open thread – June 29-30, 2018

by Alison Green on June 29, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Anonymous Educator*

    I feel a lot of the messaging around work we get, especially in the U.S., is about hustle—advocate for yourself, almost always try to negotiate, ask for raises, make a case for your own promotion.

    I have done that sometimes, but more often than not I’ve just been rewarded unsolicited for good work done. I’m wondering if that’s really so rare… or we just don’t hear about it as much, because people like to complain about problems more than they like to brag about non-problems.

    Has this happened to anyone else before? You just randomly get an unsolicited raise or promotion, for example?

    For people who are managers themselves, do you seek to reward your direct reports for good work done? Or do you wait for them to make a case for themselves of how they deserve some type of reward?

    1. Lyra (UK)*

      This was in the not in the US, but I got promoted and sent to the another country on a full expat package (all expenses paid, regular flights home, car, etc.) without asking for it, so I guess it does happen.

      I had no concept of hustle at the time, and I don’t have examples that are quite as extravagant since, but it was an amazing opportunity that was given to me out of the blue, because my bosses liked my work.

    2. Anon for this*

      I started a new job last summer. 5 months in, I received unexpected stock options and a month after that, I received an unexpected promotion to director and a $20k raise. It’s worth noting that I when I got the job offer, I debated negotiating because they didn’t have a matching 401k and the vacation was slightly less. However, the offer came in over $10k higher than what I had decided I would accept and I decided that was close enough. Knowing what I now know about my boss, I doubt I would have received the stock options had I negotiated (not that he would have been mad I was negotiating, but that he would have felt the extra vacation time would have been equal to the stock options. I think eventually they will be worth way waaaaay more than a couple extra days off!)

    3. ThatGirl*

      I’ve been well-rewarded for good work at annual reviews, but I’ve never just gotten random raises out of nowhere.

      I did get a sign-on bonus at my current job without asking for it, though I suspect it was because I told them I had another offer pending and they decided they really wanted me.

      1. designbot*

        I’d broadly say the same, but I tend to have to lay out a case really well at annual reviews that I’ve done X, Y, and Z, and that case often includes that I’m working at a level above my title, and I don’t get the raise that year, I get it the following year. So I’d agree that I’ve been well-rewarded for good work, but that it lags a year or even two behind the good work.

      2. College Career Counselor*

        My first year out of undergrad, I got a 20% raise and the second year an almost 20% raise, both completely out of the blue. In retrospect, I suspect this was in large part because I started at the absolute BOTTOM of the scale, and my boss probably advocated for me with HR, although he never said a word about it to me. At the time, I naively thought that was “normal” practice. Subsequent raises were much more in the 2-4% range throughout the remainder of that position. And, I was there long enough to begin bumping up against the top range of my salary band. That organization also did maybe 1 performance review in 10 years, something I also thought was “normal” and had to re-calibrate when I moved to my next position, which included supervising staff.

      3. hermit crab*

        Same here, generally speaking. Instead of the signing bonus, though, once I got nearly a 30% salary increase because the company raised the floor on my pay band! That was a good year.

    4. LQ*

      It’s been a little hit and miss. My first big promotion was totally unsolicited and a reward for good work done. Some after that were sort of, it’s about time as mutually agreed upon. Most of the promotions and raises that I have gotten at my new job (where indirect is king and personal ambition is looked upon with disdain) is mostly unsolicited. Sometimes things like hinting I’m bored or could really use more work, or I’d really like to try to do that work over there, or a friend telling a friend telling a boss that they know that I might start looking if I have to languish for much longer (if I’d said it directly I’d have been told good riddance, but that way I got a promotion and a move to a better location).

      I do think you’re right about no one talks about the and then it was perfectly ordinary and great stories so they are underrepresented.

    5. Cheesesticks and Pretzels*

      I have gotten promoted and raises before unsolicited. That was a really long time ago before it became an employers market.

    6. Persimmons*

      The only thing I’ve gotten without asking was COL raises, and even those were relatively infrequent in previous jobs. Now, we do get one every year, though it doesn’t always meet the current index.

    7. Emily S.*

      In my experience, there’s only been one time in my career when I got a raise without asking.

      Currently I work for a small family-owned company, and I’m glad I negotiated the salary I did when I came on, because I’ve had no raises in more than four years. (I’ve asked multiple times, and been told no, because business wasn’t great — not because I didn’t deserve it.)

      1. What's with today, today?*

        That’s us. 7 years and counting. They always say the economy is down and they can’t give raises, but we are also exceeding our monthly sales goals each month. Go figure.

        1. Emily S.*

          I feel you. I’m hanging on because in the next year or so, I’m looking to buy a home for the first time.
          My understanding is that for mortgage purposes, it’ll be better to have stayed with one job several years.

          After that, I will probably start a job hunt.

          1. SpaceNovice*

            At least where I am in the US, I had no trouble getting a mortgage after being laid off for two months due to a merger and starting a new job. It might be different depending on how expensive the mortgage is, though.

          2. Lindsay J*

            I’m not sure for mortgages, but for apartment leases I have found they care more about continuous employment than they do that it was at the same company.

            So for them if you worked 2 years at job 1, interviewed places, got a job that you started immediately (or with a couple weeks in between), and worked there for a year, they would view that as the same as being employed for 3 years at one job.

            It might be best to check with a mortgage broker, though.

        2. Emily S.*

          p.s. The other thing that sometimes bugs me is that the sales team and managers get large commissions and bonuses. The rest of us get a much smaller bonus at Christmas, which of course is better than no bonus, but it can be frustrating to consider.

    8. Not Today Satan*

      I’ve experienced the opposite. I’ve only ever gotten raises/promotions when I’ve asked for them, and at some places I’ve found that this leads people to think of me as “difficult” or “not a team player” (never mind that I’ve always advocated for people under me too). Yes, I’m a woman.

      1. A Nickname for AAM*

        I’m a woman too, and I’ve had the same experience. I have learned to just stop doing excellent work or extending myself, it saves me a lot of trouble in the end since the result will be the same no matter what I do.

    10. Tara S.*

      I’ve had bosses who just do not understand the value in doing things to keep your staff happy, and then are baffled when they have higher turnover (other than the people who are vested and just working to reach pension). My current boss has to be hassled into goodbye/welcome lunches, does not see the value in team boding activities like a yearly outing/lunch. My last grandboss blocked my promotion and then was all ruffled when I applied to outside jobs. I’ve had good managers who recognize the value in acknowledging good work (even if just verbally/via email, when that’s all the power they have), and they were great. But I’ve also had bosses who saw me as a cog in the machine and not only did not give unsolicited praise or rewards, but actively disliked some of these kinds of things.

    11. Samiratou*

      I have gotten raises unsolicited before, but I’ve been at the same company 15 years so I can’t speak to how that plays out in negotiating for a job start vs. raises/promotions/perks later.

    12. Windward*

      One place I worked upgraded me every two years. Also got a cash bonus once (non profit, this was a surprise). And a couple awards. All unsolicited.

    13. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Yes. it happened a few times at OldJob. I got a raise after only 4 months on the job. Then my manager created a new position for me in the department. Then I got another promotion (all unsolicited). At CurrentJob, I just got made permanent. The manager wanted me in the permanent spot and demanded that it be done. Again, totally unsolicited on my part.

    14. Bagpuss*

      I’m one of 4 owners of a business, and yes, we do give unsolicited raises. We let employees know that we review salaries in May (once we have our year end figures in April) just after doing the annual reviews / appraisals, and encourage people during the appraisal to talk about what they feel they have done well and to raise any salary requests, so we do both. (and when someone asks for a raise and we don’t give one, we will take the opportunity to talk specifically about what they could do differently / better.

      Part of our annual review involves looking at the salary list to check if there is anyone who is falling behind (against industry norms and in comparison with new hires for similar roles) as well as looking at merit rises.
      On a personal level, I’ve had a couple of times – in one case I was planning to ask for a raise but was offered one before I made the request (and it was higher than I had been planning to ask for!)

      I was invited to become a partner in the business, I didn’t apply.

        1. Bagpuss*

          We try. We have some awesome staff who have been with us for a long time I think my assistant is coming up on 2 years (with a brief gap when her children were small)

    15. Mbarr*

      I’ve gotten a couple of unexpected things in Canada:
      – At my first job, when I transferred from one city to another, my boss unexpectedly gave me a raise (with the higher taxes in the other province though, I didn’t see the difference, but still, yay!)
      – At another job, my boss pulled me into a meeting with my director and told me they were promoting me to a new title, which gave me a higher salary and more room to move up in salary too… But I was underpaid compared to my other colleagues, so technically they were just trying to help me catch up… But it was still a pleasant surprise.

    16. fromscratch*

      In 10 years I’ve never gotten a raise or promotion without doggedly pursuing it. I’ve only been promoted once and it took 6 months of planning and weekly meetings with my boss to document “progress” on the list of thing she identified upper management would need to see to justify the promotion and then another 6 months for it to actually go through.

    17. Jady*

      At a previous company I received very small raises annually a small amount above COL.

      At my current company you get COL annually. Most people I work with have expressed (to my own surprise) that this is *amazing* and the company is so “generous”.

      I had to fight for 3 years to get a significant raise after I’d taken on a huge amount of extra responsibilities. There is no promotional path available here, so I won’t be here after a couple more years at most.

      So yeah it’s been rare in my experience.

    18. Beatrice*

      In my 14 years of professional work experience, I’ve gotten one significant raise (not just ~3% COL) that I didn’t solicit, and two that I did. The one that I didn’t solicit happened a few years after the recession…pay in my industry started to climb and jobs started opening up again, and my company lost several good employees in my field to better paying jobs, so they reviewed and reset the pay scale for everyone in my field.

      I’ve gotten zero promotions I didn’t advocate for. I’ve found that I have to very clearly express interest in moving up and taking on additional responsibility and learning new things. If I’m not vocal about that and assume opportunities will come to me, I’ve found that people assume I’m not interested and I stagnate where I am. I’m pretty sure at least some of those assumptions are because I’m a working mom, and they’re annoying, but whether I’m right or not, I’ve accepted that I need to actively seek out growth opportunities and be vocal about my aspirations.

    19. Althea*

      I just had it happen. I had been unhappy about salary, because a number of people on our team are earning way out of proportion to what they do. A senior member of the team is supposed to have some management tasks but is bad at them – yet he’s earning 30% more than anyone else. A person who should be co-equal to me in rank was in a lower position yet doing all the work to be in a higher one. A new guy in a lower position who has been coming to me for guidance on most things, and came into the job with less experience than me, started at about my same rate. I’m in finance, so I know everyone’s salaries. I’d been contemplating approaching for an equity adjustment, and how to go about it because we get federal grant money and there are restrictions around this kind of thing.

      Then my boss in a 1-1 just said he’d noticed all the imbalances on the team and had already put through paperwork to give me a 5% bump. And my coworker was promoted to her rightful position with a big pay bump.

      He’s not a perfect boss, but that made me feel much better about everything.

    20. BlueberryHill*

      My company has multiple award programs. From simple acknowledgement via an app automated “hey good job, you!” to certificate/money rewards- with a set amount for ‘local’ accomplishment levels ($100, $250, $500) , or a undetermined, management choice amount for ‘global’ accomplishments. There are also team awards. Managers always acknowledge the award regardless of type, and anyone can nominate anyone to get one. At least once a year, reminders are made to remember to use the award systems to recognize our coworkers who went above and beyond.

    21. Anonym*

      Three unsolicited promotions, though from the same boss. They were appropriate, as I had taken on more work before each of them happened.

    22. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I got one last year. I started a new job in a different department, and during my 6 month review, my boss said I was doing a great job, but more importantly I was doing the work of a higher level role. It was a new team, and I was the second person hired, so we had a handful of open positions. He promoted me and I got a $10k raise along with it, which made the salary above market rate for my skills and experience.

      I didn’t do any negotiation for this new role, and sometimes I feel like maybe I should have, but then I think, what would I have negotiated? Before I accepted the position, I did some salary research, and like I said, the new salary was more than fair – in fact, most positions at my skills/experience level would not have given me more money at all!

      So I agree with you – we have a lot of talk about the hustle, and while it’s good to advocate for yourself, sometimes it leaves people like me feeling guilty that I’m being a “bad” person for not ALWAYS negotiating or something like that. I’m also a young woman in IT, so I have an added layer of feeling like I’m not “representing” enough for women in IT. But honestly, I think I got an awesome promotion, I have a wonderful boss and teammates, I enjoy my work, I have an actual career path here, and my company provides the type of benefits I value, so I’m just trying to enjoy that.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        *Wanted to add that I do think my situation is rare and that is one reason I am sticking with this job. Truly good managers are hard to find, and I don’t want to give up him or my team.

    23. Turquoisecow*

      I got a promotion/raise after 2-3 years at my old company. I didn’t ask for it, it was kind of a reorganization of the department. A coworker and I were originally called “specialists” and then after a reorg we were called “clerks” – but the actual job didn’t change. My coworker was asked to take a pay decrease (which she refused and chose to leave instead) but I wasn’t*. As part of the reorg, a few people were moved in from other departments as “clerks,” and a month or so later a new person or two was hired as a “clerk.” I think they (mostly my boss, who was a fan of mine) realized it was silly to have these new people with no experience have the same title as me, who’d been doing the job for a while. So I was promoted to “coordinator” and given a slight raise. I had sliiightly more responsibility, but not much. This was the last raise I got, as the company was in the midst of a pay freeze and on the decline. I didn’t tell any of my coworkers about it because I felt so bad that none of them got raises, even though it wasn’t a significant bump.

      (* I think she was slightly overpaid for what she was doing compared to me, as in I was a bit more experienced and skilled at the job itself but she negotiated for more/got a larger salary because she was older and had more overall experience – but this is speculation as I don’t know her actual salary.)

    24. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      This happened to my husband a few months ago. He got an unsolicited 15% raise.

      He thinks it was the result of two things:

      1) He had explicitly told his boss at the beginning of last year that he didn’t want to be in the role by the end of the year (because he deserved to be promoted). They hadn’t been able to find a promoted role for him, so his boss knew he had to put some effort in to retain him.

      2) Right before he got the raise, his team had hired another person at his level. My husband suspects that the new hire successfully negotiated a salary close to or above my husband’s existing salary, and they wanted to ensure that because he was more senior in the role they kept his salary above the new hire’s.

    25. Goya de la Mancha*

      A couple years ago, we were having major issues with an employee and the majority of her work was falling on my plate. I found out the day before payday that my boss had been advocating for me with HR to get me moved up a pay classification. Personally I would have preferred said employee being let go, but I guess you take what you can get ;)

        1. Goya de la Mancha*

          I got the classification bump and the employee ended up leaving on her own about a year later. After she left, they “re-organized” the two positions and I basically got shafted because of that, but my boss let me pick my own job description and the rest went to the new hire. She a dysfunctional supervisor, but I think I’ll keep her for awhile :-p

    26. Kat Em*

      Never happened to me at a job. Shoot, I had to fight just to get them to follow labor laws sometimes. I’ve had freelance clients plop high-paying work in my lap because I’d done such a good job with smaller things, though.

    27. Hush42*

      My first promotion was unsolicited. During my annual review my boss asked me what I wanted to do long term and then offered me the new position. My second promotion was somewhere in between. I eventually asked my boss for the promotion but only after months of him dropping not so subtle hints that he wanted me to take it.

    28. En vivo*

      I’m in the US, and just last year I received an unsolicited promotion. It was a very pleasant surprise! It didn’t come from my direct manager, however; it came from upper management.

    29. Sled dog mama*

      At my previous company we got COL in January every year, typically each manager got 3% of their total salary budget to distribute as they saw fit across their reports.
      At current company we get COL in July and I’m told it’s typically 2.5% but it’s an across the board raise (I didn’t get it last year since I had only been here 5 months). Earlier this year I received a 9% raise without asking, That raise puts me smack on average for my field/experience.

    30. Formerly Arlington*

      Nope. I’ve fought really hard for the promotions I’ve gotten–wrote proposals, achieved very lofty goals that solved business problems, attended training. And even then, the promotions from a salary perspective were not amazing. I have always gotten great performance reviews and that’s led to merit raises every year, but to get from, say, a Manager to Senior Manager, I did everything short of eat fire.

      That being said, I’m nice, eager to please and loyal. I have a friend who is much more blunt and she’s gotten 4 promotions in the 10 years I’ve known her. She always says she’s “undervalued” but is now in leadership. I wish I could be a bit more like her, but I think it would come across as phony as that’s just not my demeanor.

      1. Bibliovore*

        Nope. Fought for every dime, every title change. Love, love, love present position. Trying to remember a “nice job” from my supervisor that wasn’t solicited. Understand that this is the norm for academia.

    31. Mazzy*

      Unsoliticed raise this year of seven thousand dollars, and I was paid well already, but more importantly, I love you’re taking a step back from what might already be considered taking a step back and asking about the general direction of “the conversation.”

      Also you made me think, there is a line where, if you take too much of that “advocate for yourself” advice, it can become counterproductive. If it taints a majority of your interactions, you’re going to come across as narcissistic and unrealistic.

      I’ve gotten big raises whenever I’ve thrown myself into a job with blind faith and not thought about advancement. Yes, I know, not all workplaces. But enough that it’s become my MO.

      Caveat if you’re in a competitive environment or seriously over performing or bringing in revenue in a non sales job and are underpaid

    32. micromanaged rat*

      In my workplace and larger field, there are lots of people who do really good work. Some do it quietly and are fine with that. The ones who get a lot of recognition do hustle to bring attention to themselves. To get rewarded in my current workplace, you have to hustle to push back against the prevailing attitude of “you’re lucky you have such a good job, why are you asking for more stuff?”

    33. Frankie*

      Not in most of my jobs…I was definitely really underpaid for a few, and had to seek out other jobs with better salaries to make good gains. I’ve had to advocate for myself, for sure. That’s just been how it’s happened with me. Places would want to retain me because I was a workhorse, but never quite shook out to a good title or salary.
      I’m a woman and I look much younger than I am, so I think that’s a partial factor.

    34. toastedcheese*

      I am in the public sector and just got an unexpected cost-of-living raise based on a pay study, but the pay study focused on minimum starting salaries and I feel like my mid-career coworkers are getting screwed over as a result. (I’ve only been here for 2 1/2 years.)

      In my opinion, the only alternative to “hustle” is strong regulation and / or unionization. Unfortunately, I’m in one of three states where public sector unions are illegal.

    35. Chaordic One*

      Quite some time ago I had a state government job where I received several promotions within a 2-year period. It was the best job I ever had and I worked with a bunch of real pros. They were very smart and easy to work with. They seemed to know how much time a given task would take and they allowed for that. On the one hand, I recognize that there was a bit of a limited labor pool in the small town where that happened, but there were certainly other people who could have done the work.

      I had naively assumed that I lucked into a stable job that I might be able to retire from, but the head of the department was elected to the position and ended up having to resign in a scandal involving misappropriation of funds. (Money meant for one thing was spent on something else.) He probably could have withstood the scandal and held on until the end of his term, but he resigned instead. His replacement reorganized the department and a large number of people who had been hired when I was were all let go. It was nice while it lasted. It took me years to get back to where I made as much money as I did when I worked there.

    36. Safetykats*

      I’ve always gotten good raises and promotions essentially unsolicited – but I think I have (and always have had) a pretty good hustle about assignments in general – because I like interesting work, and I’ve never been afraid to say “Hey, I would be good at that. How about I do it?” (Or help with it, or whatever.) I don’t do that to get noticed – just to ensure that I have something challenging going on most of the time – but I think that kind of hustle does get you noticed, and makes you a logical candidate for the promotions and raises and awards.

    37. Tau*

      I actually haven’t had to ask for a raise yet…

      First job, we had a set progression and salary structure, with title bumps + small raises roughly every six months. The general thrust was that you might be held back if there were problems with your work, but you wouldn’t get accelerated for excellent work. I know this is against Alison’s recommendations, but honestly I found it something of a relief – I work in a male-dominated area and am not great at negotiating, and it was good to know that no one was earning more than me solely by virtue of gender or being more confident on interview day.

      Second and current job, I got a 10% raise after five months at this job – all our contracts had to be redone because of a change in company structure, and my new contract just had a higher salary. IIRC my boss mentioned he’d been extremely impressed with my work. I wasn’t expecting it because I wasn’t even out of probation and was already earning a good wage, or so I thought.

    38. Extra Vitamins*

      I got an award I didn’t know existed until I got it, for performance on something I gave low priority. It was uncomfortable, actually.

    39. JustaTech*

      At my current job I’ve gotten 1 unsolicited raise (new boss who noticed and cared about how much lower my pay was) and 1 unsolicited promotion.
      I’ve also gotten 1 solicited promotion/raise, when I went to my (different) boss and said “I am the only person left who has the skills to do our core job. ” (The next day I actually asked for the raise and promotion because I chickened out at first.)

    40. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’ve gotten annual raises every year at my company. I think they’re supposed to be tied to our annual reviews, but I often hear about the raise before my review has begun. Range tends to be 1-3%. This strikes me as a pretty common scenario, except perhaps for the timing.

      There are also some oddities that have happened around raises:

      1. We used to also get an annual bonus, variable amount, unrelated to individual performance. Our corporate parent wanted these bonuses to go only to people in sales, and our office had been an outlier for a long time. The year corporate finally took away the annual bonus from our office, management went to bat and got everyone a raise for the amount their bonus would have been. Since raises are calculated from base salary, I’m OK with having that money as salary every year.

      2. I started this job as a W-2 contractor. (That is, I was employed by an outside company to do work at my current company.) When I converted to a full time employee, I was able to negotiate my salary up a little bit by showing what I was making via the contracting company. My boss agreed to match, but I was still below market rate for the area.
      A few month later, there was apparently a global salary review initiated at our corporate headquarters. As a result, I was told that everyone in my department would be getting raises to bring us in line with local market rates. But we wouldn’t get the whole raise immediately – we got 1/3 immediately, 1/3 after 6 months, and 1/3 after a year. Unless something happened that they couldn’t. (Nothing happened, and the whole raise eventually came through.)

      3. After a couple of departures on my team, I got a promotion. My boss told me outright that management realized they hadn’t been taking enough steps to retain talent. Along with that realization came the one that I was doing work the next level up. The promotion comes with a raise, and like incident number 2 above, corporate is doing it steps – in this case, 1/2 now, and 1/2 near the end of the year. (Given they came through that time, I expect the same thing to happen this time.) (My boss doesn’t understand why corporate likes doing things in steps, either.)
      I feel rather mixed about this. On the one hand, I deserve this promotion. I’ve been wanting to ask for one for a while now, but didn’t outright ask for it, and that’s 95% on me. (The other 5% is the unusual amount of travel my boss has needed to do in the past year.) I’ve asked for other things, like higher level work, and it feels good that management recognizes that this means I’m both ready for and interested in a move to the next level. On the other hand, the timing of the promotion (right after two departures, at least one of which was because the colleague wasn’t getting promotions and similar recognition) makes it feel a little like the main purpose of the promotion is to keep me from handing in my notice next. (Wasn’t planning on it even before – I’ve got some other goals that work better if I’m not distracted by finding and starting a new job right now.) And I still feel like I should have asked directly at least what it would take to get a promotion well before any of this happened.

    41. CurrentlyLooking*

      At last job went from $x an hour to $2.5x an hour (in 10 years) without ever asking for a raise. Some years I only got a small raise and some years I got big raises.

  2. Namast'ay in Bed*

    Did anyone listen to the Savage Lovecast this week? They had a work related question that I don’t feel they answered very well, and I would have loved to hear Allison’s take on it.

    I’ll post the link in a comment, but the gist is that a woman’s boss did something so egregious that she took him to court and he was found guilty and put on the sex offender list. The issue is that the legal battle took over a year and she’s now trying to get back into the workforce but isn’t quite sure how to address her year off, since “I sued my last employer and had to take a year off to do so” probably would scare potential employers off, even if she was absolutely right in doing so.

    Dan had a guest from a workplace related column chime in, but I don’t think he did a very good job answering. It felt very vague and not realistic, just a lot of “oh they probably won’t care so much, if you can control the dialogue you’ll be fine, don’t be weird about it or bring it up too much, I don’t even notice gaps in resumes so they may not even ask”, etc, but he didn’t actually give a real, practical way to have that dialogue, and it just didn’t sound like he was giving advice based on how job interviews actually work, just general discussion points. It was so frustrating to listen to and I just wish she had written to Allison instead.

    What do you guys think? I can’t imagine that any hiring manager wouldn’t notice a year off, and “why did you leave your last job/why are you looking for a new one” is almost always the first question they ask. I think I would suggest something like “My boss grossly violated my privacy to the point that I unfortunately had to take him to court. The resulting trial took over a year but it has since been resolved and I am excited to get back into the workforce. What particularly excites me about this position is…” Maybe mention that he was found guilty to drive home that this wasn’t frivilous and she won’t sue at the drop of a hat?

    Sorry this is so long, the mediocre advice just got me fired up and I wanted to hear what the AAM community thought.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, I was thinking about that question, too. They seemed to think “Oh, well, if you just say you left for some vague reason, then that’s cool, and you won’t have to go into details,” and I was thinking that’d just make them even more curious/suspicious.

    3. AmazinglyGuileless*

      Wow, that’s a really tough situation. I wouldn’t give much detail at all. Maybe something just like “I unfortunately had to take care of a legal issue, but that is now resolved, and I am eager to re-enter the workforce.” The least amount of detail is probably best.

      1. Augusta Sugarbean*

        That kind of vague phrasing was my first thought but that could backfire, too. That could easily be interpreted as “I was arrested and the trial took a year”.

        I wonder if “family situation” could be close enough to the truth. A year-long court battle is certainly going to affect my immediate family.

    4. gecko*

      I think the gist of it was reasonable, just got the feeling that the workplace column guy wasn’t used to giving advice in a podcasty setting. I also agree with him to stay vague–I certainly wouldn’t use your script, actually, because it just gives so many details.

      At most, when the question “why did you leave your last job” comes up, I’d say: “Unfortunately, I was the victim of a crime at my last job, and left to take some time to recover. In that time off, I really rekindled my passion for [spreadsheets] and was able to take online courses to keep up my skills (if you did). I’m excited to get back to both the challenge and routine of working!”

      2. Rey*

        I think this is a good script. Especially if they call references or there are any news stories linking her, it could be bad to gloss over it and then have the employer find out from someone else. And I think “victim of a crime” is a better way to frame it, cause some people might make unfair assumptions if they know it was related to sexual harassment.

      3. WalkedInYourShoes*

        I like this answer, too! Or if the candidate can say, “I had to take time off to address personal matters.” When I am interviewing someone, I really don’t want to hear the details of the “personal matter”. It’s just TMI. I really want to hear what value can bring to the company. So, essentially, if the candidates makes it a “big deal” or go into detail, then I assume that the person is not focused on the professional side and still focused on the “personal matter”. That’s just my 2 cents.

      4. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Oh I like that a lot better. My only thought was that since it wasn’t time off to recover, and it sounded like she wasn’t really able to do anything for that entire year, that might come back to them at some point? But I definitely like the first part better than what I came up with.

        I hope the asker is an AAM reader and can get some advice from the backlogs!

        1. gecko*

          You’re right. If I was feeling some rapport I might put in some light humor/casual wording: “That kind of thing takes over your life with recovery and legal stuff for a little while…so I was out of work having my life taken over.”

      5. Jady*

        I like this as well, but I would remove the “at my last job” part just to simplify things and prevent more questions.

    5. the gold digger*

      Wouldn’t they find the story if they googled her name (which my boss did before he hired me)?

      I think the advice to be somewhat honest is best. I like this one a lot:

      Unfortunately, I was the victim of a crime at my last job, and left to take some time to recover. In that time off, I really rekindled my passion for [spreadsheets] and was able to take online courses to keep up my skills (if you did). I’m excited to get back to both the challenge and routine of working!”

    6. LilySparrow*

      Haven’t heard it, but if he was placed on the sex offender registry, she didn’t “sue” him. That’s a criminal offense.

      She can be quite straightforward without even mentioning that the crime happened at work.

      “Unfortunately, I was the victim of a crime. I spent the last year dealing with the trial and recovering. I’m happy that the case is resolved and I’m eager to put it behind me and move on with my life.”

    7. Mike C.*

      If the person you were fighting faced criminal charges, I don’t see why it would such a bad thing to mention if directly asked about it. Issues of false conviction aside, it’s pretty reasonable to say “yeah, I had some legal issues with a former boss that resulted in them being listed on a sex offender list so I’m just eager to get back to a normal workplace”.

    8. Melody Pond*

      Yes!!! I almost wanted to call and leave Dan a message begging him to call Alison instead, for future work-related questions!

  3. Tired*

    On my way to an interview. I am wondering what to say to the inevitable “where are you in your job search” question. The truth is that I have had several other interviews, and over the past two days two companies have requested my references. But I don’t say that, right?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Actually, I would say the opposite (fully open to hearing contrary opinions on this). If that’s actually the truth, it makes you seem you’re in demand, and they’d better move fast. I guess the downside could be if neither of those pans out and the company you’re interviewing with can’t speed up their own search, they may just write you off as probably going to go to one of those offers.

      1. Speechless*

        I came in to say this! As a hiring manager, I appreciate knowing what someone’s timeline is so I can react appropriately. I’ve been frustrated in the past when someone didn’t tell me right up front that they were close to offers elsewhere, because it meant that by the time we could make them an offer they were already off the market.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          My spouse was told honestly by an applicant (post interview) that he was really interested but had another offer on the table and needed a job very soon. Spouse was able to hussle around and give an offer the next day. This wasn’t setting up a bidding war, just a heads-up that the applicant’d likely say yes to a good offer that materialized (and he did) but couldn’t wait a week or three for it to materialize.

        2. mark132*

          Does this create the risk of not being considered for the position? How often have you stopped considering the person as a candidate due to this knowledge? (I’m not saying this is wrong on your part if you do, in fact it may make sense)

          1. Revolver Rani*

            I would never stop considering someone just because they were interviewing elsewhere. I don’t understand why you would. Strong candidates often have multiple options – that’s a reality. When I have a good candidate with an outstanding offer I do my level best to speed up the process – I don’t say “oh well” and write them off. After all, offers can be declined for any number of reasons, and sometimes candidates are really interested in my company, so there’s no reason for me to assume that an offer from somewhere else means the candidate is a lost cause. If I can’t get the process done fast enough, and the candidate withdraws and takes another offer, that’s too bad for me. But again, I can’t think of a single reason that having another offer would make me stop considering a candidate who was otherwise a good match.

          2. Violet*

            I have seen one case in which this has happened, but it wasn’t what you think. We had a potential candidate who had some promise

            1. Violet*

              Oops, I hit reply too soon! We had a candidate who had some promise, but they were a bit junior for the role we were looking to fill. We otherwise would’ve been willing to consider them, but they did have an offer already in hand. Since we were earlier along in the process and would’ve had a difficult time speeding it up enough so they could consider the offer, we decided not to invite them for an interview.

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      Why wouldn’t you? They know you’re looking, and they want to know if they need to really jump on your resume if they like you, or if they can take their time.

      It’s not a big deal to share that you’re searching and in later stages with other companies.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I think you vaguely tell the truth, that you are in the later stages with a few other companies. I have a candidate right now who has another open offer and another one pending, and we can only give him till COB today to accept (which was a generous extension). If you want to have some flexibility if you get into that situation, you should not lie and say you aren’t talking to anyone else now.

    4. Lyra (UK)*

      I’d be straight up about this – it’s far from a negative. If you were one of my top candidates, it would give me the information I need to try and ensure I don’t lose you to another company by speeding up the process where I can.

    5. gecko*

      It depends. At this point, you could say, “I’m pretty deep into it, so I might need a bit of an accelerated timeline, if you’re interested–I’m excited about this position/company and want to keep talking!”

    6. WalkedInYourShoes*

      I have been there several months ago and told the future employer that I was in the later stages of the interview process. So, they bowed out. Unfortunately, the other two employers did not pan out. So, lesson learned, I state now that I am interviewing with a few companies in all stages. Until a company gives me an offer and the background check passes; then, I sign it, I am still in the interviewing stages. Or if you want to state that you are interviewing with well-known companies. On the other hand, if you mention that you are interviewing with BigCompany that is known to take 6-9 months for the interview process, they may drag the interview process out as well. No hurry for them.

    7. AdAgencyChick*

      I think whether it causes them to write you off or speed up the process depends entirely on how strong their applicant pool is. If you are one of many strong candidates, they may focus their attention on others once they hear you are nearing the end of the process with another company. But I’ve definitely been in a situation where I’ve told a company that I was nearing the offer stage elsewhere, and they decided to forego my meeting with someone they otherwise wanted me to meet with before making an offer. My niche of advertising is small enough that I’m guessing they didn’t have any other qualified candidates!

  4. Llama Wrangler*

    How does your field define appropriate business length for skirts/dresses?

    I am changing fields from a more laid back one to a much more rigid one, and trying to figure out clothing norms. The thing I’m having a hard time with is trying to figure out what appropriate length skirts/dresses are. (I know one firm in particular used to require all dresses hit the knee). I’m short, but I’ve still had a very hard time finding professional looking (and affordable!) dresses and skirts that go to my knee — most seem to hit 1-3 inches above. And my calibration feels extra off because I live in a major city where all kinds of things fly as “professional” depending on your field. So, if you work in a office or field that tends towards more professional, what have you seen as the norm?

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      I’m at an office now that is totally fine with me rocking a t-shirt and jeans (today’s shirt – a lobster holding drumsticks with the caption Rock Lobster), but a previous office that required business wear had it written out that all skirts must cover at least 3/4 of the thigh.

      I’m pretty short, and I’ve found some good options on ThredUp for pretty cheap. Usually they give measurements too, which is great as a short person with a long torso. I usually do the sit-down test as well- if I sit down normally, 1) does the side/back slit often included in a dressy skirt ride up to inappropriate levels and 2) could you feasibly see up it.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          MIL bought it for me from Rhode Island because she thought the drumsticks were knitting needles. /confused shrug

          1. PB*

            That’s kind of adorable, though originally I was picturing “drumsticks” as chicken drumsticks, which would be much more confusing.

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              I couldn’t bring myself to break her heart and tell her it was supposed to be a play on Rock Lobster, though as she gave it to me she did question why the shirt would say Rock Lobster when the lobster has knitting needles…

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              Yeah, I didn’t have a good response, and just rolled with it. She does stuff like that a lot.

            2. Falling Diphthong*

              It’s an elaborate set up for “Knitters rock!”

              Or “Knitters rock with crustaceans!” which somewhere, somehow, is a hilarious in-joke everyone gets.

              1. Environmental Compliance*

                I’d pay to have someone make a cartoon out of a bunch of dancing knitting lobsters and would proudly display it on my wall.

    3. Lyra (UK)*

      Having just changed from a very casual to a smart casual office, I’d say err on the side of caution your first week, keep an eye out for the going norms, and purchase additional items if you need to that first weekend. This was my strategy (in an attempt to avoid wasting money on clothing that’s too formal or not formal enough), and it seems to be working pretty well.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          Yes, that’s my plan! I am going to restock my blouses and pants first, and then work on dresses and skirts once I get a sense of the norms. The challenge is that this firm relaxes the standards a little during the summer, so I may get used to summer norms and then have to reboot again in the fall.

          1. Autumnheart*

            You could also consider buying skirts and dresses that hit below the knee, and then get them hemmed to hit at or just above the knee. It might add $10 or so to the cost of the garment, but that might be worthwhile.

            My workplace at Major Company has a business casual environment (jeans and nice shirt are acceptable every day) and I saw someone the other day wearing a dress that barely covered her butt. That is definitely Too Short. I’m skirting, nyuk nyuk, the rules today by wearing a tank top with wide straps (it’s going to be 98 today with a heat index of 110), which a lot of women do, and typically one will have a denim jacket or lightweight cardigan to make it work-appropriate. It also helps thread the needle between being comfortable in office AC and not sweating to death once you get outside.

          2. Gloucesterina*

            Hi Llama Wrangler – Congrats on your new role! Does this firm have a written dress code that they refer employees to?

            1. Llama Wrangler*

              They do, but it is vague as to what appropriate length is (just says things should be appropriate length).

    4. AnonGD*

      If you feel safest with everything hitting the knee– I’d get cheap/secondhand skirts a little bit too large so you have the length and then spend a little bit to have them tailored in. In doing that, you can ensure the tightness of the skirt matches what’s common for your workplace as well.

      In my experience, I’ve always been fine with the fingertip rule, which is about ~2 inches above my knee, but I’ve also not worked in a hyper-conservative industry.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        The getting large secondhand skirts thing is a great idea! Hadn’t thought of getting them taken in rather than tailoring for length. Thanks!

      2. Washi*

        Omg people recommending the fingertip rule for work makes so much more sense to me now. My fingertips barely fall below my butt, and I always just figured other people just have much more casual workplaces than I do.

        Anyway, I agree that 1-2 inches is a good rule.

        1. LilySparrow*

          Yeah, I have long arms & legs but a very short torso and fingertip length for me is like 4″ above the knee. I was never comfortable in skirts that short, even back when I had the gams for it.

          1. Sally-O*

            Yea, my fingertips are about 10 inches above my knee. (Normal arms, long torso.) It would be scandalous at work if I wore something that short!

        2. Autumnheart*

          Are you very long-waisted? I ask because I am very short-waisted and my fingertips fall to mid-thigh. (Which would still be too short for work anyway at my job.)

          1. LilySparrow*

            Well, high-waisted and long in the rise. But all sleeves are bracelet-length on me because of my monkey arms. I’d have to buy all my shirts and suit jackets at least 2 sizes too big to get sleeves the “proper” length, so I just roll them or wear them pushed up.

            The point being that rules like “fingertip length” are ridiculous because people’s proportions are so different. That’s the dress code for skirts and shorts at my daughters’ school. One daughter looks just fine and appropriate. The other is only allowed (by me) to wear Bermudas to school because her legs are so long and skinny that normal shorts look totally inappropriate. Like, she flashes underwear every time she sits down, even if she “passes” dress code.

    5. Catalin*

      It may help to look for ‘midi’ length skirts/dresses. I get mine from Amazon. As for length by office, I’d say a general rule is that when sitting down, less than three inches above the knee is showing.
      Personally, I find the length of a midi or full-length skirt quite liberating, as it allows me to move around without being self-conscious about what I’m showing whom.

      1. Tara S.*

        Hooray for midi skirts! I know we’ve harped on this before, but some of the “work wear” that stores try and sell and crazy. How is something that short even kind of appropriate??

      2. Llama Wrangler*

        I think part of my problem is that I feel much more comfortable with the look of skirts/dresses that are above the knee length — because of my body type, I find pencil skirts and sheath + shift dresses much more flattering than options with a more full skirt (if I’m going to have to go into professional “uniform mode” that is), but I’ve had a hard time finding that cut in a longer length. I think I’ll try the above suggestion to get things in a larger size so they’re the right length, and then get them taken in.

        1. Tara S.*

          I love pencil skirts, but finding ones long enough, with a non-jersey fabric thick enough, it SO HARD these days. If anyone has brand recs, would also love to hear them.

        2. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

          Try ‘tea length’ instead of ‘midi’. Google brings up some promising results under ‘tea length pencil skirt’.

          1. Llama Wrangler*

            Yes! Thanks! Also realized that I might have some luck trying to figure out where the Orthodox Jewish women shop, since I see a lot of them in below-the-knee pencil skirts.

    6. LQ*

      I’m much more comfortable with skirts that go to my knee or just below but I’m very very tall so I aim for midi length skirts which end up being just about right for me. Part of it might be to aim for a different style and length, like buying a “tall” skirt that is designed to be a few inches above the knee might fall just right for you. And then when I find them I buy like 4 of them and stash them away.

    7. Emily S.*

      Top of knee, but 1-2″ over the knee would be fine.
      I’m in a midsize city in the Midwest, if that’s helpful. Pretty conservative in general.

    8. SoCalHR*

      our handbook says skirts should hit “mid thigh when seated” – I’ve never really tested this measurement out though.

    9. Kowalski! Options!*

      Yeeeeeaaaars ago, I had a temp job at Lloyds of London, and the rule of thumb there was: if you kneel on the floor and the hem hits the ground, you’re good. Any shorter, and you’d be sent home. I’m a bit on the short side, so that’s true of a lot of skirts, but it’s been a useful rule of thumb.

    10. WalkedInYourShoes*

      Depending on the region and the industry. However, if you interviewed at the company already, what did they wear? Or you can look online on the company’s site to see what type of attire the leadership team is wearing. One may not see the full attire, but it may show if the executive team is a wearing the same colors, conservative clothing? button-down shirts? Or you can go on YouTube and search for the company. That’s what I normally do when I transition into a new industry or role. I check everyone out. I don’t want to stick out like a sore thumb. I also ask the person who is scheduling the meeting or the interview, do women wear a suit, dresses, skirts, close toe shoes. But to be safe, I have my go to blue suit nice jacket and pants, closed toes shoes. But I have not worn hosiery in 18 years. hahah!

    11. Camicazi*

      Have you ever looked at eShakti.com? I work in a pretty relaxed office, but I prefer skirts to hit my knee and have trouble finding that (I’m tall), but on their site you can pick custom lengths for ANY dress / skirt etc. You kind of have to hunt because they have a ton of styles at once, but the customizability is really really nice!

      3. Jaid_Diah*

        I’ve been wanting 100% cotton button down shirts and this… these options are really nice! Bookmarked!
        Thanks!

    12. BlueberryHill*

      Measure yourself. Then if you buy stuff online you will have a better idea as to where it will ‘hit’ above your knee. Don’t invest in anything until you see how your office dresses. Boden, Lands End, eShakti are all good places to look for more conservative lengths.

    13. Jane of all Trades*

      Second other people’s recommendations to err on the side of formality but – Calvin Klein has a seemingly endless supply of office appropriate dresses. For me they are long enough and not too tight. Plus, if you want to be more formal you can wear dark pantyhose!

        1. Jane of all Trades*

          Great idea! Also Lord & Taylor’s website, and some of the discount stores like Century 21 and TJ Max usually have discounted CK dresses.

    14. A tester, not a developer*

      It was written in our dress code handbook that skirts were not to be more than 2 inches (5cm) above the centre of the knee. We also were not allowed to wear tops that exposed the ‘hinge’ of the shoulder. And yes, managers would sometimes come by and have you raise your arm to make sure the pivot point was in fact covered.

    15. LilySparrow*

      I used to work in quite conservative law firms, and 1″ above the knee wouldn’t be unusual or even noticed, probably. Three inches would look out of place in that environment.

    16. Tara R.*

      I’m in a casual industry, but I’ve found that my short dresses look a lot less short if I wear very opaque tights with them.

    17. LateToTheBBQ*

      I definitely agree with those who’ve recommended scoping out what your colleagues are wearing – especially women slightly senior to you.
      That said, I think 1 inch above the knee should generally come across as professional.
      One caveat – I happen to be pretty tall, so skirts/dresses even a smidge above the knee still give the impression of showing a LOT. I stick pretty much to right at the knee (standing), so if anyone is like “holy legs batman!” I have good old “knee-length” to back me up.
      Bottom line, do I *feel* confident and professional in what I’m wearing? That’s going to sell it far more convincingly than walking around with a ruler to prove that I am, in fact, appropriately dressed.

    18. Mary Smith*

      What I tell interns (I work in higher ed):

      Put your fingers down by your sides, skirts no shorter than fingertips (and, if you have a pear shape, longer than that usually)

      Put your hand in the “pledge of allegiance” position on your chest, now turn your hand parallel to the floor. Your work shirts should cover most of this and nothing should show below your pinky finger.

    19. Hamburke*

      I refer back to my Catholic School days for this – if you kneel and the skirt is more than 2 inches from the ground, it’s too short. (fyi – much easier to do in a kilt than a pencil but works the same)

      My office is really casual but I don’t wear skirts to work – the AC vent blows under my desk…

  5. Blue Anne*

    I started a new management job a little over two months ago, on the condition that I could have pink hair. Boss was enthusiastic when I asked, so I accepted their offer. I’m very happy here and I can be myself. Board members have been slowly meeting me as they dropped by, and I’ve been getting great feedback from them about the new financial reporting I’m doing, etc. Awesome! Did I just find my dream job?

    Well… a couple weeks ago, I was sent out to one of our clients for a couple days. Trip was fine, stuff got done, no problem. Guys at the client factory were perfectly polite. I did notice that they had safety posters up, half with a cartoon man and half with a cartoon woman, and the cartoon woman had pink hair. I pointed it out to one of the guys, you know, “ha ha, you guys already have me up on your posters, I’m flattered!”

    Then, this week, someone used the suggestion box on our website to complain about my hair. They suggested that we not send anyone out representing the company with pink hair, including the comment “it is unprofessional to have someone visit the customer with pink hair especially in this mostly male dominated industry.”

    Which, you know what. Eat it. And, the colleague who went with me on this trip (who is great) has pretty extreme tattoos, including a rotting hand squeezing his neck. That was fine. Pink hair, no.

    Sigh. My boss had a great reaction (“screw em, be yourself, I encourage this”) but now I’m paranoid. Boss thinks it was from the guys at the factory I visited, but part of the message makes me think it’s someone internal. So now I’m like… was it one of these coworkers who I’ve been getting along really well with? A board member who has been giving me nothing but good feedback? Which one of these people who is being super nice is actually a passive-aggressive sexist buttface?

    Argh argh argh argh

    1. saffytaffy*

      ESPECIALLY IN THIS MALE DOMINATED INDUSTRY. PINK HAIR WILL ENDANGER US MEN IN THIS MALE DOMINATED INDUSTRY.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Right?!

        Next time I’m out at a factory I guess I’ll make sure it’s blue? If I have sterotypical male colors that should be fine right?

        uuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh

      2. Myrin*

        I WAS JUST THINKING THAT

        What even is that supposed to mean? If Anne in all her female-ness can exist in this male-dominated industry, so can her hair!

        1. Blue Anne*

          Right! Like… what is the desired solution here? Hair of a color that is not so obviously female? Blue or green? Or back to brown? And then getting rid of any other indications that I’m a female wandering around these factories I guess? Brown hair, boxy clothes, no makeup, try to speak in a deep voice? Crew cut? Or just leave the industry I guess?

          I mean, all of that is nutso slippery slope stuff, but it just makes me so mad.

          1. NaoNao*

            It means (and I DO NOT endorse this p.o.v) that since you’re dying your hair “unnatural colors” you “must” be “asking” for extra male attention. I detest that idea but I’ve seen it all over the underbelly of the internet. There’s this idea that it’s similar to, say, a tongue piercing, a “pin up girl” tattoo, or anything else that could read as suggestive in terms of clothing or body decoration.

      5. Yorick*

        I assume that means that it’s an internal person, and they think the male-dominated industry will judge the company for sending out a woman with pink hair.

        3. Cousin Itt*

          Too subtle, start conducting all your visits astride a noble unicorn you’ve summoned from the dark forest with your womanliness.

        4. saffytaffy*

          rainbow streaks with one of those great undercuts and, like, a vulva shaved into the undercut.

          1. Blue Anne*

            Ha! Love it.

            I did wear my “a woman’s place is in the house – and senate” shirt to work yesterday as a small protest.

            1. Camellia*

              Good for you! My grown, Assistant Director daughter, mentioned that she wanted to get a tattoo on her wrist that says, “I am the dragon.” My first thought was the meme that says, “Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.”

        5. NotInUS*

          I have purple hair (not all but about 20-30%). I was a little concerned about the reaction at work when I did it but it was much the same as your boss. I didn’t tell anyone I was doing it and I dress very conservatively. Rock your pink hair or full on rainbow streaks – it’s hair! It’s meant to be fun!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      That sucks. Unfortunately, clients can be conservative, finicky, passive-aggressive, sexist, etc. I’m glad they still hired you if you do good work. If the people at the factory don’t want you, the company can send someone else. Or, if they can stand to lose the business, just stand by you and keep sending you (if you want to still go).

    4. Murphy*

      I’m glad your boss has your back.

      Honestly, I’d try not worry about it. You’ll go crazy if you suspect everybody. Just keep being awesome. *funky hair color high five*

    5. irene adler*

      I’m betting you are correct- this is an internal complaint.
      It’s someone with little spine and a lotta spite.

      Keep rockin’ the pink! And kudos to your boss for supportin’ ya!

    6. Technical_Kitty*

      They are not your problem. If it is someone higher up and they couldn’t be bothered to tell you to your face or bring it up with your boss, instead putting in an anonymous note (the height of cowardice if you have nothing on the line by saying something), then they know they aren’t in the right. If it’s a coworker or someone you do not answer to, then ef them. Their opinions about appropriate hair colour are not your problem. Just like when someone chooses to wear a pound of makeup every day or dress to a specific aesthetic (they love pink or black or brown or western wear or whatever), it’s no one else’s business.

      1. Hope*

        This is partly what I was going to say. If the person doesn’t have the guts to say something to your face about your hair, F them and keep rocking your awesome hair.

    7. Lyra (UK)*

      Ugh. Male-dominated industry. Hold my beer while I dry heave.

      More to your question – if they’re too cowardly to put their name to their feedback, I say you waste none of your precious brainpower on figuring out who they are.

      But my sympathies on the anxiety/paranoia this would have created for you. Ugh again.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Yeah. This is smart. I’m going to let myself stew today and then try to forget about it. I know it doesn’t really matter, given that my boss supports me and all the feedback I’ve gotten to my face has been good.

        It’s hard to get rid of that paranoia though. Ugh.

      2. Totally Minnie*

        Lyra is spot on. People who think they’re right sign their name to their statements.

    8. Stephanie*

      Ugh, that sucks. I have a coworker with red hair (like a nonnatural shade) and she goes to supplier factories all the time with no push back (to my knowledge).

    9. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That person is an asshole and your boss is cool. Just repeat that. Also, I think in your situation, it is ok to trust that the people with whom you’re getting along are actually cool people, because why on earth would they drop in a random suggestion on the website without saying something to your boss?*

      *Yes, I know people do these things, but I encourage you keep on as you’ve been keeping on.

    11. CBE*

      Doncha know that in a male dominated industry all the women are supposed to dress like the eye candy they are supposed to be?
      How dare you do what you want instead of pleasing all those men. After all, they dominate!
      (SHUDDER)

    12. gecko*

      Ugh. Sounds internal absolutely and likely another woman, who’s being a real jerk and couching it in vaguely faux-feminist language.

    13. SoCalHR*

      Because without the pink hair they wouldn’t realize you were, gasp, a woman?!?! Glad your boss supports you on this!

    14. WalkedInYourShoes*

      I am glad that you have a supportive manager and that it’s been great for you! Like everyone here, ignore that anonymous complaint. That’s so old-fashioned. I love pink hair and the complainer needs to focus on the work. You have proven that you can do the job and whatever color your hair is will not affect your work. :)

    15. Delphine*

      Are there any women you work with who know you were visiting a customer that day? This sounds like a woman (or like someone trying to sound like a woman) who is concerned that the impression you have on the customers/men working there will come back to her somehow (directly or indirectly). She’s still wrong, but I wonder if it’s not actually the customers.

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        I was surprised there weren’t more comments like yours. I agree, I’d bet cash money this was a comment from a woman. I think all of the comments critical of men in this thread is misplaced.

        Or it could have been a woman at the client site, generally speaking though, a client would not complain or comment via a company website feedback form, they would make comments to one of their contacts.

        1. Blue Anne*

          Yeah, there are a few. I’m really trying not to suspect them though because I work with them constantly all day when I’m at the office.

          At the client site, I didn’t have contact with any women at all, which is another (much smaller) reason I’m kind of thinking it wasn’t from the client.

      2. A tester, not a developer*

        “I had to dress like a man when I started in this job, or else no one would take me seriously. It’s not fair that SHE gets to be awesome and not get hassled for it” – The Woman who complained, I bet

      3. LilySparrow*

        This was my thought as well. Something about the wording suggested an older woman. I suppose it’s the “tsk, tsk” tone.

        Like, you may not have interacted with any women as client contacts, but what about reception or someone’s assistant?

        Busybodys are gonna be busy. It could be someone who only saw you in passing and has been clutching her pearls ever since.

    16. Shrek says o*

      If complainer is unhappy, they can always leave and work someplace else. It is not YOUR hair they have a problem with; it is the company policy.
      Don’t view this as ONE IMPORTANT COMMENT. Instead, view this as complainers gonna complain, this week your hair, next week it will the the A/C temperature, or someone will wear open toed shoes, or the type of coffee.

      1. Frankie*

        Yeah, there are just some sticklers around–to give you more peace of mind, I’d just file it away in “stickler” territory (regardless of the actual motivation) and be glad that person’s not your boss.

        Super annoying comment to get, though. Of course the man’s tats didn’t warrant such alarm.

    17. Anxiety Anon*

      Wait – pink hair on a woman is more bothersome than a visible tattoo of a rotting zombie hand on a man? What the actual …

      1. Thursday Next*

        This is what I was thinking as well…I gotta say, I would be creeped out by that tattoo, and maybe I’m an old fogey, but I would definitely find it unprofessional for many jobs.

        2. Blue Anne*

          Yeah. I mean, I like this colleague and I have no problem with his tattoos. And I’m glad that others here don’t either. But the hypocrisy bugs me. When I go into the grocery store, parents say “look, she’s like a fairy!” to their kids. When he goes into the grocery store, parents get their kids away from him. But I’m the problem?

          (The story behind his tattoos is that an illness runs in his family and he’s watching it destroy his father at a young age. It’s a reminder to him to make his health a priority because disease is waiting to take him away from his loved ones. Very cool. But potentially scary-looking.)

    18. Anono-me*

      Please increase pinkness of your hair as much as you possibly can.

      Your boss is response to you was great. But, since there is the possibility that this message is from an internal person; I actually think that your boss dropped the ball. (I know your boss thinks the comment came from the factory people, but there’s no way to know and it might be someone internal.) I think a brief meeting to say “This is our dress code, period. This used to be a boys club, it’s not anymore. Get over it.” would have also been good.

      Also, if I worked with you, I would totally add some pink streaks to my hair if I heard about this. ( Please keep in mind that most of the outfits at Talbots are too flashy for me.)

    19. Brownie*

      I’m leaving soon for a hair appt where my hair will become a brilliant shade of cotton candy pink. Be yourself, don’t worry about the people who’re complaining. My bet is it’s a stifled jealous person or someone with very outdated ideas about how women should act/dress. Either way it’s their problem, not yours. Strut your pink hair proudly!

    20. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t let this take up too much space in your brain or chew up a lot of your time. There are a lot of people out there who get stuck on an irrelevant detail and LIVE THERE. Think of this as practice for how you will handle this type of narrow thinking in the future.

      One really good thing to focus on is that the complaint has NO substance. Not only does it not involve the quality of your work, it’s not even tangentially involved with your work. The complaint would have some merit if they said they saw you driving recklessly and irresponsibly several times while on the clock. All this complaint does is speak for other people and we all know what happens when we speak for other people. Usually what is said is no where near the message other people are actually stating. It just doesn’t go well, at all. So the response here is, “Thank you for giving voice to our clients as we know they are defenseless and unable to voice concerns themselves.” (/snark )

      Your boss has your back. You can be walking three feet off the ground because you win this one. The best defense here is to approach everyone with the expectation that they will act like a competent adult professional. If you are losing time trying to figure out who wrote the complaint, that time could have been spent finding new ways to project your expectations of professional behavior.

      I can honestly say if it had not been the pink hair it would have been something else. Because it always is. I have heard stuff about my weight, my gray hair, my footwear, my lunch, my car, my ring…. I can go on. Master the art of the blank look, you know, that looks that says, “WTF are you talking about, you are not making sense. This is important, WHY?”.

    21. Scubacat*

      Pink was considered to be a masculine colour in the early 20th century. Take that oh sexist buttface!

      Seriously though, WHAT nonsense OP. Wear your hair in all its fantastic pink awesomeness.

    22. ..Kat..*

      This is one person’s opinion – and someone with no power (a manager would tell you or tell your boss to tell you that your hair was the wrong color, not put a complaint in the suggestion box). ONE person! Ignore it. Be yourself. Your boss has your back.

    23. passive-aggressive sexist buttface*

      I suggest, for your own sake, you open your mind to the possibility that having pink hair, or hair that is any non-natural color, or tattoos, is not a wise choice. I fully understand that my point of view is unusual. But I’ve never understood why anyone would want to dye their hair, pierce their organs, tattoo their skins, or wear provocative outfits to work.

      When I’m at work, I configure my appearance to blend in, so that everybody’s focus is on the job and not my dramatic style statements or other distractions. When somebody shows up with a personal style presentation that announces a bold blast of individuality, I always think to myself: Here comes an attention hog … I guess I must reconcile myself to managing this narcissist’s personal agenda instead of paying attention to the job we’re supposed to be doing.

      2. NeverNicky*

        Hmm.

        I have my nose pierced. My hair is not its natural colour and hasn’t been for years. And whilst I don’t dress provocatively, I wear 50s retro style every day with red lippie.

        As I work from home, alone, that’s hardly being an “attention hog” – that’s me being me, finally comfortable with my style after nearly 50 years on this planet.

        And if I am displaying “a bold blast of individuality” – fab. I’m paid to be creative, to write engaging content, to put out attention grabbing press releases. But I’m also paid to write evidence based, serious science. And guess what? I can do both. My appearance has nothing to do with my work abilities.

  6. self employed*

    Where do you go for contract / short-term freelance writing jobs? I know about FlexJobs. I am specifically looking for content marketing type of work, just more project-based or short-term stints. Thanks!

    4. KatieK*

      I’ve used Upwork specifically for Content Marketing gigs. There are a ton of cut rate people competing for bottom of the barrel stuff, but if you can get designated with their “top freelancer” status (completing a certain number of projects with a certain rating) you can do well.

      I’ve also worked through agencies—in my area Creative Circle—that have a mix of full-time-short-term, part-time-long-term, and contract-to-hire.

    5. Content Marketing Manager*

      Writer’s access is good. I managed content strategy at an agency and our freelancers all came from there. I can’t speak to what your takehome would be, but you will find work if you’re decent.

  7. Lumos*

    So I have a second job again ;-; But it’s actually with an accounting firm! I finally have something in my field and I’m super excited. But also terrified to actually be working in my field. this is well-timed because my main job just got a new boss who the office grape vine has told us is horrible and so far I haven’t seen much to counter act that.

  8. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    Not looking for advice just venting.

    The guy who sits behind me pops his gum. (Not as often as the LW’s coworker this morning.) It makes me want to shove a fork in my eye, but I grit my teeth and deal with it because it’s temporary.

    He’s now started belching. Full on, outloud belching. And then he laughs. Or jokes and “blames” someone else. If anyone says anything he just chuckles and says it’s natural and we all do it. It doesn’t make me want to shove a fork in my eye, but it’s obnoxious and gross.

    4. T3k*

      Ugh, that sucks, I’m sorry :( (and I’d be so tempted to tell him off, claiming we all do it. I can actually count on one hand how many times I’ve burped).

      1. Tuxedo Cat*

        It’s such a strange and silly thing to say. There are tons of natural things we all do, but none of us really wants to be exposed to those.

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        I mean, I understand sometimes things sneak up on you. I get THAT.

        And the first time it happened, that’s what I thought. Even the first few, I thought maybe it was a new diet/medication/something-else-that’s-absolutely-none-of-my-business. But it’s been going on for a while now, so my sympathy has vanished.

    6. Namast'ay in Bed*

      This immediately made the Cell Block Tango from Chicago pop into my head, maybe blast that on repeat :-)

    7. Lyra (UK)*

      Ugh. Can you respond with, “Be that as it may, none of us do it in public as it’s kind of off putting. Could you please stop?”

      I’d begrudgingly accept the gum popping, but the belching crosses a huge line.

    8. Annie on a Mouse*

      I will never understand why people think “It’s natural!” is a defense to behavior that is generally considered best saved for private moments. Lots of things are natural, but that doesn’t mean others want to share the experience with you. And many conventions of society are actually unnatural (sharing toys or saying please and thank you), but we teach them to children because it makes life more pleasant for those around them.

      So yeah. Belching is natural—but doing your best to muffle it is polite.

      1. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Want to know what else is natural? Bears. Poison ivy. Tornadoes. I don’t want any of those in my office!

    9. Myrin*

      Of course burping is natural and everyone does it, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t at least try to minimise its impact when out and about in society. Everyone craps and it’s a necessary and healthy biological function, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay to leave a big stinking heap in the middle of the office floor!

    10. AlcoholAnonymouseToday*

      “Could you please not pop your gum?”
      “No, we don’t all do it, but regardless can you do it quietly instead of being intentionally rude?”
      “We all poop, but not in the middle of the office.”

      1. Lead, Follow or Get Out of the Way!*

        “We all poop, but not in the middle of the office.”

        +100 to this. I would use this phrase to counter his response. It shows that we all have some discipline and some idea as to what is considered respectful and polite.

    12. Bagpuss*

      “Many things are natural, but are unplesant and rude in a shared space.
      Please keep your mouth shut and the noise down, and go to the bathroom if you know you are going to belch”

      (part of me would be very tempted to point out that peeing and periods are both natural as well, but not one would think it was OK to let either flow naturally in the workplace…)

    13. fromscratch*

      My annoying coworker belches fairly frequently and always makes a comment about it afterward, like “OMG” or “that was crazy!” – bad enough to be burping loudly, but I don’t also need your commentary on it!

      1. motherofdragons*

        Reminds me of the scene in Elf where Buddy has this incredibly long burp at the dinner table and then looks around excitedly and says, “Did you hear that?!?!”

    14. SophieChotek*

      Eww. I get sometimes we all unintentionally/just can’t help it…but he seems to know he’s being annoying and doesn’t care. Eww. Rude.

    15. CowardHomment*

      You could reply, “Really? Because I’ve never heard CEO belch or MANAGER. I’ve only heard you do that, and it is becoming your most well-known characteristic.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        AH!

        “Fergus, I always know where you are in the building, I can hear that gum popping and burping and it’s like you have your own built in GPS locator. I never have to wonder where you are.”

        sigh.

        I had a cohort whose perfume you could follow through the halls and use it as a locating device.

    16. A Nonna Miss*

      not ok! I had an old coworker that would burp constantly. I told him it bothered me so he started doing it on purpose after that.

    17. motherofdragons*

      This would drive me NUTS. I really don’t think I would be able to keep myself from making disgusted faces and saying “THAT IS GROSS, STOP THAT” in a decidedly not-nice tone.

  9. Kraken Wants OUT!*

    Freelance writers, especially tech writers: do you have any advice for transitioning from a regular 9-5 to writing at home? I’m fed up with somebody at my job and thinking of taking this scary leap. I’ll check back in later to provide more details & probably with more specific questions. Thanks!

    1. Det. Charles Boyle*

      Would you be doing tech writing from home or a different type of writing/editing? I would keep your full-time job during the transition until you’re sure you can make enough to support yourself as a freelancer. It will take a few years to build up your client list, unless you already have a few clients waiting in the wings. A book I found helpful was My So-Called Freelance Life by Michelle Goodman. You’ll have to learn to figure out taxes, as well, but it’s not too difficult.

      1. Kraken Wants OUT!*

        Thanks for the book advice. I have some clients but I’m actually wanting to get in an agency pool for a couple of agencies. I polish technical manuscripts written my non-native English speakers if that makes a difference advice-wise.

        1. StellaBella*

          This sounds like a great job! I asked below about something similar – freelancers who scientific papers – good to see another related question or two here in the thread.

          1. Kraken Wants OUT!*

            Yup, that’s exactly what I was talking about. I’ll go check out your question.

    2. Girl friday*

      It will probably be a very easy transition for you, if you have submitted writing to publications that you are interested in writing for as a freelancer. Check for conflicts of interest first, compete clauses etc…if those apply here.

      1. Girl friday*

        Editing is easy to break into as a freelancer! If you want the freelancer life/schedule now, then maybe start there. Good luck!

    3. The Kraken Wants Out!*

      Ok, more specific questions now that I have time:
      What surprised you most when you switched from 9-5 to freelance?
      Especially what pitfalls should I try to anticipate?

      I know it will be slow to start and that I will have to work hard to get to my comfortable income level, but otherwise I feel pretty naive.

      How much financial cushion should I try to accumulate before quitting in terms of X months of salary? I can make a spreadsheet but I’m not sure what to include on it besides normal bills. I won’t lose health coverage because I’m on my spouse’s plan.

      What do I say if I ever go back to a 9-5 and they ask why I left my previous 9-5? I cannot say that one of my coworkers had a breakdown (I don’t know if it’s psychological or medical at this point, and I am trying to be compassionate, but I don’t think I can work with them anymore) and became intolerable and that I was tired of the commute.

      I’m a bit sad and scared to leave my job, as I feel like I could still do more good work there. However, the job is definitely in better condition than when I found it and I have always found my side tech writing very engaging and fulfilling. I’ve been wanting tech writing to be a bigger part of my career for awhile now.

      1. Hamburke*

        ” I had wanted to focus on technical writing/editing for awhile and saw an opportunity to pursue the field with freelance pool.”

    4. Part-time freelancer*

      Get everything in writing! Terms, payment dates, etc.

      I find that taxes take about 1/3 of my income (as opposed to about 1/6 when I had an employer), so you’ll need a lot more freelance income to make the same income that you were previously.

      Glad for you that you still have insurance!

  10. Anon around the world*

    So, how would you handle looking at what looks like a nice job, but on reading news and reviews, you learn the company went through multiple layoffs withing just the last year alone? I’m currently unemployed, have had interviews but no offers yet, and set to have an in-person interview for this one place. It’d also require me to move there (several hours away) if I got it, so I’m trying to figure out how to assess if there’s a good possibility more rounds of layoffs could happen.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I was on board with giving it a try but keeping your toe in the water of job applications until you mentioned you’d have to move several hours away. I’ve heard enough horror stories that this would be a red flag to me. If you’re interested in the job, definitely do you due diligence in person and mention your concerns – how they answer could help you decide.

      Good luck!

      1. Tara S.*

        ^ I would say take the job until you can find something else, but not if you have to move to do it. Just as a stop-gap to get paid until you can find something better. (Unless you are in a situation where you can afford to wait it out a bit longer.)

        1. Anon around the world*

          Thanks for both your input on that :) Yeah, I could last out until end of the year if I needed (much rather not naturally). Sadly, this isn’t the first time I’ve had to deal with layoffs (though thankfully I still lived at home during those so didn’t move for them).

    2. ToodieCat*

      I think that layoffs are like skipping class: once you’ve done it once, it’s so so sooooo much easier to do it again.

    3. Antilles*

      I wouldn’t cancel the in-person interview because of it…but I’d certainly make sure to ask about the layoffs and understand the reason and how it was done. Layoffs are never great, but there are cases where they’re worse than others – if it’s focused in a couple underperforming divisions, that’s a completely separate scenario than if it was a company-wide restructuring. Also, if you can find out how people were selected to be laid off – was it on seniority or merit or specific job description or…?
      Basically, your intent at the interview is to understand just how likely it is that (a) another round of layoffs would happen and (b) whether you’d be first on the firing line.
      This is also complicated because it’s a new city. Ask yourself this question: IF you went there and layoffs hit, would you look for a job in the new city? If the answer is “honestly, I’d probably just move back here and resume my job search here”…then that’s almost certainly your answer.

      1. Anon around the world*

        Thanks, I’ll definitely use this wording to try and ask them about it. I didn’t catch it before the quick phone interview, so I only know through what I’ve read (which did sound like it was a restructuring; they were bought out several years ago and been going downhill since then).

        And yeah, I’d probably just move back home if I did get laid off :/ While the new city itself is a somewhat bustling hub, it’s rural area surrounding it and thus not as many jobs to apply for (currently, I live right between 3 major cities so a bit spoiled by all the businesses and restaurants here).

    4. gecko*

      No…I vote completely no. If it were closer, that’d be reasonable, but it sounds like they’re in a crunch; even if you don’t get laid off I’d be worried about things like, “we can’t match your 401k for now!” or “We have terrible health insurance!” “But it’s ok because it helps avoid layoffs!”

      1. Anon around the world*

        Well, to be fair, all except my last job had no benefits xD (one tried to do a 401k with a 1:1 match, but when you’re only raking in $12 with an aging car and other expenses, can’t exactly take advantage of that).

        1. gecko*

          That does change the calculus a bit :) If it’s a step up in benefits & job security–even at its likely low-benefits and low-job-security level–then it might be worth it.

      2. SophieChotek*

        I’d be concerned about the move too. Moving is expensive and so draining (I find) both for packing/unpacking. (Unless you’re hiring movers to do all of it.)

        And while I can totally be a worrier – if you took job and got laid off, would you want to move back to where you are now? Would you be okay with staying in new place and looking for a new job there? Are there decent opportunities there in a worst-case scenaio situation?

        Finding out about layoffs, as Antilles explained, can get you good information. But mentally thinking through other scenarios might also help. (Or could make you talk yourself out of a good opportunity. Could go both ways.)

    5. WalkedInYourShoes*

      Multiple layoffs is a big red flag. Questions that came into my mind are: 1) how financially stable are they? 2) are they ready to sell off and be acquired by a private equity firm 3) In what type of technology or space are they focused that makes the company go through multiple? There are companies such as BigCompanyBeenAroundForever that the method of “change management” is to go through layoffs once or twice a year. Personally, I would decline moving forward with the company, because guaranteed, the company will lay off again.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Financially stable and company size are big factors in how “safe” you would be during future layoffs. My first layoff was from a very large and previously super-successful company that started to tank right as I joined and ended up laying off a significant number of people within two years (the 2000 tech bubble bust) before they were acquired just as they might have failed entirely.

        My second layoff was from a very large, continues-to-be-successful company that has definite boom-and-bust periods but with relatively long eras of stability (decade or longer between mass layoffs). And new people were relatively well-preserved during layoffs, which (unofficially) targeted higher paid, more senior employees.

        With a somewhat smaller company with a decent financial history, lots of layoffs and turnover would concern me but I’d probably still consider it. With a start-up? Probably not.

    6. Anono-me*

      To me a big part of the question is “What does moving involve for you?”.
      If the company will cover 100% of the move, you like the new town, and there’s no requirement to repay moving costs if you’re separated from the company for any reason. I’d say go for it.
      If you don’t have a lot of personal property, and moving would be loading up your car and finding a new roommate situation in a furnish apartment. I say go for it.
      If you have your own place and your own furniture and you would have to pay to move all of that. I don’t know that I would move for a job that I wasn’t sure would be there in a year.
      Good luck with whatever you decide.

  11. InspireMeAnon*

    So I believe this is a work-related question at the core, but if not feel free to remove. Are there any blogs/youtube channels/instagram accounts that you follow for productivity inspiration/motivation? I’m in a bit of a slump at work and need an emotional boost.

    I’m particularly interested in fellow young women in careers outside of youtube-as-work. It feels like there’s a bit of of a void in that space. I look to these accounts less for actual tips and more for motivation, if that makes sense. I know what I need to do, it’s just helpful to have role models posting how/what they got done. Maybe it’s a bit voyeuristic, but I find seeing other people’s to-do lists helpful for pushing me along!

    A lot of what I’ve found thus far are study blogs, or accounts that delve way too much into how women do their makeup in the mornings/take baths in the evenings (I say that with love, I wish I had that kind of time, ha!), or men that just want to show you how to use productivity software. I’m not really into the bullet journal thing but I’m open those accounts if they’re less focused on the crafty side of it!

    1. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

      I like the channels Leena Norms and ItsRadishTime on YouTube– they’re both 20-something, small-to-medium youtubers who work full time in publishing and activism respectively. They both come across as fun and down-to-earth, but also they inspire me to work harder at my creative work and my full time work. I’d especially recommend Leena’s series on how she got into publishing and Taylor’s (ItsRadishTime) series on personal mythologies.

    2. Emily S.*

      Thrive, which is run by Arianna Huffington. They have a great website, and it’s all about inspiration, productivity, and especially about self-care. Very useful stuff!
      www dot huffingtonpost dot com / topic / thrive

      Also – LeanIn. They have a great website with tons of good resources, but they also have excellent social media channels (Facebook etc.). I especially like their monthly email newsletters.
      It’s LeanIn dot org

      (By the way, I highly recommend the book Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg, if you haven’t yet read it. It is geared to women — not sure if that’s relevant to you?)

    3. sunshyne84*

      Myleik on instagram runs her own business and posts quotes and advice from time to time. She also has a podcast with work advice. She’s returning to maternity leave, but she did often post books she’s reading. I know you’re not into journals, but she does have those as well. I don’t have any, but they seem highly rated. I’m sure it’s not the typical girly stuff you’re trying to stay away from. But check out the podcast.

    5. Celeste*

      I like The Jordan Harbinger Show podcast. I have learned a lot about networking, mental attitude, and achieving goals.

    6. Zzzz*

      Bria Simone Brown on YouTube! She’s pretty new and doesn’t post that often, but when she does it’s great.

    7. NoodleMara*

      It’s not by a woman, but Kevin Sonney runs a podcast called Productivity Alchemy. He interviews a lot of creative people about how they stay organized and productive and it’s enjoyable. I don’t think it’s quite what you’re looking for but it might be something interesting.

    9. busty alexa*

      Late to the party – but Laura Vanderkam has a great blog and podcast (called the best of both worlds) about productivity… it’s geared a bit towards working mothers but is still pretty universal

  12. Kramerica Industries*

    I’m wondering if anyone can give me some guidance on when it’s appropriate at work to bring up morale issues. I’m always a little puzzled by workplaces that claim to care about employee morale, but it’s not clearcut to me of when you can start mentioning emotions (since these should typically be left out of conversations). Or, does anyone have any tips on keeping strong?

    1. AnonGD*

      In my workplace, the way you’d bring it up is by suggesting something that would raise morale– especially if you think something small-ish like a catered lunch could help do the trick. Mentioning that morale seems low is pretty much just seen as pointless complaining, for better or worse, in my company.

      1. Antilles*

        Agreed. If you aren’t at a senior enough level where “company morale” and “overall company well-being” are part of your role, then bringing up morale issues should only be done if you have a feasible solution.
        And not a major change, but something concrete and reasonable like “well, since everybody worked crazy hours last month to get out the Alpha Project, maybe it would be good to give the staff the afternoon off” or “how about a team lunch on Friday to reassure our team that our department is not part of the upcoming layoffs” or etc.

      2. En vivo*

        That’s how it works in my office, so I wouldn’t even mention the words low morale. I would DO something on a regular to change the atmosphere.

    2. Lyra (UK)*

      The most successful approach for me has been to talk about morale in the context of the issues that are affecting it. Morale is a vague concept that is hard to affect by management without further information, so the most productive way to address it is to help provide information on what would help (i.e. less overtime, more recognition, salary, career progression etc.)

    3. Planning to succeed*

      What’s your role in your team, and who would you be bringing the issues up to?

      In general, I’d say that you’re more likely to be successful if you have a specific action in mind that you want taken to address the morale issue, but there’s so many possible situations it’s hard to say if that would work for this one.

    4. Bagpuss*

      I think it depends a bit on what is causing the issue and what solutions there might be.
      Being able to suggest things that might help is a good thing – who you speak to will depend on your workplace – in my (fairly small) office, it would fine to speak to me or one of my partners, or to our new HR person.

      However, “lots of us are really stressed” is hard to address. “we’re / I’m finding x very stressful” is easier, and “we’re / I’m finding x very stressful, would it be possible to [do specific thing]” is better yet.

      Obviously it depends a bit on what is causing the poor morale – if it is down to dysfunctional management then there may not really be an effective way to bring it up.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, as a manager, “People feel bad” is one of my least favorite things to hear. Not because I don’t want to know!! But because I can’t do much about feelings. You are overworked? I can try to adjust workloads. You are anxious about organizational change? I can try to talk that out and share what I know. But just feelings, and especially other people’s feelings, are really hard for me to address.

    5. Girl friday*

      What are you seeing? I have lots of tips, but they depend on your situation. Anything small, even a candy dish can help- w/o knowing your answer.

    6. Safetykats*

      If you do start making suggestions about morale events, please be prepared to have that interpreted a volunteering to help organize an event. Because if you’re really just telling upper management (or the exec admins) that they should throw you a party, that probably won’t go over well.

      I say this a someone who organizes a lot of morale events – and who absolutely knew when my coworker and I walked into the Chief Engineer’s office to report that the staff were wondering why field engineering had so many more morale events that his response was going to be “What would you like to to about that?” But honestly, the main reason a lot of organizations don’t do many events is because they are a lot of work to organize and nobody volunteers.

    7. Kramerica Industries*

      Thanks all for the feedback. I ended up having a conversation with my manager to ask about ways to get more support (processes, timelines, resources, etc.) to feel less stressed about working with other departments who seem to spring projects with short notice on our team.

      He ended up saying that the nature of the job is that things happen very last minute and there’s not much we can do about it. I actually feel better just hearing this instead of building up hope in my mind that things are going to change. I was curious about whether my coworkers could benefit from hearing something like this too because I know people are feeling stretched, so I wanted to suggest more transparency about what is in our team’s power to change.

  13. Angry not Nervous Accountant*

    On Friday, this accountant who used to be on my team (I am/was his supervisor) asked me to review a return as a favor. he was moved to a new team that week. I told him I had to leave in a bit but I can take a look at it if it was a simple return. He sends it to me 20 min before I leave, which….wouldn’t have been an issue, but this was a big return (not difficult….just a lot of information and time consuming). Plus, within the first 5 minutes of looking at it i found SO many mistakes, so I put it aside for Monday (we don’t really pass off work to others if we are just leaving for the day).

    I leave, and 5m later I see an email from him telling the client “manager made a run for it” and told the client I ran out the door w/o finalizing it.

    I was pretty speechless and very angry about this.

    I emailed him back Monday explaining why I didn’t finalize the return and that I was appalled he’d say this to a client.

    He responded back saying he was hurt I would think he’d throw me under the bus and damage our relationship over a client….that he respected me a lot but I treated him like this.

    My mgr and I pulled him aside to talk to him. Told him clearly why this was unprofessional. I was more blunt, that “yeah it’s great u get along with your clients but you do not throw your team/supervisors/managers under the bus with clients, even if you’re joking with them.” He denied saying those things in the email, tried to spin it as something else, directed his comments/feedback to my mgr, not to me, and the kicker…didn’t apologize. My mgr had the same opinion, that he was being manipulative and didn’t seem to get it.

    He’s tried texting me a few times which I didn’t respond to. I’ve no desire to resume the friendship and since he’s not on my team I have no reason to talk to him about work. Even though it’s a really relaxed culture, there’s just a line you don’t cross…which this guy CONSTANTLY does.

    1. Nervous Accountant*

      And you know what else? I am too damn old and too damn tired to give a crap about managing feelings of people who act like assholes and get mad when I call them out on it.

      I’m done w caring that I’m “not soft enough” or that I “can’t take a joke.” I’ve worked here long enough to prove htat I am just as good as everyone else, that I have a great sense of humor, that I am a flawed human just like everyone else here. At first I wondered why I get no respect…what am I doing wrong? I don’t act differently from any of the managers/team leaders. This tore me up for hours. But I realized that I’m now at the point that nope, I’ve done my best and there is no reason I have to take disrespect from anyone. i’m no longer the new, seasonal employee whos desperate for a FT job that I’ll let some arrogant employee call me a bitch and then pretend she never did (true story from 3 years ago).

      It kinda feels awesome to realize I don’t have to take (most) crap.

      After I wrote this a few days ago, I just realized why this was so significant. This dude reminds me of the coworker I had written about in Dec 2016/Jan 2017, where the relationship was great but then he started acting like a psychotic jackass. I’m low key proud that 18 months later, things are different.

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/12/open-thread-december-23-24-2016.html#comment-1308817

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/01/open-thread-january-20-21-2017.html#comment-1336102

      1. SoCalHR*

        I am too damn old and too damn tired to give a crap about managing feelings of people who act like assholes and get mad when I call them out on it
        ^^^ THIS… I am sooooo done with this too (but in my situation I’m not getting support from management)

    2. neverjaunty*

      Wow, eff this guy. He imposed on you, threw you under the bus, and then tried to make you feel bad for noticing?

    3. Blue Anne*

      That is so, so, so unprofessional on so many different fronts. I would be putting this guy on notice if I was his manager.

    4. Technical_Kitty*

      Wow, that is terrible. Some people just don’t get who’s “team” they are on. Your company is one team, the clients another. If’d he’d rather be on the clients team, maybe someone should help him with that…

    5. Myrin*

      People who deny things they’ve actually written down and sent to someone else will never cease to amaze me.

      1. As Close As Breakfast*

        Me too! I have a (new) coworker right now that is turning out to be this exact type. I’ve taken to writing everything down in email rather than speaking in person, or following up with an email on a conversation, because he’s also the “so-and-so did/didn’t tell me thing A” when it’s absolutely not true. It’s fun.

        The next time he pulls one of these, I’m seriously considering just stopping mid-conversation and walking straight to my computer to print out the email and then handing it to him asking him to please read the highlighted section out loud like I’m some sort of trial lawyer!

    6. Det. Charles Boyle*

      Maybe he thought you had left for the day without knowing you planned to work on it on Monday? It would have been good to send a quick email to him saying, “Hey, there were a lot of mistakes in this and I don’t have time now to resolve all the issues. I’ll pick it back up on Monday.”
      However, he definitely shouldn’t have emailed the client saying you dropped the ball. He’s burning bridge by throwing his former manager under the bus, for sure.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Boyle!!!!

        Nah i shouldn’t have to email him that I’m not finishing it. I wouldn’t expect my managers/supervisors to notify me. As a courtesy yes, but I extended many courtesies to him. He’d constantly ask me to review a return as a high priority when it wasn’t so I would. Or bug me like I mean “name name name name quick Q quick q!”

          1. AshK413*

            So do I. If I gave my mgr something to review before sending it out to a client, I would expect a note if she didn’t plan on reviewing it that day. that’s not a courtesy but more like common sense to me.

            1. Beatrice*

              We should be able to take Nervous Accountant at her word that she doesn’t need to tell him that it’ll wait until Monday. I approve client credits and refunds for my employees, and I’ll credit service charges and delivery fees within minutes all day long on stuff that’s cropped up in the last couple of weeks without a thought, but if a client asks for a 50% refund on a five-figure invoice they paid six months ago because [insert dubious interpretation of contract here], our client rep knows without saying that she’s not going to get an answer from me for a couple of days. Her job is representing our business to clients, and part of that is setting expectations for them and painting the company as a whole (including her teammates and managers) in the best light possible – which includes helping the client understand that they’re not going to get an immediate response on that kind of request, there’s a good chance it’ll be denied, and we’re reviewing it with appropriate diligence. If she led them to expect an immediate response or a positive one, or threw me under the bus for not giving an immediate answer, her employment here would be pretty short-lived.

            2. ..Kat..*

              He gave it to her 20 minutes before the end of the day and it was too long to finish in 20 minutes. On Friday!

              And he lied to the client.

            3. Nervous Accountant*

              I actually did review it, but it was too much and too error-filled to finish in 15-20 minutes nor would I stay late to accommodate him. When I was preparing, I would ask someone to review my work but I would never expect them to drop everything and do it ASAP nor expect any notification from them that it won’t be done. Maybe it’s a matter of how things are done at other companies rather than courtesy vs common sense.

        2. Holt and Catch Fire*

          Hang on, you mean you actually left for the weekend without telling him you wouldn’t get to the review until Monday? Wow. That’s pretty bad, in my book. Yes, the guy is clearly a huge jerk and his actions were extremely unprofessional, but I think you were pretty unprofessional as well by doing this. Taking 20 seconds to dash off an email saying “this is going to take a while to review so it’ll have to wait until Monday” could have averted the whole issue.

          It sounds as though your personal feelings about this guy may be affecting your judgement.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            Not at all. In fact I liked him a lot before this, which is why I even agreed to the request. He saw me walk out and I said I’d take care of it Monday. I’ve tried setting boundaries before but they weren’t firm. Also, no one here DOES THAT during regular work hours, I’m not sure why that is so hard to believe.

            Reports don’t even do this to their managers, much less the other way around. I’m not sure how this is unprofessional.

    7. Falling Diphthong*

      To quote from earlier in the week: “Dance like no one’s watching; email like it’s being read aloud in court.” Or by your boss and grandboss, while you insist it doesn’t say the things it said.

    8. Hiring Mgr*

      I would say if it were just this one incident and you normally have a good relationship, then not that big of a deal in the big scheme of things, but if he’s constantly doing similar things as you mention than that’s different..

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        The email was new but he has a pattern of crossing boundaries and just never taking no for an answer. Once he sent that email I had to shut it down ASAP.

    9. Boredatwork*

      wow, just wow

      You never never email the client and joke like this, dude is totally in the wrong. I just can’t even, I’m so mad on your behalf. What did he have to gain?!

      I’m glad your manger had you back.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        If he hadn’t I would have walked out.. or thrown a major fit. He was angry about it for different but very valid reasons. So all around that worked out.

        He tried texting me a few times after but I ignored him.

    10. ginger ale for all*

      Why was it that only your manager was involved and not his manager as well? JMO, I would ask your manager to loop in his manager on this. If I was his manager, I would want to know about this.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        His new team leader did know about it but he was literally promoted a day before, so my mgr decided to step in on this one, but he was 100% included on everything.

    11. Celeste*

      I wonder if he just thinks his work is so great there won’t be any mistakes? But I bet he dragged his heels on it, did a half ass job, and wanted to blame somebody else for why it wasn’t completed on time.

      Either way, it doesn’t sound like he’s going to have much of a career.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        His work was great in the beginning, not flawless but good enough (it’s our job to teach them). And he does great w clients we give him that. But this return was just like…wtf. His whole defense was “I joke around w the clients” so thankfully they weren’t angry but it had potential to go very badly. Which again we don’t mind that-do what u want to do To make a good connections w them. But not at the expense of throwing your colleagues/company under the bus.

    12. WalkedInYourShoes*

      This happened to me when I was working as a consultant for a privately owned company. I had a few extra “conditions” to make through the consulting project, because I was promised to be converted to a FT role. That’s why I took the job as a consulting. I had a colleague who happened to be someone to whom I reported. Little did I know that this person was throwing me under the bus for projects that he forgot, overlooked in the email or didn’t have time to do. I worked as a team player and thought that my manager felt this way. I was really naive. The manager would put in requests knowing the fact that he dropped the ball. I took over the requests not knowing this was happening. Eventually, it caught up to him and he blamed me for the ball being dropped. I just couldn’t believe it. Within one week of catching on what was happening and my manager kept blowing off our 1:1’s, we finally met. He said that I was making too many mistakes and that mistakes happen; and managers were complaining (he was making this up, because my high-level partners with who I have to collaborate are very honest and would not hide their frustrations. First time in my career, I was walked out in shock and disbelief. I cried in the car on the way home and called my better half. Afterwards, I wrote down what I remembered and what happened when I caught on what my manager was doing. On the following work day, everyone was shocked, because I was a high-performing professional and they were not happy with his decisions. His lack of professionalism and dropping the ball on several key projects led him eventually in losing his job. Karma was quick. I would never go back to the company even though I miss my former colleagues. I was initially angry on how it went down. But, now it’s a learning lesson on the type of questions I need to ask in my interview process and my focus is no longer consulting or contracting, but interviewing for a FT role. Also, I know now to call someone out for “throwing me under the bus” and being unprofessional.

      Everyone on AAM has been super helpful in my current interviewing stages. I hope to give advice to help others.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I’m sorry that happened to you. I had incidents in the past where it felt like I was thrown under the bus but bc I was new to everything I isn’t have the confidence to stand up for myself. Posting here has taught me a lot as well. It’s such a great space.

  14. What's with today, today?*

    I love my place of employment. I love it. Probably will be here until I die. But after reading AAM for a year, I have realized we are completely dysfunctional. Anyone else work in a place they love, but is crazy, by AAM standards?

    1. Anonymous Poster*

      Every workplace is crazy and dysfunctional in its own way. But if you can handle it, what’s the point of worrying about it?

      I work as a government contractor. It’s crazy in its own way.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Yeah, you just have to find the place that is crazy and dysfunctional in a way that matches your own quirks, patience, and nails-on-chalkboardisms. Then you gaze into each other’s eyes and say “You complete me.”

        (It’s like the important addendum to “Your workplace is full of bees”–“… but you work in an apiary, so not sure why you’re surprised about this?”)

    2. Nervous Accountant*

      Yes. *Raise hand*
      To be fair though my mgr is a huge reason I’m still here. He leaves, I’m out

      1. WalkedInYourShoes*

        True! I was at a BigCompany years ago, when my manager left and toxic high-level manager took over, it took me 10 business days that the new high-level manager made the environment toxic and more dysfunctional. So, I quit and found another job.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      No, but if you’re really happy there, stay. It may be “crazy,” but it’s your kind of “crazy.”

    4. Violaine*

      I felt that way about my last job, and I ultimately ended up leaving it because of the things I learned from AAM. I was right to do so, and while it made me a little cautious to integrate with my new coworkers (last job enmeshed personal/professional boundaries in huge ways, which I didn’t mind, loved, and thought I was fine with until I reached a point that I just could not do it anymore), it made me appreciate how a functional workplace is supposed to be run.

    5. Amber Rose*

      Oh yeah. I can point out any number of extremely not-good things about my workplace. But since I’m pretty laid-back and have the sense of humor of a 12 year old boy, it’s all good to me.

      I’m always worried we’re going to hire someone who has a real problem with how we do things, since technically they’d be right. But the dysfunctional shit is what makes it fun to work here for the rest of us.

      1. What's with today, today?*

        We did two hires ago. And he lasted exactly one year before quitting. He didn’t like the small town we live in either, he was from a very large city, but the culture fit was bad and was painful at times.

      2. Super dee duper anon*

        You know… I think I was that person who had an issue with a dysfunctional group (but the group loved each other and embraced their dysfunction) once. Though I think the flavor of dysfunction was pretty different. Less making it “fun” and more just a very specific (and homogenous) work style that (in my opinion) wasn’t very conducive to the needs of our field.

        If I may offer some unsolicited advice (and if you’re not already doing this) – just be super upfront about the dysfunction and/or very honest about the group dynamic to potential new-hires. Had that group been with me, I would never have accepted the role. Which would have been better for everyone. It would have saved me a ton of frustration, stress and a huge hit to my confidence. It would have saved them a miserable 9 months and the need to redo all the training and time they had invested in me.

        1. Amber Rose*

          I don’t do interviews, but I do orientation, so day 1 i’m the one saying that yeah, we have a “no harassment” rule, but realistically conversations head for X-ratings at the drop of a hat and they curse like truckers, so…

          One of my coworkers who has a temper went on a rant about slapping difficult customers with assorted types of sex toys. My boss checked in to see if it bothered me (I was quietly struggling not to die laughing) and I know they would try to accommodate someone who was uncomfortable, but I don’t see it sticking. They aren’t mean about it, but they probably won’t change.

    6. Dino*

      I worked at a place that would make AAM commenters freak out, but it honestly worked for the team and for the industry I was in. I changed careers since they would never pay me enough to not be paycheck to paycheck, but it was definitely a job that I would have stayed in for years and year otherwise. So long as you recognize that things aren’t normal and wouldn’t fly in other places, I think you’re fine.

    7. Schnoodle*

      Yep! I have a crazy dysfunctional family here but I love it.

      I come from a much worse dysfunctional hell place so I think it helped me put their crazy in perspective.

    8. Goya de la Mancha*

      Oh oh oh! This is my office! I don’t know if I’ll be here til I retire, but at least until my boss retires! I know it’s probably not helping me in the long run, but it’s few and far in between the days that I dread going to work.

    10. Thlayli*

      Not sure if crazy by AAM standards, but definitely crazy by the standards of some of the commenters here. I think this might be cultural but people constantly ask each other questions about personal life and talk about their personal lives here and it’s just considered being friendly, not creepy or intrusive like it would apparently be considered in some American workplaces.

      For example I know about my coworkers’ attempts to conceive, problems with their exes and child support/access, plans for weddings and buying houses, medical details etc. Not everyone shares the same amount (I share less than most seem to here) but only one person would be considered as an over-sharer (that guy would literally tell you his entire life story if you listened to him without letting you get a word in edgewise). But apart from him no one seems to think it’s a lot. I know many AAM commenters would be freaking out though.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I went from a healthy level of sharing (basic concern for each other as human beings) to a silent place. No one stopped and talked to each other, “hey how is your day going?” or anything. It felt like there was nothing there for me. Do my job then go home, next day repeat, do my job then go home. It’s really hard, at least for me, to build and keep a commitment to such an employer. It all felt superficial and robotic.

    11. Kate*

      I mean… your Username suggests to me that you’re just a Lucas trying to get along and damn the man (Save the Empire!)

    12. Annie Moose*

      My workplace isn’t nearly as bad as most that come through here… but it is definitely dysfunctional in some deep ways that are not likely to change soon. (the biggest thing here is the lack of professionalism–they spin it as a “flat organization” but what it really means is “so much boundary crossing, so much, between managers and employees”. It also can get a bit white dudebro-y.)

      But I’m also pretty okay with it. If I could find another workplace that was as laidback but with less immaturity (and more women), I’d consider switching… but despite its issues, it’s so much better than the uptight never-have-any-money corporate environment I was working in before.

    13. bunniferous*

      I absolutely LOVE my workplace. We do joke “You don’t have to be crazy to work here….we’ll train you!” But in all seriousness that really is just a joke. Everyone is lovely from the bosses on down. That is SO SO rare!

    14. saffytaffy*

      I sometimes think I’m the only person at my job who loves it! Everyone else complains about logjams, incompetence, the cafeteria’s lousy, it’s too cold, upper management are maniacs, we’re not paid enough… And I’m just sitting here, really comfortable, hoping I get to stay here until I’m 65. I love it, and the only thing I can think is that I’m doing a very simple job for which the bar of success is really low, but at the same time I’m surrounded by smart dedicated people. Maybe my lack of ambition has saved me?

      1. Orangeturkey*

        Perspective is everything. I’ve noticed at my job, those who annoy all of us by being terrible workers or just plain unable to think, seem to have a much better experience than those who are motivated and good at getting things accomplished.
        If you think you are lucky because you are comfortable and well-paid to do the minimum, you likely have others picking up your slack.

    15. Tau*

      My old job! Everyone got to live with coworkers when on a client site (which, for most of us, was every workday every week). That place was super incestuous in a lot of ways, a lot of friendships and hooking up between coworkers. I think it was because it was super travel-heavy, which gives everyone something to bond over at the same time as it can be very difficult to start or keep up relationships with people not in the same situation. There was also a bunch of dysfunction at my client site, and I spent something like half a year with only a vague idea of who I was actually reporting to there. (My team lead who assigned us work was off sick for ages, then quit, his stand-in also quit, and I was never quite sure what sort of managerial duties either of them had over me anyway.) But I enjoyed myself, it was exciting, it was really interesting work and I learned loads.

      1. Tau*

        I note that I love my new job as well, it’s just not nearly as outrageously dysfunctional. Including on the technical side of things – I now have enough war stories to make any developer raised on scrum and Agile and best practices cry.

    16. Quinoa*

      Theater. I love working in theater. It’s insane, and the boundaries in theater are unlike boundaries anywhere else in the work world. But it’s my happy place.

    17. Bea*

      Every job I’ve had is dysfunctional and crazy by some of the AAM standards. I’m okay with it because I don’t march to the same beat either. I have never had a coworker that is a bad person or bad at their job but they have some wild personalities.

  15. anon for this*

    The head of another department approached me to let me know about a position that they’ve posted. He introduced the topic by joking about “poaching” me. I hadn’t been planning on applying for the position, because my understanding was that they were looking for someone with a specific background, but thinking more about it, I can see why my experience would be a good fit. My question is, should I address his remarks to me in my cover letter? Not the poaching thing, obviously, but should I mention that he approached me about the position? He will be on the search committee, so he’ll see the letter.

    1. MassholeMarketer*

      I’d think it isn’t necessary to add that to the cover letter. Just keep it aimed more at the successes you’ve had in your position and how you think your skills would transfer into the role and you’ll be good. Plus, with that head already approaching you, it sounds like you have a really good chance at the job :)

    2. Emmie*

      I wouldn’t do it. If he’s on the search committee, he will tell them. It feels stronger to focus on your skills, be one of the top candidates, and then have the recommendation of a committee member.

    3. Tara S.*

      I definitely wouldn’t frame it like that, “poaching”, but I don’t see the harm in mentioning that you were excited about the job after you had a chance to discuss it with Dept Head, as it seems to really play to [insert your strengths here].

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      I wouldn’t mention the poaching remark specifically, but in your shoes I’d for sure say something like, “when Bigwig approached me about this position, I was thrilled because X, Y, and Z…”

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      I would just focus in your letter about why you’d be a good fit. It sounds like it wasn’t immediately apparent to you, so it may not be immediately apparent to others on the search committee. I don’t think you need to say anything about being approached or what was said.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I wouldn’t mention it. He probably discussed it with a couple others before he approached you. I’d assume most of them know why you are applying.

  16. Not So Super-visor*

    I have an employee who isn’t terribly tech saavy (I’ve had to show her features on her personal cell phone as well as some standard features in Outlook) and has frequent “IT problems.” The entire company uses an older operating program to do all of our work that frequently has glitches or slow-downs; it’s frustrating, but it happens to everyone. Most people just give it a few seconds and it straightens out. Although this employee has worked here for 10+ years, she seems unable or unwilling to accept that this is a known issue. She complains that this only happens to her computer and no one else has this issue. She frequently calls IT or enters IT tickets or just restarts her computer. We have a phone based role, so I’ll got to check why she’s not on the phone, and she’ll mention that she’s restarting for the 2nd time today because of the “same thing my computer always does.” I’ve checked her computer, IT has checked her computer, but it’s not doing anything that anyone else’s computer isn’t doing. At this point, IT won’t take her seriously. They’ve asked that I double check all of her “problems” before she contacts them. The IT manager admitted that unless more than 1 person is having a similar issue, they don’t take her requests seriously. I’ve told her frequently that these are just normal issues and that if she waits it out, it’ll resolve itself and calling IT or restarting will not fix the problem. She will burst into tears and exclaim that we just don’t want to help her. I get it — our system SUCKS and everyone knows it, but I’m kind of at my wits end trying to get her to accept it.

    1. AnonGD*

      This may not make a lick of difference, but maybe giving her some documentation on common issues might help to keep her from panicking? “If X freezes, try Y first before shutting your computer down and calling IT” kind of thing? Even if it’s literally “Wait exactly 1 minute”, ha. This has the bonus effect of being usable by everyone, just in case you get another panicky employee. And you can use that documentation as a means of discipline.

      1. Only Kinda Joking*

        How about a list of bogus tasks that take the same amount of time as waiting? “Check your ‘spam’ folder to see if IT has sent any upgrade memos in the last three days. Log out of email and log back in.”

    2. AlcoholAnonymouseToday*

      I think the bigger problem is SHE’s an issue, the company has known that for 10 years and she’s still there. How much time does she waste? How much of your time? Is she always bursting into manipulative tears? Time to manage her out.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      Treat it like a performance issue, because it is one. Tell her that excessive requests for help diminish IT’s productivity — and, more importantly, YOUR productivity, because you’re being asked to check on her requests.* Then you can say “I need you to handle issues with this system the way your colleagues do.m, which is by doing X, Y, and Z. Can you do that?”

      *I would tell IT “no, that won’t be possible.”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The core problem is that she refuses to believe that anyone else is see what she is facing.
      Ask her why she doesn’t believe that and then listen.

      Probably it’s because no one else is talking about it. You can ask her if she has checked in with any of her cohorts to see how they are handling the problems. When she says no (because she will say no) ask her why not.

      Explain to her that no one else is talking about their issues because this is what it is and it will not change. If you can, explain that upgrades would cost x and the company cannot afford that, or whatever the rational is. Then launch into “you can expect to reboot x times per day; you can expect downloads to take extra time; etc. All this is part of the job, it’s part of the job to learn to live with this. What we need you to do is accept this as part of the job and stop putting in tickets for complaints that you have already made. It’s been explained to you that these things will not be fixed and you must factor that in as part of the job.”

      If she starts crying over this again, then you might gently ask her to consider if this job is for her. No one else is crying over these problems, because it’s just part of the job.

      If you chose you could point out that any company has limited resources. It’s up to the employee to either just work with the shortcoming or sometimes employees will find ways to patch or improve the situation with low or no cost ideas. I can think of many times at various places where we limped along on limited resources. One place our department needed a wet/dry vac. There was one such vac in the whole building. Every time we needed it was at LEAST 20 minutes of hunting for it. Another place had ONE hammer. All of us needed a hammer several times a week. Try finding the hammer, it could take close to an hour. You see the idea here, if it’s not computer updates then it’s something else.

      I will say though, ethically speaking, I believe the employer has an obligation to get their employees the tools they need to do the job. So, yeah, I can see where the company might be falling down on this one. And it is frustrating to work with tools that are not up to par. I know of one employer where the hammer’s head would fall off the handle when you used the hammer. Stuff like this causes employees to lose respect for their employer.

    5. a different perspective*

      I understand this this is not the perspective you are taking, but here’s what I thought when I read your letter: The complainer is the only rational person in your company.

      You say that the entire company uses an older operating program to do all of your work that frequently has glitches or slow-downs; it’s frustrating, it happens to everyone, and you all just accept it.

      What I would try is this: Everybody start adopting the approach that your complainer is applying. The company will fix the actual problem, instead of training everyone to accept lousy IT services. Just a thought ….

    6. trilusion*

      I’m with ‘a different perspective’ and ‘Not So NewReader’.

      I get that the whole situation needs to be addressed and your employee crying about this is not the norm compared to your other employees, but: Are the others, including you, super resignated regarding this software? Or in general? Are there other aspects in your company where you feel frustrated? Your sentence “The IT manager admitted that unless more than 1 person is having a similar issue, they don’t take her requests seriously” seems like it — everyone has the same complaints as your employee, but everyone else has gotten so frustrated so they don’t report it any more. “Software SUCKS” has become the new norm, and you have all accepted that you are actually being paid to wait, reboot, redo stuff and to be frustrated and therefore get less done than you would expect with ideal software.

      I get very aggravated and impatient when software is too slow or inefficient in some way. I believe companies not providing their employees with the best software/hardware they can afford is a case of false economy, maybe eben a sign of no respect. I do think your employee isn’t handling this the ideal way (for 10 years!), but I do feel for her.

      Personally I would try and place this issue once more with the higher-ups. Ask the entire team about their daily problems. Calculate how much time they spend with rebooting, waiting, redoing stuff because of this. Then I would forward this number to my manager in and ask them to assess: How much does new software cost (including everything, like trainings for all teams)? How much do the current software problems cost weekly when you apply the employees’ salaries? How many weeks until return on investment? Plus happier, less frustrated employees in the long run?

  17. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

    So here is this week’s update from the land of “The CEO is in Africa and the President’s wife (who is not an employee) is taking over the office.”

    When we last visited, I had had my duties restored and received a significant raise (significant for me anyways….$2 per hour raise in Floriduh is nothing to sneeze at!). I was back handling HR and was the office manager. Everything was great!

    And then…..*dun dun* The CEO left for Africa last Saturday (6/23). I came in Monday to an email from the president informing the entire company (all 8 of us) that my duties (except for accounting, inventory and shipping) had been reassigned. Again. (It wasn’t put like that, more like “Just a reminder that [President’s wife] handles [list of what were formerly my duties].”

    I threw up my hands, took anything in my office that didn’t pertain to accounting, inventory or shipping and gave it to the receptionist.

    Things really really came to a head Wednesday afternoon/Thursday though. On Wednesday afternoon, we were all treated to an email from the wife. She was informing us that she would be committing timecard fraud. Essentially, the time clock is now set to automatically clock us in at 830, so if we come in early (her example was for 800am), that’s ½ an hour of time we will not be paid for. I sent her an email confirming, “So are you basically saying that if I clock in at 823 and start working, you are not going to pay me for the 7 minutes between 823 and 830?” She confirmed that that was correct. I wrote her back and told her that was illegal and considered timecard fraud. Her defense was that the company pays us for our lunch break and 2 15-minutes breaks per day. I told her she was comparing apples (benefits the company gives us—and believe you me, those are the only benefits we get) to oranges (committing an illegal act—timecard fraud). Every time she wrote me, she would copy her husband. When I replied, I would remove him from the distribution. She would always add him back on. Apparently, the wife is incapable of fighting her own battles and likes to use her marriage to the president as a cudgel to force others into submissiveness. She has me confused with someone else. I’ll lose my job before I let that beyotch bully me.
    So he called me into his office. He told me he didn’t want to hear another word about timecard fraud and he was sick of hearing about it. I reminded him that I was not the one sending him the emails, his wife was the one who was dragging him into the middle of this and that I don’t need anyone to back me up, I’m perfectly comfortable in my stance that timecard fraud is illegal. I then informed him that there were other things going on that were illegal, such as: the probation policy says that if either party terminates the employment relationship for any reason, the employee gives up the right to file for unemployment; that policy also states that if all company property is not returned when an employee separates the company will (not can but will) withhold their final paycheck until that property is returned; I also pointed out that if we were audited, our employee files are appalling and do not contain any of the I-9 paperwork, and in some cases we don’t have the W-4 in this office (the wife has that stuff sent to her 7 hours away, in Panama City Beach and that is where she keeps it); I also told him the Department of Labor frowns on unpaid employees (he told me she is paid, I said—very cheerfully—“Oh awesome! So she gets a check or direct deposit from ADP?”, he said no but she is paid; after pressing him, he said that he pays her out of his paycheck; I told him that wasn’t good enough for the DOL; he lost his shit and said he didn’t want to hear any more out of me about timecard fraud or what this company is doing that is illegal). There were a few other small things that are being done that are illegal. Apparently, I’m too good at the compliance part of my job because I was then told to forget compliance (we are a publicly traded company, and I have extensive experience with the compliance requirements and issues of publicly traded companies).

    So I forgot compliance. It is no longer my 3-ring traveling entertainment venue and the simian entertainers are not mine either.

    Every time I pointed out something illegal, he demanded I prove it. I spent a few minutes looking up the laws and sent him an email with all the links. He has refused to read the linked webpages. At this point, I am not paid to provide legal advice (I’m not even an attorney, but I did do my first year of law school) and will sit back and let the DOL give him that advice. A complaint was filed with them on Wednesday, after the timecard fraud email was received. The DOL granted me whistleblower protections.

    I am mad at myself because I kind of lost my cool. I plan on going in to the president’s office and apologizing for the manner in which the message was delivered. I am going to make it clear that I am not sorry for delivering the message, it needed to be delivered, but I am sorry for the way I delivered it.

    I have an email from the CEO telling me, specifically, that I am not do anything to assist the wife and I am to concentrate solely on accounting, shipping and inventory only. Also, I met with the CEO last week and he told me that whatever happens in regard to the wife, he has my back. We’ll see if that’s true. I was told that by the president also, but apparently what he meant was he had my back as long as it didn’t have to with his wife because he gave her his set of testicles when he married her. I hear she carries them around in a beautiful handbag.

    This company is going to go down in a big, flaming mass of goo. God willing, I will be far enough away so none of the goo lands on me (and I have worked hard to distance myself from any person/department that is, shall we say, non-compliant).

    Needless to say, I am back in the market for a job.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Okay, seriously though, WHY does the President even still have a job if he encourages his wife in doing this crap? The CEO needs to fire him immediately.

      Also, in your position, I would have probably immediately forwarded that email to the CEO in Africa, copied the President, and said something like “this is counter to what we discussed last week. please advise.”

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

        I agree with you 100%. The CEO and the President have been friends for over 30 years so I think that has something to do with it. However, I feel that that friendship–and the CEO’s unwillingness to enforce HIS rules in HIS company–is going to be the downfall of this promising startup.

        I did reach out the CEO and he said to just focus on accounting, inventory and shipping and let HR go. I have disentagled myself completely from that department so that if the s*it hits the fan, it’s only going to hit the wife.

        1. JessicaTate*

          This is amazingly craptastic. I have my doubts about CEO at this point. “Let HR go” as a directive gets my hackles up. I guess he might just be saying “Not your circus, not your monkey”… but, it IS his circus, it IS his monkey, at this point the monkey’s been doing crazy stuff for a long time, and he’s not doing a darn thing about it. It starts to ring of “While I am nicer to you about it than President, I also don’t particularly care that we are breaking laws left, right, and center. That’s just how we roll. So you, BAL, should just let it go.”

          1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

            You summed up my unconscious feelings to a T. They’re concerned, but not concerned enough to actually do anything.

            Maybe once the Department of Labor shows up they’ll get a bit more concerned.

            Maybe.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      Jesus Christ.

      This is some serious, next-level shit. Congratulations on sticking to your guns and not doing what youknew to be wrong. I honestly don’t think you should apologise to the President – he knew exactly what was going on and turned a blind eye to it. He had his chance to put things right and he didn’t. Let the chips fall where they may for him now.

      As for you – good luck. I hope you find a job where your work is valued and you’re not surrounding by idiots.

      1. Myrin*

        Yeah, I agree.
        BAL, you were seriously badass there and I commend you for staying unwavering in such a bizarre situation, that’s really awesome!

        1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

          Thanks Myrin! I was so badass, I’m pretty sure they’re trying to figure out how to fire me. They never conceived of someone like me. (I’m about 5’3″, weigh 100 lbs. soaking wet, but can kick some serious ass and when my name and integrity is attached I’m NOT going to get involved with anything illegal!)

          This situation is so bizarre, every day I look for Rod Serling to start narrating my life.

          1. Jane of all Trades*

            What a bizarre situation. Hope all resolves itself for you, in the meantime I would make sure to have copies of all relevant documentation and emails in a non-work location, just in case you need it. And hope you find a job quickly working for people who aren’t as compromised.
            Good for you for standing up to them!

      2. AlcoholAnonymouseToday*

        I don’t think any chips are going to fall for the president, that’s the problem. The CEO has so far let this all happen and continues to let it happen.

        1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

          Yeah, I’m really with you. They think that nothing can happen and they don’t really WANT to make the changes.

      3. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

        Thanks, me too!

        Funny thing is, I had applied for a receptionist job with this company. I didn’t want responsibility because it always came with weird strings attached. Then this company offered me the position I am in. I accepted it because the pres told me “I’ve got your back on everything.” Now that I know that isn’t true, I just want a job with no responsibility, where I can just show up, do my job, get paid and go home. This particular position has completely fried my brain, reignited my PTSD from ToxicJob (where my co-worker tried daily to kill me with Lysol), and has caused me to refill my Valium scrip that I haven’t had filled in almost a year.

          1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day*

            LOL, that’s an extreme way of putting it but yeah, essentially she did.

            I have asthma, COPD, and emphysema (genetic, it’s called A1AD). LastJob, which was also ToxicJob had a large population of folks who used hand sanitizer if the switched duties (think going from shuffling papers to typing) and would spray Lysol and other air fresheners on the regular. There was a company policy against this.

            I requested, and was granted a medical accommodation that folks in my department not use those items. I also had company policy backing me up. (Air fresheners generally, and Lysol specifically, wreaks havoc on folks with bronchial issues and Lysol has some weird effect on the lungs of emphysematics.)

            My co-worker (we were on the same team) who sat right next to me would.not.stop. I’d go to HR, they wouldn’t do anything. It was 4.5 months before I really pushed it. I had gone to the bathroom and she had drenched my London Fog raincoat with Lysol. It was dripping with Lysol. That was almost two years ago and I still can’t wear it. HR’s response? The rep held up my file and informed me that my file was the thickest of any employee in the company. I opined that if he would enforce the conditions set forth in my medical accommodation I wouldn’t be in HR every week, complaining about my co-worker who was violating that accommodation (not to mention company policy).

            I spent the next two months wondering, each day, if this was the day I was going to be taken out of work on a gurney or in a body bag.

            Then I had a heart attack from the stress and spent Christmas of that year in the hospital, recovering.

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

        I cannot thank you enough for that link, Coldfeet! I was wondering how I would get in touch with them. I really appreciate you saving me the hassle of having to track it down!

    4. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      Please, report the company, with documentation, to the state labor board (or whoever it is).

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

        Yeah it’s been done. Department of Labor, Department of Economic Opportunity, and the IRS (just for sh’giggles….we work for Company A but our checks come from Company B and Company B is not an employee leasing company).

    5. Q without U*

      Is the CEO aware of the illegalities and labor violations? He sounds like a reasonable human being, so I’m having a hard time imagining him being okay with his company knowingly breaking the law in a dozen (documented) ways.

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

        He is and I’ve handled it the way he told me to (give them the legal docs to backup my claims). Unfortunately, he does NOT know that his partner has refused to even read that documentation. He think the pres is just going to listen to me. Nope, not as long as his wife is involved. She’ll find a million excuses why something is ok. I’m just tired of the battle. I’ve been reasonable but I’ve reached the end of my rapidly fraying rope.

    6. neverjaunty*

      Please please talk to an attorney ASAP. You are high risk of being in the blast radius when this all goes off.

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

        I’m kind of worried about that myself, which is why I have endeavored to distance myself. I’ll reach out and get a consult with an attorney in the next few days or so.

        1. Extra Vitamins*

          Also make sure you keep a copy of all the email chains. Maybe burn to to a CD for safekeeping?

          1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

            I forwarded all of them to my home email address (and confirmed they are there). I also backed them up to my personal cloud drive. I have a printed copy in the glove compartment of my car (ya know, just in case I run into a DOL investigator at the market or something!).

            2. Michaela Westen*

              Late, I know – I looked this up after yesterday’s thread.
              Paper copies are the thing. Any other media can disappear, but not paper! I always save paper copies even if it’s just that I’m feeling a little paranoid about nothing. :)

    7. CatCat*

      Holy crap. After your last update, I was optimistic. But not now. Damn. Unless the president is fired, it’s just going to keep going on like this. I must say, you are handling this shit show in an awesome manner, and I look forward to an update where you have escaped the flames of this dumpster fire.

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

        I know, right? I was cautiously optimistic and was really waiting to see what happened when the CEO left. Here’s the pattern, as I can tell: CEO is in town, all duties are restored to me. CEO leaves town, email is sent out about the reassignment of my duties. CEO comes back, duties are restored. CEO leaves, email is sent out. Rinse, repeat.

        Honestly, I am kind of looking forward to next week. That is when the wife will be in the office, calling meetings and generally disrupting our workflow. The CEO said I can just close my door and ignore her.

        THAT will be easier said than done.

    8. Reba*

      There is so much happening but

      “It is no longer my 3-ring traveling entertainment venue and the simian entertainers are not mine either.”

      LOL forever.

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

        :) I put that right up there with “craniorectal extraction.” Two distinctly different ways of saying the exact same thing. Only the way I say it, folks walk around for days wondering exactly WTH I’m talking about.

    9. SpaceNovice*

      This sounds like a future war story in the making. Uhm, good luck. I hope you find a new place soon!

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

        Oh I hope there is no war! I just want to come to work, do my job, get paid and go home and play with my kittens before they go to their new homes!

    10. SophieChotek*

      Wow! what a sage. I don’t understand why Pres. wife is so involved!

      Hope things resolve — and that you can get a new job soon!

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day!*

        No one really seems to understand why she is so involved. She only comes into the office when the CEO is gone (mostly because he hates her with a passion and doesn’t want to see her face….I’m in the same boat, but I’m not the CEO) and then does crap like moving furniture and calling meetings to announce to everyone how she reassigned my duties.

    11. The Ginger Ginger*

      This is the first I’m reading about this whole thing. Now I’m about to lose my afternoon going back through the archives to catch up because it sounds WILD. Good luck to you!

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day*

        There’s not much, only the last couple of weeks or so. And it’s essentially all the same. Issues with the president’s wife (who is not an employee and not paid paid but calls herself the Sr. VP of Admin/HR), duties being given to me and then taken away, just complete and utter confusion. I was hired with the *specific* purpose of bringing some organization to this start up and their books (which I’ve pretty much given up on….they never give me receipts, take cash out of the ATM regularly with no receipts/documentation, etc.) but the wife doesn’t like that. This is just the latest chapter. Next Friday’s update will be juicy since The Wife will be in the office next week.

    12. Girl friday*

      If you are throwing down in this manner with your boss and he still wants you to work for him, I congratulate you. It must have been a more civil conversation than you portray. I wish you luck with the job search! It does not sound like a good fit.

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day*

        Well, it’s actually portrayed more civilly than it was. This was only the first part. As I was leaving, he said that he gave me a $2 an hour raise and he felt I wasn’t thankful enough. That was it. That was when I really lost my shit completely. I whirled around, pointed my finger at him and told him “don’t you dare pull that shit on me! I have been in here every single day and have busted my ass for this company. I haven’t taken a single sick day and have only late twice (once was to pay a ticket and once was to renew my license). I came in here and brought my A game to the table every day. I have negotiated lower shipping rates across the board and taken charge of fulfilling our corporate orders (we supply chains like CVS, Rite Aid, etc.) and nailed every responsibility you’ve given me. I’ve lost 4 pounds in the last two weeks from the stress around here! I earned that raise and I’m sorry I wasn’t thankful enough for you so don’t you dare pull that shit on me!” I kinda ruined it by letting myself cry, but he’s a softy and caved immediately. His wife really really has him cowed.

        But, it was definitely not as civil as I initially represented it.

        I was specifically told, and actually have an email with this in it, that I was hired to be the bitch of the company so that we could get things done. Those two (CEO and president) know they are pushovers and wanted someone to hold others accountable. So I would do that, these other folks would reach out to them behind my back and they would be told to ignore me.

        So I guess one might say I’m just living up to being the bitch of the company. Seems I have some competition, though. CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    13. Good, Cheap, or Soon. Pick Two.*

      … Sweet Tap Dancing Monkey Savior on a Stick… he didn’t want to hear anymore about what this company is doing that is illegal? I don’t think Humpty and Dumpty are the only thing she has in her purse. I think she may have turned him into the Scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz and stolen his damn mind.

      Someone needs to take your CEO out for a drink and tear a strip out of him for letting this continue. He should just flat out fire Mr. Liability here and tell him to take his wife with him. “Keep your head down” is not the appropriate response in this situation.

      1. BAL or BLA(h)? Depends on the day*

        Yeah, isn’t that priceless? “I don’t want to hear any more about timecard fraud, final paychecks and unpaid employees. I don’t want to hear it! Verbatim.

        On the initial email with The Wife wherein I informed her what she was doing was timecard fraud, I included the CEO. But not the president. Because I knew he would have that response and I did not want this to get swept under the rug.

        I don’t plan on keeping my head down. I plan on going scorched earth……once I’m far enough away to make sure the fire can’t get to me.

  18. Windward*

    Checking references before interviewing candidates. Is this a thing, now? I’m hearing about it more & more. Why would someone do that? How would you know what to ask about without meeting the cadidate first? Any benefits to doing this?

    1. Washi*

      Never heard of that! I’ve heard of doing it maybe concurrently with final interviews, but before even starting the interview process? It just seems like a huge waste of everyone’s time, since so often you don’t get that much good info from a reference, and you’ll be checking them for so many more people than you will hire. I can think of only cons, no pros for doing this.

      1. kbeers0su*

        Agreed. You should be using a reference check as an opportunity to ask specific questions about someone you’re seriously interested in. It’s a way to fill in gaps/confirm things that the candidate said during the interview with their former manager/follow up on anything you pick up with your spidey sense during the interview.

        It’s also a huge waste of time for the references- imagine if every time someone you were a reference for applied for a job you had to do a check, not knowing if the company was taking their candidacy seriously or not? Like maybe they were one of 100 applicants for that role and they don’t even meet the preferred qualifications and there isn’t a chance they’ll even get an interview- why would you want to waste your time doing a check then?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m confused by this as well. Are they actually checking references (extremely bizarre)? Or just asking for a list of references, which they may check later if you get to that stage (slightly annoying)?

      1. Windward*

        They’re checking references to decide whom to interview. It makes no sense to me, which is why I’m asking here.
        I’ve seen this from both sides, all of a sudden: I’ve gotten calls as a reference to see if they want to interview former employee, & been told they’ll check references & let me know if they want to interview me afterward.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yes, that’s truly bizarre, and, frankly, a waste of the references’ time. I used to work for a recruiting company, and we would ask for candidate references up front, which would make available for hiring managers, but no one would actually check the references until just before the offer stage.

        2. Bex*

          Personally, I wouldn’t be comfortable turning over my references until I was far enough along in the interview process that I was pretty sure that I wanted the job. My references are great, and all are crazy busy. No way would I want them to waste their time on a company that wasn’t even sure they wanted to interview me.

        3. SophieChotek*

          Yes I have heard it’s a thing too — but I agree, I think it’s a waste of the reference’s time. Plus if the appropriate people cannot evaluate resumes/do good interviews to decide who to advance…I have no HR/hiring experience, but it seems like this process is messed up

    3. ThatGirl*

      The only place I’ve seen it is at a staffing agency, where they pre-vet people so that when they recommend potential employees, they can say they’ve been vetted. Anywhere else it just seems unnecessary.

    4. Violaine*

      I work in health care, and yes, this has happened to me numerous times. It’s been done online via a site called SkillSurvey (or any other site like it) and it’s just radio buttons or ticky boxes, and a couple of form questions (What does the candidate do well? What area could they improve in?). I don’t care for it, and I think it wastes my references’ time and effort to do these things over and over again I’m glad they have the patience of saints.

    5. I See Real People*

      My current company checks references. There is still a pretty high turnover rate despite this. Employees here are typically underpaid for the area, so that may be a factor. It’s baffling to me why they ask for/check references, because who would offer a bad reference to someone they knew would be calling on them?

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I don’t think it means you offer someone as a reference who would say something bad about you, but the quality of the reference check depends a lot on who’s doing the checking and what kinds of questions they’re asking. It’s best to stick to specific fact- and anecdote-based questions and really press the reference for details, but some people who “check references” just ask vague questions and are satisfied with glowing adjectives about the candidate.

        Also, as Alison has brought up in the past, it’s perfectly legitimate for the hiring workplace to contact former managers of yours that you don’t list as references.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Also, there’s positive, and then there POSITIVE! Anyone who’s working in admissions reading letters of recommendations can easily tell you the difference between a “This is my top student I can’t recommend enough” letter and a “I kind of sort of had to write this, because I took pity on this kid” letter.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yeah, it just happened to someone I know, for an IT job. They called his references before they contacted him at all. I thought it was pretty inappropriate.

    7. Anxiety Anon*

      I’m in education, and it’s really common to apply for open teaching positions through a big clearinghouse site. You input all of your information – resume, work history, credentials, etc on the site, then personalize bits like a cover letter for each job that you apply to. One option the employers can put in is references, and the applicant has the option to include a current supervisor or not, and for that supervisor to not be contacted until a potential contract offer. For the last job I accepted: I applied online, my references got an email a day later with a form to rank a bunch of attributes, and a few short answer prompts (“Describe a time this teacher overcame a challenge to improve instruction for their students.”) THEN, I received a call to do a screening interview, and three candidates out of the resulting pool were invited in for a sample teaching lesson and an in-person interview with the principals. They asked if it was okay to call my current principal at the end of that meeting, and I asked for one day to talk to him in person as he did not know I was job searching.
      So, that’s my really long story about references.

      1. Forking Great Username*

        I’m at the beginning of this process filled out! References have filled out the forms evaluating me and now I’m crossing my fingers for a phone call.

    8. Chaordic One*

      When I worked in HR my employer would do this and I’ve run into this quite a bit when looking for jobs. I don’t think it is all that unusual. In my experience employers would only do it with finalists and do it before interviewing them in order to verify the information on the resume and/or application. Most employers take this kind of information with a grain of salt, but too many discrepancies might result in someone not getting an interview.

      I think that employers do it because, sadly, there are many applicants who’ll mislead potential employers about their past experience and who think they’ll be able to dazzle the interviewer into hiring them for a job that they’re not well qualified for. It happens more often than it should and if an employer know this ahead of time, it can save time.

    9. Margali*

      We do it here, after a phone interview with the applicant. We have an extensive onsite interview process that includes testing, and we have found it works better not to waste everyone’s time having someone come in when they can’t provide good references afterwards.

    10. Kat in VA*

      /rant on

      This is especially timely. I went to apply for a job online today. The company ATS wanted me to upload a resume. Done, .pdf format, OK!

      Then they wanted the resume text copy/pasted in text format into a box. Uh, OK. Done. Then they wanted me to fill out several boxes for the companies I worked for (despite that information being in the two previously mentioned places). That was company name, address, phone number, contact email, dates to/from, manager name, SALARY, and duties fulfilled (all of which were on my resume and the text I copy/pasted).

      I filled out one box so I could advance to the next point in the ATS, and noted to refer to the resume for the rest because at this point I was rapidly losing my taste for this rigamarole.

      Next step? They REQUIRED (as in, I could not progress until I’d supplied) the name, title, company, address, phone number, and email of three professional references. At that point I left the job application unfilled, exited, and flipped off my screen.

      I’m not handing over the references of a Senior VP, a VP, and a Director before you’ve even graced my cell with a telephone call from a recruiter.

      I’ve been asked to supply my SSN to ATS, my W2 information for the last ten years (!), and damn near everything but my bra size. If that comes up, I won’t be surprised.

      I want a job, yes, I certainly do. But I’m done giving up every possible bit of information to companies when I don’t even know if they’re going to bother to call me for an initial screening.

      /rant off

  19. KatieKate*

    Just learned this week that 2 more people from my team are moving on, which essentially leaves….. me. And I am also looking to move on, but I was taking my sweet time with it because my current team is one of the things I love about my current job. And now most of them are leaving. So this is going to speed up my search…

    1. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

      I’m sorry; that’s the pits. A very small silver lining here is that, when asked in interviews why you’re leaving your current job, you can mention that over the course of X months, your entire team left. I’ve found it a useful way to communicate that my job had become gnarly, and it wasn’t me, without badmouthing my employer. Good luck!

      1. KatieKate*

        The thing is, it doesn’t say much about the team. We’ve all been here for at least two years–some for longer–and the others were just able to move on quicker. I was up for sticking around for a while because the others seemed like they were too, but it turns out they were just better at hiding their searches. It’s a great nonprofit job–just low pay and not a lot of room for moving up.

    2. Almost Violet Miller*

      Oh, I’m sorry, that’s a really hard spot to be in. I hope your job search will go well amd you’ll soon find something you’ll love equally if not more.
      I’m worried this will eventually happen to my team. To be honest, it’s not a team but members of different teams and one-person-departments in the same location, sharing the same office and cooperating on projects. One of us is leaving in a month, I know that two others are looking, the fourth person is being managed out, so that essentially leaves me and my intern. Your comment just made me think about how I’d react if everyone left… well, I’d be really sad and would probably start looking.

  20. MassholeMarketer*

    I’ve been a finalist for four different positions over the past few months but never end up getting the actually position and it’s making me so frustrated. I’m always told my resume and cover letter are awesome and my interview skills must be good because I pass the prior round interviews, but there’s always someone who is apparently a better fit for the job.
    Any tips on what I could do better? Only one interviewer has provided feedback when I requested it and it wasn’t too helpful. I’m employed now but I’ve been in the position I’m in now (first job out of college) for three years and I’m ready to move on.

    1. beanie beans*

      I’m really sorry – it’s so discouraging to keep getting that far and not getting the offer. I don’t have any good advice other than just keep trying – you must be doing a lot of things right to be a finalist for so many positions. When it comes down to that far in the process, it truly may not be anything you’re doing right or wrong – there are just other people who have more, or the right balance of experience they are looking for, especially if you’re just three years out of college.

      If it makes you feel better, I’m 18 years out of college and it took me a year and a half to land the offer I’d been hoping for. Too many applications, phone screens, interviews, final rounds. But they were all leading to this position that I’ll start in a few weeks.

      No one wants to hear to be patient, but it’s the only advice I’ve got!

      1. Marthooh*

        I came here to say the same thing. Can you think of the process as research and networking in your field, as well as a job search? That might help a bit with the frustration.

        1. MassholeMarketer*

          I’ve been doing this thing lately where I’ll look up the people who get chosen for the positions I didn’t get to see what they had over me, and that’s been helping. One person had a few more years of experience while another was a recent grad. It helps to figure out what they were really looking for.
          I’ve even gone as far as finding the open jobs they left and applying for them… no luck yet but I’m hopeful!
          I also recently contacted a few recruiters in my field and let them know they can contact me if anything permanent or temp-to-perm comes up.

      2. beanie beans*

        And no one likes to hear “it’s good practice” but it’s the truth! By the time I got to the interview process of the job I got, I barely had to review my notes to prepare and was so much more relaxed and confident and I’m sure that helped a lot with getting the job!

      3. MassholeMarketer*

        This REALLY made me feel better. I received my most recent rejection this past week and it wasn’t even for a job I wanted that bad but it still kind of killed me. I know something is out there – it’s just going to take some time.

        1. beanie beans*

          Ha, I turned down a second interview for a place that had Nascar-level red flags, and then ended up months later getting a standard-rejection email from them saying I hadn’t been selected. It made me laugh and cry at the same time since I was like “No, I broke up with YOU!”

          Good luck to you, and in the mean time, get as much training and new resume-building experience that you can from your current job!

        2. Kat in VA*

          I’m in the final round for two different jobs. I’m hoping for either of them (leaning toward the one with the shorter commute). I can’t keep the Mind Monkeys from whispering, “You’re not going to get either of them…”

          I’ve been job hunting since May and have gotten a whoooole lot of rejections – some just straight up autorejection emails, some of them coming after what I thought were quite stellar face-to-face interviews.

          It’s rough to not take it personally. Onward and upward!

    2. voluptuousfire*

      Been in your boat! I call it the “too much of not enough” syndrome. Someone else seemed to have that magical “X” factor I didn’t at the time. I can 100% understand your frustration. It’s annoying as hell getting to final rounds and not getting the job.

      Ultimately it’s timing, I’ve found–being on the right desk of the right person at the right time. As beanie beans said, be patient!

  21. Probably Not Interested*

    I had applied for a job at a company, and their HR coordinator e-mailed me to schedule a phone call with their HR manager to speak about my “experiences and interest in future opportunities.” It sounds like they want to get more information from me so they can consider me for other job openings in future, not the job I applied for. When replying with my availability, I asked if that’s the case.

    If the call is just meant to get more information about me to consider me for other job openings, is there a polite way to decline so that I won’t get blacklisted in case I want to apply to other jobs?

    I’m really only interested in arranging calls about jobs I’ve applied for. I don’t apply to any jobs that are posted by recruiters specifically because they always called to tell me the job has been filled, but got more information about me so they could consider me for future opportunities. I NEVER heard back from any of them, so it was a waste of time. This is an HR person, not a recruiter, but I can’t see the result being any different.

    (I realize one phone call technically isn’t a big time investment, so the politest thing might be to just go with it, but I have horrible phone anxiety, so having to be anxious for a few days leading up to the phone call and then feeling horrible about how badly the phone call went in the days after is a big time commitment for me in a way.)

    1. Tara S.*

      Maybe you could ask for that call to be partially transferred to email? Like, after you get on the call, if they make it clear they are only interested in you for other opportunities than the one you applied for, say that you would be willing to review the job postings if they sent you the links via email?

  22. SCshisho*

    (I’m a long-time lurker, shorter-time commenter, but this is the name associated with my blog because it’s just easier that way)
    I have a proposal (drum-roll please):

    Once a month professional development book club.

    Details: We pick one of the Friday open threads (I’m leaning towards First Friday just because it’s easier to remember) and everyone who wants can read the same professional development/work-adjacent/interesting industry-related book and then discuss it. If we post the title of the next book at the beginning of the “current” First Friday, then that should be plenty of time for people to at least read some of it by a month later.

    I have a blog (that reviews/recaps children’s books for storytime) and I’m happy to host a blog page with some book recommendations (I’ve got so many, I love reading professional and managerial and people-wrangling advice) and I have turned on the comments for that post so that people can leave suggestions for titles of their own; I’ll add them to the list. Once we have that list going, I have a Doodle poll where we can rank choices and then read the popular ones.
    Since the First Friday is next week, we could choose Alison’s newest book for our first “read” if that isn’t too weird, or a board-popular favorite like “Gift of Fear” since lots of us have read it already.
    Sound interesting to anyone?

    6. SCshisho*

      I’ve added some titles to the page (linked in my user name) and got them into alphabetical order by title. Please keep recommending titles or subjects if you’re interested and don’t see something that looks interesting.

        1. Emily S.*

          Oops! I just saw the Power of Habit is already on your list.

          I currently have a library copy, but I’ve been procrastinating on reading it. But I’ve heard some great interviews with Charles Duhigg that were just fascinating.

          1. SCshisho*

            I’ve got another of Duhigg’s books on the list too that I haven’t gotten to yet: Smarter Better Faster.

            I’ve added the Dan Ariely book – he’s another really interesting writer.

            Thanks for the suggestions!
            (the link to the poll for our August read is in my name if you want to vote – sorry I created it before I saw your suggestion. I’ll put it on the September list.)

    8. Anxiety Anon*

      Great idea! I just bought Contagious: Why Things Catch On as part of my job involves influencing coworkers without any actual managerial or supervisory power.

    9. SCshisho*

      Any preferences for our first book on July 6th?
      I lean towards Gift of Fear myself, BUT if a lot of us haven’t had a chance to read it yet, that’s a lot for one week. Do we want to just talk about the newest Ask a Manager book for our first attempt?

      We also probably ought to pick one for August also, since that’s practically a month away. (where does the time go?) I’ll link a poll in my username this time around and choose two from my list, and the two that were suggested here already. This will be for the August book, on August 3rd. Please Vote!

    11. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Love to!

      I’d prefer to stick with work/professional stuff and avoid The Gift of Fear (which I’ve read).

      I’m interested in Radical Candor and the Happy Healthy Nonprofit (which is relevant to non-nonprofits as well).

    12. LilySparrow*

      Sounds great, but I won’t have anything read by next week.

      I got a lot out of “Work Clean” by Dan Charmas.

      1. SCshisho*

        No worries, I don’t picture this as something where people participate every time. If you think you’ll have time over July, you are welcome to vote in the poll in my user name for the August discussion.

        I’ll add Work Clean to the list, thanks!

    13. Extra Vitamins*

      “Writing Your Dissertaion in 15 Minutes a Day”. It is meant for graduate students, but I’ve found the parts about how to actually get wiring done, and mentoring red flags to be useful in every job I’ve had.

      2. Extra Vitamins*

        Ugh. “Dissertation” and writing, not wiring. I can recommend a wiring book too, if that become a topic.

      3. PhyllisB*

        I don’t see a link to look at your list, so if this is already on here, forgive me. What about The No Asshole Rule by Robert Sutton? I have that but haven’t read it yet. Also I know a lot of people like Lean In by Sheryl Sanburg (is that right?) I read it right after it first came out and I liked some of it, but not all of it. Did have enough in it to make for a good discussion.

    14. Viola E.*

      Not sure if I’ll be able to participate, but may I offer a couple of recommendations? They’re not strictly “professional development” books, but if you’re into psychology, Thinking Fast & Slow by Daniel Kahneman and Influence by Robert Cialdini are both great. I had to read them for a social psych class in college and they are 1000x better than any textbook. (Influence may be more appropriate for your general theme.)

      1. SCshisho*

        Oh I really enjoyed Thinking Fast and Slow, but I haven’t even heard of the other one. My own book list is getting longer!

        I’ll add them both.

      1. SCshisho*

        I’ll add that on the list too, thanks!

        I’m offline for the rest of the day (its 4:40 Eastern US time now)
        I’ll check back in tomorrow and update the list again, and see if there are any opinions regarding next week’s discussion. If I don’t see anything, then let’s just talk about Alison’s book just to see how it works out this first time.
        Please vote in the poll (linked in my name) even if you aren’t sure you’ll be able to make it in August – I really see this as a super informal drop-in sort of thing.
        Yay reading fun books!

        1. PhyllisB*

          May I make a suggestion? Perhaps make it one (or two)books a month because a lot of people aren’t fast readers or have other things going on and just don’t have the time to read. I am a fast reader and can usually read 1-2 books a week, but there are times when I can only read a few minutes a day and will take me 2-4 weeks to finish a book. Not long ago I had a library book I had to renew 3 times (6 weeks total) before I got it finished. Wasn’t that hard a book to read; just didn’t have the time to read.

      2. Sami*

        Seconding “The Five Dysfunctions of a Team”.

        I also LOVE “The Speed of Trust” by Stephen M. R. Covey (Stephen Covey’s son). It was superb!

    16. Good, Cheap, or Soon. Pick Two.*

      I would definitely be interested. If we manage to keep this going, I do have a suggestion for a book coming out later this year. I saw one of the authors lecture and I’m very interested to explore what they have to say in more detail. “Winning the Talent War through Neurodiversity: Getting the Greatest Value from a Traditionally Overlooked Resource” by William Rothwell and Jonathan Zion.

    17. PhyllisB*

      Sounds good!! And I am all in favor of Alison’s book being the first one. I won it from Goodreads and haven’t had time to get to it yet. Was trying to clear out my list of library requests. Of course they all came in at the same time.

    18. SCshisho*

      Ok, looks like the July book will be Ask a Manager, and I’ll report the results of the poll for the August book choice in my first post on this Friday. It’s absolutely going to be one book per month – if people want to ‘read ahead’ or use the blog landing page list as a reading list please feel free! I think we should only discuss one a month so we have a low bar for participation.

  23. Samantha Jean*

    My coworker has an offensive bumper sticker, is this something I can complain to my manager about? I tried directly asking him to remove it or cover it with something but he got annoyed and claimed it’s his car and doesn’t believe it’s offensive. (It says Trump for 2020 with a picture of Trump’s hair) I would be against any political stickers in general but am I off base for wanting to take this further? I don’t know if my boss would agree with me since it doesn’t explicitly state any opinions but I think if it’s in the company parking lot, clients could see it and associate our company with these views.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yes, you’re off-base. People are allowed to have political bumper stickers on their cars, even for politicians you profoundly disagree with. You, in turn, are allowed to form your own opinions about that person, but you can’t escalate something like this. (I do recognize that this is complicated by the nature of that political politician. I’d give you a different answer if it were, say, a David Duke bumper sticker, but as long as one is for the sitting president, it’s going to be a hard sell, assuming you don’t work for a group with a mission explictly counter to his stances.)

      Please keep any replies to this one non-political. Thank you.

      1. Dino*

        I saw a car with multiple Trump bumper stickers that had the Confederate flag as the background image. It wasn’t at work or anything but if it were, would escalating it be fair? That flag has a very specific connotation but I’d worry that since it’s also supporting a sitting president that a workplace wouldn’t feel like they could do anything about it.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      Unfortunately I agree with Alison. Just Trump 2020 isn’t offensive – it’s like Obama 2008 or whatever. It would be offensive if it used one of Trump’s many catchphrases i.e. grab her by the p***y. Then you’d have grounds for asking him to remove it. I actually think you’ve already gone too far by asking him to remove it or cover it up. The best you can do is just not look at it.

    3. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      I think the key is really, is this person behaving appropriately in the office? If not, that’s your issue. Not everyone has to agree (think how boring the world would be!), but we do need to treat others with respect. As long as that’s happening, just don’t discuss politics ever :)

    4. Sylvan*

      Yeah, you’re overstepping.

      I have a gay pride flag sticker on my car, which some people don’t like. I still get to keep it.

      Like Alison said, it might be different if the sticker were more offensive: outright racist, insulting, etc.

    5. DaniCalifornia*

      I can understand why it might bother you, but I don’t think it’s worth spending the capital with your manager on this issue. Or even with your coworker. It’s the coworker’s car, so a personal item. I don’t even think it was a great idea to ask him to remove it in the first place. I would drop it and hope your coworker does as well, if this person was otherwise keeping to himself about his politics at work asking him to remove the sticker was off base.

    6. LCL*

      I get why the sticker is offensive to you. But the sticker as described is really innocuous. The smart employer won’t ask employees to display only those stickers that conform to a particular political view.

    7. Merida Ann*

      There was a previous question here from someone who was being asked to remove or cover an offensive sticker from their car at work, but in their case, it was *directly* insulting/offensive. (#2 at the link here: https://www.askamanager.org/2013/08/my-employer-wants-me-to-remove-a-sticker-from-my-truck-over-sharing-anxieties-and-more.html)

      But this is just a standard political sticker. There’s nothing directly offensive in the actual content of the sticker – you’re perceiving an *indirect* meaning based on how you feel about Trump, but all that’s actually visible is a name, date, and a patch of hair. You won’t get any traction at all in trying to have a political sticker removed from a coworker’s vehicle, and I think you would risk damaging your own credibility by asking.

    8. whistle*

      I absolutely cannot fathom how the word “offensive” is in any way applicable to the bumper sticker as described.

      1. Windchime*

        That’s my opinion, too. Whether or not I agree with the politics specifically, there is absolutely nothing offensive (to me) about the sticker as you describe it.

      2. Thlayli*

        Some people think that “it offends me because I disagree with it” equals “it’s offensive”.

        Samantha, that word does not mean what you think it means.

    9. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Oh dear… to be blunt if an employee asked me to tell another employee to remove a political bumper sticker… well I’m not sure what I’d do… but it would start with an incredulous look and probably a couple of minutes of silence while I composed myself enough to not laugh.

      Then I would explain that employees have every right to adorn their cars as they see fit as long as it doesn’t break the law or violate any company policies. I would go on to give my usual speech about professionalism to you with a heavy emphasis on not bringing outside issues into the workplace, and a warning that your continuing to pursue this with the employee may result in unwanted consequences.

    10. Nacho*

      I’m sorry, but that’s not offensive, and bringing it up to your boss would just make you look thin-skinned.

    11. En vivo*

      Don’t complain to your manager; you’ll be the one getting side-eyed. What you’ve described is pretty innocuous.

    12. Chaordic One*

      I used to work in a rural area where a lot of people drove pickup trucks to work. “Truck Nuts” hanging from a trailer hitch are definitely offensive. (If you don’t know what these are you should google it.)

      Also, while not in the same league as bumper stickers, I find the various “Calvin and Hobbes” stickers kind of borderline inappropriate.

      1. Kids know too much*

        Oh my, I had no idea what these were until my kids (preschool) in the car seats started commenting on “That’s a girl car.” And that one is “Really a boy car.”
        “How do you know that?”
        “Because he has boy stuff.”
        When the truck passed us I got a good look at the boy stuff – truck nuts. After almost driving off the road, I only had one reply, “Um, yeah, guess you are right.”

    13. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      Hmm. I don’t like him at all, but I can’t see how this is in any way offensive. I’d also be very leery of asking someone to alter their personal property which is not actually inside the office just because I don’t like the message. Maybe if the sticker is objectively offensive due to language or vulgarity, or has a message that runs counter to your organization’s mission, and the car is used to meet clients/customers or drive to work sites.

    14. LilySparrow*

      You’re totally entitled to let the sticker color your private opinion of your coworker. But it doesn’t have anything to do with you or with work, and it’s nowhere near the realm of insulting, vulgar, or offensive speech or imagery. So bringing it up with your manager or allowing it to affect your ability to work together is a no-go.

      1. Easily Amused*

        This could also be construed as the OP thinks the sticker is offensive because it is making fun of a sitting president (because of the detail about it featuring his hair). Either way, not your business.

  24. Help I need a ROWE*

    I’m tired of being scolded for getting my work done “too” efficiently. Any advice on how to find a ROWE, or at least a company that measures productivity by output, not number of hours worked?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      While I don’t actually get scolded for being too efficient, most places I’ve worked, regardless of your results, want you to put in the same amount of face time. If, for example, I’m 9-5:30 admin assistant, and you’re a 9-5:30 admin assistant, and you collate, stuff, address, and seal all the envelopes twice as fast as I do, return phone messages twice as fast as I do, and generate reports twice as fast as I do, you probably don’t get to leave right after lunch. I think a lot of people are inefficient because they aren’t rewarded for being efficient. They figure “Hey, I’m stuck here anyway. Why get my work done more quickly?”

      1. Help I need a ROWE*

        1) Part of an admin assistant’s job is to be present in case other employees need something from them. This doesn’t apply to my job. 2) I’d be fine with being required to stay in the office until 5 or whatever so long as I can do non-work things when I run out of work to do. I’m being scolding for running out of work to do, not for leaving the office.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          1) I was just using that as an example. Sure, if you need to be present to be available for someone else, I can see why you have to be around.

          2) Yeah, but part of that pesky “face time” is the “face” of appearing to be doing actual work (even if inefficiently).

        2. Jennifer*

          Unfortunately this is why you either have to work slow or look busy in some way that makes them think you are working on work projects. Or make up work projects if that is something you can do.

          Been there, done that. Still kinda doing it right now actually. But if you don’t always look busy, you are at risk of getting canned for being too efficient/'”we don’t need someone if they can get 8 hours done in 4 hours” sort of (ridiculous) thinking. Sad but true.

      2. Friday*

        “I think a lot of people are inefficient because they aren’t rewarded for being efficient. ” This is definitely true to a point. I’m a very efficient worker as well and how I mitigate it is A. I work in places where 40 hours is the norm and nobody’s ever told me ~*~*~optics~*~*~ are bad when I leave at 5pm, and B. I actively push myself to use the extra time I have to revisiting my work and challenging myself to make it better, make damn sure it’s all correct, find ways to expand on it in a useful fashion, etc.

        And also I’m here, but you know, this is a professional development website. :)

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          When I’ve been stuck at jobs where I get all my mandatory work done, I usually make up work for myself that’d be helpful (but not necessary) and then teach myself skills that are either tangentially or directly related to my job.

      3. Jady*

        *They figure “Hey, I’m stuck here anyway. Why get my work done more quickly?”*

        I must admit I am extremely guilty of this. I’m an extremely fast and efficient worker… when I decide to be. I have statistics and numbers to back that up. Never missed a deadline.

        I’m still here 8 hours a day minimum. I don’t get any kinds of incentives. It’s a battle to get significant raises for everyone here. Promotional paths are non-existent.

        So on a regular basis I’ll stretch 3 hours of work across 8 hours. Lots of blog reading (AAM!), experimenting with new software programs, chatting/email, news/book reading on my computer, etc…

        There’s just no point in busting my bum for anything. I’ve done it at previous jobs and just… got bitter, maybe? Watching Bob beside me taking 3 hours to do something I could do in 15 minutes, taking on other peoples workload, reporting people that were terrible at their work and seeing nothing happen about it, adding more and more responsibility on myself, etc – for what?

        (To be clear, I don’t hold up others. If someone needs something from me, I do it immediately. And I have a good reputation for “getting sh-t done” and quality work. Despite all of this. Which is incredibly confusing to me.)

        I’ve heard about mystical unicorn companies that let you manage your own time freely and focus on results and trust you to be an adult – but I sure as heck can’t find one.

        1. Help I need a ROWE*

          I found one in my field, but it’s in Kentucky. Not sure that’s worth it lol

    3. whistle*

      Can you hide how efficient you are (while looking for a job that actually rewards efficiency)? For example, exaggerate how long tasks will take you and fill out your time with personal business?

        1. Headachey*

          Well, you did use it assuming everyone reading would know what it means, so I appreciate the clarification.

          1. Help I need a ROWE*

            Everyone using this site has the same access to search engines.

            If someone doesn’t already know what a ROWE is, then they obviously aren’t familiar enough to give me advice on finding one, anyway.

            1. Anonym*

              Whoa, chill! Someone added context that will make the discussion valuable for more people. It’s a good thing.

            2. OhBehave*

              Chill indeed!
              This escalated unnecessarily! Just because someone may not be familiar with ROWE does not mean they wouldn’t be able to give you advice.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            And some of us did not feel like looking it up… things slow down after dinner and the desire to hit google is one of them.

  25. Susan*

    think I messed up royally.

    someone called out a few days ago, so some work was redistributed to others. One of the people it was redistributed to later brought it up casually.. “oh that’s happening a lot lately huh?” The way he said it really rubbed me the wrong way b/c he has a tendency to push back. Technically I’m higher than him but he’s bffs with someone who’s higher than me.

    She’s called out or had to leave early 2-3x in the past month. People get sick, things happen, not a problem.

    I meant to say — “not everyone can be as healthy as you.” (dude looks like Prince Eric from Little Mermaid, eats healthy, posts workout videos etc). Well…. I didn’t say the “as you” part b/c as soon as I said it I realized it’d sound too mean. So I stopped. And then I realized I threw the first person under the bus.

    Yeah I feel stupid. I always come up with great comments AFTER things happen. She doesn’t know it happened nor would she care but I feel bad for saying that.

    1. Tara S.*

      Unfortunately I don’t think there’s anything you could do at this point to make this better. If I were in your shoes, I would spend some time sitting with my shame feelings and then just tell myself to do better in the future and move on. I did something kinda similar to this a few months back and felt like I was just the worse person/employee ever. I told someone outside of work and they told that while, yeah, I should probably not do that again, that beating myself up over it for more than a day wasn’t going to help anything, so just move on.

    2. Schnoodle*

      I don’t think your comment was that bad. I’ve done much, much worse. And survived it. Multiple times.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think you’re way overthinking it – if you ended up saying “not everyone can be healthy”. I mean if you think really hard about it, maybe it sounds like you’re saying something chronic is going on with this other person, but really, it’s such a throw away comment in a throw away conversation that I don’t even think this guy thought anything of it. And if it comes up again or anyone asks about it, just say – “I meant that as nobody is healthy all the time”. Because really, that’s what you were going for. But this is (and should be) a non-issue, unless there’s a real dysfunctional gossip-y type culture in your office – that I don’t think this is even going to come up.

    4. Marthooh*

      I think your comment may have sounded a little awkward, but no worse than that. And even “… as healthy as you” doesn’t sound mean. Don’t worry about it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I have heard people say a lot worse things, really. And it is true, some of us are healthier than others of us.
        It’s BECAUSE of my health issues that I watch what I am doing. So I don’t have too many sick days. This puts me in the odd spot of not having many sick days but knowing I could have a lot of sick days if I am not careful.
        When I first started doing my self-care better, I watched other people take sick time. I started thinking “Do I just take care of myself so I can watch people get a bunch of time off that I don’t take?” That is when I started realizing that not all sick days mean being physically ill. I decided to call in once every 18-24 months and just take a low key day at home for no real reason. See, when I started watching others use sick time I realized that meant I needed some down time just to relax my brain from overthinking stuff. I needed to recharge ME. So a day at home in pjs reading a book was a good solution.

  26. Lex*

    Happy Friday! Would love to hear everybody’s experiences regarding apologies for harassment in the workplace. I launched a complaint a few weeks back relating to a coworker who kissed me, and had acted inappropriately in the past. As the process concludes (don’t know the outcome yet) there is a chance this person will want to apologize for their behavior. I’m inclined to say that I’d rather not have them contact me.
    For context, we usually work in different parts of the country and very rarely on the same accounts so I don’t anticipate seeing them or working with them in the foreseeable future.
    Has anybody ever been in this situation? Would you have preferred to have them apologize? Not have them apologize? This incident has caused me significant stress, and I just want to be done with this – would it be a mistake to say I just don’t want to hear from them?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I would say that they could send an email/letter that way the action is done but you can read or not read it at your own pace. It also saves you from having to speak to or hear the other person’s voice, which I found more triggering.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      I have to say that an apology as part of a complaint process doesn’t strike me as an apology at all. I feel like if the person was truly sorry, they would have apologised under their own steam before the complaint process even started, but that’s just my opinion. I wouldn’t be inclined to speak to them and allow them the opportunity.

      I’m sorry that this happened to you,

      1. Lex*

        Thank you! That’s exactly right. I think that any potential apology would just be for a box to check and then to put the burden on me to now be ok with the situation – as in “I apologized, what more does she want.”
        If that person would have wanted to apologize they could have reached out of their own volition. Plus I suspect it would be the kind of “sorry if you felt offended” “sorry if you misinterpreted my friendliness” apology, which I think would just make me feel worse.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      If it’s better for your mental health and emotional well-being to just say, “I don’t want to be contacted further in any way by this person.” then that is absolutely what you should do. Make this decision in a way that takes care of you with no consideration for this creeper and his feelings or your employer and their desire for closure. If it will cause you more stress to receive (or be forced to receive) an apology, then DON’T, please just don’t. Don’t feel pressured into further contact from someone who has traumatized you. And if the company tries to make a big deal over it (WHICH THEY SHOULD NOT), you could explicitly say, “you are pressuring me into further contact with my harasser, and I need you to stop.” That should be enough to clue in any reasonable person that they are being inappropriately pushy about you accepting this apology.

    4. halmsh*

      I think you can tell your manager/HR/whoever the relevant person is that you do not want this person to contact you outside of work related necessities. That is totally normal. After I was harassed at work, my manager would check in if I had overlapping meetings with harasser and provide accommodations so I wouldn’t have to go unless there was an absolute necessity (usually there wasn’t). The harassment in my case was intimidation/bullying, not sexual harassment, but I think the same practices should apply.

    5. Jersey's mom*

      I think it doesn’t matter a bit how I feel, or what I would do. You need to do what will make YOU feel better and less anxious. It sounds like it would be rare for you to cross paths with that person. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say that you do not want this person to contact you or otherwise send you an apology directly or indirectly via a third party. And in the future, you would prefer that the company avoid requiring projects or tasks assigned to either one of you that would result in having to work together whenever reasonably possible.

      If you read that paragraph and it’s what makes you feel less anxiety, then do it. Or use a version of it, again, to the level that makes your anxiety decrease. This is a perfectly valid response to what happened. Good luck!

    6. greenius*

      I would think it’s 100% okay to opt out of receiving an apology. Even well-meaning apologies can put the emotional work on the wronged party rather than the offender. In a situation like this, it makes perfect sense instead to avoid any contact, if that is what makes you feel more comfortable.

    7. Evil HR Person*

      I can’t, for the life of me, imagine that your employer would MAKE your coworker apologize to you – unless you were both in kindergarten and 5 years old. In instances such as these, *sometimes* HR – or whoever is conducting the investigation – will ask you what it is that you want the outcome to be, and you get to decide that you’d settle for: 1) an apology; 2) never to come in contact with that coworker; 3) termination of the coworker; or a combination of these. Whether they ask you or not, you are within your rights to ask to not be contacted ever by this person, not even for an apology. And your employer, if they’re smart, would respect that. They would also present you with the caveat that they may not terminate the person, even if that’s what you want.

      (Although, being the evil HR person that I am – and if the investigation determines that your coworker did, in fact, do these things to you – I would get rid of him/her post haste. I don’t want to have that kind of person in my company, potentially harassing other people as well as you. But that’s just me.)

      1. Lex*

        I’m glad you’re saying that. I have had a really hard time finding information online as to how such a process is supposed to work, and was really surprised by the idea that this person would apologize tbh. I kinda thought that for the most part the powers that be determine what they think the correct resolution is – such as some sort of mandatory training or something? – and that I would be out of that process for the most part.
        Btw – do you write the evil HR lady blog?

    8. Tuxedo Cat*

      I think it’s fine for you to say you don’t want any contact from this person.

      The thing with an apology in this context is that you might be expected to tell this person that you forgive them or somehow placate their feelings. You might not feel that way (and I don’t blame if you don’t- I wouldn’t). The best way for this person to apologize to you is to for them to do better towards you (and everyone else) in the future.

    9. Good, Cheap, or Soon. Pick Two.*

      If your HR makes noise about this, you can point out that many therapeutic programs point out that people who have been negatively impacted by someone’s actions have the right to decide contact. That is absolute because they have had their boundaries violated and need to feel safe. To that end, HR can help you feel your workplace is not hostile by proving your boundaries will be accepted. Part of those boundaries include never letting the man who committed assault (kissing you against your will does fall under this definition) contact you without your express permission. So, you simply say “At this time, my needs include no contact with X.”

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I think you have the right to say NO contact EVER including apologies.
      It’s not your job to help this person feel better about themselves.
      And it’s not your job to assist HR in their program for reconciling misbehavior. It’s up to them to handle it. Not you.

      Adding one more: It’s not your job to explain why this is your request/expectation. HR doesn’t need to understand why, they just need to say they will respect it.

    11. Lex*

      Thank you everybody so much for weighing in and your thoughtful responses. I had a really hard time processing the idea that this person might reach out to me about this. The more I thought about it the more I felt that allowing for that possibility allows that person back into my personal space. Rather than wanting an apology I want the ability to exclude them from that. So I ended up telling HR that I do not want for the person to contact me.
      Hopefully this chapter will now conclude quickly. Thanks again!

      1. Lex*

        Edited to add: it was really helpful to read that it’s ok to not want that contact. As a (recovering) people pleaser it can be hard to give yourself permission to do what feels right to you, even if other people at my company may view it as being difficult or high maintenance.

  27. straws*

    What’s the most considerate way to address prejudiced comments with someone when it’s about their own group? We hired a woman a few months ago, and recently a manager came to me concerned because this employee was speaking very negatively about her home country and its people. For reference, we’re a very small company (18 people) with no official HR. However, any HR issues or tasks generally fall to me, so I want to advise on this appropriately.

    1. Not Today Satan*

      What does she say? I think the answer would be different if it’s about any sort of social injustice (“women in country X are just expected to have babies”) vs something like “everyone in Country X is an idiot”,

    2. Emily S.*

      Alison has addressed this in the past.
      Address the offensive comment directly, she says, in a matter-of-fact way, such as: “Wow, that’s very offensive.”

      1. straws*

        If others do have a concern about it, that’s certainly what I’d advise, and I could have been more clear about that. In this case, the manager wants to have a direct conversation, so something more along the lines of telling her that others may find her statements offensive, etc. The manager is concerned about the perception of a white manager telling a minority employee to not be racism against her own group.

        1. Delphine*

          If it was a one-time conversation, does anyone need to have that conversation? She’s not being racist against her own people, or necessarily prejudiced–she’s expressing an opinion that she’s within her rights to have, and if it doesn’t come up again I’d consider leaving it alone.

    3. LCL*

      “In this office, we don’t speak badly of any ethnic group or nationality. Even the one we belong to. We can’t allow this kind of talk because if one person starts it, others may join in.”

    4. Mazzy*

      I’d go the route of “this is a useless distraction and people are going to be thinking about X county and not your work when dealing with you.” That way you address the impact and stop it without having to change how they think, because you’re probably not going to be able to do that.

    5. OhNo*

      This might be a case for the “you’re entitled to your opinion, but it must be expressed professionally” speech. That way you don’t have to navigate the dangerous waters of telling her not to talk about her own country/people, but still nip in the bud expressing overly harsh or derogatory opinions of groups of people.

      The line I, personally, draw is: would I saw this about a group of my coworkers where they could hear me? No? Then it’s probably not safe to say about people or groups outside of work, either.

    6. LilySparrow*

      Well, since it’s about her home country I would wonder why she holds that opinion. Obviously she doesn’t live there anymore. Nobody leaves their own country to seek a job elsewhere unless they have reasons to. These comments may be her way of processing a bad situation.

      If she’s fixated on the topic or injects it inappropriately into conversations, that’s something to bring up. But I’d be very loath to tell someone they are “racist” because they mentioned once or twice that there was a lot of trauma/toxic culture/misogyny/violence/poverty/lack of education/political brainwashing or whatever back home.

      Perhaps that’s a place to start. “I’ve noticed you mention this a lot. Tell me about it, why is it on your mind?” If she needs to get something off her chest, giving her space to do that privately could go a long way toward establishing a good relationship with her manager instead of being weirdly reprimanded for voicing “incorrect” opinions about *her own life*.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Good luck with that. I had a family member who was an X. He had non-stop snide remarks about Xs. I mean it was at least 1 remark every five minutes. It was awful to listen to all the time. Awful. Some how every single subject lead back to how stupid Xs are. Every subject.Family member never ran out of ways to make Xs look more horrible than the last time they spoke of Xs.

    8. Jane of all Trades*

      Honestly, I would bring it up exactly the same way you’d bring it up if this was not specifically her home country. It doesn’t really matter why she has these opinions, they have no place in the work place. So if she makes such comments often enough to where you would say something if she were making them about people from an unrelated country, I would suggest telling her that comments that make negative generalizations about people based on their national origin are offensive and therefore not appropriate in the workplace.

  28. Okay or snooping?*

    You’re a manager and you need to find something that you think might be in an employee’s file cabinet. Employee is out of the office. Is it legitimate to go into the employee’s office and look through their files, or is that unreasonable snooping?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      If it’s work-related, I fully expect any of my coworkers or my supervisors to have the ability to look through my files if they need them.

      1. Okay or snooping?*

        So does that mean that you also wouldn’t put in your files anything you wouldn’t want your boss to find?

        1. Not Karen*

          I’ve stored sanitary napkins in my work filing cabinets for emergencies before. Don’t really want my boss to find that, even though it’s not inappropriate or anything.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I file those under “things you’re probably going to find that are normal to a large chunk of people to have handy, and if you see them, well you’d see them in the grocery store too, so NBD.”

            1. Anonymosity*

              Same. Since a ton of cubes have those short two-drawer file cabinets, I put my personal stuff in the bottom and all my work stuff in the top. Most people will go for the top and if they happen to see a pad, they not gonna die.

        2. Environmental Compliance*

          Uh, yeah? Anything that I wouldn’t want them to find I would assume is personal (like a medical test result or something), and I don’t keep that at work?

          Any of my work is accessible. I don’t save anything to the desktop apart from in-progress files, and everything else is on the shared drive. Any files are labeled & organized appropriately.

          Is there somewhere you’re going with this question in particular?

          1. Okay or snooping?*

            Well, yes, sort of. And I suspect that knowing the full question, you’ll switch to snooping. I’m trying to absolve myself of the guilt I’m feeling. I was looking for something in my employee’s (not as well organized as yours) files, and came across a folder labeled with my name and “miscellaneous.” I was curious (here’s where you’ll decide it was snooping) and it turned out it was her documentation that she is accumulating so that she can appeal if I terminate her. I probably shouldn’t have read it, and that’s on me, but I also wanted to make sure that the initial looking in the files wasn’t off-base.

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              Well, there’s your answer. I think you started off legitimate, and then it crossed into snooping. However, if I were the employee, that’s not something I’d just leave in my files at work, tbh, especially with the person’s name on it.

              2. nonegiven*

                Who is not going to open a folder with their own name on it? She could have labeled it private, instead.

            2. DaniCalifornia*

              Ooof! So looking for a work file while they’re out = not snooping. Reading the file that you know you aren’t looking for, is snooping but also she’s not smart for labeling it that way or leaving it where anyone can easily find it.

              I don’t have further advice but I can 100% understand the temptation of reading that folder. I know Alison would have better advice.

              1. Okay or snooping?*

                I don’t think so, but my reading the file certainly would add to her arsenal if she knew I’d done it.

                1. LilySparrow*

                  Um, yes. Yes it would.

                  Perhaps you should rethink whether or not her perspective is valid.

            4. BenAdminGeek*

              Somewhat related, after I terminated an employee, we found a similar folder where he had highlighted various lines from emails I had sent, as if trying to prove how terrible I was for saying things like “Tim, this was due a week ago, when will it be completed?” It made for some hilarious anecdotes.

              He also saved what he felt were compliments on his awesome work from our clients. Most of them were replies to emails saying things like “Thanks, Tim!” It explained a lot about why he was surprised we fired him.

            5. OK*

              You should not feel guilty. You SHOULD look in your own office and confirm that there’s nothing in it that you wouldn’t want your boss to find.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        FWIW – I keep my files hyperorganized, so I would expect anyone who needs a file to find it within a couple minutes. I also expect that my stuff isn’t thrown about, and things are put back appropriately. Please do not do what a previous boss did, ignore all labels, throw everything willy nilly back on my desk (not even into the actual file cabinet) without their paperclips, and put things back into the completely wrong folders.

        They were color coded!! With labels!! And it wasn’t anything she actually needed or time-sensitive, she just was curious! And why would you ever remove the paperclips and then scramble all the files around???! Gaaaaah! It took me nearly the entire morning to fix all of it when I came back.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t call it snooping, unless you’re looking for personal (not work-related) things. That said, before rummaging through people’s stuff at work, it’s generally a good idea to try to reach them first (email, text message, whatever your office uses to communicate when people are out) so they can tell you where exactly to look.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Yeah, if the person is available to answer quick questions (so not, say, hospitalized) they may be able to text back “That would be filed under Petunia Gumption. Or possibly Soylent Green” and you don’t have to look at every vaguely plant-related keyword you can think of.

    3. LQ*

      Not snooping looking for work things in work files. If you accidentally open the file drawer where they store snacks or personal things, close it, erase it from your mind and try the next drawer. I always assume my coworkers might do this at my office and I’ve done it for my coworkers plenty of times.

    4. Tara S.*

      This doesn’t feel great. Even if you had a right to (work environment/office), was it something you absolutely needed that day? Could you have emailed the person for the info, or maybe even have asked where in their files it was? You already established in the replies that you crossed the line into snooping once you looked through the folder with you name on it, but in the future I would avoid doing going into people’s files at all. Not necessarily because you can’t, but because it’s more respectful.

    5. Schnoodle*

      It’s sweet of you to be this considerate. But, go ahead. If you need it for work, just go get it done.

      Now, if you wandered around and started looking through obviously personal stuff, that’s s a different story.

      That said, when they are in, you can let them know “Sorry I had to get in your file cabinet while you were out, I needed X for Y. Hopefully won’t happen again.” Or something like that.

      But work space is just that – work space. There shouldn’t be too high presumption of privacy.

    6. Delphine*

      Unless it was time-sensitive and you’d had no luck trying to contact me, I would find it very odd for someone to be rummaging around in my file cabinet.

    7. Nita*

      My gut response is – it would be reasonable if the employee has told you whatever you’re looking for is in a specific cabinet, or you’ve emailed them and they told you you’re free to look. Otherwise, it feels weird to be the one digging through someone else’s stuff, and even weirder if someone sees you doing it and you don’t explain.

    8. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Reasonable and expected.

      I used to have to do this with one of my employees, for some reason she squirrelled away things like her rolodex with all of the important contact information of people/companies we did business with. I mentioned the first few times when she got back… hey I needed to call the nut supplier yesterday while you were off… you may want to relocate the numbers where the rest of the team has access when you are gone. She never moved them so I didn’t hesitate to go looking for them.

      Big qualifier… if you are looking for something that you have a general idea where it’s located and it’s work related and it’s either time critical or a major inconvenience if it were to wait…. you are good.

      Anything outside of that starts getting iffy.

    10. Girl friday*

      If common courtesy says to ask first, and one doesn’t feel inclined to, I would not act on that feeling.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Didn’t Alison do a whole thing on expectation of privacy? As in, we should not have ANY expectation of privacy?

      I think you are fine here. I decided early on to keep things in my desk/work area in such a manner that boss, prez or anyone could go through “my stuff” at any time. Sure, there was a hair brush, female products and similar items but the explanation for the item was obvious.

      This is not just about bosses. What about inspectors who suddenly appear? Let’s see, fire inspectors, insurance inspectors, various auditors, OSHA and so on. As far as I can see, anyone can walk in at any time and say, “Whatcha doing here?”, and that employee has to be accountable for what is in their work space.

      This is her mistake for not keeping that file at home. It’s probably part of a series of expectations she has for her work place that are not reasonable expectations.

  29. Hectic offices/office culture mysteries*

    Something I’m intrigued by is how office cultures come to be, and especially how some companies get to the point of unhealthy cultures. I’m contracting at a place that’s new to me, and something that strikes me is that people run/speed walk ALL DAY. They actually have Skype on their computers, but all communication seems to be verbal. It drives me crazy! It might seem minor but it makes the place SO much more hectic and stressful than it needs to be. I’m wondering why some senior manager hasn’t been like, “stop running around! sue skype ffs!” But I guess some people thrive under stress. =\

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It usually comes from the top, either through bad hires, bad behavior modeling, or a combination of the two.

    2. LQ*

      Verbal culture might come from a high fear of if it’s on paper it’s public (I know that plays a role around here). And we have a couple who run/speed walk and they want to be seen as super busy (the few times I’ve done it I had a super urgent, the thing is down thing happening). But I’d bet anything that the bosses and senior managers are the biggest perpetrators or the supporters of it.

    3. WellRed*

      Well, maybe they’ve taken all the fitness advice to get up and walk over to your coworker’s office instead of sitting all day to an extreme ; )

    4. EmilyAnn*

      I went from a workplace where we did a lot of in-person talking and very little messaging. I used the IM system to chat about non-work things more than work matters. I actually prefer the old job in a way. There is so much greetings, making sure things sound right written down, checking for spelling and grammar. It’s what we have to do because we have so many remote and teleworking employees but there is something to be said for getting an in-person answer.

    5. Smiling*

      Guess I never thought of running around as stressful. We’re all on the same floor and not too far from each other. Our network is internal only (no internet access for IP reasons) so we haven’t really embraced any type of IM tools. Plus, people don’t always check their internal email on a regular basis. We pick up the phone or go visit the person if needed.

      1. Hectic offices/office culture mysteries*

        I don’t think the act of walking is stressful, but at least for me, working in a cube and having people CONSTANTLY speed-walking past my desk from all angles is stressful.

    6. Persimmons*

      When I’ve worked places in which in-person conversations were expected, rather than in writing, it was often due to issues of discovery/paper trail. (Not in a shady way, in a “protecting IP” way.)

      1. Hectic offices/office culture mysteries*

        This is just a nonprofit that no one cares enough about to sue, and most/all of the conversations are too benign to worry about discovery in a hypothetical lawsuit.

        1. Another Person*

          At my old toxic job everyone especially management ran around like this. It was an local government agency where they didn’t want to put anything in writing due to public records laws.

          So I started just calling people. On the phone. And my boss came over and called me out and said I needed to get up and go talk to people. I said why, I’m not putting anything in writing.

          He said to give people a sense of urgency. I said, but not everything is urgent.

          I don’t work there anymore.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Am chuckling. One of the busiest (and toxic) places I worked for had a culture of no running, ever. If you were running that meant you had lost control over your work flow. (No one had control over their work flow. They were all buried.) So newbies who ran got laughed at. You never admit that you have lost control.
      It was so strange.
      Any way some places do discourage running because it is a safety issue. The runner could collide with someone or could slip and fall.

  30. Planning to succeed*

    My wider team is setting a vision and team goals for the year ahead (we’re an internal company service team that has tended to react more to servicing requests from stakeholders as a way of deciding what work we do, but now we’re trying to set more of our own agenda/projects in addition to our support work.)

    My question is, how can I (manager) best support my sub-team to understand and act in line with them? We’ve not really had a bigger picture plan before and my particular team is very process focused, but I want them to be more creative and flexible and deal with more complexity without needing a standard process in the year ahead, so understanding our overall goals is important. Has anyone worked in or managed a team with a clear vision and long term plan? What did you do to adopt and work with it during the year, not just when it was rolled out?

    1. ExcelJedi*

      This is something I do a lot of. One of your most important tools will be the plan (or goals) itself. Refer to it in meetings. Hang it on the wall, where people can see it. Have team-builders and brainstorming sessions around it. (I’ve done team builders teaching SMART goals; scheduled meetings to talk about a strategic goal set for 3 years out and brainstorm short term action steps; engaged people in figuring out their own metrics of success for each goal; and had meetings where we go over annual reports and strategic indicators as a team.) Make it a part of how things are done here.

      In short: your team isn’t going to remember it or change their thinking unless you make a very concerted effort to remind them often. It’ll take at least a year, probably more, before it become natural for them. Be patient.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      This stuff is interesting.
      My theory is that teams are process focused because that is their job to focus on the process. It’s managements’ job to have an overview or road map of what the group is doing.

      So it sounds like you want them to do projects in addition to their support work. The first thing they need is the time to do the additional work. The next thing they need is easy access to the tools/materials to do the additional work.

      Support work by it’s nature tends to be reactive, not pro-active. They really have no idea what requests for help will come in on any given day and how intense those problems will be. They have no control over that and it is super important that management understand this critical part. If you don’t show you understand this part you will lose their attention.

      If it were me, I would start at the VERY first square. I’d find out what is chewing up their time with the support work. See if there are enough employees, enough tools. materials, and training for them to be confident in their work. Some managers hate this because it feels like taking three steps backwards in order to move one step forward. But if you don’t have a strong foundation to build on then your new house will be shaky. At this point involve them in the process of picking tools, material, training. They KNOW what they need, let them tell you.

      This takes a bit to do and if you have done it well you will see changes in them. As a group they will act lighter and they will handle things in a smoother and more efficient manner.

      This is where your time comes from for doing the projects. If you let them participate in streamlining the work they have they will probably pick up speed. Then start with smaller projects. Make note how long it takes them to do each project. This will help you estimate how long future projects will take. Once you get the time frames start teaching them how to forecast time frames. It can be done, I have done it. In the end, they were more accurate than I was in forecasting. I used their numbers instead of my own. I did this in just under a year.

      We had no control over planning out our year. Our work got dumped in our laps. We did have deadlines and we met all of the deadlines and sometimes asked for more work because there was nothing to do.

  31. AcademicAdmin*

    The recent post about using first names vs. titles (and the correct titles) made me think about something that’s still a dilemma for me sometimes.

    I work in academia, and it can be normal for staff to be somewhat formal with faculty, especially ones the don’t know well. And attitudes can differ–some faculty members are themselves a lot more formal, whereas others are very casual and laid-back.

    It can be hard for me to determine when it’s appropriate to start addressing someone by their first name if they haven’t told me to. Sometimes I go by things like how they sign their e-mails or identify themselves on the phone, but I’m still hesitant in that case. And I’m wary of being inconsistent and either coming across like I’m less respectful of some people or like I’m less friendly toward some people, but even within my department, there are people who explicitly prefer to go by their first names and people who seem more formal.

    Thoughts?

    1. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      If they signed emails with their first name, you’re probably safe. Also, take cues from other people around you. If everyone uses title for a particular person, go with title until told otherwise.

      1. GibbsRule#18*

        And then you get the faculty members who sign their emails “Bob Smith” which is of no help whatsoever. Am I supposed to call then Bob Smith every time I talk to/about them? I just usually respond to emails with Dear “Dr. or Professor”

        I worked in a department where we called faculty by their first names, except in front of or to a student. Which led to some interesting names when a student came in and I was talking to a faculty member. “BobuhhhDr. Smith can help you with that”

    2. Lia*

      I also work in academia (on the administrative side). I always use “Dr. SoAndSo” if they have a PhD, and “Professor” if not on the first contact. I let them tell me “Oh, call me Dave”, and nearly all will after the initial contact. I do this regardless of how they sign their emails.

      Much easier, IMHO, to be too formal than too informal. I also address deans as “Dean XYZ” rather than “Dr.” on first contact.

      1. Tara S.*

        ^ same. First email (or referring to them in communication to outside people) is always Dr. X. If they sign off their email with “Cindy,” then I switch to using Cindy in email/in person. I see this as the default and only stick with “Dr. X” if I get cues from other people that it’s important. I do also try to use “Dr. X” in documentation (even internal), but email/phone communication is typically first names.

        2. physicsStaff*

          (academic staff here) Another quirk that might be good to be aware of is that I’ve had Dr’s who teach, but are not professors, object to being called Professor. Just a reminder to be sure what someone’s title is before defaulting to professor. Maybe it’s different at other american universities, but at this one we pull in adjuncts from the research staff.

          1. Rosemary7391*

            Yeah – Professor is used very differently in the UK ! I cannot comprehend calling someone without a doctorate professor… just no. Does not compute. Might be something to do with the fact that one of my PhD supervisors is not a professor, and the other got promoted a couple of years into my PhD.

            However, in general this might be something both field and institution dependent. Which makes it a real pain! I’d go by your colleagues as the best guide tbh. Or, just ask? I wish people could be more straightforward about this, although I do wish for a lot sometimes…

      2. A Professor*

        Yes, I think this is right. Default to more formal, at first. But if they sign emails to you with their first name only or otherwise indicate they prefer you to use their first name, please do so. I wish our staff here would just call me by my first name, but they default to Dr. even when I request that they use my first name. Default to the most formal, but once you know them, please accommodate their preferences (which might be much less formal).

    3. Assistant to the Dean*

      I also work in academia, higher ed administration. I call all the faculty by their first names, when I started, I noticed all of the other administrative staff address them in that way.
      I do refer to them as Dr./Professor so and so if I am speaking to a student or someone from outside our university.

    4. Tiffany*

      I work in higher ed on the administrative side, I work with faculty who have doctorates and some in the arts with terminal MFA degrees. I call them by their preferred name based upon how they sign their emails and how they address me. I also have a PhD so if they prefer to be called Dr. X, I make them call me Dr. T. I constantly advocate for staff to be treated as equals because often that is not the case.

    5. Overeducated*

      This is petty, but I made this decision today when I emailed a professor “Dear Dr. So and So” and he emailed me back “Dear Ms. Overeducated.” My PhD is in my email signature, which is standard practice in my organization. After that I switched to his first name.

      More broadly, I think after you’ve interacted with someone in a non-military workplace a few times, it’s odd to keep using titles and fosters a more unpleasantly hierarchical environment.

    6. Alianora*

      I work for a prestigious university, but for a set of summer programs geared towards high school students. The instructors we employ vary from grad students to tenured professors. My department in general is pretty casual, definitely first names-only basis within our staff even for the directors who have PhDs.

      When I started, I noticed that my coworkers just refer to all instructors by first name, so I followed their example. It feels friendlier in any case, and this way I don’t really have to remember which instructors have their doctorate out of the ~100 who I interact with regularly.

      If I were in your position, I’d go by however they refer to themselves or follow your coworkers’ cues. As long as your general tone towards everyone is respectful but warm, and you start out formally before switching to first names, I don’t see how anyone could fault you.

  32. Stephanie*

    Hi everyone!

    I’m curious to get everyone’s thoughts about an MBA. To clarify, this would be part-time. My job is heavily pushing it for the new employees (as in…they told us about it on our first day) and we can start it whenever we would like (i.e., there is no waiting period). It would be paid for, upfront, 100% with a two-year clawback after completion. I work as an engineer at a F50 company. Reason I believe they are pushing it is because we’re engineers working in procurement–I deal with the engineering aspects of the items we procure.

    I am undecided. I already have a technical masters, although I’m picking up that it’s not viewed equivalently to an MBA here. I sit in on calls with my paired buyers and do find myself googling a lot of terms they use, so it could be advantageous in that regard and if I did want to leave my function. There’s one Top 10 and a Top 50 program locally that the company would pay for.

    That being said, I do worry about making myself overqualified in some regards, if that makes any sense. That is, I’d have the degrees and maybe not the experience to back them up. If I did do the program here, it’d mean I’d be at this company for five years, factoring the time to complete the program plus the clawback (I was aiming for minimum 3-5 years anyway).

    So thoughts on this? Truly undecided, so open to everyone’s takes.

      1. Penny pen pen*

        I manage two MBA programmes (one full and one part-time), and my students have all sorts of reasons for applying. If you can get in to a top tier school on a full ride from your employer then I would say go for it. Aside from the increase in salary potential down the line, the big thing you’ll get is networking with others which I think is the really invaluable part. In terms of having degrees but not experience I wouldn’t worry about that too much as you’ll still be working at the same time and building your knowledge as you go. Usually I would say that the big downside is balancing the academics with work, but if your company is keen then it should in theory at least mean they can give you some extra flexibility at times that you might need it.

      3. Jules the Third*

        YES, DO IT. MBAs are the equivalent of about 10 years of industry experience.

        You have enough experience for it to be really useful, and to give you a better view of the bigger issues surrounding your company. You may not use every aspect of it in every job, but you’ll always have that bigger picture influencing how you see things.

        I do recommend the Intro to Project Management course as early as you can take it. I took it 1st semester and used tactics from it for the rest of the degree program.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Hey Stephanie! I realize I’ve been on this site and at my job a lonnggg time, because I remember when you were thinking about getting the MS. Overdue congrats on the degree & job!

      I think it is a little unusual, but I don’t think it’s unusual to the point that it would make you overqualified or look odd with having an MS, too. My company rotates engineers through procurement and sometimes other business functions, and you’re going to get OTJ training, or go through company-developed training. We offer education reimbursement, but it’s not encouraged for everyone to get an MBA or EMan degree. If they promote someone up to the SVP level, then they might specifically encourage it, but I haven’t seen it for the general staff.

      I think it would be a good thing and an asset on your resume, if you can stomach more school.

    3. DaniCalifornia*

      I think one aspect to weigh is how heavily will the company push on it? Especially if they brought it up first day on the job. My husband got a BS in EE and was hired right after college. When hired no one said anything about a masters. But within one year there he realized he was the anomaly. Everyone had a masters degree. Coworkers that were hired after him had one, bosses, etc. Eventually most of his coworkers and managers were asking him when he’d be going back to school. So 3 years ago (4 years into working at his job) he started it. And he has mostly hated it. The time suck of a masters in EE while working full time was seriously felt. He’s smart, we don’t have kids, I am also in school so I can empathize and it’s not an issue in our marriage. But it’s paid for by his company and he was grandfathered into no refunding the company if he leaves, only if he fails a class. He’s never been not able to do his job without a masters. But he was well aware that at his company he probably wouldn’t advance further without it.

      For what it’s worth I don’t think you’d look too overqualified. If anyone even asked you could say it was helpful because the field/job/path you were on at the time required that knowledge.

    4. Emily S.*

      If you want to make more money in your career, long-term, it would be smart to get an MBA — especially if it’ll be paid for by your firm. It will be a LOT of work (my ex got one while we were married, and did it online while working full-time. It was tough, but he did it, and would up with a very well-paid position), but part-time, it’s manageable.

      So IMHO, it would be worthwhile if you want to increase your future earnings.

      Here’s an article from the Princeton Review about the ROI of an MBA degree. There have been several studies on this.
      https://www.princetonreview.com/business-school-advice/mba-cost-and-roi

      Also, here is an MBA ROI calculator:
      https://aringo.com/mba-return-on-investment-roi-calculator/

    5. !$!$*

      I would do the MBA with those terms. My bias is that I’m an LCSW (social work) and my large nonprofit doesn’t tend to promote anyone to management without an MBA. Regarding being overqualified, I dunno if this is AAM approved or not, but couldn’t you just leave it off your resume for any job application especially since you’re working at the same time and won’t have any gaps

    6. Tara S.*

      Hmm. The clawback means it’s not actually free (at which point I would say, if you want to, go for it). But since you’ll have to pay for it? Consider what other people have written here, I’d be more wishy-washy about it.

      1. Natalie*

        I’m pretty sure Stephanie means she would have to repay it if she left within 2 years of completing it, not that she would be repaying it 2 years later no matter what.

        1. Stephanie*

          Yeah, that’s right. If I leave the company before two years after completion, I have to pay them back.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I got a little hesitant at the claw-back, but at only two years, it doesn’t seem too terrible. A five-year would get a lot more resistance from me.

        1. Stephanie*

          Yeah, I had a job that had a four-year clawback for some degrees, and not that many people did it as a result.

    7. Persimmons*

      If I had the option to get an MBA that was company-paid and encouraged, and staying past the pay-back date was within the time frame I intended to stay employed there, AND it was a respected program that would be considered valuable elsewhere, then my answer would be “heck yes!” Do the Top 10 program and don’t look back.

      Engineers with MBAs in my field have a HUGE leg up when it comes to promotions into management.

      TBH I rarely see being overqualified as an issue. A resume should be tailored to the job you’re applying for–if a degree isn’t applicable, leave it off.

    8. Bex*

      I’m biased, since I finished my MBA a couple years ago. I think the top 10 program would be worth it, but not the top 50. For me, it has greatly expanded my network, opened tons of interesting doors, and was a direct factor in my new job where I almost doubled my salary (I was hugely underpaid before, but it was still a massive jump.)

      I worked full time while doing my MBA. It was a brutal schedule, and utterly exhausting, but I honestly loved it.

    9. Nerdgal*

      Engineer with MBA here! I have found the MBA degree useful, both in my professional and personal lives. Why not sign up for the first couple classes and see how it goes?

    10. periwinkle*

      I also work for a F50 company with many engineers and a “get more degrees, we’ll pay for it!” culture. Same company, perhaps.

      There is a lot of value to being a skilled technical expert who also has strong business acumen. You’ll know how to justify technical or process changes from both the technical perspective and the financial perspective, and can delve into the details without losing sight of the big picture. Heck yeah, get that MBA.

  33. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    Today is my last day! Yay!!!

    And I’m SOOOO glad. There was an impromptu team meeting yesterday afternoon that was the boss telling everyone that:
    1. She knows how hard everyone’s worked this year
    2. But we’re really behind
    3. The quality of the work isn’t good enough
    4. She knows all sorts of reasons why (understaffed, poor training, bad managers, the process is screwed up, etc)
    5. She wants Solutions, not excuses. Give her ideas. Think about it, doesn’t have to be right now.
    6. But we’re not changing the process at all

    Well, I think I found part of the problem here. The boss.

    1. Violaine*

      It’s my last day, too, though I don’t want to leave (military-related family move)! I came to this job from a job that sounds JUST LIKE the one you are describing, with an extra side of blurred personal/professional boundaries. It made me a little hesitant and cautious to warm up to my current (soon to be former :( ) co-workers, but in the end I found a place I loved to work. There are better places out there – I’m glad you’re getting out! Congratulations!

    2. irene adler*

      I gather boss was out the day they taught employee motivation.

      Well, at least they are not on the Titanic.

    4. OhNo*

      I’ll admit, I’m laughing at the combination of 4 & 5. If she knows why you’re having those problems, then she knows what the solutions are. She just doesn’t like them!

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Exactly. Mgmt knows what the problems are, but they don’t want to do what’s necessary to fix it. Not my problem anymore!

  34. Doc in a Box*

    Last day at my current job! I’m writing a farewell email to the department (as well as thanking people individually) — should I include my new work email, or my personal email?

    3. pleaset*

      Personal. Unless you are going to a position where you might be collaborating with your old colleagues (possible particularly in government, academia and the nonprofit world), in which case you might share both.

      1. Doc in a Box*

        I likely will be collaborating with my current (or I guess now former?) research mentor, but I ended up going with personal. If the work collaborations pan out, I can transition them back over to my new work email.

  35. Environmental Compliance*

    Hubs is waiting to hear back after a second interview with a company that he’s very interested in. I’m bouncing off the walls waiting for him to tell me he’s heard back! It’d be a step up for him, and the company seems much more capable than his current/previous jobs (guys, this place has a training program for new employees, which Hubs has never had offered to him before. It sounds ridiculous to be excited about a place that actually onboards its employees, but seriously, that’s new and different, along with a lot of the questions they were asking him actually made them sound like they cared about employee success), and he’d be working 10 minutes away from where I work.

    Hard to get anything done today!

    1. Teapot librarian*

      Good luck to Hubs! (Or, to echo comments on one of yesterday’s posts, good luck to Mr. Compliance!)

  36. Michaela*

    I love my job (and my city), but I really want to get out of the U.S. Does anyone have happy-ending stories of doing so?

    1. Violaine*

      Do you have a specific country in mind? I have several friends that have done that, though mostly to Switzerland, England, and Germany, and I know there’s a decent ex-pat network out there that can likely assist with specific details. Germany seems to have some frustrating loopholes that people have to jump through (relating to having an address and getting a bank account) but somehow both friends that I know to have made that leap have somehow made it work.

      1. Tau*

        I moved back to Germany after a long time in the UK, and I have no earthly idea how foreigners ever manage. I think I’d have been stuck in a loop of “you need a registered address to open a bank account to get the credit report to rent a flat to have an address…” for all eternity if I couldn’t have temporarily registered at my parents’ place.

        (FWIW, they tightened up the laws around registration a few years back – it used to be a lot easier to just claim you were living at a friend’s place in order to have a registered address. Now you need a letter from the landlord and there’s high penalties for them if you don’t actually live there. I still suspect that some other laws/norms haven’t quite caught up.)

      2. Michaela*

        I’m most interested in the UK, where I have friends; New Zealand, where my profession is on the shortage list; and the Republic of Ireland (ditto). Canada’s an option, and I’d consider Germany.

        1. NeverNicky*

          The UK is getting very anti-immigration. Well, government is and some of the fruitloop parties and (sadly) mainstream media.
          Be prepared for it to be a long, complex and expensive process even though we are – thanks to Brexit – about to have massive vacancies in both skilled and unskilled occupations.

    2. Anonymosity*

      None but bookmarking just in case. Who knows; I might find a job with an overseas office.

    3. Nita*

      Not me, but several friends have moved to other countries. Mostly grad students, they seem to have an easier time jumping between universities here and overseas… but not only grad students. Do you have a specific country in mind? Do you know anyone over there? FWIW, a few countries have a visa program for certain professions, kind of like employment-based green cards in the U.S.

      1. Michaela*

        I’m most interested in the UK, where I have friends; New Zealand, where my profession is on the shortage list; and the Republic of Ireland (ditto). Canada’s an option, and I’d consider Germany.

    4. StellaBella*

      I have lived outside the USA since November 2008. I love living abroad – live in the UK and Switzerland. I’d say go fir it but yeah, lots to consider in terms of getting hired, papers, visas, living arrangements, etc. But yes – I am glad I did it, and now I don’t want to go back.

    5. Cristina in England*

      I’m American and moved to the UK over a decade ago. Immigration rules have changed a lot since then so I can’t help there, but some things I have learned about changing cultures are:

      -Culture shock is real, and the first two years were really hard for me, just emotionally and mentally hard. Also, learning various nuances and subtexts of wherever you land will take YEARS. This is one reason I like blunt, slightly rude people: I don’t have to guess what they mean! My polite English friends drive me up the wall because I think they’re lying to me half the time. If I were a polite English person I would probably pick up on subtle signals (like how someone says “Bless your heart” in the South) but I am not and I can’t so I don’t feel like I know what someone is REALLY saying half the time.

      -It takes a long time to be aware of and change (if needed) American habits of work. What this means for each person is different but for me it meant beginning to challenge the idea that I needed to be working as hard as I could and be going above and beyond, every time.

      -If you have a background in Customer Service or are generally peppy, tone it down. Way down. Brits/Europeans often find it incredibly grating.

      All of that was meant as a caveat not as a deterrent. I don’t ever want to move back to the US. Positives of living in the U.K.:
      -NHS, though flawed, means that medical debt leading to bankruptcy is nonexistent.
      -Paid maternity leave, and also extended maternity leave
      -High bar for news and comment, talk radio generally
      -Less aggressive, less macho, less bro-y culture
      -Less reliance on cars, more walkable cities, better public transportation

      Anyway I’m happy to answer any questions about living here. I live in England and I lived in Scotland for many years.

      1. Michaela*

        I went to school in the UK for a bit and have some close friends there, which is why it’s on my shortlist; Brexit otherwise would’ve taken it off. (I wish my French were better; I’d be able to function day-to-day but not work in my profession.) NZ and Republic of Ireland have my profession on the skills-shortage list.

    6. krysb*

      I want to do the same thing. Unfortunately, I can’t figure out how to make it happen.

    7. Jules the Third*

      US people happily in France(ish) via the UK:
      When I met Mr. Jules, his roommates were a couple, Fitz and Beth. Beth finished her journalism degree, then worked while Fitz finished his chemistry degree. The week Fitz got a job offer from Glaxo, Beth got accepted to Georgetown in DC. Glaxo does not have an office in DC. They spent 18mo long distance – Fitz was in DC most weekends.
      When Beth graduated (with honors), she got a job with a London consulting firm. Fitz got a transfer to Glaxo’s London office, and they settled down to pay off student loans and raise a couple of kids.
      They could have stopped there, but no. They bought a house in France. Not just any house, a 14BR, 18th century maison in SW France near Lourdes, with two apartments in the old orangery. It cost about as much as my average house in the US South. They are living in one apartment while having the rest renovated, using small business loans to cover the cost, which is about as much as the original purchase price. Fitz, whose French is mediocre but whose project org and handyman skills are stellar, is overseeing the renovation & raising the kids. Beth spends 2 or 3 days / week in London, another 2 working from home, continuing to consult.
      The end goal is to run a BnB. The village they’re in is *amazing*.
      Mr Jules, Little Jules and I got to spend last summer there. The village is *amazing*.
      Seven patisseries in walking distance, a huge farmer’s market, a food festival, bikable / walkable roads, multiple interesting things to do (caves, zoos, rafting, paragliding, castles) within an hour’s drive.
      Did I mention *amazing*?

      Grad school started for Beth about 15 years ago, and they’re within a year of opening the BnB.

      They did mention it’s hard to get employed in France if you’re not a citizen, though, you pretty much have to start your own business in one of the areas that’s not limited or highly regulated.

    8. Jules the Third*

      Other friend’s tentative plan: Get a job with US company with office in Spain. Use Phillipine dual citizenry to get Spanish citizenship and she’s good to go anywhere in the EU.

      I hear Canada’s nice…

      But honestly: If you have any level of privilege at all, please stay and help. I’m cis white female with an advanced degree, I’m taking the political activist route. Calling my senators 2x/week, and the white house 1x/week (their comments line closes 4pm EDT), going to join some voter registration drives, probably taking election day off to give rides to the polls.

    9. Cristina in England*

      Oh I forgot: a good friend of mine used to work for Marriott in customer service (in Asia but speaking only English).

      Also, same friend’s mother took a job as an admin in the State Dept and has done stints in the Caribbean, Africa, and now Europe. Also speaking only English and without any previous international experience (but lots of experience in the gov’t).

  37. Augusta Sugarbean*

    Those of you who work independently/not in an office/home office/remotely in some way, what are your jobs?

    My husband is retired but I’m still a ways out. I’d love to find a new career path that would allow me to work while we travel (mostly US but occasionally abroad). I have a hard science degree but it’s decades old. I have a lot of years of admin assistant experience and I currently work in EMS. I have no problem starting fresh and school/education is doable but I’d prefer not to be in school for years and years. We are okay financially so I don’t need to make a ton of money. I would more or less be working to cover health insurance. Any and all advice is appreciated.

    Thank you!

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I work independently as an English as a Second/Foreign Language teacher. Normally I do work in a home office but it’s also a job that I do travel with as all I need is a good, strong internet connection to hold my classes. Maybe something like that would be good for you?

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I haven’t done this personally, but I know some writer’s who have hired online personal assistants to handle their emailing/finance/business of being an author type things with great success. You’re years of admin assistance might be helpful for something like that. And authors aren’t the only people who might be looking for an online assistant.

    3. Mary Smith*

      Technology is a great field to go into to work remotely. Coders, user experience designers, etc.

    4. LilySparrow*

      I’m a freelance writer. If you have a background in science or medical (EMS – emergency medical?), you can specialize in writing or editing for those type of specialty blogs or publications, which pay better than average. If you don’t mind doing some classes, technical writing pays well and has a lot of growth potential. There are a lot of FT and contract positions being advertised all the time, and many of them are remote.

      I tried home transcription at first, but I hated it. Some people make decent money, but I wasn’t quick enough for it to be worth my while.

    5. Gumby*

      Medical transcriptionist? The person who codes all of the doctor visit stuff for insurance purposes (medical coder)?

      Those were the first two vaguely medical, work from home ideas I could come up with.

  38. DaniCalifornia*

    1. Anyone dealt with interviews and potential jobs asking about future plans when you are in one career but studying to enter another field? I’ve been in professional high level admin positions for over a decade. I’m studying design and will finish in 2-3 years. I want a job in design when I graduate. But I also am job hunting now. Current Job is not a good place with no room to learn or advance. I seem to get more interviews because I have my current degree/grad date listed. But it’s obvious I am not studying business or HR or admin stuff. When interviewers ask the ‘See yourself in X years’ question do I lie? Be honest? Some vague middle answer that I’ve not thought of? I understand they’d prefer someone who will stay at their company for awhile but my plan is hopefully I’ll get a job in design once I graduate. And despite trying to trick myself, I can’t stay at Current Job for 2-3 more years. I hate tax season and don’t think I’ll last through another one.

    2. My resume shows my past decades worth of admin roles in chronological order. But lists my graduation date of 2-3 years out for my current degree program. I’m wondering if that’s the best way to do that? I think some people realize that I am switching careers and am probably not 22. But I’ve come across some interviewers who were surprised at my age/experience when I say I have 12 years of admin experience. I know sometimes people don’t notice details but I want to make it clear that I’m not a recent grad with no experience. I do have years listed on my resume so they can see I’ve been in an office since 2006.

  39. Rehab Blues*

    I posted in the open thread recently about being afraid to talk to my boss about needing time off – when the time off was for rehab – for sex addiction. I wanted to report back with good news – it looks like I won’t have to! I did attend a couple 12-step meetings as suggested by other commenters (THANK YOU!) and realized…I actually could not relate to the addiction (as defined in the 12-step program) AT ALL. Confused, I decided to see a second opinion from a different therapist, who pronounced that the issue was largely with my conservative family (I come from one of those families where things like reading romance novels or watching R-rated movies are considered “sex addiction” – let alone any sexual behavior whatsoever that involves someone other than a legally married opposite-sex spouse) and my struggles with conforming to their expectations. (I had sought therapy/treatment at the request of my family, and had been working with a therapist they found for me who held the same traditional values.) So now I am going to continue with therapy to learn how to redefine boundaries with my family and be more of my own person (even if that means dealing with harsh judgments) but can step aside from “addiction” treatment – and especially planning for inpatient rehab! I did tell my boss I was going to need to start going to a “weekly medical appointment” for treatment of a “pesky by not life-threatening issue,” and he said absolutely no problem and to just let him know what scheduling adjustments I would need to make. Again, I so appreciate everyone’s kindness and support here – even if I didn’t end up needing the suggestions for requesting extended time off, the spirit of the suggestions was very helpful in gearing up to talk to my boss about my weekly appointment. Thanks again!

    1. Ignatius Reilly*

      What a great update! So glad to hear you’re moving forward and things are going well.

    2. Apari*

      I’m glad to hear you don’t have to go to rehab! All the best for your efforts to navigate your family’s expectations, set some helpful boundaries and make your own choices.

    4. Det. Charles Boyle*

      Wow! That’s great news. May I ask what religion it is?
      I hope all goes well for you.

      1. Rehab Blues*

        Without getting into too many specifics, it’s the sort of religion that promotes a “purity culture” (and one where women are judged very harshly for their behavior, while men typically get a pass). As an adult, I don’t maintain these beliefs anymore, but had been hoping to stay close with my family (which, to this point, has required submitting to their judgments). I am hoping therapy can help me navigate a way to stand up for myself while still expressing that I love my relatives and respect their right to their beliefs (I just don’t want to put up with their shaming me for living my life in a different way).

        Anyway, I am so incredibly relieved that I don’t need to take a month or more off from work for such a delicate personal matter!

        2. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

          You might find podcasts such as Exvangelical or The Life After of interest. Most of the people who appear on them have left fundamentalist Christian faith (to varying degrees) but their stories are fascinating to me, even though I was never part of that religion, and the guests often have useful resources for people who struggle with adjusting to life outside that environment.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      This is a wonderful update and I wish you all the best in your efforts to set boundaries and work through the years of damage your family has caused.

    7. Nita*

      Oh, my. That… is addiction? Like, reading Danielle Steel? I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with this kind of ridiculous expectations, glad you’ve figured out you’re actually fine, and are getting therapy to deal with your family.

      1. Rehab Blues*

        Yes, Nita, exactly! It doesn’t even have to be “erotica,” even PG-rated stuff is considered bad, because you might get swept up in a unrealistic fantasy instead of being happy with your husband (current or eventual). There is actually a test that screens for this sort of addiction and includes the romance novel question, as well as questions about if you’ve ever felt guilty about your behavior (“behavior” doesn’t even have to be anything overt, it could be having a silly private celebrity crush!) or if other people have other been upset or disappointed by your behavior (which would include someone’s family being unhappy about her not toeing the “purity” line). Those questions are given equal weight to the ones about unsafe/illegal activities, inflicting nonconsensual behavior on others, etc. Anyway – my new therapist explained that the test isn’t very good for people who come from conservative families because there are going to be a lot of false positives where what most physicians and mental health professionals consider normal/healthy behavior is pathologized. So – lots of tough baggage to unpack for me, but at least I don’t have to interrupt my life and job to work on it.

    8. Thursday Next*

      This is a fantastic update! I’m so glad you found a different therapist. It will be an important step in recalibrating your expectations away from your family’s conservative ones.

    9. Jules the Third*

      This is awesome. Good luck navigating all this. You should also check out Captain Awkward, there’s a lot of ‘how to set and keep boundaries’ advice and scripts there.
      Mostly boils down to: make it boring for them. Don’t share details. Don’t get trapped – knowing you can leave (and giving yourself freedom to do so!) helps you stay calm.

    10. Kuododi*

      Mazel Tov!!!! I have been thinking about you and am delighted to hear such a positive update!!! Actually, the additional information you provided really fills in some gaps for me regarding what you have been dealing with. Best wishes to you in your journey…if I can be any help with resources/referrals feel free to contact Alison and ask her to pass on a message to me. I will be delighted to help in whatever small way possible. Grace and peace to you.

    11. Good, Cheap, or Soon. Pick Two.*

      Go you! It is awesome that you’re taking a stand and advocating for your mental health and healthy boundaries. Bonus points to boss-type person for being supportive. I hope you’re able to manage contact with your family while keeping religion in check, it sounds like that is going to be one complicated dance.

      That being said, please talk to your therapist about possibly reporting your former therapist. Referring a non-addict to inpatient rehab simply because his religious beliefs might be something your state licensing board needs to hear about. Rehabs don’t have the strongest regulations and they can do things like put you on medication and refer you for treatments such as ECT. He was willing to put you in a potentially dangerous situation simply because his views of sex differed from yours; that’s not okay.

  40. Katherine*

    Anyone else hoping for an update from the letter writer who was written up because a colleague spotted menstrual products in her car??

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Oh boy, yes!

      I’d also love, love, love an update from the letter writer whose office was going way too far in accommodating a colleague with (I think) OCD – such as banning particular patterns, making them line up male-female at the bus stop. I think about that letter a lot.

      1. Jules the Third*

        whaaaaat? I missed that one.
        I have OCD and that’s just wrong, in every way. It’s actually *bad therapy*, reinforcing the compulsions.

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      Yes, AND “Did my intern frame my coworker for credit card theft?” I am dying to know how that all shook out.

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      I’d like to see an update from the LW whose coworker was caught getting busy with himself in the office. That one just gobsmacked me.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m curious about the letter writer whose company wanted to go car-free and got angry when he wouldn’t give up his accessible van.

    5. Marie B.*

      I am! I would also love one from the letter writer whose employee quit because he said their new boss was horrible and he refused to work for her again. The other upper management said there was nothing to worry about but the letter writer and their colleagues were worried. I always think about that letter.

      1. ECHM*

        I would like to see an update to that one too, as well as one for the office who was collecting money for a co-worker and the person who had the money died unexpectedly.

  41. Fenchurch*

    People who have made a huge career change, what made you finally decide to pull the trigger? How did you pick your new industry? How did you approach applying to jobs?

    I’m interested in exploring other careers since I kind of fell backwards into my current role and realized I kind of hate it. Any pro-tips or pointers are welcome!

    1. T3k*

      Well, wasn’t a complete 180 change, but basically since the time of high school I had my sights set on graphic design. Then, near the end of college, I belatedly learned people actually have jobs creating games (my true passion). I felt it was too late to change majors though so I graduated and held various jobs related to print and graphic design, all the while trying to use that as my angle into the gaming industry, but that wasn’t working. So, I started to just look at all the different entry level jobs at a local company and came across one that, while I had no formal skills in, it matched with a lot of my own natural skills (organized, keeping everyone on track, etc.) I emphasized this in a cover letter and a month later I had the job. So really, mine was looking at what I just loved to do in my life and try to create a career out of it.

    2. Climber*

      I am in the process for making a huge career change. I have been teaching in academia for more than a decade and I am so burned out. The working full time, at several campuses, getting part time pay, no benefits, getting no respect from full timers, the constant attack on unions and defunding of education. . . I needed to get out. I am moving into Speech Pathology, it was something I was always interested (I grew up with a stutter) but was too scared to pursue when I was younger. I don’t think I could have done a SLP program as a college student, I would have been too timid and didn’t think I could handle the science. I am much more confident now and so far I am loving it.
      So I have a lot of schooling before I make the official leap but I have lots of skills from teaching that apply to this field: organized, independent worker, extremely flexible, able to work with diverse populations, ability to explain complex concepts to lay people, working with the public, used to meeting firm deadlines. Look at what you already do and how that can relate to what you want to do. Also, I interviewed and shadowed a working SLP to at least see the field in action. Made me super excited about the possibilities.
      This can be really exciting and scary! Good luck!

  42. Nope*

    Going a little bananas here. I had a great interview last Wednesday, they requested my references and employment history form (with HR contact info) on Thursday pm. I got them everything by noon last Friday. I know they spoke to at least one of my references on Monday.

    They were clear that they were planning to make a final decision after checking the references of the final candidate(s) — in other words, it probably wasn’t just me.

    I had a separate email thread going with the hiring manager for my thank you and some questions, and that thread lasted from Thursday-Monday.

    When do I follow up? I’m trying not to spend every minute thinking about this and freaking out every time I get a call or email.

    1. Not Maeby But Surely*

      Given that checking references on multiple candidates isn’t going to be an instantaneous process, I would wait a least a week. Since your last communication was on a Monday, I’d probably wait to check in until the Wednesday of the next week, or 9 days out from that correspondence. Any sooner and I think it could come off as pushy rather than eager.

  43. Kate*

    Total softball questions about nicknames and LinkedIn. I use my nickname “Kate” pretty much exclusively with colleagues, friends, and family when I can get them to behave, but my resume has my full name because that just seemed more professional I guess. And my LinkedIn has my full name to match my resume, but then I had a friend contact me through LinkedIn a few weeks ago and started with , “Dear [full name]” which threw me off because she’s known me as “Kate” for 5 years. But I wondered if not including my nickname in my LinkedIn makes it confusing for people who might think I use my full name professionally. Yes, I know I’m 100% over-thinking this, but I’m wondering how other people handle their nicknames on the professional paper trail (i.e. resumes, LinkedIn, publications, etc.)

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I would use Katherine (Kate) Lastname, if you’re going to use a different name professionally than the one people know you by. If I had to pick one, I’d use Kate, not Katherine. (Of course, I’m thinking your name is really Kate. I might feel differently if your name was Melissa (Moe) Lastname.)

    2. Kate*

      I am also a Kate(lyn) and switched everything over to Kate a few years ago when I began to publish professionally in my field. Every once in a while someone will find out I’m using a nickname and be slightly surprised (oh wow, I didn’t know your name was short for Katelyn!), but overall it has been completely fine.

    3. Kate*

      Thanks for the responses! My full name is Kathleen, which I feel like it pretty similar to Kate, so I didn’t realize people would have so much trouble with it. I even had a colleague ask another colleague who Kathleen [last name] was because apparently he couldn’t put it together. I’ve already published as Kathleen, which is why I want to keep it on my resume. I added Kate in quotes on my LinkedIn after the message from my friend, so I’ll probably just stick with that or the parentheses idea. Thanks for your thoughts :)

      1. self employed*

        To me, Kate is a nickname for Katherine, so I can see the confusion. Definitely agree with putting Kate everywhere.

  44. JustaTech*

    TL;DR: Is it OK to ask the hiring manager what a job posting means by “temporary”?

    Long version: I’ve seen a job posted with a city department I’m very interested in, but the job is described as full-time temporary. What’s weird is usually temporary jobs in this department are “term limited temporary” as in their are part of a grant and will say Dates X-Y. Since this posting doesn’t, and unusually actually has a human’s email attached, is it OK to email the hiring manager and ask “how temporary?” since I don’t want to apply if it’s less than a year?

    Is this a legit question for the hiring manager?

    2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Yes, definitely ask so that you are clear on the duration of the job. It sounds like it’s a “9-5, 5-days a week” position but for a temporary duration–maybe a few months or even a year or so. But ask just to be sure.

    3. LilySparrow*

      Yes, that’s a normal thing. But in terms of wording it’s probably better to ask “what’s the timeframe” or “how do you expect the contract to run?”

  45. Bibliovore*

    Took the day off having worked 10 days in a row. Conference. Anxiety rising with the mental to do list. Advice for leaving work at work please .

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Don’t just sit at home! Get out and do things – do the grocery shopping, run errands, take the car to the car wash, go to the cinema, if you’re up for it, give your house a clean. I’ve always felt more distant from work if I fill my days with lots of things.

      1. Bibliovore*

        This. A friend wanted to go to COSTCO so we had quite an outing! And ran into a mutual friend and had a brat and chat. Got home around 3 and was going to do just a little work. Just a little. The Internet was out. The gods said a day off and a day off it was. Read the thread and watched Gilmore Girls. Made a steak salad for dinner then a busman’s holiday evening at an Antiquarian Book Festival at the Fairgrounds.
        Tomorrow is errands, laundry, and Improv Theater in the evening. I CAN DO THIS!

    2. all charitied out*

      First of all, make it so your are uncontactable, inform your boss and coworkers they are not to send constant requests during your vacation / day off.
      Secondly, go to something that is loud and fun and would take your mind off work – a movie, a walk in the park, even amusement parks.
      I also recommend video games too

    3. Anxiety Anon*

      I have separate planners/systems for work and home. So I’m not opening up my home to-do list and family calendar to see work stuff, ever. Ditto email. I don’t have work email set up on my phone at all, so I have to go through several steps to log in to check it and no notifications come in.
      At the end of my work day, I often take 5-10 minutes to organize my desk, lay out the next things I will need when I come in, and update my work to-dos and calendar for the next few days. I star or flag the most urgent things or things that have to be done when I first walk in next time. This way, I can relax about the mental list because it’s organized and I won’t have to spend time figuring out what to do when I come in, I can just look at my notes and get started.

    4. Soft Gray*

      An important phrase I learned in therapy was “that’s a tomorrow problem.” I tend to dwell on upcoming anxiety-provoking situations, so this helps me step back and give myself a break from nagging worry. The litmus test is basically, can I actually do anything right now to solve this problem? No? Then it’s a problem for tomorrow. If I’m nervous about an upcoming presentation, beyond preparing my materials, there’s nothing I can do at 10pm the night before. It’s a tomorrow at work problem.

      Worrying about work or making plans/preparing for work are work activities. They don’t pay you for the time you spend at home anxious. Do work activities at work. I suppose the implicit modification I use is “that’s an at work problem.”

      I hope you can relax some. Working 10 days in a row is rough. Maybe some indulgent self care is also in order.

    5. Mary Smith*

      I write a list, titled “Things to do when I get back” and do those things before I even check my email (well, I scan my email to make sure there’s nothing pertaining to those, then get out of it and do my list). It really helps me leave it until I get back.

    6. Jane of all Trades*

      I have noticed that a strenuous workout that requires all my concentration helps me reset my brain when I want to relax (sometimes yoga has the same effect). Basically anything where I have to 100% focus on the sport, so my brain has to stop doing the running to-do list. Maybe that will help you too? Good luck, you deserve a day off – 10 days without a break is a lot!

  46. Ignatius Reilly*

    In honor of Friday, I’m interested in people’s thoughts about . . . casual Friday.

    Where I work technically allows casual Friday. My direct boss, however, hates it. I never dress casually on Friday because 1) I figure there’s no use in pissing off my direct boss, and 2) frankly I don’t own very many “casual” clothes that would be work appropriate (my go-tos are jeans with rips, band t-shirts, etc.)

    So this isn’t really an issue, but I’m just curious what other people would do. In the above situation, would you rock casual Friday, figuring it’s allowed and your boss can deal, or would you eschew casual Friday for your typical weekly garb, figuring it’s not worth any potential negative feeling from your boss?

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I hated casual Friday because I figure that if it’s fine to be casual in the office one day a week, it’s fine to be casual the rest of the week. It’s one of those wishy-washy benefits that reminds me of own clothes day at school (I went to a uniformed school).

    2. Murphy*

      It would depend on how vocal my boss was about hating it. If it really bothered him and/or didn’t bother me to keep dressing at usual then I’d probably forgo the casual wear.

      And to me, my “work casual” isn’t the same as my “casual casual”. I often wear the same thing I would on other days just with jeans.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Same. The company as a whole morphed from casual Fridays to casual most of the time, but I’d say the majority of people in my office still went with business casual all week, while our managers wore business attire. Anyone meetings with customers stepped it up too (you knew who was meetings customers by the ties). Anyway, given that the management never dressed down even on Fridays, I never did the casual-casual like people in other offices (cargo shorts and maxi sun dresses and leggings as pants). I did wear dressy-ish dark wash non-skinny jeans a few times a week but always with business casual tops and not t-shirts.

    3. Ciaraamberlie*

      It would depend heavily on how I perceived my place in the wider organisation. If I knew I was a respected, high performer (and that people higher up the food chain knew that and liked me a lot) then I’d do casual Friday regardless.

      But otherwise, I’d eschew it, because I don’t think it’d be worth pissing off the person who decides what raise I get.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      Interesting question & one that may be relevant to me soon. I have a new department manager. He was previously head of another dept., and started wearing sport coats when he took that role, and then instituted having all his direct report managers wear them. We are business casual with casual Fridays. I am not working out of my home office right now, so I’ll have to see how he has influenced the department when I’m back there for the holiday next week. I’d probably level up to my boss, because I’m weirdly competitive like that, and kind of a generally bad dresser who needs to step it up.

    5. Fiennes*

      Assuming my boss was generally reasonable, I would probably strike a balance—ease up a bit from the everyday, while still not going full-casual. If my boss and/or her feelings about Casual Friday weren’t reasonable, I’d do exactly what you’re doing now.

    6. MoonMagic*

      I guess my question would be, what exactly does your boss “hate” about it? For me, personally, I wear basic jeans (no rips, holes, crazy glitter, etc.) and whatever I would normally wear on non-casual days: a solid color fitted tee with a cardigan or a blouse and semi-dressy sandals or boots. Some of my coworkers wear ripped jeans with a graphic tee and $2 Old Navy flip-flops. I judge them in my mind as being “way too casual for work,” but it’s not my place to police how “causal” my coworkers get to be.

      I’ve heard in the past that the best way to “fit in” with dress-code norms is to dress to similar to how your boss or your boss’ boss dresses. If your boss isn’t down with “beach causal” at work, then maybe skip the flip-flops and sneakers and stick to a more “dressy casual” look.

    7. Accidental Analyst*

      Years ago I worked for a place that did casual Friday. My boss was a big wig and didn’t like it. They told me that I was no longer allowed to do casual Friday. Admittedly I had been too casual but there were other direct reports at a similar level that were allowed to do casual Friday. This lasted a couple of years until the boss had done a number of casual Fridays. I started again but made sure I was not as casual as I had been

    9. Ignatius Reilly*

      Thanks for all the replies! I’m not sure what my boss specifically hates about it, tbh. He’s an attorney and pretty old school, so my impression is simply that he doesn’t think jeans are appropriate for an office full-stop, no matter how dark wash or un-bedazzled or what have you.

      I’m actually similar to Foreign Octopus (great name, btw) in that Casual Fridays were never a benefit that I cared about much. I don’t care what other people do, but it’s always felt a little pandering to me and I just don’t have the energy to care one way or the other. It’s a good point that a lot of how you respond has to do with your own professional cache, though. If you’re generally seen as a slacker, even the nicest jeans might end up being the thing that just reinforces to your boss that you’re a slacker (as unfair as that might be).

    10. Overeducated*

      My office has slightly-more-casual-Fridays. I wear my regular work clothes, since my weekend casual clothes are too casual, but more comfortable shoes (e.g. sandals in the summer).

  47. Dr. Doll*

    Can we talk about us vs them a little? This week in some comment thread, Alison brought up the issue that managers must be united, it can’t be “our department vs The Man.”

    I’m in academia, where us v them is practically a religious dogma. It creates an unfortunate atmosphere of distrust and hostility. But indeed, the interests and loyalties of management and faculty are often rather different.

    I suppose my question is, when you move from worker to management, as often happens in academia, how do you navigate the change so as to minimize damage?

    2. JS#2*

      I’m in academia and I have a co-worker who just made the move from worker to management. I think they’ve done reasonably well with the transition because their attitude has always been to largely give folks the benefit of the doubt and to be practical about what we have to work with. “Yes, this distrust exists between Department A and Department B–we can’t really fix that. So how do we (from a process or project point-of-view) help them work together on Project A so we can reach our goal (with minimal drama)?”

  48. Drug Testing*

    What are your thoughts on cheating drug screens in cases where recreational marijuana is legal in one’s state and the job doesn’t require operating heavy machinery or other hazards?

    I live in a state where recreational marijuana is legal but some employers in my field (practice profession) still test for it in routine drug screens. I am a frequent user but I never, ever use before work or driving or anything with a risk of endangering others or coming across as unprofessional. I use cannabis similarly to how other’s in my social and professional circles use alcohol; they have a glass of wine to unwind in the evening, I partake in cannabis to unwind a few times a week. The only problem is that tests for cannabis don’t measure impairment, just that one has used cannabis up to six weeks before the testing date.

    I’m just avoiding any and all jobs that would require pre-hire drug testing as I see it as invasive and possibly indicative of a culture mismatch, but after thinking about it, I wouldn’t judge someone who I knew to only partake in cannabis (not harder drugs) for getting around a drug screen or view them as unethical solely from that one act. What do you think?

      1. Drug Testing*

        Even if the thing they are testing for is legal for adults to consume in their off-work hours? And when the test doesn’t measure level of impairment, only evidence of prior use?

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          Yes. Legality isn’t the same as allowed by an employer’s policy. And if it’s this employer’s policy not to allow it, then cheating or lying to get around the policy is unethical. And firable if they find out. I’d just accept that if an employer looked for cannabis on their drug screening, then it’s not a good match and move on. You can probably ask if cannabis is on the list of drugs they’re looking for, since it’s legal in the state, but if they say yes, I’d move on, not try to fool the test.

          1. self employed*

            Yes. Frankly, the cheating shows an integrity issue that would be a non-starter for me. I would rather someone ask about it upfront like you have here, rather than lie and cheat. It’s within an employer’s right to not want recreational drug users on staff; you may or may not be able to make a case about it in person, but do not scam a test.

          2. Drug Testing*

            I’m not asking for myself, nor am I applying to any jobs that require drug testing. I’m not interested in having to deal with getting around a test and I don’t want to work for a place that doesn’t them without an actual business need or employee performance issue that needs to be investigated. But I wanted to get a sense for if people think that testing for marijuana in states where it is legal is different than testing for methamphetamines or heroin, and therefore whether cheating a test to not disclose a legal activity with virtually no potential for addiction/crime associated with addiction is less unethical than cheating a test to not disclose illegal drug use with addiction potential.

            1. Another Lauren*

              I think it depends on the company. We recently adjusted our drug screening policy (don’t get me started–I hate that we have one at all, but I’m not high up enough to change it!) Anyway, it used to be based on federal standards, but since cannabis was decriminalized in our state, we no longer screen for it.

          3. Annie Moose*

            I think this is a valuable point. I might disagree with an employer performing drug tests for state-legal marijuana in many cases… but if this is an employer’s policy, that’s their policy. Lying and deceiving your employer is not a good way to start your relationship.

            Someone applying to this company knows this is a condition of employment. If they are not willing or able to meet that condition of employment, then they need to find something else. It’s like misrepresenting your skills or cheating on a test of skill/ability–it’s not ethical, and even if you’re desperate, it’s a really, really bad idea.

    2. LCL*

      From what I have read, there is a lot of talk of cheating drug screens but it is rarely successfully done. I agree with you about marijuana use. For a while I would use companies’ suggested comment route to tell them why they shouldn’t drug screen all applicants, if they had a sign posted in the store that they tested. I doubt I had any effect on any company’s drug policy.

    3. Sylvan*

      I wouldn’t want to get caught trying to cheat the test. Are these screens part of the hiring process, with no tests coming after them, or are employees regularly screened?

      1. Drug Testing*

        They appear to be a one-time test as part of the hiring process, likely so the employer can get a better deal on health insurance provided to workers.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          If that’s the case, why not just abstain until after the test is over? That solves the problem without being unethical.

          1. Drug Testing*

            I’m not applying to any of those jobs. Please read my first comment. I will not apply at any place that requires drug tests without a business need or employee performance issue that requires investigation. But I wanted to get a sense of if trying to avoid disclosing legal activity with virtually no potential for addiction/crime connected to addiction is the same as trying to avoid disclosing illegal drug use with addiction potential such as heroin or methamphetamines.

            1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

              Isn’t it still illegal on a federal level? (Legit question…. I haven’t paid too close attention to the issue) That being said, I thought there was a court case that upheld an employers right to drug test and terminate employment even if it’s a state legalized drug (but as I said I don’t really follow this issue, so I could be wrong) The reason I ask is in your posts you seem to be very stuck on the legality of use vs. the company policy.

              Let me see if I can come up with an example… We can all agree that it is legal for a person to wear flip flops, high cut shorts, and a tank top; man or woman. Many companies have specific policies against wearing these items in the workplace, sometimes it’s for safety reasons and sometimes it’s for other reasons such as image or professionalism.

              Do you think that a person showing up in those items of clothing is going to have much luck with the “It’s legal to wear this outfit” argument? Why do you consider a drug policy any different than a dress policy?

              1. Mike C.*

                That example doesn’t make much sense when you have someone using medical marijuana outside the workplace.

                1. En vivo*

                  But when you have that medical marijuana still in your system (while at work), it could, no? Unless there’s an accommodation.

                2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

                  Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see any mention of using for medicinal use the OP was referencing recreational use.

                  That being said, I don’t think it changes the equation. My doctor can prescribe me opioids legally but that doesn’t mean that my company is ok with me driving the forklift on them, they have discretion over the policies that they enact as long as they aren’t discriminatory and are legal.

            2. En vivo*

              Drug Testing,

              I get that you’re not thinking of applying to one of those companies. To answer your question, yes, it’s the same. Because trying to cover up use of a legal drug (that a company doesn’t want you to use) is the same as trying to cover up use of an illegal drug (that a company doesn’t want you to use). It’s more about what the company is looking for in this case; it doesn’t matter if the drug is legal or not. In both cases, the drug user would be lying to the company.

    5. DARE to think for yourself*

      For me, the main issue is with how marijuana “use” is tested. As you said previously, it doesn’t measure current “level of impairment, only evidence of prior use,” and that “prior use” could have been 1 time 3 weeks ago. Whereas something like alcohol will only show on a drug test if you’re actually drunk in that moment or possibly just getting over a hangover. Even harder drugs like coke or heroin only take a few days to leave your system (from what I remember reading).

      It’s also tricky in states where it’s legal because it’s still illegal federally. There has been a lot of speculation over whether or not state law should override federal law, and I don’t think it’s really been answered other than if there is a chance it’s illegal based on either law, you could be held accountable for your “illegal” drug use. Also, some companies are multi-state or national, so it would (usually) have a company-wide policy based on federal policies, not state laws.

      And I personally think it’s not such a bad thing to try to beat the system on a one-time pre-employment drug test if the only concern is testing positive for marijuana. That being said, if you get caught the test will be considered a “fail” and the employer will probably think you’re generally a dishonest person, so it’s really not a good idea. I understand the principle of it though – casual marijuana use is not the same as “casual” heroin use.

    7. Nacho*

      I would consider it pretty low on the scale of unethical behavior, like pirating a movie or reading personal emails at work.

    8. Girl friday*

      Most people believe they have the right to gainful employment wherever they want to work and also the right to do whatever they want in their free time to varying results. I think it’s an individual dilemma and no one can tell you how to manage it. Most people do run up against a law or social more eventually. The ones that don’t simply want to do only acceptable things. It’s mostly a life of ‘accept it, change it, or leave it’, and I admire you for trying to navigate it. The fourth option is ‘risk it,’ and that is again an individual choice.

    9. Schnoodle*

      I get your logic but let’s give it another spin.

      All the jobs you look at “require” a BA. You only have an AA. You think it’s dumb because you can easily do these jobs without a BA. (And you are probably right!) But that’s what they require.

      Would you “fake” a BA to get in?

      1. Thlayli*

        I think this is a great analogy. Just because you disagree with an employers requirement doesn’t mean it’s ok to lie to them and say you have a requirement you don’t actually have. They have the right to choose to only hire drug free employees, just as much as they have the right to choose to only hire degree-educated employees. Lying about being drug-free is just as bad as lying about being degree-educated. It’s irrelevant whether the drug is legal or not.

    10. LilySparrow*

      It’s the same as lying on your resume. Which isn’t illegal anywhere, by the way.

      It’s deceiving an employer about whether or not you meet their requirements for the job. The employer is entitled to set whatever job requirements they want. If you don’t want to comply with their policies, don’t work there.

      But don’t lie about it.

    11. nonegiven*

      We’re near a tipping point where it’s legal in more states than illegal. Maybe it’s time to look at federal legalization. That probably won’t change a lot of companies drug testing policy, though.

    12. n’t recommend cheating*

      I think trying to cheat the drug test would be both unethical and likely to fail. However, all the marijuana users I have ever known simply refrain from consuming it for a few weeks while job searching, and then go back to their usual pattern once they are employed again. I don’t think this is “cheating” the test. I think it shows that they are not addicted, don’t have a pattern of overuse, and can clearly refrain from letting their recreational use affect their work performance. I only wish there was a test for consistent overuse of alcohol. To judge by stories on this site, alcohol does much more damage to productivity and employee relations. Give me stoners over so-called functional alcoholics any day!

  49. Phoenix Programmer*

    Ugh. Just stared off my reporting relationship with a new boss (thankfully I have a great relationship with my new bosses boss) by having to escalate a legal compliance issue to her boss that she handled wrong. She punished me for reporting and should not have and her boss is going to correct today. Any suggestions to cover myself?

    1. Goya de la Mancha*

      Document, document, document. In the end there may be nothing you can do, but at least you’ll have back -up to show you handled yourself as you legally should.

    2. misspiggy*

      Sorry to hear that. Be very bland, calm and scrupulously polite, and act as if everyone is capable of getting over this quickly and behaving like civilised humans.

  50. Worf's Sister's Cousin*

    I work in higher ed and will be getting a pension upon retirement as I am already vested. I recently got a promotion that I am not enjoying and really wish I could go back to being an assistant instead of a department head. I am thinking about sticking this promotion out to maximize my pension formula and then leaving for a much less stressful job in 2-3 years.

    I love where I work, just not the job. I don’t really have any way to move back down the ladder. I don’t have any lateral moves I can make, and I can’t (don’t want, either!) move any higher up the ladder. I guess I just needed to get that off my chest.

    I need to figure out how best to interview in 3 years from now to explain why I want some lower level job – something without supervisory duties, somewhere that I don’t have to set departmental goals and expectations, somewhere I can just be a worker bee and go home. Oh that sounds so nice just to type it out.

    2. all charitied out*

      Oh I know how exactly you feel OP. I have outside of work interests and would really prefer it if my job didn’t take up too much of my life! But everybody seems mystified when you are looking for a career progression isn’t going up and up and up.

    3. Ciaraamberlie*

      I think you can sell it as a lifestyle change. Plenty of people shift jobs to ones with better hours / less stress for work-life balance. Most employers won’t baulk at that. In fact, some actually like it, because if there isn’t a lot of upward mobility in the job, there can be a risk that someone who IS looking to move up will only stick it out for a couple of years before moving on. Being able to say “I want this job and will still want it in five years time” may be a really good thing.

      1. Tara S.*

        This is a good angle. If you have already been there long enough to reach pension level, you probably have lots of experience that other departments would love to have. As long as you are ok with a lower salary than your current Director job, I think explaining that you want a slightly more relaxed/less stressful/less high-pressure job is understandable, and departments will be happy about your past experience within the University.

      2. Gloucesterina*

        Worf’s SC – I agree with Tara above that going down the ladder might be easier than you think in an academic setting. I’m doing a bit of work on the side for a unit that is running a search for an fulltime assistant, and I’m seeing that it can be challenging to find good candidates who have both the adminstrative skillset and the institutional knowledge that comes with your body of experience.

        I also wonder if you might be feeling like you must be ‘grateful’ for your promotion, and that asking to downshift might code as ‘ungrateful.’ If that happens to be a concern for you, I don’t think you should worry about it at all – your institution is clearly grateful for you and your work, and I’d imagine they’d be happy to make changes if that means retaining your experience and knowledge.

    4. Schnoodle*

      I plan on “retiring” early around 45. By that, I mean, I’m going to leave my career behind and work part time at Trader Joe’s.

      So just frame it that way. You’re looking for a lower stress position that is still a fit for your skill and interest, and understand the pay cut that comes with it.

      I’m in HR and I would find that answer perfectly fine.

  51. Meredith Brooks*

    I get along with my boss, but we are not buddies and as noted last week, she’s kinda becoming my BEC. Case in point, we were having a conversation about something I’m working on. She didn’t like my phrasing of a paragraph. I told her “I hear you” and explained why I phrased it the way I had. She then gave me a more detailed explanation about why she didn’t like my phrasing and concluded it by telling me she was overthinking it, “but please indulge me.” I wasn’t arguing with her or disagreeing. I was literally just explaining why I had phrased something a certain way, so that she would understand and we could (if need be) have a better conversation about it. And yet, instead it turned into some kind of pissing context where she had to tell me why what I wrote was wrong and that I should indulge her? She’s my boss. Don’t ask me to indulge you. That’s what condescending $#@$#@%$^$%#s say when they’re trying not to be condescending $#@$!$%$^%$#@s.

    1. super stressed*

      this doesn’t seem like an egregious situation? It sounds like your goal was met – she explained herself, and you had a more detailed conversation about the paragraph. Although you weren’t disagreeing with her, I don’t think it’s crazy to interpret your explanation as being disagreement…and “please indulge me” is her acknowledgment that she may be ultimately in the wrong, but also her exercising authority as a manager. It’s just a phrase.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        This is where I land. “Please indulge me on this one” is probably what I would say in such a situation. I’d rather hear, “please indulge me,” than, “I’m the boss, so what I say goes.” She’s acknowledging your right to an opinion and your standing in the situation (you’re the one who will ultimately do the work) while gently insisting on using her method.

    2. Det. Charles Boyle*

      I know this isn’t fun to hear, but part of working under a boss is having to do what the boss wants. I think your boss was trying to be “nice” during the initial conversation, and she should have probably just said, “Please do it my way” so you’d understand she didn’t want to have a conversation about it.
      I try to look at it as one of the duties of my job: doing what the boss asks even when it seems unreasonable. It’s not very pleasant sometimes, but it’s just part of working life.

    3. Blue Eagle*

      Have to agree with the 2 above commenters. When the boss says “please indulge me” she means “I am the boss and you need to do it my way because I am ultimately responsible for your work” but IMO is saying it nicer than that. As a boss, it was somewhat frustrating when staff explained and explained again why they did something when I wanted it done a different way. It doesn’t matter why you think your way is better, if I am the boss and am ultimately responsible to my boss for your work, I would like it done my way.

    4. Meredith Brooks*

      I may have explained this poorly. I really was not arguing or disagreeing with her. I’m well known for not arguing or disagreeing with people. She suggested alternate phrasing, which wasn’t accurate — so I explained why I had written it the way I had and that I understood where she was coming from. The fact that she doubled down on what was wrong with my phrasing, was kind of beating a dead horse. She didn’t have to ask me to oblige her, she knows full well after working with me for a year that I don’t pitch fits or create drama. She’s edited my stuff in the past without any issue from me, so it doesn’t really make sense that in this instance she would feel the need to assert more authority or make me do something. I think she over-dramatized the issue and ended up patronizing me in the process for reasons unknown.

      1. Girl friday*

        I think some people don’t verb well. She evidently did not include the verb ‘change,’ ‘correct’ or ‘fix’? And you did not say, “What would you have me do instead?” So instead of it being a simple q&a, where you would feel validated in your work, the conversation decompensated. You were expecting validation, and she wanted action.

        1. Meredith Brooks*

          I’m not sure how else to explain it, but I wasn’t expecting validation or praise. I wasn’t upset with the critique of my phrasing. To paraphrase the situation, it went something like this:

          I wrote: The flowers weren’t red or blue
          She wanted to say: The flowers are yellow and green.
          I explained the client wanted to emphasize the flowers weren’t red or blue.
          She said – I don’t like the phrasing, here are all the reasons why, please oblige me.

          1. Girl friday*

            People don’t always explain themselves well. Maybe she needed to be very literal? Were the flowers yellow and green, btw? Sounds like advertising, so maybe red and blue are trademarked closely-associated features of a competitor or something.

            1. Meredith Brooks*

              The flowers actually weren’t yellow and green – though it’s not unreasonable that she would think so. I told her this as well. But, the issue I have again isn’t because of what we were discussing or what she wanted changed or the fact that she wanted to change it. It was the fact that in offering an explanation (and not a very strident one at that), I was suddenly someone who needed to be “managed”.

              1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

                I say this recognizing the signs in myself, I think this is a classic BEC scenario. I’m not sure if I am understanding the full exchange, so that being said I’ll go in a different direction, what would have been your preferred outcome in this situation?

              2. Meredith Brooks*

                Wholeheartedly agree that I’m getting to BEC mode and appreciate the efforts to make me see that this isn’t horrendous behavior. I realize that on the scale of awful things bosses do, this is not even close to being midway to horrible. I suppose the main crux of this issue is that she tends to micromanage and asking me to oblige her was an indication that I wasn’t obliging her, when what I was doing was informing her of the information I may have had that she didn’t. But rather than taking this information for simply what it was – information – she determined that I somehow was obstructing her authority, which is not a trait of mine. (Not just by my own admission, but noted in my performance reviews in my decade of work — I’m a helper, sometimes to a fault).

          2. Jules the Third*

            I think you’re at BEC for sure, because this doesn’t sound egregious or even particularly irritating.

            1. BenAdminGeek*

              Agree. You’re in BEC mode now. Based on your details, you’re right and she’s wrong. But the “indulge me” is a polite way of saying “you need to do this now” and I get that it feels personal, but it doesn’t sound that way to me.

    5. LilySparrow*

      Ugh. I hate it when micromanagers try to pretend they aren’t.

      I tend to just shut down and say, “okay, tell me how you want it done.”

  52. clow*

    Hi all, got a probably stupid question. I left a pretty toxic place a little over a year ago and this is probably the anxiety and paranoia that I still feel after leaving but I just want to ask. At toxicjob I made a complaint for psychological harassment but I did it when i put in notice. I had complained to my HR rep about my boss’s toxic behavior and he told me to focus on my performance (i had been placed on PIP at this point after complaining about lack of feedback) and to deal with harassment (his words not mine) by myself first. I decided to quit at that point and when I did, the HR director decided to open an investigation. The conclusion was in favor of my complaint, but I was leaving anyway. I recently found out that toxic boss has now been dropped from the team (not fired as far as I can tell). I never bad mouthed him, the most was talking to other peers on my team about what he said or did and them encouraging me to go to HR because similar stuff happened to them. Can he sue me or anything because he got dropped from the team? I have not gone on glassdoor, or spoken about the investigation with anyone. I know I am probably being over anxious, but I can’t stop thinking about it.

    3. Applecinnamonroll*

      Toxic jobs, toxic bosses, psychological harassment, and now you are feeling anxious over possible retaliation. You may want to speak with a psychologist who specializes in workplace/career issues. You may need someone who can help you regain your equilibrium and reaffirm what is normal workplace expectation/behavior. It sounds like this boss hurt you, and you should seek out a safe place to heal.

    4. clow*

      Thank you guys. I do go through days of being normal, and days where I am just anxious and my brain starts going into crazy “what if” mode. I’m at a really good job with awesome people right now who value my skills and experience, and my work hasn’t been affected, but man, some days I just cannot shake the anxiety from a job I left a full year ago.

  53. Notthemomma*

    Guys.
    My friend called my yesterday to talk about the mid year review she just had for a job she’s been in 3 months now. The goals her manager had given her were 1. Be Nice and 2. Ask Questions. She is ‘Far Exceeding Goals’. Obviously, as she gets farther in, goals will align more to SMART goals, but he is purposely setting the bar low to give her a higher ranking which will result in a bigger raise since they couldn’t match what she asked for originally.
    I’m just. Wow. Just wow

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I kinda had that situation at my previous job. I had negotiated for a higher salary and got a small bump. But then my first year raise was significantly higher than average, and I think it had a lot to do with my manager really trying to retain me (he knew my skills weren’t being used as much as I had hoped). The next year he got me switched over to more fitting work, which was awesome. Best manager ever.

  54. Not Today Satan*

    Sometimes I see job ads that actually make me want to email the companies and be like “you know this is ridiculous right?” The other day I saw a job add for a mid-level position that asked for three WRITTEN references with your application. Like, reference letters. This wasn’t a teaching job either (the only field I’ve ever heard of where that’s semi-normal). Like what? I’d barely be comfortable asking references to write letters even if I got to a final interview stage, let alone before I even got picked to phone screen.

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I’m actually kind of radical in that I don’t think candidates should need to produce anything (besides a resume and cover letter) until they’ve progressed to a second interview. I think work samples are important, but for example I once had to make a new training (so, not provide work I’ve already done) to a first round interview. And like… at this point I’ve barely talked to you, I don’t know the pay rate and I’m not sure if I even want the job, but I need to spend tons of time and energy making something for you that I’ll never make again?? I think waiting to a second interview makes sense, because then you’ve mutually decided there’s some interest in moving forward.

    2. Anonymosity*

      Ugh. I had to ask for that once for a job in the local school system. Then I never heard anything back after I filed my application. What a complete waste of everyone’s time. I never applied there again.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Me too! I brought it up with the administration with the subtext of “I really don’t want to inconvenience my references this early in the process” but … it’s their process. And the complete lack of acknowledgment of my, and my references’, effort is just irritating.

    3. irene adler*

      Can only hope that the HR folks become absolutely overwhelmed with going through all the written references they requested.

    4. Ree*

      I seem to come across a LOT of job listings that are ridiculous.
      One required expert level experience with a very specific program. That this company designed. And used almost exclusively in-house. And those who did use it would not be applying to this position(as in, program is for specialized field, position is admin-ish and not technical)
      Sometimes I want to send the company an email to tell them they’re crazy but I haven’t…yet. Few more months of job hunting might send me over the edge though!

    5. Grouchy 2 cents*

      I am always tempted to reply to the batcrap crazy ones. I’ve seen applications request 5 professional references from people NOT at your Company plus 5 personal references – but no coworkers. (That was for a low level admin job by the way) Then there are the ones like: hey guys, you list 72 specific tasks that must be performed and you want someone there 11 hours a day…but you’re paying $30k under market rate. What are you expecting here? Or, really? You want me to complete a 5 page questionnaire that asks about the Company? For an anonymous job posting where the Company isn’t named? Cool. Cool. I hope you’re getting lots of useful responses there geniuses.
      I especially love the ones where they spend half the ad emphasizing how detail-oriented and nit picky the job is…except they haven’t bothered to spell check so the job title is misspelled throughout.

  55. A. Ham*

    I know there are at least a few people on here who work in performing arts or museums….
    Anyone else attending TLCC in a few weeks?

    1. Museum Anon*

      Had to switch my username since my colleagues all know I’m on here. Do you genuinely like using Tessitura? I tested it and hated it so, so much. So short answer, no, not going to TLCC.

      1. A. Ham*

        I don’t have a huge amount of things to compare it to, but yes, I like it. (of the 4 performing arts jobs that i have been in since college, 3 have used Tessitura). It definitely has its quirks, but as I use it more and more (going on 8 years now) I understand it’s functionality and can use a lot more of the stuff that i used to just ignore because i didn’t know how to use it. haha.
        I like that It’s both Ticketing and Devo (and education, although that area could definitely use some improvement) so we can get a more full view of our patrons in one place, and it can also be helpful when segmenting for mailing lists.
        As someone who is sometimes called upon to train new users, i can definitely understand why it can be so frustrating though. I guess I’m just used to it. The conference is AMAZINGLY helpful. there are SO MANY organizations that use Tess, so you meet all these people that are doing things in ways that I would never have thought of, that i can take back to my organization and improve our functionality. I’m really looking forward to it.

  56. Curious in Ft Worth*

    What do you think of this interview question? “If you saw your mom stealing from your place of work, what would you do?”

    It’s supposed to be a question re: loss prevention and show the interviewer honesty (if you don’t turn in your mom you’re honest because most people wouldn’t, but if you say you would turn her in, you’re lying) Kinda a weird way to glean this information.

    I don’t agree about the use of a family member in the interview process, even hypothetical. I feel like, due to the pressure of the interview, the interviewee will give out a lot more information (to rationalize their response) than is necessary, particularly family information the interviewer doesn’t need to know.

    Law enforcement use ‘If you saw or knew your partner stole a candy bar, what would you do?” but that is a coworker, not a family member.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know. This feels like one of those “gotcha” questions that’s intended to weed out a bad employee but might end up accidentally weeding out good employees who can’t just come up with the “right” answer on the spot.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      In answer to the interview question itself, I would say it really depends on what she stole. If she took an ufufy off someone’s desk, and I’d probably tell her to put it back, and then just never let her come to my workplace ever again. But if she stole a large sum of money from my workplace, I’d probably turn her in to the police.

    3. Worried dude*

      I think the use of family members as a hypothetical might offend some people in a “how dare you would ever suppose my mom would steal something” way

      1. Curious Cat*

        Also not to mention you never know what someone’s family situation is like. Maybe their mother has passed away and it will upset them, maybe they have two dads, maybe they’re estranged from their mother. Questions like this just make me shake my head in disdain

        1. Jayeraye*

          Exactly! When I read this question my first thought was “call a priest, and then maybe the Ghostbusters.” My mom would have found that response hilarious :)

          1. Hamburke*

            My immediate thought is “send her for a psych eval bc that’s totally out of character for her…”

    4. Myrin*

      That is so weird! I’m suuuper close to my mum and if I saw her stealing from my place of work, I would absolutely turn her in, I’m just wired that way. (Although that’s certainly aided by the fact that if I got that question, I’d immediately add in “stealing [something big/valuable] from your place of work” – it wouldn’t even occur to me to think of something as benign as the candy bar mentioned in your last sentence. If my mum stole a candy bar, I’d probably be like “what the heck, don’t do that!” or try to wrestle it from her; if my mum stole one of the expensive gaming consoles we have at my one work, you can bet your behind I’d immediately alert someone, favourite person in the world or not.)

    5. Alton*

      I’m not crazy about that question, either. It’s hard to approach it in an unbiased way and come up with an answer on the spot because you probably know your mom. If stealing would be wildly out of character for her, then realistically, you’d be taken aback. And if you’re aware of reasons she might steal, those reasons might be very weighty and personal (poverty, mental illness, etc.), and then you’re getting into some really complicated territory.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, this is obviously an extreme version, but it follows the same principle: you wouldn’t ask someone “What would you do if your mom came in and set off a bomb that destroyed the entire office?” It’s just so bizarre to pick a real person whose character you know nothing about and then attach “what if” behaviors to that person.

    6. Washi*

      Alison warns against hypothetical questions because they tend to not be that good at predicting what people will actually do in a given situation, and I think if nothing else, this falls under that umbrella. And the link in my username demonstrates that there can be problems with hypotheticals to try to test moral reasoning.

      Personally, I would be a bit startle by a question about something so unlikely to happen in real life that I would have trouble answering! At least replacing “mother” with “coworker” would introduce fewer extraneous dynamics. (What if I know my mother is a kleptomaniac? etc)

      1. Texas Y'all*

        Thanks for that resource. Very interesting you talk about predictive behavior, especially since the interviewee probably has never been faced with this issue and has not worked for this company before. Both need to be in place for someone to accurately reason what they think they would do.

      2. Tau*

        Yeah, I have no idea what I’d do in that situation because it’s so vanishingly unlikely. My best guess is “freak out and try to get her to a medical professional ASAP because this is so wildly out of character something might be terribly, terribly wrong.” I’m not sure where this falls on the scale of moral reasoning.

        1. Lison*

          This, this would be my response by instinct if I had to answer, and first response would be What? Because if I saw my mother stealing anything there is obviously a medical issue at play and while I would obviously try to stop the theft there is a much bigger issue that needs to be dealt with. On a separate note is this a question aimed at applicants who might come from more difficult economic backgrounds? Because if so it is frankly disgusting, I can’t imagine that Harvard graduate types are asked that sort of question.

      1. Marthooh*

        “No, Mom, just because these people ask stupid hypothetical questions, that doesn’t mean it’s okay to steal from them!”

          1. As Close As Breakfast*

            This was legit my first thought when I read the question. And then I quickly teared up. So, ffs, I hope no one ever asks me this stupid question in an interview.

    8. Anonymosity*

      I’d be grossed out by the question and I’d probably reconsider working for that employer.

    9. Someone else*

      I think it’s a crappy question because a LOT of people will view it as a gotcha, that presumably has a “right” answer or a “wrong”answer and will try to guess at which is desired. But the real point of this kind of question, if asked, SHOULD be not what you answer but the reasons you give for why. The point should be more about your thought process than your conclusion. IE If you’d turn her in because you believe strongly in rule following vs you’d not turn her in but encourage her to turn herself, or somehow make it right or whatever, then you’re showing loyalty (which some employers value strongly although that’s another can of worms) or if instead you ask more questions about the context, rather than instantly having a solid answer, that reflects a different type of thinking. If you’re asking the question because you assume the “what they’d do” itself is associated with one and only one “why”, then the question is being used wrong. Whereas if you’re listening mostly for the why they give, more than the what they’d do, then it might be useful.

    10. Girl friday*

      People are strongly biased against or for family members, and partners, so I would consider the question invalid.

    11. Good, Cheap, or Soon. Pick Two.*

      I’ve seen it blow up in an interviewer’s face more than once. Some examples:

      “I’d know we’re in the zombie apocalypse because she’s dead.”
      Hysterical crying because the woman had never, in fact, met her mother.
      “Well, she took a swing at me when she found out I was gay, so calling the cops on her sounds good!”
      “We’re estranged.”

  57. ER...EC*

    Inspired by the question earlier this week, how do you keep yourself organized?

    I’ve probably got a grab bag of systems which probably isn’t the most efficient. I use handwritten notes for short term to-dos and Outlook tasks further ahead. I’m also partial to One Note for more detailed notes and tracking.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Mainly email.

      When I used Outlook, I had a “done” folder. Everything in my inbox was not done (even if it was read), and everything in the done folder was done.

      Now that I’m using Gmail at work (its concept of labels and folders takes some getting used to), I just star messages that I need to get back to.

      If no one sends me a message, but I’m making my own to-do, I’ll just email myself a message. If it’s something that has to be done on a specific date and time, though, I’ll just put it on the calendar.

    2. Curious Cat*

      I most use my Outlook calendar & rely on it for the reminders (especially for meetings and far away appointments), but I also use an actual physical agenda to jot down big action items, and a small notebook for an every day to-do list.

    3. Goya de la Mancha*

      OneNote is my jam as far as information tracking. But Google calendar takes care of all my appointments and tasks. I block time for certain tasks on certain days and then I have it set up so that my calendar emails me every morning with that day’s itinerary.

    5. Good, Cheap, or Soon. Pick Two.*

      The Staples knock off of the Levenger system… the full notebook size with the calendar, notebook, and everything else all tabbed out. I get endless loads of crap for it, too because we’re an IT company. I have non-hyperactive ADHD (what used to be diagnosed as ADD before they reworked the diagnoses) and I was put through a ton of adaptive therapy instead of medications. Part of what they did was structured organization and this was before digital was an option. Plus, if I physically write something down, I remember it. So, while my iPhone and Outlook can do a lot of what this beast can do, this is what keeps me organized and on track. It also keeps my teams from sneaking in and trying to double book my time. They have to go through my admin to try and alter my schedule, which means they have to behave. So, it does actually keep things more organized.

  58. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    I’ve commented before that I have a crazy annoying co-worker who mutters, mumbles, swears and reads emails aloud all day long, which drives me nuts. In addition, we now have some temps working on the other side of my cube wall who seem to do nothing but laugh and talk loudly for most of the day (I’ve reported it to my manager but as per the usual no one is ever held accountable around here). The noise breaks my concentration constantly and I’m in the midst of some important reporting that requires a lot of attention to detail.

    I can’t listen to music to drown out all the noise because I find it just as distracting as the other noises, but yesterday I downloaded a white noise app in desperation and OH MY GOD it works like a charm. I haven’t felt less stabby at work in weeks! I wish I’d thought of it sooner.

    1. Myrin*

      Have you given nature sounds a try yet? There are ten hour long videos on youtube of rain and storm sounds and they’ve been awesome for me in the past when I’ve tried to block out noise, but others might find them just as distracting.

      1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

        This particular app includes some nature sounds – I listened to a rushing stream for hours yesterday and it was bliss.

      2. Daniela*

        I think I know the youtube video you mean. It’s 10 hours of rain sounds on a car roof. Super relaxing and I use it all the time to block out coworker-sounds. This one works for me when music might be too distracting.

        1. Anonymosity*

          When I was working on the pirate story in my collection, I found one that was called Sleep on a Pirate Ship. It’s eight hours of ambient sailing ship noises: the boom of waves, ropes creaking, etc. Not only did it work to put me into the setting, but oh boy, was it great for concentration.

          1. Geeky*

            There are also several with space-ship ambient noise. Choose your favorite ship – Enterprise, Enterprise-D, Deep Space 9, Death Star, Nostromo…

        2. Myrin*

          There are many of this type of video! My personal favourite is one with a rainstorm by the seaside!

    2. WellRed*

      I keep meaning to do this. My boss chews gums very loudly. Another coworker is always crinkling packaging from Little Debbie Snack Cakes (or some such). Drives me batty.

    3. Tara S.*

      Lots of no-talking asmr videos/tracks are good for this stuff too. Also, I love asoftmurmur dot com, it lets you mix the sounds!

    4. Anxiety Anon*

      There is a site called Ambient Mixer that has a bunch of pre-loaded sound combinations or you can make your own – my current favorite background noise is “Ravenclaw Common Room” which has moderate wind, crackling fireplace, pages turning, voices murmuring, faint angelic choir, quills writing, and a few other pleasant noises. There’s playlists for “Afternoon in the Shire” and other nerdy locations…

      1. saffytaffy*

        Somebody else loves Ravenclaw Common Room… I think it’s Jen Yates from Cake Wrecks!

      2. SpaceNovice*

        Oh, this is an amazing site. I think it’s my new favorite one. Thank you for the suggestion! (I’m listening to “The Man with the Blue Box” as we speak.)

    5. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      I used to listen to a very repetitive binaural track that I found randomly by searching (I think it’s called Holy Harmony but I’m not sure). It has some voices singing some non-English phrase over and over with weird binaural sounds in the background. I know they are supposed to have all sorts of healing properties, etc, but I just like how effectively the binaural effect seems to cancel out background noise.

      1. Windchime*

        I listen to a white noise app, but the track I actually listen to is “Brown Noise”. It’s just the right pitch and, combined with my Bose noise-canceling headphones, I can’t hear a thing. It makes such a difference in my ability to concentrate.

    6. Jaid_Diah*

      I love the White Noise app. It’s customizable and you can combine sounds. I have a PinkNoise/Cat Purring/Heartbeat combination set up as my favorite. It also has sounds of fans, dishwashers, cars, as well as the usual nature sounds.

  59. strawberries and raspberries*

    I’m sitting on tenterhooks because I had two interviews and a reference check for a position that I REALLY want, with people I REALLY like and respect and have worked with for a while, and I feel REALLY confident but I don’t want to overshoot it, and now I’m worrying about crazy things like “Per yesterday’s letter about this was it inappropriate to call the doctors Dr. and the nursing director Ms. in my thank you note because the nursing director introduced herself by first name but the doctors introduced themselves as Dr. and I felt really weird writing ‘you [Dr.], Dr. Horney*, and Phyllis*’ and it wasn’t sexism because one of the doctors was a woman but maybe it’s classist and even though I think I hit all the right notes in the interview what if they hate me now I really want this hnnnnnngggggggggg” /anxiety

    I really want this!

    *not their real names

    1. T3k*

      I wouldn’t stress over that too much, unless they told you several times to just call them X. One time, I was interviewing for a small position at a company in a field that’s known to be very relaxed (think sandals, shorts, etc. as normal attire) and I was trying to be polite in my emails by saying “Mr.Last Name” despite feeling that was weird, until he finally just asked me to call him by his first name.

      1. strawberries and raspberries*

        The rational part of me knows this is a silly thing to worry about. The stress part of me is HOLD MY BEER.

        1. Lison*

          The main theme from that thread was if someone asks you to call them something, believe them. You had one interaction with them where they told you what to call them and that’s what you did. Doing anything differently would be imposing your comfort over theirs. It may be that there is some classism there but you don’t know, the thread had many people saying “Technically I’m X but I prefer Y”. You did good. I hope you can stop worrying but I know that’s easier said than done. Hard to stop the brain weasels but I hope commenting helped. I

  60. Sadie Doyle*

    Yesterday, my boss’s boss told me that I need to be meaner.

    When I mentioned it to someone, they paused in thought and said, “Yeah, he’s probably right.” And he is — I’m definitely too nice most of the time.

    How do I work on that? Not mean as in cruel or being a jerk – just a bit sterner, a bit more authoritative, pushing people a little harder, those kinds of things that don’t come naturally to me at all.

    1. Rey*

      Did he provide some areas where he wants you to be more assertive? Like in handling employees on a PIP or when interacting with clients on a specific project? This will help you to focus your efforts in the parts of your job where he views this as a priority.

      I would do a little soul-searching about why you haven’t been more stern or authoritative in the past, or why you hesitate to push people. Then you need to reframe it and change your way of thinking about it to give yourself permission to do this without feeling badly. You might also think about previous assertive bosses that you liked and disliked and compare what made the difference. Especially if you are managing employees, it’s important to remember that not being assertive can be harmful to employees, because they’re relying on you to manage them. AAM is full of stories about bosses who won’t manage, and the negative results that can have on a team.

    2. Bagpuss*

      Did they give any examples? (of situations where you need to be firmer?)

      If you can identify the sort of situations they are thinking of, then you might ind it helpful to practice – think of the scenario, think about how you usually respond, and then think about how you could be firmer, and then start to put that into practice. If you have a partners or roommate you trust, you could try a few practice runs with them role playing the pushy customer / coworker.

      Depending in the scenario, you can try changing your automatic response – so if you say yes to everything, consider a different immediate response (e.g. “I’ll need to check what else I’ve got waiting , and get back to you”)
      If there are things you end up doing because you are a soft touch, practice saying “I’m really busy, perhaps [other person] can help” or even “I’m really busy, so can’t help right now”

    3. Tara S.*

      Maybe start going over emails and taking out softening words? I have to do this sometimes, remove the “please”s, “if you don’t mind”s, and use more active language instead of passive. It’s nice because you can think about it a bit more with email, and hopefully it will eventually translate into your verbal communication.

    4. Girl friday*

      I can be both mean or strict but I am not a mean person at all. Instead of mean, think effective, and remove all extra words from your communication. Do be very polite and kind though.

    5. Thlayli*

      Unless you work in politics or comedy, mean is probably the wrong word, and so is nice. He most likely wants you to be more assertive. There are a ton of resources online about being assertive.

  61. Worried dude*

    What do you do when you realise you have become a bitch eating crackers for your boss?
    I never had a good relationship with one of our bosses. After a year working with his team, he transferred me out, resulting in a huge change in my job description. I was not happy about this, but because the constant job rotation seemed to be a common part of our office, I didn’t question it much. However, recently, as our paths have crossed for a temporary project, it seems I cannot do anything right in his eyes. If I draft an e-mail, it would be not according to our office norms, despite the fact I was following previous examples. If I draft a report, it would be long winding and confusing. If I communicate with vendors, my e-mails ruin the reputation of our company. Today, he asked me to send an e-mail, and added the note, “DO NOT OFFEND PEOPLE IN YOUR E-MAIL.”. As a result, I had become paranoid of everything I am writing and doing. Problem also being he told me that “apparently one of be vendors felt that my emails were rude”, but without pinpointing which one of the person it was, I am left in the dark as to WHAT I wrote wrongly. I do not want to talk to him about anything, because I am worried anything might trigger a barrage of put downs.
    Is it possible to mend a relationship with a boss when it reaches this stage? Our office’s structure means that even though I am outside his team, I would inevitably have to interact with him professionally.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I agree. If the boss was interested in fixing it, he would give you real feedback with suggestions for improvement, not drive-by insults. And if your attempts to follow up in order to improve are met with put downs? Nope, not fixable.

        I think the suggestions below are good – first get a second opinion from another boss when you get these vague negative responses, and second check out the job market if it looks to be a long-term problem. If it’s just very short term interactions and otherwise the job is good, you might signal to your other boss(es) that you will need some support in providing MeanBoss with the best efforts whenever it comes up, given his treatment of you to date.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      I don’t know if you can repair your relationship with him, but maybe you could get some OTHER people in management to see there’s an issue here (and it’s not you!)?

      If you have a very good and strong relationship with YOUR boss, maybe you could talk to your boss about (without it back-firing on you)… You can’t say “Joe hates me,” of course, but maybe ask about specific things Joe gave you feedback on!

      – Hey Boss, I’m concerned because Joe has mentioned a few times that my emails come across rude to vendors, when I thought the emails were professional. Can you help me figure out what I’m doing wrong / change my tone / pinpoint the issue / etc.

      – While we’re talking about emails, which template should I be using for X? I thought I had the right formatting, but Joe let me know it didn’t match. I used Y because of Z. Does that make sense?

      I’m not sure about the report “problem”, simply because “confusing” is helpful feedback and doesn’t give you info on what to change? But you could try the same format for that as well.

      Good luck! He sounds like a jerk, quite frankly :(

      1. Thlayli*

        Yes, talk to your own boss about it. You never, know it might turn out that he is the weirdo everyone hates.

    3. A Nickname for AAM*

      I think you should leave, and also, you should consider the source. Typically when you’ve done something wrong and a boss wants you to improve, they’ll tell you in a constructive manner, ex: Vendor X found your last email offensive because you called the defective item a lemon, and his family are citrus farmers, be mindful of that in the future.

      Whereas when someone is just a jerk who’s trying to personally attack you, they’ll weigh heavily on a broad-based conclusion and then refuse to give any supporting details, ex: “People think you’re rude and have no personality.” They will not tell you who thinks this or why they think this, and often, it’s a proxy for how THEY feel about you, not anything you’ve done.

      I use this kind of feedback as a giant red flag that I’m dealing with a toxic person and adjust the relationship accordingly. In your case, I’d leave.

  62. Email etiquette*

    I’d like to speak to my manager about an email habit that annoys me, but I’m not sure if it’s appropriate to bring it up or if it is too small/petty. The head of our department, to whom I reported directly until my manager was hired, is always very courteous when emailing – starts off with “good morning/good afternoon,” or at least addresses the recipient by name, and ends with “thank you/best.” My colleagues and I do likewise. The new manager does not follow this convention – we receive emails with the question in the subject line and nothing in the body of the email, or if our manager has a question about an email received from someone else we will get the email forwarded to us with a brief/brusque question (“what is this?”) in the body of the email and nothing more. I definitely don’t think it is necessary that a lengthy email exchange on the same subject contain a greeting/signature in each message and I know we are all very busy, but when the first email of the day says “What is this?” with no hello or anything, I find it pretty rude. We also often do not get a response/acknowledgement to any reply we send, unless there is another question.

    This is by no means my only complaint about this person and my colleagues and I are working to address larger issues, but this seems like a small thing that would be easy to do most of the time. But is it too small to bring up in the first place?

    1. all charitied out*

      In a lot of offices, I encountered bosses who love to use brusque and short replies. In fact, the higher the rank, the shorter the reply. I wonder if your new manager probably feels this is the norm?

      1. Email etiquette*

        That is entirely possible! It certainly isn’t the norm for our company, or really for our industry, but this manager came from another industry. I suppose I will add it to the list of the ways this person is a bad fit for our culture and move on. It has been well over a year so I doubt a change is coming.

    2. Margery*

      Actually I’d probably prefer a shorter email rather than paragraphs of everything. It does seem a bit rude but maybe your manager is just really really busy.

    3. Tara S.*

      I totally get it feeling rude, but yeah, I don’t think this rises to the level of bringing it up. People are just like that sometimes!

    4. Natalie*

      Nope, I wouldn’t bring this up at all, especially sinceyou have other issues with this person. To be blunt, it sounds petty af and it has a potential to undermine any genuinely important complaints that you want addressed.

      People have different emailing styles, and lots of people use email a little more like a chat program. They’re doing it At You.

      1. Natalie*

        (Hopefully obviously) that last sentence should say “they’re NOT doing it At You.”

    5. A Nickname for AAM*

      Husband worked in an office where people would use the subject line of the email like a text message:

      Subject: Lunch meeting moved from 1 to 2 pm EOM
      Subject: Did Jane finish analyzing the data for the report EOM

      With EOM standing for “End of Message, don’t bother opening the email because the body of it is blank.”

      It drove him *nuts* because it was so rude, but it wasn’t worth arguing either.

      1. Artemesia*

        A lot of pointless gibble gabble is a ruder waste of time than putting a simple change in the subject line with EOM. It is basically a text by email. I’d rather get that then open an Email to:

        Good morning
        I just want to aprise you of the fact that we have changed the meeting on widgets from 1 t0 2 pm tomorrow

        Have a nice day
        Joe

        What a waste of time.

        1. A Username*

          Yeah, but you could also write that email like this, and not look like a jargon-y turd:

          Subject: Mon Jul 2 meeting now at 2 pm

          Body: Hi everyone,
          Please note that the meeting for Monday July 2 was moved to 2 pm because there is a pigeon infestation in the conference room and Facilities said that the room will not be fit for human habitation until 2 pm.

          Thank you,
          Manager

    6. Thlayli*

      Meh, I wouldn’t think that was rude at all. Just sounds like someone who uses their blackberry / smartphone all the time instead of a computer. Even if they are doing it at a computer it’s not really rude.

      I like the idea of sticking EOM on the end though – you could suggest that to him so you know you don’t have to open up the mail or worry that there’s an attachment missing.

  63. MissGirl*

    I believe this toes the line of legality, but I’m curious if others have experienced this and how they handled it.

    My friend is exempt but has to clock in each day. If she doesn’t get 40 hours at the end of each week, the hours are deducted from her PTO. If she doesn’t have enough PTO, she goes negative. On weeks she works more than 40 hours, she doesn’t get anything extra.

    She’s pushed back on this, but they are adamant this somehow protects their employees’ PTO (WTF?). She was sick for several weeks but managed to get her work done each day with about 6-hour days, but this wiped out her PTO.

    She’s a professional but wonders if she can ask to go hourly. Is there anything anyone would advise?

    2. Texas Y'all*

      I could spitball my way through this but instead I’m going to vomit. This is horrible HR practices. PTO can be earned, but surely not reduced based on hours not/worked.

    3. SoCalHR*

      You need to clarify what state you are in, because state laws have nuisances to them. In CA, the law looks strictly on the PAY of an exempt employee, so if they’re not docking her pay, its probably technically legal. But certainly not an ideal way to treat exempt employees. And an employer who operates like this may be stretching the definition of what is legally considered “exempt” and what’s not.

    4. Ciaraamberlie*

      I cannot comment on legality, because I have no idea! But it is an utterly disgusting way to treat employees.

      She could try asking to go hourly, and perhaps before doing that track her hours for a set period (at least a month, maybe more) to see what the difference in pay would be. It would also enable her (if she hasn’t already) to show her employer how many hours she’s actually working on average every week. So some weeks she might be doing 38 and getting docked, but on others she’s working 48 and not getting overtime. If her average is well over 40 hours a week, she has clear standing to give this one last push back to see if they’ll budge.

    5. halmsh*

      This is legally sketchy. She should call the Dept of Labor for your state and ask! Legally, you can’t dock pay from exempt workers. This may be a workaround to avoid breaking that law, but going into negative PTO may well count as docking pay. She should call and request info ASAP.

      If that doesn’t get things moving, her and her colleagues should do some research, and push back as a group.

    6. Nacho*

      This is one of those totally legal, but still not great, business practices.

      PTO is considered a benefit in America, and not regulated in the same way salary is. That means they don’t have to give you any, and they can cut it for any reason that doesn’t violate the contract that approximately 0 Americans have. Same reason companies can force you to use PTO before you’re allowed to take unpaid FMLA leave.

    7. Schnoodle*

      Hey, HR here. This is perfectly legal in my state. If they were docking her PAY, that’d be different.

      Is it a crappy practice that reduces morale? Yes.
      Is it illegal? Not here!

    8. MissGirl*

      We know it’s not technically illegal; they’re very close to the line but keeping on the legal side. That’s why I asked the question if anyone had any thoughts on how to handle it. Is there a better way to push back or how to phrase it.

      1. Artemesia*

        Well in France everyone would be out on the street. Here labor is not organized and so pushing back as a group is difficult. It is appalling that they nickel time hours not worked while not rewarding extra hours worked. If every single employee worked 40 hours and no over, they might make the point, but one or two would just get fired.

    9. JessicaTate*

      Agree with others, it is absolutely legal. And it is one of my biggest pet peeves about the exempt/non-exempt system. Certain companies do this, and it sure seems to me like the employer milking all the benefits out of having a salaried employee (they can work tons of overtime and we don’t have to pay them!), with the employee not getting any of the purported benefits of the job being about getting your work done, not butt-in-seat time (i.e., you must work 40 hours per week or we will dock your PTO).

      I think it’d be a real long-shot to get them to classify you as hourly / non-exempt. Companies that do this seem really cheap / nickel-and-diming to me. I’ve seen individual managers create work-arounds to be more humane to their employees within the parameters. But if there’s an official clocking-in/out system in real time, I think that would be hard for a manager to accommodate.

    10. Ann O.*

      This seems like it calls for a work-to-rule response where no one ever works over 40 hours. They’re really taking away the point of having salary workers by doing this. Unfortunately, that does require some worker cohesion to do so may or may not apply to your friend’s situation.

      OTOH, if your friend’s job class is rarely hourly, it may require worker cohesion to get that switch, too.

  64. Marillenbaum*

    Hello! I’m about to start a new job that is business formal for the first six weeks. I’ve bought two new suits, tops, dresses, but I’m wondering about jewelry. I know I need some to make myself look more ‘finished’, but I’m not entirely sure what would be a good starting point. Suggestions welcome!

    1. Rey*

      Start simply and then watch what the other women in the office wear, both in kinds of jewelry and amount. For the first day, I would choose very simple stud earrings (think pearls/faux pearls, nothing too flashy) and a simple wrist watch (if you typically wear one). Unless you’re working in fashion, I don’t think people will notice that you’re not wearing a lot of jewelry, or assume that your outfit is unfinished. Especially until you get used to the office culture, I would keep it very lowkey.

    2. BadWolf*

      I love to wear jewelry — but I see it as a personal preference so I don’t expect others to be wearing jewelry at work. Of course, that may vary. But I wouldn’t buy random pieces now if it’s not stuff you wouldn’t generally wear/like.

      But I work somewhere pretty casual…so grain of salt.

    3. Jemima Bond*

      I would avoid anything chunky or “jingly” at least until you see what others wear. I’d suggest stud earrings only, necklaces that are a chain + small pendant or a plain string of small beads, and if you like bracelets keep them narrow and not noisy, so a simple chain/link type one, not bangles.
      Frankly having a go-to set that you wear some or all of each day because you feel they are Marillenbaum Classics would be good and wouldn’t have to be expensive – a pair of nice small silver stud earrings maybe in a shape you like, a silver chain with a pendant you like (heart, star, religious symbol, attractive abstract shape, small locket, whatever, just not an AK47 or a skull and crossbones probably…). I have crystal/stainless steel “tennis bracelet” that came in a gift set with my wristwatch and it feels very “grown up lady at the office” lol.

    4. Bex*

      You can’t go wrong with simple pearl studs to start with. An inexpensive pair on Amazon will be under $20. I’m partial to 8mm for conservative outfits/business formal.

    6. Chaordic One*

      Also, think about nice shoes to go with those new suits and dresses. Nice polished shoes can really dress up an otherwise “blah” outfit and make you look more polished. (I’m partial to low-heeled pumps.)

  65. Batshua*

    So, apparently the boss and I are going to HR. I don’t know when, and I don’t know what will happen.

    I know that they can’t do an accomodation for this, and moving my start time down will definitely not help. I think I just need a job where 5 minutes doesn’t matter.

    I have applied for another job (in HR, of all places), and deemed eligible for interview, but I have not been called for an interview. I am hoping. As much as I love this job and would hate to leave, I feel like my performance is poisoned by my trouble with time.

    2. Friday afternoon fever*

      Just chiming in to say I’ve intermittently followed your story across threads and I empathize with your ADHD-related struggles! Are you still lacking enough things to do at work?

      I am always running 5 minutes late and have been blessed to only have (so far) jobs where that’s not too big a deal. Honestly don’t know what I’d do if I had a job that was stricter. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I get how consistently being 5 minutes late can seem like such a small, easily fixable thing to a lot of people when it actually feels so insurmountable and totally intrinsic to just being me.

      Good luck with the job search!

      1. Batshua*

        I swear, there are like TIME GREMLINS eating my buffers!

        I am waking up at 5:30 to get to my job at 8:00, and all I can tell people is even with an extremely streamlined schedule, the amount of time it takes for me to “boot up” completely, to be fully alert and present is a LONG time, *and* it’s VARIABLE.

        I love structure, but I used to sleepwalk through my morning routine, but I had parents who made sure I didn’t like, fail responsibility and get to school on time.

        In college, my classes started at like, 10, so I had a ton of time to wake up and get functional.

        The real world is very not like that.

  66. Shellesbelles*

    Finding your own creative voice when being micromanaged. Is it possible? My boss wants me to be both creative, but also to do things exactly like he says. I don’t really know how to balance the two, short of trying to become a mind reader. He’s very critical and passive aggressive, so it makes things pretty tough. I’m having a hard time even accessing my creativity at this point. Any strategies or suggestions?

    1. seller of teapots*

      Ugh, I don’t have many ideas but I want to offer you a long distance hug. That sounds like a really rough combination. It sounds like your boss is saying he wants you to be creative, but really he wants your creativity to be what HE would create. So maybe you put your creative energies into something outside of work for the time being, and instead try to ask him a lot of questions to get real clear on his vision and do what you can within that framework?

    2. Tara S.*

      A little more asking for forgiveness instead of permission?

      I underestimated what I could just *do* in one creative job, and it resulted in a lot of things getting turned down early on. When I was in a meeting of people of similar roles in other departments, they talked a lot about how some things easier to just do and then show leadership after you’ve had a chance to test it, rather than trying to get them to approve it beforehand. Obviously, there is a line, and you should be cognizant of the effect your work may have if you just put it out there, but I regret not taking more chances. I feel like I had ideas (that I now know others did successfully) that would have been easier to explain when they were more developed/I had a chance to test them.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      I sympathize SO MUCH – because my boss was like this when I started (she was a first time manager that had been promoted from… my job). I was EXTREMELY anxious all the time and would literally take like 2x as long as I needed to complete projects because I was nit-picking the final project over and over and over… ugh. I’m in Marketing, if it helps to know :)

      It took a pretty long to change things, unfortunately. But the only reason it changed is because I learned to be a bit more assertive and question her (with genuine questions and not rudely!).

      I started by taking notes on EVERY new requirement she added during each project and using those to help me on future projects.

      Then she’d say change X to Y because that’s the rule… and I’d pull up the notes from our previous convo and say, okay, that’s fine but last time I did Y and you told me to change it to X. What’s different this time?

      And like 90% of the time there was no ACTUAL reason, she just happened to like Y this time. And I’d say okay, I can change it but I think X works because of [reason]. Andddd sometimes she’d let it go.

      That was the major action I took. Past that, we also had a couple sit-downs to go over revisions (and again she’d realize some of them didn’t really make sense), a couple training sessions on how manager prefers photography/video stuff to go, a couple me asking her to review and revise my notes for process X and the template for Z.

      So she started chilling out over time….

      I think the “final straw” was when I had a long vacation about 2 years into the job and manager had to cover for me (dept of 2!)… she couldn’t handle her own rules for all the processes I do and basically apologized to me when I got back and told me I could throw most of them out :)

      And we’ve been pretty great ever since!

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Hopefully some of this is useful :)

        The take away basically is standing up for my work better, and not just accepting every revision + incorporating it into future work without learning “why.” And if “why” was “just because,” offering a counterargument for why my way works just as well.

  67. seller of teapots*

    How do you deal with a colleague who gives you attitude and doesn’t seem think think you’re the right person for the job?

    About a month ago, I got a bit promotion. I went from being Teapot Seller to Director of the Teapot Selling Team. So far its been great. My boss (the CEO) seems very pleased with my performance, I know my team is happy with the changes I’ve already made, and all the execs I work with now seem happy with what I bring to the table….except one.

    We had a great working relationship when I was still a rep, but he’s made a few passive-aggressive comments since I got this promotion. Yesterday we had a 1-on-1 meeting that was Very Tense, much to my surprise. He’s really overwhelmed, and I think that’s at the heart of the issue, but his whole attitude seems to be…you’re too inexperienced for this role and you don’t know what you’re doing.

    My ego is somewhat hurt, but also a) I’m confident in my ability to do this job and b) I put a lot more weight in the feedback from my team and from my boss, so I’m not that concerned with correcting his opinion. BUT….how I do I work with him? It’s a small team, so all the execs work together pretty closely. I’m also not very good with passive-aggressive people (I’m pretty straight-forward) so I never know how to handle these sort of indirect conflicts.

    Anyway, any advice welcome!!!

    1. Not Today Satan*

      Unfortunately I don’t really have advice (other than trying to nip any disrespect in the bud) but I empathize. I’m youngish and look younger than I am, so a lot of people think I’m a lot less experienced than I am. Last year I was promoted to manage a woman a lot older than me who definitely was at BEC status with me. I couldn’t win–if I tried to be kind she just rolled over me, and if I asserted authority I was “full of myself”. Long story short she eventually got laid off (she should have been fired, but that’s another story….).

    2. Girl friday*

      Idk, my favorite saying is, “The facts don’t care what your f*ing opinion is.” Maybe that will help you get a better frame of mind to work with? :) Most opinions are worthless, really. And change often.

    3. StellaBella*

      I’d set up another 1:1 and ask him about it – in the frame of …. “I noticed our last 1:1 was tense and I’d like to understand this specific comment (give specific example, date, time context) – because I am capable and am so far getting good feedback that I am doing my job well…and I don’t know why our working relationship has changed from before when I was a rep. Can we have an open and honest discussion about this and if you see any issues try to find a way to solve them?” or something…. maybe?

  68. Reluctant Super*

    I’m in a bit of a pickle: I inherited supervising our student workers (the conversation was as follows “These are our student workers, you supervise them now” about a week after I started) and they are a mess. Last year a student disappeared for 2 weeks no text no calls no emails. I escalated it all the way to HR and three days later (after the student returned from their disappearance) HR told me that I could have campus security do a wellness check next time. Ok, that’s done and gone because they graduated but it set an awful precedent. Now I have another student worker who just doesn’t show up. Doesn’t call, doesn’t email, nothing. I’ve talked to them about this repeatedly in person and via email and it’s this sort of response of “Ok.” We’re always loathe to fire student workers, which I think at this point they realize, and so it’s a battle all of the time to get them to communicate, come to the office, and do their work.

    This isn’t the sort of job where they are checking out library books. They are working on projects for a variety of people in different roles and some of them are time sensitive and the work can’t easily be handed off to anyone else if they just decide not to do it.

    I’m frustrated because I’m sick of babysitting them (even though I know I literally have to) and I don’t know how to hold them to account. I’ve considered having them check in with me when they arrive but that seems unrealistic – I’m often in meetings and then I know they just won’t do it most of the time and then it’s another thing to chase. Does anyone have any ideas?

    1. WellRed*

      Don’t they have to clock in? Do they have set hours they are ignoring? Have you told your boss the impact f them not working on projects is having on the regular employees? Frankly, the best thing wold be to fire the lot of them and then screen better next time around.

    2. Rey*

      Oof, supervising students is its own minefield. My first question would be, do they have to come into the office to do their work and does it have to be on a specific schedule? If there’s any space for flexibility, I would consider that as much as possible. Start from there and then write down your concrete expectations for them. For example, “Must work at least 15 hours per week (in the office for at least 3 hours)”. Based on how flexible you’ve decided you can be, come up with a policy about absences (how they should communicate that they’re not coming, how much notice they must give, and how many chances they get). Then come up with a punishment that you’re willing to levy. It might be a rough transition now to get current student employees to comply, but ideally student employees that you hire in the future will understand these expectations from the interview process and won’t have as many issues.

      For the student employees that you already have, you could consider having a concrete conversation that basically says, “In the past you’ve been able to no-show and there were no consequences. This is changing and the consequences for no-show will be X and Y. In this role, we expect you to work 15 hours per week. Is this something you can commit to? We rely on you because of the time-sensitive nature of your projects. You’re a capable adult and I don’t want to micromanage you. We know that the expectations have been different in the past, but if this doesn’t sound like something you’re willing to do, we will need to let you go. Can you think about this and let me know your decision in 3 days?” I think it’s super important to give them a clear understanding of what the changes are, and then give them an opportunity to decide if the job is still a good fit for them. They are student employees, but you are paying them real money to do real work. And their no-show has an effect on the rest of your office–you cannot just let it continue because that passes the burden of their no-show onto the other student employees and the people whose projects they are supposed to be working on.

    3. Bagpuss*

      Could you set up a meeting and go over some basic expectations – e.g. showing up every day, who/how to call in if they are sick etc?

      Are they volunteers or getting paid? If they volunteer, what’s in it for them? I think you an tailor your conversation to that (e.g. if they are there because t means you can give them references or recommendations, explain explicitly that if they are unreliable or flaky you will have to reflect that in any reference provided, talk about how their behaviour comes over.

      If it is only some of them then have the same conversation but individually, rather than as a group.

      Is there any kind of formal induction or introduction when new workers start? Perhaps either establish one or review the existing one to make it clearer about expectations.

      Finally, do talk to your boss and ask about disciplining or even firing people if they can’t improve. What is the process, and how much of it is up to you, and who do you refer it to if you need to.

    4. Amtelope*

      I think you need some rules for this job that students explicitly agree to when they’re hired. “You must call or email if you’re going to be absent. After (three?) no-call/no-shows, we will need to terminate your employment. We rely on workers in this position to work the shifts they’re assigned. If you miss more than (five?) work shifts in one semester, we will need to meet to discuss whether it makes sense to continue your employment here.” And then follow through. If you’re not sure whether students are actually showing up on time, I’d institute a sign-in sheet and require them to sign in and out.

      1. Amtelope*

        Just realized from reading back over comments that this may not be a position where the students have scheduled hours. If it’s not, maybe you need to require students to sign up for particular work times, and commit to working at the times they’ve chosen. Completely flexible scheduling can be hard for students who aren’t particularly good at organizing their own time.

    5. Tara S.*

      Students, who typically by nature don’t have as much job experience, are apparently just like this! I was kind of surprised about this when I got a taste of managing students. You get your superstars (i.e. young me who was a goody two shoes), but a lot of them are blah and don’t take scheduling seriously. My much more experienced boss just said it was sort of the cost of doing business with student employees. That’s not to say that you should just take it – feel free to discipline or fire them, it will probably be a wake-up call. But apparently these kind of things (not showing up, not great professionalism) is more par for the course with student workers.

    6. Ama*

      So I’ve worked with student workers before (I was a university admin for almost a decade) and I have found the easiest way to prevent no shows is to address it with students at the start — give them point blank instructions on how they should let me know they aren’t coming in (and backup info if I happen to be out), tell them that I’m more than happy to work with them if they know they are going to have three tests one week and need a lighter work schedule but they should let me know as soon as possible so we can arrange for extra coverage, etc. Which won’t help you right this minute, but might be something you can do with the next group of newbies.

      Unfortunately there are a lot of student jobs that are just “sitting at a desk for a few hours mostly playing on your phone” and that sets a bad expectation for student jobs where actual work needs to get done — if your expectations are different you need to make that very clear and you need to make is clear there are consequences if those expectations aren’t met.

    7. pony tailed wonder*

      It sounds like you need to create a student handbook and have a meeting at the beginning of each semester to go over it and job expectations. Here is a thinly disguised snippet from ours –

      Attendance Policy
      You play an important role at XYZ so it is essential that you arrive to work for every shift, whether you are (list job duties here). If you do not show up for work or are frequently late, you are placing an extra burden on your coworkers, which can result in a lower quality of service to our (list who your stakeholders are here). Below are your attendance expectations as a student assistant at XYZ.
      Note: If you have a special circumstance that is ongoing and that may affect your attendance, let your supervisor know as soon as possible so adjustments can be made, if needed. Advance notice is appreciated.
      Absences
      You are expected to work all of your scheduled shifts.
      If you know in advance that you cannot make a shift, please try to get another student assistant to trade shifts or cover your shift. If you have coverage for your shift, it is not considered an absence. If you cannot find coverage, please let us know in advance so we can try to make arrangements and work with you about the shift.
      If you cannot come to work, you must call before the starting time of your shift. You must also give us an estimate of when you will return to work.
      Absences will be excused for the following reasons: illness with a doctor’s note, death in the family, emergencies that hinder you from getting to work, jury duty, etc.
      You are allowed two unexcused absences per semester (Sept. – Dec., Jan. – May, June – Aug.); one shift equals one absence.
      Excessive absenteeism is grounds for dismissal. Taking more than two unexcused absences per semester is considered absenteeism. Making frequent use of excused absences in the opinion of the supervisor is also considered excessive absenteeism. Also, failure to call in to report absences is grounds for dismissal.

    9. Library Land*

      I also supervise students (as a team of 3 supervisors). Please fire the ones that need to be fired. We have the same policy – no firing unless they’re doing something egregious (stealing, etc.). But it turns into exactly what you have, students who see no bad results when they do not do their job so they just stop doing their job. Holding low performers accountable is a valuable lesson for the low performers and for the other students. You are not teaching them how to behave in a professional environment and you’re setting them up for failure later on.

    10. AnotherLibrarian*

      I supervise between four and six student workers any given semester. You have to be willing to fire people. If you are not willing to fire them, than simply tell them that you “don’t have any hours for them this semester.”

      You have to start implementing some sort of structure. All of my student workers are doing complex, often very advanced tasks. They have a schedule. We expect them to show up within ten minutes of their start time. They clock in. If they don;t show up, the first time we have a conversation. The second time, a more serious conversation. The third time, they are fired. I tell them this when they start.

      However, they are also students first. So, my policy is as long as they give me 24 hour notice, I am willing to be quite flexible around midterms and finals. This requirement to contact me has seriously reduced no call no shows.

      But honestly, you have to implement some actual consequence. Because, if you are not careful, a culture of not seeing consequences leads to further issues.

    11. Artemesia*

      Nothing changes unless you can challenge the reluctance to fire them. If they need the jobs — well apparently not if they aren’t showing up. If you need the help well then you need to hire reliable help. I am bettering there are plenty of other students who could take their place. I would gather some data, and articulate the problems it causes the organization and also argue that one function of student jobs is socialization to the workplace and that the current system does none of these things. then I would propose a new system where after a no show a student is on probation, after a second they are on final probation and with a third they are fired. If the organization won’t support something like that then I would get aggressive about passing the supervision on to someone else since ‘I cannot manage student workers who are not required to work when I have no supervisory authority.’ Good luck.

  69. KarenT*

    Maybe not crazy, but I work in a work hard, play hard culture and some of the play hard elements would not go over well (some understandably!) with the AAM community.

    2. Not Today Satan*

      I often don’t relate to the “[whatever behavior/discussion] is totally inappropriate at work!” comments from both Alison and the comments. Every place I’ve worked has been really casual and people have overshared. For example I know most of my nearby coworkers’ opinions about politics, marriage, abortion, in some cases sex lol, etc. I understand why it’s not ideal but that’s simply been the norm for me.

  70. Amber Rose*

    We had a new person start, and nobody told me, which is a problem since I do orientation and safety training. And when I let my boss know I needed to do this, he asked, “what are you going to orientate him on?”

    Because I guess everything is location dependent and now that we’ve moved buildings, absolutely nothing I did in the old place was relevant. None of the rules, policies, procedures, and CYA info to keep us from getting sanctioned by the WCB are valid anymore. Also I’ve been sitting on my ass updating nothing for the last two weeks. /s

    Particularly since we had a new-ish person almost sever their finger this week. If that had happened to the new guy with no training records, we would be well and truly up shit creek.

    I’m just air around here to management. They hired me to do this job because they had to, but they don’t know what I do, don’t care what I do, and have no interest in helping me do it. But of course, when shit goes down it’s my ass on the line.

    It’s so frustrating.

    1. Schnoodle*

      You sound like you’re in HR!

      Let go of their perception, and instead focus on how helpful you are to each individual employee you orient!

      Then, when hell breaks lose, such as in an accident, toot your own horn on CYA for the company.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I wonder if HR would be less frustrating. :/
        I’m technically half sales, half safety, half assorted other shit. I wish I could get a job in HR and just be able to focus on that kind of stuff, since it’s the part of my job I actually enjoy.

    2. Artemesia*

      I knew all I needed to know about that boss when he used ‘orientate’. CYA in writing on all such failings.

  71. Friday*

    Recently, our great-grandboss, who is senior management, said this to my coworker, who is six months pregnant: “You’re getting fat.” We are not sure if it was a joke or not. I can’t believe this happened.

      1. Friday*

        This happened right after a meeting as people were getting up to leave. Not everyone heard it, but those who did were mostly speechless. One did say, “That’s not very nice,” but he said it quietly, so I’m not sure whether it was heard.

        1. Lison*

          We had an engineer say to the EHS manager when she was 6 months pregnant “I noticed you are letting yourself go” which basically affirmed for everyone who didn’t know he was an idiot that he was an idiot (his wife had had three babies at this point in time so duh?)

    2. strawberries and raspberries*

      I hope she said, “Yeah, it happens when you’re six months pregnant.”

  72. Not So Recently Diagnosed*

    I am positively brine-y with salt today.

    A salesperson requested that we, marketing, write an article for publication in an industry magazine. I wrote the article and had it reviewed by a total of 5 people, all of whom had minimal changes. The salesperson is supposed to submit the article on Sunday, but he is in Italy and has intermittent access to internet.

    I emailed him today reminding him that we were approaching the deadline. He emailed me back saying “I HOPE I get this done in time to submit.” Which tells me that even though 5 other professionals have reviewed this, he is willing to miss a chance to advertise our products rather than let it go out without his review. I am fuming.

    My boss is handling it because, while I am quite capable of civilly and professionally informing him that he can’t just NOT SUBMIT something we wrote because he clearly doesn’t trust us, he has the authority to actually make this person believe it.

    It has taken everything in me not to email the salesperson and say “if your opinion is the only one that matters, kindly write all of these things yourself rather than waste my time about it.”

    1. JS#2*

      That is really stupid! I just want to acknowledge that the salesperson is totally in the wrong and it sucks when people don’t trust you when FIVE! other professionals have signed off that you did a good job. Ugh.

  73. Crystal Smith*

    For those of you who have been lucky enough to have it happen, how long did it take for things to feel “normal” after the departure of a toxic coworker? I had a coworker who was just awful to me (and most people) who left for another job a few weeks ago, and I still find myself dreading her even though she’s long gone! I’ll be getting ready for work in the morning, or thinking of a task I have to do and how best to do it without involving Ethyl, or thinking about how Ethyl will hate xyz and feel a deep sense of dread. But she’s not there! I don’t have to think about her anymore! I guess it’s just shocking to me *how much* she was clearly affecting my day-to-day life, now that I’ve got some distance. (And, she was at my workplace when I started, so I have no frame of reference for what it’s like without her. So far: so good!)

    1. BadWolf*

      I would hope it would lessen at the 3 week mark, so it sucks that you’re feeling it so intensely.

      You don’t want to fill your headspace with thoughts of her, but maybe for a week or two, make a note for yourself on your alarm clock or bathroom mirror that says something like, “No more Toxic Coworker!!” Maybe you can head off a few of those morning dreads.

    2. Extra Vitamins*

      Have a mini-party to celebrate this weekend, and put up a streamer to look at Sunday evening to dispel Ethyl- related Monday dread.

    3. 14 years*

      For me, it took a little while because I’d see an old email or hear their name and just get angry. But then I’d remember that I never have to see that person ever again and I slowly relaxed. Try finding something at work that you can positively focus on like yea it’s bagel friday what a good day to be alive

    4. Schnoodle*

      Well, I left a highly toxic workplace so I’m not in the exact same situation. The first week, I was distracted with all the “newness.”

      Second week, it was like PTSD.

      But by a month in I had completely immersed in new job and no longer even thinking of OldToxicJob.

      Hopefully that will go the same for you!

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        It was like that for me when I got redeployed in a restructure and was no longer working with “Cruella, Maleficent and Ursula” – the first week I didn’t have a lot to do (due to miscommunications) and did find myself missing Exjob a lot (I did like everyone else there). After a couple of weeks, I found out Maleficent had got another job and hers had now become vacant. At one time, I’d thought I would apply for it if that happened (I’d known she was job hunting, I also knew that Cruella and Ursula were being let go at the end of the financial year) but once it was a definite possibility, I found that I no longer wanted it.

    5. AeroEngineer*

      For us, it has been a few months now and as long as no one says his name at work nor comes across some of his work. We have one younger coworker who sometimes brings him up for fun, and for those of us who were most affected, the dread comes back really fast.

      I think it just gets less and less over time, at least that is how I found it. At least I can hear the name outside of work and not get a shiver down my spine.

  74. DMouse*

    Feeling frustrated because I made a mistake at work yesterday, and then today something else went out with an error that wasn’t my mistake but I would have caught it if I followed our process and not let someone else rush me. However, in part due to learning from AAM, I think I’ve handled this better than in the past. For the mistake yesterday, although my first thought was how to keep anyone from catching it, instead I picked up the phone and called my boss, told her what had happened and how I suggest we fix it, then fixed it and moved on.

    1. Margery*

      You did the right thing by telling your boss and managing to fix it. It’s better than going home and not being able to sleep.

      We all make mistakes DMouse.

    2. gecko*

      You handled it well, but it’s still a bummer. It’s trite but making mistakes and correcting them are a huge part of the learning process…and one reason is cause it’s hard to forget the embarrassment of screwing up.

  75. Snubble*

    I did not get my sideways promotion. It went to the person whose abrupt resignation led to the position needing to be created. Bummer.

    1. Easily Amused*

      So sorry! Does that mean it went to someone who resigned and then they decided not to resign when offered this job?

      1. Snubble*

        They resigned, they left, they decided they hated their new job even more, they resigned from that, they applied for what would otherwise have been my promotion, they got it because they had more experience than me.

        I am not conviced this is a good management decision. I am also not an objective observer, because I really wanted that payrise.

  76. whendoyoufiresomeone*

    Advice: Should we fire her?

    Hey guys! Looking for advice. We have an employee who has been with the firm for 18 months, this person is in her late 20’s and was hired as an “experienced” hire. Basically, while she is not expected to know everything, the foundation and fundamentals should be there. We work in a highly competitive fast paced industry. Every hour has to be accounted for and is scrutinized, there is not a lot of room for wasting time/learning.

    Not-so-new hire has not been able to learn the job or deliver usable work. A lot of the job is listening, asking questions and then incorporating that into a report. Her latest blunder resulted in another team member working extreme over time and taking over 20K in unbillable time as a write off.

    She has received negative performance reviews and will be placed on a formal PIP (a death null in our industry) should we just pull the plug and terminate her? A team of about 20 people will not voluntarily staff her on work, so she’s unlikely to be able to improve.

    1. Leah*

      Did you flag these issues to her previously? I think firing her without putting her on PIP would be unkind, but if she was made aware of these issues she’s having, and she was informed that she’d have to improve her performance to be able to continue doing her job, then I think you can fire her, but if you haven’t sat down with her before this I’m not sure if firing her right away would be the best option.

      1. SoCalHR*

        I agree – if she has gotten clear feedback on her performance and support to change it, and hasn’t (whether an official PIP or not) then I could support termination. But if there’s any chance she would be blindsided by the fact she hasn’t been performing well, then the formal PIP should be given first.

      2. whendoyoufiresomeone*

        Her direct supervisors review her work, and make changes. Some are better about communicating what changed and why than others but at the end of the day she could read version one (that she submitted) and read final version (sent to a client) and see every word that changed if she cared to look.

        I can’t force the supervisors to mentor/train her any further and they are all unanimously done trying.

        1. SoCalHR*

          That’s a little tough, some people don’t/can’t connect the dots if their work is altered (maybe that is what is SUPPOSED to happen, maybe she thinks her work is awesome and she’s frustrated that it gets changed all the time – why don’t they let her do her job?, maybe she is just clueless). I’ve seriously encountered people like this, so unless a conversation has been had that says “you are not doing your job well, you need to improve it by doing xyz or else” then a termination could be a blindside.

        2. lisalee*

          I think this is a really sucky way to deliver feedback. I’ve worked in jobs where it was completely normal for your work product to change completely when it got to the final version–if I were this employee, just seeing the final report would not at all cue me that something was wrong. If your supervisors are not having explicit, clear conversations when things go wrong with employees, then you need to change your culture around feedback.

          That said, if everyone is flat-out refusing to work with her, then pull the plug. There’s no point in wasting everyone’s time on a formality, or putting her through a PIP if you secretly know she’ll be fired anyway.

    2. WellRed*

      I am on the side of letting her go. Its been 18 months and she’s caused a lot of hassle and expense for others. People won’t work with her. I mean, what else can you do?

      1. Boredatwork*

        Ask the internet to see if we’re being too harsh. This will be the first person we’ve fired from a large team, since the practice started (about 7 years ago)

    3. Mazzy*

      I don’t see how you can keep her and you have no sustainable plan to support here staying there. She has to go. Otherwise you have to pay two to do the work and get paid for one, and piss of clients in the interim.

    4. BRR*

      I’ve been asked a similar question about one of my coworkers who I think just isn’t capable of doing the basics of their job. I try and go by if you’re firing someone it needs to be bluntly stated first that “your work needs to improve in this way or we’re going to have let you go.”

    5. Mananana*

      Has she made any improvements since she received her negative performance review? If not, then it’s time to pull the plug. But if she has responded to the performance review, and just isn’t connecting the dots between work she’s submitted and the changes made, I can see giving her another chance AFTER making it clear to her how she’s failing and what she needs to do to improve.

    6. Artemesia*

      If she has had feedback about her performance, I would skip the PIP if you can and just terminate.

  77. AnonAnon*

    My division is having some problems around gender. Not harassment, but preferential treatment. Men just seem to get a lot more leeway than women.

    A man who has a history of poor performance reviews just got a big promotion, is failing in the role, and a crew of women are carrying the load to keep things running.

    A man who has a history of poor performance reviews and whose program is failing as a result keeps his job (and is classified and paid at a higher level than women in similar roles) because of the staff of women under him who keep things afloat.

    A junior man, who is excellent, was just promoted with no formal process when a higher level position on his team opened up; this is not our organization’s standard process, and although he is very capable he is one year out of school and stepping into a role that calls for 5-7 years of experience.

    A man with one year of AmeriCorps experience after college was hired to replace a woman with 15 years of experience in her role.

    Has anyone had experience with this kind of thing? How did you handle it?

    1. Myrin*

      What is your role in this? Are you a peon who may simply need to move on to a more equality-focused company, or do you have standing in any way to change this or seriously speak up about it?

      1. AnonAnon*

        (Female) peon.

        A year ago I had my own frustrating experience with not receiving a salary increase that I explicitly deserved, which didn’t at the time feel like it was related to gender. After a drawn-out fight that was resolved (and I did get my salary appropriately increased, albeit after a year of receiving a lower-than-standard salary in a new internal role). Now, having more perspective on these other situations, it feels like a part of a larger story.

    2. CM*

      I think this is a “push back as a group” scenario — gather your evidence, figure out a strategy for who to bring it to, and make it clear that this is a widespread problem and a pattern that a lot of people are upset about.

      I hope you get other advice but I’ll give you my perspective as a lawyer. I think the company should be aware that this is potentially a litigation/class action scenario where they could come off looking terrible and having to pay a lot of money. I wouldn’t actually threaten a lawsuit, but would do some research on your state laws and court cases about gender and employment discrimination, and make it clear that you understand your rights and the company’s responsibilities. Often Alison will suggest wording that’s something like “This could be a big liability for the company if it isn’t taken seriously.” That may sound too threat-like in this case, but you get the idea — something conveying that both your group and the company execs have a mutual stake in making sure the company succeeds, and this is something that the company needs to address to avoid liability in addition to it being the right thing to do. You could even consult with an employment lawyer about it — if you decide to do this, ask for recommendations for a lawyer who is experienced with plaintiff-side employment discrimination cases.

      1. AnonAnon*

        Something I didn’t include:

        I had coffee with a friend who is a former labor-side employment attorney (and now a union organizer) a few months ago, about a different pattern that I’d observed (men being classified at a higher level than women doing the same work). As I was not one of the affected women, she recommended that I offer my support to those women if they wanted to take any action. I did so, and they haven’t chosen to do anything at this point.

        When I invited her to coffee I described it as “need to pick your brain about employment attorneys” but that’s not the direction the conversation took. Would you recommend I revisit that?

        1. CM*

          Yes, definitely. Talk to that friend again! But first, think about what role you’re willing to take on here. Do you want to be a rabblerouser? Are you ready to take on this cause? Are there others in your organization who would be willing to back you up? If you would rather leave than try to change your workplace, no need to talk to a lawyer. If you’re willing to take action yourself, then I think it’s worth consulting with her again and asking her the question you asked here, plus: what are your options? What are some ways she has seen this play out? Does she think it’s worth talking to a lawyer, as a potential client rather than brain-picking?

    3. Extra Vitamins*

      I handled it by leaving, after some wasted years of anger. Now I hear they are hand-wringing over their turnover rates.

  78. Worried Newbie*

    While most of my coworkers at my new job – I’ve been here for less than two months while everyone else has been here for at least four years – live nearby and own cars, which they use to get to work, I live about two and a half hours away and take the bus every day to work, and we got half a day off on the days where our local soccer team was playing at the world cup. The first game was going to start at 9am our time, so HR decided our shifts would only start two hours after the game ended, at around 1pm, and I was torn. Either I’d take my regular bus, arrive at the office at 7:30am and watch the game with everyone else – which I didn’t want because I don’t care about soccer – or I’d stay at a friend’s house the day before and take a different, slightly quicker commute the next day when it was time to get to work. I told this to one of my coworkers, and he said that he was coming into the office to watch the game because, whenever he arrived at the office, he’d naturally clock in, meaning he’d get several extra hours, and that I should do it too.

    The idea was tempting. I didn’t care about soccer, but getting four hours overtime was too good to pass up, but it didn’t sound right (this is the first job where I have to manually clock in every day, and consequently the first job that pays me overtime), so when my manager came by to ask about what I was going to do at the day of the game, I asked about clocking in when I came in earlier to watch the match. He said no, like I suspected; I’m in no way obligated to come in to watch the game, therefore just because I’m in the office I shouldn’t automatically clock in. I said ok, and when I tried explaining myself to make sure this wasn’t something I thought of on my own, instead of saying “I heard someone saying something along those lines so I thought I’d ask you about it”, I said “coworker is planning on doing that, so I thought I’d ask before following his lead”.

    Manager was obviously confused and said he’d talk to coworker about it, and in the end he suggested I take the whole day off, since it wouldn’t make sense for me to spend more time out of the office than in it, and because most people in the office would be working from home anyway, meaning I’d most likely have a very low workload (I work as a local support technician), and that I could just ask that day to be comped.

    So here’s my issue: I’m certainly glad I got the day off, but I feel bad. First because, since I was the only one offered the half day off, I feel like I’m getting an advantage over my coworkers. I especially feel bad for the coworker that I rattled on, because since our manager is not the person who approves our times, there was a high chance that our senior director, which doesn’t follow our routines since he works in a completely different office from ours, wouldn’t question his overtime, and our manager wouldn’t have noticed it or heard about it had I not flagged it.

    Should I have pushed back and insisted I come like everyone else? Was it wrong of me to have flagged my coworker’s actions to my manager? I’m just worried my coworkers will feel bitter about me after these incidents.

      1. Middle School Teacher*

        Me neither. I can’t imagine how early I’d have to get up to make that work.

    2. Long Time Lurker*

      You don’t to push back unless you need/want the pay for the half day and font want to use PTO. Your co-worker can die angry if they want to since they were not only committing time card fraud but trying to convince you to do so as well (which is illegal in USA and probably everywhere.) If he gets mad at you send the awkward back to sender by asking why he was trying to get you fired.

    3. Thlayli*

      I think you should talk to your coworker and let him Know that you dropped him in it. That way you can control the conversation. It could go like this next Monday:
      “I think I might have accidentally dropped you in it on Friday. I mentioned to boss what we were talking about – clocking in before watching the match. It turns out that’s apparently against the rules which I didn’t realise. I just want to let you know I accidentally dropped you in it and make sure you know I wasn’t trying to get u in trouble at all. I didn’t realise it was against the rules at all, and I’m sure you didn’t realise that either.”

      Also, while “timecard fraud” may be a big deal in America, it’s not such a huge deal in any country I’ve ever worked in. Sure, it’s against the rules and possibly illegal, but no one would get fired or arrested over clocking in on overtime and then watching their team play in the World Cup in any place I’ve worked. If they were caught they would probably lose the overtime, and maybe get a warning, but they wouldn’t be fired or arrested for a first offence like that!

  79. DaniCalifornia*

    I knew I was forgetting a question. Have you had recruiters ask you about benefits. I don’t need health insurance because I’m on my husband’s but recently had 2 recruiters ask me if I needed it. I was caught off guard and said no. But then I was thinking, well if it were better insurance than my husbands I might want it. Or if it were cheaper for us to each have our own. I realized I don’t want the recruiter to not look at jobs for me that don’t offer insurance, but I didn’t know how to respond when asked that.

    1. SoCalHR*

      Maybe in the future you could say that it does factor into your decision regarding the compensation of a position, but that you are in a position to consider a job without benefits if the rest of the details fall in line with what you are looking for.

    2. ..Kat..*

      I am normally on my husband’s insurance. I work in a hospital in the USA, which are notorious for expensive health insurance. However, my husband and I have needed to be on my insurance occasionally – when he is transitioning between jobs.

      As a nurse, I am aware that life can go horribly wrong, i.e., I could end up being the sole support and insurance provider for my husband and I. So I want health insurance options at my job.

      Just something to think about.

  80. Violaine*

    Today’s my last day at my job, and I’m heading off to a new city and some limbo/downtime while waiting for background checks to happen for prospective job. So, we’ll see. I have a question to ask about that process but I may email Alison instead. It could be a good topic. I just need to dig in the archives first and see if it’s been asked yet.

    Have a good weekend, everyone!

  81. Nancy*

    I looked through past threads, but couldn’t find anything that could really answer my question. I’ll be at my job for a year in Sept. Though, apparently we do yearly reviews around July (non-profit fiscal). I had asked about reviews and salary raises when I applied and they said they did yearly reviews and tried their best to compensate each year. When I negotiated there was a range they offered and I asked for the full range because of my experience, skills, and education. They offered me about $1,000 under that range because they though I would have a learning curve with their organization. They did offer more PTO and I accepted at that level. I’ve been not only feeling that I’m doing pretty well for a first year in a new job, but I’ve gotten good feed back from my direct report and some of the “old hats” in the organization. I am hoping and almost sure, they might offer me the $1,000 during my review. Because its only my first year, should I accept humbly and wait for more time and experience to consider asking for more?

    I know the rule is that you base things on experience, skills and education. What you can bring to the company and not what your personal finances are. I’m definitely doing my job, but haven’t made any BIG contributions, so I think if they offer anything, I should take it and appreciate it. But I also wonder if I should push just a little because women do tend to underestimate. I’m considering asking if that is final and there is not room to go higher, which I think is respectful of asking without directly throwing out a number. I also want to ask if there is a cap for my position. (something I missed in the interview).

    In all honesty, I got stuck in a dead end job before this and I really should be at a much higher level in my career and salary at this point (and that is for skills etc. in my market). However, because I let myself stay in the dead end for so long I’ve put myself in the lower ends of salaries. That’s my fault in the long run, but it makes it really hard when negotiating.

    Do you think I have a good plan?

    1. Tara S.*

      If you brought up the extra $1,000 during the hiring process, I don’t think it hurts to ask about it once you get your performance review. Not demand it, obviously, but sort of framing it as “you offered me what I asked for minus $1,000 when I was hired because of the learning curve. Since my review was excellent and I am no longer working on a learning curve, would it be possible to get that $1,000 now?” Maybe they say no, maybe your calculated raise is already more than $1,000 anyway. But I don’t feel like it would be totally out of line, since its already been part of previous conversations.

      1. Nancy*

        I’m hoping for at least the $1,000. I’m not planning on anything but that. If I don’t get it, I won’t be devastated. But if I don’t get anything this year, I want to make sure that I’m not yet falling into a pit of dead end and putting myself further behind on the payscale.

        Thank you.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      You might ask about how annual increases usually work. In my nonprofit experience, everyone generally gets a set percentage increase at annual review time, with some variation based on performance. In that context, you’d seem a little tone-deaf asking for $1,000, just because that’s not how it goes. If average performers get 2% and excellent performers get 3%, you would pitch yourself as an excellent performer to get the higher percentage.

    3. ..Kat..*

      If based on your skills, experience, and market rates you should be making more, ask for more at your review period. Back it up with examples of the value you provide. And, of course, market rates for this value.

  82. Not my normal name*

    I’ve debated about posting this but it’s information I wish I would have had before:

    Staying in my position, with a terrible, manipulative, and narcissistic (actually diagnosed) boss has had real and damaging impacts on my career. Their refusal to promote me (because it would require them to do some paperwork) has truly shaped what jobs are available to me now (a lot less than should be). Their reframing of any professional development or extra projects they don’t like as ‘bullshit’ also decreases that number as well. It has damaged my thinking on work relationships, it has caused me more stress and anxiety than I could ever even imagine.

    Please, if you’re young in your career and come to the realization that your boss is that horrible boss like mine, get out when you can for the sake of your future and your mental health. Start today if you can. I’m in year 2 of trying to get out (had to finish a degree first) – it takes time but you are way worth not living this life. And if need, please see a therapist to get your head straight about what is and is not acceptable in the work place. EAP is fabulous.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Good luck moving on. Good for you realizing that this situation is bad and taking steps to improve the situation. And congratulations on your degree!

  83. Seltzer Fan*

    I have an interview next week that I’m very excited about—been through a phone interview and a very thorough writing/editing exercise, and I think we’re entering the final rounds!

    I’ll be speaking with three people: the COO, the editor-in-chief, and the assistant editor who would be reporting to me. I feel pretty well-equipped in preparing for the first two, but has anyone interviewed with their potential direct reports before—or interviewed candidates for their incoming manager? Would love any advice on how to prep for that.

    This would also be my first management role—I’ve managed plenty of freelancers in the last few years but have not yet had actual, permanent staff report to me. I’ve been looking through lots of Alison’s advice for new managers, but would be very appreciative for any thoughts on how to approach that change, and especially speak about approaching it in an interview.

  84. Nervous Accountant*

    So um, less angry now and more genuinely curious.

    How do you know when your team respects you?

    I have seen it in my company that ppl joke around w their managers etc. but have respect for them.

    2 incidents made me wonder if no one respects me. I now realize that I’m not the problem, they were.

    I don’t thjnk this anymore (wrote this in the earlier post above) but was curious how it generally is/should be.

    1. beanie beans*

      I’m a big proponent for asking for feedback. But only if you are prepared to hear it (I think Alison had a post on it in the past). If managers really want to know where they can improve and where they stand with their staff, the best way to find out is to ask!

    2. Friday afternoon fever*

      Generally—if they’re confident in your work (what you do for them and others), listen to your input (even if they don’t always take it), and (if part of your respective roles) do what you assign to them

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        I struggle with anxiety a lot and it helps me to contrast our entire work history together against the one or two one-off incidents that are making me anxious

  85. Formerly Arlington*

    My department is going through a reorg, and it’s honestly one of the most emotionally draining and stressful and deflating things I’ve ever experienced. I have to reapply for my job and there are only two spots left for the 4 people on my team. Any coping suggestions, lights at the end of the tunnel, anything?

    1. A Nickname for AAM*

      Since you’ve updated your resume and did all the work to apply, put yourself out there and see if you get something better!

      1. Artemesia*

        Look now to get out — often a re-org dumps a lot of people into a small market and those who see the handwriting and search early on and leave get the good jobs. I went through a merger and saw that some of the better people got out early and did well and some who road it on down, were left with few options.

  86. Elegance*

    Any recommendations for free listserv/group email systems? I organize a fairly large, informal networking group and we need to send group emails. It’s too cumbersome to try and maintain a static list to reply-all, and not everyone is on Facebook so a group there won’t work. I’m using Google Groups, but it’s such a pain to send individual invitations for people to join*, so I’d love to hear if there’s something else out there.

    *many people don’t have google accounts or want these emails to go to their office email, so asking them to use the “join” feature doesn’t work.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      You can create groups in Outlook as well. I’ve used those previously for contractor lists so I only had to email one contact instead of 53.

      1. Elegance*

        Everyone in the group needs to be able to use the email list, not just me, so I don’t think that would work. We’re spread across many institutions and email platforms.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          IIRC I could share that group with coworkers, but I don’t remember if I had to reshare if any changes were made to the group…I don’t think I did, but I’m not totally sure. It may have technically been a function of MS Exchange rather than Outlook as well.

          Hopefully there’s something out there that makes this easier for you! Having a constantly shifting large group to email is a pain.

  87. Vent to me*

    Please vent to me here about the little stuff (or anything really) your coworkers do that you can’t stand…but can’t call out either. I’ll start:

    -New coworker (front desk) and lazy coworker have decided leaving earlier and earlier is cool. We close the office at 5pm. They’ll start gathering up their stuff earlier and earlier and leaving 3, 5, 8 mins early. If this was normal office where we don’t interact with clients all day long I absolutely wouldn’t care. But we do. And sometimes yes the phone does ring at 4:50pm. And those two are supposed to be the first to answer calls. Or someone tries to walk in knowing we close at 5 and they’ve already shut the door early. It’s embarrassing apologizing to the client. Also to note, lazy coworker’s family member is his supervisor and now works in a different building so they can’t physically see them leave early. Lazy coworker never did this while supervisor/family member worked in our office.

    -Lazy coworker comes in smelling like smoke after lunch break and we’re in a small open office. It permeates our area and makes me cough more.

    -Lazy coworker also has a SO that comes in and hangs out randomly throughout the day.

    1. SoCalHR*

      I’m not sure any of those things really classify as “little annoying things” except for maybe the smoke thing, that’s a little nebulous to address.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Coworker clips her fingernails at her desk. I can’t cope, I have to go find somewhere else to work. :(
      Other coworker loudly slurps his drink. I can cope, but it’s still annoying.

      1. Laaaaaaddddyyyy of the Morrnnninggg*

        Our interns this summer are so messy. They don’t push in chairs in the break room, they abandon soaking dishes in the sink (over the drains), they leave coffee spills, and one girl takes eight waters from the fridge every morning and puts them all on her desk to drink that day. We have two high-end, filtered water dispensers available and she refuses to use them. And now other interns are doing the same. I’m ordering more waters than I ever have in the past, and stocking them in the fridge three times a day to keep up with these kids!

        2. WellRed*

          Put less water in the fridge. Also, I never find water dispensers to have cold enough water. Could that be the problem?

        3. AnotherJill*

          Why cater to them? I’d stock a reasonable amount of water in the fridge per day and if it runs out, it runs out.

        4. The New Wanderer*

          Yeah, that’s silly. Your company is paying for both filtered water and bottled water. Maybe institute a policy that bottled water is for guests only or something. But I would definitely not enable that wasteful habit. If the filtered water doesn’t get cold enough, the interns (or anyone) can fill an empty water bottle and put it in the fridge for an hour or whatever.

        5. Artemesia*

          If you have filtered water available maybe time to limit waters to clients and certainly limit interns to no more than one a day.

    3. StellaBella*

      Yikes. Here’s mine:
      I worked in my last role in a small team in an open office – about a dozen people and some would only be there part time so it was not always full. But every day – like literally every day – the admin/HR person would come in early but take extra long lunches, or deal with her kids, or leave early or go to a dentist or gym or doctor, or go next door to her husband’s office for a break, or run to the post office, or do some other errand not related to work (sometimes the post office was – but we had one in the building…). Every other day I had to help her with logging in, doing some finance stuff, sorting out emails, or finding a file (I worked there a year longer than she did only). I got really upset after about 6 months of this … and ended up leaving the firm….after getting told I would have to do some of her duties…. because this admin/HR person had advocated for a paid leave policy for us, when we ended up on sick leave – then a month later she is on medical leave ‘expected to go on for 3 months’ because of her stress. What stress? She never worked!

    4. Tara S.*

      If you had a negative “customer” interaction because they weren’t there to do their jobs, I do think it rises to the level of mentioning it. Maybe just directly to them (sometimes that gets people to straighten up), but also to a manager if it keeps happening after that.

    5. Persimmons*

      One guy snaps his fingers incredibly loudly while walking, like he needs a metronome to keep track of what leg he’s on. Maybe he used to be in marching band? I kinda want to put oven mitts on him to see if he falls over.

    6. MechanicalPencil*

      One coworker is currently on hold with someone. On speaker. So I am hearing “all customer service representatives are currently busy. Please continue to hold…” every 30 seconds. For about 10 minutes. It is driving. me. mad.

    7. Ann*

      Coworker is really slow at her job. Needs a lot of hand holding and is high maintenance. She waltzes into the office anywhere between 9-11 am. She lacks basic computer skills. Yet, Boss keeps her on.

    8. Chaordic One*

      I have a new supervisor who questions everything I do. “Why do you do X?” I explain things to her, but then she follows up with another question, “How did you know that Z was the answer?” Um, X + Y = Z. She just doesn’t connect the dots. She’s been working in a related department for more than 20 years, so I’m kind of surprised she doesn’t have more of an idea of what I do in my position. I guess I know why she held her previous position for 20 years.

  88. Phryne Fisher*

    My problem involves newcomers, employee loyalty, bad attitudes.. essentially, a White-House-like environment.

    Characters:
    – Gabriel: the team’s manager, a first-time manager and was promoted to this position ~1 year ago.
    – Sam: transferred to this team three weeks ago, now reports to Gabriel.
    – Me: in the same role as Sam, also reports to Gabriel.

    Our team’s metrics were green when Gabriel became our manager and since then have been steadily decreasing. We are now in the red.

    A team member left a couple of months ago. Gabriel could either hire an external candidate or have Sam, who already worked on a team like ours, but for a different division. Ultimately, Sam was moved to our team.

    Sam has been confiding in me.. he is under the impression that he was sent here by higher-ups to turn this team around. Sam believes Gabriel acts too much like a friend and does not effectively lead the team. Gabriel has been given a burndown plan to improve our metrics, but Sam thinks that Gabriel grossly misunderstands how the burndown works and because of this the burndown will ultimately fail.

    According to Sam, Gabriel is on the chopping block; the team is in a lot of trouble as well. Sam says higher-ups have given Gabriel until end of July to get our metrics to green otherwise the higher-ups will fire Gabriel and take over. However, Gabriel has only communicated to us that we need to try our best; Gabriel has not given me the impression that this team is in hot water.

    Sam wants to execute the burndown his way, which he believes is the right way, and wants me to be on board. He doesn’t care of Gabriel is standing in his way.

    Do I talk to Gabriel about what Sam has said to me? Do I talk to Sam?

    My loyalty lies with this team and this team’s goal, which is to improve our metrics.

    1. CynicallySweet7*

      Do you know if Sam has talked to Gabriel about his interpretation of the burn down plan at all?

      1. Phryne Fisher*

        Sam says he has tried explaining it to Gabriel, but Gabriel still doesn’t get it.

        1. CynicallySweet7*

          Is there anyone higher up you could discreetly talk to who could maybe confirm that reason Sam’s saying he was brought in. Because that definitely matters here. You’ve either got someone going rogue, or who was brought in to manage up, and those are very different circumstances.

          1. Phryne Fisher*

            Thanks. This may be my best option. I feel apprehensive because I feel like this drama is unnecessary and I am stirring the pot.

            1. CynicallySweet7*

              I mean the pots going to get stirred either way, and on a team that small there’s no way you’re not going to get caught up with it. My suggestion is to figure out the lay of the land before you make any kind of decision…And maybe, just in case, do a little bit of job searching.

          2. Earthwalker*

            This. I knew such a Sam and he was “gone rogue.” He said he was brought in as a fixer on the fast track to senior management and ordered people around based on his soon-to-be-in-charge authority. He turned out to be just another peer who used his tall tales to excuse drama and bullying, whose bragging far exceeded his actual skill. That’s not to say that this Sam’s story isn’t true, just to suggest that it’s risky to act on his story without significant evidence.

    2. Phryne Fisher*

      Also, I’m not sure if it matters, but Gabriel is fairly young (20s) while Sam is older (50s).

    3. CM*

      So… if Sam is right and your metrics don’t improve in a month, Gabriel is out, right?
      And Gabriel seems to have caused your crappy metrics.
      So isn’t it better if Gabriel is out? Why not wait a month and then if Sam’s plan is better, start executing that? Why wouldn’t Sam prefer to have that happen?

      1. Phryne Fisher*

        I like Gabriel as a person and feel like I should be doing what I can to help him succeed as a manager. I’m not sure if I can 100% believe everything Sam says.. he may be just out to take Gabriel down.

    4. Tara S.*

      I would try and remove yourself from Sam’s scheming. If Sam complains about Gabriel, tell him your busy and need to work. If he goes on about the climate of your workplace and how Gabriel is in hot water, let him know that yeah, he already said that, and you need to get back to work. If Sam tries to rope you into doing things differently than Gabriel directed, fob him off, say that you feel more comfortable following the official plan until Gabriel directs otherwise, and if Sam wants to see changes in procedure he should take it up with Gabriel. Don’t debate Sam, don’t agree with him about Gabriel, just acknowledge and move on. If Gabriel or Sam are going to sink themselves, let them do it themselves, and try to just do your job the best you can. So sorry you’re having to deal with all this drama!

  89. CynicallySweet7*

    Do people not think about their tone in e-mails?

    I’m legit wondering this. I’ve been getting a lot of requests that come off as very rude, but I’m wondering if I just think more about my e-mail tone because I have to for a lot of my e-mails.

    For example: I got one this morning that said: Why this has been entered wrong into [database]. It should be 25?

    This came with an attached report that backed up the original entry and the answer ended up being b/c I can’t ESP the wrong way you’ve decided to fill out forms.

    I’m covering for someone this week and on this project in particular no one fills out the forms right (or the same) and then people get snippy when I don’t know how they do it. But I’m also wondering if I’m taking it to personally. This one annoyed me most b/c of history, but people have been coming off as very entitled about these, and it is true that I’m more of a stickler for procedure than the person I’m covering, but the tone in these e-mails are really starting to get to me (Like I’m starting to feel dumb for not being a mind reader)…any thoughts?

    1. Peaches*

      I’m totally with ya. It blows my mind how rude people can be in emails (in fact, my coworker and I were just talking about this yesterday). I’m not sure if it’s A. The person not realizing how curt their tone comes across in email, or B. The person is arrogant and thinks the person their emailing is a peon compared to them self, and doesn’t care to be friendly. I always make a point of being polite in emails, even if the person I’m emailing has done something to irritate me.

        1. CynicallySweet7*

          Lol. I literal do that all the time on this site! Based on what I know of the people I work with I generally think they just don’t realize it, but damn is it annoying!

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Oooh, this bugs me too. Someone higher-up in my company was kind of snarky when asking for something to be corrected and it made me cringe. I think tone is really important in emails, as is clarity, and most people are served better by giving someone the benefit of the doubt: “The number in Cell A23 was entered incorrectly– it should be 25,” is all anyone needs. Not “WHY DID YOU DO THIS?” which puts people (me) on the defensive immediately.

      1. CynicallySweet7*

        Right?! Like I make a typo fine, but it’s also annoying because she was snarky and if she had taken 2 seconds to look at what was entered vs sent it would have been pretty obvious to her. Like, my answer was, I did this b/c that’s what the report said, but yeah totally back up all the way! And honestly the whole exchange ended up being much tenser than it had to be because of how she brought it up

      2. BRR*

        I was given feedback by my manager that an email like your first quote was not nice enough. Apparently my coworker (who makes tons of mistakes) is very sensitive to feedback. It was suggested to go with something like “hey I noticed this. I thought it should be this because of this. Would you be able to look into this?” Also guess who has a conflict-averse manager and a coworker who need to be let go?

        To answer the original question thought, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt (even when their email is worded very poorly). I received an email this week that felt very hostile and someone else confirmed this. Even thought I suck at letting things go I’ve somehow learned to let this go.

    3. Thlayli*

      Different cultures have different expectations of manners. The email you describe doesn’t sound rude to me in the slightest.

      I read somewhere that someone looked into this once and found that Americans, English and Germans all have different perceptions of an email that says “I need this by Friday”. Some cultures perceive that as a perfectly neutral and professional way to deliver the info, others perceive it as rude. I am in the former category – if you need something by Friday wtf is wrong with just saying that? It sounds like you fall into the latter category and would interpret that as rude unless “please” or something was tacked on.

      It’s important to remember that other people’s perception of what is polite is not necessarily the same as yours. Unless you have other evidence that people are being rude to you intentionally, matter-of-fact emails aren’t proof of rudeness.

  90. HigherEdAnon*

    I’m here on the open thread mostly to vent, but if anyone sees an area in this story where they can give me some advice it would probably be helpful. I’ve had a week at my job and I’m just very frustrated. I work for a university in a student-facing role. I would say being an “excellent” employee in our field is based on how you support students. Any other “special skills” you bring to the table are extras, but not essential requirements. We have a new employee in our office named Becky. Becky has worked in the field for numerous years. She’s perfectly fine at her job, but I haven’t witnessed her do anything exceptional or advocate for a student yet (she’s actually complained about key elements of her job to another one of my coworkers). She’s apparently very creative and has really good skills in the Microsoft Office products (like advanced Excel skills). She has started making very creative PowerPoints and spreadsheets. Don’t get me wrong, this is great. Impressive even. But also not an essential component of her job.

    My boss has started gloating about how wonderful her spreadsheets and PowerPoints are. It comes up during our meetings and during happy hours. I’m starting to get annoyed, and some of my coworkers are too. Because the times when someone goes above and beyond for a student don’t get recognized in the same way. We also have a full time tech person in our office who has the same skills in these programs that she does, and they’ve never been asked to create things like his for us or recognized for their skills. I’m guessing my boss is just going out of his way to make Becky feel appreciated since she’s new, but it’s starting to make the rest of us feel uncomfortable and unappreciated.

    A lot of other things have happened that I can’t get into right now (because it would be a novel) that have just made me feel really unappreciated. But for some reason this week, this was the tip of the iceberg. I’ve been working so hard to advocate for my students, but I don’t get the same recognition that a PowerPoint does? I’m just ready to move on. It just seems like our offices priorities are out of whack if this is what gets recognition instead of the efforts to help our students be successful. I don’t really know what to do anymore.

    1. CynicallySweet7*

      I mean, I can’t know if this is a dumb question without knowing more about your boss, but have you tried talking to him about any of this?

      1. HigherEdAnon*

        It’s not a dumb question. I know another coworker is planning to bring it up with him. This coworker is actually more bothered by it than I am. I’m going to wait and see how that goes before I bring it up to him.

    2. WellRed*

      Huh. never thought I’d see creative used in conjunction with spreadsheets or powerpoint.
      I think, in the moment, the boss is talking about her Louvre-ready latest power point, I’d be tempted to respond with a compliment for a coworker about how they did X for a student.

      1. HigherEdAnon*

        I should clarify, her spreadsheets are more tech savvy than creative. She uses programs for her PowerPoints that help dress them up (i.e. canva, prezi, etc). In our field where most people don’t have creative skills these programs are used commonly (I’ve never seen someone applaud them as much as my boss is though). She is someone who does a lot of gimmicky things like this though. She put quotes from past employers and coworkers in her cover letter about how great she is (think like yelp reviews). And in her interview presentation (which was a prezi) she inserted herself into our university tag line at the end (this isn’t ours, but if it was “Broncos Make a Difference” she put “Becky Makes a Difference for Broncos”). As an avid reader of AAM, I rolled my eyes really hard over these things. My boss ate this up obviously.

        But this is a good idea. I’ll try to just watch out for when my coworkers do awesome things so I have examples ready to go in meetings. Thanks for the tip!

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Hmm. I think this is a symptom that your boss just likes flashy things and finds it easy to compliment them (or be swayed, I’d also be eye-rolling at the interview stuff). I suppose you and colleagues could try to make the substantive things more flashy to get his attention, as a short term solution. But yeah, redirecting the conversation to the more meaningful student support achievements is good and will hopefully lead to coworker reciprocation so it really does become about celebrating that hard work, not tech skillz.

    3. Anon today*

      Putting on my cynical professor mortarboard for this: because dealing with students never has, is not, and likely never will received the respect or pay it deserves. I’m damn good at teaching but it doesn’t matter how many good reviews I get from students or how much time I spend prepping for class, accolades go to faculty who publish or do publicly recognized research or do something in the community that gets attention. The only way for me to get a raise is to move up the academic ranks (department chair, dean) which would pay me more for teaching less.
      Administration? The more student contact, the lower the pay. Athletics is the exception, but coaches and athletic directors only deals with a few students.
      Kudos for doing your best for students for an anonymous stranger on the internet.

      1. HigherEdAnon*

        You’re preaching to the choir here! Also, kudos to you from an anonymous staff member for being a dedicated educator!

        I’m in an all day staff meeting right now and Becky’s PowerPoint skills came up AGAIN! Unfortunately I couldn’t use the strategy someone mentioned above of deflecting to an actual accomplishment of a coworker (because it would have been weird in context), so instead I sent a snarky message to my coworker. Maybe I’ll have the chance before this meeting is over.

        We’re in the midst of orientation season right now, and I’ve been making sure every student who changes their major into our program that day has all their prerequisite courses in their schedule where they need them before they meet with me (I have to bug the registrar in order to accomplish this, I’m sure they love me). With the way our curriculum flows, this affects time to graduation. But I also don’t need to do this. I could send the students to the enrollment lab and let them fend for themselves. But unfortunately this isn’t as flashy as a PowerPoint. Anyway, I’ll step off my soap box…

  91. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

    I need to know if I am being out of touch here, or if my feelings are legitimate.

    The scenario here is that at my job, once you have been here for 1 year, you become eligible for quarterly incentive checks. The incentive is based off of the company’s income for that quarter. You receive a check no matter what department you are in–even if you are not in sales or in a position that directly generates income. My year anniversary was on Tuesday (6/26), and I was told that because my anniversary date was so late in the quarter, that I will not receive an incentive check until October. I am somewhat irritated by this news. My first reason for being irritated is purely selfish–we are in the midst of a huge sales promotion, and the incentive check for this quarter will be huge. But, I guess what pushes me even further over the edge is that my position is one that is directly involved with our sales promotion. I have a counterpart that gets the sales started (she gets paid differently than me and gets monthly incentive for all the sales), and I do the closings/administrative work for the sales. She is the most unorganized person that I have ever met, and my job has become more than just closing and admin work, as I usually have to comb back through her work and correct all of her errors. I guess that I just feel like I have worked really hard and I’m really disappointed that I won’t see any compensation for the sales that I have worked so hard on, just because I got hired at the end of the quarter last year. My husband thinks I should say something to my boss, but I don’t know that that would be appropriate. Any thoughts?

    1. SoCalHR*

      This is where explanation of the incentives when you are first hired would be helpful. But looking just at these details, if your anniversary date is 6/26, and the incentives cover April-June, then it makes sense – you’re not getting shorted a full quarter of incentives, you’re getting ‘shorted’ 5 days of it, since you don’t EARN the incentives until AFTER one year. My interpretations, could be wrong. But they should have explained to you up front that you actually get the incentives in the quarter following your anniverrsary date.

    2. CynicallySweet7*

      Depends. When does your quarter end? What’s your boss like?
      Mine ends in June, which if your one year is June 26th that’s pretty late in the quarter and might be something I’d be willing to swallow. That being said if you’ve got a pretty good manager it won’t hurt to bring up in a ‘If the answers no, ok, but I wanted to see if it would be possible…’ type of way

    3. CM*

      I could see it going both ways.

      Is there a written policy about this? If so, maybe you could point to that. I would want to know if they take the same position with everybody, or if it’s arbitrary and other people might get the incentive but your boss decided that you wouldn’t.

    4. Nacho*

      I can see why you’re unhappy, but if your quarters are like mine and and end 4 days after your anniversary, I also don’t think it would be super fair to people who got hired earlier in the quarter if latecomers like you got the full check, since you’ve really only worked there 3 quarters and 4 days.

      You can bring up your counterpart’s errors to your boss with a tone of “she’s making my work harder, can someone please help her?” but don’t bring up compensation, because that’s not likely to change.

    5. Bex*

      First, I think you should talk to your manager about the quality of your coworker’s work since it’s adding to your workload and causing resentment. If you are correcting her errors regularly, then your boss might not realize it’s an issue.

      Second, it sounds like you become eligible AFTER one year of service. If that’s the case, you would have only had 5 “eligible” days this quarter. IMO, it makes sense that you’d start getting the incentive next quarter.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      Personally I’d want clarification about where the cutoff date is in the quarter, after which the person is not eligible for the incentive. That might help (and should have been explained up front), in that you might not have *just* missed it but weren’t eligible even if you’d been hired June 1 or something.

      Otherwise, I think the most you could ask for is a pro-rated incentive bonus for the 4 or 5 days this quarter that you are eligible. To me that seems like the most fair option (because it is how our annual bonus worked), but I’m guessing that if they did that you’d already know about it.

    7. sheep jump death match*

      Wow, surprised at the other responses. I think that if the policy is that you get quarterly checks after your anniversary date, then you are absolutely eligible. The anniversary is the anniversary.

      If what they MEANT was that employees are eligible starting in the FIRST FULL QUARTER after their anniversary, then that’s what they should have written. But if you take that angel, I suspect they will just change the written policy and label you a trouble-maker besides.

      This is why companies should pay lawyers to write their policies.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah it seems to me like you should be eligible. First place to look would be whatever you signed when you started.

  92. StellaBella*

    Does anyone here do freelance statistical analysis or freelance scientific paper editing by chance? If so, can you share info on who you work for (globally, not just USA)? I am aware of several of the freelancer websites but want to know more about your experiences if you have them in these two fields….thx!!

    1. Kraken Wants OUT!*

      I’d like to know some of the webpages too! My current clients I get through a translator friend in their country. I’m looking at the agencies(?) recommended by Springer. I was looking at Cactus Communication but their glassdoor reviews make the sound sketchy.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve been looking into this too (editing), but I’ve also seen very disappointing reviews of companies that do this – low pay, long hours, difficult methods of assigning work that make it hard to get papers to work on in the first place. However, the companies I’ve seen do appear to be global and not US-specific (Cactus and Research Square are the names I remember, but the other similar companies post jobs on Glassdoor, Indeed, and LinkedIn if you search for “editing” and related keywords).

    3. AcademiaNut*

      I have done a bit, but completely by chance. I have no training in editing, but I’m a native speaker with decent writing skills, and a subject expert, and I’m literally one of less than ten people in the country who are native English speaking field experts. I’ve been approached occasionally to, basically, proofread and correct documents written (or translated) by non native speakers, for pay.

      It’s an area that there is definitely demand for in my field (I work in a STEM research environment overseas). Mostly it’s people writing scientific papers who are proficient, but not native speakers, who need someone to clean up the prepositions, articles and verb tenses. However, there’s a major barrier when it comes to paying for these services. Individual researchers can spend grant money on editing, but the maximum rates they can pay are set are so low that they can’t hire a professional editor to do it. Plus, if the editor isn’t a subject expert, it will be a much slower process, as there’s a lot of technical terminology involved.

  94. Peaches*

    I posted last week and the week before about talking to my manager about transitioning into a new role (more admin, less sales support). When I met with my boss last week, he just kept saying “stick with me until the end of the year, I promise it will get better”, even though I tried to make it clear I did NOT want to be convinced to stay in my current role, but to be told there would be opportunity for me to move. The best he did was mention that we could EVENTUALLY move me into a new role if I REALLY hated my current role (I do, btw, but I guess maybe I didn’t express that enough).

    Anyway, a possible blessing happened yesterday. My supervisor (who I technically report to, but is brand new, so I didn’t include him in my original meeting), pulled me into his office about a potential role that sounds perfect for me (essentially doing a lot of clerical work for our sales reps so they can spend more time in the field). He had no idea that I had talked to my boss about wanting to move roles anyway, but he really took the time to listen to my concerns with my current role, and encouraged me to tell him the type of work I would want to do. He said it may take some shifting around of duties to pass some of my current duties on to others, but I’m hopeful based on my conversation with him that he’s really going to try to make this work for me.

  95. AwkwardInLA*

    This is awkward, but here goes my latest pondering… If this were to be a featured post, the title would be: “My Boss is Starving Herself and On a High Horse About It.”

    Some background: I work on a small team of 3. My boss has recently begun to make healthier choices in her eating (eliminating carbs and high-calorie foods) and going to the gym with the clear purpose of trying to lose weight (if it matters, which it doesn’t, she has a petite athletic/curvy build). Good for her- none of anyone’s business. The thing is, she’s become VERY vocal and boastful about it to the rest of the office. Some lines (directly quoted) are:

    “I’ve been exercising like a maniac and barely eating.”
    “I look like a whale next to all of you.” (far from true because I weigh more than she does)
    “I don’t eat anymore”
    “I get drunk so easily now because I’m not eating”
    “I’m on a starvation diet”
    “I have 15 more to go”
    “We should all start a healthy eating club and vow only to eat vegetables and proteins, and keep nothing else in the fridge.”
    “Did you work out this morning?” (Not always to me directly, but I have heard her ask it to other colleagues.)
    “As a divorced, single woman in her late 30s, I have nothing else going for me anyway.”

    We all can see she’s lost weight and our office manager has been the only one to make concerning comments. Her clothes are falling off of her. Now, before you all ream me out and tell me it’s none of my business and to just focus on work, point taken. My annoyance with this stems from a few things: 1. I’m a recovering bulimic/anorexic (but do not discuss this openly with anyone because frankly I’m not proud of all the hurt it caused others/myself years ago and it triggers my own ongoing food issues). 2. We work in healthcare. As a team director, she should know better than to make comments that could come across as insensitive toward people who may have (or know someone who have) eating disorders or other related “issues.” 3. Well, it’s concerning for obvious reasons.

    Question is… Do I ignore it, go about my day, and let my annoyance fester since I know my past issues are not her problem? Otherwise, is there any appropriate “hey, cut that out- some people actually die from starving themselves” dialogue? Or do I go the passive-aggressive route and say, “Yes, you’ve mentioned it several hundred times. Now, about project X… can I get your thoughts?” Or, is there opportunity for the infamous anonymous note?

    And yes, I see a therapist. Due to scheduling conflicts, it’s been a few weeks since my last session, but I do plan on bringing this up. Just wondering if there’s at all a way to address it at office first.

    Thanks!

    1. CM*

      You are annoyed, but you are also concerned. So maybe you could communicate that concern while trying to stifle the annoyance. When she brags about not having eaten all day, you could say things like: I’m worried about you. Are you okay? I hope you’re taking care of yourself.

    2. CynicallySweet7*

      These sound a lot like the comments a friend with anorexia used to make (which may make this more of an HR thing, but I’m not sure about that at all). You could try telling her that it makes you uncomfertable to hear that stuff, or go the concerned route like CM suggested. Also, most people with body dis-morphia get off on comments about how good they look/how much weight they’ve lost, so maybe refusing to feed into that would work (and I realize you probably knew that, but thought the suggestion might help). I mostly got on here to give you one piece of advice which is DO NOT tell her about your past struggles. My friend ended up having to quit a job after she recovered b/c after sharing her own past issues with a new boss – she was trying to help – they then tried to make her their “diet buddy”. I’m not saying that’ll definitely happen, but just a heads up that it could, and she ended up having to quit and join an extra support group b/c of it.

      1. Tara S.*

        Both of these are good suggestions. I know you are concerned about her, but I don’t think it’s your place to try and address her disordered eating. What you can address is the comments she’s making in the office. Something like, “Hey, could we not do so much body/diet talk? It’s not the kind of thing I like to talk about at work.” You don’t need to explain why, but communicating that it’s not a great topic for work could hopefully get her to cut down on those comments. Also/or, maybe a quick “Yikes!” with a frown/concerned face when she makes comments like “I’m not eating,” just negatively reacting to those kind of comments to hold the baseline that they are not normal.

        1. Tara S.*

          Also, ah, I don’t have the link, but there is a great comment somewhere on this website from a person trained to deal with domestic violence situations on what to do when you think/know your coworker is in an abusive situation. I think it would translate here as far as “how to react to your coworker’s bad non-work situation they are in denial about.” Does anyone have a link? Alison linked to it once…

          1. CynicallySweet7*

            Do you remember the question it was linked to? Like maybe the one where the employee set up one of her co-workers so she could talk to the police ?

            1. ..Kat..*

              Marie was a wise and brave person for coming forward and explaining all of this. Many thanks to her and I hope she is doing well.

    3. DaniCalifornia*

      I think if you speak with her (if you are able to) it should be about your second point only. I think you could say “Glad you enjoying nutrition and exercise. We should be careful to limit that talk because we don’t know who is dealing with different issues.”

      I think in the moment silence or changing the subject can sometimes speak more than a response. At the most a small ‘Mm. So about project X’ Perhaps if she doesn’t get reactions she will eventually bore even herself?

    4. Mistressfluffybutt*

      Man that sounds really annoying! As someone with ED issues myself I can see the potential red flags as well and it’s sad but you can’t really help with her possible ED. Somethings I would recommend saying (and this may not work!)

      “Hey, I’m so happy that you are making better choices but can we please avoid food talk at work?” If she asks why just say something like “There are lot people who can be bothered by it.” Alison has some good scripts on this.

      Another good tactic is redirection. Change the subject every time she brings it up.

      If you are close you can tell her that you noticed that she is being really down herself lately and is she ok? But you have to be close for that to worl

    5. Thlayli*

      That’s really scary. Particularly the bit where she says she looks like a whale and the but where she refers to just eating veg and protein as a “healthy” diet – it really is not!

      Could you go to her boss with your concerns? It sounds like Body Dysmorphic Disorder / Amorexia to me. It would be a kindness to her to have some sort of intervention

  96. Brownie*

    When given a task by my boss I always ask for clarification around what they want. This is because I don’t know what they want when they say “make a teapot”. Okay, yes, they want a teapot, but there’s hundreds of different teapots ranging in styles, colors, size, and so on which I could make. I might be able to narrow it down a little, but without more information I can’t make the teapot they want. My previous boss recognized this and was the best boss ever because she understood that for me to produce what she actually wanted she needed to tell me “a teapot in the Japanese style for green tea, sized for tea for 4 people, colored white with green accents.”

    My current boss views my asking for clarification of what kind of teapot he wants as me taking my job too seriously and has told me to “lighten up” and just give him a teapot, often with comments about how he shouldn’t have to tell me my job. But when he was new (a few months ago) I did make teapots at his request without asking for clarification and he ended up chucking my teapots in the bin and making them again himself because mine didn’t match what he wanted.

    My boss isn’t going to change. He’s not a manager, he’s come up from the technical side and doesn’t have the people management skills that a manager needs and doesn’t seem interested in learning those skills. So I have to deal with this myself and the only things I can think of to do are either manage up or stop caring that he throws my work in the trash in favor of creating his own. The problem with the latter is that if he thinks my work belongs in the trash because it’s not what he wants then I worry my performance review will be low and therefore my chance at promotion/raises will be torpedoed. How can I manage up appropriately in this situation? Anyone have script ideas for how to ask for clarification without tripping his “you’re taking this too seriously” response?

    1. CM*

      I think you can do a few things:
      – Create a checklist, if there are standard questions you need answered. You can introduce this by telling boss you’ve come up with a way to make your job more efficient and make sure that you’re giving him exactly what he needs.
      – Try asking questions by email if boss is more receptive to that than a conversation.
      – Ignore your boss’s comments about lightening up and being too serious — just reply, “I want to make sure what I’m doing is useful,” or “I wouldn’t want to waste your time by giving you something that doesn’t meet your needs.” You could also laugh off his comments if that’s appropriate for your relationship, like, “I know! I’m taking it too seriously. I’ll get out of your hair as soon as I’m sure what kind of teapot you need.”
      – You could also consider having a conversation with your boss: “When you give me a task, I need details to be able to complete it. When I ask for details, you often tell me to lighten up, but when I didn’t ask, you had expectations that I didn’t know about and you ended up redoing my work. Can we either agree that I can ask you clarifying questions, or come up with some other way for me to get the details I need?”

      What not to do: Don’t speculate about details that he needs to specify. That’s a waste of everybody’s time.

      1. Brownie*

        Ooo, that response about not wasting his time is a good one and I’ll use it next time. He’s always complaining about how little time he has compared to when he was in a lower position, so this could get some traction. Maybe scheduling a one-on-one would also help, dedicated time when I can ask him how he would like to handle this situation in light of the fact that the current method of communication is causing wasted time on his end and mine.

  97. Wednesday Mouse*

    Just need to rant a little bit about my current situation!

    Last week, I had an interview for a job on Tuesday, at Company A. I’m not that excited about it, but I need a job so I go to the interview and give it my all. On Wednesday, I get a phonecall, offering me the job. I ask for a few days to think it over, they give me around a week.

    On Thursday I had an interview scheduled for a job I really want, at Company B. I’ve been reading AAM long enough to know there’s no such thing as a dream job, and this job does have some concerns, but ultimately I’m really interested in the compnay, the position, it fits with my skills and career ambitions.. it’s about as good as it gets. On the interview invite, it stated they would likely give feedback to candidates the very next day. Excellent.

    On the Thursday, I attend the interview and I think it went rather well. I ask about timeline, confirming that successful candidates would hear the next day (Friday) and I’m told that unfortunately things have been pushed back a little, but I should hear in the early part of the next week.

    Late on Monday, I check in with the recruiter at Company B, telling him I have a job offer on the table. I say that whilst the job at Company B would be my first choice, ideally I need to know sooner rather than later.

    On Tuesday, I get an email back telling me that Company B’s timeline has been extended a little further, but to expect feedback by the end of the week.

    On Wednesday, I get another email telling me I’ll get feedback by the end of the week (I presume this was sent to all candidates; it was a very form-like email).

    Friday.. today.. it’s just about close of business. I’ve not heard a peep. I’ve managed to stretch the waiting time for Company A until midday on Monday, but they’ll need a definite answer by then.

    I’m just so frustrated that Company B is missing its own deadlines, and that I’m none the wiser about whether I’ll be offered the role or not. I’m desperately hoping they’ll call first thing Monday, so I can get back to Company A with an answer, but I’m not convinced that will happen.

    In the event I don’t get called by midday Monday, I don’t know what I’m going to do. I really can’t afford to turn down the job at Company A without an offer from Company B. But I don’t want to accept Company A’s offer and have to forego the job at Company B purely because of bad timing. I’d be gutted. My other option I suppose is to accept the offer from Company A, and then renege on that if I’m offered the job at Company B. That feels really skeevy to me, but I can’t see any other way forward.

    Argh. It’s another weekend of uncertainty, before anxiously waiting by the phone on Monday for a call that may or may not come. I hate this.

    1. CM*

      That sucks. Something so important shouldn’t depend so much on timing! I hope you hear from Company B soon. I would actually call today and check in — they know you have an offer pending, so I think it would be reasonable to give them a call.

    2. WalkedInYourShoes*

      If Company B is taking this long to make a decision, this would lead me to believe that they are super busy with other “important” stuff like interviewing other candidates. A new candidate may be in the mix and it may be that the Company B needs to interview this new candidate who was recommended by the board or an executive. With that, you will have to ask yourself an honest questions, “If I need an approval for a project, budget or to hire someone, will it take this long for an approval?”, “Are you willing to risk losing Company A’s offer when Company B may drag it out longer and offer the role to another candidate?”, and “Is Company B really that awesome that you want to wait that long?”

  98. RainyDay*

    I started a new job this week and am SO.EXCITED. I was nervous about the jump, as the work is somewhat different – teapot solutions vs teapot production – and I was comfortable in my last job, not to mention the big pay bump (which made me a bit nervous about expectations). But I’m so, so happy at the change and really thrilled at the projects I’m working on. I’m trying to remain realistic with these rosy glasses I’ve got on as a new hire, but first impressions indicate this will be good for my career.

    I noticed a number of my colleagues, including those at my level, are very active on Twitter. It’s not uncommon in my field but wasn’t really a thing at my last job. I’m wondering how people here handle career-related social media? I do have a Twitter handle that’s not active, so I wouldn’t really have to clean house in order to make it acceptable. I’m personally comfortable with it and think it could yield some interesting insights.

    1. Jay*

      I sporadically use Twitter – but do see it as a valuable networking tool (and just fun). Following colleagues, industry professionals or just people of interest can create great connections. As long as you are professional, it’s worth using.

    2. Curious Cat*

      I use Twitter a fair amount! In my field it’s pretty common for people to have a professional account to communicate with others in the field and keep up-to-date on latest happenings and what Thought Leaders are doing. You don’t have to be tweeting multiple times a day, but if all your other coworkers are active it may make sense to start tweeting once or twice a week (interesting articles/studies that relate to your field, replying to others with your thoughts to start making connections online, etc.)

      Just make sure you have a variant of “Views are my own” in your bio.

  99. AnotherAnon*

    An employee where I work lacks some important skills, which can lead to problems that I’ve gotten stuck dealing with. It seems like management tries to keep him happy because of his knowledge of a legacy system (which he developed in a way that makes it hard for anyone else to work with). The expectations of this guy seem to be very low, and my boss has often been dismissive of my complaints. I’ve been told that this situation is temporary, but it seems more like indefinite — it’s been going on for a while and there’s no clear end in sight. Is my best course of action to look for a different job?

    1. CM*

      It’s hard to tell from the amount of detail here, but is there a workaround? I would assume the guy isn’t going to change, and your boss isn’t going to change. Anything else within your power to influence? Could you change your workflow or put some processes in place so you’re not so susceptible to the issues this guy causes? Have somebody else be in the middle so you’re not interacting with him directly? Get some training that makes you less reliant on the guy?

      1. wayward*

        Thanks. Probably not, because there aren’t other people in the organization with the skills to do some of the things I work on. I don’t really rely on this guy for anything — we’re more like peers. It’s more like a perverse incentive system where incompetence gets this guy a pass from doing things that would normally be expected of someone in that role. And my ability to do them means stuff getting dumped on me.

    2. BRR*

      Can you try going to your manager and going “X is happening and is affecting my work in this way. Can you help by X/How would you like me to handle it?”

      1. wayward*

        The manager has generally been pretty dismissive of my complaints and defensive about the guy. In fact, I was told not to say stuff that could be viewed as critical of him.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      Welp, I can only think of one strategy here, but it could definitely backfire, but it’s all I’ve got. I also think this will only work if your co-worker is the only person who knows the ins-and-outs of the legacy system, and no one else.

      You might approach your boss again but in a spirit of concern about succession planning, to ask about what the boss’s plans are if something should happen to your co-worker that could cause him to be out of the office for a long period of time (e.g., prolonged illness, recovery from complicated surgery, gets a new job, retires, dies).

      If you can tell whether that shakes your boss up sufficiently, you could suggest that the boss direct the co-worker to train YOU on some of the activities that will keep the system going at a minimum. Of course, you’ll have to continue doing some of these things to ensure you don’t forget how to. And since some of your time is now going to have to be spent doing the legacy system support, some of the duties your colleague conveniently dropped onto you will have to return to him, because, you know, keeping the legacy system going is very important.

      I know this is lame, and could backfire, like I said (you could end up with even MORE work than before). Good luck.

    4. Artemesia*

      I once consulted with an office where the technology was dominated by a guy like this; the only solution was firing him eventually. Short of that, someone needs to be cross trained on his system — if he doesn’t cooperate, get a new system and fire him.

      1. wayward*

        Oh, I’ve already figured out most of the legacy system(s) with very little help from him, and the plan seems to be that I’ll eventually take them over. When I started, I inherited this big Java project with 30-40K LOC and no build management system whatsoever. Just IDE project files that pointed to stuff on the guy’s hard drive, with plenty of missing library files as an added bonus. When I asked him for help getting the code up and running on my workstation, he just sort of shrugged and basically said “I dunno.” My boss was pretty dismissive when I complained about this, and I got stuck figuring it out on my own. Of course, when the guy recently couldn’t figure out how to get his source code checked in, that was different, and I was told to help him.

  100. Princess Buttercup*

    Should I write a thank you note to my boss/grand boss after they gave me a promotion? I was thinking just a small card, dropped off in their inter-department mailboxes. They said they wanted to reward my work, and they apparently did some extra work with our HR department to get this done on my behalf. Overall, is it appropriate to thank them for their efforts, or is that unprofessional?

    1. Jay*

      I don’t think it’s something you have to do or is expected, but no I wouldn’t say it’s unprofessional. I don’t think a handwritten card is needed, a short email or stopping in their office to say thank you is more than enough.

    2. wayward*

      Could you thank them for their extra effort on your behalf, rather than the promotion itself?

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        I agree. My upcoming almost-in-the-bag promotion is (I think) deserved, but for various reasons, my supervisor had to expend a lot of time and capital to make it happen, much more than what would be standard. I have thanked her for that effort, not necessarily for looking at promoting me.

    3. Curious Cat*

      I think it’s a nice gesture but maybe instead just next time you see them/have a one-on-one meeting/get settled into your promotion a little more, let them know in person that you know how much effort they put into helping you get a promotion and how much you appreciate it!

    4. Peaches*

      I don’t know if that’s necessary. While I don’t think it’d be the WORST thing ever, by giving them a thank you card, it may indicate that you think they did you a favor by giving you a promotion. In theory, your promotion stemmed from the work you did, and the promotion was deserved. As long as you showed your appreciation when they told you about the raise, I think that’s sufficient.

    5. Technical_Kitty*

      I had something similar happen last month. I had a conversation with my boss expressing my gratitude for the support and effort. Kind of “thank you for supporting me in this and having faith in my abilities”. He seemed to like that.

    7. Blue Eagle*

      Mostly I would say that it is something that women would do and unlikely that a man would do (particularly with the note). I agree with the commenters above to thank them for their efforts on your behalf and not specifically for the promotion – particularly if the promotion is something that you earned.

    8. Thlayli*

      Definitely don’t thank them at ALL for the promotion. You earned it, they didn’t just give it to you as a favour and to say thanks would imply you don’t think you deserve it. Thanking them verbally for their effort is fine.

  101. SophieChotek*

    I did not get the job I interviewed for last week. I am trying to be positive about it – it was good interview practice (hopefully I can feel more confident in a future interview). Also, though I really want to leave Toxic Job, there was a major drawback about the job I applied for (having to move).

    I will keep looking! Hopefully, it won’t be a year until my next interview…

    1. wayward*

      Sometimes when you don’t get a particular job, something even better comes along (which you couldn’t have applied for if you’d just changed jobs).

      1. beanie beans*

        This is exactly what my path has looked like in the past year! I didn’t get several positions that I was interested in but didn’t get, walked away from two interview processes where I was interested but had too many red flags and/or drawbacks. And now I’m a few weeks away from starting THE job that I’d been looking for the whole time.

        I know no one ever wants to hear it, but I really do hope that it’s just good interview practice for the job that you REALLY want. I know I got MUCH better at it over the year of looking!

        1. SophieChotek*

          Thanks! That is what I am trying to tell myself when I feel glum.

          That and…

          “At least now you don’t have to pack up and move in X weeks”

          1. ..Kat..*

            Although, if moving for your next job is a possibility, can you sort through your stuff now and get rid of what you no longer need/use?

  102. Jay*

    I’m in the process of training my dog as a service dog to assist with some disabilities. While at this point I am not disabled to a point where I can’t function without the support, it does make life easier. Most likely it’ll be 6 months before she’s ready (will be in training until then), but what would be the best process/steps/conversation to approach my work about bringing her?

    1. Curious Cat*

      Definitely have a sit-down conversation with your boss to explain the situation and the potential timeline, and then work with HR & your boss for how to make it all a smooth transition & make sure you have all the accommodations you need with having a service dog in the workplace. I’d say the sooner you bring it up, the more time there is to make sure everything’s all set for you!

    2. DaniCalifornia*

      I think the sooner the better. There’s time to adjust accommodations if needed. To put the plan in action and anticipate needs roadblocks. Or if for some reason there are severe allergy issues with a coworker you could get it straightened out beforehand.

  103. Persimmons*

    Weirdest interview question that was new to me: this week an intern mentioned she was once asked “If you could make any animal extinct, which one would you choose and why?”

    She has a background in public health, so she chose mosquitoes for obvious reasons. I can’t imagine thinking that fast!

    1. BadWolf*

      I would probably fail at this question because I’d probably wander off on a tangent about how everything fits in the food chain somewhere. If you get rid of mosquitoes, what will the brown bats eat? Caveat, Malaria is awful, so her answer was a good one for the job interview.

    2. SpaceNovice*

      I thought mosquitos before I finished reading your comment, so it’s definitely believable. Then again, I’ve had conversations with friends about that exact question just as a fun thing to consider.

    3. Thlayli*

      Giant Pandas. They are fuzzy and adorable but they are such an evolutionary dead end. They have so much trouble procreating and they can only eat one specific type of plant. there’s just no way they’ll make it long term. They are just diverting conservation resources from animals we might be able to actually save.

  104. Jessie M.*

    I’ve been working hard at building trust and open communication with the person I supervise. I know this person is not going to stay in their current job forever, so we’ve been working together to maximize professional development opportunities and networking so that the next move is the right move.
    Now, this person has told me that they’re applying for a job, and I support this. The thing is….I was told this in confidence, after months of work building up trust and open communication. Do I have an obligation to tell my manager what is going on, since my manager oversees our whole office? Or not, since it’s not my news to tell?

    1. The Rat-Catcher*

      I would say no, because it’s so outside of custom for an employee to tip off a supervisor that they’re looking for other work. Unless you think they are going to cut and run with no notice, or steal information, or some other concern along those lines, I wouldn’t disclose without this person’s OK.

  105. Fabulous*

    How did you tell your employer you were pregnant?

    Coworkers first, then manager? All together? Anyone with a virtual team make the announcement?

    1. Curious Cat*

      Not me, but my remote coworker let our boss know first & then waited until she could fly into town to see the rest of us and surprise announce it! It was very exciting and unexpected! (Although we all look at each other’s calendars a lot for meeting scheduling, and one coworker said she’d noticed that Pregnant Coworker had a lot of doctor appointments and did wonder… :) )

      1. Fabulous*

        I feel like my manager is already wondering what’s going on with me, and I’ve only had 2 appointments so far! She is also remote but will supposedly be in the office sometime this summer, so I think I’ll tell her then. If my one co-worker in the office doesn’t pick up on it beforehand I want to do a group announcement during one of our team meetings (over the phone, since everyone else is remote too)!

    2. Formerly Arlington*

      I told my manager around the 12 week mark, then my coworker friends. All on the same day.

      With the exception of one person who had announced her pregnancy the week prior to this–we were due the same week! So I told her in confidence. :-) Our kids are now 7 1/2 years old.

      Congrats, BTW!

    3. Nita*

      Boss first. Coworkers kind of figured it out later, but I had to have a sort-of formal conversation with my boss because she’ll eventually have to plan around my leave. I suppose if it was a virtual team, I’d let the boss know, and then anyone else who will be affected (like whoever relies on you for something, or will fill in for you). Congrats!

    4. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Told both of my bosses around the 8 week mark because 1) they were cool about other pregnancies and 2) I had a lot of nausea and wanted to give them a heads-up. I then told my coworkers as the weeks went on, starting with the ones I was closet with, and then let the gossip train take over. :)

    5. motherofdragons*

      I have a team that’s half in my office and half virtual in other parts of the state. I let my (in-office) boss know first (I came prepared with a plan for when I would be on leave), and then my close in-office coworkers know right after. We have regularly scheduled team meetings via videoconference, and I announced to the rest of the team at the next one of those.

      The surprise was spoiled slightly because we’d just all attended a conference together where I knew I was pregnant, but wasn’t quite ready to tell anyone yet, but apparently it was becoming obvious so most of my team wasn’t surprised by the news (getting caught with IHOP takeout for dinner one night may have something to do with it…).

    6. Anon Preggo Worker*

      My team is all virtual. I told my manager at the end of our regular one-on-one video call. Then a few weeks later we had another event where a handful of our team was present – so in the breakroom I waited for a silence and announced it to everyone. And I quickly added, “Feel free to tell the others so I don’t have to!” I really didn’t like the idea of making a big announcement, but I also didn’t want to keep telling people one by one. And sure enough the rest of the word spread without me having to do more.

      Then I also emailed my other closer colleagues who were still working remotely to tell them I’d just told the group. I think they appreciated that, since if you’re not on the travel schedule, you’re the last to know news about the team.

    8. Chaordic One*

      I had a coworker who didn’t tell anyone she was pregnant. She was about 8 months along and if you looked at her you might have thought she’d gained some weight, but she didn’t really look pregnant. She developed a toothache from a cavity, went to the dentist (and didn’t tell him she was pregnant either) and had a reaction to the anesthesia which put her into labor. The next day her husband called to say that she was in labor and she gave birth later that day.

    9. Overeducated*

      I actually had to tell HR first because it was the only way to get the necessary work provided maternity uniforms (had to be ordered in a specific month for the whole year). I was really pissed off because it forced my hand earlier than I had planned to inform my boss, but I then followed up and told her. It worked out ok but i would have liked to choose my own timing. Told coworkers after that but in a casual way as it came up, not as an announcement.

  106. anon anony*

    My department is very small- it’s just me and my co-worker “Lisa”. Lisa can be nice, but she is the office gossip and extremely nosy. I left my previous job because it was abusive and there was a lot of yelling every day- I got sick of it and left. I was thinking about going back to school and took some classes. I talked about this in my interview, but Lisa seems to think that there is more to it and was even asking about my W-2 forms when I was doing taxes. I don’t know what her deal is. Today we were talking about insurance and she was again prying into whether I had it when I “wasn’t working”.

    She claims that she is very “empathetic” and cares, which is why she asks, but I don’t think so. She also acts friendly one second, the next second she seems mad or upset.

    The thing is, I have NEVER asked her invasive questions like she asks me. She rarely tells me info about her own life. She doesn’t do this to anyone else. I feel very uncomfortable. We work together, so I have to deal with her whether I want to or not.

    I’m not perfect, but I’m sick of her treating me like I’m the enemy. I give her respect, but can’t she do the same?

    How do I set firm boundaries, when she will just try and push through them?

    1. LCL*

      Most people will tell you to directly tell her to stop asking invasive questions. That is a great approach. Are you able to do that?
      Let me channel my mom for a minute. ‘Just because someone asks you a question doesn’t mean you have to answer it.’ Mom was right on that one. People like Lisa don’t see this kind of boundary pushing as disrespectful. You have to push back. Just refuse to answer her questions. Have some all purpose answers, if you believe you must say something in response. “Oh, that was so long ago I don’t remember.” “Why are you asking me this question? What does this have to do with our task today?” “That is private information, I don’t share that with anybody.” etc

    2. Blue Eagle*

      “Why do you ask?” is always a good first response. Which puts her a bit on the spot and makes her have to come up with a reason to then you can respond “I like to keep my work and private life separate, if you have a work-related question let me know”.

      If you keep responding with “why do you ask?” she will hopefully get the message that you are not responding to any questions that your first response if “why do you ask?”

      1. Thlayli*

        This.

        Story time! I was taught that asking people questions about themselves was friendly and a good way to make friends. I was not informed of where the line lay between “friendly” and “nosy”. I was sometimes nosy when I thought I was being friendly. One day someone said to me “why do you want to know” and I thought about it and I really didn’t want to know – I had thought I was just making small talk/chatting. His question made me realise that I had crossed the line into inappropriate. After that I was a lot more careful to stay on the “friendly” side of the nosy/friendly lime.

        Your coworker sounds like a lot more extreme case than me but “why do you want to know?” Will make her think about why she is asking

  107. anon here again*

    Has anyone ever worked with people nearing retirement and that is all they talk about? I work with a lot of great people, but they are always talking about retiring and how they have X years left with the company, etc.

      1. Jenny 8675309*

        YES! My Chief Master Sergeant was ROAD for a year. All he did was walk around with his coffee cup and talk about the awesome R.V. he bought (and lived in, in FamCamp).

        I don’t think my husband went ROAD. He worked pretty hard up to the last day but then it was ‘Week of the Eagles” at Campbell (101st Week) when he retired and he was an M.P so it was crazy for him.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Yeah, I got that a ton when I was in gov’t. It gets old. With the agency I was in, you could bank up your vacation time, so the closer a lot of these people got to retirement, a lot of them started doing 4 day workweeks (or less) because they had so much vacation saved up. Quite a few started with random Fridays off…which transitioned to every Friday off….which transitioned to every Friday and Monday off… it was an ongoing half joke that as soon as someone took a Friday off, they were said to be starting to prepare for retirement.

      1. Imaginary Number*

        I think the problem goes back to the “up-or-out” system. When you’re earlier in your career you have to perform because you won’t make it to the next rank if you don’t. But there’s really no mechanism for kicking someone out just for being lousy at their job, even if it’s intentional lousiness. It has to be actual misconduct. But once they get to a certain rank there is no up-or-out cutoff before retirement, so there’s no real mechanism to deal with them.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          It’s pretty much that exactly. They’d rather just wait the almost-retired out and let them do what they want in the meantime. And then they wonder why they keep losing a lot of the earlier-in-their-career folks.

          1. Imaginary Number*

            Honestly I think the new retirement system will help with that, although it will take a long time to catch up. There will no longer be this magical 20-year button. So people who want out early can get out without losing their whole pension. And it will be less of a big deal to kick someone out at 19 years.

    3. EmilyAnn*

      Yes, when I worked with military folks, they talked about retirement and their next assignments constantly. It was annoying.

    4. Jenny 8675309*

      Let them talk. Let them enjoy and revel in their hard work. Indulge their dreams and second lives they’re about to embark on. It’s annoying because it’s not us retiring and if it gets in the way of their doing their work.

      We’ll do the same thing when we get there.

      I love hearing about what people will do when they retire. My husband and I have had several plans that have since gone into the past ‘wishes’ books.

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      I know this might be difficult to do in the moment when you hear it, since you might not always be in a position to do this immediately, but consider that the next time they start talking about retirement, it might be fun to ask them something like “What was the weirdest thing you ever experienced while working here?” or “Did anything ever happen here that really scared you about the agency’s future?” or “Who was the funniest hire?” or “Who was the best communicator you ever saw work here?” When they give you an answer, ask them “Why was that?” You might get some interesting history about, or insight into, your agency, or learn about the skills, or approach to problem-solving, of someone who was acknowledged as being really good at the job in a way that you could even emulate in your own career.

    6. Windchime*

      Oh. My. God. Yes. There are a couple of older men who sit near me, and that is ALL they talk about; sometimes for hours on end. If they’re not lecturing each other about retirement, then they are arguing about bitcoin. And they are both LOUD, so everyone in our part of the room has to listen to it.

  108. Imaginary Number*

    Am I right to be bothered by this?

    My company often has auctions for employee charity fundraisers. Usually they auction things off like good parking spots, company branded jackets, etc. But one they came out with recently was auctioning off “mentoring sessions” with the CEO and other very senior people. That just really rubbed me the wrong way because it felt like “pay to get ahead” (the company is large enough that such an event would not normally occur on it’s own with 99% of the employees.)

    1. The Rat-Catcher*

      You’re right, it’s weird. Even if it isn’t “pay to get ahead,” it can create that perception and if someone who buys one of those is later promoted, there will be that shadow over it and will detract from their own credibility/accomplishments.

    2. Temperance*

      I’ve seen things like this work well for charities, BUT it’s usually like “Golf with X person”, and it doesn’t come off as buy your way into meeting the boss. I have a feeling they were trying to mimic charitable auctions and just didn’t consider the optics.

    3. Anxiety Anon*

      That might be better suited to a raffle? Like, tickets for chances are $x and there is a drawing for however many different sessions.

      1. Grace Less*

        Yes, my company has a holiday-time raffle benefiting charity, and it’s a mix of “stuff” and experiences. The experiences are each sponsored by/attended by a group of executives.a raffle feels more “fair” than an auction, although obviously buying more chances does improve the odds of winning.

    4. Girl friday*

      It should probably be time with other CEOs. It’s not pay to get ahead as much as currying favor, esp if they see who signed up.

  109. puzzld*

    I know Alison has said this better than I could, but when asked for a resume’ and a cover letter… customize that cover letter and then send the correct letter for the job! We just had an applicant who looks promising if you read her resume’, but her cover letter goes on and on about how she wants a teaching job, and her favorite age is middle school kids and…

    We aren’t hiring for a teaching position. We’re going to interview her, but, she’s dug herself a nice little hole, she’s going to have to talk her way out of.

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      What position are you hiring for? I’m in higher ed IT so we get a lot of professor hopefuls…I get that teaching part-time pays peanuts and you often need another job to cover it, but if you want to teach, apply for teaching jobs! We get so many people who want to use our full-time IT staff positions as a foot in the door to teaching.

  110. /s*

    My partner is probably cutting on an offer he accepted. It’s in education so stuff is always a little wonky in that industry. Any advice on how to navigate it? He knows his burning a bridge but seems worth it.

    1. Forking Great Username*

      Has he already signed a contract? If so, and you’re talking K-12 public education, that’s something he needs to be incredibly careful about as it can potentially lead to the state pulling your teaching license! This depends on location of course, but be careful.

      1. School Psych*

        Like you said, it really depends on the district and area. In my area, an administrator in that district would have to pursue completing the paper-work for your state license to get pulled. I’ve worked in districts with high-turnover and I’ve never seen anyone get their license pulled for breaking a contract. It would definitely be worth investigating before making a final decision though.

    2. School Psych*

      I am in education and did something similar. I accepted a renewed contract from the district I was working in, but kept interviewing. When I got another offer, I had to back out of the renewed contract I’d accepted. I gave them some specific reasons why I was backing out(more money, working with my preferred age range, closer commute) and just said that new district was a better fit for my career long term. They were nice about it. This happens in education a lot, since most of the hiring goes on over the summer/early in the school year. I’ve seen teachers in some districts I’ve worked in start the year, work for a couple of weeks and then bail when they got a better offer. It’s not an ideal thing to do, and your partner won’t be able to reapply to that district again. Administrators in neighboring districts all know each other and talk, so he might also be burning a bridge as far as getting hired in surrounding districts . He should be really sure that this is what he wants and okay with possibility that he might be job searching again sooner than he thinks. People get riffed(have their position not renewed the following year because of funding) all the time, and administrators in districts frequently change. There is no guarantee that the he’ll back out of this offer and end up in different position long-term. This doesn’t make it the wrong decision, but he should think about whether the short-term benefits of a different position make it worth burning all those bridges.

  111. The Rat-Catcher*

    I need some advice.

    I work in a government agency. I am occasionally invited to sit in on certain client meetings as an objective representative. I have done this hundreds of times. I was recently asked to sit in on one for Hermione, a worker for whom I have done this at least ten times. Hermione has worked at our org for three years (that’s a while in our high-turnover field) and is in the process of taking on a specialized caseload. Her supervisor, Pansy, before being promoted, had this caseload.
    The thing is that Hermione has always been confident, knowledgeable, and personable. But Pansy constantly interrupts her, second guesses her decisions in these meetings in front of everyone, and still generally acts like this is her (Pansy’s) caseload. (This isn’t unique to Hermione – Pansy has always been like this, and it’s always been allowed to slide because she was good at her job in other ways and very dedicated.) Hermione is not getting the respect she needs from the clients or the other professionals working these cases in order to do this job effectively. Even worse, after several months under Pansy, she is now either timid or complacent (I’m not sure which) and has become hesitant to propose her ideas on how to move forward, hesitates to answer client questions, and does not project confidence as she once did, which is Very Bad as these clients are some of our most difficult.
    I’m in a different unit. My direct supervisor, Luna, is three levels above Pansy and four above Hermione, so I am hesitant to discuss this with her as this would be seen as a huge escalation if she decided to step in. However, I am not in any type of management role myself – my role is more support. I have voiced concerns about the Hermione-Pansy relationship to Pansy’s manager, Minerva, but at that point the conversation was more “Pansy is taking over Hermione’s meetings when she’s capable of running them herself” and Minerva dismissed it as “personality differences.” But these additional concerns make me fear that we will either lose Hermione or that she will never be able to work this caseload effectively due to Pansy’s antics. And it’s possible (although not likely) that Hermione made a huge mistake recently and that’s the explanation for both the loss of confidence and all the second-guessing, and I wouldn’t necessarily know if that had happened. But as I said, we are a higher turnover field and it seems to me that supervisor rudeness is a 100% preventable cause of workers quitting. I’m just not sure if I should speak up again. Help!

    1. Technical_Kitty*

      Have you mentioned it to Pansy? Or spoken to Hermione about it? Some support for Hermione might help, and with a better understanding of the situation you may be able to say something useful to Pansy if you aren’t going to escalate it.

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        I haven’t spoken with Hermione directly; we don’t have a lot of privacy here with our cubicle setup. But maybe it’s worth trying to get her alone to follow up. That might also tell me if there’s something at play I’m unaware of. Thanks for the suggestion!

    3. YetAnotherFed*

      Also, your agency sounds a lot like my federal agency in terms of specialized workloads and high turnover. Is there a way that Hermione could be switched to a different supervisor or team lead? Or is there a way that you can encourage Hermione to keep coming to you for backup?

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        They have Hermione under Pansy because of her knowledge of the workload. I think she could easily be switched once she has a handle on the caseload, but I’m afraid that isn’t going to happen for the reasons I mentioned. I can definitely let her know that I can back her up as needed. I guess I was assuming she knew that, but maybe I shouldn’t have since we aren’t close. Thanks for the idea!

  112. Tara R.*

    Y’all. How do you deal with really bad menstrual symptoms at work? Last month I spent half an hour hiding in the bathroom crying from pain and then ended up having to go home anyways because I almost passed out during a meeting (picked a good month to start getting dizzy during my periods I guess? That had literally never happened to me before). It is month 2 of this job and it’s a much better month symptom-wise, but I’m in enough discomfort that I’m not really getting much done. I generally have one really bad morning and then I’m ok, so at my last place I would just say I had a headache or something and come in in the afternoon, but this is an internship, I’m only here for four months, and the office culture doesn’t seem quite as flexible. Best to just grit my teeth and try to look like I’m being productive? Is it unprofessional to bring in a heating pad? (Mostly a joke, I know that would be weird. I would consider it if I had an office…)

    1. ABK*

      Are there medical solutions? Diagnosis of endometriosis, birth control that skips periods, etc? OR, I’ve had good luck with super Midol, wearing loose fitting pants/dresses and drinking lots of liquids to help manage the discomfort. ALSO, interns do get sick sometimes and I don’t think that calling out sick half a day a month is so unreasonable. Good Luck!

      1. Tara R.*

        I’ve checked in with a doctor & they don’t think I have endometriosis, but I’m considering trying to get onto some form of birth control. I’m a little scared of it (lots of horror stories from friends & family who have had bad experiences!!) but I mean… hopefully it would be better than doing this every month?

        The loose-fitting clothes suggestion is actually really good. I work in tech, so everyone wears jeans every day– I’m not sure what pants I could wear that aren’t jeans (or leggings or sweatpants, which are the only other ‘pants’ I currently own) but aren’t too dressy. I would kill for a pair of sweatpants right now!!

        1. Natalie*

          Provided you start with something short term and easily reversible like the pill, I wouldn’t let the horror stories scare you! Yes, side effects are a concern but there are lots of different pill formulations you can try so you can avoid any serious ones, and if you just get unlucky and have a bad reaction to all hormonal birth control, you can stop taking it/remove it (for the patch or ring) and the medicine will be out of your system within a day or two.

          Also, you’re having a bad experience RIGHT NOW. If you get a mild side effect from bc (like acne or something) but it makes your period a ton better, maybe that’s a good trade? You DO NOT have to just suffer through terrible menstrual symptoms because… womanhood.

        2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          I’m also in tech, so probably working in an environment with the same level of formality. I just found a pair of wide-legged, elastic waist pants at Target. Mine are navy with white stripes, but they also had black and white. They feel comparable in formality to jeans, but unlike jeans, I can fit them over my knee brace. (I’ve been living in skirts and shorts since mid-May – all my other pants bind over the brace. Six weeks of physical therapy, here I come!)

          I’ll also sometimes wear a maxi-skirt made from a jersey knit material, especially when cramps are bad or I’m otherwise physically uncomfortable. I describe it as “a t-shirt for my legs”. (Jeans and t-shirts are the usual wardrobe of most of my office.)

          1. Tara R.*

            Thank you! This is super helpful. I honestly haven’t worked with many women in my industry (at my last place me & the other intern were the only two female software engineers) so I sometimes have a hard time with what to wear! As soon as I’m over the ‘curl up in bed with a heating pad watching Queer Eye and crying my eyes out’ part of this month, I’m going to go shopping.

            1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

              Yeah, as a woman in tech “wear what everyone else wears” and “dress for the job you want” don’t always work so well :/

              It took a while for me to figure out a style that works for me. I suspect two things help – one, I grew up in a family of textile crafters so I know what to look for in terms of fabric types, construction, care, etc, and two – I don’t GAF if people are confused by me not sticking to the default tech “uniform” of jeans and t-shirt.

              Work fashion choices when you’re in the minority gender for your profession and have a loose dress code probably makes a thread all by itself, actually…

        3. SpaceNovice*

          Remember that doctors sometimes don’t take women’s issues seriously. I don’t know if that’s the case, but the symptoms you’re mentioning are pretty extreme. You should definitely see if there’s anything that can be done medically for you.

        4. Kat in VA*

          I take birth control continuously…as in, I don’t take the week off of sugar pills.

          I do not miss my period, not one little teeny tiny bit. No scary side effects – no moodiness, bigger tatas, weight gain, loss of libido, any of that. Just no worries about pregnancy and no dealing with cramps, mess, crankiness, bloating, or any of that garbage. OB/GYN has assured me it is perfectly safe.

          Something to consider?

    2. Delphine*

      Thermacare has some menstrual heat wraps. When I am in crippling pain and have to be at work, I use those. Go into the bathroom, pop one into my underwear (it has a sticky back) with the warm part on my abdomen, and it really does help a lot. I also start “prepping” two to three days before my period by taking a dose of ibuprofen each day. It’s an anti-inflammatory and often helps decrease the severity of the cramps.

        1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          I swear by these. I keep a spare in my desk drawer at work with my other menstrual supplies. Some months, they are the difference between “curled up at home in bed” and “at least marginally functional at work”.

          Also: hydrate, hydrate, hydrate. Keep drinking whatever you normally drink during the day, but add more water. (The official advice I’ve seen is avoid caffeine entirely, but if you regularly drink caffeinated beverages, cutting them out suddenly leads to caffeine headaches and other painful annoyances.)

      3. Hamburke*

        I have these in the clinic for my daughters. (Yes, they need to be kept in the clinic… Yes, that’s dumb…)

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      I always sit at my desk with a heating pad because it’s like a frozen tundra in here. So whenever I have awful cramps, instead of the heating pad being in my lap, it’s more over my abdomen instead. So you could plausibly have a heating pad and just say you’re cold but not have it on? But if your symptoms are that bad, I echo ABK and suggest visiting your doctor and seeing if there’s an underlying cause.

    4. Mockingjay*

      Try some of the self-heating patches from the drug store. These adhere to your skin and can be worn under clothes. Not as good as a heating pad but helps. (The generic brand works just as well as the name brand.)

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      Advice above is good as far as work goes, I would just add, if these symptoms are a change for you (which sounds like the dizziness is, at least), and you’re able to, I would really talk to a doctor (a good one who listens and understands that extreme pain during a period is NOT always – or even usually – normal). Because, well, that’s not necessarily normal, and there may be something going on that needs to be addressed medically. Even if it’s not a huge change symptom-wise for you, it may be worth talking to a doctor about it; that level of pain during menstruation really can be a sign of a medical issue. Good luck!

      1. Tara R.*

        It’s on my to-do list! I’m in an annoying situation where I don’t have a family doctor in my city, and while I technically have one in my home town (~5-6 hours away), I haven’t seen her since I was maybe thirteen. My university has a like healthcare office or something that they say functions like a family doctor, but they’re only open 9-5 Mon-Fri, and I’m working over those hours. Sigh.

        Those of you who hire interns, how much sick time do you consider reasonable for someone who’s there for four months? I’m considering taking another half day for a doctor’s appointment.

        1. Linda Evangelista*

          Absolutely take the time you need. Not sure if you’re being paid or not, but ESPECIALLY if you are unpaid, take your time. Your health is more important than any job and a reasonable employer is going to understand if you need to see a doctor.

          1. WellRed*

            Yes, better to take the time to address this then be at work, miserable and not working. Also, you may need to see a GYN rather than a family doctor for better help on this particular issue.

    6. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      OK, I’m going to offer this suggestion even though I know it is NOT easy (for me at least), and most months I am not able to pull this off because of my raging cheese addiction, but if I can cut way back on dairy the week or 2 before my period, my cramps go from 10+ to a 2 or 3, way manageable with my magic combination of 1 aleve & 1 advil (not sure why it has to be the combo, but it does).

      And I feel you on the dizziness. I get that too – nothing wrong with me, just another annoying side effect.

    7. Ellie*

      Go to the doctor!!! You should not have to deal with this sort of interruption in your life. You need to be checked for more serious issues and, if possible, get prescription pain relievers. (There are some that won’t impact your productivity.) While you’re waiting to get in to the doctor, take iron supplements- anemia could be related to dizziness. Get Aleve till you get a prescription; it saved me!! And follow everyone’s advice here: yes to heating pads and those stick on heating things. I reiterate: there is NO reason for you to suffer like this. (Make sure you eat with the pain reliever!)

      1. probably nerdy*

        Take the NSAID of choice BEFORE cramps start, that part is vital.

        I’ve had good luck with 500mg naproxen.

    8. Thlayli*

      I’m sure this has been mentioned above, but this is not “normal menstrual pain”. The severe pain could be endometriosis, the dizzy spells could be low iron or low Blood pressure. Please see a doctor.

      It’s possible the doctor may not be able to discover or cure whatever it is, but you never know until you try.

    9. Jaid_Diah*

      I agree with the others about using the Thermacare patch. That can last up to eight hours.

      Before my hysterectomy, I also used a IcyHot Smart Relief TENS unit, the electric impulse device that adheres to your skin. It was AWESOME.

      By the way, if you find yourself craving chewing ice and having catching your breath, you’re losing too much blood during your period. The dizzy spell is worrying. Ask if you should be taking iron pills and B12.

      I wish you well!

  113. LDN Layabout*

    What would be your understanding of a dress code that was: Business Attire?

    I’m moving from an office that business casual and already mourning my leggings (Not necessary but with being plus size and the cut skirts/dresses I was wearing it helped me be confident wearing them…and not sitting like a lady~).

    For now I’m getting a few basic pieces (dark trousers, some nicer plain tops, midi length dresses I already own) and then scoping out what everyone else wears.

    1. Technical_Kitty*

      Business Attire means blouses and skirts, midi dresses, dress pants to me. No fun prints or jeans :-/ That’s me though, and I have actively avoided jobs that required it so I may not be the best source.

      For nicer dressy things I have hot up[ ModCloth successfully as well as a couple other made to measure for plus size sites (can’t remember name right now).

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          I think the print on this is fine, but the cut is not “business attire.” This in a standard wrap dress or sheath would likely be fine.

          1. LDN Layabout*

            I was worried about the cut :/ Although it doesn’t lie on me the same as the model because I am definitely…lighter up top.

            1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              I mean, in a lot of workplaces (like mine) it would be totally fine. But if all we’re going on is “business attire” I’d avoid those funky, cool 50s-style dresses.

              Also, I hear ya on the crappy options that we plus-size folks have. Ugh.

              1. LDN Layabout*

                But isn’t weird shoulder cut outs, ruffles and bardot tops WHICH MEAN YOU CAN’T WEAR A PROPER BRA what every plus size woman wants?

                I’d be less annoyed if it wasn’t just half decent basics I was looking for.

                2. Technical_Kitty*

                  Bwahahaha, hate that stuff. I have a rack, there is no strapless bra wearing on a regular basis.

                  The stuff people have suggested should work, colour pallet, mi and match separates, etc. The other thing I like is tailoring, if you’ve got a decent womens tailor around that isn’t breaking the bank. I do that for long sleeve, button downs. I like this kind of shirt because I spend a lot of time with the nearly all male exec but they are tough to find in prints or colours I like in my size. They are pretty specific though. Also alterations will definitely be your friend when it comes to business dress, looking neat and tidy goes a long way in that environment and as plus size i find that gaping, stretching, etc happen more often.

          2. Kat in VA*

            Seconding wrap dresses! You can wear a cardigan or even a blazer over them to make them more dressy.

            Bonus: they are very, very forgiving of weight gain/loss/bloating/too many burritos. I have six or seven of them and I LOVE them unreasonably!

            They can also be dressed up or down depending on the shoes you wear. The most conservative = heels and hose. Less conservative – flats. Least conservative – sandals or knee high boots.

            I love my wrap dresses (did I say that?)

        2. Bex*

          If you add a blazer over the dress, I think it might work! But I agree that it might be too casual as-is. In general, blazers are great for making outfits lean more “business attire”

    2. Argh!*

      Pick a color palette and choose separates that you can mix-and-match so you have some variety while you’re building your wardrobe. Pumps are a safe start for your shoe wardrobe – 1 pair black & 1 pair brown.

      If you have time before you start, “spy” on your new coworkers and take notes on what they wear. That should give you some ideas.

      … and congratulations!

      1. LDN Layabout*

        If it’s not a patterned piece I tend to favour black with accents of jewel tones, so that will be fine as a starting point. Shoes-wise as well I stick to smart ballet flats in either black or navy (I’ve got brown hair, brown eyes and a southern european propensity to tan so wearing brown makes me feel like I’m playing dress-up as a tree).

        I’m going to get a few pieces before I start and then get the rest after I get the lay of the land :)

        And thank you!

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Good plan on the basics to start as well as getting the lay of the land. Sometimes Business Attire means no jeans or khakis/chinos and polo shirts

      I’d keep the palette neutral for the pants and jackets (yes I’d try to start incorporating jackets into the mix), but you can have a little fun with the blouses don’t go way overboard crazy, but there is room for color and prints). I opt for black pants, a light blouse (I wear camisoles/nicer tanks in the summer and long sleeve layers in the winter), and black heels. I can then layer a blazer or a cardigan as needed.

    4. Ranon*

      Corporette covers a lot of women’s business attire and they’ve upped their plus size content a bunch lately, it might be worth a browse especially the brand roundup posts.

  114. A Nonna Miss*

    so my manager found out that I went on an interview and had a pretty aggressive conversation with me. It wasn’t even really an interview, more like an informal chat to see if the open position was a good fit and it was mutually decided that it was not. I’m definitely not happy in my job but am not looking to jump ship for just anything. I felt really put on the defensive and was not given any warning that I was about to have that type of conversation. Has anyone else been called out when their boss found out they were interviewing? I’m embarrassed and angry. I still want to keep my options open but I don’t want to get reamed out if my boss finds out that I’ve talked to other people. I’m known for being skilled in my industry and when people started finding out that I was open to new opportunities I’ve had some other companies interested in talking to me. Now I don’t know if I should put my job search on hold because I got “caught”

    2. wayward*

      If your boss got nasty about you even having an informational chat with another company, could that be a sign that it’s time to start looking more aggressively, albeit very discreetly?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Me too. It’s kind of not fair that your boss is capitalizing on someone else’s lack of discretion, using it against you, and then not letting you know how that even happened. On the other hand, better she was up front with you about knowing (and reacting poorly in that process) than not telling you why she’s suddenly turning against you.

        Also, I’m not sure what there is to “call you out” on – best case, your boss asks if there’s anything you’d want to make sure you stay, but at most boss should keep right out of it.

        Incidentally, a friend of mine took another job after her career stalled out and the management’s reaction to her news was “you ingrate, after all we’ve done for you!” and absolutely no effort to counter-offer. 100% right call for her to leave.

      3. Thlayli*

        This! Now she knows you are looking she is probably going to put in motion plans to replace you.

  115. Pootatoe*

    So I’m an office manager/client services person for a chocolate teapot firm. I’ve been working in the field for about 5 years now, but I’m relatively new to this firm. So far, I’m pretty content– I like my coworkers, I’m good at my job, and I feel appreciated here. The pay is pretty good for my role and I want to stay and grow in this job for a couple more years at least.

    Recently, a Teapot Professional that I used to work with contacted me recently, asking if I would be interested in some part time work as a writer for their client materials for their own chocolate teapot firm. It seems like a great opportunity well within my wheelhouse, I like writing and I love money, and I’d like to build up my portfolio in case I want to branch out and do other writing-type freelance projects in the future, but… I’m not imagining the potential conflict of interest here, am I? The other firm is a direct competitor to ours, and while I really like the Teapot Professional in question, I don’t want to do anything that might jeopardize my job.

    At this rate I could:
    – Say yes, and just do it on the side without telling my current job.
    – Ask my managers if it would be okay if I helped out Other Teapot Company on a freelance basis (I’m afraid that doing do will make me seem naive, or like “Duh, of course you shouldn’t. Why are you even asking?”)
    – Say no, but I’d still love to catch up with the other Teapot Professional sometime.

    It’s just such a great little side gig that I’d love to do and perfectly within my skillset, and might lead to more opportunities, but… I’m still pretty new to the workforce and not sure what the norms are when it comes to “working for competitors” like this. Any advice would be great!

    1. Kir Royale*

      Say no. If you signed a non-compete clause when you started, and they found out, you would be fired immediately, and potentially subject to further legal action.

      1. Pootatoe*

        I didn’t sign a non-compete when I started out, so I don’t know if legal action would be on the table. Firing, of course, it definitely a possibility.

    2. OtterB*

      Even without a formal non-compete agreement, I think doing work for a direct competitor is just too problematic. Tell other Teapot Professional that you would have loved to do the project but think it’s a conflict of interest, but keep you in mind if there’s something that’s not a competitor, and that you’d love to catch up.

    3. Nacho*

      I’d err on the side of declining, but definitely run it by your boss first. You never know, maybe he’s the kind of guy who doesn’t care about minor conflicts of interests like this and will tell you to go ahead. But if he’s not, it’ll cause problems if you don’t at least give him a heads up.

    4. Bex*

      If they are a direct competitor, then working for them would be a pretty major conflict of interest. I would pass on it.

    5. Pootatoe*

      Thank you everyone for your input– “No” was what my gut was saying, but my eyes were blinded by dollar signs!

    6. Thlayli*

      Check your contract – this may be against the rules outright in which case you need to say no. If you never signed anything agreeing no to work for competitors then it’s more of a grey area, but I would definitely recommend you get the ok from your boss first since they are a direct competitor.

      If you are worried about how your boss might react, then it might be safer to just say no.

    1. nep*

      What industry? Have you already got a region or country in mind, or you’d take a job anywhere?

    2. Thlayli*

      1 look into visa restrictions and languages and the state of the industry in various countries and identify a country to search in
      2 start looking at job websites that focus on that country

  117. PierreBear*

    Several months ago, my number-one client said he hoped to hire me for a large-scale project—one that would not only pay amply at the time but offer opportunities for the future, too. I responded enthusiastically and we mutually agreed to get to work as soon as his time frame was clear. At the time, he thought that would be a week or two, max. I told him the only firm commitment on my freelance calendar: a monthlong stint with my oldest client—not my highest paying, but the one that helped me get started in the first place and has been a steady source. (Also, I enjoy the oldest client more.) Number One client said that was fine; the dates he was thinking of were well before that.

    But then Number One put it off, and again, and again. Twice I reminded him of my other firm commitment, and he always assured me he was keeping that in mind.

    And NOW Number One has finally sent dates, starting THREE DAYS before my monthlong commitment to oldest client.

    I’m not breaking my commitment to oldest client. But what’s the most elegant way of swallowing my frustration when I respond to Number One? I want to work with them—and on this project, if it can be rescheduled—but it’s hard to think of any formulation that doesn’t come across like blame.

    1. OtterB*

      I’d say something like, you’re so sorry, but as you said when the project schedule was first discussed, you have a long-standing commitment on your calendar and are unavailable from Date1 through Date2. You’d like very much to work on the project, and is it possible to schedule it for after Date2?

    2. Persimmons*

      The language needs some massaging, but something like:

      As previously mentioned, I have a prior commitment from Day X to Day Y. I want to give your project the attention it deserves, but will not be available until Day Z. Please know that I will take a prior commitment to you just as seriously, should another project arise while you and I are working together.

    3. miyeritari*

      “Unfortunately, I won’t be able to take this job at this dates, as I indicated I have a previous commitment on [these dates] in our other emails about your project. I’d be happy to follow up with you around [after after Previous Commitment is over] if you’re still interested.”

  118. Erika22*

    Advice from UK readers would be greatly appreciated! tl;dr what are some key differences in applying to jobs in the UK vs the US based on what you’ve read on AAM?

    Longer: I’ve just moved to a major city in the UK and have finally ramped up my job hunt! (I was trying to enjoy funemployment but am feeling antsy.) Since my partner has a well paid job, I’m able to be more selective in my applications and take my time with each one, but so far my rate of return is significantly lower than when I was applying to jobs in my major city in the US. I’m sure there’s more competition for jobs here, but I also wonder if there’s something too…..American….. in my applications. Based on the comments from UK readers on the thank-you note post earlier, I’m worried I’m seeming too braggy or casual or something. How well would you UK readers say Alison’s advice applies to job hunting in the UK? Is there anything that absolutely would not fly/be way off here? (And tangental question: a good two-thirds of the place’s I’ve applied to haven’t explicitly asked for a cover letter as a cover letter, but rather explaining how well you meet the criteria in the job pack. Is a traditional cover letter ok in these situations, or do they really want a more thorough addressing of their requirements?)

    Thank you in advance :)

    1. LDN Layabout*

      What kind of jobs are you going for?

      But for big picture differences:

      1) Thank you letters/emails after interviews are not a thing.
      2) Reference checks, most UK companies now just ask for employment confirmation via HR.

      1. Erika22*

        I’m looking at project or programme coordinator/manager jobs in the charity sector and anything even tangentially related to education (probably another mark against me as a candidate). I’ve started looking at universities here as well, since they’re such big employers.

        I’ve really only been looking for just under a month and I know it can take AGES to find a job – I just hate not knowing if I’m actively doing something to turn employers off.

        1. LDN Layabout*

          If you are happy working for a university, a good way to get in can be the temporary staff banks (I know you’ve said you can be fussy about positions, but if you want to fill some time, it’s not a bad idea, especially if you don’t want to sign up for a standard temp agency). Also some local/national government education jobs.

          Are you clear in your applications about your right to work in the UK?

          1. Erika22*

            Thank you for those suggestions! I’m also looking at taking some classes with my free time, but if another month goes by and I’m still hearing crickets I’ll look at that.

            Usually the applications have the box to check about having the right to work in the UK, and I also restate it in the cover letter. I hope it’s not some Brexit wariness about hiring non-UK residents. :shrug: we’ll see!

          2. Grandma Mazur*

            Just to add to this, my experience has been that if you are working for a uni in a temporary capacity, you may then see, and be entitled to apply for, jobs that are only open internally at first (if unfilled, they would then be readvertised externally)…

    2. Jemima Bond*

      You probably know this but if a job advertisement requests your CV, don’t send a resume, they aren’t the same thing.
      In cover letters and emails with prospective employers it strikes me that one or two things in Alison’s language are a bit more….voluble than would fly in the UK? I feel like “love” and “excited” are a bit too emotional/in your face here. Keen or interested would be better than excited.
      I wonder if it would be worth finding out UK equivalents for qualifications/education/training so you can build that into your CV/application forms? For instance here we don’t have GPAs or associate’s degrees, and there are bound to be other things where your light might be hidden under a bushel because a UK recruiter doesn’t appreciate how good you are – if you have a masters from one of the top rated universities in that area then point that out; they might not know. Have you got a uk friend you could run your cv by and say, is there anything on here that you don’t get?

      1. Erika22*

        Yup, I CV-ified my resume before moving, and a few recruiters I’ve talked to said it looked good (though it can’t hurt to give it a once-over!)

        This is the kind of thing I was concerned about – my partner raised his eyebrows at a little of the language in my first cover letters (though that particular job listing used the word “ninja” somewhere so I wasn’t too worried.) I still use “I’m excited to apply” as the first line of my cover letter, so I should probably tone that down at least.

        How concerned are employers about A levels and things pre-university? I’m never sure how to address that aside from describing my relevant experience.

        1. Jemima Bond*

          I think considering you are not going for your first job then I wouldn’t worry about pre-university exams. If an application form calls for it then work put an equivalent but within the civil service when asked for relevant training/qualifications I put those in reverse chronological order with my degree last and stop there.

    3. misspiggy*

      Many jobs don’t require cover letters, but will have an online application form instead. There will be a section where you have to outline why you think you’re right for the job. You usually start with one general statement about why you match what they need, and then go through the job description and skill requirements bit by bit making your case. It’s more like an essay than a cover letter, needing quite specific evidence. You’d normally end it with a statement of why you want the job and what enthuses you about it.

      1. Erika22*

        This is super helpful, thank you! That’s what I noticed and where I was getting thrown off. Now I’m thinking I didn’t address enough specifics of the job description in previous applications. So it is normal for these cover letter/essays to feel really long? I can’t imagine hiring managers actually reading through all of my examples.

        1. MJ*

          Hi, no cover letter or CV unless specifically requested. Address the job spec step by step within the space given on the application form. If you are going for the charity sector, the applications will be read by a voluntary board in a lot of cases – they will mark each answer against the job spec. If there are a lot of applications, this will make their lives so much easier. Also no thank you notes. Good luck.

          1. SpoutShaper*

            Yes – as people above have said, in this sector these can be very long and very specific. E.g the job specification says ‘advanced teapot spout shaping’; you put ‘5 years experience as lead spout shaper, delivering 72 spouts weekly including our specialist green tea spout; put forward for ‘What Pot?’’s young shaper of the year award by my manager.’
            If you imagine a very stressed hiring manager desperate to find the person that best meets their job spec and write for them, you get the idea.

            1. Erika22*

              Thank you both! This is super helpful, as I would never have thought to write such a long and specific explanation for a job application. I definitely have some writing and rewriting to do before submitting my next application.

  119. shortstack*

    Our self-assessment for performance reviews is today and I’m dreading it. If it were a more open-ended process where we could just talk about our achievements, that would be so bad, but I work for a Very Large Software Company that does things in Very Big Company Ways. I have 11 different categories of things that are all considered competencies of my job, and I need to rank myself on each one, plus then give an explanation for each one. Ugh.

    1. Argh!*

      Studies have shown that people rate themselves higher than their bosses rate them, and that men rate themselves higher than women do. Give yourself props and big pats on the back!

    2. BadWolf*

      I am an average deprecating female person and I’ve learned to pick a ranking and then bump it up one or 2 (depending on the scale. On a 5 pt, I bump up 1. On a 10 point, I bump 2-3). It feels scary, but I think it is closer to either reality (whether closer to truth or to what many men probably pick, can be left for debate).

      Basically, if its a 5 pt scale, and my gut says, 3, I put down 4.

    3. Thlayli*

      I gave myself max in everything and told my boss it was up to him to tell me where I’d gone wrong and it wasn’t my job to talk myself out of a raise. He laughed and I only got marked down below max in a couple of categories.

  120. rubyrose*

    So…it was announced a couple of days ago that my division is being sold to another company, one that is more closely aligned with what we do. I’ve been through two previous buyouts and the concept does not scare me. Because of the nature of this business, I know we all have jobs.

    What is concerning me are the comments on Glassdoor about the new company. No raises, high medical, no advancement, unlimited PTO (I’ve never known that to work for anyone). I know you can’t believe everything on Glassdoor, but this is a very large company, there are a large number of comments, and maybe 1% of them are positive to the company.

    I’m not going to do anything drastic, like looking for another job right now. I will wait to see exactly what the company presents as their benefits. I will get my resume updated. My question to this group: under similar circumstances, what were your thought processes about when to put the feelers out? What made you finally say it’s time to go?

    I have to get back to work and will check responses later. Thanks in advance.

    1. Persimmons*

      I worked for a company purchased by a European company in the same genre, but not a direct competitor at the time. They segued into our field by absorbing us.

      I knew it was time to leave when, after the dust settled, it was clear that we were being held to a very different standard and used as a dumping ground for anything they didn’t want to deal with. Our PTO and sick days were slashed to the bone from what they had been during independent ownership, despite the fact that European employees had incredibly generous benefits. We were reprimanded for not getting X thing done quickly enough in August, when the entire European office was closed for summer holiday for three weeks and left us with no support.

  121. Candy*

    I could use some tips for wording an email:

    My husband works in building. He’d been doing contract work for a real estate developer since January, then left on vacation three weeks ago. He’ll be back from vacation next week. Before he left, the company said they had to technically lay him off so they could pay him out his vacation pay but that he should contact them when he’s back about returning to work for them. My husband says he’s guaranteed work when he returns, but as English is his third language, I don’t want to assume that’s what the guys said exactly. In any case, my husband wants me to help him word an email saying basically that he’s back in town and ready to work.

    I’m thinking something short and sweet like, “Hi [Real Estate Developer], I’m coming back from vacation on Thursday and am available to work starting next week. Would you like me to come in on Monday to discuss bringing me back on board?”

  122. Trina*

    I’ve been off all week with what I suspect is depression. I’m seeking help for it, but suppressing it for awhile just kind of caught up to me in a pretty dramatic fashion.

    I don’t know what to tell my coworkers when I come back. I very rarely take sick days, and if I do, it’s only one here or there, so I know they’re going to question it and likely be concerned. I don’t want to lie, but I’m not really ready to be open about it either. Fortunately, I’m not worried about my supervisor. He’s not one to question sick time, and I think I’ll end up telling him anyway. Given the nature of my work, there are some projects that have the potential to be really triggering and others that do not, so I want to talk to him about focusing on the latter right now. It’s just my actual co-workers.

    I’m hoping I can say something like “I’d rather not discuss the specifics, but I’m getting treatment for it.” I realize there’s no perfect answer here, but I’m wondering if anyone has experiences or suggestions that could help. Thank you!

    1. thunderbird*

      I think a generally vague answer will suffice. It was something that caught me off guard and hit hard, I really wasn’t feeling well all week/longer recovery than I anticipated. I don’t think you need to mention treatment either. If you want to give more (but vague) details I often go with an intense bout of general malaise.

    2. DaniCalifornia*

      It’s perfectly fine to be vague. You don’t owe anyone details beyond that you were sick. “Thanks for your concern, but I’m glad to be back and getting over it.” is all that’s needed if anyone did ask or inquire as to how you were feeling.

      I’ve been there. It’s hard to get into specifics without the possibility of having to backtrack later. Sometimes in the midst of it, it seems even harder. You aren’t lying to say “Thanks but I’m recovering” because you were/are unwell and have sought out self care for yourself.

      If you haven’t seen this blog by Captain Awkward it might be helpful in some ways. I know it was for me: https://captainawkward.com/2013/02/16/450-how-to-tighten-up-your-game-at-work-when-youre-depressed/

    3. LQ*

      “I don’t know I felt really horrible. I’m going to the doctor. Not contagious but ugh. I don’t even want to think about it. How about them TPS reports?”
      I think as soon as you say “I’d rather not discuss specifics” some people get their gossipy hackles up. At least when I’m in a bad place I don’t want to even deal with that so just a generic, “I felt horrible.” or “I felt so bad all I did is sleep.” “There were a couple days I couldn’t even manage to get up to make food.” (Which…all may have the added benefit of being true, just not exactly in the way your coworkers might imagine.) “It was a blur of sleep and half watched netflix. Did you know the …discuss netflix show.” Can be a good way to deflect it away without having to deal with it. If you suspect you are going to have to take more time you can similarly deflect those too. “The doctors wanted to do more tests to make sure I’m ok, I don’t even know, shrug, I’m mostly feeling better but I’m still having some really off days.”

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        This is a great strategy. Keep it casual, like it’s the flu or something.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        And, “That spot is at home, which is the only acceptable place to be flossing.”

  124. Bagpuss*

    Not a question but a rant. (WARNING – TOTALLY GROSS)…

    Today I had to clean up someone else’s blood from our carpet and stairway this morning.
    (Me, because we don’t have on site cleaning staff and I am the most senior person here -and there are some things you can’t expect an employee to do. )

    I do get that it was as embarrassing as hell for the woman concerned, but… in that situation, if you had had a disastrous leakage in someone else’s office, would you not at least offer to clean up yourself?

    I’m not normally very squeamish but I have my limits :(

    2. wayward*

      A menstrual blood leak on the carpet and stairway sounds pretty extreme — I could understand like a chair or a couch….

        1. Happened to me*

          It could be because it happened to me, at home thank goodness and on the kitchen floor. There’s all kinds of reasons that can happen, will spare y’all the details.

    3. Subscriptionsmayvary*

      Blood is considered a biohazard. So if there is no one to clean it up, and the original owner can’t clean it up, then either block off the area, or get gloves.

      We had a lady accidently pee on the managers chair (laughing too hard while very pregnant).

      Accidents are just that. But why wouldn’t someone who could clean up themselves do it?

    4. Girl friday*

      I cut my foot enough that it made a fairly big mess at home and at work last week and did not even feel it until I took off my shoe. Some people bleed freely from scratches like me- I just needed a bandaid. I hope you followed guidelines for cleaning it. And definitely say, “Hey, you made a mess, are you ok?” Just to stem the flow of vampires that inevitably follow. A teaspoon of blood looks like a lot. Worrying about its orgin is probably odd, no offense. :)

    5. ag47*

      Oh my gosh, I had something similar happen. A co-worker had a mason jar of kombucha that exploded, causing shards of glass to shoot out everywhere. One embedded in her foot–she was wearing sandals–which bled PROFUSELY. The blood mixed with the kombucha creating a massive flood of blood/kombucha mix all over the office. Co-worker in question left pretty much right after to get stitches in her foot at an urgent care center.

      Our boss was out of the office that day. The office manager (who had been there longer but wasn’t above me hierarchy-wise) insisted that I clean it up. I refused, seeing as (1) blood is a biohazard and (2) literally the only cleaning supplies we had were paper towels and dishsoap which seemed woefully inadequate. This went back and forth for a while where she kept telling me it was my job to clean up the mess and I kept telling her there was no way I was going to do that. I wanted to call our building manager to send someone to clean it, and she kept saying it wasn’t appropriate to ask our custodian staff to clean up blood (?) Finally we called the building management team who (lo and behold) had people specifically trained to clean up blood and other biohazards and had the equipment to do so. Office manager told the cleaning staff multiple times that she was sorry they had to clean it up since I was supposed to have done it.

      I’m not sure how it would have resolved if we didn’t have a responsive building manager. But there was no way I was going to clean it up with dish soap and paper towels.

    6. Thlayli*

      Was it a miscarriage? I can’t imagine a menstrual blood leakage being so bad as you run down your legs to get to the carpet!

      1. Windchime*

        I used to have periods so bad that I would faint and need blood transfusions so yeah, it can get that bad.

  125. Savannnah*

    At what point is it time to start looking for a new job in a different field? My husband and I moved out to Portland for his promotion and transfer and I left a 90k manager position in a pretty niche field on the east coast. Financially and geographically it was the right decision for us and I told my husband it would take me up to a year to find a new position. But its been over 4 months now and I’m job searching but there is almost nothing to apply for- let alone get to the interviewing stage. I’ve sent out 4 applications since moving here and some of those were for stretch jobs. As far as I can tell my field does exist out here but the job market is super small, there are probably 15-20 people doing the work I’m doing between Oregon and Washington. I scrubbed my resume this week and took out all of the field specific language and I do have some transferable skills but I’ve also been pretty driven in my pursuit of this field so even my high school and college age jobs are in this specific field. I was thinking I could get a shift job in the meantime while I look for a career job but I’ve never worked any type of retail, customer service, basic admin or in restaurants. I don’t think the move was a mistake but I’m wondering when its time to reevaluate and how to do so.

    1. Nanc*

      Welcome to the Pacific Northwest. You might take a gander at the Occupation and Wage Information for the State of Oregon Employment Department (link below) and see what comes up. It’s possible what you do is simply called something different in our neck of the woods and if nothing else, you might find a different area where your skills apply. Good luck!

      https://www.qualityinfo.org/jc-oprof/?at=1&t1=~000000~4101000000~0~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~none~0~1~1

    2. LQ*

      If you were a people manager, a lot of manager skills can and should shift to another management kind of role, I don’t know that you need to do that kind of radical jump to I’ll work in a restaurant. What about connecting with recruiters? Your field may have been niche but every field has people who do just straight up management and supervisory roles. If your role had planning and such that’s a thing too. If it was project management rather than people management then…just manage a different kind of projects. Are there friends of your field out there, like field adjacent? Start reaching out to people either in that niche (if you love it and are really super committed) and having coffee and talking to them about the field in your new area, if it’s really that niche just connecting with someone new beyond the 20 other people might be nice, even if they don’t know of a 21st opening, they might have ideas. Look at the resumes of those 20 people, or people from your previous job and see where they came from, or people who have been in your job and left where did they go? Is there a way you can do your niche work remotely? Does your niche have a professional association.

    3. Subscriptionsmayvary*

      If there are 15-20 people doing the work, is there any way you can reach out to them to network and get some insight to the job market, or identify positions adjacent? Also, look at hospitals for possible jobs. In my county my hospital is the 13th largest employer, with two other hospitals in the top 25 list.

      Plus are any of your skills applicable to jobs that you can do offsite? Maybe widen your job search to out of state, where you might have to check in monthly in person, but do the bulk of the work at home.

  126. Nacho*

    Applying for an internal promotion to office manager, so wish me luck. It’ll be a lot more work, but it would mean getting something on my resume besides Customer Service jobs. That means if I ever wanted/had to leave my company, I wouldn’t have to take an entry level position with a 30% pay cut because higher level CS positions like what I’ve got now are almost always internal promotions.

  127. Rez123*

    Who to ask as a reference?
    I’ve graduated 5 years ago and I’m on my second job. I’m going to start applying for a new job soon and I’d like to get references on order, but not sure who to ask. I don’t want to ask my current manager or grandmanager. The manager form my previous job has passed away, while I have worked with the current manager and I’m fairly certain he would agree and give a positive reference. He is a nice guy but not the most professional and can be very awkward in anything business related (small company, everyone manages themselves). My other work experience is unrelated to my field. So should I use same levels colleagues? Even if I used my former boss I should have some in my back pocket in case they want more than one.

    1. Thlayli*

      One reference from your last job (since your line manager has passed on, pick whoever else makes most sense). It seems like before that you were studying so your college reference would still be appropriate at this stage.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        Agree. Doesn’t matter if the references are from unrelated fields; with a reference I personally am looking primarily for qualitative information about how the candidate behaves, works, and is to work with. If I can get specific information about things that are relevant to the job, that’s ideal, but it’s not required such that I wouldn’t understand if you only had references from unrelated fields.

        1. rez123*

          Well the unrelated jobs were at a hospital ward where I worked alone so my actual manager works in an office so they have never seen me work, I just substituted when the actual person was on holiday so not many days at a time. Also my other work experiece during college was in a large company that had tens of trainees every year and it has almost been 10 years. I highly doubt he remembers me. I do know some others there that do remember me, but I feel kind of weird about giving a reference to a place when I was a teenager. Are college references really still appropriate eventhough I’ve graduated 6 years ago?

          I appreciate your responses and not trying to slam the advice. Just feeling very awkward about this. No one has ever asked for a reference when I’ve applied so trying to figure the optimal people that are appropriate and that they wouldn’t be weird about it.

  128. PandaCat*

    I’m applying for a new job due to several factors, most prominently being mental health–I’m currently a banker, and I was the victim teller in a robbery. It did a number on my sense of security and I already have an anxiety disorder. My worry is that I don’t want to say that’s why I’m leaving, given the stigma against mental health issues, but I’m worried that I’ll look like a job hopper otherwise. My job history is currently 2.5 years retail, 1 month at a temp factory job, and 2 years at the bank. Any advice?

    A more minor issue, I have a vacation planned in November to visit my long distance girlfriend. I can cancel if I have to–she understands and I haven’t put any money down. But I’d like to go if my (hopefully new) job can accommodate it. When/how are good times/ways to bring it up?

    Thank you so much for taking the time to answer.

    1. Wren*

      I don’t think that anyone would blink an eye at “I was a teller and was robbed at gunpoint” as a reason to leave a job. That would make anyone anxious about their position, disorder or not.

      2. Thlayli*

        Exactly. You don’t need to be mentally ill to want to leave a job after that! No one is going to assume you have a mental illness – that’s a perfectly valid reason to want to leave a job.

    2. Tara R.*

      Are you applying to another bank? If not, you could just say you’re looking to try something new– 2 years is a pretty decent stay, especially at a customer service type job.

      I hope you’re doing ok! You might be able to get some mental health care paid for by the bank, if you ask– I know the place I worked at provided free counselling to anyone involved in a robbery type situation.

    3. Nacho*

      I would focus on the safety issues vs the mental health issues. Like Wren said, being robbed at gunpoint is a valid reason to leave a job whether or not it does anything to your mental health.

    4. Persimmons*

      Without knowing further detail, I’d leave the temp factory job off the resume. One 2.5-year job and one 2-year job isn’t terrible as far as job hopping.

      Since you will be asked why you’re leaving, I’d say something like “I really enjoy my job and my coworkers, but I was held up in a robbery and I need a fresh start away from that terrible memory.” That is a rare enough and violent enough situation that I don’t think explaining your overall anxiety is necessary.

    5. gecko*

      I’m sorry!!! That’s awful.

      As someone below said, if you’re asked a “why did you leave your job” question–“I was actually the victim teller in a bank robbery, and I needed a change of scene. This position really appealed to me because it…[has a similar amount of challenge and customer-facing work / is also a teller job, which I really love].”

      My guess is, if you move the conversation back to the interview stuff of “why do you want this job,” there won’t be much follow-up! They’re looking for red flags like “I left because I always disagreed with my manager on what to do,” or “nobody liked me there,” or “I didn’t like that I had to work 40 hours a week,” or whatever. At most I think you’d get curiosity from a non-bank position, or another question to pin down whether you know you might still be at risk from a bank position.

    6. AnotherAlison*

      Agree with others who say interviewers will be understanding that you wanted a “change of scene” after the robbery. My spouse was a customer in the bank during a robbery, and people are usually horrified when he tells the story. Most people imagine it to be a traumatic experience. Good luck!

    7. SpaceNovice*

      Definitely go with what everyone else says–just stick to the fact that you experienced a bank robbery as a teller and are looking for a change in scenery. Also, the way potential employers will respond to that is an excellent tell for what kind of people they are–you’ll get a good indication of if they’re empathetic or if they’re complete jerks. I’m so sorry you had to go through that, though.

    8. LilySparrow*

      Wanting to quit working somewhere you were the victim of an armed robbery is not a mental health issue. I’m not disputing your diagnosis, I just mean that anybody might feel the same way. It’s a totally understandable and reasonable reaction.

    9. Friday afternoon fever*

      On the vacation part—bring it up at the offer stage as a scheduling consideration (like, ‘I’ve already got this planned; can we work around that?’ Super normal) unless they ask earlier.

  129. Persephone Mulberry*

    I have a job offer coming (I got an email from the hiring manager asking to schedule a time to talk next Monday, the intent of the call is clear in the email). Buuuut I think I don’t really want to take it? I’m unemployed, if I didn’t have anything else on the horizon I’d take it and be satisfied even though it’s not really what I want to be doing.

    BUT I had a phone screen this past Monday for a job that is much more in line with my mid to long term career goals, and it went AMAZING. The second job’s recruiter said they would “hopefully” get back to me today or early next week, which with the holiday coming up could easily mean the end of next week.

    Should I contact the second job ASAP? Should I wait until after I’ve gotten the offer terms? Should I contact the second job at all? I feel like it’s too early in their process to ask them to hurry up, so all I’d really be getting is confirmation, maybe, that I’m on the short list for an in person interview.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Yes. Tell Job B that you’re a finalist for Job A, but that you are more interested in the role with their organization and ask for an update. You’re right that all they can give you is (maybe) a heads up that you are or are not moving forward, but that’s still important information.

      I think you can also ask for a full week to consider Job A, given the holiday.

      That still probably won’t get you to a place where you could have an offer from Job B in time to turn Job A down, but the more time and information you get the better you can make the decision. Push comes to shove you can be honest with Job A: you’re a finalist for another position and want to let that play out.

    2. Boredatwork*

      +1 since you have a recruiter, give them a heads up. I was once offered a job on the spot because I had another offer on the table.

  130. kimonawhim*

    I am an admin to the General Counsel of our company, I am a licensed attorney myself, but took this job for various personal reasons (long story), have been here almost 2 years and really expanded my responsibilities beyond what I was hired to do. I have been trying to come up with a way to evolve and advance in my role, but haven’t made many concrete steps in that direction.

    My boss actually heads two departments, one large and one small. My role is primarily in relation to the smaller one. However, his Chief of Staff running the larger one has abruptly resigned and myself and another person on our team (very senior to me, but not my direct manager) have been tasked with the replacement search. After feeling me out about my interest level, she has recommended me to take over the position. I am very interested, but now they are talking about setting up actual internal interviews and it’s all becoming real and I am freaking out a little. This would be a huge promotion, I want it and I know I could be amazing at it, but I haven’t even formally applied and I am already starting to spin out with imposter-syndrome anxiety.

    1. misspiggy*

      Good luck! I try to pretend it’s just an acting role, it’s not real, I’m just acting the part of someone competent enough to apply and rock the job.

    2. Girl friday*

      Idk if pro-tems ever get promoted into the position itself, but maybe doing it pro-tem would be more accessible to you.

    3. anonagain*

      “I am freaking out a little.”

      That seems normal, if unpleasant. You want this job, so you are nervous about the interview. You also actually understand what the job entails. You care about doing a good job. You are taking this seriously.

      I think there are lots of us who feel anxious in these kinds of situations. I know for myself, eagerness and excitement can take on a nervous edge, which quickly becomes full blown anxiety.

      I once worked with someone who was extremely incompetent and not aware of it. One of the most surreal parts of that experience was how much they didn’t freak out about this kind of thing. They didn’t understand how difficult a new role or project was and how unequipped they were to handle it.

      I don’t know you but I’m quite sure that you aren’t a totally incompetent person who has duped everyone into thinking you can do this job. I suspect the people you work with aren’t that dumb and that you aren’t that good at acting.

      Anxiety is a liar. It’s going to keep lying. That doesn’t change that you are good at what you do and your senior colleagues recognize that.

  131. TheLiz*

    Has anybody got any advice about applying to a German political “think-tank” as a scientific advisor (in Germany)? Before I moved here I was looking into civil service/government scientific advice as a career, but that’s not a thing in most of the EU outside medicine and agriculture. It looks like the think-tanks develop policies and scope out their feasibility, so that’s where I should look, but it’s a big, scary leap so any help/advice would be appreciated.

    2. LabTech*

      The ACS job board has some listings (link in next comment). Also not quite what you’re looking for, but there’s a blog I’ve found informative – search “chemjobber.” It’s about the chemistry job market centers around academia, but also has some industry job listings (decent overlap with ACS listings, though).

  133. Julie*

    I’m applying to a different department in our medium sized company. I know the hiring manager, but not super well. If I were writing an email to him, I would address him by his first name. However, applications are done through a specific form that first goes through HR and I’m not sure if I should address the cover letter to Tyrion, Tyrion Lannister, or something else entirely like VP of Teapots: Tyrion Lannister.

    Anyone have any ideas on the least awkward way to go about this.

    1. gecko*

      I think you should address your cover letter formally, send in your application, etc, but email the hiring manager personally and more casually. “Hi John, I just applied for the Big Spreadsheet Analyst position on your team, and wanted to give you a heads up. It was good to see you at the Spreadsheets Club Gala this winter!”

      1. Julie*

        That could work. It bridges the formal/friendly gap well. Thanks for weighing in on this!

  134. Jennifer*

    Well, I found out that our new head boss doesn’t like me either and also thinks I’m horrible.
    Yaaaaaaaaaaaay, another office enemy!
    *sigh*
    I am really tired of having my behavior nitpicked around here and the slightest of things being offensive.

  135. HereKittyKitty*

    I got a raise last week! It is the smallest of small raises, but it will make a small favorable difference in my budget, so I will take it. It’s like an extra 2k a year.

    My company is rapidly growing, and have just now figured out they were hitting a plateau and that they would need to spend more, to make more. I hope that in the next year this translates to a larger raise for myself. I have 4 bosses that debate on raises, but basically 2 bosses are the main decision makers. Boss 1 attempted to negotiate a bigger raise, Boss 2 pushed back saying I would need to prove myself in a leadership roll in order to get an additional raise :/ We are hiring a new person, I am in charge of them, so hopefully I can show whatever it is Boss 2 wants and get another raise.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I got a .74% raise this year.

      ^^^ please note the decimal point. Woo?

  136. Menacia*

    I completed my Bachelor’s degree at the ripe old age of 53! Had started the process many years ago, but with moves, and my field being a little lax when it comes to formal education (I’m in IT where experience trumps education) so I took some courses here and there over the years until 5 years ago when I made it a goal. So here I am five years later with that degree in hand. I’m glad I did it because now I have that final piece to add to my resume to start the job hunt. To all of you contemplating going back to school, I can’t recommend it enough. I did all my coursework online, studied for and tested out of some courses, and worked my butt off, but the confidence I now have made it so worth it!

    6. Paquita*

      I finished my associate degree at 51. Would like to go further but money. Also I don’t use my degree. But I HAVE IT! You (general you) are never to old to go to school. There was a local 92 year old woman who graduated with her Associates recently.

    9. Hamburke*

      Congrats! My grandmother completed her PhD at age 73. Granted, by that time, she was doing it for herself and not seeking employment but she started undergrad at age 16 in 1937.

  137. anon for this one*

    I was wondering if any of you have any advice for me: I’m a freelance in a manual labor-type job and I’m working on acquiring more clients. I had someone recommend me to a new potential client, and after a couple of times that I provided the required services, this new client ghosted me and then, after I reached out to schedule the next appointment (as we had agreed), he told me he had decided to look for another professional to do the job. Fair enough, I’m not angry about that, as I realize clients can choose who they want, I mean that :)

    The problem lies with me: this has happened maybe a couple of times, I have other customers who are very happy with my services, but I can’t help feeling like crap and questioning my competence, what did I do wrong, will this person badmouth me to other potential clients, etc… it’s like a shame spiral where I feel massively incompetent. This has no client-facing consequences by the way, as I handled the thing professionally and respectfully (I’d rather know if the clients doesn’t want to work with me anymore, I had a client ghost me once and it was very annoying and disrespectful).

    I’d like to avoid these negative thoughts… any advice is welcome! Thank you.

    1. Plague of frogs*

      Uggghh, I’m sorry. Unwanted thoughts suck.

      I frequently used to think that I was fat. I put an end to it by saying to myself, as soon as the thought came into my head, “I am a healthy weight.” I didn’t get in a big arguing match with myself, I just stated the truth plainly to myself and then let the unwanted thought drift away.

      You might say “I am good at my job, to the point where clients recommend me to their friends.” Think back to a time when you felt particularly competent, to re-enforce the thought.

      And to state what you already know (but sometimes it’s nice to hear it from an outsider), not every client is going to work out. They might need something slightly different from what you’re offering, or they may not like you (not everyone is going to like everyone!), or they may even want someone who does a less good job for cheaper.

      Back when I cleaned houses, I lost clients who liked it really flawlessly clean, and I lost clients who liked a quick job that just made things look a little better. I landed somewhere in the middle, and luckily most of my clients did too…but not all.

      1. anon for this one*

        Thank you so much! Since you mentioned it… that’s what I do for a living too :) I really like to have the perspective of someone who did this job, as there are not many people here that have that kind of experience (at least apparently! Because if there are, I really want to hear from you and maybe start a support group :P)

        1. Plague of frogs*

          Oh, I’m glad I replied to you! Yes, house cleaning is HUGELY subjective, so I really hope you can let clients go without feeling incompetent.

          I remember one client (I came to her recommended by others also) who told me that she had never found a cleaner to suit her. She wanted me to scrub all her already-spotless baseboards with Murphy’s oil soap. I did it to the best of my ability, but she didn’t keep me.

          1. anon for this one*

            Oh dear. I once had someone call my “boss” (one of my clients is a cleaning company that calls me when they are short-staffed) because she claimed I didn’t clean her bathroom and it smelled of pee. I went back and this person had confused the smell of black soap with pee stench. Like, you have stone and wood everywhere, did you expect me to clean with regular floor cleaner and ruin everything?

    2. Thlayli*

      It’s not necessarily anything you did wrong. There could be a million reasons. a personality conflict. They realised you remind them of someone they don’t like. You let slip some info on your personal politics or views that they disagree with. They just don’t like the look of you. They got recommended someone from a friend. Their friends nephew just started in your field. Someone else was cheaper. There are a million reasons. There’s absolutely no reason to think it was because of you not being good at your job.

      1. anon for this one*

        In this case unfortunately it was a matter of the client thinking I wasn’t cleaning good enough. But yes, those other factors you mentioned could definitely be at play! BTW after writing this post I cleaned at another client’s and she was very pleased and also offered me tea and cookies before I left. Self-esteem boost!

  138. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

    Any thoughts on deciding whether to leave a job you like for a possible great opportunity?

    I’m currently working on a job that I quite like, with a reasonable company. The downsides are that pay is not so great and it’s in a different city from where my husband is working, but on the other hand that means I’m actually living in the house we own and able to do stuff like gardening on the weekends, etc. But we’ve been living apart except for weekend visits since January, and I think it is taking a toll on his mental health in particular.

    Recently I was contacted by someone I met at a professional development event last year asking if I’d be interested in applying for a new position they are creating. The new thing will probably pay quite a bit more, it’s in the same city as my husband, and I’d be involved in a new method they are developing. It would be a career progression for me in terms of learning a mostly new-to-me area of my field that is likely to become increasingly important, and depending on how they envision the role it might be an outright promotion. They haven’t quite worked out the details yet but I should find out next week.

    Both jobs are fixed-term contracts. My current position is on a project that is in reality many times more work than was originally envisioned, and it could potentially go on for many months; however, it is equally possible that due to the cost the developer might find a way to pull the plug and stop work in the next couple of weeks. It is expected that there will be more work but nothing is official (par for the course in this field).

    The new job would be at least 6 months, but they are talking about starting in two weeks. They have acknowledged that this might not be enough notice. I’d like to stay at my current job until the project is finished if it turns out to be only another 4-6 weeks of work. Right now they don’t really have enough staff and I don’t want to leave them in the lurch because I’m sure I will be looking for work with them again in the future. If possible I’d also want to take a few days if not a week off between projects, so that I can move from one city to the other.

    Any advice or thoughts? Would it be a mistake to ask about starting a month or so late? Is it better to prioritize future skills and possible career growth or developing stability and a longer-term job that may or may not materialize?

    1. SpaceNovice*

      Definitely go interview at the other place! Even if you don’t get it, you’ll learn more about the area you want to move into. If you DO get it, you can have a conversation about when to start and figure out what works with you. Just be open and honest that you don’t want to leave your current employer in a lurch. If they say no anyway, it might be a red flag depending on why. Very rarely do you go from talking about interviewing to your first day in under two weeks, especially if background investigations take place. Especially if there are other rounds of interviews.

      Get more info, but the second job sounds like a better opportunity and is better for your career. Your company wouldn’t stick their neck out for you, so why stick out your neck for them?

  139. Over 50 and severely underemployed*

    I’m 51. Am I just spinning my wheels responding to job ads? Isn’t it pretty much futile at this point? I think I’m going to have to just hope I can find some consulting work. Please, anyone 50 and older–any success stories?

    1. beanie beans*

      I hope it’s not futile! You have so much experience! I’m 40, so I don’t have any success stories, just want to offer encouragement!

    2. London Calling*

      Yes. Early last year my temp agency sent me to an interview for a job with a large event management company to cover the accounts payable – the person who had been doing it has been told that his probationary period wasn’t being extended. I interviewed on the Friday, started on the Monday and have done so well that if I want to I have a job here until I retire and as long as I want past that. CFO (my ultimate boss) loves me and my immediate manager has said several times that since I started work she can actually sleep at night and doesn’t lie awake worrying about the AP function because I have it operating like clockwork. My annual appraisal was either 95% or 96% out of a 100, and the entire company knows that they can come to me and I’ll help out. Even if I don’t stay here I have a very desirable CV with this experience.

      I started in this job aged 63 and I’m 64 in a couple of days. At 51 you have YEARS and another 10-15 years is far too long to sit at a desk and just spin your wheels.

    6. Grace Less*

      Several of my company’s recent new hires (in a variety of departments and levels) appear to be over 50. It’s adding some nice balance because as a company that grew quickly, the “older” employees tended to very long-term, and we were lacking perspective from people who had experience in the way other firms operated.

  140. C*

    To any other self-employed folks who started as a one-person shop, but eventually grew to start hiring other employee(s): What were the signals that you used to realize that it was time to make that leap? What questions did you ask yourself to figure out if it was right? (And I’m thinking about the decision to actually put someone on payroll, not just using subcontractors.)

    I’m not quite there yet. But as I grow my consulting business, I want to be prepared for what might come down the line – and how to know. When I was in management at a small firm owned by someone else, I remember coming up with the mantra that “By the time you are 100% sure you need another person, it’s too late.” It always felt like we waited too long after the first inkling to pull the trigger on hiring, and everyone was overextended for a while before the new person came on board. But it feels a whole lot different when you’re not just the manager, but the owner looking at making that first hire. Wondering of the hive has insights and wisdom to share. Thank you!

    1. LuckySophia*

      When I started out solo (as an Account Manager/Copywriter) it got to where I was spending half a day out of the office in client meetings, and the other half in the office dealing with phones, mail, writing checks, FedEx-ing stuff, opening & logging projects, doing invoicing… and the actual copywriting (billable hours) got relegated to “every evening/most weekends”.) So I hired a front-office person to do the admin stuff, and a year later brought in a junior writer. Was my hiring”already too late”?….absolutely!!! Those two hires barely moved the needle on my own workload, because the business was growing faster than I could staff & train for it. Subsequently I hired two really STELLAR people whom the clients loved…and then business REALLY grew by leaps & bounds, and I was still overextended, work-wise. Conversely, during that same period of time there were multiple small agencies locally who staffed up early & generously….and therefore did not survive the always-recurring periodic business downturns. Or only survived through massive layoffs. So there isn’t a “right” answer. It’s all down to your own risk tolerance. Do you want to be short on sleep because you’re working too late every night? Or short on sleep because you’re fretting about high overhead / meeting payroll / laying off good people? I’m sure there is a sweet spot somewhere between the two, but I never figured out a formula to identify it!

      1. C*

        That’s a great, encouraging story. No easy answers, but it’s really helpful to see through your eyes. Thank you for sharing.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      I am not self-employed, nor have I ever been, but your question prompted me to go to one of my favorite business books, Norm Brodsky and Bo Burlingham’s The Knack: how street smart entrepreneurs learn to handle whatever comes up. While they don’t provide a “key indicator” of the kind you might be seeking, they do pose some things that business owners need to consider before making a hire.

      Some of these things that might be relevant for you are (the italics that follow are my interpretation of the point):
      1. Business is a means to an end. Do a life plan before you make your business plan.       (In other words, what do you want to do with the time you’ll save by making another hire?)
      2. When you’re struggling with a problem, get an outside perspective to make sure you’ve identified the real one and come up with a solution that’s going to address it.
      3. When trying to move to the next level of sales, don’t assume you know all the factors that led to your initial success.       (Just make sure that the hire you want to make is going to solve the actual problem you have, and not the problem you think you have.)
      4. Growing a business is a matter of choice. Before deciding to grow, make sure you know why you’re doing it.
      5. For business advice, go to an experienced business owner, not your accountant or your lawyer.

      I hope you’ll come back here and let us know what you decided to do, and how it worked out. Good luck.

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        Could’ve SWORN I checked to be sure all the tags were in the right spots. Grrr.

        1. C*

          Thank you! That’s a great reference. I will add the book to my reading list. Sounds really helpful. It’s probably not going to be soon that I move beyond contractors, but it’s time to start planning strategically. I’m sure I’ll be back.

  141. Childless*

    I work in a small department where a few of the workers have young kids. I have started feeling resentful about how the workers who have kids get to enjoy privileges that the rest of us do not, such as getting to come in late and leave early all the time because they have to drop their kids off at daycare or pick them up. They are still considered full-time. Our job is public, so we can see those percentages. I also feel like some of them abuse privileges too, often taking a whole day off to take a kid to doctor’s appointments a couple times a month.

    Our standard work hours are 8.5 hours (including an hour lunch), but those with kids rarely work more than 7.5-8 hours (including an hour lunch). They always get in after me and leave either around the same time or before me. I just wish workplaces had flexible policies that applied fairly to everyone across the board to everyone.

    1. Boredatwork*

      I used to feel like this, then I replaced “daycare” with “gym” and started acting accordingly. It’s been 6 months and no one has said anything.

      1. EmilyAnn*

        2nd replacing it with “gym” or any other standing appointment. I think as the childless we don’t have anything to leave early for so you put in unnecessary hours. If possible, leave at the same time as those with childcare pick-up and see how it goes.

    2. Anne*

      I am in a similar situation. A couple idea. Schedule all of your appointments (e.g. dentist, flu shot) during work hours so you get that time off as well. I also do a lot of elder care for my mom. So I schedule her appointments during work hours too.

    3. En vivo*

      I’m also childless, and as Boredatwork does, I (matter-of-factly) replace ‘daycare’ with whatever is important to me. I don’t ask; I nicely tell. That’s how the moms do it.

    4. Anon now*

      I actually used to refer to my social obligations that required me to leave work promptly as “childcare issues” because I noticed a pattern where that was the always-acceptable reason. Everyone knew I was childless, but it drove home the point that it didn’t actually matter why I needed to leave. My life priorities were not less important because they didn’t involve kids. (And everyone just laughed when I said it and got the point. It wasn’t hostile in my delivery, just as casual as the parents.)

    5. Ann O.*

      They’re not privileges, and I think this is really important for people without family care responsibilities to understand. These are accommodations to enable parents to stay in the work force. Family care responsibilities are rigid. It is a society-level issue to deal with the society interest in having another generation of people.

      Now I do support flexible policies being applied fairly to everyone across the board. I work in tech where that is the norm, and the stories I read here about workplace time are often horrifying to me.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This is true, and there may be invisible ways that the parents are making up the time (at home, on the weekend, taking a pay cut). I negotiated all the allowable exemptions at my work after my first child – late start, work from home 1-2x a week, and part time status. It was either that or I’d have to quit. However, I tried to be very open about my deal so that other people in the office didn’t think I was taking advantage. We also did time cards so if anyone suspected/reported me for time card fraud given my less than 40 hrs/week in the office, that would have been a huge problem.

        But yeah, those benefits should be available to anyone who makes a case for it, whether that case is elder, self, sibling, spouse/partner, or child care. (Incidentally my aunt had to quit her job because “sibling care” didn’t qualify for flex consideration. She’s working to change that law now.)

  142. Pollygrammer*

    I got a call letting me know that I didn’t get a job that I wanted badly. That would be enough of a spectacular resume-builder that it would be worth an entirely terrible workplace, but seemed genuinely fun and friendly. After two interviews that both went really well. I had tried not to get my hopes up, not to count my chickens, but a little optimism had slipped though.

    He told me it was a very hard decision, I was great, they’d definitely be interested in reaching out if other positions opened up…but all I could really hear was “you’re not good enough.”

    Also why the HELL would you do this by phone? So now I’m at my current–terrible–job, trying not to cry and trying to remind myself that it’s not the end of the world. But…ugh. What a crap way to start the weekend.

    1. Kate Daniels*

      I am so sorry! It’s standard in our field for the in-person candidates to receive calls either way, and I have always felt like this was a horrible practice. Be kind to yourself this weekend, and I hope an even better opportunity comes along in the near future.

    2. Triplestep*

      I’m so sorry!

      “Call vs Email” came up as a topic here a few weeks ago (and probably other times, too.) I had a recruiter leave a message to call her, which got my hopes up, but it was followed by an e-mail saying I had not gotten the job. I am so glad I did not reach her by phone. It’s much better to get that news in an email. I’m sorry you had to pretend to be OK with the news.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        Yeah, and I’ll steel myself to write a real follow-up this weekend, thanking them all for their time and letting them know that I really would be interested in future openings.

        Still…ouch.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I’m sorry! I feel for you – I also just got a rejection email and like you, even you when you try not to count those chickens it’s hard not to imagine, just a little. I think we’ve all been /are there.

      Yes – I agree – email is a much better way to deliver this message.

    4. Kat in VA*

      I hate getting the “Sorry, you were good but not good enough” phone call. It’s bad enough to not get a job I really wanted, but my hopes are all up when I see the phone number, only to be slapped down with very disappointing news, and THEN I have to maintain my composure through the same stale platitudes and the “We will keep you in mind for future opportunities” speech (when they never, ever do) until I can get off the phone and freak out or cry or whatever.

      As Triplestep said, I hate even more when the recruiter leaves a message or sends an email to set up a time to “connect” and so you think OH BOY EEEEE THIS IS IT, only for them to go, mmmyeah, we’re giving the job to someone else.

      Just send me a quick, personal email* letting me know you’re moving on, and that way I can process it without having to simultaneously be polite and friendly (because I never burn bridges, no matter how ticked off I am) when all I want to do is burst into tears or throw my phone.

      *And please, for the love of all things, don’t tell me I lost out to an internal candidate or an employee referral. That’s going make me even more upset – because I put a lot of time and effort into interviewing just to hear “Gee, whiz, after ALL those candidates, the internal candidate/employee referral just HAPPENED to be the best pick!”

      Sure, right, mhmm. Thanks for wasting my time so you could tick a box that says “We interviewed other qualified candidates in order to justify choosing the one we knew we were going to pick all along.” I know that sounds bitter but I’ve had my hopes dashed twice now by two different companies that made it sound like it was all but in the bag after multiple phone and F2F interviews- only to get emails both times saying I’d been beaten out by the “sure thing” candidate that HR *already knew* they were going to hire. /eyeroll/

      1. Kat in VA*

        I forgot to add – I am still baffled as to why those HR recruiters thought it would be a good idea to let me know I’d lost out to the employee referral and the internal candidate (one of each). Why do you think that would make me feel better? It only makes me feel worse because I never had a chance in the first place and yeah, I let myself dream even though I always promise myself that I won’t get excited about a job until I have a SIGNED offer letter in my grubby little hands. D:

  143. Anon Preggo Worker*

    I’m 16 weeks pregnant today and I’ve been so tired this week that I’m having trouble being productive at work. All I’ve been able to do are my managerial duties, but everything else I find I can’t get the energy to do. I hate feeling like a bad, unproductive employee. I’ve only felt fatigued early on, like weeks 7-9 or so, then was feeling great, and I thought that the fatigue would be behind me at this point. This is my first pregnancy, and my work knows I’m pregnant.

    The fact that I’m a full-time remote worker helps, but also maybe hurts because it’s easier for me to take longer lunch breaks or just work from my couch, which then makes me sleepy. Does anyone have tips for being a good worker when you’re feeling like this for a few days in a row? (Note: I did have a check-up earlier this week and everything is fine, so no other medical issues at play that I know of).

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Could you maybe try something like the pomodoro technique? Where you set a timer for 20-25 minutes and work on a specific task for that period, then take a quick 5 minute break. Then repeat. During your break you could intentionally get up – take a quick walk around your home, get a drink, head to the bathroom, do some light stretching or something. Basically get on your feet and moving around regularly so you don’t start drifting off.

      1. Anne*

        Stay well-hydrated, eat every 3 hours, use scents to wake yourself up (peppermint), and use a standing desk. I have fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue and I am surprisingly *better* when not sitting.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          Peppermint isn’t good for pregnancy; it’s on the to-be-avoided list as far as I know. But citrus scents can be invigorating too.

            1. The Ginger Ginger*

              I was referring to the peppermint oil for scents, not the stuff you drink.

  144. Professional Merchandiser*

    Ugh!! I am so mad!! I work as a merchandiser for a large company and they do shake-ups every six months. January and July. At this time, they do lay-offs, reassign territories and make adjustments in employee status. Full-time to part-time, or the reverse. I’ve been with this company for six years so I’m used to this and have had my employee status changed three times. The last move took me from full-time to part-time. (26 hours a week.)That was okay with me because I’m wanting to wind down and possibly retire within the next year. Even though it meant I wouldn’t get paid holidays anymore, and no personal/sick days. Well, this week I got a call from my boss. They are increasing me to 33 hours a week and sending me to call on another store one state over. When I was told about this I asked if that meant I was back full-time. I was told no, that’s still considered part-time. Their definition of full-time is 37 and a half hours. So I get my hours increased, have to drive more, AND work another day during the week, (have been working only three days a week and loving it.) All without any more benefits. I told her the Dept of Labor considers anything over 30 hours to be full-time. My boss got real quite a for minute, and then hesitantly said’ “I don’t think they would do anything illegal….” so my question I guess, is, can I push back on this in any way? Do different states have different rules about what constitutes part-time? This company is based in Florida. Sorry for the long post, I’m just INFURIATED!!!! BTW, I don’t blame my boss for this, it wasn’t her decision and she is not the type to get offended when we state our opinions on things.

    1. WellRed*

      I think it varies by state, but I also think it’s likely that it’s what the employer considers to be full time vs. part time.

      1. Enough*

        I worked retail where 32 hours was considered full time. It was less about differences in benefits and more about the fact that outside of the Christmas season you would not be scheduled for more than 32 hrs a week.

    2. Enough*

      While the Dept of Labor may consider 30 hours full time that does not translate to specific requirements. There is no over reaching law that defines full time and what that requires of an employer.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Google Florida and your work hours question to get your answers. Companies often get the labor laws wrong. Changing things this drastically every 6 months sounds awful. Are employees happy to work there? Do employees get any say in the matter? My sympathies.

      1. Professional Merchandiser*

        I don’t know how happy employees are to be working here; we don’t have any meetings/conferences or any way to get to know other employees. I didn’t mind the move before this because I really wanted to be part-time, but I know that since I started, there has been a lot of turn-over. Our team was recruited from another company that shut down their merchandising team 6 years ago, and I am the only one still left. The only reason I have stayed was because they were the only merchandising company that offered paid vacation/sick time/personal days. But now that all that’s taken away there’s not much incentive to stay. Just makes me mad that they are increasing my hours but not restoring my benefits. And no, we don’t get any say in this. If you don’t agree to the terms you are considered terminated after —date. The message says you might be considered for unemployment, and will receive any accrued vacation time; but 1. What if you don’t get unemployment? It might get approved if your hours are cut, but if they’re increased? I can’t see that happening. I mean if they wanted you to work 60-80 hours a week, maybe, But to go from 26 hours to 33? I somehow think they would laugh in my face

  145. Anonymous for this one*

    TFW your old employer advertises the job it laid you off from five months ago (along 100 other people)… Fortunately, I landed in a much better place after three months of deep financial stress, but I always have to wonder why companies do these things.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      My company did that, literally about 5 months after I was laid off. I know why though, because they posted the job at two levels lower, meaning they want someone to do my job at half my salary. Still bites.

    2. Thlayli*

      It’s often to get cheaper people to do it. Or sometimes it’s because they lost a client so the work disappeared and then they got a new client so it came back.

  146. Anne Borden*

    I asked my new manager (I have known her 2 weeks) an important question about metrics and variables and she replied with “Ahh [ny name]. My little social scientist.” I am 47 and have a PhD in my discipline. I know she would not have said this to a man who asked the same question. She is a new manager to me. How do I alert her to her internalized sexism while still developing a good relationship with her?

    1. NotaPirate*

      I don’t have any wisdom for you. But I wanted to let you know i am outraged for you.

      Maybe try calling her ahh [boss name], my large manager. /jk

    2. Triplestep*

      The hell?!

      Just guessing here, but is she a different kind of scientist? I had a friend who was a biologist and he was very condescending about social sciences. Not that that helps you!

    3. A Nickname for AAM*

      I don’t think it was sexist and disrespectful of your PhD. I think she is calling you a nerd and telling you that that level of deep thought is not welcome in that particular workplace. She’s telling you that she feels your PhD is making you “uppity” and you’d better watch it.

    4. Bex*

      Have there been other red flags? If this was a one-time comment, I would be incline to let it go and mentally file it away as a piece of a potential pattern. IMO it’s a big presumptuous to assume that your boss has issues with internalized sexism, and that it’s your place to address it, if this is the only incident.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I would have found it a weird, demeaning thing to say* and raised my eyebrows at her in the moment. (43, female, PhD)

      * For multiple reasons:
      Little? demeaning
      Social Scientist? weird
      MY??? she’s been the manager for two weeks, that comes across as really presumptious
      The whole thing? disrespectful, just this side of “don’t worry your pretty little head”

      However, I think it’s a little soon to have a prickly awkward conversation about how weird and demeaning that was, particularly if it was the only instance.

      1. Anne*

        I agree. It was her first line in an email reply to me. I wish there could have been an opportunity for her to see my face. But on the other hand, I glad I was able to step out for a minute w/out anyone seeing me.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I’m not sure it was sexist, but it really came across as being condescending, although I suspect that she doesn’t have enough self-awareness to realize that it came across that way.

    7. Thlayli*

      Are you actually a social scientist? Is she a social scientist? If she is not and you are, I agree it is far more likely to be her being dismissive of your education than your gender. A lot of engineers and scientists don’t consider social science to be “real” science.

    8. Courageous cat*

      I personally would think it’s just her attempt at awkward affection. Some people just don’t… say things very well. This sounds like it could be a case of that.

  147. Mimmy*

    Scheduling dysfunction – I am so done with this!!

    While I was away at the conference last week, my coworkers got a dressing-down for complaining about the daily schedules … from the person (a supervisor) who is causing the problems behind said complaints! Since I wasn’t there I can’t say if this was directed at everyone or at specific employees, or even what exactly was said. One employee did come up with a proposal for a solution but, to my knowledge, he has not presented it to management.

    I get it – it isn’t healthy to complain without offering solutions. However, I get a sense that management isn’t always very open to suggestions. One coworker who I often interact with always gripes to me, and I often suggest she address it with the supervisor, but this person claims that she’s tried and nothing happens. I’ve had suggestions shot down or ignored too.

    The supervisor has always said that making the schedules takes a lot of work and that she does the best she can (in collaboration with the other supervisors). I like her as a person and can be easy to talk to. However, she does make a lot of mistakes (like putting someone on the schedule on Friday despite being told that person is going to be out on Friday). When people are out, we sometimes have to do a lot of shuffling, which can get confusing for both staff and students alike.

    We really do need a better system but I don’t know that any suggestions are going to get implemented or even considered. I thought I’d function well in a schedule-dependent environment because I like structure. Now I’m not so sure!

    I’ve been keeping my eyes and ears open for other jobs but have not been actively applying anywhere. But now I think I’m ready to change that. I just don’t know who to use as references since this is my first paid job in a number of years, and while some of them know I want to do more than what I’m currently doing, I don’t want to announce that I want to jump ship.

  148. AnonAnon*

    Warning, parental leave venting.

    My organization has relatively generous parental leave (in that we have paid parental leave at all): 6 weeks of paid parental, medical, or caregiving (PMC) leave. But it still sucks, and it’s contributing significantly to my burnout.

    The PMC leave is a new policy as of a couple of years ago, and was intended to be both generous and culturally responsive (the leave is quite flexible; you can use it to care for your aging aunt, or if you become a foster parent, etc.).

    But it has a major flaw: it resets every 12 months and doesn’t accumulate. So if you, say, broke your leg in November of 2017 and took 4 weeks of leave, you would only have 2 weeks available when your baby was born in April of 2018. Or if you used it all when your baby was born, you’d have no access to extended leave (beyond what you accumulate through PTO) until May of 2019 — too bad if your child is in the NICU or you have a cancer diagnosis.

    Plus, it results in objectively less pay than our old system (which was complicated, and used a combination of short-term disability that paid at 60% and an unusual paid leave program that covered with full pay the weeks before the disability coverage kicked in).

    The result of this is that since my husband and I have been trying to get pregnant I’ve been hoarding my PTO like a madwoman so I can take more than six weeks off if we have a baby and/or have leave in the bank once we have a child and/or anything else comes up. It’s been 18 months, and I need to take time off to prevent myself from burning out entirely. I’m going to take the time, but I’m pissed as hell that my employer/our country has put me in this situation.

    1. Ingalls*

      I guess I don’t understand your complaint. You get six weeks PAID leave. Are you in the US?

      1. AnonAnon*

        Really? You think it’s reasonable that I get a maximum of six weeks of paid leave after having a child (less, including none, if I’ve already needed leave in the 12 months prior to birth of the child)?

        Yes, I’m in the US. What I get is obviously better than what most people get. But it’s outrageously bad nevertheless.

        1. DCGirl*

          In a perfect world, people would get all the leave they needed.

          But, if I take off six weeks to care for my dying mother (hypothetical, both my folks are long gone) in the fall, then that means I have no leave left when my heartbroken father goes into his final decline a few months later in the new year. I’m not sure why you feel your situation is different.

          1. AnonAnon*

            This is a good point — the policy change changed who/what situations were prioritized.

            In the past, only personal illness or injury was covered (through the combination of types of leave, both of which were only available for medical leave). Medical leave, including pregnancy and childbirth, were prioritized.

            Now, other types of leave (including caregiving) are now covered, but to pay for that the medical leave benefits were reduced. Now, caregiving leave is prioritized over medical leave.

    2. H.C.*

      Bummers about the leave situation & how it’s impacting your family planning, but the PTO hoarding/usage isn’t an all or nothing situation. Use some now so you don’t get burn out, and save some as a buffer in case your PMC leave isn’t enough.

      1. Ingalls*

        Anon,
        You do have it better than a lot of employees in the US. If you are employed with a company that falls under the FMLA guidelines you can take up to 12 weeks of UNPAID leave. A majority of US workers get no paid parental leave time but can take the twelve weeks off for parental/medical leave. I agree with H.C. that it is a bummer and you should use your PTO for some time off when you need it so you don’t get burnt out.

        1. AnonAnon*

          I know that. It doesn’t make my situation any better.

          I’m focused on my situation because Alison doesn’t want the comment section to devolve into attacks on the U.S. system (which is actually the core problem).

      2. AnonAnon*

        Yep, I’m not treating it as all or nothing. But it would take years to build up enough PTO to take a reasonable amount of paid maternity leave, so I need to save a lot of mine.

        1. H.C.*

          You might also want to consider buying short-term disability coverage, especially if it’s subsidized by your employer; I think that typically covers childbirth & kicks in after 1-2 week grace period.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      Does your company have FMLA? For my first, I was allowed leave under FMLA but I had accumulated only enough leave for 7 weeks (I could roll over a week from the previous year). We saved and cut out lots of extras to try to save to cover the rest but still fell short.

      I hope you can take some time off soon! Good luck!

      1. AnonAnon*

        Yes, we’re covered under FMLA — so I can take up to 12 weeks unpaid (or, in my case, it would be 6 weeks paid and 6 weeks unpaid).

        1. Muriel Heslop*

          That’s what I did – 7 weeks paid and 5 unpaid. That of course decimated my leave so when I had Baby #2 – 2 weeks paid and 10 unpaid. It’s tough, financially, for sure.

    4. Overeducated*

      Yeah it sucks. I only get FMLA (so no paid leave except for having to concurrently use up PTO), and I’m not going to say you have it good because it’s STILL insufficient.

    5. Thlayli*

      That’s awful. Any chance you could move to Canada or another modern country with reasonable parental leave? I’m not being facetious here, I’m being genuine. Particularly if you are planning on having a couple of kids, moving to a country with normal parental leave for a few years would probably make a lot of sense financially.

      Also, give some serious consideration to simply taking a career break. Going back to work 2 weeks after giving birth is just not feasible and for me would be a dealbreaker. Childcare costs at that age are so huge that often The financial difference between going to work and staying home is pretty slim. I would quit my job rather than go back that early. Your company sounds awful, don’t put your and your child’s mental health at risk just to accommodate them. Save as much as you can and just quit, then look for another job 6 months or a year later is my advice, if you absolutely have to stay in the states

  149. Cassandra*

    Need some etiquette and language help, good AAMers.

    My spouse and I are trial-separating. This is of course stressful and emotion-inducing. I have every intention of keeping it from damaging my work performance (and I have a good track record at not letting significant stressors throw me off), but. You know. Stuff happens. Like crying in one’s (closed-door) office.

    To whom do I need to disclose this? What is the minimum I can reasonably say? When colleagues innocently mention my spouse, can I just let that go, or do I need to say something? If I need to say something, what do I need to say?

    1. silvertech*

      Personally, I wouldn’t say anything right away. If something happens, like your performance is not as good as it usually is, or a coworker finds you crying in the bathroom, I’d just say to your manager and closest coworkers that you are dealing with a stressful family situation and you will feel better once it’s resolved. Make it clear that you are aware of any shortcomings you might have and you will do your best to minimize them. I’d also clarify that you’d rather not share any details, if anyone pushes you to do it. I wish you the best during this tough time.

    2. Triplestep*

      I am sorry you’re going through this emotional upheaval.

      “Trial” separation indicates a hope of reconciliation (to me, anyway) so I would not talk about it at work, unless there is someone you consider a friend (and not just a work friend.) Not everyone understands what a trial separation is, and if you do work through this as a couple, you don’t need people second-guessing you once you are living together again.

      If you feel you have been over-emotional at work, I would just say that you’ve “got a lot going on” and leave it at that. If you say “Thanks, but I don’t feel like talking about it work. I don’t want it to affect me here” most people won’t pry. They’ll feel like they’re helping you stay on track, so in a sense, you’ve given them a way to help. And most people want to feel like they’ve helped.

    3. gecko*

      I’m sorry!!

      I’d say, talk to your immediate boss/supervisor. “Can I talk to you for a minute? This is difficult to say, but my spouse and I are starting the process of separating. I don’t think this will affect my productivity, but it is going to be pretty stressful, and I wanted to give you a heads up in case anything bleeds through to work.”

      AAM mentions sometimes talking to an office gossip to get news spread around without disclosing it over and over.

      That could look like continuing the conversation with your boss: “I also wanted to ask, could you quietly mention that this is happening, and that I don’t really want to talk about it, to other people on the team?” or even, “It’s ok to mention this to other people, though I really don’t want to discuss it at work, at all.”

      Or it could look like saying, “Ah, we’re separating, unfortunately,” when someone brings up your spouse. I guarantee it’d be spread around :/

      Most people understand that stuff just happens. I think it would be courteous to coworkers to let them know, so they don’t feel like they’ve been putting their feet in their mouths for months. But I don’t think you’ll need to mention it often and I think you will get understanding.

      1. beanie beans*

        I like gecko’s advice!

        If it helps encourage you, I’ve been going through some really hard personal stuff with my family over the past year. Several times I was close to talking with my supervisor about it in case I had a break down at work or as a heads-up that I may be a little less productive at work – but using words like gecko described. I never ended up having that discussion and I feel fortunate that work was a place where I could try to forget about the hard personal stuff, but be gentle with yourself for a while – and if things come up, it’s perfectly ok to say to anyone “I’m going through some hard stuff right now – I don’t want to talk about it, but just know I’m not quite myself lately.”

    4. En vivo*

      Cassandra,

      That’s an awful situation to be in. The separation is bad enough, and then having to manage your emotions around others is hellish. I wouldn’t mention the state of your marriage, because hopefully it’s very temporary, and you wouldn’t want others to feel/speak some sort of way about your marriage after you reconcile. Above all, it’s no-one’s business. If others ask about your spouse, just say he’s fine. If they see you upset, attribute it to something you’re handling without being specific.

    6. AnonForThis*

      Seconding the phrase “stressful family situation.” It has served me remarkably well through the process of my spouse coming out as transgender and starting transition. I think most people hear that phrase and assume a parent or grandparent is in failing health, or that my kidlet needs to switch schools again, or something similar.

      I think you can ignore innocent mentions of your spouse if they come up in conversation – you don’t owe anyone details about your life.

  150. NotaPirate*

    Interviewing question, what are some good ways to gain more information about the culture at a company? Is it okay to ask how common is people staying late/working on weekends? I don’t want to come off as “not a team player” but I’d like to get an honest feel for the expectations. I had a job once where it was expected that everyone on salary come in at least an hour early (10 hr days) compared to the hourly guys. Also a little curious as to how to get a feel for diversity/how conservative a company is.

    1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      If it’s a big enough company, you could probably find some information on Glassdoor. I’ve gleaned a lot of good information from them.

    2. beanie beans*

      I got good at asking these types of questions in interviews! I usually asked: “I’m a motivated worker and work hard while I’m at work, but at this stage in my career, I also am not interested in a position that [whatever your conditions are – mine were working weekends or regular 12 hour days]. I am open to working late as needed, but I want to make sure I understand expectations for this position.” You could also ask it similarly with something like – “what are the typical work hours for this position? Are evening and weekend work a regular expectation or is it more occasional as-needed?”

      People were generally very honest with me! I don’t think it’s in their interest to hire someone who won’t ultimately fit into the position. And the companies where normal work hours were closer to 40 hours per week seemed to respond well to these questions also – they didn’t seem to think I was coming off as lazy or not a hard worker.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I like asking something like “What does a typical day for a person in this role look like?” While the person answering can still lie, it’s a lot more challenging to do effectively than if you ask “What are the normal hours to that role?” or “Is overtime expected in this role?” (Lying answers (with truth in quotes) being: “9 – 5 (but nothing is ever normal around here)” and “No (it’s demanded)”)

      I’m still not sure on how to get a feel for diversity/inclusion beyond seeing who’s around for the interview and if you’re shown around the office.

  151. Triplestep*

    Three questions, with more info below if you’re so inclined:

    1. If you’ve ever taken a job with less responsibility as a quality-of-life move, how has that worked out for you?

    2. If you’ve ever worked for a consultancy on a client’s site, how did that work out for you?

    3. If you’ve ever lit a fire under would-be employers as a candidate when one has made an offer, how did you do it?

    Here’s the situation: I wrote last week that I am a candidate in four searches. So far all interviews have been over the phone. One of them – the one with the least responsibility and lowest pay – made me an offer. And even though I sought out jobs that would be less responsibility (for a number of reasons) I am disappointed in just how low the offer is. I bought myself some time by saying I wanted to visit the client site and meet the other team-members there (there were no face to face meetings at all) but they are aware this would be a huge pay cut for me. I have not mentioned numbers, but it would be a 30% pay cut. Range was never asked or discussed during the interview process. (Had they asked for any more than a phone call, I would have asked for one.)

    As for the other three searches, one is having me come in for a face-to-face the week of July 9th. The other two I have not heard from in the two days since sending them my work samples, which could mean something or could mean nothing. I would like to ask the if they’d see me that week, too, but not sure how.

    On the one hand, I’m feeling like I should just try to get the salary of this low responsibility job up and call it a day. I am nearly 55 years old, and managed to find a job w/out having to show them how old I am – something that could work against me in other interviews. It’s a large consulting firm, and I might never have to job search again if I play my cards right. I can move to another role within in a few years if I want.

    On the other hand, I am worried I won’t be senior enough to avoid scutt work, and I hate scutt work in my field. I have always been the client – never the consultant – and I am afraid of having to do the kinds of tasks I am trying to get away from, even though I have been very clear that I don’t want to do them.

    The three other jobs come with their own issues (one has TERRIBLE Glass Door reviews, and two have not great commutes) but good titles an pay. On the other hand, are they setting me up to never job search again? I don’t know.

    Oh, and by the way, I hate my current commute, boss and workplace culture suck. I have found some people I genuinely like (they are my internal clients) and some of the work is well-aligned to my skills. But I want out after six months because my boss is a terrible manager. My skills are niche, so there’s no way to get away from her except to leave.

    If you’ve read this far, bless your heart! I’d be grateful if you picked any question I’ve posed (or one of your own) to answer. Thank you!

    1. Subscriptionsmayvary*

      #1. Yes. I’ve done this twice.

      The first time I took a lower level job due to medical issues. The people were good, the pay not great, the company not so much. After two years I was offered the opportunity to support another division (as well as the one I was currently supporting) with change in title or pay.

      The second time I took a lower level job was due to being downsized (and needing money). The people were good, the company is good, and the pay improved. While it is a ‘dead end job,’ overtime I have been given autonomy to do the job as I see fit and do not have to deal with micromanagers. My coworkers are appreciative, and I am bonused on my performance. I would not leave this job for more money, because I wouldn’t trade the people, the culture, the ability to direct my own work for something like more money.

      2. Triplestep*

        Thanks, this is helpful. Autonomy is something I really want, and something I am lacking now (even though I have more responsibility – micromanaging, score keeping boss.) So that’s worth a lot to me, too.

        Unfortunately, you can’t predict the culture or the people. I think that’s what has me scared.

    2. Jersey's mom*

      What is most important to you? Is there a pay point that must be met for you to financially survive at the comfort level you want? Can the job offer confirm no scutt work (making it explicit that scutt work would likely result in you leaving the position?) Or could you put up with some scutt for a couple years until you can internally transfer? I completely get it, I’m a 50+ field scientist who now works in the office and has no desire to put in 10 hour days in the field.

      You could go to the site meeting and then accept, with a start date in 30 days, buying you more time to see what happens with the other positions.

      One thing. Stop looking at yourself as old, used goods. You are someone with extensive experience in your field that would be an asset to a company. Just because you’re looking at a job with slightly less resposibilities doesnt mean your knowledge and experience is gone. Those companies would be getting a bargain by hiring you! All that stuff in your head that would be available to them!

      And, look at the ages of the people being considered for the supreme court-in their 40s and 50s! Stop looking at your age as a liability – it’s a huge knowledge asset.

      Flip your thinking. 50s is not old in today’s marketplace. Good luck!

      1. tab*

        I agree! I’m in my 60’s and have no problem getting work. My years of experience are what makes me valuable to my clients. You have many years of contributions to make, if that’s what you want.

        1. Triplestep*

          Thanks. I know I have years of contributions to make, but my work is fairly niche. It’s hard to progress in, hard to find within a reasonable commute, and age discrimination is real. I do not think your experience is universal or even common – the message boards at Linkedin premium are full of people saying that they have trouble finding work due to being “too experienced” (read: “old.” Or more “presumed to be more expensive than a younger worker.”)

      2. Triplestep*

        Thanks for the reply. I do not think that I’d be able to get out of scutt work. One of the reasons I’m looking is that I have to do the scutt work NOW because layoffs have removed the people whose job it used to be. My fear is that I’ll take this lower-paying job and be back in the same situation I’m in right now.

        I am trying to hold off judgement until the meeting. I went to Linkedin and looked up the name of the person who is supposed to be my contact, and it seems that HE is way over-experienced for HIS job. I am trying to figure out a way to discreetly ask about this. I think I will engage him in conversation about his last job because we know people in common from that place. But the plot definitely thinkens!

    3. Thlayli*

      1 i did move to a lower responsibility job and it was a brilliant decision
      2 I currently work on a client site. So long as you remember you are a contractor and act accordingly it’s fine.

      1. Triplestep*

        I think it’s the “remember you are a contractor and act accordingly” I might have a problem with. My role is inherently a client service role – the clients are other people in other departments at my workplace. So I already have to say “how high?” when someone tells me to jump. I don’t know that I’d want to do that MORE for less money.

  152. Can she ask me that?*

    I recently had the following exchange with a (married, female, 2 kids) supervisor in our open office space at work. It was lunchtime and several people were seated at the table.

    Boss: Are you married?

    Me: Uh…yes…? (Points at rings) I wear these every day. Why do you ask?

    Boss: Well, we were wondering who would be the next to get pregnant and your name came up, but one of the boys in the office thought that you might not be married.

    Me: … (Speechless, surprised expression)

    Boss: (Quickly) But I know you don’t have to be married to have kids, that’s old thinking. (Name of my direct supervisor) just recently had a baby and she isn’t married.

    Me: (Trying to deflect with a weak joke) So you’re taking bets on who will get pregnant next?

    Boss: (looks down at papers) No…but we like to keep tabs on it for staffing reasons.

    Me: … (Shocked expression, returns to laptop)

    So a few questions for the group:

    1. Can she ask me that? Is it technically allowed because she indirectly asked about my life plans indirectly?
    2. How should I have handled that?
    3. Should I worry about pregnancy discrimination at this job?

    Thanks in advance.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I mean, if it was straight-up gossiping it would still be off-putting like any comments about “next to get married” or “next to reproduce.” However “staffing reasons” is the tip-off to #3. Generally speaking, someone who gets pregnant and notifies management at, say, 12 weeks still has 24+ weeks before they go on leave, which is plenty of time to deal with staffing issues. Speculating ahead of time for “staffing reasons” is a sign of a workplace with issues with pregnant employees.

    2. Anonymous for this one*

      She can ask. What would be illegal is if she used the information to adversely impact your employment.

      1. Can she ask me that?*

        Therein lies the rub. How would I even know that a possible pregnancy was the source of the discrimination? Also, if I am not planning on getting pregnant, does it still matter? Will I get passed over based on my *potential* to get pregnant? (Also, isn’t it more than a little hypocritical for a married mom of two to discriminate against a young woman who gets pregnant?)

    3. gecko*

      1. Sure she can

      2. Lots of staircase words. Maybe, “What staffing reasons?” If you’ve feeling quite bold you could say dryly, “Hope that the ‘will get pregnant’ list isn’t the same as the ‘no promotions’ list.” You handled it fine, though, there’s really not much to say…

      3. Yes, you absolutely should be worried.

    4. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      Like, I’m not a lawyer, but I’m in agreement with the consensus. If I remember correctly, it’s perfectly legal to ask about personal information, it’s just illegal to use it to discriminate.

      The rub is proving that you didn’t use the information to discriminate – which is why you don’t ask your employees about their family planning. (Well, that and it’s creepy and gross to speculate on that sort of thing, especially if you’re in a position of authority over the target. And in her case, she already IS likely using that information for discrimination, since your company is TRACKING WHO MIGHT GET PREGNANT.

      I think you handled it well enough in the moment – that’s super invasive, and you let her know that she was out of line. I believe other appropriate reactions would be leaving a pregnancy test on her desk, taking a pregnancy test on her desk, and replying to her comment about staffing reasons by saying that you’re opening up a position in your supervisor’s department.

      (Don’t do any of this. But if you do, please tell us how it goes.)

    5. RVA Cat*

      Does it not even occur to her that “one of the boys in the office” may get someone pregnant and want to take parental leave….?

    6. Girl friday*

      I laugh when asked questions like that. My daughters and I use, “How’s the weather?” as a conversation-changer. It amuses me when people who don’t know me do that, so sometimes I just smile. That’s three good options for a response.

  153. StudentA*

    Could anyone offer any advice on how to secure professional proofreading or editing projects in the book publishing sphere? I’m sure it’s highly competitive, but I do have experience. I got one gig by luck and am trying to get more. Indie publishers would be great. I imagine they’re easier to obtain. Thank you!

    1. Dragoning*

      Well, I would start with making sure you’re using the correct terminology–I suspect you aren’t, because proofreading isn’t a fun or exciting job. Proofreading involves comparing two proofs and making sure the final proof matches what someone else tell you it should be. No editing, not grammar corrections, just a comparison.

      1. Lore*

        Maybe that’s true in some contexts, but at the trade publisher I work for, we are definitely expecting proofreaders also to keep an eye out for errors. Authors might have rewritten substantively during copy editing and things might not line up. The copy editor might have missed stuff. A legal review might have introduced inconsistencies. It would be foolish of us not to take advantage of as many trained sets of eyes as we can!

        In terms of breaking in, look on LinkedIn for copy chiefs and managing editors. You can usually cold-email offering freelance services. We like to see some experience with full length work on your resume, and we also have a test.

    2. LQ*

      Does it need to be for a publisher? Or have you considered working directly with indie (or pro, some big publishing house authors have their own folks before they even send it out) authors? It might help to look at that sphere as well. Fiction stuff or nonfiction stuff? And if you got one gig definitely think about marketing that and asking for them to recommend you for other stuff. Especially if you’re on board with project sized work rather than a full time job. If you want nonfiction and you have Experience with some other thing make sure you play that up. Like if you have medical knowledge from being a nurse or something that can help.

    3. SophieChotek*

      and perhaps the person you got one gig can give you some recs/will recommend you

      I have a friend who hardly advertises herself at all – but she has more requests that she will take on.

    4. LilySparrow*

      If you’re looking to work with indie authors, Reedsy.com is a job board that specializes in publishing services (graphic design, editing, proofing, etc). There’s a very high standard and users expect to pay good professional rates.

  154. ReferenceCheckQ.*

    Reference check before offer made

    This is a first for me. I am one of three finalists for a regional coordinator position with a national organization and just completed my second round interview. At the conclusion, my interviewer/hiring manager told me that reference checks will be done early next week and an offer will be made by next Friday.

    Now, here’s my question: What should I tell my references? I don’t know when the calls will happen or what they can expect. I don’t even know if it will be an HR person or the hiring manager. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    Thanks for your input!

    1. beanie beans*

      In all of the jobs I’ve gotten they contacted references before making an offer.

      If your references know you are job searching, just let them know that you’ve listed them as a reference and that someone may be contacting them in the next week. And if they have any questions about your skills or experience that you’re happy to answer any questions.

      If your references DON’T know that you’re job searching and it’s a boss or manager, then you might have to have a hard conversation. The good thing is, if they’re calling references you have a really good shot at getting the position! The big thing would be to give them a heads up before they get a call! And to have a conversation not that you’re leaving but just that this great job opportunity came up that you couldn’t pass up, that you don’t know if you’d get it, but that you had to list a supervisor/manager as a reference and they might be getting a call.

      Good luck!

      1. ReferenceCheckQ.*

        Beanie Beans,

        Wow, that’s an interesting hiring history!

        In every previous position I’ve applied for and accepted, HR/hiring manager made an offer contingent on reference and background checks. The language was along the lines of X salary, Y start date, provided the checks come back clean.

        The position for which I’ve just completed two phone interviews and an elaborate writing exercise asked for a reference list two weeks ago. No one has discussed salary, benefits or other background check information with me.

        I am reluctant to bother my references, who know I’m actively job searching and interviewing, to give their time to answer questions when I don’t have an offer. For all I know, the reference check will be conducted, then I will receive an automated rejection email.

        1. H.C.*

          Give your references a heads up and let them know it’s at the reference check stage of your interview/hiring process, and they should be hearing from employer X in the next few days/weeks.

          It’s better than them getting caught off guard by the call/email from the potential employer.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          It’s not that unusual; all but one of my past jobs called references before making an offer. Give your references a heads-up and tell them you’re at the late stages with a company, would it be ok if they get in touch for a reference.

          However, if you’re interested in this job, I would start talking salary and benefits asap. You don’t want to bother your references for a job you wouldn’t accept even if it were offered.

          1. ReferenceCheckQ.*

            AvonLady Barksdale,

            Thanks for the feedback and confirmation that I’m OK to discuss salary after two interviews and a writing exercise. I don’t want to seem crass; however, I’m puzzled as to why neither HR nor my interviewers mentioned anything about money, onboarding, PTO, or percentage of time spent traveling.

            I will definitely email my references Sunday night with a message relaying details about the position and the company. Unfortunately, I cannot provide either the phone number from which they can expect the call or the person on the line (HR, hiring manager, etc.).

            1. H.C.*

              That is fine, just “Someone from [[Employer X]] will be calling about my candidacy for [[position Y]]” will suffice. I don’t think I’ve ever given my references that specific of a heads up (who will be calling from what number).

  155. Not So Little My*

    I’m a very infrequent commenter, so I understand if most of you don’t know me. But I wanted to share with you that I started my new job this week. I’m working for a well-known and well-reputed company on a team of similarly-to-me senior and skilled teapot engineers, and have already gotten a vibe of good collaboration. I’ve been through some real ups and downs the last couple of years, but I’m cautiously optimistic that this will turn out to be a good place to be.

    3. Plague of frogs*

      That’s great, and I would like to second miss piggy in my admiration of your user name.

  156. Dragoning*

    Panicky question a year too late to do anything about it: When I put my two weeks notice in a a retail position at a large pharmacy to begin an office job, I received, approximately a month after the fact paperwork about my “termination” and other unemployment info.

    This manager I gave my two weeks two was horrifically toxic and abusive of power, and I caught on this word they used about my end of employment as “termination.”

    Do you think he told HR that he fired me? Is “termination” a normal word to use in this context?

    1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      Termination can be a normal word to use in HR context – any kind of employee separation might be considered a “termination.” At my university, when you leave a job your employment appointment is terminated, and then a reason code assigned – so it could be “got a better job”, “stayed home with family”, “fired”, etc.

      It’s possible he did tell HR you were fired, but I think it’s pretty common for HR to use the word “termination” to denote the end of employment. HR people, please correct me if I’m wrong!

    2. Forking Great Username*

      Lots of people equate terminated with being fired, but at my retail job it just meant hat your employment had ended. The difference was in whether the termination was listed as voluntary (meaning the person quit) or involuntary (fired).

    3. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      We generally don’t refer to it as termination, unless it’s our decision to let someone go. When a person quits, we call it “resignation.” I’d definitely check with their HR to clear it up!

    4. Oldie but Goodie*

      I used to work in HR and when I quit I had to “terminate” myself in the system even through I gave notice and wasn’t fired or layed off. Meaning, the paperwork may in fact just be reflecting the work status that you don’t work there anymore and that was your last day.

    5. CatCat*

      Who knows what happened. He could have said you were fired. Someone in HR could have made a mistake too.

      I would call the old HR and ask about it. “Hi, I got a bunch of paperwork about my ‘termination.’ Do your records reflect that I was fired or that I quit?” And then clear it up from there. “Oh, I wasn’t fired. I quit with two weeks notice for another opportunity.”

      1. A Nickname for AAM*

        I once was going through employee records and found the “termination-quit” form for one of my coworkers, who had quit us (his second job) because his full-time job had him relocate cities.

        The form was checkboxes, and there were checkboxes for would hire again/would not hire again, and if the person had quit or if the person had been fired. I was quite shocked to see, “Do not hire!” checked off, with the note, “Mike was an excellent employee and an incredible asset to our team, I am sad to see him go.”

        My boss was dyslexic: she’d checked the wrong box. I assume HR understood what she meant and filed it accordingly, but who knows.

    6. Hamburke*

      Termination just means end of employment. We request that managers and leaving employees, if available, fill out termination documents that ask all the questions that unemployment would, especially for involuntary termination.

  157. Forking Great Username*

    I’m a recent college grad looking for a teaching job. Summer is when most of the hiring happens, and I’ve filled out many applications and spent a ton of time on my resume and cover letters. I haven’t gotten any calls for interviews yet and am trying to not get discouraged – still early in the season and I know people are on vacation, etc.

    In my area, nepotism is unfortunately somewhat common in the field – you’ll often see siblings or a parent and son/daughter who work in the same building. I’m not a fan of this. My mom is a teacher, but definitely I’m not applying to work in the same district as her. However, she has asked me if she can connect me to her former principal, who is now head of HR where I completed my student teaching/a long term sub job, for advice. (I’ve met him but am sure he’s not aware of the connection since I’m married and don’t share a last name with my mom.) I guess I’m wondering what your opinions are on networking connections that come from parents. It feels a little strange to me, and at this point I’ve told my mom no thanks…but as time drags on (we’ve been out of school for two weeks and a couple of the jobs I applied for had their application closing dates three weeks ago) I’m wondering if I should reconsider. This district isn’t hiring for my position, but it would be nice to talk to someone about what they look for, general hiring timelines in the area, etc.

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      I’m a teacher and the head of my department. Nepotism is when someone is influenced or gives a job to someone because of power or a benefit. People refer their friends and family to me all the time. Sometimes I hire them (usually I don’t) but I’m always happy to hear from a person that I respect and/or like who may have a great teacher for me. Unless you think this principal is going to give you a job because you are your mother’s daughter then I would steer clear. That’s just poor hiring practice and it’s nepotism. Your mom is a teacher – to me, that’s networking.

      Good luck! We will be interviewing and making offers well into July. People have until mid-July to let us know.

      1. Forking Great Username*

        Thank you! No, just to clarify, I definitely wouldn’t be expecting this person to hire me – I know that isn’t what this kind of networking is for. Although regardless, his district has no openings in my content area (which is unfortunate, since I know my cooperating teachers and the principal would all recommend me! Oh well.)

    2. Thlayli*

      A referral isn’t nepotism. If you get an offer, and get the impression that the principal doesn’t think you are good for the job, but hired you anyway purely because of your mother, that would be nepotism. Or if you think she didn’t interview anyone else and just gave you the job because you are Janes daughter, that would be nepotism. But your mother simply sending on your resume to her old peincipal is not nepotism.

  158. deepredbells*

    I may not be in early enough today for people to see this, but I’ll still ask. I am 10 years out of grad school, and during my last year of grad school, I did a three-month part-time internship at an organization. I am now considering applying for a job at that organization, after many years working in a somewhat different field post-graduation. Do I even mention that old internship in the cover letter? It was so long ago and such a short stint that I feel like it wouldn’t add much to my candidacy now. Although the head of the department with whom I worked is still there, I doubt she would remember me a decade later. At the same time, though, it feels weird or even disingenuous not to mention my prior work for the organization in that department. Any thoughts?

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I would mention it. It may not amount to much with the short tenure, but it would be really weird not to mention it.

    2. CatCat*

      I would mention it.

      I did a graduate fellowship at my current employer 11 years before I got the job (working in a different capacity). I didn’t put it on my resume, but it came up in my interview when one of the interviewers said, leading up to a spiel about the organization, “Not many people know what the Organization does.” And they were actually interested in hearing a little about my time back then.

    3. beanie beans*

      I would definitely mention it! Especially if you had a good experience there.

      Something like “During my last year of grad school I did a short internship with your organization and was impressed with [something or other]. I would be excited to come back to your organization with the 10 years of experience I’ve had since working there.”

    4. Persimmons*

      Definitely mention it, but not in a way that makes you seem clueless about how the field has advanced since your time there. Perhaps something like “Despite gaining significant experience in Cat Herding in the decade since my internship with Meow Incorporated, the teamwork and positive atmosphere there has stuck with me. I would be very interested in returning to Meow Incorporated and bringing my Feline Lassoing expertise back into the Meow family.”

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would mention it! Especially if you had a good rapport with your supervisor. I did an internship after grad school, 14 years ago, and I would love to go back to that organization. I am pretty confident they would remember me (I mean… I was awesome back then), and I hope that’s true in your case too.

  159. Tiffany Aching*

    My partner works for a company that’s gone through a large amount of changes in the past year, and despite all efforts to improve, it’s horrifically disorganized from a management standpoint. I’m talking getting the runaround on benefit-related questions and work getting lost because of bad practices that lower employees brought up to management months ago being normal operating procedures for them. My partner is completely burnt out from a couple years of this and because they’ve been considered more senior with all the turnover and have had an obscene amount of work piled on them.

    They’re making plans to get out, but in the meantime how do they keep from snapping at their boss or a VP when faced with yet another management mistake that adds to their workload? They’re well aware nothing they say is gonna fix things, but it’s hard for them to not react emotionally in the moment.

    Also, since they’re burnt out, they want to switch careers but they don’t have a concrete idea of what they want to do next (other than “not-fucking-this”). Any tips on figuring that out? I’ve directed them to the archives here for reading this weekend, but I thought maybe someone else has been in a similar situation.

    1. LQ*

      I highly recommend informational interviews, or coffee and tell me about your job. Reaching out to a wide range of people in different fields, different kinds of work with a hey, I’m starting to think about a change. I want to know more about your job. What do you do every day, what do you love, what do you hate? NOT job interviews, actual informational conversations. Start with friends in different industries and ask them like you’ve never talked to them about work before. Then branch out from there. I lost my last job and wasn’t sure where to go and sort of narrowed it down to 2 things. Informational interviews helped a lot figuring out which path would be the right one to pursue.

      Designing Your Life book has some good things in it.

  160. Oldie but Goodie*

    I’m in school right now to get my first bachelors in Computer Science. I’ll be graduating at age 43 so very non-traditional. Previously I worked in mostly sales and administrative type jobs though with technical projects like working on the implementation team for Oracle 3.1 to 9i upgrade, working with BigMachines to build our own configuration/ordering software, transferring all our data from Zenefits to GoCo HR platforms, and incorporating PayActiv into our accounting/payroll system. So technical but administrative.

    I would love any general advice on resumes, interviewing when you’re old af and trying to get a job in a tech field. Do I try to structure my resume so I seem younger? How would hiring managers see me? Too old to fit into a younger culture (btw, being in school ft with 18-22 yr olds has been a great experience)? Dressing too old for interviews? Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you!

    1. rubyrose*

      Hey, I graduated at 41! I tell people now I was on the 23 year plan for college. Degree not in CS, but my experience before the degree was IT (developer).

      I would probably list your previous jobs, if there are not too many of them. Each job would get one line to summarize the position overall, but several lines (as appropriate) listing your work on the technical projects. Those lines would be listed before the summation line. Take advantage of the fact that you are older and have had some experience with technical projects that the 22 year olds have not had. Once you have a tech job for maybe a year, I would drop the detailed listing of the previous jobs and just replace it with the summation of the tech projects and your roles in them.

      How are hiring managers going to see you? Depends. Some companies want those fresh youngsters because they want to pay rock bottom wages and work them to death. Those companies may decide up front that they cannot play that game with you. Others want the maturity, the person who already knows how to be in the workplace. Not all companies have young workers.

      Dressing too old for interviews – not sure how to interpret that. I think there is really just a standard professional dressing style for interviews that you probably know and the younger folks may not know. Just use your good common sense. I think you will be fine!

    2. CM*

      Former software developer here. I’m assuming you’re looking for a development job. I think your experience is a huge plus and it’s related to the jobs you are trying to get. So I would just do a normal resume, but emphasizing the technical parts of your previous jobs. It’s possible some hiring managers would see you as too old. For ones that aren’t discriminating based on age, my guess is that they will think you have valuable experience because most developers have no clue what happens once the product is released, but will want to make sure you have the coding skills, understand how the software development process works, and are open to learning the company’s way of doing things instead of always comparing it to your previous jobs.

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I would put the emphasis on your technical experience. Like if I saw “upgraded Oracle 3.1 to 9i” I would be extremely interested in this and want to know more. I don’t think you need to worry too much about trying to seem younger, and definitely don’t structure the resume to seem younger. It sounds like you’ve got the experience, so let that shine. If you try to hide your age that will be obvious.

      When I’m involved in hiring, I tend to care less about the age of the technology you worked with and more about a demonstrated ability to adapt and learn. There’s still plenty of people out there on Oracle 9is. I myself do dev work in an ETL tool that’s been unsupported for years (welcome to higher ed). And 43 is not old! I can’t say you’ll never face age discrimination, but good employers who are worth working for will look at your skills, experience, and work ethic. IT is not just a bunch of young hip people with CS degrees – says the 34-year-old with an English BA. :)

    4. Chaordic One*

      The only thing I would add is that I would leave off any work experience that is more than 10 years old. It’s probably not relevant and it does give some unenlightened employers a reason to screen you out.

      At the interview, you’ll impress them with your technical knowledge and your age won’t be an issue.

  161. Slimer*

    In cubicle-land, I sit near a “snot sucker”. Disgusting noises come from her area all day long, all year. HR was contacted, but no change. Now a second employee with the habit has joined the area. My assumption is that he was relocated, hoping that they would hear each other, realize it was nasty, and stop. No such luck. Now the rest of the floor is treated to a stereo performance.

    1. Plague of frogs*

      Yuck. Is everyone bothered by it, or just you? If everyone, maybe a white noise maker would help drown it out. If just you, see if there’s a way you can change to a different cubicle.

    2. Daniela*

      Oh, I think I work with her brother, snot-inspector. He blows his nose 4-5 times an hour, and inspects the results on his tissue. Every. Single. Time. Not just briefly, either. More like he’s expecting to grade the viscosity, color and volume of what he produced. I feel for you!!!

    3. SewAnxious*

      oh gods…
      I can offer no advice, but you have all my sympathies!
      maybe you can discuss it with HR as a misophonia issue?

  162. Anonymosity*

    /rant

    Dear employers,

    If you’d thought about hiring me, perhaps you wouldn’t have to re-post the same position for which you passed me over. Or perhaps you couldn’t keep the person you hired because your pay sucks, your benefits suck, or something else sucks, and I dodged a bullet.

    :P

    /end rant

    Also, I got rejected ON SATURDAY last week for a dishwasher job at a retirement home. FML

    2. nep*

      Sorry you’re struggling. It sucks to constantly feel you’re fighting like that.
      Peace and all the best of luck.

    3. NaoNao*

      Oh, I’m so sorry about that. I’m really surprised about the rejection, as usually retirement homes are really in need of aides and other lower level positions!

      I’ve got my fingers crossed for you and I really hope something comes along.

      1. Anonymosity*

        Probably because I’m way overqualified (I even used my dumbed-down resume), but COME ON. I wouldn’t be applying if I weren’t okay with doing the job.

      1. Omg*

        Not every day, but when they see people from another location, they’ll give them a hug. Sometimes they hug each other.

    3. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      All of them? There’s one woman in my workplace that says “I love you” and is quite huggy but it’s pretty much only with people she knows well, and she’s just generally very emotive. If it was everyone…then ew…..

      1. Omg*

        3 or 4 of them. They mainly hug one another (Thank goodness), but I’m still weirded out by it.

      1. Omg*

        They also put their hand on your shoulder when they talk to you sometimes… I am totally out of my comfort zone. I don’t want to be “too uptight”, but I would probably start yelling if they tried to hug me.

        1. nep*

          That doesn’t constitute being too uptight. You’ve got a right not to be touched, plain and simple.

    5. SewAnxious*

      my coworkers are super huggy. and I am not at all. so they really love trying to hug me knowing how much I hate it!

      1. Kat in VA*

        Oof, no. I’m very huggy and touchy with “my” people – that is, my friends, my family, and a very few select “my” work folks who are similarly inclined and that I really like.

        But random hugs from people that I just work with and/or don’t know very well, or don’t like?

        NOPE. GETCHER HANDS OFF ME.

        Goes double for folks who have been told “Um, no…no hugs, please” or some similarly mild expression of GETCHER HANDS OFF ME. What’s more important – their need to touch you or your bodily autonomy?

        People who push boundaries really tick me off.

        Usually, “Please don’t hug me, I’m not a physical person and don’t like it” should be enough to do the trick. For those who hear CHALLENGE ACCEPTED and push, escalating to “PLEASE don’t hug me. I’ve already told you I don’t like it and I have to question why you continue to do something I said I explicitly don’t like. Knock it off, right now.”

        Bless Captain Awkward and all of her scripts that have been provided, as well as discovering that yes, Kat, you really do have the option to tell people to NOT do things you don’t like (within reason) and escalate it if they refuse to respect your boundaries!

    7. tab*

      Ha, ha, ha! I’m trying to imagine a bunch of engineers doing that! Many of us have trouble making eye contact with each other!

  164. Admin life*

    I work as an administrative assistant with a focus on event support and work on some major projects for a large company. For the most part, the job is rewarding and I love my colleagues and boss. Today, I was surprised when one of my colleagues came up to me to let me know that I “deserved better and I should think about moving to a more prestigious role”. It was a bit of a shocking comment as I feel like I don’t know her that well. I do know that because I work sitting at a reception desk, most people don’t understand all the nuances of my job, but I still was caught off guard. Part of me knows that this hit me a bit hard because I’ve been thinking about moving into another job but I’m now very cautious after being in a very toxic job environment in the past.
    I guess my question is how do I not to let these things affect me and how to actually respond to these sort of comment. I see my colleague pretty frequently , although we work on very different areas.

    1. rubyrose*

      It sounds to me like your colleague is noticing your hard good work and is complementing you. Accept the complement with “Thanks for noticing my work. I appreciate it.”

    2. self employed*

      It sounds like a misguided attempt at a compliment— you’re “better” than “just an admin.” Continue on as you were and don’t let it take up any more space in your mind.

      1. Kat in VA*

        Agreed. It sounds like a ham-handed attempt to compliment you on your hard work. And a weak one at that. You don’t tell someone, “Hey, you do a great job but you should get out of that sucky position and into one that’s got more glamor and glitz.”

        FWIW, there is no “just an admin”. Every single receptionist, admin assistant, and executive assistant is an invisible wheel that gets a million tiny (and not so tiny) things done in the office, and a good or bad one can make or break you if they’re good enough or if they suck enough.

        I’m an executive assistant myself, and over the years I’ve heard it all – “just a secretary”, “The boss’ lackey”, “Boss’ firewall”, “Coffee grabber”, “just a meeting scheduler”, and similar other cutting statements (definitely not said in a complimentary manner like your coworker). When I feel like it, I remind people that my job is to do all those little (and big!) things so my executive(s) can do the job they’re paid for…so how is that “just” anything? I do a good job and I’m proud of my work ethic.

        I think people in higher positions who cut down people in perceived “lower” positions should take a step back and realize that just because our job isn’t for them doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have worth. I see that in ALL jobs – there’s no “merely” a file clerk or “just” a garbage man or “only” a gardener.

        People work and provide value at all levels of employment – whether the janitor or the CEO!

  165. JC*

    I’ve been encouraged to apply for a new position in my department that I am a really good fit for. I actually would love this job… except it includes travel. I have small children and at this time (likely for the next three years) cannot travel. What is a good way to say, ” I’m not applying for this position, but I am interested should it come open again in a few years?” Do I site family commitments? I am female if that matters.

    1. rubyrose*

      I would not mention gender. I would just say that “family commitments prevent me from accepting a position that includes travel at this time. Please keep me in mind if it opens again.” That way they know why you are not pursuing it right now.

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        I don’t think JC needs to hide gender either, it’s likely they’ve had that bit figured out.

      2. Beatrice*

        I would use ruby’s script, and I’d also make a point of speaking up when your situation changes. I did that a few years ago, when my family had reached a point where multi-day travel was something I could do. I helped my boss with a project involving a satellite location a 6-hour drive away, and I told him that if it would be helpful for me to go there and spend a few days, I was at a point where that would be possible for me. He thanked me for telling him and said he’d actually been wondering. I didn’t wind up doing it on that project, but did wind up making a few trips later that year for other things.

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Travel is one of those odd duck situations where I think it’s ok to bring in non work stuff to the discussion. At the end of the day you and your boss/company need to know if the travel is going to work out in the long run.

      In your case I’d keep it light with a word to keeping the door open in the future.

      Jane: I have this great job that you’d be perfect for, you’d be responsible for x, y, and n% travel to client sites
      JC: Oh wow that does sound like a great opportunity I’d like to hear more.
      Jane: blah blah blah… teapots… llamas… blah… you’ll be on the road about 50%
      JC: That really does sound like a great opportunity. I’m concerned the expected travel won’t be compatible with with my home life right now.
      Jane: Yeah, it’s a lot…
      JC: The good news is that my situation is likely to evolve in the next couple of years. So I would be happy to continue this conversation in case the timing works out better the next time you have a position that you think I’d be good for. I’ve always wanted to get in to your department, blah blah blah

    3. Girl friday*

      In a few years you may have better options, so, “Thank you.” is probably all you need to say. I think people are too wordy in general, myself.

  166. Emi.*

    I am applying to join my union today! I’ve been a BUE for over a year and finally felt like enough of a bum to print out the stupid form and give them a lousy nine bucks.

    Can they reject my application? Is that a thing?

    1. LQ*

      No, they want your $9. Especially after Janus. They won’t reject you. (At least I’ve never heard of it.)

    2. Thlayli*

      It’s just $9? The union at my workplace is €250 a year. One of the many reasons I will not join them.

  167. Gelliebean*

    What is an appropriate way to thank someone without the appearance of impropriety?

    I have an acquaintance who sent me a job posting at their workplace and has been incredibly supportive in helping me tailor my resume, giving me encouragement, sending a recommendation to the hiring manager, and has offered to do mock interviews with me if I get contacted.

    Obviously if I don’t get the job, I can take them out for lunch as a thank-you with no worries about how it might look. But if I do end up being hired by the same workplace that they’re at, what would be the best course?

    1. poweringthrough*

      I think that if you end up getting the job, there shouldn’t be a problem with taking them out to lunch anyway! If you were friends before you got the job, then I don’t see why it would be improper. If anyone were to ask, you have a simple and honest answer: you’re celebrating getting this job with an old friend!

  168. poweringthrough*

    I posted last week on the open thread about my dilemma with giving notice while my toxic boss is away on vacation. I have a happy update – I got called for a second and final interview, AND the interviewer is on holiday so it looks like that will push the anticipated offer to when my boss is back! so hooray for that! now I just have to worry about doing well in the interview, and not about giving my notice. thank you to everyone who responded and wished me luck and told me I shouldn’t worry about causing him grief; you were all right and upon some reflecting I know it’s all his fault, not mine. thanks again!!

  169. YetAnotherFed*

    So last quarter I was assigned to a manager who was new to me and a team lead (who has the authority to sign off on certain parts of my work). So far I am not happy with working for either of them, as 1) my supervisor was partially responsible for me missing a time deadline which messed up my time management scores and 2) I feel that I am constantly getting second-guessed and overruled by my supervisor and the team lead, which is messing up my production and time management quotas, and also messing up my confidence in my work product which in turn messes up my production and time management quotas. In theory I can go work outside the government but in practice I’m over 40 and don’t have exactly the correct degrees that the private sector employers want. Should I grit my teeth and try to get myself into a position for promotion (and if I pass the promotion hazing/evaluation process I would not have to have either of them sign off on my work anymore) or should I start sending out resumes?

    1. Gelliebean*

      It would make sense to do both – hedge your bets. You might get a promotion, or you might get a new position; or you might get a promotion that boosts your chances of getting an outside position.

      1. YetAnother*

        The promotion wouldn’t necessarily increase my chances of getting a job out in the private sector, but it wouldn’t hurt either. However, at my level the promotion isn’t guaranteed as I have to run the gauntlet of the evaluation process (and I also do not think that my new supervisor will have my back during the evaluation process). Going to another federal agency would be a possibility

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      As another fed here working for an agency with a really Byzantine promotion system, I have to ask you this: how much sway does your Team Lead (TL) have with respect to your manager’s inputs on your performance appraisal? If it’s a lot, I’m thinking you really don’t stand a chance at promotion in your current shop, because neither your manager or TL is going to supply the kind of written appraisal support you’ll need to get to the next level.

      I don’t know if this is an option for you, but if things are as bad as you paint them, then you might consider a short-term (say, 6 months, or even a year?) rotational assignment to get you out of your current office and into another shop that will give you more of the skills you want to develop to be competitive for promotion *at another agency.* This has the added benefit of giving you some temporary “cover” to look for, and apply for, other government jobs without having to deal with your old shop’s leadership chain. Ultimately, I think you’re going to have go somewhere else to get promoted. Good luck.

      1. YetAnotherFed*

        I don’t think that the team lead would have much official say on the promotion process. The promotion gauntlet for my next GS level involves an anonymous committee of about 6 supervisor-level people reviewing a sampling of certain aspects of my work, with my current supervisor _not_ being on that committee. However, my current supervisor would be the first person responding to the committee’s evaluation, and then I get a chance to respond after his input . Unfortunately the committee would know who I am and who my supervisor is, so it’s not a blind grading system, which in my opinion brings into play both issues of prejudice/bias against me in person and prejudice/bias against me for who my supervisor is.

        If I can get all my ducks in a row to be eligible for the promotion, I would also be eligible to apply for a detail/rotation to a different part of my current agency, which would at the very least be a good palate cleanser.

  170. SusieQ*

    Hi, is anyone else always disappointed to realize it’s Friday and you won’t see any new letters until Monday? I squeeze time in during the week to read the posts and look forward to having more time to relax and read the letters on the weekend, but then realize it’s only the open threads no offense to anyone here, but I SO enjoy the letters that the open thread is always a big let down. I have tried not reading during the week and letting them pile up for reading on the weekend, but doesn’t work cause it’s my way of relaxing when stressed about work! I’ve read almost every post in the archives also, so that’s not an option. Anyone else???

    1. Overeducated*

      I’m the opposite, i love the open threads! The material just keeps growing, and i like seeing updates from regular posters.

    2. Forking Great Username*

      I often use the “surprise me” feature because I feel like this too and wonder if there’s anything in the archives I missed! Although occasionally I forget I’m looking at an old post and leave a comment, which is embarrassing, haha.

  171. CH teacher*

    I’ve been applying for teaching jobs (Montessori, if it matters) and a month ago I applied to my local school. I followed up a week later but never heard anything. My mom is friends with someone else who works at the school, who says the jobs are still open. Mum claims I should email my resume and a mildly revised cover letter to her friend to bring in to the hiring director. Even though it has been a month without any contact, I’m worried this will look annoying to the hiring director, not remind her that I’m an awesome applicant like my mom seems to think. Thoughts?

    1. Mary Smith*

      I don’t see anything wrong with sending it. You could include a note in with it saying “Thanks for helping me get this in front of the right people. I’m so passionate about the Montessori mission and really would like to join the team”

    2. Forking Great Username*

      As someone also applying for education jobs, I would NOT do this. The thought running through my mind as I read this was basically “noooooo!” If the job is still open, that probably just means that they haven’t gotten a chance to go through all of the applications yet, and having another person send yours in when you already applied could come across as pushy/odd. If you’re in the US, it’s likely the school is either in a super busy time wrapping things up or has people involved in the hiring process that are on vacation. I know it’s super hard to just wait, but I think you have to. If anything, maybe your mom’s friend could tell the hiring manager she knows someone who applied, then tell her your name and that you’re someone she would recommend. But I think anything more than that risks annoying them.

      1. School Psych*

        I’m also in education and I wouldn’t do this. (Assuming this a paper application that you’ve already followed up on). If your mom’s friend has a connection to the hiring manager, they can just mention you applied and to look for your application. However, if you applied using an on-line applitrak type system, revising your cover letter or other application materials slightly and hitting resubmit is commonly done and would not be seen as weird or pushy. A lot of people submit on-line apps for school jobs multiple times to try to make it more likely they’ll match up with the keywords that are being screened for. Some administrators will also look at the more recent applications first, so you might be more likely to get called in for an interview if you have a more recently submitted on-line application.

  172. Paquita*

    I did apply for the internal position I posted about last week. Handed the paperwork to my supervisor on my way out. She came back to me the next day and asked me to fix a typo. Did her part, sent it to HR and wished me luck. Not a word about why I was looking to move to another area.

  173. Lisa Simpson*

    How do you all put a job promotion on your Resume/LinkedIn that doesn’t really come with new responsibilities? Long-term, I’ll have new accomplishments I can put there, but this promotion is more of a “we’re catching your title up to what you’ve evolved your job into” promotion than a “you have new stuff to do” promotion. Do I just not list any bullet points until then?

    1. H.C.*

      I usually wait until I’m in the new position for a while (6 months – a year) and then update with accomplishments in that promoted role.

  174. SewAnxious*

    omg you guys
    I was just offered – and accepted – a great job offer for an admin position, similar to my current job, but better benefits/pay. My current boss gave a pretty standard counter offer, but I was not interested. Frankly I am desperate for a change in my life! but then they counter with something damn good. move into a totally different department, away from the customer service admin & fast track my training in the tech. it’s awesome &really what I wanted to do when I got out of school. it might be my dream job. but i’m a little worried that it’s just a lofty impractical idea. am I just a total monster if I backtrack that acceptance to take a chance on a whole new career path?
    I am still nearly a month out from my scheduled start date, so it’s not last minute. but I do feel awful about this. but maybe I’m just being ridiculous & should stick with a sure thing?

    1. Beatrice*

      Why were you job hunting in the first place? Does the counteroffer give you what you need to stay for a good long while? How do you feel about the fact that this opportunity wasn’t on the table until you made plans to leave? How good is your company at following through on their plans? What are the odds that it’ll fade into less than what you’re hoping for and more of what you’re trying to get away from?

      If it fits your need for change better than the outside offer, maybe it’s a good thing. You’re not a monster if you rescind your acceptance of the offer, you just need to realize that you’re probably burning a bridge.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        How do you feel about the fact that this opportunity wasn’t on the table until you made plans to leave?

        This is the big one to me.

        Also, is this counter in writing? Or is it an intention, and “and other duties as assigned” might land you back where you are?

        1. SewAnxious*

          it is in writing. there’s a timeframe given for training a replacement, which worries me a bit that things could stall out there. but I do feel that training a replacement is still a more than fair trade for the additional skills that I would then be trained in.
          but, yeah. there is just this bit that makes it feel like it’s too good to be true & I’ll just be stuck here.

      2. SewAnxious*

        I was hunting because it’s just grown stale. I’m bored & I need to make a change, and I was willing to take any change.
        I am hurt that this wasn’t on offer before. Especially since my manager admitted she could see I wasn’t happy in my position. They had tried for years to have this very strict structure, which was what prevented me from moving to this position before. but lately, they’ve relaxed it a lot & have been setting quite a few employees up to move departments like this. so I wonder if they’ve learned a bit of flexibility works in their favor?
        I worry about burning that bridge, though. it’s a small industry. but then again, I had also been thinking that maybe I just need to leave the industry altogether.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I’m always leery of any big career changes made at gunpoint – i.e., a big raise, big promotion, total career change that’s thrown at you because *gasp* SewAnxious is leaving, omg, what can we do to get her to stay?

          In reality, if you were that good before, why does it have to take the specter of you walking out the door to reward your good efforts? If it wasn’t a priority when you were just toodling along, why all of a sudden do they have the flexibility to do it now?

          And in a smaller, petty way, it can be perceived that you obtained that raise/promotion/career path by putting the company over a barrel (by “threatening” to leave, even though you had full intention to do so) and it might be a factor in any future raises or promotions.

          This happened to my husband more than once over the years, and one manager admitted the reason he’d gotten no more raises was “Because of that bull***t you pulled when you said you had another job.” Which was true – he DID have another job already lined up, but freaked out and threw a bunch of money (think $15k a year) and promotion along with new responsibilities and better title at him to get him to stay. He did, much to his regret, because his boss never missed a chance to let him know how annoyed he was that he had to “resort to such measures” to get him to stay. The word “loyalty” was thrown around a lot, too. /eyeroll

          I was more annoyed that they’d been apparently underpaying him by $15k a year and holding back a promotion and responsibilities…and it took my husband actually getting another job offer in hand before they woke up and went JEEZ WE REALLY NEED THIS GUY…only to then punish him for it before he ultimately left for good. (And they actually tried the big money/yet another promotion/more responsibilities tactic again on him, but he learned his lesson, gave his three weeks, and got the heck outta there.)

          1. Kat in VA*

            Apologies, instead of saying “…get her to stay?”, I should have typed “…get them to stay?” I didn’t mean to assign or assume gender.

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            That’s thrown at you because *gasp* SewAnxious is leaving, omg, what can we do to get her to stay?

            This very much puts me in mind of Alison’s rule about people who accept counter offers being gone in a year. The company scrambled to keep them, but feels bitter about it.

            Definitely not to say that no one has ever accepted a counter offer and had things work out. But if the only reason all the things they knew you wanted are suddenly on the table is that you have finally followed through on finding those things something else, I’d expect that dynamic to recur soon.

          3. SewAnxious*

            Yes, this is exactly what makes me nervous.
            I know that the primary reason it was never offered before is that my direct manager isn’t great at confrontation. They admitted they could see I was unhappy in the job, but made no move to discuss the issue with me in order to find a solution.
            But I worry that if I pass, this opportunity will never come up again. And even if it’s a bad environment in the long run, is it worth it to gain those skills for me resume?

            1. Beatrice*

              That’s for you to decide! Maybe it is! And maybe, even if it doesn’t last, it’ll put you in a better position for your next job hunt, to seek out the kind of job you’re ultimately looking to move into. Nobody here can tell you that accepting the counter offer is the wrong move, we’re just trying to help you consider it carefully and see the whole picture. Best of luck to you, whichever way you go.

  175. Serious Pillowfight*

    I had written recently about wondering if a certain salary was OK to ask for during negotiations if I was offered the position I applied for at a company where two of my (work) friends now work. Got some great advice, but turns out all of it was moot–I received a nice little rejection letter in my mailbox last Saturday! I guess it’s good that they at least didn’t ghost me, but I was really disappointed.

    My two friends were surprised, and one said as far as he knew, no one had been hired for that position. So I guess they really didn’t want me! I suspect they wanted someone right out of college because of the pay, even though I think I did all I could to reassure them that I was coming from a very low paying industry and their salary range was not an issue.

    I can’t help but wonder what went wrong. I know they did reference, background, and credit checks. I don’t think they’d find anything that would be an issue, but I would love to know what happened. At what point did they decide, “Nope, we don’t want her.”? If it was during or right after the interview, why did they bother checking my references and credit? And if they haven’t even hired anyone yet, why wouldn’t they at least keep me as an option in case their first choice didn’t work out? The rejection was pretty final. Not even any fluff about applying in the future for other job openings. I would love to know what qualifications I supposedly lacked (wording from the form letter).

    I guess I’m stuck at my current job for the time being–I love the work and the people, but as I wrote about in recent Friday threads, I learned my male colleague makes more for the same job, and when my boss tried to get the powers that be to match our salaries, he got a BS line about how I had “different experience.” I was also going to move to a daytime position but the same powers that be expected me to take a pay cut and wouldn’t even match my current salary.

    Beyond frustrating. Trying to be grateful for what I do have and not dwell on what I don’t. This site has been a huge help.

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        I suppose I could, but I suspect I wouldn’t get anywhere. Who knows if they’d even tell me the real reason. Plus if it’s something I disagree with or some silly technicality, it’ll probably drive me even more crazy. Maybe my friends will find out and share it with me, but I didn’t ask them to because I didn’t want to put them in an awkward position.

    2. H.C.*

      AAM & commenters has talked about this multiple times – a rejection doesn’t necessarily mean there’s anything wrong with you as a candidate, it means they found someone else who’s stronger or a better fit. It’s like that analogy of not getting eaten by a bear (you don’t have to outrun the bear, just another person) but reverse.

      And if they’ve gone through the trouble to spend resources to do reference/credit/background checks, it probably means you’re pretty far along & likely one of the finalists for the position. Hopefully you can take some solace in that as you apply for other openings (and who knows, maybe there’ll be another one with this one that you’ll be a good fit for.)

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        True. I guess what really bugged me was that they haven’t even filled the position, at least from what my friend working there knows, so it appears that I was rejected based on my own abilities instead of someone better having been selected.

      2. A Username*

        Someone who’s a “better fit” may not be stronger in a concrete sense, either. One boss I had passed over qualified female candidates because she preferred to hire male candidates. This happened twice, the first unqualified male candidate got fired after 60 days so she again passed over qualified female candidates to hire a second unqualified male candidate who got fired after 10 months.

        I’ve seen weak internal candidates favored over strong external ones, weak young candidates favored over strong older candidates, poor candidates who were willing to work for low pay and labor law violations favored over professionals who knew better than to tolerate that garbage. You may not be a “good fit” for whatever dysfunction is going on in their workplace, this does not mean you were not an objectively good candidate for the job duties.

    3. Kat in VA*

      I’m in the same boat. I’ve all but given up on trying to decipher the inscrutable inscrutabilities of HR/recruiters these days. When you’ve got a recruiter or HR rep who’s talking excitedly about “Can’t wait to have you join the team!” or “You’ll really going to enjoy working here!” and other such positive commentary, getting that rejection email or call out of the blue is SUCH a suckerpunch.

      1. Serious Pillowfight*

        Ugh. People in those positions really need to be careful of what they say and realize that job candidates are going to read into comments like that. No one led me on, but I figured having two of their valued employees vouch for me and being somewhat overqualified but still within or close to their salary range would give me a leg up. I wouldn’t say I blew anyone away during the interviews, but I thought I connected well with everyone. They all, except one, seemed overly concerned with what my salary expectation would be, and I thought I did well in reassuring them I wasn’t too expensive for them.

  176. Forking Great Username*

    I wish there was a site/person/resource out there where I could get real feedback on my resume, cover letter, and letters of recommendation. The job application process has me totally second guessing myself, but I know from this site that most places that will help you “fix” your resume just take your money and give bad advice. Any suggestions for this sort of thing?

    1. SewAnxious*

      I tried one of those services a few years back & their advice got me all of 0 interviews. I scrapped their advice & revised my resume again on my own, and got a lot more hits. it was good to have a fresh pair of eyes, but that was pretty much all they offered.
      do you have friends or family that can just take a look & give you their thoughts?

      1. Forking Great Username*

        I’ve had my mom take a look – she works in my field, but other than one or two nit picky grammatical that I changed at her recommendation, she thought it looked good. I’ve looked at the positive examples on here, read all of the advice, and I think they’re fairly strong. It’s just hard to not second guess yourself in the waiting for interviews stage!

        I had one professor who didn’t like my resume at all and suggested a ton of changes, mostly with formatting/layout. I changed some things at her advice, like moving my education and certification to the top above my experience, since in my field being certified is the most important thing. But other things she said I disregarded as probably old school advice – she was aghast that I didn’t have an objective, for example. And other nit picks about my formatting because the layout is more clean/modern than the old school style she said I should use. But she’s also never been responsible for hiring and hasn’t applied for a job in decades, so…yeah. Not sure about that one. I had other professors who loved the look of it, and heard from others who have jobs that they used a similar one. But everything makes me second guess.

        1. Julianne (also a teacher)*

          I sit on hiring committees in my department, and moving up your certification and education is the right call! I don’t care about objectives (I assume that if someone applies for a job in my department, their objective is to teach my subject…).

          Honestly, it might be your relative lack of experience that’s currently holding you back. I had less than 10 interviews my first year on the teaching job market (I’m struggling to remember the actual number, maybe as low as 5-6?), but when I was job hunting again after my first year of teaching, I had about 20 interviews (and kept getting contacted for more after I accepted my job). I know that doesn’t help you get more bites, but rest assured that it might not be because of anything you can control! I also didn’t get hired until mid-August my first year out (schools here start in late August or after Labor Day), and didn’t even have my initial phone screen at the school that hired me until after August 1.

  177. Tones*

    How does your office handle sick call-outs or people coming in late? What is your system?

    I’m in two work groups, one of which is mostly field personnel. Our supervisor wants the guys to call him when they are out, which they mostly do, but the notification often stops there. I’m more accessible that our supervisor and I am in the office most of the time so often times other staff comes to ask me if so-and-so is in the office or if they are coming in that day. I don’t think the solution is that they alert our supervisor and myself but I’m trying to come up with some suggestions for the supervisor.

    1. Llama Grooming Coordinator*

      Usually, employees are supposed to call their direct supervisor (usually the project manager for their assigned office) an hour in advance of any absence or delay. I’m fairly flexible (as in, I tell people I prefer my office phone, but text and email are accepted as well – my team doesn’t have company emails assigned but I do), but there have been times where I’ve had to put my foot down. (Don’t give your cellphone number out when you have a team of 50. People will routinely call out at 2 AM. To your personal number. Or they’ll call to ask if the office is open in advance of a snowstorm. At 2 AM. To your personal number. One thing I’ve learned is that just because I usually respect personal boundaries doesn’t mean other people do.)

      I’m actually pretty strict with that – one of my employees just called her friend to tell her to let me know she was being late. I let her off the hook this time but immediately gave her my contact information and told her she needed to let me or my co-manager know.

    2. Ron McDon*

      We have a whiteboard. People phone or text our manager, and she writes whether people are out for the morning, afternoon or whole day.

      So if you want to know who is out and when they’re back, it’s in one place.

  179. Recruited*

    What are your experiences with applying for jobs via recruiters?
    I’m finishing up grad school and moving back to my home country if possible, and all the jobs I am qualified for (think niche language skills) are advertised via recruiters. I have applied to several agencies to get matched, and they’re all super enthusiastic and want to talk to me right away, because I guess I’m a pretty good candidate.
    The problem is, I want to move to city X or somewhere close (my husband is waiting to hear from a job there, and he is really limited in location due to his even smaller niche), but so far every recruiter has been trying to talk me into taking a job in city Y. It seems like they have a big client there and want to impress them, so my explicit wish to be presented to the company in city X gets ignored or pushed back, and I’m afraid that job might be filled by someone else soon.
    One recruiter finally said she’d present me there, but the other agency is having several people contacting me “because I really wanted to try talking to you, the other people said you were so great” and pushing me to work in city Y, or just setting up pointless phone interviews, and I’m starting to feel like a circus freak a little.

    Another problem is that my husband isn’t guaranteed to get the job in city X, but I would have to accept before he knows. We initially agreed that this time, my career would be our priority (I moved for him before), but now he says he doesn’t want to do that anymore…

    1. Nacho*

      Waiting to hear from a job isn’t the same as having one. If city Y is reasonably large with carrier opportunities for your husband, I’d at least consider working there and asking Husband to find a job nearby, instead of moving to city Y on the chance that he gets a job there. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

      1. Recruited*

        There are no jobs my husband could do in or around city Y; his field is that specialized. If my dream job would open up there, I’d move there anyway, but right now, both the potential job in city X and the rest of the area (proximity to family, hobby opportunities) are much more what we want.
        Jobs in city Y (and city Z) are pretty much always open and would hire me gladly if my popularity (and friends with similar qualifications) with the recruiters is any indication.

        I’m more asking if this weird behavior from recruiters is normal?

  180. Sparkly Librarian*

    A bit of a rant; I guess I could use some reassurance that government bureaucracy will always take too long and be unnecessarily complicated.

    Two months ago I had a family issue where I needed to take a short leave of absence. My first day off was the deadline for submitting my timesheet for that pay period, so I coded the rest of the week for FML and submitted it (with HR approval). By the time the next pay period rolled around, things had changed such that my time off was no longer FMLA-eligible, so I had to submit a revision to have that time classified as unpaid leave instead. So I had been overpaid for 4 days. I expected the next paycheck after the revision to take that into account, and that it would be smaller than usual (a bit more than half the usual amount), but that didn’t happen.

    For 6 weeks I have been chasing this down with payroll staff, who A) would not have noticed if I hadn’t brought it up, B) let it go a week or more between each of my emails reminding them that this is a problem and asking for an update/next steps, and C) process things wrong so that I have to submit multiple revisions, including ones I’ve already submitted. And *every time* I have to check over what I was doing each day I left early or was out of work, to make sure the timesheet is accurate, I relive all the emotional trauma of the original crisis. It sucks! I’ve been as forthcoming as I can since the beginning, this started from an honest not-even-mistake, just a change in circumstance, and I am having to work so hard to get them to properly take back the money… that is THEIR job, not mine.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      If you see this, please loop your boss in. Explain that you have done this, that and the next thing. These are the responses you are getting etc. Ask your boss to step in here. This is ridiculous.

    2. Bella*

      Just chiming in to say the paperwork on UK government jobs can also be unnecessarily complicated. I never had anything this bad but getting hold of payroll was always a nightmare and most of our problems could have been solved by using plain english on payslips.

    3. CM*

      If I were you, I would put the money aside in a separate account, and then stop working to fix the problem. If they come back to you, you have the money available to pay them back if you need to.

  181. thewingmaster*

    Now that summer is here, who’s excited for summer Fridays? I’m excited for my 5-day weekend next week and for summer hours to kick in next week! That’s all.

  182. Jasper*

    I just wanted to gush about my new job! I’m really new here so most of you probably don’t remember, but about a month ago I posted about a confusing interview I had. Well, it did end up being a situation where they wanted my personality and trained me on the practical skills. I aced my audition, and now I’m a little bit of a rockstar already! I get very bored on my shift because it’s the slowest, but I come in two hours before the end of the busiest shift, and they love me and want me on their team! The bartenders on that shift praise me every time they see me, and one told me that if I put in a shift change request, she’ll give me rides to work since transportation is an issue for me. I’m really excited and I wanted to tell y’all about it! Thanks for encouraging me on my post about the interview, it really boosted my confidence and helped me get here.

  183. CatMintCat*

    I’m six months into my new job and still have flashbacks to just how bad the old workplace was. I have trust issues with my very nice new boss that I’m trying to work through. It can take a long time, I guess depending on how long the toxicity went on for and how personally bad it was for you.

    1. CatMintCat*

      This was meant to be a reply to something way above. Don’t know what went wrong.

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