open thread – May 18-19, 2018

by Alison Green on May 18, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. OJ Mojo*

    Does it really matter what school you get your MBA from as long as it’s accredited?

    1. Chupalupe*

      I think so. An MBA is really about your class and the relationships that you’re forming with your peers, not so much the learning. It’s a unique grad degree in that sense. Who do you want to be connecting with for new jobs in 10 years?

      1. Boredatwork*

        +1 Unless you’re getting an MBA because your employer is paying for it/requires it, you should really go to the best school possible. Also, please don’t add “OJ Mojo, MBA” to your signature, it makes everyone want to gag.

        1. Susan K*

          +1 on the signature advice. My new manager has it in his signature and I cringe every time I see it.

          1. Pollygrammer*

            I had a fresh-out-of-college coworker who got some kind of certification (as in, took a test related to her undergrad degree and passed it) and insisted on putting the letters in her email signature. Sigh.

            1. AnonAnalyst*

              I used to work in event planning and for every event we would get a couple of people that would add their BA (John Smith, BA) when we asked how they wanted their name to appear on their badge and in the event attendee list. We used to chuckle about that since these were events aimed at professionals in a field where it was a given that people would have a Bachelors degree, at minimum.

              1. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

                Ahhhh! I work in an industry where there are a couple of fairly rigorous professional designations that are semi-common to see and are considered prestigious enough to include in your signature (think like CPA, etc.). And then this one girl, bless her heart, didn’t want to feel left out so she changed her signature to read First Name Last Name, MA. As in she had a Masters.

                Not to knock an MA, but this is an industry where MS’s or MBA’s are generally needed and nobody even cares if you have one, because everyone has at least that. Also her MA was in something completely unrelated (think an MA in Theater, but we were in finance industry).

                1. Live and Learn*

                  I used to belong to a professional association that asked about degrees and professional certifications in their membership registration form so I included my MA, thinking it was just them collecting data on the educational patterns of their membership. Until they mailed me my membership card to Jane Smith, MA. I deleted it pretty quick.

                2. circus peanuts*

                  I have a friend who does community theater and when they do the final bow and call out the actors names at the end, she insists on being called Dr. Jane Doe, PhD instead of Jane Doe like the rest of the cast. Her degree is not in theater.

                3. Julianne*

                  This is how things are where I work, too. My state requires a Master’s degree to advance from an initial to professional teaching license, and my district basically doesn’t hire teachers without Master’s degrees. Many of my colleagues in fact have more than one! So when people put M.Ed in their email signature, it’s like…yeah, duh.

              2. Foon*

                Is this okay to do with a CMP? I’ll be getting one eventually and this thread made me wonder.

                2. AMT*

                  The general rule is that if it’s professional correspondence and the credential is directly related to your qualifications to do your job (e.g. the initials give people important information about what your role is), go ahead and put it. I’m a therapist and I put my full name with post-nominal initials in my signature block above my contact info. That said, I wouldn’t put initials that don’t correspond to a relevant degree or licensable profession. So if you’re a nurse licensed in your state, you might put “RN” after your name, but it wouldn’t necessarily be appropriate to do so with minor, non-license-related titles (e.g. “MCT” for a Microsoft Certified Trainer). Not sure which of those things a CMP is considered in your field, but I’d look at the email signatures of people with that credential who have a good reputation in your field and go from there.

              3. VelociraptorAttack*

                I work at a university and when I started I did a quick clean of my new desk and found a lone business card for my predecessor. It was Name, BA. I will admit to not having a very charitable reaction to that.

                1. Not in US*

                  I work at a university and I was told to add all my credentials to my footer and business card because it’s expected here. In fact, I got a very different kind of reaction from some faculty once they realized I had an advanced degree. Is it silly – hell yes, but it’s expected here.

          2. Lucky*

            Worst are the ones that sign “Chad Chadwick, esq.” And it’s always east coast lawyers. We don’t do that on the west coast.

            1. Church Lady*

              I can understand the Esq., but just saying you have a JD? IDK, I am an Esq., but don’t sign things like that! Middle America, here!

              1. Leticia*

                Reading from the outside. I always understood that if someone signed Esquire it meant that they were jerks. I actually dated a NY lawyer and never got the point that it just means lawyer. JD means Juris Doctor, I imagine.

                In Brazil, lawyers have a Bachelor Degree, but since it was one of the first college degrees in these parts, they still want to be called “Doctors”, for “tradition” sake. I have a bachelor degree – in art, but still – and I refuse to call another BS bachelor “doutor”.

                1. Millennial Lawyer*

                  Esq. (esquire) means you’re an attorney. JD just means you graduated from law school. Esq. is a title attorneys earn, just like how doctors are Dr. So-and-So, it has no correlation with someone being a jerk or not. Plenty of lawyers are jerks who don’t refer to themselves as esq.

                2. Not So NewReader*

                  I was taught that “Esq.” simply means, “your servant”. I am on the eastern side of the country and I am seeing less use of it. I thought that was because most people no longer know what it means or pay attention, etc. I can see where long ago it might have helped people to identify who they were talking with or corresponding with. And probably also had plenty of room for fraudsters.

                3. Church Lady*

                  Back when I was in law school I heard some lawyers wanted to be called “Doctor” because the degree is “Juris Doctor.” Lame! You can still get an LLM and Law Ph.D. JD is not a terminal degree, necessarily.

                4. Spring*

                  You can also get an LLM without a JD, which is common if you’re coming from a foreign country, so I don’t know that’s it’s correct to say that it’s necessarily a more advanced degree.

            2. Delta Delta*

              East coast lawyer here, and I only sign “Delta Delta, Esq.” on certain correspondence and pleadings. Not on ordinary correspondence or in anything in my personal life.

              1. RVA Cat*

                Not to get into politics, but I would bet money that a certain newly infamous New York lawyer signs everyone A—- S—–, Esq.

              2. Church Lady*

                Exactly!
                Although I am a bar admitted lawyer, I’m not practicing right now. I literally work for a church. And our previous cleaning person was also an admitted (and practicing!) lawyer. So, signing “JD” just made me laugh and laugh. Like, everyone around here is a lawyer!

              3. Elysian*

                Yeah, I use Esq when I’m signing something where it isn’t otherwise clear I’m the lawyer, as opposed to a paralegal or secretary. I think my firm requires/defaults to it in my signature block, but I don’t routinely use it when I’m signing regular emails or anything. I don’t read too much into Esq. if it is in business correspondence where the person writing it is the lawyer.

                I did have a receptionist once sign an email to me as First Last, Esq. Since I was representing her company, it was super confusing to get an email that way. She was actually a practicing lawyer, but didn’t represent the company for which she was receptionist. I imagine it was probably really confusing to outsiders – it was to me!

            3. Teapot librarian (and recovering lawyer)*

              I was getting business cards at a new job where everyone’s cards said “Jane Smith, Esq.” They did not understand why I stated that I didn’t want that. My job title said “Attorney,” that’s all I need.

              1. Decima Dewey*

                Some librarians here, particularly those who went through the trainee program to get their library degree, put MS in LS in their email signature. Dudes, everyone in this system above a certain level (and its not a particularly high one) has that degree.

                1. Toastedcheese*

                  I reluctantly added MLS to my signature line about a year back. I’m an under-compensated public librarian who does a lot of collaboration with outside departments / organizations and who occasionally works with patrons who are under the impression that I am a volunteer. But in a larger library system, nooo way.

              2. EditGirl*

                I worked at a place where they absolutely insisted on including degrees on business cards. I tried to argue that it was stupid–at the time, I just had a BA and it looked idiotic. But that wasn’t a battle I won. I cringed every time I saw it.

            4. Chaordic One*

              One of my first jobs was as an admin in an insurance agency. I would frequently “accidentally” forget to put “esq.” on the billing statements of some of our clients and they actually were upset and complain to my boss about it.

            5. batmansrobyn*

              Chicago lawyer here! I’m in kind of a weird boat because I consult for a couple of different firms because I’m too lazy to be a true solo. I often use my own Gmail account for professional correspondence in lieu of any sort of Official Firm Email. I’ll usually put “BatmansRobyn, Esq” in my signature line so that when I’m contacting clients, their immediate response isn’t “who’s this weirdo sending me files to review.”

              My involvement in all my cases is fully disclosed by the principals I’m working with, but for whatever reason it seems to make clients feel better to see that I am Actually A Lawyer when I don’t have, like, a firm’s stamp of approval.

              I should probably just suck it up and get Justice League Consulting up and running but ugh that sounds like so much work

            6. Esq debate*

              Interesting to see many people saying they refer to themselves as “Esq.” on e-mail, business cards, etc. I was always taught that you should not address yourself as esquire; it’s a marker of respect that you use for other attorneys. So, my e-mail signature and business cards said Name, Attorney, but I would direct correspondence to John Smith, Esq.

          4. Mrs. Fenris*

            Oh, people who are pushy about putting their degree in their signature make me crazy. I sign DVM after my name in medical records and such. That’s it. I don’t put it on conference badges unless they ask for it-sometimes they want to distinguish between DVMs and RVTs. That’s pretty much it. I never ever use Dr. when I’m not at work. And don’t even get me started on blowhards who say Dr. Jane Doe, DVM.

          1. Windchime*

            “Hi everyone, I’m Windchime, CHS* and I work for the University”

            (* CHS = Cxxxx High School)

        4. I think this is the job I'm hiring for*

          I’m interviewing candidates for a job and one of them emailed a thank you note. His email signature said “Dr. Fergus Featherwhistle, Ph.D.” Oh no, sweetie. Just one is bad enough; both is redundant.

          1. snowshine*

            I can kind of understand that one, to make it clear that you’re not a medical doctor?

            1. Dorothy Zbornak*

              You can just put the “Ph.D.” at the end, in that case. No need for the “Dr.” in front.

          2. AFineSpringDay*

            My boss has a PhD, in a company where that is exceedingly rare (she came from another industry entirely) and she wanted me to list her travel profile on the travel booking system as “Dr” because sometimes that gets her upgrades! To think my dad (a college professor) has been wasting himself in coach all these years!

            1. Penny Lane*

              Except it doesn’t. The airlines and hotels aren’t impressed by the mere fact that someone is a doctor enough to throw upgrades at them. That’s extremely naive.

            2. Cedrus Libani*

              I refuse to mark myself as Dr on anything travel-related, because I don’t want to risk getting called in to handle a medical emergency. Wrong kind of doctor!

              We do use degrees on email signatures, though. Mostly for the clients. If the teapot sales rep has escalated a question to the PhD-level teapot designers, they want the client to be aware of where the answer came from.

        5. Environmental Compliance*

          I had a coworker once that insisted on putting REHS….which he got 25 years ago. That was strange.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            To clarify a little – coworker had in the 27 years he’d worked there, never wanted to have the certification listed, but then out of the blue wanted new business cards with it on there. No one really cared that he wanted to list them, but it came off a little weird with the sudden change. It’s not by any means a required certification in that field.

        6. Not a Morning Person*

          I agree, but my employer wants us to put any certification or degree in our work email signature and on our business card. I gag at my own signature.

        7. Half-Caf Latte*

          I think this is org- dependent. While I personally find people who insist on using titles at all times to often be pretentious, at my academic medical center, credentials are A Thing. Every meeting sign in sheet/ minutes specifically asks you to list credentials, and everyone lists them all. So I’m H.C. Latte, MSN, RN, CCRN-K, NEA-BC, including in my email signature.

          I’d never sign a check to the mechanic with all of that, though.

          1. Half-Caf Latte*

            Don’t get me started on the fact that minutes themselves will refer to “Dr. Smith” when a physician is named, but my terminally-degreed peers in other disciplines are “Florence Nightengale” and “Jean Watson”.

            1. Natalie*

              Isn’t that pretty routine in the medical field? It’s a place where the difference between medical doctor and philosophical doctor matters a great deal.

              1. Half-Caf Latte*

                In meeting minutes or around the table, where you are just referring to people? Using Dr. Smith and Florence sets up a power paradigm. Either we’re okay with first names, and it’s Pat and Florence, or we’re not, and it’s Dr. Smith and Ms. Nightingale.

                I’m not talking about in patient-facing settings.

                1. Natalie*

                  Oh, I see, since you used the full name for the non-medical people I didn’t realize they were just being referred to by their first names. That is odd.

              2. DArcy*

                Yes, but the differences between a medical doctor and a pharmacy doctor or a pharmacology doctor are equally significant, yet there is *no* social norm of refusing to refer to pharmacists and pharmacologists by the title of “doctor” — only doctors of nursing.

                Moreover, this is something that medical associations have been trying to outright enshrine in law. They literally want to make it *illegal* for doctors of nursing to be referred to by the title of “Doctor”, while allowing *absolutely all other* healthcare professionals with a terminal degree to retain that distinction.

                1. WS*

                  My mum is a doctor of nursing (recently retired) and this is a very familiar struggle. It’s very, very gendered, too – the people who are most insistent on it seem to be either male doctors who insist on calling female doctors by their first names, or female doctors who are constantly trying to assert that they are not nurses.

            2. BA*

              That’s weird. The physicians I know just intro themselves first and last name and the other health care people who have a non-medical doctorate intro themselves as Dr. So and So.

              1. TL -*

                I know a whole bunch of MDs/PhDs and they are “Dr. Medicine” in medical settings – patient interactions, meetings with hospital staff, and responding to emergencies on a plane – and FirstName in non-medical settings – non-clinical research, meetings with anybody who is not hospital staff, grocery shopping…

          3. Live and Learn*

            My sister once wrote me a check signed FirstName LastName, RN. I asked her about it and she said she didn’t even know she did it. At work when she signs patient forms she has to include her credentials for legal reasons so it’s force of habit.

        8. NacSacJack*

          Thank you!! We have someone who has an MBA and several certificates and everything is listed on her signature. I feel worthless. PS Thank you to the OP and those responding stating its all about the school and the relationships, not about the degree. Makes me feel better about not pursuing one.

          1. Church Lady*

            Nac, I took a few MBA classes. Just, stultifying. *So much jargon* *Ugh*

            If someone paid me to do it, I probably would. Otherwise? Nah!

      2. Specialk9*

        It only matters if you’re getting one of those super high-paid high-pressure business jobs, and then you’d better have gone to a school like Wharton or London. If you’re in the average kind of job, I don’t think it’s worth the trouble and expense to go to a school that’s ranked 15th, or 30th, or such. Just make sure it’s accredited (or aligned with a broader university that’s accredited).

        1. OJ Mojo*

          That’s along the lines of what I was thinking. This one is aligned with LSU, I had just never heard of it/had any experience with branch schools until I was already employed and moved to NC where there’s tons of UNC branches.

          1. Jules the Third*

            If you’re in NC, check out my post below on UNC-CH / NCSU / Duke.

            Also – the different UNC schools have different levels of quality – the UNC system is set up in 3 tiers, with UNC-CH and NCSU as the top tier flagship campuses. I can’t speak to Wake Forest, but Appalachian / UNCG / UNCW / UNCC are definitely second tier business schools. Easier to get into, less challenging coursework, lower prestige. If you’re looking to use an MBA to change careers, it will be easier with a UNC-CH / NCSU degree. If you’re looking for a certification to bump you along in your current career, it’s less of an issue.

            Also – this varies by industry! For example, iirc, UNCG has a strong Health Professional focus, so a UNCG MBA is great if you’re in the health care field.

            1. OJ Mojo*

              I was looking at ECU and never heard of UNCG. I’ll check that out being in the biotech/pharma industry.

      3. Poniez R Us*

        Please do not rush into getting an MBA! You are still young in your career:
        1. If you get an MBA now, you are taking a pay bump now (assuming you will get this upon graduating) vs in the future when you have a higher title and are moving into management roles AND can get more money.
        2. You DO NOT need an MBA to be a financial analyst. I have been an FA for 5 years on track to make senior this year. I have amazing experience without an MBA. I will get one when I can afford it and am ready to move into management. I have worked for F500 companies without one in high level capacity and exposure roles without an MBA.
        3. Consider your job market. I am from Chicago where there are a lot of MBAs. Some are from great schools like Booth and Kellog, some are from mid tier schools like DePaul, and then some from UIC. All good and accredited schools BUT what sets them apart is the networking opportunities. This is what opens the door in a competitive market where everyone is smart, qualified, and has an MBA.
        4. Many have mentioned that an MBA is a networking opportunity. As much as you will want to get out of relationships in your program, what will you bring to the table? What value will you add with your short experience relative to those who are already in senior and management roles? The worst is being on a team project with someone who does not yet have the experience and intuition to get a project organized and executed. I am not saying you are incapable of adding value but do consider the level of experience your peers will have vs you.

        Again, please do not rush. MBAs are expensive and take up a ton of time. Look into a blue big box store headquartered in Mooresville, NC. They are hiring like crazy in their Finance organization right now. Get the experience and exposure right now to make you qualified to get into a top tier school. Of course, it all depends on what you want. Not everyone wants/needs to be in the best program because some just need to check a box. Consider what level you want to get to in Finance and what successful people did to get there. Do not rush it!

        1. BlueberryHill*

          Counterpoint: time. If you have plenty of time outside of work for extra activities, now might be good. If you wait until later in your career, you may also find other demands on your time outside of work, or other drawbacks(my co-worker did not renew lease in order to find apartment that was mid-way between college and job. if further along, that moving might not be an option (more stuff, spouse, house).

          1. OJ Mojo*

            That’s where I’m at. I have time, can pay for it without loans, and my boss suggested it. I’ve thought about it for a year and a half now.

            1. dillydally*

              The industry you work in, the company you work for, the type of work you are doing, the prestige of the college the mba will come from. Tuition reimbursement, loans, support of company, support of family, amount of free time, dependents, family planning.

              Consider it all

        2. Spreadsheets and Books*

          Seconding this. I’m a SFA for a F500 and I don’t have an MBA, nor do I feel like I necessarily need one in the near future.

          An MBA is an investment, not a decision to be made on a whim.

      4. Jules the Third*

        My experience is that it matters in some industries and geographies, but not in most, and bus school concentrations matter more. I have not found the networking effect to be very strong.

        I live in NC, USA. The three top MBA program options here are Duke, UNC-CH and NCSU, all within about 40 miles from each other, so I looked at each of them carefully. Duke was heavily finance oriented. UNC-CH was generalist, NCSU was tech and supply chain oriented. They are all of similar enough quality that a good student would get a good, usable degree.

        If I wanted to leave NC, then Duke was the best choice – it had the most name recognition outside the state. Inside NC, Duke or UNC-CH would be fine in Charlotte Finance. For anything other than Finance inside NC, Duke was a waste of money. UNC-CH and NCSU had a stronger focus on Entrepreneurship. UNC-CH had joint classes with some of their Comp Sci masters students; NCSU had a *lot* of joint classes with their Engineering, Comp Sci and Design students. NCSU the strongest Supply Chain program, with summer internships and study projects with multiple car / heavy equipment manufacturers.

        At top-tier schools, you are in class with a higher percentage of smart, driven people, so the networking effect may be stronger. I think, though, that Finance is the only area where a top-tier school gets you significant advantage over 2nd tier schools. I know it does not in manufacturing / supply chain.

        What you want to *do* with the MBA should be your guide to which MBA you choose.

      5. Artemesia*

        MBAs are a dime a dozen. IMHO never get one until you have some experience in the workplace preferably in a management possible track. Never get one except from a top school if you expect them to be a ticket to a fabulous job. Yeah. Harvard MBAs have opportunities; no graduates of third rate but accredited schools generally don’t have many. If you have a good career but an MBA is supported by your office or is seen as a route to advancement in that organization then the school matters less and it may be worth doing and once you get that promotion and more management experience, the degree may be useful along with that experience when you want to take the next step. The worst is an MBA from a less well known or regarded school right out of undergraduate. This person is considered over-qualified and under-qualified simultaneously. A masters degree is rarely a ticket for someone without experience in a field unless it is a minimal credential for entry.

    2. KL*

      It can. An MBA helps, but different companies know how rigorous or what philosophies institutions teach.

    3. Temperance*

      It definitely does. Just look for the old post from the angry person with the MBA from the U of Phoenix.

      1. OJ Mojo*

        Definitely wasn’t going that route. They are not accredited by AACSB, where this program is. It’s a sister school of LSU from my understanding but I’m from VA where branch colleges are not common at all so I wasn’t sure how this worked.

        1. Jesca*

          Yeah UoP and schools like that are to be avoided, but unless you are going into huge X corporate work at super high level elite master God level, then a mid-level accredited University will be fine. Just do some research on their general reputation and what not.

    4. fposte*

      First, keep in mind that not all accreditation is created equal.

      Second, the answer depends on what you’re doing with the MBA. Are you already on a track and just need a credential to box-check? Are you staying in the area where the school is well known? Or are you looking to take the degree across country and make it in Manhattan?

      1. OJ Mojo*

        I’m a new college grad (May 2016) and my boss highly suggested I get my MBA for future opportunities. I looked at job postings for a financial analyst because that’s what I really want to be doing, and 85% had the requirement of an MBA listed. The school I’m considering is a branch of LSU, online, where I’m currently in NC. I hope to stay in NC but the local university admission requirements are very rigorous and I simply don’t qualify. Other local online options would take me close to 3 years where this option would only take me 18 months. All hold AACSB accreditations and are non-profits.

        1. TheAssistant*

          I would say talk to financial analysts to get a sense of how rigorous your degree needs to be.

          I briefly considered (okay, took the GMAT twice, attended a boot camp, threw money at a consultant, applied, and interviewed) MBA programs – the field I was trying to enter with one really required a Top 10-15 school. Most fields don’t, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go to the best school you can. Talking to other successful analysts in the field – and people who hire analysts – will give you a better sense of what you really need. If you need a “better” degree than the LSU program, then saving 18 months won’t do you much good.

        2. Anon Today*

          I’d encourage some extra digging with the programming. Sadly, there are many state and local colleges that have, otherwise, solid academic reputations, that use curriculum developed by the for-profit world (most notably the Apollo group, that also develops all the University of Phoenix’s programming) because it’s cheap, and MBA programs are cash cows to many smaller colleges. And the colleges that do that end up gaining a reputation (especially in the local community) of offering a subpar program.

          This may not be the case with the programs that you are investigating, but I think it’s worthwhile digging further. Good quality programs tend to have tough admission standards..

          1. Specialk9*

            My university-working friends/family explained that all masters degrees are cash cows, and expecting them to give two spits about you is unrealistic. They care about undergrads and PhDs, because both impact their ratings and reputation, but grad students are just $$$. I found that to be true.

            1. Jesca*

              I agree. Just look at how many universities big and small offer them online now. Its mostly a money making thing.

            2. Anon Today*

              I wouldn’t say that all master’s degree’s are cash cows. My theory is if you can get funding for your master’s degree then it’s not a cash cow, if you can’t then it is.

              1. Specialk9*

                I meant from the college’s point of view. They view masters students as income generators, without impact on reputation.

            3. P*

              PhD’s are cash cows, too. When my sister was trying to get hers in Hawaii, TPB kept disallowing (is that the right word?) her research and rejecting her dissertation. After seven years, she finally gave up.

              1. Lily Rowan*

                At my highly elite university, PhD students cost us money. Most master’s programs are cash cows here.

                1. Lora*

                  PhD students are nevertheless cheaper than hiring adjuncts to cover the classes they teach. At least in my Monster Research I grad school. Most of the people in my department whose dissertations and publications were mysteriously never quite sufficient were teaching all the big Pre-Med Requirement courses nobody else wanted to teach.

                2. Lily Rowan*

                  Hilariously, later on Friday, I was in a meeting where a dean called a particular master’s program “not a cash cow.”

              3. Artemesia*

                At top universities PhD students never pay tuition. they either admit you with a ride or they reject you.

                Masters degrees are cash cows everywhere and there is little financial aid except debt. They also have much lower standards for admission than elite undergrad schools or PhDs (at the same institutions).

        3. Falling Diphthong*

          Is there a job that is just below or adjacent to financial analyst that you could aim for? And segue to financial analyst from that? (This might mix with some further education/credentialing, but you would be stepping there with a lot more knowledge–like you had completed steps 1-8, step 9 was this credential, these awarders of the credential were viewed favorably in your local subfield and so worth the investment.)

          I am a little leery of the online aspect meaning you get much less networking out of the degree. A fposte says, it’s one thing if you’re on a track and your employer has clearly laid out that to move up from job A to job B one needs a certification and so you need a training course that lets you check off that box. It’s another if you’re hoping people seeing MBA on a resume will figure you must be qualified as a financial analyst. Not qualifying for the local schools is a point against this working. The quicker program might be a plus (concentrated for busy professionals) or might be a negative (slapdash to trap those who don’t know the right questions to ask). The person I know who just got an MBA going to school full-time went for two years, and a quick online search says that’s the norm for full-time MBA programs–so a part time program that takes only 18 months would raise some serious side-eye if anyone was asking me to write a check for this program in the hopes it paid off down the road.

          This might be a place for a couple of informational interviews with people who have the job you want.

          1. OJ Mojo*

            They have a structured program of 7 week condensed classes vs the regular 15 week class structure. So taking back to back classes would allow me to take 2 classes a semester where I would only take one in the standard structure. The LSU college only requires 10 classes and the NC college requires 13 classes. Just curious if you think that’s still odd? I have taken 5 week classes before because they were geared towards busy professionals and there is a professional MBA offered at a local highly respected college that only takes 1 year because it somewhat follows that structure as well.

            1. Grits McGee*

              If you don’t mind sharing, which LSU college/branch is the program you’re interested in associated with? As a former LSU student and employee, I can definitely say that not all LSU system programs are… created equally. I know that you don’t qualify for anything local right now, but if you’re paying for the MBA yourself, it may be worth it to wait 4 years and invest in a better program.

              1. Grits McGee*

                Oops, I see downthread that it’s through Shreveport. Honestly, not to knock my former home state, but I wouldn’t spend the time and money for an online MBA from a small Louisiana regional university unless a) your employer is footing the bill or 2) this is literally just a rubber stamp that you need for a promotion.

                Given that you’re still so new out of college, I would highly recommend being patient and waiting a few years to see how your career develops. I worked for 4-5 years before going back to grad school, and I was so much better prepared to make the most out the program than the rest of my cohort.

                1. prettyshinythings*

                  I wouldn’t spend time or money on *any* online MBA program, but maybe that’s just me. My top 20-program was big on case studies and other group projects, and how do you do all of this virtually? It’s near impossible. And you don’t build the same connections with others that do you in person.

                2. Library Land*

                  I’m not sure why I can’t directly reply to prettyshinythings, but in terms of online programs with group projects, it works just as well as in-person group projects (that is to say, sometimes it’s fabulous and sometimes it’s terrible). I did my entire MLIS (part-time) online through a top school and basically had three years of group projects. I am also many states away from most of my classmates which added another element of when can we meet – but we always managed. There’s lots of emails, skype meetings, and a ton of Google docs.

                  I also know many of the local online students who would try to take as many in-person classes as possible because they were much easier than the online ones. The whole stereotype of online classes being a joke is perpetuated by the same people who would treat the in-person classes as a joke. And much in the same way that you can’t compare in-person classes from a top tier school and one from a bargain school, you can’t compare an in-person class from a top tier school and and online one from a bargain school.

                  I made many life-long friends/connections and I can’t see that fading just because we live more than 20 minutes apart. I also know that some people didn’t – once again exactly the same as it would be in person.

            2. Awkward Interviewee*

              I don’t know much about MBAs, but I do work in higher ed. If condensed courses are legit, you are doing the same amount of work, just in a shorter time period. So taking two 7 week courses one after the other in a semester should be about the same amount of time commitment / work as taking two 15 week courses at the same time. Unless a degree is highly sequential (so that course 1 is a pre-req for course 2, etc. all the way up – and I didn’t think MBAs were all that sequential?) 7 week vs. 15 week courses shouldn’t necessarily affect time to degree all that much. I also would be a little leery about doing an MBA from a branch campus that’s so far away. If I were you I would check rankings – if the LSU branch school is lower than mid-tier, and the NC college is mid-tier-ish, I think the NC school would probably be worth it.

        4. gbca*

          I’m a manager in finance (FP&A in a very large company), and an MBA is definitely not a requirement for an analyst role. Yes, we have plenty of MBAs around, but at the analyst level we don’t require it. I would still apply for those jobs you’re seeing if they look like a good fit otherwise. On the employer side, we’ve actually had a slightly tougher time attracting talent lately because unemployment is so low, so it’s a good time to get into the field.

          1. OJ Mojo*

            I sadly don’t meet the requirements otherwise… They ask for 5+ years experience in my area, and when I apply outside of my area for 0-2 years experience, I’m not considered when I meet 80% of the requirements even though I’m very much open to relocating. I mainly looked at the postings to see what it would take to be considered for that kind of position since I don’t know anyone who is one or manages one.

            1. Spreadsheets and Books*

              I’m one.

              If you’re seeing FA roles that want 5+ years of experience, those sound like senior roles. There are plenty of entry level analyst roles out there. If you’re not getting hits with a related degree and a little experience, I almost guarantee that your resume is the issue, not your lack of MBA. If you go over to r/financialcareers on reddit, there are lots of people with the right background who can help you review your (edited, anonymized) resume.

              An MBA this early in your career will only hurt you, especially if you do it at a no-name school. Good MBA programs like to see ~5 years of experience for a reason.

        5. Not in US*

          As a new grad, I would strongly recommend that you wait another year or two before doing an MBA. You will get MUCH more out of it if you have more experience working in the real world before you do it.

          In terms of school – while I agree you should go to the best school you can, what that means in practice can be very different depending on what you want to do. I did my MBA in order to facilitate a fairly significant career change. I did not need to go to the “best” school. I went to a local university with a solid reputation but it cost less than some of the other schools I could get into and at the time it enabled me to bypass the first year requirements to get my CPA which is where I was headed. I didn’t need to go to the equivalent of our ivy league – I wasn’t doing to work in high Finance or in anything that would require those kinds of connections. I have connections in the community I want to live in and it’s served me well.

          I would also strongly suggest that an online MBA of any kind is not a great idea. If it’s one class, fine. But the whole degree – or even half the degree – no.

          1. OJ Mojo*

            Are you against the online degree because of the networking? That’s really my only option if I stay in this area. I’m not able to qualify for the local school.

            1. Natalie*

              I don’t mean this in a rude way, but if you can’t get into the local, more reputable school that might be feedback worth paying attention to. Obviously it depends on the reason, but if it’s something like needing more work experience, maybe you should consider that there’s a good basis for that requirement.

            2. Not in US*

              I don’t think your learning in an online setting will be great. A big part of the educational value of the MBA is the group work and the case studies. You’re young, I did my MBA with a few students who were really green, and it really showed in their answers and in group discussions. You really do get more out of it all – and make a better impression on the people you want to network later with if you wait a few years to do it.

              Honestly, I think unless you go to a tier one school, the networking value is over rated. There’s benefit, yes, but you also get similar benefits in most careers by working a few places, doing a good job and staying in contact with those former colleagues. I switched careers and still ended up providing background and connections for great former co-workers in my old industry for the first few years. I’m still occasionally asked for recommendations – although a lot less than before since I switched careers since I’ve been out for almost 10 years.

            3. Genny*

              I’m currently finishing up an online degree in IR. The online platform is wonderful, and I highly recommend it to people who need more flexibility (I was able to continue working, which required lengthy international travel, and doing school). The caveat though is I’m going to top-ten ranked school in IR.

              If you choose to go the online route, do your homework. Ask the admissions person a lot of questions. Visit the campus and see what kind of support they have for online students and talk to an academic advisor. Sit in on at least one virtual class to make sure that method of learning works for you (and if there is no class, if it’s just work you complete on your own and then submit to a prof, do not go to that school).

        6. Wehaf*

          If you want to be a financial analyst you are better off studying for and taking the CFA exams; that’s worth way more to investment banks than an MBA is.

          1. AliceW*

            Agreed. Get your CFA. I work in finance and make very good money with just a BA. Never needed an MBA and I’m in management. If you get your toe in the door, do excellent work, you can get promoted and make good money as a financial analyst without ever spending the money or your time on an MBA. Gain experience first- even if it’s at the bottom. Smart folks can move up very quickly in a good organization.

          2. AnonAnalyst*

            I also would suggest this (or at least, taking a closer look at whether the CFA will get you where you want to go or if you’ll actually need an MBA). Several of my classmates ended up having to take the CFA exams within a year or two of finishing the MBA program, and I remember one being frustrated that she couldn’t get the jobs she wanted with just the MBA. She started studying for the CFA during the second half of the program so she didn’t have to wait even longer to get into the role she wanted. I think she found the MBA program valuable overall, but had she known, I suspect she would have just gotten her CFA and seen what career paths that opened up rather than starting with an MBA.

        7. Jules the Third*

          2016 grad? Continuing in your current Finance career?

          Don’t do it yet. Wait a few 2 – 3 years. Save up for it, and see if there’s any way to improve your chances at a top tier like Duke or UNC-CH. When I applied, NCSU told me the GMAT / GRE scores were their best predictor of success. This helped a lot – my undergrad GPA was only 3.2, but my GRE scores were 98th percentile.

          Consider trying to take some of the free classes being offered by Harvard / MIT. They’ll help *you* figure out if distance learning this stuff works for you.

          If you go ahead now to just punch the credential, Wake Forest looks really good, or ECU, and distance learning is probably ok. But if you ever want to leave NC, wait and try for Duke, and go in person – the name recognition and networking will make a difference.

          (I’m an NCSU MBA, 2002, supply chain concentration gpa 3.95; under grad UNC-CH Econ / Poli Sci; dated a Duke Econ major for 6 years, so we used to study together – Duke / CH have really similar quality, but Duke has more name recognition out of state.)

          Link to a good list of NC school in my name. They show some that offer distance learning.

          1. OJ Mojo*

            ECU was the school I was looking at doing aside from LSU-S. I’m currently not in a finance career path. I’m a tax associate in the accounting department with a growing biotech/pharma company and I’m looking for avenues to branch into the finance analyst path where I could be budget focused. Taxes were the exact reason I didn’t pursue an accounting degree ironically…..

        8. Financial Analyst*

          Hi – financial analyst in the SF Bay Area here. I have a BA and I passed the CPA exam but am not licensed. In my area/industry (wine, north bay) I’m always being hit up by recruiters for new FA opportunities and there are always FA jobs posted. Very rarely do I see one that lists MBA as a requirement.

          Eventually I want an MBA too but that’ll be more like when I’m moving into upper management/VP level work.

          If your field/area requires MBAs 85% of the time and that’s the field/area you want to commit to, then yes you’d better get yours too. But do make sure you’re really comfortable staying there for the long run before committing to the MBA as you might find less stringent requirements elsewhere.

    5. Alternative Person*

      The prestige of the institution can make quite a bit of difference as well as the exact content of the programme. It might be accredited sure, but if the content/choice/structure doesn’t work for you, it might be better to save your money until something you really want comes along.

      I’d say it’s worth doing some research to make sure the MBA you chose gets you skills that are valuable to you, or has networking opportunities that could be useful to you, or the department has sub-specialties that are relevant to you. You could also reach out to your current network and see where they got their MBAs.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah, some MBA programs aren’t great, but the broader school is really impressive to the general public. That’s not a bad investment, in my mind.

    7. Phoenix Programmer*

      I say no. Then again most people I know with an MBA are irritated that they are still in the same job making the same money as before.

      1. Seriously?*

        I think it depends. Some MBA programs have a strong networking component, which can help. It isn’t the name of the school so much as the connections you make.

        1. Anna*

          I’ve seen the comment about the networking a couple of times on this thread and I have to wonder…Are you essentially saying going into debt for several thousands of dollars is really worth the MBA because you might meet someone who might be able to help you later? I mean, couldn’t you just accomplish that by just networking, getting to know your coworkers, thereby saving you the time and money?

          1. Specialk9*

            Did you say *several thousand* dollars? Like, $5,000 to get an MBA?

            Oh my, I wish. My student debt was $50,00 and that was after my company paid a ton.

          2. Natalie*

            I don’t think it refers to your classmates as much as the alumni network, which can potentially be an enormous boost.

          3. Jules the Third*

            It *really* depends on the industry and the purpose of your MBA.
            Finance – networking / prestige matter if you’re trying to get to one of the NYC firms.
            Entrepreneurship – networking matters a *lot*, prestige less so. Investors love to see things coming out of universities. Some universities are better than others at licensing their tech for commercialization. If you are looking for an MBA to help you start companies, check how many people are in their tech licensing dept, and the $$s of the deals they’ve made.
            Supply chain – it matters to start, but not so much after 10 years.

            MBAs (and any degree, really) are mostly shortcuts to the same results you get by doing a variety of jobs and networking with others in your industry. Coworkers isn’t enough, you really need to be in an industry org of some kind.

            You do get some tools that help you look at the Big Picture for your company or industry that sometimes you wouldn’t figure out for yourself. I’m not convinced that the MBA version of those tools is all that much more than the BA version, but I am sure it’s stuff I wouldn’t have figured out for myself without a lot of trial and error.

            To cash in on an MBA, you have to make some kind of change. Either your company pays for it, OR you switch companies after you get it, OR you use it to switch careers. I used an MBA to go from tech support / web dev / non-profits to supply chain at NCSU. The additional pay I got from the new industry paid for the whole degree and 18mo I took off work within 4 years. But I also know students with decent grades from my class who have never been able to use their MBA. It was a bad hiring year.

          4. Penny Lane*

            Anna, it’s networking with people OUTSIDE your current network. Not schmoozing with your coworkers which you can do for free.

            You don’t think Harvard or Kellogg has a tremendous network?

          5. gbca*

            So, networking is definitely not the biggest reason you get an MBA. If that’s all you’re looking for, you’re absolutely right – you can do that in a far cheaper and less time-intensive way. The number one reason I went was for the recruiting program. Having companies come to you is huge. I was a career-changer, so no one would have looked at my resume before for a financial planning & analysis job. But I ended up with multiple internship and full-time offers at great companies through my MBA program. Now that I’m a few years out, the network comes in handy more. But it certainly isn’t the primary reason I went back to school.

          6. EBITDA*

            I have to chuckle at this. I went to a top-tier business school with almost a thousand students per class. Regardless of whether I built deep relationships with any of those people over two years, I am astounded by the reliability with which I can email my classmates with various requests (an email intro, a 15-minute crash course on an industry, etc.) and get a response within the day. And that’s only a single class – in my experience reaching out to the broader alumni network, it’s still been the case that you’ll get a response almost every single time. I hear this logic a lot (you can just network on your own time!) but I would literally have to live many more lifetimes to match the networking potential of a 100k-member, highly-engaged alumni network.

      2. CmdrShepard4ever*

        Yes and No. I have heard from some professionals that the degree granting institution matters mostly for the first or second job after graduation. After that it is really a matter of track record at those jobs. For example a rock star candidate with a MBA from a Tier 2 institution will look better than a mediocre candidate from a Tier 1 institution. But on the other hand with two equally rock star candidates the tie breaker could be the institution that the degree was obtained from. Also a big think is the alumni network. I graduated from a state school in western NY, it is well known in the area with lots of alumni, but where I am currently working in a big Midwestern city the network is small to non-existent.

      3. Specialk9*

        I make twice as much as I did pre-MBA. That said, I was wildly underpaid, and changed jobs a few times.

        1. OJ Mojo*

          Being underpaid was one of my motivators too. Where did you get your MBA? …if you don’t mind me asking

    8. Denise*

      It depends on what your goals are. For certain jobs and companies (namely management consulting), absolutely. To get a promotion with your current employer into management, not so much.

      Basically, school reputation determines recruitment partnerships, which in turn provides employment options. Look carefully at the companies that recruit at prospective schools to see how they align with your goals. Alternatively, look at your target companies to see where they recruit most heavily.

    9. Lemon Zinger*

      Absolutely. There are many, many different kinds of accreditation. Accreditation in and of itself is not a measure of quality. Just look at for-profits like DeVry and the University of Phoenix. My relative got his MBA from UPhoenix and it isn’t recognized by any employers outside of his current company as a good thing.

      1. OJ Mojo*

        I misspoke in my original comment in that regard. The two schools I’m looking at are non-profits and AACSB accredited. One is a branch of LSU I haven’t heard of being from VA and located in NC, the other is a local option but would take me 3x as long to complete and $7k more. Both would be online, part time in order to keep my full time job

        1. brightstar*

          Do you mind if I ask the name of the branch? I’m from Baton Rouge, an LSU alumni, and may be able to give some information about it, though I’m no expert about MBA’s.

    10. Penny Lane*

      Of course. The top business schools (Wharton, Kellogg, Harvard, etc) offer opportunities that others don’t. They aren’t interchangeable at all.

    11. gbca*

      Depends on why you are getting it. If your company just requires one to move ahead and you’re not looking to move, probably not. If you’re trying to get a new/better job, absolutely. I went to a top 15 program specifically for the recruiting. We had top companies coming to us for on-campus recruiting. I also developed a great network of classmates who I can reach out to.

      1. OJ Mojo*

        Honestly my reason is a little bit of both. I wouldn’t mind moving up in my company but I will eventually want a new/better job. I would have to do this online because I don’t qualify for the local option that would allow me to go on campus so I’m not sure networking will even be the biggest component for me.

        1. Safetykats*

          I’m a little worried about your description of the degree as a lot less work. Less money is fine; less work is not. I would really ask around to see what the people who matter in your thought process (for example, managers in the department for which the MBA is a requirement) think of this degree. I’ve worked with several professionals who sank significant time and money into degrees that turned out to be not acceptable to our org, which is actually kind of tragic – because for the same time and money they could have been 2/3 done with a degree that would have been accepted.

    12. Argh!*

      It depends on whether it matters what type of company you want to work for and what kind of position you hope to get.

    13. HRM*

      Agree with everyone else here… depends on why you’re getting it and what you intend to do with it.

      For my purposes, I picked a good school – not a great one. It was recently listed as being in the top 75 out of 500 MBA programs. No, it’s not Harvard – but it’s a decent school with a good reputation so it serves the purpose I need it to.

    14. Jules the Third*

      Hey Alison – can you pass my email to OJ Mojo?

      OJ, if you want to talk through NC options, I have some familiarity there, if you want to tap it. :D

      1. OJ Mojo*

        Yes I would, please! I just feel stuck and I would greatly appreciate talking it through with someone who is knowledgeable but objective.

    15. EBITDA*

      Ok, after reading through all the responses and your follow-ups, I have to strongly recommend that you do not do this. You sound like you’re looking to escape your current job/function/industry or some combination of the three, and that’s a terrible reason to pay for an MBA. My classmates and I referred to our MBA program as a reset button, and you only get one. If you go for poorly-thought-out reasons, and you don’t bust your a$$ to go to the best institution you can possibly get into, you’ve wasted your reset button and are now stuck with a mediocre degree and the likely-mediocre job you’ll have gotten as a result, as well as debt (or lost savings/capital appreciation, if you pay cash). Based on your follow-up, you are hearing what you want to hear/soliciting approval because you really want that escape hatch. Stick it out for a couple of years, study hard for your GMATs, and craft a really strong application and then see if you can’t get into a top 30 school. The difference in outcomes will be well worth it.

      1. OJ Mojo*

        Thank you for taking the time to look through everything. In a way, I believe you are right. This is my first full-time job and with my boss encouraging me to get one, I just felt like it was necessary if I was going to stay here. I don’t like what I’m doing and the real eye opener was to think about if I would still get my MBA if I got a different job. I wouldn’t – at least this fall, when I was planning on it. So I appreciate your candid advice and insight because I am now looking at this differently, even if it wasn’t what I wanted to hear.

    16. MissDissplaced*

      I think it matters somewhat, but it’s not the be all-end all. Generally, you want to pick a grad school based on their reputation for YOUR major. Some expensive Ivy schools might not offer the best grad program in some majors, and vice versa. All I can say is you’ve got to shop for your grad school as you would buy a home or other large investment.

  2. Friday and Bored Again*

    Genuinely curious what people do at work when they have nothing to actually work on. I don’t mean ‘suddenly have a free ten minutes between meetings’, I mean literally have nothing to work on for a few hours.

    My position is a support position so I rely on my supervisors giving me work to do. Usually it’s very steady, always something to keep me busy. The last couple weeks, I keep finding myself with more and more downtime. I often get all my work done by lunch and then have nothing else to do for the afternoon. Of course, stuff pops up around the office for me to do, but there’s still been a lot of downtime recently. I try to fill the time with organizing my files, cleaning up my email, update the calendar, prep notes/agendas for upcoming meetings, little stuff like that. But when all that busy work is done, I’m still left with nothing do to. My team knows they can send me things at any point, there’s just not much for me to do.

    I think this is stemming from a temporary lull between projects but I’m still not sure what I should do with this sudden and random downtime. Of course, I’d love to grab my book and read, or take a brief nap in my car. But what should I actually be doing during this time?

    1. soupmonger*

      Do your team know you have these periods of downtime? If not, why not flag it up to them? Tell them you have free time that afternoon, and do any of them have work you can help with?

      1. mark132*

        This is excellent advice. One of the more aggravating things at work is to watch a coworker screwing off day after day while you have too much to do. And one of the more satisfying things at work is a coworker with spare cycles offloading some work from you when you are overloaded.

      2. Chilleh*

        This is such a great idea. I have a colleague in a different job classification then me who has had free time lately some afternoons. We are full on her classification and short staffed on mine, so she has been asking to help me with some of my duties that cross over with hers. It’s been such a great QoL change for me to more fully bfocus on other aspects of my job and she is happy to have projects to work on, so it’s been great.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Can you find some online trainings or help pages for things you’d like to do? Like learn pivot tables, or SQL, or something like that? (I can only think of tech tasks, and I know that free tutorials on those are plentiful, but I’m sure they’re out there on almost any subject.)

      1. Jesca*

        This is what I do. Plus my company has a huge sharepoint with tons of company information and what not.

        Also, I know people above recommended letting your team know, but I can say from experience that this can end badly – like when you have to start saying no. I would actually broach it with your boss first to make sure she is OK with it. I did this a couple months ago and then ended up being told by my boss that she does not want me to get caught up in the other team member’s work (vastly different from mine) so that I always available for the things she needs me for.

        And yeah people will grumble, but they grumble about a lot. They never learned the whole “don’t worry about what that person’s job is” motto.

        1. GlitsyGus*

          I am also in the boat of if you want to flag it up be very clear that this is possibly a temporary lull and as Jesca suggested go to your direct manager only and let her know the score.

          You don’t want Mitsy thinking you have time to rearrange her meeting schedule so it’s color coordinated every single week for the next year when really you only had time to do it for three weeks while you were waiting for Fergus’s XYZ project to get out of the planning stage.

          I also second the trainings or learning tools if they are available. Not only will it give you options and potentially make your job better and easier, when review time rolls around you have several new skills to add to your yearly accomplishments.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        I will ever be grateful to the dude who posted a YouTube video of how to find the recharging connection for the new-design Yankee Flipper bird feeder, because one charge lasts just long enough for me to completely forget which thing you move which way. Every time.

    3. Camellia*

      Sounds like you need what my company calls an IDP – individual development plan. Something you could come up with and get approval for, such as on-line courses to take or materials to read. Stuff that either pertains to your job (obvious examples are Excel or Word), or that might help prepare you for advancement or other positions.

      1. Camellia*

        And as Cosmic Avenger said, a lot of these are free. You could even get digital library books of ‘approved’ subject matter – check them out.

        1. Mistressfluffybutt*

          And a lot of companies will pay for some professional development if you ask. My company will reimburse you for approved udemy courses (it’s not hard to get approval you just have to show that it has some use for your job) or I worked for a place that would give you a lynda log in for any professional type course. It didn’t even have to directly apply to your job, just anything that you could spin to be useful. I’ve worked in a lot of call centers and a lot really approved of me using code academy or looking at Chinese flash cards or whatever my interest du jour was in my down time.

    4. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      Are there professional development opportunities in your field that you can do in the office? Online courses, etc.?

    5. anyone out there but me*

      Can you help someone else with a project? Is there a manager you can ask for extra assignments? I feel for you, having worked for a boss whose mantra was “There is always work that can be done….” when honestly, there were times when there just wasn’t.

      Can you just look busy and if someone asks, answer that you are “doing research”?? :P

    6. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Another is to come up with process improvements and propose doing them in your down time, like cross-referencing or reorganizing a filing system, or creating document templates for commonly used documents if you don’t have them. (You can create a Word template where it prompts you specifically for certain information, which would keep it more consistent instead of people creating their own each time.)

      1. animaniactoo*

        Yes, I created product templates for all our product and packaging and now one of my “downtime” things to do is update them, create new ones for new products that showed up but we never created an official template for them, etc.

        New project is creating a “using our templates” doc since my company has started sending them to other companies for some outsource stuff, and things we know about or how to do here get lost in translation there.

      2. OtterB*

        I was thinking about along these lines too. Is there something that would make your life or the team members’ lives easier when things are busy, that you could propose to develop now? A spreadsheet to keep track of something, a central repository for information that people sometimes have to scramble to find, something like that.

      3. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

        Yes! I created and optimized deploy scripts during downtime, and people loved it.

      4. The Cosmic Avenger*

        And if you haven’t done this before, mock one up (or actually complete one if you can do it in an hour or less), then show it to the person who uses it and point out how it saves them time and effort. Don’t just spend 8 or 20 hours getting everything right and assume that they’ll use it. If you just describe what you want to do, sometimes the “client” can’t picture what you have in mind, and from that point on will be more resistant. If it’s the kind of thing that will take you many hours even to mock up, then you can try pitching it, but you may really have to sell your idea, even if it makes their job many times easier.

      2. Buffy*

        Hey, you could take time to read Alison’s new book! (I did this week during a slow work time.) :)

      3. Specialk9*

        Haha I was thinking, uhhh…

        But seriously, it’s wise to limit that.

        Other things I recommend:
        -Take training in a tool that’s widely used in the industry.
        -Work on certifications.
        -Read industry blogs.
        -Do tutorials on how to do things in Excel (if you don’t already know how to do formulas and pivot tables and charts, those are good ones to know) and Word (auto-headings, formatting, page vs section breaks).
        -Listen to free audiobooks from the library on a discreet earbud, while paging through a work doc.

    8. animaniactoo*

      My go-tos now are research and watching lynda.com videos of applications I know to be better at them (there’s alot that’s been added to some of them since I first started and I haven’t actually learned all of it), or looking into new ones that could be useful.

      Also approved stuff: checking product reviews of my company’s products (particularly the ones I’ve worked on), and doing comparison research.

      2. Squeeble*

        Ha! I did this when I worked on a college campus and needed a break–grab a clipboard, take a walk around the quad.

      3. Dasein9*

        I once worked for a family business owned by very religious folks. I was given a Bible and may have opened it and bowed my head when in need of a na-ahem!-“quiet time.”

    10. KL*

      I’m going through this right now. I have a newer boss and he’s too busy to give me anything. ><

      I've been keeping up with the news, looking at training opportunities and taking courses. I've also been asking if anyone else needs help.

      1. Specialk9*

        One thing you could try, if it seems ok for your office… instead of just asking to help, is to ask someone (who’s not totally slammed) if they would take a half-hour and explain what they do, so you can learn the larger business. Then when you ask to help, you have context. Take notes, run it past them, and then keep it as a cheat-sheet on the org. I’ll bet your boss would appreciate it, if they’re that slammed.

        There are few people who understand a business sideways – most people know their own drilled-hole of knowledge. Being that person is powerful – you can connect people in an informal way (oh hey, did you know Barbara’s working on something similar?).

    11. Secretary*

      I usually have a long term project that I make up for slow periods. A few of mine include deleting old data that’s over 7 years old, creating a binder with training questions on how to do my job (in case I get hit by a bus or something), reorganizing files, desk cleanup/organization, etc.

    12. epi*

      I’m a grad student. So I may take the opportunity to work on my own stuff, take a break or even go home for the day, or find my boss/go through my email to look for more work.

      If we’ve been super busy lately, I’m likely to take back some of the time to catch up on my own projects, which is expected for me. If I know my boss is busy (or she knows that I’m not), I’ll of course go find her and see if she needs help.

    13. MuseumChick*

      Work on my “Hit-By-A-Bus” documents. Basically, writing down the processes for everything I do so if I get hit by a bus tomorrow someone else would be able to do my job.

    14. Susan Sto Helit*

      It really depends on the industry. Mine is creative, so I can spend down time coming up with/investigating new concepts (even if that’s a whole lot of scrolling through Pinterest), following relevant twitter feeds etc. I guess in other industries that sort of thing is harder to sell though.

      As long as your workplace isn’t super weird about internet usage, you could probably get away with reading industry-specific websites and news feeds, and maybe creating a twitter list of industry-relevant influencers etc. If they don’t like internet usage, see if they’re subscribed to any industry periodicals/magazines that you might be able to read.

      If all else fails, I’d be very tempted to smuggle in an ereader (or even ask my boss if that would be ok – assuming my boss wasn’t someone who might be tempted to think that if I didn’t have enough work to do they should cut my hours).

    15. selina kyle*

      I know a lot of people are going to say super productive things, but sometimes I just watch videos on YouTube/listen to podcasts and wait for something to show up. I rely a lo ton people emailing me back, so I have some down time at times. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with spending a few minutes here and there for yourself if you’re caught up on work.

    16. Jane of all Trades*

      I think once you’ve identified any sources of work, by reaching out to others, creating templates, or whatever makes sense, and there aren’t relevant trainings that you can go through (and from the thread it looks like you have already done that and are very proactive about it) I would see no problem in reading a book. Unless your job is one where, if things get busy you work ridiculously long hours, and therefore it makes sense to reclaim personal time when the opportunity arises, I probably would not leave the office, even to nap in the car. Especially because it sounds like a support ticket could come in at all times, so you want to be available should that happen!

      1. Penny Lane*

        I would be unimpressed by someone who can’t figure out something to do. Improve a process. Be a leader.

        1. Jane of all Trades*

          Eh, I think it depends on your role. If you are the it support person, and you have already offered help to anybody who might need it, have cleared out all your emails, have written process manuals, and so on, there may genuinely be some days where you don’t have work for 8 hrs.
          On the other hand, I have had a person on my team who pulled out a magazine and read through it when there was stuff to be done, without asking for work, and not wanting to get training on a new project – that’s a HUGE deal and in my eyes would need to get a person fired.
          TLDR – totally depends on your job and how much you’ve tried to find work.
          Our team admin assistant sometimes doesn’t have work to do, because we are overstaffed on admins as the intensity of our work fluctuates – better slightly overstaffed than understaffed. Sometimes she has done all there is to do, and identified any organizing that needed to be done etc, and genuinely has no work left to do. No problem at all that she then reads or plays solitaire – when things get busy she gives 110% and stays late when needed.

    17. Is It Spring Yet?*

      Step 1: ask people if they need a hand. Done be that vague or you WILL find yourself filing or other base office stuff.

      Step 2: take a moment to tidy your area. Physically and electronically.

      Step 3: learn something! Something simply justifiable to your boss of course. Theres nothing better than getting paid to learn and then being able to add it to your status report. “Learned More about X, which has beena weak point/cause of Y issue/frequent question for myself or others.

      I love step 3. Its how ive learned most of my Excel knowledge and let me explore some concepts in depth that more experienced people just dont have the time/interest/ability to teach.

      1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        Step 4. Document your job. You won’t be in your job forever and the next person will appreciate any notes you have on how to do your job. I know I appreciated the notes my predecessor provided!

        1. Elizabeth West*

          HELL YES.
          Plus it’s good practice in procedure writing. I was required to do this at Exjob and also to keep them updated as procedures changed . But I’ve done it for every job I’ve had since I worked in a materials testing lab, where the previous clerk left a whole folder of notes for her successor. I was so grateful. That was a very persnickety job because of environmental regulations regarding files, chain of custody for samples, etc.

          Not only does it help me learn how to do stuff, but if anyone should have to do my work while I’m on holiday or if I get hit by a bus, they have all the instructions right there. I also wrote one at OldExjob for temps covering the front desk while we were in our all-company meetings.

    18. Falling Diphthong*

      If a component of the job is “be available to help people when they appear needing help” then I think grabbing your book and reading is absolutely okay. Possibly it should be a serious work related to your field if people walking by would judge your having time to read romances poorly; possibly people would be absolutely thrilled to find you sitting at your desk, reading a romance novel, because it meant you were easy to find when they needed you. (I loathe the standard that people sitting and waiting for calls or visitors to come in should gaze into the middle distance in a thoughtful manner, rather than read a book, because only the former looks professional.)

      More broadly, after finishing the busy work (might as well be uber prepared for the regular parts of your job) some sort of education that goes at your own pace. I know there are online self-guided courses, and you could literally choose a topic, pull up Britannica, and research. (Also like Soupmonger’s suggestion to flag that you are available, though the acceptable frequency of flagging is very office dependent. But some people might think “Oh! I could give this to Friday!” and it would solve your boredom and earn you Friday-is-so-reliable points.)

    19. Environmental Compliance*

      Well, at one of my previous jobs, the process was that if any of us ran out of work, we’d ask the supervisor for more. Supervisor ran out of stuff for me to do, and none of my coworkers had anything that they could pass to me. Supervisor gave me permission to work on my grad school stuff and/or knit with the obvious caveat that when I got work finally to move onto that promptly.

      At current job I look up relevant industry news, regulation publications/news, and slowly reorganize my portion of the shared drive.

    20. essEss*

      If my coworkers don’t have overflow work to give to me, then I take online courses at coursera.org or udemy.com, especially for technical topics related to my job.

    21. DivineMissL*

      This happens to me a lot. I have a couple of long-term projects that I work on when I have time – informational brochures for the public, research on finding available grants, etc. That way I can keep busy on slow days.

    22. EgbertM*

      Sudoku, Tetris, personal programming projects, Solitaire, research interesting topics online, find podcasts to listen to while doing the above…

      I also spend some time helping others with their work if they need it or want it.

      *NOTE: I’m completely serious, and you need to understand that the disorganization of where I work leads to large quantities of time where I literally have nothing to work but they expect me to be in my seat. I’ve tried asking for more work, I’ve explained the problem, but there seems to be little will to do things differently. So, I play games.

      1. Batshua*

        I am trying to find things to do that don’t qualify as “playing games” or “surfing the web”, two things which I’m sure would get me in the hottest of water.

        So far, I’ve got use the subpar social networking site that’s work-specific, do terribly produced cringeworthy optional trainings, and read journal articles through work’s “knowledge base” (basically an online library).

        I’m reading a LOT of journal articles right now.

        1. Batshua*

          (They keep telling me not to surf the web, but they also won’t give me anything to DO during my downtime. This is terrible, because I have ADHD, and the boredom, man, the boredom. AAM is my sekrit thing that I pop into on my downtime or between tasks when I’m trying to spread out my work.)

    23. SFL*

      Can you find some side-projects that will help out the office/colleagues? I suddenly have a week off downtime right now because a client put a project on hold, so I’ve been making checklists and templates for people in the office to reference, cleaning up our resources drive (it’s a total mess, people just save stuff randomly in there without any organization), and spending more time teaching the interns.

    24. Becky*

      If you’re running into this, then there is a chance that others are too at different points. Is there a list of tasks and things that need to be done that always get pushed to the back burner? Maybe as a team you can brainstorm some items and use those as things to do when you have down time.

    25. nep*

      Are there any continuing education or development courses you could do while at work?

  3. AdAgencyChick*

    Inspired by this morning’s post #2:

    Does anyone here have good things to say about a company who outsourced their IT support? Every advertising holding company seems to have decided to do this in the last 3-5 years to save money, and at every agency I’ve been at, it’s been a hot mess for us actual working stiffs — it takes days to resolve a problem that used to take hours or even minutes, and the only way it seems to be possible to get an issue resolved in a timely fashion is to circumvent the system (by calling or showing up at the desk of the only in-house IT person who hasn’t been laid off instead of putting in a ticket like you’re supposed to).

    I guess it’s saving the higher-ups enough money that they don’t give a crap whether or not the system is actually working well for the boots-on-the-ground people. But I’m curious as to whether outsourcing works well for other companies and if so, what do you do that MAKES it work?

    (Also, tell your outsourced IT horror stories! A recent one of mine: I was moved to a new location in the office, but my phone wasn’t moved with me. I put in a ticket to have my phone connected at my new desk, which languished for about 10 days before I was finally contacted by email. They asked me what the best phone number and time was to reach me at. HELLO, MY PROBLEM IS THAT YOU HAVEN’T SET UP MY PHONE! And I really didn’t feel like giving them my personal cell. Sigh.)

    1. Temperance*

      Nope. I don’t know anyone who has good experience with outsourced IT support. I once was asked by an outsourced IT person whether “my little sister might have spilled a drink on my computer” because of a known issue with the laptop. My response was less than pleasant, and was along the lines of “why would a grown The same person then said that they were “installing a driver” and then installed a computer program that disabled the mouse while I was typing. It didn’t fix the known issue with my keyboard, though.

        1. Temperance*

          LOL I apparently deleted an entire sentence. “Why would a grown woman calling from her place of work have a little sister around to spill drinks?”

          1. GlitsyGus*

            Oh man, now I kinda want someone to ask me that. I really want to say, “I’m pretty sure my 40-year-old little sister didn’t drive 60 miles just to walk into my office this morning and spill her drink on my keyboard.”

            I know part of being an IT person is ruling out the obvious but come on.

          2. Anonymous Ampersand*

            Wow I presumed the sister thing was relevant to something. They just made up a story?! Why sister not brother/cat/dog?!

    2. Alternative Person*

      An old company of mine had out-sourced the system to someone on the other side of the world. It was a pain in the butt to deal with recurring issues that the IT guy couldn’t replicate/see in the system.

    3. Really?*

      At my old company it was so bad people didn’t bother calling IT they’d figure out any propable workaround they could before they tried. Also the company estimated the change might not save money until 5 years or so down the line, and even then it might not do so. CEO said this in an upbeat way – meanwhile people had lost their jobs/become contractors with less job security/pay while the company’s fundamental day to day business was dependent on IT – I mean this included our printers and photocopiers not just stuff that could be dealt with remotely. I’m sure it might have saved some sort of money in one column but it definitely decreased productivity and morale.

    4. Yams*

      Oh, I used to work at a massive worldwide company that outsourced their IT to different places. But they made sure to always have support. For common issues (printers, email issues, etc) you’d get an answer within like half an hour but for the more complex ones (propietary software) you’d have to wait for a specialist to be avaible which could take a couple days. Otherwise it worked pretty well, I don’t really have complaints.
      My current employer has in house IT… I have no idea where they are and I still can’t get them to fix my email after a year.

    5. Qmatilda*

      Outsourced IT at my office and let me tell you my most recent horror story. I have a client that does skype conference calls. My system was not letting me connect and the local guy’s answer was, “submit a ticket” so i do and the initial answer was , “you cannot externally skype” my response (via ticket update) was – this is a client requirement, how can this be fixed? 6 months later and several IT chats later including screen share, etc. i get, “you cannot skype externally.” I give up.

        1. Darury*

          It depends on how Skype is setup. I’ve worked in places where it was strictly in-house and others where it was federated with the general public. What I haven’t seen is where you can limit Skype to companies X, Y, and Q but not allow the whole world to use it. It’s probably possible, but while I’m an IT guy, I’m not any sort of Skype specialist.

    6. Really?*

      The first people they put you through to on the call don’t actually know what they’re doing and are just following a script and can be incredibly patronizing. I actually knew what an issue was with my computer, but couldn’t fix it myself (I had it happen multiple times before.) I had to plea with this woman not to make the changes and to leave it alone, she repeatedly wouldn’t believe me and acted like I was stupid – although I knew the suggestions she made would completely corrrupt my system and make everything worse (because this had been done multiple times before.) Finally I convinced her to stop trying to ‘help me’ and to leave it. Moments later I’m called by a supervisor, who understands what I’m talking about and fixes it in about two minutes. But if I hadn’t known what I was talking about the first person would have totally screwed everything up because supposedly they’re meant to know what they’re doing.

    7. Not Maeby But Surely*

      My employer outsources its IT work to another company local to the same state we’re headquartered in. I’d say it works pretty well for us. We have decent response times and have built up a good rapport with the IT crew over the 10+ years we’ve worked with them. My only complaint is they seem to relegate us all to the status of “idiots who don’t know anything about computers” when in reality, only 95% of us are “idiots” like that. :)

    8. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Nope, my experience at OldJob was horrible. Tickets basically went into a black hole and you were on your own to fix it. We technically still had an onsite team, but they could only receive requests through the ticketing system.

    9. Susan Sto Helit*

      Our current IT security system is set up so that almost every time someone sends me a file with a substantial attachment (which is…all the time) the security software blocks it and I then have to raise a ticket and get someone to release it. Which could take an hour or more sometimes. And when something is going back and forth a lot, this can happen several times a day.

      Unsurprisingly, this means that when something is on an urgent deadline I usually have to give up and get company stuff sent to my personal email address instead because /we do not have time to deal with this/. It’s maddening.

      (Things our company software blocks include: any mention of blue tits, great tits, shags and multiple other birds, and also anything involving the UK town of Scunthorpe).

      1. Is It Spring Yet?*

        How about the Blue Footed Boobie?

        Please say you work with environmental stuff and titsare frequently mentioned

      3. Nashira*

        Your company is not setting y’all up for success. If you have a need to share large files and there’s a limitation on email, then they should provide you with a secure file sharing method. I’m judging them.

      4. GlitsyGus*

        Your system would probably explode if you ever sent an email regarding the copulation and scat contents of the tomtits and banded coots within the town of Intercourse Pennsylvania and whether Randy Johnson killing a dove with a fastball contributed to any changes.

    10. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      Nope, outsourced IT was a nightmare for my company.
      This was several years ago and our (then) parent company outsourced our IT support, leaving our two on-site IT support (one due to retire, one just generally useless) to handle things that just can’t be dealt with off-site (printer jams, loose cabling, that sort of thing).
      They were rubbish! We went from having our IT issues resolved (even by Mr Generally Useless) within a few hours, to system-wide down time for DAYS. Staff were left unable to login to systems that were the entire basis for their working day – we even got locked out of Microsoft Office at one point! The whole company was unable to send emails or use spreadsheets for over half a day – but all our paperwork was filed or shredded, so that’s something! This was also while our parent company bled us dry with other cost cutting measures. By the time we were sold we were a shell of our former glory (but paperless!).
      New parent company has invested HUGELY in most departments, primarily IT, bringing it all back in house. Our IT support is now far better, and expanded (Mr Generally Useless was let go, and replaced by two Very Capable guys who are a pleasure to work with), and we’re back to having almost all issues resolved within hours, except where it’s an external issue (our IT guys are great, but even they can’t do anything about a county-wide telecoms outage!)

    11. Didi*

      At my current and past company (for 13 years total) outsourced IT support from India has been excellent – issues have been resolved quickly and competently.

      Just as how there are competent and incompetent employees, there are competent and incompetent IT service providers.

      1. Samiratou*

        Indeed. I suspect our outourced IT company outsources in turn, and the first company they contracted with was really bad. After leadserhip stepped in, they got uniformally better in a way that makes me think they changed companies.

      2. Menacia*

        I happen to do internal IT support for a company, but have had to use the outsourced support of other companies most without much luck. I think it’s extremely difficult for an outsourced company, that has no intimate knowledge of the infrastructure, devices, applications, etc. to provide competent support. If they can remote into the computer, they have a leg up, but still would not know if there are gateways, firewalls, policies, etc., causing issues unless they were constantly being made aware of the existing environment and apprised of any changes. I even have a difficult time when encountering an issue which turns out to be caused by a change to the environment because the Help Desk was not made aware, and the infrastructure team sits not 10 feet away. The only thing we outsource is development and support of our ERP and other specific applications for which we could not hire anyone to support in-house. That is the *smart* way of doing support, knowing what capabilities can and should be outsourced and which ones cannot.

    12. Cedrus Libani*

      I’ve seen “in-house” outsourcing be OK – that is, the people who do some specialized function (maintain the servers, etc) work for the company, but they live in India. The time delay is a minor nuisance, because they’re asleep when you’re working, and vice versa. But at least here, there are local people empowered to step in if things really go to heck, and the 99% of routine tickets can wait half a day.

      On the other side, I worked for a startup that had outsourced their IT to a contractor. This contractor sent an IT tech to the office once every two weeks, for half a day. All maintenance issues were to be saved for that time. The more obnoxious part was, the IT contractor locked down our computers so tightly, we couldn’t do our jobs unless the tech was there. We brought in our own computers, but were quickly “caught” connecting them to the network, which they locked down even further in response. So…after trying, and failing, to hack into my own work computer so I could do my bleeping job…I intentionally messed with it in a way that would require the IT tech to log on as the master account to fix, then shoulder-surfed the password. The software team could suddenly do its job again.

      1. Serin*

        My company has this, and I have 99% good feelings about it (the 1% being that I’m a little hard of hearing and accents are difficult for me, so if for some reason the chat function isn’t available, it’s a bit of a trial for both me and the help desk agent).

    13. Specialk9*

      We’ve had some rough spots, but by now generally our outsourced IT support is pretty good.

    14. Samiratou*

      Yes, though ours is getting better. When they first outsourced it it was really bad. We called them the No-Help desk because they couldn’t even reach the basic level of competence of Googling the problem first (as if any of us would have contacted them if we could find the solution on the web!). Tickets would either get ignored or closed and even if you called they’d be “escalated” then ignored.

      Leadership got so many complaints they had to actually do something about it, though, so things are better now.

    15. Juli G.*

      Eh, I haven’t seen much of a difference (although maybe that speaks more of our old internal IT group).

    16. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Every time a company has outsourced the help desk, it’s sucked. I have a hard time with accents, and the Asian and surrounding area languages are really hard for me. The interesting part is when it backfires, because it will eventually. I didn’t work there, my friend did and I heard about it from her, so for your enjoyment, a fairly extreme version of what can go wrong:

      The company outsourced to wherever. A disproportionate amount of the profits came from a service that was dependent on a very specific, and somewhat outdated, software. There were no easy replacements. Pre outsourcing, they had a team of 3-5 people who knew the system inside and out, could fix it, improve it, etc. Post outsourcing, they laid off that team. Cue problems with the system, since it wasn’t being maintained properly, which had a direct impact on profits. About a year later, the outsourced IT tried to update something around the system (like Windows updates, but more obscure). This incredibly important system flat out died. Could NOT work with the updates. IT panicked, tried to fix it, etc. Eventually they undid the update, but they’d messed with the system enough that it still wouldn’t work. We’re talking at least 50% of the revenue just ground to a halt overnight, and there was a domino effect financially. Company is now out of business. My friend landed on her feet somewhere else and is doing just fine.

    17. SarahKay*

      Nope, our outsourced IT is a disaster.

      Horror story: we had a new attendance tracking system installed, and I’m the local expert, so would usually submit the tickets if there was a problem. For about three weeks every time I submitted a ticket it would be assigned to…. me! Emails telling them to stop assigning my tickets to me got me nowhere; in the end I had to submit a new ticket to get my name removed from the list of people who could resolve tickets.

      This was all made more infuriating by the fact that I would escalate the tickets and would get a supremely unhelpful email from the escalation team telling me how my ticket was important to them and was being worked, and finishing with “Have a great day!” That last exclamation mark at the end of their meaningless and unhelpful email would get my blood pressure rising every time.

    18. Bea W*

      No. Not ever. My worst experience was working remotely and not being able to access the network after the company moved all us folks from Aquired Teapots from our former company’s image to the Global Teapots company image that was heavily locked down. In order to access vpn I needed to install a program that was not included in the new image.

      I called GT’s outsourced tech support to have this fixed. The support tech was actually on top of her stuff, but she could not fix the issue. No one had given the support staff the admin account password for the new image. She tried every password she had on file, and nothing! She had to open a ticket for desk side support at the office location. I had to physically be at the office to have this fixed. So much for working remotely! If I had been on a business trip I would have been even more livid than I already was.

    19. Coalea*

      This is so timely, as I’m in the midst of yet another IT debacle! I submitted a ticket as required, which was almost immediately closed, with the “resolution” being a request from the tech to call him to discuss. Well, 2 weeks of phone tag later, I’ve had enough and emailed his boss to ask that she either make him actually schedule a call with me, or assign the issue to someone else who will actually help me. This isn’t the first time something like this has happened – our IT department is judged on how many tickets they close and how quickly they close them, so they are prone to closing them even when issues haven’t really been resolved. So frustrating!!!

    20. Lora*

      They can do simple things like map a printer that’s not popping up on your list, fix MS Office things, fix your Skype. Anything else…well, I’ve had a ticket in to fix the license mapping on specialty software that I require to do my job since December. It’s basically never going to get done, so I do stuff on my home desktop or kludge or have a contractor who has the software correctly installed by *his* employer on their laptop. This has been my experience at every job I’ve ever had except one, which was a startup that didn’t last. Simple standard stuff will be okay-ish, anything more complicated forget it.

    21. Turquoisecow*

      Nope. My company does this (they’re woefully behind on technology, and this is just one example) and it takes forever to get anything accomplished. Most of it is remote, and the one guy we have on site (once or twice a week) is the laziest guy who will leave things half unfinished. I guess someone figured it saved money, but it’s such a hassle.

    22. IT Support Marketer*

      Oof. As the marketing manager for an outsourced IT company, this thread hurts a little bit. There are some good IT companies out there, I promise! But yeah, that does sound like an incredibly frustrating experience.

      It’s very much a get what you pay for industry. That doesn’t mean there are no good, cheap IT companies but they’re typically small and can’t handle a ton of customers (or large customers). There are, of course, bad employees at more expensive shops, too.

      Every IT company should have service level agreements (SLAs) documenting how quickly they will respond to an issue (if they don’t, don’t work with them) based on severity. If can’t consistently meet SLAs, that’s a problem.

      If you’re looking for an IT company, a good question to ask is how they measure their techs. You’ll probably have a better experience with companies that measure based on customer satisfaction and meeting SLAs then you will with a company who measures based on how many tickets are closed in a day.

      The keys to making it work well are:
      -Overcommunication: Let your IT company know when something changes or is going to change if it’s even tangentially related to computers (this is more for whoever your main point of contact is at your organization). At the individual level, give as many details as possible (the issue, what you were doing when it happened, information about your computer, what you’ve already tried to do fix it) when you first put in a ticket, including the best way to reach you and when. This goes both ways. Your IT company should be communicating with you about what they’re doing, and when they will work on your ticket.

      -Proactively managing the network to reduce break/fix tickets: This is another one that is typically going to fall on the decision makers. An example of this is upgrading your firewall if you are hiring a bunch of new people. Your firewall can affect your internet speed, and if there is more traffic than it can handle, it’s going to slow things down. Upgrading before that happens will prevent issues from coming up.

      -Setting expectations: This is more on the IT company side. We don’t work on tickets on a first come, first serve basis. A server down at one company is going to take priority over a single user having issues on the desktop version of Outlook (but can still use the web version). But if that Outlook user doesn’t know that, it’s not going to be a great experience for them, even if we’re meeting our SLA. IT companies and customers need to work together to manage those expectations for everyone. But if the IT company isn’t meeting those expectations, that’s an issue–which is why SLAs are important.

      I hope this helps some and that you have better experiences with your IT company! Sorry this is a basically a novel!

      1. IT Support Marketer*

        Oh I forgot to mention! If you have an internal IT person and an outsourced IT company, setting expectations about who handles what is a huge key to success, too. No clear delineation around that is how a lot of tickets fall through the cracks.

    23. Minocho*

      I am IT, and I’ve been in departments that were gutted while the company switched to outsourcing, and been part of the team rebuilding from switching from outsourced to in house it. One company in particular was ramping up from being outsourced to in house, I lost my job three years later due to an outsourcing switch, and I received word from former coworkers a few years later that it was going back to in house IT. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, really.

      In house support feels more like part of the team, and if well managed, is more likely to understand business needs and relative priority of issues. They have a direct stake not only in doing their job, but in helping the company succeed. But managing, hiring and maintaining a team of IT professionals in a company where IT doesn’t drive revenue is usually seen as overhead, and it is expensive.

      Outsourcing is almost always less expensive on a budget sheet, even when the sources are in the same country, because every company is focusing on a core competency. Buuuuut…they don’t understand your business, they have much less of a stake in your success, and communication across competencies can become very painful very quickly. Add increased turnaround times due to remote support, language or time zone issues, and more remote communications and relationships, and it only gets worse from there.

    24. Dear liza dear liza*

      Our Learning Management System help line was superb…and then it was outsourced. First, any time I called, it took 10-15 minutes for the rep to take down all my info before I was allowed to ask my question. Half the time, they couldn’t answer it, straight up. So glad I wasted that 10-15 minutes upfront ! One time, as an instructor, I uploaded a file bit for some reason my students couldn’t see it. I called, gave all my data, asked my question, was put on hold, got transferred, explained everything again, was put on hold.. TWO hours later, the rep said the problem was on the instructors end and I should talk to him. “I’M THE INSTRUCTOR!” I yelled, and hung up.

    25. Iben*

      I’ve seen it work once, with a large finance company I worked at that outsourced daily support and maintenance but kept development in-house. What they did was create a joint venture with IBM, re-hire their own employees through the joint venture and outsource the it support to this company. Worked fine, but not sure what the benefit was as it employed the same people and paid them the same.

    26. a*

      Since I work for a state, some of our IT is outsourced and some is performed by a state agency. If you call the state agency, they will invariably tell you that since you work for Department X, you need to call Department X’s IT, but they do not know what that number is. Plus, they have camouflaged who handles different things such as the VOIP phones, the networks, hardware issues, software issues, updates, equipment replacement. In fact,the only thing you can reliably get the in-house IT to do is unlock your account if you’ve tried to sign in with the wrong password too many times. Our outsourced IT deals with only one aspect of my job, and they are FANTASTIC…as long as you are the slightest bit computer literate and can tell them what your specific problem is. They handle equipment problems, and try to deal with network issues (that aren’t even their problem). They’re very responsive, and frequently check in with the contacts at the different locations to make sure we’re all happy. (It’s kind of a strange set-up, though. We need them for one program that they provide, but they also supplied computers, cameras, printers, and Photoshop as part of the package. Thus, they can provide a good portion of our troubleshooting. And it’s rare when they say “It’s your network/software/issue and we can’t help.”)

  4. Fallen and Can't Get Up!*

    My grandmother recently fell and hurt herself to the point that she will not be able to live by herself in her home for the foreseeable future. At least six months, maybe to a year, and maybe not ever again. My family is pondering what to do with her for the next few months, until we figure out if this will be a permanent thing for my grandma or not, and I’m wondering about offering myself as an option while I go through a career shift.

    I am in my late 20’s and have been doing office secretary/administrative work for the past five years (retail between my college and full-time work). I’ve recently been thinking that I’d like to switch to a different career path, potentially marketing or editing/copywriting. My potential career paths both want experience that I don’t have that is very difficult to get with working a full-time job already. But if I was taking care of my grandmother (who doesn’t need around the clock care, just more someone to cook and clean for her, drive her to doctor’s appointments, and be able to check on her on a daily basis), that would leave me time to take a class or do an internship/part-time job. And since I’d be taking care of my grandma, I know my family would support me financially, rather than if I just quit my job and started down a new career path with only my savings to get me by.

    Family-wise, it also makes the most sense as my parents and aunts and uncles either have full-time jobs with a long career history that doesn’t allow the flexibility to not work or are taking care of little kids. I’m the eldest grandchild, the only one not in school, and early in my career path, especially with wanting to switch, that I don’t think taking a six-month to one-year break with volunteer/intern/part-time/classes to keep me going while also caring for my grandmother would be weird on my resume.

    Before I even offer this thought to my family, I wanted to get your opinions from the job perspective, not the family-welfare perspective. Would this move make sense? Would ‘caring for an elderly family member’ be a good reason for leaving my job and allowing me to try a new path?

    1. Rookie Manager*

      If I saw that on an application alongside classes/volunteering/internship I certainly wouln’t look at it unfavourably.

    2. Temperance*

      I wouldn’t do this. Granted, my take is going to be way more negative than you’re looking for, but here’s the truth: if you step up to act as a caregiver, you will be taking a step back in your career. It might be for years, and you might never, ever be able to get back up.

      You aren’t going to be able to be a caregiver while throwing yourself fully into a new career, especially editing or marketing. Editing is very, very hard to break into, and marketing is demanding.

      My MIL decided to take care of her parents a few years ago, and actively chose not to move closer to her children (where there are more jobs, and better paying jobs). It’s cost her so much, both personally and in her career, because once she took that on, it became her job to provide care, unpaid. I could rant on much more, but don’t do it. It’s not a good way to start a career.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Agree times ten. Do not give up your income stream. This works into way more than you could ever dream of. A doctor’s appointment begets TEN more appointments, plus tests, plus scripts, medical items. Cleaning house works into waiting for the appliance repair person to come, or the furnace person or the plumber, there is always someone coming. “Just” cooking works into running to the store, hauling the food into the house and putting the food away. Notice you still have not cooked it yet. Checking in on her means finding out that she is messing up her meds some how, or my fav, figuring out she is out of a med at 8 pm, on a dark and snowy night. (That one worked into the pharmacist noticing I was alone, asked me if I was packing…. fun times.)
        Wait, we have not covered mowing the lawn, shoveling the snow, winding he clock and emptying the pencil sharpener. (I can’t make this stuff up I am not that creative.) Meanwhile everyone else goes back to life, they get their degrees and their promotions and so on. And you’re stuck.
        At most, tell them you will work with someone else and share the responsibility. Preferably you would be working with several people.
        Reality is that grandmom needs help now, not in three months or however long it takes to make a decision.

    3. gbca*

      I think it depends a bit on what exactly you are doing with your time. Going back to school, interning, and working part-time are tangible things you can put on your resume. Other activities may not be resume-worthy, and thus would make a gap tougher to explain.

      How is your network and references? How employable do you think you are as an admin if this career shift doesn’t work out? I would factor that in as well.

    4. miyeritari*

      I wouldn’t look at your caretaking unfavorably, but I’m a pretty skeptical at one specific part of your plan.

      Let’s say you do take care of your grandmother, and you do get this internship/part-time job, and then you DO have the skills to start your new career path…

      ….. what happens to your grandmother when you start your full time job? You’re starting out at the bottom, so it’s not likely you’ll have the funds to hire a care-person to do what you do, and the sort of jobs you’re talking about can have long and/or unreliable hours. Will you and your family be eligible for some other kind of care you’re not eligible now? Will there be resentment towards you from your family (inc. your grandma) when you say ‘I’m going to stop being a caretaker now”?

      I’m worried you’ll be trapped in caretaking for the forseeable future.

      1. Shelly574*

        Yeah, I don’t see a way out of this either. Your Grandmother may live for a long time yet and you’re putting yourself in the position of being her caretaker. That’s find if you WANT that responsibility and are willing to sacrifice your own career to do it, but please know that you would be making a sacrifice.

        Your in your late 20s and this is when you need to start saving for retirement and thinking about your financial future. You say your family can help you financially now, but can they help you in ten years? Or fifteen? You’re losing out on really critical professional development experience that you might not be able to recover from.

        1. Temperance*

          Yep. People in ill health often live for years longer than you would expect, and once you are identified as the caregiver, you’re it.

      2. Temperance*

        This is a very eloquent, and very well-thought-out comment. I tried to express something similar and failed. Basically, OP, once you are identified as the family caregiver, you’re going to be stuck.

        Not to mention if you want to have a family of your own or if you might meet someone and want to build a life with him or her.

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        Ideally, it’s something like OP gives everyone a 6 month or 1 year deadline that they can use for planning purposes. Midway through this period is when Grandma’s health prognosis is clearer and the family know if they need to look at hiring live-in help, or drop-in help, or a nursing home, or she can be independent again, or what. For a family member looking for a chance to gather themselves and launch off in a new direction, this recovery and evaluation period can be a good match for everyone. But it’s important that it not be indefinite, like extending as long as needed (can be literal decades) or all parts will suddenly neatly tie themselves off the moment something turns up (so not while OP applies to jobs that would start in a week and make her unable to do this one).

        I have no idea how hard it is to move from admin to marketing or editing intern, and that side of the plan gives me more pause. I would guess that this works better for far-flung and obscure internships (sheepherding), rather than fields that lots of people want to break into (publishing).

        1. Temperance*

          The reason I think I’m so opposed to this idea is that I’ve seen it backfire on the “temporary” caregiver so many times that I can’t ever support it. You can set out with an agreement to do it for a limited time, and then once you’re in place, it’s like the conversation about someone else taking over never happened, and you’re in a tough spot because you’re already there and it’s not like you’re going to leave Grandma alone while someone else takes a turn.

          Plus, if you want a family of your own, or to have a successful relationship, being a caregiver will impede that.

          1. Washi*

            This is unfortunately often very true. I work with the elderly, and “how do we take care of grandma” can end up being incredibly divisive, even in a close family. And also harder on the caregiver than most people realize. Your grandmother could have many years left, or on the other hand, she could fall again and break a hip or develop dementia, and require much more care than you realized.

            If you want to do this, I would recommend
            1) Taking a hard look at your family and how they negotiate responsibilities. Who do you think will step up? Who will criticize but never help? Who will offer help but never come through?
            2) Reading some books about caregiving. It’s a big commitment, even if it’s only for a limited period.
            3) If it seems like your family is just dithering about what to do and your deadline is approaching, hire a geriatric care manager who can talk through the options and help your family make a plan. Paying for someone can be the kick in the butt to actually do the thing.

            Good luck!

          2. Lora*

            THIS. And this is a very nicey-nice way of putting it.

            I have not ever seen anyone take over caretaking duties that didn’t end with Grandma either going to the real nursing home or dying. If you take this on, assume it will be until Grandma dies or goes to the nursing home with double pneumonia and is unlikely to ever come home, sort of thing.

            And even a very very sickly Grandma can hang on for YEARS longer than anyone believes. Elderly relatives in my family who were active and ate vegetables went downhill fast and died within months of entering a nursing home while people who were completely bedridden and at death’s door managed to hang on for several years.

            Also, FYI? Caretaking SUCKS. It’s doing the Lord’s work for sure, but OMG scrubbing an adult human’s poop and other bodily fluids out of carpets, helping them with the bathroom, cleaning up the days-old dirty diapers they mysteriously stashed in inexplicable places, cooking whatever food their fussy tastes will tolerate *today* and watching them eat one bite and decide they aren’t hungry, etc. gets miserable fast. If they don’t go out (read: you don’t MAKE them turn off the teevee and go out to a social club) and do social things, they will be thirsty for any interaction and you’ll have to listen for hours about what was on daytime teevee and things that happened 50 years ago and their bowel movements and just…everything. If you haven’t seen the SNL skit for Alexa Silver, it’s pretty much that. While you’re cleaning up the dirty diaper that has been under their bed, stinking, for a whole week, and then they scream about how it must be a dead mouse in the wall making the smell because you’re such a lousy housekeeper. You’ll cook them meals they don’t eat, and when you go to the store for an hour they will call 911 and get rushed to the emergency room for hypoglycemia and dehydration….because they didn’t want to eat the sandwich and “forgot” to drink the water bottle you put right in front of them, and then you have to explain to the nice social worker that no Grandma is NOT being neglected what the heck?!? Then you get home and Grandma acts like nothing happened and could you please help her find (thing she hasn’t owned since 1972).

            Seriously do not underestimate how bad elder care sucks out loud.

            1. Workerbee*

              It is an unfortunate part of human life. I have been meaning to write myself a note that says, “If I ever get to THIS stage, LET someone get me into assisted care” –or whatever is needed for whatever ‘THIS stage” is –because damn. Family caregivers get all the burden without the benefit of training or immediate emotional distance. Add in guilt, anger, and changed feelings toward your loved one. I don’t know if one can still feel romantic love, for example, toward one’s spouse when you are doing nearly or entirely 24/7 caregiving. Some kind of love, sure, but there comes a difference.

              And it’s just like others have said, once you’re seen as the person taking care of things, offers to help out get mightily scarce. Or people applaud themselves for calling up one nursing home one time to see if there’s a spot for dear old dad.

              Caregivers, you all really are heroes–and I wish that being a hero didn’t mean that you’re expected to be strong and work alone.

            2. Temperance*

              This comment nails it, 100%. My MIL has been the caregiver for her parents for many years at this point, and I honestly think it’s going to kill her sooner or later. Her parents refuse to ask their son (her brother) for help, they refused non-family care up until very, very recently, and it’s a thankless job that has kneecapped her earning capacity and probably set her up to die sooner, too.

              There’s a reason that people get paid to do this work, and it’s because it succcccccccks.

            3. puzzld*

              Have you been peeking into my window? Seriously. I’ve been taking care of Mom for the last 10 years. 8 years ago she wasn’t going to make it till the weekend. But here we are. Fortunately mom has sufficient money to pay care givers for 50 or so hours a week so I can go to work and rest, grocery shop, etc. I have the night shift and most of the time it’s not bad, when she gets a good nights sleep, I can rest too. When she doesn’t, we’re all miserable.
              In the last 8 years, I’ve managed one 1 week vacation (which went to hell for other reasons) and a few weekends a year. My life is not my own. So yeah. Think 3 times before you step up to be a care giver.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          A red flag when up in my mind when I read the first line of 6 months to a year. OP, if it takes them 6 months to figure out what to do then they are NOT working on it. They are ignoring the situation. It should be a matter of a few weeks, maybe LESS.
          You go out look at a few places and talk to people and make a decision. That’s it. This is not on the level of curing cancer or finding world peace. And there are not 10k options to chose from. The first thing is to look at how grandma will pay for it. This narrows down the options very quickly once they know what resources are available. The long part is emptying the house, which does not require you to be there daily.

    5. Mr. Rogers*

      I think it would be fine if you’re filling your time with things that will make you more employable in those fields (like an internship), which assumes your grandmother is near enough to places with those opportunities. But past a year is probably going to get rough, so be sure your family knows your offer is limited in scope—and that you have a backup if you need to hop on a stellar full time opportunity. I would start applying to entry level spots in those industries ASAP just in case, because it might take a while to actually land something.

    6. Val*

      I don’t have any terribly useful advice, but I’m in a similar position with regards to my mom, who’s in the very early stages of Alzheimers. She doesn’t need constant care so much as someone to remind her what day it is, and help her keep a consistent routine. I’m living in a very expensive part of the country, working a job I love that doesn’t pay enough to be sustainable long-term, so I need to make some kind of move anyway. It’s such a hard thing to figure out, without really being able to see the long-term results :/ I’m glad someone else is asking similar questions.

    7. Specialk9*

      I think you’re seeing yourself up for long term financial hardship. Especially if you’re female, dealing with male family members. Families have a tendency to take for granted a family member, especially a female in a caregiving role. They might pay now, but in the future they may have financial issues and pull the rug out from under you (and you’re family so just deal, guilt trip) in a way they wouldn’t with a professional (bc then grandma might move in with them). It’s really gambling with your future.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        It’s made my life a lot harder. And OP, do NOT expect your family to be eternally grateful. It’s more like, “Oh, you helped with mom? What were you working on?”

        1. Temperance*

          Yep. If they aren’t contributing, and by that I mean taking a fair share, they have no freaking idea what it entails.

    8. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I think if your family will support you and you can pursue classes, part-time work or internships in your chosen field, there is no reason to think that this will significantly set you back, careerwise. I also think that from a completely non-career perspective, you will never regret spending this time caring for your grandma and getting to know her better. I do think that it would be good to have a plan in place in case your grandma needs more continuous care than the year or so you plan to help out, but I’m sure you and your family are already thinking about that.

    9. I'm A Little Teapot*

      My take on it: go ahead, as long as you’re very clear with everyone in the family (in writing clear) that there is a end date to your availability, so you can devote x amount of time to this then alternative arrangements will have to be found. The thing is, if you can devote 6-12 months while doing classes, etc, at that point doctors will have a better idea of long term outlook for your grandmother. With that information, your family can make appropriate plans. Maybe assisted living will be needed. Maybe a personal aide will come in daily. Maybe she’s fully independent again. You could give everyone some time to get to that point.

      However, this only will work if your family will respect that timeframe, actually plan to fill the gap when you get a job, not give you crap, etc. If you don’t think they’ll do that, then no. You will want to get EVERYTHING in writing, including financial support from your family. A written agreement that you will be paid $x a month.

      1. sunshyne84*

        Yea I think having a good clear plan set with the rest of the family would be the best way to go. I think it’ll be fine and you both will get the support you need.

    10. Llellayena*

      I see no career related issues with this arrangement (my family had a tag team set-up when my grandma fell), but I have some advice on how to present it to the family. Put all of the following items in writing, basically a “family care contract.” Set a time limit, 6 months or a year or whatever you are willing to devote. Indicate IMMEDIATELY that other arrangements need to be made after that date, even if that is an assisted living facility (and continue to bring the subject up regularly). Set a compensation level and/or budget. You are performing a job (in addition to helping out family) and need to be compensated for your time, especially since you will not have another source of income. You can certainly set your rate lower than other home care services, but you need money for food and gas at a minimum. Set conditions that you will have days off where other family takes over so you can go out or away, caretaking is stressful, you don’t want to burn out! If you are planning to take classes (or attend networking sessions!) arrange that someone will take over while you are out. If you treat this like the job it is, add it to your resume, there’s a lot of skill-building you get from this. Good luck!

    11. Anono-me*

      I have done this. It was hard, but rewarding especially emotionally.
      My new great job started in 2 1/2 months so an older relative, Pat, scheduled a pretty major surgery and I left my low pay job a little early to help out.
      I had some advantages that I don’t think you have.
      Pat only had two other adult realatives, so it was pretty easy to get all 4 of us on the same page as to what I was doing and not doing.
      I had medical insurance.
      I had savings and a place where I could move to if things didn’t work.
      Pat was fully expected to make a 100% recovery.
      I had worked as a CNA previously.
      I had a FIRM end date.
      Here is what I suggest if you decide to do this.
      Once everything is figured out the the last detail, put everything in writing, make everyone sign it , and give everyone a copy.
      Figure out what you need to do inorder to do the career switch. Do some informational interviews and check out the college classes and schedules. Plan out exactly what you need to do for the next six months to a year. Not just you need to take three classes next semester, but you will be on campus from 11:00 to 2:30 MWF and from 8:30 to noon TR. You will not be available during those times, Not negotiatable.
      You need to have personal time and space. Spell those out. One weekend a month someone else stays with Gma, so you can cram for finals, go out on the town or go out of town, etc.. Even if it was Uncle Joe’s childhood bedroom, it is yours for the duration and everyone else must stay out. You also have x hours each day of personal time.
      Have a notebook or a password protected site that is available to all the involved adults. Have Gma’s calendar on it, summaries of any medical appointments, and other important data.
      Have someone else handle your Gma’s money and bills.
      See what your state and Medicare offer in the way of paying family members to be PCAs. Usually the PCA training class is only about 2 weeks.
      Have medical insurance.
      Have an end date and at least a short term plan B for if Gma still needs help after that. For example, “I am doing this until June 1st, then I am going to Springfield for an internship. Dana Smith from Teapot’s PCAs is scheduled to come out and help Gma For the first two weeks of June. We can decide then if we want to continue on with Dana or go in a new direction.”
      Best wishes to you and a good recovery to your grandmother

      1. Washi*

        A+ advice. This also reminded me: if you haven’t already, make sure your grandma’s will and advanced directives are in order, as well as designating a healthcare and financial power of attorney. These are not easy conversations to have, but it is MUCH harder to do it later.

    12. only acting normal*

      Proceed with caution. My grandmother had a fall which prompted her decline into Alzheimers: my mother cared for her for 20 years until mum was just under retirement age, effectively scuppering any chance she had of going back to work after raising us.

      Caring is work, hard work, especially emotionally when it’s family. Not everyone is cut out for it (really my mother wasn’t, but there was no-one else). Plus it can be very hard to also hold a job, or study, let alone break into a new field.

      By all means put yourself on the family rota of contributing to your grandma’s care (e.g. offer to do 1 or 2 days a week, or one week in 4, depending on how things are going to be arranged) but be wary of becoming the majority or entirety of the solution. Even with the best intentions your family might be all too relieved to consider ‘you=carer’ as the new status quo.

    13. Thlayli*

      A one-year break won’t set you back too much – lots of women take a year or more maternity leave / career break when they have kids. Combined with the fact that you are switching careers I think it’s a great idea. As you say it’s a great “excuse” for your resume for taking time away from your career and the timing is very serendipitous for you.

      Make sure you make clear with your family that this is not a permanent solution though!

    14. Wibbets*

      Fallen, quitting your job to be a caregiver would be a terrible career move. It would not get you any closer to a career in the industries you identified. If anything, it would just set you back. It would also probably be a bad life move for you in general. Here’s why:

      Reading this, I sort of get the sense that you think being an adult caretaker is almost a side-gig that you can do while you try to transition into a new industry. Believe all the people telling you that this can be exhausting work, both physically and emotionally. It will also take way more time out of your day than you may realize–cooking and cleaning after another person, driving them to and from appointments (and wherever else they need to go–grandma still needs to go to stores), and otherwise caring for their daily needs is AT LEAST a full-time job. If your grandma develops any medical needs beyond the ones she has already, your hours will become even longer. If you do your job, you will not have enough time to work part-time or intern, and it may be difficult or nigh-on-impossible to take classes and do well.

      As other people have pointed out, you’re also in danger of ending up as a full-time caretaker for the foreseeable future. Once you’re caring for grandma, your (probably perfectly well-meaning!) family may consider the problem solved and move on mentally. “Six months” turns into years, as wonderful family members with busy lives of their own continue to try to “sort things out.” When you try to quit, some contingents may become angry (“Do you want her to end up in a home?”) or resentful (“We had everything worked out!”). When you ask for help, the answer is generally “no,” because people have lives, and you’re handling everything, right?

      Third, you say you “know” your family would willing to pay you to take care of your grandma. If this is true, how much would they really be willing to pay? The average annual wage for a home health aide is $23,210–would your family be able or willing to offer something even close to that? If your family did, would you be able to live off of your salary and maintain your own place? (Do not move into grandma’s place to save money unless you want to provide 24-hour care.) What about health insurance, dental, etc.?

      Consider also that if your family is paying you to do something, then you really work for them, and layering the employment relationship on top of the family relationship can get hairy quickly. What if they don’t like the job you’re doing? What is some or all of them, for whatever reason, stop paying you? And if they’re paying you, they probably won’t get you any professional respite care or even help you with grandma themselves–you don’t get respite from your job, and they’re paying you to do this so they don’t have to.

      If you choose to take care of your grandma, do it because you want the full-time job of being a caretaker for an elderly person, with all that entails. Do not become a full-time caretaker because you love your grandma, want to help out your family, and would like some extra time to explore a new career. Especially do not do it if your primary objective is to switch jobs, because you’re not trying to get into the home health care industry. Going into this thing with any expectation besides “I will be a full-time caretaker, providing for 100% of my grandma’s needs, for little or no compensation” is a recipe for resentment.

      Tl;dr: NO

      1. Wibbets*

        Sorry for writing a book here (wish we could edit comments)…but seriously, this is not a good idea.

    15. Close Bracket*

      > Would ‘caring for an elderly family member’ be a good reason for leaving my job and allowing me to try a new path?

      Honestly, like breaking up w a romantic partner, any reason at all is a good reason. You need to take into account all the things that you would usually take into account when considering a career move. How will you gain new skills to support the move? How will you keep your current relevant skills fresh? How will you support yourself? I can see that you are thinking of those questions, but it sounds as though you are strategizing your career move around your grandmother’s care. Instead, strategize your grandmother’s care around your career move. Look for the classes or what ever you are going to take before you leave your job. Put that all into place first. As you put it into place, think about leaving time for doctors appointments, for example, make sure you have one day per week with no coursework or other scheduled commitment. Make it clear to your family that you will not cancel any classes to care for your grandmother and that you will be happy to schedule her appointments on those days that you have left for them. Think about how much support in terms of house cleaning, etc., you can give and have a strategy for filling the gaps. Say you plan to have coursework and internships on a part-time basis and can cook meals for your grandmother three days a week. What is the plan for the other days? Cook extra on your days? Have someone else cook when you are not available? You want to avoid care creep – that is, you need to make sure that caring for your grandmother does not completely take over your time and the derail your career move. Have a timeline for your career and an exit plan from the caregiving.
      Good luck!

    16. Oxford Coma*

      My SIL completed a rigorous 5-year STEM BS/MS combination program. She had offers to earn a PhD, but was mentally and physically broken down from the previous schooling. She agreed to basically what you’ve outlined here, when her mom’s degenerative illness took a downward turn.

      Mom hung on for years, and the second she dropped dead, Dad descended into Alzheimers. Two decades later, SIL is in her forties, with a blank resume and not a dime paid into social security.

      Do not do this. I get that you feel a bit adrift and uncertain about your career path, and this seems like a life raft to temporarily get your bearings. It isn’t. It’s quicksand.

    17. WillyNilly*

      I recommend, based on my own experiences, doing this. Absolutely. I did it, and benefited in so many ways!

      Do, definitely have a clear timeline (not “6 months” but “until November 18, 2018”). Do establish limits (“if grandma is unable to walk 100 feet” or “unable to stand up from a sitting position”) that will prompt a change in caretaking. Do get a confirmation about what your compensation will be, and how, when and from whom you will receive it. Do define your hours (internship time, your hobby/team/social life time, personal care time). And do have your out (if your family renegs you will call APS and engage a social worker to establish a care plan outside the family, etc).

      And enjoy and make the best of it!

  5. Scoop*

    I loved the salary negotiation AAM podcast episode a few weeks ago. Specifically the range of reasonable increase to ask for (80k to 84k for example).

    Does anyone have guidance for lower salary ranges? If the offer is 45k, I imagine asking for another 4k would be too much, so what’s a reasonable request? How about for 50k or 55k? 65k? Etc

    This is the more the range I’m likely to be offered and I don’t want to ask for something wild :)

    1. Logan*

      Percentages are a good way to think about it. $4k is 5% of $80k, so 5% of $45k is $2250. That precision might be a little weird, so maybe try $2500? It also depends upon what other hints / industry averages / other info that you have.

    2. Is This How We End Up On 20/20?*

      Most salaries operate on percentages. Think of raises, they will be around 3-10% in my experience depending on your role. A 45k offer, as for 5% so if they cannot do that they have wiggle room to counter without feeling you’re totally off base.

      Also make sure you know the comps for comparable wages in your area and the job requirements. Remember there are caps because one day you’ll have a 100k receptionist.

    3. Specialk9*

      How far are you in your career, years wise? I found that I’m my early years I made these wild percentages, 10%-15%, but the actual amount was low. Now I make smaller %, but the dollar amt is higher.

  6. ANON..*

    Any HR professionals/employment lawyers want to weigh in on a debate a friend and I were having?

    I had said that, though state laws vary and I don’t know every state’s laws on this, under federal law, political beliefs are not a protected category and thus an employer could discriminate against someone because of it. My friend didn’t believe me that someone could be fired because of their political beliefs.

    Then that got us thinking. NYC law dictates that employers cannot discriminate against someone based on religion and creed.

    Creed is interesting… By definition, it’s generally “a set of beliefs that guide one’s actions,” but in an employment/discrimination sense, must it be tied to beliefs held due to one’s religion? Must it be an organized religion? If not tied to religion, where do you draw the line?

    On another note, it’s pretty clear you can’t discriminate against someone who is anti-abortion, because that’s clearly part of their religious beliefs. However, can you discriminate against someone who is pro-choice?

    Some minimal research revealed that most states use “creed” and “religion” synonymously, i.e. someone cannot claim they were discriminated against because they are vegan, since their veganism is not tied to any sort of religious beliefs. But I feel like the pro-choice/anti-abortion example is a bit more nuanced; is the former really not protected while the latter is, even though they’re opposing sides of the same issue?

    And (apologies if this is getting too political!) since conservative/Republican values are also often based on religious beliefs (like abortion) while liberal/Democratic values are not, it would seem that conservative employers have more of a right to legally discriminate against liberal employees/candidates than vice versa. Does that make logical sense, or am I missing something?

    As a sidenote, why would a state include both religion and creed if they’re meant to be used synonymously?

    Anyway, I’d love to hear what others’ take on this whole matter is – I’m endlessly fascinated by this and interested to learn more, discuss, hear opposing thoughts, etc!

    2. fposte*

      NY says, “Creed refers to a set of moral or ethical beliefs and the practices and observances associated with those beliefs. Although creed includes traditional religious beliefs, it also incorporates belief systems that may not be expressed by an organized religious group.”

      IANAL, but my feeling is that governments and courts really don’t want to get creed tied into political beliefs; it’s too big a can of worms and too big a departure from original intent. (“Creed” is rooted in historical usage where it’s a lot more than a synonym for “belief.”) And while it obviously doesn’t govern in the US, Ontario has hashed this out and said they’re not the same.

      1. ANON..*

        But by that definition, it sounds like something like veganism could be covered, right? It can totally be something one does because of their moral/ethical beliefs and that governs one’s practices. So why wouldn’t something like that be covered?

        I guess my question is: What would be an example of something that creed would cover that religion does not?

        1. fposte*

          IANAL, and I think what you really need is a historically inclined lawyer here. Think of something like “hostile work environment” or “wrongful termination” and how they do not legally mean what they would mean to the lay reader–you can’t assume that just because the term used could fit something else in popular understanding it means it would fit it in legal understanding. My religious understanding, however, is that you can have non-creedal faiths and also non-recognized religions that have a creed, and that’s what the differentiation is historically getting at; it’s also a protection based on who’s been persecuted and discriminated against.

          Now I think it’s worth asking, in an era where people are increasingly defining themselves by beliefs about what’s right and what isn’t that are separate from a belief in God, whether the law will eventually decide those beliefs are protected as well. But currently “creed” on its own doesn’t do that, because it doesn’t mean simply “belief.”

      2. Juli G.*

        This article is interesting-

        http://hrprofessionalsmagazine.com/creed-t-human-rights-act/

        In summary, the thought is that most likely, courts will view religion and creed as synonymous and things like veganism unassociated with a religion won’t be covered there. The article also recommends not firing people for those type of things because… you know, why?

        Pro choice thing is interesting. I tend to believe it would be dismissed because courts won’t want to weigh in but who knows?

      3. Millennial Lawyer*

        “In order to have a viable discrimination claim, plaintiff must be a member of a protected class . . . The complaint, at best, alleged not that plaintiff was being singled out for being Catholic, but that plaintiff was not rehired because of political differences with other Catholics. Thus, he was not subject to discrimination by reason of membership in a protected class . . . Even if a protected class could be alleged, that class would be based on ethical or sociopolitical views, rather than religious beliefs. Neither the New York State nor New York City Human Rights Law protects against such discrimination.”

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      I kinda take issue with saying Republican values are based on religion whereas Democratic values are not. This is a very treacherous slope, so I will tread lightly. But I personally feel that the policies advocated by the current Republican party are at odds with the version of Christianity taught by Jesus in the New Testament.

      I know that most Republicans would probably disagree with me on that, though. I don’t wish to debate that particular point, but I only bring it up because I disagree with the premise.

      1. ANON..*

        Duly noted – I know it’s a sensitive subject, and should be treated delicately. I certainly did not mean to imply that all Republican values are based on religion, or that all religious Republicans were Republicans for religious reasons!

      2. Hellanon*

        I’ll go there! There’s a strong case to be made that the right’s actions on abortion have very little to do with religion & a whole lot more to do with deciding who gets to control women’s sexuality. Religion is a convenient mask to hide that behind, the same way it’s used to cover for homophobia and transphobia.

        1. ANON..*

          Not sure we should get into an actual politics discussion – I think that could get pretty heated pretty quickly. I’m trying to stay more focused on the actual employment laws surrounding this.

        2. Triple Anon*

          There are a lot of different ways people arrive at their beliefs. I have met liberal, non-religious people who were pro-life. In those cases, it was a being healthy and doing what’s natural sort of perspective, or concerns about minorities being disproportionately pressured into having abortions, pressure to abort fetuses that are viable yet considered abnormal from a social perspective, stuff like that. I’m sure there are many other possibilities.

      3. Specialk9*

        I made a long post below, that hopefully gets through moderation… The above assumptions have some Christo-centric assumptions that aren’t accurate for other religions.

        Jews are usually liberal/ Democrats, and ALSO our religion approves of abortion (except for trivial reasons) and is sex positive and leans toward birth control (“leans” in Jewish law interpretation, because the practice is so universal), and is supportive of LGBTQ folks (fascinatingly, our holy scriptures talk about transgender and postulate that Abraham and Sarah were genderqueer – see TransTorah website for more).

        Note that the above is primarily in regards to the bulk (90%) of the Jewish population, which is Reform, Conservative (which actually isn’t that socially conservative), nondenominational, or atheist/agonistic (which can but doesn’t necessarily mean non-practicing). Orthodox is very different, but they are a minority (10%) and half of their kids go to those other denominations as they age.

        1. Batshua*

          This makes me think maybe I should use “mainstream Judaism” to refer to MO, Traditional, Conservative, Reconstructionist, and Reform, but not, like, *gestures vaguely* … frumkeit?

          1. Specialk9*

            Are Modern Orthodox or Reconstructionist mainstream? I feel like they aren’t. Same with Renewal and Humanists.

            Aaaaand we’re Jews splitting hairs. :)

            1. Ann O.*

              I would call Modern Orthodox mainstream, but not Reconstructionist/Renewal/Humanist. To me, it’s about recognizability of doctrine. At least based on what I know of them Reconstructionist/Renewal/Humanist have pretty significant departures in doctrine (although I went to a Reconstructionist synagogue growing up, and in practice, it was basically identical to the Conservative synagogue that I go to now)

              1. Batshua*

                I mean, honestly, Judaism is about like, what people DO, not what people BELIEVE, so barring some really fringey stuff…

                Then again, everyone defines fringey differently.

        2. Ann O.*

          I agree with a lot of this post, but the idea that Abraham and Sarah were genderqueer is not mainstream Judaism and I don’t want commenters reading here to be misled into thinking that it is. I wouldn’t describe Judaism as intrinsically LGBTQ+ friendly either, although I do agree that it had a solid base that led to the current Reform/Conservative/etc. LGBTQ+ friendly interpretations.

          1. Specialk9*

            You’re right that my second post was not as carefully phrased as my first, but confusingly the 2nd one was upthread of the 1st.

            You’re right that I was speaking of Reform Judaism about LGBTQ acceptance, since that’s my experience. Reform is the biggest slice of the Jewish pie in the US, at 35%. My understanding is that Conservative (18%) is getting there too, and my nondenominational friends seem pretty cool with LGBTQ stuff (though granted that may be bc that’s pretty much my friend group, so may be confirmation bias).

            Jews have been at the forefront of the fight for gay rights.

            I actually do feel like we get to claim this one. And I’m going to, because I’m really proud of it, and because so many people think that religion = intolerance, and they don’t know that’s not an absolute.

      5. JennyFair*

        Yeah…the more I read my Bible, the more liberal I get, so I’m with Trout on this one. Although conservatives like to tout religion as a motivation, I don’t think their views are any more motivated by their religious beliefs than anyone else’s. I could (and probably have) talk for hours on the contrast between what we are commanded to do and what the religious right is currently fighting for.

        1. Triple Anon*

          Yes! I read the Bible when I was a kid and it gave me an anarchist / socialist sort of viewpoint. The recurring message is one of equality, being humble, and being aware of how power tends to be abused and material wealth distances you from God (that whole camel and needle thing). Live a simple life and focus on helping other people.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          “Above all else, love each other.” The longer I thought about this, the more and more stuff I just let go of. Things that I was taught in earlier years that seemed sooo important, really are not that important to me anymore.

        3. Wintermute*

          I think it is more accurate to say “they are more likely to state that religious beliefs are the source of their political opinions”. While one can certainly argue that the New Testament has a lot of very liberal thinking, and that Supply Side Jesus and the real one have very little in common, if you asked 100 self-identified liberals and 100 self-identified conservatives the biggest source of their political opinions, vastly more conservatives would STATE religion as the reason and few if any liberals.

    4. Emi.*

      I’ve talked both to people who say their pro-choice stance is motivated by their religion and to people whose pro-life stance is very clearly not motivated by their religion, because they don’t have one (and they tend to get very frustrated by that stereotype!). But it might still count as a “creed,” especially since among the people I’m closest with it’s part of an integrated practice of nonviolence.

      1. Jadelyn*

        The Satanic Temple has actually been using religious protection laws to their advantage in fighting against anti-abortion statutes – claiming that, for example, forcing people seeking abortions to listen to a spiel that amounts to someone’s religious beliefs (life begins at conception, etc.) is a violation of their right to exercise their own religious beliefs, which define a nonviable fetus as part of the mother rather than a separate life. They actually won a case in Missouri on those grounds recently, if I recall correctly.

        2. Specialk9*

          My assumption about Satanists who are fighting the good fight is that they don’t actually worship Satan, but are using a religious loophole to inject sanity into overly Christian-enforcing laws, and are being provocative. I admit I don’t know any Satanists though, so would love to hear from someone who does know 1st or 2nd hand!

          1. Ellery*

            It’s worth noting that Satanists and The Satanic Temple are different beings. The Satanic Temple is non-theistic.

          2. Moonbeam Malone*

            I don’t know much about Satanism but I do know despite commonly being mistaken for Satan Worship those are two different things. I think it’s more to do with rejecting the authority of God and religion (and maybe pushing back against authority in general) in a way similar to Satan rejecting the authority of God? Like, they don’t worship Satan but there’s some sense of shared philosophy there.

          3. Jadelyn*

            It depends on the individual. There is theistic Satanism, and non-theistic Satanism. The Satanic Temple, which is the organization doing this activist work with religious status to back them up, is the non-theistic kind.

            I’m actually a member of TST, more as a political statement than anything else – but I am also a semi-theistic Luciferian, which are sort of cousins to Satanists. The various sects and belief-sets that group around the names/concepts of Lucifer and/or Satan are…kind of a weird tangled bunch. Many are not actually related to each other, but just happen to have washed up against the same spot on the theistic beach, so to speak.

            For myself, though I’m not a Satanist, it’s one of those things where an action can be both religious and secular – as with many religions, my personal beliefs dictate that I should try to actively work toward bringing the world toward a better state of openness, freedom, and knowledge – so while TST is nontheistic and using their status as a religion for political purposes, my support for them is both political and in line with my own religious convictions.

            Hope that made some kind of sense.

            1. Specialk9*

              That’s very helpful. Thanks for explaining! That was my general belief – belief system around Satan seem to be pretty nice and unobjectionable, unlike the human blood sacrifices I grew up being taught about.

          1. Jadelyn*

            !! I haven’t played in a long time, but I loved my mesmer, so I keep the icon. :)

    5. Enough*

      I think the creed issue is that it covers those that do not belong to a particular religion like Roman Catholic or Methodist or Judaism but still believe in the bible or a higher being. So it would cover Muslims, Buddhists, and non-denominational Christians.

      1. Headachey*

        Islam, Buddhism, and Christianity are major religions – how are these different to you than Judaism or specific types of Christianity? Just curious about your thought here, Enough.

        1. Specialk9*

          Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion. (Though in practice, it does seem to hold similar space.) I don’t understand the assertion about Islam and other Christians though.

          I had assumed creed referenced things like Masons — which lots of the Founding Fathers were.

          2. Natalie*

            I don’t know if I’d state that so declaratively. The only are this seems to be debated is the west, since it doesn’t map neatly onto the two models of religion we’re familiar with. It’s absolutely considered a religion in India, where it originated, and Asia in general.

            It would also certainly be classed as a religion for the purposes of civil rights law.

    6. A.*

      I know several people who were fired for supporting the previous administration when a new elected official joined the office. Some people simply had posted things on their Facebook in support and that was enough to get them the boot. One person sued for discrimination but the lawsuit was dismissed.

      1. ANON..*

        Fascinating! Do you know what sort of discrimination the person who was suing was claiming? Do you mind my asking what state this happened in? I’m also intrigued by how different states handle it.

        1. A.*

          The terminated employee filed a lawsuit based on a violation of her First Amendment right to free speech and association. The Court dismissed the case on the basis that the elected official was exempt from First Amendment political protections.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This is weird. So elected officials are not protected under the First Amendment?

            1. AH*

              As a federal employee who works overseas, we are restricted in what we can post on social media because we are considered to be “on the clock” all the time.

          2. Canarian*

            I thought it was the other way around? Whenever the First Amendment comes up and people get fired, isn’t the whole discussion about how the First Amendment applies to the government (presumably including an office of an elected official) but not private business?

    7. HR Profess (pls don't automatically think ill of me)*

      Political beliefs are not a protected class.

    8. HeightsHeifer*

      While I cannot speak for NY law, political beliefs are not considered a classification for basis of discrimination.

    9. Specialk9*

      Heads up, that you might be thinking mostly of Christianity in this, and there are other religions with very different teachings so don’t assume too much.

      Jews hold strong opinions to the opposite (pro-choice, pro-birth control), based on our holy texts, religious law, cultural trends, and rabbinic decision/voting.

      83% of all Jews of any denomination are pro-choice, and the biggest group (Reform) explicitly oks abortion for any non-trivial reason (rape, incest, physical or mental fetal damage etc).

      We Reform also officially ok’ed gay clergy and made temples safe spaces for transgender and LGBQ folks (there are stickers on the doors). Reform temples, in my experience, have way more gay clergy than the general population, and my observation was that the transitioning transgender guy I knew who was converting was treated with care and respect.

      (Fyi, Reform has a rabbinic voting process for big issues, and then for other topics the individual rabbis make their own calls, like whether to marry a Jew & non-Jew — most do, but with some counseling and conditions — or conduct a gay marriage — though that’s usually a pretty automatic greenlight these days.)

      2. Specialk9*

        Oh, and Jews are hugely more likely to be Democrats. So we actually ARE in alignment with our religion when we’re being liberal.

        (In reference to your statement “conservative/Republican values are also often based on religious beliefs (like abortion) while liberal/Democratic values are not”)

      3. ANON..*

        Right, so the question becomes could someone claim discrimination based on their (Jewish) religion if they were fired/not hired because they are pro-choice.

        (Note, this is not asking if they were fired for *having* an abortion – that’s already protected!)

      4. Detective Amy Santiago*

        And not all sects of Christianity share those beliefs either. I know the Episcopalian church allows LGBT ministers and will hold LGBT weddings.

        1. Natalie*

          There’s also a long tradition of progressive Christianity, both Protestant and Catholic. Despite the loudness of non-denom fundamentalists, they don’t have a monopoly on Christianity anymore than liberation theology socialists do.

    10. Jadelyn*

      I’m fairly sure that “creed” is intended to cover religious beliefs not tied to a recognized organized religion, rather than the literal dictionary definition of “personal beliefs”. For example, eclectic/non-path Pagans may have strong religious beliefs, but if they’re a solitary practitioner and are not members of a coven or temple or other faith organization, their faith would be considered their creed rather than their religion. A statute that only protects religion might not protect that individual, but a statute that includes religion and creed would.

      1. Natalie*

        That wouldn’t be necessary, though, as there’s no requirement that religious beliefs be through as organized group or hierarchy to be protected.

        1. fposte*

          I think whether it’s necessary now, following a variety of high court decisions, is a different question from whether it was considered necessary when the term first made it into legislation. I don’t know when NY drafted its language, but “creed” is so historically established in human rights language that I suspect it’s harder work to get it out than to put it in.

          1. Natalie*

            True, but I rather doubt that it was intended to protect, say, eclectic pagans at the time it was written either. You’re probably right that’s it just a common phraseology and wasn’t necessarily parsed this deeply.

            It is kind of interesting how that can work later, though, in a similar vein to the EEOC starting to backdoor GLBT protections into the law by reinterpreting them as a form of sex discrimination.

            1. fposte*

              Yeah, I’d be interested in knowing more of the history on this; I suspect it might end up in theological weeds as much as legal. But it makes me think of all the weird fields exempted from the FLSA, and how people ask “What was the thinking behind excluding that field?” And I suspect mostly the thinking was “They had a really strong lobby and we wanted to get this bill through so we choked it down.”

    11. Not a Mere Device*

      I saw something recently about a man who is suing on the grounds that California law (the Unruh act) means that he can’t be excluded from an event because of his political positions. But even if he wins on that basis, California Is Different.

      I am not a llama, nor a Californian.

    12. Anon for now*

      At a time when I worked at a company where all the execs were Scientologists and their management philosophy was based on the works of L. Rob Hubbard, there was a potential law on the ballot for an election that would have enacted a tax to pay for mental health services. Scientologists are deeply opposed to the practice of psychiatry. The company put a “No on [Potential Law]” in front of the building.

      Even though I strongly supported the yes position, I would not have dared to put a “Yes on [Law]” sticker on my car that I drove to work. My support of the law was not based in religion. If it had been though and if they’d disciplined or fired me, I wonder if I would have had a legal complaint against them? Otherwise though, no leg to stand on?

      I agree that it seems weird that one type of adverse action is totes okay under the law, but the other would not be for engaging in the same behavior, just for different reasons.

    13. Justme, The OG*

      They do not have to be tied to religion, as long as they are “reasonably held.” I remember a case from my employment law class that was related to discrimination based on veganism unrelated to religion.

    14. Thlayli*

      One point – there are plenty of pro life atheists and plenty of pro-choice religious people. Whether someone is pro-life or pro-choice (or more commonly what types of restrictions they think should be placed on abortion) is about a lot more than just religion. Also, some religions support abortion – for example I believe Judaism teaches that a soul enters the body at birth. While many atheists think that science supports the theory that foetuses are human beings and so oppose abortion. It’s really not at all as simple as “pro life = religious, pro-choice = not religious”.

      Not being American I don’t know how that feeds into your equality legislation but I suspect that you would have to prove that your religion matches your political beliefs to claim discrimination. Eg it would be legal to fire a prochoice Catholic or a pro life Jew for their political beliefs because they could not claim that those beliefs were related to their “creed”.

      1. ANON..*

        Of course there are plenty of people who simultaneously hold different political beliefs/religious beliefs/etc.

        What I think is the tension point for me is what you highlighted in your last paragraph: That it’s totally cool to fire a pro-choice Catholic and an anti-abortion Jew….but not a pro-choice Jew and anti-abortion Catholic. If that’s true, that’s just wild to me!

        2. Thlayli*

          Well like I said I don’t live in America so I don’t know what the laws are, but as I understand it you can fire someone in America for any reason at all, except for very specific reasons that are outlined in law.

          It may not be the case in New York, but I believe it is the case in other states that you CAN be fired for political beliefs, not religious ones. So anyone can be fired for being pro life, or for being pro choice, EXCEPT for people who can prove that their religion teaches them to be pro life or pro choice.

    15. Millennial Lawyer*

      *Disclaimer that this is not legal advice, rather what I found in case law out of interest on the matter – it by no means is the full explanation of the law on this topic*

      New York City’s Human Rights Law is extremely more liberal than federal and even the NY state discrimination laws. But even under NYCHRL, no, political or social views are not covered, *even* if it relates to the complainant’s religion.

      “In order to have a viable discrimination claim, plaintiff must be a member of a protected class . . . The complaint, at best, alleged not that plaintiff was being singled out for being Catholic, but that plaintiff was not rehired because of political differences with other Catholics. Thus, he was not subject to discrimination by reason of membership in a protected class . . . Even if a protected class could be alleged, that class would be based on ethical or sociopolitical views, rather than religious beliefs. Neither the New York State nor New York City Human Rights Law protects against such discrimination.”
      Keady v. Nike, Inc., Sept. 29, 2000 (U.S. Dist. Ct., S.D.N.Y.). See my name link for the full decision (also note that this decision was partially vacated on unrelated grounds – the context I’m using it for still makes sense)

      Also keep in mind that NY labor law prevents discrimination against “political activities” but that specifically means running for public office, campaigning for a candidate for public office, or participating in fund-raising activities for the benefit of a candidate, political party or political advocacy group, during an employee’s recreational time.

    16. Indoor Cat*

      Ooh, that’s interesting. So, someone vegetarian or pacifist for religious reasons (maybe they’re Jain, Quaker, or certain denominations of Buddhist or Taoist) could be protected from being fired even if, for whatever reason, their pacifism or vegetarianism causes some conflict with other employees, and they may have grounds for a hostile work environment suit if they’re harassed and harangued over these beliefs. But, a secular humanist with identical beliefs in the exact same situation would not be protected?

      1. Mad Baggins*

        +1 I don’t usually argue that atheism/being nonreligious is a “type” of religion, but this is one of those areas where having the religious reason would be helpful as a legal backing.

  7. Lcsa99*

    Does anyone know anything about Google business listings? Our company sells teapots wholesale, only to retailers and manufacturers, but when anyone Googles “teapot shops” or something similar in our area, our office will pop up.

    I managed to change the listing so it no longer says “teapot store” under our company name on the listing; it now says “teapot manufacturer” but apparently it isn’t good enough and we end up getting a lot of people dropping by hoping to browse a shop. I can’t even figure out how to change our listing to show we are only open by appointment only. It will either let me put specific times or say we are closed. Any suggestions?

    1. Is This How We End Up On 20/20?*

      Oh you’ll never ever have them stop coming or calling. I’ve been in wholesale manufacturing for 15 years in three different items. It’s not Google leading them in. They just don’t ever take “wholesale only” as an answer.

      “I have 12 of your teapots I’m a collector! I buy them direct all the time!” yeeeeeah no…direct through your local retailer. *stabbing motions*

      1. Lcsa99*

        That’s kinda what I figured, but was hoping to at least have something to point to when sending them away. Thanks, anyway

        1. Is This How We End Up On 20/20?*

          Can you put up a sign or note on your door to thwart people wandering in? That’s helped some times.

          Google is a brat, it took so long to get them to correct a bad address for my old employer. It would send people to the middle of nowhere. So many angry confused truckers

    2. Melissa*

      There is an option where it won’t show your address on a map and you can select a service area instead. It supposed to be for people who provide services outside of a physical address, or say you work from home and don’t want that address listed. That might work for you, although that might not make sense since there probably are people who do need to find your physical address.

      1. Lcsa99*

        Yeah, we purchase the licenses for a lot of our designs from outside designers so we have people visiting all the time. Same reason I can’t just not list hours. Thanks

    3. JKP*

      Can you upload pictures of your business to your listing that clearly show it’s not a store? If it clearly looks like a manufacturer instead of a retail shop, maybe that visual clue will help.

    4. Lindsay J*

      No idea, but it seems to be a common problem.

      There’s a Canon printer sales office in my area that Google has helpfully labeled as a Camera Store. I imagine they get a bunch of people showing up there.

      Same thing with a FedEx hub with no actual consumer shipping capabilities.

    5. Church Lady*

      It took me two years of sporadic calls tomBoogle to get them to change us from a Presbyterian church to “Our Denomination.”
      Best wishes.

  8. RZ*

    I’m getting married soon, and there’s a bit of an issue with my husband’s work. I am fairly successful in my chosen career, my husband to be is very high up in a major national firm. The firm is run by a husband and wife, who are both quite domineering. They have made it clear that I am expected to give up my career, and accompany my husband on various work trips in future.
    Is there any way I can push back on this? It doesn’t seem fair that I have to just be seen as my husband’s partner in the future. I’m a bit wary of how to proceed, apparently a previous wife of another of the high-ups in this firm met a sticky end after she crossed them.

    1. Red Reader*

      This seems like the perfect place for “I’m afraid that won’t be possible.” And your husband to start job hunting. :-P

      1. A Person*

        It’s been a long time since anyone quit a royal family, though. Might need special scripts for that.

        2. Lizzy*

          True, but the last time someone married an American divorcee was the last time someone quit!

          1. Jules the Third*

            And it’s not like he’s in line to head the company anymore, not with three kids ahead of him.

    2. Annie Moose*

      Do you work for your husband’s firm? If not, I’m confused about why they would think they have any control over your life, and why they would insist on a person they don’t employ going on business trips.

      1. Fa la la*

        ^^this! You don’t work for them; what grounds can they possibly believe they have to ask this. Wow.

      2. Thlayli*

        Well technically once Meghan marries Harry she will become part of the royal family, so in this analogy she actually IS joining the firm.

    3. anna green*

      That’s crazy! Why would you need to go on these trips? You can try to show how your presence is not helpful/required, and gently push back on why they want you to do this. But I’m not confident that they will respond reasonably since this is a crazy request to begin with.

      1. nep*

        I don’t even think you’re obliged to spend any time or energy trying to show how your presence is not required. Second the response suggested above–something along the lines of: ‘That won’t be possible.’ Period. (If, as I understand it, this is your husband’s employer and not yours.) This is jaw-droppingly ridiculous. How / in what context did the employer say this?

        1. nep*

          Whoa–wait. I was focused on the travel bit for a second there. That aspect is nothing compared to the other part of their mandate: That you’ll be expected Give.Up.Your.Career.
          Beyond ridiculous. Can’t even fathom.

    4. TGIF*

      What a bizarre request! Why do they care that his wife be seen at work trips? What if he was single, would they make him bring a girlfriend along?

      I would definitely say no to this request and make sure your husband backs you on that.

    5. soupmonger*

      Good grief. What decade are they living in? Is there any way you can basically duck the question- vaguely agree to accompany depending on your schedule, and then just have schedule clashes whenever a husband work trip actually comes up? If you avoid actively crossing this pair, then perhaps you can work around this (literally)?

    6. anyone out there but me*

      Why should your husband’s employer have any say at all over what YOU do with YOUR career? They don’t get a vote, if you ask me. This is between you and your husband. Does he want you to give up your job and follow him on trips?

      1. LKW*

        If they want to control your career then they can pay you to give up your career to travel with him. I say that sounds like it’s worth at least $250K per year. Anything less is insulting.

    7. rosie*

      Wait, so you don’t work at the same company as your husband and they’re still trying to dictate this stuff? What garbage.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        I agree RE: garbage, but I’m not all that surprised.

        Look at politicians, and how frequently it’s expected, especially during campaigning, that a wife will dedicate herself to supporting her husband’s career, and how it will be commented on if she doesn’t. I imagine that once you’re really, really high up in the business world, it probably isn’t that different. Yuck.

          1. Lizzy*

            eeeehhhhh that’s pushing it. I mean, it’s sorta like a political company but they’re supposed to be above politics.

    8. Camellia*

      “met a sticky end”? This sounds like they killed her. Since I’m (reasonably) sure that’s not the case, can you please elaborate? I can’t imagine what they DID do to her, unless she also worked there and they fired her or something.

          1. Lizzy*

            OMG I feel ridiculous. DUH. And I’m totally planning on getting up at 4:30 tomorrow morning…

        4. Tedious Cat*

          I love everything about this.

          Seriously, I think acting is probably one of the best backgrounds for someone marrying into The Firm… that ability will come in handy when you attend approximately one million ribbon cuttings. (It worked out beautifully for Monaco, though I’m not sure it went so well for Grace…)

      4. Camellia*

        Duh. Got me. I think it speaks to some of the crazy stories we hear that so many of us thought this was totally plausible.

      5. AnonForThis*

        It is a fairly widespread conspiracy theory that the royal family arranged for Diana’s car crash because of her relationship with Dodi al Fayed.

    9. Camellia*

      Also, if they were hiring YOU, would they expect your husband to quit his job and devote himself to YOUR career?

        1. Southernbelle*

          No, hiring involves an exchange of money for services. She, herself, is not being offered money for this. She is being dragooned, not hired.

          1. Thlayli*

            She will be getting an allowance from the queen though won’t she? All the royals get specific amounts of money paid out of the queens pocket.

          1. Aunt Vixen*

            Lot of folks biting right down on it, though. :-) You and I can sit over here and drink tea and eat lemon elderflower cake and watch everyone else’s head explode.

      4. KatTheRussian (France)*

        Oh my god, Snubble you are so smart and this is such a royally great question all around!

      5. Rookie Manager*

        Well played. Very well played.

        My feminism triggered high blood pressure can calm down.

        1. Ciara Amberlie*

          “My feminism triggered high blood pressure can calm down.”

          Should it though? Because this is actually happening. Just because it’s royalty doesn’t mean it’s any less egregious.

          1. Aunt Vixen*

            Let’s pretend it’s a real question about a real person contemplating marrying someone where the marriage will entail giving up an existing career and becoming the spouse’s companion for the rest of basically forever. Whatever you think about the management of this firm, it’s not likely to change. So what would Alison say? You have to decide if you still want the job – in this case, the marriage – given those terms. (Like I said downthread: It’s not like any of this was sprung on anybody in a surprising manner. One knows what one is getting into and has the opportunity to decide not to, unlike those who are unfortunate enough to be born to it like the big boss in this scenario.)

            A grown woman making a choice she’s free to make isn’t especially egregious at all.

          2. Anon Today*

            I think it’s different though. When you marry a working royal (versus the ones that the taxpayers support, but who do nothing), you know that is part of the marriage. It’s never a secret, and it doesn’t matter if you are a man or a woman. Prince Phillip didn’t get to keep his day job after Elizabeth became Queen.

            To me that is different because it’s public knowledge. No one enters a relationship with a working royal with a different impression.

            1. Lizzy*

              Agreed. Especially after the Diana debacle. I’m sure Harry (and family) made it well-known the expectations. To be honest, I think her background as an actress helps, rather than hinders. She’ll be able to use her (already polished) public image to bring light to causes important to her. She’s already shown her desire to do this – she did it before she was with Harry.
              She’s making a choice. Feminism, at it’s core, is all about the ability to choose. Just because she’s choosing something that many of us would not choose doesn’t make her any less of a feminist.

              Side example: I’m pretty religious, and very conservative. A couple of years ago I made the choice to no longer wear pants. I haven’t worn a skirt above the knee for over a year. I don’t wear anything that shows cleavage, and I didn’t brush my hair today because I wear it up every day, so there literally wasn’t a reason to brush it. I would never get an abortion, I do think that women naturally gravitate towards homemaking roles, I consider my husband to be the head of the household in name and actions. HOWEVER – this is MY CHOICE. I discuss every one of my decisions with my husband, but my decisions are supported fully by him. I went to a women’s college, which is basically the epitome of modern feminism. I support ALL women’s right to choose, regardless of if that’s who they marry, how they dress, their politics, their career… Obviously there are consequences to your choice, but at the end of the day, it’s YOUR CHOICE and it’s not egregious for a woman to choose anything, IMO.

              1. Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farms*

                Hey there fellow religious conservative woman in the AAM comments! Just wanted to wave at you and let you know there are…*some* of us!

              2. Polished my foot*

                I thought Meghan Markle was polished until I saw her in person. I was there at the memorial service for Stephen Lawrence. For those unfamiliar with the story, he was a young black British man who was murdered due to racial violence 25 years ago. Prince Harry and Meghan attended.

                Meghan’s hair was messy and she looked like she rolled out of bed. She wore a sleeveless dress with a plunging v-neck that was was even lower than it looked in the photos. She had bare legs. It was not an appropiate outfit for a church service, or for a future member of the royal family.

                In addition, she and Haryy constantly held hands and had PDA, she smiled and titered throughout the entire event, was constantly looking for the cameras and flashing her ring.

                I’m British and I am a fan of the royals. I am biracial like Meghan, my father is white and my mother is black. I’m a huge fan of the show Suits. I was so excited when they got engaged.

                Her actions that day were appalling. Yes there is a learning curve to becoming a royal, but how to dress and conduct yourself at a church service that is a memorial for a murder victim should be common sense. I cannot believe someone acted so childish and gross. Harry is just as bad for participating.

                She is not polished or poised. She has no idea how to act appropriately. If my fiance ever acted like her I would have run away in embarrassment. After seeing how she acted I think Harry is making a huge mistake, though given that he was just as bad, I am not surprised he thinks her behavior that day was fine.

                1. Marcela*

                  Wow. That’s a whole lot of judging going on from one single event. If my fiancé(e) ever judged someone so harshly I’d run away in embarrassment too. I’m so fascinated by your definition of “plunging” and the need for stockings when it’s 2018 and her dress went down to her shins.

                2. Polished my foot*

                  Had the engagement not been a memorial for a murder victim at a church her clothing would have been fine and more than appropriate. In photos you could not see it, but in person her bra was visible because the dress was so low. Stocking are needed when it’s a future royal going to church. This is clearly protocol. Again, had it not been in church they would not have been needed.

                  Further, even if she had been wearing a different outfit, similar to Prime Minister May or other women present, the fact is that she was laughing when people were describing the pain of his murder. You do not do that and royal or not, everyone should know better.

                  There are photos of her tittering, grinning and laughing. At one point she was nearly sitting on Harry’s lap. They held hands and swung their arms like a couple of teenagers.

                  They both behaved badly even if her dress is taken out of the equation. Laughing during a service for a murder victim when people are sharing their pain is disgusting. She should have known better and acted better, and Harry should have behaved better also.

          3. Rookie Manager*

            If a Mr Merkle was marrying Princess Henrietta, 5th in line to the throne then it would be the same conditions. Prince Phil left his Naval career when he married the Queen. Yes it’s a crazy situation but it’s not as sexist as first appears.

            1. Popcorn Lover*

              The Crown deals with this in season 1. Phillip actually comes across as a petulant child about it, and there is a lot of energy devoted to giving him “something to do.” Same in Victoria, with Prince Albert’s dilettantish interest in SCIENCE and WELFARE

          4. Falling Diphthong*

            It’s a situation where the tax-payers pay you a salary to provide entertainment for them. So I really don’t have the problem I would in other circumstances.

            Relatedly, I have absolutely no patience with animated princess movies where she gets to live in a tax-payer funded mansion and enjoy a life of comfort and indulgence, until–oh noes!–she is expected to marry to secure an important political alliance to protect those tax payers, rather than just to do about what would make her happy. I am looking at you, Mulan 2, where the people who have kept you in luxury all your life being massacred by an invading army is but a small price to pay for the freedom to marry a dude you just met who makes you laugh.

        2. Specialk9*

          I mean, she’s being VERY well compensated to quit her current job and become an ambassador. It wouldn’t be worth it for me, but it is an actual job.

      8. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        This made me laugh very hard – I’m extremely local to the national firm HQ in question and it took me a minute to twig…

    12. Tell me more...*

      “…apparently a previous wife of another of the high-ups in this firm met a sticky end after she crossed them.”

      You should probably elaborate. Inquiring minds, and all..

      1. Nita*

        I’m thinking of John Grisham’s “The Firm” here… in which case husband and wife should both run for the exit. Very, very carefully.

      2. Not a Mere Device*

        It involved a car crash, and lots of people wondering whether it was really an accident.

    13. Aunt Vixen*

      On the one hand, I agree with the comment thread that the expectations of people you don’t work for are irrelevant in most careers.

      On the other hand, I see what you did there, Tig. Er, RZ. “The firm” indeed. Nicely played. :-)

      Marrying into the royal family is different than marrying into any other family or firm in the world. It just is. Dude’s job is not his job – it’s his life. It’s not really a question of “the firm” having unreasonable expectations of the in-laws; she could certainly have decided not to pursue the relationship or not to accept the proposal. The expectations didn’t come along after everything else had been decided, after all.

    14. Boredatwork*

      you’re dealing with crazy here –

      You need to have a very serious and very honest conversation with Hubby-to-be. The fact that these people have caused someone’s divorce means you need to discuss this now. Make sure you’re both in the same page about his career and your career. I have a feeling “that won’t be possible” will have some serious negative ramifications for your fiance.

    15. The Original K.*

      If you don’t work for them, I don’t see how what you do is any of their business. I would just keep working where you work and if they reach out to you, tell them some version of “I’m good, thanks.” If they continue to reach out to you, I’d block them. You aren’t beholden to them.

      And are they murdering people who don’t do what they say?!

    16. Temperance*

      Um, yes. That’s gross and weird. Your HUSBAND needs to be the one stepping up here, and letting his bosses know that it’s a ridiculous request.

    17. MuseumChick*

      Fantasy reply: “HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Yeah, no.”

      Actual replay: “That won’t be possible.” “Husband and I already discussed this, thanks. *subject change*” With an oblivious voice: “Oh no, I would never give up my career. *Subject change*”

      This is also a good time to “bean dip” a person.

      Them: “You will have to give up your career.”
      You: “Hey this is some good bean dip, have your tried it?”
      Them: “You will have to accompany him and *list of business trips*
      You: “Seriously, who made this bean dip, it’s really good.”
      Them: “I don’t want to talk about bean dip! I want to talk about how to run your personal life!”
      You: “Ok, I’m going to go find whoever made this bean dip. I need to recipe.”

    18. animaniactoo*

      How does your husband feel about it? Is he willing to back you on not giving up your career?

      If so, it’s really up to him “I value the work RZ does, and prefer that she continues to do that. I will be fine without 24/7 availability from her. If her schedule allows her to accompany me on some trips, I’ll let you know.”

      1. Lizzy*

        They’ll schedule the trips around her schedule. I mean… her schedule will be re-worked by the Powers That Be to allow her to accompany him. I mean…

        It’s fine. They’ll be fine.

        As to how he feels, he’s stated that he doesn’t like a lot of the requirements of the job, but he’s thankful for the platform it has provided for him to advocate for causes close to him.

    19. Phoenix Programmer*

      Honestly I think taking up a lot of space on the open work thread to post a question from a skewed perspective of the future duchess of “royal wedding 2.0” is lame.

      1. Lizzy*

        I think it’s hilarious, and by far the best post of the day. If you don’t like it, please feel free to collapse the replies and move on.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        There are many trailing spouses who forgo a career for their person. I am also thinking of minister’s spouses, now there is a 24/7 job. And, yeah the spouse does as much work as the minister. There are other ways that jobs leach over into home life and cause permanent changes. How about people exposed to radiation or heavy chemicals. Part of planning a wedding is planning a marriage. We have to look at our person and ask ourselves if we want their setting in our lives. The job and the spouse are a package deal in some instances.

    20. Penny Lane*

      I don’t understand how they could make you “meet a sticky end.” How do they have any influence whatsoever in your household’s decisions?

      Is this the US? Because I can’t think of any “major national firm” in the US where this kind of thinking exists.

        1. Canarian*

          I’m chuckling quietly to myself about the idea of imperialism/colonialism being rebranded by neo-capitalism as “establishing lavish branch offices”

    22. Penny Lane*

      Oh geez! I get it! Well done.

      I think Meghan Markle is still going to wind up doing whatever the hell she wants to do. She isn’t Diana, who was just a kindergarten teacher, or Kate, whose career I never heard about. She went to an elite university and had a real career. She’ll be fine!

      1. MuseumChick*

        Ok, can we not refer to anyone’s career as “just”? It’s really demeaning and disrespectful. And, Diana did a huge amount of charity work, one of the reasons so many loved her.

        Kate attended several exclusive private schools and comes from a very working class background (her grandparents were coal miners).

        1. A.*

          Right! I mean people who went to elite universities had to go to kindergarten at some point…

        2. Anon Today*

          Kate attended St. Andrews, which is a pretty elite university in it’s own right.

          Meghan will have more freedom than Kate or Diana, simply because she will never become Queen.

          1. Penny Lane*

            I don’t recall hearing about any career Kate had, but it’s possible that I missed it. My comment about Diana was not to disparage her, but to note that she wasn’t a high powered serious career woman the way Meghan Markle is.

            1. Specialk9*

              Kate worked in an investment bank? I think? (I try not to spy on their lives bc I pity the royals, but somehow I learn stuff)

              1. Environmental Compliance*

                Didn’t she do something in the fashion world at some point? I thought I remembered the internet blowing up because of some dress scandal thing some time back around their engagement.

                1. Canarian*

                  According to Wikipedia, she was a part time accessories buyer for a clothing chain, and then worked for her family’s party planning business, which I think Pippa did too. But then again, she had a pretty good idea by the time she would have been starting a career that she was destined to quit any career for the Firm eventually.

                2. MuseumChick*

                  @Canarian, I think I remember reading something about how when it became clear she was going to be in along term relationship with William that selecting a career became a challenge. It needed to be a positions that wouldn’t embarrass the royal family, she would be expect to drop things suddenly for royal events, and security concerns for her personal safety. So finding a job that fit the bill was a challenge.

                  Part time accessories buyer seems like the perfect fit! Lol.

        3. MuseumChick*

          I am a bit sensitive to the word “just” as it is often used in this kind of context “Oh she is just a stay at home mom.” My mom was a stay at home mom for years. She also have *5* college degrees, her own money to do whatever she wanted with, and it was laughable to think anyone could tell her what to do. She eventually went back to work once the youngest went off to college.

          My sister worked for years until she decided she wanted to be a stay at home mom. She only has 3 college degrees but I’m sure once her kids are grown she will catch up to mom, lol.

            1. MuseumChick*

              She earned most of them way before the cost of college got so out of control. The last one she got was after the youngest was off at college and between her and my dad they were able to pay for it without taking out loans.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Diana paved the way so Meghen CAN do what she wants. It wasn’t just Buckingham Palace that learned something here in the Diana story. I think the world changed it’s expectations of the Royals.

        1. many bells down*

          And QEII grew up in the shadow of a disastrous Royal marriage. She wouldn’t even have been Queen if her uncle hadn’t chucked it all for his American divorcee. I feel like between that, her sister’s troubled marriage, and her childrens’ divorces she really saw the need to change how they go about the whole mess.
          She’s trying to do better by her grandkids, at least.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Agreed, she has touched the hearts of her people in ways that her predecessors never did.

    23. Really?*

      I have no idea how your husband’s firm would have any decison making role in what you do with your life. This isn’t the 1950’s women don’t have to leave their job once they get married. You don’t need to push back this isn’t even in the realm of anything to do with them. In fact they shouldn’t even been talking to you about it, I assume they’re talking to your fiance. I really don’t know what he can say, this is so far across the line that I don’t know how you deal with it but whatever he or you do say make they’restatements and look like/give across tone as if you thing they’re unhinged. Don’t give any flexibility (unless for instance you can occasionally attend) I mean he/you could say – Of course RZ will continue in her current role, she may attend some meetings with me if she has availability. And then do the ‘broken-record’ customer service thing where you don’t give any ground and repeat what you had said.

      1. Lizzy*

        She actually really can’t. They lived across the ocean from each other. Both of their jobs required them to be “on set”, so to speak, so one of them had to move. He couldn’t sell his house or anything, so she had to move there, and since her job wasn’t there, she had to quit.

      1. Lizzy*

        well… depends on which tabloids you read, and how much you like conspiracy theories.

          1. Lizzy*

            RZ = Rachel Zane, who is the character Meghan Markle played on “Suits”. Meghan is marrying Prince Harry tomorrow, of the British royal family. She had to quit her job because you can’t really have a job as a senior royal. The “owners” of the firm are the Queen and her husband Prince Phillip. The one who met the sticky end was Diana.

      2. only acting normal*

        No. Some people wanted something other than “horrible accident” to blame – which is a very normal human response, but the conspiracy theories got a bit out of hand.

        1. Thlayli*

          Given Diana chose to get into a car with a drunk driver and not wear a seatbelt, I don’t really get the whole conspiracy theory thing. Do they think the royals did mind control on her to prevent her putting on a seatbelt?

    25. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Dang….I am SLOW today! Maybe because it’s Friday. Good one, Snubble, you get the “On The Ball” prize today.

    26. RZ*

      It’s difficult for husband to be to get another job, it’s not the kind of firm you can leave easily. They are very old-fashioned, and it’s difficult to effect any change – control of the firm has been handed down from parent to child for centuries.

      (Seriously folks, I hope you’ll take it in the spirit it was meant).

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        His name is Henry, isn’t it? Be careful not to lose your head when you push back!

      2. Christmas Carol*

        Sure they’re old fashioned, but three of their most successful and long tenured CEOs were female.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          But the first only managed to hold on by refusing to have any kind of romance (acknowledged, anyway).

    28. Technical_Kitty*

      Okay, so, unless they are paying you, they have no say in your life. And them trying to interfere in your marriage in such a way is horrifying. Seriously.

      Talk to your husband to be, see what his take on it is. If he’s all “of course you won’t work” and you want to work RED FLAG. If he doesn’t agree with these people but is unwilling to push back his employer interfering in his marriage, RED FLAG. Disclaimer: I am not the marrying kind and am confused why people are so into it.

      If your hubs agrees with you, he may have to look for another job. It sounds like he SHOULD look for another job at any rate, the employer sounds like a nut.

      1. Lizzy*

        *Technically* they will be paying her, and *technically* she will have to work for the firm as well.

        Hubby-to-be does have the support of the lady who owns the firm. I believe she has learned from past mistakes (see “other wife who met sticky end”) and is a lot less strict about things, but there are still Rules and she definitely won’t be able to have the same career she used to.

        ;)

    29. Falling Diphthong*

      Based on the executives I know, this sounds completely bonkerballs. And that includes some whose wives engage in the occasional business dinner with their husbands’ clients with grace and elan. But not sacrificing their own careers to attend.

      Exception: If time travel is involved and he’s a 19th century college professor. Apparently it was pretty normal to suggest to young men entering the field that they marry someone so that they would have someone to handle the social sides of the job. It was like needing a car to be considered for some jobs.

    30. Piano Girl*

      I thoroughly enjoyed this question! I believe that her attention will shift towards the charitable work she is known for doing already. I wish them all the best!

      1. Canarian*

        I was having this conversation with some friends. What a luxury for someone with Meghan’s background (that is to say, as someone with a demonstrated commitment to charitable work not her personal/family background) to have the opportunity to fully devote her time to philanthropic and charitable efforts – from a position that will be significantly more influential than her current one!

        The whole “no jobs” thing could be a bummer to a lot of people, (and I would personally struggle with having to be non-political) but it’s not like she can’t pursue worthwhile efforts, just that she can’t be officially employed on their behalf.

    31. only acting normal*

      Props for using “the firm”. :-D

      For the uninitiated that’s what the Queen jokingly calls the Royal Family. (And essentially when you marry in, you are “being hired” to work for them).

    32. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Reading though, I love the people who clearly didn’t get the joke. :) Don’t worry, clueless ones, I’m one of you too! Just not this time. All the other times, yes.

    33. Kir Royale*

      In exchange for your career and privacy , you have access to unlimited wealth and media coverage. Worth the trade? Time will tell

    34. Someone whose first name (not middle name) is actually Meghan*

      Dear Rachel,

      You knew exactly what you were getting into. Expectations were clear from the start. You had no blinders on about the institution you are CHOOSING to marry into. No one is forcing you. If you don’t like it, you are free to walk away. Stop complaining.

        1. Someone whose first name (not middle name) is actually Meghan*

          So it is not weird for someone to post pretending to be Meghan Markle, but it is weird for someone to respond to them posting as Meghan Markle? Got it. I clearly should have known.

    35. #Blessed*

      This reminds me of a similar situation I knew of recently, but in that case the firm was not run by a husband and wife together, but solely by a woman. Her husband had a position in the company but it was honorary, like that of a non-voting board member, more or less.

      1. Lizzy*

        There was a scene in the PBS show “Victoria” where they were essentially describing their jobs to someone. Albert said that they run the company, and Victoria said “Actually, *I* run the company. He just handles the paperwork.”

    36. Batshua*

      Is it bad that my sarcastic response would be to say “No, because HE needs to come with ME on MY work trips!”?

      (Seriously, though, don’t do that. Push back in a non-sarcastic way.)

    37. steaming fury anon*

      This thread is about the royal wedding.

      I had to read the whole fcking thread to figure that out because I was so confused. I have never felt like my time has been more wasted on the Friday post, which I always feel is incredibly useful and interesting, up until this moment. I am incredibly pissed off.

      Do not reply to this thread telling me to chill out. I’m going to take a walk.

      1. Lizzy*

        Riiiiiiiiight… because the multiple references to Meghan Markle, the royals, the wedding, and the joke in general didn’t make you get it?
        A walk sounds like a good idea. No one forced you to read the thread.

      2. Lindsay J*

        Maybe you should seek some therapy for your anger issues.

        This is a disproportionate response to any post in any online community, but especially this one, which was clearly not done with ill intent.

    39. Zaphod Beeblebrox*

      Loving some of the comments on this thread.

      Hook, line, sinker, rod and copy of Angling Times.

    40. mentor*

      Will your husband’s job be in the 1950s? Seriously, WTF? That is PURE CRAZY.

      Was the previous wife murdered? Disappeared? Deeetails please!

  9. Susan K*

    I am an experienced teapot maker with over a decade of experience at two companies. Over the years, I have developed a particular interest and expertise in spouts, and I’ve long been considered the go-to person in my department for spout-related issues. Last year, I applied for an internal promotion to teapot spout designer, but an external candidate, Jane, was hired instead.

    While it stung to be passed over for something that I was well qualified for, I wasn’t terribly disappointed because it would have meant losing overtime pay by going from non-exempt to exempt. When Jane started, I was happy to help her get up to speed, and she has been very appreciative of my help. She does not have the same level of knowledge and experience that I have, though, and although she’s been here a while, she continues to lean on me a lot. It is part of the teapot makers’ job to support the teapot designers, but not normally to the extent that I’ve been helping Jane.

    I’m starting to get the sense that our managers don’t realize how much of the spout design work I’m doing. I don’t think Jane is lying about it, but maybe implying, or letting her manager assume, that she is doing the work that she is actually asking me to do and accepting credit for getting it done. I have to admit it bothers me that her manager probably thinks she’s doing a great job and that he made the right decision to hire her instead of me, when she would probably be struggling without my help. Plus, if I had gotten the job, I wouldn’t have had the benefit of having a teapot maker to help me because none of the other teapot makers know how to do most of what I help her with. Jane’s work is also taking time away from my other work, and while I’m still getting all my normal work done, I could be doing more if I weren’t spending so much time helping Jane.

    I don’t mind continuing to help Jane with spout design because I actually find it interesting, but I want to make sure I’m getting credit for all the work I’m doing. How can I bring this up without sounding like I’m criticizing or accusing Jane? I don’t want it to look as though I am just jealous of Jane because she got the job and I didn’t. Should I talk to my manager? Jane’s manager? Ask Jane herself if she has told her manager how much I’m helping her?

    1. Secretary*

      I think you should pull back on helping Jane do her job so much. I know you enjoy it, but you need to let Jane do her work because that’s what she’s being paid for.

      There’s good advice on that in this post:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2010/07/how-long-should-it-take-new-hire-to-get.html

      Here’s the steps I would take in the meantime:
      – Depending on how long it’s been, I would stop doing things FOR Jane and instead teach her how to do them or tell her where to get the info to learn how to do them. Transition her to the point where she asks you questions about how to do her job, and you say “The info on spout circumference is in the file that says ‘opening'” then go back to doing your work.
      – If you go to your manager, frame it like you’re trying to understand how much to be helping Jane, NOT that Jane is struggling. You want to come across graceful about having been passed over. You could say something like, “Bernice, I just wanted to check in with you on how much time I should continue to allocate to helping Jane. She’s been here for 8 weeks, and while I’m getting all my other work done I’m spending a lot of time helping her. How long do you want this to continue?”
      But don’t say it while hinting in a tone of your voice that you would be better for the job, say it like you are really wondering.

      1. Where's the Le-Toose?*

        I like this approach very much. As a manager myself, when we have new people in our office, I assume that the new employee is getting some help from their coworkers. However, how much help they are getting is usually a mystery until someone lets me know.

        In this instance, if the OP has a good manager, the manager will ask how much time OP is spending helping Jane. If I were to hear anything above a couple of hours a week, my eyebrows would be raised–not because of the OP’s assistance, but in the potential lack of Jane’s expertise. This opens the door for the manager to approach Jane, or if Jane has a different manager, to have OP’s manager take it up with Jane’s manager.

        OP, Secretary’s script opens the door for the dialog with your manager without it coming across as sour grapes. This is really good advice.

    2. my two cents*

      Maybe go about this in a round about way. Talk with your manager (maybe Jane’s ?) mention how much you would like to eventually be promoted to the spout design department. Ask for feedback about your interview and what you can do to improve your chances next opportunity. Mention how you have always been the go to person and have had the opportunity to help Jane with projects 1,2,3,4…. Keep detailed records, if anything you can put this on your resume. Perhaps by presenting things this way it will trigger those higher up to realize your not just someone with knowledge of this issue but you have an active hand in current projects.

    3. Denise*

      You’re being very emotionally mature about this. This seems like your best angle: “Jane’s work is also taking time away from my other work.” You could perhaps mention to your manager that you have been spending X amount of time with Jane working on spout design, and while you are happy to continue working with (or assisting) Jane in getting everything done, you’re finding that it is taking up a lot of your time and you want to know if they would like you to continue producing spout designs or focus more on tasks within your defined role.

      They will likely either have to then acknowledge your design contributions and give them their formal blessing or ask you to focus elsewhere, at which point you can decide if you want to explore other job opportunities that would enable you to focus on what you really enjoy. You could also be more direct and point out recent examples of your work and ask if they would like to alter your role to formally include spout design alongside Jane…but that might look like you are still gunning for her position.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I think you have to stop helping her. Part of the reason is that it gives you the sense of doing the work you enjoy, then reality strikes and you get reminded it’s not your job. It’s like being on a roller coaster, the high being doing the enjoyable work and the low is where you do not get recognition. Illusion vs. Reality. I think end the roller coaster ride.

  10. Burt's Knees*

    Friday Food Thread:
    In honor of Friday, and my universally mocked office breakfast of half a bagel slathered in cream cheese liberally covered in banana slices, what’s the weirdest snack you or your coworkers frequently eat?
    (please keep this non racist)

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      That bagel sounds awesome right now.

      One of my coworkers always brings interesting fruits and shares with us, so that’s a nice little bonus.

      I haven’t really seen anything “weird” but sometimes I feel weird that I bring my sandwiches in parts – I hate soggy, mushy bread and prefer to toast my bread before assembling my sandwich, so I have a bunch of little bags and containers with me all the time.

      1. Oxford Coma*

        I do this by wrapping the sandwich accordian-style in Saran wrap. Piece of bread, fold of wrap, piece of lettuce, fold of wrap, etc.

      2. Temperance*

        I do the same thing, although I typically bring all the sandwich pieces for the week at once. Death to soggy bread!

    2. Juney Junipero*

      Never tried it but the ardent internet love of peanut butter-pickle sandwiches does make me want to someday!

      2. Pickle Lover*

        I LOVE peanut butter pickle sandwiches! Get a good crusty bread, dill pickles, and crunchy peanut butter and you’re good to go

      4. Elizabeth West*

        Writer Chuck Wendig posted a sandwich on Twitter the other day–peanut butter, bacon, pickles, and mayo on sourdough bread. I tried it, and it is fantastic. I never would have thought. I’ve eaten two now and I can’t stop. (I used dill pickles because I don’t like sweet ones.)

        I love getting food ideas from people at work, so I tend to always peek at their lunches.

    3. anyone out there but me*

      Sounds delicious.

      My former coworker used to eat those freeze-dried vegetables that are supposed to be an alternative to potato chips. Okra, snap peas, green beans, whatever she could find. To my taste, it is like eating styrofoam. Yuck.

    4. Environmental Compliance*

      I once horrified a coworker that I was eating chocolate chip graham cracker teddy bears. I do not find teddy grahams that odd, but apparently they did. I don’t recall exactly what the problem was other than they just thought it was really, really weird that someone who wasn’t a toddler/didn’t have any toddlers would eat them.

      1. Pam*

        I was eating circus animal cookies (the pink and white ones) the other day. It’s important to get the Mother’s brand, as the store brands look more like circus blobs than actual animals.

      2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        I’ve been eating teddy grahams for years, and now that I do have a toddler, she has to ask me for them – I buy them for me!

        Also little fruit snack packages.

      3. WillWorkForLivingWage*

        I was eating goldfish and applesauce pouches all last week to get me through our busy season. Toddlers know where it’s at with easy to eat snacks.

      4. MMM*

        I do plenty of my shopping in what is labeled the “lunchbox” aisle, I just love kids snacks! (mainly teddy grahams and goldfish)

    5. Anon for this*

      I have a boss who’s obsessed with plain digestive biscuits. Not with tea or anything, not the ones with chocolate…just plain and dry. I’ve never understood that.

      Another example: Not in the type of food, but in the way he would eat lunch. Egg salad sandwich every day, but he wouldn’t move his hands to his mouth to eat. Instead, he would hold the sandwich and move his head down to take a bite. He ate fast, so it looked exactly like a chicken pecking for grain.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I have a co-worker who frequently disdains my perfectly normal vegetables. Anything with vegetables. I remind her that she doesn’t have to eat them, nor does she have to watch me eat them, so bye.

    7. Pollygrammer*

      Several coworkers dared each other to eat those cornstarch-based nontoxic packing peanuts once…

    8. epi*

      My boss usually has a supply of Trader Joe’s cookies that she keeps in her friend’s office so she doesn’t eat them all at once. If I’m having a rough day she’ll take me over there for cookies. I often see her eating a box of prepped fresh green beans and using a jar of dressing as a dip… Actually I think that’s a pretty good idea.

      I recently discovered that the grocery store near my office has acceptable lunch sushi, so lately my treat lunch has been a California roll, a single serve cottage cheese, and an iced coffee. I’m aware it’s a weird combination but I love it so much it’s how I bribe myself not to go out for lunch somewhere more expensive/unhealthy.

      1. Specialk9*

        Wide mouthed Mason jars are just the right size to hold an individual container of hummus at the top and still for the lid on. So I put veggies, pop hummus on, lid, lunch.

        1. Lora*

          Wide mouth mason jars make my lunch cooking much easier. Saw a YouTube about how to make noodle soup cups in wide mouth mason jars and I can make enough noodle soup cups for a whole week in 20 minutes: veggies, precooked shrimp, dashi flakes/granules, soy sauce, sesame oil, chopped green onion, bunch of cooked drained noodles. Half a hardboiled egg on top. 10 minutes before eating, fill the jar with hot water from the kettle and put the lid back on, then shake it up a bit to distribute the broth.

          Also, overnight oats in mason jars.

    9. BottleBlonde*

      At my last job I had a coworker who would have an eggplant for lunch about once a week. She would just bring in a raw eggplant, microwave it for like 10 minutes at lunchtime, and eat it just like that. Totally plain. I’m not an eggplant eater but that struck me as pretty odd regardless.

      1. Nita*

        That might actually be pretty good! I cook eggplant that way for chopping it into a salad, and I’m always nibbling on the skins while cleaning it – yum! Seems a bit messy for a lunch though.

    10. selina kyle*

      Related – I used to eat cashews fairly regularly at work – when my (amazing, wonderful) boss broke the news that she had accepted a position at another company, she brought me a 2lb jar of cashews to soften the blow.

    11. Phoenix Programmer*

      A coworker once brought Pop tarts to the office and was teased all day about being a child.

      1. Susan K*

        When we have all-day training sessions, the instructor supplies snacks, and Pop Tarts are always on the snack table. Sometimes, instructors will send out an e-mail in advance asking what flavors of Pop Tarts we want.

      2. A.*

        I used to bring hot pockets or lunchables to eat for lunch. I love nostalgic food but now I’m eating healthier so I stopped.

      4. KarenK*

        I love pop tarts. Blueberry pop tarts, slightly over-toasted so they’re dark around the edges. And Spaghetti Os with Chinese noodles or potato sticks mixed in and Parmesan cheese.

          1. Laura*

            My bf prefers plain, unfrosted blueberry poptarts as well. Walmart is the only place I can usually find them.

    12. WellRed*

      There is currently chocolate hummus in the office fridge. Chickpeas and chocolate. Who knew such a thing existed?

      1. SoCalHR*

        I’ve had this – its quite good. Especially with cinnamon or chocolate pita chips!

        1. Specialk9*

          It’s delicious. Boars Head brand, right? It’s incredible.

          I also like Banza chickpea pasta.

      2. Nessun*

        Oh, that can be awesome! There’s a local company owned by two nutritionists that sells chickpeas with different things (chocolate, peanut butter, nuts) – they do single servings and sell at the farmer’s market, and it is excellent stuff!!

    13. SoCalHR*

      Why is your bagel being mocked, that seems really normal for me (except for maybe the high carb content?).
      Anyway, my old roommate had a coworker who, every morning, would microwave a baked potato in the work microwave, housed in one of those envelopes with the little clear plastic window in them. To my knowledge he still does it, every morning.

      1. Burt's Knees*

        People seem to think that putting a banana on top of the cream cheese and bagel is weird. Everywhere I’ve worked people are weirded out by it! I think it’s delicious.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          That’s only because it’s unusual and people are ridiculous about anything they’re not used to seeing. If they get on your case about it, remind them that cream cheese can be sweet too, like in frosting, and they should just shut up. (OK, maybe that’s too direct.)

          I like to eat plain yogurt and salsa with a spoon and people get all “Ew!” on me, as if tortilla chips are the only thing between that and “normal”.

          There are TWO things one may say when seeing another’s food: “That looks/smells delicious!” or, “OK, thank you for the suggestion, I’m getting the same thing for lunch tomorrow.”

          1. Burt's Knees*

            I love eating salsa with a spoon! Honestly, it’s healthier! You are taking out a completely unnecessary chip.

    14. Susan K*

      I used to have a coworker who loved bell peppers, and she would eat a whole bell pepper as a snack. She would just bite right into it the way people eat apples. She didn’t cut it up or eat it with dip or anything — just the plain bell pepper.

      1. TurquoiseCow*

        Oh, like the Chairman in the original Japanese Iron Chef. He would open each episode by dramatically biting into a bell pepper. I think it was yellow? I like bell peppers, but that struck me as odd.

        My husband has an aversion to peppers – it’s a texture thing for him. He was definitely a bit unnerved when I showed him an episode of the show.

      2. Branzino*

        I’ve never bitten into one like an apple, but I do enjoy just plain bell peppers. A little salt is all they need. They’re delicious.

      1. You don't know me*

        I have a fairly private cubicle but one day someone stopped by just as I dug my spoon into the jar of peanut butter I keep in my desk. We both laughed and I joked that at least it wasn’t 5 seconds later when that spoon would have been in my mouth.

        1. MissMaple*

          Ha, I do this too! This is actually an on-going discussion between my husband, myself, and another couple. Can I ask which part of the country you’re from? Both mid-western-raised wives are huge fans of the peanut butter on a spoon as a snack and both husbands, mid-Atlantic origins, think we’re crazy :)

          1. Teapot librarian (and recovering lawyer)*

            Mid-Atlantic raised and current, college in the midwest.

          2. BlueWolf*

            Haha, I’ve been known to eat peanut butter from the spoon. I don’t do it often, but if there’s no other snack things in the house I definitely do it. I’m from the Midwest too, so maybe you’re onto something there…

    16. NewBoss2016*

      I had a co-worker that used to microwave fresh kale to snack on. It had a very strong urea scent when microwaved for some reason. One day our boss started pacing around the breakroom asking everyone who entered if they thought someone had urinated in there. She was mortified and never brought Kale again.
      Sometimes I get a can of olives and eat them out of the can with a fork. People think that is super weird.

      1. Juney Junipero*

        Saw someone doing that in the gym locker room once and, not gonna lie, thought it was weird. Maybe the context + food item combo influenced my perception in that case, though.

    17. Nita*

      I have a long list :) Homemade fish paste sandwiches (canned salmon + lemon juice + capers), dried seaweed snacks, sliced radish, corn on the cob (packing THAT was not my idea, but it’s surprisingly not messy), and last but not least, Little Debbie snack cakes (no one seems to eat these any more!) That’s nothing compared to what I eat at home though… pregnancy really does weird things to one’s tastes.

    18. Aphrodite*

      I have always liked Triscuit crackers with a smear of peanut butter, a bit of salt, and a hamburger dill pickle slice on top of that. It’s tasty. Really.

    19. Temperance*

      I used to work with a woman who microwaved some sort of fish for breakfast. She was a damn monster. lol

    20. Irene Adler*

      I’m gonna need to try that. Never thought about banana w/the cream cheese going together. Thank you!

    21. straws*

      I used to bring in a cucumber and a candy bar every morning for breakfast, and sometimes I’ll eat a can of black olives as a snack.

      1. NewBoss2016*

        I posted about the olives above, too! Glad to know I am not the only one. People at my office think it is really strange for some reason.

        1. Specialk9*

          My toddler eats a pack of olives every day. He thinks it’s normal, and it’s easy for me! I think there’s like 10 olives in there. (I loathe olives, but not my lunch.)

        2. straws*

          I missed that somehow! Same here – straight out of the can with a fork. Quick and easy. People think I’m weird for it, but they do benefit from my keeping a can opener in my drawer. Also, people think I’m weird for plenty of reasons, so it’s kind of like a drop in the bucket.

    22. Veg lover*

      My coworker is vegan but also a 20 something young man and an athlete. He regularly brings in a salad for his lunch in a large glass mixing bowl. Today he has a 2 quart pyrex bowl of rice and beans – his salad bowl is probably 3-4 quarts. Vegetable consumption goals!!

    23. Nashira*

      I really like fruit dipped in hummus that I’ve spiked with hot sauce. Blackberries are best, followed by mangos, oranges and then apples.

      1. Burt's Knees*

        I get a free lunch every day at work that come from a rotating list of local restaurans, and it’s VERY important to me that I am at max capacity to enjoy it.

    25. Canarian*

      I did not know that resealable pouches full of peeled, hard-boiled eggs were a thing you could buy until I had a coworker who would walk around the office with a bag, chowing down as he walked around and talked to people. The memory still makes me a little nauseated

    26. NorCalifHR*

      Most unusual in the office today: hot cinnamon raisin bread toast, slathered with cream cheese and topped with drained shredded pineapple, with a 50/50 mix of blood orange juice and diet 7-up as the accompaning beverage. Have to say the toasting bread made everyone hungry!

    27. Emily S.*

      One of my coworkers regularly brings in GIANT plastic containers full of fruit, such as grapes, to snack on throughout the day.

      It wouldn’t be strange if it was, say, a small baggie, but it’s one of those huge containers that you might bring to a large potluck.

    28. aes_sidhe*

      Everyone thinks I’m weird for eating applesauce on zesta saltine crackers. The weirdest snack I’ve seen is my mom’s mayo, grape jelly, and sliced block cheddar cheese sandwich.

    29. Becky*

      I don’t know if it is weird, but I keep a box of Corn Flakes in my desk to snack on.

    30. Notorious GMB*

      My girlfriend has a weird snack. Oh, it’s so cute. She’ll sometimes take a little pack of mayonnaise, and she’ll squirt it in her mouth all over, and then she’ll take an egg and kind of mash it in her mouth. She calls it a “mayonegg.”

      You okay?

    31. Trillion*

      That bagel sounds amazing.

      I didn’t realize how often I brought hummus and veggies to work until someone commented that they thing that’s all I ever eat, ever.

      I’m literally 100 lbs overweight, silly. I’d be skinny and gorgeous if that’s all I ate.

    32. Ladylike*

      For some reason, it grosses me out when people reuse water bottles to bring milk to work. In every place I’ve ever worked, there are water bottles full of milk in the shared fridge. I don’t know why it bothers me – there’s nothing wrong with it. It’s jusg a weird quirk of mine. Maybe because I’m not a milk fan.

  11. Anon for this*

    So, my boss sent me an email today basically asking for a one-on-one feedback session because he hates my writing. Well, the way he put it was that we needed to talk about the “tone” of our communications because he hasn’t been able to be as involved (aka hovering over my shoulder as I type or editing social media posts after they’ve been posted), sent me an inspirational youtube video to watch and said how “valuable” I was to the team. It read like something out of a “management for dummies” book.

    We’ve had these before. They basically amount to him saying that our communications need to “sound cooler” without defining what “cool” means to him or providing any specific feedback. I’ve created a communications style guide, a “words we do and don’t use” cheat sheet, multiple strategy documents and tried everything to provide a clear communications framework. It never seems to stick or work. I’ve even tested him with his own writing. I’ll take an old approved piece of copy, change the names/nouns involved to suit the new subject matter and send it to him for approval. 99.9% of the time it comes back covered in edits. Similar text sent again a week after including those edits? Totally covered in edits again, often with changes that contradict last week’s changes. I just don’t know what to do anymore.

    I’ve basically reached the conclusion that it’s not about anything I do or don’t write. It’s just about his personal feelings about me. He doesn’t seem to like me or think I’m cool enough. He’s made cracks about my appearance before and has been something of a passive bully. The bigger problem? I’m feeling so demoralized by it all that I just don’t even try anymore. I view myself as the “first-draft” generator who’s responsible for getting the facts barfed onto the page, but not much else. Why should I try to make things sound good when my boss just eviscerates everything I write anyways, no matter how hard I try? I’ve worked at other organizations in high-level communications positions and I’ve never had this sort of reaction before. I’ve had bosses who’ve had really specific, counterintuitive style requirements and I’ve always been able to make them happy. I’ve been here for two years now. Shouldn’t I be feeling confident in my job responsibilities? Shouldn’t we have moved past this by now? Shouldn’t I feel like I “get” him by now?

    My work days are mostly spent fighting back tears, crying in the bathroom, sitting at my computer in a numb daze, or getting so angry that I feel like flinging my work product into the sun. I’m really tempted to email him back one of the following:

    1) A video of the Spice Girls singing “Tell me what you want” on a loop for 10 hours.
    2) Nedry’s “Ah Ah Ah” gif from Jurassic Park.
    3) Just a simple “No.”

    Thoughts?

    1. Administrator excellante*

      I’ve been where you are. I’ve spent the last decade (oh God, it’s been that long) working for lawyers who will ALWAYS find some mistake (real or otherwise) on my work and have me do it again. My old boss use to circle random paragraphs on settlement demands and the write FONT??? next to it. Like, dude, it’s the same font as the rest of the document. But I would just smile and say “I’ll check on it!” and then go about my day. The only advice I have is to embrace it. Recognize that most times you’ll need to do things twice and just build it into your day. Don’t rush to get things done, create some down time into your day where you can decompress and get some distance (if this is possible where you are). And you know that it’s not personal, so remember not to take it personally. Oh, and start looking around for another job.

      1. Rookie Manager*

        I know of someone who was given a homework assignment to accurately punctuate an excerpt. They recognised the story/characters so located the original text and copied the punctuation. The teacher disagreed with their work and failed the assignment.

        With some people you are never going to ‘win’. (Where win equals do it right without their corrections)

        1. I edit everything*

          Speaking as an editor, I don’t find this at all surprising. First, errors make it into published work all the freaking time. Second, many supposed “rules” of punctuation and sentence construction are extremely subjective. So assuming the teacher wasn’t using the published text as the answer key, it’s completely likely she’d come up with something different. Enough to fail the assignment, though? That’s more surprising.

          1. Jules the Third*

            Depends on the comma usage. I’m an Oxford Comma girl, and I failed a couple of papers because the teacher cut 3 – 5 points per ‘extra’ ‘unnecessary’ comma.

    2. long time lurker*

      You need a new job. I’m sorry. But this dynamic isn’t going to change. It’s not about the quality of your work, it’s about your boss wanting to have this particular power over you and wanting to make you feel small and keep you ‘in your place’, and no matter what you do, you won’t satisfy him. He will always come up with a reason why he’s unsatisfied. You said yourself that you’ve done excellent work at other orgs and never had these problems: that’s because the problem is him, not you.

      It may be because he’s intimidated or jealous, or maybe he’s just an asshole. But ultimately it doesn’t matter what his issue is. You need to get out ASAP. This won’t get better and it will keep damaging your confidence until you leave.

      Signed,
      Someone who’s been there, twice.

        1. Recovering perfectionist*

          Oh god yes, this.
          My last job was like this. My boss and I started around the same time, and every article or written piece I would submit would disappear for 3-6 weeks because it “needed work,” and then come back destroyed. (This was after 10 years of communications/reporting work, having never received similar feedback.) After six months on the job, I started phoning it in, throwing words on a page and knowing they’d be torn apart. It was just as I was leaving for my honeymoon that my boss asked “Just HOW do you write these?” And “I’m starting to suspect you’re not a good writer.”

          After spending much of my trip in tears, I came back and started looking for a new job immediately. My confidence was wrecked, and it took leaving that position to help me remember that I’m actually effective. It took another six months (and the boss fawning all over me to stay — definitely some personality issues there) to find a new job, but in my first week at my current position, I wrote a piece and handed it in, and my boss said “Oh, just post it.” (Me: TO THE INTERNET? WHERE EVERYONE CAN SEE?!) She had full trust in her hire, and I am still so grateful.

          Getting out of that situation helped me shake out so many of the demons who told me I was incapable. Please, please do the same for your brain.

    3. Boy oh boy*

      4) A video of the Spice Girls singing “Goodbye” after you find another job.

      I’m really sorry your boss is so impossible.

    4. TGIF*

      My only thought is to get out! Sounds like a very micro-managing boss who is never going to give up this fight. Job search and GET OUT!

      1. Det. Charles Boyle*

        Start looking for another job, because this isn’t going to change. I’m sorry you’re having to go through this. Good luck to you!!

    5. Susan K*

      Wow, that’s awful, and it is completely understandable that you are feeling so demoralized. This is a case where your boss is an ass and isn’t going to change. He’s giving feedback that’s so vague that you can’t act on it, and measuring your performance so subjectively that you can’t refute it. I almost wonder if he’s setting you up to be fired. I know getting a new job is easier said than done, but I hope you can get out of there soon.

    6. MuseumChick*

      This sounds like a case of “Your boss sucks and it isn’t going to change”.

      I’m sure you have tried this but the only thing I can think (aside from getting a new job) is to, in a professional tone say “I’m having trouble understanding what we mean here by “cool”. For example, back in (month) we made a post that read (what it was), but last week when I crafted a similar post, it wasn’t approved. Could you give me some examples of how we should be crafting our posts?”

      *whatever bullshit he says*

      “Ok, from what you say I’m getting that we should *repeat his BS back to him* is that correct?

      1. Workerbee*

        This! It can at least give you some internal satisfaction even if you know that the asshole is going to stay being an asshole.

        I had a boss who would do pretty much what you have in your example. I was getting so confused/demoralized by week after week of her saying, “No, this isn’t how I want you to write it!” after I’d copy the same tone and style of what she had approved and then applauded the previous week, that I started keeping examples.

        When I brought these up to her, and said how I’m unsure how to proceed because when she said to do X and I did X, now she’s saying No, it should be Y, she denied that she’d ever said anything like that or was behaving like that.

        What with this constancy and other bait’n’switch routines, I was so gaslit by the end of that job that I almost lost the next job I had immediately after, because I doubted my own abilities that much. I was meanly glad I learned that that boss was fired at some point after I’d left, but she resurfaced in yet another high-paying, high-powered job in another company. Sometimes I think there’s just a special type of compensation for people like that.

        1. Not a Morning Person*

          Ditto for me and a former boss. I had a long history in the role and with coworkers and other managers, and when I was at the point that I couldn’t deal with the boss’s crazy, changing, outrageous expectations any longer, I went to a few of those managers and asked for help with references and finding another job.
          Unbeknownst to me, they individually went to bat for me and things started rolling behind the scenes. I was applying for jobs and getting interviews, but then boss’s role was changed and eventually she ended up moving to a different department. I was sort of fortunate in that I had many people working on my behalf that I didn’t know about till much, much later, but I still ended up leaving a year or so later on. Even after having so many people working to keep me, getting out was the thing that worked.

    7. LKW*

      Sadly I’ve had to say this (IRL) to people:

      Crying at or because of your job is a really clear sign that this is not the right job for you*. That’s not to say the work isn’t right -but rather, the environment is toxic and it’s time to leave.

      *Exceptions for actors, professional mourners and those who deal with difficult situations like oncology, etc.

      1. Windchime*

        Yes, this is very true, according to my sample size of one (1). Case in point: Last job I cried all the time due to a gas lighting boss who was never satisfied and constantly lied. Current job? 18 months and no tears. Because the environment is not toxic and my boss isn’t a cruel liar.

      2. Em*

        Seriously, I had a job where one of the higher ups changed and we ended up having a spot in our office where the person directly under her could come and cry without being seen.
        That was my first office job and I don’t know what happened after I left, but before I left, the head of the department (who was also new but seemed pretty competent and with it) called me in for a talk (any comments/concerns kind of thing) and I told her about it.

    8. Specialk9*

      COOL?! One doesn’t hire adults to be COOL, unless they’re brand ambassadors or stylists. What a dipweed.

      1. zora*

        Cool is not actionable. If someone uses that word as THE descriptor of marketing copy, they don’t know what they are doing.

        OP, you need to emotionally detach. Search past posts for those words, because we’ve talked about it here a lot. You have to learn how to not care what he says and take it personally, and keep your own self worth separate from what your boss says/does. It is hard, but it is a skill and it gets easier with practice.

        And get out. Even if your boss isn’t doing it on purpose, he is completely clueless and there is no way that continuing to work there will benefit you in any way. I made the same mistake and stayed too long thinking that it was something wrong with me, and I emotionally damaged myself so badly that I have needed years of therapy to get over it. Find a therapist immediately, and start working on a strategy to get a new job. You are probably a BRILLIANT communications person, but you need to work for someone who actually understands what they are doing and how to articulate brand voice and guidelines.

        1. Not a Morning Person*

          +1 to finding a counselor or therapist. This type of treatment damages your confidence and it’s hard to overcome on your own. You absolutely can overcome it, but it will take a lot longer. Having someone on your side who can help you re-calibrate your views on what is crazy and what is normal will be valuable to you and save you much heartache.

    9. The OG Anonsie*

      Boy if it weren’t for that last bit, I’d think I knew the guy.

      Make no mistake, some people give feedback extremely impulsively. That means there’s no consistency and very little predictability to it. It also means there’s no amount of actual efforts that can prevent it– it’s just going to be the way it is.

      How I dealt with this at OldJob when I had to work with a guy like this, I just decided I get paid no matter what. Third round of red ink on a draft? Whatever. I get the same pay and the same bennies whether the final product that goes out has been picked to pieces or not. I started just assuming I was sending, as you say, a first draft that he would finish (eventually…) and stopped trying to perfect them since it didn’t make a difference. It’s accepting, at that point, that really what’s going to go out is a random set of preferences from this guy and it’s basically got nothing to do with me. That at least made me stop being angry about it all the time.

    10. Ann O.*

      It sounds like there’s a mismatch of expectations. If you’ve previously had primary authority over your writing, it’s going to be hard to have someone take that from you. But if your boss wants to edit, has strong feelings about the output, and has primary authority, then you are in a role where you are functionally the first draft generator and he is the editor.

      Your boss sounds like an a-hole in a lot of ways, so sight unseen, I’m going to guess that he’s probably not improving the writing. But the job roles are what they are. So the main question for you is whether you can adjust your expectations and be okay in this role–which will mean being emotionally detached from the edits–or whether this is simply a mismatch and you need to leave.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      The first problem I see is that YOU wrote the communications style guide. HE should have written it, not you.

      So you are crying at work alternating with heavy anger. This means that you have nothing left to lose and you do have some freedom here. It can’t get worse, short of being fired, it’s already hell for you. I assume you want to stay or have to stay, so, consider one of these ideas:

      1) Point out to him that tone has very little to do with punctuation and other grammar points. Correcting commas is not going to change how the writing sounds. Ask him for a sample or two of tone that he likes. We cannot learn what to do if we do not see it. Ask him for samples of the goal he has in mind.

      2)Bring the style guide in, tell him that it’s not working and ask him to create a style guide that will work.

      3) No one can work for a person who says, “Always do ABC” one week and the following week says, “Never do ABC”. The employee can never be right. What I have done with this type of boss is repeat back to him what he says. “So Boss, you are saying always do ABC, right?” Of course he will agree. Next week when he tells you never to do ABC, then you say, “Boss last week you said to DO ABC, I repeated it back to you to make sure I understood. It does not matter which way I do this but I want to get it right each time, every time. So where do we land with this? ABC yes? or ABC no?”

      4) The test pieces you have done: Make a copy of his then a copy of your work where you mimicked his work. Put them side by side and ask him how you missed the boat.

      This is very hard stuff to do. It helped me to realize that the boss could not kick me down lower than I was. It was either talk to them or walk out the door.

      In the long run it did cut the BS in half. But even half of the BS was too much.

    2. Hermione*

      In higher education administration: Depending on the time of the year, anywhere between 60 and 180, I’d guess. Maybe sometimes even as low as 40. Most aren’t actionable, though.

    3. Annie Moose*

      Several hundred useless error messages that are immediately archived. Aside from that, probably an average of two.

    5. Snubble*

      Thirty-ish, not including batches of automated out-of-office replies when I send a mass email out.

    6. Brownie*

      In IT and my inbox is usually between 75-100 per day (a 30 email day is considered highly abnormal), the vast majority of which need to be read and only about 10% need to be acted on. Haven’t kept track of how many are automatically filed and so don’t get counted, but I’d guess another 30 or so do that. My grand-boss gets between 300 and 400 per day and regularly talks about how his job is nothing but attending meetings and reading emails.

    7. Environmental Compliance*

      Last job in public health: 100+ per day, with at least 30 voicemails when I got into work at 7:30AM.

      Current job in private sector: maybe 5-25 per day, and it’ll surprise me to have a single voicemail.

    8. Yams*

      Between 100-200. It’s hell. I have no idea how to manage the volume and reply in a timely fashion to everything. I just got promoted into this position and I’m a little overwhelmed #panic

      1. Jules the Third*

        100 – 200 here. The key is triage and your preview pane. Each morning, spend 10 minutes moving dreck to folders, so that if it’s not really dreck you can search for it. Dreck = automated emails with no actions; every email in a chain except the last one, that kind of thing.

        Then 20 minutes answering the easy ones. Depending on your job, 30 minutes answering more.

        Then do other work until lunch. After lunch, 30 – 60 minutes dealing with email.
        Then do other work until an hour before you go home. Clean up the email box the last hour.

        A *ton* of email will come through and other people will be the ones needing to do actions. You can, early days, make notes of which ones you think you’ll need to step in on eventually. Long term, you’ll be able to look at them and know.

        A *ton* of emails will come through and be FYI. Read, briefly. Don’t respond just to say thanks. With my new coworker, I now get about 20 ‘Thanks!’ (and NOTHING ELSE) emails cc’d or straight to me daily. UGH. But she’s the kind of person who needs that feedback or she feels that we all hate her, so I use the preview to see if it’s just one of those, and make a point of sending her one or two ‘thanks!’ per week. Soft skills, we hates them, my precious.

        Keep some kind of tickler file for things you *think* you will need to take action on, and in six months, take a couple of hours to review how often you were right. That will help you calibrate the ‘dreck’ sort.

        1. Yams*

          This is actually amazing advice on how to deal with the unholy mess that is my inbox. I am literally printing this out and gluing it to my dashboard . Thank you so very much!

    10. Catalyst*

      100+ But I should note that I am cc’d on many things that I don’t even look at, it comes to me basically to prove that someone is keeping up on it.

    11. ThatGirl*

      Well, part of my job is answering consumer emails, so… 20-50 depending on the day and time of year.

    13. Libby*

      Between 10-20, occasionally 30. At my previous job it was around 100 per day, so this is a nice change.

    15. beanie beans*

      This does not answer your question, but is a funny sidetrack.

      This week a coworker came by my desk and noticed I had maybe 10 emails from that day in my inbox. He said wow, you don’t nearly as many emails as I do. How do you pull that off? I said I get a lot more than are in my inbox, I just delete or file away as I go, and I read them throughout the day. The look on his face was like he had never heard of anyone managing their inbox like that.

    18. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      Around 80-100, of which 20-25 or so are my responsibility to respond to.

    19. Red Reader*

      20 or less most days. Sometimes more if our management team starts conversing by email, but usually we do that via Jabber instead.

      I’ve been here going on four years next month and I don’t think I’ve ever even set up my voicemail.

    20. Susan Sto Helit*

      Generally fewer than 10, unless a discussion is going on over email. Stuff with my immediate team I tend to just deal with in-person (I know not everyone likes that, but it works for me).

      A good friend of mine had to quit a position a couple of years ago because her boss was sending her around 250 emails a day (mostly of the forwarding on, can-you-take-care-of-this type, minus any of the instructions/context needed to actually take care of it), on top of her actual workload. She eventually managed to negotiate 6 weeks pay from the HR department and an agreement that she would just leave that day and not come back again. She’s my hero.

    21. Tau*

      I was about to say 0-1, but then I remembered how many automated e-mails I get from Github and JIRA for status changes and the like. That probably puts it closer to 10-20, although I can ignore almost all of them.

      Basically, I’m in a tech team where we use Slack for roughly 99% of our communication. It’s great.

    24. Is This How We End Up On 20/20?*

      Less than 20. It’s batty since I’m from a background of hundreds.

    25. Lizzy*

      Depends on the time of year. Right now, I’m not so busy, so I’ll get around 50-75 per day. During the winter, I easily get 200+ emails a day.

    26. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      10-20 per day that I need to respond to. 50+ that are not for me.

    28. TurquoiseCow*

      Addressed to me, not that many – maybe five or ten on a busy day? But I’m on a couple of mailing lists (that I don’t really need to be on) and those bump the total count to 50-100. Thankfully, I have them going into folders so I can safely ignore them. :)

    29. JHunz*

      About 150, but only between 5-20 are actually from people and potentially need a response. The rest are all automated notifications.

    30. A (former) Cad Monkey*

      At my previous job, depending upon the project I was on, I literally received 1 singular email all week. A standard week for me was 10-20 though.

    31. Cedrus Libani*

      Usually 20-ish, including a few all-site logistics mails / corporate newsletters / etc.

      I work in data science. After every few hours of work, we send an update to the handful of people also working on the project…so, 2-3 emails, per coworker, per day. If it’s going to require more than one email, we mostly just talk to each other.

    32. Becky*

      Well stuff that lands in my inbox is usually 10-15 emails per day, but I have rules for putting certain automated emails in other folders and those can be anywhere from 10 to 50+ per day depending on if something is broken in our builds or if my developers are particularly productive.

    33. SparklingStars*

      No more than 30. My supervisor gets at least 300. I’m so happy I’m not in management!

    34. Trillion*

      I don’t exactly know how many I get, but I respond to 75-125 a day. About a quarter of those are rote responses where I copy/paste a response after completing a small task.

    35. Windchime*

      Probably around 50, but most of them are automatic notifications (“table X has been loaded”) and go into folders. I really probably only have 10 or 12 emails a day that I need to look at and respond to.

  13. AnAnonLibrarian*

    I need help from other folks with anxiety and depression. I have a phone interview and I am trying to get psyched up for it, but I’m also in the midst of a depressive episode. I’m seeing a therapist and working on getting meds adjusted, so that’s being dealt with, but I don’t think I’ll feel “better” by the time of the interview.

    Any advice for psyching yourself up and convinivng yourself that you are qualified and competent when you feel like you’re not at all?

    (And I am qualified, I know that. I just can’t seem to convince Jerk Brain that this is the case.)

    1. SoSo*

      I find that it’s easier to combat that type of anxiety by making a hard list of all my qualifications achievements. Seeing it written down in front of me makes it feel more “real” and less easy to disregard.

      1. Razilynn*

        Yes! I do this to. Combat the “I’m not good enough” feeling with concrete evidence. Write down all your skills, projects you’ve worked on, programs you’ve used, etc. Since you said you have an interview coming up, I would recommend thinking about or searching online for “difficult questions” you might be asked: Tell me about a time you failed and what you learned; Tell me about a time where you had a conflict with a co-worker and how you responded; How many basketballs do you think would fit in this room? Write a few guiding words/sentences down and then practice your responses out loud.

        And for the list of “accomplishments” I sometimes add in some every-day life ones: I held the door open for that woman that’s sometimes mean to me; I didn’t flip off that guy that almost hit me because he was on his phone; I cleaned up the kitchen today even though I asked my husband to do it last night. Sometimes adding up the “little things” can increase your confidence, even if just for a little while.

    2. SparklingStars*

      Sometimes when this has happened to me I’ve had success with pretending that I’m a different person (a friend or acquaintance who is more self-confident/less anxious/etc.), or that I’m playing a role in a play or something. However, this depends on how severe the depression is at the time.

      1. katkat*

        I was going to suggest the same thing. It has helped me before to try thinking of someone I admire or someone that would be great for this job, and act just like I think they would act in the interview (using my own experiences, strengths, etc. of course).
        Another thing that helps is to write down any answers you think you might be asked. For example, if they might ask “tell me a time when you solved a difficult problem” It can be really easy in a depressive state to have a hard time thinking of something you’ve done well. So, if you have it written down, you won’t have to search your brain for examples to convice the interviewer you’re qualified, while also struggling internally to convince your own self that you’re qualified.

      2. Smolfox*

        Definitely this ^. I pretend to be completely different. For some reason if I tell myself that I don’t really care about the end result, I can be a lot more natural and optimistic and have less anxiety.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Go for a walk when you feel your worst. You’ll have to force yourself… and that’s not easy! But even a walk around the block will distract your jerkbrain and get your blood moving a bit.

      Hang in there. <3

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      The mindset that I’ve found most helpful is to mentally divorce the interview from anything that comes after it — to look at it as an event in itself, in which I will present myself in my own best light, and if that is what the interviewer is looking for… well, then great. But I try to convince my gut that the interview and my continued employment really have nothing to do with each other. It sounds weird, but it makes me feel much less pressured, and I’m able to act much more naturally.

    5. Schnoodle*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. When I was in my depression, I’d get the interviews but not the final offer. Once my head was cleared with a variety of changes, I got the job I interviewed for.

      It’s hard. I wish you the best of luck and a clear mind.

    6. Spooky*

      Oh, I struggle with this too! A few things have helped me:

      1) Do 2-minute “flash” exercises before big things. Even something like 30 seconds of jumping jacks can make a surprisingly big difference. You can do those or run in place for a very short period a few minutes before your interview and it will help perk you up a bit.
      2) Do something productive before the standard work day starts. I am much more productive in the morning, but the daily grind of breakfast, shower, commute etc eats away at it to the point that I’m in a low point before I get to work. But I’ve found that if I go to bed earlier and wake up at 5:30 AM, I can get a ton of stuff done before I leave the apartment, which makes me feel incredibly productive and accomplished for the rest of the day. It also helps to break up your regular routine. It’s a very hard schedule to sustain, but for me, productivity begets productivity. So for the morning of your interview, I’d try getting up early and doing three set tasks, preferably ones that are easy to accomplish like paying bills or starting a load of laundry.
      3) Load up on protein. Protein really helps me, so I find ways to add it to everything, like stirring a big scoop into my morning oatmeal.
      4) Try some over-the-counter riboflavin. My doctor recommended this to me. YMMV, but it makes me feel a lot more “up.” Side note though, it does turn your urine florescent yellow.

      I hope that helps!

        1. Specialk9*

          You can also stir in an egg in the last minute of cooking – it makes the oatmeal fluffy and protein laden.

    7. Really?*

      This is probably weird but I’ve found lots of youtube hypnotism videos actually really helpful – there are ones to relax specifically for job interviews, and also ones about self-doubt and depression. You have to try a few to find something you like. But I found them good to calm my nerves and also just to be relaxed, so may help just before telephone interview.

    8. Temperance*

      Not sure if this is helpful, but instead of trying to force the belief, I roleplay what a confident, cool person would do in a given situation, and it seems to work. For instance, I was able to pull this off and get elected to a nonprofit board position.

    9. Jadelyn*

      Tbh, the best I can say is just acknowledge that jerkbrain is never going to believe you – but that’s okay, because jerkbrain isn’t the one you’re trying to convince. The hiring manager is.

      This is going to make me sound very weird, but…well, here goes. I’ve had pretty good success with literally personifying my intrusive thoughts/brainweasels/jerkbrain/whatever you wanna call it. His name is Jackson and he’s a very annoying 14-year-old boy who plays too much Call of Duty and thinks calling people slurs is funny. (He may or may not be modeled off of a few 14 year olds I have known.) It’s oddly satisfying to be able to roll my eyes and mutter “Shut up, Jackson, you’re not as funny as you think you are. Go lose another round of COD or something and leave me alone.” when my brainweasels start mocking me and telling me how awful I am at everything forever.

      I also keep a “nice things” folder on my computer/in my phone. I screenshot or copy emails or text messages where people are praising me for stuff or thanking me for doing something really well for them, and when I need to remind myself that I am not the worst human being ever to human, I go back and reread them to remind myself that other people think I’m smart and competent and worthwhile. For example, I just pulled up my “nice things” folder in Outlook on my work computer. The top thing is an email from the EVP of the organization, who I had done some quick-turnaround analysis work for in April. She replied “This is spot on, Jadelyn. Thanks for the quick work.” Below that is an email string when we were having trouble with a pay code in the system not working correctly, where I did research and finally figured out what was wrong in the configuration; I sent screenshots to our payroll admin and cc’d my boss and our VP so they’d be kept in the loop on what I’d changed in the system. My boss replied, “Brilliant!” and the VP replied to her “Isn’t she though?”

      So it’s stuff like that, which helps remind me that I am actually capable of doing well and people outside of my terrible garbage brain recognize that. When my brain is being a dumpster fire, I can basically “borrow” other people’s perceptions of me and lean on those for confidence for awhile.

      1. zora*

        Actually, I love this technique. I’m totally going to try it. Thanks for sharing!!

    10. I edit everything*

      Do you have any old performance reviews that say great things about you that you can reread? I’ve bookmarked a blog post that’s very complimentary of my work, and when I’m feeling low, I go back and read it.

      Short term, immediately before your interview, go take a walk–a little exercise and fresh air are good for the brain. Also, be sure you’re hydrated. When my depression kicks in, the first thing I do is get a drink of water, and it always helps at least a little bit.

    11. FirstTimeCaller*

      This might sound silly, but I run through my talking points while standing in a power pose (arms and legs away from your body). For me, that means standing like Wonder Woman (legs shoulder width apart, hands on waist, elbows out). I struggle with anxiety and depression, and there’s just something about standing like a super hero, up against the world, that makes me feel in total control of myself.

      For more on power poses: https://www.inc.com/business-insider/amy-cuddy-the-poses-that-will-boost-your-confidence.html

    12. Batshua*

      This may not work for you, but it sometimes works for me:

      I tell myself I suck, I’m terrible, and that I’m not qualified enough. Then, I get pissed at me for being so mean and prove me wrong by listing all the things I’m good at, whether or not they’re relevant to the situation.

      The righteous indignation seems to really help?

    13. WolfPack Inspirer*

      Hello from the trenches. I’m in a deep funk now too and it’s hard to project confidence and competence when all I want is to curl up in bed and not be. Ahem. So I feel you.

      I focus on the facts as much as possible. In my past work I DID x y and z. It doesn’t matter how I feel about them, I DID them, and they are objective accomplishments that I can reference even if my brain is screaming bullshit from the sidelines.

      Exercise or meditate/mindfulness time (or both) before the interview. It suuuuucks to be physical when I’m so not feeling it, but it helps so much.

      During the interview be really intentional and purposeful about eye contact, firm handshake, solid confident posture, tone of voice (the worse i feel the more I sound like a stereotyped ‘valley girl’ by making everything a question. Create a superhero alter ego or channel your favorite movie star or tv anchor, whatever it takes to get that physicality in place. It’s a form of limited bio-feedback and it helps the mood a little. Every little bit helps.

      Good luck! Remember to take very good care of yourself after the interview EVEN IF you feel like you bombed it. It doesn’t matter how you did – it matters that you did it and it was hard and now you need to recover. Sports people don’t only get their sports trainer attention if they won the game, right? Same here.

      I’ll be rooting for you!

    14. zora*

      One technique my therapist has given me for this is to write out a list of all of the negative thoughts I can think of. Then go back to the top of the list and write on the right side of the page what is actually true: i.e. the exact opposite.
      – I am dumb and I don’t know what I am doing.
      becomes: – I am very smart and I know how to do a lot of things! (maybe even add some specifics.)

      Then for the day of the interview, I would pick out like three short versions from the list and write them down separately as my mantra for the day. And whenever I start to feel jerkbrain kicking in, just repeat the mantra in my head over and over. “I am smart, I am amazing, they would be lucky to have me!”

      There is something about writing it all down that helps it stick with me.

    15. Pennalynn Lott*

      I had a phone interview once that was geared toward me demonstrating my knowledge of some specific software and its uses. I was in the middle of the worst depression of my life, which means that not only was my brain telling me I was worthless and stupid but I legit couldn’t remember anything. You know, like the ins and outs of the specific software that I’d worked with for several years.

      So I dug up everything I knew about it, printed it out in large, easy-to-read-at-a-glance type, and spread it out across my dining room table. I spent a day studying the material and knowing what section of the table held which type of info. Then I stood in front of the table for my entire phone interview, handily answering any question thrown at me because everything I needed was in front of me instead of locked away in my temporarily disabled brain.

      Maybe you could do something similar? I see suggestions above about making lists of your achievements and searching the internet for difficult interview questions. But perhaps take it a step further and print out all the info, spread it in front of you, and practice using it several times before the actual phone call.

      1. Shelly574*

        This is a really great suggestion. I’ve done something like this for myself even when I’m not feeling depressed.

    16. Sami*

      There are already plenty of great suggestions here, but I’d like to add what helps me with my jerkbrain- music. Listen to favorite upbeat songs before the interview. And search for some favorite comedians on YouTube or Netflix. Get a good laugh going.
      Good luck!

  14. Underqualified*

    I was having trouble finding jobs to apply to because I’m way over qualified for the ones where I could check off 100% of the listed requirements, but then I read an article about how you don’t have to have 100% of the qualifications. With this in mind, I applied to a job where I fit about 8 of the 10 requirements (I didn’t have “comprehensive knowledge about x” and “experience with y”). I was excited to get asked to do a phone interview, but it went horribly. They majority of the interview was about the two requirements I didn’t fit. I didn’t mention them in my cover letter or on my resume, so if they were so important why did they contact me? Predictably, I got a form rejection the next day. I’m angry that I wasted so much time preparing for a phone interview where I mostly explained how I didn’t meet two requirements I never claimed to have.

    Am I supposed to be mentioning in my cover letter which requirements I don’t meet to avoid this? I always thought you were supposed to only talk about the ways in which you’d fit the job, and if you didn’t mention something that was super important then the person reviewing your application could figure out you weren’t qualified.

    1. Jenny*

      Keep trying… my experience is that “requirements” can actually be anywhere from must-haves to a wish list… and focus on your strengths… it won’t work everywhere but it will work for some. Either you can preemptively take yourself out of the race, or you can put yourself in, over and over.

    2. Susan K*

      No, you don’t need to call attention in your cover letter to the ways you’re not qualified. Ideally, the job postings should be more clear about what the most important requirements are so that you don’t waste your time applying for jobs like that one, but, of course, that’s outside of your control. This is really sort of the purpose of the phone screen interview — so both you and the employer can get an idea of whether it’s worth moving forward without wasting too much of anyone’s time (since a phone screen is a much smaller commitment than an in-person interview).

    4. Really?*

      Apply, apply, apply – I’ve applied for something where I thought I was barely qualified, and only had some of the digital skills they were looking for – which they seemed to be particuarly fixated. I was put off to start with applying, but they re-listed it, so I gave it a go. Got through to two interviews – they asked nothing about these all important digital skills and then I was rejected on the basis of lacking experience that was mentioned no where in the job description, my application or within my interviews.

      So apply realistically they don’t know what they want and you don’t know who’s in their candidate pool.

      As long as it’s not something ridiculous – I saw a job I could do, but they wanted 8 years experience which in no way, shape or form do I have. So I’m not gonna apply for that, but something where you know you can do it and/or are passionate about the role/career path/company – it’s worth applying. I think there’s a rule that you should have at least 60% of the essential skills. But even then unless you think you’ll look clueless/out of touch and you’ll know they have lots of jobs coming up that you might like – you might as well go for it.

    5. Specialk9*

      I’ve read 60%, so you were totally fine. Sometimes interviewers are jerks. (Shrug)

    6. zora*

      Don’t take this as a sign you’re doing it wrong! This just happened to be a bad fit. Job hunting is a numbers game, after all, every job posting you see won’t necessarily be a good fit! That’s one reason we have interviews, so that both sides can dig into the specifics and figure out if this combo will work.

      Keep doing what you did!! Definitely apply for jobs where you fit 60-80% of the requirements, but that sound like something you would want to do/be good at. And go into the interview to find out more. This job just happened to be more focused on the 20% you didn’t fit, but another job will be more focused on the 30% that are your strongest skills, and those other ones won’t be as important!!

      Don’t be angry that you wasted time, that’s not going to serve you. It is a reality that you will probably interview for a few jobs that you don’t get, but you will find the one that is a good fit!

    7. The New Wanderer*

      I’m kind of in the same boat. For every dozen jobs I’ve applied to with the same title and very similar descriptions, where I have most of the qualifications, ten out of 12 times I get no reply. One company will do a phone screen/first interview and then pass on me for reasons not specified (and not always obvious in the interview). One will get me to the third (final) interview which means I’m one of the few top candidates.

      I’d like to change that ratio, obviously, but so far it has not synched up with whether or not I used a cover letter, and my resume is essentially the same since the job descriptions are so similar. It really feels like a roll of the dice sometimes. If there is a dealbreaker skill/experience that you don’t have but they don’t mention up front, there’s just no way of knowing until the first (or second) discussion.

    8. Overeducated*

      You just got unlucky with this one, don’t change your whole cover letter approach or stop putting yourself out there for stretch or lateral-ish moves.

    9. Ozma the Grouch*

      As everyone else has mentioned, you did nothing wrong. You can’t predict which of the job requirements listed are going to be the most important to the hiring manager. They are the ones who are supposed to do due diligence when reviewing resumes and cover letters. Just keep doing what you are doing and you will find the right fit. Good luck!

    10. AH*

      I read an interesting article recently (which of course I can’t find right now) about how a woman was looking for a new job and decided to approach her job search like a man and apply for jobs she was “only” 60/70% qualified for. (She had previously only applied for jobs when she met all qualifications.) She was amazed at the number of interviews she got. According to a study cited in the article, men tend to apply for jobs when they meet roughly 50% of the requirements, whereas women consider meeting all qualifications to be a minimum.

    11. HRH The Duke of Coriander and Gomasio*

      This week I went through something similar but the recruiter suddenly mentioned a technology that wasn’t even in the job description and the call ended 30 seconds later after I said I didn’t have the experience.

    12. SpaceNovice*

      Sounds like you dodged a bullet! A recruiter shouldn’t be grilling you over the two requirements you didn’t list. It should be about the requirements you DID list and thinking of how you would gain the other two.

  15. Lynne879*

    I’m currently job searching, but I also have a 10 day vacation happening in the middle of September & I’m at a point where the dates can’t be changed.

    What’s a good way to bring this up during interviews? Or is it something I only bring up after I get hired?

    1. SoSo*

      Bring it up during the offer stage and let them know that it’s preplanned and can’t be adjusted. They should be understanding! Talking about it in an interview would seem too early IMO.

    2. ALPA*

      This same thing has happened to me twice now – and I let the hiring manager know as I was accepting the position. On both occasions, I just took the days unpaid and it was no big deal.

    1. Lizzy*

      No, but GOOD LUCK!!!!

      I’d think you could handle it the same way you’d handle any type of medical thing that you’d need time off for. Schedule interviews for whenever is convenient for you, ask questions you would normally ask (ask about benefits in general, not necessarily maternity leave, to avoid them potentially and unknowingly forming a bias against you). When you get an offer (not before), I’d just bring up that you have some medical appointments that are coming up, and say “how can we work around these?” If they ask for details, just respond with “oh, it’s just some routine appointments, but they’ve been on the books for a while now and I can’t really move them.”

      1. AnitaJ*

        Thank you! I think I’m concerned about two things. 1 – successful outcome, which would mean having to go to my new employer to say ‘oh by the way in 6 months I’m out on leave’, or 2 – unsuccessful outcome, which would mean another round of IVF and sporadic medical appointments, which isn’t a great way to enter a company. I really like your wording, though, and I’ll definitely be keeping it in mind.

    2. Batshua*

      Not to threadjack, but if anyone has similar(ish) experience with having eggs harvested while working, I’m … probably going to do that next year and I’d be interested.

      1. anycat*

        i can talk a bit about that. :) get some stretchy pants because you will bloat. at my clinic all of the monitoring appointments were done in the morning so i was usually just a few minutes late getting in. you will want to take a day off for your retrieval because you will be on some drugs and exhausted.

        1. Batshua*

          How were your moods?

          I’m sorta terrified I’m going to turn into a hormonal sobbing mess.

    3. Jules the Third*

      GOOD LUCK!

      I did two rounds of IVF, working a full time exempt position. It involved 2 – 3 doctors appointments over 2 weeks, and shots at home, 1x/day iirc, going to 2x/day after implantation, but the shots are easy to do outside of working hours.

      Assuming you are not also working at this time: I think I’d try to split my day, with mornings for drs appointments and job hunting paperwork, then lunch / afternoons for interviews / errands / more job hunting paperwork / housework. It would help me remember them if the appointments were all the same time of day.

      That said, of course you’ll want to be flexible, with job interviews coming second only to actual drs appointments, but most interviewers will be ok with a ‘I have an appointment I can’t change at that time, what about [later that day] or [same time the next day]?’ The Drs appointments were never two days in a row, the embryos needed 2 – 3 days to split after fertilization.

      We spring for ICSI – our insurance covered it and the extra embryos seemed worth it.

      (Ending to my story: got pregnant while gearing up for 3rd round; Little Jules is 10 now, and awesome. I hope your journey ends with success! ps: I had a *lovely* delivery. Sucky pregnancy, but the delivery, induction and epidural, was fun. Don’t let anyone scare you with their delivery stories!)

      1. AnitaJ*

        Thank you! I’m FT hourly right now, but my workplace is very flexible so I’m able to get to all my appointments with minimal fuss. (I’ve been in rigid butts-in-seats environments before and I’m lucky to be at a place that allows me that work-life balance.) I’m just concerned about what might happen if an offer is extended…but I guess I have to get there first! I want to take into consideration the timing, but I also don’t want to live my life as if I’m already pregnant; gotta keep that sanity and do what’s best for me. Congrats on your little one!! I’m so happy to hear it worked. I’m optimistic, but realistic. (And boy does this suck.)

  17. Weak Trees*

    Personality tests! What’s the worst question you’ve ever encountered?

    I ran into this one repeatedly back in my retail days. It’s been over a decade and I’m still grouchy about its utter failure:

    True/False: I never fake being polite.

    WTF?!? How would anyone fake being polite? It’s not an emotion, it’s an action – you’re either doing it or you’re not. This is like saying “I never fake walking.”

    I assume they were going for something along the lines of “I never act nice to people toward whom I’m not feeling particularly positive,” but I desperately want to find the person who wrote this question and ask them what deranged wombat had taken control of their brain during the drafting process.

    1. Pollygrammer*

      I think your assumption is right, and also that it’s pretty obvious what they intended. It wouldn’t occur to me to be grouchy about that one. It’s those A or B questions that get me, when you have to choose between “I care about being honest” and “I dislike hurting people’s feelings.”

      1. Weak Trees*

        I suppose I find it grouch-worthy because it’s so unfair: You’re already desperate for a job, which is dependent upon answering 50-100 of what are essentially trick questions to begin with. Then you’re confronted with this mess that makes no sort of logical sense and face the additional task of trying to translate it into something answerable, knowing that you’ve only got about a 50% chance of guessing right, which makes it feel like even more of a trap than the others.

        And I agree about the A/B ones. For all of these questions I just wanted a third write-in option:

        A or B or [ yes ]
        True or False or [Ask your question again, but do it better this time ]

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Also they’re all stored online and they’re tied to my personal information when job searching, which makes me feel like crud in the wake of all this hacking stuff (I have always been so careful to avoid FB quizzes etc, but now here is a vast intimate repository of personal information).

        2. Former Retail Manager*

          Trick questions is great phrasing. I believe that’s exactly what they were. When I was a retail manager, the company I worked for began using the Taleo application system which included 50-100 questions like the ones you mention that were all trick questions in my opinion. If you didn’t get a minimum ranking, your application would not be passed on in the system and there was no way for me as the hiring manager to override that. It was utter BS. On a fun note, I was hired before this system existed. I applied using the system and was rejected. Oh the irony. I have no doubt that retail misses out on a lot of good hires by believing that a series of questions asked by a machine has better judgment than an experienced human manager.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      The entire Myers-Briggs test. It’s not scientifically valid, so I’m not sure why my office’s management thought it was a good idea to have our whole team take the test. Especially given that we work at a RESEARCH UNIVERSITY…

      1. Uncontrollable Delight*

        I knew a young woman convinced the business owner to only promote people with her exact Meyers-Briggs type to management positions in the company. I’m still not sure if she actually believed in the test or was creating impressive job security for herself.

    3. Lindsay J*

      I had to do one which I think was the same as one that was talked about in a previous post.

      It involved ranking things from best to worst. And the things were completely disparate, and mostly sounded like Cards Against Humanity Prompts

      Like one was something like:

      A sense of justice
      A mother-in-law
      A broken refrigerator
      A television that has been struck by lightening
      Murder

      And some other stuff I can’t remember, so I will make a few more up

      A Fluffy kitten
      The joint chiefs of staff
      Vulgarity in speech and gestures
      Vigilante Justice
      Feeding a crying infant

      Apparently I passed it because I got called in for an interview. But I still don’t know what useful information they would get from that.

      1. Parenthetically*

        I’ve seen someone mention this type of test before here and it fills me with fury and confusion. Like… what on EARTH do they expect to learn from it?!

    4. Lindsay J*

      I always saw something like, “I never find annoying people to be annoying,”. I don’t think that was the phrasing, but that was the sentiment.

      I could never decide whether it was a trap or not. Like I could understand, “I have no trouble dealing with people who others find annoying,” or something like that.

      But if you consider someone an annoying person, then they are by definition annoying you. Otherwise they wouldn’t be an annoying person to you, they would just be a person.

    5. Lindsay J*

      Also, one I saw on one of my ex’s personality tests for being federal law enforcement.

      True/False: I believe that emoticons are used to hide evil

        1. PB*

          Seriously. I’m picturing what it could literally mean:

          “Drop the bombs :-)”

          Totally hides the evil.

    6. Environmental Compliance*

      Not worst question, but worst test. In high school, I applied at Farm & Fleet as a generic cashier/stocker/etc. They sat me down in a not very well lit room with a computer by myself for 45 minutes for a very, very long personality test. It included a disturbing amount of things like True/False: I have had the desire to harm someone.

      I got about halfway through the test (there was a progress bar at the bottom), then got up and asked if the interviewer was there yet. Nope, they can’t find them. Asked them to remove me from the list and walked out.

    7. Overeducated*

      Yes, that’s a clear misunderstanding of the entire purpose of politeness!

    8. Becky*

      I’m trying to figure out how they would interpret a false on that one. Does it mean you are never faking being polite, you’re actually just polite, or you’re never polite period?

    9. Akcipitrokulo*

      *Generally* – and depending how well designed it is – questions that say “always” or “never” tend to be used as “honesty” questions. Because always/never is so absolute virtually no-one can say yes honestly.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Back in the 80s I took a test.

      Is taking a pencil home from work stealing from work?
      Do you trust police officers?

      I failed this test. And they fired me from the job I ALREADY had. This, after promising me I would not get fired the test was a formality. It was weeks before my wedding.

      I later found out that the control group was a group of white males. The courts had a field day. The test was banned.

      The company I worked for went under a short while later. I did a happy dance.

    11. Ozma the Grouch*

      My partner was failed on a personality test because they are the child of divorce. Seriously. This was for a major retail chain BTW.

    12. Chaordic One*

      I know this is late, but I recently applied at a temp agency that placed a lot of people in factory assembly kind of jobs and the test had all sorts of true or false questions that were along the lines of:

      When I get angry I hit people.

      When someone disrespects you you should hit them.

      Then there a whole bunch of questions about drug and alcohol use. Thankfully they never called me back.

  18. alice*

    Tl;dr: how to negotiate for two extra weeks of vacation

    I’m American, and I’ve been living with my Irish husband and working in Ireland for the past two-ish years. I completed college in the US and moved here straight after. While we both like it here, we’ve decided to relocate to the US in January, granted his visa comes in okay. We’re both in STEM, and I’m not too concerned about either of us finding jobs (although we haven’t started searching yet as it’s way too early). However, one major issue is vacation time.

    Here, we both get 24 paid vacation days. That works really well for us because on top of enjoying the occasional personal trip, travelling back to visit my family takes 24-30 hours each way. Considering jetlag too, about four days are wasted for every visit..

    If we move back to the state we hope to be in, we’ll be a two- or three-hour flight away from my family and a seven+ hour flight away from his. I’m close to his family and vice versa, so I wouldn’t want to miss out on an opportunity to visit them.

    Because my salary will be so much higher in the US, I’m not concerned about negotiating for pay, but we would both like to negotiate for extra vacation time. I usually don’t like bringing up family matters in negotiation, but is this an appropriate thing to bring up? I’m young, and I don’t want to come across as an entitled millennial who just wants more free time. Here’s something I am planning on using at the offer stage:

    “That’s a bit below my target of $X. However, I’d be happy to accept if I could get 20 days of vacation instead of 10. My in-laws are in Europe and my own family is in HomeState. With just ten days a year, it wouldn’t be possible to visit both as often as we’d like. Is that something that would work for you? An extra ten days is roughly 5% of all working days in a year, so I’m already willing to accept 5% below $X.”

    What do you guys think? It’s worth noting that this is pretty non-negotiable for us. If we have an obscenely difficult time finding work, we’d compromise, but that’s not the goal.

    1. Camellia*

      I’ve never been able to negotiate an increase in vacation and in my experience most companies look at you like you are an idiot for even trying. Vacation policies are usually well-laid out and there is no deviation from them. You might have luck in smaller or individually-owned companies.

      I’m really curious if anyone else has had any success with this.

      1. my two cents*

        I agree with this. My example below are in extreme cases, especially for someone with only a few years experience.

      2. ThatGirl*

        I have! I got laid off last year from a job that had three weeks standard; at my new job they actually asked what I’d been getting and when I said three weeks, the HR rep said “our standard new hire is two weeks, but that’s one of the easiest things to negotiate” and I was offered three no problem. (Doubling 1o to 20 may not be as successful, but it can’t hurt to ask!)

      3. Anon Today*

        I tried this last year (I asked for 20 days versus 15 days), as I was taking a huge cut in vacation time and my family lives overseas and the request was declined, as the company had a specific policy. I was offered more money in lieu of the request and the option to work from overseas if I wished. Basically, the company tried to work with me as much as they could, but they couldn’t accommodate my request.

        1. Green Goose*

          This happened with my husband’s company. His company has a strict policy that everyone only gets 10 days off for the first 5 years, and then after that it goes up to 15. This PTO is very poor in our area, but to combat it his boss will let him work internationally or take unpaid leave (not our ideal but better than nothing).

      4. Specialk9*

        I negotiated from 10 days of vacation to 15 days, because they weren’t flexible on pay. 15 days was usually only for people with more seniority (years or grade). So it can be done.

        That said, I don’t fill out a timecard (though I still formally request my PTO days bc that’s my training), and my boss is very cool about remote work, so I feel like that flexibility goes a good way.

        (But also, 24-30 hours of travel just to go across the Atlantic?! That’s how long it takes to fly from the East Coast to West Coast to Japan to Hong Kong!!)

        1. Marcela*

          Not the original commenter, but it’s highly likely they/their family live in a more remote town, so their travel time includes (potentially several connected) flights + long drives from the airport. It can easily add up to 24-30 hours, and unfortunately I know this from experience.

      5. Liz Lemon*

        Oh, interesting. I’ve often negotiated for vacation time! At two different jobs, the offer was two weeks, and I negotiated for three. In my case (in the US), both times I just said “oh I have 15 days now, and I’d prefer not to lose any time.”

      6. Jerry V*

        If they won’t negotiate for vacation, see if they let you buy out more vacation time. It’s essentially a pre-planned commitment to unpaid time off. If you can take the time off unpaid, then simply turn it into a pay negotiation so that you get the amount you want to be paid, with the amount of time out of the office that you want.

    2. my two cents*

      I am American. I personally hear of very few people getting 24 days vacation unless they are very high up in the company, like upper management, CEO, or have been there for 15+ years at the company. That might just my industry though. I do think you are in a good position to negotiate given the salary. I totally think you could aim to get 3 weeks vacation and hope that your potential employer has additional days for sick or PTO time. Or another idea is maybe ask for comp time. There may be a way to get the time but it might not be called vacation time. Good luck. Keep us posted.

      1. SoSo*

        Yeah, as an American as well, my impression is that the only people who get 20+ days of PTO are either higher level, or have seniority at their company. You might get lucky and find a job with an organization that has a generous policy (ours is 15 days of vacation and 5 sick, but the sick expires at the end of the year). You would have to be in a very good position to negotiate extra, but even then it might be a stretch.

      2. Spooky*

        Greater NYC area here, and I don’t even think our VPs get that much. It is tied to seniority, though –the longer you work, the more you get. I’ve never heard of anyone successfully negotiating for more.

        1. my two cents*

          I’m from NYC area too. I personally always thought we got a decent package when (in NYC is) offered 3 weeks. My company’s CEO barely gets/ takes two weeks, though we do get some flexibility but not 24 days worth.

          1. Helen*

            Atlanta, GA area. Current employer: 2 weeks vacation, 3 sick day, 2 personal. After 5 years, 3 weeks of vacation (no change to sick or personal time). After 10 years, we max out at 4 weeks vacation ( again no change to sick or personal time). You must use all your vacation and personal time in a calendar year. Sick time can roll over and accrue.

      3. Red Reader*

        I get 28 days of PTO starting out, goes up to 35 at 5 years, but that includes vacation time, sick time and 6 paid holidays.

    3. Beehoppy*

      I agree that smaller companies will have much more wiggle room. I’ve done it successfully in the past and wish I had tried at my current position as a colleague of mine was successful in doing so. It is part of your total compensation package and should be valued accordingly. And if it’s non-negotiable you certainly want to try. I think it’s easier to do if you are coming from a position that already had a higher amount (often gained through tenure) and don’t want to regress.

    4. NewWorkingMama*

      This is anecdotal, but I’ve only ever worked one job with a 10 day vacation policy and it was only for the first year and it was my first job out of college. My current company has a very generous PTO policy, and based on what I know about friends and family, most policies fall somewhere in between. My husband works in STEM and has unlimited PTO. It might not even be a *thing* that you run into. However, I should also note that the company that only offered 10 days? Absolutely non negotiable and rigid HR system that eventually made everyone insane (think standing at the door making sure every single person was in their seat at exactly 8:30 or their boss got an email). If their policies are crazy rigid on stuff like vacation/PTO, it says a lot about the company in general.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      This is going to be tough, since most companies have very set policies about how much vacation time employees can have based on how long they’ve been there.

      1. Judy (since 2010)*

        I’d expect with 2 years of work experience, you won’t be able to do it. I’ve negotiated vacation time, but certainly not higher than the level that I’d have if I started there right out of college. When I moved companies with 4 years experience, they wouldn’t negotiate. When I moved companies with 11 years experience, I got 3 weeks. When I moved companies with 24 years experience, I got 4 weeks.

    6. SnarkyLibrarian*

      I think asking for 20 days of vacation when they’re only offering 10 days is a huge ask. However most of my work experience is in government agencies where leave and benefits are heavily regulated and non-negotiable, so YMMV. I wouldn’t bring up desire to visit family at all. Travel time and long distance family members are your issue, not theirs. I sympathize with you though! I think most leave packages here in the U.S. are pretty stingy, and have never had much luck in increasing leave benefits. I think it would be ok to ask for an extra day or 2 of vacation, but basically asking for double what they are offering doesn’t look realistic. Best of luck with your searches!

      1. Spooky*

        I agree with this. Asking them to straight-up double their offered amount is an awful lot to ask.

    7. Schnoodle*

      From my first job in HR on I’ve negotiated higher PTO. 2 out of the 4 jobs were from a head hunter so I had more help. I got lucky on the first job giving me 2 weeks. From there though I always asked for 3 weeks. That said, I had more and more experience, and worked for small companies so I was a one person HR. Somehow that seems to always give me more flexibility (you’d think it’d be less!).

      That said…with that little experience I don’t think you’ll get too much luck. What I might suggest instead is ask for two weeks after a year. Not immediately. That goes down easier.

      And for those who say there’s never deviations from PTO policy I disagree. If a great candidate wants more vacation, they usually get it. IF THEY ASK. So many don’t ask…if they had asked…

      1. Is This How We End Up On 20/20?*

        Jealous…as a one person HR, time off has been hellish to me from the get go. None of my bosses would give more time off. It was bothersome enough to take the standard amount.

    8. Phoenix Programmer*

      I recommend not negotiating benefits as they are easily taken away. You can start your job and move only to have your negotiates venfit stripped by a new VP or something. Happens all the time.

      1. Det. Charles Boyle*

        The company I work for provides 3 weeks of PTO to start, with the number going up incrementally for each year you stay at the company. In addition, you can work flexible hours (four 10-hour days and take Fridays off, for example) or drop down to 32 hours per week and still be counted as full time for the sake of benefits. That might be something to consider, once you’re established somewhere.

    9. lisalee*

      I don’t think you should try to justify it in terms of pay like that, though I do think your family situation is a good explanation. I would just drop the last two sentences entirely.

      Honestly, though, vacation is so variable in the US that you might be better off seeking out companies that already offer good vacation time, or that combines sick and vacation time in one PTO pot if you don’t think you’ll be taking many sick days. Frex, my current job gives us 20 days of PTO plus holidays, and that was a big reason why I applied here. It may be a stereotype, but more millennial-oriented companies do seem to be upping their vacation.

    10. Pancakes*

      I negotiated for an extra week at my small nonprofit. Bot exactly STEM, but I can share what I did. They had already let me know what the salary was and said that they would not be able to negotiate (they said this before I interviewed so I’d have a chance to opt out which I appreciated!). So when I got the offer I said that I knew there was no room to negotiate on salary, but that having an extra week of vacation would make a difference to me and asked if it would be possible. They said yes.
      I’m not sure if bringing up your family is the way to go, but maybe just say that vacation time is important to you. Especially if it is a dealbreaker and you’re willing to settle for less in terms of pay, I think you can make a good case without all the explanation.

    11. WellRed*

      I think it’s worth trying to negotiate, but don’t bring up the reasons. Other people could also use more time off for a variety of equally important to them reasons.
      Also, I wouldn’t assume all places only offer 10 days (unless that’s a known factor in STEM?). I started with 15 at my job, plus sick days.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah, I feel like for education-heavy jobs, 15 days seems more likely. Just my impression.

    12. my two cents*

      Sorry if this is reposted. My computer froze due to some upgrades when submitting!

      OP Alice – you seem to have gotten a lot of wiggle room answers to your question, but not exactly what you are looking for. How much does vacation time factor into your move? I guess I’m curious to know if you have an alternative plan if you do not get all the days you are requesting when you move here. It’s a big move especially with family and friends near and very far.

      Another thing to consider is that while, again I’ve not heard of this with 24 days, you could ask a potential employer if you can take 1 week without pay.

      1. Thlayli*

        This is a good point – offering to take unpaid extra leave might be more palatable

    13. A.*

      I think you can maybe negotiate taking work without pay without being penalize but I would be surprised if you could negotiate extra vacation. Maybe focus on negotiating a higher salary so you can afford to take leave without pay. I understand, my family is spread out all over the globe and my dad lives on a different continent. Visits usually eat up my vacation for the year.
      Also, I have had jobs that had one pot of vacation. Meaning I could use sick leave, personal and vacation interchangeably. Some places are stricter about the type of leave you use. Something to think about when applying.

    14. Buffy*

      Maybe you can investigate companies beforehand for their benefits? For instance, the University I work at has an overview of their employee benefits online, including vacation time. In the University setting, we also get far more vacation and sick time than most places. (I have friends who moved to Europe who make some other friends quite jealous with their more generous PTO.)

      1. Buffy*

        (We get 24 vacation days a year, 12 sick days, and a smattering of other PTO like family sick leave.) Just a thought if you could apply for state universities!

    15. TCO*

      I’ve successfully negotiated vacation! I’ve mostly worked in smaller nonprofits where PTO is a key benefit and they can be more flexible than bigger places with strict policies. In my field, asking for 20 days wouldn’t be seen as crazy even if they can’t say yes.

      One thing to consider–would you be open to taking some unpaid time off each year if you’re happy with your salary? I’ve negotiated 1-2 weeks of unpaid PTO at two different jobs where I had a pre-planned vacation when I accepted the job. You could ask if the company would be willing to give you up to two weeks of unpaid PTO each year, for instance. While it might still be an exception to the company’s policies it’s probably easier for them to accomodate than making an exception to their accrual rates.

    16. AeroEngineer*

      This is actually one of the main reasons I have decided to not relocate back to the US.

      Companies are weird about vacation there, and 10 days of vacation (if that) for a whole year would drive me crazy. I don’t think your script will be received that well though, honestly. You might be better off asking for unpaid time off, or just restricting your job search to companies who offer around that amount of vacation

      I would rather take a lower salary and have better benefits like more vacation and cheaper health insurance etc. I even calculated it comparing it to a friend who does similar work in the US, and between rent, having to own a car, health insurance, student loans and other costs, she didn’t even end up making that much more than me.

    17. OldJules*

      I wish that it’s possible for me. Instead we visit family every 1.5 years in order to save up enough vacation time. But so far, every job I had refused to give more than 15, even if I am willing to trade pay for it. I had one who was willing to let me ‘buy’ vacation which was really nice but that is not the norm.

    18. Awkward Interviewee*

      I’m not sure what your roles are in STEM, but if applicable, look at positions at universities – they generally come with lower salaries but generous vacation. Both universities I’ve worked for have offered over 20 vacation days a year standard.

    19. Unfashionable*

      Have you considered that a consequence of successfully negotiating this much extra vacation is that you will have to navigate getting 24 days while working with peers who get 14?

    20. Halmsh*

      It’s funny how NYC area folks are saying that 20+ days is unheard of. In the non-profit industry, I’ve had 15 and 20 injunior positions, with senior staff getting 20, 25, and 30 days. I think it depends on where you’re working (as I understand, STEM might be corporate, non-profit, start-up, government).

      I think before making your big ask, you should find out what their office holidays are and if they have a comp time policy and factor that into your ask. My old job had about 7 days scattered throughout the year where the office was closed on top of federal and local holidays that everyone would plan their vacations around, it made our PTO seem enormous, whereas new job has only the standard holidays but 5 days more PTO. You might find that a 10 day PTO offer is really more like 20 with those things considered.

      As other folks have said, maybe you don’t need to lay out your reasons for wanting more PTO on the table right away. If they won’t agree to your ask or meet you in the middle, ask about their policies around unpaid time off.

    21. Lirael*

      Given that it’s pretty non-negotiable for you guys, I think it’s worth at least attempting to negotiate at the offer stage if they’re not offering enough. I’m a little torn on bringing up family in Europe as a strategy. It might come across as thinking that they should care about something that’s not really their concern, but for some people, it might make it more understandable why it’s so important to you.

      My impression is that that PTO is often pretty set so you may not be super successful at getting a bunch more, but of course, it depends on the company. My (large, American) company offers 20 days PTO to new hires (which includes any sick time), 11 holidays (which in my role, I sometimes have to work through, but then I can take an extra day off later), and you get an extra five days a year every five years, up to a max of 35 days PTO, and anything unused expires at the end of the year. I don’t know of any exceptions to the policy, but it’s also on the more generous side for US companies.

    22. Teapot project manager*

      I’ve known people who have negotiated extra vacation time but I also agree to try to research and find employers who offer more

      My company starts with 20 days of PTO with an additional day each year of service. That is separate from the paid holidays but is used for vacation and sick. It’s also accommodating for work for home, so days when you are contagious so maybe don’t want to go to office but you feel OK and want to work from home, you can.

    23. Akcipitrokulo*

      I once got an offer increased from bank holidays + 22 days to bank holidays + 25 days because that was what another position was offering – but that’s unusual. No idea about how it would go over in US though!

    24. Windchime*

      The only time I ever had luck with this was when I transferred to a sister company of the company I was working with, so I was kind of a “known quantity” when I got hired. They didn’t let me start accruing at a higher rate, but they front loaded my PTO account with some extra days that I could start using right away. No other job has ever let me negotiate for extra vacation, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try! Best of luck to you.

    25. Green Goose*

      Hi Alice! I’m an American with an Irish husband as well but we live in the U.S. already. Part of my family lives near us but the other half lives in Europe and his family is in Ireland. We both work at companies that have a set policy of how much PTO a new employee gets and it increases over the time that an employee is at the company. Most companies near us, employees will need to accrue vacation time so when you start you essentially have to grow your vacation time during the year (important to consider if you start within a few months of the holidays and you are planning a trip that will require more than a few days off).

      I’m pretty lucky because my company has a very generous PTO (about 8-9 weeks) but my husband only has 2 weeks. He tried to negotiate more but his company said that they keep the rule the same for everyone but they did say that if he wanted to take unpaid leave or if he wanted to work East Coast hours while in Ireland he could do that, and he’s done that on two trips back home.

      I think the key is that after you get an offer, figure out what a deal breaker is. If you need to see your family at least twice a year, for at least two weeks don’t take a job that won’t work with you to make sure that happens or you’ll just be unhappy at that company.

      Good luck!

    26. SpaceNovice*

      15 seems to be more standard for STEM in my area. I’ve seen places that give people 20 off the bat, too. This includes big, international engineering groups. If a place is giving you only 10, I would heavily consider finding another place unless you don’t have other options.

  19. Denise*

    Director Position

    They ask for:
    –8-10 years experience, minimum
    –Graduate degree preferred
    –Mission alignment

    I have:
    –6 FT years
    –smattering of related internships (with “name brand” organizations FWIW)
    –smattering of contract work
    –Graduate degree
    –Demonstrated mission alignment

    I’m within striking distance, right? I feel like I’m stretching upward but at the same time, in looking at the job description, I feel like it resonates. They have an associate position open as well, 3-5 years, minimum, but it doesn’t resonate and would look like a slightly downward lateral move.

    1. ANon.*

      APPLY!!! You totally qualify. Keep in mind that the requirement sections for more job ads are more of a wishlist than a hard-set requirement.

    2. Pinky*

      If you think you can do the job, then go for it! Honestly, I often feel like ranges for years of experience are very arbitrary. If you already have 6 years of experience, what are you lacking that you’d gain in that last 2?

      (This is assuming of course that your 6 years of experience are all relevant to the position.)

    4. soupmonger*

      I would go for it. Depends on other candidates, of course, but you may get lucky. You’re not losing anything by applying.

    10. Jadelyn*

      The worst they can do is say no. I say go for it – if I got a resume that looked like that for a director position, I’d assume it’s a little bit of a stretch but that you’re someone who’s ready for and trying to take the next step in their career, and I’d pass you along to the hiring manager based on what you’ve said here.

    11. Is This How We End Up On 20/20?*

      You never know the candidate pool. You should always try unless you’re less than 60-70% of their “ideal” candidate in my opinion.

      I openly sigh when I get something like an AP only ever clerk applying to a full cycle position. But I’ve seen someone with 5-6 years end up being great even though we tacked an 8-10 ideal time frame.

      As long as you know the job is in your wheelhouse and not just like “well I could learn to be the CEO even though I’m a 5 year deep filing clerk.” it’s worth throwing your hat in.

  20. Hermione*

    I’ve been thinking more and more about making a career change to event/wedding planning, and would love to hear from folks in the field.

    I’m currently in higher education administration, and I like the pay/stability/benefits, but feel more and more like I would be exceptionally suited for events/wedding planning, and am not sure when or even how I would go about making that sort of switch, nor what to expect when I did. I’m in a well-known city in New England, but I don’t have a lot of contacts in the field currently.

    1. ALPA*

      Former event planner here! I primarily did fundraising events at nonprofits, private schools, etc. but can lend some perspective! I loved event planning because my tasks were always clear, and I had clear projects with deadlines which mean I was never bored and always highly motivated. Events can be really high stress, which is ultimately what made me get out – plus evenings/weekend work can be a bummer. The hardest part is probably opinionated clients/volunteers who come up with INSANE ideas that you have to figure out a way to execute, or talk them out of it.

      My advice would be to reach out to event or wedding planners you know and ask if they need any help at their upcoming events. Wedding planners typically employ second-in-commands to help on the day-of, so it would be good exposure to what goes into it!

    2. FellowHIED*

      Also in higher education administration, and I’ve had this same thought too (maybe not specifically weddings, but more event planning in the nonprofit sector). Are you in a position where you do event coordination right now? I can imagine that the skill set of planning admissions visits, orientation, commencement, alumni events, student activities, etc is somewhat transferable.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Event planner who is currently working in higher education administration here! Have you looked at event planning-focused positions in your institution? My role is 100% event planning (I organize fundraising events, reunions, other alumni-centric events, etc.) but I have the stability that working at a university provides. There are some evening/weekends involved, but that’s standard for any event planning role.

      1. DC*

        Seconding this. I was the event planner for a large university for a few years, and now I’m the events person for a local think tank. Similar stability, benefits, and a lot less evening/weekend work.

        Remember that almost everywhere will have events-specific folks, and consider checking out places you might not have thought to apply to at first because they don’t fit the “events” mold in some people’s brains. Large organizations, companies, etc.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Agreed! My last job was at an insurance firm and I got to plan some of the coolest events of my career there.

    4. Ama*

      I moved out of university administration into a medical research nonprofit and I definitely have found a lot of carryover when I have to plan events (I’m not an event planner but I do have to oversee 3-4 major meetings a year) — particularly since I work in a department where the people attending our events are largely academics. But if you really wanted to do the full event planning piece, we have other roles here where that would be possible — some of our public events involve working with academics who serve as speaking faculty, for example.

      I think you’d have a little bit harder time breaking into our fundraising event side just because those are very different types of planning (at least for us), unless you can point to work you’ve currently done that involved fancy plated dinners or university fundraisers, but when the programs side is looking for staff who have event planning responsibilities we love seeing applications from university administrators.

    5. Eugenie*

      Former non-profit event planner here – honestly, I wouldn’t recommend it as a career unless you’re just starting out. Losing all of your evenings and weekends is really hard, I can’t imagine doing it with a family. I didn’t think it would be bad, but when all your friends/family work M-F 9-5 you end up totally out of sync with your social circle and it can be really isolating.

      I also don’t think those roles are compensated fairly for the insane amount of stress (and the aforesaid loss of your personal time) they require.

  21. Shelly574*

    I was asked on this Wednesday of this week about my availability for a phone interview next week on Thursday. I told them what times I was available. Every other phone screen I’ve done they got back promptly with an exact time. If I don’t hear back today or Monday, given the times are Thursday of next week, when it is appropriate to follow up for more information and what language should I use when I do?

    1. Shelly574*

      By more information, I mean an exact time. It’s nuts to wait by my phone for the three hour block I said I could be available.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        If you haven’t heard anything by COB Tuesday, I think it’s appropriate to send an email Wednesday AM saying something along the lines of, “I wanted to follow up to see whether we were confirmed for a call tomorrow, and if so at what time. If the times no longer work, I’m happy to send some possibilities for a future date. Looking forward to speaking!”

  22. Let's Talk About Splett*

    What’s your best work email reply snafu? People accidentally replying to the whole company? Forwarding an email and forgetting sensitive content was in the thread?

    1. Red Reader*

      Once upon a time, someone sent out the email inviting people to the anniversary dinner (5 year, 10 year, and so on) with all the invitees cc’ed, not bcc’ed. One of the things mentioned in the email was that guests were welcome, but guests had to purchase tickets while honorees did not. Someone misread and replied all, pitching a tantrum about how they couldn’t believe they had to buy a ticket to be honored at the anniversary dinner, caps lock and cuss words galore. 1500 emails later….

    2. Snubble*

      The NHSmail reply-all-pocalypse made the national news.

      (I didn’t send any reply-all emails, but I sure did read a lot of them that day.)

    3. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      Back at my first job, someone from the L.A. local office sent a farewell email to the spanish speaking distribution list, that included people from Latin America, Spain and the Phillipines.

    4. The Original K.*

      Where I used to work, an HR manager sent out confidential information re: a group of employees who were being promoted to the entire company (thousands of people). She tried to recall the message but the damage was done. She kept her job though.

    5. EB*

      One of my personal favorites, might not be the funniest out there, but our IT director will occasionally send funny announcements whenever there’s a new spam email trend. Our most senior admin assistant, who is not great with technology, has replied all to the entire department (300+) to ask him basic, unrelated questions (this is probably also annoying to our IT director since we have a dedicated IT email for general issues).

      My current favorite is simply “Can you get an email out of the trash?”

    6. Phoenix Programmer*

      Well now that we are one Office365 reply all is default on the mobile so it is happening more and more often.

      1. JeanB in NC*

        Why in the world would anyone program reply-all as the default! That’s amazing (in a bad way).

        1. only acting normal*

          So they can sit back with their popcorn and watch the fireworks unfold?

    7. Ms. Meow*

      Not really a huge snafu, but this literally happened yesterday and it made me laugh out loud during a serious meeting, so I figure it’s worth a share.

      We have a safety group on site that hold events and activities to engage employees. They decided to try something new yesterday: email out a trivia question, and if you reply to the sender with the correct answer you can win a prize. It was sent out to the site distribution list. Within 5 minutes someone had replied to the entire site with the answer to the trivia question. Oh, well. Better luck next time, I guess.

    8. CTT*

      I don’t have a good work one, but while in law school, two classmates accidentally replied all to an email about pro bono volunteers. I can’t remember what the exact issue was, but Classmate 1 said something like “Um, have you seen this?” and Classmate 2 replied with “Rude. It’s so weird that he wouldn’t tell you directly instead of sending the mass email.” There was like 5 minutes of radio silence in which everyone was talking about how awkward that was, and then finally one of the jokey guys in my class replied “Yeah, it IS weird. #JusticeForClassmate1” Given the way my law school is, that could have ended so badly, so the one funny reply was perfect.

    9. WellRed*

      I replied to a job candidate, Jeremy, instead of my boss, that while Jeremy was obviously the best qualified, I felt Stacey would be a better fit. At least I was complementary?

    10. curly sue*

      My favourite recent one was a message about a minor event for one department that went out to the all-employee mailing list of over 6,000 people.

      So naturally we got three days worth of “I don’t think I should be on this list” and “why is this in my inbox my inbox” and “why are you emailing *me* about taking you off the list when *you’re* the one who sent this” and so forth, and so on… all of them going out to everyone who’d received the first email.

      And then, of course, we had the followup deluge of “don’t hit ‘reply all'” and “do you people not look at address lines” and “STOP MAILING ME” messages that took another day or two to stop.

      1. Ama*

        We had to start bcc’ing a group that was about 90 people (45 group members and their assistants), because people wouldn’t tell us when their assistants changed and every group email devolved into a bunch of assistants replying all with “why am I on this list?” or “I don’t work for Jane any longer can you stop emailing me”).

        Of course since we bcc everyone now (even though we say in the email “your assistants have been bcc’d”) we get a bunch of “can you please copy my assistant on this” or the poor assistants who have more than one executive following up to ask us who it is directed at. But at least that’s all going just to the staff that are supposed to deal with it.

    11. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I was on one recently where we had returned something to a vendor and were having a hard time getting credit (which would be emailed or mailed to me) and the manager asked me to keep him updated on whether or not the “dead beats” actually sent the credit. I replied to his email a week or so later and let him know that I still hadn’t seen it and he forwarded the whole chain to the vendor when he asked them if they were sending the promised credit. The vendor then sent the email correspondence to the president of our company and informed him that they no longer wanted our business and the president of the company sent a big apology and got one of our senior sales people to smooth the whole thing over with the understanding that the manager in question would no longer be allowed to contact them. It was good times.

      At oldjob, an HR person ran an active employee report annual salary information and sent it to a whole bunch of people that shouldn’t have had access to salary info. The report was supposed to be sent but it was just supposed to include name, hire date, job title and supervisor.

      2. Not a Morning Person*

        I’m aware of a similar situation where the data HR sent included SS#s. They were part of HR’s tracking, but no one else needed to see them. And when recipients pointed it out, instead of HR staff person taking ownership and promising to eliminate the info from future distributions, she told them “well if you don’t need to see it don’t look at it.” Apparently that did not go over well….

      3. only acting normal*

        My micromanaging project lead recently forwarded an email chain to me in which he’d told the customer *I* was the one holding up the project, when actually *he* was.
        It’s going in my special folder.

    12. Jadelyn*

      Someone who forgot to use BCC on an all-staff email about Xmas parties at each location. We were then all treated to one of our L.A. branches all discussing their branch’s Secret Santa exchange for the rest of the bloody afternoon.

    13. Buffy*

      There was an issue a a few years ago at the university I work at…there was a Clery notification about a sexual assault that had occurred on campus. Someone did a reply-all (don’t think it should have been possible, must have been an IT glitch) about how they only wanted “important” updates and these things were a waste of his time. Incredibly tone-deaf, given the subject matter…it went out to the whole university faculty, staff and students!

    14. Grits McGee*

      We had some kind of IT issue where every person in our federal agency had their address book name changed to “Vernell Jones”*

      *Name changed to protect the innocent

    15. Squeeble*

      I had a mail merge set to go out to a bunch of important people about an important announcement. I was supposed to send it from my boss’s email. Well, the way mail merge works in Outlook I guess, that’s not possible? Or I just didn’t do it right. That was maybe my first or second month on the job and I had to go tell my boss that this big, formal announcement had not come from her, the director, but from me, the newbie that no one knew. Oops.

    16. Decima Dewey*

      I have two stories: a circulation assistant whose diabetic relative died sent an email to REPLY ALL offering unused syringes, essentially a controlled substance, to everyone in the system, from the director on down.

      Second, someone who had access to the director’s email read an invitation meant as an olive branch as a trap. Sent an email recommending the director decline the invitation. Referred the person extending the invitation as a “tar baby” and “evil to the core.” Instead of sending the email to the director, he sent it to the person extending the invitation.

      1. Specialk9*

        Uh, is tar baby the racist term I think? I’ve only heard it in the Brer Rabbit story, which I thought was a slavery era story?

        1. Not a Morning Person*

          It is not a racist term. It is to be taken more literally as something that you pick up and sticks to you like tar. A problem that only seems to get worse and messier the more you try to work on it.

        2. Recovering journalist*

          It is considered racist by many Americans, so it should always be avoided.

        3. only acting normal*

          It’s a slavery era story in that it originates in African folklore (an Anansi story IIRC) and that’s how it was brought to America*.
          That said, some of the illustrations used in books and cartoons were horribly racist (not to mention appropriated) so I can see why people would rather avoid the use of the term.
          * although Wikipedia suggests there are similar, independently originated, Native American stories already.

    17. Former Retail Manager*

      Not e-mail, but instant messenger. I had two conversations going with two people at the same time, one was my boss and one was a co-worker. I messaged my boss about my boss, basically saying that I’d overheard a closed door conversation (his fault for taking all of his calls on speaker and practically yelling…a closed door does very little for that) and that I believed his expectations of new hires were unrealistic. I realized it as soon as I hit enter, but it was too late. I could only apologize and say it wouldn’t happen again….and it hasn’t. I removed him from my instant messenger list and any convos with him now are promptly closed out when the discussion is over.

    18. The OG Anonsie*

      So this is a classic from a message board I’m on, where someone was replying to a client and did that thing where you do several actions in such quick succession that you don’t have time to fix a mistake before it’s too late. She hit ctrl+v and send really fast one after the other, expecting her usual email signoff block to be in her clipboard. Instead, what WAS in her clipboard was a line she had cut from an earlier email where a coworker had been asking her about a recipe. So her email ended up:

      [Paragraph of an actual helpful response to the client.]

      I have been doing this for years and my cakes are very moist.

      Regards,
      Jane

      1. Specialk9*

        I just laughed so hard at that. It’s not even offensive, but it would be SO BEWILDERING to get a normal business email that ended that was. Oh lord.

      4. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        Sitting in my office trying not to laugh loud enough to be heard in the next office!

      5. MSMS*

        That cracks me up every time I see it on the message board you’re talking about. Occasionally I want to send it as a reply to particularly stupid emails or texts.

    19. Scubacat*

      Once the HR department sent a mass email listing the salary of EVERYONE in the company. From the CEO to the managers to front line staff. Turns out the CEO was rather well compensated.

      Then they sent another mass email requesting that the previous email be deleted without opening it. No one paid any attention to this instruction.

      1. Specialk9*

        That makes me actually dizzy imagining.

        On the other hand, talk about leveling the privilege playing field. And fueling the lawsuits.

        1. Scubacat*

          I do have to wonder HOW this happened. And also, WHAT happened afterwards. It’s likely a colourful story behind the scenes. This company was in the news recently for sexual harassment violations. The CEO (and many directors) were asked to leave for the good of the company. It is known that the HR director was involved in sexual workplace misconduct . The company put him on leave, and eventually paid him out to keep quiet. The dude wasn’t fired because he was the son of the original founder, and knew a large donor base. And that’s just the lawsuit that I know about.

          Wow. That’s a real tire fire isn’t it?

    20. 2Anon 2Furious*

      I work for a legislative office. I’m subscribed to receive a notification e-mail and an Outlook meeting invitation for all meetings of the Appropriations committee, which sets the state’s ~$100 billion budget. Got one of these notifications and forwarded the meeting invite to an intern in my office with a note about wanting her to attend the meeting, and to pay attention to discussion of a particular issue our office had an interest in (not the end of the world, but not something we’d normally broadcast).

      Intern replied to say she would be able to attend, but hit “Reply All.” Normally, I’d expect this to be delivered to me and to a non-functioning inbox for the automated notification address, but it went to me and to *every person subscribed to notifications for the Appropriations committee* – conservatively at least half of the elected officials, their staff members, legislative agencies, and professional staff who work for the legislature.

    21. Middle School Teacher*

      Not me, but another teacher I know was emailing a colleague about how anal the department head was being about making sure the provincial exams were securely locked up. At one point the person I know wrote “if she’s so worried, she can stick her exams up her a**.” But she didn’t realise her email was projecting on her screen… for all to see. (Her students were writing an exam at the time, so none were looking up… she thinks.) This was many years ago when computers projecting to screens in classrooms was a newer thing.

    22. Synonymous*

      Oooo, we get an e-mail every morning with a bunch of links to articles that relate to our field. It goes out to thousands of people.

      One time the guy who compiles the links clearly didn’t realize his source and sent everyone a link to a Playboy article (the article was related to our work, but not at all appropriate).

    23. Akcipitrokulo*

      Same first name as HR bod… so keep getting people sending my personal stuff, including leaving interview comments, medical details and financial information…

      I forward then delete – but seriously, folks – double check who’s getting your personal shit!

    24. AnonforThis*

      Someone in my org replied to every single person in my agency calling us “snowflakes” because the union had asked to have a policy for handling hate speech from the public.

    25. AnonyStudent*

      The specific school I’m in at my university puts out a weekly newsletter that’s basically, “Look at the awesome things our students and professors are doing!” I have my inbox set up so that all those messages go into one folder. One evening during Thanksgiving break I was skimming all the newsletters in a single sitting and noticed that ~90% of the featured stories were about men. My school is evenly split between male and female, so I replied — NOT “Reply All” — to the department that puts out the newsletter and said, “Are there no women at [our school] doing noteworthy things?”

      Ha.

      Replying to the department, and checking to see that the department name was the only thing in the “To:” field was useless because the department’s email address — despite being “SchoolNewsletter@university.edu” is actually THE ENTIRE DISTRIBUTION LIST, including the Dean.

      I received dozens of [private] support messages similar to, “Thank you for asking that! My department was the winner of Prestigious Competition and the newsletter wasn’t interested in my article about it.” And probably half that many nasty messages sent via Reply All. And the nasty messages were all from men. So it was awesome that they made themselves look bad in front of the entire school.

      After the break, I went to talk to one of my professors in her office and before we could get started on my coursework issue she said, “BTW, I saw your message to the whole school. That took some balls. I like it. We need more of it.”

      I’m mostly embarrassed because now everyone thinks I’m “That Person” who doesn’t understand the difference between Reply and Reply All.

      But my school’s newsletters now feature a lot more women. So there’s that. :-)

      1. only acting normal*

        That. Is. AWESOME!

        They don’t think you don’t know the difference between reply/reply all – they think you’re a BADASS who will call out bullshirt loud and clear.
        Own it.

    26. No Tribble At All*

      Some poor HR person was sending an updated policy document to everyone…

      Email to the whole company (~500 people): “attached is the new company policy on blahblahblah”
      Two minutes later: “attached is the new company policy, apologies for not including it last time”

      And now I’m not longer afraid of forgetting attachments :D

    27. tj bag dog*

      Ugh, our company has some great fun aliases, like an alias for daily cat facts. The issue is, some people will subscribe their coworkers if they leave their computer unlocked, or employees who do not check their email regularly (think warehouse employees) will subscribe and forget until they come back to a flooded inbox.

      At least once a week, someone will reply all to an ongoing thread asking to be unsubscribed. What’s most frustrating is we have a self-service email alias tool, where you can see every list you’ve been added to, and unsub there. Like, if you subscribed yourself to a list, you had to access and use that tool. I’ve taken to unsubbing someone as soon as they ask, then replying just to them how to do it in the future, and then emailing the list at large with instructions (in the body of the email, with links!) on how to unsub.

      I don’t find it at all funny anymore when people mess with those asking to unsub. Not because I feel bad for the requester (literally! search! the! company! homepage! You will find the self-service tool in 2 seconds!), but because it creates a huge, reaction image-laden chain. I luckily aggressively organize all my emails into folders, so I can select all and delete. But sometimes, people get the bright idea to bcc the list so you DEFINITELY don’t miss their snarky email, and I can’t filter that.

    28. Pennalynn Lott*

      Instant message not email: My brand-new manager, who had been a co-worker just a week or so earlier, IM’d my old manager and said, “Don’t you just want to punch Pennalynn in the gut sometimes?” But he sent it to me instead of her.

      I found it incredibly hilarious, and later bought him a miniature set of boxing gloves and one of those Bobo the Clown inflatable punching dolls.

    29. Windchime*

      I once worked with this zany woman, Julie. She was very funny and was always getting into silly situations (like sitting on the edge of the bathtub she had just finished re-glazing and got stuck to it, or climbing into the wrong vehicle after exiting the bank). She left my department and went to another area, where apparently she was organizing a baby shower for a coworker and accidentally invited all 1200 employees to it (she chose the wrong email list to send it to).

    30. tangerineRose*

      Someone posted a job opening to a listserv, and someone replied to all asking about the job so we all knew that the person was looking for a new job.

    31. Thlayli*

      A friend of mine once messed up his signature and spent an entire day sending out emails that ended

      Retards
      Jim

    32. Certainly anon for this*

      I was once acting as an advocate for one of our employees who had been sexually harassed by the head of another org. The other org’s board president emailed the woman who had been harassed to say they would be taking it seriously and having an independent investigation of the head. The board president cc’d me (as the supervisor) and the board members on the email.

      Right after that, the board members started a reply-all email conversation…but they forgot to remove me and the woman who had been harassed. It was not pretty–full of nasty victim blaming and jumping to the head’s defense. The president stepped in almost immediately to apologize to us and stop the reply-all train, but it was too late. There’s not really any stepping back from that.

    33. SpaceNovice*

      When a virus went around and if anyone clicked on the attachment, it would use the internal address book to email everyone and every group. Again and again, our inbox was filled with dozens of emails from one person. Those that clicked on it were gently teased. Our poor email servers were flooded, though.

  23. Chupalupe*

    Waiting for a visa to come through so I can start my new job! Means I haven’t given notice yet, so just sitting and being quiet about it is killing me!

  24. KL*

    I need a little advice on what to say when I learn next week that I didn’t get a job. I applied for an accounting/HR position in my unit. I’m currently an assistant at a university and while I know I had almost no background business or HR, I’m currently working on an MPA and decided to throw my hat in the ring. I would love to learn more about the funding/budgeting side of government orgs and non-profits. Amazingly, I got an interview and was told I did well, but deep down, I know there’s no way I’m going to get this position. I have some anxiety problems, and one thing that works for me is to practice what I would say/how I would act in worst case scenarios. Right now, I’ve come up with saying something to the effect of “Thanks so much for the opportunity to interview and I look forward to working with the new hire.” How does that sound? Also, would it be ok to also ask for feedback on my interview?

    1. Murphy*

      Practicing is a great idea! I do the same.

      I think what you have sounds good. (I think it’s also OK to admit being disappointed, but it’s also OK to omit that.) Asking for feedback is definitely OK! You can ask what you could do in the future to strengthen your candidacy or something like that.

    2. anyone out there but me*

      Well, first of all, good luck – you haven’t been told “no” just yet. There’s still a chance, if you ask me.

      But to answer you question, your suggestion is good. And sure, ask for feedback on your interview. It doesn’t hurt to ask.

  25. Don't want to scream "i'm going to an interview"*

    Suggestions for how to handle taking time off for interviewing while currently being non-exempt at a company that 1. doesn’t offer much vacation time and 2. really values butt-in-seat time? We also dress in jeans/tees so that makes it harder since I can’t come in dressed nice without everyone commenting. So far, I’ve said “appointment” and changed clothes at a gas station along the way when I didn’t have time to go all the way back to my house.

    1. EB*

      Might be helpful to try to schedule interviews for first thing in the morning, too. That way you don’t have to worry about keeping your interview clothes nice/unwrinkled. And I feel like it’s kind of easier to pass off morning time off as “doctor’s appointment” or whatever excuse you use.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        ^ This is exactly what I did. It helped that my boss at the time had really started to jump on me for (in her opinion) being anorexic, so I just told her I had an appointment and she assumed it was with a doctor because of my apparently obvious health issues.

        Went for interviews in the morning and changed on the way back.

    2. Shelly574*

      That’s kinda the best solution. Sometimes, I say something like, “I need a long lunch to get an oil change.” Or something of that type which people usually accept. I try not to lie, but I have been in work places where I had no choice.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      I have staged an elaborate dentist drama where I would need lots of follow up appointments. It was probably overkill, but it explained why I kept disappearing for an hour or two only.

    4. Agent Veronica*

      It’s good to have a reason to already have on dressy clothes, like, “it’s date night—I’m meeting my partner at our favorite restaurant after work.” Then you can work around a longer lunch or late start or (maybe best with this story) an earlier departure with low suspicion from those around you. Important note: Actually take your partner out/do the thing that evening! Covers being seen by coworkers, plus is a good way to unwind after interview day.

    5. Beth Jacobs*

      It doesn’t hurt to ask for specific times for your interviewers. Can they do early or late? If you have a long lunch break, is that an option?

      But otherwise, your current set-up is actually the best you can do. When I was interviewing, I would say I’m going to a doctor’s – most of my interviewers had PhDs, so I wasn’t lying :P

  26. OlympiasEpiriot*

    “Perk” is, I think, derived from “perquisite” which means “benefit”.

    So, in our casual sense of the word, when is something a perk? A benefit? Compensation?

    To me, it is all compensation, though perhaps in more or less important forms depending on who is getting it.

    At my firm, we get salary, a 401k, a tiny addition from the firm into our 401k every year, they pay for much of the health/dental insurance, there’s a flex spending account, vacation, paid sick time, paid holidays, and a pre-tax transit/commuting program. When you’ve been here a while and you’re liked sufficiently, you may also be offered a small share of the profits. That is what would normally be referred to as a compensation package, I think. BUT, there are some odds and ends that over time I have come to regard as that, too.

    Like, in our job, many of us often have to be in the field. Literally in a field. Or in a big hole in the ground. If we are lucky, there is a field trailer out of the wet for us to use as an office (shared with everyone else on the site, of course). Even a Conex box is great, although I have to locate a welder to add a hook for my bag so it isn’t on the floor absorbing mud that everyone tracks around. Otherwise, your ‘office’ is your car. If a site is accessible by public transportation, our company rule is you use it, even if there is no shelter on the site and, therefore, you don’t have a car to use as your office. We get to expense transit, mileage when a site is not accessible by public transit, and a rental car if we don’t own one and the site is inaccessible otherwise. We do not get to expense coffee, tea, milk, sugar, or water which at a job site are all things we have to bring in with our lunch unless we are in an existing facility that supplies it. On the other hand, when we are in our home office, all these things are there, to be used, at no charge. What is also available to be used is an easily accessible restroom. I have no objection to portosans, but, they are not actually required in all sites and my work frequently can happen when the project is still at that stage where portosans aren’t present. So, I usually build a relationship with a local diner (and pray that it is super close) so that I have access to a toilet, a place to wash my hands and a dry, flat counter when I can do my paperwork as needed. This costs MONEY! And, no matter what, over the years, I have not managed to get permission to have this reimbursed unless I am far enough away to be considered Out Of Town, in which case, I get a per diem.

    In other words, I pay to be in the field.

    Many times, the people out in the field ‘paying their dues’ are LITERALLY paying. (And, remember, they are frequently at the start of their careers and being paid a lot less than those in the office.)

    >Now, I’ve been here a long (so long!) time and I generally manage jobs. I do my best to make the site setup as easy as possible for my field staff. I have gone to bat (and, yeah, it requires pushing back) for people to have a car on certain jobs when it is theoretically accessible by transit, but the reality is that it would be massively impractical.

    Long after I started, the firm finally began offering an annual field clothing allowance based on how many hours a year you were out in the field. About time. Good work boots, insulated overalls and gloves that do the job (instead of cheezy ones), and proper jackets cost a lot. Up until then, only our hardhats and reflective vests were provided as well as the actual tools required to do our jobs.

    Well, except for one tool. One really basic tool. When I was being interviewed (! I kid you not, this came up !), I was told “[w]e supply pencil leads, but you will bring your own mechanical pencils.”

    So, all of that, which is a “perk” and why?

    1. miyeritari*

      Are you asking which one of these things you get is a “benefit” and which is a “perk”? I’d say benefits are outlined explicitly by your compensation package – PTO, insurance, salary, FSA, etc – and “perks” are not official.

      For example, a perk might be your office has free coffee and snacks you really like.

      If your company provides your mechanical pencils without it being in your contract, it’s a perk; if you say ‘can we include the qualification that mechanical pencils will always be covered by the company?’ in your offer sheet, it’s a benefit.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        What I’m asking is “when does a thing (like the coffee) stop being a perk and become a benefit within context changes in the same job?” Like, everyone is hired pretty much to the same location. The individuals who are literally hired to only work in the field and have no footprint in the office I can count on one hand for my entire time at this firm. So, depending on the work assignment location, staff gets access to some stuff or not. In order to make a field situation relatively comfortable (I’m not talking demanding a trailer and ordering it furnished…see description in orig post), one might have to spend quite a bit extra that one would not have to spend when in the office.

        Also, this is in the US, hardly anyone has a contract. We do have an employee manual. Funnily enough, the mechanical pencil thing is not spelled out in the manual, but, the policy is that the firm won’t pay for them under any circumstances. I once broke a mechanical pencil through no fault of my own on a job site, needed a writing implement, went to the nearest convenience store and bought a mechanical pencil because they were selling some cheap plastic ones with the leads but didn’t have any sharpeners so buying a pack of Ticonderogas would have been useless. I tried to expense it — given the circumstances — even wrote a little asterisked note on the expense sheet explaining context and including the fact the mechanical pencil in that case was cheaper than the pack of 6 regular pencils. Got the sheet returned to me as “Unreimbursable — Company Policy”. (Admittedly, it was a small amount of money, but I was testing the philosophy.)

        1. miyeritari*

          This just sounds like a situation where you’re not compensated for the relevant tools you need for your job. This sucks, but I’ve heard of it plenty.

          For example, I definitely know crappy orgs where all the work is on the computer, but they make you use your own computer. This isn’t a benefit/perk situation.. it’s just a crappy way to run a company and makes your employees feel like you don’t support them.

          This also reminds me of how teachers often end up buying school supplies because schools are underfunded. That’s not a benefit/perk thing, but it sucks, and obviously your kids need pencils. Real pencils, not the pencil metaphor.

          :(

    2. Enough*

      Free coffee seems about it. To me a perk is something extra that is not necessary to do the job. So free or discounted parking, coffee, lunch, gym membership, etc. Or a culture that supports your life. Like flexible schedules.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        By that logic, the 401k is a perk then. It isn’t necessary to do the job.

        1. Specialk9*

          Well if you’re being that technical, then a salary is a perk too :) 401k is part of salary.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            *fist bump back*

            Having periods or UTIs or IBS (etc.) really, really makes a lack of bathrooms really, really suck. One reason I no longer am in that specific part of the field.

      2. OlympiasEpiriot*

        If one is in (for example) in construction and part of a “mobile crew”, there just needs to be a facility within 10 minutes away. See this OSHA interpretation for an example: https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2002-06-07

        Obviously, if it is a true construction site, there’s portosans. If it is something where we will only be there for a day or two, taking some samples, for instance, and then moving along to another site, then, no, a portosan isn’t provided.

        I’m also old enough to have a memory of being on a barge in a river with a drill crew where no portosan was provided…and the owner of the drilling company’s attitude was the crew could just pee over the side. [“Oh, just go during the lunch break when you take the dingy back to the dock. What’s wrong with that?”] I rebelled at that as follows:
        (1) We are on a river in a major metropolis with buildings on both sides with windows! Someone will complain.
        (2) There are probably EPA regs about untreated sewage. OSHA has rules about access to toilet facilities. There are definitely USCG rules about untreated waste from watercraft. And the police have rules about public urination and there are police patrol boats.
        (3) I cannot hold my urine for an entire shift and something tells me the client would find it extremely weird to see a catheter charged to expenses.
        (4) The drillers will not be happy when I start laughing, pointing and taking pictures of them to post on the internet — because this is worthy of such ridicule.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          When I worked in lakes research, I was told the bathroom really was just the lake. The fish pee in it, so can you!

          1. BlueJay*

            “Fish pee in the lake”??? Isn’t it camping/hiking rule #1 to not contaminate water sources or something? (Been a while since I last camped.)

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              Yeah, I thought it was pretty odd that the answer to “but what about bathrooms?” couldn’t be that we boat back every now and then to shore, but apparently that was a difficult request.

              I also did not expect to ever hold a conversation face to face with a coworker as they’re peeing. Thanks to a coworker that would just jump in and swim around to pee, that can be added to my list of experiences I’d rather not have again.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Well, it has some good points, even though I’m inclined to agree with you w.r.t. the things I wrote in the original post. For example: We have very high standards for our work product. In my field, when you’ve worked with someone shady, that counts for a lot. We also have a very good reputation with clients and even our competitors. That’s a nice thing, especially at conferences and when walking into a project meeting.

    5. Specialk9*

      I feel like a perk is a nice bonus that isn’t really necessary, but makes people feel good. Once it’s required it becomes equipment.

      So looking at cars:
      -A cop driving her cop car does not have a perk, it’s her equipment.
      -A salesperson who has to drive around the country can either expense mileage/wear-tear/gas, or get a company car for trips. That’s equipment, not a perk.
      -The person who gets a company car without driving for work? That’s a perk.

      Food and beverages are usually a perk, except in certain cases (RAs who have to live in university dorms and have to eat with residents are working, not getting a perk.)

      Other equipment should be covered. You need insulated coveralls and steel toed boots? Here ya go.

      The pencil thing is beyond dumb. Honestly, that speaks to a truly broken org that is impervious to logic, and kinda proud of it.

    6. Hannah*

      I think of a “benefit” as part of your compensation package that is not salary. Like, 401k, health insurance, PTO, etc. Employers are more or less obligated to deliver on these benefits.

      A “perk” is some kind of extra thing that is not guaranteed or part of your compensation package, but that you happen to get to enjoy as a side effect of being employed by that company. For example, if you worked at a restaurant, and you got a free meal with your shift, that might be a “perk.” Free coffee is also a common perk, or maybe the ability to keep frequent flier miles for personal use. Discounts, either for company products or for other companies that your company has made agreements with, are also common perks. I think it also may be common to have different perks apply to different kinds of jobs in the same company. Like, travelers are able to have the perk of frequent flier miles, but people in the office get to drink the free coffee.

      I don’t think the things you are describing are either benefits or perks, just annoying things about your job. The mechanical pencil thing is just weird if they say they will buy wood pencils but not mechanical ones. But not buying preferred kinds of office supplies, clothing for the job, or reimbursing for your wanting to have a coffee when you are out and about are all pretty normal I think. I mean, it would be nice if they provided these things, but not particularly abnormal that they don’t.

  27. Beehoppy*

    I’d love to hear some stories from folks who are at jobs that they love. You’re engaged in the work, have a great team, supported personally and professionally, following your dream… whatever. I’ve really been struggling at my current position and it would be great to get inspired by people who feel legitimately fulfilled. Deets if possible. Thanks!

    1. anyone out there but me*

      ME!! I absolutely love my current job and the way it is set up.

      Some background: I have decades of experience as a bookkeeper/office manager. I’ve worked for some fabulous people, all small businesses. Usually, it was just me as the sole employee, or one of a very small staff, so I have always had a lot of autonomy. I work best without a lot of supervision and I value being given the freedom to prioritize my own tasks and responsibilities. I am GOOD at what I do.

      Flash back to several years ago. I had a midlife crisis or something and decided I needed to do something to further my career. I took a job in a major city, made a huge move and began managing what was still a small business but the largest I had ever worked with. My boss, whom at first I thought was great, turned out to be a micro-manager from hell, as well as a penny pincher when it came to the office. Over time (I stayed WAY too long) I became responsible for things that I was uncomfortable doing such as social media management, HR, IT…. you probably get the picture. My education and training is in accounting and office admin. I did manage to learn what I needed to do what I was asked, but I always felt like I was flying by the seat of my pants and that everything could come crashing down at any second. And that it would be MY fault the company got into trouble for something. I won’t even go into the unethical practices I found my boss was involved in, just suffice it to say that by that point, I was over-stressed and miserable.

      Then I made another big change. I gave my notice (to which my boss replied, “Ok, I’ll just have you show my husband how to do what you do. It can’t be that hard.” Grrrr. Don’t even get me started.) I sat back and thought about what I REALLY wanted in a job, what I felt my strengths were, what I absolutely would not do! What hours I wanted to work, what sort of flexibility I wanted, what type of BOSS I wanted. Then I started . interviewing. Yes it was kind of scary. I NEEDED a job, and I knew I might have to compromise on some of my wants, but after the nightmare of my former job, I also knew firmly what I would not stand for ever again.

      Which led me to my current position. I work from home as a bookkeeper/virtual admin for a general contractor. He is my only boss and he’s fantastic. He asks for and values my input and expertise in my field. He let’s me know what he needs, what his priorities for the day or week are, then leaves me alone to get things done. He’s available when I call with questions. He does not bother me after hours or on weekends or holidays. Oftentimes, we will get our business talk done and just spend time chatting about our families, hobbies, etc. I have particular hours I must be available, but past that my time is my own as long as my work is completed. And, I am paid very, very well.

      Long post, but if my take away for anyone reading is this: You are your own employer, even when you “work for” someone else. You ultimately get to decide what you will want, what you will accept, what you will tolerate. And if you are freaking miserable, GET OUT. Life is too short to spend any of it working for a total ass.

    2. Anonygrouse*

      I love my job (been here just over a year) and I love talking about how much I love my job, but I usually refrain from too much of the latter because I think it probably gets pretty annoying! So, thanks for the opportunity :)

      My field is fairly niche but some parts of it are getting extremely trendy. My boss’s philosophy about and approach to our work is increasingly unique (more “think slow and build things” instead of “move fast and break things”), but it’s a great fit for me. Also, our work is the kind of stuff that is regularly invisible to and therefore devalued by both front-line staff and higher-ups, but here we are respected and appreciated. Our team is not the friends-out-of-the-office variety at all, but we all get along really well, and have complimentary skill sets. I just feel like everyone’s brain works in a different, interesting way, which makes things fun. There is also a lot of dropping random references but in a fun, genuine, not-snotty way. (One email yesterday referenced Potemkin villages and Catherine the great, a hippocampus/sea horse pun, and some Hungarian philosopher.) I learn a lot just from wikipedia articles I open after meetings.

      I’m sorry your current position is difficult — FWIW, my job prior to this one was the perfect example of a sick system. I slogged it out there 4.5 years (and was at another difficult job for the 4 years before that) before landing here as the result of some serendipitous networking. Good luck finding something better for you!

    3. ThatGirl*

      I don’t know if I *love* my job, but I really like it. I’ve only been here 10 months.

      It’s a fun, well-known company. It’s MUCH closer to home than my last job. I am paid fairly, have some flexibility, good benefits, and some cool perks. Of course, none of that would matter if I didn’t like the actual work. But I do.

      It’s a new position, so I get a lot of say in how it’s going and what I’m interested in doing. My manager is really supportive and thoughtful. My team is good at what they do and helpful. We have a few rough spots, and I don’t love every single task, but overall I’m engaged in the work, I’m excited to do it, and it really feels like an excellent fit.

    4. Tau*

      Me! I’m a software developer and I…
      – get to work on a cool project that is at least trying to make the world a better place (we’re a nonprofit)… I’d rather not go into detail about the industry because I worry about being identifiable but it’s really interesting and has a lot of potential
      – with loads of very smart, experienced people who are working to keep us away from many of the common pitfalls that can make tech work suck. My team is great :)
      – a boss I get on really well with
      – with state-of-the-art/best practice technologies
      – and a good salary and some decent perks

      Although I think at the end of the day, I’m just lucky in that I have something I really enjoy doing and am good at that makes for a lucrative career. I love solving logical puzzles, and programming is basically that writ large. I really enjoyed my work at my last company as well, and that was way more dysfunctional (and the last two points above were definitely not true! I came away with some epic war stories I can use to make other devs blanch). I’ve also had quite a bit of feedback along the lines of “holy crap you’re amazing, can we clone you?” since I started, and although I try not to get a big head about it there’s a certain amount of satisfaction that comes from simply doing something you know you’re really, really good at.

    5. periwinkle*

      It can happen! When I earned my MS and switched careers to something which both intrigued me and played to my strengths, the quality of my life at work went up dramatically. I was happy doing the work and it showed.

      I’ve been with my current employer for 4.5 years, recently moving from my original position to a newly-created team in a newly-created role. There’s no such thing as a dream job, perhaps, but this role pretty darned close as it includes:

      * A great manager who was hired from outside the company and thus is not mired down in the corporate bureaucratic tradition of shoving process rules into everything
      * A small team, with each person bringing a distinct skill set so we can tackle all sorts of projects from multiple angles; despite our different skills we have a common goal and common attitude towards change & uncertainty (“bring it on!”)
      * A role that I get to shape to fit my strengths and interests in a way that supports our mission and projects
      * Time to work on projects of my own initiation – if it fits our mission and I’ve got the bandwidth, great, make it happen.
      * I love research, both conducting it and reading academic journals in my field and related fields. It’s now a part of my job.

      The only real drawback is that I was moved into the team as a lateral transfer, which meant I went from being a little underpaid for my work to being a lot underpaid (and am the lowest paid person on the team as everyone else is at least one pay grade higher than I am). That will need to be fixed soon. They’re paying 100% for my second graduate degree, which is like giving me an extra $15k/year, so I’m not kicking and screaming just yet.

      And to think it all started with asking Alison’s magic question during my second interview to join the company…

    6. KR*

      I work in renewable energy and I have a lot of anxiety about climate change and pollution, so my work really helps me process and work through my eco anxiety. I have a great manager, I work for a very large company that is run well and has a focus on doing the right thing, and I work with a great team. My work is challenging and provides me with plenty of mental stimulation (sometimes too much). I knew nothing about the company when I applied and totally lucked out. I get to travel a lot which is nice. I hope you get some relief at your current job, however that looks to you.

    7. Washi*

      I love my job. I work at a nonprofit agency as a geriatric care manager for Holocaust survivors. Pay is meh, but
      *very very meaningful work
      *lots of days off for Jewish holidays
      *great team where everyone is passionate about what we do
      *at 5 pm we say good night and leave our work at the office

    8. Little Bean*

      I’m not sure if this is actually what you’re looking for but… I used to be in a job I loved. I would some days wake up and be excited to go to work because I loved what I was doing so much (academic advising for college students). It was my first job out of college so there were some things that I didn’t recognize at the time as being kinda dysfunctional but the day to day work was amazing and fulfilling. I had the best boss ever who was supportive, open, kind and good at making big decisions. I loved my coworkers and would spend tons of time just hanging out with them, we were friends outside of work, etc. The reason I eventually left is because my boss left and the job slowly changed into something I didn’t love as much, and I’d also been wanting to relocate for a long time for personal reasons. So I guess the moral of my story is that you can find your dream job but it may not stay your dream job.

    9. Book Lover*

      I think I love my job? I wouldn’t want to work anywhere else, and while not working sometimes sounds kind of nice (and I do love days off) I also can’t really imagine not working.
      I have a nice work environment, mostly really like the people I work with, and feel like I am usually doing something useful that people appreciate.
      I don’t love telling super nice people that they have cancer or ALS (which has been my life the past couple of weeks) but fortunately that is not usually something I have to do.
      I think burnout is pretty common, but at the same time I think most people I work with are overall grateful to do what they do and feel they make a difference.

    10. Princess Scrivener*

      Beehoppy, a few years ago, I would have said I’d given up on finding a rewarding job that matches my skills and passion. I spent 22 years in the military doing HR work, then worked as an executive assistant. Meh. I’ve always wanted to be paid to research and write, but those jobs gave me little leeway to do so. Right time, right place, an out-of-the-box thinker (now my boss, yay!), and tons of on-demand writing for my MA resulted in just about the perfect job fit for me. Three years ago, I interviewed for an opening on my current team, with only marginally-related experience, and a job that didn’t exist at the time is now mine. My team (and slowly but surely, external teams as well) looks to me as the expert, the pay’s not bad, and I’m extremely fulfilled and feel very valued every day. Be hopeful and be inspired!

    11. The Other Thursday Next*

      So I’m an IT manager and I do love my job. It’s not really because of the work we do (I’ve been in this field for a long time so there’s not really anything new that comes my way), but I have a very supportive boss and a team of rock stars. It wasn’t always this way, though. A few years ago, my boss hated me and I managed a team of misfits. Over the years, I developed and strengthened my relationship with my boss (mostly figuring out how she ticked and what things were important to her and meeting those needs). I also got better and interviewing and hiring, and managing out (or firing) people on my team who weren’t a good fit. I invested the time and energy to exert as much as I could to improve where I was at.

    12. Secretary*

      I don’t love what I do, but I love what my job provides me.

      I work as a Secretary and sole admin person at my company.

      -I’m paid very well.
      -I work in an office alone all day, which means no annoying coworkers or kitchen disasters.
      -My hours are 7:30am-4:30pm so I get a lot of time off after work.
      -I’m hourly and my boss prefers that I don’t work overtime.
      -I talk to clients on the phone who are 99% of time extremely pleasant.
      -If I need to come in/leave at a different time there’s no pushback.
      -If I need to take time off it’s not a big deal.
      -My office has a large window with a view of the hills and horizon, so I get to see the sky.
      -I can take breaks/lunch on my schedule.
      -I live 15 min away.

      These are great because I get to check out after I leave work and not think about it again until the next morning. I can devote more time to my family and what’s really important to me.

    13. Anonymous Ampersand*

      I love my job. I work for a government regulator in the UK. I can work from home or the office. I can listen to music or podcasts while I work. I get to play around in Excel. I mostly really like my team and they seem to really value me. I know that my job is contributing in some small way to society (and I can see this more directly than in previous jobs). I love the work I do, the freedom and autonomy I get. And best of all I can see a career path.

      I hope everyone reading here can find this, too.

    14. LadyKelvin*

      I love my job. I work in a STEM male-dominated field where I am often one of the only women in a room full of [old, white] men who see me as a little girl who doesn’t know anything. However, I am working my dream job (or as close to it as possible). Here’s why its a dream: while I am the only women on my team, I am surrounded by mostly young men who value me and my expertise as an equal colleague and often ask me for my thoughts and opinions. They value my feedback and I am listened to and acknowledged. (There are a few outliers, but those are the exception to the rule for sure, here at least). I am doing research on a topic that I am interested in and have the freedom to go to meetings and conferences as I see fit, even if they don’t necessarily fall exactly within my current work. I am paid relatively well and have an excellent benefits package. I get to live in a place that I love and have never lived somewhere where I was so happy. I also happen to work in one of the most diverse places in the country (our state has a majority that is not white) and while my particular team is all white, our office generally reflects the demographics of our state, which is awesome.

      So I know Alison doesn’t believe in a dream job, but I am respected, valued, paid well, and interested in my job which to me is what makes a dream job. This after >10 years of fighting through sexism, sexual harassment, etc. which is still a problem when I leave my office, but for most of the year its not something I have to worry about and it is such a relief.

    15. Nyssa Warglaw*

      I love my job – and I love the truly random way I seem to have ended up where I am! I’m an executive administrator for a major accounting firm; started in reception and worked my way up the ladder through four different jobs, seven different groups, and moved from one end of the country to the other in the process. I never planned to be an admin, but I took time off to reflect on my original chosen career path (I was studying pre-med) and while I was “away” I encountered a series of events that led me to the company I’ve now been with for 17 years.

      Essentially, I took a year off to debate pre-med with myself, got a job slinging sandwiches, got robbed at gunpoint and then by knife (both at work), a friend whose sibling worked for a major firm called in a favour to get me an interview because she felt I needed to get the heck out of where I was, and I landed the job in two days flat (I still contend they were desperate and just needed a butt in the chair). After that, I made the job my own, worked hard to make connections, and rose to the position where I now support three bosses who work across the country for a highly respected group – they love me and I love them!

      My work now is interesting, out of the norm for my firm, and my group is supportive, respectful, and appreciative. I’m part of a great team, my hours are wonderful, and the benefits are very good. I never saw myself doing what I am doing, when I was younger/starting out. It’s an odd and roundabout way I’ve come to where I am, but I’m very glad it all happened, and it turned out for the best.

      1. Anonymous Ampersand*

        That’s a great story! I’m so glad you got out of being robbed any more!!

    16. SparklingStars*

      I really love my job (most days). I’m a technical services librarian in a mid-sized public library system. Most of my job is cataloging new books that the library buys (which is of course awesome because I get to see all the shiny new books and put holds on any that I’m interested in). I’ve also been doing a fair amount of work with our local history department ; I catalog all of the local history books, and I’ve been adding metadata to our online local history collection to make finding information easier. And hopefully in a few weeks I’m going to help them out with an archival project which I’m pretty excited out.

      I really have the most wonderful co-workers in the world, and my supervisor is great also. The other thing I really love about my library system is that we get a generous amount of paid time off – I get 21 vacation days and 14 sick days a year (and I’ve only worked there for 3 years).

      I’m hourly and non-management, so when I leave work at 5 PM I have no work responsibilities to worry about until I come back the next day.

      The only thing I don’t love about my job is the low pay – I’ve been a professional librarian for 10 years now, I have a masters in library science, and I still make less than 40K a year. But I live in a very low cost-of-living part of the country, and I get by just fine on that.

    17. B*

      I work in a research lab at a university and really enjoy my job! My work involves researching the biological underpinnings of a particular devastating disease. I recently changed careers to love to this field and am only a rung above entry level in my group and a bit older than others in this position. It also doesn’t pay great. But all that is immaterial (for now) because I love being here. The work culture here is supportive, intellectually curious, and generally quite pleasant. My commute is easy and the work is immensely satisfying. I do not plan on staying here long-term though, because I want to advance in the field. I plan on staying just long enough that I can build my CV and get accepted to a graduate program in the same field.

      1. B*

        I should say that while the pay isn’t great, I am well-respected and appreciated at my job. I also got to start at a higher salary than others with the same position because of my higher educational qualifications and more years of work experience (in an adjacent field). I do get a yearly bonus — although it’s really small, still it’s nice to be recognized for one’s contributions.

    18. Windchime*

      Me! No job is perfect, and this one isn’t either. But my boss is fantastic; she is supportive and kind while running a tight ship. I know what she expects of me, and she is very fair. She is not a micro-manager. My teammates are grown-ass adults (most of the time), but they are friendly and hard-working. We are in cubicles, but the office has tons of natural light and the temperature is usually pretty good. The pay is fine, but the benefits are amazing and I love having most holidays off. The work isn’t the most challenging I’ve ever done, but my workload is reasonable and I feel a sense of accomplishment at the end of most days. All in all, it’s a good gig and I feel lucky to have found it.

    19. Anon attorney*

      I have had several careers but my current job is great. I am a divorce attorney and my work is both intellectually interesting and emotionally satisfying. I have also essentially redesigned my job so that I do partly client facing work and partly knowledge management/marketing which brings my other skills to the table. My boss and I have a good relationship. I’m senior enough to have autonomy and clout but I don’t have significant management responsibility which o don’t want. Pay isn’t that fantastic, but I can live with that.

  28. ALPA*

    I’m in a field unrelated to my Master’s degree, and have sort-of-not-really been looking for work in my area of study the past 2.5 years.

    I’m short an internship requirement that would make me eligible for more jobs in my field of study and have found the opportunity to do it 6-7 hours a week. The issue is – I have a full time job! Has anyone made this kind of thing work, and how did you approach it with your boss or company? I have a plan for how it COULD work but I feel like it’s asking a lot when it’s unrelated to my current job and will lead to another job at the end of it.

    More specifically – if you work in ministry and have any tips for doing clinical pastoral education with a full time job, I’d really appreciate your insight!

    1. pleaset*

      I haven’t done an internship with a full-time (as in formally 40+ hours/week), but got my boss to let me cut back from full time to 80% (ostensibly 32 hours/week) so I could go to graduate school. And then I continued it for a while in one-day-a-week internships. The grad school wasn’t very connected to my existing job, but my organization is quite fine with staff improving and moving on, as long as they give a long heads up.

      I actually was working more than 32 hour/week but it was doable.

    2. A Teacher*

      I cut back to 32 hours while I student taught for my Master’s in Teaching (Athletic Trainer originally). My employer wasn’t thrilled about it but they let me do it. Went back to 40 hours a week after student teaching was done.

      1. CPESurvivor*

        I did CPE full time so I didn’t have another job. However, I have had plenty of friends and colleagues who have had to do CPE while working. I am guessing you are not in a ministry job right now if you say you are in a field not related to your Masters (MDiv?) One of the nice things about CPE is the possibility of flexible work hours since patients are always in the hospital, however you would have to able to attend the didactic training time when it is scheduled would be my guess? Part of it will depend how flexible your current job is. I would suggest talking to the CPE supervisor to find out about didactic requirements and then talking to you boss about adjusting your work schedule to make it work. Also be aware depending on the program there might be other time constraints. I had to be present at rounds with the nurses and social workers each morning but a lot of programs don’t require it. Also will you have to do overnight/on-call/ER shifts? Those might interfere as well. When you talk to your current boss it will be important to know if you have to do case study reports to the group on Thursday at 2pm, could you take a late lunch/come in early/leave late?

        Also be aware that CPE can be intense and emotionally draining- illness and death are hard no matter what. Make sure you have the space process so that you can function in your current job. You will have homework from it- just make sure you give yourself enough time to get it done since you can get your credits without it finished.

        That said I think it is a great addition to a Master’s and it definitely makes you more “marketable” to churches with trained chaplaincy skills.

  29. Cookie Monster*

    I gave a pretty generous notice period to my company (told them in April that I will be leaving mid-July) because they don’t push people out and were in the process of hiring more staff at the time. At a meeting the week before, they mentioned a couple departures coming up in the fall, and requested we update them if we have concrete future plans as soon as possible so they can plan accordingly. When I gave my 3 month notice, they said they appreciated the advance notice quite a bit, and are happy that I’ll be around to assist with training for the new hires. However, my one year review is June, one that usually comes with a pretty substantial raise and title change. I know the title change doesn’t matter as much, but I still would appreciate the raise. Did I screw myself over there by giving them the early notice, even though they requested it and said they appreciated it?

    1. soupmonger*

      It sounds like you have, sorry. Why would they spend money on your raise when they know you’re leaving in six weeks?

      1. Pollygrammer*

        A plus side might be that leaving a position immediately after a title upgrade can sometimes look a little iffy on a resume.

    2. CTT*

      If the review is in June, would you have even had much of a chance to benefit from the raise even if you hadn’t told them? Raises can take a pay period or two to go into effect. I think look at this as a cost of switching jobs.

      1. Cookie Monster*

        Our raises actually are implemented immediately, and backdated to your one year mark if the review happens after the fact, so I’d get two paychecks with the raise included. It’s not a ton, but as I’m departing for graduate school and not another job, the money is definitely a plus.

  30. Serious Pillowfight*

    I wrote in a few weeks ago about learning my male co-worker with similar experience and time in the field is making 10 percent more than I am.

    More fun has happened since then. I switched from nights to days when an internal position opened, only to open my paycheck and be blindsided by a pay cut in the form of a shift differential that neither my current nor former boss knew about.

    It hadn’t come up for years so everyone forgot about it. I was hired on nights at an hourly rate and thought that was my rate, end of story…only to learn I have another rate I’m paid when I work days. Surprise!

    My wonderful new boss went to bat for me with our department head regarding the surprise pay cut and the salary disparity between my male colleague and me, only to be told what amounted to “Tough luck about the shift differential, but SP wanted the job.” Another slap in the face, as I assumed it would be a no-brainer that steps would be taken to ensure I’m not penalized for taking an internal position.

    Oh, and the reason I’m paid less than my male colleague is due to his having “different” experience than mine: he worked at a company that released a thousand teapots a day while I worked at one that released seven thousand once a week. Never mind that it was the same amount of work (I’d argue I did more work) or that my title was actually higher than his was. Unbelievable.

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      OK, that is completely messed up.

      The shift differential needs to be documented in an employee manual, I’m sure.

      And the “different” experience thing is for the birds.

    2. Schnoodle*

      At least in my state, change in pay that is negative has to be notified in writing 10 days prior to it happening.

      That said (and this may hurt to hear), if you were a valued employee from the big boss’ standpoint, they’d figure it out once you pointed it out. But they haven’t. So there’s your writing on the wall for you, take it as it is and do your best while there, but I’d be looking elsewhere. Leave the pay drama out of it when asking why you want to leave but yeah…they suck. Sounds like your immediate boss agrees with you but only has so much power.

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        I agree. As for notification, this is a situation that applies to everyone. But no one ever switches between nights and days, so everyone forgot about it. Guess I’m just a trailblazer!

        And I am looking elsewhere. Actively. I’ve had similar issues with the big boss for a few years now, though nothing this blatant before.

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        Probably not. I suspect these things are very difficult to prove. He has a reason for paying male colleague more, flimsy or not.

          1. Serious Pillowfight*

            I’m not ready for such a hostile step, especially not while I still work there. The company has been good to me (until now). I’ll think about it. I certainly don’t want other women to be paid less than men for the same job. I feel like it’s so tricky to determine whether there’s an actual issue unless, say, a male and female are both hired for the exact same job straight from college or something.

    4. Darury*

      If it makes you feel any better, it happens to everyone. A few years back, I was working as a Teapot Designer, whch was pretty much as high level as you could get as an individual contributor at my company. We had a Teapot Administrator (day to day work, nothing overly challenging) apply for a position on our team and it included his current salary which was about 20-25% higher than what I was making. Even after bringing this up with my manager, I still only closed the gap by 10%.

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        I just don’t get it. And especially in your case where the salary info was public! Didn’t your company foresee some kind of blowback from other employees who were paid less and did more?

    5. Koala dreams*

      Isn’t that a retroactive pay cut, though, when you only were informed about it through your pay check? Or have I misunderstood something? (Which could have happened, since I’m not from the US)
      Sad to hear about your department head. Good luck finding a better job!

  31. NW Mossy*

    I know we more often hear this update from the other side of the table, but I hired someone this week! It’s my first hire after 4 years in management, and I’m so excited about bringing this person on board. It’s ended up being a win in a lot of ways, for not just my team but the organization as a whole. Woohoo!

  32. Cuddles Chatterji*

    Any tips for initial conversations with a recruiter who bills themselves as a “career agent” for people in your specific industry?

    The recruiter sent me a list of questions we’ll go over regarding what I am looking for in a job as far as title, job function, corporate culture, and compensation. I will also be providing a resume, which I assume in this case should be broad and deep rather than tailored to a specific position–is that a good idea? I am not actively job searching, but if I got a great opportunity, I might be interested. What should I ask this recruiter to see if a partnership would be good for me?

  33. Amber Rose*

    So I was both stressed about the sheer amount of things I’m responsible for and the fact that a newbie was being taught my job. I’ve been so negative I was sure they were trying to replace me.

    But I had a meeting with my supervisor and it turns out she ran the numbers and realized my workload ballooned (we are sickeningly busy) and was just trying to give me some backup, maybe take some stuff off my plate.

    Which I appreciate because with the move and our new toy (we bought a scissor lift and nobody is certified to use it) and the new legislation in June and all the sales, I’m kind of… yeah.

    1. Lumen*

      I’m really glad that anxiety turned out to be misplaced! I feel like that’s why AAM exists… it’s so hard to tell “did this new person get added so I can be replaced, or did my employer recognize that we’re shortstaffed?”

      Happy for you that it was the latter.

    2. KR*

      I had my technicians go through Sunbelt for a lift certificate. It’s osha compliant. They require the techs to have their own self retracting lanyad and harness. An option for you!

  34. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

    I did it! After much thought, I met my manager and asked him to switch me to another project. I couldn’t have chosen a better time, because this week we had major drama that involved a clogged toilet, a whiny coworker, and various racist slurs. It’s going to take some time to find my replacement, but at least I made the request.
    On my job search side, I’m afraid that I applied for a job I was already rejected. On my defense, this time the ad was posted by a recruiting agency and they omitted the company name, so I didn’t join the dots until I compared both ads. It happens.

    2. NoTurnover*

      Hey, my week also involved a clogged toilet, various whiny people, and a racist slur. Of course, I work in a school…

      Props on going after what you want!

      1. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

        Thanks! I’ve been in this project for about a year, and while I like the team I work with, the workplace is so high school like it feels inappropriate. The toiletgate started with a high pitched scream from the whiniest girl in the office (seriously, I’ve heard her complaining of walking two blocks to run an errand), following with criticism and insults to the mysterious toilet clogger while none of them moved a finger to fix it. I stuck a “out of service, do not use” sign on the stall door and the office manager called facilities. Whiny girl and her friends went on and on for the rest of the day, though.

  35. letitno*

    I work as full-time staff on a research grant affiliated with a university. My current title is “Research Associate II”. My work mainly involves data management, analyses, reporting, and dissemination. Very soon I will also take on some managerial responsibilities, and I will have the option of changing my title to “Project Manager” or “Project Director”. Folks in research, would you consider this kind of title change a smart move? I would like to demonstrate upward progression in my resume, but I know that sometimes project managers/directors are seen more as administrative personnel rather than data or research experts.

    1. Murphy*

      Having manager or director in there would be seen as a positive, I think. As long as your resume/CV makes it clear what your duties are, I think you’d be ok.

    2. epi*

      It is a positive IMO. I have worked in academic medicine and currently public health research, and it was pretty standard for people to have meaningless internal job titles with numbers in them, then a meaningful title covered by their position on the project. E.g. being a “research coordinator” according to HR and “deputy director” to their main project.

      The thing about titles like “research associate” is they also convey no information or even erroneous information– I used to hold that title within a hospital in a subfield where it was a much more typical title for drug company reps!

      Take the title change– it does sound higher than your current one. Put your project role in your title too if it conveys more information and write a great position summary for your role. IME, most people know they need to read on to find out what you actually did with a title like that.

      1. letitno*

        Thanks for the detailed response. I see your point. If I get to choose, should I ask for Project Manager or Project Director?

        1. epi*

          Personally I would take director. Sometimes project manager in my area basically just means they were the lead coordinator on that project, but they still could have a lot of supervision. (I know that is different from how a PM title is seen in other industries though.) Project directors are more likely to have subject area expertise and influence on the research direction IME, although maybe not as much as someone in a content specialist role.

    3. heather*

      I agree with your final point – to me, that makes it sound like you are on a support career track rather than an academic research career track. Often the job titles for different stages of a research career are so well established that I’d be concerned your CV might be looked upon unfavourably if it doesn’t conform to them.

      1. letitno*

        Thanks for the feedback! Could you elaborate on the difference between a “support career track” and an “academic research career track”? I am almost done with my PhD and I envision an entire career as research staff – never as faculty or the PI of a grant. I am not sure which track corresponds to my goals.

        1. TreeSilver*

          Not sure which field of research you’re in, but do you envision yourself as handling the myriad of responsibilities to ensure a grant runs smoothly over time? Supervising junior staff, tracking budgets and expenditures, preparing monthly/quarterly/annual reports to funding agencies, etc.?

          Or do you see yourself more as doing direct research activities under someone else’s guidance toward a common grant/project goal? E.g. lab procedures, human subjects recruitment, data analysis?

          1. letitno*

            Thanks, these are good questions. I am in social science research, a combination of education and psychology. I see myself more in the second category you mentioned – direct research activities and data analyses. That said, I don’t want to put myself in a box. I have supervised research assistants before and I can certainly do that in the future. I also know that there are more research positions available that involve the administrative tasks you listed in the first category. I would like to be able to demonstrate some of that experience, which is why I agreed to take on some managerial responsibilities in the near future.

            1. C*

              I’m also in social science research and, based on what you are describing, I’d absolutely say that Project Director is more accurate and is a better title. In my experience, in larger research projects, a Project Manager can be more of a coordinator-type role (keeping timelines in check, etc.). [This is OFTEN the case when a PI just wants to think about his big research thoughts, and not deal with a detail smaller than his ego. The PM is the person who gets stuff done, but gets little credit.] A Project Director signals more decision-making authority and actual management of the research.

              Also, in some grant proposals I have reviewed, past Project Director roles can be listed as “experience as senior personnel” for a new PI trying to get a foothold. Whereas I might be side-eyeing someone listing a Project Manager role in the same way.

              1. letitno*

                Thanks! I am starting to really see the distinction now. Based on my goals described above, would you recommend that I stick with Research Associate II or ask to have my titled changed to Project Director?

                1. C*

                  I’d say go with project director. It shows more responsibility. It doesn’t mean you have to be on track to be a PI, but would seem to me to be a more senior step as a researcher. (I missed your earlier detail of not wanting to necessarily be a PI in the future. So that part of my comment was kind of extraneous.)

  36. Brownie*

    Anyone know if FMLA absences are allowed to be taken into account in employee performance reviews? It seems like this falls under the category of “legal, but unfair” since the job itself is preserved, but I’m not sure.

    I was out on intermittent FMLA for the last 6 months of 2017 for an average of 3-4 days per month while I recovered from a life-threatening medical incident. My boss knew I was on FMLA and I kept them updated on my condition and promptly notified them when I couldn’t work, still making sure that all my tasks were done and even managing to cover all my assigned on-call weeks successfully even though I was still recovering. Then I was informed at year end review that I missed hitting the next performance level (which would have come with a 2% salary increase and chance at promotion) because of my FMLA absences. Paraphrasing the boss’s words (it’s been 6 months now and I can’t remember them exactly) “You would have been at the next level up if it wasn’t for all the sick days. I hope you can work on that next year, you have a lot of potential and I’d like to see you promoted.”

    My doctors have warned me that I may have another incident and this whole FMLA situation is messing with my head as I think about all the the what-if scenarios and do I have to bank all my PTO and the fear/guilt of using any vacation time now to de-stress and maybe I should just forever stay in bed to avoid any possibility of another incident, and, and, and… I don’t want to be penalized again for using FMLA if I have another incident.

    1. fposte*

      I’ll state this cautiously, because this stuff can get pretty granular, but no, I don’t think that’s permissible. DOL says on Fact Sheet 77B: ” Examples of prohibited conduct include:
      Refusing to authorize FMLA leave for an eligible employee,
      Discouraging an employee from using FMLA leave,
      Manipulating an employee’s work hours to avoid responsibilities under the FMLA,
      Using an employee’s request for or use of FMLA leave as a negative factor in employment actions, such as hiring, promotions, or disciplinary actions . . .”

      So if they’re denying you a salary increase because of FMLA leave, I think they’re out of line.

      1. Brownie*

        There might also be an argument that how it happened in my case could be considered “Discouraging an employee from using FMLA leave” since now I’m worried that any FMLA use would negatively affect future reviews and therefore I’m making plans to not use FMLA if at all possible. I did get a salary increase at this last one, just not what I would have gotten had I been in the next level up, so the increase wasn’t technically denied, it was just less than it would have been otherwise. It is a sticky situation with no clear answer which is why it’s managed to stick in my head like a burr for these last 6 months.

    2. Schnoodle*

      They can’t legally make employment decision (which includes performance reviews in my book) based on FMLA usage.

      That said, lots of things are illegal but still done…so…

      Your health is priority, if you’re not abusing the system you’re fine. Hopefully they see that.

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      This is so hard (from a managing perspective) the guidance that was given from HR for one employee that was on FMLA is that “we couldn’t consider it in their performance review”. Ok on the surface that makes sense… but the details got a bit sticky when it came down to performance against goals.

      This individual had quite a few goals that weren’t completed due to to their time away, so ok, we can modify goals or not weight them as heavily but then that left a very few actually completed goals. Let’s just say it wasn’t as easy as the HR “Don’t consider it” especially in a metric heavy performance environment. I should also mention quite a few of the goals were ‘complete this project’ type of goal not ‘achieve % of x’ kind of goal that can be scaled easily. In the end, we figured out how to demonstrate her satisfactory performance against not completed goals without mentioning FMLA- but it wasn’t easy.

      The employee was a great employee whose FMLA was really not an issue, but when it came down to the KPIs and Metrics it was very hard to adjust for the time off.

      So I’m not sure if your performance had the same challenges or if you just have a not so great boss. But it’s not exactly as straight forward sometimes as it seems.

      1. Brownie*

        All my performance goals were met with above average, it was the FMLA absences which dragged me down to average from what I was told by my boss, hence my worry if I have to go back on FMLA. If I hadn’t pushed so hard to get the above average rating, to the detriment of my health while I was recovering, this wouldn’t bother me so much, but I really wanted the above average rating for the shot at promotion.

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          Then I would push back on this with your HR person. Especially if he said it was because of the absences. The only thing that could be fuzzy is if you had a lot of absences prior to requesting FMLA, I’ve seen employees wait too long to request it, and damage has already been done (which could have been avoided if they had the protections earlier).

          1. fposte*

            Yeah, that’s one of the complications I was thinking of. But I would definitely raise this with HR and/or my boss, with that polite “I’d hate for us to get in trouble/I’m just trying to understand” kind of framing.

          2. Brownie*

            Urgh, I did since it wasn’t until after I used all of my sick leave and most of my saved vacation time before I found out I was eligible for FMLA (it wasn’t until I was asking someone in accounting who has a good 20+ years experience with the company how to put leave-without-pay on my timesheet that I found out). All the absences were for the medical issue, but only the last half of them were listed in the time tracker system as FMLA. Good point that if my boss had been looking at the time tracker and didn’t think of all the sick and vacation time taken after the incident as medical leave associated with the later FMLA then they very well could have seen it as a high absence rate.

              1. Brownie*

                It’s less beating myself up and more prepping for future FMLA, especially since I’m scheduled to get a new boss here sometime in the next few months who’s been technical track for their entire career and won’t have a clue about FMLA. While it’s too late now to challenge the performance review I’m MUCH better prepared to handle it should it happen again and if anything comes up in the future I can advocate for myself much better than just sitting there gobsmacked and stunned.

      2. only acting normal*

        Goals like “complete project X” should be proactively managed during the year for *any* legitimate reason that takes the employee away from that project. Otherwise it’s there hanging over the employee all year rather than being reassigned or reprioritised. Leaving it to review time is a bad idea.

  37. Virginian*

    I recently had a second round job interview and for the first time, I feel proud of myself for having done so well in the interview and in the presentation (based on my own self-assessment and comments from others). I can’t wait to hear back and I hope it’s good news!

  38. The Other Dawn*

    If this doesn’t fit into this thread, just let me know. It can be considered work or not.

    As some people may know, I had weight loss surgery over four years ago. For a couple months now I’ve been thinking how it would be nice if I could helps others who have either had it or are thinking of having it. Just something I kind of thought about half seriously. Last night I was working out with my trainer and we started talking about a show, My 600lb Life (maybe some of you have seen it?). We talked a lot about the show, the people on the show, their struggles, etc. He then said, “You should consider counseling people who are looking to have WLS or who have had it and are struggling.” I don’t remember if counseling was the word he used, maybe not.

    So I’ve been thinking more about it. I thought about starting a FB page, or maybe a different blog or something. I’d love to be able to actually speak to people, too. Not as a main career or even paid, but just something in my spare time. How would I even get started with something like that? Has anyone done that and have any tips?

    (If this should be the weekend thread, then feel free to remove!)

    1. The Other Dawn*

      And I don’t claim to have any formal training/expertise. It’s just my experiences and how I dealt with the struggles, what life is actually like on the other side of surgery, etc.

      1. Kelly White*

        Could you contact the hospital or surgery center where you had the surgery and see if they have any kind of outreach program- or would be willing to “host” a meeting?

        They probably can’t refer people to you- but maybe they can refer you to people (know what I mean- because of HIPAA) – or hang up a flyer or something to get your name out there.

        1. nep*

          This is along the lines of what I was thinking.
          Or a local facility like a YMCA? Large community and people who might benefit from your insights.
          Perhaps there would be some liability issues, but they could be addressed with some kind of waiver.

      2. Lefty*

        Could your surgical team make recommendations for local groups? A friend who had such a procedure was required to attend “group” for a few weeks before she committed to the procedure; she met some wonderful folks that helped her and supported her choices when she did not have the same support at home.

      3. The Other Dawn*

        The surgeon I used sold the practice and left the state, and the new practice isn’t really focused much on WLS anymore. I’m actually starting with a new surgeon on Monday, so I’d have to see what their groups look like.

        What’s strange (to me) is that I’m really not one to go to support groups for myself. It just isn’t for me. Or maybe I haven’t found the right one. I’ve tried several and one was quite depressing so I never went back. Another was two people in a group of 50+ dominating the whole discussion no matter what that discussion was. I don’t know. I feel like if I went back to the time when I was considering it (and the earlier years, before I truly considered it), I really would have benefited from someone saying, “I’ve been through it. This is what it’s REALLY like.” Not that I didn’t prep a lot beforehand (they make you jump through hoops), but there really was no one to tell me all the things I’d be going through mentally, even though I attended the required psychologist sessions; that’s not the same as talking to someone who has gone through it and telling me like it really is. I guess what I want is to be someone who says, “Listen, this is what you’re in for and you better make sure you’re ready for it, or at least have a plan in mind.”

    2. Lumen*

      Look into starting a YouTube channel or just a dedicated Instagram. Kids these days, y’know, with them thar vid-ee-oz.

        1. A Heather*

          There’s a whole community of WLS people on YouTube and Instagram. I personally like YouTube because someone can easily come back and watch videos years later and get your information when it’s convenient/applicable to them. Instagram is much more time-sensitive, harder to search and find stuff later. InstaStories are nice and all, but not so helpful if someone is starting the process a year after you talked about it… I guess I can see that would be more like a support group, where as YouTube would be more like blogging (vlogging!) that someone can refer to later when they’re having the problems/struggles you’re talking about in the video.

    3. DiscoTechie*

      Nothing specific, but something I’d be interested in as I just made the decision to start the investigate the process for myself. (Now reading your blog…)

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Aw, thanks. :)

        I think no one can be totally prepared when going through this, since everyone has a different experience (physically and mentally), but I think it’s not impressed upon people enough beforehand that there has to be a total lifestyle and mindset change in order to be successful. It also depends on the bariatric program itself–they are wildly different from each other. The new surgeon I’ll be seeing actually has pre-ops take a tour of the hospital and people have to go to nutrition classes before surgery. My surgeon didn’t do anything like that. I really would have benefited from the nutritional classes.

  39. DogMama*

    Hi all!

    I had a second Skype interview yesterday that went insanely well! I have a third Skype interview today with the president of the company and the hiring manager (this’ll be the third Skype interview with the hiring manager) – does anyone have any tips for questions to ask? I feel like I’ve asked all my good ones already and all I really have left is to ask the president what her favorite part about the company is (which I’ve asked everyone).

    Also, side note, one of the questions I asked (What is the difference between someone that does great in this role vs someone that just does okay?) went over INCREDIBLY well with the three people I interviewed with yesterday. Just in case anyone wants to steal that one ;)

  40. Goya de la Mancha*

    Marketing for people in non-marketing jobs – Avoiding over saturation of advertising/promotions?

    In my line of work we put out informative/educational programs for the community all year round. We put out newsletters/brochures with all of these programs listed about 3 times per year. A lot can vary the response we get, sometimes it’s the day/time that doesn’t work, sometimes it’s target group (Program A doesn’t appeal to the 12-14 crowd, but we have had numerous calls about a similar program for the 25-35 group.)

    Unfortunately, people only seem to respond in large numbers when we send out individual flyers for EACH of the programs. Which sucks for us because it’s a lot more work/time involved – but also for the public because they become inundated with flyers, which often leads to people treating it like SPAM mail – we all know how we feel about one more piece of paper in our lives…

    We can’t really prioritize the programs (send a flyer a specific program only) as running these programs is “our job” so we want people to attend for all the things, not just the one thing.

    Tips/ideas/tricks to get people to visit these 3 newsletters/brochures instead of doing individual flyers. If not, any way to get away from doing a flyer for Each. Individual. Program.

    1. DC*

      Can you hit the middle ground? More than just 3 newsletters, but not individual flyers?

      For example, if you have 3-4 programs along one “theme” or “track” they get one flyer, and another track gets another flyer, etc. Folks don’t have to take time leafing through the brochure, and can throw out the tracks they aren’t interested in but easily see the ones they are.

    2. NeverNicky*

      Segment your data. If you know program A goes down well with X age group – mail to that group. Same if B works best with Y group.

      Yes it will mean individual flyers but smaller and more relevant mailshots which should get better response rates and fewer deletions/unsubscribes.

      Also you might want to do some expectation management – why do you want people to attend everything and not just a few prefered events? Unless the events are something like mandatory training people have lots of competing demands on their time. They are more likely to come to more events if evert contact is of something they are interested in.

      1. NeverNicky*

        Hit send too soon…

        Yes it does mean more work for you but basically advertising/marketing/PR means doing the work so your audience doesn’t have to and all they need to do is say yes ( to the purchase, donation, behaviour change)

  41. MassholeMarketer*

    If I have an interview that I have to do a presentation at and the hiring manager says I’ll have a few group interviews, do you think they mean panel interviews or actual group interviews with other job candidates?

    Really hoping it’s the first one…

  42. NewBuilding*

    If you were building the physical space for a call center from scratch, what would you like to have/not have?

    I’m trying to figure out if there’s a way to not have it be an open office plan (both because of noise and germs sweeping through like wildfire), plus any other general office improvements the wise AAM comment folks might have ideas for. I’ve already searched through the archives for healthy workplace ideas and articles about how much open office plans actually suck (cheap to build, bad for productivity/health).

    1. Manders*

      If there’s some way to have natural light without being an open office, that would be awesome. Anything noise-dampening would also be a plus–so many call centers are designed to cram as many people in with no thoughts about noise. Also, if this is a high turnover call center, make sure your desks and chairs will fit people with a wide range of heights and weights because you won’t be purchasing new furniture for each person.

    2. Brownie*

      Ventilation and workstation placement. I’ve been in far too many places where the desks are arranged in the same grid system as the ventilation and that leads to things like my current situation where I’m getting the breeze from 3 lined-up-in-a-row vents all day long and therefore freezing while my coworker 4 feet away out of the line of the vents is peeling off layers and complaining of the heat. It drives the employees and the space management folks up the wall since it results in microclimates the size of a small cubicle and ensures that everyone is constantly complaining about the temperature.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Noise is a huge factor! If your office is going to have teams that aren’t phone-based as well as those that are, really push for having the phone teams isolated from high-noise or high-traffic areas of the site. I used to sit near the door to our cafeteria at OldJob, and about 12-2 every day was an utter nightmare for me because of the noise.

      1. periwinkle*

        +1 to this. When I did telephone tech support, we had carrels (like at a library) instead of cubicles, with half-height walls between the desks and full walls along the back of the desks. For our team this worked reasonably well because we had to consult with each other frequently, but noise carried at all times. For call center employees working independently, the half-height walls are unnecessary and distracting.

        Ideally you would configure the room to minimize both external noise (like a cafeteria or auditorium) and internal noise (use higher cube/carrel walls with sound-deadening material).

        Also, call center employees are basically stuck at their desks the entire day. Make sure the room is properly ventilated and that those vents are CLEAN. At our tech support center, the vents were full of mold, as was discovered when multiple people fell ill. Don’t do that.

    4. Schnoodle*

      Have a nice little outdoor area for lunch where people can eat when it’s nice out or read. Take in some Vitamin D.

    5. Secretary*

      I worked in a call center, a couple things that made things amazing:

      -Ergonomic stuff on keyboards because we were documenting calls all day.
      -Headsets with non-coiling wires, volume control and a mute button.
      -Comfortable chairs/exercise balls
      **A Janitorial staff who kept everything clean at all times.

    6. sheep jump death match*

      Things I liked about my call center:
      -Full-height cube walls with nice fabric panels that you could pin work references to
      -Good phone headsets so we could type and talk at the same time
      -COLORFUL WALLS AND BIG WINDOWS. We did boring stuff all day. They painted some accent walls at employee request. It was nice to look at and nice to know they would do stuff like that.

  43. Murphy*

    I’ve been asking my boss for information for the past two weeks and he hasn’t gotten it to me now to the point where now projects are delayed. We haven’t been in the office together much lately, but he’s usually very responsive to email. (I was out of town, kid was sick, he was out of town.) This info did not require a face to face. I sent him multiple reminders, included the pertinent information on my end every time, and he just refused to give me the info. This is the kind of project I do all of the time, so it wasn’t an unusual or difficult request.

    How do I handle this? I can’t make him answer, but this is really frustrating.

    1. Happy Lurker*

      I am in the middle of the same experience with a vendor. I decided to put it off for today *mental eye roll* and make more calls on Monday. They did the same thing to me last year at this time. I ended up waiting 60-75 days for 20 day items.

      I am chalking it up to the hell of May with family/children, I swear it is only second to December. It’s wonderful to see so many great activities, etc. but the commitments are non-stop. Next week is Memorial Day, a huge kink in our work load leading into our busiest time of the year.

      Good luck Murphy. Sorry I have no idea how to get your boss to respond, but I feel your pain.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      My former boss is the same way, unfortunately, and it happened ALL THE TIME. Two weeks is a really long time to ignore your request/refuse to give you information. Can you go over his head? I’m sure his boss would love to know that he’s not supporting his direct report…

      1. Murphy*

        He reports to the VP equivalent of our unit, so I think that would be too much of an escalation.

    3. LKW*

      In your request did you outline the impact “… if information is not received by date x then initiation of next step will be delayed by xxx days.” ? Did you outline the cost of that delay “… we will have the team sitting waiting for xxx days at a daily cost rate of $xxx dollars.” or “… the delay in production will result in loss of xxx days estimated at $xxx?”

      basically – tie it to numbers that’s what people care about. When the project is overrun then you can point to the email and say “I explicitly outlined the impact to bottom line.”

      1. Murphy*

        I didn’t. These kinds of project are the bulk of my job (approximately 20 such projects in the past 10 months) so it was a routine request that usually doesn’t take more than one reminder, if that.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I can’t tell if he just did not answer you or if he flat out said, “I refuse to answer these questions.”

      I would put the punchline in the email title.”Projects A, B, and C are behind schedule”
      Good morning, Boss.
      I hope things are okay by you. If there is something you need me to help with be sure to let me know.
      I am in a tight spot here. Our projects are falling behind because we do not have Information X, Y and Z, which you said you would send. Since this is totally out of character for you not to pass info along, I am concerned that you are having difficulty.
      Please contact me on this by X day or I will check with others to make sure someone knows you are okay.

      Sincerely,
      OP

      Basically- it’s out of character for him not to answer, you are concerned so you allude to wondering if you should call for a welfare check.
      What I like about this is that it does not cause arguing. Very few people are going to get mad if you ask them if they are okay. AND he will feel he has to answer or you will send the police for a welfare check or the St. Bernards with kegs strapped around their necks or similar.

      OTH, if you have a phone number for him then give him a call. Start the conversation by saying, “Are you okay?” This will allow you to work your way into, “I know you know we need AB and C, so when I never heard from you. I got worried.”
      At which point, he can say, “I must have sent it to the wrong person because I sent it twice and could not figure out why you kept asking.” Or he can say, “I just got my computer back from repair and I was just going to answer you.”

    5. ..Kat..*

      “In order not to fall behind on project X, if I do not hear from you by date Y, I will be implementing Z. “

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        I don’t know – If you take away the name attached to it, it looks pretty standard to me in the ways of experience/school/achievements.

    2. SoCalHR*

      Alison has covered this question before, so you may be able to find her answer in the archives. Generally, if you’re new in the professional world, keep it to one page. Mine, after about a decade and a half, has now tipped into two pages. It was a struggle to allow this to happen because of the old adage, but its definitely necessary at this point for me. So overall, I would say use that as your guide – what is vitally necessary to include on this resume, and if it ends up being two pages, so be it.

    3. Red Reader*

      Anybody considering hiring Elon Musk probably doesn’t really need to see his resume anyway. :-P

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        I want to meet the Hiring Manager who has the cojones to ask for it though ;)

    4. BananaRama*

      Echoing and adding to Emily S. I don’t think we should view his resume as a good resume period. The picture and the bar chart alone would have me raising an eyebrow. Also, do I really want to hire someone who is an admitted micro-manager? And, at least in my field, interests aren’t common on a resume.

      I do agree that too many people make resumes needlessly long. The person with zero experience who has 4 pages, the person with 2 years with a page and a half that is mostly white-space and wide margins come to mind, and the person with 20+ years of a variety of experiences crammed into two pages. It’s a hard balancing act for people with long and varied careers.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        “Also, do I really want to hire someone who is an admitted micro-manager?”

        Same thought! I kept thinking how miserable it would be to work under him if he’s such a micro-manager. I mean, we can’t really argue with his results too much, but there’s only so much “peering over the shoulder” I would be able to put up with from my superiors.

      2. Canarian*

        The entire idea of that bar graph is puzzling – how am I supposed to read that and what am I supposed to take away that a non-graphical listing of skills wouldn’t tell me?? But yeah, listing “micromanaging” as a skill or competency is for sure the worst part.

    5. Bex*

      After 15 years, my resume has crept to 1.5 pages. But the most critical info is all on page 1.

  45. Job Searching Novice*

    I’m starting to look for jobs for the first time in a decade thanks to a recent move from a major city to a smaller town. I’ve been in management for the past few years at my organization managing both a daily and long term operation as well as a team of employees. As I job search I’m not sure if I have imposter syndrome or if I need to upgrade my training to something “legit” versus all the in house training I’ve received over the years. Promotions at my company are experience and track record based as formal education isn’t required. I’m debating going back to school and exploring a business admin diploma but I’m not sure if that would suffice, or, on the other end of the spectrum, if it’s necessary. I appreciate it may depend on what jobs are available; I don’t currently have a target job in mind but would like to land another management job in my next role. If anyone has suggestions/guidance/stories about facing a similar situation it would be appreciated!

    1. Boredatwork*

      If you’re older (sounds like you might be) make sure you really work on your resume. What you used 10 years ago might not be up to current standards. As for the education, it really depends on what’s the standard in your field. If every other candidate has an MBA, then you may get passed over. That said, unless you’re going to a reputable school, getting a degree is a total waste. Allison has a lot of advice on why for-profit schools are a bad idea.

      1. Job Searching Novice*

        Thanks Boredatwork! I’m 33 and recently refreshed an embarrassingly out of date resume. I don’t imagine that there are a lot of MBA graduates in the area that I will be applying in, but being new to the area that would be speculation. I don’t think that a full scale MBA would be necessary right now but might take a few intro courses in areas I’m not familiar with.

  46. Karo*

    I feel like this has been covered recently but can’t find it. I’m hoping against hope to get a job offer soon, and I’ve only been through this process once before, more than a decade ago, and I didn’t know what I was doing then, either. So, what kinds of questions should I be asking/things should I be looking for to make sure I’m not getting hoodwinked? I’m specifically thinking of benefits, but any advice is appreciated!

    1. Schnoodle*

      Really depends on job/industry/culture.

      But some basic things to think about:

      Benefits (including costs, deductibles)
      PTO
      Schedule

    2. Slipjack*

      Workspace (if it’s the type of job where it matters/you have some say)
      Professional development budget (again, if applicable)

  47. Katniss*

    I started a new job this week and am really excited!

    However, my boss is out today and because I’m waiting on access to all the networks and sites I need, there’s not much that I can do that’s useful. I’ve already asked coworkers if I can help with anything and was told no. Is there anything else I should be doing to be or at least look useful? I’d feel badly reading articles (I have access to academic databases here!) or even my actual Kindle for huge chunks of time but it really does seem like there’s nothing work-related I can do at this time.

    My boss literally told me that it’s okay if I’m “just doing nothing” during downtime when I don’t have access, BTW. In a friendly way, not in a mean “just sit there like an inactive robot” way.

    1. Pollygrammer*

      I’d suggest watching training videos or technical tutorials, and getting as familiar as possible with the company’s website.

      1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        +1 This is exactly what I did while they were setting up my accounts at my current job. I did also take breaks to check my personal email, google industry terms I wasn’t familiar with, fall down the occasional wikipedia-hole, etc. Just no social media, since it’s hard to look busy on Facebook.

    2. Susan the BA*

      I’d say go ahead and read some articles! But also see if your company has access to some kind of training database like Lynda.com where you can watch/”take” courses.

  48. Goya de la Mancha*

    Anyone in the Aquatics realm?

    Are you suffering with the lifeguard shortage? Do you have incentives that seem to work better at getting employees? If not, what’s your secret!

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        Definitely across the US, don’t know if anywhere else in the world. Rural areas are impacted less as they often have fewer locations/needs for lifeguards. We’re still 10 short just to meet our minimum requirements – and that’s not taking into account that most of these kids won’t be able to work all their shifts.

    2. CDM*

      not anymore, but I just noticed this week that Toxic Oldjob is putting out roadside signs (like campaign signs) advertising jobs for lifeguards and swim instructors. Something we never did in the years I worked there. Apparently, per the website, they are also paying for LG certification if you commit to working 6 months. Judging by the job postings, they are having pretty significant staffing issues these days. Interesting.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        Yeah, it was a HUGE deal to get a job as a lifeguard when I was growing up. You actually had to apply and interview – where now it seems like if you’re certified, you’re hired.

    3. Juney Junipero*

      I used to lifeguard in HS/college, and I’ve read that high schoolers are entering the summer job market less often nowadays for a variety of reasons (SAT prep classes, hourly jobs being filled by older or immigrant workers, etc: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/record-low-unemployment-doesnt-mean-teens-will-find-summer-jobs-this-year-2018-05-07).

      Do any of those reasons seem to describe the situation where you are recruiting? Seems like they would probably require different solutions.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        It’s sort of a perfect storm: Certification/Re-Cert costs are going up, the certs are only valid for shorter periods of time, Youth in general not working as much, Youth you WANT to hire are the ones overly involved in other activities, it’s a part-time gig (no benefits), so few people over the college age will even bother.

        We’ve raised our wages again this year (and we’re actually on the high end in our state for the pay), and have a bonus system in place for the end of this season. Aquatics/Pools have always been a losing game as far as revenue goes, but it’s one of those quality of life things that most communities want to provide for their residents. A lot of communities are getting to the point of cutting hours or closing the pools/lakes completely because they can’t staff.

        1. CDM*

          hmm. I also noticed that the cert course cost at Toxic OldJob was DOWN from what we charged when I left, five years ago. I would bet that’s a combo of trying to attract staff (we got to evaluate potential guards during class and encourage the better ones to apply for jobs) and being able to use the new hybrid course format, which ARC was just introducing back then. So they aren’t paying the instructor as much for a class with 7 fewer hours. I vaguely regret letting my LG instructor cert lapse (not that I could have realistically retained it after I quit).

          Hourly jobs being filled by older and immigrant workers should mean that teen with reasonable physical ability who want jobs would be looking for jobs like lifeguard that are less likely to be filled by non-teens. I wonder if parents are doing slightly better economically, that more teens are choosing to not work than five years ago when the economy was worse? One local McD has resorted to posting sign in the drive-through that they’re willing to hire 15-year-olds. (I don’t know, my teens both work, though the 15 year old is paid via barter)

          1. Hamburke*

            My daughter (16) doesn’t work but she does a lot of community volunteering and is taking a class over the summer. Her boyfriend works at a restaurant but gets so few hours, it’s almost not worth his time (1 shift a week). He’s a good worker and personable so I was confused. Turns out, this is pretty common in our area save a handful of places. Our community pool hires mostly college kids bc they do their training in May during school hours. Said boyfriend worked there last year on concessions but the 3rd party concessions vendor pulled out 2 weeks after Memorial Day so they ended up closing concessions. It’s disheartening to see so many high school kids have this much trouble getting a summer job.

  49. Annie Moose*

    Let’s hear some pleasant workplace stories! What’s the nicest thing that happened this week?

    My manager bought our entire team ice cream this week. Really, really nice ice cream, to boot. I felt so bad for the poor shop workers, though, when twenty people flooded into the tiny store… we barely fit inside! (don’t worry, everyone was patient and we tipped)

    1. Red Reader*

      My department is taking anyone who wants to go to a professional sportsball game next week, on the clock and tickets provided.

    2. Amber Rose*

      We had a BBQ at the beginning of the week. My boss hauled the thing out of storage, fired it up and made a small army’s worth of smokies for everyone. He does that from time to time when the weather’s nice.

      At the same time, I gathered up all the garbage electronics and we had a group come in and take them away. All the proceeds from scrapping them go to a charity that works with homeless kids, which is a nice feeling because we literally had like six huge bins of old laptops, circuit boards, towers, monitors and wires/cords. So they probably got a decent amount from us. :)

      Plus I got a bunch of misc. compliments from people this week which is just generally nice. It’s been a good week overall.

    3. selina kyle*

      New boss brought in fancy bakery muffins to celebrate a couple folks in the office getting master’s degrees last weekend. It was nice and a good way to start the morning.

    4. PX*

      My boss also bought us ice-cream! He’s pretty cool. And for some reason I also love the fact that at 5:03pm he was leaving his office like: Weekend! The sun is out! Everybody go home!

  50. Marion the Librarian*

    How have you managed to stay motivated at work during a time of major transition where goal, priorities and expectations keep changing every week?

    I’ve been in the position for a 1 1/2 years. 6 months in, my two other co-workers in the department resigned and I was by myself for 3 months while we hired their replacements. There were lots of retirements in other higher up positions and it kind of felt like a mass exodus.

    We have a director in another city about 2 hours away who has been absentee since I started. She is aware of her blind spot so the cycle goes: doesn’t respond to email for two weeks, apologizes, micromanages for one week, repeat. My local team still hasn’t found a good way to communicate even though we are all in the same area, and I know that has to do with our director not setting a great example when the two others started.

    Since the year started, our goals as a division have changed twice, and we know they will change a third time today after a presentation from the new ED who is unveiling his strategic plan today. I’m optimistic of his new changes, but not sure how to stay motivated as it will take some time to see these changes take effect.

    So, how do you stay motivated when your goals become moving targets and your priorities appear and disappear at the drop of a hat?

    1. Slipjack*

      Oh man, that’s my life. The biggest way I’ve stayed sane was to just treat everything as a learning experience, and know that pretty much everything you do has some applicability (even if you don’t know what it is yet).

      At my last job, my team and I spent 6 months of several people full time on a giant report… which was shelved because management priorities changed. Lo and behold, a year later we started a project on an adjacent topic and were able to use almost the entire report.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. I shifted,, it stops being about the company and starts being about keeping my immediate boss happy. I also shifted my attitude, I got paid if I did X but I also got paid if I did Y. It did not matter, I still got paid. If you think about it, our goals are never really X or Y to begin with. Our baseline goals are to stay employed and do the best each day. We don’t see if often but companies can change course and those who do not change probably won’t stay with the company.

      I stayed at one job for 10 years and the job was day and night different from when I started. Everything changed, absolutely everything. Some changes were good and some were bad. I did notice that a lot of the old problems went away and that was a form of relief as new problems seemed easier somehow. The job went from being brutal to being rough, we exhaled a bit.

      The other thing to think about is job security. This is almost more important than all the changes. Do you think they will always have work for you? Do you think they are stable? Have you read their recent financials? It could be that this is not an attitude problem, it could be that you are skating past warning signs and you actually need to move on.

  51. Manders*

    Ok, this is a really minor issue on the scale of workplace problems, but what’s the ettiquette when your building has a janitorial service that’s constantly cleaning items you need to use? I’m in one of those trendy coworking spaces, and there’s a full-time cleaner who does a frequent circuit of the building emptying trash cans and wiping down surfaces.

    It’s cool that the building’s dedicated to keeping the space clean, but it means that several times a week, I’m stuck hovering near her holding trash as I wait for her to finish changing the liner of the only can in the area. Do I wait several minutes for her to finish? Do I throw my wadded up paper towels into the bag she’s holding? Do I walk out of the bathroom with trash in my hands to find a different can? Again, super minor issue, but it happens several times a week and I’m an awkward penguin.

    1. Happy Lurker*

      I would greet the worker and ask if they mind if I throw my trash in the bag they are taking away. That is what I do at public venues when I am in that situation. Maybe it would feel strange in a work situation though.

    2. Anono-me*

      Something sort of similar kept happening to me . I just asked my coworker what her preference was. (She prefers trash in the old bag, unless she has already tied it up.)

    3. essEss*

      I have a similar problem. Our office does all these nice perks like cutting up fresh fruit trays, supplying water with lemons and cucumbers, multiple fancy coffee/cocoa/tea dispensers, frequent leftover snack buffets, etc… but EVERY time I go to the communal office kitchen to clean my coffee cup, I can’t get to the sink because they are washing fruit, or prepping the water, or soaking/cleaning the coffee maker parts, or cleaning the area or…. I don’t want to complain because these are all nice things to have available, but I’ve gone into the kitchen 3 or more different times in a day to try to wash my coffee cup and haven’t been able to use the sink at any time.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Why not just ask, “Do you want this in the old bag or shall I put it in the new bag?”
      If she is working with one can and there is another can fairly close then I would just use the other can.

  52. HRH The Duke of Coriander and Gomasio*

    Had an initial phone interview this week with a top tech company (think Google or Facebook). 10 minutes into the call the recruiter mentions whether I’ve used a specific software before, as it was a big part of the job. This software was nowhere in the job description. She ended the interview abruptly after I said I didn’t have experience in it, but am willing to learn. Left me with a bad impression and a big waste of time considering I spent days preparing.

    1. Irene Adler*

      I’m sorry.
      Had a similar thing happen to me. They asked for a skill not even mentioned in the job description (auditing). My response was that I’d had very little experience in auditing but had earned audit certifications and was very interested in utilizing what I’d learned. I would have put this into the resume had I known this was a skill they were looking for.

      End of interview.

      I think interviewers do this to end things when they’ve decided you aren’t a good fit.

      At least you found out now that working there might not be all could be. Disillusioning isn’t it?

  53. beanie beans*

    I’m interviewing with a company where my small team would work in a shared workspace (WeWork/CoWork).

    Curious to hear how other people like those types of office environments.

    For some reason, my mind wants to know if kitchens better or worse than a typical office?

    1. ginkgo*

      Your mileage may vary, but I worked in a WeWork (in San Francisco) and loathed it. It felt like people were always battling to use the common spaces (probably a direct result of companies cramming too many people into their private offices, so I sympathize, but it stressed me out). Ours was dog-friendly (I’m not sure if they all are?), which was delightful because dogs, but not so delightful when the dogs would roam free with no owner in sight, bark constantly, and pee and poop in stairwells and on the public deck (seriously). I was also not a fan of the muzak in the public areas and the bathrooms.

      For all that, though, the kitchens were fine…

    2. C*

      I found it depends on how much space / what kind of space the company pays for. When I was in a co-working space, some of the companies (not mine) seemed to have spacious areas that looked/felt kind of like a private, open-plan office.

      My company crammed three of us in a narrow glass walled “office” with a bench-style desk. The same space was very comfortably used by one person, and quite reasonably shared by two. Three was awful (and I think technically breaking the rules. I called in “the incubator,” not because of ideas, but because of germs.

      The kitchen was actually fine / very much like a normal, respectful office. Privacy was the hardest part. You could reserve conference rooms, but they were not sound-proof at all. Also, there was the “who reserved this room?” issues — but that was also not much different than a big company with limited meeting room space.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      I really enjoy working from WeWork. I have a dedicated desk in a shared office (so there are 4 of us all from different companies working in an office). I like being able to have brief small talk with people each day, but still have the benefit of a fairly quiet, private space. My office is disproportionately non-profits and social ventures, so we really don’t have any of the weird dynamics that I’ve heard of in the WeWorks in other cities, where people are always trying to sell their services. We mostly just have a helpful group of folks who are always willing to give ideas and suggestions if asked.

      In my experience, the kitchens have been great. Ours is pretty well-stocked with coffee, tea and cream/sugar all the time, cleaned each day, and in good working order. I haven’t run into any issues with people stealing food or anything like that. I also haven’t had issues with waiting for the microwave or anything like that.

    4. beanie beans*

      Thank you! I just found out we’re scheduling the next interview at the space, I’ll be able to get a feel of the work environment a little bit I hope!

      As I write this, I do a 360 of my current desk and hear a coworker letting out a belch going into the men’s room near me, hear two coworkers having what they think is a private conversation about another coworker in the copy room by my desk, see the blinds closed at the one person who has a window desk, and see the dust bunnies gathering on the cubicle walls and floors because our office is cleaned so poorly. Almost anything feels like an upgrade at this point.

  54. Applesauced*

    My husband moved into a new role about a year ago – he used to design chocolate teapots, now he’s coding the website to sell the teapots – he’s getting good feedback and seems to being doing well, but this is still fairly new; a lot of things he has to learn by doing, and he used to be able to get help from other coders when he’d get stuck.
    The company isn’t doing great, they had a layoffs a few months ago (they claim that was needed because of a bad quarter and that things are getting better). On top of that people on his team have left for new (more stable) jobs and haven’t been replaced – suddenly he is the only person in his office coding the sales aspect of the website.
    He is preparing to look for work (getting resume and website in order) but in the mean time he wants to ask HR for a raise since he’s now covering all the sales coding alone and is getting SUPER stressed about the added workload.
    The tricky parts are that he’s doing well but still learning, and the company is just OK financially, not great. How would you word a raise request in that situation?

    1. AliceW*

      I’d indicate that since my workload and responsibilities have increased substantially given the recent layoffs and departures, that I would like to discuss the possibility of an increase in my compensation. I’d just be straightforward. Of course, I would first do my due diligence and make sure I knew what the market rate was for my position and make sure to ask for a specific percentage raise if I have determined that I am indeed underpaid.

  55. Clueless Parent*

    Hello – my 18 year old son got his first summer job unloading trucks. I immediately wanted to give him some good advice, but blanked after 3 things. I hunted on Allisons page, but I don’t think I looked up the right phrase.
    Does anyone have any sage advice?
    Mine was:
    – be 15 mins early
    – ask questions if you don’t understand
    – don’t talk politics or religion

    Thanks!

    1. SoSo*

      If he finds he has free time between tasks, ask if anyone needs help or look for things to stay busy!

    2. strawberries and raspberries*

      Do your best to learn and remember peoples’ names. Don’t refer to your colleagues as “the guy” or “the lady.”
      You can take breaks, but don’t look like you’re checked out or have nothing to do. If you’re done, let someone know and ask if there’s anything else you can help with.
      If someone else makes an inappropriate joke or says something off-color, you don’t have to laugh because they’re senior to you.

    3. Lumen*

      Stretch, hydrate, and remember there is NO ONE who is ‘too unimportant’ for him to be polite and respectful to.

    4. Lindsay J*

      More warehouse, etc, specific than general.

      Wear clothes you can move around in comfortably, but that fit in the dress-code.

      If the company provides guidelines for safe lifting, follow them. (If they don’t provide guidelines, look them up online or somewhere similar.)

      Use provided safety equipment and follow safety rules, even if other people don’t. If there’s an incident, “Well nobody else does that,” won’t serve you well.

      Stay hydrated and eat decently so your body has fuel for long days.

      Make sure you’re well rested.

      Do what your boss asks how they ask you to do them (unless it violates safety rules or general ethics) at first. Once you’ve been there awhile, if you see things you can make better or do more efficiently you can ask the boss about them. But at first, it’s better to observe and learn why they’re doing things the way they do them. Don’t go off-script and just do something because you think you’ve found a better way, when it could wind up being dangerous or creating more work for everyone in the long run.

      Find out who you should go to (it might be in the handbook, mentioned during orientation, or be on the company’s intraweb) if you see or are asked to do something inappropriate (sexual harassment, ignoring break and overtime laws, being urged to do things that aren’t safe in the interest of getting things done quickly, etc).

      Always communicate with your direct supervisor if you’re going to be absent, running late, going on break, leaving for the day, etc, at least until you see what the norms are there.

      1. Clueless Parent*

        All the responses are greatly appreciated. I totally went blank this week. My head is stuck in prom/graduation/can I use the car spin cycle!

        Lindsay J – the warehouse specific advice is priceless. Thank you!

        1. Razilynn*

          Communication with the supervisor is key. Make sure he knows who he needs to call to report a sick day, and if he needs to follow-up with anyone after the fact. Right now I’m a contract/temp employee, so I don’t have any PTO, but I can file with my agency for state paid sick time; if I don’t fill out and send in the form, I don’t get paid.

          And if he needs a day off, non-sick/vacation day, makes sure he asks in advance. He should probably ask if there is a policy regarding what “in advance means” as some companies may think a few days is fine while other want at least 2 weeks for scheduling purposes. He should also confirm if HE needs to find coverage for the day to be approved, or if the manager does that.

    5. WellRed*

      Keep his phone put away. (I realize not all teens are glued to their phones, but I’ve seen enough peeking at them while at work that it bears mentioning).

      2. It's Pronounced Bruce*

        What’s funny is that you might get in trouble for looking at your phone while standing around in a warehouse job, but if you’re walking around looking at your phone in an office no one would notice or care.

        1. Windchime*

          People do notice and care in my office. We all keep our phones out and look at them occasionally, but there is one guy who is on his constantly. He keeps it down near his lap and I guess he thinks he’s hiding what he’s doing, but believe me – the boss does notice.

          1. It's Pronounced Bruce*

            If you’re on it all the time, maybe. But the having it out and occasionally glancing at it thing would also be unacceptable in any blue collar gig I’ve ever had.

    6. Susan the BA*

      Pay attention to what other people do and try to fit in, at least when he first starts. This can apply to things like what to wear, how often people take short breaks or socialize, how they organize supplies. Obviously this won’t work for everything – if his colleagues are all stealing from the company he shouldn’t copy that! – but a lot of “is this okay” questions can be answered by paying attention to the norms.

    8. Natalie*

      Especially given his field: take workplace safety seriously. People still get seriously injured at work even these days. And follow correct reporting procedures if injured. A good company wants to do everything by the book, and if he’s at a bad company better to know now than later.

    9. Clueless Parent*

      Thank you very much. Exactly the stuff I need – injuries, policy, phone use, and manners. I appreciate it!

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t wait to be asked.
      Ex. There are two large boxes to move. The person he is working with grabs one, the unspoken here is that he should grab the other one and follow the coworker.
      Ex. Doors are always an issue in warehouses. It’s expected that he will pitch right in automatically holding doors for people with loads or closing exterior doors to keep the temp in the warehouse livable.

      Since he is young, they will probably expect him to help with the heavier and more difficult items. He should ask if they want help when these situations come up.
      The first day is the hardest because everything is totally new. The second day will be a little easier.
      Get some muscle rub gel/lotion and keep it in the house. Legs can ache from concrete floors and arms can ache from lifting.

  56. Mielle*

    Hi everyone,
    A close family member of my boss just passed away and I’m wondering if it would be appropriate for me to get a sympathy card? If one circulates around the office, should I still get my own? Not sure what to do in this situation.

    Also, what do I say when she gets back in the office? I’m kind of an awkward person in general, and haven’t had many experiences with death, so not sure what to say.

    1. JeanB in NC*

      You don’t need to get a separate sympathy card, and the only thing you can really say is “I’m sorry for your loss”, and listen if she wants to talk.

    2. WellRed*

      If you expressed condolences in a card or whatever, I think when she comes back just greet her warmly and be kind and patient if she is a bit checked out.

    3. C*

      If they are like me: After the “I’m sorry for your loss,” be as normal as possible. Don’t bring it up again (unless they do). Don’t be extra-nice. (Of course, be understanding if they are checked out or missed some details or whatever. But do it quietly. Don’t draw attention to the fact that you are being understanding.) For me, when people start being extra-nice to me (that tone, that facial expression, etc.), I am reminded of WHY they’re being nice, and it makes me sad all over again. When I’m getting back to work, I just desperately want this space to be normal again.

    4. Jane of all Trades*

      I think a sympathy card would be a very thoughtful gesture, assuming that the loss is public knoewledge.
      If so, sign the card, put it on their desk or wherever the appropriate place for something like that is in your business, and then I’d probably not mention it unless they bring it up.

    5. Thlayli*

      Ask your colleagues if there is already a plan for a sympathy card and offer to pick one up for everyone to sign

  57. strawberries and raspberries*

    A couple weeks ago I asked about what to do when it’s clear your entire clique-y office doesn’t like you and treats you like a secret joke. Yesterday I approached my director about it when a public conversation with the ringleader coworker took a turn that so clearly demonstrated what I meant (tl;dr, I mentioned that my team was putting an event together, as requested by the directors, and my coworker basically said, “No one wants to do that. Why would you just make a decision like that without asking anyone else? We work together here. This is what we should do instead.” I responded defensively because the comment was designed to put me on the defensive. Why else would you announce in front of everyone that your colleague isn’t a team player?) My director was upset to hear that I’m not feeling comfortable, but ultimately it was not a successful conversation. Not only did he not see the initial conversation the way I did (he was happy my coworker and I were butting heads because it meant we “both had so many great ideas”), but he actually used the phrase “We’re a family” when expressing his disappointment. As soon as I heard that I decided that I am officially finished. I’m so goddamn uncomfortable.

    The worst part is also that this site is pretty new, and I’ve been at the larger organization longer than anyone here, and yet somehow I’m the office pariah.

    1. Cakesniffer*

      While my situation isn’t anywhere near as bad as yours, I’m going through a little of that right now so I can sympathize. While my co-workers and boss aren’t treating me badly, it’s clear that I’m the odd man out around here. They chit chat about things that I don’t have in common with them and, frankly, I’d rather just do my work when I’m here rather than socialize. Our boss texts them outside of work with funny stories or ribbing them when the team they support is losing. I guess I’m so private that he wouldn’t know what to text me about even if he were so inclined. I keep telling myself that it doesn’t matter as long as it’s not affecting my job, but it sounds like your situation passed that point. I don’t blame you for being done even though it’s not a situation you can adequately explain to your boss. I hope if you do start a job search you find something perfectly suited for you!

      1. Lumen*

        I feel this. Nine times out of ten, I’m perfectly content to do my work and not worry about socializing, but it gets weirdly tough to see a coworker who started >1yr ago being invited to happy hours in multiple departments, hearing about text chains between people on my own team, being given funny looks when I try to join conversations in the break room, etc.

        However, and this is for strawberries and raspberries in particular, the “we’re a family” is such a red alert to me, especially in that context. In a healthy family of actual relatives, one person feeling constantly excluded and devalued is a problem that needs to be addressed. In a dysfunctional family of actual relatives, one person being told to suck that feeling up and smile through the pain is emotional abuse. And in a workplace environment, YOU ARE NOT A FAMILY and trying to manipulate someone with that phrase is also gross and borderline abusive.

        I am sorry you’re dealing with this and your boss isn’t helping you. Honestly the response you got sounds like you’re getting gaslit and that the situation is only going to get more toxic.

    2. It's Pronounced Bruce*

      Well, the bad news is that your director is an idiot, because his response is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. It’s like a crappy leadership seminar came to life.

      I’m sorry. I’ve been the odd one out with some real crappy people before, and it’s a terrible drain on your quality of life.

    3. It's Pronounced Bruce*

      Actually, I do have one piece of advice: When I was in this situation and the other folks would always do things designed to make me defensive or feel small, I would either play dumb (when it’s just an insult, pretend you don’t even notice or get it) or highlight that they’re being weird by making it awkward (when they correct you).

      So for your given example, this was actually requested by directors. When this other person starts going on about how clearly those directors wouldn’t have wanted that, you just look at her either blankly or like you don’t get why she’s going on a tangent. Just stay quiet and let her spin out on whatever she’s going on about, then let there be an awkward silence when she’s done. For one, this prevents her from getting the reaction she wants out of you. Second, it keeps her from having control of the interaction by making it clear (to her any anyone observing) that she’s off on some other junk and you’re not about to get into it. End the conversation by briefly correcting her in a way that does not engage. “Well… [directors] actually did request this, but thanks for the input.” Change the subject or excuse yourself to go do something else.

      When you work with folks that act like they’re in middle school, this response actually keeps you from being dragged into it. You’re not going to argue with them or acknowledge when they’re being wacky. You’re going to ignore or be confused by whatever weird stuff they do, and you’re not gonna give any response that draws you into a negative interaction.

  58. Overeducated*

    RED ALERT! LEADERSHIP VACUUM! Found out yesterday that my boss and coworker are both retiring in the next 3-8 weeks, but can’t tell the rest of the staff yet. They have both been here for over a decade, and are both in leadership positions, with the rest of us in tenures from 2-3 months (me) to 1.5 years (most “senior” of the rest of us). I am in the next highest position on the org chart, so my boss told me this is a time of “a lot of opportunity” for me…but I’m pretty freaked out by the idea of losing ALL our leadership and institutional knowledge at a time when just keeping the team minimally staffed is a challenge, and most of us haven’t even been through the yearly cycles that regulate our overall work. I work for a very small program within a very large bureaucratic organization, so I see this as a time of opportunity, but also great danger to mess up both my career and our program.

    Anyone been in a situation like this? How do I make the most of the weeks before they retire? How do I keep the period after from being an abject failure, and instead take advantage of the opportunity successfully? (For instance, I’d love to take over coworker’s position, and may well do so for practical purposes, but I’m not eligible for that official promotion until I’ve been here a year, and there will probably be a reevaluation of our staffing structure after they leave.) How do I figure out the appropriate level of communication with the higher-up higher-ups who will be making decisions and recommendations about filling their roles temporarily and permanently?

    1. Kit*

      Honestly, you just struggle through. Make sure you’re polite and courteous and don’t worry about over or under-communication; get the info you need, ask for the help you need, and let yourself rely on the upper structure to help fill those gaps. It is their job to do that. When you come out the other side with a new structure people will remember how you handled it more than what got done or not done, so take care of yourself and don’t take on too much!

      1. Overeducated*

        Thanks. I think getting to know the upper structure and how to go to them for help is going to be the challenge here – as director, my boss is the generally the only connection between anyone above him and anyone in our program. I think I will try for an introduction to his boss before he leaves and find out what kind of resource that person can be.

    2. Anono-me*

      Ask your boss and your coworker (unless you are not supposed to know about coworker’s plans) to please share any manuals, SOPs, good examples of reports and useful contact information that they may have or come across as they clean out their desks.

      They will probably be very good about sharing SOPs and contacts, but sometimes people don’t think about the value of examples. Say if you are asked to prepare the end of year teapot sales report and have never done so, having last year’s report will be a big help. But if every anual report is compared to the one Kris did back in 02, then it would also be a big help to have the 02 report.

      1. Overeducated*

        Thanks. Coworker is already forwarding me tons of stuff and I’m just trying to make sure it’s organized in my email so I can find it again, since it will all be useful someday but I don’t know when.

        So far I’ve mostly been learning based on examples, or tasks, and I think it’s the big picture of how it all fits together in the yearly process that I’m missing. (I’d figured that was going to be a natural learning process through the first year, but apparently we won’t have that luxury. Ignorance is dangerous because if you only learn part by part, the whole thing can become derailed if you miss a part or deadline you weren’t aware of.) But that gives me a good idea – whenever I ask about big-picture bureaucratic processes in particular, I’m told “they’re always changing,” so what I need to do is get them to sit down with me and talk to me about how entire processes went, start to finish, last year. I’ll make flow charts or something.

        1. PX*

          This. Though it might not be official yet, when my coworker retired and I was taking over his tasks without having been through the entire yearly cycle of our regulations, I did as much to prep, document and understand the nuance as possible. And then I did a walk through with them of how I had understood the process, and they added a few minor details that I had missed.

          Ask about if there are customer specific things/unusual bits of process/that one outlier and write it all down for reference. If relevant, ask to be included in a formal handover to customers so that the transition isnt massively abrupt. It can also help in building up goodwill if anything goes wrong (“So sorry I didnt dye your llama the right colour, Jolene didnt mention that during out handover! I’ll make sure to add it to my notes for next year!” tends to go down better)

      2. ..Kat..*

        Ask how they figure out what to do when they don’t know. Internal (to the company) resources are good, but hopefully they can give you external resources as well. This is probably what anono-me means. I just wanted to be explicit.

  59. Like The City*

    Thanks to Alison’s advice regarding cover letters, I’m currently waiting on an answer about a job that I really hope to get. I applied for a position that’s in a slightly different field and used my cover letter as an opportunity to show how I could cross over from one to the other. I received a call asking if I could interview the same day I applied and actually interviewed the next day. The hiring manager flat out told me that they decided to pull me in for an interview (even though they had already narrowed it down to 2 candidates) based on my cover letter.

    I’m still waiting to see whether an offer will materialize or not and now I’m nervous thanks to one of my references. I asked a former coworker if I could use them as a reference (we had a great coworker relationship and are still friends) and they said yes. I said nothing else/asked nothing about any calls because that’s just not what you do. However, they took it upon themselves to text me and tell me that the company had called them to check my reference and that they had told them that I “researched their company and faculty and approved of the company before (I) applied.” What the actual heck is that supposed to mean? I said nothing of the kind to them, just asked if they’d be willing to be a reference. Let’s hope they didn’t torpedo my chances. Either way, I’m thankful for all the great advice here!

  60. MissGirl*

    I have a contact, who has offered to forward my resume on should I apply at his company. This company is incredibly difficult to get an interview to. A few months ago I reached out and he agreed to, but told me know they already had someone internal lined up. Is it too soon to reach out again for another position?

    How often is too often? I have other contacts there but he is the best positioned.

    1. AliceW*

      If it is for a different position, I’d reach out again. I doubt he’d be offended.

  61. Kit*

    Any ideas for questions to screen out applicants who aren’t down with a physically strenuous job?

    I like my job, and find it rewarding, but it is hard work. Think construction, where anyone able-bodied could do it but you’ll be wiped at first until you pack on the right muscle. I’m a medium-sized woman and am excellent at what I do, so I don’t want to necessarily hire only applicants who are already in the shape of their lives, but I do want to hire people who will tough it out for a bit. About a quarter of my hires wash out.

    Right now I ask applicants if they can lift 70 lbs, and 25 lbs over their head, if they are comfortable standing all day, and if they are okay with doing a lot of physical work. I want to balance the realities of the job with not scaring off good applicants!

    Any ideas?

    1. Rosemary7391*

      Can you relate those weights to everyday objects to make sure the candidates are really clear about the requirements?

      If they wipe out really soon, perhaps it might be worth doing a physical test/exercise with them.

      1. SoCalHR*

        This is a really good idea Rosemary – some people have no concept about how heavy 10 lbs is, or 50lbs. Some possible objects: a gallon of water, a cinder block, a box of reams of paper, a 32″ flat screen TV, a car battery, full size luggage packed for international travel (I am *always* at the 50 lb weight limit max).

    2. Manders*

      1 out of 4 people washing out doesn’t sound ridiculously high for a manual labor job, so it sounds like you’re already doing a decent job of screening. I think all you can do is be honest about what the job entails (are they lifting 70 pounds once per day, or are they constantly carrying 70-pound items around?) and maybe see if you can find people who’ve already done similar work.

    3. Pollygrammer*

      I think if you’re scary, you’ll mostly scare off the bad applicants. Can you share that the first few weeks are tough and that there are people who do find it too physically demanding?

    4. AnitaJ*

      I’m sure you do this, but my advice would be to make sure these requirements are clearly stated in the job description and any job postings you do. It helps if candidates prefer to self-select out when they see it up front. Good luck!

    5. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      During the interview, have them pick things up (ask first if they are comfortable doing this), we used to do it our warehouse, we had boxes of ‘teapots’ that needed to be moved, lifted, and carried. So during the interview the supervisor would take them on a tour and show them the boxes, she would explain the physical requirements and offer the applicant a chance to pick one up.

      Then she would explain how people would find muscles they’d forgotten about the first couple of weeks and would be sore, but after awhile the soreness goes away.

      We had a fair number of people of self selected out of the candidacy at that point due to the physical requirements. We had a pretty low number who quit after they started, I’d estimate 1 of 10 at that point.

    6. Emily*

      My company requires applicants to get a physical exam from a health provider. They have to pass that (including things like a blood pressure check, and lifting a certain amount of weight), plus a drug test, in order to get the job.

      These are jobs that require heavy lifting.

    7. ..Kat..*

      Let them know that a physical fitness test is part of the interview. You can’t ask them to do fifty pushups, but you can ask them to lift and move as they would for job tasks.

  62. Rosemary7391*

    I’m wondering what I can do with my hair in a more formal workplace (dress code is not really an issue in my current place). I have thigh length hair and I don’t like using elastic except at the end. Usually I just braid it straight down my back. But I’m considering branching out into hair sticks/forks for buns. I assume the plain styles are okay? I’m not that keen on the ones with whimsy carving anyway. But what about coloured ones like this?
    https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/599249234/purple-blue-wooden-helix-hair-fork?ref=shop_home_active_11
    Any other suggestions for workplace appropriate very long hair styles?

    Thanks!

    1. Manders*

      That’s a cute hair fork! I think it’s work-appropriate unless you’re in a really conservative suit and tie industry.

      Just in general, I think the chances of anyone in your office finding your hair choices unprofessional are low. Just don’t show up with your hair unwashed and uncombed, and don’t go over the top with goofy accessories like fascinators at work, and you should be good.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        Mmm, I actually think keeping it consistently tied back is a good idea. I wouldn’t leave thigh-length hair loose in a formal workplace.

        1. Rosemary7391*

          I don’t keep it loose ever. It would be wrapped around everything by lunchtime. Not good!

      2. Rosemary7391*

        Yeah, I’m a techy type so I doubt it’ll be really conservative! I love the colour of that one so very tempted :)

        I definitely do keep it neat largely because once it gets messy it’s a nightmare to fix. I like making hair flowers out of spare fabric but I do keep them for church/fancy evening events rather than work.

        Thanks :)

    2. Red Reader*

      A-ok. I have waist length hair and I keep it up in a bun with wooden forks or pins all the time. Just be mindful of the length so you don’t catch them on a desk and wrench your neck when you’re climbing out from under a desk. (Totally not speaking from experience or anything :-P ) And you can get lots of gorgeous designs on Etsy too, I have some that are wooden and some that are carved antler, and one someone brought me from Sri Lanka that was carved from yak bone.

      1. Rosemary7391*

        Ooh, yes, the climbing under a desk… currently if I have to work on the floor I’m forever flicking my braid out of the way! Doesn’t happen at work often thankfully.

        Those sound really interesting! I like the look of the wooden ones but I’ll keep an eye out for more unusual materials, especially once I’ve an income to justify frivolous spending… In the meantime I think I’ll stick with a nice plain one for interviews.

    3. Leena Wants Cake*

      I have a lot of hair too, and I’ve had fun incorporating some new-but-still-professional styles into my routine, by using these things: https://www.amazon.com/Pintwist-Hair-Pin-4-Pack/dp/B01CENZVRC/ref=pd_sim_194_1/147-0328558-4365031?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01CENZVRC&pd_rd_r=HVCYX3CWC6RDJNZ9FF1Z&pd_rd_w=sJXsZ&pd_rd_wg=Brsvw&psc=1&refRID=HVCYX3CWC6RDJNZ9FF1Z

      Not all the styles in their manuals or videos are office appropriate, but most are.

      The hair fork in the link is totally cute and appropriate too!

    4. Elf*

      I have hair like that, and my go-to professional style is a bun using hairpins (not bobby bins! the u-shaped ones!) I twist my hair up into a bun, and I use about three around the edges pointing in, and one from the top of the bun toward my head. People with less hair can use fewer, but when it gets that long you need the four. It takes about a minute and is easily professional enough for an interview.

    5. KX*

      I have medium long hair that is very straight and very slippery. I use a hair stick. It took a while for me to find the right one: a heavier one is the only one that worked. It’s weighted at one end. The lighter weight ones can’t fight the heft of my hair. Using a pencil like a sexy librarian is not possible for me.

      I also like the claw clips, the ones about the width of your fist with a very round barrel. I would twist my hair up into a bun and use one or two to hold it in place.

  63. Pancakes*

    I’m wondering about bringing up a raise/possible promotion with my boss very far in advance of when it would take effect (about 6 months). The organization I work for is going to be planning the budget for my department this summer, and I’d like to mention to my boss that I’m hoping for a raise/thinking about a promotion now, I’m the hopes that she will factor it into the budget for January (when performance reviews/raises typically happen).

    I have been in this job for about 5 months (will be 6 when I’m planning to have this conversation). After I accepted the position, but before I started working here, my boss called to ask if I would be comfortable working on a big project that was typically outsourced to a contractor. I said yes, and the project turned out really well and my org was very happy with moving it in-house. I split the work with a co-worker, but did end up taking on more than half of the work and took on the planning/facilitation of the project. Not only did we not need to hire the contractor, but the project went much smoother with me working on it and saved staff time that would usually go to coordinating with the contractor. This project was not previously in the scope of work for my position (hence my boss calling before I started and asking to take it on). The plan is for me to take on another similar, bigger project in the fall, and for me to be even more involved in managing it. My performance reviews have been entirely positive, and the only suggestions I’ve received have been essentially to try new things and take more risks now that I’m comfortable with the work.

    So, I’m hoping to ask for a raise at my annual review in Janury, but I’d like to mention this to my boss in June in the hopes that she’ll factor this into her budgeting (I realize that they’ll factor raises in generally, but I’m hoping for one that is a little bit more than a standard cost of living bump given my success in general and with this big project). As for the promotion, most people in my position either leave or are promoted at the 1 year mark (based on available positions), so I’m planning to ask how she sees my career path here going and what I can do to see if a promotion will be an option in the future.

    Does anyone have any tips about this kind of conversation? My rapport with my manager is generally good and she has encouraged her reports to always advocate for themselves, so I don’t think it would go terribly, even if she were to say a significant raise isn’t likely.

    1. AliceW*

      Just be straightforward about what you want. Say you have taken on additional responsibilities and are excited to take on more and would like to be considered for a promotion next year. That way it lets your boss know you want a promotion and are willing to take on more work to get it. It at least gets the conversation started.

    2. BRR*

      I’m very hesitant to recommend asking for a raise after only being in a position for 6 months with rare exception. Unless the project is incredibly outside the scope of your position, and not just being a high performer in your role, I wouldn’t ask for one.

  64. 2015Royals*

    I recently interviewed for and accepted a new internal position at the company I work. After moving to my new position it has been brought to my attention that the director of my previous area wasn’t supportive of my move. I do not have particulars so I am not sure if she didn’t want me to go, or expressed concerns regarding myself or my work. I like to seek out feedback from those I interact with, I use this information on how to improve going forward. I am curious if I should try to have a conversation with my former director to see what her concerns were if she did indeed have some. Or do I “let sleeping dogs lie” as they say?

    1. WellRed*

      Nope, nope, nope! You’ve already moved into new role and it’s probably just that she didn’t want to have to find a replacement for you.

  65. Damn it, Hardison!*

    I’m in an open-plan office space with a colleague who is on hours long calls every day. She is leading the calls and is probably speaking 45 of the 60 minute call. She has about 6-7 hours a day, usually back to back or sometimes the same call for 2-3 hours. She also really loud – when she speaking after being quiet for a few minutes I jump in my seat, even though I’m wearing headphones 90% of the time. I’ve asked her to be quiet which works for a maybe an entire call before she raises her volume again.

    We have small rooms available for calls. Would I be out of line to suggest to her that she take her calls there rather than at her desk? What would be a reasonable request – if she is going to be on for more than 2 hours?

    1. Snubble*

      I think it partly depends on what else she’s doing on these calls – if she needs access to her files or emails while she’s on them, it may not actually be possible for her to take them elsewhere – but also, if it’s that high a proportion of her time, you probably have to accept that your role includes being next to a phone-heavy coworker. I sympathise, because I would hate it too, but you can’t really expect her to avoid her own workspace for 75% of her work.

      Are there any spare desks in your office you could move to?

      1. Damn it, Hardison!*

        She can take her laptop with her to have access to her email, files, etc. She’s an external processor, which means she wants to talk through everything with someone, so these aren’t necessarily multi person meetings, often they are one on one calls. Unfortunately no spare desks that I can use, plus I often need multiple monitors for my work so the small rooms are not useful for me. I think I’m going to have to shell out for pricey noise canceling headphones. I’m not the only one who is disrupted by her calls/volume; my coworkers complain about it too. It’s the combination of the frequency and loudness that is driving my crazy. Friday’s are so awesome because I can work from home in peace and quiet.

        1. WellRed*

          Maybe your company would pay for the headphones? (do your research on what you would want and what they cost) and then ask and explain how they will help you do your job better.

        2. BRR*

          This sounds exactly like my position. Can you approach your manager as a group that you all find it difficult to concentrate with her being on calls everyday? I’m suggesting your manager instead of her because a) you’ve tried asking her and b) this seems like a core function of her job that’s affecting several people.

        3. Thlayli*

          She has a laptop and there are rooms available for her to use on calls. She’s being really really rude and you are totally ok with asking her to use the phone booths

    2. Friday*

      Unfortunately you probably can’t ask her to move, as it sounds like these calls are her whole job so she’ll need her assigned workstation for them. Is there anything you can do the help buffer the noise? Add in a divider? A few big plants?

  66. Cakesniffer*

    Any tips for dealing with the world’s coldest office? This week has been brutal with temps outside not getting above 68 but the AC is cranked full blast in the office. I’m already wearing a heavy sweatshirt, 1-2 long-sleeved shirts, and a t-shirt or tank layered underneath. Even then I still feel chilly, plus my legs are cold despite my wearing jeans and boots. I’m seriously considering bringing a space heater to work for the summer but that seems extreme. I do get cold ridiculously easily and my private office has stronger AC than the main office, so even though the other women in the office are a little cold, I’m the only one affected to this extreme.

    1. StudentA*

      I’m sensitive to the cold, but can’t stand being hot at work. Much rather be chilly.

      Do you drink tea or anything else hot? If you don’t like coffee or tea, drink warm water. Holding the mug warms your hands, and the hot liquid starts warming the rest of you up pretty quickly. Have you tried thermal socks? They do wonders.

      1. Cakesniffer*

        I usually drink tea at home during the winter to stay warm but hadn’t thought to try that here during the summer to stay warm. Great suggestion!

        I do have some great Smartwool socks that help keep my feet toasty. I stopped wearing them once winter ended but I might need to start up again due to the winter-like conditions in here.

      1. Cakesniffer*

        That’s a great suggestion! I hadn’t thought of that. Might be something I’ll bring up to my boss since I don’t need the same level of AC the rest of the office seems to.

    3. katkat*

      I recently got a heated computer mouse – that helped keep my hand/fingers warm enough to still bend! In my search, I found that they also have heated keypads and other accessories that might help the hand situation.
      Is there anyone you can ask about a way to better regulate the temperature? If your office is a different temp than the rest of the space, you might not have success asking others to back you up on this, unfortunately, but it’s worth asking if possible.
      And as a perpetually cold person, I support you bringing in the space heater if you need it!! It might look “extreme” but it’s also extreme to have to wear 4 layers during the summer because your office is an ice box. Do whatever is in your power (and safe) to be comfortable while at work!

      1. Cakesniffer*

        In the past we were able to turn the AC down whenever we were uncomfortable but we recently added a server room to our office that gets ridiculously hot due to all of the electronics running 24/7, so I know the guys who work back there need all the cool air they can get. I don’t want to take that away from them just because I get cold too easily. I’d never even heard of heated computer mice but that sounds like something I’d love! I’ll admit my fingers were getting a little numb the other day so that would help so much. Time for me to do a little shopping!

    4. SoCalHR*

      they have throw blankets that are warming (think electric blanket for your bed, but lap sized). These seem to be more safe than a space heater and can be worn a few different ways, that would help for the legs, or you could drape it like a shawl for your upper body. Or maybe try sitting on it. I think they’re $30-40 on amazon.

      1. Ktelzbeth*

        Second this. Mine got me through the winter. You could also look into getting a gooseneck desk lamp, putting in an incandescent bulb because you specifically want the waste heat, and bringing it down near your fingers on the keyboard. I also thought about buying a reptile warming lamp for myself last winter, but that looks a little more purpose specific and less like office decor. I’m not allowed to have a space heater.

    5. SoCalHR*

      Not sure if my other comment got deleted (or went to moderation somehow), but they have mini-electric blankets that are throw blanket size. That would work for your legs, or maybe you could even sit on it or wrap around your shoulders as needed.

    6. Det. Charles Boyle*

      Bring a space heater to work. Yes, it’s ridiculous to have to do that in the summer, but sometimes it’s necessary. It’s about 65 degrees in my office and I have long sleeves and a sweater on, plus my space heater. And I drink hot coffee throughout the day. It’s such a waste of electricity, but if I didn’t, I wouldn’t be able to work.

    7. cat socks*

      I sit on a heating pad and use it year round. If I’m really cold, I’ll wrap a blanket around my legs.

      Are you able to take short breaks to walk outside? Sometimes in the summer, I’ll go sit in my car for a few minutes. I love the blast of warm air after I’ve been so cold inside.

      1. Friday*

        I do this too – feels amazing to “thaw” out for a few minutes in the summer heat a few times a day.

    8. MechanicalPencil*

      I use a heating pad and put it either behind my back or in my lap. I also put it inside a pillow case so I can take it home and wash periodically.

    9. Lindsay J*

      Fleece lined leggings layered underneath your pants.

      Warm shoes.

      USB warmed gloves if you can get away with them.

    10. Becky*

      I literally keep a blanked in one of my desk drawers for when my legs get cold. I always have a hoodie/coat on hand even in summer as well.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Make sure your shoes are not tight fitting. I have found that looser fitting shoes actually keep my feet warmer.

      I do use a space heater when the AC is on. Because of the layout of the room, my boss who runs warm to begin with, is sitting in a warmer spot than I am. I do actually want the AC running to suit her, but I would be much happier if I am not cold myself. So there are days when the heater is blowing on my legs and feet while the AC is running at high speed.

    12. only acting normal*

      Are you sitting in the flow of air from the vent?
      I’m almost impervious to ambient temperature but ridiculously sensitive to airflow. I second the suggestions for asking for partial vent blocking or to turn the fan rate down in the local vent.

  67. Sadie Doyle*

    I posted last week that I had interviewed for an internal job and had a cryptic meeting on Monday with the hiring manager.

    I did get an offer. But it gets a little thorny after that.

    The salary that they offered me was below what I was hoping for, so I went back to the hiring manager to make my case for a slightly higher salary. He hemmed and hawed about how he’d have to go back to HR and the management team and how it could take a week but said he would do so. I didn’t express myself as well as I could have (I’ve never done this kind of negotiation before, so I was terrified and it showed), so I wrote him a quick note reinforcing my accomplishments at the company and why it would be worth it to give me that bump. So now it’s a waiting game. In the meantime, they have moved me to an office and are announcing it next week with some other personnel changes. Even if they can’t give me what I asked for, I am taking the job, but it feels weird that these things are happening without an offer letter signed.

  68. Anonymous#9001*

    I’m applying for a short-term consultancy role at the United Nations Development Programme. I don’t have a background in International Relations. I do have a background in the job type and some of the core competencies. Can anyone here give any insight on the application process and what to expect? Do they most likely have someone in mind already and are just going through the motions of advertising the job to give the appearance of honesty and fairness? I saw a review on Glassdoor basically claiming they do this. I really, really want this job and know I’d do well.

    Where are my UNDP / UN friends?

    1. UN Anon*

      For normal jobs, yes, they sometimes/often have someone in mind already. Often someone who’s been doing all the work as a short term consultant (perhaps even on a day by day contract) for years. For a short term consultancy you might be in better luck.
      The application process may take a while. Mine was 10 months the first time, 8 the second time and this was quick. I know someone for whom it took 4 years.
      Bear in mind there will be thousands of people applying and some will have every single skill and qualification the advert names, fluency in all 6 languages and an underrepresented nationality. It is insanely competitive. But why not try?

  69. Sleepy baby*

    Recently converted from temp to permanent employee at my job! I love it so far — coworkers are supportive, benefits and pay are great for my experience level and field
    I’m a little nervous because we are about to bring on my manager. Right now I’ve been reporting to basically someone who is meant to be my grand boss. I sat in on the interviews and I really like the person we’re likely going with. But i feel a bit apprehensive of basically having a team of two very new people. Plus I like the person who I’m reporting to now. Any advice to make this transition as smooth as possible?

  70. Anonish*

    My company is marching in our city’s Pride parade for the second year, which I was really excited about until I mentioned it to a friend of mine who was (reasonably) cynical about the corporatization of Pride and suggested that companies might participate in order to point to themselves as inclusive without actually doing the hard work of substantive policy change. I thought she was overly negative until I checked our health insurance policy the next day and found that transgender healthcare is specifically excluded from coverage. :( So I shot off a quick email to the benefits team saying essentially, “Hey, clearly our company espouses progressive values because we’re participating in Pride, would we maybe consider updating this benefit to both attract talent and also because it’s the right thing to do?”

    Has anyone ever had any success with approaching HR with stuff like this? I kept the tone very positive and used “we” a lot as I’ve learned from AAM!

    1. Murphy*

      I don’t have any advice, but way to go for doing that! I hope you get a good response.

    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      No personal experience with that. But, thank you for doing it!

      I need to check in on our insurance this year and see what the conditions of coverage are for that.

    3. beanie beans*

      No experience either, but just another voice to say thank you for sending that message!

    4. Lumen*

      Wow – Anonish, thank you! Speaking of Pride and how sometimes the actual work of equality and inclusion gets lost in the party of it all, you actually did put yourself out there to advocate for LGBTQA+ people.

      I hope you get a good response. I’ll be happily shocked if they actually begin offering healthcare that covers the specific needs of trans employees, but even raising the issue is a step towards this sort of thing being EXPECTED, rather than exceptional.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Huh.. my new company is marching in our city’s Pride parade too. I was pretty excited too, but now I’m wondering if our insurance covers transgender healthcare.

      I know that same-sex partners are eligible for benefits.

      1. Anonish*

        Same-sex partners are definitely eligible for benefits at our company, too, and we have excellent maternity and infertility coverage, which is why the lack of coverage for transgender care was surprising. I would be willing to bet that the reason is closer to “no one’s ever asked for it” than “we don’t like trans people and don’t want them to work here” but of course being proactive about these things is the way we truly progress.

    6. NW Mossy*

      Your approach is pretty much exactly what my company’s LGBTQ employee group did to advocate for this coverage, and they were successful! They set transgender health coverage as a goal and did the legwork to show that making the change would put the company in line with industry best practices and lead to better scores on third-party inclusion ratings.

      At the same time, they were also able to get all existing single-occupancy restrooms labeled as all gender restrooms. A small change, but a thoughtful and inclusive one.

  71. JustaTech*

    Is there something wrong with staying at the same company, even if I’m not using my new-ish advanced degree?

    Long version: I work for a company that’s had some major ups and downs (bankruptcy, being owned by Canadian Evil Corp, getting sold by CEC to a Chinese company) and when everything was terrible I did a “working adults” program to get an MPH. The thing is, I haven’t been able to switch careers with my new degree, but at the same time work is no longer terrible. I actually have things to do, I’ve gotten a promotion and a raise and more responsibility and I’ve even gotten to travel. And even before the raise my pay was pretty high for the area and I have outstanding work-life balance. So it’s been hard to convince myself that I want a job at 2/3s pay for probably a third again as many hours, in a field where my overall earning potential will always be lower (yay government and non-profits).

    As long as things are good here, am I being lazy and settling? Or am I being sensible?

    1. Pollygrammer*

      If you’re content where you are, I wouldn’t look for a job you don’t necessarily want just because you think you should, esp. for a degree you got under different circumstances. But you could seek out public health volunteer work if you wanted to feel like you were using your masters.

    2. epi*

      Lots of people use their degree in not-obvious ways. What did you want the MPH for and what did you learn in it? Depending on your concentration you might actually know about some pretty marketable things like evaluation, qualitative research methods, or applied stats. You don’t necessarily have to go into a public health department to use your skills, feel like you are working in the larger public health space, or both, if you want.

      It’s totally fine to end up not using the degree too, of course. But it might not hurt to look around at what you could use it for based on the skills you gained, even if not in public health, so you know your options in case things don’t stay great at your company.

    3. miyeritari*

      If you were thinking about job searching because your job was crappy, but now your job improved, you don’t have to keep job searching out of principle.

    4. The Lady Amalthea*

      As an MPH in a nonprofit, I’d advise you to stay where you are as long as you’re happy. I love my work, but unless you go the corporate route it’s a lot like what you anticipate: long hours and low pay—not to mention constantly evolving policy and frustration.

    5. ..Kat..*

      The longer you go without using your MPH in your job, the harder it will be to get a job in public health. But, if you are okay with that, enjoy your current job! Does your school have job placement assistance if you still want to look around. The long hours at nonprofits can be a big turn off for many, especially those who like better work/life balance.

  72. Anansi*

    I could use advice on how to handle a crappy situation at work. My team has very clearly delineated responsibilities, so I am responsible for all purple teapot client work, and all interactions with purple clients are supposed to be through me. My coworker, Amanda, is responsible for all pink teapot client work. About a week ago, I learned that my coworker (with my supervisor’s knowledge) went to a very important meeting with our CEO with a purple teapot client. I was never even told about the meeting and found out after the fact, when Amanda sent me an email telling me I needed to do follow up work that resulted from the meeting. I asked my boss about what happened and she kind of blew me off, saying I shouldn’t take it personally and she can’t remember what happened, things are so hectic and busy, yadda yadda.

    I feel like that’s a pretty crappy answer, but I’m not sure what to do now. Both my boss and Amanda know that this was my client, and I am at a loss to why I was never looped in. I’d like to follow up with my boss and find out how this happened/talk about ways to ensure it doesn’t happen again, but I also think I should talk to Amanda. Any advice on how to raise this calmly and assertively? I don’t want to be blown off again, but I also don’t want to needlessly cause drama.

    1. Pollygrammer*

      A new purple teapot client or one you’ve already worked with? (Both are bad, but the latter is worse.)

      1. Anansi*

        One I’ve already worked with. One of the reasons I’m having trouble talking to my boss and coworker about this is it is SO inappropriate, so it’s hard to bring up without being, WTF happened here? My best guess about what happened was a meeting with the CEO came in, my boss was frazzled and forgot it was my client, and asked Amanda to cover. But that still shouldn’t happen, and if it does Amanda should have said something to me or my boss about it.

        1. Pollygrammer*

          That’s bad, I’m sorry. Maybe when you talk to Amanda, frame it as asking her to help you figure out where the communication broke down so it doesn’t happen again?

          (Versus the completely reasonable “why the hell did you do this?”)

          1. Anansi*

            Thanks, that’s helpful to get a gut check. My plan is to be as calm as possible and frame it as a problem I’d like to prevent from happening again, rather than an accusation.

    2. WellRed*

      Oh, I think this is bad! I would hate to be excluded from a meeting that should have been mine. Do you otherwise work OK with Amanda? Is the client switching to pink teapots? Is Amanda looking to expand into purple?

      1. Anansi*

        My relationship with Amanda is ok but not great. One of the reasons why this is hard to talk to her about is I was transferred onto this team about a year ago. Prior to that there was a vacancy during which Amanda was doing ALL teapot client work. Even though she was extremely overwhelmed and it was always understood that eventually the position would be filled, I think there’s some resentment going on in how clients were divvied up when I started.

  73. WillWorkForLivingWage*

    You know how everyone here says that you should always be very careful about working for a small business, especially if it is a family owned and operated business? You were all right all along! I started working for a small family owned business two years ago, and thought that I would be fine.

    WRONG!

    I just put in my months notice…and I couldn’t be more relieved! I had almost convinced myself that this job wasn’t that bad compared to what some letter writers have endured. My situation may not be as bad as some of the horror stories we see here, but I’m still burnt out.

    And I will now proceed to rant.

    No one gets fired here! No one gets formally disciplined or put on a PIP here! No one behaves professionally! Everyone is either overly familiar or rude! The other day an employee screamed and cussed at other employees in front of customers and was given nothing more than an informal warning! Other departments refuse to cooperate with my department or else do it grudgingly.

    My manager is a micromanager who doesn’t react well to bad news or things she doesn’t want to hear. I’ve tried to bring issues up with her, but have not gained any ground so far. I’m the only one on my team who can actually talk to her without her getting too upset. I’ve tried and tried to intervene between her and my team, but she always regresses after a brief period of improvement. And upper management doesn’t care as they aren’t directly impacted.

    When I gave my notice everyone was in panic mode. The company wants me to stay, but their best offer was to move me to another department and a 50 cent raise. Also, I think my leaving may have started an inquisition surrounding my manager. They just realized that one of our top employees in our department was trying to leave. Upper management had already met with my coworker to see how she was doing after an incident involving our manager, and she let them know that she was at the point of almost leaving. I think they feel that I’m leaving because of her too. Which to be honest, I am, but the main reason I’m leaving is because of the company as a whole. I’m so done.

    1. my two cents*

      It sounds like your company’s relaxed policies have gotten too relaxed to the point of undisciplined chaos. Don’t worry about leaving. The company has created their own standards and has to live with them. It sounds like you have tried making the best of and solving a situation that can’t be solved without major changes. Be proud of the work you have done and let the company deal with their mess. In addition companies need to be prepared that employees leave, very few are lifers. Do what you can to help with the transition, but it is time for a change and time to move on.

    2. WellRed*

      So what if it did start an inquisition? The whole company may be a disaster but that doesn’t mean the individual bits of chaos don’t deserve a closer look.

  74. Erika22*

    As I’ve been casually job searching for the past year, I’ve had a few different recruiters reach out where I’ve ultimately sent them my resume to pass on to the internal hiring manager. A couple questions (since I’m now actively looking and hope to work with more recruiters in the near future):
    • There’s no need to have a cover letter when you’re working through a recruiter, correct? I haven’t been asked for one, but maybe it’s like when application portals don’t allow you to attach one, and I should whip one up and send it anyway?
    • And if I find a different position I’m interested in at the same company, do I apply for that position as I would normally, or should I see if that other position is one the recruiter is involved with also?

    Thank you in advance! Signed, a n00b.

    1. AliceW*

      I’ve never used a cover letter for a position when working with a recruiter. You only need a cover letter when you are applying direct or when reaching out to a new recruiter. I have found that sometimes it is better to work with a recruiter, such as when there might be a lot of applicants or when my resume isn’t a perfect match for a position. But if you find a new position at the same company on your own, and especially, if it is not related (or in the same dept. as the other job), if it is a good match for your experience, I’d say you can go ahead an apply on your own. I would.

  75. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    This week has been nuts. My Boss and GrandBoss have urged everyone to get their teapot requests in. I can barely get away during the late afternoon to heat up my lunch (let alone eat it). My shoulders have been up near my ears. And then…THEN….they’ll think they’re being funny about “Oh, WDP is going to get buried” or “WDP is going to be SUPER BUSY”.

    Yes. You’re right. It’s hilarious.

    Especially because when everything is rushed like this there’s errors out the wazoo. Which slows me down. And that leads to cranky emails because I’m expected to not only operate at 100% error free….I’m also expected to operate at near perfect efficiency.

    C’mon five o’clock………….

      1. Emily S.*

        BTW, my week has had its moments of crazy — but not at the level you describe. I think the nuttiest thing that happened this week was when, after 4pm on Tuesday, I had to book a flight for a colleague for the very next morning. That was a first!

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          Oh, gawd. Wish I could say that was abnormal here. We actually had one guy who had to be on a flight the *same day* because the client was pitching a fit. He was here in the morning and left at lunch. (And if I recall correctly, was back in the office the next day.)

            1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

              Management doesn’t seem to understand that we can fire clients.

              Actually, my most recent coworker who left asked her hiring manager how they handle difficult clients. When they responded they fired them because it wasn’t worth the headache and toxicity, she said that was the moment when she mentally accepted the job.

  76. Chameleon*

    I’m planning out my calendar for next year and I want to try to be a little more aware of cultural differences than I have been previously. Though it hasn’t come up with any students so far, I’m going to try to work out my class schedule so I don’t have any major tests or projects due on important holidays.

    I know I need to avoid scheduling on Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur, but are there other holidays that it would be important not to schedule things during? What about Eid Al-Fitr and Eid Al-Adha? Diwali? Good Friday? Others? I was raised pretty areligious so I don’t really know what holidays are important and which are sort of just there…

    1. CC*

      That’s very considerate of you! I can only speak to the Christian liturgical calendar, unfortunately. Hopefully someone will jump in with some other traditions…

      Besides Easter and Christmas Eve/Day, I’d say the other main liturgical holidays to pay attention to are Ash Wednesday and Good Friday (the exact days float depending on the year in accordance to when Easter is observed). I also know Epiphany on January 6th is very important in certain cultures and denominations. They don’t generally require all-day services or anything, but I have run into scheduling issues where my church’s service will begin at 5 but I’m supposed to be at work until 5:30.

      As for assigning school work, the week leading up to Easter can get really busy with special services on Thursday though Sunday and then family activities on the weekend. The Eastern Orthodox Church also observes Easter on a different schedule than Catholics/Protestants, so that’s something you’ll want to watch out for.

    2. tj bag dog*

      Definitely avoid scheduling on both Eids! It can be tough to pinpoint the exact day months/weeks in advance because it (and all other Isalmic holidays) is based on the lunar cycle. Also, some Muslims will celebrate based on when the holiday starts in other countries (ex. starting to observe Ramadan when the new moon is sighted in UAE, vs. sighted in US).

      Thank you for taking other holidays into consideration!

      1. StudentA*

        About Muslim holidays, I’d say be aware of the impact of fasting on those practicing in Ramadan. They don’t eat between sunrise to sunset, or drink, smoke, chew gm, etc. It can be exhausting. Especially the first few days. I’d be wary of scheduling anything strenuous, if you have a way around it. Being outdoors all day, for example, may prove taxing.

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      I know for us, a major (government) exam fell on Eid. The observant Muslim students will write the day before; everyone else will write on the scheduled day. Unfortunately we had no choice where to schedule it.

      Our school is so multi-cultural that if we avoid scheduling things on religious holidays, we’d have very few choices, especially at certain times of the year. We just do our best and accommodate those kids as necessary.

  77. Cafe au Lait*

    I just stepped out of a meeting with my boss. She wants to change the way one of my major responsibilities is handled. While going through what she wants changed, it became very apparent that she was frustrated with the process because she didn’t use the documentation I created and didn’t take notes while I trained her. I will be the first to admit that my documentation requires the reader to have basic familiarity with the software; similarly like a clothing stylist doesn’t explain how to tie your shoes when explaining how to meld colors together. She needed the ‘tie your shoes’ documentation.

    I can’t do anything about not taking notes. When I started her training, I told her “This process looks deceptively easy. It’s not.”

  78. The Original K.*

    When does a hiring process start to get long? What’s your benchmark for “long?”

    A friend and I are both job-searching, and he told me he’s on interview #5 and counting at a major corporation. He said he’s very close to withdrawing because it’s a headache to take time off. I told him he should just ask how much longer it’s going to take; he’s reluctant. Another friend went through a process in higher ed, which we know moves slowly, that took almost a year – but it was because of the length of time in between stages. There weren’t that many stages, but there was months-long radio silence in between them.

    I’m in the middle of two interview processes (technically three, although I’ve written off the third – I don’t think an advancement to the final round is forthcoming, and I don’t want the job). Both of them have involved two phone screens and will involve at least two in-person interviews with several people, but both are moving fairly quickly. So as of now I would call the processes involved, but not long.

    Curious about what y’all think about when a hiring process starts to get lengthy.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Friend #1 with the five interviews – that seems ridiculous unless it’s a very, very high up position. I’m in higher ed, and I agree that we do take a super long time, but you are right, there usually aren’t that many stages, just lots of time between the stages. Which I would prefer over Friend #1’s situation – I would hate to have to take off all that time from work at my level. I’d probably drop out unless I just really, really wanted the position. Your situation also sounds really involved and taking a lot of effort on your part.

      But I’d probably stick it out for Friend #2’s situation – it doesn’t take much effort just to wait.

  79. Nashira*

    Y’all, it’s blowing my mind how hard it is for my old boss and former helpdesk teammates to cope now that I’m in an engineer role at work. I’m already the resident expert on a couple of specific teapot configurations, and my former boss a) physically tried to block me when he was asking a coworker to do it and b) kept ignoring it when my coworker repeatedly identified me as the expert and directed him to me. Old boss also keeps trying to assign me work and getting mad when I don’t prioritize him, and uh… he isn’t authorized to assign me work, and he has to wait in line.

    I’ve only been in the engineer role for six weeks, but it’s increasingly surprising how old boss and his golden child feel comfortable blocking me out or directly interrupting me in meetings. I had to tell golden child to let me finish, a couple times, in a meeting attended by the COO. I am apparently a betrayer because I don’t prioritize my old job over my new job.

    They’ve got to get over it eventually, right? Sheesh. This happen to anyone else?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      My old boss and dept sort of did this to me when I switched jobs last year. Nothing as ridiculous as what you are describing, but they did try to assign work to me, or try to get me to prioritize stuff, in a passive aggressive way. I moved from a para-IT dept to official IT at my university, and while I was happy to answer questions – like where’s this document, who should I talk to about this – basic stuff, they would try to get me to do work that belong with THEM (like, wanting me to write some extensive SQL code against a database I didn’t even have access to, when they had 5 other analysts at their employ). Luckily I have a super supportive boss now, and he was a big help, but also, I just let them sit. They dropped lower on the priority list the more they hassled me. I taught them that I wasn’t going to just jump up and scurry off to do whatever they wanted. Eventually they dropped it.

  80. louise*

    My supervisors are fighting over my time and it’s stressing me out. We’ve recently implemented a timesheet forecast for our consulting work. Supervisor A is the president of the company, and the head of the department that is more where I would LIKE to work – my department is a subset of this one and does very tedious projects I don’t enjoy. Supervisor B is my direct manager, Supervisor A is his manager, and he has a tendency to micromanage. I have been pulled into Supervisor A’s projects, but Supervisor B won’t let me work on those. A told me I need to spend *all* of my time on his project, B told me I need to make time for his project. I told B that A wanted me to work on his projects, he said I need to prioritize his projects. I feel like they’re both fighting over me, and I can’t finish A’s projects if I’m spending my time on projects for B. How do I get them to agree on how I can spend my time?

    Also – this is frustrating to me because it doesn’t take anything I want into consideration.

      1. louise*

        I would love to and I’ve asked, but nobody really seems open to the possibility right now. Which is ALSO frustrating.

    2. Troutwaxer*

      How about sending them both an email which reads:

      “Dear A and B, I am sending you this email because both of you have made it clear you want a majority of my time at work. Since I don’t have the option of disobeying either of you, this ongoing issue is very stressful for me, so I thought I should bring you both together so you can work out the scheduling issues together. When the two of you have worked out my schedule, please contact me. I am very happy to be flexible as requirements shift, but it would be nice if you guys could agree on my schedule for the next couple weeks and let me know if there will be any changes after that… Thanks much, your very stressed employee.”

  81. Penny Lane*

    Any thoughts on this? I’m currently hiring for a paid position in an organization that I volunteer for. (The organization has several employees and there’s a vacancy.) The interviews are going along just fine, and I’m at the point where I’ve asked people for references.

    To me, a reference is providing a name, who the person is (e.g., former manager at XYZ company) and phone number/email so that I can contact them and ask them questions. (I’m fully aware that some employers can’t answer anything more other than verifying employment, and that’s fine.)

    However, these people are giving me “reference letters” which are pre-written, without a way for me to contact the reference. And some of them appear to be personal friends, as opposed to work associates (or even volunteer or academic associates). It feels really old school to me. Thoughts?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I agree, and I wouldn’t accept just the letter. I think you’d be ok to go back and say, “Thank you, but I prefer to speak with references directly so they can answer some specific questions.” Then ask your candidates for name, title, nature of relationship, etc.

    2. CTT*

      If this is happening with multiple people, then you might be accidentally saying something that implies you want a reference letter. I know that I got tripped up by “please provide me with references” once because I wasn’t sure if they wanted a phone number or a fully-formed reference. Saying “please provide me with a list of professional references” will probably cut down on that.

      1. AnonyAnony*

        Possibly even change the wording to ask for the “contact information of professional references” so it’s clear that you don’t want a reference letter but instead a way to contact people who can serve as a reference.

  82. AnonAnon*

    So, my partner came clean with me about having never finished college, because he was up for a new job, and the employer’s background check couldn’t confirm that he graduated. We’ve been together several years and friends for a decade, and he has been hiding this from everybody but his family for ten years. He talked with his prospective boss about it, and it’s not looking good – they were sympathetic but said holding a degree was ‘probably’ a requirement – he’ll know for sure next week.

    I am upset with him, but also doing my best to be supportive, because this was obviously a pretty burdensome secret (I don’t suspect him of hiding other things from me). I also think that the degree requirement is nonsense, because he’s coming with five years of experience tied directly to the job – before this they were very excited to be hiring him. But it’s a state job, so that may be why the requirement is so firm. He’s had 3 jobs of 2-5 years each since college, and none have ever confirmed whether he graduated.

    That said, it seems like he is going to need to finish his degree. He desperately needs to leave his current job, and we recently bought a home, so we both need to maintain a certain (relatively modest) income level in order to pay our mortgage, but it looks like certain jobs are going to be out of his reach until he has a diploma in hand. He has a ~5 year plan to start a business, but we’re both interested in putting in a bunch of DIY work on our home and boosting our financial safety net before that happens, so finding a new job would be best.

    Has anybody out there gone through something like this? We have a strong relationship, and a well-educated, caring friend group (who would *not* look down on him for this, but I think he fears they will) and I know that having hidden this from all of us is a great source of shame for him, and not at all typical behavior on his part. I tend to be very solution-oriented, and I know I need to give him some space to have his feelings and decide what he wants to do without me pushing him, but beyond that, I don’t know what to do next.

    1. EB*

      I’d definitely start with the college he attended as a first step toward figuring out the fastest/best/cheapest way to get the degree finished at this point. My understanding is that if he’s just a couple credits shy he may have to take those credits at that college (as opposed to a 2-year/community college, I’m assuming you’re speaking of a 4-year college)

      On the job end, and this is where I have some personal experience– we recently had to eliminate a candidate from consideration for this very same reason so I’d be prepared for him to lose the job. My boss LOVED him, but he came clean during the interview process that he didn’t actually have his degree finished, but told us he would get it finished within a year if hired. Ultimately HR essentially put their feet down and said that because we made it a requirement we might be opening ourselves up to a lawsuit if we went through with hiring him over other qualified candidates who did have their degrees (we’re a public university, for reference). Our candidate had slightly less professional experience but nonetheless, it was a dealbreaker.

      1. AnonAnon*

        Thank you for your thoughts! The college he attended is thousands of miles away, so that’s probably not an option. I’m pretty sure he left with 2-3 semesters remaining, so it’s unfortunately not a question of a handful of classes. I think he’ll end up looking at his options with a state school here – I’m just trying to be ready to help when he’s ready, instead of trying to push him in to making a decision about this.

        You’re right that he’s probably going to lose the job (this is also at a public uni). I think this is already serving as a wakeup call for him, which should be good in the long run, but it sucks right now.

        1. KayEss*

          His original college should have a department of academic advising or similar that can help figure out the best path based on how many credits he has left and what equivalent options are available. He may feel ashamed and avoidant about returning to his old school for help, but he really, really should talk to them–they (should) actually want him to succeed, whether that means wrapping up a few equivalent credits online or transferring to a school local to him. I have a whole slew of friends who completed their degrees after having to take a break (sometimes years-long) from school, there are usually a variety of options available.

        2. EB*

          With more than a year remaining I’d think the odds are good he might be able to get some kind of transfer credit into another institution! I’m far from an expert but I have family that works as an academic advisor so I hear a lot of stories about nontraditional students.

          Ugh, I’m almost sorry to hear it’s another public university! Part of it is optics, too, hate to say it but it makes sense from the university’s perspective. Assuming it’s possible for him to do his work outside of the higher ed environment, I’m sure Alison has advice on this somewhere but it may be to his benefit to figure out a way to designate on his resume (in a subtle way) that he did not complete the degree. Seems counter-intuitive but you’re right that he has years of professional experience at this point– that counts for A LOT. IMO, especially at 5+ out, it means much more than a degree.

        3. Awkward Interviewee*

          I work in academic advising. If he has 2-3 semesters left, transferring his credits and finishing at a local state school is probably his best bet. It will depend on how requirements vary between the schools and if he plans to change majors or stick with his old major, but he’s probably looking at at least 3-4 semesters of full time study (or longer if part time). If you’re worried about cost, a lot of state schools offer tuition benefits to their employees. So if he can find a different job at that school that doesn’t require a bachelor’s degree, that would be one way to finance the rest of his degree.

          1. Awkward Interviewee*

            Oh forgot to add – for transferring to a new school, academic advisors at the old school won’t be able to help much, because they don’t know anything about the new school’s requirements, what will transfer to the new school, etc. He’ll want to contact advisors at the new school.

            1. AnonAnon*

              Thank you! Our state uni’s website has a portal aimed at people who are returning after a long break, and it does a nice job of spelling out exactly how to get started figuring out one’s options. I have a feeling he’ll be willing to start by finding out what transfers.

      2. Kj*

        There are “degree completion programs” at some smaller private schools. I had a friend who had a smattering of credits from a smattering of schools that was able to finish through that sort of program. Plus, they tend to be designed for working professionals.

        2. Natalie*

          This is what I was going to suggest – there are a couple of colleges in my area that offer it as well. At this point it seems like just getting the box checked is the goal, so as long as it’s accredited and not a diploma mill I wouldn’t worry too terribly much about where I went.

    2. Lumen*

      Shame is like a fungus that wants a dark, secret place to grow and grow and grow until it’s completely psychedelic and warps your view of reality. I know this because I’ve been pretty high on Shame Shrooms most of my life.

      I think it’s lovely that you are being so supportive (and giving him space to decide what he wants to do); the only way he can get over the shame is to keep seeing that this isn’t the end of the world, or his job prospects, or his relationships. Encourage him to be honest with your friend groups. If he’s the type to do a lot of negative self-talk, remind him of all he’s accomplished WITHOUT a degree, including his successful relationships. Maybe look into career counseling (this is an area where your well-educated friend group can probably help; they presumably know him and what he’s good at).

      As for actual schooling, I’d suggest some Googling or directly calling colleges to see what aid is available for non-traditional students (like someone returning to finish their degree). It may not pan out but it would be my first thing to look at.

      He is not the only person in the world to have not finished college, or to have kept a secret for ten years, and thankfully this is not one of those ‘I shot a man in Reno’ secrets.

      2. School Psych*

        What about trying to get academic credit for his work experience at a university that would work with him to transfer in credits and complete his remaining credits in alternate ways? The Alternative Credit Project has a listing of universities that work with adults who are non-traditional students and in similar situations to your boyfriend. I work near a military base and we have a few former military who sub in the schools I work in and are completing bachelor’s degrees online that allow them to get credit for their military and other work experiences. I know a few people who have done credit by examination or projects to document their work experiences through National Lewis University, but there are other colleges that also do this.

  83. Mariella*

    Basically there are 3 people in my teapot department, jane, sarah and myself.

    Jane was acting manager when our teapot manager Ruth was on maternity leave. She was thrown in the deep end a little, and in turn i had to take on a substantial amount of work (think being contracted 30 hours, regularly doing 50+ weeks) because she wasnt coping.

    Ruth resigned at the end of her leave and sarah was hired as the new manager. I was promoted due to my hard work, and Jane took on my role.

    As Jane was not very good at her role as acting manager i still get a lot of enquiries for things that i used to deal with that are now her responsibility.

    I pass these items on to Jane as they lie directly within her job spec, but i am getting so much pushback from her. I dont really know how to handle this as i am a senior member of staff and in the company also, but i am 100% not the boss. I dont have authority to do anything at all when she flat out replies ‘thanks for letting me know, ill let you handle that’.. she will do the work however if she likes it or perceives it as a ‘higher level’ work. I shouldnt be doing some of these things but sometimes i do just ensure our department is on track and i think she realises that i will pick up the slack.

    I have discussed with Sarah, and she has said she has noticed it, but did not mention any action will be taken etc.

    I am also extremely socially anxious which is why i havent mentioned anything specifically to Jane yet? So any suggestions on how handle it when i do get pushback in the moment or with Sarah?

    Thank you

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I shouldnt be doing some of these things but sometimes i do just ensure our department is on track and i think she realises that i will pick up the slack.

      That’s exactly the problem. Whoever is in charge of Jane and your department needs to make Jane do her job. Since you’re not Jane’s manager, that’s not your place. But when you push these back on Jane, let someone in charge of your department know that you’re concerned that she keeps trying to get you do perform her tasks, and that you’re concerned that they will not get done (or better yet, that they’re clearly not getting done). The first time something that Jane is responsible for is missing, they’ll look to Jane. She can blame you, but if these tasks are her responsibility, that won’t fly.

      1. Mariella*

        I completely understand but our manager has a very ‘hands off’ style and only works 3 days a week.
        She trusts us to handle anything but if delays occur we are expected to tell her which i enjoy but i think some more active managering would definitely benefit but her hours are not conducive to this.
        Some of mine and Jane’s work overlaps significantly (but not the tasks i am referring to) and i am here a lot more, so i am better placed to see anything not being done/being done incorrectly.

        I have in the past notified my manager everytime an incident like this happened, but the frequency with which this was happening (8+emails a day) i was asked to stop. Is it ok to follow up with Jane when i get push back saying something like ‘im happy to help out with your work on occasion when we have a high volume workload etc, but am very busy with x and y currently so will be unable to handle any requests like this for x amount of time’. This feels a bit weird and stilted though as its such a small team!

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          How about pushing back to the requester: “Sorry, this isn’t my area. You should send your request to Jane.” Let the requester deal with it, including escalating it to your boss if Jane doesn’t do the work. You do not want to be in the middle of this.

    2. Colette*

      Can you make it clear when you pass them on that you expect her to handle it? e.g. “I’m sending this to Jane as it is her area” (copying her) or “Hi Jane, I’m sending this to you for your action” or “Looks like this was sent to me by mistake! I’ve let the client know that you will be handling it.”

      But I’d run that by Sarah first, if you think she’d object.

      1. Mariella*

        I really like the ‘im sending this to Jane as it’s her area’, as there’s nothing she can really reply back to that.

        I get a bit stuck on what to say when she says things like ‘ill let you handle you that’ when its clearly defined as her responsibility.

        I dont think Sarah would mind as she gets frustrated by this too (just doesnt seem to realise shes the only one that can do anything about it!)

        1. Epic Flavia Haplessness*

          Jill: I’ll let you handle you that.
          Stern Mariella: Jill, it’s part of your job responsibilities, so I won’t be handling it for you.
          or
          Lighthearted Mariella: No thanks! I’ve got my own tasks to finish.
          or
          Confused Mariella: Why are you pushing this task back to me? I will be doing x,y,z on this other task.
          or
          Fed-up Mariella: Sarah, I don’t have time to do Jill’s work on this task. Could you work with her to figure out a deadline for completing this task?

    3. essEss*

      I’d send her a reply back (cc:ing her boss) – “I’m afraid you misunderstood. I’m passing these along for you to take care of since they fall in your area and the customer accidentally contacted me. I don’t have the bandwidth to cover these for you. Thanks!”

  84. Emily Kimberly*

    I applied and accepted a new job I was really excited about. The description of the position was mostly project management with a bit of admin assistance for the ED. I was told in the interview the admin work was minimal, which I was really happy about as I am trying to get more project management experience. Cut to a year later and 90% of the job turned out to be admin assistant work to the ED. I spend the majority of my day scheduling his appointments, organizing the ED calendar, and dictating notes. I’m disappointed because I wanted to get away from this type of work, and feel the job description was a misrepresentation of what the position actually is. Can I bring this up to the ED, and ask to be more involved in project management tasks? Or is this basically the position and I need to accept it?

    1. miyeritari*

      I think the answer is both. “Hey Bob, when I interviewed for this posistion, I was told this was primarily a project management gig, not an admin assistance gig. While I’m happy to continue book your appointments, etc, I was wondering if I could also be involved in some project management tasks, like [something not too time-consuming project managers do]?”

      At that point, Bob will say either 1) “sorry this is an ED posistion” and you decide whether you want to keep it or not, or 2) “sure, let’s see how we can get you talking to the other PMs.” [if he says 2 but doesn’t actually do that in the following 4-6 weeks, see option 1]

      1. Ama*

        This is a great approach — you may even find that Bob isn’t aware how much time being his ED is taking up. I recently expressed concerns to my boss that taking on oversight of a couple of events last year was leading me to do a lot more event logistics work than I had anticipated (which, like you, concerned me because I have been trying to get away from that type of work). She was very surprised because she thought my direct report was going to be handling most of that stuff. Talking it through with her made us realize we’d both had some misconceptions about how this was going to work — she learned that she hadn’t fully accounted for the time I’d need to spend on certain tasks my direct report can’t do (like actually reviewing and signing venue contracts), and I learned that there were some things I thought I was supposed to do that she expected me to delegate.

        As others have said, if you don’t want to stay in this job as is, you really have nothing to lose by at least asking if adjustments could be made.

    2. AnitaJ*

      I say absolutely bring it up! If you’re interested in PM, make a case for why you could do a great job as well as mentioning that it’s what drew you to the role. If this is the job and you don’t want it, you’ll be looking for new jobs anyway, so what have you got to lose?

  85. shep*

    Who else does a side gig for diversifying revenue streams, and how do you juggle everything? I have a career 9-to-5, a small but successful YouTube channel and associated crowd-funding account, and a fledgling writing career. (I have an MFA in writing; I just can’t seem to finish anything in under a year. Or two. Or sometimes even three.)

    I admit, I’m having a LOT of trouble trying to juggle everything and still retain some sanity. Which is to say I’m not juggling right now, which gives me some much-needed downtime but a LOT of anxiety when I fall behind on projects.

    I’m hoping to get back on track this weekend! But it’s so easy to feel overwhelmed. Also, the writing is definitely what I’d like to prioritize, but that’s the one thing I’m not making money on yet. Alas.

    1. Emma*

      Depends on how flexible your 9-5 is, but I’d almost work toward dropping it if you can get your crowdfunding up enough or taking on related part-time work to replace the 9-5. I say that because flexibility is the only thing that will get you to working on the writing enough to start making money from it.

      It’s not me personally but I have a friend that has made some major sacrifices over the years but it’s well on her way to being able to support herself with her own paintings (so it CAN be done). The underlying theme that I’ve seen with her is flexibility. She intentionally holds part-time jobs, builds up great capital at them by being a great worker, and then they tend to be understanding if she needs to cut back on hours to take on a major painting commission. She’s also never lived alone… BUT now makes enough money that she rents her own studio space that doubles as almost a storefront which has helped increase her sales.

      As someone in a career 9-5 it’s terrifying, the thought of giving that up to pursue my own art, but just thought I’d throw that out there that I’m watching someone kick butt out there and flexibility just seems to the core of it.

  86. Damaging Mentor Relationship?*

    Short Story: My husband was asked by his mentor to pass along a resume of someone for a position at his school. He did. That person didn’t get the job. Then I decided to job search, applied for that job and got it. Husband has to work with mentor and other teacher this summer. How should he handle this?

    Long Story: My husband is a teacher at a very large High School. He has developed a relationship with someone in the district office who has a lot of power. She has recently been helping him get leadership opportunities within the district. Several months ago, she passed along information for a teacher who wanted a position at his school. He did and she interviewed. When he followed up with the department chair, while the chair didn’t specifically comment on the teacher’s candidacy, he did say he hadn’t gotten any applications with the qualifications they were looking for. I do have the qualifications they were looking for. In the initial interview round, I decided not to apply, but things changed at my current job and I submitted my application several weeks later. Before I applied, my husband showed my resume to the department chair who told my husband that I should still apply because they hadn’t found anyone for the position. I got the job because I had the unique skill set they were looking for.

    Now, my husband is working this summer for the district office person. And the teacher who didn’t get the job is going to be a colleague. This teacher told my husband she is very upset about not getting the job. They don’t know I got the job. I told him that he’s going to have to be up front with them about me getting the job. But we’re both at a loss on how this conversation should go.

    Thoughts??

    1. Bibliovore*

      The teacher who didn’t get the job didn’t have the qualifications that the department chair wanted for the position.
      That is the bottom line.
      You or someone else would have gotten the position. Not her.
      He passed on the information.
      He helped her and the mentor.
      There is nothing to discuss.
      He can continue to work with the other teacher. He should not discuss this matter further with either the mentor or the teacher.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      I see absolutely no reason for your husband to mention to them that you got this job. It would do more harm than good, given the headspace the district office person and the other teacher are likely in right now. Please follow Bibliovore’s advice, ’cause it’s good.

    1. rldk*

      I finally followed up on a health insurance today, and started my personal statement for law school applications. Granted it’s because I have nothing to do at work but yay for not procrastinating

  88. nonEmouse*

    Our manager got a new position, so they’ll be leaving right as our busy season kicks off. I’m totally happy for them (more money, less responsibility, closer to home, etc), but at the same time I’m really anxious about our busy season? It’ll easily be 2+ months before we get a new manager, so… we might have one around the time our busy season is winding down.

  89. Struggling with Adult CPS*

    I need to make a report to adult CPS about my disabled brother. My elderly parents are delusional about him. They refuse to get him medical help for his mental issues which are becoming worse and worse. He is now arguing with things that aren’t there and seeing things that aren’t there. He wasn’t medicated before (because my mother insists he’s “fine” (he’s not). He WAS medicated 20 years ago but my mother took him off his meds because “he got fat.” It’s been getting progressively worse, but last weekend was The Straw.

    Last weekend he sucker my very young daughter when she took his favorite blanket off the couch. My parents claim she “provoked” him and won’t listen to reason. I should’ve had him arrested, but I didn’t want to cause problems for my parents.

    My question is….if I call Adult CPS from work will my parents know? Is there a way to trace the information? I don’t want them coming after me, or worse, my wife. My mom claims my wife called CPS on her once before (she did not, but her friend did) and has threatened to sue my wife for it.

    1. Struggling with Adult CPS*

      That should read slapped, I don’t know where my phone got “sucker” from…

      1. Girlwithapearl*

        I do t have advice except that if an we’re you, my child would never be in the same room with my brother again.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      You can make an anonymous report. Just say you want to stay anonymous and nobody will tell them who reported. I had to do this for my grandparents, and it was awful, but a CPS worker went to visit them just a few days later, and it triggered them to actually get the care they needed.

    3. Murphy*

      I just want to say I’m so sorry…I have a disabled brother under the care of my parents and it’s not easy.

      It should remain anonymous no matter where you call from, but it sounds like your parents may suspect you/your wife anyway. I wish you the best.

    4. SoCalHR*

      Such a tough spot to be in, but I agree that you need to do what is best for your brother and your family (which sometimes is a tough choice).
      If you are in the US, you can dial *67 on your phone before typing in the number and that removes the caller ID, if you want an extra step of anonymity. But my understanding is that those types of reports can be kept anonymous.
      Also, I would document your concerns somewhere (maybe send an email to yourself so its time/date stamped) in the event there ever was legal actions from your mother so you can justify your actions.

      1. nonegiven*

        If it’s a toll free number *67 doesn’t hide your number, so call the non toll free number if you want to hide your Caller ID.

    5. Lumen*

      *NOT A LAWYER* But I’m pretty sure your mom can’t sue your wife for calling protective services, because unless it can be proven that your wife knowingly gave a fraudulent report to authorities, and did so with malicious intent, and it led to some tangible loss for your mother (being fired from her job due to the report, etc)… then there’s not a case there. “I’m mad at you” is not grounds for a lawsuit.

      I am really, really sorry you and your family are going through this. It sounds very much like your brother is being abused and needs to be removed so that he can get treatment and be safe. It sounds like your parents’ decisions are putting themselves, your brother, their neighbors, and YOUR entire family at risk of actual violence (and at the minimum, emotional trauma). You’re even worried about None of this is okay.

      Anyway, I did some digging and the information I found about adult protective services said “While laws vary from state to state, some states allow for APS reports to be submitted anonymously. Some states also protect the person making the report from civil and criminal liability, as long as the report was made in good faith. Such laws also protect those initiating reports from any professional disciplinary action.” (https://elder.findlaw.com/elder-abuse/adult-protective-services-what-you-need-to-know.html) – The page is focused primarily on elder abuse, but adult protective services should cover your brother’s situation also.

      So you may need to look up the laws in your particular state. I wish you the best of luck!

    6. Kj*

      APS reports should be anonymous, unless you are a mandated reporter. No one can sue a person for making a report in good faith.

      That said, just know APS is usually overworked and understaffed- so it might take multiple reports by multiple people to get action. Keep reporting. Overtime, the case builds and they are more likely to take action. Do your parents have guardianship over your brother?

    7. WellRed*

      Not sure what she thinks she could sue for, sounds like one of those empty threats. Please distance yourself from your parents and brother. He slapped your daughter. Your parents don’t see the problem.

    8. Environmental Compliance*

      When I worked for the county, in my state you could call APS/CPS anonymously. I had better luck with getting APS to do something much, much more than CPS.

      If his living conditions aren’t good either (issues other than the lack of medical help, such as lack of food, water, shelter, there’s cockroaches, things like that), you may want to talk to your county health department. An HD can take an anonymous complaint and escalate it for you to APS (at least, that’s how all the counties near me did it if there were concerns).

    9. No Easy Answers*

      I’ve worked for an agency that handled APS reports. The APS investigator can absolutely keep private who made the report from the caregivers—and your report may carry more weight if you tell the investigator details about what happened and what you know, i.e. who you are. That said, your parents may be able to guess that you made the report and accuse you. You could deny or decide if the rupture is worth it.

    10. Wibbets*

      I think agencies typically don’t disclose the identity of reporters. However, your parents will probably figure out that it was someone in your family because of the timing. I’m not sure if APS would consider this to be a well-founded case of neglect or not, but I obviously don’t know anything besides what you wrote here.

      I’m sorry that your brother hit your daughter and that your parents blamed her (WTF). I’m also glad you didn’t have your brother arrested. Police encounters can be dangerous for people with mental health issues and/or intellectual disabilities, and the criminal justice system is not a good place for people with mental illness (although US prisons are probably the country’s leading mental health providers, sadly).

    11. ..Kat..*

      1. Protect your very young daughter.
      2. Do you realize that CPS could be contacted to file a complaint AGAINST your brother?
      3. Protect your very young daughter. At a minimum, she should never be around your brother (or your mother), even with supervision.

    12. Anon Mental Health Professional*

      I’ve had to do reports to CPS as part of my job and these reports are normally anonymous. However, as others have said, your parents may suspect it was you who reported. If the investigator finds that your brother may need to be removed from the home, your parents will have to go to court and you may need to testify(As someone who has seen how your parents interact with your brother, you wouldn’t necessarily need to confirm you made the report). It seems like the report is warranted and I definitely think you should make the call. Just mentally prepare yourself for your parents to suspect it was you who reported and to possibly involved in any legal proceedings.

  90. AnonGD*

    This seems like a really basic question, but I’m fairly new to managing and am managing student interns. Any advice on how to get over the anticipation of being interrupted?

    It’s pretty unpredictable– sometimes I get interrupted 3-4 times an hour, other times an intern will go a whole shift without asking a question. But the interruptions are obviously disruptive and it takes time to get back on track. So I have a tendency to find myself avoiding the “deep work”/larger projects I need to tackle in favor of smaller tasks. I’m starting to think that I might not be cut out for managing but if anyone out there has some advice or things I should pay attention to/watch out for I’d love to know!

    1. fposte*

      You can block out time and ask the interns to hold their questions during those blocks.

      But 3-4 times an hour is a lot of interrupting–is this during just the first few days or does it go on? It sounds like more extensive training might be useful for these positions, or even just creating (or asking them to create) a checklist for ways to solve common problems on their own.

      1. AnonGD*

        Thank you!

        There are a couple things at play with the frequent interrupting that come to mind. The first is that we’ve had interns in the past that we probably should have fired, as tough as that is to say. We’ve definitely had some students that were just much less experienced in the software than they claimed to be (they’re design interns) and I don’t have the time for that much instruction… but my boss (not a designer) just does not agree with me on that which is an ongoing frustration. Luckily that’s not the case most of the time. And hopefully I can build some self-sufficiency with those interns with blocks of time for questions– I like that idea.

        I’ve noticed it sometimes happens with interns on projects that I think they just get nervous about, for whatever reason (i.e. I’ll get a “So I JUST email this to X and you, right?” like… yes, it’s on the top of your project description and I know you know that because you’ve never had an issue with it before, ha). That springs to mind as a common cause as best I can tell– I’ve tried little pep talks where I build in reassurance that they’ve been doing great work as I’m assigning something. But honestly, I can see where the block of time for questions can maybe help with that, too.

    2. Super stressed*

      Are you spending enough time up front to explain the task is to them? I try to check in at the beginning of the shift and explain the project, so they have opportunities to ask questions then. Then I go away, do my own thing, and around lunch time I check in to see if they have questions

      1. AnonGD*

        Ooh, honestly, I do have a full conversation with them when I assign things and in the mornings but I don’t typically revisit them throughout the day so I will work on that, too. I’ve done check-ins before but that was primarily just to make sure one intern was actually doing the work she was assigned… that’s a whole other, easier-to-solve issue, ha!

    3. SoCalHR*

      One other option – have set check in times with them each morning. Maybe start to stagger them an hour or so after the shift starts so they have time to collect their thoughts. If they know they have set time with you, they can hold all non-urgent questions for those one-on-one times. If they have no questions, move onto the next person (or enjoy a few a moment of silence). You can do this twice a day if needed, but that should help structure your day more. But since they’re interns I would also stress to them if something is *truly* urgent they can still come to you at any time.

      1. AnonGD*

        Thank you! Yeah, I think the reason I’ve just let them sort of run wild with questions is that I’m often just happy they’ve come to me and asked (even if it is an annoying disruption). But I think it’s time to start spelling out the difference between urgent and nonurgent.

    4. AeroEngineer*

      I’ve been that intern.

      Did you sit them down at the beginning and be very (very) clear at what you expect from them? My supervisor never did that (and later said that she should have), and it left me in an unclear position of how much authority I had and what level of decisions I was allowed to take. It ended up that her view and mine were not at all aligned, which we found out half way through my internship, but it took a very rough conversation as we figured that out. In reality I was to act pretty much like a team member and employee, and to own my work, when I understood it as being that I was to assist my supervisor in her work (cue lots of questions so that I didn’t mess something up, when in reality I was able and allowed to make all those decisions).

      Checking in at set times is also good, it gives some schedule for questions to be asked, and you can tell your interns to save their questions for that time. Also, don’t be afraid to say that you are busy and can’t answer questions when you are working etc.

    5. Washi*

      One thing I did when I managed 3 interns who all had the same job was, after the first month ish, encourage them to ask each other first if they had a question. That weeded out a lot of the little administrative questions and just left the bigger ones for me.

    6. Canarian*

      One thing I’ve been doing for interruptions is working on “deep work” tasks that are harder to interrupt on a pomodoro schedule. I set the timer (I use marinaratimer.com and keep the big, blinking clock open on my 2nd monitor) and if someone comes by during a pomodoro, I’ll ask them to come back in X minutes. My employees know about pomodoros, so they’re not weirded out if I give them some very specific amount of time. Usually the question isn’t something that’s so urgent it can’t wait a few minutes, and it’s worked really well so far.

      It helps me not break my flow of concentration, I just have to look at the clock and ask them to come back, and then I don’t have to write down a reminder or keep reminding myself to go talk to them, because I’ve basically asked them to be their own pop up notification when I know I’ll have a second to focus on them.

    7. Student*

      One of the things you get to teach an intern is: “How long should you try by yourself before you ask for help?”

      Sometimes it helps to give direct guidance on this for each major type of task, or to give them one overall guideline and some examples of exemptions. For example, from my work:
      Learning new software – try it for at least 2 hours before you come to me.
      Learning new hardware – try it for at least 4 hours before you come to me.
      Health/safety emergency – always an exception, come to me right away.
      Presentation – You can ask for help with the rough outline. You can ask me to look over a mostly-finished presentation. You can’t bring me something half-finished or come ask me about each powerpoint slide individually.
      Learning a mathematical/computational task – try it yourself for at least a work day before you come to me, unless you are totally stumped about where to begin or what we’re asking for.
      Chasing down someone else to help you – try for at least a week before you come to me, unless you’ve been told the task has a very short timeline.

  91. Erin*

    Bit of an odd story about new-grad networking adventures!

    I got an email last week telling me that a colleague of my dad’s had emailed a friend of hers, who is a partner in a major law firm in Ottawa, and told her I was looking for advice on job searching. Great, right? Except she had told her friend that I had a degree in something that sounds similar to her field but is actually mostly unrelated – think teapot sales vs. teapot construction, they share a word but don’t interact a whole lot.

    I emailed the friend, and explained that although our fields are different, I would still welcome any general advice if she was willing to give it. We set up a call for today (this was all further confused by the fact that we live a six-hour flight apart!), and it went pretty well. She had a few ideas that were helpful and was able to tell me a little about further options and resume builders in my field. Even though it was random and a little awkward when first arranging everything, it was a good conversation, not least because it helped me get more comfortable with the idea of speaking to people who are well-known in their field.

    Have you ever had a networking experience that seemed awkward or unhelpful at first and then turned out positive?

  92. Science!*

    I start my new job the day after Memorial Day. But I’ve already been pulled into a meeting with my new department, ha! It’s an internal move, so they went ahead and connected my email to the department’s list-serve and when an outlook invite showed up I accepted not knowing what it was about. It’s fine, everyone was happy to see me (and even happier that I’m starting soon, they are in the weeds right now and need people). Also they are interviewing for another open position and I’ve been invited to the interview.

    I am wondering though: during the meeting someone was discussing a problem and if I’d been through training I would have made a comment but instead held back (and someone else made the same comment I was thinking a minute later). Would it have been weird for me to participate in the meeting since I’m not officially in the department yet? I saw it more as a learning opportunity to see how the team operates.

    1. rldk*

      I think holding back as a learning opportunity was a good call. If you’d made a comment that seemed overly obvious to them, it might have felt condescending, or if it was something that doesn’t work at this specific company, it might have derailed them as they paused to explain.
      Definitely in some teams it would be fine to participate, but particularly since they were surprised to see you, the risk of it feeling off seems high.

  93. Gene Parmesan*

    I have a question about salary negotiations. I am currently employed, and I applied for an opening with another organization. I am a strong candidate for the new position and my interview went well, and I have some connections with this employer, and I think it’s very likely that I’ll get an offer. My current salary is $72K, and the salary range in the job posting was given as $50K-65K. My question is, if I get the offer, can/should I try to negotiate for a salary above the top of this range? If their best offer is $65K, I will probably take it, because the new job has better benefits, more opportunity for advancement, and it’s a lot closer to my house, so I’d save in commuting costs. But I would prefer it if they could match or come close to matching my current salary.

    1. Jenny*

      After they’ve made the offer: “I’m really excited about your company because of Y and Z and would like to be able to accept an offer. I’m currently making X. How far are you able to come up on the salary?”

      1. BRR*

        I like this wording. I don’t think they’ll match as they gave a pretty large range and asking for 72 might be a bit tone deaf.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      That’s tricky. I’d use Jenny’s wording about “how far up can you go on salary?” rather than ask for a specific number that’s above the top of the range. I’d also expect that they are not going to go over the range – since it was listed, it was kind of implied that the range was acceptable to you when you applied/interviewed.

  94. islandgardens*

    A question for UK commenters!

    Has anyone ever left before their notice period was over?

    My notice period at my job is three months, which is, of course, excessive, and reflective of the CEO’s harsh management style. I’m in a junior, poorly-paid role where the notice period really shouldn’t be more than two months. I want to find a new job soon, and I’d prefer not to give in my notice until I have a new job confirmed. From speaking to colleagues, I’ve learnt that most people give notice before nailing down a new job, but a lawyer I know and trust assures me that there’s nothing my employer will be able to do if I leave after two months (apart from creating an unpleasant atmosphere).

    Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this? Thank you!

    1. Mariella*

      3 months is excessive! Up to 2 years service at my company is 1 week’s notice, up to 4 is 2 weeks, and past then 1 month.

      I dont know how your holiday accrual works but i know some people have left earlier and used the remaining holiday for the last few weeks, and taken some ‘unpaid leave’ too?

      Or call ACAS maybe to clarify?

    2. Extra Anon Today*

      Do not resign from your present post until you have a job offer in writing.

      I am not a UK employment lawyer. But I was a union lay-rep at a site that went through a protracted closure process. I had several people ask me this question. When I asked, my senior union colleagues were unaware of any instance where my company had pursued anyone for not honoring their contract notice period.

      In the UK you will have an employment contract. Yours says something like “This contract can be terminated by either party with 3 months notice.” Most people would be glad that they will get at least 3 months notice before being terminated, and it is normally seen as good practice by an enlightened employer.

      If you want to leave earlier, then your theoretical liability is the cost of finding and employing someone to do your work during the period while your contract was still in force, but you were not there to do it. However, I have never heard of any employer doing this, because you could just turn up and refuse to do any work. My experience backs up your lawyer friend.

      In practice, any reasonable employer will want a discussion along the lines of ” I want to leave in 4 weeks time, these are my responsibilities, here is my transition plan”. The employer might want you to stay 6 weeks, which you have already decided is acceptable. You negotiate the opposite way with your new employer if/when you reach the offer stage: “My contractual notice period is 3 months, but I think I can handover my duties & projects and be able to start in 8 weeks”, thus giving yourself a 2-4 week buffer within which you can set the change-over date, or have an unpaid holiday if you can afford it.

      Again: Do not resign from your present post until you have a job offer in writing.

  95. Ann Perkins*

    I would love thoughts on how to handle a PTO/maternity leave situation.

    A couple months ago, during my annual review, I was given a nice raise. I also brought up that I would like an increase in PTO accrual, which my boss wasn’t expecting so he said he had to consult with the COO. Our PTO accrues based on years of service but I have a high responsibility, stressful job so I made the case that it would be good for me to start accruing at the next rate up, which I wouldn’t ordinarily hit for another year.

    My boss is wonderful but has a lot on his plate and hadn’t gotten back to me when I found out that I’m pregnant. We have no paid maternity leave, but I will receive STD. I’m worried if I bring up the request again, and then I’ll end up telling him I’m pregnant within a month, that it will look like I was just trying to circumvent the fact that we don’t have paid maternity leave. This will be 2 under 2 for me and I’m sensitive to the fact that we’re a small business and my last leave was very pricy for him, as my job is highly specialized and the interim person they hired while I was out was very costly. But if he was going to say yes to the PTO request, I hate to just leave that on the table, as I happen to know my predecessor in the role had also negotiated for additional PTO beyond what’s in the handbook. Anyone been in a similar situation or have advice on how to proceed?

    1. Emi.*

      I think you should stick to your request! What on earth is wrong with “trying to circumvent the fact that we don’t have paid maternity leave”? Isn’t that just what employees have to do when they don’t have paid maternity leave? You’re negotiating for a benefit that will turn out to be extra useful to you, not doing anything shady.

      If you’re worried you could always mention when you announce that ha ha, this thing you wanted anyway will turn out to be more useful than you realized! But I think it’s fine either way.

  96. Peaches*

    So hard to focus on this Friday!

    My husband is currently moving us into a new apartment, he graduates with his master’s Monday, and we’re going on a cruise the following week!

  97. Val*

    I’m not quite sure if this belongs here or not, but… what are your favorite sources for building a more professional and put-together wardrobe on a budget? I’m in an arts education type job so dress code is pretty flexible, but I would like to create a good first impression when interacting with new students and their parents. What are your go-to sources for affordable clothes, and generally figuring out how to put together a good wardrobe?

    1. Magee*

      I highly recommend the Kohl’s clearance section. You can find a lot of pieces that can be dressed up or down depending if they are for the office or date night. You can get a lot of the previous season’s items for about 70-90% of the price.

    2. Murphy*

      ThredUp and thrift stores are my favorites. Marshall’s/TJ Maxx, Kohls, and Target are good too. Check out clearance sections.

      Figure out what you like and what you’re comfortable in. Even if the clothes are professional and appropriate, you need to be comfortable. Start with some basic pieces that will go with a lot of other pieces. I tend to gravitate towards the same few colors, so it has the benefit that most things usually match. If you find something you like, like a cardigan, that comes in multiple colors, get several.

    3. SoCalHR*

      Have you tried ‘clothing exchange’ stores – the ones you can sell you clothes to and then they resell them to everyone? I’ve had some good luck there. It’s good to know some of the higher quality brands to assess if you’re getting a good price on something (same if you go to a thrift store).

    4. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I’ve had some success with Poshmark. Just be aware that some of the sellers are selling bulk crap, and typically won’t post photos of the actual item. But I have gotten some quality high-end pieces for like $20-30 (like a lovely cashmere tunic for $30!) from individuals. I like Poshmark because you can inspect the item upon receiving it, and they won’t charge you until you accept it, so you have a chance to send it right back if it’s not as described.

    5. cat socks*

      For figuring out how to put together a wardrobe, I find blogs like Putting Me Together, Wardrobe Oxygen and The Work Edit to be helpful. I think PMT even has a guide about how to build a wardrobe from scratch. It leans more on the casual side, but it looks like that would be okay with your situation.

      I like Old Navy, Target, Kohls and JC Penny for affordable pieces. Sometimes Macy’s as well.

    6. CTT*

      I was in H&M a few days ago and was really surprised at how many cute and professional-looking work clothes they had. A lot of it was in the $20-40 range; won’t break the bank, but also probably will hold up better than the $10 shorts I bought there. If you need to buy two or three outfits-worth of clothes without spending a ton, that would be a good place

    7. HannahS*

      Old Navy, Gap, H and M, and thrift stores. I don’t get fancy clothes there, but basic pants-that-aren’t-jeans, shirts-with-buttons-on-the-front and knit sweaters/cardigans are staples for me, and are of reasonable quality and price there. I get things that are close to 100% cotton and wash on cold and hang to dry–my clothes last a good 2-3 years before being “demoted” to weekend wear. I lean towards the casual side of business casual, most of the time.

    8. DrWombat*

      I really like Dress Barn! They have really professional outfits that are comfy, they have a very wide range of sizes, and they have good sales fairly often. Plus, their clothes last ages. I have some blouses that are like 7+ years old from them and they are still nice. They also have really good dress pants/slacks. Not super expensive, but well-made.

    9. Emily S.*

      Marshall’s/TJ Maxx is a pretty good place for professional clothes. I also like Target.

      And this might sound obvious, but make sure to try on clothes before buying — whenever possible. You want to feel comfortable and confident. Try to find clothes that flatter you. Sometimes I’ll find a top that looks perfect, but then I try it on, and the color just doesn’t work on me — I’m always glad I took the time to find that out before making a purchase.

      By the way, I avoid buying work clothes online, but it seems to be okay for others.

  98. Anonymous Academic Librarian*

    I contested my performance review, and a committee met to discuss it yesterday. I’m waiting on pins and needles! There’s no timeline for them to respond, so I have no idea if I’ll hear about the result today or not. I think I made a good case for a higher score (and bigger raise), but two of the committee members are biased. One is boss’s pet (and my complaint is about favoritism), and one goes to the same very authoritarian-style church as Grandboss.

    Wish me luck! Since raises ride on this, it’s important for me.

  99. Super stressed*

    I had an interview the other day and asked 90% of the questions. It was my third interview, and wasn’t with the hiring manager, but now I’m overthinking it…I figure it either means that they already like me a lot and were trying to give ME space to figure out if I want the job, or that I answered the few questions I was asked poorly and there wasn’t a point in asking more.

    Yipes!

  100. De Minimis*

    I have four job interviews this week, I’m about to head to my last one.

    I know it’s not good, but I’ve been calling in sick to go to the interviews. I have vacation time, but these were short notice and I don’t think vacation would be granted.

    I’ve already heard from one of the interviews yesterday, they want to schedule a follow up interview with me next Monday, so I’ll need to be gone then too. I had a prescheduled doctor appointment that day [which I can still go to] so I guess that will be my story when I return. I am dealing with stress and other medical issues right now, so it isn’t 100% falsehood, but I feel badly about it. And I will feel even worse if none of these materialize into an offer, and I will have to continue interviewing and continue to call in sick I guess. But I’m hopeful the one Monday will work out—it’s for an analyst position with a small town, and the interview is with the person who would be my boss. I had the dreaded government panel interview with them yesterday, but they apparently liked me enough to recommend me.

    Not sure what to do….when you’re looking for another job, but still have a lot of responsibilities at your current one, how do you manage having several job interviews? The situation is pretty dire at my current job, though, I’ve mentioned this before but my salary will be cut by nearly half in a couple of months so it’s imperative that I find something else ASAP. I feel like it’s getting harder to remain at my current job while I look for another. Most of my prospects are located in a different region from my current job, so it’s not a case where I can just leave early from work or come in late.

    1. Windchime*

      I did what you’ve done; I called in sick. My interviews were in Big City so there was driving, parking, etc and I couldn’t do it on a lunch break. Desperate times call for desperate measures and I didn’t feel bad about it.

      1. De Minimis*

        And now I have another interview scheduled later this week, so that will be 4 days called out sick over a 7-day period.

        I’m really hoping I might get some kind of offer over the next couple of days to where I could just cancel the interview later this week and just come into work and start planning the transition period. Things are actually not in a bad position as far as someone else being able to take over–we have a temp who has been helping out in my department for the last year who I can train to take over more aspects of my job. We also have a lot of good documentation on the various work processes for my job.

        Hoping I will have good news to share by the next Friday Open Thread….this site has been so invaluable to me. I’ve done well [I think] on all of the interviews I’ve had during this past week, and it’s really been due to the advice here.

  101. Decima Dewey*

    Hello all. I have a new boss, who’s learning the ropes. I’m out to help him succeed (don’t want to be acting manager again). Trouble is, while he’s doing what needs to be done, it’s not sitting well with the staff. They already reacted badly to him asking to be Mr. Lastname on the floor (he’s a children’s librarian and wants the kids to treat adults with respect). Staff said they’d “give him a chance to act right”. Sorry, guys, I warned you that things would be changing. Mr. Lastname is the new boss, what he says goes. Just because I was resigned to dealing with all your issues doesn’t mean he will be.

    I’ve looped in Grandboss, emphasizing that what New Boss is trying to do is what should be done.

    1. Toastedcheese*

      Fellow public librarian here. I don’t know that there’s much you can do to manage this relationship, except keep communication. However, I’m wondering if there’s a cultural difference here? Someone asking to be called Mr. Lastname can come off really differently depending on your age, gender, and cultural background. It would personally weird me out a bit.

    2. A Nickname for AAM*

      Oh I feel for you!

      I’m the New Mr. Lastname at my work. The person who had the job before me had poor job knowledge and was allowing the staff to do things they shouldn’t (not following safety rules, curriculum, basic industry standards of operation.) I am telling them that, yes, these are the rules and we’re going to follow them now.

      I made a point of getting to know everyone, working to remove some of the “pain points” from their jobs, and explaining to them WHY we are making these rules (failing safety audits.) I am getting nothing but angry pushback, “That’s not how we do things here!” and “You’re going against my training (by our last boss)!” and “You have to show me a citation because you don’t know what you’re doing!” One of the things they are not allowed to do is cancel programming without notifying a supervisor, the other is mishandle toxic chemicals against OSHA and CDC guidelines. So I’m not asking for something too crazy.

      They’ve been given a group warning about new procedures, they are getting one more, and then come the writeups, action plans, and terminations.

  102. girasol*

    Anyone have experience taking a new job at a company before it gets an office? I’ll be employee #3 at a company’s newest branch that launched a few months ago, so they don’t have a local office yet. The other two employees at this branch co-work from coffee shops, occasionally rent space at co-working spaces, work from home, and are in the field a lot anyway. It’s not a remote culture at all, but it’s definitely “pre-office” life.

    Any suggestions for how to make this work well? Especially as it relates to building strong relationships with my colleagues despite not being in an office together all day, being productive while working in changing locations (I tend to prefer the familiarity of my own desk and second monitor ;)), and avoiding feeling isolated?

    If it’s helpful: They’re planning to rent a co-location space within six month and get a small office within a year after getting closer to the 10-15-employee mark. So this is temporary! Thanks, all.

  103. Bad Candidate*

    I got a job offer on Monday! WOOHOO! I’m very excited, this is a company that I’ve wanted to work at since we moved to this city. I gave notice this morning and it went fine. They didn’t try to make me feel guilty or anything, just very understanding. So I’m glad that all went smoothly. Anyway, just wanted to share the good news!

  104. Gotham Bus Company*

    I have held managerial titles in my organization for over 20 years. However, because of a quirk in our pay ranges, I’m actually considering asking for a demotion in order to make more money (paid overtime) with less stress. If it’s granted, how should I reflect that on my resume and in interviews? Should I just omit the last 20 years and pretend that I’ve been a mid-level analyst all this time? Or should I admit that I accepted the demotion for the money?

    1. Becky*

      I feel like this is kind of common in some industries or career tracks–one level has a specific salary band, but a different track has a salary band that starts lower but has a higher upper limit–I wouldn’t ignore all that experience, just explain you decided to change career tracks and took a lower level position to get new experience.

      1. Gotham Bus Company*

        Except that it wouldn’t be “new” experience at all. I would actually be returning to a role I last had in 1996, and my reasons are purely monetary. (That title has gotten more raises over the years than my current title has, so the pay ranges are now similar and the lower title gets overtime.)

        1. ..Kat..*

          How sure are you that you won’t get pushed to do a lot of the higher level job tasks that you want to leave behind? This is a possibility since it would be the same company.

  105. Magee*

    Does anyone have any tips or suggestions when you have a chatty boss? I had a 1:1 scheduled with her this morning at 8:30. And we didn’t actually get to it until 9 because she spent 30+ minutes standing at her desk socializing with her neighbors. With me standing at her desk waiting for her the whole time. This has happened a few times before. I also have trouble finding her for certain things because every time she gets up from her desk (to go to the bathroom, get coffee, etc) she will stop and talk to anyone she meets along the way. She can literally be gone for an hour for a bathroom trip because she stops and talks to almost everyone she comes across. It’s normally not a huge deal, but there can be time sensitive things that I need her input on and I can’t find her. Or with the meeting this morning, if I had anything else on my schedule, I would have been screwed.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Do you have office-wide instant messaging software? I use ours to show me when my boss is idle/away, and it even lets me tag certain people for status changes, so I get a pop-up when she starts using her computer again.

      I use this to go back to my office, message her “I’m ready to meet about the Llama Grooming project, let me know when you’re free”, which helps when she’s talking to other people in her office. Her office is really close to my office, so for when she’s away, I wait to see her change from Away to Active, and since I know she just sat down and grabbed her mouse I’ll pop over and say “Is this a good time to talk about the Llama Grooming project?”

      Otherwise, can you ask her if you can text her when you get these emergency/critical issues that require her input?

      1. Susan the BA*

        My director is often in meetings that run late, so if I see that they’re gone or talking with someone else, I just go back to my desk and send them an instant message: ‘Didn’t want to interrupt but I’m ready for our meeting whenever you are’. If I have something else scheduled I may say ‘This is still a good time for me to meet but I have that project meeting at 9:30, so let me know if rescheduling would work better for you.’

      2. Magee*

        These are good suggestions. I guess I’m more asking what to do when I experience something like this morning. Where I’m at my boss’ desk so we can walk to the conference room together for our 1:1 and she starts chatting with my co-worker, or someone walking by, or whatever and I end up standing there for 3o minutes. Should I just politely wait it out? Try to remind her of our meeting?

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          I think I would politely interject a “I’ll go and set up for our meeting in the conference room and see you when you’re ready.” I intensely dislike standing waiting for someone else to finish a conversation.

    2. Thlayli*

      If I went to someone’s desk for a meeting and they weren’t there I would leave a note and go back to my desk. If I could see them I would walk up to them and say “are we doing this meeting or do you want to postpone?”

      Standing at a desk for 30 mins waiting for someone is a really unusual way to behave – is that the norm in your office?

  106. A White Dude*

    In both AAM’s recent podcasts and her book (which is great, btw), she talks about the importance of tone. I know in both my personal and professional life, tone matters a lot. There is a big difference between, “hey, I really would like you to stop doing X” when it is delivered matter-of-factly vs. angrily or whiney.

    I couldn’t help but think of the concept of tone policing, which is where a member of a marginalized group talks/complains/vents about their experience, and then the focus becomes on how the aggressiveness of their tone vs. the worthiness of their complaint. This is exacerbated by the fact that certain groups are often seen as being more aggressive even when their behavior is no different from how a white dude might act.

    I’m just having trouble with the dissonance between these two ideas: that the way in which you talk to people matters a lot vs. not wanting to put the focus on the how a message is delivered at the expense of the actual message itself. In conversations I’ve been in regarding equity, inclusion and social justice, the attitude is sometimes, “well white/straight/cis people just need to deal with it.” And while i do think it is incumbent upon white/straight/cis people to embrace discomfort and watch their defensiveness, if how we talk to people matters in every other instance of our lives, why wouldn’t it also matter when discussing really loaded and sensitive subjects? (I should add that in a lot of spaces that deal with these loaded and sensitive subjects, they have explicit rules of conduct to ensure that it is a safe and productive environment).

    Anyways, that’s something I’ve been struggling with. Does anyone have any thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      I guess I’m not seeing a dissonance so much as a different focus. When you’re conveying a message, paying attention to your tone can help your message come across most effectively. When you’re listening to a message, responding to the tone instead of the message can block communication.

      All messages are most effective when tone is factored in to their delivery. But that doesn’t mean the message itself doesn’t matter or that it’s reasonable for the respondent to focus on the tone and not the message, and when it’s your own communication, it makes sense to consider all the ways you can make it successful.

    2. Nant*

      I’m with fposte on this one – it’s very much a different focus. I think it would be like if you asked your coworker angrily to turn down their music, and your coworker refused to do it because you didn’t say it “nice enough”, which would be tone-policing. In both cases, anger would make the recipient feel uncomfortable and possibly upset, but you wouldn’t necessarily not do the thing because it wasn’t said in a nice tone of voice, which distinguishes it from tone-policing.

      1. A White Dude*

        The dissonance to me is the difference between the message “how you talk to people matters a lot” and the message “people shouldn’t react to how we talk to them.” I think constructing a no-win scenario where if people talk about their experience with oppression just politely enough, they’ll finally be heard is not good, but I also think deciding, “I’ve experienced oppression, so any rules of common decency and normal human interaction no longer apply to me” is also not good.

        1. fposte*

          I think we’re heading toward both political and straw man territory there, so I don’t think that’s a conversation for the Friday thread or maybe here it all. Suffice it to say that it’s worth paying more attention to our own tone and less to others’.

          1. A White Dude*

            I didn’t mean to set up a straw man. As I said, most of the conversations I’ve had around this subject have been respectful and had pretty clear ground rules to ensure they were productive. And most of the arguments I’ve heard against tone policing have focused mostly on letting people express their anger and frustration. And I think it has been instructive to understand how people feel tone policed, to ensure that I’m not focusing on people’s tone. but then i wonder how do you think about your tone if you are from a group where your tone is likely to be misinterpreted/exaggerated/become a method to derail your argument? it just seems like a complicated area.

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          I think the problem is that you’re reducing the concept of tone policing to something that it isn’t. “People shouldn’t react to how we talk to them” isn’t the message to take away from a discussion of tone policing. In fact, tone policing is something that is really not about tone of voice at all — it’s a much bigger-picture issue that has to do with forms of protest, ways of making marginalized voices heard in the specific realm of activist discourse. It’s not “Well Barbara needs to hand me a pushpin if I ask for one, even if I say it snottily.”

          1. A White Dude*

            I guess what I’m pondering is where is the line between presenting your argument in a way that is not going to immediately get the other person’s back up and shut them down, and in telling people to suck it up and be polite when they are complaining about egregious acts of discrimination (which puts way too much burden on the person on the receiving end of discrimination). where’s the line between not taking care of white people’s feelings (to quote something I hear a lot in some circles), and having a conversation in a way where you are able to be heard, which might mean managing white peoples feelings? As of now, there is a lot incumbent on marginalized people trying to present their case in ways that won’t freak out white people. The idea of shifting that burden to white people to not get freaked out is appealing, but seems to be overly optimistic given that in so many other spheres of our lives how people talk to us and how we talk to people has a huge impact.

    3. FD*

      I think this is actually kind of a complicated question, and complicated by multiple factors.

      First, let’s imagine all tone in a vacuum, magically free of power dynamics, systematic bias, etc. Let’s imagine the request “Would you please put the widgets in the pink box next time?” On one end, someone is shouting and angry. In the middle, someone is calm but firm. On the other end, someone is tentative and unsure.

      Most people will a more negative reaction at the negative/belittling end of the spectrum. Most people will react more positively to the calm/firm middle. And some people will not take the tentative/unsure end seriously.

      But then things get complex, because in the real world, where those breakpoints are *tend* to be affected by cultural baggage. For example, a man may say something and be perceived as calm/firm and a woman might use the same tone and be seen as shading into negative/belittling.

      But that doesn’t mean that all discussions about tone are a symptom of systematic bias. Learning to project the tone you want is a useful management skill for any person. That said, if you’re a member of any group that has been disadvantaged, you probably also end up spending additional time adjusting tone for what works for you. (Example, as a female professional, I suspect think a lot more about the line between ‘acceptably aggressive’ and ‘too aggressive’ than a male professional in my role would.)

      1. A White Dude*

        Yeah, maybe what I’m hearing from people is frustration at having to watch their tone so closely, when their white/male coworkers don’t have to.

        1. Sparkly Lady*

          This seems like more of a weekend question to me than a Friday question, but it is interesting to me because I’ve been struggling with this a lot lately, too. In the social justice-oriented circles I’m in, the line between pushing back against tone policing and using the theory of tone policing to rationalize abusive behavior seems much more blurry in practice than I typically see people admit. I also do see some of what you’ve raised of people denying that tone does matter for persuasive communication as well as a lot of assumptions being made about other group’s experiences that may or may not be true.

    4. mreasy*

      Tone policing is when different standards are applied to different groups: e.g., accusing a woman of being too “abrasive” when a man with the same style of talking is simply called “assertive.” Not tone policing: e.g., telling someone not to yell or swear at their coworkers. It’s simple.

    5. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      I think it’s mostly a difference in areas. The places I’ve heard “tone policing” being most of a concern is in more social spaces, and especially activist spaces – in effect, places where people really are concerned more about the message than how it’s presented. Someone who’s an activist and screaming something that you wouldn’t necessarily say in polite company might be acting like a jerk, but their underlying message still stands. For lack of a better term, identity politics in general are really fraught in the US, and sometimes people get SUPER EMOTIONAL about things. I think in its most benign form, you’re basically saying, “Hey, don’t hold their behavior against them because this is Super Important.”

      (Of course, this can be abused! Being marginalized doesn’t mean you’re immune from being a jerk. And some people do step over the line. But that’s the basic gist of it. I could get into – let’s say – respectability politics, but that would be a REALLY heated comment.)

      On the other hand, at work, it’s really unfortunate but presentation matters as much (if not more than) your actual message, since that implies how your message is supposed to be taken. If I’m casual about something I have to do, that implies something entirely different than if I put on my serious face and voice. It’s a place where your emotions are expected to be set at the door – you’re supposed to keep everyone as comfortable as possible.

      Also, as a (really tall black) dude that supervises a team of mostly women of varying ethnic groups and backgrounds, I have to be conscious that I’m not making people uncomfortable. Me standing over someone’s shoulder would be taken differently from a smaller person or a woman standing over someone’s shoulder. Me using my Serious Voice is different from my co-supervisor using her Serious Voice.)

      So, basically, different rules for different spaces.

  107. Parenthetically*

    Anybody here ever done editing for doctoral dissertations? I’m thinking about doing it as a side job and would love insights!

    1. Thlayli*

      I did it for a friend of mine who’s supervisor wasn’t great. I found that her research was really good but she had no idea how to write a thesis. I helped her restructure it and she took it from there.

      I would assume paying someone to edit your thesis is against the rules though.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Oh no, it’s not against the rules anywhere I know of. I have a couple acquaintances who’ve done it as full-time, fairly lucrative jobs, and I was approached by a prof friend of mine asking me if I was interested in making some money editing. There certainly are guidelines, of course.

        1. Thlayli*

          I guess it must be different in your country then, because I have never heard of someone openly employing someone else to do or help with their academic work. Pretty sure that would be considered cheating here. Paying a professional is very different from asking a friend to read and comment.

          1. Parenthetically*

            I mean, they’re essentially writing a book, so hiring an editor seems fair to me. I’m in the US. One of the local graduate programs has a full-time employee who checks every dissertation for formatting — it’s basically her entire job — but many students need additional help with sentence structure, continuity, etc.

    2. School Psych*

      I haven’t done this, but I just hired someone to help me with copy-editing and formatting of my dissertation. Pretty much everyone in my cohort did. It’s definitely not against the rules and is seen as sort of the equivalent of hiring a tutor to help you with something you’re having difficulty with. It’s time consuming and difficult to edit and format a project of that size. If you were hiring someone to do the actual writing that would be shady, but all my person did was clean up what I’d already done and make sure it met the formatting specifications my university wanted. People also hired other doctoral students who were more proficient with statistical analysis programs to help them run and understand their data. Basically people who used these services asked their advisors for recommendations, so if you’re in school, I would let your professors know you provide this service. If you’re not, then I would try to make a connection with department heads at universities so they can pass your information along to students. People tend to get this kind of work through word of mouth, so once you have students who are happy with your work, you’ll get other clients. The person I used charged $50 per hour and it was well worth it.

  108. Ann Furthermore*

    Well…I’m at the end of 2 weeks into working in an open office, and I have to say, it’s not as bad as I thought it would be. Don’t get me wrong; I’d rather have a cubicle any day of the week, but I was very apprehensive about it, and kept telling myself to keep an open mind. Each work space is probably 5 feet wide, so you still have some personal space, and it’s not a hot-desking setup, which would be horrible. The only thing about my work space that I didn’t like was my chair…it was killing my back. Plus, I’m pretty tall, and not a petite person. The chair that came with my desk did not adjust to slide the seat out, so it felt like I was sitting on the edge of my seat. Yesterday I spied a nicer one in a jumble of chairs in a storage area, and this morning I came in early and grabbed it. SO much better!

    The one thing I really could do without is that there’s a game room right by my work area, which does get loud during the day with people playing ping pong, foosball, and air hockey, and yelling “WHOAAAAAAA!!!!!” every time there’s an exciting play of some kind. Yay for headphones.

  109. anon518*

    Our director recently told our team that it was true that there wasn’t much of a career path in our department, but pointed out that there were a lot of opportunities to learn things. Could this mean that the department is sort of OK with being a training ground for other employers?

  110. Gracie*

    What’s the etiquette for maintaining a personal relationship with a co-worker who was fired and isn’t on good terms with some on my fellow office mates? I was close with this co-worker and never had any negative professional encounters with them and would like to keep in touch. However, my boss and some other senior management seem very against outside communication with this co-worker. Any thoughts on how to proceed?

    1. Susan K*

      There’s nothing wrong with choosing to keep in touch with this person, and you don’t have to inform your coworkers about it. Use your personal e-mail account, NOT your work e-mail, and be judicious about what you tell the fired person about work. As tempting as it may be to discuss the latest hot gossip with your friend who used to work there, you don’t want to give her any confidential information or tell her anything that you could get in trouble for saying if it comes back to the company.

    2. Seriously?*

      Don’t talk to your friend about work and don’t talk about your friend at work. So long as you keep your friendship and professional life separate I don’t think it should be an issue.

      1. rldk*

        +1
        Also prepare mental scripts in case your friend tries or keeps trying to talk about work. Gentle, but don’t give in.

      2. Thlayli*

        This. I’m curious how your boss even knows you are still friends. My boss couldn’t name any of my friends.

    3. Nacho*

      Depends on what he was fired for/how bad of terms is he on. If he did something super unprofessional like sexual harassment, then not dropping him like a hot potato is going to reflect badly on you. Pretty sure there’s an AaM post about that very subject somewhere, but I’m too lazy to find it. If it was just general incompetence though, it should be fine.

  111. Handy nickname*

    Posted late last week and wanted to give it another shot:

    I’m looking for short (3-4 minutes) videos to use in a weekly staff meeting. Context: retail grocery chain, attendees are department & store managers (8-10 people in each meeting). I’m looking for videos related to retail/customer service/sales or similar topics- anything that would be practical and interesting.

    I was thinking TED talks, but not finding a whole lot of relevant ones that are short enough. I found a video that I love by Dan Heath (link below) to give you an idea of what I’m looking for.

    Any suggestions? I’ll make a list :)

    2. BunnyWatsonToo*

      Check The FISH Philosophy videos about customer service and teamwork on YouTube.

  112. Crowdsourcing Ideas*

    Does anyone have suggestions for jobs that allow or even encourage moving from place to place every year or so? My partner is soon to be on the post-PhD track and will be doing post-docs and whatnot for awhile. I’m in a transitional period where I’m open to completely different lines of work. Is there anything that will allow me to follow without wrecking my resume?

    1. Nant*

      Will temping or fixed-term roles be an option? Covering for maternity leave, illness etc.? I’m not sure what the perception of managers on several fixed term roles is, if you note they were fixed term, but it might be an option to avoid job-hopping.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I’m a developer and I keep getting recruiters calling me for work-from-home contract positions, that are typically 3-6 months in duration. Do you have any kind of experience in IT or whatever field that might follow a similar format? LinkedIn seems chock full of recruiters looking for contract workers, so that might be a place to look.

  113. Weary Traveler*

    I often need my car to travel to different nearby job sites for work, but my employer will not provide parking near my office. That is reserved for higher-ups, and a few who also have work that takes them to different sites, but do not report to my manager. Instead I am expected to take a shuttle to offsite parking when I need my car, even if it is multiple times a day. I have worked around the problem by parking illegally on the street, and so far have not been ticketed. My manager is aware of this, and has hinted that I may be asked not to park on the street. The city does not like when employees do this, apparently, and the company wants to maintain a good relationship with the city.

    I was not made aware that I would need my car for work before I took the job less than a year ago. I am dissatisfied here for a number of reasons mostly having to do with my manager. I am already looking and will leave as soon as I find something, but and if I am told I cannot park on the street, I cannot see myself staying until I have something else lined up. I will want to leave under the premise that this job is not what I signed up for. (I signed up for a job where offsite parking would work because I would not need my car for more than commuting.)

    My question: can anyone think of a leg I have to stand on? Should I consult a labor lawyer to be prepared should I be told I can’t park on the street? It wouldn’t really rise to the level of Constructive Discharge, but the job I accepted and the job I am doing are not the same. The car use and parking are a symptom of that.

    It is probably worth mentioning that I cannot go over my manager’s head and explain that I need parking to his manager or to HR. He has already told me I would be doing that against his wishes. When I did ask for parking, he let it slip after declining my request that one of the reasons was “honestly, who knows what you’ll ask for next?” (I had asked for a standing desk.) Then he called me a “complainer”.

    I already knew my manager was vindictive because I can see it in the way he talks about other people, and the ways he wields power even though deep down he is clearly insecure. But since this conversation, I have seen that he makes management decisions (what work to give me, what business tools to provide, what information to share with me) based on wanting to keep me in my place. So I will not be going over his head about parking – I am trying to make things bearable until I can leave. I just want to be prepared should I be told I cannot park on the street. That would be the last straw for me.

    1. Weary Traveler*

      Oh, wow that turned into a really long post! TLDR: what recourse do I have when my job is not as described, and my employer could make it more tenable, but refuses to.

      1. animaniactoo*

        You are missing a piece here: You actually NEED to go over your manager’s head while you continue to look for somewhere else.

        The company needs to know that they have a manager who is unwilling to allow an employee a reasonable accommodation and is instead forcing them into an unreasonable setup. They may have had other complaints about him – but from the little you’ve posted, he sounds like he’s on a power trip that is detrimental to the company and possibly escalating.

        But yeah – your company can tell you not to do an illegal thing and that it would be grounds for dismissal if you continue to do it. Because it’s an illegal thing. You don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to that.

        1. fposte*

          I don’t think this is a request for a reasonable accommodation in the legal sense, though; Weary doesn’t have a disability, just an understandable preference.

          1. animaniactoo*

            Right, I’m saying “reasonable accommodation” in terms of what is available within the company, given that employees who work for *other* managers get access to on-site parking if they travel frequently.

            The company should be interested in the fact that something they are *willing* to provide as a job-needs-based thing is being denied to one of their employees because the manager… just doesn’t want to let them have it.

    2. Seriously?*

      It doesn’t really sound like anything is illegal in this situation. It is frustrating, but legally they are not required to provide parking close by. If you are hourly and they are not paying you for the time it takes to go offsite, then maybe you can make a case that it should be on the clock, but other than that I don’t think there is much you can do.

    3. Mack*

      Is it possible in the meantime to block all of your travel together into one day a week or larger chunks of the day to avoid the constant running around, illegally parking, or dealing with the shuttle to offsite?

      Sorry I don’t have any other suggestions.

    4. fposte*

      If you’re in the US and your question isn’t about accommodation for a disability, there’s no obligation for them to provide you with onsite parking even if they want you to drive, and there’s nothing illegal about that turning out to be part of the job even if they didn’t tell you in advance.

      I get that it’s a PITA, but it’s really not uncommon to only have access to parking via a shuttle.

      1. Weary Traveler*

        Yeah, I guess I knew this on some level. My resentment is really deep about this so I was hoping it is more than it appears on the surface

    5. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I’m with you on the frustration with having this requirement sprung on you after taking the job! That would make me clench my jaw anytime the subject came up.

      Parking illegally on the street is not really your company’s problem, though. You shouldn’t be doing it. It is more than the City not wanting them to, if the streets are posted as No Parking, no one should be parking there.

      A separate issue that I know you didn’t ask about, but I wonder: Does your car insurance cover using it for work? If it doesn’t (and many plans specifically exclude that except for commuting), there’s a whole other problem.

      1. Weary Traveler*

        It’s two-hour parking but I stay there more than two hours sometimes. So I am not in a fire lane or blocking traffic flow. Nor will I park in front of a business or at a bus stop. So I guess it’s not illegal, just “overtime”.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Ah, gotcha.

          Have you documented how much time the use of the parking shuttle takes during your work day? They are, I assume, paying for that portion of your workday, right?

          Making a case for closer parking due to time wasted might be helpful. (But, I suspect you have already done so.)

    6. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Or another possibility is just to do the shuttle like you have been instructed to do and let I take however long it takes. Get some podcasts for the ride. If your whole day ends up being spent riding the shuttle, that’s your manager’s problem and he can figure out how to handle the resultant loss in productivity. Don’t stay late to make up for it. If he’s upset at how long you are gone, make him figure out a solution. He may get mad but if you are prepared to leave the job over it anyway, why not try playing it how you were told to play it? I don’t see what the downside for you is.

      1. Short & Dumpy*

        This is exactly how I would handle it. They clearly consider paying you to sit on a shuttle to be a better value to the company than arranging for close parking. I absolutely would NOT be parking my car closer and risking a ticket. Right now, you’re taking the risk and not making them bear the cost so (from their point of view) why would they change anything?

      2. Friday*

        This would be my approach as well. They are paying you to ride the shuttle! Do it cheerfully and enjoy the podcasts.

    7. Peal*

      I feel like I’m missing something – why is the shuttle the dealbreaker? I understand the dissatisfaction between what you were offered (no off-site visits) and what you ended up with (site visits multiple times a day) but the focus on the shuttle is throwing me. Why is doing an undesirable job and parking on the street tenable in the short term, but doing the same job and taking a shuttle something worth quitting immediately over?

  114. CC*

    Hi all! Anyone remember this letter? https://www.askamanager.org/2013/07/how-can-i-help-save-my-boyfriends-family-business-without-losing-my-mind.html

    I’m basically in the same situation, except I’m working for a dear friend of 15+ years and her mom isn’t involved in the daily operations of the business anymore (well, except for trying to sell the building out from under her daughter’s business :/ ). My friend’s front desk person quit right when I needed a survival job so I’m helping out part-time while I work on my job search. It seemed like a perfect solution to both our problems, and I’m getting some customer service and admin experience that will be very useful on a resume.

    It turns out that the dynamics at work are…not great. My friend vents to me about things that she really shouldn’t be complaining to an employee about – e.g. badmouthing other employees or clients. I also disagree with other aspects of how she runs things but it’s literally Not My Business so I’m trying to keep my mouth shut and just be helpful. Also, my one other coworker vents to me all the time about things my Friend-Boss does when she’s not there. In all situations I keep my mouth shut and nod my head and try and extricate myself gracefully from the situation, but it’s difficult and emotionally stressful. Everyone is all smiles around each other, though, and the whiplash is just dizzying to me.

    This isn’t normal or good, right? I feel like this is straining my relationship with a very good friend too much. Should I be trying to find another survival job ASAP or stick it out until I can find a full-time job that actually has a future? Adding a nice monkey wrench into the situation is that I’m looking for a career change, so I’m really unsure what jobs to pursue next.

    Uggggh.

    1. fposte*

      I would get out ASAP if you want to preserve the friendship. It’s possible to work with friends, but it’s really crucial to be able to separate the work and private streams, and your friend seems unable to do that.

  115. Leela*

    Sorry if this has already been posted but has anyone seen this article promoting “gumption”
    http://www.businessinsider.com/graduate-hired-by-mccann-worldwide-for-imitating-the-fearless-girl-statue-2018-5

    I really wish they’d do accurate numbers of how many people have tried something like this and had it tank, because I’m afraid this article is going to put some bad ideas into people’s heads. More power to them for getting the jobs but man oh man would I not recommend this in most cases!

    1. Lindsay J*

      Stupid.

      And also, the article fails to point out that these appear to all have been for marketing positions. In this case, the candidates are sort of showing off their skills to the employer in that they are marketing themselves.

      I don’t think if they were applying to be, say, an accountant, that these stunts would be as useful.

      1. Becky*

        Now I’m trying to picture what ostentatious public showing off for accountancy would look like…

  116. SubwayFan*

    I’ve been out in the work world for about 15 years, at my current position for 6. At this point, I know I can’t get promoted in my current role, despite the fact that my output is equivalent to 4 people’s work and I’ve created new programs, and worked on my division’s strategy significantly. The opportunities don’t come along often, and I’ve reached the point where I hear this phrase a lot: “We can’t give you a team to manage because you’ve never managed a team.” I always point out I’ve led multiple project teams, just not direct reports outside of interns, but it doesn’t help.

    In any event, I’ve decided that if I want to go up, it will have to be outside this company. I’m starting to take a risk and apply to roles with titles like “Director.” I’m currently a Senior Marketing Manager, and I’d say what I do is middle management (albeit without direct reports). But I’ve gotten a few calls for phone interviews for some of these roles (including one for a CTO position), and it occurs to me, are there different sets of questions I should prepare for if I’m interviewing for a more senior role? Or more senior type questions I should think to ask? I always ask “what’s a typical day like here” in interviews, but will that be seen as too basic for a person interviewing for this kind of role?

    Any insight from folks on how to make that leap from mid- to senior-level in a job search would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I just made this leap myself (mid-level to a Director role – I start my new job next month) and a lot of my questions were strategy-based. I wanted to get a good sense of their approach to problems and what they saw as top priority issues that I’d be facing within my first 6-12 months. One of my biggest problems in my current role is a lack of collaboration and communication throughout the organization, so I asked a lot of questions that would help me get an idea of their culture with regards to those areas.

  117. Lady By The Lake*

    RANT — I am an expert working on a project and we had to have a team of non-experts help, because that’s what we were given. They were really nice folks doing their best, but Mistakes Were Made, and we are just learning the scope of some of them. They are doozies, and not ones that were expected. For example, I clearly instructed them that the blue teapots were flawed and needed to be smashed, but the yellow teapots just needed some work to be fixed. They smashed ALL of the teapots (including some green ones). We are trying to get to the bottom of what happened — did all of the teapots go through quality control? If not, which ones didn’t? What got smashed and what got shipped to the client? At this point, I just need to know what actually happened so we can do damage control. The problem is that instead of just ‘fessing up and providing answers, their boss has taken the position that no mistakes have been made — a position that she isn’t qualified to opine on. No Sansa, the yellow teapots shouldn’t have been smashed, the blue ones should have. No Sansa, we shouldn’t have shipped any blue ones to the client and if we did, we need to tell them that those are defective. I’m so frustrated I could scream.

    2. Lady By The Lake*

      What makes it more irritating is that the mistakes are SOOOOO obvious. There is a spreadsheet that for every single teapot has an instruction “smash this” “fix this” “ship this”. But her team sent the whole list to the teapot smashers with the instruction, “smash everything.” I seriously don’t understand why she is trying to defend that.

      1. rldk*

        Ugh that is incredibly frustrating! Is there someone in their reporting chain you can talk to about moving forward? Approaching it with the “we want to make sure we’ve fixed this for the client” will be the easy part – the calmness Alison recommends I’m sure will be an understandable struggle :(

      2. Short & Dumpy*

        I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the reason she is defending it so hard isn’t because she was the one who told her team to just simplify things and go that route.

        Best of luck…I’ve had to clean up others’ major messes a few times in my career & it is never a good time!

  118. Nant*

    Anyone got any tips on making it in a workplace that has really outdated training materials? I recently left a role after six months because the training materials I was given were *really* outdated and I kept making mistakes. The software interface had completely changed since it was written, procedures had changed, documentation formats had changed, and no-one had thought to update it since everyone else had been there long enough to not need them. Breaking point came when I was asked to train a lower member of staff in a certain procedure according to the training materials, and senior staff kept having to interrupt every five minutes to correct me on something that wasn’t updated in the training materials I was given, which was really embarrassing and frustrating. /o\ Is there any way to make it in that kind of environment?

    1. Toastedcheese*

      I’ve never had good (or any) training materials in detail-oriented / admin jobs. I took a lot of notes and referred to my notes or coworkers when I had a question. In one job I ended up volunteering to update the training materials myself, but I had lots of downtime to do this, and I very much doubt they’ve been maintained since I left.

      1. Peaches*

        Same here. I worked in an admin job with minimal training. About a year in, I created my own training documents for the next person in my position/others in the office who it would help.

        Take lots of notes! Write everything down that you will need to reference again, so that you can make updates to the outdated training documents, or create your own.

    2. Mickey Q*

      I once started a job (in the 21st century) and asked for a procedures manual. They handed me one from the 1900s. The first page said “Reach around to the back of the Wang and flip the switch to the ON position.” Should have just walked out right then and there.

  119. MF*

    Does anyone know anything about employment law in CA?

    More specifically: I’m a non-exempt employee in CA. At my current job, I’m sometimes roped into lunch meetings (food is always served but the meeting takes place over the usual lunch hour, 12-1, or sometimes longer, such as 12-2). When this happens, HR has instructed me not to clock out–I can work 8 straight hours (such as 8 AM-4 PM) and then go home. I’m paid for 8 hours, including the time I spent in the meeting.

    Because I’m non-exempt, I know the law says I’m legally entitled to a 30-min lunch break when I work more than 6 hours, so I’m a little unclear as to whether HR’s directive is above the line, so to speak. I know the law also says my employer has to pay me an additional hour of compensation when I’m not given a lunch hour, but it’s unclear if that hour should be above/beyond the 8 hours I’m already being paid for.

    I’m a really junior employee, and these meetings often involve senior management, so while I think I could get out of them occasionally if I *really* wanted to, I don’t really feel like I have the standing to say “no” in most cases.

    1. Seriously?*

      Would you want a break after the meeting and would that be feasible for your job?

      1. MF*

        Possibly, but it would often fall outside the 5-hour rule. (I’m not sure of the exact wording but non-exempt employees have to take lunch no later than 5 or 6 hours after they started their shift.)

    2. A White Dude*

      Is HR’s argument that since it is a working lunch it is a paid break? Do you normally work 8 1/2 hours with a 30-mn unpaid lunch break?

      I don’t think what they are doing is technically right (although I’m not an expert). My understanding of CA labor laws (which has been a while, since I haven’t been non-exempt in years)is that you need that 30 minutes, and it has to occurring during your day (rather than at the end of it). (you are also supposed to get two 15 mn breaks as well) I dont’ think overtime enters into it until you work more than 8 hours.

      Depending on how often this happens, you can either decide to a, suck it up because hey, free food, and you are privvy to meetings you might not otherwise be part of, or b, ask to be able to your 30mn break before or after the lunch meeting, since you are working, phrasing the request as a “wow, i just realized that technically the CA labor laws require I take 30 minute break, and the working lunch can’t be part of that. I’d hate for us to be unwittingly in noncompliance with labor laws!”

      but, like, talk to an expert first to see if they are really out of compliance with you.

      1. MF*

        Yes, I normally work 8 hours with an unpaid 30 min lunch break. (I can take more than 30 min if desired but usually that’s all I take.)

        And yes, I think we’re on the same page–I’ve gotten the sense that what they’re doing is technically not right. My understanding is that I’m also allowed 2 paid 10-min breaks. I try to take those breaks when I can, but again: sometimes I get pulled into 3 or 4 hours of meetings and I’m not really (practically speaking) given any time for breaks.

    3. CAA*

      This sounds like it’s legal in CA as long as you and the employer have a written agreement for the “on-duty” meal period. There are some requirements around this, but if the meetings are mandatory because of your specific job, they probably meet the requirement. This agreement may be in your employee handbook or some similar document that you accepted in the past.

      You don’t get the extra hour of pay unless you:
      1) tell your employer that you no longer agree to the on-duty meal period arrangement
      2) then they prevent you from starting your meal break before 1 PM (assuming an 8 AM start time)
      So if you have a meeting from 12 to 12:45 and then you decided not to bother taking a 30 minute unpaid break that day, they’re in compliance and you don’t get an extra hour of pay.

      1. MF*

        I definitely haven’t signed any documents to this affect, though it’s possible that there’s some language about on-duty meal periods buried in the employee handbook.

        In some cases, I could take a break before the 5-hr mark (such as taking a lunch at 11:00 when I have a meeting from 11:30-1:oo or taking lunch at 12:45 after a 12-12:45). But there have been a handful of times when I’ve been a meeting that’s truly prevented me from taking lunch before the 5-hr mark, and I haven’t received an extra hour of pay outside of pay for the 8 hours I worked that day.

        1. CAA*

          You could talk to your HR people about this, but if you do, then what will probably happen is they will not want to pay out the extra money, so they will mandate that you take a lunch break every day, and they will explain to your manager that she needs to restructure your job so that you are not needed in lunchtime meetings. That may mean that parts of your job get reassigned to someone else, and you would lose out on the visibility that comes from regular meetings with senior management, which can affect your future opportunities in this company. You know your job and your company, so you’ll have to make the judgment about how likely this scenario is and whether it’s worth the risk of saying you don’t consent to this arrangement.

    4. Someone else*

      They can do this, but you should also be paid a meal penalty for not getting the break. If they’re only paying you for 8 hours on those days, that’s incorrect. They’re required to pay you for an extra hour every day you work more than 5 hours and don’t get a 30-minute meal break. You cannot be required to work during any portion of the meal break, so these meetings do not count as you getting a meal break even though you get a meal. So no break=meal penalty. If they paid you for 9 hours on the days you had those meetings, then the scenario you described is above board.

    5. BlindLove*

      If the lunch meeting is mandatory, then you should not be clocking out – your HR is correct. However, you are still supposed to be getting your 30 minute unpaid break.

  120. Lilo*

    Graphic Designers – what do you think the future of the creative industry looks like now that computers have made design tools so much easier and accessible?

    If you think about Mad Men era advertising, the art department was comprised of actual artists who could draw/illustrate with paper and writing tools. Now, you have people like me who can’t physically do more than a rough sketch but can do pretty well with Adobe programs, in the design department.

    So if I lived in the 60s era, no way would I have been able to work in the art department but now I am, which means that the subset of people like me also can. As programs get more sophisticated/easier to use, and design learning becomes more accessible, do you think that will have a big impact on designers?

    1. AnonGD*

      If it’s one thing I’ve learned in the years I’ve been doing this it’s that we’re a long way away from computers being able to actually come up with good, exciting ideas. And for me that’s the core of being a designer so I feel relatively safe and secure. For now, at least haha.

      And more than just technology… there are a lot of designers out there that can do the visual work because technology has made it easier… but they CAN’T do the deep work behind the design itself (Cal Newport’s Deep Work is an influence that helped me see that). Those are the designers that may struggle as technology makes it easier and easier to get the visual part of the work done.

      For the field itself, I kind of see a split happening where designers are either going the UI/UX route or more of a pseudo-illustrator route where you do editorial type work. My career is tracking the pseudo-illustrator way where I’m definitely a graphic designer but it’s been a huge advantage to also have photography and illustration/drawing skills. I’m working on adding motion graphic ability now too for that reason.

    2. kmb*

      I have a visual art background (and am procrastinating on doing some drawings for my MFA thesis exhibition … yikes), and I think drawing is a much more learnable skill than we tend to think it is. If you wanted to (which I’m not suggesting you should, you don’t need to draw, so unless you wanted to I’m not sure why you would learn) you could potentially do something like Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain and learn some skills.

      There are lots of people who have a lot of trouble using graphic design programs, or don’t have the skill (also something that I think yields to practice!) of making aesthetically pleasing things, and can’t do design well now.

      So I think the skillset changes, and obviously the physicality of the work has changed a lot, and there are a lot of time and distance affordances that technology provides that working directly in gauche and paper don’t, but also (right now, anyway) it’s still a set of skills, and so was the old way of doing it.

      But maybe algorithms will start designing everything for us to machine-learned standards of aesthetics, in which case, yeah that would have an impact on the people doing the work.

      1. Lilo*

        The thing that worries me is the existence of Canva and such programs. I have a coworker that has a food related business on the side (just her and a friend) and they’re both working full time, so the business is not profitable enough for them to spend any more than overhead.

        She gushes about how Canva templates are a godsend because it covers all her necessary marketing materials but like… she uses a different template every time so it’s all over the place branding wise. And she’s not the most design or copy literate so formatting is often off and capitalization is wonky. But it’s free!!!

        And now Canva even has the premium business account option where people can import their brand’s colors and typography so they have even more reason not to hire a designer when they can do it all themselves and keep it on brand.

        At least with Fiverr you’re getting what you pay for – $5 and 3 day turnaround time isn’t gonna get you quality. Wix Logo Maker is a whole other beast though…

    3. KayEss*

      Digital tools have already significantly devalued design–everyone with an Adobe CC subscription thinks they’re a serviceable designer, or could be if you’d only sit down and teach them which buttons to click so they didn’t have to pay you. Businesses get logos on Fiverr and think that’s just as good as a professional brand consultation/overhaul. They don’t have the actual design knowledge, and are therefore unable to distinguish good work from trash and pay accordingly. This has all already happened, we are living it.

      Nearly every in-house designer I have worked with has been desperately trying to make the leap to web/coding work, both because it’s very difficult in the digital age to find work as a print-only designer and because the ability to code competent HTML/CSS is a skill that hasn’t yet been totally devalued by people being able to fake it with readily available tools.

      (I personally suspect there’s also some gender stuff going on, with regards to graphic design having shifted from a male-dominated profession in the Mad Men era to a female-dominated one and therefore monetarily devalued, while coding is the new male-dominated frontier of high salaries.)

      1. AnonGD*

        Pardon me for assuming your gender identity but… Girrrlllllll yes on the gender element. I think you’re pretty much spot on with all of this (my job is still like 50% print but I’m in kind of a unique in-house designer role and even *I* know print is definitely still actively dying haha) but seriously, so much yes to that.

        I mean, yeah, technology is a huge part of that but even so… I’m the only female designer in my workplace and I regularly have to correct or redo work that one of my higher paid male counterparts does (you’ll be shocked to hear I’m job searching). And it’s DEFINITELY not just me. So many of my female peers are having similar experiences. I talked above about ideas being such a big part of where design remains valuable, and where creative work remains valuable… yeah, the dark side to that is that I am regularly observing that if a man and woman have the same idea, the man will get the recognition and the raise.

        1. KayEss*

          I was thinking more like salary discrepancies in the different areas of the field, but yeah. I’m job searching right now and noticing that a Web/UX Designer (with the requirement that they be able to code their own designs) gets $50-65k, while a Front-End Developer can command $70-90k. Granted, they’re not the same thing, but I have Suspicions(tm) about why one pays more than the other and they boil down to “developers skew male.”

          I did once work at a small agency as a digital/web designer, and when they did an internal refresh of their own branding… the female owner had a male print-only designer do the design for the agency’s new website. Instead of me, the woman she had hired as a web designer. I called a one-on-one with the second-in-command and asked him why she had made that choice, answer was a big shrug. Later I was laid off because there wasn’t enough work for me to do. YEAH.

      2. Lilo*

        Literally what prompted me to write the originally comment was getting an email this morning from Adobe that Adobe XD would now be included in my subscription. And I had the same thought of everyone who puts down $50/month (instead of the couple hundred dollar investment it used to be) for the suite can think they’re a designer.

        I remember a post on here where the OP was the one in charge of design materials and her coworker asked OP if she would show her how to use the programs so that the coworker could take over designs. You can learn the programs, but that doesn’t mean you know design. You can learn everything about how to work a convection oven, but that doesn’t mean you know how to make good cupcakes

    4. A White Dude*

      As someone design adjacent, I think everyone is a graphic designer these days and it shows. There will always be a market for good design, and it will always show when your cousin who is a wiz at photoshop does your design work.

    5. FD*

      I do some graphic design work for the small business I work for. I have also helped to hire some. Here’s what I have observed from a non-designer:

      1. I think the barriers for entry are dropping in general. We never cared whether our designers had a degree; we cared about a) their portfolio and b) whether they were a pain in the a** to work with. This is both good and bad–it’s good in the sense that many talented designers couldn’t afford a graphic design degree; it’s bad in that it makes it harder to identify good ones.

      2. For a lot of businesses, the quality of the design matters less than whether the person is good to work with. I will have us use a good-enough designer who ANSWERS HIS/HER FRIGGING PHONE CALLS AND GETS THINGS DONE ON TIME instead of those who don’t.

      3. I’m not 100% convinced that your conception of then vs. now is correct. From what I can tell, there’s always been (and still is) some design work that involves illustration and drawing, but a lot of other work that’s more about grids, graphs, and being able to do a layout (e.g. people hired by magazines to put together a nice looking spread). That said, Adobe programs make it much easier and less time consuming; you can have InDesign lay out a three-column grid with a margin between instead of calculating and laying it out by hand.

      4. I believe that good designers always have and always will rise to the top. There’s a huge difference in quality between what someone can do with a logo design site or premade templates and what a real designer can do. But that said, I think that making a living in that field is difficult because there’s way more designers than work. But that’s likely always been true; shows are made featuring designers that got hired, not the many others who failed at it.

    6. betty (the other betty)*

      I am struggling to write this comment. I’m a self-taught graphic designer who got into the business just a computers were becoming important for design and layout. I like the mix of creative and technology.

      Some companies and people have the mindset that “the computer does the work” and “anyone can be a designer.” That tends to work until they realize that the software can be tricky to learn and that it’s not always easy to make layouts that:
      • Look good
      • Fit company branding
      • Communicate the right message to the right people
      • Meet any legal requirements (such as on food packaging)
      • Meets technical specifications so layouts print well or work well on the web.

      There will always be people who claim to be designers but who don’t know the difference between a raster image and a vector image (hint, one is better for logos), just as there will always be people in every industry who aren’t great at what they do. The challenge is explaining to clients why it takes more than software to make a good designer.

      In addition to my day-to-day design work, I also teach some of the Adobe software to groups and individuals. About 50% of my clients learn enough to realize that doing the work of a graphic designer is not a good use of their time, and they end up hiring me (or someone else) to do the work for them. This echoes my experience with my big-company clients: it makes more sense for my clients to do the work they are good at and hire me to do the design work that I’m good at.

      The question was: As programs get more sophisticated/easier to use, and design learning becomes more accessible, do you think that will have a big impact on designers?

      Obviously there are lots of places like 99 Designs or Fivrr that offer low end design services. So in some cases, design may be devalued and pay for designers may go down. Do I think it’s a big impact? Yes, probably, at entry level. I bet there’s also high turnover for entry level design positions, as less-than-qualified people get jobs that they don’t have the ability to grow into. Not so much for skilled designers who can prove to potential clients and employers that the work they do offers value to a company, by showing a portfolio of excellent work and an ability to keep up with important advancements in technology.

  121. Pine cones huddle*

    I just started a new job this week. During the acceptance and negotiation process, I told my new boss I would need to be about a Monday and Friday because we were going on a mini vacation that weekend. She acknowledged and said this would not be a problem.

    Well, here we are and I just started getting calendar invites and meeting schedules. There is a really important annual planning meeting the weekend I will be out of town. I am really disappointed because I don’t want to miss this meeting, but I can’t change my vacation. I’m sure it has been on the calendar for nearly a year. I am so torn and frankly a little worried about reminding her. (She’s a bit of a tiger mom, and I can see some of this reflected in how she runs the workplace. )

  122. Nervous accountant*

    Idk if this is a work or non work thread cz I’m crylaughing thinking about this.

    Just realized my mom is very similar to my boss.

    Maybe this is more of a skip to therapy thing rather than either one.

    1. AnonGD*

      In a similar vein, I was talking with a friend of mine that I’ve recently become very close to, seemingly out of nowhere. She just confided in me all these details about her toxic boss and I was just like DO WE HAVE THE SAME BOSS?! Funny how that kind of thing brings people together?

  123. HELP*

    HELP.

    I have second round interview online today, and my manager scheduled a meeting online that would end RIGHT at my interview time. I’d ideally like 10-15 to prep/final touches.

    Any advice?

    1. kmb*

      Do you have any ability to get the meeting to end early? Or could you propose another time for the meeting if it’s not a ton of people?

      1. HELP*

        I don’t think I could reschedule, but I could probably find a way to leave early if I knew what right excuse to use. Like – I’m not feeling well? Or I have a call to jump on?

    2. Pine cones huddle*

      Contact your interview and ask to bump it back. Explain you’ve had a work meeting and don’t want to be late to your interview if it runs late.

  124. Timing a Resignation*

    I’ve decided to pursue a PhD in the fall, and will be leaving my job to do so (I had the job as a full time job for 3 years, and for the past 2 years I went to part time – 29 hours / wk – in the same role to do my MFA, which I negotiated with my employer). Since January, working at my job has gotten really bad (some things are concrete and complicated, some things are a bit more atmospheric and senior management style related. Many other staff have the feeling that our workplace has fallen off a cliff in the last 5 months, and are looking for other opportunities, especially on my team). So that made the decision to go on to do the PhD a lot easier, and I’ve accepted my spot in my program and know I will be leaving by the end of the summer.

    However, I haven’t given my notice yet, because one of the specific and concrete things is a long mediation process that I have a lot of feedback about, but don’t feel like I can / should provide until the entire process is done because the mediator told me not to talk to my manager about it (there are two mediation processes going on, one was really painful for me, and that one just wrapped up, but a second process ends on June 7th). My current plan is to let the other mediation process wrap up, provide my feedback, and if it’s taken well (IE, I feel like they listen to and accept my feedback, I’m not expecting they would take any other specific action on the incident the mediation was about) I’ll provide ~6 weeks of notice and be done at the end of July, and if I feel like they don’t take my feedback seriously, care, etc, then I’ll give two weeks of notice so I don’t have to stick around.

    I feel bad not telling my manager when I’ve already made this decision, but I feel like the mediation process is tying my hands in terms of my decision about timing this. Does anyone have a perspective on whether I should be doing anything else?

    1. Reba*

      I think you’re fine here.

      The multiple mediations doesn’t make me feel like your workplace is healthy and balanced.

      Good luck with your program!

      1. Timing a Resignation*

        My workplace is going through some tough times, yeah.
        Thanks for your input, I appreciate it!

  125. Sky Bison*

    I’m looking for a little guidance on an issue. I’m what’s called a perms-contractor. Similar to the letter we had earlier this week I work full-time in an office and I’m contracted to work exclusively for them. I’m not in the US so our contractor laws are different here but basically I work a six month-12 month contract that almost always gets renewed unless I suck or the company sees a major shift. I’m an employee except I get a different tax form and I don’t get “benefits” (less of an issue where I live re: healthcare, but still annoying). But it’s kind of “not done” to leave within the first six months of your contract. You can, but you’re risking a bad reputation. Exceptions are made for substantially different roles such as a permanent position, and a career changer (think working at Google levels).

    In the first six months at my current placement a recruiter contacted me about a role. I normally fob them off but this role looked really unique and career changing so I decided to go for an interview. It was not substantially different, it was exactly the role I’m doing now, just at a different company. But the pay was significantly higher (to the tune of an extra 20k a year). I interview very well and they gave me an offer before our first interview was even finished. They were very pushy about how much they wanted me to work for them, how they saw my career evolving and how they needed an answer ASAP. I said no because I had an obligation to my current company and I didn’t feel the extra pay would be worth the bad reputation and I actually do like my current office.

    They then upped the offer – permanent role with them. This is unheard of where I am. You just don’t get permanent roles without going temp to perm in my field unless you have a crapload more experience then I have (I have 3 years, people usually only offer this to folks with 10 years under their belt) along with just…an insane benefits package. I said this I would be interested in and if they would send me over a full offer package I’d look it over and get back to them. This was all but a done deal. I was asked to wait until after Easter. So I waited. By the following Thursday, I emailed my recruiter who said there’d been a delay and he’d get back in touch at the end of the month with the paperwork. No rush on my part, I’m still in my original contract. End of the month came and went, I emailed, he responded saying he’d reached out to the company and hadn’t heard back, he was going to try again and get back to me. Then another week went by, I emailed again. No response this time. Another week goes by and he emails me about a totally different permanent role. I said I might be interested if he can send me over the job details. No response to this email. Then this week I ping him again to see if he’s got either role on the table for me.

    My contract at my current office comes up first week in June. I need to know like…asap what the hell is happening so I can tell them if I’m going to resign. I am fine to resign, like I said I like where I work, but I’d really like to know what the hecking heck happened there and if I should just drop this and move on.

    1. Seriously?*

      Can you send him an e-mail letting him know that you need an official offer by X date or will be renewing your contract and unavailable for 6 months? They have been dragging this out for too long to not renew your contract based on what they told you before. Being very pushy and then MIA sounds like a red flag.

      1. Sky Bison*

        Thanks for your reply, yeah it sounds like a red flag to me too. Part of my hesitation in accepting the original offer was that I don’t respond well when people are pushy and if this was going to be a trend I didn’t want to work there.

        I think I may have jumbled stuff a bit, my current boss will renew my contract. Naturally I have not been talking about this with him as I didn’t have an actual offer signed. I know I should let this go, but this was such a weird experience and if it had worked out it would have been great for my career. I think I’m just bummed.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Have you been able to ask questions about the job, work environment, etc to make sure you really want this new job?

  126. Nervs*

    Dreaded follow up question:

    I had a interview 3 weeks ago, I followed up 1 week ago by email using the script here. In the interview she told me she gets 1000s of emails a week so she never sees them. I have a potential job offer but this is my first choice Is it appropriate to follow up by phone? Or just leave it alone?

    2. AliceW*

      I don’t think it would hurt to follow-up by phone. Just a short phone call/message to check in and see if the position has been filled yet.

    4. I've done this!*

      I wouldn’t call yet, but if you actually have a job offer in hand it’s totally fine to call up and let them know a) that you have another offer and b) that they are your first choice and c) that you need to hear back from them by X date. I actually did this for my first job out of college – got an offer to my second choice place, called up my first choice and they called back the next day with an offer.

  127. MBA ?!*

    Another MBA question for you folks. Thanks so much in advance for any help.

    I’m currently working freelance and really enjoy it. I have almost full time hours on one project, where I am a project manger/product manager for a digital health group at a large hospital organization. I have a couple of smaller projects as well, where I do digital content (editing, social media, etc).

    I’m about 7 years out of school (creative writing major) and have bopped around a little bit- started as a sous chef, became an executive assistant at a finance firm, then EA at a digital health startup…my role progressed there to include project management and operations stuff, and when the startup folded, that led to my current freelance position. I really love the flexibility of my freelance work, and I like having one foot in tech and the other foot in my first love, writing/content. I like that I’m my own boss and can pick and choose what to work on by what interests me and what will allow me to learn.

    However, I never had formal training in ANYthing except writing poetry. :D I was considering an MBA and got accepted (state school, well regarded, has a tech+business focus). I would be attending part-time in the evening, continuing my current work during the day. My question is- does it make sense to go, if I plan to continue on the freelance path? What are the benefits of it, beyond the networking?

    I don’t think I want to go work at a Fortune 500 company, or another company at all. I’ve always learned a lot on the job, so I am hesitant to spend the $$ on school. Also I find many of my colleagues have the tech/startup attitude that MBAs and PhDs are…pretty useless (no offense to those who have them!). I’m just not sure what makes sense for me, and in talking to current students/admissions team/etc., I haven’t heard anything that’s convincing for someone on a path like mine.

    1. Oxford Coma*

      An MBA doesn’t match your path very well, IMO. If you’re determined to pursue grad school, I’d think a degree in IS, IT, or technical writing would be a better fit.

    2. MissGirl*

      I have an MBA. It’s valuable depending on how you use it. How do you intend to use it? There’s cheaper ways to network.

  128. Question Re: Accommodations Post Cancer*

    My husband is having some issues with using up all his sick days at work. He is a two time cancer survivor. The first time he had stage IV thyroid cancer, then he had stage IV colon cancer. He had his thyroid removed and a bi-lateral colon resection as a result. In addition, he also suffered a Pulmonary Embolism, which was a precursor to the colon cancer before we knew he had colon cancer.

    Because of all of this, its important that he have regular follow up appointments with his oncologist, endocrinologist, and pulmonologist. We are only 5 months into the year and he has already used all of his sick time. Most of which was to attend doctors appointments. They’ve told him that if he misses any more he will be put on a 90 day probationary period and then if he misses another he will be fired. Obviously, that means he cant go to any more doctors appointments or get sick for the next 7 months without getting fired, which is simply not possible.

    In addition, he has some understandable bathroom issues and is finding that he is going over the allotted time they are allowed to leave their desk for bathroom breaks. He works in tech support and is on the phone all day. They are allowed to leave their desks for 2 minutes at a time. They are not super strict about it, but there have been comments that he spends too much time in the bathroom and now they think he is away from his desk too much. I think they think he is just being lazy and not hurrying back because he doesn’t want to work, but that is not the case.

    My question, is if anyone can offer some advice as to how he can get some accommodations for his medical needs? He needs to be able to go to the bathroom when needed and have the flexibility to be in there for however long he needs. He also needs to be able to attend doctors appointments without risking his job. Is this something that FMLA would cover? How does he go about being protected?

    1. Murphy*

      1. I’m sorry you’re both going through all that.
      2. His company sounds like a load of jerks.
      2b. 2 minutes is a stupid short amount of time. I can understand the need for coverage but…even “normal” bathroom visits can take longer than that.
      3. His absences should most definitely be covered under FMLA. I would think he’d fall under ADA as well in terms of getting special accommodations to use the bathroom. He should take this to HR.

      1. Hlyssande*

        Yes, it should absolutely be covered under FMLA if the company is big enough. A former coworker of mine had her weekly rheumatologist/therapy/treatment appointments covered without issue.

        1. Brownie*

          Exactly. Until last June I had this idea that FMLA was only for days/weeks/months of absence, then I had to go on it for a PE and discovered that intermittent FMLA is a thing! I used it to cover my appointments with doctors and even to leave early some days if I overworked myself during the recovery period.

          On the bathroom side of things I’d be tempted to ask the people commenting about how long it is if they’d like to come in and supervise and, when they refuse, ask if they’d like a graphic description of what a colon resection does and if the company will be paying for adult diapers instead of allowing him adult bathroom privileges. But I’m bitter and not above being graphic to prove a point to otherwise oblivious people, so I don’t recommend doing that unless there’s no other options left.

          1. Question Re: Accommodations Post Cancer*

            I’m laughing at your bathroom description. I am not sure who is complaining. I don’t feel like it is his coworkers but more the management. They can see when they are actively on calls and how long they are in “away” status. They review all of this and then they are regularly penalized for going out of the designated timeframes. They get in trouble for being on a call too long but also get in trouble if they don’t resolve the problem on the first call. It makes no sense.

        2. Question Re: Accommodations Post Cancer*

          Thank you both. I have FMLA intermittent time, but its for a chronic illness and I see one doctor for it. I am not sure how it works when there are multiple doctors involved. I guess he can ask HR about that.

          Do either of you happen to know if he is in anyway protected already? He has not done anything official, but he has certainly mentioned that he is a cancer survivor and that he is going to doctors appointments for these reasons.

          Last year he had an episode where his lungs started bleeding (a tear from a bad cough) due to the blood thinners he was on. So you can imagine how important it is for him to make his doctors appointments. They know this happened and that he still sees a pulmonologist.

          1. fposte*

            TBH, the employer should have brought up FMLA already–it’s on them to do so, and it doesn’t give me a good feeling that they haven’t. (He’s eligible, right? Worked at least 1250 hours for them in the previous year, 50 employees within a 75-mile radius?)

            The ADA is also relevant here, and the EEOC has specific cancer-related guidance that I’ll link in a followup post. That’s for him to bring up and request accommodations for, and it sounds like it’s time for him to do that.

            2. Question Re: Accommodations Post Cancer*

              Yes, he’s eligible. He works fool time, has been there a couple of years, and they are a very large company. Thank you for the link. I’m going to look it over for him.

          2. WellRed*

            Well, he needs to ask for accommodations, both for the bathroom and the appts but it doesn’t sound like this place will be a good place for him (Did I read correctly that it’s a fairly new job for him?).

            1. Question Re: Accommodations Post Cancer*

              He’s been there a couple of years. All in all the company is a good company to work for, but the way they handle their tech support employees leaves A LOT to be desired. He wants to find a new job but there are not a ton of those types in this area.

    2. Bea*

      I’m glad you got the appropriate info about FLMA and would also consult a lawyer at this time since they’re threatening his job security. What a bunch of jerks (they’re even more than jerks but I’ll keep it at that at risk of just going off on a tirade over exactly what these people are).

      Two minutes away from your desk…is he in a call center, w.t.f kind of malarkey is that. I hope nobody accidentally eats something that disagrees with their stomachs during the day. I don’t have a gallbladder any more, sometimes I just have to run and it takes what it takes.

  129. Jail Bird*

    How do I explain an arrest when job hunting?

    I stayed in an abusive relationship, despite everyone telling me to leave. And it did not end well. One night I called the cops on him one night when he was drunk, angry and would not let me leave his apartment. It turned into a physical fight because I couldn’t get out. I managed to lock myself in the bathroom and call the cops. When they arrived, my ex was the first person to talk to the police, and said that I had gone crazy on him (which is not true). I still don’t understand why I was arrested, when I was the one to call for help and was just trying to get out. I am incredibly confused and embarrassed about the situation. I am not an abusive person and have a reputation as a kind, generous, and honest person.

    I am in the middle of getting this dismissed but it’s a process. I’ve never been in any kind of trouble before and have no plans to ever be in this situation again. I was arrested for a misdemeanor domestic battery, charged with a misdemeanor disturbing the peace and all charges will be dismissed after a year of good behavior. I’m still about six months to a year from getting it all cleared up. In the mean time, I am hunting for part time jobs to help me cover the legal expenses. What do I tell employers? How do I tell them and at what point in the interview process do I disclose this?

    On a side not to any woman or man who is in an abusive relationship now, let my story be a lesson.
    GET OUT NOW. You do not want to end up in the situation that I’m in now. Don’t wait. Don’t make excuses. Don’t let money be a factor in not leaving. GET OUT.

    1. CAA*

      Don’t bring it up. There’s no reason to mention it at all unless they ask, and there are some states where it’s not even legal for them to ask.

      1. Jail Bird*

        I was offered a part-time event coordinator job an hour ago. Sooo, yay! I don’t have to worry about job searching for now. But I’m still curious about the best way to handle this in the future.

        I live in Idaho and I know it will come up in a background check here. It also will never be completely removed from my record even when it is dismissed (Idaho state laws are great… *rolls eyes*).

        I’m worried that not disclosing the arrest until the background check in the hiring process will ruin my chances at getting a job. It feels dishonest to not disclose it sooner in the interview/ hiring process.

        1. whistle*

          “It also will never be completely removed from my record even when it is dismissed” I’m glad to hear you’ve been advised correctly on this. Even expungements don’t really remove things from all records – the info is still accessible under the right kind of check. And I don’t think Idaho is unique in this regard. I don’t agree with this system, myself, but it’s important that you are aware of this fact.

          “It feels dishonest to not disclose it sooner in the interview/ hiring process.” I can see why it feels that way, but I don’t think you should look at it that way. If they don’t ask, how can it be dishonest to not mention something? Especially in your specific situation where an ultimate dismissal is likely. If you feel like you’re really far in the process before it comes up, and then, say, someone asks about your background, you can say “Oh, I hadn’t thought of this before, but since you mention it, I wonder if I should give you a heads up that I’m awaiting the dismissal of a misdemeanor charge…”

          Congrats on the new position!!

        2. CAA*

          Congrats on the new job! For the future, I think your best option is still not to bring it up, but not to lie about it if asked.

      2. whistle*

        IANAL, but I really don’t think this is correct. Employers absolutely can and do ask about criminal background and run their own checks to verify this information. I hire in all 50 states, and we run background checks for every employee and ask about criminal background.

        1. CAA*

          Yes, it’s illegal to ask about arrests or convictions before you make a job offer in California. You can ask about convictions and pending trials after that, but you can only withdraw the offer if the offense is relevant to the job being offered.

        2. Natalie*

          Some states prohibit considering arrests that don’t lead to convictions, that may be what CAA is referring to. Additionally, a number of states have “ban the box” laws that require the employer to wait to ask about criminal history until a conditional employment offer is made

    2. whistle*

      I’m assuming this means that your criminal background check would show the misdemeanor charges? Would they show “guilty” or “pending” or something else as the verdict? My answer is based on the assumption that these changes would show up and would show up in a way that does not simply say “dismissed”. If this is not the case, please clarify, JB!

      You should disclose at the point where they ask a question such that not disclosing would be a lie (e.g. Is there any criminal activity in your background?) or at the point where they indicate they are running a background check (or have you fill out forms to run a background check).

      If they don’t run background checks and don’t ask the questions, you don’t need to disclose.

      As for how to disclose, I’d say this: “I have a misdemeanor charge that I am working on getting dismissed. I was involved in a domestic altercation. I feel I was the victim and not the perpetrator of this altercation, and that I therefore have solid grounds for the dismissal. I am working with my lawyer on this. My domestic situation has since changed, and do not believe this is something that will happen again in the future.” (Or of course something a bit more human and bit less formal!) Be prepared to share legal documents if they ask.

      If they run a background check, and you don’t disclose, this will not look good for you.

      Good luck, JB! You’ll find something!

      1. Jail Bird*

        This is great advice! Thank you.

        I’m not sure if it says dismissal pending or if it states that I’ve been charged guilty. I took a plea deal because going to trial was too expensive. I do not have fifteen grand sitting around for my defense. Lol. Two grand and a plea deal seemed more manageable. So, I think it probably states guilty. However, it will have be dismissed by next December. It’s just taking some time.

        Regardless, this is great advice. Thank you!

  130. Rachel Zane*

    I did a dumb thing, and I got burned :-(

    I’m the most junior person in the office and usually coordinate birthday gifts (we’re a very small office). Each person this year has gotten $50, mostly because one person usually contributes at least $20. This week, it was her birthday – I hadn’t gotten contributions from a few people, but assumed they’d chip in because they have before. I was petrified to remind people to chip in because I know that’s Very Bad. I thought it would be hurtful to give this person less than half of what she knows every other person had received, so I split the difference and bought a $40 card despite only receiving $20 from folks.

    Still haven’t gotten contributions from anybody else :-( The worst part? They’re all attorneys and I’m an administrative assistant – they definitely make at least twice as much as me. Lesson learned!

      1. WellRed*

        Because it’s annoying to be pestered to chip in cash. Why are you giving coworkers birthday gifts?

    2. Koala dreams*

      Actually, as a forgetful person, I think it would be kind of you remind them if you know they want to be in / know them to participate. If they are not forgetful, just cheap, then, yeah.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Can you stop coordinating this exchange of cash as a birthday gift? I.e. just give a card that everyone signs. And the company pays for the card.

  131. LibrarianJ*

    TL;DR: How do you factor your skill (or lack thereof) as a manager factor into references?

    I manage a group of student workers, one of whom has just asked me to be a reference for him. His performance this year has been OK, but with some issues, and I would definitely find it hard to gush about him, though he’s done nothing egregiously wrong — minor things like not following call-out instructions or calling out sick suspiciously frequently. He’s not incompetent — he just sometimes took an overly-casual approach to the job, like most students here do with work-study positions.

    My concern is that I’m very new to management, and due in part to the culture in my department (which tends to favor going easy on student workers and not bothering to discipline students who are graduating imminently anyway — and I’m often overruled if I try to come down hard) and in part to my own inexperience, I feel like I didn’t do a lot to better direct his performance (i.e., sitting down and having those “Going forward, I need you to do X, can I count on that?” sort of conversations Alison is always scripting!) I gave some feedback in e-mail, but it was limited. I’m really conflicted about how much I can hold him accountable for behaviors I failed to correct as far as references are concerned. The position in question is in my field, so it would make sense for him to approach me for a reference, but I really don’t know what to tell him. I don’t want to penalize him for my failings as a new manager.

    1. AliceW*

      I’ve agreed to be a reference for employees who were just average. I would just focus on what the employee did well, and indicate he/she was competent and did satisfactory work but that they were not an outperformer. Even if you weren’t the best manager and could have coached him better, he sounds like an adequate worker- not horrible and not excellent. Telling the truth is not penalizing him.

  132. Hlyssande*

    While I understand the business need for my team to move cubes, I am extremely displeased about this morning’s announcement for several reasons.

    1. We were told today. We move on Monday.
    2. We lose the fantastic view of a lake and a pond and all the wildlife associated to them (bald eagles! coyotes! geese and ducks!) because the current cubes are right against the windows and the new ones are in the middle of the room.
    3. We’re moving into the collections area, which is much more noisy – and I frequently give training sessions via webex, so that will be fun.
    4. No idea which of the empty cubes I’ll be moving to because the boss isn’t here, so I can’t start moving stuff today – I’d totally get most of it out of the way this afternoon if I could.
    5. If I get stuck on the end cube in the higher traffic location it’s going to send my anxiety through the roof – I already hate having people behind me as it is, and having my back to every person who walks into the room would be super unpleasant.

    GRUMP. It’s Friday and payday, but my mood has been ruined.

    2. kmb*

      Do you work in a museum? I work in a museum (not one with a collection though) and I also had a recent surprise desk move that made my team really frustrated and had to be executed quickly (not next business day, we were told Wednesday and had to be moved by EOD Friday, moved to EOD whenever your week ends because our team mostly has Tue-Sat or Sun-Thu schedules … which obviously our manager knew when she told us … ).

      Anyway, sorry you are losing your great cubespot, I just wanted to commiserate :(.

      1. Hlyssande*

        No, it’s corporate cubeworld all up in here.

        Thankfully the cubes we’re moving to are already vacant, so my coworkers and I have been ferrying things over this afternoon and it doesn’t all have to be done in the morning on Monday. That way we won’t be holding up the people who are moving into our cubes, and the people who are moving into their cubes.

        I’m really going to miss seeing the bald eagles.

    3. Oxford Coma*

      I feel this so hard. I was moved to an end cube with my back to two conferences rooms, two director-level offices, and a staircase. Basically it’s at the edge of a hub that connects five hallways. I’m as jumpy as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

      1. Hlyssande*

        Ugh, that’s so frustrating. I used to sit (two moves prior) with my back to two manager offices and the conference room where the division Prez and other VIPs do the quarterly webcast. People waiting for the rooms or the managers would always stand half in my cube to chat, while I was trying to work.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      ToxicOldJob used to have us move cubes on a whim with zero warning. And they didn’t provide boxes or anything, so you basically had to walk back and forth 800 times to carry all of your things.

      1. Hlyssande*

        Ew.

        They’ve provided boxes before, and sometimes carts. Since the move technically isn’t until Monday but the new cubes we’re moving to are vacant, one of my coworkers and I have been ferrying things over in small batches. It gets me away from looking at spreadsheets on a Friday afternoon.

    5. Lil Fidget*

      Yeah this is one of those things workers are supposed to be cool about, since your cube is theoretically NBD as far as the people on the top are concerned, but of course it has a big impact on your minute-to-minute experience at work. Sympathies – somebody who hasn’t seen a window in six years. I don’t ever know what the weather is like until I get to the front door on my way out :(

      (Our windows are all taken up by senior executive offices, they keep their doors closed, our cubes are in a dark pit in the middle of the building).

      1. Hlyssande*

        The nice thing about this office in general is that only the super VIPs have window offices – all the other managers are in internal offices and the grunts actually get natural light. The current cubes are literally right up against the windows with a good green view, so I’ll be losing the direct window access.

        I get it, but I’m hella grumpy about it.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          I’ve heard rumors ours was designed that way (cubes around the outside, offices in the middle) but the higher ups revolved and demanded the office views!

          1. Hlyssande*

            Dang, that sucks. Our old building was a super industrial monstrosity from like the 50’s so there were only tiny windows in some of the manager offices and that was it. The new place is all LEED-y and green-focused so we can at least stand up and look out.

            I’m gonna miss seeing the bald eagles all the time. :(

    6. WellRed*

      We moved recently to the other side of the office, I lost my cube and window. I now am the first person people see so I am always signing for packages (soooooo not my job). We made the best of the new space and I have decided to cheerfully sign for packages. But, I totally sympathize. At least we were given more warning.

      1. Hlyssande*

        Window noooo. :(

        I’m glad we have restricted access to the area and all packages get delivered to the dedicated receptionist (visitors have to sign in with her to get temp badges too). Otherwise I’d probably get that.

    7. Hlyssande*

      Update, I got the cube I don’t want, alas. I’ll manage, but I am v. grumpy. We’ll see if it gives me anxiety issues. I’m pretty sure it will, but at least the location isn’t right outside the conference rooms where bigwigs stand half in people’s cubes to talk while they wait.

      The desks in the main section of the big room aren’t actually cubes, they’re hexagonal in a sort of honeycomb-like formation of four rows (seven cubes + big supervisor cube). In the first row, the ‘short’ side faces the entry of the area, but in the second row where I’ll be, it’s the long side and is one of the first places your gaze falls when you enter.
      I’m sure my messiness will make a great impression on everyone who visits! :D :D :D

      On the plus side, they accidentally made me a large green tea cooler at coffee shop instead of a medium on my way back from lunch. On dang.

      1. Peal*

        Any chance a less anxious/more social coworker wants that cube? Some people love being right in the middle of things and knowing who all is coming and going, if you have a teammate like that who’s willing to switch, would the higher ups let you do it?

        1. Hlyssande*

          I’m not sure it’s possible. I’ll see what happens and bring it up with the boss if I need to. She’d probably let me switch if I desperately needed to.

          1. ..Kat..*

            Bring it up ASAP! Once people are settled in, you are more likely to be told no.

  133. beanie beans*

    I have a phone interview in a couple of hours with a small company (25 people), so the interview is with the company owner. This is a first for me and I’m curious if anyone has any suggested questions I could ask that might be different than if you were just interviewing with the Hiring Manager.

    So far I have a question about his leadership style. I could ask about his vision for the company? Would it be weird to ask what people like about working for him/for his company?

    1. Unfashionable*

      I’ve only ever worked at small companies so here are a few things I would want to find out about if I was looking for a new job (in the US)

      – Is the company growing, does it want to? If no, why not. If yes, what are the growing pains.
      – What’s the owners’ exit plan? Stay involved until he’s senile, sell out for $$$$$, exit gracefully, etc. Entrepreneurs don’t usually do well once the start up makes the transition to small company so this one is extra important if the company’s not very old.
      – Diversity? Is there an attempt for the employees to reflect the community or is it a bunch of guys like owner?
      – Work hours. Stay until 10pm to finish the thing? Kick off early because it’s sunny? Never use vacation because everyone’s too busy to cover for you? Does the owner do one thing and expect something different from employees? Do only people with children get scheduling flexibility?
      – Other duties. With a small company there will be some. Does everyone wear 5 hats or just 2. Is it pitch in and help as needed or that’s not my job. Do you need to be self directed and take initiative? Is the job description clearly defined? Is who you report to clearly defined?
      – How do they measure success for the company?
      – How do they measure success and give feedback for an employee? Is there a formal policy? What’s the career trajectory for someone in this role?
      – Benefits, esp non monetary. Most small group health insurance plans are expensive and they suck, what does company offer to make up for it?
      – How does communication work in the company? Lots of meetings? CC the whole company and reply all for everything? Corner you in the hallway? Is it an area for improvement? (I would hesitate to work anywhere that didn’t say yes) How are they trying to improve? How do they resolve disagreements and conflicts between employees?
      – How would owner describe company culture? Are they “one big happy family”?
      – Is there free coffee? This sounds stupid but it’s my canary in the coal mine. Some reasons for no free coffee at small US companies include 1) less than three coffee drinker employees 2) THIS IS WHY WE CAN’T HAVE NICE THINGS 3) The company is not financially stable 4) You are working for Ebeneezer Scrooge

      1. kmb*

        Haha, I’m not in the US, and not at a particularly small org, but over Christmas they took away the free coffee as it was expensive and I think we signed an exclusive agreement with a very expensive local roaster. People were mad, and it still comes up sometimes.

  134. designbot*

    so guys, my company is reorganizing, and in what I think is a genuine effort to be inclusive and take input, they have published all job/role descriptions and are asking us to pick our own titles. However, there is no universe in which the leadership team doesn’t already think they know what applies to whom here; they *just aren’t saying* and it’s driving me a little crazy. People just keep saying to be optimistic, don’t assume the worst, etc. but I’d just like to not be assuming anything at all. This aligns with our yearly reviews, however our reviews didn’t get any more time allotted to them than normal so there was no time to cover this at all. Anytime I try to ask questions I’m told to ‘be optimistic’ but not given any actual further information. This feels like a game that I am particularly bad at playing—I’m a person who can very quickly see that something is up or someone is not being straightforward with me, but is ironically very very slow to parse the reasons behind it and the sort of unspoken rules of a workplace. Has anyone here been through anything like this? How’d you get through?

    1. kmb*

      It’s not super similar, but my org is also doing some weird stuff that I think might be some sort of Larger Plan. It’s not a game or like pick your title or anything like that, it’s been some weird desk moves and layoffs, and an overall change in the tone, and then some sort of more general weirdness / change of atmosphere in the past few months (we think maybe they are trying to get us not to be friends … ).

      I am not through it, and I don’t know how much I can help, but here’s what I’m trying:

      – does anyone else feel the way you do? Can you kind of plan a limited amount of time to talk about or process it on a somewhat regular basis, and then try to watch it like some sort of strange social experiment?
      – since it doesn’t seem like you are super jazzed about trying to stay optimistic about it, can you instead try to stay detached from it? Maybe make some kind of plan for what you’ll do if it goes bad or even if you just get too aggravated (some people tell me to like play out the worst case scenario in my mind, which just makes me experience all the emotions of a worst case scenario happening, so if you are prone to that, I would not work out in detail a specific case for worst case scenario, but more “if this turns out ludicrous, I know I can find another job in X industry, so I’ll start looking and applying just to feel like I have options”). Acknowledge that you think there’s a weird strategy to all of this, and be conscious that you are bothered about being so clearly “managed” in a manipulative way instead of having them just be straight with what outcomes they actually want so people could discuss them.
      – can you ask your manager about it? Maybe not in a “why are you guys manipulating us” but in a “hey, this process seems odd to me, could you tell me more about why we’re going this way?” you may not get a satisfying answer (I haven’t) but you will have tried anyway. You could also run your way of dealing with it past your manager if you feel safe doing so (“I’m planning on picking this, heads up”) so you can have a conversation before it’s official if you were like going to make an audacious choice and that’s not the point or something.

      I hope they were just trying to like … make your titles fun, or give people agency in their roles, or something, and not sort of trying to like bring out people’s secret understanding of your work hierarchy or something. Not that not telling you is a good idea if they did have a reasonable reason.

    2. CAA*

      If you want to have a job there, you have to play one round of their game, even if you don’t know all the rules and they don’t want to tell you. Otherwise you end up looking like the person who doesn’t handle change well and might not fit into the new org.

      First thing to ask yourself is, when they say “pick your own title”, do they mean “tell us which job description most accurately describes the job you do today” or “tell us which job description most accurately describes the job you wish you had”? Since they’re saying “be optimistic”, I’d take them at their word and go with the second one. Read the job descriptions they posted and then give them whatever the title is on the one you like best. Then if you can, put it out of your mind and wait to see what happens. Sure you might end up in your same position or in some completely different position where they think you fit better; but you might also get the job you really want, so what have you got to lose by answering their question?

      1. designbot*

        They definitely mean the job you want, but in a way that’s realistic in the present or near future based on what you do. The issue I’m having is that some of the partners clearly have some assumptions about how the old structure of hierarchy translates into the new, and other partners are encouraging us to throw that out the window, and the partners who I currently report to for lack of better word are include both types. Also in my reviews is one guy who I’m very likely going to be asking for the same title as and I expect him to be offended (he thinks a lot of himself). Sigh.

  135. gonnaBeAnonToday*

    Does anyone have tips for working with someone whose concentration is broken easily? We work in different offices, but e-mails can make him lose focus, so we communicate through a shared file so he can check that when he has time. I want this to work, and I’m trying to think of anything else I should do or avoid doing to help him keep focus. I don’t call, e-mail, or IM to him. Also, if you have an issue like this, can you explain it a bit more from your perspective? I’d like to understand.

    1. Susan the BA*

      Do you work together often enough that setting up a weekly meeting/call would be helpful? That way you could save up a bunch of questions and notes rather than sending them piecemeal.

      Also, are you this person’s manager? If not I would argue that it’s not your job to “help him keep focus”. You just do the best you can (although it’s good to be willing to make reasonable accommodations – which it sounds like you’re totally doing! I can’t imagine having someone I had to keep from calling, emailing, AND messaging) and if his focus issues are impacting your work, then you handle it like any other issue – ‘I’m not able to move forward in Project Llama because Fergus doesn’t reply to me in a timely fashion’. Then his manager can decide whether to make this a performance issue, to accommodate Fergus by switching him to a project/role/environment where becoming distracted by receiving an email won’t be a big deal.

      1. gonnaBeAnonToday*

        It’s not really on me to manage. Sometimes I need his help, and I want to be thoughtful about this.

    3. Lindsay J*

      Honestly, you’re already doing more than I would.

      (And this is coming from someone who has ADHD so I do have concentration and other executive function problems.)

      If emails make him lose focus, he can turn off alerts and only check it at set times. Or set up rules so only high priority emails go through and other stuff goes to a secondary inbox. If phone calls are disturbing, he can turn the phone ringer off and let voicemail pick it up.

      You’re doing way too much of the emotional (and actual) labor over this.

      If you’re getting timely responses from him with the shared file and it works for you, that’s cool.

      But I certainly wouldn’t worry about what more you could be doing.

      And if you’re not getting timely responses from him and it’s effecting your work, I would email, I would call, and I would get his and your boss involved with this.

  136. Susan the BA*

    A friend recently told me a story that happened about 5 years ago. Friend was on her lunch break and told a coworker (both women) in front of some other staff that she couldn’t go to a happy hour because she was going bra shopping after work. Friend was then called into the director’s office and told by the director (also a woman) that it was completely unacceptable and unprofessional to say the word “bra” in an office. Director hasn’t worked there for several years now and Friend is over it but I was still in a fit of rage on behalf of friend and all bra-wearers everywhere for a few hours and had to take a walk to calm myself down.

    1. MuseumChick*

      Being a fellow bra wearer here is my opinion.

      I think YMMV on this depending on the culture of your office. Generally speaking, I don’t want to hear about (or see of that matter) my co-workers undergarments. The rub here for me is, would the boss have called a male worker into her office for discussing going to shop for some tighty-whities? If the answer is yes, fine. If the answer is no, then there is a problem.

      1. Seriously?*

        That is where I fall too. I don’t really want to hear about any of my coworkers underwear shopping. But I also don’t really think it rises to the level of being called into the director’s office unless it is a part of a pattern. So mildly inappropriate conversation but huge overreaction by the director.

      2. Susan the BA*

        I think in most offices a detailed discussion of undergarment shopping (what size do you wear, what fit problems you have, etc) would be inappropriate or at least frowned upon. But I think simply saying “I need to go bra shopping” is like saying “I need to pick up some new jeans” or “gotta do laundry so I have clean underwear” – a normal part of being a clothes-wearing human.

        1. MuseumChick*

          I can see that. I still come down on the side of “Don’t talk about underwear at work.” This would also be super dependent on the culture of your office.

          Your friend seems to be in an office where discussing underwear is extremely frowned upon. There is nothing right or wrong about that as long it is “enforced” equally.

      3. Thlayli*

        Yeah, this would not be a big deal in my office, but I think it’s completely ok and normal for an office to have a culture that does not allow discussing underwear.

    2. This is me*

      I think the director sounds ridiculous! That’s no different than saying that she has to use the bathroom, I mean, come on, seriously?!

  137. AMT27*

    Question regarding tuition paid by an employer: I work at a firm that reimburses 75% of tuition costs if you are taking classes related to your job and make at least a B. The policy here is that if you leave within a year of this reimbursement, you have to pay back 100% of the tuition reimbursement, or 50% if you leave within two years. Which can result in some people sticking around two years to work off their tuition before leaving. A friend told me they recently learned this is actually not legal, that they cant make you pay back tuition – anyone know if this is accurate? Or is it only if the company paid the tuition for the class up front, then they can’t force you to pay it back, and since this is a reimbursement after the fact it is different?

    1. Seriously?*

      I am not a lawyer, but I know of many friends who work places with similar policies, including some that have it in their union contracts. I think that they cannot make you pay it back if you did not agree to that up front (so they can’t add that policy on AFTER paying for the class). But I could be wrong.

      1. AMT27*

        That makes sense.

        The friend who I referenced is a former co-worker, who got this info from her new co-worker – according to that person, a bank they worked at had a tuition program, and one employee left and refused to pay it back and sued and won. And so they could no longer require employees to pay the tuition back if they left, which resulted in lots of employees taking as many classes as they could and then quitting, so they in turn limited the number of classes they would pay for.

    2. This is me*

      Typically you have to sign this policy up front *and* sign a document stating exactly how much you would owe in order for the money to be owed back to the employer.

      I think it goes without saying that if you refuse to pay and leave before the reimbursement period is up that it would leave a bad taste in the employers mouth.

      1. AMT27*

        Definitely. I went into it knowing I’d be ‘locked in’ here for two years after graduation. And I actually don’t plan to leave after that anyway – I don’t have any plans to leave at all in the foreseeable future. But it would impact co-workers, and I’m just curious about the actual legalities of it.

    3. CAA*

      I think your friend may not have the full story here. Generally it is not illegal for employers to require you to repay tuition reimbursement if you quit prior to the agreed upon time frame. The exception is for things like the employer requiring the employee to take a specific class that’s only useful in that particular job and not transferable to other employers. Or there could be problems they tried to deduct the tuition from the final paycheck and the employee ended up below minimum wage for that period. There might also have been some other condition in their specific program that violated federal or state labor law.

  138. Tuxedo Cat*

    I had a good interview today, and it’s a job that I really, really, really want. It’s perfect location, perfect for my career goals.

    Good vibes and well wishes?

    2. DC*

      Congratulations! I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you, and look forward to a hopeful update next week!

  139. Jadelyn*

    So I’ve seen scripts here and in Alison’s book for asking an office-mate to use headphones for their music. Any ideas for how to modify that for if you’re fine with music being played in general, just not *that music*? My new office-mate likes to have music playing during the day, which I’m fine with. But she listens to sappy-sounding Christian ballads all day. It’s starting to drive me up a wall. (I am vehemently Not Christian and mostly listen to goth metal myself.)

    I don’t want to be like “can you just use headphones all day every day for your music” since it’s literally an all day every day thing, but I am not sure how to word “I am specifically really not liking the particular music you listen to, can you listen to something else instead if it’s going to be out loud for me to hear too?” or maybe “Could I pick the music sometimes?”

    She gets in before I do, which means I can’t just have my music running when she gets here, unfortunately.

    1. Seriously?*

      I think it is easier to tell her that you have very different taste in music and would really prefer is you either alternate picking music or both use headphones. Or you could try to see if there is any overlap in music taste, but that seems unlikely in this case.

    2. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      When her ballads are playing, in your head, replace every occurrence of the word “God” with “dog”. This should make them more tolerable if you are a dog person. Kidding! seriously, I agree with Seriously? There’s no other solution for this than asking for no music/headphones.

      1. Moonbeam Malone*

        Ha! There was a particularly grating song I used to have to hear at work every day that definitely would’ve benefited form this. “Glory to Dog, glory to Dog, glory to Dog, for-everrrr.” (My apologies to anyone who loves that song! Just very not-my-bag.)

    3. Murphy*

      If you’re ok with music in general, a “could I pick the music sometimes?” should work out ok. That’s a reasonable request even if you weren’t being driven crazy by her music in particular.

      Is it actually religious? You could object on those grounds, but that also may open up a whole other can of worms.

    4. This is me*

      Is it an option for you to wear headphones so that you can listen to music that you like?

    5. Tuxedo Cat*

      Could you ask that the music doesn’t have words? Would that work for you?

      I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask for her to use headphones, though.

    6. HannahS*

      I honestly think it’s ok to say, “Since I’m not Christian, and this isn’t a Christian workplace, I’m uncomfortable listening to Christian music all day. Could you either use headphones, or listen to secular music?”

    7. JeanB in NC*

      I would ask her to wear headphones. I would go batshit crazy having to listen to that all day. I don’t think anyone should play music at work where other people can hear – musical tastes are just too diverse.

    8. Temperance*

      Honestly, you can TOTALLY ask her to wear headphones. It’s preferable to being witnessed to all damn day long.

    9. Nacho*

      I think “can you just use headphones all day every day for your music” sounds pretty fair to me.

  140. Federal Hiring Question*

    Regular reader, occasional commenter, changing name for this. Also asking for a friend:
    Friend is a current US federal employee, recently applied for a promotion. The hiring manager is friend’s grand-boss, so it seemed like they had a decent chance. However, friend didn’t read the application instructions carefully enough and didn’t include a required supplemental document (think proof of some of the qualifications, not something like a resume or cover letter or writing sample). It was clearly stated the document was required. So the application didn’t pass the HR screen and wasn’t forwarded to the hiring manager. Since this is federal hiring, friend is done, right? Generally hiring managers can’t do anything about something like this? (And also maybe it wouldn’t even be wise to tell grand-boss one didn’t follow instructions well?)

    1. SpaceySteph*

      In my experience yes, friend is cooked. If you don’t get through the screening process and forwarded on to the hiring manager, they cannot hire you. Occasionally I’ve seen where they will hire nobody and re-open the req if their desired candidate didn’t get through, but that’s a lot of red tape to go through for someone you aren’t 100% sure you want to hire.

      1. LadyKelvin*

        That’s not actually true. You can appeal the decision through USAjobs and request your application to be reviewed by the hiring manager. There should be a way to contact someone listed on the job posting. We have to tell our applicants to do this all the time because often our background doesn’t fit into the exact wording that the job description does and people who aren’t in our field don’t realize that there are no standard course names, etc. Source: I technically have never made it through the screening process for my job because on paper I do not meet the qualifications even though I have a PhD on my specific job.

        1. Federal Hiring Question*

          Thanks. But would this hold if the problem was that the candidate didn’t follow directions? To me there could be a difference between, for example, not submitting a transcript at all, vs. submitting a transcript that shows a degree in teapot science instead of teapot studies.

  141. Piano Girl*

    I would love to know how you handle the Friday open thread. Do you read it during breaks? Do you keep a separate webpage open and visit it during the weekend? How do you keep track of what you’ve read?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I hide in the bathroom to read it. :)
      Or if I’m bored I’ll just read at my desk. It’s not such a big deal.

    2. Murphy*

      I read at my desk, often while eating lunch. Unless I’m super busy…which is not usually the case.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I refresh it during lulls in my work (Fridays are usually quiet here). I start by doing CTRL+F for my username to track any threads I’ve taken part of, then I go back up top and collapse all replies, then scroll down to wherever I left off (I try to make note of the username of my last-read comment, or rely on the blue “new comment” bar).

      I tend to skim the first line of a comment to see if it’s anything of interest to me or anything that I can be helpful with, and if not, move on to the next one. Using the “collapse replies” feature is really helpful to me.

    4. DrWombat*

      I read at lunch and when I get home, since mornings are a pretty solid stretch for me. I also usually ctrl-f for my username when I’m checking over the weekend.

    5. Someone else*

      I’ve switched methods recently but my current approach is:
      Open in the morning on personal device
      Collapse all
      Read as much as I can (expanding when interested, not when not), usually in the 20 minutes or so before I need to start work
      If I wanted to comment on anything do so the very last before starting work
      Leave tab open on device
      Work til lunch
      During lunchbreak resume where left off, reading all the way down
      When finished, again if desired comment, if not refresh the page so new shows up blue
      Read new collapsed threads as desired, and search page to go back to the handful of things I’d expanded previously to read anything new in there
      Repeat lunch break process later in the evening if desired

    6. Thlayli*

      I have insomnia so mostly read it when I can’t sleep. I don’t use my work computer for AAM.

  142. Anon anony*

    When you interview and they ask why you want to leave your current role, is there a way to say that you’d like to be in a more professional environment? My current place is way too laid back, but I don’t know how to say that. It’s not a good fit?

    1. This is me*

      I would be honest by saying it’s not the best fit for you and then go into some reasons why, without painting yourself or the company in a negative light. If it’s too laid back then you could say that you are looking for a more “go getter” or structured type environment.

    2. Emily S.*

      This reminds me of some things Alison has written about regarding corporate “culture” and “culture fit.”

      These might be interesting to read, so I’m going to add a couple links here. They are not directly discussing your situation, but are about “culture fit” more generally.

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/06/what-does-culture-fit-really-mean.html

      https://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2013/06/10/how-to-tell-if-a-company-culture-will-be-a-bad-fit

    3. Akcipitrokulo*

      “More structured” is better than (and more accurate :) ) than “more professional”. But in any event – it’s usually a good idea to say you want to go to something, rather than away from. “I’m looking to grow my career in…” “I’m interested in pursuing…” etc.

  143. Wants to forget*

    I worked at a company for just over 3 years and it wasn’t until a few months ago that I realized that I was bullied, belittled, and made to feel inferior throughout my entire time there. Friends and family members were telling me for years that the treatment I was getting wasn’t okay, but I was ignoring it until I found a huge amount of emails basically backing it all up. I have never felt like such a fool in my life and I’m sure you can imagine the toll that this took on my confidence, self-esteem, and mental health.

    Fortunately, I was in the position to quit and I was quickly hired somewhere else, which I recently started at. The people at the new job are amazing, and I’m actually thriving here and feeling so much better, but yet I still find myself thinking about the previous place. How did I let that happen to myself and how can people be that awful?! I keep wondering if they are still making awful comments about me, and what if they are doing things behind my back to

    I have blocked absolutely everything to do with this company from all areas of my life. Their email domain is blocked from mine, their phone numbers are blocked, all the employees social media accounts are blocked from mine. I have been trying my best to wipe out that entire time period. But I still feel like a fool and I just don’t know how I move on from this??

    1. Rosemary7391*

      I know it’s hard now, but I think if you give it time you’ll find it comes to mind less and less frequently. You’ve done all the right things, so you’ve just got to hang on while your brain catches up and realises you don’t have to worry about them anymore. Congratulations on the new job!

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      You sound like you’ve done an amazing job of moving on.

      If it’s causing you distress, you might consider talking to a therapist. But it’s pretty reasonable to go through some sort of processing timeline on this one. Your experience does sound pretty traumatic.

    3. Workerbee*

      You have already done the most important steps to moving on. First, you were able to quit–and let yourself quit!–and get to job searching; you can see and feel how you’re in a much better work environment; and you’ve blocked all that you can in a very invasive world.

      YOU did all that. Nobody else.

      The feelings are harder to get rid of, but they WILL get better, too. It may be just allowing yourself a small period of time every other day to wallow, or to practice redirecting techniques. When you catch yourself feeling like a fool, immediately make yourself think of 3 positive things.

      Or perhaps write out your experiences in a delicious all-names-changes story, publish it, and make $$. I don’t know if this is among what’s considered good paths to healing, but the spiteful part of me likes it. :)

      You’ve got this. You just have to realize you do.

    4. Akcipitrokulo*

      This is something to feel proud of. It’s difficult to see what’s going wrong when you’re in the middle of it, and surrounded by people who are skewing (possibly deliberately) your perceptions of what’s going on.

      You succeeded magnificently :)

    5. PurpleP*

      I went through something very similar, belittled and bullied. I know how you want to keep going over and over it in your mind trying to figure out what you did wrong. I’m just really curious what you found in the e-mails that you found so disturbing? I would have loved to find something like that because then at least I would know what people were really thinking instead of playing passive aggressive games with me. Glad you found happiness in your new job.

    6. Windchime*

      It just takes time, that’s all. I had a similar experience and it was super traumatic while I was going through it, to the point where I had to seek medical help because I was such a wreck. I found a new job and was pretty fragile when I started it, but I started feeling better almost immediately. I think it took me a good year before I felt that I was really leaving that place behind. I do have contacts with some really good people who still work there, but those are the only people I talk too.

      You are taking the right steps. Just give yourself time. As time goes on, you’ll think about it less and less. Also, if you think that counseling would help, it might not be a bad thing. I went to a counselor and all she did was say, “Yep, that’s pretty terrible of them and yes, you’re right to be looking for a new job.” It was very helpful to be validated by a neutral party and, although it wasn’t a deep dive into My Issues, it was still immensely helpful to me.

    7. ..Kat..*

      Celebrate that you figured it out before you spent even more time there. And refuse to give them even more of your time by dwelling on it now.

      You didn’t fail because you spent over three years there. You succeeded because you got out in less than four years! Good for you!

  144. This is me*

    I would be honest by saying it’s not the best fit for you and then go into some reasons why, without painting yourself or the company in a negative light. If it’s too laid back then you could say that you are looking for a more “go getter” or structured type environment.

  145. Anon anony*

    I have another interview ques: I had one phone screen and had a face-to-face interview today. They did a quick tour of the building, but said it would take “a couple of weeks” to make a decision, but the woman leaving said that they wanted to fill her position before she left at the end of the month and she handed me her business card. I’m assuming that I didn’t get the role, but is it too soon to tell?

    1. Susan K*

      Don’t read into this at all. First of all, the end of the month is in 13 days, so that is pretty much the same thing as the “couple of weeks” the interviewers said. Also, it is very common for hiring timelines to change, so while they may have initially hoped to fill the position by the end of the month, it’s very possible that the process is taking longer than they thought and that’s no longer the plan. In all likelihood, they haven’t made a decision yet. They may have more candidates to interview, and even if they don’t, it will still take some time to check references, make a decision, and do any necessary paperwork before making an offer.

    2. Seriously?*

      Why are you assuming you didn’t get the job? The day of the interview is almost always too soon to tell and the time frames you were told are consistent (“a couple of weeks” and “ideally by the end of the month” are essentially the same thing). At this point I would assume that they are going through all the interviews they scheduled at which point they will make a decision.

  146. SpaceySteph*

    Earlier this week I saw the strangest email signature:

    J. Doe
    Mom to Johnny, Bobby, and Susie
    [office phone number]

    This person is in an integration role, supposedly with technical background, at a serious engineering organization. I am so put off by this. It just seems so inappropriate for work.
    Occasionally around here people have quotes from famous people…Thomas Jefferson or something. I think I even saw a bible verse one time. But this takes the cake for me.

    Thoughts? Got one to top it?

    1. This is me*

      Ugh, it reminds me when moms write “CEO” on their FB or LI accounts because they are the “CEO of the household”. Super unprofessional at work though.

    2. Peaches*

      That’s bizarre and totally out of place! This doesn’t top it content-wise, but one of our customer once had quotations around literally everything in her signature. It looked like this:

      “Jane Doe”
      “Office Administrator”
      “Company XYZ”
      “555-555-5555”

      In my email conversation with the same lady, she also put quotations in random parts of her sentences like this:

      Hi Peaches, I was wondering if I could get a copy of “invoice #123456” sent to our “AP/AR processor”

      Super weird!

    3. Tuxedo Cat*

      Occasionally, I used to correspond with people who wrote like a manifesto of their teaching philosophy in their email signature. It would be easily 20-30 quotes, all attributed to them. Example: “Lecturing student for hours on end isn’t good.”- Tuxedo Cat

        1. Tuxedo Cat*

          Yes, I can think of three. Very odd people, not at the same institution, not in the same field.

          I don’t understand quoting yourself, let alone quoting yourself a bunch of times in an email signature or using such- basic quotes.

    4. Queen of Cans and Jars*

      I had someone apply for a low level leadership position at my company who listed Mom as her leadership experience.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      From the opposite side, when a teacher is emailing me to complain about my kid, I tend to send emails with the full version of my work email signature. I always kind of wonder if the teacher is thinking I’m being inappropriate.

      1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

        Teacher here: No, I just assume that your email client adds it automatically. I wouldn’t expect you to take the time to remove that stuff just because I’m not a business connection. (And I do appreciate it when people sign their emails things like “-Liam (Clara’s dad)” since I teach several hundred students who don’t always have the same last name as their parents.)

        I do admit that I raise my eyebrows slightly if I get an email from a parent and the email address is, like CrazyPartyGirl77 [at] aol or some such.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Good to know, thanks! (I really wonder about people in general who still have novelty email addresses. My first email address was Pellinore3@aol.com sometime around 1995, but I went to college soon after that and abandoned AOL, and have had a version-of-my-name type address ever since.)

    6. Emi.*

      Oh, I used to work with someone whose signature was a meaningless 4- or 5-line quote from “Author’s Three-Part Name, in ‘Corny Inspirational Book Title: Unnecessarily Long and Explanatory Subtitle That Shouldn’t Be There.” I don’t think I ever received an email from him that took up more space than his signature. Did I mention that it was in 18-point Comic Sans and three different colors?

      1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

        I have a friend who used to email me from her work email address and it appended a long, long mandatory piece about how the contents of this email were confidential and also save trees by not printing this email unless you need to. It was a whole paragraph and got added to everything she sent, even if it was only “Great, I’ll bring chips.”

    7. Boy oh boy*

      A notorious blowhard at my old university had a ridiculous string of letters after his name in his email sig. It went a little something like this:

      Guacamole Bob
      VP of Synergistic Commercialisation and Teapot Integration (Acting)
      [Two more job titles!!!]
      MBA MSc BSc IoBM PGP FARS MIXM MIoBM FRSE MSP (R) Chartered PMP CRes BHrd

      Maybe three of them are genuinely relevant, but most are just puffed-up membership organisations that anyone can join if you’ve got the right degree.

      He turned out to be all noise and no action. He was pushed out and the college blacklisted his consulting company as a supplier. It was pretty satisfying.

      1. A Nickname for AAM*

        Someone at my work has the following in their signature:

        Name
        Job Title
        National Affiliate Quality Assurance Team

        Incidentally, I participated in a National Affiliate program with this coworker and it was so far below basic QA practices I’m surprised she hasn’t been fired. I detailed all her QA failures in a complaint, it took three pages.

    8. Thlayli*

      It’s realky u professional, but so it having quotes from famous people. Bible verses are waaay worse. Wth!

      2. SpaceySteph*

        I guess maybe for me it was that the quotes usually follow a normal signature like… what department they work in or what their job function is. (Although the bible quote was pretty offputting, too) vs the kids names going where you would normally put “Vice President” or “Program Integration” or whatever.

  147. MissGirl*

    Dang it. A recruiter just reached out to me with the perfect job at a great salary. The drawback, the company has an MLM arm and has gotten trouble for dishonest business practices. Apparently essential oils can’t cure Ebola.

    I have to walk away, don’t I? Being an ethical company seems like a bare minimum requirement.

    1. DrWombat*

      Sounds like it. Working for something shady like that makes you feel slimy when you get home and winds up draining you emotionally in a hurry. I lasted all of two months shilling for my university on the phone as a telemarketer and their shady practices left me feeling sick to my stomach. Better to find a job where you can respect what you do, if that’s at all possible. Best of luck!

      1. MissGirl*

        Luckily I have a job. I just need the next step. But you’re right I would feel slimy encouraging something I don’t believe in. Just having a hard time saying no.

    2. Bad Candidate*

      Maybe? I mean Berkshire Hathaway owns A LOT of companies, one of them being Pampered Chef. I don’t know if I’d not work at one of the other companies because of that.

      1. MissGirl*

        I jus pulled out. It wasn’t just the MLM, which I found out was a lot bigger part of them than I thought (most of their revenue) but they have some shady business practices. It’s one company with no subsidiaries. They’ve had to pay fines for false claims and the founder was charged with some stuff years ago. The last fine was December so I’m not confident they’ve learned to be ethical.

        Knowing essential oil people and how passionate they are, I don’t think this is my culture. If I didn’t have a job, I might’ve considered more. I hate saying no, though. I’ve had a stomach ache since I talked to him.

        1. Canarian*

          Oh boy, is it Young Living? The back story on their founder is completely wild. Definitely a bullet dodged if so.

  148. Llama Wrangler*

    This is an HR question regarding vacation payouts (in New York State).

    Our official, written policy is: “Accrued, unused vacation leave will ordinarily be paid to the employee at the time of termination of service. However, an employee whose appointment is funded by restricted funds (e.g., grant, gift, etc.) will forfeit any unused vacation leave upon the expiration of a term appointment which coincides with the end of the grant period or upon an involuntary termination due to budgetary constraints, reorganization or similar reason.”

    While my whole team is on restricted funds, it has been the past practice to payout vacation for anyone who leaves their position. However, I am now being involuntarily terminated due to budgetary constraints, and I’m being told my vacation will not be paid out. Do I have any leg to stand on in terms of fighting this based on their past practice? (There’s also the wrinkle that my position is actually partially on grant funds and partially on non-grant funds, but I have been understood as “grant funded” for my entire time, so I think I may have more room to fight based on past practice.)

    1. Seriously?*

      Has anyone else who left had their position eliminated due to budgetary constraints?

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Not within my department, since I’ve been there. However, my understanding is that there is money on the budget lines that my salary is coming from to pay out those days (in other words, it’s not that there is zero cash).

        1. Seriously?*

          You might be able to argue it based on the fact that you are only partially grant funded, but I’m not sure that using the other coworkers as president would work if they did not leave under similar circumstances.

          1. Llama Wrangler*

            Thanks! This is coming from my grandboss, not from HR, and I had previously set up a meeting with HR, so I’ll try to see what they think about the situation. Otherwise, I guess I’ll try to convince them to let me take the days…

            1. ..Kat..*

              Hmm. If you are a woman over 40 years old, and if all the people who got vacation payouts were men in their 20s, maybe this would be a discrimination case. Might be time to consult a lawyer. What do you find when you google vacation payout and New York State? How much money is it to you?

    2. H.C.*

      If you bring up the partially non-grant funded portion of your argument, be prepared for them to pay you out only a partial amount of the vacation you accrued (presumably, based on % of your position that’s not grant funded) – still better than nothing though.

    3. C*

      I don’t know if it was law or responsible accounting at my organization, but when I was on a (federal) grant in NY, they had to set aside the funds for our PTO as we earned it and didn’t use it. The set aside was charged to the grant and then drawn down when we used it or it was paid out. I don’t remember the specific mechanics, but something like that.

      I think that was part of the overhead or fringe rate associated with the grant. It seems shady not to pay it out the same as all employees.

    4. ronda*

      you can try checking with your state labor board. If you know the names of other people who had your same situation but were paid the vacation time, then I think they might be interested.

      and it is possible that their policy is in conflict with the law (it wouldnt be in my state, nobody has to pay out the pto balance, but i think most do)

  149. Oxford Coma*

    Can anyone recommend business books that are significantly different in philosophy/approach from the majority? My department has an ongoing lunch and learn book club, and we’ve been reading fare such as “Seven Habits” and “The One Thing”. People are starting to complain that it’s all the same information, just reworded slightly from book to book.

    2. I am who I am*

      I like Just Listen (Mark Goulston) which is communications rather than business, but really good.

    3. Boredatwork*

      I really enjoyed the power of habits and the happiness curve is really popular right now. These aren’t necessarily business self-help books but are interesting reads.

    4. beanie beans*

      If your group is open to reading books that are generally targeted towards women in business, I really enjoyed Lean In and The Feminist Fight Club. I think it would be really interesting to read and discuss those with coworkers, although potentially could be disastrous also…

    5. Nanc*

      I loved Stand firm : resisting the self-improvement craze, by Svend Brinkman but I’m old and cynical!

      She’s such a geek! : women write about science, technology & other nerdy stuff, edited by Annalee Newitz & Charlie Anders.

      The Introvert Advantage: How Quiet People Can Thrive in an Extrovert World, by by Marti Olsen Laney. There’s a great chapter about working for and/or managing extroverts that has some great tips about communication.

      None are exactly “business” books but all are have interesting bits about relationships, communication and other stuff that always happens in the business world.

    6. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      Mindset, by Carol Dweck, isn’t a business book per se but I think has some good applications for business.

    7. Just a thought*

      I really enjoyed the Lean Startup. He talks about how big companies can have startups within them as well, and it’s not just Silicon Valley concepts

    8. Tabby Baltimore*

      Here are some of my recommendations.
      Most recently read Angela Duckworth’s book “Grit” which had some helpful insights for me, as well as John C. Maxwell’s 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. (Not all 21 spoke to me, but I got some useful insights in the sections on the “Law of Navigation,” “Law of Addition,” “Law of Solid Ground,” “Law of Connection,” “Law of Victory,” and the “Law of Legacy.”)
      Leaders Eat Last: Why some teams pull together but others don’t (Simon Sinek)
      The Founder’s Dilemma: anticipating and avoiding the pitfalls that can sink a start-up (an examination of the question “Do you want to be rich, or do you want to be king?”) (Noam Wasserman)
      Mastering Civility: a manifesto for the workplace (Christine Porath)
      The Opposable Mind: how successful leaders win through integrative thinking (Roger L. Martin)
      The Knack: How street-smart entrepreneurs learn to handle whatever comes up (Norm Brodsky & Bo Burlingame) — My hands-down favorite business book, even though I will never start a business.

  150. youremindmeofthebabe*

    Just out of curiosity, is anyone here a Professional Organizer? I’ve been looking into this as a new direction for myself and it just appeals to me. I’m looking for some pros/cons and how/why you became one. Thanks!!

    1. fposte*

      I think Vintage Lydia may have gone into organizing. I don’t know if she reads Friday threads (or even if I’m right)–VL?

  151. I'm A Little Teapot*

    I’ve been on PTO this week, and I really don’t want to go back to work next week. I just do not want to deal with the culture problems, the work problems, etc. I’m expecting that I’m going to have to challenge my boss’s boss because she put the project on hold last week, but still wants everything within budget. That’s NOT how this works. Plus, she’s trying to dictate how I do project management and her approach is REALLY not going to work for me. Just dreading all of it.

    Bright side, I’m meeting with a recruiter Monday.

  152. SomeoneRegularJoe*

    I told my boss up front that I was interested in a job. She was not happy with it and made a comment about my weaknesses.. To which, I realize that she is totally not aware the amount of work she drops in my lap and just swans off. Whenever, we talk about my work, she just shuffles it around or ask me to hand it of to another analyst (i.e. tell an analyst that she needs to do X, for reference, I’m a senior analyst). A few weeks later, after meeting the hiring manager, I’ve decided against applying to the job. But my boss seems to get even worse. I can’t assign work anymore, she sends it back to me. The team was constructed so that all the projects falls in my lap. When I asked if anyone wants to take up some pieces of the work, she shuts it down by saying that’s my job. If I have to take up the harder work and all the projects, what else is left for everyone else to do? To add cherry to the top, the 2 new analyst hardly have work while I am swimming in unending work. Is this work relationship salvageable? I have another opportunities but I’d hate to leave since it would make me look like a job hopper. But it’s a cycle, I join a team, be the highest performer, get overloaded with work beyond capacity, push back using all the tools shared here, and still get overloaded with work. So I change jobs. I’m kinda tired of it. What can I do to change this scenario? Should I just put my foot down and say no more, consequences bedammed? I have a meeting with the senior leader in my group soon, but I don’t know how to phrase my concerns properly.

    1. Mephyle*

      Is there some business-y way to phrase “If I’m supposed to do everything, what’s left for the rest of the team to do?”

    2. A Nickname for AAM*

      Get a new job, and then start saying no, consequences be damned, from your first day at that job. If you are a top performer, you need to be treated like a top performer, not someone whose job it is to do everyone’s scutwork. You have a skillset that’s in demand, and you should command some respect for it.

      Don’t do this in a rude way, but you do have to show people how you want to be treated.

  153. Fun Committee Co-Chair*

    My section at work recently decided to make a fun committee and I was appointed a co-chair along with one other person. Does anyone have any ideas for things we could do to make our workplace more enjoyable without making coworkers groan about “mandatory fun”? We already do birthday cards and cake for people who quit or retire. Please keep in mind that we’re a public agency doing this based on donations from team members so ideas must be relatively inexpensive. Thanks!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I was on a fun committee a few jobs ago! Things we did, all of which were opt-in with absolutely no pressure to participate, and hosted in our one large conference room: holiday baked goods swap/contest, Office Olympics (during the Sochi Olympics), BYOB trivia nights, World Cup watch party. I am sure there were other things, but those were the most memorable and best reviewed.

    2. Just a thought*

      someone at my office suggested screening movies or shows at lunch. We’re a government office and having people bring their own lunch

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      We have Snack Day about once a month in my office. There is an empty cube designated the Snack Cube, and everyone who wants to participate brings whatever and leaves it there, and we graze all day. It’s a nice low-key activity and the only cost is for people who actually bring something.

      Caveats:
      1. Make sure some people are designated to clean up otherwise it will NOT GET DONE
      2. Make it known that if you want to eat, you must contribute – don’t be shy about it. This helps ward off people who don’t bring anything except their entire tupperware collection in expectation that they can take home enough food for the next week on everyone else’s dime.

    4. Short & Dumpy*

      Also a federal government office. Things we do:
      -anyone who wants to goes on a 15-20 min group walk midafternoon (doubles as part of our wellness program & there is a nice park adjacent to our building)
      -we do a quarterly movie screeningof something silly but work related (optional since some of us hateit)
      -quarterly or so happy hours after work at pub a couple blocks away
      -quarterly optional potlucks
      -coffee Fridays where we take turns bringing snacks & spend half an hour or so chatting (this is open to other divisions to join us)

    5. Becky*

      My office is having a “fun” activity next week that I am very sad to be missing–they’re taking the entire department to see Solo.

    6. KX*

      This sounds silly but we have a jigsaw puzzle space and it really attracts attention. All kinds of people bond over it. A 1,000 piece puzzle is perfect.

    7. Akcipitrokulo*

      Make things opt-in. Have a variety, but don’t do anything controversial (like ours just did a sweepstake for Grand National. Not good.)

      If you can do food, that is always a plus – cheap biscuits & cakes, bit of juice and you’re off!

      Also arrange nights out – again, totally opt-in. IT just went to see Infinity War as a group.

    8. Windchime*

      We had a mini-pumpkin decorating contest last fall. The boss had us each choose a mini pumpkin and then on a certain day, we brought them to work and someone’s spouse judged them via cell phone pics. (I won the Martha Steward award for having the prettiest — I mod-podged it with tissue paper and then rolled it in sugar while it was still wet). The prizes were silly things that the boss had in her office, and this fall they will be passed on to the new winners.

    9. kmb*

      My workplace [used to be] quite fun, here were things we did / tried, mostly as individual initiatives but we have tried a couple of things as a more intentional workplace wide thing. All were opt-in:

      – movie screenings (disaster movies, halloween are popular)
      – holiday bake off
      – Workout Wednesdays (people brought in videos)
      – we also did Get Moving breaks for a while but ran out of steam on that. Walks around the building and dance parties were most popular. (There was also a little while where we were going through a dance party craze, and one day I was in 4 dance parties)
      – secret santa
      – Games at Lunch (this has been ongoing for about 4 years, people bring in boardgames and play together, participation is occasionally like 15 people, sometimes like 2-3). Some people come and chat and don’t play, which is also great.
      – Mug Club, which was curated by one staff member, who picked articles to read (normally relevant to our field / things we were concerned about) and we would discuss them while drinking coffee. A couple times it has become waffle club when people bring in waffle irons.
      – yearly picnics or pot lucks, sometimes just one department, sometimes everyone
      – other teams did monthly pot luck lunches
      – Monthly lunch outings
      – candy at random people’s desks (they just decided to do that)
      – we have a cake club where you buy in and get cake once a month to celebrate the birthdays that month for people in the club
      – many staff join a rec soccer league together

      (boy do I miss when most of these were a thing)

  154. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Two weeks in at my new job and I still love it.

    I am just impatient and want to KNOW ALL THE THINGS so I’m getting a little frustrated by how slow the person training me is going.

  155. ADubbs*

    I was working with a company for several years. I, not my manager, did the vast majority of work on a certain project while my hands-off manager checked in on the progress once a month or so. He was always impressed with progress I made. Everything was ahead of schedule and proceeding nicely. However, I was not happy with the company as there was no potential for promotion, raises were frozen and the culture was toxic. Another company approached me with a great offer and I accepted. When I resigned, I gave more than 2 weeks notice, detailed the outstanding items and delegated when possible. My resignation meant that my hands-off manager would now have to pick up the remaining items due for the project. Fast forward 90 DAYS, I just heard from another employee that my manager is reporting to the higher-ups that I dropped the ball on the entire project, didn’t complete important tasks and rendered the project 100% unusable. This is absolutely false! Oddly, the higher-ups have reached out to me to see if I can participate in a conference call to clear up the ‘confusion’ and offer clarity on the status of the project. I don’t want to, but I do want to clear my name and reputation. How should I respond?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I would do the call and be very factual and professional. If you’ve got documentation, prepare it. Not sure what the outcome might be, but as awkward and uncomfortable as it might be, I would be really, really mad that my former manager said that, and I’d want to clear my name.

      Btw I can totally see my actual former manager doing this – he was very hands-off, gave me tons of praise, until he had to do something himself, and then he was up in arms. But I always kept very detailed documentation and shared it liberally so he didn’t have a chance to hang me out to dry.

      1. Murphy*

        This. Don’t get defensive, just be matter of fact.

        And if they say anything inaccurate (e.g. “The blue invoice never got delivered…”) I’d just express polite confusion “That’s weird. I’m not sure where the information came from, because I have it here that I delivered it on 4/1 and they confirmed receipt.”

      2. ADubbs*

        Exactly! I’m relieved that someone else understands the craziness of this kind of psychotic behavior, yet, I’m sorry that you had to endure it as well.

    2. fposte*

      I would send an email detailing what you did, who you handed off to, and what your understanding was about the subsequent processes, and say that regrettably because of your new job you won’t be available for further conversation.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        I like this idea better. Gets the job done without an awkward phone call!

        1. fposte*

          I thought about why I resisted the phone call so much, and I realized it felt too much like being available to the former employer at their convenience. I mean, that’s the kind of conversation you leave to avoid; you definitely don’t want to have it unpaid.

          1. Temperance*

            Plus, email leaves a paper trail, which is very important when dealing with liars.

      2. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        That’s a great suggestion, have it all in writing copying multiple people.

      3. ADubbs*

        I really like this idea – thank you! I don’t want to be caught off guard on a phone call. Drafting an email gives me time to hone my message. And to your point, it’s almost as if they still assume that I am at their beck and call. I need to make it clear that I am not.

  156. Mel*

    I have a new coworker who is the same age and experience level as me. I’m marginally more senior than her but we’re basically at the same level. She does good work, but she’s mentioned off-hand that she’ll sometimes watch TV while doing work. While we occasionally have mindless tasks where that may not be distracting (though personally, I feel like a podcast would be more appropriate), I feel like my boss would not be happy about this and I should give my coworker a heads up. But I’ve also already tried to gently correct her about something before that went against our handbook, and it turned out that she had already cleared it with the boss. I don’t want to be “that coworker” but does anything else think this is worth weighing in on? (At a minimum, she should be more discreet…I thought this was common sense!)

    1. Julie*

      I’d say to let it go. Maybe she’s uber focused and gets her work done just as well with it on. I’ve always preferred “staying in my lane” when it comes to coworkers unless it has a real negative effect on organization or you personally. If your boss finds it inappropriate it will warrant a conversation I’d assume not a major disciplinary action.

    2. Red Reader*

      If you only know because she mentioned it, I’d say she’s being plenty discreet. A tv show doesn’t necessarily require any more attention than a podcast.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Leave it alone. If her work is good, this is not your problem. Nor is it your business. Everyone has different ways of concentrating. For some people, music is helpful and for others, it’s a distraction. For some, having Netflix on in the background is no different than listening to NPR. If your boss isn’t happy about it, she can speak to your coworker herself.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        This x 1000. I see no advantage to you of bringing up additional small complaints against a coworker who seems to be meeting her bosses expectations. You’re just going to look like you have it in for her, and when you need her cooperation in the future you’ll have lost all her goodwill. Make like Elsa, let it goooo, just focus on doing your own work well and making sure your boss understands what you’re doing.

    4. Lindsay J*

      I don’t think it’s worth weighing in on.

      I watch TV at work sometimes. I don’t see it any different than listening to music or a podcast. It’s generally a show I’ve seen a dozen times and that I don’t really have to attend to, but it keeps me from feeling bored while I’m doing boring things.

      However, I know the optics of it aren’t great, so I do avoid doing it when higher ups are around, when outsiders are in the area, etc.

      I would just let her keep doing it. If the boss finds out she’s doing it and doesn’t like it, she’ll get in trouble then.

      Unless you’re a team lead or something I can’t see you facing any blowback for not stopping it prior, even if you did know about it.

    5. Seriously?*

      Only say something if it is distracting you or impacting your work in some way or if she asks your opinion. Otherwise, it is not your problem and she probably won’t respond well to “gentle correction” from a peer.

    6. Nacho*

      I’m with your coworker on this one. As long as your boss doesn’t have a problem with it and it’s not interfering with her work, then I don’t see why you should care if she multitasks. As for being discreet, if she’s allowed to do it, then why does she need to hide it?

  157. LizB*

    My workplace just switched to Office 365, and now when I receive an email with certain types of attachment, it first comes in with a “we’re scanning this” placeholder attached instead of the actual file, and I have to wait a bit and then remember to go back into my Outlook and click on the message again once it’s loaded. (I generally open messages immediately upon receiving them, so they end up marked as read right away.)

    After doing some research, I think my org’s central IT chose this placeholder option vs. delaying delivery of the email altogether until the attachment scan is done, but I can’t figure out if I can change the settings for myself. Anyone know if I can switch myself to the delayed delivery option? I’d much rather have emails come in slightly later but with the real files attached.

  158. NaoNao*

    Has anyone here lived/worked in China as a North American expat? I’m considering a pretty radical career shift and would love “the real story” from others who have. I have lived/worked in SE Asia for three years so it wouldn’t be as much of a culture shock as it might be for others, but I would love any 2 c that people have.
    **other than warnings easily available online such as “get your work visa, not a tourist visa”

  159. But....I'm not!*

    Coming up on two months at my new job. It has been….a challenge to say the least, and something happened this morning that will result in me sending out my resume, en masse, this weekend. Any job would be better at this point.

    I had posted recently about working for a start up, CEO is in Africa, President’s wife is undermining pretty much everything. Something new to add to the mix.

    This morning, the third (10%) partner went into the president’s office to chat behind closed doors. I thought I had a really good rapport with this partner but was proven wrong. He went into the pres’s office and closed the door. They chitchatted and then I heard the president say (my office is next to his and the wall are very thin) “How’s But….I’m not! doing?” The 10% partner said “She’s doing good, calmed down now (I was very upset at the actions of the president’s wife and sought his advice on how to deal with it). I’ve worked with her long enough now that I’m very concerned that she will go out and get drunk or do a bunch of coke some night and come in here the next morning upset all over again. She is mentally unbalanced!”

    I don’t drink. Maybe a glass of wine every six months. I’ve had the same bottle of wine in my fridge since I moved into my new home 18 months ago…and that bottle is unopened! I just don’t drink. And drugs? HA! Not since the mid to late 80’s! And no one has ever called me mentally unbalanced, even people who have known me the majority of my 51 years on this planet. Yes, I have a valium prescription for when my anxiety is through the roof (which is now is, thanks to this overheard conversation) but that hardly makes me mentally unbalanced.

    This job started out as my dream job but has, over the past 3-4 weeks, morphed into one of the most toxic environments I have ever worked in. When I first heard this conversation, I seriously almost vomited into my trashcan. I wish today would end. I wish I could get just a small break in this life. Seriously considering just packing up and moving somewhere no one knows me. Just so damn sad right now.

    Oh, and while everyone else gets their birthdays celebrated with a cake and a card and a small gift card, mine was completely ignored last week.

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Right! Go for it with the resumes!!

      Damn. That would have me calling out sick for the rest of the afternoon.

      1. But....I'm not!*

        OMG, I almost walked out. I walked out of my office and the receptionist looked at me and asked me if I needed help, she thought I was having a heart attack. I felt like I was.

        I plan on sending out for any and every job I am qualified for. And I’ll be damned if I’m going to give any notice. Good luck paying those bills when the bookkeeper leaves! LOL…..

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Yeah, they’re going to be up a creek, at least for a little while. Best of luck and Happy Belated B’day.

          All that sux.

    2. Purplerains*

      That really, really, REALLY sucks. I am so sorry. Send out your resume far and wide. Do not listen to the 10% partner. It sounds like he has many, many issues of his own. You will get through this and it will be just a blip on the radar. Happy, happy belated birthday! Also sending you a virtual hug.

      1. But....I'm not!*

        Thank you for the birthday wishes, Purplerains! You’re the only non-family member who wished me HB!

        Yeah, he’s got enough issues that he has a whole damn subscription. I could go on for days about his dysfunction. I’m sending out resumes to any and every job I am qualified for. I’ll take the first thing that comes along and I’ll be damned if I give notice.

    3. MissGirl*

      You must be one of those hysterical females. You know the ones who want to be treated with respect and feel they have job security.

      1. But....I'm not!*

        I am…and WTH am I thinking to think I deserve any kind of respect and/or job security? I was the only female in this office until the new receptionist came on board a week and a half ago.

        Sure hope I land something quickly!

    4. Lil Fidget*

      Ugh, I guess you can only try to reframe this as a gift in that you now know where you stand with these people – and yes you need to get out as soon as you can. But at least you won’t be blindsided by their opinion when you thought you were all getting along okay.

      1. But....I'm not!*

        Yes, I’m actually glad it happened. At least now I know and can move forward with my decisions. I did manage to get a lot of resumes out this weekend, so hopefully something will pop this upcoming week or next!

    5. It’s all good*

      happy belated birthday! I hope you are able to use that rat bastard words as fuel to get another job. And look forward to celebrating your birthday again once this is all over with.

      1. But....I'm not!*

        Thanks, I let it get under my skin and used my anger/hurt from that to fuel my planting my ass in this chair and sending out a lot of resumes this weekend. Hoping something pops more sooner than later. I want my revenge. (Childish, I know….but I am so looking forward to handing them a letter that says “I resign, effective immediately” along with my office key and then just walking out into the Florida heat, humidity and sunshine!)

  160. Violette*

    Anytime my soon-to-be retiring boss starts up with “Do me a favor..”, I cringe inwardly. It’s not a favor. It means I’m about to get lectured about something trivial.

  161. ellemess*

    I work at a startup. Some of my colleagues are demanding that management show employees all the company’s financial info – cash flow, names of investors and what percent ownership they have, amount the company is making from each of its contracts, profit information, names of all members of the board and whether they get compensated, etc. They feel they have the right to know the company’s full financial health and to know the name of everyone connected with it so they can make a fully informed decision about whether they want to work here. They think that if the company doesn’t want to show employees this information, that there’s something to hide.

    I get why some people would feel they had the right to know some of this information – after all, no one wants to show up to work one day to find that their employer has closed down with no reason – but this seems like stuff that employees of non-publicly-held companies just generally don’t get to see, and that a lot of it is probably proprietary. Are they being unreasonable? Am I being too generous to my corporate overlords in thinking that? Or is this information that employees should be able to see, and does saying no mean that my company is being weirdly non-transparent with us?

    For what it’s worth, the company shows no signs at all of financial distress, isn’t frivolous with its funds, staff and management are generally pretty happy, and there doesn’t seem to be any reason to believe that there are evil people involved at the investor/advisor level.

    1. FD*

      That’s insanely out of touch with professional norms. I would distance yourself from this; it sounds like it could be an ‘intern dress code’ situation.

    3. Owler*

      Eh, startups are weird like that though. What round of funding is the company at? Are the founders making the rounds for additional funding? Are employees worries about vesting shares? Granted, most of this is hard to learn, but there is some digging employees can do, and some reassurances that can come from the founders.

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      “Open book transparency,” also referred to as “financial transparency” or “open book management,” got a lot of press in 2016-2017. You can input these terms into your browser to learn more, but it is basically a business practice that is normally centered on providing employees with a lot of financial data about the business, to include income and expenditures and even, in some cases, salaries (“pay transparency”) and charitable giving. Your colleagues are not out of line to ask for this information (especially if any of them are also shareholders), but it is possible that they may be approaching getting this information in an ineffective way; perhaps you sense some of the employees are unnecessarily bending leadership’s noses out of joint over it. There are advantages and disadvantages to businesses that decide to go this route, so you might want to read some more about this practice before you make up your mind one way or the other. I can’t speak to whether your company is being “weirdly non-transparent” with you; the only way I can think of to assess that would be to look at corporate leaders’ past behaviors related to controversial issues, and see if their talk and their walk are in alignment.

  162. AnotherAlison*

    I monitor job postings on Glassdoor occasionally, and I got an email from them today with the subject line encouraging me to apply now. . .to my own job. I know people sometimes ask if their salary estimates are accurate. I would have to say no. They provide a $30k range for this position, and the low end is less than half of my salary, and probably a little less than a new grad would be offered in my company ( this is not a new grad role). The high end might be close to what the newer people (with ~10 yr work experience) in the role make.

    I think of all the postings I skim past because of that estimate. Even when you know it is bad, it influences you.

  163. Kathleen_A*

    So: Retirement. I had an interesting discussion with my husband and one of our dear friends on this topic, and I’m curious what the AAM commentariat thinks.

    During a dinner together a few weeks back, DH and Dear Friend somehow or other got into a discussion on retirement. I am I’m hoping to retire in about 7 years, but DH is only about 3 years behind me, and DF another 3 years after that.

    The thing is, *both* of them said, pretty much unanimously, “Oh, I’ll never retire!” Well, OK, DF worked a lot of different jobs for many years while getting her bachelor’s and master’s, then a second master’s and then finally her PhD. She therefore really just got started on her intended career a few years ago. So I can certainly understand why she wants to keep it up for a good long while yet. After all that time and effort acquiring the necessary degrees and certifications and so on, you obviously want to have a chance to use that stuff. As for my DH…well, he’s just not good at leisure.

    But me, I’ve been working in my field – the field I trained for in college – for my entire career, and while I’ve enjoyed it and still enjoy it, I am very much looking forward to slowing down in a few years. I thought this was normal? But to my surprise, neither of them could imagine a life without coming into work several days every week, to the extent that when I said, “Well, I hope to retire in about 7 years,” they were…OK, almost aghast – as though I announced plans that were outlandish, inexplicable and quite, quite peculiar – e.g., “I’d like to shave my head” or “Let’s raise grasshoppers for fun and profit.”

    “If you retire, what will you *do* all day?” DH said, obviously in the belief that I hadn’t considered what a freaky thing I was contemplating. I said that there is some writing I’d like to do, some volunteer work I’m considering, some classes I’d like to take – and that I might not mind having another job, so long as it wasn’t full time and was close to home, so as to eliminate my longish commute. But even so, both DH and DF shook their heads at my – at *my* – peculiarity.

    But it’s not really peculiar, is it? I mean, is it? Is it really so odd to have a career that one enjoys and is good at, but that one still wants to retire from?

    1. fposte*

      Not really, but it also depends who you’re talking to. I’m in academics, and professors like to die with their boots on, so they don’t as a rule talk much about retirement (I’m swimming upstream a little to consider going early there). The other thing is that a lot of people who really love their jobs and can’t imagine retiring suddenly find they can imagine it a few years down the line.

      But the other thing is that retiring well often involves some mental prep, and DH hasn’t done any of that. So as the topic comes back or he sees what you get to do, he’s going to start to imagine what life would look like in retirement as more than the absence of doing his job.

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      It is not odd. You sound perfectly normal. I think there is just a lot of talk these days of being SUPER PRODUCTIVE ALWAYS LEARNING AND DOING. Which is fine for some, but for others, not your jam. If you need something to do to fill your days, volunteer. Take walks. Pick up a fun hobby. There is no need to work until you die if your situation allows for it.

      I enjoy my job, and I am planning staying here until I retire one of these days (I’m 34) but my decision to keep working will mostly come down to money. I’d love to retire early, but I ain’t rich!

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I hear most people now should expect to retire only when their health goes out (or they become caretakers for someone who does) but I really hope I get to retire on purpose and enjoy at least a few golden years. I do understand that SS is likely to fail millennial like me, and of course we don’t expect pensions etc. I worry that my 401K could never be enough – I’ve heard you need to save at least a million dollars a person, and apparently I’m behind where I should be at 33 – but I still hope it will happen. So if you can do it, do it! Do it for all of us who may never get to :)

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          I sometimes question that “you need a million dollars” thing, but maybe that’s just because I don’t want to believe it’s true!

          1. Windchime*

            My parents don’t have anywhere near a million dollars. They have a few thousand in the bank and they own their house free and clear, so that would be (optimistically) another $400k if/when they sell it. But Dad gets SSI and a small pension and they live quite a nice life. Nothing fancy but they are happy. I think the million dollars is if you want to continue to live a life at the same level you lived while you are working.

            My plan is to have a small place that I will own free and clear, but that may be a pipe dream. I won’t need to pay for my fancy car or Starbucks when I’m retired (both are things I do now). So a million dollars sounds great, but I don’t think it’s required.

            1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

              Thanks for sharing that, that does make me feel better. I will have a pension when I retire (if I stay at my current university, which I hope to do), and then my husband and I both have investment accounts. I don’t think we’ll have a million dollars but I think you’re right, as long as we’re not expecting to live like we are now (which is still fairly conservative), then I hope we’ll be okay. Our plan is to be as debt-free as possible, including a paid-for house.

              Also my husband is the type who will work until he dies, not out of desire but if that’s what he needs to do, he’ll find a low-key job and do it. I’m really hoping for the “do nothing” type of retirement. :)

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I see a little bit of everything, but I definitely think there are fewer retire-at-65-and-join-a-bowling-league types than there were back when my grandparents retired in the 1980s. I’m still a long way away from retirement, but I can very easily imagine having had enough of my lifelong career in 15 years, even though I probably should work another 25+ yrs. I can’t yet imagine not doing higher paid, higher skilled work, though. An encore career or volunteering sounds nice, but I can’t see my self as a volunteer guide at a hospital or anything like that. (No particular reason for picking that. . .)

      Anyway, I say do what you want! My mom is retiring next year (at 66), and my dad wants to work 4 more years, even though he is slightly older. Different strokes for different folks.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I also assume the idea of someone retiring at 65 and bowling was that they would probably expect to pass away in their, what, early to mid 70s? It seems like people are living longer – I’m not going to go bowling for *30 years* if I make it to 95!

        1. AnotherAlison*

          My dad’s dad lived to 84 and was retired from GM longer than he worked there, and his mother is 92 and still alive (and receiving GM beneficiary and state pensions). My mom’s dad lived to 90. It was a lot of bowling, although both grandfathers had encore jobs. One as a bus driver, and one throwing newspapers, which both sound terrible to me. : ) I assume I will die in an accident or live to over 100. Bleck.

        2. fposte*

          I’m looking at retiring earlier than 65, and I don’t even like bowling :-).

          The big things, among the retired people I know, are travel and time with family and friends, with volunteering and taking courses coming up behind that. Not all of those are things you do for 30 years; also, the travel you do at 60 isn’t necessarily the kind of travel you do at 80, and same for volunteering. A lot of people have moderate encore careers, ranging from doing a few turns in retail (I was just thinking that there’s a gender factor there, in that I know a lot more men who have a few hours at a hardware/home improvement store than women who have a few paid hours anywhere) to work-level volunteer involvement in a nonprofit.

          The axiom I hear a lot is to retire to something, not just from something, which seems to make sense to me. But for a long time I could never imagine retiring, and, well, now I can.

          1. Overeducated*

            My dad retired before 65 and has spent most of his time gardening, taking road trips with family, and…working half-ish time as a consultant for his old company, but with more flexibility. That seems fairly common among high level white collar people I’ve encountered (though a couple in government have politely but firmly made clear that they will NOT be volunteering o do anything related to their jobs). It seems like a nice way to make that transition on your own terms.

      2. Kathleen_A*

        I’m actually planning on retiring at 67-68, not 65 (the Social Security Administration clicks its tongue at you if you try to draw SS at 65, assuming it isn’t bankrupted before I retire). And I don’t bowl. :-) But I’m pretty sure I can find some things to keep me active and busy.

    4. Free Meerkats*

      I’m looking at all that stuff. Boss is retiring end of the month so it’s fresh in my mind and I have a countdown app on my phone set to the day I’m eligible for full SS (a bit over 4 years.)

      Not sure what I’m going to do, but I know I’m not going to sit in my chair and vegetate – much.

    5. The Original K.*

      My mother retired last year and she says she misses the people but not the work. She talked about retiring for two years before she actually did, so she was definitely ready. She has an acquaintance who retired from his BigLaw partnership and haaaaaaated being retired (he hadn’t had free time basically ever, so he didn’t know what to do), so he does a lot of pro bono work now and fills the rest of the time with his four grandkids.

      (When people I know in my generation say “I’ll never retire,” we mean we doubt we’ll be able to afford to do so, not that we love our work so much that we can’t imagine not doing it. I say all the time that I can’t wait to retire, but I have decades of working time ahead of me unless I hit the lotto or otherwise come into money.)

      1. Windchime*

        My dad originally retired from the Post Office when he was 60. He stayed home for a few years, working around the house and helping to care for his elderly mother. Once his mom passed away, he started to get antsy so he got a part-time job in one of those little postal stations that you often see in drugstores. He loved it; he still got to see customers and do his postal work, but it was part time and flexible. He finally retired again in his late 60’s and this time it seems to have stuck.

        On the other hand, I work with a guy who is 84. He looks like the kind of guy who probably rides his bike to work and I hear that he still plays soccer. He is making noise about retiring soon, but who knows?

    6. Seriously?*

      I think it is the difference between the “work to live” and “live to work” mentality. I can’t imagine retiring if I am still mentally and physically able to do my job. I love it and a lot of my purpose is centered around it. I get antsy after a few days of vacation.

    7. TotesMaGoats*

      My dad was a pastor for about 30 years and then in his last 10 switched to hospice chaplain. Couldn’t stand the bureaucratic nightmare. Impacting his health in many ways. Depression is a serious issue for him so this wasn’t helping. My parents have a sizable inheritance from my evil (really) grandmother who was a depression baby and saved money like it was going out of style. My parents, kindly, were worried about leaving money for my sister and I. We called them both up short and said: 1)We gots money. 2)We’d rather you be alive than have money when you are dead.
      So, they talked with their financial guy and my dad retired last year. His health, dramatically improved both physically and emotionally. He gets to be full time Poppy to two grandkids (which is great for me). He calls himself a “house husband” and loves taking care off all the stuff now so my mom does basically nothing. Which is good because she’s working herself into the ground. Plus, he does funerals and weddings “on the side” and still visits some of his patients. He reads a lot. My parents are finally traveling like they always said they would.

      My mom plans to retire in about 6 years. She’ll be 70. She is ready to be full time Nana but also loves her job. I think she’d work as long as she was physically able if she could. She does want to retire though.

      I’m about 15 years into my career and my husband and I are already planning on when we’ll retire. I don’t want to have to work (or really want to work) until I’m dead. I want to retire and go take fun classes at the community college, travel, and maybe play with possible future grand kids. I want to be healthy enough to do that.

    8. JeanB in NC*

      I’m 11 years off full SS retirement, but I think I’ll probably still work part time (or seasonally) after that. I am a bookkeeper, and also have a library degree, and I think both of those lend themselves well to part-time work. I doubt sincerely I will have any problem being partially or fully retired – I’m a person who only works because I have to support myself. It’s not really my thing.

    9. Emi.*

      I am definitely going to retire, because I have PLANS for my old age, namely living in a tiny house and cultivating a wild tangle of brambles in the front yard so you can’t see whether I’m sitting on the porch or not. I want the neighborhood children to tell each other I’m a witch, and argue about who has to retrieve balls that go in my yard, and dare each other to run up and touch my steps. I want the mail carrier to tell them that’s silly, but still feel a little nervous going up my twisting stone path through the brambles to deliver my mail.

      If anyone sees me waiting at the bus stop with a briefcase, the jig will be up.

    10. The New Wanderer*

      I feel like I’m semi-retired right now (coming up on a year of unemployment), though I guess technically I’m more in the SAHM category since my kids are young. NGL, I could see doing this for longer except that pushes back actual retirement for my husband and me, and oh yeah, I still have 20+ prime working years I could give to some company or other. In the meantime, I probably have enough household chores, errands, and miscellaneous things to fill up 4 hours every day that I would otherwise be working, and the other 4 hours is for crafts, writing, and job hunting stuff.

      However, my parents retired a few years ago (in their late 60s) and it sounds amazing. They just do hobbies and sports all day every day, or nothing all day long, and go on 3-4 day road trips around the area whenever they want. Neither is into writing or continuing education type activities, but both have taken some classes related to their hobbies. The clubs in their neighborhood are run by the retired people who still want to be running things, so things are really well managed. They love it.

    11. WolfPack Inspirer*

      I think this might be another facet of the ‘live to work’ vs ‘work to live’ divide.

      My father in law is a ‘live to work’ – he’s started at least 7 companies and either passed them off to subordinates or turned them into mostly-independent entities that he ‘consults’ (read meddles) with constantly, while setting up the next thing. He’s juggling three right now and working on starting another. He will never ‘retire’ in any meaningful sense – if he ever stopped working I really do think he’d just die.

      My husband on the other hand, works his 9-5 (ish) and leaves work at work and has hobbies and recreational interests and is perfectly happy to totally unplug while on vacations. He’d be a perfect retiree – too bad the economy screwed us over and we can’t figure out any way to feasibly make that happen.

    12. Becky*

      My grandmother retired in her 60s (I think) and then traveled quite a bit–I would love to be able to do the same. But now I worry about if my 401k will be healthy enough (in my 30s NOWHERE near what most financial advice says I should be at).

    13. Thlayli*

      Everyone I know looks forward to retirement. Your DH and Friend are the unusual ones.

    14. Surely not Shirley*

      I am going to retire at the first opportunity that allows for the lifestyle I’ve grown accustomed to, which hopefully will be exactly five years to this day. I hate working. It interferes with all enjoyable activities, like sleeping, reading, gardening, extensive travels, cooking, lounging about the house, binge watching 70s TV shows, and so on. Life is full of fun magical things. Working ain’t one of them.

    15. ronda*

      when i was laid off I was not toooo interested in getting a job. I hate interviewing, but dont mind working.

      So I ended up off for 2 years and being kind of bored. Turns out i am not much of a self-entertainer, but I do have a good tolerance for boredom.

      Back at the job…. I like the job and the people…. but it just takes up so much dam time.

      I probably have enough money to retire, but who knows for certain.

  164. Free Meerkats*

    The Providence conference was mostly great! I had plans to see and do things in the evenings. While walking the 100 meters from the bus drop off to the hotel, I managed to catch on some uneven pavement and go down like a sack of potatoes. Seriously bruised right hand, road rash on right arm, and worst, sprained/strained my left calf. So walking more than absolutely necessary was right out.

    I didn’t miss a session, learned a lot of useful things, and did my share of patronizing the free bar at the receptions.

    I can almost walk well now, debating asking for a wheelchair for the airports. On the Peter Pan bus to BOS now, only one crying baby.

  165. Julie*

    I have been a school counselor for 13 years but am itching to switch gears. I’d like to apply for a position at a non profit that requires volunteer coordination as well as many other tasks. I feel confident I have experience in many of the realms they’re seeking. Before becoming a counselor I was a journalism major and worked as an editor/writer for a few years. They’re asking for a writing sample as part of the application package. I feel really confident in my writing but my last published piece was 18 years ago and it’s disappeared. About 8 years ago I responded to a NYTIMES column in a a few paragraphs that was posted online and it’s pretty eloquent (but seems sort of weird to use a comment as a writing sample). My only other option is to come up with a mock press release or newsletter item that is something that this organization would likely produce. Is it okay to make up something like this so they can see how I write or is it odd? Thanks!

    1. Lil Fidget*

      If it were me, and my samples were old, I would probably give myself an “assignment” to write an op-ed or letter to the editor on an issue I cared about (ideally, that’s relevant to the issue area or type of work the organization does). Since you were actually a writer I’d assume you’d have a leg up here. Maybe you can incorporate some of the good elements from your online comment. You can pursue actually publishing the op ed if you want too, that’d be a cherry on top.

      1. Julie*

        I really like the idea of writing an OpEd! I’d just have to get it published mighty quickly or the job will probably get filled. Thanks!

        1. Lil Fidget*

          You can submit it as a sample op ed though, without it being published. It’s just to demonstrate the kind of writing you’re capable of.

    2. Kathleen_A*

      If it’s not journalism-type writing that they’re interested in, I’d say almost anything substantive would work – a report, for example, or even a letter. But if you think they’re interested in journalism-style writing, yes, I’d say some sample news releases might be the ticket. Or is there any chance you could actually write an article, e.g., make some phone calls, collect some facts and write 400 words or so?

      I don’t think the comment is very useful, unfortunately, partly because it’s a comment but mostly because it, too, is getting pretty old by now.

      1. Julie*

        All my letters currently are to parents telling them their child is failing or recommending mental health services…not exactly scintillating reading :) I do like the idea of writing an article – wonder if it matters or not if it never gets published.

        1. Kathleen_A*

          Then it sounds as though you’re freeeeeeee to do pretty much whatever you want. Published clips are (as you know, Julie) standard in journalism, but this isn’t journalism, so I don’t think there’s any reason to assume that j conventions apply.

          Ooh, if an unpublished article just rubs you the wrong way (and I, too, went to journalism school, so it would definitely bug me), another thing I thought of is if you have a friend who has a blog, maybe you could write a guest column for the blog? That would be sort of published.

  166. Confused College Student*

    I’m 22 and, after taking some time off school for medical reasons, am now going part time for an associate’s degree in accounting. Before taking the time off, I was a different school for a bachelor’s degree in a very different field (I was pre-med there). As a result of some classes transferring, I’m still a good portion into my associate’s degree even though I’m part time.

    Now I’m starting to look into making a resume to start applying for internships. My problem is that I’ve only had 3 jobs in my life – two of them were seasonal, one I had to leave due to the medical issues, and none of them were even close to being related to accounting, so I’m really not sure how I would include them even though I’m sure I probably should since they’re the only experience I have.

    They were as follows:
    A costume assistant at a haunted theme park (senior year of high school)
    Working with at my mom and aunt’s work getting documents ready for scanning – pulling staples out of papers, unfolding things, taping things down, etc (spring of senior year through summer, then for a little while when I came home on medical leave the following spring)
    A councilor at a summer camp (last summer)

    I’m really not sure what to do with them if I put them on a resume. The only experience I have that could be considered relevant is that this past fall my school started a drama club (I’m one of the founding members) and I’m the treasurer. The club adviser is keeping me on as treasurer this coming fall since she knows I’m reliable and really want the club to succeed (I was very into drama club in high school as well, although never on the board).

    1. Julie*

      All your experience is relevant at the beginning of your career life! Try to focus on any accomplishments during any of these roles. A lot of resume writing is making the details seems a little glossier (while being 100% truthful). If you can I’d see if you can do any low-level accounting tasks on a volunteer basis too to add to your resume. But don’t sweat it. No one has years of experience going into an internship!

      1. Confused College Student*

        Thank you for the advice! I’m definitely going to try to look into the volunteer stuff I can try. Not sure where I’d look for that though.

    2. Lil Fidget*

      The councilor one is your best bet here I think – shows at least that you are reliable and there are many skills involved in camp counseling that are potentially transferable (leadership, people skills, responsibility). But I would be looking into volunteering to have at least one related activity on your resume if possible. Even if it’s just volunteering for a conference related to the field you want to enter, or something; these things still count when you’re just starting out. The one where you work for your mom I might leave off – they’re going to assume you weren’t held to the same standards of an employee, and you don’t want them to question your judgement in including something like that.

      You can also highlight your coursework most strongly on a resume application – any classes you took is relevant.

      1. Confused College Student*

        I didn’t work for my mom. I just worked at the same place she did. She’s on one of the bottom rungs there in a different department (it’s a dead end job that she took so she could be home with my sister and I during the day when we were little and after school when we got older). My aunt was a sort team lead person, but again she really didn’t have any say beyond telling us (all the preppers) what the manager told her needed to get done first. I’m not related to the manager who supervised me at all.

    3. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      I think in your case I would just have one “Experience” section and organize your jobs reverse-chronologically (so, most recent first), rather than the “Accounting Experience” and “Other Experience” sections you might have a few years down the line. I agree with Julie that all of it is potentially relevant. As she said, focus on accomplishments – what did you do that set you apart from what a mediocre employee would have done in the position? Your cover letter where you explain why you’re interested in this particular internship will be a place to impress employers, too.

      Also, at this point in your career, your resume should almost certainly only be one page. Don’t pad it with extra details.

      1. Confused College Student*

        Thank you! I definitely won’t be going over one page. I’ve been lurking around this blog since about February now, so I have learned that much. I’m so grateful I found this blog. It’s definitely really helpful (both Allison and everyone in the comments) and I’m sure it’s going to be even more so now as I start getting into the work world.

    4. kmb*

      For your internship, are you part of an internship program? I did co-op while getting a BFA in Visual Art, and they had super helpful advisors who could provide help with tailoring resumes and cover letters (not a lot of art-related opportunities, but I did feel fully prepped to look for work after I was done).

      Any organizational things or attention to detail things would, I imagine, transfer over – so I would agree with other commenters — say what your experience was, work / volunteer, and then talk about specifically what skills you demonstrated that are relevant to the roles you are applying for, and use their words if you can.

  167. NonSequitor*

    I try to be a good person, but sometimes I’m just a drama queen. I’ve had a unique experience at the place I work. To put it simply, I have been both incredibly praised and incredibly “the opposite of praised” at my company over the past 5 years. I’ve stayed because despite the confusing back and forth, the job pays well, my boss is a good person (if not a straightforward one) and a few other reasons that just make sense to me. Recently, one of my peers — who was put on the fast track ahead of me — appears to have hit a rough patch with our supervisors. And while I have nothing against her personally, her negative experience has put me in a positive light. I’m a little gleeful about it. I don’t know exactly what happened as it came up randomly in a conversation and I didn’t press for details. But, part of me wants to poke around a little to find out. I’ve managed to ignore my desire for gossip so far. But, if y’all are open to it, I wouldn’t mind a little encouragement (tough talk) to stay on the straight and narrow and avoid the drama llama.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Haha don’t worry too much about how you feel, just make sure your actions are in line with what you want in terms of professionalism and integrity. Give yourself a pass if someone you dislike is accidentally making you look better and you’re not super sorry for them. If you start gossiping it’s just likely to hurt *you* when it comes back around.

      1. NonSequitor*

        Thanks! I did not initiate the conversation about my colleague (and actually was surprised to hear that someone wasn’t happy with her), but I am proud of myself for not asking any follow-up questions at the time to try and get more dirt. BUT I WANT TO!

  168. laylaaaaaaaah*

    I got a job in a HR department a couple of months ago, and everything seemed to be going okay at first. Then I decided to try to get some workplaced-based help/accommodations for my ADHD. So I emailed our organisation’s Occupational Health provider to ask what help was available, and if they could anonymise my info so that my manager (who signs off on all the Occupational Health invoices, which all have employee names on them) wouldn’t find out.

    So… they called me. In front of my boss, who overheard a large part of the conversation. He then pulled me aside and kept saying I didn’t have to disclose anything specific to him- which I don’t! I legally don’t!- but he was there for me, whatever it was. But when I disclosed my ADHD, his tone changed and he started saying how I could get in trouble for ‘hiding’ something from him that I ‘knew’ was going to affect my job.

    He is now instigating a disciplinary process that could get me fired, based on errors such as:

    -a very, very minor admin mistake that I made just after I started (forgetting to file a particular email in the right folder)
    -a meeting I did not schedule for next week, because there is literally no one in our organisation who can currently chair it
    -another minor admin error that was written into the process guide that my boss himself created, and which I was following religiously (one of his reasons for instigating the disciplinary process is that I’m ‘not following procedure’)

    He also keeps asking me what I need r.e. accommodations, then kicking up a stink when I do ask for stuff and saying it’s ‘unfair’ to the rest of the team.

    My question is, how do I fight back? We’re getting an assistant in July, and I’m convinced that if I can hold out til then, I can get on with the less admin-y parts of my job- the ones I’m actually good at- and keep going until something else opens up for me. I don’t want to leave just yet, because my last (highly toxic) job ended after six months, and I don’t want to look irresponsible/unreliable.

    1. H.C.*

      If you haven’t started already, document everything. And you may want to consult an employment lawyer (some will offer an initial consultation for free) to see if your boss/org has run afoul of ADA regulations.

    2. Reba*

      Yikes, well, you have learned some important things about your boss. Aside from kind of botching the call, is HR generally helpful/competent here? If so I’d go back to them and let them know what’s going on: basically, your boss is hounding you about a medical condition. Do keep documentation, and maybe slow down asks for accommodations–it kind of sounds like this has come up multiple times (“keeps asking…”) and even if it’s Boss who brings it up, you now know that he is not safe to talk to this about UNTIL you have a real plan in place (i.e. ADA process) that protects you as much as possible.

      On the other hand, if you have known your boss to be reasonable otherwise, maybe a checking in talk where you say “I have noticed that you seem to have taken a hard line on minor mistakes since I told you about ADHD. Mix ups and errors are pretty common in the early days of a job, and I feel I have been getting into the swing of things and improving. Can you tell me about what you’re seeing in my performance?” But ugh I don’t think he’ll be good with this, based on what you’ve said here.

      Good luck! Keep us posted.

      1. Reba*

        Oh dear I just realized you are IN the HR department…. can you go back to the Occ Health person, or who else might be an option?

        1. laylaaaaah*

          Thanks for the advice + sympathy! I’ve spoken to Occ Health again, and they’ve compiled a more definitive list of accommodations in a letter to my boss (and also stressing the need for him to comply with equalities legislation, etc, and affirming that they think I am suitable for the role). I’ve got a meeting booked in with boss and a (hopefully relatively impartial) different member of the HR team for the end of the week to discuss where he thinks I’m going wrong and put a plan in place based on the OH letter; in the meantime I’m putting together an audit trail. Fingers crossed it works!

    3. Bobstinacy*

      This is why I don’t disclose my ADHD at work any more – suddenly normal mistakes are seen as being ‘symptoms’ and I’m reframed as a problem employee that needs babysitting.

      I’m so sorry that your boss is being a jerk. I don’t think there’s much you can do besides record the ablist things he says and going over his head :/

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      This is only tangentially related, but you should always feel free to tell someone who is returning your call if it is not convenient to speak at that moment. If you didn’t want to have the Occupational Health convo in front of your boss, it would have been *perfectly okay* for you, when Occupational Health called, to say something like “I’m afraid I’m not available right now. Can I call you back later today? What would be a good time for you?”

      1. laylaaaaah*

        Yeah, that would definitely have been a much better idea; I was a bit thrown because I was expecting a call from them about a different invoicing issue, but then she segued straight into the mental health thing and it was like ‘oh! okay, that’s…okay’. I definitely need to learn how to gently push back on things more often!

  169. YetAnotherFed*

    Grr. Finally talked to the screaming dude in the next office to me out in the common hallway. He says that it’s not him making the noise but I think that he’s lying because the guy in the other office next to him (so two doors down the hall from me) has told me otherwise. So I was calm and kept on reiterating in response to his saying that it wasn’t him that it’s unprofessional and distracting to hear screaming and yelling while someone is on the phone and if next-door dude knows who it is, he should let me know who’s screaming and yelling. The fun of working in a building built by the lowest bidder. And now I’m further irritated that he’s lying to me.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Can you approach him in the moment he’s doing it? He may not be aware of it, or he may be lying, but if you can stand in his doorway and signal, now that you’ve brought it up once, you’ve paved the way. It may take more than once to re-train him but it can be done!

  170. wrumqvem*

    Has anyone else seen an increase in non-career LinkedIn messages? In the past month, I’ve gotten messages from a financial planner, a real estate agent, a wellness clinic, & a roofer. Is someone out there recommending this approach?

  171. DrWombat*

    New job is going well, I’ve been here about 5 weeks now! I’ve arrived during a time where we are short on people and really busy, so I’m working fairly long days most days and we are alternating who gets weekends off until more people are hired (we have one for sure starting in June, another in July, and maybe more interns this fall). It’s exhausting getting used to working 5 hours of demanding physical labor and then sitting down to do data entry, etc, but I am slowly building up stamina.

    Question for AAM readers – how long did it take you to feel like you’d gotten the hang of your job? I’ve been here 5 weeks and I feel like I should be more on top of things than I am. It’s a real gear shift from what my PhD was in, this is a lot more applied and I also went from almost zero exercise to 5+ hours/day, so I know part of it is that I just don’t have the muscles yet, but I feel like with a PhD, I should have more of a hang than I already do, though my boss and coworkers seem to think I’m doing ok.

    Also, related to the contractor with celiac question last week, I got glutened by something this weekend and spent the week apologizing for how often I had to duck out to the bathroom and for how long I’d spend there because it was happening a lot. I know some of my worries re getting the hang of stuff are caused by the anxiety spike and brain fog I tend to get when glutened, but I’ve also just been exhausted because it’s been hard to keep food in me long enough to be absorbed. Yesterday the migraine was so bad I had to leave early and lie on the couch all evening. I’m normally good at just pushing through, but this week sucked.

    1. AeroEngineer*

      I think it is around 3 months before I feel like I have the hang of the basics, and 6 months before I feel like I really can own what I am doing.

      Education is useful, but as you say, your work is way more applied and more exercise, so you will still need to build up your skills like everyone else. 5 weeks is nothing in the grand scheme of things, so cut yourself some slack :).

    2. WellRed*

      PhD do not automatically make you instantly know everything! (I mean this kindly). Give yourself time. Also, once you get fully acclimated to the physical part, it will help.

    3. NonSequitor*

      When I first entered the workforce, my mom told me:
      3 months before you stop feeling like an idiot
      6 months when you start to get the hang of things
      1 year when you really know stuff

      1. WolfPack Inspirer*

        This is what I tell my staff too. They always brush me off and say that’s way too long and they’ll be settled before then, and then at about a year in they all come back and say that I really was right after all.

  172. Reba*

    YAY: I’m applying for jobs!

    BOO: desired salary boxes requiring input…
    especially for the position for which they have made their own special, unusual title that makes it difficult to find comparanda.

  173. NoWayJose617*

    On 3/23 I commented on the open thread about a data entry temp with carpal tunnel. Here’s my update:

    Temp is slow as molasses going uphill on a frigid day. This disqualifies them from the customer service responsibilities of Unit B, but Temp is able to do some of the close out stuff. Unfortunately it’s only about 5% of that unit’s work.
    They have been primarily in Unit A, which is about 75% data entry. The 25% that isn’t data entry is preparation work, and their lack of speed make them a hindrance because the rest of the staff has to wait for them to finish. Temp will start step 1 in one order, and someone else will have completed steps 1, 2, and 3 in less time (for a larger order.) The work in that unit isn’t complicated and we’ve tutored Temp in working efficiently, but Temp is just sloooooow.
    Temp can provide customer service coverage in Unit C, but can’t be there at peak hours.

    Six. More. Weeks.

    Oh, and we also learned that Temp actually started at the main office months before they came here. Yes, the main office sent Temp here because they obviously weren’t productive there either. Either they think we can draw blood from a stone, or they think that low of us. I’m going with the latter.

    I have other, very productive star temps who have been here for years at the same salary yet can’t get permanent spots because they’re not in the main office, nor can they get contracts longer than three months. Once one of them learned of the other’s nine-month contract, I could read “I have to get out of here” from her facial expressions.

    Sometimes you just have to let it burn.

    1. Lindsay J*

      I missed the first thread, so I’m guessing there is a reason you can’t send the temp back to the agency and get another one?

      I thought that was part of the point of using temps, that you could replace them more easily.

      1. NoWayJose617*

        I wrote in one of the comments there that TPTB here don’t want to fire temps because the main office doesn’t always send back a replacement, plus there’s the “it could always be worse” lecture. Which is sad because it’s true.

        In the last five years, we’ve had about 30 temps from this agency. There were four temps that I would hire again. I had four that I begged to fire for months because of their behavior and lack of productivity, including:

        1. Lied on her time sheet (wrote in days when she was absent), willfully unproductive when I wasn’t there, talked trash on the phone about us to her family in Spanish. I found out from multiple staff (and verified in the system) that when I announced i was taking a day off, she watched movies on her tablet her entire shift.) This went on for months until she found another job.
        2. Became verbally abusive to another temp (including disability harassment) as well as willfully unproductive. This went on for months until she complained about my subordinate to my boss. Apparently respecting chain of command is much more important than respecting your coworkers.
        3. Another one who was willfully unproductive and insubordination. She thought she was her own boss here. This went on from her first day until she was reassigned to another manager, and finally fired before a managerial switch.
        4. Suddenly said he was switching from full-time to part time, then cut down his hours further. Frequently took off with little or no notice. Worked extremely slowly with many errors. Fell asleep at his work station every shift.

        I begged for replacements for each of these for months. I’m not even going to bother with the other slowpoke in Unit B who we caught stealing co-workers’ food from the fridge and laughed it off.

        If I ever get an input in the future, I’d choose any agency besides this one. Which will hopefully be soon because I’m sick of this B.S.

  174. WhyWhyWhy*

    I’m in a well-paid job that I hate and have been applying and interviewing and doing something really weird. When they ask about my salary expectations I keep lowballing myself.

    I’ve been looking for a while and know that I may need to take a big pay cut to find my next job, but the last phone screening I had, I actually told them I’m currently making [a number $10K less than I actually make].

    I can’t figure out how to handle salary expectations when really my expectation is a HUGE range. And I don’t want to say I’d work for $50K when the job actually pays $80K and then I look like an idiot.

    1. WellRed*

      First of all, don’t tell them what you are currently making unless you are in some field or country where thats required. Second, is it that you are overly afraid of NOT getting jobs if you shoot too high? Do you have imposter syndrome?

      1. WhyWhyWhy*

        You are totally right, thank you for the smack on the head – I will absolutely stop talking about how much I am making now.

        I think I’m afraid of several things – not getting jobs if I name a price close to what I’m making now (which I think has already happened), being passed over because naming a lower range would look like I don’t have the experience, or just looking completely clueless if I name my actual range – which is huge since in reality I would work for a lot less if there were other huge benefits and loved the work.

        1. misspiggy*

          You don’t have to be honest about the lower end of your range. I’d hope that you could ask about their range first, using some of the scripts that Alison supplies on the site.

  175. Environmental Compliance*

    Story time!

    A couple days ago I took the afternoon off to go pick up Hubs from the airport, and had a little extra time so I swung by my old office on the way home.

    I had a blanket that my mother had knitted as a wedding present on my office chair at that job, and the two jobs before that. It’s perfectly lap size and just warm enough for arctic level offices. It has a giant label on it that says LOVE, MOM. In Old Job, there were 6 of us. 3 of us had a knitting lunch in the conference room a few times a month. The office was cold enough that I would spend a decent amount of time in that blanket. In short – everyone knew it was My Blanket. BossLady even asked me if I made it, and we had a short talk on no, mom made it, etc etc.

    When I left Old Job 2 months ago or so, I couldn’t find the blanket. Was upset. Searched house, garage, both cars. Figured someone had nicked it when I was loading up my car on my last day (had to set stuff on sidewalk then drive car over, it’s a public building, lots of foot traffic). In the meantime, BossLady had called me/texted me a few times about stuff she could have easily figured out herself, and I had mentioned in at least one of those that my blanket had gone missing.

    SO: go to office to say hello to a couple old coworkers. One just had a new grandbaby, who is super cute. One asked me in passing (after a giant hug) if I was here to get my blanket. My blanket? Oh yeah, BossLady has been curled up in it since you left. She said she messaged you about it?

    *record scratch*

    No. No, she didn’t. Then after Coworker calls BossLady out and pointedly said something about the Blanket, she runs back into her office and sheepishly hands it to me, with something about how well she would’ve kept it if it hadn’t said LOVE, MOM on it. Uh, yeah, okay. Coworker looks horrified after BossLady walks away and says if she had known that BossLady hadn’t actually messaged me she would have called me.

    This is the same BossLady that once demanded that I knit her a king sized blanket after I had brought in a baby blanket I made to show both Knitting Coworkers because they like that stuff and one had a couple grandbabies on the way.

    Giant WTF moment, and glad I visited the old office.

    (Blanket is now safely on my lap at New Office, where as far as I know there are no blanket thieves.)

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        When she demanded her multicolor, partial lacework king size blanket with knit appliques, I told her she couldn’t afford me. LOL it can’t be that much, EC, like what, $150? Uhm, the yarn alone would be more than that. How about no?

        1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          I love hearing stories like this!

          I’ve also had to spell out how much a knitting project costs for people. This is usually followed by a comment along the lines of “Knitting is my hobby. If I got paid for it, it would be work, and I don’t want my hobby to be work.”

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I’ve gone away from commissioned items just for that. I love designing patterns, and I do sell my designs, but I will do very, very few commissions. Right now I have a technically commissioned but really is a gift knit quilt in bulky yarn on the needles for my grandma, and a worsted weight shawl asked for by my MIL (who, separate story, thought it’d be done in like 2 weeks…it’s 65″ long, that’s a no).

        2. Windchime*

          So glad you found your blanket! I hope she felt ashamed for being caught red-handed.

          A lady at work was admiring my new sweater made of a linen/cotton blend and said, “Oh, you could probably make those for money!” I said, “Nope, nobody would pay what it’s worth.”

          I only knit for people I love, and as a gift.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            With her it’s hard to tell. She’s a little crazy. But I hope that the staff members give her a little crap about it. She had a tendency to steal pens, previously.

            For a lot of knitters, knitting is like sex – if I like you, it’s free, otherwise you couldn’t pay me enough.

  176. Not-so-recent grad*

    I’m looking for advice on explaining a period of employment outside my field in a job interview.

    For example, after finishing grad school, I ended up working in retail for a year while trying to find a permanent position. (I was also planning my wedding and had just moved.) I have other experience so I don’t really need, or want, the retail job on my resume, but then it looks like I had a year-long gap.

    What do I say when someone asks what I’ve been doing since finishing grad school? If I said “Oh, I worked in retail… I had just moved and was getting married, but still managed to work on a couple side projects,” is that just introducing unnecessary personal information? And does it sound like I might be more concerned about personal stuff than my career? Or should I dodge the question, say I took a little time off, and mention a couple side projects I was also doing (but it might seem weird that that’s all I did for a year)?

    I don’t want to imply that working in retail is something to be ashamed of, or that people should be embarrassed having it on their resume. But I am curious: is working a random job like this a concern to future employers? And how much should I say about it?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I’d probably say like, “After I moved I was looking for the right opportunity in my field, and I was able to be choosy about it. I had a retail job in the meantime where I learned X and Y skills. During that time I also took on side project Z.” Emphasis on you were looking for a job just like this one your interviewing now, and you finally found it – no need to emphasize the wedding, I think.

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I think you should leave out the “just moved and was getting married” part, but mentioning retail and side projects should be fine. You can also say that you were working retail until you found the right position in your field, and then talk about why the position you’re interviewing for excited you. Retail gave me a ton of answers for “Tell me about a time when you had a difficult client/customer.” Oh boy, can I…

  177. Normally a Lurker*

    A job I’m in an adjacent industry to, though have quite a bit of knowledge opened up and I”m in the process of applying. They want a writing sample, and my thesis is actually perfect for it. Except it’s a thesis and 100- pages long.

    My question is -how long is a writing sample?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      If they don’t specify length, I can’t imagine they’d want to read longer than a page.

      My theses all had to have something like an executive summary (1-2 pages) – could you use something like that, perhaps?

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yep I’d say 1-2 pages is what they’re looking for. You could probably include the intro to your thesis if there’s a natural break there and just include a title like, “introduction to a report on X.” Worst option would be to send them 100 pages, that would look really out of touch with norms.

  178. Flinty*

    Excel/data question! I am trying to figure out how to organize a spreadsheet for recording the results of a phone survey. Let’s say the question is “why did you decide to come to our event” and they indicate all options that are relevant. I want my data to be conducive to creating a pivot table later where if Abby says “location and food” and Betty says “location and topic” and Chandra says “food” I can make a pivot table that will look like this:
    Food: 2
    Location: 2
    Topic: 1

    But I can’t quite wrap my head around how to do this. Help?

    1. beanie beans*

      Oh man, I am going to stink at writing this out but I think this would work:
      Data would look like this in columns and rows:
      Responses/Food/Location/Topic
      Person 1/1/0/1
      Person 2/0/1/1
      Person 3/1/0/1

      And then when you make the pivot table, Response would go in the rows and food/location/topic would each go in Values. I hope that makes sense!

      1. beanie beans*

        This will put each person as individual rows, but you can either group them, or have column totals to summarize.

    2. Student*

      Mainly, you just don’t need a pivot table for this. Depending on how you format it, you can sum up the number of responses (where each check box is a 1 and empty box is a zero), or make a count of the number of “true” answers if you organize each by true/false, or such. Pivot tables are overboard unless there’s a lot more depth to the survey than you’re conveying here.

    3. Thlayli*

      As pp said it’s easier to do without a pivot table. Column A is names, B-X are responses. Put a 1 in to show that a responded selected an option, and then sum each column at the bottom.

      However if you really want to do a pivot table, there are tons of YouTube videos and other excel resources online.

  179. LadyMountaineer*

    My coworker can’t deliver bad news and it is driving me bananacrackers. I’m a data architect and he’s a report writer. (I’ll call him RW.) RW’s M.O. (from what I’ve observed) has been to glob onto the new female in the office (in this case, me) and then makes his case for why you should be best friends. He’s fun (truly!) He’s actually a talented coder! He has lots of great qualities. They all go out-the-window the minute that he can’t be a hero and deliver a perfect report. The minute that the data is in freeform text or logged in a weird way and he has to talk to the customer about it he throws multiple emotionally draining temper tantrums that sink multiple hours a day until someone steps in and agrees to tell the customer “hey – you know that report you wanted? The data is a little weird. Is it okay to give you what we have knowing you might miss some things but it will get you to the bulk of what you want?” Usually they respond “that would be awesome – right now we have no insight into our problem!” We are blessed to work with very reasonable people.

    Recently, a request came into my queue on accident. I didn’t catch it and it involved a patient safety issue. I escalated it to RW. I sent multiple emails apologizing, explained to the customer that he had other items in the queue that he was just finishing up and she should hear from RW shortly. Then, I checked with RW to make sure that he knew what happened. The customer heard nothing from RW and reached out to me. RW’s manager asked the department admin to check in. This was the email that followed:
    “I talked with RW on this one. – He is aware of it, and if he has time he will work on it today or Tuesday. He is out Wednesday. This ticket is a priority one because it was a procrastination on someone’s part made it an emergency, Priority 1 when the client called to follow up. The content of the ticket does not make it a priority 1. RW had been working on The Project last week and was unable to get to it.”

    Why could he not have said “I’m on a project this week I’ll get to it next week?” I relayed to the customer that it is on RW’s work plan for next week and she was 100% fine with that. Instead I get long-delayed, second-hand passive-aggressive emails. Ugh!

    Delivering bad news causes RW so much anxiety that he will show up at my desk and talk to me for HOURS about it. If he can’t convince me to deliver the bad news he will show up for hours the next day. If I tell him I’m in the middle of something and he can’t keep coming to my desk he schedules a meeting. When he has an audience for that meeting he (literally) screams at me until I relent and deliver the bad news. But I haven’t been working the problem so the conversation can get really awkward for me and it is a problem that really doesn’t need me.

    I just don’t want to do this anymore. We report to different people and I hate to toss this back on his manager but I am just done. It’s just too much. It is impacting my ability to do my job. It’s taking a great working environment and making it into a frustrating one to the point where I’m considering going elsewhere despite everything else being quite wonderful. RW is untouchable due to his tenure and tribal knowledge. He’s not going anywhere and neither are his tantrums. I’m just burnt on this. Any advice fellow AAMs?

    1. fposte*

      Have you asked your manager about this? Even if RW’s untouchable, it seems like you spending hours placating him isn’t a good use of your time, and it would be useful to know if you have her blessing to refuse to attend meetings that are just to berate you into doing somebody else’s work.

      I don’t know if you’ve done this already, but if you haven’t, I might name the elephant in the room, albeit tactfully: “RW, I know you don’t like this kind of task. But that’s not what I’m paid to work on, and I need to use my time for what Teapots Co. expects. So I’m ending this conversation to do that work now.”

      If there’s any chance you can refuse the meetings, do that. Who is the audience for those meetings? I also think it’s reasonable to consider walking away from a situation where you’re being screamed at by somebody with no direct authority over you–are there people involved who would complicate that?

      But mostly you need to find out what kind of backing you have from your manager if you start drawing firmer lines with RW. If the answer is “none,” then that’s really bad news for you, but if she’s going to give you some, you have some options here that might help you.

    2. Thlayli*

      It sounds like he has some sort of severe psychological issue about this. But it’s not in any way your job to spend hours calming him down or listening to him scream at you (wtf).

      As fposte says, talk to your manager first. Explain to her how bad the situation really is. She should then address it with his manager.

  180. Oy vey!*

    I’ve been on a lot of search committees, but the last one was about 3 years ago. I’m on a hiring team now and holy frijole, what terrible resume advice are people following, creating such a headache for me!
    1. I haven’t seen an “objective” on a resume in forever, but all of a sudden resumes now start with a “Summary.” “I’m an innovative llama breeder with the can-do spirit and synergistic energies you need! I specialize in cross breeding and certification” and blah blah blah for a paragraph, none of which is tailored for my position- which, by the way is for a llama wrangler, so all that breeder info is just a waste of time.
    2. Next up is “Specialized Skills.” Now, my brother is in IT. His resume has such a section and he lists programming languages and coding mastery and such. That makes sense. But llama wrangling does not have such clear cut skills. Instead, people seem to be listing every single job responsibility they had (including, and I’m not making this up, someone listing they turned the lights on in the morning and off in the evening) and not telling me with which job the skill is associated. So I get things like “Wrangled 15 llamas” but I don’t know if that’s in the recent position (which would be great) or if it was back as a grad assistant 15 years ago (not as great).
    3. And this Specialized Skill list can go on for pages! Followed by a bulleted list of positions, but often without start and end dates.
    4. The Education section is buried somewhere in there, but weirdly, a good number are not telling me what their degree is in. It just says “Bachelor of Arts, Knope University.”
    We were inundated with applications this round and a shocking number are making me work way too hard to figure out if they meet the qualifications. This is a professional position with masters-level accreditation standards; I’m frankly shocked people haven’t considered the usability of their resumes. And don’t get me started on their cover letters…

    1. PB*

      I know the feeling. I was on a search committee a little while ago, and a shocking number of the resumes listed nothing under the jobs. As in, they’d list the job title, employer, and dates, and literally nothing else. No accomplishments, no sense of their responsibilities.

      Some of it I hear from other committee members. One of our candidates was criticized for using “I” too much in her cover letter, and a concern was voiced about how well she’d work in a team. Well, of course you use “I” in a cover letter! You’re applying as an individual, not as a team. Our chair then started going on about how when they were in school, they were required to write a cover letter without a single use of the word “I”. Why?? This seems like such bad advice.

      1. Julianne*

        Same! We recently interviewed a candidate whose resume was really oddly formatted (the spacing and alignment were extremely inconsistent), and only had job title, employer, and years listed. No accomplishments, no duties, even. We only brought her in because three current employees recommended her highly; my boss actually said to the committee (when the candidate wasn’t there) that there was no way she’d have gotten a callback otherwise.

    2. NaoNao*

      Oh hm! I don’t listen my degree major in my degrees, because it’s not pertinent to my career path, only very tangentially related. I’ve certainly been asked on every friggin’ ATS form ever (including ones that want an “area of study” for high school, in which I’m always tempted to put “smokin’ in the boys’ room”) but I haven’t had a job ask me outright during an interview “what was your degree in?”

      1. Oy vey!*

        And I’m sure that’s the norm for your field. But in mine, we ask specifically for degrees in X or Y. Don’t make me open up your transcript and dig up that info.

  181. Melissa*

    I start a new nonprofit job next week and it’s my first time going into a role where I’m managing people instead of being promoted into one, so it’s all people I’ve never met and who know more about their work than I do. From what I understand they are looking forward to meeting me and eager for leadership. Tips on not putting my foot in my mouth?

    1. MelMel Melissa*

      Commenting to this to note that I’ll future post as MelMel Melissa bc generic “Melissa” on these posts might be confusing!

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      One thing that really endeared me to a new boss who was learning the ropes was that she tried to do EVERYTHING. She really listened to people showing her how to do different tasks, and she made her way around the entire department. This meant that she
      1. Met everyone and got to know them.
      2. Learned at least a little bit about everything and how work flowed from one person to another.
      I think in the beginning, listen and observe. If you see opportunities to improve processes, hold onto them until you’ve been there for a bit. Good luck!

  182. JScotch*

    I started a new job a few months ago after several years in a toxic environment. One of the best parts of my new job is that it’s at a college and I am actively involved in student programs – I have had previous jobs at colleges but I essentially never came near students.

    Anyway, today is commencement day and it’s a joy to be here.

    1. WellRed*

      I loved worked at the University bookstore at commencement time. We had the caps and gowns and then we ran a little table with logo-ed stuff and snacks at commencement and help with the last minute caps and gowns and faculty robing. I loved it! The energy was so joyous!

    2. Melissa*

      I worked at a university many moons ago and to this day I would love to go back into that environment. I wish you the best!

  183. Sevenrider*

    Recently a situation came up when I was traveling for work. One of my co-workers became ill right before our return flight home and was hospitalized. I was the only other person from our company who was there and accompanied her to the hospital. After speaking with her husband on the phone who assured me he was on his way, I left the hospital and caught my flight home. I have two 2 cats who had been alone for two nights already. I live alone and have no one nearby to check on them. It turns out her husband didn’t actually start traveling until late the next day (driving 9 hours instead of flying). If I had know her husband was not going to arrive that same day and she would have been alone an entire night and day in a strange hospital, I would have stayed one more night. Some people in my office are furious with me for leaving her and returning home. It seems she may have had a seizure or mild stroke but this was not known when I left the hospital. She was conscious and aware of where she was, however she could not communicate to me all the doctors had told her. Not being an immediate relative, the doctors were reluctant to provide me with information, only that she was stable and not in immediate danger. Since this, I have endured snide comments and remarks. My manager has twice spoken to the most serious offenders but nothing has changed. It has been about a month and the other employee suffered no lasting effects and has returned to work. She says she doesn’t think I needed to stay with her and does not hold anything against me. I am being portrayed as being selfish and uncaring by other co-workers. Does anyone think I should have stayed?

    1. NoWayJose617*

      No. You were told her husband was on his way. You also have your own family to be with.

    2. WellRed*

      What, realistically, could you have done for her? Even if you should have stayed (no need), it’s been a month and they should drop it. Why hasn’t the coworker in question shut it down?

    3. NicoleK*

      No. You’re not an immediate relative, you’re not a medical doctor, and husband said he was on his way. My response might be different if you and the ill coworker were real close. I wouldn’t want any of my current coworkers to spend the night with me at the hospital. I’m just not that close with them and wouldn’t want them to see me in my vulnerable condition.

    4. Rick Tq*

      you are lucky the hospital would even talk to you since you aren’t family or her spouse.

      No, you didn’t need to stay. You weren’t responsible for her husband’s travel arrangements and I’m assuming he drove so he could bring his wife any required items (clothing, etc) and to make for an easier trip home.

      Your snotty cow-orkers are WAY out of line.

    5. PB*

      No. You did nothing wrong, and it sounds like your manager and hospitalized coworker agree with you. Your other coworkers are being inappropriate and mean.

    6. Technical_Kitty*

      Your workplace sounds ridiculous, or at least your co-workers sound ridiculous. Once you were told husband was on his way leaving is just fine. You can make no medical decisions for her and are not her doctor. Your coworkers are jerks and need to shut it.

      I say the last bit as someone who travels for work, lives alone and often leaves her two kitties overnight. I delay returning home for very few reasons.

    8. Thlayli*

      Do the bitchy coworkers know he told you he was on his way? If not, make that clear and see if that changes anything. He’s the asshole here, not you. They would be out of line even if he hadn’t told you this, but the fact that he did tell you he was on his way makes the whole thing just bizarre. Perhaps your coworker could help In ensuring they know that her husband said he was on his way.

      If they already know this, then you are being outright bullied. It’s time to escalate.

  184. Mimmy*

    What’s the best way to ask about growth / advancement opportunities at your job?

    I’m a part-time instructor for a state-run rehabilitation program that serves people with a specific disability. Unlike the other instructors, my discipline does not require specific credentials (in fact, they hired me despite having zero experience or training in teaching/instruction!). While I do enjoy my students and I recognize that what I’m teaching is extremely valuable, I find it very boring at times and really do not foresee myself doing this specific thing long-term, at least not on a full-time or near-full-time basis (I’ve been there since March of last year). Those who know me may say that this is the least stressful job I’ll ever have and that I should enjoy it. No. I have skills I want to use and I have a rabid hunger for inquiring additional knowledge to use in the future.

    Right now, my job classification entails a strict limit on the number of hours I can work per fiscal year and I get no benefits. Earlier this week, my supervisor asked if I wanted to move up to a classification that entails more hours plus some benefits. I’m really on the fence about this. I worry that I’ll burn out if I do this 4 days a week (as opposed to 3 days per week currently). A part of me wants to use this as a negotiating opportunity: I’ll take the bump in hours if I could have the opportunity to expand my role. Would this be an appropriate approach?

    (Honestly, I want to move on, but I think I’ve fallen into the trap of becoming so well-liked that I’d feel horrible if I left.)

  185. Poniez R Us*

    You guys…I want to die under a rock. I made a joke about white male privilege in an all male led organization and it did not go well. I pissed off possibly the most well liked male coworker. A lot of us were into the joke but he was not and I was the one leading the joke about how we have so many white guys in the offices and don’t need another one. He definitely expressed his distaste for my distasteful joke. It was so stupid. I hate when people say dumb things about my ethnicity. It was a tough lesson learned. It was so awkward and at one point I felt I could not dig myself out. I apologized to him and he accepted it. The last person that got him upset was fired a couple months later. She was not a nice person to begin with but now I am scared.

    1. Nacho*

      If you apologized already, then there’s really nothing more you can do. I certainly wouldn’t apologize again, or do anything else to draw attention to it. Maybe hold your tongue on any race or gender related political opinions for a while to be safe, or at the very least make a conscious effort not to say anything that could be considered distasteful. If he’s just a coworker though, I doubt he has the power to fire you, and hopefully he took your apology at face value and you’re scared for no reason.

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        I agree… mostly.

        Maybe hold your tongue on any race or gender related political opinions for a while to be safe, ”

        should probably be…

        “hold your tongue on any race or gender related political topics, unless your core job directly relates to race or gender related political topics. ”

        Yeah, I’m of the opinion that race and gender jokes shouldn’t be a thing no matter what the race or gender you’re joking about.

    2. Thlayli*

      There’s not much you can do. You made a racist and sexist joke and have apologised. Now you just have to hope it blows over.

  186. Ann O.*

    I’m so frustrated with a co-worker. I’ve been doing a lot of unexpected rewriting of their part of our shared project and having an internal debate with myself about whether it was possible I was the one wrong and the rewriting wasn’t necessary. Arguably, there was a philosophic difference in approach. But I did it because there seemed to be technical errors and that was just not something I could take a chance on it. And now the last set I did unambiguously had basic errors.

    I just don’t get it. My co-worker is an experienced writer. I don’t know why these mistakes are happening. We’re embedded, so functionally we have no manager. I haven’t hidden that there are issues, but I’m not comfortable directly throwing my co-worker under the bus (and does that ever not end up making the complainer look super unprofessional anyway?). I don’t think our acting manager really understands the scope of issues. I’ve had multiple conversations with co-worker of increasing levels of directness without any change (as an example: at our last one, I directly said “do not do thing” related to a specific issue that I am the unquestioned lead on. And yet, thing continued).

    Our working environment is chaotic and challenging. It requires being both proactive and persistent to get results. It’s a bad fit for my co-worker, and my fear is that they’ve recognized that and chosen to deal with it by checking out rather than trying to adapt.

  187. Me--Blargh!*

    My sister, who is in marketing, wants me to write blog articles for her company. Their product articles are very dull (she sent me a link — it’s a mega-dull product, haha) and she was like, “HELP ME.” She said they need a tax ID number (I assume that means an EIN) so they could set me up as a vendor. Friends said that my #SS is enough, but I don’t think that’s what she’s talking about. I’m confused by this. We’re in different states, btw.

    I know nothing about any of the accounting necessary to freelance, which is why I haven’t been doing it (and dyscalculia, which means I don’t understand the numbers). Well, I did it once for a year, and I had a tax bill even though I only made $50 a week. The rate per hour she mentioned is good, but I’m not sure I want to work for my sister, though I did do some editing for her when she was at her old job and she seemed really happy with it. I have no idea how to make that product sound exciting. I could get some clips/a resume item out of it. But I need a JOB. With insurance!

    She’s on a school trip and won’t be back until the end of the month, so I have some time to decide. The rest of the week has been just crickets and rejection.

    1. JeanB in NC*

      She needs your Social Security number so that she can issue you a 1099 at the end of the year. What she needs is a W-9 from you. You will need to report this 1099 income and you will have to pay taxes on it – most independent freelancers set aside a certain percentage of income to pay the taxes.

      1. Triple Anon*

        By “tax ID,” she could mean either a personnal SSN or a business tax ID number. You can contact your local comptroller’s office to find out which. But my hunch is that it’s the latter because she mentioned setting you up as a vendor. That implies that you need to have a registered business. If that’s the case, you’ll probably need to file a DBA (the name of your business), do whatever your state requires to go with that, and get a Tax Permit. The Tax Permit will have your business’s tax ID number on it. Depending on where you are, it can be easy or complicated, affordable or less so. And you’ll have to file quarterly taxes even when didn’t do any work that quarter. The positive side of that is that it looks more impressive on a resume and business cards, and it’s something you can grow. If you live in a place where the laws are friendly to sole proprietorships and you want to freelance, I’d recommend going that route.

        1. Me--Blargh*

          That’s pretty much what I thought. Also, I live in MO which is a hellhole and I have no idea what it’s like re sole proprietorships. I could ask the leader of my writing meetup about it. She’s a freelance copywriter.

          I don’t particularly want to freelance. I can’t do the accounting and I’m pretty sure there is no way I can make enough to afford to pay anyone. Of course all writing jobs now are freelance. Everything is contract. And low paid. It’s just my luck that the only thing I can reasonably do is something that doesn’t pay and requires me to also be good at something I can’t do (math). FML

          1. Overeducated*

            So…if it makes you feel better, I was paid by 1099 for a couple of years, and it wasn’t that bad. I used my SS# as a tax ID and multiple orgs were able to treat me as a vendor, I’d be surprised if you actually needed a registered business for this. (If you’re working for the feds you need a DUNS number but that doesn’t sound like the case.) Don’t let that hold you back from something that might be a help along the way!

            I also basically didn’t do math for it. I just took about 30-33% of what I got paid (whichever was the easier, rounder number, it wasn’t exact), stuck it in a separate bank account, and paid it out each quarter for taxes. I never underpaid. I don’t know if that sounds manageable to you, but when it’s not a complex business with a lot of deductions, it can be pretty simple.

    2. WellRed*

      If you don’t want to work for your sister, which is not the best idea even when you do, tread carefully, but it might be better than sitting around not working and maybe boost confidence AND resume. I don’t know if this is state specific, but I believe our freelancers just provide their SSN.

    3. Rick Tq*

      Your SSN is your Tax ID. That said, be very aware of the tax issues when you are an independent business. Plain language: You pay both sides of Social Security (12.4%) and Medicare (2.9%) taxes, on top of all other income taxes for your state, and you will probably need to file quarterly taxes.

    4. Kiwi*

      Could you ask your sister to do the math/accounting side of it for you? It might be easy for her, and if that’s the main thing that’s stopping you writing blog posts, her helping could be a win/win.

      I write about stuff people think is dull. Part of the trick is to figure what it lets people achieve. How does it make their lives better? Simpler? Safer? Easier? People get excited reading how things will save them time or let them do something better.

      To me, this sounds like a professional writing gig to put on your resume. Worth doing, if you can. Good luck!

  188. Mimmy*

    In addition to the quandary I have with my current job (see post upthread), I am beginning to think about a conference that I’m attending next month. It’s a huge leap outside of my comfort zone (going alone to an unfamiliar city), but it was described to me by a friend as a “networking goldmine” because the conference usually has hundreds of attendees. So, I could use some advice in making the most out of this rare opportunity.

    I know that workshops and exhibit halls are a good time to meet people. Also, I’m going to start thinking about the specific areas of the field that I want to target – I have a few areas in mind and should probably try to narrow it down.

    What I’m stumped on is what exactly I should say. I am not very strong in the whole “tell me about yourself” thing. I really want to get an idea of the range of career options in this field, so I’m hoping to meet people who have shared interests and hear about their roles so that I can begin to generate some ideas. I certainly would love to just have interesting discussions with people too :)

    Yeah, she who is introverted and isn’t very strong at networking is attending a large conference with hundreds of people. What’s wrong with this picture? ;) ;)

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Ask questions! And then ask more questions. A lot of people like talking about themselves, so those of us who don’t can usually get away of not doing so by asking questions :)

  189. Jauntyjukebox*

    Any ideas for encouraging communication among teams in different locations? Our larger team is across multiple sites, and peooke are interested in more interactions/information sharing with each other. We’re considering things like more regular meetings across the team and using chat tools, but eager to hear any and all ideas!

    1. Triple Anon*

      You could reach out to vendors for different chat and team interaction tools and see if your team could test their products. Then you’d all be working on something together while also interacting more. The downside is that inevitably there will be differences of opinion and someone will feel wronged by the final choice of product(s). If that seems like a potential issue, you could have a smaller group test the products and only include people who will be pretty level headed about it. There are tons of products to choose from.

      Then, to get people more engaged, you can do fun things like sharing pictures of pets, photo contests, whatever seems like a fit for your team.

  190. Triple Anon*

    For those of you who work from home or somewhere else with little structure, how do you manage your time? I find that I have a good work ethic and can work tirelessly once I get started on something, but I struggle with organization and getting started on projects when I’m at home. It’s so tempting to take a nap or get distracted by all those things that just take a minute (checking social media, taking the dog out, washing the dishes, sweeping the floor, sending a text to a friend, etc). I need to get better at organizing my time, sticking to a schedule, and staying focused.

    1. Melissa*

      The best thing I did when I teleworked two days a week was set aside a separate space for my work-at-home time and stay in that space. But social media is the worst–I turned off FB alerts on my phone and it helped me immensely because I *can* close that tab for good but the phone notifications would get me to open it again.

  191. Kathy*

    Venting about summer interns time! We need another worst interns thread… So, our summer interns have started and one of them thinks that she can just… show up whenever she wants. She shows up at 7:50AM and then immediately goes into the bathroom to brush her hair for at least an hour when we start at 8AM . Then later, around 4:15PM, she goes into the bathroom again for half an hour to brush her hair for half an hour, and leaves at 4:45PM. We’re done at 5PM. My coworker had given her a project to do and she completed the first step veeeery slowly, and then when he came to outline the second step to her, she was like, “oh… well, I’m actually not going to be here tomorrow. I’m taking a month off. Boss knows.” And my coworker was taken aback and basically said something along the lines of, “well, I guess I can’t have you finish this up then…”

    I’m not her boss. My coworker, who assigns her work, is still not her boss. Our boss left for his wedding and honeymoon a couple of weeks ago and the intern disappeared like a day after he left. Our boss is the type of person that is very on top of things like this, and so we firmly believe that he would’ve told us that Intern was going to be off for a month. And… she’s still welcome to come back.

    What gets me is that this is her fourth internship. There’s no leeway for oh, well she’s obviously new to the working world, we have to cut her some slack and gently, but firmly, explain to her that work requires you to be on time, to inform not just your boss, but the people responsible for assigning you work that you’re going to be out for an extended period of time and ten minutes before you leave for this extended leave is not very appropriate. I’ve spoken to our boss about it, but at the same time, I’m in a different engineering group than Intern and Coworker, so I worried for a little while that I sounded petty. And then Coworker tried to assign me work that was meant for Intern while our boss was gone. Nooooo, dude, nooooo. I’m happy to help out when I have time, but since Boss was gone, I was acting head of my engineering department. It wasn’t like when Boss is gone, I have nothing to do! So now we’re all pissed at intern.

    1. Kathleen_A*

      I don’t think you should be particularly gentle. I mean, this is *blatant*.

    2. Rick Tq*

      Does the acting manager have the authority to terminate her, and is there an Intern Program Director you can contact? At the very least have IT disable her accounts and reset any phone passwords until Big Boss comes back and gets the report on her behavior.

      It sound like this intern has ghosted on you and shouldn’t be allowed back on site or in your systems again.

      1. Kathy*

        Right? She claimed that her parents were in town and she would be taking the month off because of that. I don’t… not believe her, because she’s here on a student visa, and graduated grad school. That’s a big enough event that parents would fly overseas for. But I’m also very skeptical because she’s already lying about working a full day. Sure, we’re all on the internet and stuff throughout the day, but as Kathleen_A said above, this is blatant.

        Boss gets back on Monday, and you make a really good point, so I think I’m going to talk to him about it from a security standpoint. We have fob access here for security reasons, and if someone took her fob because she tossed it in her room or something, we could have a potential security breech on our hands. And yeah, personally, I would just terminate the internship, but that’s not our call to make… Coworker is really only a glorified supervisor here, and we don’t have an actual program director for this.

        1. Rick Tq*

          Student Visa after graduation? She should be reported to your local immigration authorities because she isn’t in school anymore and certainly isn’t fulfilling her responsibilities as an intern.

          The Program Director I was referring to is at what ever sponsoring organization is behind the internship. I’m thinking of what ever organization provided her name in the first place.

  192. Got a case of the Mean Reds*

    So, looking for opinions/strategies on a situation. Long story in a nutshell: I share a small office with someone who, about a month 1/2 ago, very unexpectedly, got very angry and yelled at me. Why? After 4 questions about a schedule change that didn’t affect him, I tried to lighten the situation and said “Is that ok with you?” That was enough to provoke the yelling. This is not the first time, but it was enough to make me approach our manager and ask that space be found for me elsewhere in the building because this person has been hostile towards me for a year (and I also feel very uncomfortable being in the same physical space with him). She understands my request, but any change needs to be taken to our assistant director (AD) and then our director. I am asking to move to a space where there is already a desk, table, printer . . . all I need to move is a 2-drawer file cabinet and have my name assigned to the phone extension already in that space.
    Problem is, while my manager has asked the (AD), the AD has not asked our director. Apparently, the AD is waiting for “the right time” to ask. In the meantime, I shuffle a pile of my work around from place to place, making it work, but that’s getting a little old. My manager does not want to go over the head of the AD and ask the director. She has also told me I cannot say anything, either. The head of HR is aware that I’ve asked for this change, but she’s not part of this conversation (at least, not right now).

    Any thoughts from the hive mind? I understand my manager not wanting to bypass the AD, but perhaps there is another way something could be communicated? This isn’t the end of the world — I’m making it work. However, my team has noticed I’m moving around a lot and am never in my office. When I do encounter my colleague in meetings, etc., I am always polite and professional; I just don’t feel comfortable being in a physical space where I feel threatened (or feel like the smallest thing I do may set this person off). Thanks for any advice.

    1. Nacho*

      Are you not allowed to say anything to the director, or to the AD? Because it’s reasonably for your boss to say you cannot ignore the hierarchy and step on your AD’s toes, but it’s not reasonable to say that you can’t explain to the AD that this is a serious matter for you that AD doesn’t seem to be treating as such. I get the feeling AD probably thinks this is a low priority bit of busywork that can wait a few months, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to send them an email explaining why it’s not.

    2. LCL*

      AD is waiting for this all to blow over and you to go back to using your office. So AD can present to D that she has the people and personnel issues all under control. And doesn’t have to deal with the yeller. Is this a very small business? I can’t imagine my director getting involved in any office moves, except his own. And HR? For an office move?

      1. LCL*

        (almost forgot the last bit)
        Since you are moving around all the time, spend most of your time in the space that you are asking for, as long as you aren’t displacing anyone.

        1. Got a case of the Mean Reds*

          My manager would likely be absolutely furious if I went to the director myself. I work in a building that is old and was renovated in 2012 — and the director wants to approve any kind of change. So, that apparently applies to me leaving everything in my office behind except for a filing cabinet — I can’t imagine he’d care that much. However, I would like to think that he’d care about this kind of thing happening in our workplace.
          I’m going to give it another 2-3 weeks and then if nothing is happening, ask my manager what solution she has. While I’m making it work like it is, I know if I don’t keep pushing, this will be a case of “well, she obviously is fine with how things are” and I’m actually not. Thanks for the input!

  193. AR*

    Looking for job search advice–I was laid off very suddenly about six weeks ago, when the business shut down with less than a week’s notice to my coworkers and me. I have very little work experience, all in retail and customer service. I also have a BS. This is putting me in a sort of qualifications paradox. I have the qualifications for a job but they want 5 to 10 years of experience, or I’m overqualified simply by having a degree at all. I’m not getting calls, or even rejection emails. I’ve applied to everything from part-time retail (which I REALLY do not want to go back to) to entry-level office positions with zero luck, and yes, I’m having people look over my resumes and applications.

    I also haven’t been approved for unemployment despite being made to do paperwork like I have been, and I’m getting nervous. I’m also under a lot of pressure from my dad, who is completely freaking out over my (admittedly kind of expensive, I have a chronic illness) medical bills. Is there anything I’m missing that could at least get me a stopgap?

    1. VermiciousKnit*

      Have you tried looking at temp agencies? Especially if you express interest in temp to hire or long term assignments and show proficiency with basic office programs and norms, they usually will get you placed really quickly. I had this kind of thing happen in 08 where I was in architecture/design, lost my job, and fell back on admin skills. I ended up in a job I absolutely loved for a few years as a permanent hire thanks to a temp assignment.

      1. AR*

        It’s a last resort. I really need benefits and stability if at all possible; insulin is really expensive, as are blood sugar test strips and pump supplies, and frankly I’d like to move out of my parents’ place at some point. Also, the temp services around here are not super trustworthy, and I can’t afford to move. That said, I’ll probably do it next week, if they’re able to place me within reasonable distance.

      2. VermiciousKnit*

        This depends wildly on your location/state, but in some places while you’re on unemployment or temporary work you’re also eligible for medicaid. I hope you figure something out soon! That sounds so stressful. :(

        1. AR*

          My state makes it nearly impossible to get on any kind of assistance, because bootstraps. I’m starting to panic a little, because I have been through every job on my state’s employment portal within 25 miles of my house and there is NOTHING, and I have to have another application in by tomorrow night or I lose my unemployment benefits.

          Thank you for the thoughts!

          1. WellRed*

            Crap! When you said you had an expensive condition, I was afraid you were gonna say diabetes. I feel ya! I wonder if you are in my bootstrap state? The one where the Unemployment office is all messed up and that’s causing a delay?

            1. AR*

              A quick Google says probably not, though we may or may not be state neighbors! Anyway, it turned out to be a bank problem, not an unemployment problem, except that they completely failed to communicate with me.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Pharmaceutical companies have programs to assist people who cannot afford their medication. Are there any charities in your area that could help? Maybe a food bank so that you hav more money available for your medication? Can you contact a hospital social worker for contacts who might be able to help you with medications so that you would not become a hospitalized indigent? Does your doctor or pharmacist know of any resources you could ask for assistance?

      1. AR*

        I am currently on 100% financial assistance through my insurance company, which includes everything except labs, which I have to get fairly often. It’s just that I can be taken off of it without warning, and Dad has anxiety.

        I also live with my parents, so I was not paying for, say, food. I was just making very, very little (enough that I got onto financial assistance before I got laid off).

  194. a good mouse*

    This might be too late in the day to post a question and get replies, but I’d love to get input from the hive mind.

    A couple months ago I saw a listing for a really interesting role on a different team from mine at my work. I didn’t see the role until about a month after it was posted so they were already in their final decision making by the time I threw my hat in. The head of the team still had an informal interview with me and said even if that role didn’t work out they were going to be adding roles in a few months and I should ping him and that he could give me a tour of their offices. I wrote back to him and had a tour of the offices a couple weeks later, which I felt like I was awkward at for a variety of reasons. It was a weird day for other reasons.

    He again said to ping him in a month or two to see if they’d gotten the funding for additional roles. But now that I’m sitting in trying to write that email everything just sounds weirdly worded.

    How would you phrase a “hey it’s been a month, I’m still interested, did you do that demo you were waiting on and are you adding roles?”

    1. VermiciousKnit*

      Can you just be fairly breezy about it? “Thank you so much for the tour last month! As you requested, I’m checking in about the status of funding and the development of these roles. I appreciate any news you can give me. Thanks again!” or something like that?

    2. WhyAreYouHittingYourself*

      “Hi ______,

      I hope you’re doing well! Last time we spoke you mentioned I should reach out to inquire about funding for the new _______ positions. I really enjoyed the tour of the offices and I am still interested in joining the company! I wanted to catch up with you on whether or not you did the demo you were waiting on and if you are still planning on adding the new roles.

      It was great meeting up with you and I look forward to hearing back!

      Sincerely,
      A Good Mouse”

  195. VermiciousKnit*

    I don’t know if this will get any answers so late in the day, but I could use some cover letter advice. I am trying to move on from a social services executive assistant position into an arts administration job (I do a TON of side hustle and volunteer work in our local arts community so this is not as left-field as it sounds.)

    The job listing specifically talks about wanting someone who can connect with and collaborate with the larger arts community, within the university where the position is and in our larger local area. One of my side-hustle co-owners is actually a manager at one of the other university programs, and because of my volunteer work I have connections with literally dozens of other arts groups.

    How should I refer to this in my resume? I have a feeling a name-dropping list is not going to be hugely helpful, but just saying “My work in community outreach has created a large number of personal and professional connections with many local arts organizations” seems vague and unhelpful.

    2. WhyAreYouHittingYourself*

      What I would do is say exactly what you said, “My work in community outreach has created a large number of personal and professional connections with many local arts organizations” but add “such as X, Y, and Z” at the end. That way you’re not really “name dropping” but they have an idea of what kind of connections you are talking about. And assuming they reach out to you for an interview, I think that would be where you’d get more specific about naming some of the people you have connections with.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think mentioning the organizations you’ve worked with is perfectly reasonable. I would refrain from name-dropping specific people though.

      “In my community outreach work, I’ve worked with the following organizations: Llamas Inc, Teapot Talent, Chocolate Teapots, and The Underwater Basketweaving Society. My project with the Underwater Basketweaving Society involved increasing their social media reach by 50% utilizing Twitter and Facebook.”

      1. VermiciousKnit*

        That’s kind of what I have in my draft. There are just so MANY. I know there are a few I can prioritize, but where would you stop? Three? Five?

        (Also not trying to brag. I just have worked on a lot of collaborative projects and generally like people. :) )

        2. Jennifer Thneed*

          Three is a good number. And in the interview (that you will of course get called in for) you can talk about the rest of them.

  196. WhyAreYouHittingYourself*

    I’m struggling with an issue at work that maybe you all can help me with. Sorry this is going to be long!

    I have a coworker, I’ll call her Megan, who I somewhat consider a friend but also know is a very difficult person. She takes everything (EVERYTHING) incredibly personally and is constantly complaining about, well, everything. The reason I consider her to be sort of a friend is we do have some things in common, like we have similar tastes in TV, and on a deeper level we both have anxiety, so I do relate to her in some ways.

    Megan had a privileged upbringing and will often reference the fact that her family belongs to multiple yacht clubs and own multiple beach houses. However, she says that her family is somewhat elitist and overly critical, and that she suffers from terrible self esteem problems because of how she was raised.

    This bad self esteem results in her constantly assuming people are talking down to her, think she is stupid, etc. She regularly tells me that the “whole office” hates her and that everyone “ignores” her when I’m not here. Neither of these things are true. We have office politics like anybody else, but nothing so silly as “EVERYONE HATING” someone just because. And people don’t ignore her, we simply work in an office where people are mainly focused on their computers, and her position isn’t one that has to interact with others regularly.

    If that was it, I would probably be able to handle it, but recently she has begun getting extremely upset when her work is edited. Our director of communications edits any mass emails before they go out and she can be very particular. It REALLY upsets Megan to see all the changes after she feels she has worked so hard to develop the draft. I’m not saying this is or should be fun and enjoyable! However, I don’t think it warrants sobbing, saying she’s imagining burning her boss and this comms director with cigarettes, saying she hates them forever, and complaining endlessly to me about it. She even decided that she was going to start putting less effort into the emails so that she would get less upset, but she still gets just as upset.

    What really baffles me is her boss is being really understanding and constructive in trying to find a solution to this problem. She makes it sound like he’s writing her these awful screeds where he refuses to help her, but then she sent me one of them and it was SUPER reasonable and kind. Her response back to him absolutely took me aback–it devolved into a big ugly FeelingsMail mess of self pity and “If I’m so terrible at my job then what am I even doing here?” We are in our 30s! I feel like we should be past sending emails like this to supervisors!

    Any suggestions I have to help are immediately dismissed as impossible or pointless, or I’m told I’m not allowing her to feel her feelings or something like that. By all means, feel your feelings! But I’m not trying to oppress you by letting you know I think it’s a Bad Idea to send your boss these kinds of emails. I’ve tried realism. I’ve tried sugarcoating stuff. I’ve tried telling her to talk to her therapist. I’ve tried repeating back to her the things she is saying (which, hilariously, ended in her getting FURIOUS at me).

    I should also mention that she sometimes has suicidal impulses and has contacted me in the midst of these instances. I have asked if I can call someone for her, look up a hotline, etc. but she insists she is “safe” despite the suicidal ideation. I felt a little bad but I ended up discussing it with management because she sometimes says these things during work and if something happens, I don’t want to be the person who did nothing. So they are already kinda aware that she is having some problems.

    I guess my question is… what do I do?? I feel like I’m watching someone sabotaging their career and it’s really difficult to see, but I can’t think of a single thing I could say or do that would pull her off this path because she seems REAL determined to be on it. Do I just wash my hands and focus on getting through the day?

    1. WhyAreYouHittingYourself*

      Holy crap, I had no idea I wrote an actual book until I hit submit!! Sorry again for the wall of text!

    2. Ryan*

      You absolutely, 100% have to wash your hands of this and distance yourself from her.

      As someone who went through a self-deprecating phase with a lot of personalization of issues in my 20s I 100% understand what this person is going through, at least from a socialization standpoint.

      The problem is that the only solution is going to be them finding it on their own and there’s absolutely nothing anyone else will ever be able to do until she realizes that.

      You cannot help her — I know that sounds awful; She has to help herself and you can’t make her do so. You need to start just saying “I’m sorry you feel that way” and moving on.

      1. WhyAreYouHittingYourself*

        Thanks, Ryan. I suspected this was the case, but I’m a fixer and I wanna FIX. I have to work on ridding myself of that impulse.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          but I’m a fixer and I wanna FIX. I have to work on ridding myself of that impulse.

          You and me both :)

        2. Lumen*

          One thing that helps me when I get into that ‘Fixer’ mindset is to remind myself of three mantras:

          1) “Someone who has tied their identity to helplessness cannot allow themselves to receive help from me.”

          2) “Megan’s feelings are none of my business. It’s really inappropriate for me to get so involved.”

          3) And not a mantra so much as a visual image: Megan is in a giant hole, crying for help. You give her a ladder, a rope, a hand up, a helicopter rescue, you even get in the hole and put her on your shoulders. Eventually she is able to get out! And as soon as you exhale in relief, she throws herself back in. Repeat.

          1. WhyAreYouHittingYourself*

            These are really, really good. I need to print these out and tape them to my wall.

    3. Rick Tq*

      Wash your hands and back away.

      Megan has to be willing to deal with her issues and not over-react to every perceived slight, there is nothing you can do to change the situation.

    4. VermiciousKnit*

      I have a student assistant with mental health issues that engages in a lot of this behavior. The thing that keeps her under control is actually NOT making accommodations for her and instead asserting firm but loving boundaries, always.

      When she says things like “I know you hate me, it’s totally pointless for me to be here” I don’t even address what she said so much as what she’s doing. “I know you’re having a bad day, but do not loyalty test me when you’re feeling down. You need to find another way to deal with what you’re feeling.”

      Whens she gets insecure about the quality of her work despite my having told her many, many times it’s fine, I call that out too. “I’ve already told you my opinion of your work, and that it is great. You can choose to accept that or not, but I cannot endlessly reassure you. That’s work you have to do yourself.”

      So maybe when she goes off about editing you can point out that she’s interpreting a normal business process as a measure of her worth/how well she’s liked and that’s something she needs to work through on her own and you can’t agree that the boss is unreasonable. Or point out how inappropriate it is to wish violence and actual harm on a person over frustration with a work process. Be kind, but be firm. Don’t engage with the inappropriate emotional behavior. It’s likely never actually about whatever she’s freaking out about; it’s about unhealthy patterns of emotions and not understanding appropriate boundaries.

      You may also want to encourage her to seek professional emotional support or therapy because her reactions are very outsized to the very normal annoyances of having a job.

      2. VermiciousKnit*

        Sorry, just realized you already have tried the therapy thing. You can maybe take that up as a bland non-response like Allison sometimes suggests. “That sounds like something you should discuss with your therapist. Good luck.” and then totally disengage.

        1. WhyAreYouHittingYourself*

          That’s okay, your answer was very helpful. Boundaries are the name of the game, I think. I just need to get better about sticking to them instead of caving and trying to help. The outsized-ness of the reaction is offputting as hell. I know receiving criticism ain’t a party but… this is work, not the Megan Show.

          The other interesting thing is that she also responds horribly to people validating her emotions and sharing similar experiences, which… I just don’t get at all! Our colleagues will tell her they’ve been there and she’s not alone and that somehow makes her angry? Like because she doesn’t get to be the Extra Especially Most-Persecuted one anymore? It is wild.

    5. Jennifer Thneed*

      Have you pointed out the pattern? Have you said, You know, all I did right now was repeat back to you what you said, but you got angry at me. I’m only saying the same things you said. I don’t believe this stuff and I hope you don’t.

      I agree with the folks saying you have to detach. Tell her you can’t listen to her, tell her you’re busy, tell her that she pays a therapist good money and maybe she should go in more often?

      Tell her that you feel bad for her, that it seems like she’s having a bad day.

      Tell her that’s she’s saying mean things about a friend of yours.

      And — this is the biggie — if she calls you in the middle of the night threatening self-harm, tell her that you’re worried and that you’ll call 911 right away. (And if it happens again, MAKE THAT CALL. She’s threatening someone’s life, right?)

      1. WhyAreYouHittingYourself*

        I do say all those things, but she has terrible reactions to all of them. “I DO talk about this to my therapist. But it’s not going to change.” “Every day is a bad day because I hate it here.” “I guess I’m not allowed to have feelings… I’ll just never talk to you about this again. Sorry for BOTHERING you.” That doesn’t mean I don’t say them, it just means I stop responding after she gets pissed off at me, because wow this is not my problem!

        Yes, I have no hesitation about making an emergency call if needed. At the very least I plan to get her mother’s phone number in my phone because they live about 5 minutes apart and I’m about 45 minutes away and in another state (DC/MD/VA area), so it might get a faster response if her mom called 911.

    6. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      Holy cow. Megan has…issues.

      Honestly, the best thing to do is to mostly wash yourself of these issues. I’m not a doctor, but it really seems as if she has bigger issues than work. She’s actively refusing your assistance. To summarize Lumen’s point, you can’t save those who don’t want to be saved – so she might have to blow up her career to get to a place where she can heal herself.

      (I’m also a recovering Fixer. It’s…been liberating to not care as much, but hard to remind myself I shouldn’t!)

      The one exception is if she’s actually a danger to herself (or someone else), and then you should step in. You’ve done due diligence in providing support lines for something that’s not immediately dangerous, though.

      1. WhyAreYouHittingYourself*

        Yes, I agree. In talking with my boss and another exec about the problem, we came up with some solutions and things I can say and do in the event she makes this kind of statement again (such as asking her for her mother’s # to put in my phone because they live close together and she could actually help if contacted), and they told me to come back to them if that happens. To be honest I have also talked to my own therapist about this extensively! I try to let her perpetual crises slide off me but I take the suicide stuff really seriously.

        1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

          I mean, you’re doing a lot of things you should be doing. I’m kind of dancing around my assessment of the situation because I’m not a doctor, but this sounds very similar to another situation someone talked about on AAM.

          All I’m going to say is that it’s probably really terrible to BE Megan. This doesn’t mean you’re obligated to be her best friend, or that you should shun her because she’s toxic. (Definitely not the first. The second…it sounds like you might be getting to that point, but not yet?) But just be careful for yourself. If you can detach yourself from what Megan does because Megan Is Megan, that’s probably the best solution.

        2. neverjaunty*

          Wait, no. Don’t put her mother’s phone in your contacts, and don’t let your bosses make her your problem. That is still overinvolvement in her life. Stop. Fixing.

    7. Falling Diphthong*

      You have been doing the right thing, which is to provide a real world check on her ideas about what’s reasonable and unreasonable. (Like this blog provides an outside voice that maybe 80% of the time says “That is not normal, your office is full of bees” and 20% “That is totally normal and not at all outrageous.”) But you can’t change other people, and it is reasonable to disengage from people who insist on wading into quicksand and then try to haul you in after them. I get how much you want to hit on the right statement to open her eyes–her coworkers don’t all hate her, the edits are routine, her boss is trying to be kind rather than monstrous–but you have tried that and it hasn’t worked, over and over, and you’re allowed to now try distancing.

    8. neverjaunty*

      “We have similar hobbies and anxieties and can relate” doesn’t make her a friend, at all. It means you have enough in common to interact in a friendly way.

    9. ..Kat..*

      If she is as bad as she sounds, being her friend (I.e., having coworkers connect you with her) is possibly damaging your work reputation. Please back away. Given how she responds when you suggest solutions, she does not want a fix – she wants drama. Again, please back away. You are not a bad person for backing away.

  197. Lumen*

    See, I was taught that it’s rude (and kinda loser-y) to invite yourself along to outings or events that you haven’t been asked to join in on, but I was also taught that it’s REALLY rude to talk about outings and events in front of people you’ve excluded.

    Which is probably why it hurts my feelings/drives me nuts when the teammate who sits next to me is happily chatting with coworkers from other groups (that I work with, too) about happy hours they all have planned and none of them think to ask me. It really stings. :(

    1. Lumen*

      (For what it’s worth, most of the these groups are 20somethings, and I am in my 30s. They’re all 5-10 years younger than I am. I honestly think they just assume everyone who is ‘An Old’ either isn’t interested or wouldn’t be fun to hang out with. And on the one hand: I am not desperate to hang out with a group of people who are younger than me if that’s their attitude. On the other hand, it makes it hard to not take it personally. And again: SO RUDE.)

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Can you put together a happy hour yourself with the coworkers you like? I used to feel bad about not being invited with “the youngs” but now a few of us “olds” get together it doesn’t even phase me anymore when the youth talk about their happy hours. They’re not doing it AT me and I don’t think this is such a clear-cut etiquette rule they’re violating.

        1. Lumen*

          Well, agree to disagree on whether it’s rude or not. :)

          Unfortunately, most people in my workplace are either The Youngs… or they are my age/older but they have kids, or are already in established groups of their own, or only hang out with other couples. I generally feel excluded at work even when there isn’t a happy hour being planned 3′ from me.

          I think that’s part of what makes this so hard. I honestly can’t think of anyone in my office who is my age but doesn’t have a drastically different lifestyle/set of interests.

          I feel good about my social life outside of work, but when I’m here and stuff like this is going on, it brings up all these feelings of being pointedly excluded for reasons I can’t fathom. These are people who hang out at my desk to chat about things unrelated to work, who I get along with well, but as soon as it’s a happy hour I don’t fit? I can’t wrap my head around it, so my Jerkbrain fills in all the possible reasons why I’m just so terribly unlikable.

          1. Seriously?*

            They most likely assume you are not interested. What about organizing a happy hour and inviting them? Then they will know that you actually do enjoy going to happy hour.

            1. Jill*

              This. I totally understand the feeling of exclusion, but most likely they are thinking “Lumen wouldn’t be interested in coming”, and not “We don’t want Lumen to come.”

              I agree with Seriously – plan one yourself and invite people. And yes, it’s technically rude to invite yourself, but when they continually talk about these outings in front of you, I think it’s fine if you say “That sounds like a lot of fun, would you mind if I joined the next one?”

            2. Thlayli*

              This. This is the solution. Ask them to go for a drink with you instead of hoping they will magically realise you want to go without you having to say anything.

      2. buttercup*

        I agree this is very tactless of them, though it is possible they aren’t trying to make you feel excluded on purpose. I also find this distinction between people in their 20s and 30s very odd. My team is basically people in their 20s and early 30s, and we all get along and hang out as a group without making a big deal about the age difference. I’m entering my late 20s soon, and I would find it strange if people started treating me like it’s oh so old.

    2. Jennifer Thneed*

      You know, you could actually ask them to take those conversations to the break room. (You could even throw in a mock-sigh about how lonely it makes you, but only if you can go hyper-melodramatic, back of hand to forehead, woe is me, etc, and then only as you’re walking away for some water.)

      It probably wouldn’t hurt your feelings quite as much if it didn’t also interrupt your work?

      1. Thlayli*

        You could do this. But then they definitely won’t ever want to go for a drink with you.

        (Btw I have never heard that it’s rude to talk about an event in front of people who weren’t there. If they were intentionally excluding you then it would be rude, but it sound more like they assume you don’t want to come, so I really don’t see what’s rude about them discussing it.)

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          You’re hearing it now, and it’s for exactly that reason: people feeling bad about being left out. It’s more of a social thing than a work thing, but going for a happy hour is a social thing, not a work thing, even if it’s with co-workers.

  198. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

    And…after eight years at my current job, I’m applying to a new job! Wish me luck! Trying to follow a lot of the information on AAM.

      1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

        Thanks! It’s kind of a pivot into a field that I didn’t realize was a thing (It’s a small part of my job, but one part I’m really good at), so it’s going to be interesting!

  199. Technical_Kitty*

    This is probably too late in the day for many to see this but anyways…

    I posted in February about my work situation. Someone had been moved to my very small (me + boss) department, he has the same title I do but can only do about 10% of the work implied by the title. And he has been at the company so long that he gets paid significantly more than I do.

    He’s very nice but we would have been better off with an outside hire that has the appropriate skill set.

    Anyways, a few weeks ago I found out that there will only be one person with my title in our group going forward – ie me – and IF he stays with the company it will be in another department or capacity. And just this week I found out he will be laid off soon – I’m not supposed to know about it and can’t say anything. And our bonus’ were received today, I don’t have the paperwork yet, but it’s either a very good bonus or the raise is better than I thought it would be.

    TLDR: Unqualified legacy getting the boot and I’m getting more money.

    2. Thlayli*

      Happy for you, but sad for the guy who got transferred to a role he wasn’t able for and then let go. He really got shafted.

  200. k8*

    soooo late to the thread but: i have a phone screen next week with a big deal tech company, which i am stoked but nervous about. i know a girl i went to school with was interviewing with them a month or so ago, but i’m not sure if she got offered a position or not (or is still in the hiring process)– her linkedin still has her old job, but that doesn’t really mean anything. I really want to ask her about her phone screen and if she can share what kinds of things they asked, but i don’t want to rub salt in the wound if she didn’t get the gig. any ideas on how to tactfully approach??

    1. beanie beans*

      I don’t think the info you’d gain by asking her is worth the awkward conversation.

      100% of the phone screens that I have had asked:
      Why are you interested in the job/company
      Tell me about yourself (background/experience)
      Salary expectations
      And usually something specific to the job that they are looking for

      1. atexit8*

        Is the phone screen with HR?
        If so, be prepared for the why are you interested, why do you want to leave, type of questions?

        Some hiring managers love to hear themselves talk.
        Yeah, you’d be surprised.

        I would ask about is the timeline going forward. Not that they will ever follow it.

        .

  201. Green Eggs and Spam*

    Hi everyone,

    I know I’m quite far down the thread but I was hoping to get some advice on this.

    For the past 2-3 years, my employment history has been sporadic because I was only ever able to get contract jobs or nothing at all. The past year has been extremely difficult because my mental health problems pretty much overtook my life and while I did look for work, most of the time I felt hopeless. I also looked for volunteer positions as well but most of the time I didn’t hear back when it came to longer term positions vs 1-3 day event positions.

    I’ve recently joined a youth employment program but most of their positions are retail/manual labour and I’m looking for office assistant type jobs and the ones that have been posted require skills I don’t have. While I’ve had my resume critiqued 4 times in the past two months and told that there’s nothing wrong with it (one was a recruiter and another a former hiring manager) I’m still going to update it. Does anyone know how to deal with writing a resume with a gap of 1+ years AND a bunch of contract/volunteer work? I’m worried that I’m just going to continue to be unemployed for the rest of the year if I don’t do something soon.

    1. Jennifer Thneed*

      I hope this helps! Also, I’m assuming you’re in the US, so I hope that’s true.

      1. Don’t worry too hard about the gap. When asked, say you were having health problems that have cleared up and you’re fine now. (This is not a lie. Mental health is health.)
      2. I’ve been working for decades and in the past 10 years it has been mostly contract stuff. For my resume, I bundle it all together, like I put “Contract positions 2016-2018” where I would usually put a company name, and then I list each contract separately as though it was different titles in the same company.
      3. A 1-page resume is FINE.
      4. Does your employment program offer any training at all? Ask them to help you learn the specific skills you want for those office jobs.
      5. Use this site (https://www.careeronestop.org/site/american-job-center.aspx) to find your local branch of America’s Job Center. AJC is run by the Department of Labor and each state handles it differently. (For example, my state calls it “America’s Job Center of California”.) They will help you with so much stuff, including resumes and getting training and practice interviews. When I was receiving unemployment I attended one of their general info sessions and I was very impressed with the woman presenting and with what they could offer.
      So much luck to you, Green Eggs Person!

      1. Green Eggs and Spam*

        I’m actually in Canada but I still appreciate the help. :)

        Hmm, I never thought of bundling up the contract positions together. Thanks for the tip.

        My employment program doesn’t really offer training – they tend to just hold workshops to make you “employer ready” which is frustrating for me (because I’ve been working since I was in my teens). I’d have to go to one of the provincial job centres to apply for a program to gain skills… and attend other job preparation workshops that aren’t specific to the job I’m applying to – just in general, like my current program. It’s mainly trouble for me because all this time spent going to workshops on stuff I already know (like 80% of it) is taken away from the time I could be job hunting. :/

        Thanks again for the advice!

    2. atexit8*

      It is plain tough out there.
      I don’t care what the unemployment rate is.

      And your employment history will held against you.
      That’s been my experience.

      I don’t know how to get around that except to highlight specific skills.

      Perhaps you can take classes at the local community college specifically on Word and Excel.
      Those are used quite heavily in the office.

      I have had companies send me online assesment tests on Word, Excel, and Outlook.

      Good luck!
      .

    3. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      So, you sound like you’re fairly young (like early 20s) – there are agencies and programs that specialize more in office work! (The one I work with does.) And…I think being young might make the spottiness of your work history less of an issue than otherwise.

      My suggestion is to keep looking in your area at programs. And…like, I really hope things get better for you soon in terms of your health.

      1. Green Eggs and Spam*

        You’re very close – I’m in my mid 20s! The reason why I’m additionally worried and frustrated is that I graduated from university 3 years ago so I can’t apply to any opportunities that are for recent grads (as they tend to require grads to be no more than a year out of school). That and then some of the jobs I’m interested in require more experience than I have.

        Yeah I’m signed up to one temp agency but going to try another since the one I’m signed up to now keeps giving me jobs that are under two weeks and not really a step up from my past work experience (if that makes any sense).

        Thank you for the kind words and support!

      2. A Nickname for AAM*

        “Office work” is something to be really, really careful about. It’s something I was directed into during the recession, and it’s terrible career advice. All work that takes place in an office is not equal, and all work that takes place in an office is not necessarily better than work that takes place outside of an office. “Office work” usually just tracks (mostly women) into dead-end admin jobs.

        There are lots of companies and businesses that don’t have a traditional “office” environment, yet require you to develop a professional skillset that’s more in demand and viable as a long-term career path than a job that would happen in a non-descript office. We have lots of people at my work who handle purchasing, accounts receivable, staff management, scheduling, budgeting, program development/management, marketing, teaching, and grant writing/management, in a not-typical-office environment, in not-typical-office attire. It’s much more marketable long-term, with more room for growth, than a lot of “office” work that trains you to do more of the same (no growth.)

        1. Green Eggs and Spam*

          I understand what you’re saying but right now I need some sort of work that isn’t customer service intensive as I’ve been doing that for over 8+ years now and because of my mental health (as mentioned above) can’t handle doing a job like that right now. No one directed me to this area and for any career areas I’m interested in, I don’t have enough job experience/skills to get my foot in the door at the moment. I chose office work as an area to pursue for the next 1-2 years because some of my work history includes office support and I’m unsure of what work I want to pursue for the next 5 years but needed to narrow down what I can do for now.

        2. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

          I see your point, but I think you might be getting ahead of yourself. I took Green Eggs’ initial comment as their preference to not work in retail or in a warehouse, and I was pointing out that not all programs are like that.

          I will acknowledge that there might not always be room for internal growth, though. That’s an issue that they should consider.

    4. Kerr*

      Oh, this sounds so much like me a few years ago. There’s light at the end of the tunnel! I’m a few years into a “real” job after a string of contract jobs, and major job gaps (hello economic recession and personal depression, combining at the worst possible time). Lots of panic and despair and cover letters and temp agencies.

      – Resume: I grouped all the short-term jobs under a single entry per agency. So a week’s contract job in January followed by a 2-week job followed by a 2-week gap followed by a 2-week job would = “January-March” working for “Agency.” Alison has posts on how to list contract jobs.
      – Sign up with as many agencies as possible. All The Agencies. Most will be duds; you just need one or two gems.
      – Don’t entirely discount the short-term jobs! I mean, pick the long-term if they’re available, but my (permanent) job started as a one-week assignment. That was it, but when they needed someone several months later, they asked for me.
      – Without knowing what kind of skills the jobs are asking for, I would say learning Office is essential – Excel and Word are standard.
      – Required experience? If they’re asking for 2-3 years, and you have 0-1, apply. For most entry-level administrative jobs, they’re just being aspirational with the experience requirement.
      I hope things start looking up for you!

      1. Green Eggs and Spam*

        Hmm, so for all my jobs would you suggest that I put the month and year of the position? I ask this because there are 1-2 positions where I gained skills but were either 6 months or less. I’m also looking at the archives for articles on listing temp work on resumes but can only find 2 or 3…

        Thanks for the additional tips and kind words (especially from some with similar experiences), it’s greatly appreciated. :)

  202. Wombat*

    Question – is it normal to NOT be allowed to interview / interact with applicants who are applying for your position?

    I’m a young professional still learning workplace norms, and I will be leaving my organization in a few weeks. I feel like I embarrassed myself the other day because I had assumed I would be part of the process (since my manager had been very transparent throughout the application process thus far by letting everyone see the applicants’ resumes, telling me who the finalists were, etc.) so I made a comment to my manager about being there for the interviews, and she told me it’s a normal HR thing to not interview your replacement.

    1. fposte*

      Yep, normal. It’s pretty common not to include the departing employee, though it’s nice when they can and that happens too.

    2. Daria Grace*

      It’s very normal to not be involved. Usually you wouldn’t even see the resumes. While it might make sense for very specialised roles where the recruiter couldn’t possibly understand the details of the role to involve the departing staff member, in more junior roles the recruiter probably doesn’t need the assistance. They may also worry about the impression or information a departing staff member may give.

    3. Student*

      Normal. You didn’t embarrass yourself with your assumption, though – this isn’t even a minor faux pas, just a communication clarification.

      From the perspective of wanting to hire someone who will get along with the remaining employees, it’s not useful to get the input of the current-but-departing employee. The current-but-departing employee may also have a harder time than colleagues imagining how a different person with a slightly different skill set could occupy or positively alter their role, though they can give good insight on what skills they currently need in the role.

    5. Wombat*

      Okay, thanks for the feedback everyone! For context, my organization is VERY small (we don’t even have HR…my manager essentially acts as HR for our 4-person office) but this helps to know for the future :)

  203. Becky*

    So today I officially got my recognition certificate for 5 years at my company. Technically, I don’t actually hit the anniversary for another two months or so, but they do the service recognitions all at the same time, and I got the 5 year PTO bump at the beginning of the year. It seems like 5 years has flown by! I’m actually pretty happy to stick with this company at least for the foreseeable future. I find a lot of things in my job rewarding and enjoy many aspects of it.

    Poll: How long have you been at your current job and what is the longest you’ve stuck with the same company?

    I think I was at a previous job for 6 or 7 years but that was a butt-in-chair job that paid minimum wage with no benefits and I only stuck with because I could surf online most of the day.

    1. CatCat*

      Current job: 1.75 years.

      Longest I’ve stuck with the same employer: 3.5 years.

      Really happy with current job and plan to stick around for a long time.

    3. Enough*

      My son just made associate at work this year. You have to be with the company for 5 years when they make the decisions. He was there 4 yrs and 11 months at last year’s decision time.

    4. Red Reader*

      Current employer: 4 years next month, not counting temp time. (I was 6 months a temp before getting hired in permanently, then 1.5 years in one position and 2.5 years in my current position.)
      Longest employer: 8.5 years, six months as a temp and the rest perm, all in the same role.

  204. blergarg*

    Heyy guys, what do you make of an interview that’s supposed to be 45 min going to 2 hours?

    2. Daria Grace*

      Hard to say without context. Could be that they were really interested in you and wanted to go into more depth. Could be that they’re bad at interviewing and don’t get to the point quickly

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Were they asking questions, or telling you about this weird dream they had?

    3. Thlayli*

      More likely to be a good sign than a bad sign. Why would they waste time on someone who they didn’t think was good

  205. KX*

    All this talk of My Recruiter this and My Recruiter that… how does one get a recruiter? Is it really only for certain fields? Or do you luck into it? Or do you apply diligently to talent placement agencies and hope someone decides to represent you?

    I’ve had a recruiter contact me via LinkedIn once, and it was a twit, and the contact went nowhere within less than an hour. A few times I have applied to positions that a recruiter posted, and it seemed to be fine until positions disappeared mysteriously and I would never hear from the agency again. But I am getting this vision of recruiters as people lobbying tirelessly on employee’s behalf, like fairy godmothers.

    I guess I could pay someone to represent me (like a job placement service), but that does not seem to fit the details I glean on these comment threads or other employment chit chat.

    1. Thlayli*

      I assumed they meant they applied for a job advertised by a recruitment company. In that case the person they are in contact with at the recruitment company would be their Recruiter for that specific role.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      Done well, a recruiter is like a hiring manager. They were hired by a hiring manager/company who doesn’t have time for the first few levels of reviewing applications. It’s not like an agent–an ongoing relationship between an employee and one recruiter is rare, though it might happen in a field with lots of short-term projects for different employers that calls for a narrow, in-demand skill-set.

  206. many bells down*

    A few weeks ago I posted about getting a gift for one of the curators at the museum where I volunteer. The exhibit closes in a couple weeks, and I brought in the gift and a card and asked my boss if she’d ask the other volunteers who’ve worked in that exhibit to sign it. I thought a gift from “the volunteers” was less weird than a gift from “this one volunteer.”

    He was delighted with the gift, apparently. He tweeted about it. So that makes me happy.

  207. Someone else*

    Opinions please:
    My company handbook does officially state no non-natural hair colors. However, I work remotely and am not in a client-facing position. I do not do site visits. I do not do video calls. I am thousands of miles from any of our offices. I am not scheduled to go to any conferences until at least 2019. It is extremely unlikely this will change and I would find myself in the same room as anyone in a work capacity in the next 10 months.

    However, I do live in the same city as several clients who would recognize me if they saw me out in public.

    I am considering dying my hair a non-natural color. My thinking on this is, even if I were to run into a client while out and about, that’s no different than if I were wearing jeans and ran into a client. (Jeans are also prohibited by my employer) If I run into someone on the street, I’m not seeing any local clients in an official capacity. I’m just a resident of the same city.

    My thinking is this should be fine because 1) I’m not going to see anyone in an official capacity 2) The chance of my seeing anyone in an unofficial capacity is already small 3) Even if I did see someone in an unofficial capacity they’d have virtually no reason to bring up my hair to Company, since they wouldn’t even necessarily be aware of it being allowed or disallowed. So I’d not only need to randomly run into a client who’d recognize me, but also one who would make it their personal crusade to complain about this.

    What say you? Fine because I’d have no work-related visibility? Not fine because “if you have to ask, you know it’s not cool”. Should be fine but an unreasonable employer might have a problem with it anyway and since it’s in the handbook they’d be right to be pissed?

    1. Red Reader*

      Naw. Do it. As far as I’m concerned, my work dress code only applies when I am -a- on the clock and -b- on site. The number of webex conference calls I’ve had with my upper management while wearing fuzzy zombie pajamas and a t-shirt that doesn’t match, with 13 tattoos on display and my hair dyed green, is very high. They know, but what they can’t see onsite, they don’t care about. (They recently relaxed our dress code policy though. Unnatural hair colors and tattoos are now allowed, as are jeans with director approval. Mine approved.)

      I would say, don’t dye anything you couldn’t figure out a way to cover up if you did have to unexpectedly go onsite for a meeting or something. I only dyed my hair from the shoulders down — when I put it up, it was very hard to notice, and people usually assumed any color they did see was a hair tie of some sort.

    3. Thlayli*

      I would suggest asking your boss first since you know already that it’s against the rules.

      1. Someone else*

        My boss wouldn’t care. The CEO might. That’s four levels above me. It’s also come up before that some of the stuff in the handbook I was previously taking great pains to follow, actually doesn’t apply to me and was only intended for client visits. (I think that makes it a poorly written handbook, but…) So there’s a precedent of Leadership being all “oh, yeah you don’t need to bother with that rule” before, almost laughing at me for so rigidly following said rules.That’s part of why I’m thinking this one doesn’t really matter.

    4. A Nickname for AAM*

      What year was this policy put in place?

      I’ve had several jobs that had a no piercings/tattoos/unnatural hair colors or styles rules on the books, only to remove it on the next revision because it was too difficult to enforce based on the labor pool, or middle managers refused to enforce it because they (rightly) felt it was discriminatory against marginalized groups. This meant there was some dead period in the middle, where the policy was on the books but it was no longer in effect.

    5. MissDissplaced*

      I don’t think I’d worry over this one. Dye your hair!
      If you were going into the office it would be a different thing. And if you DO end up having to do a video call you can probably hide it by putting it up (not that the colors on hangouts calls are great anyway).

  208. aNon*

    Other than a general “please let me know if any accommodations you need for work” and general sensitivity to access issues….is there anything a particular I should do as a good manager to someone with a physical disabilty that requires a wheelchair?

    1. sheep jump death match*

      -Make sure work-adjacent locations and similar are accessible, not just your office. IE, conference hotels, off-site meetings, transportation to same, etc. Goes double for work social events.

      1. aNon*

        Thank you! This is the issue at hand. Going out to lunch with a new report who uses a wheelchair. Should I take on the task of finding a restaurant that is accessible, ask him if he has a preference…?

    2. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      Something that should be obvious but wasn’t to me: treat the chair as an extension of the user’s body. Also, don’t be that pushy about helping out! I actually had to be lightly reprimanded when I first got promoted – now I’ll just check to see if they want my help, and do minor things like open the door (which I do for employees who walk because we have an annoying buzzer on our door).

      Finally, make sure you have open and clear pathways! This kind of comes under general sensitivity, but it’s much harder for wheelchair users to turn because of physics.

    3. Thlayli*

      Bathroom issues! Accept they may need to take longer in the bathroom due to logistics. Please ensure the accessible toilet is in good condition. It’s common in a lot of places for people to go in to the accessible toilet if they feel the need for extra privacy (like if they are having poo issues) which can lead to the accessible toilet being really gross. Make sure there is a sanitary bin in the toilet regardless of gender.

      Also, depending on the cause of their disability they may have other associated health issues so may need more medical leave than other people.

      Make sure all the stuff they need to do their job is accessible and not eg on a high shelf. Check the routes to the canteen etc.

      Other then that you’re good. Just treat them like anyone else.

  209. Tones*

    Hi All,
    I heard back from a job I interviewed with 2 weeks ago that I didn’t get the position, I was a close second :(. I’m disappointed I didn’t get it but I’m not sure I would have taken it if it were offered to me, because I’m currently working an entry level position and this was for another (much higher paying) entry level position. But the hiring manager did tell me they liked me and would be hiring for another position that would be a step up within the year, so I’m going to have to keep an eye out for it.

    Leaving my current employer is really hard because I like my coworkers and feel very respected and valued by those on my level or below. I don’t feel that same way about management or the administration though, they don’t notice what I do for the company. I’ve also pretty well figured out that they won’t be making any intermediate positions in the near future for me to move up into, so it would be impossible for me to gain the experience necessary to take my supervisors position when she retires in 3 years. Has anyone been in this position before (love the people you work with but can’t move up without leaving the company)? Any advice on this?

    1. Frequentflier*

      Have you asked your boss for clarity on career progression? There may be other options for you. Training, parallel rotation…

  211. Frequentflier*

    Is anyone here familiar with the Insights Discovery personality test? I’m a red (reforming director, accommodating) working for a green/yellow (helper, classic) Manager. It’s been pure hell for me… it’s like a Type A working for a Type B boss. My manager feels like an overgrown baby and she never appreciates all the work that I do… in fact she seems jealous or insecure. She’s only a couple years older than I am and she seems intent on crushing me like a cockroach. It also doesn’t help that we went to the same high school and college and I got better grades than her, and I topped my cohort for my professional qualification. Any advice, other than starting a new job search?

    1. Thlayli*

      I’m familiar with that test. I’m also a red lol. Your managers behaviour (intentionally trying to crush you) really doesn’t sound like the behaviour of a green. Did you guys actually have the test, or are you assuming?

      Regardless of personality types, it sounds like your boss is bullying you. Can you escalate to hr or to her boss?

      1. Frequentflier*

        Yes, results of the test are out. (She’s a new manager hired after my old manager left.) I’ve escalated to HR and her boss already, but I think all they can do right now is to train her to be a better manager, which is a little tough for a green. The “intentionally try to crush me” part comes from the fact that she has a very old school management style. She acts nice and empathetic to everyone else but gets angry at me all the time. Zero empathy for me even after I told her my troubles, but she expects me to empathise with her when her workload is half of mine (because her boss feels she can’t cope?) Because of this, she scares the heck out of me. Is there such a thing as a narcissistic green? I don’t understand why they hired this helpless needy person as my manager so I’m thinking I should start looking… sigh.

        1. Thlayli*

          Look forget about the personality stuff. She’s bullying you. Escalate the situation and leave all the personality test stiff out of it. Her behaviour not her feelings are what you should be looking At. Write up a complaint to hr. don’t send it. Reread it and remove any reference to personality types. Identify a couple of specific instance of things she has done to you that are unacceptable. Then go to hr. focus on the unacceptable behaviour not the personality types

        2. A Nickname for AAM*

          Results of such tests should be private, so the fact that your company published them is a big red flag that they value poor boundaries and no confidentiality.

          1. Frequentflier*

            Thanks everyone for your responses. You’re right, she’s bullying me. I couldn’t recognise it because she kept saying we’re from the same schools, we’re connected… I hesitated reporting her because I felt bad. Now I know I’m validated… I’ve already told Hr about this but not through a formal complaint about bullying, it was more about how to improve our ways of working. I’ve had trouble sleeping because of her actions and now I realise it’s because she’s bullying me. It gives me things to think about, I have to figure out how to protect myself while I look for a better job outside. I hope to have happier updates in the future :)

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      Strip out the following:
      • Personality tests
      • How everyone did in school
      • How everyone did on professional qualifying exams
      • Whether she was sufficiently sympathetic when you told her your troubles

      You don’t like your manager, and the situation isn’t getting better. That’s a common reason to look for another job. (“I take jobs and leave managers” is how a friend put it.) A caution that you are emphasizing school grades in a way that reminds me of lots of star students, and doesn’t make sense in the work world–it’s like pulling out your high school class rank as an arguing point after you are in college.

  212. Thlayli*

    We are getting 3 new ladies in my office soon. Which makes a total of 4 women out of 14 engineers, and 5 women out of 17 in the office total. I’m so excited to meet the new people.

    (In this country only 10% of engineering graduates are women, so Im a little worried they might be doing some sort of discriminatory hiring to get so many women in, but I hope not.)

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Ugh on the discriminatory hiring. I’ve been told before it just must be so easy to get hired because I’m female. It’s incredibly annoying/insulting to be hired just because you happen to be female. Hire me for my skills and abilities, and because I’m awesome, not because I have boobs!!! /rant

      I once walked into a job first day and was told I needed to fill out this paperwork because now they could finally cite Affirmative Action compliance because now I’m here and oh also with my actual FT position I was going to be the AA intern so they fill those requirements too. It was a lengthier conversation than what I’ll put here, but I got this bad taste in my mouth that they hired me to fulfill obligations rather than put someone with skills in the position – I just happened to have those skills anyway. It felt really off putting to have someone focus so heavily in that I was a woman so hire me, not that hey, she’ll be great in the role, hire her.

      There’s probably a more eloquent way to put that than I did, lol.

  213. EscapePlz!*

    I’m in a really weird situation, and I’m hoping someone can give me a bit of outside perspective. I started a new job in January under one manager with a team of 2, who refused to give me any training in the job because she was too busy to deal with it.

    Because the manager couldn’t cope, the other two were made up to managers. I was placed under a person who works part time, and is currently experiencing a difficult pregnancy so is out a lot with very little notice. Neither have any management experience at all. A new person who will cover my new manager’s role during their maternity leave will come in soon, and that person has no experience either in the job or managing, and is also part time.

    I’m still on probation so my notice period is a week – considering that I would definitely be leaving the team in a very difficult position if I left with such short notice, is it okay to do it anyway? I’m not going to get any training, let alone development or progression, and my original manger (now my manager’s manager) is toxic to the point other managers in the business are appalled at their behaviour to me, including the big bosses. And how believable is “structural changes” for leaving a job so quickly?

    1. Thlayli*

      If you want to quit, quit. It sounds awful. You can leave it off your resume entirely if it’s only a short peripd

      1. EscapePlz!*

        Oh, I’m absolutely quitting! I’m actively interviewing at the moment, but when it comes to a question of notice I’m contractually obliged to give them a week when I’m in my probation and four weeks when I pass it. But a week is pretty short notice, and so I’m not sure if I should offer to give two or three weeks as a goodwill gesture so they have some time to plan what they’ll do.

        I might try sending out a couple of resumes with it off though – that might fend off the question of why I’m leaving so soon after starting.

    2. MissDissplaced*

      I have to ask this, but did you really need training?
      I’m not being smartass, but I haven’t received “training” at any of my jobs for like the past 20 years that goes beyond generics like safety, payroll policy and company policy basics. So I’m just curious as to the industry or job that would require a lot of training.
      I work in communications, and generally I’m expected to figure things out on my own within my area of experience. At amost all of my jobs its been a case of hit the ground running, though of course there is a normal settle in period.

      1. EscapePlz!*

        Yes, training is absolutely needed. I understand your point, in that a lot of jobs are pretty obvious or are fairly similar in each company, but mine isn’t one of them. Especially as there are so many manual processes to accommodate the quirks of every client.

        And that basic stuff you talked about, like payroll/health and safety/company policy? She didn’t even bother with that much. I had to coach her in how to fill in my probation paperwork.

  214. Anonykins*

    I’m applying for a job that requires names of references as part of the initial application and need some advice. Most of my positions since college have either required minimal supervision (so, although I’ve used that boss in the past, probably not the strongest reference ever) or were in a different country and my bosses are super hard to get hold of (to the point where I have had it almost cost me consideration in the past.) I have two very recent supervisors down already but need 3 names. I am trying to decide between K who supervised me as a student worker for about 2 years (this is over 5 years ago now), or E a professor I had this semester in a graduate course related to the position I’m applying to. Points for K: she has written AMAZING letters for me in the past and directly helped my application get looked at. She is also somewhat likely to have connections within the department that houses the position, although I can’t say for sure. Points for E: he is a content expert and has worked with me much more recently. I am somewhat lacking in experience in some of the skills mentioned in the posting, so at the very least E can attest that I have studied the in the classroom, recently.

    What do you think? (On a related note I’m looking forward to a day when I have reliable references from post-college jobs who all live in my country…that’s a thing, right?)

    1. Thlayli*

      Personally I think the k sounds better. Call her first to give her a heads up and check her contact info tho

    2. Another Academic Librarian*

      Someone who has supervised your work is almost always a much better reference than a professor, so I vote for K!

  216. Clara*

    This is going to sound insane, but I think my manager is trying to give me a contagious disease so I can’t go on holiday.

    I’ve been working at the same company for the past ten years, and I became very close to my manager “John”. About three months ago, John retired, and management hired “Rita” to take over his role. Rita and I have some things in common, and we generally get along, but I noticed that every time she’s reminded of my upcoming 2-week holiday that John approved before he left, she’d act as if it was the first time she’d ever heard about it.

    Recently, Rita was diagnosed with a very contagious illness. It’s not life threatening or even particularly dangerous, but it’s something that would definitely torpedo my holiday if I caught it. Since she’s been diagnosed, she has been particularly touchy with me, rubbing her hands over my water bottle, touching my arm to get my attention, and always choosing to sit right next to me.

    Obviously I can’t prove her intentions, but this is weird, right?! What should I do?

    1. PolarQ*

      Say, “Get away from me.” And tell her you don’t appreciate her trying to ruin your vacation. She knows what she is doing. She reminds me of my ex-coworker and I regret never calling her out on her bs.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Be forthright. “I don’t want to catch your contagious disease. Please stop touching me.” “Why are you touching my water bottle? I don’t want to catch your contagious disease. Please stop.” “I don’t want to catch your contagious disease. Please stop sitting right next to me.” And if she continues, “are you trying to get me sick? I’ve asked you to stop (X behavior), yet you persist. Why?”

      1. ..Kat..*

        I am comfortable being ‘not a nice person.’ I would start sneezing on her – don’t forget to apologize each time. “Oh, sorry about that. Maybe if you didn’t sit so close.” Significantly increase your intake of garlic and onions at lunch and don’t brush afterwards.

  217. Windchime*

    I did what you’ve done; I called in sick. My interviews were in Big City so there was driving, parking, etc and I couldn’t do it on a lunch break. Desperate times call for desperate measures and I didn’t feel bad about it.

  218. R T*

    I am relocating from dc to atl and have been looking for a position in media for six months?
    I am degreed – worked for several networks and have published articles .. why can’t I find work? Is it about networking ?

  219. Tara Raboomdeay*

    This is late for a work-related problem, but if nothing else, I appreciate having an opportunity to vent. I started a new job last week that sounded perfect on paper. It’s doing data-entry, but it is more complicated than it seems. The employer seems O.K. with training. There’s a new specialized vocabulary to learn and we have to use an antiquated computer proprietary computer system that is the pits. Information is flashed on screen in front of us and we have to input corrected information, but we can’t see what we input. If you’ve inputted the data incorrectly, you can’t go back and change it after you’ve hit the “enter” button. Also, numbers are inputted using the 10-key keyboard off to the side. There are no numbers on the keyboard above the letters. I have to pass a series of tests involving both speed and accuracy by the end of the first two weeks or else I’ll be let go.

    It was part of a group hire thing and most of the people are at least halfway through the tests and there a couple who have already finished them. I’m only about one third of the way through. I’m very frustrated with the system (but it won’t change) and I’m very disappointed in myself that I’m not doing better. I keep making really dumb typos. And it is really hard for me to move back and forth from the numerical 10-key keyboard off to the side back to the main keyboard. I keep losing my place. I’m not doing well and really afraid that I’ll be let go after the end of the second week. I’m starting to have panic attacks about it. Today (Saturday) we have off and I could feel my heart racing while I was out running errands and shopping this afternoon.

    On the other hand I’m not sure that I want to keep working at a place where I’m all stressed out all the time, but this is one of the better paying jobs I’ve come across for someone with my particular skill set, even though it could theoretically get kind of boring after a while.

    Does anyone have any words of wisdom to help me calm down and get on with things at this new job? Words of encouragement? Should I just chuck it? Are there any online tutorials I could take where I could practice using a 10-key? Meanwhile, one of the trainers gave me a hand-out to take home and study this weekend, so I plan to do that and hope it will help.

    1. Bella*

      You have my sympathy. It’s not my field so I can only offer more general suggestions:

      Your mental health is more important than your job.
      I’m the cautionary tale for this one, my toxic job made me so ill I was unable to work for several years. There are other jobs (or ways of tightening your belt if nessesary) but your health is unique. It’s easier to find a new job when you’re healthy and don’t have a big gap on your CV/resume.

      Can you emotionally detach from your job?
      I know this is a big ask but your anxiety about your job will cause you to make mistakes which will make you even more anxious which will cause you make even more mistakes…and so on. Accepting their badly designed computer system as it is instead of getting frustrated by it is something to aim for as well but, again, most people would struggle to do that within two weeks.

      On the whole, I get the feeling that a company unwilling or unable to update it’s computer systems is going to have other problems as well so you might be better off working elsewhere, if possible. I suspect you’re not the only one there having problems with the system, even if they’re not outwardly showing it.

      You’re obviously conteintious and committed to your work which is a good trait for future employment.

      What ever you do, take a moment to just breathe whenever you feel anxious. 30 seconds of the old in-through-the-nose, out-through-the-mouth is better than 2 mins of trying to fix basic mistakes.

      1. Tara Raboomdeay*

        Thanks for your advice, Bella.

        I’ll stay as calm as I can, breathe, and do the best that I can. If it doesn’t work out I will know that at least I tried.

  220. Internal job application - tell boss?*

    I know that most of the advice for external job seeking is not to tell your current boss because that you don’t know how long the job search is going to be and for concerns that there may be negative repercussions (such as being treated differently knowing that you are currently job hunting, etc..). However, I also read that if you are applying for an internal job posting, the advice is almost universally the reverse – you need to tell your boss (at the very beginning without offer in hand). Doesn’t the same possible consequence apply for letting your boss know ahead of time whether or not it is internal or external? Our HR states that it is confidential until after you have accepted the offer for transfer. I’m pretty close to my boss and have a really good relationship but there’s too much uncertainty and risk because I don’t know what the reaction is going to be. I sort of feel like I’m in a lose – lose situation either way because there is a good chance it will leak anyways (good chance they will bring me in for an in person interview). Every article I’ve read so far doesn’t quite discuss what happens if you DON’T get the transfer. They just talk about what to do if you DO get the transfer (say you loved working for them, this is better for your career, try to document everything, etc…).

    Any thoughts?

    1. Bella*

      I think the important thing is that your boss hears it from you first.
      I’m pretty sure that there’s been quite a few letters to AAM around this subject. I definitely remember Allison offering some scripts on this.

      1. Internal job application - tell boss?*

        Thanks Bella! Appreciate that you’ve chimed in since I’m soooooooo late into the open thread. I do understand the importance that the boss hears it from me first…but I don’t want to disclose until job offer is in hand. I’m trying to wrap my head around why the exact same risk for telling your boss ahead of time prior to having your job offer in hand while external job hunting isn’t as emphasized when you are job hunting internally. I’m more trying to figure out the “when to tell” – it would seem that the exact same risks are posed while job hunting internally or externally when disclosing to your boss too early (prior to job offer in hand)…or am I off base?

    2. Sam Foster*

      Follow your company policy. Mine states that as a prerequisite for applying to an internal position I have to have informed my boss.

    3. Ann Anonoly*

      I think with an internal transfer, it is much more likely for your boss to find out and they’d want to hear from you first. Info you’re pretty certain it won’t get out before, I might compromise and tell my boss when/I feel I got offered an interview.

      I think there’s also the chance internally that your boss will put in a good word for you, which they can’t do if they don’t know. I suppose it depends a lot on the size of the company.

  221. Bella*

    UK people: iPlayer Radio has a half hour comic play up featuring a truly terrible manager played by Alison Steadman. It’s under John Finnimores Double Acts- WYSINNWYG.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06j6667
    It’s like some of the AAM letters in fictional form although I’m pretty sure this is not to way to deal with a bad manager in real life.

  222. Sailed Ship*

    I have been looking for a new job for the past six months, and received a verbal offer by phone on Friday. The entire process was swift; they contacted me the day after I submitted my resume and gave me an offer two days after I gave them my references (total time from submission to offer: two weeks). When the hiring manager called with the offer, I was so excited that I forgot to try to negotiate the salary before I said yes! It’s significantly more than what I make now ($10K/year more plus fantastic benefits). The head of HR sent me the official offer letter at the end of the day on Friday, and now I’m wondering if it’s too late to respond with a counteroffer. The offer was at the lowest end of the salary range in the posting, but even an extra grand or so a year would help me with paying off bills, loans, etc. My current job is highly unlikely to match this salary. So….do I respond and try to negotiate a higher salary, or has that shipped sailed?

    1. Ron McDon*

      I’m not clear if you already said yes?

      If so, you can’t go back and renegotiate the salary, that ship has sailed. After all, you’d be annoyed if you accepted the job and they then came back to you saying they wanted to pay you less.

      If you didn’t accept the job, but said you’d consider the offer letter, then you can negotiate salary before accepting.

      Good luck!

      1. Sailed Ship*

        I said yes verbally, so I’m leaning towards “the ship has sailed” too.

  223. Jessen*

    Ok I have to ask, how the heck do you wear any sort of work appropriate bra at all that’s not like a huge disaster of sweat and itching the entire day?

    So far I’ve tried:
    – Padded bras or foam pads basically mean I’m sitting there with a giant puddle of sweat on my chest all day.
    – Unpadded bras show through unless I’m wearing a very loose layer over a fitted layer over the bra. Again, sweat.
    – Anything involving silicone or anything sticky on my skin is an itchy disaster very quickly.
    – Fabric pads so far only seem to mean I can wear 2 fitted layers over my bra, rather than having to have the second layer be loose. I have definitely had on fabric pads (the bamboobies that r/abrathatfits seems to love) in my bra and worn a basic dress and unless it’s a heavy winter fabric you can see my nipples through it.

    Basically, the only options I’ve found are (1) A padded bra, which leaves me sweating and itching all day, or (2) an unpadded bra, fabric liners, and a tank top under my dress or blouse, which just leaves me super hot in general.

    1. saffytaffy*

      It sounds like the problem is the pads, and I assume you left out the “unpadded bra and a shirt” option for a good reason. But padded bras can be hot! Getting a bra that fits well both by size and cup shape ARE really helpful, but otherwise… they’re hot.

      1. Jessen*

        I think I was including that in the “tank top” category – basically anything where I have to wear a separate layer between my actual work top and my bra also seems to result in me being drenched with sweat all day from the extra layer.

  224. Ann Anonoly*

    Curious on sick days vs vacation days and usage. At our teapot facility, we have a generous allotment of sick days that do not get paid out upon termination and a generous amount of vacation days that do get paid out upon termination (this is all legal in our state). The issue is that Fergus (salary exempt) works from home one day a week, but occasionally calls in sick the day before the WFH day and then is unreachable for the 2 days, but only has a deduction of the one sick day and possibly makes up the WFH day on the weekend. Fergus has plenty of vacation days so it’s not an issue of needing a break, but having already used all vacation, which we would actually be lenient with. Am I wrong in thinking that in this scenario, sick days should be used for actual health (mental or physical) and a long weekend should use vacation?

    1. Nacho*

      We’ve got a pool of 20 days, sick and vacation combined. I never got places that offer sick days, since it just encourages people to lie about being sick.

  225. Katherine*

    Have a phone interview for job in city where I’m moving in July – need advice on how to handle!

    I had one of these last week and when I told them I hadn’t moved yet, they immediately dismissed me. I’ve been told that companies will wait for the right person (also hiring process can lag) so what do I do?

    I’m not comfortable lying…do I say I’m in between cities? I am visiting there over Memorial Day weekend and said in my cover letter I am available to interview there. My partner is currently there and my moving date is somewhat flexible.

    Appreciate advice on how to navigate this!

    1. Kathleen_A*

      July isn’t very far away, so if they aren’t in a huge hurry, this shouldn’t be a problem. If they are in a huge hurry…well, I don’t really think there’s much you can do to “navigate.” I mean, if they really need somebody by mid-June, they need somebody by mid-June, and that’s it.

      Just make sure you make if very clear that you really are moving there – that it isn’t a maybe, it’s a sure thing. Other than that, just be a great candidate, using all the tricks and tools you learned from AAM.

  226. EddieSherbert*

    Delayed posting – I’m partly here for advice, partly here for venting ;)

    My SO and I moved at the beginning of the month because they got a new job (yay!). Buttttttt I didn’t want to leave my job (which I love!), and their job is not nearby. So we found a place in the middle and we’re both commuting… over an hour one way. Which is totally normal for some people, but we used to live less than a mile from my office.

    Now I’m getting up 2.5 hours earlier than I was used to, driving 55 miles (one way), getting home later than I was used to, and then I have like 2 hours until I pass out for bed. I have no free time and I’m exhausted.

    I try to have everything ready the night before so I only get up about 45 minutes before I have to leave (and I spend a lot of that walking the dog). I’m getting up at the same time everyday (even if I don’t have to) so I get used to it. I’ve started drinking coffee (haha). I put away the screens about an hour before bed. And starting today, I’m trying to come in earlier (like 30-45min “early”) so I can leave earlier (I am salaried + have flex scheduling) and hopefully I’ll feel like I have more time after work. Any other ideas?

    1. saffytaffy*

      If it makes sense for your position and company, you could try fitting 40 hours into 4 10-hour days.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I love this idea, but it wouldn’t work for me (at least not every week!). :)

        However, I’m pretty sure I could get a work from home day if I plan my schedule correctly and pitch it well to my manager… (a lot of people in my office do work from home once a week – but I’m the photographer/videographer, so I tend to have a lot of appointments that require me being there in person).

    2. CM*

      You added an extra 2 (or more?) hours of commitments to your day, so of course you feel like you have a lot less time! It took me a long time to adjust to having a trafficky 45-60 minute driving commute after years of taking public transit (which felt more like free time to me). It was probably a good 6 months before I stopped being miserable about my commute, and 2 years in I still don’t like it but most of the time I’m OK with it. A work from home day once a week would probably help a lot if you can swing it. Other than that, I suggest trying to make your commute more enjoyable — listen to audiobooks or podcasts, sing at the top of your lungs, get a plush seat cover, whatever works for you.

  227. The Front Desk*

    I do the initial screening for the positions we’re hiring for and have been getting a ton of resumes titled “Linkedin-Generated-Resume”. I’m often inclined to trash them immediately, because if a candidate can’t be bothered to make their own resume, I assume they’ll be looking for shortcuts in the job, too. What are your thoughts?

  228. Litman*

    Wanted to get people’s thoughts here. I applied for a job and the instructions were simply to send your resume and cover letter to the listed email. I did this and the next day i noticed the email on the job posting was different. Do i apply again with the new email, or just wait for them to connect with me?

  229. Rachel*

    Is there anyone on here who works in merchandising/buying in a senior role? Anyone who can shed some light on the hiring trends in that field right now?

    I for the life of me cannot even get called to interview for more junior or mid-level buying or inventory supply management positions. This is frustrating the hell out of me. I’ve been an AAM reader for over a decade and I definitely know all the cardinal rules of resume writing: list achievements instead of responsibilities, write an awesome cover letter explaining why you’d excel and that expands beyond what’s on the resume, and be warm, friendly, enthusiastic and responsive. I have honed my resume and cover letter as much as possible to follow these rules, and I have almost 8 years of inventory management experience. Yet still, nothing. Not even a phone interview, and I often get a rejection within a few days of applying.

    I just don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I work in a retail store at the moment but I’m responsible for the inventory management of several major sections, and often have 80%+ of the qualifications they are looking for in potential candidates for a buyer or category manager role. I want to expand upon that area of my job and move into the next step up for buying, and I really connect the dots for them and hold their hands in my cover letter explaining how my I fit their qualifications and have succeeded in a very similar role up until now. The last time I job searched was about 8 years ago, and I NEVER had this problem back then; back then, hiring managers seemed WAY more okay with folks who might not have been a 100% match but were close enough, and they valued soft and transferable skills way more. I’ve never had such a hard time getting interviews before.

    It’s honestly gotten to the point where I’m starting to think that I’m up against just too many super qualified, senior buyers who have been doing the exact role for years and years (even though I’m not applying to senior positions) and that I’m just never going to be able to move up or find an opportunity where I’ll stand out against senior merchandisers. How am I supposed to be competitive against these people? Am I doomed to just never be able to move up or change jobs ever again? It’s starting to feel like it. If 8+ years of inventory management experience and a strong cover letter/resume aren’t enough to even get me called to interview, I don’t know what will be. Is it the fact that I technically am “retail” in my job? Do they think I’m just a cashier, even though I explain thoroughly in my resume/cover letter how inventory management and supply chain/merchandising are huge parts of what I do?

    I just feel a little lost at this point. Any insight would be so, so appreciated!

    1. stej*

      Hey, this is late but I hope this helps. Try reaching out to people on LinkedIn that might be able to speak to this. I also know that reddit’s femalefashionadvice subreddit has some regulars who are or have been buyers; maybe post on one of their General Discussion threads. (I think those are Tuesdays and Fridays? It’s been awhile since I’ve been there.)

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