisor and the two partners know I am leaving, they haven’t announced it to the rest of the staff and it’s been 5 days. I also thought one of the partners was freezing me out, because he didn’t even acknowledge I was leaving until 3 days after I’d put my notice in (after 1.5 days of barely looking at me), and said he hadn’t said anything until then because wasn’t sure how many other people knew? I’ve never experienced such a delayed announcement before, and it makes me feel weird.

    1. Hope*

      If they didn’t say they were planning to announce it, they may be waiting to let you tell other people? Sometimes people leave it up to the employee to tell others as they see fit, prior to a more employee-wide announcement. Particularly if you’ve got a longish notice.

    2. A Person*

      You don’t have to give three weeks notice if you only want to give two.

      When I’ve left jobs I’ve always told people myself – managers often will not make an announcement until the last minute in my experience and I’ve always found it easier to wrap up projects by notifying people directly.

      1. sunbittern*

        I know I don’t have to give three weeks notice (I am a pushover); I said I’d be willing to train my replacement if they got one before I left. One other person left while I’ve been here, and there was an email from one of the partners announcing it (she only gave a two day notice – apparently that was fine all around!). I guess I should ask if I’m supposed to announce it or not – there just wasn’t any discussion about that and my experience has always been that someone higher up lets everyone else know. It’s a strange place though!

    3. sunbittern*

      I should say also, that because they’ve not announced my leaving soon, people are kind of piling up tasks on my plate that are making it more difficult to make time for my transition. It’s a job I hate, so I’m trying not to make that contribute to any more grumpiness :)

      1. Mirth & Merry*

        Are you not able to ‘announce” it yourself? Just let them know, “oh I won’t be here after (day) and need to complete X, Y and Z.”
        No once cares about you more than you so make sure you aren’t burning yourself out for others.

      2. ..Kat..*

        “I have given my notice. I am not able to take on (work that you are trying to give me).”

  108. Nisie*

    Argh… My husband has been using our Amazon Prime account for his company’s occasional purchases. The company was fine with it. Yesterday, someone was working on purchases and flagged a purchase as fraudulent. My account was closed- with all the perks associated with it. I’ve lost a lot of books, music, apps, and audiobooks.

    So far, his company has okayed him having a business prime account, but seems to be dragging their feet on fixing thier mistake.

    1. Construction Safety*

      Call them. They ‘closed’ mine when I ordered 180 flashlights on 5 orders for a safety function. They were able to clear it up the same day (but I did have to reorder my lights)

  109. SirKeladry*

    My department is going to get our first intern ever! We’re a small department in a large organization, and HR said that they have the budget for every department to get an intern in the fall. It will be a part-time (paid) position for a college sophomore/junior. They will have dedicated projects to work on during their internship, and we’re not supposed to ask them to do grunt work/endless copies as it’s supposed to be a learning experience for them.

    I won’t be in charge of their projects, but as I’m the youngest person on the team and generally friendly and approachable, I’d like to be ready if they have any broader questions about the working world and professional norms. Ask A Manager is a great resource, and I’ll direct them here if they ask, but what are some things that you wish people would have mentioned when you were an intern? Or what kinds of things should I be aware of that the intern might need to know, but doesn’t know to ask? I’ve been an intern a few times, and those experiences were a bit of a mixed bag, and I’ve never had one on my team before. I want to help make this a positive experience for them!

    1. Kimberlee, no longer Esq*

      Make it super clear that people can ask you any question they want, no matter how small, and especially if it’s something they *don’t* want to ask their manager. Having that avenue is so important; even for non-interns. At my last job I reported to someone really smart and friendly, but incredibly busy, and I felt bad for asking her more than a small handful of questions, no matter how many times she assured me it was OK. Having another person that I was specifically introduced to and who told me to buzz her any time really improved that ramping-up period.

      1. SoSo*

        Yes, encourage them to ask questions! Not only will it help them get comfortable in their position, but their quality of work will be better.

  110. Far more anon than usual*

    Has anyone else in North America run into issues with colleagues who were born and raised in collectivist cultures having problems with other people taking initiative?

    I have a colleague who is…bordering on passive-aggressive when it comes to other members of the team stepping up to use their skills. We work at an organization that invests a lot in individual professional development so a lot of the early/early-mid-career folk here work closely with their teams and managers to put their new skills to use in their roles for the good of the organization.

    This colleague, who has credibility due to being older and more credentialed than some of us, talks a lot about valuing humility and how humble they are. It’s as if they assume that anyone who doesn’t wait for opportunities to be handed to them has an ego, and it’s becoming exasperating to deal with. I’m spending a lot of time saying that we can’t function at our best as a team if we don’t make sure that people’s strengths are visible and recognized, but I think that makes her think of me as being purely individualistic.

    I know this sounds terrible, and I’m a child of immigrants myself, but something tells me that this situation has something to do with a cultural mismatch rather than just being a jerk. Thoughts?

    1. Temperance*

      I’ve worked with people from many different cultures, and have never have this happen. I also do find it ironic that they’re calling themselves humble and talking about how great humility is … because isn’t that pretty much the opposite of being humble, thinking that your way of being is great?

      I don’t think that being older automatically means a person deserves more credibility, especially because they apparently aren’t trying their best to make your workplace better. Why not have a frank conversation about this?

      1. Far more anon than usual*

        The thing is that in a one-on-one setting, they are really nice and supportive – they praise other members of their team. In a group setting, though, if someone else with less “status” speaks up, take initiative, or suggests that they have experience/skills to handle something her reaction isn’t great. I’m concerned that having a conversation with her will backfire and make me not look like a team player.

        Then there’s also all this talk about how the smartest people she knows are the most humble. Except she’s not recognizing that in an environment where people can offer more than what’s immediately obvious, sometimes they will have to, you know, say that they have done or can do something. She doesn’t recognize that, especially because most of the other people involved are younger women, there’s a fine line between humility and being so self-minimizing that you become professionally ineffective.

        The reason I suspect that there’s a bit of a cultural aspect to this is that elsewhere, I’ve worked with someone else who made a lot of similar comments about her colleagues, espoused the same cultural values and had a similar upbringing. I also have a lot of other colleagues, former classmates, and friends who are of this background and aren’t like this at all, but the difference is that they were all either raised or mostly educated in the West. Or they’re younger, so the “respect for elders” thing doesn’t factor in as strongly.

        1. Temperance*

          What is her rank? I honestly think that addressing it depends on that. If you supervise her, I think it’s absolutely important to get her to stop. If she’s a peer, I think you can also address this. If she’s your boss, it’s obviously harder.

          I think you need to take the ideas about being a “team player”, and throw them in the trash. At this point, she’s hurting the team with her weird ideas about contributions to the team.

          1. Far more anon than usual*

            We’re peers in terms of title, which doesn’t stop her from thinking she’s my boss because she’s about a decade older than me and is married and has children whereas I’m some grubby careerist single woman who can’t compromise amirite. She’s been at our organization for longer than I have, but I’ve been in our niche industry for long enough to have done some higher-profile work once I got past entry-level stuff. She doesn’t seem to respect the relevance of experience outside our organization to our work at all, though. Her organization history is important, of course, but it’s not the only thing of value in our position…or at least I see it that way.

            We’re annoyed at her and I don’t think she understands why. The moment we do anything other than defer to her, we’re just a bunch of opportunistic Millennials as far as she’s concerned, I’d imagine. I’m sick of having to keep her happy with the way I do my work. So bloody fed up.

            1. J.B.*

              Probably go to your boss with a “how do I handle this” type question. When are the behaviors coming up? Are they related to work assignments? Meetings? If you both have some ability to assign work to others then I think you have standing to push your point. If your boss sees her more as a team lead then he/she should make that explicit.

              1. Far more anon than usual*

                We’re both senior-level individual contributors so we don’t really assign work to anyone, but we alternately take the lead on projects within our department as needed. This affects any situation where we discuss work we’re doing. Part of the issue is that she speaks with an air of authority over everyone else’s projects that doesn’t really line up with the way anyone else approaches things, and always needs to speak first. It’s as if we have to make her believe in what we’re doing and that she’s holding us to an entirely different standard than our manager is. But of course, she won’t buy into something unless it’s the way she’d do it, and if you want to do something a different way on your own damn project it makes you not a team player because she can’t co-sign it.

                Our manager knows what’s going on and makes an effort to hand the reins to other people where they can be well used, but she swans in with some blanket statements about how things ought to be done – always along the lines of us not taking initiative. It’s subtle, but I’m not fooled.

  111. EEK! The Manager*

    Just got hired as a contractor for an edtech company doing some writing. It’s my first ever freelance gig and I’ll be receiving my contract next week. Anything in particular I should look for in the contract? I know I’m going to have to set aside some of the income for taxes, but not sure of anything else beyond that. TIA!

    1. SL #2*

      Copyright language for sure. Who owns the work you produce? Do you get to claim authorship, even if the company owns the final product? Is the company allowed to scrub your name from the final product?

      (There are no right or wrong answers, btw. Just know what makes sense for you.)

  112. AnOh*

    What’s the etiquette around communicating your soon-to-be departure from a company with new employees?
    I work in a HR/Recruitment role so I handle all the hiring/onboarding for the organization, my last day is in 2 weeks. As I continue to schedule people for onboarding & training, I’m trying to get as much done before I leave as there’s another vacancy in my department so all of the extra work (2 positions) will be falling on my co-worker who has no experience with either of our roles. I’m trying to get everyone scheduled within these next 2 weeks so she has a little bit of time to catch up once I’m gone (I leave right after our next training so there will be some downtime to prepare before the next wave of onboarding happens). I’m lost at the wording to use with our new hires/whether to indicate that I’m leaving. I know I’m probably overthinking it.

    1. Lady By The Lake*

      No need to overthink it “My last day with Co will be May 13. After that, your contact will be so & so at Contact Info.”

  113. OlympiasEpiriot*

    Content Warning: Sexual Harassment

    So, as some especially observant people here with excellent memories may know, I’m in the construction field in a consultant firm which generally deals with heavy construction (IE: roads, foundations, pile drilling, tunnels, things that take lots of huge concrete pours, you get the idea.) Pretty male dominated, obviously, but, despite the general breathing-while-female thing that’s just so much fun to deal with, overt sexual harassment is — thankfully — pretty rare. I’m somewhat senior. White Female. Have experience in the trades and in engineering; as in, I have the skill set to step in and do a dockbuilder’s/laborer’s/carpenter’s job (even though I’m now old and creaky and don’t really want to be slogging around in the muck and wielding a 4 pound hammer, etc.) and I let them know it, but I’m an engineer with all the paperwork that makes me in a position of responsibility as far as the Department of Buildings is concerned.

    I’m on a site for a few weeks [I like to periodically be out in the field, reminds me of all the crap that can go wrong and makes me a better project manager and support for younger engineers doing their Resident Engineer work.] and it is a large site that has been underway for now about 15 years, one way and another, with bigger, fancier field offices and a presence not of only all the contractors involved, and the testing agencies, and the GC and the CM, but also Owner’s Representation. Lots of male-coded “bustin’ chops” competition all around.

    The OR fancies himself “The Big Boss”…yes, he refers to himself as that. I was out here over 10 years ago, know this guy from that time. Day two, he and I are talking in the coffee room, I’m getting the vibe that he’s been nursing some crush for the last decade and he pinches my cheek. Obviously, I very directly tell him to never do that again. There was some clear body language as well. A wrist may have been grabbed and a thumb pressed into the space between the bones on the inside of it. Not sure. I also said, “Hey Big Boss (TM), you need us (my firm). Right now, I am “us” and I am here. Don’t piss “us” off.” I did give a heads-up about this to the guy from my office who is at the top of this job for us…just in case there’s some kind of messed up retaliation.

    Last Monday, he’s out doing a walkaround, I’m in a noisy place near some huge machinery monitoring some work. He comes up behind me, greets me and chucks me under the chin. This time, I stuck out my arm and said “I need a lot more personal space than that.” I also said this in a fairly unpleasant tone of voice and glared.

    Once that bit of work was complete and we were on hold until concrete arrived, I went back up to the office trailer, went into his office, shut the door and said in a very even tone, “Open your browser, type in Dave Schultz Flyers, hit Images and I have something to tell you.” He was a little flustered and had already started talking saying he owed me an apology. I cut him off and said “Look at the screen. Yes, you do owe me an apology. But, first you have to understand that I’ve got a job to do, I don’t need any distractions, and you also have to understand that despite seeing a short woman standing in front of you, inside me is actually that guy you see on the screen. So, the next time you have some urge to touch my face or any other part of me, remember his face and know that IS who is standing in front of you. I don’t need to lose my temper here. I’m at work.” I then let him apologise and I went back out to work.

    SooOOOOOoooo, he hasn’t been hanging around the site since then. Wasn’t here on Tuesday. Nor Wednesday. Not yesterday.

    Maybe he has decided to remove himself from temptation.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Coming from you that is high praise.

        In my company, all it gets me is brutal assignments (’cause they know I can deal) and getting told by the managing partner that I’m “abrasive”. But, I’m no-f***s-to-give years old at this point.

    2. Totally Minnie*

      This was amazing. I mostly stick to “I have not given you permission to touch me,” but I really love the way your handled the situation.

    8. Ann O.*

      That sounds like a sucky experience for you, and I’m sorry you had to have it. I aspire to be no-f***s-to-give-years-old.

      1. Blue Eagle*

        Second this.

        Also, thanks for giving us an idea of what may work if we find ourselves in a similar situation.

  114. SL #2*

    I feel like it’s been ages since I’ve been on an open thread. But here I am, with a cold at work, because I leave for vacation tomorrow and I have some loose threads to tie up. But I am definitely Ready to be out of here… and it’s only 9 am.

  115. pinyata*

    Just want to say a big THANK YOU to Alison and this site and its commenters – I got a compliment on my cover letter during an interview this week and I know it’s from all of the helpful information I’ve found here.

  116. Chameleon*

    I’m almost certainly going to be leaving my (2-year college) teaching position for a better paying one this fall. I haven’t told anyone yet because I don’t have any firm offers yet, though my dean knows I applied to a FT position (that I interviewed for over a month ago but they haven’t made any decisions yet stupid academia).

    The issue is this: my dean is leaving, with her official last day being in June, but she has so much vacation time built up that she is basically already gone. Our department head is in the hospital, and no one knows when she will get back to work. We won’t have a new dean until at least August. Who the heck do I tell that I’m resigning my position? Who the heck is going to hire my replacement? (That last one I know is not my problem, but still).

    1. OtterB*

      Somebody must be acting department head, right? If not, I suggest asking the department secretary, because they nearly always know what’s going on.

      1. Chameleon*

        No one has been named acting yet. But the dean’s secretary is actually a pretty good idea, as she always knows about what’s going on so she’d probably know who I was supposed to talk to.

      1. Buu*

        HR and if you don’t have one does the Dean’s office have support staff like an office manager, their post and urgent emails must be going somewhere.

  117. Nicole*

    I recently tried using LinkedIn job listings to post an open job for my company. We get a lot of applications through their system and have made some good hires there for more technical positions. Unfortunately, their system doesn’t seem to encourage cover letters, so I’m getting a lot of resumes without the relevant additional information that a cover letter would supply and that is helpful for jobs that are based more on personality and communication style. Is there a polite way to reply to applicants requesting a cover letter to clarify their interest?

    1. KX*

      As an applicant, I have combined my cover letter and resume in a single document. I figured that out all by myself and felt very clever for it! And now I know what to look for in an online application so I can do that each time.

      You could tell people in the job description that you want cover letters and that they should submit a combined cover letter/resume document. “Please submit a cover letter and resume as a single document.” You could even add, “Resumes without cover letters included will not be considered,” if you cared to.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Please do specify in the job posting! For many positions I’ve looked at, cover letters are either specifically included (as in, there’s a way to upload a specific cover letter document), listed as optional (sometimes with, sometimes without a separate upload feature), or not offered as an option (no upload feature, nothing mentioned in the ad).

        I’d happily include a cover letter in a single document with resume, and have done so when it’s requested (I generally don’t if it’s not requested though). I’d also be fine with a follow up email requesting a cover letter, although that seems like a pretty labor intensive thing for you to have to do.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Yes, please do this. I’ve run into that with LinkedIn and also with companies’ application platforms and it’s super frustrating to get to the end of the process and find I can’t upload a cover letter or modify my files in any way.

  118. Me--Blargh*

    Terrible week. Just terrible.

    I saw a job that would be perfect for me in StL. (So far, crickets, but it’s only been a week.) And another one in KC, to which I just applied. That one had an insanely frustrating field in the application that demanded a salary figure, would not let you use text or zeros, and so I had to pick something (no, they did not give a range). Grr. National averages are all over the place. I know I went too high, but I have four years of technical editing experience, and it’s a major metropolitan area. The cheapo employers in this state need to catch up. I can’t move for less than I was making at my last job. I really hate when they make you put in a figure before you know anything about the other compensation. I realize it’s a screening tactic, but it’s annoying.

    Rejections all around from everything else, or not a peep.

    As if that weren’t bad enough, I returned to the dentist to find that a previous course of antibiotics did zero for a potential abscess and was given a stronger prescription and told to see a periodontist. With what money, I ask you? I got upset and cried and the next day the dentist’s office dumped me as a patient. Fine and dandy. Hope the antibiotics work. It’s a front tooth, so if I lose it, I will never get a job again because who’s going to hire a jack-o-lantern?

    I went to see Infinity War again yesterday just to take my mind off things. Knowing what was going to happen did not make it any less emotional. D’:

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Oh maaaaan, that’s awful…I am so sorry. Not that that will pay a periodontist. :(

      Are there any dental programs at universities near you? There are sometimes highly reduced cost programs for patients through that. (A friend got all her dental work done that way. She said everything was overseen by the Professors, but work mostly done by the advanced students.)

      1. Me--Blargh*

        Nope!
        There’s a community health center with a dental program, but without Medicaid (can’t get it because my state didn’t expand), it costs money. And they said they don’t have periodontists, though it does say their dentists treat abscesses. I suspect I’d pay $$$ just to have them tell me I need a periodontist. I may call them back if I can’t find anything else.

    2. KR*

      I’m so sorry about your tooth and the frustrating job application. You will find a job, I am confident about it. I’m glad you saw a movie – I see you mention movies a lot and it seems like you really like them. My husband is like this too – there is nothing he likes better than sitting with some popcorn and watching movies.

      1. Me--Blargh*

        Thanks.
        I prefer Alamo Drafthouse, which is not cheap because I like to eat there and hey, full recliners! But I cut back very hard on everything else to afford it, and sometimes I go and don’t eat (ticket prices themselves are very comparable and I get discounts through the loyalty club). I tend to stick to blockbusters, and there are only a couple of movies coming up that I really want to see — Ant Man and the Wasp and Deadpool 2 — so that will help.

      1. Me--Blargh*

        Haha, I tried that. But it came out as $12,345. Thank gaw I had the chance to edit my info before submitting. I didn’t want them to think I would really take that low of a salary. So I just said “F*ck it,” and put down the amount I’d like to get. What have I got to lose? Nothing!

    4. Book Lover*

      I’m so sorry. It sounds like they are recommending a periodontist, not an endodontist? I’m not sure if it helps, but I had to go to an endodontist for a front tooth (dead root) and it was much cheaper than back teeth because easier access and less complicated roots. The final tally was about $600, which isn’t nothing, but it saved the tooth and cheaper than a crown. I don’t know anything about periodontists though :(. I would call and see if they can work with you though.

      I hope a job comes through soon.

  119. Studentless Student Supervisor*

    Looking for any advice on a weird situation!
    We currently have a work term student who has so far only showed up for his first day of work two weeks ago. When he didn’t show up his second day – and no call or e-mail to let us know – I did try to track him down and finally got an e-mail from him mid-afternoon to say he was ill. After a pretty gentle reminder, he is now e-mailing daily to say he is sick. My boss has basically left it for me to handle, our HR was essentially useless, and the co-operative education office at the local university (where this guy is a student and this work term counts for credit) told me that they just go along with whatever the employer wants to do. How do I deal with this? I’m really not sure what kind of questions I can ask in terms of when he’ll be back and he’s really putting us out. He was hired as a senior work term student, which means we have pretty high expectations for what level of work output we’ll be getting and he’s fast approaching a point where he won’t actually work enough weeks in the term for it to qualify as a work term for credit, which means we would need to fire him, as that’s part of our hiring requirements. I’d rather see him show up for work than get fired, especially since it will be way too late in the term for us to hire someone else.

    1. Pollygrammer*

      If he was missing two weeks of class, he would fail that class. You can probably tell him “I’m very sorry for your ill health, but you need [x] weeks of work to get credit for this work-study, and you have only [x+y] weeks to complete that. We’ll have to let you go if you’re not able to do that.”

      1. fposte*

        Agreed; I’d also name the specific “show up by or else” date and cc: the cooperative education office so they know the sitch.

    2. Amtelope*

      I think you need to tell the student that he’s in danger of running out of time: “I’m sorry to hear that you’re still ill. I wanted to let you know that this work term requires you to work for X weeks to earn credit, which means that we will need to end your employment with us if you can’t return to work by X date. Do you think you will be able to return to work by that date?”

    3. animaniactoo*

      After two weeks, tell him he needs some sort of documentation from a medical professional that he is too ill to come to work. You also need a general time frame of when he expects he will be able to return to work, because others are relying on his availability. There’s nothing wrong with asking that.

      It may be too late to hire anyone else, but you’d also rather know now whether this guy needs to be fired and figure out how to handle the missing help rather than spend the time and energy on trying to figure out what’s going on.

    4. Mediamaven*

      Uhhhhhh, no. He needs to go. Like now. If he needs to be told he actually has to show up then he’s not going to give you what you need.

  120. Oceana*

    Vent: My co-worker says my name about 30 times a day and it drives me up a wall.

    We share an office and he talks ALL. DAY. LONG. about non-work-related things. I wear headphones but when he talks he throws my name in there so I respond with a “Hmm?” on instinct but it’s /always/ something he wants me to respond to just so he can blab.

    Him: “I just don’t understand this, Oceana.”
    Me, thinking it’s an issue with our system: “Understand what?”
    Him: “Why do people who live in Hawaii on a volcano act surprised when the volcano erupts?”

    “What is happening, Oceana?” (tries to talk about something controversial)
    “I just can’t even, Oceana.”

    Etc. etc.

    1. Pollygrammer*

      Can you just stop responding to your name, or with the occasional “I’m really busy, is this work-related?”

      1. Oceana*

        I’ll try that response! I’ve started ignoring him when he starts a sentence with my name in it, and the few times it’s been work-related he’s sent me an IM when I didn’t respond. It’s just super irritating, but only adds to the long list of awful that he is (sexual harassment, insubordination, lying, the list goes on…)

        1. RVA Cat*

          Ick. I would just ignore him unless he IMs you. Maybe he’ll eventually be stupid enough to sexually harass you in an IM or email and get himself fired?

          1. CM*

            Agreed. If he says something, just say, “Sorry, I didn’t hear you,” on repeat, as long as you won’t get in trouble for doing that. Hopefully you have a boss who would understand the situation if you explain that you need to focus and he’s always trying to pull you into conversations that are not work-related.

  121. Nervous Accountant*

    Unbelievably, I miss work. No crazy emails (yet!!!) but the craziness in my life makes me super thankful I have this job. I know I’ve said soooo many bad things about it in the past and it has its faults. But I’m worksick (not homesick)

  122. Ermintrude Mulholland*

    I’m being made redundant whilst on maternity leave. What are the best things I can do to prepare for applying for new jobs? I’m not planntto return to work until September (UK) so it’s going to give me a few months employment gap automatically.

  123. Cam*

    I’m about a year into a PhD program. I hate it and plan to leave after summer. I already have a master’s degree, but I won’t get a degree from my year in this program. How do I put this on my resume? If I leave it off, I have a gap, which I imagine would look bad, but if I put it on, I look like a quitter. Or maybe I don’t? I don’t know how dropping out of PhD programs is generally seen (the field is physics). Anyone who has done something similar before?

    1. miyeritari*

      I think this would depend on what it looks like in your field if you haven’t done anything all year. In my uneducated opinion, I’d put it on your resume like January 2015-November 2015 and have a nice prepared reason why you left the program.

    2. Onward and Upward*

      Good for you for being self aware and courageous enough to quit what isn’t working! If you were working as a TA/GA/RA during that year, I might frame it as work experience, without specific mention of it being a PhD program. And then, be prepared to answer questions about it. It is not too unusual to leave a program, and I think most academics or people who have completed a PhD will understand it, especially if you frame it positively, “I realized that I was really excited about…(something related to what you’re doing with your masters), rather than a career in academic/research physics.” Or something more articulate :-) Frame it as a strength, a sign of you knowing yourself and your strengths, rather than “dropping out” or “hating” your program.

      1. Cam*

        Thanks! Yeah, I have been working as a TA (which is why I have to hold out until end of summer, to fulfill my contract), so I guess I can legitimately say I’ve been working. That’s a good way to frame it.

    3. Student*

      Physicist here.

      First, stop and take a deep breath. It’s time to think about your options; don’t make a big decision like this on impulse and in anger. For which reason do you hate the program you’re in?
      1) You can’t do the technical work required. Failing classes, or can’t grasp the research science, or can’t come up with a viable research plan.
      2) You hate the sub-field you are working in; you find it uninteresting, have concerns about future employment options, etc.
      3) You hate the people you work with. Advisor, maybe fellow grad students.

      If it’s #1, then you’re making the right choice, and here’s how it goes on your resume. You put the date of the MS degree in your education section. In your job section, list the full period of time you were employed as a graduate student. In physics, you were probably paid for your time in grad school as a teaching assistant or a research assistant, but put this as a job even if you weren’t paid or paid via scholarship/fellowship – as long as you were engaged in substantive research work outside of traditional classes at least ~10 hours a week part-time. Research assistance is a job. It looks a lot worse to leave off that year of relevant work experience than to pretend you didn’t quit grad school, and they will find out you quit grad school anyhow when you have to send in a transcript to prove you have a MS degree (or when they call references).

      If you’re in the #2 boat, slow down! To be blunt, if that’s your problem, you’re making a stupid choice. Talk to the other physics professors at your college in different sub-fields that you like (even if that is crossing a big science bridge, from acoustics over to plasma physics). Look at other universities. You have a physics master’s degree and you’re capable of doing the work, so see if you can transfer to a different program or a different school that’s better suited to you. You’ll have some catching up to do, but a year delay for something like this happens a lot more often than you think. Don’t quit physics just because you don’t like your current tiny little corner of it – find the spot you fit into better.

      If you’re in the #3 boat, then to be blunt, you are in the same boat as every budding physicist ever. There’s something fundamentally wrong with any physicist who doesn’t hate their graduate research group for some reason (often for very, very good reasons – like burning things down, physical attacks, gross incompetence, fraud, etc.). Again, instead of dropping out, you should look really hard at whether there are better options available to you. You can change advisors or research groups or PhD projects at your current school. You can transfer to a different school. You can likely entirely change graduate degree programs if you still do something technical (chemistry PhD, engineering PhD, etc. Health physics is in popular demand right now).

      You might ask why I’d push you to stay in a PhD program for #2 and #3 even though you really clearly want to quit. I’m pushing you because a MS in physics is basically worthless. However, it shows you probably have the academic chops to get a PhD. There are no jobs for a physics MS. It makes you qualified to be… anything technical except a physicist (…but so did the physics BS). It makes you over-qualified for many entry-level technical positions, though, so it’s harder to get in the door at any particular employer. Get the PhD and it’ll open so many more career doors for you. Quit, and you’re likely going to end up a business manager or accountant someplace rather than doing science.

    4. Thlayli*

      Can you put something like “research assistant” or something? Ask your PhD supervisor maybe?

  124. miyeritari*

    My current office has two rooms. I sit near the front of one room, so I get to “good morning” (GM) everyone who works in the same room as me. I am major GM-er, and most people GM me back. I have learned in my head who i expect to GM me, and who doesn’t GM me, and that’s how I know who is feeling good about the day and who isn’t. This is actually an incredibly useful and accurate strategy.

    In the next couple of weeks my company will be moving into a different office with one central room. It is not clear whether I will be able to GM only the people in my immediate vicinity or THE WHOLE OFFICE (of about 30 people). I am sincerely hoping I get to GM everyone, even though I will have to calibrate my GM-meter analysis.

    Saying good morning to 30 people sounds pretty damn great to me honestly.

  125. Anon1834*

    Anyone have experience with professional career counselors?

    I’m a recent graduate who saw a listing for one in my university’s magazine. I’m trying right now to find a job that will give me more information on what kind of career I’d like. I’m not really looking for a specific career path.

    I’m working an underpaid temp job right now, and I’d prefer to hire a career counselor on a commission basis.

  126. Nessun*

    Wanting to vent after a long week, and this seems like the ideal moment. We have an entry-level position here in the mailroom, and it seems that every 6 months or so, we just let the person go and find a new one. The probationary period is a long one, but it’s still dismaying to see how often we do this – it’s like a revolving door! We are a huge company and our HR policies take AGES to find new staff. So everytime we terminate someone, we have to wait months for a replacement. Currently, that means the mail room is being manned by a temp covering a mat leave and an admin who is due to leave in October for a new position, since the third one is gone now. What that does to our processes is frankly terrifying.

    The worst part is, apparently they have already contacted a temp agency and got someone reviewed, signed and ready to start next week. Which means they hired her before they let the other one go. This is not the first time we’ve done this, and it strikes me as…well, ruthless and rude. Seriously – am I off-base here? Is it common to hire a replacement before you’ve even got the other one out the door? I’d be seriously upset to find they’d done such a thing to me, and I think it damages some of our credibility. I love my job, but I’d never recommend my company to a friend – even if there was a position to fill, which apparently there isn’t.

    1. JeanB in NC*

      If you know you’re going to let someone go, why is it rude to find a replacement first? You said yourself that it usually takes a long time to replace that position. I mean, it sounds like they need to work on their hiring process maybe, if no-one makes it longer than 6 months, but I don’t find the replacement thing particularly ruthless.

      1. Nessun*

        I understand your point. I think what bothers me is the tone, which in my office reads as a fast “get her gone, get the next one in”. The position takes over a year to fully learn, given the cyclical nature of the work, so the revolving door of staff (five now in two years in this role) is frustrating. I agree, there’s probably something that needs to be reviewed in the hiring process – I also strongly feel that the coaching during the probationary period is lacking.

  127. Dragoning*

    Any advice on attending those network-y breakfast meetings at your company? My manager assigned me to be a project manager for this tiny thing at work (this is not my normal job title or job duties; I think he assigned it to be career development, and also because the rest of my team was too busy, but he’s not really been clear on that). And being a “project manager” meant I got invited to a breakfast of project managers at the company where other people will be and experience people will be on hand to ask questions off, from the description.

    This is my first stable position out of college that’s not in retail, and the first time I’ve done something like this! What are these things like? Any tips? I’m super nervous.

    1. ..Kat..*

      Just attend, have impeccable table manners, and listen to others. Think of questions to ask of others near you.

  128. No name for this*

    I just had to fire someone for the first time. It did not feel good even though the firing was warranted.

    The (gender neutral) dress code where I work says:

    Clothing worn by employees must covet them from their armpits to halfway down their thighs (50% of the thigh must be covered). This covered area cannot have any rips, holes, cut-outs, mesh, see through areas or visible skin. Anything with profanity, nudity or offensive/hateful words or logos is prohibited. (A drawing of genetic male and female characters with the covered areas shaded in follows this paragraph).

    That’s it. It is the most casual dress code I have ever seen. Today our VP of marketing is wearing cargo shorts and an NBA jersey. Our CFO has pink and purple hair and is wearing a strapless romper and flip flops. I am wearing jean shorts and a tank top with my fully tattooed arm visible.

    A new employee started here just after New Years. She would violate the dress code at least once a week and be sent home. We finally had to fire her. We tired coaching her, showing her examples of what was and was not allowed. Nothing worked. Today she came in wearing shorts that barely covered her butt and a tube top that showed off her stomach.

    She had to be let go. But doing it still sucked. My boss has been supportive and is letting me go home early. I am still shaking.

    Is it always this hard to fire someone even if it had to be done and was valid?

    I would appreciate any advice or consideration. Thank you.

    1. No name for this*

      Ugh, new phone and autocorrect.

      Clothing worn by employees must *cover* them

      A drawing of *generic* male and female characters

    2. Ingray*

      It’s not a bad thing to feel upset about firing someone. It shows you’re an empathetic person. It sounds like you did all you could to coach this person on the dress code. Just remind yourself you did what you could and you cannot control the behavior of other adults.

    3. Nanc*

      I have no helpful words of wisdom but why, why, why fashion designers, do you make rompers for adults? Or jumpsuits! The bathroom logistics alone!

      The only possible, relevant reason I could think of her continuing to dress that way is she couldn’t afford new clothes, but heck, unless you’re a truly odd size you can at least get a couple of shirts and pants/shorts/skirts at Walmart.

      It’s never going to be easy, but as long as you’re professional, coach folks and have clear policies at some point you have to realize you can’t force them to succeed if they refuse to make minimal effort.

      1. SoCalHR*

        I actually really like rompers, they are comfortable and flattering. But the bathroom sitch is a little challenging.

    4. SoCalHR*

      I’m surprised a strapless romper is ok and yet you still had to fire someone for dress code violations. My mind is a little blown at her lack of recognition of the rules and that she potentially wouldn’t have sufficient clothing to meet this requirement. To me it seems she’s blatantly ignoring the rules, not having difficulty understanding them, and if that is the case the firing is 100% warranted.

      To your actual question, I find ‘justifiable’ firings hard, but definitely less hard than ones that are more of a gray area or that I have to execute that I don’t necessarily agree with (or when people are legitimately trying but have failed to perform at an acceptable level). I’m guessing this one was hard because it was your first one, because I’m so flabbergasted by the situation that I don’t think it would be hard for me to fire this employee.

      1. Observer*

        Well, a romper does cover your tummy – which is one of the areas that she apparently left bare.

        But, yes, it’s hard to see how she couldn’t manage to comply with a dress code this loose.

    5. Eye of Sauron*

      I too feel bad when people lose their job, but that doesn’t make the decision wrong. This particular individual sounds like she fired herself. Because this is seriously the most lax dress code I have ever seen (more lax than many public high school dress codes).

    6. Mediamaven*

      It gets a little easier, but it never feels good to fire someone unless you aren’t human. I fired someone who actually called me a b++th (I’m not one and none of my employees would call me one), and trashed pretty much everyone in the company. Even that didn’t feel good. But you did the right thing and as a manager, you have to feel confident that what you did was for the advancement of the company. Your staff will appreciate it.

    7. whistle*

      The first termination is the hardest of course. They’ll get easier, but you’ll almost always feel bad in some way. That’s part of being a human and a good response, imho.

      Do something nice for yourself this weekend. You are not the bad guy.

      Does your company offer any severance for terminations? Mine does, and that can really soften the blow and make your job as terminator easier.

      (I’ve fired dozens of people for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes the decision was made by me, but mostly I’ve been the messenger, which means I’ve done some terminations I didn’t agree with. Those are the hardest. I can think of three terminations where I felt nothing bad. These were long overdue and situations where the employee was creating so many (repeated and documented) problems for me, my team, and my company, that it was such a relief to get the green light to move forward.)

    8. Observer*

      It’s good that you are upset. If you don’t get over it quickly, that’s not so good.

      Firing someone should always be done strictly because it is necessary and this discomfort help to make sure that happens.

      The one thing I would suggest is to go over everything – hiring, coaching etc. and see if there are any things that you might have done differently. Were there any signs etc. The answer could very well be no – some people just can’t be coached and there is nothing you can do about it. But doing the post mortem is worthwhile. Either you will confirm that you covered all your bases, or you will at least know that you have learned a potentially valuable lesson.

  129. Nancy*

    I think I might be looking for validation or maybe someone to tell me “Not my monkey, Not my circus.”

    I’ve been at my new job for almost a year now. I come with a background in the area, just not with the company. My team was down two people for a few months and we finally filled them. However, both people don’t have background in the area or the company.

    My counterpart has been displaying, what I would call, “red flags.”

    *The first week he asked me how our time worked since he had been paid hourly (like myself) at his old job and now we are salary. He mentioned that in the interview they told him upwards of 60 hours a week during our busy time. I can in during our busy time and that was not the case. However, I was careful to manage my time wisely. He thought that was a lot of time to be at work.
    *He disappears a lot, for long stretches. He is too new to be doing anything yet and our boss has asked where he is a few times, so it can’t be related to work. A new co-worker in another department commented on him being 30 mins late into work all the time to his boss (I overheard). So it isn’t just me noticing it.
    *While he is new, we had a big event recently and he seemed not interested in jumping in to help, unless someone instructed him or asked him to. It wasn’t hard to know what needed to be done. The two other brand new people were helping and even the caterer started helping and they had not knowledge.
    *In a moment when we were alone together, he mentioned that he thought this was a lot of work (he hasn’t seen busy season yet) for not a lot of money.

    My thoughts are to just do MY job and make sure I offer to help, the team, if needed. But am I crazy? Are these not red flags???

    1. Anon Today*

      Not your circus, not your monkey’s.

      This is for your boss to worry about. Unless it’s impacting your work, then I’d leave it alone. If you have a decent manager he/she will be noticing and then either address it with this person or eventually they will be asked to leave.

    2. Tardigrade*

      Nah, not crazy. I think they are red flags, but they don’t seem like ones that are affecting your work. (Are they? If so, bring that up with your boss in the context of how it negatively affects your work.) It sounds like your boss is aware of his inexplicable absence and lateness though, and given his comments about how much work he’s doing, the problem might solve itself.

    3. fposte*

      They’re not promising signs, that’s for sure. But it sounds like your boss may already be noticing that he’s less than optimal, so hopefully she’ll handle it if it becomes a genuine burden and not just a warning sign. Especially if you all have a probationary period, you could ask to meet with your boss to share your concerns about New Guy’s fit, but overall it’s his manager’s responsibility to deal with him, and it sounds like the less attention you pay to him the better it is for you.

      1. Nancy*

        Well I’m glad I’m not crazy and I will definately stay in my lane. Our busy season will come soon enough and it will be sink or swim at that point. He is lucky that he didn’t start in the middle of it like me.

        Thanks.

    4. Mediamaven*

      They are red flags and you can mark my words he will not be there in six months – either he quits because he can’t hang or he is fired because he can’t hang. I’ve had those people. They never work out. But I do think you should elevate your concerns to a supervisor. Trust me, I would appreciate that.

  130. Jeeper*

    My daughter just finished her first year of law school. Her grade point average is 3.28 and her school is ranked 119th in the country (USA). She’s worried that she won’t be able to get a job after graduation that will pay a salary large enough to help support her family and pay back her student loans. Is she right to be worried? She’s thinking about dropping out of law school.

    1. Temperance*

      Jumping in as a lawyer: it depends. What does the alumni network look like at her school? Is she active in student groups and networking groups? Does she have a legal job this summer? Did she grade on to Law Review/is she interested in Law Review/Moot Court?

      I generally discourage people from dropping out of law school if they love it and are doing well. I know a few people who went to law school just because they thought they should, which was a seriously terrible decision.

      1. fposte*

        NAL, but I think it’s also worth asking if she will be staying in the area of the law school–a lot of schools have a low national profile but are recognized as acceptable in their locality.

      2. Jeeper*

        Alumni network is ok in that city, but there are three other law schools within two hours. She does have a legal job this summer. She didn’t grade on to law review but is trying to write on. She’s not able to participate in any student organizations because she has two little boys at home (ages 4 and 2) and her husband’s job has crazy hours.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Not a lawyer, but I think having a legal job over the summer is a good sign. If she thinks she has picked the wrong career, I would be concerned. But if she wants to be a lawyer, concentrate on doing a good job this summer.

      3. LBG*

        She could consider working for the Federal Government. Some agencies offer student loan repayment assistance. She would need to negotiate it when she is interviewing, iirc. She would most likely start out at a GS-11 pay grade (GS-9 until she passes the bar).
        OPM link: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/student-loan-repayment/
        If this is something she is interested in, many agencies have a summer law clerk program. She would need to search USA jobs for those. They are fairly competitive – besides the student loan program, there are a lot of people who want to work in public service. We usually require that they be in the Top 1/3 of their class and have something like law journal or moot court participation on their resume. Here is our link to our program: http://www.secnav.navy.mil/OGC/Pages/Law-Students.aspx Link to our attorney job postings: http://www.secnav.navy.mil/OGC/Pages/Attorneys.aspx#attorney

    2. Irene Adler*

      There’s a lot of job markets where there’s a glut of lawyers. In fact, there were several licensed attorneys in my paralegal classes. They could not find employment as an attorney so they were hoping to find work as a paralegal.

      Look into specialties where there’s great demand but few attorneys to meet that demand. Look into places other than attorney’s offices for jobs. Like patent attorney with a large biotech company. Or, regulatory affairs depts. with a large medical device or drug company. These jobs often need someone with a legal degree. And yes, these biotech jobs pay well. Might need to relocate.

    3. CatCat*

      What exactly is the salary she would be looking for, and is that realistic in the market where she will be working?

      1. Jeeper's Daughter*

        I don’t have unrealistic expectations or anything. I just want to be hireable upon graduation! I want to practice family law and I want to be able to make my student loan payments while still feeding my children.

        1. Lady By The Lake*

          Family law isn’t generally considered high pay, but you might be able to find something. The good news is that it isn’t an area of law that many people like very much since it is so emotionally draining, so there might not be much competition.

        2. CatCat*

          Things that would improve chances of getting hired:
          – Good grades
          – Law review
          – Practical experience, particularly working directly with clients (not necessarily in family law; just gaining the skills of working with clients and figuring out what their legal issues really are)
          – Building a network. Join local bar associations, attend their events, and meet the local practitioners. Do informational interviews. Never underestimate the power of just knowing and being friendly with people.

          There are certain things that can’t be known like the state of the market when you graduate. Will there be a recession? No one knows. That is a risk to be aware of though. (Happened to me!)

    4. Cookie Monster*

      I looked up what school this is and I think she’ll be absolutely fine in this city! While there are a lot of other law schools, there are also so many firms, especially a lot of medium-sized one. I believe this city also has a pretty substantial immigration law network, but that field doesn’t pay as well.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        It’s also the worst of both worlds if you accrue a lot of debt for a year or two of school and then drop out without a degree. Since she’s passing (I think, right?), if she has reason to think she’d be a decent lawyer, I’d say stick it out at this point.

  131. Newbean*

    I have a resume issue I don’t know how to handle.
    My work history is very much what is always described as a red flag for potential employers because I have many short term jobs listed on there. I have 10+ years of work experience but most jobs I have held for 1yr or less. My longest held job is 6yrs which is pretty good but I was let go from about 2 years ago.

    The reason for so many short term jobs is that when I first started working circumstances forced me to move to a different country. I held like 3-4 different positions in that county but the economy was so unstable that each job lasted at most 1 yr. Then I moved closer to the US border to try and get a job in the US but with no reliable transportation I had to stop working at the retail job I had found. I finally moved back home and found a good job that later turned toxic and I was let go after 6yrs. So now I am stuck trying to find a new job but my list of short jobs dating back to 10 yrs, I think, is keeping good hiring managers away from me.

    Should I risk it and just use my 6yr job from which I was laid off from as my only work experience or should I keep my short list of jobs on my resume and risk not being called for or considered for an interview?

    Thank you all!

    1. Eye of Sauron*

      I think you should be ok. The 6 yr job will counter balance the other short term ones. I would maybe try to condense the short term ones or only include the relevant ones. Definitely structure it so the focus and weight is on the longer term one.

    2. Bea*

      That’s not a red flag, you may be asked in an interview about the cluster of jobs but your explanation is absolutely reasonable and since you have a long term (6 years is a nice lengthy time to most folks), they’ll focus on that.

      I had a similar issue happen. I was somewhere for 10.5 years, I moved on because they were selling and I was moving out of the city anyways. Then I did a couple 1-1.5 year gigs, the last one being super toxic and insane. I was able to scoot away with a lot of interest and interviews/requests (I found a job super quick so I was getting call backs from jobs I applied to who took time to get back to me). So truly do not stress and just know your reasoning is solid enough to shake off the curious orange flags someone may be getting from the resume.

  132. Professor Ash*

    I commented roughly two months ago about a situation in my department (https://www.askamanager.org/2018/03/open-thread-march-16-17-2018.html#comment-1898559), which has since been resolved.

    Despite getting extremely positive feedback on my teaching demonstration for “Analysis of Pokemon Evolution”, I was not offered the position at my current institution. Every person outside of my department who learns that I was not offered the position has expressed surprise and confusion, which makes me feel better even if it isn’t especially helpful. All I was told is that the department wanted someone with a stronger background in “Analysis of Pokemon Evolution”. There were other concerns that I left out of my previous comment, but I had been reading the writing on the wall for a couple of months and I was glad that I had been diligently applying to other positions.

    As it happens I was offered, and have accepted, a full time position at another institution. I was in the running for a tenure-track position teaching “Analysis of Pokemon Evolution”, but ended up not getting it. Still, it does show my department that other people do believe I am qualified to teach such a course. The position I have accepted is at a community college, which I am very excited about, so everything ended well.

    1. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      I remember when you had this problem originally. I am so glad your situation has resolved satisfactorily! Congratulations on your new position!

  133. Inappropriate interview questions?*

    I recently volunteered to sit on the interview board for a college scholarship. One of the interviewers asked a question which had a lengthy lead-up about a guy who served in Vietnam and woke up on a helicopter with a body bag. I thought this was an inappropriate question because, you know, graphic violence. Other questions focused on details of the candidates’ personal lives.

    I met with the chair of the interview committee later and told him that I thought the question was inappropriate and that in general we ought to make the interviews accessible for trauma survivors. I recommended guidelines on what were and were not appropriate interview questions, like “no graphic descriptions of sex, violence, injury, or illness,” and “don’t ask anything that would be inappropriately personal to ask someone you’d just met at a cocktail party.” He basically shrugged off these suggestions, saying that other members of the interview committee thought these questions were fine, and that students ought to be able to handle questions like these.

    Am I off-base? Is there a good argument to be made for questions such as these? I’m a trauma survivor myself, and to me it feels like it would be completely possible to get everything you need out of an interview without putting trauma survivors at a severe disadvantage.

    1. Jess R.*

      That sounds awful. You’re not off-base at all. I cannot possibly imagine what you’d get from such a question that you couldn’t get from other, reasonable questions. I don’t know how you fix it, but you’re definitely not off-base.

    2. Pollygrammer*

      That is incredibly inappropriate. Also, just really stupid. It sounds like your interview panel was just taking the opportunity to entertain themselves and feed their own egos.

      Maybe ask him to explain? “Is there a reason that our interviews involved so many questions so far outside the business norms and that could be considered inappropriate and concerning to interviewees?”

      If he gives any kind of excuse, tell him that you think it mean losing interest from desirable candidates, and that most people you know would consider questions like that a big red flag.

    3. Lumen*

      I can only imagine what a veteran, or someone who lost a parent/sibling/partner to combat would think of this particular interview question. So disrespectful, at the very least, and you’re right: potentially triggering a traumatic response in a number of people, even outside of a military population.

      Also, you know, bring up some of the legal ramifications of asking certain personal questions. Students have rights, too.

    4. NYCRedhead*

      I would argue that it is inappropriate, not only because of its nature, but because of the “lengthy lead in.” I’ve been on interview panels with people like this, who really just want to tell a story, and not get to the question. He should just get to the gist of the question that he wants to ask.

    5. Thlayli*

      Im really curious about what the actual question was! Did it even have anything to do with the body bag story?

      1. Inappropriate interview questions?*

        Verbatim: “If you were drafted, would you serve your country?”

        Keep in mind, this scholarship has nothing to do with military service, or even public service of any kind.

        1. Thlayli*

          Woah. That is so inappropriate! Anyway isn’t the whole point of a draft that you don’t get a choice?

    6. ..Kat..*

      Is the scholarship for a degree in which this question would be relevant? If not, this is a bizarre question, and seems to be more about the question asker than anything else. Expecting applicants (probably mostly 17 to 18 years old) to have a good answer to this question is bizarre.

      1. Inappropriate interview questions?*

        Nope! It’s for liberal arts of all kinds. There’s a good character component, but nothing specificly about military service.

  134. Emma*

    This question definitely falls on the not-so-major side of things, but it’s something I’ve been wondering about and thought I’d ask it here. I’ve worked at a small (less than ten people) government consulting firm for about two years now. On my first day, our secretary asked me if I wanted anything from the coffee shop in the lobby of our building. I said no thank you because I wasn’t sure of the office etiquette just yet and didn’t feel right about someone else getting me coffee when I’m capable of getting it myself. Since then I started buying myself coffee in the mornings on my way into work from the same coffee shop, so she knows I’m all set and she doesn’t need to ask me if I need any coffee. Now two years in, the precedent has been set that I get my own coffee, and she picks up everyone’s usual orders, except me, on the company’s dime.

    I still don’t feel comfortable asking her to get my coffee, but can’t help but feel like I’m the only one paying for my own coffee. It feels petty to even bring it up, but of course, I wouldn’t mind taking advantage of a company-provided coffee in the morning! What’s the right move here, especially now that she doesn’t ask me anymore?

    1. SoSo*

      I would do the following:

      1. Don’t bring in your own coffee one day
      2. Before she leaves on her coffee run, try to catch her and say “Hey, I know I don’t usually partake in the communal coffee run but my schedule has changed/I didn’t have time to grab my own this morning- is there any way I can add my order to the ones you’re picking up?”
      3. Repeat as necessary.

      1. SoSo*

        and if she’s a good admin, after this happens once or twice she should start to remember and beginning ask if you want to be included. And if you partake every day, it should become automatic.

      2. BadWolf*

        Or possibly drop by at the end of the day one day (not the very end, don’t snag her when she’s putting on her coat to leave) and say, “Hey, I know I’m not normally in on morning coffee, but is it too late to get added to the coffee morning run tomorrow?”

    2. SoCalHR*

      two years of not-free coffee? bummer! Ideally, you would have said sooner “oh you know, I didn’t realize the coffee thing was a company perk, I’d love to get in on that next time.” But really you probably could still say that now, it just seems a little funnier since its been so long.

  135. Pseudo Soriano*

    Happy Friday everyone —
    Any tips or advice on resigning when your boss takes resignations really, really personally? I just got an offer to move to a different department to do DreamJob, and while Grandboss is supportive (“Steal all their ideas and then come back in a few years — there’ll always be a place for you!”), Boss’s treatment of the last five people who have left has been less than stellar – ignoring people, leaving them off distributions lists, slightly trash-talking them when they’re not around. Boss is not a bad person — s/he would make a great best friend – but this is one aspect of their management style that has me worried. Any tips? (FWIW, I don’t start my new job until mid-June, but I’m more than a little worried about the treatment I might get between now and then.)

    1. Lumen*

      Been there; companies and bosses who take resignations personally are exhausting and can really make your last weeks at a job miserable.

      Turn in your resignation and ignore their butthurt feelings… up to a point. They won’t be your Boss soon, and as long as you keep your side of the street clean it sounds like more senior people in the company have a more realistic take on things.

      However, decide on your red line regarding their behavior: things that may affect you long term or are outright abusive, etc. And if they cross it, say something. It sounds like this is an emotional sensitivity of theirs, so it may be best to speak to them privately. Then, if it continues, take it to GrandBoss.

      tl;dr – Not your circus, not your monkeys. You can’t control someone else’s poor management of their feelings.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Previous BossLady cried every day for my last two weeks and would make snide comments. I got really, really good at the blank stare, and got a new pair of earbuds to blank out as much as I could. But I did make a line in the sand, and if she would have reverted to her aggressive push on wanting to discuss her opinion that I had anorexia, I would have told her the first time to knock it off (again), and the second time I would have just gotten up and left. Luckily she stuck to the crying spells.

      As my Gramma always said – people irritating you? Picture them in polka-dot underwear. The completely ridiculous, ruffled, sparkly kind. Still irritating you? Put on more colors of polka-dots. When you get to black polka-dots, it’s time to say something to them.

      Also – it’s going to look worse on them for trash-talking people. Any sane person would look at that and think they’re incredibly unprofessional and ignore what they’re saying.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          She’s the best. We were at some random family function, and she turned to me and said “Green polka dots!”, then continued on as though she hadn’t said anything, which was hilariously confusing to everyone around her.

      2. Lil Fidget*

        I had psyched myself up to quit my first job and was nervous, but told myself there was no way it’ll be as bad as I thought. My boss offered to take me to lunch that day and I finally managed to get it out. HE CRIED. A 50+ year old man in a public place and he cried!! I was so uncomfortable and felt terrible haha. So take comfort, it probably won’t be that bad (unless it is).

    3. A Person*

      I’ve been there! I’m there right now! I just smile at them. They can’t do anything to me, I’m leaving, and anything they do just reinforces the fact that I made the right decision.

      This time, when management failed to get under my skin, they started going after my colleagues, going as far as verbally reprimanding them for taking me out to lunch to celebrate.

      For that, I remind myself that I can’t save everyone but I can give them hope that they can get out too one day.

  136. Lumen*

    Venting about overreactions!

    Our department was informed this morning that we’ll all be moving desks again. This is not a big deal to me at all (it will be my third desk in <2 years, my current one is in a spot where people frequently pause to have conversations, and there's a weird glare on my keyboard) but as per usj, the rest of my team is having minor meltdowns over it.

    One person literally complained that she will have to get up to use the restroom a few seconds sooner than she normally would, because we'll be farther away, and she likes to wait until the last possible second because she's So Busy. My eyes nearly rolled out of my head.

    It's a desk, people. It could be so much worse! They could be shifting to hot desking or an open plan office instead of cubes!

    1. BadWolf*

      We moved to an open workspace from cubes (and formerly offices). One person retired rather than move. Some people still complain, like they think we’ll suddenly move back to cubes. This is it people, deal or leave.

      1. Lumen*

        I once had a nightmare that my company took out cubes and switched to open plan. So I do get feeling uncomfortable with change and how your work environment impacts you. I get that many people ‘move in’ to their cubes with lots of personal items and decor, and it’s annoying to move it all. But even in my dream, I knew that whining about it wasn’t going to change things. Plus, who knows? The new area may be a better environment. But not if they bring all this negativity and pettiness!

      2. JeanB in NC*

        I would probably retire (or find another job) if my company went to open plan. It just would not work for me.

    2. Awkward anon*

      We’ve had people threaten to quit over the possibility of moving desks! The one man was supposed to get moved behind a woman and the two hate each other- as in they’ve had screaming matches. They both threatened to walk out if they were seated near one another. (Their backs would have been to one another, but that didn’t matter.) It’s insane!

      1. Eye of Sauron*

        I kind of think I would have put them next to each other (facing!) just to get rid of the both of them :)

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      She’s upset because she’s just too busy to spend an extra few seconds to walk slightly farther to the bathroom? What a lovely combination of busy-bragging and TMI.

      1. Lumen*

        Yeaaaaah I honestly just told her that maybe moving desks would force her to adopt some healthier habits.

        I love the term ‘busy-bragging’ by the way. I’m so adopting that.

    4. Let's Talk About Splett*

      My company hired a guy to work out of another office. He was flown in to our office to meet the team and do some training, as the dept admin, my director asked me to arrange for a cab to get the guy to the airport to go home.

      We had a contract with a cab company at the time where you call and tell them when & where to pick people up, and they send the driver they send – pretty standard, right? This guy called the main office line from the airport, asked to be transferred to me to complain that the cab driver didn’t speak English. The cab that he didn’t pay for and got him where he needed to go.

    5. Oxford Coma*

      I move every time the music stops, I swear. I’ve moved seven times in the past two years. And every desk is worse–fewer drawers, broken locks, wobbly uneven walls. I’m basically Milton Waddams.

    1. fposte*

      Whoa, some epic joy in the comments. The story about the angry temp who on her last day put fish in the microwave, turned it on for way too long, and left the building is appalling and delightful.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      The knitter in me is twitchy that they called knitting crocheting. Two needles, yo!

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Not only do I cook fish in the microwave at work, I don’t even eat it I just throw it in the trash. Then I go back to my desk and eat a ham sandwich.

      Ha, this one is my favorite.

      I have cooked fish in the microwave. MUWAHAHAHAAA

  138. Environmental Compliance*

    Found out recently that my old position is still unfilled, with build season now fully in swing, I’m sure that the person covering my position (plus her own) is overwhelmed. But this person is also the department director, and does the hiring. Apparently no one’s been hired because she “just doesn’t like these people, they’re not EC”. I’ve also heard that she’s starting to get informally investigated for less-than-decent workplace behavior (the yelling, rudeness, aggression, refusing to help people that come in to the public service office that she directs…). The permits I used to handle in about a week are now delayed by nearly 6 weeks. The public is angry. The contractors are angry. Related departments are getting twitchy. And the director is still adding in all these new services and programs, though the health officer overseeing her is telling her to back off until she’s actually hired someone to *do* these programs.

    She also has been making comments to a few people (that we both now mutually are friends with, and somewhat work with) that I was like a daughter to her and she misses me….but she hasn’t contacted me at all. Made me chuckle a little bit.

    She’s like a freight train and I think she’s about to hit a wall. I’m hoping that it’s not as bad as it could be and she takes it to heart as a learning experience, but from what I experienced with her, it’s probably going to be everyone else’s fault and she’s going to end up thrown out of the position entirely. That would remove anyone who’s trained to do those permits entirely from the department, and I’m not sure what the county would do with that (I think technically it’d pass to the state guy, who’s already overworked as is).

    Feel bad for my old coworkers to deal with all the stress, but also incredibly relieved to not be in that toxic mess any more.

  139. Dee*

    How would you go about applying to two jobs in the same organization? Both speak to different skills that I’ve been building (one is in teapot events management, and one is in teapot fundraising for example), and I think I could make a strong case for either. It’s a small enough organization that they would notice.

    1. CM*

      I’d send in separate applications for both and in your cover letter or email, note that you’re applying for both positions and have experience with both roles.

  140. It's bananas*

    My co-worker and boss are friends. She said that when he is stressed out, she tells him in a joking manner, “I’m not wearing any panties.” They then go back and forth and joke around with one another.

  141. Ingray*

    One of the employees I manage is on her 3rd or 4th PIP. (I’m not sure because I only started managing her a few months ago.) She came very close to getting fired about 2 weeks ago, but after a meeting with HR where the director of the program we work for advocated for her, she was given another month to get things together.

    She came into my office yesterday to complain that she didn’t get a raise. I…. don’t think she grasps the seriousness of the situation?

    1. AeroEngineer*

      Some people just don’t get it.

      We had a guy who came in, and didn’t get it for the whole time, even though it was said to him that they were not going to renew his contract. He still didn’t get it even on his last day (luckily he left on his own volition, so it was less painful than needed).

      Supposedly he didn’t feel part of the team, and he thought he was amazing and could do no wrong. In reality he couldn’t do the simplest of tasks, and would get super defensive and ears closed when he received any sort of feedback.

    3. CAA*

      Well … how serious is the situation really? She’s on her 3rd or 4th PIP and apparently has not suffered any serious consequences. It sounds like she’s rightly concluded through observation that your company repeatedly threatens to fire her but never follows through.

      What did you say to her when she asked about the raise?

      1. Eye of Sauron*

        This is what I was about to say. The OP’s organization has taught her and likely all of her coworkers that there isn’t a consequence for less than desirable behavior or work results.

        She can’t really be blamed at this point not taking things seriously, because they aren’t serious.

        1. Ingray*

          I’ve been here less than a year and 4 people in her position have been let go during that time due to performance issues, so she certainly should be aware that it happens.

      3. Ingray*

        I explained the process for giving out raises – all of our raises are merit based, up to a certain % determined each fiscal year, generally given after the employees annual review and based on the previous year’s performance. She told me she didn’t think she’d gotten a review last year, which isn’t true. I looked into it and she did have a review and was recommended for a raise by her previous manager, but the big boss nixed it due to her poor performance. Since her anniversary date is approaching she’ll be due for her next annual review soon, I told her we’d see then but reminded her again that reviews are based on performance.

        I agree the “3rd or 4th PIP” is a little ridiculous. To be fair, she is really good at certain aspects of her job, and she has had periods of time where she did fairly well. However, even if you don’t think that you’re going to be fired, it’s still a little crazy to be to think you deserve a merit-based raise when you have clear performance issues.

      4. Natalie*

        Yeah, it seems like the company doesn’t grasp the seriousness of the situation. She seems to have grasped it perfectly.

  142. Anon for This*

    Our busy season is coming to an end, and my boss always does debriefings when it finally slows down. He has asked us to think about whether we have any feedback to help him improve his management style. There are a lot of great things about him. He is flexible, a good listener, wants everyone to have a good experience working with our company, and is a kind person. My major concern with his management style is that he tends to undermine me and my fellow editors. We have company policies and a style guide, and all the editors try to be really consistent in applying the policies and style rules. However, a bad trend has developed. A few writers have caught on to the fact that my boss has a soft heart. If one of us tells them to revise their work, instead of making the changes, they will call or message my boss on Skype, give him a sob story, and he eventually caves and tells them they don’t have to comply with whatever we asked them to do. These writers now basically ignore anything we tell them to do, as they know that all they have to do is complain and they will still be able to collect their entire payment without actually having to submit a piece that conforms to the client’s specifications/in-house style rules. We do not send work back for minor things like typos. If we are asking for a revision, it’s because the writer totally missed the mark.

    Would I be out of line to use the term “undermining”? If so, what would be a better way to discuss this issue? My coworkers and I have discussed it, and we feel that it lessens our credibility with writers.

    1. Happy Lurker*

      I wouldn’t use undermining when giving feed back to your boss, but maybe weakens or compromises your position as editor. That’s a bit too wordy, but let the boss figure out you mean undermine.

      One caveat is if you have an *amazing* relationship with your boss and you know they will not take it poorly.

      Actually, as I reread your comment, your last line is perfect. Your credibility with the writers is diminished when they know they can go around you to the boss.

      Good luck.

  143. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

    TWO MORE DAYS and I’ll be done with my degree! I cannot wait to focus on something other than writing papers.

  144. i'm on BEC mode*

    Any advice on how to deal with a “workplace martyr”? When she gets invited to meetings and consulted on things that are peripherally her responsibilities, she makes sure to tell us all that she’s SO BUSY and cannot possibly make it but she will try for our sake. When she’s not invited to these types of peripheral/consultation meetings, she complains that she’s excluded and marginalized within the organization.

    Many of her complaints are valid, but they are also problems that apply to the rest of us in this organization, including me! We’re a non-profit organization – OF COURSE we’re all busy and overbooked! I am fully in BEC mode and am having a hard time dealing with her. Unfortunately, I work very closely with her on about 60% of my projects. Halp!

    1. animaniactoo*

      When she’s not included to a meeting have the reply be “Sorry, you’ve been pretty vocal that you’re too busy to come to meetings like this and it wasn’t urgent to have you there. We can invite you going forward, but if you could just stick to a yes or no on your availability for specific meetings that will clear up any confusion.”

  145. LQ*

    Just had a hellish meeting, basically how do we try to fire about 6-7 people/an entire department. After went into the office I’m in to hide and try to not cry. Boss came in and was surprised I was worried about my job being hit as a part of the fall out from this. He reassured me that I’m pretty stable, but I’m still worried. It’s been nearly a year of this (to be fair to him he’s been dealing with this for about 6 years) so I’m worn down pretty hard out of all of this. And all of it plus it was my birthday yesterday and what did I do? Had hard shitty meetings and worked late. So I’m just feeling lonely and stressed out.

    1. Lumen*

      I really hope I’m misreading and there haven’t been 6 years of regular upheaval and layoffs. If that’s true, consider how long you can reasonably tolerate working in an environment like this.

      I think on Captain Awkward it’s called the Sheezlebub Principle (named for one of the regular commentors): If things stay exactly as they are, will you stay another month? Another 6 months? Another year? Another five years? We often stay in situations that are destructive because we imagine/assume they ‘have’ to get better, and suffer all the emotional and physical effects.

      You deserve better. Please do something nice for yourself this weekend if you are able!

      1. LQ*

        No, the problem isn’t regular upheaval and layoffs. The problem is actually no upheaval and no layoffs. It’s a lot of nothing happening. We are finally since I’ve come on board, at the point of acknowledging and addressing the problems, but that means we need to fight a battle and prove that nothing has happened. This is definitely going to get worse before it gets better. And I think I’ve set out sort of what my expectations are (I think about 18 more months (I’m in government, we work REAL slowly)) but I think I also need to let my boss know that. Part of this is a lot of people who (quite reasonably) would leave because the other group is doing nothing and then the other group gets to blame the person who isn’t here any more and then you loop back. So I’m trying to stick it out long enough to demonstrate the problem sufficiently to get it addressed. But it’s hard.

        1. Lumen*

          I am honestly relieved to hear that this kind of chaos is NOT the norm in your job, that would be terrible – especially since it is hitting you so hard!

          The fact that it is in government makes it all make a lot more sense now. I’m sorry you’re struggling with this – but it sounds like your focus is on doing the right thing, and getting your department on the track it should be on. And that’s wonderful.

          But it is hard. :[ And it sucks that it was your birthday and you’re going through this. I really hope you get a massage or a cupcake or a movie or whatever it is that would make you feel like you did something nice for yourself. You sound like a responsible person who knows how to handle the situation… even when it sucks. So you DEFINITELY deserve something nice.

      1. LQ*

        Thank you! I just arraigned dinner plans with a friend so I’m looking forward to that at the very least. And it makes sure I leave work at a decent time today.

    3. Teapot librarian*

      Ugh, I’m sorry to hear this. Coincidentally I just had a conversation about shitty birthdays. There’s a Jewish holiday (sort of holiday) called “second Passover” that happens one month after the first day of Passover. I hope you can have a second birthday to make up for yesterday!

      1. LQ*

        I like the idea of make up holidays in general. A very nice idea. I’m going to have a nice fancy birthday (mother’s day but with a very good friend) brunch on Sunday so that will be my second birthday.

  146. anonymous for this one*

    I need advice on how to approach a recruiting situation:

    I work as a manager in a very high stress environment. We are understaffed, have been for quite a while, and that’s not going to change any time soon, despite my requests to my own management. Outside companies who know the kind of work we do verify that they’ve never seen such a small department running this kind of function.

    I am very well paid to undergo the stress, as are my team members. However, I am extremely worried about how dangerous this is (huge potential for very expensive mistakes) and I keep my eyes open for opportunities.

    Last December, I interviewed for a similar job that would be properly staffed. The hiring manager and I really hit it off. I shared with her my reasons for looking. It didn’t pay as well, though, and I wasn’t as alarmed by my situation as I am today, so I didn’t keep going through the interview process. Hiring Manager and I expressed our mutual disappointment because we really, really hit it off, and kept in touch.

    Fast forward to this week: I’m really alarmed at the amount of work and opportunity for error. We’re being asked to do even more, and do it faster. And I see that the Hiring Manager has re-posted that job, and I’m in a better place to consider the job, even with the presumed pay cut.

    Here’s the question: what do I say to Hiring Manager? I haven’t talked to her in a while. I try to imagine a phone call or email, and they all sound like, “Hi, I’m more desperate than before.” What kind of wording would you use to start this conversation up again?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      What about something like, “My circumstances have changed and I’d love to be reconsidered for the role if you still think it would be a good match.” ?

      1. Anna Held*

        Perfect.

        And I’m sure you’ve done this, but document document document at current job. Make sure you’ve put in writing “this is a potentially catastrophic situation which can lead to XYZ due to ABC, here’s what I recommend”. Then cc everyone and keep a hard copy for yourself at home. I don’t know what work you do, but CYA.

  147. Oxford Coma*

    My company is bursting at the seams, and people are being tossed anywhere a desk fits. There is currently a shoving match regarding multiple departments wanting the same space. Department A needs two cubicles for permanent full-time new hires. Department B is claiming that they need all available space for the student interns that start next week and will be here until August. Department B also has a permanent full-time employee who has two desks, but she “needs” those because her work “straddles disciplines”.

    The unreasonable department hogging all the room? It’s the Lean Procedure Department.

  148. BabeInTheWoods*

    I recently applied for an internal position at my company and received my offer yesterday, however, it was done very oddly. This is currently our company-wide review season and raises are a standard 1%-2%. My new boss took me into the company cafeteria (completely public – people were refilling their water bottles and getting coffee around us) and presented me with the offer letter. The letter said no salary change and my new boss told me that my current boss would handle the salary increase so I would be paid more during the time I was waiting to move over to new boss’ team. Today I had my review and current boss had no idea that this was the plan (I believe him when he says that) and my salary increase was 3.5%. Because of the way this was handled (in public and salary increase unknown to me at the time), I had no opportunity to negotiate my salary. My question is can I come back after having signed the offer letter and ask for more money? I was hoping for at least 1% more which is still somewhat below market.

    1. fposte*

      I’m not sure I’m following–is the 3.5% just for the position you’re leaving, or are you getting 3.5% more on the new?

      In general, if you’ve actually signed and returned the offer letter that says “no salary change,” I don’t think you can negotiate. If you’ve just received the letter and not given it back, then you can; just because your boss hands it to you in public doesn’t mean you have to hand it back right then, or without a discussion. You can say “Thanks, let me look at at after lunch!” and then you can set up a meeting for discussion if something needs discussion.

      The exception to the “in general” is if the part I’m not getting is something employer-wide, where the fact that you’re internal would make a difference.

      1. BabeInTheWoods*

        Well, I have signed and returned the offer. I was sort of put on the spot and really didn’t handle it as well as I wish I would have. The 3.5% is what I’m getting for my current position and when I transition to the new position in a couple of months, my salary will remain the same. The 3.5% is on the higher end of our standard yearly raises (or so I’m told) so maybe it’s not worth the capital it would take to bring up the fact that I’m disappointed by it. Thank you for your response.

  149. Science!*

    How do you deal with workplace gossip when it sometimes feels like your entire field is gossipy? I’m in science academia, but getting out soon. Recently all the faculty and trainees (which is me) went on a retreat/symposium which required a 7 hour van ride and I was the lucky trainee who was in the car with three faculty (none of whom are my supervisor/PI). I sat in the back and tried to bury myself in a book but I heard more than I wanted about one faculty member’s post-doc who was troublesome. I also heard them talk about research assistants and other things. As another post-doc, I felt uncomfortable speaking up about how I thought it was a conversation I shouldn’t be a part of. And academia as a whole is just sooooo gossipy! I’ve never been in a lab where there wasn’t a degree of gossip, including with the PI.

    I’m getting out for various reasons, but I’m not sure of other departments aren’t as bad? Maybe there is no way around workplace gossip? How do you stay out of it without isolating yourself in a department?

    1. Indigo a la mode*

      Bland politeness is the key here. If they ask your opinion, say something benign like “Oh, I don’t want to comment on something I’m not a part of” or “That’s not really my business, so I’ll stay out of it” – bonus points for the gentle reproof at their gossiping.

      If you’re on the outside of it and they’re really saying egregious things that could hurt someone’s feelings, you could step in with “That seems private, can we talk about something else?” or “Gosh, if that was me I hope you wouldn’t talk about me like that.”

      But yeah, gossip is pretty insidious within most, if not every, office. It’s great that you want no part in it…shows a lot about your character.

    2. Hope*

      Usually in a situation where you can’t escape, you can just appear to listen(or really not listen) without commenting or involving yourself. . Sounds like that’s basically the approach you took, which is often the best you can do if the people doing the gossiping rank above you. Gossipers tend to like having an audience, and sometimes will just assume you’re fine being their audience. If you can remove yourself from the situation, then do that whenever you can. Take note of who is actually doing the gossiping, because now you have valuable information about who you can and can’t trust.

      And to be fair, it sounds like maybe these faculty were just doing some venting, which sometimes you need to do, though they definitely shouldn’t have been doing it around the peer of the person they were venting about.

      As long as there are people, there’s likely to be gossip–it’s not going to matter what department/etc. you work for. Some have less gossip than others, but I don’t know anywhere that’s had none. The main thing is to not participate or seek it out.

  150. Indigo a la mode*

    Light battle: I work for an IT consulting firm. A couple months ago, my team got moved the the opposite side of the building we used to work on. Over here, they seem to like to be mole people, and often leave all the lights off. (It’s an open-plan office.) If I come in later, like 8:45 or 9, and the lights are off, I acquiesce, but if I get here first I turn the lights on. Generally that’s worked out, but today (lights on) somebody waited til I was in a meeting and shut all the lights off without mentioning it to anyone.

    I hate working in the dark. It causes worse eye strain (we all stare at computers all day), it makes me zone out (I catch myself staring blankly at the bright windows), and it’s not very professional when HR or company leaders walk guests around the office (3-4 times per day). And I mean…we’re in an office during work hours, and that generally means lights!

    What’s the best way to approach this? Should I ask for a ruling from HR (who sits on the edge of the Shadow Land and grumbles about the lights-off habit too)? Compromise on a lights-on-lights-off schedule? Turn on the lights and then break off the switches so that it’s bright forever?

    Thanks!

    1. Irene Adler*

      Are you able to have your own lamp that illuminates your area to the extent you’d like?

    3. Beancounter Eric*

      Ideally, management and building maintenance would look at the lighting and adjust to suit as many as possible.

      I don’t have time today to find the info, but many if not most offices are way over-lit. That is a big cause of eyestrain. If all the overhead fixtures in my office were working, I’d have to wear sunglasses because of the brightness.

      Spend a “few” dollars (or whatever currency is appropriate), and buy task lighting to suit you….or ask your company to do so.

      OttLite is very good – pricey, but good.

    4. Max from St. Mary's*

      I’m going with the idea that light should be the default state, so talk to HR. If there’s a pushback, then ask the company to provide you with an appropriate lamp, you shouldn’t have to spend your own money to make your space conform to what’s really an office norm.

  151. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    Attire question – feelings on leggings under skirts?

    I’m large and decidedly hippy, which makes finding clothing for the bottom half of myself a pain. Skirts and dresses are much easier to manage than slacks, as they have fewer potential failure points in terms of fit, but they come with drawbacks of their own. In particular, I 100% cannot reliably find hose or tights in my size and I’m not willing to go fully bare-legged underneath, both for modesty and comfort reasons. Typically I wear solid, unremarkably-colored leggings underneath my skirts. With long skirts, and in the winter when the leggings+socks can visually double as thick, solid-colored tights, this isn’t an issue — but in the spring/summer/early fall, when I’m wearing more knee-length skirts and knee-length or calf-length leggings, I’m unsure if it dresses-down otherwise appropriate attire. My office is business casual, but trends to the dressier side of that category.

    For example, I might wear something like this outfit with calf-length black leggings like these.

    There aren’t a lot of women in my office for me to subtly pattern my clothing choices on, and I’m the only woman of size in my office, meaning that I have to make some different clothing choices from my colleagues.

    1. Indigo a la mode*

      Is there a reason you prefer calf-length to full-length leggings? If your office is a little dressier, calf-length leggings might be a little informal, mostly because I think they can read a little “young.” I’d probably go for full coverage. But if you’re more comfortable in calf-length because of the heat or whatever, and you have nice dressy flats, you’re probably fine.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Mostly I think full-length leggings look odd with light summer wear, especially when paired with open-toe shoes.

    2. KayEss*

      I used to do that, as a plus-size woman who is also taller than average. My offices were on the casual end of business casual and no one ever complained, but I usually switched to slacks when there was a big serious meeting or something.

      I also ultimately stopped because I got the distinct impression that wearing skirts was making the men in adjacent tech-focused departments I had to work with take me less seriously. :(

    3. Lumen*

      Bigger bodies deserve to feel comfortable and look stylish too! I will write it in the sky!

      I think leggings under skirts look nice and solve the ‘hose are terrible’ problem. So I say go for it. If it’s a problem, someone will take you aside or they will treat you differently enough to notice. If they don’t, assume it’s fine. Your ability to focus on your work more than your legs is more important.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Hell, I’d wear hose if I could ever find it in my size! But in my experience, hose sizing completely falls to crap after you pass about a 20 in pants sizes, and I’m well past that threshold. I’ve gone as high as a (supposed) 7X in hose (when I wear a 3-4X in most everything) and it was still too small.

        1. Lumen*

          I’m just biased because I haaaaate hose and tights. I find them so uncomfortable and much prefer leggings. I really hope you just find some styles that you rock. Then you roll into work with so much badassery that no one can think anything but “DAMN SHE LOOK GOOD.”

    4. LDN Layabout*

      I think longer leggings + up to about knee-length skirts are the sweet spot for business casual.

      Longer skirts and shorter leggings look more casual to me, for some reason. If the skirt were below knee length, I’d find wearing leggings with it strange? And shorter leggings feel more like gym gear?

      The outfit you posted I’d wear without leggings and I think leggings make it more casual? I think it’s because I think shorter/more tunic like dresses pairing them with leggings makes it more top and bottoms (even if the leggings aren’t worn as trousers) but longer dress and leggings counts as double coverage and I would think wearing two pairs of bottoms looks…too casual?

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Well, I can’t really do without leggings — it’s a matter of thigh chafing as well as overall modesty. Gotta have some kind of individual leg covering, and hose just do not seem to be made in my size.

        1. LDN Layabout*

          Leg covering essential or is it the chafing? (I can commiserate on both)

          For the chafing I wear what are seem to be called comfort shorts which are just tights material but shorts length (They fall to lower thigh/knee-length).

          Wear are you getting your tights from? I’m a UK 26 (which I think is US 24) and 5’10 and it is a struggle to find tights that fit but it’s just about doable but it took a lot of trial and error…

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            I’ve tried buying from just about any brand I stumble across whose sizing chart is willing to contemplate the existence of women over 250lbs. Mostly I wind up buying online since stores don’t bother stocking (no pun intended…) those sizes.

            1. Library Land*

              Have you tried Undersummers by CarrieRae? They are a dream for me! You can get them in varying lengths, fabrics, and cuts – and of course patterns!! My skirt and dress game took a huge step up when I found them.

              They range from Small to 4X and have some styles in 5X. I’m plus size (usually around a 2X or 3X) and I think they fit pretty true to size. You can have them showing under your clothes but I always wear them so they are not showing. They last pretty well, I’ve had some for two years now but my summers are only 3 – 4 months long.

              I would say they’re very high cut on the stomach (I roll them most of the time). The cotton ones have a tighter band at the top which is uncomfortable for me. The polyester ones are very comfortable and my favorite. Hope that helps!

          2. The New Wanderer*

            I can’t recommend plus size options but I also wear comfort shorts under skirts and dresses. I wear leggings on occasion (in colder weather) and I wouldn’t object to them for business casual, but style wise I would say comfort shorts > full length leggings > capri length leggings.

        2. Cookie Monster*

          Thigh chafing is the absolute worst!! If you wanted to try something that is a non-clothing solution, I find Lush’s “Silky Underwear” powder works miracles – I rub it into my inner thighs and everywhere else that chafes and it works most of the day.

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            I’ll give it a look! So far my thighs have proven sufficiently thunderous to defeat all non-sartorial solutions to the chafing issue, but I’m always game to try new products.

            1. Lumen*

              Sorry, off topic but *stands up and slow-claps for ‘thunderous’*

              It just made me think of Jenna Maroney from 30 Rock: “My whole LIFE is thunder!”

              Also LUSH powders are pretty wonderful.

            2. Max from St. Mary's*

              Also might try Body anti-chafing balm, it’s a solid and applies like a deodorant and has really helped me.

          2. Paige*

            I will second the Lush powder recommendation, as someone who’s US 26-28 and knows the chafing struggle well. That stuff is amazing.

            Another thing that can work is wearing a pair of men’s boxer shorts under the skirt if you can’t find short leggings–it’s so much easier to find larger men’s sizes.

    5. tights that fit*

      i hope this is helpful and not annoying- have you tried welovecolors tights? i’m a size 24 and swear by them.

    7. JeanB in NC*

      I’m not sure I would wear leggings with that particular skirt (dress?) but it’s darned cute! As a heavy woman myself, in summer I definitely wear capri leggings with my skirts or dresses, but none of my skirts are below knee-length. Usually only a few inches of the leggings actually show. If your skirts are longer, I would agree with someone else here about wearing bike shorts or something instead of leggings.

    8. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      A shorter (anything that hits above the knee) and leggings seems very school-girl to me. Otherwise, I think skirt/leggings look fine.

      And if it’s helpful, womanwithin dot com has hose if you want to attempt to find some. I just checked and their hose goes up to size 8x. They only have larger sizes. I buy a lot of my casual stuff from their (tshirts/jeans).

  152. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    Thought I’d share some history I learned at work: why one coworker (Mary) has a retraining order against another (Ed), and both still work in the department.

    Mary had a fiance, and they broke up. As a rebound, Mary started dating Ed for a short time. Ed fell HARD. Mary broke it off with Ed, and started talking to her ex again. Ed was unable to deal, and started stalking her and any other women in the department in an effort to be close to Mary. After Ed showed up at Mary’s house (and a lot more, but that was the culmination), Mary got a restraining order against Ed.

    Mary hasn’t left because she’s got a great job (aside from Ed), and they’re paying for grad school. Ed hasn’t left because he’s still pining after Mary. Management/HR for some reason hasn’t encouraged Ed to leave – no idea. Ed isn’t shunned by everyone, though at least some would like to, because he’s demonstrated a degree of instability and they don’t want any issues.

    Yes, I’m job searching. Have next week off, plan to do a bunch of applications.

    1. flyover*

      That sounds like a good idea — seems like things could go really bad at that workplace.

      1. Indigo a la mode*

        Seriously, that’s ripe for something like an office shooting horror story. Hopefully HR is monitoring that situation very, very carefully.

        2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

          Not that I’m aware of? I think it’s been fairly stable for a while, so hopefully it’ll stay that way. Ed’s a likable guy, and if he got some help with whatever’s going on in his head he’d be pretty good. I don’t really know Mary at all, she’s been helpful with some work stuff but reserved. I’ve been told that she’s very nice. Basically, I’m playing dumb.

    3. Mediamaven*

      I’m sorry, why on Earth can’t they just fire Ed? If I was Mary I would be furious! That is a ridiculous situation!

      1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        You are assuming a healthy work culture. That is not the case. I would assume Mary is unhappy about it, but she’s still here. I’m playing dumb, so not asking.

    4. k.k*

      Is it a toxic workplace in other ways? I’ve never worked anywhere where stalking a coworker wouldn’t be grounds for termination.

      1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

        It was toxic, has improved from what I’ve been told. (I’m new.) Definitely not healthy. If you’re curious, I posted last Friday a goodbye email that was both hilarious and terrifying at the same time.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Well, if Ed is violating the restraining order, Mary can take it up with the courts.

    6. Observer*

      Playing dumb and looking for a new job sound like EXACTLY the right move. Ed should have been fired, even if Mary had left.

  153. Jaid_Diah*

    I work for a Federal agency which is branching out into telework for its customer service reps. They are in the process of re-organizing the units so there will be seats available to the CSR’s coming in one day a week. In the meantime, the CSR’s who are going to work at home were moved to the other side of the building before they can go to class and set up their laptops.
    My issue? My unit was kicked out of our seats to make room for these guys. We were told it was going to be for two weeks, then, oh dear, they weren’t finished with the re-org, so it’s another two weeks and now it looks like it’s going to be an ongoing thing.
    My unit/department doesn’t even belong to the same org as the CSR’s. It sure is good optics for the department manager to support the other area, but my unit hasn’t gotten anything out of it. We don’t even have keys for the bins in the new cubicles, so we have to go back to our old ones to get stuff. I’ve had to move seats three times so far, and none of us have encrypted e-mail or working phones on our desks.
    It’s so petty, but I just needed to vent.
    I wish you all well and hope you have a great weekend!

  154. SA data nerd*

    Tips for maintaining appropriate boundaries with a team as they get closer? I manage a team of 3, with all 3 coming onto the project over a period of 6 months; it’s now almost a year later, and the team members are transitioning (to varying degrees) from new/stiff to comfortable but professional to (now) a little too comfortable with each other in ways that are starting to impact the work. People get teased a bit about personal things as well as work habits/foibles, they leave pieces of the work they don’t like for someone else because, “You like to do ___”. They also tease/talk about the “other” team in our small office (a separate issue, and seemingly a result of the organizational structure here–it almost guarantees clique-ie-ness). Everyone is under 25 if that’s relevant, and it’s either their first or second professional job. Given their demographics, I know part of my job is to instruct them on “how to behave in a professional workplace”. My priority is for them to continue to work well together, but they seem on track to just get closer and closer, and I can foresee issues with the work we’re doing (and have seen some small ones already) if that happens. I’ve managed to mostly maintain my boundaries (though that itself causes slight friction at times, I think because it seems unnatural to them, and they might be taking it personally). I think I might need to have a larger conversation soon about boundaries and professionalism in the workplace and how those standards do need to be maintained, even as people become genuine friends–I also want to emphasize that while friendship is nice, the work comes first. In a nutshell, I’m struggling with finding the language to talk about how teams work together over time–what that should/shouldn’t look like, what can happen if you aren’t careful, that sort of thing.

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      They’re in process of forming a clique, even if they don’t realize it. Yeah, you need to nip it in the bud. I’m fairly sure that I’ve seen a post on here about how to address cliques, so that might be helpful if you can find it.

  155. Bee*

    I have a situation involving job titles that feels somewhat petty but that some coworkers are taking quite seriously.

    I work at a llama ranch management company. I was hired a few years ago as a ranch hand because, despite my small farm management experience, I needed llama wrangling experience before I could be promoted to a junior ranch manager. Two other ranch hands, Thaddeus and Rupert, were hired shortly after I was. At around the same time, a smaller ranch management company was acquired which included two people, Penelope and Jacquelyn, who received a demotion in title from the more specific “llama wrangler” to the more generic “ranch hand”, but who were soon promoted to junior ranch managers as befitting their actual duties.

    Then the company had some financial issues which led to a hiring freeze for two years. Ranch hands were promoted through the ranks (there are a handful of levels) but no new ones were brought on. Now, Penelope and Jacquelyn are still junior ranch managers (it’s a position one stays in for a number of years), and Rupert and I have been promoted to junior ranch manager, but Thaddeus is still a ranch hand, likely due to being shuffled between managers several times from all of the reorganizations meant to help with the financial issues. Despite the promotion in title, my work is still primarily that of a ranch hand because we are understaffed.

    Things are looking better financially for the company, and someone finally realized that there were almost no ranch hands left because most of us were promoted, so the company announced that it would finally hire new entry-level staff. Great, until I was told by a mid-level manager that new llama wranglers will be getting the “junior ranch manager” title right away because they intend to make ranch management a career—even though they can hardly tell a llama from an alpaca and have no other related experience—and the “ranch hand” title is now only for people who don’t intend to continue to management.

    Penelope is annoyed because she has worked several years to get to be a junior manager. Thaddeus is particularly annoyed because the new hires now have a higher title than he does. Rupert and Jacquelyn haven’t weighed in. I am somewhat annoyed but don’t want to make a fuss for fear of looking petty, but it does seem odd to me, and it’s yet another change from high up the ladder that affects us but that we have no say in.

    So, is this situation serious or petty? I can understand why Thaddeus thinks it is serious, because of the apparent ranks, and Penelope will likely end up managing some of the new staff that have the same title as she does. I just want the new staff to finish their training so I can finally get back to management.

    1. All Anon*

      Is this a title issue only or do these level assignments convey more compensation as well? On the one hand I remember being really mad that my brother and I were allowed chewing gum at the same time. I was 9 and he was 7 and it seemed like he should wait 2 more years. From that perspective its petty. Perhaps, though, if we reframe the question to a more general one around what are the current levels, what do they mean for job duties, required skills, compensation and resume building it’s less petty. Employees should generally be able to ask that question in the context of what the levels mean for them and their current assignments as well as forward growth. If you think about it like that and not the chewing gum example it’s not petty and they should address it.

      1. Bee*

        I don’t know what the compensation for the new people is. Previously each level of ranch hand came with a small raise, and a promotion to junior manager came with a larger raise. This will likely a tricky topic to ask about. I don’t know what anyone else’s compensation is, plus we all have wildly different backgrounds and work experiences, so it would be hard to compare.

        My understanding is that almost no skills are required for entry level. Some of the new people have an undergraduate degree in llamas (here’s where the metaphor breaks down), but that doesn’t mean they have any experience with wrangling. That’s why this change is so odd to me; I would expect someone with the title “junior ranch manager” to have some ranching and some managing experience. It’s why I wasn’t hired as a junior manager despite my managing experience, because I knew nothing about llamas and ranching.

        1. All Anon*

          Well, you’ve answered the question with the observation that with each title came a form of raise so at least until now titles and comp are intertwined. So, yes it matters and it’s fair for each person to ask what the job scope is for the various levels and what it will take for them personally to move to the next. It’s fair to say I have been at X level and X comp for X amount of time and without making direct comparisons to any one person I now see entry level folks starting further up the food chain. I’m assuming the scale has moved up and I’m wondering what that means for me.

          1. Bee*

            But that’s the thing, we don’t know if the new folks are further up the food chain. I was told that the “ranch hand” titles were being dropped in favor of “junior ranch manager”, but that these new people would still have ranch hand job duties and would still have to do llama wrangling before switching over to management. I don’t know if the compensation matches the titles or the duties.

            I’m going to bring it up with my supervisor on Monday. I just spent two and a half days wrangling a particularly smelly llama that I was very much unprepared for because that ranch’s senior manager gave me very little prep time and background info. That’s why I’m concerned about appearing petty and concerned about job titles when there are more serious issues at stake. And unfortunately, I don’t think my supervisor will know anything about this change in titles, but he’d at least be able to bring up the issue higher up the management chain.

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      I categorize this as “should be petty, but it actually does matter quite a bit”. If they’re going to redefine duties that way, then they need to adjust titles across the board.

      1. Bee*

        >If they’re going to redefine duties that way, then they need to adjust titles across the board.

        I think this is why Penelope is annoyed, since she’ll be managing one of the new people at one of her ranches soon.

        There are so many issues we’ve had to take to higher management recently, though, so some of us are worried about bringing up yet another issue, especially one like this that appears petty.

        1. Anna Held*

          Clarifying the org chart is not petty. This touches on job descriptions, pay, reporting structure…and illustrates who you’re working for.

          I’d be concerned that you have so many things to take to management. And now they’re devising their own dictionary? Why call someone a manager because they intend to manage one day, not because they do? I intend to be queen one day, do I get to use that title?

  156. Danielle*

    Hi I have a question.

    I work in an office environment within a division that has four branches on my floor.
    I’m the lead project support on a project that’s been ongoing for over a year now. My project manager is a very kind woman that I work closely with.
    Now I suffer from an anxiety disorder but I haven’t disclosed it to anyone in the office before this besides my boss because, well, it’s not something I feel comfortable discussing or having people know about me. I disclosed it to my project manager back around Christmas-time because I felt it could affect my work and I thought she should have the full information because I didn’t want her to think I was taking sick days just to slack off or something.
    Since I disclosed it to her she has on a few occasions now offered me these ‘alternative’ options that she thinks could help me. She also frequently gives me unasked for advice because she clearly thinks she can be my office mom (in a bad way).
    1. She’s offered me these herbal calming candies when I asked if she could please do a presentation for me because I was having a panic attack. I took one (along with my actual sedative) because I was in the middle of a panic attack and didn’t really have the full ability to say no and get into it. She tried to later give me the whole container which I gave back to her saying thank you but I don’t really subscribe to herbal remedies.
    2. She’s offered me breathing techniques and sent me links to breathing techniques. Breathing techniques are actually helpful but I have a therapist and don’t need her telling me that.
    3. She often gives me advice on say my clothes, which I don’t really want or ask for.
    4. Most recently, she bought me a magnetic bracelet (with a buddha bead on it) and gave it to me saying it was to help with my stress. I was caught fully off guard and so I accepted it and said thank you but immediately put it back in it’s box and it’s been sitting on my desk.

    After incident 4 I reached out to MY manager (who is also the project sponsor) expressing my concerns and how it makes me uncomfortable. He spoke to me privately about it, but mostly it boiled down to “if it really makes you uncomfortable I can speak to her for you, but I think you should let it lie for now and see if anything else happens, and let me know if anything else happens” because he thought that no matter what action I or he might take, it would ruin our ‘good relationship’, especially since she’s obviously coming from a place of kindness and not malice. He also verified with me that I was not concerned that she would disclose my anxiety to anybody else (I’m not – she’s not mean or anything), and seemed to think that since I wasn’t concerned about that, that the rest was fine.

    I don’t really know what to do at this point. Do I let it go until there’s another incident? Do I speak to my coworker directly and ask her to please stop? Help.

    1. ContentWrangler*

      Could you talk to her and frame it as preferring not to talk about your anxiety disorder at work, including discussing potential “treatments”? It might help soften it if you just tell her that you’re trying to stay focused on work at work and don’t want to spend time discussing your anxiety.

      Not sure what to do about the additional advice such as what to wear. Some people just love to hear themselves give advice. Best option is to just be a really boring receiver of advice. Respond like “Interesting suggestion” “I’ll think about that”. Hopefully she won’t get as much out of it then and will stop on her own.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Speak to her directly and tell her “I appreciate your trying to look out for me. The thing is, when you do that it makes my anxiety a bigger component of my job – this is something I need to work on separately with my therapist. It’s counterproductive for me to have you recommend strategies for dealing with it even though I know you’re coming from a place of concern. Please be aware that I AM actively addressing this and taking the steps necessary to keep it under control. The only support I need is just for you to be aware of it and not think that I’m slacking off because I had to take a couple of sick days if or when that happens, okay?”

    3. Sky Bison*

      You did good :)

      I think if you want to try again being more firm, tell her to BYOB it *might* work. But I also think it’s both ok and smart to document these incidents with times and dates. Having a record isn’t a bad thing and if you don’t need it then you don’t need it.

      I am going to say your ‘good relationship’ isn’t worth much if its only on her side. But please go back to your boss if it happens again. I agree I don’t think your coworker is mean, but I think she’s misguided. You’re cutting her a lot of slack for some frankly, pretty egregious behaviour. The next person she tries this with may not be as generous. You’re not asking your boss to fire her, just advise her.

      1. Danielle*

        Sorry what does BYOB mean in this context? I’m pretty sure you don’t mean ‘bring your own beer’ haha.

        1. zyx*

          Maybe it’s a typo for “MYOB”: “mind your own business.” I can’t think of any other meaning of BYOB than the one you already thought of.

  157. Leela*

    I have a friend on the job market and wanted to ask a question for him that he asked me and even as a former recruiter I’m ambivalent.

    He’s fresh out of school and is pursuing game design. He hasn’t had an industry job yet but has worked on a few projects and having looked over his stuff (he’s a 3D modeler) he’s talented enough to get hired if the company is taking juniors. Here’s his question. On the projects he’s worked on, he did maybe…75% modeling (texturing, animating and everything that comes with it) and 25% game and level design. He wants to know about keeping his resume to just the art-related tasks or putting in the design accomplishments as well.

    Generally I’d tell someone to keep their resumes focused on what job they’re looking for and not include additional information, but seeing as 1) he’s so junior it’s not taking up much valuable real estate 2) in a very competitive industry, it might set him apart from 3D artists going for game jobs who don’t actually have design experience, and 3) depending on the studio, he might be wearing enough different hats to warrant this, I’m tempted to tell him to include the design tasks. My main reasons for usually discouraging that are it can make someone look a little unfocused like they don’t know what they’re after (definitely not what a recruiter who wants to fill a job with a solid candidate wants to think about the resume) and that they might worry he has less art experience that someone who was solely focused on art.

    I wanted to crowdsource this one, please let me know what you think!

    1. CAA*

      I would include the game and level design tasks, but make sure to explain in the cover letter what his real interests are and that these are additional skills. I agree with you that it’s confusing to get generic resumes from students where they claim expertise in the entire end-to-end process and it just makes them look desperate for any job, but a good cover letter can mitigate that.

    2. KayEss*

      He should have two separate resumes, one focusing exclusively on his 3D work, and one showing his flexibility. He should then use whichever seems more appropriate for a given company/role. Small studios may find flexibility and that experience advantageous, larger ones don’t necessarily want their specialists having design aspirations.

    3. dr_silverware*

      Put it on–as long as it doesn’t seem like he’s angling for a design job instead of a art job. He’s got a portfolio for his art–I can only assume–so the resume and even cover letter can serve to say, “he’s also a well-rounded worker who’s a jack-of-all-trades enough to be able to his art job even better.”

    4. Videogame Lady*

      I’d tailor the resume and portfolio to the specific job he’s applying to. If he’s going for a junior animator position with a large studio, for example, the animation part of his experience should be front and center. Animation-related tasks (modeling, texturing, rigging, working with art pipelines, etc.) get second billing, but unrelated things like level design can be left off. An animator isn’t going to be doing level design in 99% of roles, so his experience there is irrelevant.

      If instead he’s applying at a smaller studio, or for a position that specifically calls out a generalist, the level design would warrant a mention, but not a big one. Even then, I’d focus on how the related experience informs the main experience. As a rough example, “my work as a level designer on AwesomeCollegeGame made me a better animator by allowing me to experience my animations as a player sees them, in the context of the environment and through an over-the-shoulder camera, which then lead to me making ChangeX which ultimately made for a more immersive gamespace.”

  158. Alldogsarepuppies*

    Can someone help me fit in a knowledge gap. What exactly are unions and how do they work? I had thought they were for having workers in similar employment bargain for benefits (through discussions and strikes) but also see things on this site and others about people disputing hirings/firings through their unions, and employers defaulting to union leaders on decisions. Are there some jobs that a union is a requirement so the union is effectively the boss rather than the place of employment?

    Sorry if its really ignorant question but google doesn’t help as much as I hope.

    1. fposte*

      You’re right in saying they’re for workers in similar employment to advocate for themselves. That advocacy can definitely extend to how promotions and firings happen. And yes, there are jobs where a union is a requirement.

      However, I wouldn’t say it’s like the union is your boss instead of the employer (for one thing, the employer still pays you); one big thing it means is that in the generally at-will U.S., being in a union means you have an actual contract, and the union is kind of like your agent or lawyer in making sure the contract is being followed.

    2. LQ*

      I work for a government agency and we have a union so hopefully I can help a little.

      Unions sort of do 2 levels of things, the high level stuff like the overall contract (what you thought initially they did), it’s the stuff that makes the news most of the time (and I think it is the really important stuff they do).

      They also do a sort of in the trenches kind of work. So I have coworkers who in addition to their work as Regular Government Employee are also union stewards. If an employee has a problem with management (or a fellow employee) they can file a grievance and that goes through a mediated process with both union and management at the table. Ideally I believe it creates a more fair level playing field. (My experience is not that with my union dude.) This would also be if someone gets fired the union will be at the table to mediate that conversation.

      On the hiring side your union contract may allow for stuff like bidding and bumping. So if another job with my classification opens up in another agency I could bid on that job. Technically because I am Class6 I should be able to do the Class6 job anywhere and so I would be able to get that job. Also if my job went away and they tried to lay me off I could bump someone else who was a Class6 but hadn’t been around as long as me. So I would get their job and they would get laid off (or bump someone with less seniority than me).

      (Fair notice, I love the big picture/high level stuff my union does for the most part, negotiating the contract etc. But they get way to involved in the day to day business of things. Grievance process is not for things like my boss told me I have to actually do my job, but that’s what a few people use it for. There are also people involved with the union who are sexist bullying assholes who then use that position to be sexist bullying assholes because your process to deal with them is impossible by them being in those roles.)

  159. Precisely*

    My husband recently applied for a job, when he got back from the interview he said that the interviewer told him to take the weekend to consider whether he could handle the lifestyle adjustment the job would demand and to get back to him by Monday. The posting was a salaried position ~$65K and emplyees were expected to be in the office from 6am to 5pm regularly but also sometimes expected to stay late. I said that was crazy but if he was interested in the job and thought he could handle the hours he should let the interviewer know that he thought he could handle the hours but the pay would need to be higher for those expected working hours ( for reference I work in the same field and make ~100k although I have more experience in the field). The interviewer replied that they were only interested in people who were excited for the position and not my husband, my parents etc. think pushing back on the salary was the wrong move. I think he dodged a bullet and that this company was exploitative. Am I crazy?

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      No. Your husband is being is being asked to work for a rate that is equivalent to <$20/hour when you're making $50/hour, assuming you work the standard 8 hours/day.

    2. Cruciatus*

      Bullet dodged. They wanted his soul. They weren’t going to stop with just the terrible hours and low pay for the field. How about no benefits? If you complain then obviously you’re not enthusiastic enough! No. No. No.

    3. Irene Adler*

      Is there some compensating perk that will be the payoff for all the long hours? Like some huge bonus tied to the success of the company?
      Sounds like they are a start-up or are in start-up mindset. How long have they been in business? Have to wonder what the turnover rate is.
      I think they are asking a lot of their employees.

      1. Precisely*

        Yes they are a start-up, and my husband said all the other employees he saw at the interview were fresh out of college, the perks were supposed to be that it was interesting work in an interesting field a very start-up mindset. He was approached to interview for the position at a meetup he leads so I think they are probably having problems filling the position or keeping it filled.

        2. AeroEngineer*

          Ahhhh. My company is shifting from this to a normal mid-size company. This mindset doesn’t pay the bills, and has worn me out pretty fast, at least way faster than I expected. My company loses employees pretty fast as well (A lot of people leave between 1-2.5 years, with a couple at <1 yr).

          I am now planning (actively applying) on going to a large size company which does not have this "perk".

          I will only call it a perk from now on if it is a really cutting edge, can't do it anywhere else, type work, and that I would get paid more. I feel like I am just too old to deal with this mentality anymore (and I'm relatively not even that old).

  160. Talvi*

    Archivists! Do you have any advice for a new grad applying to jobs in archives? (e.g. things that are particularly helpful to have on resumes/cover letters, etc.)

    For context: I’m in Canada, I’m willing to relocate just about anywhere in the country, I do have some archives experience (in the form of student jobs/summer jobs), and I did two specializations (Archives and Records Management as well as Library and Information Science, so e.g. library-based historical collections are also something I’m looking at).

    1. PB*

      Make sure you list the standards you know (DACS, EAD, etc.) and software you’ve worked with (ArchivesSpace, Archivist’s Toolkit, etc.). Point to specific achievements, if possible, especially from your jobs. Saying “Processed a collection of over 200 linear feet” is more meaningful than a bullet that says “Processed collections.” If you haven’t had that experience yet, don’t sweat it. We were all starting out once!

      For interviews, do make sure you’re up on current hot topics. I’ve hired a couple archivists in the last year, and it’s noticeable if someone can’t talk about MPLP (More Product Less Process) or have no idea what “discovery” means in the context of libraries and archives.

    2. bb-great*

      I’m not sure if this is the same for Canadian government and academia, but I just sat on a search committee for the first time and you really do need to address every point in the job ad. Don’t make us look for it! Especially for entry level jobs, there are so many applicants, it helps to make our job easy. Being flexible about location and exact duties will help a LOT. Good luck!!

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’ve never hired in Canada, but I have hired archivists in the US more than once. I agree with PB that you want to include the standards you know and the metadata standards as well, also include software. If you can, get experience, because you’re competing with people who have it probably. These jobs are super competitive in the US and I’m pretty sure also in Canada. Be willing relocate.

      Other things I would do are: Make sure you are writing a cover letter for the job you are applying for. I’ve read many cover letters where I thought, “Okay, but this isn’t a Music Archivist position, so why is this a Music Archivist cover letter?” Look at the job ad and tailor your letter.

      When interviewing, know your stuff. If you tell me ArchivesSpace is a metadata schema, I’m going to think you don’t have the experience you say you have. This is part of why getting some experience is so critical. It is also okay to confess that you’re not sure what something means. Most fields have lots of terms of art. We do, too. I never begrudge someone who doesn’t know a term, I do worry when they use it wrong or misidentify something.

  161. friday fran*

    Is this strange or alarming? I am not personally affected by this but someone else is.

    A new service business is about to open for paying customers. The people who will be working there at various levels have been doing prep work, training, staff meetings, and socializing together (these activities might be combined). I do not think any of them are being paid yet. Would this be a normal expectation for someone who will be a supervisor or manager but is not an owner?

  162. Amalthea*

    Hi all,

    I verbally accepted a job offer earlier this week, and am waiting on the official paperwork. I have an in-person interview scheduled elsewhere that I need to cancel once I get my official offer letter. Except for the actual phone interview, we have communicated via email. Can I cancel the interview (plane tickets already bought) by email, or do I have to call?

    Thanks!

      1. OtterB*

        I agree call, but if you don’t reach the person, I’d suggest leaving a voice mail AND emailing (saying in each that you did the other), since it’s time sensitive.

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Huh. I totally disagree.

        I don’t think it matters at all. You won’t burn a bridge with your choice of communications media, especially given that all your communications have been through email. This is a thing that happens, not a hyper-sensitive issues that must be navigated perfectly lest it destroy your entire career.

  163. idontwannahearit*

    i am a job hopper and i know it’s terrible, but i’m high level and in a field with rapid growth. my officemate drives me so unbelievably bonkers with her borderline personality bullshit and our director refuses to let me move to a different office.

    is this worth quitting over? i’ve done and said everything that everyone would suggest to keep a chatty coworker from talking to you (straight up ignoring, headphones, “i’m busy and can’t chat right now,” getting up and leaving with my laptop every time she turns around to talk, etc). but this is 10000x worse than just chatty because she’s so paranoid everyone hates her and is out to get her and she’s about to be fired and etc etc etc

    1. animaniactoo*

      Have you tried “I know you like to talk but it drives me bonkers and I need you to talk less to me because talking THIS MUCH to me is the thing that will make me hate you.”?

    2. fposte*

      If you have another job lined up, it could be, but I sure wouldn’t quit over that without another job in the wings.

  164. rear mech*

    Any forensic accountants or fraud examiners here who would care to tell us about what they do on a daily basis? I’m considering retraining after 7 years outside the professional workforce (10 year old astronomy degree and continuous employment in specialist retail and service industry). For more background, I’m an adhd person who has struggled with office jobs in the past but is very good with numbers and patterns. I’m also super motivated by problem solving and figuring out “wtf happened here” given random bits of information from various sources.

  165. Hiring time!*

    I interviewed candidates today for the vacancy in my office, and it was all I could do to keep myself from telling one candidate how much I loved her. She did something risky, which was to criticize things my office has (not) done, but I agreed with her 150% that they need to be done, so instead of being insulted, I wanted to hire her on the spot. More first-round interviews to come, and then a second round!

    1. Irene Adler*

      Great feeling isn’t it?
      Be sure to do the second round of interviews. Don’t rely solely on the first impression. IF she’s the one, she’ll only look better after the next interview.
      Had a bad experience with someone who really impressed at the interview. Turns out she had a dark side. Should have gone with my gut and hired someone else.

      1. Hiring time!*

        This is exactly why my boss insisted on a second round of interviews. (I had expressed an opinion that I didn’t think it was necessary–this is only my second time hiring, and I thought that we had done a two-round interview the first time around because of the number of applicants that made it through the HR department screening–and she was pretty harsh in her response to me, even though as soon as she explained the rationale, it made perfect sense.)
        We also had another candidate who was very good and I look forward to the second round with her, one candidate who didn’t show, and one candidate who just didn’t understand the nature of the job.

  166. UnfortunateProblem*

    So, this is somewhat work related and somewhat personal, and definitely a weird problem I was hoping to get some feedback on.

    I mostly like my job and I’m really good at it. I was recently promoted to director level. It’s a small non-profit with four full-time staff who work very closely together.

    Well, a new full-time person was hired about a month ago to fill a vacancy, and she’s perfectly qualified and will likely do a lot of great things in that role. Problem is, her first name is the same as the woman my husband had an affair with, and seeing and hearing that name every day is taking a serious toll on my mental health and my marriage. It’s not like I can NEVER hear that name again and I break down every time I do, because it’s a relatively common name and I already interact with people with that name sometimes. It’s never bothered me until now. I think it’s because before it was fairly infrequent, where now it’s like, all day every day.

    How do I deal with this problem? Should I look for a new job? Any advice or feedback is appreciated.

    1. caledonia*

      Have you tried counselling therapy? The last part, where you ask “should I look for a new job?” is problematic because as you also note, it’s not like you can avoid a name forever. It’s not the actual woman herself but a lot to do with the after-effect of your husband’s affair.

      1. SoSo*

        I was thinking the same thing, and I don’t think that looking for a new job would necessarily be the answer. What if you did find a new job but someone in that office had the same name too? You may not be escaping it by leaving. The fact that just hearing that name repeatedly is having that big of a toll on you isn’t a good sign. It might be best to talk to someone professional about it, if you haven’t already. Definitely take care of yourself and your mental health!

      2. UnfortunateProblem*

        I’ve been in therapy off and on since the affair discovery, and it’s slow progress. The problem is pretty immediate for me, and it’s affecting the quality of my work at the quality of my home life. I’m somewhat afraid that it’s going to impact my work enough that I’ll be let go, or that I’ll blow up my marriage and file for divorce just to get some relief. I don’t know, it’s a tough problem. I’ll keep at it with the therapy and see if it helps.

        1. caledonia*

          Well, I would make therapy more “on” than “off” and bring this situation to their attention so they can help you processing it.

        2. Observer*

          Either you need to be more intensive with your therapy or find a new therapist (or end your marriage.)

          Leaving your job is just totally not an answer. You say it’s a common name. What are you going to do the next time you have to work with another woman who has that name?

    2. Let's Talk About Splett*

      Yeah, sounds like therapy is a good idea. In the meantime, can you start thinking of her by her full name? Instead of Jenny in Marketing, she’s Jenny Smith in Marketing.

      1. UnfortunateProblem*

        It’s not really about thinking her name in my head. It’s more that I see it in print and hear it said aloud all day long. We communicate a lot, and much of that is via email or through a project management platform. So, it’s basically a constant barrage of “Sarah” (not her real name) all day long.

        1. Let's Talk About Splett*

          I don’t know if you went to therapy after you found out about your husband’s affair, but I’d seriously consider going back/now if you can. I have gone through trauma in my life, and for various reasons I did not go to therapy in the aftermath. I thought I was handling my trauma well because I got up every day & went to work and and paying my bills and enjoying myself again . . . turns out because I didn’t deal with it with a therapist my problems became a much bigger deal that a therapist did help me deal with it.

          It sounds like maybe you are going through something similar? You kind of let the cold turn into pneumonia because you thought it would go away. There’s always, always going to be a ‘Sarah” you have to deal with, and a good therapist will help you with coping skills.

    3. Oxford Coma*

      Had a cubicle neighbor with this exact problem. (It only came up because she stumbled over what I thought was a very simple name when the new person started. I must have looked at her oddly, so she mentioned it.) She told me that she mentally reassigned the affair partner a non-name, i.e., “that b1tch” or something similar. Try to disassociate the name with the bad person, though I know it’s easier said than done.

      1. UnfortunateProblem*

        This isn’t a bad idea. I’m not sure how well it would work for me, because I have a bit of a gut reaction to the name. It might take a lot of re-training my brain to change that. Maybe I should just think of this as free exposure therapy.

        1. SoSo*

          Desensitization techniques might be helpful, and it could be something you could do on your own?Repeating the name over and over until it loses it’s meaning/association (I’ve actually had this done in my own therapy and it was fairly helpful), looking up others/famous people with the same name, assigning the other person a different name in your head, etc etc.

        2. Admin of Sys*

          Retraining from the other direction, maybe? Is it a common enough name that you could just try to overload with unrelated-to-the-trauma data? Like, google the name, read random article about people with the same name, watch videos about people with that name, etc. (note: since the name causes stress, check in with your therapist before doing this!) Eventually, I’d think the name would become meaningless, in the same way that repeating a word 400 times makes it meaningless noise.

        3. animaniactoo*

          This might sound really really odd… but here goes.

          My birth mom’s name is Gail. Every time I saw it or heard it, I had a flinch reaction kind of association with it. And then – I watched Top Chef. And one of the judges was a woman named Gail. By the time the season was over, so was my flinch reaction – I now had enough *positive* association with the name that I could relax about it.

          Is there a potential avenue for you here? Something where a major character or someone you don’t know in your actual life but see regular stuff about who you like/admire/whatever that you can create a positive association with the name to override the current negative?

          You could also try every time you see co-worker’s name, take a deep breath and picture co-worker in your head. Help yourself re-associate that way?

  167. Alicia_of_Blades*

    First-time commenter here! I have a long story with a question in the end.

    My degree is in corporate communications and I enjoy internal communications. I worked for a large company for 3 years out of college. I took my current job because we ended up moving. This job is in publishing. I really want to get back to communications. I have a total of 8 years out of college experience. We are moving again next month.

    My current company is absolutely amazing, but it’s just not the field I want to continue in. I’ve been applying for jobs as a manager, but I’m just not getting anywhere. I’ve had 2 interviews and each one said they went with someone else with more experience in A or B. Now, I have experience in both of those things, just not as much as them, I guess. I feel like being a manager is the logical next step for me, both in title and as far as projects I want to be involved in (change management and crafting communication strategies). I’m worried that 5 years at my current company has completely stalemated me and I’m going to be ‘stuck’ as a specialist. I’m not sure if I should keep trying to get a manager position or go for a specialist position and either work my way up in that company or stay for a year and then try to get a manager position elsewhere. Any advice?

    1. Hope*

      Apply to both kinds and see what you get. If you really want a manager position, don’t stop trying for it, but it won’t hurt to open up your job search.

  168. just a bot*

    A coworker down *cough* the hall has *cough* a constant cough *cough* and it’s been *cough* going on several *cough* times a minute *cough* for over *cough* a week. I *cough* feel like I can’t *cough* concentrate for *cough* more than *cough* 20 seconds at *cough* a time.

    1. animaniactoo*

      My *cough* allergies *cough* and I *cough* sympathize *cough* with you. *cough*.

      (In all seriousness, you might express concern to them that they’re coughing so much and ask what they’re doing to try and keep it under control? Personally, I’m switching off coughdrops with sucking candies.)

  169. Grayson*

    I applied to two positions I felt qualified for, and as most folks can sympathize with, I was let down when I didn’t hear back from either. I’m thinking I need to sit down with AAM’s improving your resume and cover letter section.

    1. Buu*

      Hang in there! It’s always worth giving your resume another round of polish. Good luck!

    2. Alianora*

      I’m sure it can’t hurt to revise your cover letter and resume! But also, it’s (sadly) pretty common to not hear back from a position you applied for. Obviously I don’t know your specific circumstances, but two no-replies are not necessarily cause for alarm.

  170. Lauren*

    Best tips for adjusting tone?

    My review said, I am combative. After some reflection, I realize that I’ve taken on the emotional toll of being the office therapist and everyone’s bad experiences with a few leaders have made me snap at them and its been noticed. I’ve been told a goal of mine should be to become an agent of change and to polish up how I speak to those leaders. I’m already in therapy to control anxiety attacks through emotional regulation, but control isn’t working. I need to find a way to let go of the anger I’ve built up, which in theory will help me with my tone. As a woman, I basically wanted to cringe / cry / quit instantly after hearing this feedback – cause bias – but in my case, its warranted feedback based on at least the 3 instances that were relayed to my boss. Since I’ve basically been silent for 4 years, the 3 instances have happened in the last 6 months or so. I could go on about male colleagues degrading people daily and screaming at 4 employees until they each cried (but no consequences for them), but I need to let go of gender comparisons and accept reality. I am a woman, and I am being scrutinized more. It is. So turning over a new leaf, new perspective, somewhat grumbling still, but the point is = I do want to stay, and make it work.

    Until I get a handle on letting go of my past gripes based on knowing all this bad stuff, any advice on how to adjust or polish my tone?

    2. LQ*

      Shitty shitty shitty.

      Practical you have to get paid things?
      Smile. Practice until your teeth and jaw hurts. (Again, shitty. This is all going to be shitty.) If you can’t pull off a smile, try a thoughtful head tilt.
      Speak slower and lower your voice but still smile. (Again, shitty.)
      Bring a mug of tea with you everywhere. Take a sip when you feel yourself getting grumbly. It hides your face so a smile or lack of is harder to see. You can have a mug that …conveys something. (Mine says THINK. in small little caps letters. It’s small but every time I’m pissed at someone for not thinking I make sure that is facing out when I take a drink. I’m sure no one else notices. But I do.)
      Take more notes. Write out your grumbles (make sure your handwriting is bad enough people can’t read it). Write reminder notes to yourself on the page. I have a postit my boss wrote for me one bad bad day when a bunch of the people I’m working with kept trying to overrule me on things I was entirely right on. He wrote down something very nice and very empowering (sort of a LQ has my full confidence thing) I have this at the back of my notebook. Just having it there helps. Having something like that can help. (They can get as yelly and mad as they want…I don’t have to yell. I have the confidence of the right people and the knowledge that I’m doing this right, even when I’m wrong I’m going the right way.)

      1. Lauren*

        I folded my arms during instance #3 and he imitated me as if I was huffing and puffing and stuffing my hands under my arms in a dramatic way and yelling my point. My director said I didn’t do that, but I was trying to make myself small by folding my arms when I realized how annoyed he was that I was bringing it up. I was speaking so slowly, I felt like I was stuttering. It doesn’t matter, I need to change. During this post-review convo, I basically had RBF on and I bet that my not enthusiastically agreeing with him is going to hurt me. I have to go in and tell him how much I appreciate the feedback once I processed it and how I hope in a few weeks / months he’ll be able to see that I am trying and taking the advice to heart.

        1. LQ*

          Gr.

          Tea mug? Hides RBF. Lets you be doing something with your hands that’s pretty hard to object to.
          This is shitty. Really shitty.

          1. Lauren*

            Thank you for repeating how shitty this is. I think that is how I’ll get through. Knowing it’s ridiculous for me to be forced to change when none of the guys do. I’m going to try to let go of my anger somehow instead of masking it. Cup of tea is def an option, I really think maybe I should just eat doing these meetings. Sitting silently will also not be good for me, since RBF. This is shitty! Thank you for that.

    3. CM*

      The thing that helped me the most was to care less, as bad as that sounds.
      When I was able to step back and say, “This is just work, it’s not my life,” I was much better able to remain calm.
      The more personally invested you feel, the tougher it is to control your tone. (See also: tips for surviving a toxic workplace, the first conversation in this open thread.)

      1. Lauren*

        This is how I acted for 4 years. I never had to interact with them ever so I was sheltered for awhile. So when I finally do have meeting with them, I didn’t have a filter at all as I am still upset with how they manage people on their teams. I am not taking his offer of coaching from him. I don’t think I do it. I will, however, find another person to help me with my presentations.

    4. Traveling Teacher*

      Have you tried recording yourself? (But not at work! Don’t do this at work!)

      When I’m teaching English inflection and tone, I often have students (who are typically business professionals perfecting their English) do this at home, either alone or with a friend, practicing everything from generic openers (“How are you today?” “Nice to meet you!”) to tougher conversations (work, beliefs, politics, etc). A fun exercise to start with is to find 20 different ways to express, “Oh, that’s interesting.” (happy, sad, frustrated, cheerful, bored, intrigued, seductive, angry…) and then to build from there once you’ve hit on a tone that would be appropriate for the register you’re trying to hit specifically.

      Could you practice generic responses, like: “That sounds difficult”, “Mmhmm”, “Oh, interesting.” as well as longer scripts, focusing on some of Alison’s that might be relevant? She also recently had a really good podcast about tone recently; did you listen to it?

      Another tip some students find helpful is studying a character they identify with from a TV series and trying to imitate his/her way of speaking and interacting with the world. Sometimes, stepping into a character role in a tough situation removes you enough from it so that you can focus on the facts rather than the emotions (anger, anxiety, frustration…) that you might be feeling.

      The first few times students record themselves, they absolutely hate it, by the way. Over time, though, they each find it to be very helpful. After a few weeks, then months, we do milestone comparisons, too, which they usually find to be hilarious/embarrassing.

      Also, on a more personal note, even though the men are “allowed” to be more combative and aggressive (making people cry?! How horrible.), you’ll probably be happier and get better results if you can take a step back overall emotionally speaking so that you can get through the day with less stress. I say this as someone who was once heavily picked on by a boss at a new company for being “aggressive” just for occasionally putting my hands on my hips while speaking with the children (working with 3 year olds is hard on your back!) and also “too serious” (for having the children quietly working for short periods of time at their tables, rather than running amok…so it appeared that they “weren’t having fun”?!) I was shocked because I’m normally praised for cheerfulness and getting along with all colleagues during reviews. This quickly spiraled into a toxic workplace situation where I became the proverbial whipping girl for any problems with teaching, even though I was the most experienced teacher in this department and got very positive feedback from parents. I didn’t leave until the end of the school year, but once I did, it was like a cloud lifted. I’ve never had that problem before or since, so I believe it was really a case of perception. So, I guess I’m saying: if this is strange or unusual behavior that you’ve rarely/never had, maybe it’s just something you have to get through til you can get another, better job? Best of luck to you!

  171. Sweet T*

    Has anyone ever taken a (fairly substantial) pay cut, but been happy with their decision?

    My husband is graduating with his master’s in two weeks, and has accepted a job that will essentially triple our total income. Honestly, my “dream job” is to do something that I can easily master, with good hours. The problem is, most of the jobs that I’m looking at would cut my pay by about 30%. I know in my personal life, that sort of move would make me much happier. However, I don’t want my husband and I’s financial situation to suffer. We are, and have always been extremely frugal and responsible with our money, so I know we would be fine. However, if I stayed at my current job (or moved to a job with a similar income), we would REALLY be able to provide our future children with a lot. Any thoughts?

    1. Guitar Hero*

      Having a mother who is happy and fulfilled in her career would make your children very fortunate! If you and your husband can both agree on a budget that works for your financial goals while taking into account a potential pay cut, I say it’s worth considering.

    2. KayEss*

      What is your timeline for having children? Do you plan to keep working after having them? Would that be easy to do with your “dream job”? Could you transfer easily to your new job/field after a break for pregnancy and infancy/early childhood care, if you chose to do that?

      If you have a “definitely 100% in the next couple years, we’re going to start trying in X month” timeline for having your first kid, it might work better for you to stay in your current job until after the pregnancy. If it’s more of a “well, probably someday,” I would personally suggest that you go ahead and pursue making yourself happy now, because a lot of things can happen between now and “someday.”

      1. Sweet T*

        I would say “definitely 100% in the next couple years” is the plan. While we don’t have it planned down to the exact month, it will definitely be sometime in the next 6-12 months that we start trying to have kids. I’m not sure if I will keep working after having them. I’d say at most, I’d be working part time while my kids are too young for school. I’d consider going back full time once they go to school, but obviously that’s too tough to say for sure since it’d be several years down the road.

        As far as breaking into the new job after having a baby, yes, I think it’d be fairly easy (the kind of jobs I’m interested in are not heavily sought after, and don’t usually require a degree, although I do have my bachelor’s). I tend to agree that the smart thing would be to stay in my job until after I have a baby, but I’m also worried that timeline will be a lot longer than what I expect (I’m young and healthy, and would like to think I’ll get pregnant easily, but who know?) I’d just hate to be stuck here three years from now, still kidless. It’s not a terrible job – I’m well liked and have gotten several raises in my time here. However, my responsibilities keep increasing, and if things continue at this rate, I know I’ll eventually be in way over my head. I know some people thrive on that, but I honestly like having an “easy-ish” job, even if the pay is less.

        Thanks for all your advice!

        1. Hope*

          If maternity leave is super important (or if your job’s health insurance benefits are significantly better than those you could get through your husband’s new job), then I would stay in the job you’ve currently got. Otherwise, I’d say get working on finding an easier job you’ll enjoy more, since if you start trying to get pregnant in 6 months and it takes you longer than 3 months, you’ll still be eligible for FMLA at your new job.

          I took a 25% pay cut several years ago to shift fields into something less stressful, and I am so much happier despite the pay cut. Quality of life is so important.

          1. Sweet T*

            So, at my husband’s new job, his benefits are 100% paid for my the company, which is great. I am actually on my dad’s benefits because I’m 24 (turning 25 this month) and still have a year left to take advantage (my dad’s benefits are great). Once I turn 26, my husband will probably add me onto his, as the benefits are better than what my company offers.

            Thanks for the input. Quality of life is indeed important! I value my emotional health more than having a high paying job that gives me constant stress.

    3. CM*

      I did this! Sure, it would have been nice to have more money — and I was very happy when I eventually decided to switch back to a job that paid market value — but I’m glad I did it and it was the right move for me at the time. Yes, it affected our family finances, but we planned for it so I feel OK about that.

      My philosophy is, if you’re responsible and realistic, do what makes you happy. For you, that may mean thinking about what you want your life to look like in the next 10 years (sounds like it involves children), what that would mean for your expenses, and whether you feel like you can afford that with a pay cut.

      Also, keep in mind that your decision now doesn’t have to be forever. You can change your mind in a year or 5 years or 10 years.

    4. Magee*

      If I’m following the math correctly, you’re husband just accepted a job that will pay 3 times what you are both currently making. So even if you decided to not work at all, your income would still be way above what you are currently bringing in. So if you are able to have a comfortable life now, you would still be able to have a comfortable life with your new job and have money left over for saving. Unless I completely misunderstood what you were saying.
      So I think you would be more than fine in taking a job paying 70% of what you currently make. Especially if that job would make you much happier.

      1. Sweet T*

        Yes, your math is correct. We do have some student loans (no other debt at all), but are very confident we can pay those off in 12 months (with my current income, and his of course), which could turn into 18-24 months depending on the job I took – I think that’s part of what’s holding me back, too, just being eager to attack the student loans.

    5. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      I actually took a pay cut to move from a high-stress position to move to a lower stress position that I actually enjoy. To me, it was worth every penny. I am much more fun and nice to be around for my friends and family because I’m not angry, or emotionally drained, or sick from stress. If you can balance it financially, I say go for it. You and your husband deserve to enjoy your off-time and have as many or as few babies as makes you happy.
      Also, congratulation to Mr. Sweet T on his graduation and new job!

      1. Sweet T*

        That’s my thinking, too! Quality of life is so important to me. I’d rather have a low stress, low(er) paying job and be happy outside of work, than have a high(er) paying job, and be less happy. Thanks so much for your input, and the congratulations for Mr. Sweet T! I’m super excited for him, it’s been a long time coming. We’re going on vacation to celebrate the last week of May!

    6. Traveling Teacher*

      You’ve got some really great advice already! I’ll just add:

      While you’re pregnant or getting pregnant, it really is important to reduce stress where you can. If your current job is putting you under lots of stress/making you unhappy, it could be beneficial for both you and future baby to switch. And, if you’re less stressed, it may even make it easier to get pregnant (I’m not a doctor, that’s just what my OBGYN told me!). Also, have you considered other savings you could build up if you worked a less stressful job, even if it paid significantly less? Would you have more time to do DIY projects that would also save you money? Shop/cook even more frugally? (I’m currently working at a “better paying” job than I had previously, but I’m well aware that sometimes the stress causes me to throw money at problems that I would normally deal with myself for free or a much lower cost, thus bringing me quite close some months to what I was making at my other job…which is discouraging as a fellow frugal-person!)

      BUT, if thinking about losing the money you could invest or save if you leave this job is causing you even more stress or it really makes sense for your financial plan, it could absolutely be worth staying in your current job with financial security for your kids as your end goal.

    7. Thlayli*

      I had a well paid but very stressful and high-travel job before I had my kids. For various reasons I took a 2.5 year career break when I had my two kids close together. I then looked for a more family friendly job. My new job was 17% less money but is very family friendly. No travel, less stress, no expectation of unpaid overtime.

      I was very happy with the switch.

      My kids are a little older now and I have started moving up. I am now earning 97% of my former salary and am in a slightly more stressful role and averaging about an hour unpaid overtime a week. Still no travel. I’m happy.

  172. Victoria, Please*

    I’ve just recommended to a group that they hold a workshop on “Avoiding conflict before it escalates by being both courteous and direct” …a la 80% of the advice Alison gives here!

    Any recommendations for speakers? Pretty sure I can’t afford Alison herself. ;-)

  173. Salty Winter Adult*

    How do you say no in a professional context to someone who keeps pushing? I’m working with someone who is the real life equivalent of ‘If you give a mouse a cookie’, and it’s already gotten me into three hours worth of meetings with Administration and a verbal warning. How do you “hard no” someone who sees a hard no as a red flag, other than avoiding them and anything that they’re associated with?

    (Background: This person (Mouse) is the front person of a group with admirable goals, but the way she’s going about securing cooperation and things feels… sleazy. Think a non-profit plagiarizing small posters and the like?)

    1. CM*

      Normally, you just say no, remain calm and friendly, and refuse to get upset at the other person’s not getting what they want. You just decline to accept their problems as yours.

      But it sounds like your situation is more complicated — you’re getting punished for saying no. So it depends a lot on your role, the role of the pusher, who has authority over whom, and what your responsibilities are. Without knowing more, I’d say that if the people who have authority over you are punishing you for saying no, your choices are probably to say yes, find somebody higher up who can push back, or look for a new job.

  174. Not Your B---- Anymore*

    A coworker at my old job, which I quit a year and a half ago, is begging me to come back and install an update for her accounting software. There’s precedent for the request as I came back to install the last one (like a year ago), but this time… maybe it’s just me, but I’m annoyed. It’s been eighteen months, they hired a replacement, yet she and my old boss are still texting me with questions! And I didn’t even get paid for the last two times I came out, and y’know P, I know you’re a big shot but unless things have changed a lot since I was there, the boss is still the one signing all the checks. Also it’s my birthday week and I was looking forward to kicking my feet up and drinking cocktails in the evenings/weekends, not schlepping over to the other side of town.

    I don’t want to outright say no, because I feel sorry for them and idk it feeds my pathological need to be needed, but… I can raise my price, right? $60/hour, 1 hour minimum, cash preferred? That’s double (iirc) what I’ve charged before, and still half what they’d pay a real IT contractor.

    1. MouseInTheHouse*

      OMG absolutely! You should be getting paid for any work that you do to help them transition. Especially since it’s been 18 months. Your rates are reasonable for a contractor.

    2. Salty Winter Adult*

      Make it a blanket $100/hr, 1 hr minimum. Why not? It’s still lower than a real IT contractor, and it’ll fund birthday drinks.

      1. LQ*

        I don’t know why you’d say a 1 hour minimum. You’ve wasted half a day. I would absolutely say a 4 hour minimum is reasonable. I think most of our contracts have a 4 hour minimum for contractors.

        2. Not Your B---- Anymore*

          Oh my god, I don’t want to spend 4 hours there, I’ve got better places to be on a Saturday! I don’t think the update will take more than an hour.

          1. periwinkle*

            That’s beside the point. You are charging a 4-hour minimum, regardless of how long the job takes. If it takes 4 hours or less, you are paid for 4 hours. If it takes 5 hours, you are paid for 5 hours.

            Since you did not get paid the last two times you came out to help (and stop feeling sorry for people taking advantage of you!), you will require the 4-hour payment in advance with any additional fee to be paid within, say, 30 days of service.

            And this is put in writing, signed by them, before you do any work.

            Just because you were nice enough to do the install a year ago does NOT obligate you to continue providing support, for which you might or might not get paid, ever again. If they don’t agree to your terms and/or in any way, shape, or form imply that they are entitled to your assistance and how dare you not trust them – tell them to buzz off and go have your birthday drink. Maybe have two.

      2. LQ*

        (Sorry that came off as snarkier torward you, I was trying to add on top. Totally agree about the $100 and a time minimum, I just vote higher.)

        1. Salty Winter Adult*

          LOL, I’m not upset. I agree, I just figure that they’d take advantage of a four hour minimum to make them do more.

    3. Boredatwork*

      Set your price at what it’s worth to you to do the work. Also, accounting software is notoriously persnickety. I’d draw up an engagement letter, ask for a retainer, with a set price (TBH $150/hr is a bargain). Don’t forget to bill your expenses, mileage, parking, ect.

      your boss wouldn’t call up an accounting firm and just expect them to come out and do work for free, they shouldn’t expect you to do that either.

      1. Not Your B---- Anymore*

        My old boss is a nice lady but she’s got a lot going on and health issues to boot. I’m sure they didn’t mean to not pay me the last couple times, they just forgot (and let’s be fair, I didn’t remind them, ‘cuz I’m a chicken). But yeah, I’m thinking they need to be put on cash-or-check-in-hand terms for this and any future visits. The software is just Sage, I don’t think the upgrade will be that difficult, certainly within the realm of what my replacement could do or even what coworker could do herself, if she wanted to. That’s half the reason I’m salty LOL, it’s not even something interesting!

        1. ..Kat..*

          I think you should insist on them paying you for this previous work before you take on any additional work. For example, “I am still waiting to be paid $X for work Y and Z. I cannot do any additional work until this is resolved.” They are taking advantage of you.

    4. Rick Tq*

      If you don’t want to do it just price yourself out of the market. Tell them your standard rate is $120/hr with a 4 hour minimum for on-site work M-F normal business hours, and double-time with the 4 hour minimum for after hours or weekend work.

      Add that your first available window is AFTER your weekend so you can enjoy it.

      Make sure you have a signed contract in hand before setting foot inside their door so you have something to take to Small Claims court if they try and stiff you.

      1. Seriously?*

        Although setting the price high might be a good way to get them to stop calling

  175. MouseInTheHouse*

    My understanding with preventing sexual harassment in the workplace is that workplaces (to cover their butts legally) need to be proactive about preventing it. E.g.: If you work frequently with an external partner who is prone to harassing your staff member, Jane, you need to send a different staff person, like Jim, to the meetings, or a lawyer might bring that up in a harassment suit. Does the same hold true for other types of discrimination—e.g. not letting a prejudiced staff member interact heavily with an intern of color?

    We have a 75+ yo staff member, whom I’ll name Barb, who means well but occasionally says some really uncomfortable things (microaggressions) out of ignorance. For the purposes of this question, she’s too important to be fired or have her behavior written up. I often have my interns spend 10% of their time to help with her research or some admin work, but my intern this semester is a WOC like me. I plan to talk to Barb’s supervisor (our department head) about why I can’t let Barb borrow said intern and I’m prepared to justify my case vis-à-vis our company’s commitment to diversity. I just want to know if I have extra leverage in the legal department.

    1. Just a thought*

      I’m not sure that legally you have to send someone else. You could explain that sending her could cause a suit, but I don’t think denying people opportunities/professional development in the name of helping them is a good solution.
      For example, in your first example, Jane is losing time with clients and missing opportunities. This intern would not be getting the same diverse experience of others in the program. They shouldn’t be punished for the external partner’s/Barb’s bad behavior. I think a better solution would be to have a way for the intern/supervisor to handle it when Barb does say or do something offensive, or talk to Barb before to try and prevent that.

      1. CM*

        Agreed, the Jane/Jim example is wrong. It’s discrimination to stop bringing Jane. The solution should be not to tolerate the harassing behavior from the external partner.

        If having interns work with Barb is mainly benefiting Barb, then your plan is fine. If it’s benefiting the intern, then you should educate Barb, warn the intern, and tell the intern that you have their back if something uncomfortable happens and are willing to reassign them or otherwise work it out with them.

        (I’m a lawyer but not an employment lawyer.)

      2. KayEss*

        I agree with this in principle, but I think it’s also important to make sure the intern feels safe and supported. If working with Barb will provide serious professional experience (which it sounds like might not be the case?), is there a way you could speak frankly with the intern about what behaviors she might encounter and how to deal with them in the moment, and clarify that you have her back and she can back out of that situation if necessary? That feels really gross and tricky, ugh.

        If working with Barb is not actually going to benefit the intern and she’s just being handed around as someone available to make copies, etc. I think it’s okay to push back on putting her in that environment. It’s not a great look for your company to have to prime an intern to swallow racist microaggressions because someone highly-placed is considered uncontrollable.

    2. BlueWolf*

      I’m not a lawyer, but I do have some experience presenting on discrimination in employment. The company’s obligation is to not allow discriminatory behavior to happen by punishing the people being discriminatory/correcting their behavior, not punishing potential victims who fit in the protected class. In both of your scenarios (as Just a thought mentioned) you are treating employees differently based on their protected class (Jane, because she’s a woman, and the WOC intern because of her race). In this case YOU would be the one discriminating (even though it sounds like your intentions are to limit potentially offensive comments towards the people in question) because you are limiting their professional opportunities. Discrimination/harassment does not apply only to offensive comments.

      1. Student*

        Agree strongly. I was in this exact position. A woman working with an external business partner who made some unacceptable sexist comments to me during work – he called me a stripper, for no good reason, in front of a room full of colleagues.

        My company penalized me by taking me off the project, and/or requiring I have an escort when around the harasser to act as a corroborating witness (which drove up costs, using two people to do one person’s job, so didn’t work out in practice).

        The harasser didn’t suffer from this. I did! I lost a project that I was good at. I lost recognition for my work. I had to scramble to adjust my job responsibilities and take on less desirable roles. I got branded difficult because I made a complaint and forced them do something about it, and that turned out to be a pain and involve paperwork and money. Now the external harasser gets to take credit for all the work I did before he drove me off the project, uncontested. He is still considered a valuable expert at stuff (that he doesn’t actually understand at all). He gets the high-value customer face time. His career is in great shape.

    3. Nacho*

      I get being too important to fire, but why can’t people point out to Barb that what she’s saying isn’t socially acceptable when she says it? If she really means well, she won’t go off the handle just because somebody points out it’s no longer appropriate to talk about how Mexicans are trying to out-breed us and take over the country, or whatever she’s saying that makes people uncomfortable.

    4. Observer*

      : If you work frequently with an external partner who is prone to harassing your staff member, Jane, you need to send a different staff person, like Jim, to the meetings, or a lawyer might bring that up in a harassment suit.

      That’s actually often a very bad way to handle the issue. You need to be extremely careful to make sure that this switch does not, and is not seen to, harm Jane’s professional prospects. If it turns out that it would be bad for Jane, then you have a responsibility to make the external partner stop his harassment.

      For the purposes of this question, she’s too important to be fired or have her behavior written up

      NO ONE is too important to discipline. If this person really has a pattern that could be considered “severe or pervasive” your company IS going to eventually going to be paying for it. If it won’t hurt the intern not to spend the time with her, then you have all the leverage in the world – it’s the only way to protect the company from a lawsuit.

  176. Stranger than fiction*

    Happy Friday everyone,
    Does anyone know what additional costs would be associated with an employer allowing employees to work remotely from another state? (So within the US)
    I’m sure there’s differences with taxes and health insurance right?

    1. Boredatwork*

      The word your looking for is “Nexus”. Nexus determines whether or not a business has to collect and remit tax in a state or tax jurisdiction. The presence of a remote employee would trigger your company having to do all kinds of new tax reporting.

      Are you the first/only person? Can you tell me where your company is located (state) and where you want to live (state). I can give you a better answer if I know which states were talking about.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        I’m in CA and considering PA. A coworker is considering TX. We currently have only one other remote person in Tx who’s had that arrangement since she was hired many years ago. I don’t want to broach it with mgmt if itd be a considerable expense.

        1. Boredatwork*

          TBH Management will have no clue that this could be a problem. You would be creating some additional filing requirements, like for your withholding taxes, and they’ll have to file a PA state income tax return (as a company) if they’re not already doing so.

          I would just say, that you wanted to check with whomever does your tax returns to make sure this isn’t creating a problem, since you’ll be the only employee in that state.

    2. LQ*

      You have to follows the employment laws of the state the employee works in. Including those taxes, unemployment, workers comp, etc etc. If the state has requirements for things like leave, ot, sick time, parental leave, etc you’d have to follow that for that employee.

      You can always give an employee MORE of stuff. (more OT, more sick leave, better pay) But you’ll still have to follow the tax etc laws of the each state specifically.

      1. De Minimis*

        My employer is located in CA but we have employees in 7 other states. We just follow the CA laws for everyone.
        It’s too confusing to keep all of the other states’ laws straight, and CA will almost always be the most strict. It’s also better for the employees.

        The main thing that gets complicated for us is health insurance–we have some plans that are only available to the CA employees. It got confusing once because one of those providers does have operations in other states, but apparently we are only enrolled in the CA plan for that provider. We had an employee considering moving to another state, but it turned out their current health insurance couldn’t be used outside CA even though the insurance provider did operate there.

        I’ve set people up in new states a few times, and it’s actually not that difficult most of the time. You usually just have to set up income tax and unemployment accounts. It can be more complicated depending on the nature of the organization. You also have to report the person to the unemployment commission of their state of residence [you do this anytime you hire anyone, anywhere], but that’s not hard to do either. States want you to provide jobs and tax revenue, so they usually make it pretty easy.

  177. Manders*

    I’ve had some stressful life stuff going on for the last few years, and lately I feel like I’ve been experiencing mini-burnout. Some days I’m totally in the zone and doing great, but sometimes I just wake up on the wrong side of the bed and everything’s a struggle.

    Does anyone have tips on snapping out of it on those days when I’m driving the strugglebus to Slacksville? My overall work product is good (really, seriously, quantifiably great) so it’s hard to tell if I’m actually struggling or just holding myself to unrealistic standards for how long I should be able to focus.

    1. CM*

      I’ve learned that I’m most productive when I go with the flow — dive into work on those in-the-zone days, and allow myself to have some down time on days when I can’t focus. So my suggestion is, don’t snap out of it. Take a mental health day, go for a walk, somehow give yourself a break so that you can be refreshed and get back to being productive later.

      1. Manders*

        You’re right, I probably should take some mental health days and use my lunch break for walking instead of zoning out in front of a screen.

        Some of the tasks I have to do depend on the day of the week, so unfortunately, there’s a limit to how often I can say “Nah, I’m not feeling this today.” I do try to shift work around so I’ve got a good stockpile of mindless work to do on the days I can’t focus.

  178. Fabulous*

    This isn’t really work related, so feel free to remove if it doesn’t belong… I need some Board of Directors advice!

    I’m on the Board of Directors for a local nonprofit and we’re having an issue with one of our trustees. “Sansa” tried to get one of our long-time loyal members,”Bran,” to quit a committee he was voted into. Bran has autism, but he is an awesome addition to our group and we always try to encourage him to participate where he can. A family member of our Board President “Cersei” overheard Sansa and Bran’s conversation and relayed it to her. Cercei believes Sansa’s actions are because she and her daughter Arya applied to be on this committee too but were not chosen, while Bran was. She believe Sansa used her knowledge of Bran’s sensitivities to try and manipulate him into quitting. I realize this is all hearsay, but Sansa has toed the line previously and I wouldn’t put it past her to do something this egregious.

    Obviously if this is all true, Sansa’s behavior is intolerable. We are thankful that Cercei was able to intervene before Bran made any decisions on the matter. As a result, however, Cercei wants Sansa off the board. Unfortunately for us, our organization’s Constitution and Bylaws don’t outline what to do in this type of situation!

    What we have done so far is having an objective board member reach out to Sansa to figure out what actually went on in this conversation, what were her motives, etc. so at the very least we can elicit an apology from her. Our next election is in August, so if she doesn’t resign in the meantime, Sansa will likely be voted out then.

    Can you think of anything else we could be doing as a board? What types of policies or bylaws do you have in place within your organization to ensure this type of thing doesn’t happen?

    1. CM*

      August is pretty close. I wouldn’t stress about it now, especially since this will take some time to play out. But before August, make sure you and the other board members have the full story. You or your board president may want to talk to them one on one, after hearing from Sansa about what went on.

    2. Irene Adler*

      Censure.
      If you follow Robert’s Rules of Order, you can censure this person. (I can’t find the ruling in Robert’s but this ref explains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censure )

      Can’t really prevent folks from such activities. You might consider holding a session where all board members are educated on proper conduct. This would include not engaging in certain behaviors (like trying to remove/replace members).
      We did this annually with our HOA board. Had our attorney come in and explain what BoD responsibilities were, what fiduciary duty entails, proper conduct and what activities BoD members should not engage in (like promising to lower the dues to get votes when the HOA was underfunded), what laws they needed to follow (BoD must carry out all discussion of Board issues at the meetings. No back room shenanigans).

      1. Fabulous*

        This is definitely an interesting read. We don’t generally follow Robert’s Rules (they get so complicated!) but maybe I’ll suggest something like this.
        My only hesitation to enact Censure stems from Cercei; she has almost had it out for Sansa since Sansa was voted onto the board last year due to a personal dislike of her. Sansa seemed like a good addition at the time, but she has used her status on the board to further her and her daughter’s involvement based on her office rather than on merit. So, really this is more of a “last straw” situation more than anything. I just don’t want it to bite Cercei in the butt because Cercei has been a great president aside from not being able to control her distaste for Sansa!

        1. Irene Adler*

          Might get the Robert’s Rules of Order , Newly Revised In Brief or look into the many chart-type summaries of Robert’s Rules. The charts make it very easy.

          And, might have a periodic educating of the board members, as I mentioned before. Fiduciary duty is a difficult concept for many. Sounds like both Sansa and Cercei need to be apprised of what it entails.

    3. Seriously?*

      If you have no way of getting someone off the board, you really need to add an impeachment clause to your constitution/by-laws. You would still need to get a majority to vote her out and this might not rise to that level, but there does need to be a mechanism of removing a board member who is behaving unethically or not doing their job other than pressuring them to resign.

      1. Fabulous*

        That’s what we want to add to our bylaws, for sure. I’ll be writing the proposal for the amendment to present at the next meeting, and then it’ll have to go to a vote at the election in August. Too little too late…

    4. McWhadden*

      Honestly, since there may be even completely unintentional bias against Sansa by Cersei and you don’t have an impeachment clause (yet) it may be best to wait for August, which is pretty close. I don’t doubt that Cersei has the right read here. But it may be best not to get into the weeds on this one.

      But definitely put a clause in for impeachment.

      1. McWhadden*

        But taking advantage of someone’s autism to try to manipulate them off a committee is definitely absolutely horrible. And if the election wasn’t so close I’d say it needs to be dealt with.

  179. Aleta*

    Paging people who know more about this stuff than me!

    I am newly in a receptionist/admin role, both newly in the role itself and newly in an office setting at all. From payroll’s perspective I’m in the Accounting department, and my supervisor is the CFO, but practically I’m my own little island and do odd jobs for everyone on top of my usual duties (which is reception/phones/office supplies). The entire accounting department is doing a “phone chat” with an outside consultant to discuss our roles and areas for expansion with the idea of improving workflow/seeing if we could add another person/making sure everyone is getting the professional advancement they need.

    The chat is individual and going to be about an hour, apparently. What should I expect, especially since I’m not going to get professional advancement in this role and that’s fine (and I was hired specifically because I was okay just chilling out for a while without pushing for more). Like, I am going to Library School sometime in the near future, which is only actually known to one of the main people who gives me odd jobs, but that’s as much from academic interest as is to Become A Librarian (Or Researcher). I’m not a person that desires fulfillment from my job, though.

    I don’t know, anyone have experience with this type of thing, maybe especially from the perspective of reception?

    1. LQ*

      We’ve done something similar. The people who do this work are experts at it (usually) so you can let them drive the conversation and ask the questions. It’s entirely ok for you to not need to go into a different position, but things like does the person who does this role need to have specialized skills that need training can be a thing too. Like prioritization and time management might come up. And your skills in those areas might be find but they might want to think about not just you but the position.

    2. Fabulous*

      Expect to talk about yourself and your job, sort of as if you were in an interview again except you’re not vying to get the job since you already have it. I just had a chat with my boss’s boss recently and it was mainly just that – what are my main duties, what does my day usually look like, what is my background, what do I see myself doing in the long run, how can I incorporate things I like doing into my duties, etc. My convo was only around 30 minutes, so I don’t know what to expect for an hour’s duration, but I imagine they just added extra ‘pad’ time in case it runs long.

      In terms of reception specifically, you can talk about liking research and wanting to figure out how you can incorporate that into your job. For example, taking on small projects such as renewing vendor contracts by researching market rates and comparing the options, etc.

      Good luck with your conversation and hopefully it can be beneficial for you!

  180. Question*

    So, I’ve never worked with someone who recently had a child, but some of the letters recently about breastfeeding made me wonder… is the time spent breastfeeding somehow made up during the day? Like if someone spends a half hour a day breast feeding, that’s more of a break that a lot of people get at work… do they have to work extra, pump during lunch, just get the hours despite not working…? I’d be curious to know how this works, I had never thought of it before.

    1. Magee*

      As someone who is looking to have a child within the next year, I was wondering this same thing. I assumed the time would be taken out of lunch but I bet it varies with each company. I could also see the pumping breaks to be seen the same as smoking breaks. Some companies require you take that time out of lunch, some don’t care. Anyone have any specific examples from their company?

    2. fposte*

      “The ‘Break Time for Nursing Mothers’ law does not require pumping breaks to be paid. However, if your employer already offers paid breaks and you use those breaks to pump your milk, your time should be paid in the usual way. If you need extra time beyond what is usually allowed for these paid breaks, then the additional time does not need to be paid and your employer might ask you to ‘punch out’ for the additional time.”

      Obviously this is for non-exempt employees–the law doesn’t apply to exempt employees in the first place, but they generally would have to pay the employee for the full week regardless of pumping.

    3. OldJules*

      Some take our laptop with us into the pumping room to work while said activity. Typically if you are non-exempt, 15 minutes break is paid. But if you have efficient dual pump, pumping bra and dress strategically, you’d make it in 20 minutes and a 5 minutes break is easy to make up. I was exempt but have a very busy schedule and so I tote my laptop with me everywhere. I was lucky that I could leave my pumping bag in the room and it will remain safe. The biggest problem is not that 20 -30 minutes you have to take to pump, the biggest problem is trying to mesh schedules with the pumping room availability. When you have one room and more than 2 moms needing it, the logistics can get bad. I’ve had days where I borrowed people’s office to pump because it’s been hours and the room is fully booked. I know some moms who pump on their commute to and from work.

      1. Friday*

        This is true – I’ve already run into someone else pumping during my booked time before and at that point I’m pretty much stuck waiting for her to be done. If that ever interfered with me making a meeting on time, I’d let my boss know why but so far it hasn’t.

    4. Friday*

      It totally varies by company and job, I’m sure. Anecdotally, both times I’ve been pumping I’ve been salaried. First time I was a manager and didn’t have a laptop but did have email on my phone. I’d take three breaks a day and pay attention to emails but wouldn’t be doing other work, and the job was a pretty solid 8-5 for me and my team.

      Now I’m an individual contributor who takes her laptop to the pumping room and works. My job is still usually an 8-5 but every few weeks, there will be a Thing of Urgency that pops up that finds me doing a couple hours of work at home on a weeknight or weekend. The 5pm exit is a hard stop for me though because I have a schedule for my infant – have to pick baby up from daycare and nurse him in quick succession before 6pm – so work has to be put on pause until I can get home and deal with that first.

      I also have been a “lunch at desk while working” person for all my pumping days. No boss has ever complained about my hours or dedication to the job at hand due to pumping.

    5. dawbs*

      THe requirement is that breaks have to be allowed, not that breaks have to be paid, and not that time doesn’t have to be made up.

      When I was pumping, I was working 4-10’s, with a miserably long commute, and was salaried so my day when baby was young looked like
      6 am-Get up insanely early and feed baby.
      7:30 am-pump in car the rest of the way to work (FTR, this is less distracting than the radio, and I was covered and not messing w/ things while driving; I’d arrive at 8 and put the milk in the fridge)
      10:30 am-hook up pump and pump in my office while doing spreadsheets, making phone calls (ugh, phone calls while trying to keep pump from being heard), and sending emails–basically anything I can do on my computer for about a half an hour (when people who didn’t need to know asked, they were told I was having a mid-morning snack)
      1:00-lunch–pump without having to send emails and make phone calls! Locked in office though, because hooked to a pump.
      5:30-hook up and pump in office like above. Mid-afternoon snack.
      7:30/8pm-arrive home and feed the baby.

      The entire process of hooking myself up to the pump only took about 5 minutes, once I got used to it, and I was able to do it all hands free.

      This was all a delicate balance to have milk at the right time all around, and it was a PITA. ANd the hours shifted once the baby got bigger and nursed less (and actually, it was more often at first, now that I think about it, because at 6 weeks, when I first went back, it was every 2 hours–for a short while in there, we did have me work a 1/2 hour later and count me as taking an hour lunch, because I took 2 lunches of 1/2 hour each–I had forgotten about that.) but I can’t even imagine how much it would have sucked if It wold have involved me having to make up those hours–as it was, I was damn lucky to have the office and not have to go across the street and to another floor to use the nursing room. My boss was able to work w/ my schedule and I was able to be productive during that ‘downtime’. Although I DID hate making phone calls, because there’s that ‘chugga chugga chugga chugga’ in the background.

    6. Thlayli*

      FYI if you’re not in the US the laws can be different. You can google the law on breastfeeding in your area.

  181. Sylvan*

    Artists of AAM: Do you have any short, 101-level advice or links on juried competitions? I haven’t done this in years. Most of the people entering the competition are professionals. I don’t want to stick out.

  182. Was I sloppy?*

    Old situation but would like some feedback. About a year ago I applied through an external recruiter to work for a small ad agency in a big city focused on pharmaceutical advertising. They were big on data and tech and finding new HIPPA compliant ways of connecting consumers to medicines.

    Interviews went well, 2 rounds of in -person interviews. However one of the lasts steps is they wanted to me to fill out a formal application. OK I thought, no problem. The external recruiter then sends me a PDF with a generic job application. The kind you would fill out for a basic retail job, but this one was clearly one they found on the internet as it said “insert company name here”. It had all kinds of odd irrelevant questions for the field, they wanted to know my high school, my last few addresses, list both my maternal parents, 3 personal references (professional was on their too but THREE personal??), etc. just odd stuff for an advertising position manager level.

    The application was a bit confusing. I had made a small mistake so I put a simple line through it and continued on (The application was 7 pages total) then sent it to the recruiter. Fast forward a day or two the client was “concerned” for my “enthusiasm” for the job as they needed someone “buttoned up” and professional and asked me to redo THE ENTIRE THING, and to put “n/a” instead of leaving spaces blank for things that did not apply.

    At the time told the recruiter I would redo it, I had been laid off a few months prior and I DID need a job but that was ridiculous even for me. I spoke to some friends as well as my parents and everyone told me it was insane a digital advertiser in this day and age would want you to fill out a paper application and one that wasnt even tailored to their company/business/department. I agreed and called back the external recruiter to say I wouldn’t be resending the application as I did not want to work at a company who was that out of touch and nitpicky. If they were truly a forward thinking digital company they would have never sent me the application they did. She was a bit taken back, but I was firm so she understood.

    In hindsight I’m glad I did it but wondering if I SHOULD have just reprinted if I made a mistake instead of crossing it out??

    1. StudentA*

      I think you did the right thing for you. I’m not sure I would have filled it out either. If they are that anal, there are probably candidates out there who would thrive in such an environment. It just wasn’t a match for you.

  183. Inbox Zero Achieved!*

    I wrestled my email into submission and achieved inbox zero!
    It was a glorious 15 minutes.

    2. CM*

      I got overwhelmed by the amount of requests coming in and did “fake inbox zero” earlier this week by putting all the “action required” emails into one folder and moving everything else into another folder. Since then I’ve been maintaining inbox zero the same way.

    4. Teapot librarian*

      I have 315 including 3 unread. I’ve blocked out 6 hours on Sunday to wrestle my to-do list into submission and I’m worried that won’t be enough time. All of which is to say CONGRATULATIONS!!!

    5. animaniactoo*

      My inbox (which goes back to 2013 even after several weedings) and I stand (well, okay, sit) in awe of you.

  184. OtterB*

    I am amused by Conan the Salaryman @Conansalaryman on Twitter and thought some of you would be too. The idea is that these are the tweets of an old style barbarian thief, pirate, swordsman, etc., now working an office job.

    On people who expect him to stay late at work: “My shift tis done.” growled Conan, rising ominously from his desk. “So lest you come to discuss a raise in my pay, slink back to the sulfurous pit from whence you crawled, hellspawn.” The manager turned on the spot and fled.

    On being the interviewer: “You boast more than an Argosian sailor.” growled the barbarian. “But tell me this, cur. Why are none of these fantastic achievements listed on your blasted resume?” The candidate stuttered to a halt, mouth open.

    On technology: “Gods and Devils, is your skull truly empty?” fumed Conan, froth bubbling from his lips. “If I, an untutored barbarian from the Northern Wastes, can master the online meeting room reservation system, what in Crom’s Mighty Name is your excuse?”

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      That sounds hilarious and someone I am following as soon as I remember my Twitter password.

  185. Becker*

    I’ve been at BEC-level dissatisfaction with my job for about a year. Due to personal circumstances I had been hoping to make it work through 2019, since I will not be in a position to find comparable employment until then. I’ve tried any number of things to make this work and to remain professional.

    But I really don’t think I can do this anymore. I’ve found it increasingly difficult not to let on that I’m disgusted with the changes that have happened over the past year or that I’m really not ok with being supervised by a raging micromanager who isn’t very good at any aspect of their job. This week I was told in no uncertain terms that I am required to participate in a completely pointless work thing that will conflict with an outside obligation that my boss was not only aware of, but had previously said that they would work around.

    I think I’m done, even if it means selling the house. Better that than getting fired, right?

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      start looking for a job, it can’t hurt. And tell your boss that you’re sorry, you have a preexisting personal obligation that you’ve communicated and won’t be able to attend. You will be happy to review materials/whatever at a later date.

  186. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    Our facility is not doing great financially, and every other month our department gets a lecture about how we have to tell our customers that requests outside of our normal SOP will incur additional charges. That’s fine by me, but the frustration is that when we tell our customers this, they complain to management (the same people lecturing us about charging extra!) who cave in and tell us to do the work for no additional charge. It’s happened several times in the last few months and it’s so demoralizing, especially since it makes me and my co-workers (the first point of contact) look like we’re trying to nickle and dime them to death while our management comes off as “understanding the bigger picture”. Just yesterday we got another lecture as the facility had a particularly bad month, and I just wanted claw my eyes out.

    1. Jennifleurs*

      Oh ugh, nothing is worse than when managers undermine you!! :( I had it happen all the time when I worked in a charity shop – people would try to haggle and then demand to see the manager, who would always agree. I’m sorry :(

    2. laylaaaaaah*

      Ugh, yeah, I remember that feeling. It’s such bad business practice, and makes the employees feel (and appear) absolutely awful. I’m sorry. :(

  187. Always the Worker Bee*

    I am preparing to leave for a new job and as I do so I realize that one of my frustrations with my current position is at least partially my fault. Under my last boss and my current I’ve fallen into the same pattern and I want to make sure I don’t do this in my new position.

    My issue is that I end up being the person who takes on all the written (background) work that needs to take place before public presentations and communications with clients. I see what needs to be done and I get it done. In my current position it means I do my job and that of my boss. I work from 7am to 11pm with a couple of evening hours off for family time. I’m salaried if that matters.

    My boss has me preparing his reports and completing his projects (there is a clear definition of what is his and what is mine) and then he goes and presents them. He and past boss are both great at the people skills and connections. I always prioritize the written work. I see this leading to opportunities to them and me continuing in the same role without recognition in my current place of employment with regard to what I’m doing.

    I know much of this will be evident at current place of employment when I leave and boss can’t do 95% of his job. My question is how do I get out of this rut when I go to my next position. I already see that my new boss has great people skills and lacks in organization/follow up.

    1. Granny K*

      You need to ask yourself if you are that much of a perfectionist that you can’t ‘let’ other’s do the writing portion and have it be not as good as you would have done it? Can you let this go?
      Regarding the new boss being disorganized, not your problem–especially if s/he has an admin to organize them. Be clear on the expectations.

    2. Brooklyn99wasCancelled*

      Make sure the additional work you do is on your year end review.
      If your company has you list out your yearly goals, include it.
      If you’ve done it, it should be acknowledged.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Well, commit to working reasonable hours! 16 hour days are unreasonable. This is so unreasonable that I recommend therapy for learning to establish and maintain boundaries.

  188. Jennifleurs*

    Does anyone have any tips for the “tell me about a time when …” questions? I’ve read load of advice, including Alison’s but none of them quite address my awful combination of boring, undemanding job with no responsibility which I hate desperately, and self-esteem through the floor. So not only can I not ever think of anything I have done, I can’t even answer questions like “Tell me about an achievement you’ve had at work”. And it sabotages all my interviews, so I’ll never get out of here anyway.

    This was mainly vent. Maybe at least other people will be in the same boat?

    1. All Anon*

      Can you answer with something from a volunteer opportunity , education, club or even your personal life? You could say that one of the reasons you are looking is that your current job doesn’t lend itself to that kind of opportunity but here’s an example from elsewhere in your experience.

    3. Gatomon*

      I usually come up with a couple of themes (difficult coworker, difficult boss, difficult customer, achievement, etc.) and write out/practice out those scenarios until I have them down. Then I adapt them in the interview.

      For example, you could twist an achievement out of a difficult customer moment. The achievement is the satisfied customer! Or difficult coworker situation into problem-solving. It doesn’t matter so much how big or small the thing is, they just want to know how you dealt with it.

      Worst case scenario, explain what you would do if you were in the situation.

  189. Serious Pillowfight*

    I’m annoyed at myself for the way I handled a situation at work yesterday.

    The person who normally takes calls from the public is on vacation, and her fill-ins never stay as long as she does because we work a late shift. Of course, five minutes after her fill-in went home, the phone rang. Normally we don’t answer it but they kept calling, so finally my boss picked up. It was a flustered client who wanted us to fix an error that one of our salesmen made. Apparently it was too late at night and she couldn’t reach him, so she found the company’s main number and called it.

    I had tangentially worked on this product, so I somehow ended up getting roped into talking with this client. Keep in mind I’m an anxious person and I took this job in part because it doesn’t involve dealing with the public. Like many people who read this blog, I hate talking on the phone, especially when I don’t know what I’m walking into, and would rather email. At my previous job, I actually said in my outgoing voicemail to email me at name@company.com “to reach me quicker.”

    She wasn’t nasty, but she was flustered and freaking out and rattling off all the errors faster than I could write them down and telling me I needed to fix it NOW because she had people flipping out at her on her end. I mostly held my composure, but it was a huge ball of awkward because the other people in the office with me were within a five-foot radius at their desks, so everyone was of course listening in trying to figure out what was going on.

    I finally get her off the phone with the promise that I was going to go fix the error RIGHT NOW, and I slammed down the phone in frustration. I doubt she heard it, and it wasn’t my intention for her to hear it. It was a bad habit left over from my previous job where everyone (mostly women) would slam down the phone at the end of a call that annoyed them. It’s a passive-aggressive way of throwing a mini-tantrum at having to deal with things we don’t want to deal with, I suppose.

    The guys around me knew better than to ask what happened at that point, so I fixed the errors amid awkward silence–and then she called back! Because apparently the front end hadn’t updated fast enough and the errors were “still there.” And she wanted to talk to me. I handled the second go-around better than the first. I smiled and willingly took her call, whereas the first time, I made a grimacing deer-in-headlights face when my coworker said he was going to pass off the call to me. Everything was finally fixed, and the guys said I handled it well. I made a joke about slamming down the phone, which seemed to go over well, but I still feel stupid for the way I handled the situation. I was completely caught off-guard and forced to do something I HATE doing.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      It sounds like you handled it perfectly fine. The client had been getting the run-around from your company and you were able to understand their issues and fix it. You provided excellent service, despite that not being your job.

      Put this one in the “win” column and hopefully you’ll never have to do it again.

      1. Seriously?*

        It sounds more like the client expects 24/7 customer service than that they were getting the run around.

      2. Serious Pillowfight*

        Thank you. I just hate that I may have inadvertently reinforced the concept of the “emotional woman” to all the guys at work. I wish I had just stayed calm, cool, and collected the entire time …Although the night before last, my normally calm and pleasant (male) boss got riled up about something and slammed his fist on his desk, so it’s not just me.

  190. (Different) Rebecca, PhD*

    One of my best friends just got a sterling interview opportunity!

    I just got reprimanded for using the copier/printer for a completely valid reason.

    FML. *puts head down on desk and cries*

      1. (Different) Rebecca, PhD*

        My department is displeased with me. Therefore even normal things that I actually *should* be doing are subject to scolding.

    2. Jennifleurs*

      That’s horrible, I feel bad for you :( Hope the situation improves for you!

      1. (Different) Rebecca, PhD*

        Thank you. It’s my last day, anyhow. Just this, and graduation, where I’ll show up for my students.

    3. laylaaaaaah*

      Ack, that sounds like an awful environment to be in! I hope you can get out of there soon.

  191. Kali*

    I am having a very British problem.

    I’m currently a student, and, every week during term, dogs from the local dog’s home visit the student support office, where we get to play with them and relax, and are encouraged to volunteer. I applied to walk the dogs over the summer and have been accepted, with an induction in July. I noticed that their website also asks for donations of crafted items, and since crafting is how I relax while revising, decided to offer some of those in the meantime. They don’t have any suggested patterns or images of past items, so I found some patterns online and asked “are these sorts of patterns acceptable for donation?”. From the reply, I suspect that my ambiguous wording there has lead the person I’m emailed to believe that I designed the patterns and that I’m offering those rather than just offering to make things from them. But, his email is ambiguous too, so I’m not totally sure there’s been a misunderstanding. I replied, something along the lines off “I’m not good at making things to order [so no point taking my details to advertise – one of the things that lead me to believe they thought I was offering the patterns] – but I’ll make a few over the next month and bring them with me when I volunteer”. No reply, and possibly I won’t get one. That might well have sorted it, but I am concerned that it hasn’t and I should have been more clear and direct.:/

    Actually, now I come to write it out, I’m not sure it is a problem. Either he’s realised/always knew that I’m only offering to make things from the patterns, not that they’re my patterns, or I can make it clearer in my next email, probably like “so sorry for the confusion! I just found those patterns online – I don’t own them! Apologies for the ambiguous wording!”.

    1. TeacherNerd*

      I’m a fan of clear-and-direct, because minds cannot be read, and especially with interactions over email, meaning and tone can be misinterpreted or misunderstood altogether. (This is what I tell my students: “You need to use your words. This is like Dating 101. You need to use your words because no one else but you knows what’s in your head, and no other person on your planet knows what you want except for you.”) If you’re not sure, be direct and be specific in what you want to know.

  192. memyselfandi*

    Practicing appearing “pleasantly detached” as referenced in yesterday’s Update. Anyone know where this was initially referenced on AAM? It is such a useful concept.

  193. blaise zamboni*

    This is such a long day. My company has a dozen offices in the region and each office requires two full-time people in my role. I have my home office, but I also have an established relationship with another office where I have helped cover vacations and emergencies before. So when both full-timers from that office quit, I was a natural choice to help cover as they train new people.

    I’m happy to help out but we are sooo, sooooooo behind, and everything that can go wrong is going wrong. And I am personally close to both people who quit, but I’m having one of those days where I just want to shake them for the mess they left. Why didn’t you document better?! I shouldn’t have to duplicate your work!

    So…People! Please document! PSA for the day.

  194. CG*

    A little late in the day, but… any advice on how to shrug off someone at work who seems to want more of a friendly relationship than you’d like with them? There’s someone that I need to maintain a pleasant relationship with at work (for work reasons) who is just not taking any of my hints that their overtures of friendship aren’t sticking the landing. I have a busy day and don’t really have a time to read all of the emails on topics I’ve never expressed an interest in, have friendly hallway chats when I’m clearly powerwalking between meetings, or have chatty lunches about non-work stuff with someone I don’t share common interests with. Also, to be honest, I just really don’t like them all that much, personally or professionally. I work in very large office, so I’m not being cliquey or excluding them from something, though I do have actual close friends in my office that they’ve seen me have lively interactions with. We’re also not on the same immediate team, but our teams do work together a couple of times a week.

    I tend to mostly ignore the person, but they’re just not getting the hint, and they seem focused on me specifically over coworkers. There’s definitely a gender dynamic too, but they haven’t come close enough to a line that I’d feel comfortable making a comment like “I’m not interested!”, because it’s not crystal clear that that is the problem here.

    1. Thlayli*

      Tell them that you prefer not to get emails on non-work things coz it clutters up you really inbox. Also tell them that you really prefer to just get your work done and go home, and you have friends outside work and you don’t really tend to make lots of friends at work, and you hope they realise it’s nothing personal.

  195. KayEss*

    Just had an interview for a position that I swear I am 99% certain was portrayed as permanent when I applied, but is apparently now for a roughly 6-month term. I’m kind of processing how I feel about that.

    Pros: they want someone who can start immediately, which may give me an advantage; the HR person I interviewed with said that the position still comes with benefits, one of the primary things keeping me from independent contractor work (which is not uncommon in my field); the company overall seems really great and at the moment I’m pretty excited about the prospect of working with them; I’ve been unemployed and looking for six months and am going crazy

    Cons: no guarantee of a permanent position (though of course they say it’s possible); I don’t know if I’d be able to go back on unemployment if I don’t manage to line up another job before the term ends???

    1. Gatomon*

      Take the job if you get it! You shouldn’t have a problem with going back on UI if you needed to. As long as you made enough money during those 6 months to qualify for benefits you should be okay.

  196. Margali*

    Hopefully not coming in too late to get some advice here! My teenage daughter is going to have her first ever job interview, for summer work at Starbucks. What’s the best advice you have for me to pass on to her, ESPECIALLY if you ever worked at Starbucks yourself. Thanks!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’ve never worked at Starbucks, but I interview a lot of college students. My advice would be: She should dress appropriately for the interview. It doesn’t have to be a suit, but nice pants/skirt and blouse or something.

      Have her bring a copy of her resume with her in case she needs to refer to it to jog her memory. It is okay to take notes during the interview. I’d also remind her of the importance of asking questions. She’s interviewing them as much as she’s being interviewed.

      Good luck to her!

      1. Margali*

        She’s 16, first job, so doesn’t really have a resume. She has looked up the Starbucks dress code already so she can fit in during the interview. Good point about not being afraid to ask questions! I’ve volunteered to role play an interview with her, but I’m not sure she’s going to take me up on it.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Be honest about who she is and how she handles stuff. If that means she doesn’t get this job, that’s probably a good thing in the long run even if it sucks right now. But being honest about it rather than trying to paper over it is likely to win her points “I can get stressed out, but my method for dealing with that is…” or “I have a really well developed sense of the absurd. I don’t let it get out of control, but it helps for dealing with situations that seem like they should be in a sitcom script somewhere.” “I’m not sure how I’d handle that because I haven’t been in many situations like that, I think I’d be okay because there’s not much that throws me and I’d do my best to keep being polite and professional. Would that be a situation where I should call a supervisor, or am I expected to try and handle it myself?”

    2. A. Ham*

      Former Starbucks partner here!
      I unfortunately don’t have a lot of advice for the interview- my time at Starbucks started over 10 years ago and I don’t remember the specifics of the interview except that it was pretty casual, in the cafe, and wasn’t terribly long (also, I’m pretty sure I walked out with a job).
      As far as working there- it can be a really great job, with some frustrations- as with any customer facing food/beverage/retail job. My advice is keep breathing throughout training- you will get overwhelmed, and think you will never get it, make a million mistakes your first shift on the floor and you will feel like you’re moving like a sloth during your first rush. Those first few weeks can be overwhelming, but you eventually find the rhythm!
      Also- make friends with your co-workers. They will be your saving grace when dealing with awful customers, or when 20 tweens come in in a row, during a rush, all wanting different kinds of fraps. :-)
      But seriously- overall I really enjoyed my three years there. I had a good store, some awesome regular customers, and some of the best co-workers of my life. (Some of them are still good friends of mine!). I also (as is true for any job like this) gained very valuable customer service and communication skills there that I still use every day.

      And don’t call the cops on people minding their own business in the cafe. :-p

      1. Margali*

        Thanks! And, oof, yeah to that last sentence.
        We’ve got about a 12 day family trip planned, and I’m really hoping that that won’t knock her out of consideration.

    3. Tomato Soup*

      I’ve never done starbucks but I’ve done food service. one thing i learned from food service though is be flexible, and grow a thick skin that you can use later in other jobs and life. And also have a clear head because you’ll be dealing with orders that people want this and dont want that. You’ll also learn to keep your cool in hectic times of the day.

      As for interview, I think one of my friend who got a job at Starbucks said something about being customer friendly, because you could be working in drive through or in house. There’s also cash handling and food safety, but I think food safety they will also teach you because food service workers need the training anyways. Then there’s also punctuality, and if you can’t really come in a certain day, you’ll have to find someone to cover you or let them know X days in advance whatever company policy is.

      I never get the point of mock interview with someone I’m familiar with because I kind of can’t take it seriously and i get too comfortable hahah. If that didn’t help maybe get a friend of friend someone more obscure and she don’t know about.

    4. Heather*

      I have never worked at Starbucks but I interview a lot of college students for part time positions in a customer service role, and the most important thing I look for is personality. Just remind her that she is interviewing for a position where she will be working with the public, and will be expected to display great customer service skills, so she should really show the interviewer how she will be when interacting with the public. When I’m hiring for these kinds of positions, I always think of how the person I’m interviewing is speaking with me will be similar to how they speak with their customers, so I look for people who are friendly, engaging, excited to do the work, resilient when they are thrown off by something, and have a great personality. Anything else relevant to the job, I can teach them. Personality is one thing you can’t teach.

  197. Tough Luck*

    My old supervisor drives me bonkers.

    I’m under a new supervisor since a promotion almost a year ago, however, for some reason, everyone’s time off requests in our office go to my old supervisor.

    So, I’m taking a full week of vacation the last week in May. Old Supervisor approved my request months ago. However, I realized on Monday that I’d classified one of the days as ‘Personal Time’ instead of ‘Vacation Time’ by accident. In our office, personal time carries over from year to year, while vacation doesn’t, so it makes sense to use vacation first. Anyway, I emailed Old Supervisor asking her how I needed to change the time off request from personal to vacation, since I didn’t see any way for me to edit the request on my own (we use an online system). She emails me back and says, “well, I doubt that will be possible…I’ll check with corporate to see if that can be edited and let you know, but it’s already been approved as personal time, not vacation.”

    It makes NO sense to me why that couldn’t be changed still. I have plenty of vacation time available, and I haven’t taken the time off yet, so why could it not be changed from personal to vacation? True to form, she hasn’t gotten back with me, and I’d be surprised if she actually emailed corporate. I know from previous interactions that there’s a zero percent change she’ll email me back until I reach out again asking what corporate said.

    1. Future Analyst*

      She’s being ridiculous. Can you cancel it from your end, and just re-submit?

      1. OtterB*

        No, don’t do that. That opens the possibility for Old Supervisor to say it can’t be approved because it’s being requested too close to the time, or something.

      2. Tough Luck*

        I don’t think so. That’s the only reason I emailed in her in the first place, I couldn’t find a way to cancel it on my end.

    2. zora*

      I would just call HR myself and ask them if it’s possible instead of waiting for her to do it.

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        That, or get the name of another timesheet approver in your company from someone you know who works on a different team, and when you call that person, let him/her know you got a referral from [name here] as someone who could possibly answer this question. You can explain that you’re caught in the Paperwork Bermuda Triangle between supervisors at the moment, which is why you’re just not sure, and wanted an outside authority. I have no idea if that will work, but it’s what I’d try. Good luck.

  198. Jay Bee*

    One of my direct reports has a learning disability. I’m not certain exactly what it is, all she’s told me is that it relates to reading comprehension, and affects her writing abilities. Her writing is fine (ish)- it’s just curt, no typos or grammar issues. It doesn’t have any “style” but that’s not the issue really. Her personality is warm, friendly, bubbly and extroverted.

    She writes down absolutely EVERYTHING anyone says to her. It’s clearly a technique to help her remember what it is she needs to do. But if I’m asking her to do something, or check on something, (really anything that is not a question she needs to immediately answer) she writes down the information as I’m saying it, and if she misses something, I need to go back and repeat myself again. She cannot retain the information in her head, and then write it down after.

    I do not want this to come across offensively- she needs to do what she needs to do in order to manage her learning disability, and I support that in absolutely every way I can, or with anything she would ask for. I am 100% behind her personal and professional growth and want to do anything I can do be a manager that helps her grow and succeed.

    We work in Events, and that’s an environment where you need to be able to be quick on your feet, make snap decisions, and problem solve. This isn’t her strength, and I know she doesn’t want to do events long term.

    But really the above is just an example in order to pick everyone here’s brain- is there anything you can recommend about managing, supporting and accommodating someone with a learning disability?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Yes, you can suggest a different accommodation. Are you comfortable letting her record your conversations with a mini recorder and follow up with you on any questions later? If so, I would ask her if she can do that so as not to interrupt the flow when you’re giving her instructions.

      Also, can you e-mail her anything or jot to yourself in the moment notes things to e-mail her about, and ask her what the best way would be to format that for her? Under the theory that you know what you’re thinking and would need to write less in the moment to keep the flow going?

      The goal is, you’re trying to work with her, but if possible you need it to be something that is less disruptive to you than what’s currently going on. Ask her if she has any other ideas or suggestions.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      As someone with a learning disability, please just treat her like anyone else unless she asks for something to be done differently. She might fail. She might succeed, but really she needs to learn how to do that on her own. I don’t know the ADA requirements of this.

      My learning disability is my thing to deal with and I would be super uncomfortable with my employer trying to help. Your mileage may vary, of course.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        I’m sorry I wasn’t sure if she’d already asked for accommodation. If she has, than yeah, I think you need to talk with her about how this accommodation might not working and try to up with something else. If she hasn’t asked for accommodation than I’d leave it be, but manage her work like any other employee, so if she has problems you need to address them as you would with anyone else.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Even if she hasn’t asked for accommodation, I think the message can be “I recognize that you’re using this as a support, but it’s pretty disruptive and doesn’t work well in this environment. Is there something else that can be done? I’m willing to work with you on it, here are a couple of things I would be willing to do if it will be helpful if it will work for you.” It’s not so much just generic trying to help, as trying to work together to smooth out something that is a problem for Jay Bee, the same as you might do with any other employee who was having an issue that was disruptive to work flow process.

      2. Bobstinacy*

        Exactly the point I was going to make.

        As soon as people find out about my learning disabilities it’s common that I’m infantalized.

        I think a lot of people tend to assume that ‘intelligence’ is a scale from smart to dumb so if you struggle in some facet of comprehension it moves you to the dumb end of the scale. Suddenly you’ll have people questioning your choices, asserting their narrative over yours, and dismissing your opinions.

        I’d trust that she knows how her disability effects her and that she’s constantly seeking new ways to streamline her cognition/retention. If it’s frustrating for you to watch her, imagine what it’s like to have to physically write down every single thing you hear! She’s probably spent years coming up with her system, and it might be the best option she has right now.

        If her work performance suffers I would approach it like you’d approach any of your employees that might need support from management.

  199. Jan Levinson*

    I applied for a job Monday that I’m super interested in. After I applied, I got an email from a no-reply email address, that said, “Thank you for applying. Please click the link below and answer a few follow-up questions.” However, when I click the link, it redirects me to a page with nothing but a ‘submit’ button. No questions, no nothing. Just the one button. I found a general email on their website (info@companyname.com). It’s a small dental office, so I figured the email would reach someone who could help. I chose to email instead of call to avoid catching them off guard since I’d literally applied for the position 5 minutes prior. I politely explained in my email that I’d applied for job X, gotten the automated email with the link that sent me to a (nearly) blank page, and asked if they needed any additional information from me. It’s now Friday, and I have not heard a response from them. Should I let it go, or should I call the office?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I’d call the office. It’s been a few days, and I don’t think it’d be pushy to call and say what you said in the email. Chances are the email just got buried with new patient emails and whatnot.

    2. beanie beans*

      Another option might be to try the link again with a different browser?

      If that doesn’t work, definitely call! Good luck!

  200. Addison*

    I’m super late today but hey y’all, it’s the Crappy Clerk Saga gal. I actually have a question tangentially related to said clerk(s)!

    So I’ve “unofficially” now managed 3 of them. I’m not counting the first Original Crap Clerk because he was, you know, him, but we had 2 temps for a few months each and now an internal hire that I trained and basically supervise entirely. I don’t approve their timesheets, but I do basically everything else — teaching them how to do everything they do, assisting them with their work, delegating their tasks and making sure they get done, introducing them to who they need to know, giving them advice on who to talk to about x problem or how to solve y issue, explaining office policies and procedures, occasionally giving feedback… yeah. This isn’t in my job description and I don’t get paid extra for it, they won’t offer me a raise or a promotion despite that I am literally managing employees, like a manager does, because their/our boss is either not ever here or does not do these tasks so would not know how to help with most of it, and I also have my own extremely demanding job unrelated to Clerk Stuff to focus on. I don’t mind it — I want to move up in the world and become an Actual supervisor someday. And since it’s apparently not going to happen here, and I’m just getting taken advantage of forever apparently…
    How would you list this on a resume? Like, supervising employees while not actually being their supervisor? I’m kind of afraid that outright saying “supervised” would be denied if they called and checked my references since it’s so official, but… it’s what I’m doing, no two ways about it. My resume is already pretty long and probably needs an overhaul anyway, but I kind of want to give special attention to spotlighting this since it’s what I want to move forward with doing in the future.

    Thanks!

    1. Seriously?*

      Resume wise, I would probably just say trained since the rest in unofficial. But you can address the fact that you have been unofficially supervising them in your cover letter, using it as a reason that you want to move more into a supervisor/manager role.

  201. Puzzled physician*

    How do you encourage someone to take initiative?
    After a long and unsuccessful search for an LPN for the clinic in which I work, we moved a current employee who happened to be an MA into the open position and redesignated it as an MA position. We knew her work and she is enthusiastic and helpful. She’s been in the position at least a couple months now (I forget exactly, could be longer), trained by the 10+ year clinic RN. She is good about doing everything asked, but does not seem to take initiative. For example, yesterday she forwarded on to me a question about whether I’d called a patient’s schoolteacher (ROI is on file), rather than just checking the chart to see if I documented the call. I’m trying to coach her on what is within her scope to do independently or to prep for me so I can just sign (or refuse to sign). I’m not sure it’s a scope of practice issue, though, as much as just not thinking about the next step. Sometimes she does take initiative, so I can’t say that she does not know how to do it at all. I know part of the answer is to sit down and talk, but I’m having trouble framing the conversation.

  202. FaintlyMacabre*

    Had an interview on Monday. It went… not well? They remembered me from my interview a few years ago, which might be good. Unfortunately, it’s one of those positions where they want you to have experience but the way to get experience in the job is to have someone hire you, sooooo….. Basically, I’m trying not to think about it too much and hope that everyone else they interviewed sucked. (I used the question of what differentiates a good employee from a great employee and two of the interviewers said, at the same time, “Experience.” Sigh.)

  203. FaintlyMacabre*

    After my somewhat rough interview earlier this week, I was trying to cheer myself up with happy thoughts and remembered this fun tale of workplace karma.

    Several years ago, I had a temp job in a ridiculously dysfunctional workplace. It was a large factory and I along with two other coworkers did office work there. In my head, I dubbed them Micromanager Mindy and Do-nothing Delores. (For this story, know that while she drove me insane as a coworker, as a human being I actually liked Micromanager Mindy.)

    Do-nothing Delores did not like me or Mindy, largely because we actually knew how to do our jobs, did our jobs, and didn’t cover for her when she frequently slacked off of her job. She was a giant suck up, and would bring in treats for everyone in the factory, but always mysteriously ran out before she got to me and Mindy. I could go on, but you get the idea.

    One day, Jim, the grand boss comes in. He’s holding three strips of ten raffle tickets in his hand. The office was having a raffle for charity and there were some really nice prizes- electronics and cash and gas station gift cards. Jim addresses the three of us, saying that while he wanted to support the raffle, as the grand boss it would be inappropriate for him to win anything and therefore had bought the tickets for us.

    Even as Mindy and I are getting out our thanks, Delores has already snatched a strip of tickets from Jim’s hand and walked away without saying anything. (In my memory, she goes off into a corner and hunches over them, crooning, “Preciousss, my preciousss,” but that is probably not what happened?) Jim, Mindy and I exchange a three way eye roll and then Mindy and I make an elaborate dance out of choosing the two strips of raffle tickets left. “Please, Mindy, choose which tickets you’d like.” “No, no, I insist you choose.” “I couldn’t possibly take away your choice. You simply must have your pick.” This continued until Jim more or less threw the tickets at us and walked away, no doubt regretting all the life choices he had made that had led him to that point.

    All week, Delores natters on about the prizes she wants and complains that Jim *only* bought her ten tickets. Mindy and I get in some high intensity eye rolling excercises. Finally, the raffle occurs and the prizes are distributed. Mindy and I both win gas certificates. Mindy also wins one of the higher end electronics. Delores gets diddly-squat. And every time she complained, we reminded her that she had the first pick of tickets. It was beautiful! Never have I enjoyed putting gas in my car so much as when I was using that certificate…

    Other stories of workplace karma?

  204. Mimmy*

    TL;DR – Sudden passing of co-worker, compelling people to attend religious service

    It has been a tough week at work. An instructor passed away very suddenly Monday night; I think he was only in his late 40s. I don’t work on Tuesdays, so I was really bummed that I wasn’t there Tuesday to be with everyone as they were processing everything. Yesterday was the funeral, so I was at least able to participate in that. I can tell even today that some people were still reeling.

    I do have one question: Our director said that going to the funeral was optional for both staff and students. A few students had planned to stay behind, but one staff member apparently nudged them into going. I did not see this, but at least two other staff did, both of whom felt it was very inappropriate for this staff person to essentially force the students to attend a religious service. Are they right?

    1. CatCat*

      It is inappropriate to pressure people into attending a funeral they do not wish to attend regardless of whether it is religious or not. I don’t understand how they were “essentially forced” though.

    2. beanie beans*

      I see a big difference between nudged and forced, so it’s really dependent on whether it was closer to one than the other.

      But like CatCat said, it’s inappropriate to force anyone to attend the funeral, regardless of whether it was religious or not.

      1. Mimmy*

        Thanks to you both.

        To preserve my anonymity, I was trying to keep details vague, but the funeral was definitely religious – it was actually an interesting experience because we got to see the customs of a religion that most of us were not familiar with.

        I didn’t realize that my description is contradictory–my apologies. Again, I didn’t see the interaction between the staff person and these students – Arya and Cersei did, and Cersei told me what she saw. I think Arya wanted to report it though, so while it probably wasn’t a case of outright forcing the students to go, it probably wasn’t exactly a nudge either. Since I didn’t see it, though, I will stay out of it and let Arya and anyone else do whatever they think is best. I can’t help but be just a little bit curious as to how it’ll play out.

        1. Thlayli*

          Definitely stay out of it since you don’t even know if it was a nudge (arguably appropriate) or forcing (inappropriate).

        2. Observer*

          Staying out of it is your best bet here.

          I will agree though, that although I totally believe you that it was a religious service, I think it doesn’t really matter. You don’t force people to attend a funeral.

  205. Jules the First*

    So I’ve poached a member of staff (Kate) from my old team to my new company – not deliberately, she applied! – and while I’m thrilled Kate’s coming to join my new team, it’s going to land her boss Susan in a bit of a pinch…Susan’s team is understaffed already and I’m poaching her most productive team member.

    It feels like I owe Susan a courtesy call (once Kate resigns) to apologise for leaving her in the lurch and maybe pointing her in the direction of some possible candidates for Kate’s role, but I’m at a loss what to say. It’s complicated by the fact that Susan used to report to me, and we’ve become casual friends since I left the company 18 months ago. Any suggestions?

    1. Granny K*

      If Kate applied, that means you didn’t poach her, you hired her. Perhaps you could drop an email but don’t take responsibility for things you didn’t do.

    2. CatCat*

      I wouldn’t apologize. This is just life and a normal part of working.

      “Hey Susan, I know losing Kate on your team will probably mean you need to go into hiring mode soon. I can point you in the direction of some possible candidates for the role if you’re interested. Just let me know!”

    3. CatCat*

      I’d also reframe your thinking with respect to what happened here. “Poaching” implies something illicit and also that Kate belongs to an employer. That’s not at all the case. You didn’t “poach” anyone, you hired a highly qualified candidate for an open position.

    4. Observer*

      As others noted, if Kate applied, you didn’t do anything. In any case, the whole “poaching” terminology gets under my skin. Kate doesn’t belong to your old company, or to her boss.

      Please do yourself a favor, and do NOT apologize for allowing Kate to choose to move to a different company. You have nothing to apologize for and you shouldn’t act as though there is something wrong with what Kate did or with you “allowing” it. Also, you really don’t want to set unreasonable and unrealistic expectations.

      If Susan is a reasonable person, she doesn’t expect an apology. If she DOES expect an apology, she’s probably not the easiest person to work for – It’s hard to work for people who expect you to apologize for things that you have not done wrong.

  206. PookieLou*

    A while back, y’all gave me some great advice on how to leave my full-time job gracefully, so I can pursue a freelance career in a different field. I feel so good to be out of that space, and optimistic about my future as a translator, so thank you!

    I have experience in other areas of this industry, but this is my first foray into professional translation. And I realize that I don’t know as much about how to create a good resume as I thought. I can do a kick-butt chronological resume for a 9-5 desk job, but this seems different.

    I’m thinking of doing a hybrid functional/chronological resume, because I have a lot of volunteer experience/transferable skills, and this is a new career for me. In addition to all the other important stuff, I need to provide a specialty (or at least, areas of interest). Nobody will take me seriously if I just say I’m good at everything. Not only is it impossible to be knowledgeable about everything, but it comes across as desperate and naive.

    ***My question is how can I inspire trust in potential clients that I am knowledgeable in the field of X, without professional experience translating texts about X?***

    Example: Let’s say I love kites. Years of flying kites has made me quite knowledgeable in this area. I want to translate kite brochures, but I have no formal kite education, or paid kite work experience. Do I include a kite-specific section to highlight my kite expertise that I gained outside of education/employment? It’s not like it relates directly with my proven language skills or industry experience. But I also want to show potential clients evidence that I know kites, until I build up enough experience as a kite brochure translator to put that on my resume instead.

    Bonus questions:

    Let’s say I also love puppetry. But unlike kites, I formally studied puppetry and even performed in university puppet shows. Do I list that under education, or would my puppetry experience belong with my other subject matter-specific qualifications?

    I have been religious my entire life. I know a lot about religious texts, traditions, culture, etc by participating in church functions and organizations, some formal education, and extensive volunteer experience. Religion and work are a weird mix. But religious texts need translation, too. So would it be weird to list my 18-month experience as a full-time missionary on my resume as proof of subject matter experience? Or for the relevant skills I gained during that time?

    I hope that all made sense. I am having a horrible time trying to find translation industry-specific resume guidance, so I hope somebody out in AAM Land can shed some light for me.

    1. Traveling Teacher*

      Have you looked up Translator’s Cafe? There’s tons of great advice there.

      And, you’re right that you have to pick a specialization or a small handful to be credible. I’d say gear your CV to the job or type of translation you’re applying for specifically. So, if you’re applying for a job translating religious texts/seeking religious texts to translate, by all means put your relevant experience either in the CV or cover letter. If you’re applying for puppet play translation, though, then I’d list “X religious texts” as a side/other specialization without the details, similar to how you list languages and corresponding written/spoken fluency on your CV.

      If this is to post online on your own website, though, or as an application to work for an agency, I would look up specific advice on TranslatorsCafe.

      Also, are you a qualified translator, certified by a specific exam or program? If you are, make that clear, as you will be able to command/justify higher rates.

      Good luck!

      1. Traveling Teacher*

        Though, with that said about rates: please don’t take below-market rates! It’s a big debate in the field, but even “junior” translators are still doing the same work as “senior” translators, as are formally vs informally trained translators, and should be compensated with fair wages. (taking .04 cents/word is ludicrous in any language, for example, no matter the competition…).

        And, think through your minimum rates before you’re contacted for a job. Even if you’re translating “just” 100 words, you’ll have to send emails to the client, create an estimate, do an invoice, etc. Most full-time translators have a minimum fee to ensure they’re paid for their time, but of course YMMV. A friend of mine does email translation packages (10 emails/month, max X words, at X rate; 20 emails at X rate; and so on. Makes her invoices much simpler!)

        Final piece of advice: never, ever accept a job before seeing the material, and never do a spec sample that’s longer than around 200-400 words max, depending on the final size of the job. Unscrupulous clients will sometimes do this to translate whole documents for free, collecting samples from dozens of unsuspecting translators! And, for a large job or unknown client, get payment upfront, either part or whole.

        1. PookieLou*

          I love your advice! I am very prone to impostor syndrome, so when I came up with my rates I had to convince myself that it was okay to charge average rates for my language pair. But if I can produce good work from the get-go, then why not charge a competent translator’s rates for my language pair?

          I did project management for translation projects for a couple years, and I have some stories about translators not looking over the source text first…ugh. Or translators who aren’t as good at certain subject matters as their resumes suggest. It’s a great way to lose business fast!

          It’s so good to get some advice from someone who knows the industry! Translation is one of those things that seems incredibly straightforward, until you learn just how much goes into it.

      2. PookieLou*

        TranslatorsCafe, yes! I’m familiar with the site, but I haven’t been there in a long while. I’ve been reading blogs by reputable translators and I even got a wonderful book about translation that’s helped a lot, but specific resume advice for my situation is surprisingly hard to find. I bet there’s somebody on the message boards there who has had the same questions as myself.

        I’m not certified yet, but I joined my state’s translators and interpreters association, and I’m getting to know more professionals in my area. My husband and I are on one income until I can start getting work, so when we have a comfortable amount saved up, I plan to join ATA and look into professional trainings until I feel ready to try for certification.

  207. beanie beans*

    I may not have accomplished much actual work today, but I did replace the super funky smelling sponges in the office kitchen. Small victories!

    1. Drivesmenuts*

      Yay! I tried to replace the nasty sponge at my work today but the company only buys one at a time so I have to wait for my purchase request to go through. Sheesh!

  208. HRH The Duke of Coriander and Gomasio*

    I have an interview next week with a very famous tech company (think Google or Apple) and I am so nervous!

    1. AJ*

      LOL I posted at almost the same time about this right below. My interview was with a similar company.

  209. AJ*

    I just finished onsite interviews this week for an internal position within my company (I am a temp trying to find something full time). Like most big tech companies, this place schedules an entire day of onsite interviews, speaking with 4-6 different people in a one on one setting. Except for some reason my interviews were scheduled all over the place. Over a span of 3 days, I had to go to 5 different buildings across 3 different campuses around the city. They rescheduled me 4 times with no notice after I already was there waiting. Most candidates would not be put through something like this. They go in for 1 day and get it over with, possibly coming back in for a second round later, and they find replacement interviewers if one has to cancel. I’m so annoyed because I feel like they put me through a much more stressful process than most external candidates face– I don’t know anyone at this company whose interviews were scheduled like this.

    Its finally over and I’m so exhausted from the stress. I have pretty bad anxiety, and nothing triggers it more than interviewing. I have trouble getting any sleep or eating which is bad enough for a normal 1 day interview. But this entire week I haven’t eaten much and barely slept for 4 days. I really need to figure out a way to deal with this. I’d love to hear if anyone has advice on managing interview anxiety or any other anxiety issues.

    1. Sue Donym*

      I just did an onsite interview as an external candidate and yeah, it was 6 hours continuous where I stayed in the same room all day and interviewers came to me (I know some worked at other buildings) or were on the phone. The coordinator even commented that I was lucky that my original schedule from earlier in the week was still accurate as last minute swaps are common. That’s really unfortunate that your company doesn’t put that same effort in for internal transfers.

      I hear you on the anxiety though. I’ve started taking OTC sleeping aids, which normally work pretty well for me, and even that hasn’t helped the middle of the night insomnia before job related events. The one thing that made me feel a bit more relaxed was following the AAM interview guide advice (for the first time) – writing down two examples for every single behavioral question given, plus others I thought might be possible. It helped me remember stuff about work I’d done that I hadn’t thought about in a long time. Once I did that, I felt better that I was able to think of appropriate examples, had them in recent memory, and thought of different aspects to bring up for this or that type of question. I have no idea yet if I did well enough to get the offer but I did feel pretty confident walking in.

  210. Even Steven*

    I need the help of the wise group here. Just how risky is it to quit without another job lined up?

    I have been in my current job for 4 ½ years, but the extreme toxicity, drama, lack of process, lack of accountability & maturity, etc. has completely worn me out. I haven’t slept through the night in at least 18 months, am groggy & shaky every day, have developed a heart problem that medication isn’t helping, and I have stopped doing everything I love. I get overwhelmed & bombarded at work, sleep badly, dream about work when I do sleep, and repeat the whole thing next day. I am literally dying to leave there. I have saved 7-months’ emergency money, but would hope to spend only a third during unemployment.

    I live in an area with several new possible job listings each day, for which I would be a 50-80% fit of the job description. I have gone on a couple of interviews, but blew both because I was burnt out and stressed and didn’t present my best me.

    So I am here to ask – what are the risks I would take by quitting and taking a couple of weeks to rest & recharge before resuming the search? I know the obvious (tax penalty for having no health insurance), but what else should I consider? And how would spin this departure to a company you applied at? I am confident that with a little rest and distance from ToxicJob I wouldn’t come across as damaged goods, but am uneasy about how to characterize the departure. Is it true that I could be passed over because employers distrust the unemployed? Any advice, suggestions or reminders you might have would really help.

    The Friday Open Thread posting wasn’t up when I left for work this morning, so I am posting it late in the day. I hope not too late! I need all the help I can get. Thank you all for being here!

    1. De Minimis*

      Allegedly employers are having a hard time filling jobs, so it may not be as risky as in years past.

      I see the temptation to do this. It’s honestly hard to job hunt and work in time for interviews when you’re working full-time, and that’s even with a regular, non-toxic job. But I’m not sure though on how to portray it to interviewers or how negatively it might be viewed. A small gap might not matter to people, but job searches often take longer than first expected.

      No job is worth sacrificing your health….I think with money saved up I would probably make the decision to quit, especially since there seem to be job prospects out there.

      1. Even Steven*

        Thanks, De Minimis. The hard part is the gamble on how long it will take to find something else, and still look fresh & employable. No easy answers. I’m not a gambler by nature, so it’s tougher to be brave here.

    2. beanie beans*

      I am really sorry it’s starting to affect your health. That’s the point where I’d be seriously considering quitting. But here are the biggest risks (and why I’m still in a job that I hate instead of quitting)

      1 – It’s much harder to get a job without already being in one.
      2 – It can take a lot longer than you might expect to get a new job (although this really varies depending on what kind of job you’re looking for, so grain of salt here)
      3 – Opportunities for networking, training, professional development sort of stop or get expensive when you quit. Not always, but can be depending on your industry.

      Some other thoughts:
      1 – Do you have some vacation time or sick time you can use for a week or two to take some time off, recover a little, think things through? Or can you request some time off without pay?
      2 – One thing I’ve been trying to do is get as much training as I can while I look. So at least I’m getting my employer to pay for me to get some new skills.

      Good luck with whatever you decide! I hope you get out of there quick!

      2. Even Steven*

        Thanks, beanie beans, and thanks for the link. Yeah, I read that too. I’m still no closer to a decision. And yes, I have tons of PTO accrued, but it’s a small company with no slack and no skilled people to do my thing if I am out. I use maybe 4 days a year, and then the rest get wasted here and there on one-off sick days.

        And yes to training, but I have no energy to add that to my work week. I am hoping the warmer weather will perk me up a little to take some courses.

    3. CAA*

      Well, first of all, the health insurance tax penalty is really a minor issue. It’s still in force for 2018 (goes away in 2019), but it’s waived if you have less than 3 months with no insurance and it’s prorated for longer periods. Also, you are entitled to COBRA, and you have 60 days after you leave your job to sign up for that, so if there’s no work on the horizon, or you need to see a doctor, you can retroactively get coverage.

      For explaining why you left your employer, you needed to take some time off to deal with a family issue that is now resolved (remember, you are a member of your own family) and you decided to look for something with better work-life balance/more stability/a shorter commute/etc when you were ready to go back to work. Being unemployed for a few weeks is very unlikely to make employers wary of you, especially in a hot job market. And if you just put the month/year on your resume, you get a month’s worth of leeway and nobody knows if you worked the entire month or only the first day.

      Can you give notice next week and make Friday, June 1 be your last day? That has a couple of advantages since you can put 6/18 as the last month of employment on your resume, and you may get an extra month of health insurance if your company pays the premiums for everyone who is employed on the 1st. You will have to work the rest of this month, but Memorial Day is coming, and I promise a horrible job is much easier to do when the end is in sight.

      1. Even Steven*

        WOW!!! CAA, I think you nailed it! I am going to copy and paste your comments into a Word doc and start working on this. And I didn’t know about the 3-month waiver for health insurance. That would be great. I am over 50 and health insurance is $$$$$$$.

        I think June 1 is too soon, but I like the insurance strategy and the resume strategy to ensure coverage for a couple of weeks after leaving. I suppose it also translates for LinkedIn, which lists employment duration by weeks and months. Way to stretch it! Thank you!!!

        You have really cheered me up – thank you so much. I have some solid ideas now to work with.

  211. RoaringMice*

    My workplace is a highly specialized field that requires a lot of on the job training. This is done through a “buddy” system where a new employee is placed with one more senior one who does a lot of the training and checks all work before it is sent out. The checking system continues, the work is under 100% QA for all levels of employees so it doesn’t get approved without the buddy’s agreement.

    But one team has problem as the most senior member “Joffery” is completely incapable of teaching or mentoring constructively. Joffery provides no constructive feedback, refuses to talk over problems in person or explain what is wrong with the work, instead leaving comments like “unclear, redo” in the QA sheet. Over the past few years several people have quit, often without any new job or plan in place, because the end result of feedback like that is that they feel bullied, stressed, and loose their confidence while at the same time management points to the lack of output (its hard to get reports out when the feedback is constantly “redo” with no idea what’s wrong!) and ignores the problem as being individuals leaving because they’re just “not suited to the job”.

    In the past when people have tried to suggest that joffery shouldn’t be responsible for checking junior employees work or being their buddy, management have instead used the low output to tell the junior that it is their problem for not communicating effectively with joffery, and have refused to allow the junior to work with anyone else, often going as far as talking to other employees and telling them that they are not allowed to help the junior with their work either. Its always been one junior at a time, so it is hard to show statistically significant data on the output of current employees to prove that the problem is joffery not the juniors, but this keeps happening. The situation has gotten so bad partially because there is a lack of senior staff on that team (they all keep leaving after working with Joffery!)

    Another junior is on the verge of resigning, he has done everything he should, talked to the union, EAP, brought it up in performance reviews, talked to the team leader and overall manager repeatedly, demonstrated that he has tried all the advice he has been given about working effectively with people. Our overall manager has now retired and was one of the most obstructive to change regarding this, so junior sent a letter to team leader last week asking again to be given the change to work with someone other than joffery. The answer was no.

    There are other people on the team (tyrion and jamie) that ought to be promoted to more senior roles where they can do the checking (team leader has been commenting that she expects them to be for months, but its not happening). So it has got to the point that next week the team will approach team leader with a plan to allow tyrion and jamie to begin checking work, easing some of the pressure on the other seniors and allow junior to work with someone other than joffery.

    We’re hoping that by presenting a possible solution team leader will be more receptive to change than simply raising the problem again and being dismissed as whining millennials. I’m also hoping that by approaching as a group with most of the members of that team will show some solidarity and help present the problem as a training methods one rather than a personal attack or isolated interpersonal issues. Is this a good plan? or would tyrion and jamie alone be a better approach?

    1. Observer*

      It’s a good plan.

      I doubt it will work though. When ONE person keeps on having the same problem over and over, and people in other teams are not, that’s should be enough evidence that this person is probably the problem. Yet for some reason someone refuses to do anything about it – not just not doing anything to Joffrey, but not even allowing anyone to take on that part of the work. Until you find out why Joffrey is being protected this way, you are going to have a hard time finding the right lever to push. Because the problem is not that you have not provided reasonable evidence of the problem, but that someone has an unknown reason for refusing to take action.

      Let us know what happens.

  212. Detached Elemental*

    This time last week I was prepping for a job interview and battling a bad, bad case of imposter syndrome.

    After a great pep talk from one of my senior colleagues, I was really confident heading into the interview. It went really well, and I found the questions really easy.

    I’ll find out in a few weeks if I got it. Even if I didn’t get it, I’m very happy I had the opportunity to talk to some of our senior management about my skills and ideas.

    1. HRH The Duke of Coriander and Gomasio*

      I’m going through a similar feeling, I have an interview with a position next week and I know I can do the job but I’ve felt really nervous as it is with a high profile company and I feel I’m lacking in a few of the ‘preferred qualifications.’ I know it is going to be at minimum 4 interviews to get to the end. I have spent hours preparing for it, so we’ll see.

  213. Lauren R*

    Any advice for using a second computer monitor at work? I’m starting a new job soon and I get stressed just watching someone use two screens. Is it something you pick up quickly or does it tend to take some time to adjust and get the hang of it? I’m excited for the job but that part is intimidating.

    1. Gatomon*

      I would struggle to function at work without it! I do think there is a bit of a learning curve at first, but most people pick it up very quickly. Some folks do prefer the single monitor, and if that’s you, it shouldn’t be a big deal to just unhook the extra one and give it back to facilities.

    2. Hannah*

      I felt the same way when we were suddenly given a second monitor. I got used to it really fast. It was no big deal.

    3. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      It depends on how you work! I’m a compulsive multitasker, so I need two monitors or else I end up with 15 windows open on one screen and I lose track of things.

      Other people in similar positions to me manage fine with one at my job. I don’t pretend to understand them, but they’re effective.

      All this is to say – if you really don’t think it’ll work out, don’t feel forced into it! It’s most likely a tool they’re offering, not a job requirement.

      That said – my “organization” (I can describe my system best as barely controlled chaos) is to have production stuff and Outlook in the background on one monitor, and project management tools (including reports) on the second screen. So I silo off different parts of my job to different screens. It’s especially helpful when I’m entering invoices – I’ll have Quickbooks open on the main screen, and I’ll just copy-paste the numbers. And I can proof to make sure that I entered in everything properly.

      For what it’s worth, I love having two monitors and I immediately adapted to it. But I’m also the office tech guy (like, I get called to fix stuff as often as our actual IT). So take my personal experience with a grain of salt, but definitely consider an organizational system for your windows!

      1. Observer*

        In my experience, no one who was “forced” into a second monitor has ever had a problem with it. And a few have told me that they shudder to even think of going back to one.

    4. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      The site ate my previous comment, but here goes:

      1) I picked up using two screens in 5 minutes. But I’m pretty good at figuring out technology, so YMMV.

      2) My system, if you can call it that, is to put different parts of my job on each screen. Essentially, my main left screen is mostly stuff I should be sending out – I’m a project manager, but I also do the invoices for my division and do some production work as well when we’re a little short staffed. So, outward facing reports (either Word documents or PDFs), Outlook, Quickbooks, and my production client go on that screen. My right screen is mostly project management – so it’s a stack of Excel workbooks with raw data and my administration client. (Skype also makes an appearance there since that screen is slightly less hectic.)

      3) Don’t feel like you have to use two screens if you don’t want to! Yes, people who use two screens are seen as Busy People Who Get Stuff Done. But at the end of the day, it’s an efficiency tool. If it doesn’t work for you, then you don’t need to use multiple screens. I know people at my job (in similar positions to me) who use one screen. They do their jobs fine.

    5. Alianora*

      It’s awesome! I usually have Outlook up on one screen and whatever I’m working on on the other, but I also use both monitors for more involved projects. I think it’s pretty quick to pick up, but if you’re overwhelmed, you can always not use one of the monitors.

    6. Traveling Teacher*

      It’s so amazing. I was intimidated too, but quickly saw the benefits once I started using two! I can have two huge Excel spreadsheets open at the same time! Hooray! Usually, I have communication (Skype, Email, and Slack) open on one screen, divided into three parts. Then, my main work on the other screen. Makes it really easy to keep working while keeping an eye on an ongoing chat conversation.

      Main thing for me was getting the orientation right so that it doesn’t take a toll on my neck.

    7. AeroEngineer*

      I use one just for email/calendar or an excel sheet or something which I am not actively working in (but might be referencing for data), and only actively work in the other monitor. I like it as I don’t have to switch back and forth and back and forth between my email/calendar etc on one monitor.

      Definitely not something to be intimidated about! You can use it as you like. Other people in my team use both interchangeably for active work, and we both get the same amount of work done.

      Just think of it as more desk space ;)

    8. Sarah G*

      I have two monitors at work and would have trouble adjusting back to using one! But a lot of my work tasks require 2 or more documents or databases or spreadsheets being viewed at once, either to compare to each other or to pull information from one to the other. I love having 2 monitors!

    9. Government Mule*

      I have 3! Actually 2 and my laptop. Outlook lives on my laptop, and Excel, Word, pdfs, etc. on the 2 big monitors.

    10. Serious Sam*

      One tip, assuming a Windows PC:
      [Windows Key] + [Left Arrow] fits the current window to the left hand half of the screen, or moves to the left hand screen.
      [Windows Key] + [Right Arrow] fits the current window to the right hand half of the screen, or to the right hand screen.
      With two monitors this effectively allow you to have 4 windows open, allowing you to move documents and/or cut & paste around really easily.

    11. Observer*

      It looks a lot more stressful than it is. When you are just looking at another person and their two monitors, you’re seeing all of the stuff they have. But that’s not there because of the two monitors – it’s just more visible to you because of the two monitors. For the person who is using it, though, that visibility makes life much easier because they don’t have to cycle through so much stuff.

      The nice thing is that when you don’t have a ton of stuff and you don’t have things that you really want to have side by side, more or less, you can just ignore the second monitor.

  214. L. Iguana*

    Does anyone have any useful tips to share on how to promote things on social media? I am not the sort of person who naturally uses social media and generally I’m fine with that. However, I’m involved in some organizations which could really benefit from a bigger, more visible social media presence and none of us seem to have the first clue on how to go about getting to that place. I feel like I need a version of “How to win friends and influence people” but updated for social media with suggestions like “remember to take photos of your events so you can post them”. I’ve seen a lot of letters and comments from people here who work in new media, what steps do you take to say, keep a Facebook group from being empty and boring?

  215. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

    I know I’m late to the party, but I have a link in my post so I hope it at least captures Allison’s attention. :)

    Has anyone else read The NY Times piece on Nike? A group of female employees were fed up with the inappropriate behavior of executives and the type of culture taking over. After HR ignored their complaints, one group quietly surveyed the females in the company then deposited the stack on the CEO’s desk. Within weeks, 6 top level executives left Nike.

    Link to story: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/28/business/nike-women.html?mc=aud_dev&mcid=fb-nytimes&mccr=LLFEM&mcdt=&subid=LLFEM&ad-keywords=AudDevGate&dclid=CLrRx6SC_9oCFYKTZAodxpEPiA

    I would LOVE to hear discussion on this situation. I know Allison frequently gives advice that it is better to approach management as a group to make a necessary change in policy or plans, from vacation leave to Christmas parties, but it seems like this was done on a much larger scale.

  216. Drivesmenuts*

    Just need to vent: My coworker is a drama queen! She always has a crisis that affects her work. Usually it’s a personal problem, like a bad break up or random injury/illness or family crisis or her Tinder dates are acting crazy or she has to stay up all night to bake a cake for a friend’s kid’s birthday or whatever! She can’t focus on her real job because she always has some major drama going on. At first we were all sympathetic, now we are tired of it and mad. She’s screwed up a bunch of times and has caused our whole department to have major errors. She also has terrible time management because she spends most of her day talking about her issues to everyone she sees. She also is one of those people who can’t make a decision without being repeatedly and emphatically told what to do and how to do it. Did I mention she sells junk in an MLM company? She spends a lot of time at work on her phone working her “2nd job”. News flash: It’s not a real 2nd job if you just buy junk for yourself!! I am worried I’m going to tell her to “Shut up and do your job!”. Then I’ll get in trouble for being mean. I’m so annoyed and frustrated with her!

    1. AdminAscending*

      I think we work with the same person. Except mine is a Director of HR and cannot for the life of her let people know when she’s out of office. Its infuriating. An she always wants sympathy for doing the most basic elements of her job. ugh.

  217. Beatrice*

    Just wanted to share good news!

    I accepted a transfer/promotion a couple of weeks ago! I officially start on Monday, but I’m splitting my time between OldJob and NewJob for the first couple of weeks.

    OldJob has been so frustrating. We had a major initiative for the last 2 years that many people, including myself, were dedicated to full-time. I was told, hypothetically, that there might be a promotion for me within my OldJob team when the initiative wrapped up. It was a huge stretch project for me and I worked a ton of hours and took on a ton of responsibility, but the initiative wrapped up in January and the promotion didn’t pan out (for completely fair reasons that I understand, it’s just really disheartening.) Not only that, but there’s been a glut of extra lower-level work that needs to be done, so instead of getting a pay bump and exciting, challenging work to do, I’ve been stagnating at thankless work that isn’t very fulfilling. So I applied for NewJob.

    NewJob came with a title and salary bump. Not only that, I get to learn new, challenging stuff, and I *really* like my new team. It’s my first management job. For the first time in years, I’m happy with my title and pay grade! They’re also in the middle of a big review of job titles/pay grades and assessing employees’ potential, and I love their process – they do a really good job of making sure they’re fair and objective.

    I have some work I still need to wrap up for OldJob – some major edits to a complicated Excel tool I designed a couple of years ago, and some written process documentation that I’ve been putting off writing because frankly, the process sucks and I loathe the idea of putting this degree of suckiness in writing. But once I get that stuff done, I’m freeeeee!

  218. Jasper*

    I have a question about a job interview I just had, I wonder if anyone who does hiring has some insight for me? It wasn’t for an office job, so it’s a little out of step with the usual information here, but here’s the story in case this kind of thing happens in more professional environments as well.

    It was for a bartending position within a very, very large establishment that has a huge volume of patronage and sales, and I had the interview at their monthlyish job fair. I hadn’t been to this company’s job fair before, so I wasn’t expecting an interview on the spot, and I didn’t even know for sure what positions I would be applying for, so I was completely unprepared, and in my opinion, should not have been offered a job at all. My language was less professional than I would have liked, and I openly admitted to knowing next to nothing about the position. They asked me to list 3 classic cocktails and their ingredients, and I couldn’t do that. My only saving grace was that they asked me at the end why I would be a bad candidate, and I said “I would be a poor candidate because I’m not as knowledgeable as other candidates may be and could use more training, but I’m a quick study and I think that could make up for it.”

    They hired me on the spot though! Do you think it’s because they were desperate for any warm body to do the job? They also said I’d get a couple weeks to train and then I’ll have to take a test and pass to keep the job, or be shuffled to a different one within the establishment or quit if I fail. Do they maybe hire everyone except the absolute worst and see how many of us make the cut? I’m a little concerned about what the department is going to be like if I could be hired after such an awful interview. Is this a reasonable concern at all?

    1. Monroe*

      I’m not sure why you’re concerned? If they offer training and test at the end, the initial interview is most likely so they can get of sense candidates’ personality/attitude. Also, it’s pretty normal to feel like you bombed an interview then discover the interviewer thought you did well.

      I was recently looking to fill a vacancy in my team and the main criterion was good soft skills, since we can easily teach the other aspects of the job. My manager and I met a couple of candidates and we didn’t care at all if they already knew how to perform the role we needed to fill – we just wanted to have a chat about what the role entailed, ensure they were still interested, and get a sense of their working styles.

      1. Jasper*

        It would probably make the most sense that they were just looking for the right soft skills, you’re probably right. The interviewer did look visibly disappointed a couple times, but I might have just been reading too much into it.

        My concern was mostly that in workplaces I’ve been in before where any warm body got a job offer there were a loooot of conduct issues, harassment, etc, and I’ve left jobs because of it in the past. This one is a really, really good job with incredible benefits and I’d hate to have the same issues happen. But that’s probably just me being anxious since it’s happened in the past.

        1. Someone else*

          I think that’s a valid concern and certainly could be the case here. However, I also think it’s equally possible that they did intend to train and test anyway, so the skills you were lacking just simply weren’t a concern because they intended to teach you anyway. Basically, the “quick study” bit may have been enough to give you a shot. It could go either way, but I’d assume the latter until given evidence to the contrary.

  219. Handy nickname*

    Late for this week, but thought I’d give it a shot.

    I’m looking for short (3-4 minutes) videos to use in a weekly staff meeting. Context: retail grocery chain, attendees are department & store managers (8-10 people in each meeting). I’m looking for videos related to retail/customer service/sales or similar topics- anything that would be practical and interesting.

    I was thinking TED talks, but not finding a whole lot of relevant ones that are short enough. I found a video that I love by Dan Heath (link below) to give you an idea of what I’m looking for.

    Any suggestions? I’ll make a list :)

  220. Nacho*

    I know this is way too late and I’ll probably have to re-post this next week, but oh well.

    Would you guys consider Udemy a good way to boost your resume? Our company has a partnership with them where I can take pretty much any course free of charge, but I’m worried I’ll spend 20 hours learning SQL only for it to mean absolutely nothing to prospective employers because a certificate of completion from an unaccredited online educational website is worth slightly less than the electricity I wasted getting it. Should I try to find an accredited online university to learn this stuff from instead, even if it means spending money?

    1. Someone else*

      It’s not the certificate that means something. It’s if you actually know it. Even if you take a SQL course from something accredited, I can’t tell you how many people I know who took a series of SQL courses from universities and still really cannot functionally do anything with it. You could list a “real” cert if you want and shouldn’t really list Udemy on your resume, but really don’t worry about even having a cert saying you completed a training course. Worry about if you actually know what you’re doing, and if you do, list the skill, not how you learned it.

      1. SpaceNovice*

        +1. It’s knowing the skill that matters and you can list the skill directly on your resume.

    2. SpaceNovice*

      Udemy has a lot of good courses, but the course work cannot be put on your resume. However, the knowledge you GET from the courses can be used. You can also use Udemy to prep for taking accreditation tests that employers WILL care about, but you should make sure those accreditations are useful, first. My brother used online courses to get the skills necessary for some Oracle Java Certifications. Knowledge is still knowledge and therefore useful.

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